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2 Corinthians 5:16So, from now on, we refuse to evaluate people merely by their outward appearances. For that's how we once viewed the Anointed One, but no longer do we see him with limited human insight.

Joshua 8The Fall of Ai1And the Lord said to Joshua, “Do not fear and do not be dismayed. Take all the fighting men with you, and arise, go up to Ai. See, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, and his people, his city, and his land. 2And you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and its livestock you shall take as plunder for yourselves. Lay an ambush against the city, behind it.”3So Joshua and all the fighting men arose to go up to Ai. And Joshua chose 30,000 mighty men of valor and sent them out by night. 4And he commanded them, “Behold, you shall lie in ambush against the city, behind it. Do not go very far from the city, but all of you remain ready. 5And I and all the people who are with me will approach the city. And when they come out against us just as before, we shall flee before them. 6And they will come out after us, until we have drawn them away from the city. For they will say, ‘They are fleeing from us, just as before.' So we will flee before them. 7Then you shall rise up from the ambush and seize the city, for the Lord your God will give it into your hand. 8And as soon as you have taken the city, you shall set the city on fire. You shall do according to the word of the Lord. See, I have commanded you.” 9So Joshua sent them out. And they went to the place of ambush and lay between Bethel and Ai, to the west of Ai, but Joshua spent that night among the people.10Joshua arose early in the morning and mustered the people and went up, he and the elders of Israel, before the people to Ai. 11And all the fighting men who were with him went up and drew near before the city and encamped on the north side of Ai, with a ravine between them and Ai. 12He took about 5,000 men and set them in ambush between Bethel and Ai, to the west of the city. 13So they stationed the forces, the main encampment that was north of the city and its rear guard west of the city. But Joshua spent that night in the valley. 14And as soon as the king of Ai saw this, he and all his people, the men of the city, hurried and went out early to the appointed place toward the Arabah to meet Israel in battle. But he did not know that there was an ambush against him behind the city. 15And Joshua and all Israel pretended to be beaten before them and fled in the direction of the wilderness. 16So all the people who were in the city were called together to pursue them, and as they pursued Joshua they were drawn away from the city. 17Not a man was left in Ai or Bethel who did not go out after Israel. They left the city open and pursued Israel.18Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Stretch out the javelin that is in your hand toward Ai, for I will give it into your hand.” And Joshua stretched out the javelin that was in his hand toward the city. 19And the men in the ambush rose quickly out of their place, and as soon as he had stretched out his hand, they ran and entered the city and captured it. And they hurried to set the city on fire. 20So when the men of Ai looked back, behold, the smoke of the city went up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that, for the people who fled to the wilderness turned back against the pursuers. 21And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had captured the city, and that the smoke of the city went up, then they turned back and struck down the men of Ai. 22And the others came out from the city against them, so they were in the midst of Israel, some on this side, and some on that side. And Israel struck them down, until there was left none that survived or escaped. 23But the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him near to Joshua.24When Israel had finished killing all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they pursued them, and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel returned to Ai and struck it down with the edge of the sword. 25And all who fell that day, both men and women, were 12,000, all the people of Ai.

1In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3All went to their own towns to be registered. 4Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. 5He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child.  6While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.  8In that region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9Then an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for see—I am bringing you good news of great joy for all the people: 11to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is the Messiah, the Lord.  12This will be a sign for you: you will find a child wrapped in bands of cloth and lying in a manger.” 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying,  14“Glory to God in the highest heaven,   and on earth peace among those whom he favors!”  15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go now to Bethlehem and see this thing that has taken place, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16So they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the child lying in the manger. 17When they saw this, they made known what had been told them about this child; 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds told them. 19But Mary treasured all these words and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them. 

Jesus Calling Pt. 7 – Puking the Lukewarm By Louie Marsh, 12-15-2024   Last slide – Super Barf Bag/   1) Jesus is the TRUTH & CREATOR of everything/   “14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.” (Revelation 3:14, ESV)   “15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.” (Colossians 1:15–18, ESV)   2) APATHY not allowed.   “15“ ‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.” (Revelation 3:15–16, ESV)   ·       What about the VOMIT?   Synonyms Strongest matches   Strong matches   Out of the 26 major English translations 13 say spit or spew, 13 say vomit. Of the 4 Literal translations 3 say vomit and one says spit.   Difference between spitting (with Mom story) and vomiting.   ·       Jesus wants COMMITMENT – either for or against Him.   “30Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matthew 12:30, ESV)   3) Don't mistake prosperity with spiritual MATURITY.   “17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.” (Revelation 3:17–18, ESV)   ·       Things going well don't necessarily mean you are CLOSE to God.   “1“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.” (Isaiah 55:1, ESV)   “19And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.” ' 20But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”” (Luke 12:19–21, ESV)   4) Jesus rebukes me because He LOVES  ME.   “19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” (Revelation 3:19–20, ESV)   “6For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”” (Hebrews 12:6, ESV)   5) SHARING Jesus' throne – the ultimate way to be like Jesus.   “21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' ”” (Revelation 3:21–22, ESV)                    

Nineteenth Sunday after Pentecost The Collect: O God, you declare your almighty power chiefly in showing mercy and pity: Grant us the fullness of your grace, that we, running to obtain your promises, may become partakers of your heavenly treasure; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Old Testament: Numbers 11:4-6,10-16,24-29 4The rabble among them had a strong craving; and the Israelites also wept again, and said, “If only we had meat to eat! 5We remember the fish we used to eat in Egypt for nothing, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; 6but now our strength is dried up, and there is nothing at all but this manna to look at.” 10Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, all at the entrances of their tents. Then the Lord became very angry, and Moses was displeased. 11So Moses said to the Lord, “Why have you treated your servant so badly? Why have I not found favor in your sight, that you lay the burden of all this people on me? 12Did I conceive all this people? Did I give birth to them, that you should say to me, ‘Carry them in your bosom, as a nurse carries a sucking child,' to the land that you promised on oath to their ancestors? 13Where am I to get meat to give to all this people? For they come weeping to me and say, ‘Give us meat to eat!' 14I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me. 15If this is the way you are going to treat me, put me to death at once—if I have found favor in your sight—and do not let me see my misery.” 16So the Lord said to Moses, “Gather for me seventy of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tent of meeting, and have them take their place there with you. 24So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord; and he gathered seventy elders of the people, and placed them all around the tent. 25Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders; and when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do so again. 26Two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the spirit rested on them; they were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. 27And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” 28And Joshua son of Nun, the assistant of Moses, one of his chosen men, said, “My lord Moses, stop them!” 29But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit on them!” Psalm: Psalm 19:7-14 7 The law of the Lord is perfect                               and revives the soul; *        the testimony of the Lord is sure                               and gives wisdom to the innocent. 8 The statutes of the Lord are just                               and rejoice the heart; *        the commandment of the Lord is clear                               and gives light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is clean                               and endures for ever; *        the judgments of the Lord are true                               and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold,                               more than much fine gold, *        sweeter far than honey,                               than honey in the comb. 11 By them also is your servant enlightened, *        and in keeping them there is great reward. 12 Who can tell how often he offends? *        cleanse me from my secret faults. 13 Above all, keep your servant from presumptuous sins;    let them not get dominion over me; *        then shall I be whole and sound,        and innocent of a great offense. 14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my                               heart be acceptable in your sight, *        O Lord, my strength and my redeemer. Epistle: James 5:13-20 13Are any among you suffering? They should pray. Are any cheerful? They should sing songs of praise. 14Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest. 19My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, 20you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner's soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. Gospel: Mark 9:38-50 38John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.”39But Jesus said, “Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40Whoever is not against us is for us. 41For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward. 42“If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, 48where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. 49“For everyone will be salted with fire. 50Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Third Sunday after Pentecost Feast of St. Columba's The Collect:  O God, from whom all good proceeds: Grant that by your inspiration we may think those things that are right, and by your merciful guiding may do them; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Old Testament: 1 Samuel 8:4-11, (12-15), 16-20, (11:14-15) 4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5and said to him, “You are old and your sons do not follow in your ways; appoint for us, then, a king to govern us, like other nations.” 6But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to govern us.” Samuel prayed to the Lord, 7and the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 8Just as they have done to me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so also they are doing to you. 9Now then, listen to their voice; only—you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.” 10So Samuel reported all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen, and to run before his chariots; [12and he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his courtiers.] 15He will take one-tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and his courtiers. 16He will take your male and female slaves, and the best of your cattle and donkeys, and put them to his work. 17He will take one-tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves; but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”19But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; they said, “No! but we are determined to have a king over us, 20so that we also may be like other nations, and that our king may govern us and go out before us and fight our battles.” [14Samuel said to the people, “Come, let us go to Gilgal and there renew the kingship.” 15So all the people went to Gilgal, and there they made Saul king before the Lord in Gilgal. There they sacrificed offerings of well-being before the Lord, and there Saul and all the Israelites rejoiced greatly.] Psalm: Psalm 138 1 I will give thanks to you, O Lord, with my whole heart; *        before the gods I will sing your praise. 2 I will bow down toward your holy temple    and praise your Name, *        because of your love and faithfulness; 3 For you have glorified your Name *        and your word above all things. 4 When I called, you answered me; *        you increased my strength within me. 5 All the kings of the earth will praise you, O Lord, *        when they have heard the words of your mouth. 6 They will sing of the ways of the Lord, *        that great is the glory of the Lord. 7 Though the Lord be high, he cares for the lowly; *        he perceives the haughty from afar. 8 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you keep me safe; *        you stretch forth your hand against the fury of my enemies;        your right hand shall save me. 9 The Lord will make good his purpose for me; *        O Lord, your love endures for ever;        do not abandon the works of your hands. Old Testament: Genesis 3:8-15 8They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”10He said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.” 11He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.” 13Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.” 14The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.” Psalm: Psalm 130 1 Out of the depths have I called to you, O Lord;    Lord, hear my voice; *        let your ears consider well the voice of my supplication. 2 If you, Lord, were to note what is done amiss, *        O Lord, who could stand? 3 For there is forgiveness with you; *        therefore you shall be feared. 4 I wait for the Lord; my soul waits for him; *        in his word is my hope. 5 My soul waits for the Lord,    more than watchmen for the morning, *        more than watchmen for the morning. 6 O Israel, wait for the Lord, *        for with the Lord there is mercy; 7 With him there is plenteous redemption, *        and he shall redeem Israel from all their sins. Epistle: 2 Corinthians 4:13-5:1 13But just as we have the same spirit of faith that is in accordance with scripture—“I believed, and so I spoke” —we also believe, and so we speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus, and will bring us with you into his presence.15Yes, everything is for your sake, so that grace, as it extends to more and more people, may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. 16So we do not lose heart. Even though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. 17For this slight momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all measure, 18because we look not at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal. 1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Gospel: Mark 3:20-35 20and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat.21When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, “He has gone out of his mind.” 22And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.” 23And he called them to him, and spoke to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but his end has come. 27But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his property without first tying up the strong man; then indeed the house can be plundered. 28“Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30for they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.” 31Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him. 32A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you.” 33And he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34And looking at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

Fifth Sunday of Easter The Collect: Almighty God, whom truly to know is everlasting life: Grant us so perfectly to know your Son Jesus Christ to be the way, the truth, and the life, that we may steadfastly follow his steps in the way that leads to eternal life; through Jesus Christ your Son our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. First Lesson: Acts 8:26-40 26Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a wilderness road.) 27So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.29Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to this chariot and join it.” 30So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. 32Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and like a lamb silent before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth.” 34The eunuch asked Philip, “About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture, he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus. 36As they were going along the road, they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” 38He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he was passing through the region, he proclaimed the good news to all the towns until he came to Caesarea. Psalm: Psalm 22:24-30 24 My praise is of him in the great assembly; *        I will perform my vows in the presence of those who worship him. 25 The poor shall eat and be satisfied,    and those who seek the Lord shall praise him: *       “May your heart live for ever!” 26 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, *        and all the families of the nations shall bow before him. 27 For kingship belongs to the Lord; *        he rules over the nations. 28 To him alone all who sleep in the earth bow down in worship; *        all who go down to the dust fall before him. 29 My soul shall live for him;    my descendants shall serve him; *        they shall be known as the Lord'S for ever. 30 They shall come and make known to a people yet unborn *        the saving deeds that he has done. Epistle: 1 John 4:7-21 7Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. 15God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. 16So we have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. 17Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world.18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. 19We love because he first loved us. 20Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. 21The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also. Gospel: John 15:1-8 1”I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. 2He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. 3You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.

Ordinary Christians in extra ordinary times - By Pastor George Lehman What the world needs is NOT more Christianity but more Christians who practice Christianity. We cannot live ordinary lives anymore! Here Jesus is speaking to the scribes an Pharisees: Mark 7:13 – Jesus said, “Tradition destroys the effect of the Word”. We become comfortable with traditionally doing church and spiritual things, We go through the motions in a way that's marked with ordinary and don't by faith - rise up to an extra ordinary life. A life touched by Jesus cannot be the same. Story of a statue in a cemetery in America: It was not a statue of a man, angel, or Mary, but a statue of a dog.  They say when his master was buried.  The dog followed the procession to the graveyard, and he lay on the grave and wouldn't leave until he died.  They put up a memorial next to his master because he demonstrated extraordinary loyalty. Here's a story of extra ordinary loyalty: 2 Samuel 15:13-21 (Amp) - 13And there came a messenger to David, saying, the hearts of the men of Israel have gone after Absalom.  14David said to all his servants who were with him at Jerusalem, Arise and let us flee, or else none of us will escape from Absalom. Make haste to depart, lest he overtake us suddenly and bring evil upon us and smite the city with the sword.  15And the king's servants said to the king, Behold, your servants are ready to do whatever my lord the king says.  16So, the king and all his household after him went forth. But he left ten women who were concubines to keep the house.  17The king went forth with all the people after him and halted at the last house.  18All David's servants passed on beside him, along with [his bodyguards] all the Cherethites, Pelethites; also all the Gittites, 600 men who came after him from Gath, passed on before the king.  19The king said to Ittai the Gittite, why do you go with us also? Return to your place and remain with the king [Absalom], for you are a foreigner and an exile.  20Since you came only yesterday, should I make you go up and down with us? Since I must go where I may, you return, and take back your brethren with you. May loving-kindness and faithfulness be with you.  21But Ittai answered the king, As the Lord lives, and as my lord the king lives, wherever my lord the king shall be, whether for death or life, even there also will your servant be.  What an extra ordinary dedication to serve his King, “no matter what”. Paul writing to the church in Corinth: (over a period of time ordinary will become lukewarm / backslidden) 1 Corinthians 3:3 (Amp) - For you are still [unspiritual, having the nature] of the flesh [under the control of ordinary impulses]. For as long as [there are] envying and jealousy and wrangling* (stryery) and factions among you, are you not unspiritual and of the flesh, behaving yourselves after a human standard and like mere (unchanged) men? (Clearly by this message it's clear that Paul is talking about an Extra Ordinary life!) Our ordinary should be Extra Ordinary. The Moffett's translation says:  “Are you behaving like ordinary people?” Why did God allow these disciplining correcting verses in the Bible?  “It was for our good so we can change and serve Him correctly. To live an extra ordinary life. We have come to a time in the history of the world when, for those of us who are Christians it's not acceptable it's a sin to live ordinary. It's no longer enough to live nominal (not real) lives in a time of phenomenal need. Acts 17:30 -31a(Amp) – 30Such [former] ages of ignorance God, it is true, ignored and allowed to pass unnoticed; but now He charges all people every where to repent (to change their minds for the better and heartily to amend their ways with abhorrence of their past sins). 31Because He has fixed a day when He will judge the world. The words of Josiah G. Holland:  God give us men!  A time like this demands great hearts, strong minds, and willing hands. (Simply – Extra ordinary Christians) It's not enough that we just be “ordinary people”.  This is what Paul was addressing in our scripture – there were ordinary Christians of that day! The gospel would never have been launched if it wasn't for a multitude of extraordinary christians. People who were committed in an extra ordinary way to a truly extra ordinary gospel. It's no different.  Today we serve the same reigning God; have the same powerful anointing an extra ordinary gospel; the same challenges in a needy world. That's why we need to rise above the ordinary, basic, empty, ineffective life and live extra ordinary lives. My greatest desire is to see this church rise up and live extra ordinary Christianity. Serving – going the extra mile. Giving God our reasonable service. Living committed Holy, effective lives – building unity. Being salt and light to a dying world – saying NO to ordinary Christianity. This means we will first of all have to have... Extra ordinary faith. How do you make ordinary extra ordinary – you add a little extra.  Fighting the good fight of the faith. We must believe the “But God” factor in our lives.  It's knowing and being motivated that God is near and will not forsake us. Extra ordinary faith knows “The Lord is my shepherd” and “we shall not want”. Take a faith step and attempt something extra ordinary in an extra ordinary way. We also need... 2: Extra ordinary conduct. Philippians 1:27 (Amp) - Only be sure as citizens so to CONDUCT yourselves (that) your manner of life (will be) WORTHY of the good news (the gospel) of Christ... As someone has said:  The world at its worst needs the church at its best. Jesus asked a very pointed question of His disciples – which can be asked of us...Matthew 5:47(Amp) - “... what more than others are you doing?” Are you behaving like ordinary people? We are not saved to stagnate.  We are saved to serve in an EXTRA-Ordinary way. It's not what you say with your lips that count.  It's what you do with your life that matters. In these extra ordinary times, the WORLD is much more concerned with our extra ordinary demonstration of the Christian life than it is with our declaration of the Christian truth. Demonstration beats declaration every time.   The question is: Have you been saying one thing with your lips and another with your life? Does your life encourage people or discourage people? NB: All souls are of equal WORTH to God, but not all souls are of equal USE to God. How about you?  Will you rise to the challenge?  Will you contribute to that uncommon conduct the world needs so desperately today? Conduct: Personal behaviour; living with God's standards. A young Chinese communist (Christian) stood before the firing squad of Chinese soldiers.  As the captain gave the order to aim, the girl cried out, “I'm dying for a cause!!  What are you living for??” (What is your contribution?)   Have you chosen “ordinary” or “extra ordinary”? Colossians 1:10 (Amp) - That you may walk (live and conduct yourselves in a [extra ordinary] manner) worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him and desiring to please Him in ALL THINGS, bearing fruit in every good work and steadily growing and increasing in and by knowledge of God (with fuller, deeper and clearer insight, acquaintance and recognition. Will you like Ittai, say “I will follow you “no matter what”?

1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to their own town to register. 4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them. 8And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, 14“Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favour rests.” 15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.” 16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q_mnc9rK84jJ-sycDSULYfFc8CNwZ3No/view?usp=drive_link

Gina Livy's Facebook Lives from The Livy Method Fall 2023 Support Group hosted on Facebook. This is a recording of the Day 57, 9 AM live. You can find the full video hosted at:https://www.facebook.com/groups/livymethodfall2023Topics covered:The time you have is the time you have: 91 days may be longer for some members and that's okay! @ IntroRepeating the program is a way to keep levelling up your health and wellness progress. @ 2:06The tweaks are designed to help you get more in tune with hunger, food issues, and your feelings. @ 3:50Our vibe attracts our tribe! @ 4:48The Livy Method is about losing your weight, maintaining it, and living your life! @ 6:17There are so many reasons why we may be self-sabotaging. Check out the Part 2 post this week! @ 7:30It's cold and flu season! The sickness protocol is your friend! @ 8:15Festering in your funk? Try the 3 C's and Capture, Cancel, and Correct your negative thoughts! @ 9:16So many reasons why your weight may be up and it's still not real weight gain. @ 10:15What you say matters! Listen to yourself and correct your verbiage. @ 11:18At this point of The Program, it's time to bring all the things together and get the results you came for. @ 13:06Have a question or need support? Use the Facebook Support group & Daily Check in Post as a tool! @ 14:20What you really need are words of action, not words of wisdom. @ 17:18Non-scale victories will change over time and multiple programs. They evolve as you do! @ 19:12Struggling to stay positive? Be investigative and figure out what's going on for you and why. @ 22:18If you're not all-in, you're just here. @ 25:35You're allowed to hate the process but turn up the volume on what it is and why you hate it. @ 28:17How food can be a love language among spouses and families. @ 29:15You can feel whatever you need to. Honour your feelings and still do the hard work. @ 32:55Falling into old habits? Here's what may be going on. @ 34:43Are you doing the things you can be doing to manage and cope with stress as well as you can? @ 35:51Hungry? So many reasons at this point why you may be noticing feelings of hunger. @ 38:04Getting in tune with your body and prioritizing yourself asks of us to reframe our focus. @ 38:45The holidays can bring waves of stress and pressure. Here's what you can do to be prepared. @ 41:05Yes! Your skin will rejuvenate around your new frame. @ 42:30It's Week 8 and there is still a lot of time to lose weight and finish strong! @ 44:00Returning from time off the program? Reach out in the Facebook Support Group for some support! @ 45:07To learn more about the Livy Method, visit www.ginalivy.com. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

God Is Forcing Us to Choose A Side, but not just in regards to Israel and Hamas, in regards to all the issues facing the world today. Christ said: “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.” Luke 12:51 Christ warned us that in the last days we would be divided amongst ourselves. There is no more middle ground, no longer are you safe as a "Independent." In these last days you have to choose a side: “15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm— neither hot nor cold— I am about to vomit you out of My mouth! “ Revelation 3:15-16 I made this message with the intentions on explaining to you, just how you are to go about choosing a side, but of course in normal "Leo Dunson Fashion," I went on many rants. Nonetheless, I intended tell convey that we are to examine every issue and situation under the lens of Gods laws. For the bible says that Gods Laws, his statutes and commandments are "The Truth:" ""Thy law is the truth." Psalm 119:142 The bible explains to us that many in these last days are under strong delusion and will perish because they refuse to adhere too "The Truth:" “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 In regards to the daily hot topics and controversies examine them under the microscope of Gods Laws. Then you will know if you are following after the truth or the lies and evil wicked patterns of this world. Send a Tithe, Donation, and/or Offerings at: https://leodunson.com/donate/Cash App $LeoDunson - https://Cash.App/$LeoDunsonBecome a Member! - https://ministries.leodunson.com/checkout/subscribe “Gods Laws, Commandments, & Statutes” (Book): https://tinyurl.com/33j95pbc“Precept Upon Precept” (Book) on Amazon at: https://tinyurl.com/z2uu46ez Subscribe to support Leo Dunson Ministries to gain access to "Exclusive Content" & Early Release videos: https://ministries.leodunson.com/checkout/subscribe Connect with Leo on https://www.facebook.com/LeoDunsonjrConnect with Leo on https://www.instagram.com/LeoDunsonConnect with Leo on https://tiktok.com/LeoDunson #LukeWarm #HotorCold #TruthorLie #Bible #Israelites #LeoDunson

CLICK HERE FOR LINK TO SERMON HANDOUT         Twenty-first Sunday after Pentecost Old Testament: Isaiah 45:1-7 1Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him— and the gates shall not be closed: 2I will go before you and level the mountains, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron, 3I will give you the treasures of darkness and riches hidden in secret places, so that you may know that it is I, the Lord, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.4For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I surname you, though you do not know me. 5I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me, 6so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. 7I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things. Psalm: Psalm 96:1-9, (10-13) 1 Sing to the Lord a new song; *        sing to the Lord, all the whole earth. 2 Sing to the Lord and bless his Name; *        proclaim the good news of his salvation from day to day. 3 Declare his glory among the nations *        and his wonders among all peoples. 4 For great is the Lord and greatly to be praised; *        he is more to be feared than all gods. 5 As for all the gods of the nations, they are but idols; *        but it is the Lord who made the heavens. 6 Oh, the majesty and magnificence of his presence! *        Oh, the power and the splendor of his sanctuary! 7 Ascribe to the Lord, you families of the peoples; *        ascribe to the Lord honor and power. 8 Ascribe to the Lord the honor due his Name; *        bring offerings and come into his courts. 9 Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness; *        let the whole earth tremble before him. 10 [Tell it out among the nations: “The Lord is King! *        he has made the world so firm that it cannot be moved;        he will judge the peoples with equity.” 11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad;    let the sea thunder and all that is in it; *        let the field be joyful and all that is therein. 12 Then shall all the trees of the wood shout for joy    before the Lord when he comes, *        when he comes to judge the earth. 13 He will judge the world with righteousness *        and the peoples with his truth.] Epistle: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-10 1Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly 3remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4For we know, brothers and sisters beloved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our message of the gospel came to you not in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of persons we proved to be among you for your sake. 6And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for in spite of persecution you received the word with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit,7so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith in God has become known, so that we have no need to speak about it. 9For the people of those regions report about us what kind of welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God,10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming. Gospel: Matthew 22:15-22 15Then the Pharisees went and plotted to entrap him in what he said.16So they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and teach the way of God in accordance with truth, and show deference to no one; for you do not regard people with partiality. 17Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?” 18But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? 19Show me the coin used for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. 20Then he said to them, “Whose head is this, and whose title?” 21They answered, “The emperor's.” Then he said to them, “Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's.”22When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.

In this episode we look at God who instituted the age of grace. We focus on his character of one who is full of graciousness. The God of grace. Psalm 84:11For the LORD God is a sun and a shield; the LORD gives grace and glory; He withholds no good thing from those who walk with integrity.2 Chronicles 30:9For the Lord your God is gracious and compassionate. He will not turn his face from you if you return to him.Nehemiah 9:31But in your great mercy you did not put an end to them or abandon them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.Isaiah 30:18Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show you compassion. For the Lord is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him!Numbers 6:24-26The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace.Psalm 103:8The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love.Joel 2:13Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.Zechariah 12:10Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.John 1:16-17Out of the fullness of his grace he has blessed us all, giving us one blessing after another. God gave the Law through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.Hebrews 4:16So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.Hebrews 10:29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?1 Corinthians 1:4I always thank my God for you because of the grace God has given you in Christ Jesus.James 1:17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.1 Peter 5:10And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/622a9079e8fb640012cb94f3. I pray that God would "give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18I, pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance" https://plus.acast.com/s/blueprint-of-faith. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Are You Lukewarm? Heed The Warning John Wrote! Revelation 3:15 - 16 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

1 John 4:16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Tim chats with resume specialist, career consultant, and speaker Claire Davis about her work at Traction Resume. She shares general tips on creating a resume or personal brand that reflects your authentic self and why you want to focus on your uniqueness rather than the overused buzzwords. Claire also describes the common mistakes people make when putting together their job applications and how to avoid them. Both Tim and Claire weigh in on the importance of finding your true self to advance your career. Whether you've been laid off, are looking for a promotion, or want to consider switching to consulting, you don't want to miss this episode!Further into the episode, Tim and Claire share their own moments of discovery when they realize they possess skills that put them in demand, regardless of what their name tag read. Claire explains how it often takes your colleagues, friends, or strangers to help you know your true value, skills, and uniqueness. Once you know those elements of yourself, you'll be in a better position for career success. You'll also want to listen for the surprisingly accurate casserole metaphor!About Claire DavisClaire Davis is an award-winning Medical Sales Resume Specialist, Career Consultant, and Speaker with 15+ years of experience. Claire help clients land great roles with dream companies by leveraging the sales techniques they already know to fuel their career advancement.Resources discussed in this episode:Louis Saulnier - Le Répertoire de la CuisineAugust Escoffier—Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Claire Davis | Traction Resume: WebsiteTwitterLinkedin—TranscriptClaire  0:01  What are those specific things that you're known for doing? What do people commonly compliment you on? Because probably that's something that people know you for. And you might not even have an opportunity to recognize that until you work with a resume writer or a coach, somebody who makes you stop and say, Oh, huh, that does sound a bit like a system I'm might have been using all along, and I didn't even recognize it.Tim 0:26  I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, or a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. This is the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 12.Tim 0:57  Thanks very much for joining us. We're having a good time here in the studio, I'm joined by my really good friend Claire. If you need to find her on LinkedIn, you're going to find her under Claire M. Davis at Traction Resume. But Claire, thank you so much for joining me today. I know it's a little short notice. But I am absolutely ecstatic, we were able to pull this together. Claire  1:16Oh, my goodness, me too, Tim, this is just our way, I don't know if anybody had the chance to catch Tim on my podcast last year. But you're an absolute gem, you have so much to share. And I think that now this will be our third impromptu podcast recording together. So I'm thrilled Tim  1:32We're getting up there. And if it's not our third, it will be soon. You know, it's funny that we come from such different angles professionally. You, of course, are helping people really get prepped to find their next best role and enhance their careers. And while I do the same thing, I come from a slightly different angle, and that is leadership, consulting and coaching. But we have a lot in common because the challenges that people are facing today are really similar. And there's some themes emerging. Wouldn't you say?Claire  2:02Yeah, I would say and you know, when I first started my business, and for anyone who we haven't met yet, I'm Claire Davis, and I run Traction Resume. So essentially what I do is work with professionals in the medical sales industry, and help them to come across as how brilliant they are in real life on paper. So, what I didn't recognize would be part of the role when I very first started this company, was that there would be so much coaching to help people to really foster what leadership and core morals look like for them. On the inside. I really thought, Tim, that it would be, hey, everybody kind of knows their Northstar. They've got their why down pat, they know what their their core drivers really are. And I get to just put that on paper. But a large part is finding out those things as well. So I am eternally grateful for specialized coaches like you, because you help people figure out that internal stuff, and then we put it on paper to share that with the world. Unknown Speaker  3:04  I mean, the more I work, and as I'm entering now, what I'm two and a half decades into doing work with leaders. And you know, I'm just convinced every day that fluency is at the heart of everything they have to know themselves before they can properly represent what they're ready to be out in the world. And if they can be that honest self, when they take the job, through the interview process, into taking the job and then with their teams. It's just so much easier. And it's so much more authentic. And it's the easiest way to build trust, because you don't have to put it on. It's you're just ready to do it all day every day. Because guess what, you don't have a choice. That's who you are in the wool. So I'm with you 100%. I mean, getting people to the point where they are ready to put it down on paper is such a big step. Claire 3:59It really is.Time 4:00Even if they're gonna stay where they're at. It's better to be dealing in reality, because otherwise the universe is going to give you a smack. Let's avoid that at all costs. Claire  4:08 Yeah. Tim 4:09Well, as we were getting ready to hit record here, we were talking about a couple of different things regarding personal brand. But I'd like to get your thoughts on, really what does that look like from an importance perspective, both in you know, medical sales, but also more generally, just for anybody that's in the middle of a career pivot. What does that look like on the outside? Claire 4:32 So back in 20—Oh, I'm going to date myself here about about 10-15 years ago, you know, I was entering into the workforce into my chosen field, which was, at the time, marketing. And I had come up in the ranks through my career from a pharma recruiting business with my parents. So, you know, the career conversation for me was always something that was very familiar. So the shock was that after my first job, which I had the degree for, I had been getting great results from my employer. The job comes along, it lasts about six months, and then I get laid off. And I was absolutely floored Tim, because learning how to interview from age 13, and being the only one coming up to the city volunteer job with a brag book, I really thought I had any kind of career snags, you know, completely wiped out. Right. So huge shock. So I get back into the field. The next job I have is where I enter into medical sales and absolutely love it, start doing well in the field, start getting great mentorship, falling in love with healthcare, and helping people with their health. And a year and a half later and get laid off again. And so the reason I'm sharing this story was fast forward, I did not realize until the third layoff, so another one after this, that people wanted to do business with me, not because of my product or service, but they actually wanted to do business with me, because of me. But I didn't recognize it that way until that next job comes along. And again, another layoff and I get this phone call, Tim, it was one weekend, I remember sitting in our little farmhouse out in Penryn, California at the time. And I get this call from the lab and the lab director says Claire, we are completely out of kits, we need to run this diagnostic test for this breast cancer patient. She she needs this stuff right away, can you help us? And I said, well, I mean, absolutely. But I mean, you know, I don't work for that company anymore. I'm more than happy to help you. But also, I know that I introduced you to your new rep. So I'm curious why, you know, also you reached out to me. And by this time, I already have the kid on the way. So I mean, it was help and then question. And my thought was, you know, he knows I'm not there anymore. But what is it about still wanting to work with me? And he said, well, Claire, we just know that wherever you're at, even if it's not the company where you used to work that you would help us. And I think that was the first time I recognize that me-ness that I had in my impact on other people. And it was the first time that I started to realize that I had value to offer, aside from what my nametag read. And aside from what Title I had business, and aside from what company and what product I was carrying in my bag. And so I think to your question, beginning to understand the value that we have, is the very first step. And I don't think that we often have the opportunity to do that, until maybe we take a retreat with the team, you know, a year and a half into our employment, or maybe just maybe we have an amazing leadership coach brought into the organization to start digging up some of those internal things. But for me, it was quite a surprise. So I'm actually curious, when did you start recognizing that it was going to take the internal work in the internal discovery to start bringing out the external results?Tim  8:15  In others or in myself?Claire  8:17In yourself.Tim  8:18  Sure. Well, before I tell you that, I want to say what a great story that is, and how much I want the people that are listening to really key in to some of the important parts of that. And that is, you know, we often think that we're the sum of our education or our work experience or everything that would typically be on a resume or on a LinkedIn profile, at least traditionally. And what we're discovering more and more is our reach is not defined necessarily by just our expertise and our qualifications. But that we're showing up as an individual that people want to understand the story of and want to know how they got there, just like you're asking me, and we're talking about this now. I was just going to drop that there was a really interesting stat that came out that when they were talking about how LinkedIn controls its algorithm. It's not looking for subject evidence that a person has a certain degree or education they're looking for, are they talking in the context of their profession? when they're talking casually, and they're talking about their family and can they and is this a real person? And so that realness I think is so important. And to answer your question, the watershed moment for me, was about 2006 - 2007 and I was working with a plumbing HVAC company. And I'd done a lot of good work with them. We redesigned their inventory systems. This is when I was more operationally focused, I did a bunch of coaching for them. But there was a lot of hard operational work that went into turning this multigenerational company into a company that was full of trust and excitement, and teaching a lot of old dogs new tricks. I remember we had a senior stock guy that was well into his 60s. And then everybody thought, you know, he was sort of was his way or the highway, this guy took up what I was teaching around, how are we going to lower that sunk cost of rolling stock in their trucks, and we lowered it from like, 300,000, average, per truck, down to 14,000, which is a huge savings when you're not talking about having a bunch of parts, just rolling around the city and getting obsolete. Anyway, long story short, I did all this hard work. And then I left. And about a year, year and a half later, I got a call saying we have a conflict, we have a real problem with an employee, somebody, somebody was hurt, they fell, they got hurt on the job site. And we don't understand why. And they're not really willing to talk to us. But we need to get to the bottom of it. And we suggested that we talked, they talked to an HR person or somebody that we could bring in that was independent, and yours was the name that came up. And we want you to come in and and I said, well, I'm not in the HR field. I'm not a, I'm not, this is not the type of work that I do. I mean, I've done it, I've done readiness for work, but as a manager, and they said, no, we'd really like you to come up. So I checked with my lawyer, everything made sure I was clear. And I got in the car and I rolled up, it was about, you know, two hours out of town. And I get to this, this company, I sat down with this gentleman. And it was a hard story. There was an issue with pain, and there was an issue with medication management. And he was not fit for work. Period. And I had to tell the people that trusted me to bring them this, that that was my conclusion. That wasn't what they wanted to hear. It's what they needed to hear. And so why I thought that was important is because although I was safe to weigh an opinion in and I was ultimately, you know, reasonably qualified for what they were asking me to do, the biggest thing was, they trusted who I was, and then I could hold the trust of these people on both sides of both management and the workforce fence. And everybody was happy with, well, everybody was satisfied and felt complete. And to me, that was a huge moment that said, this had nothing to do with what I know, other than some experience doing it some common sense and, you know, basic management principles and things like this. But I wasn't an expert in that field. It was who I was, and who I had meant to these people and the trust that I had garnered earlier. Thanks for asking, I didn't really expect my story to be in the middle of this. But you know, yeah, that really would, would probably be the moment. And then it became clearer and clearer when I went in. And I designed great, designed good processes, I was running Enterprise Risk Portfolios and things like this, but it always boil down to leadership. And leadership always boil down to character. And when I teach brand, both for teams and individuals, I like to say: don't confuse brand with marketing. We can talk about it that way. But it's not just the font and the color. You can say anything on a piece of paper. But what do people experience? And so if you're going to put something down on on a piece of paper, it better be the same thing they experience, because that's truly your brand. The moment they experience you, any words you put down on paper are secondary. But from a resume perspective, to say it that way, they better be consistent, right? Claire  13:44Yes, absolutely. And one of the many things I've learned from you is the flow state that you often talk about. And so I feel that if someone is to trust you to that point, right, so when they experience you after reading your resume, they know they're not getting catfished because Tim is exactly what we expect, right?Tim  14:11Well, sometimes.Claire  14:12  You're exactly who I expected. When I got to know you on LinkedIn. I wasn't shocked, necessarily. I was delighted. But I wasn't shocked that you were who I had experienced through your marketing, and then aligned with who you are really, and who your real brand really represents. Right. I wasn't shocked that you were who I thought you were. But I think that it takes a level of that trust that you build to give people the confidence to say, look, we need this thing done. And we know that it's not necessarily your specialty. But we believe in we trust you. And we know you. And so we are comfortable with saying, Tim, please help us get in the flow. And then you learn from there. Tim  14:55Yeah. Well, I think that's, that's important. And I'm gonna throw it back at you, sorry, but I got to do this because it's funny. When I talk to my, when I talk to the people that help me with production and social media and those kinds of things. And we're talking just, just last week, we were talking about a carousel post something simple on LinkedIn, when we talk about, you know, part of the things that have to carry, carry us and yes, it was my brand, but she said, you know, what do you like? And I said, go to Claire Davis's page and take a look. I'm serious. And not a word of a lie. And I will, and again, not to pump your tires too much. But I mean, for people again, go to Claire's page. And see because the thing is, is it's it's professional and slick, but it's also you, like through and through. And you go for the carousel posts stay for the Claire. That's what I would say to everybody out there. Claire  15:47That's gonna be my new tagline, Tim, thank you. You're hired.Tim 15:50  Better than a breath of fresh Claire, we could say. No, sorry. No, but I mean, seriously, like, as you know, and you've helped me suss this out. I work with a lot of linear thinkers and a lot of engineers. And I remember, oh, man, it must have been 11-12 years ago, and I was working with a group in a mega project. Somebody came up to me afterwards. Hey, man, that was awesome. Because I had done this collaboration session between competitors. And they said that man, you sure sneak up on people. And I said, What? And he's like, we had no idea who you were or what you were about to do to us. And I'm quite comfortable in the nebulous, right. But as a comment, they said, just so you know, engineers, geologists, scientists, whatnot, we're pretty linear, for the most part. And we really like it when you tell us what you're about to do. And maybe even risk spoiling the surprise a little bit. But don't try to pull back the punch line. So now, I mean, I think I'm kind of message forward with everything. They're gonna figure it out anyway. And I'd rather not surprise them, so. Claire  16:59Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, and you know, I think, I don't know if you know, this, but I have a degree in advertising, from Ohio University, Go Bobcats. If there's any Bobcats out there, there you go. And, you know, when we were coming through and earning that degree, a lot of what we learned was that being clever was part of the job. And now there's something to be said about people who can bring levity to a message and really, you know, kind of zag when people zig and so on and so forth. But sometimes, if we're a little bit too clever, or if we sacrifice clarity for cleverness, it can get lost, it can get lost just as ambiguity can and something I see commonly with resumes. What I find is people are usually very nervous to speak about the specifics that they know that they are good at, because they feel that the industry expects them to use certain words and to use certain ways of putting things so that they will look prestigious on paper. But what happens is, everybody ends up saying the same thing. While I'd love to say there were like magic power words, right? Let's list some right now: experienced, team player, market disrupter, okay, those are have already been overused. And instead, a large part of what we do at Traction Resume is that we help people to recalibrate and understand what are those specific things that you're known for doing? What do people commonly comment or compliment you on Tim? Because probably, that's something that people know you for. And you might not even have an opportunity to recognize that until you work with a resume writer, a coach, a storytelling strategist, somebody who makes you stop and say, Oh, ha, there is a through line. And I'll be darned, that does sound a bit like a system I might have been using all along and I didn't even recognize it, but that's who you are. Claire  19:03You nailed it, which is why I mean, I really appreciate you as a peer mentor, like I do. Like I'm just coming up on the anniversary of this double knee surgery, right. And I think I told you the story where there was a really essential piece of work that I had to do and I ended up doing it the day after I got home from the hospital, in my bed, marathon two nine-hour day virtual sessions. The second one after sitting too long. The first day was 100% from my back with my laptop propped up and you know, so that they're looking down on me as I'm resting my head. Oh, and my knees are up in the air with ice packs on them. But I got such a nice compliment from one of the people coming out of that session. And he said, you know, you've got this way of, of making sure that everybody's voice is heard, and everybody feels listened to in the room, and you always find a way to make space for everybody to get their thoughts out. And I never thought about that at all, as being something that I was able to do. But it's 100% core to my process. And it's also core to me individually, because, you know, from an empathetic perspective, I hate to feel like, just because you're introverted, or you're taking time to process what you're listening to, you're not getting your point across, because meetings aren't always built for everybody in the room. So from that perspective, and as you say that I'm like, You know what, I haven't even put that on my resume yet, or my profile. I've never really, I think I put the quote on my LinkedIn or something at one point. But as you say that I've never actually connected those dots till right now that that was meaningful for that, for that reason. So thanks for that, of course. And you know, what I find most often, especially with people who have been in business for a while, and even not in business, it doesn't matter if you're in business necessarily to recognize this. But what I find is what is most familiar and natural for us what is just something we do so naturally, we would never even recognize it as quote-unquote special is exactly what is so remarkable to other people about us. It's like our mundane is remarkable to others. I remember, I was talking with my husband a long time ago about cooking. And I learned everything that I know about cooking from his mother, as far as it comes from a recipe and she was this incredible chef, baker, she could make absolutely anything people would come from literally for miles to join us for dinner at her house. And so she taught me everything that I knew about cooking from a recipe. So one day, we're in the kitchen, and you know, we're talking about what we're going to make, and we didn't happen to have the things for the recipe, my husband and I, and his mother. And so I look in the fridge and I, I kind of just look at the chaos that's going on in there. You know, we've got like three jars of pickles, we've got like a couple of things a tuna and like a couple of and I go well, we can make a pretty decent casserole. And both of them are like, I'm sorry, what? Like, like a casserole? And I was like, like, if you connect these dots and so on, this might work and that's kind of a vinegary thing. And, you know, and it'll make sense, you know, that all the chaos will make sense. And both of them stopped in their tracks like, okay, okay, well, let's try it, you know, but I was so used to, I think cobbling together. Because we didn't do a lot of recipes growing up, that for me, I am very much like an order out of chaos type. But I never looked at myself that way until a little things like that will come up or someone will tell me. Someone will get on a phone with me before we write their resume. And we'll talk for two hours and they will throw every detail from when they were 25 and on at me. And we will talk through everything. Time  23:03And you take the chaos and you make it clear.Claire  23:06  And they they often even apologize. Hey, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I was rambling. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's the good stuff. The stuff you don't think is like mind blowing, is what people often miss about themselves. That's so incredible. But it's hard when you're so used to doing things one way you don't recognize it as significant. Tim  23:28So Claire Davis takes a messy career pantry turns it into an amazing resume casserole.Claire 23:38  Exactly. That makes that gets you a job.Tim  23:42 That gets you a job. A three star Michelin casserole. Claire 23:44Exactly. Thank you.Tim 23:45With nothing but Ritz crackers. And, and well, no, it's got to have more than Ritz crackers and a can of tuna but no, that's great. And it's funny because so I don't know if you knew this but I mean, I was a professional chef for a number of years. Claire  23:49Oh gosh. So this is you shaking your head.Tim  24:06  No, no, I love it. No, I'm I love we used to call it in the kitchen, the Jesus Christ factor not to be sacrilegious, but to say that this is a person that can turn water into wine. Claire  24:17I love it. Tim  24:18And you often face those things where something doesn't turn out and you have to make it work. And I remember going through my classical chef training and there were there were three masters. There was Escoffier which which the American School teaches and there was (Richard) Hering which was slightly different approach which are, er, which was a German original master. And that's the school that I trained under in Alberta here because we had a lot of Swiss German and Austrian chefs we were working with. And among the the Masters, there was a book by Saulnier, called The Repertoire. And the difference between those three books is that Sony just told you what the ingredients were no levels, no preparations, the book was tiny. And it expected, because you were creative, and flexible, and knew the basics about how all the ingredients work together, that you'd be able to figure it out. And it was an amazing book, it says the rest of the books are quite thick. And Saulnier was just this tiny little thing, and it would just say, Okay, we're going to make this classical dish, here's the six ingredients. And that was it.Claire  25:30Period. Wow.Tim  25:33 Period. Good luck. But the thing is, is that, that when you think about it, you never know exactly the nuances of what you're dealing with. And so, you know, balance, and composure and your back to flow. Right? When you're talking about that. There's the creative anxiety that has to be there, the excitement and the ability to take something, and then the ability to turn that into something digestible, and the control that's needed. What do I do with it? How do I form it up? How do I make it useful? And so a balance between those two things, right, the chaos and the order, very, like really, really important, and in a way, so much more dynamic. And it has so much more potential than starting, you know, paint by number, which is like rounding around to the original part. And maybe this is a great place for us to begin to wrap up and maybe consider where we go next conversation. Is that the resumes, as you said, originally, they can't be formulaic. And they can't be so traditional, because we've gone the route of painting by number, and it puts you into the hopper with a bunch of other people that look pretty similar to you. Not a lot of differentiation. So maybe part of brand is embracing the chaos. And getting through the messy stuff. I love this thought of like brand casserole. Wow.Claire  26:58  And maybe a little Jesus Christ moment on top. You know, all you need is a little help.Tim  27:04  A little help, But I mean, and that's the thing. Why? Why do we need help? Well, if we're in a project, if we're in a project, we need a lot of different personalities or workstyles. To bring that project home, we need the deep thinkers, and the inventors and we need the people who can tell what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. And we need those people that are going to connect the dots, we need those people that are going to bring the essentials to making it happen. And then we need those people that are actually going to bring it home and produce that thing. And anything we do that's of consequence and worth has all of that it's rare that a single person, let alone the person from the inside the, the applicant can do that fairly for themselves. It takes an outside view to become fluent. So anyway, I'm excited by this, the casserole, so we could maybe next time and maybe not too long, we should really try to find time. I know it's summer, but let's let's go for it. Let's talk about some of that internal journey and some of that chaos and dealing with it. And then also maybe some of the fear that stops people in their tracks for for saying you know what? You got pickles. Got some tomato paste. This could work.Claire  28:15There's a caper.Tim  28:16A caper. You know, we're either going to have, we're going to have a casserole or we're going to have some warm antipasto. So, let's, let's make this happen. All right.Claire  28:25Yeah. Also, now I'm hungry.Tim  28:28  Final thoughts there, Claire? And maybe as we as we wrap up, let people know where you are, what you're doing, how can they get in touch? How can they learn more. Claire  28:37So thank you so much for having me today. I can't tell you what an honor it is to be in leagues with you. And you're so incredibly generous with the advice and the peer mentorship that you share. So thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be on your show, you know.Tim  28:56  Ditto.Claire  28:57Now it's a lot of fun. We just keep impromptu recording shows together. It's how it should always be. But I would say you know if anybody is out there and they are struggling moving forward in their career, or you've been laid off, or you want to get a promotion and you are stuck and you keep getting passed over or hey, maybe you've had a beautiful career, and you want to get into the C-suite, but you're just not sure how to package yourself to do those things. Give us a call because Traction Resumes. That's our bread and butter. What we do is we really listen to your story. And believe me, we've heard some really complex, challenging ones, and we help you to sort it out so that not only do you show up brilliantly as you are on paper, but also so that you learn how to talk about yourself too. Because a lot of times just going through the process can remind you what that system for success really looks like for you. And why that makes you absolutely powerful. And what that system is that you're ready to bring in terms of value to somebody else. So if you want to find me, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn, I pretty much live there. Or you can always find out more at tractionresume.com That's tractionresume.com Tim  30:13And we'll have all of those links in the shownotes. Claire  30:16AwesomeTim 30:16So we'll make sure. And you know, one more time, I know that you've really helped me clarify who I am and what my offering is. Claire  30:23I'm honouredTim  30:23And so, you know, honestly, I can speak for an experience that you, people will know. Just don't go and see, folks.Claire  30:32  You can send me a message. I'll send you a voice note. Tim  30:34There you go. Claire  30:35 Love it. Yeah. Tim 30:36All right, Claire, thank you so much. And I can't wait till we do this again. Claire  30:41Me too. Thanks, Tim.Time  30:46Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word to by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening to be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

Pride is a protest, a riot, a celebration, a rite of mourning. Pride is not hubris, it is the truest act of humility.So many misunderstand the meaning and purpose of humility:Occupy a rightful space, neither too much nor too little. Focus neither on your own virtues nor the faults of others.Alan Morinis, Everyday Holiness: The Jewish Spiritual Path of Mussar, p. 45LGBT Pride is humble. It inspires people to take up their rightful space, not too much or too little. In a culture that tells us we are worthless and lesser, it is a shout to inspire people to know their value. We have a right to exist, to be happy, to live our lives with no one telling us we are wrong.I grew up hating myself. The church taught me my existence was a sin and hated by their false God. They embraced the demonic urge to hate and attack people who reject the forced conformity and lust for control and power.Our duty to Christ and God is love. Love for God, for Christ, and for one another.This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.Jesus, John 15:12Let all that you do be done in love.Paul, 1 Corinthians 16:14We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.John, 1 John 4:16So let's talk about LGBT Pride.On June 28, 1969, the Stonewall Uprising crystalized the heart of the modern Queer Liberation Movement. It wasn't the beginning, but it was the spark that lit the powder keg. The next year, the first Pride Marches started, and the movement carries on to this day.Pride is the one thing that Allonormative. Amatonormative, Cisgender, Heterosexuals take for granted. It is baked into our culture. Where is the heterosexual pride? Most movies, music, books, video games, laws, and cultural institutions are designed to celebrate heterosexual and cisgender norms. Some even put in the effort to mock and denigrate those who don't live up to those norms.They assume children to be cisgender and heterosexual until they come out as something else. Our communities forcibly coerced many of us to conform to these expectations, and threaten to disown us or send us to conversion therapy if we do not deny ourselves and conform.We are attacked, slandered, beaten, and killed for being who we are. That is why we need pride. With 500 bills to take away our rights in the states, we need Pride today more than ever.Truth is empoweringToo many Christians and conservatives not only spread lies about us, but want us to live a lie rather than be who we are. They claim to be doing the Lord's work, but the god that encourages lies is not the one who sent Jesus into the world. It is the one who reveled in his crucifixion.They claim to follow the ten commandments, but ignore:You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.Exodus 20:16They can't even be honest about this commandment saying that it is, “Do not lie.” The actual commandment is about giving false testimony against others. In other words, don't slander people.As a huge part of the upside down morality, they reject science and state their opinions as facts. I am not going to waste my time and energy debunking there lies. I will let Jessie Earl to that.There is your homework if you need all the receipts.Embracing Love and InclusivityCompassion and love are at the heart of Christ's message. The book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. He opened the book, and found the place where it was written,“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.He has sent me to heal the broken hearted,to proclaim release to the captives,recovering of sight to the blind,to deliver those who are crushed,and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began to tell them, “Today, this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”Luke 4:17-21How have those who claim the name and mission of Christ come to this place where they:* convince the poor to bow to and support the rich* insult and attack the broken hearted* support the imprisonment of others* hide the truth from others.* and step on the crushed to feel superior.For those who don't believe this is the heart of Jesus' teachings, he says they are the criteria for judgement (see Matthew 7:21-27). They are how you tell Christ's real followers from the false ones.We are called to live a life of compassion and justice making. There are no exceptions to the golden rule.Christians have never had a full or complete understanding of justice or truth. That is why Jesus promised to send us the Spirit of Truth to guide us. He warned us against making the Scriptures into an idol or oracle of truth (John 5:39-44). As Paul says:So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).But what about Evil?There are those who counter these arguments by quoting Paul:Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil. Cling to that which is good.Paul, Romans 12:9What is evil? The Christian ethics taught by Christ define evil quite well:* oppressing and not helping the poor* not healing and visiting the sick* not comforting and liberating the imprisoned and enslaved* not feeding the hungry* not clothing the naked* not sheltering the homelessI see a common thread weaving through all of that.What did Jesus have to say about oppressed gender and sexual minorities?But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this saying, but those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it (Matthew 19:11-12).”That's it. It would have been shocking to say that in his day.In the Mosaic Law in states:He who is emasculated by crushing or cutting shall not enter into Yahweh's assembly (Deuteronomy 23:1).Jesus not only contradicted the law, but turned it on its head. Being a eunuch can be good actually.I am not saying that eunuchs are necessarily queer, but many were, and I don't know how else to interpret how some people are born eunuchs. Maybe is a reference to asexuality, but it is unclear. The early church interpreted it that way and doubled down on celibacy.However Jesus meant this, it is clear that he did not judge the most visible gender/sexual minority of his time. What mattered was the love and compassion we had for others and how we make justice in our societies.If you wonder why I am not talking about what Paul thought, the truth is we don't know. He coined his own term and we don't know what he meant by it. He could have been talking about sexual slavery or cultic prostitution. Any translation of Paul that is clear is showing the bias of the translator and not the words of Paul.Making JusticeOur call is to make justice and to love one another as Christ loved us. Justice can not be based on lies. The science is in:* homosexuality appears in nature and thus is natural.* gender affirming care saves lives.Any argument to the contrary is not based in fact.There is not an epidemic of people coming out as gay, bi, or trans, the curve is mirroring the destigmatization of left-handedness.It will level off once the queer community feels safe enough to be themselves.Don't fall for lies and griftersRemember:* Gender, like race, is culturally constructed which is why its definition changes over time.* The gender spectrum is real. No one is simply Man or Woman, but have many genders we take up and put down throughout our lives.* Sex is a spectrum with males, intersex individuals, and females. Most intersex people will never know they are intersex unless it shows up in a medical test.* Sexuality is a spectrum, and not everyone has sexual or romantic attraction to others.* Untreated gender dysphoria kills.* Just because something is culturally constructed does not mean that it isn't trying to express a felt or internal reality.* Someone being queer is natural and does no harm.* Politeness, courtesy, and compassion cost nothing.* Children have their own lives and should not be forced to conform to the wishes and desires of their parents.* Humility is a key aspect of compassion.No one has to out themself if they don't feel comfortable or safe. Allyship and Liberation is about accepting the science, supporting one another, and fighting against the increasing wave of harassment, persecution, and legal threats to our existence and wellbeing.Stand up this Pride, and fight for our rights to exist. Get full access to Creation's Paths at www.creationspaths.com/subscribe

Pastor Brad Franklin talks about pleasing man or God. Watch this episode on our YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/wT-5Eec4eiw Click here to watch the senior slideshow:https://youtu.be/GjCcLceyMmESermon Notes: Scripture:1 Thessalonians 2:1-4 2 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain. 2 But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict. 3 For our exhortation did not come from error or uncleanness, nor was it in deceit. 4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.Psalm 37: 23 Leader: The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, All: And He delights in his way.  Amen. Questions for consideration: 1.     Do you alter yourself before certain people in order to make or keep them happy?2.     Do you act or speak in a certain way to fit in with one crowd and then transform yourself to fit in somewhere else?Pleasing people can become very exhausting. IF you're goal in life is to please someone else, that in itself can become an idol.  You must not be defined by someone else.  You're number one goal is to honor God first and then prioritize your life in that way.  Hebrews 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 13:16So we may boldly say: “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?” Make the Commitment Today ·       I no longer will let other people press me into their mold.  I'm going to be what God wants me to be. ·       I'm going to do what God wants me to do. ·       I'm going to fulfill the plan that God has for my life, not somebody else's plan for my life. 

If you've been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches' perspective to the conversation. I know you'll enjoy learning from their expertise as much as I have! Here are some resources related to our conversation:A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing ChildPeg Dawson's Smart but Scattered BooksChild Mind Institute Guide to Executive FunctioningExecutive Function Skills by AgeDownloadable Guides by Age from Harvard UniversityFocus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challengesContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18If you've listened to focus forward for a while, you'll know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on older kids, our teens and college age students. We've covered mental health, coping skills, social skills and college challenges. While we tend to think about how EF skills impact are older children, these skills do start developing in infancy. Babies' interactions with adults help them learn to focus their attention, build their working memory, and regulate their reactions to the things they experience. Everything is new, so they need to learn how to manage at all. As they grow, young children begin to learn planning, flexible thinking and attention. And as a parent or caregiver of young kiddos you might look at them and think "Do they have any executive function skills at all?" They're developing, and rather unreliable, EF skills require a lot of patience and understanding on our part. As I talked about before in my cognitive flexibility episode, it can help so much to learn about EF skill development. And in doing that, we can recognize that children's EF skill development is nowhere near where ours is. I thought it would be helpful to explore what EF skill development looks like in young children, how we can support them by providing tools that help and how we can support ourselves by understanding where they are in their EF skill development. In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting EF skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud, who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education, and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie and Mariam are all EF coaches with Beyond BookSmart. And they bring their coach's perspective to the conversation as well. And bonus if you have watched our webinar, How to Reduce Conflict and Transform Your Parenting Through Executive Function, you'll recognize Mariam's voice and wisdom. And if you haven't watched it, you can find the link in the show notes. It's packed full of executive functioning skill approaches, and tips for reducing conflict with our kids. And hey, I'm the host of that, too. All right now on to the show. Hannah Choi 03:09Hi, Maria. Thanks for joining me today.Maria Ares 03:11Hi, Hannah. Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 03:13Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Maria Ares 03:16Sure. My name is Maria. And I'm a speech language pathologist and a public preschool where I work with kids who are aged three, four and five. And I also work for Beyond BookSmart wearing many hats, and quite a bit of coaching and coach development and different roles throughout my time with Beyond BookSmart. Hannah Choi 03:35Great. And you're my sister!Maria Ares 03:38I am. Yes, fun fact.Hannah Choi 03:42So you are quite well versed, I would say at working with kids under five or five and under. And I was just talking with someone the other day who was surprised to hear that executive function skills are like they start developing even at birth, and you know, start to show up at written really young eight, you know, at really young ages. So, what do executive What does executive function look like in a kid who's under the age of five? And what are some challenges that might come up?Maria Ares 04:18Yeah, so pretty much every developmental milestone has some sort of executive function skill behind it. But what executive function challenges look like at this age is pretty much everything. Basically, every executive function skill needs to be supported in preschoolers. I would say that almost every preschooler has difficulty with some if not all executive function skills, and that's developmentally appropriate and that's what we're here for, you know, to teach them and guide them and help them figure out you know, these these little skills that help them be people that can do things.Hannah Choi 04:58Yeah, and as caregivers of children, it can be really frustrating because we're coming from a place of having really well, maybe not really great executive function skills, but more fully developed executive function skills. And so it's can be really hard to understand like, why can't they just fill in the blank?Maria Ares 05:16Absolutely. And there's so many blanks you can fill in there.Hannah Choi 05:20All day, every day. And I love that you said that it's developmentally appropriate. Like, that's totally normal. I mean, our frontal cortex, that prefrontal cortex does not finish the finish developing. And we're seeing that you can still make improvements on your executive function skills after your mid 20s, which is about when the prefrontal cortex kind of is finished developing. So obviously, a kid who is little their prefrontal cortex is just getting going,Maria Ares 05:52Absolutely, yeah, they're in the earliest, earliest stages of being able to, you know, show and develop a lot of these skills. And that's really what a lot of early childhood curriculum is centered around is sort of building up the skills that you need, and also the social emotional piece that goes along with executive functioning, and sort of how you can use those skills to keep learning and growing.Hannah Choi 06:18Yeah, and so I imagine that when parents feel it, parents might feel like there's not enough academics going on, it's in a preschool setting. But really, at that point, there's, it is really important to focus on that social, emotional and executive function, skill development. Maria Ares 06:37Absolutely. You need to be able to learn how to learn before you can start learning and being able to use your developing executive function skills to you know, complete different tasks in the classroom, make a project, follow directions, all those things are so important to academics and academic development, but you really can't make much progress academically, if you don't know how to learn first, Hannah Choi 07:01That reminds me of the idea of metacognition, where you in, in order, like as in, which is actually like pretty much the last executive function skill to fully develop. And the idea of metacognition is like learning how we learn, learning about our own brains and how our own brains work. And so it's kind of the same idea like these, the little kids can't really learn the academics until they learn just how to function with other people.Maria Ares 07:30Absolutely, yeah. And that metacognition piece is something that I think a lot about in my teaching. And I tried to help kids remember that everybody learns differently, and that everybody has different strengths, and everybody has different things that they need to work on. I really try often, after a task to ask, "Was that tricky for you? Or was that easy for you?" And then talk about why because starting to build those metacognitive skills, and understand that everybody's brain works really differently, I think is really important. So they can get to know themselves as a learner. And as a person.Hannah Choi 08:10I was just talking with my college client of mine the other day, and we were talking about how exactly that about how, if you have never been taught to notice how you experience things. And notice what like, what's tricky, what's easy. And then you can figure out the why if you've never been taught that, then well, first of all, it's never too late to learn that. But you've really missed out on some really great opportunities to, like learn about your own learning. So I love hearing that you do that with such little kids, because it is something that you have to practice. And I feel like as an adult, I don't remember learning that as a child, I don't remember learning, reflection, and to really think about how I do things and why I do things. And so it's it's great to hear that you're teaching that that early.Hannah Choi 09:07Right and I feel like as a kid, I had an idea of what should be easy and what shouldn't be hard and that wasn't always what I found. And I think that making it an individual thing can really help with self esteem because like Oh that one thing is supposed to be easy, but it's actually really hard for me. If you get if you if you get rid of that whole "is supposed to be easy piece" and think about you as a person and whether it's easy or hard for you that I think that can really help develop a you know, a stronger sense of selfHannah Choi 09:44And comparing yourself to yourself. This used to be hard. And now it is getting easier for me, instead of comparing yourself to other other kids, other people around you teaching kids to learn to compare themselves to themselves and not to anyone else and learn about how they learn. It's also a really great lesson for parents to learn, too. I imagine that let's look at your child's development, your child's progress, just compared to where they've come from, and not necessarily against any other children. Maria Ares 10:18Oh, yeah, totally, especially if there's siblings on the picture. Hannah Choi 10:21So the you I mean, you are saying that there are executive function challenges in pretty much every area off the top of your head? What are some of the most common would you say that you see in your, in your practice in your classrooms? Maria Ares 10:36Yeah, something that first comes to mind is like multi step directions. This can be really hard. attention span, understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses. Problem solving can be really challenging for some kids, and understanding of time is a huge one.Hannah Choi 10:57So do you think that executive function skills are something that parents, like, should spend time working on with their kids? Or are they just going to naturally evolve?Maria Ares 11:08I think the best thing for parents to do is to do a lot of modeling, modeling of your language modeling of planning, talking about the process for things, talking about how you can be present so that you can pay attention. But not you know, not. But I don't think that parents need to be specifically practicing any of these things, because like, we were saying it's developmentally appropriate for kids to still be working on that. But some things that I think can be really helpful are like before doing errands, you can talk about the plan, you know, each thing that you're going to do, and whether it will take a short time or a long time. And then when you're talking about time, I think making it relatable can be really helpful. So while two minutes, I mean, they don't really understand numbers, they also don't really understand time very well. So saying something like this will take as long as it takes to brush your teeth. Or this will take as long as one episode of Masha and the Bear, or this will take as long as it takes to drive to your grandparents' house. And then also give them the number to go along with that. So they start to learn, okay, five minutes is the kind of short time, you know, doesn't take me very long to do something that takes five minutes. But then an hour is like my entire lifetime, a super long time. So then just using those examples, and using that modeling can start to build the foundation of, you know, understanding time management and sort of what we can fit into certain blocks of time. Another tool that can be helpful, is if your child really struggles with multi step directions, or like a multi step plan, just writing out a super quick visual, with maybe a little picture of everything that needs to happen. So maybe they need to put on their socks, put on their shoes and wash their hands or something, just drawing a little picture of each of those and then helping them sort of check it off when they're done with it can really help with the planning and the executing of a of a project or just a multistep task.Hannah Choi 13:22And if someone is not an artist, are there resources online, I'm imagining you can grab some clipart from somewhere.Maria Ares 13:33Yeah, for sure. There's lots of different resources out there. I'm sure there's lots of free resources, but less than pics is a really great website for getting pictures like that. But honestly, you know, you don't need to be an artist stick figures are great. Doodles are great. I think just getting the idea down on on paper or on a whiteboard or something can be helpful.Hannah Choi 14:00And it shows like if you draw it, then it shows your child that it's that it's okay, if you don't have really great art skills.Maria Ares 14:07There is another opportunity to talk about that.Hannah Choi 14:12I love it. That's great. So what would you say that success looks like at this age? And I know that's, I know that's different for everybody. But would you what do you see first as success in that age group?Maria Ares 14:28Yeah, success can look different for every one. Because there are so many skills that our earliest learners are building. For some kids success might look like exclaiming that was easy, which shows that they're thinking about how tasks feel for them, you know, is it easy, is it hard? Success could look like executing both parts of a two step direction. For another success might look like remembering to put pants on.Hannah Choi 14:58Reminds me of a when I interviewed Fran, she said, kids with executive function challenges sometimes forget to put underwear on. So she said success in my house is when they remember to put underwear on.Maria Ares 15:12Yeah, it's it's hard to find a developmental milestone in early childhood that doesn't include executive function skills in some way.Hannah Choi 15:20 Yeah. And it also, something that comes up a lot for us as coaches is the idea of looking for those small wins. And, and it didn't, and especially with this little, these little guys, it's not going to be these huge, you know, they're not gonna like write a paper, and then have, you know, have all these like, massive accomplishments that they've made in their executive function skills, you know, it's going to be more subtle, I imagine.Maria Ares 15:48Absolutely. Definitely, definitely more subtle. You know, they're growing and developing so much every day. So there's so much to notice, and so much to celebrate. And it might not always look like executive function skills, but they're under there for sure. Hannah Choi 16:05And I imagined that there's like there is at any, any age, you might make some progress, and then and then fall back of it and then go forward.Maria Ares 16:15Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important for parents to remember, you know, just how much their preschooler is learning and developing at one time. And, you know, if they were able to follow a two step direction last week, and this week, they're just, you know, having a really hard time with it. Think about the other things that they're developing that maybe their brain is focusing on a little bit more this week. And I think that we need to cut them a little slack personally, sometimes.Hannah Choi 16:49I agree, and it's, I guess, it's hard because the lens through which we are looking is from the point of view of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex and years of experience.Maria Ares 17:01Yeah. And it's also very easy for me to say this about my preschoolers, but when I'm talking about my own child, no, get those shoes on! Hannah Choi 17:08Yeah, That's right. Yes. It's just a two step direction. Yes, or when? When..or my 10 year old. When I say, "Could you put your clothes in the washing machine?" The second step is not mentioned. But it starting it is, is part of it. So he did. He did what I said. But yeah, you did not do the unspoken second step.Maria Ares 17:46Right. I recently made a, like a visual step by step chart for tooth brushing. After we had a little cavity incident. Yeah. So you know, I wrote, I'm just never going to not be a special education teacher. So there's charts and lists and everything in our house of how to do everything. But I had to make a new one, because I didn't include as my last step on the list to clean the spit out of the sink.Hannah Choi 18:16Oh, Yes!Maria Ares 18:20I mean, I thought you don't really need a step on a list for that.Hannah Choi 18:24But here we are. Here we are. And so does she do it now?Maria Ares 18:28Most of the time? Yeah. Right. Which is more than never before. So Right. There's progress. Yeah. And now we can just say, "check your list", rather than "clean the disgusting spit out of the sink", which is a lot easier and you know, feels a lot more. Just feels a lot better to say.Hannah Choi 18:49Yeah, and it takes a takes you out of the equation. You can blame it on the list. The list is the list is what it says. And who knows where that list came from? Yeah, select some internet list or something. All right. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Maria Ares 19:07Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah. Hannah Choi 19:11All right. Have fun with those little kids.Hannah Choi 19:13Thanks. Okay, so now that we've learned about our youngest children's EF skill development with Maria, let's move on to my conversation with Stephanie and Mariam to hear about elementary aged kids and their EF skills. Hi, Stephanie and Mariam, thanks so much for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Stephanie, you want to go first?Stephanie Regan 19:35Sure. I'm Stephanie Regan. I'm an executive function coach with Beyond BookSmart and I've been working here at Beyond BookSmart for almost two years now. I was an elementary teacher and worked with children in different capacities for about 10 years.Hannah Choi 19:51Great. And how about you Mariam?Mariam Mahmoud 19:53I'm also one of the executive function coaches. I've been working with Beyond BookSmart for almost a year. I'm and I also have been a teacher since 2010. Working with kindergarten all the way to fourth grade.Hannah Choi 20:07Great. So you guys are the perfect people to ask, you have the executive function background and the elementary background. So great. Thank you for joining me today. So we are going to talk about executive function skills in elementary aged kids. So what do challenges look like at that age? And, you know, as, as I've talked about, in many episodes past, before this, we know that executive function skills develop over the beginning part of our lifetime and don't even mature until we're in our 20s, late 20s. And then, of course, we all have things that we still struggle with, even after that. But what do what are your challenges for kids who are in elementary school look like?Stephanie Regan 20:51I would say organization for for space and belongings is really huge. And what that looks like is a lot of students have a hard time remembering where to put things or where they've placed things or where things go. So that's really important. And also, I would say task initiation too, is hard, especially when you think about how impulse control is hard. And I think about that, when it's time to do homework, it can be really hard for a lot of students to begin homework, and not just kind of relax or do something else. That might be easier. I would also say self-regulation. Yes, definitely self regulation to again, and thinking about impulse control is another area to where executive function skill development is really important, because they're still learning to control their impulses.Hannah Choi 21:38Yeah, and that can show up, like you said, in emotion, it can show up in behavior, and it can show up in emotion. So yeah, yeah. And stuff like that self regulation piece is huge. I mean, even as adults, like how often like, I don't know, I want to throw a tantrum sometimes. But I have to regulate your emotions and appropriate way. And it's harder for the kids, because they're just not there yet. I know like, as a parent, my kids at home have certain things that they struggle with. And I'm sure in the classroom, they also have things that they have to work on. So where do, where do executive function skill, challenges show up for kids in the classroom?Stephanie Regan 22:15In the classroom, it can look like following directions, especially one step at a time. Sometimes directions can be complicated, or it can seem complicated to different students. So really, it can also come down to meeting steps broken down into smaller steps for students. So that's often where it can show up in the classroom. And I mean, there are a myriad of ways in which they can, but I feel like as far as following directions, and following routines.Hannah Choi 22:46That's that. And there's, I was just gonna say there are so many executive function skills involved in following directions, right? You like you have to memory you have to remember the steps you have to pay attention. You have to prioritize the knew the steps that you're supposed to be doing over the other thing that you want to do or that you weren't doing. Stephanie Regan 23:06Yeah, so many involved, not to mention distractions in the classroom, full of students. So, there's a lot going on.Hannah Choi 23:15Yeah, so that self regulation piece and impulse control.Mariam Mahmoud 23:20I wanted to add also organization, like just if a teacher gives a paper, like just getting the paper from the classroom to the house that you like, you have to know where to put it, and who to give it to you what stays home and what comes back. Stephanie Regan 23:32So these executive function skill challenges can also show up during recess. On the playground. So again, thinking about self-regulation, it can be hard to not just make friends, but also share friends. That's come up with a former younger client of mine. And also negotiating play can be really hard. I know, when I was a teacher, there was a rule. That was you can't say you can't play. But it's easier said than done. So self regulation during recess is a huge piece. And some students know, I shouldn't say know, but it's easier for some students to have unstructured time than is for other students. And recess can feel really unstructured. And sometimes, I mean, that that can be good. And it can also be challenging for for students. SoHannah Choi 24:29Yeah, I was just, I was just talking with my my son's friend. So my son is in fifth grade. And I was talking with his friend, and, and his friend was saying he does not like recess. And he was saying he doesn't like it because it's so crazy. And it's so yeah, I guess he didn't use the word unstructured, but I kind of read that, that's what he meant. So yeah, yeah, you just think of it as every kid would just like it because it's a break from doing work. But for some kids, it's it Can we I know I see that it is hard. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you have anything you wanted to add Mariam on that?Mariam Mahmoud 25:09Um, I don't think so I think like recess, some usually when we think of executive function skills, we're thinking of like school in like the content area, but like recess is just as important because school is not only for the educational purposes, it's also for the social purposes. So I think like, it was really important that Stephanie mentioned that recess is a huge, huge place where we see those skills take take place, or evolve over time.Hannah Choi 25:36Yeah. And and it shows how truly involved in every aspect of our lives as adults, and as children, aren't these executive function skills come into play, and they truly are self management skills, and, and how it can show up in different areas and how it can also really challenge kids and adults. But mostly, you know, we're talking about kids today really challenged kids, especially because they haven't fully developed them yet, especially there, many of them are still emerging in elementary school, they're just starting to, you know, just starting to access that whatever skill. So it's, it's a Yeah, no wonder it can be challenging. And I think understanding that is it as a parent, or as a caregiver, as a teacher understanding that can make a really huge differenceStephanie Regan 26:30It can. I know, it can be easier when you're in the place where we can take a step back and really think about it from a different perspective or think about it from a more objective view.Hannah Choi 26:40Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And that makes me think of how nice it is to have someone who is not, not like super super, as involved with your kid as you are as a parent. So like a teacher can maybe teach some of these skills to their students, in a like, less fraught way that it might be for a parent, or like a coach or something, somebody who's outside of the family a little bit, and not like with a child all the time with all the baggage that comes along with the relationships we have with our kids?Mariam Mahmoud 27:19Absolutely. I mean, I have two children. One is like, very, very organized. And my younger one is also in fifth grade. And sometimes I'm like, even though I'm an executive function coach, and elementary school teacher, sometimes it doesn't work when I'm telling him the advice. But if it comes from a teacher, or from the coach, then he's like, the next day, like, he's slowly getting it. And I'm like, okay, awesome, as long as the help comes from somewhere, but yeah, it does. It matters. Like sometimes parents, no matter how much we want to get to through to our children coming from outside, like might have a different effect on them.Stephanie Regan 27:56Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's also a matter of reinforcement. So they're not just hearing it from from mom or dad, who they, you know, have to, you know, see, well, all the time as soon as they see all the time. But, you know, students spend a lot of time with their teachers as well. But it can help too. And you're, you're hearing getting more than one place. Absolutely.Hannah Choi 28:16So that makes me think like, How can parents support their kids executive function, development without? Or maybe not without friction? Because there's going to be friction, that's just part of the relationship. But how are some ways that parents can support their kids?Mariam Mahmoud 28:35Well, I say like, I think like, the best thing, especially for elementary school students is like I turn everything into a game, or something you'd like have them play, like plan that the activity or the school, like, whether it's school, or sports or like a fun activity at home, have them plan it out beforehand. It helps them reach whatever the goal is in mind, and have them thinking, "Oh, what, what do I want to accomplish? And what steps am I going to take to get there?" Like some activities, if you're reading a story at home, you could stop and ask the question like, "What would you do if you were that character?" Or what would happen if the character was different in the story, this helps, it gets their cognitive thinking, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be upset, or maybe the character shouldn't be upset. And then they like kind of connect that to self to what's happening in the real life. So the text to self connections is really important. You can also play like those games, like Simon Says, or card games card games is like my own children, they love card games. It helps with the memory skills, it helps with like paying attention, it helps with a lot of those executive function skills in a fun way. It also allows them to take turns, follow directions, and even like that impulse control, like it helps them like they have to wait their turn or like they can't just like call out so It's a it's a fun way where they're learning the executive function skills, but at the same time, they don't know. It's like learning.Hannah Choi 30:06Yeah, exactly. Right. They're actually learning a ton of stuff. Yeah. And that's also good too. Because as parents, it can often end up that the interactions that we have with our kids are not always super fun. So, so giving, giving yourself a chance to just play and have fun with your kids, while also teaching EF skills at the same time, is really great. Yeah, I think for me, definitely getting out of the way, and trying to trying to move them towards independence, and also move towards having more positive interactions that have less to do with, what do you need? What do you need to do? Are you doing what you need to do? Why aren't you doing this? So being able to support them in that way, is really nice. So I'm a coach, I'm an executive function coach, I have, you know, a ton of knowledge and experience supporting people and kids with executive function challenges. And I've, you know, done a lot of research on it. I mean, I host a podcast about it. So I have a lot of knowledge. And I still struggle to come up with tools and strategies that I can use for myself, but also that my kids can use so that we can work on developing theirs, and also give them this independence and this autonomy that they crave. And that I need for them to have, so that I can you know, just do my live my life. So what are your further things that come up for kids like the organization and the self regulation and the task initiation? What, what are your go to go to tools that you teach to your clients and to their parents?Stephanie Regan 31:50Well, I would say my go-to tool is a checklist. It sounds really Yeah. and straightforward. And I mean, it's a tool that I use on a weekly basis. So it can be easier to teach it and support it when you use it. So I think having a checklist, an example would be a checklist for an after school routine. And that could look like, you know, come home, put my bag away, eat a snack, start homework, it can have a number of things on it. But I think it's good to keep it to like three or five things. I also think if it's visible and accessible, then it's more helpful. So with that in mind, I think it's important to place it where the client or student can see it at eye level, and it can help I think, ease any tension or frustration around reminding your student or reminding a child of what he she or they need to do when they get home. You can also refer to it like, oh, like remember, you have a checklist that you like, do this, or did you do that? Or what is your checklist, say and if it's at eye level, then the student if the if they're if they can read, then a student can refer to it. And also it's important to use simple language toHannah Choi 33:08Or pictures as well. Right? Yes.Stephanie Regan 33:10Pictures. I do like to use pictures. I won't say I'm a visual learner, because you learn differently. You learn different subjects differently or different topics differently. But I I do like visualization. And I do like pictures that can go along with words or phrases, if not, if I think it's necessary. So that can also be really helpful.Hannah Choi 33:36Yeah, we have a list on our door that goes out to the garage with the things that the kids need to bring in. And it's really nice to just be able to say, "Did you check the list?" I don't have to get involved. I just have to say, "Did you check the list?" I had to make the list, but and I hung up the list. But after that, all I have to say is "Did you check the list?" And then if they didn't check the list, you know, that's on them. So and I mean, my kids are older. So it is easier for me to say that's on them if they didn't check the list, but we scaffold them right? We maybe support them if they forget something on the list and then move them towards leaving it up to them if they forget things on the list.Stephanie Regan 34:13And there can become a point in time where they memorize the list. Oh, yeah, hi is a few things on the list and you don't really need to point it out. You know, they can they might come to a place where they have it memorized which is good too.Hannah Choi 34:25Yeah, I was just talking last night with a friend of mine whose kids are in second and third grade. And she was saying that that she was sharing that she also has a checklist for the morning and it says "pack backpack" and she said she's so funny, she was like "I used I even used indented bullets." So she has packed backpack and then indented bullets. And then it lists the things that go into the backpack and she noticed that her son had not been putting the snack in and she's like, why didn't you put the snack in? He said well because it didn't say pack snack. She's like me, it's just to take the pack from the top part. Pack the indented bulleted things. Stephanie Regan 35:04So, yeah, yeah, reminder that students can be very literal people very, very literal. Not just children!Hannah Choi 35:12Don't assume! And yes, that is such a good point. Stephanie, I completely agree. Yes. What about you, Mariam? I'm, what do you like to use?Mariam Mahmoud 35:22No, I honestly like the same as Stephanie, those checklists. For the younger students. When my children were younger, I instead of doing it over and over again, like, I just put it in like, one of those sleeves, like a paper protector, and kind of turned it into like a dry erase thing. So they would check it off, then I would erase it and then use it again. Yeah, brilliant. And putting it on the refrigerator or the same spot every day, like just having it there. Or like, when they were like, a lot younger, any, like little magnets interact and be like, Oh, I got it's on instead of a checklist, like just put like a little tiny magnet.Hannah Choi 35:58Oh, yeah. Smart. I know. Something that Oh, go ahead. Sorry.Stephanie Regan 36:03I was gonna say I'm an adult. And I like checking things off. In Google. I still get satisfaction from checking things off my grocery list.Hannah Choi 36:14yes, I'm the same way I use any list. And when you tap, it disappears. It's very satisfying. Yeah. I also am a big fan of writing things that I did on my list. So if it wasn't on the list, but I did it, I still write it on the list and then cross it off. After the fact.Stephanie Regan 36:33I was gonna say what you said about like, doing things that weren't on the list reminded me of five minute goals, or the idea of doing like, what you can have five minutes, because you could actually end up doing a lot more than you think you thought you could. Another good strategy or tool was like, okay, like if, if something is a fight, or a struggle with your child at home, or even a student at school, or a client during a coaching session? The Five Minute goals out okay, well, let's see how much you can get done in five minutes. And a lot of times, it's also been three minutes with a particular client of mine, but it's like, what, what can you get done in three minutes? And that I set a timer, it can also turn into a game, or it can be more fun. Hannah Choi 37:16So yes, like they're racing. Yes. Yeah.Stephanie Regan 37:20Doing more than you thought you could is also it can also boost self esteem and, and what have you, so that that's also good to.Hannah Choi 37:27Absolutely I love that tool.Mariam Mahmoud 37:29It also enforces our time awareness. Like they're like, Oh, well, that was five minutes, and I was able to put my shoes away and get my backpack out and get a snack or whatever they could do in five minutes. Like, they're usually very, like, amused or amazed that they could, they could do that much in five minutes. So.Hannah Choi 37:47I was I had that experience. When I, I, we have a gas stove. And I really hate cleaning it off after we cook dinner because you have to like, lift up the grates. And there's so many crevices. It's so annoying. And so I found myself avoiding it, which is gross. And then it looks gross. And and so I said oh, you know what I'm gonna time myself is I think that it takes me about 10 minutes. It took me four minutes, like four minutes top to bottom even wiping down the oven door and the handle on everything. Like Hannah. So every time I don't want to clean off the stove at night, I always say four minutes, you have four minutes. Yeah, it's a really good tool. The other thing I really like about five minute goals and that I always say to myself, and anyone else that I'm suggesting use it is that when that timer goes off, and whether you've set it for two minutes or five minutes or whatever, you can then either decide to be done, or keep going. And it's really nice, because it's like a built in permission to be done. I'm only asking you to do this for five minutes. Oh, you're you're into it. You're like, oh, maybe I'll just keep going. Alright, then keep going. But if you're like, No, this sucks, and I don't want to do this anymore. Then you stop it. I really I like that. That flexibility built in.Stephanie Regan 39:04Yeah, I was gonna say it's good for task initiation and also cognitive flexibility, too. It's like, Oh, that wasn't so hard. Maybe I can keep going.Hannah Choi 39:15Right totally gets you to change your perspective on it.Mariam Mahmoud 39:18Absolutely. I use that strategy actually, for my, my one son, he hates going outside. Like he just doesn't like playing outside and the other one like really enjoys it. So I'm like, Just 10 minutes a day after school just go out for 10 minutes a day. And he's out there for like 20-30 minutes like he absolutely loves it. Um, so I'm like this really like it worked. Just setting that and sometimes like if he's tired, he's like, it's a 10 minutes up, but for the most part, like it got him to go outside more, which was really great at our house, at least.Hannah Choi 39:48Yes. And that brings me back up. Always, always, always just start small, right? Anything that can that feels like it's going to be hard. Feels like it's going to be Challenge start small, which is the same thing when you are implementing new strategies that you're using with your kids to try to make some change in either your relationship with them or trying to build autonomy and independence for them. So you have to start small, this is not a change that's going to happen overnight. It's not, you know, you can't all of a sudden throw all these tools at your kids, and be like, tada, magic. It just doesn't work that way. And there's going to be times that we slip, and there's going to be times that, that we forget. And it's just easier for us to just pack their backpack because we're late. And I just want to pack your backpack because you're not doing it right anyway. But as long as as long as we recognize that is not going to happen overnight, and just do small steps, small steps working towards that independence, I think, at least for me, personally, and what I've seen in my clients, it makes a really big difference.Mariam Mahmoud 40:55Absolutely. And celebrate those small successes too. It's really important if they forgot their backpack for a week, and they finally remembered it, but they forgot to put their Chromebook inside. At least they remember their backpack. So like it's a small, those small steps, but celebrating it because it makes a huge difference when you're like, Oh, awesome job, great job bringing your backpack every day. They get that sense of pride. And they get the sense of oh, you know what, I could keep doing this? And I could add on?Hannah Choi 41:24Yeah, and they start to see the benefit of doing absolutely, yeah. And that makes me think about how, like, we only have the lens that we have through which to look like we are adults. And we are looking at their situation through this adult lens. And so sometimes it can be really hard to understand like, why can't you just remember to do whatever it is that I've just asked you to do? So I think, let me do you see that a lot when you're working with parents and their kids like helping the helping each other understand that we're all coming from a different perspective?Mariam Mahmoud 42:02Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest things that we have to actually talk to parents about it, just put yourself in their shoes. Yes, it is easy for us, because we've already been through it. Or like been, been through something similar to it, you know, like, we can think of a time that you forgot about your dentist appointment, your doctor's appointment, or you forgot to turn off the stove, when you're making tea, I'm like, it happens to all of us. So we really have this, tell them like just try to think as like the five year old or seven year old or even the teenagers, like there's a lot going on in their mind. It might not be on their top of the things to do is to take their backpack to school, like maybe they were really nervous about a test or, you know, one of their friends were sick or something happened, you know, we just have to always think about what are they feeling?Hannah Choi 42:56Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like that whole...like, for anyone who's listening right now, like you're, you're taking the time to maybe learn something and maybe find something that can help you understand your kids, or maybe ease some of the friction or conflict between you and your kids. And then that's how, like our kids can learn from the role models that they have. And if they if like from their teachers, or their elder siblings, or if they have a coach, just they're just still learning and we were all still learning. I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say.Stephanie Regan 43:34We're definitely all still learning. And I mean, I have my own example of I mean, I don't know if I should lead with logical consequences, but because it doesn't always it doesn't feel good when you forget to do something. And you know, because there's, you know, the intention of doing it, and there's the impact. You know, it's one thing if it affects you, it's another thing if it affects someone else, but I was just thinking how I mean, it can be good. If it's a small logical consequence. That's not detrimental. For students to be like, oh, like, I didn't, this would, I mean, be for an older client, but I you know, I didn't look at Google Calendar and I've got to have a quiz, a science quiz. So the logical, you know, the, so there's a consequence of forgetting the quiz, which stinks and then But then there's like, Okay, so next time I'm going to do this. Yes. Which is really important for for that awareness. metacognitive awareness and growth as well.Hannah Choi 44:37So do you guys have any other go to tools that you'd like to share with your clients and parents,Mariam Mahmoud 44:41So one go to tool that like, I think all my clients love once I tell them about it as a fastbreak plan. It's basically like, Okay, I have homework to do, and I have studying to do and I have to walk the dog and my chores to do but I also want to play my video games. So it's coming home and having the child like come home, right from school and do everything that's like a priority according to the parents standards. Just break it up like, Okay, let's do read your reading vocabulary words for 30 minutes, then you could do like a five minute or 15 minute break, then let's get back to doing maybe your math work. This will take like, maybe 20 minutes, okay, then let's take a break. I'm just having those little like brain breaks in between it really lets the child kind of have a sense of their own schedule. Like, yeah, I could do this or I could do that and get the child involved with the fastbreak plan, right? It sounds like does this work for you? Like one of my children, like he gets home, he wants his work, done his homework, like he wants it out of the way. The other one, like he is tired from work, and he's like, I want to play first. And I'm like, Okay, let's come up with a routine that works for you. I mean, it took me a while to get there. Because I'm like, No, it has to be like this. But once I have, like, I listened to him, and I told him, like, he told me what he wants to do. Now he gets all of his work done. But he's not doing it, how I would do it, but that's totally okay. He's using basically that fast break plan where he gets the work done. But he has that time to play and just kind of relax in between.Hannah Choi 46:15And I love how you brought up how, like for you, that's not how you would do it. But you you were able to see from his point of view, this is this really is gonna work for him and how his sibling is, had to approaches it differently. And my kids are the same way. My fifth grader he wants to come in, he wants to get his homework done right away. He doesn't want to have anything that he needs to do. And then he can just go and do it. And then my daughter, she likes to kind of spread it out over the over the evening. So yeah. And I think I think that's really hard to do. I mean, it's hard to do, it's hard to see other people's perspectives, like regardless of who the person's perspective is you're trying to see, it's hard to do, and I do, I really think it's, it is absolutely worth taking the time to try to understand. And you know, and if they come up and like I love how you said get them involved. So they come up with a plan that does really work for them. Why do they have to do it the way you would do it? As long as it's working for them? Why not? Why not? Let them discover that on their own? And how much? How many lessons in independence and autonomy does that teach them?Mariam Mahmoud 47:24Absolutely not to mention, it really does reduce that friction. Like it like,Hannah Choi 47:29It gets you out of the way!Mariam Mahmoud 47:31Oh, I wish I did this a long time ago, like it really like, right? He's doing his work. He's getting everything done by the end of the night, which is the end goal anyways. So I actually never works well.Hannah Choi 47:42Yeah. And the consequences, the natural consequences, logical consequences that you were talking about before Stephanie? Like, okay, so here, I'm going to let you, you know, build this plan, and I'm going to, I'm going to trust you to work through this plan. And if you don't manage your time, well, and you are still you know, up doing your stuff late or you didn't get it done, and then you don't get to turn it in, then there's a consequence. And then maybe you are able to, to, you know, learn from that for the next time. And I think, as parents and maybe even as caregivers not not in the role of a parent, but even as a teacher, especially with younger children. You don't want your kids to experience those natural consequences, you don't want them to have a negative experience, you don't want them to feel bad, you know, you just want them to have this like happy existence where they don't experience those negative feelings. But that's where they learn. And that all those opportunities to learn all that is only going to serve them really well as they get older, and the challenges get bigger, and their responsibilities get bigger. And so if we're constantly trying to protect them from those negative emotions, whatever it is, by doing all the things that they forgot for them, then they miss out on a lot of learning opportunities. I think it is important to consider if you have the time and the bandwidth to consider the different aspects of each situation that can be helpful. Mariam Mahmoud 49:13Absolutely. And give the child time as well. Like if if they make their own schedule, and they're like it's gonna work and the first day they didn't get their homework done. It's not going to change overnight. Again, it's progress, like so what I usually do is like, let's try it for a week or two. And then we talk about it what worked, what didn't work, let's tweak. I mean, as long as their grades aren't going down, and there's they're not forgetting their backpack every single day. I let them learn from the natural consequences. And then we talk about what worked what didn't work, and we change it, because that's how they learn.Hannah Choi 49:44Yep, yeah. And it really does take a long time. It's not it's not overnight. I mean, not even for us, you know, it's as caregivers it's it doesn't happen overnight, either. Like if we're trying to change our approach to our parenting. It doesn't happen overnight. So you Yeah. So as for kids who have for kids who have coaches or who maybe they have like a tutor, or, you know, they work one on one with a specialist, how, how do you guys see parental support coming in? They're like, how did how do you? How do you work with parents of young children.Mariam Mahmoud 50:25Um, for me, I just I let the parents know that like, let the child's practice. If we're working on something in the coaching session, like just practice what we're working on reading for us, for Beyond BookSmart, we have those portal notes, right, where you kind of communicate with the parent, what's going on, let them read the portal, make notes and understand what the tool is, share, like sharing the tools that you use at home with the coach or the tutor or even the teacher, just be like, Oh, we use this at home, like, as simple as color coding. Maybe you could try it in the classroom, it really helps when there's that communication. So communication is like the top key of helping the child no matter who they're learning it from. It helps us work together and help them succeed, which is the main goalHannah Choi 51:15It really reinforces that consistency, which is what you need to find any success. Is there anything else you guys would like to add? In your experience as as coaches of young children? Is there anything? Any takeaways that are really relevant for, for Listen, our listeners.Mariam Mahmoud 51:35I think just basically, just like we said, like communication, and patience, and just consistency is really, really key to having your child succeed. And working with the teacher with the administration, with the coach, with the tutor, no matter who your child sees, even if it's if they're basketball or baseball or playing a sport. Just knowing what your child is working on, and having that open communication could help them succeed.Stephanie Regan 52:04I would say the goal is progress, not perfection.Hannah Choi 52:08Absolutely. Yes. i When I interviewed Peg Dawson, she said progress. She said her colleague had a thing on the wall that said "Progress is measured in in years and not months". So it just it does. It does. Takes a while. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.Stephanie Regan 52:29Thank you for having us. Mariam Mahmoud 52:30Thank you.Hannah Choi 52:32And that's our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversations about executive function skill development in our youngest kiddos, and that maybe it helps with some of those challenges we experience while parenting or teaching them. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share our show with the people in your lives who might like learning about EF skills and little kids, you never know. It might just make a huge difference for them. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if you listen on Apple or Spotify, give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

16So hedelivered him over to them to be crucified. The Crucifixion So they took Jesus,17andhe went out,bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha.18There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them.19Pilatealso wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.20Many of the Jews read this inscription, forthe place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek.21So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, Do not write, The King of the Jews, but rather, This man said, I am King of the Jews.22Pilate answered,What I have written I have written. 23When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his garments and divided them into four parts, one part for each soldier; also his tunic.[a]But the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom,24so they said to one another, Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.This was to fulfill the Scripture which says, They divided my garments among them,and for my clothing they cast lots. So the soldiers did these things,25but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.26When Jesus saw his mother andthe disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother,Woman, behold, your son!27Then he said to the disciple,Behold, your mother!And from that hour the disciple took her tohis own home. The Death of Jesus 28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was nowfinished, said (to fulfill the Scripture),I thirst.29A jar full of sour wine stood there,so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth.30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said,It is finished,and he bowed his head andgave up his spirit. Jesus' Side Is Pierced 31Since it wasthe day of Preparation, andso that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath wasa high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the otherwho had been crucified with him.33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came outblood and water.35He who saw it has borne witnesshis testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truththat you also may believe.36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled:Not one of his boneswill be broken.37And again another Scripture says,They will look on him whom they have pierced. Jesus Is Buried 38After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretlyfor fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body.39Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus[b]by night, camebringing a mixture ofmyrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds[c]in weight.40So they took the body of Jesus andbound it inlinen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.41Now in the place where he was crucified there was agarden, andin the garden a new tombin which no one had yet been laid.42So because of the Jewishday of Preparation,since the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.

Steve and Adam discuss the drama in the banking industry, and the potential impact on Registered Investment Advisers. Transcript: 0:06Welcome to crypto for planners.0:09I am Steve Larsen and with me is Adam Bloomberg and today we're going to cover what's going on with the banks and in the economy, Adam, how are you feeling about everything that's going on right now?0:21And you know, Steve, I am feeling okay considering, you know, kind of teetering on the brink of financial collapse, whatever that is that the economy are you personally that's on the brink of collapse.0:32The answer to that is, yes, it is.0:36Actually both, both are kind of teetering right now, but that's okay.0:40It's where we are and, and you know, you and I are here to chat about it.0:44Yeah, we are.0:45So what we're not going to do today is really give you a thorough recap of what happened that's already been done much better by better journalistic outlets than Adam and I talking on a zoom.0:55However, for those of you that you brought up to speed, there were three major bank failures here in the last several weeks.1:02They were all coincidentally crypto related for various reasons that we may get into.1:07And so we really want to cover what's going on.1:10Obviously, it's spread into some concern over bigger contagion that's going on.1:15But we really want to talk about what's going on with these three banks and how it might affect advisors, right?1:23And so well important important note there is the middle bank in their rights Silicon Valley Bank was actually not much of a crypto bank.1:31It was, it was a tech centered bank, it was created, you know, basically to service those companies that were getting VC funding in, you know, mainly in the Silicon Valley area at first.1:43But really those those companies that were getting VC funding in the tech arena.1:47and so they were actually notoriously not a crypto bank.1:50They did not like banking crypto related companies.1:53They like banking kind of web two related companies.1:56Fintech, those kind.1:58So that the middle of the three banks was really not a crypto related.2:03And remember the first one wasn't a, wasn't a total failure.2:06It was a bank that just wound down operations because they said we're not gonna have enough money if we don't wind down now and they gave and that Silver Gate, I'm referring to, they gave everyone their money back.2:16So again, I know we're not trying to recap everything, but when we see headlines and this, this is how it affects advisors, right?2:23Your clients see headlines about bank failures and bailouts and everything and that's really not what we're seeing here, we didn't have a full on failure from Silver Gate.2:33They wound down operations because, and we can go into the fact that they were, they had a, you know, a loan from the Federal Home Loan bank kind of pulled out from under them, but they gave everyone that gave all their deposits, depositors their money back and got rid of operations.2:52And with Silicon Valley Bank, it was just a run on the bank that didn't really need to be there.2:57And then with, with signature bank in New York, that one's kind of up in the air.3:03We still don't know, we, we still don't know they're there.3:06The fed is calling it a failure and we had to take it over and I'm a little leery of that.3:11Yeah, it was shut down via press release.3:13It would appear without much more of a formal process.3:17Exactly.3:18Yeah, it's one of those things like if you're a baseball player and you find out you got traded because someone sends you a tweet or something.3:23It's kind of like that.3:24Very, very similar.3:26I, you know, I know that, that I had some thoughts on it over the weekend and I think you may have summed it up in a, in a tweet.3:32It was something to the effect of, is this the dumbest bank run of all time?3:38Yep.3:38That sounds about right.3:39It was an incredibly dumb, but it was you know, and what you and I, what I kind of intimated to you earlier today and I think I said on Twitter is so many people that, I don't know, there are so many people that I know and, you know, I'm, I'm relatively privileged.3:55Right.3:55I have people, you know, all my friends have, have gone to college and their doctors and lawyers and in business and such, they still don't understand how fractional banking works and they don't understand that the inverse relationship between interest rates and bond prices and, and how that works.4:11So when they start reading headlines and these people are your clients right there.4:15They're the clients of advisers in plant or how they're, they're clients of advisors.4:19We talked to their reading these headlines going, oh my gosh, there's a banking crisis and the reality is there's really not a, I don't understand what the crisis is.4:29Right?4:30That, that's the trouble.4:31But, but it's one of those things on as a bank run starts, once it starts, it just keeps going, it's kind of self perpetuating.4:39hmm.4:40Is it being a crisis of confidence more than more than anything?4:43And let's, let's move over to that.4:45Let's move into how it, it does affect advisors and how a potential change in the macro environment is going to affect, affect practices.4:53So, for example, yesterday, so we met with my R A, we met with the team on Sunday, we decided to get something out to the clients on Monday just because there's so much bad information and so many scared headlines.5:07As you know, I'm not a big Twitter person, but I made the mistake of getting on there for, you know, about 20 minutes at night that I thought the world was collapsing and then I remembered why I stay off of their But what, what, what we, what we did.5:19So we put, we put on a webinar for clients and really the focus was, of course, here's what's going on, but we spent a lot of time going through basically the different types of accounts.5:28So you mentioned how people don't understand fractional reserve banking.5:31Well, we, we wanted them to understand what a bank account is, you know, how they don't have all the deposits on hand to cover the clients.5:39And also the F D I C insurance is tied to that.5:42What does that mean?5:43And then over on the brokerage side, that's not for actual reserve.5:46So they're supposed to be your assets that aren't loaned out or borrowed against or anything else, you know, whether that's the case, that's a different story, but that's at least theoretically how it works.5:55And then there is civic S I P C insurance on that and how that works.6:00So that's kind of, that's kind of where we started at our firm.6:03Yeah, and that's a great place to start for any advisor is to just kind of help your clients understand and then you can, you can move forward from there and once they have a better understanding, then you can move forward and go.6:15All right, let's, we can talk individually with all of you about where your account sit, what kind of risks there are in those accounts because that's your job as the advisors to, to know about these things and then, and then to help them through it.6:27So that's a good place to start is not to go, is not to go full on Twitter.6:32You know, all caps, this has to stop or you have to hate the government or everything's falling.6:37But let me just explain to you how all these work and then if you need to come talk to us, but which you probably did, if you need to come talk to us about it, you can schedule an appointment and we'll talk about your different accounts, whether they're at banks, whether their brokerage accounts wherever and what they mean, what kind of risks there are, whose money it is officially.6:59And you know, let's have those discussions.7:01And as I said, most people don't understand how all that works.7:04So if you just explain it to it and your job as the advisor is the first, is that first line of education, then that's a good place to start.7:13Now, now, what if people, you know not?7:16What if clients started with where I started with, right?7:18Like there's a run on crypto banks there after the crypto banks.7:22This is about crypto and it's not about crypto at the same time.7:25So that gets, that gets a little more confusing as far as the bank fundamentals.7:29I certainly don't think so, but as far as the crypto banks being targeted.7:32Yes.7:33So where do you, where do you think crypto as it relates to advisors fits into this scenario here?7:42So the hard part is, you know, as we've seen it very much seems like the crypto related banks are being targeted by the government, right?7:51And there's plenty of stuff to read, there's plenty of stuff that is conspiracy theory and some of it that is probably not at all conspiracy theory that is the crypto banks or the crypto industry, I guess is being targeted in one way you target that is you go after the banks that are banking, the actual companies and those companies being exchanges, those companies being, you know, like circle which offers us D C or U S dollar coin, you start targeting those banks and saying you're no longer allowed to exist.8:19And therefore all your depositors have to get their money back.8:22And I got to go find another bank and eventually crypto companies run out of banks, run out of places that, that they can hold their money.8:28So where it affects, where it comes down to affecting clients is you go.8:33All right.8:33What is, what do we feel is the U S government's attitude towards crypto.8:40It's obviously this current administration is negative, is a negative attitude towards crypto.8:45Where does that affect?8:48Then where does it affect your investments in crypto?8:50Prices?8:50Well, kind of what we saw is, is prices went down for a little while in terms of Bitcoin and Ether and the other crypto assets and then they have taken off the last few days.9:01Now, whether that's because the tough part to know is, is that because the government quote averted a banking crisis and we're all happy that we're not all losing our money or is it because we're starting to realize the cracks in the banking system and the cracks in the financial system and go, oh, maybe this is the, this is part of the solution and therefore there's going to be more usage of Bitcoin and usage of the theory and it could be a combination.9:30And it makes you wonder, are we shifting from an attitude where, hey, the government's coming after crypto, crypto is in trouble too.9:38Hey, the government's coming after crypto crypto super important, you know, because really they know they're not just coming after crypto, they're coming after your economic freedom and now it's more important and that's certainly the optimistic take, but I think it warrants watching as the government goes harder.9:54Does, does the adoption increase?9:56And the price increase because of that.10:00Right.10:00Exactly.10:01And, and we can go that route, which is kind of the conspiracy theory route, which I don't feel is very conspiracy theory anymore.10:07I think it's pretty, they've made it pretty obvious, but if the route is, I don't like the fact that I'm subject to what, what happens with the banks and therefore I'm subject to what happens with the central bank and the fed.10:19There's a way to opt out of that.10:21It doesn't have to be with everything, but with some of your money, there are ways to opt out and the way you opt out is you hold onto your assets and that's exactly what crypto is.10:29It's, I'm going to take care of my own assets so it could be, I'm worried that the government's gonna have full, you know, purview over everything I do and, and full visibility and everything that, that I spend my money on or it's, I'm not so much as worried about that, but I kind of want to have some of my assets where I have full control over it and that's what the education for clients, right about how fractional reserve banking works and about how your accounts work is.10:56Once you've handed the money over to the bank, you're kind of not in full control.11:00And if you want to have this full control, once you understand that you go and they're probably going to go.11:05Alright, how do I, how do I get control of my assets?11:07Well, that's kind of what the crypto system is building.11:10It does have a lot of warts right now.11:12It's not the easiest user experience, all of those things, which are getting better.11:16But at least for advisors, you kind of see now why there's a need for it and maybe now is the time to start learning about it and we're gonna, you know, totally self you know, self promotion here.11:27But this is, that's kind of what we're trying to do here, but this maybe is the time to learn about it because maybe now the system, it makes a little more, more sense.11:37And even if you weren't behind some of the speculation behind the price of Bitcoin, now you kind of go, oh, I see where the idea of custody my own assets or my clients wanting to custody their own assets.11:49Kind of makes sense.11:50This is a system that does that, that's, that's, that's well said, and one of the practical effects, you know, on, on the R A firm was the switching of the banking partners.12:02So obviously getting money on and off in and out of the accounts, my friends at Gemini Vitria and, and so, you know, they were processing wires through silver gate, you know, and then it, then it changed and then now I think it's jpmorgan or something.12:16Don't, don't quote me under, they switched to, but, and again, and I know another great great provide in the space for advisors that again, they've been fined through all this.12:25He's a great custodian, but they've had to redo the banking provider in the on and on off and on a couple of times and it's just been a pain in the butt.12:32So it wasn't any funds at risk, but certainly operationally and logistically getting money on and off was affected throughout this.12:40And Adam transition into the last thing we want to talk about, which is what does this mean for defi and self custody that you mentioned.12:49And I use those to link it because the choke point in both places is the cramping.12:53It's getting money out of your bank in the crypto.12:56And that's, that's the first thing it needs to be tackled if we're going to really go any direction.13:00But specifically in the defi where, where it leaves defi is, it's hard because you're right.13:07The on and off ramps are the tough part.13:09We still pay for most of our stuff in dollars.13:12We still mostly get paid in dollars, whether it's your business, whether you're an employee, whatever you generally get paid in dollars and you at some point, if you want to participate in the defi system, have to convert that into crypto.13:24So I think it leaves us honestly in some tough points.13:28coin base is still, you know, kind of the biggest on off ramp here in the US.13:33And it's gonna be really tough for the government to put a clamp on coin base because they're a publicly traded company because everything is really pretty transparent.13:42And it's at some point you can't just basically snuff out an entire publicly traded company.13:48So I think that's, you know, coin base is still there and, and going a little bit further into where it sits with defied the things that coin base released in the last few weeks, right, which is their base, which is their layer two on top of Ethereum.14:05their wallet is a service, product code, whatever it is, it's coming out, which is basically now, I'm going to have this on ramp on the coin base and then probably more easily transmit, move that into defi on chain as we, as we say it.14:20I think that's, those are pretty important in the fact that coin base is still there and, and coin bases is moving these things forward, not to be like an advertisement for coin base, but again, being a publicly traded company,, and, and having the relationships they have and having the amount of money they have, they're, they're kind of the, the, I don't know the bellwether right now.14:40They're, they're kind of what we're all looking for as for as far as the on and off ramps and then you get into defi that's probably the on off ramp.14:47Eventually, we probably see us more of earning money on chain, meaning I'm going to earn in crypto, I'm going to get paid from my company's wallet to my wallet or my company's, you know, crypto account to my crypto account.15:00There is probably going to be more of that and more of that, you know, you X is being built and more of these products are being built.15:06And again, as the advisors, it's gonna be kind of incumbent to understand how all that works.15:11If my clients getting paid in crypto, I better understand what that means and, and how to take on those risks.15:17Because honestly, before last week, would you have even thought about the risk, the risks inherent in your bank accounts at federally chartered banks?15:28No, no, I wouldn't have and I don't think most people were we, you know, and, and part of like I mentioned, the education, different clients was, hey, within your Schwab account here, we can, we can put it at C D s at 10 different banks.15:40If we need to, we can get it diversified out, we can stand with these limits because even though it's unlikely, it's still, why not?15:48Like why wouldn't we be more safe than not in doing that?15:53And you bring up a good point about coin base, they are, they are aligned with us As much as possible with people who want crypto to succeed because they're not a fractional reserve bank and they do segregate assets and they are regulated and they're kind of the best of all worlds and, you know, to somebody like Geminis credit.16:11So, are they accept?16:14Right.16:14They were going out there trying to generate yield from a black box and got in trouble with the product and all that.16:19But as, but as, as far as, you know, segregating the customer's assets specifically on the institutional side, they do it as well.16:28but, but that, that's looking more and more attracted by today.16:30Right.16:30At least have your assets in an institution where they can't lend them out or chop them up or pull them together.16:40Exactly.16:41And as the adviser having to do some of that due diligence, right.16:45On, not only the custodian, you're, you're using for your clients for crypto, but on who they do business with who their banks are.16:52Like where, like if you keep going down the line, where are the risks further and further down the line and you might, you know, as the advisor, throw your hands up and go, well, I don't, I just don't want to get in this crypto thing.17:02I'll just stick to traditional assets.17:04Well, look, banks got hit right.17:07Like who, who's to say there's not a run on, you know, some other bank who's to say that there's not more that's being created more that we're going to see in the near future.17:17You, you know, I think, I don't know if we've mentioned Fidelity.17:20There's fidelity is a custodian.17:21Their fidelity is a bank as well.17:23Right.17:23So everyone's going to be impacted by what happens next with what the Fed does and what the federal government and central bank do with, with banks because they're all, all of our money is so intertwined.17:37So it's an important wake up call to go.17:39All right.17:40It's time to start doing a little bit of risk management.17:42A little bit of due diligence, more so than we did in the past where we just said, we totally trust that the government has it under control and go.17:51All right, we need to find out where the risk points are and going back to the idea of Gemini and Coinbase like, okay, we need to do that, that, that kind of risk assessment and due diligence as advisors, just like you need to on all of your custodians and fidelity.18:04Fidelity is a great bridge between the two worlds right there, legitimate crypto custodian.18:10And they're obviously, you know, a top 234 legit traditional custodian for advisors and they're, they're in both worlds for sure.18:19And there's somebody again that can serve as a great on ramp between the two worlds and they're not doing a whole lot of it now.18:26And the reason is because of this regulatory uncertainty and the attacks that they see coin based taken that these banks are taken and who knows what's going on behind the scenes.18:35But at some point, we're going to need these larger companies who understand both worlds to step up to step up and, and fight for crypto hopefully.18:44Yeah.18:44And I think they will.18:46And if we could go back a little bit, I think, and I apologize for continuing to go back.18:50But when we started this conversation a little bit is what is the, what is the impact on these quote crypto banks or these banks that we're happy to, to bank crypto companies getting shut down and advisers, talking to clients in this feeling of, oh my gosh, the government's trying to shut down crypto.19:09There's no more banks.19:10Well, you just mentioned Fidelity is a pretty large traditional finance bank, a pretty large traditional finance custodian and a pretty large crypto custodian and is, is getting bigger every day and delving into that a little bit more.19:25chase, I mean, as much as Jamie Diamond talks badly about crypto, they still do quite a lot of banking for crypto companies.19:32And let's not forget, you know, Bank of New York Mellon, which is maybe the largest custodian in the world is, is the, you know, they're the custodian of choice for a lot of huge crypto hedge funds and banks.19:44And I don't feel like, and I don't, I don't want to make assertions but those companies aren't going down anytime soon.19:50Those are not banks that are going to fail anytime soon because there be too big to fail banks.19:55Right.19:56And they're all full on into crypto.19:58They're not backing away at all their custody ng assets or custom digital assets, traditional assets.20:03They're mixed.20:03So I don't want there to be this feeling of, oh, my gosh, they said they shut down Silver Gate and signature.20:10It's all done because there are much larger banks than those two that are perfectly happy delving into crypto.20:18Yeah.20:19I think my overall take and it's, it's a topic for another podcast but it's not that they're trying to kill kryptos that they're trying to control crypto and these are smaller, more independent banks who maybe don't have the revolving doors of people moving from the board of directors and general counsel through the Treasury department back to the banks, like the bigger ones, where they do have control.20:39So I would say it's more of a, more of a wanting it under their thumb than a, let's kill it altogether type of attitude coming out of the government.20:50Yeah.20:50Yeah, I agree.20:51You're right.20:52It's more of a control, how can we control it and kill it and if we need to tamp it down a little bit till we figure out how to get control, that's probably where we are at this point.21:02but, but again, there's plenty of business to go around, there's plenty of building that's going on in, in the crypto world and we're seeing every day more needs for solutions like this not to totally take over the traditional finance system and, and kick it out of the way.21:18But you see a little bit here and there as to how I can, I can take on some of that custody and take off, take on some of the things that crypto gives us the transparency, the instant settlement, the the self custody.21:32Great summary.21:33So let's go ahead and wrap it up there.21:35It's enough bank talk that I think anybody should be subjected to at one sitting.21:38Hopefully there's some value there for you.21:40Let's end with a pitch.21:42You're gonna hear from us a couple of times.21:44The pitches to go to crossroads, crossroads 23 the planet out conference in ST Louis last week of April Monday through Monday.21:52Tuesday.21:53Is it 24th, 25th?21:54I should have had that up or something like that.21:56Yes, 20 24th and 25th in ST Louis.21:59Come get your tickets and most importantly, Adam, maybe people understand the speaker lineup we have and that's why they're not buying tickets.22:07Yeah, I'm not quite sure like it's a pretty killer speaker lineup.22:09So you and I have talked about banks and clients and regulation and stuff.22:12So we have Commissioner Hester Purse is leading off our conference.22:16So we're gonna get to ask an sec commissioner, you know, have her talk about what's happening with compliance and regulations of the SEC, which is pretty important to us as advisors.22:24And we're gonna get to ask questions among after that, we have Matt Hogan from bit wise, is gonna talk about the state of the market.22:31We're gonna have a compliance panel with compliance attorneys and compliance officers where again, it's all discussions, you get to ask questions and if you're an advisor that's in the crypto or wants to be in two days, you're gonna get just about everything answered that you want.22:45We're gonna have Tyrone Ross in the 41 financial crew that's gonna talk about how they're building kind of the R I A or the future using certain tools, some crypto, some not crypto, some web two and, and yeah, kind of new tools that are out there.22:58So there are so many others.23:01We're gonna talk about data and research and where you get your information and indexes and, and all of that.23:06But it is an absolutely killer lineup for any.23:08It's very focused on advisers wanting to add crypto to their practice.23:13Yeah.23:13Hit the planet dot com slash crossroads and you can get the details on time and date hotel and buy your tickets.23:20We are using N F T s for tickets were trying to get sidetracked, explaining that, but no, you don't have to pay with crypto.23:26Yes.23:27Even though we're doing N F T tickets, you can pay with your credit card specifically and hopefully your company's credit card makes it a lot easier on everybody.23:35All right, Adam, thanks for jumping on the podcast with me.23:38Hope there is some value there.23:41Hope so.23:41Thanks for having me. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit plannerdao.substack.com

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world? To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.Learn More About Dr. SussmanDr. Sussman's Website on TrainingsThe Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use DisordersDr. Sussman's YouTube ChannelThe Ross CenterScreen Use & Executive Function SkillsBeyond BookSmart's collaboration with Dr. SussmanScreenagers by Delaney RustonContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:00Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis. Hannah Choi 00:00I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show. Hannah Choi 00:00Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:18Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.Hannah Choi 02:42Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.Hannah Choi 06:16That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.Hannah Choi 08:14We don't want that to happen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.Hannah Choi 09:43Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49 Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.Hannah Choi 09:52Yeah, right, right. Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.Hannah Choi 10:31Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you knowHannah Choi 11:11Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.Hannah Choi 12:39Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.Hannah Choi 13:48Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.Hannah Choi 16:47Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?Hannah Choi 19:36Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04You were doing low dopamine screen actors,Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.Hannah Choi 24:02Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.Hannah Choi 25:10Yeah, you get half an hour more.Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.Hannah Choi 25:19And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,Hannah Choi 27:24you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?Hannah Choi 27:50Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.Hannah Choi 28:02Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.Hannah Choi 29:14Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.Hannah Choi 31:11Yeah, right, that same action. Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14Like mice. Hannah Choi 31:17We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you knowHannah Choi 31:35No, no.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.Hannah Choi 32:02Bringing us back to gambling!Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.Hannah Choi 32:19This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.Hannah Choi 32:32So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.Hannah Choi 34:14Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.Hannah Choi 35:14Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.Hannah Choi 37:11I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:01that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?Hannah Choi 41:21And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internetHannah Choi 42:47With a natural limitation on theDr. Cliff Sussman 42:49Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.Hannah Choi 43:29Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.Hannah Choi 44:06Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there. Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.Hannah Choi 44:56Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks. Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48Thank you. Bye, bye.Hannah Choi 45:50And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.

Sometimes it's hard to know who to believe, sometimes it isn't: Do you believe the person who has studied the finest details of physical health and wellness for upwards of a decade, or do you trust your pastor who thinks that God couldn't possibly reveal those secrets to anybody willing to test such principles? Unfortunately, that's the dichotomy we find in the world today. Christian Nationalists have actively led the crusade against medicine for most of the last two centuries, but there's some interesting nuances among the more moderate groups that we're happy to explore with you this week. Hospitals were a Christian invention, so why do so many distrust them? Maybe part of the problem is that most of our history has us going to our priests/shamans/knowledge holders to get healed....President Richard Nixon was the subject of a lot of satire. Relative to his predecessors, he's an outlier in many ways, not least of all was his membership in the Quaker community. This informed his decision to protect parents from legal repercussions for medical neglect. We also have some data from Pew Research Center that makes a lot of religious groups look bad, relative to vaccine hesitancy.Unleavened Bread Ministries has taken the lives of several children in the name of being "Pure Blood," including 11-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann, who simply needed a regular insulin supplement for diabetes. So many people are calling vaccines a secret poison masquerading as a cure, if only they read their Bibles (Mark 16:18).The faithful among "Jehovah's Witnesses" avoid blood transfusions, the Amish avoid heart transplants, and "Christian Scientists" typically avoid medicine in all its forms. Muslims avoid medical products derived from swine, and Hindus tend to avoid medical products derived from any animals. Interestingly enough, Seventh-Day Adventists still run hospitals, and the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a retired heart surgeon.We dive deep into the story of Doctor PP Quimby and Mary Baker Eddy, and how mesmerism burrowed into the "Science of Health."From Tim Minchin's “Storm”: "Alternative medicine… Has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine." Watch  Dr. Glen Fairen's discussion of COVID-19 vaccines and the Apocalypse on YouTube Support us at Patreon and SpreadshirtJoin the Community on DiscordLearn more great religion facts on Facebook and Instagram Episode TranscriptKatie Dooley  00:12Hi, everyone. My name is Katie. Preston Meyer  00:14Hi, Katie. I'm Preston.Katie Dooley  00:18And this is.Both Hosts  00:19The Holy Watermelon podcast,Katie Dooley  00:22I thought an intro would be like an introduction. Would be nice. Occasionally.Preston Meyer  00:27All they know is our names. We haven't described who we are and why we're here.Katie Dooley  00:32Oh, I got to go back to the trailer for that.Preston Meyer  00:35Should we introduced ourselves a little more often?Katie Dooley  00:37probably. Join our Discord. I mean, sure. It's the end of January 2023 Already, which blows my mind. Preston Meyer  00:49We've been doing this for a couple of years.Katie Dooley  00:50Couple years. I'm a resident atheist.Preston Meyer  00:54And I'm a Christian and graduate in this exact field of studies Katie Dooley  00:59and an all-around great guy.Preston Meyer  01:00Thanks. I am glad you think so. You're pretty good for an atheist too. Most atheists are better than most Christians.Katie Dooley  01:11Oh, wow. Preston Meyer  01:12Wow. Okay, that that could be an exaggeration, but probably not by a lot. Katie Dooley  01:15You know one reason atheists tend to be better than Christians is that they don't just let their children die in the name of the Lord.Preston Meyer  01:22That specific detail is true.Katie Dooley  01:28Wow I just said it. Today we're talking about religion and medicine, and how religion and religious beliefs affect your belief of science.Preston Meyer  01:39Yeah, man, what a roller coaster. There's some interesting things we've been able to uncover. And definitely lots of bad news, which we cannot cover every news story that falls into this category. Of course,Katie Dooley  01:55there were some, there were some really sad ones.Preston Meyer  01:58But yeah, generally, problems have come up.Katie Dooley  02:02Yeah. Which is so weird. Because historically, the hospital system as we know, it is a Christian invention.Preston Meyer  02:10Yeah. Hospitality. And I mean, even the word that we have for hotels now, all of that this is, comes from the need to take care of people who don't have somewhere else to be, especially the people who straight up can't take care of themselves at all.Katie Dooley  02:28Yeah, so the first hospitals were kind of an amalgamation of both hospitals as we know them, but also hostels and food banks and or soup kitchens, and yeah they just take care of everyone that couldn't. That needs some extra help. And then obviously, we started segregating those things. And a lot of healers, or medical people were priests to begin with.Preston Meyer  02:53Well, anciently, if we look at the biblical tradition, and this was pretty standard for most societies around the world, your healers, your medical practitioners, were the priesthood. Those are the people that could read who were keeping notes on things that worked and didn't work.Katie Dooley  03:12Because they could also write Preston Meyer  03:13Yeah,Katie Dooley  03:13most people couldn't. Preston Meyer  03:14Yeah. Yeah. The the craft of literacy and, and writing was all practically magic to the layperson.Katie Dooley  03:24Yeah. So then things somewhere along the way, went horribly wrong.Preston Meyer  03:30They sure did. Katie Dooley  03:32Yeah. So there's a lot of Christian groups that and I mean, Preston I'll get your hot take on this. But there are science deniers, and I know a lot of that stems from having to reconcile evolution with what's written in the Bible. So it feels like they just are like, Well, science isn't real, because how can Noah work then? Good enough. So they deny science. And then by extension, things like medicine, and most recently, with the pandemic, things like vaccines are being denied for their efficacy.Preston Meyer  04:08Imagine this just for a moment. Katie Dooley  04:10Okay?Preston Meyer  04:11Do you you live on this planet? Katie Dooley  04:14I do. I don't need to imagine that kay.   No, I don't like that.Preston Meyer  04:16So far, you're with me, right? All right. Now imagine going through life, not ever being able to predict the outcome of any action ever.  No, that's absolute nonsense. You know that when you put one foot in front of the next one, it's going to meet the ground that you can see, and that as you shift your weight, you can propel yourself forward. That's science.Katie Dooley  04:45That just reminded me of a really bad joke.Preston Meyer  04:48If you're going to pour yourself a glass of water, that's science. We have reliably proven that the exercises to accomplish these tasks work.Katie Dooley  05:00Yeah. And I mean, we can go go back to our early episodes, but there was a time when things couldn't be proven. So we use religion to prove themPreston Meyer  05:11All kinds of fancy hypotheses for all sorts of things we didn't understand. And then we studied them,Katie Dooley  05:17Then we figured it out which is awesome. But yeah, but would I be right to say that a lot of this anti science comes from trying to reconcile the Bible that if you're a fundamentalist and believe is true to the word, even though there are stories we know are not true stories, then you have to cut out science?Preston Meyer  05:32You don't have toKatie Dooley  05:35But then how did Noah work if you have science?! It doesn't!Preston Meyer  05:41Yeah, things get complicated when you try and make stories that are primarily symbolic.Katie Dooley  05:48Doesn't work.So if you do the literal truth, then we Yeah,Preston Meyer  05:54you're gonna have a hard time.  Yeah. And so it's weird that the and this is definitely throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you're just Oh, science disproves this one thing that I believe really strongly, really effectively, then I'm gonna have to stop believing literally everything under the banner of science. Weird choice.Katie Dooley  05:55Gonna have a hard time. You think so? But again, a lot of people let their kid die over this. So  Yeah, we found a whole bunch of Christian denominations that do this. The followers of Christ in the early 2000s, this group had a child mortality rate 10 times higher than the state average of where they were located, which was the state of Idaho, because they liked faith heailings... Preston Meyer  06:25yeah.  Yeah,Katie Dooley  06:46instead of real doctors. Preston Meyer  06:48Yeah,Katie Dooley  06:49one thing that was also really terrifying that I guess benefited, benefited the followers of Christ. Also, we're going to talk about Christian scientists later also benefited Christian scientists, is that President Nixon actually made a ruling that required states to pass exemptions to child medical treatment based off of a religious exemption. So basically, parents couldn't go to jail if their child died, because they made a medical choice based off of their religion, so you can charge them with like, neglect, or murder. So that was really cool.Preston Meyer  07:24So I'm fully on board with the whole the government won't impose laws on what you believe. But the government has an awful lot of laws on how you can act in our shared society. And our actions are founded on the things that we believe about the world around us. So we need to convince people to change their beliefs.Katie Dooley  07:49Well, you know, comes back we've done a lot of episodes on this everything from our parody religions episode to atheism, and Satanism of like, that's great that you want to kill your kid but like, I can't just like make up a rule for religious religious exemption. Preston Meyer  08:05Right.Katie Dooley  08:06Right. If we can just do things because we say but I'm religious like it would, everything would become chaos.Preston Meyer  08:12You just gotta stop telling the government you're an atheist. And then you get all kinds of fancy freedom. Katie Dooley  08:17Cool. Okay, well, I believe in Russell's teapot and Russell's teapot tells me I get to be naked 24/7 in public, so I cannot go to jail for public indecency. Like, you can't just do that Preston.Preston Meyer  08:31That depends where you live.Katie Dooley  08:35I mean, I knowPreston Meyer  08:36I mean, full nude still prohibited in most places, butKatie Dooley  08:40Handful of nude beaches you can go toPreston Meyer  08:41but you can be fully topless in most parts of Canada. I mean, we also have the weather that discourages thatKatie Dooley  08:51like right now, right but you just can't have your wiener hanging out Preston.Preston Meyer  08:56Noo.Katie Dooley  08:58And you can't... You know, if everyone just said, Well, it's because I'm religious.Preston Meyer  09:03Well, though, okay. We do know that members of the clergy have definitely been caught with their wiener in places where it does not belong and get away with it because they claim religiousness. There had been way too many times where somebody who has been a pastor for a while diddled a couple of kids went, went to court and got a reduced sentence because he's a man of faith. When clearly his actions say he's notKatie Dooley  09:37anyway, we just hopped on a soapbox for a minute there. This was eventually repealed in 1983, which I guess is good, but it was around for a while where you couldn't go to jail if you killed your kid. So A+ President Nixon,Preston Meyer  09:53right. Yeah, that was that was interesting. Christian Nationalism is a little bit of a problem.Katie Dooley  10:01Yeah. I mean, you were on I was just remembering the other day you were on a podcast talking about some of this stuff progressive versus... Preston Meyer  10:08Yeah...Katie Dooley  10:08Not progressive Christianity.Preston Meyer  10:12Yeah, it was a little while ago now, actually. But it was good time.Katie Dooley  10:15I'm the villain. Preston Meyer  10:17Yeah,Katie Dooley  10:17check out Preston. Preston Meyer  10:18Man that was... it feels like so long ago.Katie Dooley  10:22Yeah, real scary stuff, especially when it came to the pandemic.Preston Meyer  10:27Yeah, I mean, Christian Nationalism has been a problem in North America for almost a century. But things got really weird over the COVID crisis, and all kinds of people shouting about their rights to avoid this poison. I want to get a little bit more into that later. But it's just crazy that 45% of white evangelical adults said they would not be vaccinated. That is a staggeringly large number. And this idea is not just in like a couple of weird little nationalist groups, either it had spread through a lot of Christianity. But the nationalists got really gross about it.Katie Dooley  11:15And like bizarre about it, one of the articles I read that Christian nationalists have said that the vaccine is the mark of the beast, as prophesized in the Revelation of John, because it prevented people from buying and selling, air quotes, "without the mark".Preston Meyer  11:33Yeah. Our recent guest, Dr. Glenn Farron has shown up in other shows, examining this exact phenomenon, it's really fascinating.Katie Dooley  11:44And terrifying. Preston Meyer  11:45Yeah, it's weird. Katie Dooley  11:47Okay, as because we introduced ourselves as our resident Christian, why do you think it's taken such a hold on Christianity,Preston Meyer  11:54we have this frustrating problem where there's been this prediction of a whole bunch of signs that will mark the coming of the Savior. And it's been many, many centuries, where it's kind of been a building tension. We've got all kinds of apocalyptical groups popping up more and more recently, but they've been around for a while. And when we see anything that can fit into that framework that's built to be a thing of interpretation, rather than a one for one obvious comparison kind of deal as something that people really latch on to. And so when you see this part in the scripture that says, without this mark, you won't get to participate in the economic part of society, then you, you fear that maybe this is a parallel to what is happening with oh, you need your COVID passport to go into a store. Instead of recognizing, oh, I have a civil responsibility to do my best to take care of the people around me. And that's why I'm being shunned. But because I don't want to help out. It's so much more fun. And self aggrandizing to see everyone else as the villain, rather than admit that you're the one causing harm. That's the problem.Katie Dooley  13:24Mormons believe in the Second Coming, yeah? Preston Meyer  13:27Yeah.Katie Dooley  13:27Okay. Is there any piece of this, that's like, people wanting it to happen? Preston Meyer  13:32Oh for sure!Katie Dooley  13:33Yeah?Preston Meyer  13:34Absolutely.Katie Dooley  13:35They just want to be on the bleeding edge. So Jesus takes them up.  Preston Meyer  13:40Yeah.Katie Dooley  13:40With themPreston Meyer  13:41Yeah.Katie Dooley  13:42They don't want to be wrong. Preston Meyer  13:43Hey?Katie Dooley  13:43They don't want to be wrong. They don't want to take the mark of the beast, and then Jesus will be like, No, sorry.Preston Meyer  13:48Yeah, you don't want to do anything wrong. Because what if this is the end? What if this is the trial, I don't want to fail.Katie Dooley  13:55Okay.Preston Meyer  13:56I need to be as faithful as I possibly can. Even if that means I've screwed up. It's okay to make mistakes, you're forgiven for mistakes, as long as they're genuine mistakes, and not me skipping out on opportunities to be better. But I mean, all it takes is a little bit of extra thinking.Katie Dooley  14:19It just anyway, goes back to love your neighbor. We've talked about this a lot this month, actually.Preston Meyer  14:25And so many people have a hard time realizing that that's the number one thing. Jesus wasn't ambiguous about this. But it's hard to love your neighbor sometimes. Especially if your neighbor is anti-Vaxxer.Katie Dooley  14:44You know, I realized during this podcast, I like Jesus a lot more now and Christianity a lot less. Preston Meyer  14:50Yeah.Katie Dooley  14:51Like if you asked me three years ago, if I like Jesus would be like, like, like, no, like, I don't know, but I actually kind of think he's a cool guy.Preston Meyer  14:58I appreciate that you have, in your head, separated the man from the fan club.Katie Dooley  15:02Yeah. And the the more I learned, the more they're getting very separate in my head.Preston Meyer  15:07They are very very different I mean, yeah, there's more than one fan club, most of the fan clubs suck.Katie Dooley  15:15So what we should do is start our own fan club! I am kidding, that doesn't solve the issue.Preston Meyer  15:19What more parties?!?Katie Dooley  15:24more denomination Okay. In the United States religious conservatism, including the evangelical and born again Christianity movement is associated with lower levels of trust in science, rates of vaccine vaccine uptake, vaccine knowledge and higher levels of vaccine hesitancy.Preston Meyer  15:44Yeah, research has found that religiosity is negatively associated with plans to receive the COVID vaccine, which is a huge bummer. And one religious worldview, especially hostile to science and vaccines is the Christian nationalism movement. It's caused a fair bit of problems, distrusting the government is fair to to a degree. So not the same thing that sees a rebellion a whole year ago, or a couple of years ago now, January 6. But, you know, funKatie Dooley  16:24Is it fun? One of these groups I found and just because they came up in the news for killing a child, and I put an asterick Preston I will let you guide me on how much we actually talked about this group was the unleavened bread ministries, and I'm big Asterix in our show notes. They say, I barely want to give this man any attention, because he's fucking crazy.Preston Meyer  16:46I mean, that's fair.Katie Dooley  16:48So I'll probably just not say the pastor's name.Preston Meyer  16:51I think that's the right way.Katie Dooley  16:52So in 2008, an 11-year-old girl, Madeline Cara Newman died of diabetes complications that were very manageable, and very treatable. She literally just needed some insulin, which is really sad, but instead her parents opted for prayer.Preston Meyer  17:11Yeah, it's not the only headline, but it happens. And I don't know why people want to deny that, medicine is a gift. If you believe that God gives us all the good things, and we've studied the universe to understand creation, which is the way a lot of religions do look at it. Knowing that, oh, now that we know more about this thing, we can help people. Why not jump on that?Katie Dooley  17:42So we're, so her parents were part of this Unleavened Bread Ministries, and so I decided to go to their website. I really hope I'm not retargeted for anything, because that was something that was not pleasant. You can tune into their radio. 24/7 they actually say tune into our radio channel, 24/7 Which implies they want you to listen to it 24/7.  Not that it's on 24/7, which was scary.Preston Meyer  18:09I mean, that's how you get your ad revenue. Right?  I think if you were to listen to us 24/7 right nowKatie Dooley  18:13I guess so. You should listen to the Holy Watermelon podcast 24/7  you just have five daysPreston Meyer  18:23Yeah, just couple of days of content, and then you're on repeat. Katie Dooley  18:28That's fine.Preston Meyer  18:28I mean, Katie Dooley  18:29I'm okay with it.Preston Meyer  18:30You know, maybe some people would be better for it.Katie Dooley  18:32So basically, this pastor tells to pray away COVID and others other diseases, but he also recommended Ivermectin and hydro hydro ox so Chloroquine hydro- Preston Meyer  18:47hydroxychloroquine?Katie Dooley  18:48that one that makes you go blind or whatever, as well which was insanity. To me, it's like you should pray but if you don't feel like praying, take something that will kill you. Preston Meyer  18:58The vaccine is poison, butKatie Dooley  19:01Ivermectin is totally fine...Preston Meyer  19:04So-Katie Dooley  19:05So I have in my notes I wrote "not sure if grifter or cult leader"Preston Meyer  19:10it's, it's problematic. What's interesting to me, is there is a reasonably common belief among these Christian extremists, let's call them what they are, that the vaccine is poison. And I've heard several times that all these people who took the vaccine they're gonna be dead in five years or less.Katie Dooley  19:35Did you see this quote? "Fully vaccinated people-" this is from the pastor again, his name I won't say fully, "vaccinated people are now suffering from what looks like the Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, better known as AIDS. Their immune system is fading as many have warned." so both Preston and I apparently have AIDS.Preston Meyer  19:54Apparently.Katie Dooley  19:57Most of our friends also apparently have AIDS.Preston Meyer  20:01Yeah. So what I was getting to this idea that this vaccine is poison. And remember, the vast majority of us are taking the vaccine to either protect ourselves, or to protect the people around us because we care about them. So they're here. Here's a passage from Mark chapter 16. Gospel of Mark, it's Jesus speaking, it's after he's been resurrected, he's teaching the remaining apostles because Judas is gone. He's not with them. And he says, Those who believe in Me will be able to drink poison without being hurt. I mean, there's a bit about snakes in there, there's, there's all kinds of little bits I skipped. But I added the beginning and the end together to give you the good bit, that if you believe, and if you do actually believe you want to help your neighbors and protect them, then it sounds like the Lord says, You got nothing to fear from this vaccine. Katie Dooley  21:00Yeah, well. Preston Meyer  21:03But to be fair, that is a personal interpretation of Scripture, that is at least as valid as the opposing argument.Katie Dooley  21:18So one of the arguments I wrote in, in these, nothing short of crazy articles was that, and this kind of goes back to the Nixon thing is that some of these groups have argued like, well, if a doctor, someone dies under a doctor's watch, the doctor doesn't get charged. So just because we weren't successful in our prayer circle, doesn't mean we should be charged.  Oh Preston... Preston's face is gold right now.Preston Meyer  21:47So while it's very tricky to charge a doctor- Katie Dooley  21:54Unless it's malpractice.Preston Meyer  21:55Right, and it's very tricky to sue a doctor, they have training to do the things that are they're expected to do. And the rest of us are told with, I would say, a close to equivalent value of repetition of take your people to a doctor. So when we fail step one of the process to not even give the doctor a chance to screw up or do the great thing that we need. Wit and it's usually a success, that is neglect. And I would say in an awful lot of situations a criminal neglect.Katie Dooley  22:38I just had a weird thought- Preston Meyer  22:39Yeah?Katie Dooley  22:40that's not in our notes. America in particular, and I mean, Canada, to some extent, as well, prides itself on being a Christian nation. Preston Meyer  22:50YupKatie Dooley  22:51Christianity started the first hospitals to help people. Yeah, that couldn't help themselves. And America doesn't have free health care.Preston Meyer  23:00NopeKatie Dooley  23:01Those things don't all go together, do they? Preston Meyer  23:03No, they don't.Katie Dooley  23:04Okay.Preston Meyer  23:06It sounds like you understand perfectly.Katie Dooley  23:09I do, I do. I understand the pieces, but the why? I am perplexed by because Jesus would have wanted public health care.Preston Meyer  23:20So we've already talked about the prosperity gospel-Katie Dooley  23:22we have,Preston Meyer  23:23and nothing on this planet is more American than publi-Katie Dooley  23:28Grifting!Preston Meyer  23:29Than grifting! Yeah! Maybe the the next best thing would be mass extermination, which I mean, is connected to this in some sort of way.Katie Dooley  23:45All right. Well, I feel like we're being very critical today. ButPreston Meyer  23:50sometimes you got to be and that it comes with the territory and today's subject. Katie Dooley  23:56Totally. Then there are groups that have very specific rules around medicine. Not necessarily, these sort of broad-Preston Meyer  23:57Yeah,Katie Dooley  23:59don't believe in science.Preston Meyer  24:05A lot of groups generally like the idea of science. Oh, yeah, I guess this thing has been proven. Let's go with it. With exceptions.Katie Dooley  24:14So there's the Jehovah Witnesses are almost famous for it, they do not accept blood transfusions. So overall, they're pretty cool with medicine and science, unless you need a blood transfusion.Preston Meyer  24:28Yeah, Prince was a pretty well-known star, and almost as well known that he was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. And he had some wicked hip pain for a long time. And it is speculated hard to confirm things now that he's gone, that it took him a while to get the hip surgery he needed, because hip surgery almost always comes with a major blood transfusion. Cuz, you know, open up pretty high traffic area in the body. Katie Dooley  25:04Yeah.Preston Meyer  25:05And so it's a big problem. So it's generally discouraged that because of the blood transfusion hip surgery is a tricky thing to try to navigate as a Jehovah's Witness.Katie Dooley  25:15Yeah, I, this is ages ago, and I didn't find them for this. And we'll do a full episode on Jehovah Witnesses one day, but the number of parents that when their kid needs a blood transfusion, start to question their faith prettyPreston Meyer  25:32it's a healthy perspective.Katie Dooley  25:34Totally! But it's interesting, like, I didn't pull up blood transfusion statistics, but especially probably before 50 Most people do not need a blood transfusion unless you're, you know, touch wood in a car accident or something. But I'm learning a blood transfusion and presume you never need a blood transfusion. So it's pretty easy to be like, oh, yeah, fine. I cannot accept someone else's blood until you need to accept someone else's blood. Preston Meyer  25:59Right? Well, and I think it's really interesting that I've, I've heard stories of people who say that after a blood transfusion, my brother-sister-loved one is just a totally different person. And so obviously, it's because the spirits in the blood, and that's now, now they are a different person. The weird thing about that is they totally ignore the possibility that a incident that requires a blood transfusion is a life changing experience! He's probably traumatized. It's things like cancer and major accidents, while recognizing your own mortality. Sometimes it's all it takes to really change how you want to deal with the world around you. It's a weird thing to hear people say, but I mean, the facts are the facts. They behave differently. Sure, fine. Or maybe you're reading more into it than is real, and they haven't changed as much as you think. But you expect them to be different because there's this idea of a different soul in the body. Katie Dooley  27:02Sounds like...Preston Meyer  27:03it's a spectrum. I can't say that it's all one thing or all the other, but I bet you it's a mix of the twoKatie Dooley  27:09Totally. So there's three Bible passages that Jehovah's Witnesses cite for not accepting blood transfusions, so I'm gonna read them so we can get Preston's hot take on themPreston Meyer  27:19PerfectKatie Dooley  27:19first- and who knows how-Preston Meyer  27:20I like it. Katie Dooley  27:21So Genesis nine "for you shall not eat flesh with its life. That is, its blood."Preston Meyer  27:28All right. So part of the context that we have here is, this is a document of how the Lord's people should be different than their neighbours. What makes them different. A lot of the people around them their neighbours, would ritually consume blood.Katie Dooley  27:48That's blood in the mouth?Preston Meyer  27:50Yes, eating blood.Katie Dooley  27:52I think we need that to be clear.Preston Meyer  27:54I have eaten blood, or a blood adjacent substance, on a, on a few occasions. It is delicious.Katie Dooley  28:06As someone who enjoys a good black pudding, yes. I prefer white pudding though, which doesn't have the blood. But I won't say no to the black pudding. Preston Meyer  28:14Right. So you can take my interpretation of this however you want, I suppose. I don't think that there is a spiritual reason. I think this is more of a this separates the people of Israel from their neighbours. Just another way to mark that we are different from them kind of deal. Katie Dooley  28:35All right.Preston Meyer  28:36And I mean building an us versus them philosophy isn't the healthiest choice. But here we are.Katie Dooley  28:43In Genesis, what makes a Jewish person a Jewish person, right?Preston Meyer  28:46I mean, that's really what Genesis and the tour of the Tanakh are all about.Katie Dooley  28:51Alright, so the next one is Leviticus 17:10. "If anyone of the house of Israel or of the aliens who reside among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut that person off from the people." Preston Meyer  29:07So-Katie Dooley  29:08that God speaking? Preston Meyer  29:09Yeah.Katie Dooley  29:09Wow.Preston Meyer  29:10So the short version of this is, if this person insists on eating blood, they will be excommunicated. Or exiled, depending on whether or not the church has a monopoly on national politics. Excommunicated if they're out in an area that's diverse like ours, exiled from the nation if you have a monopoly.Katie Dooley  29:37And again, this is blood in the mouth?Preston Meyer  29:39Yes. Do not eat bloodKatie Dooley  29:41Okay, because this is where I-Preston Meyer  29:43and it doesn't actually mean human blood. Cannibalism is an entirely separate law. This is don't eat the blood of the cattle and the livestock and the pigeons and everything else that you bring in for sacrifices,Katie Dooley  29:57Right, which is part of the kosher process. Preston Meyer  29:59Yeah.Katie Dooley  30:00That seems super fun. Acts 15:28 to 29. "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials. That you have seen from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourself from these, you will do well. Farewell."Preston Meyer  30:22I mean, I like having such a short list very convenient. Don't eat things that are sacrificed to false gods. Easy. Generally speaking, though, there are other parts where Paul does specifically say you know what? It's okay to eat something sacrificed to idols, if that's all there is to eat. Just remember, the gods aren't real. But be grateful that you have something to eat. So, even in these essentials- Katie Dooley  30:55There's still an asterisk!Preston Meyer  30:56There's an asterisk yeah. But again, don't eat blood is still on the list.Katie Dooley  31:03So again, blood in the mouth. Preston Meyer  31:05Yes. Do not eat from these animals that you need. And then of course, there's don't eat anything that's been strangled. WhichKatie Dooley  31:19the meat would be tough.Preston Meyer  31:22It's better to quick kill rather than choke. Because then it's got fight in it.Katie Dooley  31:27Yeah. All the muscles not-Preston Meyer  31:29Yeah.Katie Dooley  31:30I'm gonna be plugged meat. And then don't have sex.Preston Meyer  31:35Which Yeah, totally unrelated to the previous three things. While fornication isn't just sex, fornication is extramarital sex.Katie Dooley  31:45Oh, specific.Preston Meyer  31:46Yeah, fornication is dirty sex. I it's, it's specifically that sex which is unapproved by society.Katie Dooley  31:55Well, wait till next episode.Preston Meyer  32:00Yeah, we'll get a little more details there for you. But yeah, so in Old and New Testament for the Christians who are super concerned about it. That's the deal, is that you should not EAT ANIMAL BLOOD.Katie Dooley  32:15So they don't let you take any blood. Even if it's not in your mouth.Preston Meyer  32:21Yeah, life-saving apparently not that big a deal. If it's your time to go. It's your time to go kind of philosophy. Which sucks if you could have survived with the tools available to you.Katie Dooley  32:32Now there are bloodless surgeries and blood alternatives.Preston Meyer  32:40Which sounds really weird. Katie Dooley  32:42I mean, I'm kind of that person. Like, if you can have the real thing. Why wouldn't you have the real thing? Like if you're not allergic to milk? Or lactose intolerant. Why would you squeeze the shit out of an almond?Preston Meyer  32:54Right?!?Katie Dooley  32:56Like, you know, and I mean, I get lactose intolerance is a thing. Don't get me wrong.Preston Meyer  33:02I'm lactose intolerant. I have- Katie Dooley  33:04I didn't know that!Preston Meyer  33:05way more dairy in my diet than I should.Katie Dooley  33:10The fact that I didn't know that you're lactose intolerant until this moment tells you that you do.Preston Meyer  33:15I'm lactose-sensitive, not lactose intolerant. I correct that there are times when I am way more sensitive than at other times. The night before I got married. Katie Dooley  33:28Ohno, ohno!Preston Meyer  33:29We stopped at one of the great drive-throughs and got the classic, real good, absolutely delicious milkshake. And I was ruined by the time...Katie Dooley  33:41Ohhh you, noooo!Preston Meyer  33:45So everyone else is setting up the chapel for decorations and the tables and everything. And I was just camped out somewhere else. But this week, I've gone through a whole litre of eggnog and plenty of milk and no issues. Katie Dooley  34:04All right, well. So yeah, I mean, I guess like I said before, it's great to say you don't accept a blood transfusion until you're one of the 4.5 million people a year in North America that needs one.Preston Meyer  34:16I'm curious because I haven't been able to find anything. And maybe I just need to talk to somebody who's got specific religious authority to make such a declaration, how they might feel higher up among the witnesses about synthetic blood. I don't know how they'll feel about that.Katie Dooley  34:38Members that willingly and knowingly accept blood transfusions are often disfellowshipped. And generally, like I said, they when witnesses are encouraged for medical help other than this weird blood thing, which I feel like they haven't run by God ever but what do I know?Preston Meyer  34:54Right. And a similar limitation for some reason the Amish and some other Mennonites but not all Mennonites believe that the spirit specifically lives in the heart. And you know, if you're watching a movie and you get to a real emotional part and you feel a twinge in your heart, I can see why they might come to that conclusion. Katie Dooley  35:18When you see your husband who I haven't seen in three weeks!Preston Meyer  35:22Right?! When you feel that in your chest, it does make sense that you can believe your spirit resides in or near your heart fine. Feels a little bit weird, but I get it. So specifically, the Amish, while they have a tricky relationship with modern medicine, they do specifically avoid anything that would be even close to a heart transplant, because that's the soul. And yet, there's sometimes exceptions to that...Katie Dooley  35:55Asterisk! It's a spectrum!Preston Meyer  35:59Yeah. There have been children who have been born with heart defects that are so severe that before baptism, because as an Anabaptist, you are baptized later in life instead of as a child. Like in the Catholic tradition. They are okay with a heart transplant in a young child... sometimes.Katie Dooley  36:23Asterisk. I was born with a hole in my heart, maybe that's why I'm an atheist.Preston Meyer  36:28Is it a Jesus-shaped hole in your heart?Katie Dooley  36:29I don't... I don't know. I, that was 32 years ago.Preston Meyer  36:35Is the hole still there?Katie Dooley  36:36No it healed up.Preston Meyer  36:37It just healed up? Katie Dooley  36:38Yep. Sometimes they heal up on their own. Sometimes they need surgery to make the switch.Preston Meyer  36:41Well see that's the weird thing about making people from a clump of cells is that when you're born, you still got a lot of growing to do.Katie Dooley  36:51So apparently, I looked into this like a million years ago, apparently, like when you're born and finally get oxygen. It is supposed to just like happen. The chambers in your heart close up to what they're supposed to be and mine didn't.Preston Meyer  37:03huh!Katie Dooley  37:04Yeah!Preston Meyer  37:05So that's the thing I don't know much about. But that is cool.Katie Dooley  37:08Yeah. Science!Preston Meyer  37:10Check out our bonus episode on abortion!  right. It's, it's weird how many churches insist that the Bible says that a baby is a murderable person, before they're born, when the Bible was pretty clear on the detail of, "And he breathed and became a living soul." Now, you're allowed to take that symbolically. But when you do that, you no longer have the Bible backing you up when you say that a baby is alive from conception, or from six months in or whatever. Whatever your arbitrary time is. The Bible doesn't have your back, for any point before birth! Yeah, we get into a lot more detail there!Katie Dooley  37:51The next one we're going to talk about are Christian scientists or the Church of Christ, comma scientists is their official name. Preston Meyer  38:08This, this group-Katie Dooley  38:10and guess what Preston they hate science.Preston Meyer  38:14So this, I've run into a couple of these people over the years that we've got a Christian Science Center downtown. And I've been trying to figure out for a while, how they can get away with feeling comfortable using the word science, and that they call themselves scientists, and absolutely deny the scientific method! The scientific collection of knowledge that we've amassed. I don't get it. Katie Dooley  38:51We will eventually. Again, just like Jehovah's Witnesses we will do a full episode on Christian scientists at some point, but we're just gonna dive into the medical stuff for today's episode.  The Church of Christ scientists was founded by Mary Baker Eddy in the 19th century. And it can actually be traced back. For more if you remember our last episode to Phineas Quimby, the mesmerist!!Preston Meyer  39:00Yeah.  Yeah, so she was a patient of his! Katie Dooley  39:18Oh, cool!Preston Meyer  39:19Yeah! So that's where this connection comes in. So I did a little bit of more research on this Quimby fella and oh what a trip! So oh...Katie Dooley  39:31so Phineas Quimby... I'll let you read your your research but finance can be started that new thought movement which turned also into the prosperity gospel that name it and claim itPreston Meyer  39:41Yeah, Dr. PP Quimby which I didn't make up to make this humorous. This is how he styled himselfKatie Dooley  39:52This is amazing! And I love that we both are so mature that we can just laugh at Dr. PP!Preston Meyer  39:58I'm not sure he was a real Dr.Katie Dooley  40:01WHAT?!?Preston Meyer  40:02I mean, as you learn more about this fella, you'll see why that could have been a problem.   But Dr. Phineas PP. Quimby was a clockmaker. You don't need a doctorate to be a clockmaker-Katie Dooley  40:09Yes.  No you don't to be a clockmakerPreston Meyer  40:21I mean, you do need tools. Yeah, for sure. And he was convinced that he had found the key to the science of health. This is where the Christian scientists adopted the word and never validated it ever again. The science of health, which of course, is, it's all in your head!Katie Dooley  40:47Yet it's it's not. Your feelings and physical ailments are all-Preston Meyer  40:53Yeah, this gaping wound in my leg that's making a huge mess of the kitchen is all in my head.Katie Dooley  41:03No, it's all on the kitchen floor!Preston Meyer  41:07Anyway, Quimby's theory was that there is no intelligence, no power or action in matter of itself. That the spiritual world to which our eyes are closed by ignorance or unbelief, is the real world that in it lie all the causes for every effect visible in the natural world. And then if the spiritual life can be revealed to us, in other words, if we can understand ourselves, we shall then have our happiness or misery in our own hands. That sounds really nice.Katie Dooley  41:42Oh, and I believe some of it-Preston Meyer  41:44Sure!Katie Dooley  41:45we talked, again, we talked about this for prosperity. If you're a positive person, your life will feel more positive. Preston Meyer  41:50Yeah.Katie Dooley  41:51But this does not account for gaping leg wounds!Preston Meyer  41:55No, or viral infections, bacterial problems! There's a lot of things that you can't control with positive thinking. And this is a proven fact.Katie Dooley  42:06Yes.Preston Meyer  42:07So, interestingly enough, he was a very busy man. Quimby was treating several patients every day, almost every single day for years, which would be normal if he was a doctor. But he wasn't really a doctor. He would sit next to his patients and explain that their ailment was just in their minds, and that they could control it just by thinking really hard about it. Just convince yourself that everything's fine and it will be! If it was easy to convince yourself of something that wasn't so easy to believe. And then it got weird. Sometimes he would rub their heads with his wet hands. Katie Dooley  42:50Ew! Why were they wet???Preston Meyer  42:52Oh, he would dip his hands in water too, and just rub their heads. He later explained that it was the words that did the help. Not the contact with the wet hands. So presumably he was just rubbing their heads with wet hands for his own enjoyment?Katie Dooley  43:10That is a very specific fetish, but we don't kink shame at the Holy Watermelon Podcast.Preston Meyer  43:15True story.Katie Dooley  43:16But we do fake Dr. shame! So carry on!Preston Meyer  43:20cause people are weird!Katie Dooley  43:25There's various fetishes and rubbing.Preston Meyer  43:28I'm okay with if that's your fetish. That's fine. Our-Katie Dooley  43:32Is there consent?Preston Meyer  43:34That's my question! Are these people participating with informed consent? In what is probably a sexual fetish.Katie Dooley  43:44Probably not because it's the 1800's.Preston Meyer  43:47Yeah...consent was a tough discussion back then-Katie Dooley  43:49Actually still a tough discussion, but that's a different episode! Preston Meyer  43:52But at least it's becoming more mainstream. Now.Katie Dooley  43:54Did you know 55% of Canadian men don't actually know what constitutes as consent?Preston Meyer  44:00That's an alarming statisticKatie Dooley  44:02Yeah. A study came out recently.Preston Meyer  44:07Members of Congress are outing themselves all over the place right now saying, Oh, if we have the liberal wrought laws of consent, I would be a sex criminal!Katie Dooley  44:17That means you're a sex criminal!Preston Meyer  44:19Why would why would you say that?Katie Dooley  44:22That means you're a sex criminal. Carry on.Preston Meyer  44:27Anyway, Quimby met Mary Baker Eddy in 1862 when she became his patient. And she was already into the the weird spiritual thing. Yeah, which is fine. It's what she started doing with it after she met Quimby that makes it easy to label her as full crazy.Katie Dooley  44:49So Eddy basically thought the world was the matrix and the only real world was the spiritual world. And we've created this physical world in our minds.Preston Meyer  44:59Neil deGrasse Tyson talks a little bit about how the world is, and the universe is probably just a simulation. So is that really all that different? They both sound crazy.Katie Dooley  45:11They both do sound crazy. I mean, we're getting into philosophy, and it already hurts my head is trying to formulate this sentence, but like,Preston Meyer  45:21The trick is, it's really easy to believe that the world isn't. The world is as concrete as it looks and feels. But I mean, the things that we found out by just scoping down on to the molecular level is even solid rocks are mostly empty space. Katie Dooley  45:39Yeah.Preston Meyer  45:41So it gets pretty easy to say, wow, yeah, there's there's a lot of magic going on here. What is what? Who knows? But it feels like, we're getting some pretty interesting fictions.Katie Dooley  45:56Yes. So Eddie also wrote a book called Science and Health, which in addition to the Bible is considered a holy book in the Church of Christ scientists.Preston Meyer  46:06Yeah, it's pretty normal to have the founding person's literature as part of your Canon.Katie Dooley  46:12It seems like there isn't a lot of Christ in Church of Christ scientists. Preston Meyer  46:16Well, they still have the Bible.Katie Dooley  46:17Yeah.Preston Meyer  46:17It's just secondary to you have the divine power yourself to heal all your problems.Katie Dooley  46:25This goes back to my earlier point, is that I am starting to like JC-Preston Meyer  46:29not the fanclub. Katie Dooley  46:30Not the fanclub, all right.Preston Meyer  46:33That's fair. Katie Dooley  46:33OkayPreston Meyer  46:35Yeah, it's interesting that members of the Church of Christ scientists aren't strictly prohibited from seeking medical attention, but they do avoid it an awful lot. Instead, they just pray. And it's not like your regular prayer. That's like, it's never do the Lord's Prayer, and everything's gonna be fine. It's kind of a, you need to go find a place where you can argue with yourself for a while, just like Mary did with the Nez MarusKatie Dooley  47:04Yeah, not even. Yeah. You like, it's weird. I read some instructions on how to pray. And basically, you just like, fight yourself to not feel sick anymore. Preston Meyer  47:14Yeah!Katie Dooley  47:14So I am like to Jesus or God, it's like "Don't be sick Katie!"Preston Meyer  47:19Right?!Katie Dooley  47:20Don't be sick!Preston Meyer  47:21which sounds like not just counterproductive, because you're not getting the help you need. But you're tiring yourself out more. So if you were fighting an infection, you're probably worse off than if you hadn't had this internal conflicKatie Dooley  47:37I just watch Fraggle Rock when I'm sick. Preston Meyer  47:39Yeah. Does it help?Katie Dooley  47:40Yeah.Preston Meyer  47:40That's good. Filling your life with positivity is helpful. And there's there's a lot to be said about the placebo effect. That doesn't mean don't seek actual help when there's something wrong that needs help.Katie Dooley  47:57Absolutely. There are reports though, even though they aren't specifically prohibited from seeking medical treatment, that members that do opt for medical treatment are often ostracized.Preston Meyer  48:09Yeah, but you can hire somebody from the church to come and help you out. You can get a healer, which is like a doctor, but they're making money off of lying to you.Katie Dooley  48:22It's actually a Christian Science practitioner, and they're very good at praying!Preston Meyer  48:27Are they?Katie Dooley  48:29That's what they're trained to do!Preston Meyer  48:32So I'll just 11 years well, 12 years ago, now, I guess. There was a practitioner named Frank Prince Wonderlic. If I'm not writing that pronunciation, I'm at least close. Put his his name in the show notes. He said... "all healing is a metaphysical process. That means that there is no person to be healed. No material body, no patient, no matter, no illness, no one to heal, no substance, no person, no thing and no place that needs to be influenced. This is what the practitioner must first be clear about."Katie Dooley  49:08It sounds very Scientology.Preston Meyer  49:11A little bit yeah! So, I mean, the problem that I have, right off the beginning is, there is nobody that needs to be healed or influenced. When your job is to heal people. Maybe that's not the thing you should be saying.Katie Dooley  49:28What are you charging for?Preston Meyer  49:31Right? I mean, basically, he's standing here saying, either you don't exist, or you do but nothing else does. So you got nothing to worry about. Which I mean, it may be an extreme interpretation of those words, but that feels really weird when you say there's nothing that needs to be influenced. You're either saying there is no disease at all, or it's not a problem and there is a disease and it is a problem. It's frustrating. And at least 50 Christian scientists have been charged with murder after the children died of very preventable illnesses. Now, of course, it's not first-degree murder that requires premeditation. And the situation is a little premeditated, but not to the degree where it actually counts as premeditated murder.Katie Dooley  50:29Then it would be manslaughter in Canada.Preston Meyer  50:30Exactly.Katie Dooley  50:31Where I think it's third-degree murder in the States is our manslaughter. Preston Meyer  50:35Yeah.Katie Dooley  50:37LDS!Preston Meyer  50:39Yeah, the LDS tradition is a much healthier place relative to this issue. I'll admit it's a mixed bag, there are a lot of converts to the church who come from a wide variety of backgrounds. A lot of people have believed that you really should just pray and not see a doctor when something is wrong. That if you're having mental health problems, or physical health problems, pray about it, eat your vitamins, get your essential oils, and maybe talk to the bishop for counselling. Most of those are not very good choices, including the last one, your bishop is very seldom a properly trained therapist. But there are cases where he is, and he deserves to be paid for that.Katie Dooley  51:31But talk about these elder blessings, because I've heard about it in passing, just being your friend.Preston Meyer  51:36Yeah? So while there are encouragement to seek medical attention, there is also encouragement to get a blessing from an elder of the church comes with an anointing of virgin olive oil, and all that fun stuff. And typically, we laid- lay hands on somebody's head and give a blessing of whatever is needed. Very often, there's a promise that you'll be healed. But this does not take the place of seeking medical attention. It is very explicitly stated over the pulpit regularly from the very top that it should not take the place of seeking medical attention.Katie Dooley  52:17Well, that's good.Preston Meyer  52:18Yeah. Even though some people have a hard time with that. Spectrum! No, church is monolithic. I've given lots of blessings, and that's not because I believe that it's going to fix everything and that you need to go, just pray afterwards. No, sometimes you should get medical attention, depending on what the situation is. Yeah, I don't know. The president of the Church throughout the COVID crisis was a world-renowned heart surgeon, we've got a serious commitment to actually making sure people are healthy, that we can stick around for a long time. The Latter-Day Saints are in some communities longer lived than average. SoKatie Dooley  53:01Because you don't drink do drugs or anything!Preston Meyer  53:03I mean, that's probably a bigger contri-contributor, though, we have our own vices. There's a there's an awful lot of Latter Day Saints who eat a lot more sugar than they ought to.Katie Dooley  53:15That's gonna say from the ones I know. Yes. You all feel personally attacked now, I'm so sorry!Preston Meyer  53:25But to be fair, the entirety of North American culture with a handful of specific localized exceptions, we eat way more sugar than we really should. So are Mormons to stand out there? Not so much.Katie Dooley  53:40Well Okay! Seventh Day Adventists. Again, another Christian denomination, they are typically vegetarians.Preston Meyer  53:49Pretty often.Katie Dooley  53:50And so they're comfortable with seeking medicine and modern medical and health practices, but they have know, have been known to prefer holistic medicine, kind of in line with that vegetarian thing. So they've been known to follow holistic medicine, which is a phrase that has been used by people who oppose medical treatment, but good doctors also talk about the necessity of keeping the whole body healthy, which is holistic. SoPreston Meyer  54:18yeah. Dr. Mike even talks about it sometimes.Katie Dooley  54:22Is that the YouTube one? Preston Meyer  54:23yeah,Katie Dooley  54:24That's kind of cute? Both Hosts  54:25Yeah.Preston Meyer  54:26He's a handsome man.Katie Dooley  54:27He's very handsome. An Adventist family hit the news in 2014 for failing to get their son proper medical care after being diagnosed with rickets. Preston Meyer  54:36You don't hear about rickets very often!Katie Dooley  54:38That's what Tiny Tim had or they speculated it, it's not actually written the book.Preston Meyer  54:42I mean, it's it's a work of fiction, soKatie Dooley  54:45and then in it's always sunny.Preston Meyer  54:48Rickety Cricket!Katie Dooley  54:49Rickety Cricket!Preston Meyer  54:52Yeah, you know, but, I mean, we put vitamin D in so many things now. Katie Dooley  54:56YesPreston Meyer  54:57Like we encourage children to have cereal with a bowl of milk and all of our milk that you get at the grocery store today has vitamin D in it.Katie Dooley  55:05Yeah. So rickets is preventable with vitamin D. Preston Meyer  55:07Yeah.Katie Dooley  55:08So, yeah, it's pretty easy to get. So that's really bad.Preston Meyer  55:13Pretty easy to not get rickets.Katie Dooley  55:15Yeah, I mean, it's pretty easy to get vitamin D Yeah, it really is not easy to get, rickets. So it must be known that they got sucked into the anti medi-medic trap despite warnings from their church.Preston Meyer  55:30Yeah, this is not a normal thing within this religious community. There there is even a network of Seventh Day Adventists hospitals where they actually perform real medicine. So it's, it's weird to see this kind of news hit where a family within this religious community just doesn't want to get involved in medicine.Katie Dooley  55:31Yep. Now we've been pretty hard on Christians. This episode, specific Christian denominations. Preston Meyer  56:03Yeah.Katie Dooley  56:04Spectrum, we know it's not all Christians. ButPreston Meyer  56:06one, it's not even all people within the dominant denominations we've talked about.Katie Dooley  56:10Right, like I said...Preston Meyer  56:12Nothing is monolithic.Katie Dooley  56:13Yes, so on your deathbed, if you need a blood transfusion, you might change your mind real fast! And people have. Preston Meyer  56:19Yeah!Katie Dooley  56:19But we also see it in other religions.Preston Meyer  56:22Yeah, the Hindu tradition is kind of interesting, where generally speaking, medicine is favorably talked about. In fact, when we talked about Hinduism, in our introductory episode, there is a whole part of their religious philosophy that deals with different kinds of medicine. How that translates to the modern things can get a little bit fuzzy. But generally speaking, it's pretty positive, because the Vedas were written 1000s of years ago. But it's kind of cool. But there is, of course, a lot of prejudice against doctors from overseas coming to North America. Do they live up to the same medical standards? Investigation always has to go into it, and they usually end up becoming taxi drivers or literally anything else that's easy to get into. Because getting into the doctor's office again, it's really complicated. Katie Dooley  57:12Yeah, there needs to be some better international cooperation there. BecausePreston Meyer  57:17well, and we do have some doctors who make it and become doctors hereKatie Dooley  57:20Oh absolutely! Preston Meyer  57:20-relatively quickly. But it's yeah, it's not 100% thing. It's really frustrating. And the interesting thing that I think is worth bringing up here is that while they're cool with medicine, they actually do have an issue as... If they're really into their Hindu faith. Of they have an issue with using animal products in their medicine! Any animal juices! Katie Dooley  57:27Gelatin often quite-Preston Meyer  57:47Yeah, we use a lot of different animals stuff in our medicine, which sounds really weird until you actually know a lot about it. And it's like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a natural choice. I'm not an expert. I just trust the people who are.Katie Dooley  57:59Fair.Preston Meyer  58:00Sihks follow the same Hindu principles. This comes with the whole vegan vegetarian thing that care for the animals. It's not about keeping the body, non animal keeping it pure. It's about respect for the animals. So of course, our First Nations people here in North America are more positive about using the whole animal respecting the animal, but take what you need, and be responsible and respectful with what's left make find a use for it, if you can. So really different way of looking at the world there. Yeah, Islam is interesting that they have similar restrictions to Sikhs and Hindus, but not the same. That you absolutely cannot use any material that comes from swine. swine is haram. But animal products from cows, for example, is fine.Katie Dooley  58:53Medical Products from cows. Yes, you said animal products from cows. Which that's true, that is not untrue! Preston Meyer  58:59It's not what i meant-Katie Dooley  59:00Its not specific enoughPreston Meyer  59:01medical products in cows. So I thought that was really interesting. Because you would be haram if you were part pig, I guess. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm haram anyway. According to their laws.Katie Dooley  59:14I mean, yeah, I own a dog soPreston Meyer  59:17Oh yeah, there you go. Katie Dooley  59:17AlreadyPreston Meyer  59:18Troubles.Katie Dooley  59:19Yeah.Preston Meyer  59:21Of course, there are exceptions life or death emergencies are validation enough to ignore these prohibitions. Of course, there are a lot more available here in the West, where there's not preexisting prohibitions. Some people like their books more than they like their children. SoKatie Dooley  59:38I was gonna make sassy comment, but I will refrain for once. I like books better than children. I said it, I said it.Preston Meyer  59:47That's fair, but they're not your children.Katie Dooley  59:49That's true and I have no interest.Preston Meyer  59:51Do you like your books more than Paige?Katie Dooley  59:53No, I would save Paige in a fire but not my books. Preston Meyer  59:55See? That's how it goes.Katie Dooley  59:57FairPreston Meyer  59:58And that feels like the right choice. Katie Dooley  59:59Thank you! Preston Meyer  1:00:00And Paige isn't even human.Katie Dooley  1:00:03But she is real!Preston Meyer  1:00:04Yes. She is real!Katie Dooley  1:00:06She's a little dog. Yeah, I'll post the picture in Discord just 'cause I like her.Preston Meyer  1:00:11Yup. And a few years ago, I heard this great poem from Tim Minchin who we actually mentioned ever so briefly in a, in our most recent interview episode. Storm is the name of the poem by Tim Minchin, and this, this little snippet is just perfect. "Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine!" And that's the deal. It's, I can't think of any better way to explain it. I couldn't get a doctor to say it in a more beautiful wayKatie Dooley  1:00:49Judas would say something like that... Yeah, so we were pretty hard on people today. But that's okay.Preston Meyer  1:00:59That's okay. I don't think we've alienated anybody. Katie Dooley  1:01:02No I think it's, I mean, that's why we exist, is to have conversations about religion, and maybe push some boundaries on beliefs, because no group will get better if we don't.Preston Meyer  1:01:16Right. Whether you're Christian, Buddhist, or just really into snails, or atheist. Generally, the best way to run through this life is by caring about each other as people and wanting the best for each other. And that means saving lives when we can in the effective ways through proven methods.Katie Dooley  1:01:42You know, what, everyone? In addition to following us on Discord and our Instagram and Facebook this week, I encourage you all to go and donate some blood!Preston Meyer  1:01:53I think that's the best civic thing that we can all handle. Unless, of course,Katie Dooley  1:02:01unless you can't. Preston Meyer  1:02:01Yeah.Katie Dooley  1:02:04You can also support us on our Patreon, where we have early release and bonus episodes and our book club. Thank you to patron Lisa for supporting our podcast. And if the subscription model is not your thing, you can also check out our spread shop where we have some amazing Holy Watermelon merch to make you look fancy in this new year.Preston Meyer  1:02:26Thanks for joining us! Both Hosts  1:02:27Peace be with you!

Discovering Jesus in the New Testament #01 Jesus My Redeemer By Louie Marsh, 1-8-2023 Top 10 New Year's Resolutions   10) Spend More Time with family 9) Fall in love 8) Help others fulfill their dreams 7) Quit smoking 6) Learn Something exciting 5) Stay fit and healthy 4) Enjoy life to the fullest 3) Spend less, save more 2) Get organized 1) Lose weight!   1) Jesus came to BUY ME BACK out of slavery to sin.   Redemption =  "a ransom or price of release," and was used of buying or setting free slaves.   “45For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”” (Mark 10:45, ESV)   The word “ransom” is lutron (λυτρον) “the price for redeeming, the ransom paid for slaves - Kenneth S. Wuest, Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English Reader   This means apart from Jesus we are ALL SLAVES!   2) What am I redeemed from?   Spiritual DEATH.   “4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—” (Ephesians 2:4–5, ESV)   MORAL   “13waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” (Titus 2:13–14, ESV)   3) What was the PRICE of redemption?   The Incarnation –   “6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (Philippians 2:6–8, ESV)   His DEATH on the Cross.   “18knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.” (1 Peter 1:18–19, ESV)   Jesus gave more than his life – he gave his SOUL to redeem me.   “45…and to give his life as a ransom for many.”” (Mark 10:45, ESV)   “life” = psuche = soul.   Jesus took God's WRATH so I don't have too.   “24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:24–26, ESV)   Emil Brunner wrote this daring sentence, "The wrath of God is the love of God."   4) The Results of Redemption   God is NEVER angry at me!   “16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.” (1 John 4:16–18, ESV)   God WANTS me in His Forever Family!   “4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,…7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,” (Ephesians 1:4–7, ESV)   God will never GIVE UP on me!   “3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.(1 Peter 1:3–5, ESV)   “11The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 13if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.” (2 Timothy 2:11–13, ESV)      

Christmas Day The Collect: O God, you make us glad by the yearly festival of the birth of your only Son Jesus Christ: Grant that we, who joyfully receive him as our Redeemer, may with sure confidence behold him when he comes to be our Judge; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen. or this O God, you have caused this holy night to shine with the brightness of the true Light: Grant that we, who have known the mystery of that Light on earth, may also enjoy him perfectly in heaven; where with you and the Holy Spirit he lives and reigns, one God, in glory everlasting. Amen. or this Almighty God, you have given your only-begotten Son to take our nature upon him, and to be born [this day] of a pure virgin: Grant that we, who have been born again and made your children by adoption and grace, may daily be renewed by your Holy Spirit; through our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom with you and the same Spirit be honor and glory, now and for ever. Amen. Old Testament: Isaiah 9:2-7 2The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who lived in a land of deep darkness— on them light has shined. 3You have multiplied the nation, you have increased its joy; they rejoice before you as with joy at the harvest, as people exult when dividing plunder. 4For the yoke of their burden, and the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor, you have broken as on the day of Midian. 5For all the boots of the tramping warriors and all the garments rolled in blood shall be burned as fuel for the fire. 6For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7His authority shall grow continually, and there shall be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. Psalm: Psalm 96 1 Sing to the Lord a new song; *        sing to the Lord, all the whole earth. 2 Sing to the Lord and bless his Name; *        proclaim the good news of his salvation from day to day. 3 Declare his glory among the nations *        and his wonders among all peoples. 4 For great is the Lord and greatly to be praised; *        he is more to be feared than all gods. 5 As for all the gods of the nations, they are but idols; *        but it is the Lord who made the heavens. 6 Oh, the majesty and magnificence of his presence! *        Oh, the power and the splendor of his sanctuary! 7 Ascribe to the Lord, you families of the peoples; *        ascribe to the Lord honor and power. 8 Ascribe to the Lord the honor due his Name; *        bring offerings and come into his courts. 9 Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness; *        let the whole earth tremble before him. 10 Tell it out among the nations: “The Lord is King! *        he has made the world so firm that it cannot be moved;        he will judge the peoples with equity.” 11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad;    let the sea thunder and all that is in it; *         let the field be joyful and all that is therein. 12 Then shall all the trees of the wood shout for joy    before the Lord when he comes, *        when he comes to judge the earth. 13 He will judge the world with righteousness *        and the peoples with his truth. Epistle: Titus 2:11-14 11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all, 12training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and in the present age to live lives that are self-controlled, upright, and godly, 13while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. 14He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. Gospel: Luke 2:1-14 (15-20) 1In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3All went to their own towns to be registered. 4Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. 5He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child.6While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn. 8In that region there were shepherds living in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9Then an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for see—I am bringing you good news of great joy for all the people: 11to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is the Messiah, the Lord. 12This will be a sign for you: you will find a child wrapped in bands of cloth and lying in a manger.” 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying, 14“Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace among those whom he favors!” [15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go now to Bethlehem and see this thing that has taken place, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16So they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the child lying in the manger. 17When they saw this, they made known what had been told them about this child; 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds told them. 19But Mary treasured all these words and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.]

Bible Talk on Hebrews 4:16So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.https://livesteadyon.com/Email Angie at: steadyonpodcast@gmail.comFacebook: @livesteadyonInstagram: @angiebaughman421Stay connected with Steady On with the links found here: https://linktr.ee/livesteadyonInterested in the Step By Step Bible study method?Download the FREE Masterclass here: https://linktr.ee/livesteadyonhttps://susiecrosby.com/Facebook: @susiecrosbyauthorInstagram: @susiecrosbySusie's devotional, “Just One Word: 90 Devotions to Invite Jesus In” is available wherever Christian books are sold.Listen here to Angie's conversation with Dr. Sasha Shillcutt: https://livesteadyon.com/2022/12/14/brave-boundaries-with-dr-sasha-stillcutt/Theme music:Heartwarming by Kevin MacLeodLink: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3864-heartwarmingLicense: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0Midroll musicMistletoe Magic by Avocado Junkie

Who is Joe?Joe runs a professional recording studio in York UK that offer a wide range of audio production services for every company and individual, big or small for any type of use. This includes stuff such as podcasts, audiobooks, training resources, online courses, music and everything in-between.Key Takeaways1. Outsourcing your podcast recording can take the strain away allowing you to concentrate on content* Podcasts are just business conversations and nothing to fear - anyone can start one!Valuable Free Resource or Actionhttps://innersoundaudio.co.uk/podcast-studioA video version of this podcast is available on YouTube : _________________________________________________________________________________________________Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at  apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:1. Download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/1pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way2. Join The Complete Approach Facebook Group :  https://TCA.fyi/fb Connect with like-minded individuals who are all about growth and increasing revenue. It's a Facebook community where we make regular posts aimed at inspiring conversations in a supportive environment. It's completely free and purposely aimed at expanding and building networks.3. Join our Success to Soar Program and get TIME and FREEDOM. : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Success-to-SoarIf you're doing 10-50k a month right now: I'm working with a few business owners like you to change that, without working nights and weekends. If you'd like to get back that Time and still Scale, check the link above.4. Work with me privatelyIf you'd like to work directly with me and my team to take you from 5 figure to 6 and multi 6 figure months, whilst reducing reliance on you. Click on https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/DiscoveryCall  tell me about your business and what you'd like to work on together, and I'll get you all the details.————————————————————————————————————————————-TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSpodcast, people, business, joe, microphone, studio, recording, customers, suppose, world, brainer, b2b, thinking, realise, conversations, camera, documentaries, question, company, audio recordingSPEAKERSStuart Webb, Joe GravesStuart Webb  00:25Hi, and welcome back to it's not rocket science five questions over coffee. I'm here today with Joe, Joe Graves who with his brother, I think it is Joe isn't it runs in York, you do things like podcasts, audio books, training materials. So it's like, and Joe's got a huge amount of experience in this recording business. So he knows a lot more about how to record things than I do. So I'm sure we're gonna learn a lot from talking to Joe about how to go about making your podcast etc, better. So Joe, welcome to It's not rocket science, five questions over coffee.Joe Graves  01:00Thank you very much for having me.Stuart Webb  01:01I hope you've got a cup of coffee in front of you. And I hope you'reJoe Graves  01:05it's too late in the day for me to have coffee. And I'm like,Stuart Webb  01:09Joe, tell us a little bit about who it is you help with your recording studio and the sort of problems they've got when they come to you.Joe Graves  01:16So at the minute, it's, it's funny, it's changed massively over the past year or so for 10 years, actually a little longer. It was we were recording bands and music. And we were in that world for a long time. To the point where we're even living in in Arizona for a while I like working straight for labels and stuff. But as time has gone on, I'm like I'm 31 now, stuff has changed. Since I've got into the game. You're you become passionate about different things. And obviously as you as you run a business, you become heavily interested in how you run businesses and you start learning you reading books, reading books on running a business and all that and speaking to people like yourself and your calibre take a massive interest in that. So that's when we started taking a bit of a turn into a set of public services, as opposed to recording music and mixing music, such as podcasts, you know, work and do more b2b stuff. So yeah, now we focus a lot on that. And I would say 90% of our customers are of our businesses. And they're not really restricted in what kinds of businesses they are, for example, we do. Like say we produce audiobooks from top to bottom for some of the largest publishers in the world, such as Strathmore, like St to Audible stuff, you know, things like that we do a lot of podcasts for companies, such as Federation of small businesses, who are, you know, some of the biggest business consultants in the entire UK you know, as well as some smaller companies like we have gyms, you know, sort of professional athletes come in, they interview other professional athletes on mindset, things like that. So, then the game is quite wide. And you know, how you can use podcast to grow your business. And it's really just about connecting with your audience, which is, I suppose the angle we take on it, because that's what I believe podcasts do. And this is kind of like what we're doing now gives people an opportunity to see or hear Yeah, learn from you. That just allows you to feel like you know, people have when you know, people, it's easy to do business with them. So that's the route we thinkStuart Webb  03:18it's that no, like, trust thing, isn't it? I mean, you hear your real real conversations with real people, you realise that they've actually got a life beyond the sort of the business, that sort of thing. It helps to build that connection.Joe Graves  03:31Yeah, massively.Stuart Webb  03:32So one of the sorts of things that people have tried to do before they come and see a real professional like you Joe, what did you inject into their, into their podcasting or audio recording, which, which, you know, the rest of us are still struggling with? So I mean,Joe Graves  03:47it can be a lot of things, it does vary up. I was amazed actually, when I started doing podcasts how how difficult that can be to produce you know, from top to bottom, when you factor in, obviously, the audio recordings, the video recordings, particularly video of Meeks it was all audio before, so learned about video has been a massive learning curve for me, everything down to, you know, camera seven record limits, stuff like that. So how do you bypass that and then, wow, it costs a lot of money to do so. Stuff like that. So I suppose reverse. It's the quality, I think is one of the major factors because you can you can do podcasts like this, you know, I'm here on my laptop right now. And it's still it's still a great way to do a podcast you know, if I was feeling fancy, I could have brought like a camera with me and plugged it into a 4k camera plugged into my computer or brought a microphone and whatnot. But it's not always necessary you know, you can still create great content without it but for some customers while our customers at least they've goal, they have the belief which I suppose I do agree with on many levels. Is that the quality helps. helps the customers suppose they can enjoy it more if they're watching some it maybe Yeah, maybe 4k, whatever it be, it can be a bit more immersive. So there's benefits to doing it in the studio, not to mention the fact that it's totally out their hands, it's done for you. They can come up with a concept come to us, we'll set up all the microphones, do all the recordings of the cameras, do all the editing after chop up the social media snippets, great thumbnails, it's done for them and handed to want to play. So I suppose that's where we come in. When it comes to podcasting.Stuart Webb  05:28Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Okay, so I guess you have a lot of very valuable advice that you could give to some of the audience. So give us give us the pearls of wisdom, Joe, what is it we should all be thinking about when we're doing these things that will just help us improve just that little bit? And bring some of that professionalism you've got?Joe Graves  05:47So you talk in purely in terms of production? Are you talking in terms of why should we even be doing a podcast? OrStuart Webb  05:53you Well, yeah, it's a really great questions on it. I mean, yeah, I was thinking in terms of production, but I mean, you know, the, why should you be doing a podcast? We all know that podcasts are the the up and coming thing. And, and frankly, you know, I was talking to somebody about this. And, you know, I'm launching, you know, I think you've got a similar sort of offering, why should you do a podcast? At this stage, you know, with some 600 million blogs out there. Although there are a lot of podcasts, there's only about two, 2 million of them out in out in the world. And to be honest, you're you're a much bigger fish in the podcast world than you are sort of trying to be a blogger, aren'tJoe Graves  06:28you? Well of that, and it's just it's, it's incredibly easy to digest. Yes, I'm watching. I don't know about yourself. But if I have a question of what to learn how to do something, I'm gonna go straight to YouTube instead. You know, and again, if it's, if I'm driving, it will be like, there's certain podcasts I listen to, it's great company, there can be educational depends what kind of thing you're going for, quite frankly, a no brainer. Like, I think if you're a company, it's the perfect entry point. No matter what you're doing, it's a way to demonstrate your authority and your niche, it's a way to, like I say, the big one is connect with your audience. Because it really is if people understand the people behind your business, and they do agree with you about many things, they're going to think about you instead of your competitors, when they're ready to buy the kind of thing you sell. So in my eyes, it's a no brainer. And you can have one conversation like this and chop it up into 510 pieces. And then you've got regular content for a week, a month, or whatever you want to distribute it. It's an absolute no brainer. And here's the big hidden benefit that a lot of people don't know about. And I think I might have spoke to you about this, when we last them first spoke the networking aspect of it. But particularly if you do an interview style things, you know, podcasts, it's such a great way, like more people than you can imagine. They're happy to come and talk about themselves and what they do. And this is the thing, it's such an easy sell. If you are of course it's free, it costs anything. But you know, if you say it's one, I offer this, you know, are you interested? They might look at it, they might go talk to me, you know, but if you say you want to come talk about yourself for half an hour 80% of the time, the answer is yes. And you know, we've all been sly about having an ulterior motive. You know, it doesn't have to be that they become your customer, but maybe someone they know, might be interested in what you do, and you ultimately just building a network. It's a fantastic way to do it. It really is. Because well, first of all, I mean, in my case, I'm demonstrating what I do. Yeah, sir. And I tell you in a very short space of time, we've filled our studio with this kind of, you know, we spent a while thinking we want to go to music, how do we do it? How do you get into the b2b world and it really was a perplexing situation for me my brother like how do you do it like you do speak to what do you do? And then it was from a customer we had a total fluke podcast customer who came in said, Oh, we're trying to do a podcast you do it. We're like, suppose weekend, that we quizzed them on it and explained exactly this to us, like, yeah, we're meeting all the best people. And then we're getting referrals. We're getting work. And in a very short space of time, like I said, we've gone from music to this. And it's, it's just been the greatest way. And all you're doing is having conversations with people. It's fantastic. It's fun. It's easy. It's a no brainer.Stuart Webb  09:11Do you know it's brilliant. You put it like that? Actually, Joker? You're absolutely right. Too many people think podcasts are something special, but they're not. They're another form of content. And they're a conversation and you know, we have conversations all day, every day. And nobody ever thinks of the fact that those conversations can actually be quite meaningful. They can actually be interesting. Most people are you know, they don't they go into conversations just you know, on thinking or you got to do is sort of switch on that. And suddenly they become something else, don't they? And you know, you're right. We're here we met we met because while I love, great, great, we connected over podcasting. We're talking now about podcasting because we really enjoy it. I actually agree with you and present. I think one of the best things I ever did was start up a podcast because I've met some really, really interesting people and And then I put on my network. So when I want something, it's a really warm introduction to reach out to them and say hi again, you know, remember, remember that great episode we did? Oh, by the way, if you know anybody else who'd like to have exactly the same thing that I'd love to sort of talk to, and there's a warm introduction, they immediately turn around go, yeah, that was a great conversation. It was great fun. My mate bill would like to go at that. It's such a such a quick way to build your network.Joe Graves  10:23You couldn't have said it backwards. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. You reentering with a, you know, a warm, warm connection. And, you know, as much as that can be a tactical thing, in business, or life or whatever, that's really all the world is it's, you know, it's relationships, you know, that's all anything is. So this is the perfect way to do it. Like I say, worst case scenario, if you meet 100 people, and not one of them, are anyone in their network needs your services or anything like that you've at least created a hell of a lot of content that you post in all over the internet. And if it's the right kind of content, for the right people, that's going to be promotion, and all cost nothing. You know, I mean, motocross something if you come and do it versus you know, because we have a full studio, so but if you did it like this, where it's like I say it's great contents a great way to do it, you can do it for free, you know, maybe unless you want to invest in a microphone or whatever. But other than that, it cost you time. Yeah. Fantastic way to do it.Stuart Webb  11:27Yeah. And today's Internet means that you, you can do and we are, you know, I'm in a different part of the country to you, we've saved all that sort of, you know, carbon by not travelling, but at the same time, we're still connecting.Joe Graves  11:40Absolutely. It's one of our customers the called factual America. And they so a factual America is the podcast wing of the main company, Halima pictures, and they're, they're a film company, they do documentaries about America. And then they were the company actually, that we got this idea of. And they in their podcast, they interviewed directors of documentaries. And they're all well, not all but most of Oscar winning directors, Grammy winning directors, all the right people, it's all the documentaries you'll see on Netflix, Disney plus Amazon Prime. So just like that the meeting all the right people, and it's it's helped them massively grow the business. Yeah. It's, it's just a genius idea, really, when you think about it, but so simple.Stuart Webb  12:30So is there been a particular? I mean, you obviously you've gone into podcasting, after after being a sound engineer and working with musicians? Was there a, was there a particular book or a course or something like that, which helps you to sort of shift or you just think would be an interesting sort of pick to be able to tell people about and get them to start thinking about some of this in their own lives?Joe Graves  12:51Podcasting, not specifically, that was just the road I was down. And, well, I mean, I'd have an interest in listening to them for a long time before we started doing them. And when I realised they were a great way to get into, for us the more b2b style of things, because I think one of our major goals was like, How can we get more retainer style clients and get some stability in the business? And this was a great way to do it for us. But in terms of like I say, not not really when it comes to podcasting. But I would say in terms of business in general, which I suppose kind of relates to podcast, it's about communication really was Donald Miller. So the first one I listened to was marketing made simple. And then, yeah, there was a listen to start building a storybrand After that, and actually got the online university. What's What's the online university called? I can't remember, but I got a year subscription for that. And it was all fantastic. Yeah, again, it all boils down to communication, how you speak to people, you know, rephrasing the way I suppose I do podcasts, you know, I help you connect with your audience. You know, that's, you know, just flip it around the approach on what it is. Because a lot of people don't realise that a podcast is a way of doing that. But everyone is, of course, interested in connecting with their audience while because who doesn't want to be thought at first, you know, who doesn't want to be the go to brand, when when someone's looking to buy the kind of thing you sell, you know? So I suppose that that was a book that really I spent a lot of time I didn't just read it over and over again, I listened to it audiobook form actually, I've not really read and listened to. But that was a book where I really dwelled on the concepts and then skew in my head for a while. And I've gotten to a point where I feel like it's second nature for me now. The concepts of the bookStuart Webb  14:43are great. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And if you're one of those people that learns by listening, learn by listening because that's what podcasts and audiobooks and those sort of courses are about now, aren't they?Joe Graves  14:52Absolutely, yeah, that again, that was another reason we got into I was like, Well, I do this the amount of audiobooks I have on business. You are podcast I've listened to on business. If I couldn't believe it was maybe a couple years after I was like, why don't I do this?Stuart Webb  15:06So, listen to this. There's been, you know, I've been asking you the questions here, and you've been generous enough with your time to talk. But there must be a question that you're currently thinking, I wish you'd asked me about such and such. So I'm gonna give you the opportunity now to ask that question. And then obviously, it would be great if you answered that question having asked Yeah,Joe Graves  15:24yeah, sure. Okay. Well, I'm about to jump in and ask myself the question, something like that. Okay. Well, like you say, you can do a podcast like this through zoom. So what's the difference in doing it studio? Why is it worth it? Like says a lot, a lot, a lot of reasons why it's worth it, it's not always necessary. But if you were to take the jump, it's higher quality. It's, you know, a lot of people find it more digestible, it stands the test of time, things age, you know, it's gonna be more evergreen, by a longshot. And the problem is, it's, it's nowhere near as easy to do, as you would think. I know, like I say, when I first jumped into like, Okay, we're gonna start recording podcasts with people. Cool, give them a mic, give them a mic, put a camera on this guy camera on that guy. Cool. What What else is there to it? I mean, I was so wrong, I can't even begin to explain the variables. The the challenge is, it's every time you do want, it's different, you know, little things like I mean, in my world, it's common sense, I have the microphone directly in front of here are maybe half a foot, but be consistent, because the total inconsistencies when you move in relation to the microphone, things like that, that are all common sense to me, and you explain it to your customer, and then they'll move around anyway. And then it's like, hang on, you're gonna explain all this before, and then keep an eye on them. It's there. It's like monitoring the entire session, then, like I say, since we started doing podcasts, the amount of money we spent on camera gear, recorders, microphones, boom, arms for the desks, line boosters, because it's quiet. You know, before this, we were recording people screaming and shouting, and you know, so you don't need a, you don't need to worry about like a low noise floor and the microphones is endless to get him to that pro level that the amount of things you just couldn't imagine. Like I say it for a lot of people is worth it. And obviously, I'm in a lucky position where I can do my own, you know, with my decent cameras and microphones and got various rooms at the studio in which we can do them for different sets, and whatnot. So yeah, I would say if you want to step up the production, don't be fooled into thinking you'll be able to do on your own. I've had over a decade of audio experience working for some massive companies are doing albums for Sony, you know, I've recorded songs that I've been on Xbox games, you know, all sorts, but this was a challenge as well, you know?Stuart Webb  17:53Yeah, it was that is a really good lesson, somebody with that sort of experience is one of this. This is challenges. He's brilliant. I put the name of the studio down at the bottom of the other screen if you if you go to inner sound audio.co.uk forward slash podcast hyphen studio. So it's inner sound audio.co.uk forward slash podcast hyphen studio, you'll find all sorts of details there about Joe and his brother, what they're up to. Great, great person to know, when it comes to this recording stuff. You'd need experts like Joe, on your side, when you're sort of doing something like this. Joe, thank you so much for spending a few minutes talking to us really appreciate you spending a few minutes out of what must be a busy day, because I know how busy you get with this sort of thing. So I really thank you very much for spending a few minutes with us and really appreciate your time.Joe Graves  18:44Thank you so much for being great.Stuart Webb  18:46No problem. Listen, people if you would like to get onto our newsletter list so that you get an email from me on Monday about who I'm interviewing, at this time most weeks, you need to go to TTA dot FYI forward slash subscribe, that's TCA dot FYI, forward slash subscribe that gets you on to the newsletter list. You get an email from me giving you details, who's going to be on you can listen live and you also get details of the recording and how to subscribe and also details of how to become a guest yourself if like become a guest. So get on to the newsletter list and if you know somebody who'd like to be a guest, find out how to become a guest and subscribe to the video. So thank you Joe very much for being with us. Really appreciate it. I'm gonna give us a quick shout out and and we all see each other again very soon.Joe Graves  19:31As youStuart Webb  19:38know I need to actually press the right button down I need some of your skills on this job. Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

LFirst ReadingEZEKIEL 34:1-111The word of the LORD came to me: 2"Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord GOD: Ho, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding yourselves! Should not shepherds feed the sheep? 3You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fatlings; but you do not feed the sheep. 4The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the crippled you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. 5So they were scattered, because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the wild beasts. 6My sheep were scattered, they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them. 7"Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8As I live, says the Lord GOD, because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd; and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep; 9therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10Thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my sheep at their hand, and put a stop to their feeding the sheep; no longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them. 11"For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep, and will seek them out.Responsorial PsalmPSALMS 23:1-61The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want; 2he makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters; 3he restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. 5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my head with oil, my cup overflows. 6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.GospelMATTHEW 20:1-161"For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4and to them he said, `You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. 5Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, `Why do you stand here idle all day?' 7They said to him, `Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, `You go into the vineyard too.' 8And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, `Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.' 9And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12saying, `These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13But he replied to one of them, `Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?' 16So the last will be first, and the first last."

GOSPEL POWER l AUGUST 17, 2022 - WEDNESDAY 20th Week in Ordinary Time Gospel: Mt 20:1-16 Jesus told his disciples this parable, 1 “The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When he went out about nine o'clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace; 4 and he said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went. 5 When he went out again about noon and about three o'clock, he did the same. 6 And about five o'clock he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why are you standing here idle all day?' 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard.' 8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, ‘Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.' 9 When those hired about five o'clock came, each of them received the usual daily wage. 10Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received the usual daily wage. 11And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, 12saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. 15Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” If we can sympathize with the earliest laborers and agree that they have been unjustly treated, then the parable has made its desired impact on us. Parables are wisdom-tales intended to shock and disturb listeners, or at least to move them to ask critical questions. It is in this space of discomfort that the parable reveals its true meaning. A closer look at the story shows that the owner has little concern for mathematics or ensuring exact equivalence between salaries and working hours. His main action, repeated several times during the day, is to hire people to work in his vineyard. He wants no one to stay idle. The parable must be telling us about God's concern that we take part in his project, for that alone will give meaning to our earthly existence. Life is aimless and out of focus if one is not actively involved in what God is doing. Whether we get involved early or later in life, the same incalculable eternity is in store for us at the conclusion of God's project. Lord Jesus, your infinite love gives without counting the cost. May we, too, stop calculating rewards and remunerations but simply give generously of ourselves. Amen.

This is the fourth sermon in our summer series, "Missional Movement." Revelation 3:15-17 ‘I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot. 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, “I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.” You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Romans 12:1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect.

SPEAKERSSuzanne Noble, Peter MarriottSuzanne Noble  00:10Hello, and welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors, which, surprisingly, is coming to you from a different location today, isn't it Peter?Peter Marriott  00:20It is. We're broadcasting live from the John Radcliffe Hospital, here on hospital Radio 197. No, we're broadcasting from the hospital because I had a bit of a fall. Fell off my bike, and broke my ribs and my jaw. So I might sound a little strange while we're talking today. But we thought it'd be a good opportunity to talk about disability and sex because I also have another disability in that I have MS. So maybe there's the opportunity to do that. To talk about that.Suzanne Noble  01:00Well, I think if anytime is right, the time is now, you have to grab your opportunities when they arise. And if you hear some little background noise and squeaking that's just the lovely hospital ambience coming out to you. So, we can't do anything about that. So Pete had a bit of a fall. And he's laid up here in bed surrounded by three other older men who are looking in far worse condition than you do. Frankly, I have to say.Peter Marriott  01:31Well, they've got things like broken hips and stuff like that. They're really quite badly off. I think one's going for an operation today. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe I'll be released. But, nobody knows. We don't know.Suzanne Noble  01:54So let's talk about disability and sex. Because you know what, that's a really.. when it comes to taboo subjects. If you thought being older and having sex was taboo, well, just goes one level up, doesn't it when you've got a disability because it's something people really, really don't want to talk about at all, I suspect. But, you've had MS for how long now?Peter Marriott  02:18Oh, well, I was diagnosed in 2010. Retired in 2015. Early Retirement. So I've been hanging around thinking about these things for a while now. And disability and sex are a big one. Because, obviously, you know, all the issues we talked about last time were with self-identity, and being virile and strong and young and the rest of it kind of disappears if you have a disability. I mean, luckily for me, sexually, I don't seem to be too badly affected by the MS. So, but I know that for a lot of people is a big problem.Suzanne Noble  03:11And how does the illness for those of the audience that doesn't know how does it manifest itself?Peter Marriott  03:20Well, a million different ways. It starts off very small and it gets bigger and bigger. In my case, for some people, it never develops very far at all. A lot of people apparently find they have MS. Well, not them, obviously, their relatives, find that they have MS at the autopsy stage.  The incidence is probably much higher, but it starts off with niggling pains and pins and needles and balance problems. Quite often sight problems, people go blind for no reason and then their sight comes back, back again. Those things happen and it takes quite a long time before they've discovered the reason for it because they don't really find out when they do an MRI scan and find you've got these lesions on your nerves, which is where the name comes from multiple sclerosis. You've lots of scar tissue on your nerves. And then they go from there and they offer you disease-modifying treatment and all sorts of things.Suzanne Noble  04:46And sexually, did you worry at first that it might have some impact on your sex life? When you first found out that you had MS. Was it something that you did think about or was it kind of pushed to the back in terms of some of the other challenges?Peter Marriott  05:08It seemed it wasn't having too much of an effect. So you prioritise in your head, the different things that are going on. I was more worried, for example at the time that I couldn't play the guitar anymore. I couldn't walk very far anymore. And that distance gradually declined and that was more worrying. But I guess if I'd had sexual problems, then that would have been pretty well at the top of the list, I should imagine. And luckily, I didn't, so I could concentrate on those other things.Suzanne Noble  05:51I suppose the only area is things around as you said, things around your balance, and also just general energy level. And I think that there are a lot of illnesses around that clearly impact people's energy levels. And you have to figure out positions and things where you're not expending as much energy. And the other person maybe takes over from that.Peter Marriott  06:16So whatever happens, then, your sex life is gonna change in lots of ways. , the energy is, is a major problem. Because you have to work really hard to keep your energy levels up. , you know, if you're gonna be fit, maintain your energy levels for sexual purposes then you have to get out and get exercising, you know, and that's the last thing you start running around or jumping up and down. You just want to lie down and take it easy. It affects you in lots of ways. And I think disabilities do that. You're affected by not only your own disabilities, your own inability to, you know, have a full sex life, whatever. But you're affected by other people's perceptions of, more importantly, I, again, I don't, that hasn't been too bad for me, because apart from falling around a lot when people just assume I'm drunk, which sometimes I'm sometimes or not, but if you're in a wheelchair, or you have a more visible disability than I think it's much more of a problem. I think then, you know, you really are up against it, in terms of your sex life, or your or whatever you're doing really. But that it's I think it's a big problem for your sex life if you're severely disabled. Obviously. But, but it's something where people think I will, the sex life is not important. There are more important things. And that's true. But it is such an essential part of being an adult human being that it's quite difficult to, put it aside and say, it doesn't matter. It's more important to be able to walk or, you know, do this, that and the other. I mean, the only reason I play the guitar, for example, is because originally I thought would be a good way to get laid. And so not being able to play the guitar is kind of synonymous with not getting laid. Realistically, there it is.Suzanne Noble  09:14That's such a male thing, isn't it? Like a rock star and thinking of associating it with getting laid? By whatever sex you happen to prefer? I suspect that, as you say, one of the, one of the key challenges I suspect of being somebody who's not got some form of disability, whether it's visible or invisible, is that the medical profession prefers not to think about sex, when it comes to all of this sort of stuff. So as you said, they tend to kind of go, well, let's talk about that. After we talk about all the other stuff. Let's get around to that later and getting around to that later, sometimes, that's the only thing you have to cling on to is the fact that actually, you know, you can have sexual pleasure you can be with someone, you can enjoy it. If you're not able to do some other things, like, for instance, walk very far or you know, or go running or do whatever else people do to get endorphins going throughout their body, then that's one of the few things that you actually can do. And I think to dismiss it as being some are less important than some of these other things is to undermine just how important it is for adults, just in general.I've seen that having been with partners who, you know, were diagnosed with cancer and asked the doctor for Viagra. One of the first things in a previous relationship, somebody I was with, who was diagnosed with late-stage cancer said, Well, can I just have some Viagra please so I can just have some fun for the last few months. And honestly, the doctor's face, his jaw fell to the floor. He could not have been, he didn't know what to do. He didn't know how to react. And he did say, let's think about that in a few weeks' time. Let's just see how you get on after he has just been diagnosed with a death sentence. And he said, What are you talking about? There's no kind of getting on later on. I just want this now. And the unfortunate thing was, I mean, we did go and find it from some backstreet place, this was pre being able to just pick it up at Boots. But I'll never forget how his attitude towards that request was somehow really surprising to me because I thought he couldn't be the only person that just wants to have sex towards the end of his life. I know, it's a morbid thing to talk about. But it did. It was really important to him. And if you...Peter Marriott  11:56If you said to people, you know, you've got 10 minutes to live, what you do, there's always some variation of sex in there. Some, not a very nice version of what they want to do, but, but somewhere there, and John Baetjemen was, you know, he was even in TV, TV ad, I think, at some point. And the end of his life is in a wheelchair and somebody asks him Do you have any regrets at all? You see, I wish I'd have more sex, you know, so, it's such ingrained parts of the human psyche to want that and to see that as an important part of our lives. And, you know, one of the first things the doctor did, in fact, I think it was the first appointment. My doctor offered me a prescription for Viagra. I think I still have them.Suzanne Noble  13:07And, and one of the things I was thinking about as well was that when people talk about pleasure, they often talk about orgasms. And many people, obviously, people who have got more severe disabilities and you have, or perhaps paralysed downstairs or whatever, or, you know, that might be something they're not able to achieve anymore. And I think we've got to stop associating pleasure being solely around orgasms. Because one of the things just jokingly, when, when I was talking to the other Pete the other day, we were, we were talking about, you know, how long it takes to have an orgasm when you're older, in other words, forever. And he said, Oh, I've just, you know, and I just, I just, it just takes so long, I just get bored with myself, you know? And, and that's because, and I said, and I laughed because we all recognise that feeling when sometimes you just think, Oh, I just, I just can't be bothered. It's just taking far too long. And that could be because you're on medication, which makes it take much longer than usual, like antidepressants, for instance, or other types of medication made, which may also have some impact on the ability to orgasm. But what I've come to realise is that actually, there's just so many different ways to get pleasure, and that having that one aim in mind that one goal is so limiting, and can be quite soul destroying sometimes when you just say, Oh, I just don't know if it's gonna happen, you know, but I've stopped thinking about whether it's gonna happen or not. And I kind of like the fact that I'm not bound so much by this desire anymore. to just get to this finish line, because the journey is as fun as getting to the finish line. And sometimes you're not gonna get to the finish linePeter Marriott  15:08I think that is an insight that by definition comes late in life I went to a mid-life crisis tantric workshop. And about the only thing, I learned from that was stop chasing the orgasm. You know, if you have an orgasm fine, it's great. But that's not the point. The point is to have fun along the way to be in tune with your IChing or whatever. However you want to see it. The point is the pleasure, the pleasure, the sex and stop chasing the orgasm. Simple as that really, especially if your orgasm is retreating ahead of you at a rate of knots. And, you know, sort of looking at the watch and thinking for Christ's sake Come on. That's no way to enjoy yourself. And you've got to stop thinking that you're a failure if you don't have an orgasm. I think women have pretended to have orgasms since the beginning of time. Eve was probably there in the, in the, in the Garden of Eden giving it some welly and pretending to have an orgasm. But I'm not saying the men, because that's a bit more difficult. But, you know, just enjoy the sensations you get. I mean, I don't know about other men, but I get little orgasms, sort of mini orgasms while I'm having sex if I'm having a really good time. That's, you know, I think at the end of the session, then we might ask, Well, you didn't come? Are you happy? And you say good, happy? Great, fine, thanks very much. Good night.Suzanne Noble  17:16Well, that's all linked to this, again, this fear of failure, if you don't get to the end, that you somehow failed in some way on both sides. If men haven't, quote, unquote, given somebody an orgasm is if you can give it to them like a gift. Oh, here you go. Like, here's your orgasm or women have, you know, or if the guy's not coming, women often think, well, there's something wrong with me, obviously, I'm not very good at this. And in fact, Pete, the other Pete said, Well, clearly you don't care whether they come. I said I don't really, I mean, I said, No, of course, I do a little bit, but I don't. I don't I'm not fixated on it. Because I know that. If it wasn't fun, then you'd want to stop. You would want to stop now. So, I think that there are many different ways to enjoy yourself. And I think that's really the whole thing about disability and having sex is that there are many, many different ways to enjoy yourself. And being fixated on penetrative sex, or whatever it just is, is only one very small part of the menu. That delightful menu that is, you know, that is sex and pleasure. And, and exploring all of that is where the joy comes in, and the hope and the openness towards being able to explore all the other erogenous zones, rather than the very predictable ones that we're all very familiar with.Peter Marriott  18:43So I have a couple of friends, who are, he's disabled and can't get an erection. But she says she's having the best sex she's ever had in her life. Because, you know, they're taking the time. , to make it work, you know, and different things and experimenting more, rather than just shoving it and off you go It's actually taking retirement to make sex, something enjoyable and pleasurable. Whatever it is, and that, you know, I think that's the message of the podcast so far as to do that. Take the pleasure where you canSuzanne Noble  19:32Yep, take the pleasure where you can you've been in the hospital. I'm in the hospital. Well, I don't know how that's going to work because there's a bit of a catheter issue at the moment. Not that may be too much information there for you guys. Anyway, that's, that's probably the one and only hopefully, episode of Sex Advice for Seniors. Brought to you from the John Radcliffe Hospital in the trauma ward, there you go. And if you know what nobody is going to be nobody else is going to be recording a podcast in this place. Certainly not in this ward. Peter Marriott  22:00Lots of people have been traumatised by us. Okay, all right, Off we go then. Bye-bye bye-bye.Thanks for reading Sex Advice for Seniors! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support our work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sexadviceforseniors.com

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.Related ResourcesExecutive Skill Questionnaire-RevisedESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-RSmart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard GuareSmart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered websiteHelping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills. Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does. But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire. Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode. Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans. Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty. Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?Peg Dawson 05:41Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.Hannah Choi 08:18I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.Peg Dawson 08:28Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.Hannah Choi 08:53Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,Peg Dawson 10:31yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not soHannah Choi 11:16yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.Peg Dawson 12:00Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...Hannah Choi 12:43Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,Peg Dawson 13:02yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.Hannah Choi 14:05Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.Peg Dawson 14:24Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,Hannah Choi 15:59yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.Peg Dawson 16:16So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.Hannah Choi 19:29I saw that too.Peg Dawson 19:30So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.Hannah Choi 20:08Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?Peg Dawson 21:18So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.Hannah Choi 22:44Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.Peg Dawson 22:49And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.Hannah Choi 26:22Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,Peg Dawson 27:03Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.Hannah Choi 28:00Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.Peg Dawson 28:33Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.Hannah Choi 29:30And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. SoPeg Dawson 29:50I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's suchHannah Choi 30:33If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.Peg Dawson 30:36It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.Hannah Choi 30:59Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.Peg Dawson 32:09Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. SoHannah Choi 33:08yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,Peg Dawson 33:34right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 33:46So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.Peg Dawson 38:27I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 39:29Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.Peg Dawson 39:34Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.Hannah Choi 39:37Do you have any questions for me?Peg Dawson 39:39So how long have you been coaching?Hannah Choi 39:41I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.Peg Dawson 40:05Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?Hannah Choi 40:19That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?Peg Dawson 42:02Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.Hannah Choi 42:15They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.Peg Dawson 42:56I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But andHannah Choi 43:19so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?Peg Dawson 44:55But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.Hannah Choi 45:40And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.Peg Dawson 46:44And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,Hannah Choi 47:55if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?Peg Dawson 48:41No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.Hannah Choi 49:19But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?Peg Dawson 49:34So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.Hannah Choi 49:57I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it! Peg Dawson 50:00Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?Hannah Choi 50:02They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting. Peg Dawson 50:13And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.Hannah Choi 50:25Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.Peg Dawson 50:40Thank you. This was fun.Hannah Choi 50:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin welcome Registered Psychologist Erin Bonner back to the podcast to take everyone on a deep dive into psychology and how therapy works. Erin breaks down when diagnosis is useful in selecting a therapeutic modality, how different therapies treat behaviors and emotions, and how to go about selecting the right therapist for your needs.Erin believes everyone should know something about therapy, modalities, types of therapists, and how to find a therapist. To that end, Erin details exactly what her speciality - clinical counseling psychology - means and what modalities her training specifically focused on. She explains the differences between clinical and subclinical and what the idea ‘diagnosis directs treatment' looks like in terms of the type of therapy that would be best for an individual. Lori and Alyssa explore the differences between DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) and CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) with Erin. They discuss the CBT triangle, what a DBT skill like the TIPP skill would assist with, and how important personal connection with a therapist is to effective therapy. This episode addresses your brain, your thoughts, and any feeling or trauma you may have that a psychologist or therapist can help with. This imparts important knowledge on how to choose therapy that is best for you.About Erin Bonner:Erin Bonner is a Registered Psychologist with a Master's of Arts in Counselling Psychology. She is passionate about her role in helping others navigate their individual paths towards wellness. In her 20s she tragically lost her younger brother and then her mother shortly after. Through her own therapeutic journey, she discovered her calling to help others work on understanding and processing emotions to achieve personal growth and well-being.Erin is trained in Cognitive and Dialectical Behavioural Therapies, Prolonged Exposure, Exposure with Response Prevention, Emotion-Focused and Mindfulness-Based Therapy. She specializes in treating depression, anxiety, PTSD, cPTSD, ADHD, emotion dysregulation, grief, OCD, and in helping individuals learn to love themselves and develop strong relationships with the people in their lives. She also offers Sport Psychology to equestrian athletes on an individual or group basis.Erin believes in holistic wellness and that integrating various modalities of treatment enhances the benefits of therapy. She encourages her clients to be curious about how they can cultivate lifestyle changes to think, emote and behave in ways that foster personal wellbeing and contentment; this is paramount in her approach to therapy.In addition to working with adults, she has a special interest, passion and gift for working with adolescents aged 14 and older.Resources discussed in this episode:TIPP skillCBT triangle-- Maliya: website | instagram | facebookErin Bonner | Registered Psychologist: website | linkedin TranscriptionErin Bonner  00:59Hi guys. Alyssa Rabin  01:01How are you? Erin Bonner  01:02I'm good. I'm excited to chat. Lori Bean  01:06Let's do it. We need some answers to the questions we're getting. Alyssa Rabin  01:11Totally. Erin Bonner  01:13Maybe I should start with contrary to popular belief, therapists don't know everything. We are all work-in-progresses ourselves. Lori Bean  01:20Oh. Alyssa Rabin  01:21That's not what you told me. Erin Bonner  01:22I know. You know the... speak with confidence and then everybody just believes everything you say. Lori Bean  01:30Maybe I should become a clinical psychologist. Erin Bonner  01:36I think it's important, though, to kind of know about therapy, about, you know, what kind of therapist fits for you and kind of how to maybe even choose a therapist. Because I was talking to a new client and they were wildly overwhelmed with just the process of finding, like, who the heck can help me. And so I think maybe we can uncover some of that because it's overwhelming, Alyssa Rabin  02:00Totally and completely. Finding the right fit and feeling comfortable to pour your heart out. And absolutely. So why don't you first tell us, what specifically do you specialize in? Erin Bonner  02:15My specialty is in clinical counseling psychology. And what that means is that my training is in modalities that are empirically supported for the treatment of mental disorders. So I am trained in treatments to treat borderline personality disorder, major anxiety disorder, depression, OCD, PTSD. And so a lot of the training that I have, really is designed for individuals with kind of clinical disorders, and anybody who might even be subclinical, or anybody who just is highly emotionally sensitive and emotions run their life. Alyssa Rabin  02:53What's subclinical? Erin Bonner  02:54Subclinical means you might not actually meet diagnostic criteria, according to, you know, the set diagnostic criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. And that emotion pattern, you know, depression, anxiety, trauma experiences, they're pretty controlling in your life, that we as psychologists have to have, you know, a gradient. You either meet criteria for diagnosis or you don't. And if you have four out of nine criteria for something and not five out of nine criteria, where five out of nine is that threshold, having four out of nine is still pretty life altering. Lori Bean  03:30So if you recognize, like, let's say you had a trauma that's still affecting you today, you don't know if it's PTSD, you're just not functioning. Erin Bonner  03:37Yeah. Lori Bean  03:38It's controlling your life. Alyssa Rabin  03:39And even if it's not a trauma, if you don't recognize exactly what is going on, but why are you feeling anxious? Why are you feeling depressed? Why are you feeling all of these emotions? Erin Bonner  03:50Yeah. And I think often diagnosis, it directs treatment. And so sometimes we need a diagnosis before we embark on a treatment, because, let's face it, there are lots of different modalities out there. And they're all useful in one way or another for individuals who they fit for. And not every type of therapy is going to fit for every person. So sometimes, you gotta get the diagnosis first. You gotta kind of know what you're working with before you choose a path down therapy, because it's exhausting to go down a whole therapeutic pathway and feel like it doesn't do a darn thing. It just costs you a whole bunch of money, and time and energy and effort. And so sometimes the diagnosis is really, really important to start with. Lori Bean  04:30So where do you get the diagnosis? Erin Bonner  04:31So diagnosis typically will come from either a psychiatrist, or there are psychologists out there who specialize in assessment, it's not actually something I do. I have some solid familiarity, with the treatments that I offer, to kind of do general assessment, so I can assess for PTSD, I can assess for OCD. And I don't have as much training as someone who specializes in assessment would have. And so if I meet with a client and I think, you know what, I think we got to know what's going on here from kind of a diagnostic perspective first, I'll typically refer out. And I have a couple of referral sources that I think are really fantastic and they know their stuff really, really well. And so I'll say, 'hey, this is important to do so you aren't wasting your time'. I want to help every single person that comes through my doors, and if I don't offer the treatment that fits for that person, I can't as well as somebody who does offer that treatment. Alyssa Rabin  05:23So let's say I am feeling depressed and anxious. And I don't have a diagnosis. Do I have to go get that first to come to see you? Erin Bonner  05:33No, not at all. Alyssa Rabin  05:34Okay. Erin Bonner  05:34As the, you know, clinical professional in the room, it's a bit my job to go, 'hey, I think this is really important' or, the other piece, yes diagnosis directs treatment. And as a therapist, as a clinical counseling therapist, I am very much treating the symptoms. Yes, there are these diagnostic labels. And all the diagnostic label means is you're experiencing all of these symptoms in a way that's altering your life. Alyssa Rabin  05:58Interesting. Erin Bonner  06:00And so that's my job. To do some assessment. This is why a first session often feels a little 21 questioning. I try not to make it as 21 questioning as possible, and really have it be a conversation, but there is, over the first couple of sessions, a bit of assessment that I'm doing, to kind of conceptualize how does what I do fit for a client. Alyssa Rabin  06:19As well - actually, before this, you and I were talking about connection. Erin Bonner  06:25Yeah. Alyssa Rabin  06:26How important connection is between the client and their psychologist? Lori Bean  06:31Yeah. Erin Bonner  06:31Absolutely. I like to think about that chemistry factor, when it comes to choosing a psychologist, that you kind of want - and not in a weird, creepy way - you kind of want the same feeling if you go on a first date, and you're like, 'whoa, that was great'. Whether they were, like, nurturing or kind or, like, you just had that ease of conversation. You kind of want that feeling with a therapist in some way, shape, or form because, I mean, this is somebody you're gonna be spilling your guts to. You're going to be very vulnerable with this human. And so if you don't have that kind of spark of connection, it's really hard to be vulnerable. It's really hard to be candid, it's really hard to just show up and go with what happens in a session. And so I think, I mean, there's research that backs it up that there's a big statistic of - I don't know, I don't know the exact number - but about 60% of the game is finding a therapist you connect with. And so that's, you know, you got to understand and feel like they're their theory fits for you. You got to feel like their personality fits for you. I know, I'm a pretty conversational, I'd say casual, conversational style therapist. I fully believe in the power of a therapeutic F bomb. And so that's gonna fit for some people and it's not gonna fit for others. Lori Bean  06:38That fits for me. Erin Bonner  06:57And so I think that's a huge part of the battle which, absolutely, it makes finding a therapist overwhelming and challenging. Alyssa Rabin  07:54Which is why it's so amazing that you do offer free virtual consultation. It's like a 15 minute consultation. So you can see the person face to face and sort of get that energy. And see if it is a match, which I just think is brilliant. Erin Bonner  08:10I think it's important that I know therapy is expensive. And I know that people are investing time, energy, money, emotions into doing therapy with me. And so at least if they have that thought of, like, I'm kind of interested in speaking to her again, before they, you know, shell out that that fee for the first session, I think is important. And it's something that I really I like to do because I'm a human too. And we get in a session and our therapeutic or conversational selves don't fit? It's uncomfortable for everybody. Alyssa Rabin  08:43Yeah, absolutely. Lori Bean  08:46So what are some of the - do you call them processes that you use? Erin Bonner  08:51Yeah. So theories or modalities. Or processes, absolutely. So I would classify myself as someone who falls into the category of behaviorist. And so what that means is, all of the theories that backup my practice, that I'm really pulling from when I'm doing therapy, have to do with human behavior. It's one of kind of the, I think there's six kind of different categories or genres. Yeah, I like that word. So I'm a behavioral therapist. And so my training is in dialectical behavior therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, I can tell you what those are in a minute. And then a lot of the exposure based treatments that I use, so prolonged exposure to treat PTSD, exposure with response prevention for the treatment of OCD, any, like, mindfulness based therapies that are really behaviorally mindfulness based therapies, emotion focused, there is this behavioral element that I bring. Lori Bean  09:44Okay, so let's say - Alyssa Rabin  09:46- you're revisiting - Lori Bean  09:48- you're re- yeah, that's the word you use. Revisit. So what if it's something like, maybe it's something you've repressed? Erin Bonner  09:55Yeah. Lori Bean  09:56Or something that happened a long time ago as a kid and you do don't really remember. How do you revisit something like that? Erin Bonner  10:04I like that question. Because I think we have this urge, if we know there's trauma, or there's, like, a question mark about where there's trauma, we want to figure it out, we want to dive in and do the thing and heal ourselves. And my approach, that's the goal, the goal is to have this kind of holistic healing, and sometimes we have to train our brain how the heck to do that before we actually have the ability to do revisiting. And a big part of my training is in dialectical behavior therapy, which is a very behavior focused, it's probably the most behavior focused type of therapy you can get. Alyssa Rabin  10:38Which is, explain it a little bit. Erin Bonner  10:40Yes. So the concept of dialectical behavior therapy - so, DBT - is that it accounts for biology. So it was a therapy designed in the 80s by a gal named Marsha Linehan, who is this brilliant clinical social worker, I believe. Don't come for me, DBT community, if she's a psychologist. I think she's a clinical social worker, she has borderline personality disorder and went through every single therapy in the book. Luckily, she's also unbelievably brilliant. And so she kind of picked and chose parts of therapies that were helpful, even though no one therapy helped her. Lori Bean  11:17Okay. Erin Bonner  11:17And so what DBT does, it accounts for this biology, this emotional sensitivity, and not in a judgmental way. It's, 'hey, if my brain has a brain that feels emotions more intensely than the average person, I am emotionally sensitive'. Me too, absolutely! Alyssa's raising her hand. I absolutely am this way and so probably this is why I've connected with this therapy. Because sometimes our emotion system overrides our ability to think straight, to be, you know, rational, to know what we know. And so DBT really takes that into account in its approach, through behaviors, but also through treatment processing. So in order to revisit sometimes, to revisit the past, which might look like, you know, conversation about past experiences, it might be, you know, formal trauma treatments, like prolonged exposure. It might be understanding self in a different way. And so, you know, cracking into that egg of self identity, and, you know, breaking it down so we can rebuild it up. Sometimes, before we actually can do that, we actually need to train our brain how to experience an emotion first. Lori Bean  12:17Oh, interesting! Erin Bonner  12:19Yeah. Have you ever had an experience or an emotion happens - I'm maybe looking at Alyssa since she did volunteer - have you ever had a moment where an emotion has happened, and all you can see is that emotion? Alyssa Rabin  12:31Yes. Erin Bonner  12:31Like there isn't rational and you're in that place of emotion. And all we can think about is, like, how the heck do we survive this emotion? Alyssa Rabin  12:38Absolutely. Erin Bonner  12:39And our brain has built in some, like, you know, survival mechanisms. You know, the old fight, freeze, or fly. And that absolutely is survival, except it's often not functional in our day to day life. And so unless, you know, we're being attacked by a mountain lion, then yeah, I want to do all of those things. And I want to, you know, biologically save myself. In those moments where we're flooded with emotion, sometimes we need to train our brain to know what to do to be able to get access to the smart part of our brain, to, you know, challenge thoughts or to think critically, or to sit with an emotion without having to do anything about it. Alyssa Rabin  13:16So before you actually dive into the past quote/unquote trauma, you teach your brain first and the person how to deal with those emotions that will probably come about. Erin Bonner  13:32Absolutely. Lori Bean  13:33Oh, that is so interesting! Alyssa Rabin  13:36See, I could be a psychologist. Lori Bean  13:46Brilliant,. Alyssa Rabin  13:46I love that. Erin Bonner  13:47It's neat, because, I mean, we're all unique and different and complex, but we're all pretty simple as humans to. And so the truth is to process past experiences, to heal trauma, we have to do this revisiting. And, you know, there are some people that you know, biologically, genetically got that scratch off ticket that was a winning ticket, and their brain is just able to do it. Hey, let's start off and dive into trauma, great! So this is people that, like, that really benefit from, you know, therapies like maybe some somatic work or EMDR, or even like life coaching. Absolutely. Brain says I know how to do the processing thing, I just gotta have a space to talk about it. Not everybody has that, though. Alyssa Rabin  13:55So then you would, quote/unquote, pass those off to somatic therapists. Erin Bonner  14:35Potentially, yeah. Alyssa Rabin  14:37Interesting. Lori Bean  14:38So what's the difference between DBT and CBT? Erin Bonner  14:41I love that question. This is where my, like, nerdy psychologist comes. And that's a word I've reclaimed, it's not a judgment. I love this part about myself because I get really excited about this because it's not something that people know. We hear all of these different therapies and we hear all these different names and brain goes, 'great, I just want to feel better'. And knowing the therapies is actually a really important part in us choosing, like, what path we're gonna go down, who we're going to connect with. Because if I'm talking about behaviors and then someone is, like, 'what' and I want to talk about, you know, my inner child, it's probably not going to connect. And so knowing a bit about the therapies, I think it's really important. So here - I wish I had like a flowchart I could show everybody as I'm describing this. Lori Bean  15:25PowerPoint. Erin Bonner  15:26Absolutely. Vanna White over here. So everyone listening can just imagine that I'm doing that. I don't have a, you know, a nice dress like Vanna, but - Alyssa Rabin  15:37- but you look really cute. Erin Bonner  15:38Thanks. So the difference between CBT and DBT is that DBT can kind of be thought of as like advanced CBT. And not in a, like, you graduate and you do DBT. Alyssa Rabin  15:48What does DBT stand for? Erin Bonner  15:50Dialectical Behavior Therapy. Alyssa Rabin  15:52Okay. Erin Bonner  15:53So CBT is often what we think about when we think about talk therapy. It's the whole change your thoughts, feel different, do different. Alyssa Rabin  16:02So what does CBT stands for? Erin Bonner  16:05So CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. And so in CBT, often what we're looking at is we're understanding how our behaviors and our thoughts influence each other and how they impact our emotions. There's a diagram that lots of CBT therapists will draw, it's a triangle, it's a really fancy diagram. On the top they'll write T, and on one of the bottom corners, they'll write a B, and on the other corner, they'll write an E or an F for feelings. And so in CBT, there's this triangle, the CBT triangle. And so it's that thoughts impact behaviors impact emotions. And then we'll draw, like, these arrows between all of those three corners and go, okay, emotions impact thoughts and thoughts impact emotions. Thoughts impact behaviors, behaviors impact thoughts. Behaviors and emotions, they both impact each other. And so CBT really is this idea that we want to understand our thoughts first, how do we change thoughts so it impacts our behavior, which then impacts our emotions. And so if we can change that cycle, that feedback cycle, we're probably going to feel better. Alyssa Rabin  17:03Okay, so thoughts such as, like, I'm not worthy. Erin Bonner  17:08Absolutely. A solid shame thought. Uncomfortable. Alyssa Rabin  17:12Absolutely and completely. Lori Bean  17:14Which would impact a behavior of not showing up for something. Erin Bonner  17:20Totally. Or, like, self sabotage or never seeing no, never having boundaries. Absolutely. And so from a cognitive behavioral perspective, we look at that thought and go, 'okay, so how do we challenge that thought, so then behaviors and emotions, so the emotion of shame in that instance, can actually shift'. We're creating new patterns in our brain that change our functioning. And so the difference in DBT is we're actually doing the same thing, but we're going behavior first. And we go behavior first, because - and this is the nerdy part, ready? So when we are in a moment where emotion is really high, whether it's due to our biology, so maybe we're a highly sensitive person, maybe we have something like borderline personality disorder, which I think is a highly stigmatized diagnosis. And it really just means that we're a person with incredibly high emotions. And then we've had an environment where we've been invalidated a lot for it. Maybe with trauma, maybe not. I can get on a soapbox about that and I won't for the sake of today. Or maybe we've had major traumas, maybe it's been childhood trauma that's happened over, you know, years and years. Maybe it's been instances, and it doesn't necessarily matter what type of trauma, it's that it happened. I think sometimes we associate highly sensitive people with, like, sexual trauma. Not necessarily it can be kind of any type of trauma. I often think of even if we're a person that just has a higher than normal, not normal, higher than average emotion experience, the experience of our own emotions can be pretty traumatizing. Alyssa Rabin  18:50Totally, Erin Bonner  18:52if anyone's had a panic attack, yeah, that can be pretty dang traumatizing. And so if we've had this experience, what ends up happening is our brain functioning is altered. We don't have access to the, you know, intelligent front part of our brain, our prefrontal cortex, in the same way. And we really need that part of our brain online all the time to be able to challenge thoughts. So that same task of 'I'm not worthy' or 'I'm not good enough', in CBT, we go alright, we got to challenge that thought. If we have that emotion experience that's pretty high, the likelihood that we have the brainpower to challenge that thought and it stick, isn't there. Lori Bean  19:28So interesting. Erin Bonner  19:30So in DBT, we go - and the people that have invented DBT and turned it into the therapy that is today and the theory that it is today, they take that biology piece into account - and they go 'okay, so maybe we have to do behaviors first to change brain functioning'. So having skills, is the DBT lingo, to be able to address our physiology so we can turn all parts of our brain back on, maybe reduce intensity of emotion slightly, so we have full access to our brain. So we can biologically do that changing thinking thing. Lori Bean  20:01So what does that look like? Give us an example of when you approach a behavior first. Erin Bonner  20:06Yeah. So the classic... and it's often if I, you know, meet somebody and I go, 'okay, we need some skills here, this is maybe more DBT informed type therapy' because even though I'm trained in DBT, I came from a practice that was full fidelity. If somebody needs full fidelity DBT, I will send my client to that clinic, they are fantastic at what they do. If you need full fidelity, the whole shebang of DBT, I don't offer that anymore. I offer DBT informed practice. What that means is, in the first couple of sessions, I would teach somebody a skill, like the TIPP skill, and what the TIPP skill - everything in DBT is acronym - so it stands for Temperature, Intense exercise, Paced breathing, Paired muscle relaxation. So TIPP. So these are four behaviors that a) increase our parasympathetic activation, our body's natural cooldown system. And so there are behaviors that we do that quickly change our physiology, which then impacts our ability to function, and it impacts our ability to access the parts of our brain that we need to be able to, you know, do mindfulness or do distraction or think critically. Lori Bean  20:07So does the client approach this TIPP when they're in a behavior? They're recognizing that they're in an irrational behavior, like let's say they're having a panic attack. Is that considered a behavior? Erin Bonner  21:25Absolutely. Panic attack is a great moment for a skill like the TIPP skill, because we're in that moment, we are flooded with emotion, the emotion is controlling everything we do, and so - Lori Bean  21:37- which is a behavior. Erin Bonner  21:38Right? And so we're in that moment of panic attack, yes, the panic is the emotion but the behaviors might be crying, the behaviors might be avoiding, the behaviors might be, you know, freezing and not being able to function. And so we need something to, like, in the least clinical way knock our brain down a few pegs in a way that doesn't have long term negative consequences. Alyssa Rabin  21:59Okay, and so that you can more or less focus on regulating yourself. Erin Bonner  22:04Exactly. Because it's our survival mechanisms, those built in behaviors that go with intense emotions, our brain comes up with behaviors to try and regulate. This is why we avoid things kind of, you know, pathologically. Or we use substances. Our brain's feeling really dang intense for whatever emotion our brain trends towards, and so, you know, you pop a pill or take some drinks and brain is numbed a little bit for a short period of time. And so I really, I take this stance with every single one of my clients that every behavior that we have identified - hey, I probably got to do something about this behavior, and I got to change it - it's actually serving a function. It's our brain's way of trying to regulate itself in any way that it can, which I take a stance because it doesn't help to, you know, add a layer of shame of like, 'oh, you shouldn't be doing that'. It doesn't help. Alyssa Rabin  22:19You're doing it almost to save yourself from something and that something is what you need to recognize. Erin Bonner  23:01Exactly. Because as humans, we're complex - I say this a lot - we're complex, but yet we're very simple. Or, and we're very simple in that our brain responds to reward and relief. And so if we engage in a behavior that offers us, like, even the tiniest sliver of relief, brain goes 'oh, that helped'. Even if later on it creates chaos. Brain only learns from that, like, immediate moment and so a skill like the TIPP skill is saying, 'wait, I'm gonna forego that, like, moment of relief for something that might actually start helping in the longer term'. Lori Bean  23:35Wow. Erin Bonner  23:36I like to call this TIPP skill my, like, nerdy therapist party trick because I can reduce your heart rate to below resting heart rate in, like, 30 to 60 seconds. Alyssa Rabin  23:44Do it. Erin Bonner  23:48Give me a little bit of space after. Lori Bean  23:51I will attest that Erin has given me that skill when I personally find my nervous system just dysregulated. That kind of feeling where you're very overwhelmed, you almost feel like you want to crawl out of your body, like, you don't, you can't really differentiate between, like, is it anxiety? Is it overwhelm? Is it stress? I'm uncomfortable, I can't process. Alyssa Rabin  24:20There's too much coming down on your brain and your shoulders. Lori Bean  24:23And you literally feel like you want to crawl out of your body. This little tip has been a lifesaver. Erin Bonner  24:31It's cool. It's neat because it's not a skill that is going to change your life. It's not solving all of your life's problems. What it's doing is it's giving you access to your brain in a moment where you might need your brain. It's giving you this window, this window of access that, you know, either we can, you know, do something. So like you said earlier, Alyssa, start regulating emotion with another behavior or thinking different. Or our brain will just go back to being triggered by whatever it was triggered with before. Lori Bean  24:59Wow, amazing. Alyssa Rabin  25:02So I just have a quick question for you. So I know how amazing you are. Erin Bonner  25:07Thank you. Alyssa Rabin  25:08How would I, as a client, choose to do therapy with you? Instead of, like, a somatic therapy, or a life coaching therapy? What would I need to know as a client? Which direction to go in? Erin Bonner  25:27I love that question. And I think there's kind of different parts to it. Part of it's gonna be personality. Alyssa Rabin  25:32Absolutely. We spoke about, yeah, the connection - Erin Bonner  25:35There's a huge statistic. If you have a connection, what the person does, like, it probably matters less. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all, it means it probably matters less. Alyssa Rabin  25:45Ah, interesting. Erin Bonner  25:46I don't want to discount, you know, the theory and the type of therapy altogether, because sometimes we just need a different therapy, even if we really liked that person. I know I've had that as therapist where I have this huge connection with a client and I go, 'I think we've reached our limit and you got to find somebody else, because' - Lori Bean  26:03- this approach isn't working. Erin Bonner  26:04Just becasue we like each other, that's not enough in this instance. So it's part of a big part of the picture, but not the whole picture. I think a big part of understanding what therapist is gonna fit for you, is looking into kind of the theory. And you don't have to research it, like, so you're an expert. You got to read about each of the therapies and, like, Google is great for this. Pull up the Wikipedia page. Well, what is the therapy that they offer? What's it all about? And do I kind of like it? Lori Bean  26:34Does it feel in alignment? Erin Bonner  26:35Totally. Does it speak to me? And so I think that piece is important, because, I know if somebody is a psychoanalyst, yes, there's tons of research behind psychoanalytic - that's the whole Freud stuff - if that speaks to somebody, I can tell you right now, you're gonna get 0% of that with me. I don't do it. I don't, it's not what I do as a therapist. And so if that's what speaks to your brain, we can get along and, you know, be buddies in the therapy room, and it's not going to speak to you in the same way. And so knowing kind of what theory pulls you, that's going to be a big part of deciding who you work with. And then the second piece is you you gotta kind of like them. Lori Bean  27:12Yeah, but it doesn't really mean that one is better than the other. Erin Bonner  27:15Absolutely not. Lori Bean  27:16Like I think about somatic therapy, like internal family therapy. You know, reading up about that, I was like, 'oh, this is really interesting, and kind of resonates with me as a person and what I'm in alignment with'. But it doesn't mean that the different therapies cannot approach the same issues, correct? Erin Bonner  27:34Totally. Totally. I think the one difference is, if there are, you know, something like OCD. If there is a clinical diagnosis that you're coming in with, for example, you have OCD, the likelihood that anything but exposure with response prevention is going to help you is just lower. Doesn't mean there's no other option. It means that you want to look for the treatment that is the most empirically supported treatment for your diagnosis. That's where the 'diagnosis directs treatment' idea comes in. And so, yeah, there are certain areas where you've got to be a little bit more choosy about the theory. And, for lots of people, it matters more about what speaks to you, and about that connection with the therapist. And one theory or one therapy doesn't have to solve all of what's going on for you. Maybe there are pieces. This is something that a mentor that I worked with a couple years ago said that he was kind of grappling with, 'well, I want to be able to, like, you know, help everybody that comes to this door, and I want to see their, you know, start to completion'. And as therapists, I think sometimes we have to humble ourselves a little bit. We're not all, like, saviors. Even though we might have a savior complex. I'm a little guilty of that sometimes. That maybe it's just this piece, maybe it's a piece of work that somebody does with me, and then they do a piece of work with somebody else. And that's - Lori Bean  28:52- or maybe they need something altogether different, like -  Erin Bonner  28:56- like acupuncture. Lori Bean  28:57Yeah. Or naturopathy. Or a movement class. Or some additional support. Erin Bonner  29:03Absolutely. Alyssa Rabin  29:03It's interesting, because once clients, I've had some clients ask me in the past, well, why would I choose psychology over soul coaching or life coaching or... And I kind of put it like, therapy, the psychology therapy, is almost to work on what's there. And once that's been helped, as much as it can be helped, and you're ready to move on to the next level, that's when you go on to the life coaching and life therapy. So it's, everything is a process. Erin Bonner  29:39Yeah, I had a conversation with Jadine our life coach about, like, how do we decide who is the most effective fit? And she and I had this really cool conversation about if somebody comes in the doors and they go, 'okay, I'm just feeling stuck on my next step'. They don't necessarily have trauma they want to work through or it's not the time for them to work through their trauma. Because sometimes it's important to really understand that even if you have trauma, it might not always be the time to work on it. And that's a very acceptable and probably effective choice to make for ourselves. But it's more about that I want to think future focus, I want to think about how the heck do I get myself to the next step? That's where life coaching is a great option. Lori Bean  30:17Or big life changes. Like I'm a new mom. So I just had a baby and my life is just completely changed, and how do I navigate this? Needing support around that. Erin Bonner  30:28Actually, I love that example. Because that's when we can kind of guide into two paths. Okay - so what you just said Lori - absolutely life coaching might be a fit. Whereas if there's postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, that's where a psychologist  is probably a better fit. Alyssa Rabin  30:42As well, okay, for me - example, I've been stay at home mom for 16 years. All of a sudden, BAM, I'm working 12/13 hours a week. I need to know how to move forward with that as a mom, as a wife, as a businesswoman. But as well I need to work on my guilt for not being home, and I would see Erin for that. To just say to myself, it's okay, and I'm worth it. Erin Bonner  31:15Totally. Yeah. Alyssa Rabin  31:17Awesome. Lori Bean  31:18Thank you, Erin. Erin Bonner  31:20And if anybody wants to chat more about the biology, just come and knock on my door because I will nerd out for hours. Alyssa Rabin  31:29Thank you so much.

Revelation 3:15 - I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Revelation 3:15-17- 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

In the final episode of 2021, in which we saw huge growth in offshore wind, Allen and Rosemary give their big takeaways from the year along with predictions for what's to come in 2022. Will we see 20MW wind turbines? A development slowdown due to inflation? Regulatory hurdles? Go here for the video about McDonald's ice cream machines mentioned on the show. Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning tech. Learn more about Weather Guard's StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes' YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!  Transcript: EP93 of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast 00:00:37:11 - 00:00:38:13Welcome back. 00:00:38:13 - 00:00:40:00I'm Dan Blewett. 00:00:40:00 - 00:00:44:18I'm Allen Hall and I'm Rosemary Barnes,and this is the Up Time podcast 00:00:44:23 - 00:00:48:03bringing you the latest in windenergy, tech news 00:00:48:03 - 00:00:49:18and policy. 00:00:59:22 - 00:01:00:06All right. 00:01:00:06 - 00:01:02:17Welcome back to the UptimeWind Energy podcast. 00:01:02:18 - 00:01:05:03I'm your co-host, Dan Blewett on today'sshow, 00:01:05:03 - 00:01:08:14we're going to do a sort of 2021a year and wrap up. 00:01:08:23 - 00:01:11:20So aside from a couple topicswhich we're going to talk about, 00:01:12:04 - 00:01:16:00including balsa wood harvesting, obviouslythat's used in wind turbine blades. 00:01:16:00 - 00:01:18:06And as they've expanded in size, 00:01:18:06 - 00:01:21:08that harvesting has sped up,which is threatening the rainforest. 00:01:21:10 - 00:01:22:13We'll talk through that 00:01:22:13 - 00:01:25:16as well as maybe some possiblereplacements for that material 00:01:26:09 - 00:01:27:14in the near future. 00:01:27:14 - 00:01:31:07What about Germany phasing outnuclear power and Siemens Gamesa 00:01:31:07 - 00:01:35:09accepting bids to sell off the winddevelopment arm of their business? 00:01:35:09 - 00:01:37:08And then, as we do our sort of 2021 00:01:37:08 - 00:01:40:16wrap up, we have five questionswe're going to throw to our experts here 00:01:41:05 - 00:01:42:09about, you know, developments. 00:01:42:09 - 00:01:45:13They see predictionsand maybe some surprising things 00:01:45:13 - 00:01:47:07about the year behind us. 00:01:47:07 - 00:01:49:16So look for thatin the second half of today's show. 00:01:49:16 - 00:01:53:15Before we get going, be sure to subscribeto Uptime Tech News, which you will find 00:01:53:15 - 00:01:56:23in the show notes of this podcast,as well as Rosemary's YouTube channel. 00:01:57:07 - 00:01:58:17Where is you doing twice a month? 00:01:58:17 - 00:02:02:03Live streamsand all things renewable and wind energy 00:02:02:03 - 00:02:05:05shows a great job there, so check outboth in the description below. 00:02:05:16 - 00:02:09:22So first thing on the docket today,we're going to talk about balsa wood. 00:02:09:22 - 00:02:13:10So obviously this is used structurallyin wind turbine blades, and the bigger 00:02:13:10 - 00:02:18:08they get, the more this has been usefuland necessary to increase harvesting. 00:02:18:17 - 00:02:21:08And of course, just like anythingas demand goes up, 00:02:21:08 - 00:02:24:16this is putting strainon this natural resource. 00:02:24:18 - 00:02:28:15Rosemary, obviously working for Elm WindPower, you have a pretty good idea of, 00:02:28:16 - 00:02:31:16you know, the vendor relationshipsand all of the materials 00:02:31:16 - 00:02:32:23that go into these blades. 00:02:32:23 - 00:02:35:00Can you take us through this situationwith balsa wood? 00:02:35:00 - 00:02:38:09Like, where does balsa woodfit in to blade construction? 00:02:38:10 - 00:02:38:18Yeah. 00:02:38:18 - 00:02:42:18So Balsa Wood is a sand...

Chapter 1 In the third year ofthe reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.2And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some ofthe vessels of the house of God. And he brought them tothe land of Shinar, to the house of his god,and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god.3Then the king commanded Ashpenaz,his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family[a]and ofthe nobility,4youths withoutblemish, of good appearance andskillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace, and toteach them the literature and language of theChaldeans.5The king assigned them a daily portion ofthe food that the king ate, and ofthe wine that he drank. They were to be educated forthree years, and at the end of that time they were tostand before the king.6Among these wereDaniel,Hananiah,Mishael, andAzariah of the tribe of Judah.7Andthe chief of the eunuchsgave them names:Daniel he called Belteshazzar, Hananiah he called Shadrach, Mishael he called Meshach, and Azariah he called Abednego. 8But Danielresolved that he would notdefile himself withthe king's food, or withthe wine that he drank. Therefore he asked the chief of the eunuchs to allow him not todefile himself.9And God gave Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the chief of the eunuchs,10and the chief of the eunuchs said to Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who assigned your food and your drink; for why should he see that you were in worse condition than the youths who are of your own age? So you would endanger my head with the king.11Then Daniel said to the steward whom the chief of the eunuchs had assigned over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,12Test your servants forten days; let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink.13Then let our appearance and the appearance of the youths who eatthe king's food be observed by you, and deal with your servants according to what you see.14So he listened to them in this matter, and tested them for ten days.15At the end of ten days it was seen that they were better in appearance and fatter in flesh than all the youths who atethe king's food.16So the steward took away their food and the wine they were to drink, and gave themvegetables. 17As for these four youths,God gave them learning andskill in all literature and wisdom, and Daniel hadunderstanding in all visions and dreams.18At the end ofthe time, when the king had commanded that they should be brought in, the chief of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.19And the king spoke with them, and among all of them none was found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. Thereforethey stood before the king.20And in every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than allthe magicians andenchanters that were in all his kingdom.21And Danielwas there until the first year ofKing Cyrus. Chapter 3 8 Therefore at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and maliciously accused the Jews. 9 They declared to King Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live forever! 10 You, O king, have made a decree, that every man who hears the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music, shall fall down and worship the golden image. 11 And whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into a burning fiery furnace. 12 There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the affairs of the province of Babylon: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. These men, O king, pay no attention to you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up. 13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in furious rage commanded that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego be brought. So they brought these men before the king. 14 Nebuchadnezzar answered and said to them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15 Now if you are ready when you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, lyre, trigon, harp, bagpipe, and every kind of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, well and good. But if you do not worship, you shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you out of my hands? 16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up. 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was filled with fury, and the expression of his face was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. He ordered the furnace heated seven times more than it was usually heated. 20 And he ordered some of the mighty men of his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. 21 Then these men were bound in their cloaks, their tunics, their hats, and their other garments, and they were thrown into the burning fiery furnace. 22 Because the king's order was urgent and the furnace overheated, the flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell bound into the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished and rose up in haste. He declared to his counselors, Did we not cast three men bound into the fire? They answered and said to the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

The new Avatar.  The new inspiration for who I can help.  Who perhaps god wants me to help.  I got an iPad Air 4 and am taking notes on it trying to break away from the yellow pads.  You can record 6 days episodes in a two hour setting.  I swear I'm not being a narcissist.  I'm just finding my voice :).  …it's more painful to veer away from the path than the pain to press forward with it. How's that?  The fledgling Funnel Hacker.  The fledgling online business creator.  Help them get to the Two Comma Club Award.  I.e. $1,000,000 in revenue :).  …craft a new vision.Administrative: (See episode transcript below)Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjGet A Course In Miracles Here! https://amzn.to/3hoE7sAAccess my “Insiders Guide to Finding Peace” here: https://belove.media/peaceSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript: Mischa Zvegintzov  00:02I'm going to get to it while the mind is fresh, and cranking away.  I was meditating this morning, I do want to say...  Well what main thing I want to talk about is the new avatar for me, or my new direction that that new inspiration and embracing it, that new inspiration towards who I think I can help. Even more specifically, who perhaps, God wants me to help, or the infinite intelligence or the universe with the creative mind, that capital S inner self. Oh my gosh, I've got all these Apple products. And I tried to silence them all for when I record, but I got a new iPad Air 4 I think it is. So I could start taking notes everywhere instead of on yellow pads on an iPad, which has been awesome and amazing. And I strongly encourage everybody to go after it. The pen works you know, the Apple Pencil is freaking awesome. The the tech is fine. You can... it's really cool what you can do and organize and, and all that stuff. There's some bumps as I break away from the yellow pads as much but that's okay. Oh my god, where was I going with all this so?Mischa Zvegintzov  01:43Break breathe. So the last episode I recorded, I'm going to give you a little insight to a little secret, which you may or may not know. But you can record six days episodes in a two hour setting. For example, if you were doing if you were doing 8 to 12 minute episodes. podcast episodes, an eight to 12 minute episode every day, and you were to record five of those. What's that? An hour and a half? Let's say. you know, let's assume each one is 10 minutes. On average, that's 15 minutes. Perhaps you have a minute or three or four break in between. So your... the illusion of the timeline is just that. Like perhaps the last episode that that I recorded in this line of thinking of who's my avatar and who am I going to serve? There's that damn iPad 4 beeping at me again, distracting me. Damn you, Apple. Where was I? Oh my gosh, this is just awesome. A quick side note. It's really funny. recording an episode every day to your podcast, blog or YouTube channel. It can feel in the moment like this moment right now incredibly self centered. Um, what's that narcissistic. Someone said to me and not have service in the moment as a microcosm, is that the right word? As a small brief window of the whole thing. Like if I just look at this episode right here, it could sound like "Oh, Mischa is just talking about his own stuff. Blah, blah, blah." But in reality, it is truly helping me be of service to you and the world and my developing niche in a better manner.Mischa Zvegintzov  04:16So how about that? So in the moment to anybody just jumping in on this episode. They could be like, Who is this narcissist talking about himself. But in reality, it's helping me find my voice, the elusive voice and I'm definitely gaining ground. Opened up all these these thought loops. I apologize. I seem to be very good at that being distracted. So be it. Welcome to the journey. If you are a fledgling funnel hacker, a fledgling online a fledgling if you're a fledgling Online Business creator, how's that you're trying to create, go go online with a business create an online business? If you're a fledgling person, entrepreneur, online entrepreneur, how about that a fledgling online entrepreneur, or a fledgling funnel hacker means you're kind of brand new to it all. Then perhaps if your vision is not super clear, like some people jump into this game, and they have this, I meet them all the time, their vision is so pure and so clear. Like, how awesome is that? It's so easy to just, well, looks easy'er to, to follow the instructions on how to build your online business, right? And so I am a fledgling funnel hacker that's really good at following the steps and implementing the steps. Like get each step each successive step done. And you will be that much closer to the Two Comma Club Award. That's the goal as a fledgling Funnel Hacker is to get clarity and get vision and get to that Two Comma Club Award. So I can help people do that. So actually, I'm committing to that. Trying one day at a time to commit to that. And whenever I veer away from that, these days, it gets really painful, psychically painful, more painful to veer away from it than the pain to press forward with it. How's that?Mischa Zvegintzov  06:45So I'm sorry, divorced dads, or you or you, high performers that have fallen off the horse, and are ready to get back on. Actually, you can still be my avatar, you are part of that avatar. Because creating an online business and crafting a new vision. That's what I'm doing. Crafting a new vision. I need to write that down. Thank you crafting a new vision. Word my pen go. I'm writing this down. Thank you patients. I suppose I could hit pause. I'll do that. See, thank you. That's, that was me. That was the process and actually crafting the vision forward. I love that. So one of the hats that my you know what? Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. That's such a juicy little thing. So you find all hackers out there that are ready to blaze the trail to the two comma Club Award, and would like help in that regard by following the path doing the blocking...block... blocking and tackling. Implementing the key steps. I'm still talking, figuring out how to talk about it. That's where we're going. That's where I'm going. And whenever I go back to the capital S inner self, the higher intelligence that's where I'm led. And one of the hats of the people within that could be a high performing dad, excuse me a high performing get divorced dad wanting to get back on the horse, or just a high performer who's ready to get back on the horse.Mischa Zvegintzov  08:47A little bit of babbling going on here. But that is that thank you for hanging in there with me. Thank you for being a part of the process. Thank you for helping me craft the broader vision. Refine my vision. I can actually tell you the exact episode by publishing every day where that happened. I can tell you where and when the new inspiration came to me. I can tell you where I flip flop back to the old and then where the new vision was presented again "This is it. This is it show no fear". That's what I've got little little little fuzzy but brain was cranking I wanted to I wanted to record. I have. And yeah so... I am going to show... what... I'm going to be... try to hold conviction on this new avatar. You fledgling funnel hackers that would like to solidify your path your vision to the Two Comma Club Stage to $1 million in gross revenue. That's what that is the Two Comma Club. I'm writing down again, your path, your vision to the Two Comma Club Stage. So basically you fledgling online entrepreneurs that would like to get to a million dollars in annual revenue, gross revenue. I'm your man. Your fledgling, you're just getting started. I can help you. I'm a few steps ahead. And I am doing it. I'm so good at sticking to the the steps. I've done it in so many different ways in my life, areas of my life and had success putting engines in cars. Getting clean and sober. Became a yoga teacher. It's hyper competitive to be a yoga teacher here in Encinitas, California. The hotspot of yoga teaching. I could go on and on That's it. I'm done. I will not hold you hostage any any longer. I believe I close the loop answered the question, addressed the point. Peace out.

If God is leading you to be active in your church, this episode is for you! Prophet, discover 9 different ways you can walk in your prophetic ministry. By the end of the episode, you will have at least one direction to go in. #IPromise Discover how the Lord wants you to minister to your church. In this episode, you will be able to identify the strengths the Holy Spirit is trying to pull out of you. You will get training on how to build a character that your pastor admires and wants to work with.  “You are called to do more than to just be... you are called to do in the church! Today, I want you to know that you are a mighty man/woman,” says Apostle Colette Toach. Join your prophetic trainers. Push play now.  Key Scripture: 2 Samuel 23:16So the three mighty men broke through the camp of the Philistines, drew water from the well of Bethlehem that was by the gate, and took it and brought it to David. Nevertheless he would not drink it, but poured it out to the Lord.   Gotta know more? Discover your talents by reading the book below!  Prophetic Functions (Digital Book) Nextgenprophets.org   Question Answered: How would I transition (or rise up) from being a member who is rather "quiet" and "inactive" to be the prophet in the church that the Lord is calling me to be?   Asked By: Loretta Golden (Elk Grove Village, Illinois, USA)   Become A Sponsor of The Next Gen ProphetsHelp us Train God's Prophets Around The World    Get Connected with Apostles Craig and Colette Toach   Follow Apostles Toach!Facebook.com/ToachMinistries Submit Your Question to the Apostles:ToachMinistries.com Join the Ranks of Next Gen Prophets!Prophetic-School.com  

Romans 14:1323 (ESV) Do Not Cause Another to Stumble 13Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Disciple Up # 231 Dead Works By Louie Marsh, 10-6-2021   Good Works vs. Dead Works   The Bible has much to say about good works and also about dead works. Most people assume that dead works refers to overtly sinful stuff and “bad behavior” while good works talks about things like showing acts of kindness towards others   Serving God is Good!   I'm not saying serving God is bad. But I am saying that you don't become acceptable to God through your works, and sometimes works can be dead and a stumbling block to our spiritual growth!   Dead Works   In the Bible the phrase “dead works” is only found in the book of Hebrews.   “1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits.” (Hebrews 6:1–3, ESV)   Repentance from dead works is a foundational thing. Repentance means to change the way we think. Do an about face, go in the exact opposite direction.   Some Possible Dead Works:   Praying can be a dead or good work. Attending church can be a dead or good work. Reading the Bible can be a dead or good work. Telling others about Jesus can be a dead or good work.   Biblical Examples:   Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'— Matthew 7:22-23   “1“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “ ‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.” (Revelation 3:1–3, ESV)   “15“ ‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.” (Revelation 3:15–18, ESV)   I know a lot of people who are serving in a ministry or a position in their church purely because they don't feel they can say no. There's no real joy in it for them. They view it as a drag on them and are only doing it because they are people pleasers who refuse to tell the Pastor, Elder, etc. no when asked to serve.   Those could be great examples of dead works.   What are the end result of dead works?   “10According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:10–15, ESV)   You can do all sorts of good things but do them in your own power, or do them for your own purposes (like being noticed, praised, becoming popular, etc.) that would render those good things as dead work.   Dead works can be good works.   “4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” (John 15:4–6, ESV)   The Cure for Dead Works:   1) Repentance.   This means we have to turn away from them. We have to learn how to say no when that's necessary!   2) Revive Our Spiritual Lives.   Get back to Christ and do whatever you're doing in Him! Apart from him lie only dead works. It'll look good to people, but it'll be dead in God's sight and disappear in a puff of smoke on the judgement day.            

In our new three-week series, Found, we'll explore the depth and breath of God's love. You'll discover that you're never too far or too lost to experience his grace and forgiveness. I've accepted Jesus • https://willamette.cc/follow-christ • Let us know you made this decision, and we'll help you discover what's next! Get Baptized • https://willamette.cc/baptisms • If you have accepted Jesus but have never had the opportunity to celebrate your new life in Him through water baptism, this is your next step! Find Community • https://willamette.cc/community • Growth happens best in community. Community Life starts this week! Let us pray with you • https://willamette.cc/prayer • Fill out a quick form to let us know how we can be praying for you. Sermon Notes - September 12th, 2021Found Son - Dayne ScanlonGod has reconciled himself to us through Jesus. But receiving that gift means living a life of reconciliation. Luke 15:1-2 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Luke 15:11-12Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them. Luke 15:13-16“Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country, and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. Luke 15:13-16So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. Luke 15:17-19“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. Luke 15:17-19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.' Luke 15:20-24So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. Luke 15:20-24“The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. Luke 15:20-24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.Luke 15:25-30“Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. ‘Your brother has come,' he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.' Luke 15:25-30“The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. Luke 15:25-30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!' When our identity is rooted in our works, its impossible to celebrate God's grace for others. We're all in need of the father. Do you have the heart of the father?2 Corinthians 5:17-18Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 2 Corinthians 5:20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. Reconcile yourself to God. Become an active reconciler. Luke 15:31-32“‘My son,' the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'”

SERMON GUIDE The Book of James Part 3 - James 1:12-18 Order of Service Welcome - Pastor Jason & Andrea Worship - Grace on top of Grace Scripture Reading - James 1:12-18 (please stand) Sermon - Pastor Jason Communion Worship - In Christ Alone Worship - Worthy Worship - Great Things Dismissal - Pastor Joe James 1:12-18 12God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. 14Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. 16So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. 17Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. 18He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession. Congregational Prayer Jesus, here I am again, Desiring a thing that were I to have it would birth death against my soul. Given the choice of shame or glory, let me choose glory. Given the choice of this moment or eternity, let me choose what is eternal. Given the choice of this easy pleasure, or the harder road of the cross, give me grace to follow you, Let obedience build something beautiful, Let the faithful progression of small choices, become like stones laid end to end, creating a path that leads me closer to you. Oh Lord, in the furnace of temptation, do not let me be deceived, believing that I might find the piece and satisfaction I long for, apart from your presence Faced with this temptation, I would rather choose You, Jesus. But I am weak. So be my strength. I am shattered. So be my life. I am selfish. So remake me now, Create in me new desires according to the better designs of your love. Amen *Parts of this prayer were taken from Douglas Kaine McKelvey: Every Moment Holy pg.165

In todays episode, you will learn what the foundation of true freedom is in our nation.“True Freedom begins in the government of God in Christ Jesus.” —Barry H. DurmazThe other 6 days a week, Sean Morgan hosts shows about defeating America's enemies through civic solutions. On Sundays, he interviews author Barry H. Durmaz about Christ's Kingdom government principles for spiritual solutions to America's problems.Subscribe To Podcast and Video Channels:http://SundayScriptures.orgSocial Links: https://linktr.ee/SundayScripturesForPatriotsBarry H. Durmaz:https://LibertyIsTheLaw.USSupport and Love our Mission —Join our Treasure Team!https://www.libertyisthelaw.us/treasure_volunteerSean Morgan:https://SeanMorganReport.comKeep me on the front lines of the digital battlefield by supporting my work here: https://donorbox.org/seanmorganreportSponsors Who Support Our Ministry:Get a Free Gold Consultation.Call Dr. Kirk Elliott at +1 720-605-3900 https://SovereignAdvisors.net/pages/seanmorgan/Is the corporate coffee you drink contributing to America's decline?Support A Christian Patriot Coffee Companyhttps://www.TheGreatAwakeningCoffee.com/QFAQDiscount Code: QFAQHero Soap Company makes natural soap that is healthier for you and your family using essential oils, goats milk, and coconut oil. If you have sensitive or dry skin, it's perfect for you.Every purchase helps the heroes like homeless vets get a place to live. Go to www.HeroSoapCompany.com/discount/qfaqCoupon Code QFAQScriptures Referenced In This Episode:Matthew 4:4But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' ”Genesis 37, 39 - 47Matthew 20:16So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”Matthew 11:28-29Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”1 John 3:4Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.John 7:37-38On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.Isaiah 55:8-9“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,So are My ways higher than your ways,And My thoughts than your thoughts.1 Corinthians 9:7Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?Support the show (https://donorbox.org/seanmorganreport)

July 13th, 2021 ... WEEKLY BIBLE STUDY WITH SCOTT: Do we need a Early Church Earthquake? SCRIPTURE: Acts 4:23–31 (NKJV) 23And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: ‘Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness. Acts 16:25–30 (NKJV) 25But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed. 27And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.” 29Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Romans 8:1–2 (NKJV) 1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:11 (NKJV) 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. John 14:12–14 (NKJV) 12“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. Revelation 3:15–16 (NKJV) 15“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

“And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”Luke 22:31-32Jesus is doing that very thing right now in Heaven as I speak to you. That's right, His ministry is intercession - standing in the gap for you and me. There is nothing more powerful on earth than intercessory prayer. You see, I am not an intercessor, I am a prayer warrior but an intercessor is a specific ministry and I hold intercessors in the highest regard. My dear wife Jill is an intercessor and many a time she will bring me a word that is right on-line. I have a team of intercessors who are praying for Shalom Ministries, 24-7. A young man called Anton is heading them up. We have hundreds and hundreds of intercessors praying for this ministry right around the world. When people come to me and say, “What can we do to help?” I only have one answer - Please pray for us, because I know that "The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man or woman avails much." That is what it says in James 5:16So mom, don't worry about your children - Intercede for them. Young people, don't worry about your old folks at this time with this horrible, ugly COVID-19, pray for them. You see, Jesus prayed for Peter that the devil would not sift him but that he would not fail in his ministry, that his strength would be kept and that his faith would continue.If Christ Himself is interceding on our behalf today, surely that tells you and me just how vital prayer is in these troublesome times that we are living. You see, this Intercessor of ours, the Lord Jesus Christ - Hebrews 4:14 tells us that He understands what we are going through because He has walked this road before us. He knows them all, He knows every pitfall - He is not interceding blindly. He is praying that today you and I will not get sifted. We must trust in the faithfulness of God.An old gentleman, who has since gone to be with the Lord Jesus Christ, phoned me many years ago and He said: “Angus, I am too old. I can't go down that well anymore but what I can do is stand at the top of the well as you go down and I will hold the rope."We need to hold the rope - We need to pray and God will do the rest.Have a wonderful week.God bless you and goodbye.

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF EPISODEProvided by Otter.aiEoin Trainor  00:00The views and opinions expressed in Eye on the Triangle do not represent WKNC or the student media. Eoin Trainor  00:34Good evening Raleigh and welcome to this week's Eye on the Triangle an NC State student produced news show on WKNC 88.1 FM HD-1 Raleigh. I'm Eoin Trainor. On tonight's episode, you'll hear my interview with Brooke Dickhart, Brooke is the executive director of the Joel Fund Wake Forest nonprofit that serves veterans. The Joel Fund recently received a federal grant to implement one of its programs at Walter Reed Medical Center. We talked about that, the Joel funds mission and much more. Afterwards is Elizabeth Esser's interview with Dr. Paul Kaloostian, a neurosurgeon and author. Elizabeth talked to him about the effects of stress on college students cognitive functioning. But first you have a quick story from the North Carolina News Service enjoy. Nadia Ramlagan  01:15North Carolina is ramping up plans to lease offshore wind-energy areas to developers, as the Biden administration expresses support for those efforts. The green light comes one year before a decade-long Trump-era moratorium on offshore development is slated to go into effect – on July 1st of next year. Despite the pending moratorium, which includes wind-energy, Democratic Congresswoman Deborah Ross of Raleigh says the state is poised to be a leader in offshore power generation and manufacturing. Deborah Ross  01:43And, with a bipartisan effort in our delegation to seek the ability to harness the best offshore wind in the country – and associated research and technology that will go with it – it will benefit North Carolina for decades to come. Nadia Ramlagan  02:02Earlier this year, Ross sent a letter signed by a bipartisan group of North Carolina lawmakers urging the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management to hold lease sales for two of the state's existing wind-energy areas in federal waters off the coast of Wilmington. It's unlikely the Trump moratorium on offshore development would be overturned in such a divided Congress. But Jaime Simmons of the Southeastern Wind Coalition says the most recent move is a sign the Biden administration is willing to take prompt action before the moratorium begins. Jaime Simmons  02:32We're in a unique position here in North Carolina, because we already have what's called wind energy areas identified. It gives a signal to those manufacturers; it gives them the certainty that they need to start making those investments. Nadia Ramlagan  02:47Director of North Carolina Political Affairs for the Environmental Defense Fund David Kelly points out the state already has a reputation as a clean-energy leader and a hub for clean tech. David Kelly  02:58It's reassuring to know that our state's leaders in Congress recognize the opportunity that offshore wind, emerging as a industry in the United States, offers. And that they're taking action to make sure North Carolina is well-positioned to compete for wind-energy jobs. Nadia Ramlagan  03:13Offshore wind is expected to create a 70-billion-dollar supply chain and tens of thousands of new jobs in the United States by 2030. For North Carolina News Service, I'm Nadia Ramlagan. Eoin Trainor  03:31This is Eoin Trainer with WKNC 88.1's Eye on the Triangle and I'm here with Brooke Dickhart, the executive director of the Joel Fund fund, a veterans nonprofit based in Wake Forest. Brooke, welcome to the program.  Brooke Dickhart  03:41Thank you so much for having me.  Eoin Trainor  03:43To start, would you mind telling us a little bit about what the Joel Fund does? Brooke Dickhart  03:48Absolutely. So the Joel Fund helps connect veterans to their communities. We do this through three main programs, we have a resource connection where we will work one on one with veterans and their family members to connect them to the services that they're looking for. We have operation art, which is our art classes for veterans and their family members. And then operation furnish, which is a furniture program locally where we can find gently used donated items for veterans in need. Eoin Trainor  04:20And I've heard that you have a new program of expressive writing classes as part of Operation Art would you mind telling us a little bit about that? Brooke Dickhart  04:27Absolutely. So this program was something that I started in honor of my dad because I after he passed away I found sheets of yellow legal paper where he had tried to write his story and I figured if he had trouble doing it then others probably do also. And so we started working with a with an amazing local writer to develop a class we also worked with a couple of veterans from the Vietnam Veterans of America to develop this class and we launched it a little over a year ago. And it has been a very successful program for us. Eoin Trainor  05:07And how have the veterans and their families who have taken the course responded, did they find it helpful? Brooke Dickhart  05:13Absolutely. They even asked us to bring in a therapist for the class. So our classes, we often say that there it's community therapeutic arts, we're not offering art therapy, however, with writing that can trigger a lot of emotions and that sort of thing. And the veterans who helped us develop the curriculum, really wanted there to be a therapist, as the safety net in the class, so that if they were writing about their time in the service, that they could do it in a safe and secure environment. And so because of those things that we have in place, they have really loved the class and have been able to write freely and feel that they can do it safely. Eoin Trainor  05:59And you recently received grant support for the program, what does that enable you to do anything new?  Brooke Dickhart  06:05Yes, so we just recently, were selected from a national search to do a writing program at Walter Reed Medical Military or Military Medical Center out of Bethesda, Maryland, to bring our writing program to their employee wellness program. So we work with people who work in the hospital, some of them are veterans, they are all caregivers, because of the population that they serve. We've even had a couple active duty soldiers who called in from overseas, you know, the technology that we have with virtual, you know, conference calls, and that sort of thing has really been our silver lining story, because we can now reach more veterans and family members across the world because of this technology, it doesn't have to just be centered to our area. And that has enabled us to take our writing program and expand it and bring it to the people at Walter Reed, which is been amazing. Eoin Trainor  07:09Then what was the transition between Wake Forest and Walter Reed like? Was there any kind of new challenges that you encountered? Brooke Dickhart  07:16Oh, yes, for sure. It's a, it's a much different dynamic when you're offering a writing class for people who work together. And in the military, you know, there's a hierarchy hierarchy. So there's a lot of considerations that we did not anticipate that we've had to navigate but they have renewed our contract. And so we're working through all that with Walter Reed. And they're it's their program is called creative forces. Creative forces is art therapy that is offered, I think it's um, 10 sites across the country, on bases, and then at Walter Reed. And so we've been working with the with the folks at creative forces and Walter Reed to make sure that the program is just right for their for the students that we are getting from them. Eoin Trainor  08:06And then the instructor assigns writing prompts, what are these like? And can you give us some examples of what some of them have been? Brooke Dickhart  08:16So the the writing prompts vary every week, and every class and that is based on who's in the class, and you know, what's going on around us during the time. But one example that I can give you that was for this week was described in vivid language, someone you deeply cared for who served our country, and his, and who is no longer with us. So that was their writing prompt heading into Memorial Day weekend. Eoin Trainor  08:48And if you don't mind, telling viewers, what kind of stuff if you know, did some of the veterans write for that one? Brooke Dickhart  08:55That I haven't seen yet actually, they they will be working on it for Actually, today. They have class today. So I haven't seen the writing yet.  Eoin Trainor  09:05And, did COVID kind of create any unique mental health related challenges for the veterans in your programs? And did you have to adjust any of them at all? Brooke Dickhart  09:18Absolutely. In fact, it was a very scary time for us as an organization that serves veterans, so many of the veterans that we work with come to us as direct referrals from the rec therapy department at the VA. So a lot of them are working through some mental illness and isolation is not a great thing for that population. And so we had to pivot immediately and figure out how to continue to serve them. And because one aspect of our classes is creating this sense of community, and connecting veterans and family members with their peers, we knew we needed to continue to bring that same feeling to these men and women, it's not just a class, we often say that art is just the vehicle. They do leave our classes learning an amazing skill. And they are taught by extremely, very well trained individuals. But we also mentor our instructors on military culture and how to create this feeling of community. And so we had to work very hard to continue to create that online. Of course, it's not a perfect match, but it has still been very effective and before the holidays, there was a group in fact, it was one of our writing classes got together and had a zoom holiday party, one class dressed up at Halloween. So we've really been able to still create this, this feeling of community even though we are online. Eoin Trainor  09:46And are veterans in the course, they're able to kind of share and talk about their writing and their experiences, correct? Brooke Dickhart  10:57Yes, they do love to share it's it's a very intimate group. Usually we have around five students give or take, you know, one or two more, it depends on you know, the day or the time, but they, they will always they have the option to share if they don't personally want to share the instructor will share for them but there is there is under no circumstance are they required to share. One thing that we are going to be doing very soon is now that things are starting to open up and we're able to get together in person again, we are planning to do a reading where the people who are in our class can meet in person, those who are local, and invite family members and friends and they will read their stories that they have written. Such a big part of it is being able to share in all of our classes, whether it's photography, or drawing or painting, they really take some pride in being able to share what they've created with their family members. Eoin Trainor  12:00Thanks for coming on. Brooke Dickhart  12:02Thank you, I really appreciate the opportunity. Elizabeth Esser  12:09I'm Elizabeth Esser with WKNC 88.1 Eye on the Triangle. Joining us today is renowned neurosurgeon, author and speaker Dr. Paul Kaloostian. Dr. Kaloostian is a Board Certified neurosurgeon and the author of numerous books, including the young neurosurgeon, lessons from my patients, from the eyes of a doctor, and my surgical cases told in poems. He's here today to discuss stress and how it affects the brain functions of college students. Dr. Kaloostian, thank you for joining us today on Eye on the Triangle to get us started. What exactly is stress? And what's going on in our brains when we experience it? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  12:49Yeah, that's so that's the that's the million dollar question. So stress is a essentially state of being where your brain and and body communicate in a certain specific way based on the hormones and neurotransmitters that are secreted at that time. And so we've all experienced it, we've all experienced stress, we all really know what what it is because we've we've been through it we experience on a daily basis. And certainly college students experience it, you know, because of everything they're going through in school and others. So but it's but it's really a process that is really regulated by the brain itself. There are specific areas that do that. And these areas secrete hormones and neurotransmitters through our bloodstream that then make our other areas of our body realize, hmm, something's not right, I should feel a certain way, which is stress. So that's what really happens during that stressful moment, or moments of our lives. Elizabeth Esser  14:07And can stress have lasting effects on our brains and bodies? And if so, what does that look like? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  14:14Absolutely. And once again, you know, similar to what I just said before, we've all experienced it. We've had moments where, let's say we're in a particular situation and  we've been in that situation before. So our minds go back to that prior time or times where we've been in that situation. And that makes us nervous and stressed. You know, for example, public speaking, let's say you've, you gave a talk once and something bad happened. I don't know. Maybe someone laughed  at you or you said a word wrong or whatever. And so the next time or next few times after that, you can always remember that particular event where you had a tough time right? So that the the memory center of the brain the hippocampus, We call it is super important in this whole stress response. And so there are permanent features because obviously years later we remember these episodes way back early on in the past. And and so the brain really remembers what had happened in the past so certainly there are permanent aspects to it and there are actually genetic components to it. So stress can affect your actual DNA, believe it or not through a variety of responses, but often through repeated experiences of stress over time. The common thing is, let's say someone you know, a young child, you know, witnesses domestic violence between the parents or some multiple arguments between parents or others. If that happens, often, what has been found is that there's genetic alterations, so that that particular child really, experiences stress a different way, if they see that particular episode. And it's based on all these neurotransmitters that are secreted that affect proteins that are expressed on our surfaces of ourselves. So certainly, there are permanent aspects in many, many ways, as I just mentioned. Elizabeth Esser  16:17And college students undergo a lot of stress for a multitude of reasons. are college aged people differently affected by stress compared to other age groups? And if so, in what ways? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  16:30Well, I think everyone experiences stress differently. And I don't know if I would break it down by age. And I don't know if there are any specific studies that do that. But I think the, the process of experiencing stress in handling stress is really a human trait, meaning, it probably isn't going to be very, very different among all of us, we probably all feel somewhat similar in, in different situations, and how we react to that particular stressor in our life. But certainly, you know, I've done a lot of schooling to become a neurosurgeon, I've been in school for a long, long time, and then training for a long, long time. That comes with a lot of difficult times. I mean, there are a lot of great times to but there's a lot of difficult times, that certainly are stressful. And I remember studying for finals, midterm exams, just all of that, I mean, I'm so thankful that's over. But that certainly was tough. But you know, I want also your audience to know that stress can also be very good, there's, there's good stress, there's kind of a mediocre, or a medium level of stress. And then there's toxic stress. So there's, there's really a variety of different types of stress in the body. And so and I would say that, it's actually a very healthy thing to have some stress in our lives, because it, it actually motivates us to do things we likely wouldn't do if we didn't have this little push, or this little heart rate increase, you know, to get us doing these things. But But I think, you know, college students, they experience, a significant amount of stress. And I think that, you know, most colleges, most universities, have environments where, where students are able to really tap into to look for help to look for methods of de stressing, I think that's very valuable in, in the university setting. Certainly, you know, the places I've went, those those things were present and very helpful. But, but I think most of us experience stress quite similarly. Elizabeth Esser  19:09So like everyone, college students have experienced many new situations in the last year due to COVID. You know, we've switched from in person classes to online learning. And students have been, have experienced isolation due to social distancing, among other things. How have these changes maybe affected stress levels or mental health as a whole in students Dr. Paul Kaloostian  19:38Significantly increased these these issues. I mean, and I see it in many of my patients, I would say, almost daily. I can't tell you how many patients I see that that tell me about all the difficult times that they're going through since COVID. And actually, I think we've, we've we've coined a new phrase post COVID stress disorder, kinda like a post traumatic stress disorder, but it's a post COVID stress disorder, it's really becoming the kind of the new theme now, among medical providers and psychologists. And, I mean, just as you can imagine, Elizabeth, I mean, just just picture, you know, losing someone close to you, and you're not able to go to the hospital to see them. And they're not doing well, and some may pass, you know, just just that situation alone. Imagine that, you know, let's say someone closest to you, you know, how do you handle that, you know, you're just hearing them on the phone, you know, and, you know, and that's the, that's just one situation, imagine other types of situations during  COVID, where people have lost their jobs that, you know, literally companies have fallen under, and people have been fired, literally fired, lost their jobs. I know many people where that's happened to, and, and they have no income, no income source, they have kids, they have grandkids, they have mortgages, etc. Imagine that stress. There's so many, so many different situations, with COVID, where people weren't prepared. And, and how can you be, you know, this is something out of the blue and, and it has really dramatically, unfortunately, affected people's lives in such a negative way. And, but like I said, I think this this disorder is really very important nowadays, you know, for all providers, and psychologists seeing patients, even nurses, others, you're going to see this, that's probably going to be be seen in many, many patients for many years to come. It's a very significant problem. And it just is difficult to to really deal with just given the acuity of COVID how it happened just so quickly, so suddenly. And, and just the psychological component to, to dealing with all of these stresses all at once, I think is is compounding The, the the difficulty of really treating, treating this. So I think it's it's very valuable to really understand what's going on in people's lives, especially as providers to really try and help them best where we can. Elizabeth Esser  22:46Right? Well, absolutely. We've all gone through this very traumatic experience. So I guess, going off of that, we're now at this point where we're sort of transitioning back into normal life, you know, students are returning back to campus this coming semester. Do you have any tips on how students can cope with stress as we make this transition? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  23:15Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are a lot of healthy ways to, to deal with with stress in your life. And I know there are a lot of studies identifying exercise as a very, very critical means of de stressing and, and I won't go into the specific mechanisms of why that that is so but but certainly, you can understand it through exercise, there's a better blood flow throughout the body, because the heart is not pumping stronger, and our muscles are all squeezing the blood back to the heart. And so there's more, there's more blood supply to important areas of our brain and heart and other parts of our body that that allow us to, to clear our minds to have that energy to think beyond the stress and to move forward towards solutions. So I think exercise is just so so invaluable. Sleeping is very critical. Most studies recommend probably about six hours of uninterrupted sleep a day. I think that is fair and valid. Sleep is essentially really the one of the only ways our body can recharge itself. And that's the way I think of sleep. I think of sleep as kind of like charging your phone or charging you know, whatever you need to charge. It's that means of recharging the system or rebooting the system. And during the course of it, a typical day for a college student and others that they can beat you down so to speak just with all the activities that occur both physically and psychologically, you get tired, you get beaten down, your brain is injured, your body's injured. And so that sleep is just so valuable for those six hours or so, to really help those areas of the brain and body just heal, so that it can then do the same thing the following day in a, in a safe way. So I think sleep is so critical. Obviously, counseling, there are and should be, at least at most universities, I'm sure North Carolina State that has methods of seeking help, psychologically, someone to just speak to perhaps a counselor or psychologist others. And I think that is great. I don't think there's any negative stigma attached to that, I think more people should do that. And, you know, we're all social beings, we all need communication needs social interaction. And so I think that's, that's crucial to be able to communicate with someone who's trained to, to help others deal with with tough situations, so that you can then, by speaking, work through those problems that have tangible solutions. I think those are some of the solutions that I would recommend. Elizabeth.  Elizabeth Esser  26:28Great. Thank you so much. And then I guess, finally, is there anything else that you'd like to add? Regarding the topic of stress and college students? what you're working on or anything else? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  26:40Well, you know, I am a writer. So I think writing, you know, would be a fantastic way of de stressing, it's one of the one of the reasons why I have kind of partook in, in, in writing is because it really enabled me to, to de stress. As you could imagine, I just see so many sick, sick patients, gunshot wounds to the head and assaults to the head and spine. And I have to fix this and, and after a while, after many, many 1000s of these cases, I needed to just have an outlet. So I think for me, poetry or in writing, were my methods of doing that. And it really was super helpful. So I would recommend that, you know, the students in college university. Right. And it could be anything could be short poems, like haikus, or it could be a memoir of what they've experienced in their life. I'm sure people would love to read about that. And I think through that, you can get these these emotions out of your system. And I think that'll help you be a little bit more calm and collected and able to tackle any of the next challenges that come your way. Elizabeth Esser  27:56Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Dr. Kaloostian. The work you do is so important, and it was truly a pleasure speaking with you.  Dr. Paul Kaloostian  28:03Pleasures all mine. Thank you. Eoin Trainor  28:09And that is it for this week's Eye on the Triangle. Thanks for tuning in. If you have any questions, comments, ideas, or like to get involved with the Eye on the Triangle team, shoot us an email at public affairs@wknc.org. We'd love to hear from you. Stay tuned for your regular programming. We'll see you next time.

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF EPISODEProvided by Otter.aiEoin Trainor  00:00The views and opinions expressed in Eye on the Triangle do not represent WKNC or the student media. Eoin Trainor  00:34Good evening Raleigh and welcome to this week's Eye on the Triangle an NC State student produced news show on WKNC 88.1 FM HD-1 Raleigh. I'm Eoin Trainor. On tonight's episode, you'll hear my interview with Brooke Dickhart, Brooke is the executive director of the Joel Fund Wake Forest nonprofit that serves veterans. The Joel Fund recently received a federal grant to implement one of its programs at Walter Reed Medical Center. We talked about that, the Joel funds mission and much more. Afterwards is Elizabeth Esser's interview with Dr. Paul Kaloostian, a neurosurgeon and author. Elizabeth talked to him about the effects of stress on college students cognitive functioning. But first you have a quick story from the North Carolina News Service enjoy. Nadia Ramlagan  01:15North Carolina is ramping up plans to lease offshore wind-energy areas to developers, as the Biden administration expresses support for those efforts. The green light comes one year before a decade-long Trump-era moratorium on offshore development is slated to go into effect – on July 1st of next year. Despite the pending moratorium, which includes wind-energy, Democratic Congresswoman Deborah Ross of Raleigh says the state is poised to be a leader in offshore power generation and manufacturing. Deborah Ross  01:43And, with a bipartisan effort in our delegation to seek the ability to harness the best offshore wind in the country – and associated research and technology that will go with it – it will benefit North Carolina for decades to come. Nadia Ramlagan  02:02Earlier this year, Ross sent a letter signed by a bipartisan group of North Carolina lawmakers urging the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management to hold lease sales for two of the state's existing wind-energy areas in federal waters off the coast of Wilmington. It's unlikely the Trump moratorium on offshore development would be overturned in such a divided Congress. But Jaime Simmons of the Southeastern Wind Coalition says the most recent move is a sign the Biden administration is willing to take prompt action before the moratorium begins. Jaime Simmons  02:32We're in a unique position here in North Carolina, because we already have what's called wind energy areas identified. It gives a signal to those manufacturers; it gives them the certainty that they need to start making those investments. Nadia Ramlagan  02:47Director of North Carolina Political Affairs for the Environmental Defense Fund David Kelly points out the state already has a reputation as a clean-energy leader and a hub for clean tech. David Kelly  02:58It's reassuring to know that our state's leaders in Congress recognize the opportunity that offshore wind, emerging as a industry in the United States, offers. And that they're taking action to make sure North Carolina is well-positioned to compete for wind-energy jobs. Nadia Ramlagan  03:13Offshore wind is expected to create a 70-billion-dollar supply chain and tens of thousands of new jobs in the United States by 2030. For North Carolina News Service, I'm Nadia Ramlagan. Eoin Trainor  03:31This is Eoin Trainer with WKNC 88.1's Eye on the Triangle and I'm here with Brooke Dickhart, the executive director of the Joel Fund fund, a veterans nonprofit based in Wake Forest. Brooke, welcome to the program.  Brooke Dickhart  03:41Thank you so much for having me.  Eoin Trainor  03:43To start, would you mind telling us a little bit about what the Joel Fund does? Brooke Dickhart  03:48Absolutely. So the Joel Fund helps connect veterans to their communities. We do this through three main programs, we have a resource connection where we will work one on one with veterans and their family members to connect them to the services that they're looking for. We have operation art, which is our art classes for veterans and their family members. And then operation furnish, which is a furniture program locally where we can find gently used donated items for veterans in need. Eoin Trainor  04:20And I've heard that you have a new program of expressive writing classes as part of Operation Art would you mind telling us a little bit about that? Brooke Dickhart  04:27Absolutely. So this program was something that I started in honor of my dad because I after he passed away I found sheets of yellow legal paper where he had tried to write his story and I figured if he had trouble doing it then others probably do also. And so we started working with a with an amazing local writer to develop a class we also worked with a couple of veterans from the Vietnam Veterans of America to develop this class and we launched it a little over a year ago. And it has been a very successful program for us. Eoin Trainor  05:07And how have the veterans and their families who have taken the course responded, did they find it helpful? Brooke Dickhart  05:13Absolutely. They even asked us to bring in a therapist for the class. So our classes, we often say that there it's community therapeutic arts, we're not offering art therapy, however, with writing that can trigger a lot of emotions and that sort of thing. And the veterans who helped us develop the curriculum, really wanted there to be a therapist, as the safety net in the class, so that if they were writing about their time in the service, that they could do it in a safe and secure environment. And so because of those things that we have in place, they have really loved the class and have been able to write freely and feel that they can do it safely. Eoin Trainor  05:59And you recently received grant support for the program, what does that enable you to do anything new?  Brooke Dickhart  06:05Yes, so we just recently, were selected from a national search to do a writing program at Walter Reed Medical Military or Military Medical Center out of Bethesda, Maryland, to bring our writing program to their employee wellness program. So we work with people who work in the hospital, some of them are veterans, they are all caregivers, because of the population that they serve. We've even had a couple active duty soldiers who called in from overseas, you know, the technology that we have with virtual, you know, conference calls, and that sort of thing has really been our silver lining story, because we can now reach more veterans and family members across the world because of this technology, it doesn't have to just be centered to our area. And that has enabled us to take our writing program and expand it and bring it to the people at Walter Reed, which is been amazing. Eoin Trainor  07:09Then what was the transition between Wake Forest and Walter Reed like? Was there any kind of new challenges that you encountered? Brooke Dickhart  07:16Oh, yes, for sure. It's a, it's a much different dynamic when you're offering a writing class for people who work together. And in the military, you know, there's a hierarchy hierarchy. So there's a lot of considerations that we did not anticipate that we've had to navigate but they have renewed our contract. And so we're working through all that with Walter Reed. And they're it's their program is called creative forces. Creative forces is art therapy that is offered, I think it's um, 10 sites across the country, on bases, and then at Walter Reed. And so we've been working with the with the folks at creative forces and Walter Reed to make sure that the program is just right for their for the students that we are getting from them. Eoin Trainor  08:06And then the instructor assigns writing prompts, what are these like? And can you give us some examples of what some of them have been? Brooke Dickhart  08:16So the the writing prompts vary every week, and every class and that is based on who's in the class, and you know, what's going on around us during the time. But one example that I can give you that was for this week was described in vivid language, someone you deeply cared for who served our country, and his, and who is no longer with us. So that was their writing prompt heading into Memorial Day weekend. Eoin Trainor  08:48And if you don't mind, telling viewers, what kind of stuff if you know, did some of the veterans write for that one? Brooke Dickhart  08:55That I haven't seen yet actually, they they will be working on it for Actually, today. They have class today. So I haven't seen the writing yet.  Eoin Trainor  09:05And, did COVID kind of create any unique mental health related challenges for the veterans in your programs? And did you have to adjust any of them at all? Brooke Dickhart  09:18Absolutely. In fact, it was a very scary time for us as an organization that serves veterans, so many of the veterans that we work with come to us as direct referrals from the rec therapy department at the VA. So a lot of them are working through some mental illness and isolation is not a great thing for that population. And so we had to pivot immediately and figure out how to continue to serve them. And because one aspect of our classes is creating this sense of community, and connecting veterans and family members with their peers, we knew we needed to continue to bring that same feeling to these men and women, it's not just a class, we often say that art is just the vehicle. They do leave our classes learning an amazing skill. And they are taught by extremely, very well trained individuals. But we also mentor our instructors on military culture and how to create this feeling of community. And so we had to work very hard to continue to create that online. Of course, it's not a perfect match, but it has still been very effective and before the holidays, there was a group in fact, it was one of our writing classes got together and had a zoom holiday party, one class dressed up at Halloween. So we've really been able to still create this, this feeling of community even though we are online. Eoin Trainor  09:46And are veterans in the course, they're able to kind of share and talk about their writing and their experiences, correct? Brooke Dickhart  10:57Yes, they do love to share it's it's a very intimate group. Usually we have around five students give or take, you know, one or two more, it depends on you know, the day or the time, but they, they will always they have the option to share if they don't personally want to share the instructor will share for them but there is there is under no circumstance are they required to share. One thing that we are going to be doing very soon is now that things are starting to open up and we're able to get together in person again, we are planning to do a reading where the people who are in our class can meet in person, those who are local, and invite family members and friends and they will read their stories that they have written. Such a big part of it is being able to share in all of our classes, whether it's photography, or drawing or painting, they really take some pride in being able to share what they've created with their family members. Eoin Trainor  12:00Thanks for coming on. Brooke Dickhart  12:02Thank you, I really appreciate the opportunity. Elizabeth Esser  12:09I'm Elizabeth Esser with WKNC 88.1 Eye on the Triangle. Joining us today is renowned neurosurgeon, author and speaker Dr. Paul Kaloostian. Dr. Kaloostian is a Board Certified neurosurgeon and the author of numerous books, including the young neurosurgeon, lessons from my patients, from the eyes of a doctor, and my surgical cases told in poems. He's here today to discuss stress and how it affects the brain functions of college students. Dr. Kaloostian, thank you for joining us today on Eye on the Triangle to get us started. What exactly is stress? And what's going on in our brains when we experience it? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  12:49Yeah, that's so that's the that's the million dollar question. So stress is a essentially state of being where your brain and and body communicate in a certain specific way based on the hormones and neurotransmitters that are secreted at that time. And so we've all experienced it, we've all experienced stress, we all really know what what it is because we've we've been through it we experience on a daily basis. And certainly college students experience it, you know, because of everything they're going through in school and others. So but it's but it's really a process that is really regulated by the brain itself. There are specific areas that do that. And these areas secrete hormones and neurotransmitters through our bloodstream that then make our other areas of our body realize, hmm, something's not right, I should feel a certain way, which is stress. So that's what really happens during that stressful moment, or moments of our lives. Elizabeth Esser  14:07And can stress have lasting effects on our brains and bodies? And if so, what does that look like? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  14:14Absolutely. And once again, you know, similar to what I just said before, we've all experienced it. We've had moments where, let's say we're in a particular situation and  we've been in that situation before. So our minds go back to that prior time or times where we've been in that situation. And that makes us nervous and stressed. You know, for example, public speaking, let's say you've, you gave a talk once and something bad happened. I don't know. Maybe someone laughed  at you or you said a word wrong or whatever. And so the next time or next few times after that, you can always remember that particular event where you had a tough time right? So that the the memory center of the brain the hippocampus, We call it is super important in this whole stress response. And so there are permanent features because obviously years later we remember these episodes way back early on in the past. And and so the brain really remembers what had happened in the past so certainly there are permanent aspects to it and there are actually genetic components to it. So stress can affect your actual DNA, believe it or not through a variety of responses, but often through repeated experiences of stress over time. The common thing is, let's say someone you know, a young child, you know, witnesses domestic violence between the parents or some multiple arguments between parents or others. If that happens, often, what has been found is that there's genetic alterations, so that that particular child really, experiences stress a different way, if they see that particular episode. And it's based on all these neurotransmitters that are secreted that affect proteins that are expressed on our surfaces of ourselves. So certainly, there are permanent aspects in many, many ways, as I just mentioned. Elizabeth Esser  16:17And college students undergo a lot of stress for a multitude of reasons. are college aged people differently affected by stress compared to other age groups? And if so, in what ways? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  16:30Well, I think everyone experiences stress differently. And I don't know if I would break it down by age. And I don't know if there are any specific studies that do that. But I think the, the process of experiencing stress in handling stress is really a human trait, meaning, it probably isn't going to be very, very different among all of us, we probably all feel somewhat similar in, in different situations, and how we react to that particular stressor in our life. But certainly, you know, I've done a lot of schooling to become a neurosurgeon, I've been in school for a long, long time, and then training for a long, long time. That comes with a lot of difficult times. I mean, there are a lot of great times to but there's a lot of difficult times, that certainly are stressful. And I remember studying for finals, midterm exams, just all of that, I mean, I'm so thankful that's over. But that certainly was tough. But you know, I want also your audience to know that stress can also be very good, there's, there's good stress, there's kind of a mediocre, or a medium level of stress. And then there's toxic stress. So there's, there's really a variety of different types of stress in the body. And so and I would say that, it's actually a very healthy thing to have some stress in our lives, because it, it actually motivates us to do things we likely wouldn't do if we didn't have this little push, or this little heart rate increase, you know, to get us doing these things. But But I think, you know, college students, they experience, a significant amount of stress. And I think that, you know, most colleges, most universities, have environments where, where students are able to really tap into to look for help to look for methods of de stressing, I think that's very valuable in, in the university setting. Certainly, you know, the places I've went, those those things were present and very helpful. But, but I think most of us experience stress quite similarly. Elizabeth Esser  19:09So like everyone, college students have experienced many new situations in the last year due to COVID. You know, we've switched from in person classes to online learning. And students have been, have experienced isolation due to social distancing, among other things. How have these changes maybe affected stress levels or mental health as a whole in students Dr. Paul Kaloostian  19:38Significantly increased these these issues. I mean, and I see it in many of my patients, I would say, almost daily. I can't tell you how many patients I see that that tell me about all the difficult times that they're going through since COVID. And actually, I think we've, we've we've coined a new phrase post COVID stress disorder, kinda like a post traumatic stress disorder, but it's a post COVID stress disorder, it's really becoming the kind of the new theme now, among medical providers and psychologists. And, I mean, just as you can imagine, Elizabeth, I mean, just just picture, you know, losing someone close to you, and you're not able to go to the hospital to see them. And they're not doing well, and some may pass, you know, just just that situation alone. Imagine that, you know, let's say someone closest to you, you know, how do you handle that, you know, you're just hearing them on the phone, you know, and, you know, and that's the, that's just one situation, imagine other types of situations during  COVID, where people have lost their jobs that, you know, literally companies have fallen under, and people have been fired, literally fired, lost their jobs. I know many people where that's happened to, and, and they have no income, no income source, they have kids, they have grandkids, they have mortgages, etc. Imagine that stress. There's so many, so many different situations, with COVID, where people weren't prepared. And, and how can you be, you know, this is something out of the blue and, and it has really dramatically, unfortunately, affected people's lives in such a negative way. And, but like I said, I think this this disorder is really very important nowadays, you know, for all providers, and psychologists seeing patients, even nurses, others, you're going to see this, that's probably going to be be seen in many, many patients for many years to come. It's a very significant problem. And it just is difficult to to really deal with just given the acuity of COVID how it happened just so quickly, so suddenly. And, and just the psychological component to, to dealing with all of these stresses all at once, I think is is compounding The, the the difficulty of really treating, treating this. So I think it's it's very valuable to really understand what's going on in people's lives, especially as providers to really try and help them best where we can. Elizabeth Esser  22:46Right? Well, absolutely. We've all gone through this very traumatic experience. So I guess, going off of that, we're now at this point where we're sort of transitioning back into normal life, you know, students are returning back to campus this coming semester. Do you have any tips on how students can cope with stress as we make this transition? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  23:15Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are a lot of healthy ways to, to deal with with stress in your life. And I know there are a lot of studies identifying exercise as a very, very critical means of de stressing and, and I won't go into the specific mechanisms of why that that is so but but certainly, you can understand it through exercise, there's a better blood flow throughout the body, because the heart is not pumping stronger, and our muscles are all squeezing the blood back to the heart. And so there's more, there's more blood supply to important areas of our brain and heart and other parts of our body that that allow us to, to clear our minds to have that energy to think beyond the stress and to move forward towards solutions. So I think exercise is just so so invaluable. Sleeping is very critical. Most studies recommend probably about six hours of uninterrupted sleep a day. I think that is fair and valid. Sleep is essentially really the one of the only ways our body can recharge itself. And that's the way I think of sleep. I think of sleep as kind of like charging your phone or charging you know, whatever you need to charge. It's that means of recharging the system or rebooting the system. And during the course of it, a typical day for a college student and others that they can beat you down so to speak just with all the activities that occur both physically and psychologically, you get tired, you get beaten down, your brain is injured, your body's injured. And so that sleep is just so valuable for those six hours or so, to really help those areas of the brain and body just heal, so that it can then do the same thing the following day in a, in a safe way. So I think sleep is so critical. Obviously, counseling, there are and should be, at least at most universities, I'm sure North Carolina State that has methods of seeking help, psychologically, someone to just speak to perhaps a counselor or psychologist others. And I think that is great. I don't think there's any negative stigma attached to that, I think more people should do that. And, you know, we're all social beings, we all need communication needs social interaction. And so I think that's, that's crucial to be able to communicate with someone who's trained to, to help others deal with with tough situations, so that you can then, by speaking, work through those problems that have tangible solutions. I think those are some of the solutions that I would recommend. Elizabeth.  Elizabeth Esser  26:28Great. Thank you so much. And then I guess, finally, is there anything else that you'd like to add? Regarding the topic of stress and college students? what you're working on or anything else? Dr. Paul Kaloostian  26:40Well, you know, I am a writer. So I think writing, you know, would be a fantastic way of de stressing, it's one of the one of the reasons why I have kind of partook in, in, in writing is because it really enabled me to, to de stress. As you could imagine, I just see so many sick, sick patients, gunshot wounds to the head and assaults to the head and spine. And I have to fix this and, and after a while, after many, many 1000s of these cases, I needed to just have an outlet. So I think for me, poetry or in writing, were my methods of doing that. And it really was super helpful. So I would recommend that, you know, the students in college university. Right. And it could be anything could be short poems, like haikus, or it could be a memoir of what they've experienced in their life. I'm sure people would love to read about that. And I think through that, you can get these these emotions out of your system. And I think that'll help you be a little bit more calm and collected and able to tackle any of the next challenges that come your way. Elizabeth Esser  27:56Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Dr. Kaloostian. The work you do is so important, and it was truly a pleasure speaking with you.  Dr. Paul Kaloostian  28:03Pleasures all mine. Thank you. Eoin Trainor  28:09And that is it for this week's Eye on the Triangle. Thanks for tuning in. If you have any questions, comments, ideas, or like to get involved with the Eye on the Triangle team, shoot us an email at public affairs@wknc.org. We'd love to hear from you. Stay tuned for your regular programming. We'll see you next time.

Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear. We use Oh Dear to keep track of SSL certificates. If an SSL certificate is about to expire, we get an alert beforehand. We have automated processes to renew them, so we use Oh Dear as an extra level of peace of mind. You can sign up for a ten day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Michele Hansen  00:28Hey, welcome back to Software Social. So today we're doing something kind of fun. We're leaning on the social part of Software Social, and we have invited our friend, Sean Fioritto, to join us today.Sean Fioritto  00:44Hey guys. Thanks for having me.  Colleen Schnettler  00:47Hi Sean. Thanks for being here. Michele Hansen  00:48So, and the reason why we asked Sean, in addition to being a great person, is that Sean wrote a book called Sketching With CSS, and as you all know, I am writing a book and figuring it out. And there is a lot of stuff I haven't figured out, especially when it comes to, like, actually selling the book. Like, I feel like that, I feel like the, writing the book is, like, I feel like I kind of got a handle on that. The whole selling the book thing, like, not so much. Um, so we thought it would be kind of helpful to have Sean come on, since like, he's done this successfully. Colleen Schnettler  021:36So Sean, I would love to start with a little bit of your background with the book. What inspired you to write it? How did you get started? Where did that idea come from?  Sean Fioritto  01:50Yeah, so I wanted to quit my job.  Colleen Schnettler  01:53Don't we all? Michele Hansen  01:55Honest goal. Sean Fioritto  01:56I always wanted to go on my own, be independent, run my own business. That's been a goal for a very long time. So, I tried various things, you know, in my spare time, with limited to no success for years and years before that, and I was just getting sick of, the plan was, you know, I'm like, okay, I have this job. And in my spare time, I'm gonna get something going and then, and that just wasn't working. So I was getting impatient. Anyway, I ended up signing up with Amy Hoy's 30x500 class. This was seven or eight years ago. So, I signed up for that class. Actually, wait, I'm getting my timeline a little mixed up. So, I started reading stuff by Amy Hoy. It's funny, I'd actually bought another book that she wrote, and she used her sort of process for that book. And I bought that for my, for my job earlier. And I was like, oh, this Amy Hoy person is interesting. And so I started reading her blog, and then she has these things she writes called ebombs. You guys are probably familiar with that term. But they're basically content that, it's educational content directed at her target, you know, customer, which she would call her audience. So I was just, she, at that point, she had started 30x500. I think it was actually called a Year of Hustle at that point. And so she had all this content, and I was just devouring it, because I was like, she gets me. She knows my problem, and this is awesome. So I was just reading everything that she could write, that she wrote, and, you know, finding any resource that she'd ever written about, like, what's her process, because she was talking about this mysterious process that she has, she, she would talk about it. And I was able to sort of reverse engineer part of her course, the main thing called Sales Safari. So I'm not, I'm at my job, coasting, doing a half-assed job, spending a lot of time doing Sales Safari, trying to figure out what, what product I should do. Not product, but that's not the way to think about it with Sales Safari, but trying to figure out like, what, who, what audience should I focus on? And what problems do they have, and what's the juiciest problem that makes sense for me to tackle? And then, and she would call them pains, by the way, not, not problems. So what's the juiciest pain that they have, for me, that was like, be the easiest for me to peel off, and, and work on. So I started digging, and it was like, alright, well, what audience makes sense for me? This is kind of the process, and it was like, you know, like web designers, web developers, because I was a web developer. And so like, what are the, you know, audiences that are close to audiences that I'm in is kind of ideal. So I started there, and then I just read and read and read. I probably put like, 80 hours of research time into that process.  Colleen Schnettler  05:05Wow. Michele Hansen  05:06That's a lot. Sean Fioritto  05:06Of just reading and reading and reading and reading, and taking notes. And really understanding and whittling down and figuring out my audience, and figuring out, so the thinking, the benefit of that amount of time spent deliberately going through a process like that is that at some point, I became so in-tune with the audience that I could identify, and this is gonna pay off for you, Michele, this, this little story, because this feeds into like, how do you sell it. At some point, it meant that I could tell when a thing that I was, like a piece of content marketing that I was working on, was going to resonate very strongly with my audience and be worth the effort, if that makes sense. And it didn't really take much. Like, after I got done with that much amount of research, it was sort of, like, pretty trivial for me to come up with ideas for content that I could write that I knew people were gonna just eat up. And so that's, that's how I started building my, building my mailing list. And then that's how I eventually, Colleen, to your question, I came up with Sketching With CSS, which it was a solution to a pain point that I'd identified in my audience, which at that point was web designers. Colleen Schnettler  06:37How big did your mailing list grow? Sean Fioritto  06:39I have 20,000 people on my mail list. Colleen Schnettler  06:4120,000? Michele Hansen  06:42Holy guacamole.  Sean Fioritto  06:46Yeah. So like I said, I got really good. No, no, no. Michele Hansen  06:51I've got like, 200 people on my mailing list, or like, 220. And like, for context, that's like, 200 more people than I ever expected to have on the mailing list, and hearing, like, 20,000 feels very far from, from 200. Sean Fioritto  07:10Yeah, well, let me say something that will hopefully be more reassuring. The, Amy and Alex, for example, they've been running 30x500, for years, and I think their mailing list is just now approximating, like 20,000 or so. And like, the, they have been making so much money with that course with a significantly smaller mailing list. And that's a really, like, high value product, too. So anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I really think they only have like, a couple 1000 people on their mailing list for a long time. And then, for me, I launched pre-sales of my book, at that point, my, I think I only had, boy, I used to, I used to have this memorized. But like, it's been so long now. But I think I only had like, it was less than 2000 I think. I think. So, and even then, I don't think you need that. I know people that have launched with much smaller lists than that, and, and it was fine. Because the people that are on your list now guarantee it, your, will be very interested in, in buying the book. You know, that'd be like a low, low barrier to entry, assuming like, your mailing list is one of the ways that you're thinking of selling the book. Michele Hansen  08:26Yeah, I guess. That's not a good answer. But like, I, I, I actually, I admit, I'm a little bit like, wary to kind of hit it too hard. Like, I would probably send out like, like, if I did a pre-sale, which I guess I should. Actually, I had someone a couple days ago, who has been reading the drafts, who actually I think is also a 30x500 student in the past, say that they wanted to, like, pre-buy the book and asked me how to do it. And I was like, that's a great question. I will figure that out. And like, so maybe do that, and then maybe one more when, like, the book comes out? Um, yeah, cuz, so I've been thinking about the newsletter as a way to draft the book because I find writing an email to be a lot easier than, like, staring at a blank cursor just, you know, blinking at me. And I guess I haven't really, like, and like, people signed up for it to read the draft of the book, so I guess I almost feel bad like, using it for sales too much. Like you know, I want to let people know that the book exists, but like, I don't want to. I don't know, does that. Sean Fioritto  09:45So, it's very considerate of you to think about that. Michele Hansen  09:52Another way of saying that another, also a way to not make any money off of this. Sean Fioritto  09:57Well, yeah, that, but also, it's kind of inconsiderate of you to not be thinking about all the people that really, really, really want to buy it and also would like to read anything that you're writing right now. Like, you're just completely leaving them out there to dry. And there are definitely people like that on your mailing list. So, they're like, there's like, some people on your mailing list are not going to be interested in your content if you're sending it too much, or, or just in general, really lightly interested in what you're writing about, or mistakenly signed up for your mailing list, which at this point, you probably don't have that problem. So like, to some extent, that's always the case, and it used to bother me a lot. I would send an email, and sales emails especially would result in bigger unsubscribes after every email, because you know, your little email tool tells you like, can, you know, so nice of it to tell you like, this many people unsubscribed after you sent this email. And it's always a big jump after like, a sales email. That used to bother me a lot. But then I started, kind of watching even my own behavior, and you probably do the same, and you probably like, look forward to some emails from some people that hit your inbox from some newsletters that you're looking forward to, and you'd very much like them to send you more. And then there's other people where you're like, well, I signed up for that, like, a couple years ago, and I just am not thinking about that anymore. And I need, like, to like, whittle down my content. So you unsubscribe. So then you become that unsubscribe number on the other end of the person sending the email, but like, you weren't annoyed, you didn't mind. It was just like, time to move on. And that's usually the case. So I think people can just unsubscribe as long as it's easy. I would literally put it at the top of my emails. So like, because I would send emails very infrequently. I was not disciplined about that. And I still don't think that that's a problem. But the, but because I sent them infrequently I put at the top like, hey, you know, you signed up for this, because you probably read this thing I wrote. You weren't interested in the book, whatever, if this is not for you anymore, just unsubscribe, like, first thing. So that always made me feel better about sending emails. And also, I don't know, I think that's the right thing to do so people just know, like upfront, that you know, oh, okay, there's the easy to find unsubscribe button when they're done. And then that's fine. Michele Hansen  12:26We did that for Geocodio once, like, I want to say it was like a year or two ago, and our lists had been like, super disorganized. And like I think we had, we were sending stuff like, we send like one or two marketing emails a year from MailChimp. And then we also had Intercom, and those things didn't sync up. And so like, sometimes people would unsubscribe in intercom and then like, not be unsubscribed in MailChimp, or like vice versa. And then, since we didn't send a lot of email, we used MailChimp's pay as you go. And then they just like, shut down their page and go option a couple of years ago, even though we had a ton of credit, which was a little annoying. And, and then, so like, the next time, and I think we migrated over to Mailcoach. And so the next time we send out an email, we actually like for some reason, we were like, there's probably a lot of people on this who have meant to unsubscribe. And so at the very top of the next email, we put an unsubscribe link and we also put a link to delete their account. And like, a bunch of people did it, but then our number of people who were unsubscribing later on like, went like, way down. So it was like, ripping off the band aid basically. Sean Fioritto  13:36Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think like, I don't know, when people unsubscribe from Geocodio, at this point, it doesn't like, break your heart anymore, I'm guessing. Right?  Michele Hansen  13:45No, I mean, we're like, we're kind of like jumping into something that has been very much on my mind, but I hadn't been wanting to admit that it was there and just trying to like, pretend that it's not there, which is all the dealing with rejection around either, you know, people being mad that they were being sold to or negative reviews. And I like, you know, it sounds like you kind of have a process for, like, accepting those feelings.  Sean Fioritto  14:19It used to bother me a lot.  Michele Hansen  14:22Like, yeah. Sean Fioritto  14:24Yeah, it used to bother me a lot. There are two things that I hated. I hated frontpage Hacker News, and I hated getting angry emails.  Michele Hansen  14:33Oh.  Sean Fioritto  14:35I also got creepy, tons of creepy emails. Once you get, like, past a certain threshold and the number of subscribers you have, the creepiness factor increases. Yeah. Yeah. But the, but I got used to all of that. I just realized, like, there's just some percentage of people that are just angry right now or whatever, like, whatever they're going through. And I know that, like, I am very carefully crafting things such that the most, most of my content is not self-serving, most of it is directly a result of research that tells me that this is a problem that people are having, and now I'm helping you. So I'm like, I never feel bad about those, and then even the sales emails, I started to not feel bad about those, too, because I'm like, this is also a thing that's helping you. But that took a while to get to. I mean, honestly, it did. And it got worse when it became my only source of income, which added extra, extra feelings. But yeah, there's a lot of feelings to like, get through. And now I have just developed more of a thick skin, you know. Like, I'm not terrified of having a super popular article anymore, or, you know, stuff like that. That doesn't, that doesn't bother me anymore. I think it just came with time, just like with you and Geocodio. I mean, I'm sure you are used to like, some fluctuations of revenue, which probably bothered you a lot at the beginning, but now, not so much. I mean, I'm just, I'm guessing, but that seems, you know, I'm sure there's some things they're that you've got a thick skin about now. Michele Hansen  16:12Oh, my gosh. I mean, for years, every time a plan downgrade came through, like every time it was like a punch in the gut. Like, and yeah, I think now that I, I guess I trust the revenue more, I'm not as impacted by it. It's more like, oh, I wonder, like, why that was. Like, did their project end, or like, you know, like, what happened? But yeah, in the beginning, especially when it was first our like, when it, when it became my, like, full time income. I mean, as, as you said, like, that is really painful. Like, I'm curious, like, so you,  so like, when did you start writing the book? Sean Fioritto  1705Let me think, like, like the year, or a timing, like, in terms of the timeline?  Michele Hansen  17:12Whichever one you want to go with.  Sean Fioritto  17:15Yeah, I can't remember the year cuz it was a while ago. It was like, eight years ago.  Michele Hansen  17:19Oh, wow. Okay. So you started, Sean Fioritto  17:22I think it was 2013 is when I started. Yeah. Michele Hansen  17:24You did the, sounds like you did 30x500 first, right? Sean Fioritto  17:30Yeah, I had the, I had started writing the book before 30x500. But like I said, I was ,I was following her process already at sort of reverse engineered it. And then I felt like I just owed her the money for the, for the course. So, plus I wanted to meet her, so. Michele Hansen  17:44Yeah, so you started like, the research process basically, like, like 30x500 like, was only one part of your, like, research. Like, cuz you said you had sort of, you had figured out what her process was based on the blog posts and whatnot before you took the course. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  18:00Yeah.  Michele Hansen  18:01Okay. Sean Fioritto  18:02Yeah, and at that point, I had already generated the research I needed to see, to choose Sketching With CSS as a, as a product. I pretty much had, I think I had a landing page. I hadn't done pre-sales yet, but I was, I was gearing up for that. Michele Hansen  18:17You are so organized. Colleen Schnettler  18:19Michele, do you have a landing page?  Michele Hansen  18:22There is a website.  Colleen Schnettler  18:24Okay, I didn't know. Michele Hansen  18:26I haven't told anyone about it because I talk about,  Colleen Schnettler  18:29Your secret website. Michele Hansen  18:30I actually have two. I thought of the domain name, or like, the name for it in the shower, and then I like, immediately like, ran for the computer to see if it was available. And I actually bought two, and then I think we put, like, a book, oh my god, I just typed it wrong. Colleen Schnettler  18:55This is the part where you tell us what it is.  Michele Hansen  18:57There's nothing on it, and actually, if I say it now then we have to have something on it by, Colleen Schnettler  19:01Well, there's no way to pressurize a situation than to tell us right now. Michele Hansen  19:06So okay, it is DeployEmpathy.com. Okay, okay, crap, now I have it out. I don't even know how I'm going to sell it. Okay. So um, and I think I have another one, too. But yeah, we have like, a very basic like, WordPress template on it. Like, it's not, it's not, okay. While I was trying to figure it, so like, people keep asking me like, oh, like, when's your book coming out? And I'm like, I have no idea. I have never done this before. I don't know what steps are ahead of me. So, okay, so you started writing the book while you were doing research concurrently, and then how, and you were also, Sean Fioritto  19:48Oh, sorry, there's two types of research.  Michele Hansen  19:50Okay. Sean Fioritto  19:51So, we could clarify that. There was my audience research and understanding the pain that I was solving, and then there's the research about the book. I didn't have to do as much research about the book. I mean, I already, like, the type of book I ended up writing, I already had, you know, the expertise I needed to write that book. So yeah, I was, audience research was already done by the time I was writing Sketching With CSS. So I wasn't doing research like that while writing the book. Michele Hansen  20:16Okay. And then you also had the landing page up, and you started building your list while you were doing this research and writing phase. Okay, so how long did it take you from, like, the time that you had the idea for the book to when people could, like, buy and download the book, like, just like, the big picture? Like, how long did that process take you? Sean Fioritto  20:45Well, I mean, keep in mind, that ton of the work was while I was still full time working, in theory. Michele Hansen  20:56I mean, I guess I am, too, right? Like, this is not my full time thing. Sean Fioritto  21:00Yeah, but I think like, from, from, from research to launch, like, book is done, it was like, in the four to six month range. Michele Hansen  21:14Okay. Okay. So I think I started at like, the end of February with the newsletter, and it's May, so that's like, yeah. I do feel like I'm doing a little bit of, I think what we have termed Colleen does, of putzing in the code garden, rather than selling things or doing marketing or whatnot. And I am totally doing that with my manuscript, I guess you could call it. Sounds so fancy. And just like, moving commas around and like, totally procrastinating on making images for it, like totally, totally procrastinating on that. Okay, so it took you like, four to six months to get to that point.  Sean Fioritto  21:59Yeah, there was a, there was a launch in between there. Michele Hansen  22:02So when was the like, so was your pre-sale your launch? Or like, how does that work?  Sean Fioritto  22:08You could do lots of launches.  Michele Hansen  22:11This is like, the part that is like, just sort of like, you know, in my head, it's like step one, write book, like, step two of question, question question, and step three, profit. Like that's sort of where I am right now. Sean Fioritto  22:24I feel like you're already doing most of the things that I would do. The, the one thing, so alright. So you're, you're working in public, so you're getting interest via Twitter. You're writing to your mailing list. You're doing the right thing, which is writing content for your book that, you know, is also useful to your mailing list, like, independently. Like, like getting double bang for your buck is smart when you're doing this kind of business. So you're keeping your list warm enough. People are, you're building anticipation, people are telling you you're building anticipation, because they're like, hey, when do I get to buy this book? So, you know, you're basically doing all the things. As, you know, from from my perspective, looking in, it seems like you're just accidentally or intuitively doing the right, doing the right stuff. The thing that's missing between like, what you are doing and what I did is probably, I would press pause on book writing and do specific content marketing things just to build my mailing list. Michele Hansen  23:37But I love putzing in the code garden.  Sean Fioritto  23:39And I'm not, I'm not, sorry, I didn't mean to say that as like, you should do that. That's what I would, as in like, I was doing that. And I don't know, Michele Hansen  23:48And you wrote, like, a successful book and sold it, and it was your full time job for a period of time. So you're kind of here because you're good at this and because I need to be told these things. Sean Fioritto  23:59Right. Well, I'm just saying what I did. But it's, it's really ultimately you get to pick and choose what you do. The, you know, I actually happen to very much enjoy the process of coming up with content that I knew would be popular and writing it and sharing it everywhere and doing all that stuff. And also, I knew I needed to because I was going to try and make this my full time living, so I'm like, I need more people on my mailing list. So that was pretty important to me based on the goals I was trying to achieve. The, the other thing is though, like, even with a small mailing list, your book as the, a lot of book sales are gonna come from word of mouth. Like, I sort of forced the book onto the scene. But like, it's not a, the Sketching With CSS is not like a, while the marketing theme is, like, the marketing message at the time, it doesn't connect anymore because  the world has moved on from that phase of web development. But like, while people could read the marketing, the landing page and connect really strongly, and, you know, be interested in the book, the book didn't really lend itself well to word of mouth, because it's not like, it was not like a, oh, you should read this, like, it's this lightweight, like reading recommendation. It's got to be, you've got to be like, ready to commit to learning a bunch of code. So it's like, there's like, a smaller group of people at any given time that are like, at that point, does that make sense? Versus your book, it's, it seems like, it's like a higher level of value, like, it's a more abstract, then like, here are the, learn this code. Here's how to type in Git commands, here's how to do that. You know, like, I was really like, down at the, like, here's what you're gonna be doing day to day in your job. And you're giving them the same message, but like, in a way that can be, that is at like, a higher level, it's maybe easier to read, you know, in your spare time. It's like a business book, has the same qualities of, like, successful business books. So, I think that you may not have to do any of the content marketing stuff that I was doing is what I'm getting at, because, like, I can already tell, I'm ready to read your book, and I'm ready to recommend it to people, because it does it solve, like, a question that people have all the time, and a problem people have, and they're like, oh, I wish I knew how to, you know, talk to my customers more effectively, or understand, you know, the types of customers that are gonna be interested my products, or what problems they're having, etc, etc, right? Customer research, that kind of thing. That is a topic of conversation that comes up a lot in my communities that I hang out in, and so, you know, your book’s gonna be like, at-hand for me to recommend. That's, that's what I suspect. That's my, that's my theory for your book. Michele Hansen  27:00Yeah, I guess, I mean, there's parts of it, definitely.  Sean Fioritto  27:02It's also got a catchy name.  Michele Hansen  27:04Hey, I thought of it in the shower, and then I ran to register the domain, which is exactly what you are supposed to do when you have a good idea for something right? Like, this is the process. Colleen Schnettler  27:13Definitely. Michele Hansen  27:13Like,  Sean Fioritto  27:14You already had a book though, so it's different. You're like, I'm gonna write this book called Deploying Empathy. And you already, like, wrote it. So I think you're good to go. Michele Hansen  27:20Yeah, actually I didn't have a name for a while. Okay, so, so something else I have, like, a question on, which you kind of just sort of touched on with that about, like, super practical elements. So some, some of it is you can, you can definitely sit down and, and you could probably read it in a sitting or two. But then there's, there's the stuff that's more like a toolbox with all of the different scripts, which, by the way earlier, when you were saying like finding the type of content that people are really hungry for like, that, like, those scripts are the thing that people are the most excited about. The problem is, there's only like, so many sort of general scenarios. So I've basically written the main ones, but, so something I noticed with your site, which is SketchingWithCSS.com, just for everybody's reference, so you have the book plus code, which is like, your basic option for $39. And then you have one with the video package for 99. And then you have another one with more stuff for 249. And then there's one with like, all the things for your team for 499. And so, something that people have asked me for is like, like, there's the book piece, and then there's also, people want to be able to easily replicate the scripts so that they can then like, use them to build their own scripts off of it, and like, modify them and whatnot. So people have said, like, well, that could be like a Notion Template, like, bundle that it's sold with, or Google Docs or, or whatever. And so I've been like, kind of like, how do you sell the book with this like, other bundle? And like, can you also do that, like if you sell like a physical book to like, if I did it through Amazon, like, could I also sell a Notion Template bundle or something? Like, I just, I'm kind of, that sort of like, something that's on my mind is like, I'm not really sure how to approach that. And I'm wondering if you could kind of like, talk through your approach to creating like, different tiers, and what you provided at those different tears.  Sean Fioritto  29:33Mm hmm. Right. So, at the time, I know, I have a more sophisticated thought process about it now, but the, when I did the initial set of tiers, it was because Nathan Barry told me that I should have three tears because it tripled his revenue. So I was like, oh, okay.  Michele Hansen  29:53I mean, that's a good reason.  Sean Fioritto  29:55Like, we just happened to be at the bacon biz. That was the other person that I was, I bought his book. So here's the thing I always do, I would buy people's books that way I could email them. Michele Hansen  30:08Is that a thing? Like, if you buy someone's book, like, do you have a license to email them? Sean Fioritto  30:13Well, you get one. You get one email. And as long as it's, you know, not creepy. That's, that's the main thing. But yeah. So we had a bake in this conference in real life, and then, yeah, that's what he, that's what, he told me that I was like, oh, yeah. Okay. I think Patrick McKenzie was there, too, and he said something similar. So I was like, oh, because they did a landing page tear down for me at that conference. That's right.  Michele Hansen  30:36Wow. Nice. Sean Fioritto  30:37Yeah. So anyway, so I did the, I did that, because somebody told me to. And in fact, it's true. Like, if I hadn't done that, you could just see like, the way the purchases ended up that like, that absolutely almost tripled my revenue. So,  Michele Hansen  30:53Oh, wow. Yeah. Sean Fioritto  30:54Which is a big deal for books, because it's not like, yeah, anyway. The, the, the way, the way you were talking about it, though, because there's another way to think about it. I was thinking about in tiers with the book, but another way to think about it is in terms of a product funnel. So your, your book could be super cheap, and it is the entry point into your product, your little product universe. Because like, you're, what you're doing is naturally, because you're literally writing a book about this, listening to your customers and understanding that they have other like, you're really understanding what their, their pain is, and you see that there's different ways that you could solve it for them, right? Those things as a product. So you could bundle that stuff into your book, you could create tiers, like I did. And maybe it does make sense, we talk about this more, but like there's, there's, there's different ways to do tiers with books that, that makes sense, that aren't exactly what I did. But also, like what you're describing is basically different courses. So let's, so, like, people that run these info product businesses, like, what you end up with is like, you've got this world of courses, and you've got this world of content. And people come in from like, search, you know, or whatever channel that you've worked on, usually it's like an SEO channel, like through your content. And then they enter your automated marketing system. And then the first thing they do is buy probably your cheapest thing, your book, and then you're moving them on to the next level into your email marketing system to get them to start looking at, you know, your course, which is like a more in-depth version of the book, or whatever. So anyway, I'm just sort of sketching out, like how, how these content marketing businesses tend to work. So you kind of end up in their little universe and then you just get bounced around all their various email automation. If you've been in anybody's like, any internet famous person's little, like, email world, you'd probably notice eventually, if you're there for long enough, like, I already got that email. And so anyway, so let's there's like a different way of looking at it. You don't have to do tiers. You could just sell your book, you know, digital version, here's the hardback version, you make it cheap, and then, you know, lots of people, lots of people read it. And then you, turns out that this is still really interesting to you, you still like solving people's problems and you're like, you know what, like, I should release like, some recordings of customer interviews as like, examples or whatever, you know, and then you peel that off into a different product and you sell that, and slowly you build up this machine, basically. Also the guy to talk to would be Keith Perhac, who's in our group, too. Michele Hansen  33:51Oh, yeah, I should totally talk to Keith.  Colleen Schnettler  33:53Did he write a book? Sean Fioritto  33:55Yeah, he did but also his, his job before running SegMetrics was with the internet famous person that you guys know of that ran these huge content marketing programs and had this whole product funnel thing and all this stuff that I was talking about. So Keith is like, expert on that topic. Michele Hansen  34:15I guess I don't know if I want to go that direction just now because I do, you know, I do have a job. Um, so I'm, yeah.  Sean Fioritto  34:28You could just be like Amy.  Michele Hansen  34:33So, I, yeah, so I guess I have to think about that, and thinking about like, like, where to price it and those bundles and whatnot. Actually, I have another super like, mechanical question. So, between the time you announced the pre-order, and when you, like, people could actually like, to like, first of all, like, what was the incentive for somebody to pre-order? And then, what was the time from like, when you announced the pre-order to when you like, people could actually get it? Like, how far in advance do you do a pre-order? And what do you like, do you have to give people something? Sean Fioritto  35:10Yeah, I can't, I actually can't remember. I can't remember, what did I do? I did a pre-order. I can't even remember if I gave him the book or not. I don't think you have to. Some people just buy it ready to go. I think I, I probably did give ‘em like, here's everything I got so far, and it's gonna change, but, you know, here's that. Here's what I've got. And, you know, whatever version, like, people don't care if it's like, not even formatted or, you know, give me everything you got. Because the people that are going to do that are ready to just devour it. And then also, some of them might be like, I'm not wanting to, I don't want it right now, but I had a discount, right? So there's like, the pre-order, it's like a little bit cheaper to buy it now. Because I knew I was going to be selling it at like, as, like, a $40 product. So the discount, I think I sold it initially for pre-orders for like, 29 bucks, or maybe less even. Yeah, maybe like 20 bucks or something like that. Michele Hansen  36:08Okay, and it's 30 now. Colleen Schnettler  36:11Yeah, it probably makes sense for you, as someone who, I'm using it and referencing it, even though it's not done, because those scripts, like you were saying, are so valuable to people.  Michele Hansen  36:20Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess I sort of like, feel like everybody already has everything. I mean, reality like, they, they don't because everything has been changed so much. But I guess I need to like, set it up, too. Like, I need to decide on a platform to use to actually sell it.  Sean Fioritto  36:42Oh, I didn't do that at first.  Michele Hansen  36:45Okay. So did you just use Stripe? Sean Fioritto  36:47I think I used PayPal. I was literally like, here's my email, send PayPal money there. And then I sent it to ‘em. Michele Hansen  36:55How did you deal with that and sales tax and stuff?  Sean Fioritto  36:57I don't think that existed. But also I would have just ignored it. Michele Hansen  37:03Okay, yeah, I guess I'm in the EU, so I kind of can't. Sean Fioritto  37:08It's the wild west out here. Michele Hansen  37:12'Murica. Sean Fioritto  37:15No, I had a really bad tax bill the first year because I ignored all of that stuff.  Michele Hansen  37:19Oh, okay, so you're not advising. This is not financial advice.  Sean Fioritto  37:26I'm just saying what I did. I'm not saying you should do that.  Michele Hansen  37:30This may or may not be good advice, what you are hearing, just so you know. All of this may be bad advice. Okay, so I basically, Sean Fioritto  37:39I got audited, too, actually. I forgot about that. So don't, yeah, definitely don't do that. Being audited is not as bad as it sounds, it turns out but that's, anyway, that's a different story. Michele Hansen  38:55I was, I feel like I should do a, like a talk hear, hear, and be like, well, on that massive disappointment, thank you and good evening. Um, so okay. So you know, I feel, see, I feel like I look at you and you're like, you, like, have your stuff together about selling a book. And the fact that you had all like, you had these fears about, like, getting rejected by it, and like, put all this into it, and you did it without having done it before. And, you know, made mistakes, looking back, that you are now helping me not replicate. Um, I feel, I feel a little, I feel a little better about this. And also, I guess I have a deadline now, which is five days from now to have the website functional. So, that's fun.  Colleen Schnettler  38:51You're welcome. I'm here for you, Michele. Just push you over the cliff. Michele Hansen  38:56Like, copy paste content into it, right? Um, I noticed actually that Sean, like, your site has a ton of testimonials, and that's something I have been sort of tepidly starting to collect. Like, I guess I'm a little bit afraid to, like, ask people for testimonials. But I've gotten a couple. Sean Fioritto  39:17So what you do is you write them the testimonial, then you email them and you say can I use this as your testimonial? And then they say yes, and then you put it on your page. Michele Hansen  39:25That's lower friction than what I've been asking for. Um, but, but that makes sense. Sean Fioritto  39:32I mean, I would also peel out, so they said something good in an email and I'd copy it and then change it so it sounded better, and then, can I use this as a testimonial?  Michele Hansen  39:39Yeah. Yeah.  Sean Fioritto  39:42I mean, when I say sounds better, I mean, just like copy edit, right? Michele Hansen  39:45I mean, I guess, like, we do that with Geocodio. And I think, like, Colleen and I have talked about this how, I guess I've like, gotten over all of these fears with Geocodio, and I'm so much more confident with it. And maybe it's because it doesn't have my name, like, directly on it, or it's just been around for like seven and a half years now. Versus this, I'm like, I'm so much more unsure. Like,  Sean Fioritto  40:07You haven't done this in a long time.  Michele Hansen  40:08I never have written a book. Sean Fioritto  40:12Well, whatever. Like, you haven't done a launch. Because you can launch anything. You could have launched Geocodio. Michele Hansen  40:18Yeah. Sean Fioritto  40:18You could've launched it this way, too. But you just haven't done that before. And it's weird, launch is weird because launch is like, everybody, pay attention to me now.  Michele Hansen  40:29Yeah, I'm just super uncomfortable with that.  Sean Fioritto  40:33Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's what it feels like. But then when I realized it was, if you're doing it, right, it's not that. It feels like it, but you're not actually making it about you. It's about them. And then for like, a couple days, you know, you gotta be like, here's the product, you can buy it, and you got to be like sending more emails than you normally. Lots of people will unsubscribe. But like I said, those people are not subscribing. Some of them probably hate you, but you know, most of them are probably just unsubscribing because like, they're, turns out, they weren't interested now that they actually see what it is. They're like, oh, no, that's not what I was thinking it was, or whatever. You get used to it, like, you definitely get used to it. I did it for a couple products. And over time, I just didn't care anymore. Like, I absolutely felt like I was doing a good for people. And I know that I was because I didn't get nearly as much. I think that some of my friends who were in that space would tell me that I needed to go harder, you know, like a little more salesy than I was. But anyway, the point is, Michele Hansen  41:39The thing is, like, I'm not like, I'm not averse to marketing, I think, I mean, this is something that like, we were actually talking about the other day, like people, like technical people being averse to like, sales and marketing and like, like, I have written the book with this in mind that like, hopefully, like, people will recommend it, like, like an audience of the book is like product leaders and marketing leaders who need to teach their teams how to do this. And so like, that's an audience I'm writing for because if they then they have like, buy the book for like five people, and then if they get a new job, or promotion, or whatever, in two years, and they need to teach the team like their new team how to do it again. Um, and so like, that is like, comfortable for me. But yeah, I guess as you were saying, like, hitting the sales hard is, is a little bit uncomfortable. And I guess I will just have to deal with a couple of days of like, that being awkward and like, doing the whole, like, you know, I don't know, like home shopping network style, like, and here's this book, and you can have it for the low, low price of $29. Plus, all of these bundles. Like, Sean Fioritto  42:43So, the thing that, okay, maybe this will help you, but they would help, it helped me, is I just focus on, on the, on the people that are, on your audience, and like your copy and everything is about them. It's about you. You're using, I know you're doing this, right, so you're gonna use the word you in your copy. Like, you never use the word I in your copy, right? So everything is about them. You've done all this research, you know, them, you know, you know, the problems they're facing, you know the pains they're having. And so you could just keep talking about that, talking about that. Launch, then, is then just like, more of those types of emails, like, a higher cadence than you're used to, which is still just about them. And then you're hitting them with like, okay, and now it's here. Like, you're, the whole time you're telling them it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And then now it's here, here's what's in it, and you're gonna have these emails that just say, here's everything that's in it, and then here's questions that people might have, email that follows up, and then hey, this is gonna end in like a certain amount of time, follow up and then you got one hour left, you know, email. So you do these, you do this sequence of emails, but like, you have to remember when you're sending those that are the most uncomfortable that some people are really, really excited, and if you don't send them that stuff, they won't buy it and they'll, they'll regret it. Like, there's some people that genuinely are very excited and super thrilled to get those emails. Michele Hansen  44:03Can I run a, I have like, a tagline, or not like, a headline I have been throwing around in my head. Can I run it past you?  Sean Fioritto  44:12Yeah. For an article?  Michele Hansen  44:13No, for the book, but like, so like, this would be the like, main headline on the site. Sean Fioritto  44:18Yeah, yeah.  Michele Hansen  44:21Your time is too valuable to spend it building things people don't want.  Sean Fioritto  44:27Perfect. I mean, it's a little wordy, but yeah, like, the concept is perfect. Michele Hansen  44:32I will work on the wordiness. Sean Fioritto  44:36I mean, it's really, it's good, though. That's perfect.  Michele Hansen  44:38It's good. I guess it's good enough, right? It's good enough for me to slap a site together in the next, checks watch, five days, and, and get that going. Sean Fioritto  44:50Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, you could roll with that as an H2 on a landing page. Easy. Yeah. That would be fine the way it is. Michele Hansen  44:57Cool. Second image of the book. All right. There's all this stuff I'll have to do, but I guess I'll just be working away at this. Sean Fioritto  45:04You know what would be fun for you? I have an archived version of like, my old initial website, if you go to, oh, it doesn't work anymore. Michele Hansen  45:15Can I look it up on Internet Archive? Or it's like, Sean Fioritto  45:19Probably you can, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't. I used to have it just up so that I could, you could go to the URL. But yeah, so you'd have to go through the Internet Archive. But I had, and I did a, I did a write up on the landing page tear down and discussed screenshots from the, from the old version. It was truly, truly awful. But I sold $7,000 worth of book through it. So, Michele Hansen  45:40Can I ask you how much you sold overall? Do you reveal that? Sean Fioritto  45:44Yeah, yeah, of course. So it's actually hard to know because the, well, because as I've revealed I'm not fantastic about keeping track of my finances, or I wasn't then, but the, the book, through its lifespan, has made about $150,000.  Michele Hansen  46:06Whoa.  Sean Fioritto  46:07And most of that was the first two years because I was really, really actively pushing it. And then it just sort of, like, continued to make sales in dribs and drabs, and now it makes, probably, I don't know, I think I sold $1,000 worth of it last year, which makes sense, because it's pretty out of date at this point. Michele Hansen  46:28That'd be interesting to know why people are still buying it. Sean Fioritto  46:32Well, because the concept of designing in a browser is still something that people, you know, talk about from time to time. Should designers write code, or should they be using Figma, or at the time, you know, Sketch or Photoshop, I think all my copy is about Photoshop. So, you know, so like, I think that that concept is still valid. My copy is a little dated, the, the tech inside the book is a little, little dated at this point, though, still useful. So yeah, I think that is just the, so that was one of the things that I learned for content marketing was the, so if you want something to be really like, a really big hit, and to sort of like, make the rounds on the internet, you know, just those articles, it's sometimes just like, everybody's reading. The key to those is there has to be, well, there's like three rules. But like, one of the rules is, it has to be something everybody's talking about right now. And so at the time, everyone was talking about should we design in the browser? That was a big point of conversation. I would say now, like a similar level of conversation would be people talking about how much they hate single page apps, like in the Ruby on Rails community and trying to like, get off of that, right. So like, if you wrote a book about building single page app equivalents in Hotwire or something like that, that would probably resonate really, really well with that community right now. And you'd get a lot of free buzz when it's, people are already talking about it. So that's the problem. I think that that's why, like, hardly anybody's buying it now. But still, people are talking about that. So you get like, a little bit. And then also, I have all these marketing automated things that are still running. So like, I have some content that I accidentally wrote that has a lot of Google traffic, right? Like, I didn't accidentally write it, but I accidentally, like, did some search engine optimization on it. And so I get quite a bit of traffic from those pages, and then they end up signing up for, like, my tutorial things. And then they're in my little email automation thing that I set up, and eventually they get a pitch and then they, and then they buy. So there's some trickle down of that. Michele Hansen  48:50That makes sense. So, I guess, and this will be my last question. Um, is there anything else I should know about selling a book? Sean Fioritto  49:02Yeah, you don't have to do any of the things that I said, like. Like, well I think, I think you're already like doing all the right things. I was pushing really hard to make it my business. And so that, and frankly, once it got to the point where it was my business, that was a distraction for me. It made it hard, harder for me to stay relaxed and focused on doing the things that were the best for my customers, like, once money became this, like concern. So to me, you have this advantage of like, you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. Like, each one of the things that I did, like it feels like you should bone up a little bit on how to do a launch, though that's not too difficult. You don't have to do like, the greatest job ever, and you maybe even already know how to do that to some extent. But other than that, I don't know, like 200 people on the mailing list, probably enough already. And you'll get more as people are more and more interested. And, you know, do you have an email subscribe on any of your content at all that you've written? Michele Hansen  50:16So it's all in review, so I think it all has a subscribe link at the bottom.  Sean Fioritto  50:22Perfect. Michele Hansen  50:23I think I have one on Twitter, like, on my pinned tweet is a subscription to the newsletter. Sean Fioritto  50:30Yeah, yeah. Cuz like, by the time I was doing it full time, I mean, the number of, I was doing so many other things that we didn't even talk about, for marketing, which it's like, we don't, we don't even need to go there. Because you don't, you don't need to do any of that stuff. I think you're doing everything right. And I would think carefully about, like, what your goals are with the book, and, for both you, you and for your customers, and then kind of size it right size it accordingly. And don't feel guilty about not doing all the right marketing things, because the right marketing things, just as long as you're focused on your audience and the people that are going to be reading your book, you're doing the right thing. Michele Hansen  51:13Hmm. Well, thank you for that, like, boost of encouragement.  Sean Fioritto  51:19You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  51:21I guess to wrap up, we should mention, by the way, that you have your own show. And you're actually getting something off the ground right now. Do you want to talk about that for a second? Sean Fioritto  51:34Yeah. So my friend Aaron Francis and I, we have a company called Hammerstone, that's at Hammerstone.dev. Our podcast is, is linked to there on the home page. We have, like you guys, it's kind of like a ride along podcast, and we just do our weekly check in we record it as a, as a podcast. And what we're working on is a drop in component for Laravel. The component allows you, allows your users to build, dynamically build queries, which they can, you could then use to display reports, etc. to them. Yeah, so that's, that's our new thing that we're working on. That's a new thing for me. I should probably have a whole other podcast and invite you on, ask you about how I should be marketing my software business. Michele Hansen  52:30So by the way, so, the podcast is really good. We finished it on a road trip a couple of months ago, and you should totally start at the beginning because, like so, so yes, like, the software part is interesting. But there's this whole other element that Aaron's wife is pregnant with multiples. And the podcast started in like, December, right?  Sean Fioritto  52:52Yeah.  Michele Hansen  52:53So, and she was due in April. And so there's this like, whole, like, tension of it of like, oh, my god, like, are they gonna get to launch stuff before, like, Aaron goes from being not a parent to the parent of multiple children overnight? Like, is it like, is it gonna happen? And I found myself as I was listening, I was like, oh, my god, like, like, it really added this element of suspense that I have not felt while listening to another podcast, and it made it very enjoyable. Sean Fioritto  53:24You know what's frustrating. I just realized your audience actually overlaps with the audience of my product. And I just did a horrible job of pitching it. I was like, I could just sort of half-ass explain it here. But, Michele Hansen  53:34All you Laravel people, like, just check it out.  Sean Fioritto  53:37Yeah, that's good.  Michele Hansen  53:40Just take my word for it. This has been really fun, Sean. Thank you so much for coming on.  Sean Fioritto  53:50You're welcome.  Michele Hansen  53:51I really appreciate all of your advice. And I, I don't know what you call the, the anti-advice. You know, don't ignore taxes. And encouragement and perspective, that really means a lot to me.  Sean Fioritto  54:08You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.  Michele Hansen  54:11This is awesome. So if you guys liked this episode, please leave us a review on iTunes. Or let us know that you listened on Twitter, and we'll talk to you next week.

Disciple Up # 212 I'm a Christian NOT a Victim! By Louie Marsh, 5-26-2021   Intro. Picking up were yesterday's sermon ends, the URL for it is below.   https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/christschurchontheriver/06_The_Gospel_of_John_1-7_Do_I_Want_to_Get_Well.mp3   I'm going to do some recapping of the early parts and then get into the main point here.   1) Do I REALLY WANT to get well?   5  One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6  When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" John 5:5-6 (NIV)   This may be the most profound question in the entire Bible. If it's not then it's certainly one of the most important and profound.   It seems like such a silly question to ask. Surely a man who had been disabled for that many years would love to be healed.   But the truth is, that many of us grow so accustomed to being sick or needy and the attention that it brings them that I'm not really sure that they want things to be any different.   Christ's question to all of us this morning is “Do you want to get well?”   Some of us here today face serious physical illness. But many of us are not physically ill but have allowed other things to ruin our lives. Whether that's alcohol abuse, drug abuse, sexual sin, pornography, greed, people pleasing, fear, etc. We all have to answer this question – Do I really want to get well, or have I become comfortable in my dysfunction and sin?   I have to move beyond just wanting the pain and discomfort to end. What Jesus wants to know is do I want to be well? Do I want to start down the road to becoming like Christ, the real road to recovery.   Is THAT what I want? Or do I just want a little relief from my pain?   2) SOME SIGNS I'M NOT SERIOUS ABOUT GETTING WELL.   I practice BLAME SHIFTING   7  The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.” John 5:7 (ESV)   12  The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13  Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” Genesis 3:12-13 (ESV)   I make EXCUSES.   I have NO TALENT OR ABILITY.   But Moses pleaded with the LORD, "O Lord, I'm just not a good speaker. I never have been, and I'm not now, even after you have spoken to me. I'm clumsy with words." Exodus 4:10 (NLT)   It's TO HARD/DON'T KNOW HOW.   6  Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, I do not know how to speak, for I am only a youth.” Jeremiah 1:6 (ESV)   I'm too BUSY.   21  Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” Matthew 8:21 (ESV)   I use the GOD DODGE.   12  And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, “The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valor.” 13  And Gideon said to him, “Please, sir, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.” Judges 6:12-13 (ESV)   I play the VICTIM  (FEEL SORRY FOR MYSELF.)   2  And he prayed to the LORD and said, “O LORD, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster. 3  Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.” Jonah 4:2-3 (ESV)   Thinking Biblically about suffering, rejection and all kinds of pain will require a major shift in our perspective.   “38So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice, 40and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name. 42And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus.” (Acts 5:38–42, ESV)   “18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.” (Romans 8:18–25, ESV)   “7But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death is at work in us, but life in you.   16So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 17For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:7–12, 16-18, ESV)   “21For to THIS you have been called, because Christ also SUFFERED for you, leaving you an example, so that you might FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS. 22He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.” (1 Peter 2:21–25, ESV)   “31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:31–39, ESV)  

Guest Co-host:  Rebecca Hoffman:  rebecca@goodeggconcepts.comRebecca's Website:  www.GoodEggConcepts.comPodcast Guest:  Lourdes Nicholls:  lourdes@oakpark.com Transcription: Kris Parsons 00:02Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do it too.  Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.Ray Loewe 00:16The morning everybody and welcome to wildfire podcast studios in wonderful Woodbury, I got that wrong already Woodbury, New Jersey, and we are here with our engineer Taylor, who keeps us running smooth, and without him, we couldn't do these podcasts. So we have a couple of great guests today. And I think we need to make a comment before we get into our guests about the luckiest people in the world and remind everybody that they're the people who sit down and design their own lives, and who understand that things are going to change. And so they don't just design their own lives once, they constantly design their own lives, so that they can live their lives under their own terms, and live them being happy and content with where they're going. And we have two of the luckiest people in the world. Joining us in a minute. Let me bring on Rebecca Hoffman. Rebecca has been our guest host for the last month. And unfortunately Rebecca this is our last one, isn't it? Uh oh. So we're gonna have to do something about that. And Rebecca runs Good Egg Concepts. And every time I think about this, I get this image of Humpty Dumpty, but Humpty didn't fall off the wall. In this case, he's there. And he's intact. And, Rebecca designs, branding for people. And she is one of the best storytellers in the world. And best of all, one of the best people that help you craft stories. And we're going to craft another one today, aren't we, Rebecca?Rebecca Hoffman01:53Yes, we are. We have a great story to tell here today. And I'm excited for it.Ray Loewe 01:58Cool. Why don't you introduce our guest?Rebecca Hoffman 02:00Sure. Our guest today is Lourdes Nicholls, who I'm so proud to say is my friend, we met through some mutual work we were doing together. And as sometimes work will do when you're done with the work you get to talking about your life when you like somebody and we sat together one day and talked over coffee. And she told me a little bit of her life story, which really resonated with me because it was a story that's of personal interest to me privately. And I'm gonna let Lourdes tell the story. But I'm just gonna say that Lourdes is starting to devote and dedicate her life to greater understanding and education around the Japanese American incarceration during World War II. And I'm just delighted that Lourdes is going to take a little time with us to tell us about her family and kind of give us a sense of why this chapter in American history is profound and needs to be considered, especially in the moment we're in today. Lourdes, thanks for being here.Lourdes Nicholls  02:57Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. And I feel like the luckiest person to be part of a part of today and a part of you, and you've done so much to help me. So I appreciate you as much Rebecca.Ray Loewe 03:12Once you're on one of these podcasts, you're one of the luckiest people in the world whether you want to be or not, and you can't get out of it.Lourdes Nicholls  03:20Okay.  I'll take it.Rebecca Hoffman 03:23Maybe we should begin at the logical beginning. And maybe Lourdes tell us a little bit about your family. And if you don't mind, for the listeners who may not be as familiar Can you describe what the Japanese American incarceration was, it was previously referred to as internment. But that's not a term that's used anymore. And maybe you can sort of have a little background so we understand.Lourdes Nicholls  03:43Sure. So when I was growing up, I always knew that my mom was born in a Japanese what I called an internment camp at Manzanar during World War II. I know now that the word internment camp is really an outdated term, it's just not, not what it was. It was an incarceration camp. And it's, you know, taken time and understanding and really learning more and working on this, you know, researching my family that I've come to understand the terminology that was used at the time during World War II and the terminology that we know now. And what exactly was going on many of the words that were used during World War II were to shape this narrative about what was going on, I mean, two-thirds of the people that were incarcerated, the Japanese Americans were US citizens, you know, they were forcibly removed from their homes, and they were sent to places all over the country. They sold all of their belongings and, you know, basically had to rebuild their lives, you know, after the war. So Um, yeah, I mean, it's kind of depressing, actually. But, I mean, it's a sad piece that I was asked to do. I was in high school, I was required to do a family history project. And that's kind of how this ball got rolling. I was required to interview my grandparents. And that's really when this all started. So, you know, 1982.Rebecca Hoffman 05:30So you were living your family was living in Berkeley, California, you're a teenager in high school, going through all the things that teenagers go through, and you're asked to do a family history, like oral history type project, what did you uncover?Lourdes Nicholls  05:44You know, I, again, I knew kind of this term that my mom was born in the camp, but I didn't really know. I heard family members talking about camp, but I thought it was summer camp. Honestly. I didn't really get it. You know, I was 15 years old at the time. And just, you know, growing up, I guess. So what happened was, this project was a requirement. My mom and I flew to Los Angeles, where her parents were. And for the first time, I think, ever, my mom said, they talked about what they endured while living at Manzanar. And it just brought a lot of shame to my family. A lot of, you know, hard times for sure. Prior to World War II, my grandfather had quite a life, you know, and I think that really that whole experience, and even after the war, after World War II, he actually worked for the US government and was a translator for the war crimes trials, which by the way, is probably one of the most disturbing things you can probably do. I mean, really, I mean, it's just unbelievable the things that he did, and I think it really depressed him quite a bit.Rebecca Hoffman07:07So your grandfather, pre World War II, he had an interesting job. But then he ended up in California, could you tell us, I guess the part that really affected me was the work that he did before there was ever a war. And then your family had a garden center. I'm gonna kind of talk for a minute about what he was like, how he was an expert in something, and then how did that end up becoming something he was able to use to survive Manzanar.07:35Um, so long story short, my grandfather was not a US citizen. My grandmother was, he came to the United States in 1916. He came to Los Angeles. Long story short, in the early 1920s. He made his way to Chicago, and he went to school at the Art Institute of Chicago. And while he was there, he met a man named George Harding Jr., and George Harding, Jr. was probably one of the wealthiest people in Chicago at the time. I know he was the first person to own an automobile. He added his own airplane. He had a mansion in the Hyde Park area. And he collected Arms and Armor and art from all over the world. And he met my grandfather and was very interested in him and his background and hired him to be his curator of all of the medieval items that he had and paintings and my grandfather worked for George Harding Jr. From the mid-1920s until 1940. And during that time, my grandfather lived at the mansion. He met Presidents, Vice Presidents, he met Al Capone, he met lots of dignitaries who came to the museum, which by the way, was the house, you know, before the Field Museum and other places people had like Driehaus, you know, they had private collections in their own home, right. Yeah. So, yeah. So my grandfather worked there. And, you know, again, I have newspaper articles. I have all sorts of history about that. Um, the ironic thing is, you know, George Harding, Jr. died unexpectedly in 1939. And that's kind of when things started to fall apart with, you know, with what was going to happen with my grandfather's job. And my grandfather and grandmother ended up moving to Los Angeles. I will say there is a happy ending to the George Harding collection is currently visible at the Art Institute of Chicago for many people who know the Chicagoland area. It's Sir, it's a real gem. And my family, we feel very fortunate because my grandfather's albums of the photos were used to put the displays together. Many of the things they weren't, as you know, had they'd never seen photos from inside the mansion the way, my grandfather took them. So kind of a nice part of being a part of, you know, living in the Chicagoland area. It's kind of a nice piece of history for our family.Rebecca Hoffman10:30Well, and I can add, it's probably one of the most popular displays. That's where people go because art comes to life when you see the medieval armor and all the accessories. So your grandfather enjoyed this tremendous this rarefied life here and then he goes to Los Angeles with your grandmother, and they buy or form a garden center.Correct. Lourdes Nicholls  10:53Right. So my grandfather could not find a job as a curator, you know, when he went to Los Angeles, I mean, it's kind of a unique job. Apparently, my grandfather was going to be a curator of a museum in Manchuria. But my grandmother's family who was from Los Angeles didn't think it was a good idea in 1940 to go. So the only thing that my grandfather could piece together was to become a gardener. And that's what a lot of Japanese Americans were doing at that time. So he opened a garden center in Culver City. And he, had that garden center until, you know, until he went to Manzanar on December 7, 1941, it was actually my grandparent's fifth wedding anniversary, because they were born out they were married on that date, in 1936. And I can only imagine that their five-year wedding anniversary was a complete nightmare. And it really wasn't what they were envisioning. And then within about two months, on February 19, 1942, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, which required all Japanese Americans whether or not they were American citizens or not living on the west coast, Washington, Oregon, California, and parts of Arizona to be sent to these incarceration centers.Rebecca Hoffman12:30Your family then had to make quick plans because there was no choice the government was going to force them to move. What did they do?Lourdes Nicholls  12:39Correct. So my grandfather, you know, my grandparents, from what I learned, had to sell everything or get rid of everything. And so they had to sell the nursery and the only person that they were able to find that was remotely interested in the nursery was the milkman who came to their house every day. My grandfather said, Are you interested? And he said, I only have $75. And so that's all that my grandfather got for the whole bird nursery. And Rebecca, you know, you've seen photos of it. I mean, it wasn't a small little shop. It was it was big. There was a pond. It was it gorgeous.Rebecca Hoffman 13:20Gorgeous plantings. Yeah, a little bit of a dream world. Yeah. So they got $75 for their family business. And they moved to Manzanar. Yeah. And yet, and I don't want to tell this part of the story, I  want you to tell it but yet when your grandparents get to Manzanar, your grandfather's still, in spite of this terribly adverse circumstance does something spectacular. What did he do there?Lourdes Nicholls  13:43So my grandfather, um, you know, I'm sure that it was a very scary time to, you know, board up go somewhere you don't know. Live in a 20 by 25-foot barrack. You know, build your own mattress out of straw. I mean, the pictures of what they had to do just to get into their accommodations. There's just nothing that you want to do. It wasn't until maybe about maybe less than six months after they arrived. They arrived in Manzanar on April 8, 1942. The head of Manzanar Ralph Merritt found out that my grandfather had worked at a museum and had this experience and he asked my grandfather to start a museum at the camp for the incarcerated. To show them what the rest of the world looks like and how they can, you know, things that they could do either participate or see things that they weren't used to seeing. So my grandfather created the visual education Museum, which was really to help young children who, by the way, maybe they had never been in a grocery store before, or maybe they had, they didn't know, you know, my grandfather wrote to all these places and asked for books and photos of like insects, animals, all sorts of things, and created a place for people to see exhibits and participate.  Some of the participants really, I think, got a lot out of it. I mean, as you know, like working with art or creating art, some amazing things came out of that. So absolutely amazing.Rebecca Hoffman15:40So, here's your grandfather and your grandmother, they're living in, they're incarcerated. This is not by choice, and he still creates basically a museum or a gallery for understanding the world. Correct. And this incarceration has an unknown end at this time, right. So he's building something. And famous artists came to see this gallery and showed some of their art there. Am I correct? Maybe a famous, photographer?Lourdes Nicholls  16:07I mean, you know, Ansel Adams and Dorothea Lange, were both hired by the government to take photos. So maybe you've seen some of these photos. And they are quite striking. The main thing to know about those photos is that those photographers were not allowed to take pictures of the barbed wire of the guard towers with guards inside with guns, you know, pointing towards the camp. So, Ansel Adams and Dorothea Lange, both captured the people that were there, and all of their daily life experiences. And my grandfather put together, you know, the Ansel Adams exhibit at Manzanar, which, luckily, I have a photo of. And Ansel Adams came back to Manzanar four times, I mean. He was regularly there and really had a lot of sympathy for the people who were there. I, unfortunately, I didn't get to talk to my grandfather about Ansel Adams, because I assumed that they had conversations. But I still, you know, I think that Ansel Adams photos, and the book that he wrote, called born free and equal, which actually ended up becoming a banned book and Ansel Adams was really not well received because he wanted people to understand that, you know, the Japanese Americans were not a threat, and that no Japanese American was ever convicted of any kind of crime or helping in any way during the war. So it's tragic, it's sad, it's a sad piece, actually.Ray Loewe17:54You know, let me interrupt and I don't know if you've noticed, but I haven't interrupted for 12 minutes. I never not interrupt for 12 minutes. I mean, what an incredible story. And I want to put this story in perspective a little bit because I hear you are Lourdes, You grew up in Berkeley, you moved to Chicago in 1991. You're a normal person. You have three kids, right? You have a job, which you like, right? And you're out running marathons, and you met everybody in the city of Oak Park so that every two blocks, you would have somebody to save you if you stumbled in a marathon? Right?Lourdes Nicholls  18:32I think I do. Yes, I hope I do.Ray Loewe18:34Yeah. So here you are. And then you get hit somewhere along the way with this incredible story as a 15-year-old, that probably no 15-year-old should have to face and yet you faced it. And it's become a project that you're running. Not In addition, not in addition to your life. You haven't dropped her life. You're running it like you normally did. And you're, spending time with this. So you've got this incredible story. Where's it going? What are you going to do with it?Lourdes Nicholls  19:07Good question. I mean, honestly, I love family history. I love anyone's family history. But my family history has become just a part-time job for me. I mean, it's always in the for, you know, it's always on my mind. I'm always trying to uncover new things. I would say that there was an exhibit in 2017. Then they came for me in Chicago, and then it went to New York City. I was asked to if I could come up with some documents or pieces for that exhibit. And that kind of got me reinvigorated in this whole piece of history. My mom was very reluctant. She really was not into talking about it. It brought a lot of shame to her family. But I will say that I'm bringing her to Manzanar, we went several times. And then going to the then they came for me exhibit in Chicago and New York. You know, she really started to understand more and accept it. I mean, she has said, she said for a long time it was intergenerational trauma, even though she didn't remember ever being at Manzanar as a baby. You know, it was part of her and her family. You know, so that has been kind of my, I don't know, I just something inside of me. I just keep moving forward, even though it's hard. My mom passed away about a year and a half ago. And, you know, she was my best friend and biggest cheerleader. I mean, that's, you know, so doing this by myself. I mean, I'm choked up just talking about it. It's really hard.Ray Loewe20:56But you have a movie coming out of this right. Or some film? Lourdes Nicholls  21:01Well, I have.  I'm so lucky to have Rebecca who introduced me to Arielle Nobiles, who is working on a documentary called, well, the series is belonging in the USA. And she has picked amazing people and I'm lucky to be one of them to focus on and so that should be coming out. I think I'm hoping December 7, 2021, which is the 80th anniversary of Pearl Harbor day, and it's also the 30th anniversary of the day, my grandmother died. Because everything happens on December 7, and my family, my grandparents were married, Pearl Harbor day happened and my grandmother died on that day. So it's kind of bittersweet. But yeah.Rebecca Hoffman21:52I hope, spectacular history. And, you know, as I hear you speaking, I think, okay, if I'm just listening to this, and I don't know much, what can I see? What can I look at? I know the movie is coming out? It's not a movie. It's a documentary film that's coming out later this year. When I first met you, you said you need to watch the orange story, which is a short film, maybe 12-15 minutes. Right. Lourdes Nicholls  22:16So orange story, yes. Which is I recommend to classrooms when I speak to them. It's at the orange story.org it's only 15 minutes. And so that you can get it in class. It was filmed here in Chicago by my friend Jason Matsumoto. And it really shows how Japanese Americans went from living everyday life like the three of us. And then suddenly, something happens and one particular person has to sell their business, pack things up. You know, it's heart-wrenching. Um, but I think that that's a really great intro. It's pretty much required viewing because then you can kind of be more up to speed, and especially, it's for all ages. I mean, kids, young kids can watch it and understand, you know, older adults, anybody. SoRay Loewe23:16Well, unfortunately, time is at its end. So Rebecca, do you have any final comments, Rebecca, and then we'll get some out of Lourdes?Rebecca Hoffman23:25Well, I you know, I just want to say thank you to Lourdes for sharing the story. And I hope that people who are listening to this will take their knowledge effort a little further, there's never been a better time to have a look at this chapter in American history. And consider, you know, what happened and how we can go one better we can do better?Ray Loewe23:44Yeah. And Lourdes, any final comments? Lourdes Nicholls  23:48Just, I mean, I'm, I don't feel I mean, I feel like everyone has a story to tell me about their family. They just have to unlock it. And I've been, I keep trying to unlock more. But, um, yeah, it's been a bittersweet experience. But I'm still learning new things all the time. So it's, great. It's great. I love it.Ray Loewe24:11And thanks, everybody, for being here. Rebecca, thank you so much for being our co-host.  Time has flown by in four weeks. And everybody Join us next week, we're going to have a brand new co-host, I'm not telling in advance. And we've got some great guests. And hopefully, we'll see Lourdes at one of our cocktail events soon where you can actually sit down and ask her some questions about this whole process. So thank you guys, for being with us. Thank our listeners for being with us. And we'll see you again next week.Kris Parsons24:46Thank you for listening to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best life and how you can figure out how to do that too. Join us with your lively host Ray Loewe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.

Revelation 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Important Decision In The Spread Of The Gospel Acts 18:12 - 17 12While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13“This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.” 14Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16So he drove them off. 17Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.

Here is the setting: the people are rejoicing over the newness of the message and the Kingdom of God. The barriers are being torn down and they are excited about being allowed in where they thought only special people could go. They are excited about healings and deliverance, a new life made available. The disciples are exploring these developments with the teachings of Jesus and are being overwhelmed with the newness and excitement of it all.  The Pharisees see their very existence threatened.  And Jesus is not condemning or unloving, he just continues to share the deep and cutting truth that hinders people from experiencing the love and healing power of God.  At stake is the basic understanding of who God is, and the result of wondering if all they have done in life is of any value at all. This conflicts with their views on power, authority, wealth, position, culture, even God's decree of their special status in the world, whether the Romans knew it or not.  Jesus is not being unkind, but his love for them all does not allow him to be dishonest in confronting the dominant sins in their lives. And his knowledge of God does not allow them to hide their sins behind their assumed religious façade, which permits them to secretly hide their sins: see 1 John 2:16So what Jesus is helping them do, is to peel back the onion skins of their lives:You know what happens when you do this? It eventually brings out the tears! (Peel onion

Weekly Bible Study with Scott (February 2nd, 2021) *** Just because you may be in the Lion's den doesn't mean you give up, it is not over until God says it over! Daniel 6:10–23 (NKJV) 10Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went home. And in his upper room, with his windows open toward Jerusalem, he knelt down on his knees three times that day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days. 11Then these men assembled and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God. 12And they went before the king, and spoke concerning the king's decree: “Have you not signed a decree that every man who petitions any god or man within thirty days, except you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?” The king answered and said, “The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which does not alter.” 13So they answered and said before the king, “That Daniel, who is one of the captives from Judah, does not show due regard for you, O king, or for the decree that you have signed, but makes his petition three times a day.” 14And the king, when he heard these words, was greatly displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him; and he labored till the going down of the sun to deliver him. 15Then these men approached the king, and said to the king, “Know, O king, that it is the law of the Medes and Persians that no decree or statute which the king establishes may be changed.” 16So the king gave the command, and they brought Daniel and cast him into the den of lions. But the king spoke, saying to Daniel, “Your God, whom you serve continually, He will deliver you.” 17Then a stone was brought and laid on the mouth of the den, and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signets of his lords, that the purpose concerning Daniel might not be changed. 18Now the king went to his palace and spent the night fasting; and no musicians were brought before him. Also his sleep went from him. 19Then the king arose very early in the morning and went in haste to the den of lions. 20And when he came to the den, he cried out with a lamenting voice to Daniel. The king spoke, saying to Daniel, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?” 21Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you.” 23Now the king was exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he believed in his God. Isaiah 54:17 (NKJV) 17No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, And their righteousness is from Me,” Says the Lord.

We invite you to join us in sharing in the true celebration of Christmas, Jesus’ birth. #JesusIsTheReasonForTheSeason Listen in as we read from the book of Luke. From our home to yours, Merry Christmas. We pray you have a wonderfully blessed Christmas!! Luke 1:26-38 - The Birth of Jesus Foretold 26In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” 29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” 34“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37For no word from God will ever fail.” 38“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her. Luke 2 - The Birth of Jesus 1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to their own town to register. 4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them. 8And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, 14“Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.” 15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.” 16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told. ****** To learn more about our ministry visit www.fearlessfeatures.org

13Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.c 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.d

By Mary Lindow through the Holy SpiritFor many weeks now, just as I was about to fall into a good deep sleep, I have heard in my spirit the words, “The Winter of our Malcontent”. Trying to reconcile those words in my own thinking, I would then say to myself, “You mean the winter of our discontent don’t you?" (I was thinking about the fact that Shakespeare wrote this and put into print in Richard III,1594.)Again and again the same event would take place until I was made aware of what the Lord would have me write and share with those - who may have ears to hear. For you see, the subject can be one that many FEAR.Malcontent; definitionDisappointed, disenchanted, disillusioned, frustrated, unfulfilled; disquieted, disturbed, perturbed, upset; dejected, depressed, despairing, despondentTHE WRINGING OF HANDS AND HEARTFor some, it is easier to simply live in a shell of denial or self concocted false spiritual bliss than to look soberly and head on at the turmoil and drama that the world is rapidly spinning and bobbing in.It will not easily or wishfully go away, and at this time we are and will be, facing severe repercussions for wicked choices made by governments, banking systems and yes religious institutions.All three can do good things, but many currently have chosen the ways of corruption, selfish ambition, deceptive story telling and above all, the giving away of their heart and minds to the god of this world. A god who traps its victims with promises of greater power, influence, and an adoring mass of lesser gifted humans who are expected to give homage without asking questions.These pressures and practices can tear at the soul of the discerning hearts who see more than the handwriting on the wall.  They know, regardless of a solid stance of Faith in Gods providence and care - that something is very very wrong and, it is escalating.THE FEAR AND HOLLOW ACHE WITHIN YOUR HEART Many are panicking and poring over every website and news bulletin to see if there are falsities that they can catch and prove in the wrong, or truths that they can exploit. Neither of these will help.And, the fear mongers believe that we all must be totally obsessed and baptized in fear by pouring it out to their audiences.They will feed the panic and give power to the spirit of terror that is looming large and with insidious precision.Where do apparent Bible believers get reliable information to nourish their fears? From you and me. We do it to each other all the time.Why do we deliver information to our brother or sister that will feed his or her fears?THE FIRST CAUSE OF FEAR IS THE FEAR OF LOSING PLAYTHINGS AND SAFETY.We believe that "my God shall supply all your needs," but our old nature cannot believe that, especially when we hear news from worldly sources telling us someone is trying to take our toys and life resources away from us. When we give place to fear, and feast on it, feed it, and pass it on to other people, we are boldly denying that Christ will be our supplier.If you have a belief concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humankind that has no hope, no light, and you have the Church headed straight into a train wreck instead of looking at the light at the end of the tunnel, you are WICKED.If all you do is sit around and talk with wide-eyed terror about the New World Order, the crash of the banks, the collapse of the dollar, and the concentration camps and micro chips getting ready for us you’re not only feeding fear, you also are a promoter and preacher of it.Harsh words? No. Honest words intended to get you to shake off morbid living and to decide to truly serve the LIVING GOD or serve - Fear. WHAT FEAR ISFear is a harsh and wicked taskmaster.Fear will not let you sleep well at night.Fear brings condemnation and shame.Fear causes hoarding and secret self-protections.Fear will make you betray others to hide and protect your way of living and your opinions.Fear will join with accusation and destroy safe relationships, by isolating you.Fear is a liar and gathers clusters of other tormenting spirits to join with it.Fear creates excitement for those who use it as a tool to gain attention or - control. JESUS HAS TAKEN CARE OF HIS BRIDE FOR OVER 2000 YEARSHe is still doing so, and will never ever stop!Know this! The light of Christ that shines in very dark times is the ONLY light that is available. I say this because this light is on "until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." The light of prophecy is the light at the end of the tunnel of human history, and that light is a person:“ I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you, these things in the churches.I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” Revelation 22:16So, the darker it is, the more blessed that light is.The stars shine at night, not during the daylight.Light a candle in a room that has many lamps on, and no one will notice, but strike the smallest match you can find in a totally blacked out room, and EVERY EYE WILL BE ON THAT LIGHT! WHY ARE OUR EYES, AND MOUTH FIXATED WITH HOW EXCEEDINGLY DARK IT IS?1 Thessalonians 5 says“You are all the children of light, And the children of the day.We are not of the night, Nor of darkness.” WHAT TO DO NOWPhilippians 4:6-7Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.Tell me, what good is it to obsess or prepare to survive the coming crash or doom if you end up living a stressed and tormented life over it?You’re afraid because you don’t think God can handle your situation.You’re afraid you are going to die, you are afraid you’re going to get sick, you’re afraid your kids are going to get hurt, you’re afraid the roof is going to fall in, you’re afraid the demons are going to get you!Whatever it is, it comes from two things.Number one: You have a guilty conscience. Number two: You have weak faith in God. You can deal with both of those. Have a guilty conscience?  Confess your sin and get it all cleaned out.Weak faith? Get your Bible open and read what God says about Himself and learn to trust Him.... And pray.2 Timothy 1:7For the Spirit, which God has given us, Is not a spirit of cowardice.But one of power and of love and of sound judgment. FAITH OBEYS GOD IN SPITE OF CIRCUMSTANCES OR CONSEQUENCESFear can creep into the hearts of the young and the old, the rich and the poor, the most educated and the least educated, the powerful and the powerless.What can one do to be freed of fear?Faith is not afraid of what others may say or do.An Elijah complex can rob you of power and joy, so beware! Elijah went from victory to defeat because he started walking by sight and not by faith. He believed the wicked queen Jezebel's words but not God’s word, and he forgot how God had cared for him for three and a half years. Fear replaced faith, and he ran for his life. We need to obey the words Do not be afraid; only believe (Mark 5:36).Faith and fear are opposites, and yet, strange to say, they are often found dwelling within the same person; but where one is forceful the other is undeveloped. The constant attitude of the Christian must and needs to be,“Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For the LORD GOD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation.Isaiah 12:2 WHAT OUGHT TO BE, AND WHAT ACTUALLY ISARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.When I am afraid, I will put my trust in You. Psalm 56:3However, when the grace of faith is in practice, its verbal communication will be:One thing that must be addressed as well is the situation where there are believers who are currently in trauma, loss, or who are persevering through very difficult and possibly harrowing situations. Very often those who have a shallow development of the fruit of Mercy and attributes of discernment are often found to spout out well rehearsed “shotgun lines” of scripture at those who are in the throws of battle and sorrow.THIS IS NOT OK! It shows a great lack of genuine Christian Character and even worse, a lack of the nature of Christ. The following verse will clear up any religious sputtering about this, and hopefully bring a nice bit of conviction to the legalistic and hardhearted.So those of us who have a strong [faith] must be patient with the weaknesses of those whose [faith] is not so strong. We must not think only of ourselves.Romans 15:1Jesus Stood up in the Storm and spoke PEACE.He did not scold and hammer away at the frighten men in the boat with him. He did not shame them with a tone of superiority or condescending blather when he said,  “Why do you struggle with trusting Me (faith) to take care of you?”  He used moments of doubt and fearfulness all throughout the bible as teaching moments, to disciple His beloved children. We too - Can learn from this. It will be much needed in the days ahead.LET’S PRAY TOGETHER AND BE FREE FROM FEARDear Jesus Christ,I know that all power and authority on Heaven and Earth belongs to You alone. I come to You today, asking for supernatural divine deliverance from fear.I am facing numerous issues that are scaring me, sometimes tormenting me! I ask you right now Jesus, in faith and with all of my existence, please, please deliver me from all fear. I gave You my soul when I became a Christian.So right now, I choose to symbolically, hand literally hand you my problems, my fears. I pray, Jesus take these fears, and strengthen me against them! Protect me from every lie of the enemy that has come my way trying to deceive me.You have told me:"Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." - John 14:27.Right now, I give it all to You Jesus. Please deal with these fears for me. In the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God almighty, I renounce satan and all of his lies that are trying to make me afraid!I pray that you Lord would bind every enemy and spirit of fear attempting to operate in my life and rebuke it! Protect me from it!Lord Jesus, please also help me recognize if there is something that I am doing to allow fear to manipulate me. Please let me know if there is something wrong that needs to change. Please let me know if there is something in my environment or home, that is causing my mind to have fearful reactions.Help us, O Heavenly Father, to dwell not on our fears, but on who you are. We can conqueror our fears only by focusing on you. Then no matter what is the cause of our fears, they will dissipate like the morning fog.This we ask in the name of Him who overcame all of His fears by fixing his eyes on You and You alone. AmenThank You! Amen!Duplication and re-transmission of this writing is welcomedprovided that complete source and website information for Mary Lindow is included.Thank you! Copyright © “ 2020 " The Messenger " ~ Mary Lindowwww.marylindow.comwww.globalprayerrooms.com

You are listening to Danny, on WHAT : DE HEK podcast. This is the place where I share my experience, knowledge and skills.Danny de Hek 0:16Yeah, so welcome along. Helen Oakes and I’m Danny de Hek. If youre interested. Now this is Helen’s first podcast of her own, we’re going to set up Helen. Helen is actually a photographer. She’s also my partner. And since COVID we’ve been looking for, to market ourselves in different wonderful ways. So as you can imagine… a photographer is having a great time at the moment because we can’t get out in public so much. So why don’t you first tell me how you actually first got involved in photography, and why you love doing photography.Helen Oakes 0:52Okay, I first got involved probably in my 20s, I would say, even a, well actually even a little bit in my teens, I quite liked photography and I had a tiny little camera, it was like a little flipout camera an Instamax camera. And I got that as a birthday present one time, and I thought that was the bees knees and I went around taking photos. It’s the sort of camera that you put these flashes, big long…um there’s about 12 flashes that you stick on the top of it.Danny de Hek 1:20Oh yeah, they look like the blue bottles on the beach.Helen Oakes 1:24Yeah, so you put those on the top of the camera, and you take photos. And it was really cool. I thought it was really fun, really cool. And then as I got older, I used to watch my brother taking photos and he had a SLR, which was a Pentax camera and I thought Wow, that looks really cool, professional looking camera. So then I decided I’d get myself a camera. So I got myself a Sigma camera, no, Minolta camera with a Sigma lens on it. And it had all the manual dials on it. And I was like, Oh, this looks a bit tricky, but I’ll have a go. And I used to always put it on one setting and I thought if I put it on this setting I’m bound to get good photos. So I’d always put it on one setting. And then I gradually started playing around a bit more with it and started learning more. And then I used to look at my brother’s photos and go, Wow, they’re really amazing. I want to get further in the photography field. Yeah.Danny de Hek 2:16So what type of photography would you say is your genre, as the say?Helen Oakes 2:20My genre would be people photography. I love taking photos of people. I love taking photos of sports people.Danny de Hek 2:27Right, have you done any events that come to mind that you’re really proud of?Helen Oakes 2:30Yeah, yeah, I love doing gymnastic events like National Gymnastic competitions, right. And I love doing just portraits of people, for workshoots and also for sport shoots.Danny de Hek 2:46So I mean, photography has taken a bit of a twist over the last few years because I know I’m quite like I used to call myself a professional photographer and then you explained my type of photography that I am but I think because most people have a camera in their pocket, they can pull it out they can take photos. Ah how do you actually compete when you’re at a gymnastic event and there’s mom and dad taking photos with their friend or their daughter or their friends children? Yeah, is that something that makes you industry hard.For the complete script check out our website athttps://www.dehek.com/podcast/mode-de-vie-podcast-episode-one-introduction/

Microbiologist Phillip Furman is the inventor of AZT, an anti-HIV drug, and other antiviral drugs for Herpes and Hepatitis B and C. He talks about his breakthrough moments, the difficulties of taking “miracle” drugs to market, and the culture shock of moving from New York to Florida as a teenager. Furman’s interest in science was fueled at age 8 with the gifts of a microscope from an uncle and a chemistry set from his parents. His advice to researchers: “Follow the data. Negative results give you as much information as positive results.” *This episode was originally released on October 23, 2019.* TRANSCRIPT: Intro: 0:01Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to Radio Cade a podcast from the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention in Gainesville, Florida. The museum is named after James Robert Cade, who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them, we’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work, and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace. Richard Miles: 0:36Treating viral diseases is hard, but not as hard as it used to be, thanks to the development of antiviral drugs. Welcome to Radio Cade, I’m your host, Richard Miles and today my guest is Phillip Furman, a microbiologist and the holder of 20 U.S. Patents. The inventor of AZT an anti-HIV drug, and a 2018 inductee into the Florida inventors hall of fame. Welcome to show Phillip and congratulations. Phillip Furman: 1:00Thank you very much, Richard. Richard Miles: 1:01So, the problem with interviewing super inventors like you is trying to focus on just one thing, but you have 20 patents, you’ve done a lot of things and you’ve developed antiviral drugs for herpes, HIV, hepatitis B and C. And we could talk about each one of those probably for a long time, but then we’d have to order in lunch, dinner, and probably sleeping bags for this session. So let’s start though with a basic definition of viruses for listeners who may not be microbiologists , how viruses act in the body and how they can be treated. Phillip Furman: 1:33Well, viruses, some people think are very simple. They are an intracellular parasite. They have to infect a cell in order to be able to reproduce themselves and their basic components are there genetic information, a virus capsid, which surrounds them. It’s a protein coat that protects them once they get into the cell. And some of them have a membrane, which they pick up when they are released from the cell, but viruses aren’t quite that simple. Richard Miles: 2:07Spoiler alert, it’s not that simple. Phillip Furman: 2:08They, a lot of them contain or code for proteins or enzymes, which function in the replication of the virus. Everybody thinks that well, once the virus gets into the cell, it requires the cell to produce enzymes and proteins that are essential for virus replication. And the buyer system takes that over and doesn’t have any of its own proteins or enzymes to replicate itself, but indeed they do. Richard Miles: 2:34So you’ve been working on this for quite a long time. Right? You got your undergraduate degree in microbiology? Phillip Furman: 2:40In microbiology. Yes. Richard Miles: 2:42What was your big breakthrough? Which one of the antiviral drugs came first? Phillip Furman: 2:46Acyclovir was the first one I worked on. Richard Miles: 2:49And that’s treatment for herpes viruses? Phillip Furman: 2:52Yes. Richard Miles: 2:52Do you remember the path, the conceptual path that got you there. What was the first thing that you noticed or discovered that made that possible? Phillip Furman: 3:00Well, the compound at the time was already discovered and patented. That happened in 1974 and I was a postdoc at Duke University and the department had at Burroughs Wellcome, Dr. Trudy Elion, who became a Nobel Laureate, was looking for a virologist to establish a virology laboratory within the company. And so I was hired to do that. My job was to work on the drug to try to find out how it worked, how it inhibited the virus. Richard Miles: 3:32So describe for us how long that takes. I mean, I think there’s a popular conception out there with a lot of inventions, including miracle drugs that you have a brilliant researcher has an insight developmental breakthrough. And few months, years later, we’ve got a wonder drug, but I’m guessing it’s not that simple. Phillip Furman: 3:51Are you referring to time of discovery to time of marketing? Richard Miles: 3:55Well, yeah, something like that or at what point are you certain of your results? How long did that take for instance, the herpes antiviral drug? Was it a matter of months or a matter of years? How much followup research and testing before you kind of knew this? Phillip Furman: 4:07Well, it really is a matter of years. I mean from time of discovery to getting it to the market takes roughly 12 to 18 years. Richard Miles: 4:15Wow. Phillip Furman: 4:16Now you really don’t know how effective a drug is going to be until you test it in humans for the very first time. And that can take from time of discovery to actually, first in humans, maybe five years. Richard Miles: 4:31Cause you start out with animals first. Right? Phillip Furman: 4:34Well, if you’re looking at efficacy, it depends on whether or not there is an animal model available to test its efficacy . If not, well, then you’ve got to, and of course you do any way to get a drug approved, show primarily that it is safe. That is the main criteria that the FDA is looking for, that the drug is safe. And there’s a lot of tests that go on between the discovery and putting it into humans to show that it’s safe, both in vitro or in cell culture essays to show that it’s not toxic to cells all the way to animals and doing in vivo toxicology studies. Richard Miles: 5:16So after you’ve completed animal trials, of course, the next big thing is to start conducting human trials, which I understand is one, very expensive, right? Phillip Furman: 5:24It is. Richard Miles: 5:25And then two, fairly lengthy because you have to have, I presume a big enough sample size, which requires drawing in appropriate humans to do the study, make sure that you’re demographically balanced, et cetera, et cetera. And then of course there’s a safety angle, right? It’s not going to let you do this and start experimenting in humans with experimental drug, unless you’ve given them some assurances that this is not going to kill people, right? Phillip Furman: 5:48That’s correct. The first studies in humans are a short trial with a small population of volunteers. Richard Miles: 5:54And how small roughly are we talking about maybe? Phillip Furman: 5:57Um, 50 to 100. And what they do is they agree to take the drug for a certain amount of time and then are followed by physicians to look for any adverse reaction to the drug. And that’s called the phase one study. Richard Miles: 6:13And that can take a couple years? Phillip Furman: 6:15No, that can take a year. Now the phase one study is primarily to show safety. Richard Miles: 6:23Okay. No negative effects. So you’re not even looking to see does the drug work, does it not harm people? Phillip Furman: 6:30Now, that has changed a little bit in that the human volunteers can also be people who are infected with the virus. And that’s what was done with AZT. That’s what was done with drugs for hepatitis B and hepatitis C. The investigators were able to do these short term studies to show safety, but they were able to do them in volunteers who were infected with the virus. So they got a quick handle on whether or not there was any efficacy for the drug. Richard Miles: 7:01I see. So it’s beneficial, I guess, from both sides, right? Because from the investigator side, you now get to jump to, I’m actually treating someone who has this condition. And from the patient side, they’re getting access to potentially a lifesaving drug, presumably a lot earlier than they might. Phillip Furman: 7:18Not really, no. You still have to follow the protocol that the FDA requires. And that is to do the phase one study, which is primarily a safety study. Then if you show safety, you can go to phase two, which is where the bigger population of patients. And those are generally patients who are infected by the virus. So that’s really your first real look at efficacy. The phase one study that’s done in human volunteers shows you some efficacy. It helps you to determine what dose you might want to use in your next studies Richard Miles: 7:57In phase two studies. How many people does that involve? Phillip Furman: 8:01Oh geez, that’s several hundred. Richard Miles: 8:03Several hundred. Okay . And they have to be presumably recruited and screened so that, you know, you’re going to get some pretty representative results . Phillip Furman: 8:11That’s right, that’s right. Richard Miles: 8:12Those take several years or how long did this take? Phillip Furman: 8:15The study probably will go on six months to a year. A lot of it depends upon what the FDA is going to require. After the phase one study, you meet with the FDA with a proposal for phase two and they can have you adjust your study , uh , according to what they want to see. Richard Miles: 8:33Let’s talk about efficacy. How does the world look different now for someone with HIV or hepatitis B or C with the development of these antiviral drugs? What was it before in terms of quality of life, life expectancy, that sort of thing. And what does it look like now? Phillip Furman: 8:47Well, for any of these chronic infections, we won’t talk about herpes because that’s really, although it’s a chronic infection wasn’t necessarily life threatening, but with HIV, it progressed dramatically from AZT to other drugs and combinations of drugs with AZT, there was some efficacy involved, but it wasn’t perfect. It wasn’t the best. And we knew that from the start, that AZT would be well, if you will, the breakthrough to show that you can treat HIV much, like you treat heart conditions, diabetes, cancer, as a chronic disease, it wouldn’t be a cure, but you could hopefully extend the life expectancy of the patients. There was some positive effects with AZT , but as I said, it wasn’t the best, but it opened the door to other pharmaceutical companies to come in and develop other drugs. And some of these drugs were put into combination with AZT. And now the life expectancy with the new drugs that have come out, people can live a normal life. Richard Miles: 9:53Wow. That’s stunning. Really. I mean, if you think about HIV/AIDS was I guess, first discovered in the eighties, right? Phillip Furman: 9:59Yes. Richard Miles: 9:59And at that time effectively was a death sentence, right? Phillip Furman: 10:02Yeah, it was. Richard Miles: 10:02It was basically some matter of time. And now, like you said, it’s in the same category as having heart disease or kidney disease or something that it’s a serious condition, but yet it can be managed effectively. In combination with these drugs. Phillip Furman: 10:16Now hepatitis C on the other hand is totally different. It is a chronic disease, but it’s curable. And the work that we did at Pharmaset, the discovery is Sofosbuvir showed that you can cure hepatitis C patients up to 99% of them, as opposed to the combination of Interferon and Ribavirin, which was able to cure maybe at the most 50% of the patients that were treated. A lot of them failed. A lot of them quit because the Interferon / Ribavirin in combination was actually like having the flu for as long as you were on the combination, people were just miserable. Richard Miles: 10:58Right, right. And taking it, it’s a bit of a double edged sword when you have these incredible breakthroughs, like with HIV and AZT, do people begin to think that this is an easier process than it actually is because on hand, people say, well, look, once we throw enough money at this, then boom, we come up with a pretty good solution or does it spur maybe more funding, more research, more resources devoted to other diseases? Sometimes success is more problematic than failure, right? It brings new problems that you didn’t even think of before has that also to some extent happened in the drug discovery world? Phillip Furman: 11:33Oh absolutely, I will refer back to Acyclovir. Prior to the discovery of Acyclovir, there was very little work going on in antivirals. The focus of antiviral drug discovery from 1960s forward to Acyclovir was minimal. Few companies were dabbling in. It all focused on herpes viruses and the drugs that they were coming up with all came from anticancer programs. So they were very toxic and could not be used systemically, but Acyclovir was really the game changer because, it was found to be not only specific for herpes virus, but very selective in that it was relatively nontoxic. And so it was consequently the first approved antiviral for herpes or antiviral drug that could be used systemically. Richard Miles: 12:27Wow. Phillip Furman: 12:27The others were all used topically. Richard Miles: 12:28So Phillip, you’re uniquely, I think qualified to sort of look at the whole drug discovery process from the beginning to a successful conclusion. And this is something that constantly has the attention of politicians and society at large healthcare , particularly diseases. Are there things that from a policy perspective, say the government or even private foundations when they make their decisions about how to spend money, are there changes in that process? Again, starting out with the researcher, the investigator through to getting the drug or the treatment on market that government should be doing, whether it’s national state local, or that foundations that support research should be doing that would make this process easier, that isn’t getting attention? Only easy questions on this show Phillip, we don’t go for hard ones. Or if you want to focus on any one segment of that, is there a policy change that would make some of this a little bit easier and faster? Phillip Furman: 13:22Well, there was a policy change in the FDA that occurred because of the approval of AZT and what it allowed the FDA to do was to approve certain drugs for diseases that were serious diseases, basically like AZT where the outcome was obviously you are going to die, right? And the approval of AZT did help the speed up the approval process in that the FDA shortened, the approval process for drugs that met an unmet medical need. And that was for patients who were dying from a disease, that there was no drug available. And so they actually changed the regulations so that in situations where there is an unmet medical need and it was life threatening, that they would allow drugs to be approved more rapidly with less data. Richard Miles: 14:22Okay. So if you were to compare this, to say some new drug or procedure that aided in heart disease, the FDA could say, well, look, there are other available treatments for heart disease. So we need to go slower on this. Cause we’re not sure if it’s better, et cetera, et cetera. But in this case in HIV, there was no alternate treatment, Phillip Furman: 14:38That’s absolutely right. Richard Miles: 14:39And people are dying l eft a nd right. So i n those cases, that’s a pretty solid contribution I think, as a lay person, what I would hear and continue to hear to some extent i s t hat, well, gosh, if only the FDA, w e’re not as slow, we’re more efficient t han we’d have more of these drugs on the market. And it sounds like the development of A ZT in particular helped shorten that cycle for those cases, in which, Phillip Furman: 15:00There was an unmet medical need. Richard Miles: 15:03Right, there’s no other option on the table. Phillip let’s talk about you for a little bit. And like a lot of people in Florida, you’re from New York. You’re not from Florida lets put it that way, you came to Florida as a teenager to Tarpon Springs. Phillip Furman: 15:16That’s correct. Richard Miles: 15:17So what was that like? Was that a bit of a culture shock? Phillip Furman: 15:19Oh it was. Richard Miles: 15:20To come down to Tarpon Springs, first of all, why did you move? Did your parents get a new job down here? Phillip Furman: 15:25My dad took a job that required him to travel. He worked for a refrigeration company and he was given the state of Florida, Georgia and, Richard Miles: 15:36Kind of as his territory? Phillip Furman: 15:37Yeah. It was his territory. And so felt that moving to Florida and centralizing in Florida would be the thing to do. Richard Miles: 15:46And so you were kind of drawn to science at an early age, right? I mean you fairly were a good student. Is there a particular teacher or class in particular where you thought this is great? I love this. Phillip Furman: 15:56Well, yes. I mean, when you said that I was drawn at an early age, I was, probably about eight years old. My uncle gave me a microscope. That was his, when he was a kid. And I was just absolutely fascinated with what you could see with a microscope. Richard Miles: 16:12Do you remember some of the first things that you would try putting in the , Phillip Furman: 16:15Just water from, out in the driveway or leaves or onion skins? Oh , you know, a lot of the same things that most people would probably look at, but it opened a whole new world for me. And then, well then after that probably a year or two later, my folks gave me a chemistry set. One of those big Gilbert chemistry sets. If you ever seen one of those. And I would work in the garage in the summertime with that chemistry set, there was a bench out there and I’d have that set up in the winter when it was snowing, I would go down in the basement and there was a work bench there that I put it up . Richard Miles: 16:51Were your parents ever worried about the garage blowing up? Phillip Furman: 16:53No, no. Richard Miles: 16:53So between the microscope and the chemistry set, Phillip Furman: 16:59That got me. Richard Miles: 17:00That got you, kind of hooked. Phillip Furman: 17:01I think there was always interested in exploring. And I think that opened up the whole idea of wanting to discover things, because the next thing, when I was 12 years old, my dad came home. He was taking flying lessons at the airport up in New York. And he came home and said that some people found arrowheads down along the river bank there where they plowed the fields, plant corn right next to the airport. Oh boy, I want to do that. So I went down and I actually , uh , been interested in archeology ever since and have done site surveys for the state of North Carolina. Richard Miles: 17:41Oh wow, okay . This is more than just a hobby? Phillip Furman: 17:43I was living in North Carolina. Well, I thought about that as a career, but I enjoy this too much. This is too much like fun. This is my relaxation. Richard Miles: 17:51Ok right, you didn’t want to make it, you didn’t want to ruin it by making it work. Phillip Furman: 17:55But getting back to the question of who, when I was in college, I took a microbiology course and became very interested in microbiology. And I happened to be myself and my suite mate. I happened to be very fortunate to have a very good relationship with the chairman of the department. And he kind of took us under our wing and under his wing, sorry, he kind of pushed me towards medical microbiology. I thought that’s what I wanted to be. It was a medical microbiologist and working in the hospital laboratory and doing, Richard Miles: 18:32And that was here at University of South Florida, right? Phillip Furman: 18:34No, this was at Piedmont College. Yeah. Where I got my bachelor’s , but then when I graduated, I thought, you know, I really probably need more education and I should probably get a master’s . And so I applied to USF and got into the master’s program and was very fortunate again, to have another tremendous mentor , uh , Dr. John Betts , who passed away a few years ago. And I did my dissertation research with him and it was amazing. I mean, I worked on a phenomenon called the auto plaque phenomenon. This particular type of bacteria kind of kills itself. And we tried to figure out why I did all sorts of experiments, played around with bacteria phage, which is a bacteria virus that infects bacteria and kills them and did a lot of work on electron microscope. And I thought , wow, this is terrific. And so when I finished up everything, I went and talked to him about what I ought to do for a career. Should I do anything more? And he said, you should go on and get your PhD. I said, well, I’d like to do the same things I’m doing with you. And he says , no, you ought to consider animal viruses their up and coming thing. And that was actually back in 1970. So animal viruses were beginning to become very popular to work with. And so I went on to Tulane and got my PhD in microbiology with an emphasis in virology. Richard Miles: 20:07That’s a perfect segue into my next question, in which I imagine now roles are reversed in which you have graduate students coming to you, or you have other people maybe in the industry coming to you, seeking advice, if you could meet your 21 or 22 year old self, or maybe 21 or 22 year olds seek your advice, what sort of advice do you generally give them? And then I guess I’ll tack on one question. What sort of questions do you normally get? Are they all sort of very specific? Do I go to this program or that program? Are they more general? Like what do I do as a career type of questions? Phillip Furman: 20:38I think it’s more, what should I do for a career? Basically tell them to follow their heart. What did they love? And once they find what they’re looking for to not just focus on that one specific thing. You know, don’t focus in on virology, learn everything that you possibly can. If it includes other disciplines, learn that you’re bound to find something in a totally different discipline that might be applied to what you are really interested in focusing on. And then I would probably tell them as Jim Valvano, the basketball coach that died of cancer, who was a coach at North Carolina State University, don’t give up, don’t ever give up. One last thing is with regard to their own personal research as to keep an open mind, follow the data, that negative results to give you as much information as a positive result. Well, that is all great advice. I think you need to write a book or something about something you said jumped out at me and something I’ve heard from a lot of inventors and that is while you’re focused on one area, nevertheless, bring in insights from other disciplines or other areas because that’s, I think truly where the invention part happens, right? Because if you’re just staring at your data all day long, that’s all you see. But if you’re able to bring in other models, other paradigms from totally different fields or dissimilar fields, that’s often where you’re able to now look at the same data and just come away with different conclusions or insights . I’ve heard that from a lot of inventors. I’m guessing there’s something there. I think there is. Richard Miles: 22:18I think there’s something there. Thank you very much for being on this episode of Radio Cade, I neglected to mention we’re recording this and the Palatial Studios of University of South Florida in Tampa with the assistance of the Ford Inventors Hall of Fame with whom the Cade Museum has a partnership. So we’re very happy that USF and Ford Inventors Hall of fame connection and Phillip thank you very much for being on the show. Phillip Furman: 22:38Thank you. Outro: 22:40Radio Cade would like to thank the following people for their help and support Liz Gist of the Cade Museum for coordinating and vendor interviews. Bob McPeak of Heartwood Soundstage in downtown Gainesville, Florida for recording, editing and production of the podcasts and music theme, Tracy Collins for the composition and performance of the Radio Cade theme song, featuring violinist, Jacob Lawson and special thanks to the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention located in Gainesville, Florida.

Hello, everyone, Joy, and Jason is back. It has been a minute. But we are here to talk about the bullet train. Yes, I know it's a bit strange, but a bullet train as in, you know, where are you currently in your life? And are you going to stop at garbage'ville or is it going to be like a smooth sell to you? Hi there. My name is Nicholson. I'm an entrepreneur, digital marketer, coach, and mentor. I've been diving in deep for the last year to discover what it takes to become a successful entrepreneur, not just the fluff that you see on the outside when you see people that are already successful, but what it takes behind the scenes to become successful. What I have discovered was mind-blowing, millionaires think differently. They have unique habits, focus, discipline, and so much more. Follow along in this podcast, I'll be sharing my journey, the journey of other entrepreneurs, what makes them successful, but most importantly, how it can help you to become successful.01:07Let's do this. Oh boy coming to you live from garbage'ville. Never let's do this smooth sailing ball alright.01:18Let's dive into this. So I and Jason was debating about what are we actually talking about today because we have a lot of topics but sometimes we really want to make sure that it's where people are currently in their lives we try to make sure that it's at least in line with what people are experiencing as much as possible. And there's a lot of stress and uncertainty going on today. And you know, in the world that we are in today, and it doesn't help you know, and like Jason was saying like you it's uncovering your weak and your strong points right. And yeah,you want to explain a little bit, please.01:53Well, first off, it has been a minute so I Joy how are you doing? Hi everybody out there, hoping everybody's doing well. It has been crazy around here lately. For those of you that haven't caught any previous episodes, I'm coming to you from the States. And it is madness over here. We seem to be the best in the world at being the shittiest right now. And so that's the train that I'm kind of riding. Nice. The garbage will train.02:24The garbage will train. I'm telling you, we're full speed ahead over here. Yeah, so, you know, like Joy said, we come up with these topics to talk about. And sometimes you just have to talk about, you know, what you feel is right, and what's going on right now, and just start there. And so, as Joy mentioned, you know, it's a stressful time out there, you know, particularly with the Coronavirus, so whether you're in a country that is in the thick of it, or it's coming back, or you're in a country like Joy that they've been doing really well and it's kind of subsiding. It doesn't take long for you to turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper and see what's going on around the world and it's a scary time right now. And the thing is, all of us, we are interconnected with one another and with the universe, and that's pretty deep, but it is super important. Okay, why? Yeah, stress and uncertainty really have a magnificent way of uncovering our weak points and strong points of where we are currently in our lives. So like right now is an extremely stressful time. Take a look at what's going on that's really going on really well in your life right now, and what's not going so well, and you can guarantee that this is where you would have been in a normal situation, five to 10 years from now. It's just this scary time and uncertainty is really put you on a bullet train and fast-forwarded your life and giving you a glimpse of where you would have been five to 10 years from now, which gives you an opportunity to make things happen now, kinda like, hey, welcome to the future, here's what your life would have looked like, what are we going to do now to put you on the better train?04:16So do you think because people have been in lockdown, and I've been forced to deal because that's really what it is forced to deal with the situations at the end forced to like, think about things that I would not have thought about in 10 years, or five years, whatever? Do you think that is the thing that is putting people on this train? Because I mean, I've heard of so many people that are getting divorced, and so many people that you know, it's just like, it's family things that have just gone down the tubes and things where they thought it's like, oh, I'm actually in a good marriage, but meanwhile, they're getting divorced. Or my kids are actually doing pretty well. My kids are happy but then the kids actually turn out to not be happy, you know, little things like that. Do you think it's because we are just brushing it to a side and not dealing with it?04:59Yeah, of course, I mean, wisdom how do you know a leader as a great leader? Not when they're leading in times of amazingness? No, you're not looking to someone for help. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Great leaders make certainty out of uncertain times, right? These are uncertain times, place yourself in this uncertain time. What are you doing well, who is looking up to you? What are they looking up to you for? Who's looking at you going dude, you're on a bullet train to garbage will. Do you know what I mean? Take a look right now, at your strengths and weaknesses. They're more prevalent today, right now than they have ever been. Yeah. And which gives us an opportunity to say hey, what do I have to work on and be ready for the next wave of whatever comes along in our life? Do you know what I mean? Now's the time.05:59Is there like a framework to look into their strengths and weaknesses as a person? Like is there like something that you can just you know, like work or like a framework or a point system or something? You don't need no. Just asking. No, no, I get it. No, no, no, you know, where you suck. But sometimes people know where they suck, but they are too proud to admit where they suck.06:29If you know that, Jesus then goes to a car on the shit train, where there's nobody and start drawing it out. Work it out for yourself, pick up your? Goggles. We haven't had them in a while.06:52Yes, and I've got one too. Jason is very proud of me. We actually did an episode on journaling, like three-four episodes ago, and I also have a general so see I've also been doing it so07:03It works. I can say that much it does work, it works. It's an opportunity for you to not have to go to anybody else on the train. Like I don't have to come to sit in Joy's seat and poke around the shoulder and go, hey, am I sucking, do I suck? And Joy's not going to tell me because she's thinking, well, I know he sucks but I suck too. It's an opportunity for you to go sit by yourself open up your journal and write down here's where I know I suck. And it needs some questions to ask yourself in your journal to find out what train you're on because you're not quite sure we can give you those for sure. But this is a great place to start. This is also a great time that you might have some time on your hands more than you normally would. To start putting some plans in place. Start taking some action. We have done episodes on this before. This is nothing new. The world might be a little bit scarier than it was a few weeks ago. Which is all the more reason to watch these videos that we do listen to what we're saying, get off the shit train?08:20Yeah, you can get on touch make sure that you don't miss any of these episodes because they're good. It's a good value. And we've had quite a few comments of people just saying like this episode really changed my life. Thank you. So just guys, it's like it is value Jason no one is talking about.08:36Okay. Sorry, if you're not sure what if you're really really truly not sure what train you're on? You give me a call I will get your ticket. I'll tell you exactly where your next stop is. And be crystal clear and honest so will Joy. We met each other on the shit train. We were passengers together. That is actually very true. We have the same ticket, this train headed to you here about where we're going it sucks let's get off here. Should I do a better train?09:19What exactly we did and it's a decision that you have to make and this is the thing it's not going to be one of those things it's like yeah, okay I'm on this journey actually sticks it's not really working for me and you know, I've got some issues and so many this and so many that I just don't know if I can deal with this. That is all a form of procrastination. And you just honestly scared to change you are fearing the step the stepping stone and I mean, I've been there, you know, I'm not judging in any way shape or form because I was that person. And I can say firsthand, and I'm sure Jason can do the same like that stepping stone is scary, but it is worth it. And once you get off, you know once that train is getting into garbage will you decide no, no, no, no, no, let's get off before it hits, you know, garbage will, it really makes a massive difference in your life change so much. I mean, like, and Jason, I had so many issues with journaling. I didn't want to journal. Because I know myself and I even said to him before we started recording this. It hasn't been that fun journaling, because it hasn't, you know, I had to deal with unresolved issues of things that 10 years ago, 15 years ago, which I've been dealing with in my journal, so I'm not telling the world about my issues. I'm not dealing, I'm not sharing it with any other person. I'm just sharing it with my journal. And I have uncovered things about myself that I didn't even realize was a problem. And therefore you grow because you actually become better. You know, so.10:45And again, all valid points but understand no matter what train you decide to get on, yeah, the train will have curves and turns and it will go up and it will go down. But the destination, that's up to you. Yeah, that's up to you anticipate turns and curves and ups and downs and changes in elevation. Yeah. But where you're going to stop that? What ticket do you buy? That's up to you. And now more than ever, you know what train you're on. And again, as I said, if you don't call us, we'll read your ticket for you. We'll let you know where you're headed.11:29Because, yeah, yeah, direct inbox that's for sure. Okay, so so journaling is one thing that can help us to just uncover our weak points and our strong points, right, because, I mean, firstly, that really helped me a lot and okay, so we're stressing with stress and uncertainty we've mentioned this at the beginning of this episode. So Jase what is that thing that can help you except for the journaling part what can help you with the uncertainty, the uncertainty because obviously it journaling is a big part of the stress thing that can help you to sort that out. But that's not enough. What else can we help you know, that give people to help them with that stress and uncertainty in the current times?12:06I mean, you there are besides like, okay, well I can go out and do my breathing exercises or, or what have you and these little things to keep the moment or clear your head at the moment. It's about being centered with yourself. So you can be honest with yourself at all times. Yeah. And we've gone over a lot of these things before. And it's not only journaling is paying attention to how we talk to ourselves. It's getting ourselves into a state of mind on a daily basis. We're always doing a self-audit, and always looking at our ticket and seeing where we're heading. And all kinds of things we can do. There in every episode that joy and I talked about and these episodes, we come up with an idea of what we want to talk about but largely it comes from who we are inside and our personal experiences. We don't read a story about someone and go hey, look at this guy. Look at this guy. Let's talk about him. You know this stuff comes from us. Yeah. And so it's getting yourself centered with you your relationship with you. If it's not centered by default your relationship with anybody else or anything else on this planet cannot be centered. That needs to be taken care of first.13:31Okay, so let's this I don't want to talk about like divorce as being the thing but it's just like so common because seriously, there's been so many people that have rocky relationships. Now with you guys still being on lockdown luckily, we're in New Zealand we are out of it now. But it really takes a toll on relationships. And I'm not just saying divorce. I'm talking like parents with their children. I mean, even for me, I had some issues with my kids. And it's not because there were really issues it's just behavioral issues because things come out. You know, you're getting frustrating being in each other's space the whole time and being in lockdown and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like having a relationship and having issues with either your spouse or your children, or one of those, do you have any advice for people? How did I deal with that uncertainty because that is quiet that is hard for a lot of people, right? Because it's not something that you're used to doing.14:19When it comes to your personal relationships with your children or your spouse, your significant other, whatever it is, what a great time to start really understanding what's going on. It's much more than just been around this person for so long, it's just getting annoying. It's not that there are there's something going on that is making you feel that way and you are now succumbing to those feelings of he sucks I see it now. It's not that and this goes back to where I said this time of uncertainty, especially if you're getting stuck with one person or another, you're getting a glimpse of to where you were headed. Five to 10 years from now in your relationship more, more often than not. Either you're, you know, your basic human needs that we all have there's five or six of them, maybe you're starting to realize that, where you place your top two are not the same as your partners. I mean they're not there, this was going to fall apart anyway. But now we have an opportunity to see where we were headed relationship garbage'ville and we have an opportunity to check now say, how can we figure this out rather than just say, I knew you were always shit.15:52I knew it. And God sent us this disease to show me that you're garbage. Now's the time we can fix things with our children, with our spouses with our loved ones, people that we are now being forced to spend more time with than we normally would have it's a great opportunity to try to say, let's see if we can get out on a different train together.16:18So what if you're in a family situation? And  I'm just thinking, like the majority of people out there that could have potentially this problem? How do you deal with that? Like, do you have family gatherings? Do you just hit on, you know, like, because you can't just say like, okay, honey, we're having issues let go out for dinner and talk about it with the kids being around because you can't go out for dinner right. I am laughing about it, but I'm just thinking of the situation. So how do you actually how do you do that then?16:48Joanna and I fought for some time when we met each other we've now decided, no, I can't. That's not how we can go. Do you know what I mean? I would first start, you know if it's a whole family dynamic that seems to be crumbling. Again, I would really go back to the basic human needs that we all need as people and we find a way to make it happen and I would go through each one of those, each of those. Can you name them? Basic human needs go through those, talk about it with somebody who knows what they're talking about. And look at how you are satisfying those basic human needs. And that gives you amazing insight into why you might be clashing. And then once you understand how to do that you do it for the kids. Yeah. And now once we all understand our basic human needs and how we're satisfying those needs, now we can look at our interrelationships with each other. I'm not getting along with my son in this area. I understand why because he really values he values being, you know when kids are growing up, they want to be what is it different from everybody I want to stand out, and I want to grow up and I want to be an adult, you know what I mean? This is how he is prioritizing some of his needs, where mine is, I'd like to just be quiet. And you know what I mean and just let things be and not rock the boat. And I like certainty. That's very different from a child that is growing up and when you can understand that dynamic and that push, now you can understand how to work with your work with each other a little bit and better understand each other. And now it can happen with everybody in the family.18:47I'm trying to say this in Afrikaans, the five basic human needs. I know we  mentioned them before but can we just mention them in this episode? Yeah. Let's, I'm gonna have to write them down because I don't always keep the names right in my head. Number one would be a certainty. Yeah. And uncertainty. Yes.19:17We have the need to feel loved opposite of that will love being different, opposite of that we have the need to feel well, love would not be different. Loved, the opposite of love would be the need to be different.  This is what separates me from everybody else.  Your fifth human need would be giving back to others.19:57And finally, would be growth, how am I growing? We all feel the need to grow every single day in some sort of way. Right? If we're not doing that we're dying. Oh, yeah, we are actually designed to grow.20:15So you know, again, certainty, the need to have a regimented something, I need to know that these things are going to happen every single day. And I mean, opposite of that uncertainty. I need some sort of action, some sort of adventure in my life, something that's different from the norm. Right. Yeah. To be loved, I need to know that I'm accepted as a whole, by the group, by the family or by the people at work or whatever it is. Yeah. The difference I need to know that I'm different from everybody else. Yeah. I need to know that people love me for a different reason then they love everybody else. And I just needed to be a part of it. Yeah, exactly.21:04The opposite of each other. Yeah. Right. I need you to need to be able to give back. A person cannot be healthy and grow,if they're not feeling that as they go along in life, they can help people inherently love to help. They want to help. It's part of our DNA. It's how we survived as a species. We're not doing that in some sort of away, you may not know it, you're dying inside, and then growing as a person. These are basic human needs. And if your top two are not the same as somebody else's top two, it's not a bad thing. But there is going to be some of this going on. Yeah. A lot of times when there's this going on. Now we've given up on each other because we don't understand our basic human needs and we go to a therapist and if they don't understand and they're just reading it to you out of the book. And they're giving you the textbook answer, you're gonna walk out of there and you'll be even more confused. And that's why they say therapy is sometimes a place where relationships go to die. I love you all therapists. I do, but it doesn't work for each and every person. It's the truth. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. That's basically the gist of it. But yeah, so that's important. It is it's very important. That's good stuff.22:33I think that this is an episode because we do try to keep them under half an hour, which I'm not sure how long this man has been going. But it is good to you know, to understand and know that if you're not on the right train, to get on the right train, or if you're on this train, don't get off on garbage'ville, but get off at what we call it Pleasantville or what was it? I forgot. Kickass Ville. I don't even think we named it.22:57Whatever you want to call it, but get off at the right stop. That actually is going to help you as a person. And if you feel like you're on the path with somebody in your life, your significant other, then they're not on the same level as you I'm all about not giving up and, you know, fight for, because there's something that made you guys become a couple right and I'm gonna do you know, a couples therapist or any of those things, but I'm just, it's just so sad to see couples that are over things that like Jason said, would have happened in 10 years time, you know, obviously, this time of dispute speed things up. But I guess the biggest thing there and this is me, again, I'm not a therapist but by just looking from the outside in. Just talk to people, you know, talk to the people around you, and not just now you're forced to talk to people. If it was worth falling in love it's worth taking a look at each other's ticket. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah, you said it perfectly. So yeah. All right. That's it. Anything else you want to add to this episode Jase?24:00No, you know what, it's great to see everybody again. Well, I can't see you. I hope we get to that point soon where we can kind of do live, but great to catch up with you guys again and look forward to the next one. Thank you, Joy. Thank you, Jase. And yeah, we will be back again next week with another awesome episode. Be safe everybody. Bye

Jeremiah 1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”Joshua 1:9Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.Ephesians 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.Luke 12:7Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows.Isaiah 41:10Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.Zephaniah 3:17The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.Philippians 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,Ephesians 2:22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.1 Corinthians 12:27Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.Psalm 27:10For my father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord will take me in1 Peter 5:6-7Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.Ephesians 2:19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,Ephesians 1:3-6Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,Romans 5:8But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Philippians 4:13I can do all things through him who strengthens me.Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,Romans 8:31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Isaiah 43:4Because you are precious in my eyes, and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you, peoples in exchange for your life.Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.Acts 1:8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”Psalm 139:1-24To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...1 John 4:10In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.1 John 3:1See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.1 Peter 5:6-76 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, Casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.2 Thessalonians 3:3But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.Philippians 4:19And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.1 Corinthians 15:57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.Romans 8:38-39For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Romans 8:28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.1 Peter 2:9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.2 Timothy 1:7For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.2 Corinthians 5:21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.1 Corinthians 6:19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,Romans 8:37-39No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.Matthew 5:14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.Isaiah 53:5But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.Psalm 86:15But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.Deuteronomy 7:9Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,Revelation 3:20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.1 John 4:16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.John 1:12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,Luke 1:37For nothing will be impossible with God.”Isaiah 26:3You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you.Psalm 138:3On the day I called, you answered me; my strength of soul you increased.Psalm 136:26Give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures forever.Exodus 15:2The Lord is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.1 John 3:1-3See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.2 Peter 1:3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,Colossians 3:12Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,Ephesians 6:10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.Ephesians 5:8For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of lightEphesians 4:24And to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness John 15:15No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.Isaiah 12:2“Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the Lord God is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation.”Proverbs 3:5-6Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.Psalm 118:6The Lord is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?Deuteronomy 31:6Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake youRevelation 21:3-4And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”The Lord bless you(A)‘and keep you;(B)25 the Lord make his face shine on you(C)and be gracious to you;(D)26 the Lord turn his face(E) toward youand give you peace.asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe.6 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.I pray that you would be surrounded by and filled with and located in and anchored to our Savior Jesus Christ Christ above you that you may walk in wisdom and rest in his love. Christ below you that you may never stumble or fall Christ on your right in your strength Christ on your left and your weakness Christ going before you to prepare the way for you And Christ walking behind you to clean up all your messes. Christ within you filling you to overflowing today, tomorrow and forever AMEN.

After talking with Selwyn Jones, the uncle of George Floyd, Coach Coolidge reflects on this Christian podcast about the past, present and future. Join Coach Coolidge in this effort to BYB - Be Your Best - as we all work together to make the world a better place. Hear the following readings and how they can help you inspire your desire to reach the ultimate destination...Heaven:Philippians 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.2 Corinthians 4:16So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.2 Timothy 1:7 For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.and,Philippians 3:13-14 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Please note: The number of COVID-19 cases and the situation referenced in this episode were based on reported data at the time of the interview and are subject to change.TranscriptionAlex Gorsky 0:03As we announced in late March, our goal is to be able to do this in a safe and effective way and have more than a billion vaccines by the end of 2021. We're working with regulators in the United States and around the world. We're partnering with other companies, particularly manufacturing facilities to be able to scale up so that we can produce here in the United States, but also around the globe. And that we would be doing all of this on a not-for-profit basis.Gary Bisbee 0:29That was Alex Gorsky, Chairman and CEO, Johnson and Johnson, on J&J's goal to produce 1 billion doses of coronavirus vaccine by the end of 2021. And to do so on a not for profit basis. I'm Gary Bisbee. And this is Fireside Chat. The most important next step in the battle against coronavirus is the availability of a vaccine. Alex discusses the prospects in progress as of May 20, 2020. The day this conversation was recorded.Alex Gorsky 0:57For making good progress there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. Much more testing needs to be concluded. But every piece of data and new insights that we gather, I think, are giving us greater confidence that this is certainly something that is possible, and that we're going to do everything we can to make it happen.Gary Bisbee 1:14The vaccine update is all-important. And in addition, we went deep with Alex on a wide range of topics, including the development of medicines to treat COVID, lessons learned from J&J's global and resilient supply chain, the most important characteristics of a leader in a crisis, key questions the board should ask in a crisis like COVID-19, the resources and support J&J have devoted to frontline workers and the value of J&J's diversified business model. I'm delighted to welcome Alex Gorsky to the microphone.Good afternoon, Alex, and welcome.Alex Gorsky 1:53Hey, Gary, thank you very much for having me.Gary Bisbee 1:54Well, we're pleased to have you at this microphone. Let's lead off with the discussion of the all-important vaccine and everybody's talking about that. It was just recently front page on the Wall Street Journal and so on. Can you provide us with an update on the status of J&J's pursuit of the coronavirus vaccine, Alex?Alex Gorsky 2:14Sure, Gary. First of all, let me say it's a pleasure being here with you to have this discussion. Thank you and all the Academy is doing to continue to educate and inform stakeholders about these important issues. And I guess the way that I would start off there is, first of all, who would have thought, even two-three months ago, let alone two or three years ago or several decades ago, that we would be facing into likely one of the most challenging times in our country's history. Perhaps other than World War Two and a few others as we face and deal with the coronavirus. And I think by almost any measure, certainly in terms of human life, in terms of health, healthcare systems, our economy, and many other issues. It's challenging us in ways that we really haven't been challenged before. And what I would say is, many companies we were watching closely when some of the first news started to come out of Asia, very late in 2019 and early 2020. And when we first started getting the reports, our priority was to ensure the safety of our employees in the region, as well as to secure our ability to continue to serve customers, hospital systems, physicians, and consumers in their respective countries. And at the same time, it was about mid-January, when the scientists that worked in our vaccine group who have long been researching significantly in areas such as HIV, such as an ebola, and the Zika vaccines identified coming out of the healthcare system in China, the DNA sequencing of the coronavirus. And they quickly did some work and developed hypothesis that if we utilized our vaccine platform, combined with information regarding the virus itself, obtained from the gene sequencing, that we could in fact, have the potential to develop a vaccine that would develop neutralizing antibodies and would eventually work. And in a process that would usually take five to seven years, literally in five to seven weeks, they put together a plan that included the work that I just mentioned, and some early animal studies that indicated we had a strong likelihood of producing a safe and effective vaccine. But also one that could be produced at large scale. And so really, since then, the entire focus of our organization has been on doing just that. And as we announced in late March, our goal is to be able to do this in a safe and effective way and have more than a billion vaccines by the end of 2021. We're working with regulators in the United States and around the world. We're partnering with other companies, particularly manufacturing facilities to be able to scale up so that we can produce here in the United States, but also for around the globe. And that we would be doing all of this on a not for profit basis, given the significant challenge that the virus represents to the world, and we're making good progress. There's still a lot of work that needs to be done, much more testing needs to be concluded from every piece of data and new insights that we gather. But I think they're giving us greater confidence that this is certainly something that is possible, and that we're going to do everything we can to make happen.Gary Bisbee 5:50Well, that's our great news and congratulations on your efforts in this space. Could we dig into the timeframe a little bit more? You mentioned 2 billion doses by the end of '21. What does that suggest in terms of the approach to the FDA and clearance and so on? In other words, would it be cleared by the end of this year or by mid next year? What would the timeframe be?Alex Gorsky 6:17Well, there's still much more than we need to learn through the preclinical work, the clinical work as well as the scale-up in the manufacturing process work that we're doing. And what I can tell you is I've never seen in my more than 30-year career in the industry, the level of partnering not only between different companies but also between regulators, the FDA, organizations such as ARDA are responsible for vaccine oversight and the United States. The same agencies in Europe all understand the severity and the importance of this moment of trying to do everything possible to accelerate that process. However, to do it in a way that ensures safety, and that ensures a high level of quality in everything that we do. Now what that means for us technically is that we are working hand in hand with regulators trying to parallel pass certain processes, where we would ordinarily, for example, do certain testing procedures prior to starting our larger scale-up of capacity and manufacturing an actual product. We're going at risk and doing some of those things simultaneously. We're looking at what are the absolutely critical steps in the process, and what can be done by utilizing new types of data analytics, at times even utilizing data and information from other similar compounds to see what we can do to move the timelines up. Because all of us understand that if we let it run its full process this could take five or seven years. Which frankly would be unacceptable. At the same time, if something is going to be used, with literally billions of patients or around the world, we need to ensure that the risk-benefit equation is very strong and agreed upon by regulators and other interested parties around the world. We're working hard to be in humans by late August or early September. Again, we will be producing at risk by that time to be able to have sufficient quantities. And it's our expectation that as we work our way through the early part of 2021, that we could be at that time producing at a rate of hundreds of millions of vaccines. Our goal is to be at a position by the end of 2021. To be doing at the rate of a billion doses, we do want to ensure that there's broad Global Access that's affordable that it's accessible for everyone. And again, on a not for profit basis.Gary Bisbee 8:46Well, good luck. We're obviously all very enthusiastic about the work that you're doing. Why don't we turned to medicines or treatment options?Alex Gorsky 8:57The very good news here, Gary, is that while this is a difficult virus, and certainly one is presented a major challenge in terms of what should be the right approaches to treatment, and how can they rapidly help address the underlying pathophysiology and biology with the patient and the disease. Once someone is diagnosed, we have literally dozens and dozens of companies working on therapeutics, medicines, and vaccines. And I believe that literally 10s of billions of dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars have been invested in the biopharmaceutical industry over the past several decades, that have put us into a position where we are today to be able to make significant strides in relatively short order. While again, there are dozens of approaches being studied. I would say the two main are one - can we develop an antiviral? Or how do we better perhaps regulate the body's immune system either up-regulating it or downregulating it in certain cases, it needs to be expanded in other areas, it can actually overreact and result in challenges something called the cytokine cascade syndrome. And so by either taking these independent approaches or combined approaches, I believe most scientists would agree that in the coming months, we should be in a position where we have not only one but potentially several therapeutics available to treat patients who've been infected. As we all know vaccines take longer, but here too, I think we're going to have multiple approaches. We're going to have RNA, DNA, mRNA approaches, vector approaches as we have. And what I can tell you from the collaboration that I've seen, between the various pharmaceutical companies involved is that we don't see this as competing against each other. We see this as competition against COVID-19. And something that's so important for the world for humanity, that we've got to do everything possible to bring these kinds of solutions to patients.Gary Bisbee 11:26Well, we appreciate the leadership that you and J&J have shown, along with the other pharma companies. So again, our good wishes are with you. Why don't we turn Alex to the caregivers who have operated under a very stressful environment. And I know J&J has spent considerable resources developing expertise and workers and the stress that workers are under. Can you describe the programs where J&J is committed $50 million to supply frontline workers with PPE?Alex Gorsky 11:59Sure, we're very proud of the long tradition in history we have at J&J investing in our frontline health care workers. In fact, Johnson and Johnson is one of the first companies to support nurses in a significant way. And on a personal level, to me, that's very important. My wife and sister are both nurses. I have a niece who's literally a nurse manager at ground zero in one of the local areas that are significantly impacted by COVID-19. And there's always been a strong ethos at J&J. We certainly put a priority on bringing new technology to patients and healthcare systems, but nothing replaces the important care provided by those frontline workers, the nurses, the aides, the physicians, the EMTs, who are literally on those front lines every day and imagine those who were there today, often putting themselves at risk often having to improvise in a significant way due to the patient load they were facing at any one particular time. And it's been nothing less than a rollercoaster. What we've seen particularly in places like New York City, Northern New Jersey, Detroit, Michigan, New Orleans, where there have been really significant outbreaks, we've made a commitment actually to do over 250 million dollars of investment over a 10-year time frame. But then we've also got another 50 million, half of which has already been committed directly to the pandemic issue and we think that that's important that we're there showing our support of putting tangible programs and other investments in place, all in the spirit of trying to help them do their job that's ultimately going to help patients.Gary Bisbee 13:43You've also supported the Chan public health school at Harvard and thrive global for stress management resiliency program. Can you describe that for us, Alex?Alex Gorsky 13:53We're fortunate at Johnson and Johnson. That was actually one of my predecessors, Jim Burke. Dating back to the 1970s, really put a challenge on the company to say we not only want to have the best workforce, but we want to have a very healthy workforce as well. And recognizing the important role that healthcare for each of us and for our families plays, ultimately in helping to ensure that we can be our best every day that we can show up to not only do our job but to be our best and make a contribution to be able to take care of our families. It's essential that we take care of ourselves. And through the last several decades, we've been able to make a lot of progress in wellness prevention live for life energy programs, that all have the focus on saying, "How can we help people be at their very best physically, and ultimately, that manifests itself in things like productivity, but also levels of engagement, how they feel about the company, and frankly, how they're also able to engage with their broader community. Where they live and work and raise their families, whether they're online training programs, whether they're in person, classes that focus on things like diet, exercise, like sleep. And again, all with an emphasis on prevention and wellness is perhaps being some of the most important steps that we can take to maintaining our overall health. And that certainly applies to COVID-19. And through the years, we've taken these very same ideas and programs, and in many cases, we've worked with customers and other partners and help do a like a train the trainer of sorts where we have produced these programs in their institutions. And I must tell you, the feedback is great. I think if you look at some surveys among nurses and physicians and other health care providers, their own health and in making sure that they are getting the amount of rest that they need on a daily basis is a significant challenge and I think the feedback that we've gotten from many of our partners has been overwhelmingly positive. And it's another way that we can take what we do at Johnson and Johnson, partner with others, and hopefully have a positive impact on the entire healthcare system.Gary Bisbee 16:14Well, the Academy has worked with J&J on several of those programs. And we're definite fans. Alex, I know there's a number of other activities and programs that J&J has worked with the health systems. Many of our audience are health system executives. Can you just share with us a bit about other programs that J&J is working on during the crisis in particular?Alex Gorsky 16:42Sure, you know, what I think is exciting about the crisis and every crisis that brings forth an opportunity to work in new ways together, and very early on in the crisis. Partners came to us asking if we could help in areas such as for example, acquiring PPE. Our hospital group rallied very quickly worked with our internal teams that were where we use PPE extensively in many of our manufacturing and production facilities and worked with some of their suppliers to try to assess hospitals to get an adequate supply of mass gowns, gloves and other types of equipment. We did that to a significant degree. When it looked as though we're on the cusp of exceeding capacity for ventilators in this country, our engineers and one of our groups quickly went to work and came up with a way to almost double the output from ventilators by creating a splitter, a 3d printed splitter, that could be applied in the right circumstances to help maintain additional patients on those systems. So again, in a very hands-on patient facing away, but in other cases, who actually helped some of the large accounts with terms we tried to revise our contracts that were very customer friendly. Recognizing the challenges that they were facing. So those are just a few of the ways that we been trying to partner and we continue to do so today as many hospitals start to open up again for elective surgeries. They're having to consider what kind of changes do they need to make in their supply chain to ensure that they can ramp back up that during a period where they're likely to accelerate their number of elective surgeries that the supply chain stays robust, stays constant? How do they ensure that they can get their workers and technicians back into the operating room with the right kind of protection and equipment in place? So these are all areas that we think offer a significant opportunity to partner likely in new and unprecedented ways with inpatient and outpatient health care systems around the country and in fact around the globe?Gary Bisbee 18:45Well, it's much appreciated by the health systems. You bring up supply chain if we could turn to that for a moment. The supply chain for PPE has been, I think we would agree, unreliable. We've looked across the country and I know J&J has substantial experience in building a reliable global supply chain. What are the key success factors that health systems could learn from J&J in terms of a reliable supply chain?Alex Gorsky 19:13Well, look, I think we're all going to learn a lot of lessons in this process that will hopefully put us in a better position and prepare us for the future or in a significant way because chances are, this won't be the last pandemic that we face. There will be things in the future, that through better preparation, better planning, and better early execution, we can make an impact sooner in the course of the disease. A few things that we've always tried to focus on at Johnson and Johnson is ensuring that you've got the kind of resiliency and redundancy systems in place that enable you to handle certain surges. We've seen this to a significant degree. There are parts or products that were quickly taxes as hospitals and others. Systems ramped up, being able to quickly engage not only your own internal supply system but other external partners to help fill some of the gaps that can be created when you see that kind of surge is critically important. Having the kind of business continuity plans in place so that you know what the checklist is where you need to go, how can you quickly adapt things as simple as your purchasing order requirements and protocols to be able to rapidly seek and complete ordering in a very different kind of environment that many of us face. So those are things that we have done that we continue to do and that I think all of us are going to have to improve our systems going forward like that. The other big opportunity here, Gary is I think, technology innovation. I think we're finding that in many ways. Many of our systems are rather antiquated, and how can we apply some of the new technology and the new ways of looking at and using datasets to gather insights and to rapidly develop options for us in a much more integrated, digital and connected way.Gary Bisbee 21:13Well, there's a balance between the federal, state, and private sectors regarding PPE supply chain stockpiles and so on. How do you think about that, Alex?Alex Gorsky 21:22Well, look, I don't think anybody has the ability to do it alone. I think it's going to take a lot of public-private partnerships, there will be certain components of the supply chain healthcare system that should be more centralized or standardized or done at the federal level, just as you would expect us in a company like Johnson and Johnson to do. On the other hand, you want the right amount of agility, flexibility, accountability, and responsibility at the local level. so that people can respond based upon the unique needs of that particular unit or customer at any given time. So I think again, knowing what should be done for example, In the preparation stage around stockpiling, or clearly, the federal government could play an important role versus what are those unique hospital opportunities? Do we want to continue to support at the local level to ensure that we are matching real-time need, which real-time supply and not encumbering it with ultimately could be a kind of paralyzing bureaucracy or other impediments that would prevent a particular system from getting exactly what they need at a certain time?Gary Bisbee 22:36Let's turn to J&J's diversified business model. Can you describe the Johnson and Johnson business diversification for us, Alex? Particularly, what's the value how you see that contributing to Johnson & Johnson as a whole,Alex Gorsky 22:50Our diversified model is one that we believe is an essential component of our success. For well over 100 years and it's a choice on how we run our business for the long term. If you look over most measures of performance, over 50, over 25, or 15, over 10, 5 years, Johnson and Johnson has exceeded the performance of its peer group. And we think because we have a diversified bottle of a consumer group, pharmaceutical group, medical device group, that at various times in their life cycles have either outperformed or underperformed. It gives us the optionality to continue to perform even in a market like today where the medical device market is down significantly. And yet our pharmaceutical business and consumer businesses continue to do very well, even in this type of environment. We think that having that kind of breadth and depth across our different businesses, frankly also gives us a very unique insight into healthcare. We try to go where the best technology the best capabilities are, we are not relegated by only is this type of pharmaceutical product or this kind of device or this kind of consumer product. And I think it gives us the ability to leverage the spaces in between. In fact, right now we're working on a comprehensive program in our cancer group to say, "How can we prevent and cure and treat cancer much, much earlier in the process?" All too often we find cancer very late. And if we can find it, if we can diagnose it, identify it, and treat it much earlier in the process, the probability of success and have a better outcome goes up significantly. And it's only because we have such a diverse portfolio that we are positioned to do something like that. Again, we think that there's a number of advantages, but we also expect each one of our business units to compete within their particular vertical to be competitive in terms of their performance of their pipeline. Their cost structure. So it's something that we pay a lot of attention to. And again, we think it's a core strength of Johnson Johnson.Gary Bisbee 25:08As a CEO of a diversified company, what do you pay particular attention to, Alex?Alex Gorsky 25:15I think it's all about appropriately managing your portfolio. And we set consistent and strong goals in place that each one of our sectors and each business within each sector should strive to be number one or number two in their category. Because we know that when you've got that kind of critical mass, it gives you the ability to find better science, find better people, and frankly, reach more customers. We require those respective units to have strong pipelines for the future, are they investing with the long term in mind so that they can be competitive today, but also competitive and five months, five years, 10 years away? That's critical. Next, we look for ways for these businesses to be complimentary. With other businesses, is it something that would be a good match to either help them better serve a particular customer? Or is it something that can help us be more effective or efficient within a particular business? And of course, we require all of our businesses to be competitive to also have a strong business over time that they have a competitive p&l relative to benchmarks in their particular area. And it's one of our businesses that doesn't meet those criteria over time. Then, of course, we ask a question, is it the right fit for J&J, even though it could be a healthy and good business, perhaps it would be a better fit someplace else. So that we could continue to invest in other areas of perhaps greater unmet medical need, or that presents a greater growth opportunity. So it's an ongoing process, literally something that we do with our leaders monthly, that we do with our Executive Committee on an ongoing basis and all the way up to our board of directors, to make sure we're investing areas where number one, we think we can make the biggest difference with patients and consumers. And number two, where we can ultimately generate the best long term returns for our company to be able to continue to invest in for shareholders to realize an appropriate gain.Gary Bisbee 27:16So if I could follow up on the leadership question for a moment, what are the most important characteristics of a leader during a crisis, like this crisis?Alex Gorsky 27:25I think that there are so many characteristics of a leader that really have a light shine upon them during times like this. One is an ability to react quickly to a situation frequently, we can become so bogged down with bureaucracy, or having both the systems that are there often to protect this kind of takeover versus understanding that decisions need to be made in a very timely in a very agile and a very flexible way. The way that I frequently describe it is: the best leaders are those who know that when things slow down, they speed up. When things speed up too much, they slow things down. And I think having your hand on the rudder of the organization, so to speak, at all times, to know when to ramp up and ramp down to make the best decisions is critically important. The next thing for me, it's, it's about engagement and communication, people expect to be communicated with particularly in today's environment, and if you leave a vacuum void, unfortunately, negativity tends to fill in versus speaking in a very authentic adult way providing your team's your colleagues with the facts of the situation that as best you understand them and know them at the time and then providing them a clear path or roadwork ahead that acknowledges the challenges but also gives them a reason to believe in the future. So I think those elements I found to be important always in leadership, but particularly so during times of crisis.Gary Bisbee 29:04Turning from leadership to governance, you sit on several large company boards in addition to J&J. What are the key questions of board members should be asking in a crisis situation like this Alex?Alex Gorsky 29:17As both the Chairman of our board and also as a board member on IBM, I think the kinds of questions you need to be asking in times like this are, what are the risks that the company faces? What are they in by risk, in terms of business, financial, operational, execution, an employee at all levels, so that, again, plans can be not only put into place but reinforced were necessary to ultimately protect your stakeholders. The second thing that I think the boards should be asking is, look, what are the immediate, near term and long term challenges and opportunities that will evolve as a result of this particular situation. We all have to work simultaneously on the issue. But also be looking around the corner over the hill so that we have the right and appropriate balance between today, tomorrow, the next month, next year. The actions we're taking not only allow us to address today's issue but better position us for the future, as well. I think the other question that the board should be asking is, what are we doing to ensure the safety, the success, the resiliency, of our people in our teams. Times like this can be very, very trying. There's always going to be an issue or a situation that you're dealing with, but making sure that you're providing your employees the kind of support they need to work from home, to help manage their family issues as well as their work issues, how to take care of themselves, how to continue their own career development, even during times like this. More important than ever, because without the engagement, the support of your employees, you just can't be successful.Gary Bisbee 31:05Alex, this has been just a terrific interview. I have one additional question if I could, and that is that we're all talking about a new normal that we imagine will be coming. How do you think about a new normal? in particular? What would you like to see, change, or evolve in the future?Alex Gorsky 31:24I think out of every crisis, there comes an opportunity to rethink the way that we do everything. And I think coming out of this, a few changes that will actually be good for us as a society and as a country would be a reprioritization, of public health policy. And I think we clearly are gaining an understanding that without a strong public health policy and outcomes, we can't have a strong economy, we can't have strong security, we can't have a strong society. So making those appropriate investments and keeping them consistent going forward, I think is going to be more important than ever. The second thing is I think that we're going to only accelerate the uptake in technology across almost every aspect of healthcare and of our business, whether it's telemedicine, telehealth, whether it's the way that we think about doing medical education, and training and support, whether it's the way that we merge files and data sets to do better patient and virus tracking and understanding technology, data, AI, machine learning, connectivity, sensing will all be inherent in what we do. And I think the pace of that uptake will only increase in the coming months and years. And last but not least, I think we're going to perhaps rethink the working contract that employees have with large institutions and organizations. I think we're realizing here that there are some jobs and roles that need us to be there every day. There are others that can be done remotely. They frankly facilitate us to be more productive and more engaged. And so rethinking the standard roles and responsibilities that many of us have had in place for decades, in light of the way that we live, the way that we work today, I think will present a significant opportunity going forward as well. I consider myself a realistic optimist. And I think I am in this case, there's no doubt we still have a significant road ahead. There will be challenges along the way. But I do remain confident that on the other side of COVID-19, that we can be a stronger healthcare system. We can be stronger leaders, we can be a stronger country if we address these things in the right way.Gary Bisbee 33:45Alex, thanks again, just a terrific interview. We very much appreciate your time today.Alex Gorsky 33:51Thank you very much, Gary. Stay safe, stay healthy, and I look forward to talking again soon.Gary Bisbee 33:57This episode of Fireside Chat is produced by Strafire. Please subscribe to Fireside Chat on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening right now. Be sure to rate and review fireside chat so we can continue to explore key issues with innovative and dynamic healthcare leaders. In addition to subscribing and rating we have found that podcasts are known through word of mouth. We appreciate your spreading the word to friends or those who might be interested. Fireside Chat is brought to you from our nation's capital in Washington DC, where we explore the intersection of healthcare politics, financing, and delivery. For additional perspectives on health policy and leadership. Read my weekly blog Bisbee's Brief. For questions and suggestions about Fireside Chat, contact me through our website, firesidechatpodcast.com, or gary@hmacademy.com. Thanks for listening.

SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearMAILING LIST: www.arationalfear.com The pod must go on — from our separate homes we keep cup and carry on — on the show this week we bring you the best and brightest brains on COVID19 including Eureka Prize winner Dr. Darren Saunders, comedian Rosie Piper, Dj Dylabolical, hosts Dan Ilic and Lewis Hobba and comedian Bec Melrose drops in to do 5min from her cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival Show. (00:00) Preamble.(01:40) Start.(02:50) Introductions.(04:27) Sponsor: Visit the 90's.(06:22) The 3rd week of Coronarama.(12:28) Dr. Darren Saunders gives some COVID19 answers.(26:40) Alan Jones on the Coronavirus(29:10) Bec Melrose does 5min of her cancelled MICF show.(35:50) Wrap up(36:47) News Fighters Dan Ilic 0:00Well, before we start, the building committee festival has been cancelled. Lewis actually predicted this the day before they actually cancelled it on our last week's show. I've actually got a clip of you Lewis predicting this. Here it is. Now before we start letting people know that our Melbourne Comedy Festival show Tickets are on sale at this stage. The Melbourne Comedy Festival is still going. Yeah, I mean, what is it? It's currently Thursday evening, I would say we have 12 hours left for you to purchase tickets, feel good about them and then feel the need to return them when the coroner predicted predicted Louis hell but what do you think about that? I mean, obviously, I'm a genius. I see everything. It's palpable tonight. It's Thursday again $60 million. It's gonna be number 37. Touch all your money. I'm 37. Now if you if you get a refund, I should let you know. become one of our subscribers on Patreon. For as little as five bucks a month you can support a rational fear to bring you podcasts and videos. This week. We actually double Our Patreon subscriber limit term to 11. And a big shout out to someone named Margot haba. Who is now donating any relation Louis maga haba hey, yeah, that's my Lewis Hobba 1:14mom shout for mom. She's been financially Dan Ilic 1:18helping me out since day job. So it's still good to know that she hasn't laid off Thank you, mom. And also, for every patient subscriber who wins will expected like 50% of that to go to restaurant fears pitcher Patreon. Thank you very much, Louis. It's very generous of you. irrational fears are coated on gadigal Land of urination. I pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging. Let's start the show. Unknown Speaker 1:42A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, camera, Unknown Speaker 1:48and gum and section 40 of a rational Unknown Speaker 1:51fear recommended listening Unknown Speaker 1:53by a mature audience. Dan Ilic 1:54Today on irrational fear cuantas is reportedly seeking a government bailout when asked What they did with their recent $5 billion profit, a spokesman suggested it was stuck on the back of the cuantas lounge. The NFL is seeking a bailout from the government claiming that Australia won't be Australia without Rugby League, which is news to people in Western Australia, South Australia Victoria Northern Territory in Tasmania who all said who is rugby lake. Tasmania has shut its border to mainland Australia. On top of a 14 day quarantine people will be deported from the island if they don't test positive to being a close cousin. There's plenty of toilet paper for everyone. This is irrational. Unknown Speaker 2:38irrational. Dan Ilic 2:50Welcome to irrational fear. Now let's meet our fear mongers tonight billed as one of Australia's premier transgender lesbian Canadians maybe it's rise pifo Hello Hello, in 2019 he was the winner of Australia's most prestigious science prize in 2020. He's shutting down his lab because as it turns out, being good at important work is not valued in Australia. It's Dr. Darren Saunders. Good, I will look I'm fine. And as someone who is pretty good for the apocalypse and as someone who has to live with the uncertainty every day in the cutthroat, chaotic world of US public broadcasting, it's Lewis. Hello. Hello, Dan. Yes, a joy to be here. Not broadcasting. I can't hear anything. It's actually can I say, my my Cynthia virus here and everyone's been working from home. This current setup of a million people speaking from different places, has become the norm. And I feel like I'm just back in high school watching my substitute teacher struggle with the DVD player again. And on the pots and pans, it's DJ diabolical Unknown Speaker 3:59now Now I've always stood up the back end being the silent DJ and the whole by Paul Shaffer and I took a global pandemic to get me on the mic. You will probably regret it. Thank you, Dan. Dan Ilic 4:09A little later on the show broadcast. Alan Jones shares his view on Corona virus comedian Beck Melrose will be popping by two to five minutes after cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival show and della balika will deliver us fresh new news fighters. But first, we couldn't do this show without our sponsors. Here's our first sponsor for tonight. Hi, Unknown Speaker 4:29I'm unindicted war criminal and foppish former Prime Minister Tony Blair. And I mean, look, these are uncertain times, right? Like 2020 his brothers coronavirus, the climate crisis and married at first sight. And since international travel has been banned, I'm inviting you to take a break and book a journey to somewhere when nothing interesting happens. The 90s I mean, look, you could learn to surf the web with Morgan Freeman. Unknown Speaker 4:55Click on Netscape Navigator Unknown Speaker 4:56and type in www dot But you thought out the vista.com Unknown Speaker 5:02then search for the answer to anything you want. Like why can Kevin Costner do Unknown Speaker 5:06an English accent? Or go on a tour of the White House with my good colleague, Bill Clinton. And in this drawer is where I put all the things I want to disappear, lock cigars use tissues and genocide in Rwanda. I've never even heard of that place. Sir. Mr. Epstein's on the phone. Oh, Unknown Speaker 5:25excuse me, Unknown Speaker 5:26Jeffrey. Hi. Of course, Saturday's great for me. Or you could even visit the set of a television commercial with Donald Trump. I don't even drink vodka. They want me to sell it because I can sell it. Vodka. It's Unknown Speaker 5:42fantastic. Believe me, but Oh, hang on a second. Hello. Hello Jeffrey. Jeffrey Epstein. My friend is a billionaire just like me. It's what we have in common. Saturday. I'll be there of course. Unknown Speaker 5:57So look, book a ticket to of the 90s when the war on terror was just sparkle in my eye. What has it hasn't finished yet? This month? Oh, good, who? Actually Don't tell me I'll watch it on DVR. So pimp your right to the 90s. Right? a time where if you wanted to enjoy an apocalypse, you have to go to the cinema. How about good deeds? Unknown Speaker 6:22Thank you. Dan Ilic 6:23This is irrational fear we're into the third week of coronavirus on last week on inside is paid event ensel and tweeted that when tweeted when the CMO into the studio he offered to shake everyone's hand. Later that afternoon the Prime Minister suggested that everyone stop shaking hands which gave us a huge release to everyone who is forced to meet the prime minister and Kobe did a monologue this week from his bath. The NBC today show as Al Roker the weatherman did the weather from his kitchen TV shows are doing shows with that audiences which is nothing new. We did we did it tonight lay all the time the difference is popular shows are seeing their audiences to stay at home and people in the middle Panic buying weed. So my friends, how is the apocalypse treating you so far? Unknown Speaker 7:05I think Unknown Speaker 7:07people would probably expect it to be worse than it is. Right. But I've been doing some thinking. Because a lot of people think that like comedy is in like a bit of crisis at the moment, right? Like the comedy festivals being cancelled and everything. And that's obviously, you know, a bad thing. But I think like, it's actually going to, sort of, in at least when like, everything kind of blows over in the end, it's actually going to set the comedy community out quite well. And I like I've been talking to a lot of comedians and whatnot. I've just got like a sort of like a list of things he that I'd like love to go through. Sort of like, tell everyone, what, what sort of good, good stuff we've got to look forward to right. So like, at least while we're all like self isolating, socially distancing and whatnot right now. There's a Everybody is being pushed to like the podcasting world, right? Dan Ilic 8:04Unfortunately, yeah, this is how we do it. We were unfortunately having to make a podcast over Google Hangouts. It's very shoddy. Unknown Speaker 8:11Yeah. Well, I think there's gonna be a lot more of that right and like obviously like, that's a great thing because all we want is a lot more straight white men telling us which movies we need to watch right? So I've talked to like a few people who have got some like podcasts in the in the works and I just want to go through some of them right now. So I've heard there's there's one coming up was called Mighty Morphin Power recap, right? Which is a it's two middle aged white men just sort of watching Mighty Morphin Power Rangers episode by episode and going through that and I can only imagine that that is going to be some truly interesting content. Another one that is come through my my friends podcast, you should go to the fuck are you looking at again, middle aged males Come on there and discuss all the best fights that they've gotten into over their, over their lifetime. So that's a pretty good one is there's also one called, we'll just tell you a mother, we ate it all, which is essentially it's two white males and a trans woman who watched sort of that American Pie style teen sex comedies every week and discuss those and I know you're thinking that doesn't sound like it has any legs at all. It couldn't even have 100 episodes. It didn't celebrate that today. Please listen, please listen. Dan Ilic 9:30Is this is this your podcast? Right? Unknown Speaker 9:33Oh, no, it's certainly not mine. No, I don't know he's talking about I don't have any involvement in that podcast at all. Please listen. We really need it. Please listen, Unknown Speaker 9:41this there's certainly going to be a lot of time for binge watching. So I see those podcasts going well, I'm just not sure about the restaurant review and travel podcasts how they're gonna car living, Unknown Speaker 9:51may not suddenly gonna suffer. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 9:56I think what it's gonna come down to is a lot of kind of reminiscing style. ones another one that I've heard of, sort of in the vein of in the vein of guys we fuck these chicks we've routed so I'm sure there'll be quite a lot of tasteful material covered in in that podcast yeah or Unknown Speaker 10:12remember what toilet paper was or what was food Unknown Speaker 10:17Yeah, that was that was actually quite a good thing I haven't posted I wait I wait I might move out today and left behind or who gives a crap toilet paper so we are set Dan Ilic 10:26oh my god that is my leaving behind gold. Unknown Speaker 10:29Yeah, I was surprised except Dan Ilic 10:31you can watch your mom with it. Unknown Speaker 10:34You can watch it on with gold if you try hard enough. Unknown Speaker 10:36Yeah, probably get to that point. Dan Ilic 10:38I think it's a it's a rough endorsement if someone facing a period of potential quarantine with housemates is moving out right now. Like I don't want to spend two weeks with you specifically. Thanks not even two weeks. It's like It's like people would really have to be bunkering down for if month so I pick people that are saying the next five months are going to be awful in this house if I don't move. It's gonna be a real test, particularly if you live in a share house. I think a lot of people are talking about the the rate of babies going up in nine months after this, but I think people are gonna start talking about the rate of divorces going out. Unknown Speaker 11:20Statistically divorces have gone up in China because of the all the all the isolation. Well, really well. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's already in this in the stats. Unknown Speaker 11:30Yeah, that's the biggest problem actually. Yeah. Well, Darren, what's your Unknown Speaker 11:34best shot his biggest problem? Dan Ilic 11:36Darren, what are you saying? What are you predicting will happen in five months time? Unknown Speaker 11:40Ah, look, I think I just want to point out that I think I was way ahead of the curve. I'm shutting down my lab because unless you're building covert test kits or vaccines, everyone's shutting down their lab. So that turned out to be quite prescient, actually. I'm just yeah, I'm, it's where are we gonna be in five months time? Well, I think the world's gonna look really different. I hate to be really heavy about that, but I think actually, you know, to put a positive slant on it, I reckon we're gonna come out the other side of much better society and a much better community. I think we're getting a really good reminder of what's actually important in life. And I think that's a good that's a good thing to hang on to. As we go into as we go into pastor it's definitely a good thing to hang on to. I've been eating I've been eating types of pasta and rice I never even knew existed this week. Unknown Speaker 12:23First time in about five years. Dan Ilic 12:27Darren, it's great to have you on the podcast because we're not experts at all. But you know, you are an expert. You are a doctor now a professor. So can you tell us I'm sure people were turning to you for all kinds of scientific advice because your head is often on the television. Often your voices often on the radio as a as a communicator of science. What are the kinds of questions I thought maybe I could ask you to collect a bunch of questions that people have been asking you and maybe you could quiz us tonight on the answers and so we'll we'll try and provide With the answers, and then you can tell us whether we're right or wrong. Dr. Darren Saunder 13:02Oh, this is perfect. I've got more questions than I can answer so I can feed these back to people this will be excellent. I reckon the good ones will lead off with is what? What's the effect of what bushfire smoke we all breathe in for months and months and months on what's going to happen? We've covered infection. Dan Ilic 13:20Your lungs will taste like smoked salmon. Unknown Speaker 13:26Fewer koalas are alive to die. Unknown Speaker 13:30That's a positive shadow that koalas can get covered up? That's a good question. Unknown Speaker 13:33Let's find out why I gave I gave them chlamydia. Rose Piper 13:39I think in effect it will have is because we were all told that we were breathing, whatever it was, like 37 dots a day or something like that. But now the economic downturn is probably going to cause some people to stop smoking. So it was like kind of getting your fixing before you before you quit, you know? Unknown Speaker 13:57Yeah, yeah, it's not not a bad way to look at it. Dan Ilic 14:00actually did buy a facemask during the bush fires that turned out to be quite handy in the long run Unknown Speaker 14:06ahead of the curve again, Unknown Speaker 14:07yeah, you're like Nostradamus Dan Ilic 14:13Listen to me more. But what what do you think Dan? What do you think the the ramifications of breathing in that bushfires mega? Unknown Speaker 14:21The actual answer is we probably don't know the guests or the hypothesis would be that we're probably a little bit more susceptible to infection all that smoke has been damaging our lungs the whole time we bring breathing it in and it's probably making us a little bit more susceptible to the infection as for having fictional play out in people had to say so it's not a good news story. That one. Dan Ilic 14:41There was such a weird point in kind of time where the smoke you couldn't really avoid it anywhere like you like with the corona virus. I feel like you can probably do if you don't have it, you can probably do your best to not have it for a long time. But the smoke was just so unavoidable because you couldn't really escape to any place that didn't have it. Unknown Speaker 15:01Yeah at one point I was sharing it the water tank where I was staying actually got permeated with smoke. It was like sharing scotch. It was not pleasant. Unknown Speaker 15:10Yeah, it sounds pretty good. It's not you Dan Ilic 15:14could you could you could sell that at a Gwyneth Paltrow resort. Out showering genuine Australian bush is a $300 so I'm just gonna make a note of that. That's actually pretty good. What's your next question? Derek? All right, next question was Unknown Speaker 15:32what is going to happen to everyone that's swimming and can we swimming pools? Can we swim in the ocean and avoid covert Dan Ilic 15:39thought calls? Were a no no rush think the ocean should be fine, right? Unknown Speaker 15:43I hope the ocean is fine. Dan Ilic 15:45That's my thought to my thought is that the ocean is antibacterial. Every Unknown Speaker 15:53interesting one isn't the ocean. Nobody knows the ocean. The sunlight kills a lot of germs. But if probably want to kill the viruses. But Dan Ilic 16:03before you go on are the answers to all your question is nobody knows. There's a lot of Unknown Speaker 16:11things that we're all getting it right. Dan Ilic 16:13It's good. All right, great. What's the next question? Unknown Speaker 16:17When are we gonna have a vaccine? Dan Ilic 16:20I got this one. I got this one. I got this one. Nobody knows. Unknown Speaker 16:25Louis, what do you think? Unknown Speaker 16:26I would have said, Yeah, nobody knows. Dan is one of the few things we do we actually don't know. Unknown Speaker 16:34I'm gonna I'm gonna get confident and Unknown Speaker 16:36get on the front foot and say within a month. Unknown Speaker 16:38Damn. Oh, that's a big goal. Wow. Unknown Speaker 16:42I was actually hoping that Louis would say that because then it would happen. Oh, that's not Unknown Speaker 16:49to say that I'm afraid. Unknown Speaker 16:53So this one I picked deliberately because I can't actually answer this one. This is ah, Unknown Speaker 16:58so I don't know if you saw Yes, I think it was yes. Today Unknown Speaker 17:00the very first human guinea pigs patients got the first test doses of one of the new vaccines. So Unknown Speaker 17:07where were they? Where can we get it from? Unknown Speaker 17:10Woollies? I think I think Trump's bought it already. Probably. That's what Unknown Speaker 17:13he tried to he tried to buy one of the German companies. Dan Ilic 17:16So where were they doing where who got Unknown Speaker 17:18the first vaccine? Why don't we find out? I believe they were in Europe. I could be wrong. I don't remember precisely. We've got a we got a vaccine in development in Australia that's been in animals now. So it's almost ready to test in humans. And then the trick is making enough for hundreds of millions of people that that will take a few months at least. Dan Ilic 17:36Right. Is that when you're gonna start your lab again, that's the that's the plan. Unknown Speaker 17:40We're just gearing up for that. Now. Dan Ilic 17:42Do you have another question for us about 19? just mash misconceptions. Unknown Speaker 17:46Oh, look, here's the one. Here's the question of the day or the question of the week is, why haven't they shot schools yet? Unknown Speaker 17:53Why haven't they shot the schools yet? That's the one that's on everyone's lips around here. Why haven't they shot the schools yet? Dan Ilic 17:58Because people need To know about white history and forget about colonialism. That's why schools Yeah, this time, the white man fixes everything. That is why they haven't shut the schools yet. Unknown Speaker 18:09There's probably too many decision makers in there who've just had the kids get to school age who have gone I'm not fucking taking them back in the house now. I feel Unknown Speaker 18:18like Dan Ilic 18:20it is consistent with like this government's long term war against teachers, namely that it's hoping that instead of having to underpaid them, though, they can just get what? Unknown Speaker 18:42destination crook? Unknown Speaker 18:44Yeah. It's funny. Remembering the value of all of these kind of jobs like nurses and teachers, right. Dan Ilic 18:50What is what is it Darren, I mean, you're someone who's seen the brunt of this kind of attitude from our government that there seems to be a dislike or distrust of expertise of really smart people who know things. Why is it that this government does have all got this government? Not in this not it's not particularly this government coming through all around the world? Yeah, have a have a distaste and a distrust of people with expertise and doing everything they can to seemingly defund them and get rid of them. I think Unknown Speaker 19:22the brutal truth of that is because they delivered some uncomfortable facts and truth to them that didn't suit their sort of political ends. And so they undermine them as much as they could, you know, people have been profiteering politically and financially for years of undermining facts and truth. Dan Ilic 19:38But getting rid of like that getting rid of like the pandemic unit for the CDC in America seems like a completely counterintuitive act, Unknown Speaker 19:48given that we're just they're just sitting around doing nothing. It's just Dan Ilic 19:52wasting money, and then we can get them back. We want them we know where they are. We can get them back whenever we want. Unknown Speaker 20:00No like firemen, they just sit around all day doing nothing get rid of them. Unknown Speaker 20:03Most medicine? Dan Ilic 20:05Do you honestly think Darren that that is like that is the motive like it's it is purely, you're you're delivering information that is too dangerous for us politically to even have. Unknown Speaker 20:14But I think well, you're probably I mean, if you look at the climate change, the climate change is an obvious one, you know, that's where it seems to be the lightning rod for this sort of approach of denying truth, or whatever you want to call it. And it was literally that there were some really rich people and big companies that were, you know, their profits are under threat, and they've spent a lot of money trying to prop up those profits by sitting down, you know, we saw the tobacco companies do it before them and then and then what's happened is the political parties have all figured out that that's a really good way of getting hold of power is to is to take that approach, you know, and I think that that's fine when the threat is just as existential as the as the coronavirus, but it's, you know, 20 or 40 years down the road and suddenly that model doesn't work when the threat is very real and very now, huh? Dan Ilic 20:56Well, here are some good things about Kovac 19. There has been a huge reduction in co2 emissions up to 10%. In some countries, because of the ban on cruise ships, the Venice canals have become extremely clear and you can see to the bottom bottom of them without pollution and sediment. And another good thing about the Cova 19 is that your revision has been cancelled for this year. So no Eurovision what are the good things have we seen out there because it covered 19 do you think Unknown Speaker 21:25a lot of videos of penguins loose in zoos looking at the fish for them all sounds pretty good. Unknown Speaker 21:32I think my favourite good news story was the directive from ISIS that came out through the way Unknown Speaker 21:41ISIS put out a press release banning the Unknown Speaker 21:47suicide bombers from going to Europe because obviously, you know, Venice, probably beautiful but you know, even all h&s sit up today. They've ended it. If terrorists you go into Europe Unknown Speaker 22:03you don't want to you know, blow off a building while you're feeling a bit snotty in the nose there Unknown Speaker 22:10is a one way ticket surely I don't quite know what they're saying. Unknown Speaker 22:16And then I believe the the mayor of Baltimore has ordered everyone to stop shooting each other so they can. So they can create rooms for in the hospitals for covered victims. So I think they'll be a massive downturn in street violence until we run out of toilet paper and then there'll be a massive upturn in street violence. Dan Ilic 22:37Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger has been making great content from his home he's been advocating for social distancing you may have seen earlier in the week him feeding his ponies inside his home. Here is one of him sitting in a sitting in a in a hot tub, smoking a cigar giving some very good advice. Unknown Speaker 22:55I just finished a bike ride and a little bit of workout and I just didn't keep staying at home all the way from the crowd and away from outside. The reason why I'm saying that is because I still see photographs and videos of people sitting outside compares all over the world and having a good time and hanging out in crowds. That is not wise, because that's how you can get the virus. That's how you get it, like contact with other people. So stay away from crowds stay away from being in restaurants and outdoor cafes, especially now it's springtime, all the kids are going to the beach and celebrate and drink and all that stuff. This is not a good idea to stay away from the crowd, go home, and then we can overcome this whole problem. This whole virus in no time, but you got to go and follow those orders. Just remember, stay at home. Don't go go to crowds, but they took it down. Dan Ilic 23:55Think he's been incredibly responsible. He is the most responsible vendor out there. I've been trying to tell my mom to stay away from her church and stop going to the shops. But she just ignores me She completely says she says, you young people are too worried we're at church and we're not coughing over each other. The upside of that is I can say my inheritance will be coming a little bit earlier than I expected, but it's silver linings, a silver lining, how do we convince how do we convince our parents that they should be staying home kalon that there's a property that they can buy inside their already existing property? Unknown Speaker 24:33negatively? Unknown Speaker 24:38Many negatively, Unknown Speaker 24:41that it just sort of folds in on itself, and then they'll never leave. They'll always be searching for that next property that we can't have Unknown Speaker 24:49a good excuse for them to be more xenophobic, because then they can blame someone for them. Having to be Dan Ilic 24:57I hate to tell this story, but my mom, you very quietly xenophobic. whenever she's telling anecdotes she will dip her voice whenever she has to name the race of the person in the anecdote so she'll be like, and then at the shops I saw, man and he just went. Well, that's nice Alicia, Alicia blunting is xenophobia. Unknown Speaker 25:18My mom went from complete and utter coronavirus denial to full blown prepper in 24 hours. So I had a quiet word to use. Unknown Speaker 25:26What was the turning point? Because I'm curious. Yeah. Cuz a lot of Berman's like everything's fine. And then they turn what was the feed for them? Unknown Speaker 25:32I pointed out she was letting me down. You know, I was going on TV and radio and telling everybody all this stuff. And she was basically making me look like a fool for ignoring me. And, you know, no mom wants to embarrass this unlike that. I was talking to a girl and she's gone from, you know, you need to teach the kids how to grow their own food they need to know how to so she went right back to full on 1930s self sustaining skills. Can she talk to my mom, we can swap numbers. Unknown Speaker 25:57I think the main thing the responsibility for all of us to do Is share our netflix possible with our parents. Unknown Speaker 26:05My mom the shares with me. Dan Ilic 26:10I'm just trying to do as many irrational fear podcasts as we can because I know as a passionate subscriber, we make a lot of money. We'll just keep listening and you'll never be able to leave the house. Thank you, Margot harbour. Thank you very much. A little later on comedian back Melrose will join us to do a type five from her cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival shot. But I don't know if you heard this. Earlier this week. Alan Jones compared the corona virus to climate change claiming it was a high experimentally yesterday and clarified a few things. Good morning everyone. A lot of people have suggested to me that I'm not taking Corona virus seriously enough by comparing it to the hopes of climate change. Oh, God. Well, let me tell you Cova 19 as they're calling it, that some sort of scientist or something Ah God, nerds. kovat 19 is a hoax much like carbon dioxide. I haven't seen it with my own eyes so it doesn't exist. And my eyesight is very good, like posted on the door on the other side of my Southern Highlands studio where I'm broadcasting from for the next six months for no reason in particular, I could read a sign that says warning stay 1.5 metres away from this door. Nothing to do with coronavirus I've just got to keep the home studio sounding crystal clear. Don't want some sort of goose coming in here squawking at me, and I'm not talking about any easy God. Now my good friend Scott Morrison has just told me you must stop panic buying it's clearly an Australian Well let me tell you something. He got something wrong there. The only thing you should be panic buying is my new album, Alan Jones's songs for a life of isolation. Got me Alan Jones singing all of your favourites like oh bye bye Unknown Speaker 28:00Don't want to pay Oh Unknown Speaker 28:07give us a call the open line Unknown Speaker 28:10wonderful. Don't forget that classic don't don't Unknown Speaker 28:16don't sketch show close to me. And how about a cheeky Jewett? You give me feed Unknown Speaker 28:25when you kiss me fever when you hold me tight Unknown Speaker 28:32in the morning fever all throughout Unknown Speaker 28:35the night taken away Anthony Kalia Dan Ilic 28:38god what a voice wait till you hear him sing our water voice. We had to do it on Skype but still you get the idea so don't believe what you read. There is no Corona virus. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist a bit like the Bledisloe Cup. I've never seen it so we've never lost it. All ballad joads Alan Jones there. Unknown Speaker 28:58That's right. I haven't I haven't been travelling work for a few weeks but I feel like I just had a nice taxi ride to the airport. That was fantastic. Dan Ilic 29:04irrational fear and I haven't touched my face in weeks and weeks since the Melbourne International Comedy Festival has been cancelled I thought wouldn't be great to get some of our comedy Friends of the show to come and do their best tight five from the cancel shows that they can't perform in Melbourne and coronavirus is really knocked that right out of the park. Now we have to do it on Google Hangouts, but we're going to try it anyway. I thought we'd get back Melrose to give it a go since she's gonna be on the show on irrational fear next week, I thought what better way to get her to come on the show but do a bit of a warm up by doing her best High Five from her cats of Melbourne, Melbourne Comedy Festival show. So ladies and gentlemen without any further ado back Mel rose. Unknown Speaker 29:51Hello are legends. How are we doing? Dan Ilic 29:53Yeah, well. Unknown Speaker 29:55Good, good. Unknown Speaker 29:57Nice crowd work. Unknown Speaker 30:01What I do for a living? Unknown Speaker 30:03I thought I do. I'm the top five of my office gear because some I thought I wrote that thinking it'd be evergreen and I'd be able to use it forever, but we don't have offices anymore. So I might as well give it a run. Unknown Speaker 30:17Please come straight from work. Give us a word. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 30:23that's all right. Don't worry. Unknown Speaker 30:25What's blocked isn't it? I've just started working in an office so my zest for life is draining faster than the Murray Darling I can assure you No one's talking to one another like human beings in the office. There's all this jargon and buzzwords and shit that get in the white. My favourite one they use it my work is as per my last email. Have we heard this? Unknown Speaker 30:49A power move. As per my last email. It's the closest you can get to saying Fuck off. You grow up at work, isn't it? Unknown Speaker 31:00As per my last name I haven't got the confidence to use as per my last name I like 50 Bernie brown TED Talks short of the conference it takes to use as per my last email but there's so much of this bizarre language at work I kept hearing my boss say well why don't you give that project to back she's got capacity but once we got one over the back she's got capacity pass that over the back she's got capacity Unknown Speaker 31:25to fucking Tupperware container Unknown Speaker 31:28absolutely ridiculous. And everyone works worried about AI taking their jobs robots taking our jobs. I'm not that worried yet. I've seen the test online to prove you're not a robot. I reckon it's I can't check a box. So pick out a bridge in a lineup. I don't reckon they'll be coming for our jobs anytime soon. But even when they do, like my job, I don't give a shit. Let's see you try and machine learn your way through the social obstacle course. passive aggressive If kitchen signs we did set in my office had a sign above another sign that said read the sign. Unknown Speaker 32:11Never mind a robot that shit would short circuit a robot. Unknown Speaker 32:16We are decades away from developing the kind of technology that's going to be able to definitely navigate pretending to give a fuck about nails weekend's No, but we can do the same argument about I don't mean that it's going to save us so much time. So what we're just going to find more bullshit to fill the time with anyway. All the time we saved not having to turn our own butter that bought a training time just dissolved in extra weeks in a single generation. But my boss has been trying to get in a roll up but my work amongst a spate of redundancies and he kept trying to get us to do a sweep for the last races and no one was ever came. And I felt kind of sorry for him. So All right, so I printed out photos of everyone in the office and put us all into a little bowl. You're about to pick someone out. Unknown Speaker 33:08Now we just have to wait and see who gets the next redundancy. Unknown Speaker 33:13Someone's gone home with a hammer. Someone's kids aren't going to Disneyland this year. But we'll pull it ourselves a glass of yellow and we filed into the boardroom watch the real race unfold. It's a beautiful day for it. The race it stops a nation the crow's nest regional office redundancy cop. Janet from accounts is playing up in the barriers and what do you know what Alan the it lead made it to the start after having every Monday off for the last financial quarter. Unknown Speaker 33:45It is a miracle. Unknown Speaker 33:48They're all in. The lights are on set. Unknown Speaker 33:52Racing in the crow's nest regional office redundancy copy combo from comms is started strong closely followed by as per my last email Do you have five for a quick chat and Kathleen What do you even do? They round the corner and who called the unions coming down the outside buffeted by clearly the intern mansplain Mark has midfield on the rails just behind no before I've had my coffee and that's sort of my job description. Coming down the street is unsolicited neck massage on med KPI and some pre k my sandwich. Just a quick one for years going steady. Peter from risk is yelling, but nobody's listening. Hop ahead to For God's sake. Rob, why do you have the microwave? Oh, we've had a fall. It's clearly the intern. Clearly the interns broken down at the 650 and Neil says millennials just can't hack it in the workplace off the road. Deborah the gender and diversity lady is going strong having a renaissance in relevance off to some dodgy comments were made at the Christmas party. Janet from accounts hasn't wasted energy on a single smile as they had for him and he called the union's out in front of Monday morning small talk common from concert Oh, good birthday song. But he comes accidental reply Oh, accidental reply. Oh, Challenge by Rich Craig left jr in the lunchroom 350 to go in the crow's nest regional office, redundancy kaput, it's over called the union number called the union. Kathleen What do you even do and get fucked at smartcard, but who's this coming down the outside? It's the favourite wrench reparations is the line down the outside. He's not going anywhere. He plays tennis with the chairman. He's utterly useless and he's here to stay at wrench taking out the crow's nest regional office redundancy cop. hoffa had to wake on fire the CEO and a further third between should have stayed in Union I'm useless but the director is my uncle. Unknown Speaker 35:34Thanks, guys. Thanks very much. My I lost my job but I did want a hand. Dan Ilic 35:41You can't say back Melrose at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival tickets are not on sale now. Well, we're gonna be back weekly with irrational fear since our Comedy Festival show isn't going so please hit us up on Patreon give us a few bucks a month. Also FBI Radio where we normally record this needs your help. So please go to FBI radio.com for slash donate and give them a few bucks particularly if you live in Sydney and you love independent radio and and great music Special thanks to this episode to Rupert de gas Jacob Brown, FBI radio, Darren Saunders Lewis haba, Rose Piper, Dillon, Bain and the wonderful Beck Melrose. Unknown Speaker 36:25News guys. Dan Ilic 36:27Thanks so much. We'll leave you with the latest news fighters on the coronavirus Dylan Do you want to introduce it? Unknown Speaker 36:34Sorry coronavirus I actually did it on the NBA March Madness. No one I haven't haven't. Unknown Speaker 36:44What's coronavirus? Unknown Speaker 36:47This is new spiders. Unknown Speaker 36:52So you don't have to. One of the Unknown Speaker 36:54great things about the current age of having internet and social media is being able to watch your favourite celebrity breakdown over the corona virus pandemic in real time. sama handling it better than others he is rapid kadhi Bay who had her to a cancelled Unknown Speaker 37:09guess why because Corona Corona virus is this Unknown Speaker 37:19Corona virus shake on me like a couple of weeks after she was gonna be a couple of months after she let me know soccer star motherfucking backing up all foods a man clear so a bass can move to motherfucking Antarctica which once again cardi Bay the voice of reason in an age of confusion. Meanwhile, Arnold Schwarzenegger is living his best life hanging out at home with Danny DeVito. Oh, no, wait, sorry. That's a miniature horse. Unknown Speaker 37:45Luna loves carrots. Whiskey loves carrots. I just said my little bitter vegan food. Oh, that was yummy. Hmm. I just had a fantastic broker that the house amount, Jim. Unknown Speaker 37:58Yeah, I am at home. Take Michiko Both hills stoeger Unknown Speaker 38:05finished a bike ride and a little bit of workout and I just you know keep staying at home. Unknown Speaker 38:10Yes Do like on a stay at home, but maybe don't smoke a cigar I think we might need your lungs to be as healthy as possible. Meanwhile, Michael Stipe from REM isn't coping too well. It's the end of the world as we know it. And I feel stop trying to help Michael Stipe And don't you dare pivot to that shiny happy people bullshit either. We need you to stay calm in this time of crisis. Now a lot of musicians are getting in on holding online quarantine concepts, including Chris Martin of Coldplay whose music is like coronavirus for your ears. Unknown Speaker 38:49They were Oh Unknown Speaker 38:52look, I'm not trying to say that keyboard sounded bad but geez I think the audio is better on Keyboard Cat Just when things couldn't look any worse, Willie Nelson son Lucas hates us about the years with the biggest cliche he could reach for. Unknown Speaker 39:22Now look, if any government out there is listening Scott Morrison Trump bars Angela Merkel, the UN who I don't care, please Institute an immediate indefinite ban on performances of hallelujah. This is actually a policy I've been pushing for years long before Corona virus but this is the time we can make it happen. Meanwhile, Aussies returning home from overseas are going to be facing two weeks of self isolation. And most of them seem to be handling it pretty well. Yeah, just gonna lock myself in and just have some kinds for kotlin eyes. Unknown Speaker 39:53You're gonna spend the next two weeks again thanks Unknown Speaker 40:04Okay, that's news five is an irrational fear to listen to the full episode, subscribe to news fighters on your podcasting app or check us out at news fighters calm. I'm Dylan Bane. Keep washing your hands and bye for now. Unknown Speaker 40:16This is News spiders where we find the news. So you don't have to Transcribed by https://otter.ai A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

CATCH AND RELEASEThe Parable Of The Banquet - Luke 14:15-2315When one of those reclining with Him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is everyone who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.” 16But Jesus replied, “A certain man prepared a great banquet and invited many guests. 17When it was time for the banquet, he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’18But one after another they all began to make excuses. The first one said, ‘I have bought a field, and I need to go see it. Please excuse me.’ 19Another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to try them out. Please excuse me.’ 20Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, so I cannot come.’21The servant returned and reported all this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the city, and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame.’22‘Sir,’ the servant replied, ‘what you ordered has been done, and there is still room.’ 23So the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.HOLD ON.UNWORTHY.KEEP MOVING.WHO’S HUNGRY?BUFFET SYNDROME.Revelation 3:15-20 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

In 1969, Professor Larry Hench developed a glass that can grow with bones. His close friend and colleague, David Greenspan, helped Professor Hench develop the material into BioGlass, a product that is used in orthopedic and dental bone graft materials. David, a native of Brooklyn, wanted to be a drummer but turned to glass blowing instead. His big insight into entrepreneurship? “Never lie to yourself.” *This episode was originally released on September 25, 2018.* TRANSCRIPT: Intro: 0:01Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to Radio Cade a podcast from the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention in Gainesville, Florida. The museum is named after James, Robert Cade who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them. We’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work, and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace. Richard Miles: 0:39Glass that lives. That’s the subject of our Radio Cade podcast today and in the studio with me, I have David Greenspan. David, welcome. David Greenspan: 0:47Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here and it’s great to see the Cade Museum alive and well. Richard Miles: 0:52Thank you. Thank you. All right. Before we talk about you, David, which is, I know probably your favorite subject, right? Of course. Let’s tell the listeners a bit about BioGlass, which is the invention that you’re associated with. Just explain to me in very simple terms, what is the core technology underneath it and sort of how does it work and then we’ll come back later and talk about the applications in the market and that sort of stuff. David Greenspan: 1:15Bioglass is a bio material and there are lots of biomaterials you can think of. Metals for hips, knees, materials for wound healing, gauze, bandages, all biomaterials heart valves, some are synthetic some are natural. Bioglass is a form of glass and of course glass itself as a chemistry has lots of different compositions, lots of different properties within that category. BioGlass is unique because when it’s implanted, and originally it was used as a bone regenerative material. When it’s implanted in bone, it actually reacts like sugar dissolves. Well, much more slowly BioGlass the atoms, the Ions in BioGlass will react and actually stimulates bone healing and that was the core Aha moment. Richard Miles: 2:05I see. David Greenspan: 2:06So basically that was the concept and the original material and from that and from learning about how this glass reacts and how you could change the composition slightly and change, the reactions, the field kind of broadened out into applications well beyond just trying to help bone healing. Richard Miles: 2:25So that sounds both fascinating and incredibly complicated at the same time because unlike what your earlier examples about a metal hip, there you’re basically just taking an object, sticking it in the body and it replaces the previous object, but BioGlass really sounds quite different in that it is actually interacting with the body itself. David Greenspan: 2:44Yeah, it is different and when professor Larry Hinch actually invented the material, the first experiments, and he had a whole series of thought processes, which actually we can explore that, but it actually wasn’t… she wasn’t… I’m going to make a material that’s going to bond to bone. It was I’m going to make a more compatible material that we can put in the body. There’s a great quote by Isaac Asimov that I’m going to butcher right now, but basically he said the most profound moment in science is not “Eureka”, but “gee, that’s interesting” and that’s what it was. I mean, in the late sixties when Larry invented this, we were trying to make a material that the body wouldn’t reject. Richard Miles: 3:24I see. David Greenspan: 3:25And what he found as a result of the first experiment was that the material actually attached to the bone and that set an entirely new path for everybody coming later who was developing biomaterials. Richard Miles: 3:38You make a great point. Referring to Larry. Larry was the actual inventor, this Larry Hinch. We both knew Larry, you knew him, much better than I did. Um, and like a lot of inventors, Larry was an interesting guy, let’s shall we say, can you give our listeners a snapshot of maybe Larry’s career, but also his personality. David Greenspan: 3:57 Larry, was just in awe about the world and everything and he was curious. And that’s the best thing that I learned from Larry is there’s always another question to ask. You do an experiment. You get some information. That information that you get should lead you to ask three or four more questions. He was curious about everything. You knew him. I knew him. He was like a big grown up kid. And his interests were much more than just beyond science and biomaterials and bone regenerative medicine. I mean, he painted of course Boing Boing the Bionic Cat series of books that he wrote and authored, it wasn’t enough for him to write the book, but then he thought that he could make science kits for kids in seventh, eighth, ninth grade to do experiments based on the subject matter of the book. He was an incredible thinker. He was kind, generous, wonderful, and just had a love of life. Truly a PhD, a Renaissance Man, arts, painting, music, all of that. Richard Miles: 4:53I remember my wife Phoebe and I went and visited him I guess probably about five years before he died and he was showing us around his condo at the time and he was just, like you said, a little boy. I can’t remember what he was showing us, but there were various toys and devices and whatnot. And he was thrilled to be showing them off. And I remember he… didn’t he also record his own song. Uh… David Greenspan: 5:12Yes he did Richard Miles: 5:13I think you can find it on Youtube, right? About a mechanical part. David Greenspan: 5:17Yes. Yes, he did. And in fact there was a conference for bioceramics, bioglass and bioceramics and Larry was one of the co-founders. It was an international conference that rotated between Europe and America and the Far East, Japan or China. And at one of the first ones, which I was lucky enough to attend, the three Bill Bonfield and Tadashi Kokubo and Larry decided that at the banquet, the Europeans and the Americans and the Japanese and folks from the Far East and Australia would each get up and do a song and that became a regular thing at the banquets. So yeah, he was gregarious. He loved life and… Richard Miles: 5:56It was quite amazing. All right, let’s talk about you for a second you’re a Brooklyn boy and tell us sort of growing up, what were you like as a kid? What were your interests in any role models or were you just sort of like at aimless troublemaker? David Greenspan: 6:08I was a… Richard Miles: 6:09I understand it’s not mutually exclusive. You could be both, but go ahead. David Greenspan: 6:12I was… the first six years of my life, I grew up in the projects. We didn’t have a lot of money and so the projects were a little rougher than a really nice suburban sort of household and I kinda shied away, but when we did finally… my parents saved enough. We got into a house. It was a huge park that had a dozen baseball fields, three football fields. I was out the back door and they wouldn’t even bother calling me for dinner. Richard Miles: 6:38We’re still talking about Brooklyn. David Greenspan: 6:39Still Brooklyn Marine Park, Brooklyn born and raised, went to James Madison high school, Bader Ginsburg, Chuck Schumer, lots of other famous people. Graduated from James Madison. I had a large extended nuclear family and so growing up I did the normal getting into a little bit of trouble. I wasn’t a truant or anything and it was nothing conscious, but I just knew I had to do well in school, but my mother also thought “Oh, you should do music. You should learn art.” And I used to like to draw, so my first love was always sports, but my second first love was painting. I got to take art lessons from a professional artist who was a friend of my mother’s and she was kind of impressionist and so I studied that and I loved it and time would pass. Richard Miles: 7:21And you’re a drummer in a rock band currently. David Greenspan: 7:23Yeah, I played music so I had instrumental music in junior high school so that I got to play in the orchestra and the band and I love drumming and got together with friends, you know, it’s the 60s, 64 65 and… Richard Miles: 7:34So when they kicked Pete Best out of the Beatles, you’re on the shortlist. David Greenspan: 7:37I was ready. I was ready. Richard Miles: 7:37You never got the call. David Greenspan: 7:40One of one of my early most humbling experiences was we got to cut a demo record BT Puppy Records, the tokens in the happenings owned the little record company in Manhattan and we cut a demo and listened to what we sounded like and that’s when I realized music was not in my future. Richard Miles: 7:58It’s a nice way of putting it. But you did decide that glassblowing was in your future and how did that happen and how did that end up into ceramic engineering? David Greenspan: 8:05So being from New York, we would go on vacation, the summers in the Finger Lakes region in western New York is beautiful. So for everybody who hasn’t been up there go. And there’s a little town, Corning, New York, and you’ve probably heard Corning Glassworks, they had a museum a Glass Museum and part of that back then was Steuben glass company was blown crystal and it was gorgeous. So we’re in the museum. I’m at that point still painting, doing art. Richard Miles: 8:30So you’re in high school, at this point. David Greenspan: 8:32Just high school and there they were doing glassblowing. We watched them for 15 or 20 minutes and my parents said let’s go get lunch. And I said nope. And they said, come on David. And I said, you bring me back something. And they did. They went, they went to get lunch and I sat there for an hour and a half and decided right then and there I wanted to be a glass blower. Watching glass being blown was the most fascinating thing to me. Richard Miles: 8:55Do you remember what about it that was really compelling? David Greenspan: 8:57The fact that you could take something that’s red, hot, yellow, glowing shape it mold it put a puff of air, into it and it expands and then it cools down and it’s malleable and you can make all these beautiful forms and you could see through it and it’s shiny, and then at the end of the line some of the pieces would have engravings and you’d watch these artists engrave. It was pure art and that trip was obviously the seminal moment in my life. It’s sad. Richard Miles: 9:26So later on, where did you go to college? David Greenspan: 9:29When I got back, I announced to my whole family I was going to be a glassblower and there were three coronaries because nice Jewish kid from Brooklyn should be a doctor or a lawyer, you’re going to starve if you’re an artist. And I did really well in school. School was pretty easy for me and I had a cousin said, “I know a college that gives courses in glass blowing.” Richard Miles: 9:49This is on the down low… David Greenspan: 9:52Yes… and so she said, go to glove Joy’s college catalog. I don’t know if anybody remembers. They used to have these big catalogs that had all the schools. So we went to the library. Alfred University, upstate New York, right near the Finger Lakes, not too far from Corning is a private university, but they had a College of Ceramics, so it was New York State College of Ceramics, but it was administered by Alfred University and the Premier College for ceramics. They have the best number one ceramic art college in the world, I believe. Still do and they… Richard Miles: 10:21Was there a formal relationship with Corning. Did Corning’s name fund some of this or no? David Greenspan: 10:25No, this was started by a potter because they had terracotta clay at Alfred, but it became this worldclass college and I said, okay, well if I can’t be an artist there’s this technical stuff, and back then in the late sixties it was rocket nose cones. This metal oxide semiconductors was just very new, so there was all this new science and technology around ceramic materials in general and that led me to Alfred. Richard Miles: 10:51So Brooklyn boy goes to college in upstate New York and here we are in North Central Florida. Something happened in between. How did you end up in Gainesville working with Larry Hinch? David Greenspan: 11:02Well, of course this is the late sixties, so there’s the whole Vietnam thing. I wasn’t sure I wanted to go work in industry. I’ve loved research, you know, a senior projects and doing research and what I was doing was trying to develop materials for an early artificial kidney so that kind of brought in the biomedical stuff and I was looking around to do graduate work in glass and there’s a very limited number of people that do work in glass. And Larry Hinch was at the time looking at developing glass that would withstand radiation damage in outer space because we had a space program and they were going to get astronauts up into space and they had windows but the windows would fog. So he was working on that and there was some very specific technical properties about glass. Glass is normally an insulator. Think back to early 1900s. There were all these electrical insulators that were made from glass because it doesn’t conduct well. Larry, a lot of other people found that you could change the elements in the glass composition and you could conduct electricity slightly or do other things. And Larry was working on that in the late sixties and so that fascinated me. So I applied to there and to a few other schools, Clemson University and Virginia Polytechnic Institute, which is Virginia Tech now. Basically why I came down to is I got the best research assistantship offer from the University of Florida and Larry’s work was interesting so I said I’m going to go there. So I get to the university and I sit down with Dr. Hinch and I say, well I’d like to work on these style electric properties of glass. And he said, well I don’t have any more funded research there but I have this new thing that we just started and it’s a ceramic biomaterial. It wasn’t called BioGlass in 1972 when I started was a ceramic biomaterial. He said you could work on that. He said, but if you want to work on the other stuff, you could do a teaching assistantship. So I could teach labs and then do my studies and then do my research or I could have a research assistantship and not bother with the 20 hours a week of labs and grading papers, so I said yes, I’ll do that. Dr Buddy Clark, who is still at University of Florida in the College of Dentistry was I think the first PhD student and I was the second working on the development of BioGlass. Richard Miles: 13:16So from what you describe, David, it sounds like this is a technology that industry would love. Did BioGlass immediately start making a bunch of money or… tell us about the commercialization. Now I do know Larry really didn’t make any money off of his invention for a number of different reasons, but explain to me what happened after it was established as a thing who bought it? David Greenspan: 13:38Sure. I think first 30 years later, overnight success. The concept that Larry put forward, that a synthetic material can be implanted in the body and stimulate repair was so far into everybody working in the field. Nobody believed it. I mean it literally took 15 years to convince other biomaterial researchers that it was real and it worked and because we didn’t know how or why. But in fact, by 1973, Larry had posited his five-stage reaction for bioactive glass. First it releases sodium and then silicon ions dissolve a little bit and then they reprecipitate on the surface and then that causes calcium-phosphate to precipitate and then collagen comes in there and it bonds to the bone and then it crystallizes to hydroxyapatite, which is bone mineral and all that’s well and good, but that’s not really the answer, but it was put out there and as you know, if you put it out there enough it becomes real. Richard Miles: 14:34Right. David Greenspan: 14:35So it was really tough. But sticking with it, finally, we found applications that were necessary where there was an unmet need basically and that’s what you have to do. It’s fine to have a material, but you need the unmet need and that was in dental bone grafting and… Richard Miles: 14:52That was already you said 15 years in… David Greenspan: 14:54Yeah 15 years… mid to late eighties. There had been an attempt with a startup company to actually commercialize it, but the people were less than upstanding and the company failed miserably and university got the technology back and then another group of investors came in who were more reasonable. Larry actually drove that and we actually started properly going through all the FDA regulations and all the processes to get a material into the marketplace. Richard Miles: 15:22And this was for dental… David Greenspan: 15:24Dental, bone graft, yes. Richard Miles: 15:25Eventually became a toothpaste as well. Or was it different? David Greenspan: 15:29 That was different. This was called perio glass, so it… take the BioGlass, crush it up into a powder and for people who that have periodontal disease, they have bone loss between the teeth and your teeth can fall out and it causes a lot of problems. So he put a little bit of this in that pocket where the bone is resorbed and you suture the gums up over it, cleaned it all out and it helps regrow the bone and save the teeth. And at the time there were other calcium phosphate, hydroxyapatite bone mineral types of products being used for that. So basically the synthetic bioglass was pulled along in this developing market for the periodontist and the oral surgeons who were looking for better solutions. And that’s what it always is. Richard Miles: 16:13So I got to ask David, and you can take the fifth amendment on this one, but was the University of Florida any help during this process at all? Or were they just sort of on the sidelines or… David Greenspan: 16:22It’s a complicated question. They tried to… Richard Miles: 16:25I said you can take the fifth on this. David Greenspan: 16:26No, no, no, no. Hindsight’s always 20 20. At the time they were doing, I think what they felt was best. They were looking not proactively, but if somebody came, they were willing to license technology. Larry always had a hand in continuing to do research that was funded by the company, so companies that licensed the technology to commercialize it had a component that was giving Larry money directed towards some of what the company wanted to do, but back in the seventies and the eighties and of course there’s a very famous case of another inventor who invented some electrolyte drink and the university didn’t know what to do. So we were all very naive back then. Richard Miles: 17:05That’s one of the reasons I was asking. I couldn’t help but be struck by the timing in that. You said it was 1972 right… David Greenspan: 17:10When he invented, yeah… Richard Miles: 17:11And that’s right when the University of Florida chose to sue Robert Cade, the namesake of this podcast over Gatorade, and so I imagined that wasn’t the best environment maybe to… David Greenspan: 17:22But the university didn’t know they licensed. I mean the first license was to an orthopedics implant company, Howmedica. And the university did have a licensing agreement. It wasn’t as favorable to the university as it might have been. It wasn’t prohibitive to the company, but the university is so much better these days at knowing that… a lot of them. Yeah. Richard Miles: 17:42Tell us about now what applications is bioglass currently being used and I know of at least one NovaMin, the toothpaste. I know there’ve got to be other ones. David Greenspan: 17:51So BioGlass was something that we trademarked while I was still a graduate student. We needed a name I can remember… was in the conference room on a Friday afternoon in the materials building and there was a lot of beer and a lot of graduate students and we were looking for names for this ceramic biomaterial and bioglass one, and from that one composition, people started playing with others. So 45, S5 Bioglass’s one particular composition. There are a lot of others. The first materials were solid implants to replace the three smallest bones in the middle of the year, the malleus, the incus, and the stapes based middle ear prosthesis. Very successful clinically, not a big market, was not successfully commercialized. Perio glass was. Following that was Nova Bone, which… for orthopedics and there’s a very large market there in spine fusion. Probably 85 percent of bioactive glass used in orthopedics is used for spinal fusion surgeries. Beyond that is Novamin, very, very, very fine particle of that same composition used for tooth desensitization, but there are also other compositions and other companies. Biomin is a British company that is using bioactive glass in toothpaste. There’s a company, most eyeglass that produces a board, not a silicate glass, but a Bor, a glass which is bioactive has the same sort of properties that’s used in treating chronic wounds. It’s FDA approved. There are other glasses, bioactive glasses that have silver, which is an antimicrobial used in wound healing and a few other applications. Most of it is hard tissue, some wound healing, and a lot of oral applications. Richard Miles: 19:28Wow. So quite a few opportunities out there. David Greenspan: 19:31Oh yeah. Richard Miles: 19:33So David, here’s your chance to dispense pearls of wisdom. If you were to come across, and I’m sure you probably have come across, say academic researchers who remind you of yourself years ago or maybe remind you of Larry and let’s say they’ve done the same thing. They have a technology and they’re going to take it to market. They’re all excited. What are one or two things you would say definitely do this and then one or two things you’d say definitely don’t do that. David Greenspan: 19:57Well, the first thing I tell people is, look, I’m 68 years old. I’ve been at this for 43, 44 years now from the time I was a graduate student. I don’t think I have any advice that I can give you cause I’ve been through a lot, but the biggest, most important thing is as you’re developing it, there were so many pressures. Don’t fool yourself. Okay? Richard Miles: 20:17Always tell yourself the truth. David Greenspan: 20:18Always tell yourself the truth. It’ll be what it’ll be. The second thing is that it is a process, right? And that you really, really learn from your failures and as a species we’re not too good about admitting we’re wrong or that our beliefs might not be correct, right? But step back because it’s just a process. You won’t know it going forward, but 30 years later when you look back, you’ll go “ah ha”, we always think when we have a failure, it’s the end of the world. So occasionally it is okay, I’m sorry, but most of the time it’s not. If you think your idea is good and if you’ve really been honest with yourself and you’ve vetted it, don’t worry when you fail, if you fail, you should find out the reasons and overcome that and there’s gotta. Be a way of overcoming it. If your technology is good, if it’s true, if it’s going to be because… Richard Miles: 21:11And that’s the first part. If you haven’t lied to yourself right now… David Greenspan: 21:14If you haven’t lied to yourself, the worst thing you can do in research is create a dozen experiments, all of which succeed perfectly just according to your theory. That means you haven’t had the right hypothesis otherwise. It’s not research. If everything I did was going to be successful, then I have all the answers that’s going nowhere. That’s not researched. The beauty and the fun of it. I’ve managed lots of people and people would come to me with studies that were abject failures and I would get like really excited and everybody thought I was crazy, which is true, but that’s another story. In all seriousness, I get excited when something went wrong because we would sit down and go, okay, let’s figure out what happened, how and why it’s not going to be easy, it’ll be stressful, but we’ll learn something from it and we’ll advance. Richard Miles: 22:02Well, that sounds pretty wise to me. I got to say they would. So I think we’re going to figure out a way to track down the individual listeners of this episode and if any of them make it big, we’re going to make sure some royalties go your way we’re charging you for that advice. David Greenspan: 22:14You know, it’s… that should be the joy of science. Every results should lead you to ask two or three new questions and oftentimes I see people who get a result “Okay, I got the result.” I sit back with my arms folded and say, “okay, so?” and I get these curious looks. I said, “so doesn’t that bring any other questions to mind”? and it should if you think about where you were 30 years ago, oh, there’s some great advance. That’s the end. It’s never the end. Richard Miles: 22:44Well unfortunately it is the end of this episode. So perfect segue. Anyway, David, thanks very much for being on the show. Hope to have you back and it was really a pleasure talking to you. David Greenspan: 22:54Thanks. Outro: 22:57Radio Cade would like to thank the following people for their help and support. Liz Gist of the Cade Museum for coordinating Inventor Interviews. Bob McPeak of Heartwood Soundstage in downtown Gainesville, Florida for recording, editing, and production of the podcasts and music theme. Tracy Columns for the composition and performance of the Radio Cade theme song featuring violinist Jacob Lawson. And special thanks to the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention located in Gainesville, Florida.

Because of Bethlehem(Christmas 2019) 15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.” 16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told. (Luke 2:15-20) In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (Hebrews 1:1-3) A. Can we put our differences aside because of Bethlehem? B. Christmas and Bethlehem put life into perspective “Why do the nations conspire and people’s plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and rulers gather together against the Lord and against his anointed one...and the one enthroned in heaven laughs...” (Psalm 2:1-2, 4) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.(John 1:1-4, 14) C. God has a plan. He is working it out. He shared his plan with us on Christmas BETHLEHEM A. Christmas - our celebration of an infant born in Bethlehem... 1....is about a light shining and giving hope to people living in darkness “The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.” (John 1:5) 2. ...is about sinners finding peace and forgiveness from a Savior and friend “She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21) 3. ...is about receiving a God who is different than anyone imagined - a remarkable gift in an unremarkable package - God in created flesh “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us...full of grace and truth.”(John 1:14) 4. ...is about unlovely people being loved beyond their wildest expectations “We love because he first loved us” (1 John 4:19) 5. ...is about people who fear punishment and are scared to death “From the fullness of his grace, we have all received one blessing after another”(John 1:16) 6. ...is about people who have given up trying to live by God’s rules being reminded God didn't just make us, or think about us, but God is with us “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17) 7. ...is a promise that His best is yet to come. When Christ was born, our hope was born; his relentless love for us was exposed “God uses all things to work for the good of those who love him.” (Romans 8:28) B. This child born in Bethlehem changes everything - from human history to our eternal destiny - if we follow the example of the shepherds “Good News of great joy that is intended for all people, that Today, in the town of David (Bethlehem) a Savior has been born to you, he is the anointed one, the Messiah.”(Luke 2:10-11) 1. The shepherds decided they had to go and see what God had done! 2. Then they interrupted their schedule, took a risk, and went CHALLENGE A. We need to accept Christmas, not only for information, but for transformation 1. I believe in miracles because I’ve embraced the miracle of Christmas “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--that which we have seen and hear we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; ...with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ...” (1 John 1:1-3) 2. If Bethlehem doesn't make a difference we’ve wasted our time B. Because of Bethlehem...is your life any different? Has your presence in this world made any difference? 1. Do you trust Jesus - the child laying in a manger - with your life and eternity? 2. Because of Bethlehem, today we can experience the Good News of Great Joy

In the final episode of Beneath the Subsurface Season One, we're focusing on Well Data Products and the full gamut of subsurface intelligence that can be gleaned from leveraging Well Data with Seismic. Caroline Brignac sits down with Jason Kegel, Ted Mirenda and Katie Fearn for a deep dive into the evolution of well data and how it’s used in today’s workflows.EXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODEProduction ForecastingCompletion DataWell Data ProductsInterpretation ProductsWell Production DataGlobal Well DataUS BasinsTABLE OF CONTENTS00:00 - Intro01:42 - Evolution of Well Data Products at TGS03:25 - Production Data & it's Uses07:38 - Production Data and Thesis Work09:09 - Longbow: A Well Performance Visualization Tool with Analytics12:08 - What is Well Performance Data Used For?15:04 - Validated Well Headers & Interpretation20:26 - Well Logs and Production Data for Students, Interns & Early Career22:30 - Historical Production and Well Data24:43 - The Marriage of Seismic and Well Data: Interpretation26:48 - Historical Data and Microfiche?!29:44 - What About Offshore Well Data Products?34:34 - How Much Gulf Of Mexico Data Does TGS Have?39:00 - Seismic or Well Data... Why Not Both?40:20 - Analytics Ready LAS Data (ARLAS)43:49 - Eye Opening Data for Early Career48:48 - TGS Projects & Careers51:37 - Conclusion  EPISODE TRANSCRIPTCaroline:00:12Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that explores the intersection of geoscience and technology. This is Caroline Brignac from the well data products group at TGS. In This episode we'll explore our well data products and how they prove to be critical datasets for any exploration and development program. So go ahead and we'll get started with introductions for today's podcast. We've got Jason Kegel with us. Jason why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself? Jason:00:39Sure. My name's Jason. I work with the geology group here at TGS. I'm a geologist I've been here for six years. I work pretty closely with our well data products and our seismic products. Caroline:00:50Awesome. Thanks Jason. We also have Ted Miranda with us. Ted, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Ted:00:55Sure. Thank you. Caroline. Ted Mirenda. So I'm with TGS. Well, data products group. I've been here for 10 years now. A primary task was to bring production data to TGS and commercialize that product. It's been a lot of work and exciting. Caroline:01:12That's awesome. I'm really excited about having Katie with us. She's a production geologists for a super major. Katie, welcome. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with TGS. Katie:01:21Thank you, Caroline. I am a recent graduate school graduate and I loved my time at TGS where I got to use Longbow and R360 and then I carried those things that I had learned and into my schoolwork in grad school and it's been awesome. Caroline:01:39So Katie, you started with us as an intern, correct? Katie:01:42Correct. Caroline:01:42That's awesome. Well, we're really excited to have you here and talk a little bit about what your experience with TGS, our products and how you use it in the industry. So one thing that we know a lot about TGS is that it's known as a seismic company. However, TGS offers a wide range of other products such as products in well data. Ted, would you mind telling us a little bit about the well data products division and how it's evolved over time? Ted:02:07Sure. I guess we can step back to 2002 when TGS officially acquired a little company called A2D that gave A2D's the resources to further go out and I believe in acquire Riley's electric log inventory. So that led to the largest commercial well log library. Other resources that TGS provided or enabled was the ability to digitize hard copies and raster logs to LAS. And that library has grown over time where I came into play now 10 years ago after growing the LAS library TGS made the the decision to what's next with well data, well, let's bring in production data. That's when I came into mix. We started building our production data library up. It's been a long challenging project, but it's really paid off. One of the things that critical decision we decided to do was not acquire any production data assets, but build that data from the ground floor up. That meant more work. But in the long run, it's a more valuable product. Caroline:03:25So when you talk about production data, what exactly are you talking about and what does that look like? Ted:03:30Well, we're talking about the full historical production record of every well in the United States. So when you think about different pieces of information that our clients use and need what the well has produced, the reservoir fluids captured from each wellbore is about as important a piece of information as you can have going forward. So we capture that information, really important to tie it to the proper wellbore and a really detailed well header record. There's a lots, a lot of other processes that we do with that as well to then provide the data to our clients. Caroline:04:16So we know that we have, Jason has some experience as well as Katie with this dataset. Would you mind telling us about how you guys use it in your role in the industry? Jason:04:25Sure. So I know at TGS we use the production data quite a bit, looking at our different mapping projects we have. So when we look across the entire, especially United States and look for new areas to shoot on shore seismic, we like to have a really good background information on what companies are actually producing, how much they produced in the past. Can a lot of times tell you where the, where the new plays are and it's always been said that where you found oil before you'll find oil again. And that's been proven over and over again. When we look at the Permian basin, which has been producing since, you know, the 1910, 1920s and today it's one of the biggest basins in the world and we're still finding oil there. So it's nice to really see those historical records of production and where people have gone. On top of that, the Longbow database gives you completion information so you can start really seeing where exactly within the geology has been drilled and how they have done it. So you can get some engineering insight into that as well. Over the years at TGS we've brought all that together to really start looking at new areas where clients want to go and where we can start bringing them seismic. Caroline:05:34So Katie, we knew that you started off as an intern here at TGS a few years ago and we know that you worked with Jason on his team to help sort of guide where we'd go next with our products. What was your experience with the production dataset and Longbow? Katie:05:48So I used the production and information during my project, both at school and at during internship to help me understand the reservoir better so that I could clear up any uncertainties that I was curious about. So for example, I use production data during my time at school to help me understand if there was any reserves left that were not taken out. Ted:06:19Yeah, I know a lot of our clients then use that data to look for bypass opportunities. Another one of the many capabilities of leveraging production data. Jason talked about moving into the completion data side of what we call completion data. Kind of led that evolution. You know, horizontal drilling, unconventional tight reservoirs, fracking, I mean that led to a whole new need for different attributes captured about a well record. So we identify those pretty early on. I had been collecting those and now provide that kind of information to our clients. Not just perf intervals. What is the, what is the producing interval subsurface depth, but the length of the lateral that's being completed and produced correlating production rates, any U R S 2000 foot laterals, another way to really do better well economics and evaluation of assets. So it's, it never ends, you know, the data needs are constantly evolving and changing as industry changes and we follow that path. Jason:07:38So Katie, you said that you use some of our production data with your thesis work, correct. And that was in the, in Louisiana, the Tuscaloosa Marine shale, right? Katie:07:47Yes. Jason:07:47So the Wells and the data that you used there, were they mostly conventional Wells or where we also tried to look at some of the unconventional Wells there too, to define that play that you are looking at. Katie:08:01Right. So I would say the majority, I also focused on the lower Tuscaloosa, which was mostly conventional Wells. Jason:08:09So those Wells, they helped you define that play area and then you had to go deeper and deeper into the log data. Correct. Trying to see exactly what the formation was made up. And you did a sort of a real exploration study of that lower Tuscaloosa Marine shale Longbow helped you kind of understand exactly where the production had become historically and where it might go now and where, where people are drilling currently in the Tuscaloosa Marine shale. Katie:08:39Right. And we also did that with the Austin chalk too. That was another one of our big projects. Jason:08:44Right. And then when you, in the group that was here all from the university of Lafayette worked with us, we also looked up into the Haynesville and looked at some of the smack over units using Longbow quite a bit, looking for trends in conventional plays historically and then seeing where those went unconventionally and if Longbow is the, the main generator of the majority of that data. Caroline:09:09So for those of you listening in who may not be familiar with Longbow is that is our our visualization tool that sits on top of our well performance database. Ted, would you like to add to that? Ted:09:19Yeah, that's right. So you know, production data is a fairly complex data model, right? So you need a tool to search and search your way through that data library, identify Wells that are appropriate to your project assignments so Longbow started out as really as that initial search engine. Hey, you're connecting to almost 5 million Wells, right? In a cloud based database and you're typically going in your assignment, you're going to identify subsets of Wells based on location, geology, formation, operator assets. Hey, examine these assets that are for sale and tell me if it's worth it, right? So Longbow provides that search engine. However, over the, the years and the time, we've incorporated quite a bit of analytics into the search engine. So we're really proud of that. It's if you can think of having a search engine connected to a live database of every well and include analytics, make a bubble in contour map on six month cumulative by zone, you know, all that in one. It saves time. So it's been exciting. We've had great feedback from clients and we are really focused on, Hey, what do our clients want? That's what we put in Jason:10:46When you go. When you talk about analytics Ted, what has been the biggest benefit of forecasting for Longbow? Ted:10:54Well, okay, so that is another good point. Production data being the historical production for the wellbore. Again, the reservoir fluid produced once me and my team, I felt we were comfortable and really good at acquiring that data. I always wanted to move into the forecasting realm as well. So we have added to the, to the product feature every single month. Now every, well all active wells get forecasted to their economic limit, giving our clients quick access to EURs. So from that perspective, I can look at historical data for an example like Katie gave about looking for bypass opportunities. Where did prior operators leave hydrocarbon in the ground with forecasting, I can look at, okay, what's the total proposed value of an asset? How much is that asset going to produce? How much remains that's already there in the, in the analytic tool. So, and again, the different analytic tools include besides mapping, probability graphs, scatter plotting and charts. It's the full gamut. Jason:12:08So we have, Katie who has worked with this data as an intern. I work with this data internally with project development and sales. And then I know that I've gone out with you before and we, we sell this data, we try to give our clients opportunities to use this data. Are our clients, strictly exploration type geologists or engineers or do we have other sort of venues where this data's important in the oil and gas industry? Ted:12:36You know, that's a good point. I mean, our clients cover all those gamuts. You know, one thing, again, with production data, it's a valuable piece of information across an integrated oil company. Enterprise exploration, geologists exploration is of course petroleum engineering department, reservoir engineers that have to forecast production. It's really become a big tool also in the A&D world investment banking A&D world at oil companies, business development. And that's what I like about production data. Everybody finds a use and value out of it, Jason:13:23Right? And it seems everybody wants to know how long that well is going to last and where the next well is next to it. It's going to produce as much that really hard to find that information from anything other than production data. Ted:13:33And what's, you know, what's, what's recently happened and I was looking at right, or like writing a paper on this topic. But you know, right now, most of the think tank forecast for supply, they're all like redoing those and lowering them, you know, the Unconventionals. And we, when we started doing our forecast models, we realized that the horizontal Wells had to be looked at differently. And the decline rates on those, those Wells now are, what would I say, exceeding what we thought they would be. Ted:14:08We had this, you know, unconventional production had made perhaps a real the world with the real comfortable setting of endless oil supply and and you see the think tanks now readjusting those forecasts. So our model changed as well. We're looking at studies and how long Unconventionals are really going to produce and readjusting the EURs. And does that also have quite a bit to do with parent child relationships and how they're stacking Wells within the reservoir? It does, and right now that's what everybody's trying to figure out. That is really challenging looking at spacing, refracking spacing, how does another child affect the, the, the parent well and etc. What is the proper spacing that we try and provide the data to our clients to help them do that? Jason:15:04Right. And in some of those cases you said before with our header products that we have, that really has led to Delineating some of the production data with the validated well header. Can you explain a little bit more about how the validated well header helps understand different laterals and how that traces back to production? Ted:15:25Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's another key point, I think what was attractive to building production data here at TGS? You know, you go out and collect production data and for the most part, I mean, when you're getting public production data, the reality is that data is really coming in at a surface level. I mean, what does the state regulator care about? They just want to know how much did operator produce. So your severance, you're paying severance tax below the surface, they're not so much concerned about which zone is that coming from in which borehole? So here at TGS we have, we can leverage our validated well header dataset, which is our proprietary header where we've gone in, looked at the subsurface and identified missing boreholes. So we are in the process of tying our production data now to that validated header. So really moving production data down to the, to the, what we call the 12 digit API level. And that's really making a difference to our clients. Jason:16:39I know it's helped internally where we've gone used the perforation information. Ted:16:43That's right. Yup. Jason:16:45And actually track the perforations. And I'm not sure if you, you might've done this with this, some in your internship, Katie, where we looked at the perforated intervals on the Wells and then when we are doing our cross sections, we would actually see exactly where the perforations were and see where that oil was coming from. And that helps in a lot of situations in basins where you, you don't know a lot about the basin or you're going somewhere new and you're mapping and we'd see, you know, you'd see the Austin chalk and the Buddha and the Eagleford and you try to wonder, well, where exactly in those formations are they getting the oil from? Without those perforations that we'd got from Longbow, we couldn't truly track that back. We've been doing that more and more with the help from interns when you were here a few years ago and also with our newer interns to, to really try to understand that and then provide that on another level through R360 to start understanding where these Wells are actually producing from, which in some states they don't, they don't provide that information. Ted:17:42That's right. And that that really is a really neat project. I know for me and my team at the, and Ted talking about the production data, leveraging Jason and the geoscientists and the interpretation type work you do on your workstations where we can take our production, our perfs, you guys load it in, match it up with the LAS, correlate that production to the actual producing zone. It takes a while to do that, but we're doing that in projects going across different basins and it's really exciting. Jason:18:15No, it's been, it's been very valuable for us that in some of the test information that Longbow has also has in some states like Oklahoma and Texas, let's say, they don't have produced water for a lot of the production. So the only things that you can look back are some of the actual, that the test data that you have where you can find that water. And then a lot of these areas where you're running analytics on some of these Wells to see when they watered out or how much water they have per volume of oil. That's the only place you can get it. And then when you max that match that back to the perforated interval, you can really start understanding some more about those horizons and how much oil or how much oil you have left, but also how much water you're getting out, which is a huge issue right now with a lot of the unconventionals is water not only how much water you're putting in to stimulate if that's what you're doing, but how much formation water you're actually taking out and that could be a, that could be that the factor in having a well that's a good well or not good at all. Caroline:19:19So I know we've touched on production data and the well performance database that TGS offers, but TGS also offers other data like well logs, various types of well logs our validated well header that Jason just mentioned. Katie, I'm curious about your experience as a student getting data from TGS. Can you tell us a little bit of what that was like and how you use other well data with production data to help solve some of the, the issues you guys were running into? Katie:19:48I'm sure. Well, TGS was really helpful because like Jason said, if Jason and Ted said to the state, you don't have to provide good data to the public. So TGS' well logs, their production data was far superior to anything that I saw. So it definitely helped not just at school cause I use this product at UL but I also got to use it in our projects. So it made the uncertainties that were, we were curious about less uncertain. Right. Cause the subsurface is always uncertain. Caroline:20:26So to follow to build on that, Jason, how do you, how do you work more with well logs and production data together, especially when you're working with a group of young interns like Katie and her, her fellow interns Jason:20:39Well one of the things that we do in our group quite a bit is either look for for new areas or sort of redefine basins that have already had had exploration. So the main thing we do when we do that as we get as many well logs as we possibly can. So that's the, the LAS that we have for those areas. Working for TGS is nice because we have access to quite a bit of data. So we pull all those together and we start just doing cross-sections and fence diagrams and make picking our formation tops so that we have a real good general understanding of the basin. As we're doing that, we're also looking at the production data. So each one of those Wells is either a producer or not a producer or maybe it was just a stratigraphic exploration well. But the reason those Wells exist are to make somebody money. So hopefully they're all producers. Jason:21:32So we learned as much from a dry hole as we do from a hole that's not dry. That's where the production data comes in really handy cause we can see exactly how much oil they got out of that well when it was drilled, when it was plugged and abandoned. Some of the issues that might've gone on with it. So we can understand from looking at just some of the well logs themselves than the caliper per se, to see where you had the whole breakup and see where you might've had engineering issues with that well, where they might have crossed faults that might've caused to loss of production in certain areas. And we can tie that back using production to see exactly how these reservoirs work. And we can track that around better to see where explorationists, might need help delineating new fields or new areas. And that's where the seismic comes in with TGS to where we can try to get the seismic out to help limit some of these problems that were we might be seeing in some of the Wells. Caroline:22:30Out of curiosity I know that we offer a long range of historic production data. Recently we just acquired a company called Lasser that goes back far beyond the 1970s. As a geologist, would you say that having a larger dataset going back further in time is more beneficial for you to help solve problems? Jason:22:54Absolutely. So the one thing we've always ran into is not enough data, right? We always want more data. We want to see the complete picture of the entire basin. So having that data that goes farther back in time, that historic production data really helps because we have a lot of those well logs that are sort of historic historics our well logs and our Las don't stop at 1970 or earlier. The production data depending on state isn't necessarily at a strict cutoff of 1970 but that historic data really helps with that production to really start understanding how those wells were drilled. And like I said before exactly what was it producer and what wasn't producer and if it was producing, how long did it produce for? There's been lots of of technology advances that have really increased how much oil you can get out of the ground or gas you can get of the ground. Jason:23:45That's on a purely engineering basis and you can start to see that in the production data, but you can really start seeing that in some of the LAS data when you start looking at the curves and understanding some of the petrophysics behind the Wells. And not only that, you start understanding the basin. So when you look at some of these really old wells, a lot of them are really shallow just to sort of understand that's as far as they could drill to. That's where the technological limit was. But depending on the basin, some, some people in the forties and 50s had drilled all the way to basement. You really want those type of data points when you're understanding the entire basin. The deeper you understand the basin, the more history you can put into it. The more basin modeling you can do. If you can understand the basin from initial infill to present day and the erosion intervals that have been between there. We see that quite a bit in our base in temperature models, which is one of the products that we do that builds off of our LAS data. Caroline:24:43What other tools, interpretation tools do you use internally that TGS helps provide or provides to our clients? Jason:24:49Well firstly I mentioned the basin temperature models. That's one that we, we helped build and we provide to clients and that's a product where we look at the entire basin. We pick the tops in it from 2000 to 3000 Wells from the LAS. And then we do basin temperature modeling on that entire basin with grids and horizons, start understanding the the basin from completed from basement all the way up to the top and understanding the infill. We also provide other products, sort of worldwide called our facies map browser. And this is mainly offshore, but this is looking at sequence stratigraphy within offshore basins. Jason:25:29This one we also use well data and seismic data where we can and integrate the two of them to, to have a real good understanding and picture of the basin. So the geologists that use this data can jump right in to the basin and have a real good working knowledge of what's going on there. One thing in the industry, I've been in this industry for eight years now and I've seen lots of mergers and you know, lots of layoffs unfortunately with people, but groups shrink and grow all the time. And when they grow, people need to jump into new basins they've never been. So one thing that we provide with some of our well data products like the facies map browser and the basin temperature models easily help people easily get acclimated with basins they may have never worked. It's a, it's a real quick and easy way to understand the stratigraphy and understand some, some components of the basin you might not have thought about before. Jason:26:25Then we've been moving on with the basin temperature model is that the background into TOC models. So actually looking at total organic carbon within the same basin using the background of our basin temperature model and then working with core labs to really understand some of our vitrinite reflectance and core data points. So that's the new thing we're doing particularly in the Permian basin. Ted:26:48And I want to add another point on Lasser that Lasser acquisition, which was a, again, exciting for our team. Jason talked about the need for historical data. Sure. acquiring that data set. Now, the only way you could really replicate that public data is if you went to physically went to the individual railroad commission, district offices and loaded up a bunch of microfiche. So that data's digital. We've got it now. What's really neat is we're running it through our modern QA and QC processes. So adding data production volumes in Texas all the way back to the 30s, and then taking further, taking the lease level production data and allocating it to a well level. Nobody in industry is doing that right now from nobody from a vendor perspective. So that project that's ongoing and will be completed before the end of the year. Having historical production back to the 30s allocated to the well level, excited about that and proud of our team to get that done. Caroline:27:55Not to ask a silly question, but what is microfiche is that what you said? Ted:28:01I said microfiche, yeah. Jason:28:01You don't remember Microfiche? (Laughter) Caroline:28:02You're talking to a millennial. Jason:28:04I feel so old. Ted:28:06The point there is the data is not digital, it's manual, it's on microfilm. Microfiche it's lots and lots of hours of labor to recapture that data in database format. And now that we've got it, it's going to be real exciting. Jason:28:27My experience with microfiche was always in elementary school going to the library. So at the library they always had stacks of microfiche that had historical newspapers from the past and you can still find them and they're really, they're almost like little slides like you remember, do you remember what slides looked like? (Laughter) No, it's done. That's true. It's already 2020. [inaudible] There was a special microfiche reader to see them. And you flip through each one of them. But that's how they always documented historical papers. So we'd go back and have to do research projects and you'd have to go find your little microfiche from the library. And when you looked it up, you would slide through and it was like a little projector screen that read the fiche from like the little, little tiny film and scrolled through the little film. So it is almost like a negative Ted:29:17It's a picture of a document. So I'm not the only millennial in the room. So Katie, I'm gonna make a safe assumption that you did not know what that was? Katie:29:23Nope, no, I had no idea what that was, but I have seen it in movies. So thank you for that visual like connected the two for sure. Ted:29:31That's right. But that, that tells you how you know how- Caroline:29:37How hard to find it, how hard to find that data is. Ted:29:39That's right. There weren't computerized records back then, but we still need the data Caroline:29:44Absolutely. Katie:29:44So you've talked a lot about onshore, so do you offer the same kinds of products offshore as well or what do you, how does it go from onshore to offshore? Jason:29:58That's a good question, actually, because with TGS and with the amount of data that we have onshore as really dense area of log data per se, so we can do areas like the Permian, the Eagleford or the DJ basin and fill them in with 5,000 Wells and pick tops and all 5,000 of those Wells. And they all have temperature points. So we can do our base in temperature models there. Offshore, it gets a little bit more difficult because there are, the data's not so close together and offshore particularly say in the Gulf of Mexico, the geology gets a little more tricky, particularly with basin temperature models because you start dealing with more salt. You start dealing with just having the water to sediment differences that you'll- we understand pretty well, but the more well data you have, the more we can make those interpretive products. Jason:30:55So we have, sort of, different products offshore and like I mentioned before, we have the facies map browser is almost exclusively offshore because we can do that along mainly 2D lines, so long 2D lines that go over large areas and are- usually have a few wells connected to them in exploration areas. So the newest one of those is what we're trying to start now in Mexico and the Mexican side of the Gulf of Mexico where a few years ago we shot a really large 185,000 kilometer 2D survey called Gigante. So we interpreted that whole survey and we shot gravity and magnetics over it. So we actually have a gravity and magnetics model that we've built on that area that helps a lot in exploration, but we've also interpreted all the seismic to pick certain horizons. We would like to go a few steps further and actually understand your stratigraphic facies and your sequence stratigraphy that's in there. Jason:31:56And that's what we're, we're trying to do now with the Mexican side of the Gulf of Mexico. And it's a little bit easier there because there's less wells there and a lot of the operators that are moving in there since they opened up Mexico aren't there. So they don't have as big a knowledge base as they do in the U S Gulf of Mexico. And that big large knowledge base in the U S Gulf of Mexico from the operators that have been there for 40 or 50 years has really limited multi-client type interpretation studies. Because say the Exxons or the Shells or the Chevrons have been in these basins for so long, especially the Gulf of Mexico that they have the working knowledge of those basins and they train their employees on that pretty easily. So they don't necessarily need an outside company like TGS to sort of give them the boost or the the heads up or the, the first step to get into a basin. Jason:32:53Whereas in other basins around the world where we have facies, map browsers, we've had them for a while, we have new companies coming in and going more often. So they sort of like having that extra layer of knowledge that we can offer on shore. In the Gulf of Mexico though we did do a post-well analysis, which is just looking at specific wells and I think we have a little over a hundred now and they're either dry holes or or discoveries and they sort of show the stratigraphy they show why it was a dry hole or why was it a discovery. We match that up with seismic and certain areas so you can see the structures that were being drilled at the time. So we do have that. And then in the Mexico side of Mexico and the Gulf of Mexico, we have production data on both sides now. Jason:33:41So we actually have the contract with the Mexican government to provide not only the seismic but the well log data in Mexico, but also the production data in Mexico. On the U.S. Gulf, we have the contract to deliver log data. So companies that drill in the U.S. Gulf of Mexico, they actually send their log data to TGS. We hold it for the 26 month timeframe. And then we clean that data up. We provide our LAS plus package. We provide that back to the BOEM or BSCE, the government entity that sort of controls the Gulf of Mexico. And then we also provide that to any other company that would like to purchase it. So we're the - TGS is actually, we've had that contract for a little over 10 years now and we've just renewed it this year. Katie:34:34So like how much coverage do you have in the Gulf of Mexico? Data-Wise. Jason:34:38Data-wise? So all of it really. So with the, with the recent acquisition of spectrum, we now have 2D coverage that extends all the way from Florida to the Rio Grande Valley really. So we have 2D coverage that covers, there are, TGS is a seismic company. Our core seismic area has always sort of been 3D seismic anyway, has always sort of been the Mississippi Canyon, DeSoto Canyon, Atwater Valley area. We have lots of 3D seismic. We're currently shooting seismic there. We'll just finished up some new nodal surveys there and doing reprocessing. But we have 2D and 3D coverage across the whole area and well data we have all of it. We have every well that's ever been drilled in the Gulf of Mexico. Ted:35:27On the production data song for Gulf of Mexico. The data's really, really nice from that perspective. I mean every well is reported oil, gas and water, monthly production. Well tests are extensive in the Gulf of Mexico. Perhaps the federal government does a better job of reporting well test data, making sure operators are testing those Wells annually and semiannually and getting that data out to public. So you also get access to certain pressure data in there, you know, flowing tubing pressure, bottomhole pressure, et cetera. So that data sets we like working with that. And now on the Mexico side, you know, we've got full coverage of Mexico petroleum industry. There's about 21,000 Wells with production in Mexico. About 1100 of those are offshore and we have captured and calculated monthly production for all of those Wells. So that was a fun project. Learning to translate certain wellheader attributes from Spanish to English that was fun to do. Converting units of measurement down there from a, you know, average daily rates to total monthly production. Bottom line is that data's now standardized in our library monthly oil and barrels in Mexico, monthly gas and MCF water in barrels. And,looking at the data, there are world-class wells in Mexico, so I think the continued release of data from Mexico. Hopefully we'll stay on track there with the, the government releasing data. Like I said, there's there's been some really gigantic flow rates down there, particularly offshore and no reason to think there's not great opportunity there. Seismic Katie:37:36Where's your seismic that you just shot in Mexico. Where does the location lies? Jason:37:40So the, the 2D seismic that's there, the original Gigante is all offshore and covers the entire Mexican Gulf of Mexico 2D. So it covers everything and it even goes sort of around the horn of the Yucatan near Belize. So it covers everything sort of almost into the Caribbean. We've also been doing looking at reprocessing efforts to extend some of our, to extend the seismic onshore to offshore and the Sureste and Tampico areas. And then we're also looking at 3D programs as well. Katie:38:15Very nice. Jason:38:16So there's quite a bit there. And that's not the only place that we have seismic or well log data. So TGS is actually always, I always try to remind me, we have well log data worldwide. So we have data. Do you know Russia and Africa and Australia and Malaysia all over Europe. And all over South America as well. And seismic too. I sort of focus on Western hemisphere so I know a little bit more about that part, but that's still quite a quite a large area sometime. And we're we're, we're looking at wells and seismic all across, both North and South American. Ted:38:53Don't forget Canada. Jason:38:55And Canada too, we have quite a bit of seismic in Canada as well. Caroline:39:00Nice. So one question I have for the table, we know that as TGS is predominantly a seismic company, but we also offer well data. How does that, how does that really help our clients when we offer two very different and unique datasets together? Jason:39:19I think the biggest part of that is making a complete geologic picture for explorationists. So you need the seismic to really sort of understand areas where we don't have well data and that well data really helps the seismic become better. One of the good examples of that is in some of our reprocessing efforts we're doing offshore, we're incorporating as much well data as we can, particularly Sonic data so that we can really understand the velocity models. And really make sure that we can tie those velocity models when they come out and with our seismic comes out in depth that our wells tie perfectly with them. The more well data we have, the better our seismic is going to be at the end of the day. We've always tied a few Wells that we can here and there, but since TGS has so much well data, it's a real benefit to our clients to be able to use that in the seismic processing and in reprocessing as more wells come out. Caroline:40:20So I'm just curious, you know, we are now offering a new product in the well data group. That's our analytics ready LAS that basically allows us to offer even more data. How do you feel about the machine learning algorithms that we're using in forecasting or with well logs? How do you feel about using that as geologists, Katie and Jason? Jason:40:42So one of the things that we've noticed quite a bit with this is you get a really nice big picture and particularly with analytics ready, we like to call it just ARLAS AR-LAS is that that big picture of that first presentation you can get, particularly when it comes to velocity models in Sonic where you don't have seismic. So one of the great images, and I don't know if I can explain this well through through radio, but one of the great images that you can have is with regular well data you have lots of lots of holes. So we didn't drill every place we could and then every place we drilled through time, we didn't do every log we could do. So a lot of the well logs that we have, particularly on onshore might have one or two curves. They might have a resistivity and a gamma ray or some of the older ones just might have an SP curve. Jason:41:32What can start doing with AR or the analytic ready Las is incorporate sort of Sonics into all of those logs and start understanding where we have those deviations in Sonic across the whole area where it hasn't been drilled. So from a big picture, it really helps you understand how that would tie together where you might want to drill next or what might, what interesting features you wouldn't see where a well isn't drilled without having seismic. And if you have seismic then you can tie them both together as well to kind of have a better understanding of of your depth processing. Ted:42:13And I might add onto that AI question back on the production forecasting a challenge. So we're offering both methodologies now of course we have our, you know, our traditional hyperbolic curve fit type forecasting algorithms that work well and offering the physics based you know, probabilistic spread forecasting new. Your question is how do we think about that? It's like, how does the industry think about that? I know everybody's talking about it. Everyone's trying to figure it out. To me, getting a million forecast in a couple of seconds is impressive. Right? And getting that full spread on each, well a P 10 through a P 99 forecast right at your fingertips. It's powerful stuff. Caroline:43:07Yeah. I'd be really curious to see where machine learning and artificial intelligence takes TGS in the future with other types of derivative products that we end up discovering and producing and really making sure that we're getting these to the industry to reduce cycle time. So I think that's pretty cool. Jason:43:22Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think we're, we're already moving in that direction with filling in log curves and in the seismic side trying to understand different seismic bodies. So using machine learning and AI to serve as a tool to understand where salt is in a quicker, more timely fashion or to even start understanding easier ways to define horizons or define some amplitude attributes as well. Jason:43:49[To Katie] So you've seen our data and played with our data and hopefully in the future is you're, you know, experiencing your geology career, you'll get to use it much more. Ted:44:01I think she's just scratched the surface with our data, right. I know all that data. Jason:44:06You had the unique opportunity to use it to come into our -come into the company and see what it was like to have that much data at your fingertips. Can you tell us a little bit about how, what that was like and how, how that's different from then to school to now that you're, you're in the industry. Katie:44:24So I came into TGS knowing nothing, well, not knowing nothing, but you know, minimal. You think you, every time you start somewhere you like think you know something, but you really don't, which I've learned again third time. Ted:44:37Right? Katie:44:37So at TGS, I wouldn't say it was just, I learned how to work with all this data, which was overwhelming at first. It was like I learned how to, I don't know, act, not just like socially in an office, right? But I also learned like what's important, what's not important. It's easy to get bogged down in the details when you go from zero to 100 real quick. Caroline:45:03So you've really had a unique perspective. Especially compared to a lot of us at TGS, you started off in an internship with us getting into the data and learning the data, applying the data. Right. And then I believe maybe you've even used it in your thesis. Katie:45:20Right. Caroline:45:20And now that you're in the industry, what has that looked like for you? Ted:45:26How about, how about how do you access data being an industry now? Katie:45:31When I've looked at data, it tells me, it makes me feel comfortable. It clears up uncertainties.. It's not telling me what's going on, but at least I'd like have more of a general idea. So when I look at these large amounts of data that I get for a project, let's say like I did in grad school, it's okay, I have this data. What does the data tell me? Does it tell me if it's pinching out? Does it tell me if it's, you know, this big chunk or maybe the depositional environment. That's what I looked at a lot in well logs the petrophysics. Jason:46:08No, it's understandable. You get thrown a lot of data in these situations and it's how you put that together, how you can efficiently use it. And that's something that we're always trying to make easier for people. It helps in a lot of situations, particularly in, in super major type of companies or in a lot of different companies, even smaller companies that they have geo techs that efficiently use our data before they give it to you. Right? So a lot of times you never, you'll never get to see the first part of, you know, where did this data come from because it all just ends up on your desktop. Right? Katie:46:42Right. So like I, what I liked about my experience I guess at TGS is I saw the beginnings, right? What a geotech would put it in. So I like got to see that visual fresh or put my own spin on it when we were using Longbow. So making those bubble plots or looking at URs and decline curves. I don't have, I don't, I haven't gotten that experience yet, but I'm a Guppy. Caroline:47:10So it was like you were getting access to data sets such as the, you know, the EURs and the forecasting database that you probably didn't necessarily have access to while you were working on your masters. Katie:47:21Right. And didn't know about until it came to TGS. Ted:47:26And the ability to build that project from scratch. I imagine a lot of times now in industry, you walk in and sit down and there are gigantic projects already existing and workflows established as opposed to like starting at the beginning. Katie:47:46Right. Which is overwhelming. Like I remember Jason was like, Hey, y'all are going to map from Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas. That was very overwhelming. Now I just, you know, you get a project and it, someone's already, most of the time, I don't know picked through it. So you don't, it's not very fresh. Jason:48:09But now you're not afraid of the deep end of the pool. Katie:48:10I don't know about that... Jason:48:10Right. We threw you right in the deep end and I, you can swim. You're ready to go. Katie:48:18Oh no. I'm still learning. Jason:48:18Well that's good. Never wanna stop learning. Ted:48:22We're all still learning. Katie:48:22Right. But I'm really still learning. As a new worker bee. Jason:48:30So Katie, is there anything we haven't seen you in a little while? I know that you're, you're in Louisiana now. Is there anything that you want to ask us that you're interested in from a, from your perspective after you've graduated and are now moving onto bigger and better things that might help you in the future? Katie:48:48Maybe not something that would- maybe wouldn't help me in the future, but also help other people that are looking for jobs. Is, are y'all looking for employment? Like looking to employ anyone or what does that look like? It sounds like you're doing a lot of work. So do you have people to fill these positions or are you, how does that go for y'all? Do you even know? Jason:49:10Well, that's one of those great HR questions where, you know, we're always, we're always just busy enough to need new people. (Laughter) Caroline:49:20And I think with, you know, new departments that were growing especially new datasets like Ted is talking about Mexico and Canada, I feel like it really helps to position us to grow, you know, as a company as a whole. So opportunities are always always coming up. Yeah. Jason:49:36I know particularly with our internship program, we're always looking for, you know, young, exciting new talent that can, that can come in and help us out. But also like you did learn about data from sort of the bottom up and take that knowledge base to other companies. So we don't only like training people to come and stay with us or we're perfectly happy bringing in interns and having them go out in the world and and learn something from us that they can bring somewhere else. Katie:50:06Oh sorry. I would say that that's why I like had not, I think that working at TGS was nice for others to see cause they knew that I had experience I guess with production data, which is a cool talking point I think. Caroline:50:22And just to build off of that, Ted has done a really great job building this new initiative, which is getting our well performance data in the universities to work with people like you, Katie, while you were getting your masters to make sure that we're able to provide data to other other programs and get geologists or young geologists access to data sets that they wouldn't have or wouldn't be familiar with whenever they're entering the workforce. Ted:50:48That's right. So, you know, we're happy to donate donate our products, donate production data and Longbow to the universities. As you know, at ULL they brought it into the geoscience and engineering groups. And now we're sitting on the, what the 20 workstations in the lab and part of the curriculum. So it's exciting at the same time, giving the students access to these data products learning actual, you know, working product tools. When they do get hired and hit the, hit the workforce, they're ahead of the game and ready to go. Now, from my selfish perspective, it helps to get feedback and make the products better. So it's a win win for both. Caroline:51:37Well, thanks everyone for coming out today and having this conversation, you know, hanging out, covering a lot of really awesome topics, kind of, you know, exploring where TGS is headed next, where we've been, where we're going. Katie, you know, especially thanks to you for coming all the way from New Orleans to sit with us and kind of give us your insight and your opinions and let us know how it's, how the journey has been for you. So thanks, Jason. Thanks Ted looking forward to the next, the next episode. Katie:52:01Thank you for having me. Jason:52:03Yeah, thanks Katie, it's been great Ted:52:04Thank you.

“Sin is any act, thought, desire, emotion, word, or deed, or the absence of these, that displeases God.” Mennonite Brethren Confession of Faith Salvation works in the past, the present and the future:- Past – the penalty of our sins has been dealt with- Present – the power of sins is broken by the Holy Spirit- Future – we shall be delivered from the very presence of sin “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16So, what about it? Are you ready to trade your sins for His salvation? Are you ready to believe that when God said that if you confess, He will forgive, that He meant it? Watch the entire Service on https://youtu.be/qrKfFLo2pec Preached at Scott Street Church on Sunday, November 11, 2018

The Problem Of Wineskins. Luke 5 NIV 37And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. 38No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better.’” 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 NLT For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:14-21 NIV 14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.