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In this special student-hosted episode of the “Weinberg in the World” podcast, student host Ashley Guo interviews JJ, a 1997 Northwestern graduate in psychology who now works at Microsoft. JJ shares his journey from initially pursuing a pre-med path to discovering his passion for psychology through an Intro to Psych class with Professor David Uttal. He discusses his struggles with organic chemistry and how psychology felt more natural to him. JJ also talks about his diverse coursework, including Russian and Eastern literature, history, and art classes, which enriched his undergraduate experience and allowed him to explore various interests. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jjguajardo/ Transcript: Ashley: Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with JJ who graduated from Northwestern in 1997 with a major in psychology. He is currently at Microsoft. Thank you so much for being here with us today. JJ: Well, I'm happy to be here. Thanks. Ashley: We're excited to hear that about your work at Microsoft. Before we do that, we'd love to hear more about your time at Northwestern and what drew you to study psychology initially. JJ: Yeah, good question. I kind of have a funny journey through Northwestern, although probably not super atypical given what I've heard. When I got to Northwestern as a bright-eyed freshman, I was pre-med. I was going to be a medical doctor. That was my path, so I was very excited about going that way. I was trying to figure out what major that I would want to take on it because I didn't think I wanted to do a straight biology major, physics, or something like that, so I was just playing around a little bit. One of my friends, upperclassmen, suggested... He was pre-med, and he was taking psychology classes. He's like, "It's actually a pretty cool major for pre-meds." That's interesting. So I took an Intro to Psych class with David Uttal, and I loved it. I was fascinated by the subject matter. It was one of those moments in time when you're like, "I'm actually kind of okay at this." I was definitely struggling in the pre-med classes, especially when I got to organic chemistry, which absolutely crushed me. I just couldn't quite grasp that kind of subject matter. Whereas, the psychology classes I was taking, between Intro, I took a developmental psychology class with David Uttal as well, and then other ones, it just sort of clicked. It just worked well, and it felt like I didn't have to try super hard. It sounds weird, but I didn't have to try super hard to do well. That's not because it's easy. It's just because it was kind of coming easy to me, which is weird. So I thought that was a good sign. As I continued to struggle in organic chemistry and continued to really fall in love with the subject matter in the psychology courses I was taking, it just felt like a natural thing to stop doing the pre-med track and pursue psychology from there. Then, yeah, I just jumped in head first and took a bunch of different courses. Obviously majored in it. I worked in a lab with Dr. Uttal for a couple years doing hands-on research with the kiddos in the lab in developmental psychology. Yes, that's how I got into it, and was very, very happy to do so. Ashley: Wow, that's amazing to hear. I also took Intro to Psych and really loved the class because I'm a cognitive science major, so that resonates a lot. JJ: That's awesome. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It just felt natural, and it just worked. Ashley: Is there any other classes that you took or extracurriculars that you felt like gave you even more chance to explore psychology? JJ: Oh, interesting. It was funny. I actually took a bunch of, this is kind of weird, Russian, Eastern lit classes- Ashley: Cool. JJ: ... and history, sort of random because one of my friends was taking one, and I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds like fun." I had a couple different professors, I can't remember the one's name, but they were just absolutely fascinating. It's one of those kind of situations where, while the subject matter is interesting in and of itself, when somebody is passionate about teaching it and they have so much more to add, it just makes you more excited and interested. So I took way more classes in that subject than I thought I would've normally, which is kind of cool. Then I was also able to take a few art classes, which was really cool. I took some drawing classes later on in my time at Northwestern. That was really fun, and it let me explore the more creative side. I just loved taking a wide variety of things at Northwestern. I think the way that our curriculum was set up and the opportunities that it afforded were awesome, just to be able to explore various topics that I might not have done otherwise. Ashley: Oh, I see. I noticed that you also continued to pursue PhD. Can you share with us what led you to that decision? JJ: Yeah, yeah. Like I said before, I was doing research in the lab, so I was doing hands-on work, and I really found it fascinating. Then one summer, the summer between my junior and senior year, I got some grant to continue doing research over the summer, which was great, as part of this program and had a really great time doing that. I could run my own research and stuff. Ashley: Wow. JJ: Really, again, it just felt like a natural fit. I was already okay at it, and I liked it. So going into my senior year, I was not sure what I was going to do, to be honest with you. I figured I'd go get a job somewhere and not knowing what I was going to. But talking to Dr. Uttal, he was very encouraging of looking at grad schools. At the time, I was pretty ignorant about them. I didn't know what that would entail. I didn't know how much it would cost and if it was feasible for me and everything. But he reassured me that there were certainly grants and fellowships available and that maybe I was a pretty good candidate for some schools. So I went ahead and applied to various programs that were doing some really interesting developmental work, developmental psychology work, a few around the Midwest. Then eventually the University of Chicago, I got into there and just fell in love with the school and the program. It looked awesome. They gave me a full fellowship to go there with a stipend, so it was a no-brainer. So I just jumped straight in from undergrad to grad school. I studied there for five years and got my PhD in developmental psych, studying small children and infants. My eventual thesis was on nine-month old babies, so a very different subject matter than I'm dealing with now. But it was a great time. I'm really happy to have pursued that and finish the degree. Ashley: Wow. I see. How did you found your first job after PhD? JJ: That was kind lucky. It was probably my late third, early fourth year of grad school when I realized that I didn't want to pursue academia as a career. I really liked what I was doing, but I didn't think I would love it enough to do it for my life. In complete transparency, the University of Chicago is a great program, and there were some really amazing people coming out of the program. Folks who were older than me, were a couple years ahead of me, were on the job market with amazing CVs and really a great list of publications and just fantastic candidates, and they were having a hard time getting jobs. They were getting jobs, academic jobs, in places that I just couldn't ever see myself going to or being happy living in some of these places. I want to have a little more agency about where I ended up. I figured that academia was not going to let me have that agency. It was going to dictate where I go, so I decided it wasn't going to be the route I pursued. So I started thinking about non-academic jobs, but I again didn't have a whole lot of... not support, it's not fair, but just a lot of people around me didn't really know that world because they were all academics. At the time, the University of Chicago didn't have a very good system for helping people like me looking at non-academic stuff, although they've done a great job now, and that's a whole other subject. I was looking at jobs. I had something lined up through a friend in Chicago doing some market research. But then happened to look at a job on this old website called Monster.com. It's where you'd find jobs back in the day. I saw something about, "Do you like video games, and do you like working with kids?" I was like, "Yes, and yes. That's awesome." Love video games because I was playing a lot of PlayStation at the time. So I applied. It was with the group who I currently work with now, Xbox Research. I think back in the day we were called Games User Research. This was back in 2002, so a long time ago. I was very excited to get an interview, phone interviews, and I ended up getting the job. It was just a vendor role, which means that I was not working for Microsoft. I was a contractor contracting to Microsoft, but I was happy to do that. I figured I'd come out to Seattle for a year and try it out, and then maybe ended up back in Chicago where my family was. But on a personal note, I came to Seattle, and I met my future now-wife six months after being here, and I was never going back. So I've stayed 22 years now. So that's how I got that role back in the day. Ashley: Wow, wow. So you didn't really decide to, I guess, officially move to Seattle when you first left? JJ: Yeah, it was just on a whim. "Yeah, I'm going to go out there." I took a flight with a backpack and my golf clubs. Then my parents drove out in a van with a bunch of my stuff. Again, I figured it'd be about a year or so and had to move it back, but never went back. Ashley: Never went back, never went back. Oh, I see. I'm curious, your previous, I guess, time either in Northwestern or UChicago, how does what you learned in school or maybe outside of school apply or not apply to your current job? JJ: It's an interesting question. It's kind of funny. In psychology, I think about that major and why it worked well for me and everything and what I loved about it. I think at its core, it's like, as psychologists, we observe human behavior and try to make some sense of it. That's just kind of what we do. That translates perfectly to the work I do. So in my job as a games user researcher, we watch people and we talk to people as they play our games, as they use the systems, and try to make sense of it. That's our role. That's at the most basic level of stuff. But when I think about when we're in the lab, like a usability lab, for example, where we're literally watching somebody play through a game or through part of a system, and we're watching to see where they succeed or where they struggle, and we're talking to them and we're trying to get to the root cause of what's actually happening, why they're actually struggling, what is it that they're not seeing properly, or, to be more precise, what have we failed to convey as designers, we have to use those techniques that we learned in psychology to drill down to the root cause of an issue, to really question in the right way, in a non-leading way, don't be biased and lead people in the wrong direction. So we use all those kinds of tools that we learned in psych. Then on the other end, when we're doing the analysis, same kind of thing, like all the data that we look at, the way we're going to interpret it, the tools we use to analyze it, that's all from the psychological training, the methods, and experimental backgrounds that we have. So I got all that from school, which is great. That training that I got at Northwestern, and then certainly in my later program, created the foundation and the basis for me to be able to do my job successfully. So I use it quite a bit. Ashley: Wow. JJ: Now, I don't use the developmental psychology stuff a whole lot given that I don't work with babies, but I did for a while. There were some games and products that we were developing for kids that I actually was brought in to do work on because of my background, so I was able to use some of the developmental psychology knowledge and domain expertise there as well. Ashley: Wow, that's amazing. Because I know not everyone can get to use what they learned in school in their actual job- JJ: Yeah, [inaudible 00:13:52]. Ashley: ... so that's amazing to hear. Were there any challenges that you faced when you first came out of UChicago going into your job? JJ: I think probably the biggest challenge or biggest surprise, I'd say, was the speed at which you work in business. In grad school over the course of five years, I ran two big research projects, one for my master's and for my PhD, and each of those had sub-components, of course. Then I had ran a couple of side projects with my PI at the time as well. I probably had four or five things that I did over the course of my time there. So you just do the math, and it's, on average, about a year for a project. Then you go to industry. You're given a problem to try to solve or try to get some insight on it, and you got about a week to do it. It's a very different pace. So I think that was surprising but exciting as well. I think there was a moment when you realize that this is non-academic research. You're not going to try to publish in Nature or some other journal. This is to try to answer a business decision and give a team information to be able to make some changes to the product to improve it on a pretty quick timeframe, and that's all you need to do. I think once you realize that, the stakes are a little bit different. You can adjust accordingly and speed up your work and everything. So that was a big surprise, though, was the timelines and the speed at which we operate. Ashley: I see. I guess I know that the speed is definitely going to be different after school compared to during school, but a week compared to a year is very- JJ: It's different. But at the same time, the scope is much different, like I said, and the stakes are different. I do think that the training that I got at Northwestern and UChicago certainly gave me the ability to look at data and make sense of it relatively quickly and communicate that stuff, those insights back to the team with speed and accuracy as well. So I was well-trained to be able to do that. Ashley: I see. Gathering and then analyzing and then communicating that, those are really important parts. Were there any project that you've worked on that you really enjoyed? JJ: At Microsoft? Ashley: Mm-hmm. JJ: Yeah, I've got a bunch that I just loved doing. One of the best parts about my role, my job is that we do have freedom to... We have to answer questions and work with our partners and make sure we're fulfilling that need, but there's also a certain level of freedom within that. I kind of do it the way you need to do it or you want to do it, which is pretty cool. So a few projects I worked on, one was on the Forza Motorsport series, which is the racing games. That's part of Microsoft, part of Xbox Game Studios. They had been building this series of games for a decade or so. I think we were going into the sixth version of the game. I just took over working on the project, the product. I was talking to the creative director of the studio, and I was asking, what are his big questions? What does he want to know? One of the things he want to know was, who plays our game and why? Well, that's a big question, and I thought a pretty easy answer. It's like, "Well, people who play racing games play your game, or they like cars." But that wasn't going to satisfy him. So I went and did a bunch of research using data analytics, so the big, big numbers, as well as survey and interview, so kind of a combination of methods, to put together a set of gaming profiles, so the kinds of people that play the game, the motivations they have for playing the game. Someone might want to play the games just because they really enjoy playing by themselves and running through an entire single-player campaign in a game and play 60 hours of the game, win all these different championships. That might be a motivation to play. Someone else might be motivated just by playing against other people. They want to play with their friends online, and that's the motivation. Someone else might be motivated just because they've got 15 minutes to blow off some steam after work and before they need to do something else. They just jump into a race, and they want to just drive really fast for a little bit of time and drive some cool car. So we ended up finding these different groups with different motivations. That ended up informing the next versions of the game and how we actually built the game. So it was pretty cool. The design team, we built a lot of assets and resources around these kinds of profiles, these kinds of people, and then we build the game to meet those needs. So we're like, "We're going to build for this kind of person, this campaign kind of player. We're going to build for this multiplayer person, these various things." So you could really see our fingerprints all over the next versions of the game, which was really cool, really rewarding. You don't get to see that kind of impact at that level too often in your career. So that was a really fun project to take on, and I just really enjoyed the work. It was really fun diving deeply into millions and millions of data points and looking at these ginormous spreadsheets and making some kind of sense out of it. Ashley: I see. Just from hearing, I feel like there could be a lot of transferable skills a student could learn in school and also potentially use that in their future careers. JJ: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Ashley: Are there any advice or suggestions you would give to students who are interested in, let's say, pursuing a career in user research or a related field? JJ: Yeah. I think one thing I would offer to students is to try to get involved early, if you can. There are a lot of professional conferences that have discounts, for example, for students to join. So I would say get involved in the community as soon as you can or as soon as you want to, just because that's the whole game. I hate saying this, but so much of it's about networking. While I find that, I've always found that kind of cringey and annoying, it's incredibly necessary, and it's just something I've come to terms with. So I'd say, make sure that you start building your network early on. Because the more you're out there, the more your name is known, the more contacts that you have, the more likely you are to be able to land something or at least get an interview and talk to somebody about it. I think that's a big part. Again, these professional conferences, they're very, very welcoming of academics and students. Because we all come from that background, so we're all very much like, yes, we should absolutely bring the next generation of people in. There's a lot of freedom to interact at those conferences and to meet people. Me and my colleagues are all super happy to talk with students and give advice and try to make that connection, if we can. So I would say that's one big piece that I'd offer, for sure. Ashley: So networking and also just exposing ourselves to different scenarios or different events. JJ: I think so, yeah. Ashley: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. It's really helpful to learn about your career trajectory and the advice that you share with students. This will really help students who are trying to figure out their careers in college. Really appreciate you being here today. JJ: Yeah, happy to do it, for sure.

“This is going to change the course of your life forever.”Ashley's first Cesarean was after a 48-hour labor at almost 42 weeks. She deeply desired and prepared for a VBAC with her second baby, but consented to a second Cesarean after another 48-hour labor at just over 41 weeks. With her third baby, Ashley pulled out all of the stops. She was committed to having a VBA2C in all the ways she knew and didn't know before. Perhaps the most impactful part of her preparation was processing fears more intentionally than ever before. She proactively went to therapy to heal from her previous births and to preemptively combat postpartum depression. She released the weight of failure and inadequacy that she didn't realize she was carrying.With exciting twists and turns, Ashley achieved everything she hoped she would in her third birth. She says that this VBAC experience has forever changed her and her belief in what she is capable of. Additional LinksBaby Bird Birth and Doula ServicesHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello you guys. We are at the end of August. I hope you guys have had a wonderful summer and that it's still great weather wherever you are listening from. We have our friend, Ashley, today and we are going to be sharing her stories. Something that we had requested or asked on Instagram is “What kind of episodes are you wanting to hear?” It seems that every time we ask that, a lot of people are saying, “VBAC after two Cesareans” and even extended to that, VBAC after three or even four multiple Cesareans. So today we have a VBAC after two Cesarean story. As always, we've got to get into a review but I am really wanting to talk because there is something about Ashley that she wrote in her bio. She said, “Her birth experiences have given her the passion for all things pregnancy, birth, and postpartum and have even led her to be a doula.” I just resonate so much with that because that's exactly how I became a doula, Ashley. I think that's how a lot of us in the birth world find that passion and that drive to support and help. So congratulations on becoming a doula and finding your passion through all of these experiences. Ashley: Thank you. Meagan: I full-on believe but I sometimes say that we experience these not-so-desired birth outcomes, right? Not-so-desired birth outcomes, but sometimes I think that we have those because we are meant to do something more and meant to experience those to help inspire and encourage and empower someone in the future. So congratulations on all of that. I am so excited for you to join the doula world. It's a journey, but it's awesome. Ashley: Yes, I'm excited. Thank you. Meagan: Yes. And then a little snippet also, a little secret– by the time this episode airs, she's probably going to be holding a newborn because her due month is August. That's really, really exciting. I'm just going to congratulate you right now in advance. Review of the WeekWe also have a review, of course. This review is from– I actually don't even know how to say this– I'm going to spell it out. It's bshsjbxbd. The title is “Life Changing.” It says, “This podcast is AMAZING. I just had my VBAC two months ago and I can honestly say that it is thanks to everything I've learned by listening obsessively to this podcast and joining this community. I am still listening even after my VBAC because I love hearing the stories of these amazing women and the loving support the hosts offer. Julie and Meagan clearly care so much about what they do and it feels like they truly care about each and every mama they talk to and connect through with the podcast and the community. I recommend this podcast to everyone who will listen when they are going for a VBAC. An amazing resource for those of us who are on our upcoming journeys to birth after a Cesarean. Thank you, thank you, thank you.”And thank you, bshsjbxbd, for your review. We always love your reviews coming in. If you haven't had a chance, I will never shy away from asking for a review. Your reviews are actually what helps people just like you listening to find this podcast. It is what helps the algorithm and especially in Apple Podcasts and on Google. It helps the algorithm know that people like hearing these stories and want to give you more. So if you haven't had a chance, leave us a review. We would love it so much. Ashley's StoriesMeagan: Okay, cute Ashley. Welcome to the show. Ashley: Thanks. I'm so excited. I'm so grateful. Meagan: I'm so grateful for you. VBAC after two Cesareans is so hard because I'm sure as you know through this journey– both of us specifically are VBAC after two Cesarean moms– it can be a really hard road. It can be really hard and really lonely, so we don't want anyone to feel that. I think that through sharing stories and relating, it's going to help people out there know that they're not alone and it is possible. Ashley: Yeah, 100%. I don't know that I would have been able to achieve that without listening to all of the podcasts and searching your site religiously. There is so much power in sharing your story. Meagan: There really is. There really is. Well, let's turn the time over to you to share your stories. Ashley: Cool, well thanks. I'll try to keep it pretty concise but as you know, there's a lot of background that you have to get to. We dealt with infertility for about five years. It was really unexplained. There was no specific reason. I actually had a bilateral ectopic at one point. Meagan: Oh, okay. Ashley: One of two they were able to repair. With the other, I had to have that one removed. So when I miraculously got pregnant in May of 2015, we were shocked and over the moon and just super, super grateful. Really, from the beginning, I knew that I just wanted a husband-coached natural birth. We did the Bradley Method class and we created this cute little birth plan to share with our provider. I really had a healthy and normal pregnancy and I thought, “I know what I want, so I'm going to get it.” C-section didn't come out of my mouth. It wasn't on the birth plan. It just wasn't anywhere around. Then at 40 weeks and at 41 weeks and at 41.5 weeks, the appointments showed nothing of concern, but I still had an unfavorable cervix. At all of those appointments, we had to sign an AMA saying that we did not want to get induced. We kept trying to do normal, regular things. Then on March 1st, I was 41+5. I woke up with a slight abdominal pain. I just did the normal routine. I went for a walk and all of the things we were doing. I did have a dance party that day instead of my normal yoga. I was like, “Let's get this started. Let's get moving.” Then those pains intensified throughout the afternoon and I finally was willing to call them contractions at some point that evening. They were about five minutes apart and we decided to go to the hospital. And like normal, not normal but for a lot of people, I got to the hospital and everything stopped. We decided to go home, but a nurse told us that because I was about 42 weeks and it would be against medical advice, my insurance would not cover my labor and delivery cost if we went home and then tried to come back. Whether that is true or not, at this point it is 3:00 in the morning and we are like, “What do we do? I don't know.” So we were like, “Let's just hunker down and just try to relax a little bit then in the morning try to get labor moving again.” So that was what we did. We decided to stay at the hospital. At about 8:00 the next morning, my OB came in and she wanted to strip my membranes. She accidentally broke my bag of water at the same time. I refused any other interventions at this point except they said that they did require that I have an IV and some monitoring. So after a lot of pressure from every nurse that came in the room and my OB, we agreed to a Pitocin drip at about 5:00 PM. Then I labored throughout the night. Things got super intense at about 2:00 in the morning. I was frantic. I remembered feeling like I couldn't handle the pain. I remember that the room was pitch dark and I'm just laying in the bed super frantic, super exhausted, no idea what to do. I tried getting in the tub. I hated it with all of the wires and the monitors around me so I just hated it. The nurse suggested that I try Benadryl to help me rest. I didn't rest but I got super groggy and I think that just made it worse. I was just physically, mentally, and emotionally– it was bad. There was all of this constant pressure to do things that I did want to do or I didn't want to do. I just felt so isolated and frustrated. I was dilated to about a 7 the next morning. It was 7:00 AM and I agreed to an epidural just to try to relax and get some rest and some relief. Then my OB came in and checked me. She said that my cervix was swollen at that point and that I started to regress.  Knowing what I wanted, she said that she was going to try to hold open my cervix and let me push. I tried but nothing really happened. Looking back, I'm like, “I don't know if she thought that would really help or if she was trying to appease me and try to give me a little bit of a confidence boost or something. I don't know.” At this point, I'm in labor for about 48 hours. I'm done. I was out of it. She highly recommended a C-section and I remember before I signed the paperwork, I looked at her and said, “Will you let me try for a vaginal next time?” I already knew. Again, also looking back, I'm like, “I can't believe I asked her permission.” But we do because we think that it is in someone else's control. Meagan: We do. Yes, yes. Ashley: So anyway, we had a gentle, normal, healthy C-section. Perfectly healthy baby girl. Recovery was fine. It was normal. It was good, but I had that defeat in my head and in my heart. It just stayed there and I moved on. So then about two years later, in January 2018, I was pregnant again thankfully and we moved. That first birth was in Florida and we moved to Michigan which is where we are now. I did a lot of research just on social media and things like that to try to find who is the VBAC-friendly provider in our area. I was super excited when I got in with one of the most VBAC-friendly practices in the Grand Rapids area. I was really happy that I could work with their midwife team for a VBAC. This time I just felt like I did more research and that I knew what went wrong last time, so I was like, “The same thing is not going to happen. I know what happened. Been there, done that. Moving on.” But that was kind of all we did. I did a couple of meditations. I read a couple of more books. I just was like, “I think we've got it.” Then 40 weeks came. 41 weeks came again. I just felt like– you know, from providers that you start feeling the pressure, especially with VBAC. Meagan: You do. Ashley: So then at my 41-week appointment, we denied the induction again. We endured a pretty fear-based lecture from the OB that was practicing there, but he did do a membrane sweep at that appointment. A couple of days later, nothing had happened. He did another membrane sweep and then I was like, “Okay.” I started getting that frantic feeling again. He did the membrane sweep. I went straight to acupuncture. I went straight home and had a castor oil lunch. Then contractions started about an hour later. They were about three minutes apart the entire night and then the next morning, my parents arrived from out of state to watch our daughter and things stopped. They pretty much totally stopped. We went on a long walk. I did more castor oil. I took a nap and woke up with super intense contractions so I felt like, “Okay. It's time we call the midwife.” She was like, “Try to just do what you can at home until things are unbearable.” I got in the bathtub at home and that's when I remember things caving in. Mentally and emotionally, I went totally dark. The fear of things I hadn't totally worked through from the first birth just came tumbling in. I remember laying in the bathtub being like, “I'm done. I can't do it. I can't. I can't do this the way that I want to.” We did end up going to the hospital. We were admitted there at about 6:00 PM and I was dilated to a 5 so that was a little bit reassuring at that point. But as we got to the hospital and all of the tests and the monitoring and all of that stuff, I just was so scared. The fear and the worry and all of the anxiousness crept back in. I did agree to an epidural again even though that wasn't something that I had originally planned. I just felt like I needed something to help calm me down. At around 11:00 that night, I was dilated to an 8. I tried to rest. We did some nipple stim. The next morning with little progression, I did start Pitocin at about 10:00 AM. I just remember being in the bed. The midwife would come in and we would try a couple of different positions, but that was really it. I didn't know any different. We didn't have a doula with us. My husband is a great support, but we didn't know what else to do. I ended up trying to push. I pushed for about two hours because my midwife thought that I was ready for that. There was no progression. I remember her saying that the baby's position was why he wouldn't descend. Again, looking back now, I'm like, “Oh, yeah. That makes sense,” but at the time, I'm like, “I don't know what that means. I don't know what to do about that.” So later, after I pushed for a couple of hours like I said, the OB came in, the same one who gave us the scary talk. He came in and he offered a vacuum, forceps, or a C-section. I think at that point, again, I was in labor for 48ish hours at that point and just tired. A C-section felt like the thing that I knew. I didn't do the research on the other things and I didn't have a great relationship with him, so I was like, “Let's do the C-section,” so we moved to the C-section. It was the same experience. It was gentle. It was safe and healthy and everything went fine. Our little guy was born at 9:00 at night. He had some breathing issues but nothing of concern. It was great. But this time, I struggled mentally for months after that with just that feeling like I failed again. I don't know if I'm going to ever get a chance again to have my VBAC or to redeem what I thought was possible for myself and for my family. Anyways, two years later in May of 2020 in the middle of the pandemic, we had a third miracle pregnancy and again, it was a very healthy, normal pregnancy. I decided to stay with the same practice because one, I knew that they were still one of the most VBAC-friendly practices, however, their midwife team is not able to support VBACs after two C-sections. Meagan: Just after two C-sections. Ashley: Mhmm, yep. I listened to an episode of The VBAC Link and there was someone on who is from this area. I ended up connecting with her and she told me about a great OB who worked who now had transferred into this practice that I was at. She was amazing so I was able to work with her instead of the other person who again, is a great provider but I just wanted a little bit of a different experience. Meagan: Right. Ashley: This new OB was a doula actually before she got into obstetrics. I just felt so much at ease and comfort with her. I remember her telling me, “You're in charge.” She would offer me things or tell me and give me information and then she would say, “You're in charge.” That changed the game for me. It just made me realize, “Oh, you're right. I am.” Meagan: It's crazy to think what the words, “You are in charge” did for you. Ashley: Yeah. It was amazing. I knew that with this birth, I was like, “This is my chance to get the VBAC.” We didn't know if we would have any more kids. I pulled out all of the stops. I hired a doula finally. My husband and I were on the same page. He's always been really supportive of what I want, but we had to sit down and have some pretty in-depth conversations about why I wanted it and why it was so important. I listened to every VBAC Link episode and every Evidence Based Birth episode. I did as much research and educating myself as I could. I started chiropractic care. I did Spinning Babies and nightly meditations. I started mental health counseling. At the time, I did it mainly because I think looking back, after my second, I went through a pretty intense period of postpartum depression. I didn't know it at the time, but I knew that this time, I needed to get ahead of it so I connected with a counselor just so I had that relationship built for after my third baby. What I didn't realize until after I started therapy was the mental block that I had from those first two births and so much defeat, failure, and fear. They were so heavy and I quickly realized them after just getting into regular therapy sessions. My therapist really helped me work through a lot of that which I am so thankful for. So fast forward through all of that prep that we do for months and months, this time I was like, “Okay. I'm sure I'm going to go to 42 weeks. That's just what my body does and I'm cool with it. It's going to be fine.”Meagan: Right. Right. Ashley: I went in for my 40-week appointment. Everything was normal except I did have a slightly elevated blood pressure which was abnormal for me. We did the NST. They did lab work and then I agreed to a membrane sweep. My OB was a little bit concerned that if my blood pressure would continue to rise or continue to be elevated then I would need an induction so she thought that the sweep would be the most gentle way to just try to get started. I was already dilated to a 3 so she was like, “I think it's a safe way to go. It's not too much intervening,” so I felt good about that.I did really normal things for the next 48 hours. With the other two, I got the frantic, “Let's get started.” Castor oil is a pretty intense thing, so this time I stayed away from that. I did a lot of inversions and curb walking. I went to the chiropractor and then at my next appointment, everything was normal. Blood pressure was back to normal and I was so thankful. I went home. That 40-week appointment was a Wednesday and we had a couple of days. Then on Sunday morning, I woke up and I had some slight contractions so I went for a super long walk. I did a lot of curb walking. I started an abbreviated or my own version of Miles Circuit just to keep things moving along. Contractions became pretty regular around 2:00 that afternoon. I was still hesitant to call it labor because I had experienced such long labors before that I was like, “Eh, this is a long road.” Meagan: Right. You're like, “Whatever. We've got this.”Ashley: But I did ask my husband to come home. He was at work and I asked him to come home just to help with the other two. That was about 4:00. I was like, “I just need to focus. I need to get in my space.” He took them to Target and they roamed around Target. I stayed home. I sat on my birth ball. I put my birth playlist on and I actually colored pictures for them just to calm myself and get in the right frame of mind. By the time they got home, I was just laying in bed trying to relax through the contractions. I managed to make it to dinner and have dinner with them and help with the bedtime routine, but I had to keep stopping through reading them their bedtime story just to breathe. After that, I just moved to our bedroom and I was really struggling. I was laying in bed and just walking around the bedroom. I remember that I felt sick but hungry, but cold, but hot and all of these different feelings were coming in. I had to just lean into my husband and hold onto him through every contraction. We did that for about an hour and he was like, “I think we'd better at least call the doula.” I was like, “Okay, okay.” She just listened over the phone to a few contractions and I remember her saying, “I think it might be time to go into the hospital.” Even though I was really struggling to cope with the contractions, I was super against going in because with my other two, I got to the hospital and everything stopped. I was like, “I'm not doing that.” Things kept progressing through. It was probably another hour and so I finally agreed, “Okay. Let's go in.” My husband was making arrangements for someone to come stay with our kids and pack the car. My water broke. I hadn't had that spontaneous experience before so that was kind of cool. He helped me get changed and get into the car. I remember I couldn't sit down. I was kneeling over the front seat on my knees and he was like, “This is probably going to be the hardest part of the whole labor, the drive to the hospital.” I was ready to push. I remember yelling the whole time, “I'm ready to push.” He was like, “It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. We're almost there.” He's driving through– it was February and there was a snowstorm here. He was trying to stay as calm as possible. We pull up to triage. It was about 9:50 PM. I got into my wheelchair still on my knees. They wheeled me in and I'm like, “I'm ready to push. I'm ready to push!” yelling at whoever was with me. A nurse checked me in the wheelchair. She came running out and checked me. Meagan: Turned around just backward.Ashley: Yeah. I heard her yell, “She's complete!” I was like, “Thank you, God.” It was the best thing that I could have ever heard. They wheeled me into a delivery room and they helped me onto the hospital bed. I was on all fours and I just started pushing. At that point, everything is kind of a blur. I was so focused on just pushing her out. I knew everybody there was looking at me like, “Is she going to do this? Is this actually going to happen?” I knew that until I was holding her in my arms, a C-section was still a possibility. Meagan: Yeah. Ashley: It was never off the table and I was like, “I've come this far. We're doing this.” I do remember that I got a saline lock. At one point, they put a monitor on baby's head. My doula put my hair up for me. They kept giving me oxygen to help me breathe. People kept urging me to change positions and I was like, “Nope. I'm good right here. I'm not moving.” My OB made it there for about 10 minutes of pushing and helped me through the last few pushes and then I heard her say, “The baby's head was out and then her body,” and then I just reached down and pulled her up and yeah. It was amazing. Absolutely amazing. Meagan: Absolutely. That's so flipping cool that you could get there and be that far progressed. For you mentally, I'm sure– like you said, “I knew it wasn't off the table,” but that had to have just been so huge and put you in a space. Even when they were doing all of these things, you were able to stay in your space and keep going. 10 minutes! Ashley: Yeah. It was crazy. I remember after things, I had pretty significant blood loss and pretty severe tearing just because it was so fast, but my husband said, “This is going to change the course of your life forever.” And he's right. It does because when you follow your intuition, right? And you really experience something so redeeming like that, that can change you. So yeah. I'm really grateful. Meagan: Yeah. It totally does change you. I hadn't had my baby yet. I was still in labor and I remember one of my doulas saying, “If this doesn't go the way she is wanting, I'm worried about what she's going to do with her career and if she's going to be able to keep going,” because I wanted it so badly. Then I had my VBAC and everyone was like, “This just changed you forever. This just totally did something for you.” I remember that it's the weirdest thing. It's really hard for me to describe, but to have a birth– and it's not even just a VBAC in general– but to have a birth where you feel like you were more in the driver's seat and more in control and like you said, following that intuition and trusting your whole soul, there's something to say with that. There's a power that that gave me. Ashley: Yep. Absolutely. Meagan: And it did. It's changed my life for the long term. It's just so amazing. It's so amazing. Ashley: And look at all of the community that you guys have built. Meagan: Yeah. Ashley: Your experiences have changed so many people's lives. It's just really cool. Meagan: It's really cool how it all circles around. And every single one of these stories– I mean, we're hearing it through these reviews how these stories are changing people's lives. This community and I may be biased, but there is something about this VBAC/CBAC community that is so special. We are so vulnerable.Ashley: I think so. I think also, people don't really get it. I mean, I have a great family and friends, but there aren't many that understand it. Meagan: There aren't, yeah. Ashley: So to be able to come somewhere like this and find other people who really get it and it's really important to them and it's really valuable and it just creates this sense of confidence and meaning. Meagan: Absolutely. It's so true. I remember that there were very few. I could count on one hand people that I could really go to. I love the people that would listen. I would always want a listening ear, but these guys didn't just listen. They heard and they felt. They felt it when I said, “I don't know what I should do. I have this provider, but I'm feeling called to this out-of-hospital birth. What should I do?” They could feel the struggle that I was going through. They could feel the desire, the want, and the hurt. I had a mother's blessing and I will never forget. I was in constant chills because I could feel their energy. Ashley: Yeah. That's amazing. Meagan: This community is absolutely amazing and you are amazing and then you're just going to keep going on. You're going to have this other VBAC and then you're going to keep going on as a doula inspiring. That's one of the reasons too why we love having our doula community. We have our certified doulas. When Julie was with me, she and I couldn't change the VBAC world. We're just here in Utah. Through this community and all of these birth workers out there and all of these parents inspiring, we have people on our team that haven't even had a VBAC and they're like, “Hey guys, did you know that this is an option? Did you know that this is a thing?” It's so cool the conversations that are sparked and can change someone's outcome completely. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing your story. Good luck right now and congrats in advance. And yes! Do you have a doula page yet where people can go follow you?Ashley: I do. Yeah, yeah thank you. It's Baby Bird Birth and Doula Services. So yeah. I have a website and Facebook and Instagram and everything. I'm getting things kicked off and I'm very, very excited to really start working with other families and helping them realize that your intuition is powerful. Your birth experience really matters. Meagan: It really does. It really does. It is not that it matters of the method, but the experience is impactful. Ashley: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Meagan: Right? Well, thank you so much again. Ashley: Thank you. I really appreciate your time and everything that you guys do. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this podcast, Anna interviews Ashley Waychoff, an expert in small business accounting and QuickBooks guru. Ashley shares her journey of starting her own business and how she helps women make better decisions in their businesses. They also discuss the importance of knowing the numbers in a business and the mistakes small businesses make when starting out. The interview is inspiring and informative for anyone interested in starting their own business. Ashley is an entrepreneur and small business accountant, this individual helps women make more money, stress less, and become better business owners. She truly believes that understanding the financial side of a business is the key to success. Their company, Pretty Penny, offers bookkeeping and advisory services, as well as resources for business owners who want to keep their accounting in-house. Their superpower is making accounting easy to understand while encouraging business owners to spend more time doing what they love. We believe Ashley could add value to your audience by sharing some of her insights about the below possible talking points: How a mindset around money can transform a business The biggest lessons she's learned when tripling her own revenue in one year The dangers of ignoring your business finances How to hire/fire and train a motivated team   05:07 Gut Feeling and Entrepreneurship 07:07 Self-care things in place 08:54 Taking Baby Steps to Achieve Entrepreneurial Success 20:53 The Ability to Choose 21:30  The Importance of Choice 22:11  Money and Opportunity 23:10 Celebrating Achievements    With her expertise and passion for helping small business owners, Ashley's tips and strategies offer a wealth of information for those struggling with their accounting. Overall, this informative and engaging episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to improve their small business accounting practices.   "I think it's really important. And I also think like accounts is one of those things that people avoid." - Ashley    "Yeah, it can be a full-time job doing that in itself and I think a lot of people mess up because it's not that sexy area of the business they like to focus more on." - Ashley    "Money in and of itself is something that most people are attracted to in some way or another." - Ashley    "Accounting is really just the organization of that money and making sure that you do have enough to pay yourself what you want and to get towards all of your business and personal goals that you have." - Ashley    "So my biggest suggestion is really just to not shy away from it. And don't be afraid if, in the beginning, you don't really understand what you're supposed to do or what you're looking at, reach out." - Ashley    Check out Ashley Waychoff's social media account: Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/prettypennyaccounting Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/prettypennyaccounting/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/prettypennyaccounting/ Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.ph/prettypennyaccounting/ Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@prettypennyaccounting Website - https://www.ppllcaccounting.com/meetashley   Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET THIS FREE EBOOK: Manifesting with Visualisation: http://bit.ly/3q46nDr 5 Steps To Make More Money From Home by Selling Professionally On Amazon: https://bit.ly/3A6uCq1   Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/3gvJO6l Amazon 101 Academy-Self Study: https://bit.ly/3n53DUS Make Sh*t Happen Membership: https://bit.ly/37MtCdg   Join Tribe My Facebook Group Your Freedom Project https://www.facebook.com/groups/YourFreedomProject2020/    Visit My Website Here: https://theannadavidson.com/   You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - @theannadavidson Facebook - Anna Davidson YouTube - @theannadavidson

Ashley joins us today from Australia sharing her three birth stories and how she learned to truly trust herself. Driven out of the hospital due to discrimination and not being able to find support from home birth midwives, Ashley decided to go for a free birth. With a special scar, two previous Cesarean surgeries, a big baby, a high BMI, and a history of gestational diabetes, Ashley accepted all of the risks and was able to reap the beautiful benefits of undisturbed home delivery. Ashley shares with us her journey to acceptance when things didn't go the way she planned, but also how to persevere through to fight for the story she wanted. She now hosts The VBAC Homebirth Stories podcast and is a Homebirth/Freebirth Mindset Coach inspiring other women to have the courage to take back control of their birth stories!Additional LinksAshley's InstagramThe VBAC Homebirth Stories podcastHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Hello, hello. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan Heaton and we have Ashley here with you. Can I just tell you? She is amazing and you're going to want to listen to this episode 5 million times and then when you're done listening to it 5 million times, you're going to want to check out her Instagram and watch her videos 5 million more times because she is amazing and such a wealth of knowledge. We reached out and said, “Hey, we want to share your story on the podcast. We think it's going to be an amazing episode.” I don't think. I know it's going to be an amazing episode. Review of the WeekBefore we do that, I'm going to get a review per usual and remind you that if you would like to leave a review, we are on Google and Apple Podcasts. You can email us. Shoot us a message on Instagram. We love to add your reviews to the queue and read them on the podcast. This specific review is from Ana Neves and it says, “I've been preparing for my VBAC ever since my C-section, and listening to the stories in this podcast has not only taught and informed me all about the different options, but also inspired me. I know that when the time comes, I will be prepared and feel the power of the great and courageous people who shared their stories here.” Oh, I love that. “The great and courageous people.” Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Thank you so much for sharing your review and like I said, if you have a review to share and you want us to know how you feel about the podcast and all of these great and courageous people, please leave us a review. Ashley's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Ashley. I am so excited that you are here. It's been interesting from now in recording, we've had Australian people on the podcast a lot. It warms my heart and makes me so happy and makes me feel like I probably need to go to Australia now because one, I am obsessed with all of the knowledge you guys have on birth and I actually really like the way that birth is in Australia in a lot of ways. But I am just so honored to have you here with us. Ashley: Thank you. I am so excited to be here. That was such a beautiful, warm welcome so thank you very much for having me. Meagan: Yes, oh my gosh. I'm serious. I just love listening to you too. I just love your guys' accents. My Utah accent is pretty lame, but yeah. So let's turn the time over to you. I am so excited because I feel like I've heard little things, but I'm excited to just hear it right now with you. Go ahead. Ashley: Okay. So let's start from the first babe then. Basically, I went into that one expecting that I was going to have a vaginal birth because my mum had vaginal births, and all of the women before me did too. My mum had me in 7 hours. I was the first baby. My sister is two, so mum said, “If you have medication, you're weak. You've just got to suck it up.” So I had this, “If she could do it, I can do it.” I had this, “I'll have the epidural if I need it” sort of vibe. A lot of my friends had babies before me. They had children when they were 17-18. By the time I had mine, I was 28. I was newly married and I had watched all of my friends. They told me all of their birth stories and things. They had all had vaginal births. I thought that Cesarean birth was really for celebrities basically because when I was in high school, it was Posh Spice who was having this C-section and things like that. It was a trendy thing to do. It wasn't something that normal people did. It was an expensive thing that rich people did. Meagan: Like in Brazil. That's how it's viewed in Brazil. You are high-class if you have Cesareans. Ashley: Yeah. I mean, I went to the GP before I got pregnant and checked on my levels to make sure. I have always had a high BMI, so the doctor said to me, “The only thing I recommend is that you lose some weight because you might struggle to conceive,” so I went in knowing that there may be a hardship there. Some of the women in my workplace at the time had multiple miscarriages. My mother-in-law had 7 before my husband, so I went in with that kind of, “We'll see what happens, but it could take a while.” So I conceived within the first month of trying so that was a shock, but also so exciting. Super exciting. It was a month before my wedding, so I got sick just after my wedding for my honeymoon and all of the fun games and after that, I was just like a sloth dying because I got HG. I got HG and it was just 20 weeks of basically a challenge. Meagan: Yeah, miserable. Ashley: It was hard. I was so excited to be a mom. I couldn't wait from the time I conceived to birth the baby and have the baby in my arms. That's all I wanted. I went to the hospital and there was a bit of a mix-up between when I went to the GP and had the GTT, the test for gestational diabetes. The doctor told me that I didn't have it. I went to a hospital because that's what they do. You go to a GP and they just send you to the local public hospital and that's the one that you are allowed to go to, but they didn't really discuss any of the other avenues like private, or midwives, or homebirths or anything like that. So I went excitedly to my first appointment. I waited for over an hour and I saw some random gyno-obstetrician and they said to me, “You've got gestational diabetes so you'll be seeing us.” I was like, “No I don't. I don't have gestational diabetes.” “Yes you do,” she said and I burst out crying. It was this big thing. Basically, the difference was if I had birthed or if I had gone to the hospital in Brisbane which is the next suburb over, I wouldn't have had gestational diabetes but in the hospital that I went to, they were up with the times with the lower numbers because that was cycling at the moment. It was 2014. I had gestational diabetes and that meant that I had so many more appointments. It meant that I was only with obstetricians. It meant that I had to go to nutrition or a dietician. It was just so many appointments. It was out of control. From a very early stage, I was told, “You're going to be induced and you're going to be on insulin.” As soon as I was diagnosed, I was told, “You're going to be on medication.” Meagan: No talking about it. Ashley: “Yeah, let's see how this unravels and we're not going to start you on the pill, we're just going to go straight to insulin for you,” so it was kind of like they had already decided my fate. I was really excited to have an induction. It meant that I got a date for my baby and I was going to have my baby early. When I spoke to the other ladies in the GD who were getting induced, the lady said to me, “It's all good. I was induced and I had my baby in 5 hours.” I was like, “Awesome. Awesome.” I don't know what number baby that was for her because when it comes to induction, I know now that it really matters whether it's your second or if you've had a vaginal birth before, then an induction probably isn't going to land you with a C-section. I ended up getting my date, coming into hospital, and having no discussion. I kept asking, “Can we have a birth discussion?” It was always, “Next week. Next week. Next week.” There was no discussion about what happens at birth or really what to expect or any niceties or anything. It always felt quite cold. It was like the people didn't even want to be there, the junior obstetricians, it was like they were doing their time so to speak. It just wasn't a pleasant experience. I was expecting my first baby and I just felt like another number. Meagan: Yeah. It wasn't warm and fuzzy at all. That's for sure. Ashley: No. I just felt like it didn't feel right. It just felt really not nice. Meagan: Yeah, impersonal. Ashley: Yeah, exactly. I basically went in for my induction and my husband came in with me. That was a couple of days of having gels and people putting their fingers up and continued monitoring and just very uncomfortable. I found after they had done all of that process that my cervix was right shut up. It wouldn't open up. They said, “Okay. We are going to try and put the balloon in there.” That was the most excruciating pain. Meagan: Especially when you're not dilated. Ashley: It was excruciating and I was in so much pain. The doctor and midwife made out that I was making a big fuss because I was responding that it was painful, so they gave me a lot of gas and I was pretty much tripping out. It was really trippy. Meagan: Like nitrous oxide?Ashley: Yeah. I just felt like if this is how painful it is to put this thing in, how painful is labor going to be? How am I going to handle that if I've just been through two days of this? I think that I had a cannula in my hand as well because I couldn't really go to the bathroom without assistance from my husband. It was really getting uncomfortable. I had something up inside me. Meagan: Or poking you or something all of the time. Ashley: Yeah, exactly. So another night in the hospital we slept and then they said, “If it doesn't open and it doesn't drop out by the morning, then we'll talk about it.” I wasn't allowed to eat. I had to fast. Meagan: That's going to serve your body well. Ashley: I know. It's really cool. It's like they give you so much amazing care in the hospital to set you up for this amazing birth, and I woke up and it was still in there and nothing had changed. I felt really defeated and I felt like my body was broken like there was something wrong with me. Nobody had ever discussed or told me that there is a high failure rate to this or that this procedure can fail or that you may not be a great candidate for this procedure. Meagan: Or more time. More time can make you a different candidate statistically and raise your BISHOP score. Ashley: Yeah, they obviously did the BISHOP score and they would have seen that I wasn't a good candidate for this. They would have known that when they did all of these things to me. Now I see that as my body is so amazing that you tried to do all of this stuff to my body and my body was like, “Hell no.” Meagan: Nope. I'm keeping this baby in. Ashley: Clam shut, yeah. The junior doctor came in and she said, “Look. We recommend that you come in tomorrow for more monitoring. Go home and come back on Monday and we'll start the process again.” I was like, “What do you mean you're going to start the process again? This was really torturous.” I said, “What's the difference between a day or two? My body's not going to respond any differently. Can I just come back in two weeks?” I'm 38 weeks at this point and I'm like, “I'm not even 40 weeks. Can I come back in 2 weeks when I'm in labor?” Meagan: And a first-time mom.Ashley: Yeah, because my mom had me and my sisters right on 40 weeks, so I'm just expecting the same. She said, “No. You can't.” I was like, “Oh, okay.” She said, “No, you can't do that.” I said, “Okay.” She said, “You know what? We're just about to have an obstetrician meeting, so I'll go in there and I'll ask the consultants what they think and I'll come back with a plan.” “Okay,” I said because she also did talk about my option of being a Cesarean on the Monday and I said to her, “Look. I'm going to be honest with you. There's no way in hell that you're going to get me to come in for elective surgery. It's just not going to happen. I never wanted to birth like that and I don't want to.” She came back and she said– they obviously spoke about what I had said and they made for me later a plan to push me in the way they thought that I was going to bend the most, so they said, “Look. We've bumped all of the surgeries for the day and we're going to book you in as priority because we feel like you should be having this baby now.” I was kind of like, “Okay.” So they were bumping all of these surgeries. There were people sitting out in the waiting room waiting to have their babies, but they were going to bump me to have my baby first. I had my sister in the room who was a surgery nurse who had been pushing me to have surgery the whole time because she was traumatized. I'd been fighting her the way through like, “No. I don't want to do that. I want to have a vaginal birth.” I was so exhausted and my husband only had 5 days off of work, so he had to return in a couple of days. I had my in-laws at my house babysitting my dog and I was promised a baby. I feel like at that point, I was just like, “Okay, well if that's what you think, then okay. I'll do it.” I signed this 3-page waiver form by the way, which I was really scared of. I was like–Meagan: What am I doing? What am I signing?Ashley: My sister is getting me prepared. She just finished a shift from working upstairs in nursing and she organized for herself to get in there, so it was going to be my husband and her. They never allowed a third person, but because she worked there and knew people, she was able to weasel in. She's getting me ready like a good nurse. She's so excited. She gets to be a part of it and I'm just recording a video of, “If I die, tell my baby I love my baby.” I am so petrified. I've got video and photos and I just look at the photo and it's like me trying to look excited, but actually, I'm like, “Holy crap. This is really scary and I don't want to do this.” Meagan: Why is everybody so excited and I'm terrified? And why is no one talking to me about this? Ashley: Because I'm giving up control. They're not getting the knife, but I am. It's really scary if you've never had surgery. It's not something that we do every day and it's not something that I had ever gone through before. So off I go into surgery and it's really good that my sister was there because she got to take a lot of photos and she got to be a part of it. Meagan: That would bring some comfort maybe. Ashley: Yeah, I felt like they would step up a bit as well because they knew that it was one of their own in there and I was one of their own. She took a lot of photos and things like that, but when they were doing the spinal, no one can be in the room. I just remember feeling so petrified and shaking and looking into this big man's eyes who was holding me and thinking, “You look like a nice man. Keep me safe.” This midwife came around and she was like, “You look like a deer in headlights” because it was like all of these lights shining down at me. I'm in this crazy room with surgery stuff. I'm really scared. I'm petrified, but I went through the whole process and the obstetrician and everyone, it was Christmastime. It was early Christmas. It was December 5th and they were all having their Christmas party that night, so they were all very happy talking about the Christmas party. “You're going to the Christmas party? I'm going to the Christmas party.” I thought, “Well, they're not fast. They're not stressed. They're very happy. They're starting their day. I'm the first one. They're excited about the Christmas party.” It didn't feel very personal. I definitely didn't feel included in the process. They were just talking among colleagues. Meagan: I can so relate. So relate. Ashley: It's horrible. Meagan: Yeah. They were talking about the snow outside and how depressing it was because the one just gotten back from Hawaii. He was like, “Oh, I came back to snow.” I was like, “I'm right here. Can we talk about my baby? Can we talk about me?” Ashley: Yeah, it's very impersonal. I mean, it's one thing at the dentist to be chatting it up. I don't mind it at the dentist if they're chatting or something, or the orthodontist or something, but yes. I thought, “At least they're calm.” The baby was born in no time and then announced, “It's a baby girl.” I just thought, “Oh, can I go to sleep now? I'm not really interested in this. I'm very time. I'm shaking. This is not a great experience.” I just turned around and said, “Can I go to sleep? I don't want to hold the baby.” It's uncomfortable anyways, but I can't really hold the baby. I'm shaking. I've never really had that many drugs in my system before and off to recovery we go basically. That's a new experience as well. Yeah, it wasn't a great postpartum experience in the hospital. It was quite a negative experience with the night midwives, so I was really excited to get out. I left a day early because I just did not want to have to put up with the night staff. My husband wasn't allowed to stay. Meagan: Oh, why? Ashley: So in our hospital in the public system, some of them have got 4 or 5 to a room, so I was in a 4 or 5 to a room. They don't allow husbands to stay. I couldn't get out of bed. Meagan: I didn't know that. That's like old school.Ashley: It is old school. A lot of them are getting upgraded now because obviously, it's better to have your own room and stuff, but that's where I was lumped. No one wants to birth there because no one wants to share a room, but if you're in the catchment, that's where you get stuck unless you go private. So he got booted out at 10:00 at night, and then I was left with this witch of a midwife who every time my baby cried, she was like, “Oh, look. You're just going to have to sleep with the baby on your belly because I can't be coming back here to get the baby all of the time.” I was like, “But it's not guidelines. I'm not allowed to sleep with my baby with my chest. I can't sleep and it's stressing me out.” In my head, I'm saying those things, but yeah. It was horrific. The next morning, my husband came and I was letting loose at him. I was like, “Why weren't you here? The baby and I haven't slept.” I was so stressed. I mean, think about it. Being awake for 3 days, having been in the hospital for a long time, and then having gone and had major surgery, you're left on your own with this baby with barely any support. No one telling you what to do, trying to breastfeed with your nipples getting ripped by the way. Meagan: Pretty much abandoning you. Pretty much. Ashley: Basically. So the second night, I stayed and sorted that out, then I went home the next day. I did have a bit of a thing with the midwife. She was on again, so I ran down to the bathing room and I hid from her because– okay. One thing you should know about me is that I am a highly sensitive person, so something that someone might say to someone may not affect them as much as it would affect me. Meagan: It triggers you. Ashley: It really upsets me and being in a vulnerable position, I need someone who's gentle, nurturing, and loving. So I ran away and I hid in the bathing room with my baby. I was trying to work out why she was crying. I had fed her. I swaddled her. I changed her. I was really trying to work it out. She could hear the baby screaming and obviously thought that I was not looking after my baby. I said, “Look, I'm just trying to figure out what's happening here.” She's like, “You just need to hold her.” I was like, “No, I just need to figure out what's happening because I've got to go home with this baby and work this out.” She's like, “Why don't I take the baby and I'll look after the baby so you can get some sleep?” I'm like, “No. That's not happening.” I was so against this woman. She was like, “Here's your medication. Take your medication. I've been looking for you,” and then she sent another colleague down to come and check on me and try to convince me to give the baby up. But what I discovered by sticking to my guns and doing what I felt was intuitively right for me was that my baby was pulling her arms out of the swaddle and that was waking her up. So I put her in a little zip-up and from then on, she slept through the night. My husband came the next morning right on the dot. I had a shower. Baby was sleeping. He's like, “Where's the baby?” I'm like, “She's sleeping,” feeling like a million dollars. “I've got this. I've got this and we're checking out today.”Meagan: Yep. Get me out of here. Ashley: I went home and we struggled with breastfeeding. I got some really bad advice from one of the nurses that came to my house so I felt like a double failure. By 6 months time, I was mixed feeding to just formula feeding and I felt like a real failure. I let her down. I hadn't birthed her the way– I didn't feel like I birthed with, “When I had my baby,” or “When my baby was born.” I didn't say “When I birthed,” because I didn't feel a part of the experience. It happened to me. It wasn't inclusive to me. I just felt completely excluded. So I knew when I was going to have my second, I was having a VBAC for sure because I knew there was a thing possible. I knew about VBACs and I said to my GP, “What's the timeframe between babies?” She said, “24 months between birth and birth.” That was the thing then or whatever. I said, “Fine. I'm having 24 months.” I literally started trying within 24 months, whatever it was, 15, or whatever. I fell pregnant the second time. I was having a VBAC and I think I joined the VBAC group in Australia. I started learning all of the stuff, becoming informed and advocating. I knew that this time I wasn't having an induction because that's what caused me a C-section. I knew that I wanted to try to avoid GDM because that's what I thought was the lead-up for the induction rush. I didn't realize that my weight was obviously pushing against me so much. I didn't understand the reasons why or some of the discrimination that happened in the hospital at that point. I did the early GTT test and I passed that. I was like, “Yes. Maybe this is going to be different.” I'm going to show them. I'm educated. I know what I want. I'm informed. I'm also a people pleaser so I'm trying to get them on board with me. I'm trying to get them to agree with my decision. I'm trying to get them to be a part of my team and cheer me on and get excited.I'm just kind of getting met with obstetricians who were like, “VBAC is great and it's the best way to birth your baby.” I'm like, “Yes. This is amazing.” Meagan: You're like, “Thank you. This is what I want to hear.” Ashley: “But not for you.” I'm like, “What? Not for me?” “Well, for you, we recommend a planned Cesarean.” “Okay.” They never really spoke in plain language or explained it to me. It was only through digging and digging and digging and asking and asking and asking that I was finally able to get some answers. I essentially ended up getting gestational diabetes at 20 weeks, so then I wasn't allowed to see midwives because I had asked to see midwives and they said, “If you get GD, we won't release you.”Meagan: It disqualified you. Ashley: It disqualified me from seeing midwives. I said, “Look, you're a surgeon. Can I just see you if I need surgery?” The thing with GD is that there is a GD counselor and somebody that you report to outside of them, so why do I need to see you because you're not a GD expert or specialist? I actually see somebody. Why is a midwife not capable of looking after me? It doesn't make any sense. They're just trying to pull in all of the patients to keep their bellies full and make sure they've got jobs. I was gutted. I was absolutely gutted. I only failed by .1 on one of the tests and I wish I had known back then that I could have redone it and I probably would have passed it. It was really disappointing and I was like, “Oh, goodness me.” So I was diet-controlled through that time. I say diet-controlled because that's the readings that I gave them. I wasn't really diet-controlled but I was being a bit of a rebel because I was getting the same numbers as I was with my first baby and I was on insulin with her and insulin didn't do much. I thought, “Well, what's the difference going to be if they're the same numbers? She came out healthy and had no sugar problems or anything.” I kind of started to think, “Is this GD thing a bit overrated? If I was in a different hospital or a different country—”Meagan: I was going to say if you went somewhere else like last time, would it have been different or would it actually have been GD as well? Ashley: If I had gone somewhere different and I knew this because I was part of the GD community and I had friends that were birthing in Brisbane who were even having to keep below higher numbers than me. They had much higher numbers than me, so I thought, “You're with a private obstetrician and you're getting different information than me,” so I started to clue on that. And then also, when I was doing my readings on my fingers, I would get a different reading on this one to this one, so I started questioning, “If this one's .5 difference to this one, how accurate is this measuring?”Meagan: Yeah, interesting. Very interesting. Ashley: So it was very scary for me to do that because nobody's doing that and every time you're going there, they're like, “Dead baby. There was a woman who had gestational diabetes and her baby died.” And I was like–Meagan: You hear these and you're like, “What?” Ashley: I was like, “How did she die? How did the baby die?” They said, “Oh, we can't disclose that information. You're telling a room full of women with gestational diabetes that a baby died and the mum had gestational diabetes. She could have been hit by a car for all we know and you're using it to fearmonger us, but you're not willing to tell us how the baby died. It could have been negligence on the hospital's part. It may not have been GD related at all.” Meagan: Yeah, she just had it. Ashley: She just had it, so I found that quite disgusting and all of those things started to really add up. The more that I saw in the VBAC community, the more that I saw this was happening around Australia, the more I was determined to advocate and fight which is really hard for a highly sensitive person, but I got a student-midwife. I got the head midwife to come to my appointments. I had a student-doula who was a dear friend of mine and I started to grow a team around me. I refused to see one of the doctors at one point and wanted to speak to the best, most amazing doctor in the hospital, so the midwives set me up with the nicest obstetrician who still didn't support me to have a vaginal birth, but he was nicer to deal with. I mean, I had some crazy conversations with some of the obstetricians during that time. One of them was a junior and she said to me because I didn't want to have continuous monitoring. I just wanted to have the doppler. She said, “You know what my boss says? He says that if you don't have continuous monitoring, then you're basically free birthing in the hospital.” I looked at her and I was like, “You're crazy.” At this point, free birth to me was crazy and she was telling me that because I'm in a hospital and if I'm not doing that, then I'm free birthing. And I thought, “But I'm getting checked with a doppler by a midwife. I'm with obstetricians.” That is absolutely insane, but it goes to show the kind of mentality and the thought process that goes through the fact that they don't know how to be with women. They don't know how to observe and watch a woman. Now, my mindset is the complete opposite way. I see things in a different light than how they would see. They rely on machines whereas they don't rely on that connection. I'm the type of person that relies on human-to-human connection and I've listened to people and I love stories. That's how we learn. We don't learn about humans by watching machines. I started to learn about the inaccuracies of their machines and some of the equipment that they were using. It made no sense to me to have continuous monitoring when I knew that one obstetrician would send me to surgery for the reading whereas another one with maybe more experience who may be older and more chilled would be like, “Yeah, that's nothing.” If the results are at that rate, then that's not beneficial to me because then I'm putting my fate on whether I get a choppy-choppy obstetrician or a chilled, relaxed one on the day. So that was kind of my thinking. I didn't do growth scans this time. I didn't see the point in me having a growth scan to tell me that I was having a big baby. My first was 3.7 at 39 weeks. I knew this one was going to be 4 kilos and I said, “Look, I'm happy to birth a 4.5-kilo baby out of my vagina,” which is almost 10 pounds for your listeners and they just wanted to do Cesareans on 4-kilo babies as well as inductions. It was always about induction and I found out the reason why they wanted to do induction. They wanted to manage me. They weren't a tertiary hospital, one of the bigger ones, and so I found out that the junior obstetricians wouldn't be comfortable doing or maybe confident or capable of doing an emergency Cesarean on someone of my size, so I said, “That's fine. Just send me to that hospital or that hospital. Let's just do this. If it's a staffing issue, I don't want to stretch it out.” They just laughed at me. It can't be a big deal then, can it? If they're not willing to send me to a different hospital. We had so many conversations and it was anxiety-inducing. I would cry on the way to the hospital. I would cry on the way home. I'd have to get my fight on and I even had a conversation with an obstetrician that said to me, “We'll fight about that later.” I said, “That's exactly right though isn't it? It's a fight, the fight.” Meagan: Yeah, we'll fight about that later. That right there. Ashley: He goes, “Oh, I didn't mean fight. I don't mean fight.” I go, “Yeah, but no. You do.” Meagan: But you just said that. Ashley: But you do. Meagan: You're like, “Yeah, I can tell that you're not agreeing with me and you're telling me that if I want something else, I'm going to have to fight with you.” Ashley: And so I'm hearing about this informed consent and I'm like, “Informed consent.” I'm fixated on what would get them to be on my side. I've learned about informed consent. They legally have to support me, right? But that is just the fast in my opinion, in my experience, they wouldn't know what informed consent or working with a woman, it just blows my mind. I didn't realize that at the time, but there were a lot of conversations that were happening about my weight. “You're not going to be able to. It's harder for bigger women like you.” I would leave conversations thinking, “I'm not going to be able to birth my baby out of my vagina because I'm big.” Meagan: They were shaming you. Ashley: Yeah, basically I was told by an obstetrician that, “She's not a fatist, but—.” I was like, “I've never heard someone say ‘I'm not a fatist.'” I don't even know what that means. I had some really interesting conversations because I was asking questions and I was asking questions because I was asking so many questions. Every time I went to an appointment, the obstetrician would say to me, “Ah, I see you're having a repeat Cesarean,” and that would spike adrenaline. Read my book. Read my book. You would know that I'm having a VBAC and then, “Oh, well do you know the risks of VBAC?” Yes, I do. “Oh, you really do know the risks, but we still recommend that you have a repeat Cesarean,” and I would have to go through that every single time. Meagan: So discouraging. Ashley: It was a nightmare. By 36-37 weeks, I had received a phone call and they said, I could feel the smugness and a smile through the phone, “Oh, we're not willing to take the risk. You're going to have to go to a different hospital.” I was just horrified. I was so scared. I've just been kicked out of hospital because nothing has changed with me.”Meagan: But because I won't do what they want me to do and I'm being stern in following my heart. Ashley: Yeah, because I won't submit. I've told you from day one what I'm going to do, but I suppose the rate of success with that tactic is probably 99%, I'm probably the 1% of women who actually says, “No. I actually will not fall for your trickery.”Meagan: Yeah, okay fine. I'll leave. Ashley: I was so determined, so then I went to a different hospital and it was a newer hospital. They had birthing pools. I was hopeful that I might get in a birthing pool. You get your own room in the postpartum. I was excited. They had informed consent signs. The receptionists weren't fighting each other. This first one that I went to was pretty rough down there. They were lovely and polite. I thought, “Oh, this feels nice. Maybe I'm going to have a different response,” and I did. I saw an amazing midwife on entry. She was like, “If they're not going to allow you to do this, you advocate and you can make a complaint. That's disgusting how you were treated.” I thought, “Oh, wow. This is the best thing.” I saw an obstetrician. They were supportive. They wanted to do some of the same things, but they respected me. I felt like I was seen as a human. They would ask me questions and they would go and ask a consultant and the consultant would agree with me. I was like, “Wow, I am ticking boxes here.” I made some compromises because I was vulnerable. I did a growth scan and they found out that baby was about 4 kilos. Meagan: Like you already guessed. Ashley: I knew that at 39 weeks. I said, “That's fine.” “Oh, we recommend induction.” I said, “Yeah, I know you do. I'm not doing it.” That's what caused me the C-section last time. I'm not doing it. We went through the study at 39 weeks. I said, “That doesn't apply to me. It doesn't apply to me. I'm not in that study. It doesn't mean anything to me.” I don't know how you can have a study saying that it's going to work better on someone at 39-41 because you're not doing the same people. You're not doing induction on someone at 39 weeks and then going, “Hey, let's try it again at 41 or whatever it is.” You're doing different people. I don't want to know about it. I don't care about it. They said, “Okay, well I'll talk to the consultant. We'll look at the scan,” and then she came back and said, “Yep, you're fine. There's no fat on the shoulders, so yep. That's fine.” But if I hadn't said that, I would have been booked in for an induction, right? I would have just said, “Let's go, yep.” I sat there on the weekend with my husband shaking like a leaf again having to advocate for myself. It isn't an easy thing to do. Every time I have to raise my voice, I'm putting adrenaline into my body. I'm not raising like screaming, but I'm having to raise my voice. My baby would have been under attack the whole pregnancy essentially. I eventually get to the due date. A week before my due date– it was a couple of days before my due date– my midwife turns to me at the last appointment. She was training in the hospital last time, so I was really grateful that she was willing to come with me and support me even though she wasn't going to get her book signed off for this birth. And on that appointment, she said to me, “Look, my daughter's booked a holiday for me, so I'm going away on your due date. Are you going to have this baby soon now?” I was like, “Oh my goodness. You've just fought with me the whole time and now you've turned into them trying to get me to have my baby before my due date because it suits you.” Yes. I was heartbroken and I was so angry. I decided then and there I was not going to invite her into my birth space even if it was sooner because she had betrayed me on every level. I went into that appointment and the obstetrician didn't recommend it, she said, “Do you want to do a cervical stretch?” A sweep and I said, “No, I don't.” I turned to the midwife and said, “What do you think?” She was like, “Yeah, why not?” Of course, she said that because it gets the baby out quicker. So again, you've got to be careful about who you're with because if you're relying on people who've got a different agenda, you've got to take their advice or their opinion with a grain of salt. But I was a little bit interested myself. I'd never had a stretch or a sweep like that before. I was a bit interested. I was worried that I was going to go over due dates and I was willing to wait for 40+10 and I was getting a bit stressed like, “Oh, what if it goes longer?” You start to freak out at that point. There's a bit of pressure and with what I'd been through, I had the stretch and sweep. She said, “You're 3 centimeters and you're stretchy.” I was like, “Wow. Wow. Last time, they couldn't even– I was closed up.” Meagan: Get a Foley in. Ashley: Yeah. So I was so excited. I started to get some niggles and lose some mucus and a bit of blood and things like that. Two days later, I went into labor. She said to me, “If it does nothing in the next couple of days, then the baby wasn't ready to come. If it happens, then the baby was always going to come,” sort of thing. Now, obviously, what's the point in doing them if the baby is going to come and it does nothing but disturb? I mean, my complete mindset changed and flipped. But yeah, I went into straight labor. I was so excited and so proud of myself. I'm in labor this time. I never knew if my body was broken after all of the fearmongering and talk. I was just so proud of myself. It was exciting. I had adrenaline pumping through me. I was shaking with fear and excitement. I was going to wait the whole day to go in. I was going to essentially go to hospital when my baby's head was coming out. As soon as I went into labor, I was like, “Yeah. I think I should go to the hospital.” I was adamant the whole time I wasn't going in until I was ready to push and as soon as I was in labor, I was like, “Yep. Okay, it's time.” Meagan: Let's go. It's exciting. You're like, “Okay, let's go have this baby.” Ashley: Yeah, and it was fast and hard. When I go into labor, it's not any prelabor, it's just that this is on. I dilate pretty quickly. When I got to the hospital, I was 5 centimeters. They were really surprised at how I was doing because I was quite calm and quiet. They were like, “Oh.” I got eventually into the birthing suite. My doula came and set up the room really pretty. I went into the shower and had a midwife assigned to us. She just sat down and read my birth plan and was happy with everything. She wouldn't let me in the birthing pool of course because I was over 100 kilos even though they've got a hoist for bigger people if they need to. They're just not comfortable with bigger people in the birthing pool. I just did my thing and I said, “I don't any doctors to come in. I don't want anyone annoying me or harassing me.” And I just labored for a few hours until I felt like there were some waters or something I could smell and feel. The midwife said, “Do you want me to check you?” I said, “Yeah. Yeah, we'll see if the waters have gone.” She said, “Yeah, the waters have gone and yeah, this is a little fore bag so would you like me to break that?” I said, “Well, if you think so, okay.” At this point, my education had gone to the point of getting past the induction. If I had gotten into spontaneous labor and I saw a midwife because everything was raving about midwives, I'm going to be fine. This baby's going to come out of my vagina okay. I didn't know anything about birth really. I just knew what not to do. I'm probably not going to have an epidural, but I'm open to it. You shouldn't break the waters, but I don't really understand why. But I wasn't having my waters broken. I was just having a little bit of my waters broken. And then came the tsunami and it was my entire waters. It was all over the bed and it was all warm. I was like, “What is happening?” She had either–Meagan: So your bag never really did break until then. Ashley: No, yeah. Yeah. Yes. And there's some other information. She's like, “Oh, we'll put the screw on the baby's head.Meagan: The FSC, fetal scalp electrode? Ashley: We call it the clip. Meagan: A clip. Ashley: Yeah, some call it the screw. I call it the screw. It's a little clip and it barely hurts. That was one of my compromises from not having continuous monitoring. I said, “If I have that, then I can be mobile.” That was the compromise and negotiation. Then, I found myself locked to a machine by the way because it wasn't mobile at this point. Then as soon as I got off the bed, there was a decel, so I was back on the bed. I was in excruciating pain at this point. I come out of my nest in the shower where I was able to breathe through everything and I was standing upright. Now there was a bit of fear happening because there was a decel that she didn't recover from quickly enough, so then the obstetricians and everyone had to come in. They were kind of like, “Oh, C-section,” talking about it already. I said, “No. I don't want to talk about it. The baby's fine. Just let me do my thing.” “Okay, okay,” and then they hounded me to get a catheter in my arm even though I didn't want one. I said, “No, I don't want one.” It's really painful and I don't want it. She said, “Oh, come on. We'll just get one in.” I said, “Okay, fine. Just do it then. Just leave me alone.” So she put it in and I'm walking around with this thing coming out of my vagina, this thing in my hand and I'm out of the zone and really finding it hard to get back into how I was feeling. Meagan: Your space. Ashley: Yeah, my space. I must have been in there for an hour or two, maybe a bit longer. By this point, they've told me that I'm 10 centimeters on one side, 8 centimeters on the other and there were a couple more decels and maybe one more and they were saying things to me that I don't understand. They were like, “You've got an anterior lip. It's swollen. You're 10 centimeters on this side and 8 centimeters on that side. Your baby's asynclitic. Your baby's up high.” They're looking at me and I'm like, “I don't know.” Meagan: You don't know what any of that means. Ashley: I'm 10 centimeters. The baby is going to come out right any minute. I'm just like, “Is the baby's going to come out soon?” I was starting to feel some pushy pains as well, so my body was pushing a little bit too and then I think I went back into the shower and I called in my husband because he was a weak link and I knew he would do what I said. I was like, “I want an epidural.” And the epidural was there within 10 minutes. I knew that would happen. They wanted me to have an epidural on arrival because of my said. I went to the anesthesiologist appointment and they looked at my back and said, “No, you've got a fine back.” What they're worried about with bigger people is that there can be fat over the spine. I said, “Okay, well I've got a fine back,” which I thought would be fine because I never had any problems with the C-section. They said, “But we still recommend an epidural on arrival.” I was like, “Okay. Well, at least I understand why.” The thing is that I'm trying to get information from them so I can make informed choices, so if it's in my best interest, then I will say yes and I will do it. But if it's in the best interest of you to make your life easier, then I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to put myself or my baby at risk to make your life easier. I understood that an emergency C-section was a higher risk than a planned C-section. I understood that induction was a higher risk. I knew all of the before things and the choices. What I got stuck with is I didn't understand physiological birth. I hadn't done any research on that. So they were talking to me gobbledygook, all of these things were happening. I just never thought that this could happen. I never ever thought this would happen to me. My mom had me in 7 hours. What is happening? What are these things that are happening? Now I'm on the bed. I'm stuck on the bed because I've chosen to have an epidural and now I've negotiated because we have had a couple of decels. I've negotiated for myself what I think is a pretty sweet deal which I realize is actually a really bad deal of vaginal examinations every hour. The normal standard practice is about every 4 hours and I'm like, “Okay. How about if we just check every hour and see if there is any progress?” They're like, “Yeah, that sounds great.” Every hour, they come into me and they're saying, “No change. Baby's up high. No change. We recommend C-section. These are the risks if you wait.” They were talking to me about the risks that would happen in a Cesarean, not about the risks that would happen in a vaginal birth if I wait. So it was very biased. I was like, “Okay, so what happens if I wait to have a vaginal birth?” They were like, “Well, we just recommend a Cesarean.” I feel like I'm in a room stuck with the enemy. I said to my doula, “I don't trust them. I feel like they know what they're talking about, but I don't know any different either.” My doula was a student doula and it's not like I came in there with a midwife who is on my team. I'm looking at the midwife and I'm like, “Are you going to help me?” I'm realizing that she's team obstetrician. I mean, I've never met her before. She was just working there. I'm thinking, “This is not what was sold to me in the VBAC group if I see a midwife. Midwives are amazing, blah blah blah blah.” What I actually missed was that independent midwives that are not working in hospital have more free reign are the midwives that everyone's raving about. I'm thinking it's just random midwives, any midwives are awesome. And not every midwife's awesome because you've got different personalities. You've got different experiences. You've got different passions and every person is different just like you can find an amazing obstetrician. You can find an amazing personal trainer, but they're not going to suit everybody or everyone's needs. And they have a bias against different people based on color, based on gender, based on size, based on the way that you look. If they can identify with you, they are going to be more attached to the story and fight and advocate a bit more. If they're not really into you, they're going to be like, “Oh well. I'm not going to lose my job over this,” sort of thing. I've learned all of these things since. Eventually, after about 6 hours, I had another decel. I think I had about 3 in total. It wasn't a huge amount. Meagan: Yeah, and how low were they? Do you remember? Ashley: I don't remember. The problem was that she wasn't coming back as quickly as they would have liked. Meagan: Prolonged. Ashley: Yeah, it was prolonged. I also didn't know at the time that the epidural also slowed down my contractions too. I only know this from getting the hospital notes which is quite common with epidurals as well. Eventually, I just said, “Okay, fine. I'm fine. I'll go.” After the last one, it felt like my baby was at risk. If someone is coming to you every hour saying, “This is the risk. We recommend that,” eventually, you just give up. I think I had been in labor for a total of 12 hours at that point. The first labor I had ever had and off I went. As I was going out, the midwife said to me, “It's okay. I had a home birth planned, but I ended up in a Cesarean. You'll be okay.” I was like, “See? You never would have been on my team because you hadn't even had a vaginal birth yourself.” I looked at her and I was like, “That was the worst thing you could have ever said to me at that point.” I was like, “Just because you had one and you're okay with it doesn't mean that I'm okay with it.” It was the worst thing. She obviously thought it was really supportive, but I felt so betrayed. So off I went and I had my surgery. Everything started to go downhill. My husband got rushed out of the surgery with my baby and you could just feel that it was intense. I said to my husband, “I love you. Look after the baby. I think I'm either going to lose my uterus or I'm going to die.” Meagan: Were you hemorrhaging? Ashley: Basically, the story that they tell me, I'm not sure if I believe it, but even if it is true, it is what it is at the end of the day. One of the risks that they were worried about is when a baby descends too much, there's a– you know this yourself– there's always a risk of a special scar happening because there's more risk of a tear or them having to cut more. So that's what they were informing me about the whole time. They knew about the risk and they were trying to stop– Meagan: But they kept saying that baby was high, right? Ashley: They told me that baby was high. They said that when the baby came out, she flung her arm up and ripped it down to my cervix. Meagan: Oh, okay. Ashley: Now, how does that happen when a baby is up high? If she's up high, how is she ripping down to my cervix? Now I think about that. How does that happen? Because my cervix was fully dilated. Meagan: Yeah, except on that one side. Did it ever finish? That swelling, that edema, did it go down? Ashley: Not that I know of. What they told me was nothing had changed positioning in that. Then when I looked at the notes when I got the notes, he laid out, “I saw that the positioning had changed.” She had come down a station, but they never communicated that to me. I have a feeling that she was probably down a bit further than they had put because, on the paperwork, they also said I was only 7 centimeters. There was no mention of an anterior lip, so they fudged the papers a little bit and weren't honest. I mean, if you're going to make a few little changes, then obviously, there's a reason for that. It obviously looks better on paper. Meagan: That's what happens all of the time. The patient will hear one thing, then on the op reports, it's a little different. So we always encourage you to get your op reports. It's sometimes hard to read but get your op reports. Ashley: It is hard to read. You know, they put it on the board too here in Australia what you are and at what time, so the information is there for me to look at the whole time while I'm in labor, so it's not that one person just said it, it's literally on the board for you to see. I was quite upset when I saw some of the notes. I went through the notes. I've been through them multiple times now and I was just trying to learn. I was Googling, “What does this mean and what does that mean?” because I don't know the medical jargon. I'm learning all of the things and I'm looking at Spinning Babies. I'm looking at everything and trying to learn after the fact, but essentially what had happened was apparently, she had flung around there, tore my uterus down to the cervix and then they needed to call in a specialized team to come in and resolve that problem that they had created. The surgery went on for a number of hours and it was a very challenging surgery. I wanted to crawl out of my body essentially because I had been laying there for so long. It was just a horrible experience. I was reunited with my baby. She was born at 6:30. I was reunited with them at about 12:00 at night, so I had been in labor from 4:00 in the morning and then I was breastfeeding her because my husband advocated for her to be breastfed. So that meant that she had her sugars checked. They were fine, so they were happy for her to wait for me. I was really, really glad that my husband advocated for me. I was so tired when I got out of surgery and I was back in this hot room. I was sweating profusely. There was no aircon. Some of the rooms, even though it was new, didn't have aircon. I ended up in a room with no aircon and it was so hot. I had to have a midwife stay with me and do observations every 15 minutes to check me. I didn't end up in the ICU, but I lost 3.1 liters of blood. I had blood transfusions in the surgery, all of the stuff in the surgery to keep me awake, and all of that. I really wanted to go under, but they wouldn't put me under because I had been eating. It wasn't a great experience and I came out very traumatized from that experience. I ended up having PTSD with flashbacks. I was crying for months. I felt broken. They told me to never have a vaginal birth again, and that I could have two more babies so that was amazing. I was like, “Well, you must have done a good job if you think I could have two more,” but they must be born Cesarean. I was like, “Okay, no problems.” I was so grateful to be alive after that experience. I was trying to make sense of what had happened. The next few years, that was my mission to try to make sense because I've gone from a space of you're not allowed to have a vaginal birth to what happened, trying to understand what happened, and then planning our future because we wanted four children total. So I almost never had any more children. For 6-12 months, I was done. I was never going to go through that again. I was a broken person. I was really struggling, but I trained as a postpartum doula and I started to want to help women in breastfeeding and the things that I knew that I could support because I ended up breastfeeding that baby for 12 months and I felt like a success at that regard. I learned a lot about breastfeeding. I wanted to share my voice and help women, but I wasn't well enough to help women in the birth space because I felt like a failure. I was trying to learn and I wanted to be in a space where I felt safe. This was trauma and challenges were happening and this was me being able to help people and make a positive out of a negative essentially. And then I found you guys. I found your podcast and I was like, “This is amazing,” because you were the first place that was promoting VBAC after two Cesareans. Back then, nobody was having VBAC after two Cesareans let alone multiple now that we see happening. I think a lot of it has to do with your podcast because when you hear women's stories and you hear the statistics and you can actually hear other women doing it, that was the start of me getting hope and realizing that there was another way. Meagan: Oh, that just gave me the chills. Ashley: Thank you so much for your podcast. Meagan: I have a sweater on right now, but literally it just went up my arm. Ashley: Awesome. It is really nice to know that if I didn't come across your podcast, I probably wouldn't have taken that next step, so it is life-changing to hear other women's stories and have that resource. The fact that you guys had the stats and everything, I was very much in the stats trying to move through special scars. I eventually had gone onto Special Scars, Special Hope. Meagan: Such a good group. Ashley: Yeah, so amazing and started to connect with other women who were having worse scars than me. They were birthing on classical scars. I was like, holy moly. I think it was ACOG or maybe RANZ of New Zealand and Australia. They said it was okay to labor on a scar like mine because I had a vertical scar down to my cervix. That's the low-risk special scar. I was like, “If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.” Look at these people saying that. All of the obstetricians that I had spoken to because I had a meeting with an obstetrician. I had met with so many midwives who knew about the system. They said to me, “Look. They are going to be petrified of you coming to the system.” It was really good to get that feedback and from my own experience, they wouldn't allow me to have a VBAC let alone a VBAC after two Cesareans with a special scar and high BMI. I started to really try to uncover, so I met with an obstetrician from that hospital and she basically said to me, “Look, you're a square peg trying to fit in a round hole or a round peg in a square hole.” I looked at her. I didn't understand that. I had never that and I have never been referred to as that kind of person. I quite like doing what normal people do. I was looking at her. I'm like, “What are you talking about?” She just said to me, “Basically, I ended up with this surgery because the surgery who was working had decided that because of my weight, that that was all that I was capable of or that was the path that I was going through.” That was really the first time that I've felt like my weight has actually held me back or I've been discriminated against. When I look back at the fact of how I was treated and the conversations I was having, it was obvious that it was happening the whole way through, I just was so naive to it that it was happening in my face and I didn't even realize it because the thing is that I understand that being of high weight can put you at risk for all of these things. I'm looking at it from their point of view, but I'm not actually sometimes looking at it from Ashley's point of view. I understand their concern and I understood all of the medical stuff because I had listened to them. I had asked questions. I had read their policies for obese people. I understood that it was discrimination. I didn't understand it at the time. I didn't understand that they probably weren't seeing me as a human as maybe they would have if I was a skinny version of myself. We probably would have had a different conversation. They probably would have been cheering me on and holding my hand and saying, “You're an amazing VBAC candidate. We support you. We probably still want to do all of these things to you, but we're not going to kick you out of hospital.” That's the difference when I hear women's stories. Oh, she's allowed to get in the water bath and she's allowed to have a beautiful birth. She doesn't have to bend over backward and do a cartwheel and it's because she looks a certain way or she was really lucky because she got an obstetrician that was amazing. There are all of these things that have to line up. That's what has propelled me on my journey to find home birth as an option. Meagan: Home birth, home birth. So you talked about stats. You were on this mission of stats, so you went out and you found the stats about VBAC after multiple Cesareans, two Cesareans, special scars, found some stuff, said, “Okay, this seems acceptable,” and then you started a home birth. Based off of your own research, for you, you felt completely comfortable starting this journey. Ashley: No, I didn't. Meagan: Okay. Ashley: I didn't. I mean, I had to work through the fears with the stats and I was comfortable with home birth and the idea of home birth. I understood that home birth was as safe as birthing in a hospital and I understood that if I was birthing with a midwife I would have a medical person with me. Now, the next challenge that came for me was that I couldn't find a home birth midwife who would support me. I feel like I leveled up. I was leveling up the whole time. It was like, now you've got a VBA2C. Now you've got a special scar. Let's work through this. What do I feel comfortable with? What am I willing to take on? Okay, okay. That's doable. That's doable. I can work through that. What's the next thing? Oh yeah, the next thing is this. Okay, what am I going to do with that? A home birth. Okay, a home birth feels like a safe option. I can do this. I can do that. I can do that. Okay, that's going to be the best thing for me. I'm not going to go back to hospital. Meagan: I love that you said that. I can do this. I'm comfortable with this. You kind of have to go through that with anything. In life in general, but especially with this birth, you went through it and you were like, “Okay, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Now, here I am.” Ashley: Yeah and I was seeing a psychologist at the time for all of the things to help me lose weight actually. My GP, I wanted to lose weight. I've been overweight my whole life. I wanted to lose weight. I went to a nutritionist and she was like, “You know everything. I think it's emotional.” I've got childhood stuff going on. I worked with him and I said, “The way that I feel about the hospital system, is this right?” He's normalizing my experience for me and saying, “You're perfectly normal.” I'm trying to say, “Am I having a trauma response here? I don't want to go into a home birth because I'm having a trauma response,” because the obstetrician said to me, one of them, she's like– she wasn't the best obstetrician for the debrief. She said to me, “You've got a risk of special scar, a 7% rupture rate.” I said, “That's a little bit different from what I found in Special Scars, Special Hope where they are looking at women.” I said, “Have you got any statistics?” She's like, “No.” I'm like, “So how can I trust that what you're saying is correct then?”Meagan: Well then, where'd you get 7%?Ashley: Exactly. She's like, “Look, if you find any doctor who's willing to support you, then they're not the doctor for you. I'm telling you what is the safest thing for you.” I was challenging her because at this point, I'm angry. I'm so done. I'm so done. I've just been through hell because of you people and I want to get information. I don't want to hear your judgments. She said to me, “If you find a doctor, then basically they're not right. They're doing the wrong thing.” I said, “So you're the best doctor in the whole world? You know everything right? You're the best and you know the best then? So if I find another doctor who says yes then they're wrong and you're right, that's what you're saying?” She was just looking at me. She was like, “I just feel like what you're going to do is you're going to keep looking until you're going to find someone and then you're going to put yourself at risk.”I'm like, “That is exactly what I'm going to do.” Meagan: You're like, “Well, I'm glad you feel that way.” Ashley: I should have sent her a postcard after my free birth and said, “I freebirthed. Thank you for driving me to this.” It is amazing the conversations you have when you really do have conversations. You can see where they're coming from and how very different their views are. Some of the fears and worries that they have are not about you and your baby. They are about themselves and their career, but the information I didn't know about her was that she was actually the head of obstetrics and she just lost her title and her job. She'd been bumped down. The reason why I went to her was because she supported breech birth in hospital and she was very vaginal friendly. She did support me. She was the consultant I saw on the paperwork that supported me to have a vaginal birth, but in the timeframe of me organizing to meet up with her, the information that I didn't know that I found out later was that she lost her job because she had supported somebody to have a breech and there was a poor outcome that the parents accepted, but somebody else had basically complained about. The only thing is that breech is so risky they say even though it's not. She's one of the radical obstetricians so she had been punished and so she was coming from a space of where she was. It's really important to know that information. You never know where they are in their career or how they are feeling, so she might have been really bitter at the time and negative and feeling like there was doom and gloom in the world. It was really shameful when I was speaking to my doula friends and they were like, “Oh really? She was so amazing.” I'm like, “Yeah, well maybe she is amazing but not for people like me. Maybe she supports this person because they've got a thin body and because of me, she's like, ‘No. I wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot pole,'” because it's too risky for her and for her job also. They are up against it as well in the system and that's something I have learned. My next mission was that I needed to find a midwife who was going to bat for me, not somebody who was going to be worried about losing their career because they come after the midwives too that are home birthing. So I had gone to the free birth podcast as well and I was listening to their stories. I was like, “They're a bit out there for me. I'm not brave enough to do that. That's a bit radical.” Eventually, my husband was the one that talked me into a free birth when we couldn't have a midwife to support me. It

Hi everyone and welcome. Today, I have the pleasure of re-interviewing the amazing Dana Whitby about card reading. Dana has been on the podcast before so you can go back and check out that previous episode because she always has so much to share.    Thank you so much for being here with us today again! Dana: Thank you so much for having me, Ashley. Ashley: So for those of you who remember Dana, you probably recall that she is the host of the Soul Rising Podcast, which is one of my faves. It is so worth binge listening to, so if you are in quarantine and you need something to do, the Soul Rising Podcast is so so perfect. I was wondering if you could tell everybody a little bit about your journey? You have so many roles in your work as an empath and a Healer. Dana: Yes, thank you so much, Ashley. First of all, I am just so excited to be here. I love spending time with you Ashley. So, I began my podcast journey almost two years ago, and this really was born out of a spiritual awakening that I had a few years prior. I started going down this path of wanting to heal myself and searching out different healing modalities. I had become certified in regression and hypnosis as well as Reiki -- I am also just interested in any homeo-healing modality that comes my way. My podcast is really a way to share what I have learned and the different ways that we can find to heal, because they are absolutely endless. I want to share them with my listeners to help ignite a passion for someone along that path. It has always been born out of wanting to heal myself and that goes way back into my childhood. I have a degree in Psychology and a master's degree in counseling. So those are kind of my more mainstream modalities that started me on this path. Eventually though that really dovetailed into a spiritual awakening that opened up so much more. So now I offer intuitive one-on-one Oracle readings and custom meditations. These really help my listeners deepen their practice with getting in touch with themselves, what is going on for them right now, and how to take their healing to a deeper level. Ashley: I think this is really cool because you have kind of created this podcast from your own journey taking others along the ride with you. You are like, come along with me as I discover all these things about healing and about myself, and about how we fit into the world. And now you are doing some more one-on-one kind of heart-level connections with people. You're getting to go a little bit deeper into the individual journeys and stories of each person. I'm wondering, how did this really come about for you? What was the driving factor behind deciding to incorporate readings into the healing work that you do? Could you also share a little bit about how that journey has evolved? I know there are so many of you listening or reading who want to do this kind of work. Dana is so courageous to really get going with it and do it. So Dana, we would love to hear that story. Dana: Yes. It really began almost five years ago. I went to a medium and at that time I was open to spiritual topics, but I did not know much about them. I knew I wanted to go to someone who would not just connect me with my dead grandmother, I wanted guidance. Because I felt so lost in my life and she gave me this beautiful reading and basically said to me you are an intuitive and you are not using your abilities and I just was so floored. I had this feeling like, "Who, me?" I did not think I was anything special at that point in my life. That was really how I felt about myself. So that really pushed me to start looking into my own intuition and to think, "Okay, well, if really everyone has intuition, how does it show up for me? What are my abilities? What can I do?" and so the medium that I saw began teaching intuitive listening courses. I was among her very first cohort in her class to take her intuitive listening class,

Today I'm so excited to get to be speaking with the amazing ladies at Energy Muse, Heather Askinosie and Timmi Jandro. So ladies, thank you so much for being here with us today.     I've been really looking forward to talking to you both again. Our last conversation really got me thinking...One of the things that we touched on during that interview was clearing cords with crystal energy. So, I thought that would be a great thing to share with everyone today. Can you tell us a little bit about energetic cords? Timmi Jandro: So, sometimes people don't even realize that they have attached to someone energetically. Again, I could just use Heather and I as an example. We're around each other a lot. And so, let's say I come in and I'm having a terrible day. I might not mean to put that energy towards Heather, but because we're so close, she feels it. It's a good practice that we use often because you want to just be free of that energy and it's not like she's cutting me out of her life. She's cutting that energetic cord, sending light my way to replace that cut or that energy that's been cut. Then we move on and you feel a lot lighter because when you're a sensitive person and you're around people, you can pick up on energy so easily. And even when you're not so sensitive, it happens. Ashley: So, for someone who's new to this concept, they probably haven't heard this term before. So these are really just energetic attachments between people. Can we be corded to places or objects as well? Heather Askinosie: Yeah. I think, for me how I get my head around it, because I always have to get my head around it, is that when we get attached to something. Say it could be a crystal, and when you see this crystal and you're like, oh, I really want it, but it's maybe out of my price range or what not, but you can't stop thinking about it. So that could be more of an object. Or sometimes we can be attached to places we've traveled to and emotions and experiences that we had there. The reason it's important to cut the cords, even if it's a fantastic experience, is that we want to have all our energy fully invested in ourselves. I don't want to be leaking it, whether it's good, bad, or indifferent. And so, cutting the cords helps you really find out where you're leaking your energy. Where are your thoughts in the past? Where are your thoughts in the future? It can keep us from being in the now moment because we're not fully present. So, I look at it as an almost spiritual housecleaning. That way, we are empowered to be in the present moment. It gives us a tool to help us cut or disconnect. Ashley: Yeah, that's so true. And you touched on my next question a little bit there, which was... What really happens to our energy body when we have these cords or attachments? You mentioned this idea of an energy leak. Now, can you explain to everyone why that is a bad thing? Timmi Jandro: For me, you might feel physically drained. So it might be more of a physical thing. And if you look at it energetically, it might be that one of your chakras where the attachment has occurred may be blocked because that cord is there to another person. Heather Askinosie: So, this might be going a little bit deeper. I don't know if it's too much, but I'm just going to say it. What I'm researching now with crystals is how trauma is held in our body. Specifically, how we could use the energy of the earth to help us go back on a cellular level and re-pattern ourselves. Okay. So, hypothetically, you're in fifth grade and you're playing on the bars at school, and you fall off and somebody laughs at you. A lot of times we think, you know what, maybe that didn't have any kind of traumatic effect on us. But maybe it did. In some little respect, it made us not feel as confident. So maybe we didn't go on the bars as much. How does that one little event play out over time and how can we use cutting the cords on a deeper level?

James: This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth through Value-Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Ashley Wilson from Philadelphia. Ashley is a specialist in Asset and Construction Management; she is an asset manager and also taking care of construction as well. So it's going to be a very interesting discussion. She has a GP in 350 units and also have invested as an LP and working on deals on her own as well, which is awesome.  Hey Ashley, welcome to the show.  Ashley:  Thank you so much for having me.  James: Good. Have you been on podcasts before?  Ashley: Yes.  James: Okay. A lot of podcasts?  Ashley: Yes.  James: Okay, good. So it looks like you're going through that podcast circuit, I guess, right? Ashley: Yes. I have been on the podcast circuit for a little while now, yeah. James: Good. So a lot of times when I bring guests into my podcast show, I usually bring operators, which are people who buy deals, who does the raising money, who does the asset management as well and who also do the rest of the investor relationship as well. A lot of times some people do not do third party property management or in house property management. They are not [inaudible 01:18] integrated, but some are. You are special because now you are an asset manager, right? And you also do construction. Can you tell us a bit more about your role as an asset manager and construction manager? Ashley: Absolutely. So what I like to tell people about operations on multifamily is operations are very important in a down market, they are the most important and what I like to specialize in is everything from once a property goes under contract, even prior to that looking at the numbers, making sure that we account for how things actually happen, as opposed to just accepted statistics in multifamily in terms of underwriting, because every market is different and the way in which you operate a property can be vastly different from market to market.  So being very well versed on what things work within a specific market accounting forward within underwriting, then verifying it during the due diligence process and then ultimately operating according to the business plan, or if the business plan needs to be adjusted to make better value for the property and an ultimately a better return for the investors is what I enjoy doing the most, the property, the real estate component of multifamily is what excites me. I know some people really enjoy networking with investors and going to dinners and doing all of those things while that can be very exciting, it's really exciting to me, the property and how much money I can squeeze out of a property. That's what I enjoy doing. James: Got it. I'm an asset manager as well so I really appreciate what you're saying because you can go around and raise money from people. You do a lot of advertising marketing too to get people to give money to invest and a lot of people give up on that, right? But once you close on the deal, executing the business plan is the harder part, right? It's not closing the deal. It's easy to close the deal, especially pre-COVID and market-speak. There's so much money chasing multifamily. There's so much Bootcamp and so many people who want to invest right, everybody has this formal effect, right? But you're right, I mean, executing the business plan is hard, right?  And I've seen a lot of people who were very motivated before closing because they tell all the fun story but after closing, they're very quiet or they don't really talk about their performance on their property, right? Nobody really declares about their property performance because it's hard to really do post closing execution, right?  So let's talk about when do you come? I mean there's asset management fee and some passive investors, especially new one who comes in, ask me, why are you taking asset management fee, right? Why not an asset manager which is the same as the property manager? Can you differentiate between that? I can add my things and differentiate property management and asset management. Ashley: Yes. So there are a couple of questions there. I think that investors seeking an answer to. The first being the difference between the two positions, property managers and asset managers, a lot of times when you speak to people who own multifamily, they see that a property manager works for an asset manager. I do not see that the same way, I see it as we're a team and we work together and the only way you can achieve your business plan optimally is working in conjunction in partnering. And ultimately the asset manager has a different number one client that they're answering to, they're answering to the investors, the property managers they're answering to the tenants and they're making sure that the property is the best property for that particular tenant, that demographic and if someone doesn't really understand everything that a property manager is doing, a property manager, in my opinion, is comparable to a teacher. They have more things on their plate than they have hours in a day. They are doing marketing; they're doing general service complaint calls, et cetera for the property. So they're managing the current tenant base while also trying to attract a new tenant base and also trying to execute a business plan for the ownership group. It is very difficult to do especially in terms of the metrics, the national metrics for number of property managers per unit; typically it's one inside one outside's per a hundred units. So for example, a hundred unit property would have one interior, a property manager, and then one maintenance person on-site for every hundred units you have. That can happen on a property that is a stabilized asset, but a lot of times, especially the properties that I go after their value add assets. So there are things firing on all cylinders because there's deferred maintenance that we're tackling, there are tenants that should not be in the property that was put in the property probably by pre-released ownership so they're really trying to tackle a lot of different things. The asset manager, on the other hand, answers to the investors. The asset manager is the person responsible for protecting your investment, they're responsible for maximizing every single dollar that's placed in that apartment, we want to try to get two times that dollar three times that dollar up, ten times that dollar, that's what we're trying to do, every single investment we make on a property. So what we're doing is we are the added layer of protection. We're looking to make sure that the day to day operations are not only executing that business plan that you have in place but also maximizing the investment. And I say that, and it sounds like a broken record, but truly that is what an asset manager does and there are so many things to make sure that you're doing from vetting contractors, making sure that you're getting the best price on the renovation too. It's very strategic when you're doing renovations, how you should do the renovations, how much you should do, how little you should do, what rents you can charge, what's the absorption rate, what is the market comparables in that market that you can push the rents? There are so many different components, I could probably talk for an hour alone on just different components that I look at even on a daily basis, let alone on a weekly or monthly or quarterly basis. So to me, it's a full-time job and that is why personally I've been able to execute business plans a lot faster than, you know, I've had two properties where I've had to execute a business plan on the first property. It was a two-year business plan with a refi in year three, and I was able to execute it all under budget within a year. So I think that's pretty impressive and then on my most recent property, it was a four-year business plan that after we executed the renovation over four years, then we were at the end of three years, we would refinance in year four and we were able to execute the business plan in actually less than a year and also under budget. So that is the difference between having someone oversee your investment on the asset manager side and work in conjunction with the property management team. I've been very blessed to have an incredible property management team that I work with on these properties. So for us now we have systems in place to make it even easier to execute everything we do. James: Got it. So let me summarize what Ashley just mentioned, right? So asset managers basically approve, execute property budgets. They look at property financial reporting and making sure that budgets are met and at the same time they also have to make sure that you are able to execute what you thought in the beginning, whatever performer and whatever the original sponsor has planned for that and they have to make sure they hit that, but as for the budget as well, right? So do you work any part of it as part of the investor side of it like investor tax document and any other things on the investor portal and all that, or is it all that a sponsor takes care of it and asset managers on the asset? Ashley: Well, I also am a sponsor, I sign on loans, I'm not just doing asset management and I've also brought my own investors in, on deals as well. So in terms of being fully involved, 60 knots of whether or not we execute a cost segregation study, getting the K ones out, getting all the information, I provide all the reports to the investors. I'm the one who creates all the reports for the investors. So really I'm doing soup to nuts and I do it in a very granular fashion. So I'm a full-time real estate investor. I think there are a lot of opportunities for people to get in multifamily while working at W2 and there's a point in which you absolutely need to transition. I don't know how someone could keep up with all the work that you need to do for an asset manager of a larger property. When you are also juggling a W2 on maybe a more stabilized asset you could probably do that, but in terms of the volume, if you want to scale, ultimately what you would be looking to do is to do it full time, which is what I do. So in terms of prepping everything that the investor needs for whether it's preparing their taxes or doing things for the property, I just really make sure that I'm the glue that puts all those pieces together. James:  Got it. So let's go a bit more technical here, right? So you have a plan from the sponsor, right? So when you're working as part of the sponsorship team as well, and now you said, Ashley, you're going to asset manage this, right? And we talk about absorption rate and renovation progress, right? So let's go into each one of those and you say like four to five key indicators that you look at. Can we just quickly summarize that? What are the four to five key indicators that you look on either daily or weekly basis? Ashley: Okay. So first I also wanted to mention that despite how many properties I have, I also consult with other sponsorship groups. What they'll do is they'll bring me in and I will basically audit their property and I will point out all the things that they could improve upon. So there are things that I look at when I'm auditing other sponsors deals and then they're also things that I look at on a daily basis for my property, I can speak to the things that I think probably most people who asset manage. They don't have the time to look at things on a daily basis so they're probably looking at it more on a weekly basis. So I'll share what I look at on a weekly basis because what I look at daily versus what I look at weekly what I look at monthly and quarterly are completely different. So what I look at on a weekly basis is obviously I'm going to look at my traffic, I'm going to look at my occupancy, I'm going to look at move-ins and move-outs, I'm going to look at work orders. How many of those emergency work orders, categorizing the work orders, time of resolution, and then in terms of repeat work orders and or the reviews of the work orders. So in terms of whether or not someone would give the work order a five-star review or one star, those are things I'm looking at. I'm also looking on the traffic side- where's my traffic originating from, my source and what's my conversion rate on those sources. So that way, I know very thoroughly, which traffic sources are working, which traffic sources aren’t. I also look at it on a weekly basis specials within the market to make sure that my property remains competitive. I look at my renewal rate; I look at a lot of different things. I'm trying to see if I'm remembering every single aspect of everything that I look at, but ultimately what I'm trying to do is I'm looking at the property in such a detailed fashion as if I was operating the property with boots on the ground. So that way I can make little adjustments immediately when I see that there's a need, as opposed to waiting until let's say, for example, I've plugged a lot of money into a marketing campaign that I don't see working, three weeks in, I'm going to yank that marketing campaign as opposed to keep it running for six months and lose that investment when I could have plugged it into a resource, it's giving me a higher conversion rate and higher traffic. So that's really the things that I'm looking at. I'm looking at how to influence the people who are coming into the property and how to influence the people to stay at the property. James: Got it. So let's talk about renovation per unit, right? I mean, before you close on the property, I mean, let's say for example, 5,000 per unit, right? And post-closing, how's that 5,000 per unit budget being tracked? How do you know that it's very effective in terms of your rent growth and your annual growth and meeting your business plan? Ashley:  So when I go into a property, I know exactly what I'm going to do to that unit and day one, I pick every single finish that I want for that property. So that's inclusive of if I'm going to change the flooring, I pick out the exact flooring I want, I pick out the paint, I pick out everything and then what I do with my management company is because I'm not located in Texas and my properties are located in Texas, we've implemented systems where we have a tracking system so it initiates what units are available to be renovated and what condition they're in and then we put together a package on what that particular unit needs. So I know to a penny, how much that unit costs to be renovated and then ultimately what I do is then I track the progress of the unit through pictures before pictures storing and after pictures. So I can see the progress of the unit and then I can see what the total cost of the unit, if there are any change orders, typically I don't have change orders unless there is something extremely grave at the property that is unexpected but I've been in construction long enough to know I'm raised by a general contractor who had his own business for over 40 years. I'm very well versed in construction that I know how to negotiate prices, I also have a lot of contacts so I can get prices down pretty well so in terms of verifying afterward, I then confirm the cost for the unit and then I have my own tracking system to ensure that I stay below budget and that's how I've been able to stay below budget on all of my projects. James: So let's go into that process, right? So now you have a unit that you're going to renovate and I presume the property manager is the one that is going to give you the budget on the progression of whatever being spent on that unit. Is that right? Ashley: Well, what I do is I package it. So I know, for example, there are two things in construction. It all comes down to labor and material. I know how much material it's going to cost me and we have a checklist on what that individual unit needs so I already know upfront what the material is going to cost me and then what it comes down to is what the labor is going to cost me and in terms of the price per labor, everyone should know how much it costs to switch out an outlet, how much it costs to switch out a fixture, how much it costs to paint a room. I know all of these numbers. So if someone says to me, okay, this unit costs this much and it's over budget I can then question them and say, why is it over budget? And they'll say because our guys spent three more hours, so why did they spend three more hours on this unit versus another unit? Oh, well there were some issues. Well, you walk that unit in advance, you knew what the unit condition looks like and let's say it's painting, you knew like unless I replaced like a put up a whole new wall or took out a wall and I reframed it like you knew what the estimate was, you knew the square footage of the wall that you were going to paint. We have it priced for rooms. So it's very easy for me to argue, because I know it's such a granular level that I can get the price down and that's how I confirm that I stay on budget is to know all of the prices to that level. James:  So you are assuming that, or maybe you already have a really good crew, which is working as what was planned, right? Otherwise, you're going to always question then why you guys are late because that's another variable, right? You have to schedule, right? I mean, you have your materials of labor cost, but they can take forever to finish one unit. How do you keep track of that one unit renovation? Ashley: So we have, in terms of scheduling, we have certain times in which we release a certain amount of units and then they get them to renovate. I have worked with contractors for years now, across all different types of properties-single-family, multifamily. And if one thing I have learned across along that process is that when you work with someone for the first time, you're not going to give them an entire job, you're going to give them a piece of a job and they're going to have to prove themselves to get the rest of the job. These contractors, when I have large multifamily properties, they want the entire job. So they're going to work very diligently at the beginning and hopefully throughout the entire project, but most likely they're going to work very diligently at the very beginning. So I will give them a little piece of what I need them to do in terms of the grand scope, but I'm not going to give them the whole scope of the project initially when I have no track record with someone. So I'll give them a little piece of the pie at the beginning. If they prove themselves, I'll give them a little piece more. If there are any issues upfront, I just pull that crew and get a new crew immediately. So I minimize my risk of loss and I minimize my risk of loss of time. So it's a loss of time and a loss of dollar amount and honestly, time is also equitable to dollar amount too. So that way I just minimize the risks across both. James: Yep. Well, that's exactly what we do as well. I mean, we usually hire for a few new projects. We hire like two, three crews, and give them a small portion and see who's doing the best and kick out the other two and keep one and keep on giving them the work, which is a good validation of what we do too, right? Thanks for that and how do you work with the property managers onsite? Because you can't be on site, so you need a lot of communication unless the contractor is giving you the data directly to you through some kind of Excel spreadsheet or you're having meetings with them. So you're doing both. Ashley: Yes, both. So first before I got into real estate, I worked in pharmaceuticals, I worked in clinical research and development and I worked on global clinical trials. So I worked on studies all over the world and I had to leverage technology. So my entire professional career, entire working career has always been in a virtual capacity. I had become very well versed on how to work remotely and I've put into play different things to make it very advantageous for me to work remotely by leveraging technology, I've taken that same approach and applied it to multifamily. Before I got into multifamily, I built up a very successful high-end flipping business in the suburbs of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and I did that whole business while living in Europe. So even though I lived in Europe, I created a flipping company while living back in the States, I've taken the same approach and I've done the same thing in Philadelphia suburbs now back living in the States and my properties are in Texas.  So to be honest with you, it was a lot harder when I was working in Europe, creating the flipping company that I'm faced with today. I already had all of the systems that I built up on the flipping company, and I've just been able to apply them on the multifamily side of things. Unfortunately, there's only an hour time difference as opposed to I had anywhere between a six to nine-hour difference because at one point I was living in Russia. So it's been very easy for me to make that transition. I have never had any single time where I said, oh, I wish I was like right down the street from the property, because the way in which I react and manage would not change by being on the property, you don't need to be physically at the property. Now, do I still go down to the property? Yes. I go down to the properties quarterly to check on the property. Also, I think there's much to be said about the relationship that's built between your onsite team and the ownership group and I think it's really paramount if you want to run a successful business, which multifamily is real estate and business. So I don't discount that, but I definitely think that your operations, as long as you have an excellent team, which we make sure that we always put a really great team in place that you still can be successful.  James: How do you test rent growth based on the rehab? Ashley: In terms of how much I can push the rent prior to completing the project or afterward for absorption? James: For absorption. So basically, there's a certain limit of rent growth based on the rehab that you're doing, right? So how do you test that? How much you can get based on the rehab that you're doing? Ashley: So I'm huge into understanding the market demographics. So what I do is I spend a lot of time researching market comparables. I look at if I was a prospective tenant, what properties would I look at and why, what property would attract me, would I be willing to pay an extra $10 more for property A versus property B? And what are their amenities? We live in an amenity based society right now where people love the bells and whistles that properties provide. They love having a pool, they love having laundry in their unit, they love having like in Texas carports or garages, there are certain amenities that based on the market draw people in and that changes by market. That doesn't mean just because you're in Texas everyone wants a carport, some places they don't care. They're not going to pay extra for, you really need to understand your market very thoroughly and then compete with what that market wants.  If the market is a tech-based market, maybe you should implement thermostats that are able to be controlled with your phone or laundry facilities that are able to be controlled by your phone. If you're not in a tech-based market if you're in maybe a secondary tertiary market, I'm not saying all the secondary tertiary markets, but I'm just saying, if you're not, as close to a major MSA or primary market, they might not be as well versed in technology and they might not see why they would pay extra. It's really about understanding the market, understanding what is renting in a market, what properties have high occupancy, what their rents are at, what their specials are at, what amenities they have, and then trying to compete on that level. I walk the other properties. So when I go tour the area, I always make sure to tour other properties and see what their unit interiors look like, what their exteriors look like. I want to secret shop these properties because I want to understand what a prospective tenant is looking at. I want to understand how they are greeted by their staff. I want to understand if a market is Hispanic speaking, let's say right, and they want someone to greet them in Spanish and they want Texas, TAA contract in Spanish, like a Texas Apartment Association contract in Spanish, these contracts. So they're very little things, the devil's in the details. It's really important that you understand the details of the market. And then you ensure that you are exploiting them on your property. So people want to live on your property. You're providing a better value than competing properties, and that's how he tests it. So then I can see, okay, this property, they're not doing granite counters, but they're getting a hundred dollar rent bump over what we had initially projected. So we don't need to go with granite counters, maybe our business plan had granite counters in it and we don't need to go with granite counters because I know the market will pay a hundred dollars more, even despite the fact that they have granite counters. So some people like to over-improve. It's no different in flipping people do the same thing in flipping all the time. You really need to understand not how little you can put in to get the maximum value, but in a sense, that is true. James: I mean, follow up question to what I asked just now is like, for example, let's say an ownership group, come to you to do consultation and they said, hey, we plan for 3000 per door until rehab, and we want to get $150 a rent bomb and that was all planned and now you are coming in, how do you communicate to them that that $3,000 is not going to get 150 rent bump? I mean, have you been in that kind of situation? Ashley: Yes. I have been in that situation and I've been in this situation where I've been given a business plan and I went down and did due diligence with this ownership group as a consultant and I said, hey, this is not what you want to do. You want to do X, Y, and Z and you're going to get this rent bump instead and it's a better return on your investment. So I think it's very hard to argue with numbers, right? So I understand underwriting very thoroughly and all I have to do is take their underwriting and plug in what I think the business plan should be and show them their underwriting versus mine and ultimately I think that kind of speaks volumes to speak in that language most people who are in multifamily, I would say, are very proficient with mathematics and finance and understanding underwriting, especially if they're the key principle. So if you're dealing with the key principle, the operator you really just have to speak their language and ultimately they should want the best return on their investment. So I've never had anyone disagree with the strategies I've recommended. No one has really taken it negatively at all. James:  If they already closed on the deal and you're coming now, and you think that it's not realistic Ashley: In terms of it not being realistic and squeezing the dollar out that really comes into a lot of people don't bring on a construction manager and I think that's a huge shortcoming on a team. I think that a lot of people try to shortcut that position because they think they can outsource construction management to a third-party vendor. I think third party vendors when you hire a construction manager, they're paid off of the cost of the total construction and, therefore, they are not motivated by the same reasons that your team is motivated, which is to get the highest return for your investment. So ultimately my suggestion to them is that they need to bring on a construction manager if they don't want to bring on me, which I'm not doing this to sell myself, I'm doing this to help people. I find the more people I help, it comes back to me. I never have to worry about it. So I just say to them that I recommend bringing a construction manager who is motivated by the same reasons as them. I get approached often to be compensated as a construction manager from a flat fee and my comment back to them is if I take this, then I'm a hypocrite because what I'm telling you is that you should bring someone on who is motivated by the same reasons. The only way you will find someone who's motivated by the same reasons if they have a piece of the GP equity, because then the more work they do and the more they put into it, the more they get on the back end and that's why you should have someone on the construction management side. And the reason I propose having someone on the construction management side is those are the type of people who not only can negotiate something, but I've used this example in other podcasts where I call it the porch deck scenario or whatever you want to call it. But basically what I'm saying is that you can go to a property and on the property, you have a patio and on that patio, it's a second-floor patio and when you do the due diligence, you have a contractor come in and say, all of these have to be ripped down and they have to be report and the framing has to be redone and you need new posts, a new joyce, and new concrete slap, okay. That is one way to fix it, right? But there's another way to fix it. And that contractor is not doing you just service by telling you that they're doing it because when they do their due diligence, they are not giving you advice based off of a hold period. They're not assuming that you're going to hold the property. They probably don't even know how long you intend to hold the property for whereas a member of your team is going to know, okay, we're trying to access this property in three years or exit this property in five years and really what could happen instead is you share up one of the posts or two of the posts, and you have all these cracks on the patio, but really it's a facade and it could be just resurfaced and it'll get you through maybe five to ten years, but you plan to exit the property in three years so it won't be that big of a deal and it won't be that big of a risk and you're talking the difference between maybe a 3 to $5,000 repair job versus 500.  So by having someone who not only understands the process of construction but understands the different mechanisms in which to solve problems and negotiate. That's what you're looking for in a construction manager. You're not looking for someone who's just good at managing construction and knows a very high level of construction. You're looking for someone who really knows the details of construction because that is the way they provide the most amount of value to you. I mean, there's a reason why I've been able to save hundreds of thousands of dollars on cap X budgets, hundreds of thousands and it's because I know construction like this, and I'm not just saying like, toot my own horn. I'm saying you should seek someone if you're not going to seek me, you should seek someone like me who is going to save you hundreds of thousands of dollars and get the project done faster because at the end of the day if I can hit my business plan after year one versus year three or year four, that's a different exit opportunity or a different other capital event, which is a refi. So that gets your money back to your investors. It could drastically change your returns. It gives you a better track record. I mean, ultimately that is your ACE in the hole, so to speak of executing your property. James: Got it. Yeah. Very interesting. I mean, construction manager or which whoever managing that construction budget it can give us a lot of benefit in terms of reducing costs and exiting the plan as quickly as possible, right? I mean who should be hiring a construction manager at how many units or what kind of project should they be hiring a construction manager? Ashley: I'd like to say that someone on your team should be well versed in construction. If you plan to have any property that is multiunit even on a duplex or quite small multifamily, you want to make sure that you are either connected with someone or know someone, because the example that I like to always say to anyone who has ever owned a house, if you own one house, a single-family residence, right? And you've owned it for a year; I don't know anyone who can tell me they've owned a single-family residence for a year without needing some sort of work on that house, something. So when you extrapolate that across a hundred plus units across a three to five-plus year hold, you are magnifying, the need for someone of that skill set.  So maybe on the smaller properties, it's easy to like outsource it but when you get to larger properties and especially when you're taking in investors, I think it becomes more important that you safeguard that person's investment. That's why I think it's really important. It's an added layer of protection for people, whether its college funds for their kids, retirement money, generational wealth, it doesn't matter the reason you want to protect their investment. I forgot your second part of that question. James: Well, the second part is like I'm missing that second part as well, but let's go to the next question because that was a long answer, but I have a follow up question to you. I mean, in terms of the most valuable value add, right in multifamily, I mean, you have done quite a number of construction projects on multifamily. What do you think is the most valuable value add for high ROI? Ashley: Before I got into multifamily, I used to think that the interiors were the most important part of the value add, because I thought that where someone lives, where they sleep at night, where they're raising their family I was like, okay, that makes the most amount of sense, but the more I'm in multifamily and just in real estate in general, I am more of an opposite opinion, which I think the exterior matters way more than the interior and I see that across multiple markets, I think if you were asking me for a specific market, what's the best ROI. That might be a different answer, but in terms of just a general blanket statement, I think people are really concerned of the impression that they give off. And I can tell you that I see market after market, where the exteriors are stunning and the interiors are horrific, and they have the highest occupancy and they're able to collect the highest rent bumps in the market and then alternatively, I've seen beautiful interiors, but the exteriors are really dated and those are typically the ones that are maybe a little bit more challenging, but they are definitely not competing with the other properties and I think people don't tend to look to do the exterior because the exterior costs more and it's a huge gamble and they don't see the added value but ultimately if you focus on the exterior, you impact the entire property. If you focus on the interior, you're only impacting one unit at a time. So the bump in ROI is only when you complete an individual unit whereas bringing people on the property, to begin with, can be sometimes the hardest part. That's why even on single-family, they always say the exterior matters more than the interior, getting someone to visit that property, getting someone to tour it, they want to buy it. It's all about the facade. It's all about this illusion of the lifestyle that someone's living. James: Maybe it's social proof, I guess, right? You live in a nice house too. You can show it to others, I guess, right? That's my apartment, looks really nice, but who cares about the inside, I guess, right? And I've seen a lot of times owners who have been doing this very long time. When they buy a deal, they just do exterior and they say interior somebody else can do it and they sell it quickly after they do the exterior. I mean, that's a very interesting perspective that you're able to get high occupancy. You may not get a high rent bomb, but you may get high occupancy and stable demographic if you have a nice exterior, but the rent bomb comes from the inside, I guess, right? Interiors as well so I think the valuable side is more on the exterior side because that brings in people, right?  Ashley: Absolutely.  James: Got it. So let's go to your personal side of it. I mean, as part of your venture into single-family and multifamily do you have a proud moment that you can never forget? One proud moment that is going to be living with you throughout your life. Ashley: I'm really just proud of the people I work with and I partner with. I have gone through some really challenging things with apartments and when I talk with other people, when I talk to owners and operators, who've been in multifamily for 10 plus years, they haven't even gone through half the things that I have gone through. And in the moment I'm like, Oh my God, what do I do? And a bit frustrated. But I think that experience has propelled me to the position that I'm in today and the fact that I've been through a fire, I've been through a gas leak and a line where it's a replaced an entire line, I've had to replace the entire sewer line from the building out to the street, I've been through multiple plumbing leaks, I've been through roofs coming up, I've been through incidences with the police being involved, I've been through a whole new rebuild of an apartment and a whole host of other things- depleting occupancy to 60% and then building it up to hopefully over 90, in less than a year is another thing I'm going to be really proud about and I'm just proud of the people that I work with. I'm really proud of the fact that we take a team approach, we're never pointing fingers and I also like to think of it if I had this same opportunity to mastermind with these same people, how excited I would be. So just because I'm the one who's actually living in the moment of what we're talking about in the quote-unquote mastermind, I should just think about it from a different perspective. Think about it as I'm having such a great opportunity to learn from the best people in the business and people who are really supportive. I think that opportunity is something I will never forget for the rest of my life, that I've had this amazing opportunity to connect with people and to learn from people and to help other people. It's just been something that I'm really excited about and the other thing I'm excited about is something that I do on all of my properties is I really connect with the community. I'm not into changing a property; I'm into changing a community. That is my goal on every single property that I'm a part of is to have an impact on the overall community, to whether it's by partnering with local nonprofits or school systems or helping provide food or gifts to children at holidays really it's important to me that you can be successful at business a lot of different ways, but to be successful and help someone's life is much more rewarding. So I really get a lot of joy out of creating change in a community, along with helping my investors either build or preserve their wealth for whatever reason they were doing it for. So I just really enjoy helping people. James:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are all about helping people. We like to improve the community and really, we have a lot of initiatives that we do in our properties- we give school backpacks when they go back to school, we do many libraries follow communities. So we do a lot of things for our communities. I mean during COVID-19, we have a lot of people who lost their job and don't have food, we usually buy food for them, right? I mean, that's what you and I think the same, I guess, right? I mean, you can make money in many ways, right? But helping people, kind of come with you to the grave, right? So awesome, Ashley. So why don't you tell our audience about how to get hold of you and how to get in touch with you? Ashley: Absolutely. You can follow me on badashinvestor.com on the website or badashinvestor on Instagram, my website badashinvestor.com. It actually links to all of my other companies. So if you're interested in learning about multifamily, I have a link there. My multifamily company is Bar down Investments. So it's very easy. All the traffic just goes through badashinvestor.com. James: Oh, that's a nice catchy name. Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show.  Ashley: Thank you so much for having me.  James: Absolutely. Thank you. Bye.

What's the best way to develop a content strategy that reflects the reality of today's buyer journey? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Ashley Faus, who is the Content Strategy Lead for Software Teams at Atlassian, shares why she thinks a playground provides a better analogy than a funnel for marketers looking to develop their content strategy, and how to use the concept of a content playground to provide your customers and prospects with a better buying experience. Highlights from my conversation with Ashley include: Many marketers use the concepts of the linear funnel and the looping decision journey to develop their content strategies, but Ashley says that those don't reflect the reality of how people buy. Much like in a playground, where there isn't a singular goal (get to the top of the jungle gym!), your prospects aren't always ready to buy and may have other interests. For this reason, a playground offers a better analogy. Rather than forcing prospects to follow a specific journey that we as marketers have determined is ideal, Ashley recommends focusing on creating strong content depth that allows your prospects to follow their own journey, wherever it takes them. For smaller teams that are just getting started, Ashley recommends identifying your "hedgehog principle" - that one thing you do better than everyone else - and creating a very in-depth piece of content on that. Then, you can use that content to repurpose into a variety of assets that can be used on social media, for your trade shows, in the sales process, etc. The key is to find a topic that is substantive enough to support the development of this amount of content.  In terms of how this content gets presented on your website, Ashley recommends ungating it, and then being very explicit with your CTAs so that your website visitors know exactly what they will get if they click a button.  She also suggests adding a related content module on your site to encourage visitors to browse through your content. The best way to begin measuring the impact of your strategy is to use simple tools like Google Analytics in combination with UTMs. As you grow, you can use more sophisticated marketing automation software like HubSpot or Marketo. Resources from this episode: Visit the Atlassian website Connect with Ashley on LinkedIn Follow Ashley on Twitter Check out Atlassian's Team Playbook and Agile Microsite Listen to the podcast to learn why envisioning your buyer's journey -- and their interactions with your content -- as a playground is a more effective way to approach the development of a content strategy. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week my guest is Ashley FOSS, who is the content strategy lead for software teams at Atlassian. Welcome Ashley. Ashley Faus (Guest): Nice to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to have you here. Ashley and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: And, and for those who are listening, you can't see it. But Ashley has an awesome virtual Zoom background of the golden gate bridge. That's one of my favorite things about the pandemic is that it is revealing people's personalities through the Zoom backgrounds that they choose.  Ashley: It's been interesting. I actually think didn't have the latest version of Zoom. I got scared that if I upgraded and something went wrong, I wouldn't have access to it. So for a long time I was the lame person that didn't have a background and it was just my kitchen the whole time. So yes, I finally upgraded. Tell any of the listeners that are hesitant, you can upgrade. And it's not going to ruin your computer. And you, too, can have a nice virtual backgrounds. Kathleen: Oh yeah. For our all hands meetings at my office. We've been having so much fun with just seeing the backgrounds that people come to these meetings with. It's, it's awesome. It reveals so much about their personalities. About Ashley and Atlassian Kathleen: But so we have so much to talk about. And the first thing I want to talk about is really have you explain to my listeners what Atlassian is, and then also your background and what led you to your current role as Content Strategy Lead. Ashley: Sure. So Atlassian is a collaboration software maker. A lot of people are very familiar with JIRA, Confluence, Trello, Bitbucket, Status Page. We have a number of different products that people use all the time. JIRA especially is a staple for software teams. So I actually started at Atlassian two and a half years ago and I moved among a couple of different teams. My background is primarily marketing, but I actually started on the corporate communications team, moved over to editorial, doing a mix of content strategy, social media, thought leadership for the corporate side, and then just recently made the move over onto software teams. One thing that's kind of interesting and great is having that diverse background has given me that ability to move across different areas and go where my skills can be most useful. So I'm excited to dive in. I'm fairly new to the role, so it's been an interesting transition to try to onboard from home and then also start to get up to speed both from a content standpoint and a strategy standpoint, and then also from a tactical standpoint of where are all the different boards, where's the JIRA tickets? Like what's the process, what are the meetings? So, um, it's been fun. It's been fun. Kathleen: I will definitely say as far as Atlassian is concerned, I've been a user of so many of the company's products. I've used Confluence and JIRA. I'm currently using Trello. I know our dev team uses a number of products as well. It's a great company and a great suite of products, especially for anybody who's practicing agile, which I have done a few times. And so that was another reason I was excited to talk to you. But one of the things I think is really interesting is, you know, you mentioned you're relatively new in the role and we were just talking before we came on and you were explaining how your fiscal year, it's going to change over pretty soon. And so not only are you relatively new in the role, but you're being thrust into the situation of having to plan and strategize for a whole new year in the middle of the pandemic, no less all of these things happening at once. Your current focus is on content and I was really fascinated by how you think about content and content strategy planning and this concept of the content playground. So could you talk a little bit about that and what do you mean when you say a content playground?  What is a content playground? Ashley: I started thinking about it because I needed a new metaphor. Everybody that I talked to was talking about primarily the linear funnel. And you know, you've got your three phases with your editorial calendar and you say, "I need three content, three pieces of content per phase. I'm going to do one per month. Cool. Now I have nine months of content strategy, if my math works out". Most of your listeners are probably sitting there going, "That's not how you do content strategy. You can't just say one piece of content per phase and then call it". Kathleen: Wouldn't it be nice if you could though?  Ashley: You bought a calendar, write three articles and you're done. Then, you know, I know a lot of people have moved on to the looping decision journey where you basically add a fourth phase in there. And you're kind of almost recycling these people, but now there's a cross sell or upsell, but somehow you're dumping them back into that awareness phase from the linear funnel. If you look at the Google results for both the linear funnel and the looping decision funnel, it's kind of terrifying. It's very confusing. It basically just shows that we all agree that humans don't work this way. Nobody just goes politely down our little funnel. The 10-3-1 conversion was kind of the standard for a long time. You get 10 people in awareness. A certain amount of drops. So you get three into consideration to be able to get one to that kind of purchase decision. I was really wrestling with this because I was like, how do you create content in a way that allows people to do what they actually do, which is enter and exit and go sideways and all of that? So I had originally come up with this idea of a jungle gym. But there's two problems with that -- mainly that there's only one objective. It's either to get to the top or, if you're my three year old nephew, it's to go across without touching the lava below that. It's still me as a marketer forcing you into what I want you to do and it's taking all these touch points and saying, what's the fewest number of touch points that I can use to get you to a purchase? And yes, ultimately we need to sell products. Ultimately we have to make money as businesses, but it feels bad to everybody to just constantly be like, are you just trying to sell me something? Like what's the catch? I don't really trust you because I know you're trying to sell me. So if you look at an actual playground though, what's the point of the playground? Is the person who's sitting on the bench just enjoying the sunshine? Are they enjoying the playground the wrong way? No, actually perfectly acceptable. Sit on the bench. Again, you know, thinking about what the right way is to play on the playground for the adults and the playground designers, going down the slide is the right way. Three year old nephew, every time wants to go up the slide. If you translate that to content strategy, I recently had an example of this where in the traditional funnel, pricing is considered a very bottom of funnel action. If I'm asking you about price, man, I'm ready to buy. Well, in my case, I needed to go ask for budget before I could even do the RFP and I had no idea what that budget should be for. It was going to be a SaaS product. So understanding, you know, the subscription, SLA, the licensing tiers, all of that. And so I started reaching out to some vendors in the space asking them for just ballpark pricing so I could go get budget. And so many of them were like, well, allow me to send you a white paper about why this matters a lot and you know, Oh, you need to do a demo. And I'm like, Nope, I don't want to waste my time going through your traditional funnel when I don't even know if I have a budget yet. Kathleen: I have to just interject there and say amen because this has been a frustration of mine for so long. I had this recently with a marketing software product. It was exactly what you're talking about. It was last November and I was working on my budget and I knew that I was not going to purchase this product until halfway through 2020. And that was even before all this craziness with the pandemic hit. But I needed a placeholder number for it in my budget. So there's no chance I was going to engage in, like multi meetings and demos and hours long calls with people to pitch me what I know I'm not ready to buy yet. I just needed a price. There's nothing more frustrating than companies that make it that hard and it wasn't a one time thing. I just found myself doing this yesterday. Somebody started talking about email signature software and they mentioned the name of a new company, and I literally Googled the company name and pricing because I was like, I don't even want to waste my time looking at everything else and getting excited about it if I can't afford it. Ashley: Yeah, well, and it's interesting too because once I got the budget approved, I was already completely sold that this problem needed to be solved. I just needed to get management on board that yes, we are committed to solving this problem. So then I actually got into the sales process and you know, I started kind of at the top of that and I just said, look, I'm bought in, draw me all the way down to the bottom of the funnel and I want you to just pitch me. Kathleen: Yeah.  Ashley: It blew the sales people's minds. And they're like, well, let me just go through the deck. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't know how many slides you have, but I'm telling you I'm bought in, I agree with you. This has impact. It solves a problem that I have. I have money, here's what my budget is. I'm BANT qualified. I need you to drop me all the way in and I need you to sell me. A majority of them just froze because they didn't know how to go through there. They only know how to do this step by step. And that's where I think the content playground comes in. Obviously there's a sales component to this too. When you do get people who just want to jump right in, I wouldn't send them to play on the swings. That's what we're doing right now. We're spending all our time on the swings. Let's just do it. Quit trying to force them to go down the slide. It's so funny because people have this idea that there's a specific way that you're supposed to build the relationship and you're supposed to, you know, okay, let's get you through the marketing funnel and get you through MQL and then SQL and then a sale. And it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you meet somebody and they come at you and they're like, no, I'm literally ready to sign on the dotted line, whether it's you or one of your competitors. So why should it be you? Kathleen: Yeah. And not only is that an issue, but it's like I'm going to sign and it's going to be fast. So if you can't meet my fast timeline, just get out of my way. Exactly. That's so interesting. I love that concept. How to use the concept of a content playground to develop your content strategy Kathleen: So give me an example of, conceptually, how does that play out in terms of developing and executing your strategy? Ashley: I've done this at a number of different companies and then we also, you know, do this similar type of thing, whether you see whether you recognize it and call it a content playground or not. When you start to recognize companies that do it because you go through and there's a nice experience to say, Oh, I've kind of landed in this problem space or solution space and now I have the ability to go explore. So we've done that quite a bit in it last year and moving into this content strategy role on software teams, I'm getting exposed to some great ways that they've done it. So for example, we have this agile microsite and then we paired that last year with this agile coach series. This is all work that has been done that I'm excited to come in and kind of optimize and see how can we replicate this across other content types. And it basically says, you know, yes, JIRA helps you run in an agile way, but if you don't have the right practices set up and you don't have that mindset in those processes, a tool is not the thing that's going to fix it for you. And so sure we can sell you JIRA, but if we don't show you the right way to set up the workflows, if we don't help you have acceptable standups, if we don't help you improve your retros, having these things on a board is not going to solve, you know, your agility problems. And so putting that together, if you look at it from a content depth standpoint, instead of organizing around specific phases of the funnel, organizing it around content depth. So from a conceptual standpoint, what the heck is agile? Why does it matter? What kinds of success, you know, have people seen with it, what are the problems from a strategy standpoint, what are the practices and rituals? So that's where you get into some of the standups. That's where you get into some of the retros. And then from a tactic standpoint, how do you actually do those things? And so we have a number of things from the agile coach series, from the agile microsite and also our team playbook, which talks about things like my user manual. So how do you work together as a team? Um, putting together project coasters for kickoffs. And then yes, there's some product demos in there. There's some guides in there, there's some tutorials, there's here workflows that you can set up to do that in JIRA or to do that in Trello. But it's really that full content experienced to say, I just need help figuring out how to run my standups or my retros. And then, cool that I can do that in JIRA as well. So I previously worked at Duarte, if you're familiar with Nancy Duarte's work. Um, she wrote Resonate, which was, you know, a big game changer for a lot of people. They do workshops, they do presentation design for tons of big names and Fortune 500 companies. So we did this in a number of ways. When we launched her slide decks book for example, we put that as a free, ungated version on SlideShare. And then we linked over to this kind of more traditional inbound strategy page where you've got a landing page with a form, you give away a free piece of content, show good faith that this is good quality, and then you've got a form fill out to download some templates that people could use that would then drop people into a drip campaign where we would showcase more templates, we would showcase some use cases that we had built and give them more content to ultimately lead them to say, "Hey, if you want to buy a workshop to learn how to do this at a pro level, here's how you can do that." Getting started with your content playground Kathleen: So if I love the whole concept here, and I love the notion of content depth because I do think that there are so many marketers that almost try to cover too much and they skim the surface on everything and it doesn't work. I think the thing that could be challenging about this is hearing that, like, where do you start and how do you, how do you get there? Because you can't snap your fingers and have a lot of depth in all these topics right away. And also, how do you know what those top level topics are? If you were teaching this to somebody, how would you walk them through that? Ashley: So there's a couple of ways that, uh, we've been able to do it at Atlassian. Obviously we're fortunate we have a large team and a ton of experts that have complimentary skills. So for example, we have done a ton of keyword research to understand both search intent and the specific wording of that. From a market standpoint, agile came in and changed the game, and it turns out that JIRA was actually a really good fit to run agile. So we already kind of were keeping a pulse on the market and we started to see that agile is becoming this very mainstream thing, that our tool and our technology is really useful in helping people run. So let's focus on agile. Okay, where do we focus? And that's where things like SEO and keyword research, that's where focus groups, that's where digging through the feedback that your customers are giving you and asking like, what are the top questions in terms of workflows? How do those map to things like running scrum teams or running Kanban boards? How does that now map to workflows and guides and onboarding tutorials that we would share with somebody who starts with your product or working with Trello products, for example? So I would say I'm doing a listening exercise and there's a number of tools. You could do it on social media as well, particularly for software devs, which is one of our core audiences. They hang out on Hacker News, they hang out on Reddit. And so go look there. That's, that's another core tenant I think as marketers is loving the whole human and not just who are you as a buyer? I only care about you as a buyer or user. How do I get you to engage in the product every day or buy more of the service? Okay, these people have lives. And so if you can figure out what do they love, what are they passionate about outside of the one thing you're trying to sell them, that also gives you an entire new space to explore for thinking about what topics could you engage in. And so, when you think about engineers, efficiency, optimization, clean and concise process is something that's very important to them. Well what are some of the frameworks or what are some of the topics that deal with optimization that could potentially lead you to lead you to something like Six Sigma or manufacturing for example, right? There's a lot of ways that you could think about it if you just know what do engineers generally like? And it's like, they really like efficiency. They like optimization, they like tight, elegant solutions and just jump off from there to see, okay, what are the specific topic areas that would coincide with your product offering? And with the things that they generally care about, what does that mean? Kathleen: And if you don't have an enormous team and you want to take this approach, how do you do it? Because I imagine you'd have a choice of like, okay, I've identified 10 areas that I want to go deep on, you know, and I could either take area number one and fully play it out and develop all the content. Or I could do one article for each of the 10 areas and then go back and do the second article. Like how would you tackle it? Ashley: Yeah. So one of the things that Nancy Duarte actually talks about a ton, from Jim Collins book Good to Great is this concept of the hedgehog principle. And that's if you can do one thing and be the best at it, just do that one thing. So instead of trying to spread yourself too thin across all of those 10 topics, I would be ruthless initially in what is the thing that we actually have the ability to talk about without having to spend a ton of time and energy going and finding that expertise? What's the thing that leads most to the product market fit, or the service market fit, whichever of those that you're selling? And then what's the thing that has depth? This is something that I see a lot, is people start throwing topics on the board and you're like, okay, but how many words can you actually say about that thing? And for the most part, people were like, "Whoa". And it's like you can't even say one sentence about it. How are you going to write a full article? And then that also gets into, it's not just one article, it's okay, how do we also turn that into a video? How do we turn that into an infographic? How do we turn that into a social media post? Because this thing has to live for a lot of time. Nobody has time to keep creating net new content all the time. And so if this piece can't be repurposed or broken apart, it probably doesn't have enough depth to chase. So I would say if you're very first, starting from scratch, to limit it to probably two, maybe three topics that are related to each other and that you know, have depth. And I would say especially if you're dealing with a small team, like you're at a start up and the founder is kind of the only person who could talk about this, I'm definitely limiting that to two topics that you know you have in house expertise and then doing a good job to capture that from a conceptual, strategic and tactical standpoint the first time. And then go with the repurposing strategy. So instead of saying, "Oh my gosh, we have to cover it, a thousand words or a 20 minute video every single time", think about it as, no, nobody wants to read that, nobody's going to scroll through all of that. So let them pick their journey of how deep they want to go. Repurposing your content Kathleen: So can you dig in a little bit more to that repurposing topic because I was interested to hear you discuss all the different ways that the content can manifest, because I think a lot of people might hear this and think it's a bunch of blogs, but it's, it's really not. Ashley: One of my favorite campaigns that was super successful, there was a startup that I worked at that got acquired by Oracle called Palerra. Palerra was a cloud access security broker, which, you know, doesn't matter as much to the majority of the audience if they're not in tech, but, basically they're kind of a complimentary security product to a lot of cloud offerings. We were primarily an enterprise solution. Technology is a really heavy topic. And so what we did, when I came in, there was this raw word doc of just random customer interviews, and problems that they had faced. And so for example, we all know on a personal level we should update our passwords regularly. A lot of companies have that installed where it's like 72 days time to change your password. So at an enterprise security level, there's a similar concept for your keys to your different cloud services. And so we had a scenario where there was a customer that hadn't rotated their keys in like two years. It blew our minds. So our product actually found that. So we actually were talking about cautionary tales and focusing specifically on AWS because that cloud offering is quite ubiquitous among our customers and these are a lot of common pitfalls that our products can help solve. So we called it a cautionary tale. We turned it into an ebook first that then became the basis for our booth graphics at AWS Reinvent. And then we had a booth giveaway. We put an Amazon Tap in a clear box and then we had a bowl of keys sitting next to it and they looked identical. And so you drew a key and if it unlocked the box, you won the Tap. And so that was able to lead us into, "Have you rotated your keys? How are you doing password management?" But not just those basic tactical issues, but also like how do you know there's even a working key in the bowl? How do you know that Kathleen is supposed to have the key and not Ashley? What happens to the keys after the show? So let's say Kathleen and Ashley both leave and the bowls just sitting there. Now what happens to the keys? Right? And our product can help with that. And from a security standpoint, those are a lot of blind spots that at the time people were missing. And then the nice thing about that being at a security conference, people were very skeptical that there were any working keys in the bowl. Right? There's no keys. Yeah. So every time someone won, we took a picture and then we put it on the company Twitter feed. And then if they had a Twitter handle, we tagged them and ask them to retweet. And so there were people, and I mean we had people, well, again, they're very methodical about this. They're like, okay, it looks like roughly once an hour people are winning. So the last time somebody won, they just won. Okay, well I'm going to come back and try again later. Kathleen: Like people play slots.  Ashley: Yeah. It's like slots. But that was a great way. And then we were also able to share that ebook on Twitter as well to say, "Hey, if you're curious why we're taking pictures of the food, you can read this ebook." And then we were able to send that as well with some deeper case studies to anybody that we had scanned at the booth. So it was a really nice integrated online, offline and social media experience. That's another one of my pet peeves is people who are just like, come to booth 123. I'm not at the conference so you're just going to spam me for three days. So making sure that you have content that tells a story to your social media audience, whether they're attending the conference or not. Kathleen: That's great. That's a really good point about the shows too. Because yeah, you do so much marketing. And if somebody is not going, it's just annoying. How to share your content on your website Kathleen: So if you've created all this content, what does that look like on the website from an experience standpoint? Are there content hubs? Is it a resource center? How do you organize this all for presentation to your audience? Ashley: I think it really depends on the audience. I think HubSpot, obviously from the hub and spoke model that they've done, is amazing so that you can kind of see, you can dive in deep per topic, you could dive in deep from an integrative marketing standpoint, you can dive in deep from a tech stack standpoint and obviously they have solutions for that. So the way that they've organized it is actually really great because it allows people to kind of slice and dice how they want. One of the things that we've done that I think is really great and it lasts and is, for example, on the work-life blog, which is like a corporate level, so deals with things like teamwork, practices, leadership, et cetera. We've got a related articles function. And so when you get to the bottom of the article, yes, there's a CTA. If you want to sign up for the newsletter, you want to um, go talk in the community. Or in some cases where we're doing product focused content, it's go to the product tour or something like that. But then at the bottom there's related content. And so we have a mix of collections, a mix of tags, and then those get fed into the related content. And so there's always a next step for people to take. I think that's the biggest thing, whether you organize it as a hub, whether you organize it as a resource center that's done by topic filtering or content tagging, that ability for somebody to always take the next step and to, to only force that next step to be a buying action if they're in a head space for buying action. So if you're on a product tour, the request a demo or the sign up for free, or the do an evaluation for seven days or 30 days, whatever it is, that makes perfect sense. But if you've just read an article about productivity, it's a really hard landing to talk about five tips to manage your time and then all of a sudden be dropped into, you know, by the way, you need to buy Trello. It's like, why would I do that? So making sure that there's always a next logical action that either takes them deeper toward a purchase or deeper tool, words and practices that will help them or allow them to say, I don't know how I landed here. How do I get back to the first thing that I clicked so that I can get back on the path where I think I should be? Kathleen: Yeah. How do you execute that? Because you just gave the example of somebody who's just poking around and then they're all of a sudden getting pushed to buy. You know, being that it's a playground and people can go in any number of directions, how do you craft those next steps so that they make sense? Ashley: I think the biggest thing is, there's obviously an ideal customer journey and that does include some post-sale engagement. That could be things like documentation. It could be a support community. But really, I mean even from like, um, practically accessibility, labeling your buttons with what it is you're doing. Are you downloading this? Are you reading this? Are you clicking to do an evaluation? Are you starting a trial for free? What is that? And then that way people are very clear whenever they get down there, they know what they're clicking on. I know I've had this experience a few times where it's like, see more. And I'm like, yes, I wish to do that. And it automatically takes me into this form where it's like put in a credit card. And I'm like, you didn't tell me that's what I was doing. That's not, I didn't agree to that. So having really clear navs and in the resource center, not having buy CTAs all over the resources. For example, Intercom does a great job with this. They're a messaging, communication growth platform. You can go over to their journal section or their resource center and it's all thought leadership. It's all very high level and they state at the top, "This is free content. It's educational, no sales." And so, you know, when you're that part of the website, you're not going to get sold to and there's a nice handy button at the top. It's like go back to home. And that's where, you know, you could either be directed down an education path or sales path and you can kind of choose. So I think just being really explicit. We're past the point of I'm going to trick you into sales. It might've been on LinkedIn. I saw a discussion that maybe you and somebody else were having about, "Oh, I got a thousand leads from this form. And the question is, are they qualified?" Jay Acunzo actually has a whole rant about this. Stop gating your best content and then pretending whoever fills out that form is a lead sales lead. That's not what they agreed to. And so don't try and trick your audience. If they want to buy, they'll let you know. If they want to be educated and they want to form a relationship with you, they'll do that. And so giving them a clear path to let them either do sales or build a relationship makes them feel empowered. It gives everybody good feelings and it doesn't clutter up your sales process with people that are junk, that are not qualified or that are not actually interested in buying. Kathleen: So true. I find it's counterintuitive because, I started a few years ago ungating as much content as I possibly could and just putting it on the page and then adding like a little field just for email saying, "Want to get the PDF? Put your email in." And that was it.  What was fascinating to me is that not only did conversion rates not go down, in many cases, they went up. It's really psychology if you think about it. There's so much crappy gated content out there and the problem with gating it, first of all, is people are very jaded and a lot of them will think, I'm not giving up my email only to find out that this is junk. And so then they don't convert at all. Whereas, if you give the content away and then give them the option of downloading, you're basically allowing them to try before they buy. You're proving that what you're giving them is really good and if they do think it's really good, they are going to convert because they're like, "Well, it's no skin off my back. This is great content. I don't mind giving up my email address for it." And so the people that wind up converting on the ungated content are more qualified because they've self qualified. The other thing I've found, it goes back to your thing about being explicit, is especially when you don't have things gated, like on the page before or in the marketing you're doing for it, just coming right out and saying, "No need to fill out a form to get it." Ashley: Yeah. Kathleen: You don't have to give us your email address. People are so naturally almost defensive or they're like, Oh, Nope, Nope, Nope. They're going to ask for something. And if you can just come out and say, I'm not going to ask you for anything, that goes a long way. Ashley: Well, and I think what's interesting in this, in this thought about building relationships and giving that content away, a great example, there's a company that I worked with, they were an agency for us. We were a startup. We were using, you know, a lot of agencies and freelancers and they host these dinners and it's basically, you know, just get five, six, seven people together, have dinner, nerd out about marketing topics. And yes, we all know full well some of us are current customers of this company. Some people are prospects of the company. But I don't have budget or need to work with them anymore. But every single time I meet somebody that says that they have the need that this company services, I refer them and I refer probably three or four clients to them. I would continue to do that and we have a great relationship. They still invite me to the dinners. I sent one of my colleagues to a dinner to basically make a connection to say this might be relevant for you to meet some people that we might want to put spokespeople on panels with in the future. And so that willingness to connect with each other. I'm loyal to that company even though I have no budget and no need to buy from them right now. But I'm referring, I'm still giving them revenue because again, it's, it's fine for, for me, when I meet somebody at a conference and they're like, how would you do this? I'm like, actually this is a great company. Would you like an intro? And so a buying action may not necessarily be the person who downloaded the content buys. It may be, I mean, again, I talk about Intercom. I love the content that IDEO puts out. Again, I have no need to buy their services at this point, but I tell everybody, go look at HubSpot's content or go look at Intercom's content. And so there's no way for them to measure that. I'm just another random name on their list that hasn't converted, but I'm a brand champion for them and they don't even know it, you know? Measuring the ROI of your content playground Kathleen: That's awesome. So speaking of measuring, you get this all set up. You deploy it. How do you track and measure whether it's working, how it's working, et cetera? Ashley: So I've done this in a number of different ways depending on the company and the strategy and the bandwidth and all of that kind of stuff. If you're just starting out in your tiny little team, and you don't have the ability to do, you know, Tableau or Databricks or kind of all of these fancy data pipelines, at minimum just start out with your Google tracking. Google has free stuff that you can put on. Use your UTM codes to understand if these things are getting tracked from a social media standpoint, what's the referrals, if you are using any pages with forms from any of the marketing automation providers. Again, I'm pretty partial to HubSpot just because I think they do amazing content. The platform is great. We've used Marketo in the past, and other companies. So any of those are great to really understand what are the trends. I think that's the biggest thing. Making sure that you're looking at a correct trend level. I've worked a lot on the social media side and people get freaked out per post. "Oh my gosh, we did 10 posts last week and this one did, you know, half a percent better than this one." And it's like, let's zoom out and look monthly. How are things trending? Let's do some testing to see if we post more. Does our engagement rate go down if we, um, the other big thing is optimizing the CTA is for what you want to happen. So it's going to be really impossible for you to get somebody to like, comment, retweet, follow, and click through all in the same posts. Like there's not enough words for that post. And so making sure that each CTA belongs where it should be. So if you're asking for a poll on Twitter or Facebook, that's the goal. Responses in feed is the goal versus explicitly asking someone to click through. Make that explicit and you need to make sure that you're putting in some sort of hook or benefit. I see this a lot with people who are just starting in social media, for example, that they just give the title of the article or they just say, read these five tips. Well, what are they? On the opposite extreme, they give it away and they say, here's the five tips. And then they laid them out. And I'm like, well, now why do I need to read the article? You already gave me the tips. Give me the first tip that you think is the most interesting and then say, click through to read the next four tips. Kathleen: Right? Ashley: So, from a measurement standpoint, being very clear on a per post basis about what your goals are, if you're looking at click through rate or engagement rates and what type of engagement. So that's kind of more from a social media standpoint. If you're doing YouTube, if the answer is subscribe to the channel, if the answer is watch the next video, if the answer is go visit the page, those are very different actions. And so making sure you're optimizing those. And then obviously looking at things like organic traffic is always great. Looking at whether you have emails or product tours. From an email standpoint, looking at the open rates and the click to open ratio. So a lot of people look at the CTR, but that's a little bit out of whack. If there's a thousand people that opened it, but you sent it to 5,000, it's not very fair to say what's the CTR on the 5,000? Use it on the thousand. In some cases we've gotten really granular to look at which pieces of content get the most clicks. And so that helps us to understand, it's great that you want to put 10 pieces of content in the newsletter, but if only the first five ever get clicked, you need to find something else to do because you're not amplifying those things. Kathleen: How do you get people down further? Ashley: Yeah, exactly. What kinds of results can you expect? Kathleen: So any examples of like, what kinds of results does taking this approach yield in terms of pipeline or engagement or revenue or any of the above? Ashley: Yeah. From a scale standpoint, it depends. It's not very fair to say like, Oh, you'll get a thousand leads. It's like, okay, well if your revenue goal is 10,000, that's a struggle. Or if you're a billion dollar company, a thousand leads doesn't do you any good, right? So, we've done content pairing for example, where we've done a mix of gated content and ungated content. When we did that at Duarte, the ungated piece has over 300,000 views. Now it's been up for a couple of years, but it's got over 300,000 views. We were getting roughly 10 to 15% download rates of people going and getting that content. And so that's something where you're still getting the benefit of the people looking at it for free and ungated, but then you're starting to see higher engagement, you know, 10, 15% on that. Whenever I've done newsletter sends that have been more thought leadership focused with very light touch sales, we've been able to see 20, 30% open rates, 15 to 25% CTOR rates. Again, because we're serving that content that they've requested, not trying to shoehorn in sales. Whenever we've done sales, as a piece of content, like, "Hey, get a trial" or "Use this code" or "Refer" or "Here's an eCourse and then we'll give you one module for free because you've signed up for this newsletter" or something like that, those do have a much higher conversion rate for whatever the next buying action is. Again, it depends on the scale. So like the Palerra one at the time, you know, that ebook and we were a tiny little company. I mean we only had, I think when we got acquired, we had maybe 60 employees total. So very small company, 10 by 20 booth at AWS Reinvent, which is a massive conference. And we got, you know, almost 2000 views on that small ungated ebook. And then we got substantially higher open rates, and then our lead scans at that booth, I mean it was ridiculous. I want to say we scanned like 500 people and at most shows we were only scanning probably a hundred to 112 and so it was huge because it all tied in. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: That's awesome. Well shifting gears because we're gonna run out of time. I have two questions that I like to ask all my guests and I'm really curious to hear your answers because you've worked with some really interesting companies who are very good at this. Is there a particular company or individual that you think is really killing it with inbound marketing right now? Ashley: So I will do the shameless plug for Atlassian, A, because I work there so of course I think we're doing a good job. But truly, I think one of the biggest examples of this, we have our team playbook and this is something again where we connected our work futurist Don Price, has done a number of different keynotes around the world and always promotes the team playbook and that has led to this health monitor -- the team health check, understanding where your blockers are. That led to a large engagement with ANZ bank, which is a huge bank in Australia and they have now done a case study with us. They're huge champions that come for our conferences and speak about how this one tiny little interaction with this health monitor has led to this entire agile transformation across their business. It's a mix of the tools, the people, the practices, it all came together perfectly. So, yes, that had a revenue result for us, but it started with that ungated content at a conceptual level about how do you do your team work better and that's what Atlassian really tries to empower. I mentioned Intercom as well. They have a ton of great content. They've got sales manuals, they got marketing manuals that talk about a variety of different ways to think about content marketing, sales, the interaction between sales and marketing. Highly recommend their content for both sales and marketing practitioners. And then, IDEO, just like if you want to elevate your creativity and you want to kind of think outside of a traditional business or products. I work in tech, so of course I'm in this little bubble that everything is SaaS and everything is ARR. IDEO has none of that. And so every time I go to IDEO and just like, this is fascinating, how does the world work when you're not in your little bubble? And so I would say, no matter what bubble you're in, IDEO will help you get out of it. That would be three that are a mix of marketing focused, tech and then a design consultancy that's just completely out of my wheel house.  Kathleen: I can't wait to check some of those out -- particularly IDEO. It sounds really interesting. Well, second question is, the biggest pain point I was here from marketers is that digital is changing so quickly and they feel like it's drinking from a fire hose to try and keep up with everything and stay educated and on the cutting edge. So how do you personally do that? Ashley: Yeah, so from a broader view, kind of outside of marketing or just business chops, which I think is really important, it's how do we fit in and especially as you move up in your career and you become COO or something like that, understanding that business acumen is really key. I love MIT Sloan review for that content and they've been killing it lately. Every single thing that's come out from them over the last probably six or seven months, I'm like, "Yes, one hundred percent fascinating". So I love MIT Sloan from a business standpoint. There's a couple of marketers that I think are a little bit contrarian and I joked about going on rants about things and I'm like, "Yes, ranting. I love it." Katie Martell is somebody that I've been loving her content lately. Jay Acunzo I think is great. He's really honing in on podcasting and show running over the last year or so. But just in general, his thoughts on content marketing and strategy are great. I love Scott Berkun. He is primarily a designer, and more on that design thinking. He has a new book out that I need to get because it looks amazing. It's like How Design Makes the World, I think is what it's called. And it's looking at how all of these interactions and everyday things influence our path, our actions, et cetera. So Scott Berkun is great. And then I would say just like a book that I always come back to is this book called The Medici Effect by Frans Johansson. It's primarily about intersectional thinking and divergent thinking. And so yes, there's an element of understanding the tactical nitty gritty from a digital standpoint. I think there's a number of, you know, Marketing Profs, CMI, HubSpot, all of those do a really great job of that. But how do you think about change? How do you think about a problem space? How do you think about a solution space? The Medici Effect is just every, it's like I come back to it kind of annually. It's like, okay, somewhere in there I'm missing something. I should probably just reread the The Medici Effect. In fact, I should probably just to think about the concepts and The Medici Effect to jolt myself out of being so focused on, okay, what does this button on Twitter do or what does this ads do? Like are we doing AB testing? We're doing multivariate testing, what's our competence interval, whatever. We're pulling those things down. Like I don't know what the best practice is. It's like I'm clearly thinking about it in the wrong way. If I'm so twitchy about such a small detail, you get lost in the weeds pretty easily. Kathleen: Those sound like some really good resources. I will put links to all of them in the show notes. How to connect with Ashley Kathleen: If somebody is listening and they want to connect with you online or follow you or learn more about this topic, what's the best way for them to do that? Ashley: I would love to connect on LinkedIn. I'm Ashley Faus. For the most part, I think I'm the first search result for that. And you can also follow me on Twitter also @AshleyFaus. Kathleen: Great. I will put Ashley's links to her social accounts in the show notes. So head there if you want to find them. You know what to do next... Kathleen: And if you are listening and you liked what you heard today or you learned something new, and how could you not because Ashley shared so many good ideas, head to Apple podcasts and please leave the podcast a five star review. That helps us get found by more people. And if you know somebody who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks so much for joining me this week, Ashley. Ashley: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's always fun to nerd out about marketing. Kathleen: Yes!

TRANSCRIPT:Ashley: My name is Ashley Hart and our family did the growing Christmas tree in Goshen project.Katie: Alright so you worked on getting to know your neighbors last year through this project? And talk me through that year, what did it look like, what did it take for you guys to put all that together?Ashley: Well it started off with me getting really excited about creating something new. So I came up with a list to my mentor of all the fun ideas I had. Then evaluating how those ideas matched with the community that we lived in and what would be a gift to them and something that we could make memories together with them. So we kind of spent time connecting with neighbors in a different way than we had before. So we might go on a walk and stop over and say good evening to our neighbor or call them over and invite them over for dessert or whatever. And that kind of got the relationship frequency enough that we were able to have more conversations.Katie: Yeah, and were you bringing the idea of this Christmas tree project to them right away or how did you start on that path to get to that project idea?Ashley: So I think one of the things that I realized for myself and took that to the way I was connecting with our neighbors was that I in my own life wasn't prepared for a big ask and so I didn't want to throw a big ask at someone else. Really I was still putting feelers out to see if the idea that we had could even happen. So our neighbor happened to be a landscaper, so I didn't even know if he would plant Christmas trees in December or not, or if that was like not going to work. If the trees were going to die or the ground would be too frozen or whatever.Katie: Because you guys did not have Christmas trees on your property when you started this?Ashley: Correct.Katie: But you had how many acres?Ashley: Eleven acres.Katie: Eleven acres and what are you going to do with it, how are you going to make that an asset to the community?Ashley: Right, and we had always kind of had a vision even on our wedding day we invited people to our property and invited people to spend time there. We wanted it to be a hospitable place but I don't think we had the tools and the permission that we were given to make it kind of an official thing to start inviting people and doing something unique for the community.Katie: So it took some permission seeking?Ashley: I think so, which is weird, but yeah. I think someone saying here's some support and here's some encouragement and start dreaming. And I was desperate for the idea to be dreaming about something other than being concerned about what's going on in our day to day experience.Katie: Right what was your main concern at that point, what were you worrying about?Ashley: I think I was really focused on ensuring that our daughter would be prepared to engage in her community and the way that I thought I was going about that was through therapy and appointments and things like that because that required so much energy I just didn't think I had anymore energy to start something new. Katie: So you were trying to pave the way for your daughter to be part of the community some day, but you weren't really sure about how to go about it. And meanwhile you had other day to day appointments and things that you had to be doing that were taking up time, energy and effort and that that permission that you go to do something off the scope of the therapy list.Ashley: Oh yeah it was like it was such a gift. Yeah it was just you know you get stuck in the grind of doing what's best and the idea to imagine creating something that intrinsically you already know what is good for you, and what is good for your family and what is good for the community. And just someone saying ‘Go for it' it's really.. I've talked about that you're getting to lift your eyes off a problem or what is perceived as a problem and getting to lift your eyes to bringing beauty into your world and your community.Katie: Yes, so before you started this, was it a year long project, about?Ashley: Yeah.Katie: Ten months, year long project, before you started the year long project to plant Christmas trees in your yard and invite your neighbors to, can you explain actually a little bit more about what that Christmas tree project was in the end?Ashley: Yeah, so the goal was, we started the project in July, and because of the event, our event was in December. So we had to kind of move quickly once we decided what we were doing but the idea was to invite families in the community, so because it's a rural community that's a wide area, but invite community members to come and to plant a CHristmas tree on our land. And we wanted it to be a healing experience to everyone who came so we talked through what's healing for community and individuals. So we brought the five senses into the experience. So we had art, lighting, lumineers, paths through the fields and Christmas music anda baker came and baked Christmas cookies that's from Goshen and hot cocoa and a bonfire. So we tried to make it as memory making as we could by sealing in those five senses and then families are invited to come back each year and they can either take their Christmas tree if it's tall enough for them or they can just check on it and take a picture with their family. So that's been really fun to see families bewildered in the generosity. Families would call us and say, “ok so what are the rules around this?” or like ‘well how do we sign, and ensure that this is ours.” And so they've just been really surprised by the generosity.Katie: They also are seeking permission.Ashley: Yeah.Katie: To just show up and have a Christmas tree party?Ashley: Right. Right.Katie: Yeah it kind of shows that we've lost a little bit of our muscle for community building. We don't really know what to do in the face of something as ordinary and simply beautiful as this, it's kind of like there's a catch. Where's the marketing here?Ashley: Right, exactly and we have a friend here at Starfire mention that really we're just returning to our roots as rural people. Who used to sit on one another's porches and play music and eat together, so we talked about that that evening that we want more of that. And we really got a sense from our neighbors that they did too. So people would come by and talk to me about it like, “Oh I have this idea or I have that idea.” So we're hoping that fosters more and more of that. Katie: Did many people know your family who came to the event? How did you make connections and make that neighborliness happen?Ashley: So it was funny because several days before the event we had no one signed up for the event.Katie: Seven days before?Ashley: Several, several so like three or four days before. We had like signs up, we had advertised.Katie: So really quickly describe your neighborhood real quick because when you say you have signs and things up it's at like the one library and maybe like…Ashley: One coffee shop.Katie: Yeah.Ashley: There's one coffee shop, there's like two fast food restaurants or three and two gas stations and a library. Otherwise it's a very rural community. So we had posted things on Facebook, on the Goshen Facebook community page but then we had also put it in a coffee shop. So we really had no idea how many trees we needed so we picked thirty, I'm not sure why but it was crazy because somebody called like three or four days before and was like I know it's really late but is there anyway our family could sign up? And I was like yeah we've got some room.Katie: You hang up and were like woo-hoo!Ashley: Yes totally, like we got one and her friend wanted to sign up too so that made two families and what we didn't know which I think is really important is having people invested in the process, so our neighbor Dan brough him and everyone he knew to that event. He was excited about it because he had done so much in giving advice and shopping around for trees and going to get thte trees, that he was invested enough to want it to be a good event and want his people to come and experience it.Katie: And is this the landscaper you had mentioned? So you had a neighbor, I mean you have eleven acres how many acres are around you?Ashley: We have one to our right and one to our left then we have one across the street, so yeah. Not a lot.Katie: So you have three neighbors in the vicinity of you and neighbor Dan was one of them. What a gem.Ashley: I know he is a gem.Katie: How did you meet him? Did you already know him?Ashley: Yeah, he has been friends with my husband's parents who live right next door also. So he's been a friend of their families for a while and you know in rural communities if there's something wrong everyone shows up. But otherwise you kind of naturally keep to yourself and sometimes you might stop over and say hi but this just was really nice because we got to spend more time together and got to use one another's gifts in a way that brought people together so that was great.Katie: Yeah. So this was not the first time that you've been part of a community in an intentional way. This experience that you had in your neighborhood with your family was sort of precluded by your own youth living in intentional community being part of living with a family, so you've tried community in various forms?Ashley: Yeah it's always been important to me.Katie: Can you talk more about that?Ashley: I think I've always experienced more joy when I'm doing life with other people and yet when you're doing life with more people it can be complicated too. So that's just being with other people. Katie: That's a good thing to know going into it.Ashley: Yeah I think so.Katie: You had seen some of the pitfalls of it but you had also lived some of the joys of it and knew I want this for my family now too?Ashley: Right and you know even having your own family that's having a small community. So yeah I've experienced it in multiple different settings and really just treasured the gift of letting people be beyond the veils of their front doors and back doors and getting to spend real life with one another.Katie: Yeah so you've sought it out in that way. You've been seeking it. How were those experiences that you've had in the past in the intentional community that you have been different from the one that you experienced when you reached out to your neighbors and kind of had this project type experience where you're connecting over a shared idea, a creation versus like all living together in the same house?Ashley: Yeah, well it's nice because you have a goal and it's accomplishable and you're kind of bringing everyone in so that's different I would say. Then just all doing life together. You have an event and then it's done.Katie: Yeah, you've all achieved something together and like you said earlier and it's a way for everyone to use their specific gifts like you had the baker that came, neighbor Dan brought the trees, there were other people who probably set up the decorates and had ideas around where to plant the trees. Even the people who showed up that day, their gifts were their presence and getting enthusiastic about what's going on. And everybody can kind of have a role there and doing something that's kind of out of the ordinary.Ashley: Very out of the ordinary for Goshen. Yeah we had one experience where it was like an art installation where we zig-zagged rope through the trees and everyone brought a little lantern out, different sizes of light lite lanterns so by the end they had created this beautiful art piece and we talked about you've all brought your gifts here tonight, just being together and this is just a display of what could be as we spend time together and do life together.Katie: Yeah I love that imagery. So we're going to segue. To the time you decided to move away from this place. The moment you made the decision after all of this goodness had been created to say you know what we're going to try a new neighborhood. Take me to some of the decision making and what was that like? Was it difficult? Where you anxious about leaving? Did you feel like what if we regret this because we've made all these connections. What was your motive there?Ashley: Sure, yeah well I think one important thing to talk about as far as the project goes is we were in the midst of deciding while we were doing the project. So I asked my mentor should we do it in Goshen? Should we do it where we think we're going to go? And we kind of ended up deciding to do it now and do it where you are and I think there's a lot of lessons in that.We don't have to wait until we think everything is right to start building community and to start creating spaces of belonging for our neighbors and memory making moments for each other those are always good and always can be healing, so I'm glad we didn't wait. Katie: And you also have a two year old, three year old?Ashley: Three year old now.Katie: A three year old. So as parents too it's like well I'm going to wait until my kid gets older, things are less hectic. So doing it in the midst of all of it and what's the value in that that you found at the end even when you guys were packing up your bags and deciding to leave?Ashley: Well I think the biggest take away for us was that we built the muscle to like we now have the muscle to build community. And I”m just naturally looking for it all the time going like ‘oh what could we do here?' So we've done a couple of things in our new neighborhood not for any project per say but because we now have the muscle and we want community where we are. Katie: Yeah tell me what were some of the first few things that you did when you moved to the new neighborhood that maybe you didn't do when you moved to your Goshen neighborhood?Ashley: Yeah, so our new neighborhood before we had actually bought the house but we were pretty sure that was where we were headed it was trick-or-treat so we were like ok how often are you invited to every single person's house at the same time. Like this, we can't miss this.Katie: Yeah that's a good point.Ashley: Yeah like never.Katie: Yes please come knock on our door and we'll give you things.Ashley: So we went to that neighborhood that night, just to introduce ourselves and said we are probably going to be living right there and we're eager to connect with you guys.Katie: Wow so even before you put money down on the house, even before you closed on the house?Ashley: Yes, yes.Katie: Wow, ok.Ashley: Yeah, so we were excited about building community there and we really wanted to take what we were learning and not just leave it in Goshen, but bring it along with us for all of us. So that's one thing that we did, that was in late October and then in February we made jars of hot cocoa and put our picture on them and our address and we said we're your new neighbors and our daughter was in a little red wagon and just saying hello and that inspired lots of conversations and people coming to our house and bringing us stuff. So that kind of got the wheels spinning in the neighborhood I think.Katie: Were you writing down names after each one?Ashley: Yes, my husband actually was really intent too which was a fun dynamic to see him to start getting invested in the idea of community building because he didn't grow up building community like I did as much.Katie: And he was the note taker he was the one, yeah?Ashley: Yeah, wanting to know his neighbors.Katie: So I think what you just touched on which is really important is we think sometimes we need to be the ones welcomed in and instead you guys were the welcomers to your new neighborhood to your new neighbors to say hey we're here and we want to know you. So taking the first step doesn't always have to come from the other person.Ashley: Right, and I think that's kind of fun for the neighbors to be like ‘wait she flipped the switch, like what just happened there?' Yeah, and it was totally fun for us so we said we would do it again in a heartbeat because we got to go in people's houses and visit and people came in our house, it was nice. Katie: Yeah when you left your neighborhood behind did you have any lessons that you were taken from what you learned over that year with the Christmas tree project that you were like we're going to do it differently this time. We tried it that way and now let's try it this way. Was there anything that stood out where you're like…Ashley: Lessons learned?Katie: Yeah.Ashley: Yeah, I think the big lesson, my big takeaway from growing Christmas trees in Goshen was with a new event, a new project no one knows what to expect so it's really hard to get people invested unless they're a part of the creation of the idea, and so we only had a couple people that were involved with the creation of the idea. And so that ends up meaning that you're doing a lot of the creation and administration of the event, so my take away in the future is that I want our neighbors there with us like what should we do with our community what would be something that our community needs or wants that would be fun for everybody. So bringing everyone into the decision making piece..Katie: From the beginning?Ashley: From the beginning. Now we're trying to back track and go like maybe we do a Christmas planning in July so we get everybody to come together to start working towards the goal for the event.Katie: Yeah and it's what you said before neighbor Dan was invested from the beginning and he was somebody who brought a lot of people with him, so the people who come it's hard to sometimes invite the whole neighborhood if it's just your family. But the more people who come, the more networks they have and everybody's networks kind of show up too. But also you're saying just the excitement piece and getting it all together, it's not all on you as a family to plan it all and dream it all up and there's more shared ownership.Ashley: Right which means there's more presence at the event too. There's ten families that are excited about it and they're bringing all their gifts and networks there. So that's a big help, so I think that that would be if I was doing that again when we tried to do that but I think we're all just learning as we go and I think we did it by inviting a group of people, we weren't good at explaining this is what we're thinking about we just said come plan with us we're going to do an event and they were like i have other things going on so..Katie: Yeah, sounds like work.Ashley: Yeah, exactly, so eventually they came to the event and they're definitely a part of our community but not bringing people in early to help ideate and create it.Katie: What about just in terms of knowing neighbors and interacting with them differently are their things that you do as part of your lifestyle now that maybe you didn't do you know in your former neighborhood that know you can kind of.. I guess I'm asking that because you can reinvent yourself when you move somewhere, you can be a new person in a way. So there's a benefit in showing up as this new neighbor and being like ok this is the type of neighbor I want to be now, I might not have been that in my neighborhood prior but now I can show up and nobody knows me and I can start new right?Ashley: Yeah I think the big thing that we've done differently is just at the outset let people know that we're interested in being together. So a lot of people I've learned that in suburban neighborhoods like to play and do outdoor life in their backyard with their privacy fence and so we've spent a lot of time in our driveway and in the front yard and going for walks and interacting with people that way so some of it is just relearning how to be in a new environment too. Katie: Yeah I love that so you're spending time in the front yard so that when people get home from work and they pull in their driveway you can be like ‘hey'!Ashley: Right.Katie: Privacy, there's a value of privacy that we have as Americans.Ashley: For sure.Katie: But we aren't necessarily happy in our private lives we'd rather spend it with other people we just don't know what that looks like any more. So do you think that you have a different mindset than you started this with and in what way?Ashley: I definitely, I have a huge different mindset yeah. In so many different ways I mean it's like so many different layers, my mindset during community building I'm still super excited about community building in our new neighborhood and I'm also so grateful that i now see people who are neighbors with their gifts. Like that I think is different than before which is surprising to me because I thought that I saw people that way always but I think you know as we were getting to know people in our new neighborhood we were like ‘oh my gosh this is amazing we have this person across the street that does this or that's interested in that' and before I think we were just trying to do our own thing and then relating to people asit happened where as now we're much more intentional about making it happen that we connect with those people and creating spaces where we can do that together.Katie: So seeing those gifts as an avenue for ‘this is how we can connect with them, wow' let's learn from that person or is that the difference?Ashley: Yeah and I think even outside of our neighborhood I'm just learning how other people we're connected with have their gifts and who they are, connect with us and vice versa.Katie: Like the common?Ashley: Commonality, yeah the things we share and care about. For example, my uncle is a musician and piano tuner and everytime he and my daughter get together they just love doing music together. And so I asked can we do this quarterly even though you live two hours away, can we like break bread together and do music together and so we've been doing that for two and a half years since we started getting involved here. So I think just being more intentional and making it happen putting it on the calendar and dreaming in a different way.Katie: Yeah and you brought up your daughter and I think I want to bring it back to this idea that in the beginning you were like I need to prepare her to be part of the community. In what ways do you see her now as a part of the community and was there preparation in that or did it sort of did she, did she just get immersed in this way through gifts?Ashley: Yeah I think I've been really intentional about not putting her up on a stage to be engaged with but instead just being a part of our family and people engaging with us and with her. If that makes sense. Katie: Was that a shift for you to think of it that way?Ashley: I think possibly yeah I think I had an intrinsic sense of her belonging and her belonging in her community but I think I had to learn what things I want to bring our family around and to fuel and what things I want to invest in with our family, if that makes sense.Katie: Time-wise even?Ashley: Yeah.Katie: Where you're spending your time?Ashley: Yeah, we did study with our congregation with families and the number one asset the number one deficit that they had was time. That's your number one thing, right, you have to spend it where it counts and so for us we really decided that we look like being together as a family and being with our extended family and being with our neighbors.Katie: Yeah. I guess that part of it in the beginning you were looking at therapy and things to get her ready for people and now you're just like you're doing those things still.Ashley: Yeah, and I guess my answer is I always had a sense intrinsically that she belonged no matter what and I think that having conversations with my mentor affirmed my intrinsic sense of her belonging, does that make sense?Katie: Yes, do you think that hearing that from somebody who is in the disability field to say something as ordinary as like go get to know your neighbors, was that.. Because it's playing into your instincts as a parent that you already know and it seems like most places aren't playing into those instincts they're telling you ‘we're experts and this is what we know that you don't'. And for someone to give you something that you already know as a way of life, you have taken that and it's caught on so quickly and so rapidly.So I guess that was kind of part of my question was like in the beginning you were waiting maybe on ‘well we've got to get these things done, we've got to line this stuff up and then maybe we'll find community or maybe there will be a way to be connected to people, maybe there will be a better time' and then hearing from somebody who's in this role to say no it's now, that you do it the best time is now.Ashley: Yeah, I think it was helpful that my mentor also was involved with their neighborhood, like they're doing it, I've been involved in community and i know the fruits of it. It's helpful to be reminded that it's good and my eyes were just stuck on ensuring that I did everything that I thought I needed to do to support her. It was kind of like with blinders on just missing like the biggest piece of providing her abundant community now and making those connections.Katie: Well what I love about this too is that it's a metaphor for most people's lives, whatever that thing is that you're trying to do the best at, do right at is preventing you from just living and usually that is all you need to be doing. But we're going, we're trying to succeed or we're trying to reach these different heights that have these requirements and steps along the way.Ashley: And then we reach those and there's more. Yeah, we're on like the treadmill of the institution and instead of getting invited out of that and saying ok I'm also going to look for something outside of those boundaries to build my life on is huge.Katie: So what is at stake for you for your family if you don't make an effort then to get off the treadmill? If you don't make this effort to connect to the people around you?Ashley: My daughter being isolated as she gets older and I mean for a girl who is in my bones to know the joy of community that's just not an option. So it makes me really sad to think of her facing isolation when it's not in her bones either.Katie: Were you getting a glimpse of that already? I mean she's really young, were you already feeling like that was part of your lives or becoming part of your lives?Ashley: Well interestingly I was going to a lot of different community things, events and stuff and we were the only ones there who had a child with a disability and I was like I know that's that is not always the case but in the unique places that I was that was the case. So one I thought it was important that I was there and two I just hate that that's the culture that that's set out for families for anyone that's marginalized, right?Katie: The culture being we don't go to ordinary places in the community.Ashley: Yeah being like, well the culture being you're welcome if you are a certain way.Katie: Yes so the culture speaks more towards the families of and unwelcoming sense to say like there's a group for that and it's over there.Ashley: Yeah I think one thing was we belong and we're going and she was really young so I mean when you go to a six month old story time it's fine. Difference is more evident as kids age but I think so kids get older it probably would be more challenging to face that head on for the first time without having some understanding and foundation in kind of what do we believe about this what do we believe is true.Katie: As you grow into connections in your neighborhood do you think you're kind of heading off that uncomfortable feeling in the community when you, as your daughter does get older?Ashley: Yeah it's interesting because we have two or three intervention specialists in our neighborhood. So you can always tell when people have a predisposed idea and so you know you just meet those in conversation and bring to the conversations what you believe in small snippets over time. But yeah I think we have work to do and I think our daughter will lead the way in that with our support. So I think the biggest thing I think maybe it was a quote I read from Starfire, you guys were quoting someone that talked about when you toddle, have people who have known you since you've toddled. Do you remember that quote?Katie: David Pitonyak, “Who holds your story?”Ashley: They'll be like that's.. You know we know her, yeah?Katie: Yes. Ending on a piece of hope what is one hope that you have for your family in the next ten years that has to do with your community building work?Ashley: I hope that we establish rhythms with our neighbors that go on year after year and that we know one another's stories. And when my neighbor is sick I know what to make him because I know what he likes, you know, just the good life of community. And if my daughter is out and she isn't supposed to be out then they know me and they know where to bring her, or that she gets invited to the pool party across the street. Just the basic stuff, nothing extravagant but maybe extraordinary in this time, yeah. Katie: Yeah that is extraordinary, is there anything else you would want to say?Ashley: I don't think so.Katie: Ok I love that, thank you.

Hello everyone and welcome. Today I have the privilege and honor of interviewing Shanna Lee. Shanna helps people heal their body and mind, access their inner guidance and create a powerful life with her soul frequency work. She is soulfully dedicated to you and she helps you raise your soul frequency by helping you create the body and life that you want.     Ashley Leavy: So Shanna, thank you so, so much for taking the time to be here today. Shanna Lee: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Ashley: I'm really excited about today's interview, because it's not often that I get to chat about something that is completely new to me. Would you mind starting out by telling all of us a little bit about yourself, your journey and your soul frequency work? Shanna: Yeah, so when I was a child, I basically had a gift of seeing life in a multi-dimensional way and I had 2 spirit friends who came onto the planet with me. It was like a sitcom, they literally should write a sitcom because my parents, of course, couldn't see them. But I could. And so there were situations where my mother or father would go to sit on the couch and I would say, “You're going to sit on my friend, what are you doing?” And so that went on for a while until I got to an age where I realized that other people weren't experiencing it. I was able to see them, but nobody else really in my life at the time could see them. I made a conscious decision as a little kid to stop seeing them and have them go away. And for much of my life, I decided that I was going to be normal, whatever normal is. So, I really looked around and said, “What are other people doing? I want to do that and built a life like that." I was just looking around at what it is to be alive and thinking "What do people deem as successful or happy or wonderful? I'll just emulate that.” I built a big career and a life and all of a sudden when I checked all the boxes on my list, I was like, “This is it. This is what I was going for.” I got pregnant around that time. And when I got pregnant with my son, I just had a massive reawakening. It was like everything that was connected to that little girl that I was who kind of gave up on what I could experience. The door just flew open and I really think that my son was the catalyst for that. All of a sudden here I was faced with truth. Just the deep truth of what I was experiencing in life and really not knowing how to cope with it. I was being led in all of these different ways. I was called to Sedona and to all of these different locations and given the information and I started to really ask and understand why I was being given this information and what value it had. At the beginning, I didn't feel like it had much value. It felt like it was scary and different. One of the things that I was being shown is the frequency that we resonate on -- our soul frequency. This is like our energetic fingerprint. I was being shown why this matters and how it gets established, and how we can shift that so that the outer experience in our life changes. I was supposed to teach people that we hear energy frequency or we hear energy vibration and really drill down into the details of who we are as an energetic being and how we're able to shift that over time. Also more on the practical level like, what does this mean for our life? And how do we build a practical three dimensional life, understanding who we are as energy? Ashley: So tell me... Was there something specific that triggered this understanding in you when you were going through that big change? Or was it really just that deep soul searching that led you to that discovery? Shanna: Well, I felt more and more distant for a while in the life I was living. This is typical with a lot of clients and people I know. It's like you start feeling like you're pulling out of the life you're living and looking back at it, rather than being in it,

Ashley: Hello. This is Ashley here with the Mompreneur Tribe. I am so thrilled today to have someone that's in it kind of different market. You really sometimes wouldn't think of a mom entrepreneur in this area. But here is a mom that is rocking it, is business partner with her husband. Her name is Catie Bird. She is with Harley Davidson of Durango, Colorado. Welcome, Catie. Thanks for being on. I'm just so excited because this is just ... You have such a unique business. So can you introduce yourself please and tell us a little bit about you? Catie: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much first of all for thinking of me and wanting to include me on your podcast, it's a really big honor. I think that being a mompreneur is definitely something to be really proud of and excited for. I'm in about two and a half years of entering that mompreneur role. So I'm still learning quite a lot of what it takes to be a business owner and whatnot. I'm just really grateful to you too for including me in this podcast. Catie: A little bit about me, my name is Catie and I am a southern girl from Texas, was born and raised in South Texas my whole life. And now as of about two years ago, I now live in Southwest Colorado with my husband, Trevor, who he and I have been married for 10 years, celebrated in November. We have two beautiful children. Millie is our daughter. She just turned nine last week and our son Reese, who turned seven recently as well. Catie: My husband, Trevor and I own Durango Harley Davidson here in Durango, Colorado, which is far Southwest Colorado. So if you think about the US map and you're looking in Southwest Colorado, we're right next to the four corners, so where we connect with Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. It's really a pretty amazing place to live as far as landscape, the mountain ranges and the rivers. It's just a beautiful place to be and a really big destination for motorcycle riders. Catie: There's so many wonderful rides that draw people here. So we are mostly a seasonal business, which is a big change for us from coming to Texas because we in Texas ... It's summer basically year-round. So people are riding motorcycle all the time, so things don't really slow down. Here, it's very, very different.We have about six out of the year to really sell, sell, sell, make it or break it before winter hits, and everything basically comes to a halt. So it's definitely a very different way of life in a very different style of business from what we're used to. I think we've done a really good job of adjusting to that and running our business based on that model now of seasonality. So- Ashley: Tell me about how you got there. That was the next thing is like why did y'all leave Texas to go up to Colorado and start out on this business? Because y'all been a part of the Harley Davidson Family for a while now, right? Catie: Yes, yes. My husband, Trevor has been working for the brand, sell Harley brand for gosh, close to 17 years now and with two dealerships back in Texas where we're from. I've never been involved with the Harley business. When I graduated college, I went into the corporate world and I started working for the NBA with the San Antonio Spurs was my first job out of college. Catie: That was a really amazing experience and really learned a whole, whole lot there. Then from then, from there I decided we were ready to start a family. And so I became a stay at home mom for about seven years, which I feel very blessed that I was able to do that as long as I was. All the time while I was staying at home or working with the Spurs, my husband was continuing with Harley Davidson in San Antonio in the New Braunfels area. Catie: Then I kind of started feeling my kids were getting a little bit older, starting Mother's Day out. I was kind of feeling like I was missing something, I love being a wife and a mom, but I was missing a purpose I felt like for myself outside of those roles. My best friend actually has started her own business selling custom men's wear, custom men's wear company. So I jumped on with her. Because I have a love of fashion, I have some merchandising background as well. So I jumped in and started my own business with her selling custom men's wear. So that was really fun and fulfilling. I was able to do it on my own time and still be there for my kids, and be home for Trevor and do the whole mom-wife thing as well. Catie: But just a few years ago, an opportunity kind of arose, Trevor and I had been really praying and thinking a lot about our future and what we wanted for our kids. While he had a partnership in some of the dealerships in Texas, we felt like it was time for us to branch out on our own, with all, with all of his years of knowledge, it was time for us to go and find our own dealership where that could be 100% owned by us and our family. Durango kind of fell in our laps, it's kind of a long story of how that happened. But it has been such a huge blessing. If you would've asked me 10 years ago where I saw myself today, living in Southwest Colorado, owning a motorcycle dealership would never have crossed my mind. Catie: I never grew up around motorcycles. I didn't know really much about them at all other than I would ride with Trevor and we would go places and do stuff. A little bit of the business side from what he would share with me. But that definitely was not in my wheelhouse of plans for myself. So it's kind of really interesting to see where I am now. But I wouldn't change a thing. It's been an amazing blessing for our family to be here. I also never thought I would leave Texas. I've gotten my Southern roots and they are deep. But it's really been fun, a fun adventure to try somewhere new and be somewhere new with meeting different people. There's so many wonderful blessings that have come from it. Catie: But now, when we took over ownership of the dealership back in June of 2017 is when we started, we were just blown away immediately by the team that was already here and in place. All of the managers that were with the business before we took over ownership are still with us today. That's something that Trevor and I are really proud of because this team that we have is in my opinion, the best in the business. Catie: They were really great about transitioning and learning a new way of doing things with our business model and whatnot. They have just really, really made our jobs easy as far as leadership because they all are leaders. They all do a great job. We really are a family here. And that's one thing that sharp and I have always talked about from the beginning is that we want to be a family where we want everyone to feel welcomed, and loved, and supported. Also, we are a family owned business. Our kids are very much involved in everything that we do here at the dealership and combined with them being here all the time and having a strong relationship with our team, we feel really lucky to be here. So that's kind of how we got where we are in a nutshell. Ashley: That's such a leap of faith to leave, be a Texan and leave. I feel like so many ... So many people come to Texas, they rarely leave unless it's a big calling. And you found that calling and y'all left. Now here you are, you're two and half years into this new business venture. But it sounds like you guys are very settled in it. Can you tell me a little bit about your roles? And what it's like being in business with your partner? And how you all divide up responsibilities and then day in and day out of juggling the kids? Catie: Yes, absolutely. So it's really kind of cool how it's worked out because I, to be honest, was not quite sure how it was going to go, working with Trevor 'cause we are together all the time anyway. And I'm thinking, are we going to butt heads? We've never worked together before. How is this going to work? And so it just fell into place in that I know his strengths, his strengths are my weaknesses and kind of vice versa as well. My strengths are kind of his weaknesses. So where Trevor takes over, he handles most of the overlooking things, the motorcycle sales division and all of the finance part of the business, which I am not a numbers person. That is so far over my head, and I will admit it. Catie: That is a big weakness of mine. Being a business owner, it's definitely something that you should know really well. I'm taking the baby steps to really try and dive, dive in and learn more about that side of it. But for now, it's great that I have this partner that does know that side really well so that I can focus on where the other needs in the business are, which are marketing and the merchandise sells, so the general merchandise department. So if any of you who aren't familiar with Harley Davidson or have never been into a Harley Davidson dealership, I'll just kind of explain a little bit of what it looks like. Besides this your showroom floor with all of the motorcycles, the new and used, we also have a very large general merchandise department. Catie: So clothes, fashion, writing gear, your leather jackets, your riding boots, all of your protective gear as well as just your casual gear that you wear when you're not on the bike, so the fashion side of it. There's also a parts department where you can come and buy motorcycle parts and then have them installed in our service department, which we have a really large service department. Very, very wonderful service department. Catie: We get compliments on our team back there all the time on their great service and, and how well that they do. So there's lots of different areas of the business that need to be managed and watched over. So Trevor does sales and finance and I handle all the marketing and the merchandise. And it works really, really well because there wasn't a marketing department here in the shop beforehand, before we took over ownership. Catie: It was kind of a split job between like our accountant. The accountant would kind of do it, the controller and everyone kind of shared responsibilities, which was great. They made it work because again, as a seasonal business, we only have about 10 full-time employees that are here year-round. Then once the season starts to pick up, usually in May, then we add about 10 to 15 more just for the summer. So we grow quite a bit in our peak season and then kind of go down to the skeleton crew in the winter time. But there wasn't a specific person that was handling the marketing. So my degree is in public relations and communication. So it was kind of an easy role for me to kind of just step into and start handling that part of it. Catie: So it's actually been really awesome working with Trevor because we respect each other's strengths and we lift each other up. We always lean on each other because we know that this is make it or break it for us. We moved our family away from everything that we knew to take on this dealership. This is our livelihood. So I know to respect him when he says, "No, Catie, this isn't going to work. We've got to restructure and think of something else," and vice versa. Catie: He does the same with me. So having that mutual respect and trust in each other has really made this partnership work, being able to work with my husband each day. I will say there are those days that he really gets on my nerves. I just go and I just shut myself in my office so that ... 'Cause we are husband and wife. We don't get along all the time and we don't always agree, but we respect each other. Catie: So I know when he's in a bad mood, if he's having a bad day, I'm just going to keep my distance today and I will handle what I need to do and vice versa. So it works. It works for us. Ashley: I like that you pointed out several different things. Being in a partnership with my mom, we've definitely learned that we play off of each other's strengths and weaknesses. So her strengths are some of my weaknesses and my strengths are some of her weaknesses. We really play that to the advantage of our business. Then at the end of the day, when you just have respect for your partner, your business partner, whether it's a parent or a spouse or a friend, it really truly goes a long way in business and being able to trust them that "Hey, this is for the good of the business." And like you said, it's your family's livelihood. It's the same with us. It's, actually two families' livelihood and plus you feel the responsibility of all the employees that you employ as well and their livelihood. Ashley: You want to make it work and make it successful for everyone. So I love those points that you pointed out. And then at the end of the day, not everything's perfect. We're all humans, right? So you really know how to keep your space. Catie: Yeah, absolutely. Ashley: So what is a tip that you would give to fellow mompreneurs that are trying to juggle it all and juggle having a business and kids? And because you were a stay at home mom, lik you are very active in your kid's lives and everything. How do you make it work? Catie: That's a good question and I think that I'm still figuring it out honestly. It's just day by day and for me, like I'm such a Type A planner type person that I feel like I have to have every moment of my day and my week planned out. I'm trying to reverse that and to just like being present in the moment and what I'm doing right then, and focusing on that and not stressing so much about what's going to happen later because I find that when I do that, if I'm at either when the kids are at work with me or if I'm at home with them, my mind is just constantly thinking about the next thing. Okay, what do I have to do next? What do I need to do for the kids next? Catie: Instead of being present right there and jumping down on the floor and making that puzzle with my kid or going outside just to kick the soccer ball with my son. I need to be more intentional and more present. And that's something that I'm really working on. So my advice for other mompreneurs out there is that even if you're not a planner or if you are, I do think it's ... I'm a very big list person. I think like being intentional and like actually scheduling that time even if it's just 10 minutes to give your children like your full attention is important 'cause otherwise, the day can just get away from you and you get busy getting ready for dinner, doing laundry talking to that client on the phone problem solving, doing homework, all of that tha. I find that if I schedule lik okay, from 6:00 to 7:00, that's strictly for Millie and I. Catie: Millie and I are going to sit and we're going to chat about her day. I'm going to give her what she needs right now. That's not going to happen every day. And that's okay. I think we also need to give ourselves as moms a lot of grace and understanding that we're not going to be perfect every day, all the time. The mom guilt is real. I have it all the time. The first year for me going from being a stay at home mom to working full-time in a new place without any other family here to help with the kids and all of that, I was really hard on myself and I felt like I was failing at everything, whether it'd be work or the kids because I wasn't doing it perfectly and I didn't have it all figured out. Catie: But now going into, let's see, we did two and a half years now. Like I'm finally learning that it's okay to not have it all figured out and to not be perfect in everything. My kids are loved. They're happy, they're flourishing in this new place. I rest in grace and mercy in that. Like I know that they are good. I guess the advice is just don't be so hard on ourselves. We're doing the best that we can and that's all we can do. I also think that it's really important for our kids to see us as moms struggling. I think that they need to see that mom isn't perfect but mom tries her best. I think that's important especially at work because my kids are at work with us all the time because we don't have extra help. We don't have other family here or whatnot. So a lot of times after school, they come up here to the dealership and they, luckily it's a pretty cool, fun place to hang out. My son loves to go to the service department and sit there and watch all the technicians work on the motorcycles. Ashley: Yes, a young boy's dream playground. Catie: Yeah. It's cool. I mean, I feel like he's getting an education just being back there, watching these guys work. He's got this engineer brain and it's really cool. He loves that. My daughter, she'll jump in on the sales floor and start folding t-shirts. She's an expert t-shirt folder now. She is very confident and talks to customers. It's so cute because I'll have customers come up to me and ask me if she's my daughter and I'll be like, yes. And they'll say, "Oh, she was so great. She came up to me and said, hi, welcome to Durango Harley Davidson. Can I help you find anything today?" So it's a cool place for them to be. I think they're also learning the value of hard work being here and seeing mom and dad running this business. Catie: But our kids also see our bad days. They see it like when there is an upset customer and they're watching how Trevor and I are resolving that. They're seeing like, if Millie comes back to my office and I'm just way behind on stuff, or I just lost this campaign that I ran just didn't go very well and I'm upset about it. I don't hide it from her. My son still so little, I think he's kind of oblivious to a lot of it. But my daughter, she's very in tuned to emotions and things. She doesn't miss a beat, but I let her see me. I don't try and hide it whenever things aren't going great. I think that obviously for her, her age, I don't show her everything that's bad or horrible. Catie: But I think it's important for kids to see that we're human and that we struggle when we fail. But the important thing is that we don't give up. That's one of our family rules. Birds don't give up, we don't quit. We can fail and that's okay, but there's more honor in failing than there is in not even trying because you're afraid to lose. That's big lesson that we want to teach our kids is you can't be afraid to go for what you want. We didn't make this leap of faith to Colorado with the expectation of failing. But we knew that we needed to do, we needed to make a change and this was where God's leading us. We're here and it's not always going to be easy and it's not always going to be exciting, fun, happy days. Catie: But we stand firm and knowing that we're here for a reason and we've got a purpose here. I just think it's important for our kids to see that we are human. When they see how we react to the problems and to things that are going good or bad, then they're learning as well. I'm hoping, my hope is that one day when they enter the workforce for real, they're going to know the discipline that it takes to be successful and not being afraid of failure because that was a big challenge for me is failing. Catie: Watching my husband throughout his business and his life with Harley Davidson, I've seen him take a lot of risks. We've also had a lot of failures. But I really respect that he's never let that stop him from trying something new and doing what he wants. So watching him go through that has given me the confidence to know that I can do this too. I may not know a whole lot about motorcycles. I do a lot more now than I did two years ago, but I know that I have passion for this brand. I have passion for our business and the people that worked here and our customers. It makes it extremely fulfilling to come to work every day. Ashley: Your passion just now, I am just taken away. When you said the we will show honor, more honor in failing like the life lessons that you just talked about right there and how you're showing that to your kids, it's so impactful. I tell this to my husband sometimes, I'm like taking our kids to work with us, they will learn so much more some days than they ever will in that classroom. Ashley: The life lessons, and you just like nailed it with everything you said and how your kids are involved in the business in the day in and day out, and being a part of it, and seeing your reactions with customers. I absolutely agree with you just because we have a retail store too. My oldest is old enough to come and understand those interactions. You're absolutely right. They're watching our interactions, they're learning from it. Ashley: It can be such a good thing. It can be such a good thing to show that to our kids and just the way you articulated it was so great and just hearing your passion behind it, how it's more than actually just you being a mompreneur and being in partner with your husband. But it's a whole family. It's the whole family there that made the move, that's doing this business together. That's incredible. I applaud you guys. I loved hearing all your passion just now when you were talking about just the tip that you give, it is true. It is so true. And how we be present in our day to day lives for our kids, but also to give ourselves grace. So much grace. Catie: Yeah. Exactly. So much grace. Yeah. We're not perfect and we never will be. But all we can do is just do the best that we can. I'm making it a goal of mine to just not worry so much about everybody being happy and everything being perfect and take me. It's okay. It's okay if they're not ... It's okay that they're here at work with me every day after school this week because I have a lot going on. You know what, that's all right. Because what would they be doing at home besides sitting there watching TV or jumping on the trampoline? They've got stuff to keep them busy here and I can be okay with that. They're going to be just fine. Ashley: Yes. Catie: So yes, grace is a big, big thing. Ashley: Yes. I look at it with our family business is that they could be at home with a babysitter in front of the TV or they could be there interacting with ... It's great communication skills. Catie: Absolutely. Ashley: It's much better than them learning to text or play on the computer. They're learning great communication skills, dealing with customers and learning to talk to our employees. Ttalking respectfully, I feel like that's a great teaching studio for them. Catie: Yeah, 100%. Ashley: Catie- Catie: That was awesome. Ashley: I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation today. I think you provided such wisdom to other fellow mompreneurs and especially that we just need to show ourselves grace. Something I ask all guests is what is a way that we can show up or support your business and you guys during this season? Yeah, how can we support you guys? Catie: Awesome. Well, you can support us if in the way of just follow us like on our Instagram page we actually have a really cool Instagram page. We do all these different lifestyle posts everyday of different motorcycle riders far and wide all around the country, in the world. They're really, really neat. They all have positive messages to them as well. So our Instagram page is @DurangoHarleyDavidson, all one word, no dash or anything. And then you can also check out our website, DurangoHarley.com. But one thing I want to touch on and follow us on Facebook too. Yeah. 'Cause we post a lot on there as well. But we also own a motorcycle rally that happens here every Labor Day weekend. We just finished year two for us. It's actually a rally that's been around for like 26 years or something. Catie: But right when we moved here, it kind of fell out. The previous owner that had some bad business skills kind of had ran it into the ground. But it used to be, there used to be 20 to 30,000 motorcyclists that would come through Durango on Labor Day weekend. It kind of fell apart. So my husband and I, and our marketing partner in the rally, John Oaks really tried hard to rebuild this rally. Catie: Bring it into a new light with different, with newer events like hooligan dirt, dash races. We just did our first ever motorcycle hill climb at Purgatory Resort, which is where our ski mountain here. It was a huge success and it was really, really awesome. I encourage you also to follow Four Corners Motorcycle Rally on Instagram as well. They post a lot of really awesome content, but the rally is a great way to support our local community here in Durango. They would bring a lot of economic success here for that, that one weekend. So that's a great way to support as well, just talking about what it is that we're doing here in Durango for labor day weekend and bringing in that next generation of motorcycle riders and bringing something fun to the community. Ashley: Awesome. So we will. We will ask, we ask all of you listeners out there if you will engage with them. So follow them on Instagram for the Four Corners Motorcycle Rally as well as Durango Harley Davidson on Instagram. I'm going to go check them both out. Then of course I didn't realize that different Harley Davidson dealerships have different websites. So that's good to know. If you are a Harley fan or maybe you have a need to buy a gift for a Harley fan, that's where I am. My dad had a Harley day was then growing up. And so my only purpose I've ever had in life is just to buy gifts. Ashley: So I literally walk up to the counter and just check out. I've never even explored the dealership. I just ordered and picked up there. S go and shop you guys at Durango Harley Davidson. All of this information will be in the show notes as well as if you click through and you got to our show through a social media link, go back to the social media page cause we're going to tag those in the social media pages. Ashley: Catie, I thank you for being a guest on today's show. Listeners, I invite you, you just heard me talk about how we can support Catie and her husband, Trevor in the Durango Harley Davidson dealership, their business. Please go out, engage with them on social media. Ashley: That is something you can do that is free, to support any business. And sometimes you hear a big brand and you think, "Oh, that's just some national brand." No, there's actually families behind these big brands. So the Bird Family owns this dealership. It's family-run. Sometimes people get lost in those big brands, but no, it's actually a family-owned business. So go out and support them. Ashley: And if you liked today's episode, I invite you to hit subscribe and leave us a review. We always are looking for feedback and comments, and want to hear all your great thought and reviews. So thanks for listening and have a great day. Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. To find out more about Ashley, log on to the MompreneurBoutique.com that's the MompreneurBoutique.com.  

Hi, everyone, and welcome. Today, I have the pleasure of interviewing the amazing Kimberly Snyder. I you haven't heard of her, you must be living under a rock, she's amazing!   Kimberly is the founder of Solluna and the Feel Good Movement. She's also a multi-time New York Times bestselling author of the Beauty Detox book series and Radical Beauty, co-written with Deepak Chopra. Not to forget, she's also a nutritionist, renowned speaker, meditation teacher, certified yoga instructor, and holistic wellness expert. Basically the long and short of it, is Kimberly does it all. So Kimberly, thank you for being here today! Kimberly Snyder: Oh Ashley, thank you so much for having me. I am so thrilled to be here today. Ashley: Now, I am really excited to be chatting with you, because you have a new book out. It's called Recipes for Your Perfectly Imperfect Life. Last time you and I were chatting, you told me a little bit about why this project was so important to you and how this came to be.  Could you share a little bit about the journey that this project took you on? Recipes for your Perfectly Imperfect Life by Kimberly Snyder _______________________________________ Disclosure: The link here is an affiliate link, meaning I may earn a commission if you click through and make a purchase. Yay! Kimberly: Yes. So this book actually feels very, very different than my other books. I went through a lot personally around the writing of this book. Last year, my Mom ended up passing away really suddenly within six weeks. She passed within a few days of my son turning one. So it was one of those moments in our lives where we just had what I can only describe as an awakening. I felt like I had a Durga sword cut right to my heart. And it cut through all these layers. I started to feel this really deep clarity, I was looking at things in a different way. I have worked in wellness now for over 10 years. When I look around, I can still see so much suffering, so much perfectionism and comparison within Instagram, all contributing to this deep feeling of not enough-ness, feeling like we're still not enough or not doing enough or not skinny enough. We don't know enough. We haven't got enough time by a certain age or whatever it is. So this book really came out of that. I was healing myself, and I was writing this book in that period. It's written with the intention, with the mission of helping women and everyone feel better, feel good, feel connected to ourselves. Ultimately, this book was created to help us find more peace in our perfectly imperfect lives. When I say feel good in our Feel Good Movement, it doesn't mean, oh, we're up and elated and happy all the time. It means we're connected to ourselves, to our guidance, to that inner wisdom. Through the ups and downs of life we go through so many cycles. Solluna, the name of my brand, means the sun and the moon. So it's in the dark period when seeds are planted. New beginnings come out of the darkness. So we certainly don't want to shy away from the darkness. It's then that we can feel connected to ourselves more and more. Again, find peace. It's not like, oh, we have to be happy once we lose 10 pounds or once we get that new job or we get the boyfriend or the wife or whatever it is. We can actually find it now. The other thing I'll say is, the title Perfectly Imperfect comes from me being a recovering perfectionist and having eating disorders. I was bulimarexic. And I think that's why I was drawn to becoming a Nutritionist in the first place -- I was healing myself. I think we teach what we need to heal in ourselves, what we want to learn. Ashley: So true. Kimberly: So, it was both. And I talked about this in the book... Our value really comes from us simply existing and being alive. We have these unique souls, and we need to do nothing to gain that value. Once we connect with our value -- and there's tools and strategies and even recipes and foods that help drop ...

Hi everyone! This week I am so thrilled to be interviewing Nicolette Sowder from Wilder Child. If you don't know Nicolette, you really should get familiar with her and her community...   Nicolette leads an amazing community for those who are really passionate about raising a wilder child and getting back to nature with their children. So Nicolette, hi! And thank you so much for being here. Nicolette Sowder: Hi, thank you so much for having me on, I'm so excited. Ashley: So, Nicolette... Could you start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and your mission and how you got started with Wilder Child? Nicolette: Sure, so right now, I live with my husband and my two little girls and we're wild schooling on sixty acres in Michigan. We actually run a pastured farm, but we weren't always here. We were on a trip five and a half years ago... the time's gone so fast... but so much has been packed into such a small amount of time. So we moved from Northwest Indiana -- it was really like a satellite suburb outside Chicago -- so we did have a little bit of property, but once we moved here, I mean, we are now just surrounded by nature. I always grew up appreciating nature with my parents, so that really instilled some key values within me. This was all enhanced when I got here, just us being dominated by nature. It was all around us, and I was able to form such a close relationship with our animals. At that time I had my one year old, my daughter who now is almost six (which I can't believe!), but when we came here she was one. It just had such a profound impact on me being in this environment with her. I felt like I really had to start writing about it. I think that's how a lot of bloggers start, with trying to express this totally transformational experience that you're having with your children. This was all enhanced with us being really with mother nature as well. I like to think of her now as the third parent. So this whole experience was mind-blowing, I thought I had to write about it. Then it became so much bigger than me. It just felt like there were so many parents who just wanted to talk about it, talk about how to reintegrate and heal that bond with nature from a parenting perspective. I feel like at that time, there was a lot of nature-based educational information, although there wasn't that much in the parenting context. That's really where Wilder Child has moved and really, really speaks. That's my passion, it's working with parents, working with families. Ashley: You know, I think this is such an interesting story because you had this experience growing up yourself as a child who was very connected to nature. It's not just something that you're interested in on your own, but that your parents really encouraged. Then when you became a parent yourself, it sounds like it was almost not only about  creating this connection for your own child but also in some ways, it was maybe a reconnection for yourself and learning to understand the natural world in a different way, through a parent's eyes. Nicolette: Oh my gosh, that's exactly what it was like. The role of nature and how it fits into your parenting life is a very special and very different thing to just nature on its own when you're growing up. There's a completely different energy when you're growing up, and I think you tend to miss a few things. It's still immersive when you're a child and it's so instinctual, that connection with nature, it almost goes unacknowledged. I don't mean that in a bad way, it just is. Mother nature should've always been with you, then and now. It's just that now, mother nature has become much more of a support system for me, one that I am fully able to appreciate and acknowledge. Everyday, I'm more and more thankful, more and more aware of the role that Mother Nature is playing in my life. Ashley: Sure, that's so beautiful. I'm not a parent myself but I remember spending so many days a...

Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Melanie Beckler. She's the founder of the popular site, ask-angels.com, as well as the author of Let your Light Shine, Angel Messages, Ascension Angel Messages, and Experience Angels. I'm sure you're probably familiar with at least one of those wonderful titles.   Melanie's an angel channel, a light being, and a volunteer soul here to serve in elevating the vibration of the collective consciousness on earth. She's an internationally acclaimed author, ascension guide and clear channel of the light who's passionate about sharing the empowering messages and the elevated frequencies of the archangels and spirit guides. Her work revolves around helping others to remember the truth of their magnificent light and infinite personal power they carry within their open heart. Melanie, I am so excited to have you today. Thank you so much for joining us. Melanie Beckler: Absolutely. Thank you. I'm excited to get to talk with you today. Ashley: So, I'm wondering if we can kick things off because I haven't quite had a guest that does exactly what you do on the podcast before. I'm really excited about this because I find that so many people are waking up to the intuitive skills that they have.  Can you can tell us a little bit about your work and what exactly an angel channel is and does? Melanie: Absolutely, great question. So, I think the easiest way to explain what I do is by starting off with the basic understanding that in every moment, we're all surrounded by an entire ocean of spiritual beings. And we have angels and guides and spirits that are always influencing us, guiding us, supporting us in our life. What I do, is I've learned to open some of my senses of psychic perception in order to be able to specifically tune into that angelic realm and to the messages, love and frequency of the angels. So I essentially go inside, open my heart, open my mind, my third eye and my crown and link with the highest angels of Christ light -- the highest angels of love who conserve in the moment. And then one word at a time, while simultaneously broadcasting an incredible love frequency, the Angels deliver their message through me. So, another way of looking at it is that I'm essentially a translator for the messages of the angels, which are always around us. I have opened up the ability to tune into the angels around us and convey them in specific words through an angel message. Ashley: Wow, this is super interesting to me. While you were just speaking, all these thoughts were going through my head because I find this so fascinating. So, when you were talking about how you just learned to kind of tune in to that specific frequency of the angelic realm, it made me think of someone turning a radio dial to find the exact station. Like, you're looking for that message -- you know it's there. Is that kind of what it's like for you? Melanie: Yes, absolutely. I think that's a great analogy and it's one that I've totally used myself. It really is a lot like that. Like I said, angels are around everyone. Everyone has at least their guardian angel who is guiding, supporting, and loving them in every moment. But as human beings, we're so accustomed to just focusing on the physical world, on the physical plane. We've incarnated into the earth through this veil of illusion, so that we, by default, are tuning out the higher realms of spirit. However, as you said, we live in this incredible awakening time. More and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that there's so much more going on than we've been led to believe about physical reality. This awakening process happens differently for everyone and unfolds in a number of different ways. But very commonly, what happens in awakening is we are attuning our frequency to the higher realms, so we're tuning into those messages. Specifically, there' s different ways of perception, different energy centers of perception. When we open those,

Hi, everyone and crystal blessings. Today, I am so excited to be interviewing the amazing Adam Barralet. Adam is someone that I’ve been following for quite some time. If you’re not familiar with him, you may actually know him and not even realize it from his amazing YouTube channel where he talks all about healing crystals.   Ashley Leavy: So Adam, thank you so much for being here. Would you mind introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about how you got started working with crystals? Adam: First of all, thank you very much for having me today. I’m really blessed to be in a chat with you all, your fans, your following and your circle. So my journey began with crystals over 20 years ago now. I walked into a crystal shop and I bought myself a little Amethyst. I went home and I read all about the magic and the mysticism of that crystal on the little bit of pamphlet they gave me. The next week, I’m back in that crystal shop and I bought another one, and then another one, and another one - to the point where now I think I work with about 300 different crystals. So that’s where I kind of began. I would buy so many books and try to find as much information as I could about crystals. There’s so much information out there that would tell me that a rose quartz is good for love and Citrine is good for abundance, but they wouldn’t tell you what to do with them. So I was collecting all these crystals, but they were just sitting on the shelf looking pretty. If we’re drawn to crystals, we can justify spending $10, $20 or $50 on a bit of rock, however our friends and family may wonder where our money is going. So I thought, if I have this unique drawing to gifts from mother nature, I also have the responsibility to make sure I know how to use them. Otherwise, it’s like giving you a Ferrari and you leave it sitting in the garage. So I started bringing another elements of different practices: aromatherapy, astrology, Feng Shui, guided visualizations, spell work and more, to find out how they create and understand love, healing and protection. I grew up in Australia, however I lived in Toronto for a while and in New York City. I had some great teachers in these places, and when I finally came back to Australia, I met some great people who invited me to write my books and produce my oracle cards. Now I’m blessed to travel around the world teaching people what to actually do with these colorful things that we love so dearly. Ashley: You know, Adam, I’m so glad that you brought that up because as a crystal teacher that was earlier on in life a student, that was one of my biggest complaints while I was trying to learn everything I needed to about crystals. I mean, I have over 200 crystal books, but  it seemed like there were all these encyclopedic volumes about what the properties of stones were but not as much information on what to do with them. Often, the information you got was so overly complicated that I constantly felt like, Oh, what if I make a mistake? Or this has a lot of steps. It seems really complicated. What if I don’t have all of those special tools or things that I need? Through my own work with stones I eventually realized that it doesn’t have to be difficult or complicated. I think more and more people are waking up to that. Now, you see amazing books available like your book “Crystal Connections: A Guide To Crystals And How To Use Them” which really is more practical. It's more of a hands-on, integrated approach to working with stones  Adam: Exactly. You know, I love working crystals and I wanted many people to feel confident with that. If we can’t make it simple and understandable, then we’re going to be eliminating people who will feel helpless with what to do with their crystals. Ashley: So true. Now, Adam I know for you a big part of your attraction to stones is really because of this value that you have about living in harmony with nature. So...

Today I am so honored to be speaking with the amazing Judy Hall, who you might be familiar with because of her work on the Crystal Bible series of books. She has just come out with an amazing new book all about crystal grids, and I am so excited to hear all about it from her and share it with you.   Ashley: I'm so excited to speak with you. This is a topic that has really become so popular over the past few years. Why do you think there is this new and sudden interest in crystal grids? Judy: Well, for me, I've used them for many years. It's such a convenient way of generating energy. They are somewhere to put your intentions. Does that make sense? Ashley: Absolutely. Judy: You can lay them out, set them up, and then they will work for you, and you don't have to keep playing the intention. In fact, the more you can let them get in with it themselves, the more effective they are. Ashley: So, you recommend using them as more of a background energy? Judy: A powerful energy running in the background is how I would describe it. I think that they work on many different levels. They will work on what we think we need, but also, because crystals are sentient, intelligent things, much more intelligent than we are, they know what we really need as well. They also know and will work on what is needed around us. So, when I set up a grid, it's not just a question of 'what do I want?' or 'What do I think I need?' -- I always try to work with the crystals for the highest growth. Ashley: Oh, I love that. Judy: I'm not pushing myself deciding that. But if there is a bigger intention or a bigger outcome that they can bring about, I'm very happy to cooperate with them on that. Ashley: I love that. Judy, there are lots of definitions for what a crystal grid is or what a crystal grid should be. How do you like to define a crystal grid? Judy: That's a tricky one, isn't it? Because people understand different things by it. To many, it's a pattern based on basic geometry, and that in itself, creates an energy. The crystals that go onto the grid work with an underlying pattern to bring energy into harmony. It can be really simple. I was writing the other day about a tombstone grid but I was actually keeping them either end as if it were an infinity symbol. Ashley: Oh, beautiful! Judy: It was around the immunity points on the chest. As you can well hear, I've had a cough and the English weather is not helping. We've got rain, fog, and all things that are not really good for breathing. So, I was setting up a crystal grid using some new cherry quartz and emerald quartz (which are being called tangerine). We found last year that it works best if you put some on the higher heart and at the base of the breast bone. It actually creates this infinity symbol that meets over the heart, and it's very good for strengthening the immune system. Ashley: Oh, I love that. So let me ask you this: most people tend to think of a crystal grid as just being something that you would put maybe on an altar or something in your sacred space. But in what you just mentioned, you're actually placing the grid on the body. How would you decide whether to use a grid on the body or just set up somewhere in your space? Judy: To me, it does rather depend on what I'm doing. If I want to balance my chakra for instance, that goes on my body. Although, if it's going to be inconvenient to have crystals on my body for very long, I might equally setup a chakra grid on a tree of life grid or something like that. If I'm doing earth feelings or sending energy to a situation like trying to find the right job, then to me, that's something that I will put either on an altar or tuck away in a corner of the house. I use the feng shui grid to position the grid sometimes. So, if I'm looking for love I will go to the love corner, or if I'm looking for money I'll go into the money corner, that sort of thing. It's very much a question of 'Where does it fee...