Podcasts about weekwe

Destroy All Movies - Star Wars: Attack Of The Clones - RevisitedWe are on a vacay break so we wanted to give you a flashback to 2021. Nerw show next weekWe revisit the second Star Wars prequel. Do we like it any better than the first time around or do we tear it a new one?destroymail@gmail.comhttp://damshow.co

#286th for 29nd May, 2025 or 3311! (33-Oh-Leven, not Oh-Eleven, OH-Leven)http://loosescrewsed.comJoin us on discord! And check out the merch store! PROMO CODEShttps://discord.gg/3Vfap47ReaSupport us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/LooseScrewsEDSquad Update: (Insert snarky dig at Bloomingwind by Oblivious)BGS still exists and hasn't change much since last weekWe may want to attempt another try to take back Miola since BBfA appears to have taken it successfully from PPMCThere are a couple of other systems we may want to take back7 Alpha Lacertae influence has been hanging at 2.8% like a booger on a 3 year old's noseStanding orders still happen in discord for those who cares. PowerPlay Update: - Cycle 31 - Undermining is taking a huge leap this weekGrom and Archer seem to be on the defense the mostSol received over 1.7 mil undermining against Archer, Alpha Centauri demoted from fortifiedGrom Bhil Mina, Skeggiko O, and LFT 926 heavy undermining 2/3 demoted to exploitedIs the Alliance known as ZYADA holding?"The Elite Powerplay community is seeing unprecedented levels of undermining and acquisition volume in the past few weeks. Yuri Grom is actively resisting, and will continue to do so. We have also asked Frontier to review the activity, in the event that these abnormally high levels of undermining are not the result of legitimate gameplay, and encourage players in other powers to do the same.” - Yuri Grom Spokesperson“[...] We'd be happy to celebrate if it was any public community effort but with what PP2 currently seems to be in practice, we have reason to worry even for our enemies.” - Aisling Duval SpokespersonNo New Powerplay Orders for LSN this week, stay tunedNiceygy's Power Points - https://elite.niceygy.net/powerpointsFind out more in the LSN-powerplay-hub forum channel.Galnet Update: https://community.elitedangerous.com/Rising Tensions Between Galactic PowersDev News: FU - Twitch Drop Paint Jobs for the Asp Scout and Vette and Vanguards Preview 1CG - You can get two sets of useless double engineered power distributors if you're in the top 75% of the losing team because folks who don't care about the outcome have waited and sided with the winnerVanguard (Officially) Is a revamp of squadrons, making them more like “guilds” in other MMOs.Discussion:Chig Asks - Something about pipsCommunity Corner:Roy's Stories, DS3 Edition, Season 2upvote this and add your voice. It's like 30 weeks in. That's at least 29 weeks late on the fix. The issue has expired and been reposted more than once. Make them pay attention. https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/70594

When we talked to former Donald Trump lawyer and confidant Michael Cohen last week, he spoke to us in a way few people can about how he's dealing — very personally — with life under this regime. You'll want to see the entire conversation, but what really struck us was his ability to look back on his own experience of misplaced loyalty (he went to prison on campaign finance charges stemming from the Stormy Daniels payoff scandal) to find lessons for us all about living bravely through this moment.We know some of you prefer reading to watching, so we're publishing text excerpts of the conversation below. If you missed our live conversation, we encourage you to watch the video above.In the public interest, we are opening this video and transcript to all. But we're also asking candidly that folks support the half dozen or so people who now write for and edit and otherwise support the work of The Ink by becoming a paying subscriber today.Take a moment to support fearless, independent reporting, and to help us keep bringing you conversations like this one. Or give a gift or group subscription.Your support allows us to open these ideas to as many people as possible, with no paywall.How do you, given what you're holding… you've held what you've dealt with what you've gone through to fight this administration what you're holding now in terms of all the knowledge and of what's happening and the same way everybody else in this stream and everybody on the stream has not gone to prison the way you have but are experiencing the blizzard of of insanity the way you are. How do you attempt to keep healthy, keep your mind, you know, working?Like, what do you, at a very practical level, because I think a lot of people are dealing with this just when they open up the news on their phone. What are you trying to do to stay sane, given all of this?The busier that I keep myself, the less I have time to think. The more time that I have to think, the worse the PTSD gets. Sleeping is a disaster because that's when your mind works overtime. I haven't had a good night's sleep in probably seven years.Remember, as of yesterday, yesterday was the seven-year anniversary of the raid on my home, the hotel room I was staying at, and my law office by the FBI that sparked this entire chaos.My journey is not a journey that is anti-Trump. I don't care if the last name was Trump, if it was Jones, if it was Smith, if it was Cohen. It makes no difference to me what the last name of the president is. My concern is for what he is doing. So I tried to take my past affection and my loyalty to him. And I have pushed that way off to the side. I don't think of this as a Trump policy. I think of it as a President Trump policy.And it may be hard for people to understand, but you know, I was incredibly close with him, 15 years basically sitting shoulder to shoulder with him, protecting him from basically everything,providing him with advice and guidance that would only benefit him, not harm him. And sometimes, as I'm watching and I can't discern the difference between yesterday and then today.And I'm wondering, where is the Michael Cohen in this inner circle? Where is the Michael Cohen in this administration? To say to him, before he announces this willy-nilly, self-inflicted tariff policy stupidity, “Mr. President, you can't do this. Let me just give you my prediction on how this is going to end up. You, of course, you're gonna do whatever you want, but let me give you my prediction.”I did that in 2017 after Steve Miller, the immigration ban, which was really a Muslim ban. And I was in the office shortly thereafter, like a day or so, and he asked me what I thought because they were intending on doing a second round of it. And I said, “Mr. President, can I speak freely?”He goes, yeah.I said, “You're f*****g crazy.” Just like that, in his office.Are you f*****g kidding me? You know I have hundreds of friends who are Muslim, right? Some of whom are my best friends since 1984.So I said, “You're basically telling them they have to leave the country. How is it possible that you think it's OK to ban an entire religion from the country if it has to do with just Somalia? OK, I understand that. But you can't make it this broad.” And he took my advice to heart. And that's why you didn't see a 2.0.There is no Michael Cohen there. And sometimes based upon my loyalty that I had in my relationship that I had to him going back to like 2005, I sometimes I almost feel like I want to pick up the phone, call him and say, “What the f**k are you doing? Why? Knock it off. Do something that will give you a legacy that future generations with the last name Trump will be proud of. Not wrecking the global economy. Who gives a s**t if Xi Jinping comes on his f*****g knees begging to you, begging you for forgiveness? How does that benefit Trump? Your legacy, how does that benefit the American people? How does it benefit future generations?”It does not. And that's the problem. This entire group of enablers — they're only worried about themselves. This is all.Do you think you could break through to him in some way because of that history of loyalty in spite of everything that's happened? If you made that call, do you think it would go anywhere?Today?Today?No, I don't think he would even take the call. I don't think he would even take the call.If the two of us were sitting in a room, just us, and we both were able to lower the fences that we have built around us to protect ourselves from each other. Yeah, I'm certain he would have listened. It wouldn't have taken a Bill Ackman or a Jamie Dimon to get him to reverse what he was doing here.Because somebody breathed into his ear this notion that these tariffs are going to be great for him. It's gonna be a major win. And ultimately, America will be better off for it. It's gonna bring back manufacturing. No, it's not.We're never going back to being a manufacturing country. Too expensive in this country to manufacture. Other countries do it better and much cheaper.And so these are the struggles that I live with. I live with anger. I live with sadness. I live with confusion. I live with yesterday being in solitary confinement with no food, no ability to shower, no change of clothing for 51 days, or my 13 months in Otisville, the unconstitutional remand, when they first took me, because I refused to sign a counterfeit document. Imagine how far Bill Barr's administration, his Department of Justice, went in order to unconstitutionally remand me.They gave me a document that doesn't exist, that they wrote specifically for me. And when the very first paragraph is a massive First Amendment constitutional violation because I refuse to sign that document, I was handcuffed, shackled, stripped out, put into a paper jumpsuit, put into a freezer for three hours to the point I thought my teeth were gonna fall out of my jaw because I was so cold and my jaw was rattling so hard, I thought my teeth were gonna break. I've never felt cold like that before.And then to be transported back to Otisville to be put back into solitary until, thank God, a million times for Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein and my attorney, Danya Perry, who filed that habeas corpus, and the judge determined it was retaliatory and a violation of my First Amendment, constitutional rights. A federal court judge had to enjoin the United States government, the DOJ, the Attorney General, from continuing to violate my constitutional rights?How does something like this even happen? So for me, this is what unfortunately is on the loop that exists in my brain all the time.It's what I wrote in my whole book. Revenge talks about this. And that's why I think it's important for me to continue to speak up so that it never happens to anyone else ever again.That's almost the journey that unfortunately my life has taken me into. And I'm willing to accept it.Well, I know everybody watching this joins me in feeling immensely grateful for your truth-telling voice now and sorry for what you have to go through every day, not just in the limelight, but just in your own life and the quiet of your own life to do that.We are seeing in real time the opposite, generally in this society, a society with no bravery, no courage, people capitulating left and right. So it almost is like an alien phenomenon when you see someone who's willing to tell the truth, willing to stand up.As you can see from all the hearts there, a lot of people are very grateful. So thank you. Always appreciate talking to you, and always appreciate your voice, and take care of yourself.Watch the entire show, with philosopher Olufemi O. Taiwo joining Anand and Michael Cohen, at the link below.And you'll also want to see the powerful town hall Cohen hosted last night with Jim Acosta. It's not to be missed.A programming note: More Live conversations next weekWe're on the road this week, so we'll be taking a break from our regularly scheduled Live conversations. We'll be back next week with some very special guests. On Tuesday, April 22, at 12:30 p.m. Eastern, we'll talk with the economist Dani Rodrik. And on Wednesday, April 23, at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, we'll be speaking with the writer, lawyer, and former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich. You won't want to miss either one, so mark your calendars now!To join and watch, download the Substack app (click on the button below) and turn on notifications — you'll get an alert that we're live, and you can watch from your iOS or Android mobile device. And if you haven't already, subscribe to The Ink to access full videos of past conversations and to join the chat during our live events.Readers like you make The Ink possible and keep it independent. If you haven't already joined us, sign up today for our mailing list, support our work, and help build a free and fearless media future by becoming a paying subscriber. And if you're already a part of our community, thank you! And we'd appreciate it if you'd consider giving a subscription to The Ink as a gift. Or consider sharing a group subscription with family and friends. Or pick up a mug, tote bag, or T-shirt! We appreciate it. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit the.ink/subscribe

We take you behind the scenes at a Bristol Flyers gameday on this week's episode of the Flyers Podcast.Joel and Sam speak to the many people that bring our home games to life at the SGS College Arena.On this week's show - proudly sponsored by Matchday Live:We take an look into the TV broadcast truck to learn how Flyers games reach your screens on DAZNFlyers MC Sam Hardy shows your his gameday setup to create the fan experience inside the WISE CampusPasquale Landolfi and Owen McCormack talk us through their gameday routinesWhat does a floor manager do on a Bristol Flyers gameday?We meet the team at 'The One Pizza Van', bringing our fans their excellent range of fresh pizzasWe chat to the retail team at the Flyers gameday merch standWhat do our DAZN commentators hear in their headsets during a Flyers home game?Operations Manager Mike Edkins explains how the team navigate three home games in a weekWe break down our three recent home games against Sheffield Sharks, Caledonia Gladiators and Surrey 89ersThe Bristol Flyers Podcast brings supporters a unique perspective from behind the scenes, and is available to listen on all major podcast providers, including Spotify and Apple Podcasts and also available to watch on YouTube!The Flyers Podcast is proudly sponsored by MatchdayLive, a product of UK-based sport media and technology company Matchday Media. Their origin sees the coming together of a Bristol-based specialist in sports video production and broadcast, and experienced media and technology partners. Through their first and flagship product MatchdayLive, the company have set out to democratise the ability for clubs and leagues across the globe to deliver broadcast quality, live and on-demand content, directly to their fans.

Send us a textPodcast listeners: We need your help!Please take this short survey and let us know what kind of coverage you value from the Arkansas Times Week in Review. It should take no more than 2-3 minutes to complete. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSelGwfouBLfdR0RWUfz75fNXZFv6Z1s9T7YMPLIGlGK_ri3tQ/viewformThanks! We appreciate your time.Stories discussed this week:Power companies would be able to raise your electric bill more easily under new legislationhttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2025/03/04/power-companies-would-be-able-to-raise-your-electric-bill-more-easily-under-new-legislationSenate committee advances bill to ease utility regulations at consumer expensehttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2025/02/27/senate-committee-advances-bill-to-ease-utility-regulations-at-consumer-expensexpenseHouse committee advances nitrogen gas execution billhttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2025/02/28/email-shows-new-prison-build-was-first-priced-at-1-2-billion-almost-3-times-higher-than-governors-numberGovernor's ‘major' grocery tax relief bill would save you a whole quarter on a $200 trip to the storehttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2025/03/04/governors-major-grocery-tax-relief-bill-would-save-you-a-whole-quarter-on-a-200-trip-to-the-storeBudget bill for Franklin Co. prison now $750 million, more than twice what lawmakers said last weekhttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2025/03/03/budget-bill-for-franklin-co-prison-now-750-million-more-than-twice-what-lawmakers-said-last-weekWe welcome your feedback. Write us at podcasts@arktimes.com

Taylor Rick is back as a Host with Rambo out this weekWe talk to Fat Troll about his amazing kills using a POS..We cover MOBI Mountain and more and a random all over the place no real agenda of a show.

Welcome to the WTR with your hosts, Jay and Karl, delving into the latest tech news, gadgets, games, and films!Available On: •Listen on Apple Podcasts |Listen on Spotify |Listen on Youtube | All Major PlatformsIn This Episode:AI UpdatesJen-Hsun Huang's net worth dropped by a reported $20,800,000,000 after DeepSeek fears shook the AI market to its core earlier this weekIntel nixes its next-gen AI GPU but still has plans to take on NvidiaDeepSeek iOS app sends data unencrypted to ByteDance-controlled servers RumoursiPhone SE 4 with Apple modem, Face ID, and USB-C may launch next weekWe love hearing from you! Drop us a line in the comments or tweet us at@WeeklyTechRant or@weeklytechrant.bs on Bluesky

This episode is hosted by Philippa, Katie & QuentinWe talk about what has happened in Ambridge in The Archers so far this weekWe are focusing on episodes up to (and including) Thursday 10th OctoberYou can support us on PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/AllAboutTheArchersOr you can BUY US A COFFEE here: buymeacoffee.com/allaboutthearchersYou can buy our MERCH here: https://www.redbubble.com/people/aboutthearchers/shopDo join ‘All About The Archers' on our FACEBOOK Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1127587031446013/ You can also watch this on YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@AllAboutTheArchers-vv8jz/videosThe ArchersAmbridgeBBCRadio4#Brookfield #TheArchers #AllAboutTheArchers #radio4 #bbcradio #bbcradio4 #ambridge #soapopera #borchester #bridgefarm #podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is hosted by Philippa, Katie & QuentinWe talk about what has happened in Ambridge in The Archers so far this weekWe are focusing on episodes up to (and including) Thursday 10th OctoberYou can support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/AllAboutTheArchersOr you can BUY US A COFFEE here: buymeacoffee.com/allaboutthearchersYou can buy our MERCH here: https://www.redbubble.com/people/aboutthearchers/shopDo join ‘All About The Archers' on our Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1127587031446013/ You can also listen to this as a podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/all-about-the-archers-a-podcast-about-the-archers/id1706526260The ArchersAmbridgeBBCRadio4#Brookfield #TheArchers #AllAboutTheArchers #radio4 #bbcradio #bbcradio4 #ambridge #soapopera #borchester #bridgefarm #podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Opening week of deer season was fun, but was it successful. It depends on what we define as success. 1) I break each day down on how and what happened.2) I gives the why's on the reasons we failed.3) I rap it up with can't wait to do it again 4) hunting at #runningwatersranch then public for next weekWe are excited about deer season and future pods coming out.Send us a texthttps://www.youtube.com/c/DeltaFlaugeOutdoorsinfo@deltaflaugeoutdoors.comJulius@deltaflaugeoutdoors.com

With Willa fleeing the country for reasons I can't disclose here, Into the Aether cohost Brendon Bigley stopped by to chat this week! We cover Shy Guy Surfing, Brendon's most formative childhood game, the surprising 2024 release he can't stand, and of course, where the key grips stand on Star Trek: The Next Generation.Timestamps(00:30) What's your deal, man?(16:00) Shy Guy Surfing and other actual games(20:30) The game that made Brendon(33:00) Shit-talk corner(40:00) The Deadlock Saga(54:00) What else have Brendon and Robin been playing/doing? (feat. a game I don't want to spoil, Fields of Mistria, Man I Just Wanna Go Home, and Minishoot Adventures)Mentioned this weekWe played Valve's secret new shooter, DeadlockThe Bright Sword is a Radiant Reimagining of Arthurian Legend Brendon's blog, Wavelengths.onlineListen to Into the Aether!Follow us and send us questions!Music Street Food by FASSoundsWe stand for a free Palestine, and against the occupation, oppression, and genocide perpetrated against its people.Please consider donating or otherwise standing up to support Palestinians in the wake of Israel's attacks.Gaza FundseSims for GazaMedical Aid for PalestianiansPalestine Red Crescent SocietyPalestine Children's Relief FundDemand a ceasefire from your representativesGame Assist's "Gamers for Palestine" resource packetCartoonist Cooperative's e-SIM fundraiser Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to another sizzling edition of *Talking Istanbullocks*! Ray and Jorma cool each other down in the sweltering Turkish heat as they give you the funniest 45 minutes of your week.1. Introduction & BanterJorma Kirkko and Ray Mac kick off the show with their usual banter, chatting about the week that was, including Jorma's recent adventures in the film world. Between celebrity parties and the fun of the film set, while Ray still eagerly awaits his big break in 'scud flicks'2. Morgan Freedman's Comedy Poem: Raw DoggingYes, you heard it right! Morgan Freeman is back with another hilarious poem, this time at the request of Erling Haaland. The topic? The latest airplane trend – Raw Dogging. It's as absurd as it sounds, and Morgan delivers with his signature style. Written by Iggy Pop, David Bowie and Morgan FreedmanProduced by Jorma Kirkko3. Discussion on Raw Dogging The lads dive deep into the strange world of Raw Dogging. What started as a questionable in-flight activity has now become the topic of a riotous debate. Is it about simplicity, or just madness? 4. True or False Quiz – Olympic EditionGet ready for a special Olympics-themed quiz! Ray and Jorma test each other on some bizarre Olympic trivia, with plenty of laughs along the way. Who will come out on top this time?5. Donald Trump Sketch: Desert Island DramaIn a side-splitting sketch, Donald Trump and his talking dog, Chris, are still stranded on a desert island. But this time, they're visited by the one and only Marjorie Taylor Swift (no, not the pop star). Big news is on the horizon, but will it be enough to get them off the island? And what has Donald been doing without real women to have sex with for the last year and a half?Written and produced by Jorma KirkkoChris The Dog played by Jorma Kirkko6. Post of the WeekWe wrap things up with the Post of the Week, where Ray shares a joke about a duck walking into a pub. The punchline? You'll have to listen to find out!

Welcome back to the Anxiety Society podcast! In this episode, your hosts Dr. Elizabeth McIngvale and Cali Werner, open up about their personal journeys with anxiety. They explore how these experiences have shaped their lives and careers as therapists. From rescuing stray dogs to navigating social anxieties, they share the most vulnerable moments and lessons learned. Tune in to hear about how the transformative power of effective treatment, can lead to freedom from anxiety. This is a raw, and unfiltered conversation that reveals how we can overcome anxiety in everyday situations.Key Points:[00:06] - IntroductionDiscover the mission of the Anxiety Society podcast and what we aim to achieve together.[01:35] - New Segment: Anxious Moment of the WeekWe introduce a fresh segment where we share our personal anxious moments. It's real, raw, and relatable.[02:19] - Cali's Anxious MomentCali rescues a stray dog, leading to a heartfelt discussion about anxiety, compassion, and coping mechanisms.[06:14] - Elizabeth's Anxious MomentElizabeth reveals her social anxiety over a coffee meetup, offering a candid look at how anxiety can sneak into everyday situations.[10:07] - Relational AnxietiesWe delve into the complexities of relational anxieties and how they affect our interactions and self-perception.[11:17] - Elizabeth's Journey with AnxietyElizabeth begins sharing her powerful personal journey with anxiety, starting from her childhood and leading to her struggles with OCD.[19:36] - The Impact of OCDA deep dive into how OCD disrupted Elizabeth's daily life and the challenges she faced before seeking help.[25:11] - Turning PointThe pivotal moment when Elizabeth sought effective treatment, marking the beginning of her path to recovery.[32:24] - Finding FreedomThe role of effective treatment in achieving freedom from anxiety, emphasizing the importance of proper care and support.Quotable Moments:[34:37] - "Our stories shouldn't be exceptions; they should be the norm. With effective treatment, you can find freedom from anxiety.” - Dr. Elizabeth McIngvale[35:27] - "You don't have to just survive with anxiety; you can thrive and live a life free from its grasp.” - Dr. Elizabeth McIngvale[36:42] - "It's not about fighting to function; it's about fighting for freedom.” - Dr. Elizabeth McIngvaleLinks Mentioned:Anxiety Society Podcast: http://www.anxietysocietypodcast.comInstagram: @theanxietysocietypod | https://www.instagram.com/theanxietysocietypodThank you for tuning in to the Anxiety Society podcast. We hope our stories and insights inspire you to explore your own relationship with anxiety and seek the help you need. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast on your favorite platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and make a difference. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with friends and family. Together, we can change the conversation around anxiety.

"Powers on Sports Podcast" is back and features1996 Gold Medalist in the Decathlon, Dan O'Brien, as the guest with Jason this weekWe talk all things USA Track & Field, the Olympic TrialsPressures of the TrialsWhat the athletes will go thru in Paris?How they can get compensated?Living arrangements and even a little Olympic Village frivolity! Dan's Olympic Gold Medal moment in AtlantaJason gives his thoughts on:CFB Media Days underwayEuro's / Copa America Soccer Finals on the weekendMLB All Star Game questions - Skenes, HR Derby...Twitter/X: @jposportsYouTube : Jason Powers Sports Channel - full video of Dan's interview + archived interviewsSubscribe, rate & review "Powers on Sports" on your favorite pod platform!

Send us a Text Message.Thank you to listener Trilok for pointing out a typo that was on the Nepal Now webpage for almost 4 years, from episode #1. I'm embarrassed but grateful to his sharp eyes.  Please keep the feedback coming, via LinkedIn, as Trilok did, or at the other social channels listed below. You can also email: nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com, or text the show at the link at the top left. It's a US number so the usual messaging charges would apply. I don't think we have many listeners who use Google Podcasts but if you do, that option will soon be discontinued according to reports, so you'll need to find a new app. We're available on most of them — Apple Podcasts, Spotify, PocketCasts, Deezer, and many more — so don't forget to make the move. Recent news about migration and Nepal included a poignant report in Nepali Times that quoted family members of 12 migrants who ended up fighting for the Russian Army and died on the battlefield. This reflects the desperation people must feel to earn money to keep their families afloat. You can hear other news items in the audio, and check out the links below. Coming up next weekWe speak with Prakash Gurung, who keeps trying to move overseas but is yet to succeed. Why does he keep trying? Resources -       Remittances and farm households' income-       Nepali Times – migrants' deaths in Russia-       Nepali youth in Hong Kong Send us feedback and ideas. We'll respond to every message:LinkedInInstagramFacebookVoicemailMusic by audionautix.com.Thank you to the Association of Community Radio Broadcasters of Nepal and Himal Media for use of their studios.

Stories discussed this week:More tax cuts incoming: Governor calls special session next weekhttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2024/06/11/more-tax-cuts-incoming-governor-calls-special-session-next-weekWe can blame one of the clumsiest politicians in Arkansas history for next week's special sessionhttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2024/06/13/we-can-blame-one-of-the-clumsiest-politicians-in-arkansas-history-for-next-weeks-special-sessionFight! GOP fissures laid bare as Arkansas Republicans vote to close primarieshttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2024/06/10/fight-gop-fissures-laid-bare-as-arkansas-republicans-vote-to-close-primariesFather shot by 11-year-old son in library parking lot has long history of crime, drug abuse and child neglecthttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2024/06/12/father-shot-by-11-year-old-son-in-library-parking-lot-has-long-history-of-crime-drug-abuse-and-child-neglectLawsuit challenges LEARNS voucher program as unconstitutionalhttps://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2024/06/10/lawsuit-challenges-learns-voucher-program-as-unconstitutionalEndorsements:Arkansas Times Film Series screens '35 Shots of Rum' (2008) Tuesday night https://arktimes.com/rock-candy/2024/06/13/arkansas-times-film-series-screens-35-shots-of-rum-2008-tuesday-nightThe Sympathizer: https://www.hbo.com/the-sympathizerKami Renee: https://soundcloud.com/soulsistakami/landr-recharge-m-m-balancedWe welcome your feedback. Write us at podcasts@arktimes.com.If you like the show, tell your friends and leave a review wherever you get your podcast.

Taking time off to breathe.Just like last week, we're changing things up a little bit and possibly for the next few weeks.Our Feature reporters Angel, Beth and Brian have each filed reports and then we will follow it up with an interview that we originally aired back in 2022 with Mansfield Methodist Medical Center's CEO Juan Fresquez. As you may know, Mr. Fresquez was recently elected to the Mansfield City Council and I thought it would be a good idea to re-introduce him to the Mansfield community.In the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about why exercise may be a more efficient treatment for depression than antidepressants in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Beth Steinke addresses proper etiquette when attending an open house in the Mansfield Real Estate Report• Brian Certain serves up a libation fit for a prospector in the Cocktail of the WeekWe are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Taking time off to breathe.We're changing things up a little bit this week and possibly next week as well, essentially so I can focus on more pressing matters around me.Our Feature reporters Angel, Beth and Brian have each filed reports and we will hear from them and then follow it up with an interview that we originally aired back in 2022 with Mansfield resident Christy Silvas about her hiking excursion on the Camino de Santiago through France, Spain and Portugal.In the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about how UTIs in seniors could lead to delirium in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Beth Steinke talks about whether it's okay for a buyer to reach out directly to a seller's agent in the Mansfield Real Estate Report• Brian Certain serves up a ginger-laced, bourbon refreshment in the Cocktail of the WeekWe are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Welcome to "Lattes and Lasers," where creativity meets innovation! In this episode, hosts Holly McCaig and Amy Kant are diving into the intersection of technology, creativity, and the human experience. In this episode, titled "Maker Gains with AI," Holly and Amy are joined by first responder and AI student Jake McCaig as they explore a topic at the forefront of the creative world—how AI is revolutionizing the maker space.We're not just talking about any aspect of AI; we're going in-depth on how tools like Midjourney and ChatGPT are changing the game for artists, creators, and marketers in the maker community. Join us as we take a deep dive into Midjourney for Artists and Digital Creators, uncovering its transformative potential for the creative process. Plus, discover how ChatGPT is revolutionizing marketing and SEO for makers, opening up new avenues for engagement and visibility.Whether you're a seasoned maker or simply intrigued by the possibilities of AI, this episode offers insights, tips, and exciting discussions. Grab your favorite latte, power up your lasers, and tune in to "Lattes and Lasers" for an engaging exploration of Maker Gains with AI!What we're drinking this weekWe're drinking "Wake The Hell Up Peanut Butter Cup" from Utica Coffee Roasting Co. Treat your taste buds to a truly decadent experience with Wake The Hell Up! Peanut Butter Cup by Utica Roasting Co. Indulge in the creamy richness of peanut butter paired harmoniously with the sweetness of chocolate, all infused into your morning cup of joe. Crafted with care, each bag contains freshly medium-dark roasted coffee with up to 50% more caffeine, ensuring a bold and energizing start to your day without any bitter aftertaste or coffee jitters. Roasted in small batches right in Utica, New York, this coffee guarantees the freshest flavors money can buy. Plus, rest easy knowing that all our coffees are gluten, allergen, and sugar-free, allowing you to savor every sip without a worry. With its convenient re-closable bag, you can keep your coffee fresh for longer, ensuring that each morning begins with a taste of pureThe Laser Collective Transform your laser cutting and engraving business with our commercial use files.Support the showConnect: lattesandlasers.com Buy Us A Coffee Facebook Instagram TikTok YouTube

Stop doing whatever you are doing! Season 2 Trailers, plural, for House of Dragon just dropped...We've summoned King Jamie East III and Lord of the Nightwatch Chris Mandle for an emergency episode to celebrate!Chris and Jamie talk you through the Green Trailer and the Black Trailer as the second season heads for Civil WarBut don't worry, we'll be right there with you every weekWe are the award winning Dragoncast, Home of the House of Dragon and your only reliable source for Westeros NewsDragoncast is a Daft Doris Production Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is a panel discussion: Rethink the WeekWe discuss the following topics:-Trump scored a delay victory in the SCOTUS ruling regarding his eligibility to be on the ballot. The "immunity" case is still pending.SCOTUS has proven to be contemptuous of the rule of law, and democracy.-We discuss how Mitch McConnell has corrupted SCOTUS by his maneuvering. Democrats are reluctant to "play hardball" to push back. One way would be to 'unpack the court' by removing the criminals from the bench (for crimes committed before and after accession)-We discuss the economy, and whom it currently favors: 90% of productive assets are in the hands of capital (owners). The returns/profits have been higher to owners than to labor.-The essential role of immigrants in the US economy.-The improvement of most lives during the pandemic, primarily because of social programs' expansion, such as health care, food support, family support. The effect of the cancellation/suspension of these on ordinary lives. WNHNFM.ORG   production

I don't know who needs to hear this, but…You do NOT have to be induced at 39 weeks to have a vaginal birth. You CAN have an induced VBAC. Your cervix DOESN'T have to dilate by 40 weeks.Home birth is just as SAFE as hospital birth, even for VBAC.Your pelvis is PERFECT. You are capable of doing MORE than you even know.Tune in to today's hot episode to hear Meagan and Julie dive deeper into these topics and many, many more!Additional LinksThe ARRIVE Trial and What it Means for VBACHome Birth and VBACBrittany Sharpe McCollum - Pelvic BiodynamicsNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. We are already a month into 2024 and we are ending the month off with a nice, spicy episode. I think it will be a little spicy. Julie is with me today. Hey, Julie. Julie: The bringer of the spice. Meagan: The bringer of the spice. You know, ever since you stopped doing doula work as well, you have picked it up a notch in your spice. Julie: Because I'm tired of watching people get railroaded by the system. Meagan: I know. Julie: I have picked it up a little bit, yeah. Meagan: I know. Julie: You have to deal with the backlash by yourself if there is some backlash. Meagan: Seriously. No, this episode is going to be a good one. Women of Strength, I think that this episode is going to be very empowering. Yes, it is going to be spicy. We are going to have passion because if you haven't noticed over all of the years of Julie and I recording, we have passion. When it comes to like Julie was saying, people not being railroaded by the system or not taken advantage of and really knowing what information is true and not, we are pretty passionate about it. So today, we have an episode for you that is going to be amazing. It's titled, “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…” We are going to be telling you all of the amazing things. Review of the WeekWe have a Review of the Week so we are going to get to that and then we are going to kick it up a notch. Julie: Perfect. All right, yeah. I'm really excited about this episode inspired by all of you really, all of us, and everybody in the birth community around the whole entire world. Anyways, this review is from Apple Podcasts and it's titled “Highly Recommend.” It says, “Thank you, Meagan and Julie, for creating this podcast. It holds space for mothers with so many different birth stories and as we know, representation matters. After an unexpected emergency Cesarean with my first daughter, I found myself seeking stories similar to my own. I literally binged your show. It  helped me process my own trauma and was incredibly healing. I have since become a labor and delivery nurse and I find myself recommending this podcast to my patients regularly.” What? That's awesome. “I'm happy to say that this podcast gave me the courage and confidence to TOLAC and I had the most empowering and beautiful VBAC in November. Thank you a million.” That is incredible. I love it. Meagan: That is incredible. I love hearing when labor and delivery nurses or providers will hear the podcast and recommend it to their patients and their friends and their family. That makes me so happy. If you are like our reviewer and you would recommend the podcast, if you wouldn't mind doing us a solid, pause right now but come back because it's going to be great. Pause right now and leave us a review. Go to wherever you are– Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or if you are just listening on our website which you can at thevbaclink.com. You can even just Google “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review and recommend us there because your recommendations and your reviews are what help other Women of Strength find this and find these amazing stories and find the information like what we're giving today. Meagan & JulieMeagan: Okay, Julie, I am so excited. I am so excited. This idea is amazing. We were talking about this before. This is kind of like a viral reel. This reel went viral. “I don't know who needs to hear this…”, but Julie said this. Boom. That is what we are going to do. This is amazing. This episode is going to be so fun. We have actually scrolled The VBAC Link Community which by the way, if you are not in The VBAC Link Community on Facebook, we have a private Facebook group that is very safe and very welcoming to all Women of Strength no matter what type of birth they are wanting, vaginal or Cesarean. You can find us at The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. Answer the questions. You do have to answer the questions to get in because we are very, very strict with that and then we'll get you in. If for some reason, you have a weird decline because sometimes Facebook is declining them on their own, I do not know why, just message us at thevbaclink.com or on Instagram or wherever and just let us know, “Hey, I'm trying to get in,” because we have definitely been having issues. Julie: Weird. Meagan: I know, right? People are writing us like, “We've been trying four times and it's just declining.” But okay, you guys. Julie, do you want to kick it off? “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Julie: Yeah, let's kick it off. Okay, so I don't know who needs to hear this, but you do not have to be induced at 39 weeks to have a vaginal birth. Meagan: Correct. You do not. Julie: It makes me so mad. It lights my fire. I have a friend who lives in Maryland. He is a major researcher. He researches everything and every topic– politics, home school versus public school, anything. He can give you a one-hour speech on demand because he is on a top-notch level. His head is in the papers. He is just there. But for some reason, we as a culture don't like to do that amount of research when it comes to having our babies. Right? Why is that? Anyway, so when his wife had their first pregnancy, it was right after the ARRIVE trial came out, and of course, she got induced at 39 weeks. They've had two other kids since then. They got induced at 39 weeks every time. Lucky for them, it was super great. They had pretty uncomplicated, straightforward deliveries and everything was fine, but I wanted to scream at him and say, “Friend! You research the heck out of everything. Why are you guys not looking into this for your own babies and your own children and your family, the most important thing in your life?” It's always been interesting to me for that. So we know by now that everybody is hungry to induce at 39 weeks. We also know by now– I mean, we knew early on, but the rest of the world is catching up now showing that the results of the ARRIVE trial are incredibly flawed. If you don't know what the ARRIVE trial is, just Google “The ARRIVE Trial, VBAC” and our article on the ARRIVE trial will pop up, but basically it says that induction at 39 weeks lowers Cesarean rates and other complications for mother and baby but there are so many things wrong with that study. There are so many things wrong with that study. I'm not going to get into it because we have a short amount of time, but go look into it. We know now that there have been several research articles from major universities doing research on giant, enormous population groups showing that it actually increases complications and risks associated with induction and it increases the risks of having a Cesarean for mothers. So, guess what though? I hate how fast the ARRIVE trial took on. Everybody is like, “Woohoo! Induction at 39 weeks, let's do this,” but guess what? Now that we are showing that it is actually harmful to families, everybody is looking away. It's going to take 10-20 years for this trend to stop. Meagan: But yet it took overnight for it to start. That's what is frustrating to me. Julie: Because it is more convenient. It is more money. It is easier to manage. Meagan: I have so many feelings. You guys, we have a blog on the ARRIVE trial. We actually have an updated episode on the updates of the ARRIVE trial as well so if you are wanting to learn more about the ARRIVE trial or if you are being told that you need to be induced at 39 weeks in order to have a baby, go check out Episode 247 because we are going to talk more about that topic. Julie: Yeah, absolutely. There's lots to go into it, but I just want you to know. We want you to know that it's okay to go past 39, 40, and 41 weeks and wait for your body to go into spontaneous labor. That is really your best chance of having a vaginal birth. Now, there are reasons and times when a medical need for an induction arises that are true and are actually real. Having an induction doesn't mean you are going to have a C-section, so if you need to go that route for whatever reason that is medically safe for you and your baby, it is safe to do that. “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Meagan: So on that topic, I don't know who needs to hear this, but induction is okay for a VBAC and it is possible to have a VBAC with an induction. So yes, it's more ideal to have spontaneous labor and for things to happen on their own and not to be intervened. But, if medically, there is a reason for an induction, it is okay. You do not have to just have a C-section because there is a medical reason to have a baby. You can be induced. “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”And then sort of on the same topic, but I don't know who needs to hear this, but your cervix doesn't have to dilate by 40 weeks. It doesn't have to. It can dilate after. It doesn't mean it's not going to. If you are not dilated or effaced by 40 weeks, it doesn't mean it won't, right? Julie: Yep. I hate when people say, “I just left my 37-week check-up and I'm not dilated at all. My provider thinks I needed to schedule a C-section.” I'm like, “Your cervix is doing exactly what it needs to do before it's time to let the baby out which is stay closed, stay tight, and keep that baby in.” Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. I don't love that because if a provider is checking at 37 weeks and someone's not dilated, they're placing doubt that they are not dilated and placing thoughts of, “Oh, you're not dilated yet. Oh, you're 37 weeks.” If they're already having that tune, that, to me, is a red flag because if you are 40 weeks and you are still not dilated yet, what do you think they are going to say then?Julie: It's just a sign of control. They want to be able to predict and control and yeah. It might not be the best provider to support you. “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Julie: Okay, I got one. I don't know who needs to hear this, but home birth is just as safe as hospital birth even for VBAC. I think that a lot of people don't know this aside from there have been several major studies in the last 10 years or so showing this, but I feel like what most people don't realize is that home birth midwives, aside from the random rogue ones– you know, here and there you are going to hear a story– but most home birth midwives are incredibly educated and trained at similar levels as hospital midwives are. Now, depending on whether they are certified or licensed, there are different regulations in every state, but midwives at home can carry Pitocin, methergine, and Cytotec. They can carry antibiotics if you are—Meagan: GBS positive. Julie: They can give you IVs. They can draw your blood. They can do all of the routine prenatal tests that you can do in the hospital. They have emergency transfer protocols in place. Every state is a little bit different, but in Utah, it is amazing. The seamless transition from home to hospital and transfer of care records and everything like that, a lot of people just don't know that home birth midwives– like I said, it depends on the state and the regulations whether they are certified or licensed and that type of thing– have access to all of the things except the operation room that you have in a hospital. Meagan: And…Julie: Go ahead. You do the and. Meagan: And if there is an emergency like she was saying, there is a transfer protocol in place. Usually, it doesn't get to anything crazy because we are transferring based on XYZ before there is any true emergency. Julie: Yep. And you know what? Paige is going to be going nuts here because she is going to have to drop so many links into the show notes, but like I said, there have been so many studies that show birth outcomes are similar and some of them are better at home than in the hospital, right? Like a decrease in hemorrhage at home and yes, we can sit here and say that home birth is safe. Meagan: Home birth is safe and a reasonable option for a VBAC. “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Meagan: I don't know who needs to hear this, but your pelvis is perfect. Julie: Your pelvis is perfect. Meagan: Your pelvis is perfect. Your pelvis is not too small, you guys. Yes, there are rare occasions where we have a pelvis that is going to be less ideal to get a baby out or harder where maybe they have gotten in an accident and they've had a pelvic fracture. We've talked about being malnourished as a child or things like that, but it's really rare for your pelvis to actually not be able to get a baby out of it. It was designed to do that. It can do that. We all have different sizes and shapes and little ingredients to our pelvis–Julie: Pelvic ingredients. Meagan: It can do it, you guys. Sometimes it's changing a position because sometimes our babies need to come out posterior. I learned this in a pelvic dynamics class from Brittany Sharpe. She is freaking amazing and we will drop her Instagram in here as well. But you guys, our pelvises mold. They shape. They move. They form. Babies' heads mold, but they are all different shapes, and sometimes, our babies have to come into our pelvis in a posterior position to get out vaginally, or sometimes they have to come in looking transverse because of the way they are shaped, but it's really rare that your pelvis is too small. So if your provider in your C-section said, “Yeah, well while I was in there, I looked and it's way too small. You definitely should have a C-section here in the future,” just move on from that doctor. Your pelvis is perfect.“I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Julie: Move on. All right. I don't know who needs to hear this, but big babies are not a medical reason for induction and it does not mean that your baby can't be born vaginally. Meagan: And it's not a reason for a scheduled C-section. Julie: Yep. Meagan: That goes with any previous C-section because I've seen so many people say, “I've had a C-section because my baby measured large.” First baby. Julie: Even ACOG says that it's not a good reason. Meagan: I know. It drives me batty. Why? Why are we doubting our bodies' abilities? Women of Strength, if you are one and you said, “Okay,” and that's why you had a C-section, don't shame yourself, but know that your body creates a perfect-sized baby. Julie: Yeah. Don't shame yourself because the system railroaded you. Blame the system. That's who you blame. Meagan: And don't lose belief in your body's ability to get your baby out. If your baby is on the larger side, be like, “Well, dang. I'm going to have a good sleeper and likely a good eater.” Be happy about that and not shame yourself and be like, “Oh, I made a big baby,” because also, what I have seen in next babies, I've seen Women of Strength stop eating and restrict themselves of the nutrients that they need because they are so terrified. Julie: Scared that their baby will be too big. Meagan: Yes, they are so terrified of having too big of a baby that they are actually not giving themselves the nutrients. We know, especially with all of the Needed prenatal information that I've learned, that we are already malnourished as a society today not even just with taking supplements but in our daily food, our soil has changed. Our food has changed. Our nutrients have changed. We don't want to be withholding those nutrients and food because we are so scared of having too big of a baby. Do not let a provider– this is my “I don't know who needs to hear this”, but do not let a provider do that to you. Julie: Yeah, we all have stories that we can pull out of anything about these big babies. I was just at a birth last week. It was a scheduled induction at 37.5 weeks because of baby's size. They thought the baby was going to be almost 10 pounds at 37 weeks. Baby came out at 8 pounds, 3 ounces. Now, that is a little large for a 37-weeker, but my goodness, it wasn't a 10-pound baby. Okay? This is one of the harder things about being a birth photographer sometimes is that you are not involved in their decisions prenatally so I don't always have the opportunity to help them learn things. Some people just don't want to learn and that's totally fine, but I have another friend who just left an induction. It was a VBAC induction actually and it ended in a VBAC. It was great, but they suspected IUGR which is a small baby. Meagan: Intrauterine growth restriction by the way for whoever does not know that. Julie: Yes. They expected the baby to be super small and I forget. I think it was in the 39th week. They expected the baby to be smaller than 6 pounds. Baby was born at 7.5 pounds, just fine. Meagan: Perfect. Julie: These things are not accurate and if you are healthy, then I think it's important to know that your body can do this. Now, okay. Okay. I do want to add a little nuance there that all of these things that we are going to be talking about today there are situations where induction is necessary. With uncontrolled gestational diabetes, for example, your baby might be bigger. But what I've found most often with gestational diabetes is that we put these women on really restrictive diets and we tell them to be careful about what they eat and to exercise and all of these things. I find that my gestational diabetes clients usually end up having babies that are a little bit smaller than average because of all the restrictions we put on them like you were just talking about. So I just want to add a little nuance there that there are going to be some exceptions to what we are talking about. What we have a problem with here at The VBAC Link is when people take those 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 situations where extra help is needed and blanket-apply it to 100% of the people. That's what we're trying to combat here. Meagan: Yeah. Absolutely. Julie: All right, Meagan. What you've got? “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Meagan: I don't know who needs to hear this, but it's always okay to say no. Julie: Yes! Meagan: Always. If you are having someone and it doesn't even need to be a provider, anybody who is telling you what you are going to do and you are not feeling good about that decision, say no. That is okay. I was in another VBAC group during my own VBAC after two C-sections. I was in multiple VBAC groups. I was in a group and there was someone that wrote into their comment. They said, “My provider told me that I could not be induced. I could not do this. I could not do that,” and these things. Did it just irk you? I know you saw it, Julie. Did that just irk you, that comment? Julie: Yeah. It irks me because why do we as doulas, birth photographers, and patients have to be the ones to show our providers what the evidence says? Why do we? Shouldn't they be the ones practicing that evidence-based care? Shouldn't they? Oh, here's my radical acceptance coming in, speaking of radical acceptance. I need to work on radical acceptance of the system, I think. But why? I don't want to accept it. I want to change it. So there's part 3 coming out soon. How to change it. Meagan: Part 3 of radical acceptance. How to find radical acceptance through the system. This is the thing. We talked about this, I think, even before we pushed play but a provider or someone who wants to control you in this situation that you are going to be in– your birth. This is someone who wants to control your birth and is telling you what you are or are not going to do or what they are going to do to you.I'm hearing providers saying, “I'm going to strip your membranes at your next visit.” No. No. That is not how it works. Julie: Or they walk into the room while you are laboring, “Okay, we are going to break your water now.” What?Meagan: It is okay to say no. It is okay and I know that it is hard. I know. I have been there. I have been there just in life in general where I'm in a situation and I'm like, “Oh, I just don't want to cause contention and is it really that big of a deal? Maybe I should just say yes.” No. If your gut– and you'll know. If someone is coming in like Julie said and is saying, “We're going to break your water now,” and you're like, “Ugh,” immediately, that is your intuition saying no. Julie: No. Meagan: It is okay to say no. It is okay for you to say, “I do not want a cervical exam right now. I had one two hours ago. Not much has changed. I'm good, thanks.” It's okay. Women of Strength, please, please, please. This is how we change the system. We have to be strong and we have to stand up for ourselves. We do and it's stupid that we have to bring the evidence to the table, but we have to say no. We have to stop letting the system or the world, the world, railroad us especially when it's to our own body. We would never go down the street to the gas station and walk in and tell someone in that store what we're doing to them. Never. Would you? I would never. Maybe some would. Julie: I need you to drop those prices of the gas for me. Meagan: Yeah, right now because I'm about to pump my gas. I need you to drop it down 50 cents cheaper. You guys, no. We should not, just because we are in birth and just because we are in labor and just because we have a provider that went to a heck of a lot more school than us, right? I'll give them that. They went to a heck of a lot of school. I've never gone to medical school. It is not okay for them to tell us what you are or are not going to do. Okay, that's my rant. Julie: Oh, I've got one that I just came up with. Meagan: Okay. “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Julie: I don't know who needs to hear this, but you can gain information from Google– accurate and good legitimate information from Google that is similar to information that other people are getting through school. Oh ho, ho, ho. Meagan: Oh ho, ho, ho. Julie: Yeah, take that. This is going to be a little spicy one here. I hate it. I hate it– okay you've seen this sign. I know everyone has seen them before or little bugs that are like, “Don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree,” then be like, “Why the heck not?” If it's so easy to pull something up on a Google search, then why should I trust your medical degree then? Okay, that's a little extreme, but what I'm trying to say here is that we have access to the largest collective database of information to ever exist in the history of the world, right? We can literally sit on our computer and order dinner, put in a grocery order, and have it delivered to our house in an hour. We can find information on anything we want to know from legit, credible sources. Right? I could find out how to build an electric outlet into my fireplace above. That's my project right now. I need an outlet on my fireplace.Meagan: YouTube University. Julie: Exactly. Now, is there a lot of misinformation out there? Sure. But listen, if you know how to find credible sources like Google Scholar, Google Scholar legit has studies and sources and references that university databases pull from. There is accurate information and studies available at our fingertips, so why? The same studies that people are accessing at their universities towards their medical degrees are at our fingertips so I hate when people say, “Don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree.” Yes, are medical degrees valuable? Incredibly, especially when you can collectively put pieces of information and everything like that together. I feel like there is lots of worth there as well, but when we are talking about individuals, you know your body better than any provider with any level of medical degree is going to know your body. You know it better. Your intuition will guide you better than any provider with any medical degree. I know I'm going to get a lot of cringes right now by talking about this, but your Google search is worth a lot when it's pulled from a credible source so I hate when people say. That's one thing I can't. I usually scroll past the trolls and comments on Facebook now. I just don't let it be worth my time. I have radically accepted that there are trolls and it's fine and I'm going to live my life, but when I see someone using those words, “Don't confuse your Google search with my medical degree,” that is when I'm going to get on there and say, “Why? Why discount these billions and billions and billions of research articles and things like that that we have access to?” Meagan: I think that's one of the big passions between why Julie and I created The VBAC Link Parent Course and Doula Course because we wanted you to be able to find that information in one spot. It is confusing and it is overwhelming. Those providers, yeah. There are some BS things out there on the internet. It's really hard to decipher. Julie: Like the ARRIVE trial, right? Meagan: Yes. I think we have three pages of studies and citations and all of these things in our VBAC manual and in our VBAC course so you can take that and take it to your provider and say, “This is what I have found. This is the evidence. Can we have a discussion about this?” Women of Strength, it is okay to have a conversation with your provider. You can ask questions. A lot of the time, you walk in and they are like, “Hey, do you have any questions?” You're like, “Maybe. Should I have any questions?” You should be encouraging these conversations with your provider. It's going to help you get to know them. It's going to help you guys have a better understanding of each other and you're going to be able to learn about these studies. Julie: I want to cut in here for just a minute before you change gears. I know that when we were putting our course together, this was something that was super important to me and Meagan. You don't have to take our word for it. I remember uploading lots of studies, the pdf versions of studies and bulletins, and things like that into the course because we wanted you to be able to go and dig deeper on the parts that you wanted to dig deeper from right from these credible sources. I love when I can find a Cochrane review because a Cochrane review is a review of several studies studying the same thing so you can just gather so much more information. We have a Cochrane review in there. We have links to everything. That's why we are so careful to be so meticulous and cite our sources and where we found this information so that you can go on your own journey to the other parts that resonate with you a little bit more. Meagan: Absolutely. Okay, well we are wrapping up. Is there anything else, Julie, that you are like, “I've got to let these guys know”?“I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Julie: Yeah, I think one more thing without having to really expound on it too much. I don't know who needs to hear this, but sometimes trusting and believing your body doesn't work. I don't know how to say that the right way. Maybe I'm going to expound on it. I loved this affirmation so much because I used it on my home birth and my first VBAC. It was like, “I trust my body to birth my body,” and things like that. I had a lot of trust, but I feel like reframing it to, “I trust my body to know what to do,” is better because what happens when some emergency comes up and your body doesn't push it out? What happens when you have a traumatic pelvic floor injury and your pelvis really doesn't know how to push out a baby? I mean, what happens if your baby's heart starts tanking and baby has to come out right now? That's not your body failing you. I feel like sometimes that's what sets people up for failure. They believe so much in their body, but sometimes emergencies happen. There is some nuance there, so yes. Trust your body, but trust it to guide you on the right journey. Sometimes it sets us up for trauma afterward. You'll be like, “Oh my gosh, my body is broken. How come trusting my body didn't work?” I feel like trusting your body is a big part of it, but trusting your body to guide you on the right journey for a nice, healthy delivery is more important than trusting your body to be able to push a baby out. I don't know. What do you say to that, Meagan? Meagan: Yeah. I love that. That, I think, is where a lot of postpartum issues come because we were like, “But, I knew that I could do this.” It's not that you couldn't, it's just that something else happened. Right? Julie: The circumstance. Meagan: Yep. The circumstances changed and that's hard. That's hard, yeah. I love that. I love that you said that. “I Don't Know Who Needs to Hear This, But…”Finally, last but not least, I don't know who needs to hear this, but you are amazing. You are a Woman of Strength. You are capable of doing more than you even know. Than you even know. I truly believe that. I think through life and experiences, especially when things are hard, it feels like you can be at a loss, like you are alone, and like you couldn't possibly do these things, right? But Women of Strength, VBAC is possible. VBAC after multiple Cesareans– possible. VBAC with twins, VBAC with big baby, VBAC with diagnosed small pelvis, VBAC with medical induction needed, VBAC is possible. If you don't want to have a VBAC, that's my final, final. If you don't want one, that's okay. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: That is okay. Vaginal birth is not always desired and that's okay. But you need to learn. You need to find the information and that is what these stories are here for. That is what Julie and I are here for and other birth professionals here that we have on this podcast. That is what the course is for. That is what the community is for, for you to learn, for you to grow, and for you to know that when you are told some of these things, they are necessarily true. Okay. Julie: I love that, yes. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Scott, Giant Mike, and Novak talk about the second week of the playoff games which were much more competitive to Super Blowout Weekend. We'll also talk about windows closing on a couple of franchises and how they move forward and we'll break down the Championship Games and give Novak his due for correctly predicting the exact score for the Ravens game last weekWe also will never forget Pet Peeves and we'll tackle a very good question from a listener. Download our podcast at Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1358293Or wherever you get your podcasts from. We are also now available on YouTube. Search for Three Angry Giants fans and subscribe to our channel. 

In this episode, we are joined by a special guest. Stephanie Chavez, who fights February 10th, against Haley Pasion as a part of a card put on by CBN Promotions.We also talk about the recent ProBox TV card as well as Natasha Jonas versus Mikaela Mayer. #jonasmayer The ProBox TV bouts we will highlight are mainly Luis Feliciano vs. Mykquan Williams, and Freudis Rojas vs. Cristian Baez.Preview of the coming weekWe finish the show off with a conversation around the upcoming Golden Boy Promotions fight between Jaime Munguia and John Ryder. If Munguia wins does he get Canelo? #MunguiaRyder #MunguiaCaneloOther fighters featured on the DAZN telecast are Oscar Collazo, Darius Fulghum, and Gabriela Fundora.Tuesday in Japan we have an early morning card featuring two great fights on ESPN+Kenshiro Teraji vs. Carlos Canizales and Artem Dalakian vs. Seigo Yuri AkuiESPN+ will also have a Thursday night regional card that we talk about featuring Erik Bazinyan vs. Billi Facundo Godoy, Albert Ramirez vs. Artur Ziyatdinov, 10 rounds, light heavyweights, Steve Claggett vs. Marcos Barraza, andMary Spencer vs. Sonya Dreiling.Timestamps0:00 Stephanie Chavez interview25:00 Natasha Jonas vs. Mikaela Mayer recap38:00 Kari's Artingstall and undercard highlights45:00 Kenshiro Teraji vs. Carlos Canizales 49:11 Artem Dalakian vs. Seigo Yuri Akui53:00 Erik Bazinyan, Albert Ramirez, Steve Claggett andMary Spencer54:49 Canelo vs Jermall Charlo59:00 Jaime Munguia vs. John Ryder, 12 rounds, super middleweights01:09:00 Oscar Collazo vs. Reyneris Gutierrez01:10:00 Darius Fulghum vs. Alantez Fox01:12:35 Gabriela Fundora vs. Christina Cruz01:14:38 David Picasso Romero01:15:50 Lewis Crocker vs. Jose Felix01:18:00 Cheavon Clarke, Paddy Donovan01:22:00 Mykquan Williams vs Luis Feliciano

Grace: “'If you are COVID-positive as the mother, you are not allowed to do skin-to-skin, you are not allowed to breastfeed your baby, and you are only allowed to hold your baby two times a day for 15 minutes.'”Meagan: "That's what they told you?"Grace: "That's what they did. That was their policy."Today's episode is a must-listen for everyone in the birthing community. We know 2020 was an especially tough year to give birth and Grace's first birth story shows exactly why. Grace unexpectedly tested positive for COVID upon arriving at the hospital for a recommended induction after providers were worried about her baby's size. She was immediately subject to the hospital's policies for that day. Grace felt like her birthing autonomy was slipping farther away with every intervention. She ultimately consented to a C-section for failure to progress. Her lowest point was watching a nurse feed her new baby a bottle in her hospital room while she felt perfectly fine and capable of doing it herself. Grace was a compliant and obedient patient, but her heart was broken.Though she went through so much, Grace's positivity and commitment to a redemptive second birth experience are so inspiring. Grace is sharing all of the warning signs she wishes she recognized before along with so many helpful VBAC preparation tips. While we wish Grace didn't have to go through what she did, we are SO very proud of her resilience and strength!Additional LinksThe VBAC Link Blog: 10+ Signs to Switch Your ProviderThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Find a Truly Supportive VBAC ProviderNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. I am bringing another VBAC to you for you today. I always do that. To you, for you. It is for you today. We have our friend, Grace, and she is actually from New York, right? Yes. Grace: Yes. Meagan: New York. Yes. That too, is something I want to start highlighting on the podcast because we have a lot of people being like, “Well, where are they from? I want that provider. How possible is it for me to get that provider?” She is from New York, everybody, so if you are from New York, definitely listen up extra sharp on this one. Yeah. She is going to share her traumatic C-section story and her healing VBAC. It just tickled me so much when she said in the beginning when we were chatting that this podcast truly helped her so much. It truly is so heartwarming to hear those things because this is exactly why I'm still doing this podcast. It is because I want everyone to have these stories, to be able to feel empowered, and to learn along the way because I think in addition to inspiring, these podcasts really, truly inform and educate. We can learn from other peoples' stories. We can be like, “Oh, I didn't even know that was a thing.” Even though birth is really the same, it's just the same concept. Our cervix gets to 10 centimeters. We get 100% effaced. Our baby comes out through our pelvis and we push a baby out, it's just treated so differently truly worldwide. That's what is kind of crazy to me still that we haven't caught up to evidence-based birth in every state or country and we do things so differently. I think that's something really cool too to learn where people are from so we can learn what birth looks like in that state or in that country. Review of the WeekWe are going to read a Review of the Week and then we are going to turn the time over to our cute friend, Grace, to share her stories. Grace: Yay. Meagan: This is from stephmeb and her title is “Positive Stories Inspire Birthing Women”. It says, “As a VBAC mama myself, I have to say that one of the things I drew strength the most from were the most positive birth stories. I wish this existed with my previous babies and cannot wait to listen and gain strength from the stories that we are blessed enough to have one another sharing.” It says, “What a beautiful thing to have and it all is in one place.” I love that she highlighted that. That is something that we love to do here at The VBAC Link. That's why we created it. We wanted you to have all of the things– the stories, the information, the education, the resources all in one place because I too, when I was going for my VBAC, had a hard time scrambling all over the place trying to find out the information. It says, “These ladies are really blessing and inspiring birthing women, VBAC or not.” I love that. Thank you so much. As always, we love your reviews. They truly make us smile. They keep us going. I even still to this day will get a review and send it over to Julie so she can see that her legacy is still carrying on today. So if you haven't left a review, we would love one. You can help us on Google if you just Google “The VBAC Link”. You can leave us a review there. It helps everyone out there looking for VBAC to find us, to find this podcast, and to hear these amazing stories. Or on Apple Podcasts or you can even email us. Thank you so much for your review. Grace's Stories Meagan: Okay, Grace. Before we were talking, we talked about not the best C-section experience. Grace: Horrible. It was horrible. Meagan: We talked about being COVID-positive. That was a really hard time. We are still having COVID. COVID is not going away, so I think this is also a really good thing to hear about what things to do or what things to know if you are COVID-positive. Fortunately, the hospital system has changed substantially since then. I was probably one of the most angry people that I have ever been. I was a very angry person during COVID watching what was happening to my clients and what was being told to my clients. It was heartbreaking to see and I can't imagine going through that. So if you are a COVID mama birther whether you had COVID or not, just know I am sending you so much love because I know you went through hell a lot of the time. And then you had a redemptive VBAC. I am going to turn the time over to you to share with the listeners your stories. Grace: Awesome, yeah. Going back, since my first birth which was a C-section, my first is three and a half. It's been crazy trying to go over what happened before I started recording with you just so I had all of my points down. I started to cry at one point just because it was so traumatic. I don't know if other women have gotten as traumatized as I have, but I'm sure some have because it just was terrible. So maybe that's why it's good I have everything written down. I don't know where I should start because it's just so much. So again, I was COVID-positive. This was 2020 and this was right when COVID started becoming so serious that they shut everything down. So March and April 2020, I had to start working from home. At that point, I was 6 or 7 months pregnant with my first baby. I didn't think anything of it. COVID at the time was scary, but because of my age– and I didn't have any other conditions. I wasn't a diabetic or anything where COVID can be really scary. Other than that, we were just isolating the way we were supposed to. I am a teacher and we didn't have to go to work so that was actually kind of nice. I got to work from home. I went on really long walks and just enjoyed the end of my pregnancy. Nothing was phasing me. I had a regular OB. I picked this OB. Why did I pick this OB? I think it was that I wanted to give birth at this hospital that when I was picking hospitals in my area, I was told that this hospital has the best NICU. I'm like, “Okay.” I had no reason to think my baby should need a NICU, but when you are picking, you're like, “What are the pros and cons?” I picked that one and I went with the OB practice that was connected with that one. It was, I think, private. There were a lot of providers in that practice. A few people did say, “Just so you know, a lot of people have C-sections there.” I already knew two women who went there and both had C-sections. Warning sign number one, if you are hearing people say that a particular provider or practice is likely to give you a C-section, just be aware of that. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Grace: I didn't listen to that. So probably in mid-April, I started losing my sense of smell. Immediately, I'm like, “I might have COVID.” My husband and I about a few weeks earlier than that did have five days where we didn't feel great. We were tired. We were run down. We kept thinking, “Maybe it's COVID,” but our symptoms were super mild. No fever, no difficulty breathing. And remember, in early 2020, everybody was petrified of COVID and expecting it to be this super terrible thing. You're going to go on a respirator and all of these things. We had that one week. We weren't feeling great and then mid-April which was a few weeks after that, I lost my sense of smell so I was like, “Crap. I think I might have COVID.” I hope I can say that. Meagan: Yeah, you can. I just said “hell” so “crap” is good. Grace: I called my OB and I called a few other people. I said, “I don't know what to do. I lost my sense of smell. I feel fine.” I felt fine. They were like, “Okay. Isolate for two weeks. Let us know how you are doing.” We were. We weren't going anywhere. We were just working from home. I would go out with my mask and my gloves. We did all of the things then, but we didn't really go to work or anything. So then those few months go by. This is something I didn't want to forget to mention. Even at 20 weeks of my pregnancy, almost every appointment that I went to whether it was a checkup or a sonogram, they started saying, “Your baby is very big. It's big. He's going to be–” Not that they would give me a weight, but they were like, “He's going to be a big baby. He's going to be a big baby.” He was a boy, so I was big in the front. I was gaining weight which was concerning me. Meagan: Also normal to gain weight. Grace: Right. Totally normal, but when they started saying that so early, and then at the time, my sister had her first and her son was, I want to say 8 pounds, something. She really struggled to get him out. I'm not going to tell her story, but the things she had to go through to get him out were tough. She didn't have a C-section, but when I started hearing, “Oh, he's big,” it started making me concerned like, “I hope I can get him out.” Again, another foreshadowing that you're not seeing the right people because they shouldn't be saying that to you. They should just be letting the baby get where it needs to get and letting you know that everything is going to be fine. So I'm going through isolation. Time goes by and I'm getting into my third trimester. As we all know, women who have been pregnant, when you get to the end, you start to lose your mind. You start to get very vulnerable. You start to be like, “Please get this baby out of me.” By that point, I was rotating OBs so I had met everyone because you don't know which OB you're going to get. So I went to this one OB and he was the main OB of a girlfriend. She would only want to see him. He did make a comment that was bad bedside manner and it should have been an indicator that this guy was not looking out for you. He said, “Oh, you're having a boy? We don't like when you ladies have boys.” Meagan: Oh, whoa. Grace: Yeah, he said that to me. I giggled out of awkwardness, but after leaving, I was like, “Who says that to somebody?”Meagan: Yeah, I don't like that. I don't like that at all. Grace: I didn't like it either. I think that was the first time I had seen him. I only had seen him twice during my whole pregnancy and then the last time was before I got admitted to the hospital. It was at 40 weeks. I think I went in to see them and he goes, “Okay, again. Your baby is really big. Let's give it a few more days and then we'll schedule an induction for you.” You know, at the end of your pregnancy, you're like, “Yeah, get it out.” Meagan: Vulnerable, yeah. Grace: Vulnerable. And because my sister had gotten induced that January, inducing didn't seem like any kind of fearful thing to me. I had heard stories of women getting induced and getting a C-section, but I just kept thinking, “I'm full term. I'm healthy. There's nothing wrong.” Again, I didn't want my baby to get too big. They kept putting that thought in my head. They scheduled my induction and right when I told my mom, my mom had five kids all natural. She never had any chemicals put in her body every. When I told my mom they scheduled my induction, she flipped out. She was like, “No!” Another warning sign for me that I should have listened to. “Don't do the Pitocin. Don't do it. It's not good for you. You don't need it. Your labor is going to be really hard. It's going to be really long.” She was telling me, “Don't. This is a terrible decision.” “You know,” I'm like, “But they're telling me that this baby is going to get too big. I don't want it to get any bigger. I don't want to go too far.” Meagan: It's scary.Grace: And it's scary. They do say my risk goes up once you go past the 40 weeks and all of these things. But I did it anyway. I go to the induction. We get to the hospital. They're like, “Oh, you have to do a COVID test when you get there.” I thought it was a good thing. I'm like, “Oh, good. They're making sure the COVID people are separate. It's such a good thing.” No thought in my mind that I would ever be positive. I felt perfectly fine. We were keeping ourselves in the house, wearing the masks and doing all of the things. They do the test. Meanwhile, my husband and I are sharing a water bottle in the room. Then they were taking a really long time to get back in the room. I remember thinking, “That's not good. Where are these people? We took the test at least 30 minutes ago and these tests don't take that long.” They come back in full get-up, all three– the OB and the two nurses– full get-up of the gown and everything. Immediately, my heart sank. They're like, “So it turns out that you are COVID-positive. Your husband is COVID-negative so he can stay.” If he was COVID-positive, he would have had to go home. Yes. I'm hearing this. I'm starting to freak out. Remember, I'm a first-time mom. I'm already petrified of giving birth in general, so hearing that, I'm like, “Oh my god. Oh my god.” Then they told us that the policy that day– because the policy with COVID patients was changing every day. They were like, “So if you are COVID-positive as the mother, you are not allowed to do skin-to-skin and you are not allowed to breastfeed your baby, and you are only allowed to hold your baby two times a day for 15 minutes.” Meagan: Shut up. That's what they told you? Grace: That's what they did. That was their policy. Meagan: No. See? This is why I was the angriest doula in my life. It was the angriest time I have ever been because of this stuff. That doesn't even make sense. Grace: It made no sense especially because I'm thinking, “I'm bringing the baby home with me.” The baby is going to be 100%. I'm going to nurse this baby. I'm going to have this baby on me.” If I was coughing and had a fever and a runny nose and all of these horrible, contagious symptoms, obviously, it's like, “Yeah. I shouldn't maybe hold my baby. I don't want to get my baby sick.” At that time, COVID was scary, so it's like, “Okay, if I am this COVID-positive, deathly-looking patient, fine. I get it. Baby's safety first,” but I was fine. I said I was sharing germs with my husband who was negative. I kept saying, “Please retest. Please? Clearly, these tests are wrong.” I actually did all of this research that the COVID-positive gene or swab or whatever it is in you will stay in you for months and I was pregnant. My immune system was not what it normally is. Meagan: Well, and you were pregnant meaning you were sick. You had the antibiotics. Guess who has the antibiotics? Baby is inside of you. I don't actually know the evidence, so I can't say that there is no way, but in my head, it doesn't connect. There's a disconnect there. How did baby not– anyway. You were the same human– I mean, human in human during that time. Grace: Yeah, like you said, not only could I not do the skin-to-skin, but neither could my husband which all of the antibodies and all of the healthy things, my baby really didn't get any human skin touch until he got home which was three days later. Meagan: I'm so sorry. Grace: Yeah. I mean, I know he's fine, but there are these things. Now he's three and a half, when he has sensory issues or anything, I always go back to how his birth was horrible. Obviously, there's more. So that hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm just devastated and I'm calling all of my family. I can't see any family. No one can come to the hospital and I'm just crying. Already, it's like the downhill is starting. So that happened. I have to just– over the few hours that I'm there getting everything set up, I have to come to terms with, “I can't have skin-to-skin. I can't nurse. I don't know how I'm going to handle that.” Still thinking about that makes me really upset. Meagan: Even the nursing too, those are good antibodies and strong. That's what helps our babies. Grace: Yeah. I know. It's completely backward. The OB that was there was actually no one I had met before. She really didn't seem concerned. She was totally– what's the word– I use this when it comes to these healthcare workers in the hospitals. They are desensitized. That's the word. They were desensitized to my reaction and my husband's and all of it. They were just like, “Yep. This is how it is. Whatever.” Anyway, they get us in the room. We had to be locked in the room. Anytime another nurse came in or whatever, we had to put a mask on. Meanwhile, every time they came in a room, it was the full getup so obviously, I was already a patient that they didn't want there. That was how you kind of felt. The nurses weren't nasty or anything, but they gave you the vibe of, “Oh, great. She's hitting the button. We gotta go help the girl with the whole getup.” You know? I know I'm not the only COVID-positive one there, but you don't want to feel that. You don't want to feel like that type of patient. So you know, they started me on Pitocin. We're trying to get through it. We're watching TV. The contractions weren't too bad. I was getting through it. I'm moving around like crazy. The first nurse I had made a joke. She said, “I've never seen a pregnant woman move around as much as you.” I was trying so hard to get contractions going. Meagan: Movement is good. We should be moving around in labor. Grace: 100%. I mean, I had to do it in my room. I couldn't go anywhere which was dumb, but I'm doing all I can do. Hours are going by. Again, Pitocin is slow to go. I think after, I'd say maybe 10 hours of it, I go, “I am so tired and I'm not really progressing.” I think I was only 2 centimeters after 10 hours. I'm like, “I am so tired.” I was feeling contractions at that point that was enough that I needed a break. This is another warning sign that I should have said no to. I was only 2 centimeters. She comes in and maybe it wasn't 10 hours yet. Maybe it was 8 hours. She comes in. She checks me. She's like, “Yeah.” I'm only 2 centimeters. She suggested to break my water. She said, “Yeah. That'll get things going.” I'm like, “Oh, great. Break my water. Totally. Do it.” Now, I shouldn't have done that. I had read books and I had learned things, but again, you don't even– it all goes out of your mind when you are trying to have a baby and get from A to B. You're uncomfortable and you don't have support around you and all of the things. Already, my vulnerability was so high because of COVID and the fact that I couldn't hold the baby. At that point, I said, “Great. Break my water.” 2 centimeters? Who does that? Crazy. What was I thinking?Meagan: You're not alone. You're not crazy because you weren't in the space to make a “better informed” decision. You were being told by your medical staff that this is what could help so you are not crazy. Offer yourself some grace, but yeah. It's just one of those things that we take as a learning experience and a nugget for next time. Grace: Yes. That's what I think is upsetting. She knew that. My OB knew that. She wasn't technically who I would consider my OB to be because the one woman I was seeing each time, I don't think would have done that to me. Meagan: The attending OB. Grace: Exactly. It's like whoever you get in that Russian Roulette lottery of that day. She didn't even know me. She clearly didn't care about me. Oh, and she also made a horrible comment to me that day. I don't remember if it was before or after she broke my water. I think it was after. She breaks my water. Contractions are going again and they are way more intense. At that point, so much time had gone by that I was exhausted. It was maybe 10 hours. I don't totally remember exactly, but I think it was 10 hours that I spent. I said, “Let me get an epidural because I can't take it anymore. I need sleep.”After I got the epidural, I was in bed and I feel like either the next morning or maybe it was the night right before I went to sleep, I was crying to her. I said, “I'm really upset. Is there anything we can do? I would really like skin-to-skin with my baby.” I said, “Wrap me in a garbage bag. I don't care. I really hate that I can't have that with the baby.” She looked at me and she said, “Well, you don't want to give your baby COVID.” I couldn't believe she said that to me. I was crying already. I'm like, “Of course not.” It made me cry more. How could you put that out there and look at me right now? If it was you and it was your baby, how would you feel that it got taken away from you and I felt perfectly fine? I'm like, “Obviously, it's not me. My husband just took a test and he was negative.” For her to say that to me, I didn't want her back in my room again. So the epidural came and I was under the impression– again, looking at my sister's birth– that with the epidural, I would go to sleep. I'd wake up at 9 centimeters and I wouldn't even feel a thing. I didn't know. Again, because my sister did something similar. I don't think she woke up super dilated, but she definitely progressed after she had gotten her epidural, so I was like, “You know what? Maybe that's what I need.” And my water was already broken. I get my epidural. I go to sleep. I get some rest and then the next morning, the OB comes in and I'm relaxed. I'm calm. She checks me and I'm only 3.5 centimeters. I barely moved. It was very disappointing. I couldn't even handle it. I'm like, “Okay. Will I have more time? There is more time now. It's okay. It's okay.” But then, yeah. No. I didn't progress again. This is another warning sign. The OB comes in around a quarter to 4:00 and I remember hearing this on other podcast episodes that it's that 5:30 PM C-section time, right? Meagan: It does happen.Grace: It's before the end of the day. I mean, listen. Maybe it was coincidental, but given the fact that she comes in. She checks me. She's like, “Listen, you don't have much more time because you broke your water however many hours ago.” I don't remember the amount of hours after you break your water. You probably know. I don't remember. Meagan: Well, there's a lot of other factors than just the time. It's like, “Are we having signs of an infection? How is baby doing? How is mom doing? Are we making change in other areas?” You know? So after 6 hours of getting in labor, 6 hours after waters have been broken with no progress, they will start discussing things but it doesn't always have to be a C-section. Grace: Oh, so she definitely gave me a lot of time. She gave me more than 6 hours, but I wasn't progressing at all. I don't really know. I will be honest that my timeline will be a little funky because of how long ago it was. This I do remember because of the time he was born. He was born at 4– oh my gosh. I should know the exact time. I think it was 4:36 or something like that. Meagan: Whoa. Really fast after. Grace: That's just it, right? She comes in. “You're not progressing. We really don't have much more time before we're going to have to give you a C-section. Otherwise, the safety of the baby is going to be at risk.” Now that she says that, I'm freaking out, right? Meagan: Of course. Grace: I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” You know what? A lot of women I had spoken to before said that C-sections are no big deal. It's fine. Don't be afraid of them. They're fine. At that point, I said, “You know? I'm already going through hell right now. Let's just do it. Let's just get the baby out.” It's so crazy how they are so slow to do so many things, but the moment I sign that form, nope. The operating room is ready to go. The team is ready to go. It's within seconds. They are so ready to get you on that operating table. It's almost like they want to get you out of the door. She wants to get out of the door. We all know that C-sections are going to bill your insurance way more than if you just had the baby naturally. I hate to think that is how a provider would think, but given the time and given everything that would happen, it's like, what else am I going to think now? It's not clear, but I feel like that was a piece of it. They were just trying to get me in and out. Oh, on the operating table, she yelled out, “Just know that this patient is COVID-positive!” to the whole staff. I'm just the diseased person that is in the room. I was walking around like a perfectly healthy person. It was just so awful. So they begin the C-section. I hope I'm not sharing too much and talking about things that don't have meaning, but I guess I have to live through it a little bit. Meagan: This has meaning. You're sharing them. We can feel it. Yeah. Grace: Okay. Now, at that point, during the C-section, you're on a lot of pain meds. I come out of the operating room. Everything is fine. I'm not having any issues. I didn't throw up or anything. All I wanted was to see and hold my baby. I heard the baby cry. My husband got to see the baby. No one got to hold the baby just yet. We'd get in the room. They immediately put the baby, I think, in the isolette. This is at the time where if you were COVID-positive, the baby could be in the room with you, an isolette I think? Or an isolette? Is that what it's called? Meagan: Like another room? I don't know. Grace: You know for NICU babies, they're in this– Meagan: Oh yeah, I do know what you are talking about. I don't know what it's called actually. Grace: I think maybe it's called an isolate and that's what the rule was. When you are COVID-positive, your baby would stay in the isolette. You couldn't hold your baby unless it was those two times during the day for 15 minutes. He went into that. My husband came in. I think that the attending nurse I had at that time–Meagan: Your husband wasn't with you in the C-section?Grace: No, no, no. He was. I'm in a bed. I'm just trying to go through it again in my head. Meagan: No, you're fine. Grace: So the whole time, I kept thinking, “I just want to hold him. Please just let me hold him. I won't do skin-to-skin. I'll follow all of your rules, whatever. Just let me hold him. It's my brand new baby.” Again, I'm a first-time mom. I do think regardless if you are or not, I totally get it. It could be your fourth baby and you would still feel that way. When my mom had my sister who was her second, she was like, “The nursery can have her. I need rest.” There is a sense of, “I've been there. I've done that. I don't necessarily have that need to hold them in that moment,” but as a first-time mom, seeing my first baby, that was all I wanted in the world was just to hold the baby. So this one nurse comes in. I don't know. I think she was just a post-delivery nurse and she was very tough. I was like, “Please, can I hold him now?” She was like, “You need to wash your hands. You are COVID-positive.” Nasty. I'm like, “Okay, fine.” I can't move becaus I just had surgery. They bring me over this bucket of soap and everything. I'm washing my hands and I'm just constantly looking at him trying to get him. She yelled at me. She was like, “You're not washing your hands enough.” She was like, “I'm an ER nurse during COVID. You have to take this seriously,” just belating me. It was so horrible. But they did finally let me hold him. It was great, but it was obviously short-lived. Then after that, they took him. The nurse had to feed him a bottle. I wanted to breastfeed. I didn't want to give him any formula. I remember just seeing her sitting there with him thinking– I'm so sorry– that I failed. My body failed. This woman has to feed my baby for me and I'm right here. I can do it. I couldn't even give him a bottle. I just felt like such a failure at that moment. I did not think I was going to start crying, but just to see a stranger do that just really upset me. That was pretty much that. Right then, I was there and then that nurse would come and feed him every 15 minutes. You know, it's a baby. You have to feed them every 30 minutes or something. But then that moment when she first did it, I thought I was such a failure. Meagan: Not a failure. Grace: I know. My husband had no idea what was going on. They never really do. He was very much like, “We have to listen to the hospital.” When they would leave the room essentially, I was like, “Give me the baby. Let me just hold him. What are they going to do? There are no cameras. Even if there were, what are they going to do? Kick me out? I just got cut open.” Honestly, I was so ready to break those rules. The baby was going to be right there. My husband was like, “They could walk in. You could get in so much trouble.” He didn't know what could happen so we had to just follow the rules. He got to hold the baby, but every time he'd pick up the baby, he had to put on a new thing of gloves, a mask, and a gown, and he ended up having to feed the baby because he was allowed to. That started to drive him crazy because he was also on no sleep. If you go back from when we got to the hospital to when we had the C-section, it had already been two days of time where we were just there. He wasn't really getting the best of sleep. He has had so much going on, so now he has to care for this newborn baby. He's never held a baby in his life. That ended up being what was going on at that point. Now at this point, the epidural was still in me and I wasn't in any kind of crazy pain. Then the nurse comes in. She's a new nurse and was actually very nice. She goes, “Listen, I have a few other pills.” I can't remember what they are but then she goes, “I have oxycodone for the pain.” I was like, “I really don't want to take any opiates because I'm going to try to breastfeed when I get home and I am pumping. I don't want to have any opiates in my system.” I was saying this while the epidural was still in my system. She looked at me like, “Okay,” and I have a Motrin allergy. I can't take ibuprofen so all I was taking at the time was Tylenol. She gives me probably the Tylenol at that point. The epidural was still there. I'm like, “This will be fine. I'll just take Tylenol.” But it was a dumb thing to think. When that epidural wore off, I don't know how many hours later, I was in so much pain. I could barely talk. Motrin and Tylenol work together because some women don't take the opiate, but working together helps a lot. But when I wasn't getting Motrin, all I had was Tylenol. It just was so, so painful that she got to my room. I look at her. I go, “You need to get me the oxycodone right now. I can't move. I'm in serious, serious pain now.” So she gets it for me, but the thing is with pain– oh, I'm sorry my friend texted me– when you don't catch up to the pain and you have the pain meds in your system, you kind of can never stay on top of pain. Does that make sense? Meagan: Mhmm. Chasing it.Grace: You're chasing it. So even with the oxycodone in my system, the pain would finally subside, but then once it came back, it came back so bad that I just never felt okay anymore. I just constantly was uncomfortable and in pain. Those moments when the meds would wear off to get your new set of meds, I could barely talk. It was so intense. Then also when you get surgery, you get gas that radiates up and that was insanely painful. The night nurse ended up being late with the oxycodone at that point. It was 3:00 AM. My husband was sitting next to me. He couldn't even sleep because he was so worried about me because of that pain. I wasn't myself anymore. I don't know if other women with C-sections have gone through anything like that, but it was just really bad. He was sitting next to me. It was 3:00 AM and he was like, “I'm really worried I'm going to lose you.” I actually muttered, “I think I'm going to die.” That's how intense it was. She was probably 45 minutes late with the medication and again with pain meds, if it's not in your system, you feel everything. That made it even more intense and horrible on top of everything else– all of the emotion, the fact that I didn't even want a C-section, and it just kept spiraling into horribleness. I will say one positive good bit though that I look back on and I remember. The attending nurse that I had during the day of my C-section actually came in after and was so sweet. She did know that I wanted to breastfeed, so she was trying to get the colostrum to give to the baby. One thing my sister told me to do was she goes, “Make sure before you are planning on giving birth that you start eating lactation cookies and getting your supply to come in.” Because I had done that, when I showed up and she wanted to get colostrum, there was tons of it. He was in shock. He was so happy. He was a bit older, almost like you could tell he was old school. He was like, “I've never seen anything like this. This is amazing.” It made me feel like somebody had faith in me instead of some diseased, horrible person. That's what I felt the whole time. That was nice having that moment. But yeah, so then with the pain, that was starting to make the whole experience really bad. We ended up leaving a day early and even the day we left, the pediatrician made a point to me. He was telling me about the baby and things to do with the baby and everything. I go, “I'm so really worried. I'm COVID-positive. I don't want to get the baby sick. Everyone is making it like I'm going to make the baby sick and what should I do? Can I hold the baby? Can I do these things with the baby?” She looks at me and says, “Of course you can. You are going to take your baby home and you can nurse your baby. You're going to hold your baby.” She was like, “Wear a mask,” and was almost looking at me like, “This hospital is crazy. This policy is horrible,” but because this is the routine for them and they are desensitized to everything, I wasn't getting that from anyone else. It was just common. It made me really look back and say, “How stupid that they put me through this.” I don't even know. I think there were some COVID-positive mothers where their babies went in other rooms and they couldn't even see them at all. Meagan: Mhmm. Grace: I mean, I'm sure you've heard other horrible stories. So we go. We get to leave and my husband at that point had no sleep either. It was maybe three or four days that we had been there with no sleep. I had no sleep because I was in so much pain. We get home and my mom opens the door because she was waiting there for us to help us. My mother was really upset too. She was crying all night that I was going through that. She looked at me and was like, “Oh my god. What did they do to you?” I had dark circles under my eyes from being exhausted but also from crying. Meagan: Yeah. I was going to say, I'm sure that you instantly knew that you wanted a different experience next time. Grace: Oh my god, yeah. I wanted it different and you know, I have a beautiful, healthy baby so it's not like it was the worst experience it could have been, but it wasn't at all what I wanted or what I thought it would have been or that it really should have been. So many things went wrong and I take a lot of blame that I should have researched providers better. I should have researched the policies better. I didn't know, you know? You never think it's going to happen to you. You think everything's going to be fine. My one girlfriend, I think had placenta previa. Something like that, but she said, “I immediately knew I was having a C-section. There was no question there.” That's one thing. You have physical limitations where it is very dangerous. Okay. It's fine. You have a C-section. It's fine. But when you are put in a horrible hamster wheel of horribleness where they already know you are going to have a C-section and they don't even care, it's so long. And the COVID-positive on top of it was just really, really hard.My husband said, “Honestly, Grace, the C-section wouldn't have bothered you as much had you been able to actually hold your baby.” Yes, and all of that positive adrenaline and endorphins in your body probably would have helped you heal faster. So when I brought him home, we had to get him latched and that was a whole other hurdle, but I did. I had a lot of nursing issues with him because he had this torticollis. He had all of these issues, but I totally powered through and I still did it. But now with my daughter, I'm sharing her VBAC story, right? I'm sorry. I hope I'm not talking too much. With her, I had no issues. Nursed fine. She is a thriving, wonderful, beautiful baby and I totally believe that it is because of the birth with her and it went so differently that it is just so much better for me and it was better for her. It was better for my husband. It was better probably for my son too. That was my horrible, horrible C-section birth. Meagan: I'm so sorry. Grace: I think I covered everything. I'm sorry too. I keep talking. Yeah. It was horrible. I mean, looking back, I've learned so much and hopefully, other women can learn from it. I hope I covered all of those warning signs I want women to look out for. I don't know but hopefully I did, but yeah. My heart goes out to the COVID-positive mothers who went through something similar or worse. I can't even imagine. I do think that if you are positive and you are sick– if I were visibly ill, it's so different to me. My mindset would have been way different. I would have still been sad, but I wouldn't have felt like my autonomy was taken away from me. Meagan: Stripped. Grace: Yeah, stripped, which is much more where you feel like you are at their mercy. You don't feel like you have freedom at all and it's horrible. Meagan: Yeah. Grace: Yeah. So I get pregnant. My son at that point, I think, was about a year and four months. He wasn't 18 months just yet. I got pregnant with my daughter and again, I knew I definitely wanted a VBAC, however, I had known a lot of other women who wanted VBACs too, and still ended up getting a C-section. They would say, “Yeah, we are going to try for the VBAC, but if it doesn't work, you will have to have a C-section.” Every woman I spoke to who said that, ended up with one. As I was going through my pregnancy, I was trying to educate over time. I was like, “What is this that they are missing that I don't want to miss?” I did not want another C-section. I did not want to ever go through that pain unnecessarily again. Obviously, listen. C-sections save babies. I am not against them. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Grace: You know that and you know that in so many ways, they are super important, but for me, if I have a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby and I don't have anything going on that would require that other than I had a C-section prior, then I am going to do everything I can to not have another C-section. So I discovered The VBAC Link, I want to say it was further into my pregnancy. I want to say I was at least 5 months into my pregnancy. Meagan: Yeah. Grace: How many weeks would I have to be for that?Meagan: 20?Grace: Was it 20?Meagan: 20 weeks is about 5 months so probably a little over. Grace: It was a little over 20 weeks and I discovered The VBAC Link. I am like, “Okay, I will give this a thought.” I already found a midwife. I didn't want an OB and the midwife that I had, I really liked her. She had VBACs of her own. Meagan: Awesome. Grace: I was super adamant. I'm like, “I do not want another C-section.” She understood. Here's the thing, though with these providers and I liked her. I'm not trying to make it seem like she did anything wrong, but they don't educate women on what to do. There are so many things that women can do to get themselves in the best situation to have a nice, vaginal birth potentially not even needing medicine. They don't. I don't know if it's that they don't on purpose, but a midwife is not an OB. She's not going to give me a C-section, so why wouldn't she want to give all of the resources to her patients? I didn't even know what Spinning Babies was until I listened to your podcast, then I researched Spinning Babies and I used Spinning Babies. So anyways, I discovered you guys or you ladies and I started listening to you every day on the way to work and the stories were just so wonderful. I learned a lot. I learned that one of the big ones was to find a hospital that is more likely to support a VBAC and has a high success rate of a VBAC. Now, the hospital I picked, I was told it was a good one. It is a good hospital. Nothing specific about childbirth or anything. It was very close to me. I had known other people who had delivered there and it was fine, but I'm like, “You know what? Let's look at their success rate versus other ones.” Their success rate was 7%. Is that high or is that low? Meagan: That's low. 7% of their success rate of a VBAC, that's low. Grace: That's low. That's low. There was another hospital I heard about from someone who gave birth there and it was an hour away. Most women who gave birth there had the best experience. It's a hospital and then it had a birthing center connected to it. Because I was a VBAC, just birthing centers wouldn't have let me go there because if they needed an emergency C-section. That setup was great. I looked at their VBAC success rate and it was 22%. Meagan: Higher than 7. Grace: Now that you say that, it was probably still fairly low, but that was the highest I found. Meagan: Yeah. Grace: Yeah, and now I went ahead and listened to your podcast for a few months and I started getting scared. I was like, “I don't have a doula. I don't have a lot of information that a lot of these women had.” Now that I have it, I was already at that point, I want to say 7 months in my pregnancy. Not going by weeks just because I don't know why months make more sense to me. That's when I started becoming very much doing more research and being more actively aware of my birth and wanting to make sure that this birth goes better. I find this hospital. At that point, I go, “I'm going with this hospital and no one is going to stop me.” But because I was already so close, I was actually in my third trimester already and I told my– the way it works is I was very lucky. My provider was part of a bigger company. I'm not going to give out any names or anything unless should I? Meagan: If you have a supportive provider that you would suggest, I highly suggest giving the name because also, Women of Strength if you are listening, we have a provider list. We actually have that, so we will be adding this one to your list. But if you guys have a provider that you highly suggest as being VBAC-supportive especially if there are multiple Cesareans, please send us that at info@thevbaclink.com because we want to add them to our list. Grace: Okay. Okay, yeah. I definitely will. At the time, they were called CareMount near the area where I was, but they just got bought out by a new company called Optum. Meagan: Optum, okay. Grace: Most adults of my age remember them as CareMount because it was super recent that it changed. Optum was in my area and because they were big, they also had a practice up near this hospital. I called the practice up near the hospital and I said, “Listen. I've been going to midwives down by me, but you have all of my information because it's all the same system. I want to go to your office because I want to deliver at this hospital.” Can I say the name of the hospital? Meagan: Yeah. Grace: I can, right? It was Northern Dutchess. They are amazing. They have a birthing center. The staff there is incredible and yeah. I said, “That's what I want.” The immediately were like, “We don't take on patients so close to the end like this, but given that you are in the system, I guess it's okay.” I was going to say to them, “I don't care if it's allowed or not. You're going to help me give birth in your hospital.” I also was going to be like, “I don't want to see any OBs. I only want to see midwives.” They still had me see two OBs and it's actually fine because even their OBs were just better. They were more understanding. Believe it or not, the male OB was even more. I was scared to see the male. Nothing against men, but the fact that with my son it was a man and he made that comment to me, treating me, I don't know. They didn't give him any kind of nickname, but I think he was known for only really doing C-sections. I was so scared to have a man especially because by the time I saw him– so before I even get to that, they do the switch and at that point, again, I was listening to your podcast still and I'm like, “You know, I really should get a doula.” I'm in my 35th week or something. I'm like, “I need to get a doula. I need this birth to be what I want it to be.” I find a doula in my area. She is amazing. She said the same thing. She was like, “We're meeting pretty late, but it's okay.” She was super understanding. I told her about my whole horrible birth and she said, “You'd be surprised but that part is super common.” Not the COVID part, but the whole story. Meagan: The whole story, yeah. Yeah. Grace: Also, I think me being allergic to Motrin and that recovery being so– I hate to say it but traumatic for me because when you're in so much pain and you are already in so much emotional pain, it is just horrible. She was like, “Yep. It's a super common story. I'm not going to guarantee you a VBAC, but you're going to get through this birth. It's going to be beautiful. You're going to have a wonderful connection with your baby.” She said, “Don't worry about the COVID thing anymore. It's not at all what it was in 2020. Try to think of all of the positive things.” She introduced me to Spinning Babies. I started researching so much of my own and I was like, “Should I do all of the dates and tea and the stretching and the walking?” She goes, “Do all of it.” It's what they say. It's like an old wives' tale, but it's not going to hurt. Do all of it. Take a deep breath. I started to get almost obsessive at the time. I even made a joke to my provider at an appointment. I was like, “I'm sure it says in my file that I'm the crazy VBAC girl.” He laughed. He said, “It doesn't say that,” but I was very determined. Again, your podcast helped me so much because there were so many women who have gone through so many things and had to work even harder to get the providers that they wanted and get the support that they wanted. It's so important and it's so wonderful that you have it. So thank you. Meagan: Mhmm, yes. Thanks for being with us. Grace: So then, yeah. I changed my provider. I get the hospital. I get the doula and then I start those last, I want to say 5 weeks. I'm walking every day. I'm eating a disgusting amount of dates. I don't think I'll ever eat a date again. I'm sure you've heard that, but it's true. Doing the tea and I was doing these stretches I saw on YouTube every night. My husband was very supportive. He was a little scared for me. He was kind of like, “Oh my god. If this girl doesn't get her VBAC, what's going to happen in the world?” I was very intense about it and then, yeah. We just waited and waited. Toward the end, this part was scary for me. We also joined this Evidence-Based VBAC Facebook group and it was not– I can tell by your face. Yeah. Meagan: Ugh. Grace: It was not what I thought it was going to be. Meagan: No, unfortunately. Grace: Because I did this all kind of late, by the time I was up to 40 weeks, I went on that page maybe a week before or at 39 weeks. I started reading and I'm like, “Oh my god. Now I'm terrified to go into labor.” Note to listeners, please don't go on that Facebook page. Meagan: Join The VBAC Link Community. Grace: Yes, 100%. Meagan: Shameless plug right there. I think our community is just one of a kind. Grace: 100%. But the thing is at that point in time, to read any of that at 39 weeks put me into a fear mode. At 40 weeks, I started crying every day that I wasn't going into labor. I wanted to go into labor at 39 weeks, but that likelihood I think was very low because I was late with my son. I never even technically went into labor with my son. With my son, I was 40 weeks and 5 days when they induced me. So from 40 weeks on, again, because of reading those posts, I started really freaking out. I was crying. I was calling my doula every day. I'm like, “I'm not going into labor. I really don't want a uterine rupture. I'm scared.” This and that. She was so great. She just was like, “You need to relax. Everything is going to be fine.” She said, “If something is going to happen, it could have already happened. One of my best friends is a nurse and she actually was a nurse in an OB's office for a while. Every time I would go to talk to her, she would go, “You need to stop.” She would be like, “Anything could happen.” Meagan: Spiraling. Grace: Yeah, yeah. But it was good to have that. It was good to have somebody say, “Anything that could happen. You can't sit there and say that just because you have this thing which is unique to you that you want to have a VBAC doesn't mean that you're definitely going to have something happen. You could have a perfectly healthy pregnancy and everything would be fine and then something bad would happen. You can't worry about it. It's not in your hands right now. You need to just relax.” That was a tough part though, just going through that week and then I started getting really bad prodromal labor about a week after at 41 weeks. I started getting it really bad and I kept thinking, “Should I go to the hospital? Is this it? Can I get the baby out?” I was so excited and my doula every time would go, “No, no, no, no, no. You're not going anywhere near that hospital right now.” Thank God she said that. So then I think I had prodromal labor for about three days or four days or something. Then finally, on the final day, my mom was over and I was in so much pain just from all of the prodromal labor. I'm like, “Something is not right.” She looked at me and she was like, “You are in active labor. I can see your stomach contracting.” I'm like, “But I called. My doula said I shouldn't go. I don't know what to do.”I already lost my mucus plug a few days before that. I had never gone through anything like that. Nothing like that. Meagan: You're getting into labor though, yeah. Grace: Yeah, but my mom again, has five kids. She goes, “No, no. This is labor now. You really should go.” She even talked to my doula two nights before that because I thought that two nights before that I was going into labor and my doula was saying to my mom, “No, not yet. She's not ready yet.” I don't know how she knew that. At that point, I called my doula again. She said, “You know what? Your mom is probably right.” I was timing them. I don't remember what the times were, but they were so strong. I think my mom was like, “I don't even think it matters. This is labor now.” I get to the hospital and I was 100% effaced and 5 centimeters dilated. Something to start. Meagan: Yay! Getting ready to get into active labor right there. Turning that transition. Grace: Yes. He tells me that. I was COVID-negative. It was like the clouds were opening up. Things were falling into place. The only thing is and this is a totally okay thing. My doula had another birth that night so she couldn't go. I forgot to mention this. She already knew she was going to not be there. She actually called a backup doula and this was actually the morning before I went into the hospital. I called her. We had a nice conversation. She was like, “I will definitely be available.” I go, “I'm having a lot of prodromal labor. It's really uncomfortable. I'm tired.” I'm like, “I just don't know what to do. When should I go?” She was like, “Okay, at this point in pregnancy, it's totally normal. Why don't you just go on a two-hour walk?” What? Meagan: A two-hour walk? Grace: I was walking every day for two months. A two-hour walk? I'm struggling to sit. I'm like, “Okay.” She told me at 9 AM. I went on a two-hour walk and listen, I was at the hospital by 4:00 PM that day. She totally knew. She ended up coming and she was so sweet and amazing. I had never even met her before. I would totally recommend either doula if anyone is asking. If it means anything, their rates were nothing crazy. I listened to a bunch of doulas which again, I got from your podcast that you want to really interview your doulas and make sure you know your doulas. They were super reasonable and both were wonderful. That all fell into place. I was just starting to have my contractions. She was there to do all of the lunges together and all of the movements together. She put me in all of the right positions and I ended up not needing an epidural. Let me rephrase that. I ended up not having to require an epidural even though it was very, very painful. But it was a very welcomed pain. I was in labor for about 14 hours. It was a long, long day. I made a birth playlist which I did for my son too and I never got to really use it. One moment during labor, that particular experience was when the doula goes– this was around 6 centimeters, maybe 7 centimeters. She goes, “Why don't you go dance with your husband?” I had my birth list on and I think it was a Justin Timberlake and maybe Beyonce song. It was a very romantic, lovey dovey song. We were just standing there. The lights were off. We were dancing and it was just so beautiful. The nurse told me after. When you're in labor, you're not totally aware of your surroundings. She told me the next day after the baby was born and everything and she goes, “I almost started crying when I saw you and your husband standing there dancing.”Meagan: Such a precious moment. Grace: Both she and my doula I remember were kind of off to the side standing there. It was just so wonderful and yeah. She got me through labor and I had to push for a solid, I think, hour which was fine. It was really painful. At one point, I screamed, “I want someone to help me!” You know, it was really hard, but she was there. I give a lot to her. She did all of these things to help me feel comfortable and safe. I was with someone who was going to make sure I was going to be okay. Yeah. The midwife came and I loved the midwife. She was wonderful. I had met her before. She was very knowledgeable. She wasn't necessarily the most nurturing. She was much more like, “I've given birth to thousands of babies. I've done VBACs before. We've got this, no problem.” At one point, she came in and she was worried my contractions had slowed down, but right after she left, my doula was like, “All right, let's go. Get up. Ramp up the speed. We're going to do this. We'll put you on the peanut,” and all of the things because she knew I didn't want an epidural. I am curious about having the doula there if that is why they didn't push anything on me. They didn't push anything. Meagan: Good. Grace: Part of me is curious but I also think the hospital is known to not do that. My sister gave her second baby there and they didn't push anything on her. So now again, you want to go to a good hospital that takes care of you. Meagan: Yes, you do. Grace: She came out and how big was she? She was 7 pounds, 8 ounces. My son was 8 pounds, 5 ounces. He really wasn't even that big. Meagan: No. Grace: He could have come out. Meagan: He wasn't. Yeah. Grace: No. I actually forgot to mention that before. He wasn't even that big. They gave me all of that nonsense and yeah. Everything about her birth was wonderful. She went right on my breast. He latched not right away, but within 24 hours. He latched and was eating fine. It was wonderful. I didn't have to change rooms or anything. They let me stay in the same room. I got to get up and walk around. Yeah. It was exactly the experience that I had wanted. Meagan: Yeah. Grace: Yeah. Meagan: I'm so happy for you. I'm so happy that you could have that more healing, redemptive experience where you felt the love. You felt that connection. You had the people there for you. You felt safe. You weren't being pushed. You weren't having people rushing in like you were some scary alien. You weren't having these things that honestly doesn't help our cervix dilate. There are so many things from your first story where I'm like if we can create a special environment, a comfortable environment for us, then that is going to help us progress in labor. We know one of the number one reasons for a Cesarean is failure to progress and a lot of the time, it's situational. We did this and it's baby's position or something like that, but a lot of the time, I think it's truly the environment and what we've got going on and if we feel safe because our bodies are smart. If we don't feel safe and if we don't feel comfortable, we are not going to progress. We're not going to have those things and so yeah. I'm just so, so happy for you. I'd love to touch on a couple of signs when it is time to switch your provider or time to switch your location because I think it is one of the most daunting things to change your provider mid-pregnancy. It can be hard. Grace: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: And/or change your location. I changed my provider and my location at 24 weeks and it was emotional a little bit too. It was just like, “Oh, I hope it's okay. I don't want to hurt any feelings and this and that.” Anyway, just so much. We have some blogs on so many topics that we talked about today. But number one, I want to talk a little bit about some of those warning signs because like you said, you were like, “That was a warning sign. That was a warning sign. That was a warning sign,” but you weren't in that space. Sometimes that's how it goes. I had the same thing. I go, “Whoa. I should have switched.” One, I want you to know, Women of Strength, that it's okay to switch. 100%. We do have that provider list if you are looking for a provider in your area or you start hearing some of these signs and you're like, “Oh crap.” If one of those fits, email us at info@thevbaclink.com and remember VBAC is spelled V-B-A-C instead of V-B-A-C-K. Email us and our team will get you that list. Okay, so warning signs. Recommending a third-trimester ultrasound to check on the baby's size. When you go in for that 20-week ultrasound and they're like, “Oh, this baby is big.” Right there, that's a huge warning sign. I'm just going to say, if your doctor is talking about your baby being big in general, that's a red flag. That means that they are starting to doubt your ability. Their confidence in you is going down to get that baby out and they will probably push things like induction and all of those things, right? So talking about your placenta dying. They actually use these words. “Your placenta could die if you go past 40 weeks pregnant or past 41 weeks pregnant.” Not true. Not needed. You know? It's not. You don't need to have an induction just because you are 40 weeks. Your placenta is okay. Yeah. Making those one-off hand comments of, “Your baby is big. Your pelvis could be too small. You're looking big. You're really a petite person.” I don't like that. Refusing to let you go past 40 weeks. Refusing to induce at all. If your provider is completely refusing to induce you because you are a VBAC, they are not following evidence-based care. I cannot tell you that enough. We see it all the time in our community where it's like, “I can't be induced because I'm a VBAC.” False. False, false, false. False. Big F. False. Now, is induction ideal?Grace: No. Meagan: It could be less ideal. It is less ideal. Not even could be, it is. It is less ideal. But it is not impossible. If you are facing an induction or a C-section, do the research. Learn about it. Know that it is still possible and you will not just for sure rupture because you are induced with Pitocin. That's another myth out there. Overemphasizing the risk of uterine rupture. Telling you that you last time didn't have good success so you are unlikely to have good success this time, putting doubt there, and so much more. We actually have a blog about it. We are going to put it in the show notes today on 10 Signs it Might Be Time to Switch Your Provider. I also think there are some really good tips for preparation. You talked about that. You did the Spinning Babies. You ate dates until you literally probably couldn't eat any more or you couldn't stand the smell of them. You did all of these things. Preparing for birth. You got the doula. You found the location. You researched your area. You found your birthing location. You found your hospital and midwife. You found a VBAC doula. Even in the end of pregnancy, you can find a doula and if you didn't know, we have a resource online at vbaclink.com where you can find a doula that is actually VBAC-certified. They have taken our course. They understand all of the things about VBAC. They can help you find a VBAC-supportive provider. They can help you find that confidence. They can help you and see those moments of, “This is a really great time. Go dance with your husband. Let's release the oxytocin naturally,” or “This is prodromal labor. Maybe don't go to the hospital right now. This is what you can do instead.” Okay, you know? Those types of things. Mental– Grace: Get you off the ledge. Meagan: Yes, talk you off of the ledge. Mental preparation– preparing, we have the VBAC Link Course. We have the blogs. We have the stories. We have the communities. This is what this is for. Mental prep, finding the confidence, processing your op reports, and these things. Physical prep– doing those things. Eating the dates, drinking the tea, and making sure you have good nutrients like our favorite Needed. You're making sure that you are taking care of yourself nutritionally so that you can also prep in other ways and so many more. We're going to make sure to have that. We're going to have blogs and books and things to suggest at the bottom of the show notes. I think that this story although it did start off with a heartbreaking experience– I could see you. I could feel it. Your experience is hard. It's three and a half years ago and it's still with you. These experiences stay with us. I think that's where we owe it to ourselves to give us the best experience and to put us in the best situation possible. Sometimes, I think it's, “Oh, well a doula could be more expensive. Oh, taking a course is a lot,” but in the grand scheme of things, if we look back at our experiences, my first two C-sections and even with my second, I had educated pretty okay. I'd say okay, not great. If I had looked back and taken the course to help me know that information, if I would have hired the doula to help me feel not so backed in a corner, absolutely. Yeah. I would have paid that no matter what. Grace: Yeah. Money is of no value at that point. Meagan: It's of no value and it is. Money is a huge thing in this world, especially with the way our world is going. Money is a big deal, but in the end, you deserve it. You deserve to get those prenatal massages, to go to the chiropractor, and to get those prenatal vitamins that are going to truly help you. You deserve these things. Women of Strength, it's okay to spoil yourself for your birth. Grace: Right. Meagan: Recognize these things and get the tools we can so that in the end, even if it ends in a repeat Cesarean, it can hopefully be a more healing experience. You're going to know the things. You're going to know your options. You're going to know you did everything. I just think there is so much power in these two stories all along the way that you can

 Welcome back to the Award Travel 101 Podcast — from the original Facebook community created for miles and points enthusiasts. Angie, Allison, and Joe jump on the pod to share the 100K Member Celebration Winner, their newest cards, trip updates, and to bring you an Airing of (2023) Grievances! Get Thrifty Traveler Premium deal/award alerts sent straight to your inbox. Use promo code “AT101” for $10 off your first year. Head to ThriftyTraveler.com for more details. Recent finds include:Business class to Hawaii for 31KBusiness class to Tokyo for 60KBusiness class to Europe for 32KYou can find these at ThriftyTraveler.com/Premium.Post of the weekWe polled the Award Travel 101 community to see which of the 25 Program Devaluations hit you the hardest.NewsThe Grand Prize Winner for our 100K Member CelebrationTrip updatesAngie - nothingAllison - getting ready for GasparillaJoe - What to do about Australia - it's only 90 days away. Is it worth doing for two days?What bonuses did we get?Angie - Business Platinum, Bank Bonus, and Ink UnlimitedAllison - nothingJoe - Business Platinum, but maybe another Business Platinum too?Highlight feature: Festivus Airing of Grievances 2023Festivus was created as an alternative to the pressures and commercialism of the Christmas holiday season. The sitcom Seinfeld put their own spin on it, including the airing of the grievances, which consists of each person lashing out at others and the world about how they have been disappointed in the past year. "I got a lotta problems with you people, and now you're going to hear about it!" We've had a lot of negative changes in the Award Travel world in 2023 (25 to be exact), but here are the program updates that impacted the community most: MGM and Hyatt announce Breakup British Airways Hikes Avios Awards on American and Alaska & United Makes Major Award Chart Devaluation Citi Executive Card Changes (Higher fee, reduced AU benefit)To see the full list of all 25 Program Changes, check out the AwardWallet Blog at 7PM Eastern/4PM Pacific.Tip of the WeekDon't procrastinate. As you can see from our review of 2023, things change all the time!! Earn and Burn baby!Where To Find the Award Travel 101 Community For questions, you can join us in the free 100,000+ member Award Travel 101 Community. For more intermediate and advanced strategies, join Award Travel 201 community To book time with our team, check out Award Travel 1-on-1. You can also email us at contactawardtravel@gmail.com. Our next meetup is located in San Antonio, TX on April 26–28, 2024, and it's SOLD-OUT. You can get on our wait-list, but to learn more visit Taco 'Bout A Fiesta! Support the AT101 Podcast/Community

Scott, Cardone, Giant Mike and Novak talk about the New York Sweep from this weekWe preview the Saints and Dolphins games and also talk about the inconsistent officiating in the Chiefs game and beyond and how reliant we are on getting things correct! We'll tackle Pet Peeves and also answer listener questions. Download our podcast at Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1358293Or wherever you get your podcasts from. We are also now available on YouTube. Search for Three Angry Giants fans and subscribe to our channel. 

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequencey and vibration.“~ Nikola TeslaThis Habits 2 Goals episode is FREE for ALL subscribers.What's the first clue that the latest habits “Gooroo” knows little about habit development? They teach the idea that doing a behavior for a month or thirty days – is the key to habit development. Performing a behavior for thirty days is helpful, but it misses a core, fundamental precept of habit development: RHYTHM“Everything in the universe has a rhythm, everything dances.” ~ Maya AngelouWhen I set out to write The Habit Factor®, the first question I pondered, researched and even queried Google was, “Why do habits exist?”Google served up a grand total of ZERO answers – nothing. (See the book for a screenshot)After weeks of contemplating that question, the answer revealed itself. It was elemental: All life is energy. Energy has a predisposition for pattern and rhythm; consider sound waves, ocean waves, the rhythm of the seasons, high tide, low tide, universal planetary rhythms, etc.By understanding this basic idea, anyone can intentionally leverage the rhythm of the week – using four-week increments – to track and reassess the habits they'd like to cultivate.ENTER: BodybuildingThe world of bodybuilding is often associated with sculpted physiques and unwavering dedication. Beyond the physical transformations, there lies a treasure trove of insights into habit formation and the art of self-discipline. Bodybuilders, through their rigorous training routines and meticulous tracking, offer valuable lessons that can be applied to building positive habits.The Rhythm of the WeekJust as bodybuilders structure their workout schedules around specific muscle groups each day of the week, we can adopt a similar approach to habit formation. By dedicating specific times or days to certain habits, we create a rhythm that becomes ingrained in our daily routine. P.A.R.R.: A Habit-Building MethodologyThe P.A.R.R. methodology, which stands for Plan, Act, Record, and Reassess, perfectly aligns with the habit-building strategies employed by bodybuilders.* Plan: Clearly define the habit you want to establish and establish both the “Target Days” and the “Minimum Success Criteria.” (More info here)* Act: By following your plan, you act on your “Target Days”, meeting your “Minimum Success Criteria.” (What happens if you don't? See above link)* Record: Track your actions against your plan and add comments. Comments are essential and help to reinforce your intention (plan).* Reassess: Reassessment is crucial. Evaluate your habit-tracking effort after four weeks. If you are 85% or better against your targets, you should “raise the bar.” (See above link).HabitStrength™: Building MomentumJust as bodybuilders gradually increase the weight they lift to build muscle strength, we can apply the concept of HabitStrength™ to habit formation. By gradually increasing the “Frequency per week” and/or the “Minimum Success Criteria” (duration), we strengthen the habit's strength and its automaticity.Leg Day: A Metaphor for Habit BuildingThe term "Leg Day" represents a plan put into action by following the rhythm of the weekWe can approach habit formation with the same level of intention and understanding. Enjoy the show!~mg***Get the inspiring, free and world's first HABITS to GOALS tracking template here: → https://thehabitfactor.com/templates“The Three Circles of Behavior Echo-System” / The Grunburg Behavior Model is a holistic, fluid, and dynamic behavior-change model. It's the first behavior-change model to demonstrate how our thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and even our environment vibrate (echo and reverberate) to influence each other. Hence, the “Echo-System.” Background here.If you'd like to understand human behavior at an even deeper level, learn more about the “Three Circles of Behavior Echo-System” which is featured in the book, “EVERYTHING!” I teach and coach organizations and individuals worldwide how to best utilize and leverage “The Three Circles of Behavior Echo-System” (below) and the P.A.R.R. [Plan, Act, Record & Reassess] scientifically-backed methodology for individual and organizational behavior design. Check out the latest cohort offering; the waitlist is now open: The 28-Day Breakthrough!*Recently Awarded: “Finalist: Self-help, Motivation”International Book Awards: EVERYTHING is a F*cking STORY.Visit https://thehabitfactor.com/templatesTo learn more about P.A.R.R., just Google “P.A.R.R. and The Habit Factor.”Get The Habit Factor® FREE with your audible trial! https://audibletrial.com/habits2goalsFeedspot's “Top 10 Habit Podcasts You Must Follow in 2021”New listeners, grab your free habits 2 goals tracking template here: https://thehabitfactor.com/templatesFREE copy of As a Man Thinketh (PDF) right here: As a Man ThinkethSubscribe iTunes here! Subscribe: Android This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit habits2goals.substack.com/subscribe

Crystal Nightingale is The Mama Coach. Her mission is “to guide families through every stage of their parenting journey by providing evidence-informed education infused with nonjudgmental support, compassion, and empathy.” Crystal chats with Meagan today about some of the many resources available to women who are in the postpartum stages of motherhood. While we spend a lot of time preparing for our births, we sometimes don't know how to really prepare for postpartum. Crystal talks about how to recognize postpartum depression, preparing for going back to work, tips on birth control after a baby, and lactation advice. We are so thankful for the work Crystal does to help families thrive with their new babies!Additional LinksCrystal's Website - The Mama CoachPostpartum Support InternationalThe Lactation NetworkNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. You are listening to The VBAC Link and I am with my friend today, Crystal. Crystal Nightingale is with The Mama Coach. Right? I'm saying that correctly. She's amazing. I feel like we connected on social media and I just madly fell in love with her. I feel like I could talk to her for hours postpartum and just the journey of what things look like after we have our babies. It's a topic that we don't talk about enough in today's world and honestly, it's a topic that isn't focused on. It's not only not talked about, but it's not focused on, in my opinion, enough. We have babies and are told to come back six weeks later but a whole load of things happen in that six-week period. There are things from recovering from birth and sometimes we have different types of birth. Maybe we had an easy birth and that's super great, but sometimes we have a C-section or a vaginal or an assisted vaginal and we have extra tearing. Maybe we're having a really hard lactation journey and feeding our babies emotionally. There is so much that is packed into postpartum and we just don't put enough focus on it, in my opinion, in the medical world. So today's episode is with Crystal and she's going to be talking more about postpartum. What does it look like? What to expect? All of the things. We're diving deep into it. We're going to be talking about baby blues and postpartum and mood disorders and hormonal dips and lactation and when it's okay to not be okay and when it's okay to ask for help. Just all of the things, so stick with us today. It's going to be a really, really great episode learning more about what to expect in that postpartum experience. Review of the WeekWe have a Review of the Week as usual. Just a reminder if you guys have not had a chance to leave a review, we would love for you to do so. You can do that on Apple Podcasts. You can do that– I actually don't know if you can do it on Spotify but we are on Spotify. You can do it on Google. Just Google “The VBAC Link”. Find us and leave a review there. Wherever you leave a review, we would just love it and you never know, it might be read next on the podcast. Today's review is actually from Google and it's from Elizabeth Garcia. She says, “As a birth doula and mom, I am always referring clients for information to The VBAC Link. For incredible VBAC stories to lift my VBAC clients up and make them know that there are others who have successfully VBAC'd and for advice, information, and statistics, I always turn to The VBAC Link.”Thank you, Elizabeth or Beth, if you go by Beth, for your sweet review. Again, as always, we love your reviews and would appreciate them on any platform that you want to leave them on. Crystal NightingaleMeagan: Okay, cute Crystal. Hi. Welcome to the show. Crystal: Hi Meagan. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm excited for you to be here. Like I was saying in the intro, you probably know more than I do. We don't talk about this. There are so many things that I didn't even know about in postpartum, how our hormones shift and what to look for and I've had three kids. Truly, I have not even been informed and I have had three kids so I'm really excited to dive into this with you today. Crystal: Yes, awesome. I know. Like you said, we have all of this attention during the pregnancy and we have all of these appointments and all of this kind of stuff, all of this information and resources, but then when you have your baby, it's like, “Okay, bye. Take care of yourself and your baby. Make sure you sleep.” Meagan: Yeah. Make sure you sleep. You're like, “How do I do that again when I have a baby waking up every 2-4 hours?” Crystal: Yeah and then most women don't have their first postpartum appointment until six weeks and it's like, oh my gosh. Where is the support for those first six weeks or even beyond? Because postpartum doesn't last just six weeks. I've read somewhere– I can't state the source because I don't remember, but it can last up to a year after giving birth. The way I look at it is, okay. You've been pregnant for about 9-10 months or so and all of that time, your hormones were increasing and your body was changing. In my opinion, it will take at least that long to fully recover as well. Meagan: Absolutely. It's kind of interesting that you say that because with my first, my oldest daughter who just turned 12. I'm thinking of when this episode is coming out. She'll be 12 in a week. Crystal: Oh my gosh. Meagan: I know. It's so crazy to me. But I was 11 months postpartum with her. I had gone back to work when she was 3 months old. I had been working and things were pretty good, then I had some struggle with my lactation with my supply and was doing things to try and get it back. I just felt a shift in my whole self. I went in at 11 months postop because my husband was like, “I think you should talk to somebody.” I didn't really know anyone to talk to so I just went to my OB. My OB said, “You have postpartum depression.” I said, “No, I don't. I am really far out from postpartum now,” because, in my head, almost a year was really far out. He said, “No. You have postpartum depression. This is postpartum depression.” I literally looked at him and my jaw opened and I said, “I think you're crazy.” He said, “Nope. This is postpartum depression.” We talked about it and I was like, “What?” So I called my husband and I said, “Hon, even though I am almost a year, he said I could still have this. I have this. These are the things we talked about on how to work through it.” I just could not in my mind believe him. I really could not believe that I had postpartum depression. I think one, I didn't want to admit it. We have a negative stigma around the word “depression”.Crystal: There's a stigma, yeah. Meagan: With just depression, it's like, “No, no. I'm not depressed. Don't say that. Don't put that diagnosis on me.” Truly, I was scared of that and didn't want to admit it, but then I was like, “No. I am not a few months after birth. I am almost a year out.” So it's interesting that you just said that because I was actually told that at 11 months postpartum. Crystal: Yeah. It's crazy. Like I said, with all of the hormones running rampant during pregnancy, then it's the same afterward. There's a hormonal shift right after delivery, during breastfeeding, and if you stop breastfeeding, there's a hormonal shift as well. Then going back to work has all of these different emotions. It's just an emotional rollercoaster. Meagan: It really is. I think that is what was happening. I was shifting a little bit within my milk and then I was maybe deciding on not working, then there was a lot of pressure on where my daughter was. There was so much going on. I had those hormonal shifts, but I didn't realize they were happening. I didn't recognize them. So yeah. Let's just dive into that. Postpartum– things to expect as a postpartum mom both physically and emotionally. What are things that we could just automatically expect to happen? Crystal: All the emotions. Meagan: All the emotions. Crystal: There is a big drop of estrogen after you deliver and that increases prolactin hormones which help with milk supply and then there is just the initial recovery. So if you delivered vaginally, you may or may not have had any tears and there are different degrees of tears. I know you are more familiar with that kind of stuff and how to prevent it with perineal massage and things like that. It's funny because some people think, “Oh, I'm going to have a big baby,” or whatever they tell you that your baby is going to be big or small, but there is a misconception that if your baby is big, then you're going to tear. You're just going to tear, but some women don't tear and they have 10 pounds but other women tear and they have a 6-pound baby. Meagan: Yep. Crystal: It can happen to anyone. It doesn't matter how big or small your baby is. That's the immediate recovery from any tears. Of course, you want to to sitz baths. They have the dermaplast spray to help with pain and things like that. Bleeding, if you had a C-section, you will still bleed. Maybe not as long as a vaginal delivery, but bleeding can last anywhere from a few weeks up to 8 weeks so that's totally normal. Some women are like, “Oh my gosh. Why am I bleeding still?” It's totally normal for all of that. Meagan: Yeah. The wound of our placenta, we have that on our uterus so we can bleed. We can bleed shorter sometimes or longer sometimes. Crystal: Right. Yeah, and it is a wound which is why it's not recommended to have any sexual intercourse until at least six weeks. Even when your doctor “clears you”, you still may not be ready. You're exhausted. You feel touched out, so it's totally okay to be open with your partner on how you're feeling in regards to that, but you definitely want to wait at least six weeks for sexual intercourse. And then of course, have a plan for birth control because you are most likely more fertile right after you've given birth. Speaking of breastfeeding, there is a family planning method called Lactational Amenorrhea Method and there are three criteria to this. You should be less than six months postpartum. You should be exclusively breastfeeding and not have started your period. With those three combined, you can usually use exclusive breastfeeding as a type of birth control. It's just crazy. You do have to be exclusively breastfeeding though. That's the really big key thing. If you're giving bottles here and there, I believe the CDC I think it was said, “If you're exclusively breastfeeding and not going more than four hours in between feedings, it's a good family planning method.”Meagan: I've never even heard of this. When I saw it on the list, I was like, “What is that?” I had no idea. Crystal: Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. It's just because while you're breastfeeding, a particular hormone is lower than usual. It suppresses ovulation and that's why a lot of women who are exclusively breastfeeding don't even have their periods until months down the line. Meagan: Yeah, we had a question like that on one of the Thursday questions. When is it normal for people to have their period return? I'm like, “It really just depends. It totally depends.” Crystal: Yeah. Yeah. It could be a couple of months after birth, or like I said, if you are exclusively breastfeeding, it could take a little bit longer. Meagan: Yeah, so talking about hormones and all of this, I have been blown away to see recently that we have providers– if you're in Utah anyway, this is happening– that literally right after birth, they are saying, “Hey, we can put your Mirena IUD in right now.” Crystal: Oh my gosh. Meagan: What?! My mind was blown. I was like, “Hold on.” They left and I was like, “Let's talk about this. Let's talk about placing a Mirena IUD the second you have your baby.” Crystal: I know. Meagan: What? No. I mean, for me, I was passionate about it because my IUD was actually placed too early with my second. My cervix hadn't completely “hardened”. It hadn't recovered completely and so it was too soft. It ended up floating up and protruding through my uterus going towards my lung. Crystal: Oh my gosh. Meagan: I was specifically told, “It's because you got it too early.” I'm like, okay. So that was one thing. But hormonally, why are we giving birth control hours and days after we have a baby? So that is something that is happening. Have you ever seen that? Crystal: That is so crazy to me too, yeah. I have. I have. Meagan: Like what? Crystal: Yeah. Literally right after the placenta is expelled–Meagan: “Well, let's place your IUD right now.” Crystal: Yeah, we'll just place it. I'm like, first of all, that's a big wound. Why are you putting something in there? It needs to recover and two, like you said, the hormone stuff. I mean, yes. Mirena or progestin-only birth control is the recommended birth control to use if you are breastfeeding, but still, this is a very vulnerable time. Meagan: Very. Crystal: I say, if you can, wait until you establish your milk supply so that way you have an abundant, well-established supply because you may experience a dip in your milk supply with any type of birth control. It will be easier to bounce back if your milk supply is established. Make sure you are knowledgeable and know what to do and you are informed and educated on it, but yes. I have seen that many, many, many times. I cringe when I see it. I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” But you know, what can you do? The OB offers it. Moms feel like, “Oh yeah. Let's just do it. Might as well,” but they are not given all of the facts and are not informed. It's so crazy.Meagan: I know. I just couldn't believe it. I could not believe it when I saw that. Also too, we want to know who we are and where we are. We're already dealing with so many hormonal shifts emotionally and then getting breastfeeding established and things like that. Why are we adding? I don't know. It wasn't my thing, but I was just shocked to see that. I was shocked to see that that was happening. Like you said, it can impact the milk supply. By the way, listeners, Crystal is also with The Lactation Network, our sponsor, which is super exciting to find out about. She is really skilled in lactation and things like that. Is that something that can impact our milk before we even establish our milk?Crystal: Yeah, it can. I can't say always, right? But yes. I've definitely seen it impacted. It can take a little bit longer for milk supply to be established if you've got the Mirena or started the birth control early on. Like I said, the recommended hormonal birth control is something with progestin-only or progesterone only and no estrogen. But I have seen some women's milk supply impacted by the recommended one. I always say, of course, birth control, yes, is there and it's good but if you do plan to breastfeed, at least know that it may be impacted. Be educated on how you can, I guess, counteract that dip. Frequent and effective removal of milk, staying hydrated, having good nutrition, and eating lots of leafy greens and protein and iron are going to help with that. Meagan: I agree. If we can't get it in through food and nutrients, it's okay to supplement and get vitamins and things like that. We highly suggest Needed but getting the nutrients your body needs and understanding that you're going through a lot so if you can't eat that, supplement with that so your body can still have those nutrients. Crystal: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we are recovering ourselves as well as trying to take care of a new baby and maybe even breastfeeding that baby if you're planning to breastfeed so for sure. You lose some blood during delivery whether it's vaginal or C-section and you know, maybe there's even a complication where you hemorrhaged so now you've lost a lot of blood and you need some iron supplements. So a prenatal vitamin for sure especially if you're breastfeeding and then like you said, if you're unable to eat– most of us, at least I can speak for myself, don't get all of the nutrients that I need through food. Meagan: We don't. We don't. It's so hard. Crystal: It is. It's very hard. Either you're on one side of the spectrum. You're either famished because you're breastfeeding and you want to eat all of the time or you have a lack of appetite. I always recommend for moms if they have a loss of appetite, maybe do a smoothie or a protein shake or something like that. Little snacks throughout the day or a protein bar, nuts, seeds, and things like that. A lack of appetite is a sign of postpartum depression or a postpartum mood disorder. Baby blues versus postpartum depression is pretty similar. Baby blues is basically a temporary, short feeling of that initial postpartum period where you're exhausted. You're stressed. You're anxious. “Am I doing this right for my baby? Is my baby getting enough? I'm tired. Oh my gosh. We've got a new routine going on.” Those are baby blues. It's short, maybe a week or two and you're able to move on. But if it lasts longer than that and includes other signs such as a lack of appetite, excessive worrying, lack of sleep– I mean, of course. New mothers are already sleep-deprived but if you are just so–Meagan: Really unable. Crystal: Unable and you can't sleep even when the baby is sleeping, then those are definitely signs of postpartum depression and you for sure want to reach out to your OB at the least or whatever psychiatric resources your insurance plan has, you want to reach out to them. Of course, online there is a lot of stuff and resources for that. Like you said, it can show up at 11 months postpartum so always be aware of that. And then for the partners, just make sure that they are aware of those things because they may see it first before you realize it yourself. Meagan: Yeah. Exactly. That's what I was just going to say. Yeah, at 11 months is when I really willingly addressed it and recognized it deeper myself, but looking back, I think that it started way further. It just kept getting deeper so going back to baby blues, maybe I was like, “Oh, these are baby blues.” Nursing was really hard for me. I didn't have the opportunity to have as skilled of an IBCLC. As we know, insurance doesn't cover that a lot. We were young and didn't have the best jobs in the world so we didn't really have things like The Lactation Network to work with our insurance and support. Crystal: Right. Right. You couldn't afford it.Meagan: So it was really just trying to figure it out. I had the IBCLC in the hospital and things like that, but not on a deeper level so that was really hard for me. Then it was the stress of work and the thought of how I was going to juggle it all. Then it was back to work. Then I was really struggling when my mother-in-law accidentally spilled over my hard-work-pumped milk for my baby for that day. If I look back at all of the things, I actually had a lot of these signs, but I didn't really chalk it up to anything other than, “I'm a new mom.” I think that's where we can go wrong. There are so many times where it's like, “Of course I'm tired. I have a baby that wakes up every couple of hours. Of course I'm sore. It's because I just had a C-section. Of course I'm this. Of course I'm stressed,” but like you said, if this is continuing, that's where we need to reach out. Crystal: Yeah, and there are a lot of resources out there. Like I said, the first thing would be to reach out to your own provider whether it's your general practitioner or your OB. Someone who can point you in the right direction or give you some of the resources for that. Yeah, so speaking of that, our own maternal struggles, also the partner struggles. I talk to dads and a lot of the time, they're like, “Oh my god, I feel bad. She's trying so hard and I'm trying to do what I can.” It's stressful for the partners as well. Meagan: Absolutely. Crystal: Seeing your other half struggle because they really want to breastfeed or struggling with postpartum depression. Partners will ask me, “How can I help?” so I give them tips like, okay. If mom is breastfeeding or doing newborn care or anything like that, try to make the meal for her. Help with the other kids or say, “Hey, why don't you go take a bath?” because as moms, we just neglect ourselves. I always say, “Make sure she has snacks.” Of course, water and food are probably the biggest things especially immediately postpartum for recovery for ourselves and to nourish our body so we can nourish the baby. But yeah, we should acknowledge that and like I said, obviously, I can't speak for all moms, but for me, I didn't realize and acknowledge all of the things that my partner was doing. The partners can also experience some postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression. Meagan: They really can. I was just going to say that I didn't have the mental space to recognize what my husband was and wasn't doing and where he was emotionally. It wasn't until I wanted to VBAC with my second, my VBAC after two C-sections, that I realized that he had some trauma and some things that he had been dealing with based on things that he had said. It was like, “Oh, okay.” So it's kind of interesting, but I wasn't in that space because I was so focused on my baby that I couldn't even focus on myself or my husband. Crystal: Of course. Right, yeah. Yeah. As mothers, it's instinctual. Of course, we have our baby. We have to protect it and we have to do everything for it but then also we neglect ourselves and inadvertently everyone else around us. But it's good to acknowledge and even just a “thank you” to the partner like, “Hey, I'm so sorry. I'm just really tired. Blah blah blah. Thank you for what you're doing and supporting our family.” Meagan: And coming up with a plan. I think communication is really big and it's really hard for us to say, “I'm not okay,” but it's okay to not be okay or feel okay. There would be times where I would just be tearful. I didn't even know why. He would be like, “What's wrong?” I would be like, “I don't know. I don't know. I don't have anything where I can say this or that.” It got to the point where you have to communicate and say, “I'm not okay” or “I need help today” or “What can I do for you today? I'm feeling really good. You seem like you're stressed. What can I do for you today?” Right? It's hard because again, we're not in that space. We're already taking care of a baby. We can't take care of another human, but they are taking care of the other kids and the dinners and they're still trying to help so sometimes just asking, “Hey, I'm doing good today. I'm just doing a quick check-in. How are you? If you're not okay, how can I help you?” or “Hey, “I'm not doing well today. Is there any way I can get help with this?” Or if they can't do it because they are tapped out, talk about it. Come up with a plan. Maybe it's lactation help. Maybe it's going to a therapist. Maybe it's having a cleaner come in and clean your house because looking at it is creating anxiety for everything that's going on. We don't want a dirty house with a new baby and all of these things. So communicating and really having that full openness is going to impact our postpartum and the way things are with our spouse and our loved ones. Crystal: Yes. I totally agree. Communication is key. I really believe that preparing for the postpartum period before we get there is key too. Meagan: 100%. Crystal: Yes. That well-known saying, “It takes a village,” I say, try to start forming your village before you deliver. Look up different mom groups if you don't have family. Of course, family and friends that are near you will be the best because you feel more comfortable asking. It's pretty hard for us to ask for help. Meagan: It is. Crystal: But it should hopefully be easier with family and close friends so if you can establish that village beforehand before it gets really bad, then you have those resources already. Or, like I said, if you don't have family or friends close by– like for me, I was in the military and I had my second baby while I was away from all of my family– try to find resources in your county or your community or even online mom groups like The VBAC Link and support groups like that where you can even just vent and type out, “I'm so tired.” Whatever you are feeling, there are just so many supportive women, not only women but supportive people out there who are willing to be an ear or try to put you in the right direction or even point out things like, “Hey, it sounds like you maybe need to reach out to somebody. Please do,” and this kind of stuff. Meagan: Absolutely. We've been talking about that a lot lately how we're doing so much to prep for the birth and during pregnancy and all of these things, but then we do forget about the postpartum and really, during our prep for birth, we also need to be prepping for that postpartum period. Crystal: For sure. Meagan: That includes finding your village and getting a meal train organized. Truly, meal trains are amazing. If you want to breastfeed or whatever, I would think even if you are not planning on breastfeeding, it's good to talk to a lactation consultant. Get in touch with The Lactation Network beforehand. Understand your resources and your groups. PSI, postpartum support international, is really great. Resources as well– being familiar with those pages, going and looking at those professionals, understanding, and having a relationship so it doesn't come to five weeks postpartum and think you need help but now it feels really overwhelming to find that village. Crystal: Yes. Right, right. Meagan: Right? It's very overwhelming so if we can just have our village in play, then they're available. We have them on our list. “Oh, here's my lactation help. Here's my postpartum help. Here's my favorite group to vent and get it out because I know I'm going to be validated and feel love in this group.” Crystal: Yes.Meagan: Whatever it may be, do it beforehand. Do it before. Crystal: Yes, yes. I wish I did that before too with my older kids because like you were saying earlier, we were young. I didn't know. I was naive. I was 20 and I'm just like, “Okay. I don't know what I'm doing.”Meagan: I'm just going to have a baby. That's what people do. They show up and have babies then they go off. They know how to nurse and they know how to help. They understand what is going on with their body and how to recover and get those nutrients and fuel our brains. No. Guess what? I didn't know any of that, you guys. Crystal: I didn't either. I did not either. Meagan: I wish I did. I wish I did and that's why we're here talking to you today. Even if it's baby number two and you didn't do it with your first, it's not too late to create your village beforehand for birth and postpartum. Crystal: Totally. Meagan: Those might be two different villages, just fyi. Crystal: True. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Speaking of postpartum, parents need to also keep in mind that things can change. We have our birth plan. Okay, we're going to breastfeed. We're just going to pump or however you choose to feed your baby but unfortunately, things can happen that are unexpected things. Complications or issues with milk supply or baby not even wanting to take a bottle, having a bottle refusal or breast strike so just being flexible and like you said, knowing where you can turn to for help like, “Okay. I'm having this issue. I'm going to reach out to my lactation consultant” or “I need some extra help with meals or cleaning.” Like you said, now that I know everything that I know, I wish somebody would have told me– you know how we do our birth registry– that we don't need a lot of those things that we put on there. What we need are meal trains and if you have family or friends, someone who can take turns once a week to come in and cool a meal for you or just help you clean up or even a postpartum doula. Meagan: Yes. Crystal: Money for that would be great. Way back when, we didn't have all of this different equipment for the babies and we did just fine without it. Meagan: Yep. Yep. Yeah. There are so many details to figure out. If you really think about it, it's why it makes so much sense to do it beforehand because we're tired. We're sore. We're recovering. We're overwhelmed already. You guys, I don't know. This is my personality. If I'm overwhelmed, I'll just ignore it. I'm like, “I'll just get to it later.” Then it never happens and I suffer because I never did it. Crystal: Yep, exactly. Meagan: Honestly, you guys, if it's overwhelming– say that right now you're listening and you're 3 months postpartum and you're like, “Oh gosh. Yep. Everything these guys are saying, I need help,” delegate. That's okay. Tell someone. Tell your mom or your friend, “Hey. I need help. This is where I'm at. Is there any way you can help me find these resources?” In the show notes below, we are going to have some resources. We'll have The Mama Coach. We'll have The Lactation Network. We're going to have PSI. We're going to make it easy for you right here too, but it's okay to delegate and say, “Hey, I'm not in a space that I can find this.” Wish you woulda, shoulda, coulda, you can't go back and dwell on it. Let's get help now. Delegate someone to find you or even send them this resource and say, “Can you reach out to these links?” Crystal: Yeah, because that's a lot of time too going through these different resources and contacting them or navigating their websites to find the specific information you need. It takes a lot of time and the next thing you know, an hour goes by and you're like, “Oh my gosh, I could have taken a nap. Now the baby's up.”Meagan: Exactly, yeah. Send them this podcast. There will be all of the links in the show notes for all of the things that we are talking about including nutrients that your body needs and resources so we can hopefully try to make it easier for you. Crystal: Yes, for sure. Yes. As a Mama Coach, we have Mama Coaches all around the U.S. and even all around the world. Most of us do provide postpartum hourly care similar to a postpartum doula. We could do it even virtually, virtual postpartum care. If you need help with how to birth your newborn or just with help around the house. If you need someone to watch your baby while you take a nap, the Mama Coach has a lot of services as well. Like you said, it will be in the show notes but definitely reach out. If I can't help you, I can definitely point you in the right direction or connect you with another Mama Coach or resource, whatever that can hopefully help support you. Meagan: Yeah. Do you know what I wish I had you for? Helping me know how to return to work. Crystal: Ah, yes. That's a big one. Meagan: It was a really big, daunting task. I remember just trying to look online, how to figure out, what a good schedule is, if I wanted to pump, what a good schedule for pumping was based off of my specific work schedule, and things like that. Crystal: Yeah. Meagan: I know you guys can help with that. Just a few tips that you can give our listeners if they are planning on returning to work. Crystal: Yes. I always say to try to start planning for your return to work at least a month before you plan to return to work. If you are breastfeeding, say you are postpartum and going along, you are exclusively breastfeeding and now you're going back to work, if you're going to be bottle feeding, don't wait until the last minute to introduce a bottle. There have been a lot of babies who have refused the bottle and just want the breast so for sure, you don't have to give them a bottle every time, but I always say that at least once a week or so starting off a month prior to going back to work, start to introduce it if you haven't already. Yes, definitely you need a plan because there is that separation anxiety too. You've just been home with your baby for 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 3 months, 6 months. You've been home taking care of your baby and now you have to pass him or her off to either a daycare provider or a family member or your husband. The husbands do a lot of stuff, but of course, as a mother, we just are that nurturing type and it's like, “Okay. Are you going to take care of the baby as well as I do?” Meagan: Yeah. I wanted to micromanage my husband. I was like, “I know you're going to do it great.” I kind of was that way with everyone. “I know you're going to do a really good job, but you're not me.” It's so hard. Crystal: Exactly. It's just different. It's definitely hard. There is that separation anxiety so prepare mentally too. Like you said, open communication with whoever is going to be the caregiver while you are away for work whether it's your partner, a family member, a friend, or a daycare provider, be open with them. “Hey, I am breastfeeding and bottle feeding. Paced bottle feeding. Can we talk about that? If you don't know how to do it, I can send you a video on how to do it.” If they are starting solids, what kinds of foods? There are a lot of different things so you definitely need to come up with a plan. I think that the biggest thing is coming up with a plan and being flexible because you just never know what your baby is going to want to take. Meagan: I know. Crystal: I've heard of babies not even eating while they are away from their mom and then they are nursing all throughout the night and now moms are tired and they have to go to work tired. It is a lot so I mean, I think the few tips I have is to get prepared at least a month in advance and open communication with whoever the caregiver is going to be. Reach out for help. Meagan: And reach out for help. Absolutely. Women of Strength, it's okay to reach out for help. It's okay to feel like you need help. We don't want you to have to feel like you need help. We want you to be prepared and feel confident along the way, but it's more likely to need help than to not need help so know that if you do need help, you're not alone. There are a ton of amazing resources that just want to do nothing but help you. Crystal: Yes, definitely. Meagan: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. We'll definitely have to have you on again. I know that we have just brushed the surface. Crystal: Yes. No, I would love to be on here again. Thank you for having me. I love this platform. You guys give a great amount of information and resources and things like that, so thank you for having this platform. Meagan: Yes, thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Sophie and Joe discuss news, their newest cards, trip updates, and how Sophie has transitioned into the travel business. Get Thrifty Traveler Premium deal/award alerts sent straight to your inbox. Use promo code “AT101” for $10 off your first year. Head to ThriftyTraveler.com for more details and check out their Google Flights guide. Recent finds include:First class to Hawaii for 31,000 milesBusiness class to London for 61,000 milesFlash Sale for 19,000 miles (Round-Trip) to MexicoYou can find these at ThriftyTraveler.com/Premium.Highlight feature:Meet Sophie KellerBackground - 1st card- Chase Sapphire Preferred/United ExplorerHighlights - Hyatt Zilara Cap Cana right after it opened last year, Park Hyatt New York and Flagship First before award price hike for 25K Amex Membership Rewards JFK-SFO, and multiple Visits to Secrets Impressions and MoxcheTravel style - A mix of budget and Luxury, typically soloFavorite programs - World of Hyatt, Chase Ultimate Rewards, and American AAdvantagePost of the weekWe received some great feedback on the PodcastNewsMaximizing Hilton Honors 5th Night Free - Joe's story on mistakePromotions endingEnhanced Alaska Card $95 card offerFrontier Status (actual) Match90K Bonuses are back from ChaseTrip updatesSophie - Getting ready for ZorkFestJoe - Father son tripLie-flat seats for 25K Citi ThankYou PointsCheap Car Rentals plus status upgradesHyatt Free Night Award at Expensive ResortFun Activities & PlanespottingHyatt Free Night Award Plus Suite UpgradeHilton Free Night Award at Expensive Boutique PropertyLounge Passes from Credit CardLots of (Nearly) Free Food What bonuses did we get?Sophie -Chase Ink Preferred bonus hitJoe - Where To Find the Award Travel 101 Community For questions, you can join us in the free 100,000+ member Award Travel 101 Community. For more intermediate and advanced strategies, join Award Travel 201 community To book time with our team, check out Award Travel 1-on-1. You can also email us at contactawardtravel@gmail.com. Our next meetup is located in San Antonio, TX on April 26–28, 2024, and it's SOLD-OUT. You can get on our wait-list, but to learn more visit Taco 'Bout A Fiesta! Support the AT101 Podcast/Community

Join our Facebook Group: Can We Be Real?Coming up today:We talk the last few years and how far we have all comeYour Secrets are shared and boy do we love this weekWe talk Kanye West and his new partner.If you have a secret to share on the next episode please share it below.SHARE SECRET HERE!And if you can share "Can We Be Real?" with your friends to help spread that word that would be a huge help as always.Follow:@Meshel_Laurie@Simonbaggs Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Have you heard of radical acceptance? Julie Francom leads our episode today alongside Meagan as they discuss what this concept is and how it is helping them process their births even now, years later. Meagan gets especially vulnerable today as she shares a part of her VBA2C birth story that has never before been shared on the podcast. Women of Strength, birth can be all of the things– empowering, euphoric, intense, and traumatic. We want you to know that we are processing and healing right along with you. We all have work to do and we are all in this together. Has radical acceptance helped you process your births? We would love to hear your experiences!Additional LinksAccepting Reality Using DBT Skills ArticleHow to Embrace Radical Acceptance ArticleNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsJulie: Heyo, it's Julie here, your co-host for the day of The VBAC Link Podcast. I am joined by Meagan Heaton, the ever-wonderful, always amazing, always uplifting and inspiring. Man, did I already say your name? I forget. I went on a tangent. Meagan: You did. Hello, everybody. It's so fun. When we were just talking about it, I was like, “Julie, you lead the episode today.”Julie: I'm out of rhythm. Meagan: It's great. You did a great job. Julie: We are here today. We were just hashing over topics that we could talk about something that I am working through always in my life and different things that we could possibly introduce today and we landed on the topic of radial acceptance. I think we're going to tell you about why we chose that topic here in just a little bit, but I'm really excited today because birth is complicated. I feel like everyone coming here in this space with us has probably had a complicated birth or witnessed a complicated birth. Hello, birth workers. Review of the WeekWe're going to talk a little bit about that and what happens when you just can't get over it or overcome it. But before we do any of that and before I ramble on my merry little way today, Meagan's going to read a review for us. Meagan: Yes. Okay, so we have this review from Apple Podcasts. This is from our friend, Tiffany. She said, “VBAC After Two Cesarean” as the subject. She said, “After two C-sections, I doubted if it was possible to VBAC for my third. I listened to your podcast my entire pregnancy and it gave me the strength and the knowledge to advocate for myself. I changed my provider three times before finding a supportive OB. My third baby came into this world on her due date with a successful VBAC after two Cesarean and I couldn't thank The VBAC Link enough.”Oh, I am so happy for you, Tiffany. Huge congrats. This podcast is literally meant for exactly that– to give you the knowledge, to give you the strength, and to just give you the connection and this community. This community is so beautiful, so vulnerable, and obviously so near and dear to both my and Julie's hearts. That is exactly what we want this podcast to do– to build you up, to strengthen you, to educate you, to go on and have the birth that you desired, and if you don't have the birth that you desired, to have a better birth outcome. We don't have to have a VBAC in order to have a better birth outcome. That's really important to talk about too. Through this podcast, we share all of it. We share CBAC stories and elective inductions and all of these things because we know that one size does not fit all. That's exactly what we are going to be talking about today during the episode. Julie: Yep. I love that. Meagan's going to get a little bit vulnerable. Meagan: I am. I'm going to talk about a thing that I don't think I've fully opened up to yet years later. Radical AcceptanceJulie: I'm getting old now. I know that everyone is like, “Oh, you're not old.” I'm 38 though and I'm feeling it. I can't even come home from a birth now without creaking my bones in the shower and into bed. I am feeling it. I know 38 is really not that old, but I feel like I look at my friends who are 28 and I'm 38. That's a 10-year difference, right? I'm starting to see some differences between myself and them just in the space on the time lived and the amount of life lived and the amount of time spent on this twirling rock in the universe. It's interesting because I know it's not a secret here that I've had a huge mental health journey over these last two years. I feel like a lot of that has helped me grow and evolve as a human. Maybe I'm a little bit older and wiser than I was when I was 28. Oh my gosh, I hope so. I don't know. Yeah. I've come a long way since then. But, we wanted to talk today about a term that I learned in therapy called radical acceptance. I'm just going to get right into it. I don't know. Do you want to say anything, Meagan, before?Meagan: Yeah, so are you going to define it? I was going to say that radical acceptance is something that can be defined as the ability to accept situations that are outside of our control without judging them which in turn reduces the suffering that is caused by them. I think, Julie, what we talked about before is that you should start right out there and talk about radical acceptance, how you learned about it, and how it came about. Julie: Yeah. Gosh, I love it. I remember when I was going through my big trauma-processing journey a few years back, that's when I really learned the term “radical acceptance, radical acceptance” and I love it because radical acceptance is where you have to stop fighting reality. You stop responding with impulsive behaviors or destructive behaviors when things aren't going the way you want them to or looking back on the way things happened. You've got to let go of the bitterness that can be keeping you trapped in this cycle of suffering and to truly accept the reality, to radically accept the reality, we have to understand the facts about the past and about the present– like what's going on now– even if they're uncomfortable or if there is something that we didn't want to happen or to be happening. We can examine the cause of this suffering that we have encountered, the events surrounding it, or all of the situations that we went through that have caused us pain or are causing us pain. But by radically accepting them, stopping fighting them, and stopping living in this cycle of suffering, we are better equipped to move forward into a life that is better and that is more promising, and more hopeful and causes us less anxiety and less pain. I feel like it's just all about embracing things as they were, embracing things as they are, and being able to live in that even though you haven't changed any of it. I was telling Meagan before we started– I am saying this. This is a perfect example. I will never, ever, ever, ever know if my Cesarean was necessary. I won't. I think I can list ways and reasons why it probably was and I can also list reasons why it probably wasn't. I'm just never, ever, ever– I can say ever so many times– I will never know–Meagan: Never, ever, ever. Julie: –for certain whether it was necessary or not. Was my induction necessary? I think so, but I mean, I don't know really. That used to really bother me because I'm a very analytical person. I liked fixed facts and data. I like to know things with certainty. I do. That is something I won't ever know. I'm okay with that. I feel like getting to the point of being okay with not knowing and with the certainty that I will never know is very freeing. It's freeing. I feel free. I am not haunted by it. It doesn't keep me up at night. Moving beyond that, I know that I am a good mom even though I didn't know everything that I wish I would have known going into my first birth. I have radically accepted the fact that there were things I didn't know and that's okay. I am okay with that fact. I have radically accepted the fact that I cannot be a human superwoman who can juggle all of the things in my life that I need to– my kids, my husband, my birth photography, doula work, The VBAC Link, and all of these other things. I had to drop these other things and I had to radically accept that I could not keep going in the life that I was doing. It doesn't mean that anything has changed. My C-section was the way that it was. There was no change there, but I have changed the way that I thought about it, the way that I continue to receive it, and the way that I respond to those circumstances. I feel like that's what radical acceptance is all about. You can't just turn on a switch and be like, “All right. Radical acceptance. Schwink”, but I feel like if you move forward with the desire of that radical acceptance, then that will impact how you respond physically and emotionally to the thing that you're trying to accept. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Meagan: No, yeah. It does. This is going to apply to all things. In all things in life, it's really hard because like you said, it's not just a “schwink” like you say. It's not a switch you can turn on and off like, “Okay. It's gone. I accept it. Moving on.” It's not like that. It takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of mind-power and will. You have to be okay to let it go and to let the attachment to the painful past or the pain that you are holding onto go because really what is happening in so many ways is that pain is overcoming you. It's taking over you. Like Julie said, she's not staying awake all night thinking about it. It's not consuming her thoughts anymore. She's let it go and it's in a healthy place. “Okay. This happened. It's not what I wanted. It's not what I would have chosen, but it happened. I don't know if it was needed. I don't know. I really don't know, but I'm going to accept that it happened and I'm moving on.” Yeah, so I think it's so important to know that you can't expect yourself to just do it. Right? But it can be done. So yeah. Keep going. Julie: Yeah, no. I feel like another simple way to say it, and it's not simple, but a simple way to say it is understanding what you have control over and what you will never have control over. I can control how I respond to things. I can control how I do my self-care. I can control whether I meditate or not. I can control what type of clients I take on and what my travel radius is. I can control what provider I choose. I cannot control what provider I chose. It's already happened. I cannot control how Meagan thinks or acts in any situation. One of the things that radical acceptance term really clicked and the first thing that I radically accepted was my sister-in-law and I butt heads a lot sometimes. It's gotten better over the last year and a half because I have radically accepted that she is the way she is. It took me a long time. It sounds easy, but it took me a long time where I just don't worry about it anymore. She does this. She says this and I don't worry about it. I interact with my children the way I want to interact with them. I teach them how to treat other people. I respond to people how I do. I know how to treat other people and try my best to treat other people well although I am not perfect at it because none of us are perfect, but just radically accepting it– I remember the day where I was just like, “Yes. She is the way she is and I'm okay with that.” It felt like a light switch at that time, but it was a lot of things building up to that moment. I feel like we should probably say that we are not medical professionals. We are not mental health professionals. We are just talking about our real-life experiences so I feel like if you have things that you need to process through, you should see a therapist or you should see a mental health professional or somebody that can really help you. Meagan, I just sent you an article. You can link it in the show notes. Meagan: Yeah, I have it. Something that I really love is what is reality acceptance. Julie: Yeah, so drop this in the show notes. I feel like this has got lots of helpful tips there, but I want to skip to the end where it says, “10 Steps for Practicing Acceptance”. I'm using DBT. DBT is just a different type of therapy, but I feel like the first one is such a big deal. I could go off on another therapy tangent, but I won't. The first one is “Observe that you're fighting against reality.” It shouldn't be like this. Every time you say, “I should” or “I shouldn't” or “He should do that. My doctor should know better. I should do this. My kids should go to bed.”Those are requirements that you have for the world and requirements are not usually healthy. They're just not. I could go off on a whole thing, but I won't. “I should do this. He should do that. I shouldn't feel like this. I shouldn't feel sad. I have a healthy baby. I shouldn't feel sad about it.” No, that's a requirement and that is fighting against reality. You're fighting against reality when you say things like that. That's a sign that you're fighting against reality. I feel like sometimes awareness is the first part of it. Or “so-and-so shouldn't post triggering things like that. Those things trigger me. They shouldn't be posting that. They should post a trigger warning with their comments.” Those are all signs that you're fighting against reality, right? Some type of reality that exists somewhere inside of you. And then the second is just reminding yourself when those things happen, instead of sitting with that, “It shouldn't be like this. She shouldn't have said that,” remind yourself that that reality, you cannot change it. You are not in control of it. Sometimes that awareness, being like, “Oh, I'm doing this. Okay no, you're right. This is fine. It's not going to change. I can't change this. I have no control over that.” That's the first step into your radical acceptance path. I'm just going to read through the rest of these really quickly and I highly recommend that you sit with these if you can. “Acknowledge that something led to this moment.” Something happened to you to lead you to have this kind of response. The next one is, “Practice acceptance with not only your mind but your body and spirit.” Be mindful of your breath and your posture. Use your self-care skills. Use half-smiling and take deep breaths. That's a big thing for me. I take deep breaths when I feel those sensations and that tightening and tensing in my body. The next one is, “List what your behavior would look like if you did accept the facts and then acted accordingly.” Imagine what it would be like if these things didn't bother you. Meagan: How would you look? How would you feel? How would you be living your everyday life?Julie: How would your environment change? How would your body feel? How would your breath feel? “Plan ahead with events that seem unacceptable and then plan how you should appropriately cope.” Oh my gosh, we go to my in-laws for Sunday dinner every other Sunday. It was like, every Sunday dinner going in, I would see my sister-in-law. We've had moments where we've been grumpy with each other and moments where we've been fine. But during those grumpy stages, I would walk in bracing for a fight, but when I became aware and was working on my radical acceptance, I would just meditate before, breathe deeply on the way in, and walk in with a posture of lightheartedness and airyness and it helped so much. “Remain mindful of your physical sensations” because your body will respond before your mind catches up to what's going on. So being more mindful of your body is so important. “Embracing feelings of disappointment, sadness, or grief.” It's okay to have those sad feelings and those hard feelings. It's okay. You should sit with them. You should sit with them and explore them and let them move through your body, but don't stay there. Don't stay there with them forever. “Acknowledge that life is worth living even when there is temporary pain.” Things are worth moving forward and moving through. And then the last one is, “If you feel yourself resisting, complete your pros and cons exercise to better understand the full impact of your choices or your experience.” I feel like all of those things, wherever you're at in the process, moving through these steps or these little feelings are going to help you grow and become better. You're going to be released from these things that are burdening you, this reality that you don't like or that you don't accept. But yeah. Meagan: Yeah. That's what I was saying. Radical acceptance doesn't have to mean that you agree with what happened. Julie: Yes. You don't have to endorse it. It doesn't mean you have to like it. Meagan: Right, but it gives you a chance to accept things and not fight against it because it is insane how much we don't realize that sometimes these things will bring us down. They're going to bring us down. There are many times– we were talking before we were recording about how sometimes it's not even to us. As birth workers, we see things and we're like, “No!” You know? Or we have friends and we're like, “No, don't do that.” But we can't control them. We have to know that we can't control them and it's okay that we can't control them. We may not agree with the choice that they are making, but it's okay. We have to accept that. That is a choice that they feel is best for them. That is what they are doing whether or not we would do that or not. So, kind of in the beginning, Julie was talking about, “I will never, ever know if my Cesarean was truly necessary,” and something when we were talking about this is that I'm never going to know blank, blank, blank. I don't know if I've ever really, deeply talked about a part of my birth story that happened and that does affect me. It's really hard. As I'm learning about this radical acceptance, it's like, “Have I done radical acceptance? Have I practiced this or is it still eating at me?” I think it probably is still eating at me. I probably fully haven't. I'm working that way and I'm waiting for my light switch to go on and off, but I'm working up to it. It's like my light switch is half on. It reminds me of Hypnobabies. My light switch is dim. It's coming down but it's still there. So yeah, I'm going to open up to you and just tell you guys. I don't think I've ever talked about this that I know of. Julie: I'm so curious. Sorry. Meagan: You're just fine. So after I had my son, Webster– he's my VBA2C baby– I was so happy. I was so happy and I will never forget that moment of, “You guys! I did it!” and just ugly crying, screaming, and looking around the room and everyone– not a dry eye in the room– looking at me just smiling from ear to ear. And then what happened after is what I may need to work on accepting. I remember sitting there holding my baby and hearing everyone talking and then all I heard was, “Riiiiing.” Yep. I heard ringing, just like that in my ears, high, high-pitched. My ears were just buzzing. I'm sitting on a horseshoe thing holding my baby. We're waiting for my placenta. I'm hearing it and it's getting louder and then everybody started going fuzzy. I woke up on the floor covered in blankets confused. My husband said, “You passed out.” I said, “Okay. I thought I was going.” I knew what was happening, but I didn't want to say anything. He said, “I looked over,” because he was right behind me. He said, “I looked over your shoulder and your arms just went limp so I hurried and grabbed the baby and said, ‘You guys, she's passing out.'” I pass out. I'm on the ground. I wake up and I'm like, “What just happened?” Everyone is still so happy. They're not acting really any differently. They're just like, “You passed out.” I'm like, “Okay, well I did just go through a long labor. 42 hours of labor, pretty intense pushing. I hadn't eaten a ton. I hadn't eaten a ton the day before either because I was not feeling very good.” Anyway, so I was like, “Okay, cool.” A phone was handed to me and they're like, “Your chiropractor is on the phone. You've got to tell her,” so I'm like, “Hi!” I'm telling her how I did it. I'm so excited and back to normal. But laying on the floor, I guess pushing out the placenta, I don't remember. Then they're like, “Okay.” I hang up the phone and they're like, “Okay, let's get you to the bedroom.” I'm at a birth center. I'm like, “Okay great.” We stand up. We walk to the bed and I'm not feeling very good. I'm feeling really funny. I can just feel my heart. It's pounding. I think I made it to the bedroom and I was in the bed. I just remember not feeling very good. They were taking my vitals. My vitals were off, but I was just so happy. I was so elated. I was nursing my baby. He latched really fast and I was so happy. Then they're like, “Okay, we've got to get you to the bathroom.” This was a couple of hours later. They fed me some food and I was hoping that maybe it was blood sugar or something. Anyway, they fed me my food and were like, “Okay, let's go to the bathroom.” I get up and before I know it, I'm waking up. I wake up and the first thing I say is, “I'm on the ground again.” They're like, “Yeah, you just passed out again.” Did you know this, Julie?Julie: Okay, so it's kind of ringing a bell a little bit, but I don't remember.Meagan: You don't remember all of it, yeah. Julie: Well, I remember other little parts, but I just don't want to get ahead of you. But go ahead, you're fine. Meagan: Yeah, you're fine. I'm like, “I'm on the ground again.” They're like, “Yeah, you just passed out again.” I was like, “That's weird.” So I sat on the ground. We're talking about random stuff, you guys. I still remember to this day. Serial podcasts, Adnan Syed, if anyone likes crime, that was my favorite podcast. I was like, “What do you guys think? Is Adnan guilty or is he innocent?” We were just talking about all of this random stuff. They were probably thinking, “What?” It was like my fight or flight was like, “I can't deal with what is happening right now. I have to talk about something else.” So we talked about that. We talked about such random stuff. I was like, “Okay. I feel better.” I had sat up and I was like, “I'm feeling really good.” So I sat up. I walked to the toilet. I sat on the toilet and I was like, “I'm going again.” I could feel it. I communicated it. My doula and my husband run over. I'm literally falling off the toilet and I wake up to an alcohol swab. My doula had an alcohol swab on my nose. I wake up and I was like, “What the heck? What is happening?” I go to the bathroom. I go back in and I'm just not doing very well. My vitals are not good. My pulse is really high and my heart rate was actually really low. My blood pressure was low. I'm actually showing signs of shock is what I'm showing, but it's not clicking in my head. “What in the heck, right?” Needless to say, I go home. I'm not doing really well. The next day, I'm really not doing well. I'm white as a ghost. I have this weird, crazy thing. I stand up. I've got ringing in my ears. I feel like garbage. I'm very dizzy. I can't get my breath. It's just really weird. Anyway, I went to the hospital because I had gone to the midwife the day before. We did a blood draw and she said, “Yeah, you've got low blood counts.” I was like, “Okay.” It was the Fourth of July. I'm really not feeling good. We go to the hospital. We do my blood tests. The doctor comes in and has a very serious face and I'm actually really mad. It's the Fourth of July. I just had this beautiful VBAC and I'm in the hospital emergency room without my baby. Without my baby. My mom stayed with my baby. I'm pissed. I'm like, “What the heck is happening?” So he comes in and he's got this very serious look on his face. He says, “Well, we're going to have to run some more tests.” I said, “Oh, okay. What's going on?” He said, “Well, half of your body's blood is missing.” Julie: This is the part that I remember. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. He said, “Half of your body's blood is missing. You said you're not really bleeding, right?” I said, “No.” After you have a baby, you're bleeding, but it wasn't bad. I was like, “No, yeah. Pretty normal.” He was like, “Okay. Well, we're going to do some tests to see if we can find internal bleeding and if you're bleeding internally.” I said, “Okay.” So anyway, we did all of these tests. We can't find my blood. It's gone. It's missing. I have no blood– or half of my body's blood. I look like a ghost. I feel terrible. I can't function very well and he's like, “We can't find it. We don't know. You're not bleeding internally. You're not bleeding externally. We have no idea what's happened to you.” I'm like, “Okay.” So they said, “You need four bags of blood. Two blood transfusions. Two bags each.” I don't know why. It freaked me the heck out. It was a lot of someone else's blood. I know we've come a long way. I thank all of the donations. I thank all of the donations out there, but it freaked me out so I actually declined and to this day, I need to have radical acceptance. I question, “Why didn't I get blood? I would have felt better.” Julie: It took you forever to feel better. Meagan: It did. My levels were back to pretty much just above normal at six weeks. Everyone told me it wouldn't happen. Sorry, I'm weird. Yes. I ate my placenta. I did placenta encapsulation. I swear it helped. Everyone told me I was crazy. They were like, “You're not going to be able to breastfeed. You're in bad shape. You're really bad.” And I didn't do it. So I had that. Why didn't I do that? But all in all, I still have this, “What in the heck happened to me? What happened? How did that happen? Why did that happen? How does someone lose half of their body's blood?” Julie: And don't know where it goes because you didn't hemorrhage afterwards. Meagan: No. No. I had very little, normal blood loss after. Anyway, I have lots of questions. I have lots of hypotheses. I have a lot of things. Could this have happened? Could this have happened? I don't know. Maybe this happened. And some days, Julie, it does take over my mind. I get angry. I get confused and I sometimes question my team. Is there something that they know that they're not telling me? I don't know. I struggle. So I need to practice radical acceptance. Julie: Radical acceptance. Yes, you do. Meagan: Because that did happen to me and it is frustrating because I did say– so the signs of lack of acceptance is “This isn't right. It's not fair. It shouldn't be like this. I can't believe this is happening. Why is this happening to me? Why did this happen?” I have all of those feelings still. It's not fair. I had this beautiful VBAC. Now, I have this shitty– yes, I'm saying the word shitty on the podcast– postpartum experience. It was really hard and I was mad. I couldn't believe it was happening. It shouldn't be like this. I should be screaming from the rooftops, “You guys, I had my vaginal birth after two Cesareans!” But instead, I could barely walk. So I need to practice this radical acceptance. I need to recognize these signs and I need to get better because I am angry with the situation and confused. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: I feel stuck. I feel stuck. What happened? But like you don't know if your Cesarean was ever necessary, I may never know what happened to me. Julie: You will never know where all your blood went. Meagan: I will never know where all my blood went. Julie: Nope. Meagan: I will never know why I had ringing in my ears and why I passed out three times after I had him. Right? I will never know. So I have work to do. Julie: We all have work to do. Meagan: I was going to say, it's okay if you have work to do too. Women of Strength, we all have work to do just like Julie said. We have to take one step at a time moving forward and working through it and letting go of the painful past of the unknown. Julie: Oh my gosh. Okay, so I have something to say. Surprise. My therapist is obsessed with his wife. Obsessed. You wouldn't want anyone to be more obsessed with you if you are married to this guy. A few months ago, she came to him and she wanted a divorce. They are getting divorced now. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Julie: I know. It took everybody by storm. I was like, “What is happening?” Anyway, the details are not important, but he came to one of our trauma support groups the other night. He's not affiliated with the company anymore, but he just came because I told him to come and he listens to me because I'm his favorite. We were all going around the room sharing how we were doing and he wasn't going to share, but everyone got done. I came a little bit late and I was like, “Oh, did I miss his check-in?” He said, “Oh no, I wasn't going to share.” Then somebody else came in and they shared, and then he said, “You know, actually, I think I will share.” He was like– anyways, he had some concerns about sharing or not and he decided to share. What he said, I think, will always stay with me. But while he was sharing, he said, “This is the most pain I have felt in a long time, but I am sitting with it and I am letting myself feel it because I know it is the fastest way for me to get through it.” I was like, “Yes. Yes.” Sitting with that pain and that hurt and that discomfort is hard. It is so hard. So, so, so hard, but allowing yourself to sit with it and feel it and hurt and suffer is going to be the fastest way for you to get through that suffering. It's going to shorten the amount of time you have to suffer and it's going to stop it from controlling your life– maybe not right now. Probably not right now, but as you move on and as you go throughout your life, if you don't let yourself sit in that pain and struggle, then it will continue to control you and you will continue to be miserable. I just thought that was so impactful that he said that. I know that is the fastest way for me to get through this is to feel it. Meagan: Yeah, and that's scary, right? That's scary to say, “I'm going to open up and I'm going to welcome this pain.” Julie: And be vulnerable and receive it and hurt from it. Meagan: Yes. Women of Strength, as you are going through your births, you may run into this where you feel cheated or lied to or you are starting to question your own decisions or whatever. We've had an undesired birth outcome or experience and we hurt. They sting. They sting. But it's okay to one, sit with it like she said, and two, be vulnerable and be mad or angry or sad. It's okay to feel the feelings and then it's okay to have radical acceptance and move on. It's okay if it doesn't happen overnight. I love that. He sat with it or he's sitting with it. It's the fastest way for him to heal. Julie: Yeah, because he's a therapist, right? He obviously knows a thing or two. But sometimes it's hard even when we know. Meagan: Even when we know. Yeah. Yeah. So as you walk away from this episode today or drive away or wherever you are listening, we hope you know that we love you. We love you and you need to love yourself too. Offer yourself grace. Sit with it. Sit with it and find radical acceptance. Julie: We wish that for you. Meagan: Mhmm. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“This is going to change the course of your life forever.”Ashley's first Cesarean was after a 48-hour labor at almost 42 weeks. She deeply desired and prepared for a VBAC with her second baby, but consented to a second Cesarean after another 48-hour labor at just over 41 weeks. With her third baby, Ashley pulled out all of the stops. She was committed to having a VBA2C in all the ways she knew and didn't know before. Perhaps the most impactful part of her preparation was processing fears more intentionally than ever before. She proactively went to therapy to heal from her previous births and to preemptively combat postpartum depression. She released the weight of failure and inadequacy that she didn't realize she was carrying.With exciting twists and turns, Ashley achieved everything she hoped she would in her third birth. She says that this VBAC experience has forever changed her and her belief in what she is capable of. Additional LinksBaby Bird Birth and Doula ServicesHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello you guys. We are at the end of August. I hope you guys have had a wonderful summer and that it's still great weather wherever you are listening from. We have our friend, Ashley, today and we are going to be sharing her stories. Something that we had requested or asked on Instagram is “What kind of episodes are you wanting to hear?” It seems that every time we ask that, a lot of people are saying, “VBAC after two Cesareans” and even extended to that, VBAC after three or even four multiple Cesareans. So today we have a VBAC after two Cesarean story. As always, we've got to get into a review but I am really wanting to talk because there is something about Ashley that she wrote in her bio. She said, “Her birth experiences have given her the passion for all things pregnancy, birth, and postpartum and have even led her to be a doula.” I just resonate so much with that because that's exactly how I became a doula, Ashley. I think that's how a lot of us in the birth world find that passion and that drive to support and help. So congratulations on becoming a doula and finding your passion through all of these experiences. Ashley: Thank you. Meagan: I full-on believe but I sometimes say that we experience these not-so-desired birth outcomes, right? Not-so-desired birth outcomes, but sometimes I think that we have those because we are meant to do something more and meant to experience those to help inspire and encourage and empower someone in the future. So congratulations on all of that. I am so excited for you to join the doula world. It's a journey, but it's awesome. Ashley: Yes, I'm excited. Thank you. Meagan: Yes. And then a little snippet also, a little secret– by the time this episode airs, she's probably going to be holding a newborn because her due month is August. That's really, really exciting. I'm just going to congratulate you right now in advance. Review of the WeekWe also have a review, of course. This review is from– I actually don't even know how to say this– I'm going to spell it out. It's bshsjbxbd. The title is “Life Changing.” It says, “This podcast is AMAZING. I just had my VBAC two months ago and I can honestly say that it is thanks to everything I've learned by listening obsessively to this podcast and joining this community. I am still listening even after my VBAC because I love hearing the stories of these amazing women and the loving support the hosts offer. Julie and Meagan clearly care so much about what they do and it feels like they truly care about each and every mama they talk to and connect through with the podcast and the community. I recommend this podcast to everyone who will listen when they are going for a VBAC. An amazing resource for those of us who are on our upcoming journeys to birth after a Cesarean. Thank you, thank you, thank you.”And thank you, bshsjbxbd, for your review. We always love your reviews coming in. If you haven't had a chance, I will never shy away from asking for a review. Your reviews are actually what helps people just like you listening to find this podcast. It is what helps the algorithm and especially in Apple Podcasts and on Google. It helps the algorithm know that people like hearing these stories and want to give you more. So if you haven't had a chance, leave us a review. We would love it so much. Ashley's StoriesMeagan: Okay, cute Ashley. Welcome to the show. Ashley: Thanks. I'm so excited. I'm so grateful. Meagan: I'm so grateful for you. VBAC after two Cesareans is so hard because I'm sure as you know through this journey– both of us specifically are VBAC after two Cesarean moms– it can be a really hard road. It can be really hard and really lonely, so we don't want anyone to feel that. I think that through sharing stories and relating, it's going to help people out there know that they're not alone and it is possible. Ashley: Yeah, 100%. I don't know that I would have been able to achieve that without listening to all of the podcasts and searching your site religiously. There is so much power in sharing your story. Meagan: There really is. There really is. Well, let's turn the time over to you to share your stories. Ashley: Cool, well thanks. I'll try to keep it pretty concise but as you know, there's a lot of background that you have to get to. We dealt with infertility for about five years. It was really unexplained. There was no specific reason. I actually had a bilateral ectopic at one point. Meagan: Oh, okay. Ashley: One of two they were able to repair. With the other, I had to have that one removed. So when I miraculously got pregnant in May of 2015, we were shocked and over the moon and just super, super grateful. Really, from the beginning, I knew that I just wanted a husband-coached natural birth. We did the Bradley Method class and we created this cute little birth plan to share with our provider. I really had a healthy and normal pregnancy and I thought, “I know what I want, so I'm going to get it.” C-section didn't come out of my mouth. It wasn't on the birth plan. It just wasn't anywhere around. Then at 40 weeks and at 41 weeks and at 41.5 weeks, the appointments showed nothing of concern, but I still had an unfavorable cervix. At all of those appointments, we had to sign an AMA saying that we did not want to get induced. We kept trying to do normal, regular things. Then on March 1st, I was 41+5. I woke up with a slight abdominal pain. I just did the normal routine. I went for a walk and all of the things we were doing. I did have a dance party that day instead of my normal yoga. I was like, “Let's get this started. Let's get moving.” Then those pains intensified throughout the afternoon and I finally was willing to call them contractions at some point that evening. They were about five minutes apart and we decided to go to the hospital. And like normal, not normal but for a lot of people, I got to the hospital and everything stopped. We decided to go home, but a nurse told us that because I was about 42 weeks and it would be against medical advice, my insurance would not cover my labor and delivery cost if we went home and then tried to come back. Whether that is true or not, at this point it is 3:00 in the morning and we are like, “What do we do? I don't know.” So we were like, “Let's just hunker down and just try to relax a little bit then in the morning try to get labor moving again.” So that was what we did. We decided to stay at the hospital. At about 8:00 the next morning, my OB came in and she wanted to strip my membranes. She accidentally broke my bag of water at the same time. I refused any other interventions at this point except they said that they did require that I have an IV and some monitoring. So after a lot of pressure from every nurse that came in the room and my OB, we agreed to a Pitocin drip at about 5:00 PM. Then I labored throughout the night. Things got super intense at about 2:00 in the morning. I was frantic. I remembered feeling like I couldn't handle the pain. I remember that the room was pitch dark and I'm just laying in the bed super frantic, super exhausted, no idea what to do. I tried getting in the tub. I hated it with all of the wires and the monitors around me so I just hated it. The nurse suggested that I try Benadryl to help me rest. I didn't rest but I got super groggy and I think that just made it worse. I was just physically, mentally, and emotionally– it was bad. There was all of this constant pressure to do things that I did want to do or I didn't want to do. I just felt so isolated and frustrated. I was dilated to about a 7 the next morning. It was 7:00 AM and I agreed to an epidural just to try to relax and get some rest and some relief. Then my OB came in and checked me. She said that my cervix was swollen at that point and that I started to regress.  Knowing what I wanted, she said that she was going to try to hold open my cervix and let me push. I tried but nothing really happened. Looking back, I'm like, “I don't know if she thought that would really help or if she was trying to appease me and try to give me a little bit of a confidence boost or something. I don't know.” At this point, I'm in labor for about 48 hours. I'm done. I was out of it. She highly recommended a C-section and I remember before I signed the paperwork, I looked at her and said, “Will you let me try for a vaginal next time?” I already knew. Again, also looking back, I'm like, “I can't believe I asked her permission.” But we do because we think that it is in someone else's control. Meagan: We do. Yes, yes. Ashley: So anyway, we had a gentle, normal, healthy C-section. Perfectly healthy baby girl. Recovery was fine. It was normal. It was good, but I had that defeat in my head and in my heart. It just stayed there and I moved on. So then about two years later, in January 2018, I was pregnant again thankfully and we moved. That first birth was in Florida and we moved to Michigan which is where we are now. I did a lot of research just on social media and things like that to try to find who is the VBAC-friendly provider in our area. I was super excited when I got in with one of the most VBAC-friendly practices in the Grand Rapids area. I was really happy that I could work with their midwife team for a VBAC. This time I just felt like I did more research and that I knew what went wrong last time, so I was like, “The same thing is not going to happen. I know what happened. Been there, done that. Moving on.” But that was kind of all we did. I did a couple of meditations. I read a couple of more books. I just was like, “I think we've got it.” Then 40 weeks came. 41 weeks came again. I just felt like– you know, from providers that you start feeling the pressure, especially with VBAC. Meagan: You do. Ashley: So then at my 41-week appointment, we denied the induction again. We endured a pretty fear-based lecture from the OB that was practicing there, but he did do a membrane sweep at that appointment. A couple of days later, nothing had happened. He did another membrane sweep and then I was like, “Okay.” I started getting that frantic feeling again. He did the membrane sweep. I went straight to acupuncture. I went straight home and had a castor oil lunch. Then contractions started about an hour later. They were about three minutes apart the entire night and then the next morning, my parents arrived from out of state to watch our daughter and things stopped. They pretty much totally stopped. We went on a long walk. I did more castor oil. I took a nap and woke up with super intense contractions so I felt like, “Okay. It's time we call the midwife.” She was like, “Try to just do what you can at home until things are unbearable.” I got in the bathtub at home and that's when I remember things caving in. Mentally and emotionally, I went totally dark. The fear of things I hadn't totally worked through from the first birth just came tumbling in. I remember laying in the bathtub being like, “I'm done. I can't do it. I can't. I can't do this the way that I want to.” We did end up going to the hospital. We were admitted there at about 6:00 PM and I was dilated to a 5 so that was a little bit reassuring at that point. But as we got to the hospital and all of the tests and the monitoring and all of that stuff, I just was so scared. The fear and the worry and all of the anxiousness crept back in. I did agree to an epidural again even though that wasn't something that I had originally planned. I just felt like I needed something to help calm me down. At around 11:00 that night, I was dilated to an 8. I tried to rest. We did some nipple stim. The next morning with little progression, I did start Pitocin at about 10:00 AM. I just remember being in the bed. The midwife would come in and we would try a couple of different positions, but that was really it. I didn't know any different. We didn't have a doula with us. My husband is a great support, but we didn't know what else to do. I ended up trying to push. I pushed for about two hours because my midwife thought that I was ready for that. There was no progression. I remember her saying that the baby's position was why he wouldn't descend. Again, looking back now, I'm like, “Oh, yeah. That makes sense,” but at the time, I'm like, “I don't know what that means. I don't know what to do about that.” So later, after I pushed for a couple of hours like I said, the OB came in, the same one who gave us the scary talk. He came in and he offered a vacuum, forceps, or a C-section. I think at that point, again, I was in labor for 48ish hours at that point and just tired. A C-section felt like the thing that I knew. I didn't do the research on the other things and I didn't have a great relationship with him, so I was like, “Let's do the C-section,” so we moved to the C-section. It was the same experience. It was gentle. It was safe and healthy and everything went fine. Our little guy was born at 9:00 at night. He had some breathing issues but nothing of concern. It was great. But this time, I struggled mentally for months after that with just that feeling like I failed again. I don't know if I'm going to ever get a chance again to have my VBAC or to redeem what I thought was possible for myself and for my family. Anyways, two years later in May of 2020 in the middle of the pandemic, we had a third miracle pregnancy and again, it was a very healthy, normal pregnancy. I decided to stay with the same practice because one, I knew that they were still one of the most VBAC-friendly practices, however, their midwife team is not able to support VBACs after two C-sections. Meagan: Just after two C-sections. Ashley: Mhmm, yep. I listened to an episode of The VBAC Link and there was someone on who is from this area. I ended up connecting with her and she told me about a great OB who worked who now had transferred into this practice that I was at. She was amazing so I was able to work with her instead of the other person who again, is a great provider but I just wanted a little bit of a different experience. Meagan: Right. Ashley: This new OB was a doula actually before she got into obstetrics. I just felt so much at ease and comfort with her. I remember her telling me, “You're in charge.” She would offer me things or tell me and give me information and then she would say, “You're in charge.” That changed the game for me. It just made me realize, “Oh, you're right. I am.” Meagan: It's crazy to think what the words, “You are in charge” did for you. Ashley: Yeah. It was amazing. I knew that with this birth, I was like, “This is my chance to get the VBAC.” We didn't know if we would have any more kids. I pulled out all of the stops. I hired a doula finally. My husband and I were on the same page. He's always been really supportive of what I want, but we had to sit down and have some pretty in-depth conversations about why I wanted it and why it was so important. I listened to every VBAC Link episode and every Evidence Based Birth episode. I did as much research and educating myself as I could. I started chiropractic care. I did Spinning Babies and nightly meditations. I started mental health counseling. At the time, I did it mainly because I think looking back, after my second, I went through a pretty intense period of postpartum depression. I didn't know it at the time, but I knew that this time, I needed to get ahead of it so I connected with a counselor just so I had that relationship built for after my third baby. What I didn't realize until after I started therapy was the mental block that I had from those first two births and so much defeat, failure, and fear. They were so heavy and I quickly realized them after just getting into regular therapy sessions. My therapist really helped me work through a lot of that which I am so thankful for. So fast forward through all of that prep that we do for months and months, this time I was like, “Okay. I'm sure I'm going to go to 42 weeks. That's just what my body does and I'm cool with it. It's going to be fine.”Meagan: Right. Right. Ashley: I went in for my 40-week appointment. Everything was normal except I did have a slightly elevated blood pressure which was abnormal for me. We did the NST. They did lab work and then I agreed to a membrane sweep. My OB was a little bit concerned that if my blood pressure would continue to rise or continue to be elevated then I would need an induction so she thought that the sweep would be the most gentle way to just try to get started. I was already dilated to a 3 so she was like, “I think it's a safe way to go. It's not too much intervening,” so I felt good about that.I did really normal things for the next 48 hours. With the other two, I got the frantic, “Let's get started.” Castor oil is a pretty intense thing, so this time I stayed away from that. I did a lot of inversions and curb walking. I went to the chiropractor and then at my next appointment, everything was normal. Blood pressure was back to normal and I was so thankful. I went home. That 40-week appointment was a Wednesday and we had a couple of days. Then on Sunday morning, I woke up and I had some slight contractions so I went for a super long walk. I did a lot of curb walking. I started an abbreviated or my own version of Miles Circuit just to keep things moving along. Contractions became pretty regular around 2:00 that afternoon. I was still hesitant to call it labor because I had experienced such long labors before that I was like, “Eh, this is a long road.” Meagan: Right. You're like, “Whatever. We've got this.”Ashley: But I did ask my husband to come home. He was at work and I asked him to come home just to help with the other two. That was about 4:00. I was like, “I just need to focus. I need to get in my space.” He took them to Target and they roamed around Target. I stayed home. I sat on my birth ball. I put my birth playlist on and I actually colored pictures for them just to calm myself and get in the right frame of mind. By the time they got home, I was just laying in bed trying to relax through the contractions. I managed to make it to dinner and have dinner with them and help with the bedtime routine, but I had to keep stopping through reading them their bedtime story just to breathe. After that, I just moved to our bedroom and I was really struggling. I was laying in bed and just walking around the bedroom. I remember that I felt sick but hungry, but cold, but hot and all of these different feelings were coming in. I had to just lean into my husband and hold onto him through every contraction. We did that for about an hour and he was like, “I think we'd better at least call the doula.” I was like, “Okay, okay.” She just listened over the phone to a few contractions and I remember her saying, “I think it might be time to go into the hospital.” Even though I was really struggling to cope with the contractions, I was super against going in because with my other two, I got to the hospital and everything stopped. I was like, “I'm not doing that.” Things kept progressing through. It was probably another hour and so I finally agreed, “Okay. Let's go in.” My husband was making arrangements for someone to come stay with our kids and pack the car. My water broke. I hadn't had that spontaneous experience before so that was kind of cool. He helped me get changed and get into the car. I remember I couldn't sit down. I was kneeling over the front seat on my knees and he was like, “This is probably going to be the hardest part of the whole labor, the drive to the hospital.” I was ready to push. I remember yelling the whole time, “I'm ready to push.” He was like, “It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. We're almost there.” He's driving through– it was February and there was a snowstorm here. He was trying to stay as calm as possible. We pull up to triage. It was about 9:50 PM. I got into my wheelchair still on my knees. They wheeled me in and I'm like, “I'm ready to push. I'm ready to push!” yelling at whoever was with me. A nurse checked me in the wheelchair. She came running out and checked me. Meagan: Turned around just backward.Ashley: Yeah. I heard her yell, “She's complete!” I was like, “Thank you, God.” It was the best thing that I could have ever heard. They wheeled me into a delivery room and they helped me onto the hospital bed. I was on all fours and I just started pushing. At that point, everything is kind of a blur. I was so focused on just pushing her out. I knew everybody there was looking at me like, “Is she going to do this? Is this actually going to happen?” I knew that until I was holding her in my arms, a C-section was still a possibility. Meagan: Yeah. Ashley: It was never off the table and I was like, “I've come this far. We're doing this.” I do remember that I got a saline lock. At one point, they put a monitor on baby's head. My doula put my hair up for me. They kept giving me oxygen to help me breathe. People kept urging me to change positions and I was like, “Nope. I'm good right here. I'm not moving.” My OB made it there for about 10 minutes of pushing and helped me through the last few pushes and then I heard her say, “The baby's head was out and then her body,” and then I just reached down and pulled her up and yeah. It was amazing. Absolutely amazing. Meagan: Absolutely. That's so flipping cool that you could get there and be that far progressed. For you mentally, I'm sure– like you said, “I knew it wasn't off the table,” but that had to have just been so huge and put you in a space. Even when they were doing all of these things, you were able to stay in your space and keep going. 10 minutes! Ashley: Yeah. It was crazy. I remember after things, I had pretty significant blood loss and pretty severe tearing just because it was so fast, but my husband said, “This is going to change the course of your life forever.” And he's right. It does because when you follow your intuition, right? And you really experience something so redeeming like that, that can change you. So yeah. I'm really grateful. Meagan: Yeah. It totally does change you. I hadn't had my baby yet. I was still in labor and I remember one of my doulas saying, “If this doesn't go the way she is wanting, I'm worried about what she's going to do with her career and if she's going to be able to keep going,” because I wanted it so badly. Then I had my VBAC and everyone was like, “This just changed you forever. This just totally did something for you.” I remember that it's the weirdest thing. It's really hard for me to describe, but to have a birth– and it's not even just a VBAC in general– but to have a birth where you feel like you were more in the driver's seat and more in control and like you said, following that intuition and trusting your whole soul, there's something to say with that. There's a power that that gave me. Ashley: Yep. Absolutely. Meagan: And it did. It's changed my life for the long term. It's just so amazing. It's so amazing. Ashley: And look at all of the community that you guys have built. Meagan: Yeah. Ashley: Your experiences have changed so many people's lives. It's just really cool. Meagan: It's really cool how it all circles around. And every single one of these stories– I mean, we're hearing it through these reviews how these stories are changing people's lives. This community and I may be biased, but there is something about this VBAC/CBAC community that is so special. We are so vulnerable.Ashley: I think so. I think also, people don't really get it. I mean, I have a great family and friends, but there aren't many that understand it. Meagan: There aren't, yeah. Ashley: So to be able to come somewhere like this and find other people who really get it and it's really important to them and it's really valuable and it just creates this sense of confidence and meaning. Meagan: Absolutely. It's so true. I remember that there were very few. I could count on one hand people that I could really go to. I love the people that would listen. I would always want a listening ear, but these guys didn't just listen. They heard and they felt. They felt it when I said, “I don't know what I should do. I have this provider, but I'm feeling called to this out-of-hospital birth. What should I do?” They could feel the struggle that I was going through. They could feel the desire, the want, and the hurt. I had a mother's blessing and I will never forget. I was in constant chills because I could feel their energy. Ashley: Yeah. That's amazing. Meagan: This community is absolutely amazing and you are amazing and then you're just going to keep going on. You're going to have this other VBAC and then you're going to keep going on as a doula inspiring. That's one of the reasons too why we love having our doula community. We have our certified doulas. When Julie was with me, she and I couldn't change the VBAC world. We're just here in Utah. Through this community and all of these birth workers out there and all of these parents inspiring, we have people on our team that haven't even had a VBAC and they're like, “Hey guys, did you know that this is an option? Did you know that this is a thing?” It's so cool the conversations that are sparked and can change someone's outcome completely. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing your story. Good luck right now and congrats in advance. And yes! Do you have a doula page yet where people can go follow you?Ashley: I do. Yeah, yeah thank you. It's Baby Bird Birth and Doula Services. So yeah. I have a website and Facebook and Instagram and everything. I'm getting things kicked off and I'm very, very excited to really start working with other families and helping them realize that your intuition is powerful. Your birth experience really matters. Meagan: It really does. It really does. It is not that it matters of the method, but the experience is impactful. Ashley: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Meagan: Right? Well, thank you so much again. Ashley: Thank you. I really appreciate your time and everything that you guys do. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Kimberly Spair does it all! She holds a Ph.D. in Holistic Natural Health and Nutrition along with lots of additional certifications and degrees, all of which have helped her create an amazing career around helping others find holistic healing. Dr. Spair specifically helps postpartum women find ways to naturally combat symptoms like anxiety, exhaustion, and overall depletion. She is a VBAC mama herself and knows personally what kind of support birthing women deserve. Dr. Spair is so lovely and gracious. We know you will love this episode like we do!Additional LinksDr. Kimberly Spair's WebsiteFree Postpartum RecipesNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. We have a special episode for you today. We have our friend, Dr. Kimberly Spair. Is that correct? Did I say it correctly? Dr. Spair: That's correct. Yep. Meagan: Okay. That's how I say it in my head. Sometimes I say it and it's totally wrong. Dr. Spair: Yep. You've got it. Nope. Meagan: I said your name wrong like three times. Kimberly. Let me start sounding it out.Dr. Spair: You've got it. Meagan: You guys, she's amazing. I was really drawn to her page a while ago because of something I had seen. I think it was a post about nutrition. Nutrition is something that is huge for me. I saw such a change when I dialed in on my nutrition, especially for my VBAC. I really dialed deeply into nutrition for my VBAC. I do believe that it helped me so much. So as I started digging into her and following her posts more, I was like, “I love her. She's amazing.” So it is so awesome to have you today on the podcast. Dr. Spair: I am so excited and I love looking at your pages because you've got all of the statistics to give moms that home. The moms, and the resources like, “Oh, I had a C-section? Guess what, I can still have a vaginal birth.” I love it. I've been quoting you left and right in my posts so I'm glad we're here today. Meagan: Well, thank you. We actually just shared one of your posts which was amazing. So you guys, definitely want to check her out. We're going to have all of her links in the show notes today. Review of the WeekWe do have a Review of the Week today and then we are going to dive into this yummy episode. This is from wallabygirl and the subject is “We Got Our VBAC”. It says, “Meagan and Julie, after my first birth turned into a C-section, I knew that I wanted to try for a VBAC with my next baby. When we found out that we were pregnant in January 2022, my husband and I started doing a ton of research. I found The VBAC Link Podcast and was so inspired and encouraged. I love the mix of data, birth stories, and interviews with experts in the field of your podcast shares.”Well, guess what? That is exactly what today's episode is. A podcast with a VBAC story and data and amazing information from a professional. It says, “I listened to your podcast on my commute to and from work and learned so much. My husband and I took Spinning Babies and I started seeing an amazing chiropractor who specializes in pregnancy and bodywork. Our midwives and OB team were so supportive and awesome and the podcast helped us know the right questions to ask. Finally, after a long labor and an unmedicated delivery, we welcomed our baby girl postdates at 41 weeks + 1 day.” That was in September of 2022. It says, “I feel amazing and I cried when I got home and was able to pick up my two-year-old son. Thank you, thank you for this awesome podcast. I will be continuing to listen and highly recommend this valuable information for friends and family.” I love reviews like that, wallabygirl. Thank you so much for leaving that review. And if you haven't had a chance to leave a review, push pause right now. Head over to Google, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you are listening, and leave us a review. Dr. Kimberly SpairMeagan: Okay, Dr. Kimberly. Dr. Spair: I have to say you know you're in the right field. That review just gave me goosebumps and tears not just because I've seen so many VBACs now but it took me back to the first time that I VBAC'd. It's just a full body, tears, chills, emotion, and all of it. It's the best. It's the best. I love that. Meagan: I know that. Anytime we get these reviews or when we're doing consults because we have one-on-one consults as well. We work with people and they tell us the update. It just makes me so happy seriously down to the core to hear these amazing people being inspired. Even if it doesn't end in a VBAC, right? Dr. Spair: I love that. They're still empowered. Meagan: They are empowered and educated along the way so we are making the choices and sometimes we know. We are going to talk about how sometimes emergency Cesareans happen and sometimes they're out of our control but if we can feel empowered along the way, it truly does help our outcome in the postpartum stage which again, we're going to talk about today. You guys, we have such a great episode for you. So, Dr. Kimberly, I would love to turn the time over to you and just let you share your story and how you got going. Dr. Spair: All right. So why I'm here is because I've had two VBACs myself. My first birth, I was planning for a natural birth. I had the Webster Chiropractic. I did the Hypnobabies. I was doing prenatal yoga. All the things. Massage. I just wanted this beautiful water birth. That's what I was planning. For my first birth, I decided to birth in a birth center. Thank God it was attached to a hospital at the time. My pregnancy was beautiful. I had no issues. When I was 37 weeks, I stepped out of the shower one day and my water broke all over the bathroom floor. I called my midwife and I said, “My water broke.” She said, “You probably peed.” I'm like, “Nope, I'm pretty sure I didn't pee. It literally was a burst all over the floor.” I went into the midwife's office. She was like, “Yeah, I don't really think your water broke. I don't think you're in labor.” Okay, I went home. I was having all of these contractions. Again, I was a first-time mom. I didn't really know what was going on. I also was doing Hypnobabies so my threshold was in a good place with it.Long story short, the day progressed and I'm still thinking, “Man. These are a lot of Braxton Hicks. Something's going on.” I called the midwife again. This was 8-9 hours later. She was like, “All right. Head over to the birth center.” I go to the birth center. They're like, “You're not in labor. You're dilated but your water didn't break.” They used those little strips. They're like, “You know, you're water didn't break.” Okay. I go home. Now, it's 3:00 in the morning and I wake my husband up. I'm like, “We've got to go now. We've got to go now.” So we get in the car and had a 45-minute drive. I didn't know until after but I went through transition in the car. Meagan: Okay. Dr. Spair: I got out of the birth center and I stood up and my son's leg was out. Literally out. I waddled into the hospital. I should have started with this. I don't like to share war birth stories with moms that are about to give birth so I should have said before I started if you are about to give birth, listen to this later. I don't like to scare moms. It's such a rare occurrence that these kind of situations happen. Emergencies do happen and when emergencies happen, we are so grateful for modern medicine and we're glad that we were okay. My son, I'll go back to the story in a minute, but I just wanted to say that if you're a mom that's ready to give birth, don't listen to any negative stories. So anyway, I got out of the car. My son's leg was out. I waddled into the birth center. The midwife on call came in and she's like, “Yeah. You're 10 centimeters.” Then all of a sudden, everyone was like, “Don't push!” They're screaming at me. She was like, “Can I just wiggle him out? What do we think is going to happen here?” And he was stuck. So leg out and his body was basically–Meagan: Doing the splits. Dr. Spair: He was in a split. If they would have tried to let him come out vaginally, he would have broken his hip, his leg, his shoulder, and maybe his neck. Meagan: Complications. Dr. Spair: It was a very, very complicated situation. So of course, it was the coldest day of the year and there's no doctor in this birth center even though it's attached to a hospital. So they were like, “All right. We've got to get to the OR now.” They're prepping me. They're screaming at me not to push. I'm traumatized completely because here I'm thinking that I'm having this beautiful water birth. It's going to be peaceful and nice. Here I am strapped down to the table which I never knew was a thing until I went through it myself. They're saying to me, “If the doctor doesn't get here soon, we're going to have to knock you out.” I'm like, “Knock me out? What is happening?” Long story short, my son came. Thank God he was fine and I was fine but it was one of the most traumatic things that I have ever been through in my life. The healing was really hard. I remember trying to change my newborn son's diaper and being in excruciating pain. All around, I just had this postpartum, we were just talking about this how people say postpartum depression, but to me, it was postpartum depletion.Especially after a C-section, we're so depleted because we've had all of these medications and all of these interventions. We're not getting that natural oxytocin that we get with a vaginal birth because your baby's right on your chest and you can nurse right away. There are gentle C-sections, but in my case, they took the baby. I had some complications. He had a fever. There was a lot going on because my water did break. It was broken for all of those hours that they kept saying, “Your water didn't break. Your water didn't break.” My water did break and my son had an infection. So the bottom line is that I ended up with a C-section even though I was planning for this beautiful, natural birth. Again, I do believe that God gives us these situations because it makes us who we are and just like you shared, we go through– that's why I share my other birth stories. I have experienced a lot of different birth scenarios and I think it helps us relate to other women who are going through similar things. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a really unique thing about us here at The VBAC Link. Me and my team have all of these unique situations where we can really personally relate. Dr. Spair: Yes. You personally relate. But then I like to bring women back to say that if you are someone that is planning a natural birth, a home birth, or whatever, these situations are really rare. Like yes, I went through it. Yes, she went through it, but it's not that we shouldn't be trusting our bodies and knowing that they know what to do. Just that emergencies can happen just like with anything. Things can happen and we're grateful for lifesaving measures when necessary. Now, are C-sections overdone and are they done just because it's Christmas morning and the doctor wants to get home? I mean, that's a whole other conversation about how C-sections are definitely performed way too often. Moms who have had one C-section are basically put into this box of, “Okay, you've had a C-section. Now you should have another C-section. Now you've had two C-sections. You definitely should have another C-section. Why would you even try to have a natural birth after that?” Meagan: Yeah. Dr. Spair: I love that you share that you had two and then you had a vaginal birth. That's just incredible and I think that provides a lot of hope even for my community. It's never too late to trust your body and give it a shot. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Spair: So then two and a half years later, I got pregnant again and I'm like, “I'm going to have a VBAC. I want to have this natural, beautiful birth.” And I did. I had my daughter right next to the hospital. It was a home birth but it was not in my own home. Because of the state that I live in, I actually had to cross state lines. And that's another thing. People say to me all of the time, my women will say, “Oh, well near my house, there's not this resource or there's not that resource.” Sometimes we have to go get the resources. The state that I live in does not allow VBACs to happen outside of the hospital, so I went to another state. These are things that we can make happen if it's that important that we don't go through another C-section. For me, I knew that if I went through another C-section, I never would have had a third child. It was that traumatic for me. It was that hard to heal from. It was something that I never wanted to experience again and I knew if it happened a second time that I was done. I knew that I wanted more babies. So my second one was a home birth VBAC literally a mile, two miles from a hospital at a location with midwives and it was a beautiful, healing birth. He was 42.3 weeks and that's the other thing I would love to talk about. People who get induced at 38-39 weeks depending on what's going on, 41– oh my gosh. We have to give medication. When you wait until your body is ready and your baby is ready, your chances of having a natural birth, especially a VBAC, go way up. Way up. My third birth was a VBAC at home right here, right over there in a pool right in my own bedroom. I went from a very traumatic, horrendous birth to a second birth where I was hanging onto hope but I was still a little nervous about this whole situation, to a third birth where my midwives literally got here at 11:00 at night and I stepped into my pool and at 1:08, my baby was here. I was in labor all day long. I was at the park with the kids. They were scootering around. I was walking. I was doing squats on all of the play equipment. I cooked dinner. I was just holding the counter going through my pressure waves. I took a shower and was oiling up my belly and the whole thing. I went down and had a snack. I'm on the ball. The kids are with me and then I was like, “It's time to go upstairs.” They got here. I went through a couple of birthing waves. I got in the birthing pool and there she was. There she was. It was beautiful. With the third one, I truly visualized my birth and this is part of what I'm going to be helping women do in the future. It's a whole visualization process because it's so true when you can take your fears which, with that first VBAC, I had fears of all of the things because they brainwash you into thinking you're crazy and that you actually want to go ahead and do that. But I love seeing your statistics because it's like, wait. You actually have a better chance of a VBAC. But what I was going to say is the process of visualizing what you want your birth to be like is so powerful. That's what I want women to hang onto. Even if you come into a situation where interventions have to happen or the birth plan changes because they do, coming from an empowered and relaxed state is completely different than showing up at the hospital in this raging fear, terrified mode. There's so much to be said about the education and the empowerment piece when it comes to successful VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. Yeah. I think, like you were saying, there are so many people out there, not just providers. Providers are sharing things and sometimes they share things that may sound fluffed a little bit because of maybe one of their experiences so they have trauma. Dr. Spair: Yeah. Always. Meagan: They see these things and sometimes the way they say them is like, “Oh, whoa. That's really scary. Maybe I am scary.” Then they twist our thinking. But it's not just providers. Many people out there– friends or family. Dr. Spair: Family. All the time. Yep. Yes. Meagan: Everybody, right? I mean, I was in a VBAC-supportive group on Facebook and I was still being told, “How would you even?” It's so hard so that's why it's so important for us to really learn those stats and then figure out what's acceptable to us. Dr. Spair: Yes. Meagan: What's acceptable to us?Dr. Spair: What risk is acceptable and then how can I make myself feel comfortable? My second birth was a VBAC. I didn't want to be in the hospital, but I live very far from a hospital, so what can I do to make myself feel comfortable? If I'm a mile away from the hospital and something goes wrong, am I okay with that? I'm right there. For some moms, it's a VBAC in a hospital situation. What would make me feel comfortable? Meet that with your risk. That way, you're not in a situation where you're feeling fear and trying to birth because that doesn't work either. We have to be comfortable and confident with the decisions that we're making. I think that women out there are swayed in all of these different directions. They're either in the category of a C-section camp over here, repeat C-section, or in the natural birth community which I will say that the natural birth community, after you have a C-section, is extremely unsupportive. Even if you are a mom, like I was my first time, I was planning for this beautiful, natural birth and after, it's like, “What did you do wrong?” It's like, “Wait. I didn't do anything wrong. An emergency happened and I had a C-section because it saved my son's life.” There's a time and a place for that but you feel this guilt from this community that's looking at you like, “Oh, you didn't have this rainbow and butterfly birth?”Meagan: Oh yeah. I will never forget the feeling that I had when my second birth, I was going for a VBAC and I didn't obviously end up in a VBAC. I ended up in a repeat Cesarean. I will never forget the feeling inside of my head of, “Great. Now, I have to tell people and they're all going to think I failed.” Especially those people who didn't support me in this in the beginning. They're going to be like, “Yeah, I could have told you that five months ago.” I just remember that feeling and then when I talked about it, I did get some comments like that. Dr. Spair: Yes. Yep. Meagan: I encourage our community to never be that person. Dr. Spair: Whichever way you end up in your birth, birth outcomes are birth outcomes. Women need to be supported no matter what they decide. No matter what they decide. Even if they are in a fear-filled state and they choose a C-section again, we have to support those women too. Meagan: Yes. Dr. Spair: Even if we don't agree with that choice because a woman who is giving birth whether it's vaginally or Cesarean, they're a mom and they have to feel loved and supported so they can love and support that infant. Tearing women down in this very, very vulnerable state that we are in after we give birth is setting them up for postpartum depletion, depression, anxiety, fear, and all of these crazy things that again, women don't talk about. We put people in this camp of, “Oh, well you're just anxious. You're just depressed.” Meagan: This is normal. You just had a baby and this is what you're supposed to experience because you're tired. No. Dr. Spair: No. You're depleted. You're depleted. It's depleted in nutrition, depleted in sleep, depleted in resources, depleted in support. Sometimes it's just someone to say to you, “You did a great job. You brought this baby into this world. You went through Hell. You can't even laugh or sit up but you did a great job.”It is hard when you have people surrounding you and say, “Well, see? You ended up with a C-section.” It's almost like they're proud to tell you that you failed at what you were going for. I had that experience too. Meagan: Exactly. Yes. That is how I felt from a lot of people and then when I chose to VBAC after two Cesareans, oh boy. Dr. Spair: Oh gosh, now you're really in trouble. Meagan: Now I'm a nutso, right? It's so hard. I just encourage our community to build one another up. I've made posts on this. I challenge every single one of you to love everyone for who they are and what they decide even if it's not what you would decide, right? Dr. Spair: Yes, exactly. Meagan: Let's dive more into what you do and talk about that postpartum and how we don't talk about it enough. We don't share. Dr. Spair: We don't share. We don't talk about it. I have a practice primarily, well, almost all women. I do say that I get the husbands and the sons when women heal and they go through something. I work a lot with women with chronic illness, postpartum, and those kinds of things. When they heal, they do send me their husbands and their sons, but it's mostly women and a large majority of pregnant and postpartum moms. What I can say is 90% of postpartum women go through some type of depletion period. It's part of becoming a mom. When we go through a birth whether it's a C-section or a natural birth, there is a load of adrenaline that happens. Massive adrenaline. Massive cortisol as we are birthing a baby either way. It doesn't matter if it's a vaginal or surgical birth. What happens is that women become completely depleted especially if they don't have support. They don't have someone there cooking meals and making sure their toddler is taken care of. They're running around the house trying to do all of these things instead of resting. That whole thing “sleep when the baby is sleeping” is the silliest thing you've heard in your whole life because your kitchen would be covered in dishes and all of that. We all know that. Meagan: And then we feel anxious when we look at those kitchens. Dr. Spair: And then we're anxious when we look at that or we're anxious because our toddler is not being taken care of correctly or eating things that we don't want– those kinds of things. I think it comes down to women sharing and talking. Women postpartum have really crazy, irrational fears. We all, most of us, have had those feelings. When women talk about it, they think, “Oh my god. Someone's going to think I'm crazy because I'm sitting here watching my baby sleep all night long. People are going to diagnose me with PPA or all of the things because I'm going through this.” If women would just share so that other women could say, “Oh my gosh. I definitely went through that too. I felt that way too. I was terrified. I had those crazy thoughts where I was just afraid something bad would happen,” they would say, “Okay. This is part of postpartum. I'm just depleted. I need to nourish myself with nutrition. I need to make sure that I'm hydrated and I need to prioritize sleep someway, somehow, when I can.” I think a lot of our anxiety would go from here to down because we hold ourselves and compare ourselves to other women out there who may have a lot of other support or they may have someone that's taking care of their every need and not every woman has that, then we are afraid to talk about our experience when we're trying to hold up all of these different things. I remember with my first birth, my husband went back to work right away so it was just me and this newborn. I had a C-section. I had a straight staircase up and down and they're saying, “Don't go up the staircase.” I'm like, “Well, I've got a newborn.” I did set myself up downstairs so I could mostly be downstairs, but things happen. You run out of diapers, all the things. I had an enlarged uterus because I was going up and down those damn stairs even though I wasn't supposed to be. The dog is up there. So it's just a matter of really looking at support and then talking with other women, women that are honest though. Women that are in a place where they're comfortable sharing what they have gone through because a lot of women will just tell you, “Oh yeah, my birth was beautiful. It was la, la, la, la, la,” and they're not really going to share that peace about, “Oh, no.” Meagan: The vulnerable part. The vulnerable part. Dr. Spair: Yes, yes. Meagan: The stats show about 1 in 7 which I think is about 15% or so will actually be diagnosed. I think we sometimes hear that– you just said it again– they get scared to be diagnosed or labeled. Dr. Spair: Some women go through more than others, but for most women, it's just that TLC piece. If we had someone to really nourish us with the food we need to recover, I'm really big on infusions and herbs and teas, and those kinds of things. If we had that and we could set ourselves up, which is what I do. I help women to prepare for the postpartum period so that they can– I can't say that I'll eliminate it completely, but mitigate that and have those things on hand so that when they start to feel a little anxious, they know what to do. That's where it comes into play. Instead of going into this thing that women don't talk about postpartum, women don't really talk about the birth so much, they just talk about this beautiful baby and that's the great part. That's the amazing part but nobody really talks about walking around in a diaper for 3 weeks. Meagan: Right? Dr. Spair: But that scar and feeling that scar and peeing your pants and all of the things that women don't want to talk about. So that's my mission is when I have a mom who is newly pregnant, it's not a fear thing. It's just like, “Hey. You're a woman. I'm a woman. These are some of the things that a lot of women go through postpartum and it's normal. It's normal.” You go through it and you come out the other side. You really nourish your body. You'll feel like yourself again, but there is a period where we don't really quite feel like ourselves and that's okay too because you just birthed a human.” Meagan: Yeah. And it is okay. It's also okay to talk about when we don't feel normal or don't dismiss something because you think, “Oh, this is normal,” if you're having those scary thoughts. I had an adorable client that called me and she was really struggling. She said, “I'm not having scary thoughts about hurting my baby. I have this irrational fear of me dying.” Dr. Spair: Yep. A lot of women go through that. Meagan: Right? She was like, “I just need to talk about it.” We just talked and I just listened. After, she was like, “Oh, thank you.” It's like, if we're sitting there inside of our mind thinking such scary things like we're going to die– Dr. Spair: Yes. A lot of women go through that and then think that something will happen to their child. That happened to me after my first child. I was so afraid that something was going to happen to him that I was hyper-vigilant. That put me in a very anxious state. It wasn't depression. I wasn't sad. I had to be with him every second because I was afraid that something would happen. I think a lot of women go through that and they don't talk about it. Then you think something's wrong with you. You think something's wrong with your brain. Meagan: Yeah, a lot of times we are scared to talk about it because we're scared of being labeled or diagnosed with things. Dr. Spair: You don't want to be labeled or diagnosed or have someone trying to shove things down your throat, right?Meagan: Yeah. Let's talk about that. What are the steps to talking about it? You talked about herbs and teas and feeding. I love the analogy of depletion. Depression and depletion, right? Dr. Spair: We're just depleted. We're depleted. We don't have to stick a label on it. There's a huge thing around nursing moms and that depletion piece where they usually get this information of, “Okay, well you should just wean your baby and stop breastfeeding and focus on yourself,” where there are hormones involved for moms that choose to breastfeed. We have a lot of oxytocin just from being skin-to-skin when we are nursing our babies. So instead of saying, “I'm not going to do this now,” a lot of times, if moms get the right support and they choose to do the skin-to-skin and they nurse, they do start to feel better mentally because they are getting that oxytocin. It does bring the cortisol down when we nurse a baby. For me, it's always been an instinct. When I'm nursing a baby even now, if I go through something stressful and I nurse my kid, it's like, “Ahh.” You feel calmer. Now in the beginning, it's not always like that because it can be a struggle for women– the latch, the this, the tongue ties, the lip ties, this, that. We've got to get those things right and those are other things that I help to identify in women because that part can be challenging but once we get over that hump, those hormones are really important to our bodies, to our immune system, and to our recovery. If you're not a mom that's nursing, that skin-to-skin is still very important for that feel-good hormone production to help your brain feel better. Holding your baby tightly, skin-to-skin and all of that is just very, very, very important to how we feel. Yeah. It's definitely part of that. And then in terms of herbs and nutrition, a lot of us and I'll say us because I went through it myself the first time, we are so into this “Everything is about the baby. Everything is about the baby,” and I put myself aside. Meagan: We forget. We forget to take care of ourselves. Dr. Spair: We forget to take care of ourselves and we will go hours without eating or we aren't drinking and then we're nursing and we're using up all of this hydration and we're not replenishing. So we're dehydrated. We're having skyrocketing blood sugars and plummeting blood sugars because we're going so long without eating then we are eating a huge meal and then we're not eating again. When our blood sugar is down, or cortisol is up so we can have anxiety and jittering and things like that. What I always tell my moms is every two hours, make sure you're having something. Small bites, small sips. Make sure that something is going in. Even if it's, “Oh, I don't have time for myself,” make a big smoothie on your counter and every couple of hours, fill it up. Sip on it. Keep your blood sugar steady throughout the day. And then the things post-birth that I love– nettle infusions. People talk about nettle a lot, but they're using a tea bag. I'm talking about an infusion in a mason jar. A couple of tablespoons of herbs that you soak for a good hour or two and you're sipping on it. That's like an infusion. That's a vitamin and mineral infusion. When we say that we are depleted post-birth, we lose blood when we give birth. Even if it's a natural birth, we are still losing blood so we are depleted in minerals. We are depleted in vitamins. So nettle infusions and I like the raspberry too because it helps to tone the uterus which means those post-birth contractions. So infusions with red raspberry leaf and nettle is a wonderful tonic for all women, not just to balance the hormones and to help with breastmilk, but to also help to give us back some of– we've really done a job of growing a baby and we're depleted. The other thing that I love post-birth and some women will argue, “Oh, it decreases breastmilk supply,” but I've never seen that in my practice, is a little bit of lemon balm in that infusion because it, again, helps to bring down those feelings of anxiety. It's really good for the nervous system. The total nervous system calms everything down because again, post-birth, we're in an adrenaline surge. The body went through all of that adrenaline. Some women feel that for days, weeks, or months before they start to calm down again. Those are some things that I find really helpful. Meagan: You said that a lot of people think about a tea bag, but you're saying herbs. Where would one something where they make this? Dr. Spair: Mountainherbreserves.com is my favorite. You just take a mason jar. You can get these at the grocery store, Tractor Supply, Amazon, or anywhere. They make a little infuser that goes at the top. It's about this high. It sits at the top. You put the loose herbs in there. Fill it with hot water and steep that for an hour or two hours. The longer you steep it, it will be stronger. So if you're just starting out, do a little bit of herb. Let it steep for 20 minutes and see how you do with it. I like to let it sit for a while and sip on it. Meagan: This would be good for anyone, Cesarean or vaginal. Dr. Spair: Yes, to help us recover. We need to recover either way. Either way, we need to recover. Meagan: Is it stinging nettle? Dr. Spair: Yes. Yes. Stinging nettle and then red raspberry leaf. Meagan: And then some lemon balm. Dr. Spair: Some lemon balm if you're not afraid. It's in the peppermint family so some women say, “Oh,” but in my practice, I've had postpartum moms on lemon balm for the last 8 years and I've never had one that has had issues with milk production. I wouldn't say a ton of it off the bat, but a little bit will help to take the edge off. I always say that there is this risk/benefit thing. If a mom is really struggling, she's probably not going to make it with breastfeeding anyway, so if we can help her central nervous system, we can deal with other things.I love Ashwaganda post-birth. I think that's another one that's really beautiful for the adrenal glands. Magnesium is so good. It helps, again, with post-uterine contractions. Women are feeling that. They're feeling uncomfortable. Magnesium is great for that. It helps with fluid retention in the body. With C-sections, you know what happens with that. I didn't have an ounce of swelling during my entire pregnancy. I had that C-section and my feet, I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I had zero swelling. Meagan: I sweat. I had severe night sweats. Dr. Spair: Yes, because you know what those night sweats are? It's all of the drugs that have to come out of the spinal. Meagan: It's everything coming out of my body. Dr. Spair: It has to come out and that's a problem too. What I love for that postpartum is milk thistle. A milk thistle tincture for moms that have C-sections to get rid of the drugs that we have to have when we have a C-section. Even if you're a mom that has a VBAC and you have a spinal, and you're feeling like your system is a little gunked up, milk thistle is amazing. We can do a lot with nutrition. If you don't want to use herbs, there are a lot of other things you can use. Green juices, cucumber juices, those kinds of things are wonderful too, but if you want a tincture, milk thistle is a beautiful way to gently cleanse the body. Meagan: Cleanse the body. Awesome. Well, let's talk a little bit about nutrition. So many times, we have a baby, and then any extra support that we have, they want to bring meals and they bring things like lasagna. Dr. Spair: I know. Meagan: And bread, and pizza. Dr. Spair: I know. It's not something that you'd be like, “Okay, this is good.” It's easy. Meagan: You'll take anything. Dr. Spair: You'll take anything. Meagan: I don't want to ever shame anyone who has ever made lasagna for someone who has had a baby. Dr. Spair: No, exactly. Meagan: I'm guilty of that. But at the same time, there are so many nutrients that we are lacking that we need for our brain functioning, our body functioning–Dr. Spair: There are some key things that we really need. Raw, leafy greens are one of them and it's like, “Who the hell wants to eat a salad after they birth?” I get it but there are easy ways to bring greens in. I'm going to go back to the smoothie again. My favorite way is frozen mangos, spinach, and coconut water. You can throw bananas in there if you want. You get those greens in your body, you are a different woman. Again, we're depleted so those raw, leafy greens are just– again, it's like an infusion. Moms feel better mentally, physically, all of it pretty much immediately because of the leafy greens. Again, when we lose blood, our iron reserves go down. So low iron, fatigue, and all of that, raw, leafy greens help to bring that up. So does the nettle. The nettle helps with raising the iron. Raw, leafy greens are so important. Again, you can do them in the smoothies if you don't want to eat a salad. The other thing I do if I have a warmed soup or even if you had something like a lasagna, chop them up really small. Put them on like a garnish. At least you're getting something in. You can fold raw, leafy greens right into a warm soup or a stirfry so you're still getting warm food, but you're bringing some greens in. Some women postpartum have a hard time with that, so we have to find alternative ways. It's not always just black and white. Go eat all salads. Sometimes we have to meet women where they are and say, “Okay, you're going to eat that warm meal. Let's doctor it up a little bit.” Meagan: You can still have your comfort meal. Dr. Spair: Yes. There's a way to do it. There's a way to do it. Meagan: With empowering, enriched nutrients. Dr. Spair: Yes. Yes. There's a way to do that. And you know, things like selenium and iodine, there are simple ways. A little bit of seaweed for iodine protects the thyroid. It really helps moms recover and then selenium, one to two brail nuts a couple of times a week really helps again with that thyroid function for moms postpartum as things start to fluctuate. There are really easy little tricks that are like, “If I just did these few little things, I'd be in a different place.” Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Spair: I'm really big on freezer meals. I have a free thing on my website. It says preparedness, be prepared and it's a bunch of meals that moms can make ahead of time. Meagan: That's huge. Dr. Spair: They can freeze them. I'm guilty of it though. With the third baby, I was like, “Oh, I'm going to make all of these things,” and whatever. She didn't come until 41.5 weeks and I still didn't have too many things in my freezer but if you're a planner and you want to do things ahead of time, we have a resource there that's free. Meagan: I love that. We're going to be sure to drop that in the show notes right now because there are a lot of people who are saying, “You're coming up on your due date. What can I do to help?” You can send them that link and say, “Can you make this meal for me?” Dr. Spair: Yes. “I would love for you to make some of these things,” if there are people that would be open to that. That would be great. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. That would be so awesome. So cool. Is there anything else that you feel is important to share? There's just so much. As a specialist in health and nutrition and seeing the postpartum and knowing your own journey, is there anything that you're like, “This is the biggest takeaway for you as a listener”? What is your biggest takeaway?Dr. Spair: For me, it's that moms have to take care of themselves. I understand because I'm a giver. People still tell me. I'm guilty of it. “Kimberly, you have to take care of yourself.” But it's my baby, my middle kid, my big kid. We're giving, giving, giving, But when we don't take care of ourselves, those babies need me. Our babies need us so if we don't take care of ourselves with the same love, compassion, and consideration that we take care of them, then they have half of us or a shell of us. We have to take care of ourselves. We need to prepare with the nutrition. If herbs are something that you are into, I highly recommend that for that depletion stage and just really take care of yourself. Even if it's just, “Okay, I need to get outside for 10 minutes. Fresh air. Put my feet in the yard.” Those kinds of things make us feel alive.With my second, I remember my midwife saying to me, “No matter what, take a shower every day. Once a week, put on make-up.” It's like, make-up? I never thought of, “Put on make-up? Why would I put on make-up?” But let me tell you something, you do it and you're like, “Oh. I know that woman in the mirror. There she is.” There's a feeling to that. There's a feeling that comes with feeling like yourself. So if you can get in a shower and once in a while, put on some make-up and put on some clothes that make you feel like a human even if you're dealing with diapers and poopy hineys and all of those things, every once in a while, take care of yourself. That's the most important thing. Meagan: Yes. Yes. So Women of Strength, as you're listening, I can't agree more. Use this as a takeaway. Take care of yourself. Make sure you are knowing that you are important too because I think naturally, it's weird but naturally as moms, sometimes we get in that, “Well, this baby and this baby and this and that,” and we just think about all of the things. Then like you said in the beginning, we get to the end of the day and we're like, “What have we eaten today?” Dr. Spair: And sometimes we get to, “Who am I? Who is this person in the mirror?” Meagan: Yes. Yes and at the end of the day, we're like, “I don't know, but I'm too tired to think about it so I'm just going to go to bed.” So it's so important for us to remember that we exist and we're important. You have classes that help people along this journey. I know you're creating more classes too. Do you want to tell everybody before we go a little bit about your classes? Dr. Spair: I have a course called Empowered Moms. It's coming up in May. It's a month-long course and it covers everything and anything that you want to know as a mom. Literally, I learned all of these things on my journey about holistic health and nutrition. Moms come to me that have kids with chronic ear infections or chronic symptoms or illness or they just want to do things a better way. They feel like they're always in the pediatrician's office and they want to take their power back. They want to learn how to use herbs and homeopathy and use things medicinally so that it's not that you'll never need your pediatrician again, but maybe you can break free from the cycle of things that you're– if you can catch my drift– having to give over and over again for chronic symptoms. My course helps to help moms. Again, it's called Empowered Moms. It's empowering moms to take their power back and giving them the tools necessary to help their families nutritionally and herbally. Again, I get into homeopathics. I also get into self-care and things for moms and what they can do for nervous system healing because that's all of us. And then I have a birth course that's going to be launching by the end of the summer. I'm super excited about that. It's going to be all about preparing for birth, birthing itself, and then the postpartum part which I think is so important. And then I have one other course called Empowered Women. That one is only for women for all women's health issues, so moms who struggle with anything from hormonal issues to thyroid issues. All the things are covered in that course. Meagan: Adrenal fatigue. Yes, when I was looking through, I was like, “Dang. I think I might need to take this course myself.” Seriously because I know that there are so many things hormonally that I haven't figured out yet. I am in that routine of, “Okay, I'll go get my blood drawn again. Let's go and do this. Let's go and do that.” I'm not figuring out what's really going on at the root. Dr. Spair: Because a lot of the time, they say it's hormones but we all have this viral and toxic load. I'll just briefly explain. When we keep the viral and toxic load here under the bucket where we all have, there are no symptoms. When it starts to bubble over and now we've got lots of toxic load and lots of viruses and pathogens in our body, we see symptoms. My job is to help people get all that back down. We are cleansing. We are taking care of viruses, pathogens, and latent infections in the body, and then symptoms disappear. That's what it is. It's not always that people think, “I need a diagnosis. I need a diagnosis.” I think everyone should go to their doctor. I think that people should definitely go but a lot of those people are searching and they're getting all of the bloodwork and they're going through all of these things, but I recovered from Hashimoto's, a neurological disease, myself. Meagan: Yes. There's a whole story. Dr. Spair: Yes. I went through all of that. I had a $15,000 book of labs and notebooks and all of that. We lost our first home because of my chronic illness and it wasn't until I took my own power back and said, “All right. There are things that I need to learn about my own body and I can cleanse my way out of this.” Again, it's not telling people not to go get the labs and figure it out, but if you're in a situation where you've done all of those things and you're like, “Well, shit. I'm not feeling better,” sometimes, there's something else going on. Meagan: Yes. Your story is just amazing. It's so empowering. I encourage everyone to go to drkimberlyspair.com and spend hours on this website because seriously, you have so much. You have product guides. You have testimonials. You have the fertility and pregnancy and your amazing blog. I know you offer not only these courses but one-on-ones and more about you and your history and your journey and why you are here today empowering these women to again, take things back and have the power in their pocket. “To reclaim your health, empower your family's future” is what you say. I think it's amazing and what you're doing is so amazing and I just am so grateful for you today. Dr. Spair: I'm grateful for you. We're going to be sharing this too and I'm going to be sending all of the people to your page too because moms need the information. They need the statistics. They need the support and they need to feel seen and heard. Thank you so much. Meagan: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Helllo y'all we're back with summer previews and talking Manchester United for this weekWe talk through United's 2022/23 campaign, play some dubious trivia, give you the El Trafico rundown ... and thats it I guessPlease rate 5 stars (please?) Give it to us - we want it

Welcome to episode 181 of the Löw Tide Böyz - A Swimrun Podcast!We've got a great show for everyone this week. Joining us just a few days after ÖTILLÖ Utö is the new ÖTILLÖ race director, Staffan Björklund. We had a wide ranging conversation about his stout adventure racing and Swimrun roots, his love for the sport and what the future holds as he begins to write the next chapter in the storied history of ÖTILLÖ.But first…Training UpdateÖdyssey Swimrun Casco Bay is just a few weeks away and stoke levels are very high for our first race of the year. We had a big week of training with some long swims, long runs, and Monday Swimruns. Only another week or so of giving it the gas before we start tapering. ShoutoutThis week we are shouting out our three new LTBz Patrons on Patreon. Thank you Liza, Mike and Tom. We really appreciate your support of our brand of super niche content!Wisdom Nugget of the WeekWe suffer more often in imagination than in reality. — SenecaFeats of EnduranceThis week we are giving a blanket award to everyone that Swimran over the weekend. There were events all over Europe, including ÖTILLÖ Utö, Swimrun Côte de Vermille, Sjöloppet Swimrun, Love Swimrun Llanberis, Tal-Y-Llyn Swimrun, and the Långholmen Swimrun.Bonus award for Pete Jervis for racing the “Wales Double:” Swimrun Llanberis on Saturday and Tal-Y-Llyn Swimrun on Sunday. Strong work!Make sure to sign up for our LTBz Strava Club and join Swimrunners from around the world as they train for stuff.Show BusinessIf you're racing Ödyssey Swimrun Casco Bay in a few weeks–or just love hearing the sound of our voices–make sure to check out our bonus course preview episode that is out now! Spoiler alert: we got confirmation that the 2023 courses will be the same as 2022 so we will be re-sharing a leg by leg breakdown by the one and only John Stevens.Staffan Björklund, ÖTILLÖ Race DirectorIt was really great to chat with Staffan just a few days after Utö, his first official event as the new race director for ÖTILLÖ. In this conversation we talked about Michael and Mats's legacy and their impact on him, his vast Swimrun experience and love for the sport, ÖTILLÖ's plans for the future, and so much more. We appreciated his candor and it's safe to say that he's super stoked on Swimrun just like the rest of us. Enjoy!~~~That's it for this week's show. If you are enjoying the Löw Tide Böyz, be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player and leave us a five-star rating and review since that's the best way for people to discover the show and the sport of Swimrun. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and on YouTube. Check out our website for Swimrun resources including gear guides, tips, how-to videos and so much more. Also make sure to check out our meme page @thelowtideboyz on Instagram. If you have any suggestions for the show or questions for us, send us a dm or an email at lowtideboyz@gmail.com. Finally, you can support our efforts on Patreon…if you feel so inclined.Thanks for listening and see you out there!-  Chip and Chris

Stories we're covering this week:• Scientists log the state's second largest hailstone in Mansfield• Chamber releases statement amidst membership controversy• Community Read-In event set for Tuesday• Legacy High journalism team earns national honorsIn the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about your health in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Realtor Beth Steinke offers some important cautions to renters in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain takes you to a sunny beach paradise in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve concludes his in-studio talk with Walkable City author Jeff Speck. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance. We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Coming up today:I'll fan myself where ever I want mateThe best bit of parenting advice from my True Crime podcastSomeone has slid into Meshel's DM's with a sexy secret Do you have rats in your house? I refuse to stay in an AirBNB ChatGPT wraps up by telling us which star sign will have a shitty weekWe are loving your secrets and if you are brave enough to share yours with Meshel you can do it today. Share Your Secret Here!Please share this podcast with one friend to help us get the word out about our new podcast. Make sure you subscribe and follow on your favourite podcast app to get the latest episodes each Tuesday. Thank you for listening!Instagram: @Meshel_Laurie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's been happeningPrices are moving across all components of the nuclear fuel cycle: enrichment, conversion and, of course, uranium.  The U3O8 spot price has moved through $57/lb, chalking up a respectable 17% growth for calendar 2023.  The sector's largest ETF, URA, issued new units last week We discuss the factors behind this growth, the return of capitalisation of uranium sector ETFs and whether uranium equities are responding or lagging.Winner of the week The major corporate news this week was American Lithium's spin out of their Macusani Uranium Project in Peru.  After acquiring Plateau Energy Metals in May 2021, American Lithium has released the project to develop beyond the shadow of the company's lithium assets.The spin out is being effected via a reverse takeover/back door listing and the Winner of the week was awarded to the shareholders of the target.What luck to have invested into a, ehem, listed dog shampoo company and receive market salvation via exposure to uranium – at a perfect time to ride the most prospective commodity play of recent times.https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2023/06/07/2683853/0/en/Friday-s-Dog-Holdings-Announces-Plan-of-Arrangement-to-Become-Major-Uranium-Developer-as-American-Lithium-Spins-Out-Macusani-Uranium.htmlBungle of the weekWe found a most deserving awardee of the Bungle of the Week – Carla Denyer on behalf of the UK Greens party.  Whilst the Greens continued science-denying opposition to nuclear power makes them a perennial short listee, Carla got her math horribly wrong when she told BBC that “Nuclear is between eight and eleven times more carbon intensive than renewable energy”. https://twitter.com/TheGreenParty/status/1666075811777003520?s=20This is at odds with the UN Economic Commission for Europe's comprehensive life cycle assessment of all electricity sources, published over a year ago, which found that nuclear power had the lowest carbon intensity of any energy source.  See https://unece.org/sed/documents/2021/10/reports/life-cycle-assessment-electricity-generation-optionsWe discuss whether it's bad math or bad faith – and where those ludicrous numbers could have come from.Tweet of the weekThis week's tweet highlights the major moves afoot in how nuclear energy is perceived by the ethical investment industry, following a Morningstar article highlighting that sustainable funds powerhouse Parnassus Investments have removed nuclear energy from their restriction lists.See https://www.morningstar.com/funds/sustainable-funds-powerhouse-parnassus-weighs-investing-nuclear-energyVarious tweets relayed the story to the delight of uranium investors. However, the actual Tweet of the Week gong is awarded to Nucleation Capital, who tweeted all the way back on May 26 after reading the primary source – ie a Parnassus news release.https://twitter.com/nucleationvc/status/1661932889695744000Question of the week“I have read that the Namibian government have banned the export of critical minerals.  Although it doesn't seem to include uranium, this can't be good for the country.  How much truth is in the headlines?”Moonshots & FizzersWe have noticed a distinct increase in speculation about Kazakhstan being squeezed between Russia and China.For instance, the Astana Times led that Kazakhstan was keen to make BRICS into BRICKS: https://astanatimes.com/2023/06/kazakhstan-seeks-to-join-brics-and-enhance-trade-and-economic-cooperation/  and https://www.seetao.com/details/210273.htmlOilprice.com ran the headline that “China And Russia Lock Horns Over Kazakhstan's Uranium” https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-russia-lock-horns-over-180000094.htmlWhilst this type of media reporting is usually a guarantee of Fizzerdom, some speculators feel a Moonshot could be on the way if Kazakhstan is unable to maintain a Western-facing facet.

“Labor is an event of the mind, the body, and the soul. We have to make sure that we are preparing in each of those elements so that we can then know at the end of the day that we are true to ourselves.”Sarah, one of the founders of Birth Made Mindful, joins Meagan on the podcast today to talk about how to mindfully approach motherhood in the way that is best for you, your body, your baby, and your family. She also shares her Cesarean and two VBAC stories!Sarah and her sisters created the Made Mindful platform to help women find their own innate power from within. All VBAC Link listeners will receive 30% off any of their courses by using the code “vbaclink” at checkout on www.birthmademindful.com.Additional LinksBirth Made Mindful WebsiteSarah's YouTubeSarah's TikTokHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsReceive 20% off on Needed Products The VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hey mommas have you ever looked at the back of your prenatal vitamin and wondered if you are truly getting everything you need? I know I didn't when I was pregnant. Well today I wanted to share with you the #1 prenatal I suggest to all my doula clients, friends, family, and YOU women of strength. It's by a company called Needed. I honestly don't think I was the only one that didn't really understand just how important certain nutrients were for myself or or my growing baby. And that is why i love needed. They have gone above and beyond to create solid products not only that have the key nutrients but also have the optimal amount. Don't be overwhelmed picking a prenatal. Check out all Needes products, including their prenatals, pre/pro biotics, immune support and more at thisisneeded.com enjoy 20% off by using code VBAC20Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. It is Wednesday and we have another great episode for you. Normally we have VBAC stories, but today we are going to be chatting about a lot of topics actually. We have our friend, Sarah. She is actually a VBAC mom and she has been on the podcast before so welcome, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me today. Meagan: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to have this discussion and this episode because it's something that truly we need to remember. I love sharing all of the VBAC stories of course. That's what this podcast is about, but it's also really good to get education and empowerment through other episodes. Review of the WeekWe are going to get into this episode after I share the Review of the Week. I'm going to tell you a little bit more about our friend, Sarah. This review is by spicyhotcurrie. I love that name. That's fun. It says, “The best education for all pregnant mamas.” I just love that so much because really, I mean, Sarah would you agree? At this podcast, we obviously talk about VBAC stories and how to empower people to make the best choices after Cesareans, but this really could be a podcast for all pregnant moms. Wouldn't you agree?Sarah: Absolutely. Meagan: Yes. We share so many tips. It's something that I wish I had when I was pregnant and preparing for my VBAC. Even if I didn't know if I wanted a VBAC, this would be a great podcast to listen to and see what options were out there and then even what led to Cesareans so I could learn how to avoid them. I love that topic. She says, “After one unmedicated hospital birth and one medicated hospital birth, my third birth ended in a physically and emotionally traumatic emergency Cesarean. The VBAC Link Podcast started soon after. I listened to them for over a year before getting pregnant. This podcast has made me laugh and cry and given me so much knowledge I didn't have even after three births and working in the postpartum unit at the hospital. This podcast has made me so excited for my VBAC in November. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”This was back in 2020 so spicyhotcurrie, if you have your story to share, I would love to know. Contact us at info@thevbaclink.com. If you haven't left a review yet, we would love your review always anywhere you want to leave a review– Apple Podcasts, Google, or you can email us. Wherever it may be, we would love your review. Sarah From Made MindfulMeagan: Okay, Sarah. Welcome. Sarah: I'm just giddy to talk to you about birth today. Meagan: I am giddy to have you here to talk about birth. I don't want to share your story. I want to let you share your story, but I do want to tell everybody who you are. You are an amazing person, an amazing individual, and you're a mom of course. Of course, you're a mama of three now. Sarah: Three boys. Meagan: Yes, a boy mama. You're a birth coach, an educational coach, a doula as well which you guys, I'm just going to point out that Utah is amazing. I'm just saying that if you're in Utah and you're listening, you're spoiled. We've got some good doulas here. Let's see what else. You're the founder of Made Mindful, right?Sarah: That's right. Meagan: Made Mindful. Okay. Tell us more. Tell us more about that. Sarah: Made Mindful came out of all of our experiences, me and my two sisters, with the different births that we have experienced together. Meagan: It's Carly–Sarah: Carly and Christina. Meagan: Christina, yes. Carly and Christina. Sarah: That's right. Meagan: I love that you're all sisters. That's so cool.Sarah: We have our website, Birth Made Mindful. We want to encourage women and families to empower themselves with education, positivity, and most importantly, just believe that they have the strength within themselves to create the birth of their dreams. Meagan: Absolutely. I love that. It's so hard sometimes because it's so overwhelming. There's so much going on and we're getting so many opinions coming from all of the other places to know and you hear things like, “I wanted to do that but my body couldn't and this but I couldn't, and this but I couldn't,” so then we start doubting ourselves like, “Can I? Can I do that? Is that possible?” Don't you feel like that is happening all over the place? Sarah: It is. It's just an overwhelming amount of information that we have to sort through. I think that also adds confusion. When we can look inside ourselves, we can find out really what matters most important to our families and to us as mothers and blossoming mothers if we are first-timers. Knowing what our options are, knowing some of the medical events that could take place with birth, and then being able to be in tune with ourselves and our bodies to know how to proceed. Meagan: Absolutely. You have experienced very different experiences. Do you want to share just a little bit more about your experiences and what truly led you here?Sarah: I would love to. My first son was five years ago, his birth. My water broke prematurely. I wasn't in labor. After about 40 hours at the hospital, we had a Cesarean section. It wasn't an emergency at that time, but he was sunny-side up so I just wasn't having meaningful dilation. His Cesarean was necessary, but after that experience, I started looking back and just thinking, “I want to have a vaginal birth for my next birth.” I just didn't want to be in pain and have the recovery and some of the problems that stem from abdominal surgery right after birth. So I prepared a lot. I listened to your podcast. I just researched as much as I could when I was pregnant with my second son. It was right around COVID. His due date was March 20th, 2020 so about three days before his due date, my obstetrician let me know that she could no longer support me in a vaginal delivery. Meagan: Did she tell you why?Sarah: I share that entire story in Episode 132 so if you haven't had a chance to listen, it was just a remarkable story. I think it was mainly because of COVID. The hospital had updated their policies that all of the women in the queue for delivery that week and that month would either need to have an early induction or a repeat C-section and that they weren't going to be able to support VBACs. But because I armed myself with knowledge, I had gotten myself a doula, I just felt like that wasn't the route I wanted to go. I wanted to allow my body at least the chance for my first VBAC. I know that a lot of women even after having multiple Cesareans will attempt a VBAC but your chances of getting support in the medical system are a lot stronger the first time. So I knew that this was my window. I was actually able to find a midwife who took me on. This is just a couple of days before he is born. I ended up having a beautiful, redemptive VBAC at a birthing center. It wasn't short labor. He was actually also in a sunny-side-up position so it was about 30 hours. My wonderful, supportive midwife confirmed, “If you would have been in a hospital, they would have done another C-section in the amount of time it took you to dilate again with being sunny-side up and all of those twists and turns of our labor.” But we did have a VBAC and it was amazing. The feelings, the emotions, all of the energy that I felt, I literally wasn't tired for three days after his birth because all of those chemicals were appropriately working within my body. I was able to breastfeed and latch in a much easier way with that child so I knew that I wanted to start sharing my story and offer encouragement to other women. So in between his birth and then the birth of my next son which was about two years later is when my sisters and I put our knowledge together and created digital courses. We created affirmation cards and just decided that we were going to try to start sharing our message with all of our sisters and our community so that they could have great experiences in their birth. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: For my third son, we actually delivered with that same midwife but I opted for a home birth. The reason why I wanted to have him at home was mainly because of tracking contractions. There's always that question, “When do I go to the hospital? Am I too early? Am I too late?” If you show up and you're only 3 or 4 centimeters dilated, are you then a burden on your medical staff? And they're starting the clock if you're in the hospital. So I thought, “I wonder if I was just at home if my body would relax enough that there wouldn't be any halting from my body.” I just said, “It doesn't matter how long it takes. I'm prepared to labor as long as this baby needs.” I also had made peace with the fact that if we needed to transfer to a hospital, I would not feel like a failure. I would approach that with the understanding that I was going to the hospital and utilizing the tools and the help that I might need if we did need a transfer because a lot of people are afraid of what a home birth means if there's a transfer. Most of the time, it's not an emergency if there's a transfer that's needed. Meagan: Yeah. Really, most of the time it's due to a hangup and there are resources at a hospital that aren't at home anymore. We've exhausted our resources. Maybe there is a little bit of Pitocin that is needed. I say needed, but it is something that could help and they've exhausted breast stimulation with the breast pump or maybe it's been a really, really long labor and we're just tired, and that epidural is something that really can help to actually have that final outcome that we were looking for. It's just going to be in a different place. But it's rarely an emergency and it's okay. It is okay to transfer. It's okay to make that choice. No failing or giving up. They don't go together. There's no failing. Sarah: Exactly. Meagan: Just because there's a change of plans doesn't mean there is failure involved. Sarah: Yeah. That terminology is so tricky when people consider a transfer from your home as a failure but most women just choose to transfer to the hospital before they plan to push their baby out. So his birth was remarkable. It was a few days after his due date again. I had started feeling a little bit anxious about when he would come. I decided that I needed to release all of that. I went swimming and I just told him, “I know that you're safe, but I also want you to come as soon as you're ready.” My labor started that night. I could sense that the contractions were ramping up, but I wanted to rest as much as possible. I didn't want to have the mindset that I needed to walk around or be upright because with my prior births, it had taken me a full day and I didn't want to feel exhausted myself. So at about 1:00 in the morning, I went into the guest room so I wasn't waking up my husband and I just tried to sleep in between my contractions and it was successful. I was able to listen to some meditations and to find that quiet comfort within my bed. With sunrise, the contractions started ramping up and after about one hour of steady contractions, I thought, “It's time to wake up my husband. It's time to let him know that things might be started.” So after observing me for a few minutes, he decided that we should call the midwife right there. I definitely didn't think that I was ready because I had really only been in what I would consider active labor for an hour, but when our midwife came to my home, I was 8 centimeters dilated and they were ready to fill up the birth pool and have me hope right in. It was just peaceful and quiet. My midwife and her team almost seemed like they were just working in synchrony in the background. There wasn't any coaching. There wasn't any interruption to what I was experiencing and having my husband and I there. We did send our toddlers off to Grandma's house so that we could just have the house to ourselves. But it was amazing. I got in the birth tub and my water broke probably 20 minutes after that. And then after about 20 minutes of pushing, I was able to deliver him and just have that same concoction of hormones that just make you feel so elated, so happy, so grateful for your baby being born that immediately, any of those feelings of pain that come with pushing have gone and just being able to snuggle him there in my own home and be tucked in our own bed just minutes after. I felt like a home birth really was the birth of my dreams. I felt like a queen and it is what made me want to help encourage women to create the environment that they want so that they know that they are the leader of their birth. Yes. Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it.Meagan: I want to take a quick moment to hear about our partner Needed. The leading women's health supplement brand recommend by nutritionally trained practitioners. Needed was founded by two incredible mommas who were navigating their fertility journey. They were shocked to realize that 97% of women take prenatal vitamins, yet 95% of us are nutrient deficient. Is that not eye opening or what? Getting the right prenatal vitamin is super important. So how do we know what one is best. While most perinatal supplements include the bare minimum of the nutrients women and babies need, Needed has all of your needs covered from your prenatal vitamin, to pregnancy specific pre/pro biotic, immune lactation and nausea support, as well as supplements that help us with our protein needs, balancing our blood sugar, and helps with postpartum healing. Needed's Complete Plan delivers unparallel nourishment for every phase. Weather you are thinking of conceiving, pregnant, postpartum, or deeper into your mommy years like me, these supplements are amazing. I take the prenatal collagen protein every single day, and absolutely love it. Learn more about Neededs complete line of perinatal and women's health suppliants at thisisneeded.com use code VBAC20 for 20% off that is V-B-A-C-20 at thisisneeded.comMeagan: I really do love it. I really, really do. It's just so amazing. And it connects with me so well because of the same thing. After my second Cesarean, I learned more about doulas. The doula work just called to me. I was like, “This is what I want to do. I want to help people know that they can have different experiences.” One of the hardest things during our pregnancy journey is the preparation and knowing what preparation to do. There are so many things out there. You've prepared differently each time especially because you are preparing for different scenarios with different locations and stuff but are there any tips that you would have for birth prep in general and self-empowerment? How do you truly believe in your ability to do what you want to do and then create the environment to do that?Sarah: With my first son, I prepared with HypnoBirthing. I wanted to be able to find that meditative state so that I could move forward with an unmedicated birth but one of the disservices that the course instructor did for me was she said, “We're not going to study Cesareans because you're not going to have a C-section. We don't need to start focusing on that because it won't be an option.” So looking back, I would advise women to actually get as educated as they can with the medical system and know about inductions and know about options for inducing labor both natural and medical options regarding induction. But I also think one element that is most missing in the system is for our doctors or our providers to help us know that we have the power within us. We're not taught about the physiological process of birth so we don't understand that there are hormones within us and messages that our baby will signal to our body that it's time to start the process. Right? Knowing that our bodies are made to go through this and that everything is intended to stretch, I think that we can eliminate a lot of the fear that we have if we only believe that we will be successful with an epidural or with vacuum assistance. Just knowing that our bodies are made to birth our babies whatever size they come, whatever date they choose to arrive, that our bodies have the answers within them. I also think it's important to realize that the perception of pain is also internal. One thing that I have been learning a lot about is that our body only feels pain because of the messages that our brain then starts to comprehend. So if we begin to feel a contraction and our brain's message is, “This is wrong. This is bad. This has to stop immediately,” all of a sudden, we create an environment of tension and stress within us. This is the opposite feeling that we need in order for our baby to continue to dilate and for the baby to be born. So what I try to instruct women and families to focus on is that the contraction is the method by which the baby is going to continue to descend and it's the correct feeling that we should be having at the time. Now, I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's absolutely pain-free, but understanding that the waves are the only way for our uterus to contract and expel the baby then will give us power inside. We also have different pain-blocking receptors within our body. So as our contractions rise with each stage of labor as they start to get more intense through transition and then as we start to feel that natural urge to push, we have also been experiencing the counteracting force within ourselves of being able to block that pain. Then when our baby is born, having the skin-to-skin time completely erases all of those feelings that we had. So knowing that our bodies are perfectly designed to accommodate everything that we will experience gives us so much confidence that we can then proceed and we are able to labor as long as it takes. We are able to continue to breathe. One thing I like to think about as I'm experiencing a contraction, and one of the reasons I think that my labor was so much faster, was because every time I had a contraction, I would try to breathe as if I was allowing his head to push into my toes. I wasn't pushing, right? You're not supposed to push until you feel the urge to push, but I was allowing myself to think open thoughts so that my body could open and be in that state for cervical change but I was also trying to focus on the down and out of the baby being born.  When we have a contraction and we're not grounded or we're not prepared for those feelings or those really strong sensations, it's a lot harder for our bodies to then continue to progress in a way that is unhindered and allows us to feel safe and secure and that everything is a correct sensation. In both of my vaginal deliveries, I actually did not feel like transition was a stage of torment or suffering for myself. I know a lot of women say that they can start to feel when they are in transition. For me, that always came in the pushing element. When I felt that pressure, that's when I decided, “I really need to get grounded here because this is happening.” So for my third birth, I knew that the more that I can focus and feel what was happening inside of me and utilize those feelings to help push the baby, the sooner I can come through this situation. Right? Sometimes people talk about a hard scenario and they say, “The only way out is through.” That's another thing for labor where you have to go through all of those feelings. Meagan: Yeah and those feelings can be really intimidating, right? Really intimidating so through our prep, prepare for those feelings. Prepare for the way to change up your breath because there are those moments sometimes where it's like, “I don't know if I can do this,” and our shoulders raise and our faces tense. If we can breathe through that, breath is so incredibly powerful. It's so powerful. But if we can breathe through that, it can really, truly help. Just our breath alone and then like you were saying, how our mind relates to pain if we can change our mindset– this is totally not birth related but I am really big into cold water therapy like Wim Hof and all of the things. My husband and I converted our deep freezer into a cold plunge in our backyard and I will tell you, when I am in that, it's freezing. At 40 degrees, it's really cold, but when my mind connects to, “It is cold. It is cold. It is cold,” my whole body just trembles and I'm freezing. I'm telling myself, “It's so freezing.” I'm trying to work through it, but I can't. I'm just shaking. Then when I breathe and I'm like, “Okay. Calm down. You're okay. You're right here. You're strong,” and I start coming out of that space of fear and exactly what's happening if that makes sense– I'm telling myself that I am freezing. I am cold. I mean, I am cold but I'm also okay and I'm also going to get through this. It's crazy. I just did it with some friends and they witnessed it. They were like, “Wow. That's crazy.” I audibly have to say it out loud. I can't even just do it internally. They are like, “Wow. That is really cool.” It's the same with labor and with birth and all of these things. Sarah: Knowing that you are exactly where you need to be is what then will give your body confidence to do what it needs to do. I think that's why birth affirmations can be so positive because as we speak out loud, our brain believes what we say. So if you are in labor and you are saying, “I can't. I'm in pain. Make it stop,” all of a sudden your entire body starts to feel that tension and starts to feel that panic. But if we can use affirmations to say, “I am safe. I am secure. I am strong,” saying these things will then solidify to our bodies that that is how we feel. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to talk about changing plans and things like that. If we have a birth that is going another way which is maybe undesired, maybe a Cesarean or a repeat Cesarean. Maybe we're at home and we are transferring to the hospital or you wanted to go unmedicated and you're getting an epidural, I wanted to talk about the word failure and how impactful that word can be and how we have to offer ourselves grace. Do you have anything to say about that? Sarah: Absolutely. I think the first thing to do is to understand that when you share a birth story that didn't have the outcome of your desire, a lot of people will say, “At least there's a healthy baby. At least there's a healthy mom.” While those things are most important and unfortunately, the opposite can happen at birth. It's devastating. We also have to know that our mindset can control how we feel about an experience. So just as I shared that I had made peace knowing that a transfer to the hospital would not equal that I'm a failure, knowing that you have done everything that is within your power to achieve your main goal will help you then to feel like you've had the most beautiful birth. Sometimes I think that it's more about just knowing that you're respected and knowing that your wishes were granted during birth, that you had a birth partner or a support team that listened to you, and that made you feel like the goddess that you are in birth. Meagan: And heard. Sarah: And heard. Sometimes what we want is we want that epidural or we want that induction and we have reasons within ourselves knowing why we want the birth that we want. When we can create an environment within ourselves that then fosters that, that's when our birth feels like it's unstoppable. That's when we know that we have achieved everything that we set out to do. I think one important way to prepare in that regard is to do what I call a fear release. When we're thinking about all of the options that can go wrong, we tend to stop that thought immediately because we don't want to think about a worst-case scenario. We don't want to fill our minds or our bodies with that negativity but if we can approach it before it happens and we can actually say, “What is my plan? If my water breaks before my labor has started, what is my plan? If dilation isn't happening at a good rate, what are my options? Can I get a Foley bulb? Is Cervadil an option while I am laboring?” we can actually walk down the path of each of our fears and we will start to see that we have the same amount of knowledge essentially that our providers have in what paths would be available. For me, I was writing everything down and every single thing that I would feel prior to birth. If I was feeling frustrated, if I was feeling scared, if I was feeling nervous about adding another child, “How am I going to take care of all of their needs?” all of those things are real and can feel overwhelming. If we don't have the support externally, then we have to find where we stand within ourselves. Labor is an event of the mind, the body, and the soul. We have to make sure that we are preparing in each of those elements so that we can then know at the end of the day that we are true to ourselves and that we have listened to the promptings that come and that we follow what makes us feel like we are driving the car that will get us to the destination of our baby's birth. Meagan: Yes. So in saying that, we have to act on the promptings that we feel and sometimes it may be something different than what's being suggested. For a long time in birth, I didn't realize that I could say no or could say, “I would like to do this,” or “Talk to me about this,” and have that discussion and that active conversation about what I was feeling. With my second C-section, I didn't want to go down to the OR. I didn't want to have a repeat Cesarean and I didn't feel like I could say much more than, “Okay, let's go.” So I want to talk about that. We have these feelings and then how do we act on them? Obviously finding that supportive provider and having that supportive team, but then how do we find the courage within ourselves to say, “Hold on. I hear you. I hear what you're saying, but I would like to talk about this,” or “My heart is telling me this. Can we talk about that?”Sarah: I think the first step that we take is knowing our rights. Just like you said, if we have a provider that is suggesting an intervention. Maybe it's a position that doesn't feel comfortable to our bodies. We have to know that we are allowed to say no and that when informed consent is a part of our birth plan, we can always ask them what the options are. So if someone comes in and says, “Your labor hasn't progressed for 4 hours. You don't have anymore dilation. It's time for Pitocin,” we can say, “What are my options? What might happen if I do not choose to have Pitocin at this time? Is it something that we can look into 2 hours from now?” Because I have had a hospital birth that ended in a C-section and then my other two births outside of a hospital, I recognize that it's not always as easy as we might think if our providers are–Meagan: Pushing back. Sarah: If they're pushing back and if they have a protocol that they have to follow based upon their hospital. Those are put in place to protect them as providers with liability and also to protect mothers and babies, right? No doctor would want to take a risk for a mother and a baby but when we feel like the request that we have should be honored and that we can ask those questions to then receive a response that we are able to then come together and work as a team. Knowing that everybody who is there really does want the best for you and your baby, knowing that you might offend someone by letting them know that, “Hey, I don't want this to happen at this time,” but that you have the right to do that and that if needed, you can actually switch providers. For me, that was very scary. Meagan: A couple of days before. Sarah: It was a stressful event to have to be finding someone. I went to a few other obstetricians and they said, “You're far too late. You're too far along in this pregnancy to be coming to me.” That's when I decided that even if having a VBAC outside of the hospital presented an added element of risk because I might have to transfer to a hospital if something went awry, I knew that was the route that I needed to take in order to achieve what I felt like was my right to attempt a VBAC. I love the work that you're doing because so many women, as they are deciding if they should have a C-section or if they can try for a VBAC, find that there are roadblocks that are in our way. I don't want to say all of the time, but a lot of the time, our providers want the very best for us, but some of their suggestions might not be what helps us achieve a VBAC. One example I can think of is an early induction. Right? We know that the highest chance for a VBAC is for spontaneous, vaginal delivery to occur and yet we are also under pressure for our babies to be delivered by 40 weeks. Meagan: Or 39 even sometimes. Sarah: Or 39. And just as a woman's menstrual cycle is not always a 5-day event or our cycles aren't always the same amount of days– Meagan: 14 days apart, yeah. Sarah: Exactly, that maybe you knew exactly the date you conceived or you had IVF so you knew exactly when your egg was implanted, it's very hard to know if that 40-week date is accurate. Both of my VBAC babies were born at 40 weeks and 3 days. To me, that's interesting because I think, “Maybe my body is regulated enough that that is just when my babies are developed.” You know? So knowing that if a provider is telling us, “You have to have your baby by 40 weeks,” we can say, “What are my options if I choose? Can I take a non-stress test after the 40-week mark to find out how my amniotic fluid is doing and to make sure my baby is healthy and strong?” Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: And if you do find that there are complications, then there is no regret when you have the induction at that time. Meagan: Right. Yep. Sarah: Or when you seek medical assistance or when you elect to have that repeat Cesarean because you knew that your wishes were honored and that you were able to be number one. Meagan: An active participant of your birth. Being an active participant in your birth is so important. Like she said, if you choose an elective Cesarean, that's okay because you were a part of that decision making or if you choose to be induced or if you choose to keep going or whatever it may be, being an active participant in your birth can truly impact the way you reflect in your postpartum experience.Last but not least, I would love to talk about the postpartum too. I think we would both agree that a lot of the times– I don't want to say this with everybody preparing to give birth, but I feel like it's very much so in the VBAC world, we are so focused on how to get a VBAC, a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, and how to have this end result that we forget about what comes after the birth whether it's a vaginal birth or Cesarean. We are so focused on how to get this birth and this outcome that we forget what happens in that last period. Sarah: Exactly because our bodies know how to birth a baby without the knowledge that we possess. Even after we gain all of this knowledge, it really is our body's job and our baby's job to be born. But the postpartum period then falls all the way back on the families. So if you're not prepared, if you don't understand what will be happening physically within your body and how long it takes to heal, you could find yourself underwater at that time. Your baby requires food every few hours so if you're attempting breastfeeding and you're having struggles with breastfeeding, all of a sudden it feels like the postpartum period is harder than the birth for a lot of women. We have a separate course for the postpartum period. We call it “The Fourth Trimester”. In it, we dive deep into sleep both for parents and for infants. We talk about breastfeeding or feeding your baby if you elect formula. We go into postpartum depression and anxiety and really just try to help women understand that the time to prepare for the postpartum period is during pregnancy. It's not just the 38th week of pregnancy because your baby might come at that time. I remember with my first son, my hospital bag wasn't even packed when my water broke because it was in that 38th week and I thought I still had a few more to go. Everybody said that first-time moms always go overdue. So even knowing that the La Leche League offers free consults over the phone at any time of the night or day, knowing that alone is just a resource that we can use. I have to tell you for my third birth, I thought, “Okay. We will just have this set. Everything is going to go swimmingly,” and my little baby boy just was not latching correctly which causes so much pain as you're trying to nurse but it also caused one of my breasts to be engorged in a way that he wasn't extracting the milk but I was still experiencing those letdowns. So after a few days of just struggling– and I had met with the hospital lactation consultant– and feeling like, “I don't have the resources I need,” I met with women from the La Leche League multiple times and finally, one of the pieces of advice that she gave us was the turning for my son. She mentioned, “When you sit down to feed your baby, you're not going to think of it as a feeding session. You are going to try latching.” She actually gave me a number. She said, “I want you to try 20 times to latch.” I thought, “That is way more than I have been trying.” I usually start to feel defeated after the 5th or 6th time of trying to get this all to work. Then she said, “Your baby might be angry. Your baby might be hungry, so feed them an ounce of milk from the bottle or spoon feed however you want to feed them, and then try again 20 times on the other side.” I cannot tell you what a difference this made knowing that I was going to sit down and try 40 times to latch my baby. After the 8th attempt, he latched and we never had problems again. All that it took was for me to change my mindset as far as what I expected. Right? So even though I was an experienced mom, I had breastfed before, my little baby is just learning this for the first time. He's awfully small. He has the reflexes to suck, but he needs to be trained just as much as I do. We had to come together and work through that. I don't think that I could have made it happen without the support of the La Leche League. A lot of the time I think, “There are always excuses,” when we're in the postpartum period when we're tired or we don't have a store open when we need something and Walmart is closed at 11:00 and all of a sudden, you're having a fight with your partner in the middle of the night because you're not prepared so knowing just the amount of supplies that you're going to need and how long you're going to bleed after birth, all of these little details can be really overwhelming. Thank heavens that we have more people talking about it. We have companies that are responding to these needs. I think that we have more individuals offering support at this time where they say, “Oh, I”m just going to buy you that gift basket that has all of the support that you'll need.” Having a friend that can bring over their old nursing bras that they're not using anymore so that you're just ready to go with the supplies that you need, can make your postpartum period feel like you are off to a great start. Meagan: Absolutely. There was something you had mentioned too, and this goes for birth, where you were like, “I never had problems before. I nursed my other babies just fine and this baby's brand new and a new experience.” That goes with all things in life and with birth and postpartum. Just because we birthed this way or this is how our birth went or this is how or breastfeeding journey or this is how my postpartum went, doesn't always mean that we shouldn't prepare for the next baby and the next birth and the next postpartum. It doesn't always go exactly the same. Then also, remember these babies. Yes. Is it instinctual? Yes. They know where to get milk but again, their mouths are different. Everything is different so it can change so having patience and getting to that spot where you get to your nursing station, you take a deep breath in, you are taking a deep breath out, and you try 40 times. You are trying and not letting number three get so infuriating because your baby is going to feel that too. Your baby is going to feel that stress. It's the same thing in birth where if we have someone bring in some stressful feelings, we're going to all react to that. Our bodies react so remember to find your breath, find what you need to do, and have the patience to walk through that.Sarah: The reason we named our company Birth Made Mindful was because the word mindful in and of itself just means that you are taking in everything around you and you are allowing yourself to feel without judgment what is happening. It's the hardest thing whether you are in birth or whether you are having a challenging experience as a mother, just know that you have enough time to pause, you have enough time to think, and to really find out what answer feels right to you. What is your heart telling you? What is your mind telling you? Can those two things come together in a way that then you can make a decision that will empower you? I've been writing the book for our company, “Birth Made Mindful”, and it has just been an amazing process of going even a level deeper than just a digital course to explain to women that they have the strength within and that each of us is powerful. We are champions. I love the phrase “birth warrior” but I don't want anybody to feel like they have to have their sword and their shield as they go into birth. We want it to be more of a collective feeling where all of us are working together so that we can have an experience that will then launch us into motherhood or maybe it's our second child so launching us into having multiple children in a way that will really give us vibrancy. It gives us energy. It gives us meaning in motherhood and the support that we know that we can do it. It really does come from having an understanding of where we are at inside and allowing anything that doesn't feel congruent, that we can work through those things and we can then find out where our true passions lie and make sure that we honor ourselves and honor our desires. Meagan: Our intuition. Oh, well tell everybody where they can find more about your courses and your blogs and hopefully soon, your book. Sarah: Yes! We are at birthmademindful.com and most of our social media handles are at Made Mindful. That way we can cover Motherhood Made Mindful as well as we continue to grow our course offerings and continue to try to help our community find joy in birth and motherhood. That is our mission to have every family feel like they are armed with knowledge and that they have all of the support that they need to take on the most important event of their lives. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit more about your other birth story and sharing these tips with the listeners. It really is so important to prepare our mind, our body, and our soul for all of the experiences. Obviously, we know that things happen sometimes and there are going to be unexpected things that come but even through preparing and being in that space and taking that time to say, “Wait, what is happening?” just processing it in the moment and having the question be asked can help you as well for after. I love that you talked about doing the fear release. We talk about doing the fear release too. Sometimes we don't realize that we have traumas because we don't look at it as a super traumatic experience but then as we walk through our birth and things, we realize, “Oh, that might be a traumatic thing I need to process. That's a fear,” or “Maybe it's not traumatic but it's a fear of mine. It's enough to hang me up.” So it's important to walk through these situations as well. I think it's awesome that you offer the two courses. Postpartum. Obviously, I love VBAC and I love the prep but there's so much to postpartum that is just forgotten about so I think it's really important that we talk more about that so thank you so much. Sarah: Absolutely. We want your listeners to get a discount when they come and buy your courses. So they enter VBACLINK into any of our courses, then they'll get 30% off of both of those courses if they want to come to check it out. Meagan: Wow. That is amazing. Sarah: We just hope to continue to provide education, knowledge, and support to families. Like I said, birth is a transformative event. It's the day that your baby is born but it's also the day that a mother is born. In this day and age, we need all of the help that we can get. Meagan: Absolutely. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Sarah: Thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Stories we're covering this week:• Juneteenth event promises to be the best yet• Council increases homestead exemption. We'll talk about in A Moment With the Mayor• MISD recognized for music education program• Mansfield ISD Committee to host community forum regarding high school boundaries• Downtown vendors create an event for the dads• In Sports, Lake Ridge grad achieves “Moore”In the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about the world's largest swim lesson in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Realtor Beth Steinke addresses getting pre-approved in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain serves up a Dave Matthews Punch in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve talks in-studio with Walkable City author Jeff Speck. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance. We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield. 

Stories we're covering this week:• Juneteeth celebration moves to a new location• Ben Barber boys bring the heat in the high school state barbecue competition• Stage production opens Friday at the Farr Best • Mansfield woman runs every street in MansfieldIn the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about water safety tips in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Realtor Beth Steinke addresses the three questions that strike fear in the heart of Realtors in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain serves up a Mexican Tonic in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve concludes his talk with author-educator Shane Trotter about the physical and mental health of our school kids. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance. We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Stories we're covering this week:• Mansfield PD reminds citizens to not fall for recurring scam• City gears up for Mansfield Rocks event• City opens internship program for local college students• In Sports, MISD announces next round of Athletic Hall of Honors inducteesIn the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about preventing sports injuries in Methodist Mansfield News to Know.• Realtor Beth Steinke talks about fences in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain serves up a taste of summer in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve talks with author-educator Shane Trotter (and three-time guest) about the physical and mental health of our school kids. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance. We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Stories we're covering this week:• ACLU fires warning shot at Mansfield ISD• Mansfield man shoots sleeping son and stepdaughter in the heat of a domestic dispute• Innovation Corridor passes first reading in A Moment with the Mayor• Local nonprofit receives sizable donation• Feed the Kids for Summer starts this weekIn the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti talks about keeping your bones healthy in Methodist Mansfield News to Know.• Realtor Beth Steinke talks about the psychology of buying in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain serves up lemonade like you've never seen before in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve talks with Dr. Tonjia Grimble about a new E-Sports center coming to Mansfield where kids young and old can learn while they play. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance. We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Stories we're covering this week:• Have you protested your property tax bill yet?• School board poised to tackle district book policy• In sports, Lake Ridge baseball remains alive in the playoffsIn the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti says allergies are nothing to sneeze at in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Realtor Beth Steinke addresses common mistakes that buyers experience in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain serves up fresh strawberries and ginger in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve talks with a local couple who are taking a leap of faith in the entrepreneurial world. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance.We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield.

Welcome back to another episode of "Can We Be Real"Coming up today:The pros and cons for having 13 year old teenagers.Woman of a certain age over sharing onlineWe dive into another round of your secrets including someone stealing money.WTF is a car toilet?Chat GPT lets Aries know that their may be some difficult truths headed their way this weekWe would love you to be a part of the show if you have a secret you would like to share with Meshel. Share Your Secret Here!Thank you for checking out our podcast for the very first time. If you get the chance to share this with your friend and give us a star rating on Spotify and a review and star rating on Apple we would really appreciate it.Instagram: @Meshel_Laurie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sydney joins Meagan on the podcast today to share her VBAC story and talk about her experiences going past 42 weeks for both of her pregnancies. Meagan shares a story about one of her doula clients who went past 43 weeks! Sydney and Meagan discuss how due dates are calculated and the flaws behind the method that is so widely used.Meagan shares evidence-based information about the risks involved with being pregnant longer than 42 weeks as well as risks surrounding the choice to induce earlier. Having multiple sources of information along with your personal experiences and feelings will help you feel more empowered to make the right decisions surrounding when to birth your baby!Additional LinksBirthful Podcast Episode on Due DatesEBB: Evidence on Due Dates BlogHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello! It is The VBAC Link. My name is Meagan and we have another VBAC story for you today. In addition to the VBAC story, we're going to be talking about postdates. This is a really hot topic especially in the VBAC world because we have a lot of people, I don't want to say forced necessarily, but pressed to induce their labor. I think after the ARRIVE trial came out, it's become even more pressing to have a baby by 39 weeks. I feel like the way we view the new due dates is that 40 weeks is 41. 39 is 40. 38 is 39. I feel like in a lot of areas in the world, that is how our mental state has shifted and we don't really hear 41 weeks or 42 weeks as much anymore. Today, we have Sydney, and guess what you guys? She had 42 weeks and 5 days, right? Is that right Sydney with your first? Sydney: Mhmm, that's right. Yes. Meagan: And then 42 weeks and 3 days with the second. So you are one of those mamas that carry further along than a lot of people. We're going to actually make sure to have it here in the show notes but the Birthful Podcast, I don't know if you guys listen to Birthful Podcast but I love it. I'm not even expecting anymore. I'm done having kids but I still love listening to it because the guests that she has on there are just filled with information. I want to say the guest she had, her name was Gayle I want to say. Don't quote me on that. But she has an episode all about due dates and talking about how the body carries. Review of the WeekWe are going to get some more into that at the end but of course, we have a review of the week and then we will have Sydney share her VBAC story with you. This review is by Rachelmademusic. It says, “Such a gem of a show. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Julie and Meagan, for creating this supportive and powerful space for mamas like me to learn and prepare for our VBACs. I'm currently 33 weeks pregnant and preparing for my own VBAC. I can't begin to express just how thankful I am to have found this podcast. I am truly grateful for this resource and for all of the mamas who come onto this show and share their stories. There is such an incredible strength and collective wisdom to be found here and I highly recommend this podcast to anyone preparing for VBAC or not.”Oh, thank you so much Rachelmademusic. I would agree. This podcast is such a great platform for first, second-time, third-time moms, fourth-time moms, and not even just VBAC moms because there is so much information that is shared on this podcast that talks about how to avoid a Cesarean. When we have a Cesarean in the US, it's almost 32%. That's pretty stinking high especially when it used to be 5% way back in the day. Although our VBAC rates are also going up, Cesarean rates have just skyrocketed. So if we can learn how to avoid an unnecessary Cesarean or undesired which a lot of us have had undesired and unplanned or maybe unnecessary Cesareans, we can start lowering that. I think it could be super impactful to a lot of the world because as part of these stories, we hear these first-time Cesareans or second-time Cesareans and they don't always resonate with positivity. That is hard because we want our birth experiences to be positive. So yeah. I think that it's super important that anybody listens to all of these birth stories. Sydney's StoriesMeagan: Okay, welcome to the show, Sydney. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be here with us and share these stories. Sydney: Thank you. Meagan: Are you in Virginia? Is that correct? Sydney: Yep, I'm in Virginia. Meagan: Awesome. We're going to start trying to say where people are because a lot of the times, we'll get messages that will say, “Oh my gosh, I'm in the same area. Is there any way I could get their providers?” So it's fun to be like, “I'm in Virginia. I will listen to this too because I want a VBAC and I want to learn who is supportive or who is maybe not supportive.” Yes, okay. Well, I would love to just hear your story and share this with all of you women of strength listening. Sydney: Yeah, great. Okay, thanks. Yes, I'm Sydney. I'll just jump into my first birth story. I was pregnant actually during the pandemic. My due date was August 8, 2020. Meagan: Okay, in the thick of it, really. Sydney: Yes, right in the midst of it. We were planning to birth with our birth center here locally. I actually was living in Tennessee when I got pregnant then moved about halfway through and started prenatal care with a birth center here so I was planning for a natural birth and just sort of assumed everything would be fine. Women had been giving birth forever. I come from a lot of strong women having a lot of babies so I just did not even think. I assumed it would be fine. Meagan: Yeah, you didn't think anything of it. Yeah. Sydney: Yeah, this is just what people do. I'll be fine. Everything was pretty normal with the pregnancy. I got to 40 weeks and had no signs of labor. I was not really worried about it at that point. Then I started getting to the end of 41 weeks and I was like, “Hmm. Huh. What do I do now?” The midwives were really helpful and gave me of course all of the things to try. I tried all of the things. I was going to the chiropractor multiple times. I tried acupuncture. I was drinking tea. I was pumping and doing all of the things that they told me I should do to try and get labor going. I just was not having much luck. So finally we decided, “Okay.” I was going to be 42 weeks on a Saturday so we thought, “I'll try the big guns, castor oil, on Saturday.” Something happened with the midwife. She wasn't ready for me to do it on Saturday so we had to wait until Monday which was 42+2. I took it first thing Monday morning at 6:00 or 7:00 AM. I could not keep it down. I threw it up so I had to do it again which was horrible. I hated it. I was like, “I'm never doing this again.”Meagan: Did you drink it straight? Did they have you mix it in a concoction? Sydney: They had me do a milkshake with vanilla ice cream, peanut butter, and castor oil. Meagan: Yeah, that's actually similar to what I drank. Sydney: Really? Okay. Meagan: Yeah, with my second. It's gross. Sydney: It was still so disgusting. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Sydney: I did it a second time. The castor oil did its job. It got some contractions going but I was walking a lot to just keep them doing anything. That sort of continued through Tuesday. I was having just mild contractions on and off. Then by Wednesday morning which was when I was 42+4, they were strong and consistent. The midwives were like, “Okay, we think you're ready to come in. Let's get things going.”I remember they had to meet us at the birth center. It was 7:30 in the morning. I got there and apparently, another mom had beat me there. She was also in labor. So as soon as I walked in, I'm a first-time pregnant mom, she is pushing her baby out and screaming. It was the most terrifying thing I had ever heard. Literally, I think my cervix just closed up and was like, “Nope. Not doing that.” I literally didn't have contractions for a couple of hours after that. It all stopped. Meagan: Yeah. Sydney: That was unfortunate, Meagan: That can happen. That can really happen though. It doesn't even matter. Maybe nothing significant like a woman screaming in labor, it doesn't have to seem significant. It can be just shifting from the car to the hospital or your home to the car or downstairs to upstairs. Something off can calm things down. Sydney: It did, yeah. Meagan: Sometimes it's just your body responding and needing a break. Sydney: Yeah, yeah and that's really what happened. The midwives worked with me all day. We were doing Miles Circuit. I remember that it was August so it was scorching outside. They had me climbing hills and stairs and curb walking. They made my husband stay inside and take a nap because he was exhausted. I was doing all of the things, pumping every half an hour and they were giving me tinctures every 30 minutes. Still, by 5:00, I think I was maybe 3 centimeters but contractions were not picking up. They weren't strong enough and we were both exhausted so the midwives were like, “All right. I think the best plan is for you to go home, drink a glass of wine and take some Tylenol PM. Let's get these mild contractions to stop so you can relax and then you probably need to go be induced in the morning.” Because at this point, we were 42 and 4. I was starting to get uncomfortable. I was just exhausted. They were like, “It probably would be beneficial for you at this point to be induced and have an epidural so you can just rest and relax and let your body do what it needs to do.” That was our plan. We went home and did that. It worked for a couple of hours but the contractions actually really picked up overnight so by 4:30, I was like, “We need to go. I can't do this anymore.” I think we did the wine and Tylenol PM again later in the night and it just was not working. So at this point, I was like, “Okay. We're ready to go.” We ended up going to the hospital. By the time I got there, they were like, “You do not need to be induced. You're already in active labor.” I was like, “Okay, great. Let's do this.” We labored for a while and decided later that morning to try for an epidural so that I could just get some rest because we were so tired. As soon as I got into position for the epidural, the baby's heart rate decelerated so there was panic. There were a ton of people in the room. They were doing oxygen. They wanted to check the baby's position to see if the baby had maybe dropped or something but the baby stabilized almost immediately. They said I was at an 8. I was like, “Oh wow. Okay. Forget the epidural. Let's just do it.” I continued to labor for a couple of hours and they checked me again. This was probably at 11:00 and they said I was at a 4. Meagan: What?!Sydney: I was like, “Huh? What?” I don't know if the first person got it wrong. I have no idea what happened but I was in a different position when they checked me. It was a whole thing. Meagan: It's happened. I've been to births where that's happened where they were like, “Oh, you are 9 centimeters,” and getting the cart out, then getting the provider to come in then the provider comes in and is like, “She's 5 centimeters,” then we're like, “What?” The one provider explained to me and the team said that sometimes if we have a really, really stretchy, favorable cervix, especially during a contraction or certain positions, it can feel thinner than it is or feel like it is dilated more than it is and then they change that or a different person checks and they're like, “Yeah, no.” But man, that's a frustrating scenario. Sydney: I was devastated. So at that point, I was like, “All right, bring me the epidural.” I'm only at 4 centimeters.Meagan: Yeah. Change of plans, let's do that again. Sydney: I cannot go much longer. So they were bringing the epidural. Meanwhile, they decided to break my water because she could feel the water and there was meconium in it so that gave them a red flag. When they went to bring the epidural and I got into position, the same thing happened. Baby's heart rate went this time way, way down into the 20s. Meagan: Like something is being compressed. Sydney: Yeah, so at that point it wasn't even a question. They rushed me out for a C-section immediately. By the time we got to the OR, baby had stabilized but they were like, “You're both exhausted. We need to get this baby out. You've been doing this way too long,” and I was postdated and there was meconium so I think there was a lot of concern. Then they went to give me a spinal tap so I could be awake and it didn't take. They did it twice and it didn't take. Meagan: Did the baby's heart rate react then?Sydney: Not that I know of. Meagan: It's not working. It's not working, yeah. Sydney: So they put me under and I birthed my baby asleep which was a whole thing but she was on my chest not too much after she was born and I was able to nurse immediately. They tried to be really accommodating to me and they were very mother/baby friendly. Meagan: Yeah. Did they bring you back pretty quickly? Sydney: Yeah. Meagan: Like you were awake right after? Sydney: Yes, pretty much. I think they were still working on me while I was awake. Meagan: Okay, yeah. Sydney: And then my husband was able to be there. He got to see her first while they were examining her. It all was fine. We were both healthy and we were okay but it was a little bit of a traumatic experience and not what we were planning for at all from a natural birth to a total C-section. Moving on to being pregnant again, I was like, “All right. What do I want to do now because it feels like the natural birth didn't go well but this time around–” I don't know. I felt like I was more prepared and knew a lot more. There were a lot of choices I made with the first birth that I knew I wouldn't make with the second. I had said, “I'm not going past 42 weeks.” Obviously, I didn't but that was my mindset. I was like, “I'm going to do what I can to have the baby ahead of time.” So anyways, my second baby was due July 10, 2022, so just under two years later. I did decide to go with the birth center again, the same birth center. We had a good prenatal experience there and I love the midwives there. And again, I felt like I was more knowledgeable this time around. I knew that I was getting a doula. I did not have that the first time. I knew that I wanted to set myself up for success as much as I could. So again, I was doing everything I knew to do to shorten the pregnancy. I went to the chiropractor early and I went consistently every week. I drank lots of the Nora tea. I started pumping at 36 weeks every day. I was taking Gentle Birth and walked consistently. Meagan: So great. Sydney: I was doing everything. The pregnancy was fairly normal. This baby was breech at 34 weeks and I was so discouraged because I was like, “I'm a VBAC. A lot of people aren't going to want to do that.” Even my midwives were a little bit hesitant to do that because I had never had a vaginal birth. They usually are good with breech births, but with my situation, they were like, “We're not sure we want to take that risk.” So I knew my chances of VBAC with a breech baby were very low. So I was doing inversions. I did acupuncture. I put frozen peas on my belly. I did everything that people told me to do. He did flip by 36 weeks which I was very thankful for. So anyways, I'm doing all of these things to make sure that this pregnancy is shorter. At 40 weeks, I upped the walking. I started swimming but no signs of labor at all. At 41 weeks, the same thing. Not dilated at all, getting discouraged. And of course, during this time, we're doing a lot of non-stress tests and trying to make sure that baby is still doing well. Around 42 weeks again, I said, “I'm not going past 42 weeks,” but of course when it gets to that point, I'm like, “Just a couple of more days. I want to do everything I can to have the birth that I want.” So at 42 weeks, I was 1 centimeter and we were all so thankful. The midwife did a sweep and I did castor oil again. I tried to hit it with everything in one day. I think I ended up doing the castor oil three times because it wasn't doing anything. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Sydney: So eventually, it worked and I got some contractions at midnight to 3:00 AM and then it just sort of fizzled out. I just kept having really mild contractions. At 42 weeks and 3 days, I decided that there was not much more I can do at this point. I need to go be induced because we really were trying everything. They were not getting strong enough or consistent enough to make any progress. Meagan: Again, post date. Sydney: Right, right. My body is going this long, so do I trust that? I know that the risk goes up significantly after 42 weeks from what I've heard and read so it's weighing that balance of, “I know baby's okay but how long am I willing to wait this out and take risks?” So I decided to go be induced. They put me in triage at 7:00 AM on a Saturday and of course, the nurse was basically like, “You're this huge fish that doctors never see because you're a transfer. You're a VBAC. You're post dates.” Just all of these different things that made me an interesting patient. Meagan: All of the checkmarks against you here. Sydney: Yes. They were able to get us into a room later that morning. It had a tub. The nurse we had was really sweet. She knew that we were from a birth center. She was like, “I have this room with a tub. Someone's in it but if you can wait a couple of hours, you can get into that room.” So we got into the room with the tub. They started me with a Foley balloon and that did not take very long at all and then they started Pitocin at a very, very low level, like a 2 I think. Meagan: That's a really great, nice way to induce. A Foley with a low dose of 2 or 4 milliliters of Pit for a little bit. Sydney: Yeah, yeah. I was able to be in the tub for a little while. I stayed in there for a couple of hours and then I think around some time that afternoon at 3:00 I did ask for an epidural because again, I had been up for days at this point and needed to just rest. Meagan: So tired, yeah. Sydney: The anesthesiologist was in surgery so it was a few hours. I think they didn't come until 7:30 that evening. This time, everything went fine. I was able to get the epidural and get some rest. It was just like, “Wow. I did not anticipate feeling this good right now.” It was such a relief and I was able to get some rest. My doula came around then and was very helpful and sweet. Then around 11:30 that night, I started throwing up. They thought maybe it was the epidural. They said that can sometimes make people nauseous. They were checking all that and my doula was like, “She might be in transition. Why don't we check?” And I was fully dilated which was so exciting. I was getting ready to push and I was happy to finally be doing something and feeling productive. I was pushing for a while. After about an hour or so, the doctor that was with me switched out with another doctor. I think she had another surgery to be in or something. The doctor that came in was the doctor that did my first C-section. He almost immediately– he hadn't been in the room very long but he said that if I couldn't push the baby out that they would have to use forceps or do a C-section. Meagan: Had he been pushing with you at all at this point or did he just bluntly say these things before even assessing? Sydney: Yeah. He had been in there maybe for five minutes. I was so discouraged and my doula just looked at me and winked like, “Don't worry about that.” Meagan: Don't worry. Yeah. Ignore what he just said. Sydney: Yeah. I think it took me– we started pushing around 12:30 and then he was born I think at 2:30 or so. So 2-2 ½ hours of pushing. Meagan: That's not long at all. Sydney: It wasn't too bad. That was really sweet. I finally got to have a vaginal birth. My husband was there. He got to announce the gender and cut the cord. I got him on my chest immediately and it was really sweet. I did have a 3A tear which was–Meagan: 3rd degree, yeah. Sydney: Yeah. It was a tough recovery with that but otherwise, it was a really, really good experience. Again, not in the birth center, not the natural birth that I had envisioned but it went so much better than I could have anticipated. Meagan: Good. Sydney: I'm really thankful for that. Meagan: I want to talk about that a little bit before we get into due dates. Like you said, it wasn't the natural birth you anticipated, but in the end, you had an epidural that truly was such an amazing tool in your labor. At first, you couldn't get it, but then you were able to rest, and like you said, “I didn't anticipate feeling this good.” The world puts such shame on people for both sides actually of, “Hey, if you don't go unmedicated then you're crazy and you're going to have a C-section,” or “Hey, if you go unmedicated, you're crazy and then if you get an epidural then you're crazy and you're going to have a C-section.” It's just not that way. We need to take out these absolute statements of, “If you do this, you won't have this,” because it's not true. I can't tell you enough. We get so many emails of, “I really want to VBAC so badly but I just don't feel I can go unmedicated. It's not my personality. It's not what I desire.” They're like, “It just sucks that I can't have a VBAC because I don't want to go unmedicated.” I'm like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait. If you want a VBAC, you don't have to go unmedicated.” It's the same thing with induction. Are there some things around induction that may increase some risks or some chances? Yes. That doesn't mean it's going to happen though, right? This provider that started you out with this induction is a really great way to induce. Yeah. You had progressed a little bit before with your first so that's also a really great factor, but yeah. You don't have to go unmedicated to have a vaginal birth in general. I mean, look at all of the people that truly don't go unmedicated. It doesn't make you less of a person if you don't have an epidural. Something I love about your stories, both of them, is that you had the discussion with the midwives but you had this thing of, “Okay. We're going to go to the hospital now. I'm making this choice for me, for my baby, and this is what I feel good about.” I think that's important to note too. Sometimes plans change and plans can change. Sydney: Yes, yes. I held it a lot more loosely the second time around than I did the first. Meagan: Yeah. Well, I think it's just because in the world we get a lot of pressure and shame for decisions that we make. My kids are in a lot of sports and I get shamed for my kids being in sports and that has nothing to do with anybody else's life. Yeah. Listeners, you guys birth the way you desire. If that's a repeat Cesarean, that's a repeat Cesarean. If that's an induction, that's an induction. If it's unmedicated, medicated, or whatever it may be, birth the way you want. But on the way to birthing the way you want, make informed choices by getting the education and the knowledge behind every choice that you are making. Okay, so due dates. Here you have two babies that have gone over 42 weeks. Neither of them had many issues or anything. Maybe we had some mec which is common, especially in postdate babies. So I want to talk about what postdate means or what all of the terms mean. An early-term baby is between 37 and 38+6. That's an early-term baby. A full-term baby is 39 to 40+6. A late-term baby is 41-41+6 and then a post-term baby is 42 weeks or later. Technically, you had two postdate babies. I had an early, a full, and a late baby. I had three different ones. One of the resources that we love so much is Rebecca Dekker at Evidence Based Birth. If you guys have not checked out that website, it's so amazing. They turn studies into English for the people who can't understand a lot of these studies because it's really hard. They turn them into English. One of the things that she talks about on this specific blog which we'll have in the show notes is titled “Evidence on Due Dates.” One of the things she talks about, and shame me if I'm pronouncing this wrong, but it's called the Negel's Rule. It's something I had never really heard about until probably a year ago but back in the 40s, a professor in the Netherlands created this rule on how to calculate estimated due dates. She says, “Based on the records of 100 pregnant women, they have figured an estimated due date by adding 7 dates to their last period,” then that is 9 months. It's crazy though because if you think about this world and our periods as women, we are not the same. Nobody. I can guarantee you that I am not the same as my neighbor or my friend or even my sister. We have different cycles and this was based on a 28-day cycle ovulating on the 14th day. That just doesn't happen all of the time. I don't love the method because it can be different. On the Birthful Podcast, we talk about how people sometimes carry longer. That doesn't mean that they're super, super, super overdue. It just means that they have carried longer. In her blog, she talks about a person that had a 44-day cycle so she may have been viewed as 42 weeks or 41 weeks + 2 days, but really, she was 40 weeks. So we were adding a week and two days onto this due date and we're telling people that we're got a higher chance of stillbirth and things like that but really because of her long cycle, she is 40 weeks. It's just so hard. It's so hard. I mean, there is research and this blog is amazing but even then, it's hard. But we do want to talk about the risks of going past your due date. What risks, Sydney, did people tell you about going past your due dates? For you and baby, was there anything said that was very specific like, “If you go one more day, this is going to happen or more than likely to happen?” Sydney: The biggest thing that stands out in my mind is the meconium and the risk of baby aspirating and then also just the general risk of stillbirth going up after 42 weeks were the two obvious things that I remember. Meagan: Yeah. That is correct. The risk of moderate or thick meconium increases every week starting at 38 weeks. It's interesting. We don't know exactly why a baby has a bowel movement in utero all the time. Sometimes it's due dates. Maybe sometimes it's stress or a really fast transition or whatever. They just do. We don't know exactly why all of the time, but it does seem to peak between that 38-42 weeks. It's 3% at 37 weeks, 5% at 38 weeks, 8% at 39 weeks, 13% at 40, 17% at 41 and 18% at 42 weeks. An 18% chance that a baby may have a bowel movement within that 42 weeks. 18% might sound really, really high but to some people, they're like, “Okay, well if it happens.” Then like you were saying, we worry about the risk of aspiration. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. If it does, sometimes we have other issues. Another risk for infants is the increased chances of NICU admission. They were the lowest at 39 weeks at 3.9% and rose up to 7.2% at 42 weeks. Again, some people may look at that and say, “That's enough for me to have a baby at 39 weeks.” Some people might be like, “7.2%. I'll take the chances.” It's a totally personal preference. One of the other risks, and when I say risks, I'm really putting quotations around this because it's one of those eye-rollers for me. It's a big baby. A lot of providers will say, “Oh, your baby is going to get way big. You might not be able to have that vaginal birth.” Especially with VBACs, it's like, “Last time, your baby was larger.” Let's say last time your baby was 8 pounds, but this time it could be really big if you keep going. It shows that for greater than 9 pounds, 15 ounces rose during 38 weeks which is 0.5%, and then doubled at 42 weeks which is 6%. But I mean, we recorded a story last week with Morgan whose baby was 10 pounds, 12 ounces. Big babies still come out and they're just fine. It's hard to hear the risk of the big baby because why are we shaming these babies? It's fine if they're big. It's fine if they're chunky. We love when they're chunky. And then some of the risks of having a lower APGAR score or stillbirth. The stillbirth I think is probably one of the most intense risks that we look at. It's the scariest risk for obvious reasons. It says, “Absolute risk is an actual risk of something happening to you. For example, if the absolute risk of having a stillbirth at 41 risks was 1.7 out of 1000, then that means that 1.7 mothers of 1000 or 17 out of 10,000 will experience a stillbirth.” So you hear that and it's very scary. Then it says, “Relative risk is the risk of something happening to you in comparison to somebody else. If someone said that the risk of a stillbirth at 42 weeks compared to 41 weeks was 94% higher, then that sounds like a lot but some people may consider that that actual or absolute risk is still quite low at 1.7 versus 3.2.” We've had a post like this. It actually stirred up a lot of angst because we talked about some absolute risk and some relative risk and actual risk, but really it can be very scary to hear a 94% higher chance than a 3.2% chance. Ultimately, yes. There are risks of stillbirth the longer we go. There are risks of placental issues or infections in moms because there is a whole other category of risks for moms that we a lot of the time don't talk about too much. But yeah. It's just a matter of what is best for you. At the beginning of the podcast, you said, “I haven't met a lot of people who have carried as long as me.” I was telling you that in eight and a half years of being a doula, I have had one client specifically– I've had some 42-weekers at one or two days, but one client specifically who went 43 weeks and 1 day. It started at 40 weeks. Her provider was like, “You have to induce. You have to induce. You have to induce. She was like, “No, I don't want to.” Then at 41 weeks, the same thing happened. “You have to induce.” At 42 weeks, she was like, “I'm over it. I don't want to be here anymore.” She called me and she was like, “I'm changing providers. Does that change anything?” Her home was farther away from me than her hospital location so she was like, “I'm changing providers. Does that change anything to do with you supporting me? Because I need to know if I need to find a provider closer to you or if you'll come to me.” I'm like, “Yeah. I'll go wherever you go.” So she called I think it was the next day. At this point, she was 42 weeks + 1 day. She was like, “I found a provider. She's out here by me. She's going to support me.” I'm like, “Okay, great.” She goes to 42 weeks and the doctor is like, “We're going to do two non-stress tests this week. We're just going to check.” They did and they were like, “Everything's great. No problem. Baby might be on the larger side, but other than that, everything's looking great.” At the next one, she was like, “Yep. Everything's looking good.” She's now at 42 weeks and 5 days. I'm like, “Wow.” This is the first and this is in the very beginning of my doula career. I'm like, “Does this really happen? What is happening?” I was feeling nervous because I still didn't know much then. Anyway, at 43 weeks or the day before 43 weeks, she went to her provider and they were like, “You're really not showing a ton of progress. You're barely effaced. You're maybe a centimeter.” Sydney: Oh my gosh. So triggering for me. Meagan: Yes. Well and for her, she was like, “I'm never going to have a baby.” She said that. She was anxious. She was like, “I think I'm going to be pregnant forever.” I'm like, “No, you're not going to be pregnant forever.” But you can understand where she's coming from. Sydney: Yeah. I just don't believe that people go into labor on their own. I just don't get that concept. Meagan: Yeah because of your situation which I totally understand. Yeah. They were like, “How about you come in tomorrow? Let's do this. Let's induce this labor. Let's have this baby.” So she called me and I was like, “Yeah, do it if you want to.” We went over everything so she was like, “Yeah, okay. I'm going to do it.” She actually started contracting through the night and we were like, “Oh, she's going into labor.” I do think she was actually going into labor because we went in. She had only progressed another half a centimeter but she was contracting. I wouldn't say that they were anything too crazy strong or anything but they were there. But then they did induce the labor with those contractions and at 43 weeks + 1 day, she had a really chunky little boy. Everything was really great. Nothing was wrong. He did have meconium. He pooped. They believe that he pooped on the way out so he wasn't super gray or anything but yeah. It's just very interesting. It's very, very interesting. Due dates are interesting and it might be a hangup for you for a long time. Sydney: Mhmm. I always was so curious about this and they said, “We think you're probably just one of those women that if we let you go, you would naturally go to 43 or 44 weeks. Some women just carry longer. Some women carry shorter. Everyone is different.” Meagan: Yep. Yep. I keep thinking Gayle. Gayle is what is coming to my mind for the podcast with Birthful. She talks about that. Some people just go to 43 and 44 weeks. It's crazy but again, back to what was in that study on Rebecca Dekker's blog is that it's not that she was 42 or 43 weeks. That's where the hangup in my mind comes from. This is where she is based on her last period based on this calculation that Google does or the little wheel. My doctor back in the day had a little wheel to tell me when I was due. That doesn't mean that that's when my baby is due and it doesn't mean that I had that 28-day cycle and I ovulated at day 14. Really, that's my hang-up in my head. What more can we do with these due dates? How can we calculate these due dates better because, in my opinion, induction is also really, really high? We've got a high Cesarean rate, a high induction rate, and a lot of people going in. Induction is just fine if that's what you are wanting but a lot of people are getting that pressure to induce and they are getting these scary things being said. Let's figure out what these due dates and these guesstimation dates really mean. Honestly, there is not enough evidence without induction and stuff like that, I don't think, to really, really, really, really know what the average length of pregnancy is. Sydney: Yeah, that's probably a good point because people just don't go that long. They get induced. Meagan: Yeah, they just don't. In your mind, you're like, “I wholeheartedly do not believe that anyone can go into spontaneous labor. I don't get it,” because you've had two experiences and it makes sense. You're welcome to feel that way but at the same time, it's like what is missing here? Like your midwife said, “You're probably one of those that we would let you go and you would go.” But does that really mean you're 44 weeks? Does that mean you're 41 or are you actually 42 at that point?”Sydney: Yeah. We do plan to have more at some point, but I'm going to track my cycle consistently and track the actual conception date if I can and make sure I know exactly when and probably even do an early ultrasound which I haven't done before just because it's always the question people want to ask. “Well, are you sure about your due date? Are you sure about your cycle?” I can't be 100% sure about my cycle but I can be 100% sure about when my last period was. I know what that is. Yeah. I field that question a lot. Meagan: You know, it's an interesting thing that just popped into my head. Remember when I told you earlier that I've had an early term, a full term, and a late term? With my third baby, we were crazy. We were trying for a boy specifically and my friend was like, “Read this book.” I was like, “I'm going to follow this to a T.” We had two girls and my husband was like, “This is the last. You have one more try to get your VBAC.” He was really, really stern on this one more baby. I was like, “Okay, fine.” I was waiting for him. Before he was ready, I started temping. I mean, going more extreme. It consumed me a little bit but I really got familiar with my body because I really wanted to try for this boy. Anyway, so I had temped and done everything. We conceived. I knew almost the hour. It was ridiculous. It was absolutely ridiculous. I knew exactly when I got pregnant and I was 41 weeks, 5 days but with my first, they said that my due date originally was October 26th and then she was measuring small so then they bumped it up to November 6th, 10 days later. She ended up coming November 4th but then I wondered, “Was I early? Was I late? What was I?” because I wasn't tracking. With my second, she came at 38 weeks, 5 days so it makes me wonder there too because I wasn't really paying attention but I felt very pregnant. But then she was small so they were like, “No, it was totally fine.” I'm like, “She was measuring small from the very beginning.” It always makes me wonder. Maybe I was closer to the 40-week mark or maybe I was almost 41 weeks. I don't know. It's fascinating. Sydney: It is, yeah. Meagan: And it's hard. It's hard because we don't know and we are only trying to do what's best. We are only trying to do what we are given the information on. As always, we have to follow our gut and decide what's best for us. We'll make sure to include those studies. If you guys are listening and you find this interesting too, go down to the show notes. Find it. Read them. Listen to the podcast. It's a really, really great episode. Anyway Sydney, thank you so much. Sydney: Thank you for having me on. Meagan: Thank you for bringing this conversation to the table because it's not one that we talk a lot about. But I'm sure you've got some frustration. Like you said, “It's kind of triggering to hear that.” Sydney: Yeah. It's not fair that I have to do all of this work before I actually go into labor. We'll see what I do for the next one. I've said, “I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to get induced at 42 weeks.” But I'm sure when the next one comes along, I'll be like, “No, I really want to try and do it naturally.”Meagan: Let's do the castor oil again. There are some ways to naturally induce like breast stimulation or sex and starting sex earlier on or evening primrose oil and things like that. Things that we can start doing at 38 weeks leading up. But even then, it's not a guarantee and sometimes it can be frustrating when you're like, “I'm doing all of the things. I'm taking castor oil and I've puked it back up three times and I'm still not having a baby.” Sydney: Yes. Well at this point, it will probably be a matter of, “I'm just going to trust my body. My body knows. My baby knows when they're ready to come out.” I just need to follow my intuition and weigh that risk like you talked about. Meagan: Yeah. Sydney: Yeah, but we'll see. I don't have to worry about it yet. I'm not rushing it. Meagan: You don't. You don't. You don't have to worry about it but keep grabbing the information so then you'll be prepared. Sydney: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Meagan: Awesome. Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Stories we're covering this week:• School board race ends in a landslide• Voters re-elect city council incumbents and one returning face• Council sends planned development back to the drawing board in A Moment with the Mayor• Two ballot propositions pass giving more leeway for economic development• Ben Barber culinary students cook up second place at NationalsIn the Features Section:• Angel Biasatti says ice cream may be good for your health in Methodist Mansfield News to Know• Are we in a buyer's or seller's market? Realtor Beth Steinke has the 4-1-1 in the Mansfield Real Estate Market Update• Brian Certain serves up a twist on the classic Mint Julep in the Cocktail of the WeekWe have the seven-day weather forecast and, in the talk segment, Steve concludes his talk with Sarah Zink, a longtime Mansfield resident who recently packed her bags for the tropical paradise that is Boquete, Panama. Plus, your chance to win a $25 gift card to a Mansfield restaurant of your choice with our Mansfield Trivia Question, courtesy of Joe Jenkins Farmers Insurance. We are Mansfield's only source for news, talk and information. This is About Mansfield. 

We are so excited to be joined by Mikaella as our guest and our dear Julie as a cohost today! Mikaella's VBAC story is one of redemption, healing, and embracing the unexpected. By allowing herself to recognize that her Cesarean birth was traumatic, Mikaella was able to begin her healing journey and prepare for her VBAC. As her birth progressed, plans changed from a faraway hospital to her local hospital to a fast and furious birth at home! Julie, Mikaella, and Meagan share thoughts on the importance of acknowledging our traumas and how to avoid comparing them to others. Additional LinksMikaella's InstagramClark Film and PhotoHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Good morning and welcome to The VBAC Link or maybe it's the afternoon or evening or I don't even know. Whenever it is that you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, your host, and guess what, you guys? We have Julie today as a cohost!Julie: Yay! Hi. Meagan: It's always so fun to have Julie on and today is actually one of her own clients which is super fun. I love when we have a doula client on the podcast because you can just connect with the story and people are bouncing back and forth, so it is so fun. She is here from Utah, so we are all Utahns today here on the podcast. Review of the WeekWe're going to jump into a review, and then I'm going to tell you more about our guest Mikaella. Julie: Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. I was a little nervous this morning. I'm not going to lie. It's so strange being on here as a guest instead of a regular host. I don't know. It's just this weird little thing, but also I wanted to clarify that Mikaella is actually a birth photography and video client of mine. She had a separate doula, Jenessa who is incredible. But she's going to go into that more in her story, I'm sure about it. I do have a review and I love this review. It's incredible. It was by springr and the title of the review is, “Wow, Just Wow.” I love that. She says, “I'm what I like to consider a still pretty new mama, but I'm also a C-section mom. For a while, I really thought that's what I would always be. I hit some pretty dark places, but this podcast has given me light. I listen to multiple episodes a day and have a long stream of notes on my phone.” Let me add, I'm not pregnant again, but that's how prepared I want to be when we do get there for our next baby. This podcast has given me my first tool to get there. Recently, as quarantine life has become the new normal, I've almost always got an episode buzzing in my ear. My husband says I've got a bit of an addiction. I snapped back really quick and said, ‘I've got hope. It helps me believe in myself.' He quickly got quiet.” Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love that. Julie: Yeah. “These ladies answer personal messages asking for help. I just can't say enough good things. They are that good. This podcast is just that good. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.” This sounds familiar actually, this review. It might be somebody that has contacted me and wants to hire me as a doula when she gets pregnant. Now I'm just thinking because that review did sound a little bit familiar. Anyways, we've been talking for a bit of a year now and she's not even pregnant. Anyways, it might be. Who knows, it might be completely random and somebody else but when she said personal messages, I was like, “Oh, maybe.” Thank you so much to whoever left it. Meagan: Maybe. Well, I love that review. And you know what? That's okay if you are addicted to a podcast. I have podcasts that I'm addicted to and I always have an AirPod that I actually have lost now. There is one missing because apparently, I can't put it right back in the case. I just sit there and I listen to my podcast in one ear and then do life in the other while I'm doing things and that's okay. I love it though. I love that this podcast gives you hope. That is exactly why this podcast is the podcast. That is exactly why it is here. It's to give people hope, inspiration, and motivation, and to empower you to make choices that are best for you for your birthing day. So thank you so much for that review. Mikaella's StoriesMeagan: Okay, Mikaella. We are so excited to have Mikaella on. Mikaella: Hi. Meagan: Hi, yes. Thank you so much for taking the time today. You have a lot of things. You're a photographer, right as well? Mikaella: Yes, yep. Meagan: Okay, and then you have three kiddos and you have been a 911 dispatcher for five years. Love that. That's really cool. I love that you say trash reality TV is your guilty pleasure. That is so funny. I love that you also love Taco Bell because I have this weakness for Taco Bell too. In fact, we just went on a weekend trip for my daughter's gymnastics meet in St. George, Utah and we got a taco from St. George. You guys, it's the best Taco Bell taco I've ever had. Like seriously, St. George does it right. So when you are in St. George next time, you should go to Taco Bell. Julie: Meagan and Mikaella, you guys. I'm sorry but Taco Bell is not very good. Meagan: Do you know what? It depends on the Taco Bell because the Taco Bell by my house sucks. But St. George, holy cow. Even my husband was like, “That was the best Taco Bell ever.” I was like, “Right?” So I love that. I love that so much and I'm so excited to dive into this story because I love hearing the big baby stories. It sounds like you heard, “Big baby, big baby, big baby” for so long and so many people telling you that you're not a good candidate for VBAC, and then boom. Julie: Boom. Mikaella: Basically, that's the best way to put it. Meagan: So let's turn the time over to you to share your stories and how this big baby and a non-VBAC candidate mom rocked her VBAC. Mikaella: So I have three kids. I have a five-year-old Claire, a three-year-old Boston, and then Charlie is my VBAC baby. I feel like Charlie's VBAC story really starts with 21-year-old first-time mom Mikaella who knew nothing. I was along for the ride. I had no interest in pursuing any sort of birth education or anything like that especially with my mom's own traumatic birth history so I was like, “Whatever happens happens. It's fine.” For my first birth, that was okay. It wasn't that big of a deal. I do wish I had been equipped with more knowledge, but it was smooth sailing for the most part. She came on her own the morning of my scheduled induction so I was already in labor when I got there anyway. My body was doing what it was supposed to do. She ended up being vacuum assisted because she was posterior and then it ended up being a trend with all of my babies with them being posterior so that was a really big worry I had with Charlie. It just felt like a normal birth experience. And then Boston because Claire's was so normal, I went in feeling like, “Oh, nope. I've got it, no problem.” Then I was talked into an induction because I was along for the ride. I didn't know the ins and outs and the cascade of interventions and things like that. I was induced about a week early with him. Both he and Claire, my labors were about 12 hours long with lots and lots and lots of pushing. But with him, I felt completely out of control from being induced and having my dura nicked with the epidural. Then I had some major blood loss that was still unexplained there in the middle which was pretty traumatic. With him, I pushed for hours as well and he was just not coming out. He was so stuck. My provider was not pushy at all actually. He was very, “Here are your options. You can keep pushing. We can try a vacuum with him too, but if he gets stuck, it's going to be more complicated with him being farther down the birth canal.” So we opted for a C-section with him. I don't know. I think I reacted really strongly to the extra medication because I was numb from the chin down. It was a very unpleasant experience which just added the whole out-of-control feeling. I went in there and as I'm feeling them tugging, I didn't feel any pain which was great. I was feeling the tugging and then everybody starts laughing. I was like, “This is not the time to be laughing. What is going on?” They pulled him out and were like, “He's huge.” He was. He was a 12-pound baby. There was probably no way I was actually going to get him out on my own, but ever since having him, everyone was like, “Oh you just make big babies,” because my first baby was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. He was 12 pounds. Julie: And he's still such a big kid. Mikaella: He is a really big kid. Julie: He is so cute. Mikaella: He's bigger than all of the other kids in my preschooler's class and he's only three. He's just big like my whole mom's side of the family. So after his birth, it took a long time to be able to talk about it out loud. I posted a really watered-down and foggy version on Facebook as a birth announcement post, but I don't even remember writing half of it. I just remember feeling traumatized but not that the trauma was valid because I knew people with worse stories and that was something that I had to come to grips with. My trauma was still valid despite it not being maybe as bad as somebody else's. Meagan: Totally, yeah. Mikaella: I knew we wanted more kids, but there was so much anxiety surrounding the decision of when to have more kids so there was a little bit more of a gap between Boston and Charlie. I was still pretty afraid of birth until I had a life-changing experience attending a birth as a photographer. It was actually for Jenessa who ended up being my doula later down the road but it was this beautiful, intimate home birth. I found it so healing. She was singing through her contractions and the atmosphere was just so sweet and loving. She was definitely in charge and she knew what she wanted. She was a practical stranger at that point, but it was still such a positive experience to watch her have such a positive birth experience. It was life-changing. So then when I got pregnant again, I knew I did not want a C-section just based on how the last one had felt. I didn't even want an epidural based on the spinal headache I had gotten with my dura being nicked. I felt like having the epidural and not being able to move around during labor contributed a lot to both of my babies getting stuck, so I felt like being able to move in labor was going to be really important to me. My OB who delivered Boston was actually super supportive but I wasn't allowed to VBAC at the hospital. Where I live is a really rural area. He said he would send me north whenever I went into labor, but I really wanted to know my birth team. With that it option, it was just, “You get who you get and hopefully they're supportive of a VBAC too,” which I think we've all come to realize is hard to find VBAC-supportive providers. Meagan: Very, very, yeah.Mikaella: So when I was looking for a provider, I went through so many, but I began my research. I met with multiple providers and I just kept hearing, “You make big babies. You make big babies,” because Claire was 8 pounds, 9 ounces, and Boston was 12 pounds. “You just make big babies and it would just be easier for you to have a C-section. Here are all of the risks and complications of a VBAC,” but no one wants to talk about the complications of a repeat C-section, right? This one particular OB, I don't know if I can shout him out because he might be really upset. I want to make sure that no one else looking for a VBAC goes to him. He didn't even give me the decency of a conversation before completely shutting me down. I had gone in. I spoke with the nurse. She was like, “Whatever you want, you get. You are the birthing mom.” I was feeling on cloud 9. I was even texting my husband, “This is going so well,” as she was checking me in. I guess the casual conversation that I was having with her about my birth history, she relayed to him in the five-minute span before he came into the room and that was all it took for him to decide that I was not a good candidate for a VBAC at all. He didn't want to talk about the preparations I had made, that I had a doula, that I didn't feel as big as I was with Boston. None of that even mattered. Meagan: He just put a label on you and was done.Mikaella: Immediately. Immediately. There was no conversation about any of it. Not about my birth history. Even my original OB who delivered my last baby was like, “No, you can do that. That's fine,” but it just said that it made him and his staff uncomfortable. I ended up at Valley Women's Health, the Orem Midwives' Group at 35 weeks pregnant and I just stuck with them because they were the first ones to not tell me no right away. There were still some things that I was hesitant about. There was a lot of, “You'll have to do this and this and this. These are the requirements, but sure. We'll try,” kind of thing. I did, however, have to go through a VBAC consultation at Utah Valley where they all discuss the risks of a VBAC. Nothing about the risks of a repeat C-section of course. They had me sign all of those forms and then had me do a growth scan which showed Charlie being about three weeks ahead. She was going to be absolutely massive according to them. I did not feel big at all at least compared to my last two. I was more active in this labor. I was eating healthily. I was doing all of the stretches and sitting in the right positions to make sure that she wasn't posterior too. I just felt like I could do it. It really helped to feel like I was going to be in charge of this birth. My doula was very, very supportive all the way through. She was just like, “No. You've got this. You can do this. I know you and I know your willpower,” so she was a huge support that way and as well as my husband. He's never not backed me on anything. He's great. I should also add that the hospital where I was going to deliver is about an hour and a half away from me. Only like what, five minutes away from you, Julie? Julie: Yeah, it's about 20 minutes from me, but super far from you. Mikaella: Okay, you're a little bit further. I was thinking it was only about five minutes away. I was preparing to labor in the car. They had been like, “Are you sure you don't want to be induced?” I was like, “Nope. I don't want to intervene with this at all. My body is going to do its own process.” I was mentally preparing myself to labor for an hour and a half in our van. I had my husband get the puppy pads ready and line the bottom of the van with the puppy pads. I woke up to my strongest contraction at about 4:00 AM and that's when I began timing them. I got in the shower to see if they would get closer together and then they started getting closer together really fast. The timeline is kind of foggy, but the contractions were so strong. I texted my doula at 5:30 letting her know that my contractions were about 5-7 minutes apart and that I was going to try and leave soon. She was going to have plenty of time because she was right next to the hospital, but in reality, I had only maybe two more contractions that far apart. It was just happening and happening really fast. I called my mom. She was getting ready to come over and I woke up Preston and had him load up the car while I was getting dressed. I do actually wish I had had him with me during those moments, but at that point, I thought we were still going to make the hour-and-a-half drive to the hospital, so I was like, “No. Get this. Get my bag. Get my charger. Throw all of the things in there,” the last minute things and grab whatever. Just throw it in the van.So he was running around like crazy trying to make sure he's got everything. I couldn't even get my pants on in between the contractions. I was sitting in the same spot just powering through these contractions. I remember thinking, “There's no way that I can do this unmedicated. I'm going to get that epidural as soon as I get to the hospital,” because all that I've heard in all of my research is that when you think you can't do it anymore, that's when you're at the end. I was like, “Well, I just barely started. How am I supposed to make it any farther than this?” and not realizing that I was actually right there at the end with how quick it was all going. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Mikaella: Yeah. It was about 30 minutes later that I knew we were not going to make it up to Provo. I called my doula and I think that was all I said. “I think we're not going to make it to the hospital.” She's like, “Oh, okay. Well, get to Sanpete Valley,” the one that's only 20 minutes away. “They can't force you to do anything,” because that was my biggest worry. I was like, “I don't want them to just throw me on a table as soon as I get there.” That contraction that I had on the phone with her was actually the only one that I was able to have my husband doing counterpressure for. I was just bracing myself against the tub. He's doing his best because we really thought that I was going to have a doula there. She would be able to walk him through things. I wasn't the most prepared. I'm not going to lie as far as the actual coping mechanisms, I think, that I was going to use. I had a metal comb that is used for dog grooming that I was clutching in my hand as tight as possible. Meagan: Powerful. Mikaella: Yep. I loved having that thing. That was a godsend honestly.  My mom arrived at about 6:15 and I was just holding onto her. It's funny because the two births I attended were so peaceful and one like I said, Jenessa was singing through her contractions. It was a beautiful environment and then another friend of mine was low moaning. It was a quiet atmosphere still and I am just screaming. You could even hear it in the background of the 911 call that my husband had to make. I'm just losing it in the background. I'm like, “This is not the calm, cool atmosphere that I was expecting.”But my mom got there. I had a super strong contraction and I was just feeling the irresistible urge to push. When I sat back up after that contraction, I felt my water which was bulging and that's when I had to tell my husband to call 911. He was like, “Oh, okay. This is happening right now and right here. We are not making it to the hospital.” Because I am a 911 dispatcher, the operator that he called is my coworker, so I knew the instructions she was going to give me. I was not about to lay on my back even though she was about to tell me to. He kept telling me, “She says that you've got to get on my back.” “I am not getting on my back. That is not what I want to do right now. Just tell her to get the ambulance here. We'll make it work.”At that moment, I made it from my bedroom floor back to my bathroom which is the tiniest room in my house. I don't know why I felt like I needed to be in there. But the EMT that lives around the corner arrived as I was crowning. I'm holding onto my mom. I did finally end up laying down, but she arrived as I'm crowning. With one push, Charlie's head comes out and my EMT unwraps the cord that was wrapped around her neck. It was wrapped around twice so she was super nervous– the EMT was. Another push and she was out. She was super pink. She was a really healthy color. What was really cool was that this whole time, despite it not being my plan at all, there was no fear. There was never a sense of, “This is going wrong.” There was a little bit of panic and there were a lot of self-doubts there in that first hour, but there was no fear. I just was able to trust my body and know what I was doing despite none of it going to plan whatsoever which was a really cool experience. Then they load me up into the ambulance. They took me to the hospital which was where I delivered my placenta. We actually were only there for six hours because, for some reason when you don't deliver at the hospital, they're like, “Oh, you can actually go home,” which seemed backward to me but I wasn't about to fight it. Jenessa and Julie arrived around the same time. I didn't even call Julie myself. I just told Jenessa, I was like, “Please call Julie and let her know what's going on.” The rest is history. It was just the most amazing redemptive birth. I got basically everything I wanted. I had written out a list of birth goals that I had wanted and on that list was intermittent monitoring which, I didn't end up having any monitoring. Getting my VBAC was super important which I got. I didn't have to have an epidural. I didn't even have to get an IV. It was just completely and 100% me and that felt incredibly powerful. It's been a really, really cool story to share especially to other moms who are looking to do VBACs and stuff like that, especially after I was told, “You make big babies. You make big babies.” This was another big baby. She was a 9.5-pound baby who came out on my bathroom floor with no tearing whatsoever. I did that.  Meagan: And you did it. You did it very quickly. Very, very quickly. Mikaella: Very, very quickly. From the first contraction that woke me up to her being born was about 2.5 hours total compared to the 12 hours each for my first two kids. Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is amazing. That is so amazing. I'm sure on Julie's end, she was like, “Oh my gosh. I've got to make it. I've got to get there.” Julie: Well, let me tell you. Can I tell you my version really fast?Mikaella: Yes. Julie: So I met Mikaella. Oh, I don't even remember. It was a month or something like that before you had your baby or something like that? I was excited because I've had clients in the past drive up from 2.5 hours away up here to have their VBACs, so I love those stories. I love people that really want to fight for it. We connected and I got pulled onto the team. I was excited to do a birth with Jenessa as well. But that morning, I got a phone call from Jenessa. I want to say it was around 6:00 or 6:30, somewhere around there. It might be a little earlier. She told me that you were in labor, that you had to change plans and go to the local hospital instead, and that you were just going to wing it, push for your VBAC, and fight if you needed to. You were prepared to do that, but things were moving quickly and you weren't going to make it up to Orem. I was groggy and half awake. I'm like, “So does she still want me to come?”I think I asked that or whatever because you know when you're half awake, I'm like, “I have no idea what to say.” She said, “Yeah. Get dressed and start heading down.” She said she was on her way, so I got dressed and I grabbed my cameras and gear, and headed out. It was about an hour and twenty-minute drive for me or maybe just an hour. I'm not quite sure exactly. So I started heading down and then I was just like, “Please don't let me miss this birth. Please don't let me miss this birth.” I was so frustrated because I had missed two other births already this summer because of people having fast babies. I had one VBAC client that went from 3 centimeters to baby in an hour and they didn't call me in until she was pushing. I was like, “Why, why, why?” and then the other client that I missed had only a 41-minute labor and it was a 46-minute drive for me. I was on my way and I was like, “Please don't let me miss this birth. Please not another one. Please not another one.” But I was excited to be going and supporting Mikaella. As soon as I was getting ready to go through the canyon in Spanish Fork which is about halfway there, I got another call from Jenessa and she said, “She just delivered her baby on the bathroom floor.” I was like, “What?! She didn't even make it to the hospital?” I was so surprised. And yes, I was absolutely super sad to miss it, but I'm also super happy that Mikaella got everything she wanted. It's funny because we have pictures and video clips of you reading off your list of everything that you wanted and stuff. That was super fun to go. I still kept heading down and we did a nice golden hour session. I was there for a few hours with them and the kids came in to meet baby and everything. But it was wild. This summer was wild. There were so many crazy things happening with births and babies. I just actually had a 9.5-pound baby born about a week ago even, a 9-pound, 7-ounce birth center birth. I just love seeing these big babies come flying out into the world just as fierce as they want to be. I love it. I love your story. It's so wild. I'm excited that you get to tell it today. Mikaella: It's so fun. I love being able to tell it. I think it's really cool that Charlie's got that story that she can tell now too. Now even, she's got news articles that she can look back on. Meagan: Yes, I was going to say that you said earlier that the news had contacted you and you were on the news. How did that story get out? Were they just like, “Oh my gosh, this accidental home birth.” Did they talk about VBAC in there too? Mikaella: It was very interesting to see how they took my story and spun it. I won't say it wasn't factual, but they definitely put a certain light on it I guess you could say. Our local ambulance, two or three more of my coworkers work in the ambulance too so I'm really close with a lot of them. Meagan: I would really like to see this article. Julie: I'll send it to you or she can send it to you. One of us. Mikaella: I think that there's a video as well as an actual written one. So basically, our local hospital does an EMS highlight at the end of the year and they decided that they were going to highlight Ephraim's ambulance this year which is where I'm from and the story that they were going to highlight was Charlie's story. A big emphasis was put on the EMT which I totally appreciate her. I love her. She was a godsend in that moment that she was there and she knew what to do especially with the cord wrapped around Charlie's neck. There was not a lot about me in the article which I find interesting. It's not as much about the birthing mother despite it being a birth story. So when the interviewers actually came over to my house, we were just having a casual chitchat before the actual filming and the interview began. They were saying, “The hospital was worried that this was going to make people want to have a home birth. They were worried that we were advocating for a home birth.” She's like, “You weren't planning on having a home birth, right?” Julie: What? Mikaella: Yeah. I was like, “Not that there's anything wrong with having a home birth, but no. That wasn't the plan.” I was like, “It is now if I have another one. I'm probably just going to have it at home.” I found it interesting that the hospital was like, “Oh, we don't want to promote home birth because that's risky,” or whatever. Then in the article, it was very much about EMS which is fine because it was their highlight, but they kept saying, “The baby that came early, the baby that came early.” I was like, “She didn't come early.” She came maybe two days early before her due date, but she just came fast. Julie: Oh my gosh. What got me was like, “The cord was around her neck and it was so emergent.” They went and talked about how the cord wrapped around her neck was that they saved your baby's life. That's what people say. That's what people think, but we all know that the cord around the neck, 99% of the time is not a problem. Mikaella: Exactly. The EMT that delivered her is wonderful. I have fostered a relationship now with her after the fact and I know a lot of people that work on the crew, so I didn't mind them getting a little highlight, but it was very interesting to see how they spun it there at the end and how they spliced it together. I know they were trying to work with what they had because I was so nervous about sharing my story that I was kind of all over the place. Preston had to keep anchoring me and be like, “Don't forget about this part of the story. Don't forget about this part of the story.” I'm like, “Oh right. I know.” Meagan: Yeah. Mikaella: It's interesting, yeah. Meagan: It just goes to show just in general with news how things can be spun and taken a little bit more out of context to make it sound different or more desirable in one factor or another. When you have a perfectly safe, beautiful, vaginal birth after Cesarean with a larger-sized baby that was a fast, precipitous labor and then this amazing EMT comes in and they just help. How awesome it was that they were there. There was this nuchal cord and how nervewracking it was for them, but they knew what to do. They were trained and they helped. Instead of just talking like that, it's a little different so it's kind of funny to think about that but still so cool that Charlie can go back and see and be like, “Look. I even made it into the news because I came so fast.”Mikaella: Exactly, exactly. Yep. Not a lot of big things happen in our tiny town. Meagan: Yeah, yes. So oh my gosh, well thank you so much both Mikaella and Julie for being with us today. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: One of the things I just want to talk about really, really fast is something that you were talking about from your second birth. You say that you had trauma but you know other people have more intense trauma or whatever. Mikaella: Right. Meagan: I don't want you to discredit the trauma that you did have because, for you as an individual, the trauma that exists exists. It's okay and sometimes I feel like it's just natural for us to be like, “Well, I know I didn't have to have this, this, this, or this happens like that person which is more traumatic.” It seems more traumatic to the listening ear, but at the same time, you personally went through this traumatic situation. It's okay. You can own that and be like, “This was very traumatic for me and it sucked. I had to work through this.” I want everyone out there to know that it's okay. It's okay to accept your trauma and recognize that it is trauma because that's one of the hardest parts is recognizing that it's traumatic. I'm proud of you for recognizing that, “Yes. This is traumatic for me.” Even Julie I'm sure would have situations with her own births or her clients' births where sometimes we walk away as doulas and we're like, “It doesn't seem very traumatic to them,” but it was really traumatic for me and I wasn't even the one going through it. I was an observer and went through it that way, but it wasn't happening to me. Trauma just exists so differently for everyone. So for everyone listening out there, one recognizing your trauma like Mikaella did is so important. I know for me, I think I told the story of how I was in the driveway stomping around processing trauma that I didn't even realize that I still had. Trauma is one of the best things that you can do, so I want to just really quickly talk about Julie because Julie is on the podcast today too. She actually did a really cool YouTube video on our YouTube at The VBAC Link and it's a smokeless– Julie: Smokeless unless you have lots of people doing it. Meagan: Yes, we did it one time with a lot of people and we definitely had smoke. Julie: We set off the fire alarm. That was awesome. Meagan: Yes we did. But yeah, check it out because even the smallest traumas may resonate largely inside and impact the result. So definitely check that out on YouTube at The VBAC Link. It's smokeless fear release. Julie: Smokeless fire fear release. Can I add something really fast about trauma because you know how I am with trauma? Meagan: Yeah, you've learned a lot about trauma. Julie: I went through a big, massive trauma-processing PTSD thing in 2021 and it was super intense. It was a lot of therapy and a lot of sessions. There were group sessions and everything like that. One thing that is so interesting is how everybody perceives their trauma differently. I feel like everybody feels like, “Oh, my trauma is not as bad” or “This person's trauma is way worse.” Meagan: We compare. We compare. Julie: Yeah, we do. There are people that are like, “I never would have survived the things that you went through in your childhood,” and I was like, “Dude. Are you kidding me? You saw this and this and that and I can't even imagine going through that.” It's really interesting because we do. We tend to compare, but one thing that I've learned through that process and one thing that I tell people, one thing that I want people to remember and know and one thing that I want to remember myself whenever I am feeling like maybe my stuff is not as bad as somebody else's is that trauma is trauma. There's no capital trauma or small trauma. It's trauma. The thing about trauma is our bodies and minds respond the same no matter what that trauma is. There are physical and emotional symptoms that come when trauma happens and those symptoms are the same no matter if you feel like your trauma is more or less than another person's. All of the symptoms are the same. We all go through those same things. Our bodies feel it the same. It may manifest differently and things like that, but trauma responses are trauma responses. And processing through them, it doesn't matter what caused the trauma.The trauma is there and it lives there. That is something that we all have the same. You know what I mean? No matter what the trauma was. I think that I see it so much Mikaella. When you said that, I was like, “I want to talk about this.” But yeah. Don't discount it because it lives inside of you the same as everybody else's does no matter what the circumstances were. Mikaella: Definitely.Meagan: Yes. I love that. I love that and it is pretty crazy to think about all of the women that have experienced birth trauma. I mean, it's upward towards 1 in 9 of people who are actually diagnosed, and then think about all of the people that don't seek help. We've got a lot of trauma out there. It makes me sad that it happens, but I love that you said that. I love that so much. So thank you. Julie: Yeah. Mikaella: Something I've noticed too on the trauma side is that so many women don't recognize it as trauma because they have been conditioned to think that birth is just a big, scary, traumatic thing that happens. When you have that trauma, that's just what comes along with birth, but hey, at least you're still here. My mom has her own traumatic birth history and she would not say it's not traumatic. She would definitely be the first to tell you, “No. That was trauma.” But my mother-in-law and I have sisters-in-law and they have all had one thing or another, but it's like, “Well, but my baby and me are here so it's fine.” Meagan: Exactly. Mikaella: The trauma is still so valid and it took me a long time to realize that and push against what has been perceived as normal for so long to recognize that no, it was traumatic for me. Just because it wasn't as bad as somebody else's or just because the baby and I are here and healthy, that doesn't mean that it wasn't traumatic. Due to that trauma, it took me a long time to even see a doctor when I found out that I was pregnant because I was like, “Nope because that makes it real. That makes this pregnancy real.” So even after having some healing experiences, it was still like my body was postponing calling the doctor and making an appointment. My body was postponing and putting off all of the things that I needed to do to prepare. It had its own kind of trauma response. Meagan: Exactly. That's one of the reasons why I congratulate you for recognizing that because so often, I didn't even recognize it until I was in labor and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I have all of these trauma factors that I'm now letting out in labor.” It's so hard. It's natural, I feel like, for our minds to downplay it and be like, “Well, but I got this so I shouldn't be traumatized or I shouldn't have fear or I shouldn't have sadness because I do have my baby and I'm okay overall,” but that doesn't mean we have to write it off. We don't have to write it off. We don't have to push it down the tunnel and just forget it ever happened because we have a healthy mom and a healthy baby. There was one birth that I was at here in Murray and the mom ended up having a Cesarean. It was a, I would say, pushed Cesarean more than a needed Cesarean. She didn't want it and she was crying. Lots of things were happening and I ended up going into the OR on this. It was a traumatic Cesarean. It really was. And then after, the doctor said to me, he pulled me aside and he goes, “Well, isn't she just happy now that she has her baby? Can't she just let all of that stuff go?” Because I stepped out to give them a moment because they were really upset. I just wanted to let them be together. It was clear to me that they just wanted a moment just the two of them and their baby. I said, “I don't think it works that way.” He goes, “Well, that's how it should work.” Julie: Wow. Meagan: I will never, ever forget that. It was like, “You totally just pushed her trauma aside. You did your job. You got the baby here, but now what happened leading up to that, what happened during it, and what's happening after shouldn't matter because she has her baby here.”Julie: Well, that's totally gaslighting. I mean, come on. Meagan: It was bad. He didn't say that to her. I hope that he never did, not that I know of it, but he said that to me. I was like, “You totally just discredited everything that she just experienced.” I was very frustrated. Julie: I hate the system. Meagan: You know, it's hard.Julie: I really do. Meagan: It's hard because I'm sure overall in his head, he just doesn't understand. He doesn't understand. He didn't experience that. Julie: Yep. Meagan: But that doesn't mean she should just be okay. So if you're one of those moms, and I'm going to tell you that there are lots of us out there that are like, “Okay, well it's okay because it's fine. I'm fine. I'll heal. My baby's here fine and safe.” We all should be glad and happy about that, but it's okay to accept that. It's okay to say, “You know, that was really hard. I didn't like that” or “That was triggering for me.” Like Julie said, the mind and the body and everything, we've got to work through it and we've got to accept it and it's really hard too. Mikaella: I want to add even if it's not necessarily traumatic, you're also still allowed to mourn a birth experience that you didn't get to have. Even if there was zero trauma involved, if you had something in your mind that you were working towards and didn't get it, that's still so valid. I know with Boston, my C-section, at the end I feel like it was necessary. I didn't feel pushed toward it or anything. I don't know that it would have been necessary had I gone without all of the interventions leading up to the C-section. At that point, the C-section was necessary but I definitely mourned the experience of not having a second vaginal birth. I feel like a lot of women feel that way because it's like, “Well, your baby is here and you're fine. Your birth wasn't even traumatic, so what's the matter?” But you're more than allowed to mourn a birth experience that you didn't get to have. Meagan: Right. Julie and I have talked about that all of these years on the podcast. It's okay to be happy for your baby and everything but also mourn. You don't have to only be happy or only be mourning or grieving the experience. They can go together. You can grieve the experience that you didn't receive while also being happy for your newborn baby. Mikaella: Exactly. Julie: Yep. It's complicated. It feels complicated, but it's not morally right or morally wrong to mourn the loss of a birth experience you wanted while being incredibly excited about your new baby. It's not. It's not morally right or morally wrong. It just is. It's okay to feel these things. It's okay to sit with them and it's okay for it to feel complicated. Meagan: Absolutely. Okay, ladies well thank you so much again for being here with us today. I do. I love your story. Honestly, I long for that birth. We're done having kids. We definitely are not having anymore, but I kind of long for it. Those fast, precipitous births can be really, really crazy and very intense because your body is doing a lot but it kind of sounds really fun too. Mikaella: I honestly enjoyed it. Out of all three, that was my most enjoyable birth and the easiest recovery afterward. I got to experience spontaneous pushing or the pushing reflex. The ejection reflex was so incredible because, with my other two, I pushed for hours and hours. It started as, “Let's do practice pushing,” and then it was just pushing and pushing. It was exhausting. So getting to feel the ejection reflex was honestly awesome. Painful, but it was awesome. Getting to just check all of those things off of my list and knowing that I can do it and taking charge of my own birth there at the end was really incredible. Meagan: I love it. Well, thank you. On that note, we will just leave on the positive. It was incredible, that positive note. Thank you again, both of you. Mikaella: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Happy New Year! We are kicking off 2023 with a podcast filled with doulas. Meagan is joined by one of our VBAC Link-trained doulas, Sarah, to welcome our guest, Holly. Holly is a wife, mama, RN, doula, and placenta encapsulator. Holly's first birth was a planned Cesarean due to breech presentation. Her second birth was a hospital VBAC with a long labor. Her most recent birth was a redemptive, quick, and dreamy HBAC (almost in her toilet)!Holly shares her tips on keeping a positive mindset through weeks of prodromal labor and how she was able to fight doubts and fears to achieve her beautiful HBAC. Additional LinksHolly's Doula WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Hello and happy 2023. I cannot believe we are starting a new year off, but I can't wait to see where this year takes us. Today, we have Sarah. She is back today. She actually was on a little bit ago, but we had some time craziness so we are having her back on for a full episode. So welcome, Sarah. Sarah: Hello, glad to be back. Meagan: So happy to have you back. So fun to be cohosting with our VBAC doulas. If you guys did not know, we have a VBAC doula certification for VBAC and we are going to start hearing from some of our VBAC doulas because I'm going to have them on here and there as cohosts. I'm so excited to have them on, share where they're at, and of course, have them be a part of this amazing community too. Sharing these stories and hearing these stories on the podcast seriously lights my day up. So on those days where I'm like, “Okay, we've got 4 hours of podcasts.” A lot of people might dread 4 hours of work, but I don't see it as 4 hours of work. I see it as 4 hours of inspiration and motivation for me to keep going on The VBAC Link and to share these stories with you. Review of the WeekWe have our friend Holly today and she's going to share her VBAC story but I'm going to have Sarah read a Review of the Week before we do. Sarah: Okay. This review is from Apple Podcasts and I hope I'm saying this username correctly, but it's Kyeiwaaglover. Meagan: Yeah. When I saw that I was like, “Kyoa?”Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover, I believe, and it says, “As a doula, I'm grateful for platforms like this to refer to clients and for me to learn as well. “Meagan: I love that. It's kind of fun. Today, we've got me, Sarah, Holly, and then Kyeiwaaglover– I don't even know how to say it. Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover. That's what I'm going with. Meagan: Yes. We are all doulas. A fun background story about Holly is she is actually a registered nurse by trade but after her VBAC, she found the passion like a lot of us and has since become a doula and a placenta encapsulator. I think it's fun how we're sharing a VBAC story, but together, even with the review, I didn't even make that connection until you just said that, but we're all doulas today so yay for doulas. I'm so excited to get into Holly's story. Holly's StoriesMeagan: Okay everybody. Holly, thank you so much for taking the time today to share your story. I know you've got your little one in a wrap strapped to your chest. So stinking adorable. How old is your baby? Holly: He is 7 weeks today. Meagan: 7 weeks!Holly: So we're going on 2 months. Meagan: Just really little and he was trying to turn into the camera. Holly: I know. Meagan: Well, we would love to turn the time over to you to share your VBAC story. And of course, your C-section story too if you would like. Holly: Absolutely. I have a bit of a journey with my birth stories. My first daughter is 4.5 now, so I was pregnant a little over 5 years ago with her. I was finishing up nursing school. I was really into the medical model of care at that point just being in nursing school and getting all of that information. During my pregnancy, it was my last semester, and I was with a midwife at a clinic. I overall had a great pregnancy and great care. I finished nursing school, took my MCLETS, finished everything, and so we were in the last few weeks of pregnancy and I got to about 41 weeks with her and we had those tests at the end so you can check to see their growth. Meagan: It's like a third-trimester ultrasound where they go through everything. Holly: You go overdue and they're like, “Let's make sure everything's okay.” Blah blah blah. A bunch of time went by and they can't tell you anything in the ultrasounds, and then my midwife had called me later that evening and she's like, “You know, your baby is actually breech and these are my recommendations,” and so on. At that point, I still had prepared myself for a natural birth. I didn't want to do an epidural. I wanted as few interventions as possible. I didn't even think of that as a thing that could happen, so it just tore my heart out. At 41 weeks, you're so emotional and so full of hormones so it took a long time for me to process it. I went and had a consult with an OB at the local hospital and they were like, “Well, we could try turning the baby, but at this point, you're 41 weeks. There's a lot of risk to it.” They're like, “Basically, your only option is a C-section.” I'm like, “Okay.”I didn't have all of the education and resources that I have now, so at that point, I had to put a lot of trust into the medical system and took their word for it and we had a planned C-section with her. But I was 41.5 weeks by the time we actually scheduled it, so it wasn't an emergency. They were like, “If you go into labor, it's an emergency, but we'll still schedule it for 3 or 4 days from now.”Overall, my C-section went really well. I was able to have my baby skin-to-skin right away. She never left me. We stayed together which was awesome. I had a really good recovery from that, thank God. There weren't huge traumas with it but once I got pregnant with my second, I realized how actually traumatic emotionally it was for me, so it took a lot of healing and processing to be able to give myself that second chance and to go for my first VBAC. About a year and a half later, I got pregnant with my second daughter. She is now 2.5 years old. At that point, I really had gotten into more– I was still working as a nurse and I had really gotten into more of natural living and natural solutions and just a holistic view of health. I had hired a doula. At that point, I was interviewing providers at the hospital and I hired a doula who was going through midwifery school. She was just a wealth of knowledge. I had a doula with my first baby, but it wasn't what I had expected out of a doula, unfortunately. But, my doula with my second baby was absolutely incredible. She just provided me with so much information and was there for me to support me, to help me through all of my emotions with my first birth. So talking with her about the providers I had interviewed and told her, “I still don't feel comfortable choosing one.” She was like, “Well, have you given home birth a thought or hiring a midwife?” I'm like, “Well, there are no midwives at the hospital that will take me because they can't take VBACs at the hospital.”And in Minnesota, home midwives are allowed to take on VBACs at home. They don't have huge restrictions there on the home birth midwives so I'm like, “Okay, well maybe. I don't know. There are these risks that I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that right now.” She's like, “Well, either way, you can always just interview one and get the information so you have both sides so you know which way you want to choose and you are fully informed.” I said, “Yeah. You're right.” So my husband and I interviewed a couple of midwives. One of them was a little iffy with taking us on. She didn't seem very comfortable with VBAC which was fine and another one was pretty good. She was more medically minded and then I interviewed a third midwife. She had a lot of experience with VBACs and was just overall matched really well with us. We ended up choosing to home birth with my second baby. That whole prenatal care with our home birth midwife was incredible. The prenatal care alone was just so different from a clinical setting. I was about 40 weeks at that point and we were going for our home birth. You get to that 40-week mark and you're just like, “Okay. When is this going to happen? I'm so ready to have this baby,” but also trying to trust your body and knowing when that time is right. So I was a couple of days away from 42 weeks and labor happened spontaneously. I labored at home with my doula and then my midwife came later on. My husband was there and my mom was there. I labored for a total of 24 hours and we ended up suspecting after checking my cervix and checking baby's position that she was stuck. Her head was flexed, so her chin was up instead of tucked down to her chest, so she was stuck on my pelvic bone for quite a while. After assessing the risks and everything, we ultimately decided to transfer to the hospital. The hospital was 5 minutes from us so it was one of those things where it was comforting knowing that it was so close, but also, in this pregnancy and in this experience with my second, I really had a hard time letting go of control and really trusting my body fully 100%. I think that also kind of affected the way I labored and my thought process. We transferred to the hospital and had a really great resident doctor. She was incredible. She was like, “You know, do your thing. Do what you need to do. Just let us know what you need.” The OB that was there was a different story, but I ended up laboring there for about 8 more hours and that included about an hour and a half of pushing. I had my first VBAC at the hospital and she came out just screaming and crying, eyes wide open. I just remember crying and saying, “We did it. We did it.” I couldn't believe it. I was just in shock and it was very healing. But later on, I found that there were still parts of it that were a little traumatic for me and I had things to heal from with that birth too even though I had successfully had a VBAC, it was different and not fully what I expected. So that leads me to my third and final baby here. We again decided to plan for a home birth. My daughter was a little less than 2 and my other daughter a little less than 4 when we got pregnant with him. Again, we decided to home-birth and my husband was like, “Are you sure? Last time we ended up going to the hospital. Do you think that's just going to be easier if we just plan for that this time?”I said, “No. Absolutely not. We're having this baby at home.” My mindset was so different. I started as a doula after my second daughter was born and I had really gotten into that natural birth and trusting your body and just knowing that our bodies were designed for this. Our bodies were perfectly designed for birth. Yes, there are times when medical intervention is needed, but really, I just was so in this mindset of, “I can do this. This is it. This is my redemption. I know I can do this.” I didn't even have to interview any midwives. I actually hired my doula from my second birth. She had become a midwife and was practicing and I just instantly knew her philosophy and her beliefs surrounding birth were exactly what I needed in my prenatal care and my birth, everything. We started seeing her from about 16 weeks onward and so we had all of our prenatal care at home. It was incredible. She really put everything into my hands which was what I wanted. I wanted control of the tests that we did and that we didn't do, everything. We weren't going to have an ultrasound to find out the sex but ultimately, my husband and I agreed to have a 20-week ultrasound at 23 weeks. We found out the sex and we were just so surprised and so happy because we were having a boy and if we were having a girl too, of course, we would have been just as happy, but at that point, I could get rid of all my girl clothes and start organizing and getting ready. It was just one of those things that my heart needed. So with my midwife that we had, like I said, she really put the control in my hands. I felt so much respect from her and I felt like in every decision I made, I was fully informed. I understood everything. I made the decisions that were best for me and my baby and our family. Leading up to my birth, those few weeks before, we talked about fears and if there was anything I needed to process before my labor. This time I was like, “No. Really, I feel good. I don't have any fears.” There was a part of me that was like, “What if we do transfer to the hospital?” but the other part of me was like, “Don't worry about that. Put that out. You've done it before. You know what to do,” so I put that part out of my head too. I was like, “Nope. We're having this baby at home.” We actually were planning to move cross country down to South Carolina in September so my midwife was like, “Do you feel okay about this timeline you're on?” I'm like, “Oh yeah. I'll go to 42 weeks and I'll still have 3 weeks before we have to move. It'll be fine.” She was just like, “I can't believe you're fine with that.” I'm like, “Yeah. I feel totally good about it. I have so much support.” My husband's family was coming right after the baby was born. The amount of support we had was exactly what we needed and I'm so thankful for that. Near the end of my pregnancy with our son, there were a couple of points where we actually thought he was breech, and those brought back a lot of feelings. I kept telling my midwife throughout my pregnancy, “This pregnancy feels a lot like my first just my cravings and everything.” She was like, “Okay.” We ended up thinking he was breech and I'm like, “Oh great. Here we go.” But at that point, I was like, “It doesn't matter what position he's in, I'm still letting myself go into labor. If he was breech, I was still going to birth him vaginally and everything.” It didn't matter to me but it was also like, “Okay, I have to prepare for this if this is a change of plans.” Another midwife locally has a little ultrasound that you can plug into your phone, so we checked quickly to see where his head was just so we could confirm and prepare if needed and she was like, “Yeah, I think he is breech. I think this is his head up here.” She was like, “Let me check a little bit lower,” so we checked a little bit lower, but it turns out that his head was super, super deep in my pelvis. I'm sure I probably was dilated too to maybe 2 or 3 with him because he was just so low in my pelvis that they were feeling his shoulders when they would palpate. I threw that out of the window. He was head down. We were good to go. The next few weeks, I was about 39 weeks, maybe a little before that, and I started having prodromal labor. I kept referring to it as that and I'd have contractions all day long, all day long, and then I'd go to sleep at night and they'd go away. Nothing would happen. They were fine. They weren't contractions where I'm like, “Oh man,” trying to breathe through or anything, but they were uncomfortable and they had changed from Braxton Hicks because I had Braxton Hicks throughout my pregnancy too. So they had changed. They were stronger and lower. It was just one of those things which messes with your head. You're like, “Okay. Could this be it? No, probably not. I'm just going to go to sleep,” and when you wake up in the morning, it's like, “Okay. No baby.” Weeks of that and it was just physically exhausting, mentally exhausting and then you get family who are like, “When's the baby coming?” You're like, “I don't know.” You want to tune everyone out, but at the same time, you can still hear them and you get in your own head. That's why now, with my own clients, I'm like, “Don't tell anyone your due date. Just don't. Tell them your birth month. Sometime in August. That is it,” because people mean well and they don't necessarily mean to be pushy with it, but–Meagan: I know. Holly: –-it's just one of those things where it doesn't help. It really doesn't. And then there was one weekend, I got up and I was 41 and 2 or 3 days. That weekend, I just told my husband, “We just need to go. I need to get out of the house. I need to go out and do things all day long. I don't want to be here contracting.” He's like, “Okay. All right. That's fine.” So we took the girls and we went to my sister's camper and we were there all day swimming and hanging out. I started having contractions like, “Oh man,” like twinging pains in my cervix. I'm like, “Okay. This is different. Maybe something's happening. I'm going to be patient and keep myself busy.” I went to the bathroom later on around dinnertime. I had actually brought my daughter to the bathroom and I'm like, “Okay, I'll go too.” I wiped and I'm like, “Oh my god, there's some mucus plug on my toilet paper. Yes. Things are happening. Okay. Back to trusting my body and knowing that everything is happening at the right time.” I went out, of course, and told my husband. He was like, “Okay. Do we need to go?” I'm like, “No. We're fine. We're going to stay here. We're going to finish our day then go home.” We went home and there were more contractions. It felt like there were more. Actually, a week before this– I forgot to mention this– my midwife was like, “Stop referring to it as prodromal labor. Think of it as early labor.” I'm like, “Okay. I've been in early labor for 2 weeks now. That's not helping, but okay.” Meagan: Well, I will say this though. Sometimes when we tell our clients, “Oh, it looks like it's prodromal labor,” they're like, “So you're telling me that I'm not laboring?” So maybe if we change it to early labor, it's just– I don't know. Like you said, it's just a really long early labor. Holly: Yeah. I know. And it kind of helps. It's all a process. It's all doing something. It's not for nothing. My body was doing– I don't know. Maybe he wasn't in the right position where my body wanted to birth him, but he wasn't finding the right position. Meagan: That's a lot of the time the reason why prodromal labor happens because our uterus is brilliant and it's trying to work and get our baby into the right spot before labor begins. Holly: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So much yes. So the next morning came around, I'm like, “Okay. I slept all night. That's great, but nothing happened. Okay. What are we going to do today?” So we drove 45 minutes north to my dad's house and my husband was like, “Do you think this is too far?” I'm like, “No, this is fine.” I thought this was going to be our last time at my dad's house before we had a baby and then move. I'm like, “This is what I need.” So we spent the day on the lake swimming and just hanging out. I still had those contractions and twinging. I'm like, “Okay. This is good. We're just having a nice time,” and then we went home and had dinner and went on a walk with our girls. I think it was that night, we had a couple of friends over. They were fixing something in my husband's car. I went back inside and got my girls to sleep. I went to the bathroom and I noticed even more mucus plug that night. I was like, “Okay. Awesome. We're on the right path still.” I went to sleep that night. Actually, early, early Monday– because that was a Sunday night– so early Monday morning at 3:00 AM, I was waking up to these stronger contractions and I was sleeping, but I was breathing through them. I could tell that it was more than what it was before. That morning comes and I told my husband. He actually had an interview for a new job that day virtually. He was like, “Well, I have to be at this interview.” I'm like, “Okay. It's fine. We're not going to have a baby yet.” I went throughout that day and I had these contractions where I was breathing through them. I was stopping what I was doing and shushing my girls and being like, “I need this moment to get through this, and then we're good.” My midwives came over to check on me and my contractions stopped. They went away. I was like, “Okay. This is obviously my body telling me that I need alone time.” They left and my contractions started coming back again. My girls were around. They are 4 and 2. They were just nuts at this point. It's kind of like my body knew to pull back for a while and then I actually went to Target with my mom Monday afternoon. We bought a rocking chair. I'm like, “I need a chair. This is going to happen soon. “ I wasn't going to get one because we were moving and then I'm like, “Nope. We're just going to do it.” We were walking around Target and I'm just having these contractions and stopping and she goes, “Are you sure we're okay to be here?” I'm like, “It's fine. Everything's fine. It's not happening yet.” I'm just in denial. We get home and we do our nightly walks with the girls and I'm curb walking and just trying to get things to keep going and get stronger. I texted my midwife. I'm like, “Yeah, they're like 10 minutes apart. Definitely stronger and lower and more painful, so yeah. We'll see what happens later.” She's like, “Okay. Whatever.”That night, we were outside and my daughter Hannah is my two-year-old. She's like, “I'm ready to go to bed.” I'm like, “Okay. Let's go.” We get her inside and my husband and my other daughter were outside playing still. I got her to bed and we just cuddled in her bed and got all of that oxytocin flowing. Then after that, my contractions were really starting to pick up and started to get a little closer together. They were about 8 minutes at this point. I started texting my husband. I'm like, “Where are you? Where's Callie? You need to get her to bed.” I called my husband's parents and I'm like, “Can you pray for me? I want you to pray over me now. I feel like something's going to happen here soon and maybe tonight's the night.” So just having that prayer really helped me calm down and really settle down. Then after that, my husband comes in with my daughter. She's not wanting to go to sleep and keeps coming out of her room. I told him, I'm like, “Okay.” I don't know what came over me, but I'm like, “You need to get her to bed right now. She cannot be out here anymore. I can't do this.” He goes, “Okay, all right.” Finally, she goes to sleep and stays in her room. He's in there with her until she falls asleep. So I'm like, “Okay. I'm going to make myself some toast and a snack and some tea and relax a little bit. Maybe just go to sleep.” So I'm in my kitchen and all of a sudden, this contraction just comes over my whole entire body. I'm like, “Oh man. This is it. This is the one. This is the start of it.” Finally, I took myself out of denial. I'm like, “Okay. Things are going to happen.” At the top of this contraction, I'm standing at the kitchen sink, and my water breaks. My husband is in my daughter's room. I don't have my phone on me and I'm just like, “Oh my god. Oh my god.”Meagan: Like, “Okay. This isn't going to stop. I don't think this is going to stop.” Holly: I know. I'm like, “This is real now. My water broke. This is actually happening.” It took my water breaking for me to actually believe it at this point. Thankfully, I was actually standing over a rug by my kitchen sink. I'm like, “Okay. This is great. I'm on a rug, but I want to move. I don't want to walk down to my room.” I stand there for a minute and I'm like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. Jason!” My husband's name is Jason. He doesn't hear me of course because he's in my daughter's room and so then I finally waddle all down the hallway down to our room. I get my phone and I text him. I said, “My water broke.” He texts back, “Great!”I don't know what he was thinking. I called my midwife and I was really calm. I was like, “Hey, my water broke and things are happening.” She goes, “Okay, great. How far apart are your contractions?” I'm like, “They're probably 6-8 minutes, 8ish minutes I guess.” She goes, “Okay, well why don't you time them for the next half hour and then text me and let me know how they are?” So I'm like, “Okay, I have some time.” Little did I know, she was actually texting my husband, “I'm on my way. I'll be there as soon as I can.” She's like, “I don't want to miss your birth.” My husband finally comes out of the room. I wasn't panicking but moreso excited and being like, “Okay. It's happening. This is it. This is what we've been preparing for and waiting for.” At this point, I was just emotional every day about wanting to have my baby and not be pregnant anymore. He was like, “Okay, great. What do you need from me?” At this point, I'm already cleaning up our room, and not because we were having our midwives but mostly because I wanted our room to be prepared. I had everything set up like my twinkle lights and my affirmations, everything. So at that point, my contractions were 3-4 minutes apart. So as soon as my water broke, they really got going. I was really starting to labor through them now and breathing and moaning and doing all of the labor things. I found my ideal position of laboring. I was on my knees hunched over my bed because my bed was just on the floor at that point.My husband was telling me, “What can I do? How can I help?” With my first VBAC, I had this weird, sharp, dull pain. It was so hard to describe. It was on my right leg from my butt all the way down to my heel. It was awful. It never went away. I couldn't find anything that made it comfortable, so I'm like, “Can you just massage my legs? I have that same pain this time through every contraction.” I think that was the only fearful thing. I didn't want to have that this time and of course, I did. So I'm like, “Just massage my legs,” so he grabbed some [towels] and he was massaging my leg through every contraction in between and then he was doing counterpressure on my back. At this point, things were really picking up very fast. So my water broke at about 8:40ish and then my midwife and her assistant midwife and then another student got there at about 9:40 because she lived about 45 minutes away. So then they got there and I was really in labor land and just really in the thick of it and I just remember thinking, “Why am I not getting a break? These contractions just keep coming quicker and quicker and I'm not having as much time in between. Why am I not getting a break?”She goes, “Well, things are happening fast.” I'm like, “Okay, all right,” and still not thinking anything of it. I was in the on-my-knees position laboring which felt super great and my husband was doing counterpressure perfectly through every single contraction, bless his heart. At one point, I'm like, “Okay, I've got to get up. I've got to go pee. It's been a while.” They're like, “Okay, you've got to get up. Let's go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet for a little bit. That'll be good for labor, for dilating, for everything.”I'm like, “Okay. I can do that.” It took all my might to stand up because his head was in my pelvis and– I don't know. Some women labor standing up and push and everything. I just cannot even imagine because I stood up and I just waddled. I'm like, “This is the weirdest feeling and so uncomfortable.” I got to the bathroom which is attached to our room thankfully. I got on the toilet and I remember being like, “I can't pee.” In my previous labor, that same thing happened and they actually gave me a catheter and took out a ton of pee which eventually actually helped my baby come down. So this time that happened, I'm like, “Oh no, we're going to have to put a catheter in.” She goes, “I don't know. Just give it some time.” We were on the toilet for maybe 10 minutes and I had a couple of contractions that felt good this time. They didn't hurt. They just felt like my body was– it's so hard to describe and now, looking back, I'm like, “Okay. That was my body pushing.” So this time I really got to experience that my body was actually doing it. I wasn't pushing. I wasn't doing anything. These contractions were just pushing my baby out. She was like, “Why don't you just put your hand down there and just see if you can feel baby?” To my surprise, I'm like, “Oh my god. His head was maybe a knuckle deep.” I'm sorry if that's too much information. But he was so close. He was right there. I'm like, “Oh my god. I'm doing it. My body is doing it. He's doing it. We're so close.” I had another very light contraction that didn't feel like it did anything at all. I'm like, “I don't know what that was, but I'm sure it was my body just getting a little bit of a break.” Still, at that point, I didn't think I was about to birth him, but another contraction came and I put my hand down. This contraction came on so suddenly and my body just was pushing. All of a sudden, I felt my baby's head emerge. My hand was over the top of his head. I was still on the toilet and I was like, “Oh my god. He's coming right now. I need to get off of this toilet. He cannot be born into the toilet. That cannot happen.” My midwife was in front of me beside the toilet and my husband was behind me. He was doing the counterpressure, so I told him, “You have to lift me up.” He was like, “Okay. Here's a stool back here.” I'm like, “No, I can't sit on a stool right now. You just need to hold me. He's coming. He's coming right now.” I told my midwife, “You have to catch him.” Our bathroom is tile. I'm like, “He can't hit the floor.” I mean, this is all coming out super quickly at this point. Things were just happening fast. So then his head was born and then my body stopped, and then it started contracting again and his whole body just came out. My midwife swooped him up and it was very quick. She brought him right up to my chest and he was right there with me. It was just like, “Oh my god.” I couldn't believe how quickly he came out and how my body had done so much work at that point. At first, he wasn't crying. He was actually very pale and floppy. It gives you a little bit of a panic. I'm calling out to him. I'm saying his name like, “Your mom's here. We're here. We love you.” Yeah. And then I saw one of the midwives give the Ambu bag to my midwife because it had been about a minute at that point and he hadn't quite pinked up and cried yet. We were just kind of giving him the time he needed. In my heart, I knew that he would be okay. I knew that he just needed some time and that he just came out so quickly. He was stunned. So just over a minute came and he started crying. They come and they're born and you're like, “Oh my god,” like, yes but then that first cry, and when they make that face and you're like, “Oh my god. Okay. He's here. We did it. Everything's okay.” It was just amazing how most of the time at a hospital if that were to happen– I say most of the time, but not always– they want to help them breathe. They want to suction them. They want to bag them. They want to do all of these things to help them breathe and we really just gave him that time that he needed to come into his body and be there with us. It wasn't traumatic for us at all. I think if someone would have put a bag on him or suctioned him, that would have been more traumatic than this experience. So he came to and he got pink and started crying. We were just holding him and oh my gosh. It was a different feeling than my first VBAC. I truly believed in my body's ability and my baby. We prayed so much about having our baby at home and we just felt so safe. My husband was there behind me. He was crying and I was crying. Everyone was crying at this point. My midwife and I were just so close. She is one of my really good friends too so it just made it that much more special. Meagan: Such an intimate time and everyone was probably feeling all of the things. That's how it was at my birth too. Everyone's watched you work so hard and go through all of this. Now you're here. You just did it so the emotions are high. Holly: Oh yeah. I just remember, they were like, “Do you want to sit down on the floor and get comfortable?” I'm like, “No. I just want to go to my bed.” “Are you sure? You just had a baby.” “I know. I just want to go to my bed. That's where I want to be.” That was a big reason why I wanted to birth at home. I just wanted to be in my bed. So I got in my bed. Another thing that we had actually thought near the end of my pregnancy was that there could have been a hiding twin where you hear with babies that are either really big or maybe there is a twin in there or something. I had a lot of fluid and he took up the space that he really wanted, so I started having these cramps again and she goes, “Do you mind if I actually listen?” No, I don't think she actually listened, but then when she felt it was like, “No, it's the placenta.” The clot behind the placenta was the hard spot we were feeling because my placenta was anterior. She goes, “Okay. I don't think there's another baby.” I'm like, “Oh god. I hope not. I'm not having another baby.” But no. Meagan: That would be a surprise. Holly: I know. I'm like, “No. That's not going to happen.” I don't know if that was intuitively or I just didn't want it to happen, but I'm like, “No.” And so about a half hour went by and then I was able to birth my placenta. I had my midwife assist me with it a little bit just because I hadn't done that with my second and because at the hospital, they managed it which actually wasn't what I wanted either so I didn't have that experience of naturally birthing my placenta yet, so I was just like, “Can I just have your assistance?” and she helped me with that. It came out perfectly and it was really cool because being a placenta encapsulator, I'm like, “I really want to assess and look at my own placenta,” and so I was able to do that. It was perfect. It looked great. My amniotic sac was just huge. I mean, you could just tell I had lots of water in there. He was actually only 7 pounds, 12 ounces so he was my smallest baby. But yeah. My first was 7 pounds, 15 ounces and then my second with my VBAC was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. So not a huge difference, super small, but I'm like, “Wow.” My husband and I had a bet that he would name him if he was under 7 pounds and I would name him if he was over 8 pounds. I'm like, “He's for sure going to be over 8 pounds. I've got this.” No, he won that one but I actually still named him. Sarah: That's an interesting way to choose who gets to pick the name. Holly: I know. And really, I knew that either way it goes, I still want the name that I want and he loved the name that I picked too. I'm like, “Okay, fine.” Since we couldn't agree on it, we made a bet. Meagan: I love that. That's so fun. Holly: Yeah. It was just such a good experience and it healed my first birth. It healed my second birth and it was just the most redemptive, healing birth I could ask for. It was the cherry on top of my birth experiences really. It was just amazing how I went from my C-section and then I went to my home birth transfer to the hospital but still had my VBAC and then had my VBAC at home on my terms and in my own space with the people that I chose to be there. Meagan: Yeah. You've kind of experienced a whole slew of outcomes which is fun and I'm assuming it will help you in your doula career too if you do have a home birth transfer client, you can say, “I get it. I've been here. This is what we're going to do when we get there,” and help them along the way. Holly: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's really shaped me into the person that I am today with my birth work. Meagan: Yes. Well, huge congrats. Holly: Thank you. Sarah: I think the most beautiful part of your story is your ability to really trust your body and I think a lot of moms underestimate that mindset concept. You worked on it. Meagan: It does. Holly: Yeah. It makes a huge difference. With my second, I tried, but there was still a part of me that was holding onto the what-ifs and I think that's partly due to when you have a C-section, you get that doubt put into you and I didn't even labor with my first. We went straight to a C-section, so it was like a first baby all over again and not even knowing what to expect at all even though I had a baby already. Sarah: Yeah. I think that's one of the harder things to really try to separate our births and especially as people that have had Cesareans to really dislocate that experience from our VBACs moving forward. Holly: Yes. Every birth is so different. Even within the same woman, your births can be so, so different. Babies are so different. It's amazing. It can be so much of the same, but so, so different. I went from a 36-hour labor and birth to 2 hours and 10 minutes from start to finish. Well, early labor was weeks, but I don't count that. My water broke and then 2 hours and 10 minutes later, he was born. It was just so fast. It wasn't too fast where I couldn't process it because I'm like, “As long as it's under 12 hours, I'll be happy.” It was just so fast. Meagan: I would love to know if there are any suggestions you would give for our listeners on getting to that place with your mindset. What tips would you suggest for getting into that mindset because it can be really, really hard? Holly: Yes. One aspect of it is you look at social media and if you are following accounts that aren't giving you positive, good information, I think that can be really hard. For me in the beginning, I started unfollowing all of these accounts that were not good for me and just started following accounts that were sharing positive birth stories and videos and all of the good things that I needed to fill my mind with. It made a really big difference for me. I watched birth videos with my daughters every day because at first, I really wanted them there, but they were both sleeping and that's what I needed in the end. But yeah. I think following accounts that give you good information that is positive, watching birth videos that have positive outcomes, and watching things and listening to the things about the birth that you want. I think that just makes a huge difference and helps your mindset. Meagan: I love that. Just jumping right into that space and not allowing any of the other things into that space, yeah. Love it. Holly: Just connecting with other women and that can be huge too. I'm a very faithful person and we prayed a lot during this pregnancy and through our birth. That's something that really helped me and just surrendering that I wanted to be in control of everything but surrendering that control too was huge. Meagan: That's awesome. I love it.  I love it so much. I love your picture. I can't wait for everyone to see it. If you're listening to it today, head over to our Instagram or Facebook and look at this incredible picture of her holding this sweet, little baby. Oh, it's beautiful. It is so beautiful. So thank you so much for sharing. Holly: Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I listen to your guys' podcasts all through my second pregnancy and it made such a big difference to me to hear other women's stories and different stories. It was so helpful to me, so thank you. Meagan: Yes. That's one of my favorite things. We were talking about it in the beginning. We love having people on that have listened through their whole pregnancy. They're like, “All of these stories have changed my life. Now I'm going to share my story to help someone change theirs.” I love it so much. Thank you again. Congrats. Sarah, thank you so much for being with us again. So fun and Happy New Year, everybody. Happy New Year. It's kind of weird to say that right now because it's October as we are recording. Holly: It'll be here sooner than we know. Meagan: It will be here so soon. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.   Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy