Podcast appearances and mentions of caleb kaltenbach

In this episode, Robert Watson welcomes special guest Caleb Kaltenbach to have a candid conversation around LGBTQ+ topics in today's culture. Caleb shares his personal journey, including the challenges he faced growing up with LGBTQ+ parents and finding faith in Jesus. They explore the power of asking questions, the complexity of fear, and the importance of embracing love and acceptance while upholding biblical convictions.Subscribe to receive our latest videos!Website: https://www.sunvalleycc.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sunvalleycc/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sunvalleycc/Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sunvalleyccTo support Sun Valley and help us continue to reach people all around the world click here: https://www.sunvalleycc.com/givingGod loves you no matter who you are, what you've done, or what's been done to you. This is the vision of Sun Valley Community Church, led by Pastor Chad Moore and based in Gilbert, AZ with multiple locations throughout the Phoenix valley.

This weekend, we're joined by special guest Caleb Kaltenbach as he helps us understand the tension between grace and truth, where transformation and genuine connection can happen. Discover how to love those with different perspectives and decisions, and find inspiration to follow Jesus above traditions and trends. Don't miss this insightful exploration of faith, fear, and the profound love that binds us all.Join us next weekend at The Branch Church and invite your friends and family!Find out what's going on at The Branch here: https://thebranch.org/eventsTo support this ministry, click here — https://rb.gy/rc53ux

This weekend, we're joined by special guest Caleb Kaltenbach as he helps us understand the tension between grace and truth, where transformation and genuine connection can happen. Discover how to love those with different perspectives and decisions, and find inspiration to follow Jesus above traditions and trends. Don't miss this insightful exploration of faith, fear, and the profound love that binds us all.Join us next weekend at The Branch Church and invite your friends and family!Find out what's going on at The Branch here: https://thebranch.org/eventsTo support this ministry, click here — https://rb.gy/rc53ux

Guest Pastor Caleb Kaltenbach, October 22, 2023

Message from Caleb Kaltenbach on October 22, 2023

Week three of "Truth In Tension" discusses marriage and the sanctity of the union between a man and a woman, emphasizing the divine intention for oneness in marriage as outlined in Genesis and reiterated by Jesus in the New Testament. We are challenged to trust and follow God's design, even in situations of disagreement and societal trends. -- Download the One Crossing app: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thecrossing.net/app⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ To support this ministry and help us continue to reach people all around the world click here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thecrossing.net/giving⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Helping people come to an intimate and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the vision of The Crossing, based in Quincy, IL with multiple locations throughout Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa.

The world tends to define individuals by their imperfections and messy circumstances. But God sees beyond the messiness, embracing everyone as His children with unconditional love. The church is a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united to glorify Himself! -- Download the One Crossing app: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thecrossing.net/app⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ To support this ministry and help us continue to reach people all around the world click here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://thecrossing.net/giving⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Helping people come to an intimate and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This is the vision of The Crossing, based in Quincy, IL with multiple locations throughout Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa.

WMLC | Caleb Kaltenbach by The Solomon Foundation

Caleb Kaltenbach is a pastor whose goal is to bring people from all walks of life closer to Jesus-specifically in the LGBTQ+ community. What should we do? This is a question many Christians are asking as they face shifting societal norms, conflicting opinions, and often inaccurate scriptural interpretations regarding those who identify as LGBTQ+. Caleb Kaltenbach believes there's a more helpful question:What am I willing to do to keep and build influence with ______________? Our love for others is best measured by the lengths we'll go to help them. He also recognizes that people find and follow Jesus better in community than in isolation. As a child raised by three activist gay parents, Caleb experienced firsthand the outrage of some Christians. That's why he is committed to creating a sense of belonging for all people. Fostering a culture of belonging is a messy process, but it holds a massive possibility for everyone involved: a growing relationship with Jesus.

It is May and Mental Health Awareness month. I can't think of anything better to focus on than our teens. I always loved working with teens, because I felt it was preventive medicine for their future. We have all heard the concerning statistics of how mental health issues are rising in teens. Suicide, anxiety and depression have skyrocketed (If you haven't listened to my Episode #80 on "Hope for the Problem of Suicide, w/Matthew Sleeth", check it out). This is only the start of the mental health issues, so it's hard to know where to focus.  What I have found over my 34+ years of counseling is that at the heart of most people's problems is Identity. And during the preteen/teen years is where this exploration hits a high note. Who am I? What is my value? What is my purpose? Am I seen, known, loved, accepted?  On this Podcast for the next 6 weeks, we will be focusing on the the journey of identity. In the cultural climate we are in, that means we need to address gender identity/confusion and gender dysphoria, because it seems this is the ‘measuring stick' youth (and adults) are being encouraged to use. As Christians' how do we help kids navigate this journey? My goal in this series is to have conversations; give information, educate, empower and equip parents, grandparents, leaders, and youth. I will not tell you what to do or how to think, although some of my opinions (as well as my guests) will come through.  I want us to think about these issues thoroughly and be equipped to help kids do the same. Today is an introduction and laying of the groundwork to these conversations. This is not the an easy topic to explore, but it's essential. We have an entire generation of youth who need hope and healing. Let's join together and help change their world. Resources:   Secular: *Brain Development: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/neuroscience/how-the-brain-develops *Partners For Ethical Care: “No Child is born in the wrong body”. https://www.partnersforethicalcare.com/?utm_campaign=a9048682-0163-4986-ba93-ee5f4f6ecb5a&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&utm_content=0647028a-3f6b-4ebe-b620-40dde3ccc412&cid=696458b6-640a-4b91-ba52-cc29ca6df33a *Scott Newgent: https://www.trevoices.org/  Fighting to stop childhood medical transition world-wide *Abigail Shrier "Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters" ⁠https://www.abigailshrier.com/ *" Correction: Transgender Surgery Provides No Mental Health Benefit": https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/ *Erin Friday: https://www.californiafamily.org/2023/02/california-mom-explains-how-she-rescued-her-daughter-from-transgenderism/ *Tavistock Gender Clinic closing: https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2023/04/22/i-worked-at-the-tavistock-gender-clinic-this-is-why-closing-it-was-the-right-move/   Christian Resources: * Dr. Ann E. Gilles, PhD. https://restoringthemosaic.ca/ *Sophia Galvin https://www.rainbowredemptionproject.com/ *Dr. Juli Slattery https://www.authenticintimacy.com/Juli    *Preston Sprinkle: https://www.centerforfaith.com/about/leadership/dr-preston-sprinkle *Lou Phillips: https:www.centerforfaith.com  *Sam Allberry: https://samallberry.com/  *Caleb Kaltenbach https://www.calebkaltenbach.com/  “Messy Truth” and “Messy Grace”  *Jackie Hill Perry, “Gay Girl, Good God”  https://jackiehillperry.com/ *Erwin W. Lutzer, "No Reason to Hide" *Rosaria Butterfield: https://rosariabutterfield.com/ "The Secret Life of an Unlikely Convert: AN ENGLISH PROFESSOR'S JOURNEY INTO CHRISTIAN FAITH" *Nancy Pearcy , "Love Thy Body”,  http://www.nancypearcey.com/  *Andrew Bunt, "Finding Your Best Identity: A Short Christian Introduction to Identity, Sexuality, and Gender” *Jonathan Morrow: https://www.jonathanmorrow.org/why-kids-need-a-biblical-worldview-and-where-to-start/             --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/angel-h-davis/message

Caleb Kaltenbach was raised by LGBT parents, marched in gay pride parades as a child and experienced firsthand the hatred and bitterness of some Christians toward his family. Invited to a Bible study by a friend, Caleb thought he would go and dismantle their faith, but was surprised to find a loving, caring God that wanted a relationship with him all along. From that day on, Caleb has dedicated his life to ministry and has become one of the nation's leading experts on how to help churches love and foster community with LGBTQ individuals without sacrificing theological convictions. On today's episode of Godly Goosebumps, Pastor Dudley Rutherford talks with Caleb Kaltenbach about growing up in the LGBTQ community with three gay parents, and how "Christians" interact with the LGBTQ community. Caleb also shares practical ways for us as Christians to love on and share the message of Jesus with the LGBTQ community. You can learn more about Caleb and his ministry Messy Grace at calebkaltenbach.com.

On today's episode, Jason, Josh, and Brendan sit down to discuss how to speak on LGBTQ issues with both truth and grace, purity culture and its effects on the church today, and how to cultivate a spirit of repentance.Additionally, we discuss our friend Caleb Kaltenbach's resources on how to navigate LGBTQ issues with truth in love. Those resources can be found by following the links below:Messy Grace (Free Audiobook)Messy Truth (Free Audiobook)For more information, please visit our WEBSITE.

Welcome guest speaker, Caleb Kaltenbach! Caleb, the research pastor at Shepherd Church in Los Angeles and founder of The Messy Grace Group.

Jonty and Ness crack open the Bible and dive into some of the most famous Bible verses that are used to talk about homosexuality to see what they actually say. We also hear from both Matthew Vines and Caleb Kaltenbach on these verses from a New York Times piece called Debating Bible Verses on Sexuality. Email us at filthyhopepod@gmail.comInstagramFacebookFacebook Discussion GroupCheck out our website: unitingheartandsoul.org Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Highly recommended book: "Messy Grace" by Caleb Kaltenbach

Blessed is the NationProverbs 14:34: Godliness makes a nation great, but sin is a disgrace to any people.On the heels of America's 4th of July birthday, we look into scripture to be challenged and inspired.Caleb KaltenbachJuly 7, 2022http://www.shepherdchurch.comhttp://www.wearesya.com

For more information visit mycalvary.com.

0:00 Intro, MJ and the Michael-phone 1:16 ice, robots, flannelgraph 3:52 Ephesians 4.32, 5.1-7 5:21 us versus them or us versus ourselves? 10:06 yelling on street corners, local church relationships 13:54 balancing empathy and truth, John 8 18:11 what is greed? excuses for sin 25:34 coarse joking, foolish talk and the drip 28:52 a look ahead, outro Everybody Always by Bob Goff https://www.amazon.com/Everybody-Always-Becoming-Setbacks-Difficult/dp/0718078136 Confronting Christianity by Rebecca McLaughlin https://www.amazon.com/Confronting-Christianity-Questions-Largest-Religion/dp/1433564238/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=confronting+christianity&qid=1648667974&s=books&sprefix=confronting%2Cstripbooks%2C94&sr=1-1 Messy Grace by Caleb Kaltenbach https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Grace-Parents-Sacrificing-Conviction/dp/1601427360/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1J4N32BHR76P9&keywords=messy+grace&qid=1648668016&s=books&sprefix=messy+grac%2Cstripbooks%2C104&sr=1-1 Do you have prayer requests? Get in touch directly with the team at WACC using this link: https://wacconline.org/prayer-request We look forward to hearing from you! Want to take the next step in getting involved at Washington Avenue Christian Church? Fill out this connect card and someone will reach out to you! https://wacconline.org/httpsconnect-cardcomrioeriyq66clduyrvf9v Stay in touch by signing up for our weekly newsletter! https://lp.constantcontactpages.com/su/RHyLGXQ Find messages from WACC here: https://wacconline.org/media If you would like to find out more about our church, visit us at our website: https://www.wacconline.org/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wacc.atx/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wacc.atx/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/WashingtonAvenueChristianChurch Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/washington-avenue-christian-church/id1502459358 Everything WACC: linktr.ee/wacc.atx

Patti Garibay of American Heritage Girls talks about how the organization come to be and how it helps girls grow in character and independence. Caleb Kaltenbach, author of “Messy Truth,” talks about how to love LGBTQ identified persons without compromising God's truth.

Patti Garibay of American Heritage Girls talks about how the organization come to be and how it helps girls grow in character and independence. Caleb Kaltenbach, author of “Messy Truth,” talks about how to love LGBTQ identified persons without compromising God's truth.

Caleb Kaltenbach, author of "Messy Truth: How to Foster Community Without Sacrificing Conviction," reveals his incredible personal story, his passion for helping others show empathy — and his passion for truth. Kaltenbach, who was raised by gay parents, once wanted to disprove the Bible. He found himself saying, "I never, ever want to be a Christian."  Then, he encountered Jesus, changed his views on marriage and is now on a mission to help people discover truth and God's love.

*Originally aired August 10, 2021* Pastor, author and executive director of the Messy Grace Group , Caleb Kaltenbach, talks about his latest book “Messy Truth: How to Foster Community Without Sacrificing Conviction“. He beautifully and biblically navigates the complicated conversation around the church and LGBTQ.

Caleb Kaltenbach (author of Messy Grace, and Messy Truth) shares on how the church can build better relationships with people in the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in split home with parents who both identified as gay and lesbian, Caleb brings unique perspective and understanding on how all people can pursue righteousness together. Instagram: @calebwilds Website: www.calebkaltenbach.com

Parents, get ready for an incredible two-day Biblical worldview training conference - PCA's Biblical Worldview Institute (BWi) will be Tuesday and Wednesday, November 9th and 10th. This year's theme is Civility and the line-up of speakers and topics is fantastic - we would love to see you for any or all of the sessions! On Tuesday, students will hear from Alexandra Hudson, author of Against Politeness, a soon-to-be-released book on why “civility” is more important than “politeness” in our current cultural climate. There will also be a panel discussion with college presidents Dr. Adam Wright (DBU) and Dr. Blake Thompson (Mississippi College) along with Alliance Defending Freedom attorney and former PCA parent Ryan Bangert discussing the “cancel culture” on the college campus and how as Christians we need to learn to engage and not shy away from the opportunity to live boldly for Christ while in college. The final session for Tuesday morning will feature Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, president of the Christian Thinkers Society and author of a new book titled Unleashing Peace: Experiencing God's Shalom in Your Pursuit of Happiness.  On Wednesday morning, students will get to hear from Darrell Harrison with Just Thinking Ministries as well as Caleb Kaltenbach, author of Messy Truth: How to Foster Community without Sacrificing Conviction - incredible book, convicting and encouraging at the same time! And Wednesday's session will end with a crowd favorite - Christian illusionist Jim Munroe - check out his I Am Second testimony! To learn more about the BWi event and to register for attendance, check out the PCA website HERE. To check out some of our incredible past BWi conferences and speakers, click HERE.

“Empathy is acknowledging someone's reality. It's the same as acceptance. There is a difference between acceptance and agreement. We are commanded by God to accept everyone, but we are not commanded to approve of their opinions or political views we are called to love them.” “A Distorted View of God leads to a Distorted way of life” Tune in to today's episode “Messy Truth” with Caleb Kaltenbach. Caleb is the founder of The Messy Grace Group where he helps churches love and foster community with LGBTQ individuals without sacrificing theological convictions. He's the author of Messy Truth, God of Tomorrow, and Messy Grace (where he discusses being raised in the LGBTQ community, following Jesus, and how loving others doesn't require shifting beliefs). In this episode we discuss: How truth can be messy! The spiritual impact on children raised by LGTBQ parents Creating an environment in The Church that welcomes all people without incompatible with church doctrine. Why the LGTBQ community believes Christians hate them. Having authentic relationships with people who are not like us. LINKS: www.calebkaltenbach.comMessy Truth: https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Truth-Community-Sacrificing-Conviction/dp/0525654275/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1635440062&sr=8-1 Streams of Wholeness: www.streamsofwholeness.com Josh Hawk: www.joshhawk.com Road to Wholeness TV Show: www.awkngtv.com See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Plugged In's Adam Holz reviews "Show Me the Father," "Eyes of Tammy Faye," and "Cry Macho."  He also looks at Facebook's internal memos admitting that Instagram would be toxic to teen girls.  Caleb Kaltenbach, author of "Messy Truth," talks about how do love LGBTQ identified persons without compromising God's truth.

Plugged In's Adam Holz reviews "Show Me the Father," "Eyes of Tammy Faye," and "Cry Macho."  He also looks at Facebook's internal memos admitting that Instagram would be toxic to teen girls.  Caleb Kaltenbach, author of "Messy Truth," talks about how do love LGBTQ identified persons without compromising God's truth.

In this episode, Dr. Darrell Bock and Caleb Kaltenbach talk about engaging with people in the…

In this episode, Dr. Darrell Bock and Caleb Kaltenbach talk about engaging with people in the LGBTQ community, focusing on how to foster a loving community while staying true to your biblical convictions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support The Becket Cook Show on Patreon!In today's episode, Becket interviews Caleb Kaltenbach about his new book, "Messy Truth: How to Foster Community Without Sacrificing Conviction." We learn how to best engage with the LGBTQ community.Caleb's book "Messy Truth"Caleb's websiteThe Becket Cook Show Ep. 38WATCH THIS EPISODE OF THE BECKET COOK SHOW ON YouTubeWANT TO DONATE TO BECKET'S MINISTRY?PayPalVenmo: @Becket-CookWANT MORE?Buy Becket Cook's book about his dramatic conversion from gay atheist to born-again Christian: "A Change of Affection: A Gay Man's Incredible Story of Redemption" HERESTAY CONNECTED:TwitterInstagramFacebookwww.becketcook.comSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/thebecketcookshow)

Pastor, author and executive director of the Messy Grace Group , Caleb Kaltenbach, talks about his latest book "Messy Truth: How to Foster Community Without Sacrificing Conviction". He beautifully and biblically navigates the the complicated conversation around the church and LGBTQ.

We're so glad you're here! This week we hear a message on forgiveness from Caleb Kaltenbach. Join us as we dive into the story of Joseph. NEW HERE? GET CONNECTED | https://prescottchristianchurch.aware3.net/form/sDDnpLNpx MORE INFO |...

Week 6 of the "Front Lines" Series, featuring Caleb Kaltenbach.

Caleb Kaltenbach is a pastor and founder of The Messy Grace Group. Sometimes, grace gets messy... Caleb Kaltenbach was raised by LGBTQ parents, marched in gay pride parades as a youngster, and experienced firsthand the hatred and bitterness of some Christians toward his family. But then Caleb surprised everyone, including himself, by becoming a Christian…and a pastor. Very few issues in Christianity are as divisive as the acceptance of the LGBT community in the church. As a pastor and as a person with beloved family members living a gay lifestyle, Caleb had to face this issue with courage and grace. Messy Grace shows us that Jesus's command to “love your neighbor as yourself” doesn't have an exception clause for a gay “neighbor”—or for that matter, any other “neighbor” we might find it hard to relate to. Jesus was able to love these people and yet still hold on to his beliefs. So can you. Even when it's messy.

Click Here to Listen to the other parts in the seriesYour Home is an Embassy (Part 1) - On Mission, Your Assignment as a CoupleYour Home is an Embassy (Part 2) - World Avoiders or World Changers?Your Home is an Embassy (Part 3) - My Home, God's EmbassyYour Home is an Embassy (Part 4) - A Christian's MissionYour Home is an Embassy (Part 5) - A Home For HospitalityFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. My Home, God's Embassy Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Your Home Is an Embassy (Day 3 of 5)Air date:                     August 24, 2016  Bob: If you are a citizen of your homeland, it's easy to forget that the Bible describes you differently. The Bible says you're a stranger and an alien. Here's Barbara Rainey.Barbara: For the most part, we've forgotten that this isn't our home. It is a little bit of a paradox to live in this land, and yet to be mindful that this isn't our home. I don't think we think about that enough. I think our roots have gone down too deep into the soil of this land, and we've forgotten that we really belong to another place, another time, and another King—that's whom we serve.Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 24th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. If this world is not our home / if we're just passing through, how does that affect how we ought to live? We're going to spend time thinking about that today with Barbara Rainey. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  Dennis: Bob, what's your favorite candy bar? [Laughter] Bob: Really? This is how you want to start? Dennis: I want to start because we were talking about this before we came on the air. You asked Barbara—  Bob: She brought what looks—it looks—can we admit it? It looks like a candy bar. Barbara: It does look like a candy bar. Bob: She brought what looks like a candy bar. Dennis: But it's a protein bar. Bob: It's a protein bar. Dennis: It's—you know, it is cardboard covered with some kind of nutrient. [Laughter] I don't know what it is. Bob: No; no! It's a candy bar with protein added. [Laughter] That's what it is. Barbara: That's probably right! Bob: That's exactly what it is. Dennis: But you asked her something I didn't know the answer to. You asked her: “What was her favorite candy bar?” I've been married to her for coming up on 44 years, and I don't know what her favorite candy bar is. I think the reason is—I don't think I've seen her eat any. [Laughter] Bob: You know, I asked, “If I were going down to the vending machine to get a candy bar, which one would you want?” You had to stop and think— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —because it's been a while. 2:00 Barbara: It's been a long time. In fact, I didn't have an answer; so you rattled off about five or six names. I went: “Oh, yes! I used to like Milky Way®.” Bob: And then Reese's® came up; and you were like: “Oh, yes! I like those.” Barbara: Yes; I could eat a Reese's. Bob: So you still will indulge occasionally. Barbara: I still have a sweet tooth. Bob: Alright. Dennis: So, yours, Bob? Bob: Mine would be the 72 percent dark chocolate made by the Izard Chocolate Company in downtown Little Rock. Barbara: Oh, my goodness! Bob: Yes! I want the pure bar. Barbara: Okay; yes. It's very good. Bob: My friend Nathaniel Izard makes them. Dennis: I didn't ask what you'd like to have intravenously. [Laughter] Bob: Mary Ann brings them home. He also has a wonderful chocolate-covered caramel that's very good. I like the gourmet. If I'm going—  Barbara: That sounds really yummy. Bob: Now, see? All of a sudden here— Barbara: Yes; that sounds really yummy. Dennis: Yes, it does. I like Toblerone, which is made in [Switzerland]. Bob: Those are very nice. Dennis: That's pretty good.  Let's just do a little straw poll with our listeners and find out what their favorite candy bar is. Go online to FamilyLifeToday.com— Bob: We've got the quiz up there. Dennis: We've got the quiz, but it would be fun to see what wins.  3:00 The reason we were doing that—we were talking about going overseas/international. Barbara talked about how she nearly starved to death on a Josh McDowell mission trip to Russia. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: You said that the food you were fed every day—a little boxed lunch—what was in it? Barbara: Well, we were on the buses, day after day, going to visit orphanages and different places. It was a wonderful, wonderful trip; but the hotel that we stayed in always packed us a little sack lunch to take on the bus. The lunch consisted of a Subway-type sandwich, a very paper-thin slice of meat that you could read through, a very thin—one very thin—tomato, and a very thin piece of lettuce. There was virtually no nutrition in it. It was really thin! [Laughter] Bob: But they gave you a candy bar! Barbara: They gave us a candy bar called the Lion Bar. It was a very good candy bar. We all ate our candy bar every day for lunch. Dennis: Well, when you're starving to death, anything will taste good! Barbara: That's how we got full. [Laughter] Bob: It does taste better. 4:00 I'm sure listeners wonder exactly what the theme of today's program is. Barbara: It's candy! [Laughter] Bob: I have to admit—when you told me you wanted to talk about diplomatic relations with Barbara in the middle of the presidential election cycle, I thought, “This should be interesting.” Dennis: Diplomatic relations with Barbara. Now, there are a lot of ways to take that. [Laughter] Bob: That's true; that's true. Dennis: You didn't even think about that! [Laughter] Bob: Let me—you wanted to talk with Barbara about the issue of diplomatic relations. How's that? Dennis: That is more accurate. We've been talking about—just as a couple—how Paul exhorts us, over in the book of 2 Corinthians, Chapter 5—he exhorts us to be ambassadors for Christ. Barbara got me off on this. It's really caused me to start thinking differently about my identity / who I am on a daily basis. It wasn't that I didn't think about this before, but she saw a video of a person in a foreign country that kind of prompted this with her.  5:00 Bob, I think our listeners are going to be encouraged by what we talk about here. Bob: What was the video you saw? Barbara: Well, I found a video, maybe five-minutes long / maybe, six-minutes long, about this individual who lived in an Eastern European country, described as a very atheistic country. This individual had a plaque on the outside of the entrance to their home—the plaque said, “Embassy of the King of Heaven.” The story goes about how this person lived in this Communist country and has lived through multiple regime changes. Yet, one constant has remained the same; that is that the country in which this person lives is not really his home. This person really belongs to the kingdom of heaven. Bob: So the home that this person lives in—we've been calling it “this person” because we've been asked not to talk about the name, or the identity, or even the gender of the person. Barbara: Correct; correct. 6:00 Bob: Although, if our listeners want to go see the video, we've got a link to it on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. Barbara: That's correct. Bob: We'll call him a man. This man lives in a home that, from his perspective—that is different soil than the country—that when he walks out of his front door, he walks into a different place. Barbara: —into a foreign country because he believes that his home belongs to the kingdom of heaven. He even says on the video: “My home represents the King that I serve; and so I want my home to reflect the King. I have things on my wall / the way I conduct myself all represents my King.” The video shows him going to the market—buying things / bringing things back—so that he can entertain guests. Some of them have called for an appointment to visit with him. He considers himself an ambassador—these people have called and want to come and talk. There are others who see the sign on his front door / next to his front door and just knock.  7:00 He says the Holy Spirit brings these people. People come and want to talk about troubles in their lives; or things that they're going through; or they want to know, “Who is this King of heaven that you serve and that you belong to?” Bob: So you saw the video, and it just got you thinking differently about your own life? Barbara: Well, I saw the video; and it just was so powerful to watch this person and to hear this person, who is an elderly person, who has lived almost 80 years of life. I was just inspired by the story because I realized that's true for all of us, who are believers in Christ: “I am an ambassador.” All three of us are ambassadors. Our children are ambassadors.  That means the home that I live in / the home that we live in should be an embassy of the King. Therefore: “How can I”--especially me, as a woman—“How can I make my home—which I'm always conscious of and aware of / I'm always trying to improve our home—  8:00 —how do I make our home represent the King / the King that I belong to?”—because my home is not really the property that we live on / my home is really in heaven. We're here temporarily, and God has us here about His plan and about His purposes. So: “How can I be more connected with what He wants me to do? And how can my home be more of a representative of Him, the King?” Dennis: And I think this conversation, Bob, has never been more relevant for our country. I'm hearing a ton of fear. There are all of these culture wars that are taking place in our country right now. I think followers of Christ have to go back and go: “How do I live in the midst of this?! How am I supposed to behave? Who am I?” You know, Bob, we interviewed a pastor from Simi Valley, California, who wrote a book called Messy Grace. His name is Caleb Kaltenbach, and it's going to be aired later on in September.  9:00 He made a statement in the interview—it really hit me. I've been chewing on this all summer—he said: “Christians today have to realize we are no longer the home team. We are the visiting team.” So, if we're the visiting team, then we need to figure out: “How do you behave on a visitor's court? And how do you relate to people around these messy issues and do so in a way that's winsome / that leaves the aroma of Christ? And—this is very important for you, parents / listen up!—how do you train your kids to do this at school?— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —“and as they go to the university?—and as they grow up to establish their own homes?”  I'm telling you—it is game time! And we're on the visitors' court. We better do this job well because I think, right now, the winds of the culture have really completely shifted. We're no longer flowing with the winds—we're going against the winds / going against the tide— 10:00 —we're on the visitors' court—however you wish to say it. We need to know who we are; that is, ambassadors for Christ. We need to know why we're here. We are here to represent Him. We need to be on mission, and we need to be training our kids to be on mission as well. That's why this conversation with Barbara is so important—to be thinking of our home as an embassy in a foreign land. Bob: Barbara, you may know the old song: “This world is not my home. I'm just a passin' through,” that people used to sing in church. It's really a picture of where we are. We are—I think it was Peter who said—“strangers and aliens”— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Yes. Bob: —in this world. Dennis: Right. Barbara: Yes. Bob: This is not our homeland; and yet, we are citizens of the United States—we are bound by the laws / we need to be good citizens as we live in this country—but there's a higher allegiance; right? Barbara: There is a higher allegiance. I think, for the most part, we've forgotten that this isn't our home.  11:00 It is a little bit of a paradox to live in this land and yet to be mindful that this isn't our home. But it's a good reminder. I think that would be a great hymn for us to start singing in church again because I don't think we think about that enough. I think our roots have gone down too deep into the soil of this land; and we've forgotten that we really belong to another place, another time, and another King—and that's whom we serve. Dennis: Yes; and if our country is kind of unstable—and there's a lot of fear in the country, and your roots are in that soil—it is going to reveal where you truly think your homeland is. I think, again: “Are you first and foremost an American, or are you first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ?—a child of the King and, therefore, an ambassador of the King of kings and the Lord of lords.” Bob: Let's not assume that everybody knows exactly what an embassy is. I mean, we've heard that word. I've been to Washington, DC, and been down Embassy Row— Barbara: Embassy Row; yes. Bob: —which is a series of houses / nice houses— Barbara: Yes. 12:00 Bob: —with different signs out front of those houses from different nations. Explain what an embassy is. Barbara: One of the things that you would find interesting—anybody who visits an embassy / if you went down Embassy Row—the houses are all slightly different / they're not the same. They have a sign outside that's different. Usually, there's a flag representing that country; but if you walk in the front door of that embassy, you're going to be greeted with sights, and sounds, and probably even smells from that home country.  If you went into the American Embassy in Africa—in some African nation—or the American Embassy in Beijing, it would not look like China when you walked in the door / it would not look like Uganda when you walked in the door. When you walk in the door of the American Embassy, you see framed pictures of our national heroes—George Washington and Abraham Lincoln would be on the wall. You would see the American flag. The embassies have kitchens. You would probably smell American food cooking. There would be air-conditioning / carpeting—it would feel like being home in America.  13:00 The embassy is a piece of that country on foreign soil. For instance, the soil that the American Embassy sits on—in whatever country we have an embassy—that soil literally belongs to the United States. Bob: The people on that soil are governed by US law. Barbara: Correct. Bob: If they commit a crime, it's adjudicated in US courts.  Barbara: That's correct. Bob: It's just like they're in a part of America. Barbara: Right. Bob: It just happens to be a square—half mile or whatever it is—in China. Barbara: Yes. For instance, if you're in another country—we were traveling, say, in China—and we had some kind of problem / some kind of trouble—we, because we're American citizens, would go to the American Embassy for help. The staff of the American Embassy is there to help American citizens, who are traveling, or working, or serving in that country.  14:00 They're also there to engage with local citizens, too, because there are people who come to the American Embassy to get a visa to travel to the United States. They serve lots of different purposes. Dennis: You know, one thing that you all mentioned—as you're going down Embassy Row, you see these flags. As you get closer to the embassy, there are these plaques / the signage on the front door or near the front door of the embassy that identifies the building as being an American embassy.  You've actually created a plaque that could be screwed into the wall in the front of the home, much like this person we talked about has in front of their home. Barbara: Yes; yes. Well, after watching this video, and seeing that this person had a plaque on the outside of their home, I thought: “I want a plaque on the outside of my house. I want the UPS guy, or the neighbor who comes over, or someone who just drives by to see that: “In this house, we belong to the King of heaven. We belong to another country.”  15:00 I decided I wanted one of those plaques. I didn't know where to get one; so we had one made. [Laughter] Dennis: And it's got a crown—it's got a crown. Barbara: Yes. It says, “Embassy of the King” and it has a crown on it because we belong to the King. It is metal, and it can be permanently installed on the exterior of your house if you want to do that.  Bob: Has this been permanently installed on the exterior of your house? Barbara: Not yet, because I haven't had it long enough. [Laughter] Dennis: I can promise you— Barbara: But it will be! Dennis: —as the handyman of the house, it will! I can imagine coming home—that as I come home / you come home from work—as we go in our front door, we might just reach out and touch that. You know, when you see something that's metal like this, if it's in a museum, people touch it. You can see it's kind of worn down a bit after hundreds/ thousands of people have touched it. This is not brass; this is stainless steel.  16:00 But I think just to touch it—much like a player going out of the locker room—I think it would be good for us just to maybe remind our children and us, as we leave home / as we come back home: “This is an embassy of the King, and I am an ambassador.” Barbara: And not only that—I just imagine what that would be like because, when we all leave home, as you were talking earlier, we're going into enemy territory. I think we forget—when we go out on a day-to-day basis—that we're on the business of the King. I think we are so prone to get caught up in my “to do” list, or the things I've got to check off, or all the errands I have to run, or whatever it might be that we forget that we have been called to live for the King. So, when we leave our front door every day, or get in our car to go to school, or get on the bus, or whatever, I think it's very easy to forget that “I've been called today to live for the King and for His business and not my own.” Bob: You mentioned that you had this stainless steel plaque made for your home. We should mention you had a few extra made— Barbara: Yes; a few extra. [Laughter] 17:00 Bob: —so we could offer these to listeners who might want one. In addition to the plaques, you've had banners and signage that you've printed.  Barbara: Yes, we made two other versions. We made the one that can be permanently mounted on the outside of your home; but for people—who live in apartments, or you may be in a rental house, or you don't know if you're going to be where you are for very long—you might want something that would be easier to take with you. We have a banner, and we also have a framed plaque—both of which say something about this being an embassy. Bob: And I'll just say that our listeners can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to see what you've created / what's available because they may want to put one of these on their front door, on the inside of the home, or hang the banner somewhere— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —just to serve as the reminder that you've talked about Dennis—that: “This is whom I serve. This is where I'm from. I'm here on assignment.” Dennis: I was thinking, as we were talking here, Bob—I'll ask you: “What Old Testament passage does this signage and having these banners hanging—what does this remind you of?” 18:00 Bob: Okay; so it's the last chapter of Joshua; right?—Joshua 24:15? Dennis: Well, I'm not sure there is the right answer. Bob: But that's the one you had open in your Bible; right? [Laughter] Dennis: It's not; it's not. Bob: Really?! Barbara: You saw the verse! Bob: Oh, I thought for sure you were going straight to Joshua 24:15! Dennis: No, that's not it. That's “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Bob: That's what I figured you were going for; yes. Dennis: Barbara? Barbara: No; I don't know for sure what you're thinking about. Dennis: Wife of my youth! Barbara: I know—gosh! What did I miss? Dennis: Wife of my youth! [Laughter] Bob: Deuteronomy 6—he's thinking the doorposts; right? Dennis: Oh, yes; I am! Barbara: Oh; okay!  Dennis: I was going, “Of all people to forget this!” That's one of your charter verses!  Barbara: Well, it is; I guess I was just thinking, “Where do they talk about a banner?” I was thinking, “Banner—where does it talk about a banner?” Bob: Well, it's in Song of Solomon 2, but I don't think it applies! [Laughter] Barbara: I know! That's why I was a little confused. [Laughter] Dennis: Bob's in Song of Solomon—we're never going to recover this broadcast. Deuteronomy 6: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.  19:00 “And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children. You shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.” Then verse 8: “You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes; you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.” I think God, in establishing the nation of Israel, was trying to remind them—much like Tony Mitchell's [Christian Alliance for Orphans] dad: “Here's who you are. Now, don't forget: ‘I'm your God. You're My people. You're to represent Me.'” We're going to have some stuff hanging on the front of the house to signify that we're not just another family. We are a family that knows Yahweh, the King of kings / the Lord of lords. 20:00 And I think—again, just back to where we are today in our culture—I just think, in the midst of a lot of fear / in the midst of a lot of controversy, believers need to know who they are and whose they are. They need to be representing Him with excellence, and they need to be training their children to do the same. You've come up, also, with a little booklet that has got a number of devotionals to go through with your kids. Barbara: Yes; we've got four discussions, for lack of a better word, that you can do with your kids—a couple of stories to read and then some things to talk about that will help you communicate to your kids: “What does it mean to be an ambassador? What does it mean to represent Christ?” It just gives you an opportunity, as a family, to talk about: “How can we make our home be a better embassy? How can we better represent Christ?” I think they're good discussions for parents to have with their kids. Bob: Well, and the questions are available in a free e-book edition if folks are interested in having those conversations. I think they're good conversations to have. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and download the free e-booklet that's got the four discussions there for you.  21:00 And while you're on the website, check out the resources Barbara has designed so that you can remind yourself and declare to others that your home is an embassy of the King. There's the plaque / the banner—there is a canvas that's available. The discussion questions are available as a devotional booklet that you can order from us as well. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for all of the information about what's available. You can order from us online. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or you'd like to order by phone—1-800-FL-TODAY—that's 1-800-358-6329 / 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, I'm just curious how many of you listening think anniversaries are a big deal. If you listen to FamilyLife Today, you know we think anniversaries are a big deal.  22:00 This year, we've been sharing some of our listeners' special anniversaries. Today, we've got two listeners we would like to wish a “Happy anniversary!” to: Eric and Maureen Sipperley, who live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Today is their 31st anniversary. “Congratulations!” to the Sipperleys. Jim and Kris Stanek—who live in Renton, Washington—today is their 14th wedding anniversary. They listen to FamilyLife Today on KGNW in Seattle. We just want to say to both the Sipperleys and the Staneks: “Happy anniversary! I hope you have a great celebration today!” Just know—every year is a milestone. Every year is a marker of faithfulness and covenant-keeping love. That's a big deal in this culture. Our goal, here at FamilyLife, is that more couples would celebrate more anniversaries, year after year, and that they'd be even better every year.  23:00 We want to provide the kind of practical biblical help and hope that you need, as a couple, so that your marriage and your family can be all that God intends for it to be.  All of the work that we do here is made possible because of the generosity of folks, like you, who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We are hoping this month to catch up. We're a little behind where we were at this time last year in terms of the number of listeners who have gotten in touch with us to make a donation. We're asking those of you, who have been listening regularly this year but who just haven't gone online or called and made a donation, “Would you consider doing that today?” You can do it online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY,”—donate over the phone. Or you can mail a donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 By the way, if your donation is $100 or more, feel free to request the three-set Bible study for couples that we put together—our Art of Marriage Connect Studies. These are designed for small group studies or for a husband and wife to do together. These three Bible studies are our thank-you gift to you, thanking you for your generous support of this ministry. And be sure to be back with us again tomorrow. Barbara Rainey will be here again. We'll continue our conversation about how we can live as ambassadors for Christ in this culture. I hope you can be here with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving My Gay Parents Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                            From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: Caleb Kaltenbach's parents divorced when he was young. His mom came out as a lesbian; his dad came out as a gay man. That gave Caleb a unique perspective on life.  Caleb: I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.”  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, July 2nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we'd all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls “messy grace.” Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are— Dennis: No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because— Bob: It's self-evident; isn't it? Dennis: Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You're going to get some—some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it's about messy people. It's about imperfect people / imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him.  Bob: Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says—  2:00 —he says, “It's okay not to be okay; it's just not okay to stay there.” [Laughter] That's what the story of redemption's all about! Dennis: Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know—as a listener, I don't know what you're doing; but set it aside—because what you're going to hear is going to be riveting—I am confident of that. He has written a book called Messy Grace, and it is subtitled: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. Now, that is a mouthful! Bob: Yes. Dennis: We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast. Caleb: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Dennis: Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others—wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories; but I'm not sure I've heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background. 3:00 Caleb: I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City—actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there—taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships.  My mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera—she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand—he had several different relationships. He never had one relationship that lasted. I actually—I didn't even know about my dad until I got to be college-age—maybe just graduated from college—but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don't know. But I was raised by three gay parents.  Bob: This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents “out” about their sexual preference? Caleb: My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said—they did go to Kansas City.  4:00 They were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” If that wasn't offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades. Dennis: Oh!  Bob: Oh! Caleb: I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.”   That stuck with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that.  5:00 I saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom's friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man—his family was Christian. They already didn't accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they really didn't want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time. Dennis: Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty— Caleb: Right. Dennis: —pretty amazing.  Caleb: Yes; and the most disturbing thing was—obviously, it's disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you've ever seen that—but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time. Dennis: They were not next to his bed— Caleb: No. Dennis: —holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all. Caleb: No; and they wouldn't even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, “Hey, Christians hate gay people.” 6:00 Bob: So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you're going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms.  Caleb: Oh, I didn't tell anybody that I had two moms—I didn't tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn't tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn't think there was anything wrong about that relationship—at the same time, I knew that I was different. I did not want to get made fun of. Bob: So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it? Caleb: And I would go back and forth; absolutely. Dennis: Was it 50-50? Caleb: No; I spent most of the time with my dad. Dennis: I've been looking forward to talking with you; because I'm seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I'm just wondering: “What's happening in the life of that child? What's that child thinking/feeling?” What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling? Caleb: I remember Vera, my mother's partner.  7:00 We did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man—representative of that.  If I had time to take you through her past / my mom and dad's past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don't think that's the right response, but I understand how that could be a response. This is where I think parenting is so incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don't deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do.  But also, our kids—and I'm very mindful of this with my own kids— 8:00 —are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life—because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother.  We want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult / that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don't see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive. Dennis: So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up—obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Were you ashamed that you had two mommies? Caleb: I wasn't ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I knew that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother's relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still mirrored the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the right image, it's always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense? 9:00 Dennis: Yes. Bob: Your dad, you said, was a bachelor.  Caleb: Yes. Bob: He's who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: “Hey, my family's different; I've got two moms.” You're starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at—I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old—whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual? Caleb: When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn't see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent—there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously. Bob: But when you grow up in that situation and that's your normal, a lot of young people just think: “This is normal.  10:00 “It may not be the same as everybody else's, but my situation is not a wrong situation.” Caleb: Yes; but the thing is that there's no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living—sanctification—and how we should live our lives in every aspect / in every domain of our life. Dennis: And you didn't have that. Caleb: No; I didn't have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture—culture is always changing, because people always change; because there's no focal point. When you follow Jesus, He's the focal point; He's the standard; He's by which you measure everything and make your decisions. Bob: Did you have any sexual ethic?—any personal sexual ethic? Caleb: No; I didn't. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn't hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a Modern Family-type mindset, I guess you would say. Bob: Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do— 11:00 —you looked at that and said: “That's their choice,” or “That's who they are. They're just being true to who they are.” Caleb: “That's good for them.”  I've never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, “Well, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.” Even as a young kid, I would say: “I've always liked girls. I'm sorry; I don't…” Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it—you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented. Dennis: Growing up in this home, where you didn't have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard—I was just wondering how you handled—you sure didn't have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren't confused, it doesn't sound like, at all. Caleb: No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you've got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I'll just give you an example—I don't write about this in the book—but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was An American Werewolf in London.  Bob: Wow. Caleb: Still scares me today, thinking about it.  12:00 But you think about that!—there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That's one of the things I realized about my childhood—that there were no boundaries.  There were boundaries with my parents, but they're very long-stretched. When I would step over one—usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age—the consequences were very swift. That's how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me.  I got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school—led by a high schooler for high schoolers. I thought: “This is perfect! I'm going to go, and I'm going to pretend to be a Christian. I'm going to be a ninja-Christian. I'm going to go in there…” Bob: [Laughter] A ninja-Christian? Caleb: A ninja-Christian. Dennis: Now, hold it! What's that? Caleb: Well, you know: “I'm going to go in there and I'm going—I'm going to pretend to talk the lingo. I'm going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,”—that was my plan.  I never owned a Bible.  13:00 I grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn't know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter] You've got to understand—I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life—like an evangelical, conservative Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall—I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, “Why are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?” I looked at my friend and I said: “Is this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?” [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter] Dennis: I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some—really, I can't imagine, from a descriptive standpoint—having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community.  14:00 What would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community?  I'm picturing you going to this Bible study—it's like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you'd had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing? Caleb: Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother's car was a purple RAV4. You've got to understand—she had bumper—she was very loud and proud—she had bumper stickers on there, like: “Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General” and stuff like that. I mean, “Graduate of Thelma & Louise Finishing School.” I mean, you'd spot it a mile away; you know? I remember, my mom didn't do anything to them.  15:00 She pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt humiliated. I remember thinking about that, and I remember— Dennis: How old were you as a boy? Caleb: I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment—I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, “Look at our persecution.” Hopefully, that's gone out of print.  I just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that. Bob: So when somebody comes to you and says, “Do you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so's house?”  16:00 You were thinking: “I want to come blow this thing up. I don't want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.” Caleb: I was ready for war; I was ready for war. Bob: And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter]  Caleb: I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn't know what would happen.  So we go down there, and we're all reading through 1 Corinthians. I'm in 1 Chronicles, and they're all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered—not a sheep though—a person. They said, “Well, Caleb, where are you?” I said, “Well, I'm in 1 Chronicles.” “Oh! You're in the Old Testament!” I said: “So, I guess there's a new one. There's updated 2.0!” or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I'm like, “I'm not going to let these people get me down.” Dennis: Did they know where you came from? Caleb: I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn't even know there was a New Testament, they were like: “Oh look! Somebody that's not a Christian right there.” 17:00 Bob: Wow. Caleb: Some of the attitudes changed and softened towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: “Is there a New Testament?”—you know, a girl said, “Yes, the New Testament” as if I was supposed to know that. “I'm sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,” you know? I didn't know. Bob: Right. Caleb: But I kept on going. It's funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms. Dennis: You'd actually had a young lady—prior to this Bible study; hadn't you?—who had given you what you thought was a love note? Caleb: [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she—you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn't. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: “Oh, really? A Jesus note?” I was hoping for: “Caleb, you're debonair. You're all this and more.”  18:00 You know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I'd think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she's probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl—writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was huge when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time. Bob: Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to—how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did? Caleb: I would say: “Number one, don't assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.”  Bob: Yes.  Caleb: I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don't make that, you know— Bob: —assumption. 19:00 Caleb: —assumption; exactly! Everybody's at a different spiritual level. The second thing that I would say is: “Don't automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: ‘Hey, we're going to go to 1 Corinthians,' ‘We're going to go to…Paul,'—this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they're new or not.”  “Don't assume that everybody's on the same page as you when it comes to politics,” because I wasn't whatsoever. I was raised by two extremely liberal parents. I was nowhere near, and they immediately brought up politics. They immediately started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You've got to understand—my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I'm like: “Okay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I'm lost. I don't even know that there's a New Testament. They're ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes.  20:00 “So far, it feels like the same thing, except I'm sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I'm sitting in the Trojan horse almost”; you know?—that's what it felt like in that moment. Dennis: Just listening to where you'd come from, I'm amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down—and His love and His grace. Caleb: It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent. Dennis: Yes.  Caleb: I mean, I learned——the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people—who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him—but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn't either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum. Dennis: Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery— 21:00 Caleb: Yes. Dennis: —and how the religious community didn't rescue her. They were ready to stone her. Caleb: No. Dennis: And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that's who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what real love looks like and what God's love for us is today. Bob: Yes; we've reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us—He is the revelation of the Father—but it says He's full of grace and truth. He's full of both—there's grace and there's truth. I think that's what we're having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: “How can we be full of truth?”  22:00 Well, you say it: “How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?”—that's the subtitle of the book you've written—called Messy Grace.  I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story—read the things you've learned along the way, and how you've coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don't think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach's book is called Messy Grace. We've got it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329—1-800-FL-TODAY—or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com. We want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to FamilyLife Today—  23:00 —and while we're glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in—thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don't know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you've heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support FamilyLife Today with a donation. During the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you're a regular listener—if programs like the one you've heard today are helpful for you and your family / if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community—would you join the FamilyLife® team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us.  24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we'll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that's an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Truth Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                            From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 2 of 3)   Bob: How ought we live, as followers of Jesus, in a culture that is moving away from a biblical foundation for life? Caleb Kaltenbach says Jesus demonstrated what life looks like, full of grace and truth. Caleb: I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?”  It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there's a tension between grace and truth. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 3rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 If you've found that life is getting harder to navigate, as a follower of Christ, we'll see if we can help with some directions today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, years ago, there was a lot of controversy around a children's book that had found its way into libraries. I think it was called Heather Has Two Mommies. It was a children's book designed to provide a picture of normalization for a child who might be growing up in a household where there were two mommies or two daddies, trying to present that as maybe a new normal. We have somebody with us today for whom that was the normal, growing up in a home with two mommies part of the time and with a bachelor dad the other part of the time. Dennis: Yes; and Caleb, I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and sharing your story.”  2:00 Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back. Caleb: It's great to be back. Dennis: He's written a book called Messy Grace: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. The reason I just appreciate you being on the show, talking about this, is I think there are a lot of people, like me, who may not have a lot of gay friends; or if we do, we don't know it. We need coaching / we need understanding. We need someone to take us near and begin the journey for us. I feel like your book did that for me. I really liked being able to peer into your family, where you were raised by two moms and your dad, who later came out as a homosexual as well. You were raised in the midst of no faith / no Christian worldview. I think we're clueless! 3:00 Really, the Christian community's not really wise about who our audience is, and where they are, and where they aren't. Caleb: No; absolutely. I think that we have come to a point in our nation where we have to realize that we are the away team. We are not the home team anymore. We realize that more than ever at our church. We firmly believe in the inerrancy of Scripture / we believe in God's sovereignty—we believe in all these things—but we're all very intentional in being missionaries in our context / missionaries in Southern California and understanding, as we talked about earlier, that not everybody is at the same point in the spiritual journey.  We just surveyed our church three weeks ago and found out that 42 percent of our attendants, on any given Sunday, is unchurched—meaning that we're the first church they've been to or they haven't been since they were a kid—because we're so intentional about going after the lost sheep that Jesus talks about in Luke 15:1-7. But we do that without compromising the gospel and the message; because we have to learn where we are, and we have to understand—  4:00 —I think, specifically with this issue, or any other issue that we're dealing with—that there's a huge tension between grace and truth.  I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?”  It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there is a tension between grace and truth. Bob: You've already shared with us that your impression of Christians, growing up, was that they were bigoted/hateful. When you were with your mom, Christians would mock, and would shout, and would be hateful toward your mom.  5:00 Less so with your dad, because he wasn't out of the closet at this point; but your dominant thought was, “Christians are just not worth much.” You wound up at a Bible study in high school, and you went into that Bible study with the intent of wanting to undermine everything that was being taught there. Over time, something shifted in your heart and your thinking. Caleb: Yes; because I saw that Jesus was not representative of how people on the street corners were acting. I think today we would say Jesus is not representative of how some Christians act on Facebook®, social media, or Twitter®, Snapchat, Periscope, or whatever—that Jesus is not reflective of that. When I think about the people who are on the street corners, I think to myself, “What about what Paul said in Romans 2:4, when he says, ‘Don't you know that it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance?' What about what Paul said in Romans 12:18: ‘Live at peace with everyone'?” That doesn't mean that we agree with everybody, but that means that we're not going to belittle people.  6:00 What about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48?—you know: “…love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you”—and by the way—“if you only love those who love you, what reward are you going to get?”  I look at the people on the street corners, and really, in my life too—for me, messy grace is ultra-legalistic, fundamentalist Christians. You know, that's my version of messy grace that I have to love and be mindful about. Am I exemplifying what Paul says in Romans 2 and 12? Am I exemplifying what Jesus says: “If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get?” Dennis: I'm glad I had a man in my life who called me to love / he called me to truth too; but he said: “The preeminence of love—it is the banner of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Yes; we do stand for the truth.” I'll tell you why that was important in my life, Caleb. You can comment on this, because you've undoubtedly run into quite a few guys like me.  I think I, like a lot of other Christians, have a high need to be right. I don't think we have a high need to make sure we're loving.  7:00 That, for me, has helped me move from pressing the point of the gospel—which is the truth / it is right—but it's pressed me back to going, “How do I show love to other people who are broken?” We're all broken—not just them—I am too.  I think, for the most part, we in the Christian community really don't know how to love people who aren't like us, and who don't love us, and who don't think like us and believe like us. Caleb: I think the reason is that it is much easier to make a point / it is much harder to love somebody. When you make a point, you can be right. The woman caught in adultery in John, Chapter 8—and the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, who placed her before Jesus after humiliating her, they did not care about her life—restoring her/reconciliation. They were willing for her to die for them to be right. In other words, they believed that their theological conviction was a catalyst to allow them to mistreat other people.  8:00 Our theological convictions must never be catalysts to mistreat others. If anything, our theology should drive us to love people and treat them well.  I think about Jesus, and here's what Jesus did—here's what Jesus did—Jesus called the disciples into a discipleship relationship before they even believed He was the Son of God. I'm willing to bet—I don't know, but I'm willing to bet—that Matthew was not a good synagogue-going boy, in Matthew 9; and yet Jesus still looked at him, despite all that, and said: “Hey, you're coming with Me. Follow Me. I want you to be a part of what I'm doing.” Jesus regularly spent time with people, and here's where I think He models the difference between acceptance and approval. Jesus loved people where they were / Jesus loved them for who they were, but Jesus was not content to leave them where they were. He said, “God has something greater embedded in you that only His sovereignty can bring out.” I think about that and I think to myself: “We need to do the same thing.  9:00 “We have to love people where they're at.” That doesn't mean we approve of every life choice that somebody makes. Dennis: Right; right. Bob: You began to get a picture of who the real Jesus was as you were going to this Bible study in high school; but it had to dawn on you pretty quickly that, if this was true and if you were going to buy into this idea that the Jesus presented in the Bible is who He says He is—that He's God / that Christianity is true—that's going to put you at odds with your mom, with your dad, with your mom's partner. This is going to turn your whole world upside down. Caleb: Absolutely. I spent so much time studying what the Bible had to say about marriage relationships, gender, sexuality, intimacy—everything. I came to this conclusion, the one that I still hold today, that God designed sexual intimacy for the expression in marriage between one man and one woman—I believe that today. I believe anything outside of that is a sin.  10:00 That it is between a man and a woman in marriage—that's what God designed intimacy for.  Now, I also believe, to reinforce what I said earlier, that our biblical beliefs should not allow us to berate anyone. Our biblical beliefs should build us up to the point, where we are willing to love people; because the more that we love God, He gives us margin to love people who seem to be unlovable to us. I think the real mark of Christian maturity is: “How well can you love those whom you disagree with, don't like / don't like you, are difficult, or are just plain different than you are?” Bob: I'm trying to imagine you coming to this conclusion / this understanding of what the Bible has to say about gender, and marriage, and sexuality, and going back to your mom and having the conversation—or to your dad—and saying, “You know, I've come to believe something different.” Caleb: Imagine how a young teenager, who is gay or same-sex attracted, feels when they come out to their conservative Christian parents.  11:00 I was a 16-year-old teenager coming out as a Christian to my three gay parents. You would expect love and tolerance; because that's what my mother, and her partner, and my dad, in his own way, always preached. But I got the opposite—they kicked me out.  I went back, eventually, kind of slowly built up that relationship. Again, I realized that the more I loved God, the more margin He gave me to love people who were difficult in my life—I had to forgive. Bob: That love was tested; because as you attended the Bible study, you decided to go to church. You went to your dad's church, and that turned out to be a bit of a surprise to you as well. Caleb: Yes; I went to my dad's church and—you know, I'd gone off and on. They really didn't teach the Bible.  Then I got invited by a friend of mine, who was a Christian, and his dad was a pastor at a church. I got invited to go to his church. I went, and I found Jesus was preached and talked about much differently.  12:00 I found a group of individuals who firmly believed what Jesus said and what Scripture claimed, but also believed that that should never compromise our love for other people. We can't compromise conviction or love whatsoever. I remember being in this group and seeing them and thinking to myself, “This is something I could get onboard with.” God just began to develop in me this passion to be able to tell people about the Jesus I discovered. Bob: I want you to take me, if you can / if you remember it, to the first conversation you had with your mom or with your dad, where you said, “I've started to change my thinking.” Caleb: My dad told me that I had spit in the eyes of God, because he had me baptized Episcopalian/Anglican when I was a kid/baby. I remember, when I told him, he was so reactionary and angry. I didn't understand why then. I know now—because he was in the closet, and he was hiding it.  13:00 When I told my mom, on the other hand—I mean, my mom—I love her to death; but drama, drama, drama. My mom—we were driving from Concordia, Missouri—that's where my parents would meet / in Concordia, Missouri, at McDonald's® in between Columbia and Kansas City—my dad dropped me off and looked at my mom and said: “Well, good luck, Mary Lou. You're going to love this.”  I got in and I told my mom. She started crying—just crying, crying, crying. My mom, when we got home, went in; and I stayed in the car, because I didn't want to go in yet. I waited about 15 minutes, and she told Vera by then. As I said, Vera didn't get along with me / I didn't get along with her. She was a PhD psychologist, who had a very liberal view, not only on psychology but on everything. I sat down; and I remember she asked me, “So you're a Christian now, Caleb?” I said, “Yes.”  14:00 It was just very contentious—again, to the point where my mom said, “Hey, you're not going to come back for a while,”—basically kicked me out. My dad had told me the same thing at his house, and it was very difficult. Bob: So you called friends and said, “Can I crash at your house?” Caleb: Yes! Dennis: You were 16? Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Not long after that, someone invited you to a Youth for Christ conference? Caleb: Youth for Christ, also known as CIY, Christ in Youth. It was a great conference, but I had never been to a Christian conference. It was so great being with other high schoolers, who were my own age, and getting to know them.  I remember, again, one morning, I woke up and I just couldn't imagine myself doing anything else other than telling other people about this Jesus whom I had learned about. I mean, I figured I had lived 16 years of my life away from Jesus / I want to spend the rest of my life telling other people about Jesus and saying, again: “He's not like the people on the street corners!”  A week to the day that I was baptized, I said, “I want to give my life to full-time Christian vocational ministry.” Bob: A week after you were baptized? Caleb: Yes. 15:00 Bob: Okay; there are folks, who are listening, who are going: “Well, there's a pattern here. I mean, this guy grows up and he has two moms. One of them doesn't like him and doesn't like men in general, and his dad's in the closet. He's just looking for a way out of the trauma that he's been in for 16 years. He's easy pickings for this kind of stuff.” Caleb: But it wasn't trauma for me. I didn't want people to know about my mom. Dennis: It was your normal. Caleb: It was my normal! Absolutely! I knew—it was different enough, where I didn't want to broadcast it in the school—but in no way, shape, or form was I walking around saying, “Woe is me.” I'll be honest—my mom and her friends were fun. They were fun people to be around! There were some things that I saw that I shouldn't have seen; but back in my day, when I would go to somebody's house for a house party with my mom, I would take my Atari®, or Commodore 64, or Nintendo® / original Nintendo Duck Hunt™, and I would go find a room.  16:00 I still saw things that were inappropriate, but I did not have this—at that point—this scarred idea of my life. It wasn't until after I saw Jesus, and how He set things up, and how He originally created things to be until Adam and Eve rebelled / until sin entered the world, that I realized, at that point: “This was not right. This is not how God designed—this is not God's best. You cannot have a reflection of Christ's relationship with the church in any relationship other than a heterosexual relationship.” I mean, I realized so many things. And if there's ever—listen, if there's ever anybody who wanted to disprove, you know, what the Bible said about sexuality, it was me!  I mean, even after I changed my view on sexuality, if somebody brought up a new idea, I would still look at it; because my relationship with my parents was damaged. Why would I go from an environment where I had absolute peace with my parents to now an environment where there was chaos? 17:00 Bob: Let me ask you about that; because in the last five years, there have been books published presenting an evangelical view that maybe we've misunderstood all the texts that you were reading in high school. They say it's possible to be gay and to believe the Bible and to love Jesus. You've seen those books. You've read those books; right? Caleb: Oh, absolutely. Here's what these books do—they have no exegetical or historical ground to stand on. They have to do fancy exegetical footwork / they have to do fancy footwork with a background narrative and the backgrounds of the New Testament, especially with Romans 1 and so on and so forth.  They have to do an argument of silence, where they say something like, “Hey, Jesus never said anything about same-sex relationships, so that makes it okay.” Well, there are a lot of things that Jesus didn't say anything about, so “Let me get my list ready,”—you can't make that argument. I remember, after I came to Christ, having a conversation with a lady who was a dean at a liberal seminary in Kansas City.  18:00 My mom “sicced” her on me at one of her GLAD events. I still went with my mom when I was a high schooler / when I was a Christian, because I wanted an opportunity to tell people about Jesus in different conversations. She [the dean] automatically started challenging me. It really came down to the fact, where she said: “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. So that makes it okay.”  Now, we look at it—and you can even get very academic if you want—and say: “Well, Jesus was sent to Israel. In Israel, under a Pharisaical rule, they did not deal with homosexuality like Paul did when he was sent to the Gentiles / to the Roman Empire.” That's another whole ball of wax. If you really want to get exegetical, let's look at Matthew 19, when Jesus has an opportunity to define marriage as anything other than a man and a woman; and does he? No; He affirms what God says in Genesis 2. 19:00 Dennis: So, here you are. You're this on-fire 16-year-old, who now has been baptized. You've been to a conference and surrendered to God's call on your life to move into full-time Christian ministry. I can only imagine—when you went back to Columbia— Bob: Yes—how that news went; yes. Dennis: —and back to where your two moms lived in Kansas City, how did those conversations go down? Caleb: Well, it went down just about like a lead balloon would. Have you ever ridden a lead balloon before? Bob: Just crashed. Caleb: It crashed. It wouldn't get up off the air. I mean, I had committed the unpardonable sin; right? Bob: Becoming a Christian's one thing / now, saying, “I want to be a pastor.” Dennis: “I'm all in.” Caleb: Well, and you throw on top of that, “Hey, I've changed my view of sexuality.” Bob: Right. Caleb: You know—I mean, now I'm one of them in their eyes. The people who were supposed to show me tolerance—they were showing my anything but tolerance. Dennis: How did you do, loving your mom in that situation? Caleb: It was difficult at first; but I got encouragement from my friends, saying, “Caleb, you need to love her no matter what.” I started reading the New Testament.  20:00 Whenever I had free time, I was reading, reading, reading, reading—especially the words of Jesus—and then moving on to Romans, so on and so forth. I really latched onto what Jesus said there and the mercy that He said, even in the beatitudes, when Jesus said, “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.” I cannot own how my mother treats me / I cannot own how somebody else reacts to me—what I can own is my own reactions—how I respond and what I do. That is what God holds me accountable to. I can own how I'm going to love people, no matter what / follow the example of Jesus, when He was hanging on the cross and He said: “Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.” Now, if the Son of God, who is innocent, could say that, after everything He was through, I'm pretty sure I could look at my mom and say: “I forgive you. I'm choosing every day not to hold this against you.” Dennis: I think you're ministering to some parents, who have children, who've come out and who have said, “I think I'm gay.”  21:00 I think you're also ministering to some family members, who may have been invited to a wedding of a relative in their family, where they're struggling with, “What's our response to be?” I think you're also ministering to folks, Caleb, who work in places, where they have close associates, whose lifestyles are different than theirs. You're exhorting all of us, regardless, to go back to the Book / back to the life of Christ and love others the way He loved us. Bob: Well, and I think your example helps there, too, and what you've shared with us of your own story, and what you share in your book, Messy Grace. I think that gives us a blueprint / a living illustration that we can follow and know how to engage with our friends or our family members. We have copies of Caleb's book, Messy Grace, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to request your copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy of the book, Messy Grace.  22:00 Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I know we probably have some of you, who are tuned in today because this is a holiday week for a lot of folks—people taking time off—and maybe some of you, who don't normally listen to FamilyLife Today, have been able to catch the program. We're glad that you joined us.  FamilyLife® is a non-profit organization. We exist to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. This daily radio program is just one aspect of all that we do, here, at FamilyLife. All that we do, here, at FamilyLife is possible because friends, like you, make it possible. We are listener-supported; and your donations help cover, not only the cost of producing and syndicating this program, but all of the outreaches of FamilyLife. All that we're involved with couldn't happen without your support.  23:00 If you're a regular listener, and you've never made a donation, we'd love to have you join the team that supports this ministry. If you're a first-time listener, or a new listener, we hope you'll continue to tune in; and you can download the FamilyLife app from your app store. Just type in FamilyLife as one word and that will give you immediate access to our program every day, so you can listen to it on your time schedule. To donate, go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can donate online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. You can always mail your donation to us as well. Our address is FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, let me just say we believe that your first priority, when it comes to giving, needs to be your local church; so make sure that you're investing well there before you do anything to help support this ministry. 24:00 We hope you can join us back tomorrow when Caleb Kaltenbach will be here again. We're going to talk about how we should interact with friends, coworkers, neighbors—people who we know who identify as LGBT. How do we let them know who we are, and what we believe, and how do we build a relationship there? We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: There is a right way and a wrong way for us to hold fast to biblical truth and still have healthy relationships with our LGBT friends. Caleb Kaltenbach offers an example of the wrong way to go about that.  Caleb: Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT. So, Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that he has to let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—but without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this gay man over here that, now, realized he's being treated like a project. He walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is—he has pushed this man further away from God.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 4th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 How can we represent Jesus well as we build healthy relationships with people who don't live like us, or think like us, or believe like us?  That's what we're going to talk about today. Stay with us.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition, here, on Independence Day in the United States. I'm guessing there are not many people in America we could talk to who grew up in a home where mom and dad got a divorce; mom moved in with her lesbian partner; dad remained a bachelor and later came out of the closet as a gay man; and where the son, who grew up in that situation, wound up going to Bible college, committing his life to fulltime ministry. I'm guessing that's a relatively unusual story.  Dennis: I'm guessing it is, too; but it's what makes this book, Messy Grace, a compelling read. I think this is a safe way for a mom/a dad, a husband/a wife, who is trying to figure out:  2:00 “How do I relate to people who don't believe like I do?”—this is a safe place to go read—and maybe something that some groups of people need to dig into and do a Bible study around—and just interact around these chapters; because I think what our guest on the show today has done is—he's invited all of us into his life / into a world we don't know a whole lot about.  By doing so, he's coaching us as the son of two gay moms / as the son of a father, who after divorcing his mom, came out as a homosexual as well. You know, I just think—as you said, Bob—there's not that many that can offer that kind of insight and coach us from that standpoint.  Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back.  Caleb: Hey, it's great to be here.  Dennis: Bob gave a good overview of your life. He hit something kind of quickly that I want you to unpack for us. Your moms had thrown you out of the house when you said you were becoming a follower of Christ; your dad had done virtually the same.  3:00 What did they say when you said you wanted to go to a Bible school?   Caleb: Again, my mother's partner was a psychologist—a PhD / very smart. Both of my parents were university professors. When I told them that I wanted to go to a Bible college—and in their minds, a narrow-minded Bible college—it did not go over at all. They just said: “You're paying for everything on your own. You—there is no way we're going to help you out with it—nothing is going to happen there,” and “I can't believe that you would even consider that. You're going to wind up homeless on the street; and you're going to be eating ramen noodles your whole life, if you can afford those.”   Bob: But their view did soften over time, because one of them helped you get a loan; didn't they? Caleb: Yes; my dad eventually—because he saw that I was not backing down. It's part of my German stubbornness, I think—we don't back down too easily. I said, “This is what I'm doing, with or without my family, because I feel like God's call is that strong.”  4:00 I said, “I'm going forward with this.”  My dad eventually helped me to get my first loan—that's what they did for me. I spent my weekends preaching in small, country churches to earn money for college; washed dishes in the cafeteria; did everything I could; but I really cut my teeth in Bible college by preaching at a lot of small, country churches.  Dennis: How did they handle your background, or did you keep it a secret from them?   Caleb: No; because I wanted people to know what they were getting into. I remember the first church I ever preached in was in Kansas—small town. We had six people in the church—the youngest one was 60. They wanted to start a youth group—it was going to be a youth group of 40-year-olds. [Laughter]  I told them about my background, and they didn't like that too much.  The second church I was at—I was there for about 18 months. It was in Missouri, and I was near a town called Nevada—[first “a” is long]. It should be called Nevada—[same pronunciation as the state]—but everybody called it Nevada [long “a”] in Missouri. It was near Fort Scott, Kansas. I preached there for 18 months.  5:00 Twenty-five people in the church / fifty people in the town—we were the largest church, per capita, in the world at the time, at best.  Bob: Yes; right.  Dennis: Right.  Caleb: I kind of eased into the conversation about my parents, then; but there was one Sunday that was very, very profound to them. I kept on asking my mom to come to church with me to hear me preach. I was only, I think, at that time, a junior or a sophomore in college. I'd only had one preaching class at my Bible college, and I just really—that's how I learned how to preach.  My mom finally came with me. She wouldn't come back the next Sunday; but it was a good thing because I got there—and there were two elders waiting for me on the front doorstep—they said, “Caleb, we'd like to talk to you.”  They took me to the back room—there were really only two rooms / there was a front room, and there was a back room. They looked at me; and they said, “If you want to keep preaching here, don't you ever bring somebody like your mother again.”   I was floored. I said, “Excuse you?”  They basically said: “We don't like those kinds of people. They make us feel uncomfortable.  6:00 “We are not a church that feels comfortable with these people.”  So, I said, “I quit!”  They said: “Well, you can't quit today. You need to preach.”  I said: “No, no, no, no. Out of all the things you want me to do today, preaching should not be one of them—trust me.”  “No; we need you to preach.”   I ripped up my sermon, and I preached an evangelistic message. I walked out; I got in my car; and I drove away. I said, “Lord, if You ever give me the chance to be able to lead a church—steward it with that opportunity—I want a church that is filled with people who are broken, because that's what the church is.” The church is really a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united together to glorify Himself. Jesus did not die on the cross for a little members-only country club that's really a Pharisee factory—that's not what He did!  He died on the cross for broken people, because only God can put broken people back together.  Dennis: I have to wonder, Caleb, what the homosexual community thinks about you when they hear these stories.  7:00 Obviously, they are going to give you more “grace” / more freedom to speak. But does this gain you favor with them?—that you are speaking of them as they ought to be spoken of—people who are made in the image of God?   Caleb: I think it does. I try to go a little bit further than that to help Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there's always going to be a line with me and the LGBT community; because, at the end of the day, I believe God's Word is true. I believe in the covenant of marriage—that is always going to be there, so that's the line that will never be crossed.  But I think there is a respect there. I've been told by several people in the community that my book has a very gracious tone to it, and they appreciate that. I think they can't argue with the experience, but I try to get a lot of Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there are some in the LGBT community that really appreciate this, because I remember a conversation I had with my mom one time.  8:00 My mom—I don't know how we got in this conversation—but she said, “You know, Caleb, in the last several years in my relationship with Vera, we were not intimate at all.”   You know, first of all, gross!  I mean, I don't want to hear that from my mom; but I immediately looked at her and I said: “So, you're not a lesbian anymore. You haven't been intimate for years.”  And she said: “Well, sure I am!  Those are my people. I have relationships there. I'm part of a community. I'm part of a cause and a movement. I have grace there.”  I said, “Well, Mom, you just described the church.”  And she said: “No, I didn't. Why would I go somewhere that would make me feel less about myself?”   It really dawned on me that, for my mom—she never identified as a lesbian or with the LGBT community because of who she wanted to be intimate with. I mean, even in the ever-growing acronym of the LGBTQQIIAA—I think the last “A” now stands for ally, where you can identify with the LGBT community and still be straight at the same time— 9:00 —because I think the primary thing there for a lot of people is no longer: “This is whom I want to have sex with,”—now, it is: “Who are the people that I identify with?”  It really has become more of a philosophy and an ideology.  Here's where a lot of Christians will misstep—I want to be careful not to say, “mistake,”— but they will do things out of order. Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT—like a gay a man. Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that, you know, he has to, at some point, let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—which, I believe all those chapters, completely / I believe them, word for word—I believe they are true.  But without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this man. This gay man over here, who thought he was getting a new friend, now, realized he has been treated like a project; and he walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is— 10:00 —he has pushed this man further away from God. Dennis: Yes.  Caleb: Here is the other thing—Joe is telling him, “Hey, do not define yourself by your sexual orientation.”  But when Joe thinks, “Hey, the most important thing I've got to address first is ‘Who you want to be intimate with?'”—you have just reduced them down to their sexual orientation. The irony is—you have done to them what you've asked them not to do to themselves.  I think that, as we get to know people—no matter who they are / no matter what kind of life choice they might be in—when we get to know them—and I believe that God gives opportunity for us to have difficult conversations in the context of trust and relationship—I really believe that. I believe that, if we think deeper about LGBT community / if we think deeper about this—to where, for them, it is an identity—and we say: “Okay; instead of trying to fix you—I'll leave that up to God—I'll point you to the cross, and tell you the truth; but I'm going to help you identify with Jesus, first and foremost.”  11:00  He's pretty good at life change.  Dennis: And you are going to offer a community to them.  Caleb: Absolutely; because we have to bring them over to our community, because nobody is going to leave one community if they don't feel like another community is safe.  Dennis: Yes; it truly is an alternative lifestyle that is worth it though.  Caleb: Yes; it is.  Bob: When you brought your mom to church and she heard you preach, what was the conversation like after that on the way home?   Caleb: She was very affirming. My mom has always been affirming of me—she's always been a big fan of me. So— Bob: “You're a good speaker.”   Caleb: Yes; “You're a good speaker.”  I think she looks at me as some kind of civil rights leader or something like that; you know?   Bob: You've got good things to say / you're calling people to justice—that kind of thing?   Caleb: Absolutely.  Bob: There did come a time, though, where she started to soften to the message that you were preaching; right?   Caleb: Yes; well, actually, there were two times. The first time was when I eventually graduated from Bible college.  12:00 I moved to Southern California; I lived out there for 11 years and worked at a church called Shepherd Church / Shepherd of the Hill Church. She came out, and she visited our multi-site campus one Sunday.  When she heard the message, afterwards—it was funny—we were driving down [Hwy.] 101. We were almost—both of us a fatality; because she said, “I think I might be closer to accepting Christ.”  When she said that, I just—I don't know what happened—I just lost control of the steering wheel. We went into the other lane. People started honking. I led my mom to cuss, at that point, by accident because she was afraid; but it was just such a unique experience. [Laughter] That was not the point that she accepted Christ; but she was softening, and she was getting to the point at that juncture in her life.  Bob: So, what was the second time?   Caleb: I got married in 2004—a beautiful Latina woman—she is this gorgeous lady. [Laughter]  13:00 Finally, I wanted to preach after 11 years. We moved to Dallas, Texas, to go pastor a church. When we moved there, both of my parents, separately of one another, moved there to be closer to our family. I had never really lived in like a five-mile radius of my parents since I was two; but then, my parents floored me when they said, “Can we start attending your church?”   Dennis: independent of each other.  Caleb: Yes; independent!  They both started attending my church, and it was fascinating. What was even more annoying is that my church treated them better than I did—they loved my parents. This was a catalyst for my parents to come closer to Jesus, because they finally were around a group of people that treated them like people and not like evangelistic projects—it was huge.  So, then— Dennis: I want to stop there because we had Rosaria Butterfield on FamilyLife Today, and she instructed our listeners, as well as Bob and me, how important hospitality is to the homosexual community.  14:00 That sounds like what happened in your church in Dallas—how they invited your mom and dad into community and into their homes to be able to relate to them and get to know them.  Caleb: Absolutely, and I think that we should do that with everybody, period, in our churches. I mean, if you invite somebody over to your house, you know what? You're going to treat them like a guest—you're going to extend hospitality to them. At our church, every Sunday, we're always expecting guests from all walks of life; and we have people from all walks of life.  You know, not everybody at my church in Dallas was excited about it, but there were quite a few who were; so, the summer of 2013, we had an opportunity to move back to Simi Valley—it was my wife's hometown; she loves it there; we have a lot of friends there. We love Southern California. My wife loves Disneyland—loves Disneyland. So, we moved back.  Two weeks before we moved back, both my parents gave their lives to the Lord—both of them—  Bob: —independent of one another?   15:00 Caleb: —independent of one another.  Dennis: You've got to share how that happened. I mean, there is too much of a drama here and too much of a history—not to just say: “Here's what my mom did,” “Here's what my dad did.”  Caleb: I remember talking with my mom; and she had been in a hospital, because she was having some health issues. She had been praying with a lot of people. She said, “Caleb, I believe that I'm a Christian.”  We talked about it, and I talked to her about what she believed. I really believe, with all my heart, that she was and that she still is a Christian.  Now, does she believe everything that I believe, theologically?  No; she doesn't. Does she believe the fundamentals—the orthodoxy?  Yes; she does. Is she still working out her salvation with fear and trembling / the sanctification process?—absolutely. God is working that in her. There is a lot of emotional hurt and pain, throughout the years, that she has to tread through; but I truly believe that she is saved.  Bob: I think you raise an important point, which is:  16:00 “When somebody comes to faith, and when they do affirm the essentials of the faith, they come in with a background / with a story—with a lot of things that may have to get worked through. We need to be patient, and let people process, and let them learn from the Word of God / by the Spirit of God things that it may have taken us a while to learn.”   Caleb: I tell our congregation all the time—and actually, I had a meeting with different leaders the weekend before my book released, Messy Grace. I remember in this meeting, I told our volunteers, and our leaders, and our staff, and our elder team the same thing that I say on Sunday morning—I said: “Hey, at this church, we give people margin in their lives to experience God. We don't expect people to automatically get their act together when they start attending after the third week, or the fourth week, or the fifth week.  “We need to give that margin, not only for them, but also for God; because here's the deal—salvation is instantaneous; but usually, it's a process for people to get to that point; and sanctification is a process— 17:00 Bob: Right.  Caleb: —“of God tearing down our prideful walls and making us more into His image. So, we give God margin to work His process.”    It's not that we don't have tough conversations; it's not that we don't do church discipline when that has to be done; but there's—everybody in our church is taking their next step with Jesus somewhere.  Bob: What about your dad?  What was his story?   Caleb: I was over at his house—his apartment, actually—and I remember I was helping him sort through some books. Unfortunately, now, my dad has Alzheimer's. He actually lives closer with us in Simi Valley; but back then, Alzheimer's was setting in, but I hadn't seen it yet. My dad has always been a little disorganized, but I was helping sort through some books.  As we were just sitting there, talking and sorting through books, my dad said: “Caleb, I know I would go to church every now and then”—at the Episcopal Church—“but more than ever, now, I think I see that Jesus really does love me.  18:00 “I just feel that I have a different relationship with Him. I honestly believe that I believe in Him, and my whole relationship is at another level. I really believe that I'm saved.”   I remember hearing that from my dad, again, and thinking to myself, “You've got to be kidding me!” I mean, this is the guy that grounded me when I got baptized / that kicked me out of the house. This is the guy that made fun of me for believing in Christianity because it was illogical—it was not rational; it did not fit his materialistic/physical-focused worldview—and now, completely shift.  Here is a big lesson I learned from that, guys. I learned that people base so much of their view of who God is and who Jesus is off how we treat them. I learned that because, when my parents were around people who treated them like people and not like projects— 19:00 —and really lived out what Jesus says in Matthew 5:46—and actually, 43-48—and what Jesus said in Luke 6:35, when He says: “Hey, love your enemies. Do good. Lend to them, because God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.”   You know, I'm thinking about that. It's in those moments—when people experience God working through us—they see maybe Jesus is different. If I'm going to be honest—when I was sitting in that Bible study in high school, and sitting around and engaging, and when they really knew that I was not saved, their tone changed with me. When their tone changed with me, they became more caring; and when they became more caring and treated me differently, something happened in my heart—something happened.  Bob: Can I just read the verses that you referenced?—Matthew, Chapter 5, starting in verse 43—    20:00 —Jesus says: “You have heard it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'  But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good; sends the rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?  Do not even the tax collectors do the same?  And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?  Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”   That's strong stuff for all of us to hear, but that's what God's calling us to; isn't it?   Caleb: Especially when you think of the first century—that Jesus was probably referring to Roman soldiers when He said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”— 21:00 —“Love the people who have killed your family. Love the people who have killed your brother, and love the occupying force.”  We have trouble loving other politicians in this country.  Dennis: Caleb, we're going to come back after Bob tells listeners how they can get a copy of the book, but here is your assignment—I'm going to ask you to seat your mom and your dad across the table from you and to fulfil the Fifth Commandment. I'm going to ask you to honor and speak a tribute to both of them for what they did do right. Are you willing to do that?   Caleb: Absolutely, because they did do a lot right.  Bob: Let me just mention that the book that you've written, Caleb, is called Messy Grace. It tells your story of growing up in the family you grew up in and how you Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction—that's the subtitle of the book. I think it's a helpful book for all of us. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.  Dennis—   Dennis: Well, Caleb, you've had a few minutes to think about addressing your mom and your dad and giving them both a tribute.  22:00 Speak to them both, if you would please, in the first person.  Caleb: Mom and Dad, I would not be who I am without you. You've instilled in me a sense of justice / a pursuit of those who are different and not like me. You've instilled in me a love of academics, education, logical thinking. You've instilled in me love. Even through the tough moments, there was never a moment when I ever doubted that you loved me. Even through the tough moments of moving from house to house, I never doubted for a second that you loved me. I know that you love me, still, to this day.  I know that God, in His sovereignty, allowed all of this to happen; and I know that this can be the best season of all three of our lives if we trust God in whatever season that we are in.  23:00 I want you to know that, despite what you may feel that you have done wrong or I have, I'm extremely proud / enormously proud to be your son.  I also want you to know that for any pain, throughout the years, that I may have caused you, especially in my religious fervor when I first came to Christ, I apologize for that. As I process through the emotions of learning what it is to follow Christ, and trying to love you, and walking this delicate balance between grace and truth and this tension, I'm sorry if you ever got hurt. I'm sorry for the times that I didn't know how to handle my emotions correctly, because I am not a perfect person; but I know that Satan meant to disrupt and destroy our lives / God allowed it to happen to save lives.  24:00 I truly believe that through both of your lives—even though both of them were painful, even from childhood to now—I truly believe that God is using your lives and this story—which is not just mine / it's yours—to help people for such a time as this because people need help. With the suicide rate of gay teenagers rising, parents need to know how to love; teenagers need to know truth. You have become a clay pot that God is using and shining light on.  Thank you for being you and loving me. I love you so much.  Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Caleb Kaltenbach is a pastor and founder of The Messy Grace Group where he helps churches love and create belonging for those who relate as LGBTQ without sacrificing theological convictions. He also authored God of Tomorrow and Messy Grace (where he discusses being raised in the LGBTQ community, following Jesus, and how loving others doesn't require shifting beliefs).Besides speaking at conferences and churches, Caleb has been a guest with The New York Times, Fox and Friends, The Glenn Beck Show, The Eric Metaxas Show, Christianity Today, Focus on the Family, Family Life Today, Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, Church Leaders Podcast, The 700 Club, Moody radio shows, Q Podcast, Dallas Seminary podcasts, and more. A graduate of Ozark Christian College and Talbot School of Theology (Biola University), he received his doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary. In addition to having served as a lead pastor and associate pastor, Caleb has served on the boards of ministries and colleges. He and his family live in Southern California.

Caleb Kaltenbach is a pastor and founder of The Messy Grace Group where he helps churches love and create belonging for those who relate as LGBTQ without sacrificing theological convictions. He also authored God of Tomorrow and Messy Grace (where he discusses being raised in the LGBTQ community, following Jesus, and how loving others doesn't require shifting beliefs).Besides speaking at conferences and churches, Caleb has been a guest with The New York Times, Fox and Friends, The Glenn Beck Show, The Eric Metaxas Show, Christianity Today, Focus on the Family, Family Life Today, Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, Church Leaders Podcast, The 700 Club, Moody radio shows, Q Podcast, Dallas Seminary podcasts, and more. A graduate of Ozark Christian College and Talbot School of Theology (Biola University), he received his doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary. In addition to having served as a lead pastor and associate pastor, Caleb has served on the boards of ministries and colleges. He and his family live in Southern California.

Caleb Kaltenbach - author of Messy Grace and God of Tomorrow - discusses his new book and how we might confidently face our futures. He not only shares his story of what it was like growing up with three gay parents, but how Christians might better engage with our neighbors and the wider culture around us. For more: biola.edu/the-biola-hour

We are SO EXCITED to have Caleb Kaltenbach, author of "God of Tomorrow," on The Autumn Miles Show! Tune in as Autumn and Caleb discuss his new book and what it means to overcome the fears of today to renew your hope for the future.

In part 2 of 2 of this episode, Justin and Matthew sit down with Caleb Kaltenbach, author and pastor, who grew up in the LGBTQ community, gives us some insight in engaging with students in that community and how to engage culture in general. He addresses both in his two books which we recommend you check out! Messy Grace: https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Grace-Parents-Sacrificing-Conviction/dp/1601427360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527487990&sr=1-1&keywords=messy+grace+by+caleb+kaltenbach God Of Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/God-Tomorrow-Overcome-Fears-Future/dp/0735289980/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

In part 2 of 2 of this episode, Justin and Matthew sit down with Caleb Kaltenbach, author and pastor, who grew up in the LGBTQ community, gives us some insight in engaging with students in that community and how to engage culture in general. He addresses both in his two books which we recommend you check out! Messy Grace: https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Grace-Parents-Sacrificing-Conviction/dp/1601427360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527487990&sr=1-1&keywords=messy+grace+by+caleb+kaltenbach God Of Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/God-Tomorrow-Overcome-Fears-Future/dp/0735289980/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

In part 1 of 2 of this episode, Justin and Matthew sit down with Caleb Kaltenbach, author and pastor, who grew up in the LGBTQ community, gives us some insight in engaging with students in that community and how to engage culture in general. He addresses both in his two books which we recommend you check out! Messy Grace: https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Grace-Parents-Sacrificing-Conviction/dp/1601427360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527487990&sr=1-1&keywords=messy+grace+by+caleb+kaltenbach God Of Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/God-Tomorrow-Overcome-Fears-Future/dp/0735289980/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

In part 1 of 2 of this episode, Justin and Matthew sit down with Caleb Kaltenbach, author and pastor, who grew up in the LGBTQ community, gives us some insight in engaging with students in that community and how to engage culture in general. He addresses both in his two books which we recommend you check out! Messy Grace: https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Grace-Parents-Sacrificing-Conviction/dp/1601427360/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527487990&sr=1-1&keywords=messy+grace+by+caleb+kaltenbach God Of Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/God-Tomorrow-Overcome-Fears-Future/dp/0735289980/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8