Podcast appearances and mentions of bob well

Bob Bonneau, country manager for ESET Canada The ESET Women in Cybersecurity Scholarship is in its eleventh year globally and its fifth year in Canada. This year, ESET is awarding three $5,000 scholarships to Canadian women pursuing careers in cybersecurity, with applications open through April 8, 2026. The numbers are substantial. Across North America, ESET has awarded $187,000 to 39 women since the program launched. In Canada alone, 14 women have received a combined $50,000 since 2021. But here’s what caught our attention. When we asked ESET Canada country manager Bob Bonneau where past recipients have ended up, the answer was honest: they’ve largely gone to work at tech companies at the source of the technology, not at channel partners or MSPs. It’s a gap Bob acknowledged openly, and one he committed to thinking about differently as the program evolves. That matters for the channel. Canada’s cybersecurity workforce gap is well documented — the ISC2 Cybersecurity Workforce Study puts women at roughly 22% of the global cybersecurity workforce, and Canadian numbers have been largely stagnant for two decades. Every MSP competing for security talent is drawing from the same thin pool, and retention is just as hard as hiring. As Bob put it, the second someone updates their LinkedIn with cybersecurity experience, the recruiters come calling. Worth noting: the scholarship is open to any woman enrolled in or accepted to an accredited Canadian college or university, including those studying part-time while working. That means someone already in the channel who’s upgrading her skills could be eligible. If you’ve got someone on your team who fits, point her toward the application before April 8. Read Full Transcript Robert Dutt: Hello and welcome to In The Channel from ChannelBuzz.ca, bringing news and information to the Canadian IT channel for the last 16 years. I’m Robert Dutt, editor of ChannelBuzz.ca and your host for the show. If you’ve been in the channel for any length of time, you know that finding and keeping cybersecurity talent is one of the biggest operational challenges MSPs and other solution providers face. Canada needs to fill roughly 25,000 cybersecurity roles and produces fewer than 4,000 graduates a year. That math doesn’t work, and it’s not getting better fast enough. One program that’s been trying to move the needle is the ESET Women in Cybersecurity Scholarship, now in its 11th year globally and 5th year in Canada. This year, ESET is awarding three $5,000 scholarships to women in Canada who are pursuing careers in cybersecurity. Applications are open right now through April 8th. But I didn’t want to just tell you that the scholarship exists. I wanted to dig into the thinking behind it. Why a security vendor invests in something like this, what happens with the talent it produces, and whether programs like this are actually connecting to the channel or feeding the pipeline somewhere else entirely. My guest today is Bob Bonneau, country manager for ESET Canada, and he had some candid answers to those questions. Let’s get right into it, my chat with Bob Bonneau. Bob, thanks for taking the time. Nice to chat with you again. Bob Bonneau: Likewise, I appreciate being here. Thanks for the invite. It’s always a pleasure to catch up. Robert: The ESET Women in Cybersecurity Scholarship is in its 11th year now, 5th year in Canada. Can you tell me what was the original thinking behind expanding the program here, and has the program evolved in ways you didn’t expect when you were thinking about that five or six years ago? Bob: Yeah, for me, as you know, I took over the role of leading Canada about six years ago, and it was too soon in the first year for us to kind of jump on board. But having been exposed to what the US office had initiated from an ESET perspective in terms of the scholarship was certainly something that I thought was just a great initiative and something that I was excited to kind of join and be part of. So I quickly made plans to ensure that we were included in the next year, and we’ve been a part of it ever since. I would say initially, we started with a single $5,000 scholarship, and as much as there was — it was an investment we were making that, contrary to popular belief where every vendor-invested dollar, especially in something like this, has to have some sort of ROI metrics to it — this didn’t have that. This is purely something that we felt passionate about needing to do, and we thought it addressed a couple of different main areas in our business that we were trying to address. But when I look at the early days, it was funny because it is very much a marketing effort just to get the information out there that we’re in fact offering it. So I would say we had the $5,000 scholarship offered and we worked hard to get that communicated out so that we could get a good submission base to start to evaluate. And if we fast-forward to going into this year, it’s now scaled to three $5,000 scholarships that we’re offering. What used to be largely an internal company effort — we would look at the submissions and evaluate them and select the winners — there’s now a 10-person selection committee made up of representation from business, tech partners, large customers of ours, our reseller community. So it’s really expanded from there, and it’s great to see. Part of why we scaled it is because the volume of submissions has grown so much, which is great. But quite frankly, the impressiveness of the applicants just makes that job really hard. So it really has evolved to what we’re seeing today, and it’s been great to be part of that. It’s also evolved from a company perspective, which is great. Now having, I think we’ve got seven countries participating in it. Robert: Wow. So far you guys have awarded $50,000 to 14 Canadian women through this program. When you look at where past recipients have ended up, they’ve largely gone to work at tech companies rather than, say, roles in the channel with partners or MSPs. Is that the intended outcome, or is there a gap between investing in the pipeline and seeing that young talent show up in the channel? Bob: Yeah, it’s a great point. I think the effort was obviously established to address two main gaps that we have in our business today. One, obviously, the underrepresentation of women in technology. I think that number is hovering around the mid-20% in Canada, but it’s only grown from about 21% in 2001. So it’s been largely stagnant — a number that we wanted to, in at least our small way, try to impact. The broader challenge obviously is the skills shortage in cybersecurity, which there’s no shortage of articles around. I think the more recent data suggesting 25 to 30,000 open positions in Canada, with that gap expected to hit somewhere around 100,000 by 2035. And globally it’s even more ridiculous — it’s 4.8 million, I think, is the current number. So two major challenges that we have in our industry, but you bring up a good point. I think initially it was less about — I don’t think we were thinking that deep in terms of how does this impact channel, how could it impact channel. I would say we’re engaging our channel partners through the effort, and they’re really enjoying being part of the selection committee and those types of things. We’re seeing partners, as a result of their participation in the selection committee, starting to do their own version of this, which is great to see. But I think you’re right. I think there’s probably an opportunity for us to evangelize the channel part of the opportunity from an employment perspective as we’re doing some of this effort, and it’s probably something that we can look to in the future. But holistically, the gap and the challenge in terms of women in tech as well as just the skills shortage affects both our partner community and our customer base as well. So yeah, I think you bring up a good point. There’s probably an opportunity for us to maybe use our exposure to the applicants to try to evangelize the channel a little bit more going forward. Robert: Well, and it’s often a good entry point for folks just starting out in cybersecurity. I can tell you that every MSP I’m talking to, one of their biggest challenges — the biggest challenge — is hiring the right people, especially in security, for the numbers that you point out. And I think as you say, maybe there’s an opportunity for you guys too. I mean, I understand that the goal of the scholarship is to grow the overall pool and then the market sorts it out. But it does occur to me — the scholarship itself isn’t strictly limited to students who are purely full-time at a school. If I’m a solution provider who has a female employee who also happens to be upgrading her skills at college part-time, they could theoretically be pointing her toward this. Is that a use case you’ve seen or thought about? Bob: We haven’t seen it in terms of — we tend to see more full-time students applying. We haven’t seen those returning to either enhance their current skills or — actually, we have seen some submissions from part-time students. So let me correct that. But specifically from channel, not to date. But you do bring up a great point. It’s one that we — I think if we look to subsequent years, next year, to really promote both the channel to the applicants who may be applying, but also to the channel to solicit those that might want to consider applying for it. For those that are doing some reskilling on their part, there’s probably an opportunity for us to evolve that. Again, like I said, the initiative has been more philanthropic than it’s been carved down into how do we use this as an opportunity to work with the channel more. But I think you bring up a great concept and idea and one that I certainly will take under advisement and work with the team on for next year. I think they’re great ideas. Again, it’s part of the evolution of how this thing has grown and how we think about it. I think there’s a good opportunity to start to look at it a little bit more strategically around how we work with and engage the channel and use it to promote the channel a little bit more. Robert: And it’s not too late. To your listeners, if you’re listening to this and you have a woman working for you that fits in that category, nominations are open through — correct me if I’m wrong here Bob — April 8th? Bob: April 8th is when those submissions close, correct. So there’s still time to get your submissions in. We’re starting to see them come in now. It’s interesting — we see a big spike in those that have initiated, and we tend to see those applications get submitted closer to the deadline. So it’s really something that people are spending a lot of time working on, which is great. And I would say we really focused a little bit more on the cybersecurity element, whereas initially it was a little bit broader, more sort of STEM, and now we’re really trying to focus in on those applicants that are showing a real proficiency or directive toward cybersecurity. Robert: Makes sense, given both where you sit and the need, which we’ve talked about and which everyone listening to this is no doubt well acquainted with. You guys added the Future Leader tier in Canada last year — a $1,000 award alongside the $5,000 Trailblazer level. What was behind creating that second tier, and what have you learned about reaching people earlier in the pipeline as you’ve done this? Bob: Yeah, so it’s again part of the evolution. We initially said $5,000 times one, then it was $5,000 times two, and even when we got to the $5,000 times two, the applicant pool was so strong that quite honestly our selection committee — and again, this is made up of directors and general managers and VPs from all sorts of business, large enterprise customers, partners, other technology-aligned partners — they really just struggled with how do we pick just two. So we said, okay, well, what can we maybe do in terms of evolving the program? That’s when we made the decision last year to offer five $1,000 bursaries. But as we pivoted back to this year, we pulled that back a little bit and went to three $5,000 scholarships, as opposed to the five $1,000 bursaries. Part of our thinking was we wanted it to be more impactful, even if it meant fewer people, and given just the cost of education and what’s happening today, it just felt like it was more relevant to offer $5,000 times three versus the additional $1,000 bursaries. So that’s where we’re at today, and I think directionally that’s likely where it’ll continue to go. In terms of the stats from North America, there will be a total of $35,000 given this year — $20,000 in the US and $15,000 in Canada. And since inception for North America, there’s been over $187,000 awarded to 39 women. So we’re excited to evolve this. I think we’re tweaking it for the right reasons, and we’ll continue to tweak it. Some of the recommendations you made for going forward, I think, are certainly ones we want to take advantage of as well. Robert: I love those relative American-to-Canadian numbers, given that we’re so used to either multiplying or dividing by 10 depending on which way you’re going. To see it so close to parity given market sizes, that’s a great sign. The Alumni Club is relatively new. What’s the vision there — is that mainly a networking thing for recipients, or are you trying to build something more structured that connects those folks to the industry longer term? Bob: Yeah, I think it’s a bit of both. We first of all wanted to make sure that we have methods to maintain relationships with these folks, and to see where they end up and how they evolve, and to continue to be a support mechanism for them as they look to build their careers in this industry. So it really created that tether for us to keep in contact with them, which is great, and to continue to offer them some opportunity for mentorship. We see a lot of students nowadays open to the idea of moving and traveling and seeing the world and maybe working in different locations. And because we’re global and we’re seeing more and more of our regions participate in it, there’s that opportunity for us to potentially help them in terms of building their career. What we wanted to create was long-lasting relationships with our recipients, and not just hand them an award and bid them adieu and wish them all the best. So I think this is just another evolution, in part of the program, as well as the adoption. Like I said, we’re in seven countries now, and we continue to see countries added every year. We’re excited to be able to offer it, and like anything else, it’s just continuing to make sure that they’re aware it exists and that we encourage them to take advantage of it. Robert: ESET picked up the CRN Gender Parity Award last year. How do you think about whether vendor-side diversity commitments actually translate out into the partner ecosystem? Is that connection real now, or is that still sort of aspirational? Bob: That’s a great question, and I guess it’s going to be a little bit more opinion-based. But I do think the latter is true — I do think you’re starting to see some really good movement in the positive direction across both channel and vendor communities. Certainly when you look at where the gaps would have been in terms of women representation in our organization, we’re pretty proud of our mix. And the more that we engage, the more that we work with our partners, the more that we solicit folks to be part of even our selection committee — it’s surprising how many women are starting to hold higher positions within both our partner communities and within our commercial customers. So that’s great to see, and it’s great to see how excited they are to participate in a venture like this to try to continue to encourage that statistic to change. Robert: My last question. If an MSP or other partner came to you and said, “I want to hire more women into security roles, but I don’t know where to start,” what would you tell them? Bob: Well, first of all, I would probably say I don’t think it’s as difficult as it might appear to be. I think if you’ve constantly landed at that decision, that you want to try to do that, I think there’s enough opportunity to go and find those folks for those types of roles. I just think you need to decide that that’s something you want to address. When it’s just sort of passive, it may be a little bit more difficult to do if you’re just kind of waiting for it. But we’re happy to put them in touch with — there’s several organizations, there’s events happening now, even in Canada and Toronto and in the US, that are really communities based on women in cybersecurity. There’s a growing number of them. I think attending those, or being part of those, or reaching out to those communities is a great way to find good talent that’s really proactively working at their career in cybersecurity. Robert: Some good advice there, and good luck finding those lucky winners for this year when those nominations close in just a little bit. Bob, thanks for taking the time. Bob: Appreciated, as always. We look forward to seeing what the applicant pool looks like this year, and certainly going through the applications and reading what they have to say and what their submissions are. It’s a great part of what we do. We enjoy it every year, and we look forward to the event when we get to invite them and hand them the big novelty check at the end. The novelty check is always a fun time. Robert: Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much. There you have it, Bob Bonneau from ESET Canada. I’d like to thank Bob for his time and for being genuinely open about where the program is and where it could go. It’s not every day that a vendor admits on tape they haven’t fully connected a talent initiative to their channel and then commits to thinking about it differently. A couple of things I want you to take away from this. First, the obvious one: if you know a woman in Canada who’s enrolled in college or university and has an interest in cybersecurity, point her toward the ESET Women in Cybersecurity Scholarship. Applications close April 8th — we’ll have a link in the show notes. And that includes women who might already be working in the channel and upgrading their skills part-time. There’s nothing that says this is only for traditional full-time students. Second, and maybe more importantly: Bob’s comment about retention — that the second someone updates their LinkedIn with cybersecurity experience, the recruiters come calling — that should land for every MSP owner listening. You’re not just competing to hire these people. You’re competing to keep them. And if you’re not thinking about what makes your shop attractive to a 21-year-old with security skills and options, someone else is. Thanks for listening. You can find In The Channel on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and most podcast directories. If you’re finding the show useful, a rating or review goes a long way. Until next time, I’m Robert Dutt for ChannelBuzz.ca, and I’ll see you in the channel.

Bob Goodson was the first employee at Yelp, founder of social media analytics company Quid, co-inventor of the Like button, and co-author of the new book Like: The Button That Changed the World. On Oct 1, 2025, Bob spent a day with our MBA students at the University of Kansas, and he shared so much great content that I asked him if we could put together some of the highlights as a podcast, which I've now put together in three chapters: First is Careers, second is Building Companies, and third is AI and Social Media. As a reminder, any views and perspectives expressed on the podcast are solely those of the individual, and not those of the organizations they represent. Hope you enjoy the episode. - [Transcript] Nate:  My name is Nate Meikle. You're listening to Meikles and Dimes, where every episode is dedicated to the simple, practical, and under-appreciated. Bob Goodson was the first employee at Yelp, founder of social media analytics company Quid, co-inventor of the like button, and co-author of the new book Like: The Button That Changed the World. On Oct 1, 2025, Bob spent a day with our MBA students at the University of Kansas, and he shared so much great content that I asked him if we could put together some of the highlights as a podcast, which I've now put together in three chapters: First is Careers, second is Building Companies, and third is AI and Social Media. As a reminder, any views and perspectives expressed on the podcast are solely those of the individual and not those of the organizations they represent. Hope you enjoy the episode. Let's jump into Chapter 1 on Careers. For the first question, a student asked Bob who he has become and how his experiences have shaped him as a person and leader.   Bob:  Oh, thanks, Darrell. That's a thoughtful question. It's thoughtful because it's often not asked, and it's generally not discussed. But I will say, and hopefully you'll feel like this about your work if you don't already, that you will over time, which is I'm 45 now, so I have some sort of vantage point to look back over. Like, I mean, I started working when I was about 9 or 10 years old, so I have been working for money for about 35 years. So I'm like a bit further into my career than perhaps I look. I've been starting companies and things since I was about 10. So, in terms of like my professional career, which I guess started, you know, just over 20 years ago, 20 years into that kind of work, the thing I'm most grateful for is what it's allowed me to learn and how it's evolved me as a person. And I'm also most grateful on the business front for how the businesses that I've helped create and the projects and client deployments and whatever have helped evolve the people that have worked on them. Like I genuinely feel that is the most lasting thing that anything in business does is evolve people. It's so gratifying when you have a team member that joins and three years later you see them, just their confidence has developed or their personality has developed in some way. And it's the test of the work that has evolved them as people. I mean, I actually just on Monday night, I caught up for the first time in 10 years with an intern we had 10 years ago called Max Hofer. You can look him up. He was an intern at Quid. He was from Europe, was studying in London, came to do an internship with us in San Francisco for the summer. And, he was probably like 18, 19 years old. And a few weeks ago, he launched his AI company, Parsewise, with funding from Y Combinator. And, he cites his experience at Quid as being fundamental in choosing his career path, in choosing what field he worked in and so on. So that was, yeah, that was, when you see these things happening, right, 10 years on, we caught up at an event we did in London on Monday. And it's just it's really rewarding. So I suppose, yeah, like I suppose it's it's brought me a lot of perspective, brought me a lot of inner peace, actually, you know, the and and when you're when I was in the thick of it at times, I had no sense of that whatsoever. Right. Like in tough years. And there were some - there have been some very tough years in my working career that you don't feel like it's developing you in any way. It just feels brutal. I liken starting a company, sometimes it's like someone's put you in a room with a massive monster and the monster pins you down and just bats you across the face, right, for like a while. And you're like just trying to get away from the monster and you're like, finally you get the monster off your back and then like the monster's just on you again. And it just, it's just like you get a little bit of space and freedom and then the monster's back and it's just like pummeling you. And it's just honestly some years, like for those of you, some of you are running companies now, right? And starting your own companies as well. And I suppose it's not just starting companies. There are just phases in your career and work where it's like you look back and you're like, man, that year was just like, that was brutal. You just get up and fight every day, and you just get knocked down every day. So I think, I don't wish that on anybody, but it does build resilience that then transfers into other aspects of your life.    Nate:  Next, a student made a reference to the first podcast episode I recorded with Bob and asked him if he felt like he was still working on the most important problem in his field.    Bob:  Yeah, thank you. Thanks for listening to the podcast, as this gives us… thanks for the chance to plug the podcast. So the way I met Nate is that he interviewed me for his podcast. And for those of you who haven't listened to it, it's a 30 minute interview. And he asked this question about what advice would you share with others? And we honed in on this question of like, what is the most important problem in your field? And are you working on it? Which I love as a guide to like choosing what to work on. And so we had a great conversation. I enjoyed it so much and really enjoyed meeting Nate. So we sort of said, hey, let's do more fun stuff together in the future. So that's what brought us to this conversation. And thanks to Nate for, you know, bringing us all together today. I'm always working on what I think is the most important problem in front of me. And I always will be. I can't help it. I don't have to think about it. I just can't think about anything else. So yes, I do feel like right now I'm working on the most important problem in my field. And I feel like I've been doing that for about 20 years. And it's not for everybody, I suppose. But I just think, like, let's talk about that idea a little bit. And then I'll say what I think is the most important problem in my field that I'm working on. Like, just to translate it for each of you. Systems are always evolving. The systems we live in are evolving. We all know that. People talk about the pace of change and like life's changing, technology's changing and so on. Well, it is, right? Like humans developed agriculture 5,000 years ago. That wasn't very long ago. Agriculture, right? Just the idea that you could grow crops in one area and live in that area without walking around, without moving around settlements and different living in different places. And that concept is only 5,000 years old, right? I mean, people debate exactly how old, like 7, 8,000. But anyway, it's not that long ago, considering Homo sapiens have been walking around for in one form or another for several hundred thousand years and humans in general for a couple million years. So 5,000 years is not long. Look at what's happened in 5,000 years, right? Like houses, the first settlements where you would actually just live at sleep in the same place every night is only 5,000 years old. And now we've got on a - you can access all the world's knowledge - on your phone for free through ChatGPT and ask it sophisticated questions and all right answers. Or you can get on a plane and fly all over the world. You have, you know, sophisticated digital currency systems. We have sophisticated laws. And like, we've got to be aware, I think, that we are living in a time of great change. And that has been true for 5,000 years, right? That's not new. So I think about this concept of the forefront. I imagine, human development is, you can just simply imagine it like a sphere or balloon that someone's like blowing up, right? And so every time they breathe into it, like something shifts and it just gets bigger. And so there's stuff happening on the forefront where it's occupying more space, different space, right? There's stuff in the middle that's like a bit more stable and a bit more, less prone to rapid change, right? The education system, some parts of the healthcare system, like certain professions, certain things that are like a bit more stable, but there's stuff happening all the time on the periphery, right? Like on the boundary. And that stuff is affecting every field in one way or another. And I just think if you get a chance to work on that stuff, that's a really interesting place to live and a really interesting place to work. And I feel like you can make a contribution to that, right, if you put yourself on the edge. And it's true for every field. So whatever field you're in, we had people here today, you know, in everything from, yeah, like the military to fitness to, you know, your product, product design and management and, you know, lots of different, you know, people, different backgrounds. But if you ask yourself, what is the most important thing happening in my area of work today, and then try to find some way to work on it, then I think that sort of is a nice sort of North Star and keeps things interesting. Because the sort of breakthroughs and discoveries and important contributions are actually not complicated once you put yourself in that position. They're obvious once you put yourself in that position, right? It's just that there aren't many people there hanging out in that place. If you're one of them, if you put yourself there, not everyone's there, suddenly you're kind of in a room where like lots of cool stuff can happen, but there aren't many people around to compete with you. So you're more likely to find those breakthroughs, whether it's for your company or for, you know, the people you work with or, you know, maybe it's inventions and, but it just, anyway, so I really like doing that. And in my space right now, I call it the concept of being the bridge. And this could apply to all of you too. It's a simple idea that the world's value, right, is locked up in companies, essentially. Companies create value. We can debate all the other vehicles that do it, but basically most of the world's value is tied up in companies and their processes. And that's been true for a long time. There's a new ball of power in the world, which is been created by large language models. And I think of that just like a new ball of power. So you've got a ball of value and a ball of power. And the funny thing about this new ball of power is this actually has no value. That's a funny thing to say, right? The large language models have no value. They don't. They don't have any value and they don't create value. Think about it. It's just a massive bag of words. That has no value, right? I can send you a poem now in the chat. Does that have any value? You might like it, you might not, but it's just a set of words, right? So you've got this massive bag of words that with like a trillion connections, no value whatsoever. That is different from previous tech trends like e-commerce, for example, which had inherent value because it was a new way to reach consumers. So some tech trends do have inherent value because they're new processes, but large language models don't. They're just a new technology. They're very powerful. So I call it a ball of power. but they don't have any value. So why is there a multi-trillion dollar opportunity in front of all of us right now in terms of value creation? It's being the bridge. It's how to make use of this ball of power to improve businesses. And businesses only have two ways you improve them. You save money or you grow revenue. That's it. So being the bridge, like taking this new ball of power and finding ways to save money, be more efficient, taking this new ball of power and finding ways to access new consumers, create new offerings and so on, right? Solve new problems. That is where all the value is. So while you may think that the new value, this multi-trillion dollar opportunity with AI is really for the people that work on the AI companies, sure, there's a lot of, you know, there's some money to be made there. And if you can go work for OpenAI, you probably should. Everyone should be knocking the door down. Everyone should be applying for positions because it's the most important company, you know, in our generation. But if you're not in OpenAI or Meta or Microsoft or whoever, you know, three or four companies in the US that are doing this, for everybody else, it's about being the bridge, finding ways that in your organizations, you can unlock the power of AI by bringing it into the organizations and finding ways to either save money or grow the business. And that's fascinating to me because anybody can be the bridge. You don't have to be good with large language models. You have to understand business processes and you have to be creative and willing to even think like this. And suddenly you can be on the forefront of like creating massive value at your companies because you were the, you know, you're the one that brings brings in the new tools. And I think that skill set, there are certain skills involved in being the bridge, but that skill set of being the bridge is going to be so valuable in the next 5 to 10 years. So I encourage people, and that's what I'm doing. Like, I see my role - I serve clients at Quid. I love working with clients. You know, I'm not someone that really like thrives for management and like day-to-day operations and administration of a business. I learned that about myself. And so I just spend my time serving clients. I have done for several years now. And I love just meeting clients and figuring out how they can use Quid's AI, Quid's data, and any other form of AI that we want to bring to the table to improve their businesses. And that's just what I do with my time full-time. And I'll probably be doing that for at least the next 5 or 10 years. I think the outlook for that area of work is really huge.    Nate:  Building on the podcast episode where Bob talked about working on the most important problem in his field, I asked if he could give us some more details on how he took that advice and ended up at Yelp.    Bob:  So I was in grad school in the UK studying, well, I was actually on a program for medieval literature and philosophy, but looking into like language theory. So it was not the most commercial course that one could be doing. But I was a hobbyist programmer, played around with the web when it first came up and was making, you know, various new types of websites for students. while in my free time. I didn't think of that as commercial at all. I didn't see any commercial potential in that. But I did meet the founders of PayPal that way, who would come to give a talk. And I guess they saw the potential in me as a product manager. You know, there's lots of new apps they wanted to build. This is in 2003. And so they invited me to the US to work for them. And I joined the incubator when there were just five people in it. Max Levchin was one of them, the PayPal co-founder. Yelp, Jeremy Stoppelman and Russel Simmons were in those first five people. They turned out to be the Yelp co-founders. And Yelp came out of the incubator. So we were actually prototyping 4 companies each in a different industry. There was a chat application that we called Chatango that was five years before Twitter or something, but it was a way of helping people to chat online more easily. There were, which is still around today, but didn't make it as a hit. There was an ad network called AdRoll, which ended up getting renamed and is still around today. That wasn't a huge hit, but it's still around. Then there was Slide, which is photo sharing application, photo and video sharing, which was Max's company. That was acquired by Google. And that did reasonably well. I think it was acquired for about $150 million. And then there was Yelp, which you'll probably know if you're in the US and went public on the New York Stock Exchange and now has a billion dollars in revenue. So those are the four things that we were trying to prototype, each very different, as you can see. But I suppose that's the like tactical story, right? Like the steps that took me there. But there was an idea that took me there that started this journey of working on the most, the most important problems that are happening in the time. So if I rewind, when I was studying medieval literature, I got to the point where I was studying the invention of the print press. And I'd been studying manuscript culture and seeing what happened when the print press was invented and how it changed education, politics, society. You know, when you took this technology that made it cheaper to print, to make books, books were so expensive in the Middle Ages. They were the domain of only the wealthiest people. And only 5% of people could read before the print process was invented, right? So 95% of people couldn't read anything or write anything. And that was because the books themselves were just so expensive, they had to be handwritten, right? And so when the print press made the cost of a book drop dramatically, the literacy rates in Europe shot up and it completely transformed society. So I was studying that period and at the same time, like dabbling with websites in the early internet and sort of going, oh, like there was this moment where I was like, the web is our equivalent of the print press. And it's happening right now. I'm talking like maybe 2002, or so when I had this realization. It's happening right now. It's going to change everything during our lifetimes. And I just had a fork in my life where it's like I could be a professor in medieval history, which was the path I was on professionally. I had a scholarship. There were only 5 scholarships in my year, in the whole UK. I was on a scholarship track to be a professor and study things like the emergence of the print press, or I could contribute to the print press of our era, which is the internet, and find some way to contribute, some way, right? It didn't matter to me if it was big or small, it was irrelevant. It was just be in the mix with people that are pushing the boundaries. Whatever I did, I'd take the most junior role available, no problem, but like just be in the mix with the people that are doing that. So yeah, that was the decision, right? Like, and that's what led me down to sort of leave my course, leave my scholarship. And, my salary was $40,000 when I moved to the US. All right. And that's pretty much all I earned for a while. I'd spent everything I had starting a group called Oxford Entrepreneurs. So I had absolutely no money. The last few months actually living in Oxford, I had one meal a day because I didn't have enough money to buy three meals a day. And then I packed up my stuff in a suitcase - one bag - wasn't even a suitcase, it was a rucksack and moved to the US and, you know, and landed there basically on a student visa and friends and family was just thought I was, you know, not making a good decision, right? Like, I'm not earning much money. It's with a bunch of people in a like a dorm room style incubator, right? Where the tables and chairs we pulled off the street because we didn't want to spend money on tables and chairs. And where I get to work seven days a week, 12 hours a day. And I've just walked away from a scholarship and a PhD track at Oxford to go into that. And it didn't look like a good decision. But to me, the chance to work on the forefront of what's happening in our era is just too important and too interesting to not make those decisions. So I've done that a number of times, even when it's gone against commercial interest or career interest. I haven't made the best career decisions, you know, not from a commercial standpoint, but from a like getting to work on the new stuff. Like that's what I've prioritized.    Nate:  Next, I asked Bob about his first meeting with the PayPal founders and how he made an impression on them.    Bob:  Good question, because I think... So I have a high level thought on that, like a rubric to use. And then I have the details. I'll start with the details. So I had started the entrepreneurship club at Oxford. And believe it or not, in 800 years of the University's history, there was no entrepreneurship club. And they know that because when you want to start a new society, you go to university and they go through the archive, which is kept underground in the library, and someone goes down to the library archives and they go through all these pages for 800 years and look for the society that's called that. And if there is one, they pull it out and then they have the charter and you have to continue the charter. Even if it was started 300 years ago, they pull out the charter and they're like, no, you have to modify that one. You can't start with a new charter. So anyway, it's because it's technically a part of the university, right? So they have a way of administrating it. So they went through the records and were like, there's never been a club for entrepreneurs at the university. So we started the first, I was one of the co-founders of this club. And, again, there's absolutely no pay. It was just a charity as part of the university. But I love the idea of getting students who were scientists together with students that were business minded, and kind of bringing technical and creative people together. That was the theme of the club. So we'd host drinks, events and talks and all sorts. And I love building communities, at least at that stage of my life. I loved building communities. I'd been doing it. I started several charities and clubs, you know, throughout my life. So it came quite naturally to me. But what I didn't, I mean, I kind of thought this could happen, but it really changed my life as it put me at the center of this super interesting community that we've built. And I think that when you're in a university environment, like starting clubs, running clubs, even if they're small, like, we, I ran another club that we called BEAR. It was an acronym. And it was just a weekly meetup in a pub where we talked about politics and society and stuff. And like, it didn't go anywhere. It fizzled out after a year or two, but it was really like an interesting thing to work on. So I think when you're in a university environment, even if you guys are virtual, finding ways to get together, it's so powerful. It's like, it's who you're meeting in courses like this that is so powerful. So I put myself in the middle of this community, and I was running it, I was president of it. So when these people came to speak at the business school, I was asked to bring the students along, and I was given 200 slots in the lecture theatre. So I filled them, I got 200 students along. We had 3,000 members, by the way, after like 2 years running this club. It became the biggest club at the university, and the biggest entrepreneurship student community in Europe. It got written up in The Economist actually as like, because it was so popular. But yeah, it meant that I was in the middle of it. And when the business school said, you can come to the dinner with the speakers afterwards, that was my ticket to sit down next to the founder of PayPal, you know. And so, then I sat down at dinner with him, and I had my portfolio with me, which back then I used to carry around in a little folder, like a black paper folder. And every project I'd worked on, every, because I used to do graphic design for money as a student. So I had my graphic design projects. I had my yoga publishing business and projects in there. I had printouts about the websites I'd created. So when I sat down next to him, and he's like, what do you work on? I just put this thing on the table over dinner and was like, he picked it up and he started going through it. And he was like, what's this? What's this? And I think just having my projects readily available allowed him to sort of get interested in what I was working on. Nowadays, you can have a website, right? Like I didn't have a website for a long time. Now I have one. It's at bobgoodson.com where I put my projects on there. You can check it out if you like. But I think I've always had a portfolio in one way or another. And I think carrying around the stuff that you've done in an interactive way is a really good way to connect with people. But one more thing I'll say on this concept, because it connects more broadly to like life in general, is that I think that I have this theory that in your lifetime, you get around five opportunities put in front of you that you didn't yet fully deserve, right? Someone believes in you, someone opens a door, someone's like, hey, Nate, how about you do this? Or like, we think you might be capable of this. And it doesn't happen very often, but those moments do happen. And when they happen, a massive differentiator for your life is do you notice that it's happening and do you grab it with both hands? And in that moment, do everything you can to make it work, right? Like they don't come along very often. And to me, those moments have been so precious. I knew I wouldn't get many of them. And so every time they happened, I've just been all in. I don't care what's going on in my life at that time. When the door opens, I drop everything, and I do everything I can to make it work. And you're stretched in those situations. So it's not easy, right? Like someone's given you an opportunity to do something you're not ready for, essentially. So you're literally not ready for it. Like you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you don't have the knowledge, you don't have the skills. So you only have to do the job, but you have to cultivate your own skills and develop your skills. And that's a lot of work. You know, when I landed in, I mean, working for Max was one of those opportunities where I did not, I'd not done enough to earn that opportunity when I got that opportunity. I landed with five people who had all done PayPal. They were all like incredible experts in their fields, right? Like Russ Simmons, the Yelp co-founder, had been the chief architect of PayPal. He architected PayPal, right? Like I was with very skilled technical people. I was the only Brit. They were all Americans. So I stood out culturally. Most of them couldn't understand what I was saying when I arrived. I've since changed how I speak. So you can understand me, the Americans in the room. But I just mumbled. I wasn't very articulate. So it was really hard to get my ideas across. And I had programmed as a hobbyist, but I didn't know enough to be able to program production code alongside people that had worked at PayPal. I mean, their security levels and their accuracy and everything was just off the, I was in another league, right? So there I was, I felt totally out of my depth, and I had to fight to stay in that job for a year. Like I fought every day for a year to like not get kicked out of that job and essentially out of the country. Because without their sponsorship, I couldn't have stayed in the country. I was on a student visa with them, right? And I worked seven days a week for 365 days in a row. I basically almost lived in the office. I got an apartment a few blocks from the office and I had to. No one else was working those kind of hours, but I had to do the job, and I had to learn 3 new programming languages and all this technical stuff, how to write specs, how to write product specs like I had to research the history of various websites in parts of the internet. So I'm just, I guess I'm just giving some color to like when these doors open in your career and in your life, sometimes they're relationship doors that open, right? You meet somebody who's going to change your life, and it's like, are you going to fight to make that work? And, you know, like, so not all, it's not always career events, but when they happen, I think like trusting your instinct that this is one of those moments and knowing this is one of the, you can't do this throughout your whole life. You burn out and you die young. Like you're just not sustainable. But when they happen, are you going to put the burners on and be like, I'm in. And sometimes it only takes a few weeks. Like the most it's ever taken for me is a year to walk through a door. But like, anyway, like just saying that in case anyone here has one of these moments and like maybe this will resonate with one of you, and you'll be like, that's one of the moments I need to walk through the door.    Nate:  That concludes chapter one. In chapter 2, Bob talks about building companies. First, I asked Bob if he gained much leadership experience at Yelp.    Bob:  I gained some. I suppose my first year or two in the US was in a technical role. So I didn't have anyone reporting to me. I was just working on the user interface and front end stuff. So really no leadership there. But then, there was a day when we still had five people. Jeremy started to go pitch investors for our second round because we had really good traffic growth, right? In San Francisco, we had really nice charts showing traffic growth. We'd started to get traction in New York and started to get traction in LA. So we've had the start of a nice story, right? Like this works in other cities. We've got a model we can get traffic. And Jeremy went to his first VC pitch for the second round. And the VC said, you need to show that you can monetize the traffic before you raise this round. The growth story is fine, but you also need to say, we've signed 3 customers and they're paying this much, right, monthly. So Jeremy came back from that pitch, and I remember very clearly, he sat down, kind of slumped in his chair and he's like, oh man, we're going to have to do some sales before we can raise this next round. Like we need someone on the team to go close a few new clients. And it's so funny because it's like, me and four people and everyone went like this and faced me at the same time. And I was like, why are you looking at me? Like, I'm not, I didn't know how to start selling to local businesses. And they're like, they all looked at each other and went, no, we think you're probably the best for this, Bob. And they were all engineers, like all four of them were like, background in engineering. Even the CEO was VP engineering at PayPal before he did Yelp. So basically, we were all geeks. And for some reason, they thought I would be the best choice to sell to businesses. And I didn't really have a choice in it, honestly. I didn't want to do it. They were just like, you're like, that's what needs to happen next. And you're the most suitable candidate for it. So I I just started picking up the phone and calling dentists, chiropractors, restaurants. We didn't know if Yelp would resonate with bars or restaurants or healthcare. We thought healthcare was going to be big, which is reasonably big for Yelp now, but it's not the focus. But anyway, I just started calling these random businesses with great reviews. I just started with the best reviewed businesses. And the funny thing is some of those people, my first ever calls are still friends today, right? Like my chiropractor that I called is the second person I ever called and he signed up, ended up being my chiropractor for like 15 years living in San Francisco. And now we're still in touch, and we're great friends. So it's funny, like I dreaded those first calls, but they actually turned out to be really interesting people that I met. But yeah, we didn't have a model. We didn't know what to charge for. So we started out charging for calls. We changed the business's phone number. So if you're, you had a 415 number and you're a chiropractor on Yelp, we would change your number to like a number that Yelp owned, but it went straight through to their phone. So it was a transfer, but it meant our system could track that they got the call through Yelp, right? Yeah. And then we tracked the duration of the call. We couldn't hear the call, but we tracked the duration of the call. And then we could report back to them at the end of the month. You got 10 calls from Yelp this month and we're going to charge you $50 a call or whatever. So I sold that to 5 or 10 customers and people hated it. They hated that model because they're like, they'd get a call, it'd be like a wrong number or they just wanted to ask, they're already a current customer and they're asking about parking or something, right? So then we'd get back to and be like, you got a call and we charged you 50 bucks. So like, no, I can't pay you for that. Like, that was one of my current customers. So now the reality is they were getting loads of advertising and that was really driving the growth for their business, but they didn't want to pay for the call. So then I was like, that's not working. We have to do something else. Then we paid pay for click, which was we put ads on your page and when someone clicks it, they see you. And then people hated that too, because they're like, my mum just told me she's been like clicking on the link, right? Because she's like looking at my business. And my mum probably just cost me 5 bucks because she said she clicked it 10 times. And like, can you take that off my bill? So people hated the clicks. And then one day we just brought in a head of operations, Geoff Donaker. And by this point, by the way, I had like 2 salespeople working for me that I'd hired. And so it was me and two other people. We were calling these companies, signing these contracts. And one day I just had this epiphany. I was like, we should just pay for the ads that are viewed, not the ads that are clicked. In other words, pay for impressions to the ads. So if I tell you, I've put your ad in front of 500 people when they were looking for sushi this month, right? That you don't mind paying for because there's no action involved, but you're like, whoa, it's a big number. You put me in front of 500 people. I'll pay you 200 bucks for that. No problem. Essentially impression-based advertising. And I went to our COO and I was like, I think we should try this. He was like, if you want to give it a go. And I wrote up a contract and started selling it that day. And that is that format, that model now has a billion dollars revenue running through Yelp. So basically they took that model, like I switched it to impression-based advertising. And that was what was right for local. And our metrics were amazing. We're actually able to charge a lot more than we could in the previous two models. And I built out the sales team to about 20 people. Through that process, I got hooked, basically. Like I realized I love selling during that role. I would never have walked into sales, I think, unless everyone had gone, you have to do it. And I dreaded it, but I got really hooked on it. I love the adrenaline of it. I love hunting down these deals and I love like what you can learn from customers when you're selling. You can learn what they need and you can evolve your business model. So I love that flywheel and that's kind of what I've been doing ever since. But I built out a team of 20 people, so I got to learn management, essentially by just doing it at Yelp and building out that team.    Nate:  Next, I asked Bob how he developed his theory of leadership.    Bob:  I actually developed it really early on. You know, I mentioned earlier I'd been starting things since I was about 10 years old. And what's fascinated me between the age of like 10 and maybe, you know, my early 20s, I love the idea of creating stuff with people where no one gets paid. And here's why. These are charities and nonprofits and stuff, right? But I realized really early, if I can lead and motivate in a way where people want to contribute, even though they're not getting paid, and we can create stuff together, if I can learn that aspect, like management in that sense, then if I'm one day paying people, I'm going to get like, I'm going to, we're all going to be so much more effective, essentially, right? Like the organization is going to be so much more effective. And that is a concept I still work with today. Yes, we pay everyone quite well at Quid who works at Quid, right? Like we pay at or above market rate. But I never think about that. I never, ever ask for anything or work with people in a way that I feel they need to do it because that's their job ever. I just erased that from my mindset. I've never had that in my mindset. I always work with people with like, with gratitude and and in a way where I'm like, well, I'll try and make it fun and like help them see the meaning in the work, right? Like help them understand why it's an exciting thing to work on or a, why it's right for them, how it connects to their goals and their interests and why it's, you know, fun to contribute, whether it's to a client or to an area of technology or whatever we're working on. It's like, so yeah, I haven't really, I haven't, I mean, you guys might have read books on this, but I haven't really seen that idea articulated in quite the way that I think about it. And because I didn't read it in a book, I just kind of like stumbled across it as a kid. But that's, but I learned because I practiced it for 10 years before I even ended up in the US, when I started managing teams at Yelp, I found that I was very effective as a manager and a leader because I didn't take for granted that, you know, people had to do it because it was their job. I thought of ways to make the environment fun and make the connections between the different team members fun and teach them things and have there be like a culture of success and winning and sharing in the results of the wins together. And I suppose this did play out a little bit financially in my career because, although we pay people well at Yelp, we're kind of a somewhat mature business now. But in the early days of Yelp and in the early days of Quid, I never competed on pay. You know, when you're starting a company, it's a really bad idea to try and compete on pay. You have to, I went into every hiring conversation all the way through my early days at Yelp, as well as through the early days at Quid, like probably the first nearly 10 years at Quid. And every time I interviewed people, I would say early on, this isn't going to be where you earn the most money. I'm not going to be able to pay you market rate. You're going to earn less here than you could elsewhere. However, this is what I can offer you, right? Like whether then I make a culture that's about like helping learning. Like we always had a book like quota at Quid. If you want to buy books to read in your free time, I don't care what the title is, we'll give you money to buy books. And the reality is a book's like 10 bucks or 20 bucks, right? No one spends much on books, but that was one of the perks. I put together these perks so that we were paying often like half of what you could get in the market for the same role, but you're printing like reasons to be there that aren't about the money. Now, it doesn't work for everybody, you know, that's as in every company doesn't, but that's just what played out. And that's really important in the early days. You've got to be so efficient. And then once you start bringing in the money, then you can start moving up your rates and obviously pay people market rate. But early on, you've got to find ways to be really, really, really efficient and really lean. And you can't pay people market rate in the early days. I mean, people kind of expect that going into early stage companies, but I was particularly aggressive on that front. But that was just because I suppose it was in my DNA that like, I will try and give you other reasons to work here, but it's not going to be, it's not going to be for the money.    Nate:  Next, I asked Bob how he got from Yelp to Quid and how he knew it was time to launch his own company.    Bob:  Yeah, like looking back, if I'd made sort of the smart decision from a financial standpoint and from a, you know, career standpoint, I suppose you'd say, I would have just stayed put. if you're in a rocket ship and it's growing and you've got a senior role and you get to, you've got, you've earned the license to work on whatever you want. Like Yelp wanted me to move to Phoenix and create their first remote sales team. They wanted, I was running customer success at the time and I'd set up all those systems. Like there was so much to do. Yelp was only like three or four years old at the time, and it was clearly a rocket ship. And you know, I could have learned a lot more like from Yelp in that, like I could have seen it all the way through to IPO and, setting up remote teams and hiring hundreds of people, thousands of people eventually. So I, but I made the choice to leave relatively early and start my own thing. Just coming back to this idea we talked about in the session earlier today, I I always want to work on the forefront of whatever's going on, like the most important thing happening in our time. And I felt I knew what was next. I could kind of see what was next, which was applying AI to analyze the world's text, which was clear to me by about 2008, like that was going to be as big as the internet. That's kind of how I felt about it. And I told people that, and I put that in articles, and I put it in talks that are online that you can go watch. You know, there's one on my website from 10 years ago where I'd already been in the space for five or six years. You can go watch it and see what I was saying in 2015. So fortunately, I documented this because it sounds a bit, you know, unbelievable given what's just happened with large language models and open AI. But it was clear to me where things were going around 2008. And I just wanted to work on what was next, basically. I wanted to apply neural networks and natural language processing to massive text sets like all the world's media, all the world's social media. And yeah, I suppose whenever I've seen what's going to happen next, like with social network, going to Yelp, like seeing what was going to happen with social networking, going to building Yelp, and then seeing this observation about AI and going and doing Quid, it's not, it doesn't feel like a choice to me. It's felt like, well, just what I have to do. And regardless of whether that's going to be more work, harder work, less money, et cetera, it's just how I'm wired, I guess. And I'm kind of, I see it now. Like I see what's next now. And I'll probably just keep doing this. But I was really too early or very, very early, as you can probably see, to be trying to do that at like 2008, 2009, seven or eight years before OpenAI was founded, I was just banging my head against the wall for nearly a decade with no one that would listen. So even the best companies in the world and the biggest investors in the world, again, I won't name them, But it was so hard to raise money. It was so hard to get anyone to watch it that, after a time, I actually started to think I was wrong. Like after doing it for like 10 years and it hadn't taken off, I just started to think like, I was so wrong. I spent a year or two before ChatGPT took off. I'd got to a point where I'd spent like a year or two just thinking, how could my instinct be so wrong about what was going to play out here? How could we not have unlocked the world's written information at this point? And I started to think maybe it'll never happen, you know, and like I was simply wrong, which of course you could be wrong on these things. And then, you know, ChatGPT and OpenAI like totally blew up, and it's been bigger than even I imagined. And I couldn't have told you exactly which technical breakthrough was going to result in it. Like no one knew that large language models were going to be the unlock. But I played with everything available to try and unlock that value. And as soon as large language models became promising in 2016, we were on it, like literally the month that the Google BERT paper came out, because we were like knocking on that door for many years beforehand. And we were one of the teams that were like, trying to unlock that value. That's why many of the early Quid people are very senior at OpenAI and went on to take what they learned from Quid and then apply it in an OpenAI environment, which I'm very proud of. I'm very proud of those people, and it's amazing to see what they've done.    Nate:  That concludes Chapter 2. In Chapter 3, we discuss AI and social media. The first question was about anxiety and AI.    Bob:  Maybe I'll just focus on the anxiety and the issues first of all. A lot's been said on it. I suppose what would be my headlines? I think that one big area of concern is how it changes the job market. And I think the practical thing on that is if you can learn to be the bridge, then you're putting yourself in a really valuable position, right? Because if you can bridge this technology into businesses in a way that makes change and improvements, then you are moving yourself to a skill set that's going to continue to be really valuable. So that's just a practical matter. One of the executives I work with in a major US company likes to say will doctors become redundant because of AI? And he says, no, doctors won't be redundant, but doctors that don't use AI will be redundant. And that's kind of where we are, right? It's like, we're still going to need a person, but if you refuse, if you're not using it, you're going to fall behind and like that is going to put you at risk. So I think there is some truth to that little kind of illustrative story. There will be massive numbers of jobs that are no longer necessary. And the history of technology is full of these examples. Coming back to like 5,000 years ago, think of all the times that people invented stuff that made the prior roles redundant, right? In London, before electricity was discovered and harnessed, one of the biggest areas of employment was for the people that walked the streets at night, lighting the candles and gas lights that lit London. That was a huge breakthrough, right? You could put fire in the street, you put gas in the street and you lit London. Without that, you couldn't go out at night in London and like it would have been an absolute nightmare. The city wouldn't be what it is. But that meant there were like thousands of people whose job it was to light those candles and then go round in the morning when the sun came up and blow them out. So when the light bulb was invented, can you imagine the uproar in London where all these jobs were going to be lost, thousands of jobs were going to be lost. by people that no longer are needed to put out these lights. There were riots, right? There was massive social upheaval. The light bulb threatened and wiped out those jobs. How many people in London now work lighting gas lamps and lighting candles to light the streets, right? Nobody. That was unthinkable. How could you possibly take away those jobs? You know, people actually smashed these light bulbs when the first electric light bulbs were put into streets. People just went and smashed them because they're like, we are not going to let this technology take our jobs. And I can give you 20 more examples like that throughout history, right? Like you could probably think of loads yourselves. Even the motor car, you know, so many people were employed to look after horses, right? Think of all the people that were employed in major cities around the world, looking after horses and caring for them and building the carts and everything. And suddenly you don't need horses anymore. Like that wiped out an entire industry. But what did it do? It created the automobile industry, which has been employing massive numbers of people ever since. And the same is true for, you know, like what have light bulbs done for the quality of our lives? You know, we don't look at them now and think that's an evil technology that wiped out loads of jobs. We go, thank goodness we've got light bulbs. So the nature of technology is that it wipes out roles, and it creates roles. And I just don't see AI being any different. Humans have no limit to like, seem to have no limit to the comfort they want to live with and the things that we want in our lives. And those things are still really expensive and we don't, we're nowhere near satisfied. So like, we're going to keep driving forward. We're going to go, oh, now we can do that. Great. I can use AI, I can make movies and I can, you know, I don't know, like there's just loads of stuff that people are going to want to do with AI. Like, I mean, using the internet, how much time do we spend on these damn web forms, just clicking links and buttons and stuff? Is that fun? Do we even want to do that? No. Like we're just wasting hours of our lives every week, like clicking buttons. Like if we have agents, they can do that for us. So we have, I think we're a long way from like an optimal state where work is optional and we can just do the things that humans want to do with their time. And so, but that's the journey that I see us all along, you know. So anyway, that's just my take on AI and employment, both practically, what can you do about it? Be the bridge, embrace it, learn it, jump in. And also just like in a long arc, I'm not saying in the short term, there won't be riots and there won't be lots of people out of work. And I mean, there will be. But when we look back again, like I often think about what time period are we talking about? Right? People often like, well, what will it do to jobs? Next year, like there'll certain categories that will become redundant. But are we thinking about this in a one year period or 100 year period? Like it's worth asking yourself, what timeframe am I talking about? Right? And I always try and come back to the 100 year view at a minimum when talking about technology change. If it's better for humanity in 100 years, then we should probably work on it and make it happen, right? If we didn't do that, we wouldn't have any light bulbs in our house. Still be lighting candles?    Nate:  Next was a question about social media, fragmented attention, and how it drives isolation.    Bob:  Well, it's obviously been very problematic, particularly in the last five or six years. So TikTok gained success in the United States and around the world around five or six years ago with a completely new model for how to put content in front of people. And what powered it? AI. So TikTok is really an AI company. And the first touch point that most of us had with AI was actually through TikTok. It got so good at knowing the network of all possible content and knowing if you watch this, is the next thing we should show you to keep you engaged. And they didn't care if you were friends with someone or not. Your network didn't matter. Think about Facebook. Like for those of you that were using Facebook, maybe say 2010, right? Like 15 years ago. What did social media look like? You had a profile page, you uploaded photos of yourself and photos of your friends, you linked between them. And when you logged into Facebook, you basically just browsing people's profiles and seeing what they got up to at the weekend. That was social media 15 years ago. Now imagine, now think what you do when you're on Instagram and you're swiping, right? Or you go to TikTok and you're swiping. First of all, let's move to videos, which is a lot more compelling, short videos. And most of the content has nothing to do with your friends. So there was a massive evolution in social media that happened five or six years ago, driven by TikTok. And all the other companies had to basically adopt the same approach or they would have fallen too far behind. So it forced Meta to evolve Instagram and Facebook to be more about attention. Like there's always about attention, that's the nature of media. But these like AI powered ways to keep you there, regardless of what they're showing you. And that turned out to be a bit of a nightmare because it unleashed loads of content without any sense of like what's good for the people who are watching it, right? That's not the game they're playing. They're playing attention and then they're not making decisions about what might be good for you or not. So we went through like a real dip, I think, in social media, went through a real dip and we're still kind of in it, right, trying to find ways out of it. So regulation will ultimately be the savior, which it is in any new field of tech. Regulation is necessary to keep tech to have positive impact for the people that it's meant to be serving. And that's taken a long time to successfully put in place for social media, but we are getting there. I mean, Australia just banned social media for everyone under 16. You may have seen that. Happened, I think, earlier this year. France is putting controls around it. The UK is starting to put more controls around it. So, you know, gradually countries are voters are making it a requirement to put regulation around social media use. In terms of just practical things for you all, as you think about your own social media use, I think it's very healthy to think about how long you spend on it and find ways to just make it a little harder to access, right? Like none of us feel good when we spend a lot of time on our screens. None of us feel good when we spend a lot of time on social media. It feels good at the time because it's given us those quick dopamine hits. But then afterwards, we're like, man, I spent an hour, and I just like, I lost an hour down like the Instagram wormhole. And then we don't feel good afterwards. It affects us sleep negatively. And yeah, come to the question that was, posted, can create a sense of isolation or negative feelings of self due to comparison to centrally like models and actors and all these people that are like putting out content, right? Kind of super humans. So I think just finding ways to limit it and asking yourself what's right for you and then just sticking to that. And if that means coming off it for a month or coming off it for a couple of months, then, give that a try. Personally, I don't use it much at all. I'll use it mostly because friends will share like a funny meme or something and you just still want to watch it because it's like it's sent to you by a friend. It's a way of interacting. Like my dad sends me funny stuff from the internet, and I want to watch it because it's a way of connecting with him. But then I set a timer. I like to use this timer. It's like just a little physical device. I know we've all got one on our phones, but I like to have one on my desk. And so if I'm going into something, whether it's like I'm going to do an hour on my inbox, my e-mail inbox, or I'm going to, you know, open up Instagram and just swipe for a bit, I'll just set a timer, you know, and just keep me honest, like, okay, I'm going to give myself 8 minutes. I'm not going to give myself any more time on there. So there's limited it. And then I put all these apps in a folder on the second screen of my phone. So I can't easily access them. I don't even see them because they're on the second screen of my phone in a folder called social. So to access any of the apps, I have to swipe, open the folder, and then open the app. And just moving them to a place where I can't see them has been really helpful. I only put the healthy apps on my front page of my phone.    Nate:  Next was a question about where Bob expects AI to be in 20 years and whether there are new levels to be unlocked.    Bob:  No one knows. Right? Like what happens when you take a large language model from a trillion nodes to like 5 trillion nodes? No one knows. It's, this is where the question comes in around like consciousness, for example. Will it be, will it get to a point where we have to consider this entity conscious? Fiercely debated, not obvious at all. Will it become, it's already smarter than, well, it already knows more than any human on the planet. So in terms of its knowledge access, it knows more. In terms of most capabilities, most, you know, cognitive capabilities, it's already more capable than any single human on the planet. But there are certain aspects of consciousness, well, certain cognitive functions that humans currently are capable of that AI is not currently capable of, but we might expect some of those to be eaten into as these large language models get better. And it might be that these large language models have cognitive capabilities that humans don't have and never could have, right? Like levels of strategic thinking, for example, that we just can't possibly mirror. And that's one of the things that's kind of, you know, a concern to nations and to people is that, you know, we could end up with something on the planet that is a lot smarter than any one of us or even all of us combined. So in general, when something becomes more intelligent, it seeks to dominate everything else. That is a pattern. You can see that throughout all life. Nothing's ever got smarter and not sought to dominate. And so that's concerning, especially because it's trained on everything we've ever said and done. So I don't know why that pattern would be different. So that, you know, that's interesting. And and I think in terms of, so the part of that question, which is whole new areas of capability to be unlocked, really fascinating area to look at is not so much the text now, because everything I've written is already in these models, right? So the only way they can get more information is by the fact that like, loads of social networks are creating more information and so on. It's probably pretty duplicitous at this point. That's why Elon bought Twitter, for example, because he wanted the data in Twitter, and he wants that constant access to that data. But how much smarter can they get when they've already got everything ever written? However, large language models, of course, don't just apply to text. They apply to any information, genetics, photography, film, every form of information can be harnessed by these large language models and are being harnessed. And one area that's super interesting is robotics. So the robot is going to be as nimble and as capable as the training data that goes into it. And there isn't much robotic training data yet. But companies are now collecting robotic training data. So in the coming years, robots are going to get way more capable, thanks to large language models, but only as this data gets collected. So in other words, like language is kind of reaching its limits in terms of new capabilities, but think of all the other sensor types that could feed into large language models and you can start to see all kinds of future capabilities, which is why everyone suddenly got so interested in personal transportation vehicles and personal robotics, which is why like Tesla share price is up for example, right? Because Elon's committed now to kind of moving more into robotics with Tesla as a company. And there are going to be loads of amazing robotics companies that come out over the next like 10 or 20 years.    Nate:  And that brings us to the end of this episode with Bob Goodson. Like I mentioned in the intro, there were so many great nuggets from Bob. Such great insight on managing our careers, building companies, and the evolving impact of AI and social media. In summary, try to be at the intersection of new power and real problems. Seek to inspire rather than just transact, and be thoughtful about how to use social media and AI. All simple ideas, please, take them seriously.   

As a property management business owner, how do you find the best people to build an effective sales team? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow Podcast, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Bob Lachance, founder of REVA Global, to talk about how you can utilize virtual assistants for lead generation and growth. You'll Learn [01:22] Identifying a Need in the Real Estate Industry [08:53] How to Utilize VAs in Your Business [14:35] Creating a Hiring System in Your Business [19:30] Using VAs for Lead Generation  Tweetables “When marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up.” “Over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch.” “People want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like.” “Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Bob: Virtual assistants are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget.  [00:00:12] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities daily variety unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Jason: Now let's get into the show. And today's guest is Bob. Do you say Lachance?  [00:01:18] Jason: Lachance. Yep. Lachance.  [00:01:20] Jason: I nailed it. All right. So Bob, great to have you on the show. And, Bob, you are helping people discover the top marketing channels that can maximize lead generation when working with VAs. And so we're going to chat a bit about that today before we get into that, tell everybody a little bit about you, how you got into entrepreneurism and what led you to what you're doing now.  [00:01:43] Bob: Yeah. So right now I'll just start right now. I have a real estate investment company as well. And I have a virtual assistant staffing company, so I use my VAs in my own business. So I have a rental portfolio as well as a buy sell fix flip company here in Connecticut, doing a couple of different states, but I started back about 20, 21 years ago now back in 2004. [00:02:06] Bob: I played professional hockey prior to that for eight years and then got into real estate. And you know, from real estate, helped start an education program while I was, you know, working on properties. I did a lot of, you know, fixed flip wholesaling, all that kind of good stuff. This is, again, I'm dating myself, but this is back in 2004. [00:02:25] Bob: And through the process, when I helped start this education company there was a huge need in the industry, just like you, right? You see a need out there. And I'm a lot like you on that side of it, helping people and figuring out, you know, where they could. Create passive income or income in general. [00:02:42] Bob: So, during the coaching program, while I was in it, I realized there was a huge need. Majority of the students that I coached didn't have the time to actually put into their real estate business because they were either working part time or full time. They just needed to, you know, they needed help. And for years, upon years, I was looking for a solution for that. [00:03:01] Bob: Whether it was a product I didn't know back then, again, this is going back from 2007 to 2013. I didn't know there was any services out there, like what virtual assistants were. And then I got introduced back in 2013 what a virtual assistant was. You know what this could help my business So I hired my first one and then light bulb went on like, you know what we could turn this into a business I could take the back end of what it helps create which is the real estate education company And our students could use it to help them grow their business help scale help, you know, get your time and freedom back. So launched it in 2014 and then fast forward today you know 10 years later i've been in business for a while and I also have like I said my real estate investment company  [00:03:45] Jason: Nice. [00:03:46] Jason: Nice. All right. And so let's get into the topic at hand. So, we're going to talk a little bit about leveraging virtual assistants. And so how did you kind of start doing this yourself?  [00:03:58] Bob: Yeah well, when I first got into this, like I said I door knocked first, we didn't have the opportunity to have, you know, virtual assistants do some outbound stuff. [00:04:07] Bob: And I didn't understand, you know, I didn't understand what outsourcing was when I first started. It was just me. I had an individual who was my business partner back in the day, but first year I door knocked. I went from door to door, individuals that were behind on payments. So it wasn't the easiest job in the world, but it allowed you to understand how to build a business from ground up. [00:04:29] Bob: I think that was very important back then. So nowadays you can have virtual assistants do that, whether it's you know, cold calling, whether it's responding to direct mail, whether it's text messaging, whether it's social media, whether it's going out to, you know, Facebook marketplace and going right direct to seller, you also have rarely used now Craigslist, of course, but there's different ways to acquire and use your virtual assistant to do that. So that's just, again, a long and short.  [00:04:54] Jason: So go ahead and tell people a little bit about your company and what you help people do. And I'm really curious because this is usually a difficult thing for business owners to outsource. [00:05:05] Jason: Usually they'll outsource some of the lowest level stuff, and it's usually not towards growth, lead generation, outreach, stuff like that. Those pieces can be really difficult to get dialed in or to do effectively. And so, tell us a little bit about REVA global? Okay. Yeah.  [00:05:22] Bob: So, you know, like I said, we started back in 2014. [00:05:26] Bob: Like I said, I've been doing this for a long time and just to fast forward to what that looks like today and working with property managers, because obviously the individuals that are on your podcast here, I'll speak to them. And I know, you know, many people that also buy and hold also probably do fix and flip or also may wholesale, but it's kind of the same concept, but there's a lot of different tasks within it that virtual assistants can do. [00:05:50] Bob: So what I did is I broke up all the stuff that our VA is doing in my own business because you know, many individuals that are listening to this will relate to a company like ours because like I said, we have a real estate investment company, but we also use our VA's which I think is pretty cool. I think Nowadays, it's very important as a service provider like myself to use it to make sure it works so I think that's a pretty unique thing that we actually have. But what we do, we have virtual assistants that acquire, we call them like a department of acquisition. So if you're looking for leads, you could do cold calling, you do text blasting, you could do lead management. You know, lead management, a lot of us, I'm just like, you will have all these leads in your database, but if you don't get ahold of them the first time, your marketing is going to consistently go out. So when marketing consistently goes out, what we find is all those leads end up piling up. And if you try to reach out to them the first time, you know you have a very small percentage that are actually going to pick up the phone. Right? So you need somebody then that will continue to follow up on those leads. [00:06:57] Bob: And a national statistic is over 70% of all sales never happen on the first touch, right? So you have to continue. And I think that's probably 90 or 95 percent nowadays. So that's what we find in our office. And I know a lot of our clients say the same thing. So that number could change a little bit depending on what you read, but our experience in our office is over 90%. [00:07:21] Bob: So what I mean by that is the first touch, whether it's direct mail call or a cold call, whatever you do for direct mail or whatever you do for marketing, that first touch will not equate to a contract, so you're going to have somebody that's continuing to follow up with those individuals. Very important. [00:07:39] Bob: I wish I would have understood that stat when I first started real estate. But again, you know, you learn over time. Another stuff. If you look at other tasks as well, that works very well is marketing. Right social media management because you look at any type of business if you don't have marketing It's very difficult brand awareness, right people want to do business with people they see, feel, touch, and like so you need to make sure that you're out there You're out in the public's eye. [00:08:05] Bob: I think that's very important. I know you guys do a great job of that Jason on the marketing side of always being out there because I see in a lot of different places everywhere I'm looking online. So whoever's doing your stuff man, great job. So you're doing a fantastic job on that side of it. And then you go into leasing so if we look at property management you know driving leads is one thing, but you also have to, you know, close them. [00:08:27] Bob: So if it's you, me, or whoever's the one on the phone locking up those deals, it then goes to once you own them, you got leasing, you got move in, move out, you have collection, you have evictions, you have maintenance, you have accounts receivable, you have accounts payable, bookkeeping, accounting etc that fall underneath that property management umbrella, that virtual assistants are phenomenal to actually take on those tasks for you.  [00:08:52] Jason: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the typical process for somebody that could use some help from a company like yours? How do you engage them? [00:09:01] Jason: What's onboarding like? How does that work?  [00:09:03] Bob: I think for anybody who's looking to scale or looking to just get help in their business. You know, here in Connecticut, it's pretty interesting because if you're looking to hire someone in house, you start looking at what's going on with the world and what's going on with the economy in state of Connecticut, minimum wage is up to $15.69. [00:09:24] Bob: So when you start looking at that I know in my area, if I try to hire someone at minimum wage, they don't have a four year college degree. That's just not the highest level individual that you'd want working in your office. And so now you start looking at those things and what's happening around the country. [00:09:42] Bob: Virtual assistants are very are a big part of anyone's business. In my opinion today, I think you got to start looking at that because small businesses, a lot of times, especially when we start, we are on a tight budget. Right. And so for us to start to scale or start to grow or start to hire, we really need to look at what's going out, meaning out of our pocket. [00:10:04] Bob: So it's very important. So they first look at number one, what can we afford as small business owners? If we look at that number, now we start looking at what tasks in our business do not put money in our pocket. Right? And if you look in your world, meaning the property management world, it is a lot of the tasks like leasing, like taking calls from tenants, move in, move outs, eviction process when you're calling attorneys back and forth. What does that look like? There's just a lot of back and forth, right? Maintenance concerns. You get those all the time and those are the things that burn up your time. Your phone doesn't stop ringing. [00:10:44] Bob: So if your husband or wife wants to go on vacation with you and your phone doesn't stop ringing. That's going to put a lot of stress and a lot of challenges in your personal life to where, especially when you continue to grow. You have to put more systems and processes in your business. You know, if you had one house, that's one headache. [00:11:02] Bob: You had two, that's two headaches. You have a hundred, you have a hundred potential headaches that if you don't want to take those headaches on yourself, it's always good to have somebody else take those headaches before it gets to you.  [00:11:15] Jason: Yeah. Property management can definitely be death by a thousand cuts. [00:11:18] Bob: Yep.  [00:11:18] Jason: Yep. And if you get it really well dialed in though, yeah, it can be a really great residual income business model.  [00:11:25] Bob: So Very good. Very good. Well, two sides of it, right? You buy, right? You have an equity play there, right? And if you don't have to deal with the headache, you get the positive income, you get tax advantages, things like that. [00:11:36] Bob: So, I mean, I'm a huge advocate of buying and holding and property management because over time, the more, like you said, the more properties you actually hold, the bigger your income grows.  [00:11:48] Jason: Nice. Yeah. Cool. So, so I love this. There's lots of low level tasks. It does get really expensive trying to afford staff and team members and you don't want the cheapest or lowest level or worst people. [00:12:02] Jason: You know, in the United States representing your business. And so, sometimes you can get people at a fraction of the price point that have a lot more education that are a lot better. And so when you, any of the roles that are able to be done virtually, you open yourself up to a global marketplace rather than just your local city. [00:12:22] Jason: And so, yeah, so there's definitely advantages. So my entire team are virtual and I've got team members in various areas, Canada, Philippines. Egypt gosh, I don't know where else like all over the place and I've hired people over the past and just about everywhere. So yeah. And so, and so I'm not limited, so I'm able to just go find the best and I'm able to figure out, okay what can kind of fit into our budget and what can we afford in order to do that. [00:12:49] Bob: Right. And to your point, to get back to what that looks like, I mean, anyone in this world could go out and go source for their own candidates. You know, we set up a very unique system process. We have a whole sourcing and recruiting team. All my virtual assistants are in the Philippines. We set up a sourcing and recruiting team out of the Philippines, so they're Looking through, you know, thousands of resumes every single month sifting through and we're getting the best of those Resumes that come in as soon as they pass then they go through an interview process. [00:13:22] Bob: They pass the interview process They go to our training team and they train for about a month on various tasks property management tasks lead generation tasks, etc And then once they actually get to the end of that stage, they do another test and a lot of individuals do not pass our testing phase. And that's a positive thing because, you know, that's a way to kind of weed out the individuals that wouldn't make it, yeah, very good. [00:13:48] Bob: So, after that goes to our placements team and our placements team, it's kind of like match. com. They look at exactly what you're, you know, what the tasks are. And we do DISC profiling, things like that, and predictive index. And we look at the tasks that they're good at, and we match them exactly up with the client and the tasks that they're looking for. [00:14:05] Bob: So for instance, if someone's looking for a bookkeeper, you're not going to give them a profile that's a sales profile, right? You're going to, you're going to give them the correct profile. You put them together, they go through an interview process, and they pick the best candidate that fits within them so after that, it goes to our operations team. We have what we call a client service manager that helps manage the relationship between you and your va, so it's very streamlined. [00:14:27] Bob: You know, we tried every different business model there is out there and the model that we have right now seems to be the best model.  [00:14:34] Jason: Nice. Yeah, I always recommend if you're a property manager like watching this or listening if you don't have a really solid hiring process you have not like tested embedded and experimented with, then the best initial way to do hiring is to leverage other companies' hiring processes. Go and work with a company and there's lots of different companies I've worked with over the years to get people on my team, and then eventually we've built a really good process internally, but In the beginning, I do think every business eventually needs their own hiring system, but if you don't have a great robust hiring system that you can get candidates consistently, that you know are a good culture fit, a good skill fit for the role, a good personality fit for the role then you need to go leverage somebody else's hiring system. [00:15:20] Jason: So I would highly recommend, especially if you're going to dabble with VAs, especially in the Philippines or any other area, that you want to not be dealing with all the riff raff and the challenges and everything else. You want to have some help with this. So I highly recommend you leverage somebody else's hiring system. And they're going to help you not waste as much time and money for sure.  [00:15:46] Bob: And that's one of the things that's a great very great point because when you're first starting out or you're smaller. The best thing to do is learn off of others, right? [00:15:55] Bob: It's you'll walk through a company like mine. You say, "wow, what a great system." You know what? Document what we do and then implement it in your own business if you start growing. I think that is a fantastic idea, Jason, for that. Because, you know, you look at the biggest companies in the world. [00:16:09] Bob: They didn't just, you know, start being the biggest companies in the world or that, you know, it doesn't, you don't have to be the biggest, but they learned from somebody and they started implementing and they tested, you don't always get it right the first time. But after a while you will hone in and get that right. [00:16:24] Bob: So I 100 percent agree whether it's with our company or anybody else. Like I said, anyone could do anything themselves. It all depends on what you need help with at the beginning.  [00:16:34] Jason: Yeah. And it also depends on how long do you want to suck until you figure it out.  [00:16:40] Bob: That's true.  [00:16:41] Jason: Like so if you want to collapse time, I highly recommend. Because I know when I started experimenting with hiring in the Philippines. Like there's just things you don't even think to ask like we had to ask like where are you accessing the internet? [00:16:53] Jason: Is this like at a cafe at your home? Is it reliable? What kind of computer do you have? You know, we needed to be able to you know there's just so many little quality controls we had to implement in order to figure out if they would be a good candidate, I mean, I've had team members in the Philippines with chickens going off constantly in the background and roosters crowing and like all sorts of stuff and their internet going up and down and so you know, there's there's a lot of quality controls that I think need to be put in place because it's not America. We have a little bit more stability in our infrastructure and in our internet connections and everything else. [00:17:29] Jason: And so, and then, you know, it helps to have somebody that manages the relationship like your company, because a lot of times, in that culture, they can be a little bit shy, I think at times, or a little bit nervous about displeasing their employer or giving honest feedback. And so they tend to ghost or disappear. [00:17:49] Jason: People have talked about people in the Philippines doing this. And so having somebody manage that relationship as a liaison can help improve the results that you're getting from team members. And but the cost savings are awesome. I mean, it's like a third to a half of what you would get and you can get college educated people, you get people that have like lots and lots of experience and skill, and they are able to be paid very well for their area. [00:18:14] Jason: And for you, it's seems like a steal. So.  [00:18:17] Bob: And that's one of the things that we pride ourselves on. I mean, you nailed it. You touched upon all of that. You know, we make sure there's backup. We make sure there's the right internet connection, the right computer system, etc. So to your point that is definitely something for everyone listening to this to look at because the vetting process, that's what I found the most tiring. When I first hired my first VA, I got it wrong a lot, to be honest with you. And I didn't ask any of those questions. And then it's kind of funny to talk about the rooster. That happened to me. And that was before I actually owned the company. And then I started my company. That's one of the things I'm like, all right, we have to listen for, right? [00:18:52] Bob: What's your background, what's your surrounding, right to your point. And then you start learning over time. And then the more interviews you go on, the more stuff you learn, right? Like you said, you don't learn or you don't know all this stuff until you actually go through the process. And I think it's important for you to understand if you're going to do this, know that you're going to have a lot of pain up front when you hire at the beginning, right? And then you work with a company like mine and you'll realize you didn't go through that pain, but then you want to go hire someone. And then you decide to then throw your hat in the ring and do this yourself. [00:19:25] Bob: 100%. The questions to ask, just like Jason said up front, those are some of the things to look at.  [00:19:30] Jason: You know, based on the stuff that you said, I there's a lot of. Property management targeted, you know, VA companies leveraging talent in the Philippines, but it seems like one of the things you brought up that seems to be unique to what you guys do that's different than most of the others, or maybe all of them is the focus on client acquisition, lead gen, and on the sales side of things. [00:19:53] Jason: Most are usually focused on trying to find VAs that are more like executive assistants or that are going to do tasks and be told what to do rather than people that you can trust to be the initial connection and face of your business.  [00:20:08] Bob: You know what it's interesting, again, it's interesting you say that because I've been in this business for about 21 years, real estate investing. [00:20:14] Bob: And we realized over time that If you don't have, you talk about acquisition and lead generation, if you don't have leads for any of our businesses, we are going to struggle to make ends meet, right? So you have to figure out a way that's going to drive in leads to your business. I mean, I know for me, I'll just give you a perfect example. [00:20:32] Bob: When I door knocked, I went door to door to door every day from 10 a. m. to 3 p. m. But when I go home, I'd get that list and I would skip trace it back in the day You'd use 401. com white pages, and I would look for the best possible phone number for that individual then I would call. So when I got home, I would skip trace then I'll call until seven at night until I had to eat dinner with the family. But over time, I was beat up. [00:20:55] Bob: I don't recommend doing that anymore. You don't have to do that anymore because you can hand over those tasks over to a virtual assistant. And they're the ones that are going to be doing the outreach for you. And again, I do recommend you should try it because you'll realize you know, open your mind and understand that outsourcing that task will really give your energy back and bring your success up. [00:21:16] Bob: You may feel, well, I don't think anyone could do that task better than me. We all said, I know you said it before, Jason, I've said it. We all feel that way. And if you think about it, if they do 80 percent as good as you, that's a huge win. Now you get to do other tasks. That's going to drive business and revenue to your business. [00:21:36] Jason: Even if they do it half as well as you, but they're getting. You know, half the result and you're able to hire two or three of them and not do that work. Like it's easily time and money well spent. So it's consistency, right?  [00:21:48] Bob: It's all the consistency. If you have something, a task that gets on a consistent manner, consistent basis every single day, you will get results by the end of the week. [00:21:58] Jason: Yeah. So what are kind of SLA you know, you know, what do you sort of think are the metrics or KPIs for as an appointment setter or somebody trying to help, you know, maybe reaching out directly to owners or maybe reaching out to schedule, I don't know, appointments with real estate agents to build referral relationships. [00:22:17] Jason: How many calls should they make a day? If this is their full time gig and how many appointments do you think they should be booking?  [00:22:22] Bob: Well, it depends. So if you have, so for instance, if you have a, you know, triple line dialer, as an example, it depends if you're, you know, calling just on a, you know, on your phone and just dial like this, but there's a lot of very good technology out there. [00:22:36] Bob: You got mojo dialer, you have things like that actually are very good. You may have a company that you refer, Jason, that you could tell everyone but you're probably calling if you're full time, anywhere between 400 and 600 dials using that dialer, not manual dialing. You're probably going to hit about a hundred, 150 if you're manually dialing. [00:22:57] Bob: And that's a day. Yeah. But if you have a triple line dialer, you're going to hit on average 400 to 600 and this is just what I've seen through the years that I've been doing this. You may have a technology that burns through a thousand calls and then you're going to be listening to me saying, well, Bob, you're a hundred percent wrong. [00:23:13] Bob: I'm just telling you what I see on a daily basis and what comes out of, you know, mine and my client's offices.  [00:23:19] Jason: I think yeah, even if they're doing it manually, if they can get a hundred to two hundred calls a day and get two appointments booked a day, like, so they're getting roughly about 10 a week. [00:23:27] Jason: Like that's a solid result for an appointment setter.  [00:23:31] Bob: That's a win. That's a win. You're looking at, if you're looking for, so we call them ITS's in our office, interested to sell. I know other people call it different, but that's what we look for. Same exact thing. One to two per day per VA. [00:23:44] Jason: Nice. Yeah, very cool. And those listening, I'm sure all of you would love to have one or two appointments booked for you per day, and that would fill up a nice little chunk of your time and help you close some deals. So, yeah.  [00:23:57] Bob: Especially on the buy and hold side Jason. It's a lot easier to look at your numbers. [00:24:03] Bob: And I know you have a formula that you guys look at to make sure the rent and you know, what the interest rates are today, et cetera, et cetera, whatever financing you have, but it is easier on the buy and hold side to fit within your buy box, right? Rather than having to go at, you know, 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 percent of the value. [00:24:20] Bob: When you fund it out and then try to resell it. So it's a different kind of mindset. So you're very fortunate if you're going to buy and hold your buy box is usually different than somebody who's either trying to wholesale or fix and flip.  [00:24:32] Jason: Got it. So we've probably got some property management business owners listening to this. [00:24:37] Jason: And for some reason, maybe they're just crazy and they have not yet worked with DoorGrow yet, but they're like, Hey, I would like to grow, add some doors and maybe have somebody do some calls and reach out to Bob. How could they get in touch with you and how can they initiate a conversation?  [00:24:54] Bob: Well, you can check us out on our all of our social, of course, but REVA Global. R-E-V-A Global. com. If you have any specific questions, obviously for you, you could just reach me direct at bob@revaglobal.com.  [00:25:07] Jason: Awesome. Hey Bob, thanks for coming on the show. Any parting words for entrepreneurs that are struggling, they've never hired an assistant yet they, even if they've built out part of their team or an entire team already, which is ludicrous to me, but what would you say to them? [00:25:22] Bob: Well, I would say number one, get started, of course, but number two, I would say you got to set up your processes and systems and get them done consistently because if you just get success here. And then you stop doing it. Real estate's a long game. You know, like I said, I started this 21 years ago and I wish I knew what I knew now back then. [00:25:43] Bob: I would start buying properties back then because right now I'd be retired with thousands of doors and rental income of a thousand doors. But I started a little bit later.  [00:25:54] Jason: Hey, Bob, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with me on the DoorGrow show today. And I'm excited to see if you helped maybe some of our clients listening or some of the people let me know what results they get and maybe we'll have you come back on. [00:26:07] Bob: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.  [00:26:08] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're struggling to add doors, you're struggling to figure out how to grow your business. We want to help you. We want to support you. Reach out to us at DoorGrow. com. You can also join our free community at DoorGrow club. com. Go there. Answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of applicants. It's just for property management business owners And if you get inside, we'll give you some free stuff that'll help you out and help out your business. So that's it for today until next time to our mutual growth I'm, Jason Hull, and I hope you crush it. [00:26:40] Jason: Bye, everybody. [00:26:40] Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrowShow We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com Listen everyone is doing the same stuff SEO PPC pay-per-lead content social direct mail and they still struggle to grow at DoorGrow We solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business Find out more at doorgrow.com Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe until next time take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

gliding towards a crashreflections on this moment Note: This bonus episode is from my ‘a calm presence' substack about ‘short, practical essays about collapse acceptance, adaptation, response and art'. Cover photo was taken by me at Tribune Bay, Hornsby Island, BC on September 17, 2024.Friends and colleagues often ask me why I focus my energies on ‘anticipating, observing, and experiencing societal disruption and collapse' (deep adaptation forum).A good question.  Instead of societal collapse, Arno Kopecky (author of The Environmentalist's Dilemma: Promise and Peril in an Age of Climate Crisis and an upcoming guest on conscient e206), suggested to me in a September 14, 2024 email that I consider focusing on : a thriving society lens so that we're running toward something beautiful, rather than fleeing something terrible.A good point.Arno also mentions that ‘ultimately it's the same thing', e.g., that societal collapse and societal revitalisation follow essentially the same path, but I would agree that running towards something positive is more interesting (and useful than the negative). Duly noted (as they say on the Canadaland podcast).However, I have to admit that I quite often fall into collapse rabbit holes and sometimes can't see the light so I call upon guests from previous episodes, such as e165 bill crandall - art can change usBeing an artist, or making art, in the context of climate is more about being a kind of light in the darkness, making us believe in ourselves and believe in the future so that we want to endeavor to save the thing that we have, our habitat.  Some people like to say art can't change the world, but art can change us. Then we can change the world more effectively.So here's my answer to the ‘focus' question. It's a story about a story that I recorded in e202 coman poon - what are you doing with your life ? : When I first met Vanessa (Andreotti) in 2019, I think she shared this story with me about, you know, the metaphor of the plane crashed as a way of talking about the time of the great turning, so to speak, for lack of a better term. And this idea is that there is no. There is no prevention of the crime, right? If you and I, and, you know, every living thing that is on, so called, the plane is on Pachamama, Mother Earth with us, we're going through a crash. We're going through, you know, six, extinction, we're going through climate collapse, geopolitical collapse, economic collapse, all types of overlapping, interlaced cycles of destruction. And like on planes, what you can do, at best, is to get ready for a glide as opposed to a hard landing, because that means some will survive, and those that survive aren't necessarily the lucky ones. So while we're on the plane, you know, instead of putting on our noise canceling earphones, pretending that we're not in a sardine can, we could try turning to each other, saying hello. So many things can happen between the moment when we know the plane is going to crash, that there's no getting away from that and the crash itself. So my invitation is to the listeners, what are you doing? What are you doing before the crash, in this time? What are you doing with your life? How are you going to actually weave connection? Because it's still possible to operate without hope. It's absolutely imperative.‘Saying hello' is what I try to do with every ‘a calm presence' posting and also the conscient podcast - balado conscient. Saying hello in Coman's way. I don't feel doomist, defeatist or nihilistic in saying that.I don't feel like I'm being overly negative, proselytizing, virtue signalling or being self-righteous, though I have certainly done that in the past, and probably will again.I produced an episode about this:  e111 traps - what are the traps in your life?:Observer: I see a trap called proselytizing which happens when people try to teach and convince others that a particular issue of interest should be the most important thing for everyone. Me: Wait a second, I do that all the time as a climate activist and with my art and ecology podcast and… Observer :(interrupting) of course you do and well you should - no worries - but, the danger is that your work could be perceived as an effort to assert ‘moral high ground' and while this trap may be driven by a genuine passion for an issue, and you certainly are passionate about your work, it has the potential to impose onto others in a way that does not respect their own un/learning journey, and often actually has the opposite effect, pushing people away rather than inviting them in. Me: Ya, Ya, I see. Let me think about that.Observer: Sure and when this trap occurs, it can be useful to ask, for example, why do I need to teach or convince or inspire others about my learning experience? Where is this perceived need stemming from?  And if you really feel you need to bring something to the attention of others, maybe you can ask yourself: What is the most pedagogically responsible and effective thing to do so that your message can land?But this is different. It feels good to accept reality. Not good, good because it's actually awful and very painful, as we feel the disappearance of life unfold around us but for it's better to accept reality than to live in denial. It's better to undergo a lens shift and therefore see and feel things as they really are. It's better to be ready to die at any moment knowing that the truth of that moment was our final breath. Now none of this is new. Buddhism and similar spiritual practices have been teaching us this forever. So what's next?I try keep this excerpt from Robert Janes' Museums and Societal Collapse : The Museum as Lifeboat in mind:Hopeless need not mean helpless. On the contrary, hopelessness is the springboard to helpfulness – supportive, effective, and useful.'In other words, how to be supportive, effective and useful while living on a plane that is gliding towards an inevitable crash.My energy is not focused on fixing that gliding plane in mid-flight - tempting as that might be - but rather to focus on those who survive the crash so that they might have a fresh start. And for those who follow the conscient podcast season 6 will beginning sometime in 2025 on ‘art and culture in times of crisis and collapse':Claude: Welcome to conscient podcast, Bob. Bob: Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Claude: Now this is the beginning of season six, so I'm quite excited. And it's also early days. Today is Monday, September 16th, 2024, and we're at your farm (on Denman Island) and we've just been walking around with your son. It's actually not your farm, but your son's farm or both of you. Bob: It's a partnership. . Claude: So I'm not absolutely clear what season six is going to be in the end - t's early days- but I do know that I want to talk about art and culture in times of crisis and collapse and I see your book in front of me here called Museums and Societal Collapse : The museum as Lifeboat…I'm also working on an Artist Survival Kit.I sometimes think it should be called ‘Artist Thriving Kit' but I'm not there yet. Thanks for listening.  *END NOTES FOR ALL EPISODESI've been producing the conscient podcast as a learning and unlearning journey since May 2020 on un-ceded Anishinaabe Algonquin territory (Ottawa). It's my way to give back and be present.In parallel with the production of the conscient podcast and it's francophone counterpart, balado conscient, I publish a Substack newsletter called ‘a calm presence' which are 'short, practical essays about collapse acceptance, adaptation, response and art'. To subscribe (free of charge) see https://acalmpresence.substack.com. You'll also find a podcast version of each a calm presence posting on Substack or one your favorite podcast player.Also, please note that a complete transcript of conscient podcast and balado conscient episodes from season 1 to 4 is available on the web version of this site (not available on podcast apps) here: https://conscient-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes.Your feedback is always welcome at claude@conscient.ca and/or on conscient podcast social media: Facebook, X, Instagram or Linkedin. I am grateful and accountable to the earth and the human labour that provided me with the privilege of producing this podcast, including the toxic materials and extractive processes behind the computers, recorders, transportation systems and infrastructure that made this production possible. Claude SchryerLatest update on July 20, 2024

Get ready to dive deep into the future of Vocational Rehabilitation (VR) with Dr. Joe Ashley and Dr. Bob Schmidt in our latest episode! Joe, the dynamic Project Director of the VR-ROI initiative at George Washington University, teams up with Bob, one of the leading economists and the Project Research Coordinator, to bring you insider knowledge on revamping return on investment models for VR programs. They're on a mission to streamline and elevate how VR agencies operate, helping them become more efficient, effective, and impactful. Their discussion is packed with actionable insights that will empower your agency to sharpen its data collection strategies, ensuring the true value of your services shines through. Plus, learn how to better communicate the VR success story to policymakers and stakeholders! Tune in to discover how you can maximize your VR impact with the latest advancements from the VR-ROI project. Don't miss out!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Joe: We're trying to make sure we have information that the director can use with policymakers, and something for clients and counselors to use to say, yes, this is the kind of services we're looking for.   Bob: The model we develop is based on readily available administrative data.   Joe: It's built on the individual customers and how well they do and what their outcomes are.   Bob: The human capital development, that's what it's all about a lot. Some things just aren't measurable. So when you mentioned financial return on investment, that's what we're talking about.   Joe: If you can't capture it, you're not able to tell the story.   Carol: Yep, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen.   Bob: That's right.   Joe: Yeah.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are Dr. Joe Ashley, the project director for the VR Return on Investment project based at the George Washington University, and Dr. Bob Schmidt, one of the five economists working on the project and the project research coordinator. So, Joe, how are things going for you today?   Joe:  Today they are doing really well. Thanks for asking, Carol.   Carol: Nice to hear it, Joe. and Bob, how are you doing?   Bob: I'm doing well as well, at least, as well as Joe is doing.   Carol: That's awesome. Alright, glad to have it guys. Okay, so for our listeners, Joe is my colleague and we got him out of retirement to serve as the project director for this important initiative. And this project is funded by the National Institute on Disability, Independent Living and Rehabilitation Research, also known as NIDILRR. Now, this is the federal government's primary disability research organization and is part of the Administration for Community Living. Now, NIDILRR's mission is to generate new knowledge and to promote its effective use to improve the abilities of individuals with disabilities to perform activities of their choice in the community and to expand society's capacity to provide full opportunities and accommodations for its citizens with disabilities. NIDILRR achieves this mission by funding research, demonstration, training, technical assistance, and related activities to maximize the full inclusion and integration into society, employment, independent living, family support, and economic and social self-sufficiency of individuals with disabilities of all ages. They also promote the transfer of, and use and adoption of rehab technology for individuals with disabilities in a timely manner, and also ensure the widespread distribution and usable formats of practical, scientific and technological information. And they do address a wide range of disabilities and impairments across populations of all ages. Now, Joe, I know you have a little disclaimer you wanted to make.   Joe: Yeah, I just want to be sure that people understand that what Bob and I are going to talk about today is our opinion of what return on investment should be, and is not necessarily reflect what NIDILRR is looking at.   Carol: Excellent. Well thanks Joe. Let's dig in. So, Joe, why don't you kick us off and tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in vocational rehabilitation?   Joe: Carol, I've been in rehabilitation for quite a while. I worked with the Virginia Department for Aging and Rehabilitative Services, the general agency in Virginia, for over 25-27 years, most of the time as an assistant commissioner in a variety of roles. I have a master's in rehabilitation counseling from the University of South Carolina. That sort of got me focused on vocational rehabilitation. And then later I had a Doctorate in rehabilitation from SIU at Carbondale that took me on a path of looking at program evaluation and program development. When I got to Virginia, I was working out of the Woodrow Wilson Rehab Center, now called Wilson Rehabilitation Center, and was working in a program that was collaborative across, it was one of the early transition grants, 1985,and it looked at vocational evaluation as a part of a process to help kids learn what they needed to do. And we were working with students from special education and vocational education in the schools, and vocational rehabilitation, and getting these systems to collaborate to help kids find out what they want to do and to be successful in employment and in life. And I got to where I really enjoyed that kind of collaborative work, and I ended up as an assistant commissioner in the agency, looking at developing innovative new programs as a part of my responsibilities and looking at a lot of the ancillary support services like rehabilitation, engineering and other kinds of things. Through a series of circumstances, I ended up as the director of the field services for four years, where I began to get a good sense of what disabilities needed to be in terms of supports to be successful in employment and being able to live successfully in their communities. In addition to that, what counselors and other staff needed to be able to provide those services to them. And then I got into the job that was my favorite, which was something called grants and special programs, where I did a lot of the Social Security stuff, cost reimbursement, work, incentives specialist advocates. We created a new system there to do fee for service for the work incentive services. We did a lot of work with the workforce agencies. I did all the agreements with that, and then I got to do grants and any of the grants that helped people with disabilities be able to live and work and thrive in their communities were things that we were willing to support. And I got to work with a lot of different funding systems and across a lot of different systems, you know, Special Ed workforce systems, behavioral health, a lot of different groups to help people with disabilities have opportunities. So that's what I really enjoyed. And that's where I came across the late doctor David Dean and then Bob Schmidt as a part of that package with Dean. And it was about telling the VR story. And I got real passionate about how do you tell this story in a way that is going to get people like GAO to pay attention, as well as help directors with policymakers and individuals and counselors help make decisions about what's a good choice for them. So that's really how I got to where we are today with this new grant.   Carol: Very cool Joe. I know we all look to your program in Virginia for kind of the cutting edge stuff that was happening, because you all seem to always have just something cooking.   Joe: Yes.   Carol: It didn't matter what. And especially like the disability work incentive stuff that you were talking about and all of that. Oh gosh. I just think you've done a lot of stellar things there.   Joe: Well thank you. It was fun.   Carol: It's awesome. So, Bob, tell us a little bit about yourself.   Bob: Sure. Happy to. Joe mentioned Doctor David Dean. He was a colleague of mine in the Department of Economics at the University of Richmond. He worked on what he called economics of disability, and he started working on that in graduate school at Rutgers with a faculty member there. And he worked on that. So that was in the 1980s. He came to the University of Richmond, and he got me interested in it because he was an outgoing, gregarious, very bright guy and made friends easily. So he got me involved in this probably early 1990s, and we started working with DARS and several other things at the time with Joe, but also Kirsten Roe. I don't know how many people remember her, but she was instrumental in all the work we did. So this is actually our third grant with NIDILRR. The first one was a demonstration grant. So it's a kind of a proof of concept. Second was implementing it. Now this one is refining it and taking it to the next step. That's what we're trying to do with that. So David got me excited about it. Joe keeps me excited and he keeps me honest.   Carol: That is awesome. Well, I know just being around the director ranks for years and folks talking about return on initiative, it's been a, you know, a hot topic. People chat about it, but I don't know that everybody always really understands it. And I think sometimes people think maybe it's something that it isn't and they aren't very good at explaining it, but everybody wants to do it. So you guys are going to unpack all this for us. Joe, why don't you tell us a little bit about the project and what you're trying to accomplish?   Joe: Well, with this current iteration. It's what NIDILRR calls a field initiated project on their development side, and it's got a ridiculously long title. So I'm just going to say it is about updating and simplifying our return on investment model. That's its main purpose, and it's about helping our agencies understand what they can do to be more efficient and more effective, and take a look at the mix of services that they provide, to be sure that they are getting the most out of the resources they have to help people with disabilities obtain, you know, that probability of employment and upon employment, their earnings. And we're trying to make sure we have information that the director can use with policy makers, that agencies can take a look inside their own services to say, maybe I need more of a particular type of service because I'm getting good outcomes, or maybe I need to tweak a service because it's not getting what I want it to do, and then something for clients and counselors to use to say, yes, this is the kind of services we're looking for. We got four goals, and the first one is just really to update the model. Our previous model was prior to WIOA implementation, so what we hope to be able to do is take a look at the data systems and take a look at the performance indicators that WIOA requires. And we can do a correlation, perhaps with the long term employment to see how well they're correlated. Also take a look at Covid impact. The second goal is about intensity. Our other model is you either got a service or you didn't. And if you got the service then how did it affect employment and earnings? Well, the next logical step according to The Economist and we have five on the project as you mentioned earlier, was what is the intensity of the service. Does that make a difference. So that intensity measure could be hours of work. It could be what it costs to do something. It could be units of service. And taking a look at if that is related to the propensity for employment. The other piece that goes with that is how about internals provided services, what we had before in the system, nobody had good measures of the services their own staff provided. So we're hoping with what we're seeing now and we're working with the two agencies in North Carolina, and they've been extremely helpful and collaborative with us on this process is take a look at the internally provided services and see what impact they have on the employment and earnings side of things. And then we've been told many times our third goal is simplify the model. Right now it takes economists to run it. Well that's not always a good idea for some people. So what we're trying to do is see what econometric models could we put in place to simplify this process so that it's more available to rehab agencies. But you want to make sure it's still rigorous enough to give you a reliable estimate of return on investment. So one of the things we're having with that is many of the folks on the who are listening to the podcast may be aware that we did a data analysis and management capacity survey that CSVRA sent out. Our advisory committee supported, and with that, we got 54 agencies to provide us information on what their data capacity is and what this capacity of their staff is. And then what kind of training they might be interested in. We're still looking at the data from that and we'll have some information on that later. But what we find in this may make a big difference on how simplified the model can be, or whether we need to take a different track to help people be able to implement a new model. And then finally, it's about knowledge translation. And part of that is coming to us like we did a consumer and stakeholder forum with the North Carolina State Rehab councils and some other stakeholders to get input on what they'd like to see, what kinds of information and would this information be helpful to them. And then we're going to have another consumer and stakeholder forum probably next spring to say, here's the model as we have it so far. Does this make sense to you and would this be valuable to you? So those are the big overriding goals that we have for the project.   Carol: I really like that you guys are digging into the capacity that agencies have, you know, with that data analysis, because I'm just thinking definitely, as I've been out across the country that you've got to have and the have nots. I mean, there for sure. are folks, I think of our friends in Texas and they have a lovely team there. Just they have like an amazing...   Joe: Oh yeah, they do.   Carol: ...resource team. And then you've got other folks trying to scrape together kind of a half of a position that can maybe do a little smidge of a little something around the 911.   Joe: they may have a resource like a data system, but they don't have anybody that can run it, or they may have staff with the capacity to do the data system, but they don't have the system. I mean, it's a lot of different variables there.   Bob: I'd like to jump in here just on one thing, which was on the simplified VR model. So the model we've developed, thank God it was by economists, is we're trying to address the question here. The goal of the program is to get people into competitive employment or keep them in competitive employment. If they already came into the program with it, maybe build on that. So there are a lot of things that are correlated with how well you do in the labor market, gender, race, Age, education level. All things are correlated, right? And maybe service provision in the VR program. But we'd like to take it from well, it's correlated, but we don't know exactly how or why. In the same way you can say, well, provision of this specific type of service leads to improvement in the labor market, leads to a greater likelihood of obtaining competitive employment. Now that's a different issue. Now the way you normally do that, the gold standard is a randomized clinical trial, right? Where you take people and you randomly select them and it's double blind. So neither the researcher nor the individual involved in the experiment know who's receiving the treatment, or  who isn't. Well, that's clearly impossible in VR. First of all, it's illegal to deny service to someone who is eligible and for whom you have the money. But secondly, it's impossible. So what you have to do is you have to impose statistical controls somehow. You have to do it through some sort of statistical model. And we've developed one which is state of the science. What state of the science inherently means that not everybody can implement it. So even at some universities, they aren't able to implement this particular model. And so we wanted to ask the question, could we come up with a simplified version of this model, a simpler model that can be used possibly in a VR agency or possibly at a local community college or university, something like that. And they could get similar results. So we wanted to see how could we do it? Is that a possible goal? What do you lose when you do it? Does it do a good enough job, or what kind of qualifiers do you have on it?   Joe: Where are the tradeoffs?   Bob: Yeah, what are the tradeoffs? That's a simpler model we're trying to do.   Carol: Should we talk about the model you developed now? Do you want to talk about it?   Bob: That'd be fine. Sure.   Carol: Let's do it.   Bob: Okay. One of the things is that the model we developed is based on readily available administrative data. What that means is you don't have to run a survey. You don't have to go out and do a very expensive sort of research project to find out what's going on. Instead, we use data from agency's own data system, which they collect to report to the Rehabilitation Services Administration, (RSA). they have really, really very good data. The RSA forces them to collect very good data. In fact, for some of our economists, their eyes just lit up when David told them the kind of data that he was able to access it. Whoa. That's great. So there are two levels. One is you get data from the agency itself, and then they will provide data to us that they provide through the quarterly RSA and nine over 11 report to the RSA. And more than that. So we get much greater detail than that if we know how to use it. If we can identify and know how to learn how to use it. And then secondly, all the agencies have given us access, been able to give us access to unemployment insurance sort of data. So quarterly data on that and what the RSA collects upon closure. They're mandated to follow employment and earnings for four quarters after closure, but we don't think that's long enough, especially since WIOA was passed Workforce Innovation Opportunities Act and changed the mandate to work on transition age, transitioning students with disabilities or providing those sorts of services. Well, if you're going to start working with young people who are just entering the workforce, or you're providing college level education or skilled training services to any age. You can't just follow them for four quarters. I mean, if you're just entering the workforce, you're not going to enter it at the highest levels of the workforce, right? So if you want to know what the real impact is, you have to follow them longer. So with the unemployment insurance agencies, we've been able to get quarterly employment and earnings data from 2 to 3 years before they even applied to the program. That's kind of a baseline. But what are the services do to you? How do things change? Well, that's your baseline three years before application. Then we try to follow them for at least five years after application at least. Now the current one starts in 2018. So the earliest applicants we have from 2018, and then we collect all applicants between 2018 and 2021. So already it's a stretch to get five years of data. But we had to start that recent because we all wasn't fully implemented effectively until 2017, 1819. In fact, the fellow North County says preferably 19 or 2021. But then you don't have, you know, this thing ends in 2025 and you don't have enough data, enough tracking. So that's the first thing, is readily administrative tracking earnings over a long period of time, as long as possible. Another thing is generally the way these things are done or have been looked at is you look at the VR program as a whole. You don't look at by discipline, you look at the agency. These are people who apply for services, and these are people who got to the point where they got a plan or plan for employment services. And then how do they do? We look a little differently. We look at by disability type. First of all, we look at for broad based disabilities folks with a cognitive impairment. And that could be an intellectual disability or a learning disability. Folks with a mental illness. And then also we try to find out how severe that mental illness is. Folks who have a physical impairment and folks who are blind or visually impaired or otherwise visually impaired. So we look at and we estimate those all separately because we think services are assigned differently by disability type on average. And also the disability type affects how you will do in the marketplace, for example. What we found out was for folks with physical impairment, unlike folks who have a cognitive impairment, cognitive impairment might be with you since birth, perhaps. And so therefore you kind of have a steady level of earnings at a certain level. But if you have a physical impairment that often comes on very quickly, very acutely, very quickly. So all of a sudden you see their preapplication Application for earnings pretty good. And then boom there's a big plummet, right? And so then you have to do something different with the track that the pre-application earnings. So that's the second thing. The third thing is that this idea that these folks, we look at the folks who received,, who had a plan and therefore received services, we compare those people who didn't have a plan and didn't receive services. So he received service, he didn't. Or, in economics or the social sciences, you call it a treatment group and a comparison or a control group. Well, we thought you could do a little bit better than that. What we look at is we look at anywhere from 7 to 9 to 10 to 11 different types of services things like diagnosis, medical treatments, college education, training, all those sorts of things. We say, first of all, how is the decision made that you're going to receive this type of service? And then secondly, what impact does it have? So what factors influence the decision to We see what type of services and what impact does that service have in the labor market on gaining and keeping competitive employment. So we look at that. So we look at different types of service. So you can see already it's a much richer type of analysis therefore much more complicated types of analysis. And then the last part is that we built sort of a state of the science model. And that's what makes it complicated for many people to try to implement. And by that we mean that this correlation versus causation. So instead of doing a randomized clinical trial you have to take the data as you receive it. So therefore you kind of build control by saying how do you control for different things that might affect this that you don't observe. Now one of these might be motivation, right? So if you have someone who's particularly highly motivated that will might lead them to both apply to a VR program and a plan, follow through and move on, successfully complete the program, and might also quite separately, whether or not they receive services. It helps them in the labor market, right? Because they're motivated to succeed. So how do you distinguish those things? That's tough. You do randomized clinical trial. You can't because both types people end up in both parts motivated and unmotivated. So we have to impose this controls. And that gets a little complicated. So that's basically the model is then once you're done. So then we get impacts by type of service. We also collect cost of providing those services. Cost of the program. We have those impacts. We let them spit out and say what would happen if they kept getting this benefit level for the next five to 10 to 15 years? And then you have to do some what's called discounting in technical and finance and econ. So you do that and then you say, okay, this is the total gain from that service or actually from all the services combined. And this was the cost. And the difference to that is kind of cost versus benefits, right? Hopefully the benefits exceed the costs, right? And that's how much they've gained because of the service per versus both the. That's essentially what you do. And the other thing about that is we can calculate that for each individual in the sample. So we have individual level returns on investment individual level benefits or effectiveness. And you can then aggregate that up and say okay agency wide. This is what it looks like. The agency's return on investment for a particular disability. That's what their return on investment look for males their females. Any group you want to do you can just do it because we have the individual impacts of it. So that's the model. And we want to see whether a simplified model can get us similar sort of information.   Joe: One of the things, Carol, that I find compelling about the model in particular is something Bob just pointed out, and that is it's built on the individual customers and how well they do in this process and what their outcomes are, and it builds up. So it starts at that individual client level. The other thing, when the economists were developing the model and they were looking at the data of people who went through the system, they observed that there's a lot of variability in the types of services that are provided. So they built the model around that variability of services. So that individual service model, that is VR is what makes the variability work for this model. So it's very much tied to the core tenets of the VR program, that individual services model. And that's where the variability comes from. And that's why it can give us some causation. So I think it's really important to note that it is consistent with how we do services and how we provide what we do. The other thing I will say about The Economist is they have been dedicated to understanding how VR works. They often in the early days when we were going out, they would sit down with the agencies and say, does this make sense to you? And then they would look at the model to see what would make it make more sense in terms of telling how VR works or the outcomes of VR. So they've spent a lot of time trying to understand the system and get knowledgeable about how VR works and what the opportunities are, what the process is, so that what they're modeling is consistent with how we do business. So I think that's a key component.   Carol: I think that's really cool that you said that, Joe, about taking it back to the individualized nature of the program because VR, you know, you think about it in an aggregate, we get this big $4 billion in a lump. And, boy, each person's experience within that is so individualized. It is, you know, whether you're getting this or that, you know, are you getting educational sorts of services and access to training and post-secondary and all kinds of different things? Or are you a person on a different trajectory, and maybe you needed some medical rehabilitation type of stuff going on? You needed something completely different. Like, people have so many ways to mix and match and use the things they specifically need to get where they need to go. You probably can't do it unless you get down to that level. So that is very interesting. Now, Joe, I know we've talked about this in our team a little bit even. And I know you said you wrestled with your group, but this whole notion of return on investment or taxpayer return on investment has been a really interesting topic and is fraught with some issues itself. And I remember coming into Minnesota and the general agency director like taxpayer return on investment, and I was brand new in the program. I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about right now, but a lot of times you tend to hear it discussed that way. But I know, Joe, you've said there's a lot of issues around this. So what are some of those issues?   Joe: It's an interesting little issue. The very first meeting we had, it was at Carver, and we had a number of people from different agencies and state rehab councils come into a meeting, and we were laying out the first model. And one of the directors at that point said, well, are you doing a taxpayer return on investment? And by that he meant returning Taxes, increase in taxes, receipts going back to the Treasury. And that was his definition of it. That was the first one. And then when we were in North Carolina at the consumer forum that we did the stakeholder and consumer forum, we got the question from some advocates and said it doesn't seem to go away. We always get that question, but the issue is what is the appropriate way to determine the return on investment for a particular type of program. And it was interesting. We got this question so often, even from some of our workforce friends that are the economists said about writing a paper to describe why taxpayer return on investment is not appropriate for a VR type of program. And they submitted it to, I think it was three, maybe four different econ journals, and some of them didn't even send it out for review. They said, this is already settled. It's not appropriate for this kind of program. So the issue is another workforce programs or human capital development. And the purpose of a human capital development type of program is to in our case, find people employment and look at that probability of employment. And then conditional on that earnings, if you've got people in your system and they're entry level, a lot of them are not going to be at the level where they pay any kind of taxes at all for several years. So you really don't have a lot to show when you do taxpayer return on investment in terms of that. Also, one of the things that we noticed when one of the studies that was done is that in some cases, and this is with a particular type of one of the particular disabilities, is the only one they looked at this with when we had some Social Security earnings available data available to us for a short while. Not only do we get people off of Social Security benefits, but we also find people that go on to Social Security benefits from being involved with VR, and that often makes them more stable. So then they can then participate in a VR type of program and be successful. But it's a long, long term process to do that. So in the short term, you're not going to show anything but about as many come on as go off. So you're really not showing that. But if you're doing what the authorizing legislation says you're supposed to do, which is get people employed, let's just take it down to a simple level and then the question becomes, are you efficient and effective in that process? And that's what this particular return on investment model is about. And that is what the economists would say is the appropriate way to look at this. Now they would call this a social welfare type of program is the category they put it in. And then human capital development. But there's other kinds of benefits that accrue to the individual. Because this model, this type of approach looks at it benefits to the individual and to the society in general, which is the individual being employed. And in this case, there are other benefits that we can't observe. Self-confidence would be a good example. Quality of life would be a good example. So in our case, what we're able to observe is how they're interacting in the workplace. And that's really the piece that we can measure. And that's where we're going with this. And the others might be important, but very few places have really figured out how to measure that.   Carol: Well, Joe, I actually I was telling Bob before we hopped on, I said, you know, I threw something in ChatGPT because I was like, all right, VR return on investment. Explain it to me. And ChatGPT it spit out. It talked about financial return on investment, you know, with employment earnings, cost savings. But it was talking about social return on investment, improve quality of life, community contributions. You know people experiencing that enhanced self-esteem, independence, all those things. And then personal return on investment with skill development, career advancement, those kind of things. It was just kind of fun to run it through and go, hey, yeah, because I know you guys have wrestled with like, what are you going to call the thing? Did you come up with like the name, The Thing??   Joe: Yes, it's interesting. I think what we came down with is that we think the vocational rehabilitation return on investment is the name we're going to stick with. And then say, you know, what we have is a human capital development project, and that's how we're measuring it or return on investment. But what we're going to have to do this is so ingrained in the culture of VR that you've got to return taxpayer dollars. Well, that's really not what VR says it's supposed to do. And so how do you get people to understand that that's not the appropriate way to look at the VR program. So we're going to have to do some education. I think about what return on investment is. And I may use your ChatGPT story...   Carol: Yeah.   Joe: To ...tell it.   Carol: Bob, I see you have something you want to jump in with.   Bob: Yes, and I think well, I have several things. One is I think the reason it's so ingrained, I think I might be wrong. Joe can correct me is because agency directors have to testify before the state legislature to get the money they want from the state legislature, right? And say the legislature, at least for a while. I don't know if they're still doing it. They're saying, yeah, but what's the return to the taxpayer on this? Why are we funding this if it's a money losing proposition Well, that's the thought process. But the problem with that is the state legislatures are kind of going against the odds. The federal authorizing legislation, you know, VR dates back to again, Joe can correct me. After World War One, when veterans came back from war and they had some severe physical injuries, and the federal government said, well, let's try to get them services to help them vocationally help them get back to work, get a job, and keep it so that they're effective in the workplace. Well, that thing was incredibly successful. So over time they said, well, this works so well. Can we expand it to other disabilities? Maybe states want to get involved in this as well. So what's happened over time is every one of the 50 states has this kind of co-funded arrangement with the federal government. And the Rehabilitation Services Administration oversees it, where they jointly sponsor these things, and it now covers many disabilities. Some states have more than one agency, one for the blind and visually impaired and one for the general. Other disabilities. So it goes back that far. And the authorizing legislation says is specifically provide services to help the individual gain and maintain competitive employment. And we're back down to the individual with that. It doesn't say to pay for itself to the fed, to repay the state or federal government for those services. So that's one thing. It's not what the metric to do it by. A second thing is, I mean, I never did like the social welfare. I'm an economist who would never call this a social welfare program. First of all, welfare has a negative connotation, even if its denotation is not negative. It's social improvement or anything. But it's really less a social more. As I said, the human capital development, that's what it's all about. And he also mentioned the issue that a lot of some things just aren't measurable. So when you mentioned financial return on investment, that's what we're talking about. Is the agency doing its job of getting people back to competitive employment and leading a better life, and maybe freeing up some of their family work to do other things. There might also be a multiplier effect in the sense that they earn more money, they spend the money. Other people, as a result, earn more money. And economists call that a multiplier effect. So that dollar has more on it. But it wouldn't get measured in this taxpayer return on investment at all.   Carol: Okay, cool. So I know you guys have made some interesting observations in reviewing the data and looking at some of the longitudinal data. What kind of things are you guys seeing?   Joe: My observation is that it concerns me that some people we've  learned recently that some of the states aren't capturing data after the fourth quarter after exit in terms of UI data. I know one state that is capturing going for that after the fourth quarter for their Social Security cases, because it helps them obtain more resources through cost reimbursement. But I think that we're underselling the value of VR when you only do the fourth quarter up to four quarters after exit. And I realize that's a lot more than we used to do. But on the other hand, it's probably not the best way to tell the VR story, because you just don't capture everything. And younger population exacerbates this. You just don't capture it with all the impact of VR can be for an individual over time. So I think that's one of the things I have seen. We had a study we did from a long time ago, from the first since I did with David, Dean and Bob, where we had a program, that transition program, and the students that participated in it were focused on post-secondary opportunities, and they were measured against the counterpart group that went in the VR system of youth. And the other kids typically went to work faster than the participants in this program. But at year six, after application, the perk students took off in terms of their employment, and the other kids just they were still employed and they were doing well. But the perk kids took off with this post-secondary approach, which is what we're being asked to do now. And you really wouldn't have told the story if you only went for five years after application. So those are the kinds of things that I'm concerned about with the longitudinal data.   Carol: Joe, so what about this to with it. You know, like especially blind agencies tend to provide a lot of the services themselves. What kind of problems are there with that and not sort of capturing the data?   Joe: We have seen that as an issue with the 2007 data set. We have in the 2012 data set, we had and our colleagues in the blind agencies were very clear that there were services that they were providing that were critical to successful employment and adjustment, but we didn't have any way to capture it. And so you're, again, you're undervaluing the impact of those agency provided services by not capturing them. And I think that's going to be critical. I think there's some requirements now that they have to be reporting some of this information, but it's a question of whether it's getting into that case management system and it becomes readily available administrative data that can be used to help tell the story of the impact of the great work that these counselors and other kinds of specialists are providing to help people become employed and adjust into their settings. Bob, you want to talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the data?   Bob: Well, yes. And now with the new data set, RSA 911, that quarterly report that all agencies have to provide and again for four quarters after closure that thing now they've made some changes and it's now required whereby types by 32 different service types they report. Did you provide purchase services during the quarter. If so how much did you provide it in-house or was it provided through a comparable benefit, some other external agency and that might have a dollar value attached to it? So we're going to use that data and see what we have. Now of course with any data set. Now I'll tell you purchase service data that's pretty reliable because they need to get their money back, right? They need to get reimbursed. They need to pay the bills. And so they track that through their accounting system very well. But the other things are and had entered often by counselors who are harried and busy and have a lot of other things to do, rather than this bureaucratic kind of form filling out, so it's only as good as the data that are put into it, and we won't know how good that is, but we'll see how much we learn. this way, hopefully we'll learn some things we didn't know.   Joe: What we have been told is that the data is not there for us to capture, and that it undervalues the kind of work that's being done. So we're hoping we can find a way to tell that story, because it sounds pretty important. And then from my personal experience in managing some of these services, I know how hard these folks work and how valuable these services are. But if you can't capture it, you're not able to tell the story.   Carol: Yep. If it isn't documented, it didn't happen.   Joe: Yeah.   Bob: That's right.   Carol: So what are the next steps on the grant and how can we get folks involved? Are you needing people to help with anything, any states or anything we've got?   Joe: North Carolina is, we're working very closely with them and they've been really good to work with. We will be once we get the prototype, I don't know what to call it. The economists are putting together the data system information so that they can begin to apply the new model and that'll be happening hopefully within a couple of months. And then once we've run the model a couple of times, we'll be asking some other people to come in sort of a national audience to take a look and hear what the model is, what it offers to get their feedback on. Yes, that would be useful or that doesn't seem to work for me much. Could you do this other thing? And then we'll also be asking them about. We'll be showing them what we've come up with for the simplified model to see if that version is going to work or if we need to be developing maybe a template RFP for them to use with a local institution that they work with, then they would be able to get the data set. So we're going to be looking at that. We may be asking folks to work with us a little bit on the capacity survey, where it talks about the training that states might be wanting to say, who can provide this kind of service, and would this be valuable to do to increase people's ability capacity? Because there's a lot of data needs out there. And I think if it would help our project, it would probably help a lot of other projects as well.   Carol: So, Joe, are you thinking about that for fall, possibly at CSAVR or something?   Joe: That's November. That should be a time when we would have an opportunity to gather some information. Yeah, because we might be ready for it by then. Of course, that might put a little pressure on the economists, but I don't mind doing that.   Carol: Yeah. Bob's looking like, oh well okay.   Bob: You love doing that, Joe. I mean, one of the things my major professor in graduate school always said, I love working on a research project where I learn something and what Joe said is exactly right. So we would take and vet our results to various agents. We may make a trip to the agency before Covid. We go and we sit down. We go through everything, explain what we're trying to do when we sell. And then they would say, that looks a little wonky or something, or did you do this? And you say, no, we didn't do that. Yeah, we could do that. Let's do it. And then we would revise the model or no, unfortunately we don't have enough information to do it. Could you collect it? You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, we keep learning things and that's what these groups are intended. That's what they're for. For our selfish purposes. That's what we like about them.   Carol: That's excellent, you guys.   Joe: So November would be good, Bob.   Bob: So you say.   Carol: Well, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what comes out of all of this. And you were saying that the end of the grant then is in 2025.   Joe: August 31st of 25.   Bob: Right.   Carol: All right. That's coming up quick you guys, really quick.   Joe: Oh it is.   Carol: Well, awesome I appreciate you both being on today. I cannot wait to hear more as this unfolds. So thanks for joining me.   Joe: We really appreciate the opportunity.   Bob: Yes we do.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Circular Reasoning, published by abramdemski on August 5, 2024 on LessWrong. The idea that circular reasoning is bad is widespread. However, this reputation is undeserved. While circular reasoning should not be convincing (at least not usually), it should also not be considered invalid. Circular Reasoning is Valid The first important thing to note is that circular reasoning is logically valid. A implies A. If circular arguments are to be critiqued, it must be by some other standard than logical validity. I think it's fair to say that the most relevant objection to circular arguments is that they are not very good at convincing someone who does not already accept the conclusion. You are talking to another person, and need to think about communicating with their perspective. Perhaps the reason circular arguments are a common 'problem' is because they are valid. People naturally think about what should be a convincing argument from their own perspective, rather than the other person's. However, notice that this objection to circular reasoning assumes that one party is trying to convince the other. This is arguments-as-soldiers mindset.[1] If two people are curiously exploring each other's perspectives, then circular reasoning could be just fine! Furthermore, I'll claim: circular arguments should actually be considered as a little bit of positive evidence for their positions! Let's look at a concrete example. I don't think circular arguments are quite so simple as "A implies A"; the circle is usually a bit longer. So, consider a more realistic circular position:[2] Alice: Why do you believe in God? Bob: I believe in God based on the authority of the Bible. Alice: Why do you believe what the Bible says? Bob: Because the Bible was divinely inspired by God. God is all-knowing and good, so we can trust what God says. Here we have a two-step loop, A->B and B->A. The arguments are still logically fine; if the Bible tells the truth, and the Bible says God exists, then God exists. If the Bible were divinely inspired by an all-knowing and benevolent God, then it is reasonable to conclude that the Bible tells the truth. If Bob is just honestly going through his own reasoning here (as opposed to trying to convince Alice), then it would be wrong for Alice to call out Bob's circular reasoning as an error. The flaw in circular reasoning is that it doesn't convince anyone; but that's not what Bob is trying to do. Bob is just telling Alice what he thinks. If Alice thinks Bob is mistaken, and wants to point out the problems in Bob's beliefs, it is better for Alice to contest the premises of Bob's arguments rather than contest the reasoning form. Pointing out circularity only serves to remind Bob that Bob hasn't given Alice a convincing argument. You probably still think Bob has made some mistake in his reasoning, if these are his real reasons. I'll return to this later. Circular Arguments as Positive Evidence I claimed that circular arguments should count as a little bit of evidence in favor of their conclusions. Why? Imagine that the Bible claimed itself to be written by an evil and deceptive all-knowing God, instead of a benign God: Alice: Why do you believe in God? Bob: Because the Bible tells me so. Alice: Why do you believe the Bible? Bob: Well... uh... huh. Sometimes, belief systems are not even internally consistent. You'll find a contradiction[3] just thinking through the reasoning that is approved of by the belief system itself. This should make you disbelieve the thing. Therefore, by the rule we call conservation of expected evidence, reasoning through a belief system and deriving a conclusion consistent with the premise you started with should increase your credence. It provides some evidence that there's a consistent hypothesis here; and consistent hypotheses should get some ...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Circular Reasoning, published by abramdemski on August 5, 2024 on LessWrong. The idea that circular reasoning is bad is widespread. However, this reputation is undeserved. While circular reasoning should not be convincing (at least not usually), it should also not be considered invalid. Circular Reasoning is Valid The first important thing to note is that circular reasoning is logically valid. A implies A. If circular arguments are to be critiqued, it must be by some other standard than logical validity. I think it's fair to say that the most relevant objection to circular arguments is that they are not very good at convincing someone who does not already accept the conclusion. You are talking to another person, and need to think about communicating with their perspective. Perhaps the reason circular arguments are a common 'problem' is because they are valid. People naturally think about what should be a convincing argument from their own perspective, rather than the other person's. However, notice that this objection to circular reasoning assumes that one party is trying to convince the other. This is arguments-as-soldiers mindset.[1] If two people are curiously exploring each other's perspectives, then circular reasoning could be just fine! Furthermore, I'll claim: circular arguments should actually be considered as a little bit of positive evidence for their positions! Let's look at a concrete example. I don't think circular arguments are quite so simple as "A implies A"; the circle is usually a bit longer. So, consider a more realistic circular position:[2] Alice: Why do you believe in God? Bob: I believe in God based on the authority of the Bible. Alice: Why do you believe what the Bible says? Bob: Because the Bible was divinely inspired by God. God is all-knowing and good, so we can trust what God says. Here we have a two-step loop, A->B and B->A. The arguments are still logically fine; if the Bible tells the truth, and the Bible says God exists, then God exists. If the Bible were divinely inspired by an all-knowing and benevolent God, then it is reasonable to conclude that the Bible tells the truth. If Bob is just honestly going through his own reasoning here (as opposed to trying to convince Alice), then it would be wrong for Alice to call out Bob's circular reasoning as an error. The flaw in circular reasoning is that it doesn't convince anyone; but that's not what Bob is trying to do. Bob is just telling Alice what he thinks. If Alice thinks Bob is mistaken, and wants to point out the problems in Bob's beliefs, it is better for Alice to contest the premises of Bob's arguments rather than contest the reasoning form. Pointing out circularity only serves to remind Bob that Bob hasn't given Alice a convincing argument. You probably still think Bob has made some mistake in his reasoning, if these are his real reasons. I'll return to this later. Circular Arguments as Positive Evidence I claimed that circular arguments should count as a little bit of evidence in favor of their conclusions. Why? Imagine that the Bible claimed itself to be written by an evil and deceptive all-knowing God, instead of a benign God: Alice: Why do you believe in God? Bob: Because the Bible tells me so. Alice: Why do you believe the Bible? Bob: Well... uh... huh. Sometimes, belief systems are not even internally consistent. You'll find a contradiction[3] just thinking through the reasoning that is approved of by the belief system itself. This should make you disbelieve the thing. Therefore, by the rule we call conservation of expected evidence, reasoning through a belief system and deriving a conclusion consistent with the premise you started with should increase your credence. It provides some evidence that there's a consistent hypothesis here; and consistent hypotheses should get some ...

Bob, it has been a while since we have talked to the contact center show audience, and there are some rumors that I want to put to bed. Bob, the word on the street is we got rich and famous and we stopped putting out new show. I've gotten some responses from our fans. Can you put these rumors to bed? What actually happened here? Bob Well, as you can see, I'm calling you from my yacht. So the rumors are not true. I don't think anyone who uses the word customer service anywhere in their title has gotten rich from being in customer service. I remember the times I used to work with my budgets and nobody got rich there. Maybe some famous authors got rich writing books about customer service. I don't know why both of us are not in that category, but I do say we had a lot of fun doing that podcast we did. And we want you to follow us to the next podcast we're doing. Amas Yes. Bob So let's talk a little bit about that. Amas Let's talk about that. And we're going to talk about the new show, the customer happiness show. But before we do that, I went back and I looked, and over the course of those years, we put out over 70 episodes. I don't know many people, and they average about 45 minutes each. I don't know many people who can talk for 3 hours about most topics. Why do you love contact centers and customer service? Why have you stayed in it most of your career? What's in it for you? Bob Well, first of all, if we put out 70 episodes, then I probably have run out of things to say at this point. So maybe that's the reason why we stopped talking about contact. Amas Good point. Bob What do I love about customer service? I love that customer service is almost always a human experience. And yes, I know that digital is going to take over the world and call centers are going to go away. And all the pontificating about how much we're not going to have a call center, I don't think those are right. And I love that human interactions are almost always part of the equation. And it's in those times that we walk away from a company more loyal, saying, that was a good experience. That is why I like customer service. What about you? What's your draw to customer service? Amas I think, Bob, it's a profession that has allowed me to utilize many parts of my brain and my know, there's a little behavioral economics there, right? How do you get people to do things, whether employees, customers, how do you get them to behave? There's a lot of technologies, technology, and a lot of things. And then there is what we used to call soft skills. And one of our few guests we had on the show taught us there was tough skills. That's a great episode. You guys go check that out. And by tough skills, people used to think about them as just pleases and thank you. There's a little art about how you deliver information, how you listen, how you do that. So you have to learn about those things as well. Then there's data involved, right? You got to measure everything because you're trying to do things efficiently and effectively. And as you know, I tried to go do something else for a little while last year, and I came right back and I'll probably spend the rest of my career doing this, and I can't imagine doing anything else. And so we've stopped putting out. I mean, we'll come occasionally and put out some shows here. The show is still going to be up, guys. You can get it. But we have made this pivot. And I got to tell you the story about how this came of. The name of the show, by the way, is the customer happiness show, but the name of the show, the format of the show, all of this came. I took a trip to Bob lives in Memphis and I live in Oklahoma City, and we go and see each other as often as time, and all of that permits. So I go there. We had a few beers in Memphis. We took that really long walk. I don't know how many miles that thing was. I wanted to see the little river thing. I don't know what you call that body of water, but we took that walk around it and we agonized about what this format will be. All we were sure about is we know that we've put out tons of contents to help contact center people around the world till this date. I still get emails that I don't forward to, Bob. They don't come in as often anymore because there are no new episodes. And every time someone mentions the show, it gives me lots of joy that we put that out. But we wanted to pivot to go talk to consumers, the Joe blow consumers out, Bob, and you can share more about. It's been months since we were having that conversation. Why are you excited about this format and specifically talking about consumers? What really excites you about it? Well, I think the very first time. Bob You and I were on a podcast together, if I'm not mistaken, was sometime in late 2019, where I joined yours, and we started talking in the same vein along. What do we get? Could we do a podcast together and our main number one goal was to have fun doing it. And I think we've met that number one goal. I hope we meet that number one goal with this one. But I'm excited because like you said, we talked a lot about sales and contact centers and walk up service and just about every kind of service. And it's always been the knowledge from the inside out. It's always been helping people on the inside do it better. So I'm excited to take all of those years of knowledge of what happens on the inside and turn it around. We did a show recently over on the new podcast about customer service at SiriusXM. And so what we're able to do is we understand service in general. So we're able to take the inside view and share it with the consumer and say, here are ways that you can be a better consumer to get better service. That's what excites me. It's from the outside. Amas I think. I think for me, Bob, similar to what you're saying, I feel like because we were so focused on the inside, the professionals, we were always helping the consumer. We were trying to teach people who delivered your service, contact center leaders, et cetera, to deliver your good service. Now we get to kind of be in the middle. We're going to focus on the consumer, bring all of our inside information in and teach consumers how to do that. I remember I'm a foodie, as you know, and Bob is as well. We both love food. And the book that changed the way I order out is Anthony Bourdain's kitchen confidential. And that's what I hope this is in know. He taught me that don't order the special, don't order the like because he was a chef and he knew all of that inside deal. And he didn't write the book for chefs, he wrote it for people who go out to eat. Until this date, when I walk into a restaurant, the things I learned from him still kind of echoes in my brain. And I hope this show becomes that. But the second reason I'm really excited is the format that we haven't told you guys about is we debated a little bit on the contact center show, but this show is all it is, all of us, not every single show, but for the most part, we are going back and forth. And I don't think it will surprise anyone who's listened to Bob and I over these four years that I win almost every time. So that part also excites me. I don't know if it excites Bob so much. Losing to me every week. But that part really gives me a lot of joy. Bob You definitely win every time you're talking because you say the most absurd things that I've ever heard, much like the. Amas One you just said. Bob But that is part of the reason for me also. I enjoy the back and forth. Amas So we are on the show and I suspect, and guys, you got to check out the show. I don't think the show is us. While it's called customer happiness, we are not on the show talking about how great customer service is. We are often on the show talking about some of the things and helping consumers navigate it better. So let me ask you, let me put you on the spot. What is your biggest pet peeve? You are a consumer. All of us are consumers. What's your biggest pet peeve? Put your customer hat on. Bob Well, mine is always when I'm told this is the policy and that's the only thing we can do. I hate hearing the word policy. I think that we probably make those agents that way because we do have a policy and we do tell them they can't negotiate. But that's my pet peeve because there should always be negotiation. In fact, I'll tell you an experience. I recently was at a well known shoe store and the employee came back and said, I'm sorry, but that's the policy. So I said, well, the policy doesn't make any sense. And he said something to the degree of, if I had a dollar for every time a corporate policy didn't make sense in my job, I'd be a millionaire. And so here's a guy that would really like to help me. Agrees with me that the policy is crazy. But he's quoting me the policy. So the policy for me is the one. I don't know what yours is. What's yours? Amas Mine is maybe dishonesty is too strong of a word. I don't like the fact that I go somewhere, they ask me for my email address to send me a receipt, and then here comes all these emails. I don't like the we will be with you shortly. Your call is important to us. They will call me and they won't call me back. It's these broken promises for me that makes customer service a pain at times. And so I actually prefer just tell me what I'm getting so that way I know what this is going to look like. So, guys, again, I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you to every single person over the years who downloaded the show, who subscribed who liked, who told people about it, who shared it, I cannot know. Two guys, one in Oklahoma City, one in Memphis. Two friends got on the phone and talked. And at the peak of our show, 4000 of you would download the show. I am incredibly just humbled and thankful and just hope we get a little bit of that success onto the next show. So we're asking you to stick with us. Come with us to the next show. You're going to learn something. You're going to hear us even hopefully funnier and more entertaining. And Bob, by the way, is semi retired now, which means God knows what's going to come out of his mouth. So please come join us. Bob Yeah, I'm on my own now. I can say what I really want to say instead of what I need to be careful how I say it. But you can join us on the same channels you're used to. So we're on Spotify, we're on Alexa, we're on Apple, we're on all the places that you get your podcast. We're still distributing to the same places. You can do a search on the customer happiness show. We're the only one out there with that name. So you can search on that. We'll put the link in, put the name at the end of this video. But as Amas said, thank you so much for your listening to us. I had somebody tell me that was a new research analyst that just began to work in the contact center space in a financial capacity as a research analyst. Tell me that she felt like she got more information from our podcast. And I said, well, how many did you listen to? She goes, I'm too embarrassed to tell you how many of them I listened to. But she said that she got a lot out of it and it felt like she understood both sides of the contact center world by listening. So it's just those kind of comments and the emails that you send that have made us keep doing it. We just hope you'll join us in the new one. Amas Awesome. Well, please subscribe. Like comment. The show is still going to be available, we're going to keep it going, and every now and then we'll pop in and maybe produce some new content. But please subscribe the customer happiness show wherever you get your podcast. Thank you all. Bye.  

Bob, it has been a while since we have talked to the contact center show audience, and there are some rumors that I want to put to bed. Bob, the word on the street is we got rich and famous and we stopped putting out new show. I've gotten some responses from our fans. Can you put these rumors to bed? What actually happened here? Bob Well, as you can see, I'm calling you from my yacht. So the rumors are not true. I don't think anyone who uses the word customer service anywhere in their title has gotten rich from being in customer service. I remember the times I used to work with my budgets and nobody got rich there. Maybe some famous authors got rich writing books about customer service. I don't know why both of us are not in that category, but I do say we had a lot of fun doing that podcast we did. And we want you to follow us to the next podcast we're doing. Amas Yes. Bob So let's talk a little bit about that. Amas Let's talk about that. And we're going to talk about the new show, the customer happiness show. But before we do that, I went back and I looked, and over the course of those years, we put out over 70 episodes. I don't know many people, and they average about 45 minutes each. I don't know many people who can talk for 3 hours about most topics. Why do you love contact centers and customer service? Why have you stayed in it most of your career? What's in it for you? Bob Well, first of all, if we put out 70 episodes, then I probably have run out of things to say at this point. So maybe that's the reason why we stopped talking about contact. Amas Good point. Bob What do I love about customer service? I love that customer service is almost always a human experience. And yes, I know that digital is going to take over the world and call centers are going to go away. And all the pontificating about how much we're not going to have a call center, I don't think those are right. And I love that human interactions are almost always part of the equation. And it's in those times that we walk away from a company more loyal, saying, that was a good experience. That is why I like customer service. What about you? What's your draw to customer service? Amas I think, Bob, it's a profession that has allowed me to utilize many parts of my brain and my know, there's a little behavioral economics there, right? How do you get people to do things, whether employees, customers, how do you get them to behave? There's a lot of technologies, technology, and a lot of things. And then there is what we used to call soft skills. And one of our few guests we had on the show taught us there was tough skills. That's a great episode. You guys go check that out. And by tough skills, people used to think about them as just pleases and thank you. There's a little art about how you deliver information, how you listen, how you do that. So you have to learn about those things as well. Then there's data involved, right? You got to measure everything because you're trying to do things efficiently and effectively. And as you know, I tried to go do something else for a little while last year, and I came right back and I'll probably spend the rest of my career doing this, and I can't imagine doing anything else. And so we've stopped putting out. I mean, we'll come occasionally and put out some shows here. The show is still going to be up, guys. You can get it. But we have made this pivot. And I got to tell you the story about how this came of. The name of the show, by the way, is the customer happiness show, but the name of the show, the format of the show, all of this came. I took a trip to Bob lives in Memphis and I live in Oklahoma City, and we go and see each other as often as time, and all of that permits. So I go there. We had a few beers in Memphis. We took that really long walk. I don't know how many miles that thing was. I wanted to see the little river thing. I don't know what you call that body of water, but we took that walk around it and we agonized about what this format will be. All we were sure about is we know that we've put out tons of contents to help contact center people around the world till this date. I still get emails that I don't forward to, Bob. They don't come in as often anymore because there are no new episodes. And every time someone mentions the show, it gives me lots of joy that we put that out. But we wanted to pivot to go talk to consumers, the Joe blow consumers out, Bob, and you can share more about. It's been months since we were having that conversation. Why are you excited about this format and specifically talking about consumers? What really excites you about it? Well, I think the very first time. Bob You and I were on a podcast together, if I'm not mistaken, was sometime in late 2019, where I joined yours, and we started talking in the same vein along. What do we get? Could we do a podcast together and our main number one goal was to have fun doing it. And I think we've met that number one goal. I hope we meet that number one goal with this one. But I'm excited because like you said, we talked a lot about sales and contact centers and walk up service and just about every kind of service. And it's always been the knowledge from the inside out. It's always been helping people on the inside do it better. So I'm excited to take all of those years of knowledge of what happens on the inside and turn it around. We did a show recently over on the new podcast about customer service at SiriusXM. And so what we're able to do is we understand service in general. So we're able to take the inside view and share it with the consumer and say, here are ways that you can be a better consumer to get better service. That's what excites me. It's from the outside. Amas I think. I think for me, Bob, similar to what you're saying, I feel like because we were so focused on the inside, the professionals, we were always helping the consumer. We were trying to teach people who delivered your service, contact center leaders, et cetera, to deliver your good service. Now we get to kind of be in the middle. We're going to focus on the consumer, bring all of our inside information in and teach consumers how to do that. I remember I'm a foodie, as you know, and Bob is as well. We both love food. And the book that changed the way I order out is Anthony Bourdain's kitchen confidential. And that's what I hope this is in know. He taught me that don't order the special, don't order the like because he was a chef and he knew all of that inside deal. And he didn't write the book for chefs, he wrote it for people who go out to eat. Until this date, when I walk into a restaurant, the things I learned from him still kind of echoes in my brain. And I hope this show becomes that. But the second reason I'm really excited is the format that we haven't told you guys about is we debated a little bit on the contact center show, but this show is all it is, all of us, not every single show, but for the most part, we are going back and forth. And I don't think it will surprise anyone who's listened to Bob and I over these four years that I win almost every time. So that part also excites me. I don't know if it excites Bob so much. Losing to me every week. But that part really gives me a lot of joy. Bob You definitely win every time you're talking because you say the most absurd things that I've ever heard, much like the. Amas One you just said. Bob But that is part of the reason for me also. I enjoy the back and forth. Amas So we are on the show and I suspect, and guys, you got to check out the show. I don't think the show is us. While it's called customer happiness, we are not on the show talking about how great customer service is. We are often on the show talking about some of the things and helping consumers navigate it better. So let me ask you, let me put you on the spot. What is your biggest pet peeve? You are a consumer. All of us are consumers. What's your biggest pet peeve? Put your customer hat on. Bob Well, mine is always when I'm told this is the policy and that's the only thing we can do. I hate hearing the word policy. I think that we probably make those agents that way because we do have a policy and we do tell them they can't negotiate. But that's my pet peeve because there should always be negotiation. In fact, I'll tell you an experience. I recently was at a well known shoe store and the employee came back and said, I'm sorry, but that's the policy. So I said, well, the policy doesn't make any sense. And he said something to the degree of, if I had a dollar for every time a corporate policy didn't make sense in my job, I'd be a millionaire. And so here's a guy that would really like to help me. Agrees with me that the policy is crazy. But he's quoting me the policy. So the policy for me is the one. I don't know what yours is. What's yours? Amas Mine is maybe dishonesty is too strong of a word. I don't like the fact that I go somewhere, they ask me for my email address to send me a receipt, and then here comes all these emails. I don't like the we will be with you shortly. Your call is important to us. They will call me and they won't call me back. It's these broken promises for me that makes customer service a pain at times. And so I actually prefer just tell me what I'm getting so that way I know what this is going to look like. So, guys, again, I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you to every single person over the years who downloaded the show, who subscribed who liked, who told people about it, who shared it, I cannot know. Two guys, one in Oklahoma City, one in Memphis. Two friends got on the phone and talked. And at the peak of our show, 4000 of you would download the show. I am incredibly just humbled and thankful and just hope we get a little bit of that success onto the next show. So we're asking you to stick with us. Come with us to the next show. You're going to learn something. You're going to hear us even hopefully funnier and more entertaining. And Bob, by the way, is semi retired now, which means God knows what's going to come out of his mouth. So please come join us. Bob Yeah, I'm on my own now. I can say what I really want to say instead of what I need to be careful how I say it. But you can join us on the same channels you're used to. So we're on Spotify, we're on Alexa, we're on Apple, we're on all the places that you get your podcast. We're still distributing to the same places. You can do a search on the customer happiness show. We're the only one out there with that name. So you can search on that. We'll put the link in, put the name at the end of this video. But as Amas said, thank you so much for your listening to us. I had somebody tell me that was a new research analyst that just began to work in the contact center space in a financial capacity as a research analyst. Tell me that she felt like she got more information from our podcast. And I said, well, how many did you listen to? She goes, I'm too embarrassed to tell you how many of them I listened to. But she said that she got a lot out of it and it felt like she understood both sides of the contact center world by listening. So it's just those kind of comments and the emails that you send that have made us keep doing it. We just hope you'll join us in the new one. Amas Awesome. Well, please subscribe. Like comment. The show is still going to be available, we're going to keep it going, and every now and then we'll pop in and maybe produce some new content. But please subscribe the customer happiness show wherever you get your podcast. Thank you all. Bye.  

Amas and Bob discuss the outbound call center: "This is giving me flashbacks of my teenage years when I was doing telemarketing." - Amas    "Time is money! Interactions to Sales matter - from a cost perspective." -Bob "Well first of all it's a tough job, in that job I was talking about I called 60 people maybe 20 talked to me, that's a lot of negativity." - Bob

Amas and Bob discuss the outbound call center: "This is giving me flashbacks of my teenage years when I was doing telemarketing." - Amas    "Time is money! Interactions to Sales matter - from a cost perspective." -Bob "Well first of all it's a tough job, in that job I was talking about I called 60 people maybe 20 talked to me, that's a lot of negativity." - Bob

Sometimes "reality" TV takes it one step too far.  Sometimes two steps.  Sometimes a flying leap. WARNING:  IMPLIED VIOLENCE AND TORTURE Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Announcer  - Frankenvox Alison - Beverly Poole Bart - Michael Faigenblum Carl - Mike Campbell Debbie - E. Vickery Ms. Sheldon - Sharon Delong Tanya - Tanja Milojevic Mom - Shayla Conrad-Simms Dad - Reynaud LeBoeuf Son - Eli Nilsson Fred - Joel Harvey Bob - Glen Hallstrom Helen - Helen Edwards June - Shelbi McIntyre Kathy - Kim Poole Additional Voices - Russell Gold; Julie Hoverson Music by Brian Bochicchio (Seraphic Panoply) Show theme:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock   "What kind of a place is it? Why it's right here, right now, can't you tell?" ************************************************************************ IDIOT BOX Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] TV Announcer Alison, chipper Bart, sullen Carl, upbeat, hearty Debbie, nervous, angry underneath Ms. Sheldon, executive producer Tanya, in the sound booth Family - mom, dad, teenage son Bar - Fred, Bob, Helen Dorm - June, Kathy OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's right here, right now, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     THEME MUSIC ANNOUNCER    last week, in the record-breaking debut of The Box, we were introduced to our four contestants: ALISON    [chipper] I'm Alison, from Santa Monica.  Hi, mom! CARL    [hearty] Carl, from Atlanta - home of the Cartoon Channel!!  DEBBIE    [nervous] Debbie, from Salem.  Uh, Oregon.  [quickly] Salem Oregon. BART    [sullen] Bart, Minneapolis [disgusted sigh]. ANNOUNCER    The rules are on the screen now for all you viewers out there, to cover the formalities.  They are also available on our website at [spelled out superfast] w-w-w-dot-s-k-i-n-n-e-r-i-d-i-o-t-b-o-x-dot-com.  AMB    FAMILY LIVING ROOM SOUND    CHIPS EATEN FROM BAG ANNOUNCER    [TV] And after this brief message, we'll show you the results of last week's voting. SOUND    CLICK OF REMOTE SOUND    POPCORN POPPING IN MICROWAVE MOM    [off] You better not have turned that off, hun! SOUND    MICROWAVE DINGS DAD    Just muted.  Sick of all these ads for freaking erectile dysfunction.  If anything's going to give a guy man-trouble, it's having to watch all those damn ads. SOUND    POURING POPCORN INTO BOWL SON    Ew, dad.  T-M-I. MOM    [coming in, munching popcorn] The one I hate is that smiling guy.  His wife just looks so scared all the time.  Almost as creepy as the King. SON    Am I adopted?  Please say yes. DAD    Ooops, back on! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Did everyone vote? MOM    I certainly did! SON    Mom?  [disgusted noise] Why? ANNOUNCER    [TV] The voting is closed, the tabulations have been made, and the scores are coming up on the screen now. MOM    [over the announcer] Why not?  I want that nice young girl - the blonde - to win.  She's very wholesome. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And it looks like today Alison has been selected!  MOM    [satisfied] There! ANNOUNCER    We have Alison in the studio now - let's see how she takes it. SOUND     LIGHT MUSIC, ON THE TV SEGUES INTO REALITY ANNOUNCER    Hello Alison!  Say hi to everyone!  ALISON    Hi!  Hi mom!  Dad! ANNOUNCER    How's the first week been treating you? ALISON    This place is great! ANNOUNCER    Throughout the show, we'll be showing some of the fun you four have been having.  Now, why don't you tell me what you think of your new friends? ALISON    Oh, wow - everyone's really great.  ANNOUNCER    Don't you find Bart a bit... isolated? ALISON    He's just self-contained.  I'm sure he's a good guy, he just doesn't open up real easily. ANNOUNCER    And Debbie? ALISON    She's shy - a lot like my sister.  Hi Vickie!! ANNOUNCER    [chuckles] That's great. ALISON    And Carl - well, he's a blast.  He's always thinking up great stuff to do. ANNOUNCER    Yesterday you had sole access to the Dairy Dan Amusement park. ALISON    Oh, man - that was awesome!  They closed the gates and we got to ride all the rides all day long - no lines, no crowds!  Woo! ANNOUNCER    You've been chosen. ALISON    Woo!  [stumbles] I - What?  What? SOUND    CONTROL BOOTH ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Please step into the box. ALISON    [TV - gasp, then steels herself]  Right.  [somewhat bitter] Thanks America. SHELDON That's the shot - tight in on 2, now 3 - yes! Keep her face centered until she shuts the door. TANYA    Got it. SHELDON Okay, keep the volume low on that. It's early yet - don't want to wear out the viewers... SOUND    [TV] ELECTRIC SHOCK NOISE, SOMEWHAT BRIEF ALISON    [TV - short scream] ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back after the break to find out what today's challenge will be. AMB    DORM ROOM JUNE    Omigod!  Omigod!  Did you see that? KATHY    [distracted] Hmm?  No but I sure heard it - did they just do what I think they did? JUNE    They just shocked the crap out of the blonde chick! KATHY    Was there actually crap? JUNE    [duh] She was in the box.  Shh.  It's coming back on. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back with more of The Box after these messages. SOUND    SOUND DOWN AGAIN JUNE    I hate when they do that. KATHY    Shock someone? JUNE    No, have the logo come up and make you think the show is back on. KATHY    Yeah, that's much worse. JUNE    You know what I mean!  It was totally mean that they shocked her - she's the one who got the most votes! KATHY    Isn't that what everyone was voting for? JUNE    No!  At least, I don't think so - I mean, I thought it was voting for who would win something cool.  I ...voted for her. KATHY    You actually voted? JUNE    On the website, yeah. KATHY    Of course there's a website.  Maybe you should read the fine print. JUNE    Oh, oh!  It's back on!  Jeez, look at her poor hair! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] Back to the interview room, to hear from Alison. ANNOUNCER    [real] Before we go on, I need to point out, this is the only time you can choose to leave the show.  Are you prepared to stay? ALISON    [gulps, then quiet]  Yes.  [clears her throat, louder]  Yes.  [very shaky] That wasn't so bad. ANNOUNCER    Excellent.  Now I believe you recently graduated from college, Alison.  What did you get your degree in? AMB    BAR ALISON    [TV]  I'm a liberal arts major, with a minor in art history. FRED    So she's unemployed, eh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  And you are engaged to be married? BOB    Too bad.  All the cute ones are taken.  Even with that weird hairdo. SOUND    TV SWITCHED TO SPORTS FRED    Hey, we were watching that! HELEN    Why?  It's awful, letting them mess with people on TV like that! FRED    [scornful] It's not real.  BOB    Course it is - it even has a website! HELEN    Puh-leez.  Lots of things have websites that aren't real. BOB    Name one. HELEN    Pamela Anderson's boobs. FRED    She got you there, pal. BOB    C'mon - just switch it back long enough to see what today's challenge is?  Please? HELEN    Ya big softie, you. SOUND    TV CHANGES BACK ANNOUNCER    [TV] Carl, you got the second most votes this week - Do you have anything to say to the viewers at home?  Obviously you're doing something right, to get so many votes. CARL    [TV]  I think it's just my sunny personality, Bob.  People like winners, and I am a winner. AMB    LIVING ROOM SON    Weiner. MOM    Language! SON    [dismissive noise] Doesn't that dipstick know that most votes gets zapped? DAD    Maybe he doesn't - they might not tell THEM everything, either.  Makes sense.  Why else would they be so excited? SON    But that sucks!  That sucks big time!  Here they are, trying to be all cool and get people to vote for them, and they're like masterminding their own torture or something. DAD    It's just a game,  No one really gets hurt. MOM    Well, I was kind of upset that Alicia-- SON    Alison. MOM    Yes, that she got shocked.  I didn't know that voting for her would do that.  I kind of feel bad now. SON    Well, don't vote for her next time. MOM    I certainly won't! ANNOUNCER    [on TV] Well, we've spoken to two of our four contestants, and the voting is open for the halftime winner.  Go on line now or text to-- SOUND    TV MUTES, AMB/DORM SOUND    COMPUTER KEYS KATHY    What are you doing? JUNE    Voting. KATHY    Vicious much? JUNE    No! I - I just don't want her to have to get shocked again.  Damn!  It only lets me choose one of those two - not the other guy. KATHY    So you want to see him get shocked? JUNE    Well, no, but I like him the least. KATHY    Just cause you don't think he's cute. SOUND    ONE LAST KEY JUNE    Um, there. KATHY    So who'd you vote for? JUNE    The guy - the nice one - of course.  I like him, too, but I don't want her to get shocked again. SOUND    TV UP AGAIN ANNOUNCER    [TV] Regular text messaging fees apply.  And now‑‑ SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ROLLS IN ANNOUNCER    [TV, ominous] The moment in the spotlight.  Will it be Alison or Carl?  The voting closes in three minutes, so hurry up and make your vote count - if the lines are overloaded, make sure and try back - but be quick.   [normal] While we wait, let's watch some clips from the preliminary interviews with the other two contestants. MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [TV] And what are you studying? DEBBIE    [TV] I'm - um - a poli sci major. FRED    So she's gonna end up unemployed too. BOB    Whatever happened to good old trade schools? FRED    They're still around - just the trades aren't.  You seen any cobblers in the U.S. of A recently?  Nope.  It's all farmed out to Pakistan and Koala Lumper. HELEN    Lumpur. FRED    Sez you. HELEN    I can turn it off, you know. BOB    Yeah - see now Helen here's got a job that can't be farmed out - long as there's guys like us, there's always gonna be bars, eh? FRED    Until they invent a mixology robot. BOB    Hey, the lights are flashing on the screen, must be something important. SOUND    TV TURNED UP. SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC INTENSIFIES ANNOUNCER    [TV; evil "suspense" pacing]  And the one who got the most halftime votes.  Will it be Alison, our stoic liberal arts major? JUNE    Yes, yes - come on come on!!! ANNOUNCER    [TV] Or Carl, who tutors children with learning disabilities. MOM    Oh, that's awful! SON    Awful? That he works with retarded kids? MOM    [almost a whisper] That I voted for him. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And the one who got the most votes in the 8-minute half-time poll was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT ANNOUNCER    [TV] Was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT KATHY    Look at how much she's sweating! JUNE    You'd sweat too if you just got shocked! ANNOUNCER    [TV] is -Carl! JUNE    Whew! KATHY    Shh.  Let's see what happens. ANNOUNCER    [TV] This means that at the end of tonight's show, Carl will be up against the second half winner in a showdown to see who gets a million dollars sent to the charity of their choice. HELEN    Waitaminute - she gets shocked and he gets a chance to win big bucks?  That's so not fair! FRED    That's the way it is.  Women always getting the short stick. HELEN    Especially when they're dating you, eh? BOB    [laughs, tried to stop] FRED    Yeah, yeah - you can joke now, but I'll give you 70-30 odds that the other winner is that other guy. BOB    The grouch? FRED    Yup.  Is it a bet? BOB    Fifty bucks? FRED    Whoah, whoah!  Let's not get carried away here, now. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT ANNOUNCER    Entering week five of The Box, you can see the ratings posted for our four contenders.  [hushed] Last week, it looked as though Debbie had finally broken-- DEBBIE    [TV] I hate it!  I hate you all! You can all just go and-- SOUND    LONG SERIES OF BLEEPED WORDS SOUND    ZAPPING AND SCREAMING UNDER NEXT LINE ANNOUNCER    But after her trip to the box, she refused to cry off. DEBBIE    [TV] [breathing heavily and gulping] No [gasp] way! [gasp]  You don't [gasp] get rid of me [long shaky breath] that easily. [sob] ANNOUNCER    And now, a new week - and what was this week's challenge? STUDIO AUDIENCE Fasting! ANNOUNCER    Yes, fasting.  Whoever could go the longest without eating even a single bite of food got a free pass this week‑‑ ANNOUNCER    [TV] --and we'll find out who managed that in just a moment - after a few words from our sponsors. SOUND    CLICK, SOUND OFF JUNE    [urging] C'mon Debbie! KATHY    Debbie?  Hah.  She's got no body fat to start with.  Bart has a much better chance of surviving-- JUNE    Don't say that!  You just like him cause you know I don't! KATHY    I root for the underdog.  It's a principal. And no one likes that poor bastard. JUNE    If no one likes him, how come Debbie's the one always getting shocked, huh?  [almost a sob] Huh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Let's bring our four contestants out on stage to hear who's going to be free and clear for another week.  Alison-- SOUND    MUSIC UP, DOOR OPENS, SHAKY FOOTSTEPS ANNOUNCER    [real] Alison, how are you feeling? ALISON    [trying to be perky] Not too bad.  I made it almost three whole days on nothing but water.  ANNOUNCER    But then you lost it? ALISON    [heavy sigh] Yeah, I had to give in and get something.  [resigned] I figured fine - just put me in the box.  At least that eventually ends.  ANNOUNCER    Thank you, Alison.  Now go over to the isolation booth while we talk with each of your friends. ALISON    [venomous] Friends?  Hah! ANNOUNCER    [TV, confidential] She needs to learn to be careful about trading today's pain for tomorrow's - what she doesn't know is we've [ramping up] turned the voltage up another notch! AUDIENCE    [TV, CHEERS] HELEN    This just keeps getting worse.  It has to be against the law. BOB    Oh, come on.  They signed waivers, didn't they?  Plus, it's all fake - like wrestling.  Seriously.  Even if they did do this stuff, they have to have doctors and all on staff - make sure no one really gets hurt. SOUND    UNWRAPPING AND OPENING A FORTUNE COOKIE FRED    Hey, listen to this - "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." BOB    Figures the Chinese would think of that first. FRED    Nah.  The Chinese didn't make that up. HELEN    Then who did say it? FRED    [immediate] Thomas Jefferson. BOB    I don't think so. FRED    Yeah?  And who do you think it was? BOB    Some Greek philosopher or other.  [idea] Julius Caesar! HELEN    You guys make your bet, I'll call Jonesy on the next commercial and he can google it. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV]  So Bart, you made it the longest without eating - you have any special tips for the viewers out there on how you did it? BART    [real] Huh? ANNOUNCER    Any tips?  We'll give you a minute - these moments of uncertainty are just further proof that our show is live and unedited.  While Bart ponders this, I'll recap - Alison gave into her craven need for food first, followed by Carl and Debbie - in a virtual photo finish, where Debbie held out for one millisecond longer than Carl.  Good going Debbie! BART    I hate you. ANNOUNCER    Hmm?  What's that? BART    I hate you and all you stand for.  ANNOUNCER    Do I hear an opt-out coming?  For those of you just tuning in, during this episode and this episode alone, any of our four contestants can opt out at any time - not just immediately following a trip into the Box.  So Bart, are you-- SOUND    A BEEP TRIES TO CUT HIM OFF ON THE FIRST WORD BART    Fuck you!  You can't get rid of me that easily.  BART    [TV] I don't care how many times you drug me and try to get me to bow down to the corporate machine!  You and all you people at home - you are sadistic bastards, but I'm here for the long haul - And when I finish, whether I win or not, I will be traveling around the country demanding the pound of flesh each and every one of you bastards owe me!!! KATHY    For god's sake, turn it off. JUNE    No, he's making a valid point.  We shouldn't be party to this. KATHY    The very act of watching it validates it. JUNE    No.  I'm only doing this to bear witness. KATHY    The advertisers don't care.  They just want to you to watch. JUNE    Well, I won't vote any more. KATHY    Then you can't complain when your favorite gets zapped. JUNE    [upset] Oh hell! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Well, that was very enlightening.  Before you out there start emailing and phoning - please refer to clause 42 slash 8 slash F, subsection I-I-I, paragraph y, where it sets out the game's rules covering mental illness or defect.  Thank you, and good night! SOUND    TV TURNED OFF HELEN    Anyone checked out the big pools? FRED    What do you mean? HELEN    There's huge bets all over the place - everyone guessing who's gonna last the longest. BOB    Well, no one's washed out yet. FRED    They're a tough bunch of kids, but I bet I could make it on that show.  Age does bring wisdom. BOB    To who? FRED    You're too young to remember this, but I was a P-O-W in nam [rhymes with "ham"].  I been through it all.  Torture, deprivation, brain washing. HELEN    They sure got yours squeaky clean. SOUND    DRINKS WHOLE BEER DOWN. BOB    Ahhh. MUSIC    ANNOUNCER    This week, week 9 of The Box, we might just lose a second contestant.  ANNOUNCER     [TV] Alison, you've spent three days in this jacuzzi - brought to us courtesy of Big Joe's cut-rate pools and spas.  Now, people might think this was fun, but of course, you can't fall asleep or you might drown!  ALISON    [TV, parched, delirious]  You suck, Bob. FRED    Friend of yours? BOB    You wish. ALISON     [TV]  Get me out. ANNOUNCER    [TV] You do know that whomever leaves their jacuzzi first goes directly into the box? ALISON     [TV] No!  I want out!  OUT!  I can't - you can't make me stay here! JUNE    They can't, can they? KATHY     How much you wanna bet she signed something that says they can? JUNE    That's illegal! KATHY    Being stupid and greedy?  Nah.  They'd run out of prisons.  Unless you subscribe to the idea that our whole world is a prison. JUNE    [very upset] Don't talk like that - look at that poor girl!  They're just dragging her across the stage! KATHY    Wow.  I wouldn't'a thought it would take three guys to handle her, after all the crap she's been through. ALISON    [TV - screaming weakly and struggling] ANNOUNCER    [TV] It is understood, under the rules, that the clemency episode has run out and, once again, the only time you can opt out is right after a session in the box-- SON    If she's all wet, wouldn't that make the shock worse? DAD    At least her hair doesn't end up all weird since they shaved her head after that challenge last week-- SON    Three weeks ago. DAD    Really?  Anyway, they probably compensate somehow. MOM    Are you sure? DAD    [unsure] Well... They can't really hurt her - that would be... ANNOUNCER    [TV]     Oh, and - I've just got a word from the producer!  We've got a three minute vote - so grab your phones!  ANNOUNCER    [real] Now this will cost one dollar per vote, so make yours count!  Dial the studio number and hit 1 if you want us to let Allison forfeit and leave now, push 2 if you think we should hold her to the rules.  And voting opens [beat, then TV] Now! SHELDON Start the positive counter. TANYA    On it.  Running. NARRATOR     [TV] The positive votes will tally right here on the corner of the screen, and if, after the vote closes, there are more positive than negative votes, Alison will  immediately leave the studio - damper but wiser... BOB    Man, I wish I was in Vegas. FRED    Nah - you know what's going to happen.  The odd's'll be crap. HELEN    Course.  They'll let her go. FRED    You gotta lotta faith in people, babe.  Nah.  I'll give you 10 to 1 she's gonna ride the lightning. BOB     [incredulous] "Ride the lightning?" FRED    You know - old sparky. The electric chair?  Man where have you been? BOB    Considering no one's been executed in an electric chair in this state for - um - help me out Helen-- HELEN    50 years. BOB    50 years. FRED    Really? HELEN    How the hell'm I supposed to know? BOB    Well, whatever - a long time.  HELEN    Actually, I think this state always hanged people. FRED    Hung. BOB    The countdown! 5 - 4 - JUNE    3-2- MOM    [almost breathless] One. ANNOUNCER    [TV]  All votes are in, and as you can see, we had a regular landslide of support for our dear friend Allison here.  we have 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes for clemency.  Good for you everyone!  We'll show the other side, right after this-- SOUND    TV OFF DAD    No way! MOM    You can't    ! SON    I won't watch any more of this.  This is brutal. MOM    [angry] Don't you dare!  How can we not ... find out? SON    No. MOM    Just until they announce it - we don't have to watch ...if she... SON    Gets it? SOUND    REMOTE THROWN ONTO TABLE SON    You do what you want.  I'll be in the garage. SOUND    [after a moment] TV CLICKS ON COMMERCIAL    [something] KATHY    I bet the commercials for this cost top dollar.  Like superbowl ads. JUNE    How can you just be so snarky - that girl could die! KATHY    Nah.  They can't do that.  It would be illegal. JUNE    Not normally, but remember when that guy had a stroke on "Danger Island" last year?  The family sued, but the waiver made it perfectly legit.  KATHY    And that wasn't even that exciting. ANNOUNCER    [on TV]  For those just tuning in, we have perky little Allison in the Box, awaiting your verdict.  [continues under] Does she take the next shock, or have you tipped toward clemency for this poor girl? SHELDON Give them the split picture. TANYA    Before and after? SHELDON Uh-huh. [grim] Show them what they did. ANNOUNCER    [on TV] The negative votes have been tallied.  SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [ON TV] And we had 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes to let her go.  BOB    I'm still saying they'll let her off.  FRED    Nope.  You already lost that twenty, pal. HELEN    Shh! ANNOUNCER    [TV] The negative count is seven million three hundred-- SOUND    TV OFF KATHY    Did you vote? JUNE    Yes.  [beat]  Twenty times. KATHY    [shrug] You can't beat the bastards. JUNE    But if everyone just voted a few more times... KATHY    Three million more times. JUNE    How can people be so horrible? SOUND    [NEXT DOOR TV] SCREAMING PEOPLE    [laughing] SOUND    POUNDING ON WALL JUNE    [yelling at them] How can you be so horrible?? KATHY    They're drunk.  Didn't you see the sign? JUNE    [half a sob] Sign? KATHY    The one that said "come to gary's room, get drunk and watch The Box"? JUNE    [down] No. KATHY    Look, turn it on.  You'll see she's not dead or anything, then you'll feel better. JUNE    But what if she's not?  I mean, what if she is?  I mean-- KATHY    [sigh] Then you'll know. SOUND    [beat, then] TV TURNS ON SOUND    [on TV] AMBULANCE SIRENS JUNE    [sob] MOM    [sob] Her poor parents! DAD    Don't worry so much - she's not dead. MOM    She was for 43 seconds. DAD    That doesn't even count these days - happens all the time on House. MOM    [very upset] But this is real! SOUND    [on tv] MUSIC UP ANNOUNCER    [tv]  And we'll be checking in with Allison as soon as she regains consciousness to confirm her wish to opt out.  For now, the game comes down to Bart and Carl.  ANNOUNCER    Don't forget - no matter what happens, the game's big final episode is in two weeks.  SOUND    CAMERA OFF SHELDON Nicely done. ANNOUNCER    It's really wearing me thin. SHELDON Almost over. And after today's vote, there's no way the station can afford to cancel us. ANNOUNCER    [sigh, then grudging] Two more shows.  SHELDON [with meaning] And then we announce the results. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT AMB     NOISY BAR BOB    [ordering] Another one. FRED    Packed tonight. SOUND    DRINK SET DOWN HELEN    It's the finale. FRED    [tired] Oh, yeah.  That. BOB    Bottom's up! HELEN    Slow down, or I'm gonna have to pour you into a cab. SOUND    CAR KEYS SLAPPED ONTO THE BAR, SCOOPED UP SOUND    GLASS SET DOWN HARD BOB    Ahhh. CROWD    ROAR OF EXCITEMENT HELEN    Hold on!  I'll get it. SOUND    TV SOUND UP MUSIC    FANFARE ANNOUNCER    It's the night we've all been waiting for.  The night the final results are announced.  And we will have an ultimate winner.  Let's recap what the winner will walk away with.  SOUND    VOLUME DOWN SOUND    DOOR OPENS KATHY    Oh, you're not watching that, are you?  [sneer] I thought you decided it wasn't worth it! JUNE    [shell shocked] I can't not watch!  I have to know! KATHY    Look, let's go to the library or something. JUNE    No!  I would die of suspense! KATHY    It's not-- SOUND    TV VOLUME COMES UP KATHY    [sigh] I'm not staying. SOUND    DOOR CLOSES ANNOUNCER    And the contest comes down to our two finalists, Bart and Carl.  They have endured amazing hardship to make it this far.  Do you have anything you want to say to the people at home, Bart? BART    You still suck and you always will.  Every single one of you!  Every person who just sits by and supports this shit! ANNOUNCER    [still jovial]  And yet, you have continued to play our sick little games - as you call them - despite being offered chance after chance to leave. BART    Hah!  I don't plan to fucking let you win, you scumbags! ANNOUNCER    Well said.  And you, Carl, do you have anything for the audience? CARL    [mumbles] ANNOUNCER    Speak up? CARL    [vague, reciting] We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.  Sitting by lone sea-- lone sea....  the sea.  The sea.  See see oh playmate, come out and play with me.... [fades out] ANNOUNCER    There you have it, folks.  And now we go to our man in the street interviewer, Tanya.  Take it away! TANYA    Thank you.  I'm in a major metropolitan center here, asking people on the street what they think of the Box. ANNOUNCER    If they're outside right now, instead of glued to their sets, they must not think much of it. BOTH    [fake laugh] SOUND    TV OFF SOUND    EATING MOM    What?  Don't you dare! DAD    Hey, we were watching that! SON    Are you enjoying this? MOM    Enjoying? DAD    What do you mean? SON    All this shit they've put those people through!  You can barely tell them apart now, after they've been starved and had their heads shaved.  They look like concentration camp victims! MOM    But - but this is the last show! DAD    What does it matter if we watch or don't watch? SOUND    THROWING DOWN A REMOTE SON    Do what you want.  I'll just hope for a six-car pileup.  Maybe you'll trade up. SOUND    DOOR OPENS AND SHUT SOUND    REMOTE TAKEN, TV ON ANNOUNCER    And for tonight, the big surprise is-- SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    Two boxes! SOUND    CANNED CHEERING ANNOUNCER    One for each of you.  While we get them all set, here's a word from our sponsor! AMB    BAR CROWD    Buzzing "two boxes?" BOB    [slurry] Whaddaya think they've got up their shleeves? FRED    They're gonna kill one of those boys. HELEN    [confidential] I heard that girl Allison is in a private clinic, barely alive. FRED    Where'd you--? HELEN    Internet.  BOB    [sarcastic]  Yeah.  Then it's probably true. SOMEONE    Turn it up! HELEN    Got it! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    And now.  The moment of truth!  All the votes have been tallied.  As you can see, we have Bart over here in the red box-- SOUND    CANNED APPLAUSE ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and Carl over there in the blue. SHELDON close up on Bart, camera 2. Yeah, baby, clench that jaw.  Now cut to that trickle of sweat on Carl's face.  Nice. TANYA    Back to the announcer? SHELDON One more second, and - yes! ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now, with the votes tallied, we will find out who you out there have selected as the big winner, and who has to take the big penalty.  ANNOUNCER    [real] But first, we caught each of our contestants here on secret camera last night.  Let's see what they were doing on the penultimate night. SOUND    QUICK JAB OF STATIC VOICE    [tv] ...need to get out now.  You don't understand what they have planned for tomorrow.  It's so much worse! AMB    BAR BOB    Who the hell izzat? BART    [TV] [scoff] Worse?  Worse how? HELEN    Don't know.  FRED    Look at that announcer fellow - he's surprised too.  HELEN    [half a chuckle]  Serves him right. ANNOUNCER    [tv] Sorry - we should have screened that clip before playing it.  Let's go over to Carl's shot. CARL    [tv] Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall--[cuts out suddenly] ANNOUNCER    [tv] And that's all the time we have for that.  And now the moment of truth.  Carl or Bart?  You held their fate in your hands. SOUND    COMMERCIAL COMES ON UNDER MOM    [coming in]  Where's Kyle?  Have you seen Kyle? DAD    [mesmerized]  He'll be back.  Just ... went out to a friend's house.  Probably. MOM    You should turn that off and find him! DAD    We can look in ten minutes just as easily as we can look now! MOM    This is our son! DAD    It's almost over! SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ON TV ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now.  The final countdown. MOM    Five minutes. SOUND    SHE SITS ANNOUNCER     [tv]  This has been quite a journey for everyone - and we would like to thank you all for your support and participation. BOB    Support?  I'd shoot that stupid bastard if I had a chance.  And a gun. HELEN    You're not the only one, but a lot of people paid a lot of money into that damn show. ANNOUNCER    [tv] --making us the highest rated network series ever-- FRED    yeah, and even WE count for ratings, since we happen to be watching it. BOB    [steaming into an alcoholic rage] Then let's not watch it! SOUND    SLAMS GLASS ON BAR, LIQUID SLOSHES FRED    Calm down, pal. BOB    No! Is this what our world has come to?  This crap?? SOUND    THROWS BEER GLASS AT TV, TV DIES, BUT OTHER SET PLAYS ON IN THE BACKGROUND CROWD    [Shocked silence] FRED    Great, one down, only seven hundred million TV sets to go. HELEN    I'll put it on your tab. CROWD     [chatter begins again] ANNOUNCER    [tv] --will definitely be returning for a second season, starting next fall-- SOUND    DOOR OPENS ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and we're looking at celebrity contestants.  TANYA    [tv]  That will be a whole new ballgame. KATHY    Sorry, didn't know it was still on. JUNE    [distraught] Stay.  Please. KATHY    Ugh.  Why? JUNE    Because I don't think I'll make it otherwise. KATHY    Make what? ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now for the final outcome.  MOM    Yes? DAD    About time. ANNOUNCER    [tv]  the final results. FRED    Don't call the police.  I'll get him home. HELEN    Yeah.  This time. ANNOUNCER    [tv] What we've all been working toward. JUNE    [crying] Can't they just say it? TV, MUSIC SWELLS, THEN CUTS OUT SUDDENLY JUNE    What? HELEN    Shit, must have blown the circuit. DAD    The electricity's still on! KATHY    Is there something wrong with your TV? MOM    No!  It's practically new! FRED    Come on.  Quitting time, pal. SOUND    TEST PATTERN NOISE, THEN MUSIC SUDDENLY CUTS BACK IN ANNOUNCER    Thank you all for participating in our experiment.  MOM    [gasp] ANNOUNCER    As you can see, all of our actors are in perfect health. JUNE    [sob]  How could they--? KATHY    Bastards. ANNOUNCER    We would love to hear your reactions to this show.  Please feel free to leave us a message at www-dot- SOUND    TV SWITCHES OFF HELEN     [last call voice] Allright.  That's it. CLOSER   [NOTE:  George Santayana, author of the quote.]

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Conversation with Eliezer: What do you want the system to do?, published by Akash on June 25, 2022 on LessWrong. This is a write-up of a conversation I overheard between Eliezer and some junior alignment researchers. Eliezer reviewed this and gave me permission to post this, but he mentioned that "there's a lot of stuff that didn't get captured well or accurately." I'm posting it under the belief that it's better than nothing. TLDR: People often work on alignment proposals without having a clear idea of what they actually want an aligned system to do. Eliezer thinks this is bad. He claims that people should start with the target (what do you want the system to do?) before getting into the mechanics (how are you going to get the system to do this?) I recently listened in on a conversation between Eliezer and a few junior alignment researchers (let's collectively refer to them as Bob). This is a paraphrased/editorialized version of that conversation. Bob: Let's suppose we had a perfect solution to outer alignment. I have this idea for how we could solve inner alignment! First, we could get a human-level oracle AI. Then, we could get the oracle AI to build a human-level agent through hardcoded optimization. And then-- Eliezer: What do you want the system to do? Bob: Oh, well, I want it to avoid becoming a mesa-optimizer. And you see, the way we do this, assuming we have a perfect solution to outer alignment is-- Eliezer: No. What do you want the system to do? Don't tell me about the mechanics of the system. Don't tell me about how you're going to train it. Tell me about what you want it to do. Bob: What. what I want it to do. Well, uh, I want it to not kill us and I want it to be aligned with our values. Eliezer: Aligned with our values? What does that mean? What will you actually have this system do to make sure we don't die? Does it have to do with GPUs? Does it have to do with politics? Tell me what, specifically, you want the system to do. Bob: Well wait, what if we just had the system find out what to do on its own? Eliezer: Oh okay, so we're going to train a superintelligent system and give it complete freedom over what it's supposed to do, and then we're going to hope it doesn't kill us? Bob: Well, um.. Eliezer: You're not the only one who has trouble with this question. A lot of people find it easier to think about the mechanics of these systems. Oh, if we just tweak the system in these ways-- look! We've made progress! It's much harder to ask yourself, seriously, what are you actually trying to get the system to do? This is hard because we don't have good answers. This is hard because a lot of the answers make us uncomfortable. This is hard because we have to confront the fact that we don't currently have a solution. This happens with start-ups as well. You'll talk to a start-up founder and they'll be extremely excited about their database, or their engine, or their code. And then you'll say “cool, but who's your customer?” And they'll stare back at you, stunned. And then they'll say “no, I don't think you get it! Look at this-- we have this state-of-the-art technique! Look at what it can do!” And then I ask again, “yes, great, but who is your customer?” With AI safety proposals, I first want to know who your customer is. What is it that you actually want your system to be able to do in the real-world? After you have specified your target, you can tell me about the mechanics, the training procedures, and the state-of-the-art techniques. But first, we need a target worth aiming for. Questions that a curious reader might have, which are not covered in this post: Why does Eliezer believe this? Is it never useful to have a better understanding of the mechanics, even if we don't have a clear target in mind? Do the mechanics of the system always depend on its target?...

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating a More Romantic MarriageDay 1 of 8 Guest:                            Dennis Rainey From the Series:         The Most Romantic Thing________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Music:             Bob:                And, welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast.  I did it yesterday; I went ahead and declared this the year of romance in my marriage.   Dennis:          All right. Bob:                So, we're going to kick off a year-long romantic adventure.  Dennis:          Should we call Mary Anne right now and see how you did on day one? Bob:                I don't know. Dennis:          We'll save that for a little later.  All right?  You know, I ran across something that, even though it's the day after Valentine's Day, I found it fascinating to go back and look at, really, the historical significance of this day.  Valentine was a Pagan priest who lived in the third century.  He was not a Christian, but he really found it very difficult to stomach that these Christians were being persecuted.  He put his foot down – so much so that they threw him into prison.  While he was in prison, he converted to Christianity and was asked to renounce his faith.  He didn't.  He stayed in prison for a long time.  One historian said that during his last days, Valentine often thought of his family and friends who were not allowed to come visit him.  Tradition has it that in order to communicate his love, he would reach out his window bars and pick the violets which grew outside.  He then pierced the heart-shaped leaves with a message like “Remember your Valentine.”  Then he sent the message home with some homing pigeons supplied by his family.  Toward the end of his life, the message changed to a simple “I love you.”  Finally, when he refused to renounce his faith in Christ, Valentine was clubbed to death in his cell February 14, 268 A.D.  You know, that's interesting that yesterday is a day that we celebrate love, but so much of the world's celebration of this love is not from an agape - God's love for us, which caused us to love him.  Instead, it's a narcissistic kind of love.  You know, if anybody ought to have the right kind of love on Valentine's Day, or for that matter, throughout the year, it ought to be Christians. Bob:                Yeah.  I would hope that over the last two and a half weeks, Dennis, as you and Barbara have shared on this series and on this subject of romance, that message has come crystal clear – that the foundation for romance in marriage has got to be the solid commitment between a husband and a wife.  If for any reason folks have not been able to be with us over the last two and a half weeks, I would encourage them to get the cassette tapes of these broadcasts, and together, with their spouse, listen to this discussion on romance.  It will give them an opportunity to interact over what romance ought to be in marriage. Dennis:          I really agree.  I think a lot of times in marriage, we really miss each other because we're communicating what communicates love to us, not what communicates love to my wife.  There are a lot of men who would really benefit from hearing Barbara talk straight about what a woman is looking for in romance from her husband. Bob:                Or, from hearing you talk straight to women about how men view romance.  If you're interested in getting this cassette series, call us toll free at 1-800-FL-TODAY.  We'll get you the information you need. Dennis:          Well, I'm excited about today because we're going to give our listeners the privilege of hearing the most creative ideas we've been able to gather from our FamilyLife marriage conference speaker team, from our FamilyLife staff here in Little Rock, and from some of our FamilyLife marriage conference messages that have been given over the past year.  What I would encourage you to do right now, if you're driving, pull out a 3 by 5 card or open your daytimes; or if you're at home, get yourself a piece of paper and a pencil, because you're going to hear at least a half dozen ideas that you ought to be able to use at some point in your marriage over the coming year. Bob:                If you're driving, please write these down only at stoplights when you come to an appropriate point. Dennis:          That's right.  There could be liability back here against FamilyLife Today. Bob:                Well, we kick things off with someone from our staff, Lance Coffman, sharing about the most romantic birthday he ever had. Lance:            “Yesterday was my birthday, and it was a very special time.  Just to show you how special I felt… I guess, to sum it up, she was thinking of me throughout the whole time.  What I mean by that, is Sunday she took me to the Macaroni Grill.  But, see, it was a gift certificate given to her, and it was just a special time that she would take that to spend on me for my birthday lunch.  She said, ‘Okay.  That's a [unintelligible] of what's to come.'  Anyway, we went to bed that night.  I woke up the next morning and went to the bathroom, and plastered all over the mirror was posters:  ‘Happy Birthday, Lance.  Happy Birthday, No. 30.'  Then she gave me a card and a present.  Then she cooked me breakfast.  I was off to work.  Around 10:30, the guys called me over, and Denise brought some oatmeal cookies.  They sang me ‘Happy Birthday,' and I went back to work.  But, Denise, said, ‘Lance, call me before you come home.'  I said, ‘Okay.'  So, I called her before I came home, saying ‘I'm coming home.'  So, I come home, and there's a note on the door.  It's around 5:15.  I don't leave work early.  The note said, ‘Lance, ring the doorbell before you come in.'  See, usually, I just come in.  This time, I was going to ring the doorbell.  So, I rang the doorbell, and Denise opens the door.  She's in a black tuxedo with tails.  She goes, ‘Mr. Coffman, happy birthday.  Your dinner's ready.'” Woman:         “This happened on Valentine's Day last year, when I'd asked Jeff to stop at the store and get me some groceries.  I really think that he forgot it was Valentine's Day, and I'd been on the phone with my friend.  She got flowers and a little necklace.  I thought to myself, ‘I know he forgot, and I'm not going to get anything.'  He came home from the grocery store, sat me down on the table and had this big bag of groceries.  He made me sit down, and he proceeded to take one thing out at a time.  It was all these different kinds of fruits and all these different groceries.  The ones that I remember in my mind was… As he took each item out, he'd say something sweet to me.  He grabbed the apple out, and he said, ‘Honey, you're the apple of my eye.'  He sat it on the table.  He grabbed the diapers out and said, ‘I love to get Huggies from you.'  He set it on the table.  He had a pear, and he put that on the table and said, ‘We're such a great pair.'  He had a little jar of that honey bear, and he said to me, ‘Your kisses drip with honey.'  Then, there was a little carton of milk, and he said, ‘I want to milk every moment God's given me with you.'  Then, the last thing I do remember that he pulled out of the bag was a whole bunch of bananas, and he said he wanted to go peel my clothes off.” Woman:         “Well, I just have to share with you how Dan totally outdid himself for my birthday this last year.  The media department knows all about it.  I've never, ever in all my years of marriage, and we've been married 21 years, ever been kept totally in surprise of a surprise.  Anyway, it was my birthday.  The morning of my birthday, Haman Cross was supposed to come in to be with student venture at [unintelligible], so the setting was so natural.  Dan was home.  We were going to take off to go together to the school and spend the morning there and everything.  For some reason, that morning… Usually we have our celebration at night, but we had this big breakfast in the morning, all decorated and everything.  The kids had helped him with it.  I thought, ‘Oh, well.  Yeah.  Tonight we have a meeting, so this is probably their celebration.'  Anyway, I had my birthday celebration and got to the school and all.  Dan just whispered in my ear while Haman Cross was speaking, ‘I have a package that has to get to the airport.'  He said, ‘It has to be there by such and such a time, so we need to leave just a little bit early.  Then I'll take you out to dinner.'  I thought, ‘Yeah.'  We don't get a whole lot of time just to spend relaxing over a dinner.  I was really excited about that.  We got up, we left early, got to the airport; and there was this package sitting between us on the way out to the airport.  I thought, ‘This is kind of strange,' but I know that he has all kind of strange errands to do, so I didn't really question it.  We got to the airport, and I watched him go to try to check it in.  I went to look at some magazines.  He came back, and he said, ‘Oh, it's going to be another half hour.  I can't check it in for another half hour.'  So, we went and got ice cream.  I thought, ‘This is going to ruin our lunch together.  Should we really be eating this?'  He goes, ‘Oh, it's fine.  You'll still have room for something else.'  So, anyway, it got to be about five minutes before the time, and he walked me over to this airlines.  I just thought he was going to put the box on the counter.  He sat me down, and he handed me the box.  I go, ‘What is this?'  I didn't have a clue what was going on.  I open the box, and in there was a gift bag just full of my favorite magazines, candy bars, a card from each one of the kids, a card from him.  I opened the card from him, and there was spending money and then a ticket to California to visit my best friend in California.  And, I totally lost it.  I cried.  I said, ‘I can't leave my agenda for this week.'  It was just packed with all kinds of really important events and everything.  I just said, ‘The girls can't do without me.'  ‘They can do without you, dear.  Honest.  Leave it with me.'  So, anyway, it took me until St. Louis to gain composure and stop crying.  The guy that sat next to me thought I was just totally out to lunch.  He couldn't understand.  I couldn't even gain composure to tell him what had happened.  Anyway, that is the biggest surprise, and it was a wonderful birthday.” Man:               “A few years ago, I had to leave my wonderful wife for about a month on a trip in Europe.  She, of course, helped me remember the things to pack, and we had a list to check off.  The first night that I was there, I opened my suitcase, and I found a large manila envelope.  In the envelope, there were smaller envelopes with each date that I would be gone.  As I went through that trip for a month, every evening I had a different envelope to open with some very sweet little poems or some Snickers bars or something else.  She had gone to all the trouble to think about the whole 30 days I'd be gone and to just communicate things to keep us close, at least in spirit.” Man:               “Letter B.  A wife feels cherished when there is romance in the relationship - little things and little comments.  You and I don't care if our wife says, ‘You sure look nice,' but our wives care very much if we would say, ‘Sweetheart, that really does you justice.  You really look good in hot pink or navy blue' or whatever – things that would never occur to us, but it means a lot to them to hear us express it.  You figure it out.  Learn to speak woman, because her needs are different.  One day, I remember thinking of my wife.  I lived out… We lived out on the east side of town, and the hospital that I had to make a pastoral call in was in the middle of town.  The town center - the shopping center where Linda was working at the time to help keep the boys in college was in between.  I thought, ‘I'm going to express my love for Linda.'  I stopped at Safeway on the way.  I grabbed one of those rosebud things (it probably cost me $5.00) and a card.  The card probably cost $5.00 too.  I knew where she parked her car because I'd been in the parking lot.  I grabbed the key, I opened the car door, I put the rosebud on the console between the seats and slipped the card on the seat.  I shut the car and locked it and went off about my pastoral call and back to work.  That evening we had a conversation about that little episode.  I said, ‘What did you think when you saw that there?'  She said, ‘Well, I started to put my key in the car, and I saw somebody had been in my car.  I knew it couldn't have been you.  So I checked behind the seat to make sure nobody was lurking there.'  Then, she said, ‘I opened the door, I appreciated the rose, I opened the card.'  She began to cry over a card that cost me $3.00.  One day… Friday was a day off.  I finally got a day off, and she was working that morning, but a half day.  So, I knew she'd be home around noon.  I figured, ‘Well, what would she do if she were there and if our roles were reversed?'  If I'd have looked through her lenses, she would fix lunch.  ‘I'll fix lunch.'  I don't do lunch.  When I go hunting with the guys, it's donut holes and milk.  We don't cook.  You know?  But, I thought, ‘what would Linda do?'  Well, she would not have lunch on the regular kitchen table because that's just the hoy paloy table.  She would have lunch in the dining room.  That means more to her – the dining room.  It's special.  So, I set the dining room table with the china, because you don't use the stoneware; you use the china when you're trying to give a message, at least you do when you're a woman.  So, I'm trying to learn to speak this language.  I set the china on the table.  Now, the real challenge.  You've got to put food on it.  I don't do much food, but I figured tuna fish.  I can handle tuna fish.  China and tuna.  It didn't matter.  It was an effort.  She understands.  So, I got some tuna, and I put it on half of an English muffin, and I set it on the plate.  It looked really bad.  You know, big china plate, little English muffin, and a pile of tuna.  I remembered on Sunday nights after church, she'll sometimes do that, and she'll melt some cheese with some pineapple and stuff and that sort of thing.  It looked a little bit better.  It still wasn't too cool, but it was a little bit better.  When she came in, she was overwhelmed.  She was absolutely overwhelmed.  She was struck by that.  The power of a woman to respond is incredible.  I would say we had the most powerful session of lovemaking that we had had in years, all because I was trying to learn to speak the language.  I wasn't doing it for the selfish reason of her responding like that.  That was a gift she gave to me, you see, with no strings attached.” Woman:         “[Unintelligible] when he's kind of quiet and creative both.  So, the things that I want to share fit both of those.  First of all, Blaine designed my wedding rings.  We had a friend that was a jeweler, and he carved them out of a piece of wax and had the jeweler cast the gold and set the diamond for us.  He totally surprised me with that.  I wasn't expecting it.  He didn't get the same thing.  I'm not quite that creative.  And, a few years ago, on Valentine's, we had, as many young couples do, struggled with finances.  Every year, we kept cutting out one more gift that we gave each other.  So, Valentine's was one that we decided we'd have to cut out.  That year, I wasn't expecting anything but maybe a card.  He bought one of those blank books that's bound.  Now, every year at Valentine's, he writes me a love letter.  That was really sweet.  Very special.  Something neat for our kids some day.” Woman:         “My husband brings me home flowers all the time.  He does laundry when I don't need it done.  He just does it.  But, one of the things that popped to my mind was he gave me the privilege of having two of his children.  And, over the years, I thought a lot about how much he does for me and how much he loves me.  But, the most romantic thing he's ever done is he's allowed me to have the privilege of being his wife and the mother of his children.  There isn't a day that goes by that he doesn't in some way express his love to me, whether it's doing the little things or whether it's doing the big things or whether it's bringing home flowers.  But, he does it every day.  For me, that's the most romantic thing my husband can do for me.” Bob:                Well, what a treat.  We've been listening together to members of our FamilyLife marriage conference speaker team and folks who are on the staff here at FamilyLife, all of these folks sharing about romance in their marriage.  I think this is a fitting conclusion to the last two and a half weeks as we've tried to peel back our hearts a little bit and look inside to see how we can re-ignite the romantic spark in marriage.   Dennis:          What we've talked about here is that romance is a need that every marriage has.  Men need romance because they need to be needed.  They need to be needed sexually by their wives, they need to be attracted to their wives, and they need their wives to be attracted to them.  Women need romance because they need a relationship with their husband, and they want a relationship with him.  They want to be courted and pursued by their husbands.  I think all too often, this is one area of the marriage relationship that we don't pay attention to.  So, it's no mistake that the fires begin to go out, and the coals grow cold.  A marriage ought to be a place that has excitement, fun and romance and some intrigue about it. Bob:                I think there are two things we can recommend to couples, Dennis, as a way to breath some romantic life back into a marriage.  One of them is the collection that we put together called “Simply Romantic.”  That was put together specifically to give couples a plan, give them a tool, give them something that they can use in their marriage relationship, some practical help for making romance come alive.  Frankly, all of us need that kind of help from time to time. Dennis:          Yeah.  We're a culture that kind of gets into games.  Although this isn't a game, it is a collection in a box.  We've got it right here in front of us.  It's got some cards just for men that help men communicate romance to their wives, fresh ideas for every month of the year.  Then, it's got some cards for the wife; again, ideas for each month that she can use to communicate romance to her husband.  It's got a little checklist that a guy can fill out on his wife.  I went shopping last Christmas, and I was thinking, “What size is Barbara?  Is it an 8 or a 6 that she wears in this one particular garment here?”  If I'd have had this little thing right here, Bob, this would have saved me a lot of trouble.  It's got love notes.  It's got a booklet that I've written on why romance is important to every marriage.  It's got mood music on a cassette tape on one side, and then on the other side, it's got ideas from our FamilyLife marriage conference speaker team where they shared the best ideas that they've ever had in their marriages to communicate romance to their spouses. Bob:                Yeah, like the ideas that we featured on the broadcast today.  We also have a questionnaire that a husband and wife can fill out that kind of is an inventory.  It's a romantic analysis of your mate.  It gives you an opportunity to understand them better in this critical area.  Really, you mentioned it's not a game, but it kind of feels like a game.  It's fun for couples to do this, and it gives them a way to bring romance alive.  I think sometimes ten years in or fifteen years into the marriage, you feel a little awkward trying to make romance come alive in your marriage. Dennis:          Okay.  Okay.  Okay.  Here's one of the cards that says, “For February – romancing your wife.”  Now, I'm hoping your wife is not listening to the broadcast right now. Bob:                This would be things that husbands can do that would… Dennis:          This is something you're going to do for Mary Anne this month.  I'm going to see which one of these you'd choose.  Idea number one:  “Tell your wife that being close to her still excites you.”  Hello.  Idea number two.  Well, it's too late for this one because it says, “On Valentine's Day, buy a pad of PostIt notes and write a brief message to your wife on each page.  Hide them in different places where she will find them.”  Oh, you did that before. Bob:                I've already done that one.  Dennis:          And she's still finding some of those notes in recipe books and other things.  That's a great idea.  Idea number three:  “Volunteer to do all the ironing for a week.”  Now, how is it I can't picture that right there?  Idea number four:  “Plan a romantic evening.  Dine at a nice restaurant, and then go to the theater or ballet.”  Hey, that's a good idea.  Idea number five:  “Have a bubble bath and favorite music.  Have a bubble bath and favorite music, or a book ready for your wife after she's had an especially hard day.  Then give her a massage.”  Now… You know, all of those are relationship builders. Bob:                I think I'll do all of them, except maybe that ironing thing.  I'm going to have to pray about that one.  Well, listen, if you're interested in getting a copy of “Simply Romantic,” simply call us here at FamilyLife Today.  The phone number is 1-800-FL-TODAY.  It's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY.  The cost for this collection is $19.95, plus $3.00 for shipping and handling.  In addition to this collection, as I mentioned earlier, we also have audiotapes of this entire series available.  If you're interested in that, you can call us.  We also have other resources – a whole collection of books that are helpful tools for couples who want to build a more romantic marriage.  When you call, ask what resources are available to help with the maybe specific romantic needs you have in your marriage.  You can call us, again, toll free, 1-800-FL-TODAY.  Or, if you'd prefer to write, our address is FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  And our zip code is 72221.  When you call or write, please remember FamilyLife Today is a listener supported broadcast, and we appreciate those of you who stand with us with our financial needs for the ongoing work of this ministry.                          Well, tomorrow and Friday, Dennis, we're going to continue to talk about romantic feelings, but we're going to talk about what happens when they become misdirected.  Lois Raby [sp] is going to join us in the studio to talk about the snare that is laying in wait for men and women all across this culture. Dennis:          Don't miss these days with Lois Raby. Bob:                I hope you can join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock; our host Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a Ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 8 of 8 Guest:                            Dennis Rainey From the Series:         A Man's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  Happy Valentine's Day.  We're talking about romance on the broadcast today, I hope you can stay with us. (Music:  "My Funny Valentine")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the broadcast as we continue looking at the subject of romance and, once again today, because of the nature of what we're going to be talking about, it may be inappropriate for younger listeners to be joining us.  Parents may want to use some discretion because we're talking about how men look at romance and, as you've said over the last couple of days, Dennis, men look at it – not exclusively – but primarily from the aspect of the sexual relationship.  In fact, on yesterday's broadcast, you mentioned that it is a wise woman who will assume some responsibility for affirming her husband in his sexuality.  You also talked about the fact that a lot of men don't understand themselves their need for the sexual relationship, and then you talked about how a man needs to be needed and needs to know that his wife desires him. Dennis:          Yeah, and even as you're going through that list we talked about yesterday – just revisiting that – you know, it feels risky to me, as a man, to talk to women about their husband's need sexually and certainly we're making some generalizations here that don't apply to every man, because God has made men differently, but I don't think we're too much off the mark when it comes to what men really desire from their wives.                         You know, I have counseled and interacted with men over the past 18 years at hundreds of FamilyLife Marriage Conferences, and their word to me, as you approach this subject, speaking to women, is "Just tell them how we feel.  Help us communicate to our wives what's going on inside of us," because I don't have a vested interest here.  I'm just after healthy marriages that are following Jesus Christ because I think our God made the sexual dimension of the marriage relationship. Bob:                And so a healthy marriage will necessarily involve a healthy sexual relationship. Dennis:          Yeah, and you would think Americans would be able to talk about this subject of sex, especially speaking to wives about their husband's sexuality, but I don't think it's that easy for wives to hear or for men to talk about.  Now, we're more comfortable talking about it in public, but really getting down past the superficial, down to the deep core issues, especially as it relates to a man's sexuality, I think that is very threatening for couples to discuss. Bob:                What do you think are some of those core issues for a husband or a wife? Dennis:          Well, I think a wife needs to know that her husband is not as strong and confident as he appears to be.  Now, he may look assertive, but in reality, most men, I think, when it comes to the sexual side of their relationship with their spouse, are unsure.  I think it's because we're marrying today without any clear passage into manhood.  For most men the passage from boyhood to manhood occurs when we get married, but in many cultures that passage has already occurred, and a young man has already had the opportunity to grapple with the issue of manhood and his sexuality.  But when men get married today, that's when they're confronted with the issue of performing sexually in marriage, and I think a lot of married men are really afraid of failing when it comes to the physical side of marital love. Bob:                What is it about these mystical passages that you refer to for a man?  Why are they so significant?  And what if a man has missed one? Dennis:          Well, I'll never forget a young man that became a close friend of mine over a period of time, and he'd grown up in a home where his father had deserted him as a young lad.  And as he began to have children and emerge as a husband in this new relationship with his wife, I could tell, from time to time, there was nothing on the screen that he could pull up by way of a memory of what a man ought to do or be or act like with his wife or with his kids as a man.  I mean, he didn't have that model, that mentor.                         And so I took that young man fishing one time, and in the darkness of that car as we drove to the fishing spot, which was an overnight trip, I began to talk to him about the passage from being a young man, moving on into manhood, and I told him – and I'll call him Chuck – I said, "Chuck, I want to bless you as a man, and I want you to know that, having observed you over the past four or five years, you own all the rights and privileges as a man, and I want you to know anytime you wonder what you're to do, how you're to behave, how you're to perform as a man, I want you to feel free to come back to me, because I want you to know, from this day forward, as an older man to a younger man, I want you to know that I am declaring and recognizing you and the full rights and privileges of manhood."                         You know, it was a number of months later that I got a phone call back from that young man, and he said, "You know, Dennis, it was interesting.  I did not realize what was occurring in the car that night until a few months later.  But now as I approach my roles and responsibilities of a man, I feel different about myself than I have in the past."                           And I think, to those women who may be looking at their husbands and looking at a young man who may feel very insecure or maybe an older man who is still driven out of his own insecurity, you know, you may be able to be an affirming part of his transition to manhood on a daily basis.  I think how a woman responds to a man sexually is a crowning celebration of a man's manhood.  I think a woman who is looking at a man, and she's feeling powerless to help him, perhaps needs to pray that God will bring older mentors into his life and perhaps encourage her husband to pursue some of them and maybe even ask for this blessing – perhaps ask them what he needs to become, what he needs to do, how he needs to act to be recognized as a man. Bob:                A woman may not be able to do what a father could have done for a son, but she can play a significant part in helping to supplement what may be missing. Dennis:          Yeah.  I'll say this about Barbara – when we were first married, there was a sense in which she affirmed me as a young man emerging into a mature man, and we've said on many occasions, I wasn't fully a man when I got married.  She finished the job of the transition from boyhood to manhood.  And it's the wise woman who realizes that when she gets married she may be marrying a boy in certain areas of his life.  He may have immaturities where he has not grown up and simply needs the belief, the affirmation, the support, the respect that only someone who knows him well and who loves him most can provide. Bob:                And romance and sexuality are tools, they're assets, for her, aren't they? Dennis:          They are, and it's the woman who understands that her response to her husband at that point is a crowning affirmation.  I don't know how to say it with any more dignity.  It is a very, very important part for a young man to feel affirmed by his wife.  George Gilder, in his book, "Men and Marriage," makes a great statement.  He says, "Women are puzzled by men's continual attempts to prove their manhood or ritualistically affirm it." Bob:                What is it, Dennis, about sexual performance that is affirming to a man's masculinity? Dennis:          Well, let me let George Gilder make a stab at this from his book, because he really states it clearly, as a sociologist, to help us better understand what's going on inside a man.  He writes, "Men must perform.  There is no shortcut to human fulfillment for men – just the short circuit of impotence.  Men can be creatively human only when they are confidently male and overcome their sexual insecurity by action."  Now listen to this next statement – "Nothing comes to them by waiting or being."  A man's got to initiate, and do you feel the risk that's there for a man as he initiates?  What's the woman's response?  He can't control it. Let me read on what Gilder says, "In general, therefore, the man is less secure sexually than the woman, because his sexuality is dependent on action, and he can act sexually only through a precarious process difficult to control.  Fear of impotence and inadequacy is a paramount fact of male sexuality.  For men, the desire for sex is not simply a quest for pleasure.  It is an indispensable test of identity."                         Now, did you hear that?  It is a test for a man to feel like a man, and when a wife can latch onto that idea, and she understands what is at risk for a man at that point, you know what?  The lights go on inside of here where, all of a sudden, she can now exercise the mystical powers God has given her in the marriage relationship for the health and the well being of the man.  Now, am I overstating the sex act for the man?  From the men I've talked to, I don't think so.  I think this is a core issue for men today.                         One last statement that Gilder writes about that I've got to read – he writes, "Unless men have an enduring relationship with a woman, a relationship that affords him sexual confidence, men will accept almost any convenient sexual offer."  Now, think about it.  Isn't that what the New Testament is trying to move men away from?  Isn't that what Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 7?  Because of immoralities let each man have a wife and please his wife?  I think so.  I think God recognizes that the way he has wired men today that they are susceptible in the marketplace to what Solomon warned his son about – that woman in the red light district who woos a man away from his home and offers him instant satisfaction – what's he trying to find there?  What's he trying to prove?  I think that man is trying to prove his masculinity. Bob:                Yeah, so it's less about sex and more about who a man is.  That's really what's behind it all, isn't it? Dennis:          That's exactly right, and let me just say here – it is not just the act of intercourse that makes a man a man.  If you read Song of Solomon, where the woman affirmed him, she started with his character.  What caused her to be attracted to him as a man was that he was a man above reproach.  He had integrity.  She had seen his character develop.  She talked about it being like olive oil being refined, which had to be crushed and go through a series of rocks so it could be purified.  That's the picture of a man becoming like Jesus Christ.  But you know what?  There are a lot of men today who are running around trying to prove their manhood outside of marriage through the sex act, and that doesn't make 'em a man at all. That's wrong.  God intended marriage to be the place where two people become one. Bob:                Well, you know, as you said, some of this may be difficult for both a man and a woman to hear, but you wouldn't be saying it if you didn't feel it was a critical part of the marriage relationship. Dennis:          Yeah, and, again, we're just talking straight about how to make a marriage last for a lifetime, and your husband wants you to approve of his physical and sexual approach to marital love – it's more than okay, it's good.  It's been given by God, designed by the Creator of the universe.  He made us different, and a woman is more relational, a man is more sexual.  One is not better than the other.  They were meant to complement one another.                         And I think what happens is the man is intended to deny his sexual needs, to love his wife relationally, and in the process of that he learns self-denial, and he learns sacrificial love.  I think also the same sacrificial act occurs by the wife on behalf of her husband.  Sometimes she has to be willing to give up some of her own emotional needs being met but I believe, again, it's the wise woman who can say to her husband, "Thank God you, as a man, are made the way you're made.  I welcome you as my man." Bob:                Dennis, don't you think the way the culture portrays the sex act has left a lot of Christians unable to separate the inappropriate way it's presented from the very appropriateness that God built into it? Dennis:          I think what God designed and has sought to protect by grace, the world has taken and integrated it and has twisted it and perverted it, and what results from that is shame.  But what God intends for us to experience in the marriage bed, he said it was good.                           I mean, think back to the Song of Solomon – in fact, let me just read a portion from that book, and this is King Solomon describing the Shulamite woman, his bride's body – "How beautiful your sandaled feet, O princess daughter.  Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands.  Your navel is like a round goblet, which never lacks blended wine.  Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies.  Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle.  How beautiful you are and how pleasing, O love, with your delights.  Your stature is like that of a palm and your breasts like the clusters of the fruit.  I said I will climb the palm tree, I will take hold of its fruit.  May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples."  That is just as inspired as John 3:16 – the God who inspired the scripture inspired that – that's from Song of Solomon, chapter 7.                         You know, throughout the book, the Shulamite woman is responding to Solomon.  She is affirming him for who he is.  Listen to her words back to him.  "My lover is radiant and ruddy, outstanding among 10,000.  His head is purest gold, his hair is wavy and black as a raven.  His eyes are like doves beside the water's streams, washed in milk, mounded like jewels.  His cheeks are like beds of spice yielding perfume.  His lips are like lilies dripping with myrrh.  His hands are rods of gold set with crystallite, his body is like polished ivory decorated with sapphires.  His legs are pillars of marble set on bases of pure gold.  His appearance is like Lebanon – choice as the cedars.  This is my lover, this is my friend.  O daughters of Jerusalem, eat your heart out." Bob:                That's a loose translation there at the end. Dennis:          That last part was a loose translation, but I sense our listeners needed to laugh.  We may have some people turning around and going home on their way to work this morning.                         You know, the point is, God's not blushing.  He's not ashamed.  He made us different, but he made us to affirm one another in our differentness and, again, let us celebrate the way God has designed us sexually.                         Let me just make some applications for a woman who has been listening.  First of all, if she finds it difficult to accept herself, and she feels insecure about how God has made her sexually, she may find it very difficult to affirm her husband, and so that particular wife may need to spend some time in prayer, may need to get some counsel, find a wise counselor of the same sex who can advise her and help her work through some things.  Barbara and I have talked earlier in this series about those women who have been abused – read Dan Allender's book.  Talk about the real issues of female sexuality and accept who God has made you to be.                         Secondly, I think a wife needs to move out and take some risks.  Find a beginning step, however small that may be, to bless and affirm your husband in this sexual area of marriage love and, thirdly, for those who find that too risky, and you're just not ready to take any risks at this point, I would begin where the Shulamite woman was.  She verbally affirmed Solomon.  Perhaps write your own praise of your husband in a letter, perhaps state it verbally in a poem – find a way to affirm him and how God made him as a man.                         One last point – men are lonely today, and there's a reason for that.  Most men, throughout the history of their lives have not been able to sustain close relationships with another human being, and it's no wonder they are insecure as they begin to love their wives and, you know, that's why a woman who accepts her husband where he is and can encourage him when he does it right and just affirm him as a man for his efforts at loving you, because every man, I believe, is in the process of learning from God how to love and how to give his life for his wife. Bob:                Well, let me wish our listeners a Happy Valentine's Day.  Hopefully, the series that we've been doing here will help make this Valentine's Day a more romantic one for couples, and join us tomorrow as we conclude the series with members of our FamilyLife team talking about how they have been ministered to romantically by their mates.  I hope you can join us for that.                         Our engineer is Mark Whitlock.  Our host is Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "My Funny Valentine")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com      

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 7 of 8 Guest:                          Dennis Rainey                                From the Series:        A Man's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today with our host, Dennis Rainey.  Today we're talking about romance, and I believe the band is ready. (Music:  "It Had To Be You")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the broadcast today as we continue looking at romance and today looking at how a man views that subject. Dennis:          And because of how he spells it, don't you think we ought to talk to the parents of some younger listeners who eavesdrop into FamilyLife Today occasionally, Bob? Bob:                Yeah, it would probably be a good idea for some of our younger listeners not to listen in on the broadcast today, because the nature of some of this material will be sensitive, and that's because husbands have kind of a one-track mind when it comes to romance. Dennis:          Yeah, we've been talking about how women view romance relationally, and we've hopefully done a good job on previous days of really equipping the men to know how to meet the relational needs of their wives so that their wives can have romance spelled on their hearts by men who really understand their language of love.                         But as we move to men, men spell romance differently.  They spell it s-e-x, and a lot of Christian marriages really suffer because they drift, and they become bored, and I think one of the best illustrations of how a man feels was written in Dr. Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life," and it was from a man who really shared how he felt.  He writes, "My wife and I need help.  I feel that all of our troubles stem from one cause – my wife does not want to have intercourse with me, and I cannot accept this.  The situation has existed all of our 18 years of marriage.  We currently have relations about once a month.  This occurs normally after many days of my frustrating attempts to have her respond.  Then it is not a love affair, but a surrender or duty attitude on her part.  I love my wife.  She's an outstanding wife, mother, and friend, except that she does not physically love me.  I'm afraid to face up to the fact that maybe my wife just doesn't love me and can't respond to me.  I have asked myself many times, 'What are you still married for?'  I have no answer.  I do not know what to do."                         That man is feeling rejection at the core of his manhood.  Now, on behalf of that wife, there may be causes for her that are inhibiting her own sex drive toward her husband that she needs to deal with.  But for that man, can you sense the rejection that he's feeling?  He's questioning the whole act of marriage, and that really points out the importance of this subject.  Romance is not an option for Christian marriage.  Romance ought to be a part of every Christian marriage.  Now, that doesn't mean there's not going to be times in a marriage relationship when you go through a valley or a drought, and there simply isn't a lot of time or a lot of feelings left over to experience romance, but I'm going to tell you something – that ought not to be the steady diet of a marriage relationship.  I believe God intended us to experience romantic love all of our married days. Bob:                Well, 1 Corinthians 7 speaks directly to that issue, doesn't it? Dennis:          Yeah, verse 2 says, "But because of immoralities, let each man have his own wife and let each woman have her own husband." Bob:                Now, what does that mean, "because of immoralities?" Dennis:          Well, I think Paul recognized the temptation that is in the marketplace, and realizing how, especially, men are wired, as well as women, by the way – they can be tempted even through relationships toward sexual immorality.  Paul was a realist.  He said because of the evil that lurks in the marketplace, you need to make your marriage bed a priority.                           Then there is a fascinating verse – in verse 5 it says, "Stop depriving one another."  That's a command – don't deprive one another sexual relations except by agreement.  Paul was realizing the need for us, as couples, to make our marriage bed a priority and specifically on this broadcast today I want to speak honestly and straightforwardly to the wives about helping them understand their husband's sex drive and his need for romantic love that only you, as his wife, can communicate. Bob:                I should interrupt you here just for a minute and let our listeners know, if they're tuning in for the first day, we've been talking about the subject of romance for several days.  We've talked about the foxes that interrupt romance in the marriage relationship.  You've talked to men about how they can be lovers of their wives and really treat them with dignity and respect and cherish them and romance them.  And then you spent a full day talking with men about what you're going to talk with their wives about on today's broadcast, and I think it's important for our listeners to realize that some of the hard things that you're going to say on today's broadcast fit into that context. Dennis:          Yeah, and I'm going to start right out with a hard thing to hear, and so, wives, please, I wish I could go back and give you the context of previous broadcasts, but I'm just talkin' to you straight, because I think today we really need to give you the benefit of hearing from a man how it really is.  And the first thing I want to say is you, as a wife, need to assume responsibility for your husband's sexual needs.                           You know, it was interesting, Bob, as I did a lot of hours of research and thinking and reading in preparation for this series, I reflected back that there are a number of books, there are a number of counselors that are telling the men how to romance their wives, and, really, there's a drought of writing about this subject of male sexuality helping women, helping wives, understand their responsibility to meet this area of physical need in their husbands lives.  And the interesting thing is, as I began to read, I began to feel like, more and more, the weight of romance fell squarely, nearly 100 percent, on the man's shoulders.  Now, do I think he primarily is responsible for this?  Yes.  But does that primary responsibility of the man absolve the woman of all responsibility?  Huh-huh.  I believe she has responsibility as well.                         Over in 1 Corinthians, chapter 7, verse 32 through 34, the command there is for husbands to please their wives and for wives to please their husbands, and if it was just the man's responsibility to please his wife, then the command of 1 Corinthians, chapter 7, would have stopped before verse 34 where it addresses the wife. Bob:                Okay, well, if the man is still to take primary responsibility over a couple's romantic relationship, then in what sense does a woman have a responsibility to be romantically involved with her husband?  What's her role in all of this? Dennis:          Well, I think she needs to be a part of creatively praying and thinking and actively pursuing her husband on his agenda, and we've stated that repeatedly over this series.  His agenda, for most men, is spelled s-e-x.  It's on the physical side of the love relationship.  Now, that doesn't mean she has to be preoccupied with sex all day long.  That's not going to be a part of her wiring and who she is.  It just means that she must make her husband a priority in this area of their marriage relationship.                           And let me just say to the ladies at this point – I don't want you to think, as we continue to move through these points, because over the next couple of days, these are going to get a little grittier and a little, perhaps, tougher to hear from a woman's perspective, but what I'm going to promise you is this will not be a superficial approach to a subject that, from a Christian perspective, I believe firmly must be dealt with from a biblical standpoint.                           The second point I want to make to ladies is that most men – now listen carefully – most men don't understand their own sex drive, and what is compelling them to pursue their wives physically.  Now, did you hear that?  Most men don't understand themselves sexually.  So you're wondering – how am I going to be able to understand him when he doesn't understand himself?                         You know, it's really interesting, as you listen to men talk, there are all kinds of sexual innuendoes in their jokes – and I'm not saying, by the way, that they're appropriate – but there's all kinds of statements made that just hint that they are horribly insecure about this subject.  And what a man needs is he needs the commitment, the strong commitment, the resilient love of a woman who says, "Sweetheart, I am yours, and I am proud to be yours.  You know what?  You can be real, and you can be frail, and you can be weak, and I will still respect you, and I will still love you."  But the problem is, is most men have a difficult time really hearing that message, because of the threat of this area of their own manhood. Bob:                All right, well, let me get this real practical, if I can.  Let's say it's 9:30 tonight, the kids are in bed – Dennis:          – that's ideal, that's not just practical – Bob:                – husband and wife have, oh, a few minutes together on the sofa before they go to bed, and a wife thinks to herself, "Now that thing Dennis was talkin' about on the radio, about how can a wife help her husband understand his own sexual desires" – what does she cuddle up next to him and say that will help initiate a conversation around that subject? Dennis:          Okay, first of all, the couch is a great spot to have this discussion.  Maybe even the dinner table or a walk.  Of course, if it's dark outside – of course, that may even be a better idea for men, because of the threat.  But I would suggest getting a book that Barbara and I wrote called, "The Questions Book."  Now this is a book that has 31 questions that I'll bet you've never asked your spouse, and one of the questions I think would really be appropriate here.  It's a question that will unlock, I think, what is really behind what communicates romance to your husband.  The question is this – what are the three most romantic times that we have shared together as a couple and why?                         Then what I would encourage you to do, as a wife, is just listen carefully to what he says and why he says that was romantic to him.  Listen to the messages that are behind the statements and listen to what really affirms him in the sexual dimension of your relationship, and if he doesn't mention sex in the first romantic adventure that you have, then that's okay.  There may be some things that communicate romance and love to him that are quite apart from a sex act, but I've got to believe that one of those three are going to include something that involved a romantic evening that was enchanting around the subject of sex.  And then I would begin to ask him – why that was affirming?  Why did that feel affirming?  And if conversation goes on, and he feels comfortable, I would talk about his fears.  What are your fears around the sex act?  Around how you feel about yourself as a man?  Talk about his doubts – does he have any?  Because most men do have doubts about their ability to perform and really be a great lover of their wives. Bob:                As a wife begins to attempt to open her husband up on this subject, she may meet with resistance either at the very start or anytime she begins to probe more deeply.  What should she do when she meets with that resistance? Dennis:          Well, that's the real world.  There are some men who, at that point, they're not going to want to talk, and I wouldn't press it at that point.  But what you can become sensitive to, as a woman, are those opportunities where perhaps he will be willing to talk and where you can better understand him and where you can begin to probe him with questions when he is willing to open up.                         I would also encourage couples around this subject to go to a FamilyLife Marriage Conference because sometimes it takes a whole weekend of a man getting away from his work, from household duties, and experiencing some romance with his wife at a quality hotel to really begin to unthaw the emotions. Bob:                And on Saturday afternoon, as they work through a project, that subject will come up, won't it? Dennis:          That's exactly right.  And at that point, the commitment in the relationship, I think, has been heightened, and the freedom that a man feels at that point in the FamilyLife Marriage Conference is a time when I think he may begin to open up. Bob:                Well, you've talked already on the broadcast today about how a woman needs to assume some responsibility in this area, and how most men just don't get it, even about their own sexuality.  What else? Dennis:          Well, I think a woman needs to understand that a man needs to be needed by his wife sexually.  If you want to see your husband literally go through the ceiling with excitement, express tonight that you need him sexually.  You can do that verbally, or you can do that by being friendly to him tonight – how else shall I say it?  Genesis 2:18 says, and this is God speaking, "It is not good for the man to be alone."  God points out that man needed a counterpart.                         I'll never forget a young seminary wife – I was speaking on the West Coast at a major evangelical seminary – and I was talking to the women at a wives' class about how they could communicate love to their husbands, and this young seminarian wife came up after I'd finished speaking, and she said, "Dennis," and she started giggling, she said, "We were driving home the other night from youth group, my husband is a youth pastor, and in the quiet of the car, we were just driving along there in the dark, and I turned to him, and I said, 'Sweetheart, what would really encourage you to be a man of God?'"  And she said, "Dennis, there was a moment of silence, and he said, 'Well, if I came home from seminary in the afternoon and found you at home with no clothes on welcoming me home.""  And she kinda giggled, and she said, "Do you think he really meant it?"  And I said, "I don't know.  Maybe you ought to try it."                         Now, isn't it interesting that here's a guy who is immersing himself in the study of the scriptures.  His wife asked him what can encourage you to become a man of God?  You'd think he would want maybe a theological set of books about the Bible, maybe some time with a great man of God.  Hm-mm.  He wants a time with his wife alone to just be affirmed sexually.  Now, that's a message that I think we need to be shouting from the mountaintops today. Bob:                You know, some wives would say, "I feel like I'm doing this for my husband, but at the same time that I'm trying to affirm him, I'm feeling unaffirmed.  I'm feeling used." Dennis:          Charlie Shedd in his book, "Letters to Karen," made a powerful statement – and this is a book from a father to his daughter about marriage, love, and about life.  He writes, "Be sexually aggressive some of the time.  Your husband longs to believe that he's wonderful enough for you to yearn for his sexual companionship.  It matters everything to a man if he has a home where he knows he has great value.  Your husband can stand much more of the rough-and-tumble of a cutthroat world if you have convinced him that his home is an emotional center where he is vitally important."  And did you hear what he was saying to do that?  A part of that is being creative and initiating sexually toward your husband. Bob:                I don't even know if you can do this.  Do you have any other ideas? Dennis:          I'm not going to go further as to how a woman can do that, graphically talking about that, but I do think what she needs to do is communicate her need of her husband – do that verbally.  Let him know that you are his lover.  Write him a note, maybe a surprise – let him know that he has occupied your thoughts today sexually.  That's good.  God would not be ashamed.  He would not be up in heaven right now hiding his face, blushing, that I'm saying this over Christian radio.  Our God made the whole sexual dimension of marriage, and He's for it.                         I think what we want to communicate here is that a woman who wants to please her husband can learn how to do that in a way that communicates love to him and, most likely, those gifts of pleasing your husband will involve sacrifice.  That's what makes them so valuable. Bob:                You know, Dennis, tomorrow is Valentine's Day, and I can imagine there are some wives who are listening to the broadcast who think, "I have tried to do what you've talked about today.  I have tried to affirm and esteem my husband and build him up, and yet when we are together romantically, when we're together sexually, I feel very unaffirmed.  I feel used," and she wonders, "Do I keep going?  Do I stay with it?" Dennis:          Boy, that's a tough one, because there are men that, for whatever reason, are unresponsive, and I would say if you're in a marriage like that, you need to seek out a friend of the same sex who can pray for you, who can encourage you, and you need to be vitally involved in your local church, growing spiritually. Bob:                And maybe the broadcasts that we did earlier, where we talked to husbands about how they can romance their wives – maybe that tape would be helpful for a husband. Dennis:          Yeah, and perhaps an invitation to your husband to write a letter explaining his lack of response.  Sometimes men can be threatened by verbally communicating, because they're so tangled in their own emotions, they can get free to share it.  And perhaps the open invitation to a man to write down his thoughts to his wife, just perhaps there's a man who is listening, or a wife who can use that to help her husband begin to really open up his heart and become vulnerable. Bob:                Are you going to talk more to wives on tomorrow's broadcast? Dennis:          We've got a long list here. Bob:                All right.  I hope our listeners can join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock.  Dennis Rainey is our host.  I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "It Had To Be You")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 6 of 8 Guest:                             Dennis Rainey From the Series:          A Man's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­ (Music:  "As Time Goes By") Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Stay with us as we talk about how men view romance today on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "As Time Goes By")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the broadcast today, as we continue to talk about romance on the program today, and today we're going to talk to wives, right, Dennis? Dennis:          And I've got what one man wants me to do on this broadcast.  He wrote me, "Help my wife understand how I think as a man." Bob:                And you're going to do that in one broadcast?   Dennis:          Well, maybe two, but we're goin' for it.  You know, we're talking about how you can build romance into your marriage here in anticipation of Valentine's Day, and there are undoubtedly a number of marriages who are listening into this broadcasts right now, who are much like the sailors of old, who used to be afraid of an area of the ocean called "The Doldrums." Bob:                The Doldrums? Dennis:          The Doldrums – they were near the Equator.  It's an actual spot, and it was a place where there was no current, there were no winds, and so a sailor could happen into this area and, literally, their boat could be stalled out in the middle of the ocean for days, even weeks, because there would be no wind to pull them out of The Doldrums, and I think that's what happens in a lot of marriages.  And, you know, that's really why we're doing this series.  We want to help marriages not just merely experience romance, because He wants us to have marriages that are alive, that are thriving, that are contagious – Christian marriages – so that we can tell the world about why our marriage is exciting – and that's Jesus Christ.  And I think Jesus Christ wants us to have a romantic relationship.  He doesn't want us to have our marriage be adrift in The Doldrums. Bob:                We've talked over the last couple of days about how a man can romance his wife.  It's a different process for a woman to romance her husband? Dennis:          It sure is.  A woman looks at romance, and she spells romance "relationship."  A man evidently doesn't need that many letters to spell romance, because he spells it very simply – s-e-x, sex.  And what we did was, we surveyed over 800 people at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences, and it was really quite interesting to see what communicated romance to the men and what communicated romance to the women, and a lot of women are very good students of their husbands, and they are becoming very astute at learning how to communicate romantically in the love language of their husbands so that they have that romance as part of their relationship. Bob:                You know, I've got to believe there are some wives who, right off the bat, though, almost resent you saying that.  They almost resent you saying that romance and sex are synonymous for a husband because maybe it puts pressure on them, or maybe they just don't want that to be all there is to romance with their husbands. Dennis:          Well, there are a lot of women who have an aversion to that, because they are so relationally bent, but whether you resent it or your embrace it, I think you need to listen carefully what we're about to talk about, because it is of vital importance to any marriage that wants to be all that God intended.                           I ran across this little piece by Dr. Joyce Brothers, and Barbara and I included it in our book, "Building Your Mate's Self Esteem," and Dr. Brothers really points out that boredom in the bedroom can really be the demise of a marriage relationship.  She writes, "Sexual boredom is a major element in the 20-year fractures in marriage.  Too many women" – now listen to this carefully – "too many women accept their husband's decreasing interest in sex without stopping to think what might be causing it."                         I think what we've got to do over the next couple of days is talk straight to women about this subject of sex with their husbands, because it's my personal belief that there are a lot of men who are very, very frustrated with what is taking place in the Christian bedrooms of America – notice I said the "Christian bedrooms."  I'm talkin' about the marriages that are attempting to love each other with the sacrificial love that Christ spoke of in Ephesians, chapter 5.  There are women who are committed to their husbands but somehow, in the Christian community, I don't sense the sparkle and the sizzle that ought to be a part of Christian marriage.  And for that reason, I'm going to risk it.  I really want to talk honestly and straight about the sexual needs of men today.                         Now, as I do that, I really feel like, at this point, I need a little bit of a disclaimer here, because there is no doubt about it that men are selfish, and there are a lot of women who are listening to our broadcast who are married to men who really ought to be lined up on the 30-yard line in the Rose Bowl and kicked through the goalpost, because they are self-absorbed, they treat their wives like they're an object and, personally, I'd like to work 'em over, because they are either quoting verses, they're goin' to church and, in the meantime, they really do not give women the dignity that they ought to have.  We talked on the previous broadcast about how men need to romance their wives, and so I want the women listeners to know that I've been careful to talk about how women need to be treated by their husbands first.  But men are selfish.                         A second disclaimer I want to say is that a lot of men have damaged women emotionally.  I mean, they've neglected them, they've not made them a part of their lives, they have become apathetic.  There is no excuse for a man treating a woman with anything other than the love which Christ commands us to treat our wives.                           And the third disclaimer I've got to say about men is some men have really not assumed responsibility in just the most fundamental sense of their families – to lead it spiritually, to pray, to take their wife's hand and show tenderness, and I want you to know that as we move off in this area of understanding men, that I'm a real-world person here; I know a little bit about what's going on in marriages across the country.  But there's a side of men today that I think is being bashed, that is being neglected by some Christian wives, and I think somebody's got to stand up and say, "Could I take a few moments and just talk with you straight about how a man really thinks and really feels?" Bob:                As you describe the selfishness of men or their failure to be involved, I know you know, because we get letters from listeners.  For a woman to give herself physically, sexually, to a man who is not connected with her emotionally, or who is disengaged from the relationship otherwise – it feels demeaning.  She feels like a prostitute. Dennis:          You know, my heart goes out to those women in those situations, because that's not right, and that's not what Christian marriage was meant to be, and, you know, the Bible states it clearly that we're not going to receive all the rewards that are really due to us on this side of eternity, and all I could say at that point is I pray that you might get a chance for you and your husband to experience a FamilyLife Marriage Conference, where he could hear from some men who are real men, who would really challenge him to be a spiritual leader, to be a godly leader of his family and challenge him out of his spiritual apathy, perhaps out of his spiritual deadness.  He may not even be a Christian.  He may be going to church, but he may have never had a life-changing experience with the Savior.                         And we see that occurring over and over again in our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences, where men come to the conference and at the conference they really become husbands. Bob:                In the meantime, though, Dennis, are you saying that these wives need to be romantically involved, sexually involved, with their husbands, even in the midst of some of the selfishness and the spiritual apathy that you've described? Dennis:          Certainly in a situation that is damaging, I would not encourage a woman to continue to submit herself where a husband is damaging her physically, emotionally – but she needs protection in those situations, and that's why we have legal authorities.  Romans, chapter 13 talks about how God has put authority to protect us in the law of the land.  That's why the local church is there to come alongside you and coach you in those situations.                         But to the rest – and, Bob, this is the larger group that I want to speak to right now – to the rest of the Christian women who are listening in today – I want to ask you, have you somehow become self-seeking in your own rights, even in a self-righteous sense?  Do you feel justified in not responding to your husband and not paying attention to him in a vital area of your marriage relationship?                         Now, those are hard words to hear from a man, and I almost feel like apologizing on this broadcast for being a man.  That's how strong, Bob, I feel like the current is in this culture of what the women's movement has done.  It has not made it something to be proud of to be a man.  But you know what?  The feelings that I have as a man and other men that have shared with me in counseling and interaction with them at FamilyLife conferences over the past 18 years, I'm tellin' ya, what I'm about to share is real, and there aren't just a few men who feel this, there are a lot of men who feel this.                         I wonder today, in the Christian community, why has there been such an increase in women who have seemed to resist their husband's sexual advances?  Why does there seem to be such a pushback of a woman – a Christian woman – who doesn't want to do everything she can to please her husband?  Now, I'm not talkin' about doin' weird stuff and feeling used by him, but I'm just talking about going to school on your husband and being the maximum lover that God, the Creator of the universe, the Creator of the sex act, would want you to be in that marriage relationship.                         And I look back, and I look beyond the activity or the lack of activity in that situation, and I've got to ask a fundamental question – is it selfishness?  Is it deceit?  Has the enemy tricked us?  And I think he has.  I honestly believe that in the Christian community today we're afraid to approach this subject in an honest, forthright manner and have a heart-to-heart discussion.  In the meantime, what we're doing is, I think we're blaming a lot of men for where they have failed, and they have failed, I have failed in properly loving my wife. But what man is there that can stand up and say that he has done it right?  Because if you're waiting for your husband to do it perfectly, before you respond or before you begin to please him, then, my friend, you're holding your husband under a performance basis.  You've got a gun to his head, and I'm going to tell you what that's going to do to him – that's going to make him mad.  And that's why I think we have some men today who are swapping out their wife of 15 to 20 years for a woman who appears to be responsive, because men want to be affirmed in who they are as a man. Bob:                Now, you're not saying that a man is justified in doing that. Dennis:          Oh, absolutely not.  That's adultery.  It's emotional adultery beforehand, and that's wrong, and it's physical adultery if they consummate that relationship outside of marriage.  That man would be absolutely blatantly and flagrantly in disobedience to the law of God, and I'm not justifying that activity, but I'm telling you, a man in that circumstance, who is not married to a woman who is a magnet at home, who draws him back to that home, I'm tellin' ya, that man is susceptible.  He is more open to temptation and evil than the man who is loved at home by a wife who is a real student.                         Let me just say this at this point – there are some women listening who have done this and you know what?  You don't need to get uptight that you're not doing enough.  If you have really met your husband at his point of need, then you know what?  You need to celebrate that.  And you husbands who are listening who have a wife like that, go home and put your arm around her and say, "Thank God for this woman who meets my every need.  You are a great woman, you're blessed of God.  Thank you for being a great lover with me as your husband."                         But I think in the Christian community, I think there are some men, and not just a few men, who are angry right now, and they've been wounded by their wife's lack of interest, her neglect, her apathy towards the act of intercourse and wanting to meet her husband's sexual needs. Bob:                I was with a group of couples recently.  We were talking frankly about how men and women are different and how men view sex, and as we talked about it, I had a woman look at me, and she said, "You know what?  Men are just weird.  If they're thinkin' about it that much, if it's that much on their mind, they're just weird.  I don't understand that at all." Dennis:          Well, and we've already talked about this on the previous broadcasts – God made us different. Bob:                Right. Dennis:          Now, why'd he do that?  Is He cruel?  I know one woman who said in a counseling situation, she said, "I just don't know why God didn't make me more like a man."  And, you know, that's not the solution here.  Your husband doesn't want you to be like a man.  Now, you may say, "Huh-uh, huh-uh, I know different than that."  No, he doesn't want you to be like him, he just wants you to be the receiver of his love in a way that communicates affection and warmth to him, and you need to do that within the full-blown perspective of being a woman, being feminine – not becoming masculine, but being the affirming arms of love of God for your husband. Bob:                You know, even in those differences, though, and as we talk about the sexual relationship in marriage, men are thinking about sex, but this isn't just about sex, is it? Dennis:          No, it has to do with who he is as a man.  A woman is commanded to respect her husband.  Ephesians 5:33 says, "Let the wife see to it that she respects her husband."  I really like, Bob, the way the Amplified Bible reads in this verse  -- "And let the wife see to it that she respects and reverences her husband; that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates and esteems him, and that she defers to him, praises him, loves and admires him exceedingly." Bob:                I know some men who are going to go buy the Amplified version and take it home and just read it for that. Dennis:          You know, the best illustration I've ever seen from this came from a woman who was married, I believe, almost 40 years.  She works here at FamilyLife, and her name is Pat Orten [sp], and I'll never forget this.  I was walking out of the office one day – and Pat is a grandma and a great lady.  Her husband died a number of years ago.  And I asked her, I said, "Pat, as an older woman who has mentored some younger women, what do you think is one of the most important things you could share with a young wife as she starts out her marriage?"  And Pat got a sly grin on her face, and she looked back at me, and she said, "Dennis, I would tell women if they want to be treated like a queen, then they need to crown him king."  And she said, "I always sought to crown my husband king about halfway between his car and the front door when he arrived home," and she had a twinkle in her eye like no grandma I've ever seen when she said that.                         And, you know, Bob, I listened to her, and I said, "That's it.  That's what God wants.  He wants a mature love that has a sparkle to it."  Not a love that becomes mature and has cobwebs all over it.  You know, that's rusty and decayed.  No, it's a love that's excited, and it's a love that is preferring another person, and a part of that preferring moves, I believe, into the bedroom, especially for men today. Bob:                That's what I was going to ask you – respecting is one thing, but what does that have to do with sex? Dennis:          The Proverbs says a wise woman builds up her house.  The foolish woman is the one who destroys it and tears it down.  It's a wise woman, I think, who wants to understand her husband's sex drive.  It's a woman who says, "I want to know my husband, and I want to know his fears, his anxieties.  I want to know what's really behind this thing called man," because I think today a lot of men don't even understand that as well. Bob:                You're saying that there's more being communicated during the sex act than just the pleasure that's associated with it? Dennis:          Well, we're going to have to talk more about this tomorrow, but I'm saying that, for a man, the sex act represents risk, and for the woman who understands how vulnerable, how risky, how he can feel rejected at this point, it is that woman who becomes the very wise and astute wife, because she realizes that her responsiveness, her love for him, her respecting him at that point – she is esteeming and respecting that man as God's creation, and she's not rejecting what God said was very good. Bob:                You know, you've spent a lot of time on the broadcast today, Dennis, talking about sexual intimacy in marriage and how important that is for a husband, but the bigger objective here is not just to improve a couple's sex life, is it? Dennis:          No, it really isn't, and I just want you women to know what we're going to do is really help you romance your spouse, because that is a bedrock issue in marital love.  No, it's not the whole issue, it is merely a part, but I'm going to tell you something, when we ignore this part that God created, we're making a tactical error that is going to cost our marriage dearly. Bob:                Well, I hope you can join us Monday as we continue to look at this important subject for every marriage relationship.                         Our engineer is Mark Whitlock.  Dennis Rainey is our host, and I'm Bob Lepine, and we'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "As Time Goes By")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   ______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com      

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 5 of 8 Guest:                        Dennis Rainey From the Series:     A Man's View of Romance ________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­(Music:  "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?") Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and if you've ever scratched your head and asked yourself the same question Henry Higgins asked himself, then stay with us for today's edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like a Man?")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, and let me see if I can do a recap, Dennis, for our listeners here as we begin the broadcast.  Last week you talked with us about why romance is so important for a marriage relationship. Dennis:          Right. Bob:                You talked about the "romance robbers" that every relationship experiences.  Barbara joined us, and we spent three days talking to men about how wives view this issue of romance, and we just had a couple of days with the guy you describe as the "Michael Jordan of romance," who talked with us about some creative things that his group – that he calls the "Men of the Titanic" have done to communicate romance to their wives, and before we talk to wives about how their husbands view romance, you want to spend one more session talking to the men, right? Dennis:          Right.  You know, I think a lot of Christians are afraid to discuss the obvious.  There is a great struggle that is taking place in the Christian bedrooms of our nation, and if that struggle is going to be diminished, and Christian marriages are to emerge, then that means we've got to get honest and look at this biblically, we've got to look at it and speak out it forthrightly and, in the best way we know how to talk about it, be able to speak honestly first of all to men about what they're feeling when it comes to sexuality. Bob:                Now, is it okay for the wives to listen in as we talk to their husbands? Dennis:          I think, for today's broadcast, you ladies can just eavesdrop as I just have a heart-to-heart talk with the men, because I think a lot of us, as men, are really confused, and this first point I want to make with the husbands is you need to reserve romance and your sexuality for your wife only.  What I mean by that is God has blessed you and given you great sexual energy.  That ought to move you to serve her, to love her, to sacrificially give to her without resentment.                         Now, those last two words are very important – "without resentment" – because I think God gives us, as men, this urge to initiate toward our wives for a reason, because our wives are different.  They have relational needs, and what we do with our own sex drive, as we look at our wife's needs, can either move us to using our wives as an object or we, as men, can realize that we need to get on our wife's wavelength and how she views romance; that is, her need for relational love, and that means spending time with her, taking walks, some of the things we've talked about earlier in this series. Bob:                Are you saying here that if a man is failing in these areas, if he's not communicating love to his wife on her terms, then he really needs to make that a priority before he has any expectations from his own wife? Dennis:          I'm saying when Paul commanded husbands to love their wives, He commanded them to nourish and cherish their wives.  The picture is of bathing them in nutrition for their soul.  What is that for a woman?  It's a relationship.  It's sharing your life, as a man, with your wife, and if you don't do that, most likely your wife is going to feel like a sex object, and I think one of the best questions a man could ask his wife at this point, to see how he's doing, is say, "Sweetheart, when I make love to you, do you feel loved?" I'm convinced there are a lot of wives who would say, "No.  I may feel pleasure, I may feel sexual release, but somehow, sweetheart, you're not communicating real love to me, because you haven't met those relational needs." And it's not what the man is doing or not doing in the midst of the actual act of intercourse.  It's what he hasn't done to prepare that relationship with his wife and enable her to feast on having fun, on being nourished and cherished by someone who tenderly cares for his wife.   Now, this next thing I need to talk to men about at this point – this gets kind of tough to speak to men, but I've gotta do it – men sometimes have a higher felt need for sex than their wives, and I've got a couple of questions for you men who continually find yourself in overdrive in this area.   The first question is – are you feeding your sexual appetite throughout the day?  Your fantasies, what you look at, what you watch, what you allow your mind to feast on – are you feeding that regularly throughout the day in an unbridled fashion?  It is a wise man who, first of all, looks to himself in saying, "Am I really setting up our marriage to win here or am I somehow, because of what I'm allowing myself to think about all day, am I being selfish in arriving at the marriage bed almost setting my wife up to fail because I have so feasted in my mind on my sexual creativity?" Bob:                There needs to be some self control and discipline that a man exercises over his own thought life? Dennis:          Discipline is a part of the Christian life, and I think for a lot of men this goes down hard, because what we would like to say is we would like to have complete freedom to think about what we would like to think about and arrive home all sexually energized and charged up, but the problem is – what's our wife been thinking about all day?  She's had kids draped all over her legs and arms, tuggin' on her skirt, and here's the man arriving home.  He's had all these thoughts, and his wife is nowhere in the ballpark, let alone ready to go to bed with him.                         A third thing I'd like to encourage the men to do, and this is going to sound the riskiest of all, but it's absolutely important that you share your feelings about your own sexuality.  This is what women really don't understand about men, because men aren't in touch with what they're feeling about their own sexuality.  And a part of this, Bob, I believe, is a man must express to his wife the importance of his wife's response at the point where he initiates intercourse with his wife. Bob:                But you're saying before he does that, he needs to understand that importance himself? Dennis:          That's right.  First of all, he's got to understand what it is he's feeling, and then begin to put it in words with his wife, and this is the interesting thing – most men have never talked about this with anyone in their lifetimes.  It's interesting, America is a culture that is saturated with sex, and yet men, I believe, are more insecure, they've got more confusion, more anxieties, more temptations – I think they've got unreal expectations about themselves, about their spouse, and what may be the best vehicle for the man to discuss this is to simply write out a letter to his wife about how he feels about his own sexuality.  Include in there any anxiety you may feel, certain feelings you may have about your own performance, how you feel at the point when you are initiating, and then include a paragraph about how you feel when your wife says no.  Because I think sometimes the way men express their feelings is with anger.  They've been hurt, they've been disappointed, and what comes out is anger.  They kick wastecans.  I know one man who kicked a hole in his garage door.  That's a long way from the bedroom, so you've got to wonder how he got down there to do that, but the guy was ticked off.                         The time to communicate this is never in your bedroom.  It should always be in the midst and the context of a relationship – on a walk – it's not at 11:00 at night when you're both exhausted.  It's in a prime time of the day when you can talk about this and connect with your spouse.  I think there are a lot of women who really do want to understand their husbands, and what I would say to the women at this point – be patient with your man, because he, most likely, has never, ever talked with another man about this, let alone a woman.  And now you're his wife, and now you share this bed together, and you can't help but maybe feel it personally as well, as a woman, feeling like he's rejecting you. Bob:                One of the things that makes those discussions difficult for couples is what happens after that?  The next time you come together, there are all kinds of thoughts running through both of your heads, and it makes it awkward. Dennis:          Yes, and that's a part of a growing marriage relationship that I think young couples just need to relax and grow through – or a couple who has been married for 15 to 20 years, who may go through some discussions that they've never shared in the past.                           Yes, you may feel self-conscious, but do you know what I'd do at that point?  Learn to laugh and not be so serious about this thing called sex.  We're certainly devoting a lot of days to it here on the broadcast, and that's because it is a very serious subject, but one of the things Barbara and I have attempted to do is, we have attempted to keep laughter as a part of our marriage bed.  It takes some of the pressure off, it allows us the freedom to share some humor in the midst of what can be far too serious of a subject. Bob:                Mm-hm. Dennis:          Okay, men, this next point may not even sound like it relates to sexual intimacy, but it does, and that is you need to pray with your wife about this area of your relationship – pray for yourself that you'll be selfless, that you'll be a man who knows how to deny himself for your wife, and in many cases there can be no greater act of love on your wife's behalf than you denying your own desires for your wife.  Ask God to give you the strength to be able to do that.  Ask God to give you an understanding of how to love her and how to meet her needs.                         I want to tell you something – the Holy Spirit of God, if you're a believer in Jesus Christ – indwells you.  He can guide you and lead you into becoming a better lover.  Now, you may say, "The Holy Spirit wants to help me be a better lover?"  Absolutely.  You can't tell me the God of the Universe that created sexual love is not interested in helping us when we don't know how we need help, and I've found God has given me ways of loving Barbara at times when, truthfully, I was at a dead end.  I didn't know how to meet her needs.                         Pray for your wife.  Pray that she'll feel loved when you initiate sexual love with her.  That's an important part.  You know what?  I'd even pray with her before the act of intercourse that God might enable you to communicate love to her. Bob:                Now, you've got to know, Dennis, there are some folks who hear you say that and think, "That just feels strange – to pray together and then go to bed together." Dennis:          Well, if that sounds strange, then the next point I've got is going to sound stranger – and that would be to pray during the act of making love with one another.  Now, how strange does that sound? Bob:                Well, there are some folks who are probably thinking that sounds pretty strange, too. Dennis:          Well, let me ask you something – is God there in your bedroom in the midst of this? Bob:                Yeah, I guess He is. Dennis:          I think He is, and I believe sexual love is an act of worship.  I think it is the deepest form of emotion and feeling two people share together.  Who made that?  It wasn't man.  God made it.  Why not share in prayer together in the middle of marital love? Bob:                You know, I was talking about this with a Sunday School class one time, and I said that the sex act is an act of worship, and a guy came up to me the next week, and he said, "We went home and had a revival at our house after Sunday School last week."                         You know, I think there is a false sense of separation that most Christians feel between the spiritual side of life and the sexual side of life. Dennis:          Well, you know, there's one last point of prayer and, again, I'm just being realistic – after you've shared in love together – what finer moment than to say, "Lord Jesus, thank you for this woman You've given me."  And I've prayed that many times with Barbara – "Thank You for what we have just enjoyed together.  Thank You for her, thank You for her love, thank You for her trust of me as a man."    __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 4 of 8 Guest:                         Barbara Rainey From the Series:         A Woman's View of Romance_____________________________________________________________ Bob:                Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Today we're speaking frankly about how a woman views romance. (Music:  "Love and Marriage")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast.  We are beginning Week Number 2 of our look at Creating a More Romantic Marriage, and I just want to encourage folks, if you missed any of last week's programs, or if you're going to miss any of this week's programs, this is a series that husbands and wives ought to get and listen to together, and then they can talk, they can interact, about what they hear on the tapes. Dennis:          You know, this subject of developing and cultivating romance in a marriage relationship is a discussion that is long overdue among Christian couples, because we ought to have among the most passionate relationships on the planet.  Our God created romance in the first place. Bob:                Well, we're going to talk on today's broadcast about how men and women view romance, and we've brought your wife, Barbara, back in the studio with us today.  Barbara, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara:         Thanks, good to be here. Bob:                And one of the things that we want to do is look at research.   Dennis:          Right. Bob:                You commissioned that be done at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences across the country – we had a researcher who talked with women about how they view romance, how they view it primarily, is that right? Dennis:          Actually, this Top 10 list of romantic acts came from both men and women. Bob:                Well, let me go over the list, Barbara.  I'm going to go from 10 to 1, and I'll read what people indicated expressed romance, and then I want to know, as a man, and I want to know how I can keep these ideas in front of me and sprinkle them into a relationship as a way to express romance – again, with no hidden agenda, no – not driving for anything.  Number 10, hands are romantic; holding hands, particularly, is romantic for a woman.  Do you like holding hands with Dennis? Barbara:         Mm-hm. Bob:                Why is that romantic for you? Barbara:         I do it because it says, "I want to be close to you, and I like you, and you're my friend, and I want to be next to you."  I mean, those are the kinds of things that communicates to me, and that's the reason that I initiate it, and I think that's probably the same for him, too.  So I think it's the closeness that it communicates. Bob:                Okay, how about Number 9, which is massaging one another – rubbing the neck.  Do you like when Dennis reaches over and rubs the back of your neck?  Dennis, massage oftentimes will have a sexual connotation, and some women may pull back from liking massage because they think it's just foreplay. Dennis:          Right. Barbara:         Exactly.  I think that's right. Bob:                So if it's non-sexual massage where it's just – "Let me rub your back, and you can fall asleep," then that's okay? Barbara:         Oh, I think so, yeah. Bob:                Number 8 on the list is serving – serving the other person – common courtesies – opening the door, holding a chair out for somebody, doing little acts of sacrifice.  Is that romantic for a woman? Barbara:         To me, I don't think of that as being as romantic, if I had to define them, as, say, holding hands but, again, I think it's important to do.  I think it says "I am denying myself for you.  I am going to serve you," and I think that anytime a husband can serve his wife sacrificially and do something for her, he's communicating to her that he cares about her and that he loves her and she's special, and he wants to make her feel special. Bob:                Okay. Dennis:          Let me make a comment on this next one – number 7 – because this made this spot in the combined list – 75 percent of the men picked this item as number 1 of what was most romantic.  So this, again, kind of lets you know the men viewed this substantially heavier and weightier than the women did because, together, it became number 7.   Bob:                So men had it at number 1, women – Barbara:         Someone must have had it a lot lower for the average to be seven. Dennis:          It must have been a lot lower. Bob:                And number 7 is a kiss – an unexpected kiss, a nibble on the back of the neck, or just kissing each other. Dennis:          Now, why do you think, Barbara, the women would have ranked that so much differently than the men? Barbara:         Because I think it probably, if the truth be known, they might have felt that he had another motive, and I just wonder if some of the women were feeling suspicious.  I think some of these other things might be able to be seen as an individual fact or as an individual gesture – Bob:                – so if he opens the door, she doesn't feel he's up to something, but if he kisses her, she wonders what's goin' on in the back of his mind. Barbara:         She might go, "Okay"—yeah, right – "I wonder what he's thinkin'?" Dennis:          And the rest of this list, really, if you look at it, with the exception of this and the massage – really, are statements of a relationship and women view romance through the eyes of a relationship.  They want to be loved, known – Barbara:         – understood – Dennis:          – there ya go – Barbara:         – accepted, valued, appreciated – Dennis:          – she knows the words – why did I even try, huh? Barbara:         Well, you did a good job. Bob:                It just wasn't complete.  All right, number 10 was holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8 serving one another, opening doors, common courtesies; number 7, kissing; number 6 was walking.  Now, there's a romantic 30 minutes – we went on a walk together – that's romantic for women? Barbara:         Well, it's very relational.  I think if you go for a walk, chances are you're going to go for a walk away from daily responsibilities – away from the telephone, away from the television, away from the children, away from work, away from whatever – and it allows you to focus on the relationship without having to sit on a couch and look at each other eye-to-eye and be relational, which is sometimes very threatening. Dennis:          And I think the reason why most men would respond just as you did, Bob, is because of what Barbara just said – it's not sexual.  When we think of what's romantic to us, and we really evaluate it, we would not put walking at the top of the list. Bob:                We're going to talk about this next week – but it is interesting, because I hear you saying in this – part of what speaks romance to a woman is "Get me outta here."  In the day-to-day of life with all of the kids and with all of the responsibilities – get me away from this for a little while, and that will be so refreshing to me, it will speak volumes.  That's at least a part of it, and then – have a relationship with me. Barbara:         I think that's part of it, mm-hm. Bob:                All right, number 5 on the list – something written – written notes or letters or poems or cards or notes on the bathroom mirror or just some written remind of affection – is that romantic? Barbara:         Mm-hm, I think it is.  In fact, I found this note, and I don't know how old it was, but Dennis had taped a note in the bathroom, and it said, "Have you found all the little notes around that say how much I love you?"  It was just fun to see that and read it again, and I thought, "You know, that's still true," and I don't know what the notes all were, but it was fun to see that. Bob:                As you said that, I was thinking it was years ago – I don't know how many years ago – but one night Mary Ann had gone to bed, she was exhausted, and I sat up, and I wrote a half a dozen of the notes, and I scattered them around the house in places where it might be weeks before she would find them, and one of them was in a recipe folder that she had for chicken dishes, and I just put it in there figuring, you know, it could be six months from now, but she'll find it, it will be a surprise.  Well, five, 10 years later, it's still in the same – every time I'm goin' through there, I go – Dennis:          – has she never seen it? Bob:                Oh, she's seen it. Barbara:         She's probably seen it and left it there. Bob:                But she's never thrown it away, and I keep – you know – why don't you throw this thing away?  I mean, it's old, it's on old stationery.                         All right, let me read through the list here again – number 10, hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, kiss; number 6, walking; number 5, something written; number 4, going out on a day – time away – dates with no kids, dinner out, a weekend at a bed and breakfast – just time alone together on dates.  Is that romantic? Barbara:         Yeah, mm-hm.  I think, for the same reason again, I think a wife feels that she is the focus of her husband's attention when she knows that he's doing this for her. Bob:                You two have made that a regular part of your relationship.  There is, as often as you're able, on a weekly basis, you have a date.  Does that make it less special? Barbara:         No. Bob:                It's routine? Barbara:         Huh-uh, not at all. Bob:                You look forward to Sunday night date night, even if it's every week? Barbara:         Yeah, I look forward to that moreso now than when we tried doing this when our kids were young.  We tried doing it when our children were young, and it was hard to do it, because it was hard to get babysitters, and it was hard to get away, and in those years, it was easier for us to spend time together at home because the kids all went to bed at 7:30 or 8, and we had two hours, at least, every evening.  Well, now that our children are older, it's really tough to get two seconds alone at home. Dennis:          Right, but when the kids were little, one of the ways we solved the problem of babysitters was we would go ahead and put the kids to bed, and then I would prepare the meal and would give Barbara 30, 45 minutes to run about doing her duties, and then I would take the meal upstairs to our bedroom and had a table at the foot of our bed that I put a nice tablecloth on and with the good plates and the napkins and the good silverware and had a beautiful candlelight dinner there, and when the meal was over, you didn't have to go anywhere and, frankly, we have some great memories of those conversations because at the end of the evening there was nothing to change the mood of the evening.  We didn't have to go anywhere – we were there, and I took the dishes downstairs while she got ready for bed and cleaned up the kitchen so she didn't come back downstairs the next morning to a dirty kitchen. Bob:                That really ties to number 3, which is meals.  Number 4 is a date together; number 3 is having meals together – special meals, candlelight, quiet dinner alone, picnics, a breakfast out together – those kinds of events, but what is it about a picnic away or Dennis saying, "Let's go out and have breakfast, just the two of us."  What is it about that that's romantic? Barbara:         Well, I think it's the unexpected.  The one that jumps off the list that you just read to me is picnic because that's one we've done so seldom, and that would be, to me, the most fun because that's one which is hardly ever done.  So I think keeping variety in it is really a good idea, but there's a lot (inaudible) – [crosstalk]  Bob:                – make note of that.  I'm just checkin' to see if you're makin' notes here. Barbara:         He knows.  We've talked about it.  It's just hard to pull off. Bob:                All right, number 2 is touch, and with this we're not talking about sexual touch, we're talking about holding or hugs or cuddling or affection in public and yet, even as I say that, I think, for a lot of women, being touched may always feel sexual to them.  They may, like with a kiss or with a massage, wonder what's really behind this, mightn't they? Barbara:         Well, I think so, but I think that's where a husband needs to know his wife, and he needs to ask her questions, he needs to seek to understand who she is and where she's coming from and why she feels the way she does and how she will respond to different things, because it may be that she will feel somewhat suspicious with physical touch.  And so he may need to assure her – "I just want to hug you because I love you – no strings attached, I'm just committed to you, and that's all I want you to know" – or something that helps her understand his meaning or his intent behind it, because I do think that, just like with holding hands, it communicates closeness, it communicates "I like you."  I think hugs and other kinds of affection that's non-sexual affection sends the same message.  It communicates I like you and I want to be close to you, and I think you're a neat person.   Dennis:          Yeah, one of the best-sellers at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference is Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life For Every Married Couple," and it's a book about romance, and when I first read this a number of years ago, I kind of laughed that he would need to take three pages in the book to give married couples exercises for learning how to touch one another.  But on page 184 through 186 he has 25 suggestions for touching, and I'll just read a couple of these, because they're really quite instructive, I think.                         "Number 1 – when dating, young people can scarcely be kept apart.  Most married couples have forgotten how much fun physical closeness can be.  So set aside practice times at night, at least once a week, to learn the delights of non-sexual body caressing."  At this point, in our marriage conference, when I read this, all the engaged people fall out of their chairs laughing.  The married people aren't laughing.  They're goin' "That's a good idea."                         "Number 2 – show each other where you like to be touched and the kind of touch that really pleases you.  Usually a light touch is the most thrilling.  Be imaginative in the way you caress."                         You know, I think he's onto something here to give us some practical thoughts about how to re-ignite exploration through tender touching of one another's bodies.  I think when we get married the familiarity with one another causes the loss of the intrigue, the exploration, and the excitement, and I think Dr. Wheat does a great job of giving us some practical projects that couples, I think, will find exciting. Bob:                I've got to imagine there are some men who are saying, "This sounds to me like a contradiction in terms – non-sexual touching.  I can do that, sure, but in the back of my mind, touching is, for me, sexually stimulating.  Whether it's holding hands, whether it's putting my arm around my wife, whether it's re-imagining the things we did on dates – that has a sexual dimension and for me not to have the sexual dimension fulfilled is a sacrifice on my part." Dennis:          That's the point.  I think to have those feelings is normal.  To deny that you have those feelings is not healthy.  I think it's okay to experience attraction, arousal, at that point.  I think what our wives are looking for is such a premium, such a value placed upon the relationship and who she is, that we are willing to set aside those desires and not take that touch toward what we, as men, would know would be the intended objective. Bob:                I remember the Ann Landers survey, you know, where they said, "Would you rather have sexual relations with your husband or just cuddle with him?"  And women, in droves, said, "I'd rather just cuddle with him," and I thought, "Do the women understand that cuddling with him is stimulating sexually?"  And that's the reason that it often goes on to sexual relations, because he's responding to what's going on inside of him, and you're saying he needs to put that to death from time to time. Dennis:          That's right – and not allow his mind to continue on.  He needs to build some limits that really communicate to his wife that "I'm willing to set aside my desires for you." Barbara:         Yeah, and I was just thinking, as you were saying about the survey that I think probably the reason a lot of women feel that way is they probably weren't loved and cuddled as children by their parents, and they missed that, and they have this deep longing to know that they are loved, and they want that from their husband, and if all they get from their husband is sexual initiation or sexual touching or cuddling, then they think, "Gosh, he doesn't really love me, he just needs me," or "He just wants me for his own pleasure, his own need," and so I think that's, again, another cue for a man to say, "I need to understand my wife.  I need to understand why she needs non-sexual affection," and I think we all need affection, because we need to know that we're valued as people, and that's a way to communicate that.  But I think that, for a husband, he needs to say, "Okay, why does she feel this way?  Why does my wife need non-sexual affection?"  And he needs to ask her, and they need to talk that through, and he needs to be willing to give it to her with no strings attached. Bob:                Mm-hm, okay, top 10 again – Number 10, holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, a kiss; number 6, walking together; number 5, written love notes to one another; number 4, going out on dates; number 3, having meals together; number 2 is non-sexual touching – Dennis:          – and number 1 is not diamonds. Bob:                Number 1, the most romantic act, according to respondents at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference – do you want to say what it was? Dennis:          Go ahead. Bob:                It's flowers – delivered, hand-picked, bringing them home – a single rose – it doesn't seem to matter.  I'll never forget being at a FamilyLife Marriage Conference where I was speaking, and I got – we were all waiting for the elevator, a whole group of us waiting for the elevator, and when the elevator car came, here came the guy holding a dozen roses, and he walked off – he was the flower delivery guy – and every woman at the elevator turned to watch, to see which room in the hotel he was going to, and they watched, and they watched – nobody got on the elevator, they just watched. Barbara:         How funny. Bob:                And finally, he went down the hall and finally he stopped at a room and as soon as he did, all these women kind of turned at their husband and glared at him, like, "That wasn't our room.  How come you didn't get me flowers?"  There is – what is it about flowers, Barbara? Barbara:         Well, I think flowers say that you're special.  I think it's the surprise that comes with flowers.  I think it's because they're unexpected.  I think because it's a frivolous thing, and I think it communicates love.  I think it says lots of things to a woman about love and about her being a special person, a valued person, an appreciated person – that her husband is willing to do that for her. Bob:                When Dennis brings home flowers do you immediately stop and think, "What's he up to?" Barbara:         I don't think I have.  I really don't think I have. Bob:                So we go through this top 10 list as men – we look at all of the non-sexual things that are on the list, and we say, "Are you sayin' I just need to keep doin' these over and over again, mixing 'em in, a little bit here, a little bit there, and expect nothing in return?" Barbara:         Yeah, but I think husbands need to ask the Lord to help them be creative and ask the Lord to help them think of their wives and ask God to help them understand and pursue, because it isn't – again, as we've talked about a formula several different times – but I think that the idea is that a woman wants to feel special and valued and appreciated and all of those words I've been using, and I think she needs to feel that from her husband in different ways at different times and unique opportunities. Bob:                You know, this is going to sound redundant, but just listening to all of this, I thought romance was supposed to be fun, and it this doesn't sound like as much fun as I had hoped it would be. Dennis:          But I think it is fun.  I think it is fun to find out what communicates romance to my wife. Barbara:         And it may not be fun in the way you've always defined fun, because I've learned to enjoy a lot of things through the years of being married to Dennis, because he has introduced me to things that I would have never done on my own and, likewise, he has learned to enjoy things that he would have never done if it weren't for me.  So I think we need to be willing to have our definition of fun broadened, because it will be fun, but it may be fun in a different way than what you're thinking and be willing to try something new.  You may like it. Bob:                Well, I just want to say thanks.  Can I thank your wife for being on the broadcast with us? Dennis:          Only after I do – honey, thanks for sharing your heart and being real for women, so – well – a lot of men can better understand how to communicate love and romance to their wives. Bob:                Yeah, and thanks for the insight I've gotten over the last three days of the broadcast on how women view romance.                           Well, on tomorrow's broadcast we're going to talk to – I don't know how to describe him – you described him as the "Michael Jordan of romance," right? Dennis:          Whatever you do, every man needs to listen to tomorrow.  You think you are a romantic husband – do not miss tomorrow, because you're going to be blown away by the guy we have the opportunity to talk to tomorrow. Bob:                I hope you can be here for it.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey, and I'm – Dennis:          – would you agree, Bob? Bob:                I would agree, absolutely.   Dennis:          All right, okay. Bob:                I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "Love and Marriage")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 3 off 8 Guest:                             Barbara Rainey From the Series:          A Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today with your host, the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  Today on the broadcast Barbara Rainey joins us to talk about what happens when a man loves a woman.  Stay with us for FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "When A Man Loves A Woman")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast, and if you were not here with us yesterday, you're in big trouble is what you are – if you're a man, particularly. Dennis:          That's right. Bob:                I took notes on yesterday's broadcast, and I've got my pencil ready today, because we're learning how a woman views romance.  Dennis:          We're learning how a woman thinks. Bob:                That's right.  And women think differently – that's not wrong – they think differently than men, don't they? Dennis:          They do, and, well, we've got someone in the studio who is definitely a woman.  She is a great woman, she is my wife, and it's really fun to have Barbara back with us on the broadcast again today.  Bob:                Yeah, Barbara, welcome back to the broadcast. Barbara:         Thanks, glad to be here. Bob:                You know, yesterday – and I've been thinkin' about this all night.  I went home and just kinda mulled on this.  It's a little frustrating to know that once I have an idea of how my wife views romance, she's going to change the rules on me – that was one of the lessons from yesterday's broadcast ­– and to be aware that romance is going to get progressively harder as we continue in marriage.  It was easy in courtship, but it gets progressively harder as we're married.  Is that right? Dennis:          Absolutely.   Bob:                Well, that's lousy. Dennis:          Well, you think about – what's God up to here?  He is trying to rid us of selfishness and, if we could, we would kick it in neutral and just coast all the way in to year 50 of the marriage – we wouldn't have to work at it.  It would just be like jumpin' off the edge of a cliff.  We would romantically fall into each other's arms and hopelessly under the control of romance, like gravity, and not have to really work at knowing and loving and caring for and meeting the needs of the other person.  And I think that's why God created marriage – He created it to be redemptive.  He wants me to give up my life for my wife. Barbara:         Exactly. Dennis:          And that's why romance becomes really elusive in a marriage where a man is threatening to leave or a man is sending all kinds of signals that he's not committed, and he's putting fear in the marriage, not casting it out.  1 John, chapter 4, talks about "perfect love casting out all fear," and that's a man's assignment, and a lot of men want their wives to fall in a puddle at their feet and romantic love in a swoon, but they're not willing to give up their hobbies, their interests, their selfish desires for their wives.  Now, how do I know that?  Because I'm a man, and because I've done that. Barbara:         See, when I was thinkin', when you talked about it being redemptive, I was thinking that as you were saying that, and that, ultimately, is what is going to draw a wife to her husband, because when she sees him loving her unconditionally, seeking to understand her and know her and be involved in her life and help her and all of those things, then she is going to respond to him, and as she sees him giving up himself and denying himself and getting rid of his bad habits or putting away his hobbies or whatever for her, those kinds of things are redemptive, and so I think that, in the long haul of things, as we see marriage as being a redemptive relationship, that is the hope of responding to one another.  That is the hope of having romance – is growing together in Christ, denying yourselves for each other, and especially for a husband as the head of the home and the head of his wife, as he will deny himself for her, as he will love her, as he will sacrifice for her, if he will seek to understand her – why she is the way she is and accept her for that and not condemn her for it and not seek to understand her so he can get her to change so he can be happy with her, but all in pursuit of loving her, then she will respond to that ultimately.  Again, it has to be for the purpose, though, that God intended, and that is to love her as Christ loved the church. Dennis:          With no response in return. Barbara:         That's right – with no strings attached.  In other words, he can't say, "I'm going to do this, and then she's going to respond, and then I'll get what I want," because that defeats the purpose of sacrificial love, because then it's not self-sacrificing. Dennis:          And that's the difficulty for a man, because a man usually sets goals, and he is after something, and with romance it may be the sexual dimension of the marriage relationship that he is in pursuit of his wife on, and that's why, as you approach this subject of romance and learning how to speak it as a man to your wife, you've got to understand that you deny your agenda and let the goal be solely that she would feel love; that she would know she is valued, cared for, and cherished, and that she is seeing you nourish her, just as Ephesians 5 talks about. Bob:                But here's the rub in that – because a man is thinking to himself – "The way I'll know that, the way I'll know that she's been loved is she'll respond." Dennis:          Right. Bob:                So if she's not responding, then the message is – Dennis:          "I haven't done a good job loving her." Bob:                I haven't done a good job – Dennis:          – and we've had that conversation. Barbara:         You've said that to me many times. Dennis:          I have. Barbara:         "I must not be loving you right," and it's not just because I'm not responding sexually or in a particular way, but you're sensing from me a lack of response toward you, and it's because of areas in my life that you didn't understand or that you didn't know about me or that I was unable to trust at a particular phase, and so we've talked those things through.  And I think good, solid, marriage relationships need to take the risk of talking those things through, and I needed to hear you say that, and you needed to hear back from me why I was not feeling loved, why I was not feeling like I could respond, and those kinds of conversations are not easy to have.  I mean, they have been difficult conversations that we've had through the years, but because of our commitment to making this thing work is to making it be all that God intended it to be, we have had some of those really tough conversations, and they've not been fun but, in the long run, as we've had them and had them again, they have ultimately been productive in bringing understanding to each of us, but particularly to Dennis in understanding me and in better how to love me. Dennis:          You know, as you were talking, there were really two things that I was thinking about – number one, the process that we have been through of 22 years of dialog, and I mean, at points, fierce dialog, I mean heated dialog, and the second thing is what we're talking about here has come out of something that is most fundamental, and that is a commitment, a bedrock, granite-solid that is immovable. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          No escape clauses, no escape hatches, no way out. Barbara:         And no threats. Dennis:          And no threats – never a threat.  This freedom of discussion has come about as a result of two people who are committed – committed, first of all, to Jesus Christ, because without the fear of the Lord and a commitment to Him and setting ourselves apart unto Him first, deciding He will be our Lord and Savior of our lives, our Master, our Redeemer.  He sets the agenda.  It is Him that must be obeyed above all else.  That settles it.  But there have been some evenings that lasted long into the night and some mornings that came early as a result of the dialog.  When we got up in the morning, and we looked at each other, there was no thought of going anywhere.  It was two people deeply committed to Christ, and that commitment was mirrored in our commitment to one another. Bob:                Yeah, those are the late nights or the early mornings, I'll look at Mary Ann, and I'll say, "You are not my enemy," and she'll say, "You are not my enemy," and we'll keep going, we'll keep after it. Dennis:          And I think a lot of young couples that are listening to our broadcast today and who go through life – they think they're entering into real war at these points and, yeah, it's rugged.  You're climbing some craggy cliffs at this point, but you know what?  That's a part of a relationship.  I mean, if it was easy and there were no rocky points, I guess I would have to say, "Hm, I think I may fear for you a little bit.  Have you not had anything hard to work through?"  I mean, I really fear for the couple who say they haven't ever argued, who haven't really differed, who haven't really had to hammer some of these misunderstandings out, because it's in those discussions that you realize how different you are from one another, and what a gift God has given you in your spouse. Bob:                I can imagine that there are women who listen to this discussion and they're going, "Yes, somebody understands what it's like to be a woman.  Somebody understands what women want romantically in marriage," and men listen to it, and they go, "This is much harder work than I ever thought it would be."   Dennis:          That's right. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          You go back, and you look at the first year of marriage, and the first year of marriage is like falling off that cliff.  We just kind of fall into each other's arms, and you can't stay away from each other, and you fall helplessly under the control of gravity – romance – and you get married and, all of a sudden, you realize it's not as easy to create that over and over and over again, and then you have children, and you find out it's very difficult, and then you've got health problems and there's job issues and then there are emotional issues and there are extended-family issues, and life becomes cluttered and crowded – Barbara:         – and complicated – Dennis:          That's right – where the Lord Himself is at work in your life whittling away and, at that point, it's where the commitment has to kick in, and two people must say to one another – "I love you, I'm committed, we're goin' for it," because, in the end, they are going to have a real relationship with a real person who knows them.  And I've said this to Barbara, even in the middle of some of our heated discussions over the past 22 years – I would rather have the discussion and have the understanding in one another's lives than to go through life denying that I'm disappointed or denying that we have a disagreement or denying that I've got feelings and, as a man, stuff it and have her think she's winning, and you've got to get some of those things out. But that is a risky feeling because that means the other person has to hear this and must hear it without feeling threatened or like they are being attacked or like the commitment is falling into question.  And that's a real challenge – to let somebody know that you're upset in the middle of the moment but still let them know, "You know what? I'm not goin' anywhere.  I love you, I'm committed to you, but we've got to talk this thing out," and this is where I'd give the man's side of things toward a woman, as a man has tried to love his wife, and he's missed it, and a woman needs to understand that at those points he may be feeling like a failure as a man.  He may have done the best he knows how to do, and he's got to be coached, and the time to coach him is not right after he fails because at that point he's probably feeling like a failure already, anyway.  But write him a letter, somehow communicate to him, but let him know how can he win you and then realize you're going to probably have to re-write that letter again in two or three years after he's – moves it to an A+B=C. Barbara:         Well, and let him know that you appreciate him trying – I mean, even that is worth a lot, because I think a woman who understands that her husband is trying to love her and is trying to understand her, she needs to let him know that she appreciates that and that she values that. Bob:                Do you love Dennis more today than you did 22 years ago? Barbara:         Oh, gosh, yes. Dennis:          I wouldn't go back to that first year of marriage – Bob:                Well, now, wait – with that said, how come it doesn't feel like it?  I mean, back 22 years ago, when all of the feelings were there, was gravity fallin' off a cliff – how come if you loved him so much more 22 years later it doesn't feel like it did then? Barbara:         Well, I think because I know him more, and I know what his love means.  I mean, I know what it's cost him.  I mean, it's cost him a lot to love me, and he has denied himself a lot.  He has given a lot, he's done a lot, he's prayed a lot, he's tried a lot, he's failed a lot, and I know that it's not cheap.   Bob:                Do you think there will come a time in the future when it will feel more like it did at the beginning? Barbara:         I suppose that there's potential for that, just because circumstantially, as the kids are gone and there are less pressures with children and the things that right now are making life stressful for me, and we have more opportunity to spend one-on-one time together, I suppose that there's a potential for that, but I – you know – Bob:                – do you think it will?  Do you think as the years go on, some of that early romantic feeling will re-emerge? Dennis:          I think that we have probably gone through one of the toughest periods, or seasons, of our marriage.  We had six kids in 10 years.  I think those years are among the most challenging.  Now we've just gone through another season where we had four teenagers at one time.  That's another season incredibly challenging – maybe even moreso than the six kids in 10 years, because there were some health issues occurring in that period, as well, that were making that especially challenging, too. But I think, little by little, as the kids leave, and as Barbara's attention can come back again – not solely to me, because her life has never revolved totally around me – but more towards me, I think there will be more room for that to happen, because there will be more time for just the two of us in our relationship and being together.  Because we can't go together a lot of times right now on a plane because she needs to stay here and be a part of the PTA or ministry outreach that the kids are having – or be there just to take care of the kids. Bob:                And it's the couples who, during the time when the kids are growing, who kind of move everything to the back shelf or let the flame die out, who reach that later time, and there's nothin' there. Dennis:          Yeah, and that's why this series on romance is so important – I don't think the Christian community is talking enough about romance.  I mean, it is important to a marriage.  Now, we've talked about how difficult it is to achieve, and it's elusive, and it's hard, and it's difficult, and you can't be guaranteed of it.  Now make it important.  Now it almost sounds like a crazy maker, but I think God wants us to have fire in our friendship with our spouse, and I think romance is that fire that flows out of that commitment and that friendship, and I think we've got to pursue one another because I think God put it within us both to long for it, to want it.  And in the process of longing for that, for a man, I think it provides the motivation to pursue his wife.  I think God gave it to him to do that so that he would pursue her.  Otherwise, if a man didn't feel that, what would there be to draw the man toward his wife?  Toward giving up his agenda for her and his rights?  I would have to say I don't know what the motivation would be, other than just some super-spiritual definition. Barbara:         Yeah, just obey the command. Dennis:          And that just sounds bland.  Who wants to experience that?  Barbara and I have anything other than a boring marriage.  Is there a lot of romance in our relationship?  Yes.  But is it the kind that Hollywood depicts on the screen?  She's shaking her head no.  No, it's not.  It's not.  It is much deeper than that.  I mean, that's shallow. Barbara:         The relationship and the commitment and the knowing one another and growing closer and closer together – that's what defines the romance, and that's what it blossoms out of – is that relationship. Bob:                Well, have a great weekend.  Be back with us on Monday because Barbara's going to join us again, and we're going through Dennis Rainey's Top 10 list of romantic ideas, right – the Top 10 most romantic ideas in America. Dennis:          That's right.  Are we going to give any of 'em today just to tease 'em? Bob:                No, no, no – they've got to tune in Monday.  This is information that you got from research that we did – Dennis:          – that's right.  We surveyed over 800 couples.  So this is the best of the best, Bob. Bob:                Well, doing my best Casey Kasem impression – "we won't quit 'til we get all the way to Number 1."  That's Casey Kasem.  Come on, you remember American Top 40, don't you? Dennis:          Oh, yeah. Bob:                Yeah, that's on Monday's edition of FamilyLife Today.  Join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey – Dennis:          Do you have these out-of-body experiences often? Bob:                I'm Casey Kasem, we'll see you Monday on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "When A Man Loves A Woman")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 2 of 8 Guest:                             Barbara Rainey From the Series:          Woman's View of Romance________________________________________________________________­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Your host is the executive director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine, and today we'll learn from Barbara Rainey just how a woman does view romance on FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "How To Handle A Woman")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis:          You know, Bob, because of who we have in the studio today, I've decided I'm just going to kind of push back from the microphone and get my notepad out and take notes. Bob:                Is that right? Dennis:          That's right.  I really feel, in due respect for my wife, she's an authority on the subject she's about to speak on and, in fact, you know what I'd like to do?  You can ask the questions – because of the nature of what we're going to talk about, it's pretty delicate, and for me to ask my wife these questions, I mean, this could get a little interesting.  So – Bob:                – well, I'm lookin' forward to this and, Barbara, by the way, welcome back to the broadcast.  It's great to have you on the program. Barbara:         You're welcome, it's good to be here. Bob:                And, Dennis, I'm going to get right to it, because we're going to be talking over the next couple of days about how a wife views romance, and I think the thing that husbands want to know, the thing that kind of puzzles us in this whole deal is what is it that we can do that causes our wives to go, "Ahhhh."  You know, just kind of look at us and melt.  I mean, does that happen with a woman? Barbara:         Well, I think it does, but I don't think it's necessarily a particular situation, because the things that are romantic to me aren't necessarily a situation or an act or a thing or a gift – all of those things communicate romance – but the particular situation isn't necessarily going to produce what you're talkin' about, which is what we've talked about a lot.                         You know what I think it is, I think it is the relationship that she has with her husband, and I have been reminded again, as I've been interacting with my family, and I have seen where I have come from and how desperately dysfunctional it was, and I'm thinking, "I am married to a man who has absolutely been a savior to me because of the love and acceptance and all that kind of stuff, and I have been attracted to him because I'm realizing what he's done for me relationally.  So it's not like he thought, "I want to romance my wife, so I'm going to go buy her flowers, and so A+B=C, and this is the reaction and the response I'm going to get," although I think that's very romantic, and I love it when he does those kinds of things, because that communicates sacrifice, it communicates he cares about me, he's willing to go out of his way, he's willing to spend money that, you know, we may or may not have in the budget for that – those are all things that are very meaningful, but it may not necessarily produce the desired response.  In other words, if he's doing it to produce the response, he is very often going to be disappointed.                         That's why I go back to the relationship – to me, it's the relationship that is ultimately going to fuel the romance.  And so when you ask what I thought of, my thought was – was the day that we spent together in September, and he took a whole day off work just to spend it with me to do what I wanted to do.  We worked in the yard, and we got in the car in the afternoon, we drove for four or five hours and just kinda took off, and we stopped when we wanted to, and we did what we wanted to.  I mean, it was like, in a sense, being on a honeymoon or being in those early days of marriage when we didn't have any responsibilities, and that was more fun, but it was romantic in the sense that it was just the two of us, and we could do what we wanted, and we focused on each other, and we didn't have the demands and the – I mean – we had to come back to it, but, you know – just for however many hours it was, it was really a treat to have him all to myself and to have him say, "I will do whatever you want to do," and we talked all day long.  It was wonderful.  It wasn't romantic in the typical sense of sweep her off her feet, carry her to the castle, and they lived happily ever after. Bob:                You know, as you said, the A+B+C, I thought – men want it to be algebra. Barbara:         That's right. Dennis:          They do, and therein lies the frustration as well as the intrigue. Bob:                And women don't want it to be algebra.  It's gotta be – Dennis:          ­– no, they don't want a book. Barbara:         But they don't want to be figured out.  See, I don't think women want to be figured out, because if they feel like they're figured out, then they feel like they're controlled and they're had, and they don't want to be figured out.  I think they want him to love her and be willing to pursue her and to continue to know who she is, because she's not that simple.  I think women don't want to feel like they're that easy to figure out and, "Oh, he's got me pegged," and A+B+=C, and it's going to always work that way.  I think she wants to be more complex and more intriguing and more – Dennis:          – of a challenge. Barbara:         Yes. Dennis:          Because if the man goes A+B=C, and he knows that's the way it works, then she knows – Barbara:         – that he'll do A+B=C every time, and that gets boring, and I think she would also begin to fear that she'd be taken advantage of and, see, women don't want to be taken advantage of, and I don't mean taken advantage of sexually.  I mean to be taken advantage of in any way – just assuming on the relationship and therefore there's no more motivation to continue to pursue, there's no more motivation – because if you've got it figure out, then why work at it? Bob:                So if a man says to himself, "I would like" – he's thinking, it's, you know, here it is Thursday, "I'd like a week from Friday to be a romantic evening together for me and my wife."  What can I do to foster that?  How can I create a romantic evening, something that will speak romance to her?  You're saying "Good luck, buster." Barbara:         No, I don't think it's that hopeless.  I think that a man can make some plans.  I think he can make dinner reservations.  I think he can bring her flowers.  I think he can do some things that are creative that will communicate to her that she's special, she's unique – "I love you, I'm willing to sacrifice for you."  But he needs to do it without the expectation of whatever it is his purpose is, because – see, the verse that I go back to all the time, as we've had these talks through the years – is I go back to the verse that says, "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church."  And Christ gave himself up for the church.  He denied Himself, and I think when a woman sees that her husband is denying himself for her, she responds to that, just as the church then responds to Christ, and I think she sees that sacrifice, and she understands that it's because of love.                         But when a woman sees a husband doing that for what appears to her to be his own personal need, then she feels somewhat manipulated or somewhat controlled or less valued.   Dennis:          Used. Barbara:         Used – I mean, I think it complicates things, because I think that her ultimate need is to be loved as Christ loved the church and be loved unconditionally, and I think when she feels that, then she understands that commitment and that trust, then she can respond to her husband as he wants her to and as he needs her to, but it's just not as easy as bring home flowers and light the candles and have a dinner and A+B=C. Bob:                But I'm not even talking about her responding to his need necessarily.  I'm saying – let's say a husband with the purest of motives says, "I want you to feel special next Friday night, so I'm going to get the sitter, I'm going to take you out to dinner," and he's out with her, and it's just not happening for her – for whatever reason, she doesn't feel special, she doesn't feel warm toward him.  Maybe it's been a bad week.  Well, the husband is sittin' there goin', "This was a waste of time and money, because she doesn't feel special.  What do I do now?  I tried the babysitter and the dinner thing, and that doesn't work." Barbara:         Well, it may not work because of the circumstances but, see, he needs to understand his role is to continue to pursue his wife, and he may need to say to her, "I'm sorry this didn't work out.  I just want you to know I love you, anyway, and this may not have been good timing on my part" or whatever, but I think that part of the challenge for a husband is to understand his wife and understand what communicates love to her and figure that out and then do that. Dennis:          And if what communicates love to her is surprise, then that may be what you've got to heighten in that situation.  I mean, just setting down and spending some time – having fun over nothing of any significance but just spending time together and maybe talking as we play a game. Barbara:         Well, the reason that is helpful for us is because we sort of exit the world of reality in a sense and so often it's the pressures of real life and all the responsibility that we feel, especially as parents, it's such an ongoing thing, and I think that suppresses a relationship.  It suppresses romance, it suppresses interest in one another in doing something that is frivolous.  And I think "frivolous" is a good word that needs to be involved in the discussion of romance, because it's often the frivolous things, which we think of, naturally, as flowers and candy and dinners, but it could be something like taking an hour in the evening, when you really need to be doing the laundry, or you really need to be doing something else, and the two of you sit down and play a game of spades or something.  So I don't think it has to be expensive, it doesn't have to be planned out necessarily.  It can be impulsive. Dennis:          It's those things that we did when we dated, and a lot of things we did when we dated were dumb things. Barbara:         Well, and they didn't cost much because most of us didn't have money when we dated – so a lot of times we did things like picnics.  You and I did that a lot. Dennis:          And I think what happens when you get married is you fall into a rut, and you stop pursuing your spouse – men do – they think they've got her all figured out, and that insults the wife when she begins to feel like it is A+B=C, and then what he's gotta do is, he's got to pull back and go, "Now, wait a second, how can I court my wife?"  And even I find it's interesting, when Bob asked you what's the most romantic thing I've done recently in our marriage that you would pick a day where there was no – what I would call "enchanted moment" – of carrying her off to the castle.  It was a day of relationship and a time of friendship – Barbara:         – and it was focused on me and what I enjoy, and that might not be what you would enjoy, and that's what made it – that's what made it special, because that might not have been what you would have picked, but that communicated to me that you were willing to deny yourself and to do whatever I wanted, and that speaks volumes. Dennis:          What would you say to the husband who doesn't understand his wife?  He's not a good student.  He perhaps has heard 1 Peter 3:7 – "Husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way," and yet, let's say, he's been married six to 10 years, and he still hasn't gotten it. Barbara:         Well, I think it's okay.  I really think that it is a long, lifetime process, and I – Dennis:          – I'm glad you said that, because I haven't gotten it in (inaudible) – [crosstalk]  Barbara:         – well, I just think – you know, I just think that you and I, in our marriage, have continued to discover things about each other, and we've been married over 20 years now, and I feel that way, and I know you have felt that way, and I think it's just a lifetime process that God has us on of getting to know each other and, as we're changing, we're going to find out new things about each other.  So I would just encourage husbands to not give up and not lose heart and instead be encouraged by the challenge, because you wouldn't want to marry somebody, really, if it came right down to it, if you could figure her out that quickly.  I mean, I would think that a man would want – that that would be a challenge to him, to his manhood, to think, "You know, there's a lot about this woman that I don't know, and I've got years ahead to figure it out and, God, help me do this." Bob:                Well, and you've hit on a big thing, because it is a challenge to his manhood, and if he's going for long periods of time feeling like, "I'm not winning at this," he's feeling like less of a man if his wife is not responding to anything that he is doing to try to spark romance and, again, we're not just talking about how he views romance, but he's just trying to make her feel warm and appreciated and affectionate. Barbara:         Mm-hm. Bob:                And he doesn't seem to be getting it, and he goes, "This is a challenge to my manhood.  What's wrong with me?"   Barbara:         I think part of it is understanding that a woman is not going to be easy to understand, and I think he needs to pursue her and say, "What can I do to let you know that I love you?  What communicates love to you?"  And that's a question that Dennis has asked me lots of times and sometimes I don't even want to talk about it, which isn't very nice, I suppose, but I think that's a good question for husbands to ask their wives  -- what communicates love to you?  What is it?  And she may not have an answer right off the top of her head.  She probably hasn't had time to think about it, but that communicates that he is interested in meeting her where she is with her needs, and I think that will begin to open up some dialog, it will begin to communicate to her that he really cares about her, and he's interested in her, and that's how you gain understanding – is by talking and asking and pursuing and spending time together, and it isn't going to come real easy.  It's going to take some time, though. Dennis:          And there's another side to that question, too, that you've taught me – because sometimes what communicates love to you, you may not feel loved as a result of what I've done, and that's a tremendous puzzle to us, as men. Bob:                I'm not following – what are you talking about? Dennis:          Well, I think, as men, we find out what communicates love to our wives as we create this checklist again – A+B=C. Barbara:         Again – yeah, right. Dennis:          And we're doing the things where she should feel loved, and the reason she's not feeling loved is because she senses we're pushin' the buttons, and our heart's not in it.  Am I saying that right, honey? Barbara:         Well, I think that's right.  I think anytime she feels like she's been figured out, you've had it.  That sounds awful, it really does. Bob:                But it's true, isn't it? Barbara:         Well, I really do think it's true, I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again.  It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times, and she loves it, and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged, and she doesn't ever want be gettin' it for the rest of her life, but I think that there needs to be variety, there needs to be creativity.  She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old prescribed pattern. Bob:                It sounds like there is an inherent distrust of men by women that you're always suspicious of our motives. Barbara:         Well, it may be, I don't know. Bob:                Well, maybe – Dennis:          – I think there is. Barbara:         Well, I don't know that you can say that about all women.  That's why I said there may be.  I think that, for sure, there is an inherent distrust in very many women today.  There have been too many abuses, whether it's happened to a particular woman or she's just heard about it.  There have just been too many stories, too many actual things that have happened for women not to be just a little bit skeptical.                          Now, I don't want to say that's true across the board, and I think there's varying degrees of mistrust, but I do think that is an element in many, many women's thinking.  So I do think that is true in many cases. Bob:                Well, if you feel secure in terms of Dennis's commitment to you, right, that's unquestioned.  You know he is committed to you. Barbara:         That's right. Bob:                Is trust still an issue? Barbara:         Well, see, I think that the commitment has to be tested.  See, I think women – it's like – years ago I remember Dennis sayin', you know, that he loved me.  I'd say, "Well, I know you do, but you're supposed to.  You're my husband."  You know, and it's almost like we begin to feel, after a while, that he has to say these things or he has to do these things because he's stuck with you.  So, in a sense, I think a woman wants to say, "Okay, I know you're committed to me, but are you glad you're committed to me?  Would you do this again?" Dennis:          Prove it. Barbara:         Yeah, I mean, do you really love me?  I mean, you say you do, but do you really love me?  I think it needs to be – I think, as she grows older and her life changes, there are so many issues that she continually faces as her life changes, that she needs to see, again and again, from her husband, "Yes, I'm committed to you; yes, I would marry you all over again; yes, I love you," and then he needs to demonstrate that in different ways.                         So, yes, I know Dennis is committed to me, but I have needed for him to prove that to me in many different ways at many different times.  And on the issue of trust, I think that is a parallel issue with commitment.  Yes, I trust him, but I've needed to see that he is worthy of trusting – that I can trust him with my life.  And I believed that at the beginning, when we first got married, but just as I've had to sort of test out the commitment through the years, I've sort of had to test out that trust factor, too, if that makes sense. Bob:                Yeah, you know, Dennis, it sounds like one of the things Barbara is saying here is that there will be seasons in a marriage, where, in spite of the awareness of the commitment, you know that you know that your husband is committed, but you feel like he's committed out of duty or obligation, not because he really wants to be committed to you, and those can be difficult seasons for romance. Dennis:          Yeah, but what you gotta do is move on through those, and what a husband especially needs to know is that he needs to be communicating that he is worthy of his wife's trust, and he needs to communicate to her that he loves her for who she is, not for what she can do for him, and what a wife is really expressing during those times, at least what Barbara has communicated to me, is that she just needs to feel like I love her, Barbara Rainey, for who she is as a woman and just set her apart from all other women in the world. Bob:                Well, on tomorrow's broadcast, more insight from your wife, Barbara, Dennis, on how men can understand a woman's view of romance, and I hope you can join us for that.                         Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "How To Handle A Woman")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic MarriageDay 1 of 8Guest:                       Dennis RaineyFrom the series:       Why Romance is Important _______________________________________________________________ (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E") Bob:                Believe it or not, this is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is best-selling author and conference speaker, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  Stay with us as we talk about L-O-V-E today on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis:          Do you think our listeners know who Nat King Cole is, Bob? Bob:                Oh, yeah, everybody knows who Nat King Cole is.  I bought a two-record collection when I was in college, just because I thought, "He's got the smoothest voice, it's the most romantic music I've ever heard." Dennis:          Well, you know, we also have a lot of romantic adventures at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, and I've got a letter here from a conferee couple who attended the Phoenix FamilyLife Marriage Conference – I think this was back in 1991.  This is a classic, keeper letter from the archives of the thousands of attendees who have been to our conference. Bob:                Now, this is on hotel stationery, right? Dennis:          That's right – the Hyatt Regency Scottsdale.  "Dear Dennis, when you suggested last night for us to be more creative in our romance, you never gave us the warning that it could be dangerous."  Then in all capital letters, it reads, "RULE NUMBER 1 – ALWAYS BE PREPARED!  AT LEAST WITH A SPARE KEY" – and now the rest of the story.                         "After dinner and the sunset, we decided to take your advice and to add a little romance and be a little daring.  Staying here at the hotel, we crept out onto our fourth-floor balcony for an incredibly romantic view, not to mention some privacy.  Unbeknown to us, while we were 'communicating' and 'learning more about each other,' the maid was inside our bedroom, turning down our bedsheets for us.  She did not know we were on the balcony.  We did not know she was in the room.  Maybe you can guess the rest.  She locked the sliding glass door."  It is signed, "Two lovers, romantic sky, and lots of privacy.  Embarrassed from California." Bob:                So you have no idea how they ever got back in, huh? Dennis:          Your mind is only left to wonder – how did they get back in, there on the fourth floor of the hotel? Bob:                Well, that is a part of what we hope will be a romantic evening for couples at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, but we hope that's not the end of romantic evenings for couples. Dennis:          Well, we really talk about FamilyLife Marriage Conference, taking Saturday and making it an adventure.  That's not the kind of adventure we're talking about.  We are talking about adding romance to your relationship, and I think at our conferences across the United States, that's what a lot of couples really seen infused back into their marriage relationship through all the teachings of scripture that build intimacy in their marriage relationship, they better understand how to relate to each other as husband and wife, and what I wanted to do, Bob, was I wanted to take the next few days, prior to Valentine's Day, and I wanted us to talk about the all-important subject of romance. Bob:                Now, you call it an all-important subject.  You kind of get the feel that romance is something that's a part of the courtship process.  After marriage, romance just doesn't seem like it has the same, you know –  Dennis:          – sizzle. Bob:                Yeah, yeah. Dennis:          Yeah, that's right.  Well, let me just read something from Song of Solomon, okay?  Song of Solomon, chapter 1, verse 2 – "May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is better than wine; your oils have a pleasing fragrance; your name is like purified oil; therefore, the maidens love you.  Draw me after you."                         Now, here's the Shulamite woman who is attracted to Solomon.  She is wanting her husband as the bride, and, you know, it's interesting that our God devoted an entire book of the 66 books that are in the inspired Word of God to this subject of romantic love, and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is I think Christians are afraid of the subject, Bob.  I think we're afraid to address this whole area of romantic love in marriage even though our God thought it all up in the first place. Bob:                Some people have suggested that Song of Solomon is a parable showing us God's love for Israel or Jesus' love for His church.  You're saying that God put it in the Bible to talk about the romantic relationship between a husband and wife? Dennis:          I wonder about the people who say that – if they really read the verses, because they've got to do away with a lot of physical imagery that doesn't leave that much to the imagination.  I mean, it's clear they're talking about the whole area of romantic and sexual love in a marriage relationship. Bob:                Is romance really important for a marriage?  I mean, can't a marriage survive just fine for 30 or 40 years and not have a whole lot of sizzle and spark to it? Dennis:          Well, I think marriages can survive, I think that's a key word, but will they be what God intended?  I say not.  One of the things that happens in a marriage relationship is if we don't have romance, something that adds excitement and adventure, intrigue, thrill, I think we get caught up in the negative about our spouse, and when you begin to focus on the negative and the faults of the other person, that relationship begins to spiral downward.  And one of the reasons why I think Valentine's is such an important time of the year, especially for the Christian marriages, is to remind us that we ought to be making this subject of romance a part of our everyday diet in our marriage relationship. The Bible speaks about, over in Proverbs, chapter 5, verse 15 and then 18 through 19, that a man was to be captured by his wife's sexual powers.  He was to be captivated by his wife.  That's a powerful image to be literally captured by your spouse.  The Bible is talking about this as far as thrill, excitement, adventure, an emotional excitement that I think sets a marriage apart from just a pure friendship.  I mean, Barbara is my friend, but there is a side of our friendship that goes way beyond just two friends who are pals to two people who, yes, share a marriage bed together and who dream thoughts and share intimacies that are shared with nobody else on this planet, and that's what God intended, I believe, in the marriage relationship. Bob:                Well, now, you've got 50 percent of your audience listening to you, goin', "Preach it, Brother Rainey.  Yes, amen."   Dennis:          And what sex might they be? Bob:                Well, some of 'em are women who are saying, "Yes, talk to my husband and teach him how to be more romantic with me," and others are men saying, "Yes, talk to my wife."  It's interesting that opposites attract in this area. Dennis:          Well, you know, therein lies a real problem in discussing this, because I'll just let our listeners in on some research we did out of our FamilyLife Marriage Conference.  We researched over 800 of our conferees at three different FamilyLife Marriage Conferences last spring about how they viewed romance, and, I've got to tell you, men and women view it through a different set of eyes.  A woman looks at romance through the eyes of intimacy, relationship, warmth.  It's that connectedness of the soul and emotions, heart-to-heart.  And the men looked at romance – well, how shall we say it?  It was one word – sex.  And you see what God is up to here, because he made us different.  We are to depend upon each other, and in the process of being different, I think what God wants to do is cause both of us to love each other where we are.                         You see what God is up to here, is I think God is wanting to knock the edges off of me, as a man, and our male listeners, learning how to love their wives in a way that communicates love so that she feels love – not how we feel about love or what communicates love to us as men but instead learning to put on the side of love that meets a wife at that relational point of need, and there are a lot of men today who I think are frustrated sexually in their marriage relationships, primarily – listen carefully – primarily because they still have not learned how to meet their wives' emotional needs so she can be released to meet her husband's needs. Bob:                Mm-hm.  I've had Mary Ann from time to time say to me, "I just don't feel like we've had an opportunity to talk with one another over the last two or three days," and for a wife that is a sign of drift in the marriage relationship, isn't it? Dennis:          Yeah, and I've had that same conversation with Barbara as well.  I think the reason God gave us romance is He gave us a mysterious emotional love that we were to experience together as a couple.  Even Webster's definition of romance, which talks about excitement, love, adventure – all those words, I think, are a part of what marriage ought to be – Christian marriage.  Our God designed these emotions.  I think romance – romantic love – is a part of the character of God.  May I quote a Christian statesman?  One of the most godly men who has ever lived who wrote a book, "My Utmost For His Highest."  It's been on the best-seller list for years – Oswald Chambers.  Listen to what he said about passion in Christian marriage.  "Human nature, if it is healthy, demands excitement, and if it does not obtain its thrilling excitement in the right way, it will seek it in the wrong.  God never made bloodless stoics.  He makes passionate saints." I love that quote, because I think that's the picture of a God who loves his people and who wired us to have excitement and thrill and adventure.  It's not just for the single people who are involved in courtship, or just for the newly married couple who are just starting out with the high-intensity, high-octane of fresh married love.  No, that romantic love, I believe, was meant to still pull us along and sweep us along in a steady current all the way through our married life. Bob:                And yet it's become almost a cliché, Dennis, to talk about the honeymoon being over.  It does seem that relationships go through some kind of stages. Dennis:          Well, at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, we talk about there being five phases of marriage deterioration.  In other words, every marriage goes through some predictable phases where it begins to lose steam, and reality begins to set in.  The first phase is what we call the "romance phase," and that's usually dating, honeymoon – it's when we're spending hours to get ready for a date, hours to plan the date.  Each person sees each other at their very best, but it's not a real picture of a real relationship. This phase gives way to Phase 2, which we call the "transition phase," and this is honeymoon or early marriage, and I like to say at this phase – this is where reality begins to edit the illusion.  The illusion of what we thought was a relationship is now being snipped away at by the cold, hard realities of life, and couples begin to make adjustments to each other in their values, their habits, their expectations, and can give way to criticism and snipping at each other, and the feelings begin to lower during this period of time. Well, Phase 2 gives way to Phase 3, which is the full-blown reality phase and, frankly, this is where marriages are either won or lost.  Some of the things that press in against us during this reality phase – moving – a lot of couples move after they get married; differing friends; job changes and stress; conflicting material values – they start seeing how they handle the checkbook; children come along, there's parenting pressures; in-law interference; difficulties; health issues; problems in life – all of these things press in against the relationship and now the illusion has been fully edited. Bob:                And they begin to put a little chill on the romantic side of marriage, don't they? Dennis:          Well, romance is replaced by disappointment and discouragement, and when that begins to fuel the relationship, two people who had turned toward each other in the dating years now can turn against each other, and that really leads us to the fourth phase, the "retaliation phase," and that's where emotional and even physical retaliation becomes an alternative, and it's unthinkable that a couple who had held hands would now cut away at the person they said they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with.  Resentment and bitterness begin to take up residence where romance had once been.  A man begins to sell his life out to his job, because that's where he gets rewards; women to likewise, or she sells her life out to her children, and what begins to happen here is marriage is viewed with despair – no longer expectancy, excitement or thrill.  You don't look forward to getting home in the evening and spending the evening together or the weekends together.  You find a way to allow that relationship to be crowded out.  And that really gives way to the last phase, Phase 5 – that's the "rejection phase," and that's the death of a relationship in which there are really two alternatives – one which is legal divorce, where two people separate and go their own ways or, really, where most relationships end up dying, and that is emotional divorce, where two people just simply withdraw from each other, and there's a truce.  Bob:                It seems like in the early phases that you describe, Dennis, romance is easy.  In the last two phases, it's almost impossible, because of the anger or the bitterness or the other things that have begun to take root.  It's really in that middle phase, the reality phase, where, as you said, the battle for romance is won or lost. Dennis:          You know, that's where we've got to win the battle, is before you ever get to this time of resentment and retaliation and rejection, where you're at the tail-end of the relationship, and you've got to breathe so much life back into the marriage it almost seems hopeless.  But you know what?  I want to go back to that reality phase, because that's where all of us live.  We've all got to learn, in the midst of the time pressures with kids and finances and jobs and health issues – how do we hammer out a Christian life? You know, I've given the better part of two decades here at FamilyLife dedicating myself and this ministry to writing books like, "Staying Close," to helping couples deal with the reality phase, or "Building Your Mate's Self-Esteem," another book where we talked about how you can build up the other person so you don't ever get to the point where you're rejecting your spouse; or the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, which is a weekend to help couples go back to that reality phase, and give them a biblical game plan for how they can move through reality and move on to blessing, where their relationship and love for one another matures and grows, and I think that's exactly what God wants to do, as He instructs us to the scripture.  He is moving us to mature love, commitment, and it's nothing that's not spoken enough about today, and we're going to be talking about it a lot here in the coming days. Bob:                Well, Dennis, some of our listeners are thinkin', "The last thing on my mind is romance at this point.  We've moved into Phases 4 or 5 – retaliation or rejection, and the anger and the bitterness that is a part of this – I can't even think about romance.  Is this series going to apply to me?" Dennis:          I think it will, and we're going to be sensitive to those couples who are finding themselves in unequally yoked marriages where a person is married to someone who is not a believer or someone who is not growing spiritually.  Perhaps Psalm 27, verse 13 would bring some hope – "I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.  Wait for the Lord, be strong, and let your heart take courage.  Yes, wait for the Lord."  And I think there's a time to wait in prayer, but there may be some things that a person can do in that situation, where you're married to a spouse who is totally apathetic about that relationship, and if you're in that situation, could I encourage you to, yes, do pray, and do ask God to deliver you from despair and begin to give you the courage that only He can give you to build into that marriage and perhaps by adding romance back into that relationship, perhaps that will be the missing ingredient to help your spouse come to faith in Jesus Christ.                         Let me just conclude our broadcast today with some action points that can help you be a better romantic lover of your spouse.  First of all, take a romantic inventory of your relationship.  On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being excellent, how would you rate romance as a part of your marriage relationship?  Tonight ask your spouse to do that and then compare notes and see how you're doing.                         Secondly, and this comes from the questions book.  You shared about how listeners could get a copy of that – from the questions book, I like to ask Barbara this question all the time, because it really does spark romance in our relationship, and it sounds odd, but I ask her this question – What are the three most romantic times that we've shared together?  What brought those sparks originally?  What's caused romance?  Why would you select that?  And there's something about reliving those romantic moments that I think gives us insight into why our spouse chose that and can also add that excitement back to our relationship today.                         A third application point would be to pray and ask God to help you begin courting your spouse.  You know, there are some listeners who are in a hurting marriage, where that's where they need to start right there – is in prayer asking God to give them some hope, to begin to court their spouse once again. Bob:                Well, let me add a fourth, and that's to join us back here tomorrow at this same time, when we're going to talk about the "romance robbers" in a relationship – the foxes in the vineyard, right? Dennis:          That's right. Bob:                That's on tomorrow's edition of FamilyLife Today.  I hope you can join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Differences Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: Engaged couples often look at one another and think, “We're so much alike!” Then, after they have been married for a little while, they look at each other and think, “Who are you?!” Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: What happens when we're engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike. We love each other so much—we'll never have clashes.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now what do I do?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 15th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So what advice would you give to young wives and their husbands about the adjustments we make in marriage? We're going to hear what Barbara Rainey has to say about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I am really enjoying learning lots of new things about you, Barbara. Dennis: You're eavesdropping. Bob: Well, it's legitimate eavesdropping because of what your wife's been writing about. This has been so much fun to read. [Laughter] Dennis: I think I want to welcome her to FamilyLife Today—Sweetheart. Barbara: Maybe we don't; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: This is my bride, and she has plenty of stories to tell. Bob: And she has just recently—by the way, welcome, Barbara—nice to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: You've been collecting these stories, not to share with the world your stories, but really to mentor—you've become an e-mentor; haven't you? Barbara: Yes. I'm really writing this for six women / six young women, who happen to be my four daughters and two daughters-in-law—to share with them the lessons that I've learned over all these years of marriage in hopes that it will encourage them, and give them hope, and help them—help them persevere for the long haul. 2:00 Dennis: But it actually started—back to Bob's point about—from an e-mentoring standpoint—really started on the internet— Barbara: It did. That's right; I had forgotten. Dennis: —as you were writing emails to your daughters and daughters-in-law so that you'd be able to coach them / encourage them in the process. Bob: Did you start doing this right after Ashley got married? Barbara: No; actually, it was after our two boys got married. They got married the same summer—the summer of 2001. One of those two girls asked me if I would give her some advice on being a wife. I thought: “Wow! She really wants my advice?” I thought, “If she cracked the door open a little bit, I'm going to just walk right on through while the door's open!” I said, “Sure, I'd love to!”  I began writing a series of letters in the fall of 2001 to my two brand-new daughters-in-law and to my daughter, Ashley, who, by then, had been married four years. Bob: A lot of—a wife will hear you say that and they'll think, ““Boy, if somebody asked me, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.”  3:00 But it sounds like you were ready to dive right in with wisdom. Barbara: Well, I don't know that I would say it that way, but I was ready to dive in—in the sense that I felt like, “Now was the time,” because all new brides are extremely teachable—they're eager, they want to learn, they want to do it right, they don't want to make mistakes—they really love this guy they just married. They're most teachable and most coachable in those early years. I wanted to begin by sort of exploiting that—in a sense, in a good way—by saying: “Here are some things that I learned / here are some lessons I learned along the way. Here are some stories of what we went through / what I've learned from it. Perhaps, it will be helpful.” Dennis: Over the years, we've—who knows how many hundreds of Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways have been held by FamilyLife—we've looked into the eyes of those in attendance.  4:00 It does seem that the engaged couples and the newly-marrieds are, not only on a steep learning curve, but they're much more teachable and kind of spongy in terms of soaking in the truth. What we wanted to do—and what I encouraged Barbara to do with this book—is take advantage of a window into the soul to speak a lot of relevant truth that she's learned, as a woman from the Scriptures and from other older women who have coached her, and really help these young wives get started on the right trajectory.  Bob: They didn't ask you about a specific subject. They just said, “Help me be a wife.” How did you know, “Okay; I'll start here”? Barbara: Well, what I did is—I just thought back to those early days in our marriage and tried to remember: “What were the lessons that I learned? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?” Bob: Like that early romantic date that Dennis took you on? Barbara: Yes, like that one. Bob: Tell our listeners about—[Laughter] Barbara: You like this; don't you? [Laughter] 5:00 Bob: —how ““Prince Charming” swept you off your feet. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. While we were dating in the summer of 1972, which was of course in the dark ages—one Saturday / it was probably on a Friday afternoon Dennis asked if I wanted to hang out on Saturday afternoon. I said, “Sure.” He picked me up in his— Bob: Now, let me interrupt you just so we get a context. Barbara: Okay. Bob: You guys had been friends for years— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —since college.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Right. Bob: [To Barbara] After college, you went to the east coast and worked with Campus Crusade. Barbara: Correct. Dennis: University of South Carolina. Bob: [To Dennis] Where did you go? Dennis: I was in Dallas/Ft. Worth area, working with high school kids.  Bob: You kept up your friendship—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —but there was nothing romantic between the two of you. Barbara: No, nothing romantic. We had been really good friends for three years. I really thought of Dennis as a brother—he was just a great, great friend. Dennis: She showed up in Dallas and needed to be shown around—kind of where everything was / kind of how you get around—so I'd pick her up, take her to work. Bob: Now, were you thinking of her like your sister at this point? 6:00 Dennis: Yes, I really was. It was not romantic—it really wasn't—which is really a cheap shot on your part—[Laughter]—to call out this thing that I took her on as a romantic date because we were just hanging out! Barbara: That's right—we were. Bob: Was this before—this date we're about to talk about—was this before or after you had tried to hold hands with her in the parking lot? Dennis: Way before. Barbara: I have no idea. Dennis: Way before. Bob: Really? Barbara: I would think so—yes. Dennis: Oh, yes; oh, yes. Bob: Okay. Barbara: I would guess. Bob: It's just friends: “Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?” Dennis: Yes. I'd take her back to her apartment, and we'd kind of sit on the stairs and talk— Barbara: Yes. Bob: Just visit. Dennis: —until about 2:00 in the morning—[Laughter]—just like a couple of friends. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. [Dennis laughing] Bob: Okay. So he says, “Do you want to hang out tomorrow?” and he comes and picks you up. Barbara: He did.  Bob: Did you know where you were going? Barbara: You know, I don't remember—it was too long ago. I don't remember if I knew or not, but I knew it was casual. I knew we were going to go on a picnic. He took me to some remote place outside of Dallas/Ft. Worth— 7:00 Bob: Now wait. I've got to stop you here. You're taking her on a picnic. You're not taking your buddy—“Let's go hang out,”— on a picnic. There's more going on here in your mind [Barbara laughing] than just, “Let's hang out together.” Dennis: She needed to understand where the riverbanks were— Bob: Alright.  Barbara: Like I really care! Bob: We understand one another here; okay. So he picks you up? [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. We take off to parts unknown because I'd never really been in Texas in my life. I didn't know where we were going, but I trusted him. We show up at this stream, or river, or pool of water, or something—I don't know where it was! Dennis: I don't know where it was—it was below a dam somewhere. Barbara: Gosh; I couldn't begin to tell you. Dennis: It was murky / it was fishy-smelling. It was a great date! Barbara: All I know is he pulls out a fishing pole—fishing rod / fishing thing—I didn't know what a fishing thing was! [Laughter] Oh, how funny! Bob: One of the things you observed or learned, when you shared this story with your daughters—it was really to talk about the fact that, in relationships, you've got to make some adjustments and be ready for the fact that you're two very different people. Barbara: Exactly; because after we married, about three months later, we moved to Colorado.  8:00 In Colorado, there was abundant fishing.  Bob: You married three months later—after the fishing date? Barbara: Yes! Dennis: You caught up on that small detail. [Laughter] Bob: I just thought our listeners ought to be aware. [Laughter] It went from zero to sixty. Dennis: I'm a man of action, Bob. Bob: This was a sports car relationship. [Laughter] So, from the day you said, “Will you…” to the day you said, “I do,”— Barbara: —was six weeks. Bob: Six weeks? Barbara: Six weeks. Bob: You said, “I'll be the Fish Queen for as long as we both shall live.” [Laughter] Dennis: Then, on our honeymoon, I took her camping and trout fishing. [Laughter] We need to get to the point of the book though—she's talking about how we, as men and women, are different. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: I mean, we did start out our marriage—really, not polar opposites—because we enjoyed one another. Barbara: Yes, we had a great time; but, had you asked me what I would have pictured for the early years of our marriage, I would not have pictured traipsing around in the mountains—  9:00 —fishing, and camping, and all of those things—because none of that was a part of my background, growing up. They were totally brand-new experiences. I learned, by those experiences, that marrying someone is merging together two vastly different—not just personalities—but life experiences. As Dennis used to say, all the time, “It's like merging two countries.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because we are very different, as men and women—we're very different in our life experiences / our outlook—everything is different. So those early years are years of discovery. What you do with what you discover sets the tone and the foundation for your marriage. Bob: Obviously, we're talking to Barbara Rainey, who is joining us today on FamilyLife Today. We're talking about the wisdom that you want to pass on to younger women—specifically to your daughters—about being a wife. You've just written a book called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. 10:00 What are the big ideas that you want to pass on to your daughters in this area of marital differences? Barbara: First of all—the first big idea is that there are going to be differences. It‘s normal to be diametrically opposite on all kinds of fronts. Because what happens—when we're engaged / and dating but then engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike, and we love each other so much—we'll never have clashes. Yes; if we do, we can handle them. We love each other so much that it's not going to be difficult.”  I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating.  Bob: Yes. Barbara: All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now, what do I do?” Bob: We have this tendency to think different means wrong. Barbara: Wrong; yes. 11:00 Bob: “This is the way I think; and it's the way I think naturally. So I must be right; and if you think differently, we need to fix you so you think like me.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: That's part of the awakening and adjusting that both wives and husbands have to do in the early stages of a relationship; right? Barbara: Exactly; because that's one of the beautiful things about marriage—is how it broadens our perspective. I write about that in telling these stories about fishing. I knew nothing about fishing; but because of who I married, the horizons of my life have been greatly expanded and broadened. I could have either fought that, and resisted that, and said: “I don't want any part of that! That's foreign to me. I don't like it”; but by embracing who he was, and his differences as a person, my life is much richer because of that.  I think, if we can encourage these young wives—and husbands too / but this is for the wives right now—to welcome those differences as an opportunity to grow as an individual, it will make it easier. Dennis: I like what you wrote in your book here— 12:00 —you said: “These new realities created some minor earthquakes in my life—rumblings that shook my familiar, comfortable foundation. I was discovering that we were not as much alike as I'd originally thought. We were opposites who were attracted to one another but found ourselves, like magnets, that repel each other.” And then she goes on to write about how I would make a decision compared to how she would make one.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: I'd see something that needed to be done or something I felt like we ought to go do—I'd process at the speed of light and off we'd go.  Bob: Right. Dennis: Barbara, on the other hand, processes a little slower. In fact— Barbara: —a lot slower. Dennis: —a lot slower. Barbara: Is that what you were going to say? Bob: A little more thoughtfully—with a little broader perspective. Dennis: I've been enriched by that, but I promise you—if, early in our marriage, we had set up war with one another in two separate bunkers.  13:00 You could easily have built a case between two very different people, who had started out their marriage together, but now really can't get along and don't see one another—as we teach at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—as “God's perfect gift for you.” Bob: You describe how you began to approach these differences in your marriage. You call it the “Bookend Principle.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Explain what that is. Barbara: The Bookend Principle is something that Dennis and I practiced with one another; and then, after the fact, sort of came up with the name for that. What we have done through the years is—when we've had disagreements over our differences or conversations trying to understand one another—we would say to each other: “I love you, and I would marry you all over again. This may be hard, this may be confusing, this may be difficult—it may not be fixed in a single conversation, like we would always like; but that's okay. I love you and I'm committed to you, and I would do it all over again.” 14:00 That statement of reaffirmation of our vows and commitment to one another provides a level of security to continue to have these discussions about our differences. I think it's a good habit. It was a good habit for us because you can get so caught up in how different we are—and how his differences grate on me or make life difficult for me and my differences make life difficult for him—that you can subtly switch to becoming enemies rather than allies. Bob: Were there times, or events, or evenings when you weren't sure you loved him and you weren't sure you'd marry him all over again? Barbara: No. There were times when I didn't feel loving—without question—but I never got to the place where I thought, “This was a big mistake,” because I knew that God had called us to marry each other. I knew that we were doing what we were supposed to do. So, therefore, if this was God's will, and it was, then He would enable us to figure it out with time. Bob: That issue was settled. Barbara: Yes; “Done.” Bob: That wasn't open for reevaluation— Barbara: No. Bob: —reexamination— Barbara: No. Bob: —re-discussion.  15:00 At some point—when you stood and said, “I do,”—the ships were burned. You weren't going to reconsider whether— Barbara: I think that's the mistake too many young couples are making today—is they get into it, and it becomes difficult—instead of saying, “We can work this out,” they say, “Gosh; we must have made a mistake.” They move to, “This is a mistake, and maybe there's a way out,” rather than, “We can find a way through this / we can make it work,” and stick with it for the long haul. Dennis: I look back on our marriage. I don't remember ever entertaining the thought. And I mean by entertaining—I'm talking about cultivating the thought that I'd made a mistake. I do wonder, looking back on it—this Bookend Principle of kind of starting out with a commitment that says, “I love you,” and then maybe, in the midst of an argument or after the argument has been exhausted, you say again: “I'm committed to you. I'd marry you all over again.”  16:00 It creates a safe place for two imperfect, very different people to hammer out their relationship together. I think we're an instant culture that is not used to having to take a lifetime to achieve this thing called “oneness.” What we were doing, back then—we were going through some very hard ground. I mean, it had not been plowed before—two very independent people—who had joined together in marriage, and who did rub one another the wrong way, and who, in their differences, missed each other over, and over, and over again—and, as a result, mis-communicated, disappointed, hurt one another. How do you maintain a relationship in the midst of that if you're not committed?   Bob: I think it's important because we can laugh about fishing dates, and whether you like fishing or not; but a lot of folks, who are listening, are going, “Look, our differences are not around whether you like fishing or not— Barbara: Yes; exactly. 17:00 Bob: “Our differences are around core, fundamental, deeply-held issues in life. The fact that we're miles apart on this—I just don't know how to live with a husband / or a wife who does not embrace what's dear to me at the center of my being.” Barbara: Yes. That is a very difficult place to be. Even though Dennis and I never really had a crisis quite to that depth, we missed each other plenty of times. There are seasons in a marriage when it's very dry and when there doesn't feel like there's much life. I would have to say that: “There is hope. There's always hope, as long as we have breath, that if you are committed and you are teachable—both of you are teachable—and you hang in there, there will be a solution, given time.” I think that we expect too much too quickly. We would like to have it happen quickly—I would like to have it happen more quickly too, but that's just not the way of a marriage.  18:00 A marriage is slow, steady growth over a long length of time.  Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3, the way God commands a marriage to start is He commanded a man and a woman to leave father and mother. He commanded them to cleave to one another / to be committed to one another. And third, He commanded them to receive one another—to receive the other person as God's gift for you. If you practice those three concepts—leave, cleave, and receive—over, and over, and over again—if you practice that in your marriage / especially, in the early years—it doesn't mean it's ever going to be easy. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I asked Barbara how she would summarize our marriage. I was kind of hoping for “romantic,” [Laughter] “chill bumps”— Barbara: —“wonderful.” Dennis: You know? But instead, you said? Barbara: “It's been hard.” Dennis: “Hard work.” Barbara: “Hard work”; yes. 19:00 Dennis: Lots of hard work. I think a lot of young couples—and for that matter, older couples—are starting out marriages today not really expecting it to be as challenging and to demand perseverance like it does Bob: I just have to come back around here because you're right in this section of your book that—not only did your marriage start off with fishing—but through the years you've learned to enjoy hunting with your husband? [Laughter] Is that true? Barbara: Well, not by his definition; no. Not by— Dennis: I was waiting for the answer to that question. Bob: I'm going to read to you what you wrote. Barbara: Okay; okay. Read what I wrote. Bob: “And I have learned to appreciate hunting.” Barbara: Yes, “appreciate it.” Bob: Maybe “appreciate” is a better word than— Barbara: “Appreciate” is a better word. Yes Bob: “I actually went with him on an elk hunt a few years ago— Barbara: Yes. I did. Bob: — “with the camo, the face paint, and the human scent killers sprayed on my body.” Barbara: [Laughing] I did! Barbara and Bob: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] Bob: That's what you say right here: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter]  20:00  “We hiked and hiked and snuck up on a herd of elk hiding behind trees like clandestine spies following a double agent down a dark alley in Eastern Europe. It was really fun!” Barbara: It was fun! [Laughter] Bob: But the point is that we're going to face these differences in the first years of our marriage.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Some of them crop up ten years in—fifteen. It's a life-long process of understanding “We're different,” and making those adjustments. Barbara: Exactly. That really is the point that I'm trying to make with these girls—is that the differences are there—they're not to be changed and they're going to be there for life. I think we somehow assume, early on, that a lot of this stuff is going to subside, or change, or moderate; but who we are is who we are.  I'm just amazed at how little really changes over time. You either fight it, and resent it, and resist it, or you join and learn to actually enjoy it and appreciate it.  21:00 Now, do I love to go hunting? No. I enjoyed that because it was active. We were hiking in the mountains, and it was beautiful. Dennis: And it was warm. Barbara: And it was reasonably warm; yes. But the kind of hunting that he is often inviting me to go on—which I have refused—is the kind where you get up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, in the winter, and you go sit. You can't talk / you can hardly breathe, and it's freezing. [Laughter] Hiking in the mountains—we could talk as we went—until we actually saw the elk / then we had to be quiet. It was a much different kind of experience so I could appreciate that one. But sitting in a deer stand—I've done it once and I'm not real interested in going there again. Bob: The point is—you don't have to be interested in going there again to make your marriage work. This is a part of the dance. One of your chapters in your book, “Marriage Is Like Beautiful Dancing”—  22:00 —“Part of the dance is understanding what we do together and where it's better to leave each other some space and some time to do things apart.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: I just think you have given some real great practical wisdom to a lot of wives in what you've written in your book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's brand new, and you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for the book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us. Now, as both of you guys know, this is our 40th anniversary as a ministry—2016. All year long, we are celebrating anniversaries. Today, we want to congratulate Abigail and Angelo Pinheiro. They live in Princeton, New Jersey. They listen to FamilyLife Today on WFIL. They're celebrating 21 years of marriage today. “Congratulations!” to the Pinheiros—“Happy Anniversary!”  23:00 We'd love to help you celebrate your anniversary this year. In fact, if you will go to FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date, we'll have some suggestions for you this year on how this year's anniversary can be the best anniversary ever. It's all because we are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries.” There are a lot of anniversaries that have happened over the years because of how God has used FamilyLife in people's lives for 40 years now. Thanks to those of you who make FamilyLife possible. We're listener-supported—we depend on your donations in order for this ministry to exist. This month, we're hoping that God might raise up, in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard, 20 new families who would join us as Legacy Partners. We're asking you—if you're a regular FamilyLife Today listener / if God's used this ministry in your life: “Would you be one of the families in your state to help support this program?”  It's easy to do—go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “DONATE.”  24:00 There is information there about becoming a Legacy Partner or about how you can make a one-time gift to FamilyLife Today. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” We'll explain the whole process to you when you call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk about the spiritual foundation in a marriage and how important that is. Barbara Rainey will be back with us. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Being His Helper Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                                                        From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 3 of 3)                Bob: The Bible calls women to be helpers to their husbands; but as Barbara Rainey points out—sometimes, when you're trying to help, you're not helping. Barbara: I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson—it's that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah! I need to be his friend. We're peers, we're equals, we're teammates; and we can work this out together,” rather than it—letting it become this great obstacle. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How can a wife be a helper to her husband?  1:00 We're going to explore that today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I had somebody share something with me a long time ago. I always thought this was interesting—they were talking about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our life. They were saying that the word for the Holy Spirit in the Bible is the word, Paraclete. Dennis: Right. Bob: What they said was: “There's a difference between a paraclete and a parasite. A parasite is something that attaches itself to you and just sucks the life out of you.” Dennis: Right. Bob: “A paraclete is something that attaches itself to you and pours life into you.” I mean, that's always stuck with me. I've thought, “That's not only true of our relationship with the Holy Spirit—He does attach Himself to us and pours life into us—but all of our relationships tend to be parasite or paraclete relationships”; don't you think? Dennis: They do. It's interesting—  2:00 —that in the Scripture, God refers to Himself as our Helper. I think the Holy Spirit is our Helper. Bob: Yes. Dennis: He comforts us / He gives us the power to live the Christian life. Bob: Jesus said, “I will send another Helper,”—indicating that He had been the Helper. So Helper really—God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit—are all identified as “Helper.” Dennis: That's right; but if you go all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, the first use of the word, “helper,” is not referring to God but referring to the woman that God made for man. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I know, for Barbara, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today—Barbara, welcome back. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: She's written a book that is—was first written for our daughters, as they married, and our daughters-in-law as they married our sons. One of the first sections of the book talks about the role of being a helper. You believe that's important; don't you? Barbara: I do. I think that we have come to think of helper in a more negative sense——more as a servant.  3:00 Yet, when you go back to the very beginning—as you were just talking about a minute ago—and realize that God used that term to describe the woman / to describe Eve when He made her. He called her helper before the whole thing broke down and fell apart in the Garden. It wasn't Plan B—it wasn't: “Oh, well; now, that you've made mistakes, and I'm kicking you out of the Garden, and you're going to have to start living in a different place—now, you have to be the helper,”—it was helper from the very beginning.  If we really focus on that, and think about that, it means that I was made, as a female, to be a helper—I was built for that, I was fashioned for that, I was designed for that. It's not a second thought / it's not Plan B—it's not an afterthought. It's intuitive in who I am, as a female, to be helper in the same way that God is helper to us. Bob: You say, in the book—when you got married, you say, “I was eager to begin being my husband's helper; but beyond cooking for him and doing our laundry, I honestly had no idea what the concept / the assignment really meant.”  4:00 Barbara: Yes.  Bob: I think there are a lot of women who, when they hear the term, “helper,”—they think, “What is it if it's not cooking, cleaning, and laundry?” Barbara: Those things are a part of what each individual couple works out—who does the cooking / who does the laundry. All of that is a creative blend of the two that are in the marriage unit. And often— Bob: Who does the cooking at your house? I'm just curious— Barbara: Well, you know, right now, he does! [Laughter] Dennis: But for the past 35 years, she did! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. Bob: You've given— Dennis: So I've got—I've got a long time—[Laughter] Barbara: I delegated! [Laughter] Dennis: —I've got a long time to catch up in this deal. Barbara: Yes; yes. We have traded places on that one; but the point is—is that, oftentimes and through the centuries, most women have done those tasks in the marriage relationship. That isn't really what helper is all about. Helper is far greater than that—it's me completing my husband.  5:00 It's me—and who I am, and the way God made me, as a woman and as an individual—completing him, making him better than he is on his own or making him more complete / more fulfilled. It's me helping him, though the years, become all God intended for him to be. It's far more of a person-building / it's far more of a relationship-building concept than it is just tasks around the house, which is what we've relegated it to. Bob: The phrase I used—the paraclete—to attach yourself to him and pour life into him. Barbara: Yes. Bob: There really is something that a wife can—she can pour life into her husband; can't she? Barbara: Oh, absolutely. That's why I have written about it in this section—about the example that the Holy Spirit is to us because the Holy Spirit does give us life. I think, in ways that we, as women, don't realize—we give life to our husbands. I think the analogies between the two are great. Bob: You're not saying your role is to be the Holy Spirit to your husband. 6:00 Barbara: No. [Laughter] I am not to be the Holy Spirit, and convict him of sin, any more than he is to be Jesus Christ for me. But we model— Bob: But you can learn; yes. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: —he models and imitates what Christ did in His sacrifice—and I can model my helping and being a helper after what the Holy Spirit does for us. Dennis: Before we talk about what it means to truly be the helper, one of the things you believe strongly that it's not—is it's not being your husband's mother. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Explain what you mean by that. Barbara: I think what happens is—when we women have children and we become, not just wife, but wife and mother—there are a lot of things that we do, as mother, that are helping tasks. We're constantly helping our children get dressed, we're helping learn to tie their shoes, we help them learn to read, we help them with their homework, we help them get dressed, we help them in relationship issues when they've got friends and they've got problems in elementary school, junior high, and high school.  7:00  We are very much a helper with our children, but it's an authoritative kind of helper. I'm the one in charge, and my child is to follow me. What happens so often in marriage is—that we wives forget sometimes to switch from being helper as mother to being helper as wife—and they're very different. I'm not an authority with my husband / I'm not his teacher. For me to help him as if I am his teacher and he is to be my pupil—that's backwards / that's wrong. That's not the kind of relationship that I'm supposed to have with him as a helper. Bob: And you're supposed to be able to switch gears on the fly on that kind of a deal? Barbara: Yes, I think so; but that's where it gets tricky. [Laughter] Bob: So what does it look like if it's not the kind of helper you would be with a kindergartener or a seventh grader? How is it different? Barbara: It's different because I have a peer-relationship with my husband—we are equals. I am not a peer with my child—I'm an authority with my child. That's the fundamental difference.  8:00 For instance, Dennis and I had a conversation not too long ago. I don't know if you'll remember this—but we recently remodeled our living room. We got our couch recovered—because the kids are gone, we got it recovered in a very light color fabric, which I would have never done when we were raising kids. Now, that it's just the two of us—we can handle this. Not long after we had finished the remodeling, we had gotten the couch back from being reupholstered. We were eating, and Dennis wanted to eat in the living room. He plopped down on the couch— Bob: I know where this is going. [Laughter] Barbara: —with his plate. Bob: Yes! [Laughter] Dennis: Never happened at your place; has it Bob? Bob: It wasn't spaghetti; was it? I hope it wasn't spaghetti. Barbara: No, it wasn't spaghetti—I don't know what it was. As we sat there, I'm thinking: “This isn't going to work. This isn't what I had in mind. I don't think this is a really good place to be eating our dinner.” We began—we had a conversation; and I said, “What would you think about always eating over there at the table?” He said, “I really would like to eat and watch TV some.”  9:00 Anyway, the point is that we talked through: “Where would be an acceptable place for him to eat, in the living room, where he could watch TV—watch a football game on Saturday afternoon.” We decided the couch is not where he would eat. He would eat over there in the chair—it's on a part of the carpet that doesn't stain as easily as the part in front of the couch does. Dennis: Actually, what she encouraged me to do is run— Barbara: So are you saying you don't remember it this way? [Laughter] Dennis: —run an extension cord outside and eat it in a lawn chair in front of the TV in the yard. [Laughter] Barbara: Where there is a hose! [Laughter] Bob: You didn't put a bib on him or [Laughter] say, “You sit in this chair.” Dennis: We were just talking about being a mother; were we not? Barbara: That's right; we were! Bob: That's what—so this is an illustration of how you help your husband? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, it's an illustration of how I—yes, how I help him [Laughter] eat like an adult— Dennis: We worked it out. Barbara: We did! Dennis: We worked it out, and it is okay. I do think the point is—if you listen carefully to the illustration Barbara gave, we had a discussion. Barbara: —as peers.  10:00 I wasn't telling you that you couldn't eat on the couch—I said: “Would you be willing to eat over there?” / “Could we work out a compromise?” was the gist of the conversation. Dennis: What I'd want a man to hear in the midst of this is that he has a very important assignment—to respect his wife, and her opinion, and her values, and what she's about at that point—not just do what he wants to do. Philippians 2—we've quoted that many times, here on FamilyLife Today: “…not merely looking out for your own interests but for the interests of others.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: These little confrontations we're talking about here are a clash of values. They don't have to turn out and become where the wife ends up being the mother of the husband. Bob: You tell about, how in your marriage—when you are travelling, back in the days before cell phones— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —you used to mother your husband in the airport? Barbara: Yes. You know what's interesting about this dilemma for women is—I don't think we start out with that kind of an attitude.  11:00 I think we genuinely/sincerely want to help. It just sort of evolves into a more parental attitude without even trying. For instance, in the airport, when we used to travel before cell phones, Dennis would always want to make good use of his time. He'd walk across the area to another gate—wherever there happened to be a pay phone—and he would start making phone calls. I would sit in the waiting area and watch as every last passenger boarded the plane. They were about to close the door, and he was still on the phone. Initially, I remember thinking: “He must not know that they're boarding the plane. He must have not been paying attention.” I would get up and go over, and motion at the gate, and motion at my watch. He'd go, “I know; I know.” He'd get off the phone, and we'd get on the plane. Then the next time I would do the same thing. After a while, I started to become irritated because I thought, “I have to remind him all the time.” Dennis: How many flights have we missed? Barbara: Well, that's the point!  We never missed a flight because you were on the phone! [Laughter]  12:00 But initially, I genuinely thought he didn't know what time it was and that he didn't—he was so engaged in the phone call that he didn't realize they were boarding. I wanted to help so that we didn't miss the flight. Over time, it became more of a parental attitude on my part. Dennis: I was going to say—I was going to say that—parental. Barbara: It really was because I thought: ‘What's the deal? Why can't he get off the phone, and we can board with everybody else?” Then I started becoming critical. So my point is—is that I think what we struggle with, as wives, is not necessarily starting out with a condescending attitude or a parental attitude. We really, genuinely want to help from our hearts; but it just sort of goes downhill sometimes. Dennis: Let me take that, as an illustration though, and just ask this question: “How can a wife, in a situation like that, be a true helper?” The point here is—you're not going to answer that question in the heat of the moment. You do it some other time when you're not travelling.  13:00 The wife just simply says to her husband, “When everybody's boarding, what would you like me to do?” Barbara: Exactly—which is what I finally did. Dennis: “Would you like me to come over and let you know, or am I to just trust you with that?” At that point— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —it is two peers respecting each other—and the husband feeling like he's being trusted.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: He may—as I did—he may want her help. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Okay? That's good! You're working as teammates at that point. I think, at critical times like this—we allow these little rough spots like this to become major disagreements—at which we have a big argument and it ends up ruining the trip. Bob: As I read through this part of the book, I have to confess to you that I think one of the challenges that I think a lot of wives / a lot of women struggle with is the issue of control. Barbara: Yes; definitely.  Bob: “I want to be in control of my environment. I feel safer if I'm in control of things.” Barbara: No question; no question.  14:00 Bob: So this impulse to want to be a helper—sometimes is not, “I want to help my husband,”—it's: “I want to manage my husband— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“and control my husband because I feel more comfortable.” You're waving and saying, “Everybody else is boarding,”—not because you're trying to help him—but because you're getting nervous, and you'd like to get on the plane. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And he needs to hurry up and get on there with you. Barbara: No question. Bob: It's not helping—it's controlling.  Barbara:And that's why I'm saying it's a difficult thing because I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson is that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware—that that shift happens—and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah; I'm being his mother, not his partner.  15:00 “I need to be his friend—we're peers, we're equals, we're teammates—and we can work this out together rather than letting it become this great obstacle. Dennis: So for wives—as they look at the subject of being a helper to their husbands—here's the question I would encourage every wife to ask her husband: “Sweetheart, how can I be a better, customized helper to you?” because I really believe, Bob, if we could somehow zoom back and look at an individual marriage through God's eyes—I believe He's made the husband and the wife for one another. He made them with differences—with unique strengths, and abilities, and weaknesses—so they need each other and so they complement each other. I think many couples can live a lifetime and never ever understand how the wife— specifically: “In what areas / how can she be a customized helper for her husband?”—  16:00 —and then take good notes at what he says. Barbara: Well, and that's what I—one of the points that I really am hoping will come across in this book to my daughters—I want them to see the beauty that God has made in marriage—that the way I help my husband is different than the way Mary Ann helps you, Bob—   Bob: Yes. Barbara: —different than the way my daughters will help their husbands because my husband needs something different than you would need. That's the wonderful thing about marriage. God gave us very few rules for marriage—He gave us some guidelines to run on / some very specific things in Scripture—but He didn't give us a hundred things to do in marriage. He gave us very few. Within that wonderful definition of marriage that we get out of Scripture, there is endless ability to be creative because we are two unique people. God wants us to design a unique relationship between the two of us. 17:00 Bob: Okay; I've got two questions. The first is: “There are some wives who are hearing this and going, ‘Well shouldn't this thing work both ways? I mean, why am I the helper? Shouldn't he be the helper to me too? Aren't we supposed to help one another?'” You're talking about teammates—so you're the helper, but he's the helper too; right?  Barbara: Yes; I think Dennis should answer that, but I think the real bottom line is—is that God has called men to serve. In that serving—of the husband serving the wife—that's how he helps. He's not given the title of helper, but he's given the title of servant-leader. That's how he would help his wife. Dennis: Yes, I think Barbara mentioned the key term there—servant-leader. A husband is given the title, in Ephesians 5, “head,”—he is the authority. The buck does stop with him. He has responsibility to deny himself, to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and to be—as Barbara said—a servant-leader of her and meeting her needs. I don't think a husband—in the sense of what we're talking about a wife being a helper—is to be his wife's helper.  18:00 I think he's to be—the servant, the lover, the leader, the nourisher, the cherisher of her soul, and to look out for her best interest, and her horizons, and maximize her life—but he's got a different assignment— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —with her than she has with him.  Bob: Well, in fact, I was meeting with a group of guys recently. We were talking about this designation of servant-leader. We all kind of agreed that maybe it would be better to refer to husbands as shepherd-leaders than servant-leaders because the servant idea can—can almost make it sound like: “As long as your wife's happy, you're doing what you need to do.” That's the trap I fell in, for years—was to think, ‘As long as Mary Ann's happy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“then I'm—I'm being what God wants me to be.” It's not necessarily her momentary happiness that I should be focused on— Dennis: No, it's not. Bob: —it's the shepherding and leading of her—wisely, gently, carefully, feeding, guiding, caring for her. 19:00 Dennis: —protecting. Bob: That's right. So it was a—it was a helpful metaphor— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —to say: “A man should be a shepherd-leader and a wife should respond and should help in that process.” My other question, though, for you is for the wife who would say: “If I went to my husband and said, ‘How would you like me to be your customized helper?' he would say, ‘Get off my back and leave me alone! Just let me do what I want to do.'” Dennis: But that's not a good answer. Bob: So does she tell him that?! Barbara: Well, I think she frames the question a little differently. I think she says, in a particular situation—like, when Dennis and I were travelling, I could have said to him, “Is there anything I can do to help you so that we can get on our flight on time?” rather than some generic question that he might not be able to put words to. It'd be much better if she said, “How can I help you when we are…” or “…when this situation happens?” or “How can I encourage you when you've had a bad day at work?” If she will be specific, then she might get a more specific answer that would be easier for her to perhaps know what to do with. 20:00      Bob: But if he says, “Just leave me alone,” how does she respond to that? Barbara: I think she needs to say: “What do you mean by leave you alone? What do you want me to back off on?” I think—if she really, genuinely wants to be a better helper—then she needs to ask some follow-up questions / find out: “What does he mean by that?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think, over a lifetime together, this is a great question to interact about. In fact, we'd been married for 38 years before the thought ever occurred to me. I was talking to Barbara about her book—just to explore a little bit: “What have we learned in our marriage about how you are a great helper to me?” One of the areas she is—is she's a wise counsellor.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: She gives me the perspective that I most count on for my life, from a human perspective. Now, I go to the Bible for my guidance and to guide in prayer; but she's my closest friend—knows me well, looking out for my best interest in multiple ways.  21:00 I go to her for her advice, her counsel, and her perspective. She is a great— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —helper in that area. I think, for a man, if he can just pull back and ask—if you've been married 10 years: “How is your wife a great helper to you? How do you see her having been designed by God to help you?” Another way for Barbara is—and I told her this—she brings great beauty to my life. She's an artist—she likes design / she notices things years before I do. [Laughter] Then she points them out and I enjoy them. Because of her in my life—not only is she beautiful—but she brings beauty to my life and an appreciation for the aesthetics that God has created. Bob: She keeps the sofa looking beautiful, too, by assigning you a place to sit. [Laughter] Barbara: Now Bob, I didn't assign now— Dennis: —in the yard!  Barbara: —we agreed! 22:00 Dennis: —in the garage, with the hose! [Laughter] Bob: The thing is—this is a part of the reality of marriage that you guys have, after more than 40 years of being together—you've figured out how to make all of this work. Barbara—now for you to be speaking into the lives of younger women / younger wives—I'm really excited about the book that is now available: Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com in order to request a copy of the book, or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title is Letters to My Daughters by Barbara Rainey. Order, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us at 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, I should have you give the shout-out today to some friends of ours, Keith and Mary Kirkland, celebrating their 15th wedding anniversary today.  23:00 They live in Montgomery, Alabama—listen to WLBF. Mary is a big fan of the resources you've created for homes in the Ever Thine Home collection. They've got the Easter banner, they've got Adorenaments, they've got your “Behold the Lamb” resource—I mean, she's got a bunch of stuff in her home, and they're friends of this ministry. They've helped support the work that FamilyLife Today is doing. If it weren't for friends, like the Kirklands, FamilyLife Today couldn't do all that we do. We're listener-supported, and your donations make this ministry possible.  During this month, we are hoping that God would raise up, from among our listeners, 20 new families in every state—who would be brand-new Legacy Partners—monthly donors, supporting the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We'd like to ask you to consider being one of the families in your state helping to keep FamilyLife Today on the air in this community.  24:00 You can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, “DONATE,”—the information's available there—or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and say, “I want to become a Legacy Partner.” We hope to hear from you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow when we're going to talk about what's at the heart of being a godly woman. Priscilla Shirer is going to join us, and we'll talk about a godly woman's priorities tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Facing the Storms Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: To be the woman and the wife that God created you to be, you have to know how to walk by faith on the good days and on the dark days. Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side, “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better as a result.” I've heard so many people say that. I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, April 11th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We're going to spend time today exploring how a husband and wife can draw closer together and become one when they're walking in the valley in the path of suffering. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Anybody who has ever been to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways knows that, on Friday night, as we are getting underway, we spend some time talking about the common potholes that derail/destabilize marriage relationships. There are some things that are pretty standard / pretty common that can cause a marriage to wobble at high speeds. Dennis: And we begin the conference with a message that is really about five threats to your oneness—five threats to your marriage / five threats to your marriage going the distance over your lifetime. 2:00 Bob: One of those threats is a failure to anticipate the unexpected trials that come into a marriage. It's not a question of whether unexpected trials will come into a marriage; but “How do you respond when they do?” because all of us are going to hit them; aren't we? Dennis: Well, if you think about it—the vows are built / the traditional vows: “…in sickness and in health / in financial success and in also being poor.” I mean, the basis of what we promise, when we establish the marriage covenant, is that we're going to take the storm head-on. We don't know what it will be; but we're pledging to one another to not quit, but to keep on loving, keep on believing, and make our marriage go the distance. Bob: And we are taking some time this week to talk with your wife Barbara. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today.  Barbara: Thank you, Bob. 3:00 Bob: We're going to talk about some of those valleys and dark places that the two of you have walked together in 40-plus years of marriage and how you've not quit in the midst of that. Dennis: And what Barbara has done is—she has taken the past—almost ten—years to complete a book to wives called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife that is designed to be what it is. It's an older woman stepping into the life of a younger woman with sage advice / with seasoned advice—with the advice that comes after four decades of marriage. I love what you've done here because, honestly, there are a good number of books out there about being a wife—and there is a lot of fluff / it's kind of “How to…”—but not really tied into the reality of what women are facing today.  The way this book is constructed—you end it with this subject that Bob's talking about here—the subject of suffering.  4:00 I guess I'd have to ask you: “Is that because of what you and I have been through in 40/ almost 44 years of marriage?—because we have been through some dark valleys together.  Barbara: Well, that's why it's in there; because it has been an integral part of our marriage relationship. It's in there because I think most brides / most young women get married with some of what I call “fairy tale theology.” They get married thinking that: “Everything is going to be great for us. We're not going to have difficulties. Yes, there will be some uncomfortable moments, but we're not going to really have hard stuff. We're going to be great. We love each other, and everything's going to be great.” For those who are Christians—like you and I were when we got married—we also start our marriages out thinking: “You know, we believe in God. If we do it God's way, it's going to all be good. We're not going to have any hard things.” That was how I started our marriage—thinking: “A plus B equals C.  5:00 “If I obey God and I do these things that are in the Bible, then God, therefore, will give us an easy, nice life.” Bob: So, do you have a new equation now if it's not “A plus B equals C”? What would you say to a young wife, who says, “If it's not that, what is it?” Barbara: There's a lot of algebra! [Laughter] Bob: Some calculus—[Laughter]—a little geometry— Barbara: And I don't know algebra very well; so I can't even give you the formula! [Laughter] Dennis: And we're laughing, but it's the hard stuff of life. This is a broken world. There is a heaven, and it's not here / it's not now.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: God came, in the person of Jesus Christ, to give us an abundant life now and help us face these hardships; but it's like the funeral you and I participated in earlier this year—a dear couple that we love greatly, who buried the body of their 15-year-old son. It's unthinkable— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —the grief of losing a child!  6:00 No couple—standing at the altar, about to say their vows to each other—can even fathom the grief, the loss, the agony, the darkness of the valley. And yet, there are a lot of our listeners—who are in it right now, or who are about to go in it, or who have been in the valley and they've come out the other side—they're nodding their heads. Bob: And one of the things I've heard you say before, Barbara—is knowing that those valleys are ahead—you don't know when they're coming / you don't know where they are—it could be months / it could be years before you head into one—but the time to prepare your marriage and the time to get ready to walk through the valley is not when you find yourself in it—it's while you're still walking in the sunlight. Barbara: Yes. And I think that it also illustrates that the importance of building your marriage today because we don't know how many days we have. Our days are all numbered, but we don't know what the last number is.  7:00 That reminds us that today is the day we need to focus on. Today is the day we need to live—as if it were our last, even though that's hard to do in a practical way—but we need to focus on making our marriage all it can be today. Focus on getting to know Christ today / focus on growing today so that, when those hard times do come—and they will come—because Jesus said, “In this world, you will have trouble,”—period / done—“…you will have trouble.”  We don't like that / I never liked that verse—I always kind of wondered why it was even in there. It is because He's telling us the truth that we will have trouble and we will have difficulty. So the best way to prepare is to live each day on purpose and to live each day with focus and intentionality in your relationship. Dennis: You don't prepare for the storm in the middle of the storm.  8:00 I will never forget a Green Beret, who came up to me at one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways, way back when we started FamilyLife years and years ago. He came up and said, “Dennis, as a Green Beret, we practice what to do in a crisis over, and over, and over again in training so that, when we were in the crisis, it was second nature / we knew what to do.”  I think what people need to look at is—to look at the Bible as the training manual. We need to know how to live now in light of eternity. As a married couple, you have to know how to live together. We've been through some hard things in our family / some difficult challenges. It's true, Bob, husbands and wives do not suffer the same / they do not process grief in the same way. We're different, as male and female. I'm so glad that Barbara has this chapter in her book to coach women to know how to view suffering / how to view the valley in their marriage and not lose heart / not lose hope—but to not give up. 9:00 Bob: Sometimes in a marriage, Barbara, we are plunged into a deep valley, where it's the kind of darkness we've talked about here—burying a child or—I know, for you and Dennis—the loss of a grandchild, years ago, was one of those deep valleys.  For a lot of wives, the valley is not as deep; but it's kind of a shallow, prolonged valley. You wouldn't necessarily even call it suffering, but it's just a general discontentedness about life and where you are. It drags on you every day. If a wife is in that moment, where she's saying, “This is not what I— Barbara: —“signed up for”? Bob: “Just not what I thought life was going to be.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “It's not what I thought marriage was going to be. I thought having kids would be more fun than this.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: What does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, first of all, I want to say that that is suffering. It's just a different kind of suffering because I think that is a common experience for many, many women.  10:00 I think a lot of us go through seasons of life, whether it's because of hormones or it's because of the season that our kids are in. I remember a season like that for me, in the late teen years, before we became empty nesters. I remember being so exhausted every single day. I think there's a cumulative effect that a lot of mothers feel—it just kind of builds—so that by the time you're in your 40s or pushing 50, there's this general fatigue with life.  I think that is a kind of suffering because we do live in a broken world. That is a difficult thing to deal with because it affects everything about you—it affects your marriage, your kids that are still at home, your perception of yourself, your perception of life, your enjoyment of life. So I think that those really can be called kinds of suffering.  11:00 So the answer is--and I don't want this to sound like a pat answer because there isn't a pat answer—but I think the bottom line is: “Continuing to believe God that He is in control and that this too shall pass.” It's pulling back and looking at the big picture. I describe this as watercolor painting in my book because one of the things about creating a painting is—you come up with an initial sketch, and you've got to decide where the horizon line is, and what's going to be your focal point. Often, when you're doing a painting of any kind—and even a sculpture, although I don't do that, but I think the same principle is true with any kind of art—you have to pull back. One of the things that's important about doing a painting is—you walk six feet away and look at it / or maybe even farther—and you see the whole more clearly when you're away from it.  The same is true in our lives—we need to pull back / remind ourselves of the big picture:  12:00 “God is in control. He still loves me. He's working good in my life, even though I don't see it or feel it and I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I can trust Him.” I think the message is, “Don't quit when it gets hard.” Our temptation is to want to run away when things get hard or when things get difficult—to escape from the pressure, escape from the pain, escape from whatever it is that you're feeling as a result of the suffering. But God is saying: “No. Stay there. I'm with you. I won't abandon you. I'm going to use this for good.” Dennis: And back to the motif or the illustration of watercolors. Bob, I've watched Barbara create paintings; and it's fascinating how she shows off light. You would think that would be pretty simple; but to a non-artistic person like me, it's fascinating how you use dark colors to show off the light.  13:00 What Barbara's actually talking about here is—I think that God allows the darkness—God allows the valleys / He allows the disappointments and the unmet expectations—those things to come into our lives to create some contrast that will call us to trust Him. Because, frankly, if everything went our own way,—  Barbara: —we wouldn't need Him or we wouldn't trust Him. Dennis: —we wouldn't need God. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: And we could live our whole lives just being “happy.” Well, you know what? That isn't going to happen!  Barbara: Right.                                                                     Dennis: You're not going to be able to live “a happy life.” Bob: But I do think there are a lot of wives who—when they are not happy / they're in a prolonged season, where, “I just haven't felt happy for a while,”—they start to look around and go: “Okay, how come I'm not feeling happy? Who's the cause of this!?” [Laughter] Guess—who is the closest person there to take the blame for: “I'm not happy! It's got to be something he's doing! If he was doing his job, I'd be happy!”?  14:00 Do you think that's right? Barbara: Do I think it is right that she's thinking that? Bob: Yes. Barbara: Well, no! It's not right that she's thinking that. [Laughter] Bob: Is it accurate that she might be thinking that? Barbara: Oh, I think it's common.  Bob: Yes! But it's not right. Barbara: But it's not right; yes. [Laughter] I mean, it's very easy to blame somebody else. That's one of the hard things about marriage—is that it's so easy for both of us—husband or wife—to blame the person who's right there because they're handy, and it's really easy to find fault and say, “Well, if you only…, my life would be so much better.”  But that's not really what the reason is. The real reason is that God—because He's our Father, and He's a loving, kind, gracious Father / is so patient—and He's saying to us: “You need this right now. This will be for your good right now. I know you don't like it / I know it doesn't feel good, but I've got purposes and I've got plans for you. You will be glad in the end.” 15:00 Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side: “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better / I came to know Him better as a result. I wouldn't trade that for anything.” I've heard so many people say that, and I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Dennis: I just want to read a couple of passages, just based upon all Barbara is talking about here. If you're going through a hard time, I'd like to recommend the best-seller—the Bible—and the Book of 1 Peter, which was written to a group of people, who had been scattered and who were followers of Christ. They were called the diaspora—they were scattered saints, having to represent Christ in cultures that punished them for it. Barbara: Well, they weren't just scattered—because we tend to think of scattered as they are just living in different places—but they lost homes / possessions.  16:00 I mean, they had really experienced some difficult traumas that we face today when houses burn down or we go bankrupt and we lose everything. That puts a little more context in what these people were living in.  Bob: They were refugees—not just scattered—but refugees. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So I just want to read what God wanted to say to some folks who were going through some hard times. Just listen to how God coaches and gently nudges people who are in the valley—1 Peter, Chapter 3, verse 13: “Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”  17:00 But listen to this conclusion to this passage: “For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.”  So you hear the Scripture calling us to have the right perspective of our valley. Don't just look at it from a human perspective. Wherever you are, maybe pull out this book and read 1 Peter, Chapter 3. Then, across the page, go look at Chapter 4, verse 12 and listen to what Peter says here: “Beloved, don't be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.”  18:00 I've got to stop there because I think we, as human beings, are really odd. We think, when we get married, there's never going to be a valley. It's in the fine print of the marriage covenant—you're going to go through testing / through trials. But listen to this—verse 13 of Chapter 4: “But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” The Bible so calls us away from our temporary thinking / from how I'm feeling right now. It's calling you, not to live by feelings, but it's calling you to faith: “Are you going to believe that that's true?” As a couple, will you allow the things that are coming at you to bind your hearts to His—first of all to God's—but then, secondly, to one another and to not give up?—and as Barbara said, “…not quit and not toss the towel in.” We're talking to people, right now, who have secretly—or maybe verbally—threatened divorce to their spouse.  19:00 I mean, it is commonplace in our culture. But this is the biblical way to look at suffering, and the biblical way to run the race all the way to the finish line. Bob: Well, what I've heard both of you saying throughout this is—first of all: “Trials are coming; so be ready, and the way you get ready is by learning how to trust God in the sunshine so that, when you're in the valley, you've already learned what walking by faith looks like. You don't wait to get to the valley to learn.” Dennis: You don't wait ‘til the storm comes and it starts raining to go up on top of the roof to— Bob: —to fix the leak. Dennis: —to fix the leak. Bob: And then, the second thing is: “When you're in the valley and the circumstances are pressing, you have to pull back—step away from the painting, get the bigger picture, and counsel your own soul with what you know is true in the sunshine. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “Preach it to yourself in the shadow. That's how Jesus walks through that with you.” 20:00 So a wife who finds herself in a season of suffering—whether it's the mild malaise we talked about earlier, where it's just discouragement, or whether it's a significant period of suffering—she has to counsel her own soul and remind herself of what's true and hang onto that.  Barbara: And she needs to realize that God wants to use the hard times for the good of her marriage. It's not just for her good or her husband's good, or for the betterment of some circumstance, but God really wants to use these difficulties to help them, as a couple / a husband and a wife, grow closer together. We suffer differently / we handle things differently, but that's part of what God wants to do to help us become more one—is for me to share what I'm feeling when we're suffering, and for me to listen to Dennis share what he's feeling or, when he doesn't share what he's feeling, to trust that God is at work in his soul.  21:00 As we go through that experience together, it bonds us together more than on days when we're not struggling. Dennis: What I'd have to say to that is—I wish, at this point, I could reach through the radio—whether it's a phone, or a computer, or your car, or in your shop / wherever you're listening—and just put an arm around you and say, “Oh, we have such a shallow view of love!” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: We think love is like the movies depict it—a couple walking off in the sunset, arm in arm, with the soft breeze, and the music swelling, and people applauding. The reality is—a lot of love is learned in the valley, where two people aren't feeling the same thing / where two people aren't finding a lot of romance because there's no room in the valley, sometimes, for romance. It's where two people learn how to really love because they meet the God of love in the valley, and they begin to understand He loves them— 22:00 —that's what they're supposed to reflect to one another. Bob: I think there are a lot of wives who are really going to be helped as they get a chance to read your reflections on how God uses suffering in a marriage relationship and in a family—how God has used it in your life as you've gone through seasons of suffering. You write about this in your new book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara: Yes. Bob: We are making that book available this month to listeners who can support the ministry of FamilyLife with a donation of any amount. We are a listener-supported ministry. We depend on your donations to be able to continue the work of FamilyLife Today. If you can help with a donation this month, we'd like to send you a copy of Barbara's brand-new book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can make a donation online if you'd like. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone.  23:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Let me just say, “Thanks,” in advance for your support of this ministry. We hope you enjoy Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters.  We want to say, “Congratulations!” today to our friends, Wayne and Carrie Owen. They live in Sacramento, California. I lived in Sacramento for a while. In fact, I worked at the radio station where they listen to FamilyLife Today—at KFIA. The Owens have been married 29 years today—“Congratulations!” to them. If you have an anniversary coming up later this year, we'd like to help you celebrate. We will send you some text messages or emails just prior to your anniversary—just some little prompts for you to begin to get ready to celebrate your special day. We just need to know what your special day. So call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and let us know your anniversary date.  24:00 Or you can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date and let us know whether you'd like those messages sent to you by email or by text message.  Now, tomorrow, we want to spend time talking about how fear can affect a family. We especially want to look at blended or stepfamilies. We're going to hear from Ron Deal tomorrow with thoughts on the subject of fear. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch—special help today from Mark Ramey. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Building up Your Man Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: See if you can spot where the challenge is here: You're a wife and a mom who wants things to go right. Marriage and family is messy, and your husband isn't perfect. You see how that can be a problem? Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: One of the things that is true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us because of our emotional makeup to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman, who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point where she just doesn't see clearly.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 27th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What do you do, as a wife, when you get overwhelmed / discouraged by all that's going on? How do you deal with that? We're going to talk about it today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We're diving back into a rich field of ore today. I mean, there is some good stuff that we're going to be digging into. Dennis: We have some pretty fair guests on FamilyLife Today from time to time. Bob: We do; yes. Dennis: Max Lucado, Tony Evans, Crawford Loritts, Mary Kassian, Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth—a lot of, really, pretty fair country guests. Bob: Pretty good communicators with some pretty good biblical knowledge. Dennis: Yes; this one is a cut above. Bob: Somebody who is— Dennis: —just a cut above. Bob: —kind of your favorite? Dennis: Definitely my favorite—my bride of 43 years.  2:00 Sweetheart, welcome back. Barbara: I don't know if I can live up to all of that. Dennis: That's pretty strong; wasn't it? Barbara: Very strong. Dennis: Well, our listeners love you. We were with some friends here this past weekend and ran into a number of listeners. They came up and talked to Barbara about her books and Ever Thine Home®—all the resources she's creating for wives, and moms, and women to be able to display their faith in their homes. It was kind of fun to watch them come out of the woodwork—out of a large gathering of people—come by and say, “Hi,” to Barbara and say, “I appreciate you.” Bob: Well, and a lot of buzz around your new book, which has just been out now for a few months. It's called Letters to My Daughters. This really didn't start as a book; did it? Barbara: It absolutely didn't. When our oldest son was engaged to be married, his fiancée came to me and said, “You know, I would really love to hear some encouragement from you about being a wife.” And I thought, “Wow!” Bob: She just opened the door; didn't she? 3:00 Barbara: I know. And I thought: “Wow. She opened the door. Then I'm going to gently and cautiously walk through that door.” And so I wasn't sure exactly how to go about doing it because we all lived in different places. It wasn't possible to take her out for coffee and have a conversation. So I decided I would start writing some letters—just to share some of the lessons that I had learned over the years in being a wife / just by way of encouragement and, “Here are some things that I learned, and maybe this will help you.”  Bob: Did you write them one-on-one to her or did you copy everybody else when you started? Barbara: I copied all three married girls. So our oldest, Ashley, who was already married, and then our son, Samuel, had married the same summer. So it went to three married girls. Bob: Then you expanded it out as this snowballed and continued? Barbara: We traded about—I sent—I'll rephrase that—I sent about a dozen emails total. I don't know how much of it was that they didn't know me that well—so there wasn't a lot of response—  4:00 —which I understood—I mean, you know—we're talking about subjects about marriage and this is your mother-in-law. What do you say? Bob: Yes. Barbara: So I didn't get much feedback—so they kind of dried up. Then, when our daughter Rebecca got married in 2005, I went and dug them all up and sent them to her kind of as a batch / a couple of them at a time. And that really was the end of it after that—the email version. Dennis: I think what's interesting about this is the whole idea came from a couple of sources. One was a book that was famous and very popular, back when Barbara and I were college students, by Charlie Shed. It's called Letters to Karen. It wasn't Letters to My Daughter, it was—although, was Karen his daughter? Barbara: Karen was his daughter. Bob: Because I also got Letters to Phillip, which was the follow-up, which he'd written letters to his son—both of them around marriage subjects, right? Dennis: Exactly; exactly.  5:00 But there was another kind of—I don't know—birthplace of this idea of sending letters that was a part of Barbara's family. Barbara: When I was growing up, I remember my mother used to anxiously look for this large legal-size envelope that would come in the mail probably every couple of months. She had married my dad and they had moved two or three states away from where she grew up. It was a place where she knew no one. Although she developed friends, there were no family members anywhere near. She, and her mother, and some other relatives in the family, and friends had this exchange of letters, that were all handwritten, that went by the postal service. It was called a round robin.  My mother would write her letter, put it in the envelope, and send it on its way, where the next person would read my mother's letter and all of the other letters that were in it. She would take out her original letter, and put in a new letter, and send the packet on its way.  6:00 It would just make this circle between these six or eight women that were a part of this group because nobody got on the phone and talked for fun in those days. You only used the phone for emergencies, or business, or important things. You didn't just get on it to chat. Letter writing was the only way that you really kept up with people who lived far away. They had this letter exchange that they passed around.  I just remember, very vividly, that every time that letter came / that packet—with all those messages from home / touches with her family and friends that she didn't get to see very often—she would get a cup of coffee and sit down. She relished those letters—she read them and absorbed all that she could out of those communications from friends that she loved, and cared about, and missed deeply. That became a way for her to stay in touch with those friends. Dennis: You know, it's interesting, Bob—now, in the present age of social media and having communication so— 7:00 Bob: —tweets, and texts, and emails. Dennis: —it's so easy, you know. We have access to so much that the art of letter writing—I mean, a really good thoughtful letter—in fact, I have back on my desk a letter that was given to me by Steve Green, who is the President and CEO of Hobby Lobby, that he'd obtained that was written by Thomas Jefferson, during his presidency. It's just interesting to have a copy of a letter that's over 200 years old and to think about the words being crafted—how thoughtful it was. I think there's a need to recapture that—both personal side but also just the thoughtful side / the contemplative side of: “You're facing some issues, let me step into your life and provide some guidance in a personal way for you.” Bob: Not just shoot from the hip, but give some real thought to the response. Some of the letters—because you will print a letter in here—we should say this is not an actual letter from one of your daughters. People shouldn't read this and try to figure out which daughter was asking this question. 8:00 Barbara: Correct. Bob: You would take a composite of questions that were being asked of you—subjects that your daughters were asking you about. Dennis: —and people who were coming up to Barbara at a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway.  Bob: Right. Dennis: We have tens of thousands of people, who come to those events. When Barbara speaks, women stand in line to talk to her. These questions that are in the book are really questions that these women had asked Barbara from the Weekend to Remember. Bob: I'm looking at one of the letters that you respond to in your book. You're tackling some pretty interesting stuff here. I mean, one of these letters asks this question—it says: “Hey, Mom, sometimes I get tired of being discouraged by all the unexpected things that I have to deal with that come from the way my husband lives life. It's not just that we're different—you already wrote me about—that it's more than that. It's like I think, ‘If I didn't have him, sometimes life would be easier.'”  9:00 Now wait a sec! Do wives really feel that way? [Laughter] I mean, I'm starting to feel a little insecure here! Does a wife really feel like sometimes life would be easier— Dennis: Let me just stop you. What if your wife's name is on the book—[Laughter] Bob: You can feel real insecure now! [Laughter] Dennis: —and you're on the radio! Bob: Let me finish this—it says, “It's kind of nice when he's out of town for a few days.” This is a wife, who is saying, “Sometimes, I wonder if I'd be happier, more satisfied, more fulfilled if I didn't have a husband to deal with.” Barbara: Well, I think there are those moments when women do feel that way because the differences never go away—that's the first chapter in the book. I write in the book that it's the first and most lasting adjustment to marriage because the differences never go away. Even though I'm used to things that he brings to our world—his personality, the way he approaches life, and his maleness— 10:00 Bob: His perspective is different. Barbara: —it's very different. I think what this question is saying is—that, sometimes, when a husband travels, there feels a little bit of a: “Oh I can do things the way I want to do things. I don't have to be just thinking about what I would like to do and ‘How's this going to make him feel? How he's going to respond to this?' I can just do what I want to do.”  Bob: You know, I get that because I think, for husbands—I think there's a similar— Barbara: I would expect so! Bob: —to have a break and just to be able to—times when I'm traveling, I'm focused on whatever I'm doing, traveling-wise, and— Barbara: Or if your wife goes on a women's retreat, you can just kind of veg and eat pizza all day long and not worry about anything; right? Bob: Sometimes, those breaks are nice to have; but you wouldn't want them to go on for very long. Barbara: No; no. Bob: In the midst of them, you do have a sense of something lacking, even if you're enjoying just the pause in the relationship; right? Barbara: Right. Without question because we are complete in one another, and marriage does complete that which is lacking.  11:00 I mean, God says, “The two shall become one.” There is a sense in which you can relax about some things when your husband or your wife is out of town, but there is that realization that life isn't the same without him in it. So it makes you miss one another and appreciate those differences / those things that the other person brings that are so very contradictory at times. But it is for good. Bob: When should a wife start to be concerned if she's thinking, “I kind of wish he'd go away for a few days because I really like it when he's gone.” When can she tell: “This is an okay break,” versus “No, this is us drifting toward isolation in our marriage”? Dennis: —or “This is unhealthy thinking.” Here's what we're talking about—we're talking about the very essence of marriage goes back to Genesis, where it says it was not good that man be alone.  12:00 So it says, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother; shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one.” I think we get married because there's something lacking in our lives and that something is a person. It's the completeness of a husband and a wife in a marriage relationship designed by God.  The two are asked to deny themselves, and to defeat isolation, and not grow into an unhealthy relationship where you long for the times when you're going to be separated. You need to keep the relationship alive and not forget why you married the other person in the first place. God brought you together—you need to get on with it, and you need to learn how to embrace the differences. Barbara: It's okay to have a break occasionally; but the goal of marriage is being together, and becoming one, and allowing God to do his redemptive work in our lives. Dennis: Ultimately, what marriage is all about is—about two imperfect people learning how to love one another within the commitment of marriage.  13:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: You're going to school, with God teaching you from the Bible. I'd have to say I didn't understand that when I enrolled in this course called marriage. But looking back over four decades of marriage, I'd have to say I know more about love because of marriage than any other relationship in my life. Bob: Some of the wives, who are listening to us have this conversation, are thinking: “The negatives that you're talking about with my husband—some of these are pretty dark negatives. Some of these are negatives that cast such a shadow over the relationship that it's hard for me just to hold things together. How do I turn that into a positive? Or what do I do with those negatives? How do I deal with a husband who—man! the negatives—they're stark, and they're real, and it's really challenging?” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I'm not married to Dennis,”—[Laughter]—  14:00 —you know, a wife, who's listening, is saying: “I'm not married to Dennis, who's a godly virtuous man, who is pursuing a walk with the Lord. I'm married to a guy who's marginally interested in spiritual things, and who's yelling at the kids, and who's drinking too much. What do I do?” Barbara: That's a very complex question because there are so many levels and degrees of what constitute negatives and difficult things in a relationship. So let me answer it two ways. One is: “Any wife has to start by looking at herself and saying: ‘Okay; God, am I accepting the man that You've put in my life? Am I giving thanks for him in his strengths and his weaknesses? Am I looking to You to do the transforming work?'” because you even said in your question / a woman says: “What can I do? How do I relate to him and help transform him?”  Well, it's not the wife's job. I think we so easily get caught up in thinking that it's our responsibility to fix him / to change him.  15:00 We do that with our kids—we're always helping our kids. We talked about that on another broadcast that helping a husband is different than helping your kids. But it starts by her attitude and her perspective, and her belief in God and His sovereignty, and His ability to work. It starts with where she's focusing her eyes—is she looking at all of the negative in his life to such a degree that she's totally forgotten all the good that there is? My first challenge is to her: “Are you open to God being at work? Have you totally given up on Him? Are you giving thanks for your relationship the way it is?”  And then the other side is: “If it really is indeed very, very difficult things that are beyond a woman's responsibility to deal with, you may need to see a counselor, you may need to get a pastor or someone who's wise and skilled to intervene—to help you, to coach you, to guide you. Find an older woman who can be your mentor to help give you perspective.  16:00 One of the things that's true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us, because of our emotional makeup, to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman—who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point that she just doesn't see clearly.  That's why a mentor is so helpful—someone who can look at it objectively and say: “You know, it's probably not as bad as you think it is. Let me give you one or two things that you can try—one or two practical suggestions that might make a difference for you,” because we do lose perspective and we do—we just get all out of sorts. It's very common for us, as women, to get discouraged with our marriages because we're just discouraged about life in general.  So check your heart.  17:00 Find someone to help you / find a mentor—find another woman who can speak objectively into your life and say, “It may not be as bad as you think it is, and here are some things you can try.”  Dennis: What I'd say to my daughters is—I'd say: “Do you remember when you'd get up in the morning and see your mom reading the Bible? What was that symbolic of? It was that your mom was teachable, that she was trying to meet with God, and ultimately that her hope was in God.”  So the woman, who's listening to us right now, who has lost hope—she's got to have a spiritual thermometer check: “How's your relationship with God?” You've got to be reminded of who He is, how He operates in this imperfect world that we live in, and what he's calling us to do, which is live and walk by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. Barbara: I just want to say to the moms, who are listening, who've got a houseful of kids—or even maybe one or two kids, but it feels like a full house to you—I did not get up every morning and read my Bible.  18:00 My kids didn't see me doing that every day. I just don't want anyone listening to think that I was that woman that got up every morning and read my Bible. There were weeks that I would go by and not read my Bible in the morning. I would talk to God, and I would pray, and I would try to catch snippets of the Bible here and there in different places; but I was pretty overwhelmed and pretty buried with kids and with life.  Yes, I totally agree with what you just said, Dennis, that it is absolutely crucial that your hope is in God and no place else. Your hope can't be in your husband because he will fail, that's a given. Put your hope in God, and keep it there, and do all that you can to maintain that. I just don't want anybody to feel like there's this standard of: “I have to get up and read my Bible every morning before my kids are up.” If you can do that, great! I couldn't do that, and I failed miserably many times; but my hope remained in Christ for the most part. 19:00 Dennis: There is a Proverb that I was thinking about as I was thinking about our listeners today, who are going to hear Barbara on this subject—it is Proverbs, Chapter 4, verse 23—we quote it quite frequently, here on FamilyLife Today—it says, “Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life.” You may not be able to get in the Bible every day—I'm glad you said that, just to remove this mythical phantom that exists of the super spiritual mom, but your heart needs to know whom it is that you serve / who is your hope—and you need to cultivate that.  I'm glad you mentioned a mentor, or a friend, or even a counselor if things really go south—or to keep them from going south—someone that you can lean into and you can spill out your emotions in safety and talk about it— 20:00 —not just being negative but try to find someone who can coach you out of the ditch that you may be in. That's what church is all about / that's what the community of faith—of Christ followers ought to be about. We ought to be meeting each other in our ditches and saying: “You know what? It's safe. We're all broken. There is nobody who's got it all together!” But to maybe dig in with a group of women into a book like this, Bob, and decide: “We're going to get real with each other. We're going to get honest, and we're going to make sure our hope is in the right place.” Bob: I was going to say—at one level, that's what this book is all about. It is a mentoring book. It is an older woman mentoring younger women on what it means to be a wife according to God's design. Dennis: I would just like to say here—and I know I'm biased—so the listeners—they already know that / they've already heard me talk about Barbara in the past—I'm biased toward her. This is not a fluffy, feel-good book.  21:00 This is a real-life book that talks about where you are living, as a woman, wife, mom, grandmother. I think it is life-giving—it's the words of a wise woman that are bringing life to others because she's reminding people of the truth. People today need to get away from the culture, and the messages of the culture, and the messages of all their buddies on Facebook® or Twitter®, and they need to dig in deep with someone who'll tell them the real truth and nothing but the truth.  Bob: If it was just you and this book alone, that would be good for your soul; but if it could be you and three or four other women and this book together, I think that just adds a dimension to where there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors / there's life-on-life happening. There's a support that can happen there. Dennis: Yes. 22:00 Bob: I'd encourage women to get together with three or four other women and get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We have a downloadable discussion guide that is available so that you and your friends can go through this book together, and then, there are questions you can ask. Again, you can find out more when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Order the book from us, online, at FamilLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you'd like to order a copy of Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's the new book by Barbara Rainey. Now, we have an anniversary we want to acknowledge today—Rick and Jill Bridges from Whittier, California, celebrating six years of marriage together. “Congratulations!” to the Bridges on their sixth anniversary. FamilyLife is celebrating an anniversary this year as well—it is 40 years of ministry for us / we started back in 1976.  23:00 Our whole goal with this ministry is to help more couples have more anniversaries. We want to provide you with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family so that you have more years together—more years where you are thriving, as a couple and as a family. We want to effectively develop families, who are anchored firmly in God's Word. We appreciate those of you who partner with us in this effort. FamilyLife Today could not exist if it weren't for friends, like you, who help support this ministry with your donations. Thank you for the part you play in helping to make FamilyLife Today possible.  By the way, if you'd like a copy of Barbara Rainey's new book, we are making that available to anyone who makes a donation today. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com make an online donation and get a copy of the book. Or request the book when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation. Or you can mail your donation to us, along with your request for Barbara's book.  24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.  We want to talk more tomorrow about how a wife can stay positive and stay focused on affirming her husband, even when things aren't going well / even when he's not doing a great job. We're going to talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Praising the Positive Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: Barbara Rainey has some advice for wives. She says, when you're husband messes up—and, by the way, he will—when it happens, how you respond may determine whether he learns anything from his mistake or not.  Barbara: If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area where he just blew it royally. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, April 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. The words you say have profound power in your marriage relationship. We'll examine that subject with Barbara Rainey today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Have you ever stopped to just ponder who you would be: (A) if you had been single all your life or (B) if you'd married somebody other than Barbara? Dennis: Yes; I guess I have because I tried to marry a young lady from SMU before Barbara and I started dating.  Bob: You proposed? Dennis: She didn't want to marry me. No, no. It wasn't at that point. Bob: It was clear enough that you didn't—  Dennis: But there was a DTR—a “define the relationship.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: How she defined it and how I defined it—[Laughter]—“Thumbs down, baby!” Bob: Okay. Dennis: “Thumbs down!! You're out of here!” [Laughter]  2:00 It was good because—it was okay because I wasn't in search of a myth. I wanted a real relationship with a real person.  Back to the previous part of the question, though, Bob: “Have I ever thought about who I would be if I hadn't married Barbara and was single?” I have. I don't visit that picture very often because that's a horror film. [Laughter] Bob: Pretty ugly; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: She's laughing really hard because she knows what happened behind the curtain. [Laughter] Bob: Are you saying, “Amen,” to that? Is that what— Barbara: No, I just think that's funny that he said it would be a horror film because I don't think it would be that bad. Dennis: Well, I don't know what you would compare marriage to—that teaches you how to love, that instructs you in how to sacrifice for another person, to care for, to cherish, to nourish, and to call you away from yourself and force—  3:00 —I mean, if you're going to do marriage God's way, it is the greatest discipleship tool that has ever been created in the history of the universe. It demands that both a husband and a wife pick up their cross, follow Christ, deny themselves, and ask God, “Okay, God, what do You want me to do in this set of circumstances?” Bob: And that's true. It works both ways—for husbands and wives—but our focus this week is on the responsibility a wife has—the privilege she has / the assignment she has—from God to be the helper that He's created her to be.  Barbara, we're talking about some of the themes that are found in your book, Letters to My Daughters, which is just out. We're getting a lot of great feedback from women who have gotten copies of this book and started reading it.  Some women recoil at the idea that they're called to be helpers—it sounds demeaning to them. Your book affirms that it's a noble thing that God is calling wives to.  4:00 Barbara: It is a very noble assignment that God has given us. It's equally noble, I think, to the calling that God has put on a man's life too. What makes it even better is that, together, marriage is a high and holy calling—it says that in Scripture. It also says that it's a mystery. I think that's the part that we wish God hadn't said about it because it would be nice if it was a little bit more black and white / more obvious. But God says it is a mystery. God is an artist / God is an author—God didn't make robots. So figuring this out—this uniqueness / this relationship that Dennis and I have that's unlike anybody else's relationship on the planet—just as your marriage with Mary Ann is unlike anybody else's on the planet—the ingenuity of God to create these little duos all over the planet that represent Him / that are a picture of Christ and the Church—all of that mystery is profound and baffling.  5:00 We wish sometimes that marriage was a whole lot easier, but it illustrates that marriage is a very high and noble calling. We think it is drudgery / we think it's dispensable—and it's not. Dennis: Yes. In the book that Barbara has written, called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, you quote Mike Mason. Speaking of mysteries, he wrote a book called The Mystery of Marriage. This comes from that book—he says this: “Love convinces a couple that they are the greatest romance that has ever been, that no two people have ever loved as they do, and that they will sacrifice absolutely anything in order to be together.” Then I love the conclusion to the statement. It says, “Then marriage asks them to prove it.” Well, that's what's at stake. You've got this noble relationship that wasn't created by man—it was created by Almighty God.  6:00 His image is stamped all over a marriage that seeks to follow His blueprints for what He wants us to do. He's trying to teach us how to love—how to love sacrificially / how to give up our lives on behalf of another. You're never going to be able to do it if you try to have it your way.  Bob: I would love for you to expand on something that I just had to stop and ponder for a second. You said what a wife believes about her husband is the starting place for everything she says or doesn't say about her husband.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: And what you believe about Dennis is the starting place for everything you say or don't say about him. Barbara: Correct. Bob: Unpack that for me. Barbara: Well, let me explain something about photography that I think will help answer your question for you. Anybody, who has ever used a 35mm camera that has a lens that you turn so you can focus, understands the principle that the person who is holding the camera chooses what's going to be in that image.  7:00 You can choose a broad panorama and you can get as much in that frame as you can get, or you may choose to tighten that zoom lens and focus on somebody's eyes only. You've got great choice, as the photographer, in what you're going to get in that lens of the camera. And the same is true in marriage. I have complete control over what people know about my husband. If I'm talking about Dennis and I talk about his faults, or I talk about how crummy it is that he just doesn't ever do this and I think it's terrible that he doesn't ever do that, anybody who hears that description that I just made of him will think of him that way. When they think of him, they're going to remember that. But, on the other hand, if I choose to leave that out of the description, and instead, I choose to describe him for my friends, or my small group, or wherever I am talking about him, and I say: “You know, one of the things that I appreciate about Dennis is that he really makes our family a priority.  8:00 “Yes, he travels. Yes; sometimes he has to say late and work / sometimes he is gone on the weekends, but I know that his heart is to make our family a priority.” That's focusing the lens of my camera on what is good and what is right about my husband. If he knows that I'm saying that about him, he's going to want to live up to that expectation. Bob: So some wives will hear you say that and say: “You want me to airbrush my husband. You want me to just brush away and pretend like all those flaws that are there just don't exist and just pretend like he's better than he is.” Barbara: Okay. And I would say to her: “How does God see you? Is God pointing out to you the hundreds of things that you do wrong every day? Um, I don't think so. He's very gentle and very gracious, and He shows us one thing at a time that we do wrong.” 9:00 I just think: “Okay, you want to call it airbrushing? Alright, I'll take that—it may be airbrushing—but I would rather focus on what he does right than what he does wrong because—when I focus on what he does wrong, and I have done that—all I can see are the things he does wrong. They grow and they just become these huge things. I become obsessed with everything that's wrong and everything he's not doing that's right. And that's not fun! I don't like that about me!  “I don't want him to be focusing on all my weaknesses and all my flaws. I don't want him talking about my weaknesses and flaws to other people because I don't like them / I don't want to be known for what is wrong with me. I want to be known for what I do well and what I do right. So the same is true for him. So, yes, I airbrush it—I don't talk about the things that he does wrong, or his weaknesses, or his flaws. That's for him to deal with before the Lord. That's not my business—that's his business.” Bob: You're not living in denial about those things? Barbara: No; no. 10:00 Dennis: That doesn't mean that the airbrush doesn't get turned off at a point.  Bob: And the flaws are exposed? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, or that I talk about them with him from time to time. Dennis: Yes. Bob: And you're not being unrealistic about the nature of your relationship. Barbara: No. Bob: But I think what I hear you saying—and this goes back to where we started—what a wife says about her husband is going to begin with what she's thinking about her husband. Barbara: Correct. Bob: And she can choose— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —whether to dwell on all of his flaws or whether to set her mind on those things that are his virtues. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And every husband's got at least a couple of them; right? Barbara: Well, if he doesn't, why did you marry him? I mean, all of us got married because we admired something about this man that we fell in love with. So focus on those things. I remember, years and years ago, when we were in a new church that we were a part of—it was a fairly small church—and we had this community group of other couples that we met together every couple of weeks.  11:00 I remember standing in a small group of maybe three or four of us. This wife started talking about her husband—she was talking negatively about her husband. I'll never forget that uncomfortable feeling that all of us in that little, tiny circle felt. We just felt kind of: “Ouch! Oooh! That hurts! I don't know that I want to hear that about your husband.”  And then, out of the corner of my eye, I saw him, standing not that far away. I think he had heard what she said. I have just never forgotten that picture, even though it was probably 30 years ago / maybe 20 years ago—but it was a long time ago—because I saw what the power of her words did. I saw what it did to me—it made me, as a listener, uncomfortable. It made me wonder about him, as a man. And then, when I saw that he heard, it was like an ice pick to his heart. I realized how powerful our words are as wives. 12:00 So my whole intention in what I share in this chapter about this is to help women understand that your words are very, very significant. Those who hear them are going to be influenced by what we say. Dennis: There's a proverb that is so applicable here—Proverbs 18:21: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So you literally have the opportunity to use your tongue like a paint brush to paint a positive picture, or like an ice pick to tear another person down. To the woman, who is listening to us—or for that matter, a man, who may be listening in right now—if you're a critical person / if you're negative, you need to ask God to do a work in your soul.  13:00 You know, no one wants to be in the corner of an attic with a cranky woman or a cranky man, who is bitter, and negative, and all they can do is find fault. That's not who you want to grow old with. What you need to ask—you need to ask God to do a work in your soul and to help release you from being critical of your husband or your wife and find a way to begin to focus on—as Barbara is calling women to do here—to focus on that which is positive in their spouse / why you married them in the first place and what you like about them. Brag on your wife / brag on your husband in front of the kids. Bob: One of the things Dennis has shared over the years—you've heard him say it—your belief in him has been massive in terms of his confidence in doing what God's called him to do. I'm just wondering: “Was that just natural to express belief in him? Was that just something that came instinctively to you; or were you conscious and deliberate about saying: ‘I need to verbalize to him. I need to express confidence in him'?” 14:00 Barbara: The answer is, “Yes,” to both because I think most of us women, when we first get married, we marry this guy because we believe in him—we think he's the greatest. Most women marry with those thoughts, those feelings, and those emotions. I think that what happens is—when we do get disillusioned, and we do find discouragements, and we butt heads because we're different—that belief can come down with it. Then, that's when it becomes a choice. In the beginning, it was really easy for me to believe in him because I just did believe in him—that's why I married him. But then there come those times, farther into the relationship, when belief becomes a choice. So rather than expressing—and it's not that I don't express fear / it's not that I don't express anxiety because I express plenty of that—but the bottom line is: “In the end, no matter what, I believe in you. I believe that God is at work in your life and in our marriage. I believe that God is going to see us through this, and I'm going to be with you there to the bitter end.” 15:00 Dennis: And what I'd want a woman to know is—that no matter how competent and confident a man looks, whether he's young or whether he's older / it does not matter—there isn't a man, within the reach of my voice right now over the radio across the country, who doesn't need his wife's steady and certain words of affirmation and belief. He needs it. I don't care if he says nothing to you when you say it. The words are sinking and soaking into his soul because there are not that many people in a lifetime—in fact, I'd ask the question, “Is there anyone who goes a lifetime with you and who believes in you all the way to the end?” The answer is, “Who would it be?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: “Who's going to do that?” That's the nature of marriage!  16:00 When you say, “I take you ‘til death do us part, for better or for worse, in riches and in being poor,”—wow! It's the pay-off! Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not always easy. We're not trying to paint some kind of rosy picture here, but it is a necessity. Bob: There has to have been a time—and I don't know if it will come to mind immediately for you or not—but a time when you were facing a decision and you were thinking, “I think we should do this.” And Dennis was thinking, “No, I think we should do this.” And you said: “Okay, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to follow you”; and it turned out that it would have been better off if you'd have done it your way. I'm just wondering—for a wife in that situation, where she says, “I think this is the right thing to do,” and the husband says, “We're going this way,” and they go down a dead-end and the wife finds herself, in that moment, thinking, “If he'd have just listened to me, we'd be in a lot better shape right now than we are!”—  17:00 —what does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, I can't think of a specific time; but there have been times like, for instance, driving in the car, when he would choose to go one way and I was thinking, “I don't think that's the right way!” And, sure enough, it wasn't. That hasn't happened very often, but it has happened. I remember one time, early in our marriage, when we were discussing a financial decision. I don't remember thinking it was a bad decision at the time; but it was a bad decision, and it cost us financially.  Regardless, it doesn't really matter—if it's a big thing or a small thing—because the choice is still the same in the end for a wife; that is: “Even when he makes bad decisions—and he will / when he decides to do things that will cost you—and he will—will you still believe in him? Will you still trust God? Will you put your faith in God's sovereignty that God can turn this into good in his life?”  18:00 Maybe that's exactly what he needed to experience to grow in the way God wanted him to grow. If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area, where he just blew it royally, because men are going to make big mistakes. It's how we respond to that mistake that will make the difference in whether he benefits from it or he can't benefit from it because he's been beat up by his wife. Dennis: This is not an easy message for a lot of listeners to hear, but I just want you to comment on why you decided to write a book that is called Letters to My Daughters to call them to the art / the biblical art of being a wife because you're calling them to a high standard. 19:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: These are our daughters and our daughters-in-law.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Why did you want to do that? Barbara: Well, I think our culture has lost the vision for what marriage can be—what it was intended to be. Yes, we have all seen countless examples of marriage done the wrong way, but that doesn't mean marriage is broken. It means the people are broken who are in it. I want the next generation to understand that marriage is really worth working on—it is transformative, it is redemptive, it is holy. There are so many good things about marriage; but we don't see those good things, commonly, in our culture—we see all the negatives. I tell the story of: “What would it be like if you went to the Louvre Museum in Paris, with all these magnificent art works? And what if, while you were standing in line to get your ticket, there was an earthquake?  20:00 “And after you got your ticket, you walked in and half of these masterpieces were lying on the floor. There were still half of them on the wall / there were still statues and all of these magnificent things around—what would your eyes be drawn to? Your eyes would be drawn to the tragedy, to the loss, to the broken pieces lying all over the floor.”  I think that's a picture of our culture. We see all of these wrecked marriages—we see these abused women, we see these lost men, we see the damaged children—and we just think: “Marriage is hopeless. Why should I even try?” What I want to do in this book is say: “Look at what's on the wall! Look at what God has said. Look at what God has designed. That is our goal. Don't get distracted by the broken pieces. It's tragic, it's wrong, it's sad; but the institution of marriage is still worthy. It's still worth striving for.  21:00 God didn't make a mistake when He made marriage. We're the ones who are messing it up. Dennis: And Bob, I think about what FamilyLife is talking about all this year in our 40th anniversary of doing ministry—calling people back to their anniversary and back to their commitment—around the whole concept of the Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. What Barbara is challenging people with is—just because people have failed, don't give up on what the Bible—the transcendent beauty and model of the Scriptures and what it's calling us to be, as human beings—to call us away from our selfishness, to call us to the biblical model of following Jesus Christ, and training our kids to do the same.  I'm going to tell you something—there's a lot on the line in every marriage that is listening to us right now. Generations are on the line— 22:00 —your children! The best picture that they'll ever see, apart from the Scriptures, of what a real marriage ought to be is your marriage.  Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Even in its imperfections, it can display what Barbara is talking about—the nobility / the grandeur. Your kids will see something—that they are going to say: “You know what? Mom and Dad could have ended it, but they didn't! They experienced the redemption of Jesus Christ. I want what they've got! When I get married, I want one of those! And I'm not going to settle for anything less.” The way they get it is by absorbing your teaching about Jesus Christ, following Him, and deciding to make their parents' faith their own. But that means the parents need to have it first. Bob: Well, and I would say that part of the way they get it, too, is by aligning themselves with God's design for us—as men and women / as husbands and wives—the unique assignment God has for us.  23:00 It's one of the issues you're addressing, Barbara, as you talk to young wives about what it means for them to be godly wives. I'd just encourage our listeners—get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. This is a book that we're making available this month to folks who make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com—make an online donation. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make a donation over the phone; or you can mail a donation to us and request a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're happy to send it out to you as a “Thank you,” for your support of the ministry of FamilyLife. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for folks, like you, helping to support this ministry. So “Thanks,” in advance, for whatever gift you're able to help with. We're happy to send you Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us—again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear Barbara and a number of other women interacting in a panel conversation that took place a few years ago with a large crowd of women. You were talking about God's design for you, as a woman, as a wife, and as a mom. We'll hear that dialogue tomorrow. I hope our listeners can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Keys to a Healthy Marriage Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Barbara Rainey likens intimacy in marriage to a secret garden—a place that only a husband and wife go together. She says it's a risky place.Barbara: It is a place of raw exposure. It is a place of being real with one another. It is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship, so we need the walls of a commitment. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place.Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 6th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today about how a husband and wife can work together to cultivate the secret garden of their marriage. Stay with us.1:00And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. It's been almost a year now since the release of your wife's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're finally getting around to Chapter 6— Dennis: You've got— Barbara: —which rhymes with—[Laughter] Dennis: —you've got a cheesy grin on your face. Bob: You—you know, Chapter— Dennis: The listeners can't see your face! [Laughter] Bob: —six!—six. If you replace one letter in “six,” you get an idea of what we're going to be talking about— Dennis: Well— Bob: —today. Dennis: Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, has flown off the shelf. It's really doing well. I understand why, because I think this is Barbara's best book ever. It is certainly a very honest look at our marriage. I want to welcome her back to the broadcast. Thanks for coming back in, Sweetheart. Barbara: I'm happy to be here. Dennis: I know you are. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I know you are. Since we're going to talk about s—s—s— Bob: Sex. Just say it—sex. Dennis: Chapter 6. Barbara: It is not that hard for you to say! [Laughter] 2:00 Bob: You've heard him say it before?  Barbara: I don't think it's that hard for him to say! [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to pray for our audience; because as I was preparing to come in here, reading Barbara's book, I thought: “You know? Oh my! How broken are we as human beings—how many different perspectives we come at this subject.” There are some listeners who've been hurt deeply by their past choices and some are in present relationships. I just want God to intervene and minister to—whether they're single, married, divorced, single parents—I just want to ask God to meet every person where they are:  Father, You made us, male and female. There is no surprise in terms of how we function. You made us to merge together and become one.  3:00 Yet, what You designed, man has degenerated and has twisted. You know that as well.  You know where each listener is, who is tuning in to our broadcast today. I just would ask You to be gentle with each of them. Use these broadcasts, I pray, to minister to them just where they are. Produce some hope, some help, and some encouragement to each person listening. For the guys, who are listening in, Father, I pray that they might listen with some understanding. We tend to be too quick to judgment on this subject. I pray for all of us just to be wise in terms of what we hear and what we apply. In Christ's name I pray. Amen. Bob: Amen. Barbara this is a subject that obviously is personal—it's intimate—it really does get to the core of who we are as human beings. It can be threatening for a lot of people.  4:00 I was very interested—as you invited your daughters and daughters-in-law to ask questions about marriage, the first question you got related to this—I'm just going to read it from the book——it says: “So yeah. Sex. You gave me “the talk,” and we had our pre-wedding conversation that was pretty short and hurried. No offense; it was busy. I get it. But now I'm married. And it's um…different. Fine. FINE. But, well, I have to ask this…what's the big deal?” I thought that was an interesting question from a daughter to say, “I'm in the midst of it, but I'm not sure I understand why it's as big a deal as people say it is.” Barbara: It's a great question. You know, it was one that I just had to think about a lot. Actually, I had to think about all these questions a lot because, as Dennis prayed, this topic—this part of our marriage relationship—is not easy.  5:00 It's not simple. It's not cut and dry / it's not black and white. It's very complicated; and even though it's very good, it's very complicated. My short answer to “What is the big deal?” is that it takes a long, long time to understand what God has built into us, as men and women. It takes a while to understand the purpose of sex. It takes a while to undo things that we've brought into our marriage. It just takes time. I think, in our culture today, more than in any other generation, we expect instant results in every area of our lives. We're so used to having instant access to information. We just don't know how to wait—we don't know how to persevere. We don't know how to have patience.    I think, in this area of marriage, our expectation for change to happen quickly and for results to be mastered fast, is a misplaced hope; because I think, in the long run, the goal of marriage is a marathon—  6:00 —it's a lifetime race. Figuring out why it's a big deal takes a lot of time. It's me getting to know my husband, as a man, and him getting to know me, as a woman. That isn't going to take place quickly. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, as it describes two people becoming one—there was a progression that God declared. He said, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one [emphasis added].” One of the problems, Bob—and many of our listeners may be experiencing this right now—we have reversed the order. Bob: Yes. Dennis: We're trying to become one without the leaving and the cleaving—the commitment that really bonds two broken human beings hearts to one another and gives you the only chance of two broken people experiencing marriage for a lifetime, as Barbara was talking about here.  7:00 Bob: Barbara, explain to our listeners why, for a wife / for a woman this issue of a solid commitment is so critical when it comes to intimacy. Barbara: In the book I tell the story of a book that we used to read when our kids were growing up, called The Secret Garden. It's the story of a young woman / a young girl, who grew up in a huge manor estate in England. As she was growing up there, she discovered this garden; and it was a secret garden. It had walls all the way around it that were six to eight feet tall, brick or stone walls. As she dug though the ivy, she found a door. The door was locked and she couldn't get in. Over time, she began to continue to dig around. One day, she found a key and was able to unlock the door and go in.  I use that story in the book because I liken this area of our marriage—this intimacy / this sex in our marriage—to a secret garden.  8:00 It's a place that only a husband and wife go together—no one else is allowed. It is for them only. I think the reason commitment is so important is because it is a place of raw exposure—it is a place of being real with one another—it is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship. We need the walls that that secret garden had. We need the walls of a commitment. We need that security, as women in particular, but men need it as well for us to experience what God intended for us to experience in marriage. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place. Bob: You're talking about something that goes far beyond just the biological experience of intimacy— 9:00 Barbara: Absolutely! Bob: —because the biology may not need that, but the oneness we're talking about here— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —really requires that we can trust one another— Dennis: Yes. Bob: —in order to be vulnerable with one another. Dennis: In fact, Bob, I think what you're hitting on here is so important. I think one of the least understood passages in Scripture—there's a reason why we can't understand it—Genesis, Chapter 2, verse 25. I'm going to read it and then I'm going to explain why we don't understand it—it says, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” That verse comes right after the leave, cleave, and become one. The reason we can't understand what that means—we have never experienced what Adam and Eve did in the garden before the fall. Barbara: That's right; yes. 10:00 Dennis: Two people, totally naked, totally exposed, totally transparent with one another—and there was no shame. There was joy / there was delight—there was the experience of God and one another—there was no hiding in a marriage back then.  When it comes to the subject of sex, I think we're trying to get to that point of being naked and unashamed; but we don't know how to get there. So a lot of single people are co-habiting—they're thinking they can experience the sexual delights of marriage without the commitment— Bob: Right. Dennis: —and they can't! Barbara's talking about a commitment that creates safety around this garden. Bob: There is something about being able to say: “You're safe. I'm not going anywhere. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I will not expose what happens here. You can be who you are and still be loved.” That's what we long for— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —and that is what is supposed to be going on in intimacy in a marriage relationship. 11:00 Barbara: That's what we get married for—we get married to be loved unconditionally. That's our expectation and our hope when we say, “I do”; but we don't realize that it's not just the physical oneness that produces that. It's all of the conversations—it's learning to be, as Dennis just said, naked and unashamed. That does not happen quickly. If you'll think about what happened in Genesis—after that verse where Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed—and then, when the fall happened, what was the first thing that Adam and Eve experienced?   Bob: Their shame. Barbara: Their shame and they were afraid. Bob: Yes. Barbara: I think we vastly underestimate the fears that we bring into marriage. All of us come into marriage with fears, even if we don't have past experiences that were negative or were difficult. We still have the fear of rejection; we have the fear of exposure; we have the fear of being known—  12:00 —just the question, “If you really knew me as I am inside—as I know I am inside—would he still love me?” A man thinks the same thing, “If she really knew what I thought—if she really knew who I was—would she still accept me?”  I think that fear—that we all bring into a marriage—takes time to expose those fears because it's a risk to do so. It takes time to work toward that place of being unashamed. It doesn't ever totally go away, because it won't until we go to heaven; but we can make great progress / we can make great strides in that comfort level that we all long for when we get married. Dennis: That's exactly right.  I have to use a present-day illustration, Bob, of something that really makes me sad—but immediately after the evening news / the local news here, there's one of these Hollywood reports. It always is telling of some breakup of some Hollywood marriage.  13:00 I really feel a great deal of compassion, because they don't understand the God who made this relationship and how He made them to function. In their lost-ness, they're just trying to reach out to one another and experience that oneness and experience the intimacy of a great relationship.  But I've got to tell you—Barbara and I have been married 44 years—and there have been a lot of incredible highs and sadly, some tough, tough lows. The thing that has kept us safe and secure in our relationship is we've never/ever used the “D” word—divorce. It has never crossed our lips. We have used the “C” word—covenant-keeping love for a lifetime. In the process of doing that, two imperfect people are wobbling their way to the finish line, attempting to represent how God designed marriage to proclaim His love to the world; because a marriage is to be a model of Christ and the church.  14:00 It is representative of a husband who loves, serves, leads, and gives his life on behalf of his wife—and a wife who supports her husband and loves him back. One of the ways they both do this is through the gift of sexual intimacy in marriage. Bob: Barbara, I had to smile when I read this letter from your daughter, saying, “So, what's the big deal?” for two reasons. One is because there is a stereotype that says: “This is how women view sex in marriage.” Men are very different. I stop to think to myself, “Would a man ever write to his father, ‘So Dad—' Barbara: “What's the big deal?” [Laughter] Bob: —“'What's the big deal? We're married now. I don't get it—what's the big deal?'” I also smiled because there's a sense in which the mystery of marital intimacy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —is just beginning to unfold in the early days of marriage; right? 15:00 Barbara: That's a word that I use a lot in my book—is the word, “mystery,”—because I think it helps us be more at peace with the process. When we realize that marriage is a mystery—that we will never, totally understand it—because, as Dennis just said, it is a picture of Christ's relationship with us. Just accepting the fact that marriage is a mystery kind of gives you a sense of: “Ah! I can rest. I can relax.” It is a mystery and it is a process of beginning to discover what God has built in this, all along, from the very beginning. As we've been saying, it's about getting to know one another and being transparent with one another. Dennis: When we think of a mystery, we think of an unsolved murder case or a crime. Bob: —a puzzle. Dennis: Yes; exactly. This mystery is going to be revealed—[Laughter] —in heaven, in eternity, with Jesus Christ and the church at the wedding feast of the bridegroom and the bride—the church being the bride.  16:00 In between time, between now—this thing called “time”—and eternity, here you are, as a couple, hammering out your commitment and attempting to be naked and unashamed in a way that honors God. It's tough, and it's hard. I would ask you, Barbara, as a young wife might come to you—what would you say is the most important thing she needs to know as she approaches this most intimate area of the marriage relationship? What does she need to know and do? Barbara: I think the first thing she needs to know—and she may already know this—but I think it bears repeating—and that is that marriage is holy. I think that when we see it as—not just a gift, not just a privilege, not just something we get to experience—but there is an element of marriage that has a holy aspect to it; because God created it and because He lives in our lives, there is a holiness there.  17:00 I think that helps us put it in right perspective—it helps us go: “Well no wonder it's so hard! No wonder it's a challenge to discover the kind of oneness that we got married for.” Secondly, from there, I want to say, too, that I would strongly encourage any young wife to remember that it's an important part of the relationship. It's really a mirror of the rest of your relationship. You may feel like you're having good sex; but if you're not really becoming one—if you're not really being transparent with one another—then you're not going to be really growing together in other areas of your relationship.  It's important that you keep that area of your marriage healthy and growing and keep it alive. The temptation is—when it gets hard, is to just say, “Well, forget it!” but you can't give up on it because it's one of the important parts that God has built into a marriage. Because God created it and God sanctioned it, then we need to learn what He wants us to do with it—we need to figure it out. 18:00 Bob: You know a lot of wives, who are saying, “I hear you and I agree with you; and if I was not tired all the time,— Barbara: Yes. Bob: “—I would give more attention to this! But I am tired all the time! How do I make this a priority, and how do I make it important when I'm exhausted?” Barbara: Did you read that in my book? Bob: Well, I did. Yes! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; I talk about that in the book, because that is such a common complaint for women. I get it! I was tired all the time—and Dennis used to say he would be a very wealthy man if he had a dollar for every time I said, “I am so tired!” [Laughter] Right? Dennis: Right! [Laughter] Barbara: But even if we are so tired—and we are—and a lot of women are exhausted all the time because of the responsibilities of jobs and kids—and just the emotional weight of being in life. There are just so many ups and downs that we feel so deeply; and yet, it's learning to prioritize your life.  19:00 It's deciding, during a particular day, that you're going to take a nap so you've got more energy for your husband at night or it's choosing not to add these things to your schedule so that you can have more energy and more focus for your marriage. It's choosing to keep your marriage a priority—make it a priority. That's hard to do sometimes. There were plenty of times when I would take a nap in the afternoon and I'd still be exhausted at night. Dennis: That's correct! [Laughter] Barbara: It's not a quick and easy solution. [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to insert something. There are men, who are listening right now: “That's right! She's just tired too much.” To which I would say to the guys: “Are you cleaning up the kitchen— Bob: Yes. Dennis: “—after dinner? Are you helping to get the kids ready for bed?—brush their teeth, read them a story, pray with them. Get down on your knees, next to them, and look them in the eyes and ask them how their day was,”—but take some of your wife's load off of her and assume it yourself!  20:00 There is a concept in the Bible called “bearing one another's burdens.” I do think some guys—they want sex, but they don't want the process of loving—that means nourishing, which is creating growth—and cherishing, which is creating value— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —they don't want to do that with their wife. When you help your wife with her household duties, with the kids and all—you're making a statement of value to your wife that she ultimately will hear. Bob: I have to ask you about the wife, who would say, “This is a priority for me— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“but it's less a priority for my husband.”  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Let me first of all, though, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of the book that you've written, which is called Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You address, not only this subject, but you address a variety of subjects—letters that your daughters and daughters-in-law have written to you over the years, asking questions about being a godly wife and how you've responded to those letters that they've written.  21:00 You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of the book; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order by phone. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Dennis: Bob, I just want to say a word to our listeners. When you buy a book from FamilyLife Today, you're helping to keep this radio broadcast on the air. I've got to tell you—the people who really float this ship right here, to keep FamilyLife Today broadcasting, are Legacy Partners. They're people who give, every month, and who say: “I want to keep this kind of right-thinking—a biblical approach to marriage, to sex, to intimacy—I want to keep this on the air in my community; because this is going to make a difference in a lot of people's lives.” I just want to say, “Thanks,” to Legacy Partners right now: “Thank you for making this broadcast possible.” Bob: If you'd like to join the Legacy Partner team, we could use more Legacy Partners.  22:00 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link, where it says, “Donate.” There's information available there about becoming a Legacy Partner. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Barbara Rainey has joined us today. We've been talking about Chapter 6 in her book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara, we started the conversation with a letter that you got from one of your daughters, saying, “What's the big deal?” There are some wives, who have been listening to us have this conversation, and they have said, “My question is: ‘Why isn't this a bigger deal— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“'for my husband? I'm ready. In fact, I feel robbed, or starved, or like there's something wrong with me! What do I do?” Barbara: I interviewed a couple of young women when I wrote this particular portion of the chapter because I wanted to know what they thought, and what they felt, and what they were experiencing. It's interesting—I don't have statistics to back this up—but I did do some research and talked to a number of different counselors and different people.  23:00 I think, oftentimes, there are issues in a young man's life that are keeping him from wanting to have sex with his wife; and typically, it's pornography.  In the women that I talked to—when I was preparing to write this chapter—that was the issue with most of these young men. There was so much shame attached to them as men / as young men because they were exposed, when they were children or when they were teenagers, and they just didn't know how to handle it—they still don't know how to handle it. That shame is keeping them from wanting to be one, sexually, with their wife.  Whether it is pornography or whether it is something else, the encouragement that I got from those that I talked to and that I would offer to you is that this is a concern that you need to carry with him. Dennis just mentioned, a minute ago, the verse, “Bear one another's burdens.” Once you become married, your burdens become one another's. You need to carry those burdens together. 24:00 I would encourage a wife, who is in that situation, to say to her husband: “You know, I know this is hard; and this is hard for me too. Let's go find someone who can help us; because I'm committed to you for a lifetime, and you agreed to be committed to me for a lifetime. Let's figure out what we need to do. Let's find what challenges we need to face. Let's do the work together to make our marriage what God intended it to be.” I know—from talking to these women—that it can change / it can be redeemed. God can change those broken places in both of our lives and bring you to a place where marriage is what you wanted it to be and where sex, in particular, is as God designed it to be. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                                From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2)  Bob: Why does it seem like moms are often not that interested in marital intimacy? Barbara Rainey understands. Barbara: It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else; and, yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority because, if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Barbara Rainey joins us today to talk about how she worked to make intimacy a priority in her marriage when there were six kids still living at home. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. With the season of romance and love in the air—and let me just remind some of the husbands who are listening—Valentine's Day is coming up. You may want to put that on your calendar or on your reminder list so that you don't arrive at that day and find yourself empty-handed. I've had that experience—it's not a fun experience when that happens. [Laughter] Do you know what I'm talking about? Dennis: No. [Laughter] Bob: Yes; you do! Dennis: Forty-four years; and I'm batting a thousand, Bob! [Laughter] Bob: Are you? Dennis: Ask her! She's here with us! Bob: We have an eye witness here. Barbara Rainey is joining us. Is that true? Has he never missed a Valentine's Day? Has he always had a card, or a gift, or something? Dennis: I've always shown up! Bob: Showing up is something else! [Laughter] Barbara: You have been present.  2:00 Although, I don't know that you've always been present on Valentine's because of travel. Dennis: Oh, yes! That's probably true. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Well, we thought it would be helpful today to discuss the area of sex, and intimacy, and romance, especially since this is something, Barbara—that you wrote about in your book that is now almost a year old—it's called Letters to My Daughters. Chapter 6 was all about helping your daughters and other young wives understand what's going on with this aspect of a marriage relationship. Dennis: And, at this point, I want to read a P.S. that Barbara puts at the end of one of these letters. Now, the book has nine chapters. There's only one chapter on sex, but it's a long chapter; and there are like half a dozen letters that pose a question to Barbara that she answers in the book. I just want to read this:  P.S. There are additional unseen benefits to regular sexual relations in marriage.  3:00 Three little facts I learned from one of our FamilyLife Today radio guests: Number one: The chemicals oxytocin and dopamine, when released in the brain, increase bonding; the reexpression of love and commitment strengthens mutual affection; and there is a sense of satisfaction in keeping intimacy alive, even if the actual experience isn't a great one. The last is my favorite, because in our marriage…  Now, this is really interesting for me to read on air; because, Bob, you know, we have people come up to us and they say: “You guys! All you do is present a perfect picture of marriage!” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Well, I'm about to dispel that [Laughter] in what I'm about to read that my wife wrote in this book! The last one is my favorite, because in our marriage, sex hasn't always been accompanied by fireworks! Among a lot of good-to-great experiences, we've also had some pretty lousy encounters… 4:00 Did you really write that in this book?! Barbara: I did. [Laughter] And I can tell you still don't like it very much. Dennis: I don't; I don't. [Laughter] I complained about this when I edited it, but you didn't take it out. …some pretty lousy encounters…some that left us both either disappointed or hurt. That makes the chemical facts all the more important, because even not-great sex still bonds us together. Nice to know, huh? [Laughter] Dennis: Honestly, I really appreciate Barbara's honesty about our marriage, because I think a lot of people out there are hurting. They think they're the only ones that ever had a lousy encounter around the sexual relationship. Bob: When you and Dennis, together, wrote the book, Rekindling the Romance, you talked about seasons of a marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: You talked about early love, and then you talked about, kind of, this middle season—  Barbara: Yes. Bob: —where it just can kind of get routine.  5:00 A lot of husbands and wives, in the middle of raising kids and going through things—they hit that season and they think to one another, “This is it?” They're frustrated and they're disappointed. They wonder, if they switch partners, if things would get better for them. Dennis: Or, let me tell you this—Barbara spoke to one group of women who talked about a no-sex marriage, where people just give up / toss in the towel and say, “We're done.” Bob: And we've talked to couples, who have said, “It's been two years” / “…three years since we've been intimate with one another. We're committed, and we still love each other; but we've just kind of given up on that area of our marriage.” You would say to a wife, who says, “We've given up and we're content, and it's working out for us,”—what would you say? Barbara: I would say that's a dangerous assumption. I think that it's a very real possibility in a lot of marriages, because— 6:00 —you're right—there is a middle ground in marriage, where it's just hard work; because you have so many demands on both of your lives. There's not much energy left over; there's not much enthusiasm; there's not much rest. It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else.  Yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority; because if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else, which is why there are so many affairs. There are so many couples, who are splitting up and finding new partners, because it is exciting. They're finding that excitement that they once had in the early days of their marriage. 7:00 But it's not going to satisfy; it's not going to replace; it's not going to be better. It's actually going to be more complicated.  I really believe, and I've repeated it multiple times in my book, that God is big enough to change any marriage. I strongly believe that His Word is true when He said, “Nothing is too hard for Me.” You may look at your marriage, and you may go: “This is impossible! This is just too hard! I don't think there's any way out.” I want you to know—I've felt that way. I remember feeling that way at different times in those middle years of marriage, when we were swamped with kids and life. It felt too hard; but I knew that God meant what He said when He said, “Nothing is impossible for Me.” So, therefore, if I believe in God—and I do—then I have to take Him at His Word. I have to go to Him and say: “This feels impossible. This feels too difficult, but I know that You can bring life back to our marriage.”  8:00 If you don't quit, then there's always the hope of the redemption—there's the hope of God bringing new life back into your marriage. But when you quit, you've basically slammed the door on the possibility of God working a miracle. I think that's a tragedy. Dennis: And there's a biblical admonition that Paul gives us from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. He said, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise, the wife to her husband.” It goes on to talk about the wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and the husband doesn't have authority over his body, but the wife does. What I think Paul is exhorting us to here is that you've got to pay attention to one of the strongest drives in humanity. I got to thinking about this, and there are really only a couple of drives, I think, such as the need for oxygen and the need for water and food that would supplant sexuality.  9:00 Bob: You think survival might be a little ahead? Dennis: Well, those are both survival categories; but the point is—the urge for two people to merge was put there by God. I've thought about this many times. It's a good thing, in most marriages, that one of the two of you has a stronger desire to be with the other in the area of sexuality. Why? Because if one of you didn't have a pursuit, what might happen? You'd just have two people, spinning plates, off doing their own thing, and occasionally coming back, like roommates at a house to be able to maybe touch each other with eyesight, but never emotionally—never in depth, with a true, real relationship—the way God designed it in marriage. I think God, in His ingenuity, has made something powerful here that too often has been called “dirty.”  10:00 It really is a healthy desire for two people to become one.  Bob: So this brings up the issue, then, Barbara: “How would you coach a wife? Is it ever appropriate for her to say, ‘No, not now / not tonight—I'm not interested right now.' How should she say that? And what are the legitimate reasons for her to say, ‘I can't be with you'? Is it because, ‘I'm too tired,' or because, ‘You hurt me the other day'? What works here?” Barbara: Well, first of all, I think she does have a responsibility to be honest with her husband. I think that faking it—faking being together sexually—is not going to accomplish anything. If there is emotional distance between you—and you're feeling hurt because of something he said or if you really are so exhausted that you just can't function anymore that day—those are real life issues that we all deal with and we all feel. 11:00 The purpose of sex and of coming together is for intimacy—it's for transparency / it's for sharing our lives together. I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying it—I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman expressing how she feels or what her needs are—because to not do that is being disingenuous / that's not transparency. If the goal is transparency / the goal is intimacy and oneness, you have to be real / you have to be honest. Now, the way you do that, I think, is what's most important. That is, you can say, “I just can't tonight,” or “I feel like we've got to finish talking about this argument that we had two days ago,” or whatever it might be.  It's the way in which you communicate that that matters to your husband. It must be done with respect; it must be done with commitment; it must be done with love. You say something like: “I need you to know what I'm feeling. Can we talk about this now, or should we talk about it later?”  12:00 “I need some resolution in this area of our relationship.” If you communicate that you're committed to him and you say: “I'm committed to you, and I'm going to work this out. I want to be with you, just not tonight,” or “…just not right now.” I think that's perfectly acceptable as long as “not right now” doesn't turn into two years. I think it needs to be an agreement between a husband and a wife—they talk about it, and they find a solution together that works for both of them. It has to be mutual. Bob: That's 1 Corinthians 7 again; isn't it? Dennis: It is. Paul goes on to say: “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement, for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer. But then, come back together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” I mean, we live in a highly-sexualized culture.  13:00 We've got to understand one another.  Here's where Barbara's book does an outstanding job of helping young wives, and for that matter, older wives understand their husbands in this area—and how they are made by God—and that it's good—it's not bad / it's not evil.. They should bless their husband and not ignore him. If you need to say, “Not tonight, Sweetheart,” don't ignore it tomorrow night, and the next night, and the next night, and the next night. Bob: So the wife who is feeling, tonight: “I think he might be interested. I just—maybe if I just go to bed early—I don't say anything / I just fall— you know, he comes in and finds me asleep. Then, he'll leave me alone.” She gets a little passive-aggressive with how she handles this. She finds ways to dodge or avoid. Dennis: Do you think a guy doesn't know this? Barbara: Yes! He does. Dennis: Yes; he does! Bob: So, to that wife—you'd say: “It's time to get this out in the open and have the conversation”? 14:00 Barbara: Yes; I do. I think it's much better to talk about it. I mean, I think it's a temptation for all of us women to want to kind of just avoid it and hope it will go away when we're too tired, or overwhelmed, or whatever. But making it go away isn't the solution. It's not the solution to any kind of a disagreement, or an impasse, or something that's between you, as husband and wife. It's like the part that Dennis read earlier from my book—even not-so-great sex is bonding. It's remembering what's true / it's remembering the value that God places on your marriage and on the sexual part of your marriage relationship. It's going to him and saying: “I am really exhausted, but I sense that you might be interested in making love tonight,” or “…having sex tonight. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about a solution? Can we figure out what we want to do together so that we're mutually agreeing?” She's not controlling by being passive, and going to sleep ahead of time, and hoping he won't notice.  15:00 Does that make sense? Bob: It does! What do you say, then, to the wife who says, “You know what? Thirty pounds ago, he was attractive. Today, I'm just not attracted to him.” Or she says, “Thirty pounds ago, I felt attractive.  Barbara: Yes. Bob: “And now, I don't feel desirable. Even though he says he's interested, I think, ‘How can you be? Because I look at myself in the mirror and I don't feel attractive.'” What do you say about those issues? Barbara: Well, I think those are just further reflections of our need for transparency and our need for oneness. We got married to be acceptable to one another. We got married to know one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses. So when we gain weight or when things change about us, are we still committed? Are we still called to love one another? Are we still committed to making our marriage all that God wants it to be for as long as we both shall live?  Well, we have to learn to love one another in our weaknesses.  16:00 We have to learn to love one another in our imperfections. Yes; it may have been easier when you were both in your 20s and you were both—whatever attracted you to each other—but marriage wasn't built for just when we're in our 20s. Marriage was built for a lifetime. You are going to go through trials and difficulties, and both of you are going to change. Is God big enough to give you the kind of love that will last?—the kind of intimacy that you got married for in those years when you are challenged with health issues, or weight issues, or whatever it is? Dennis: And I know a dad who took his daughters aside—they had several daughters—and he just talked to them about the importance of your attractiveness to your husband: “You need to do your job of being the best—the very best—magnet you can be to your man.” Now, we all know that there are these superstar models out there.  Bob: Right. 17:00 Dennis: You're never going to be able to compete at that level, but you know what? You can be a beautiful, attractive wife to your husband. One of the things I appreciate about Barbara is—even when she says she doesn't feel pretty, she's still incredibly attractive to me. I just appreciated her for how she's paid attention to the process of aging. I mean, 44 years—that means our listeners know we're no longer teenagers in our 20s; okay? Forty-four years of marriage—I mean, you've got a lot of gravity to fight by the time you get there. So the point is: “Do you care enough to love your husband in the way that speaks love to him?” Barbara: And it's not just about the exterior; because I think what we're talking about right now—people tend to think it's the exterior. It's not! What makes a person beautiful—what makes a man or a woman beautiful—is our hearts.  18:00 If we pay attention to our hearts, we pay attention to learning to love well, and to do what God has called us to do as men and as women, then we're going to be attractive to one another. Because when Dennis serves me, and denies himself for me, and when he does the kinds of things that I know cost him something—and he's doing it because he loves me—that's attractive to me. I mean, I appreciate that / I respond to that. Any woman alive will do that; because, when she sees a man sacrificing for her—we're just built to respond to that—and vice-versa—when women serve their husbands and love their husbands, that's what makes us attractive. Bob: We've been focusing on your counsel to young wives because, again, that's the subject of the book you've written: Letters to My Daughters. I did want to, before we're done, go back 22 years and let our listeners hear a clip of advice that you shared for husbands in this area of sex and romance, back when we recorded a series on FamilyLife Today, back in 1995—   19:00 Dennis: This is scary! [Laughter] Barbara: It is! Bob: —called—do you remember 1995? Do you remember being 22 years younger than you are now? Barbara: Yes, but that was a long time ago! [Laughter] Bob: Well, we're going to hear this clip in just a minute. Let me, first, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of your book, Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online at our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order your copy of Barbara Rainey's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order a copy when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, when you're on the website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there's a banner there that says, “Romance Me.”  20:00 If you click that, there's a quiz you can take to talk about your romantic style and your spouse's romantic style and to see where there's compatibility and where there might be areas for growth. Click on that when you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can share the romance quiz with friends on Facebook® or on Twitter®. We just thought this would be something fun for you to do and just see how you match up in the area of romance. Let me also say a quick word of thanks to those folks who made today's program possible—it's those of you who support this ministry. Particularly, we want to thank those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners and who provide the financial stability / the backbone for this daily radio program. You really are partners with us in this outreach to marriages and families, all around the world, as we work to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We appreciate your partnership with us. 21:00 If you're able to help with a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book called Moments with You. It's our thank-you gift if you make a one-time donation or if you make your first gift as a Legacy Partner. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more or to make a donation. Orcall 1-800-FL-TODAY, and you can donate over the phone. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, we promised our listeners that they were going to get a chance to hear some advice that you shared to husbands. We were recording a series called “Creating a More Romantic Marriage.” We were just asking you to help husbands understand how women think on this issue of romance, and intimacy, and sex in marriage. Dennis: Is this the story about Saran Wrap? [Laughter] Barbara: No!! [Laughter] Bob: Stop it! 22:00 Barbara: It's a story about “a + b = c”; right? Bob: Ah, she knows where we're headed! [Laughter] Listen to this clip from 22 years ago: [Previous Interview] Barbara: I don't think that a woman wants to feel pegged; I don't think she wants to feel figured out, button-holed, taken advantage of—whatever you want to call it. I think that that defeats the essence of love. Again, I think that a husband needs to live with her in an understanding way, and to love her as Christ loved the church, and then she will respond to that. Bob: So it sounds to me like the message here to men is: “Once you've found what really communicates love to your wife,—  Dennis: —“don't ever do that again!” [Laughter] Bob: That's right. Barbara: Noooo! Bob: — “she will realize it, and she will change the rules. Barbara: That's not true. Bob: “And tomorrow it's going to be something completely different!” [Laughter] Barbara: It makes us sound schizophrenic. Bob: But that's what it feels like for men sometimes! Barbara: I know! Dennis: Well, it feels like it to a man—that, here, he is doing his best to love his wife— Barbara: I understand. Dennis: —and she throws away the rule book. Barbara: I do. 23:00 Dennis: And she says: “I don't want a rule book. I don't want to be figured out.” Barbara: It sounds awful! [Laughter] It really does. Bob: But it's true; isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true. I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times and she loves it; and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged and she doesn't ever want them again for the rest of her life. I think there needs to be variety / there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old, prescribed pattern.  [Studio] Bob: So, 22 years later, it still can't be a formula. Is that what you're saying?  Barbara: That is correct. It cannot be a formula. Women still want to be pursued / we still want to be figured out. I think it's a very good thing. Dennis: I'm Dennis Rainey, and that's real family life! [Laughter] Bob: I was waiting for you to say, “I approve this message,”— Barbara: Yes!  Bob: —but you didn't say that; did you? Barbara: No. Dennis: That was back last fall—we can't say that anymore. [Laughter]  24:00 No; it's really important that men live with their wives in an understanding way and that a husband understands that his wife needs to be loved. That's a lifetime assignment. What communicates love to your wife will be different than mine, and what communicates love to your wife today will be different in a decade. It will grow / it will mature.  I'll tell you what you have, as you move into the twilight years of life, you're going to have a great relationship that you wouldn't want to swap out with anybody, even though there've been some very, very difficult times. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Final ExhortationsDay 3 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright   Bob:                Dr. Bill Bright has a message for Christians today, and it's a simple, basic message. Bill:                  I would say to all believers – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  Seek first His kingdom, obey His commandments, trust His promises, and spend the rest of your life getting to know Him so you can love Him and trust Him and obey Him without any hesitancy. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, February 21st.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today a conversation with a man whose life is centered in The Great Commission and The Great Commandment.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  For the last couple of days we've been listening back to an interview that was conducted recently with the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright.  I don't know if you've ever wondered this – but have you ever asked yourself what would have happened to Bill Bright if he'd never been converted, if he'd never come to faith in Christ?  What do you think his life would have been, what would it have looked like? Dennis:          Well, he described himself a couple of days ago on FamilyLife Today as a happy pagan.  He was very successful in the candy business and had created a line of candies called "Bright's Confectionary Candies," I guess. Bob:                "Bright's Delights," wasn't it? Dennis:          Bright's Delights, that's right, that's right.  So maybe some major chocolate lines wouldn't be here because Bill Bright would be ruling in the candy world.  But he didn't do that, Bob.  He yielded and surrendered his life and signed over a title deed of his life, along with his wife Vonette, and for more than 50 years they not only have been married but also have been in surrendered service to Christ and have been used mightily by God. Bob:                I think one of the things that has stuck in my mind, as I've had the opportunity to meet and interact with Dr. Bright, has been his remarkable focus.  Most of us get distracted by all kinds of lesser things, but I don't think I've ever seen him in any environment at any time when he's been distracted by anything other than the Gospel.  It's always about life with Christ.  It's always about evangelism and discipleship and walking with Christ and getting to know the Savior.  I don't know if he's paid attention to anything mundane in the last 50 years. Dennis:          I think some of our listeners would probably be shocked at how little television, how few movies he's ever seen in his life.  I doubt if he reads much of the newspaper, but he saturates his mind and his heart and his life with the scriptures, and I've heard him say on a number of occasions, "I evaluate every day of my life as to how it will contribute to The Great Commission.                          Now, if you think about it, it makes sense that if Jesus Christ said "I have the greatest commission that has ever been given, that I want to give to you," wouldn't it be wise for us to evaluate our lives and how they are contributing to fulfilling what Jesus called the greatest commission – to go to the world and proclaim the Gospel. Bob:                Well, let me take our listeners with us to Bill Bright's living room at his condominium in Orlando, Florida, where we had the opportunity to enjoy a casual conversation about some deeply profound subjects.  Here's Dr. Bill Bright: Dennis:          By all measures of this world, you have lived, not a storybook life, but certainly a successful life.  You undoubtedly have a definition of what a successful life looks like.  Would you mind sharing that? Bill:                  Successful Christian life, and that's summum bonum – that's more important than any other – is the crucified life.  Paul writes in Galatians 2:20 – "I am crucified with Christ.  Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live with the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."  So the success of the Christian life belongs to those who know the reality of being crucified with Christ. Dennis:          Putting to death the flesh. Bill:                  Putting death to flesh – and out of that relationship, where Christ is all – He is Lord, He is Master, He is Savior, He is King – comes joy and rejoicing and full of glory.  So that's success – being dead to self and alive to Christ. Dennis:          As a man, as a husband, and as a father – do you have any regrets? Bill:                  I shared one with you – my failure to witness to Coach Red Sanders. Dennis:          The coach at UCLA back in the early 1950s? Bill:                  Yes.  That was an experience I've lived with all these years, because I disobeyed God. Dennis:          Any others? Bill:                  I, obviously, am far from a perfect husband or father or anything, but I don't have any regrets.  I look back on a life that's been rich and full, even the defeats, even the times of heartache and sorrow, God has used for His glory.  It's like Joseph said of his imprisonment and his problems as a result of being sold into slavery by his brothers – "What you intended for evil, God used for good."  And I've found that even in my mistakes, if my spirit is right, my heart is pure, my motives are pure, God turns my mistakes to blessings. Dennis:          Looking back over your life, you've done a lot of courageous things.  Obviously, God at work in you, but what would you say, looking back over 81 years, was the most courageous act you've ever performed? Bill:                  Well, there are many thoughts that come to mind – surrendering everything, where we signed a contract to be slaves of Jesus, putting everything in His hands – all that we owned or ever would own – that was simply an act of obedience, so I don't think it was that courageous, because I was doing what He told me to do.                           Moving to UCLA to start the ministry – I was the only one on staff, thought I was teaching school, and she joined me the second year.  I think, for example, when God led us to start Expo 72.  We'd never done anything like this and a good percentage of the staff leaders objected and some resigned.  Another time, when 13 men marched into my office, men who were like my sons whom I love to this day, every one of them, and God never allowed me to resent them, but they came into my office and demanded I resign.  They were taking over the movement.  To this day, when I have met them on different occasions, I give them a big hug and mean it.  I say, "I love you," and mean it.  That was something that God used to be a blessing.  Incidentally, six of those men left.  They were going to take the whole movement, and 750 people joined the staff that summer, and it was like God pruned so He could give fruit. Dennis:          Bill, you've been close to death because of your lung disease.  Have you ever been afraid to die? Bill:                  No. Dennis:          There's never been the fear of dying? Bill:                  As a matter of fact, God has graciously given me the joy of dying.  You know, face it, you can't lose when you go to be with the Lord.  But Vonette and I were on this airplane out of New York flying to Washington one evening some years ago, and it rained all afternoon.  The flight was delayed and delayed and delayed and finally the pilots apparently just took it in their hands and said, "We're going to fly."  So within minutes after we got in the air, we were in the middle of a firestorm.  I mean, a ball of fire and a tornado type wind, and the plane was like a leaf in the wind – it was awesome.  The wings were just going up and down like a bird, and we knew we couldn't possibly survive. So Vonette and I sat there in the plane, held hands, and prayed and said goodbye and thanked the Lord that we would soon be with Him, and it was very somber and yet – I can't say it was joyful because, frankly, it was frightening.  The plane was just about to come apart, from our perspective.  And we flew and flew and flew and just kept flying and Washington isn't that far away.  By this time, it was night, and finally we landed in a little out-of-the-way airport and discovered that the lightning had struck a hole in the fuselage.  I'd never heard of that before.  It knocked out all the navigational instruments and the pilot was flying blind. When we got off the plane, he was as white as a sheet, and he said, "In all my millions of miles, I've never had an experience like this."  Well, I didn't know it, how serious it was – oh, I knew it was serious – but when I got to Washington, D.C., the next morning we rode the bus from that place to the airport, and I got to the desk, and the girl said, "Oh, you were on that plane that was struck by lightning, and the plane has a big hole in it."  I didn't know that, of course.  I'd never heard of that happening. So then I was in Ghana – I had a summer experience where, in those days, most national airlines were not safe.  The flight was delayed again and again and again.  Finally, after some hours, we took off.  In the meantime, I'd gone around witnessing different people – nobody seemed to be interested, and so just as we were off the pad, just barely, there was this big explosion.  So I thought a tire blew out, but we came to a screeching halt and got off, and the motor had blown up, and had we been in the air, we'd be dead. Dennis:          Unbelievable. Bill:                  So I've had a few of these … Bob:                … but it's not the fear of death – we're never sure how we're going to get there, whether it's going to be a bumpy ride, whether we're going to wind up with a disease that takes us, but all of us are headed to the same place. Bill:                  Death is universal, we're all going to die.  That's the reason it's so important to know where we're going while we're still alive. Dennis:          Bill, someday the news will go out around the world, because it will be an international news event of your home-going, and when that happens, we want to honor Christ for what He did in your life, and I'm most certain that will happen through your memorial service and all that occurs after your home-going.  But I'm wondering what you would want the world to know – your final exhortation – because we're going to play a tape of a broadcast like this with you that Bob and I have done and have some of your words on it.  What would be your final exhortation to the world? Bill:                  I would say to all believers – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.  Seek first His kingdom, obey His commandments, trust His promises, and spend the rest of your life getting to know Him so you can love Him and trust Him and obey Him without any hesitancy.  Vonette and I have talked about this and concluded:  My own desire was to die as I've tried to live – Galatians 2:20 – Bill Bright is crucified with Christ.  And I asked her if she would bury me in an unmarked grave as a testimony of Galatians 2:20, because dead people are dead. She didn't think it was a good idea.  So we agreed that we would have on our tombstone – "Bill and Vonette Bright, slaves of Jesus" – Philippians 2:7, Jesus was a slave.  God the Creator came to earth disguised as a slave.  And Paul speaks of himself, Romans 1:1 – "slave" and Peter and others – so we'd have appropriate references – but Bill and Vonette Bright, slaves of Jesus, because, as you know, we signed the contract in the spring of 1951 – literally wrote out a contract and signed it to be His slaves, and it's the most liberating thing that's ever happened to us.  I want that to be a testimony of the greatest privilege anyone can have – to be a slave of Jesus. Dennis:          Well, I want you to know, over a year and a half ago when the news came that it looked like you were going to be coming back to Florida, where we are here for this interview, to spend your final days and to die, I spent several hours writing you a letter of – just expressing my profound appreciation for being an employee for 33 years of Campus Crusade.  I'm coming up on my 33rd year.  Bill, it's a miracle you didn't fire me. Bill:                  You're too young. Dennis:          But I really – I appreciate you, your life, and I wanted you to know that face-to-face.  I wrote you the letter and expressed that in that letter, God used my dad in my life and some key pastors to disciple me, and I count you right up there at the top with them of men who have had a profound impact on my life. Bill:                  I'm not worthy to hear that, but I was so moved when you expressed your love in that way in the letter.  I treasure that. Dennis:          Well, I know you received quite a few of them, because I would run into guys who had said they had been to visit you, and I thought, "He's not going to have time to die.  He's got too many people lined up to express appreciation," but I love you. Bill:                  Well, you are very special to me, Dennis.  I have shared with many people through the years what an inspiration and challenge you are to me – what a blessing you are, and I'm just honored to be on this program, and I believe, in spite of the way God's already used you, the best is before you, and I predict that in your lifetime your influence will be as great as anything I've been privileged to experience worldwide. Dennis:          You are very kind. Bob:                Well, this has been a treat.  Over the last three days we've been listening to an interview that was recorded just a few months ago with Dr. Bill Bright, the founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ, and, boy, there at the end, it was a tender moment. Dennis:          It was and, frankly, I didn't think I was going to have the opportunity to say that face-to-face, Bob.  I had written some very tender words to him privately and had sent them to him because I thought, frankly, he was dying, but it was not something that I intended to do there at the end of our interview, but looking back on hearing those words again, it was a sweet moment, and I don't want our listeners to go away just yet, because at the end I was sitting there, and I was looking at you, Bob, and I really love and appreciate you, and I was thinking, "You know, if I was Bob, I would really like to hear Bill Bright pray for me."  And so I asked him to do that at the end, and he prayed for not only Bob but for me as well … Bob:                … he prayed for both of us … Dennis:          … and I want our listeners to hear that prayer. Bob:                Before we play that, let me let you know that we have copies of Dr. Bright's book on the character of God, the attributes of God.  It's called "God:  Discover His Character."  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy or you can go online at FamilyLife.com.  Either way, we can have the book sent to you.  This is something you can use in your quiet time, you can use it for a group Bible study, you can use it for family devotions.  If you're home schooling, you can use it for your Bible curriculum with your children.  This is fundamental to how we live as Christians.  So let me encourage you to get a copy of this book, make sure it's in your library.  Again, it's called "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright, and you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request a copy or order online at FamilyLife.com.                         When you do contact us, if you'd like to get a copy of the complete interview with Dr. Bright – we've only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today – but we have the entire discussion available on CD or on cassette, and you can request that resource online at FamilyLife.com or when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. As we played back that conversation, Dennis, I was thinking about the letter that you are going to be sending out to our Legacy Partners here in the next few weeks, where you talk about the fact that we have lost our respect for authority and our fear of God.  When we do know God, we develop a reverence and awe for who He is, and I appreciated your comments in that letter.  It's part of our regular communication with those folks who so support this ministry on a monthly basis.  Not only do they hear from you, but we often hear from them.  In fact, we had a Legacy Partner in New York state who wrote recently and said, "Pray for guidance on what would be God's perfect plan for us, whether we ought to add a fourth child to our family.  We just finished our most recent Homebuilders study, and our spiritual growth has skyrocketed.  Thank you for your prayers.  We are praying for you."  What a delight to hear from folks who not only support this ministry with their financial gifts but those of you who pray for us as well.  We have just added a whole bunch of new Legacy Partners to this ministry, and thanks to those of you who have joined with us in this effort. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner, or if you'd like to request prayer, you can write to us at FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221, or you can make a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and you can also phone in your donation at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Well, I hope our listeners have had the chance to listen over the last three days.  If not, I hope you'll get either the cassettes or the CDs of our conversation with Dr. Bill Bright.  That dialog went on for nearly two hours, and at the end of that time, Dennis, you asked Dr. Bright to pray for us, and we wanted our listeners to hear that prayer.  Here is Dr. Bill Bright. Bill:                  Father, Father, Holy Father, we bow in reverence before Your majesty.  We are in awe of Your greatness.  When we think of who You are, we realize how little we are, how small in comparison, and yet even when we were yet in our sins, You died for us.  You love us.  You delight in us, and I thank You that in your sovereignty You chose Dennis and Bob to do what they're doing, and You've anointed them and given them favor and great blessing, and I ask, Holy Father, You'll keep them pure, keep their motives pure, their hearts pure, their attitudes, their desires, that they will be men of God after Your heart.  There will be no sin in their lives that will hinder Your working in and through them.  That is they speak day after day to millions of people, and that number, O gracious God, I pray will increase by the millions.  They will be channels of Your love, Your forgiveness, Your grace, to the multitudes of earth.  I pray for the day when their ministry will literally encircle the globe, where millions upon millions, day after day, will be drawn closer to You, will love You and trust You and obey You because of their influence.  Lord Jesus, bless their families – their families and their children's children's children yet unborn, that they may always love You, serve You, trust You, obey You, and that the legacy of these men will go on and on until You return.  Blessed Holy Father, thank You once again for these men whom You have chosen, whom You have anointed, whom You have empowered and may all glory, honor, worship, and praise go to You.  We pray it in the name of the One whose name is above everything, the Lord Jesus Christ.  Amen. Bob:                FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

A Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 1) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 2) - Bill BrightA Visit With Bill Bright During His Last Days (Part 3) - Bill BrightFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Finish the RaceDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    Bill Bright From the series:   Reflections of Life:  A Personal Visit With Bill Bright  Bob:                There is a problem within the church today.  According to Dr. Bill Bright, there are a lot of people who say they love God when many of them don't really know Him. Bill:                  The average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know, you can't trust someone you don't know, you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover His character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, February 20th.  Our host is the Executive Director of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Today – a conversation with a man who has spent his life introducing people to their Creator.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You've been asked a number of times by people that question – if you could have dinner with any four people, living or dead, who would you invite to your dinner party and probably stopped and considered that question and thought about the Apostle Paul or about King David or whoever you might choose to be at your dinner party.                         I would imagine that there would be many listeners who, when asked that question, would have on their list, the opportunity to invite Bill and Vonette Bright to that dinner party and just to be able to interact with them about a life of faithfulness to Christ that God has honored in a remarkable way. Dennis:          You know, when I was a young man starting out right after college, I had no idea how Bill Bright's life would impact mine initially, from a distance.  But here in the last dozen or so years, I've had the opportunity to have many, many meals with Bill, to have personal time with him, and you and I had the opportunity to fly down to Orlando and sit in their living room and just have a sweet chat with an 81-year-old man who is suffering from a very serious illness … Bob:                … he's got a pulmonary fibrosis … Dennis:          … right – that has taken away 60 percent of his lungs' capacity, and, Bob, you and I both left those interviews, which we started on yesterday's broadcast, and if you missed it, I would encourage you to call and get the tapes and get the entire interview, because it's a great reminder from a man who has lived his life well, about what is really important.  And one of the things I wanted to ask him about and interview him about was the subject of money, because there's a lot of great stories about how Bill Bright personally has approached money and his own personal wealth, which he doesn't have a lot of personal wealth. Bob:                In spite of the fact that he has written a number of books and at one point was handed a check for $1 million. Dennis:          Right, he won the Templeton Award and gave that money immediately and invested it in Campus Crusade for Christ for the purpose of prayer and fasting. Bob:                In fact, I think he talks about that in the section of the interview we're going to hear today, because you did quiz him about the issue of wealth and how we handle our money and, in fact, that's where we'll pick things up today.  This is Part 2 of an interview done recently with the former president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Dr. Bill Bright. Dennis:          You have rubbed shoulders with people who have had enormous wealth in your 81 years of life.  You've been a part of seeing people invest literally tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars in the kingdom work.  What advice would you have for the man, the couple, who really want to use their lives and their wealth for the glory of God? Bill:                  Well, first of all, wealth is a gift of God.  It all belongs to Him.  At best, we are stewards.  There is no one who could say, "Look, I've accumulated this vast fortune.  I did it with my own ability."  Everything is a gift, even the breath which we breathe, and I'm on oxygen 24 hours a day, so I appreciate breath as a gift of God.                           But anyone who thinks that they are responsible for their vast wealth is not thinking logically.  There are many, many factors that contribute to vast wealth, and so I say to men and women of wealth – live a good life.  Enjoy yourself, but you should not be extravagant and don't destroy your grandchildren by leaving them large sums of money.  Take care of sending them to college or whatever they may need but be sure you do not spoil your children and your grandchildren and future heirs by leaving a trust that will cause them to be lethargic, complacent, and never develop the skills which you've developed because you had to.                         Remember, it's all God's money, and you're going to be held accountable in a very real way when you get to heaven, if you make it, and if your money and your wealth and your material possessions are your god, you won't make it.   Bob:                Have you seen people leave money to children or grandchildren and that lethargic complacency that you're talking about – have you seen those who were destroyed by … Bill:                  … absolutely, absolutely.  I think of a tragic situation – a couple came to me one day.  They had worked hard together.  They had built a fortune.  They had one daughter, and she married an atheist who hated God, and they said, "What are we going to do with that money?"  I said, "Whatever you do, don't leave it to your daughter and your grandchildren, because he will use it for purposes that are contrary to everything you stand for.  Give it away while you're alive.  Take care of them in a modest way but don't give that money to your atheistic son-in-law," who wouldn't even allow his children to go to Sunday school.                         Well, their love for their children overruled that, and they left it to the family, and you can imagine what happened to it.  It was a tragic situation.  They'll be held accountable for this.  It's well known that people who inherit large sums of money in their youth generally are not properly motivated to maximize their gifts.  So they drift through life, living a life of ease, and they literally become parasites on society.  And, as you know, in parts of the world where there is the class of the super-rich, they're usually very decadent.  That's not always true but all too often extreme wealth clouds the thinking of the recipients of that wealth – bigger homes, bigger cars, a greater opulence and extravagance instead of "Lord, this is all yours.  How can we use it to bring greater glory, greater honor, and greater praise to You." Bob:                Does it seem to you that sometimes those who don't have any spiritual convictions are more generous and more inclined to give?  I'm thinking of Ted Turner giving millions of dollars to the United Nations or Bill Gates setting up a foundation for vaccinations around the world.  I sometimes wonder if we ought to take a lesson from some of these folks. Bill:                  Well, one should never question another's motives – why they give – but there are many tax benefits, many considerations, and I pray that those who God, whether they believe it or not, God uniquely blessed.  I think back on my own career as a businessman.  I started my business with a modest capital, and because of the influence of two men who were kind of like fathers to me – they had no sons of their own – and they were among the leaders in the whole confection industry.  They helped promote my merchandise – Bright's Brandied and Epicurean Foods – whenever people came to their businesses, and they were two of the top men in the nation.  They would promote my merchandise, because they liked me, and they liked my merchandise.                         I wasn't a believer, but at least one of the men, I know, was a believer.  The other one, I'm not sure of, but they helped me tremendously.  So, as a kid, in my early 20s, I was experiencing phenomenal success, and yet I can't say I was smart, I was brilliant, I did this, I did that – God arranges all these things, and I was able to succeed in the measure I did because of many factors.                         So anyone who is wealthy would have to say, if he thinks clearly, "I had a lot of help from God working through people," and I look back on my own business career; I have to say God orchestrated all these many wonderful things preparing me for the day when I'd be born into His family, and He could show me a whole new way of life. Dennis:          Bill, you're still highly motivated, even at 81 years of age.  You're on oxygen 24 hours a day; your lungs are only working at about 40 percent of capacity – what gets you out of bed in the morning? Bill:                  Well, my love for Jesus.  You know, people ask me "What's the most important thing we could pray for you?"  And I always respond, "Pray that I will never leave my first love."  Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and, of course, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies.  So my love for Him and my desire to please Him, to obey Him, He is my Master, my Lord, and I can't think of any activity in which I could be engaged that is more important than pleasing Him. And, of course, I say all that, including my precious wife.  She is the joy and delight of my heart.  We've been married over 54 years and all I can do is thank God at what an incredible, wonderful, fantastic wife He has given me – and lover and partner and friend in Vonette, and I encourage every man out there who wants to live a fruitful, wonderful life, to love your wife as Christ loved the church, even if you do it for selfish reasons, and you can't really do it for selfish reasons, because loving your wife has to be supernatural with His enabling, but if you don't have a happy wife, you're not going to have a happy heart.  And you need to give attention to your dear, beloved, precious spouse, who is a gift of God until death do us part, and don't ever think of divorce as a way out.  You find someone as God has led you to be married, or if He should lead you in the future to be married, remember, obey the Word of God; love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it – and sacrificial living. Dennis:          Bill, Bob and I – and I'm taking our average age together here, because Bob's about to correct me out of this, but we're approximately 30 years behind you in the race. Bob:                I'm a little farther behind than Dennis.  I'd just like to make that clear. Dennis:          And it's not that I'm that much older, Bill, than he is … Bill:                  … maybe a couple of days. Dennis:          Yeah, a couple of days, a couple of days older than Bob – certainly not more mature, though.  But what advice would you have for a man who wants to finish well?  I mean, if God grants strength and favor, Bob and I will live another 30 years.  What exhortation would you give us, as men, and just to men in terms of how they run the race and end up at the finish line like you are, still sprinting at the end? Bill:                  Well, you remember, Paul writes to Timothy – chapter 4, verses 7 and 8 – "I've fought a good fight, I've finished the race, and I've been faithful."  I would say the number-one priority – love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and that requires time in the Word.  You can't live a godly life unless you're taking God's Word in your daily moment by moment.  Communicate with God in prayer.  Prayer is like breathing.  We pray and talk to Him.  So love Him, trust Him, obey Him, and in order to all this, you have to know who He is. So if you have a superficial view of God, you need to begin to study the attributes of God.  That's the reason I wrote the book, "God:  Discover His Character," three or four years ago, because the average person has a superficial view of God, and you can't love someone you don't know; you can't trust someone you don't know; you can't obey someone you don't know.  So the most important thing is to find out who God is, discover his character, and just love, trust, and obey Him. Bob:                You see what Dennis has got in his hand there, don't you? Bill:                  I just happened to see that. Dennis:          I have a card that, Bill, you discovered the power of lamination before Bob did, but you laminated a card here that is entitled the name of your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  And on this card, on the front and back, are listed different attributes of God. Bill:                  Thirteen attributes. Dennis:          Thirteen attributes, and I'm not going to ask you to name all 13, although I'm confident you could do it. Bill:                  I memorized and meditate on them almost every day and night.  I wake up in the middle of the night and while I'm going back to sleep, I will run through different ones and just praise the Lord for who He is. Dennis:          Well, what I want you to do, and I was going to ask you this question, anyway, but you've taken me there – out of these 13 what three are the most meaningful? Bill:                  They're all important.  I can't … Dennis:          … I know they're all important, and I knew you were going to say that, but as you have meditated and have gotten to know God, and as He has revealed Himself to you, could you name three that are closest to you in your walk. Bill:                  I wouldn't say three are more important than the rest, but God is sovereign.  He rules in the affairs of men and nations.  He controls everything.  We think we're smart, and we're really dummies compared to Him.  After all, look at – study the human eyeball or the corpuscle, or anything about any of His creation, and you realize we're just dummies.  So He is sovereign.  He lifts up, and He puts down.  And then He is love. Dennis:          I'm going to stop you there, because I want to read what you wrote on the card – "Because God is sovereign, that's who He is, I will joyfully submit to His will." Bill:                  Yes. Dennis:          So it's more than just an intellectual realization that there is One who rules absolutely. Bill:                  I put the word "joyfully" in there especially, because it's not just kind of a duty.  God is sovereign, so I'm going to be – I'm just going to resign myself to the fact that He is in charge, and it's going to be a boring drudgery.  No, God is in charge, and it's a joyful journey to know that He's in charge.  If I didn't know He was in charge, now I'm breathing on oxygen for the last couple of years – I would probably be kind of anxious at times.  But God is in charge.  Nothing happened.  You know, you read Acts 4 – "Nothing happens to you and me that is not with His approval."  Satan has no power over us except that which God allows.  Everything is filtered through His love.                          You have cancer, you have a heart attack, you have a stroke, you have financial problems – what do you do about it?  Well, Paul writes, "Rejoice."  James writes, "Rejoice.  In all things give thanks."  Well, you know, one of the greatest lessons I've ever learned, which I learned maybe 40 years or so ago is that all things – give thanks.  Rejoice in adversity as well as blessings. Dennis:          And you can do that because you know there is One. Bill:                  I know there is a sovereign God.  He rules in the affairs, and when I say thank you, even through my tears I'm demonstrating faith, and the scripture says without faith it's impossible to please God.  That which is not of faith is sin.  The judged shall live by faith.  So I'm saying, when I praise God that I'm wearing this tube, breathing oxygen, I'm praising God out of a joyful heart not out of resignation, and then, of course, the love – God's love for me is unconditional.  Because God is love, he is unconditionally committed to my well-being and, you know, you could spend an hour talking about the love of God.  Nothing can separate us from the love of God, no matter how even we sin and grieve Him, His love reaches out to us.                         Which brings me to the third attribute, and I hate to leave out any of those 13, and, of course, there are many others – is mercy – because of His mercy.  If I confess my sins, He is always faithful and just to forgive me of my sins, because of His mercy. Dennis:          Right.  Bill, you mentioned your book, "God:  Discover the Benefits of His Attributes."  I've lost count of how many books you've written … Bill:                  … about a hundred … Dennis:          … you're writing them faster than I can read them.  It's over 100 books? Bill:                  Over 100 books and booklets. Dennis:          Okay. Bill:                  And thousands of articles. Dennis:          Bob gets onto me for asking these questions, but I'm going to ask you – do you have a favorite? Bill:                  I would say probably the best book I've ever written is "God:  Discover His Character," because it deals with the attributes of God, and you – you know, I've written on the Ten Commandment, living supernaturally in Christ … Dennis:          … you've written about the person of Jesus Christ … Bill:                  … the person of Jesus, prayer, on and on and on, but getting to know God, His marvelous attributes, you realize everything else falls into place. Bob:                Well, again, today we've been listening to Dr. Bill Bright, founder and past president of Campus Crusade for Christ rehearsing the attributes of God, which is a healthy exercise for all of us all the time, isn't it? Dennis:          It is, and if there's anything I've learned from Bill Bright is that we need to not only talk about God and what He's doing in our lives, but we need to know Him, and we need to continue to pursue Him to get to know Him and a part of that comes, Bob, as we understand the qualities that we use as human beings to describe little facets of God's character, and I do think, and I agree with Bill, this is the greatest book, this book on the character of God that Bill Bright wrote.  This is his greatest book he's ever written. Bob:                The book is called, "God:  Discover His Character," and we have it available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  This is a book that is great for private devotions, it's a book that parents can use in family time with the children to help introduce the children to the greatness of our God.  If you'd like to get a copy, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can request a copy online at FamilyLife.com.  Again, the title is "God:  Discover His Character," by Dr. Bill Bright.                         When you get in touch with us, you may also want to request either cassettes or CDs of our complete interview with Dr. Bill Bright.  We have only been able to feature portions of it here on FamilyLife Today, but if you'd like to hear the entire conversation, you can ask about those tapes or about CD copies of the interviews when you contact us again, at 1-800-FLTODAY or, if you'd like to, you can order online at FamilyLife.com.                         I was thinking about Dr. Bright's book, and I was thinking about our mission at FamilyLife to effectively develop godly families who change the world one home at a time.  If we're going to succeed in that mission of developing godly families, then we have to make sure that our families know the God we want to reflect in our own character and in our own lives, and FamilyLife is committed to that spiritual agenda. We want husbands and wives and moms and dads to be centered on the priority of God's Word in your marriage and in your family.  We are joined in that agenda by a whole lot of folks around the country who are FamilyLife Champions or Legacy Partners – in fact, some brand-new Legacy Partners who just joined with us here in the last few weeks, and it's nice to have you folks on board with us.  A Legacy Partner is somebody who, on a monthly basis, makes a contribution to our ministry. We often will hear from those Legacy Partners, Dennis, who write to us and ask us to pray for them.  In fact, I just saw that we've gotten a note from a 69-year-old grandmother in South Dakota who is raising two boys – she's raising a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old, and I don't know the circumstances that have her raising those young men, but she said, "Please pray for me.  I need strength and patience."  And we do take those requests for prayer seriously, and our team joins in praying for folks who write to us with those kinds of requests. If you'd like to find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner and joining with us financially or if you'd like to write to us with a prayer request, our mailing address is FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.  You can also get in touch with us by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  You can donate over the phone or you can make an online donation at our website at FamilyLife.com. Well, tomorrow we will hear the concluding portion of our conversation held recently with Dr. Bill Bright, the past president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ.  I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.   We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Breaking into History Guest:                        Sally Lloyd-Jones                  From the series:       Telling Stories to Children (Day 1 of 2)      Bob: One of the challenges that families often face during the Christmas season is how to or even whether to blend in the holiday traditions with the biblical story of Christmas. Here's some thoughts from author, Sally Lloyd-Jones.  Sally: You know, I became a Christian when I was four. I am sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. I suppose the excitement of: “He's coming!” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas. It's exciting; because your rescuer is coming, which is much more exciting than “Santa's coming with presents.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, December 7th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Sally Lloyd-Jones joins us today to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of the Christmas season. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  Dennis: How's your English accent, Bob? [Laughter] Bob: Terrible. [Laughter] Dennis: You have a great impersonation of Jerry Falwell.  Bob: Yes; but— Dennis: Can I hear your Sally Lloyd-Jones? [Laughter] Bob: I'm not that clever! [Laughter] No; mine would be [speaking with English accent]:  Look at her, a person of the gutters, Condemned by every syllable she utters. By right, she ought to be taken out and hung For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue! Sally: That's brilliant. Bob: Thank you. Barbara: I know that one. Bob: Do you? Barbara: I watched that over, and over, and over. Bob: That's Henry Higgins. Don't you know Henry Higgins? Sally: Of course! I was just testing. [Laughter] Bob: If you could have anybody come to your house and tell the Christmas story to your kids at Christmas time, who would—wouldn't you want Sally Lloyd-Jones coming and telling the Christmas story to your kids? Dennis: I think a wonderful story I'd love to hear—just to hear George tell the Christmas story. Barbara: Oh, A Wonderful Life! [Laughter]  Bob: George Bailey? Dennis: Yes! Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Help me, Clarence. Help me! [Laughter] Get me out of here!”  Sally: He's very good; isn't he?  2:00 Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Get me back to my wife and kids!” Sally: You love films, I guess. Bob: I do; I do. Dennis: When it's Christmas time—this happens to Bob every 11 months—so just put up with it if you would. [Laughter] I just introduced, very casually there, Sally Lloyd-Jones, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City. She is the New York Times author of a bestselling book—one of them she has written is called The Jesus Storybook Bible. Bob: I think everybody listening to FamilyLife Today has The Jesus Storybook Bible—feels like. How many copies? Sally: Two point five million. Barbara: Then I think you're right—it is everybody. Bob: Everybody I run into— Barbara: I have one, and I don't have children at home. I have mine marked—I love it! [Laughter] Sally: Oh. The most exciting thing to me is its now in 34 languages. Bob: Oh, that's wonderful. Dennis: That's cool! Barbara: Wow! Dennis: What's your favorite language out of those 34?  3:00 Sally: Well, I'm really excited about Arabic—it's just been translated into Arabic. What I love to say is, “I wrote a book I can't read,”—[Laughter]—actually, three of them! Dennis: And is it in Mandarin? Sally: I think it is. Bob: That's great! Dennis: That reaches a few people too.  Also joining us is my wife Barbara. Tell them about Sally's book that we're also talking about this Christmas. Barbara: We're talking about this book that she wrote for children for Christmas: Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story. I just think it's a great idea to have books to read to your kids during the different seasons, because we have all these traditions that we do. I remember when we were raising our kids—there were certain books that we read, every season, that were favorites. I think this one will become a favorite of many families to read, year after year, with your children.  Bob: We had, in our library at home, it was called The Holiday Story Book. There were stories for every holiday of the year. So you'd open it and read one for Valentine's Day or whatever. I never read any of them except the Christmas one. I remember it was a story of a car in an old car lot that was sitting there.  4:00 Nobody wanted to buy this old car—it was a clunker and barely ran. Apparently, as I remember it, Santa's sleigh malfunctioned right over the car lot; and he had to hook up the reindeer to the car.  Sally: That's very good. Bob: All of a sudden, this old clunker of a car became Santa's sleigh for the holidays. There was something about reading it that was kind of my Christmas rituals to get me ready for the holidays.  Barbara: It had a bit of a redemption story to it—that's why it rang true. Bob: There is something about story, at Christmastime, and the opportunity for parents to engage with their children around the Christmas story, that is meaningful on a whole variety of levels; isn't it?  Sally: Yes; I love that tradition—like Barbara said. We love traditions; don't we? Dennis: Yes. Sally: I love—you know, that we have several days before Christmas to get ready for Christmas. You have lots of opportunities. Dennis: So how will you spend Christmas in New York City? Sally: Well, the thing is—I end up in England, really—so I never have been in New York on Christmas day. Dennis: Oh, New York City is delightful that time of year! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I mean, Barbara and I have been there. There is definitely a nip in the air. That city is— Sally: Oh, it's magical. 5:00 Barbara: It is magical. Dennis: It's dressed up—it is really dressed up. Sally: And again, talk about traditions—you have The Nutcracker you can go to every year.  Dennis: Yes. Sally: You know, The Messiah— Dennis: Yes. Sally: —all these lovely things.  In England, one of the traditions that's one of my favorites is Kings College Choir carols on Christmas Eve. Barbara: That would be wonderful. Sally: It's broadcast on the radio. Apparently, it's been broadcast since like, I think, the war—or even before. One of the stories I love is that—it's a boy choir / a male voice choir. They have little boys who might be six/seven. The whole broadcast begins with Once in Royal David's City; but the first verse is sung so low by one of the youngest boys. So they don't get completely freaked out—the choir master chooses three boys and trains them. Just like maybe seconds before the broadcast begins, he taps the boy that he's chosen on the head and he sings it; and he has no chance to get nervous. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you kidding me?! All three of them will get nervous! [Laughter] Sally: Yes; right! [Laughter] But it's so beautiful—that voice—the pure voice of a young boy singing Once in Royal David's City and the acoustics—to me, that's one of the high points of Christmas. 6:00 Dennis: So what do you do in England for Christmas? Tell us how you celebrate. Sally: You know, we do have the edge on everyone; because we know how to do Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: What's that?! Barbara: What is that edge? Yes; I want to know. Sally: Because we have Christmas pudding—figgy pudding as Dickens would call it.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: Hold it; hold it! What's that made of?—Christmas pudding? Sally: It's sounds horrid, but it's delicious. I'm going to describe it, but you have to realize it's delicious. Bob: Okay. Sally: It's got currents, raisins—see, your faces already— Barbara: No; so far, so good—I love currents and raisins. Dennis: Yes.  Sally: It's got some liquor in it, but it gets burned away. [Laughter] Dennis: This is why the English like it!! [Laughter] Sally: And you have it with brandy butter. Oh, yes, there's a lot of liquor in it. [Laughter] Dennis: You've got brandy in it! Sally: Is this allowed on your program? Dennis: That's what you have to do with your food in England. [Laughter] 7:00 Sally: It's a merry Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: I'm sorry—I'm really sorry for that. We've been to England and your food—you got to cross the—  Barbara: —the Channel. Dennis: —the English Channel— Sally: But then, we also wear hats at Christmas—crowns / the paper crowns that come out of Christmas crackers. Now, you're really lost; aren't you? Christmas crackers—I don't even know how to describe them. Barbara: I know what they are. Sally: You pull them, and they bang, and inside is a hat and a present. Then, we drop everything at 3:00—we go and listen to the Queen's speech— Bob: On Christmas Day? Sally: —on Christmas Day. So, wherever you are with your Christmas meal, you stop everything—go and watch the Queen give a speech. She gives this incredible speech. You know, you have to really be reverent. Sometimes, the grandchildren are doing terribly naughty things, and my mother gives them a look. We all have to stand up when the anthem happens. This has happened—  Barbara: —forever. Sally: —forever and ever. Barbara: How long does— Dennis: What does she speak on? I mean— Barbara: That's what I want to know. How long—  Sally: She's amazing, actually. I mean, I'm a huge fan. If you think about how faithful she has been for how long—  Dennis: Oh, yes. Sally: Her whole idea about duty versus—you know—of course, I am a big fan of The Crown. Did you watch The Crown?   Barbara: Oh, yes, we did. It was wonderful. Sally: I'm sorry; I'm going all over the place. Dennis: Oh, yes; we did. That was very good. 8:00 Barbara: We thought it was— Sally: I'm mad on it, because you really believe Claire Foy is Queen.  Dennis: You're mad about it? Sally: Mad, in a British way, is— Barbara: —is crazy! Sally: —crazy. Dennis: I knew what you said! [Laughter] Bob: Here's my question for you— Sally: They are very naughty, these people! [Laughter]  Bob: I want to know, if we could invite you over to everybody's house to tell the Christmas story to our kids and grandkids, would you just pull out your book and read it to them?—or how would you engage a child in the story / the biblical story of Christmas if you were sitting down with them? 9:00 Sally: Well, I like, sometimes, to say, “When does Christmas begin?” and get them to sort of—it's always good to ask them a question; because what you want to do is get them—as they say, you're tuning your audience. Sometimes, I'll resort to pantomime effects—so you'll say/ask them a question; and they'll answer. You say: “I am sorry I can't hear you. Could you say it louder?”—until they are shouting. Then, if you've got parents there as well, you set up parents against the children. That way you have them where you want them.  And then I would say to them, “So, when do you think Christmas begins?” and they'll tell you, “When the star goes in the sky,” “When Jesus is born,” “When…”—whatever they're going to say. Hopefully, they won't / none of them will say: “Actually, it begins even before there were stars in the sky / it begins even before there was anything. Before anything was there, God had a dream in His heart; and Christmas began in that dream,” and start there, because it's not expected.                                                                     I always think the most important thing is to set up the longing and expectation, so that when Christmas day comes, we don't just go, “Oh, it's any old day.” We get the sense that God's people were waiting, for thousands of years, for this and that this was a promise fulfilled. It's not just a sweet story—it's the most incredible thing about God breaking into history. 10:00 Bob: When you think about communicating biblical truth to kids, you want to make sure that the story is in a very broad context, not just an isolated story. Why is that? Sally: I find that's how my heart gets got. If I see it in the big scope / if I see that none of this is just happenstance—it's all a plan and that it started with God's—just the idea that God was planning to bless us before He made us, and He knew it would all go wrong; but He still made us—that's what melts my heart. I think that's the truth in the Bible; isn't it? If you just take one story at a time, they're wonderful; but it's when you see them in the context of the big story and you see that it's a love story, that's when your heart gets changed. Dennis: When you were a little girl, do you remember the time when Christmas, the story of Christmas, grabbed your heart and captured your imagination? Sally: I don't know if I remember exactly that. I knew I loved Christmas and I loved the fact that I knew Jesus was my best friend always, ever since I was four. 11:00 Dennis: You didn't just celebrate Christmas in England, at that point; you went back to— Sally: We were in Africa. Dennis: —Africa. Sally: So, we were having—I don't know if we were still doing hats, and eating Christmas pudding, and all that stuff. We probably went to the beach. I think that's what we did on Christmas Day. Dennis: So what country? Sally: Uganda. First of all, Kampala; and then we moved to Nairobi and Kenya. So, Christmas, for me, was amidst wild animals and jungles, and that kind of—savannahs and stuff— Bob: In a tropical climate, not where there's snow falling. Sally: No. And I do remember—actually, the first thing I do remember, when I came to England, was the first time I saw snow. I thought it was ice cream coming down. [Laughter] Barbara: And you were how old? Sally: I was probably six. Barbara: Oh, amazing. Bob: So, did the biblical story of Christmas compete in your heart with the traditions of Christmas?—with St. Nicholas, with Santa Claus, with all of that? Sally: Yes; I mean, Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little.  12:00 And you know, I became a Christian when I was four; so I'm sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. But there's something—I know there are big debates about whether you should have Santa Claus. I didn't find it harmful at all. I never thought anything other than it was—I mean, I remember being devastated when I found out he wasn't real; but I soon got over it.  Bob: So you were able to separate that that was fantasy and that the biblical story was history. Sally: Yes; yes. I didn't find that confusing. Bob: Why do you think that was clear to you? Sally: Because I suppose—I'd met Jesus and I knew He was my best friend—I wouldn't want it any other way. There was something lovely about it—you know, the whole excitement. I suppose the excitement of, “He's coming,” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas—it's exciting because your rescue is coming, which is much more exciting than, “Santa's coming with presents.” Dennis: And He's coming back! Sally: Yes; yes! Dennis: Not just His first advent— Sally: Exactly. Dennis: —but because the first Christmas occurred, we can look forward to His second advent. 13:00 Sally: Yes; and that is deep in us; isn't it?—that longing for Him to come. Dennis: It really is. Tell us how this book, A Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story, how it captures Christmas to young people. Sally: Well, it's interesting; because that one came because—as I was saying, I was in Africa as a little one. You know, my Christmas was in the wilds of Africa, and there's no snow on the rooftops; but Christmas was coming. I was thinking—we know the story of Bethlehem and how it's so busy and no one noticed Jesus and Mary and Joseph—but I was thinking about the animals and back to my childhood in Africa. I was thinking, “What if the animals knew, and the stars knew, and all the…” because they don't have an argument with their Maker. We're the only ones who have an argument with our Maker. Dennis: [Laughter] That's exactly right. Sally: And they're suffering; aren't they?  Barbara: Right; because of us. Sally: They're suffering because of our sin and the fall, but why wouldn't they have known?  14:00 So I thought, “Well, what if,”—and again, going back to that longing of, “He's coming,”—I thought, “What if, that night, people didn't know because they were too busy; but what if the animals did?”—that's where this book came from. There's a refrain: “It's time. It's time. At last, He's coming!” Barbara: I love that. Bob: Barbara, did you have a hard time, when your kids were little, with the competition between the cultural trappings of Christmas and the spiritual message of Christmas? Barbara: I don't know that we had a hard time as much as we just did—we were very intentional about teaching what Christmas was about. We wanted our kids to understand that it was about Jesus and it was about His birth. We made putting the manger scene up sort of the focal point; but we didn't dismiss Santa, and stockings, and things; because it was fun to pretend and do make-believe. We did all of that; but it was secondary to the real reason for Christmas so that, when our kids found out, I don't think they were devastated. Sally: What was central was the truth. 15:00 Barbara: Right, and I remember being disappointed, when I was a child, finding out that Santa wasn't real; but I don't think our kids were disappointed. I think they always knew that this story about Jesus was what it was really about. This [Santa] was just play—this was fun / this was pretend, and we all enjoyed it—but that wasn't the real message. Dennis: My recollection of Christmas was sprinting to the end, and putting together— Barbara: You mean, as parents?—talking about— Dennis: Yes, as parents. Yes; I just remember getting everything ready—the swing set that I was putting up, in the dark, on Christmas Eve— Bob: You can't get it out and start putting it up until the kids are in bed; right? Barbara: Right; right. Dennis: You can't. And if I had it to do all over again, I think I'd have taken a deep breath; and I think I would have just been more in the moment and not been so frantic about trying to turn the entire Christmas day, especially Christmas morning, into this life-altering seismic experience for our kids. [Laughter] Bob: —a production. Barbara: Yes. 16:00 Dennis: And put a little more effort into enjoying them in the process and celebrating, as Sally is talking about, the real reason for Christmas—celebrating His coming. Bob: A lot of parents will get out their Bible and turn to Luke 2, and they'll read the familiar account of the shepherds, and maybe go to Matthew and read about the wise men; and they will wonder, having read that to their kids: “Did any of that sink in? Did I just read something that their eyes glazed over?” If they want this story to really come alive for their kids, and they're not Sally Lloyd-Jones, what do they do? Sally: Well, they know their children best. I'm just covering all my bases and saying, as a story-teller, what I would do is include all the days leading up to Christmas. Don't rely on just Christmas; because one of the things I think is fun to do is set up a nativity—but don't have Jesus in the nativity, and don't have the shepherds, and don't have the wise men—start introducing them. You know, you could talk about: “There were some shepherds, and they're looking after their sheep. Where shall they be in the house?”— 17:00 —and put them somewhere in the house / same with the wise men. The fun thing about the wise men is—you can have them coming closer and closer to the nativity, every day you move them, until they arrive at the nativity on the—you know— Bob: —on Christmas; yes. Sally: Yes; so you can—I think it's making it interactive and, certainly, not making it a lesson. I think that's my—I would say that: “Don't make it into a lesson. Enjoy the story, because the story is so powerful.” And there are lots of resources. You don't have to—I mean, obviously, reading the biblical account is wonderful; and then read other ways to look at it so that you come at it from different angles. There are all kinds of— Dennis: Yes; that's what I was thinking about. Your book, Song of the Stars, fits in with what Barbara has created for this Christmas—the names of Christ Adorenaments® in stars / His eternal names. Barbara: Well, my dream has been to create something that would help families teach their children who Jesus is, because Christmas is about Jesus. And so I've created this set of ornaments—that each one is a different name of Jesus.  18:00 This year, it is stars; and I've written a piece about following the star—that's what the wise men did. I think—you know, to hitchhike off what we were just saying / you said a few minutes ago—that asking questions is the way to prime your audience. I think, for parents—whether you're hanging the ornaments on the tree about Jesus and His names or whether you're reading the book—the more you can engage with your kids and ask them questions: “Why do you think it's important that we know that Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star?” “What do you think the wise men were thinking when they traveled? How long did it take them to get here?”—make it be something that engages their imagination and their thinking. They are much more likely to, not just remember the story, but want to hear it again; because it was intriguing. Bob: I'd just say, “If you'll sit quiet and listen, we'll have figgy pudding when it's over; okay?” [Laughter] Sally: And they'll run a mile! [Laughter] The other thing I think I've— Dennis: Forget the figgy pudding; let's have some of this British pudding! [Laughter] I thought it was Christmas pudding! Sally: Are you not paying attention, Dennis? 19:00 Dennis: I thought you said Christmas pudding. Sally: Well, no— Barbara: She did say Christmas pudding. Sally: They're both one and the same. Dennis: Oh really?! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I didn't catch that! Sally: Dickens had figgy pudding. Bob: [Singing] “Now bring us our figgy pudding, now bring us our figgy pudding”— Sally: Yes! Dennis: I didn't equate that with Christmas pudding that she described that had all the liquor in it. Sally: I'm sorry about this figgy pudding; it's really bringing the show down. [Laughter]  I was going to mention another great idea, I think, that I've seen people do is—like with Song of the Stars for instance—I'll give that as an example. I do the same thing—I talk about, you know: “The sheep knew,” “The lambs knew, and the Great Shepherd.” So, you could take one day—the Great Shepherd—and then put some beautiful Christmas music on and have your children draw sheep or just spend some time together focusing on sheep. Then, another day, you could talk about the lion knew He was coming—the Lion of Judah. So then, you could draw lions and put on more music.  20:00 I think the more you can engage the different senses and have them creating their own art—and those could become Advent calendars / they could become ornaments— Barbara: I agree. Bob: Trust me, those are things that, 20 years from now, you'll pull out of a file and just delight over. Sally: Yes! Barbara: Absolutely; absolutely. Bob: In fact— Dennis: And in fact, the kids will be fighting over them. Bob: Well, just recently—when our kids were young, our son, David, had a little bit of a flair for art. When he was ten, he did our Christmas card—it was his drawing of the nativity that we sent out as our Christmas card that year—same as when he was eleven.  Well, David's married now. His wife just saw the Christmas cards and she said, “I want those!” And we're going: “No; those belong to Mom and Dad. [Laughter] You have to get him to draw you some new ones.” [Laughter] But it is that kind of a delightful recollection of what Christmas was about, as a child, that you'll look forward to years from now. Sally: Yes. Dennis: Well, regardless—this Christmas, enjoy the moment. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Celebrate the Savior and don't miss the reason for the season. 21:00 Bob: And Sally is not able to come to your home, but her books are; and of course, we have her books in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center—the Christmas story, Song of the Stars; her book, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm for children; and then, of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. Find out more about what's available to read to your children when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. And while you're there, look at the resources Barbara has been developing for families at Christmas as well, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that talk about the eternal names of Jesus. Again, it's all available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to order by phone: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, as we're now a few weeks away from the end of 2017, we've started to look back at how God has been at work through the ministry of FamilyLife Today in the last 12 months:  22:00 Dennis wrote a book called Choosing a Life that Matters that was released earlier this year; we've seen more people attending Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways; we've added new cities, and the average attendance is up at our events. There is more hunger than ever for practical biblical help and hope for marriage and family. We've seen more people coming to FamilyLifeToday.com, our website, getting easier access to articles, and audio, and video—they're getting the help they need when they access our content. And of course, our listeners—we're hearing from new folks, every week, who are listening to FamilyLife Today and telling us how God is using this ministry in profound ways in their marriage and in their family. We're grateful for all that God is doing through this ministry, and all of it has been enabled by a relatively small number of listeners—those of you who believe in the mission of this ministry and who want to see it expanded—want to see more people in your community and around the world helped.  23:00 We're grateful for the partnership that we have with listeners, like you, who help support the ministry of FamilyLife®. Of course, right now, as we're approaching the end of 2017, this is a particularly good time to think about making a donation. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here to explain why. Hello, Michelle. Michelle: Hey Bob, yes it is a good time to donate, which is what John from Los Altos California did…John called and took advantage of the matching fund?... and his donation was matched dollar for dollar...the reason it's a good time Bob is that the matching is going to continue during December, up to a total of two million dollars! So a big thanks to folks like John and Diane and Leona and almost thirteen hundred other folks who've called and given over two hundred sixty five thousand dollars so far…we really appreciate you! Thanks Bob…see you tomorrow 24:00 Bob: And it is easy to join us. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can call to donate—1-800-FL-TODAY—or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and the zip code is 72223. Thank you for the update, Michelle; and we'll see you back tomorrow. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow as well. Sally Lloyd-Jones will be with us again, and we're going to continue to talk about how moms and dads can connect with their kids around biblical truth. I hope you can be with us for that conversation.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. For Better or For Worse Guest:                        John & Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: More than a decade and a half ago, John Bishop was experiencing headaches that took him to the hospital.  He was diagnosed with meningitis, and then a month later, unexpectedly, his memory was gone.  What happens to a person, to a marriage and a family, when everything about the past has been erased?  John Bishop says you have to start back at the beginning, learning to walk, to talk, learning to love. John: When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I Donna, we're married."  I said, "Married?  Married?"  And she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I look at her, I say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That what I call her ever since – "My Donna."  It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 5th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What would happen to your marriage if, all of a sudden, you were starting from scratch? John: I tell people she taught me everything I know.  Every woman dream come true – her husband forget it all, and she get teach him.   [laughter]  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  In our years of interviewing folks, we've met a number of couples and heard some remarkable love stories, but the story our listeners are hearing this week is an all-time classic, isn't it? Dennis: It may be the best.  I mean, we've heard some great ones here, but we wanted to bring this story to you, as a listener.  John and Donna were married in 1974.  They had three sons.  He was an evangelist for a number of years, pastored a church, had a ranch for young people that he helped staff and give leadership to. Bob: It was back in 1995, though, that he was diagnosed with aseptic meningitis and had to be hospitalized, and normally you recover from aseptic meningitis and life goes on. Dennis: But what happened was, it was like someone erased the chalkboard.  All the memory, all of his understanding of all the basics of life were gone because of this disease. Bob: This is a month after he's had his meningitis that he loses his complete memory.  He doesn't know that he's married, he doesn't know what marriage is, he doesn't know how to talk, he doesn't know how to eat. Dennis: He doesn't know who God is. Bob: It's like starting from scratch and, obviously, that leads to an incredible stress on a marriage, on a family.  I mean, what do you do from there, right? Dennis: It's one thing, Bob, to have a life-threatening illness and live through that valley, but the story you're going to hear is all about how they picked up and began to live life on a daily basis. Bob: Donna, it's almost like when you brought John home from the hospital, you were bringing home a newborn baby who had some adult-level functionality but some very baby-like qualities.  Was he ever like a bad boy?  When he was home from the hospital, were there ever times when you thought, "I'm going to have to" … Dennis: Let's put it the way it is, Bob – did he ever pitch a fit? Bob: Or a tantrum? John: I can answer that – yes. Bob: Did he go through the terrible twos with you? [laughter]  Donna: Yes, he would – especially when it came to eating.  He wanted to eat his dessert first.  "Why do I have to" – you know, he was always asking questions, why he has to do this and do that, and it was funny, one time I came home, and he was trying to help me, so he was washing the dishes.  When he washed the dishes, he broke a plate or a glass or something, and so he hid it in the trash, buried it in the bottom of the trash so I wouldn't know that he broke a plate. So, you know, he was hiding things from me and sneaking around behind me when he was doing things he thought I didn't want him to do. Bob: Now, here's your husband. John: [laughing] Yes … Bob: … acting this way, and you feel like you have to paddle him, spank him, for how he's behaving?  How do you handle that, as a wife, when … Donna: I'd be glad to spank him. [laughter]  John: She never spanked me, but she had to get after me but, oh, she has been so patient. Bob: When did you – when did it dawn on you that you had a sin nature – that deep inside of you is this rebellion that you want to be selfish, and you want things the way you want them.  When did that register for you? John: Once I began listening to the Bible on tape, I – for instance, Bob, I can remember first lie I told, and at least after the illness.  In the hospital the nurses had asked me if I had taken something, and it was something I didn't like, and so I had thrown it away, and I told her I had taken it.  Now, I didn't know what a lie was, but I felt guilty.  But later on I learned what lying was. Dennis: I'm sitting here thinking when you hid the plate – that also had to result in some guilt. John: Yes, mm-hm. Dennis: So here is God convicting you of your need for forgiveness, your need for Savior.  And yet you've already made that commitment as a young lad growing up.  You don't happen to have that sheet of paper do you? Bob: The page in your Bible that shares your testimony? John: No, I didn't bring it.  I sorry, I didn't bring it with me. Dennis: Basically, what does that sheet of paper say? John: Well, it tells about that Saturday night in September.  I was brought up in Bristol, Tennessee, over in east Tennessee, and there was a citywide crusade, and the preacher was C.E. Autry.  He is with the Lord now.  As a matter of fact, I've got a book.  I have his name down.  I can even tell you the song they sang that night.  On my testimony CD I have some people sing it – "It is no Secret What God Can Do." [music – "It Is No Secret What God Can Do"] Evidently, that song meant a lot to me, and so I even put that down – they sang that song that night.  I was a 15-year-old teenage boy and lost home, and Mama was telling me that none of the family was saved at this point.  And I even wrote that I brought a Gospel tract home from the stadium, the Tennessee High football stadium, it's still there, and with John 3:16 on it, I can tell you it was a Saturday night that September, I got on my knees, and I put my name where "whosoever was" – "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him," and I put my name – "whosoever" there – "should not perish but have everlasting life."  I know all those details but can't remember a bit of it, but I wrote it there, and I'm just so glad that I received the Lord as a teenager. And then Mama said I surrendered to the call to preach, and preached my first sermon a month after my salvation, and I've been preaching ever since.  The Lord has just helped me and, matter of fact, she said able to be interim pastor of a little country church when a senior in high school, and this is true now – it's Goose Pimple Junction, Virginia.  That's where it was – population 29, and so … Dennis: Hold it, hold it, Goose Pimple … John: Yes. Bob: Junction? John: Mm-hm, Virginia, and it is there.  You've been there, haven't you, Donna? Donna: Been there, yes, sir. [laughter]  Bob: Donna, did you ever have anyone come alongside you after the illness, while you were trying to care for raising your boys and care for John and say, "You know, there's a place he could stay where they'd take care of him, and you shouldn't have to bear this burden?"  Did you have folks suggest that to you? Donna: Yes, sir, I had somebody suggest that I could do that, you know, if I got tired and so forth, and I would get tired of taking care of him, but I thought about it.  I thought, you know, I could, but just go on.  I just was never tempted to do anything like that. Dennis: Now, what our listeners don't know is the length of time this story took.  I mean, we're not talking about 30 days in rehab back to John getting to normal.  John, give our listeners an idea here of the timeline we're talking about here. John: Well, for several weeks, Dennis, she had to do everything for me, and you know what I mean, I say everything.  I was like a baby.  This went on for weeks and weeks.  Like I say, it took me near two years to where I could walk, and I had to work at it, work at it, and so forth, but it was just incredible how good she was to me. I remember one day she finishing cleaning me up again, and I look at her, I say, "Donna, why so good to me?" And she said, "Well, two reasons."  And I said, "What that?"  "Well," she said, "one, I promise I would."  I said, "Promise?  I don't remember promise."  And she went and got our marriage vows, and she brought them, and she said, "John, we got married."  I said, "In sickness and health, better or worse," and I remember I said, "Donna, I am so sorry it this worse, but thank you keeping promise, thank you."  And then she said, "But second reason is" – and she gave me a big hug and says, "I love you."  And I got an award back a couple of years ago.  A college had asked me to come and they surprise me, they asked me give testimony, and they were giving me an award, and so I was so scared I was going to have to say something and right at last minute, and I thought, "What I going to say?"   And here is what I said – I got up, I said, "I'm going to take this award home to my Donna, and will get on my knees, put in her lap, and I'm going to say, 'Donna, if it wasn't for God and you, I wouldn't even be alive much less getting this."  So I said, "This yours."  I said, "One day I get to heaven, and I'm going to say 'God, why you been so good to me?' and I think God going to give me two reasons.  He going to say, "One, I promise I would," and He might remind me Roman 8:28, "All things work together good them love the Lord," and maybe say "John, I told you you love me, everything all right," and then I believe God going to give me a hug, and I believe God a good hugger, and He going to say, "But, John, main reason I love you," and I sure hope I have something put at His feet and say "Thank you, God."  But I can't describe how good she's been to me, and God and everybody been so good to me. Dennis: How does that make you feel, Donna?  I mean, I'm over here crying. Donna: I'm thankful that the Lord gave me the strength and that I was taught those valuable lessons that my family taught me and my church taught me when I was young, that it's worth it.  It's worth it in the end.  Don't ever bail.  Just stay with it, God will bless you. Dennis: For two years it took you to learn how to walk? Donna: To walk good, you know, without stumbling and up steps.  He has a real hard time with steps. Dennis: But even beyond that, John, you've suffered incredible headaches. John: Yes. Dennis: I mean, and just times of just feeling lousy. John: Yes. Dennis: And that's continued on for how long? John: All 12 years.  Immediately, because of the brain damage, I began having seizures, and I still have those.  But I gladly not quite as bad, and then cluster migraine headaches is what I have, and that's what actually caused my blindness.  They change nature, they're sort of what they call "ocular" cluster migraine.  But those have been big struggles for me, and I got very depressed, very discouraged.  I wish I tell you I got sick and just said, "Oh, everything be fine," and went on.  I didn't, Dennis.  I got very depressed and went through some very dark times, and I even prayed, "Lord, please take me home, please, because I hurt," and I felt burden for my Donna.  She never tell me I burden, but I felt that way, and depressed people do. And I got so depressed, I begged the Lord, "Please take me home, please."  I tell people when I talk audience, I said, "You never life seen person want to die and pray harder than man looking at," and then I say, "But now you never in your life want to see – ever seen anybody want to live more than man you're looking at."  God turned that around and helped me through those dark times.  But that was mainly because of the pain issues and the seizures. I called them issues instead of problems.  They just become problem if I let them, but I've had a lot of issues, you know, to go through, but the Lord's given me grace every time. Bob: You know, the name of your ministry … John: Yes? Bob: "God is so Good" Ministries. John: Yes. Bob: John, some of our listeners are going to hear this and say how can you, with all you've been through, testify to the goodness of God.  If God was good, why would He allow all of this to happen to you? John: Yes, and, you know, Bob, that was the struggle I was going through.  Those questions were going through my mind, and I needed to get hold of something, and the truth I got hold of, I was listening to Bible on tape, but I really loved the Book of Psalms because David been through some trials, too.  So I listened to it over, over, over.  Matter of fact, I wore that tape out and had to get another one.  And he kept saying, though, "The Lord is good."  He kept saying it, one psalm after other, other – "God is good."   And I'm not saying that all that God is – He is also holy, and He's just, and He's righteous, but the two things that stand out to me is He is good and He's right no matter what happens.  He's always good, and He's always right.  Our God put Himself through pain.  I am able to read now, Dennis, and I'm not smart enough to be able to know a lot of general information, so I focus my reading on people who are hurting, because that's my whole life now, is helping hurting people. The one thing I can tell people is nobody is hurt more than God.  When He gave His Son – they say one of the greatest pains a person can go through is the death of a child, but yet He let Him go through greatest pain anybody ever through because something better and – now, I don't have to know what all the better is, but I know I can trust this God because He let Himself hurt.  Jesus suffered more than any of us will ever know, and if God love His Son and let Him go through that because He knew something better for everybody, I'm going to trust Him that He got something better for me and everybody, too.  You can trust a God like that.  He's not like many other religions have gods that are above pain and above suffering.  Oh, God put Himself right in middle of it, and I can't always tell people I know how something feel unless I'd been through it, but I can tell them the Lord does because His Son went through the most incredible pain ever been and the reason we're here today is because He did. So I know good going to come from it because He's a good God. Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 2 of a conversation with John and Donna Bishop and, Dennis, as I was listening to John talk about responding to his own trials, his own pain, I thought of 2 Corinthians, chapter 1, where Paul says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of all mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted by God."  He is a living application of that verse.  Rather than being consumed by his own pain and suffering and saying, "Why me?"  He is comforting others in their affliction. Dennis: He is, and, you know, as we've talked here today, it just occurred to me – there are two groups of people that are listening to this broadcast.  One group, who is in the midst of suffering, and they're going through the valley right now, and they know exactly what John is talking about, and they have been comforted, as you've talked about.   But I want to remind that group of people where John's comfort came from, and to do that, I want to quote Dr. A.W. Tozer.  He said, "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  And the key to John's faith was he had the right thoughts about who God was.  He got them from the Scripture – that God is a good God.  No matter what happens to us, He is still good.  No matter what befalls those we love, God hasn't changed.  "The most important thing you think is what you think about God."  There's a second group, though, and it's a far larger number, I think, Bob, even though we have a ton of listeners who are hurting who listen to this broadcast, and it's the larger number who need to be reminded of what they promised.  They promised, "'Til death do us part," and they needed to hear this love story.  I needed to hear it.  Who doesn't need to hear of a compelling promise that two people have made to each other to go through such an incredible ordeal as what Donna and John Bishop went through. Maybe you just need to take your spouse's hand before the day is over, and you just say two things – "I promised" and "I love you," and that's a great place to begin to build a family. Bob: You know, I think about the listeners who, over the next couple of weeks, are going to be off on a trip somewhere, a vacation or headed somewhere in the car.  They ought to get a copy of this CD and listen to it together as they drive wherever it is they're going together.  In fact, if the whole family is along, this would be a great story for the whole family to listen to. We've got copies of the CD in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if our listeners would like to receive a copy, they can contact us online at FamilyLife.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY.  If you go online, when you get to the home page, on the right side of the screen, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast," click where it says "Learn More," and you can find out how to order a copy of the CD that features our complete conversation with John and Donna Bishop.  We've had to edit parts of it for time purposes here on FamilyLife Today. Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the CD with John and Donna Bishop.  Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329.  When you contact us someone on our team will make arrangements to have the CD sent out to you. You know, on Friday nights at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, Dennis, we talk about the inevitable difficulties that will come to every marriage.  Very few folks will receive the kind of trial that John and Donna have had to experience in their marriage, but all of us will experience challenges and trials in a marriage and in a family.  The question is – are we ready for those trials when they come?  Are we building the foundation of our relationship each day so that when a trial comes, we are ready to face it because we can stand strong together on our relationship with Jesus Christ. You and your wife, Barbara, wrote a book several months ago, a devotional book for couples called "Moments With You," that is designed for a husband and wife to read through together each day, to spend some time in prayer together, to look at a passage from the Scriptures each day, with the hope that those few minutes invested together will strengthen the foundation of your relationship.   And this week we're making copies of your devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," available to our listeners when they contact us with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We are listener-supported.  Those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and so we appreciate hearing from you. If you go online to make a donation at FamilyLife.com, and you'd like to receive a copy of the devotional book, "Moments With You," just type the word "You" in the keycode box that you see on the donation form, the word, y-o-u, and we'll make arrangements to have a copy of the book sent to you. If you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation over the phone, just request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," and, again, we're happy to send it out to you as a way of saying thank you for your partnership with us and for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  We appreciate you. Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear about how John and Donna Bishop can continue to call God good, even after all they've been through, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

A Biblical Look at Aging (Part 1) - Howard HendricksA Biblical Look at Aging (Part 2) - Howard HendricksFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Retirement is NOTDay 1 of 2 Guest:                           Dr. Howard Hendricks From the Series:         What Retirement is NOT________________________________________________________________ Bob:                There are challenges associated with moving into the retirement years.  Many of us have never thought that far ahead.  Here is Dr. Howard Hendricks. Howard:         Retirement has four major problems attached to it, the first of which is income – the financial component; the second of which is health – the physical component; the third of which is housing – your living arrangements; but the fourth and the most important is purpose, meaning, an interest in life.  And the fascinating thing to me, and all of the research proves it, is we're making tremendous progress in the first three, but substantially none in the fourth, because it's the least recognized, and it's the most neglected. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 18th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Have you started yet thinking about your purpose and your plan for your retirement years?  Stay tuned.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.  Whenever you hear that voice, whenever you hear Howard Hendricks' voice, you've just got to get a big grin on your face, don't you? Dennis:          I do, and the reason is he's one of those men who has marked my life over the past – well, I go back all the way to 1970 when I first started slipping into his class as a college student and then as a new staff member on Campus Crusade for Christ staff.  I'd slip in the back of the class at Dallas Seminary … Bob:                You mean you weren't enrolled or anything?  You just snuck in and listened to what he was … Dennis:          Shhhhhh – they'll probably want to charge me.  They got my tuition later on. Bob:                You enrolled, and you took – you said you majored in Hendricks. Dennis:          I majored in Hendricks and got everything he taught in one year, and, folks, if you have ever had a great teacher, you know that great teachers can really mark your life, whether it's a coach, a professor, a Sunday school teacher – they really can impact you.  And Dr. Howard Hendricks who was, for a number of years, the professor of Christian education at Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas – "Prof" as he was known – really is – he was the finest teacher I've ever sat under, but he was more than just a professor.  He was a man who understood how to motivate men and women. Bob:                Do you remember what it was the first time you heard him teach where you said, "I want to hear more?"  He's a compelling speaker, he's very winsome, but there must have been something about what he was saying or the way he was expressing himself that caused you to go, "This is a man I want to hear more from.  I want to learn and grow." Dennis:          He had the goods.  In all my years at Dallas Seminary, I took five classes from him – not a boring class.  Now, I want folks to think about that – that's a lot of classes.  He was on the edge; he had the message; his wife authenticated his message; and he knew how to challenge and motivate young men who sat in those classes back then; now, young ladies as well, are being motivated by him.                         But he became a good friend.  In fact, we were just laughing the other day when I did a conference with him, and it's one of the great honors of my 34 years of ministry to have teamed up with him now on a couple of occasions for some conferences for Dallas Seminary.  But we were just talking at one of those conferences – I set a record for the most number of laymen brought to his class when I was a student.  I'd bring them in from the highways and the byways and the hedges. Bob:                So you used to sneak in and then, once you enrolled, you started sneaking other guys in? Dennis:          I brought other guys in.  I want to show you how to drink water from a fire hydrant, and Dr. Hendricks is, indeed, a fire hydrant.  And you and I both know, I ran across a series of messages that I'd never heard him give.  It was actually a lectureship sponsored by Dallas Seminary a number of years ago on aging.  And I first said, "You know what?  I want our speaker team that speaks at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences to hear this series," and then I thought, "You know what?  I want you, as a listener, to hear this."  Because I don't think most of us have a very good perspective about aging and retirement and some of the issues we're going to face as we grow older. Bob:                Now, listen, some of our listeners are in their 30s.  Do you think this is going to apply to them? Dennis:          Oh, absolutely.  You know, in fact, if you go to the book of Ecclesiastes, I think it's chapter 12, the author says, "Remember God in the days of your youth," and then he goes on to describe old age.  It's kind of like, now wait a second, you're talking about old age, but why do you exhort us to remember God when we're young?  Well, I think the answer is your understanding of walking with God today as you're young will determine who you become when you're an elderly man, an elderly woman.  And I'm kind of on a little bit of a crusade and a soapbox about wiping out crotchety, gripey, complaining old men and bitter old ladies.  You know, I think we've got enough of them.  I think if anybody ought to have a smile on their face, it ought to be those of us who grow old with Jesus Christ. Bob:                Well, this week, we're going to hear one of the three messages that Dr. Hendricks shared with the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conference speaker team on the subject of aging, and he was really talking about retirement, which he says is not a biblical concept in the way that most people think about retirement.  Let's listen together.  Here is Dr. Howard Hendricks. [audio clip] Howard:         I want to talk on rethinking retirement – one of the greatest transitions in human experience.  Norman Cousins said it – "Retirement supposed to be a chance to join the winners' circle, has turned out more dangerous than automobiles and LSD.  It is the chance to do everything that leads to nothing.  It is the gleaming brass ring that unhorses the rider.  For many people, retirement is an assignment to no man's land, grossly ill-fitted for Christian culture.  We are producing men and women, a society of unemployed people without a mission, the equivalent of a death sentence."                         It is proven by statistics – we now know that the average person dies within seven years after retirement and increasingly that figure is being changed because it is not uncommon for people to die two years after retirement, and the reason is clear.  There are two lines in every person's life.  There is a lifeline, and there is a purpose line, and the moment the purpose line evaporates, it is just a question of time before the lifeline goes as well.                         Bear in mind that retirement is a recent social phenomenon – the arbitrary age of 65 was set in 1889 by German Chancellor Bismarck, but what has always fascinated me is at that time in history the life expectancy was 55.  So the bulk of the people for whom it was designed never enjoyed the benefits.  And increasing it, as the United States has done, is just as ridiculous.                           Every now and then I hear someone say retirement is not a biblical concept, and it's quite transparent to anyone who knows the Scriptures that it is not the pattern for a born-again, eternally headed individual.  But it's only partially true.  We do have one reference to retirement in the Scripture, and it's found in Numbers 8, verses 25 and 26, where we are informed that the Levites were to retire at age 50; the reason being the task was so arduous, so strenuous that men in the intelligence which God alone provided, said you need to give up the physical ministry of the priesthood.  But what is often overlooked is that He gave them an option.  He said, "I want you to spend the rest of your life mentoring younger priests."                         Now, you may retire from a job.  You may not have the option.  But you never retire from life; you never retire from a ministry.  Stepping into retirement is stepping into entirely different universe with a distinctive lifestyle all of its own.  And I am convinced that this particular transition is, to the believer, one of the highest measurements of your spiritual maturity.                         So today I want to move into two areas.  First of all, examine retirement negatively – what it is not; and then, positively, what it is.   Let's begin with the power of negative thinking, with apologies to Norman Vincent Peale.  I find Peale appalling and Paul appealing.  The more I am exposed to the Christian community, the more I am convinced that some of the sloppiest thinking in all of time totally infects Christians who move into retirement.  So let me give you seven things retirement is not.                         First of all, it is not a reward.  Your reward comes in heaven not on earth.  But many people think it's a reward for good behavior, and the result is they spend their years sliding for home, reaching for the bench at the very time they ought to be tearing the place apart for Jesus Christ. Secondly, it's not a formula.  There is no one-size-fits-all retirement available.  It's a process, but it's a process that is highly individual.  There is no contract that spells out the details and the conditions.  There is no blueprint showing you the way.   Third, retirement is not a retreat.  As a matter of fact, it is exactly the opposite – it is intentional advance, but the key is it involves a gradual adjustment. Number four, it is not, not busy work – something to give you something to do.  It's a balance between leisure and work.  Isn't it amazing how often we suffer from the peril of the pendulum?  We swing to one side or the other.  Throughout our life, we constantly face the danger of worshipping work as an idol, but now we worship leisure as an idol.  And is it any wonder that John finishes an epistle by saying, "Keep yourself from idols."  Number five, it is not self-centered; it's not socially pigging out getting lost in an entertainment glut.  Retirement is meant to be more than for my benefit, and I think that's why an increasing number, even of secular people, are retiring from retirement.  The one positive thing about the baby boom is they live long enough and watched enough older people waste the latter years of their life that they are refusing to go that route.  They are asking for more time for employment where at least it gives them worthwhile to do.  Six, retirement is not guaranteed.  There is no guarantee that those latter years of your life will be successful.  They are the bonus years, but they all depend upon two things – God's part and your part.  No question that God will come through with His part.  The question is, will you and I come through with our part and ultimately that depends on how well prepared you are. And, seventh and last, retirement is not death – we have 100-percent probability on that.  Retirement has four major problems attached to it.  The first of which is income – the financial component; the second of which is health – the physical component; the third of which is housing, your living arrangements; but the fourth and the most important is purpose, meaning – and interest in life.  And the fascinating thing to me, and all the research proves it, is we're making tremendous progress in the first three but substantially none in the fourth, because it's the least recognized, and it's the most neglected. [end audio clip] Bob:                That's Dr. Howard Hendricks talking about some of the challenges that come with aging, specifically the issue of retirement.  It sounds like he could write "The Purpose-Driven Retirement," huh?  I think there's a hit book there for him. Dennis:          I think there is.  You know, what he's challenging us to do is to not think about our retirement in a worldly way, but to think about it in a spiritual, in a biblical way.  And our listeners are going to hear a series later on this spring, as Barbara and I talk about moving from the empty nest into what we are calling "prime time," and I think retirement needs to be prime time.  We need to have that purpose that Dr. Hendricks was talking about.  We need to have realigned our lives in light of the mission God has for us, and we need to get on with life.  We need to be about His work on this planet, because the person who has unplugged from their vocation has some additional time, theoretically, to be able to invest in some eternal pursuits that he may have never had in his or her life before. And I think knowing your purpose, knowing your mission, knowing what your life is all about, is very important, and I'd like to submit to you that Homebuilders, a small group Bible study, ought to be a very attractive ministry for a lot of couples who are moving into this phase of life, into prime time, and they are needing to sink their teeth into something purposeful – something that's going to make a difference for future generations.  Homebuilders is a small-group Bible study that I think can be used in the lives of young couples who are starting out their marriages, their families, and who are going through their own seasonal changes in their family who need help from an older generation. Bob:                And you're thinking that young couples would want to hear what a retired couple has to say about marriage? Dennis:          Absolutely.  I'm younger than some folks who are in this phase right now who are speaking truth and speaking vision and modeling certain realities to me, as a man.  I think all of us ought to have others who are a lap or two ahead of us in the race of life, who can guide us and direct us and make sure we don't waste any of our lives. Bob:                Retirement is not a move from productivity and work and meaning to leisure and enjoyment and recreation.  It's a move from one set of priorities to a new set of spiritual priorities, a new set of spiritual goals that you now have some free time for that you didn't have when you had to punch the clock every day. Dennis:          That's right, and that's why I'd suggest Homebuilders, which is very easy to lead, and I think most folks who are in this phase of life, the prime times of their lives, have the place – they've got a living room that's empty.  There's not any children running around, very few interruptions and, frankly, a lot of couples need to get away from their children for an evening occasionally and hear the biblical blueprints for building a marriage or a family. Bob:                Well, we've got the information, as you would imagine, about Homebuilders on our website at FamilyLife.com.  You can get more information about how easy it is to start one of these groups.  Get some other couples to join with you and experience the fun but also the purpose and the meaning that's wrapped up in being in a Homebuilders group.  Go to FamilyLife.com, or if you want to call 1-800-FLTODAY, someone on our team can give you more information about Homebuilders and how you can get involved in that growing movement of small groups all across the country.                         We also have Dr. Hendricks' message as part of a three-message series on either cassette or CD.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request that series.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.   Dennis:          Order two copies of this three-CD series – one for yourself and one for your parents – maybe three copies – one for your in-laws.  I just think there's a lot of sloppy thinking when it comes to retirement and what ought to be the prime time of our lives and, frankly, here is a man who is in his 80s – very vigorous, very alive in spite of battling cancer, who is showing us how to finish strong. Bob:                Well, again, go to our website at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information on the series of tapes or CDs from Dr. Howard Hendricks.  And then let me encourage you to also get a copy of John Piper's book, "Don't Waste Your Life."  A lot of people think that's a book for young people who are just starting out, and I remember Dr. Piper begins the book by talking about a retired couple that moved to Florida and collected seashells.  Do you remember that story? Dennis:          I do. Bob:                His whole premise is you can waste your life no matter what age you are, and you can also have a meaning and purpose for your life at any stage, at any age.  We have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well.                         Again, our website is FamilyLife.com.  If you want to call, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Let me say a quick word of thanks to the many folks who have joined with us here at FamilyLife as Legacy Partners.  These are the folks who, on a monthly basis, help provide the financial support for our ministry.  You know, in December we had a lot of folks who wrote to us and who made year-end contributions, and we appreciate all of you who did that, but there's also that group who keeps in mind that we have bills come due in January, and these are the folks who, each month, send a donation of $25 or $30, $50, $100 a month to help support the ongoing ministry of FamilyLife Today. Dennis:          And I'd like to encourage you, if you've been ministered to by the ministry of FamilyLife, would you stand with Bob and me here on FamilyLife Today?  Our Legacy Partners are real difference-makers.  They keep us going. Bob:                You can find out more about becoming a Legacy Partner, again, on our website at FamilyLife.com or just give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY and say, "Tell me more about this Legacy Partner thing," and someone on our team would be happy to help you understand how you can join the growing team of folks who help make FamilyLife Today possible.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to hear part two of Dr. Hendricks' message on retirement, and I hope you can tune in.  I hope you can call somebody who may be retired or retiring and invite them to tune in for part two of this message as well.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

A Biblical Look at Aging (Part 1) - Howard HendricksA Biblical Look at Aging (Part 2) - Howard HendricksFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What is Retirement?Day 2 of 2 Guest:                            Dr. Howard Hendricks From the Series:         What is Retirement?________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Pastor Rick Warren has referred to life as a dress rehearsal for eternity.  Howard Hendricks says that's a perspective we need to maintain even in our retirement years. Howard:         C.S. Lewis said it – "Hope means a continual looking forward to the eternal world."  It does not mean that we are to leave the present world as it is.  If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were just those who thought most of the next world.  It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this world. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, January 19th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  There is still a lot of eternal work that needs to be done, even in the retirement years.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  I know there's still a few years before you and Barbara hit 65, but … Dennis:          Yes, I was thinking about you, too.  Are you and Mary Ann ready for retirement? Bob:                We're still – we're much younger than you. Dennis:          I was thinking, have you thought about early retirement? Bob:                Are you trying to suggest something?  Pick up your check on the way out the door? Dennis:          You know, there are some people who, if they heard that, and you know I'm kidding 100 percent, but if they heard those words, that would be chilling words – to hear your boss say, "Have you ever thought about early retirement?"  And the reason is, they don't know what they'd do, because they're not sure what they're about today.  And I think, as never before, we, as followers of Christ, need to be on a mission that transcends what we do at work. Bob:                That's right.  We're listening this week to a message from Dr. Howard Hendricks, who spoke to the couples who speak at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conferences.  We asked him to come in and help us think ahead to that time as we grow older when we'll face retirement, and we've got some young couples who speak at our conferences – couples in their late 20s and their 30s, but they were taking notes just like everyone else was taking notes, as Dr. Hendricks laid out a game plan for us to think ahead to that time when we may slow down a bit, because our body does slow down; when we may have less vocational work to do.  But it's not a time to just sit on the porch and rock.  It's a time to have a new focus and a new mission. Dennis:          It is, and this message is a part of a three-message series we're offering here on FamilyLife Today on the whole aspect of growing old and thinking through the aging process biblically, and I think there is a need for us to do that.                         Dr. Howard Hendricks was my professor at Dallas Theological Seminary where he's taught for over 52 years.  Now, think about that – he's had a job there for a long time.  He is still teaching there.  He and his wife Jeanne have four children.  I think they have eight grandchildren, and he is a great man and a great friend. Bob:                Well, let's listen together.  Here is part two of Dr. Hendricks' message on getting ready for retirement.   [audio clip] Howard:         I'd like to share with you five principles, but I want to underscore for you every one of them has a danger inherent in it.  Number one, retirement requires intensive prayer and planning and preparation.  It is hard to come up with the statistics, but if you talk to people who are specialists in the field of geriatrics, they will tell you this is virtually nonexistent, and I would say, "Well, maybe that's just true of the pagan community and culture."  I could only wish it were true.                           I spend all of my time in the Christian community, and I'm here to tell you the preparation is in the algebraic minus quantity.  There is a passage of Scripture that I hear, in my judgment, perverted.  It's found in the Book of James, chapter 4 – now, listen, you who say today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a time, a year, there, carry on business and make money.  Why, you don't even know what will happen tomorrow.  What is your life?  Here is the key – your life is a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.  You've got a little slice of life in which to make your impact for Christ, and often this is said to be a prohibition against planning – nothing further from the biblical truth.  Look at the last part – instead, here is your option, you ought to say if it is the Lord's will, you will live and do this or that.  As it is, you boast and brag and all such boasting is evil.  Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.  What an indictment.  Not of lack of planning but of planning with presumption that I'm going to do this or that in my retirement and that is guaranteed and no thought of the will of God.                         That's why I say you need to begin by discarding the secular concept of retirement that prevails in your culture, and you need to replace it with the understanding it's not what do I want for my retirement – what does the Lord of my life want for my retirement?  How does He want me to spend those bonus years, which are priceless?  And planning, I am discovering, is a form of spiritual discipline.  Most of us don't plan to fail, we fail to plan, and that's particularly true in the area of retirement.  What's the danger in this?  The danger is the danger of unrealistic expectations.  They're either false or they're shifting or they do not exist and, in any case, they are lethal.                           The second principle I would share with you is this – retirement is always, always built on your personal mission, your calling.  And that's why it's not more productive.  To be productive and rewarding, your retirement must be meaningful to you in your stage of life.  That's why you constantly need to ask the question I hope you have asked prior to this – why did God place me on the planet?  I told you I am a fulfilled human being because thank God for mentors who so built into my life that they helped me to determine early on what was my passion, what was my gift?  And if I do not teach, then I cease having any reason for existence.  And so people constantly ask me, "What are you going to do when you retire?"  I said, "You've got to be kidding.  I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing right now and have been for over 51 years at the seminary and prior to that in a pastorate, and that's building into the life of other people."  But what happens if I become incapacitated?  I can no longer travel, no longer move, no longer speak?  Then I will spend those remaining years praying for those like you that God has left on the planet to fulfill the mission He has given you. What's the danger in the second principle?  It's the danger of allowing your life to turn inward; to become self-absorbed and provincial, and I must tell you, nothing breaks my heart as much.  I said as I did not too long ago with a man who could not control his crying by telling me, "I wasted my life," when everybody in our community celebrates him as the ultimately successful.  Now he spends all of his time with his press clippings, all of his time looking at those awards that he received, but he has no external impact except that which is negative. Number three – retirement revolves around your self-identity and, remember, your self-identity is being continually formed through the whole of your life.  By the way, if you have not learned that you are not indispensable, retirement will teach you that as nothing else.  Like a businessman said to me recently – he said, "Hendricks, I woke up one day after the party, after the celebration, and in the first month I discovered no one ever called me.  I spent all of my time and my life on the phone giving counsel, recommending what others ought to do, and nobody" – and so I decided I'd go down to the office to see, and I said, "How's it going?"  "It is going fantastic.  It's never been this good."  And he said, "I climbed into my car, and I couldn't drive, because I couldn't see.  And suddenly it dawned on me, I'm not indispensable, I never have been." We need to learn to distinguish between our work and our worth.  What you are as a person is not to be equated with what you do.  My friend, you are not a human doing, you are a human being, and our worth ultimately as Christian is what we are in Christ.  The danger is that that image is distorted by other people, and so you depend on what you need, and that's strokes.  But if that's your only dependence, you're in trouble. The fourth one – retirement involves a definite process, and it can easily be summarized in three words – there is a losing, there is a leaving, and there is a letting go.  If you fail to do any of the three, you're in deep trouble.  See, loss is important to all of life.  A number of us were talking before, many of them my students here, and they said, "Prof, what have you lost?"  I said, "How many hours do you have?  Jeanne and I lost our oldest daughter.  You expect to bury your parents, you don't expect to bury your children.  Try that.  We lost my youngest son's wife from breast cancer after seven years of incredible agony, leaving three wonderful kids without a mom."  And in the process of discussion, I said, "You guys need to know I have not lost anything of my drive, of my passion, but I've lost some of my energy.  I no longer can do what I used to do.  Try adjusting to that."  And it's hard for some of you, because you're not there yet, though some of you are moving in that direction and are beginning to see there are losses to life, and your task is to leave them, to let them go.  Otherwise, you cling tenaciously to them, and that's what eats your lunch in retirement.  That's why older people spend so much time in nostalgia.  It's not simply a desire to return to the past, it's a failure to face the future.  The danger in retirement is inertia.  It's passivity.  It's people who just sit, and if they think at all, all they can think of is their past. Number five – retirement demands an eternal perspective.  It was my little brother at Wheaton, Jim Elliott, who used to say it so often when we would meet – "Howie, we must give what we cannot keep in order to gain what we cannot lose."  So as a Christian you are forced to give up in order to gain what I believe may be the most significant years of your life from God's perspective.  But the ultimate question in an eternal perspective is what is the center of your life around which everything else is organized?  Is it a terminating core or is it a non-terminating core?  Whenever you build your life around a terminating core, whether it's your home or your car or your money or even your family, then you are going to sustain the most severe losses, and it will never fulfill you.  That's why the only adequate candidate, in my judgment, is Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.  This is why I believe hope is unique to Christianity.   C.S. Lewis said it – "Hope means a continual looking forward to the eternal world."  It does not mean that we are to leave the present world as it is.  If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were just those who thought most of the next world.  It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this one.  Aim at heaven, and you will get earth thrown in – aim at earth, and you will get neither.   When I was a kid, I cannot tell you how many times I heard the statement from pastors and Bible teachers and friends, and that is, "You spend so much time thinking about the next world, that you are no good in this one."  Do you know what we need to do?  We need to reverse that.  We spend so much time in this world, and perhaps this is why we are no more effective in terms of the next one.  What's the danger?  The danger is forgetting where your home is.   Malcolm Muggeridge, in his penetrating way, said "The only ultimate disaster that can befall us as Christians is to feel ourselves to be at home here on earth.  As long as we are aliens, we cannot forget our true homeland." [end audio clip] Bob:                That's Dr. Howard Hendricks, and I remember as he was presenting this material, sitting there thinking of that song, "This world is not my home, I'm just a-passing through."  Do you remember that one?  That's the reality.  We've got to keep our eyes focused on where we're headed, and we've got to do all we can in this life to get ourselves and everyone else we know ready for the next one. Dennis:          Yes, and his last point – retirement demands an eternal perspective.  It is all about investing in people.  It's about seeing God use us to change people's lives, and that's why, as we talk about retirement, what ought to be the prime time of our lives, I'm challenging on an increasing basis, in fact, I'm getting on my soapbox, Bob, and I'm challenging folks who are moving into these years of their lives – become a Homebuilder.  Lead a small-group Bible study with a group of married couples, a group of parents, maybe parents of young children or parents of teenagers, maybe the military family.  You know, this is a critical time for our military.  The family has been impacted there.  We have a Homebuilder Bible study that was written just for the military family. Bob:                We've got one for blended families, too.  We've got a whole series for parents and 10 different titles for married couples.  So we've tried to provide an easy-to-use tool.  Now we just need folks who will pick up the tool and go to work. Dennis:          Right.  I personally believe this Bible study is the most effective small-group Bible study for the family that's ever been produced, and you need to know when you support us financially, you make it possible for us to produce these Bible studies and get them translated and published in other languages.  And I want you, as a listener, to know that Homebuilders has now been translated into 200 different languages and dialects around the world.  We have no idea how many millions of copies have been produced and are now in use in other countries.  This is a phenomenal outreach, but it's a very important outreach here in America, and I think anyone who is approaching the retirement years ought to think about leading a Homebuilders' group. Bob:                That's right. We appreciate those of you who do support us and help make this outreach possible, and those of you who would like to become Homebuilders leaders, go to our website at FamilyLife.com.  There's more information available there, or give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY.  Someone on our team can let you know how easy it is to start a Homebuilders group.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com or the number 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's also how you would get hold of the message you've heard today from Dr. Howard Hendricks.  It's part of a three-CD or three-cassette series on the subject of aging, and you can contact us for more information on how you can have his messages sent to you. Dennis:          Like I mentioned earlier, Bob, get three copies – one for yourself, one for your parents, and one for your in-laws.  I think we need to be seeding the marketplace – those who are in their retirement years with good, solid, biblical teaching about what it means to age and grow old with a mission. Bob:                Well, again, you can find information online at FamilyLife.com or give us a call at 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to introduce you to some college students who, back when they were in high school, decided to get together and make a movie – I mean a real movie – and we'll meet the woman who directed the effort and helped them make their dream possible.  We'll hear about the movie, "Holly's Story," tomorrow, and I hope you can be with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Growing Up With WoodenDay 1 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                It was the 1920s in rural Indiana.  The Depression had not yet rocked America.  John Wooden was a young boy growing up on a farm, a high school student who loved basketball but who was about to meet the real love of his life. John:              I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know, but she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that.  Somehow, on the first day of classes my freshman year, we happened to be in the same class, and I knew right then, and we knew we were going to be married by the time I got out of high school, and August 8th it would have been 70 years since last August 8th, we would have been married. Bob:                Today you'll hear the first part of a conversation with a man who grew up to be one of the greatest coaches of all time as we talk about his faith, his family, and basketball.  Stay tuned as we talk with Coach John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  I can't help but smile as I listen to that excerpt from our interview with Coach John Wooden.  Of course, a lot of people are smiling right about now because this is the time of the year when March madness really takes over.  There is a lot of basketball ahead for us. Dennis:          Semis are this weekend, Final Four on Monday. Bob:                It's got to bring back lots of memories for you from your college days, doesn't it? Dennis:          Well, high school.  You know, going back to high school, Bob, those were my glory days.  My college days, I had several splinters. Bob:                Sitting on the bench, huh? Dennis:          I got the 15th uniform out of 15 in college.  I learned what it was like to be a substitute. Bob:                But your team almost went to the Final Four, didn't it? Dennis:          Well, not THE Final Four.  We almost went to the Junior College National Championships in Kansas, and I'm trying to remember where in Kansas. Bob:                But that's like the Final Four for Junior Colleges, right? Dennis:          Oh, yeah, absolutely.  In fact, I started that game – the last game of my college career, I started. Bob:                You poured in what – 15, 20 points? Dennis:          Now, wait a second – hold it, just one second, because they put me on an All American.  This is a true story.  The coach had watched me.  It was the only game I started in my college career, but my coach was so impressed with me never quitting and just staying out there and being tenacious – he started me.  And he put me on the quickest guy I've ever played against. Bob:                Man-to-man defense. Dennis:          Man-to-man defense, and did you know, when I left the game in the first half – I played about six or seven minutes – I had scored more points … Bob:                … than the All American, and the reason was this:  He was so fast and I was so slow, he would fake three or four times, and by the time I had taken his first fake, I was back to where he was really going.  And so I would post up underneath the bucket, and the guy didn't like to play defense, and I'd post up on him and score.  And so when I left the game, I had actually scored more points than him. Bob:                Now, some of our listeners are wondering what are you talking about Dennis' glory days of basketball on FamilyLife Today? Dennis:          Because we really don't have anything else to talk about.  No, that's not true.  We have a guest today – well, Bob, a dream of mine, and I sent you a note one day.  I said, "Bob, you know, one of the people I would really like in all the world to interview for FamilyLife Today and for our listeners and give them a glimpse of what a great human being he is, what many have described as the greatest coach of any sport of all time – Coach John Wooden."  Now, there are a number of our listeners who have no idea who John Wooden is, but a ton do.  Bob:                Coach Wooden coached the UCLA Bruins back in the '60s and the '70s. Dennis:          Well, actually, he started coaching in 1948.  That's what most people don't realize is.  He didn't build that national championship dominant team in the '60s and '70s.  He built it in obscurity beginning in 1948 throughout all the '50s and early '60s before he won his first national championship in 1964. Bob:                And after he won his first one, then he won his second and his third and his fourth and his fifth and his sixth.  Over a 12-year period he won 10 national championships. Dennis:          That's right, including winning 88 games in a row before they were knocked off at the Houston Astrodome, and I remember watching this game as a young man, where Lew Alcindor was playing against Elvin Hayes, and Houston beat them 71-69, and the Astrodome had, like, 49,000 people in it.  It was nationally televised.  It was an event, and there are few coaches that could claim the accomplishments that – in any sport – what he has accomplished.  But in basketball, he is the ultimate. Bob:                Well, we're going to hear a little bit about that game and about a lot of other games as we talk with Coach Wooden over the next few days.  A while back, you and I sat down with him in a studio in Los Angeles and just had a great opportunity to find out about the man who grew up to be "The Coach."  Here is part 1 of our conversation with Coach John Wooden: Dennis:          Tell us about life in the Wooden household when you were growing up as a young lad. John:              We had a small farm, and I learned a lot, I think, of things that helped me later on.  You had to work hard.  Dad felt there was time for play but always after the chores and the studies were done.  Dad would read to us every night from the Scriptures and poetry, and I think that created a love of poetry, which I've always had, liked to dabble in it a little bit.  My dad was a wonderful person.  I never heard him speak an ill word of anybody; never blamed anybody for anything; I never heard him use a word of profanity.  I think that his reading to us of a night later caused all four sons to get through college, though he had no financial means to help and there were no athletic scholarships.  All four sons graduated from college and all majored or minored in English, and all got advanced degrees, and I think Dad had a lot to do with that. Dennis:          Your dad had, as you've already mentioned, a profound impact on your life.  In fact, I was so looking forward to this interview with you, because I've quoted you about something that you said you carried around in your pocket.  Or – it, first of all, was carried around in your father's pocket, is that right?  And then you started carrying it around – it was your dad's creed – and then a poem by a pastor by the name of Henry Van Dyke. John:              My father gave to me, when I graduated from high school – excuse me – from grade school, from the eighth grade, he gave me a $2 bill – one of those large $2 bills and said, "Son, as long as you keep this you'll never be broke."  Then he also gave me a card, and on one side was the verse by Reverend Van Dyke that said, "Four things a man must learn to do if he would make his life more true; to think without confusion clearly; to love his fellow man sincerely; to act from honest motives purely; to trust in God and heaven securely." And on the other side was a seven-point creed, and the seven-point creed insisted, first of all, I think it was, "Be true to yourself," and I think we know if we're true to ourselves, we'll be true to others; and the second was "Help others."  There is no greater joy than a person can have than do something for someone else, especially when you do it with no thought of something in return. Another one was "Make friendship a fine art."  Work at it, don't take it for granted, work at making friends and making friendships flourish.  And then was one, I think, stood out to me a great deal was, "Make me today your masterpiece," and I tried to teach from that, as time went by, to my players and my English students, to just try and do the best you can each day.  Just make each day a masterpiece.  It's the only thing over which you have control.  You have no control over yesterday.  That will never change.  The only way you can affect tomorrow is today.  And then another one was to "Drink deeply from good books, especially the Bible;" and then was "Build a shelter against a rainy day," and he wasn't thinking about a physical shelter, he was thinking about a more lasting shelter.  When I think about that, I often think of when Socrates was unjustly imprisoned and was facing imminent death and the jailers who were mean people, they couldn't understand his serenity, and they said, "Why aren't you preparing for death?"  And his statement was, "I've been preparing for death all my life by the life I've led," and when I think of building a shelter against a rainy day, I think that's what Dad had in mind. Then the last was – the seventh was "Give thanks for your blessings and pray for guidance every day," and I've carried that with me in one form or another since those days, yes. Bob:                Those core convictions are so bedrock with you, that's a part of how your mom and dad raised you.  I think some people – we hear those things in the 21st century and some people go, "That sounds kind of old-fashioned, kind of corny," but that's so ingrained into who you are and who you've been, and you would say that's been a part of what has made you successful as a coach, right? John:              Well, I would hope so, but I know, too, if someone said, "I'm not what I ought to be and not what I want to be and not what I'm going to be, but I think those things have made me better than I would have been. Dennis:          Your dad read the Bible every day. John:              Yes, he did. Dennis:          How did you see him live out his faith in Christ every day, as a father?  What are the most indelible memories that you have, as a boy, watching your dad?  Because, undoubtedly, for him to have the influence he had on you as a man, his character has to resonate even today in your life. John:              Perhaps I wasn't realizing it at the time, but as I look back on my dad and the fact that he never spoke an ill word of anyone and just was a good person.  You don't realize it so much of the time, and many of the things – one of the things he said was never try to be better than someone else.  You have no control over that, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned – maybe these weren't his exact words, but things over which you have no control will adversely affect the things over which you have control.                         Now, years later, I remember that.  So somewhere in the hidden recesses of the mind, they stuck there, but it was things like that.  Mr. Lincoln said there is nothing stronger than gentleness, and my father was gentle man – working with animals and things.  I remember reading to us nights over the Scriptures, and I can still close my eyes and hear him reading "Hiawatha."  I can still hear "By the shores of Gitchigoomie, by the Shining Big Sea Water, Stood the wigwam of Nokomis," and so on, and things of that sort. Bob:                You didn't have any TV, any radio, so in the evening reading was the primary form of entertainment, wasn't it? John:              You're correct – by a coal oil lamp or candles. Bob:                Was your dad – as you think back on his life, you've talked about this tender side of him, and yet he was still whipping you when you did the wrong thing.  Was he a strict disciplinarian? John:              Well, I would say yes but not in a physical point of way.  I know – oh, I didn't want to get an unkind word from my dad, you know, a strong word.  I don't know, you just hated to hurt him in any way.  You just had that feeling about him. Dennis:          As you followed your dad, you undoubtedly watched how he'd love your mother.  Tell us about what you observed there and his commitment to her, as a woman and to his wife, over their years together. John:              Well, I think Dad's first concern was always for Mother.  He was looking out for her the best he could in every way but in a gentle way, in a gentle way.  I can picture them together – not at all the romantic way that you might think, but there was just something between them that was very, very special.  I don't know how to describe it. Dennis:          You said of yourself in your book, "They Call Me Coach," that as you moved into your high school years, you were shy, you were reserved, especially with the opposite sex. John:              Yes, I suppose, not being exposed much – no sisters – and I'm on the farm, and I suppose that's the reason, I don't know, but I was a little shy. Bob:                But here you were, this star basketball player on the high school team.  I mean, the girls, the cheerleaders, had to notice Johnny Wooden, didn't they?  Did they call you Johnny back then or was it John? John:              They called me lots of things. (laughter)                          You'd be surprised, the more they think it was John Bob. Bob:                John Bob. Dennis:          John Bob. John:              And Nellie and I had been married for many years when her sister came out here to California one time, and she said, "Don't you think you and John have been married long enough that you should quit calling him John Bob?" Bob:                But didn't the girls start to notice you as you were draining those jump shots on the basketball teams? Dennis:          Yeah, he kind of skirted your answer there.  I was watching him about that. John:              Well, I'll tell you, my freshman year, I was still living on the farm.  We didn't lose the farm until after my freshman year, and then we commuted from this little town of Center, and we lived about a half a mile out of that to Martinsville, and I noticed this one little gal, and I didn't know that she had noticed me, too, but I didn't know that, and that summer she brought the brother of her closest friend, who became very dear to me, to drive up.  Her brother had a car, and they drove up, and I was working in the field plowing corn with a team, and they parked in the road and motioned for me to come over, and I wouldn't go over.  I just kept on. Bob:                Why wouldn't you go over?  Here's this cute girl on the side of the road … Dennis:          … and you even liked her, too. John:              Oh, yeah, but I was dirty and somehow on the first day of classes, we happened to be in the same class.  She said, "Why didn't you come over to see us?"  I said, "Well, I was dirty and perspiring, and you would have just made fun of me."  And Nellie said – I can still see her, she said, "I would never make fun of you," and I knew right then … Dennis:          … there was a spark in her eyes. John:              And this is the only girl I ever really went with. Bob:                So by your junior year in high school, did you think, "This is the girl I'll marry?" John:              I did. Bob:                And you all started going together? John:              We did. Bob:                So you waited to marry until you got to college? John:              Yes, until I graduated.  I was glad to be married and graduated and got my first job, yes. Bob:                Coach, that's a long courtship – from your junior year in high school until you've graduated from college and got your first job.  That must have been hard. Dennis:          But, Bob, the rest of the story is, if Nellie hadn't put her foot down … Bob:                … he might still be dragging it on today? Dennis:          Well, there is the rest of the story here, because he really had promised her that he was going to marry her upon graduation, but then the war came along. John:              Yes.  Well, I had an appointment to West Point, and she said it would be six more years, and "I'm not going to wait.  I'm going to a convent."  So I didn't go to West Point. Bob:                She said she wouldn't wait on you? John:              That's right. Dennis:          And so what did you do? John:              Well, I finished at Purdue.  Dennis:          So you were married then? John:              We were married on August 8th.  It would have been 70 years just last August 8th that we would have been married.  We were married on August 8, 1932. Dennis:          You were, in those days, All American three years in a row, you were named the College Player of the Year your senior year, and as I was doing this research, I was thinking – I was talking to Bob.  I said, "I don't remember Coach Wooden being that tall, to be College Player of the Year.  He must have been 6'3" or 6'4".  On the sidelines you looked a little small around those big guys at UCLA.  But you were only 5'10" in those days. John:              But, you know, the teams weren't as big then, either, as they are now, too.  Our center at Purdue, Stretch Murphy, was 6'8", and he was a giant.  I only had the pleasure of playing with him one year.  I had the displeasure of playing against him one year when I was a sophomore in high school for the Indiana State Championship, he was the center on the opposing team, and he was good. Bob:                Did you just have what it takes as an athlete?  Were you just a naturally gifted – something about the way God made you that you turned out to be a good basketball player?  Or did you work really hard to be a good ball player? John:              Well, I hope I did the latter, but He provided the former.  I had natural quickness, and I couldn't do much about my height, but I could do something about my condition, and I always wanted to be in the best possible condition and hoped that would be better than others, hoped others wouldn't work as hard at it as I did do that, and I think I carried that throughout, and I think that helped.  And I think it probably come from my earlier grade school days on the farm of working hard, and I like to feel that no one is going to be in better condition, then I have no control over it.  I should have control over myself. Bob:                Well, we've been listening to a conversation with Coach John Wooden – actually, part 1 of a conversation that we're going to hear the remainder of over the next couple of days. Dennis:          What a sweet time, huh? Bob:                It was a great time. Dennis:          Bob, you and I just had a great time.  I'd look over at you occasionally, and you'd be sitting there grinning, and I'd be grinning, and the reason is, is when we interviewed Coach, he was 91 years old.  He's now at his 92nd birthday, and I'm told that he knows where 180 of his players are – his past players.  He's kept in touch with them.  I heard about a coach the other day whose players never go back to visit him – none of them.  It's common knowledge that his players don't want to have anything to do with him, and I think about Coach Wooden and the wisdom that he passed on, and it reminds me, really, of Proverbs, chapter 4, where a father is imploring and exhorting a son to "Listen, my son, and acquire wisdom."   And I'll tell you, just hanging with the Coach for the interview we did over an hour and a half, we're not going to be able to air all of it here on the broadcast over the next couple of days, but just hanging with him, you thought, "What would it have been like to have played for a coach like that?"  And then it hit me, you know, that's what our children need to be expressing about us as parents.  You know, we learned, we sat under the greatest mom, the greatest dad, the greatest coach, the greatest teacher the world has ever known.  Yeah, they're going to be biased, but the idea is that we, as parents, we're impacting the next generation just like Coach Wooden did. Bob:                That's right.  You mentioned the entire interview going more than an hour and a half long.  We've actually taken the complete interview and put it on two CDs, and I got some early copies of these CDs, and I'll tell you what I found – you can pass these out to lots of folks.  You can pass them out to the high school coach at the high school where your kids go. Dennis:          Oh, let me tell you something, I've been doing this, and I've had friends doing this – any coach of any sport – Laura's volleyball coach – I gave her a copy of this, and she grabbed hold of it like it was gold, and the reason is it is gold.  Bob:                It's thoughts on life from a great coach but it's also thoughts on faith and character and what really matters.  You can use this as a way to begin a dialog and to open doors evangelistically with fans of the game, with coaches, with players, with friends.  We have the two-CD set that features the entire – I think it's about an hour-and-45-minute-long conversation with Coach John Wooden.                          It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY to request as many copies as you want. Dennis:          It even looks like a basketball on one side and a net on the other. Bob:                1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  You can also order online at FamilyLife.com.  Ask for the two-CD set of our conversation with Coach John Wooden when you contact us, and there's a second resource we want to mention to you as well – Coach Wooden has put together a course that is designed to teach his principles of success in business, in athletics, in school.  We have a videocassette where Coach lays out the Pyramid of Success that he put together, and we have the Pyramid on our website at FamilyLife.com, but we also have it on a mousepad that you can have by your computer just to review the character qualities that go into success in any endeavor.  Along with the video and the mousepad, we've got a wallet card. Dennis:          Not just any wallet card. Bob:                No, it's a laminated … Dennis:          … a laminated … Bob:                … that's right, and it has some of the Coach's philosophy on it – never lie, never cheat, never steal, don't whine, don't complain, don't make excuses – pretty simple stuff but profound nonetheless.                           Ask for these resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY or go online at FamilyLife.com, and you can see some of the resources there, and you can order online as well.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com.                          When you do get in touch with us, someone is likely to ask if you'd like to help with a donation to FamilyLife Today, and we hope when they ask, if you are able, you'll say yes and be able to add a donation to the work of this ministry.  We're a nonprofit organization, and we depend on those contributions to keep doing what we're doing.  So if you can't help with a donation, you can donate online at FamilyLife.com.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY or you can write a check and mail it to us at FamilyLife Today, Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  The zip code is 72221.  Once again, it's FamilyLife Today at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72221.                          Well, tomorrow we're going to find out how the UCLA dynasty almost never happened and how it might have been the Minnesota dynasty if it hadn't been for a snowstorm. Dennis:          Yeah, this is a great story about lost opportunity. Bob:                We'll hear that tomorrow as we continue our conversation with Coach John Wooden.  I hope you can be with us for that.                           I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights 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Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Pyramid of SuccessDay 3 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                There are a lot of skills in life that, according to Coach John Wooden, are more important than being able to hit a jumpshot or sink a free throw in the middle of a basketball game.  One of the character qualities that Coach Wooden tried to instill in all of his players was the quality of poise, which he defines as being comfortable with just being yourself. John:              The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not.  They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence.  There will be no fear, no trepidation at all.  They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, April 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  Before you sit down to watch the games this weekend, you ought to hear what The Coach has to say.  Stay with us.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  How does this work?  This is April, but this is the end of March Madness.  So is this just kind of a spillover?  Technically, is this April Madness that we're going to experience? Dennis:          I think it's March Madness without aspirin – there's been no cure, Bob. Bob:                Tomorrow, of course, are the semi-finals in college basketball, and then Monday night the championship game in what's called The Final Four, and it's all over the papers and all over the TV, and it's even here on FamilyLife Today, although we're not talking about this year's Final Four.  We are talking with a man who has been there year in and year out. Dennis:          He really has – Coach John Wooden coached UCLA to 10 national championships out of 12 years.  What a great man.  I just remember watching, as a young lad, his championship teams – the first year he won, 1964 – Gale Goodrich helped win that national championship.  He came back the next year and scored over 40 points in a game, and it's funny how you can remember those things as a kid, but basketball was a very important part of my life, and I think parents need to pay attention to their children's athletics.  Not just for their performance and whether or not they win the championships but the kind of coaches they have, the kind of influence that they have on them. And, Bob, you know, you were there when I received a phone call from the Washington Post asking me for my opinion if a parent should be informed if their daughter is going to play for a coach who is a lesbian, and they were wanting to know what I thought about that, and my ultimate point was character does matter, and a person's sexual practice and sexual preference are a reflection of his or her true character.  And Coach Wooden grew up in a family where he learned character, and he raised a family where they had great character. In fact, his daughter was in the room where we were interviewing him, and she was smiling so big during this interview, and she told us later it was one of her favorite interviews she's ever heard with her daddy who, at the time, Coach Wooden was 91 years of age.  And she was just beaming, because we were drilling down deep around the stories that surrounded their family. Bob:                You had asked him about regrets from coaching and yesterday we heard him share some of those regrets, and then you turned the conversation and asked him about any regrets at home.  Here is our interview with Coach John Wooden: Dennis:          I know something that I heard that you did that you don't regret, and that was spanking your daughter one time when she was in the fifth grade.  You're laughing.  You think it was the right thing? John:              Yes, I think it was the right thing.   Dennis:          Tell us about it. John:              Well, she had wanted very much a wristwatch, and I couldn't get the wristwatch at the time.  I had one coming for her.  I got her – and we got a cameo ring that we thought was very pretty and very nice, and when we gave it to her, we had some guests there – some friends – and she wanted the wristwatch.  She took that cameo ring and threw it, and she went to her room in a hurry with me after her, and I spanked her.  I think it's the only spanking that Nancy ever got from me.  I spanked her.  But what hurt her a lot is I made her march back in and apologize to our friends, and I think that hurt her worse.  I didn't hurt her too much on the spanking.  I remember that.  That's the only time. Dennis:          You were married for 53 years before Nellie's death. John:              Correct. Dennis:          It's my understanding that you have a tradition on the anniversary of her death – something that you're doing on a regular basis in honor of her. John:              Oh, I write her a letter, mm-hm.  We, Nan and Jim and I go to the cemetery, and we write her a letter. Dennis:          Just a letter expressing your heart, your love, your appreciation for the 53 years you shared with her? John:              More than that – there were several years before, you know, and still – still. Dennis:          She was a soulmate. John:              Indeed. Dennis:          How so? John:              Well, it will be kind of hard to explain just from first time, but there was something there almost from the first time we ever got acquainted, and she was the one for me, she was the one for me, she was the one for me. Bob:                Did she love basketball like you loved basketball? John:              She loved what I loved. Bob:                So if you loved basketball, she loved basketball. John:              That's right.  My main regret is that I didn't do the things that she liked to do.  She always did the things that I did.  She liked to dance, and I didn't.  I regret that I didn't learn to do more of the things – maybe go to operas and learn to dance and things of that sort.  Those are things I regret. Dennis:          What was your favorite quality about her? John:              I don't know how to answer favorites – it's just love, just love – something about her – I just loved her. Dennis:          Tell us how your relationship with Jesus Christ fit into your marriage and your family? John:              Well, I think that started going back in my early years.  My mother and father just good Christian people – not because they went to church and had us all go to church I don't think, necessarily, going to church makes you a good Christian, but Dad, I think, always reading the Scriptures every night, and I think that encouraged the children. Dennis:          Was there a time when you made a commitment as a young man or a boy to Jesus Christ that you look back on as being the time when your faith began? John:              I wish I could say that, but I can't.  I was baptized in 1927 with Nellie, because she wanted me to, and my parents wanted me to – and her parents – so I was baptized.  But in my heart I didn't really accept Christ then, and when I did, I can't say.  It wasn't a sudden overnight thing – something didn't happen.  I think it was just a gradual thing that came along.  I've heard of people saying one thing happened and it changed.  There wasn't any one thing. Bob:                Apart from your mom and dad, were there spiritual influences in your life as you went through coaching and as you continued as an adult? John:              Well, to some extent, many of the things that – I loved Lincoln – and many of the things of his life and his wonderful ability to say so much in just a few words and those things, and he was a spiritual man.  I think perhaps Billy Graham has always stood out to me above all others, and I don't want to say that the others aren't, but he just has stood out a little more in spiritual things.  And there have been things that have happened in my life that were strange – I wouldn't call them exactly spiritual.  I was in the service, I was to go aboard the USS Franklin in the South Pacific, and I had an emergency appendectomy, and somebody else went in my place, and that person who took my place was killed.  It wasn't my time. Bob:                The variety of players that you've had over the years – you've seen young men with all different orientations on life – some who have no interest in anything spiritual or religious; some who were devoutly interested in spiritual or religious things; in fact, it may have gotten in the way of their basketball sometimes, their interest in religious things, I don't know.  And then, of course, in a high-profile sense, you had one young man who had a very high-profile conversion that involved a name change.  What did you think when Lew Alcindor came and said, "I don't want to be called Lew anymore.  My new name is Kareem." John:              He never talked to me about it, and that wasn't done until after he was out of school.  I've had three players that have done that – all outstanding players.  Walter Hazzard was the first one – he changed Abdul-Rahman, but that was after he was out of school.  But here he has – his father's a minister, and he did.  And the third one is Keith Wilkes – now it's Jamaal.  I don't think I've ever known a finer person than Jamaal Wilkes – I don't know of a finer person, and his father also is a minister.  Now, he's the one that talked to me – all this happened after they left UCLA.  He asked me what I thought about it, and I said, "Well, it seems that most religions rely on our second commandment and not the first," which I don't approve of it, but I said, "What does your dad say?"  He said, "About the same thing as you said." Dennis:          Coach, when I was a young man, I was in junior college – I think it was my sophomore year, when you played Houston in the Astrodome in front of 52,000 fans.  It was a big showdown – number one, UCLA, undefeated, with Lew Alcindor against Elvin Hayes and the number-two ranked Houston Cougars. John:              It was the most widely televised athletic event for that time – the most widely televised, and there was about 52,000, they tell me, paid, but over 55,000 in there. Bob:                A few guys snuck in without paying, huh? (laughter)  Dennis:          What were you feeling?  I mean, did you feel anything any different about that game than any other game?   John:              No, I didn't.  I didn't think it was a place to play basketball – had that floor way out there, and you're a quarter of a mile from your dressing room.  I told me players that if they had needs to go to the bathroom, they better do it quick, because we're not going to have time for you to walk a quarter of a mile to go do it.  It was a tremendous ball game, and it was good for basketball, very good for basketball. Dennis:          As you have been a coach over the years, and a teacher, you have developed a definition of success and what you'd call the Pyramid of Success.  Could you just explain, just briefly, to our listeners the definition of success and what you've created here in this Pyramid of Success? John:              Well, first of all, as an English teacher, I became a little bit disappointed, disillusioned somewhat that parents of youngsters in my English classes – many, if they're youngster did not receive and A or a B in one way or another I found that many parents would make the youngster or the teacher feel that they had failed.  Now, our good Lord, in His infinite wisdom, didn't create us all alike as far as intelligence is concerned, any more than we're not alike as far as appearance or size or anything else.  Not everybody could earn an A or B, and I had youngsters that didn't that I thought did very well.  I'd be proud of them if I were the parent. But I didn't like that way of judging, and I wanted to come up with my own definition of success, and it came from three things.  One, my father tried to teach us to never try to be better than somebody else.  Always learn from others and never cease trying to be the best you can be.  That's under your control, and the other isn't, and if you get too involved and engrossed and concerned in regard to things over which you have no control, it will adversely affect the things over which you have control.   And I also recalled a discussion in class that we'd had many years before where success was discussed and most everyone went along with Mr. Webster's definition – "the accumulation of material possession or the attainment of position of power or prestige," or something of that sort.  And then I ran across a verse, and as you have indicated, I like verse, and I ran across this simple verse that said, "At God's footstool to confess, a poor soul knelt and bowed his head; 'I have failed,' he cried; the Master said 'Thou didst thy best.'  That is success."  I believe that's true. And from those three things I coined my own definition of success.  Success is peace of mind attained only through self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable, and you're the only one who will know that.  You can fool everybody else.  It's like character and reputation – your character – you're the only one that knows, and you're reputation is what you're perceived to be by others, but your character is what you really are. So that was what I wanted to use to help me become a better teacher and to give the youngsters under my supervision something to which to aspire other than just a higher mark or more points in some athletic endeavor, but it didn't seem to be serving a purpose for which I had hoped, and I had tried to analyze it, and I came to the conclusion that it would be much better if I came up with something you could see.  But it gave me an idea of a pyramid, and I started working on that, and I worked on it for the next 14 years.  But somehow the first two blocks I selected were the cornerstones, and if any structure is to have any real strength and solidity, it must have a strong foundation, and the cornerstones anchor it, and I used "industrious" and "enthusiasm," and I believe that today. From those two, and I think they're strong – you have to enjoy what you're doing, and you have to work hard.  You can't work near your own particular ability level unless you enjoy what you're doing.  You may think you are, but you can't unless you really enjoy it.  And, along with the foundation, I wanted blocks that included others, so I chose "friendship," "loyalty," and "cooperation," and then gradually moved up to the second tier – "self-control," "alertness," "initiative" and "intentness."  And then going up to the heart, which I call being in condition for whatever you're doing – whether you're an athlete, whether you're a surgeon, whether you're a deep-sea diver – whatever you are – being in condition for whatever you're doing can be attained by practicing moderation. And then you have to have the skills.  You must know how to do things, you must be able to do it, and you must be able to do them quickly, oftentimes.  Then "team spirit" – that's consideration for others.  I could talk on that for a long time – consideration for others.  And all these blocks below will help you become confident.  You can't have confidence unless you're prepared.  Failure to prepare is preparing to fail, and you can't have confidence without being prepared, or you can't have that without the blocks below. You must have confidence, and then you must have poise, and I also coined my own definition of poise and poise, to me, is just being yourself.  The person who has poise is not acting, they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not.  They are themselves, therefore, they are going to function in whatever they're doing near their own particular level of confidence.  There will be no fear, no trepidation at all.  They'll function near their own particular level of confidence, because they're not pretending, they're not trying to be something they're not. And all these blocks will make you competitive – competitive.  You'll enjoy it, you'll enjoy it.  There's joy in being involved in something difficult.  There's no great joy in doing things that anybody else can do, although they must be done to the best of your ability regardless of whether difficult or easy, but the joy comes in being involved in a difficult situation, and these blocks below will bring them up.  And then leading up to the apex on which success rests, I put on one side, "patience" and "faith."  Good things take time and should.  We don't want them to, but they should.  Things should take time, and we must have faith.  We must have faith that things will work out as they should, which doesn't mean that they'll work out exactly as we want them to.  But if we have faith, and we do what we should – too often we want things to happen a certain way, but we don't do the things that would necessarily help that become reality.  We just want it to happen.  But you have to have faith.  If you do what you should, things will work out as they should.  So that's a very brief synopsis of the pyramid. Dennis:          Well, I'm sitting here looking at the actual pyramid, Bob, and we're going to put it on the website as well – FamilyLife.com – and give folks a picture of this pyramid and what it exactly is, but he nailed it perfectly. Bob:                Without looking at it. Dennis:          Without looking at the copy I've got.  I just want to say, Coach, to you, thank you for living an exemplary life, for being a man who has taught many of us over your lifetime, and I just appreciate you joining Bob and me and cheering on some moms and dads and husbands and wives who are in the throes of raising the next generation of young people.  Thanks for helping us build a great team here on FamilyLife Today. John:              You're very kind, and I appreciate the kind words. Bob:                Well, that is the voice of legendary coach John Wooden who, today, is 92 years old, and undoubtedly on his way to catch the games this weekend and Monday night in the Final Four.  He said he's been to most of them, even since his retirement, and just to hear the humility in his voice.  That was characteristic of Coach Wooden all the way through his life, wasn't it? Dennis:          It really was and, again, I just had to go back to the Book of Proverbs and think about Solomon speaking to his son and exhorting him – "acquire understanding, embrace wisdom, listen to the words of your father.  Heed them, and you'll live.  If you don't, you'll be a fool, and you'll die."  And Coach Wooden has exhorted us over the past couple of days to heed well our assignments in life, whether we be single, married, parents, grandparents, but to leave a legacy.                         You remember, Bob, I told our listeners that there was a story I was going to conclude today with that is a real favorite, and I want to do that in just a moment, but I want you to tell our listeners how they can get a copy of this CD that we're making available for – not just the basketball players, but for dads and for coaches of any and every sport that your children may know. Bob:                It's actually a two-CD set that features our entire conversation with Coach Wooden, much of which we were not able to include over the last three days here on FamilyLife Today.  This hour-and-47-minute conversation took place not long ago as we sat down with Coach Wooden and just probed issues relating to his life, his marriage, his family, his coaching, and his view of success, and it's a great tool to pass on, as you said, Dennis, to players, to coaches, to enthusiasts, to fans.  It's a great way to open a door and begin to talk with them about what makes up true greatness in a life and in a profession. Dennis:          You may want to consider getting multiple copies of these CDs because you really only heard about half of the material, over the last three days, that are on these sets that we recorded. Bob:                You can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY to request the two-CD set.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  You can also go online to order at FamilyLife.com.  While you're online, you can see John Wooden's Pyramid of Success.  The Coach sat down, and he has got the mind of an engineer and the soul of a poet, and he laid out for us a pyramid, where he said here's what I think real success looks like, and how you achieve competitive greatness.  It's built on poise and confidence and then on conditioning and skill and team spirit.  He lays out all of the qualities that make up real success.                          We've got a video where Coach explains that success pyramid along with a mousepad that has the pyramid on it and a pocket-sized card you can carry along that has some of Coach Wooden's counsel on how to live on this wallet-size card.  It would be a great gift to give to somebody who loves the sport, loves The Coach.  You can call 1-800-FLTODAY for more information about these resources or about the two-CD set of our interviews with Coach Wooden.  Again, it's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  Dennis. Dennis:          I mentioned a story that I was going to share about – at the end of our interview, we got up to leave, and Coach Wooden was using a cane to kind of make his way to the elevator, and he gave me a book and you, too, I believe, Bob, and I took the book, and it was about leadership, and I said, "Coach, would you just mind signing that to me, and as you did, Coach," I said, "you don't know this about me, but I was pretty good in high school.  I set the school record, which still stands, for most points scored.  I played junior college basketball on scholarship and, Coach, I remember watching you as a kid growing up," and I said, "If you wouldn't mind, Coach, would you just write in the front – 'To Dennis – you could have played for me at UCLA.  Signed, Coach John Wooden,' and then date it."                         He looked up at me, and a little mischievous grin worked its way across his lips, and he said, "Dennis, we just talked about integrity, didn't we?  I can't do that."  He said, "But here," and he reached up, kind of in a spry way and took the book from my hands, and began to write, and he was just getting a bigger and bigger grin as he wrote, and he closed the cover and handed it back to me and said, "There you go."  And I now have that book in my office.  It says, "To Dennis – Since I never recruited out of state, why didn't you call me?  Coach John Wooden."  That will be one of my prized possessions in everything that I own. Bob:                FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Serving the Hurting Guest:                         Katie Davis Majors               From the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: As a single mother, a parent to 13 adopted children, Katie Davis Majors was surprised when a young man, also living in Uganda, began pursuing her.  Katie: He asked me out twice; and it was in the middle of, I think, just a hard season for me personally. Both times I said, “No”; and the second time, I really said like, firmly, “No”—like, “Hey,”— Barbara: “Don't ask again now.”   Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay. We can't—we can't do that. No. No; thank you.”   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, December 20th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How Katie Majors went from a firm “No,” to becoming Mrs. Benji Majors—we'll hear that story today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I want to meet Benji Majors sometime; don't you?   Dennis: I do!   Bob: I mean, I just want to meet the guy who was persistent and met a determined young woman and was determined to win her.  Dennis: I want to hear the story of whether or not he went to Uganda in search of Katie Davis, author of Kisses from Katie. [Laughter]  Bob: I'm just curious about Benji. You told us earlier that there was a guy who was living out in the house behind your house. You called Benji and said, “Would you want to come disciple him?”  Benji said, “Sure.”  I'm thinking: “Yes; Benji wanted to take you out. I would have come and discipled him and say, ‘I'll be there every day to disciple him if it gets me a little closer to you.'”  Do you think that was in the back of his mind?   Katie: At that point, no; I don't think so. [Laughter]   Dennis: Are you sure though?   Katie: No!  [Laughter]   Barbara: Yes; that was a hesitant yes. So, yes; I think that's right.  2:00   Dennis: Well, Katie is the author of a new book, Daring to Hope. She is now married. She is a mom of 14—13 of whom—a baker's dozen of Ugandan little girls, who are becoming, even against Katie's will, young ladies. They are growing up— Katie: Yes. Isn't that true?   Dennis: —growing up on her here.  I want to ask you my favorite question, but I'm going to ask you to wait to answer it— Katie: Okay.  Dennis: —until the end of the broadcast. Here is my question: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all of your life?”  Now, don't answer right now—I'm going to give you a moment to think about it—but courage is doing your duty in the face of fear.  I've got a sneaking suspicion, because of your book, Daring to Hope, that you've got a definition or two that comes from your book that you'd share with our listeners; but to get there, what I want to first have you do is tell us about the woman who had five children, who was dying of TB and HIV, who came to you.  3:00 Her name was Katherine. Tell our listeners that story of how you cared for her.  Katie: Katherine came to live with us when she became very ill. Her five children, under the age of ten, were sponsored by Amazima; so we were paying for their school.  Dennis: Okay; let's just stop here. Amazima is an organization you run in Uganda.  Katie: Yes. We—our goal is really to disciple families and to empower the families to stay together. About 80 percent of children in institutions in East Africa actually have one living parent; and they end up institutionalized just due to financial poverty. Their parents cannot afford to pay for them to go to school, or to pay for their medical care, or to pay for their food; so they send them to these institutions.  That was something that was very shocking to me the first year that I lived in Uganda, and I really desired to try to change the system.  4:00 Through financial sponsorship of school fees, and some food, and some basic medical provision, Amazima works to keep these children with their biological family members; but of course, the heartbeat of our organization is really that, in doing that, we would form a relationship with these families and lead them to Christ.  Dennis: Katherine was one of those moms who had experienced the care of your organization.  Katie: Yes; so we were in relationship with her and had known her for a few years through her children; and she just got sicker and sicker to the point where she wasn't really able to take care of her children very well. She moved over to our house so that I could help her out with her children and, also, because our house is very close to the local hospital, and she needed a little more immediate access to medical care. We were just down the street from the doctor she was seeing.  They lived with us for several months. I truly, really, believed that God was going to heal her of her illness—that she would become healthy and strong again.  5:00 I had imagined it in my head—the happy ending, where she would move out with her children.  We always throw a bit of a celebration for people who have lived with us for a season and get to move out on their own again. We've had many families, especially struggling single mothers, live with us over the years. We always have a big celebration when they become well, or they finally find a job, or their child is finally healthy enough, and they can move out. I really thought that that would be the case with Katherine and her family as well; and she did get better for some time, but then she began to deteriorate very quickly.  Dennis: She passed away.  Katie: She did.  Dennis: You compared your experience to the prophet Habakkuk and how he had to deal with some disappointments as well. You learned through that disappointment that there isn't always a happy ending to the story—but in this case, there was a happy ending to the story because— Katie: Right.  6:00 Dennis: —she went to heaven.  Katie: Yes; absolutely. That's what Habakkuk says—right?—that though the olive crop fails, though the leaves wither, though there are no sheep in the pen—basically, even if I can't see it, still I will hope / still I will rejoice in God my Savior. I felt like that was something God was teaching me in a season where I had really thought we would see it—we would see a happy ending where she stayed alive. God showed me—still I can rejoice, even though things didn't go my way.  Barbara: I remember discovering that verse when our children were teenagers. They were starting to kind of press the limits a little bit and push back on us. I discovered that verse, and I thought, “This is a perfect verse for a mother— Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“of children of all ages; but especially, teenagers.”  I think the oldest was only 15 at the time; but I remember, when I read that, I just hung on to that because I thought: “Lord, there is no guarantee— 7:00 Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“that all the best parenting, all the prayer—none of that guarantees that my children will choose You, they will choose to live a good life, they will be responsible / they'll be productive. They're no guarantees. It could all fail. It could all be gone. Will I trust You if You do that?”  It was a real turning point in my life; because I said, “Okay; God, I will. I will choose to believe You even if none of my children flourish / there is no green on the vine.”    Katie: And isn't that the hardest part of parenting— Barbara: Absolutely.  Katie: —is just that moment when you realize, “Even if I do everything perfectly,”—which I'm not— Barbara: Which we're not—none of us do.  Katie: —“but even if I did,— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —“there is no guarantee— Barbara: None.  Dennis: No.  Katie: —“there is going to be any fruit here. There's no guarantee that these—that they are going to choose Christ in their own lives, and they have to choose it for themselves.”  That's the scariest part of it for sure!   Barbara: Yes; exactly, because it's not something that we can do for them.  Katie: No.  8:00 Bob: Bryan Loritts, who is a pastor in Northern California, who is a part of The Art of Parenting video series that's coming out before long, makes the observation: “God is a perfect Father. God has rebellious children.”   Barbara: Yes; lots of rebellious children. [Laughter]  Katie: Yes.  Bob: So, think about that—here's a perfect Father with rebel kids. Why should we think that we, as imperfect parents, will be spared a little rebellion in our home?—right?   Katie: Right.  Dennis: No doubt about it. Just as Barbara was talking about, we have learned a bunch about God's love for us as we have loved our kids and watched them struggle in their faith, from time to time.  Katie, I know from reading your book that you have learned a lot about the love of God through the 14 children that you have.  Katie: Oh, absolutely; because even—you know, as a parent, you see so clearly that, even when you are disciplining your children, it's not out of this place of anger toward them or hatred toward them— 9:00 —it's out of such this place of love and a desire for good things to come in their lives.  I think I've understood so much more that—when God disciplines me in my own life, when God tells me to go in a direction that I don't really feel like I want to go, or when God even brings me through a difficult time—it is His love that does that to shape me, to change me, to teach me; because He wants good things for me. I think, as parents, when we feel that love for our children, we can see it so much more clearly from God's vantage point.  Dennis: Yes; I really agree.  Katie, before we get too far away from the story of Katherine, who died, and her five children—what happened to those five?  Did you adopt them?   Katie: I didn't. They did stay with us for a little while, immediately following her death.  10:00 Then, we placed them with a biological aunt, who they lived with for some time; but that situation was never really good. The aunt was very young, and she was also struggling. She didn't have any biological children, so she had never parented before; and the children were really suffering there with her. We would provide food, and we would drive out there to visit them; but it just never seemed to be a good situation.  I was just getting desperate, just praying, asking the Lord what I should do. I mean, the idea of having five more children come to my house was a lot. At the same time, I was not clearly seeing another option. They were a sibling set of five—like there aren't many families that are willing to take that on, even in the foster care system.  I had gone to visit my friend, Rose. Before I started talking, she said, “You know, my daughter Helen”—who had been a good friend of my daughters and was in and out of our house a lot—she said:  11:00 “My daughter told me about what happened to the mom of those kids. I'm so sorry. God's just put it on my heart to really pray for them; but also, just to ask you: ‘Is there anything they need?—even, maybe, do they need a place to go?'”   Of course, I like start to weep and just said: “Oh, I can't even tell you—that has been on my heart all week. I've been praying.”  I was even just telling a good friend of mine earlier that same day—like, “I do not know what we're going to do for these children, but I feel like—I told their mom, before she died, that I would make sure they were okay. It feels like a lot of responsibility.”   Rose and I talked for several more hours that day about what it would mean for her to start fostering them. About a month later, we went through all the paperwork process; and social workers visited with both families.  12:00 About a month later, we are able to help move Katherine's five children into Rose's home.  Barbara: Wow.  Dennis: You know, I just marvel at your acts of courage to care for Katherine as she died, to care for her children after she died, and also your courage in developing a relationship with a young man called Benji.  Bob: Yes; you talked about how unusual it is for somebody to take five kids in as foster kids. [Laughter]   Katie: That is a little ironic; isn't it?   Barbara: Yes; it is.  Bob: How unusual is it for a young man to say, “I'm going to be the husband to a mom of 13?!”   Katie: Yes; it's not usual.  Barbara: It's not normal.  Dennis: So, he asked you out twice before you said, “Yes.”   Katie: He did. He asked me out a couple of times; and both times, I said, “No.”  The second time, I really said, like firmly, “No,”—like, “Hey,— Barbara: Like “Don't-ask-again” no?   13:00  Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay.”  [Laughter] Dennis: It was a “Dear John.”   Katie: “We can't do that. I'm—no. No; thank you.”   So, then, really, after that, I think I got to watch his heart on display a lot more; because I trusted that he wasn't going to ask me again. He was very respectful in that—he didn't really come over as much after that. He was still discipling the man that lived in the back of our yard, but he would come—he would go straight to Mack. He would spend his time with him, and he would leave. He would not come say, “Hello,” to me / he would not try to make conversation. I mean, I felt very respected in that—that he didn't. He heard what I said, and he didn't push the boundaries.  I got to watch him and his heart for people, and for service, and truly for the gospel through that. He was also attending this large Bible study that we all went to on Wednesday nights.  14:00 He often led worship or even led the teaching at that Bible study. I was just—I was so attracted to his heart for the Lord. I was telling my good friend, like: “Oh my gosh. I think I like him; but now, I can't tell him; because he's never going to ask—he's not going to ask me out again. There is no hope.”  So, I did—I had to call him and ask him if he would come over for coffee; and he said, “No.” [Laughter]  Barbara: He didn't want to risk it again; huh?   Katie: Well, yes!  I mean, I had said so— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —clearly that I didn't want to date him. What was he going to be doing having coffee with me?  Why would you have coffee with a young, single female that wasn't going to date you?  [Laughter]  So, I had to beg and plead a little bit, you know: “Please, I need to talk to you about something important. Can you come?  Can we just—can we just have a cup of coffee?”  So, he finally said, “Yes.”   Dennis: Oh no!  You've got to say— Barbara: And he said?   Dennis: Yes?—what happened over the cup of coffee?   Katie: Well, then, I was so nervous.  15:00 I made like dumb small talk the whole time; right?  So, after about an hour, he's looking at his watch; and he's like— Barbara: “Okay?”   Katie: —“Okay; well, this was nice. I think I'm going to go.”  So, then, I just kind of blurted out some words that probably didn't even make sense—like: “You know, I was thinking / I was wondering if, maybe—do you want to like—we could spend more time together, you know, intentionally; you know?”   Barbara: Real coherent; right?   Katie: Right; exactly. He's just kind of looking at me; and finally, he said, “Like—like dating?”  I said, “Well, yes.”  He said, “Okay; I'm going to pray about that,” and he left!  [Laughter]   Dennis: He didn't go for the bait!   Katie: What I didn't know, at the time—which is amazingly the Lord's provision and just further confirmation that we both really were trying to seek after Him— 16:00 —was that he had been in conversation, earlier that week, with some of his supporters in the States about whether or not his time in Uganda was coming to a close. He felt like he had pretty effectively discipled these 30 men. They were all kind of going out into the world and starting churches and discipling other young men. He felt like: “Okay; I could kind of take under my wing another group,” or “I could just keep in touch with this group via Skype and internet. Maybe, my time here is coming to a close.”   He had been in conversation with people about whether or not he was moving back when he got my phone call asking him to come to coffee. What I didn't know, when he said he needed to pray about this, was this was a much bigger decision than “Am I going to date this girl?”  This was a decision for him of: “Is there more of life for me in Uganda right now?”   17:00 Dennis: And so, how long did you date?   Katie: Probably, almost a year from that point until we got engaged; and then, we were engaged for about eight months.  Dennis: Time out. How did he propose?   Katie: It was so sweet. He actually—he's such a good dad—he took all the girls out for ice cream earlier in the week. He just said to me like—and he would do this sometimes—he would say: “I'm going to take the girls out to eat,” or “I'm going to take them down to the river to play for a little bit so that you can get some quiet.” He had taken the girls out for ice cream and took them over to his house, actually, and sat them all down and said: “I would like to propose to your mom. What do you think about that?”  They all gave feedback; and then, he let them help him plan how he would propose to me.  Dennis: Wow.  Barbara: That's so sweet!   Katie: He showed them the ring, and he let them— Barbara: So sweet.  Katie: —he let it be a family affair, which I just loved that he knew my heart well enough to know that I would have felt like something was missing if they hadn't been a part of that.  18:00 Actually, our best friends came to babysit the girls; and he took me back over to his place. There was a picnic laid out—his yard is kind of right on the edge of the lake that we live nearby—and he proposed. Then, as soon as I said, “Yes,” all our girls came running out of the bushes. They had watched the whole thing.  Barbara: Oh how sweet!  Oh, I love it.  Katie: They were so excited, and they had picked flowers. They were throwing them on us—it was so sweet.  Barbara: So, did anybody capture any photos of that—I hope?   Katie: No.  Barbara: I'm just thinking, “Oh, I wish I could have seen that.”  It just sounds delightful.  Dennis: Great video.  Katie: I know!   Barbara: Even just a few still photographs.  Katie: It was so dark, but it's like seared in my memory forever!     Barbara: I'm sure it is; yes.  Dennis: So, back to my original question, at the beginning of the broadcast: “Katie Davis Majors, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?”   19:00 Katie: That is a hard question, but I think—I think the most courageous thing that I have ever done is to trust God when I can't see what He's doing. I don't think that's a courage that has come from me. I think that God, Himself, has allowed me the grace to continue to trust Him.  I think that that's the most courageous thing that any of us can do—is to continue to put our hope and our trust in God, even when we don't really feel like it. He has shown me that that hope does not disappoint me because, even when I don't get what I want, I get more of Him—I get to know Him more / I get to know sides of Him that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't scooted up next to Him like that.  Bob: So, you're saying, even if the olive tree is barren— Katie: Yes!   Bob: —and the leaves are withering— 20:00 —to say, “I'm still going to trust Him.”  That's where real courage comes from.  Katie: I think that that is real courage.  Dennis: As you were talking, I couldn't help but think of this passage in Romans, Chapter 5.  Katie: I love this one.  Dennis: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces—  Katie: —“hope.”   Dennis: —“hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”   Katie: Yes!   Dennis: God in you—changing you.  Katie: Yes.  Dennis: Great answer to the question.  Katie: Thanks.  Bob: Well, and there is a lot of courage that shows up in the book that you've written called Daring to Hope. It's a book that tells the story of how God has been with you in the midst of suffering / how you've seen His goodness in the brokenness of where you live and work.  21:00 I would encourage our listeners: Get a copy of Katie's book, Daring to Hope. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   You know, one of the things that, Dennis, both you and I love to hear are stories of redemption—people whose lives were broken / headed in the wrong direction—they were in the ditch, as you like to say—and God intervenes and turns them in a new direction and points them in a new direction—turns their whole life around. Recently, we got a chance to meet with a number of listeners, who said FamilyLife Today was a part of their redemption story.   22:00 Some of the stories we heard were just remarkable.  I was sitting there, thinking, “I wish our Legacy Partners / I wish the folks who help support this ministry could be here with us, hearing these stories, because that's what you're giving to when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.”  You're helping us reach more people more regularly with practical biblical help and hope.  And here, as 2017 is drawing to a close, I know some of you are thinking about possible yearend donations to ministries like ours. There is a special opportunity for you to give over the next couple of weeks—it's a matching-gift fund that's been established for this ministry. Michelle Hill is here with details on how we're doing with that matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle!   23:00 Michelle: Hey Bob…well by now many folks have heard that the match fund has more than doubled (it's now 4.3 million dollars) but the real important number is one, as in that one person listening right now and deciding to give…and maybe you're that one? J   I mean really Bob, the match isgoing to be met one gift at a time…and so far over five thousand people have made that decision. So, thanks to each one…like Don from Canton, Ohio? Today we're at NINE HUNDRED SEVENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS...which is great! BUT…if we're going to take full advantage of the match, we'll need a lot of other ones to pray and then give as God leads. Bob: Well, and if you'd like to be a part of helping us take full advantage of the matching gift, you can make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate—1-800-358-6329 is the number—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  24:00 And if you haven't sent us a Christmas card yet, send a Christmas card and just tuck something inside; okay?   And I hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we're going to hear a conversation we had, not long ago, with our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. This is a remarkable couple who God used in a significant way to help birth the ministry of FamilyLife all the way back in 1976. I hope you can tune in and meet our friends, Don and Sally Meredith.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind  Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled.  John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord.  Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is.  In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear.  It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people.  I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here.  But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water.  This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God.  This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about.  This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today.  They were married back in 1974.  John is a pastor and an evangelist.  They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind.  They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day.  I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told.  And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna."  When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything.  I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her.  Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna.  What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay.  We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church.  We enjoyed everything was going great.  We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life.  You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital."  So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that.  One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there.  And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?"  And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna:  No, sir.  You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna:  Yes, sir.  And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir.  It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you.  How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't.  When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married."  And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move.  I wasn't blind then.  I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it.  I said, "Marry?  Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good.  I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true.  Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me.  But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't.  I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter]  Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did.  He's a pretty good student.  Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know?  Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased.  There is no data left there."  To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it.  Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know?  It was hard.  It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take?  I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was.  I thank the Lord.  I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life.  And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know?  And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind.  In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know?  Okay, we've got a problem here.  We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me.  And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis?  Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk.  You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were.  That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read.  And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good.  My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me."  It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me.  And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did.  She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain.  It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading.  Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either?  I said, "What am I?"  She said, "You a preacher."  I said, "What a preacher is?"  And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know."  I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that.  You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?"  And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read."  Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to.  So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening.  Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God."  And I'd gotten a little worried.  You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord."  So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child.  That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word.  That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date.  I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that.  God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page.  I was brought up in a lost home.  My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive.  She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home.  She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord.  You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved."  And I said, "Stella, what would this be?"  She said, "It would be 12."  And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was.  And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood.  I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy."  She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter]  Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through.  This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?"  Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced?  It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband.  I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly.  I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind.  It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant."  Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things."   The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article."  Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD?  We've got friends we want to send it to.  There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You."  This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u.  And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You."  We're happy to send it to you.  We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well.  Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow.  We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased.  I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life Aboard the Space Station Guest:                         Barry Wilmore                       From the series:       Life Aboard the Space Station (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This could get a little tricky today. I'm not sure— Houston: Hello, this is Houston Comm Tech.  Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey with FamilyLife Today.  Bob: And Bob Lepine. Houston, can you hear us?   Houston: I hear you very low.  Bob: Low?  Not loud and clear?   Houston: Okay, you're coming in a little bit louder. Please standby.   Bob: Do I need to say, “Over”?   Houston: Okay, this is Comm Tech with a second voice-take on private three; now copy.  Bob: Hi, Comm Tech. How's the sound now?  Better?   Houston: Sounds better. Please stand by for a moment.  Bob: Okay.  Dennis: Alright.  Bob: I'm getting the sense that you don't make jokes with Houston Comm Tech or anybody else in Houston.  Dennis: Well, we're speaking to NASA.  Bob: They are a little focused on the mission.  Dennis: And folks, this is not a joke. That really is— Bob: Yes.  Dennis: —Houston NASA Control Center.  Bob: And here is the thing. Some of our listeners recognize that, back last fall, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Captain Barry Wilmore and his wife Deanna just before Barry blasted off from a launch pad in Russia— 1:00 Dennis: A Soyuz rocket.  Bob: —going up to take command of the International Space Station, which is where he is today.  Dennis: And we also recorded, without Deanna knowing, a 20th Anniversary greeting.   Bob: Yes, Barry called us from the space station, back in early December—December 3rd was their anniversary— Dennis: Right.  Bob: —their 20th Anniversary. We had him, at the end of the program, sharing anniversary greetings.  Dennis: And he sent me an email, after that happened, and said: “Dennis, thank you for allowing me to do that. My daughter actually took a video.” I don't know how they do this, Bob—but they showed the video back to him on the space station. He is in the International Space Station, right now. He had a conversation—and he said, “My daughter showed my wife weeping— Bob: As she listened?   Dennis: —“as she listened to my 20th Anniversary greetings.”  Bob: And we're trying to work things out now. I think this is going to work, where Houston is setting us up so that we can talk to Captain Wilmore—  2:00 Dennis: —on the International Space Station.  Bob: Right.  Dennis: He— Barry: FamilyLife Today, hello. Hello, from the International Space Station. You guys out there?   Bob: Unbelievable!  Is it really you?   Barry: Hi, Bob! Hi, Dennis!   Bob: And how many bars do you have on your phone right now?  [Laughter]   Barry: Hopefully, enough!   Dennis: Amazing!   Bob: It is amazing that we're talking to you!   Barry: Well, thank you all for your program—it's fabulous.  Dennis: Would you mind looking out your window and telling us what you're seeing right now?   Barry: If I'm not mistaken—I didn't look at a map—but if I'm not mistaken, based on what I've seen, I believe that's Australia going by below me.  Bob: Wow!  [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, Butch, you're looking at the earth as few men or women ever get a chance to see it. What's a unique perspective you've had, just from outer space?  This is your second time to be in orbit. Any thoughts come to your mind as you glance at the globe of six billion people?   Barry: Very interesting question. You know, when I was here before—when I flew five years ago— 3:00 —it was a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions were fast and furious—it was 11 days. I think the most time I ever had to stick my nose in the window was about 20 minutes. That really wasn't long enough—it was wonderful—don't get me wrong. But now, to have the opportunity to really, no kidding, poke my nose in the window for very extended periods of time, it's truly amazing and truly breathtaking. It makes me in awe of my Lord and Savior and Creator—I mean—beyond words.  I can't explain—you can't explain the view. You can't—I mean, you can see pictures / you can see video—and they do a little bit to show what the beauty of the earth and the globe is from here; but to see it with your own eyes and realize that it's controlled by a sovereign God—like I said, it's beyond words.  Bob: Tell us what a day is like onboard the Space Station. First of all, what time zone are you in?   Barry: Yes, we work under GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, which is the same time as London.  Before I answer that question— 4:00 —let me say that / I want it to be clear—it is an amazing place, and it's an amazing view. It is an amazing thing to be here. I wake up every morning, and I float down the tube. I'm like: “Lord, I can't believe I'm here. This is just amazing!  It's thrilling.”   But I did not need to come here to know my Lord / to know my God. I mean—all that I could ever know / could ever want to know—I gleaned from the Words of Scripture. So, I didn't have to come here to find my Lord. He's in the Word—that's where He resides—and that's where He speaks to us from.  Okay, again, your question?   Bob: Just tell me about what a day is like for you onboard the space station.  Barry: Well, the days are pretty busy as you would imagine. I'm kind of a morning guy—I get up early. I get up around 4:30 or 5:00. We're not required, but it's very highly encouraged that we work out a great deal. We get about two and half hours a day scheduled to work out—we have resistance exercise.  So, that's how I start my day.  5:00 The resistance exercise machine is actually positioned right below the main window, which is called the cupola in the Space Station. I can lay there and do my work-out and see the beauty of the world go by. For instance, just this very morning, I'm working out—I look up, and there goes the nation of Israel by the window. It's the first time since I've been here that we've flown directly over the top. It was wonderful to look down and see the—from that vantage point—to see the places where our Lord walked when He was on earth—so, it was great. Anyway, that's the way my day starts.  Then, of course, the rest of it begins. It's a busy, busy place with a lot of various things going on—science, working payloads, plant seedling growth or crystal growth, working with the fish—we had fish up here. Some of them went back when the last Soyuz went back—and experiments with those. And the list goes on, and on, and on—combustion science. I mean—and that's just one day.  6:00 Then, there'll be things that will break; and we'll have to fix—that's ongoing. Of course, we have to do a spacewalk. We go out and do some things outside—that was amazing as well. So, the variety, and the opportunity, and the things that we do is varied—it's really neat.  Bob: I'm just curious if they still have Tang® onboard the Space Station—you know—because I grew up—it was all about astronauts and Tang. Do you even know what I'm talking about?   Barry: I know exactly what you're talking about—I sure do!  I don't know that it's made by people that make Tang, but it's like that—it's a powdered drink. That's all we have, basically. It's in little pouches, and we put water in it—it fires it up. It's quite tasty—I enjoy it in various flavors.  Bob: So, breakfast, or lunch, or dinner—what are your meals like onboard the Space Station?    Barry: The food is prepared a little differently—so, it does give it a different taste—and we're big on condiments here. [Laughter]  Condiments are huge!  So, you can make anything taste decent with the right amount of condiments. [Laughter]  But you know, breakfast— 7:00 —eggs, sausage links, and patties. I mean, we've got those that we rehydrate. We've got soups. We don't have salads; but we have soups, and vegetables, and meats—a varied variety of those. It's really good—I enjoy the food. Then, again, I'm not a good guy to ask if food is good because, when I was on deployment on the aircraft carrier, I even liked ship food. There are not many people that like ship food. [Laughter]   Dennis: Other than your family, what do you miss most while being in outer space?   Barry: There is only one thing that I miss. I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you why I don't miss anything else. It is because it is such a unique place. To pine for something that I can't have—like a hamburger, or French fries, or something like that—there's no reason for that because everything else just overwhelms that.  The one thing that I don't have here—that I not only want but I need—is church. The Lord gave us His church. He gave it to us because He knew that we needed it.  8:00 We need it for our encouragement, for learning / obviously, for worship—admonishment at times. That's the one thing that I can't have here. I try to supplement that. I have messages from my home church that are sent to me weekly—and I listen to those—but it's not the same as being there and the fellowship with the body. That's the one thing that I do miss.  Bob: And you'd include FamilyLife Today in there as well; right?   Barry: Absolutely! [Laughter] Absolutely.  Dennis: Butch, I emailed you this morning. I just wonder, “How long does it take for my email to get to you?”   Barry: Now, that's varied as well. Sometimes, it gets here immediately. At other times, it takes days. It gets stuck in a hopper somewhere, and it won't get here for a couple of days. So, it's varied. Mostly, it's pretty good though.  Bob: What can you tell us about the rest of the crew—the guys you are working with?   Barry: Well, my Russian crewmates—that I launched in the Soyuz with—will be here the whole six months together. Alexander Samokutyaev is a military pilot from the Russian Air Force, and Elena Serova is a female engineer that was selected as a cosmonaut several years ago.  9:00 It's a great group of people to be around. We've trained a lot on earth together; and being with them here is fabulous as well.  Dennis: Do you speak Russian?   Barry: You know, I jokingly say, “I speak two languages fluently, and one I speak a little bit.”  I speak English, and I speak Tennessee. Then, I know a little bit of Russian. [Laughter]  Bob: But in that kind of environment—where you are living together / you're working together—I mean, you don't have anybody else to talk to other than your comrades onboard the Space Station and your comm link back to Houston. Relationships—maintaining healthy relationships—that's got to be a part of the mission; isn't it?   Barry: It is. One of the things that is good—again, that NASA does well is / like you mentioned—email. I've got friends and relationships that I've built over the years. Being able to maintain contact with those individuals via email is really—it's wonderful.  10:00 There is also—you know, I was able to send out and have 300 or so people on a friends and family website. They put some stuff on the website—like the spacewalk I did, and pictures, and whatnot. I've typed up a few things that go to that website to maintain contact with them. The people who are able to access that website can also send me messages. So, that's very helpful.  Dennis: One of the things that I did a little a research on is the massive number of people that form the NASA team—that, ultimately, slings you guys into outer space and cares for your well-being while you are out there. I'd just be fascinated to hear your thoughts about teamwork and lessons you've learned that are, literally, out of this world.  Barry: Oh, you are right. You can't—we can't have success in just about anything in life without teamwork. That's certainly the case here on the International Space Station. Yes, we're the bodies that get to climb into the rocket, and they launch, and come up here and do these wonderful things in a wonderful environment—  11:00 —it's true—but these experiments, these payloads, these procedures that I run daily—they don't exist without the team. The things that we're doing / the things that we're accomplishing up here do not happen without the team. I'm just, honestly, a small part of the team when it comes to a lot of the things that I do.  There's a mountain of people that put their passion and their life's work into much of the things that I work on here. You know, some of the experiments—there are individuals that—this is literally—literally—some of them, it's their life's work—things that they've been working on for decades—and here it is in my hands. I take that seriously, and it's a great amount of responsibility. You know, I appreciate them for what they do—the effort they've put into jobs to make some things easier for me. I'm sure they appreciate the things that we do as well. It doesn't exist without that cohesiveness, like you mentioned.  Dennis: You need to know we have a ton of young folks who listen, dreaming dreams/aspirations for their own lives.  12:00 Have you got something you'd like to say to them about what they need to be cultivating as they grow up and, hopefully, put some feet to their dreams?   Barry: One thing that comes to mind is—for me, anyway—the parable of the talents. The lord gave some more than others, but there was a certain expectation for whatever they were given. I think that, as we live our life, that we need to realize that wherever we are / whatever we are doing, we exist for His glory—that's why we're here. With whatever He's given us, we need to maximize and do the best we can with that for His glory. Do what you are passionate about / do what you love—and remember that you do everything you do for His glory.  Bob: Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. I know you all were expecting a supply delivery—that there was a little bit of a hitch. Can you tell us what happened and how you've had to adjust, as a result?   13:00 Barry: Yes, there was a mishap with a launch vehicle that was bringing cargo to us. For me, personally, there have been minor adjustments. The reason—and we've talked about it just a second ago—is the team. The team on the ground that works all of those issues have worked feverishly to make sure that we have everything that we need.  They planned ahead so we'd have a stockpile of things that we wouldn't be put in a bind on anything. There is only one or two items that were even just slightly short on because the team has been working and doing their jobs. And the team—as soon as it happened—they were at work, getting ready and planning and seeing how we go forward from there.  Bob: Were you anxious at all when you got the news that the supply vehicle had been damaged?   Barry: We were actually watching it, live, as it launched; and we saw what had happened. You know, our first thoughts, like anything—it's a clear range, and there is nobody there—but you still—there is always a chance that something will go astray. Your first thought is, “Could anybody have been injured?”   14:00 Of course, thankfully, that wasn't the case. When there is no individual harm that takes place—cargo and stuff—you can replace all of that. In that light, it's minor.  Dennis: Butch, I want you to give our listeners an idea of how big this thing is that you are screaming around the earth in.  Barry: Total size—if you think about two football fields—it's about as long as a football field and about as wide as a football field. The structure inside—they say that the size and the volume is like five buses that you would connect together. We have various modules, and I can tell you it is wide open space—it's not like the capsule I launched in. The Soyuz capsule is very small. The shuttle, with respect to the Space Station—the living space in that was fairly small—but this is huge / it's wide open.  And you're right—flying around—even inside here, weightlessly, is such a kick. It is really, really amazing. As a matter of fact, I just flipped around and am standing on the ceiling now— 15:00 —or what we call the ceiling because there really is no up and down. [Laughter]  Now, I'm standing on the bulkhead—on the wall. [Laughter]  Dennis: There are some kids, right now, going, “Oh, could I go up there and join him for that?!”  So, have you ever spilled anything up there?   Barry: It's great to watch water droplets and whatnot—so, yes, I spill it often, intentionally, because it's neat to watch. [Laughter]   Bob: I would like to be weightless just for a day.  Dennis: I could use some weightlessness.   Captain Wilmore, you have done a number of deployments in your service for the Navy. You have any coaching for dads who travel a lot?  Maybe, they don't go to outer space, but they're gone three or four days a week or a good number of days throughout the month—any coaching for them about caring for their wives and their children in the midst of that?   Barry: I think the thing that I would say from my standpoint—and what I've tried to do myself—is always think about biblical principles—you know, raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and teach them God's Word.  16:00 That's what I do with my daughters, and that's what my wife and I do together.  I think a big part of that is preparing, especially when the children are younger—I've got a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old. We did a great deal of preparation for this separation time—discussing it and talking about it. My number one message to my daughters, and I even say it when I call them now, is: “Help Mommy.” We also—my wife homeschools—so, the follow-up slogan to that is: “Help your teacher. The principal may be out of town for a while, but he's coming back!”  [Laughter]   Dennis: So, that's a setup. Do you want to say anything to those girls of yours?—any words from Daddy to a daughter?  I know you get to talk to them too, but here is a chance to both brag on them and exhort them with a few hundred thousand, if not a million, listeners across the country.  17:00 Barry: Yes, both of my daughters are taking piano lessons—my youngest just started. I want you to know, girls—Darren and Logan—Daddy loves—loves—to hear you play the piano. I thank you when you practice, and I thank you when you play over the phone so I can even hear you from here—so, thank you for that. I want you to know that Daddy is very proud of both of you. And I, also, want you to know that the slogan is the same in this message too: “Help Mommy / help your teacher.”  [Laughter]   Dennis: Well said by a dad. Way to go!  Is there a question you'd like to be asked that's a favorite question for you to answer?   Barry: I think, you know, it's less about me / more about my Lord is where I would try to orient any question: “What drives you?”—maybe. What really, truly drives me is my desire to live according to what the Lord has laid out in His Word that we should do— 18:00 —and to glorify Him—and that's the main driver. So, that would be the question: “What drives you?” and that's the answer.  Bob: You have time in your schedule to include spiritual disciplines and to keep your spiritual self in shape; right?   Barry: Absolutely; yes, sir.  Bob: So, what are you doing in space—I know you have an opportunity to read your Bible, and you mentioned reviewing messages from church. Anything else that you are doing to just stay connected to Christ?   Barry: The Lord gave me something a few years ago that I have been continuing. It wasn't something I set out to do—it just kind of happened—and that is that I started sending out a devotion to just a couple of people daily / every single day. Over the years, the Lord grew that distribution list. I don't know how many people are on it now—I haven't counted—it's probably 70 or so different emails that I send out.  So, I do that every day—preparing the devotion to send out to those 70 individuals.  19:00 Also, I have it posted on my friends and family website. So that, right there, is something that the Lord has given me to keep me in His Word, and keep me studying, and keep me growing—and for that, I am grateful.  Dennis: I just want our listeners to think about where Butch is right now because he's looking at how this verse is really spelled out—Psalm 8:  O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth. You have set Your glory above the heavens!  When I look at the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place; what is man, that You are mindful of him and the son of man that You care for him?  Yet, you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor!  You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands and have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen,  20:00 and the beasts of the fields, and the birds of the heaven, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!”   Barry: I can tell you from this vantage point, “majestic,” indeed—praise Him.  Bob: Butch, let me ask you one more question. How often does the sun come up during the day, and how often does it go down during the day for you?   Barry: Oh, there is another blessing!  The sunrises and sunsets here are just amazing. The Space Station—the whole station for about six to ten seconds turns completely orange as it goes through—as the light passes through the atmosphere. It kind of acts as a prism and separates the colors. I get 16 of those a day—fantastic!   Bob: So, is it almost bedtime for you now?   Barry: It actually—it is. I'm going to grab me a quick little bite to eat; and then, I'm going to hit the rack. [Laughter]   Dennis: Well, Butch, thanks for joining us on FamilyLife Today. Just want you to know it's no excuse that you can't listen to the broadcast up there. You should have figured that out in advance, but we'll forgive you for that; okay?   21:00 Barry: I appreciate that—[Laughter]—next time—next time!   Bob: Well, we're thrilled to be able to talk to you. Folks are praying for you, and we're going to keep praying for you. Excited to hear that the mission is going well.  Barry: Thank you very much, and I appreciate that as well. Praise Him. Thank you.  Bob: You know, it occurs to me—that when Butch lands—and I just checked with Keith—it's not a splashdown. It's not a landing like an airplane. It's an earthbound landing and a recovery. What did you call it—the Soyuz—what? Keith: They land from a Soyuz recovery capsule, and they land on the ground in the steppes of Russia.  Bob: Wow!  Keith knows these things. [Laughter] When that happens—after he and his wife have had a chance to kind of get acquainted with one another again—we need to get them to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for a little refresher.  Dennis: Yes.  Bob: When you've been gone for several months, it's good to have a little getaway weekend together and to hear, again, God's design for the marriage relationship.  22:00 Of course, you and I are going to be speaking at Weekend to Remember getaways next weekend. You're going to be in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I'm going to be in Colorado Springs.  Dennis: Yes.  Bob: We've got another four or five getaways happening next weekend—Valentine's weekend. Then, throughout the spring, there are Weekend to Remember marriage getaways happening in cities, all across the country.  If you and your spouse have never been, you don't have to go to outer space in order to qualify to attend a Weekend to Remember. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—get more information about when one of these getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and mention that you'd like to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We can answer any questions you have—let you know about dates and locations.  But we hope you'll make plans to invest in your marriage, whether you've been apart for a while or whether you see each other, day-in and day-out. This kind of getaway is great preventative maintenance for every marriage relationship.  23:00 Again, learn more at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, “GO DEEPER.” You'll find information about the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway there. Or call 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY,”—ask about the Weekend to Remember.  One final note before we're done. Next week is National Marriage Week. We're going to be celebrating all week long with some special things going on social media. If you are not a friend of ours on our Facebook® page or if you don't follow us on Twitter®, let me encourage you to sign up so that you can be in the loop for all that we've got going on next week—some fun stuff, some helpful things, and some ideas for Valentine's Day.  You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page. You'll see the links there for Facebook and Twitter—you can sign up that way. Or, if you're in the know, just go to Facebook and Twitter—follow us @FamilyLifeToday—that's our Twitter handle.  24:00 Or you can click, “Like,” on our FamilyLife Today Facebook page and join us that way.  And with that, we've got to wrap things up. Thanks for being with us today. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to begin a weeklong look at the Song of Solomon and what that book has to say about marriage, and romance, and dating, and intimacy. We're going to hear messages from Pastor Matt Chandler next week. So, hope you can tune in for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with help today from Tom Thompson. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 1) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 2) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 3) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 4) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 5) - Nancy Leigh DeMossFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Becoming a Woman of Character Day 5 of 5 Guest:                        Nancy Leigh DeMoss From the series:       A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood                                   Bob: One of the ways for a woman to tell if she's been influenced by the ideology of feminism is to examine her own thinking and see if there is a root of selfishness present there.  Here is Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Nancy: If I say my body is my own, I will run my own life, it doesn't matter what men see or what they think, I am living for myself.  But if I am willing to embrace God's plan for my life, then I say, "When I dress or behave or talk or act in any way, if it is a way that tears down and harms men rather than helping them and building them up, then I have failed in my divine purpose." Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, June 20th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What should a 21st century woman think about subjects like chastity and purity and modesty?  We'll talk about it today.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition.  This week we've been looking at womanhood from a biblical perspective, and it's interesting, the Bible says that all of us are to be people of godly character and yet there are some things, there are some character qualities or characteristics that the Bible would point to as being distinctively feminine, and that's what we want our focus to be about in this time together today. Dennis: It's interesting, you hear all kinds of messages to men about being men of character, but I can't recall a message to women on being women of character. Nancy: And yet it's interesting that the Scripture has so very much to say about the character of women. Dennis: Yes.   Bob: Which is why we wanted to get into the subject today and let me, if I can, Dennis, introduce for the listeners who don't recognize our guest's voice, Nancy Leigh DeMoss is joining us this week.  Nancy is the host of a daily radio program called "Revive Our Hearts," that is heard on many of the same stations that carry our program, FamilyLife Today.  She is an author and is going to be hosting a national conference for women in Chicago coming up in October.  It's called True Woman '08. A number of speaks who are going to be there, including Janet Parshall and Joni Eareckson Tada, your wife, Barbara, is going to be there, our friend, Karen Loritts is going to join Nancy, and John Piper is also going to be speaking at this conference.  And I know Mary Ann is looking forward to being at the conference. If our listeners are interested in more information about how they can attend the national True Woman '08 conference in Chicago, they can go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click where it says "Today's Broadcast," and there is a link there that will take them to the registration area for True Woman '08, and they can plan to be a part of that conference. And I know one of the things you're going to talk about at the conference is how women can better understand what we've been talking about this week – biblical femininity.  And there are a lot of components to that portrait.  Help us out – if a woman wants to be all God wants her to be, as a woman, what is the starting place for her? Nancy: Again, we have to go back to the Scripture and not let the world press us into its mold but go back and draw our understanding and our authority from the Scripture.  I think of a passage such as 1 Peter, chapter 3, known to many of us, as women, but if we go back and examine that passage, it has so much to say about our character, as women.  It's talking about, in this specific context, a woman who has an unsaved husband.  How does she influence his life?  How does she help to draw him toward Christ?   And I say to women often, as they come to one of my seminars, "Now, you may be going back into a home where your husband doesn't necessarily see all these truths," and I say to them, "Don't start putting tracts in his cereal bowl or putting your seminar notes under his pillow."  The Scripture talks about a much more powerful means of influence; it talks about our subjection, and we talked about that earlier this week, about the coming under authority, but then it talks about our pure, chaste behavior.  And the other passages that shed light on this in the New Testament talk about a woman of modesty in the way that she conducts herself, in the way that she dresses, a woman whose heart is pure, a woman who is morally pure. You know, we used to have to address the subject of moral purity just with men, but now we find today that in our sensual culture that many, many women struggle with these issues of fantasizing of the books and novels that they are reading, the magazines that they are reading, the TV programs that they're watching that are fueling immoral thoughts and behavior in their lives, and the Scripture says the woman of God, a true woman, is the woman who has pure behavior.  She is chaste in her behavior. Dennis: Yes, and it's interesting that purity of heart is expressed in the way she not only behaves but in the way that she dresses. Nancy: The Scripture tells us that a wise woman builds her home, but a foolish woman is going to tear it down, and in the Book of Proverbs, one of the ways that a foolish woman tears down the men around her is with the way that she dresses and the way that she carries herself.  Proverbs 7 talks about a woman who sets out to entice or to ensnare a man who is simple, who is naïve, who is lacking wisdom.  And one of the ways she does that is by provocative dress. Bob: Do you think there is any difference between God's call to a woman being chaste and pure and His call to a man to be morally pure? Nancy: Well, certainly, both created in the image of God and both redeemed by the grace of God, we are to be pure in heart toward God, but the Scripture talks about specific characteristics that will be true of a woman if she is not pure or if she is pure.   For example, Proverbs talks about a woman who is loud and stubborn and her feet abide not in her house.  She is brash, she is bold, she is brazen, and Proverbs tells us that as a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a beautiful woman, a woman who is outwardly beautiful, but she lacks discretion.   And I think about – a pig is a pig is a pig.  You can put designer clothes on that pig, and you can put makeup on it and give it a designer handbag and expensive jewels, but it's still a pig, and I think that so many of us, as women today, are outwardly adorning and dressing up and fixing up something that in its heart is a pig. And the Scripture says if a woman, though she may be outwardly beautiful, does not have discretion, if she is not discreet in the way that she carries herself and handles her relationships with men and with those in her family, that all that outward adorning is of little value and really is ludicrous if it's put on someone who doesn't have a godly heart. Dennis: You know, one of the things I pray frequently for my daughters is that they will have discretion, and occasionally one of them will stop me in that prayer and say, "Dad, what do you mean, discretion?  What are you talking about there?"  And they'll get a chance to talk about being a woman who is wise about how she behaves and how she carries herself in the presence of men.  And 1 Timothy, chapter 2, verse 9, I think, really outlines how a woman is to carry herself.  It says, "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly.  Not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments but rather by means of good works as befits women making a claim to godliness." Now, that reminds us of the goal.  The goal is not physical beauty.  The goal is a woman whose life is a portrait of feminine beauty that glorifies God; that is Christ-like.  I want my daughters to understand at points that a hemline that's too high, a neckline that's too low, a dress that fits too tight, are all moving them away from godliness toward provoking the opposite sex to be interested in them for the wrong reasons.  It takes a dad stepping into their lives sometimes and a mom doing so at the same time to reinforce this.  I'm going to tell a practical illustration of this from this summer, and this was really interesting, because last summer another family and ours joined together to have one of these old-fashioned pictures made – you know, a western picture where you get the guns that are 100 years old, and you get the chaps and all this stuff.  And our daughters, all of our daughters, had put on outfits that were appropriate for a bar scene.  Now, how shall I say it, okay?  And it's amazing how quickly these things can happen.  I mean, in an instant, boom, that other dad and I were faced with a choice.   To me, there was no choice.  We were about to take a picture, and it looks harmless and fun, and I don't think our daughters had anything malicious in their minds when they did this, but what happened was they got together with some other teenagers at that point, and they put these dresses on, and they were inappropriate.  And so we said, "Hold it.  You've got to redo this." But it's interesting, Nancy, at that point, all of that occurred with two mothers kind of involved in the process, kind of unaware of what had happened.  It really just kind of snuck up on them. Bob: Well, and I think one of the reasons that dads noticed it right off is because the nature of the dress is provocative to men.  And it might take a few minutes longer for that to sink in with women who aren't immediately aware.  I think there are some cases of innocent indiscretion on the part of Christian women who just don't give full thought to what they are wearing or to how that clothing might provoke a response from a man. Dennis: Right, and I think it's at those points, as dads and as men, we've got to be loving, very relational, by the way, and not just pound the table and say, "Take it off."  But instead recognize the culture we are in but nonetheless hold forth the standard of biblical femininity, which we just read – adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, and use those times as an opportunity to teach. Nancy: And that's where, Dennis, you are fulfilling the role God has entrusted to you as a man, which is to be the protector and the priest and the king in the most loving sense possible of your home, and that's where your daughters are given the opportunity to learn how to fulfill their God-created role, which is to be a helper to the men.  You see, if I say "My body is my own, I will run my own life, it doesn't matter what men see or what they think, I am living for myself."  But if I am willing to embrace God's plan for my life, then I say, "When I dress or behave or talk or act in any way, if it is a way that tears down and harms men rather then helping them and building them up, then I have failed in my divine purpose." Dennis: And, Nancy, as Barbara and I have been in the process of raising four daughters, they are not all the same.  They don't all have the same sensitivity to these issues.  They need help. Nancy: You know, there is an interesting passage in the last chapter of the Song of Solomon that talks about two different kinds of women, and it uses the imagery of a door and of a wall.  The bride describes a little sister that she has who is developing and what kind of woman she will become, and she talks about the kind of woman who is a door, a picture of one who yields easily, who is perhaps flirtatious or bold or indiscreet in her relationships with men.  Then she uses the opposite kinds of pictures as a woman who is like a wall that is firm, her life built on convictions, and she says, "What shall we do for our sister, depending on which of these kind of women she is?"  I've found that women, daughters, younger women and older women, naturally fall into one of these two categories.  And her bridegroom says to her, "If she is a wall, then we will build upon her a palace of silver.  Her life is a foundation fit to build a home for a king."  But he said, "If she is a door, if she gives in easily to the advances of men, if she is naïve in some of these areas, then we will enclosed her with boards of cedar."  We will put parameters around her and tighter restraints for her protection and so that she can develop to the place where she will become a wall. Dennis: And finally grow up and have her own discretion.   Bob: Nancy, there is a passage in Scripture that talks about a woman having a gentle and quiet spirit, and I know a lot of women who think of themselves as naturally in opposition to that passage.  They just think, "This is what God wants.  Why did He make me the way I am, because I am not a gentle and quiet-spirited woman?"  What is that passage talking about and how does a woman develop a gentle and quiet spirit? Nancy: Well, I think, Bob, it's important, first of all, we recognize that the Scripture is not here talking about something that's just a matter of personality.  God made us with different personalities.  Some people are naturally more outgoing than others, and I am a more outgoing type of person.  I can remember, as a younger woman, thinking when I would hear this phrase, I would think of some women I knew who were just very shy and quiet and mousy, and I'd think, "If that's what it means to be a godly woman, I'm not sure that's what I want to be and I'm sure I can't be."  And to deal with the "want to" issue, again, I have to come back to am I willing to let the Word regulate and control my life?  But it's helpful to know that the Scripture is talking here not about my personality as much as the spirit of the woman.  When it speaks of a woman being gentle – another translation renders that as "meek" – this speaks of a woman who is not demanding, who does not insist on having her way and, again, we live in a rights-crazed generation.  We emphasize rights, and we're going to produce rebellion and, in fact, we have.  Rather, we need to be emphasizing responsibility – responsibility to yield my rights.   Even traffic laws recognize that you don't say to someone, "You have the right of way," we say, "You yield the right-of-way."  And, as women, there is a beauty – 1 Peter 3 says, "This is what is beautiful to a woman.  This is what causes God to look at a woman and say, 'She is beautiful.'"  This is what gives a woman her true beauty, because any beauty that is external is fleeting, it is fading, it's not going to last.  But a woman who has beauty of the spirit is going to increase and part of that beauty is a meekness; it's a yielding of her rights; there's a quietness there.  That word means a tranquility that arises from within, causing no disturbance to others.  And the picture here is a woman who trusts in God so she does not have to manipulate her circumstances, she doesn't have to be a controller, she doesn't have to manipulate her husband.  She is a woman who has, because she trusts in God, she has a grateful spirit, and I think that grateful spirit flows out of a meek and a quiet spirit. Dennis: Practically speaking, address the mom who is raising a daughter who may be a little Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  She may have a personality that's very outgoing, she may even be loud.  Very loud, in fact, and, of course … Nancy: Are you saying I'm loud? [laughter] Dennis: I didn't, Nancy.  I was actually thinking of some of my children.  But I was thinking of some hope for Barbara in this process, actually.  What would you say to that mom as she raises a child who may not have a personality that is naturally quiet? Nancy: Again, this is a matter of the heart and of developing a spirit that trusts in God, that does not intimidate or run over other people, and these are issues I've had to continue to have to walk through in my own life.  I can walk into a staff meeting in our ministry where there are mostly men in the room and, without saying a word, at times, or by saying just a few words, can subtly manipulate and control the environment of that room, and that's not the place God has for me.  There are times, as a woman, when I need to not say everything that I'm thinking but to be quiet, to wait on the Lord, to listen to Him, and then when I speak to know that it's God who has given the direction and that when I speak it's with a spirit that is surrendered and yielded and trusting in God that I don't have to be in charge of the world. That's what Satan said to Eve, "You can be like God.  You can be your own god," and the drive of our natural flesh is to run the world.  You know, I just think, you let me have the reins of this ministry or this family or this world, and I'll take it. Bob: If a woman has a gentle and quiet spirit, the output of her life, and I'm thinking particularly of her speech, that's going to be reflected in her communication, isn't it? Nancy: Oh, there's no question, because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  Again, if I could hearken back to the Song of Solomon, one of the things this bridegroom appreciates about his bride, he says, "Honey and milk are under your tongue."  He talks about her speech being comely and being beautiful and this being attractive to him.  Think about honey and milk – what do they do?  Honey strengthens that which is weak and milk builds up young, immature bones.  It helps to grow, and I have to ask myself as I read that passage and other passages such as Proverbs 31:26 talks about a woman who opens her mouth with wisdom, and in her tongue is the law of kindness.   And I have to say, "O Lord, set a watch over my mouth and, by Your Holy Spirit control my heart in such a way that the words that I speak will benefit, they will bring grace.  We women can be so cutting, so hurting, so wounding with our tongues, and this is where a woman who uses her tongue to threaten divorce, to cut up and belittle and criticize her man does not perhaps realize how much damage she is doing not only to him but ultimately to their relationship and to their capacity to reflect the glory of God to our world. Bob: And to her own sense of femininity.  She is, essentially, robbing herself at that moment of the womanhood that God wants to display in her. Dennis: Yes, because she's stepping outside of what God created her to be and her character and, Nancy, I'm grateful today that you have – well, you've taken us back to the Bible to take a look at a woman's character but, at the same time, talk about it while painting this portrait of what it means to be a feminine woman. Bob: I know our listeners are grateful, as well, and I know they're grateful for your ministry on "Revive Our Hearts," your daily radio program, you're ministry in writing.  We have a number of your books in our FamilyLife Resource Center including the bestselling book,  "Lies Women Believe."  The booklet called "A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood," your  Bible study guide, "Seeking Him," and many more of the resources that you've created to help women understand God's plan for them.   And if our listeners are interested in any of these resources – and let me just say here, if you haven't read "Lies Women Believe," that's a great place to start.  And you'll find more information about it on our website at FamilyLife.com.  When you get to the home page, look to the right side of the screen.  You'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast."  Click where it says "Learn More," and that will take you into the area where there is information about the resources that are available from us written by Nancy Leigh DeMoss.   There is also information about the upcoming True Woman '08 conference that's happening in October in Chicago.  This is a national conference for women that features Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Barbara Rainey, John Piper, Janet Parshall, Joni Eareckson Tada, Keith and Kristyn Getty will be there leading worship, and it looks like it's going to be a sold out event.  So if listeners are interested in attending, they ought to register as soon as possible.  Go to our website, FamilyLife.com and, again, click where it says "Today's Broadcast" on the right side of the home page.  That will take you to an area where there is a link to the True Woman '08 conference site, and you can get more information about the upcoming conference or register online, if you'd like. You can also contact us if you're interested in ordering any of Nancy's resources by telephone.  Our number is 1-800-358-6329.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.   Someone on our team will make arrangements to have the resources you need sent out to you.   When you do get in touch with us, if you can make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we would appreciate it.  We are listener-supported.  Your donations make a huge difference.  They make it possible for us to be here on this station each day and on other stations all across the country as well.  We appreciate your financial support. This month, when you make a donation of any amount, we would love to send you a CD that features a message from Pastor Stu Weber about what biblical manhood looks like.  It's a message called "Applied Masculinity," and the CD is our gift to you as a way of saying thanks for your financial support of FamilyLife Today. If you are donating online, you will come to a box that says "keycode" out in front of it on the donation form.  Type in the word "Stu" there, s-t-u, and we'll know to send you a copy of the CD on manhood.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, make a donation over the phone and just ask for the CD about manhood or the CD from Stu Weber and, again, we're happy to send it to you.  It's our way of saying thanks for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  Dennis? Dennis: Well, this has been a great day, Bob, talking about the character of a feminine woman today and all this week, in fact, and, Nancy, I want to thank you for helping to paint a portrait of what it means to be a biblical woman, a feminine woman and equipping so many women to be that and also helping so many mothers to raise the next generation of young women, and I want to thank you for being on the broadcast. Nancy: It's been a privilege, Dennis, and I've been challenged myself to let God continue to make me into His kind of woman. Dennis: I want to conclude today's broadcast by asking you to pray for all of our women listeners in their assignments because they are varied, and yet we need God to grant them favor where He has them. Nancy: Father, I just want to thank you for Your wisdom and Your divine choice.  And, as women, we just want to come to You and cry out and say that we need You, we need Your mercy, we need You to change us and to make us what You want us to be.  We know that of ourselves we cannot be godly women, that we need the filling of Your Holy Spirit.  So we ask for that, and I ask, Lord, that you would give to us that heart, that spirit, that lifestyle that You find beautiful, that we would reflect what it means to be the bride of Christ with a heart of humility and surrender and brokenness and giving back love as You have loved us. And, Lord, thank you for the men that you are raising up in this generation to provide protection and covering for our lives.  I pray that You would bless them in fulfilling their God-given role and help us, as women, to make it easy for them, and I pray that we will love them and serve them and help them in such a way that one day they can give account with joy; that we make it easy for them to lead; that we encourage them and create a climate where they can be all that You made them to be.   And, Lord, our prayer is that, as women complementing and helping those men that together we will be able to reflect to our world what You are like and that the world will be drawn to know You because of what we have shown them of Your heart and Your ways.  We pray it in Jesus' name, amen. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.  _____________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

A good friend of Alan’s, publisher of the online XR news publication, VR Voice, drops by the show for a general chat about the future of the space, including the potential for XR to help train workers in a future where retirement is less common, saving money by designing hospitals in VR before brick meets mortar, the video game crash of 1983, and a little Fruit Ninja. Alan: Today’s guest is a good friend of mine, Bob Fine. In 2011, Bob launched the only printed magazine covering social media, The Social Media Monthly. In January 2014, he launched his second print titled The Startup Monthly in May 2016, he launched — what I love — VRVoice.co, a content vertical on all things virtual reality. In addition to his publishing endeavors, Bob continues to provide I.T. strategic planning consulting services to both private sector and non-profit communities. Bob has over 10 years of additional work experience as a systems and sales engineer with various companies, including CMGi, Hughes Network, IOWave and Raytheon, as well as two of his own consulting companies, Geoplan and the Cool Blue Company. I want to have a warm welcome; thank you, Bob, for joining us on the show today. Bob: Alan, thanks very much for having me. I’m honored to be one of your guests. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure and honor to have you on the show. I’ve met with you many times. You’ve actually shared some CES stories, and we’ve been in a little glass booth in CES together. That was wonderful. You have your own podcast and news outlet, talking about all things virtual reality, VRVoice. That is been amazing, and you’ve been a great influencer in the space, so thank you. Bob: Well, I appreciate that. Alan: So the first question I love to ask everybody is, what is the best VR/AR/XR experiences — or what are some of the best experiences — that you’ve had so far? Bob: You know, I guess from my perspective; I’m a longtime video gamer. I just went to PAX East on Friday, up in Boston. I was my first PAX event. And if you’re not familiar, that’s the Penny Arcade conference. Huge, huge gaming conference. It makes E3 look minuscule. And I’m old enough where I started with an Atari 2600. One my the reasons I started looking at VR again in 2016 was because of that video gaming interest. When you ask me my best experiences right now, I’m going to kind of… I’m thinking about some of the early games that that I played, that gave me that “woah” moment. As I’m thinking back to it now, this was actually on HTC VIVE — first gen, which was only maybe 3, 4 years ago now — and I was so impressed with the first generation of hardware that I was like, “well, this is ready for prime time.” The prices might still be a little bit high, but the quality of the gaming was there already. Just two off top my head is the VR version of Fruit Ninja, which I’ve personally put about 400-500 people through, because it’s one of the best and fastest experiences I think you can give somebody that’s never tried VR, but you can give to anybody whether they’re five years old or ninety five years old. Alan: Slicing fruit in VR is magical, and the fact that they have the haptic feedback to the controller is just… [implied Chef Kiss]. You’re right, it is a magical experience. Bob: The other game that I was really getting addicted to was Space Pirates, which I think is still just a brilliant early video game that demonstrates the quick and easy access to VR. It’s kind of like the space invaders of AR, I think, in terms of what those early games that caught fire and was easy to pick

Debbie Ziegler's daughter, Brittany Maynard at the age of 29 was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor she chose to end her life. Her story was controversial and painful. Debbie shares her daughter's journey in life and how she ended hers. Photo credit: Simon & Schuster Contact Debbie Ziegler website – Get a copy of her book, Wild and Precious Life Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, Debbie, thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming and spending time. We've had a number of conversations over, since we met, which was probably a year or two ago. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I think each time we talk, we get a little bit deeper into the conversations, and I think we both are very aligned in what we're trying to do with our time here. Debbie Ziegler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would love to use this time for you to share a bit about Brittany so people can really know who Brittany was. I think a lot of people know the name, Brittany Maynard. It's become, in many areas, a household name, and I think certainly in California, and a lot of people think of her as groundbreaking, but they don't really know Brittany. Hopefully, after this, after people hear this, they'll get your book, and they'll learn a lot about Brittany and about her journey, but I'm hoping that you can share a bit about that, because I think it would be really valuable for people to understand who Brittany was, what she did, and then what you've been doing to carry on her legacy and honor her, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Well, thank you for asking me to speak with you today. Brittany is remembered for the last act of her life, and those last minutes of her life are relived over and over again and spoken of over and over again. She knew they would be, and before she died, she asked me ... She said, "Mama, make sure people remember me for how I lived as much as they remember me for how I died." That is something that I try to honor her by doing, and one of the ways that I honored her was by writing a book about the way she lived, and I titled it Wild and Precious Life because Brittany did live a wild and precious life. She was very much in love with this world, and when she was terminally ill, she would say to me, "The world is so beautiful, Mom. It's just so beautiful, and I'm going to miss it so much." She did not want to leave this earth. Nothing inside of her desired that, but the fact was that she was terminally ill, and she had a terrible and gigantic brain tumor that had been growing for over a decade. When I look back at Brittany's life, I try to focus on the brain and how marvelous and plastic it was to tolerate the growth of a tumor for 10 years and to, as that tumor slowly grew, her plastic, resilient brain transferred function. I try to remember that. Even when I first find out she was sick, she had already lived a miracle, and it's important to focus that. The miracle I wanted to happen, which, of course, was that she wouldn't die, didn't happen, but a miracle had already happened in that she had lived 10 years with the brain tumor growing. Dr. Bob: What a beautiful awareness and a gift. It's so interesting because many people don't have that. Many people have a, are diagnosed relatively quickly after something that starts developing because it's created issues that can't be ignored or- Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... their plasticity won't happen, and so everything changes from that moment on. Right? They're thrown into the health care system and start having procedures and treatments, and so ... You know that this is a fatal illness, even when it's caught early. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. I think that one thing that Brittany and I talked about quite frequently is that every person's disease is different, and it annoyed Brittany that people felt that just because their uncle, cousin, niece, had had a brain tumor, that they somehow knew her journey. The same thing happens to, I think, cancer patients with any kind of cancer. We have to remember, as we interface and speak with and try to love these people through their illness, that every body's illness is different. Just as our bodies are different, our cancer is different. It can be very, very frustrating for a patient to be told, "Oh, well, my aunt did this," or, "My uncle did that." Let's just try to take each patient alone and single and look at their disease and look at their illness separately and try not to bring in all these other judgments based on other stories. Brittany's illness, she had been living with, and the tumor had been growing very slowly, and so that allowed for that plasticity. If a tumor grows in your brain in a quick fashion, a much, much smaller tumor could kill you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, or in a different position, a different location in the brain. Debbie Ziegler: This would be the same for other cancers. It would be the same for people with any kind of cancer. Depending on how that cancer, how that tumor's growing, it takes its own cruel path, and so one of my big hot buttons is that we stop and remember that everybody's journey is different, and everybody faces their illness in a different way. The way my daughter faced it was by getting all the information she could get. She was almost an encyclopedia about brain tumors, about the types of cells that make brain tumors, about how those tumors progress in people of certain age groups. She read white papers. She had a good education, so she was lucky enough to be able to read that kind of paper that might put some of us to sleep. She was able to read it and really extract information for it, so when she entered a doctor's office, she was speaking their terminology, and she was very well read, so that is a different kind of patient. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would imagine that for certain doctors, that would be a little bit ... I'm not sure if "intimidating" would be the right word, but they're not used to that. They're used to having, to doing the education and kind of doing it on their own terms. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. There is, and there is this paternal mold of medicine that's been in the United States for a long time where, for many years, we looked at our doctors as sort of an extra father in the family that what he said was how it went. We had this paternal model where we never even asked the doctor, "Well, what are my options," and we didn't have the internet, and we didn't have this quick way to get information. In the case of my daughter, she was actually checking out medical documents online and reading medical documents. We're in a different place, and we're in a different time. We're struggling with this old, paternal medical model, which isn't working for us well anymore. Then you add on top of that that if a doctor got a scan of Brittany's brain, one doctor said, "I expected her to be wheeled in on a gurney and unable to speak," because the tumor was in that portion of her brain that allows you to speak and vocalize, and it looked like that must, those skill sets must be gone, but because it had grown so slowly, those skillsets had moved, and she was able not only to speak but to speak very articulately. I do think it was a shock, and a little bit more difficult to deal with, with a patient who's very well read and very outspoken. My daughter was, even from a young child, a very purpose-filled person. I remember they observed her playing when they were analyzing whether she was ready for kindergarten, and they wrote in the report that her playing was purpose-filled. That came back to me as I watched her negotiate her illness, and I thought, "Okay, well, those things that made it difficult to mother her, that purpose-filled, stubborn, willful sort of way, was a wonderful asset to her when she was ill and needed to navigate her illness." People ask me all the time about how Brittany could make a decision like this so confidently, and my answer is that she had the innate personality to question and to, and she also had the educational background that she could absorb the scientific information and accept it on a factual level. The emotional part, matching her ability to be emotionally strong, matching her background to be able to understand the information that is terribly frightening, and which, honestly, I mean, I taught science. I couldn't read it in the beginning. It took me about a month to be able to read about brain tumors. I just couldn't do it. [inaudible 00:11:20]. Dr. Bob: You mean you couldn't do it because it was too difficult emotionally or because it was too, the information was too- Debbie Ziegler: It was emotionally. Dr. Bob: Okay. Debbie Ziegler: I also have a science background, and I taught science, so I could read it, and I could interpret it, but as her mother, having just heard that she had a terminal diagnosis with a brain tumor, emotionally I was unable to read about brain tumors for well over a month. This is a part of what happens to the family of the terminally ill person. Sometimes, they're knocked back into a period of denial where they're unable to look at the truths; they're unable to look at the facts. I think that makes it more difficult in some ways, and yet I'm told by psychologists that denial is something that helps us deal with crisis and eventually move on, as long as we move through it and don't stay in that place. I can testify to the strength of denial, and I can certainly say, from my experience, that it is very important to overcome it if you're going to help your loved one. It's something you must battle through and get to the other side. Dr. Bob: I think that's so powerful, and, I guess, recognizing that it's happening, being open to recognizing that, and that it's normal, and you don't have to rush yourself through it, because it is a process, but if you're not aware that that's what's happening, then it seems like it's the reality and it's appropriate, and would be much more difficult to get through it and be of support as you ultimately want and need to be, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Particularly if the patient gets to the point where they are out of denial. Many terminally ill people quietly, but firmly, believe that they have a pretty good handle on how much time they have. Something inside them says it's not going to be more than a few months, but they, if they're surrounded by people who are in denial, they have no one to discuss that with. They have no one to say, "Look, I'm dying." My daughter, because of her youth and because of who she was, said to me in the hospital one night, she was in her bed, and I was climbing on to a gurney next to her, and she said to me, "Mama, you get that I'm dying, don't you? I need you to get this." It just ripped my heart out, but at the same time, I realized, "Oh, my goodness. I have to look at this. I have to turn around. I have to stop running and pretending that I can find some miraculous doctor in some other country," which is what I was dreaming of at that point. "I have to turn around and look at my child who is telling me, 'I'm dying.' I have to be with her in that moment." I'm telling you, it's hard, and I'm also telling you it's really important for the patient, really important for the patient to be able to say, "The people that love me get it. They get it. I'm dying, and they get it." Dr. Bob: "And stop wasting my time." Right? "I'm-" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: "Be here with me, because we don't have a lot of time for what we need to do." Debbie Ziegler: In her case, she wanted us to listen to what her desire was for the rest of her life, what it was going to look like, because being told that she had about six months to live, Brittany immediately sprang into her list of, she had a bucket list of places she wanted to visit. She had a list of people she wanted to talk to before she died. She had a list of accomplishments that she wanted to be able to be a part of, which included, in the beginning, she wanted to write some articles. She decided she wanted to write articles because the medication she was on to keep the pressure in her cranium down from this gigantic tumor causing this pressure, she was taking a lot of steroids, strong steroid medication, and steroid medication at that level has some pretty gnarly side effects. It makes you get this round, very full face, which they refer to in medicine as a moon face. Brittany thought, "All right, because I don't want anybody taking pictures of my moon face, and that way, I can write an article and still have an impact and advocate for other terminally ill patients, but I won't be seen." Then as it turned out, and as many people know, that is not the path that it took, and she was asked to have her photograph taken, and then she was asked to be filmed, and then she was asked to be interviewed. All of this was done when Brittany didn't look like Brittany anymore, and she cried, and she said, "I just see cancer in that face. That doesn't look like my face. That looks like the face of cancer." I know what a sacrifice she made to do this for people. We talked about how it was normal at 29 to feel feelings of vanity, yeah, a little bit, as you're a woman and you don't want to look bad, and how she was going to overcome that. Of course, as her mother, I kept saying, "You're so beautiful, Brittany. You are still beautiful. It's just a different beautiful." She would be like, "Oh, Mama, you're my mom," but I just want people who are ill to know that those last six months that my daughter had were some of the most productive month of her life. She had a sense of urgency and joy. In between sadness and terror, there were these moments of great joy and satisfaction, as we walked through a particular place in nature that spoke to her. She'd call me, "Mama, come and look. Come and look at the banana slug. Come and look at the starfish. Come and ... " We shared those moments of joy because she faced her illness, and she was not going to waste that time. That required decision-making. That required saying, "No," to some treatments that she felt, after reading about them, we're not going to buy her any significant amount of time, and while she did those treatments and did not receive significant time, the treatment itself was going to deteriorate her lifestyle. Her quality of life was very important to her, and she said, "If I'm not getting any measurable upside here in the way of extended life, then I need to be looking at the quality of the little life that I have left," and so she remained focused on that, and she remained strong in the face of some pretty persuasive and, in some cases, almost bullying that went on in the medical system of, "You must do chemotherapy. You must start it on Monday." Even her oncologist, after doing DNA testing, told Brittany, "You aren't a good candidate for chemo." She said, "Your DNA, your markers, are indicating that you're not a good candidate. There's a very, very small percentage of chance that chemo would do you any good, and there is some chance that chemo could actually make your tumor grow faster because you have a glioblastoma now." Dr. Bob: Certainly, it would deteriorate her quality of life, which she knew, and yet still there were physicians who were part of her team who were pushing her. Debbie Ziegler: Definitely pushing that. She stayed with her oncologist, who she felt understood chemo the best more than the surgeon, and she said, "Your own hospital just wrote a paper about chemo not always being the right answer for the brain tumor patient, and so I'm saying, 'No.' I know that you know this within these halls, and I'm not going to do it. It doesn't have enough of a possibility of upside for me, and it has a definite downside that's very well known. The symptoms that will take away my ability to do some things that are very important to me," one of being that she wanted to travel to Alaska, and she wanted to ride in a helicopter in Alaska and land on a glacier. She wanted to go on a dog sled and cross a glacier. She wanted to move in a dog sled on a glacier that was moving on a planet that was moving in a solar system that was moving. We wanted to be moving in time and space, and we did it. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. That's awesome. Debbie, at what point, at what point after the diagnosis, did the whole concept of medical aid in dying come into her awareness and start becoming a bit of a focus? Debbie Ziegler: For Brittany, her focus on aid and dying came much more quickly than anyone else in her family, because, at Berkeley, she had been in a psychology class where they had had a discussion about end-of-life options. Her class had heatedly argued about end-of-life options, and so Brittany had already thought about this, discussed it, and, quite frankly, been a participant in a conversation at a high level. As soon as she was told, and she did ask directly, none of her family could or would, because we were all in denial, she's the one that forced the conversation and said, "Is this brain tumor going to kill me? Is this a terminal brain tumor?" She was told, "Yes, it is terminal. At this point, until we have tested this cell structure, we don't know how long, but we do know this is what you will die of." As soon as they told her that, she began discussing end-of-life options. She did not know how long her life would be, but she did know that the tumor was going to take her life, and she knew enough from her science background of the course of action that a brain tumor takes that she knew she wanted to be looking into other options rather than just following a natural course. Dr. Bob: How fortuitous for her, not maybe fortuitous at all, but that she had had, been exposed to it. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: Not a lot of 28, 29-year-olds are- Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: ... and so it could have been a very different process, and path had that not happened. Debbie Ziegler: The way she introduced the topic into conversation was, I think she was trying to spare us until she could discuss it with her parents, but she said to the doctor, "How can I get transferred into the Oregon medical system?" That, of course, to everyone in the room, seemed like an odd question, and in the back of my mind, because I am a science teacher and, of course, had read articles, I thought, "Oregon. Oh, my goodness. I know why she's talking about Oregon." I couldn't have told you the details, but I knew that it had to do with the right to die, and I knew what she was talking about the very first time she mentioned it. I knew where she was going. Within seconds, there were two people in the room. I'm sure the doctor knew what she was talking about, although he chose, at that moment in time, to not recognize it, to say, "Well, why would you want to do that? You're in a fine medical system here in California." It wasn't until days later that we had open conversations about why she was interested in Oregon. Of course, since that time, California has passed an End of Life Option bill. I feel that that is my daughter's legacy. I believe that it was her story of having to move out of California in order to die, in order to die peacefully, that touched a lot of hearts and made history in California. I smile when I think of our End of Life Option Act because, in my heart, it's Brittany's act. Dr. Bob: Well, it was Brittany's act, but she couldn't have done it without you. Right? You- Debbie Ziegler: She- Dr. Bob: You were her partner in that. Debbie Ziegler: She had help, and she had many, many volunteers who loved her, who loved her spunk, her feistiness, her story, who immediately gravitated towards supporting her. I have had letters written from all over the world, from all over the world. I now speak with people in an ongoing relationship, some of whom I have met face to face now, and some of whom I haven't, from countries all over the world about Brittany, and some of these faithful people write me every time it's her birthday, every anniversary of her death, every anniversary of the bill being passed, and they tell me how much my daughter means to them, and that they live in a place where there is no law, and that she stands for hope to them, that she stands for hope that one day, all of humanity will treat each other with love and kindness and will not be so afraid of death. It's such a beautiful legacy that it helps me accept that she's gone. She's gone physically from me. Those first few years, grief was so difficult, and I've met so many grieving people, and as I was grieving, I would literally be knocked down to my knees sometimes. I'd be crying on my knees in the hall, or in the living room, or in the kitchen, or one time in a park, another time in a store, like a T.J. Maxx. Here's this lady down on her knees, crying. I would always smile through my tears and know that Brittany would be saying, "Get up. Get up, right now, because you're on your knees crying. It means there's something that needs to be done. Look around. See what needs to be done." The first time, I got up, and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I just opened an email about how dire the blood shortage was," so I went and donated blood, and now I try to donate blood twice a year in Brittany's name. I pick times of the year when that is hardest for me. I pick the times of year when I know the grief is going to wash over me again. Times, holidays, her birthday, the day of her death, the beginning of the year. I pick times to do the donations when I know that giving blood is going to be this beautiful gift that's going to lift me out of my sorrow. Then I look around and see other things that need to be done. I see an elderly person that needs a visitor or flowers. I see a friend who needs a visit who is fighting breast cancer. When I go into my worst grief, I always hear her saying, "Get up and look around. There must be something you need to do." That is one of the ways I've dealt with grief is by getting up and looking around. Dr. Bob: And doing what, and doing what is- Debbie Ziegler: And doing something- Dr. Bob: ... right there, immediate, in your awareness. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I'm going to, so can we stay with this for a moment? Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I know that I've been with you, and you've shared some of your other tools, tips, ways of working through the grief. Debbie Ziegler: Grief, yes. Dr. Bob: I think I would love for you to share if you're up for it, a couple more, just a little bit more about how you've managed to work through your grief or work with your grief as a guide here for some of our listeners. Debbie Ziegler: Well, in the beginning, I have to admit that grief was like, it was a black ocean sucking me under, and I thought, "If I don't do something, I'm not going to make it." I really, first of all, I admitted this to the people I loved who began searching for things that might help me. My sister came to me with a treatment that's called ... I don't know the letters for it. I think it's PTSD, but it's an eye treatment. Dr. Bob: Oh, EMDR? Debbie Ziegler: EMDR. Dr. Bob: Emotional freedom release, yeah. Debbie Ziegler: It is EMDR, and it's rapid eye movement treatment. Because I told people, "I can't talk my way through this. Talk therapy is not going to be enough. I can't do this." This is a scientific treatment where you are asked to follow a light with your eyes. I was probably the most skeptical person on earth that it would help me, but it did, and rather rapidly. It took me out of this circular, negative thinking that I had. I had a few broken records that revolved around Brittany's illness and Brittany's death, and those records would come on and play over and over again, and this treatment of causing my eyes to move while I thought about this, or while I thought about a very stressful day or the actual day of her death, while I thought or discussed about that, my eyes were moving, and it causes your brain to use both sides, the right and left, and your own brain helps you heal and stop that broken record from playing. That is one treatment that I feel very strongly about. I also used the treatment of touch, of various therapies that have to do with massage and different types of massage, to kind of work the tightness that was in my muscles. After being with Brittany and anticipating her death for six months, there was a lot of muscle difficulty, and so I used that. I also have a sister-in-law who sent me ... I also have a sister-in-law who sent me various scents, an aromatherapist, and she sent me a mister. She sent this to us before Brittany died, and Brittany used it all the time to help her try to sleep. That was a difficult part of the last month of her life was getting any sleep, so both she and I used aromatherapy, which is another thing that I sort of, as a scientist, was sort of like, "How can I possibly help?" Yet- Dr. Bob: It did. Debbie Ziegler: It did. In fact- Dr. Bob: Undeniably. Debbie Ziegler: ... my daughter said the two therapies that helped her the most, she said, "Look at all the doctors we've been to, Mom. Look at all the specialists, the high-paid brain surgeons, neurologists, oncologists," and she said, "Look what I'm down to in the last weeks of my life. I'm down to massage and aromatherapy, and these are the two things that soothe me and help me." She used them right up to the end, and she developed a relationship with her masseuse, and she developed a relationship with my sister-in-law, who sent the aromatherapy. Along with these treatments came this human touch and caring that's so important. Dr. Bob: You're singing my tune. I mean, those are the things, of course, that we try to, and it's just, I didn't know that about Brittany's- Debbie Ziegler: [inaudible 00:35:07]. Dr. Bob: ... about what brought her comfort, so it was really, it's, I guess, confirmation, more confirmation about how incredibly valuable these therapies and are ... Not to throw out every other treatment that is being offered through the traditional medical system, because sometimes those are very important, but the value of some of these- Debbie Ziegler: Simpler- Dr. Bob: ... high-touch- Debbie Ziegler: ... natural- Dr. Bob: Yeah. No side effects. What are the side effects of massage therapy? I'm so happy to hear that that was comforting for her, and also for you, afterward. Debbie Ziegler: It was, and we would go together, and friends would send her massage gift certificates. It was a way for them to reach out to her and to give her some solace. We had a special place that we went to and a special group of women who knew her and knew our story, and so it was a safe place that felt safe to go to, and ... Dr. Bob: And that connection. Right? The connection that she made, which was not, didn't revolve around her illness. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: It wasn't going to get a treatment or for someone to check and see how she's progressing. It was a human connection, which people at all stages need, and when we can provide that, it normalizes things. It enhances the feelings of well-being, so this is another pretty powerful reminder of that. Debbie Ziegler: The people that worked in the area that we went to, which was Portland, Oregon, we went to a place there, they never questioned her. They never argued with her. They just said, "How are you today? Where do you feel that ... Do you have places that we need to concentrate on? Do you have places where you have some knots in your shoulders, you just want ... How much pressure?" It was all about, "What feels good to you, Brittany, today? Because we just want to send you out of here feeling a little bit better than you came in." There was no lofty goal to cure cancer. There was no lofty goal to fix this girl who had this gigantic brain tumor. It was just, "From where you start to where you leave, we promise you're going to feel a little bit better." Dr. Bob: In that moment. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. Debbie Ziegler: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Dr. Bob: We talked a bit about some of the ways that you moved through grief, which I'm sure part of that was what you, basically what's become your life's work as well. Debbie Ziegler: That was very fulfilling. To be able to testify was very fulfilling, and I felt that my testimony came from a place that was a little bit extraordinary in that, as Brittany's mother, this was not my first choice. This was not; I did not readily gravitate to this end-of-life option idea. I stayed in denial for a period of time. I had to work through this in my head. I had to analyze some childhood beliefs that I grew up with in Texas, so when I spoke with senators face to face, or representatives face to face, and they were reticent, or they had some childhood religious beliefs that were kind of interfering with their ability to even hear Brittany's story, I could relate to them, and I told them that. I told them, "I was you. I was you. The look on your face, my poor daughter had to see. I see you avoiding this subject. I see you turning away from death. I see you turning away from this idea. My daughter had to watch me do that, and that must have been so hard for her to have her own mother not be able to discuss it, to be in denial for a period of time." I felt that my testimony was from a place of, a commonplace that we had, and I felt that in some cases, minds were able to change, or people were able to look inside and say, "Hey, maybe I do need to look at this a little, from a little bit of a different angle." I felt that that was an important truth that I could share was that I didn't start out all gung-ho about this. I knew what she was talking about, and it scared me to death. It really did. It's an important common ground that we had. Then as I went on and spoke in different environments and different countries, I recently came back from Africa, where I spoke at a conference there where people from 23 different countries met in Africa to discuss our human right worldwide to die peacefully when we are terminally ill, to seek a peaceful death. It was very empowering to meet these people who are; literally, you could almost feel the room vibrating with the love and excitement that these people have about making the end of someone's life more tolerable. Coming back from something like that is just, infuses me more with energy and confidence, and inspires me that this is important work, and that I believe that sharing the hardest parts of how it happened and the hardest parts of what we went through in the public eye and as a family who really didn't have very much of a help and assistance ... In fact, we kind of had to claw our way into a situation where my daughter could use the law. I feel like telling those hard parts and just kind of opening my kimono and letting people see the pain, that maybe they will have confidence when, and if, something happens in their own family, that they can say, "Oh, I read about this one time, and you know what? She was in denial, too. That's what I'm in. I'm in denial. I recognize this." Maybe it will help someone get out of denial. Maybe it will help someone not feel so alone. Maybe it will help someone support a patient and say, "What do you think? You are the one who's dying. Let's make a plan, your plan, your plan, because this is your life, and I want to hear what you want to do." Maybe it will help someone look into the patient's eyes instead of running out of the room and making phone calls to try to make something that can never happen. I just, I think that if we don't tell our story and share the humanness of dying, that we're not going to move forward. The more we keep hiding and not talking about it, the less likely we are to be able to face the end of life, which should be a beautiful time. My daughter showed me that. She showed me that, "Yeah, Mom, it's not always beautiful, because I'm 29, and I'm pissed off that I'm dying, but in between being pissed off, I want to live, and I want to experience joy, and I want to go places, and I want to meet people that I haven't seen in a while, and I want to finish things. I want to feel that I've finished some jobs and some relationships and before I go." She wanted a plan, and I think a dying person's plan, no matter what it is, because it may not be what you, as their relative, want it to be, but their plan is really all they have, and so let's support that plan. Let's talk about that plan and what it's going to look like, and how are we going to get it put in place. I think people don't plan. They wait too late. A hospice is called, sometimes, too late. People end up saying, "Oh, I want to use the End of Life Option Act," but it's too late. They haven't left themselves enough time to get the prescription, to write the letters, to wait for the waiting period. The more we can normalize this and discuss this with our families, with our loved ones, with our friends, the more they can plan and make a good plan, and we can help them put that plan into place, but it's not our job to make the plan for them. It's not our job to get in there and say, "Oh, you need to do this, and you need to do that." We need to stop. After they've been told, "You have a terminal illness," we need to slow down a little minute, and we need to absorb that information with them, and then we need to listen. "What do you want to do? How do you want to live these last months?" It can be beautiful. Dr. Bob: And, "How do you want to die?" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. "How do you want to die?" Dr. Bob: "How do you want to die?" Wow. Okay. I think we came to a beautiful place to pause. You and I are not done with our conversations. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: By a long shot. Debbie Ziegler: California's not finished with this conversation, and I think we're committed to- Dr. Bob: Co-create it. Debbie Ziegler: ... making the best of this that we can. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of lives to support, and so we will have, you and I will have more conversations, and I would love ... I know we talked a bit about what came out of this conference in South Africa. Another podcast devoted to that would be wonderful- Debbie Ziegler: That would be great. Dr. Bob: ... because that would be very educational for people to see what's going on in the rest of the world and what we have to aspire to. Can you share how people can read more about the story and get more information about you and Brittany? Debbie Ziegler: Oh, the book I wrote about Brittany was published by Simon & Schuster, and it is available on all the major online vehicles that you can buy books, I mean, every single one. Amazon, all the bookstores. The title is Wild and Precious Life. I hope that when you read it, it will make you want to live a wild and precious life, because we just have this little bit of time, and we might as well make it wild and precious. I'm Deborah Ziegler, Brittany Maynard's mother. My greatest achievement in my life, my daughter, who I love dearly, was a great model of living a wild and precious life. I would urge you to read her story and benefit from it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. I second that wholeheartedly. It's a wonderful story. It's hard to read, at times, for sure, but it is a, it's well worth it, and I think you'll gain some really great insights. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being here. It's an honor. Debbie Ziegler: Thank you.

Dr. Michael Fratkin founded ResolutionCare to insure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere as they approach the completion of life. Learn how telehealth applications are bringing a greater quality of living and dying to those in need. Contact ResolutionCare website Transcript Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Please note there is some content that is explicit in this episode. Dr. Bob: Dr. Michael Fratkin is the President and Founder of Resolution Care. Dr. Fratkin is a father, a husband, a brother, a son, a physician, and a very dear friend of mine. Dr. Fratkin is dedicated to the well-being of his community and the community of all human beings. Since completing his training, he's made his home and built his family in rural Northern California. He's served his community as a primary care physician in the community health system, as a medical director of the local hospice, as a leader in the community hospital medical staff, and has been a transformative voice for improving the experience for people facing the end of life. At a time of great demographic and cultural change in our society, Dr. Fratkin has created Resolution Care to ensure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere, as they approach the completion of their life. Resolution Care is leveraging partnerships with existing healthcare providers and payers to provide telehealth services that bring a greater quality of life and greater quality of dying. The palliative care team at Resolution Care openly shares their expertise and mentorship so that people can receive the care they need, where they live, and on their own terms. In this podcast interview, Dr. Fratkin shares his passion and his intimate experience as a provider of care. He's innovative; he's creative, he's dedicated beyond what I've experienced with just about anybody else who I've communicated with about palliative care and end-of-life care. I think you're gonna find this podcast to be incredibly informative and really interesting. Okay, Michael, thank you so much for taking time out of your day. I know you've got lots of irons in the fire and lots of people vying for your attention. So I really appreciate having time to connect with you. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I always enjoy talking with you. We connect sporadically, not as much as either of us would probably want, but we have been pretty consistent in finding times to connect and catch each other up on what's happening with our lives and our different enterprises. And what's interesting is, after our conversations, I always think to myself, "I wish other people could have heard that. I wish other people had a chance to listen in and hear what we're developing, and sort of the passion that comes out in these conversations." They're so informative, for me, and I find it so inspiring to hear what you're doing and the service that you're providing and creating. So today we have that opportunity so that people are going to be able to listen in on our conversation. In the introduction, I shared a bit about what you're doing, who you are, but I'd like to have you just do a little synopsis of what Resolution Care is doing currently, where it started from its humble beginnings, and what your vision is for where this is heading. Dr. Fratkin: I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a whole lot of stuff. But I'm also what's called a palliative care doctor. And your group of listeners probably know a little bit about what that is, but the way that I describe it for people is that there are really three central elements. That number one, we don't take care of any patients. We support people as they find their way through serious illness. We support people with a team; we support their families. Our team includes nurses, doctors, social workers, chaplains, nurse practitioners, community health workers, and all the people that they don't necessarily see, but that are just as important to creating a container for our care, the back office, and operational people. So the first principle is, is that we are a person-centered, not a patient-centered, but a person-centered initiative. And that those persons, the reason I distinguish it ... It's not just the patients or their families, but the people providing the care that are centrally important to everything that we do. And then we build out from there. So the first thing is, we're a person-centered organization, using a team to accompany people with serious illness as they navigate it, right? Dr. Bob: I love it. Dr. Fratkin: So the second thing that we do is that we're really damn good at managing symptoms. Our team has quite a bag of tricks around the treatment of pain and nausea, breathlessness, and various other physical manifestations of illness. And we know how to use that bag of tricks. So symptom control is the second thing. And the third thing is, we help people and their families to navigate what is a completely dysfunctional, fucked up if you don't mind me saying so- Dr. Bob: Let's call that like it is. Dr. Fratkin: Of fragments and silos and conflicting interests, and stakes held. We help people navigate, somewhat, through the complications of their illness, but more so, we recognize that people are trying to make their way through a human experience, not a medical one. And so, we help them navigate through that, bringing the personhood that we are to accompany them with the wisdom, skills, and shortcuts and strategies that we know about navigating. So it's person-centered around the people we care for and us as well. We matter, too. It's impeccable symptom control, and it's navigational assistance. And really tough times of life in a really complicated health care system. So Resolution Care does that. And we use some technology tricks, video conferencing, all of our care is based in the home. And that's that. But I think I also wanna tell you about how I got here and why. Dr. Bob: Please do. Dr. Fratkin: So I came to far Northern California, Humboldt County, in 1996 and joined a community clinic environment as the only internist in a five-clinic system. And my job was to take on all the patient V patients and all the complicated conditions that provided kind of complex case management approach for the heavy hitters, the outliers, the hot spotters. They're called lots of things now, but they were just languishing without the attention they needed when I showed up in town. And for six years, I took the hardest cases in the system, and helped with diagnosis and treatment planning, and burned out rather quickly, because I didn't have a team. I then sort of shifted my attention to my deep connection with hospice work and became a hospice medical director, where I did have a team. But I also had a very constraining box around me, a structure of hospice defined by the Medicare benefit that was limiting our ability to do what made sense, rather than meeting all of the regulation and compliance that continues to accumulate in the hospice model of care. And I burned out again. And then, I did some hospital work. When I started, I was seeing 9-12 people in a day, and I really enjoyed being at the point of the sphere where people were sick enough to be hospitalized and to attend to them both with good medicine, as well as a respect, and frankly, love in the face of what they're going through. And that was great until they started to push me to see 15 or 18. And now, it's 22 patients in a 12-hour shift. And I burned out again. And all the while, paying attention to the rising credibility and relevance of the palliative care movement. So I became first certificated in 2000, and board-certified a few years after that, in palliative care. In 2007, I worked with the hospital to launch a guided care consultation service in the hospital. And as soon as I got started doing that, there was almost immediately, four or five times as many people as I could care for. And I wasn't able to scare up the resources in the hospital to build out a team. So for a period of years, I wrote business plans, I went to committee meetings, I tried to advocate for greater resources to do this good work correctly, and failed to do that. So in 2014, I had had it. Exasperated, fatigued, burned out, I guess for the fourth or fifth time. God knows I can't keep track. I was looking for a job. I figured I couldn't stay here in this beautiful community, because I couldn't figure out how to get a sustainable job with a team that builds capacity over time. And so, I looked for work. And as you know, Bob, a palliative care doctor these days doesn't have to go too far to get too many interviews. I had three interviews in three weeks in the Bay area, and on the way to the Bay area. And they offered me three jobs, quickly, were better resourced, better compensated, more controlled work hours, but none of them were where I lived, where I made my home, where my kids were born in my house. I live on this five-acre piece of redwood forest. My kids were born there. My dogs and cats are buried in the yard. And I didn't wanna leave. So come around spring of 2014, I started to think about maybe there's a way to build capacity, build a team, and share what I know to others so that they could make that work for the people they're caring for. And so, the three ideas were video conferencing, Project Echo, which we could talk about later, it's a telementoring structure that allows a specialist to share information to primary care providers, et cetera. We can talk about that later if you want. And then the third thing was crowdfunding. So in November 1st or 2nd in 2014, we launched an Indiegogo campaign and based on all of my relationships in the community and people's trust in my work, we were able to raise $140,000 in a little over a month. And in January 2015, myself and one other person walked into a donated office space and turned on the lights. Dr. Bob: What a great story, and a great confluence of ... And you being true to your vision, being true to yourself, to what you knew was the absolute right way to practice the ... And you took a risk, right? And you continue every day, taking a risk. I know it. We've had these conversations. I'm trying to remember when we first connected because I've watched this thing go from birth to flourishing. And flourishing may not mean the same thing to you that it does to me, because I know your vision is grander. Dr. Fratkin: Well I know where we met. We met around ... There's a group in San Diego of one old-timer, one mid-timer, but some folks that have been inspired for more comprehensive cancer care in the community for a long time. A fellow by the name of Dan Vicario and the dear, dear friend of mine. I call him my grand brother, Paul Brenner, a psychologist with a deep connection. A psychologist and physician with deep connections to really thoughtful and complete approach to people with serious illness. And it was through them that they connected me to you. Dr. Bob: Right. And I remember that part very clearly. And I've had the honor and the privilege of collaborating on patients with both of them. And it is really; it's magical to be part of that with all of their combined years of wisdom and their just beautiful energy. But I'm trying to remember the stage that you were at. It was probably early on, and- Dr. Fratkin: It was probably in 2015. And without getting too wonkish about enterprise development so that we can get to the topic at hand, 2015 was the year of getting rolling and getting the team. And we did that. By September, we had a nurse, a social worker, chaplain, and office staff, as well as a little bit of a head of steam, with a group of patients. 2016, we really started to grow. And 2017, we continued to grow and sort of learned how to be a business that was sustainable. And coming into 2018, I'll just tell you today, Resolution Care network is tending to about 164 people in their homes, from the Oregon border to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the west, all the way to the ... I guess it's the Idaho/Nevada border to the east, south, pretty much to the Bay area with a couple of other folks a little bit further south. We've got 29 employees. We have contracts with four health plans. And we're making an impact with this model of care that we're developing. Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. And of those 164 current patients, how many of those are receiving physical ... Are you able to get to visit physically, versus doing it entirely through video conferencing? Dr. Fratkin: It's variable. The key element is, is we really do what makes sense. So if a person lives down the street, it makes sense just to drop in and see them and sit on their couch and eat their cookies and chat with them that way. If they live 150 miles away from HQ, we're much more likely to engage with them by video conference. And it's really ... That's kind of what we built into the model. It's a hybrid model, both boots-on-the-ground, face-to-face encounters, with teleconferencing or video conferencing. And we do that in a really nimble fashion so that there are some people who really can't wrap their head around it. And if they're close enough, we provide them with a more traditional home care model. We have people who are right down the street who are very comfortable, in fact, prefer not having somebody knock on the door and walk into their house, but prefer to control the framework of the encounter. And then, different specialties. For my fellow providers and me, we're probably in the 85-90% video conferencing channel. Our nurses are probably in the 50-60% of their direct encounters are done by video. Our community health workers, the other end of the polarity, do very little video conferencing, because that's kind of what their value proposition is, is to be right there in the home with time and engagement to suss out what's needed. Our community health workers extend the reach of our doctors, our nurses, our social workers, and our chaplains. And they're given a lot of room to figure out what makes sense for each person and their family. So it's a variable ratio of boots-on-the-ground to remote engagement. Dr. Bob: Right. And what's cool about it is each situation is unique, and it probably changes over time as well. And I think it's fascinating; the different disciplines have the option of doing it whichever way makes the most sense for the provider as well as for the patient and family. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. At an organizational level for organization people who might be listening, it makes such great sense to use the technologies to eliminate the inefficiencies of travel. What's interesting ... I think we've talked about this before, but when I started to do initial consultations with people, first encounters to carry the arc of ... Oh, there are 8 or 10 elements that I've gotten accustomed to, to feel complete within an initial encounter. When I did it in a clinic setting, or at home, it was a 90 to 120-minute encounter, easily, and really exhausting. But when I started doing those same initial encounters by video conferencing, over and over and over again, they came to a place of completion in about half the time. Dr. Bob: Why is that? Dr. Fratkin: I think it's because we are primates. I think that when you walk into a person's home, there's a whole lot of social primate behavior. There's a whole lot of framing that includes so much more than just the relational engagement, one-on-one, with another person. There's the environment; there's the space, there's how the person feels about inviting a person into their home. There's their level of attention to, let's say, housekeeping, or their level of anxiety about how much energy they have to do housekeeping. There are the dogs; there's the feeling like you're hosting a doctor in your home, or a social worker, whoever. There are the elements of ... If you're really, really sick, maybe you just didn't feel like taking a shower this morning, but the doctor's coming, so you have to put yourself through a whole preparation mode. All of those things are, frankly, in the way of a relationship of trust. They're complications. So I've come to accept that actually doing care virtually is better than real life. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. I find that fascinating, because I do some care, some visits remotely that way. The vast majority, 95+% of them are in patient's homes. So those social, primal, primate behaviors, to me, I find those really endearing. And I think it's almost like a friendship is developing at the same time as a doctor-patient relationship. But I'm not seeing the same volume as you, so I have the luxury of being able to do that at this stage of the game. Dr. Fratkin: I think that's true. I think there are some other things that are hidden in plain sight that relate to it. I'm sure you'll agree that one of the great challenges for hospice work, palliative care work, complex conditions, where people with huge loads of social challenges with sensitive, inspired, caring caregivers and healthcare professionals ... One of the greatest challenges to this work is learning about the nature of boundaries. It shows up in every hospice organization, every palliative care organization, in the hospital, where people get confused about where they begin and where the people that they're attending to begin, or where they begin and end. The I and Thou, to quote Martin Buber. That is very interesting and hard to teach. The way that most of us learn is that we screw it up. We get caught up with the other person's energies. We end up feeling we must keep them pleased. We don't necessarily ... Well, here's the teaching metaphor that I use. I'll see if I can create a visual of this for you and the listeners. Bob, do you remember way back when, in the dark ages, when you took Physics? Dr. Bob: Yes, vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Vaguely. And do you remember studying the components of an electronic circuit? Dr. Bob: Even more vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Okay. Things like resistors and transistors. Dr. Bob: Capacitors. Dr. Fratkin: Capacitors and stuff, right? Now, I bet you don't quite remember. Maybe you do. You're a smart guy. What a capacitor actually is. Do you remember what a capacitor is? Dr. Bob: In the interest of time, I'm gonna let you- Dr. Fratkin: That's good. Good call, Doc. A capacitor is this: it's two plates. Imagine tiny little squares. One of them's a positive, anode; the other is the cathode. I think that's right, a negative. And they sit inside of a circuit with a proximity to each other and a surface area. And the closer they are together, and the more surface area they have in association with each other, the higher the capacitance. Whatever the stuff of capacitance is that contributes to doing what's needed to an electronic circuit, which is way above my pay grade, is proportional to the surface area and the proximity. And I think that that's better than thinking about staying professionally or technically detached from the people we care for. What we've built is a system that constructs ... All I'm here to do is to give you the technically, medically best treatment. And I can't really allow myself to engage with the truth of what's going on for you as a human being, because that'll make my hands shake in the operating room. That'll make me not make the right choices on your behalf, or provide you with the right recommendations. And I think what that done is it's alienated healthcare professionals from the people that have medical challenges, right? Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Dr. Fratkin: Professional detachment is a 20th century, obsolete concept. My concept is that what we're called to do, especially for people who are feeling the threat to their very existence, is to open as much of ourselves as we can, create a greater surface area, and have the courage to maintain the closest proximity to their circumstances. To understand what's going on. But what happens with the capacitor ... If the two plates touch- Dr. Bob: Kaboom. Dr. Fratkin: Circuit's completed, and there's no capacitance. If you get caught up in people's shit, then you lose the ability to really create the magic that lives between those two plates in close proximity. In human encounters, I say that it's not capacitance that arises with proximity and willingness to be open. What arises is empathy. And empathy is the secret sauce of understanding how to be of service to another person. But if you're caught up in them, if their happiness or well-being becomes relevant to your own happiness or well-being, then you've completed the circuit, and you lose the capacity to have the perspective of being of service to them. It's a long and involved metaphor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, but it's a great one. It's a great one. I'm gonna- Dr. Fratkin: Here's an example. With your wife ... Or actually, with my wife, being with my wife, not you with my wife, but me with my wife ... We are intertwangled. And we sometimes struggle to have enough individuation to understand what each other needs. But we're necessarily, intimately one. One circuit, my family, right? And so I struggle with different kinds of things there than I do in work. It's not a matter of distance; it's a matter of entanglement. When I, for example, being asked to see a 56-year-old person with a brain tumor and two children, the distance I can get in proximity to him is greater than with an old woman who doesn't look anything like my own life. So I have a little bit more room. Others on my team may be able to step right into tending to that father. But for me, I have to create a little bit less proximity in order to make sure that I don't get entangled in the reality of what's going on for him because it so resonates with my own fears and worries about myself. So I can manage the proximity consciously, and by having a team that has a whole different set of concerns and triggers. There, we're intentionally talking about the distance we can tolerate. The best possible scenario is you're almost touching, but not quite. So we have to manage that consciously, and that is one of the ways that I train people around boundaries. This is a very circular way to talk about what I think one of the great advantages of video conferencing in a frame, is that it's literally a frame around the encounter, around the relationship and development. It's necessarily a division. It's necessarily a boundary. And while I can get very close and understand empathically what that person is having, I'm not sitting on their bed. I'm not reacting to their place on the political spectrum, which may be revealed by their red baseball caps or bookshelf. I'm not struggling with my own biases. They are in their most comfortable place as a person, not having had to prepare, go to a clinic, and deal with the waiting room and all the rest of it. They're just at home, as themselves. And I am similarly in a work environment that I've constructed, that I'm very comfortable with. And so, in some ways, the frame around which we ... within which we encounter and develop a relationship, has this necessarily built-in boundary. And so I think that's part of why, rather than two hours, it takes one hour to get to the same place. And that once people have the experience, it's much, much more comfortable for them than home invasions. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. What's interesting is, I'm assuming ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that this has all just been learned as you built this. The rationale and the initial inspiration for doing video conferencing, I'm assuming, was efficiency and being able to connect with people who are in more remote areas. I'm sure that you had very little awareness or understanding about all these additional benefits and advantages that you've come to, that you're just describing. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah. Well, just like I don't have any idea what benefits and nuances and subtleties I'm yet to discover over the next few years. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I started because I noticed that I have had this amazing smartphone and that I'm using it to text and to call and to talk to people on the phone and all the rest. But I realized that it was worth exploring, whether or not a synchronous audiovisual experience with two people in two different places, working on the same thing together, whether that would work. Because I have this crazy, amazing supercomputer in my pocket called an iPhone. So a lot of it was curiosity. I didn't really quite get the efficiencies and the network development until I started playing around with it. The way that I discovered it was, a friend of mine who works at Google told me about a project that came and went over about 11 months, called "Helpouts." And Google had this project where they were setting up a platform that included video conferencing, the "Hangouts" app, a webpage that you could tell your story about what expertise you wanted to share with other people, a scheduling function, a wallet function, and a messaging function, all on one little webpage. And if you had Chinese cooking that you wanted to teach, you could put your page up there, invite people to take a look, and if they wanted to schedule you, they could. And you'd charge them $15 for a half hour or whatever you wanted to charge. If you wanted to help people with their business plans or filling out their tax forms or whatever other expertise you might wanna share, you were out on the sort of open market, and direct consumer engagement would allow you to do it. So he asked me, would I wanna do it for palliative care. And I said, "Yeah, sure." So I spent two hours throwing up a little thing, and within a month, I had five people reach out to me. And the first person that did was a woman who was in a hospital in the Bronx, in terrible pain, from a metastatic cancer problem. And she was miserable and interested in talking. So we connected, and about five minutes, five seconds, the technology itself disappeared, and there I was, doing my thing. And within 30 or 40 minutes, we're both kind of in tears about the big picture of things. And it was really clear that some basic fundamentals of managing her symptoms would make a big difference. So I got her permission to reach out to the hospitalist tending to her. He was willing to talk to me. I told him, "Do x, y, and z." And the following day, she was discharged from the hospital. And I connected again, and she was so grateful for that advocacy and the difference that it made in her life. And I knew that this could so work. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What a beautiful story to spearhead and show you the impact. Dr. Fratkin: So it was more about just curiosity of what can I do with this crazy iPhone in my pocket? I hadn't really put it together that I was gonna build a social enterprise called Resolution Care at that point. I was just trying to figure out why are we not using this tool? And so I started using it, and it worked. Dr. Bob: That's great. So hey, I have a question. You and I, we're both palliative care physicians. We both specialize and are passionate about bringing people the best possible and holistic support to deal with their struggles and their challenges. And we know what works, right? And anyone who's involved in palliative care understands the value, sees the value on so many levels. On the human level, the financial level, the social level. Why are we having ... Why do you think we're having such a hard time getting traction and seeing palliative care become what it needs to become? Because you're working within the system. You're working with insurers, and you're working with the whole Medicare and insurance billing component, as well as contracting. What's your take on it? What's going on? I know it's a big question. And it's not a simple answer, but I really wanna hear your thoughts on it. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah, no. I think I would probably disagree with you. And only because- Dr. Bob: That's good. I'm happy to hear that, too. Dr. Fratkin: Only because this morning I happened to have a little bit of perspective. I don't know why that is. It might be just; I hit the number of cups of coffee just right. But I think what I would say is it's happening at an almost spectacular pace. It's amazing what's occurred for our society as it relates to our mortality in the last few years. That there's a transformative change in the public conversation around death and dying. I just happen to be pretty well-timed to get up on my surfboard and ride that wave, while also contributing to that wave through having conversations like this one. But let's go back to 2014. In 2014 in October, the Institute of Medicines Dying in America study, the second version was published. It was, I think, 10 or 11 years after they did it the first time, where they did a very deep dive into how people in America finished their lives. And what they basically said in that report was it sucks, and it hasn't changed in 12 years. It talked about how much bias there was and how little capacity there was for palliative care in cancer patients. But they also talked about the aging population, the demographic shifts that are intensifying this sort of tsunami, silver tsunami of people with a greater burden of illness, and the cost of health care, and the absence of focused and targeted support structures for people as they completed their life. And they said, "Why hasn't it changed for 12 years?" A month later, Atul Gawande published "Being Mortal," a blowout success that surprised even him, about bringing this conversation to "How do we die in America?" To a more narrative discussion. And you and I, in our field, we've been talking about these issues for 20 years, maybe longer. And I ask myself ... Well, actually, when Atul Gawande presented to the American Economy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine in 2015, he was interviewed by the Philadelphia Inquirer. And before his presentation, he says, "Gosh, Dr. Gawande, you have this blowout New York Times bestseller. Everybody's reading your book. What are you gonna tell all these hospice and palliative care doctors when you talk to them tomorrow?" And he said, "Well, I'm gonna say thank you. And I'm gonna ask the question, 'Why haven't they been listening to you?" And I was disappointed the next day when he actually didn't ask that question. He [inaudible 00:40:34] from his prepared remarks. But I found myself, for the next few days, thinking about that question [inaudible 00:40:42]. Why haven't they been listening to those of us that have been doing hospice or working with death and dying, working with families very closely, learning what brings value to them? Why haven't they been listening to us? And I think the answer is that we were talking to ourselves, talking to each other, thinking in terms of big health care delivery systems and academic papers and elevating our own careers through the accumulation of initials and prestige and all the rest. The academy of hospice and palliative medicine was academic, an ivory tower, and not really directing its attention outward. And I told Gawande, his voice was completely outward-directed, and it wasn't because he was such a great doctor. It was because he was a son. And being mortal, he's a clueless ears, nose, and throat surgeon who was getting it wrong. Then he, as a son, experienced the challenges that his father faced. And that transformed his perspective as a physician. So his story of conversion was related not to his role as world-famous, world-renowned surgeon. It was related to his role as a son. And so he ... And he's such a brilliant communicator and journalist. Now fast-forward three years later. He is selected by Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, and whoever the heck, to lead an organization as a symbol of what's possible by thinking out of the box. And as a symbol, that his orientation is grounded, his career has exploded so that he is the leading, most exciting CEO in health care. And he's completely grounded in an understanding of what person-centered care must turn out to be. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That is exciting. That's an exciting development. Dr. Fratkin: And then there's BJ Miller and the traction that he got telling his story as a TED Talk. And then there's Jessica Zitter with her book, called "Extreme Measures." And then there's Shoshana Ungerleider, working in the Bay area, kind of behind-the-scenes, producing powerful documentary films, one of which, "Extremis," was nominated for an Academy Award. But these powerful experiences taking the public into places that we've been populating for decades. The intensive care unit, or the hospital-based palliative care program. And bringing people into that, that wouldn't otherwise look. Not to mention, the millennial spirit of younger people is that they don't blink. They don't avert their gaze at what's difficult. They tend to be drawn towards things that represented shadows for the previous generations. So I think there's a lot happening, that's happening very fast. And in three-and-a-half years, we built this organization kind of on the strength of that, and with the advantage of being an outsider like you, Bob. Dr. Bob: Well, I appreciate that perspective. And hearing you speak, it's inspiring. And it's true. Things are happening. There is a groundswell. I guess my perspective, A) I'm just, in general, a very impatient person. And B) I'm out here in the community speaking. And my of the talks are really focused on older groups, and I still have rooms that are filled with people who just don't really know about palliative care. And when there is palliative care in the community outpatient setting discussed, a lot of times, people have felt that it couldn't fulfill their needs. Because there's A) not enough providers, B) the offerings are not complete enough. And a lot of that has to do with the payment, the reimbursement models. So on the one hand, I do see that we are moving in the right direction, and that's exciting. And at the same time, I'm frustrated because I still ... And as I know, you see this as well. We still see people who are day-in and day-out, struggling, because their needs are not getting met. And we know what they need, and it's just not available to enough people today. Dr. Fratkin: No. It's super true, Bob. I mean, I feel exactly the same way. And for my own psychic well-being, there was a long time ago that I had to make the choice that I wasn't gonna focus on the unmet need or demand as the target of my attention. I was gonna focus on building capacity. And that I was gonna not worry about the fact that I could have burned myself out again trying to deal with one out of four people that I could get to in the hospital. I could have stayed inside of that, like most of us do, just trying to push that boulder up the hill. But what I had to do was to take a risk and say, "For those three or four people I don't get to, in their interest, not the same people but the next three or four or five or six or 12 or 250, it's gonna take some strategic thinking to build capacity." And there are so many sad stories. And as soon as I hear their names or hear some element of their stories, my heart starts to break and be frustrated with them that they don't get the service or don't know that there's a service that would help them. But my focus is not so much on those people; as it is, I know there are so many of them out there that my best efforts are to build capacity to manage and to set the tone of what palliative care capacity building looks like. We believe that it's not just whatever you could cobble together with crappy resources from whoever your institutional home is. Palliative care is best provided by a team of individuals who are well-supported in sustainable, soulful workplaces, but include a nursing perspective, a chaplaincy perspective, a social work perspective, and provider perspective. We are committed to that. So what we provide is actually pretty expensive. And the good news is, is that what we provide delivers to our health plan partners, a three to five x return on investment. Every dollar they spend turns into three to five that they saved. And they can measure those dollars. So they're interested in program development and building capacity for us. We think in the state of California, less than .5% of people who would benefit from palliative care support are getting it. If I focus on that 99.5 % of people who are suffering terribly- Dr. Bob: You'll be paralyzed, right? Dr. Fratkin: It breaks me down. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Dr. Fratkin: But I'm trying to get from .5 to 1. And I'm trying to do it by providing soulful, sustainable, meaningful experiences for my treasured colleagues. Nurses and all these people who, 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago, would still be doing the same thing. They wouldn't be called nurses; they would be called neighbors. They would be called aunties. They would be called "the ones you call for help when you need it." It's been a part of human society forever, and we are burning out those people in a terrible way. So I'm just as loyal to creating incredible work experiences for those folks, as I am to building capacity to tend to the needs of sick folks, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing. And that's how this will grow, sustain itself, by nurturing those who are serving others. Because this work, it's difficult, it's challenging, it is emotionally trying, and as I think we both experienced this, it is such ... It also fills us up in a way that nothing else does. And we don't throw the word "love" around enough. We had a meeting with my team a couple days ago. And when you try to really identify the essence of what we do, and really what we do is we love people, and then we take our skills and our experience and our wisdom, and we apply those in the way that we express our love for them. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. I was talking to a Native American fellow who lives up in the hills. And I was exploring with him his relationship to tribe and culture. And I'm not sure how we got there, and I wish I could remember the pronunciation of the word, but I won't massacre it. But he was explaining to me that there's a word that's being used by the tribe and others that kind of means "thank you," but it's being used in the "thank you" way. In a very, sort of, superficial way. But he said that the word itself is very much more specific. It's the kind of thank you or gratitude that's offered to someone who showed up to meet a need you had. If you're old and someone brings you food, it's the thank you for that. If your roof is leaking, but you can't fix it or afford it, and the guys hop in the truck and start throwing shingles on your roof, it's the thank you for that. It's the thank you for showing up and meeting a need for someone in your community. It's not "Thanks." It's deeper than that. And the presence that we bring, the willingness to love while preserving boundary, the willingness to respect the otherness of these people that we care for. And the willingness to drink a lot of coffee and build out a system to create beautiful jobs and keep the vision as clean and clear as possible. It's the thank you I feel from the community, even if I don't hear it said. I'm so proud of what this team has done for so many people we've touched. 1100, 1200 people who wouldn't otherwise have gotten this care. And that means there are 5-10,000 people who we didn't touch. I'm sad about that, but I'm proud of the work that this incredible team has done over these last three years with very little resource and a ton of coffee. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And a ton of passion and a ton of- Dr. Fratkin: Love. Dr. Bob: Love and determination. And proud you should be, my friend. And I'm excited to continue to follow your progress and the progress of Resolution Care and the impact that you're having. And your model is a model that I'm sure many will want to learn and try to apply in their communities. So before we sign off, I would love for the listeners to go and check out your website. That's resolutioncare.com. And in addition, there's a foundation and an opportunity to help support this amazing, so, so needed care. So you have a 501C3, I understand. Dr. Fratkin: It's called Resolution Care Institute, and there's a page on our website. And if people have a few dollars, they wanna donate, that's absolutely welcome. Yeah. And also, I guess I would ask them, too ... We create maybe once or twice a month what I consider to be pretty high-valued content in a newsletter. And I would love to build the community, so on the website, all you have to do is put in your name and email address, and we'll send you stuff. And if you don't think it has value, you just unsubscribe to it. But I suspect you'll enjoy being a part of our community. We tend to ... We're trying to figure out how to tell stories about the impact of the work that we're doing while getting ourselves out of the way. Just letting people tell their own stories. So we've done that with some videos, and we've done that with some blog posts and other newsletters. And the response we get is favorable. So I'd really like to build that community out if people are inclined. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we'll fully try to support that, and to everyone's benefit. And we'll also have the links for Michael's site and the ways to connect with him on our website, integratedmdcare.com. Michael, thank you. You're so passionate, articulate. I could listen to you all day, describing your views and your excitement about what you're doing. And I would love to try to connect again. And I know that there are several things that we wanted to touch on that we didn't have time to, but hopefully- Dr. Fratkin: I'm happy to do this anytime, Bob. This is how we're making an impact, is by telling the truth and sharing that.    

Dr. Rob Jonquière is the Executive Director of the International Federation for Right to Die Societies. He shares how euthanasia is helping people who want to die in the Netherlands. Now, assisted suicide is also legal. Hear how this is impacting the country.       Contact World Federation of Right To Die Societies website  San Diego Hemlock Society website Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to another episode of Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, and I'm here today with a guest who I'm anxious to hear from. He's got a rich experience in caring for people at the end of life, and he's really on the forefront of the movement to assist people in having a more peaceful and dignified end of life worldwide. So, welcome Dr. Rob. Jonquière. Thank you for joining me today. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Good evening, yes. Dr. Bob: Yes. It is evening. For me, it's morning, for you it's evening. Dr. Rob Jonquiere: Sorry. Dr. Bob: Can you tell us where you're calling, where we're talking from? DrRob Jonquière: Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. It's evening here at this moment. Dr. Bob: Very nice, and you were just mentioning to me that you're in the midst of winter, but you're having some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not a real winter, unfortunately. It's too hot. They are expecting a little bit colder next week, of course, in my youth, I used to go skating outside, and it is a long time since we have been able to do that, so probably the climate change, I'm afraid. Dr. Bob: Well, as you know, I'm in sunny San Diego right now, having grown up in the Midwest in Chicago, I had my fair share of snowy, cold winters, so I'm feeling fairly blessed knowing what's happening in the Midwest and the East Coast right now. Well, again, thanks for taking time. We met not long ago, a month or two ago, when you were here in San Diego at a conference, and I got to a chance to hear a bit about your background and what you're involved with, and I think we are kind of birds of a feather. We seem to share a belief system and philosophy about how people should be cared for and supported at the end of life. You live in a very progressive country, with respect to this, and you've been a pioneer for many years, so I'd love for you to share a bit about what you're doing and kind of give us a sense of how you came to be in this position. What was the path that brought you here? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Well, actually, at this moment, I'm involved in the international movement as it is called, the Federation for Right to Die Societies, which is an international federation of 52 societies, like the Hemlock Society of San Diego is one of the members, and I am the executive director of that federation, which implies actually looking after the website of the federation and assisting the committee or the board of the Board of Directors of the federation, and I came there after I was retired. I had been retired from my work at the Dutch Right to Die Society, NVVE as the name is, and in my retirement, I'm not used to sitting still, doing nothing, and I'm very interested in the whole movement, not only in the Netherlands but also worldwide. When I was working at the NVVE, I was started work there about five days after the health minister brought her bill, an euthanasia bill in the Parliament, so I have been involved in all the debates actually right from the beginning in the parliamentary debates, and as Chief Executive Officer of the NVVE, I've been for eight, nine years involved in the practical situation after the bill was approved in the Parliament, and now we have our official euthanasia law since 2002, and having a law is not the end of ... Well, it is the end of a process, but it's the beginning of a new process, to get people to accustomed to the fact that we have a law where it is legal for a doctor to assist in euthanasia, and aid in dying as it is called today, and we have to see the patients get what they want and that the law is used as it should be. And, of course, it's interesting how I became to be the executive officer because my original profession is a family medicine, so I have been working as a family doctor in the eastern part of the country, and I know from the beginning, I always have been very interested in ... Well, let's say, not the patient with colds, or a little complaints or things like that, but especially the situations in which patients needed guidance, whatever they need guidance in, so I have been delivering babies on the one side of the life, and I also became involved in the end of life guidance, where automatically, in that period, first careful questions came from patients especially patients working in the healthcare field, about my position regarding euthanasia as it was known, but as it was illegal at that moment. And, of course, I had never got training on what euthanasia was, how you do it, or what kind of medication you use, so it's using your experience and trying to sort of help people die in a peaceful and dignified way, and of course having been given this kind of help, I have never reported it, because if I had reported it, I would have been persecuted and probably get before the courts, and I didn't want to do that- Dr. Bob: Of course not. Dr. Rob Jonquière: No, and my patients didn't want to have me in front of courts. They asked me to help. They said not if you're getting trouble, and of course, in the situations I'm talking about, it has been patients with terminal cancer situations, who actually were really at the end of their lives, suffering from their cancer situations, although we have been treating with all kinds of care and medication and help we could. Dr. Bob: So, I want to touch on that, I want to clarify a bit for anybody who would like that, this was occurring when you were a practicing family doctor. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, the '70s, '80s. Dr. Bob: Okay, and you were doing the whole full spectrum of caring for people from birth to death, and you recognized that there were people who were suffering, and you obviously philosophically felt comfortable with providing that support, even though it was not legal. So, first of all, the statute of limitations, I'm assuming the statute of limitations, for that type of activity, is past so that you can speak freely about it- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Dr. Bob: About your experiences back then. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I can, and I mean, even you can say that is kind of a Dutch culture. I mean, at that moment, I could not go to the authorities and say, listen, I've terminated a life of a patient because she was suffering terribly, so I just said, in my records, that she died because of her cancer, which was actually the case. I only speed up the dying process a little bit. Dr. Bob: Which is the same as the aid of dying laws here in the United States, where the patients are dying. Anyone who is eligible for physician aid in dying is dying. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Certainly. That is now, and of course, in the Netherlands, it is now absolutely normal practice in terminal cancer situations. People are in such a situation, and don't want to go to the real end of the suffering can ask for it, and will get euthanasia without any problem. Dr. Bob: Okay, so let's go back. So you ended your clinical practice. What drove you at that point to stop practicing in the way that you were in that practice? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the main reason is I have always been interested to not only do my work as a family doctor, but I always liked to work in organization, to support, to develop things, to do on education, or research, or whatever, so I did many things besides my practice, and actually that became a little bit too much for a work situation, and then I got the opportunity to become the head of the vocational training program for family doctors, which actually meant that I could go to work on a university. I had the opportunity to be involved in research, in education, in organization, and it was still inside the field of the job and the kind of work I liked, which is family medicine. So, not specifically my work in the field of end of life, just a change of work from being a, let's say a medical practitioner into a person on university working on a higher level. Dr. Bob: Got it, and through that period, were you still working in the end of life arena, helping patients at end of life? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Not intentionally. Not as a kind of idea. There were other things that I was focusing on. You can say that I developed, in that period, the vocational training scheme for nursing home physicians, which is a little bit that way, and whenever in the curriculum of the vocational training, the topic was end of life or palliative care, although they didn't give it that name at that moment, but end of life care, guiding dying people, yes, of course, I was interested in that because it touched a part of my practical work. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. And, then additional sort of responsibilities and opportunities, and then eventually found yourself really diving fully into the Right to Die organization, is that right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: That was also, actually, accidentally. I was looking for ... I don't know whether you know the issue of middle management. Working at a university, I was all the time in a middle management position, and I wanted to take one step further at being, having the end responsibility of something, and then I was invited, actually, to applicate for the job of the chief executive officer of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and of course, the main question they asked me, what is your opinion on end of life and euthanasia, because they were, at that moment, advocating. It's a large advocacy group for euthanasia in the Netherlands, and I could say, I'm in favor of it. I did practice the issue, and I thought it, indeed, should be legalized because I practiced when it was not legal, and I knew what difficult situation that was, doing something, which is very emotional but being allowed to officially talk about it. So that was is where I applicated for a job of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and from that moment I was indeed more than 100% into end of life, euthanasia, medical aid to dying, and all of the developments. Dr. Bob: And, you were there, you mentioned, that euthanasia has been legal since 2002. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Since 2002, yes. Dr. Bob: This was all happening right at the beginning of your tenure there. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, fantastic. Can you describe for people who are listening what the different terms refer to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The official translation of euthanasia is a good death, but in the Netherlands, we have since the middle '80s, the commission has looked into, and we have, in the Netherlands, defined euthanasia as the intentional termination of life on request of the person who is going to die. So it means that you do something, and the only aim of your action is that the patient is going die, and you only do that if the patient asks for it. So, if there is no request, you cannot practice euthanasia. You cannot practice euthanasia by giving medication, which, as a side effect, will terminate life of someone. Next, to euthanasia, which is an action by giving an injection, we have what we call assisted suicide. I know there is a lot of problems with the term suicide in the world, but we call it assisted suicide. There, as a doctor, you prescribe the medication, which causes death of the patient, but the patient takes the medication him or herself and legally- Dr. Bob: And, is that happening? Is that happening in the Netherlands as well, or has that pretty much gone by the wayside because of euthanasia being legal? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, the funny thing is that I've been speaking with my doctors of course, after the legalization, and all those doctors I spoke to said, well, I always want the patient to take the medication himself, so practice physician assisted suicide, still if we look at the figures in the Netherlands, we are lucky in the Netherlands that there is a very quality research and surveys going on what is happening, and there you see that between 85% and 90% or even more of the actions at the end of life is euthanasia, and only 5% is assisted suicide. So, officially, euthanasia is the main, so that's the reason why when we discuss the issue, we always talk only about euthanasia, but assisted suicide is the same, and you see that now some of the patients rather want to do it themselves. Some of the doctors, indeed, say if you want to die, you have to do something about it yourself, and I'm only prepared to give you the medication as you do in California. Dr. Bob: Okay. Is the medication being administered in the euthanasia cases, is that regulated? Is there a specific medication that everyone has access to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, yes, it is officially one of an anesthesiologist, Pieter Admiraal, who you could call the inventor of the euthanasia medication, which is actually you bring the patient in a real deep coma, mostly by injecting barbiturates, an overdose of barbiturates, and after you have checked that patient really is in coma, and doesn't feel anything at all, you give again an overdose of a muscle relaxant, the medication anesthesiologist use when the patient is operated on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, and that is now more or less a kind of protocol, and even if you look at our laws at this moment, it says, if you do it, you have to do it the proper way, which is you have to do it according to the medical standard, which is using that protocol, and the assisted suicide is just barbiturate, nine grams or 10 grams or so in a cloud of water. Dr. Bob: That's the same medication being used here, for the most part, the Seconal. Are there specific physicians who are trained in this, or what's that process like? How does a physician get certified or be allowed to do this? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, in the Netherlands and the Dutch law doesn't say that it has to be a certification. You have to be a doctor. That's the only thing you have to be. You have to follow the criteria of the law. The only certificate doctors are a group of second opinion doctors. Their obligation is, one of the criteria is that you have to consult a second independent doctor about case before you can perform the euthanasia, and these doctors are trained. Yes, of course, about the practicalities, about legal issues, but mainly about what kind of problems there are, and how to give a consultation to a colleague, if they are asked for it, but every doctor can actually practice euthanasia. Dr. Bob: Okay, like in California with the aid in dying, and the end of life option, it just requires a medical license, and the hope then is the physicians who are participating are becoming familiar, are becoming experts on their own. That's what we would hope. Dr. Rob Jonquière: I think that's what's happening. I mean, if you see in the Netherlands, we have of course what is it, 13, 14,000 family doctors, 85% of euthanasia is performed by family doctors, and you see of those family doctors, some 30%, 40% do it more regularly, which is still not more than two or three times a year in the average. So, they get used to how to do it, and there are manuals. We have papers or documents they can consult, and of course, that is where the second independent doctor can help. That doctor is trained. When that doctor comes, they can say, well, everything is okay, but, these and these things are not yet okay, and then the doctor can change that. We see more or less now, that sometimes, especially younger doctors don't go alone if they have to do it, but take an older colleague with them, so train themselves. Dr. Bob: Sure, we have mentors to help guide them. Is there opposition? Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, of course, that is also important of having a law. They are legally allowed to discuss their case. They can openly talk about, instead of having the fear that someone is listening and saying, hey, you have done something illegal and go to the police. Dr. Bob: Is there opposition in the Netherlands that is of significance? DrRob Jonquiere: There is. I don't think it is of significance. The main opposition is from the Orthodox-Protestant churches, and of course, we have the official opposition from the Catholic Church, the higher institutions. We see lower ... What do you call it? Clergy. Dr. Bob: Clergy, mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Rob Jonquière: Clergy working with family doctors, and then guiding their dying patients as well, but officially, the Church is against it, and practically we see 10% to 12% of doctors, mostly on religious situations, are not doing it principally, and then you have some 30%, 40% of doctors who are afraid, well, you know, don't know what to do, how to do, and don't want to go into that field. Dr. Bob: They just don't want to stretch themselves in that way. They don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, that's fascinating. I that there's a lot of people around the world, and a lot of people in the United States that are clearly in favor of laws that are more favorable towards helping people having a peaceful end of life, you know, I hear so often when I'm taking care of people who are struggling with end of life challenges that we take better care of our animals than we do of our people here in this country, and of course, they are referring to the ease of which we can have animals euthanized but not allowing humans to have their suffering end that way. Dr. Rob Jonquière: What I have heard from one of my opponents once, as well, that's why there is a difference between a dog and a man, a human. Dr. Bob: Easy to throw that out, but just sort of deflect the conversation. So I appreciate ... I know that a lot of people will be very interested in just hearing more of the specifics of what is happening in the Netherlands. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the funny thing is, Bob, if you look at the attitudes in the population, yes, of course, maybe in the Netherlands it is a little bit higher than in other countries, but what I see in my function as executive officer of the World Federation now is that in practically all countries, even in what is seen as Catholic countries, you see a population of over 60% to 70% who are in favor of it. So, it is not the population which is a problem, it is the politician, and the politicians who many times have, of course, have broader responsibilities. You see in some countries, and I think in the United States certainly, you see more influence from the churches on politicians because they are dependent on that kind of situations, and that is the situation we don't know in the Netherlands, and in some other countries in Europe as well. Dr. Bob: The ability to influence politicians that way? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: With financial incentives and other types of influence. That is a problem ... and I know it is not unique to the United States, but it is especially problematic those influences, and in many cases, it comes down to fear and greed and how do you feel that the pharmaceutical industry or the insurance industry, the financial industry, how do you feel that they factor into this conversation? Dr. Rob Jonquière: As far as I know in the Netherlands, it's practically has no influence at all. That's of course because our system is based that if, as a doctor, you prescribe your medication, and the medication is known and accepted, it's being paid out of the insurance money, so what I hear from the States, where you pay, what is it, $3.5 thousand for a shot of Seconal, I don't know what it costs here, but maybe not more than 80, 90, or 100 euro which is paid by the insurance. So, there is no reason for patients not to have euthanasia because it is too expensive. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and that's in the Netherlands. I'm kind of trying to get the sense of the impact in the countries that don't have, you know, a national health service that covers the cost of care, and I'm sure there is some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Then, it's what you see in the States, where actually, again, it is something which can only be done by patients who have the money for the medication. Dr. Bob: Well, can you give a sense of where you think things are heading worldwide? What's your prediction? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I see the last years, there are changes going on. You see gradual changes, if you look at the United States, of course, you see more and more states getting over to laws, and unfortunately, there are impediments of financial reasons, but we see a change happening. I don't hope, actually, your new president will change something in the federal situation, because your Supreme Court is now more conservative, so if it comes to federal Supreme Court things, then you'll have some problems, but I see changing in the States, of course, changing Canada has an important push into America, I think. I see changes in Australia since Victoria has now a bill which will be in effect in 2019, I think, in June, and think that Victoria having passed a bill will mean the other states will also pass bills. They have been trying to do that, so there you see a gradual change and the only thing is I have no idea about Africa, which is, of course, a large continent, except South Africa, but that is practically not what I would call an African continental nation, but there is no movement at all in those countries as far as I know. And, in South America, we see Columbia having a law, and I know that countries like Ecuador or Chile who have even, in these kinds of laws, are more progressive than the Netherlands sometimes. So, I could imagine that maybe if they want that they would be able to change laws in this direction sooner. Dr. Bob: Well, it does seem like we're in general moving in that direction- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, I think so. Dr. Bob: Many states have bills that are being discussed, and when you refer to Australia, I'm interested in that. I just read a book called Dying, which was a fascinating account of a woman dying of metastatic melanoma, who was living in Australia, and had actually obtained medication through an online source, but was very reluctant to utilize it or let anyone know she had it because without there being a law in Australia, anybody who had knowledge of this, or who supported her, would potentially be susceptible to being prosecuted for aiding in a suicide. The law in Victoria that you were referring to is that euthanasia or- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, it is euthanasia. Dr. Bob: It is euthanasia. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, the law is called Medical Aid In Dying, so euthanasia is a possibility, so where doctors actively apply medication and also assisted or giving medication which they take themselves, so they really have a law in the direction of euthanasia. The only thing there is, and that is what you see, is that because they wanted to take the wind out of the sails of the opposition, they brought in a huge number of criteria and safeguards. So, even I have seen somewhere they said this law is the most safeguarded law in the world. You have to comply, what is it, about 68 or 72 safeguards, so it is very complicated, and fortunately, what I see for example is that more and more, just because they are in their fight against opponents, people say you must be ill. It must be a terminal illness. We see in the Netherlands, many people are maybe not terminal because we have what's terminal, I mean, everybody is going to die, so in a way, we are all terminal. So, terminal illness is involved. There's expectation that you have to die within a certain amount of months, so it takes away the whole idea that it is, and that's what I think is important. It has to go about the suffering of the patient. Dr. Bob: And, that's similar to our law here in California. There is that requirement that there is a six months prognosis, which is sometimes difficult to ascertain. Dr. Rob Jonquière: You know, probably like me that the worst issue for the doctor is to say how long you're going to live. Dr. Bob: We're not good at it. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, you also know patients who you say, you won't live a month, and they're still alive after 10 years, and the other way around. Dr. Bob: So, in the Netherlands, with the euthanasia law, there is not a requirement for the person to have a terminal illness, is that correct? Dr. Rob Jonquière: No. The requirement is that you ask for it, and you have welcomed the request, and you have a well-considered request, and the request must be voluntary. You must be suffering, and the suffering must be unbearable and hopeless, and I always say that is a major issue in our law, the unbearability of suffering is only the patient can say, this is for me unbearable, and the hopelessness is reason for the doctor to say, I cannot make your suffering bearable, so in that way, it is hopeless. And, if you together say, you're suffering is unbearable and hopeless, then you have fulfilled the criteria in that field, and then you have your second independent doctor. You must have no real alternatives et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Bob: And, that really just gives the ... it gives the responsibility back to the patient. It allows them to determine what is bearable or unbearable for them. Dr. Rob Jonquière: For that issue, of course, in the Netherlands, our population, our members of the Right to Die Society are not very happy about the law, because as they say, it is a doctor's law. The law protects doctors against prosecution if they comply with the request for euthanasia, and the patients say, okay, I have to ask for it. That's my responsibility. Okay, I have to tell the doctor it is unbearable, but I'm dependent of a doctor who says, yes, I will do it. And, many people, and certainly, I think that is a kind of why you can't call it progress in our culture, say, if I say have ... my life finished. I'm suffering too much. I want to end my life. I have the right to have my life ended. There the problem always is that if you want to end your life well, and dignified, and humanely, you have the possibility of having the right medication, or pharmaceuticals, and the only way to have the right one is to go to your doctor and ask a prescription. Dr. Bob: So, it's still not perfect, at least according to the eyes of the people, but it's- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not perfect if you look at autonomy, things like that, and that is the kind of development I see at this moment in the Netherlands going on, where organizations are trying to find out, and maybe you know Phillip Nitschke from Australia. They're trying to find stuff, well you can't call it medication, but organics, or bills, or substances which can end your life in a humane, quick way, which you get outside the help of a doctor. You can do it yourself. I don't know whether that's good. That's my personal ... I hesitate. Dr. Bob: That opens an entirely different can of worms, and that could be another conversation. Do you have a sense of how many people in the Netherlands make a request, but are not found to qualify according to the physicians who are they are requesting it of? Dr. Rob Jonquière: It is more or less, already for years, we see that about 10 to 12,000 requests every year, a third of them are refused for all sorts of reasons because the request is not well-considered because doctor sees there is no real suffering, or there are alternatives. A third is honored the requests, so between three and four and it's getting a little bit more thousand cases every year died by euthanasia, and then the other third, there the patient dies sometimes before the actually the whole process is started, because the nature of thing is, which we didn't speak about, I think one of the things when I talked to my patients, and I told them, if they really thought their suffering was unbearable, and I could do something more, and they asked, then, in the end, I would really help them. Then I saw, that actually they lived much longer in a rather good quality of life, and died in a natural way, just because they knew they were going be helped if it got really bad. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I had that experience where just the knowledge that the patients have this option available improves their quality of life from the moment I had that first conversation. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, that maybe is a major positive effect of having a law. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's one of them, for sure. Do you know the statistics, I'm assuming that you do, but if you don't that's understandable, of what percentage of deaths that have occurred in the Netherland occur as a result of euthanasia? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The latest report ... you must know that every five years, we do a large survey asking doctors about their actions at the end of life, and we have such large and solid responses on it that you can extrapolate your whole population, so you see that the last time, it was a little more than 3%, and I think in the last year, when we had the report from the committees, it was practically 4% of all deaths cases in the Netherlands. Dr. Bob: Okay. Does that seem low to you? It seems a little low to me, for some reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Well, it is low, as many people think. Sometimes, if you don't know the numbers, they give you the idea that in the Netherlands, when you walk in the street, and you look a bit ill, you are killed by euthanasia. That is not happening at all, and I would say it is only 4%. We see a gradual increase in the numbers and in the percentage. I think it is too early yet to see whether that is going be a steady phase, or whether we're still growing, growing further, but certainly, it is not as many, especially opponents suggested, as soon as you legalize, you open the door to thousands of- Dr. Bob: The floodgates come in, and people are knocking down the doors looking to be euthanized. Dr. Rob Jonquière: But, of course, I realized when I was working with the Dutch Society that since we are a rather small country, so our total death cases are about 140,000 every year if you talk about 4 percent, you talk about 6,000 euthanasia cases every year. If you live in a country like the States, where you have millions more, probably a higher death number, and then you talk about only 4%, you're talking about a large, larger numbers which are, if you look at what papers or communications say about it, it is, of course, more impressive than when we started to talk. We had 2,000 cases every year, which you can say, oh it's only 2,000. Dr. Bob: Well, this has been really educational, and I think fascinating, and I know many of the listeners will appreciate what you shared, now you're speaking around the world. You go to the Federation meetings, and is their information or issues that you feel would be important to bring out that I didn't have a chance to ask about? Is there anything that you think that you hear questions over and over again that you feel would be valuable? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Oh, I think what we addressed today is more or less what is generally felt. It's of course important that if you talk, if you're interested in the issue that you should orient yourself on the right arguments and don't listen too much to the opponents, because many times, I see opponents misusing ... for example, the numbers we produce in the Netherlands, just to give you a small example, we had in '85 or '90, the first large survey and it appeared at that moment that a thousand times every year, a doctor terminates the life of a patient without having a request from the patient. Of course, everybody said that is wrong. I mean, you only do it if there's a request. If you don't do it on request, you're actually committing a murder. We see that number getting down to the last time, I think it was about 100 cases every year, and even there, we know those 100 cases were no murders but were specific situations, for example, very small children who were suffering enormously where doctors terminated life or terminated suffering actually, and officially, performing euthanasia without request, because a small child cannot ask it, so it is a very small number, and even that small number can be explained from humane actions by doctors, and still our opponents tell that in the Netherlands, they kill a thousand patients without request, and that kind of messages, I see everywhere in the world getting around, and getting first at patients or people who are interested in the issue. So, one of the things I mostly do when I speak around the world is explaining our situation in the Netherlands, and say, it is different from what you hear from the papers because they use those wrong figures. Dr. Bob: Well, that's really helpful, and I think it is important to caution people to be careful about the information that you are letting and- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Especially nowadays, don't take in fake news. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And if people want to get more information or learn more about you and the Federation, the website is www.worldrtd.net. Right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. That's right, and there you can get every information. You can get general information of what's happening around the world, and of course, you can find the addresses of the 52 national societies with emails and with website addresses, so from there on, you can click wherever you want to go.    

Cathy Spatuzzi is a yoga and fitness instructor who works with Integrated MD Care. She shares how she helps patients and her views on why she doesn't fear death and, instead, makes sure she is living in every moment.   Books on End of Life Being Mortal, Atul Gawande Knocking on Heaven's Door, Katy Butler Find more in this blog post, here. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Hello and welcome to A Life and Death Conversation. I'm here today with a good friend and a really valued member of my Integrated MD Care team Cathy Spatuzzi. I'm very excited to introduce you to Cathy and to hear some of her insights. Cathy and I have known each other for a bit, and we've shared some incredible experiences with our patients. We're going to touch on some of those, let you know what Cathy does and how she does it because I think she's really quite an expert in her field and I know that she loves what she does. So, Cathy, thank you for being here and joining us. Cathy Spatuzzi: Hello, Dr. Bob. Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to see you. I'll share that trying something new, our podcasts, the ones that I've done previously have all been recorded on the phone. Today Cathy is in the office, and we're doing it together. It's really nice to be able to look at her in the eyes as we do this. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, I agree, face-to-face is very nice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So Cathy is … her title is yoga and fitness instructor. I know that there's probably a lot of yoga and fitness instructors out there who work in various capacities but that doesn't really begin to explain quite what Cathy does because I've seen her in action and I've seen the results of her work. It's nothing short of magical; I have to say. Cathy goes in and works with some of our sickest and most frail patients. She works with people who have dementia. She works with people of all ages and abilities. They don't even know they're exercising. They actually just think they're playing games and meeting a really cool, fun, person. So Cathy, can you just share a little bit about how that happens, what you do, how you approach your patients and just share a little bit about how that magic happens? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. So I got my yoga instructor certificate, and I started teaching seniors. I took an extra class in teaching seniors, and I really loved it. Then I met Dr. Bob, and I've always been a physical exercising person myself, and so I've made up my own little program where I go into a person's home, and we have a whole hour of exercise. So we do physical weights, and whatever that person needs at the time, that's how I meet their needs. So we do dancing, we do marching. I bring some music sometimes. I have little balls that we do exercise with. They're bright and colorful. We play games with the balls. I also have just blown up regular balloons, and we hit the balloon back and forth and play a game that way. A lot of people that used to do tennis or volleyball, they remember that, and their muscles and cells remember that and they really get a lot of fun exercise just hitting the balloon back and forth. They tell me lovely stories. Most of my people are 80 to 90, some are a 100 years old, and they tell me fabulous stories. They all have a very positive attitude in life. Dr. Bob: I've met with people, I've been there after you've been with them and it really is pretty dramatic. A lot of our patients, because a lot of times they don't feel well, they don't have a lot of energy, they're dealing with pain, they're dealing with other challenges, and exercise is not something that they necessarily prioritize or look forward to, but that's not the case with you. They obviously don't feel like they're doing exercise. They don't feel like they're working. There's something else. There's another piece that obviously you're bringing to it, which, to me, it feels like you're just really connecting with them very deeply and appreciating them as human beings, and the exercise just happens as on the side. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. I don't think of it as exercise myself. I go in, and I have fun, yes, and I connect with that person one-on-one, find out what they like, what else do they like, then I bring that in with them. Dr. Bob: We've shared a couple of patients that had had some pretty remarkable experiences, people who were not expected to live more than a month or two who through combined efforts have gone on to live for a couple years, people who were not walking who are now walking half a mile to a mile without difficulty. Can you share maybe a little bit about what that's like for you to be part of that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's a gift. I love all my clients, but to work one-on-one and to see a person that was maybe almost on their deathbed to come back and is living and they want to have a life. One of my sayings is motion lotion. If you don't move your body, you're going to get stiff, and you're not going to feel like moving so let's just keep moving. Some of my other seniors that are more fit, that's what they say, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving. So I keep them moving. Dr. Bob: You keep on moving, and you keep it fun. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Well, you have to have fun in life, so why not bring it to your work? Dr. Bob: Yup, I agree 100%. So this is A Life and Death Conversation, and part of what we're trying to do is give people just a look into how we can have an easier time talking about topics that can be difficult: death, illness, debility. So as an example, we are doing that there. We're talking about things that might not come up in normal conversation. I, as you know, go right to the point. I don't mince words. I don't hold back a whole lot. I just want to ask you and get some of your personal perspectives on some of these things, if that's okay. Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. Dr. Bob: All right. Tell me, do you have … and this is a question I ask all my guests. Are you afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not afraid of dying. Dr. Bob: You're not afraid of dying. Cathy Spatuzzi: No. Dr. Bob: Well, why? Can you share why you're not afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother always talked to me about death. Dr. Bob: Really? Cathy Spatuzzi: It wasn't morbid. It wasn't like, "Oh, I …" I don't know, she just always talked about it. It wasn't something under the covers. Dr. Bob: Just kept in awareness of it in the home? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, like when somebody died, we'd talk about it, or when- Dr. Bob: Okay, how healthy. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, uh-huh (affirmative), and so I think I've just adopted her attitude and calmness about it. For me, thinking about dying, I think about living. So I'm alive. I can walk and talk, and do all these beautiful things, but let's be present doing it. If you're just walking through life in a fog, then you're not living, but when you think about you're going to die, maybe that's a point where you're going to wake up and start being present in your life. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like thinking about dying, talking about dying is responsible for you having a greater awareness of and maybe gratitude for life? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. I think I have gratitude every night before I go to bed. Dr. Bob: I guess, not being dead is a part of that, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. Driving around and you see the beautiful clouds. You might see an airplane. Let's take each moment for today because maybe you will die tomorrow. Let's be grateful for what we have today, not think about what if, what if, what if it's going to happen. I pray that I have a beautiful day and then I have a beautiful meal and then I go to sleep and die. Not tomorrow. Dr. Bob: Not tonight, yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Not tomorrow. I got- Dr. Bob: Because I know you have some things to do this weekend. I know you have some plans. Cathy Spatuzzi: I know, yeah. I have plenty more years ahead of me, but that's what I've always thought about, nice and peaceful. Dr. Bob: Beautiful. Interesting. We both are spending time now with people who believe that they may not have a lot of time left, some of them because they're elderly and some of them because they have a terminal illness, and in some of those conversations, I hear people talking about how their time is so limited. Occasionally, they get into this pattern of feeling bad about it, and I wouldn't say necessarily feeling sorry for themselves, but focusing on how their life is going to be shortened and they're aware of that. I always accept that. I never try to convince them to think differently. That's their thought, and I would never judge that, but what I'm aware of is that there's no guarantee for any of us. I may have a patient who has a prognosis, a life expectancy of three or four weeks. There's a lot of people who are going to die unexpectedly before that person dies. We may be one of them. We have no guarantees, and so focusing on what we have today like you're talking about like you're suggesting being grateful for the fact that we are alive and that most of what's going on in our life is good, may not be perfect. Jon Kabat-Zinn, the creator of the mindfulness-based stress reduction program, had a phrase that I love and I repeated often. It's, "As long as you're breathing, there's more right with you than wrong with you." Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: That's beautiful. Dr. Bob: Sometimes if somebody is lamenting about the pain that they're having, the limitations that they're having, just remembering how many trillions of things are happening simultaneously in our body, the chemical process, the cellular division, the fact that everything is working as it's designed to, except for a few things, which could be significant things, it's still a magical design. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, the body is an amazing piece of work. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you're doing a great job of keeping it amazing. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I love working with the clients, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Some of our clients die, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, they do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, they do. How do you deal with that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's difficult at first. Dr. Bob: Because you spend more time with them even than I do. You're with them sometimes two or three times a week and getting very close, getting very connected with them. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. When they die, going into this though, I mean that's part of life, and I knew that but when they die, I go into myself and remember all the good times that we had together, but then that also brings up for me my own experience with my own family and dying. So then it's almost like I grieve all of them: my parents, my grandparents, a friend all over again, which isn't a bad thing. Yes, it's sad and, yes, I cry, but there's another layer of deepening, of healing, of comfort for me. Dr. Bob: So when a patient dies, when somebody who you've been working with a client, it sounds like you're allowing that experience to create another layer of connection with other people who have gone before them, with your family. It allows you to grieve all of death, all of the people who have gone. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I grieve all of the people that have died that I know and then I think about where did they go … all the same, questions come up for me. Where did they go? Where does the spirit go? Where does the soul go? Where does the brain …? I've read a lot of books, and I still don't have any answers. Dr. Bob: Oh, darn it. I was hoping that you were going to give me the answer now. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I don't have any answers, and that's okay. I'm comfortable with that. Dr. Bob: So you don't know but what do you think? Where do you think … what's your thought about what happens after we die? Cathy Spatuzzi: Well, I believe that the physical body dies. I would like to believe that there is an after realm, rather you call it heaven or reincarnation. Those are the things I don't know, but it would be nice to see some people again that have gone before me. Dr. Bob: So you're not positive. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not positive. Dr. Bob: What percentage of certainty are you that there's something else? Cathy Spatuzzi: 50/50. Dr. Bob: 50/50. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, and I'm comfortable with that. It's because I've thought about it so much. Dr. Bob: Well, if there is … Oh, that's nice. You're like right on the 50-yard line there. So if there is something else, then that's great, and we'll be hopefully very pleased to find out, and if there isn't, well then we will never know, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. I've asked some of my relatives that were dying. I said, "Now, when you get wherever you're going, wherever that is, give me a sign." Dr. Bob: And? Cathy Spatuzzi: I haven't gotten anything. Dr. Bob: You haven't gotten anything. I have. I think I've shared that, my dragonfly connection. Cathy Spatuzzi: I did have a feeling, but not necessarily like a physical sign, like a picture or something, but I've had feelings of my grandmother touching my hand. I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Okay. So then- Cathy Spatuzzi: So maybe yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I'll go with that. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Cool. It's interesting because there are … I hear that people are very uncomfortable talking about death. I hear that all the time. People don't want to talk about it. They want to ignore it, pretend it's never going to happen. I don't have that experience with people, and maybe it's just because I draw it out. But in the conversations that I or maybe people who … Maybe those people like walk away when they see me coming; I don't know. But I actually find that people want to talk about it and given the opportunity, they're drawn to the conversation. It's interesting because I find some people want to talk about a bad experience and maybe it's because I'm a physician and I make it safe, but they want to share how traumatic this was and complain … not complain, but just put it out there and it seems like it's little cathartic when they talk about how difficult an experience was. Then there's another group of people who were really transformed by a beautiful experience around death and dying of a friend or a loved one, and they also want … it's cathartic for those people as well. I find it really fascinating how much people want to have this conversation when it's brought up in a way that's safe, and someone clearly wants to hear what they have to say, what their thoughts are. Cathy Spatuzzi: I have found that some people just need somebody else to listen. They haven't found that person, and maybe that's you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, maybe, maybe. I'll tell you that sometimes my wife, Sandy, it gets a little overwhelming for her because she's with me and we'll be either at dinner, we'll be at a party, and I start talking to somebody and she goes away and comes back, and we're deep into this conversation about how their mother passed away or the complexities of certain situations. I just find that that's sort of a natural thing that's happening. Cathy Spatuzzi: You have a gift. Dr. Bob: I don't know it's a gift, but it's an interesting phenomenon, so. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Do you have any experiences that were either challenging or really beautiful that you want to share? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother, Jenny, she was 80 years old. She fell and broke her hip. I was her guardian because my mother had already passed away years ago, which is a whole another story. But I was in the nursing home room right beside my grandmother, and she was dying. I could see her coming in and out of what I call crossing the veil. She wasn't exactly sleeping, but she was testing the veil and then coming back. She'd come back, and she'd say, "Oh, Cathy, you're here," and then we would talk and I was able to tell her how grateful I was for all the time that I got to spend with her closely after my mother died. She said, "Oh, I want to die," and I said, "Okay, I don't want you to suffer. It's okay." She said, "But I don't want to leave you." I said, "Grandma, it's okay. I'm going to be fine." Then the next day she died. So, and I've heard this similar kind of story from several other people and the person that's dying just needs permission. Dr. Bob: But you weren't there when she actually died? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I wasn't in the room when she died. I was there the day before. Sometimes they don't want to die with you in the room. Dr. Bob: Yup, that happens frequently. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: Which is hard, which is a challenge because you don't want to leave. A lot of times people don't want to leave. They feel like they're supposed to be there through the very end, to the last breath, and it's hard to know what's happening. So there are times when someone does step away, they go to the bathroom, they run out to get something for somebody, and they slip away, and that's the way it's meant to be. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. When you describe … what was the word you used? Cathy Spatuzzi: Crossing the veil or testing, testing the veil. Dr. Bob: Crossing the veil. Testing the veil. Can you share a bit more about that? What made you believe that she was testing the veil and not just like napping or falling asleep briefly? Cathy Spatuzzi: I can't describe it any other way, but I could feel her body, her spirit, not really her physical body, but her spirit, her soul, and I didn't … I could see something but it's kind of this feel-see type of a thing, and I knew she wasn't exactly sleeping because I could feel it going out, this energy, and then coming back in. When she would come back in, you would see her body be more alert and then she'd open her eyes and then we'd talk a little bit and then … I could tell if she was sleeping versus doing this testing. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: It was great. Dr. Bob: That's great, yeah. I hear about, read about and I've seen people who I believe are in that place. Testing the veil, I haven't heard that description, but I like it. I truly believe that as people get closer to death, they're in two worlds, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Dr. Bob: They cross. They slip back and forth. So if we really believe that, then it certainly gives us a little bit more comfort and assurance that there is something on the other side because that's what they're testing, that's what they're exploring. I've seen people in the last moments or hours of life reaching out, talking about people who they see, loved ones, and I know that a lot of people would write that off as hallucinations, as due to medications. They're not really there. But I completely believe that they are making a connection with the spirit world and those who they are going to be reunited with on the other side. I can't prove it. I know that there are books written about it, a number of good books, and we can put some of those resources on the website to share, but I implore people, I welcome you to read some of these things because it really does provide quite a bit of comfort. If you're uncertain or you're worried about everything just ending or what might happen after death, reading about the experiences of people who fully believe that they were on the other side and came back to be able to tell about it can be very reassuring. Cathy Spatuzzi: Even the people that have been in terrible car accidents and then they've been rushed into the surgical room, and they have a story that they're up on the ceiling watching their body being operated on and then after that, they come back in, and they come and tell their story. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: So, yes, it seems like a very pleasant place. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, but I guess- Dr. Bob: No, I don't think I have ever heard anybody come back and say, "Wow, that was really bad. I mean that was like fire and brimstone, and I don't want to go there." Of course, as a physician, I'm supposed to be very scientifically minded. I know there's a lot of cynics, a lot of skeptics, and everyone is welcome to their own beliefs and opinions. I choose to believe that there is something beautiful waiting for us and you have the ability; we have the ability to access it on this side. I do believe that the walls become more permeable, the closer we get to death. I feel that comforts me and apparently, you've had experiences where you feel the same. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Yes. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So I just want to ask one last question before we wrap it up. What's most important to you in life? Because this is life and death. We talked about death. We've also talked about the way that you enhance people's lives, which is incredible. But for you personally, what is the most important thing for you in life that makes life really beautiful for you? Cathy Spatuzzi: Being present as best I can in the moment and being kind to myself and being kind to others. Dr. Bob: That's a good way to be, and you are doing that incredibly well. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you, Dr. Bob. It's a pleasure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for being with us. I look forward to having you back on another time if you're willing? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure, yeah. Thanks for inviting me. Dr. Bob: All right, you have a good day. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Cathy Spatuzzi: Bye. Dr. Bob: Bye-bye.

Alive Inside" is a wonderful film and movement that awakens the Alzheimer's mind and connects generations, comforting elders and rescuing youth. The film's Director, Michael Rossato-Bennett, shares how it all began. IntegratedMDCare.com " Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Alive Inside website Alive Inside Facebook Page Transcript Dr. Bob: Today's guest is Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, the director of the film, Alive Inside, and the founder and executive director of the Alive Inside Foundation. Alive Inside is a phenomenal film, and I highly recommend you find a way to watch it. The Alive Inside Foundation is dedicated to healing loneliness and disconnection in all of our lives, but especially in the lives of the very young and the very old who are living with dementia. They partner with communities to connect the generations and shift our relationship with life, aging and growing up. The Foundation seeks to end loneliness using empathy, music, life story, and film. This interview with Michael is an intimate exploration into the mind and heart of a man who seems to have stumbled upon his purpose and has been inspired to create in a much more expansive way since doing so. I hope you enjoy it. So, Michael, your life has changed pretty significantly in the last several years. From what I can gather, what started as a project that you couldn't really foresee a whole lot coming out of, to what has been created in your life now and looks amazing. What's it like? Tell me the journey a little bit. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, like every life, probably the most important things are your failures. Those are what you learn from, like your woundings, your emptiness, your hungers. These are the things that actually fuel you. When nothing else makes sense, I'm deeply interested in what makes sense when nothing else makes sense, and I think that's a very apt conversation to have in this time because I'm sure I'm not alone. I think if everyone were honest, they would just say right now, "What the heck is going on?" Dr. Bob: How did we get here? Michael Rossato-Bennett: How did we get here? How do we tell our children your president doesn't tell the truth all the time? How do we say your government isn't really trying to protect you? We're confused. I mean I am, and I have been many times in my life. I'm going to get a little philosophical here, but I think anyone living in a predatory culture that doesn't quite know that they're living in a predatory culture, has a feeling of disquiet and confusion, and like all of us who are trying to do something in the world, our efforts are constantly called into question. What am I doing? Am I helping create a just world? Am I helping create a world where life is recognizing and aiding life, or am I deeply investing in a system that is reducing the quality of life, literally for the planet at this time? I think every one of our occupations, from farmer to doctor, has to wrestle with these questions right now, what is my place in this world that we've created, and, unfortunately, we don't get to remove ourselves from it I don't think. Dr. Bob: It's interesting. As you're talking about this, and I don't know if you have children or not, but as you're talking about this, I'm flashing on my 11-year-old son, who is right at the verge ... If I asked him what does it feel like to live in a predatory world, I think he would know enough about what I'm asking to form an opinion and connect with it. But I, also, feel like he's still living in this other world where he can slip back into this sense of comfort and not allow that to influence his day to day existence. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I mean this is at the core of everything I'm working on, and it's simply the recognition of the idea that we actually do mature, that there is actually an arc to our lives. When I was 21, I was competing my ass off to win the steak knives at my job for Cool Vent Aluminum telephone salesmen. I wanted to be the best Cool Vent Aluminum salesman because the sales manager told me that I was nothing if I couldn't book these appointments for his salesmen to sell this poor, older people aluminum siding and new windows. Dr. Bob: And you believed that? You believed that story. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it. Dr. Bob: Yeah, you did. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it, and really, honestly at that point, all I wanted to do was be good, be recognized, to succeed, to have some validation, and honestly, I didn't think that the people who were in authority, that the people who were older than I was, I didn't think that they didn't know what they were doing. I thought they knew what they were doing. But your 11-year-old son, he's awakening in a world where it's obvious that we don't know what's going on, that something is happening, and it's amazing what's happening. I mean basically what's happening is we're going through a major psychic, intellectual, spiritual, existential definition of what it means to be human, and what it means to be human together, and ideas that we've had for thousands of years are no longer functional in the face of these incredible tools that we've created in the last 20 or 30 years. The computer has just turned human culture on its head, and we are not ready for it. Dr. Bob: Right. Michael Rossato-Bennett: And we're innocents, and I think in a hundred years we'll look back and this and go ... Just like slavery. At one point, slavery seemed to be a pretty good business model. We try not to do that anymore, at least in a recognizable form. But in a non-recognizable form, we haven't given up that business model, and that's what we're dealing with. I mean you're a doctor, and I work in healthcare to some degree as well, and Marshall McLuhan is a great media thinker, a thinker about media, and he said years and ... Maybe 60 years ago or 50 years ago, he said, "The medium is the message," and I never understood what that meant, but I understand what that means now, that basically, the structures that we create determine the outcomes, no matter who is in them, or no matter what the outcomes are. When you have a lot of people making money on petroleum, you get plastic in the ocean. It doesn't matter what people do. In 50 years, we won't be relying on petroleum. We won't have the pressure to create as much plastic, and maybe we can solve that problem. Dr. Bob: Well, so fascinating. Great perspective. Love it. Not exactly where I was anticipating the conversation was going to go, but I love it, and I want to hear ... So you take that. I'm sure that your awareness is continuing to mature, to evolve, and it's influenced by and influencing what you are doing day to day to improve the lives of the human beings that you're concerned about, as we both are. What's happening in your life? I want to know what you're doing. What's the Foundation doing? How are you right now serving in a way that is trying to achieve the most benefit for humankind? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I mean that's a big thing to say. Dr. Bob: I know. Because it's happening. What you're doing is serving humankind in a positive way. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Right, right. I'm not young. I'm not a child anymore, and you get to a certain point in your life, and you ask yourself, "Okay. What can I do to help other people," because helping yourself is kind of boring after a while. It just becomes boring. So you want to expand your relationships with other people, and it's interesting. Dr. Bob: I lost you for a second there. You said interesting, and then I lost you. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I was relating to these thoughts. Okay. Sorry. All of my thinking comes out of working with these elders with dementia and meeting them. You're right when you say my life has transformed. I mean I walked into my first nursing home, and I wanted to run because I'd had really some very traumatic experiences in hospitals when I was a child. They put that ether on my face. I don't think they do that anymore, and I struggled and screamed, and yelled, and fought. They finally just gave me shots in my butt. But that smell of health care, of the hospital, I swore I would never, ever step inside a hospital or a healthcare facility, place forever. I promised myself I would never, ever do that. Then here I am. I had been hired to make a website for a guy who was bringing iPods into nursing homes, and he thought that it would be a good, new thing to do, and so I did it. There I was sitting in front of a man, Henry. He was the first one that I really saw the power of music to wake the hidden vitality of a mind, a mind that had lost its capacity to connect with itself and with others. I didn't want to be there. It was very sad for me to see this human being, this shell, if you will, of a human being, who didn't seem to be able to come out of that shell. Then we gave him ... Millions of people have seen this clip. Actually, over 100 million people have seen this clip. Dr. Bob: Really. That's where it's at, at this point. Incredible. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, it was actually one of the earlier clips to go viral on Facebook. So it was still back when Facebook was becoming before they put all these clamps and started monetizing everyone's life. It was back when they were giving it away so that people would join, and so it's a completely different animal now, and that's what we're discovering right now, and a very dangerous animal as well. But anyway, so here's Henry, and we give him some Cab Calloway, and I get to experience a human being awakening. This guy, he starts moving, and his eyes light up, and he starts singing. He starts making poetry. When I took the music away, I thought he would turn off like a ragdoll. Dr. Bob: Like a light switch going off. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Like the electricity was going off. But, no, there was this residual aliveness and connection, and he talked to me, and he was so beautiful. The whole world saw this. I mean I went to bed that night and my son ... That I posted it. No, I didn't post it. I put it on my friend, Dan Cohen's website, and some kid found it and started spreading it in the Reddit community. I don't know if you know what Reddit is. Dr. Bob: I'm a little bit familiar with it, yeah. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's a community of young people on the internet, and my son is in that community, and he saw ... He came into my room. He said, "Dad, they're talking about your film on Reddit," and I was like, "Really," and he goes, "Yeah. It's gone from 300 views to 400 views," and I was like, "Oh, my God. That's amazing." Oh, my God, and then we went to bed. We woke up the next morning, and it was at 180,000 views. On the next day, like a million views. It just kept going. But the amazing thing was, for me, I mean I thought we'd discovered the cure for Alzheimer's Disease. I was like, oh, all you got to do is give them music, and it makes their Alzheimer's go away. Then there's, of course, a sad realization that, no, you're just waking up some very deep pathways that are actually spared. They're pathways that are very deep in this elemental brain. Not in the forebrain, which is really the core of I think what I'm working with right now, and that is that when you don't know where to go, sometimes the deepest parts of ourselves hold profound and unexplored wisdom, and I constantly go to those deepest places, like music. Music, by now, it's part of our DNA. It's literally been adapted to our DNA. I mean a child, an infant, a human infant will respond to a beat and other primates won't in the same way. Yes. Dr. Bob: I watched the film a couple times, Alive Inside. I've watched it a couple times. I just watched it again last night. I was, again, just blown away by the little toddler who was conducting. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, my God. Dr. Bob: The natural instinct in him, and he's a little performer. But I agree, you can see it in almost every child from the time that they're able to interact with the world, that they respond to music, and they've been responding to it since they were in utero. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: And that never goes away, unless you lose your hearing. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Which is another enormous problem. About half of the people who staff thinks have dementia, they probably have a little bit, but more, they have hearing problems. It's an enormous problem in elder care. So what are we doing now? At first, I was like, "Oh, my God, let's get everybody who has dementia their music, and let's make that happen." In some ways, that's happening. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's hard to realize what we don't know, right, or what we didn't know. When I was making Alive Inside, we had so much trouble getting people to try this, to give these elders their music, and it was really a struggle because it was a new idea. But then the hundredth monkey syndrome kicked in a couple of years ago, and now this idea has literally spread like wildfire across the world, and to such a degree that I think ... I was joking with a friend way back then. I said what's going to happen is some day I'm going to say I made this movie about how you can play music for people that's their music, that gives them an emotional reaction, and if they have Alzheimer's it will awaken parts of their brain that have been forgotten, and I said in five years, I have this feeling that people will go why did you make a movie about that? Everyone knows that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Right, what's so different. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Everybody knows that. We know that, and that's where we are. Everyone in the world knows this now. I mean I had some part to play with it, but it's that hundredth monkey thing. When something is important, and you have a disease like Alzheimer's where there is no cure, and if you have something that can help, it's going to spread like wildfire, and I think that's what's happened. Dr. Bob: Well, of course, it's very helpful for people who have Alzheimer's to try to awaken that and to bring them a sense of joy and connection, but it's, also, incredibly beneficial for people without Alzheimer's, who are just lonely, right? They're just the people throughout the nation, the world, who are isolated or limited in their own homes, or in assisted living communities, or in nursing homes. The ability to give somebody, to connect them with the music that has been meaningful for them at various points of their life, brings joy, brings comfort, brings connection. There's no way to understate the impact. So understanding that I'm curious ... I'm in San Diego. I have a concierge practice, and I take care of people who are in their homes who are dealing with end-of-life issues. They have dementia. They have cancer. They have heart disease. It's a small practice. It's like a concierge practice for people with complex illnesses and who are approaching the end of their life. As part of that, we have integrated therapies, and I have a couple of music therapists who go out. They're angels. They connect with the patients, and we see them flower. We see them blossom. Some of our patients, with these therapies, music, massage, acupuncture, reiki, they go from being bedbound, and miserable, and wanting to die, to get re-engaged with life and getting- Michael Rossato-Bennett: And it makes sense. Dr. Bob: And it makes sense, total, and I go into nursing homes, and I'll see people there, and we just created a foundation. We just got the 501c3 determination from the IRS, so we're ready to make this thing happen. How do we take advantage of what you have created to implement and leverage that in San Diego? Let's talk about how this is actually happening on the ground. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Okay. Well, first of all, you've opened up some really big cans of worms here. Dr. Bob: I have a knack for doing that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Most of the people who have dementia and Alzheimer's, they are not in institutions. They live at home, and we have a culture that defines people as valuable to the degree that they're productive, and it's deeply ingrained in us. It's ingrained in our religion, and our morality, and our laws, even to the point where we've created lots of meaningless work, just because people want to be working, and the dark side of that, not the meaningless work, but this idea that we have no value unless we're productive, is the elders that you're finding. What is their productivity when they're just sitting? They can see their death, and they probably feel they're not contributing. As a matter of fact, they might even feel that they're a burden, which is a horrible thing for a human being to feel. One of the things that I've been so intrigued about, about people with Alzheimer's, is they forget so much, but it's strange what they don't forget. They don't forget what they used to be. They don't forget that they're having trouble communicating, and they used to be able to communicate, or at least it seems like that to me. You opened up another can of worms, which is loneliness. The UK just appointed a minister of loneliness. 40% of Americans report problems with feeling lonely. We're discovering the dark side of social media, which is this capacity that it has to make people judge themselves, their real life against the sort of phony life that's presented one snapshot at a time and edited and Photoshopped. People feel this kind of not being good enough, and when you feel not good enough, you feel separate, and when you feel separate, you feel alone, and that is one of the greatest pains a human being can ever feel, and that's really ... I had a very hard time growing up and a lot of isolation, and I shut myself down in many ways, and that's why when I saw this older man, Henry, wake up, I was like, "Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God, we can wake up. We can be awakened," and that's what you've described with your music therapists go in, and these people are like, "Oh, wow, yes. There are rhythms of life that I can share with you, and we can sing, and we can do music, and it can even go back into my memory, and oh, I have these stories I could tell you." I decided that the place that I wanted to play with was trying to reduce pain. Like you, as a doctor, you want to reduce- You want to reduce the pain and the struggle, and one of the greatest struggles that I see is loneliness and disconnection. I feel like our culture ... There are things we all need to survive, and to live, and to thrive, and sometimes commercial society says, "All right. You want those things; you got to pay for them." So it puts walls between what we want and what there is, and that's not really the way life works. If you swim in the ocean and you grab a fish, it's not like you paid for it. Well, you swam for it. That's for sure. Or you pluck a pear from a tree. It's not like you grew that tree. I'm not sure that this sort of way we are creating safety for ourselves is working, and I think it's falling apart in many ways, and so, again, I go to the very deepest place. So I developed these headphones that you could give to somebody with dementia, and it has a little hole in it, and you can put their music in it, and you can plug your headphones into their headphones, and so you can listen together, and your eyes can meet, and you can be in the music together, and I thought that was beautiful. Then I made an app so that anyone could sit with another person and try and figure out what is that deep music that's inside the soul of another person. So you can do that. But the key thing I feel is that what I've learned. If you watch Alive Inside, you see all these people awakening. But what you don't see is me on the other side of the camera going, "Oh, tell me that story. Oh, my God, you're so beautiful. Oh, yes, I want to know more and tell me. Flower. Let me see you flower." We are creatures that are called into becoming. You take a child, and you just put them in a room, and you leave them there for 14 years, you're not going to have a great kid, but if you go in there every day and you teach them how to be human, and you teach them the rules of being human, you bond with other people, you connect to them, you be kind to them, you look in their eyes, you learn to feel what comes out of another person's eyes, and you learn to give to another person through your eyes. I mean the eyes is the only organ that goes both ways. There are both receptors and apparently ... I was reading the other day ... I wish I could quote it better. But apparently, there's something that comes out of the eyes. That's why we call the eyes the windows of the soul. You're a doctor. Dr. Bob: I'm not sure what emanates from the eyes, but it kind of feels like when you're in somebody's gaze, when you're looking deep into their eyes, that there's something either reflecting back or coming out of it for sure. Michael Rossato-Bennett: At the very least, there's expression. At the very least, there are tears. Something is coming out, even if it isn't a ray. But that's the amazing thing that we're understanding now, and this goes back to the illusion of loneliness. We've created the structure where you can be lonely, where you can be a separate entity that doesn't connect with other entities, and the terrible thing is that's engineered. The truth is that we are not separate. We're talking over Skype, and my ideas are affecting your brain, and your ideas are affecting me. But if we were sitting in the same room for the amount of time that we've been sitting, your cells would be in my body, and my cells would be in yours. Every cell in your body I think changes every seven years, and the building blocks of you have been white people, and black people, and brown people, and hippos, and dogs, and ducks, and dinosaurs, and fish. I was reading this amazing book about old growth forests, like dirt. There's no such thing as dirt. There are rocks, and there's whatever, but every single piece of nutrition that has ever passed through your lips only has nutrition because vegetable matter has gone through the butt of a bug. Dirt is bug pooh, and without bug pooh, there is no nutrition in anything that grows. So we're not special. We are part of everything, and we've just created this system that ends up taking our children and putting them in these institutions, and telling them to stay there for 20 years and to compete for a few little remaining spots at some big colleges. As children, we're forgetting how to be children. And we have our elders, and, oh, my God, have we abandoned them. Oh, you're worthless. You just go sit in the little room over there. I'm sorry. Now you got a little emotion running in me, and so I said let's bring these two groups together. Let's bring the very old and the very young together, and what you do when you do that, it's like a magnet. These groups are meant to be together, and they're engineered apart. So basically a lot of people have seen Alive Inside, and they call me, and they say, "Hey, let's do something." I'm like, "Okay. Let's do something." So we're down in Mexico, and there are these abandoned elders, who are literally taken off the streets by this foundation, and of the thousands and thousands that they could help, they can help 250 a year or something, or actually more at a time, because the population changes, but it's only 250 at a time, and they were bringing in these young psychology students who sit with them for 14 weeks for an hour or two, and they detective. They use the app, and they find the music of these elders of their youth, and they listen to it together, and they learn their life stories. We've created another thing called Memories, which is this ... It's a very simple computer program that basically lets you create a digital, communally create a digital scrapbook for somebody. My vision is it's going to happen I the next year, is I want every hospital room, every nursing home, that you're going to be able to go and some volunteer will have created the life story for these elders, so that anyone in the healthcare community can just scan the QR code on their picture ... We're making these necklaces for them, and you'll know their life story in two minutes. You'll know where they came from, who they loved, what they did. Dr. Bob: I love that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: What their music was because it's just crazy. I've seen so many healthcare situations, where I've seen people care for people for 10 years, and love them, and not know who they were. Dr. Bob: Exactly. Not know a thing about them. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Not know a thing about them. Dr. Bob: Right. And that's what drove me crazy for years and years. I was an emergency physician, and I see these incredible people coming through, and they're a shell. They're in this shell, and if someone takes the time to actually connect with them and ask them something beyond when's the last time you have a bowel movement? Where does it hurt? But to actually be interested in who they are. I was just memorized, fascinated by what would come out, and that's a lot of why I transitioned in my career into doing something where I got to honor these people for the person they are and always have been, even though at this stage, it's physically they're different. The spirit inside of them, the essence of that person is unchanged from where it was when they were flying bombers in World War II, or dancing in competitions at 18 in the 1930s. And so what we do, I think we are aligned in the work that we're doing. I will want to connect with you further because I really do want to talk about how to bring the programs that you're talking about, especially the program with the youth together with the elders, and sharing this. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, I would love to talk. Dr. Bob: So we may end up trying to schedule a second call. I'm going to wrap it up soon, and I just really appreciate your honest, thoroughly passionate view that you were able to share. I do want to make sure that people know how to get more information, and there will be links on my website to the Alive Inside Foundation site, and I'm happy to connect people with you. If you want, you just let me know. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: What kind of connections you're looking for, how we can help to support your passion and your movement because it's life-changing and it's revolutionary. It shouldn't seem revolutionary, because it's pretty simple basic stuff, make connections, and you create joy, right? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I think it's revolutionary. We call it an empathy revolution, because certain things in our human vocabulary have been devalued, and a lot of people, myself included, it's taken long life journeys to be able to just honor the treasure that I have inside my chest. The fact that I am alive is such a treasure, and it's so devalued in our culture. The children, we don't honor the life in children. We don't honor the life on the planet. We don't honor the life in our elders, and it's all there is, and we only get it for a very brief time, and it breaks my heart to think of how many years I spent beating myself up and not enjoying life, and I look around, and I see so many people who are not able to really ... They only get this brief time with this incredible treasure called life. And that's why I bring the elders and the kids together because I think the elders actually teach the kids, "Hey, you're alive, and you're not going to alive for much longer, and look at me. This is what the end of life looks like, and guess what? I'm engaged here. I've only got a short time left, and I'm engaged." It's been shown that older people live with incredible pain and smile, whereas middle-aged people if their back goes out and they lay in their bed for a week. Dr. Bob: That's right. And they bitch and moan about how miserable they are. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yes. Dr. Bob: Well, don't beat yourself up too badly about time that you've lost. You have lots of time left to contribute, and you're obviously doing a great job of that. So Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, thank you so much for taking time and sharing your passion and more about your project and your mission, and best of luck to you, and hopefully, you'll be willing to come back, and we'll do some followup on another episode. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, thank you for calling me, Bob. That was very sweet.    

The Teal Chair, a film that was nominated for the Future Filmmakers Award this year at Sun Valley Film Festival was the brainchild of Kimberly Ouwehand. Find out why the hospice community outreach coordinator wanted to create this film and how its impacted her life and others. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Treasure Valley Hospice website Transcript Dr. Bob: Kimberly Ouwehand is a passionate Community Outreach Coordinator for Treasure Valley Hospice in Nampa, Idaho. When Kimberly got the inspiration to videotape people answering the question, "If you knew you had a limited time to live, what would you do," amazing things started to happen. She collaborated with a local group of high school students, and what came out of it is an extraordinary documentary called The Teal Chair. The film was nominated for the Future Filmmakers Award at the 2018 Sun Valley Film Festival. In this podcast, Kimberly shares how the film came about and how its creation has impacted her life and the lives of many others in her community. I hope you enjoy it. Share with me, the listeners, a little bit about your journey, your working in hospice, and how long have you been part of hospice? How did you get into hospice, and kind of where are you in that, in the course of your career? Kimberly Ouwehand: Well, I started out in clinical. I worked in internal medicine for about 10 years, 10 to 12 years, and kind of fell into hospice, because, and it's kind of a different animal, because you're in people's homes, and you're dealing more with people than you are the clinical side of things, and so I've been doing hospice for about seven years now- Dr. Bob: Okay, and in what capacity? Kimberly Ouwehand: I love it. I do outreach, and communication, and education, so kind of I'm a marketer for it, but I do a lot of hands-on and outreach. Dr. Bob: Got it. Kimberly Ouwehand: A lot of education. Dr. Bob: I think probably a lot of people don't realize ... Well, a lot of people don't realize a lot of things about hospice, right, but- Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, that's for sure. Dr. Bob: When they hear "marketer," they probably don't understand how much that involves being with families, and patients, and kind of in the thick of things, because I know I've been associated with hospice for a while now, and sometimes the marketers develop such incredible relationships, because they're the first point of contact for a lot of these folks and people who are in pretty somewhat desperate situations or very vulnerable. It's a really important role to be playing, don't you think? Kimberly Ouwehand: I do. I wish sometimes we didn't ... I mean, I hate to use the word "marketer," because traditionally it's pushing sales and things like that. I find myself making connections and building, like you said, building relationships so that people know, like, and trust you, and they'll call you whenever there's question, and they don't understand something. I feel like my reputation should be built on trust, and I feel like I've done a pretty good job of that so far. Dr. Bob: Good. Well, you've expanded beyond just doing the hospice marketing to take on a whole 'nother realm and project, so The Teal Chair. Tell us how that came about. Kimberly Ouwehand: Well, actually, it started out with just a very simple question. I was getting frustrated that people were waiting way too long to use hospice services. I mean, hospices, it is medical, and palliative and comfort care all at home, but hospice traditionally, especially for the older generation, feels like you're signing off on a death wish. They were missing out on a lot of other services, and I loved that hospice was all about surrounding the family with the patient and making it ... Well, it is one of the most important things you do in your life is die well, but I was getting frustrated, because it's a hard subject to bring up, and people were afraid to talk about it, and doctors were putting it off way too long. I wondered if we'd made it more of just a simple question, "If you knew you had limited time, how does that change the way you live today?" That question seemed a little bit softer, so I thought to myself, I thought, "Well, I have this teal chair," and I was just going to plop it in the middle of some public area and pull people off the street and just ask them a question, record it. It was going to be kind of a short YouTube video, but what happened was, I realized I had no video skills whatsoever, and my son had taken a video class at the high school, and I just liked the rawness of it. I didn't want it to be a production. I wanted it to be real. I didn't want it to be ... I just wanted it to be honest, and so I went and asked the teacher over at Eagle High School if he had a couple students who would do a YouTube video. He said, yeah, he had a couple students, and so he kind of ... I found out later he kind of coerced them a little bit to do this death video. Dr. Bob: They were resistant. You think- Kimberly Ouwehand: That's kind of- Dr. Bob: ... that there was resistance- Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah. Dr. Bob: ... initially? Kimberly Ouwehand: There was a little ... Yeah, but he got five incredible students to ... Sorry. Incredible students to take part in it. The outcome was phenomenal. It took legs very quickly. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I can imagine if you get the support and you get sort of the passion of youth, and it's a creative process that the school could support. It's one of those things that if someone takes that initiative and puts the pieces in place, people want to talk. Right? They want to talk about these issues, and they just need to, it just needs to be presented to them in a, I guess in a safe way, maybe an inspired way that you're going to do good for other people. That's what I've found. When was the, like how long did it take to produce, and what's the status of the film, and I have a lot of questions, but- Kimberly Ouwehand: I know. It is an amazing story. We started out at a venue called JUMP downtown. It was a great collaboration. They were doing a Day of the Dead event, and I thought it was colorful and fun, and festive. The more I learned about the Day of the Dead, the more I appreciate it, and so I thought it would be visually stimulating for the students, so we went down there, and it just grew into one team did events, did the filming of the event on the outside, people looking at the altars. There was, a Before I Die Wall was set up there. I don't know if you know about that, but it's an amazing exhibit. Then the other half went up into the studio, and they were so excited because it was a professional studio. They had the green, and all the lighting and everything, and we were able to take 22 people off out of the event and bring them into the studio and ask them this question. "If you knew you had limited time, how does that change the way you live?" We interviewed people from eight years old up to I think the oldest we've interviewed that day was about 89. It was just, it was interesting. It wasn't scary. It was thought-provoking, and one thing led to another, and I said, "Well, why don't you submit it into the Sun Valley Film Festival for Future Filmmakers?" We made it instead of just a YouTube, to a 10-minute one that would fit the criteria, and submitted it, and out of about 120 across the nation, we were nominated. There were, I think, 12 nominations. We went to the Sun Valley Film Festival, and then since then, we're, it's going, we've sent it to Washington, D.C., to the National Hospice and Palliative Association, and I'll be submitting it into the American Public Health Association- Dr. Bob: Awesome. Kimberly Ouwehand: ... for educational pieces, because what happened is, it just started this huge conversation, and it's not only about dying, but it's about the different seasons you are in your life and what that looks like and having those conversations, because you never know if you're going to die suddenly or if you're going to have a chronic illness that will take a long time. Dr. Bob: One of the things that came to you when you were just posing the question to people, "What would you do differently, or how would you live, if you knew you had a limited time," did people ask you like, "What do you mean by a limited time? Like are you talking about days or months?" Did that seem to be an issue, or did they all sort of feel like they could take that and speak to it without getting more clarity? Kimberly Ouwehand: That's a really ... I mean, nobody's asked me that question, but some people did, like about how much time, but most people didn't ask. They just thought, "Okay. Where am I right now, and what's important to me?" Like the eight-year-old said he wanted to have a pizza party, and you just realize that the shorter, the younger you are in your life, your life doesn't expand very much, and then the teenagers, the college, they wanted to experience life as much as they could. They wanted to get out and just learn as much about the world and everything around them, and then it seems like, and I'm kind of stereotyping it a little bit, but the career, your middle-aged people would be more focused on balance of life, realizing really what is important, not working so much. The family becomes important... Working so much, the family becomes important. And then older people got it was usually something to do with a memory, revisiting a place or a person, or for sure it was all about family. Dr. Bob: I imagine some of them would want to have a pizza party. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I mean, and the conversations that's come out of it. When I set it up, I set up interviews, and we interviewed doctors, and we interviewed a couple of professional people. And we interviewed a hospice patient and a family who had hospice. When we were doing the interviews, I would think to myself; these kids are going to think it's stupid, it was a waste of time, they're not going to pull anything off of this interview. But what they did, and pulled, and put together, I was amazed. I thought he knows it's boring; they're not going to think it's exciting, they're kids, you know. But they pulled stuff off that I would never have thought of. Some of the pieces that I thought were really long, I had people come up and say that really spoke to them. So you really can't make it into one topic, it's a super broad topic that hits people in all different areas. Dr. Bob: Yeah, it's so personal. That's part of the idea of how do we spend our time, what's important to us, what do we value most? That's what we're getting at, and everyone has such a unique experience. So, I don't want to put you on the spot Kimberly, but what would you want to do if you knew that you only had a limited time? Kimberly Ouwehand: You know what, that's- Dr. Bob: Did you answer it? Were you interviewed? Kimberly Ouwehand: No, I was not interviewed. And I don't know if I really know what I would do because I feel like my life is centered around that already, that everything I do today, it matters. So I hope that when I do die, if I die suddenly, that people will look at my life as I've lived it, and the things that I've done, that I was nice, and that I was kind, and that I was just a good person, I think. But I don't have any bucket list things. I wouldn't do anything differently, really. Dr. Bob: I agree with you. I'm in that same place, and it really feels good to feel like I don't really need anything else. I probably would want to just be with my family, and have friends. I think about it, you being in the hospice world and me being, caring for people at the late stage of life and many of them in their final days and weeks of life, I think about it often. Like, where am I? Am I complete? Am I good? It's a really gratifying feeling to feel like I'm good to go. I would hate not seeing my son grow up and all these things. But I don't feel like there's anything undone or unsaid at this moment. It feels powerful to me. It sounds like you're sort of in that same place. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, and I agree with you too, in the film, I asked one of the interviewers, what would he do? It was interesting because really, and I can see this with a lot of parents that they would hope that they had left enough of them with their children, that their children wouldn't forget him, and his values and what he was like. I think for parents, and I'm a parent too, but my kids are getting older now and more independent, I feel I've done a pretty good job. But I just would want everybody to know that I did love them. The parent thing is a little hard because you're leaving something that you can't follow up with, I guess. Dr. Bob: Kind of unfinished. You feel like you're not, you feel like there are a little bit more unfinished business and a gap that be left more ... I agree with you more so than if the kids were already adults and launched. Was there anything you can think of that was really surprising, that people said, that you, "Wow, that was really interesting," or crazy... Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, there was a lot of things that people that I took away from there, just with a little bit of different perspective. One person said, and I thought this was really interesting, and I think I live my life a little bit differently because of it, was, "If you give up one thing if you focus on one thing, sometimes you have to unfocus on another thing." In other words, you can't have it all. You can't focus on everything because then it doesn't, you don't hit the bullseye, basically. I thought that was interesting because I think sometimes we try to do too much, and we forget that you can't. And it's okay not to do everything. And we can't do everything well. And that's why we have people in our lives. That's why we have people like you doing podcasts that are reaching out to a whole different demographic that I can't reach, and I'm doing my thing that you can't reach. I think that put a new perspective on a stressful job, to be honest with you. Dr. Bob: I'm sure that the gift of being involved in that, I'm sure there were many gifts, but one of them was this new perspective and the wisdom that came out of people speaking from their heart, from this place of a different awareness than they would otherwise have. I wonder if, how many of the people that were interviewed, who were able to share what they would do if they had limited time, started doing more of those things. If the impact is not just on the people who watch the film, but the impact on the individuals who got to reflect on that. Kimberly Ouwehand: I feel like the interviewers that I knew, all said that they had conversations later, because their families ask, "What are you doing?" I don't know about the other interviews, that we did at the jump event, the Day of the Dead event because I kept that anonymous, so I didn't want to put names or tag any links on that. So most of them, I never really heard back from. Dr. Bob: It'd be interesting if there was a way to come back and interview those people again. Kimberly Ouwehand: That would be, I know. Dr. Bob: I think we talked a little bit earlier. I think it's so important to get the conversation about life and death, and preparing, and living intentionally, to the younger demographic, into college age kids, and high school age kids, and even elementary school kids. I just feel like we have become such a death-phobic culture and we don't allow ourselves to promote these conversations. I think it just continues to, this fear continues to escalate as we get older, and no one's having the conversations. Do you feel like the film, I haven't seen it, I'm looking forward to seeing it, do you feel like it's something that could be used in schools to help open up the topic and stimulate conversation and sort of a structured format? Kimberly Ouwehand: I really do. At this point, because it really only got finished, there's a 30-minute documentary, and that really didn't get finished until May. So we'll be doing more screenings, but we're talking with BSU, Boise State University to implement that as part of their curriculum in their nursing program. And then also, with the Boise State Center of Aging and their social workers, we will probably be doing a couple of presentations with that. The biggest resistance that I found interestingly enough is with the medical professionals, the ones that are already doctors and physicians. And that one, I've been very surprised at how resistant they have been in having it be presented as a topic. Dr. Bob: And why do you think that is? Kimberly O.: I think number one, they are busy, and they don't necessarily have the time, or maybe even the energy. I think a lot of times, after you get through medical school, you feel like you're an expert in whatever you're doing so you don't think anything outside of that, except for your bubble, I think. I don't know; I'm not a doctor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, no, well I am, and I think those are accurate. But you said there's resistance to actually them coming out and viewing the film, or somehow allowing it to be shown in different venues? I'm curious, it would seem to me that this is the kind of thing that anybody would benefit from seeing, and watching, and taking the teachings. I apologize on behalf of the medical specialty. Kimberly Ouwehand: Oh no, and I don't mean... Dr. Bob: I do. I find myself doing that. I find myself doing that all the time. I hear people talking about all the challenges they have with the medical- Dr. Bob: On all the challenges they have with the medical system and with physicians in particular, and I mean, I'm diverging a little bit, but I do see all the challenges, and I see physicians being stretched and very narrowly focused, and people suffer because of it. Both from when the medical care, as well as the physicians aren't open in many cases to thinking outside the box and supporting something like this project. Anyway, I do find myself apologizing on behalf of physicians [inaudible 00:22:39] to patients. Kimberly O.: I sound like I'm bashing doctors and physicians, but I really am not. I mean, again, it goes back to the focus physicians who are specialties. They need to focus on that. They can't be looking at every other angle, because they'll lose their focus. They'll lose their specialty. I think too; they are asked to do a lot. They're busier now than ever; the paperwork is crazy. Covering your bases all the time. Healthcare, in general, is just getting more complicated. I don't necessarily feel that they're being resistant, but I do feel that they can only handle what they can handle, and one more thing, even if it is outside of the box a little bit, might be just a little bit ... Until they understand it, I just think it might be harder for them to grasp. Dr. Bob: Right. I think you're being gracious, and that's nice, because these are the kinds of things that, yes, it's important to focus on your area of expertise and your practice and to try to maintain balance in your life, but this is the kind of thing that helps to further our humanity, right? Kimberly Ouwehand: It does. Dr. Bob: I mean, this is the stuff, every physician needs to work on their humanity, on their compassion, and on their empathy. It doesn't matter what you do, what specialty you're in, this kind of project is something that everybody should be at least open to bringing in and supporting. That's my thought. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think too; I think sometimes physicians need to stop and think about their own mortality. I think they forget that they are ... They're going to die someday too, and it might help them center what's important to them a little bit too. I would hope, I hope it's one of those films that people take and just apply it to where they need to apply it, you know? Dr. Bob: Yeah. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think too, you mentioned earlier about the younger generation, the high school students, and the college students, and when we had started filming, we started filming the first week of November, and later that month, one of their classmates died in a tragic car accident. At the end of the school year this year, one of the students at the high school committed suicide. Death is around them. It's interesting how they handle it, though. I don't know how they handle it, quite frankly. I don't know if adults put what we know onto kids or if kids just know how to ... It was interesting, 'cause there was hardly any talk about it at school. Dr. Bob: It's hard to imagine that that's healthy. You would think at least you want to have an opening for the kids who feel like they do need to talk or to ask questions or to come together. You'd like to think that they would put that in place to give an opening for those who may be struggling with it more. Kimberly Ouwehand: Yeah, I agree. I think they made it ... I mean, I think the students know they have a counselor that they can go to. I think some of the friends, the girl that died in the car accident, they had a vigil, but it was done just through her girlfriends. It wasn't really ... They didn't talk about it at a school level, and I just thought that was interesting. Especially when it comes to the suicide. There have been several suicides in high schools here, and they don't talk about it. I don't know if that's for the family's sake, or how they handle that in the schools. They don't really tell us, so it's interesting. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's scary. It's also I think more than people realize, there's also a lot of suicides in medical school, and physicians. It's increasing in numbers. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think that's true, and there is a lot of emphasis on physicians and mental health care, taking care of their mental health. I think you're absolutely correct. Dr. Bob: I want to take it back to the film, and how do I get my hands on not a copy probably, but the ability to get it and show it and potentially have an event around it, or do a showing? Kimberly Ouwehand: At this point, the 30-minute documentary, we're editing it just a tiny bit, and it will be available by link. The 10-minute one that went to the Sun Valley Film Festival will be on our website, at TreasureValleyHospice.com. It's not up yet, but we're working on that. I'm happy to send you a link so you can see it- Dr. Bob: Awesome that'd be wonderful. Kimberly Ouwehand: ... before then. Dr. Bob: Well good. I'm excited, and this is the kind of thing we need to do more of this, and it's cool, 'cause this is taking a softer approach, right? It's not a death café; it's not in your face. It's taking the backdoor approach to are you really living your life intentionally? And doing the things that truly matter, and not ... Go ahead. Kimberly Ouwehand: I'm sorry. I keep interrupting. Dr. Bob: No, that's okay. This is your interview; we're here to hear you. Kimberly Ouwehand: I think the film really almost mirrors a little bit what hospice is because hospice is taking what's really important to you in your life, and everything that surrounds your life at that moment in time. I feel like it's a very softer approach to really what hospice does and is. I hope that's what the message is, in the end. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's nice. You're right. Many people don't get that. Society, until you've had a personal experience with a really good hospice team, the perception out there still for many people is hospice is basically just where you go to die, and we know that that is ... There are times when that's true when somebody's dying, and they're in their last stages, and hospice comes in and helps facilitate it and make it more comfortable. But there are so many people who spend months on hospice, and they live so much more richly, and so much more peacefully, because of that support. It really is about living well until you die, as opposed to just dying, and I- Kimberly Ouwehand: And the family, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that family support. I can see the film helping to further that concept and that philosophy. I'm looking forward to it, to seeing it and sharing it, and who knows what other projects you'll be getting to next. I did an interview not long ago with Michael Rossato-Bennett, who directed the film "Alive Inside." Have you seen that? Kimberly Ouwehand: No, but I'd love to- Dr. Bob: Wonderful film. It's about music and bringing music to people with dementia, and people who are isolated. It started out as just a little project that someone asked him to come and do some filming, and out of that, he has now created a foundation, and there are iPods and headphones being given out to people all throughout the country, and it's launched into something beyond what anyone could ever have imagined. Who knows? Something like that could be happening with you as well. You never know. Kimberly Ouwehand: I hope so. You never know. Thank you so much, Dr. Bob.

Hear beautiful stories about end of life. Dr. Bob and Veterinarian, Liz Fernandez, discuss how there are similarities in their end-of-life work that helps people, pets, and families who are dealing with end-of-life issues. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Liz Fernandez website Dr. Bob: Liz Fernandez is a doctor who makes house calls. She gets to know her patients and families intimately, and she frequently provides counsel and guidance as her patients head toward the natural end of their lives. In many circumstances, she lovingly administers medication through an IV that allows her patients to fall asleep and die peacefully usually in the arms of their loved ones. What Dr. Fernandez does is legal and acceptable because she's a doctor of veterinarian medicine and her patients are mostly dogs and cats. Although I don't perform euthanasia which is illegal in this country, I am with many patients as they die peacefully after self-ingesting medication that allows them to have a quick and peaceful death. In many respects, Dr. Fernandez's practice is very similar to mine. We both drive all over the place to make house calls, we both develop very intimate relationships with our patients and families, and we both help to guide and counsel as our patients approach the natural end of their lives. In this episode, we share some of the beautiful and some of the challenging experiences that we've had, and we discuss how it affects us to be in these emotionally complex circumstances so often. I hope you find it interesting, informative, and meaningful in some way. Liz, thanks for coming on the show, and I'm looking forward to having you share some of your insights from your really fascinating career. Can you just share with me a little bit what is it like? You have a unique model of practice for a vet, and what's a typical day or typical few days for you? Liz Fernandez: I practice in Ventura County. I work with small animals, and I do house calls, and most of what I do is Chinese medicine acupuncture, so most of my clients, my patients are older. I may see anywhere between three to six patients a day, and I drive all over the county. Sometimes I keep it localized in a smaller area, but my radius is about 60 miles from my house so it could be anywhere in that to give you an idea. Yes, I drive about 30,000 miles a year- Dr. Bob: Which is kind of similar to me. It sounds like your work is in many ways similar to mine; going out and meeting with older patients and addressing the concerns that they and their families have and supporting them. Liz Fernandez: Right, and so I have ... Since I see them ... I see them. I'll spend an hour or so. Each appointment is about an hour unless it's an initial appointment and it's usually about two hours. I may be seeing them once a week, or once every other week, or once a month, so I get to know the clients quite well and as their animals, either dogs or cats, for the most part, start to age and get near to that point when they're going to have to make some decision, we've already had probably at least a few discussions if not more; just some in general and some more specific. It's nice because I do have that connection already with most of the clients that I work with, and that makes it a lot easier to move into that idea of now we may not be trying to get them better, we're just trying to keep them comfortable. Dr. Bob: Got it. So you have the conversations ideally upstream about what will happen when things change, and you're looking now at a comfort-focused end of life scenario. It's interesting because you have an option to help create a very peaceful end of life for your patients that we don't necessarily have. Not necessarily have, we don't have. We don't have euthanasia. It's not legal; it's not available. Fortunately in California now we do have the medical aid in dying through the end of life option app, so there is another conversation that can happen when people are open to it, but everybody is aware that euthanasia is a viable and acceptable option at the end of an animal's life. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I find it fascinating because with the animals, we almost more often than not, people demand it for a multitude of reasons; the most common being, "I don't want my pet to suffer." That I totally understand and I agree with, and I support them in those decisions. It's just fascinating that ... And part of it I guess is with people we have more options in terms of supportive care to keep people comfortable and just have somebody there 24/7. That's pretty very challenging for most people. I have had clients that have the ability to have somebody with their pet 24/7 offer doing whatever it is that they need to have done in a home situation. It's not like they're putting him in the hospital or something and not being with them, it's just that they can manage all of those little things like if they can't get up from by themselves that somebody can take them and help them to get up and go outside and if they're not continent then they can take care of that in terms of changing the bedding and that sort of thing in helping them. But that's not the norm. For most people, it's just not an option. What do you do if you can't be there or if don't know someone who can be there or afford to pay someone to be there, what do you do? This other option is available especially when there's no hope of improvement. And so that's what happens. Dr. Bob: It's interesting to think about those scenarios because it's just natural to make the comparisons, right? This is between people and animals, and if you have a person who needs care to manage their ADLs because they can't get up by themselves, they can't clean themselves. That's not enough to justify having their life end. For some people, it may be that the complexities of creating care- Liz Fernandez: The other part of that is that a lot of times, it's emotional least distressful for the clients because they realize their own limitations whether that be physical, emotional, financial. All of those things factor in, and so they wind up making a decision because not that they think it's what is necessary that the animal is that near to death that that's what is appropriate, but because the entire situation is such that they can't handle it. If you have an 85-year-old woman who's got 100-pound dog and she doesn't have anybody else to help or take care of it, she may be healthy within herself, but to be able to meet all the needs of a big dog- Dr. Bob: That's dangerous. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's dangerous. Or even somebody who's 50, but they have a bad back. Dr. Bob: That part like knowing that the dog is not or the animal is not necessarily imminent, that close to death, or maybe it's not even suffering that much, right? It may not be in pain, it may just have these limitations, and if the family was able to meet those needs even though the dog is not living its ideal life like a human being who's 90- Liz Fernandez: Right. A lot of people feel like if they can't get up if they can't do those things, that they are suffering, that it is not a life that they would want, so there is that. I would say that with most of my clients they do a really good job of trying to make things work, but on the other hand, most of them have co-morbidities that are ... Like if their back legs aren't working anymore, there's a good chance that they probably have some other issues going on whether that be kidney disease or sometimes some underlying, whether it's cancer or heart disease or other things that make it even more challenging. I honestly can say that I don't find myself in situations where I feel that it's inappropriate. Dr. Bob: Well, imagine if you did then you would find other solution. Liz Fernandez: Exactly. I mean, we each have to do what we feel in our heart is right or for us, but I also try and tell people that there's not necessarily an objective right or wrong. There's a right or wrong for you in this moment, but not necessarily a right or wrong that is somewhere posted in a book somewhere that says that this is the way you have to proceed. Because we have to be honest and compassionate with ourselves as well as in the whole situation. Dr. Bob: Well, I read your book Sacred Gifts of a Short Life: Uncovering the Wisdom of Our Pets End of Life Journeys, and it's really touching, it's really well done and smart. Liz Fernandez: Thank you. Dr. Bob: It was great stories and as I'm reading it, I so often I'm finding corollaries to my life and my practice and my thought processes. One of the things that was really poignant for me is your ... One of the stories, I think it comes up a number of times when people ask how they'll know when it's the right time. For me being a physician who assists some patients through medical aid in dying, there are times when people get a prescription for a life-ending medication, and one of the big questions that they have and that their families have is when will I know it's time? When will I know that it's the time to take this? What their experience or if they're struggling to go through is what your families are dealing with. The difference, I guess the difference in my situation with human beings is that they're the ones making these decisions for themselves, no one can make it for them. And they recognize that when they do take this medication, they may be robbing themselves or ... They're clearly shortening their life, but they may be robbing themselves of some relatively reasonable time, and they don't know. There's no way to absolutely predict what the future is going to hold and sometimes they'll be inclined to take the medication sooner because they're afraid that things will change and they'll lose their ability. They'll lose their mental ability, the physical ability, so there's this back and forth dialogue they have with themselves and questioning. Almost every single time, I've told them, "You'll know when it's time. No one's going to tell you it's time. You're going to know, and when you know it, you know it. There's been a couple of people out of the many dozen who I have been with who have still been slightly, slightly, hesitant, reluctant questioning it and even to the last hours. What I recognize is those people are the ones who have younger children. No matter what they do, separating any moment sooner than they absolutely have to is a challenge. Those are the ones that tend to be a struggle. But like you said, they know when it's time, sounds like your families come to a place where they just know now is the time. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I have definitely tried to work with people and something that I do talk about in the book as far as just ... Because even in our profession we have a tendency to, and as a profession, this is so, and I have tried to steer away from this, but we're the ones that like to tell people when it's time, and people like us to tell them oftentimes. What I have found throughout my career is that if there is not complete 100% choice that's made by the person who's involved with the pet, then they sometimes feel guilty, feel pushed, feel resentful that someone else told them that they needed to do something when they weren't ready. I try to avoid that and make sure that they are comfortable and that they are listening to that place within themselves that we each have that I think it's so important not just to listen in this situation but throughout our lives, that we start listening to that, that we begin to trust it, and then we can act on it. This is a situation that really invites us to do this in a wholehearted way, and if we have practice doing that throughout our lives, it becomes much easier. What I ask people to do is to try and get very quiet and feel into their body and have someone else perhaps even present with them and feel into their body with the idea that, "I'm going to euthanize my pet today," and then just feel what happens to them. The person who's with them can watch whether there's a tenseness that happens, whether there's a clenching or a contraction, or if there's a relaxation and opening up because the body is reacting to the deepest truth. I think that can be very helpful. I had had a couple of situations where I've been with somebody as we move through that process and I've reflected to them what I have seen, and in one situation I said when you get your poll body relaxed when you thought about just going ahead and letting Sophie go today. Then we talked a little bit longer because it didn't seem like she was ready to go ahead with that. But what I told her and what we talked about was that it really was okay that she felt that way. That it was getting really challenging and very difficult to take care of her. When she actually accepted the idea, so her body was just asking, inviting her to become okay with that as a possibility, and recognizing it and forgiving herself for having that feeling, for feeling like I can't do this another day. And yet there were some things that we could try, and we wound up trying them. And then would about two weeks later, things have deteriorated further, and she was very clear, and she had no question. But what her body actually was doing when she relaxed was not saying that it needed to happen today as much as it was saying that she needed to accept that as a possibility and that it was okay that she felt the way she did. Once she became okay with this feeling that, "I can't do it anymore," she actually found the strength to be able to go on a little longer. But he had to accept that within himself first. Very interesting. And the opposite happened. Both of these situations happened within probably two or three months of each other, and the other situation was that the lady just did not want to euthanize her pet. And she knew. I mean, there were all sorts of signs from the universe, and from her husband, and her husband had a dream, and all of these different things and she just knew, and he was really not doing well, but she just couldn't let go. I said to her because again when we went through the process, not doing it is what gave her the most relaxation in her body. And I said, okay. Consciously and in her brain, I said, "Be okay with that. It's okay that you can't do it today. Because sooner or later if you don't do it for him, he's going to do it himself." And he's not really suffering; he was just in a point of not really eating anymore, but just not moving. You know what I mean? He wasn't in any kind of excruciating pain that we needed to address or anything. And once she could finally just say to herself that it was okay, she could forgive yourself for not being able to do what she really felt was the best interest of her pet. Because she just loved him so much and just, it's like ... When she completely surrendered to that, she sat with him for a few minutes and then she said, "Let's go ahead." Dr. Bob: It's beautiful. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's quite fascinating, but again if you start to listen deeply and can accept whatever happens or whatever wants to happen and trust it, then I think that we do have the answers within ourselves to make these difficult decisions. Dr. Bob: Actually I appreciate that you shared that. Because on a couple of levels, I think what you're sharing is so vitally important. On the one hand, I think that's what we need. Everybody needs ... Moving to the human realm, we all need to be able to go deep inside and become comfortable with the idea that one day we're going to die. Liz Fernandez: Yes, just have a good relationship with death. Dr. Bob: Yes. And not to say, "Okay, I'm ready to die." Not to say that I've got everything prepared or that emotionally, financially, legally, or whatever. But to just understand and feel this sense of acceptance and a sense of calm about it, and if you can't get there, then the work needs to revolve around figuring out why what is it that's keeping you from feeling that sense of acceptance or calm about it. But once you can get there, then everything is a bit easier, I think it's brighter, a little bit more ... It's almost like it's bonus time. Now I've accepted this; there's my ultimate endpoint, now let's get on with life. Liz Fernandez: Right. Part of why I wrote the book was not only just for clients, but for practitioners and then just the general public. Because the whole idea is what my book tries to talk about and what I'm passionate about is just that. It's the idea of having a relationship with death that makes it less scary. Be able to embrace it, to dance with it, to recognize it everywhere. Things are dying all the time. We push it away so much we deny even the idea. No one wants to say the word. It becomes this big scary boogeyman and the big monster under the bed. Dr. Bob: It does not have to be that way. Liz Fernandez: That's a cultural thing. It's like can we just start just have a keep the conversation going. Dr. Bob: And I think we are. I mean, that's part of what we're doing, right? That's why we have this ... That's why I have a life and death conversation. There are people like us who are not only comfortable talking about it but shine when we're talking about it. Because it's like being part of a club where you understand where this is coming from, where this conversation comes from. Not because we're morbid or want to talk about dying or don't love life, it's because we do love life. And we love life enough to say, "And one day this is going to end." And that's going to be okay too because that's We can maybe by doing this, by having these conversations and people listen to it and they think, "Wow, that's an interesting way of looking at it." Liz Fernandez: Broadening the perspectives because there is a sacredness to it. There is this deep sense of ... I mean, it pulls us into silence. I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to speak to a group of high school students who are interested in veterinarian medicine, and this is the topic we talked about. We talked about ... I just described the state that one gets into when one watches a sunset, and you're just completely present. That's kind of what meditation is, but it's also what happens when we are communing with death if you will. I mean, if we're present with someone who's dying, and that silence, it's just so full. There's so much life and love there. Dr. Bob: And sadness, right? There's loss, there's all of it, but it's the whole continuum. Liz Fernandez: It's all of it, exactly. And that's the other thing that I try and really focus on. It's the idea that it's not either or. You don't have to deny anything. You don't have to deny that you feel devastated or just horrible for whatever the experience is, and at the same time at some point, everyone who's ever gone through a grieving process knows that there is this ... All of a sudden flash will get in your head, and you'll start smiling and laughing when you're thinking of this person who you miss so dearly. You're feeling it all. That's what I mean I think it's important. That we allow ourselves to feel all of that. It's like clouds. They come, and they go, and your feelings and your emotions are going to be all over the map as part of the grieving process. One of the [inaudible 00:26:09], a friend of mine recently who passed away. She was very aware, and she lived so fully. I have another client whose dog is ... They called me a month ago thinking it was time and it's not yet, and they're just kind of writing with it. The idea to be able to live fully knowing very clearly because you have a terminal diagnosis, that your time is very limited, is ... I've seen only either in animals because they don't get all hung up, but in people, those that have really, really accepted the idea, they're older, and they can live like you said, very fully because of that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. For me that's a big part of my mission, and it sounds like of yours, is to create this comfort to allow the loved ones who are part of this experience to have it be as peaceful and potentially transformative as possible, so they can go on the rest of their lives feeling a sense of peace about it, feeling a sense that they did everything right, that they did the best possible in support of their loved one. Yes, it's important to make it comfortable for the person who's dying and to reduce the fear and to reduce the struggle, but so much the loved ones go on for years or decades having to carry that experience with them. It's a beautiful experience if it has been well explained and accepted, and the processing has been allowed to happen, it can be amazing what it opens up for them or allows them to experience. Which is why it's so it's so unfortunate and challenging one when people die suddenly. Or animals when death happens suddenly, and people haven't been able to prepare. You know what my solution for that is? Always be prepared. I think about that. I was in [inaudible 00:28:38] for 20 plus years. From early on in my career and in my adulthood, it became very clear to me how quickly things could change, how random things were, and so I guess I got comfortable with this idea that I could be just removed from life instantly or traumatized. I made a very conscious decision to tell people what I wanted them to know. To not leave things hanging. I'm almost to the point where my kids when I would leave the house they, "I know dad, I know you love me. I know. Okay." We have to hug again, and ... Liz Fernandez: They say when they're 13, right? Dr. Bob: Yeah, but I don't care. This is my thing. Liz Fernandez: They will appreciate it. Dr. Bob: Let's hope so. Liz Fernandez: No, I absolutely agree. That is hard when people leave us suddenly. It is wise to be really authentic in your feelings and leave things ... What makes your people know. I have always done the same. It's like, is there anything I need to say to anybody that I know? I try and do that. Dr. Bob: Well, who knows. Maybe this is just a reminder for somebody just to do it a little bit more. I feel like people who ... Well, anyone who has a pet certainly, or anybody who is interested in exploring the experiences in the mind and insights of someone like you who's around death on a daily bases would benefit from getting a hold of your book. We'll put a link to the book on our website, which is integratedmdcare.com. Once this episode airs, then it will be available. I thought it was wonderful. I gained a lot of insights out of it. I'm sure many other people have as well. Liz Fernandez: Well, great. I am so pleased to hear that and thank you for offering to put it on the website. Dr. Bob: Well, Liz, thank you again for taking the time out of your day. Liz Fernandez: And thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Dr. Bob: All right. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.

Bill Palmer has dedicated much of his life to helping people get comfortable with death. Hear why he has hosted more than 75 Death Cafes and what he's learned from them and the people who attend. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Death Cafe website Transcript Dr. Bob: My guest on today's podcast has been on a really interesting journey over the past several years. Bill Palmer is a successful executive coach and management consultant who lives in Oakland, California. After a personal experience with a loved one who died while being supported by an excellent hospice organization, Bill was inspired to come home to Oakland and start volunteering with other people on hospice. And then he began hosting Death Cafes. To date, Bill's hosted over 75 Death Cafes for members of his community up in Oakland. If you're not familiar with Death Cafes, you will be after listening to this very informative podcast. Bill has had incredible insights through many, many hours spent with hundreds of people openly discussing death and dying. From the very practical aspects to the emotional and spiritual issues. On this podcast, he shares some of the insights that he's gained with us. I believe this can help you become more comfortable having those meaningful and really important conversations that you should be having with your loved ones and with yourself. I hope you're as grateful for these insights and reminders as I was, as I was speaking to them. Bill, thank you so much for being willing to spend some time with us and share a bit of your experience and knowledge with the listeners. Bill Palmer: Sure you're welcome. Dr. Bob: You have an interesting life, I'm assuming. For some reason, you have chosen to dedicate yourself to helping people get more comfortable talking about death. How did that come about? What was the ... My understanding is that you're a business coach and that you're coaching people through different aspects of business and leadership. How do you become a Death Cafe leader from that place? What was your journey? Bill Palmer: The journey really started actually, quite a few years ago when my mother was admitted as a hospice patient in Florida. She received incredibly good care at the Hospice of Palm Beach County where she lived at the time. As a business coach, and as an organizational development consultant, I was struck mostly by the wonderful care that she and my family received, but I was also struck by the incredible business alignment and sense of higher purpose in that hospice. At the time, I thought it was unique. And since then I volunteered in several different hospices. I found that to be more the rule than the exception. Somehow, rather, and I don't recall exactly how I came across a guy named John Underwood who lived in London, and who was the founder of Death Café. It just seemed like a great idea to me at the time. I became a hospice volunteer because I wanted to give something back. It didn't especially require any special skill to be a hospice volunteer. Sometimes just sitting with somebody, visiting, doing a respite visit something like that. But Death Cafe appealed to me because I could bring to bear some of the skills that I feel I have in terms of leading groups and speaking with individuals in an open and honest and kind of free, willing environment. So, I decided I would take John's advice and example and do a Death Café, which is actually pretty easy to do. Dr. Bob: You have the model, right? He shared the model with you and ... From my understanding ... Tell us what a Death Cafe for people who don't really understand it. Bill Palmer: Well, first of all, there's a website called www.deathcafe.com, and it gives a full explanation not only of what a Death Cafe is but how to start one if you want to in your own community. A Death Cafe is simply a free and open ... Free meaning there's no fee to attend, a group meeting of people, whoever wants to come, who want to talk about any aspect of death that interests them. That could be anything from where do I get a will to, deep philosophical and religious concerns to, what are the regulations about scattering ashes to, my companion died 40 years ago and I'm still grieving to, my spouse died last week and I feel nothing. There's an incredible richness of experience and this is going to sound really strange, but they're actually fun. There's a lot of laughter in a Death Cafe. Some of that laughter is just nervousness about speaking about a taboo subject, but some of it is just appreciation of life. If I could make one generalization about the Death Cafes, people leave feeling strongly that what they're doing in their lives right now, whether they're close to death or whether they feel like they're very far away, takes on an added significance if they can find a way to accept the fact that we're all going to die. One thing that surprised me about the 75 Death Cafes I've led is the number of people who apparently, intelligent, responsible, normal people who actually don't really think they're going to die. Dr. Bob: They certainly act like that, right? Bill Palmer: Yeah. Like I said, responsible, taxpaying, voting, civic-minded people who don't have a will, who don't have an advanced care directive, who've never discussed their wishes for their care towards the end of their lives. It is just an indication of the power of the taboo that people who in most every other aspect of their lives behave quite responsibly. But in this one area, even after they see and hear about the chaos that ensues if you die without a will, if you die without an advanced care directive, if you die or become disabled, even after they hear stories about that, it doesn't seem to get them. Dr. Bob: Do you think that people are denying that they're going to die or that they just think somehow things are going to work out? They just don't want to ... They don't feel like they need to do the preparation because things just have a way of working out? Bill Palmer: Well, I guess on an intellectual level, of course, they know they're going to die. But I think on some kind of emotional level, like a child, they don't really believe it. But I think it's probably a little bit of both, is just if you've never sat down and filled out an advance care directives, and you're using a good one, I'd ask some pretty tough questions. For example, if you don't really know what resuscitation is like, you might think sure, resuscitate me. And if you find out what resuscitation is actually really like in many cases, you might decide something very different. Dr. Bob: Right, in most cases. I think people, they watch TV shows, they watch ER or St. Elsewhere, these shows that depict somebody having a cardiac arrest. They do a couple of things and then a few seconds later they sit up and everyone's relieved, and it doesn't depict the absolute horror that ensues when somebody's doing chest compressions and ribs are breaking, and there's virtually no chance of survival in the vast majority of cases. So, yeah, are those kinds of things discussed even at that kind of graphic level? Are people open to hearing those kinds of things when they show up for the Death Cafes? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think so. Anyone who leads a Death Cafe, including myself, leads it with a very light touch. There's no schedule of activities. There are no small groups. There are no icebreakers or anything like that. It's just open conversation. If somebody brings that up, people listen, and I think people are affected by it. There is a great deal of information that gets shared. A common statement is, my family won't discuss my death with me. I will or someone else in the group will say, "Well, here are some great resources." The conversation project, for example, can give you some tips and guidelines and do's and don'ts for, how do you have this conversation with people that don't want to talk about it? It's not an easy thing. So, I think there's that and there's a sense of comfort and community and that people find out well, gosh, I'm not alone in this. Other people feel this way too, or are afraid of the same thing, or have had a similar experience. I think it's comforting to people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Oh, it's rich, and like you say, it's a safe space. Interestingly, I haven't been to one for a bit, but when I went to a few Death Cafes here in San Diego, and they did break up into small groups like four people and then there were some sample questions to stimulate conversation. There was a little bit of discussion as a group. I think as I remember, representatives from the small groups talked about some of the insights that came out. But I felt like there were so many people in the room, there were maybe 50 to 60 people in the room, and I felt like we missed getting the insight from more people in that space. So, I feel like maybe the open format like you're describing could be even more effective if everybody who wants to speak has a chance to. Bill Palmer: Well, anyone who's interested in starting a Death Cafe can read on the Death Cafe website, very specific and clear instructions for leading one. I think that if someone is fortunate enough to get 50 or 60 people at a Death Cafe, that's nice, but I think it's an unwieldy number. I know that I've always limited the attendance of Death Cafe to 20. Even at 20, it can be a bit unwieldy. So, I think the smaller group dynamic works. I know I was asked to help with a Death Cafe that was being sponsored in a retirement community here in the East Bay in California. 40, 50 people showed up. Yeah, we split up into small groups, but it just wasn't as satisfying. It is just really difficult to manage. If anybody's considering doing it, I would strongly recommend that you limit the attendance. You can use a website like Eventbrite which is a free ... It's like Evite, or Eventbrite, one, they're pretty much the same. You can invite people to purchase free tickets, or just sign up for registration. Then you can limit it to 15 or 20. Dr. Bob: How did you go about finding a location? Because if you're there's no fee, I'm assuming you've done 75 of these, I'm assuming that you're trying to avoid spending a lot of your own money on these. Is there money available from any organization to help defray costs of putting these on? Bill Palmer: Actually, to be specific, The Death Cafe, you can charge a fee if it's to reimburse the cost. For example, if you rent some space or if you provide some refreshments, you can recoup the cost with nominal fees. I was very fortunate. There's a funeral home here in Oakland called Chapel of the Chimes. They have a long, long history of community involvement and a beautiful setting. They have a lovely acreage and their buildings are fantastic. They have a high commitment to community service. So, I called him up and I said, "Would you sponsor a Death Cafe? I.e. give us free publicity, give us free space?" They said, "Yeah, we'll do that, and we'll also provide coffee and cookies and donuts for you. Because it's right in line with the way that we want to be involved with the community." Death Cafe Oakland gets free space and a little bit of free publicity. They get 20 people a month walking in there who maybe otherwise wouldn't know about Chapel of the Chimes. They've just been great to us. Churches are likely spots, community centers are likely spots. Synagogues are likely spots, and funeral homes I think. There's an obvious disincentive for certain people, well, I don't want to go to a funeral home ever for any reason, but it's worked for us very well. Dr. Bob: Right? Well, my sense ... So, a great alignment, it seems like a great partnership as long as everybody's approaching it with the right intention, and it's comfortable. You don't want to partner with somebody who's going to be pushy and pushing their services. It sounds like that's clearly not happening. But the people who are coming to Death Cafes are probably the same people who don't mind walking into a funeral home. Bill Palmer: That's probable. Dr. Bob: You've got a bit of a self-selected group. Well, that's helpful. I appreciate that. So, you've done 75 of the Death Cafes. When was your first one? Do remember- Bill Palmer: March, of 2013. We actually had our 76th last night. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. So, you've spent 76, and then they're probably what, an hour and a half to two hours each? Bill Palmer: Two hours, yeah. Dr. Bob: Okay. You've had a lot of time to hear people sharing. I'm sure that you are well aware of some of the gaps and the challenges and the struggles around living and dying. Can you share some of the top insights that you've gained from the experience, and offer some of those to the listeners? Bill Palmer: I've thought about this a lot. Something that jumps out at me is that how we die in America is largely a function of race and wealth. Death Cafe in Oakland or the part of Oakland that we're in is a very different thing than a Death Cafe might be in a very different part of Oakland. That jumps out at me constantly. Another thing that jumps out at me is, we live in a secular world, many of us do. Certainly, here in California, at least in the East Bay, in the Bay Area. I'm not sure that that's a bad thing but another thing that jumps out at me is that the loss of rituals, of customs, and community, most religions supply ... Things are taking their place but if you look at the Jewish religion, or you look at Islam, or you look at Catholicism, really any of the major world's religions, Hindu, there are very specific rituals and customs around death that are a comfort, and that allow people to navigate or at least help them to navigate through what is painful and difficult. So, I think that a lot of the interest in Death Cafe and in the conversation around death, it's much larger than Death Café, is around some of the loss of those rituals and the lack of replacements for them. Dr. Bob: I started to write down the statement because I'm sure it was going to be something really valuable. Could you finish the statement, the loss of rituals, customs and community around the time of death has- Bill Palmer: Left a vacuum where people are alone. They don't have a way to navigate through that first, terrible few days, weeks, months. I just think it makes it harder. Dr. Bob: It's a vacuum, I can see that. So, people were coming to the Death Cafes in part to help to fill that void, that vacuum, or because they're afraid that that will be there? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think on two levels. One is simply, what are rituals that I could participate in that I no longer an observant and fill in the blank. Catholic or Jew or Muslim or whatever. There are rituals that people have created in this country or reinvented in this country about dying at home, and how to care for the body of someone who has just died, against the medicalization and hospitalization, and institutionalization of death. So, I think it's both those things. Some of it is just information. What am I supposed to do? Where can I go to find some community around it? Dr. Bob: The practical issues that can really lead to a lot of stress and anxiety if they're not addressed or planned for. Bill Palmer: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: Any other big insights that are jumping out for you? Bill Palmer: Unfinished business. I can't tell you. I haven't done an exact count, but probably in the 75 Death Cafes, we've had, oh gosh, 500, 600 people come through there. What I constantly hear is five years, 10 years, 20 years after someone died, that the unfinished business that I had with that person haunts me. I never forgave them, or they never forgave me. I had a sister, brothers, spouse, father, mother, son, daughter, and I never resolved what it was that drove us apart. To me, unfinished business in our relationships is the gasoline that gets thrown on the fire of grief. It just makes it all that much worse because you can't fix it once they're gone, they're gone. So, that's something that I hear over and over again. Dr. Bob: Do you offer resources ... it seems to me like ... I think one of the things that felt a little bit dissatisfying for me about the Death Cafes, was that there were people who are clearly looking for support and needing additional help and resources, and there wasn't ... Because it's not promotional, you're not giving out pamphlets or directing people specifically to resources. It feels like there would be an opportunity to bring in some experts and to have people bring in their specific questions to get that kind of guidance. What's the thinking on that? Bill Palmer: Well, I think the thinking is, and it may be flawed is that, above all, John Underwood the founder of Death Cafe did not want to commercialize. I've had any number of invitations from perfectly respectable, fine people who have a book, they have a program they have this, that or the other thing, and they want to come in and in effect, make a sales pitch. Under normal circumstances, I'd say that'd be fine. But I think it leaves us open to having to vet them, having to know what they say. My solution has been to, I've created a Facebook page for Death Cafe Oakland. I post resources there. If somebody says, "Well, gee, how do I start this conversation with my spouse?" I can mention the conversation project. I can also tell people to look on that Facebook page, which is open to the public. You don't have to have attended Death Cafe Oakland to see it. You can find wills, you can find an Advance Care Directive. You can find lots and lots of research. So, I agree with you that the one thing I do specify is that, and I say this at the beginning of every Death Café, is this is not grief counseling. So, if you're grieving, what I say is, please talk about if you want to, we will support you, but it's not grief counseling in the sense that I personally cannot offer you continuing support. Dr. Bob: Yes, it's not a support group. It's a forum, right? With a lot of people coming for different reasons? Bill Palmer: Right. I can refer them ... They can do a Google search as easily as I can on bereavement groups. There's many of them. But I agree with you, my solution is a bit of a compromise, and hopefully, it's workable, but probably every single person who ever came to Death Cafe Oakland who wanted a specific resource for a specific need sometimes didn't get it. Dr. Bob: You're staying true to a mission and that's honorable and it makes sense because you could open it up for all kinds of challenges if you don't keep the boundaries clear, and you're providing ... Again, you're doing this all as a volunteer, right? You have a career and you have to divide your time between things that allow you to pursue that and to ... I really applaud you, commend you for your passion and commitment to this. It's really remarkable. Bill Palmer: The irony is I get more than I give. I appreciate you for saying that, thank you. Dr. Bob: Just to quickly follow up on that, what have you gotten? How has it changed you to have this experience and to be part of this movement? Bill Palmer: Well on a very practical level, to avoid any hint of hypocrisy, I have filled out every form known to humanity with regard to my death, and I'm closer in terms of age, I've got a lot more behind me than I do ahead of me. I think that what I've gotten, the most valuable thing I've gotten about that is, if not an acceptance of it, but a clear idea of, if I have my way, how I want it to go to know exactly what I think is right for me in terms of end of life care. If I'm not able to make decisions or to be mentally competent, a great deal of faith in the agreements that I have with my family, specifically my daughter and my son, who I 100% trust will carry out my wishes should I not be able to act on my own. So, that's a huge gift, that really is. Just the incredible richness and variety of the people who show up, I'm always interested in groups of people. I'm never bored in a group because I'm always watching to see and hear and feel what's going on, and they never disappoint me. It's always fascinating. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, especially when they're talking about issues that are so vital and important to them. Do you still have any fear or concerns about what lies ahead for you? Bill Palmer: Sure. I think the idea of gradually losing capabilities is what bothers me and bothers most people that I talk to. Not that I'll be dead, but that I won't be able to move, or I won't be able to speak, or I won't be able to hear, or see, and then that gradual loss of capability, of mobility. Of course, I'm afraid of that. I've also been a hospice volunteer and seen people who seem to live with a quality of life, whose lost a lot. So, I take a little comfort in that. But yeah, that scares me. Dr. Bob: That is such an interesting awareness, right? That some people when they lose certain capabilities, certain degrees of independence, when they're dealing with challenges, some people are ready to die because they've lost these things and it's intolerable for them and they're ready to check out as soon as possible. Then there are others who just handle it with such grace and acceptance and even joy. I don't know what the secret formula is, I'm looking for it. Because I want to be able to A, have it for myself, and B, be able to prescribe it for my patients. But it's such a unique individual, I guess, a way of being in the world. I try to figure it out, but I haven't been able to, and I'm still working on that. Bill Palmer: Let me know when you do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I will. You'll be one of the first ones. As far as ... I think most of us share a little bit of the fear of the unknown of what's coming. I guess one of the things that I'm really passionate about now is helping to give people a greater sense of understanding, a greater sense of control over the circumstances that they may find themselves in. Part of that is by doing all the right preparation, filling out all the right paperwork, having the conversations with those who will be responsible for making those decisions if you can't. But also, I think ... Do you feel like you have a medical team, do you feel like you have a physician who if and when things become really challenging or intolerable for you, will engage at the level that you need to support you through that difficult challenging last journey? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I do. I am a Kaiser Permanente member. And one of the criteria for my primary care physician that I insisted on was somebody who would not only understand my wishes about that but who would act upon them. The interviews that I did, I found a physician who I'm reasonably certain will honor my wishes. My advanced care directive is scanned into my medical record there... it's a crapshoot a little bit- Dr. Bob: A little bit, it always is. Bill Palmer: You fall down on the street and nobody knows who you are, and they take you to whatever hospital, the ER people are bound by law and by custom to do everything that they can to resuscitate you. Is there a chance it could all go sideways? Yeah, but I feel like ... I've taken every precaution I could to try to make it go the way that I want, and my physician she seems like she's just fine with it. So that's important. Dr. Bob: Well, let's hope whenever it happens, many many years in the future, she'll probably be retired, and you'll have to have a new person who comes on ... I guess that's a good reason to try to find younger doctors so that you connect with. Well, this has been great. I feel like we've given people a great overview of what the Death Cafes are designed to do, and hopefully given some insight into where some of the challenges and struggles people face are, and how to try to mitigate those. I appreciate your time. If you have any burning thoughts that you want to share before we sign off, I am all ears. If you feel like you're complete with what we've discussed, that's totally cool too. Bill Palmer: No burning thoughts, but I want to thank you for the time, and for your thoughtful questions and statements. It was great to connect with you and someday, some way I hope our paths will cross. Thank you again. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Bill Palmer, founder and curator of Death Cafe Oakland, and I'm sure our paths will cross hopefully fairly soon.