Podcast appearances and mentions of preston sprinkle

Caller Questions & Discussion: Dr. Jacqui discusses what to do when someone you know is suicidal. My 21-year-old nephew is an atheist, uses substances to drown his sorrows, and has put his hands on his mother more than once. We lost a sibling to suicide, so that might be why my sister is overprotective. The hosts discuss why betrayed women are reluctant to get help for themselves. How do I love and support my 22-year-old daughter without supporting the lesbian lifestyle? My daughter is in a lesbian relationship, and we are Christians who want to love and support her while staying true to our beliefs. New Life Live — Program Transcript Air Date: September 10 Hosts: Brian Perez, Dr. Alice Benton (Clinical Psychologist), and Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist), with a visit from New Life President Becky Brown Welcome to New Life Live, the premier place to receive free advice from Christian psychologists and counselors for the mental, emotional, relational, and spiritual challenges you face. Since 1988, we’ve offered compassionate responses that combine God’s truth with proven psychological principles to guide you toward healing. Our phone lines are open. Call us now at 1-800-229-3000. Opening: A Conversation About Suicide Awareness Brian Perez: Hey, welcome to New Life Live. Thank you so much for joining us today. My name is Brian Perez. I’m here with clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris. Ladies, it is so good to be here with you today. Jacqui, what’s on your mind to start us off? Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, with it being Suicide Awareness Day, I have been thinking about how important suicide conversations are and how difficult they are. You know, sometimes we notice that somebody’s not themselves and maybe they’re withdrawing or talking about being too much of a burden, saying people would be better off without them. Maybe they’ve started to seem hopeless or wanting to get rid of things, and we start to worry about their safety. But then we become afraid ourselves, and in our fear we don’t ask the question. I’ve found amongst my friends and family and even clients that people are often surprised when I very directly say, “Are you thinking about ending your life? Are you thinking about suicide? Are you thinking about harming yourself? Are you thinking about harming someone else?” And it’s because we don’t want to make people feel bad. So out of our own fear, we don’t do the very thing someone needs. I have heard people say, “Well, I don’t want to cause them to do that,” or “I don’t want to put it on their mind if it’s not already on their mind.” But asking someone directly about suicide doesn’t put the idea in their head. It actually lets them know that you see them, you care about them, that they matter, and that you’re willing to hear what they have to say. And as Christians, sometimes I think we feel pressured to immediately give a scripture, or “I’ll pray for you,” or tell people, “God has a plan.” And yes, those things are true and they can be meaningful, but it’s often not the right answer. Often people just simply need you to be willing to stay. They need to know that they matter enough that even though they are in pain, and their pain hurts you, you will sit with them — that they do matter. So listen. Don’t judge. Don’t minimize their pain — “Oh, it’s fine, we all go through things like that,” or “That happened a long time ago, you should be over that by now.” Don’t try to fix everything in the moment. Sometimes people just need to sit in what hurts, and that is okay. Help them connect to someone who can provide support. Help them connect to New Life. Help them connect to a counselor. Help them find a Life Recovery Group so that they can be around other people who can help them see their own value. Suicide prevention doesn’t always begin with having great words or the perfect words. Sometimes it’s just noticing that someone is struggling and being willing to stay. Dr. Alice Benton: I find that those who are suffering usually want to be asked and wish people would ask them. And you don’t have to be a therapist to ask. It’s okay if you don’t have all the answers. Because if your loved one says, “Yes, I want to hurt myself, I do want to die,” then it can be as simple as calling us at New Life. It can be as simple as calling the suicide prevention hotline, 988. I’ve called 988 in order to get a sense of what happens when someone calls. I found that the person who answered was well equipped, so kind, and very patient. They know what to do. We know what to do. All you have to do, if your loved one says they want to hurt themselves, is reach out for help from professionals, and we’ll walk you through what to do next. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: And I think sharing that also with our kids. I had a conversation with someone whose child came home and said their friend told them that they’d been wanting to hurt themselves, and the kid didn’t know what to do. So we were able to say, “Walk them to the nurse’s office, walk them to the principal’s office, walk them to an adult, and stay with them and have that conversation.” It’s a conversation my family also has from time to time, knowing that the increase in suicidal ideation is so strong today. Our kids need to be equipped. Dr. Alice Benton: They do. They’re out in the world, and people say mean things, and so we need to tell them that their life matters and that they can talk to us about anything. Brian Perez: Yep. We’ll be right back on New Life Live. Gigi, you’ll be our first call, so hang on. Resources Mentioned Brian Perez: Since we were just on the topic of suicide, I want to let you know about a couple of articles that we have available on our website, newlife.com. One of them is called “What to Do When Someone Is Suicidal.” It probably has the information that Jacqui just gave, maybe some extra stuff as well. So check that out at newlife.com. We also have a tip sheet. If you yourself have that suicidal thinking, it’s called “Eight Steps to Breaking Free from Suicidal Thinking.” We can send you that tip sheet when you call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Or, you know what, just order that tip sheet anyway. Have it handy just in case something happens and you wind up having a conversation with someone. Again, that one’s called “Eight Steps to Breaking Free from Suicidal Thinking.” Call us to get it. And if you’re watching on Facebook or YouTube, we’ll put that information in the show notes there. Caller: Gigi from Orlando, Florida Brian Perez: Let’s go to the phones now. Here is Gigi, who listens to us on newlife.com in Orlando, Florida. Hey there, Gigi. Welcome to New Life Live. Gigi: Thank you. Brian Perez: How can we help you today? Gigi: This topic is kind of multifaceted, but it comes down to things like boundaries. I’m an aunt watching my sister deal with my nephew and the havoc that he’s wreaking on my sister’s marriage, and it’s just hard to watch. He’s 21. We’re a Christian family. He was brought up to know the Lord, and he’s saying that he’s an atheist. And he’s so bitter against all of us, his parents. He’s using substances to drown his sorrows. And it could be worse — I don’t want it to be worse — but he’s had trouble controlling his emotions and anger and has put his hands on his mother more than once, but not recently. And she still is in denial. She’ll tell me one thing and then deny it the next, because it’s hard. She doesn’t want the family to be prejudiced against him. But it’s too late now. We don’t feel safe. And it’s just hard. Dr. Alice Benton: Can I pause you for a minute? She doesn’t want the family to be prejudiced against him — so she doesn’t want the family to react negatively to his behavior and kind of not want him around. Is that what you’re saying? Gigi: Yes, that’s correct. Dr. Alice Benton: And he doesn’t want to be around you guys either, right? Gigi: Yeah, he’s decided he’s atheist, and so, yes. Dr. Alice Benton: You said he put hands on his mother more than once. Were there any consequences for that? Gigi: Yes. The police came. He had to be bailed out of jail. They hired an attorney. It could have been worse. It was him struggling against the police that actually got him in trouble, and the fact that she had called because she was scared. So she blames herself for that, because he won’t let that go. He’s 21. This has happened over the course of a few years that he’s just drowned in sorrow and blaming. Dr. Alice Benton: And Gigi, he still lives with her. Is that right? Gigi: Yes. Dr. Alice Benton: And you said her husband — is her husband his father? Gigi: Oh yes, yes. Dr. Alice Benton: So is he that way with his father as well? Gigi: His father loves him, but he doesn’t have his son’s respect, and his son doesn’t trust his dad — and I think it’s both ways. I think my sister is his soul. She’s the person he’s latched onto for life. And with torture or love, he does something bad and then apologizes. Dr. Alice Benton: Gigi, you’re so right to be worried about her, because she loves him, but she’s also trying to protect him from the righteous consequences of his behavior, and it’s just a setup for him to repeat it. Tell us, do you know if he experienced a major loss or trauma that might have led to him being so embittered? Gigi: My sister would say that it is because they took him across country when he was in high school, because of a job for his dad. And while they were there, he was sad and lonely — first time in high school. A young lady broke his heart and said many awful things, and he has low self-image issues. But he’ll drag everything up. It’s amazing the memory we have when we are wanting to be bitter and resentful. He blame-shifts a lot onto them. Dr. Alice Benton: Blame-shifting is very — Gigi: Yes, I didn’t know that phrase. Dr. Alice Benton: And it’s understandable that he’s hurt by these things, but of course none of it justifies his substance use and his aggressive behavior towards his mom. And she is not willing to allow the consequences for him. But she does want you to be a listening ear, which puts you in a tough position, because you probably want to intervene and she won’t allow you to. Is that right? Gigi: Yes. It’s amazing how quickly our brains go from one thing to another. I will be wanting to encourage her, and then I have to stand up for logic, and then we pray together, and it’s so emotional all the time. I have other siblings, and they don’t want to hear it anymore, and it makes her feel so bad. And she can’t help but want to call us bad names. Dr. Alice Benton: Oh, she’s calling you all bad names. Gigi: Oh yes, yes, yes. Dr. Alice Benton: So she’s verbally abusive to you, even though you’re her listener? Gigi: Yes, because we are not living up to her needs and expectations. So the son might have gotten it honestly. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, I — Gigi: Yes, but I know my whole sister. You know what I mean? I know — Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: You know what you see when you’re with her? I’m going to stop you there, because we have a tendency to say we know, but oftentimes we are in relationship with people in our imaginations, not the reality of how they live their life every day, because we’re not there. So we think we know — “My sister would do this,” or “My sister’s this way or that way.” But look at her life and the life circumstance that she’s in. The sister you were about to describe, that you know, wouldn’t be living in this life circumstance. So she has a part of her that isn’t the her you guys know. It is also maybe not the parent you’ve always seen. Dr. Alice Benton: Dr. Jacqui was asking about any events that maybe had happened in his life. That move happened when he was in high school. He maybe felt like he had no say in it. They moved him. He lost friends. Loneliness. She is his person. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: “You’ve got your family. That’s enough. That’s all you need, right?” Well, if she is his person, I wonder what things had been like before he turned 21. What was it like when he was five? What were the responses when he was seven? What were the responses when he was 12? What happened when he got an F? What happened when he lost the game? Because if she’s willing to mistreat you all like that, it is so likely she responds to him in reactivity and anger, too. Dr. Alice Benton: And they’re back and forth in their reactivity, and then he’s now a man and he’s getting bigger, and so it’s starting to look different. And the family doesn’t enjoy being around him. Have you guys — when he was younger — did you enjoy being together as a family with your sister and her husband and your nephew? Gigi: Well, my sister saved him. He was always bailed out. He had two older sisters, so he was always saying, “I’ll have what she’s having,” and “Oh, she’s going to help me with my homework,” things like that. He was given a lot of leniency because he was the baby. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: The baby. Gigi: Yeah. If he just said “Mama” enough, he was going to get his way — or get a spanking. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: So would the spanking be from Mom? Gigi: Oh yeah. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: So he had a situation that might have been a little bit disorganized, and so he couldn’t tell if he’s going to get the wrath of Mom or the coddling of Mom. Gigi: That is true. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: What was childhood like for you and your sister? Gigi: Well, I just want to touch on something else. My sister was a great mother. I know exactly what she was going through. I saw it up front. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: No judgment. We all do the best we can with what we have. But what did you guys come out of? What did you see? How were you parented? Gigi: We had parents that were Christian. We all could have been better. But I can tell you, we had a sorrowful loss in 2007. My sister — she committed suicide. There’s too much to even go into, but the point is she was an angel. She loved Jesus, and she had some mental illness that — well, we failed her in fellowship, too. I feel like we did. My sister does not want another angel. Do you know what I mean? Dr. Alice Benton: Of course. So she might overprotect her son because she doesn’t want him to commit suicide. That completely makes sense. That is it. Dr. Alice Benton: So, Gigi, I think there are two things that you have in your power to do, because so much of this is outside of your ability to really control. You might consider a family intervention, because your nephew is the obvious problem, but you’re pointing out there is brokenness in the family — and there is in all of our families. A family interventionist, and we have a couple of great people that we can recommend, would be able to help decipher who most needs the intervention. The nephew looks like the obvious one, but he may not be the only one. An intervention brings to bear truth about how the chaotic behavior is affecting the family — that’s the way your sister abuses you, but it’s also the way the nephew abuses your sister. And it offers options for healing, but their response to that is out of your control, as you well know. And so if your sister continues to be abusive to you, you may have to start protecting yourself by limiting your exposure to her. She’s getting all this free therapy from you. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Oh, I wouldn’t call it therapy. Dr. Alice Benton: Well, you’re her good listening ear. But because you’re her main listener, I think she doesn’t know she needs more help, or she’s not willing or able to go get more professional help. And you need some of that responsibility taken off of your shoulders and transferred to a professional. I have the feeling your sister’s not real willing to get help. Gigi: Well, the good news on that end — all these months that I have been harping on “You need somebody to talk to, you need somebody to tell you how to talk it over with” — she’s got a therapist. Dr. Alice Benton: Terrific. God is good. So celebrating that is right to do. But you still can limit your exposure to her. So that may be, “I’ve got five minutes to listen to you. If you get mean, if you get loud, I will hang up.” Gigi: Oh wow. Dr. Alice Benton: Or, “I’m not willing to hear about this anymore. Please take this to your therapist.” Gigi, you said “Oh wow” twice. What has come up for you? Gigi: That just breaks my heart. Wow. Dr. Alice Benton: You want to find a way to fix it without her having to suffer the consequences. In the same way, she wants to find a way to fix it for her son without him having to face the consequences. She’s not going to grow without the consequence. If you continue to subject yourself to her behavior, you are doing exactly what she is doing with her son. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: How does that land, Gigi? Gigi: She’s been there for all of us every time we needed her. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Would she tell you wonderful things about her son? It’s the same cycle. Dr. Alice Benton: And Gigi, oddly enough, removing yourself to some distance — it loves her better than just being her listener, because it will force more discomfort, which makes it more likely that she’ll receive the help she’s getting from her therapist. Brian Perez: Gigi, thanks for calling us today here on New Life Live. We know we offered you a lot of suggestions, and go back and listen to the archive so that you can find out more. New Life President Becky Brown Joins the Program Brian Perez: We are back on New Life. Brian Perez here, along with doctors Jacqui Mack-Harris and Alice Benton. And look who’s joining us — it’s New Life President Becky Brown. Hey, Becky. Becky Brown: Hello. Surprise. My heart is hurting for Gigi and her family. So many times we hear the efforts that people are putting into trying to fix the problem. And I’m so grateful that we are here for her to reach out and talk to both you, Jacqui, and Alice, with that compassionate care and insightful truth that you gave her. And you gave her next steps. The only way we can do that is because people are generous and support New Life. They’ve been either part of our 99 for the One monthly donation, or they give big gifts, because out of the abundance that God has given them, they want to give back to make sure that the hope of a new life is there. I was thinking about “Every Man’s Battle,” and we hear so many testimonies. One in particular: Nick felt dead inside. Pornography, lust, and affairs gave him temporary relief, but the emptiness always returned. And while he tried different programs, he was stuck and began to lose hope. His wife gave him an ultimatum — and we hear that a lot here. She said, “You need to go to Every Man’s Battle.” He was hesitant, but he went, and he discovered what was fueling the addiction. He had a safe, shame-free zone and godly counselors who have been on this journey. They know what it’s like to be stuck and to find that freedom in Christ. New Life has had the privilege to walk alongside so many people for close to 40 years. And we couldn’t do it unless God was moving in the hearts of you, our donors and our listeners, to be part of what God is doing through New Life. So I just wanted to come on today and encourage you: if you have not supported us yet, today’s the day. And Brian, how can they give? Brian Perez: Oh, there’s several ways, Becky. They can go online to newlife.com. They can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. They can text NLM — as in New Life Ministries — to 28950. And yeah, if you want to make a big gift today, we are not going to say, “No, no, no, let’s break it up into two or three gifts.” No, no — we’ll take it, because we appreciate so much what you guys do, what the Lord lays on your heart to give toward New Life so that we can continue what we’re doing. And sometimes it’s people like our last caller, Becky, who are calling on behalf of someone else, because they see the turmoil that their family is going through, or a friend or a neighbor. They call because they’re like, “You know what, I trust you guys, you can help. Give me some tips to help my friend. Give me a tip sheet that I can give my friend, because there’s so much going on.” And there’s not too many places — I can’t even think of one — where somebody on a live program would pick up a phone call. We don’t know what you’re going to ask. We don’t know what the situation is. And we are ready to give you the next step, because we know that God is working through the ministry and through our incredible co-hosts. Becky Brown: We’ve been doing this a long time. We’ve been helping so many people, and you’re probably one of them, listener. You’ve been impacted. And so today’s the day. Thanks for letting me jump on, and let’s go back to the calls. Brian Perez: Anytime, Becky. Anytime. It’s so good to hear from Becky when she tells us these stories of listeners that she’s heard firsthand of how New Life Ministries has helped. And I remember recently, Alice, you were talking about how there were things you were going through — you didn’t even know New Life was around, and then you found New Life, and boom. Dr. Alice Benton: That’s right. Even though I grew up in the faith, and I went to college for psychology, I really hadn’t found a resource that combined those two things together. And that’s what New Life does very uniquely. It shows us how the two go hand in hand and are both necessary for our healing. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: I love that New Life exists, because I came up in a church where psychology was bad, and so the church would tell you not to see a therapist — all you need is the Bible, and your pastor. If your pastor doesn’t say it, then you shouldn’t hear it. And so it was a joy for me to find New Life and to find these professionals who have this wisdom, who are God-led, who come prayed up and ready to see what the Holy Spirit will use them to do. Over the years I’ve been able to have conversations with and meet so many people who love New Life, who call in and who listen regularly. It’s a gift to our community, and we really appreciate that people continue to give so that we can continue to serve. Dr. Alice Benton: And it’s not just about listening and receiving the wisdom, but about putting it into practice, especially with the New Life family that believes in these principles together, knows they’re broken, and wants to heal and is actively taking those steps. Because wisdom alone, information alone, is not enough. It needs to be practiced with other people. That’s that iron that sharpens iron. And I’ve never found better iron than at New Life. Brian Perez: Those formative years for me too were also, you know, no psychology — just whatever your pastor says, that’s all you need. Psychology was just man’s wisdom instead of God’s wisdom. Well, here at New Life, we combine these things, and we put God’s word first in front of everything that we do, because that’s what it’s all about. We’re not here to just tell you what we think — we search the scriptures and we give you godly advice, and we want to keep doing it. So if you can help us today, go to newlife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or text NLM to 28950. Thank you for your generosity. Email Question: Debbie Brian Perez: So we have several ways that you can ask your question. Our favorite way is when you call into the studio when we’re here taking calls, and you can find out more about that on our website, newlife.com/radio, which shows our recording schedule. It also gives you a phone number where you can leave a voicemail. And there’s also a form that you can fill out so that you can send us an email with your question. That is what Debbie did. Debbie asks, “How do I love and support my 22-year-old daughter without giving support to the lesbian lifestyle?” Debbie says her daughter is in a lesbian relationship. She’s never exhibited this tendency before. She’s not had any boyfriends, but she’s wanted one desperately. They’re Christian; she’s been raised in the church. She thinks God is okay with her lifestyle. “So how do I love and support her?” What do you guys say to Debbie? Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: I say love her and support her as the person. That’s hard, though, I think, for Debbie to be able to do, because Debbie’s not able to separate out her daughter’s relational activity from the person that she is. What I would wonder is: what has your relationship with her been like? What does love look like? What does it mean to love someone? I would go to scripture and look at what scripture says about love, and see if those are thoughts, tenets, behaviors, ways of being that you find in your relationship with your daughter. And then this is something I ask people regularly: how is that other person’s sex life affecting you? I think as Christians, we spend an enormous amount of time concerned about other people’s sexual health and sex life, and I just don’t see God being nearly as concerned about everybody else’s sex life as we are. I think we as Christians have made that a focal point, and we are doing a disservice. We are not introducing people to Jesus. We’re introducing people to rules and propriety, and Jesus came to set us free. Either we are free in Christ or we are not. And if I help someone know Jesus — I’ve introduced them to Jesus, I’ve walked through the Roman Road with them, they’ve accepted Christ and they know Jesus — the rest is not my business. I trust the Holy Spirit to do what he’s going to do. And if they end up in a homosexual relationship, drug-addicted, in a violent abusive relationship, anything — that is between them and God at that point. All God has called me to do is love God with all my heart, soul, and mind, and to love others as I love myself. So I think as Christians, we have to check ourselves. We are the ones falling out of line. I don’t have anything to do with your marriage — whether you are in a same-sex marriage or a gendered marriage, I have nothing to do with that. What God has called me to do is to help you know Jesus. And if I’ve done that, then I know I’ve done my work, and I trust the Holy Spirit to handle anything that God’s not pleased with. Dr. Alice Benton: Debbie, your question must have a lot of fear and pain to it, and I know I would feel similarly if I were in your shoes. We’re getting this question more and more frequently from other parents who wonder, “Why did my good Christian upbringing not seem to stick in this area of my child’s life?” — especially when your daughter sounds like she expressed a desire for a boyfriend for a long time. What a shock that she then introduces you to her girlfriend. I think you will not like some of the things that I have to say, because getting to know her partner is a way to love her and to love the partner. But I think that might not feel right to you to do. I think you can be a Christian influence in both of their lives more by your actions than by your words of opposition. There could be a tendency towards judgmentalism out of your fear — and I would have that same tendency in your shoes. And you might possibly be wondering, “Did I fail my daughter? What did I do wrong that this is a choice she has made?” So I want you to be really careful about judgmentalism coming out. I also think we are called to warn other believers when we see that there is sin behavior, or to warn those who are stumbling toward the edge. So I think it’s a parental obligation to say — once, with a whole lot of love and kindness and humility — “I am an imperfect parent, and I also need to point something out, because I love you so much. I am confused that you’re both a Christian and you’re choosing a homosexual relationship. What’s your understanding of what the Bible has to say about that? I really want to understand your perspective as a Christian.” Be more of a listener, Debbie, than a speaker. But once, it’s important to conclude with, “I disagree with you. I think this part of your relationship is out of alignment with God’s will, and I need to point that out because I love you and I don’t want you to have unnecessary suffering in your life. All the times I’ve been out of alignment with God’s will — my lying, my extramarital emotional affair, my excessive alcohol use — I was out of alignment with his will, and it brought suffering on me too. So I’m going to keep loving you, I’m going to keep praying for you, and I thank you that you heard this conversation from me.” That’s what I would have you share with your daughter. There’s a great book called Embodied by Preston Sprinkle. He’s a clinician who has specialized in this very thing: What do we do with both Christianity and same-sex desire, and how do we love well? And we do it a lot more with behavior than with words. Brian Perez: Isn’t loving and supporting the partner — Debbie was asking about her daughter, and you both gave great advice, but when we bring the partner into it, doesn’t it seem like we’re condoning the behavior? We’ve got the holidays coming up. People are going to probably start calling soon: “Do I invite them to Thanksgiving dinner? Do I invite them to our Christmas celebration?” Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, I think, like Alice said, this is an opportunity for your witness. And it honestly doesn’t matter if you agree with the lifestyle or not. You’ve said you don’t agree — so in that, you have said, “This isn’t something I think is okay. I love you, but I’m concerned for you. I’m concerned for how this will impact your life.” That is your “I don’t agree.” But we are called to love others. We’re called to love our enemies. We’re called to love our neighbors. We’re called to love ourselves. We’re called to love God. We are not called to not love anybody. Period. And we are not doing a great job of that as Christians. So I agree that is one way to show your daughter love and acceptance of her as a person. You don’t have to accept someone’s experience or their life in order to validate them as a person. And so when her friend comes over, you have boundaries in place regardless of whether your child is dating someone you approve of or not, right? Hopefully they respect your home and they respect your rules. But you get to set boundaries. And you’re right, the holidays are coming up, and this definitely is going to be a topic at many tables, because some families are estranged, because it is preferable to not have the other person around than to have that discomfort of, “Well, we disagree with this lifestyle.” But I agree with Dr. Alice. I think it can be a way that your Christian witness can go forward. We have people in our life who don’t believe how we believe, and whose actions and behaviors are not the same as our own, but they know us and love us, and we know them and we love them. Dr. Alice Benton: If I had no sinners at my table, I wouldn’t be allowed there either. And Jesus gave a pretty neat example of going to the parties that were full of sinners, because the sinners are the ones that need him. I’m the one that needs him. Brian Perez: Yep. Debbie, thanks for submitting your question at newlife.com/radio. We’ll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. We hope this program has helped you by giving you insights for handling the challenges you face in your life. We want you to know that we’re here for you, but you also need to know that New Life Live is a listener-supported ministry. To make your donation or to get any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. That’s 1-800-639-5433, or online at newlife.com. Please join us again tomorrow for New Life Live. If you or someone you know is struggling If you or someone you love is thinking about suicide or self-harm, you don’t have to face it alone. Call or text the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988, or reach out to New Life at 1-800-NEW-LIFE (1-800-639-5433).

Caller Questions & Discussion: Dr. Jacqui discusses what to do when someone you know is suicidal. My 21-year-old nephew is an atheist, uses substances to drown his sorrows, and has put his hands on his mother more than once. We lost a sibling to suicide, so that might be why my sister is overprotective. The hosts discuss why betrayed women are reluctant to get help for themselves. How do I love and support my 22-year-old daughter without supporting the lesbian lifestyle? My daughter is in a lesbian relationship, and we are Christians who want to love and support her while staying true to our beliefs. New Life Live — Program Transcript Air Date: September 10 Hosts: Brian Perez, Dr. Alice Benton (Clinical Psychologist), and Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist), with a visit from New Life President Becky Brown Welcome to New Life Live, the premier place to receive free advice from Christian psychologists and counselors for the mental, emotional, relational, and spiritual challenges you face. Since 1988, we’ve offered compassionate responses that combine God’s truth with proven psychological principles to guide you toward healing. Our phone lines are open. Call us now at 1-800-229-3000. Opening: A Conversation About Suicide Awareness Brian Perez: Hey, welcome to New Life Live. Thank you so much for joining us today. My name is Brian Perez. I’m here with clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris. Ladies, it is so good to be here with you today. Jacqui, what’s on your mind to start us off? Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, with it being Suicide Awareness Day, I have been thinking about how important suicide conversations are and how difficult they are. You know, sometimes we notice that somebody’s not themselves and maybe they’re withdrawing or talking about being too much of a burden, saying people would be better off without them. Maybe they’ve started to seem hopeless or wanting to get rid of things, and we start to worry about their safety. But then we become afraid ourselves, and in our fear we don’t ask the question. I’ve found amongst my friends and family and even clients that people are often surprised when I very directly say, “Are you thinking about ending your life? Are you thinking about suicide? Are you thinking about harming yourself? Are you thinking about harming someone else?” And it’s because we don’t want to make people feel bad. So out of our own fear, we don’t do the very thing someone needs. I have heard people say, “Well, I don’t want to cause them to do that,” or “I don’t want to put it on their mind if it’s not already on their mind.” But asking someone directly about suicide doesn’t put the idea in their head. It actually lets them know that you see them, you care about them, that they matter, and that you’re willing to hear what they have to say. And as Christians, sometimes I think we feel pressured to immediately give a scripture, or “I’ll pray for you,” or tell people, “God has a plan.” And yes, those things are true and they can be meaningful, but it’s often not the right answer. Often people just simply need you to be willing to stay. They need to know that they matter enough that even though they are in pain, and their pain hurts you, you will sit with them — that they do matter. So listen. Don’t judge. Don’t minimize their pain — “Oh, it’s fine, we all go through things like that,” or “That happened a long time ago, you should be over that by now.” Don’t try to fix everything in the moment. Sometimes people just need to sit in what hurts, and that is okay. Help them connect to someone who can provide support. Help them connect to New Life. Help them connect to a counselor. Help them find a Life Recovery Group so that they can be around other people who can help them see their own value. Suicide prevention doesn’t always begin with having great words or the perfect words. Sometimes it’s just noticing that someone is struggling and being willing to stay. Dr. Alice Benton: I find that those who are suffering usually want to be asked and wish people would ask them. And you don’t have to be a therapist to ask. It’s okay if you don’t have all the answers. Because if your loved one says, “Yes, I want to hurt myself, I do want to die,” then it can be as simple as calling us at New Life. It can be as simple as calling the suicide prevention hotline, 988. I’ve called 988 in order to get a sense of what happens when someone calls. I found that the person who answered was well equipped, so kind, and very patient. They know what to do. We know what to do. All you have to do, if your loved one says they want to hurt themselves, is reach out for help from professionals, and we’ll walk you through what to do next. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: And I think sharing that also with our kids. I had a conversation with someone whose child came home and said their friend told them that they’d been wanting to hurt themselves, and the kid didn’t know what to do. So we were able to say, “Walk them to the nurse’s office, walk them to the principal’s office, walk them to an adult, and stay with them and have that conversation.” It’s a conversation my family also has from time to time, knowing that the increase in suicidal ideation is so strong today. Our kids need to be equipped. Dr. Alice Benton: They do. They’re out in the world, and people say mean things, and so we need to tell them that their life matters and that they can talk to us about anything. Brian Perez: Yep. We’ll be right back on New Life Live. Gigi, you’ll be our first call, so hang on. Resources Mentioned Brian Perez: Since we were just on the topic of suicide, I want to let you know about a couple of articles that we have available on our website, newlife.com. One of them is called “What to Do When Someone Is Suicidal.” It probably has the information that Jacqui just gave, maybe some extra stuff as well. So check that out at newlife.com. We also have a tip sheet. If you yourself have that suicidal thinking, it’s called “Eight Steps to Breaking Free from Suicidal Thinking.” We can send you that tip sheet when you call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Or, you know what, just order that tip sheet anyway. Have it handy just in case something happens and you wind up having a conversation with someone. Again, that one’s called “Eight Steps to Breaking Free from Suicidal Thinking.” Call us to get it. And if you’re watching on Facebook or YouTube, we’ll put that information in the show notes there. Caller: Gigi from Orlando, Florida Brian Perez: Let’s go to the phones now. Here is Gigi, who listens to us on newlife.com in Orlando, Florida. Hey there, Gigi. Welcome to New Life Live. Gigi: Thank you. Brian Perez: How can we help you today? Gigi: This topic is kind of multifaceted, but it comes down to things like boundaries. I’m an aunt watching my sister deal with my nephew and the havoc that he’s wreaking on my sister’s marriage, and it’s just hard to watch. He’s 21. We’re a Christian family. He was brought up to know the Lord, and he’s saying that he’s an atheist. And he’s so bitter against all of us, his parents. He’s using substances to drown his sorrows. And it could be worse — I don’t want it to be worse — but he’s had trouble controlling his emotions and anger and has put his hands on his mother more than once, but not recently. And she still is in denial. She’ll tell me one thing and then deny it the next, because it’s hard. She doesn’t want the family to be prejudiced against him. But it’s too late now. We don’t feel safe. And it’s just hard. Dr. Alice Benton: Can I pause you for a minute? She doesn’t want the family to be prejudiced against him — so she doesn’t want the family to react negatively to his behavior and kind of not want him around. Is that what you’re saying? Gigi: Yes, that’s correct. Dr. Alice Benton: And he doesn’t want to be around you guys either, right? Gigi: Yeah, he’s decided he’s atheist, and so, yes. Dr. Alice Benton: You said he put hands on his mother more than once. Were there any consequences for that? Gigi: Yes. The police came. He had to be bailed out of jail. They hired an attorney. It could have been worse. It was him struggling against the police that actually got him in trouble, and the fact that she had called because she was scared. So she blames herself for that, because he won’t let that go. He’s 21. This has happened over the course of a few years that he’s just drowned in sorrow and blaming. Dr. Alice Benton: And Gigi, he still lives with her. Is that right? Gigi: Yes. Dr. Alice Benton: And you said her husband — is her husband his father? Gigi: Oh yes, yes. Dr. Alice Benton: So is he that way with his father as well? Gigi: His father loves him, but he doesn’t have his son’s respect, and his son doesn’t trust his dad — and I think it’s both ways. I think my sister is his soul. She’s the person he’s latched onto for life. And with torture or love, he does something bad and then apologizes. Dr. Alice Benton: Gigi, you’re so right to be worried about her, because she loves him, but she’s also trying to protect him from the righteous consequences of his behavior, and it’s just a setup for him to repeat it. Tell us, do you know if he experienced a major loss or trauma that might have led to him being so embittered? Gigi: My sister would say that it is because they took him across country when he was in high school, because of a job for his dad. And while they were there, he was sad and lonely — first time in high school. A young lady broke his heart and said many awful things, and he has low self-image issues. But he’ll drag everything up. It’s amazing the memory we have when we are wanting to be bitter and resentful. He blame-shifts a lot onto them. Dr. Alice Benton: Blame-shifting is very — Gigi: Yes, I didn’t know that phrase. Dr. Alice Benton: And it’s understandable that he’s hurt by these things, but of course none of it justifies his substance use and his aggressive behavior towards his mom. And she is not willing to allow the consequences for him. But she does want you to be a listening ear, which puts you in a tough position, because you probably want to intervene and she won’t allow you to. Is that right? Gigi: Yes. It’s amazing how quickly our brains go from one thing to another. I will be wanting to encourage her, and then I have to stand up for logic, and then we pray together, and it’s so emotional all the time. I have other siblings, and they don’t want to hear it anymore, and it makes her feel so bad. And she can’t help but want to call us bad names. Dr. Alice Benton: Oh, she’s calling you all bad names. Gigi: Oh yes, yes, yes. Dr. Alice Benton: So she’s verbally abusive to you, even though you’re her listener? Gigi: Yes, because we are not living up to her needs and expectations. So the son might have gotten it honestly. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, I — Gigi: Yes, but I know my whole sister. You know what I mean? I know — Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: You know what you see when you’re with her? I’m going to stop you there, because we have a tendency to say we know, but oftentimes we are in relationship with people in our imaginations, not the reality of how they live their life every day, because we’re not there. So we think we know — “My sister would do this,” or “My sister’s this way or that way.” But look at her life and the life circumstance that she’s in. The sister you were about to describe, that you know, wouldn’t be living in this life circumstance. So she has a part of her that isn’t the her you guys know. It is also maybe not the parent you’ve always seen. Dr. Alice Benton: Dr. Jacqui was asking about any events that maybe had happened in his life. That move happened when he was in high school. He maybe felt like he had no say in it. They moved him. He lost friends. Loneliness. She is his person. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: “You’ve got your family. That’s enough. That’s all you need, right?” Well, if she is his person, I wonder what things had been like before he turned 21. What was it like when he was five? What were the responses when he was seven? What were the responses when he was 12? What happened when he got an F? What happened when he lost the game? Because if she’s willing to mistreat you all like that, it is so likely she responds to him in reactivity and anger, too. Dr. Alice Benton: And they’re back and forth in their reactivity, and then he’s now a man and he’s getting bigger, and so it’s starting to look different. And the family doesn’t enjoy being around him. Have you guys — when he was younger — did you enjoy being together as a family with your sister and her husband and your nephew? Gigi: Well, my sister saved him. He was always bailed out. He had two older sisters, so he was always saying, “I’ll have what she’s having,” and “Oh, she’s going to help me with my homework,” things like that. He was given a lot of leniency because he was the baby. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: The baby. Gigi: Yeah. If he just said “Mama” enough, he was going to get his way — or get a spanking. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: So would the spanking be from Mom? Gigi: Oh yeah. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: So he had a situation that might have been a little bit disorganized, and so he couldn’t tell if he’s going to get the wrath of Mom or the coddling of Mom. Gigi: That is true. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: What was childhood like for you and your sister? Gigi: Well, I just want to touch on something else. My sister was a great mother. I know exactly what she was going through. I saw it up front. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: No judgment. We all do the best we can with what we have. But what did you guys come out of? What did you see? How were you parented? Gigi: We had parents that were Christian. We all could have been better. But I can tell you, we had a sorrowful loss in 2007. My sister — she committed suicide. There’s too much to even go into, but the point is she was an angel. She loved Jesus, and she had some mental illness that — well, we failed her in fellowship, too. I feel like we did. My sister does not want another angel. Do you know what I mean? Dr. Alice Benton: Of course. So she might overprotect her son because she doesn’t want him to commit suicide. That completely makes sense. That is it. Dr. Alice Benton: So, Gigi, I think there are two things that you have in your power to do, because so much of this is outside of your ability to really control. You might consider a family intervention, because your nephew is the obvious problem, but you’re pointing out there is brokenness in the family — and there is in all of our families. A family interventionist, and we have a couple of great people that we can recommend, would be able to help decipher who most needs the intervention. The nephew looks like the obvious one, but he may not be the only one. An intervention brings to bear truth about how the chaotic behavior is affecting the family — that’s the way your sister abuses you, but it’s also the way the nephew abuses your sister. And it offers options for healing, but their response to that is out of your control, as you well know. And so if your sister continues to be abusive to you, you may have to start protecting yourself by limiting your exposure to her. She’s getting all this free therapy from you. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Oh, I wouldn’t call it therapy. Dr. Alice Benton: Well, you’re her good listening ear. But because you’re her main listener, I think she doesn’t know she needs more help, or she’s not willing or able to go get more professional help. And you need some of that responsibility taken off of your shoulders and transferred to a professional. I have the feeling your sister’s not real willing to get help. Gigi: Well, the good news on that end — all these months that I have been harping on “You need somebody to talk to, you need somebody to tell you how to talk it over with” — she’s got a therapist. Dr. Alice Benton: Terrific. God is good. So celebrating that is right to do. But you still can limit your exposure to her. So that may be, “I’ve got five minutes to listen to you. If you get mean, if you get loud, I will hang up.” Gigi: Oh wow. Dr. Alice Benton: Or, “I’m not willing to hear about this anymore. Please take this to your therapist.” Gigi, you said “Oh wow” twice. What has come up for you? Gigi: That just breaks my heart. Wow. Dr. Alice Benton: You want to find a way to fix it without her having to suffer the consequences. In the same way, she wants to find a way to fix it for her son without him having to face the consequences. She’s not going to grow without the consequence. If you continue to subject yourself to her behavior, you are doing exactly what she is doing with her son. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: How does that land, Gigi? Gigi: She’s been there for all of us every time we needed her. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Would she tell you wonderful things about her son? It’s the same cycle. Dr. Alice Benton: And Gigi, oddly enough, removing yourself to some distance — it loves her better than just being her listener, because it will force more discomfort, which makes it more likely that she’ll receive the help she’s getting from her therapist. Brian Perez: Gigi, thanks for calling us today here on New Life Live. We know we offered you a lot of suggestions, and go back and listen to the archive so that you can find out more. New Life President Becky Brown Joins the Program Brian Perez: We are back on New Life. Brian Perez here, along with doctors Jacqui Mack-Harris and Alice Benton. And look who’s joining us — it’s New Life President Becky Brown. Hey, Becky. Becky Brown: Hello. Surprise. My heart is hurting for Gigi and her family. So many times we hear the efforts that people are putting into trying to fix the problem. And I’m so grateful that we are here for her to reach out and talk to both you, Jacqui, and Alice, with that compassionate care and insightful truth that you gave her. And you gave her next steps. The only way we can do that is because people are generous and support New Life. They’ve been either part of our 99 for the One monthly donation, or they give big gifts, because out of the abundance that God has given them, they want to give back to make sure that the hope of a new life is there. I was thinking about “Every Man’s Battle,” and we hear so many testimonies. One in particular: Nick felt dead inside. Pornography, lust, and affairs gave him temporary relief, but the emptiness always returned. And while he tried different programs, he was stuck and began to lose hope. His wife gave him an ultimatum — and we hear that a lot here. She said, “You need to go to Every Man’s Battle.” He was hesitant, but he went, and he discovered what was fueling the addiction. He had a safe, shame-free zone and godly counselors who have been on this journey. They know what it’s like to be stuck and to find that freedom in Christ. New Life has had the privilege to walk alongside so many people for close to 40 years. And we couldn’t do it unless God was moving in the hearts of you, our donors and our listeners, to be part of what God is doing through New Life. So I just wanted to come on today and encourage you: if you have not supported us yet, today’s the day. And Brian, how can they give? Brian Perez: Oh, there’s several ways, Becky. They can go online to newlife.com. They can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. They can text NLM — as in New Life Ministries — to 28950. And yeah, if you want to make a big gift today, we are not going to say, “No, no, no, let’s break it up into two or three gifts.” No, no — we’ll take it, because we appreciate so much what you guys do, what the Lord lays on your heart to give toward New Life so that we can continue what we’re doing. And sometimes it’s people like our last caller, Becky, who are calling on behalf of someone else, because they see the turmoil that their family is going through, or a friend or a neighbor. They call because they’re like, “You know what, I trust you guys, you can help. Give me some tips to help my friend. Give me a tip sheet that I can give my friend, because there’s so much going on.” And there’s not too many places — I can’t even think of one — where somebody on a live program would pick up a phone call. We don’t know what you’re going to ask. We don’t know what the situation is. And we are ready to give you the next step, because we know that God is working through the ministry and through our incredible co-hosts. Becky Brown: We’ve been doing this a long time. We’ve been helping so many people, and you’re probably one of them, listener. You’ve been impacted. And so today’s the day. Thanks for letting me jump on, and let’s go back to the calls. Brian Perez: Anytime, Becky. Anytime. It’s so good to hear from Becky when she tells us these stories of listeners that she’s heard firsthand of how New Life Ministries has helped. And I remember recently, Alice, you were talking about how there were things you were going through — you didn’t even know New Life was around, and then you found New Life, and boom. Dr. Alice Benton: That’s right. Even though I grew up in the faith, and I went to college for psychology, I really hadn’t found a resource that combined those two things together. And that’s what New Life does very uniquely. It shows us how the two go hand in hand and are both necessary for our healing. Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: I love that New Life exists, because I came up in a church where psychology was bad, and so the church would tell you not to see a therapist — all you need is the Bible, and your pastor. If your pastor doesn’t say it, then you shouldn’t hear it. And so it was a joy for me to find New Life and to find these professionals who have this wisdom, who are God-led, who come prayed up and ready to see what the Holy Spirit will use them to do. Over the years I’ve been able to have conversations with and meet so many people who love New Life, who call in and who listen regularly. It’s a gift to our community, and we really appreciate that people continue to give so that we can continue to serve. Dr. Alice Benton: And it’s not just about listening and receiving the wisdom, but about putting it into practice, especially with the New Life family that believes in these principles together, knows they’re broken, and wants to heal and is actively taking those steps. Because wisdom alone, information alone, is not enough. It needs to be practiced with other people. That’s that iron that sharpens iron. And I’ve never found better iron than at New Life. Brian Perez: Those formative years for me too were also, you know, no psychology — just whatever your pastor says, that’s all you need. Psychology was just man’s wisdom instead of God’s wisdom. Well, here at New Life, we combine these things, and we put God’s word first in front of everything that we do, because that’s what it’s all about. We’re not here to just tell you what we think — we search the scriptures and we give you godly advice, and we want to keep doing it. So if you can help us today, go to newlife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or text NLM to 28950. Thank you for your generosity. Email Question: Debbie Brian Perez: So we have several ways that you can ask your question. Our favorite way is when you call into the studio when we’re here taking calls, and you can find out more about that on our website, newlife.com/radio, which shows our recording schedule. It also gives you a phone number where you can leave a voicemail. And there’s also a form that you can fill out so that you can send us an email with your question. That is what Debbie did. Debbie asks, “How do I love and support my 22-year-old daughter without giving support to the lesbian lifestyle?” Debbie says her daughter is in a lesbian relationship. She’s never exhibited this tendency before. She’s not had any boyfriends, but she’s wanted one desperately. They’re Christian; she’s been raised in the church. She thinks God is okay with her lifestyle. “So how do I love and support her?” What do you guys say to Debbie? Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: I say love her and support her as the person. That’s hard, though, I think, for Debbie to be able to do, because Debbie’s not able to separate out her daughter’s relational activity from the person that she is. What I would wonder is: what has your relationship with her been like? What does love look like? What does it mean to love someone? I would go to scripture and look at what scripture says about love, and see if those are thoughts, tenets, behaviors, ways of being that you find in your relationship with your daughter. And then this is something I ask people regularly: how is that other person’s sex life affecting you? I think as Christians, we spend an enormous amount of time concerned about other people’s sexual health and sex life, and I just don’t see God being nearly as concerned about everybody else’s sex life as we are. I think we as Christians have made that a focal point, and we are doing a disservice. We are not introducing people to Jesus. We’re introducing people to rules and propriety, and Jesus came to set us free. Either we are free in Christ or we are not. And if I help someone know Jesus — I’ve introduced them to Jesus, I’ve walked through the Roman Road with them, they’ve accepted Christ and they know Jesus — the rest is not my business. I trust the Holy Spirit to do what he’s going to do. And if they end up in a homosexual relationship, drug-addicted, in a violent abusive relationship, anything — that is between them and God at that point. All God has called me to do is love God with all my heart, soul, and mind, and to love others as I love myself. So I think as Christians, we have to check ourselves. We are the ones falling out of line. I don’t have anything to do with your marriage — whether you are in a same-sex marriage or a gendered marriage, I have nothing to do with that. What God has called me to do is to help you know Jesus. And if I’ve done that, then I know I’ve done my work, and I trust the Holy Spirit to handle anything that God’s not pleased with. Dr. Alice Benton: Debbie, your question must have a lot of fear and pain to it, and I know I would feel similarly if I were in your shoes. We’re getting this question more and more frequently from other parents who wonder, “Why did my good Christian upbringing not seem to stick in this area of my child’s life?” — especially when your daughter sounds like she expressed a desire for a boyfriend for a long time. What a shock that she then introduces you to her girlfriend. I think you will not like some of the things that I have to say, because getting to know her partner is a way to love her and to love the partner. But I think that might not feel right to you to do. I think you can be a Christian influence in both of their lives more by your actions than by your words of opposition. There could be a tendency towards judgmentalism out of your fear — and I would have that same tendency in your shoes. And you might possibly be wondering, “Did I fail my daughter? What did I do wrong that this is a choice she has made?” So I want you to be really careful about judgmentalism coming out. I also think we are called to warn other believers when we see that there is sin behavior, or to warn those who are stumbling toward the edge. So I think it’s a parental obligation to say — once, with a whole lot of love and kindness and humility — “I am an imperfect parent, and I also need to point something out, because I love you so much. I am confused that you’re both a Christian and you’re choosing a homosexual relationship. What’s your understanding of what the Bible has to say about that? I really want to understand your perspective as a Christian.” Be more of a listener, Debbie, than a speaker. But once, it’s important to conclude with, “I disagree with you. I think this part of your relationship is out of alignment with God’s will, and I need to point that out because I love you and I don’t want you to have unnecessary suffering in your life. All the times I’ve been out of alignment with God’s will — my lying, my extramarital emotional affair, my excessive alcohol use — I was out of alignment with his will, and it brought suffering on me too. So I’m going to keep loving you, I’m going to keep praying for you, and I thank you that you heard this conversation from me.” That’s what I would have you share with your daughter. There’s a great book called Embodied by Preston Sprinkle. He’s a clinician who has specialized in this very thing: What do we do with both Christianity and same-sex desire, and how do we love well? And we do it a lot more with behavior than with words. Brian Perez: Isn’t loving and supporting the partner — Debbie was asking about her daughter, and you both gave great advice, but when we bring the partner into it, doesn’t it seem like we’re condoning the behavior? We’ve got the holidays coming up. People are going to probably start calling soon: “Do I invite them to Thanksgiving dinner? Do I invite them to our Christmas celebration?” Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, I think, like Alice said, this is an opportunity for your witness. And it honestly doesn’t matter if you agree with the lifestyle or not. You’ve said you don’t agree — so in that, you have said, “This isn’t something I think is okay. I love you, but I’m concerned for you. I’m concerned for how this will impact your life.” That is your “I don’t agree.” But we are called to love others. We’re called to love our enemies. We’re called to love our neighbors. We’re called to love ourselves. We’re called to love God. We are not called to not love anybody. Period. And we are not doing a great job of that as Christians. So I agree that is one way to show your daughter love and acceptance of her as a person. You don’t have to accept someone’s experience or their life in order to validate them as a person. And so when her friend comes over, you have boundaries in place regardless of whether your child is dating someone you approve of or not, right? Hopefully they respect your home and they respect your rules. But you get to set boundaries. And you’re right, the holidays are coming up, and this definitely is going to be a topic at many tables, because some families are estranged, because it is preferable to not have the other person around than to have that discomfort of, “Well, we disagree with this lifestyle.” But I agree with Dr. Alice. I think it can be a way that your Christian witness can go forward. We have people in our life who don’t believe how we believe, and whose actions and behaviors are not the same as our own, but they know us and love us, and we know them and we love them. Dr. Alice Benton: If I had no sinners at my table, I wouldn’t be allowed there either. And Jesus gave a pretty neat example of going to the parties that were full of sinners, because the sinners are the ones that need him. I’m the one that needs him. Brian Perez: Yep. Debbie, thanks for submitting your question at newlife.com/radio. We’ll talk to you next time. Thanks for listening. We hope this program has helped you by giving you insights for handling the challenges you face in your life. We want you to know that we’re here for you, but you also need to know that New Life Live is a listener-supported ministry. To make your donation or to get any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. That’s 1-800-639-5433, or online at newlife.com. Please join us again tomorrow for New Life Live. If you or someone you know is struggling If you or someone you love is thinking about suicide or self-harm, you don’t have to face it alone. Call or text the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988, or reach out to New Life at 1-800-NEW-LIFE (1-800-639-5433).

This episode features a RENEW.org Review of ‘Does the Bible Support Same-Sex Marriage?' by Preston Sprinkle. For more information view this article by John Whittaker: https://renew.org/review-of-does-the-bible-support-same-sex-marriage-by-preston-sprinkle/    Download the free RENEW.org App - https://renew.org/renew-app/  Visit RENEW: https://renew.org/   Check out the following from RENEW.org: Events: https://renew.org/resources/events/ Videos: https://renew.org/media/videos/ Podcasts: https://renew.org/media/podcasts/ Articles: https://renew.org/articles/ Free eBooks: https://renew.org/resources/free-ebooks/ Books: https://renew.org/resources/books/ Audiobooks: https://renew.org/resources/audiobooks/ Sermon Tools: https://renew.org/resources/sermon-tools/ Job Board: https://jobs.renew.org/ Renew University: https://renewuniversity.org/ Real Life Theology Conversations: https://renew.org/rltc/ Sign up for our newsletter: https://renew.org/resources/newsletter-sign-up/

This episode features a RENEW.org Review of Preston Sprinkle's ‘From Genesis to Junia'. For more information view this article by John Whittaker: https://renew.org/review-from-genesis-to-junia/    Download the free RENEW.org App - https://renew.org/renew-app/  Visit RENEW: https://renew.org/   Check out the following from RENEW.org: Events: https://renew.org/resources/events/ Videos: https://renew.org/media/videos/ Podcasts: https://renew.org/media/podcasts/ Articles: https://renew.org/articles/ Free eBooks: https://renew.org/resources/free-ebooks/ Books: https://renew.org/resources/books/ Audiobooks: https://renew.org/resources/audiobooks/ Sermon Tools: https://renew.org/resources/sermon-tools/ Job Board: https://jobs.renew.org/ Renew University: https://renewuniversity.org/ Real Life Theology Conversations: https://renew.org/rltc/ Sign up for our newsletter: https://renew.org/resources/newsletter-sign-up/

On today's episode of Back Porch Theology, Lisa is joined by theologian and author Dr. Preston Sprinkle for a deep dive into Romans 16 and the remarkable stories of three women who played significant roles in the early church: Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia. Together, they unpack the leadership, influence, and ministry of these women and explore what their stories reveal about women's roles in the early church and the spread of the Gospel. So grab a cup of coffee, pull up a chair, and join us on the back porch! SCRIPTURE REFERENCES Romans 16:1-7 Romans 8 Acts 2 Romans 15 Romans 9-11 Romans 14-15 Romans 1 Romans 2 John 13 Matthew 22 Mark 10 Philippians 2 Romans 16:23 Acts 18:25-26 Romans 16:7 1 Chronicles 22:8 Romans 8:1

Is hell a divine torture chamber? Dr. Paul Copan says no, and he's the one defending the traditional view. In Part 2 of our Hell Debate series, the Palm Beach Atlantic University philosopher and co-editor of the forthcoming Concerning Hell makes the biblical case for eternal conscious punishment while giving annihilationism the fairest hearing you'll find anywhere. Fresh off Kirk Cameron's viral Hellgate roundtable, Copan and Joshua work through the texts, the caricatures, and the question underneath it all: who is the God doing the judging?ABOUT THE EPISODE:When people think of hell, images of the devil tormenting souls with a pitchfork and eternal fire come to mind. Dr. Paul Copan defends the traditional view of hell, but he wants that picture gone. So if that's not hell, what is? And if the popular image is a caricature, what exactly has the church been arguing about?Copan isn't watching this debate from the cheap seats. He was at the table for Kirk Cameron's Hellgate roundtable, the conversation that lit up half the Christian internet. He co-edited the forthcoming book Concerning Hell (IVP Academic) with Chris Date, the very annihilationist who made the opposing case in Part 1 of this series. Friends on opposite sides, writing the book together. Now he sits down with Joshua for the conversation Hellgate didn't have time for.And the texts get harder the closer you look. Jesus calls the prodigal son "lost" with the same destruction language annihilationists build their case on, yet the son walks home alive. Smoke rises forever in Revelation 14:10-11 from something that supposedly no longer exists. Matthew 25:46 puts eternal punishment and eternal life in the same breath, and both sides claim that verse as their own. Copan walks through each one, and along the way he admits something scholars rarely admit on camera: a text he used to read wrong, and what changed his mind about 2 Thessalonians 1:9.Then Joshua asks the question this whole debate keeps circling: at what point does our picture of hell describe a different God altogether? Watch Part 1: https://youtu.be/sVOQfKMB6RI0:00 Introduction1:09 Dr. Paul Copan Introduction3:08 Eternal Punishment vs Annihilationism8:53 Kirk Cameron Hellgate Discussion13:50 Early Church Fathers17:55 Matthew 25 Eternal Punishment29:17 Destruction Language: Matthew 1038:05 2 Thessalonians: God's Presence41:04 Revelation 14: Apocalyptic Imagery52:04 Worshiping a Different God?1:03:48 Universalism and Orthodoxy1:11:41 Closing ThoughtsABOUT THE GUEST: - Concerning Hell: The Doctrine in Theological, Philosophical, Historical, and Biblical Dialogue (ed. Paul Copan & Christopher M. Date, IVP Academic, available for pre-order): https://www.ivpress.com/concerning-hell- Dr. Paul Copan's website: https://www.paulcopan.comRESOURCES MENTIONED:- The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Divorce-C-S-Lewis/dp/0061774197- Erasing Hell by Francis Chan & Preston Sprinkle: https://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Hell-About-Eternity-Things/dp/0781407257Join Joshua Lewis, Michael Miller & Michael Rowntree for RemCon "Prophecy & Hearing God's Voice" October 1-3 | Houston, TXLearn more & register: https://www.theremnantradio.com/remnant-fall-conference-2026 Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.Support the showABOUT THE REMNANT RADIO: The Remnant Radio exists to equip believers who are hungry for the radical middle of both Word and Spirit. Subscribe for twice-weekly content on theology, church history and the gifts of the Spirit.

Christians love their neighbors as themselves. One way is by respecting bodies and commitments, seen in the Christian covenant of purity, fidelity, and monogamy. Join us as we consider the fourth of 5 defining characteristics of the early church that made them distinct and definable.The sermon today is titled "Honoring Our Union." This sermon is the fourth installment in our sub-series "How Will They Know Us" and the twelfth in our larger series "First Things First." The Scripture reading is from John 13:35 (ESV). Originally preached at the West Side Church of Christ (Searcy, AR) on July 19, 2026. All lessons fit under 6 broad categories: Begin, Instill, Discover, Grow, Learn, and Serve. This sermon is filed under LEARN: Introduction to Theology.Click here if you would like to watch the sermon or read a transcript.Podcast Notes (resources used or referenced):Mary Harrington, “Normophobia,” First Things (April 2024). Suetonius, Life of Nero, 26-31. Maggie Gallagher, “Why Marriage Is Good For You,” City Journal (Autumn 2000). Wesley Hill, Washed & Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness & Homosexuality (Zondervan, 2010).Luke Timothy Johnson, "Homosexuality and the Church: Scripture & Experience," Commonweal, June 11, 2007.Preston Sprinkle, Living in a Gray World: A Christian Teen's Guide to Understanding Homosexuality (Zondervan, 2015).Preston Sprinkle, Embodied: Transgender Identities, the Church & What the Bible Has To Say (David C Cook, 2021).Keith D. Stanglin, “Christian Moral Reasoning and the Question of Homosexual Practice,” Journal of Christian Studies 1/2: “Sexuality and Marriage” (May 2022): 65-80.Louise Perry, "We Are Repaganizing," First Things, Oct 1, 2023.I'd love to connect with you!Watch sermons and find transcripts at nathanguy.com.Follow along each Sunday through YouTube livestream and find a study guide on the sermon notes page.Follow me @nathanpguy (facebook/instagram/twitter)Subscribe to my email newsletter on substack.

Prophets, Shepherds, Poets and Kings is a series delving into the history of the people of God found in 1 and 2 Samuel. We continue our deep dive into the history of the people of God in 1 and 2 Samuel. We began with a longed for baby, continued with a cry for a king which was fulfilled in the anointing of Saul. He began well but things went downhill with a series of catastrophic failures that led to God rejecting him as king. We then met a young shepherd boy called David, a keen harpist, giant slayer, good friend and, as we discovered last time, cave dweller. In this episode we learn about what happened next in this series which we're calling this Prophets, Shepherds, Poets and Kings. The story continues in 1 Samuel 25-27. with discussion of leadership, influence, misogyny and more ambushes. There are segments to enjoy including the reading of the passage, 'The Cloud' and 'What Now?'. This episode was engineered and edited by Aimee Higgins. ------- Show Notes The Outspoken Bible is hosted by Fiona Stewart with Neil Glover and Jen Robertson. All opinions are those of the individual contributors and don't necessarily reflect the view of the Scottish Bible Society as an organisation.  ------- 1 Samuel for You Tim Chester 1 Samuel: Looking on the Heart Dale Ralph Davis https://bibleproject.com/videos/1-samuel/ Trauma Healing The Rabbit Listened Corey Doerrfeld London City Mission  Glasgow City Mission The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry (John Mark Comer) When Courage Calls: Josephine Butler and the Radical Pursuit of Justice for Women (Sarah C Williams) From Genesis to Junia (Preston Sprinkle) Theodisc podcast discussion between Preston Sprinkle and Beth Allison Barr  ------- Get in touch here or by emailing outspoken@scottishbiblesociety.org. ------- In our next episode, we continue the story in 1 Samuel 28.

On Non-Violence: Interview with Preston Sprinkle

David Richir-Haldemann, professeur de Nouveau Testament à la HET-PRO Emmaüs, aborde ce mois-ci avec nous un sujet complexe et sensible : la transidentité et l'accompagnement des jeunes qui se questionnent sur leur identité.À partir du livre Être corps : les identités transgenres, l'Église et ce que la Bible en dit de Preston Sprinkle, publié aux éditions HET-PRO, cet échange propose des repères pour mieux comprendre le vocabulaire, les réalités vécues et les enjeux pastoraux liés à la transidentité.Nous vous invitons à écouter cet épisode, un peu plus dense que d'habitude, qui aborde la dysphorie de genre, la souffrance, les réseaux sociaux, le besoin d'appartenance, mais aussi la manière dont l'Église peut accueillir, écouter et accompagner les jeunes touchés par ces questions.

Seminary Update and Book Reviews: Women in Leadership, Political Exile, and Healing or Harm from Misused Scripture Diana shares an update on her seminary studies toward a Master of Divinity to become a hospital chaplain. She explains why she has not republished older episodes and then recommends three books: Preston Sprinkle's From Genesis to Junia, which she is midway through and says is readable yet scholarly on what the Bible says about women in leadership, highlighting many biblical women and themes of servant leadership; Sprinkle's Exiles, on Christians' identity as foreigners whose allegiance is to King Jesus rather than partisan politics; and Dr. Steven Tracy's To Heal Or Harm, focused on how misused scripture can wound abuse survivors and how to apply the Bible redemptively.  00:00 Podcast Welcome 00:33 Life Update and School 06:09 Colorado Conference Plug 07:12 Making Time to Read 08:26 Book Review Genesis to Junia 12:18 Women Leaders in Scripture 22:49 Book Review Exiles 28:04 Book Review To Heal Or Harm 34:22 Mending the Soul Mission 36:43 Wrap Up and Resources 38:57 Closing and Subscribe

Text us your questions!We talk with Preston Sprinkle about his book From Genesis to Junia and the long road from a John MacArthur shaped complementarian framework to an egalitarian view that affirms women teaching, preaching, and leading in the church.We dig into the passages that always show up in this debate (especially 1 Timothy 2, along with Paul's wider world), but we keep pulling the camera back to ask harder questions about biblical interpretation and hermeneutics. Is the Bible a blank slate on gender roles, or does it carry the fingerprints of patriarchal ancient contexts even while pushing against them? What do we do with the fact that sincere Christians read the same Greek and Hebrew texts differently, and that those conclusions affect real people's lives and callings?Then we press into methodology and authority. Preston lays out why he treats Scripture as the ultimate authority for Christian theology, and Kyle challenges what that claim means when canon, interpretation, and experience are always in the mix. Randy brings the pastoral angle, asking how we deal with morally troubling texts and why “the Bible says it” is rarely the whole story. We also touch the “slippery slope” fear that egalitarianism automatically leads to affirming views on sexuality and why Preston thinks that framing misses the mark.If you're just done with engaging with conservative, Bible-based approaches to these kinds of questions, we get it. But if you care how folks with a voice in that world are talking about women pastors, egalitarianism vs complementarianism, biblical authority, deconstruction, or church power, this one will interest you.=====Want to support us?The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.Other important info:Rate & review us on Apple & SpotifyFollow us on social media at @PPWBPodcastWatch & comment on YouTubeEmail us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.comCheers!

We're kicking off a brand new summer season of the So Good Sisterhood Podcast with one of our favorite kinds of episodes: a real and honest Q+A with Pastor Julie and Pastor Karissa!

It's Monday, May 11th, A.D. 2026. This is The Worldview in 5 Minutes heard on 140 radio stations and at www.TheWorldview.com.  I'm Adam McManus. (Adam@TheWorldview.com) By Adam McManus Nigeria's $10 million genocide cover-up A disturbing new report from International Christian Concern highlights how Nigeria's government is weaponizing misinformation to hide a decades-long campaign of violence against Christians. Written by ICC Fellow Justin Joseph, “Nigeria's $10 Million Genocide Cover-Up” reveals how power, politics, and propaganda are fueling a human catastrophe. Since 2009, at least 190,150 Nigerians — 128,750 of whom were Christians — have been murdered in ethno-religious killings, with the slaughter escalating in 2026. Yet, instead of addressing the crisis, officials are spinning a dangerous narrative. During meetings with other heads of state, Nigerian President Bola Tinubu claims the terrorism plaguing his nation stems solely from climate change and regional instability. Researchers have repeatedly debunked this reasoning, pointing to the targeting of Christian communities. Tinubu's administration has launched a $10 million lobbying front to silence human rights accountability in the U.S. and whitewash the genocide of Nigerian Christians. Prosperity gospel champion Joni Lamb died Joni Lamb, a Prosperity Gospel enthusiast and co-founder of the Daystar Television Network, died on May 7th at the age of 65, reports Christian Daily. Lamb had been privately battling serious health issues before suffering a recent back injury that significantly worsened her condition in recent days. Founded in 1993 alongside her late husband, Marcus Lamb, Daystar Television grew from a small Christian television station into one of the world's largest Christian broadcasting networks, with 100 stations worldwide, employing 300 staff, and bringing in $100 million annually. On December 1, 2010, Marcus Lamb confessed on Daystar Television to having had an affair which Joni initially described, reported ABC News. JONI LAMB: “Several years ago, Marcus and I went through a challenge in our marriage. I discovered that he was having an emotional relationship, if you will, with someone. It had turned into an improper relationship.” MARCUS LAMB: “I take 100% responsibility. Joni has no blame. The other person doesn't have any blame. It's all --- I don't even blame the devil. It's all on me. ”I'm so sorry. I've asked God to forgive me. Years ago, I asked my precious Joni. And when with this first came out, I said to her, I said, ‘Honey, I only want us to stay together if we really love one another, not for the ministry's sake, not even for our kids' sake. Ladies and gentlemen, I love this woman.” The reason they announced this affair is because they were being threatened with blackmail. JONI LAMB: “There actually are three people who were not involved in what we're talking about today or affected by our marital challenge. They're now saying, that unless Daystar pays them $7.5 million, that they're going to take our story, that we just shared with you, to the media.” MARCUS LAMB: “You see these three people, that Joni shared with you, they're trying to take our pain and turn it to their gain. Ladies and gentlemen, we're not going to take God's money and pay to keep from being, uh, humiliated, I guess, or exposed or exploited, whatever you want to call it.” Subsequently, Marcus died at the age of 64 on November 30, 2021 after contracting COVID-19. According to MinistryWatch, in 2020, the ministry used a $3.9 million Paycheck Protection Program loan, offered to pay the salaries of employees, to buy a private airplane, which the family used for vacations, reported Inside Edition. That loan was reportedly paid back after Inside Edition began asking questions about it. Over the years, Joni Lamb became one of the most recognizable faces in Christian media.  Unfortunately, Daystar frequently featured prosperity-oriented themes such as: financial blessing tied to faith and giving, “seed faith” donations, and testimonies of material and personal success through faith. Joni and her late husband Marcus Lamb regularly hosted ministers connected to the Prosperity Gospel movement, including: Creflo Dollar Jesse Duplantis Paula White and Benny Hinn James 3:1 says, “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” And, in another controversy involving Daystar Television, Joni's son, Jonathan, claimed that his mother covered up the sexual abuse of his 5-year-old daughter by a relative, according to the Roys Report. While Jonathan had been Daystar Television's vice president, he was demoted to a manager position for refusing to sign a non-disclosure agreement.  On May 8th, The Economic Times reported that Joni's daughter-in-law, Suzy, who is married to Jonathan, stated online, “We weren't informed of anything,” claiming relatives knew Joni Lamb was dying the night before her death but “didn't call Jonathan to come say goodbye.” Joni Lamb is survived by her second husband, Doug Weiss, and her three children — Jonathan, Rachel, and Rebecca. Pastor Sam Allberry resigns after “inappropriate” relationship with man And finally, a Tennessee pastor and advocate for Christians who suffer from so-called “same-sex attraction” has stepped down after revealing an “inappropriate” relationship with a man some years ago, reports Beliefnet.com. Pastor Sam Allberry, author of Is God Anti-Gay?, stepped down from his position as an associate pastor at Immanuel Church Nashville, a nondenominational, independent congregation after what the church called “a serious breach of trust.” In a statement put out by the church elders, it stated Allberry had informed the church in 2024 of an “inappropriate relationship” with a man in 2022. The statement noted that the relationship had concluded prior to Allberry being called to his position in the church in 2023. At the time, the church stated it conducted a “thorough investigation” of the relationship and concluded that it was not “disqualifying” for the position. In a February 15, 2017 statement, Sam Allberry said this. ALLBERRY: “Sam Allberry, Oxford. I am same-sex attracted and have been my entire life. By that I mean that I have sexual, romantic and deep emotional attractions to people of the same sex. “I choose to describe myself this way because sexuality is not a matter of identity for me, and that has become good news. My primary sense of worth and fulfillment as a human being is not contingent on being romantically or sexually fulfilled, and this is liberating. “The most fully human and complete person who ever lived was Jesus Christ. He never married, He was never in a romantic relationship, and never had sex. If we say these things are intrinsic to human fulfillment, we are calling our Savior, subhuman.” When news broke last week about Sam Allberry's inappropriate relationship with a man, The Gospel Coalition, a group of pastors and churches that “put the Gospel of Jesus Christ at the center of all activities,” immediately announced that it would be removing all of Sam Allberry's content from its website and channels. By contrast, Living Out, the organization co-founded by Allberry to encourage Christians to “live out their sexuality and identity in ways that enable all to flourish in Christ-like faithfulness,” took a different position. In an online statement, they confirmed that Allberry's “many past contributions to this site retain their value, and they will not be taken down”, adding that the organization “exists because of people like Sam, for people like Sam.” Four Christian leaders most closely associated with Sam Alberry include Ray Ortlund, Russell Moore, Preston Sprinkle, and the late Ravi Zacharias. Romans 1:24, 26-28 says, “Therefore, God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. … “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. “Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.” Close And that's The Worldview on this Monday, May 11th, in the year of our Lord 2026. Follow us on X or subscribe for free by Spotify, Amazon Music, or by iTunes or email to our unique Christian newscast at www.TheWorldview.com.  Plus, you can get the Generations app through Google Play or The App Store. I'm Adam McManus (Adam@TheWorldview.com). Seize the day for Jesus Christ.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Derwin L. Gray, co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church. Since launching in 2010, Transformation Church has become a multi-ethnic, multi-generational movement impacting thousands locally and globally. In this conversation, Derwin tackles one of the most pressing—and often avoided—questions facing church leaders today: what are we actually multiplying? Are we forming disciples of Jesus—or unintentionally shaping people more through culture, politics, and media than through the gospel? Derwin challenges leaders to examine the deeper currents shaping their churches and to recover a bold, Christ-centered vision for discipleship. What are we actually multiplying? // Derwin raises a provocative concern: many churches are focused on growth, expansion, and multiplication—but not always clear on what is being multiplied. Are we producing disciples rooted in the gospel, or consumers attracted to experiences? He warns that without intentional focus, churches can unintentionally replicate shallow faith, cultural Christianity, or even ideological distortion. The goal of multiplication must not simply be more campuses or larger attendance, but deeper, more faithful discipleship. A discipleship crisis beneath the surface. // The issue isn't that churches lack discipleship. It's that many people are being discipled by the wrong influences. Social media, political ideologies, and cultural narratives are shaping beliefs and behaviors, often more powerfully than Scripture. This creates a “wrong discipleship” problem, where people identify as Christians but reflect values that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. The challenge for leaders is to re-center discipleship around Christ, ensuring that people are being formed by the gospel rather than the surrounding culture. The danger of ideological captivity. // Derwin speaks candidly about the ways the church can become entangled in political ideologies—whether on the right or the left. He specifically critiques the rise of Christian nationalism, defining it as the fusion of the church's identity with the identity of a nation-state. This, he argues, distorts the gospel by elevating political allegiance above allegiance to Christ. At the same time, he acknowledges the influence of secular progressivism. Both extremes, in different ways, can pull believers away from the centrality of Jesus. The call is not to disengage from society, but to engage from a distinctly gospel-centered perspective. Recovering a gospel-shaped identity. // At the heart of Derwin's message is a call to rediscover what it means to be shaped by the gospel. The good news of Jesus is not merely about individual salvation—it creates a new family across ethnic, cultural, and social lines. This vision is central to Transformation Church's identity as a multi-ethnic community. Derwin emphasizes that the gospel reconciles not only vertically (between people and God), but horizontally (between people and one another). When churches lose this vision, they lose their witness in a divided world. Courageous and compassionate leadership. // Leading in this cultural moment requires what Derwin calls “courageous compassion.” Pastors must be willing to speak truth clearly while loving people deeply. This means addressing difficult issues without fear of losing people, while also avoiding harsh or divisive rhetoric. Derwin acknowledges that this approach can lead to criticism from multiple sides, but he emphasizes that faithfulness to Christ must take priority over maintaining comfort or approval. Practical steps for leaders. // For pastors who feel their churches have been shaped more by culture than by Christ, Derwin offers simple but powerful starting points: pray, repent, and refocus on the gospel. He encourages leaders to equip themselves through study and to guide their teams in rediscovering a biblical framework for discipleship. Most importantly, leaders must model what they teach, demonstrating lives rooted in Christ rather than captured by cultural narratives. A renewed vision for the church. // Ultimately, Derwin calls the church back to its prophetic voice. The church is not meant to mirror the divisions of the world but to offer a compelling alternative: a community shaped by love, unity, and truth. When the church remains rooted in Jesus, it becomes a powerful witness to a watching world. To learn more about Transformation Church and Dr. Derwin L. Gray, his teaching, and resources, visit transformationchurch.tc and derwinlgray.com. Plus, pre-order his book, It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, so glad that you decided to tune in to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to this. I had a fragment of a conversation with a dear friend at the Exponential Conference and I want to have more of that today with you listening in. And this is a conversation that I know is impacting people. I think 100% of our church is in the country today. It’s something that we all are seeing. It’s impacting us. We’ve got to be thinking about this. Rich Birch — Honored to have Dr. Derwin Gray with us, incredible leader from Transformation Church. He and his wife, Vicki, co-founded the church in 2010. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped community community with two locations in South Carolina, as well as Church Online. He’s an award-winning author of multiple books. He’s been on the podcast in the past and is one of the people who, he’s called me out on the podcast before, and I have taken those lessons with me. And so I’m I'm hoping that happens with you today. Derwin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Hey, man, thank you. So good to be with you.Rich Birch — No, it’s it’s honest. You know, been multiple times you’ve been on the show and I I’ve walked away being like, man, okay, Derwin just, he’s just pushed me and and got me to think different, which I really appreciate that. So for folks that don’t know about Transformation, kind of tell us a little bit about the church and give us the context you’re in, that sort of thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So ah my wife and I co-planted Transformation Church in 2010 in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. And so neither my wife and nor I grew up in church, and both of us came to faith in our mid to late 20s, and primarily through people at work. There was a woman at my wife’s job who shared Christ with her. I had a teammate named Steve Grant, with the Indianapolis Colts, where I played in the NFL. We called him the naked preacher because after practice, he’d dry off, take a shower, wrap a towel around his waist, and he’d share the gospel. And over five years, I came to faith. My wife came to faith before me. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And all we knew was this. If Jesus is this incredible, this forgiving, this gracious, this is the greatest news there is in the world. And so we didn’t know what words like evangelism and discipleship meant. All we knew was this. I want to know him. I want to make him known. I want to know his word.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so that was in 1997, 1998. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina to play for the Carolina Panthers, and I got injured. And so all I could do was read my Bible, rehab my knee. And the following year, both my wife and I said, you know what? I think my NFL time is done.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — What are we going to do? We don’t know. So I got an invitation to speak at a youth event to share my testimony. And I said, well, what is that? They were like, a testimony is where you share your story of how you met Christ and what what took place. So I did that. People started calling me.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And in 1999, other Christians says, you guys need a nonprofit organization. You know, we’re like, what does that mean? So we started a ministry called One Heart at a Time. I would travel and speak. She would organize everything. We served at our church. Well, the longer we did that, we saw incredible fruit, but we also saw that wherever I would preach, it was ethnically segregated. It was it was really weird, right?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m like, wait a second. America is integrated, but the church is basically segregated. And so I began to ask questions and I got lousy answers. But as we read the Bible, it was like the early church was Jews and Gentiles. That’s what it was. It was a multi-ethnic church. Jesus not only forgave sins, but he created a family with different colored skins. Not only is that the future of the church in Revelation 7:9, but that’s the present reality of the church that intrinsic to the gospel is ethnic reconciliation. What good would it be Jesus forgives you but don’t love your brother and sister? So the cross is vertical and horizontal. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we were frustrated. And then we just sense God say, well, you can criticize or you can create. And so ultimately that led to planting Transformation Church in the south area of Charlotte, North Carolina, where actually physically in what’s called Indian Land, South Carolina, and our other campus is in Lake Wiley, South Carolina, but it’s really the greater Charlotte area.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And our church is more ethnically diverse than our community. And I want to be very, very clear. One of the reasons why we are ethnically diverse is because of the good news of Jesus. Like I explained, Jesus not only forgives sins, but he creates a family with different colored skins. And so for us, ethnic unity in Christ not only enhances our discipleship, but it enhances our witness to a looking and watching world which is filled with so much division. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And over the last 16 years, God has done miraculous things. We’ve seen 9,000 people come to faith, thousands be baptized. God has given us massive influence. We also have what’s called the Multi-Ethnic Church Roundtable, where we’ve equipped 800 leaders from around the world to do gospel-centered multi-ethnic ministry. We’re also in the process, Leon’s Crump and I, of launching what’s called the Promise Collective, which is going to be an intentionally multi-ethnic gospel-centered church planting network.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So a lot of wonderful things are taking place. And we think it’s pretty cool that God planted us in the state of South Carolina where the first shots of the Civil War were fired. And God has used this church here to influence not only the church in America, but even around the world. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we’re grateful.Rich Birch — Well, I, yeah, there’s I respect you on so many levels. And, and, you know, they these issues around being a multi-ethnic church are, you know, at the core of that. And just to respect you on for lots of what you’ve done. and And we ended up at this in this conversation, just to kind of bring everybody up to speed, we ended up in this conversation at Exponential that I leaned forward as just declaring my, ah you know, a little bit about me for folks that are listening in. So I am Canadian, don’t hold it against me.Rich Birch — But I’ve served mostly American churches in the churches I work with. And most of the 95% of the listeners of this podcast are in the States. I was in the States for a bunch of years. And that may become a little more obvious as we’re talking here why that’s why I’m talking about that context. But one of the things in this conversation that I heard you, the question you asked, which made me lean forward and then where it kind of unfolded from there is you asked the question, what are we actually multiplying? Exponential is obviously the global conference for multiplication, but you were pushing us to think about what are we actually multiplying? What is the the core of that? Can you unpack that for us?What were you thinking of when we started talking about that that day?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, sure, sure. Just to provide either even a little bit more context is it was a gathering of of very large churches. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And the question is what’s going well, what’s not going well? And so typically in those types of rooms, I like to listen. And so as I was listening, I was hearing no disrespect, but a lot of the same.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I kind of waited for everybody to to finish what they were saying. And I said, here’s something that Transformation Church does well, is we are equipping our people to stand against secular progressivism and Christian nationalism. And I said, what are we exactly multiplying? Because the state of the church the United States America is not good. It’s not healthy. It is divided. In many cases, it is it’s mean. Shallow theology, not loving our neighbors as God commands us to be loved. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So so my question was, are we just putting up more boxes for consumers to come in and consume because we have good music, good human-centered preaching. You know, we’re not going to mess with your idols. We’re not going to topple your idols at all. And yeah, you can invite your friends when we get more campuses. Because if that’s just what we’re doing, don’t sign me up for that. I don’t I don’t I don’t want any parts of that. That’s how we got to where we are now. And so you as a Canadian, here in America, the witness of the church is not very good. Like when I talk to people who are unbelievers, I have to untangle…Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …politics from the gospel because unfortunately there’s been an unholy wedding, particularly on the far right with aspects of Christianity, which has distorted and deformed. I think the secular progressivism is pretty easy to see, but I think the Christian nationalism is a lot harder. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, let me define what I mean by that. So first of all, Loving your country is a good thing. That’s called loving your neighbors. You love yourself. So my fourth grandfather, Moses Davis, fought for the Union, the colored cavalry of Virginia… Rich Birch — Wow. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …against the treasonous Confederate whatever it was. So in my blood is patriotism for my nation. America’s my home. But to love my neighbors, I love myself means not only do love America, but I love the entire world. And then as a Christian, we have a global body that we love. There are more followers of Jesus of color outside of America than the United States of America.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, what do I mean by Christian nationalism? This is what I mean. Christian nationalism is the attempt to fuse the identity and mission of the church with the identity and power of a nation state, treating the nation as a primary vehicle of God’s purposes rather than seeing God’s kingdom as a global Jesus-centered reality that transcends all nations.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — By that definition, Christian nationalism is a heresy. Because it basically says, if you don’t think like us, you can’t be a follower of Jesus. And so you’re adding to the works of Christ. And so Christian nationalism has infiltrated much of what I would say the majority culture, Caucasian church in America. Not all, but a lot. Where Christians, what what it means to follow Jesus has turned into a far right, almost authoritarianism versus, no, no, you have the right to vote in the United States of America. But as Christians, we don’t have a right to idolize nor demonize those who vote differently than us.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m not sure Americans know this, but most people in the world are not Republican or Democrat. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So if you say your faith is based on what you vote for, you’re adding to the work of Christ.Rich Birch — So, so Derwin, I appreciate you. So I’ve not heard a lot of people talk about this. This seems to be, I don’t know, it seems like something happened post COVID and the church in general, there was this like shakeup in the church in general where, you know, lots of people ended up in different places and it was like, we’ve become more divided than ever before. And I do think that there’s a significant dividing line at or close to what you’re talking about here, that it’s like, there’s a, there’s a new voice around Christian nationalism that seems to be gaining influence. Is that, is that, is that ah a false perception or is that the way you see it as well?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — No, you are 100% right. And it is a well-orchestrated, well-funded plan. With social media and the rise of social media influencers, paid propagandists can go on and infuse their propaganda into people immediately.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And here’s and here’s the thing. Populism does not require much intellect. All it requires is somebody to be angry at who’s taking from you. So the more divided we are as people, the more the oligarchs have power and the money that they make.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — They own the social media. They own the algorithms. I mean, for goodness sakes, Elon Musk promised people a million dollars to vote in Pennsylvania for the election. How is that even legal? Right. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So people are being inundated. Like we have family members that don’t even talk to each other anymore because they have red hat or a blue shirt, right? And so it has been in increasingly effective. But here’s the thing, Rich, that’s so wild to me. The admin the the Trump administration greenlit the FDA approval of an abortion pill. And I don’t hear any evangelical saying anything about it.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And even when you look at the Supreme Court now saying states can choose whether you do abortion or not, that’s pro-choice. You know, what used to be the Republican Party, small government, family values, those things are way gone. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so not only has Christian nationalism changed like, or not only has this current administration changed what the Republican Party was, but in many cases, it’s changed even so much of the church. And it is wild to listen to people in 2016 who said one thing, who say a totally different thing now.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s hard.Rich Birch — Well, yeah. And I so I think the thing you’ve, you’re putting a finger on and it’s, I appreciate you being willing to talk about and unpack it is there’s definitely like a broader cultural conversation that’s happening around these issues. That is for sure. We’re seeing that. And that’s having an impact on our ability to disciple the people in our churches or our people are being discipled by social media, by the algorithm, by YouTube And that can create or is creating a discipleship crisis in many of our churches. How do you try to find the line between those two to say, hey, we’re going to talk about the discipleship stuff… Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Rich Birch — …without getting dragged in on the you know the exterior? How do we how do we draw those lines in a way that makes sense?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so what I would say is we don’t have a discipleship problem. We have a wrong discipleship problem. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Because somebody is making students out of somebody.Rich Birch — Right, sure.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so are we becoming students of Jesus? that’s That’s the issue. And so what I say is this, how a person votes, that’s their conscience. But how do you treat the people who don’t vote like you? Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So for example, research shows black Americans are more socially conservative, more biblically committed than white Americans. But 90%, I’m sorry, but black American Christians, but black American Christians, 90% vote for Democrats. So how can you be more socially conservative, more biblically committed, but you vote for Democrat?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, because they don’t take everything that’s in the Democratic Party, just like most people who voted for Trump don’t take everything with him. And so we have to give each other the latitude and the grace. And there’s also pro-life Democrats. And not everybody who voted for Trump is evil. Not everybody who votes Democrat is evil. But the powers that be want us divided. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And when I and when I talk to my friends from Canada, when I talk to my friends that are pastors from around the world, Norway, different parts of Europe, Australia, England, and they’re going, what has happened to you guys?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I can tell you what’s what’s taken place is our faith is being distorted and driving it is fear and hatred.Rich Birch — Yeah. So I would echo that. The joke I’ve made, both with American leaders and leaders from other parts of the world, is there is a segment of the body of Christ that seems very angry about the love of God. Like they’re and they’re very fearful. Like it’s all it’s all anger and fear driven. And I don’t know whether, and it probably is related to the algorithms, but like we’re hearing from these people so much more than, than we used to. It used to be an echo chamber of people that lived in so much fear, but now it’s just out there. It seems to be in, in our, you know, in our feeds all the time.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, what used to be on the fringes is now on the main street, right? And so we need to re-gospel ourselves. We need a greater commitment to Christ. So, for example, life in the womb is precious and sacred. That’s not conservative. That’s gospel. That’s biblical.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Caring for the dignity of undocumented people in America is not liberal. That’s gospel. Wanting border control is not conservative. That is understanding that a nation has to have borders to flourish. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Believing that marriage is between a man and a woman, we believe that’s biblical. But loving and respecting LGBTQ people is not liberal. Loving my neighbors as I love myself. And if I have any hope of anybody ah coming to Jesus, they’re not going come to Jesus because I’m yelling at them and I’m angry. I’m going to love them and pursue them just like we’ve done here at our church.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I feel like what we’ve done in in in the church is we’ve taken a 250 year old country called America. And then specifically the last 10 years, we’ve made that the hermeneutic to understand the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — We’ve made that the lenses that we look through to determine the gospel. Whereas what I’m saying, let’s go back to the text. Let’s go back to the early church, the book of Acts, Paul’s letters, the gospels. That’s where our faith comes from. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Like I have lobbied on Capitol Hill with Republicans and Democrats about immigration reform. We need border security, but we can also secure the dignity of human beings, especially human beings who are undocumented and don’t have a record against them. Right. So there has to be a process to have strong borders, but also to hold to people’s hearts.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But but at the end of the day, right at the end of the day, we are people of the Lamb, not the elephant or the donkey.Rich Birch — So good. So good. So what’s the hardest part about leading in a church that really refuses to be captured by either side? I feel like there’s pressure on from both political parties to they, you know, I think somewhere along the line, they realize, wow, there’s a lot of power in these churches. And how do we you know, how do we kind of infiltrate or how do we gain that? What’s it like to lead a church that’s trying to, that’s refusing to be captured by both sides is wants to keep Jesus ahead. What does that cost? How is that, you know, what are some of the pressures of that? What have been some telltale signs for you as you’ve led at Transformation in this front?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, um i would i would I would say, Rich, sometimes I’ll get a critical email and a eventually those people will leave. But but but but for the most part, I mean, we’re 16 years in, it’s our ethos, it’s our character. People know who we are. They know why we are. And so like we’re flourishing, we’re growing. It’s beautiful. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — There’s a matter of fact, I got some messages earlier today just saying, hey, thank you. Like I was just about done with Christianity and I found Transformation Church, right? I mean, this Jesus, you’re this is what I want to be a part of. So I think respecting and loving all people, even though you disagree with them. And the thing that I said, I did a series in 2024 in the fall before the election on on the Beatitudes.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And my whole thing was how you vote is up to your conscious. How you treat people is not up for debate. We’re called to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. And so in our church, I’m sure we got people all over the political spectrum. I’m a registered independent myself.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But something that I think really landed well with our people is this: 99.9% of all followers of Jesus for 2,000 years and even now have never voted Republican and have never voted Democrat.Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Our faith is in Christ and Christ alone. And America is what’s called a constitutional republic democracy. It is not a theocracy. It is governed by a constitution, not the Bible. And so, yes, I want believers in place not to do some kind of spiritual Sharia law, but to make sure that the Constitution is upheld, which gives life and liberty and justice, not for some, but for all.Rich Birch — What would you say, you know, I’ve often thought around this, these, this issue and we’re kind of related issues. I have to think back to Billy Graham and I think like, man, we don’t know what, don’t what he’d be doing today. Like what would, I’ve heard this story that and in the fifties he gathered a group of what at the time, they you know they self afflicted they gave themselves the title of fundamentalist and they said, hey, we gotta stop calling ourselves fundamentalist because that word is so loaded in our culture. It feels like evangelical is like that today. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah.Rich Birch — It is when people ask me, are you evangelical? I’ll say, well, it depends on what you mean by evangelical because it has so much freight behind it. Do you think there is a place for kind of a broader discussion? How, how can we continue to try to create a middle here that where people can actually try to shed these, like you say, the Lamb and the donkey and, or the, the, the elephant and the donkey and, and focus on the Lamb. How do we do that going forward? How do we create those kinds of places where those kinds of conversations can continue to happen?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, you know, so let me answer the first question first is when I preached in Norway a few years ago, the people said, thank you for being so evangelical. And it had nothing to do with politics. So the term evangelical comes from the Greek word, which means good news. So it’s never meant to be a political voting block. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s never meant to be an ethnicity. It is good news people. So in Europe, I say I’m evangelical because it goes well. Here in America, I say I am shaped by the gospel. I’m a Christian that’s shaped by the gospel. Rich Birch — That’s good language.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I love God and I love my neighbors. I love myself. So I think we have a fundamental gospel problem in the American church. If you simply think the good news is Jesus died for your sins, now you don’t go to hell, then your discipleship is going to be very reductionistic. It’s going to be very individualistic.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, his ascension and then sending the Spirit, is not only do we spend eternity with him, but as brothers and sisters, we’re equally righteous, equally redeemed, equally the temple of the Holy Spirit, equally God’s children. So if all those things are true equally, then by definition, we are the body of Christ. So if you hurt, then I hurt, but we don’t think that way.Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we have to change the way we think. Paul says in Philippians 2.3, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but consider others better than yourselves. Verse five is “for you have the mind of Christ”. And so what we’ve been able to do here at Transformation Church is really move people deeper to the gospel. If you listen to one of my messages, you will hear gospel. That’s why we are the way we are. And the gospel challenges idols.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — When President Obama was president, I would get emails, “Oh you must be a Republican.” And then when President Trump, “You must be a Democrat.” I’m like, no, I’m an independent, but I’m called to be prophetic and to equip us to not be captivated by the zeitgeist…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …the spirit of the age. When the church loses her prophetic witness, we’ve lost everything.Rich Birch — That’s good.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that that names something that you put a finger on there, on something that I’d love you to unpack a little bit more. How do you do that as a pastor? Because I’ve seen you do that consistently. It’s like, how how do we be that prophetic voice, speak with clarity to ultimately point people back to Jesus, not be captured by just the winds of the day?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. Rich Birch — That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. I believe, you know, so I have, I have, I have talked to pastors who lead churches that may be, you know, center a little bit left. And well, if I talk about this issue too much, people may leave. Then I’ve heard other people like, well, if I talk about about this, the MAGA people may leave. And it’s like, well, Are you concerned about people leaving or are you concerned about honoring the call that God has given you? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And one day you have to face him and you’re going to say, well, you know, what Lord, I was afraid people were going to leave. Like you can be courageous and compassionate simultaneously.Rich Birch — That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So I, there are people on both sides of the aisle that passionately and deeply love Jesus, but have different perspectives politically. Now, Christian nationalism, that is a whole different species that that has to be lovingly challenged. And my job at Transformation Church is to equip our people and to be a shepherd because there are false prophets and wolves that are coming.Rich Birch — There’s a ton here. I really appreciate that. For a pastor that’s listening in today that’s thinking, man, I look at my people and I think maybe I they have been discipled more by cable news than by scripture. And I maybe haven’t done everything I could could have done. I haven’t been clear with compassion. I’ve just been, I’ve just kind of let this happen. What would you say some of the first steps that you would say for a for a leader like that?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, pray, repent, pray, repent. Take your elders and your staff through a book by Preston Sprinkle called “Exiles in Babylon” or the book by Michael Byrd and N.T. Wright. Both of them deal with you know how to be a faithful witness in this time of political division. But before you go out and share, make sure that you are equipped. But also choose not to be partisan.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Rich, the Epstein Files is one of the biggest cover-ups in American history. We’re talking about precious kids who were taking advantage of. And I mean, where is the prophetic voice that this is wrong, regardless of who’s in it? This is wrong and it demands justice. We as God’s people are going to be held accountable to equip this. Like, this is serious. Like, I’ve heard people say, well, there’s bigger problems in the world. No, there’s not.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Derwin, this has been fantastic. I want to point people towards, you’ve got a new book that’s coming out. That’s like like a huge left-hand turn here, but just looking at it, I think this could is is connected, obviously, to what we’re talking about in today’s conversation. It comes out this fall.Rich Birch — It’s called it’s a time or “It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered”. Tell us a little bit about this book, and I and I want to get people to you know actually pre-order this thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So basically the last seven years, what I have seen from followers of Christ is we’re the walking wounded. We are, we are just stuck. We have allowed our traumas, our histories, our pains, our failures, the way we’ve been hurt to keep us in a position of hurt. And we’ve just circled and circled. And then, a lot of preaching deals with behavior modification and doesn’t get to the root. And so I’ve just been like, you know what, God, I want to help God’s people. Right. And it starts with helping myself.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And what I do is I really take a theology of who we are in Christ. I take neuroscience and psychology and marry them in spiritual formationRich Birch — Love it.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And it’s by far the best book that I’ve ever written. I can’t wait for people to see the endorsements from people like Dr. Daniel Amen, Craig Groeschel, Christine Caine. It’s by far the most important book I’ve ever written and the best book I’ve ever written. And I believe that it can really help people heal. Like really understanding that trauma gets in our nervous system. It’s not just think harder, do more. Like we have to learn how this is embodied inside of us. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so, man, it transformed me writing it. And what I do is I walk the people through an acronym. The the book is in four parts and the acronym HEAL. H stands for honest about what what happened. E, expect hard. A, accept what happened and L, live from love, not for love. And I share some incredible stories in there. And so, yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to people healing.Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I would encourage people to, we’ll link to that in the show notes and all that. But I think it’s connected in that I think I think the extremes on both ends politically, they’ve picked up on kind of the pain in the zeitgeist. And they’ve they’ve said, hey, the solution is is is the other side is the enemy and we got to do something to tear them down. And we know that just won’t work. At the end of the day, it’s Jesus transforming our lives. It’s him restoring us to who we are. And I think this could be a great tool for folks as they’re wrestling with that. So I’m excited for that book to come out. Looking forward to that. And we’ll we’ll link to all that. Rich Birch — Any kind of final words as we wrap up today? I really appreciate you unpacking this a bit more and taking some time to, you know, kind of let us chat a little bit about it.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, two thoughts. Jesus said in Matthew 5:44 and 45, bless those who persecute you. And I said, love your enemies. And then Jesus said, you will know my disciples because they love one another. Refuse to let anger and hatred and division guide you.Rich Birch — That’s good. So good. You said two things. You had two you that and one other thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, yeah, it was it was Matthew 5 and you’re on…yeah.Rich Birch — Oh, I see. Right, right, right. Yep. Okay. That’s good. Nice. Where if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Just as we wrap up today’s call conversation.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, just go to derwinlgray.com, derwinlgray.comRich Birch — Nice. That’s great. Dr. Derwin, I just want to honor you. You’re an incredible leader. Thank you for being here today and helping us think through these issues. Thank you.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Thank you, my friend.Rich Birch — Take care.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Appreciate you.

Preston Sprinkle studied the full biblical narrative on women in ministry inductively, without an agenda. From Genesis to Paul, we discuss what he found and where it led him.  We also tackle what faithfulness to scripture looks like, and how opening your mind and changing your view can make you more biblically faithful rather than less.

What does the Bible actually say about women in church leadership—and are we asking the wrong questions? In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with biblical scholar Preston Sprinkle to explore the complex, often misunderstood topic of gender roles in Scripture. Drawing from his book From Genesis to Junia, Sprinkle shares his “exegetical journey,” a multi-year study that avoids predetermined conclusions and instead carefully examines key biblical texts. Together, they challenge modern assumptions often imposed on Scripture, including Western ideas about equality, hierarchy, and leadership. The conversation highlights how women are portrayed throughout the Bible—from influential figures in the Old Testament to faithful disciples in the Gospels—and why these narratives matter for interpreting passages like 1 Timothy 2. They also unpack how leadership functioned in the early church, revealing a more fluid and diverse structure than many assume today. Rather than offering simplistic answers, this episode invites listeners to wrestle with the full biblical witness, appreciate its complexity, and approach the conversation with humility, patience, and deeper study. Whether you're complementarian, egalitarian, or still exploring, this discussion offers fresh insight into one of the church's most debated topics. You can buy Dr. Preston Sprinkle's latest book here: https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9780830785803_from-genesis-to-junia? We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 The Journey of Understanding Women in Leadership 02:58 Cultural Context and Biblical Interpretation 13:04 Women in the Old Testament vs. New Testament 18:11 Exegetical Challenges and Practical Applications 23:42 The Complexity of Prescriptive and Descriptive Narratives 25:50 Theological Rationale in Creation Order 27:39 Desire and Headship: A Deeper Look 28:09 Authority and Epistemic Roles in Relationships 29:37 Leadership Dynamics in the Early Church 32:43 Paul's Perspective on Gender Roles 36:59 Women in Paul's Ministry: A Closer Examination 40:00 Cultural Context and Gender Stereotypes 41:50 Celebrating Gender Differences in Leadership  

A Scholarly Discussion on Women, Leadership, and the Church Preston Sprinkle's latest book, From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search For What The Bible Really Says About Women In Leadership takes an exegetical journey through the Scriptures, and Preston's consequent change of mind from a default complementarian position to the belief that women can lead and teach in the church without restriction. Some women responding have offered critique while remaining thankful for Preston's overall work in the book, including Beth Allison Barr, who published a response on her Substack which Preston has engaged with. We wanted to invite both of them onto TheoDisc to have a scholarly conversation where agreements and disagreements could be aired, and Preston could respond and clarify. That's the conversation we have on this episode of TheoDisc. Enjoy! SHOW NOTES Get Preston's books, including ‘From Genesis to Junia': HERE Theology in the Raw podcast: HERE Get Beth's books: HERE Watch our previous interview with Beth: HERE

In this episode, Sathiya sits down with Preston Sprinkle to explore the complex intersections of faith, gender, and sexuality within today's cultural landscape. They examine themes from Preston's book From Genesis to Junia, particularly the role of women in church leadership and how historical Christian ethics inform modern perspectives. The conversation highlights Preston's personal journey from a complementarian viewpoint to a more nuanced understanding of gender roles, as well as his thoughtful engagement with challenging biblical texts. They also discuss broader issues surrounding sexuality, dignity, and the importance of humility and compassion in theological dialogue. Ultimately, the episode encourages listeners to wrestle honestly with scripture, embrace personal growth, and pursue meaningful, grace-filled conversations within their communities.   SATHIYA'S RESOURCES: Free Recovery Book (The Last Relapse) Join the brotherhood (DeepClean Inner Circle) Live Training To Quit Porn For Good   PRESTON'S RESOURCES: Access Preston's Website From Genesis to Junia Book Follow Preston on Instagram   Timestamps: 00:00 Passion Rooted in Study 06:25 Bible Study: Humble Patience 08:14 Reconsidering Women's Authority in Scripture 12:41 Contextual Analysis of Disruptive Speech 14:30 Reframing Views on Women 20:02 Reevaluating One-Flesh Union Theology 23:06 Marriage, Theology, and Attraction 25:29 Understanding Same-Sex Attraction 31:20 Navigating Attraction and Desire 34:00 Understanding Lust and Insecurity 38:39 Church Conversations on Same-Sex Attraction 43:28 Relational Barriers in LGBT Ministry 46:11 Sex, Marriage, and Procreation 53:48 Transformation Requires Readiness and Cost 55:02 Theology in Raw Resources

There's still time to sign up for Exiles Minneapolis! Apr 30-May 2, 2026! Tony Scarcello has served in pastoral ministry since 2011, and is currently the pastor of discipleship at Red Hills Church just outside Portland, Oregon. He is the author of Regenerate: Following Jesus After Deconstruction and his most recent book Love All Our Neighbors: How Churches That Hold a Traditional Sexual Ethic Can Care for LGBTQ People, which is forwarded by Preston Sprinkle. It's a fantastic book, and Tony is a fantastic friend and person. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, I sit down with Preston Sprinkle.. We cover a lot of ground. From his story and deep love for Scripture to some of the most complex and often controversial topics in the Church today, including sexuality, gender, and women in leadership.   But more than anything, this isn't about quick answers or winning arguments. It's about slowing down, asking better questions, and remembering that behind every topic is a real person with a real story. Preston brings both clarity and compassion as we talk through what the Bible says, why it matters, and how we can hold truth without losing our humanity. Whether you're wrestling with these topics yourself or walking alongside someone who is, my hope is that this conversation helps you lean in with curiosity, humility, and love. Resources: The Genesee Diary by Henry Nouwen https://a.co/d/0iVu65ZU From Genesis to Junia by Preston Sprinkle: https://a.co/d/0cMugNBs Erasing Hell by Francis Chan https://a.co/d/06PuaeuK Thanks to our amazing partners on this episode:  Are you on the hunt for a new house? Genuinely look no further. The Tyler Goff Group has a proven process that has transformed the lives of many clients. With the Tyler Goff Group by your side, you're not just buying a house – you're investing in a future home you'll love. To learn more and to contact Tyler or his team, visit tylergoffgroup.com Vern Eide Motorcars is a growing employee-owned company that offers sales, service, and financing of automotive, motorcycle, and power sports lines, including Acura, Ford, Chevy, GMC, Honda, Hyundai and Mitsubishi brands. Whether you live locally or across the country, visit https://www.verneide.com/   Subscribe to Life Between Sundays on YouTube and watch the full episode: youtube.com/@adamaweber  Sign up for The Crew: https://www.adamweber.com/thecrew

This Postmodern Realities episode is a conversation with JOURNAL author Anne Kennedy about her article, “The Teaching of Preston Sprinkle, Biblical Sexuality, and the LGBTQ Conversation.” This is also part of our Anne's ongoing column, Theological Trends.One way you can support our online articles and podcasts is by leaving us a tip. A tip is just a small amount, like $3, $5, or $10, which is the cost of a latte, lunch out, or coffee drink. To leave a tip, click here.Related articles and podcasts by this author:Episode 484: Deconstructing Faith and Marriage when a Spouse Comes Out: A Review of Beard: A Memoir of a Marriage by Kelly Foster Lundquist“Deconstructing Faith and Marriage when a Spouse Comes Out: A Review of Beard: A Memoir of a Marriage by Kelly Foster Lundquist“.Episode 475: Is Good Christian Parenting a Myth? A Review of ‘The Myth of Good Christian Parenting: How False Promises Betrayed a Generation of Evangelical Families' by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey Kramer McGinnis“Is Good Christian Parenting a Myth? A Review of ‘The Myth of Good Christian Parenting: How False Promises Betrayed a Generation of Evangelical Families' by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey Kramer McGinnis“.Episode 470: Does the Bible Teach Complementarity? Does the Bible Teach Complementarity? Episode 461: Historian Diarmaid MacCulloch's Lens on Sex and Marriage: Summary Critique of ‘Lower Than The Angels: A History Of Sex and Christianity'Historian Diarmaid MacCulloch's Lens on Sex and Marriage: Summary Critique of ‘Lower Than The Angels: A History Of Sex and Christianity'”Don't miss an episode; please subscribe to the Postmodern Realities podcast wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Please help spread the word about Postmodern Realities by giving us a rating and review when you subscribe to the podcast. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more new listeners can discover our content. Apple Podcasts   Spotify   Spreaker 

On this episode of Mutuality Matters, Dr. Mimi Haddad meets with Dr. Preston Sprinkle to discuss his new book, "From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says about Women in Leadership." A deeply committed Christian, husband, and father, Preston Sprinkle said his career has focused on serving the church as a scholar. As such, he approaches questions concerning faith and life through a deep dive exegetical analysis of the related biblical passages and related historical contexts. For many years, as a complementarian, Preston read the key passages (1 Timothy 2:11–15, 1 Corinthians 14:34–36, and Ephesians 5:21–33) at face value—through a plain reading of the text which, seemingly, supports male leadership in church and the home. Yet, over time, he noticed how the Greek syntax in these passages was complex. Attending more carefully, he began to focus on single words in the text like “silent.” This practice was quite fruitful in helping him realize how women were not silent in Scripture contra 1 Corinthians 14:34–36. This seeming inconsistency evoked questions around what NT women were talking about. Clearly, they had a voice. In fact, leading Bible women were far from silent. God called and gifted women to speak as prophets, judges, warriors, and diplomats. Women were Christ's disciples, and women served beside Paul as deacons, apostles, church planters, and his coworkers. Romans 16 abounds with the voices of women, slaves, and non-Jews—aligning with the welcome of women as Gospel agents (Gal. 3:28). Stunningly, women's voices were heard in Corinth, as they prayed and prophesied in the church (1 Cor. 11:5), raising questions about the meaning of 1 Corinthians 14:34–36. Other passages in 1 Corinthians, such as 1 Corinthians 7:4-5, 1 Corinthians 11:7, and 1 Corinthians 11, challenged Preston as a complementarian because:   Wives and husbands have authority over each other's bodies: 1 Cor. 7:4–5   Women prayed and prophesied: 1 Cor. 11:5.   Women “… have authority over her own head, because of the angels:” 1 Cor. 11:10.   Woman and man are interdependent: 1 Cor. 11:11–12.   Preston cited as a helpful resource, Gregory Dawe's works on head metaphors in Ephesians, The Body in Question: Metaphor and Meaning in the Interpretation of Ephesians 5:21–33 (Biblical Interpretation Series, 30)   Turning to 1 Timothy 2:11–12, Preston points to the extreme use of authority (authentein) Paul evokes in this passage that mirrors the unilateral, domineering authority of slave owners over their slaves as it demeaned slaves ontologically as lesser humans for a lesser purpose. It was a devaluation Jesus challenged in Matthew 20:25–28: “Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”   Summing it up, Preston suggests that three complex, poorly translated texts cannot overturn the “wide ocean of women leaders in Scripture.” Which is why he cautions against silencing women based on a plain reading of the Bible. Add to this the many women scholars he admired even before becoming an egalitarian. Women like Drs. Linda Belleville Sandra Ritcher, Lynn Cohick, Cynthia Westfall, and others are deeply regarded and highly respected throughout the Christian world. We add Preston to the list of egalitarian scholars and leaders, thanking him for his very insightful work throughout this podcast and in his newest book, From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says about Women in Leadership, available in CBE's bookstore. Enjoy!  00:56 Welcome and Guest Intro  02:59 Preston's Journey Shift  04:56 Deep Dive Research Process  06:31 Key Textual Turning Points  11:04 Women Scholars and Influences  13:24 Feedback and Early Critiques  19:51 Jesus Centered Vision for Women  21:46 Conference Invitation Chicago 2026  24:39 Hopes for the Book  25:33 When Egalitarianism Gets Real  26:45 Why Change Takes Time  30:37 Texts of Terror Overview  31:06 Women Silent in Church  33:29 Marriage and Household Codes  35:18 Authority in 1 Timothy  37:32 Hardest Passage 1 Corinthians 11  40:24 Mutuality in Paul  42:07 Conference Invite and Thanks  43:29 Closing Prayer and Support   

In this episode we talk to author, Preston Sprinkle, about his new book “From Genesis to Junia”. Across denominations, there are varying perspectives on what the Bible says about gender roles. Through years of study, Preston gives us insight into what his perspective has become!

In this episode we talk to author, Preston Sprinkle, about his new book “From Genesis to Junia”. Across denominations, there are varying perspectives on what the Bible says about gender roles. Through years of study, Preston gives us insight into what his perspective has become!

Do you remember the children's book, "Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day"? That title also sums up what most Americans think about Trump's new war with Iran. Kaitlyn explains why the war is immoral based on Christian theology, Phil channels Ezra Klein to define America's new "heads on pikes" foreign policy, and Skye says the war fits Donald Trump's long pattern of laziness and impatience. Then, Preston Sprinkle is back to discuss his latest book, "From Genesis to Junia," about his journey to determine what the Bible really says about women in leadership. Also this week, Americans were the only people in a worldwide survey to say most of their fellow citizens are bad people. Plus, some happy puppy news.   Holy Post Plus: Preston Sprinkle Bonus Interview on Controversy: https://www.patreon.com/posts/152633138/   Ad-Free Version of this Episode: https://www.patreon.com/posts/152728321/   0:00 - Show Starts   4:15 - Theme Song   4:37 - Sponsor - Feeding America - Feeding America, led by neighbors! Give now to end hunger at https://www.feedingamerica.org   5:12 - Sponsor - AG1 - Heavily researched, thoroughly purity-tested, and filled with stuff you need. Get the AG1 $76 Welcome Pack for free when you order from https://www.drinkag1.com/HOLYPOST   6:42 - A Dog Called Ted   9:04 - Skye on Iran   28:30 - Americans Don't Trust Americans?   45:50  - Sponsor - BetterHelp - This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/HOLYPOST and get 10% off your first month!   46:55 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to https://www.hiyahealth.com/HOLYPOST to receive 50% off your first order   48:00 - Sponsor - For the Good of the Public Summit - CCPL's annual summit in Washington, DC to act on important public issues. Go to https://www.ccpubliclife.org/summit and use code HOLYPOST for 20% off!   49:12 - Interview   53:46 - Why's Preston Writing on Women in Ministry?   1:04:00 - Increased Interest in Egalitarian   1:14:20 - Tribalism and Taking Scripture Seriously   1:31:34 - End Credits   Links Mentioned in News Segment: Americans Think Americans Are Morally Bad: https://religionunplugged.com/news/2026/3/5/new-study-americans-think-fellow-citizens-are-morally-bad   Other Resources: Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/   Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus   Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost   Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop   The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

In this episode we're joined by Dr. Preston Sprinkle, who hosts the Theology in the Raw podcast and is the author of From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership (published by David Cook). In our conversation we talk about what caused Dr. Sprinkle to change his mind on this topic, and we discuss several key issues and passages related to the topic of women in ministry in the Bible. Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Rev. Dr. Nathaniel Adishian, Dr. John Anthony Dunne, and Dr. Grace Sangalang Ng. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a recent podcast, Preston Sprinkle interviewed Pastor Mike Erre about Charlie Kirk, TPUSA, and politics. His comments deserve a response, and this may reveal how many pastors actually feel and why they don't engage in what is labeled political.

On today's episode of Back Porch Theology, Lisa sits down with Dr. Preston Sprinkle to dive into the book of Judges through the lives of Deborah, Jael, and Huldah—three remarkable women whose stories reveal a God who is both utterly sovereign and intimately kind. They reflect on what Scripture truly reveals about women, leadership, spiritual motherhood, and everyday influence—and how a right view of God's smiling countenance transforms the way we live, love, and lead. Take a seat and stay awhile; we're so glad you're here.

Does the Bible prohibit women from any leadership positions in the church? The question has divided Christians for a long time, so Nathan Clarkson and Joseph Holmes invite Bible scholar Dr. Preston Sprinkle to discuss.  References and resources: Catholic view of female priests: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/why-the-church-doesnt-ordain-women Evangelical views of women in leadership (Piper Keller): https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/should-we-call-female-leaders-pastors https://times12.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/GenderEldersTimKathyKeller.pdf NT Wright on women in leadership: https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/womens-service-in-the-church-the-biblical-basis/ Websites: The Overthinkers: theoverthinkersjournal.world Nathan Clarkson: nathanclarkson.me Joseph Holmes: linktr.ee/JosephHolmes Preston Sprinkle: prestonsprinkle.com

In a culture that often avoids or oversimplifies conversations about identity, "The Bisexual Deception" explores the narratives and spiritual pressures shaping our understanding of sexuality. Rather than reducing people to labels, this talk invites listeners to move past cultural confusion toward a place of clarity, nuance, and compassion. By examining how society influences our view of desire and identity, this conversation equips you to look beneath the surface, challenge prevailing assumptions, and respond to the world with both wisdom and empathy. Resources: Watch the talk, The Bisexual Deception by Mo Isom Aiken on THINQMedia.com. You may also like Sex, Faith and Gender by Laurie Krieg, Matthew Liu, Preston Sprinkle and Kat LaPrairie. Bring THINQ talks and conversations into your local community with THINQ Local. Take the THINQ Assessment to help you understand how you naturally think, learn, and grow in your faith.  Subscribe to THINQ News & Data to receive news stories every Thursday delivered directly to your inbox. Create a free THINQ Account and download the THINQ Media app on your smart TV to access more trusted content like this on topics from all channels of culture at thinqmedia.com. Apply the THINQ Framework as you think through cultural topics. Attend THINQ events where you can gather with like-minded leaders, ask better questions and have conversations that lead to wisdom: Sign up for THINQ Summit 2026 October 1-2 in Nashville, TN. Host a THINQ Let's Talk conversation series in your home:  Let's Talk Relationships Let's Talk Civility Let's Talk Mental Health Let's Talk Tech Detox Let's Talk Politics More from the THINQ Podcast Network: Rhythms for Life with Rebekah & Gabe Lyons The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips NextUp with Grant Skeldon NeuroFaith with Curt Thompson UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons Now on YouTube! Subscribe, Like, and Share:  THINQ Media UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons NextUp with Grant Skeldon Rhythms for Life with Rebekah and Gabe Lyons The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips

In this episode we welcome @Theologyintheraw back into the Dojo to talk about his new book "From Genesis to Junia" and specifically to walk us through the passage in 1 Corinthians on head coverings. “From Genesis to Junia” is available at: https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Junia-Honest-Search-Leadership/dp/0830785809/ For more on passages involving women's roles in the church, see our discussion with Dr. Carmen Joy Imes at: https://youtu.be/rSur9vM-dC8 ***Disciple Dojo shirts and other gifts are available over in our online store! - https://www.zazzle.com/discipledojo ***Become a monthly Dojo Donor and help keep us going! - https://www.discipledojo.org/donate ***Dojo Donor Patches: If you are a monthly donor and would like an iron-on DiscipleDojo patch, supplies are limited so message JM directly via the contact page at https://www.discipledojo.org/contact ***If you are an unmarried Christian looking for community, check out our Facebook group “The Grownup's Table” over at www.facebook.com/groups/grownupstable ------ Go deeper at www.discipledojo.org

Thursday, March 5, 2026 On the show today, our host Kerby Anderson welcomes back scholar, speaker, and author, Dr. Preston Sprinkle. Dr. Sprinkle will join Kerby to talk about The Church, Theology, Women's Issues and about his new book, “From Genesis to Junia.” Connect with us on Facebook at facebook.com/pointofviewradio and on Twitter @PointofViewRTS with […]

Can women be pastors? That's the question we're talking about today,  not as a hot take, not as a debate, but as an honest, Scripture-rooted conversation.In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Preston Sprinkle to talk about his new book From Genesis to Junia and what the Bible really says about women in leadership. We talk about where he started personally, what surprised him in his research, and why this conversation feels so personal for so many women.We also gently step into topics like submission, headship, and how to hold biblical authority alongside compassion and context.If you've ever wondered about God's heart for women and their role in the Church, I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.To connect with Preston, head over to https://www.prestonsprinkle.com or @preston.sprinkle on IG!Get Preston's new book here: https://amzn.to/4r8U4nL Preston's podcast, Theology in the Raw: https://theologyintheraw.com/podcasts Submit a question for “Ask Han” here: https://forms.gle/qWGxyy9M5Q5N2tMz9 SUPPORT BY WORDS: https://buymeacoffee.com/bywordsMy favorite Bible studies + devotionals - HANNAHHUGHES10  for 10% off: https://thedailygraceco.com?dt_id=300773 CONNECT:hello@thehannahhughes.comhttps://www.instagram.com/thehannahhughes 

Join Lisa Whittle in this compelling kickoff episode of her new podcast mini-series, "Women," as she interviews Dr. Preston Sprinkle about what the Bible really says regarding women in leadership. From the complexities of Pauline texts to the leadership roles of women in the early church, this conversation emphasizes the importance of thorough biblical investigation, cultural understanding, and humility. Preston shares how his own journey from a complementarian background to a more nuanced view was shaped by years of diligent study. This episode encourages believers to pursue biblical literacy and respectful dialogue, recognizing that this issue divides and heals the church at the same time. Whether you lean complementarian or egalitarian, or are still exploring, you will find wisdom and grace in this honest discussion.   Listen in to learn more: (0:20) Introduction to Preston Sprinkle and his scholarly background (1:50) Why Lisa felt compelled to bring this conversation to the series (5:27) Preston's personal journey from a complementarian upbringing to biblical investigation (8:32) The importance of careful hermeneutics in understanding Scripture on women in leadership (25:39) The complexity of Pauline passages like 1 Corinthians 11 and 14, and 1 Timothy 2 (36:33) How the early church and house churches inform women's roles today (40:15) The significance of biblical examples like Lydia and Priscilla (44:50) Labels and the importance of humility and respectful dialogue in controversial topics (51:40) Comparing biblical texts with structures of modern church leadership (57:02) How to model and practice responsible leadership and unity in the church   Mentioned in the episode: Global Christian Relief: http://link.globalchristianrelief.org/lisa   Preston's Book – From Genesis to Junia: What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership: https://a.co/d/0dt6Crm4 Embodied: Living as Whole People in A Fractured World: https://a.co/d/0bkdSWKv Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender: https://centerforfaith.com Theology in the Raw Podcast: https://theologyintheraw.com/podcasts Lisa Whittle's Bible Study – Body and Soul: https://www.lisawhittle.com/body Connect with Lisa:Website: https://www.lisawhittle.comSubstack: https://letsbeclear.substack.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lisawhittleofficialInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisawhittleFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lisawhittleofficial

Preston Sprinkle joins Levi and Jennie for a candid, hilarious, and deeply thoughtful conversation around his newest book, From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership. Preston shares what sent him on a years-long, thousand-hour deep dive through Scripture, scholarship, and church history without rushing to “pick a side.” Along the way, the crew gets real about how these conversations actually land in local churches: the tension, the backlash, the nuance, and the very human emotions involved. From Jesus' surprising elevation of women, to the “problem passages” like 1 Timothy 2 and Romans 16, this episode is an invitation to slow down, stay humble, and let the Bible speak louder than the algorithms. Connect with us on social! Preston: @preston.sprinkle Levi: @levilusko Jennie: @jennielusko Fresh Life Church: @freshlife [Links] From Genesis to Junia book – https://bit.ly/4tG5dz2 Theology in the Raw Podcast – https://bit.ly/4s1GILd Get the 5 Gallon Bucket: https://bit.ly/sdl4sHY Get the Lusketeer Sticker: https://bit.ly/sdl4sHY Subscribe for more exclusive content: https://levilusko.com/hitl-subscribe Time Stamps 0:00:19 – Hats, Boise memories, and the “pollen snow” bike ride 0:05:44 – Immigration, algorithms, and thinking Christianly first 0:29:49 – Why Preston spent 1,000+ hours on women in leadership 0:45:13 – Fresh Life's journey, backlash, and Jennie's honest emotions 0:52:26 – Jesus, the early church, and why women are essential to mission 1:00:54 – The “hard verses”: 1 Timothy 2 vs. Romans 16 (Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia)

Preston Sprinkle joins Levi and Jennie for a candid, hilarious, and deeply thoughtful conversation around his newest book, From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership. Preston shares what sent him on a years-long, thousand-hour deep dive through Scripture, scholarship, and church history without rushing to “pick a side.” Along the way, the crew gets real about how these conversations actually land in local churches: the tension, the backlash, the nuance, and the very human emotions involved. From Jesus' surprising elevation of women, to the “problem passages” like 1 Timothy 2 and Romans 16, this episode is an invitation to slow down, stay humble, and let the Bible speak louder than the algorithms. Connect with us on social! Preston: @preston.sprinkle Levi: @levilusko Jennie: @jennielusko Fresh Life Church: @freshlife [Links] From Genesis to Junia book – https://bit.ly/4tG5dz2 Theology in the Raw Podcast – https://bit.ly/4s1GILd Get the 5 Gallon Bucket: https://bit.ly/sdl4sHY Get the Lusketeer Sticker: https://bit.ly/sdl4sHY Subscribe for more exclusive content: https://levilusko.com/hitl-subscribe Time Stamps 0:00:19 – Hats, Boise memories, and the “pollen snow” bike ride 0:05:44 – Immigration, algorithms, and thinking Christianly first 0:29:49 – Why Preston spent 1,000+ hours on women in leadership 0:45:13 – Fresh Life's journey, backlash, and Jennie's honest emotions 0:52:26 – Jesus, the early church, and why women are essential to mission 1:00:54 – The “hard verses”: 1 Timothy 2 vs. Romans 16 (Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia)

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick and Svea tackle one of the most notoriously difficult passages in the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 11, which discusses head coverings and gender roles. The conversation centers on how people tend to retreat into fundamentalism—grasping at simplistic, dogmatic answers—when facing uncertainty or complex biblical texts. Rick explains that this impulse appears across the theological spectrum, from those who dismiss difficult passages entirely to those who impose rigid, literalistic interpretations without acknowledging the real complexities involved.The heart of their discussion explores why 1 Corinthians 11 is so challenging to interpret. Even top scholars disagree on fundamental questions: What does "head of" mean when Paul says God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman? Does it signify authority, source, unity, or preeminence? Rick presents Lucy Peppiatt's scholarly theory as one reasonable explanation while acknowledging it cannot be definitively proven. He emphasizes that any valid interpretation must account for all the facts without contradicting itself or the rest of scripture. Svea shares her personal experience of feeling stress and anxiety when hearing this passage read, even in the healthy environment of Autumn Ridge, reflecting the real impact these texts have on women in ministry.Ultimately, Rick and Svea encourage listeners to approach difficult scripture with confidence, curiosity, and courage rather than contempt or cynicism. They stress that it's spiritually mature to say "I don't know yet" and to trust in God's character while continuing to study and wrestle with hard passages. The main point Paul makes is clear despite all the complexity: men and women are interdependent, and all are fully dependent on God. Sometimes the most important lesson from a difficult passage isn't what it definitively says, but learning how to approach it with humility, rigorous study, and unwavering trust in God.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:55 - Connecting Fundamentalism to the Difficult Passage05:56 - Fundamentalism as a Response to Uncertainty07:00 - Svea's Personal Experience as a Woman08:45 - The Umbrella Imagery10:35 - What Does "Head Of" Mean?11:47 - John Chrysostom's Fourth Century Perspective13:30 - Long Unbound Hair & Cultural Context14:22 - Rick's Full Interpretation of "Headship"17:02 - Jesus' Functional Subordination19:27 - The Mystery of Angels in the Passage19:54 - Spiritual Maturity in Uncertainty21:29 - God Beyond Full Comprehension22:35 - Approaching Difficult Scripture as Worship23:18 - Lucy Peppiatt's Theory23:56 - Evaluating Competing Interpretations26:00 - Paul's Main Point: Interdependence26:25 - Dealing with Personal Bias28:46 - What to Remember a Year from Now30:54 - Preston Sprinkle's 20-Year Wrestling31:21 - Learning How to Approach Scripture33:02 - Impact Story: Red Letters Only Christian33:35 - Closing & Moving Forward

In this episode, I sit down with Preston Sprinkle to walk through one of the most debated questions in the church: women in leadership. We trace the story from Genesis to the prophets, through the ministry of Jesus, into Romans 16, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy 2, asking what the whole sweep of Scripture actually says about authority, teaching, and the nature of leadership in the kingdom of God. Preston shares his multi-year journey of wrestling with the text, where he lands, and why he believes we need deeper study and better conversations around this issue for the sake of the church and our witness in the world.Dr. Preston Sprinkle is a biblical scholar, speaker, podcaster, a New York Times bestselling author, and is the co-founder and president of The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender. He earned a Ph.D. in New Testament from Aberdeen University in Scotland (2007), and has taught theology at Cedarville University (OH), Nottingham University (U.K.), and Eternity Bible College (CA). Preston is an international speaker who's written over a dozen books including Does the Bible Support Same-Sex Marriage? and his most recent book: Exiles: The Church in the Shadow of Empire. Preston currently serves as the president of The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender, an organization that equips Christians to engage questions about faith, sexuality and gender with theological faithfulness and courageous love. And he's also the president of Theology in the Raw, which includes the popular “Theology in the Raw” podcast and the annual “Exiles in Babylon” conference.Preston's Book:From Genesis to JuniaConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.comGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTubeConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link belowGet Your Sidekick Support the show

What if the Bible's clearest teaching on women in leadership isn't what you've been told? In this thoughtful conversation, Dr. Preston Sprinkle — bestselling author and founder of the Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender — shares findings from his three-year, 1,000-hour journey studying what Scripture actually says about women in church leadership.Preston unpacks what shocked him about his research on women and leadership and why the rare Greek word in 1 Timothy 2:12 changes everything.Discover how approaching Scripture with humility and curiosity—even when you disagree—can move us all closer to the truth and the heart of Jesus.Key Insights:00:40 - Why Being Around People You Disagree With Matters02:58 - Raised Complementarian: Why This Study Became Essential05:44 - The Sole Goal: What Does This Ancient Text Actually Say?06:46 - What Shocked Preston Most About Women in the Bible 10:29 - Women Model the Radical Courage Jesus Requires 12:01 - What IS Christian Authority? (This Changes Everything) 18:07 - Redefining Headship as Self-Giving Service 20:08 - 1 Timothy 2: The Strongest Complementarian Argument 27:32 - The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender Resources Mentioned:From Genesis to Junia: A Guide to Women in Leadership by Preston SprinkleChristian Sexuality: Raising Kids Exiles ConferenceTheology in the Raw PodcastPreston Sprinkle: ⁠https://prestonssprinkle.com/⁠ Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender:⁠ https://www.centerforfaith.com/⁠Follow Innovative Church Leaders:Website: https://innovativechurchleaders.org/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@InnovativeChurchLeaders Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/InnovativeChurchLeaders/ Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/innovativechurchleaders Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/innovativechurchleaders LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/innovative-church-leaders/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@innovativechurchleadersDr. Eric Bryant: https://ericbryant.org/ Pastoral Cohort with N.T. Wright: https://innovativechurchleaders.org/cohort/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-post-christian-podcast/id1509588357Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ZeQIrzr2tCMyq1VdwxGNnIron sharpens iron. Learn to pursue truth with people you disagree with. Get practical tools + encouragement at https://www.innovativechurchleaders.org/join-us.#ChurchLeadership #WomenInMinistry #BiblicalScholarship #CulturalDiscernment #SpiritLed #Egalitarian #Complementarian #TheologicalHumility #1Timothy2

Ben welcomes author and speaker Preston Sprinkle back to the show for a candid and thought-provoking conversation about one of the most debated issues in the church today: women in leadership.Preston, known for tackling controversial topics with humility and depth, shares the three-and-a-half-year theological journey behind his new book, From Genesis to Junia. Rather than starting with a fixed conclusion, he wrestled honestly with Scripture, historical context, and the strongest arguments on both sides of the complementarian vs. egalitarian debate.Pre-order Genesis to Junia HERE----------------------Ben has completely revised and updated his powerful book, Jesus in the Secular World: Reaching a Culture in Crisis—a must-read guide for anyone longing to reach those who may never step foot in a church. Packed with real-world insights and practical strategies, this book could be the breakthrough you've been searching for.Don't wait—get your copy today!Click HERE to check it out on Amazon.For more information, go to: jesusinthesecularworld.com------------------------Questions, comments, or feedback? We'd love to hear what you think! Send them to provokeandinspire@steiger.org, or send us a message on Instagram.Click HERE to receive news, thought-provoking articles, and stories directly in your inbox from Ben, David, Luke, and Chad!Click below to follow the regulars on Instagram!Ben PierceDavid PierceChad JohnsonLuke GreenwoodSend a text

What if a woman's role in church leadership is more nuanced than we've been taught? In this episode, Lisa is joined by Preston Sprinkle who shares his three-year journey studying Scripture's view on this divisive issue, revealing how God consistently used women in powerful ways throughout biblical history. From the faithful midwives of Exodus to Junia the apostle, discover how Scripture affirms women's vital role in God's kingdom while maintaining biblical truth.  Join this honest exploration that bridges traditional interpretations with fresh scholarly insights. ___________________________________________ FREE Show Notes Here: https://page.church.tech/a98ef5e7 ___________________________________________ Click here to order Preston's new book, "From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership": https://a.co/d/04H3ffYP ___________________________________________ Order premium meat now through Good Ranchers—use code “LISA" at checkout: https://go.goodranchers.com/lisa ___________________________________________ Our generous listeners who faithfully support this content monthly make the Lisa Bevere Podcast possible. Support this podcast here (tax-deductible): https://3szn.short.gy/FFF ___________________________________________ Social Handles and Websites: Instagram: @lisabevere Facebook: /LisaBevere.Page Twitter (X): @LisaBevere https://lisabevere.com/ Please Note: The views and opinions expressed by the guest on this episode are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, beliefs, or positions of Messenger International.

What if a woman's role in church leadership is more nuanced than we've been taught? In this episode, Lisa is joined by Preston Sprinkle who shares his three-year journey studying Scripture's view on this divisive issue, revealing how God consistently used women in powerful ways throughout biblical history. From the faithful midwives of Exodus to Junia the apostle, discover how Scripture affirms women's vital role in God's kingdom while maintaining biblical truth.  Join this honest exploration that bridges traditional interpretations with fresh scholarly insights. ___________________________________________ FREE Show Notes Here: https://page.church.tech/a98ef5e7 ___________________________________________ Click here to order Preston's new book, "From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership": https://a.co/d/04H3ffYP ___________________________________________ Order premium meat now through Good Ranchers—use code “LISA" at checkout: https://go.goodranchers.com/lisa ___________________________________________ Our generous listeners who faithfully support this content monthly make the Lisa Bevere Podcast possible. Support this podcast here (tax-deductible): https://3szn.short.gy/FFF ___________________________________________ Social Handles and Websites: Instagram: @lisabevere Facebook: /LisaBevere.Page Twitter (X): @LisaBevere https://lisabevere.com/

Southside Tribe! Our brother Dr. Preston Sprinkle is back to discuss his new book, From Genesis to Junia, and the deeply debated question of women in church leadership. Preston shares about his three-and-a-half-year research journey—one that rivaled doctoral-level work—where he committed to studying not just voices that agreed with him, but the strongest arguments on the other side. Together we wrestle through Genesis, all the way to Paul's letters. This convo challenges listeners to distinguish between loving a narrative and loving the truth—and to approach controversial issues with curiosity rather than fear and assumptions. If you've ever wondered what it looks like to let Scripture speak on its own terms—even when it disrupts your theological framework—this episode invites you into that tension with grace, depth, and courage. Pull up! Episode on all audio platforms, video and bonus content exclusively on our Patreon community!! Become a Patreon member for Early Access, Full Episode Videos & Exclusive Bonus Content - https://patreon.com/Southsiderabbi Southside Rabbi is proudly sponsored by Redeem Healthshare, a division of Samaritan Ministries. Learn more here: https://hubs.ly/Q03MQXV_0 Southside Rabbi is proudly sponsored by Native Supply - grab SR merch there! https://www.native.supply https://native.supply/collections/southside-rabbi Follow us Online: Southsiderabbipodcast.com https://linktr.ee/southsiderabbi Email us at Southsiderabbipodcast@gmail.com Intro music produced by Randeaux- https://www.instagram.com/randeauxbandeaux/ Contact at randeauxbandeaux@gmail.com All rights reserved by their respective owners.

Does the Bible truly restrict women in leadership? In this thought-provoking Voxology Podcast episode, Mike Geary, Susie Lind, and Preston Sprinkle wrestle with this deeply significant theological question. Drawing from Preston's upcoming book, *From Genesis to Junia: What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership*, they explore the historical, cultural, and biblical contexts that shape complementarian and egalitarian debates. Are women called to lead, preach, and teach in the church? What role does cultural context play in interpreting scripture? With a blend of personal stories, rigorous scholarship, and honest dialogue, the hosts unpack passages like 1 Timothy 2 and Ephesians 5, illuminating how interpretations of authority, headship, and agency have shaped the Church's approach to women in ministry. Susie shares her lived experience as a pastor navigating these challenges, while Preston dives into the exegetical work that informed his book. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about how faith intersects with justice, theology, and cultural issues. Join the conversation as the hosts emphasize Jesus' inclusive teachings and challenge the commodification of women within religious structures. We encourage you to engage the discussion on Facebook and Instagram, or share your thoughts in the comments below. Let's continue to pursue understanding, humility, and critical thinking as we navigate these important topics together.  CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Our Break from the Lord's Prayer 05:03 - INTRO to Preston Sprinkle Interview 09:29 - This Weekend 10:39 - Poems 12:06 - Intro 13:56 - Origins of Our Faith 17:10 - Susie's Journey 18:34 - Preston's Journey 23:28 - Best Argument for Complementarianism 27:10 - Understanding 1 Timothy 2:12 28:00 - Analyzing 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 28:40 - Exegetical Laziness in Scripture 33:20 - Trusting English Translations 39:44 - Kephale: "Head" or "Source" 37:18 - Ephesians 5:23 Explained 38:18 - Insights on 1 Corinthians 11:3 39:18 - Meaning of "Head" in Context 41:04 - Greco-Roman Household Code 42:08 - Reexamining the Meaning of "Head" 48:54 - Process of Becoming a Pastor 52:00 - The Right Plumbing for Ministry 57:38 - Thank You 1:00:20 - Where to Find More of Preston's Work 1:01:06 - Upcoming Book Release 1:01:46 - Sign Off 1:05:05 - Support the Show As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to hello@voxpodcast.com, and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram. We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV. Our Merch Store! https://www.etsy.com/shop/VOXOLOGY?ref=shop_sugg_market Learn more about the Voxology Podcast Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

Sissy Goff and David Thomas talk with Dr. Preston Sprinkle about how parents and the church can help kids navigate identity, gender, and sexuality with both clarity and compassion. Preston emphasizes being a non-anxious presence, starting age-appropriate, Jesus-centered conversations early, and building strong relationships that keep hard conversations open. Together, they explore how conviction and kindness can coexist, why discomfort builds resilience, and how parents can respond without panic or pressure. Resources mentioned: Theology in the Raw From Genesis to Junia: An Honest Search for What the Bible Really Says About Women in Leadership by Preston Sprinkle . . . . . .  Sign up to receive the⁠ bi-⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠monthly newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to keep up to date with where David and Sissy are speaking, where they are taco'ing, PLUS conversation starters for you and your family to share! Pre-order our new book, Capable and grab tickets for Capable - The Book Tour here! See our speaking dates, purchase books and check out our courses here.. . . . . .  If you would like to partner with Raising Boys and Girls as a podcast sponsor, fill out our⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Advertise With Us⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ form. QUINCE: Go to ⁠Quince.com/rbg⁠ for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. BOLL & BRANCH: Get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at Bollandbranch.com/rbg⁠. Exclusions apply. COOK UNITY: Go to cookunity.com/RBG or enter code RBG before checkout to get 50% off your first order. BRODO: Go to Brodo.com/RBG for 20% off your first subscription order, plus an additional $10 off when you use code RBG at checkout. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this solo episode, I talk about some of the highlights over the last year of the Theology in the Raw podcast. I give a little insight into how I pick guests, and some thoughts on platforming. We get into some of the stats, and I share some of my favorite positive (and negative) reviews from the Apple podcast app. It's been a great year! I'm glad you're with me. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this powerful 2-hour conversation, I talk to Christian counselor, Andrew Rodriguez (@psychobible). We expose the critical gap between doctrine and practice at Christian institutions — using Biola University as a real-world case study. Includes a discussion about Rosemead Psychology's stance on “conversion therapy.”

Even thinking about engaging in a conversation with kids about sexuality can feel scary, but Laurie and Matt Krieg have a heart to help parents approach the topic without fear.The Kriegs join Jackie and Preston to discuss moving beyond the shame-filled messages of purity culture – what was a “theology of no” – instead to a theology of goodness and flourishing. They talk about being your child's “anchoring bias” – the first voice a child hears on these topics – and why it's so important to respond like Jesus when your child is exposed to something online or confesses. Laurie and Matt also share about a new video series called “Raising Kids,” created with other thought leaders including Jon Tyson, John Mark Comer, Preston Sprinkle, and the Perrys, among many others. This 8-part video series is designed for parents of kids 12 and under, covering topics such as porn prevention, body safety, gender, and belonging. https://courses.christian-sexuality.com/courses/raising-kids  Check out Laurie and Matt's upcoming book, Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World: A Gospel-Centered Approach, releasing January 2026: https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Wise-Sexually-Broken-World/dp/1514012146Scripture references:Psalm 88:1-5 This Episode is Sponsored By:https://magicspoon.com/PERRY — Get $5 off your next order!https://policygenius.com/perry — Compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1sJoin Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membershipTo support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrysShop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.