Podcasts about zach who

Zach sits down with former StubHub and Facebook alum Bärí A. Williams to chat about intersectional identities. Bärí also talks about her upcoming book "Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege, and Bias" dropping March 31st. She shares what inspired her to write it and talks a bit about the challenge she faced in efficiently categorizing so many intersectional identities when it came to the 25 people she interviewed for the book.Pre-order Bärí's book on Amazon.Connect with Bärí on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. Check out her personal website by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, you know what we do, right? It's a Tuesday. Hopefully you're bunkered in somewhere, not panicked--what's the word? Oh, using an abundance of caution and, you know, keeping away from folks that don't wash they hands. You already--okay, anyway, we're not gonna talk about that. The point is you're taking care of yourself. Maybe you're listening to some smooth jazz and you realize, "Oh, snap, I need to listen to the Living Corporate podcast," and here we are, so what's up? You know that we are centereing black and brown voices at work, and we do that by having authentic conversations with folks across a wide array of industries, okay? I'm talking about energy to transportation to telecommunications. I'm talking about lawyers and doctors and professors and, shoot, hourly employees, activists, influencers. I mean, anybody really, as long as they're willing and ready to really talk about the folks that are most impacted, most marginalized, in this world that we live in, and today is no different. We have Bärí Williams on the show. Bärí Williams, you know, she's a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know, for me to try to, you know, wrap that up in a quick little intro would be inappropriate, so we're gonna get to know Bärí in this conversation and talk a little bit about what she has going on, and we hope you enjoy it. And with that being said, Bärí, what's up? Bärí: How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, I'm doing really good. I know we were talking off-mic about, you know, staying rona free. Bärí: Man... that rona.Zach: That rona. [both laugh] It's not playing doe. They said Chuck got the rona?Bärí: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Chuck got that rona... When Tom Hanks--Bärí: Tom Hanks got the rona.Zach: When Tom Hanks--when Tom Ladarius Hanks got the rona I said, "Okay, we need to slow down."Bärí: Fire yourself. [both laugh] Tom Ladarius. But also yes, because he's from Oakland.Zach: He's from Oakland. And this is the thing, when he called [?] I said, "Oh, okay."Bärí: Oh, no. So here's the thing. The funny part about that is Tom Hanks was in my uncle's graduating class, in the same high school and all that. So that's a real thing. Like, Tom Hanks knew about [?].Zach: Man. Well, see, I knew--so, you know, the apple don't fall far from the tree.Bärí: That doesn't explain Chet Hanks though.Zach: We not gonna talk about Chet? [laughs]Bärí: I don't have anything for Chet.Zach: Man. Boy, that blackness went away when he realized his parents was sick doe.Bärí: Right. That patois was gone.Zach: That patois was--I didn't hear--no patois ting--[laughs]Bärí: "Mom and Dad are sick, guys. Thanks for your prayers."Zach: Snap. He was tatted up doe. But yeah, [laughs]--Bärí: He tried.Zach: He did, he did. But yeah, okay, okay, okay. Look, there's a variety of things we could talk about, right? Like, a lot of stuff is going on. This is not typically a current events podcast. I do want to talk a little bit about the book that you have.Bärí: Yeah, yeah. Out March 31st. Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Get Your Conversations Poppin'. I interviewed 25 different people, and what was super interesting about it was it was 25 people that I picked, and I got probably five or six interviews deep and I told the editor, "Hey, I know we want to segment these into five different categories, but all of these people are intersectional. So you can figure out where you want to put 'em. I'm not gonna make that determination." Because who am I to say that somebody being LGBTQ and Christian outweighs, you know, maybe how they're genderfluid or express themselves? I'm not gonna--Zach: Yeah, you're not gonna rank that.Bärí: Yeah, or how when I talk to two black women in the spirits industry I'm not gonna rank whether they feel that they're black first or a woman first. "So you put them where you want them, but here they are."Zach: You're absolutely right. I mean, I think when you force--I think about, like, Feminista Jones. Like, she talks about this from time to time. It's, like, this idea that you make black women choose between their femininity, their womanhood or their blackness, and, like, that's violence, right? Like, you need to let people be all of who they are.Bärí: I totally agree. I would say what's hard for me with that though is that I can only speak for my experience, but I have always been black first, and the reason being is that all of the experiences in my life would not be different if I were still black and a man, and that's, like, wow.Zach: Let's talk about that. Break down that down a little bit for me.Bärí: Child, we can talk about it. My mama literally just texted me and said "I feel asleep reading your book. This is really good. I didn't know people were out here living like this." [both laugh] But yeah, I feel like--and I've been told this before, and it probably isn't a secret to you. I can have a bit of a dominant personality. [laughs] And that is--but I feel like that is not abnormal for black women. Period. Zach: It's not. My mom is like that.Bärí: Exactly, and my mom was like that, and my son's mom is like that. Which means me. [both laugh] So... I mean, if you're used to it you know how to deal with it, but the harder part, at least for me, is working within that framework in a corporate environment. What does that mean, to be a strong black woman in a white, predominantly male, sort of passive aggressive environment? And the answer is I still don't know, 'cause they say they want one thing, and then when they get it they're like, "Ooh... this is a little-- This is more than I thought."Zach: Well, I think a lot of folks do say that they want certain things, but it's like--you know, when you finally experience this, particularly when it comes to--you know, people say they want diversity, they want inclusion, and it's like, "Yeah, but until you're--"Bärí: Until it makes you uncomfortable.Zach: "You're in a room and you're doing a presentation and then three people who don't look like you raise their hand asking you a bunch of questions that you weren't prepared for. Then all of a sudden you ain't really like that," right?Bärí: Yeah, that's exactly it. And, like, I touch on that a lot in the book. So, in the book, it's segmented into five different categories. So it's Race, Gender, Age and Ability, Religion and Culture, and LGBTQ. And when I say that there were only--I interviewed 25 people. I actually interviewed more than 25 and let the editor decide what she thought--the editor was also a black woman, which was, like, fantastic. So, like, she got me, and that's very rare, particularly in publishing. And she read it and she was like, "Yeah, these are really, really good, and this is hard to figure out where to put folks," because you have people who are, you know, dealing with issues around culture and race, and then you have issues dealing with, you know, sexuality and race, and then you have people dealing with gender and religion, and so yeah, where do you put them? So out of the 25 people that we ended up selecting, in the end, only two sit cleanly in one bucket, and what was interesting about that is they were both Asian men. Zach: Okay, yeah. Bärí: Everyone else, you know, fit into multiple categories, and that's one thing we talk about is, like, how do you navigate being in multiple categories and fitting into a predominantly straight white male able-bodied world?Zach: And, you know, I think also, like, it pushes up against this narrative of, or just this binary mindset that we have about everything, right? You're either this or you're that or it's this or it's that, and it's like, that's just not the way the world works, and, like, people are really complex, but I think, like, part of, like, this decentering of whiteness, particularly white male straight able-bodiedness, is forcing people to realize that not only--like, these concepts are not new. It's just that certain things are happening now where you can't ignore those non-white male groups anymore.Bärí: Yeah, and I think people are very, very uncomfortable with that, very, and so part of it is in the book there are takeaways from each chapter. There are key--it starts with definitions in terms of, like, what are some things you're gonna see in here that people have said in their interviews that's gonna be prevalent and super relevant? Like white saviors, okay? And I didn't feel afraid to go there. Like, I know some people are gonna be like, "Ooh, white savior? So you're insulting--" No, I'm not, but you also think you're wearing a cape and you can save us all, and that's now what we're asking you to do, and also, like, you need to know that you're doing this. It's white saviors, it's understanding the difference between, you know, being cis and--like, people just--just terms and things that people may not be familiar with and to get them comfortable with the idea of that terminology and then how to use it.Zach: I think that's really important too, right? So, you know, we talk about white fragility. There are different types of fragility too. Black men can exhibit a certain level of fragility. I think, like, people who are in any position of relative privilege--relative privilege, now. Relative privilege. Have a potential to exhibit fragility, and I think folks don't necessarily like being educated when they're wrong. So, like, having something, a resource... and, like, Google is free, y'all, so don't... but anyway.Bärí: Child, I tell people that all the time.Zach: [laughs] Even if, like, getting corrected in public or by another human makes you uncomfortable, I mean, you could at least--I mean, you could engage with your own fragility in prviate. But anyway, the point is, having a book--Bärí: I will tell you, my husband is a product manager for Google, and he works on the Android wearables team, so he doesn't even actually work for the search engine, but when I ask him a question and he thinks it's dumb, he'll just send me the link--I'm trying to remember the acronym, but basically the acronym stands for "Let me Google that for you." Zach: Yeah, somebody sent that to me one time and--like, but this is the thing about that... and that's cute, and that's your husband and stuff, but let me tell you something. I remember one time I was at work and I asked somebody a legitimate question--Bärí: If somebody did that to me at work though I would want to fight.Zach: I said, "Wait a second. Let me tell you what it's not gonna be. You gonna answer my question, okay?" Don't play. Don't play with me. [laughs] Bärí: Like, there is a whole song out here in the Bay that was made that's called "What You Ain't Gon' Do," so... [Zach laughs]Zach: That's 'cause if I didn't have to talk to you I wouldn't, so don't--Bärí: Go YouTube that, and you might want to make that the outro music, 'cause--[laughs] 'Cause yeah, it's fine for Jamie to do that to me, but if somebody else did that to me I would probably roll up on your desk. Zach: [laughs] "So explain this. Why did you send this?"Bärí: Right? "So let's talk, Bob. Let me tell you what you ain't gon' do."Zach: And what ain't gon' be. Okay, so no, that's--let me ask you this. So, like, what was the inspiration to write the book?Bärí: Many things. I think--and this is gonna be long-winded and, but I remember being five years old--and my mom is a retired teacher from the Oakland [Unified?] School District, and she and a couple of colleagues sat around our dining room table in our apartment and they created what ended up being the oratorical festival, which to our surprise was made into a documentary on HBO last month. And she didn't know and I didn't know, and she was like, "Oh, look at this!" And I was like, "Yeah! Also, why are you not in it?" But I let that go. I let that go. I'ma let that go and let God. [both laugh] And she actually--what's funny about it is she was like, "I don't care." Like, if somebody's talking about this and it still exists, like, that's enough. Like, that was her goal. And so I remember sitting there looking at that, and I remember participating in the first year, and I won in the first grade for, like, my category, and I was like, "Did you rig this?" And she was like, "No," but what it did was it gave me a voice, and she cultivated that throughout my entire life when I wasn't, you know, doing debate time in high school and junior UN League. Like, all of that. So I always felt like I had something to say and, you know, everything doesn't deserve a response. I mean, I'm still learning that at 40. [laughs] But she taught me, like, when something does deserve a response, make sure you have a very calculated thing to say about it, and so I started to do that, and then I decided to write, and it was writing articles and op-eds in New York Times and Fast Company and Fortune and Forbes, and it made me think, "There's a [?] there, and there are things that people are not discussing in these tech companies that I see because I'm in them, and we can't fix it if more people don't know it's a problem." So that's what led to it, but it was more than that. It was like, there are other people going through different struggles and different departments in other companies, in other industries, and what does that look like? And that's why I ended up talking to, you know, two black women in the spirits industry. The spirits industry is dominated by older white men. And these are two, you know, 30-something-year-old black women with their own spirits, and they're Christian, and so that was one of the things where I told the editor, "I don't know where you want to put them. Do you want to put them in race or gender or religion?" But yeah, they've had people ask them in their church, like, "What are you doing? This is wrong" They've had people talk to them in the spirits industry, like, "Hey, girl, do you know what you're doing?" You know, they get it on all levels, and then I was talking to [Rabya?]. She's fantastic. She's the woman who did the defense for [?] in... what is the name of the podcast? I'm blanking now. That's terrible. Serial, and she talked about being, you know, a woman, being Muslim, wearing a hijab, and people--she knows she's a good attorney, but people would want her to write the briefs and do the background work but not show up in court. Zach: It's interesting, 'cause that's the kind of stuff--there's a pattern of that, right? Of exploiting black labor or using black folks' thought capital, wringing them dry for it, only for you to then take center strage and publicity and really interface, right? like, you see it--I'm sure that you've--'cause you've [?] in tech. Like, you've been with StubHub and Facebook. Like, you've been all over the place, right? Like, you've seen where, like, a lot of times black folks will come from, like, these HBCUs or, like, with these engineering degrees and then, like, work in the back in security. Security, y'all, is not--like, not tech security. Securing the building. Anyway. [?, both laugh]Bärí: I will tell you the funniest thing to me when I got to Facebook was it was 2014--Facebook started in 2004, so it was 10 years afterward. I was the first black woman in legal. There weren't black people in legal, so I was the first black person and the first black woman. There were no AKAs at all in the company, so I was the first AKA in the company. They had no Links in the company. I was the first Link in the company. Like, what are you doing? Like, if you want a highly qualified workforce, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated will get that done for you, The Links, Incorporated will get that done for you. And there were only, like, three Deltas in the entire company.Zach: Shout-out to my sorority sisters. What's up, y'all? You know, and my mom is also an AKA, but you're really repping. Like, you really got on this podcast and, like, inserted that plug. I respect that. I like that a lot. Bärí: You know, plug plug plug, but that's the thing that I wanted people to understand too was, like, if you want a highly qualified workforce--and yes, they may not have direct, on-point experience, but we all have analogous experience from doing this non-profit work, and that's the thing that people discount or don't see. So, like, you want to hire Brad in accounting and he, like, did an internship for two months at his dad's firm. Like, what do you value?Zach: Right? Well, when you start holding them accountable--so when you hold them accountable to the standards that they give you, right? So if you say, well, "You know, you don't really have X, Y and Z. Show me somebody else who does have X, Y and Z experience." Bärí: Yeah, show me what's comparable. Zach: Yeah, and they pull 'em up and it's like, "Yo, this person was... he was, like, a DJ, or he worked at a GNC. Like, what are you talking about?" And so then things just crumble because it's like, "This is not about this." Like, you're creating rules--Bärí: Yeah. Like, that's not really what you want, and that's fine, but, like, let's call a thing a thing.Zach: I think, again, it just fits the meta narrative of white people, like, creating new rules for marginalized people. Bärí: Well, it's something that I actually told a long bost and said, like, every time I hit the benchmark, you move the goal posts. Are you aware of that? And he was like, "What are you saying?" And I said, "What I'm saying is what I said." Zach: I just said it, first of all.Bärí: Yeah. Like, child, when I tell--and that's the thing, like, my mom should've never told me I should advocate, because I literally said, I was like, "No. I hit this benchmark, and you told me if I did this it would be that. If I did X, it would be Y, but now you're saying, "Hm, but in order to get to Y you really need to do--" And I was like, "Nah, bruh. You said this, and I have it in writing." And I did that. So now what are we doing? And he was like, "Why are you so angry?"Zach: What do you mean?Bärí: I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not angry. I'm just telling you this is what you said and now you're going back on it," and he's like, "But you're angry," and I said, "I'm not angry. I'm just holding you accountable, and maybe you're not used to that, but that's also not my job. Like, that, you should go home and talk to your mom or your wife about that."Zach: But you know what though? Like, just as a thought exercise, let's just say I am angry. Okay. Bärí: Then what?Zach: Then what? I am angry, because you said you were gonna do something and you didn't, or you said it was gonna be one way and it isn't, or I have written documentation and you're gaslighting me by acting like this isn't real. So yeah, maybe I am angry. Does that make my point less valid?Bärí: And it doesn't. Like, these are stories that people go through in the book about how people gaslight them in the same way, whether it's about them being a woman or about them being black or about them being LGBTQ. There is such a powerful story in there from a woman who's Asian who talks about, like, how her family essentialy made her feel like she had to whitewash herself to be successful, and then when she got to college it was like, "I don't know how to relate to Asian people now." And then when she got in the workplace she's like, "Now I have to relate to both, and how does that work?" I mean, that's real. Like, you know, how you're socialized is how you end up projecting yourself to the world.Zach: That's right, unknowingly or unknowingly, and that's the scary part, right? Like, you end up doing this thing, like, where you're raised. You're just growing up. Like, you're raised a certain way, and then you hit the real world and you realize like, "Dang, I have a lot of internalized depression and, like, I didn't even know that." Bärí: Mm-hmm, and that is--that honestly is one of the--it's funny, 'cause my son, he's now 9-and-a-half, but when I had to finish this book towards the middle of October, I was so tired. When I tell you, child, on the last day before I had to hit the bit I was like, "Ugh." I stopped to watch, like, a Real Housewives marathon, and he came to me. He was like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "Excuse you?" And he said, "Mommy, what are you doing?" And I said, "I'm taking a break." And he's like, "Are you done yet?" And I said, "Do you understand what break means?" And he was like, "Well, you let me take a break, but you give me a time. Like, you've been watching this for, like, three hours. Have you hit Send?" And I was like, "No, I haven't," and he's like, "Okay, so then you get one more hour and then you need to finish." But to me, what I took that as was, like, he wasn't being defiant, he was actually imposing the rules that I put on him, which I was like, "Oh, so my parenting isn't totally failing."Zach: No, he has internalized that level of accountability and he is giving you that same energy back.Bärí: Yeah, but the same energy I had to give him was, like--I listen to so many stories about, you know, marginalized communities, interviewing these folks, particularly black men and their experiences, and you don't get to mess up, and I've told him that, and so he's like, "Why are you sitting here watching a Real Housewives marathon for three hours? You haven't pressed Send. Like, girl, get it done." And I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're right." But it's that same energy. Like, you have to be twice as good to get half as far, and that story was all of these people in the book, which was crazy, because it cuts across everything. It cuts across disability. It cuts across sexuality. It's like you have to make up for who you are by doing more work.Zach: You know, I think about a conversation we just had with Ruchika Tulshyan, and we were talking about how black men are often times left ot of the corporate D&I initiatives, right? So now, sometimes people think they're being really radical when they talk about "the angry black man." It's like, okay, I get it. That is a thing, and that's real, but, like, just the larger conversation about how black men are treated, and like you said, we don't have opportunities to mess up, and the same thing could be said for black women of course, for sure. It's just this idea of labor and, like, having to do more just to--Bärí: And you're not getting farther. It's just--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. It's like, "I'm not doing more to get further or to get farther ahead. I'm doing more just to be equal. I'm doing more just to receive what I've earned," right?Bärí: I can tell you, my husband, he interviewed at a former employer of mine. My husband is 6'6" and, like, 235 pounds on a good day.Zach: Oh, he's lean lean.Bärí: Eh... I said on a good day. [laughs] But the way that he's built though is, like, very Michael Phelps. So he's broad. So he looks bigger than he is, and the feedback that they had is--and also, because of his size and because he is black, he has been socialized--and also he's light as hell. Like, I've had people ask me multiple times, "Oh, so your husband's biracial?" No, he isn't, but people just assume that he is. And so based off of his profile, he's very light-skinned, he's 6'6", he's built like a swimmer, and people--so he has been socially conditioned to basically... I don't want to say tamp down who he would be, but he's more docile. Super reserved, which is why our dynamic works, because I'll be, like, the person in your face, and he'll--Zach: Yeah, it's tough to be big when--yeah, I've learned that in a variety of different ways, but yeah. I keep that--I would say I'm probably more like you, Bärí. I'm like, "Ayo," but I'm like, 6'2", like, 280, so I'm like, a big dude. [laughs]Bärí: And you know that scares people.Zach: And I'm not that--and I'm lighter-skinned, but I'm not, like, light-skinned, right? So it's like, you know.Bärí: And that is so scary for me with our son, because our son is--he is darker than I am, and I'm brown-skinned, and he's already 5 feet and he's 9. Zach: Yeah, he's gonna be a big boy.Bärí: Yeah, he will be. And I believe he'll be taller than his dad, and even if he isn't, it's like, if you are 6'6" and you're a brown-skinned boy and you're in Oakland, I have to keep you safe. And so everything I do is about "How do we keep you safe?" And that sucks, 'cause, like, I wish you could just be free, but--Zach: And it's not... and not even to be a super downer, but I say this as someone who, shoot, maybe by the time of this podcast my daughter's gonna be here, but, like, I think about having black kids in this world and, like, there's the physical safety, but then there's a certain level of, like, psychological safety that you really can't protect them from, and, like, there's certain things they're gonna just have to--again, I'm not trying to be fatalist or, like, super down or whatever, but they just have to go. They're just going to have to experience. And it's, like, the feeling of being isolated or alone or otherized or not quite fitting in spaces. Like, that's a thing, right? That's a thing, and somebody that I really admire--like, there are a bunch of folks I really admire, but I think about, like, Bomani Jones, right? Like, he's somebody I see, like, in these spaces, and he never, like--on his platforms, like, ever talks about being one of the onlys or whatever. And some people are just built like that. He's just like, "I don't really whatever." He doesn't come across, like, really vulnerable in that way, and I don't know--and this is not about Bo specifically, but I think about, like, other black men in media or, like, in these really big profile spaces, and I wonder, like, to be successful in these hyper-white spaces, do you just have to have, like, a certain level of just, like armor, and just almost be really calloused?Bärí: I think you do. That's one of the things also that I learned from doing interviews in the book, and that's not even unique to us. Like, the folks who are dealing with LGBTQ gender issues and gender expression, they had to deal with that in terms of, like, people questioning them and, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Like, all of that stuff. And full discretion, like, I know Bo. Like, Bo and I are cool, and we've had that conversation, and part of it is like--to your point, it's not intentional. He doesn't mean to not say that. He just is like, "I am who I am, and you're gonna take it or you're not." And honestly, I've talked to him and have said, like, I want that energy for my son. I don't want him to feel like you have to have the burden of all black people ever on your back. Like, [?] does Bo, but he still reps us, and that's what I want, and that's what I want. Even, like, that I see with my husband. It's funny because I look at him--we're very, very different. He has had probably every advantage you can have in life. Like, he has gone to private school since he was born until he graduated. Like, he literally went to private pre-school, then he went to a private elementary school, private high school, he went to Harvard and then he went to Stanford, and I was like, "Bruh. You do not know, like, what it's like to live in, like, a real dorm." But he still came to--like, and he's from here too. He's from Oakland and came back and, like, tried to get in the valley and couldn't beat down the door. [Zach: Hm.] Right. And this is what everybody says that they want, right? These credentials. [Zach: Yeah, you know, he's checked every box.] And also, this is a light-skinned dude, right? So he's less-threatening. Zach: Right, and I'm sure he talks very proper. He enunciates his words well.Bärí: Child, I call him MC Carlton.Zach: So, like, literally his only knock is that he's black, and light black at that. Diet. [laughs]Bärí: Well, not even that. Also that was one of the things--so when I said my former... I had an employer who interviewed him. He got to the end of the round, and they decided that they didn't want him. They cut him. Like, they were hiring between him and one other person. They cut him because they said, "Oh, he didn't show enough passion. He wasn't willing to bang on tables." So when they gave me that--no, no, no, when they gave ME that feedback, I said, "Okay, so let's stop and envision this. Do you want a 6'6" 235-pound black man banging on tables? You're gonna be comfortable with that?" [Zach: And they said what?] They were like, "Well, what are you implying?" And I said, "I said what I said."Zach: Yeah, don't play with me. I'm not implying anything.Bärí: I said what I said. I didn't imply anything, I just said what I said. So if you saw that, you would feel safe? You would be cool? Zach: I mean, real talk. Would you? Answer the question.Bärí: They were like, "I mean, he just didn't show passion," and I was like, "That's not what I asked. What I asked was that if you saw a 6'6" bald black man banging a table to motivate engineers, you're cool with that?" And nobody could answer it definitively, and I was like, "And that's why you didn't hire him, so thank you, and I'ma go catch the shuttle." Like, I'm not gonna participate in this. This is bull. Zach: Yeah, this is ridiculous. It's super ridiculous.Bärí: 'Cause he's super reserved, and he's super reserved because he knows that he is a large black man and he can't do that. Zach: I remember I applied to--this is when I was first getting into consulting and it was between a few different firms, and one of the firms--and they were all, like, Big 4, right? So one of the firms I applied to, I went through the process and they said, "Oh, he was too passionate. He was too excited about the job. He smiled too much." So I'm just laughing at you, laughing at this situation, because it's like, okay, so you can't win for losing, right? I literally was the one smiling talking about how excited I was, and they said, "Well, he looked like he knew what he was doing, but he just seemed a little too smiley, a little too excited. He was a little too passionate for us." Bärí: But if he had been extra excited y'all would have been like, "Oh, my god. The black guy scared me because he's so big." [Zach: Exactly. [laughs]] And what I hate about this is, like, having to teach my son these rules of the road, because it's different in certain ways. He has my complex--actually he's darker than my complexion and he has his daddy's stature, and so you're gonna be extra targeted because you are a super brown boy and you're gonna be very tall, so you have to be on your P's and Q's at all times. Zach: Yeah, you're not wrong.Bärí: And he's so mad, because he does Kumon in addition to his regular schoolwork, and he's like, "Ugh, Mommy, I'm tired all the time," and I was like, "What do you think my life is? What do you think your daddy's life is? What do you think brown people's life is? Like, that's what it is, and like, I hate to tell you that, but you have to do more and do it faster and do it better, and you're gonna have to do it even faster and even better than your dad, because your dad gets some sort of benefit from having been, you know, a Harvard legacy, and he's light-skinned. Like, when you're light-skinned--light-skinnned [?] go farther, I'm sorry. It's true.Zach: We have yet to talk about colorism on the podcast, like, explicitly, but we need to talk about it because--Bärí: Let's talk about it. We can do it right now. [both laugh]Zach: I want to respect your time 'cause we went over, but nah, it's a global phenomenon, right? And I think, like, it goes beyond just, like, the African diaspora.Bärí: That's true. That's so true for our Indian comrades. That is very true for our Latinx comrades. Like, that's just the truth.Zach: I was in the HEB. HEB, for the folks who are not in Houston, is a huge grocer. So I was in HEB and I was getting some different, like, sauces and stuff, and I was in, like, the cultural food aisle and walked right on by some lightening cream. You know what I mean? So it's super common, and I think, like, even when you look at, like, these corporatized D&I groups, the Latinx folks are typically European--like, white-presenting, you know what I mean? Like, they're not, like--you don't see a lot of... again, it's common, but because it's so pervasive and--I don't want to say subtle, 'cause it's not subtle if you're paying attention, but it's just common, right? Like, the lighter-skinned people... it's hard to be dark and in power, you know? Bärí: Yeah, and that is for me just a personal thing that I want my son to embrace, and the reason being is, like, you know, everybody--my mom is light-skinned, and my dad was not, and they got divorced when I was three, so I don't even remember--like, I have no memory of living with them together, and so it was really my mom and her family, and everybody in her family is light-skinned and I'm the only brown person, and I was like, "What's going on here?" Yeah. But what's interesting here is my husband is light-skinned and I'm brown. Our daughter is lighter than my husband and our son is darker than me, so it's like... they don't match at all. [laughs] Zach: I love that y'all have, like, a whole kaleidoscope going though. Bärí: We do, and we actually have shirts. I have a whole shirt. Like, I need to send you one. It's real--it's ghetto. [laughs] It's a unicorn throwing money [?], and there are different shades of the unicorn, and I picked the different shades off the people in our family. So yeah, but I mean, like, get this money. Do this work. You can do it whatever shade you are. That's my point. But for him, I want him to understand there's gonna be different restrictions for you, because you're likely to walk out of here one day when you're sixteen and you're gonna be 6'6" and you're gonna be super brown, and you're really fine, and people need, you need, to be aware of the danger. And then opposite is like, "Your sister is light-skinned. She has very loose, curly hair, and so people are gonna treat her in a completely different manner and think she's fine even though she may not be, and--" Not that I'm saying she's not cute, she is, but I'm like, "You know, people--" Zach: Yeah, there's biases that come with being [?]. Yeah, there's a certain aesthetic that she could fit into that then makes it easier.Bärí: And she does, and I want to make sure that she doesn't buy into that and, you know, that's what we're dealing with her, and that's what I deal with in the book, like, how do you handle this? You have people in multiple categories. What are the proper terms? What are the issues that are around them? How do you deal with it? Like, even something as simple as the fact that I literally have never had braids or crochets or anything in my entire life, and I decided to get it last summer because I was tired of doing my hair and then my daughter's hair. And my daughter has a looser curl than I do, but her hair is thick. Like, I'm not spending three hours on a Sunday doing this, so I took her to the salon so that they could do it, and then I started getting crochets, but now she's like, "I want to go to the salon!" So now it's like, okay, now we have to reset in terms of privilege, right? Because everybody doesn't get to go to the salon. Like, my momma did my hair until I was 13, so holla at Grandma. [both laugh]Zach: So let's get back to this book, right? It's coming out March 31st. Eye-opening interviews. The goal is to help jumpstart conversations about identity, privilege and bias, y'all. The book is called Diversity in the Workplace. Listen, y'all, make sure you check it out. Right now, maybe because of that rona we might be having these conversations on Zoom or Skype. I don't--Bärí: Now, I think you're gonna be quarantined 'cause of that rona anyway, so you might as well read this while--Zach: You definitely should. You know what, why don't you challenge yourself?Bärí: And there's an audiobook version too if you don't even want to read it. Somebody can just read it to you. Zach: Come on, now. Like, challenge yourself to read the group, and then that way when you go back to work--Lord say the same, the rona won't be here forever, okay? So you eventually will have to go see people, right?Bärí: I mean, the rona won't. It will be replaced by something else.Zach: Oh, goodness. You're right though.Bärí: I mean... it's Trump, so...Zach: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] Bärí: Something else might kill us in the meantime, I don't know.Zach: Who knows? I don't know. They said they got all these locusts over in Africa. There's, like, hundreds of billions of them over there. I don't know.Bärí: I saw that too, and I was like, "What disease are they carrying?"Zach: Listen. Bärí: Okay, I'ma let that go. Zach: Shutter the thought. [laughs] So look, y'all, this has been Living Corporate. We do this, right? We have conversations. We're really excited and we're thankful--you know, all jokes aside, please make sure you're washing your hands, okay? We have information from the CDC in the show notes. You know, hopefully you're washing your hands as you listen to this podcast. Like, wash your hands, okay? Soap is important also. Now--Bärí: Very. Water is not--Zach: Water is not soap. I want to--hold on. Sound Man, put that little record scratch in here. [record scratch] Water is not soap, okay? So you want to use some--you know, use the hard, industrial stuff. Use that Irish Spring if you need to. I personally use [?] because I am bougie, but you can use--Bärí: I use Olay, but, you know, whatever.Zach: Use something that is frankly a little abrasive, okay? Get that first, like, half-layer off your skin. Like, wash your hands, y'all. And then, you know, just take care of yourself, you know? Fist bumps and head nods only. You know, this would actually be a good opportunity for allyship and learning.Bärí: Well, here's the thing. So even with the fist bumps... so with the social distancing blah-blah-blah, it's supposed to be six feet. If you bump into someone, no, you're not within the six feet.Zach: You know what, you're right, no fist bumps. So this would be a good time actually for those--Bärí: Head nod at people and wave.Zach: So we all know how to do a head nod, but this may be the time for my less-melanated folks, my aspiring allies, to learn how to effectively head nod. Don't throw your neck out of your body when you do it. Bärí: Oh, I didn't know that was a thing.Zach: Just nodding too hard, right? Like, the head nod is supposed to be subtle, nuanced. Right? Like, maybe it's a cultural thing. I feel like in the South, like, our head nod is different, and I definitely believe, between the various melanin levels, head nods can be various levels of aggression. That's all. That's all I mean. Maybe a little salute also, with two fingers at the head. Just "Hello, I see you over there." But just be careful. Take care of yourselves, and we'll get through this together. In the meantime, make sure y'all check out the links in the show notes as well for Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege and Bias written by Bärí A. Williams. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

We're thankful to be able to speak with Mentor and Mentees member Crystle Johnson as we continue with and expand on our discussion of how best to empower and advocate for black women in the workplace and why it's so important. She also talks about her exciting new job and her foundation, The Red Lip Collective!Connect with Crystle on IG and Twitter!Learn more about The Red Lip Collective! IG, TwitterTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. We actually have a very special episode, a co-branded, co-sponsored episode between Living Corporate and Mentors and Mentees. We have Crystle Johnson, a member of Mentors and Mentees, on the podcast. We're very excited to have her here today, excited to talk about her story, her journey, as we talk about supporting black women at work. Crystle, how are you doing, ma'am? Welcome to the show.Crystle: Hi, I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here.Zach: Now, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Crystle: Of course. So I'm an inclusion and belonging strategist, serial collaborator, and founder of the Red Lip Collective. I believe that our stories cultivate empathy, and empathy is the key to creating inclusive spaces where we can all belong and thrive. So a little bit about me early on in life is that I was adopted at 2 weeks old, and neither of my parents finished middle school. So from a really young age my parents did push me to do well, and they sacrificed a lot to ensure that I had the things that I needed to succeed. My mother was a CNA, and my father worked at the same company for nearly 50 years. The most memorable moment, or I would say example, of someone reaching their goals no matter what was actually my father. He had never learned to read or write well, but with perseverance and commitment he actually passed his CBL exam in his late 50s. He didn't give up no matter what, and I will really never forget that.Zach: That's incredible, and I love the fact that most of us, black or white frankly, but we can look back at someone in our life, in our family, who's had to overcome and persevere. At the same time, because of just the way that America is set up, definitely every black and brown person has some story of someone in their family who had to really overcome something pretty serious to really move forward. I know an example for me, my grandfather, he had--he could not read or write well either, but that didn't stop him from being extremely successful as an entrepreneur in the real estate business. And so it's the fact that we're able to kind of reach back and look at our family, look at our lineage, and see stories of resilience and adaptability, it helps us in our day-to-day to kind of overcome some of the challenges that we have and can help us really kind of keep things in perspective for some of the things that we think are so hard or so challenging. Like, you know what? There are people who came before us who had much bigger challenges who were able to be just as successful if not more successful, so I can do this too. So look, today we're talking about supporting black women at work. Can you talk a little bit about your professional journey? Maybe talk about when you did not feel supported at work and then also when you did feel supported at work and what it did for you.Crystle: Yes, for sure. So my career has been a whirlwind. So in 2013 I earned an MBA with an HR management focus, and over the next few years I would apply for many roles in HR, but because I didn't have any years of experience I was continuously rejected for these roles. And then somewhere along the way I learned that I shouldn't share my dreams or my aspirations, because if they left my lips they would never come to fruition. So at some point I decided to do something a little bit different. I hadn't been sharing my goals and aspirations, and I wasn't getting anywhere, so I decided to flip what I learned on its head and start sharing my goals and aspirations. One of the first people that I shared with was actually a leader at the organization I was working at at the time, and I've always been very ambitious, but he really let me know that I was too ambitious and that I needed to be a little more patient and lower my expectations. And although I accepted the feedback very respectfully from him, I had no intention of following it 100%, but what I did learn from that piece of advice is that I needed to be more patient with myself, because no one's career--most people's careers have not been linear. But a time when I really felt like I was supported was sometime after that I shared these goals with a black woman, who was a leader at that same organization, and she took some interest in me, and she supported me. She shared really practical tips of how I could gain experience, and most importantly she helped me to focus on one thing that was of importance to me, that I felt passionate about. So through those conversations with her I really narrowed down my area of focus as the area of diversity, equity, and inclusion. So not too long after that I landed my first role in this space at Bosch, which is a global engineering organization. I'm also excited to announce some breaking news about my career if you're interested in hearing it, Zach.Zach: Hold up. Breaking news? On the Living Corporate podcast? Come on, now!Crystle: So as of next week I'll actually be starting a new role with Pandora Media as the senior manager of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Whoa! That's crazy. Cue the air horns for that, whoa. That's crazy. Congratulations!Crystle: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: Who are you gonna be reporting to?Crystle: So I'll be reporting to the chief diversity officer, and I'm super excited to build on the work that Pandora has already done in this space, and if you'd like to learn more about our diversity efforts, there's recently been a post on LinkedIn, actually, about an update about diversity and inclusion at Pandora. Zach: Absolutely. So we'll make sure to get that link, put it in the show notes. That's awesome. Okay, wow. So Pandora? You know, what's really interesting too is that I know that Pandora has a podcasting platform. I know that Living Corporate--we're, like, on every platform, right? Like, we're on iHeart, Stitcher, iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, but I don't think we're on Pandora yet. We need to get over there.Crystle: Yes, absolutely. Pandora actually just launched podcasts, so it would be great to have Living Corporate added as a great addition to the list of podcasts that are there.Zach: Man. Okay, okay. So now let me--let me ask you this, 'cause I thought about this while you were talking about the fact that you met a black woman who kind of helped--not kind of, she helped. She mentored you. She gave you the advice that you needed to help kind of narrow and focus in on what you--on what you wanted to do. What was the emotional impact of seeing a black woman in a position of authority at work?Crystle: Yeah. So I would definitely say that I felt really empowered through her. So throughout my career I hadn't really ever seen very many black women in leadership. Obviously there are lots of women in leadership, but there aren't very many black women or other women of color in leadership. So she really made me feel really empowered, like I could actually do it, and that's why I have this mantra of "representation matters," because you can't be what you can't see. So being able to see myself in her really helped to propel me forward.Zach: "You can't be what you can't see." I love that. That's so true. And, you know, my experience is very similar to yours, Crystle. Like, actually, all of my bosses really, save for, like, one or two, have actually been women, but I haven't had many, if any, women of color who were my--who were my bosses or my leads or my managers in my consulting career or before consulting in industry. I never had that, and yet, you know, when I see--when I see black and brown people in positions of leadership around me, or even if I just see it in the media, I see it represented, I do--I feel more empowered. And I'm a manager now, right? But when I think about if I want to continue climbing the ladder and I want to be, like, a director, or down the road be some type of an executive, seeing people in those positions, it empowers me, right? It makes me feel like there's hope for me, like there's a reason for me to really continue to push and get this, and it makes it seem attainable. It helps me--it encourages me that it's attainable, so that's amazing. What advice would you give to those who say, "I know black women are underrepresented and undersupported, and I want to help them, but I don't really know how or where to start. I don't really know how to, you know, build a relationship or really make sure that they know I'm their friend and I'm here for them." Like, what advice would you give to folks who are in that space?Crystle: Yeah. So definitely I would say that anyone can support black or brown women at work, or women in general at work. So I actually like to call--I like to call this process the "LEO" method. So Listen is for L, E for empathize, and O for offer your support. So when you listen, you actually need to take a step back, take in what it is that the person is telling you about their career aspirations, the opportunities or obstacles that they're facing within their career. Then you need to empathize with them, so you have to realize that your experience isn't the only experience. So don't minimize what this woman has gone through within her career. Just empathize and take it all in. And then third, you want to offer your help. So don't tell her how you can help her, but really just ask the question - "How can I help you to be more successful? How can I leverage my resources?" Or "How can I be an ally for you to assist you with propelling you forward or for you to get through these barriers or obstacles that you're facing?"Zach: That's incredible. And, you know, let me--let me ask this. Yeah, let me ask this. So while it's definitely--there's definitely value in being able to ask, and I think that shares a certain level of humility, right? Because I think sometimes when you--when you don't ask people, like, "How can I support you? How can I help you?" It kind of can turn kind of like maternalistic or paternalistic, where you're treating them like they don't know what they want as if they're kids, but at the same time--at the same time I'm curious. I would challenge that we also need people who will make suggestions on how they can help us, because we don't always know what we don't know, right? Like, we don't know the doors in the rooms that we need to be in, or we don't understand the processes and stuff like that, so we also need people--I mean, you tell me what you think, but I would say that we also need people who are gonna be able to say, "Look, you don't know how to get over here, but I do. This is what I'm suggesting. This is what I think you should do." Like, do you think there's value in that too?Crystle: Yeah, I definitely think that there's value in it, and I think that you should collaborate with that woman that you're trying to assist. So I think it does work both ways, but I think coming out of the gate you should definitely ask the question - "How can I support you?" And then from there collaborate on next steps on how you can get her to the next level.Zach: 100%, absolutely. Okay. Well, this is great. The LEO method. I love this. And you can't see--you can't become what you can't see. Man, you got some gems, Crystle. I see why they got you over there at Pandora. I see you. And you finessed this thing and turned it into a promotion for Pandora, and we're not even sponsored by them. So you finessed me a couple times! This is actually pretty dope, I'm not gonna lie. I'm actually very impressed. So I know we talked about Pandora, but let's talk a little bit more about your group in 2019, and, like, what are you--what are you looking to accomplish this year? What are you excited about? What are the products that you have kind of cooking, and what would you like to--you know, what information would you like for the audience to have that they could kind of look up later after the podcast episode?Crystle: Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier in our conversation, I actually recently founded an organization by the name of The Red Lip Collective. So I founded the organization because the thought just kept pulling at my heart, because when I wear red lipstick I feel very confident. I feel fearless, and I feel empowered, and I wanted to share that same feeling with other young women of color. So the Red Lip Collective was born, and it does empower young women of color through professional development, mentoring, and through networking events. So the hope for me within this organization, that officially launches in February, is to connect young women of color who are very early on in their professional careers or just feel kind of stuck to successful mentors who are also women of color who can really give them tips and practical tricks on how to navigate their careers in Corporate America or [as an entrepreneur?].Zach: Now, where can people learn more about you? What's the information for your collective? Like, drop all of your information so we can put it in the show notes.Crystle: Yeah, definitely. So on Instagram and Twitter you can follow my personal page @CrystleSpeaks. That's C-R-Y-S-T-L-E S-P-E-A-K-S. And also on Instagram and Twitter you can follow the Red Lip Collective @TheRedLipCollective.Zach: Okay. Now, look here. We got LEO. We got you can't--I'm serious, I'm so excited about "you cannot become what you can't see." Like, that is fire to me. That might--that's gonna have to be a quote somewhere, but we got Red Lip Collective, we got Pandora. We got all types of amazing news and gems on this particular episode. I'm extremely excited about this. Before we get out of here, any final thoughts or shout-outs?Crystle: Definitely. So I'd like to shout-out everyone who has been a motivator for me in the past, who told me that I could do it even when I felt like I couldn't do it, and then also those who told me to slow down, that I was too ambitious. So those two types of people combined together are exactly what I needed to propel myself forward in my career and also in my personal life. Zach: So y'all, take notes. Notice how Crystle not only shouted out the folks who showed her love, but she also shouted out her haters too. But it was tasteful. It was tactful, right? That was crazy. Yes, so shout-out to Crystle's motivators. Motivation comes from a variety of different places. It's all about your mindset and what you do with the feedback that you're given and how you're gonna convert it into fuel. So that's amazing. Crystle, this has been a wonderful conversation. You've been listening to Living Corporate. Our Twitter is @LivingCorp_Pod. Our Instagram is @LivingCorporate. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv. We're really all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, because Australia has it locked up, and we haven't really been able to get to 'em yet. However, make sure you catch us, you check us out. This has been Zach Nunn. You have been listening to Crystle Johnson. Peace.

In our Season 1 recap episode, we discuss the lessons we've learned over the course of the season, some of our favorite episodes, our Favorite Things, AND tease a little Season 2 content that's coming your way in 2019!Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateChris Price's new EP: https://itunes.apple.com/bz/album/good-evening-ep/1436626656TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to the Season 1 wrap-up. We out here.Ade: Yeah. Yeah, we sure are. So what are we gonna talk about today?Zach: Okay, so we're gonna talk about lessons learned...Ade: Aye.Zach: Some of our favorite episodes...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughing] Okay. Favorite Things...Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay.Ade: I'm just trying to be your hype man here. Like, I really don't understand why you're taking this so hard. Let's go.Zach: It's just funny. I think maybe some of it is, like, cultural differences, right? 'Cause, like, "aye--" I don't know, "aye" is pretty common across the black diaspora.Ade: I feel like in the diaspora you say "aye," and that's, like, a cue for somebody to really--Zach: To get--to get hyper.Ade: To get hyper, yes. I wasn't--I wasn't trying to ruin the rating of our--of our show here, so.Zach: No, no, no. I mean, "aye" is cool, it's just I think--I think a southern "aye"--we can talk about this maybe another time, but I feel as if if you're in the south and you say "aye," and if you're in the--I don't know. I feel like the "ayes" mean different things. Maybe not.Ade: No, I hear you. Now that you say it, I realize that, like, "aye" can also be like, "Okay, bro. You're wilin'."Zach: Aye, yeah. Exactly. So anyway. "Aye" can also be, like, a sound of acknowledgement and appreciation, kind of like how I just did it.Ade: Right.Zach: I don't know. Black language and just--black and brown language frankly is just so deep and rich. It's really cool.Ade: I love it.Zach: Now, where were we? Oh, yes. Okay, so Favorite Things. We definitely want to give out some thank yous, right?Ade: Most definitely, most definitely.Zach: Right, right, right, and then we have a few house-cleaning administrative things that we want to talk to you about as we--as we kind of take this season break and get into season two. So with that being said, lessons learned. Ade, what are some of the--Ade: Oh, I go first?Zach: You go first. What are some of the lessons you've learned in this?Ade: Aye. Oh, they are varied, they are plenty, and some I think I'm still in the midst of learning, but I think my top three takeaways from this whole process of--you know, from ideation, which was largely you--which was mostly Zach--and coming together, building a team and growing as a collective, I think the top three things that I've learned--one is to speak up. Closed mouths do in fact never get fed. Your mouth is closed? You get no bread. See? I tried to rhyme. See? See what I did there?Zach: Bars.Ade: Something-something-something-something. But yeah, if you do not in fact speak up for yourself, and that is in every facet of your life but it's even more important in your professional spaces. If you do not speak up for yourself, if you are not your own best advocate, if you do not find yourselves in the rooms where, you know, they're making those decisions and they're making the plays that you want to be making, and if you're not actively putting yourselves in those spaces and then speaking up about what you need more to grow, what you need more to succeed, it's not--it's not gonna be a great time. A great time will not be had by all, mostly you, and the reason I think for that is because people can't read your mind. People can't help you if you are not willing to, you know, point people at the issues and the places which you could use that assistance. See what I'm saying?Zach: I so agree. I think that, you know, it's not about--and when you said, like, "Closed mouths don't get fed," it's not because there's not food there, it's just that, like, everybody else is focused on eating too. So most times, you're gonna have to open your own mouth to eat. And that whole point around just speaking up and being vocal and putting yourself into comfortable positions, putting yourself out there, is just kind of part and parcel. Like, I don't know if I've ever even seen, like, any project be successful with someone just kind of, like, waiting for everything to come to them.Ade: Right, right. What about you?Zach: I think for me the biggest--one of the biggest lessons learned is that you miss all the shots that you don't take, right? And I know that's very cliche, but it's true. We had some--we had some amazing opportunities to interview some really great guests this past season, and then also just network with a bunch of people that we didn't--that we did not interview on the show but that we shared the idea of Living Corporate with and who they were really receptive too, and we have some things coming in the future, in 2019, that we're really excited about, all because of us just putting ourselves out there. And so, you know, I'm thinking about the Lakers and, you know, LeBron, the GOAT. Yes, that's right. I said it. The GOAT.Ade: I do not disagree. At least the basketball GOAT.Zach: Okay. Yeah, no. Definitely the basketball GOAT, and he's also a super GOAT when it comes to social activism, but regardless, one of my favorite Lakers is actually Kobe, but it's not because I think he's the best Laker. I don't, but I do--what I loved about his game was the fact that he would just shoot it, man, and he would make really ill-advised shots, but his mindset was like, "Look, I'ma shoot it, and I'ma make some and I'ma miss some," and it was the--it was his lack of fear when it comes to failure, right? And I think that often times we don't really look at failure as a genuine growth and development opportunity. I think some of that is because of us as just black and brown people. Failure is not an opportunity to grow. Failure is just failure, 'cause we don't have the same privileges and access to really learn and grow from our failure. When we fail, we just fail, but I think it's important for us in this era, especially as black and brown creatives, to really embrace failing forward, and I know that Matthew Manning with Gumbo, we had him on a couple--just a couple weeks ago, he talked about that too. So yeah, that was a big one for me, and in fact--hold on. Let me not--let me not forget this. We actually got some questions in that I think would be good for us to put in our lessons in this Lessons Learned section from--Ade: Really?Zach: Yeah, from social media. We've got some people to ask us some questions.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone said, "What is your biggest takeaway from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate?" So I feel like we can kind of roll that into a Lessons Learned. What was one of your biggest takeaways from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate this season, Ade?Ade: Ooh. There were some amazing ones actually, and I think it's kind of like an aggregate of thoughts, but ultimately it's that you need to be intentional about your career, and I think there's a common thread that kind of ties all of these thoughts together, and I think it is that you need to be intentional. And that is not to say--well, first I want to address--before I get too distracted about answering that question I do want to address something. You were talking about the Kobe Bryant shots. We are not saying you should make ill-advised shots in your career. Don't take risks--don't let your mouth write a check that your skills cannot cash.Zach: Amen. Thank you, yes. Good cleanup on that, yes.Ade: Yeah. Like, don't get up there somewhere and be like, "Yeah, I can totally stand up this project in a week, because Living Corporate told me that I can, and I should say wild things at work." Don't do that. Do not do that, but we are saying that, especially for women, especially for black and brown women, you are so much more qualified than you give yourself credit for, and part of life is in taking the risk. If you are always prepping to be perfect, you are never, ever, ever going to take the shot. So yeah, that's take #1 in response to that. Take #2 I think is to be intentional. Part of being able to take those risks is in knowing that you've done the prep work, right? So I can't just walk in to anybody's office today and be like, "I want to be your CTO." They'll be like, "Who let this person in?" And also, "How quickly can you let her back out?" Not because they want to be cruel, but because they're being realistic.Zach: Yeah, but you're not ready.Ade: Correct, but I do know that in 20 years I am going to be somebody's CTO because I am going to be making all of the steps that I need. Or maybe CEO. We'll see.Zach: Straight up. Speak it. No, real talk.Ade: But the point is that you make all of the decisions now, you prep now, you put all of your ducks in a row essentially so that your life doesn't just happen to you, so that your career doesn't just happen to you. Many of the most successful people that I know made very intentional decisions. Like, for example--I'm gonna use my partner as an example, and I hope she doesn't get mad at me, but by our bedside table she has this framed "What do you want to be when you grow up?" sort of fill in the blanks paper, and on there she has--I think this is from when she was in fourth or fifth grade, and on there she said she wants to be a lawyer like Thurgood Marshall or Johnnie Cochran, and she ordered her steps in such a way that she ended up going to Howard University and University of Laverne, both of which were universities that both of those people attended, right? So it wasn't just that you make decisions about your life and then hope that it happens to you, it's that you work. You put in the effort. You put in all of the time and energy required to get you to those places, and yes, you will of course succeed. Well, God willing, and hopefully capitalism doesn't get in your way, but you succeed because you've thought your life through, you've thought your career through, you've thought your path through, and if what you're looking for is an escape plan, you've thought that through as well so that you're not suffering on the other side of it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and, you know, to your point, it definitely was oversimplification with the Kobe analogy and--like, that was a really, really good cleanup, Shaq. That was great because you--yes.Ade: You're totally welcome.Zach: No, it was--no, it was dope. Because it's funny, in saying that what we also dismiss or rather what we ignore or underplay in that shooting our shot with getting some of the guests that we were able to get, and we're just more than honored and excited about the guests that we have for y'all for season two, is the fact that we spent hours upon hours and weeks upon weeks as a team in really, like, clarifying our mission, our purpose, getting our branding together, our language, the logo work. Like, there was a lot, and there is a lot that goes behind this very, you know, perhaps to a lot of y'all just, like, very simple, like, straight-forward show and concept, and it took time to, like, really build those things, and so there was a lot of preparation that went into it. So before I put an email together to send to DeRay or Beto O'Rourke or J Prince or, you know, a CEO or whoever it may be, there was a lot of things that we had that we could stand on to justify why I'm in this person's inbox or why I'm in this person's DMs. Now I'm gonna sound like I'm actually a Kobe stan, and I'm really not, but really to kind of go back to my initial analogy, Kobe didn't just show up at the game and just shoot those to us seemingly crazy shots. Like, he put up thousands of shots before and after every game, and in practice he's shooting thousands of these shots. He's practicing these shots. So when it's game time, literally when it's game time, and he pulls up a fadeaway over, like, three people, like, to us it looks like he just randomly threw it up, but no, like, he's been practicing that, and so--and actually, kind of to answer the question--kind of to go back to what you were talking about and kind of answering this question that was submitted to us, one of the biggest things I learned from our guests was that a lot of times we'll see--like, we see the glory, but we don't know the story, right? So, like, we see people who are like, "Man--oh, I work with HBO." Like, we spoke with Emily Miethner, who is the CEO of FindSpark, and she was like, "Yeah, we had a partnership," and she named all of these huge brands, but, like, if you just dig, like, a second deeper, you'll find out she's been doing this for, like, a decade. Like, FindSpark is blowing up now, but it's been years in the making of her building this. The same thing like when you talk to Janet Pope, who's the leader of diversity and inclusion and social responsibility for Capgemini, which is a global consulting firm--you know, you'll talk to her. You may see her in France or see her all around the world doing some really fancy stuff, but, like, her career is 12 years in the making, right? There's a lot of work that goes behind that. So yeah, no, for sure on that. We have another question. The next question, which I think is a really good one, is...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm sorry. That's like my go-to. I don't even think about it. It just, like--the "aye" is from--it's from my soul. It, like, spawns directly from...Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. It's good. I like it. So "What is in store for the next season and when can we expect you back?"Ade: Oh, wow. I mean, listen to this episode. Listen all the way to the end. You'll have some answers by the time the episode ends.Zach: For sure. No, for sure. Definitely listen to this episode, listen to it all the way to the end. Don't fast forward to the end 'cause, like, we kind of need the clicks. Like, we definitely want the download data, but, I mean, if you want to fast forward to the end, I mean, I'm not mad at you, but...Ade: And also it hurts my feelings when people skip past me, so.Zach: Who skips past--who skips past you?Ade: Well--so I'm a small person. Okay, [inaudible]--Zach: Oh, I see. Go ahead.Ade: Ooh.Zach: [laughs] No, it's just that it came together quickly when you said that. You were saying literally.Ade: No, no, no. You agreed to that way too quickly. Now I kind of want to fight. What? Wow.Zach: [laughs] Go ahead with your story. Go ahead. I'm listening.Ade: Okay. So I was at a bar, and I ordered a whiskey ginger. I think I actually ordered a Manhattan. No, an old-fashioned. Whatever. A whiskey-based drink, as is my custom, and the bartender just kept giving my drink to other people. I'm, like, watching him, and he walks past me, walks past me again with my drink, 'cause I saw him make it. It was a whiskey ginger. And then he just walks to one end of the bar, gives a person my drink. The first time it happened I was like, "Hm. Maybe--I don't know. Maybe they also ordered a whiskey ginger," but it happened, like, three times. Three. So I essentially was like, "All right, look. I will climb over this bar and fight you if necessary, but I'm gonna need my drink."Zach: Goodness.Ade: So I, like, start jumping up and waving at him, and he's like, "Oh, I didn't see you there." What? What?Zach: Come on. [laughs]Ade: What?Zach: No, no, no. But, like, real talk though. Like, size privilege is a thing, right? Like, there are certain privileges that come from being tall and from being thin. There's certain privileges, you know what I mean?Ade: You know there is. Absolutely.Zach: So that's real. Like, that's super real, and I can say that, like, this is an opportunity for me to practice empathy and not sympathy, 'cause I can't really relate to that.Ade: [laughs]Zach: Right? I can't, 'cause I'm always seen, you know what I mean? Like, you're not gonna not see me. Even if you try to--let's say, you know, you're trying to practice micro-aggressions and act like I'm not there. Like, you're not--like, you can't. You'll look silly. Like, I'ma get in your way. You're gonna have to acknowledge me. So that's real, but no, I was just curious. I mean, I would say that more than a few people have pulled me aside and been like, "Hey, your co-host is great." Like, [inaudible], so I didn't know what you meant about getting passed over.Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs] Yo, so this is what we're gonna do for season two. I'ma tell you what's coming up in season two, it's making me taking that "aye" as a sound bite and putting it on that soundboard, and we'll just play that.Ade: I am tired of [inaudible].Zach: It's ridiculous. Okay. So yeah, definitely listen. We're gonna talk a little bit about season two at the end and what's coming up just after this episode, 'cause we have some things happening after this season one wrap-up episode.Ade: Sure are.Zach: Yep, but what I--what I will say is, you know, please in season two expect--I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say a bit more personality 'cause I do feel as if we showed our personality a lot in season one, but, you know, it was our first season. Like, we're learning our platform. Ade and I did not know each other before we started Living Corporate, so we're certainly learning and growing as just friends in our relationship, so expect more of that, and also expect even more courageous and, like, really intentional content around underrepresented individuals and people groups in Corporate America. Like, I'll even give you an example.Ade: You are giving away the whole ending of the show.Zach: I know. Let me just--I'ma hold off on it, but we have some really great, like, topics that I'm really excited about because the point of this space is to have real talk in a corporate world, right? Like, corporate spaces. Even when you talk about inclusion and diversity, like, it's always masked with, like, other things, right? So, like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, diversity of--I'm like, "Can we be honest?" Like, "Can we just have an honest conversation about, like, intersectionality and how race and gender specifically play a role in shaping the entire planet," right? Like, can we just talk about it from a really honest and genuine perspective? Like, that's our goal. So just expect more of that in season two. When you can expect us back? You can expect us back--you can expect us back, man. We'll talk about that at the end of this episode, but you can expect us back. And maybe I'll drop a--maybe I'll drop a hint.Ade: Oh, we're doing hints now?Zach: I have a dream that you can expect us back soon.Ade: You can't be trusted with no secrets, man. Like, I just want you to know that right now.Zach: [laughs] Okay. All right, all right, all right. Let's see here now. We have one more question. Here we go. "How does one successfully transition out of the corporate world?" This is a good question, and I--you know, I'ma say this. I don't think it's fair for you and I to take this episode to try to walk through and, like, rehash some really great content that Matthew Manning of Gumbo Media and Nick Bailey of Black Texas Magazine have really done a great job at, like, expounding upon when it comes to starting a startup, transitioning from your full-time job and pursuing your dreams, like, wholeheartedly. And also Fenorris Pearson. Like, our first episode, right? He talked about transitioning out of the corporate world and getting into more non-profit work, right? So I think that there are some great episodes, and, like, this is not, like, an excuse, my back answer. Like, we definitely appreciate the question, but my biggest advice would be to go back and run those episodes back AND to look at the show notes because you have the contact information for those people, and I know who sent this question in, so I will actually circle back with them directly. And we'll make sure to--we'll put these questions and the answers, like, within the show notes within this episode, but there have been some really great episodes that we've had around that. What do you think about that question, Ade?Ade: I think, for one, we had so many amazing episodes that I connected to, that are literally just playing in the back of my head whenever I am in situations at work, that help essentially edify me, I think is the term that I'm trying to use. I'm not trying to go to church, but my top three though would have to be the mental health episode because, for all intents and purposes, I laughed my way through that episode and also connected really deeply with so many of the themes. Like, yes you want to hustle, yes you want to grind, but there's nothing to grind for if you lose your mental health in exchange for being in these spaces. And yes, these spaces often--these corporate spaces often do not have you in mind. They didn't have you in mind when they were formulating those spaces, and so now your existence in those spaces is very much revolutionary, and that said, you will often have to carry the burden of being the only, or even worse the only of onlys, in those corporate spaces, and so it 1. made me feel a lot less alone and 2. gave me a lot of very actionable advice, and so that was appreciated. Honorable mention goes to my conversation--it was a B-Side, not an episode, so I couldn't include it, but my conversation with Christa Clarke where we kind of built on that idea of what self-care looks like in corporate spaces. I think she's the first person that--maybe not the first person that I know, but the first person who was just so open about, "Yeah, I took a pay cut because it was what was best for me personally," and she's doing something that makes her happy. She has a creative space. She has everything essentially that you need to have a happy life without the stress, and so she's inspirational, and I'm still waiting to have cocktails with her. Last two. I think the Let Me In conversation with TJ, because--Zach: That was a good one, yeah.Ade: Yeah. You know, in real-time seeing someone who did precisely what I want to do with resources and having the conversations that I needed, and in a lot of ways he was inspirational because he decided he was gonna do this for the kids, you know? He was very much like, "I want to give back to my community, and this is the way that I've identified would benefit my community, but I'm not there yet," and so he took it upon himself to better himself because he knew--he (treated?) himself as a meaningful part of a whole, not necessarily making that career pivot just for himself, which was just a delight to hear. And I think the last one in my top three is Janet Pope. And again, we've had a lot of really amazing episodes, but these three spoke to me. Like, they met me where I was at sort of thing, and, you know, each and every single one of those conversations really came at a really pivotal time for me and a really important time because, for example, the conversation with TJ, it was at a time where I was particularly stressed and thinking, "You know what? Maybe tech isn't for me. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. Maybe I'm just not good enough." I was really struggling at my former place of employment, and it didn't feel like I was doing any meaningful work, and it felt like I was around places that were just becoming toxic for me, and so it was just really, really good to get these reminders, like, "Hey, it's not in your head, but you can do something about it." Like, these systems exist outside of your control, but here's your locus of control. Here's your internal--you can do this work, and having people who have done the work, who are able to distill the vastness of their experiences into "This is what I did. You can do it too," was priceless for me.Zach: Those were really good choices.Ade: Thank you.Zach: So yeah, you can definitely count B-Sides. Like, B-Sides, they're episodes, so let's make sure we count those. So after I finish mine, if you have some extras that you want to throw in there, please feel free. So favorite episodes. So the first one that sticks out to me has to be Preston Mitchum's B-Side, right? Because it was so unapologetic. Preston Mitchum, he was talking about LGBTQ identity, he was talking about pro-blackness and, like, what that looks like practically in the workplace and as someone who's in a highly political area. He lives in D.C. He's a lawyer. He's an educator. He's an activist. So that one--that one was great.Ade: Yep. All facts, no cap.Zach: All facts, no cap. Listen--so side note, shout out to all these new slang words. I realize that I'm old now 'cause I--my generation as millennials, like older millennials, right? So I'm saying older millennials. I'm 29. We don't come up with all of the dances anymore, and we don't come up with all of the slang, so no cap--Ade: Can I just say something real quick?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: The first time I heard "no cap" I thought they were talking about Captain America, and I was mad confused because I genuinely just didn't get why they were bringing up Captain America in a conversation that had nothing to do with Captain America. I was just kind of like, "Uh..."Zach: "What is "no cap?"" Right? No, I was confused, so I was like, "What is "no cap?"" So "no cap." "Say less" is also hot in these streets, "say less," and then also I've heard of tick. Like, "You got tick." Like, "You got juice," or sauce or influence. You have tick. So that was a new--Ade: You have what?Zach: Tick. Tick. Chance the Rapper--Ade: Like the animals?Zach: Yeah. Like the bug, yeah. It's like the pest. Tick.Ade: Oh, no. I just--there's some things I just can't get with, and that's gonna have to be one of them.Zach: Tick is--yeah, tick is hot in these Chicago and Midwestern streets supposedly, so...Ade: Well, keep them Chicago and Midwest streets [inaudible] because...Zach: Is it not popping in the DMV?Ade: Not only is it cold, y'all not--what? Tick? Nah, that don't even make no sense. Like, what?Zach: [laughs] Goodness gracious. So yeah, so "no cap." [laughing] Going back to the podcast favs. So yes, Preston, and another one was Effective Allyship with Amy C. Waninger. That one was great.Ade: Aye.Zach: Around the same thoughts, because Amy being a white woman, and very white, right? And, like, we talked about that on the episode, 'cause the topic was effective allyship, and she talks about effective--like, she is a very white woman in a very white space, and just her just unapologetic tone around the reality of race and gender and intersectionality, really important. I would have to piggyback on one of your answers though. The Janet Pope episode was very good. I really, really enjoyed that one, and I was excited because I was not on the episode, and I was able just to listen and hear about y'all's journey, hear about just perspectives that I don't--I don't consider, and the fact that it was three black women talking too, which I was really excited and thankful for. Oh, okay, and then so a B-Side was--Latricia and I did an episode on Botham Jean, the man who was murdered by the police in his own home, and I liked that episode because it was not in any way, like, in alignment with our formula at all. Like, it was a--it was very much so, like, a--I don't want to say pop culture, but it was a current events-type episode, and that was probably, like, the maddest y'all will ever hear me on this podcast. Let me not say it. Well, hopefully it will be the maddest you ever hear me, but it was just very frank, and actually, people at my current place of employment heard the episode and reached out to me about it, like, in a very positive and encouraging way, and it helped me extend my network somehow, which was, like, an affirmation that, like, speaking truth to power is, to me, always the right thing to do. Like, you'll never go wrong in that. Like, how you speak truth to power and your method may adjust, but you doing it is not wrong. So that's three. I really enjoyed--I really enjoyed the episode with Deborah Owens about the self-advocacy, strategic networking and self-advocacy, when she was like, "You don't have a career."Ade: Oh, wow. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Zach: [laughing] "I don't want to do anything to mess up my career." "Sis, you don't have a career here." Boy. Goodness.Ade: Oof. A drag.Zach: No, it was--it was very funny, and then my fifth spot is kind of actually a tie between two. One is an episode where you kept on saying the person was tugging on your wig, which was the Professional Reinvention episode with my dad, Edward Nunn. That was pretty good. I liked that episode. It was tied with the B-Side for Professional Reinvention with Angela Shaw, and she's an HR business partner, public speaker, and she's the Austin Human Resource Management Association president, right? And so I really enjoyed--really enjoyed those episodes, but, you know--I don't even want to say honorable mention. I have a ton of others. The J Prince episode, even though it scared the mess out of me, was great. That was terrifying.Ade: [laughing] I remember you talking about that episode. You were freaking out.Zach: I was freaking out. And listen, let me tell you something, y'all. Y'all go back and run that episode back. That was the shortest episode in Living Corporate history. It was very short. I think it was, like, nine minutes. And then of course the DeRay Mckesson episode was phenomenal. I enjoyed that, even though the signal was bad. I appreciate the fact that he took the time to join, and he was really cool, so. You know what time it is? We didn't have it on our last episode, so now we're gonna get into Favorite Things. And this is the last Favorite Things for season one. So, you know, Ade, you typically have, like, seven favorite things. Feel free to drop as many more--Ade: Wow. You are so disrespectful. I just--I want you to know that it is on sight for you.Zach: [laughing] This is the thing. We've got to stop using--we've got to stop using phrases from the early 2000s and late '90s that don't mean what they mean anymore. "On sight" don't mean--Ade: That is what it means.Zach: "On sight," but you don't see anybody anymore, right? Technology is in the way. Now "on sight" don't mean that. "On sight" means that when I see you're green, when you're available on Facebook, it's a problem, you know what I mean? [laughing] Like, we don't see each other like that no more. It's just technology.Ade: [inaudible]. I just want you to know that the way my spirit is moving...Zach: You're moving--you're moving in early 2000s "on sight," that's what you're saying.Ade: The energy that I retain is of DMX fame, and I just want you to know that the minute you step off your plane...Zach: And come to D.C.? It's on sight?Ade: And land in...Zach: And put my two feet on the--Ade: You don't even gotta put both feet.Zach: I'll put one toe, one toe on D.C. ground.Ade: A toenail.Zach: A toenail. It's on sight.Ade: In any of the surrounding zip codes where I reside.Zach: Goodness. In the D, the M, or the V.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: Understood, I appreciate that.Ade: All right, [inaudible]?Zach: All right.Ade: So glad we understand each other.Zach: Great. [laughs]Ade: You're ridiculous. I can't stand you. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Oh, goodness gracious. So yes, please, Ade, commence with your cavalcade of Favorite Things.Ade: I--oh, my God. I can't keep saying that I want to fight you, but I do want to fight you. All right. Okay. So my Favorite Things--I actually don't want to go with books, and here's why I don't want to go with books. We have a list of books, and I would actually love to see if we could, like, get some listener feedback on their favorite books, but we said favorite THINGS, so I don't know. I feel like we should expand our repertoire a bit. So I have three, because I always have a lot. I'm very indecisive in that way. Top favorite thing is goat meat pepper soup.Zach: Oh, that sounds good.Ade: I am making some at the moment, and my house smells like peace, joy, and happiness, and so yeah. I'm partial, but goat meat pepper soup is the GOAT.Zach: Aye.Ade: You see what I did there? You see--you see what I did? You see?Zach: That was clever. Yeah, that was good. [laughs]Ade: And you should try goat meat pepper soup with some rice noodles. It's a delight. It's a delight. I just want to say that. Next favorite thing is Rent the Runway. Now, before I get any judgment from anybody, I just want to say I'm not gonna spend $8,000 on an Oscar de la Renta dress, but I do like Oscar de la Renta's dresses, so I'll spend $300 on renting one. Bloop. That's all I've got to say about that.Zach: Understood.Ade: Thank you for appreciating me, friend. And I think my final thing that I want to just shout out is contact lenses. Now, I just want to wax poetic for a second about contact lenses, 'cause I don't know if everybody knows, but my eyes are purely decorative. Without glasses or contacts, I can't see a thing. I literally see the world like those super out of light--out of focus lights that you see in the distance in Christmas. That's my life when I don't have any glasses or contacts on, and I just want to shout out to God for working way harder than Satan, because I can't tell you the number of bruises I've gotten just because, like, my eyes didn't see fit to notice that there was a corner there.Zach: [laughs] Man, that's real though.Ade: Or how many times I have just busted my whole behind because I didn't have contacts or glasses and missed, you know, the final three rows of stairs.Zach: Yo, that's the--that's the thing. When you miss, like, those steps, like, just one or two, you feel like--like, your life flashes before your eyes. Like, you feel you're about to die.Ade: Listen. Have you ever fallen up stairs?Zach: Trust--have I? Yes, most certainly.Ade: 1. I am disturbed to find that we are united in that experience...Zach: Most certainly.Ade: But also 2., and more importantly--oh, shoot. One second. Also, more importantly, how is it that we've managed to fall UP stairs? Like, I feel like we need to speak to somebody about this.Zach: I don't know. That's the thing though. It's us and, like, millions of other people. Like, plenty of people fall up the stairs. Like, honestly, the internet has brought of course a variety of great things, and one of the best things for me is that it really has helped me feel more comfortable in the fact that I'm a klutz. I'm really clumsy. That's why when I--that's why when I go out places, I don't even be moving around that much. I find, like, one little place to be and I kind of park there, because I know the minute that I move I'ma knock something over, I'ma bump into somebody, I'ma trip.Ade: You know what? That's a really good plan, because I certainly am gonna need something. Something, something. Maybe, like, you know, that bubble. Not, like, because I'm immuno-compromised but because, like, otherwise I'm gonna bump into everything and hurt myself. So yeah, things that you've learned about me today. I'm extremely clumsy.Zach: Most of my friends, close members in my family are very clumsy. Just clumsy. Just clumsy people, and I don't know what that's about. I've heard that there's some tie-in to people being clumsy and being intelligent though. Believe it or not I have, but, you know, that could just be junk science. You know, fake news. Who knows? Okay, so those are your Favorite Things. Hm. So my Favorite Things for the season, as our last entry into Favorite Things--I also will not do books. I too will do Things.Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. So my first Favorite Thing has to be the music that my brother-in-law Chris Price has dropped. He actually dropped an EP, and actually you should be hearing that in the background right now. It's just dope music, and I enjoy it because it's just jazz. Like, it's light jazz via piano, and what I like about it is--so beyond, like, the music itself, which I definitely listen to. It's good study music. It's good just kind of relax music. What I really like about it, the reason why it's a Favorite Thing--Ade: (Aye?) I've really got to stop saying that. It's driving me nuts now.Zach: See? Exactly, but it's cool. It's cool, 'cause I'ma run this back, I'ma cut out that little A, and I'm gonna make that--'cause we have a soundboard for season two. I'm gonna be like--it's gonna be "aye-aye-aye-aye." We're gonna just play it to death.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: That and the air horns. That's gonna be season two sound effects staples. Okay, so anyway, back to this. So what excites me and why it's a Favorite Thing is not just because it's good music, it's because any time I see someone, like, pursue their dream or pursue something and, like, really execute upon something that they have been thinking about or, like, a passion of theirs or something they find really interesting--that excites me, right? So that's why it's a Favorite Thing. So the music that you're hearing, we'll have the information in the show description so you can check it out yourself. Make sure you check it out on iTunes and everywhere that streams music. So that's one. The second thing that's my Favorite Thing has to be, and I'm just gonna come out and say it. I'm gonna come out and say it, man. Vaseline. So Vasel--Ade: What?Zach: Yeah, Vaseline. Like, Vaseline, especially in the melanated community, I think is greatly underused, right? So, you know, we don't talk about it enough, but I'ma talk about it - ashy. Ashiness, okay? So ashiness being the predominance of dry skin or a lack of moisture in your skin, and I think a lot of times--I think big lotion, the big lotion industry if I may, has deluded us into thinking that these very watery lotions are satisfactory for our skin, right? But you've got to realize, like, we don't live in a world that caters to blackness or brownness or anything like that. We live in a world where we are not the default. So that watery lotion, that hotel-level lotion, is not gonna cut it for us, and so I think that Vaseline, petroleum, Vaseline, is a great thing. It's a Favorite Thing of mine. Vaseline has never let me down. It is very cold in Dallas and in Houston--Ade: All of the shea butter in the world though.Zach: Shea butter also. So let me--let me actually amend that. Shea butter, cocoa butter, and Vaseline. And I guess--so under the umbrella of thicker moisture risers and moisture retainers, and it's really--Ade: I'm here to educate you. So shea butter and Vaseline and all of those things, they're not going to moisturize your skin. They're going to lock in moisture.Zach: That's what I said--but I said that--remember when I said [inaudible]--Ade: You said moisturizes first.Zach: Okay, fine, but then I said--Ade: I heard you though.Zach: Okay, cool, but then I said retain--Ade: Okay, but I heard you though.Zach: I said retain too though.Ade: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] They retain the moisture, right? So anyway, it's just important, man. I think, you know, a lot of y'all have--you know, a few folks have come in and emailed us about career advice and how do you do this and how do you do this. Let me tell you something. One thing you can do, anybody can do right now, is be less ashy. That is gonna help you in your career, no matter what you're trying to do.Ade: Um, sir? What?Zach: And so--[laughs] Like, no, really though. Really though, name one person that you've seen on television that's a person of color who's ashy? Malala is always--Malala? She's always moisturized. Michelle Obama? She looks moisturized to death. Her everything. There's not one dry bone on her body. Barack Obama? Same way. Idris Elba? Come on. Like, come on. Like, we know this. Oprah? Oprah never goes out ashy. We need to do--we need to do better so that Nivea--that's right, I'm coming at y'all, Nivea--all these other watery, water-based lotions, they're not for us, y'all. That's right, I'm talking to us right now. That's right. So that's--and look, that's just number two. I got one more. I got one more. Oh, Murray's Hair Grease also goes in that Favorite Things. I'm talking about thick pomades and lotions.Ade: Okay. You know what, sir? I'm gonna send you some shea butter because I can't listen to you crackle and pop over there anymore.Zach: [laughs] I don't crackle and--Ade: Don't claim you're not snapping.Zach: I don't crackle and pop. I don't crackle and pop because I use cocoa butter, shea butter, Murray's, and Vaseline.Ade: In that order?Zach: No, I just those thick--they're thick agents. That's what I use.Ade: I just...Zach: What if I start off by saying my Favorite Thing is thick agents? People will be like, "What are you talking about?"Ade: Okay, almost every time you've said "thick" so far you've said "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick," and sir, I'm very concerned about--about you.Zach: Thick agents. I didn't say--I didn't say "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick."Ade: No, no, no. You're right. You're totally correct. I understand and [inaudible].Zach: Thick agents. Cool. So that's two. Shout out to thick agents of moisture retention. That is my second Favorite Thing, then my third Favorite Thing--my third Favorite Thing is actually going to have to go a GroupMe called Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah, yeah.Ade: You keep that one in. Shout out to BIC.Zach: Shout out to BIC, which is thick with black consultants. How about that?Ade: [sighs]Zach: No?Ade: No.Zach: Okay. Well--JJ, keep it in. Keep it in. Don't take this out. [laughs] So no, really though, I love Blacks In Consulting GroupMe because it's--you know, the numbers, they wax and wane, but they are always well over 5 to 600 people, always, and it's all--it's what it is. It's black folks in consulting, and we share--we have venting sessions, we share knowledge, we share resources. It's a place of affirmation and familiarity, and so it's great. It's really exciting just to be in that space, and it was through Blacks In Consulting that I met the Living Corporate--the people that would eventually comprise the Living Corporate team, and so just shout out to them and shout out to my favorite--that's one of my Favorite Things. My Favorite Thing--so it is the GroupMe, but I guess from a conceptual level it's more about the idea of like-minded people grouping together, not to exclude others, not to rise up against other people or anything like that, but in the name of just being collaborative and practicing a certain level of community along very genuine lines, and I think, you know, it's--you know what I mean? Like, to me that's a beautiful thing. And yeah, we're in there. We'll joke and we'll have fun and stuff like that, but, like, there are genuine moments of collaboration and just affirmation. So those are my Favorite Things. Those are my Favorite Things. Okay, so--Ade: And just to add to loving on BIC real quick, it's been a space where I got career advice, I got--I mean, I got to meet you, Zach, but I also got to meet some really amazing people. I got interview advice, and I found some [inaudible] partners. Not only is it a well-rounded group, but it's super effective, and it's a really great way or it has been a really great way to meet young professionals like myself, and I'm very, very grateful for that space, and you guys should definitely look for Blacks In Consulting and other projects that's coming out of that group.Zach: Ooh, yeah. That's a good point too, yeah. We don't want to give away the sauce, but definitely. In 2019, keep your eyes peeled for Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye. Okay, I need--I need a new catchphrase. Dear God, I'm so tired of "aye."Zach: Well, the first step is awareness, right? So we can--we can workshop some new phrases in 2019. Like, we have plenty of time, and--Ade: No, no, no. Today. We're working new phrases today because every time I hear it come out of my mouth I'm just kind of like, "A what? B? Can you go with another letter? I don't know, Sis. Something." I'm dragging my own self over, like, verbal cues.Zach: [laughs] You've said it like 20 or 30 times this episode. It's okay.Ade: 20 or 30? Oh, my God.Zach: [laughs] Slight exaggeration there. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. So now we're gonna get into Thank Yous, thank yous. What thank yous do you have?Ade: Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind. Okay, tell me you know where that came from.Zach: You said, "Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind."Ade: Yes.Zach: Man, I'm drawing a blank. [inaudible].Ade: [gasps]Zach: You're gonna say it and I'm gonna be like, "Duh." Who? Not Jay-Z. Who?Ade: Yes, Jay-Z. Numb/Encore with Linkin Park.Zach: Okay, cool. My word. Yo. Man, first of all...Ade: [sighs] You disappoint me.Zach: No, no, no. It's crazy that you bring that up because I was just thinking about the Black Album yesterday. I was listening to an episode of The Evening Jones with Bomani Jones, and he was talking--somebody asked, like, "Is the Black Album a classic?" And I was like, "Yes."Ade: Uh, duh.Zach: Like, the Black Album dropped when I was 14. Man, let me tell you, [inaudible]--Ade: When you were how old?Zach: I was 14. I was in eighth grade, yeah.Ade: Oh, boy.Zach: And it's funny, right? Age is--age is not relative in that, like--I mean, come on. Like, they're distinct numbers, but what you think is old and young is relative to the person, right? So on The Right Time, most of the people there were, like, in their--they were older. They're, like, in their thirties and their, you know, maybe early forties, and they're talking about, "Yeah, I remember when I was in high school listening to the Black Album." "I remember when I was just graduating high school and getting into college listening to the Black Album," and [inaudible] I know I shared. I was like, "Man, I was, like, 13, 14 when the Black Album dropped." I think I was 13 actually. And everybody was like, "Dang, you were young," and then you're like, "Nah, I'm old." Like, 'cause how old were you? You were like, what, 9? 10?Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: Yeah, you were mad young, right? So anyway--Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, we're getting to our Thank Yous. Ade, would you like to go first or would you like me to go first?Ade: You go first.Zach: Okay. So first off, a major thank you goes to my wife Candice, who was more than encouraging for me just to get all of this stuff going and getting it kicked off. Like, this was a big deal in just our home because this takes time and energy away from other things, and money of course, right? Just to kind of get things going and getting started. So definitely thank yous to her and just my family, just all the support. My mom, my parents of course, and then my mother and father-in-law for sure. Very encouraging, very supportive in everything that I do, and they're just--they're just great. Like, they're great. So that's just starting with just family and just close--and I'll throw close friends in there too. And then thank yous also go to all of the guests for season one. Like, people responded to us with such excitement to be on the show. Like, we did not have to really beg a lot of people. That was crazy to me. So thank yous to everybody that was a guest. Special shout outs to George Okpamen, who has been super supportive and just over the top--Ade: Sure has.Zach: Right? Very supportive. Amy C. Waninger, who always retweets things. Kyle Mosely. Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. That was actually another favorite episode too, Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. Super cool. Very White Guy. I mean, the list goes on and on, literally every single guest. J Prince too. Just people who are willing just to be on our platform and just be a part. Like, it's amazing. Other thank yous go of course to Sound Man, AKA JJ. JJ, man, please give yourself a round of applause real quick-like please.Ade: Seriously?Zach: 'Cause man, you've been just super instrumental in getting all of these things together. I mean, between the full episodes and the B-Sides and the--I mean, it's crazy. And another thank you goes to actually someone who's very behind the scenes but is super instrumental to everything we do is Aaron. So Aaron is our admin, and so, you know, someone--so someone pulled me aside one time and they were like, you know, "So where are the white guys? Where are the white guys?" Like, "Why are you excluding the white people?" So first of all, we do not exclude white people. We've had white people on Living Corporate, okay, as guests, and Aaron, who's on the team, is white. So there, okay?Ade: You just totally pulled the "we have a white friend" card, and I want you to know that I'm about 30 seconds away from laughing [inaudible].Zach: [laughing] But we don't just have a white friend. We have white friendS, right? We've got Drew.Ade: Plural.Zach: Plural. We have Drew. We have Amy. We have Aaron. Okay?Ade: Okay, I'm gonna need you to not list all of the white people who like us. Thank you.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm not doing this with you, sir. [laughs]Zach: Here's the thing. See, look. It's so funny, right? 'Cause I was about to get defensive and name, like, two more white people, but then it's--like, that's kind of proving your point. But no, in all seriousness, right, like, I just want to thank Aaron. He certainly is our forced diversity hire. The government, the radical left, came and made us hire somebody white, and so that's where we are. [laughs]Ade: [sighs] All right. When we get kicked off of Apple Podcasts, I will just point to this moment.Zach: You know that's what people think though. They think, like--they think, like, the government goes into companies like, "You have to hire--"Ade: Certainly.Zach: You know? It's just ridiculous. So of course we [inaudible]--Ade: But also just point to this second in time. Like, I'm not mad at it. You are spitting facts, however...Zach: The loony left! Nah, but in all seriousness, Aaron is great, and he's been doing wonderful work. And then last but not least, I want to thank the people who are still kind of, like, on the periph--who started off, like, really closely in Living Corporate but now they're kind of more so on the periphery or doing other things, and that's Latricia, Ade--I'm about to say Ade. Latricia, Ola, and Parin, and Hannah. So all of them have had, like, very critical and instrumental parts of Living Corporate and just getting started and us kind of, like, getting some frameworks recognized and developed, and we've been able to continue to move forward, so I want to thank them. And then lastly--I know I said lastly before, but lastly I want to thank Sheneisha White, and she's actually our researcher, and so you'll hear more about her in season two, but yeah. And I'm sure I've missed somebody, but I don't think so. So yeah, those are my Thank Yous.Ade: Those were great, and exhaustive, so I don't have too much more--Zach: Oh, okay. [laughs]Ade: Look. Listen, you did it. I appreciate you taking point on that because I know I would've forgotten somebody that was super integral, and then I'd feel bad for the rest of all my days, so thank you for sparing me the guilt. Personally, I would like to thank my partner, my friends, my family. I feel like I'm at an award show and I should've prepped a speech, but in lieu of that I do want to say my deep, heartfelt thanks to, you know, everybody who has supported this endeavor, everybody who has given us feedback, who has--I'm gonna shout out my friends [inaudible] and [inaudible] just championing and really supporting in ways that I didn't even expect. I didn't expect my friends--in a lot of ways, they were the very first to recognize, "Hey, this is a really dope thing, and you guys should keep doing it." Not only was that useful for us and helpful for us, but it was just empowering in ways that I don't think they know, and I hope that I'm only a quarter as good of a friend as you guys have been to me. Shout out to [inaudible] as well. Shout out to [inaudible] as well, but I really appreciate all of you, and I've gotten more than one comment about how beautiful my voice is, and I have never been so self-conscious about it before, but I really appreciate that people appreciate my voice, so there's that. Yeah. In all, I'm really grateful that the most expensive thing that you can be given is someone's time and that you guys have come back time and time again to spend your time with us and listen to what we have to say and the content that we are producing is just--it's a humbling thing, and I really appreciate all of you. And finally, I really want to thank you, Zach, because you've poured your heart and soul into this project, into this platform, and I think everyone who knows you knows the amount of time and effort that you put into this project. Up to 3:00 a.m. mornings when we're both up and we're like, "Why are you up?" "Living Corporate. Why are you up?" "Insomnia." So... [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Ade: Yeah. I just really want you to know that I've never met anybody with your work ethic, with your passion, with your drive, and your humility. All of those things are important because otherwise I don't think I'd be able to like you very much because I'd be like, "Who's this guy outperforming me? How dare you?" You've really defined leadership for me in a lot of ways, and I appreciate you.Zach: Man, first of all, thank you, Ade. Like, none of this was scripted at all so I wasn't expecting that, but I definitely appreciate it, and I appreciate you. One of these seasons we're gonna have to talk about, like, your journey, right? Like, this--like, over the past, you know, seven, eight months, and the growth that you've shown--Ade: I don't know if I can put that on a public platform. [laughs] Wait.Zach: [laughs] But no, just the growth that you've shown and the obstacles that you've overcome and the resilience that you've demonstrated, and just all of the--just the development. I mean, there's just so much there, so I'm inspired by you, and I'm excited to be here with you and to continue forward with you on and through Living Corporate. So cool, enough of that 'cause I'm not gonna cry. Let's talk about some house-cleaning and just kind of, like, what's next for Living Corporate, right? So you guys--I'm sorry, I don't want to be so hetero-normative in my language. You all should know or should be hearing this around Thanksgiving, right? So we're recording this in mid-November. You all should be hearing this on the 23rd or the weekend of the 23rd around Thanksgiving. The regularly scheduled programming of Friday Living Corporate episodes, either full episodes or B-Sides, will be on pause until early 2019, which will be sometime in mid-January or so, okay? So that's when we're gonna be coming back. We will be back in mid-January, and that's gonna be, like, our formal, full episodes. Like, that's when those will come back, but in the meantime we actually have a really exciting partnership that we want to announce for you guys, for you all.Ade: Sure do.Zach: And that's what with the Coalition of Black Excellence. So the Coalition of Black Excellence is a non-profit genuinely focused on the uplifting and professional development through networking, through education, of black professionals. They're based in California, and they have a really big, major event called CBE Week that's gonna be happening in early 2019, and so we actually have a partnership with them to really feature a lot of the speakers for that event as special co-branded, co-facilitated learning series that we will be airing through this platform, through the Living Corporate podcast, up and leading to--up and leading to CBE Week, okay? So you'll be hearing those on Mondays, okay? Those will be starting up soon. So if you heard this on a Friday, really you'll likely hear that content--the first episode for that particular learning series will be dropping that following Monday, okay? So make sure you stay tuned for that. We're really excited about that, really thankful for the opportunity to work with the Coalition of Black Excellence in this regard, and we actually have even more content that we're gonna share with you around the CBE Week as it gets closer, but we're gonna hold some of those jewels back for ourselves. So we're excited about that for sure.Ade: Definitely.Zach: What else, Ade, housekeeping-wise? What else do we need to talk about?Ade: While we're gone, please keep sending us your letters if you want to vent, if you want to write, if you want to ask questions. We're on hiatus, but we can certainly--maybe get on Live and answer a couple questions.Zach: Ooh, that's a--what a good idea, yeah. I agree with that. No, we should definitely do that. That's a great idea.Ade: Thanks.Zach: Yeah, and then also--listen. Now, look, I'm not gonna share all of the--all of our download data 'cause I don't--you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to give away the sauce, but look, we have thousands--we have thousands upon thousands of downloads every month, right? And I share this to say I need y'all to give us five stars on iTunes, okay? Please. That would be a great holiday gift for us. Give us five stars. Like, right now I think we're around, like, 115 or so. I need to check again. I know that, like, they come in kind of in delays, but let's see if we can get to 200 before January. Can we do that? Can y'all get on and just give us five stars real fast? It don't take too much time, and I know y'all not some haters 'cause y'all listen to the show. Like, there's plenty of people--thousands of people listen to the show every month, so just go ahead and do that for us. The last thing is to make sure that you run back some episodes. I know that we publish on a weekly clip, and some people have commented like, "Man, y'all are really putting out a lot of content. It's hard for me to keep up." Like, thankfully it's a podcast, so you don't have to even quote-unquote keep up. Now you can just go back and listen to 'em. You have a little bit of a break. So make sure you check out some episodes if you missed anything. We have some really great content, really proud of it, and yeah. Okay. Well, if that's it--Ade, is there anything else you're thinking about?Ade: As y'all go into the holidays, I hope that you have a peaceful, blessed time. If you get to spend your time with your loved ones, I hope that you hold them close, you hold them tight, you have wonderful, wonderful memories--you make wonderful, wonderful memories, and if you are not around your loved ones or your chosen family, if you have to spend time in uncomfortable spaces in this holiday period, I pray for peace for you as well. I pray for ease for you as well, and, you know, make sure that you prioritize your mental health. The downside to a lot of the holidays is that you're sometimes surrounded by people who trigger you, people who put you in unhealthy situations, and I want you all to choose yourselves first. Take time off work because those people will replace you in a heartbeat if necessary. So as important as it is to build your brand, build yourself, like we were saying earlier, make sure you make time, you make space for healthy habits. I think that's all I have to say. Oh, see y'all next year. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, yeah, so we definitely will. And, man, echoing everything you just said, Ade. That's dope. That's super agreed. Hit us with the wisdom. I'm over here trying to rush out the door. Yeah. So you will hear other Living Corporate content, but as far as the Living Corporate regular season goes, you will hear us as a duo next year. So with that being said, you've been listening to Living Corporate. My name is Zach.Ade: I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Zach: [scat singing]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Latricia and Zach discuss personal brand with special guest, George Okpamen. Length: 1:11:50Host: Zach, Latricia#OnetimefortheOnetime #edopowa #ignutetamu #elilillyShop GeorgeOkk’s Store: https://skreened.com/georgeokk George's IG: https://www.instagram.com/georgeokkGeorge Okpamen’s TedTalk: #BeIntentional X #OneTimeForTheOneTime Part 1: https://youtu.be/4EOXqPnowlUPart 2: https://youtu.be/LZ-L-zcTJ40Affiliations:Executive VP and Co-Founder, Pharmacy Initiative Leaders (PILs) @pilsconnect www.pilsconnect.com Student National Pharmaceutical Association (SNPhA) @SNPhAEli Lilly Visiting Scientist Fellowship@VSFamAndFriendsGeorge’s Personal Brand Inspirations: Fighting the Fray, Marriage and family blog @fightingthefray https://www.instagram.com/fightingthefrayYoutube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TKkl29oSBy8&feature=youtu.be Cosmo Creative, marketing and Advertising @cosmocreative https://www.instagram.com/cosmocreativeWww.Cosmocreative.net Edose Ohen, Global Entrepreneurhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/edoseohenCourtney Brand, Social Media Branding Expert @greeneyesgoldsoul https://www.instagram.com/greeneyesgoldsoulTheBWerd.com Tobe Nwigwe, Inspirational Rap Artist @tobenwigwe https://www.instagram.com/tobenwigweLinktree: https://linktr.ee/tobenwigweGary Vaynerchuk, Businessman, Author and SpeakerWww.GaryVaynerchuk.com @garyvee https://www.instagram.com/garyveeEric Thomas, Motivational SpeakerWww.etinspires.com @etthehiphoppreacher https://www.instagram.com/etthehiphoppreacherTRANSCRIPTZach: If I had about three traits that I would like to portray within three seconds of meeting someone, they would be intentional, bold, and authentic. Now, would those be the first three words I use to describe myself when I walk into a room with a corporate executive or would they be the first three words that my colleague used to describe me? I'd like to hope so. Studies show that it takes three seconds for someone to make a lasting and complete impression. As a black man in corporate America, I'm too often faced with the reality that certain assumptions about my capabilities have already been ascribed to me as soon as I walk into a room filled with people who have never worked with someone who looks like me. It becomes a constant game of trying to figure out how I can make an impression on them before they can make any assumptions about me. The question is "How do I win?" This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.So today we're talking about building your personal brand. It's funny because when I came up and I would hear about branding I often thought about billboards, but as we've continued to grow and learn it's far more than that, right?Latricia: Right, exactly. Believe it or not, people connect with people, right? And people are more likely to be persuaded by a recommendation from an individual with a trusted brand, and this is why it's really important to develop a personal brand that portrays who you are and what you value and what you're known for.Zach: Right. The question I have--is there anyone that you've met who really gave you, like, an immediate impression? Like, a "Whoa, I'm trying to be like this person."Latricia: Yeah, that's a good question. It's crazy because at my job I travel all over the country, and I've worked with amazing people for some of the biggest hospitals that you could think of, and I'm constantly exposed, right? Like, with corporate executives, VPs, C-Suite, but there was one person I met when I was in my office downtown in Dallas. We were in the elevator. I was in the elevator, and so I happened to get off the floor with the only other black person in the elevator, which made sense because as soon as I met him I realized who he actually was.Zach: Who was he?Latricia: He was a new partner at the firm actually, and so I had been hearing about this new partner. And he had kind of a funny name, or, you know, a different name, and so I really wasn't sure if he was black. No one--of course no one's gonna say, "Hey, there's a new black partner." We just know that there's a new partner. And he stopped me, introduced himself. He said, "Hey," you know, "I'm a new partner here at the firm." You know, "How long have you been working here?" Like, okay. "Hey. I've been working here for about a year. I'm new myself." He was like, "All right, great. Well, I'd love to get to know a little bit more about you, so put some time on my calendar so we can talk." And so this happens a lot, right? And, you know, people always talk about having an elevator pitch. I was still kind of new, and I had practiced my elevator pitch, but I didn't really use it in that moment 'cause he kind of took the charge in that conversation. But, you know, you meet people all the time, they tell you to put time on their calendars, and so typically what I do when someone tells me to put time on their calendar is I create an agenda. So we know in corporate America that's how you start a meeting, right? You have an agenda, and you let everybody know this is what we want to get through.Zach: Right. "This is what we're trying to achieve." So the goals, outcomes of this meeting, so and on so forth. Yeah, for sure.Latricia: Exactly, so you can be productive. You don't want to waste anyone's time. So I'm thinking, "Okay, I have, you know, maybe 30 minutes to an hour to leave an impression on him, so what am I gonna talk about?" So I just defaulted to, you know, what I usually do when people reach out to me, so I put together an agenda. So I was gonna start it by, you know, just kind of generally who I am, and when I say who I am I mean I went to the University of Texas at Austin. I majored in this and that. I went to Emory University. I majored in this and that. And I'm here now, and this is what I'm doing. These are the projects that I've been on. These are the people that I've worked with. These are the projects that I'm interested in. So, you know, real formal, right? So I put together the agenda, scheduled the call, and when we get on the phone the first thing I let him know is "Hey, you know, I put together an agenda, and I want to talk about A, B, and C," and his response was "That's great. I hope that we can get to those things, but I stopped you because you were the first black person that I've seen in this office since I've been here. I just want to know what it's like to be black at the firm."Zach: That’s crazy.Latricia: And it’s so wild to me because it had been a year since I’d been at the firm and I had never had those discussions with anyone--because I didn’t have anyone to talk to about any of those things, even on the client side. I didn’t work with any clients that had black people in leadership, and so, you know, I still wasn’t really comfortable. I talked a little bit about our ERGs at the firm--those are Employee Research Groups--and, you know, there’s one for black people, and I try to get involved. I try to do community service in black communities, and, I mean, that’s the extent which I felt comfortable talking about with him ‘cause he--again, he’s a partner. And then he shared his story, and I’m really hoping that we get him on the show because I would love for him to share his story, but when he shared his story he didn’t start with his MBA or his JD from Harvard. He just started with his--he started with his background. He’s a first-gen, similar to me. Caribbean and African, but he’s a first-gen. His mother worked for the United Nations, so growing up in New York he had a very global perspective. So he just shared a little bit more about his story, and it was just--in that moment, that was the first example for me in terms of being authentic to who you are, and that to me is his brand. Like, I’ve been in meetings with him with people who don’t look like us, and he’s the same exact same way. So it wasn’t because he was talking to another black person or another black person who’s also a first-generation child of immigrants. It wasn’t just in that moment that he said, “Okay, I can have these honest conversations about who I am and my experiences being black and being first-generation with someone that’s just like me.” It was just amazing to have those conversations, and now I try my best to do that too when I’m letting people know who I am. I’m like, “Hey, I’m Nigerian. I’m Christian. I’m a woman. These are the things I care about. I do mission trips to Nigeria. I’m gonna take my two weeks off of work every year to do these trips.” So, like, I’m more comfortable, like, letting people inside of, you know, my personal life a little bit. So yeah, like, have you come across anybody that has left that type of example on you?Zach: Yes, ma’am, and I’m not gonna drop his name. My goal is for him to be on the show one day, but I definitely do have an experience. And actually, Sound Man, go ahead and find us some type of generic Shaft music because…Latricia: Oh, gosh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] I’m telling y’all. I’m telling you. Look, man, this dude was slick, man. He was, like, a combination of, like, Black Jesus and Shaft, right? So while I’m talking just lay it in the background real smooth, right? Okay, so this is my story, right? So, you know, in my experience in corporate America, I haven’t--I don’t often run into a lot of other black men, right? And when I do, like, on those every other, other, other, other instances, they’re often pretty timid, right? Like they’re not really out here trying to be seen. They’re trying to just put their head down and stack their coins and get out of here. That wasn’t the case this day, right? So I’m sitting in this little closed room, and I’m the only black man on my team, and my back is to the door, which I often don’t like to do, but anyway, the door was closed so I wasn’t tripping. Some of y’all who know about that stuff know what I mean. You don’t like (necessarily?) having your back to an open door or even a closed door. So anyway, my back was to a closed door, couldn’t do anything about it. So I’m just trying to play my music or whatever, but even over my music I heard the door open. *door opening sound* And I turn around and I’m like, “What is going on?” And the first thing I see, Latricia, is, like, the tip of this cane. A cane, though. And not a cane like a walking--like an old man, like, elderly cane, but, like, a playa cane. Like, it’s a dope cane, and then attached to this cane is this ebony black hand.Latricia: [laughs]Zach: I’m telling you. [laughs] I’m telling you. Hand is super, super, super chocolate. And then, you know, on the ground--’cause there’s a shoe, a very nicely made high quality Oxford monk-strap shoe. Might’ve been oxblood, I can’t remember. Maybe it was black, I can’t recall. But anyway, there was a--then I saw a pinstriped leg, tailored--clearly a tailored suit. Anyway, this man slides through the door. He slides through the door, pinstripe suit. He has a French cuff shirt. It’s a pink French cuff shirt with white--you know what I’m saying, white cuffs, white collar, no tie, right? Very round spectacles. Like, very clean. Everything is--everything is clearly tailored to this man. And he doesn’t have a cane for no reason, right? Like, he has a limp, and it all comes together. It’s so cool. I was like--I’m just taken aback, and I’m looking at this man because his presence in that space was so loud to me, but not loud like cacophonous, right, but loud like just a genuine presence. Like, “No, I’m here, and you can’t avoid it.” Like, he’s--he was here, and that was--that just took me aback. So anyway, we’re going on and on, and then we--you know, I’m just kind of observing him as he introduces himself, and, you know, we all do--he’s coming in to help us with, like, some leadership development work. That’s his background, feature development, executive coaching, change management, transformation, so on and so forth. So we’re all in this room ‘cause he’s here. He’s the speaker for the day on our project to help us kind of recalibrate and kind of get ourselves right and ready for what we’re trying to do with the client. So anyway, we all go to this round-table thing. Everybody standing up, “Oh, I’ve been here for this many years. I’m part of this practice. I’m based out of this city,” right? I get up, I say my thing. I say the same generic thing everybody else. We get to him, right? And so--listen, guys. He zones in. He starts talking like this, and everything he says is like butter. Like, he’s deliberate with every word he says, and he’s talking almost like--not at a whisper, right, but like at a hushed, just more smooth and still at the same time inviting tone. And so everybody--even though it was already quiet, it’s like the room got even quieter, and he’s like, “You know, I’m many things to many people. To some I’m an educator. To others I’m a salesman. To others I’m a husband and a father, but ultimately I’m a leader.” And I was just like, “What is going on?” I’m just looking around like, “Is anybody--” I’m actively looking around like, “Is anyone else witnessing this right here?” Right? And, you know, some people in the room are, like, clearly, like, taken aback. Other people are not really paying attention, but, you know, that’s a whole ‘nother podcast about people just not paying attention at work. So, you know, I’m just taken aback. I’m just listening to this man like, “What is going on?” And so after the whole big meeting, I then pull him aside and I say, “Hey, man. It was an honor to meet you,” and we start talking about the future of the executive suite, and as the country gets browner the C-Suite should also reflect it, not of course by direct ratio, but it will get browner. And so what is leadership development and coaching and all those things look like when it comes to the future? And he had some really amazing insights, you know? He could tell what I was really getting at with the question. So he gives me some dap, right? And it wasn’t like your regular, like, “I’ma just give you a handshake.” He gave me the three-clinch dap. Like, bop, boom, bam, and he says, “Holla at me though.” And I said, “What?” And I said, “What?” I was so taken aback by that, and since then we’ve been cool, and he’s a great person. Like, again, he didn’t walk in talking about this is who I am, da-da-da-da. He came in with just who he was, like, his whole essence. And, like, up to this day I always say he’s like a combination of Black Jesus and Shaft. It’s crazy. Black Jesus and Shaft with a limp and a silver-tipped cane. It’s crazy. And it was just amazing. I mean, that’s my story.Latricia: I love that we’re sharing stories from people of color who have been able to establish their personal brand in corporate America because, I mean, I would posit that it is a lot more difficult as a person of color to establish a personal brand that you can be authentic to.Zach: When you say being a person of color makes it more challenging to establish a brand, could you just expound about that? Like, what do you think makes it more challenging? Like, what do you think our ethnic identity has to do with our brand establishment?Latricia: You know, I would say, based on my experience, the strength of your personal brand is really determined by how people relate to you, and even just their willingness to relate, right? As a person of color, you’re typically faced with the challenge of trying to establish relationships with people who may overlook you because they don’t feel a personal connection to you. Without those personal relationships and people who are willing to promote you and your brand, a personal brand that is authentic to you becomes harder and harder to sustain, and that’s really when things start to get messy. That’s when people start to try to be somebody that they’re not, and how sustainable is that when it comes to just your career progression and also your quality of life and your happiness?Zach: I agree. I would say, you know, when it comes to a personal brand it’s about finding a middle ground, but really the truer statement is finding an honest ground. Like, where can you actually stand that really reflects who you are and what you’re about and that you can consistently promote? And to your point, I mean, it’s beyond just your work product or who you are at work but, like, just who you are in life because work is so much of your life. How do you demonstrate or how do you practice authenticity? And how do you present something authentic that you can consistently lean on, right, and promote for your own progression and your own career development. And, you know, it would be great if we could interview a person of color who could just share their perspective on building their personal brand, especially if they, I don’t know, had, like, an advanced degree with a career path that doesn’t typically follow a corporate route. Who maybe had a lot of public speaking experience, who still has a lot of public speaking experience, who speaks all the time, maybe on a couple TED Talks. Who, as a black man, had to navigate building relationships while also climbing the corporate leadership ladder and is still actively developing and growing his brand right now. I don’t if, like, that’s possible, but it would be great if we had somebody like that.Latricia: Oh, you mean like George Okpamen?Zach: Whaaaaaaat? *imitating Jamaican air horns* Sound Man, go--listen, Sound Man. By this point you know this is where the Jamaican air horns go. Put ‘em in here. Let’s go. [laughing] All right, so next we’re gonna have our interview with George Okpamen. Latricia: Hey, y’all. This is Latricia, and you’re listening to Living Corporate. And today we will be talking about personal branding. I’m really excited to have our guest here today, George Okpamen. He’s from Houston, Texas, currently resides in Indianapolis. He is currently working in the pharmaceutical industry at Eli Lilly. He’s a TED Talk speaker and he’s also an entrepreneur, so we’re really excited to have him on the show today to talk a little bit more about his experience in corporate America and how he’s been able to develop and maintain his personal brand. Thank you, George, for joining us today.[Sound Man throws in cheers]George: Well, I really appreciate that. It looks like I need to have you around me a lot more. That was an amazing introduction, appreciate you.Latricia: Of course. So I guess to kick things off, George, could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are today?George: Yes, I can, but before I do that I want to make it 1000% clear. I think when people think about personal branding--’cause I know that’s the topic today--they always mind-jump directly to social media or directly jumps to public speaking or things of that nature. Personal branding is one word, and that’s reputation, and so as you listen to the rest of this podcast or any time you hear personal branding, if you could bring that back to reputation--“What is my reputation?”--I think you will appreciate that more. ‘Cause I think there’s gonna be a lot of people that go, “Oh, personal branding? Let me take these social media tips.” That’s not what this is, but to get back to your question of my background, I’m gonna go all the way back to--One, I was born in Dallas, Texas. I’m the oldest of three boys. Parents are from Nigeria. Edo State. Edo Power. Shout out to Black Panther for giving us a shout out in the movie. Having parents that are from Nigeria--my dad came to Nigeria. He went to Georgetown so he named me George, and we’ll get into a little bit more of that story. I think that’s important to understand because growing up in Houston, Texas, as a Nigerian-American, I wasn’t very proud of that growing up. I still remember the first days of school, skipping class on that first day so that I didn’t have to get my name called and hurrying back to the teacher to tell them that, like, “Osuzuwa? Cross that out and just put George.” And so as I fast forward to high school when I went to Stafford High School in Houston, Texas, as I was lucky enough to be a varsity athlete as a freshmen and all the way up until my senior year I got the first opportunity to go to Nigeria. I say opportunity now, but back then I didn’t think it was an opportunity because I didn’t want to go to Nigeria. “I’m a scholarship athlete about to go play football.” And my parents decided to make me go to Nigeria, and so it was at that time, that summer of 20--what, 7? So 2007 that I went to Nigeria and saw my grandparents for the first time, and it changed my life literally because they are the ones who told me who I was. Spending a month with my grandfather, who was a chief, and my grandmother, seeing where my mom was one of twelve, seeing all of her kids and all of that nature really, really imparted George, who he was, and Osuzuwa, which means “God’s gift of wealth.” So before going to Nigeria I was an older brother. I was the same person before going to Nigeria that I was after, but it was one knowing who I was, being self-aware, and two having a different perspective that probably changed my trajectory literally after coming back. So coming back from Nigeria from Stafford, I decided to turn down those scholarships and pursue pharmacy at the University of Houston, and so my undergrad with the University of Houston, and to fast forward that story a little bit, I was at University of Houston where I thought I was gonna go to pharmacy school, and fast forward to year three of my four years at University of Houston when I applied and did not get into pharmacy school at University of Houston ‘cause that’s the only school I applied to. I decided to pledge Alpha, Eta Mu Chapter, at University of Houston, (inaudible) Eta Mu for those that know. And so it was during that time, and not just the fraternity--it was during that time where I saw a collective of African-American males doing big things, and so when you think of big things, especially at the collegiate level, all of our people in the Chapter were either student government president or head of other organizations on top of the fraternity, so it really taught me to not just be excellent in what you do for the fraternity but be excellent outside so that you can help the fraternity, and that learning I took when I applied to pharmacy school the following year again at Texas Southern University right across the street. And so, again, with knowing who I was, from Nigeria, and understanding the power of doing your job or doing your work and what you’re doing day to day and also being excellent outside of your day, I joined both of those together as I started pharmacy school at Texas Southern, and fast forwarding that story became the national vice president of the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, which is the largest minority pharmacy association (inaudible) in the United States, and that allowed me to get an internship at the FDA, allowed me to get a internship at Bristol-Myers Squibb, which is an industry pharmaceutical company in Jersey, and then fast forward that. I got a fellowship at Eli Lilly, which is where I currently work in corporate affairs. Got my first full-time role in oncology payer marketing. I’ve now just got promoted to a consumer marketing role in our diabetes (inaudible).Latricia: All right. Thank you for sharing your story. So storytelling is really important in understanding your background. So as you’ve navigated through corporate America, have you always felt comfortable sharing your story? Or, I guess, how important has it been for you to share where you come from?George: I think it’s been very important, and to get to your question directly, have I always been comfortable? I don’t think I always was comfortable sharing my story ‘cause I think I was just creating my story, and I’m still creating my story, but I think it became very evident to me--to your point, I think--as I even, like, right now play it back in my head, standing on stage running for the national vice president of SNPhA, and so it was at that time the process itself was obviously--I wouldn’t say obviously--was grueling ‘cause you have another gentleman who is just as qualified going against me, and I could’ve lost, but it was when I was on that stage that I realized that, hey, I almost didn’t even get into pharmacy school, and hey, I almost failed out of pharmacy school, and still I was being one of two people being slated to run for the national vice president. And then on top of that part of my story, part of my speech was sharing that and seeing how powerful it was for people after I did win to come and tell me just how powerful my story was one, but two that they saw themselves in my story, and then the third thing was some of my story had, like, failure in it, and they could relate to the failure, and they were proud that I was representing them moving forward. And so as I talk about, again, going all the way back to when I went to Nigeria, or fast forward to when I became an Alpha, all of those things prepared me for the moment, and all of those things go into my personal brand, which is now--I know the word phrase that I use is “One time for the one time,” but I’m not gonna break down one time for the one time right now, just the “Let’s go be.” “Let’s go do.” That’s something that I’m anchoring to. Let’s go be who they say you wouldn’t. Let’s go do what they say you couldn’t. And that comes from a story of failure because people told me when I failed that I probably wouldn’t be able to do something or that I probably wouldn’t be able to be something, and if I go back to that story of the national vice president, I was, and as I come up and fast forward to now being one of the co-founders at a top pharmaceutical company of our Young Professionals program, of the early career professionals, that’s something that, again, started all the way back when I went to Nigeria and met my grandparents for the first time. So now when you pair that with, okay, now all the stuff that I’m sharing on social media, or all the stuff that I’m putting on LinkedIn, or all the stuff when I even speak and give a presentation for a PowerPoint. All of those perspectives, I (have that for the mind?), and that becomes my personal brand because I know who I was. I’m able to, as you say, share my story and share what I really, really feel, think, and do and empower other people and vice versa.Latricia: Yeah, I really like what you said about relatability. I think that’s a big piece, when it’s really important with personal branding for you to be able to make a connection with people, and so telling stories that people can relate to is a way for people to, again, like I said, connect with you. So could you talk a little bit about connections and networking and, I guess, how that ties into your personal brand?George: I love the fact that you said networking ‘cause that’s another buzzword similar to personal branding that I cringe at when I hear sometimes, and so networking to me is not, like, again, something that’s just a thing you do. Networking to me is building relationships and, to your point, building connections, and it’s some of those as I go all the way back to connect--not to beat a dead horse--some of my stories back from going to Nigeria. It was along that journey that I connected and built relationships with people that allowed me to propel me to where I’m at today, and so to me anything that I do, I don’t always look for, like, “Oh, what can I get out of it?” I’m literally looking at “What can I provide to it? What value can I bring to this person, to this relationship?” And of course when you have--when you think that way 100 times, 100 out of 100--you’re not gonna always provide value 100 times. Sometimes someone’s literally gonna just give you something, and so to make this real, as I talk about--and I’ll go to the story I just used as far as being the national vice president, I always knew that being--that was my, what, third year of pharmacy school? I always knew that I wanted to do a rotation at the FDA, but our school, Texas Southern University, didn’t have a relationship with the FDA, and they didn’t have a relationship with Bristol-Myers Squibb, but it was me being a national vice president--and we had a parent organization called the National Pharmaceutical Association. Traditionally they didn’t really have a good relationship because the SNPhA, the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, was just worried about the students, and the National Pharmaceutical Association was just worried about the professionals, and so I took it upon myself to make sure to help build that relationship. It wasn’t until the end of my term though that that quote unquote paid off, and I didn’t do it for any bad reason. I just wanted them to have a good relationship, and it was this one final presentation that I did, and one of the members of the National Pharmaceutical Association came up to me like, “Man, you’ve done a great job this year. That was a great presentation.” Like, “What are your career aspirations?” And I told her about, like, “Hey, I want to work in industry. I want to be able to someday sometime continue to wear suits all the time instead of working retail.” She said, “That’s awesome. Have you heard about the FDA internship?” I was like, “Yeah, I actually applied about a month ago,” and she was like, “Oh, really? What part?” And I told her, and she was like, “Here. Here’s my card.” On that card it said FDA Manager Such-and-Such-and-Such-and-Such. I won’t give her name just to protect it. And she said, “Make sure you email me the application.” Now, to this day she will never say that she did anything about it, but I’m not stupid, and it was not because I, day one, was like, looked her up or day two even went after her to ask her what she did. She saw what I provided one to the organization and saw how I carried myself every single day, and she wanted to provide value to me because I was providing value to the greater organization, and that’s how I believe networking is. It’s about building relationships, building connections, and building value for others and other things bigger than you, and as you do that the universe and others will, I believe, give you your desires.Latricia: Right. Like you said, networking is a huge buzz-term. I know starting in my career, in graduate school, going to different job fairs, and we have our career counselors telling us, “Make sure you network.” I was like, “Okay. I don’t-- What do I do to network? I’m just gonna put together a resume,” or “I’m just gonna make sure I print out some business cards, and I’m gonna hand ‘em to people and tell them I want a job,” and I thought that that was what networking was, but like you’re saying, it’s deeper than that. It’s about relationships. It’s about connections and finding that way to connect with someone. So, you know, being in my career now for almost three years, I get a lot of people that reach out to me and say, “Hey, I want to be where you’re at.” Like, “What do I need to do to get there?” And they talk to me about a lot of the different barriers that they face. Typically they just don’t have the experience, or maybe they went to a certain school and that school doesn’t have relationships with certain firms that they want to go into, ‘cause you know that’s kind of how it works. These firms, they pick the schools that they want to build relationships with, and those have become roadblocks for them. And so could you--I know you shared your story. Could you also share just, like, some tactical advice for people who may be in that situation where they want to get into a certain career but just putting together a resume or a business card isn’t gonna be enough to get them in the door because a structural or institutional relationship with some of these firms hasn’t been established by maybe their school or, you know, the networks that they’re already a part of.George: Those are great questions, and for me, I know I’m a big storyteller, so this one, to your point, I’ma try to get tactical and straight to the point, and so I’ll start at your first part when you talked about the networking piece of it, ‘cause when I say networking I 1000%, with everything I just said, I’m 1000% understanding that there’s gonna be a networking conference where it’s just a room, like, 100 people, resumes and business cards. So, in that situation, what do you do to build a relationship? What do you do to start the conversation or to get a connection when you’re pretty much just dropped into a room? So the first thing you do is try to find some type of, as we talked about, relatability. Something that connects you to another person. I think LinkedIn is a powerful tool. So whatever company that you are--I’ll say Company ABC--if you type in Company--I’m actually looking at a Glad wrapper thing right now in my room as far as the trash can--if you want to work for Glad, go into LinkedIn and type in Glad Manager, right? You’re gonna type in and, like, what, 60 people are gonna pop up, and in order for you to obviously do this hopefully your LinkedIn is already on point or at least you have a picture and you have it--at the basic level. You have where you went to undergrad, where you went to graduate school, and some of your skills. It doesn’t need to be, on a scale of 1 to 10, a 10, but it needs to at least be minimally a 7.5, 8 (in scales of?) how your LinkedIn should look when you’re even about to do what I’m going to tell you. So when you want to work for Glad and you put in Glad Manager, all of these people are gonna pop up. Then you’re gonna have the opportunity to say, hey, send this person a message or connect. Now, everybody and their mom--this is pretty much called cold calling--everybody and their mom is gonna get spam or emails or things of that nature that they do not want to read or see in their box, but the point is they actually look in their box when they’re looking at their LinkedIn. Like, I look at my LinkedIn just as much as I look at my Instagram as far as messaging. There’s messages I don’t open, but you always, always, always see the picture of whoever, whatever message that is, and you always see the subject line. So take it upon yourself to be creative and say, like, “Hey, Jim. Would love to talk real quick.” Like, you literally have, like, a sentence to say something. “Hey, Jeff. Interested in Glad. Love to learn more. Love to have two minutes of your time if you have a minute.” Now, again, when you do this 60 times, you might get 58 out of 59, like, no responses, but all you need is one, and then when you have that opportunity you’re able to talk to Jim from Glad and get information from Jim from Glad that you wouldn’t have got because you never even did it in the first place. Now, when I say the information, be very thoughtful in the questions that you ask and what you want to know, but then from there it’s not about even just getting information. It goes back to what we started with. It’s about building a relationship and a connection of following up with Jim from Glad on whatever you talked about, and you have to have the resiliency to know one you’re gonna get a lot of no’s, two Jim from Glad might not talk to you again for another two, three months, but the next time you talk to them, what is the progress that you’ve made to make yourself a better candidate to be from there? Jim from Glad, who’s a manager, will see this over time, which sometimes a lot of us don’t like to hear, and then next year at this same time you are a well better-qualified candidate to work at Glad than you were before that opportunity. Now, that was one drawn out tactical example, but you do that over time multiple times to different industries, and that’s to me one way--there’s many ways--to get yourself in the door. And so I’ll put a bow on it by saying, again, that was a tactical example. Whenever there’s roadblocks to situations that you have, one it starts in your mindset of knowing, “Hey, I can find a way around this. I can find a way or make a way to get into the situation I want to get to.” So once you have that, two you go and find a creative way to get around that, whether it is going outside of the normal ways of getting that opportunity for you. Like I said, cold calling on LinkedIn or setting up or bumping into Jim from Glad at his specific place that he likes to go grab a drink and sparking up a conversation or just reaching out to other people outside your network, and then the third thing after that is to stay resilient and stay consistent. So you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s from people. Keep on pushing, and then also consistent, that means over time you continue to do the same excellent type of work and communication until you get what it is that you want. And so if you put all those together, hopefully that roadblock will become something that is a setup for you.Latricia: So I want to talk a little bit more about this TED Talk. We’re going to make sure we link it below so that everyone can go and listen to it because it’s really great. I mean, we all know, TED Talk, they don’t just have anyone up there speaking, and it’s a huge platform to be on. Could you talk a little bit about promoting yourself through this TED Talk? So one, first question I guess, how did you promote yourself to even be selected to speak on a TED Talk? ‘Cause I think we can gain some insight from that, and two, what was the aftermath, like, for your TED Talk? I know you posted it on social media, things like that. Like, what were you able to gain? ‘Cause that was you putting your personal brand out there. What did you gain after the TED Talk?George: Yeah. So, again, a big part of me in general, the way I see my perspective on life, is that--and I know this is gonna sound bad, but people--just like I’ve said before, people--when I say the word privilege, and I’m glad that Charlamagne has even put a book out there, and I had been thinking this way before he put the book out there so I did not steal this. When I think of privilege, I think that I’m very privileged. When I say that, again, it sounds bad, but again, if you read the Charlamagne book he does a great job of explaining what I’m about to say. I’m lucky enough or privileged enough to have two parents. Everyone doesn’t have two parents. I’m privileged to have--to be the oldest of three brothers. Everyone is not fortunate enough to be the oldest. And so when I’m able to--like, those are just two simple things that I anchor to when I’m able to say I’m also privileged to work at Eli Lilly, and I’m privileged to come through the Visiting Scientist Fellowship when there’s only 12 pharmacists my year that got selected to be a part of the fellowship process. I took full advantage of that, so much so that my first year, and the blog is still out there, I wrote a blog about the Visiting Scientist Fellowship. I’m the first fellow in the 20-year history of the program to write a blog about it. And so when I’m doing things like this already, people start--like, this was within my first, like, six months of being at the company. People like, “Who the heck is this guy?” And then after that, I followed up by being the first Visiting Scientist fellow to get directly onto a brand team afterwards, ‘cause typically when you’re a Visiting Scientist fellow you’re in the science side of things, or you’re maybe even on the medical side of things, and so I always knew that I wanted to get into marketing, so I was lucky enough--again, someone had to choose me. As great as I was, as bad as I was, as smart as I thought it was, someone still had to say, amongst four people, “George, you are that person.” So again, to me, that is a privilege. So because of that privilege I understand the platform that I have, and so any time that I get into something I want to showcase that. And so this goes back to your question of how did I get selected. I didn’t even know that I was selected until somebody just said, “Hey, there was some behind the scenes stuff going on,” and people kept saying, like, “Who is this George guy? Who is this George guy? We want to know more about him.” And so the topic of TED that year was--and I’m not gonna be specific, but it was something to the effect of being authentic and sharing your origin story, and so people want to know what makes George tick. Like, “He’s doing all these different things, what makes George tick?” And I’m glad you said about the personal brand thing, and similar to what we just talked about with LinkedIn, everything about that TED Talk was intentional, so much so that the name was intentional. The name of my TED Talk was Be Intentional: #OneTimefortheOneTime, and when I say that you don’t see it, but when you see the title when you actually watch the TED Talk, it was done in hashtags on purpose. So you can imagine--I had 20 speakers that day. Every speaker had a normal title with quotations, like, spaces and everything, and then you have this black, young guy, which I was the youngest guy on the stage that day, with hashtags. And so that was intentional too to let people know like, hey, one you can be a young guy two years into the company and be on the TED stage and still show up and be on the same stage with people who have been in the game for--and this TED Talk had people both at our company and outside our company. So be on the stage with people who have been in the game for 20, 30 years. That’s one. Two, you don’t have to do what everybody else is doing. Your title can have hashtags too. Your title--you can, like, bring yourself into whatever it is that you’re doing. And then three, if no one ever even read the TED Talk or heard it or anything at all, by the title itself, just by seeing my title I’m giving you what I want to give you. I want you to be intentional, and I want you to take advantage of the opportunity of a lifetime and a lifetime of opportunity. So that was, like, the thought process that I had as far as putting the TED Talk together, and then from there the TED Talk--as and when you hear it, it’s not even about me. It’s about--yes, it’s my origin story, but it was really a shout out to all the people that have allowed me to be on that stage. And so after that, to your point, I officially started my clothing line Message on Merch, which says messages, just like I did with the title. Positive messages on merchandise, and so with that, my TED Talk (power to the people?) and it allowed me to empower others. By them buying my merchandise, they’re also allowing themselves to empower other people by reading the messages that they’re wearing on their shirts. After that, as you said, company-wise, all this was, like, entrepreneurship, personal branding stuff, but as someone within the company I was seen as a more future leader. I was tapped with having sponsors, not just mentors. Mentors and sponsors are two different things. Mentors are someone that helps you, coaches you, allows you to see what you don’t see as far as what you do on your day to day. A sponsor is someone that sees--I’ll say this at the highest level--sees either you and them and/or they see that you can be someone they can work for, and so they’re gonna do everything they can ‘cause they’re a senior leader, probably a VP or above, to make sure that you succeed. And so I gained sponsors from that TED Talk because they understood my origin story and what I was trying to do, and they’ve been luckily still in my life to this day to ensure that, within my company as a marketer, I’m one of the best marketers I can be, even though I have a pharamacist background and pharmacist trainings. So on multiple levels the TED Talk helped me, but again, all of that started from my understanding of who I was, understanding that I’m privileged, understanding that because of my privilege I have a platform, and because of that platform I have the power to empower other people, not to empower myself, and if I keep that perspective and keep that mentality then I’ll be able to help other people go do what they said that they wouldn’t do and go be what they said feel like they couldn’t be. So yeah.Latricia: You were able to take your personal brand and essentially turn it into an opportunity for yourself, an entrepreneurial opportunity for yourself. So could you speak a little bit about some of your entrepreneurial endeavors? I know you have a trademark for Edo (inaudible). You have One Time for the One Time. Just tell us a little bit about how your brand has turned into, I guess, an opportunity?George: I think for me right now--I know I’m at the, like--if I think about life, I’m right now at the stage right before I’m about to, like, push forward, and it’s funny because I think a lot of people think I’ve probably pushed forward already, but I think right now, from what I see, I’m laying the foundation. So as I build out to just two other things that I’ll talk about briefly--I already mentioned the Message on Merch, the merchandise, which I won’t touch on. I’ll just talk about two other things that empower other people. I’ll talk about the OGO group. I’m lucky enough to have a collection of different friends in different industries, and so when I think of my other frat brother (Cain?), who’s a lawyer, or when I think of another marketer (inaudible) who has no science background and myself, George, who does have a science background, or my brother who’s in architecture, or my other frat brother Cosmo who’s a creator, or Joyce, who quit Lilly--her Lilly corporate job--to sing. In the meantime, in the interim, because she could sing, she started DJing. She was just like, “Hey, you know, I want to start DJing,” and then she starts DJing. Now she’s on tour. Like, these are the people that I’m surrounded with. These are, like, people, like, oh, my gosh. These are great people. So what if we all combined ourselves to help other people and tell our stories? And so that is the origination of the OGO group, and on the surface it is my initials, Osuzuma George Okpamen, but you already know that I’m way smarter than that. OGO, yes, is my initials, but it stands for Opening Great Opportunities, and so I made that an LLC, and that will be the umbrella arm of all of the projects that I do. So one of the pharmacy organizations that I have that’s under that umbrella--it’s a non-profit organization that I’m a co-founder of--is called Pharmacy Initiative Leaders. PILs, and it’s pilsconnect on Instagram, pilsconnect on Twitter, and so in essence that organization is an organization that wants to be the number one resource for all minority pharmacists. We’ll say all pharmacists, but right now we’re focusing on minority pharmacists because we understand that they don’t always have the tools needed to get into the profession, so we want to be that profession that one gets them into the profession, gets them through the profession and allows them to thrive after they graduate and become and get into the professional field itself. We believe--it’s a co-founded group of four people, which we’ll link their names also ‘cause even if I say their names now y’all ain’t gonna know who they are. Bryan, (Onye?), and Josh are my co-founders, and they’re all pharmacists (inaudible). We’re looking to expand our group over the next two to three years to include non-pharmacists too ‘cause that is the beauty of where innovation leads. When we’re able to one empower the pharmacy profession but then also get people who are affected, because people that--the whole United States is affected by healthcare and things of that nature, so how can we add their ideas and inputs into our organization as well? So those are the two big (inaudible) that I’ll be focusing on, and that’s why I want to go to business school, so I can have two years to really focus in and hone in on my foundation, and then, once I come out, super thrive and continue to climb the corporate ladder.Latricia: So I’m going to ask you these questions, and if you could just explain, you know, the difference between a value, a passion, and a superpower as you go through it. So what are your top three values? And, you know, why would you say those are your values?George: I think--so I’m trying to remember--so values, passions, superpowers. Values are something to me--as I’m just thinking about it and internalizing it--as something that really shouldn’t change. It’s internal. Like, it’s your foundation. And there’s different words to say this as well, like for an actual brand of a product, like mission and all of that other stuff, but values, what do you value? What are your core values? And so--and I’m not gonna take the easy way out and say, “Obviously family. God.” Like, those are immovable. So these are, like, the commonsensical ones that I know. Yes, I’m a Christian. Yes, I value my family. Yes, I value God. I think my values--to me, I kind of alluded to them already, so I’m glad that we’re doing this so that we can put it in print. And yes, I would appreciate us redoing this, and you could even put mine. You can put the George Ok whatever on there, but it’ll be dope to your point to help market this and get this out. So my three are privilege, platform, power. I think those are my solid-rock foundations as far as understanding my perspective of me coming from where I came from to where I’m at now to hopefully where I’m going, understanding that with that I have a platform that other people are watching, and because of the privilege I have and the platform that I’m standing on, I have the power to empower other people. And most people, when they hear power and when they hear privilege they think of the negative. No, I’m privileged to be around that, and because of that that platform gives me the visibility to have other people see what I’m doing and where I’m going, and that gives me a responsibility of power to empower other people, not for myself but for others based on that. And so those are my three. Privilege, platform, power. Latricia: Okay, so the next one would be your top three passions.George: Top three passions? And so I’m explaining ‘cause in marketing we have the three customer groups, the C3 approach, and so--this is probably cheating for me ‘cause I’ve thought about this ever since I declared my major as a marketer now. Mines are three C’s. My passions are to create, to curate, and to collaborate. And so when you talk of passions, these are some things you want to do, (inaudible) free. Like, you want to--like, you don’t need to get paid to do these things. Like, you’re so passionate, you’re so fired up, like, you can hear the voice when someone is telling you these things or allows you to do these things. It just--you just feel the fire. Now, do you have to be good at ‘em? You don’t have to necessarily be good at ‘em, but you’re passionate about it or you’re passionate about this cause or this thing. Like, that’s what to me passions are, and so when I think about creating, I love to create, and creating can be anything. It can be creating actual products, it can be creating policies, it can be creating connections, but I love to create. Curating. Curating is really the bringing together, the harnessing of what is already created. And so when you think of--my easiest metaphor for this is a DJ. Like, there are DJs, yes, that make music, and there are DJs that do great stuff like DJ Khaled, but when you think of, like, the fundamental DJ, they’re pretty much--the dope DJs that you know are pretty much curating and mixing different beats and things that’s already been made, so when you hear a Drake beat backdoored with a Kendrick Lamar beat backdoored with a Kanye beat, like, all put together in one, like, that is dope. That is curating, and so that’s the stuff that I like to do. As you think of my group the OGO group, curating different professionals and experiences to bring a better innovative concept on the backend of it. So that’s something I love to do. And then lastly collaborating, and so as you think of collaborating, you’re--it’s almost like two different things are collaborating to make something. So the difference to me between curating and collaborating is curating is bringing together something that’s already made, collaborating is bringing two different ideas to make something new. And so as I think of collaborating with different people just for a little bit or collaborating different ideas or different organizations, those are the things that I’m passionate about doing. So create, curate, collaborate are my three passions.Latricia: And then what are George’s top three superpowers?George: So this one I probably haven’t thought about as much, but if I had to sit and think about my superpowers, like, the thing that always probably jumps out to me, and when I say to me I say to me from other people, is my ability to connect with people, and so that’s whether it’s literally connecting with them, like, as person to person, like my quote unquote networking skills, or when I speak to people, like, literally connecting my story or whatever I’m talking about. It don’t even have to be a story. Connecting a math problem. If I’m gonna do a math problem on the board, I’m not just gonna do a math problem on the board. There’s gonna be a whole story to why I’m even picking the numbers I picked, and I would’ve been intentional on whatever problem that is. And so even just my insight to do that, like, I’m always--like, I never just do anything to do something. Like, I try to connect it to something, and/or because I have such a diverse background if you think about it. A football player who took AP classes who went to the University of Houston who became Greek who went to pharmacy school who became a national officer of the number one minority pharmacy organization who went to the FDA who went to an industry on the East Coast who’s now working in the Midwest? That’s just a lot of diversity there, and so my ability to connect dots--because most of the time people stay in one lane. I’m able to be in so many lanes that I can connect the dots of other lanes because--these people aren’t talking ‘cause they never would’ve thought that they had a connection. Well, y’all do. Y’all really have more alike than y’all don’t, and so my ability to do that is one. The second one would probably be my self-awareness ‘cause I’m very self-aware, and that’s not by accident. I think at SNPhA we were so lucky to where we had a lot of these--every company does it different, but, like, these (inaudible) finder type things, and I did this at a very young age, and I did so many different ones like Myers-Briggs, Strengthsfinder, all these different things to where I continuously found out more and more about myself, and that allowed me to self-reflect and understand when I am or am not doing certain types of things. So I had a really good understanding of myself probably at a very young age in my professional career. So connecting, my self-awareness, and just--the last one I’d say is vision. And so--when I used to say vision back in the day it used to be as a running back. The running back Emmett Smith was my idol growing up. Emmett Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, and all three of those running backs always had vision. But when I talk about it now, it’s more of my vision for the future. If you hear this podcast, you hear about how I’m talking about my family 120 years from now ‘cause I’m literally thinking of that. And so what do I need to do now to make that happen? Or when I scale it back and talk about my marketing plan that we’re launching next year, how do I have thought processes on strategies for next year? But I need to be working on that stuff now for that to happen, and so as I think of my ability to connect, my self-awareness, and my vision, those are things I feel like I do better than a lot of other people, and I think that’s what a superpower is. What do you do better than anybody else? And when you find that out, whatever it is, you triple down on that. There is this theory about, like, do you work on your weaknesses or do you work on what you’re really, really good at? I definitely believe, because of the self-awareness, you’re aware of your weaknesses, and you do do some things to kind of make sure that they’re not something that will derail you and could kill you, but a gift is a gift, and so when you’re gifted, you triple down on those gifts so that you can become LeBron James. You want to be better than anybody else so there is no doubt at whatever that gift superpower is. You do that better than anybody else, ‘cause that’s what’s gonna set you apart, not working on your weaknesses to be just as good as someone. And again, that does not mean to not be aware of your weaknesses, but you want to make sure you do just enough to make sure it doesn’t kill you, but you triple down on your gifts and your superpowers. That’s all. Yep.Latricia: All really good stuff, so we’ll make sure we post your workshop on our Living Corporate page for everyone to see. I really like that. That’s a great way to really break these three different concepts down, so thanks for doing that. So I guess kind of closing off, could you maybe just give some overall advice for someone working on building their personal brand and trying to find a way to make their personal brand work for them?George: I’m really glad we did this podcast. I think, just being real, if you were to just listen to this, ‘cause I’m playing it back in my head, there’s just so many rich content gems, things of that nature, and even from you, Tricia, like, just you being able to ask the certain questions that you’ve asked, I think you’ve done a really, really great job of laying this out and preparing for this opportunity. So I would just really--one not listen to this one time, listen to this a couple of times ‘cause you’ll find what you need, but if you’re fast forwarding and you just want to be able to just take notes, like, really, really quickly, I’d say--and I’m not gonna break this down probably as good as I should if I would’ve thought about it, but just off the dome--the very first thing of personal branding is understanding that it is truly your reputation. So I don’t think that anybody would be happy with having a bad reputation, so understanding mentally that you want to build a--not just a good reputation, a great reputation so that any and everybody that says your name when you’re not there, only great things come out of it. That’s number one. Number two, being self-aware of yourself to understand what are your gifts and superpowers and what are your weaknesses? What are you passionate about? What do you value? What do you want to spend your time on? What does your life look like in in 10, 20 years? What of the people around you? You won’t know that if you don’t spend intentional focused time understanding who you are, what you want, and where you want to be because only then can you actually change that reputation or evolve it or get it better, yeah. The third thing--just to be simple I’ll keep it at three--is to be--and this is a cheat ‘cause it’s two words, but whatever, it’s part of my Message on Merch--to be persistent and consistent. Persistent in resiliency to understand that you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s, a lot of negatives, a lot of, like, things that come your way (inaudible), but push through them and be persistent, but with your brand as well be consistent. No matter if someone’s treating you great or treating you bad, you want to have a consistent reputation that goes over time.Latricia: Just to close out, do you have any shout outs that you’d like to share?George: Yes. We’ll plug these in the bottom, but I would be remiss if I didn’t--I know I shouted ‘em out, but I want to shout ‘em out from a branding perspective--Fighting the Fray, which is my brother’s and my sister-in-law’s--which I really rarely ever call her sister-in-law, but just for everyone who doesn’t know (inaudible) my brother and my sister--my brother and my sister-in-law, his wife Paige, they have a lifestyle blog for young married couples. I also want to shout out to my frat brother (Link?) Cosmo. He was and has been behind me, by my side, since we became brothers, and he always has my back so I always have his. Cosmo is a beast. One of the best graphic designers. He designed my logo. He’s also Edo. Also a big shout out to my big homie (inaudible), who’s doing a lot globally for Nigerians, for Edos, and for business in general. And so just to keep it simple we’ll keep it those three, but also just to give you three people that another--from a personal branding standpoint, things to look at. Courtney Brand does an amazing job of not just lifestyle blogging, financial blogging, also marketing in her own right, she’s one of my (inaudible). Courtney, she’s amazing. So for ladies and guys, she does an amazing job of helping to build brands. So Courtney Brand, we’re gonna tag her in there. Tobe Nwigwe. He’s gonna be the next biggest--if he’s already not the biggest superstar in the states. He’s from (inaudible) Texas, as he would say, but he does an amazing job of marketing, branding, and he’s obviously gifted and talented with words, but again, he doesn’t just use his words as it. He’s helping to empower the youth and (inaudible) his words as well. So Courtney, Tobe, and then just two people that are superstars. Gary V, Gary Vaynerchuk, and Eric Thomas, who actually Tobe is an artist of. Those are people who also are great personal branders, financial people, real estate, things of that nature, and yeah. With those people (inaudible) in the links, I think you’ll get a great flavor and a really diverse background and perspective of how to market yourself, brand, be and have a great reputation on multiple (inaudible), but each one of the people I’ve named are also really great people.Latricia: Thank you for sharing that, George. We’ll make sure we link everyone’s social media pages down below. I’ve personally--maybe I follow everyone that you just listed and I don’t even know them personally, but because they had such strong brands I found all of them really interesting. So yeah, I’ll definitely make sure we share that in the description box in the blog. Thank you so much, George, for coming on here and just being open and honest and giving us really tactical advice. I think a lot of people can take so much from this. Personal branding, it may seem like a soft topic, but it is so important when it comes to growing in your career. It’s not enough to just have, you know, experience on your resume or to have good grades in school or to just get the job. You want to be able to grow in your career, so really developing that brand that people can connect to is gonna take you really far. So thank you so much, George. We really appreciate you for taking the time out to talk to us today.George: Thank you, and thank you to the creators of this podcast. Again, I’m privileged to be on it. Great job creating this, and I love the content that you guys are doing on all the multiple levels and platforms, so I’m looking forward to staying engaged and connected, and I’m proud of you.Latricia: Thank you.Zach: So, Latricia, that was a great interview. What were some of your key takeaways from y’all’s conversation?Latricia: Yeah, that really was a great discussion. I learned a lot, but the major takeaway from me would be the importance of building an authentic personal brand story, key word being authentic.Zach: For me, the biggest takeaway was the self-promotion and the importance of turning your story into a well-recognized brand. So it’s so easy when you talk about yourself it just almost sounds like just a hodgepodge of facts and figures as opposed to weaving it into some type of coherent narrative, and the interview with you and George, it resonated for me in that regard because I can really clearly hear and understand the story that he was presenting.Latricia: Right, that’s so important. Like, we really need to make sure that we’re promoting ourselves, right? It’s one thing to have your story, but how are you making

This is the first episode of Cartridge Cast- a new games podcast hosted by Sam, co-host of The Whatever Projector Podcast. Also featuring new co-hosts George and Zach (Who will be appearing in future episodes but was unavailable for this pilot). What We Playing 2:04 Game News 16:45 17:24- South Park Fractured But Whole 19:07- Visceral Games shut down Game ideas 27:00 27:54- The Thing 36:20- Horror Value Family Multi-Pack 42:27- The Descent 47:45- Texas Chainsaw Massacre