Podcasts about maybe i'm

Something unprecedented today, Pkarlgh. I'm claiming to be a victim! It's been a crummy year for comedy and my calendar is empty. This is a conversation about the possibility of changing gears and going a different direction. Maybe I'm hanging up this comedy thing after 30 years.

Leadership Lesson: The POWER of Listening Deeply with James Robilotta “There's such power in listening deeply to another human being.” -Lia Dunlap (10:57-11:03) Every person has the freedom to choose the life they want to live in. In this week's episode, we're going to take a moment to reflect on if we're currently in alignment with our goals. And how to be heard, seen, and recognized in a valuable way. Let's talk about the power of listening deeply with my special guest, James Robilotta. Part One of ‘Leadership Lesson: The POWER of Listening Deeply with James Robilotta’   James Robilotta is an author, professional speaker, personal coach, and entrepreneur trained in stand-up and improv comedy. He's been speaking professionally to willing and unwilling audiences for years and has found that quality humor — not your slapstick, dad-joke humor — is the secret to hosting powerful conversations and making a real impact. His audiences leave feeling happier and ready to take on their responsibilities and the world. He loves working with colleges, corporations, associations, and individuals with a focus on authentic leadership. With a bajillion takes on leadership out there, he continues to stand out by focusing on something other authors and speakers won’t touch: imperfection. In 2015, James published his first book, Leading Imperfectly: The value of being authentic for leaders, professionals, and human beings. The concepts of authentic leadership and leading imperfectly are the driving forces behind conversations about giving/receiving feedback, rapport building, engagement, increased productivity, retention, promoting memorability, life balance, and more.  Part Two of ‘Leadership Lesson: The POWER of Listening Deeply with James Robilotta’ As a listener, pause for a minute and ask yourself, “am I following my passion, or am I doing what I THINK I’m supposed to do?”  When you take the time to pause and reflect, you realize that “yes, I'm doing the right thing. Let me double down. Or, you know what? Maybe I'm not quite in alignment right now. I need to pivot.” Everybody has different levels of self-esteem. There may be areas where you feel confident, but there are also areas where you feel low. You think you're not smart enough, wealthy enough, funny enough, or successful enough. Each of these limiting beliefs are a different weight that you carry, but you owe it to yourself to live a life that you love because you are more than enough.  “You Deserve To Be seen. Be held. Be heard.” – Lia Dunlap (11:08-11:11) The truth is as confident as I perceive James to be, he admitted to having low self-esteem when it comes to taking compliments. Even though he could bring confidence and competence in certain situations, he feels he lacks confidence in other areas. So, as I listened, I was able to hear his vulnerability. And, we don't often go deeper beyond the weather unless we feel safe. James is doing  what he teaches leaders to do: be authentic, be vulnerable, and listen. You may never know how impactful your listening is to another human being.   The moral of the story is that we consistently write these stories in our heads that are holding us back from greatness. You don't need to put barriers in your way of becoming who you are authentically. You can be vulnerable and honest. You are here on purpose, and you are enough.    How to Connect More with James Robilotta:   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesrobilotta/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamestrobo/?hl=en Twitter: https://twitter.com/JamesTRobo Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JamesTRobo/ How To Work With Lia Have you realized you actually hate what you are currently doing? Do you wish you knew exactly what steps to take next to navigate the current crisis? Get clear on your highest vision & next steps with Lia Dunlap the Oracle. www.oracleonpurpose.com

  Joining the Engineering Influence podcast is Chris Luebkeman, who has been one of the foremost visionary thinkers in the engineering industry over the past couple of decades. He is currently the leader of the strategic foresight hub in the office of the president at ETH Zurich, which is the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. Prior to ETH, Luebkeman worked at Arup for more than 20 years leading the research and development group. And a couple of weeks ago, he participated in an expert panel hosted by the ACEC Research Institute, looking at the impact of technology on the future of engineering. Chris, thanks so much for joining us.Luebkeman:It's great to be here, Gerry. Thank you so much.ACEC:At the end of the round table, you closed with the thought that before we look ahead 20 years to where we are going, we should look back 20 years to where we were. And when I look back from today to 2000, it just reinforces my sense of how difficult it is to peer into the future. You've been doing this your entire career. How do you do it and how have you done?Luebkeman:I wish I had a perfect crystal ball, which I don't. I wish I had tea leaves, which would give me the future, but I do it nor do I have special smoke, which I could wave around and read the patterns. But what I try to do and I have done with my team is understand what's driving change and where those drivers can lead us.Luebkeman:Let me explain what I mean by that. We all feel the changes in our climate, the changes in our demographics, the political changes which we feel. These we consider are the megatrends and these megatrends we could identify for the entire world in some way. The entire world is not getting older, per se. Certain countries are getting younger like Nigeria and Saudi Arabia because of their birth rate. And other countries are getting older like Italy or Japan or Switzerland. And so the demographic change as a megatrend is something we all can recognize. But then we have to kind of start digging into the contextual manifestation of those trends. Climate change, we see this now is a megatrend, how it manifests again is quite different. And so we now see today 38 degrees Celsius in the upper tundra of Sweden, which has never, ever, ever been recorded before and starting to be able to release methane out of the frozen earth. You can start to see some sort of potential for tipping points that could then lead to cascading change.Luebkeman:But your question was, how do you look back to look forward? And I like looking back because I think as humans, we have reacted to our context in very different ways. If we go back 20 years to the year 2000, do you think how all of us were freaking out that our computers are going to explode and everything was going to grind to a halt? And it's interesting because this was one vector that could have taken place. And we now looking back, we kind of chuckle and say, yeah that Y2K bug, yeah, that was a funny one. But because of the anticipation, lots of systems were cleaned up. Many firms really took a good look at how their computation was working so that we could prevent this extra digit from being the problem, which we were worried about. And so we were able to take care of that.Luebkeman:At any point in time, we have to stand where we are and look forward. To me, this is a possibility that we have as humans. We don't know what whales dream of. We don't know what whales think of in the future. We know they have families. We know they have feelings, that their mothers love their calves just as we love our children. We know that they talk. We still hunt them and kill them, but we know that they have all of the same typologies of emotions, but we don't know how they think about the future. And this is something which we're gifted with.Luebkeman:We do this in a very organized way. If we have these megatrends, we can use five different lenses, the lens of society/societal change, the lens of technology/technological change, economic, environmental, and political, the so-called STEEP lenses. And what we try to do when we're thinking about them, we try to consciously say, let's imagine what some of the social changes could be, given what we see as megatrends. Given, let's say a city, a state, a nation getting younger. What does this mean as a society? If you're getting younger, you need more schools. If you're getting older, you need more doctors or more cemeteries. So you can look at that societal trend and say, this is where we could imagine. The same with technology. If we can start to imagine, as we electrify our fleet, that means we reduce engine heat. So the heat Island effect in cities will decrease, which could be a wonderful thing. The noise decreases, the pollution will decrease in the city. So that's electrification as that goes forward, but we need more electricity and so it's interesting to be able to spin out as you start to think of these different directions.Luebkeman:And there's always two sides to this. There's the world we want, that we hope for, and the world we might end up having or we might be afraid of. And so I think it's also important when we're thinking about the future to try to imagine both of those in, and I would say, in a non-pejorative way, I can say that I doubt if many of us want to see all of our insects dying, right? This is something that I think we could probably all agree we don't want. Now the root causes of those deaths, be it the changing temperature, be it chemicals that are getting into their ecosystem into their bodies. Those can be discussed, but we could always say so if therefore if we don't want the insects to die, what do we need to be doing. Do we need to be making sure that when we build buildings or as we evolve our cities, that we're creating more habitat for insects because we know of their critical place in our ecosystems? Or we know that just people being in nature for three minutes changes the way their neurology functions, that the brainwaves literally change when a person is in nature for three minutes. So it calms and has a positive effect. So maybe that these habitats could do multiple things.Luebkeman:And I know I got way off topic there, but for me, as you look back, it's also important not to look back always with rose-colored glasses and say everything was wonderful. Or everything was terrible. It's to try to be as honest as we can because history is always written by the victors. But trying to look at that time and what was really what was happening then that led to those decisions, that led to that context. So that we can try to have a better idea of the context into which we're walking, so that we can have a better idea of the way we'll be needing to make decisions or the things we'll need to be needing to make decisions about say in 5, 10, 20, 30 years, knowing that the future is fiction. It is a story which we will write, and there are things which we'll get right and things we'll get wrong. But that does not preclude the opportunity, and I would even say the obligation we have as professionals to think about it. We have a duty of care. And that duty of care for me includes thinking about what's coming and acting in that duty of care so that the next generations are inheriting a place that we would be proud of.ACEC:Looking at technology in the future. You gave us three words, expansion, acceleration, and consolidation. What did you mean by those?Luebkeman:For me, technology is not the end. It's the means. For some people, technology is the end. There are wonderful engineers, geeks, designers, product designers, people for whom tech is all about tech. For me, in our professions, technology, be it a pencil, which is a beautiful piece of technology, or artificial reality goggles, a great piece of technology, these are all means to ends. So what are those ends that we see? One, I think we're going to see an expansion of what we will be able to even model, to calculate, to investigate, to interrogate, to see the expansion of our human capability to judge to see, to explore. And this is where I get super excited, this idea that we cannot just measure heat flow, but we can perhaps begin to visualize the heat flow through a wall or through a window because we've got the way to understand all of the interaction of the material pieces and the parts; or the city and the way humans are moving through a place in space. So it's an expansion of our capabilities.Luebkeman:The acceleration is when we look at many of the algorithms, which are being evolved within our world and our professional world, they enable us to query a certain data set in ways that we could only dream of 20 years ago. The speed at which that we can query, query, query, query, test, test, test, test, so we can try 10 different options within a millisecond where when I was learning to be an engineer, a structural engineer 30-something years ago, plus, plus, it would have taken maybe 10 days to check all those options. And now we can do it so much faster. And I think the key here is we've got to make sure that with the acceleration, we're also still thinking critically. And I would even say that critical thinking is an even more important skillset when we can examine and do things so fast. And so we've got to really be careful again, as professionals, that we're helping the next generations understand that just because an analysis looks pretty doesn't mean it actually makes sense. It could be really done fast, but maybe it's just a bunch of junk--garbage in, garbage out.Luebkeman:And the last is consolidation. I think the technology, especially the toolsets, which we have--since they're expanding and accelerating our capabilities--will result in a consolidation of core knowledge groups. And if we go back to where many of the professions that are members of ACEC today. When those professions were founded in the 19th century, the 18th century, and even further back, they were founded based on the husbandry--and it was a small h--the curation of a knowledge set that required a long time to practice and to learn almost like a craft. And the rules that it took and experience it took for that one craft sort of built on the medieval guild systems.Luebkeman:And if I look today at a lot of these tools and a lot of the knowledge is, I would say, it's smearable in between professions. So when you're doing a finite element analysis, or you're looking at a flow of some kind of something. It could be water. It could be temperature. It could be people. Many of these skills are now able to be applied to different domains. And that, to me, this is a consolidation of sort of knowledge sets and skillsets into I believe new types of consulting groups who are able to fluidly move between domains because they're able to speak each other's language. And this is where, you go back in time, again, there's this protectionism based on language. The engineer talked about a beam and the architect talked about a beam, but they really meant two very different things. Where today, through BIM, the beam is already described with all of its different characteristics and behavior characteristics and relational characteristics. All within one package. It was consolidated into one package as we're able to interrogate in a different way. So those are, that's how I look at those three words.ACEC:In reference to what you're just saying, in the roundtable, you promoted the idea of cross-training of new engineering graduates, but you suggested rather than being trained in other sciences, that they perhaps be trained in philosophy or some other softer science. Is this part of what you're talking about?Luebkeman:Yes, absolutely. I think one of the things that we're observing more and more is the need for an individual to be not just a super, super T person with their arms super short and long legs, but have a little bit longer arms so they can reach out and understand, have a broader understanding of how to communicate across different domains. And so when you're minoring in say music, or may double major in philosophy or language, you really have to learn a different way of thinking and be open to different ways of thinking, different ways of problem-solving. So you're problem-solving how to write a poem when you're trying to be open for that or art. That's very different than trying to problem solve how you design a rebar cage or a structural system. And I think that will help us with this border crossing, which we really need to solve the complex problems that we're going to need to be solving as a society.ACEC:One one of the recurring themes about technology in the roundtable was accessibility. And you, for example, participated in the round table from Zurich, six or seven timezones away. You talked about not having to be at the center to have access to first-class knowledge, and to a degree, we already seem to be there, but where do you see accessibility expanding from here?Luebkeman:So I think this is a multifaceted question. One is the individual and what the individual can access, and it's going beyond Google. So we understand how to search and not just search with what Google slams at you, but we will be able to access the best professional knowledge. It could be through ACC. It could be through one of the other organizations, but accessing world-class first-class knowledge that you can then as a professional interpret into your local jurisdiction. One could argue you can do a lot of that today, but I think it's going to get even better with artificial intelligence. It's going to help advise you what you should be looking for. It's like, "Oh, Chris, now we see you're doing something here. You probably should look at this as well." To help me be a better professional.Luebkeman:And then it's up to my judgment to say, actually, I don't think that's really going to work here because of this, that, and the other thing. But that's just accessibility that is going to be pushed to me. And then there's the accessibility of a firm to knowledge and to skill sets. I believe we're going to see a rise of much smaller networks, networked professionals, so that if you needed my skillset, you'll be able to access me on an as-needed basis rather than having me full-time employed. So I do believe we're going to see more and more of the gig professional in a way that is able to transcend. And the last one, I'm not so sure about anymore, which is international accessibility. We're seeing sort of a movement globally to the re-nationalization of work. And so the international accessibility, that is a chapter, which we'll have to see what happens. But that's what I mean.ACEC:What does the gig professional mean for a firm? How does it change? What will a traditional engineering firm look like?Luebkeman:I think it truly will have a pretty profound effect. Because some of the name firms over the past 25 years were able to earn their name--and rightfully so--because they could develop their own software, they had their own R&D groups, they were able to create an internal market for access. Today's professional can access all of those on an as-needed basis. So you no longer need an R&D group behind you to have the same level of expertise. That's different than access to experience. And this is what I think of with some of these firms who want to get a bunch of young whippersnappers who are very facile and very clever with the new tools, but they don't necessarily have the wisdom to understand what's buildable, what's doable in say Georgia, or what's doable in Alaska. That the software might say it's doable, but the wise man or woman will know you can't do it in Alaska, in the six-week building period that you've got. So you have to do it another way. This is what I mean by this kind of this new type of gig access, where you no longer have to carry the overhead, but you're going to have to find the right people to help you out and be the best you can be.ACEC:You suggested during the roundtable that every firm should make an effort to learn about new tech, such as digital twins, and I assume other cutting edge technological advances. Why do you think acquiring that knowledge is so critical?Luebkeman:I'm a firm believer that in order to be a strong professional group, you need to keep up with what's happening in the profession. You don't have to, but it's just like saying you don't mind being left behind. It's like, "Yeah, I'm not going to bother." Okay, well then I think you'll have a dwindling market share. You'll become irrelevant. And to me, it's about how do you maintain relevance as a consultant? You're only viable if you're relevant and digital twins will be part of a contractual obligation more and more and more often. And more often the utilization of virtual and artificial reality or augmented reality will become more and more part of the daily expectation. In Silicon Valley, one of the largest builders is no longer a developer, but a tech firm and they require every one of their consultants and sub-consultants to be augmented reality ready? Because as the architects, they say, if you could, why would you not want to walk through your new office if you can, and be able to look at the details and talk about how you're going to build something or talk about the light and see the light change. If you could do that, why would you not? It's like saying, "Well, no, actually I do want to use my slide rule because that's what I know best." Slide rules are awesome. I used one too. You kind of had to know the answer before you even use it, but you were limited. You were limited in what you could solve. And so this is to me where this technology is. I'm not saying you have to buy in and you dive deep into it and everything that comes with it, but to least understand the opportunity that each of these new technologies is potentially bringing to you. Have somebody in your team or your group who's responsible for that and who shares at lunch-and=learns, saying, "Hey, this is what, this is what Joe blogs or Susan, or whoever is doing with digital twins in our world." Or have someone come in and give an augmented reality demo. Not to be afraid of it, but to say, okay, it's kind of cool. It might not be what I want to do with my personal practice, but in my team, someone should do it.ACEC:For many of us, when we look towards the future and technology, we see artificial intelligence, machine learning, accelerating, accelerating, and accelerating--the Terminator factor. Within that, where is the human engineer, the member of ACEC?Luebkeman:I still truly believe in the human at the center. I will continue to believe in that. Maybe I'm stubborn, but I believe that we as humans have in our brain and in our heart, something which is the intuition, which is a passion, which is a mission, which a silicon tool cannot yet imitate or emulate. That at the end of the day, it's my responsibility to make the decisions that I make for my project. And as a professional, we carry that. And I still believe we can understand the small, subtle signs and the small, subtle signals from a client and their needs that an algorithm cannot yet do. And I don't believe that in my lifetime that it'll be able to.Luebkeman:I love the fact that we can now do things with these tools, which we could never imagine before. Now that we can examine glare from a facade. Before it was impossible to do, but now an algorithm can help us understand if this is going to be a glary facade before it's built. I think that's great. Or test variations on how a mass transit is going to move through a city, so you have the least clash detection. Or an artificial intelligence goes through and examines a BIM model and flags the 1500 mistakes that the humans made. That's wonderful. So that we can go back and say, "Oh yeah, that's right.". So we're still at the center and I do believe that we will stay there as long as we maintain our creative edge and our passion.ACEC:That's a good way to end. So we've been talking with Chris Luebkeman of ETH Zurich. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us,Luebkeman:Thank you so much for asking and thanks to ACEC for sponsoring this series. 

Catherine Ingram joins Tahnee on the podcast today. Catherine Ingram is an international dharma teacher and former journalist specialising in empathy and activism. Catherine is the author of several books including; In the Footsteps of Gandhi, Passionate Presence, A Crack in Everything, and the long-form essay “Facing Extinction.” Catherine has published over 100 articles and interviews throughout the 1980s and early 1990s with leading thinkers and activists of our time. Catherine and Tahnee take a deep dive today, sharing a beautiful conversation around the philosophical landscape of activism, empathy, Buddhism, dharma practice, mindfulness and sensitivity. Tahnee and Catherine explore: The mindfulness industry and how it is often misguided. The 1970's Dharma movement. Catherine's experience of Buddhist meditation and philosophy. The nature and burden of sensitivity - "if you're not at least a little bit sad, you're not paying attention" - Catherine Ingram The relationship between grief and love. Activism, empathy and compassion. The themes of Catherine's essay; Facing Extinction. The Resilient Byron project.   Who is Catherine Ingram? Catherine Ingram is an international dharma teacher with communities in the U.S., Europe, and Australia. Since 1992 Catherine has led Dharma Dialogues, which are public events that encourage the intelligent use of awareness within one’s personal life and in one’s community. Catherine leads numerous silent retreats each year in conjunction with Dharma Dialogues. Catherine is president of Living Dharma, an educational non-profit organisation founded in 1995. Catherine has been the subject of numerous print, television, and radio interviews and is included in several anthologies about teachers in the West. A former journalist specialising in issues of consciousness and activism, Catherine is the author of two books of nonfiction, which are published in numerous languages: In the Footsteps of Gandhi: Conversations with Spiritual/Social Activists (Parallax Press, 1990) and Passionate Presence: Seven Qualities of Awakened Awareness (Penguin Putnam, 2003); and one novel, A Crack in Everything (Diamond Books, 2006). In February 2019, Catherine published the long-form essay “Facing Extinction” as a free link, an essay she updates every month as new data emerges about the crises we face. Over a fifteen-year period beginning in 1982, Catherine published approximately 100 articles on empathic activism and served on the editorial staffs of New Age Journal, East West Journal, and Yoga Journal. For four years Catherine also wrote the Life Advice column for Alternatives Magazine based in Oregon. Since 1976, Catherine has helped organise and direct institutions dedicated to meditation and self-inquiry and, more recently, human and animal rights. Catherine is a co-founder of Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts (1976). Catherine also co-founded the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO) in The Hague, Netherlands (1991) and is a member of the Committee of 100 for Tibet. For six years (1988-1994), Catherine served as a board director for The Burma Project, dedicated to raising international awareness about the struggle for democracy in Burma. Catherine is currently serving on the board of Global Animal Foundation, which works on behalf of the world’s animals.   Resources:Catherine's Website Catherine Facing Extinction Essay In The Deep Podcast Coronavirus: Courage and Calm PodcastCatherine's Books The Resilient Byron Project   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:01) Hi everybody and welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. Today I'm really excited to have Catherine Ingram here. She's the author of several books. Footsteps to Gandhi, Passionate Presence, A Crack in Everything and this incredible essay called Facing Extinction that you can find online. We'll link to it in the show notes. Catherine's an amazing former journalist as well so she's spoken to so many wonderful people and it seems to be this real emphasis on compassion and humanity and activism and empathy. And I know she's published over 100 articles and interviews throughout the '80s and '90s. I don't know if those are all available online, Catherine, but maybe people can have a little dig. Since '92, Catherine has been leading international retreats and public sessions known as Dharma Dialogues. I've been fortunate to go to some of those in Lennox and in Byron Bay. They're just really beautiful ways to check in and connect to this deeper meaning and purpose of life and our own inner compass toward well being. Our passions and all those kinds of things. She's also served on the board of numerous human rights organisations, as a board member of Global Animal and also is part of a newly founded organisation called Resilient Byron, which I'm excited to talk to her about today.   Tahnee: (01:19) Catherine, so busy. I know you're going to be doing some Dharma Dialogues online digitally, which is really exciting as well. Thanks so much for being here today. We're really excited.   Catherine Ingram: (01:32) Thank you for inviting me.   Tahnee: (01:33) So we've been touching on a lot of big themes lately on the podcast, which I think this time obviously takes us all deeper into ourselves for sure. I know that a lot of your work has focused on these big themes. Has that been something that you've been interested in forever or were you more drawn into these things over time? Can you give us a little sense of how Catherine becomes Catherine?   Catherine Ingram: (02:01) Well I fell into the study of Buddhist meditation from a pretty young age. I started doing retreats, attending retreats in 1974 and it became basically my world. I helped found a big centre in Massachusetts called Insight Meditation Society, which is one of the famous mindfulness centres in the world. But at the time, we were just this ragtag band of hippies. It was a very small scene in those days. Really small. We all knew each other, everywhere. I know a lot of the very famous mindfulness teachers, the older ones. They're old friends. I was in that study and in that practise and in that organisation for 17 years until about '91. Along the way, I became interested in how does a mindful life or an empathic life or a life based on loving kindness, how does it show up for anybody else? It's all well and good that we're all having a fine time but how does it matter in the world?   Catherine Ingram: (03:11) That became a focus for me in journalism. I decided to become a journalist in order to have access to what I considered the people who could be my teachers, my mentors in that new field of study, that is activism with a consciousness or empathic base. I thought to myself, why would any of those people want to talk with me or hang out with me? And I thought, well they would if I were a journalist and if I could publish their words. So I became a journalist, I kind of backed into it with a side motivation, which was, I wanted access [inaudible 00:03:50] I wanted to study with.. And that's what it gave me. So for the next 12 years, I focused entirely on that. I published, as you mentioned, many, many articles in the days... It was pre-Internet [inaudible 00:04:05] available, a few of them we did manage to scan and put online. I did that for all those years writing for print magazines and then I began having sessions myself, having meditative, initially dialogue-based meditation sessions. In other words, part of it would be silent but also it would be a dialogue format to keep people on a certain frequency, and in conjunction with silent retreats that I led all over the world. Well not in Russia. Not in Africa.   Tahnee: (04:52) Not in every single country on the planet.   Catherine Ingram: (04:56) Not every country. Not even every continent but I did that and still do, although we're in lockdown at the moment. Yeah, I've been focused on these matters, the confluence of activism and empathic action that has a dedication to the greater good. It's always been important to me. I remember long ago, I heard a Tibetan teacher talk about the two wings of the bird. One is wisdom and one is compassion and that it can fall off... I'm sorry, no, that got... That's how a bird flies. But I've heard other teachers talk about wisdom and compassion being like two different types of temperament and I've always thought, how can there be wisdom without compassion? It doesn't make sense. How can there be any kind of wisdom that doesn't include compassion? Since I was quite young in my career, I've always wanted the understanding that your awareness includes and is expansive. I'm a bit allergic to systems of thought and philosophy that are very self motivated. Self improvement, self wellbeing.   Tahnee: (06:33) You must love Instagram. Just kidding.   Catherine Ingram: (06:36) I don't use Instagram and I'm also [inaudible 00:06:38] social media in general, though I'm forced to a little tiny bit because we have to-   Tahnee: (06:44) Necessarily evil unfortunately.   Catherine Ingram: (06:46) Exactly, yeah. That's why I don't have an Instagram account.   Tahnee: (06:51) Could I just quickly... I just want to grab on that because this is honestly my biggest bugbear with how even mindfulness and all of these things have been taken and turned into almost competitions or ways of making yourself better than somebody else.   Catherine Ingram: (07:07) It's so co-opted and it's gotten corporate. I mean the Buddha would roll over in his grave if he had one. Yeah, it's really devolved over the years, I have to say. It's kind of tagged onto everything you can think of. It's very, very different than what I knew it to be back in the day. I studied with a lot of the older Asian teachers who've all since died. It was a very monastic scene back in those days but now it's a very different animal. I have to say though, there are other ways of understanding presence and how to use your attention and in those ways of understanding and of deep immersion, it would be anathema to your spirit to co-opt that understanding and use it for any kind of mercenary production. I think that there are ways to understand a dharmic life and to live a dharmic life and, as I say, use your mind and your heart in ways that in at least the original Buddhist teachings and language, it would be totally commensurate with all of that.   Tahnee: (08:53) So I mean, how do you get to Buddhism? I mean, I don't know exactly how old you are but I assume it wasn't readily available to study Buddhist practice. No.   Catherine Ingram: (09:09) Very obscure in those days. What happened though was this Tibetan teacher named Trungpa Rinpoche came along and he had been living in the UK. He was an exile from Tibet. He'd been living in the UK and he was a very hip... He was young and he was extremely hip and very interested in Western culture and in Western arts and all kinds of arts and he founded something called Naropa Institute in Boulder, Colorado in 1974 and he gathered there, all of the biggest named teachers of the day. Now they were still obscure and they had relatively small scenes, each one individually, like Ram Dass and all these people. Even though eventually that became a much larger scene, it wasn't at the time, and some of the big name Buddhist teachers who were unknown, totally unknown in those days, they were invited. He managed through his scene, his students, to get hold of all these people and gather them in this one spot to found this Buddhist university called Naropa Institute and I heard about it and I went. I decided to attend and I was 22 years old and I was in Europe. I was actually going to India, I thought. I was in Europe travelling around on my way to India.   Catherine Ingram: (10:38) I didn't know what I was doing exactly. I wanted to go find a teacher in India but I heard about Naropa and I thought, all these teachers are going to be right there in one place in my own country. I should go there. It's a long, long story. That story alone of being there that summer, in the midst of all of that. Like imagine, I used to-   Tahnee: (11:00) Be wild.   Catherine Ingram: (11:02) I use this way of describing it. Imagine like a Burning Man but that was only about Dharma and only about philosophy and only about these deeper arts. That's what it felt like for a whole entire summer. 10 weeks. That was a real turning point because there I met my whole community and I fell into a particular strain of the... There were so many different types of teachings there. They weren't all Buddhist. There were just a few of the Buddhists. There was [inaudible 00:11:34], the Tibetan Buddhists, the Zen Buddhist and then this tiny little scene led by Joseph Goldstein. He had a class, a tiny, little, dinky class called the essential Buddhism. Hardly anyone came but I walked into his class and I just felt at home. He was my teacher and also later on, my boyfriend. So that's how I began Buddhist practise. I became incredibly immersed in those teachings, especially I heard the first noble truth, the truth of suffering, the truth of the unsatisfactoriness of existence and I just thought, sign me up. I get it. Anyway, that was my world for a long time. I basically just went from retreat to retreat. I was one of the managers of the retreats. I helped found the centre, as I said, that we did in 1976.   Catherine Ingram: (12:44) I went to Asia. I finally did go to Asia after that first attempt. I went overland from Italy to India in a time when you could still do that and I was gone for... We were all over Southeast Asia studying in different temples with different of our teachers. I did that for a year. I went back many, many times to India. I went to India 10 times over the next 20 years. It was a whole... What to say, you could write a book on just that. Or I could, I guess.   Tahnee: (13:24) Well I think that's the dream. I know in this area. There's so many young people looking for that authentic, and I'm using air quotes but the authentic experience, which I mean really that generation of yours was, there were so many socio political and cultural reasons that those experiences were able to be had.   Catherine Ingram: (13:47) We were in a moment in history where our music was all about that. It was a whole, it was a zeitgeist that was happening among the counter culture but it wasn't as huge as people think. Certainly not the dharma slice of it but what was called the psychedelic generation, it wasn't as ubiquitous as people think but it was powerful and we all knew each other and hung out with each other. It was a really great, great time and then I fell into having my own sessions, as I said, and that's been really wonderfully rich. Just the intimacy of that and sharing a dharma life with people and having those kinds of conversations, I feel so privileged because I feel like I have of what you might call deathbed conversations but they're not on the deathbed, although sometimes. It's basically... Well the name of my podcast channel is In The Deep.   Tahnee: (14:57) You go there.   Catherine Ingram: (15:01) It just feels like you can stay on a certain channel of a shared frequency that is in the deep. I find that's, for me, the most satisfying kinds of conversation.   Tahnee: (15:19) Have you found it hard to integrate... Again, I'm using air quotes, a real life with that kind of desire for that deep connection? I've heard you speak in Dharma Dialogue that your family were not... They were quite conservative, I think, if I'm remembering correctly. Have you found it difficult to connect back to your lineage and to the real world? Because you do inhabit this space that is not... There's a dearth of this kind of communication in our culture. People don't want deep. They want instant news and 24 hour Fox.   Catherine Ingram: (15:57) That is why I always sought out the quieter places, the quieter minds, you could say. Those kinds of conversations and the power of sangha, of the dharmic community. I've always gravitated to that kind of crowd. In the work that I do, by definition, that's the kind of conversation... What I do is called Dharma Dialogues and so I have certainly my fair share of that kind of interaction and I spend a lot of time alone in quiet. I live a very retreat-like life. When I do have conversation, it tends to be about the deeper matters. It's not that we always have to be philosophical or anything. I mean, I'm happy to talk about the latest drama that we all might be watching. I enjoy that tremendously but because I don't have a lot of chit chat possibility in my life really, because I live alone, and my work is about this in the deep conversation, the conversations I do have tended to be in the nature such as the one we are having now, about what matters and what are the priorities and how does one live? What structure of life in your creative expression do you want to offer? That's been a very fortunate component.   Catherine Ingram: (17:50) Regarding my family and of course other people in our lives that we may not be on the same page with, I've learned over the many years to just find points of connection that we do connect on. They can be very ordinary things and that's fine. I love ordinary also. I frame it and I spoke about it in my book Passionate Presence, as finding the language of the heart that you can intuit, you can sense, especially if you're quiet inside, you can sense the language that someone might be able to hear and you try to stay on those topics. Just as you do instinctively, as we all do instinctively when, say, we're with a child and whether it's a five year old child or a 10 year old child, you adjust your language a bit, or someone who you sense is highly intelligent but is speaking... English is their second language and they're not super fluent in it so you adjust. Instinctively you adjust how you're speaking so that they'll understand all your words.   Catherine Ingram: (19:15) It's like that. You just have a radar that is sensing. The whole purpose of the conversation is to meet in the heart. It's not to just impose your great opinions.   Tahnee: (19:35) That really makes me think because so many people are like, they need to change, the world needs to change and so often, it's us, sadly that needs to change.   Catherine Ingram: (19:48) [inaudible 00:19:48] though, that way.   Tahnee: (19:52) I mean I think about my own family and I remember reading a Ram Dass book and he was talking about coming home from India to see his father and he had to stand side by side with his father and all he wanted to do was tell him all these truths and what he learned and his dad just needed him to stand there and help him make a pie or whatever and he said, "All I could do was just love him," and in that his dad softened and changed and they found commonality. I think so often we come to each other with our agenda.   Catherine Ingram: (20:23) Yeah, Ram Dass used to tell another story, which was that a woman wrote to him and said, "I'm about to go home for Christmas and I don't get along with my family that well and I know that they judge me about what I'm doing and they think I'm weird." Anyway, I don't know what he said to her but anyway, she went off to her family holiday and when she got back she wrote Ram Dass a letter and said, "My family hates me when I'm a Buddhist but they love me while I'm a Buddha."   Tahnee: (20:52) That's so beautiful. Isn't that the truth? I remember hearing you speak that you've almost stepped away from Buddhism and that whole scene in a way because it was that identification with... Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I-   Catherine Ingram: (21:10) No, I did step away from it completely. I'm so happy for that training and for those years and for the wonderful friendships. It was a whole evolutionary phase of my life but I wouldn't at all call myself a Buddhist. I don't have any kind of... There was a guy in the States, his name was Abbie Hoffman, he was a great activist back in my era. He died a long time ago. Kind of young when he died but he was a very famous radical activist in the '60s and he had a great line, "All of the isms are wasms," which I really related to. I don't have any isms that I'm adhering to. I have come to realise that Gandhi, the story of his... I'm sorry. His autobiography is called The Story Of My Experiments with Truth, and I feel that I've just been making my own experiments with truth and I don't claim as true with a capital T. I would say it's my experiments with truth, my experiments of what has made sense to me, what works, what has been consistently true for me in my experimentation about what is...   Catherine Ingram: (22:29) Like we've been saying, what is the way through? What is the dharmic line, thread of harmony through this rocky road called life? That's been, for me, I have been exposed to so many kinds of teachings, beautiful teachings over the years. Whether in literature, I love great literature... I mean, you can have profound experiences just by reading some of the great works of literature, and movies too. Movies have shaped my consciousness.   Tahnee: (23:09) Art, right? It's every... Humans have created that to tell stories since-   Catherine Ingram: (23:15) That's right.   Tahnee: (23:17) Yes, there's the vortex of, some of it is commercial and corporate and manipulative but I think so much of it is truth. Like you say, little 't' truths. Someone trying to capture what's true for them through their art form.   Catherine Ingram: (23:33) Yeah and what's so beautiful about all of that, and music, my goodness, music... What's so amazing about that is that's like our humanity is so... It's so sensitive and so universal in each of us. I mean it is why music translates to everybody, pretty much, that sometimes someone comes along and just in their own innocent, true expression, taps a chord that just reverberates through not only their own time but down through the ages. I'm always listening for those chords, however I can find them, whether in dharma circles and great works of philosophy and teachings from all different traditions but also in all these art forms and also just in-   Tahnee: (24:39) Life.   Catherine Ingram: (24:39) No, I mean in watching animals. You mentioned that I'm part now of a group called Global Animal, which is actually an animal rights organisation. I have been involved with human rights a lot in the past. Now I've switched over to the animals. The other animals, I should say. We are animals as well. Anyway, I'm just continually blown away by the tenderness and the emotional intelligence of animals, especially mammals, of course. It's all of these ways, all of these portals of wisdom that come across the transom of your mind that some minds just are looking for those, have incredible receptors for those, have neurological receptors for those kinds of channels and those kinds of bits of information and I think one can, in a sense, train the awareness to look for those.   Tahnee: (25:51) That was going to be my question because I mean, I feel like I... I sometimes try and nut this out in my head and I don't get very far. I remember as a child being very sensitive and open and then kind of going through a science phase and a cynical phase, I suppose, in my early 20s and I feel like I've come full circle back to this very sensitive place but I have, I think, now the capacity to handle it. In reading your essay especially, the one on facing extinction, I speak to so many people about this in my community and it's this sense of, it's too much and I can't carry it. The sensitivity I have, it's a burden instead of a gift. I've found, for me, refuge in stillness and quiet and all the things you were talking about. Aloneness. Nature for me is a huge part of it and why I choose to live here and I've heard you say the same about moving to Lennox. Is there ways you've seen people grow into their sensitivity and their perceptiveness/ because I think these people, they're so required right now. Those empaths and those people that feel it all. I don't know how to help them. It's like, you just have to keep going.   Catherine Ingram: (27:20) Yeah, it's a conundrum. It's a great question. It's not one I have a clear answer on in that the sensitivity comes with the deepening and widening awareness. It's a challenge because the more sensitive you are, the more subject to feeling the sorrows of the world and of the people you love and you as a young mother-   Tahnee: (27:49) Many feelings.   Catherine Ingram: (27:53) Yeah. The problem is, you kind of can't help it. You can't really help it if you're someone who feels very, very deeply and you notice things and you have natural empathy. Now I think people do shut down. They harden their hearts. They put blinkers on. They're essentially armoured because they're frightened and feeling too deeply is just too painful for them but I don't see any way around if you're paying attention, if the awareness is widening, which in a way it does on its own but like I said, you can sort of direct it, train it more to look for wisdom wherever you can find it and that includes ways to let go and to try to be strong. If that's how you're built then sorrow comes with it. Just as I sometimes say, if you're not at least a little bit sad, you're not paying attention. All of these happiness programs, they just make my skin crawl. Be happy and real happy and happy happy.   Tahnee: (29:23) Uhg! And they've coerced Buddhist, the dharma teachings. I mean, I'm on social media, unfortunately in some ways and I see this stuff and I just think... I mean, one of my teachers calls it the bandwidth. We want to be able to feel a spectrum of things and just to expect that it's just happy and sunshine, rainbows, lollipops all the time is-   Catherine Ingram: (29:50) Yeah, I often say, have said for 30 years that we live on a spectrum of feelings and on one end is deep suffering and sorrow and sadness and depression and all kinds of things and at the other is incredible joy. We live on that spectrum. And that to shut down one end also shuts down the other. So some people want to play it safe and go right into the middle, don't feel too much on either side. You shut down any... Like basically grief is connected to love. That's why we grieve is because we love, like I said in my essay. So if you're going to give up, if you're so afraid of grieving, then you really can't invest in your love. You're going to be at risk. So that's what we've got here as human creatures. I think in this time, where the world has stopped, even though it's starting to move about a bit more, but I think a lot of people have reset their priorities and have understood perhaps in ways they never understood. But for many of us who've been looking at these things and feeling into them, we've understood them more deeply. That this life that we are so privileged to be living, it really never had any guarantees. We kind of drifted into an illusion in our rich cultures of just, you know, kind of having a party. I mean just going along.   Catherine Ingram: (31:33) Just get what you want. Go where you want. Study what you want. Go here. Flit there. So we've just been having a grand old time and now we're confronted with our entire way of life has not only changed for now but it's changed and probably it's going to stay changed. It's going to get more and more challenging. I believe we're headed into a cascade of crises. The coronavirus crisis is going to perhaps be the kickstart. But we've got all the big ones waiting. The worse ones are waiting in the wings. They're cooking away in the background. We haven't been talking about them as much during this one. But they're going along. They're going a pace. Unlike this one, which might have some mitigation to it, I don't think those other ones do. So I think what we're facing is a lot more letting go and a lot more needing to find empathy and understanding and getting way closer to the ground in terms of how we live simply. I don't know if you've noticed this but I have... I've just not been spending money on pretty much anything except food and paying the utilities-   Tahnee: (33:05) Yeah the things you have to pay.   Catherine Ingram: (33:08) [inaudible 00:33:08] monthly charges and I'm grateful to be able to do that. I've seen, gosh, even though it's kind of stripped down, those are really essential things. Food and having the water come on when you turn it on.   Tahnee: (33:26) Basic necessities. Yeah well it's definitely... I mean again a theme I'm really witnessing is a move toward... So we've just put in a chicken coop, which we started before all this happened but it didn't get finished until the middle of all of this. I contacted a breeder for the chickens. I was looking for a heritage breeder. He said, "The pandemic hit and I've sold out." He said, "I've sold every chicken I have until October." He's like, "Everyone's gone self-sufficient." I was like, "Well wow, that's crazy." I've noticed all of these permaculture people are offering courses on sustainable backyard gardens and farming. I'm like, "That's so great that people are starting." If that's one of the, I guess, impacts of this on a micro level, that people start to think-   Catherine Ingram: (34:17) It's a great benefit because things are still kind of holding together. We're not in massive drought or fires or some [inaudible 00:34:26] war thing happening over resources. We're basically just told to stay in our homes. The skies are blue and the waters are clear. The earth is actually breathing a great sigh of relief in having us stopped. So it is a perfect time to learn those kind of basic life-   Tahnee: (34:47) Life skills.   Catherine Ingram: (34:49) [inaudible 00:34:49] yeah.   Tahnee: (34:50) That's something... I mean I copied a quote out of your essay, which was, "On the last day of the world, I would want to plant a tree." I nearly cried when I read that. I'm nearly crying now because I think that's something, when people feel the overwhelm and the kind of impact of what is going on on a more macro level, they just become numb. Business as usual I suppose carries on. I think it's... To think that even if the world was coming to an end, we would still make an offering that we would not live to see come to fruition I think is-   Catherine Ingram: (35:28) But just to be clear that wasn't my quote. I quoted that.   Tahnee: (35:30) No sorry. It was Merwin. But you quoted it and I mean, all the quotes you chose for that were really beautiful. But that one, I just really... Because I think I've definitely... I studied environmental science for a year and a half at university.   Catherine Ingram: (35:46) [inaudible 00:35:46].   Tahnee: (35:46) I really struggled with... You were either angry and like trying to cut off from the world and go off the grid and disappear or you were kind of apathetic and well, "It's all going to happen anyway. Humans are a virus. They should all be killed." It was like, there didn't feel like much of a middle ground but I fel like everyone was really... And even then there was the women that were like, "All the men should die. The patriarchy's the problem." Like, "None of this really resonates with me."   Catherine Ingram: (36:17) It's kind of like displaced... It's displaced grief.   Tahnee: (36:21) Yeah. When I think about the stages, right? Denial, anger, bargaining, depression... But then I also was recently reading that they've added another stage. Because it used to end at acceptance. Now they've added transformation into meaning. I thought... Into insight. I was like, that's so perfect because I feel like over two decades that's been my experience. I'm sure you've seen that.   Catherine Ingram: (36:44) Yeah definitely, yes. I know, I love that quote as well from Merwin and it's exactly that. You live, like my teacher [inaudible 00:36:57] once said, "Death is when the next breath doesn't come." So basically it's simple as that. You've living until then and how are you living here? How are you showing up? It still has meaning as long as we're here. It has meaning even after we're gone as well but while we're here we're part of the meaning of it. And so what do you do with your energy, your time, your attention? Your activity? Your service? So yeah, of course. I mean we've got so many beautiful examples through history of people who were in just terrible dire circumstances and who carried on and did it in grace, in beauty. So that's... I think that's the play on the board. In a way then that you're off the hook in terms of, you don't have to manipulate and try to change how it goes. Because it's going to go... This is a big juggernaut now. I mean, the thing I think people don't understand fully is that although we have changed the natural expressions of our world, we've changed them for the worse in that it's killing life, it doesn't follow necessarily that we can change them back.   Catherine Ingram: (38:31) I don't see the will in terms of the powerful players doing that anyway. But even if they would, I certainly am not convinced that if every single person woke up tomorrow and that was their full dedication for the rest of their lives, that it would save us, frankly. Because we have put things into play now that are on their own. That the warming is actually now on its own trajectory. So there may be some sort of technology that, I don't know, cools it or-   Tahnee: (39:06) That was something else I copied from your... Because I mean I guess, being of the age where a lot of my peers are really involved in conspiracy theories and the... Like it's so easy to be in that place of like, we're all pawns in a... But I mean you said something around Elon Musk is just like that nerdy guy who... And I've said this to my partner multiple times, like Bill Gates, they're just these people that they think that what they're doing is right because they don't have the self-reflect... You know they just don't have perspective to see. And you said something like, "Their intelligence is one dimensional." To paraphrase you.   Catherine Ingram: (39:51) [crosstalk 00:39:51] excellent. They do have amazing intelligence. It's just disconnected a lot from the Earth systems and from the natural systems. But it's not to say that they aren't well intended. I think they actually are well intended. They just get it from their own paradigm.   Tahnee: (40:09) Exactly and what they think is best is maybe not what we think is best. But I mean to call someone evil, I think it's a tricky line to walk. And I see that, that technology will save us and I've seen some eco-activists talk to that as well. I don't know, I just feel sinking in my gut when I read that sort of stuff because it doesn't-   Catherine Ingram: (40:33) It's just more manipulation with nature. It's just more of what got us into this mess actually. All these different green technologies and it all just feels so misguided. It's just more of the same. We have hubris, you know? This sort of, what Derrick Jensen calls the myth of human supremacy. Instead of understanding it, we've got to just cut back everything. We've got to stop. That's probably not going to save us either.   Tahnee: (41:02) And civilizations have fallen so many times through history through their own arrogance and their own excessive... And you look at nature and the plagues of locusts and they eat everything and they all die. That's the way it goes.   Catherine Ingram: (41:21) Locust plague going on right now. 160 million people are on the verge of starvation. Estimates that it's going to be double that in-   Tahnee: (41:28) Well I've been reading all this stuff. The ninth article on a page sometimes, or even you have to go a few pages deep but it's like, the food supply is gone for a lot of places. That's something I struggle with so much because I see it here and we do live in this place that's so rich in food and abundance and nature. I am privileged to go to the beach every day. I buy from a farmer's market. There are people in countries in the world right now that are really struggling and suffering and not even in... Like I know America's having a tough time but... I know India's going through it. I know Iran. I know parts of Africa are having a really tough time. It's like, how do we even help? What do we do?   Catherine Ingram: (42:12) I know. The chickens are coming home to roost in terms of what we've been doing here. We've got to really... We're going to need a lot more courage in ourselves. We've been so spoiled. It's not our own fault because we came into the spoils of our cultures. We've been reared up in this kind of abundance and calm and safety and all these things that we've just taken for granted. But now we're in a different phase. I think we're going to have to really get to that quiet sanctuary in ourselves a lot and find there a growing sense of courage and a growing acceptance and setting aside our own hubris about how long a life we should have and how much we should have and all of those things. It's hard. And yet that's... We can either accept or fight the reality. Those are our options.   Tahnee: (43:28) I guess I've heard you speak a lot about the... There's something I love about when you lead meditation and the animal nature of us. I think if we can... Because that's one of the things I think that has created so much of the drama is like we've separated ourselves so much from the fact that we are animals. We do have rhythms that flow with nature. We have needs like animals. We communicate with animals. I'm reading this great book called the Tao of Equus right now. She's talking about how horses, we've dominated them and used them for so long but now they're moving into this space of like, taking us back to connecting with ourselves and nature and just this idea that, especially through women and the wisdom held by, I guess that more feminine energy but I think everyone has the Yin and the Yang, that's definitely something I feel to be true, but like yeah, I can really feel that this is a time of... If you think about the elders and keeping the culture on track and present and like that's, I think, such a requirement of this time.   Tahnee: (44:36) You look at all the leadership, it's all men. It's all men of a certain kind of privilege and a certain type of personality type, thinking of some narcissistic leaders off the top of my head right now. I think it's that older wise woman thing that we need. I don't know if you know Helena, who's a local to this area, she might be involved in Resilient Byron with you?   Catherine Ingram: (44:58) No.   Tahnee: (45:01) Okay well she was one of the women that I first spoke to these things about. She's a bit older. She was one of the women to start the community farmer's markets here and everything. This idea of local features, you know, like that we have to look for leadership and strength and resilience in our own communities. And then build on that. To me, that's something I'm really craving and hoping becomes more prominent. I know you're working with Resilient Byron. Is it mostly people that are out of their childbearing years or is it a mix of people?   Catherine Ingram: (45:34) A mix. We don't have a huge steering group at the moment but it's definitely a mix of ages for sure yeah. I think I'm the oldest in fact.   Tahnee: (45:46) How do you feel like age has then, I guess, brought you... Is there like a... I read this great story the other day in a book called If Women Rose Rooted. She said it's this combination of like wrath and gentleness as you get older.   Catherine Ingram: (46:04) Yes. I definitely feel that actually inside myself. I feel what's happened for me, one of the great things is you just get a lot more authentic when you get older, women. Because I think for many women, we fell into needing to be pleasers. We kind of like to please a lot. Sometimes we compromised what we really felt and what we really thought and what we wanted to do and all of those things. Because somebody else needed us to be some other way. So that's something one grows out of, which is a happy-   Tahnee: (46:44) [crosstalk 00:46:44].   Catherine Ingram: (46:48) You just get a lot more clear about... You get more savage about your time I must say. You are less inclined to spend time on nonsense or to indulge certain mind streams that you know are just going to end up in a dark alley. It has all kind of benefits along with some great disadvantages that come along. But again, it does have some beautiful silver linings.   Tahnee: (47:23) Was it like a difficult... Because I mean when did you move? Because you've been in The States most of your life, right?   Catherine Ingram: (47:29) Yeah.   Tahnee: (47:30) And then you moved out here when?   Catherine Ingram: (47:31) About [inaudible 00:47:33] half years ago.   Tahnee: (47:35) And so, was that a big shift for you, culturally and professionally and yeah?   Catherine Ingram: (47:40) That was a big shift. Massive, massive shift. To do it at the age I was as well. But I had felt for a very long time I wanted to get out of America. And that alone wouldn't have pulled me out but it was a combination of wanting to get out of there and also falling in love with this part of the world, Australia. And also New Zealand. I love New Zealand as well.   Tahnee: (48:02) Me too. Yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (48:04) So you kind of get both when you come in as a resident of Australia. So I just have been so grateful to be living here. Just I feel so lucky. And everybody in the states, all the people I talk with so often, everybody says, "Oh God you're so lucky." Except that one isn't living... We're living always in a context of "Yes I'm here and I'm lucky but my friends, my oldest friends and my whole family are over there." So my heart is over there as well. Not entirely. But I mean I often feel like, it feels something like it must have felt in Germany if you were a Jew and you were getting out but all your family was still there. You're never really entirely free in that regard. Now I'm [inaudible 00:49:05] and I hold things in as big a space as I can as I view them, but these feelings of course arise with a great frequency. And yeah, but I am very happy to be in this particular place. This is a paradise in any context, you know? And especially now.   Tahnee: (49:31) I know we've been really, I guess not struggling with guilt but we've been really conscious of that feeling of like, "Well, our lives haven't been deeply impacted by this." It's obviously, I guess, I feel like I'm more focused now and I'm prioritising things more. I feel like my inner journey through this has been really powerful but in terms of what my outward life looks like, I don't obviously do as many external things. But I'm still at the beach every day. I'm still going to the farmer's markets at a social distance. It's like, I'm still kind of doing a lot of the things, and yeah, it's a tricky one to imagine. Like in some ways I think having the bush fires was a really good thing for Australian's to realise.   Catherine Ingram: (50:23) I do too.   Tahnee: (50:23) Yeah like that there actually is going to be an impact. Because it's so easy when it's over there to kind of forget about it or to take-   Catherine Ingram: (50:33) Yeah well it was also somehow helpful in that we were already sort of crisis ready.   Tahnee: (50:41) Orientated. Turning toward crisis.   Catherine Ingram: (50:45) We've already gotten our crisis muscles well exercised. I mean I know people could argue and say, "Yeah well we're in crisis fatigue." But I actually think there was some benefit in terms of of a way that, first of all, that whole sense of, "Okay what's important? What matters? If my house catches fire, what is it in it that I needed even? My photographs maybe or whatever. My computer possibly." But you know, and of course then you think, one of my girlfriends, this is a little bit telling a tale out of the school but, one of my girlfriends in LA owns a Picasso. And so one time, LA gets a lot of fires. And so one time she was telling me that during one of the recent fires she had actually, she had grabbed of course her dogs and the bunny rabbit and she was trying to figure out how to get the fish. She gets everything kind of ready to get loaded into the car and then it turns out they didn't need to go. And I said, "What about the Picasso?" And she said, "I didn't even think about the Picasso." I thought, "That's so cool. The bunny rabbit made it in there before the Picasso." It's like, that's really cool.   Tahnee: (52:07) It sounds like she's got her head on straight yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (52:09) Exactly. I think a lot of us would make those choices actually. The living thing. So yeah, I think we had, through the fires, come to those kinds of recognitions. What actually does one need in a life? We're so happy because we went through all that drought, we got a big lesson in water. In water rationing and we got a huge lesson in don't take any of this for granted. So yeah, these are going to be the lessons coming forth, I do believe.   Tahnee: (52:46) It's interesting what you're... Because you said something else in the essay around... It was around Auschwitz and the people that survived were the ones that had had struggles already in their lives. I think that's something... That resilience that we build through meeting life's challenges and learning from them. I think when you look at how far our civilization has to fall compared to others, it might be that there is parts of humanity that survive because of what they've been through.   Catherine Ingram: (53:21) Already existing local resilience, doing without, living on very little, helping [inaudible 00:53:27] community. Yes. I think they're in a far better circumstance to get through this than we are because we're so dependent on a very complicated system. And we're not used to a certain kind of community sharing, which is very much what we want to start focusing on with this group.   Tahnee: (53:48) So in terms of what you are looking to create, I suppose, could you just give us the elevator pitch or some kind of sense of what the ideal outcome of this organisation would be?   Catherine Ingram: (54:01) Resilient Byron, well there's one part of it is resilient and the other part is regenerative. But I'm more interested in the resilient. I actually think we're going straight into crises one after the next. So in that conversation, it's been about starting a framework of neighbourhood units of resilience basically so that people would start focusing on their own neighbourhoods. Whatever that means to you. Whether it's your street or your particular area. And start sharing resources. We've got the Facebook page, which is serving as a kind of clearing house at the moment for just information and for people to find out about things like during the coronavirus crisis. Like where to get things you need, food or help in various ways. We're going to start having more conversations about food security, community gardens, security security. Like just how to stay safe. What about housing for people who may... Either don't have housing currently or may need it at some point.   Catherine Ingram: (55:17) So there's lots of, I mean it's really in the formative stages but we're just basically looking at lots of different ways that we're going to organise to perhaps be a system in this region that is de-linked from the national sort of federal system. I don't mean that we're going to do a political coup but rather that we're going to have a lot of local resources we're relying on. Those can be also shared with nearby like [inaudible 00:55:51] and up where you are.   Tahnee: (55:54) [inaudible 00:55:54].   Catherine Ingram: (55:58) It could be an entire Northern Rivers sort of eco-community that is helping each other.   Tahnee: (56:08) That's so exciting to me because I mean I think I can see how that becomes something that can roll out. I have a friend in Melbourne and I know, on her street, she's has food and she grows things and her neighbours do and they all trade eggs and vegetables. And just that little bit of connection with the people on your street and that's such a... It has such a profound impact on your wellbeing. That was one of the solutions you offered up in the essay was community and I think-   Catherine Ingram: (56:36) It's number one yeah. It's the number one-   Tahnee: (56:38) And what we've really done is separate ourselves. I remember living in the city and if you like smiled at somebody... I was lucky to be raised in the country where you knew everybody, which had pros and cons. Because you knew everybody. I remember being really naughty as a teenager and like the local policeman was my mum's mate and I was like, "Hey." He was like, "Oh dear." Anyway. But yeah, I think it's really, this kind of getting to know the people that we live beside every day. Just getting a sense of, well, "Yeah they're the people we lean on." Our cul-de-sac through this time has been my saving grace. I have babysitters and I have friends for my children and I have people to share stories with. It's just been... Yeah it's been such a beautiful experience.   Catherine Ingram: (57:32) That's wonderful. That's really it. That's wonderful. That's what humans have relied on through all of human history until quite recently was, you lived with your tribe. And of course as civilization so called erupted, still people lived with their tribes in a different way. They lived mostly with family or rural communities or if you lived in a city it wasn't a huge city. There weren't huge cities really.   Tahnee: (58:04) Well and even people stayed in their boroughs, you know? They didn't leave their neighbourhoods. Very infrequently. Yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (58:13) You'd still live within a tribe within the city. So yeah, we've gotten far from that but we can... That is one thing I think we can bring back. Well dear I should go because-   Tahnee: (58:25) Yes I was going to say, thank you so much. It's actually nearly 11:11 so that's perfect. I just wanted to say that was such a great note to end on. And also because that's something you do with the Dharma Dialogues. I always got so much... I haven't been to them in a while because you weren't doing them and then this has happened but just being around people who are able to articulate their human experience and then just the sharing and I think that's, for me, been such a balm. And also obviously your wisdom and insight. So I know you've got two weekends per month coming up. Is it through June and July that you'll be doing that?   Catherine Ingram: (59:03) I'm actually going to do it indefinitely. I'm going to start-   Tahnee: (59:05) Oh wonderful.   Catherine Ingram: (59:07) Since we're locked down I'm just going to start doing online-   Tahnee: (59:09) Great so they'll be replacing, in a way the Lennox events?   Catherine Ingram: (59:13) Yeah.   Tahnee: (59:13) Okay. Fantastic. Okay well that's super exciting. Okay so those'll go up on your website soon so we can link to them and if anyone... Is it just through sign up to your email kind of thing and you'll be notified?   Catherine Ingram: (59:25) Yeah.   Tahnee: (59:26) Awesome. Well thank you so much for your time. I know-   Catherine Ingram: (59:29) Thank you so much for inviting me. That was lovely.   Tahnee: (59:31) Yeah it's been really beautiful to speak with you. I'll also link to your books as well because Passionate Presence is the only one I've read but I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I really just appreciate everything you're offering because it helps people like me navigate their lives. So much love. All right Catherine well I'll hopefully see you in the flesh again one day soon. Enjoy the rest of your day.   Catherine Ingram: (59:55) And you. Bye dear.   Tahnee: (59:57) Bye hun.   Catherine Ingram: (59:57) Bye.

Stories in this Father's Day bonus episode: While John admits he's not very handy, his attempts to create the perfect swing set falls short when he allows comparison to take over; Donald isn't sure he's got what it takes for fatherhood to begin with but when infertility makes that even harder, he learns that "what it takes" might be different than he imagined.  SHOW NOTES To see pictures and links for this episode, go to LDSLiving.com/thisisthegospel TRANSCRIPT KaRyn Lay  0:03  Welcome to “This is the Gospel” and LDS Living  podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith every day. I'm your host KaRyn Lay. For this bonus episode, we have two stories from faithful men who are braving the wilderness of fatherhood. I think we can all agree that parenting, and its accompanying highs and lows is not for the faint of heart. It takes real courage to jump into the woods and even more humility and skill to navigate that path through the forest filled with unknowns, and so many detours. Can you tell that I'm planning a father's day camping trip this weekend? I'll cool it with the outdoor metaphors. But what I will not cool it with, is my admiration for the men in our lives who take that role of fatherhood seriously and with an eye toward the Savior, just like today's storytellers. Our first story comes from John whose attempt at an epic creation for his children is almost foiled by his own weakness. Here's John. John  1:02  A lot of dads are really good at fixing things. But I've got to be honest, I'm not very handy. I cannot fix things is almost literally impossible. If there's a screw, I can screw something in. If there's multiple levels, or if there's an instruction manual, especially, I'm just not very good at following those instructions. It just doesn't make sense to me. Like a few years ago, one of our toilets stopped working. So I tried a few different things. I used the plunger that didn't work, I grabbed a snake. This is the tool by the way, not the animal. That didn't work. And so I gave up I was like, "Well, I guess we'll never be able to use this toilet again." I came home from work a couple days later, and here's my wife, she's rocking the toilet back and forth. She picked it up, I didn't even know you could pick up a toilet. And she threw it on the ground and "click," out popped this little jewelry box that one of our kids had shoved into it. So the good news was the toilet was fixed. But the bad news was I didn't fix it. But you know, you can only call on your ministering brothers so many times to come fix stuff for you before you start to feel like, "I should be doing this for myself." So a couple years ago, I decided it was time for me to build a swing set for my children. So I went to a manly store, Toys R Us, and bought a swing set kit, brought it home and unwrapped it. And it turns out there were about 27 steps to building the swing set. And the first step took me eight hours. It was so painful. I talked with someone recently and they said that their family for fun over the weekend bought and built a swing set. They put the whole kit together in 48 hours. That was not my experience. It took us 12 weeks, tons of help from my brothers in law. But finally the magical day came when the swing set was completed. It was in May, weather was nice, we're eating pizza on the lawn. The only downside was that one of my daughters came up to me and she said, "Dad, I love the swing set. But there's one problem, it just has three monkey bars." And I said "Honey, you will love those three monkey bars cherish each one because I promise you I am never building another swing set." But other than that, it was great. So right now I'm a religion professor at BYU, but at the time when I was building the swing set I was a full time seminary teacher, which meant every day I would teach high school students lessons from the Bible or the Book of Mormon. And so the day before finishing the swing set on a Friday, we had this class focused on comparison and not comparing yourself to others. One of the things that I got really excited about, a little scripture connection I hadn't noticed before was that Moroni was talking with the Lord. And Moroni was really worried that people would make fun of the Book of Mormon and not like it. And he says, Look, I'm not as good of a writer as the brother of Jared was. And I'd never noticed that Moroni was comparing himself to the brother of Jared. And that was the context in which the Lord said to Moroni, "My grace is sufficient, I can make weak things become strong unto you." And I was surprised to see that even amazing heroes from the scriptures like Moroni compared themselves and so then I gave the students a challenge over the weekend. See if you compare yourself to people like Moroni did and how it makes you feel. So that was Friday, finished the swing set on Saturday. On Monday, I was back at seminary teaching and I handed them a little three by five card and I said write down your experience of what happened over the weekend with comparison. Collected all the three by five cards. That night, my family and I, we were driving over to our brother in law's house for a little get together. And as we're driving my wife and I are reading these three by five cards, and I could not believe how many of my students were struggling with comparison. Everyone seemed to say something like, I always compare myself to others, and it makes me feel so terrible. I felt sad. I thought, I love my students, that are high school students, are 15, 16, 17, I thought, Oh, how tender that they're going through this tough time of adolescence. And they're just struggling with comparison, I felt so bad. And I still remember, I got out of the car and I thought to myself, these people have a real problem with comparison. So we parked the car on the street and as we're walking into the backyard, I noticed I think for the first time, that my brother in law had a swing set. I don't remember ever seeing a swing set in his backyard before. I looked at it and it was obviously bigger than my swing set. And I just happened to notice the monkey bars. And I counted 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 monkey bars on that swing set. And I thought, my swing set is garbage. I think I was particularly sensitive to it because I wanted to build this awesome swing set for my kids. I never fixed anything. I never build anything. And although everyone had had a lot of fun on Saturday playing with the swing set, the one complaint that I'd received was that there were only three monkey bars. So kind of even imagining maybe my kids were looking at his swing set being like, "Oh, now this is a real swing set." Just a couple moments ago, I've been like, Oh, those teenagers have a problem with comparison. I feel so bad for them. But then I realized, I have a problem with comparison. This swing set that I cherished was my prime creation two days ago. Now I hated and the only difference was the comparison, comparing my swing set to somebody else's. I started to notice lots of different ways in my life where I compared myself to other people, it wasn't just the fact that I couldn't fix things. Here's another real example. That probably sounds silly. It does sound silly as I look back on it. But at the moment, it was so raw. I was speaking at a girls camp with Brad Wilcox. Many of you have probably heard of Brad Wilcox, who's this incredible youth speaker. And he was going to speak second. So I was speaking first getting my stuff set up and this little 12 year old girl came up towards me with her camera, and I thought, "Oh, that's so precious. She probably wants her picture taken with me." And she looks at me with these big guys and said, "Are you, Brad Wilcox?' And I said, "Oh, no, that's the next speaker." And she just said, "Oh," turned around and walked away. And I felt so small. I'm like, I am not Brad Wilcox. And, and, then it, but again, I realized I can't be Brad Wilcox. I'm not Brad Wilcox, and I can't compare myself to Brad Wilcox. The day after seeing my brother in law's swing set when I went back to my seminary class, and we talked a little bit more about comparison. It was more real for me. It wasn't a problem that they had or something that I had to help them fix. It was something that we all were struggling with, and something that we could all be working on, hopefully, finding ways to overcome the challenge. I love going back to this phrase from Jesus though, when he says to Moroni, "My grace is sufficient." Because Moroni, I mean, he was working on a really big, important project, and he felt like his efforts weren't enough. And I can relate to that sometimes. And who knows, maybe Moroni, maybe he really wasn't as great of a writer, as the brother of Jared. And maybe I'm not as good as that other person. But the Lord has put me in this place right now. Maybe I'm not the best father in the world, but I am the father of my children. And I don't need to compare myself to other fathers out there. For me, this idea of comparison is obviously a, an issue that I continue to struggle with. I'm struggling with as recently as today. Knowing that I was going to record this story I've been listening over and over again to some of the “This is the Gospel” podcast stories which I've heard before and I've loved but I was listening to them with a different ear today thinking about the story that I was going to be sharing. And I literally thought this morning, my story stinks. Compared to these other stories. These other stories are so inspirational, so powerful, I have nothing to share. And what's ironic is I did not even think for about until about three hours later, oh, I just compared myself again. The more I understand grace, it helps me in my fatherhood, because I realized I don't have to do it all. I want to be a super Dad, I want to be the dad that fixes the toilet. that builds the amazing swing set that does all these super cool things. But I fall short a lot. And understanding that the grace of Jesus Christ is there to strengthen me, to help me get through things that I couldn't do on my own also helps me feel a little bit more patient and understanding with myself when I don't meet my own high expectations. I'm a perfectionist and I want things to be perfect. But I realized I don't have to make things perfect. That's the job of Jesus. I do the best I can, and I don't have to worry about what others think. I don't have to look sideways; I can look up to heaven. He can take weak things and make them strong, His grace is enough. And the three monkey bars are enough. And that brings a lot of peace. KaRyn Lay  9:20  That was professor and author John Hilton. I love the connection that John noticed between his own peace and his efforts to stop comparing himself as a swing set builder and parent. The fact that Christ's grace is sufficient to cover everything from my deepest character flaw to my poor efforts to put together an Ikea bookshelf, that's a powerful truth that can change our lives and our relationships if we let it. And I'm so glad that John with his unique talents was able to illustrate that in his story. I think all of those years researching and writing about the ways we access peace through Jesus for his book, The Founder of Our Peace have already been a huge blessing to so many and to me personally. Thanks, John. Our next storyteller Donald is a good friend of LDS Living . We featured his story in our podcast episode 23, called "How We Move Forward," which I highly recommend, even if you've listened to it before, it's worth going back and re-listening. And today he shares a story about what it takes emotionally, spiritually and mentally to prepare yourself for first time fatherhood. Here's Donald. Donald  10:27  My relationship to fatherhood is, it's been an up and down journey. I didn't have my dad in my home for a long period of time as a kid, then a mom and dad that had separated. And then as I got older, my mom remarried when we came to the United States, and that was Jake. And Jake didn't have like a long tenure in my life. And then we, my sister's dad came into picture several years later. So, I had different individuals that were there, but over the long span of that time period my mom was a single mom, and to not have that steady father figure, it was a, it was an absence that was notable. Luckily, I was able to have the guidance from other people outside that helped me to realize what it is to be a father. And then that's where the church came in the village, so to speak, to help me to see that and now becoming a dad, it wasn't easy because of the challenges and complexities I didn't know about. When I first met my wife, the thing I loved the most about her was that she was the opposite of me. She was quiet and reserved, and I was the outgoing talkative type and I felt that was, there's something was mysterious, and she's cute. So it was that pulled me in. When we were dating and the desire, desire to you know, to eventually get married and courting and talked about the idea of family, we both knew that's something that we wanted, we both knew we wanted to have kids. We had, we had different spectrum though. My idea was not coming from a family of three of us, I was thinking, you know what, it'd be cool to have a big family because again, those families that have friends that I've had in the church, their families were big. And you saw how much fun they had as a bunch of kids. I'm like, yeah, we can, it'd be cool to make a soccer team. Right? Cool to have a bunch of kids that could play you know, play with, at least the basketball team. Christina's idea was, well, maybe one and if there's an opportunity for twin for two, then that'd be great. So you find yourself coming to some quick compromise, but we knew we wanted kids. We, the number was, I'm a salesperson. So, I figured you just you take what you get in and you just keep upselling. But it was 2015. We got married in September 2013. When I was called to be a bishop, a member a couple people saying "Don't you have to have a family to be a bishop to the kids to be a bishop?" Remember people making that, that, that joke, but you know, obviously there's a little bit of jab to that. And obviously, there's nowhere in the handbook where it says anything like that. We were definitely laggers according to societal norms and the ecosystem of the Church, because Christina and I got married when we were 27. So that's, you know, my friends which, seemed like they had grandkids by then. We knew we were gonna have kids but and we knew we wanted to have kids but we just we both felt that we were on the same plane with God, spiritual like, we prayed about it and we fasted, we talked to our Bishop and so forth and you know, the before then they're like, just whenever your take your time on that, and that gives us comfort to know, you just go into when you feel right for you. So not that we were postponing a family for any other reason to just go travel or you know, to get a nice little dog or anything like that. We, we just, it was scary. And we were worried and it, it didn't feel right. I think the biggest thing about becoming a father that made me the most nervous was, Do I have the right stuff? To take care of a tiny human? Do I, what do I not know that I don't know? Am I going to be able to raise this individual in the right way that they're going to grow up to become a righteous priesthood holder or righteous daughter of God? Or do I have what it takes to make that happen? I think that it was, it was definitely like a fear and also like the idea of taking care of somebody. I mean, the challenges with our family in the past, my mom in the situation was, we were, were poor. And it was, am I going to be able to take care of a family? Am I going to be able to always have that? It nags you in the back of your head. What if? What if that was to happen? You want the situation to be perfect, you want the scenarios to be: the planets align and Jupiter to be bright in the sun, in the sky. But the problem is, I don't think it was ever or it, ever was going to be and thats one of the things I've learned, that we're going to go down this path, and we're going to try and we're going to mess up and we're going to keep learning and growing. But for me, being sometimes a little perfectionist, I want to make sure all is right beforehand. And that freaked me out. Donald  15:18  So let's fast forward now. And I think it was 2017 when we said, "Let's, we want to have a family, we want to start doing that." And the thing that helped us to decide that that was the right time and to overcome the fears and the challenges, I think it was just it was timing. For us just felt that it was right. It did not go as planned. At all. So we tried. My ignorance, thinking that you're, yeah, you're gonna have a baby right away when you have a desire to have a baby. But it wasn't. That was a huge upset and it was a huge setback emotionally. I mean, and to be honest, I feel like there was some, like, some guilt in that to say, did we wait too long? Now you're in your early, early 30s, you should have started right when you got married, and it's kind of like validating and everything that people have said, "You should have kids right away should have kids." And it's like, you know, did we miss a window? Do we miss an opportunity? And there was guilt on both sides, right? Because Christina was feeling guilty. Like, "Is it because of me that we're not having kids?" And spiritually, it was, "Well, I'm doing what you said, God, I am serving. Why do we have to face this struggle, and this burden if we're doing what's right, if I'm serving, and giving enough time?" and so forth. I mean, I'm just trying to be real with you. Like, that's what it felt like in, but I knew that just like with, like Abraham or Sariah and in all of those people that had children later on in their life, we had faith that we would have children. But in the moment, that's what that feeling was like. It was "Why us? " So, we found out we were pregnant, and then went to the doctor. That was the hard part. And I remember the ultrasound specialist tech going, leaving out of the room, and she sayings she's going to get the doctor and then you're like, "Okay, so what does that mean? Maybe there's some chance, maybe there's a hope there's something that happened." And then, eventually having a meeting with a doctor, and I knew when I saw Christina's face, she knew that it wasn't, wasn't good. So then we met with a doctor and found out that it wasn't and we had to have surgery. And that was bad. Hearing that news and leaving the day but then the day when she had the surgery, to watch my wife go through that was horrible because there was absolutely nothing that I could do. And it's, it was the, you know her physically in pain and then emotionally and then spiritually in pain and I, no matter what, what can you say? What can you say? "I understand?" No, I don't I can't push a kid out of my body. I can't birth a kid. I don't understand what that feels like. But having as much empathy and love for your wife and trying to console her and take care of her in that situation and physically taking care of her, still having to go and work and running your own business that was does the pinnacle of the worst part, right? I thought that was the pinnacle, until round two. When a year later, everything happened again, the same exact way. And that, if this was a depth of your lowest, then the second time around, it was even lower. I felt physically sick, because I remember going back to work that day, and not telling noone. Not telling team member not telling, my mom didn't know anything. I think the only person that knew was her sister. And it was just like carrying that weight and that burden and then feeling that I can't help her and the guilt that she felt, was saying "That it's, you know, it's my fault," and it wasn't her fault. And I couldn't get that through, she was saying "It's twice that happened, so must be it must be me. And something I'm doing wrong." And, and trying to take that weight from her. That was hard. It was hard. Donald  19:41  We kept it to our self into our immediate family. And it was a lot. I didn't want to validate, I mean, just speaking again, I didn't want to validate anybody's to say, "Yeah, you should have gotten, you should have had kids a lot sooner, you should have tried a lot sooner." So, even some of that was there. So it's like I'm not going to talk to anybody about it. We're not going to do anything. I did talk to my Stake President about it in my one-on-one with him, because he was just we won't know how you guys were doing how we were doing. And he gave counsel and, and was very supportive and helpful in that. And very helpful and supportive to Christina. And that meant a lot to us as well. One of my best friends, he and his wife, it took them a while before they have a kid. It took them 10 years, and came to the point where they said, "You know what, God, you just take the wheel. Really, like if there's a way that we can foster and we're going to foster." And they started preparing their home for fostering, and it was crazy. All of a sudden, they got pregnant and they had a kid. And he was vocal, I mean, he was open to talk about it. So now it gave me an opportunity to say, "I could talk about it to him, and he could then understand what I'm going through." You know, I mean, and I think that's the biggest thing with guys, we assume too much that, "He's my Bro, he knows what I'm going through," as opposed to saying, "I love you. I cannot imagine what that feels like, do you want to talk about it?" Like giving that window and maybe sometimes people are not ready to talk about it yet, but at least they know, "I have somebody that I can go to." It gave me an outlet. It gave me an opportunity to know that I wasn't alone. It gave me an opportunity to know that there', that it wasn't. It wasn't a punishment from God, you know, others felt the same or went through similar challenges as well. It opened up a whole different side to our relationship. That helped me to minister to Christina, my wife, better, because I had hope, more hope. I mean, I had faith but then now it was even more hope, because my friend went through it. We have, we have a hope of something to look forward to, that we could still have the same blessings like he did, he and his wife. So I wish that men in general could feel, could feel comfortable to go and talk to other men, about the struggles and the difficulties that they're going through. Donald  21:59  So my wife posted on social media for uh, nobody knew why. But she was like, "What's a talk? One of your favorite talks on, I think it was like on hope, or to get through a tough time." And then one of our friends, he posted a talk by Elder Holland, it was Elder Holland's talk, "Lord, I Believe" I think that's what it is. And it's like, "Lord, I believe, Help thou my unbelief." Maybe she can recite that talk verbatim now, because she's listened to it over and over. And the idea in that was, "that come with some faith, come with hope, come with something, and I'll carry the rest." And that was very helpful. And then all of a sudden, we had stake conference and Elder Holland came to Florida, and he came to our stake, and we visited with Elder Holland, just for like, probably like two or three minutes to explain to him what was going on. And you know how the talk was good and it helped us. But it's something about him. He looked he just looked and he said, "Don't you worry, you guys will be fine, you guys will be fine. Things will be fine for you." Yeah, so getting that from an apostle was like, "That's kind of cool." At least it gave comfort, right? And we had hope. So we said, "Let's put it back in the Lord's hand, let's just wait and not worry."  And then life went on until 2018. And Christina wasn't feeling good, the end of the year. She said, "Oh, maybe I need to do a pregnancy test." And "We're like, no, it's, that's not the situation." And then "She's like, I think I should." She did. And we were pleasantly surprised. But also equally worried because we're like the third time, if this isn't, it's going to be a huge blow. And I remember we went to the doctor's office, and because we've had two miscarriages before, the doctor wanted us instead of coming in later come in early, so we went in at I think it was six weeks. And there was like a little speck on the sonogram, just like this little, this little thing. But there was something there. And then as we kept visiting saw a little heartbeat and saw a little progress. We couldn't believe that there was something, we were excited. But we were very, very, very scared. Because before we saw stuff, so we didn't want to get the false hope that this was going to work. So we just took it with a grain of salt, and just went one day at a time. I mean, week 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. It kept going. Every week, we went back, there was a movement and kept growing and it was things were looking right. And we weren't clearly out of the woods at all. But our doctor was very excited for us. And then we got the news that yes, it's a, we're having a little boy. We're having a little boy. And it was, um, that day was, it was a, it was, I can't think of a word to describe it. It was happiness. It was peace, that no matter what difficulty, no matter what dark moments you go through, no matter what timing you have, trust in God, and as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, but if not, we still gotta have hope. Oh, the day Caleb was born. I was the stereotypical dad because Christina was like cleaning the house and stuff. It was the craziest thing and I would fall asleep and then she screamed, it was like, "Hey, I think my water broke."  I'm like, "What..what?" And I remember , I wish we videotaped it but I was running around trying to, like, "What, what?!" She tells this story better so maybe you can get her side one day. You know, I was running around, "Okay, okay, let's go. Let's get this. Let's get the car seat. Let's get the bag." We went to the hospital and the next day, August 1, he was born. When I first saw him, I could not believe that, that was our child after that whole journey. After that whole time, after the miscarriages after the surgeries, after the emotions, after giving up, after having hope, after feeling false hope, after all of that, that now we were trusted, at this time, to be to be a dad and to be a mom. It was awe inspiring. It was just, it was it made me feel that God is mindful of us. It made me want to be the person that he desired me to be and full circle now to become the father that I didn't have, to this child to help them become the individual that Heavenly Father wants them to be. For guys going through the same thing in the thick of this, we cannot deviate or forget that the Lord is there, and be open. Be willing to talk to somebody else about that it, it does us no good to hold it back. It liberates us when we're able to release it. And we can get ministered to in the scriptures that teaches us that we are here to minister and to help one another with their burdens. But it's kind of hard to help somebody with their burdens if we don't know they have that burden. And I feel that if you feel that way, you're more than willing to reach out to me, I'm more than willing to talk to you. Because I had a buddy and a friend that was there for me during that moment. There is hope. There is light at the end of the tunnel. There's a Father in heaven who is mindful of you and your wife's situation. And He's here and there to help you. KaRyn Lay  27:44  That was Donald Kelly. I laughed out loud when he said that as a salesman his idea is to upsell his wife on the number of kids they have. I'm lucky enough to know his lovely and spirited wife Christina and I can only imagine the negotiations in the Kelly household. The thing I think I will really take from this story is that clarion call to make space for the people around me to really share what's going on in their lives, by allowing others into my life. It's not always easy to do that. Vulnerability is absolutely a risky business. But I think the rewards of this kind of true ministry is worth the calculated risk. When he was talking about this, Donald mentioned our baptismal covenant to bear one another's burdens. And I think there's something really important for us to take note of, as a community committed to discipleship. we strengthen the fathers, we strengthen the mothers, and in turn, we strengthen the children, the future Body of Christ when we allow for all people to share their authentic experiences, so that we can minister in real time to our real needs. Lately, I've become weirdly obsessed with historical novels and books that forced me to imagine myself in a different time with different social structures. I love the creative energy it takes to look through the lens of historical context and try to find myself in the places and the stories of the past. And maybe it's because we're living in this unprecedented time with this pandemic and unrest and all of these things I, I hope someone will look back and read it and try to put themselves here before they judge me. Well, though it isn't a novel I have been reading the book Fathers of the Prophets, which has biographical sketches of you guessed it, fathers of the modern prophets of the restoration, and I have found myself absolutely transported. What strikes me in my reading is the amount of variation in the fathers who parented prophets. Some fathers had no idea their child would be anything special, while others knew by some divine guidance. Some of the fathers were really physically present to their children, while others were called to faraway places for long periods of time. Some were devoted servants of God, while others found little use in organized religion. But in all cases, these fathers and their gifts of imperfection were necessary building blocks to the unique talents and strengths that their children would use in their call to the ministry. Most of us will not raise a capital P prophet or a Relief Society general president. In fact, some days we might even have a hard time seeing that 13 year old who just broke his arm flinging spaghetti at his brother, or that 10 year old who just refused to comb her hair for the sixth straight day in quarantine, as heirs to the throne of much of anything. But I think the lesson from our stories today and the stories of these fathers from the past are the same. God needs us to show up as ourselves in our parenting. Because these kids, they're the future of everything. He needs us to open up to a friend who's been there before, so that he'll have enough hope to keep trying to become a father. He needs us to admit that we can't fix the toilet and then trust him to tutor us on what we can actually fix. He needs us to show up in our pain and our triumph and our weakness and our power so that our children will get exactly what they need from us, as he fills in the gaps of everything else with his grace. And more importantly, he needs us to show up in our less than perfect state so that we can model for them, where to go for peace and wholeness when their own imperfections, will inevitably bring doubt and discouragement into their lives. We may not all be raising a child who will hold a high calling in church structure. But we are all raising children, all of us whether we're biological parents or not. We are all raising children, who will be disciples of the high priests of good things to come. So let's go back to the beginning. Fatherhood, and loving and caring for children is not for the faint of heart. But that's the good news because with humility, trusting God and a brave willingness to let others help us bear our burdens, our hearts, however weak will not fail us. That's the promise.   KaRyn Lay  32:31  That's it for this bonus episode of This is the Gospel. Thank you to John Hilton and Donald Kelly for sharing their stories and burdens with us today. And for helping us all to see that three monkey bars is enough. We'll have pictures of Donald's sweet baby Caleb and John's swing set masterpiece as well as a link to John's book The Founder of Our Peace in our show notes at LDSLiving.com/thisisthegospel. I'll also add a link to the book Fathers of the Prophets there. Which honestly if you're looking for a last-minute Father's Day gift. This one's so good. Every father will be able to see himself somewhere in the pages of that book. If you aren't already following us on Facebook or Instagram, you really should. We'll have more information about our storytellers there, including follow-ups with some of the stories you've connected to most on the podcast. So, go there, find us at @ThisistheGospel_ podcast on both Instagram and Facebook. Also, we're currently gathering stories for season three. So if you have a story to share about living the gospel, please call our pitch line and leave us a pitch. We often find many of our stories from that pitch line and we love to hear how the gospel has blessed your life. Call 515-519-6179 and pitch your story in three minutes or less. We also have old bonus episodes that give you some top tips on how to pitch your story in a really compelling way. So, go and listen to those on iTunes if you haven't already. This episode was produced by me KaRyn Lay, with additional story editing by Erika free. It was mixed and mastered by Mix at Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. You can find past episodes of this podcast and all the other LDS Living podcasts at LDLiving.com/podcasts. It's that easy. See you soon.  

Maybe I'm wrong but....

Welcome! Craig fills you in the Best Security Practices for Passwords and What is absolutely required by anyone who is contracting with the US Military. For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Read More: What Government Contractors Need to Know About NIST, DFARS Password Reqs --- Automated Machine-Generated Transcript: Hey, does your business make something that might be used all ultimately by a government contractor? Did you know that all of the requirements that they have rolled downhill right into your lap? That's what we're going to talk about. [00:00:22] Hey everybody. Welcome. This is Craig Peterson. I'm so glad you guys are here. There are so many things to understand in this whole world of security and technology is frankly, it's just very, very confusing. It's impossible to catch up on. I'll give you that. And it's very hard to keep up on. So what I've been trying to do here on the show, and then. [00:00:44] And in the webinars that I've been putting on is to help you guys understand it, turn it into English, make it something that's workable. I had quite a week last week, very, very eyeopening to me because I've been working with a few different companies this justice last week that had major security problems and were completely unaware of it. To me, that is just completely unreasonable, right? Well, I shouldn't say they weren't unaware of them. One of them was the pizza shop that I mentioned, and they knew something was up because the payment card industry guys knocked on their door and say, it said, Hey, we got to do an audit. [00:01:27] And they came in, took one, look at the equipment that they had. Back in the, you know, computer room, if you want to call it that, you know, where the server is and immediately failed them. That's all they had to do was see that links us Rotter is sitting up on the wall because the link says is not good enough for businesses to keep your data safe. [00:01:49] And frankly, the same thing is true for many of the other products out there. Now there's a lot of other levels that go beyond where. The payment card industry is requiring. And one of those is for government subcontractors. I have quite a few clients that are government subcontractors, and I think every one of them came to me because they had. [00:02:14] Problems there they were trying to solve something was wrong. It was, it was, computers were slow emails. Weren't getting routed properly. Some of their customers were getting emails that actually weren't sent by them and yet had their return address on them. Right. Those sorts of problems. So we got involved and had a look and figured things out. [00:02:36] And you've heard a few of those stories here. Well, this week was interesting because one of the listeners for the show reached out to me. He got a job. Helping out a business that is a small business. It is, you know, by small, small business standards, it's a decent-sized business, but they make components that are used by the federal government, by the military. [00:03:03] And they were not doing what needed to be done. Not at all. And they think that they should be able to be ready in the next 18 months for the lowest level. And maybe they will, but based on what they do, uh, they got to get a lot more ready, a lot higher. Right. That's the basic definition here. Is, if you make something that either goes boom or at attaches to something that goes, boom, you have to comply with something called DFARs. [00:03:40] And I tar now DFARs is the defense federal acquisition regulation supplement much easier to just say DFAR is isn't it. And this is a set of standards that apply to civilians. And defense agencies in the United States, ITAR gets even higher level and it requires compliance, but I tar basically means yeah. [00:04:04] Yeah. Things go, boom. Okay. So if you make a component, so I have clients that make something as simple as power supplies. And those power supplies are used by military contractors and they go into various types of devices, another client, we went out to them and to help them out, they decided not to spend the money they needed to spend. [00:04:28] I have no idea what they ended up doing, but they make cable harnesses that are used in military systems. And they weren't even close to being compliant, which is, you know, the typical thing that we see. So here's your problem, frankly, because of the new teeth that are in place now where they've taken and they moved it to something called CMMC and the CMMC is requiring them to do. [00:04:58] Even more and it has even more teeth on it. It's absolutely amazing. So we've, this is in place to help protect federal contract information. And a lot of these manufacturers say, Hey, you know, it's not going to happen to me. I make power supplies. I make screws. I make assemblies. And in some cases they make much more fancy stuff, but. [00:05:23] It does. It applies to all of you and organizations that failed to comply with these rules can get hit badly with massive fines, class, oxygen, lawsuits, and also jail time for the owners of the business, for the people who are supposed to be running the business. Real jail time. We're talking about 10-year terms for some of these things. [00:05:50] So we have to be careful. We have to look at what we're doing and we have to understand if what we're doing is the right thing. So how does this apply to you? Well, if you are just a regular civilian, I think you should be happy that finally the federal government. Is trying to protect our information. [00:06:14] Right. We've had the Chinese attacking us and we've been in these businesses where the Chinese had backdoors installed. And what does that mean? What's a backdoor while he imagines that your computers that contain your proprietary information are directly accessible by the Chinese. So that means whether or not it's military, your computer, the information on it is now in the hands of the Chinese. [00:06:44] And in the case of one of our clients, what that means is all of his designs. All of his clients lists all of everything that he has worked his whole life for. He now gets to compete against a Chinese manufacturer that has been given all of that stuff. So imagine that happened to you. What does that mean? [00:07:05] It, it means that our military isn't as secure as we had hoped it'd been. And we could go through all kinds of stories here. I, I really want to kind of stay focused, but what this means is we need to make sure, especially in this kind of post COVID world, that all of our systems are up to date. All of our systems are properly secured. [00:07:31] So this, this company, this week, one of these companies this week, they had put in VPNs and they had used some slightly higher-end equipment. You can't just go and buy SonicWall off of the shelves over at staples, but it does not meet any of these federal guidelines. And what really, really upsets me here is that. [00:07:57]They do a search online for the model of hardware, software, whatever it is they're using. And they're looking for an instance for compliance and it says, yeah, we're DFARs compliant when they are not compliant. It just. Ah, I don't know what to do about it. Maybe it's just me, right? Maybe I'm just a little bit too uptight here, but they're conning people. [00:08:24] They're conning you. And if you've attended my webinars, you know how these VPN companies are, conning is how these privacy protection companies are. Conning how the antivirus vendors are calling you. And I'm also seeing this for our, our military subcontractors. All of them that I've been involved with have been conned. [00:08:46] And now that's not true with the really big ones. Right. I deal with small businesses, 500 employees, and smaller, but. Man. They don't even know what they don't know. And that's part of the problem. Right? That's always part of the problem. So there are a few things I want you guys to, to understand and know, cause this applies to everybody. [00:09:09] First of all. Nest. This is a government organization that comes out with standards. It's a national Institute of standards and technology. And remember, they used to advise that you have these super-duper fancy passwords that are hard to remember and a different password on every machine. And you had to change them every month or two. [00:09:32] Well, they have relaxed that now, and they follow the same guidance that I've been preaching for years, which is. Have a passphrase, a set of words that you remember that you're not going to forget and that you can type in pretty quickly, but it may be 30, 40 characters long. And then use that in conjunction with a good password manager, like one password that is going to keep all of the passwords for you. [00:09:59] So you have the one big, really good master password and then a whole bunch of. A password stored in your password manager. Now let's see multifactor authentication is the next one I have on my list. And it is not what it used to be. Unfortunately, a multifactor authentication. Now a lot of people are looking at it as well. [00:10:22] Uh, it's just a text message. I'm gonna need a text message. Well, okay. That's, isn't that wonderful, but that is not true. Multifactor authentication, you know, multifactor authentication means something that, you know, along with something that you have, like a mobile app or security key. So be careful with this. [00:10:41] And again, if you're government contractor, you've got to use. Special types of key chain storage like TPM or TEA. If you need more information, by all means, reach out to M E me@craigpeterson.com. But if you're looking at getting some of this federal government money, By being a contractor, or if your devices are used or materials are used by military contractors realize that your neck is really on the line. [00:11:13] Now with CMMC long jail term, backbreaking fines, it will put you out of business. If you get audited, or if you lose some of this data, Hey, when we come back, we're going to talk about a lawsuit and, and I think this one's going somewhere. Google got sued for at least $5 billion because Incognito mode is not the incognito mode they've been advertising. [00:11:42] Hey, how sad for fun? Make sure you sign up. You get all of the information for business for home. Craig peterson.com/subscribes to crown. I'll be right back. --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Evie's Enchanted Emporium 02. (Season -08 episode -08). I played to the end of the demo! This is the finale. F Lorelei I sincerely hope that you continue filling out the world. Everyone else you can find this demo at https://fallenlorelei.itch.io/evies-enchanted-emporium and subscribe to the Fallen Lorelei Youtube Channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChH50vAPlEmsdX3HDtTijBw The thumbnails in these two episodes have both been fan-art by me, Daniel K, host of the Daniel K's Let's Plays podcast, and boy they were real fun to draw. I got really into it. Anyway, thanks all. I think the only music in this episode was the closing-credits music, Six Ways to Sunday by The Drones. Maybe I'm wrong though, I edited this one a couple days ago.. Goodbye!

Zach has the honor of having a conversation with Dr. Erin L. Thomas, Head of Diversity, Inclusion & Belonging at Upwork, about organizational equity during the COVID-19 pandemic. She graciously shares some advice regarding what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees and talks a bit about how her perspective and focuses at work have shifted as this pandemic has continued. Check the links in the show notes to connect with Dr. Thomas!Link up with Dr. Thomas on Twitter! She's also on LinkedIn. Links in order:https://bit.ly/3c0BXKhhttps://bit.ly/3c7qhFELearn more about Upwork on their website. You can view their open positions by clicking here. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2TEC8Vnhttps://bit.ly/2A5X00WFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach, and you know what? I'ma just go ahead and say it right now. It's also Emory. Emory, say something. [Emory breathes] That's just her breathing. Emory is, at the time of this recording, six weeks old. So we're here because I'm on daddy duty and my wife has to get some sleep. That's right. Husbands, help your wives, or partners rather, excuse me - not to be overly gendered on a podcast all focused on inclusion, equity and diversity. Help your partners, you know what I'm saying? Everybody, you know, they--one person can't do it all. Sometimes you gotta step in, and this podcast is great, and I love y'all, but of course I love my daughter the most. Well, I love my wife also. Let me not do any type of weird hierarchy right now live, like, a live-streaming conscience of thought on the podcast, but the point is you have responsibilities. There are things that take precedent. And look, we're in a new normal, so I'm just here. Where was I? Right, Living Corporate. So look, Living Corporate amplifies and centers black and brown voices at work. Why do I say black and brown and not, like, people of color? Because I want to be very explicit, we want to be very explicit, with what our mission is. So we aim to center and amplify black and brown identities, marginalized folks, folks on the periphery, in the workplace, and we do that how? We do that by having real talk in a corporate world. Now how do we do that? We do that by interviewing incredible leaders cut from all type of cloth. And, you know, we've had executives. We've had professors, entrepreneurs, public servants, activists, civil leaders, elected officials. We've had all types of people, artists, and today is no different. Today we have Dr. Erin L. Thomas. Dr. Thomas is the head of diversity, inclusion and belonging at Upwork where she leads diversity, inclusion and belonging, or DIBs. She leads the strategy implementation and coaching for all of Upwork. Prior to Upwork though, Dr. Thomas was a managing director at Paradigm, a diversity and inclusion strategy firm where she partnered with companies to embed DIBs into organizations through culture transformation and people development. Prior to Paradigm, Erin held positions at Grant Thornton LLP, Argonne National Laboratory developing D&I strategies, programming and metrics. Her work has been featured in Fast Company and the New York Times and recognized by Forbes, Human Rights Campaign, the National Association for Female Executives and the Equal Opportunity Magazine. She holds a PhD in social psychology, a Master of Philosophy in social psychology; a Master of Science in social psychology; and a Bachelor of Arts in psychology and international studies from Yale University. She is accredited, y'all. Okay? Don't question us, okay? We're coming to y'all. We bring y'all heat rock every single week, and the heat rock we bring is because we have guests that have heat rock. I'ma say heat rock again just so y'all get the point. Yes, I'm turnt up. Yes, it's a Tuesday. Who cares? Erin, what's up? Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Erin: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Hi, little baby Emory. I am so excited to be here, and I want to give you a number. So I'm really into, during COVID times, anchoring, you know, "How are you doing?" on a scale. 1 is, you know, "We've got to get out of here and get some more support." Like, "We're not doing well." 10 is, you know, "COVID what? COVID who?" But I think, like, if you're a 10, you also probably need some external support. Zach: Facts. [laughs]Erin: And I think today I am... I'm, like, a 7, 8. I'm very excited to be chatting with you. What's your number?Zach: That's a really good question. You know, I don't know. So it's interesting because your scale, I don't know how it accounts for, like, other things, right? So, like, I'm also here with, like, a six-week-old baby. So maybe I'm, like, a--so, like, coronavirus is not, like, at the top of my mind because I'm trying to focus on keeping this thing that looks like me alive. Maybe I'm, like, a--I'd probably say I'm, like, a 7, 8. Like, I'm pretty good. I'm happy, right? Like, I mean, life is good. The new Drake album--well, not the album, but a little collection of loosies came out recently that was very good, that I enjoyed. You know, my favorite shows are still coming on. I've caught up on some anime. So I'm keeping myself well-distracted.Erin: [laughs] That's good. I think distracted is good. I think--I don't know, I think in the beginning days of all of this it felt, for me at least, a little weird to compartmentalize, or I felt a little guilty, but I actually think that's incredibly healthy, you know, to find moments of just pleasure and delight. That's all we got, right? That's all we got.Zach: I mean, this--the reality is that before this pandemic, like, I was already a homebody. Now, people at work--like, people who know me from work would--they may not know that, because, like, in person, like, I'm a fairly gregarious guy. But, like, you know, people are complex, right? I think, like, we create a lot of these terms and things that aren't really academic or scientific just to kind of better compartmentalize people, like, "You're an extrovert, you're an introvert." It's like, "I mean, I enjoy people, but I also enjoy being alone." Like, I enjoy being at home, being with my wife and now my kid. Like, I'm fine with that. But I'm glad, I'm glad that you're excited. I'm excited and in a good place as well. You know, this would be interesting to do again, like, if our numbers were wildly different, right? So, like, you're a 7, 8, I'm a 7, 8, but if I was, like, a 2, then, like, I wonder how the dynamics of this discussion would look, especially considering what we're talking about.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I think then--and this has happened to me at work, right? Like, I come in low and someone else is high or vice versa. I think then that's the--I mean, that's the point of it, right? It's a moment of pause to figure out what do you need to put aside or do you need to get off this call or how can I support you and give that person who's lower an opportunity to either just share or not or articulate more. I just think it's a great window into "How can we work together towards whatever it is that we need to achieve?" And if now's not the time, fair. You know? We gotta go and come back together when we're both in the right space. I think that happens all the time, we just don't often put numbers to it, right?Zach: I agree, I agree. So look, that actually is a really good segue for us to get into this. Like, this pandemic, it continues to expose and exacerbate all types of inequities, from social to governmental and of course workplace, just all across the board, and I'll tell you, frankly it just feels overwhelming for me to think about holistically, let alone try to address, and so I'm really curious about just, like, considering your role with Upwork, I'd love to hear how your perspective and focuses have shifted as this pandemic has continued, and considering your level within Upwork and, like, the organizational power that you wield by way of your level, I'd love to hear about how power and influence has shaped your praxis.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. Whoo, this could take the whole hour, which, you know, happy, happy to unpack it for that long, 'cause it's deep. It's deep and very real. Like, the quickest answer for me is not that much has actually changed about the objectives that we set out to achieve for this year. How we go about them certainly has had to stay agile and nimble, but in the work that I do that's always the case. I always like to be super responsive to context and not get so [prescriptive?] about how we execute but to kind of keep our eyes on the prize, and so from my personal vantage point, I--especially during the beginning days of this--have never felt more critical than I do right now. You know, I think there's so many external conversations and great thought leaders who have articulated this better, what this crisis has really done, like most crises, is magnify fractures, gaps, inequities, that already existed, and so I've used this really as an opening to accelerate my platform and the work that I'm doing for marginalized folks at our company. So just to dig into it, you know, I did a couple of tactical things once it became clear to me that, you know, "This is serious. This is not the flu. This is gonna change everyone's lives forever," and I don't think that's an overstatement. So once that reality sort of set in, the first thing I did was I revisited these operating principles that I had crafted when I started at Upwork. So I joined the company in December of 2019. I'm only about weeks in, and there's been a lot of change since then, internally and obviously externally, but as a team of one and as the first DIB leader in our organization, I thought it was really important for me to just get anchored on what [?] and, you know, use that decision framework for really [advertising?] how I [fell?] in my role. I think, especially when a role like this is new or especially when someone comes in with a multi-disciplinary background [or] a very strategic lens, folks don't necessarily know what the role is and they kind of fill in their own blanks and make their own stories. So that was important to me, and I revisited those once we started quarantining just to make sure that they were evergreen and [stood up?] in this crisis, and they did, thankfully, and I can put [?] on my name. There's only four, and everything we do is, you know, it's systemic, so #1 is account for the systems and structures we're operating in, and that's, you know, systems and structures within our company and certainly externally as well. So that's #1, definitely holds true today. #2 is everything we do is tailored to the most specific population or the most specific point in the employee experience as possible, and so it kind of goes back to how you introduce the podcast, which is it's basically about centering. We have to get specific. We have to get articulate and discrete about what problem we're trying to solve or what opportunity we're trying to seize, and certainly during public times that's been really critical, and I think that principle holds up. The third is active. So I really wanted to mark that for myself and for others. You know, there's no passive way to do this work. Like, we're gonna have to change some things, and, you know, I think that's intuitive, but also [?] to declare. And then the fourth thing which is super critical for me, and this is where I see a lot of DIBs or DEI, whatever acronym you want to use, professionals flounder a little bit, is being pragmatic and being compelling and cohesive and telling, you know, one story that folks can get behind that also makes sense in the context of the day-to-day decisions and work that they're doing, and I think too often DIBs work kind of exists in a bit of a vacuum, right? It's a little bit of a tag-along or an extra-curricular, and I think that's the piece, you know, during corona times, that I've had to really get critical, even more so with myself, about "[?]," right? Like, do people have the capacity for this new thing or this new structure or this new effort and just really kind of giving grace to the folks who have to carry forward on the strategies, who have to, you know, change their behaviors, because it's a lot to ask even in the best of times, and I want to push and, again, lean into this comfort, but also be gracious with the fact that folks are dealing with a lot right now. So that's one of the things I did, was just, like, double-check on the way that we're going about this work. So relevant during this time. Another thing was just re-prioritizing some of those actual objectives. There were just, like, a couple that, even before corona, were nicer to have, but now it's clear that this is not the year to be working on the frills. It's really--we gotta stick to the essentials in terms of our strategic goals. And then the last thing I'll quickly say is I actually really leveraged the fact that it seems like most folks are becoming kind of armchair experts in academiology these days, right? Like, I'm learning more, more about viruses and how they spread, and I think there's some really interesting--and if I thought about it hard enough there could be a poem out of this, but, you know, I think there's some really interesting overlays between what we're seeing with the virus [Emory makes some noise] and how I think about people and the fact that--hey, Emory! The fact that we are all connected, we're all inter-dependent, and we need to center the most vulnerable. I think, as a society, that's becoming more and more clear, just with the true facts that are coming out from COVID, but it also I think has been what activists and DIBs practitioners have been saying for, you know, decades, and so I think, at least in my company, it sort of seems like there's this window of opportunity to seize on this understanding of centering and equity and disproportionate impact that folks are getting externally and [?] that same framework and understanding through the work that I do internally. I just think folks are grasping it a little bit more easily now than they might have been before this. So that, for me, has been exciting.Zach: That's awesome. And yes, hello, Emory. But no, you're absolutely right. [laughs] You know, what I find curious about this time, or intriguing even, is that because of the real impacts that this pandemic is having with folks that look like us and that don't look like us and the frustrations that come along with that, it's creating avenues for people to have even more frank conversations and to really kind of, like, get past some of the jargon and, like, these super long monologues about whatever and really get into, "No, how can we actually create impact and change and help? Because there are people who actively need help," and I think that's--and I try to be, like, a silver lining type of person, so, like, that's--so I would say that is something that is a positive out of all of this. I do think also, to your point around DEI practitioners, I do think that there's a bit of a gap when it comes to, "Okay, how do we transition from--" And I've talked about this with some other folks in the past. I think we're now doing a decent job of, like, talking about the historicity of oppression, or we'll talk about systemic inequities in, like, these very, like, high level systems that almost seem--like, we speak about them almost, like, in the abstract, right? So we'll say, like, "Well, you know, black men, they have disproportionate--they're targeted by police and da-da-da," and it's like, "Okay, that's true," and I'm not being dismissive of that. "Let's talk a little bit more about the systemic inequities in your workplace though," right? Like, "How can we transition these conversations to be a bit more practical and targeted to the reality of your employees?" And, like, that's--and I get why, you know, there's a variety of reasons why we don't necessarily have those conversations when I don't think we necessarily know how, but then two, like, it's increasingly uncomfortable to have conversations about actual power in your workplace, because then we start looking at individuals, right?Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it's hard, or maybe impossible, not to take, you know, a conversation about power and privilege personally, but at the same time I think where I've seen the most effective work, where I've done the most effective work, is where we actually sort of meet somewhere in the middle. It's about what roles or positions do we hold, how are those products of a greater societal system, and given the seat we're in--it's not really about us. I think it's really about the position. But given that we fill it, you know, what is our responsibility? To disrupt things that before now we weren't aware, you know, we were products of, or now that we are we realize we have a bit of an urgency to leave a legacy or leave things better than where we found them, and I think that's where the activation can happen. That's where we can get [?] without guilting people, right? Without making them defensive. I think it's just the reality of, "Oh, this is all by design, and we're sort of products of this greater architecture. So now what are we gonna do about it?" And if we're not gonna do anything, that's fine too, but then we should stop talking about it. Right? So, like, that's fine. I don't--[laughs] I want to be clear that I don't judge or begrudge that. It's fine. You know, companies and leaders can make those choices, but then stop talking about it. That's where--right?Zach: Yes. That's my rub too. At a certain point it's like, "Look, I'm tired of us talking about diversity being our strength and there not being anybody that looks like me that actually has any type of authority or power." You know, "I'm tired of us always--" Like, not shoehorning in, because no disrespect. We talk about gender in these very, like, binary, exclusionary ways without being intersectional at all with race or sexual identity. We talk about sexual identity in these binary ways without including race. We ignore any race trans identities, particularly trans black female identities. So, like, if we're gonna do this, let's do it. If we're not gonna do it, let's not. It's 2020. Rona or no rona, let's just--let's just be honest. [both laugh]Dr. Thomas: I agree. I mean, you know, that's where folks get disillusioned. That's where, you know, when the word doesn't match the deed, it reads as inauthentic because it frankly is, and I think most companies or leaders within them would be honestly better served to talk a little less about diversity, about inclusion, about equity, [then keep on?], or to raise--you know, raise the bar for themselves, but this weird in-between is just not working, right? It's not working. It's frustrating the folks who are most impacted. And then we see the results, which is very minimal quantitative gains when it comes to actual representation within the workforce. So these things all [?] together. They all relate, so yeah.Zach: They do. Now this is me going off the chart, but it just popped in my--not popped in my head, 'cause I think about it a lot, but we didn't talk about it for this interview. We gotta have you back, Erin, 'cause I really want to talk about in group, out group dynamics and the pressures that marginalized people in positions of authority have to, like, toe the line in that regard or how much they push against to then create inclusive workplaces for people who look like them. 'Cause, like--no, and I recognize that's a big topic, but, like, I just want to say this 'cause it's on the top of my heart and my mind. Like, I've noticed--and I've had these conversations, like, with black folks, like, off the record, right? So, like, in consulting, you know, there's all these different tracks of leadership, and, you know, the highest up is typically managing director or partner, and I've talked to some black partners who I really respect and everything, and I'm like, "Look, how many of you do you meet?" 'Cause the people that I talk to, like, they're with it. Like, they're conscious. They genuinely care. They try to use their access, power and privilege, relative power and privilege, to help other folks that look like them--and I'm talking, like, two people, right? [both laugh] And I asked them like, "Yo, what's going on? Like, why are the rest of y'all a bunch of Clarence Thomases up here? Like, what is this?" And so we had this whole frank discussion about it, but I really want to have you back on, because, like--I don't know. I feel like you and I could have that conversation, but I want to have it because, like--and I had this very... it was not uncomfortable. Wait, let's pause. Everybody stop, everybody. Y'all should know by now. This is, like--we're a couple hundred episodes in, hundreds of episodes in actually of Living Corporate. Y'all know I enjoy awkward conversations, so this exchange I'm about to explain to y'all was not awkward for me. It was awkward for them, okay? It was not awkward for me. So, you know, I had this conversation, and--[Emory makes noise] Oh, goodness, my daughter is loud. Hey, y'all. Y'all, check it out. Y'all hear these vocals by Emory. Don't play. No labels, but, you know, we'll make a SoundCloud soon. So anyway, I was talking to this person and I was like, "Look, the reality is the folks in power only let a certain amount of us in these spaces, okay, and when you see us in these spaces high up, like, to find somebody that looks like us in those spaces who genuinely care, who are not closing doors behind and who are speaking truth to power--" Again, I'm not asking you to come show up in a Kunta Kinte shirt. I'm just saying if you could just--[Dr. Thomas laughs] Okay? If you could just, you know, act like you're black, act like you recognize, you know, experiences. To find those types of people, it's like finding a unicorn with gold teeth, you know what I mean? It's crazy. Dr. Thomas: Yeah, and it's hard for me to speak to personally simply because my role is diversity, right? [both laugh] I'm not here as a [?] professional, I am a diversity expert and researcher. So that's, I guess, a privilege if you will that I hold as a leader in my company, and I recognize that. It was true in my last role too. I was in a consulting firm, and I was on the leadership team, but we were a diversity consulting firm, right? And so even in there you see some of that where, yeah, I had to really reconcile with the fact that I was doing this work and certainly had more latitude to, you know, speak that truth to power than I would if I were in another profession, and at the same time even I find myself vigilant, of course, and protective, of course, of how much is too much, you know? Where do I strike that balance of advocating in ways that people can hear versus that active, you know, operating principle that I called out earlier, you know, [?] folks that healthy discomfort. It's tough. It's a whole level of calculus that I have become I think decent at. I think also though I always--and, you know, we should talk about this another time because we can go real deep into this, right? I always view this dance of, like, on the one hand, any professional--especially any leader--is context switching and code switching all the time, right? Like, that is effective leadership, right? That's effective, but yet when you're a person of color, when you are black--which I can speak to--when you're brown, I think it creates some compunction of, like, "How much of this is playing the game that anyone would play and how much of this is selling out?" And I don't have an answer. I think everyone has their own barometer for that, but it's something I challenge myself on all the time. Like, "What of this feels like me and what of this feels like I'm becoming complicit in something that I don't subscribe to?" And, you know, sometimes I can't really codify when I'm feeling uncomfortable, but I know what I'm feeling, and that's when I have to really check myself and really examine if how I'm showing up or what I'm sharing or advocating is really serving my key audience, which is our marginalized folks at our company.Zach: Yo, so thank you for real. Sound Man, put a little round of applause in here for Erin answering this question off the fly, 'cause we did a pre-production. This was not part of the questions, but it was just something on top of my mind. Thank you so much. Now, look, let's get into this though, because we're just now really at the top of the conversation we planned on having. So look, at the time of us recording this, over 32 million folks have applied for unemployment benefits. At the same time, many companies are trying to retain their employees and keep them engaged in new working environments. I mean, there's even a lot of unofficial conversations happening on companies having pressure to not let go of too many minority employees in the name of just optics and potential legal ramifications. I'm curious, can we talk about this dynamic [?] where tensions may be, particularly for black and brown employees.Dr. Thomas: Sure. I mean, when I hear this question I'm really thinking about it as what are black and brown workers maybe thinking, feeling, [?] with individually if they are still employed, and I think I've seen both--at Upwork it's certainly [?] as well, 'cause obviously I consume research, I consume, you know, thought leadership externally, and I think there's a picture that's sort of forming for me in my head, which is there's a range I think of emotional reactions for folks who are still employed, and I think at its best folks are feeling really grateful of course. Right? It's sort of--going back to operating on a scale of 1 to 10, it's, like, yeah, a very compartmentalized 1 to 10, but, like, we're grateful for the blessings we have, and I think certainly that is true for folks who are in jobs with fair pay and fair benefits. They want to give their all to their employers because their circumstances could be so much worse. And I think especially in, you know, people work, in mission-driven organizations and purposeful organizations, that's incredibly true, you know? I'm seeing more and more come out, for instance, among mental health professionals who are burning out 'cause they're just giving it all. And I think, you know, in normal times it's hard to strike that balance of taking care of others versus yourself, and I think especially now, if folks are lucky to still have some semblance of job security, they're giving a lot, and they're very grateful. I think, towards the more extreme ends of this spectrum of reactions, I'm also seeing certainly some guilt, some comparative guilt, you know, around--there are folks out there who are on the front lines, who are essential workers, who have lost their jobs, and so "Maybe I'm not feeling great about what I'm doing or where I am, but, like, how could I complain?" Right? Like, "How can I explain when--maybe things aren't ideal, but I have so much," and so that's where I start to get--yeah, I get a little nervous about that, but I understand it, right? Like, you won't want to rock the boat right now when employment is so precarious. I think there is, you know, on this extreme end of the spectrum, a bit of grief happening, just--obviously black and brown folks are more likely to have people around them succumbing to this virus, falling ill, being unemployed themselves, and so, you know, folks are at work but breathing different losses that some of their counterparts may not be breathing as directly. And then there's backdrop of fear. Like, even if you feel secure in your job for now, this whole situation is obviously unprecedented. We don't know what will happen to the economy, we don't know what will happen to our companies. And again, the research shows that black and brown folks, and women, are the first to get furloughed, to get laid off, to your point, and we know in secure times black and brown folks are more heavily scrutinized, and I think folks who are still working feel a microscope that may or may not be on them, but it's impossible not to be vigilant about if you're gonna make it out of here with the job you went into this crisis with and if that job is actually the right job for you or if you're feeling beholden to, you know, a vulnerable time in your life. I think it's a very confusing time, but it all goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that it's just magnifying some of the sentiments that folks are always feeling. I think there's an overlay of, like, true uncertainty that is pressing, but I think folks are really trying to just get through the day, trying to keep the jobs they have, and, you know, trying not to encounter some of the secondary traumas that come when you lose that job, that security that you have in place. So I'm seeing a whole swirl of things, and the way they look to me basically is people are tired. They are exhausted. They are burning out and, you know, I think they're taking care of themselves a little less than they used to because it feels a little risky to do that.Zach: You segued really well into my next question about, like, black and brown employees and their experience, and it's funny because I was talking to a colleague about this, talking to a workplace colleague about, like, my own experiences, and I was telling him about, like, you know, "I've had some stresses because I've had some friends who almost fell victim to COVID-19," and, you know, they recovered, you know, but I also have acquaintances whose family members have passed, right? So you're right, like, what's on my mind and the stresses and the drama is--just what's on my mind is different throughout the day, or maybe it's just a little more real. Let me not say that other folks--'cause there have been white folks dying from the coronavirus too. So it's like, you know, not about trying to dismiss one to uplift the other. It's just like, "Okay, this is real for you, and it's even more real for me." And so I'm curious, like, you know, can we talk a little bit about what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees?Dr. Thomas: For sure. I think, you know, first I want to say 1. thank goodness for your friends who have recovered, and 2. I'm very sorry for the losses that are close to you, and to your point, I'm sorry for that for everybody. This is--you know, the backdrop to all of this is just... it's really hard to fathom honestly. It's hard for me to, like, wrap my head around the devastation this has caused, and it's just--it's so painful, and I'm sorry that everyone is going through this in some way, 'cause everyone is affected and is going to be in some way by the physical toll that this is taking on people. To that point, you know, I think there's a few things that orgs can do kind of from the top down. I think there's also things certainly that any individual colleague or manager can do for the folks around them, but I'll talk about this on a couple of levels. Sidebar, I always think of the Nick Jonas song "Levels" whenever I'm thinking about how to approach this work. Zach: Now, hold on, what is the Nick Jonas song--'cause see, the only song I know by Nick Jonas is that "I still get jealous--" You know what I'm saying? "[continues singing]."Dr. Thomas: It's about--I'm trying to think of how it goes. It's about "love has levels." "Levels, levels." I don't know the words.Zach: Come on, Erin. Come on. I hear you with the vocals.Dr. Thomas: I know. I gotta find it, but I like him, and I know he has a song called Levels, and I always think about it. It's like, "Oh, levels, take me higher--" I don't know. Levels take me higher. I don't know. It's a terrible song.Zach: It's a terrible song? Okay. Did he have a black choir in the background? [both laugh] Yo, when Nick Jonas came out there, boy, he came out there and they was like, "I still get jealoous." I was like, "What is going on? Jesus ain't got nothing to do with this." I mean, he's a jealous guy. Anyway, moving forward... [both laughing] Dr. Thomas: I'm gonna have to find it, I'm gonna have to sing it and just send you a little audio clip, 'cause I can't even remember the tune, 'cause it's not a memorable song. Love you, Nick.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Dr. Thomas: You know? From the top down, companies, and really I'm talking about leaders, people leaders, diversity leaders, can take care to do a few things. One is--and I saw this during the earlier days of people sheltering in place. I think it's leveled out maybe a bit, at least from my vantage point, but in the beginning there was a lot of corporate messaging--and I think you even see this still in commercials--of, you know, "We're all in this together," and on its face, cool, cool, cool. Like, right, you want to build camaraderie, you want to cohere folks around a shared sense of community, but if you beat that drum a little too long, especially within your company, I think it can kind of err to the side of being colorblind, right, and really minimizing the disproportionate strain that there actually is on employees of color and on black and brown folks. So I think striking that balance of certainly we're all in this together, and also there are distinct experiences that we know folks are grappling with. It's an important sort of dual approach to make sure that your folks who are black and brown know that they're seen, know that they're recognized for their unique experiences through this and the unique impacts that they're encountering. So that's one thing, just sort of take that multicultural lens to those company communications that you're sending out. I think another thing is, you know, wherever you can creating space for employees to uncover and share more about their specific experiences. So, you know, we did this back in April at Upwork. We partnered with Michelle Kim, who I know is a friend of the pod.Zach: Come on. What's up, Michelle J. Kim? Shout-out to Awaken Co. What's up? [imitating air horns]Dr. Thomas: [joins in, Zach laughs] She's awesome, and we sort of co-facilitated I think a 75-minute conversation with leaders of our Asian ERG(s)--and this is before the data about [?] were coming out with regards to black and brown folks, and the conversation was mostly around--in terms of the media--anti-Asian bias and discrimination and racism, so we seized on the timeliness of that conversation and built out, you know, a virtual forum for our employees to share what they were concerned about, what they were hearing in their day-to-day lives and interactions, and to scale out from that, from those stories to give more context to, you know, why are we seeing this, what is this. This is not unique to this moment in time. This is, you know, a pattern repeating, and really come from a place of urgency to educate our folks a little bit more about historical context and why it matters now and certainly what they can do to disrupt and call out bias in themselves and discriminations they're seeing externally. A third thing is certainly around mental health and benefits and resources to aid folks, you know, who are experiencing trauma and grief. And I don't think this just has to be if you've lost someone close to me. I think in general folks are really struggling obviously with anxiety and insomnia, and there's data coming in on that, and so making sure that your company has the right level and amount of bereavement and [leave?] policies, but also just coaching and support with your EAP if you have one or your [?] and getting them at least to a basic level [?] of providing that 1:1 support for folks and hopefully referring them out to medical providers if they need, you know, more professional coaching. And then the last thing, you know, is related to what you were saying about terminations and lay-offs and all that. Every company should be auditing the decisions they're making this time when it comes to furloughs and risks, making sure that they're looking at that through an equity lens, making sure that they're not just focusing on people's kind of positions in the company or tenure, because black and brown folks tend to sit lower in the org and tend to be earlier in their tenure, so really taking a performance-based approach to that analysis can be helpful in getting out of that sort of hamster wheel of, you know, first in first out when it comes to black and brown folks. So those are, you know, top-down, structural considerations that companies can be taking every day. I think on the ground, peers and managers can be doing some of what we've already role modeled in this conversation. Check in with people, my goodness. Just think about who you haven't spoken to in a while. Think about who you might normally pass at, you know, the water cooler or the coffee station, and if you haven't chatted with that person 1:1 in a minute, you know, Slack them, ping them, whatever you've got in terms of internal messaging systems, call them, pick up the phone and check in. Just see how people are doing, and make sure you create, you know, space to actually hear their answer and to actually respond. So, you know, as opposed to the normal "How's it going?" Like, really ask the question and really wait for the answer and be with that person with whatever they share, you know? I think it's really about those personal connections that we probably took for granted when we were back in an office setting, for those of us who were in offices, and that are harder to actualize now, right? Like, we're all home. We're all behind screens, and so there is no organic water cooler conversation. That means we have to make a little bit more effort to reach out to folks and to show them that we care about them, that we're connected to them and that we're a resource, or that the company has resources, for them whenever they need.Zach: I love it, I love it. Now, Erin, you know that we're about real talk in a corporate world like I said at the top of the show. For the executive leader to this and perhaps rolling their eyes or maybe, like, speed listening and being like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah," like, you know, just kind of being dismissive as to the gravity of this and why this matters. Why should folks have an inclusive and equitable lens during this time, and then what's the potential fallout in your mind if they don't?Dr. Thomas: I have so many reactions to this question. I think, first, if someone's rolling their eyes to this, which... yeah, could be true, I'll just, like, emphatically say that's not my key audience. Like, I'm just not--you know, I'm really not, and I'm just not. That's not my sweet spot. There were times earlier in my career where that was, where I found it fun to really push the business case for equity, business case for diversity. I am not interested in that anymore, and thankfully I'm in an org where I don't have to do that. Like, kudos to those of you who are doing that. Frankly, for me personally, that's ineffective, right? You know, people do not make decisions based on facts or data. So, you know, I could stand here and talk about the research that's been done. You know, Great Place to Work just did a study around [?], right, and they showed that those who focused on inclusion did better during the recession and saw more returns. So, like, I could share all those stats and all that, but it doesn't matter. Like, if you're rolling your eyes, if you are asking why or if, like, it's probably not gonna happen for you. Just call it, you know--because you can Google it, you can ask Siri, you can ask Jeeves, you can do whatever you want to do, but, like--Zach: [laughing] Not ask Jeeves.Dr. Thomas: [laughing] You can go back to Jeeves if you have to, but my point is that this is not how people make decisions. People make decisions emotionally. They do what they want to do and then they rationalize it later. That is a fact. Zach: That is a fact.Dr. Thomas: You know, it is. And that's science. [laughs] And so if you're not in any way emotionally inclined to care, nothing I say, no data point is gonna make you care. So I think that's one thing. Like, I am impatient and frankly, especially with, you know, decades of research that I think has really caught on in industry, we're just past the point of denying the value proposition of diversity. I think it wastes calories. I think it distracts from the meaningful question, which is, like, how we can go about it during this time or, you know, what we should be prioritizing. I think those are fair questions, but if you're, for whatever strange reason, listening to this podcast and rolling your eyes, like, I don't have time for it. I just don't. I don't. And already that was too much time explaining how I don't have time for it. So that's my quick reaction to that. [both laughing] I think those who are kind of, you know, struggling with how to go about this or where to maybe invest less or more, that's incredibly fair. I think that is incredibly challenging. So what I would say there is just--it goes back to what we talking about earlier. I mean, this is life and death, right? It does not get more real in terms of a call to action than this moment in time, and I think every leader should sit themselves down and critically examine what legacy they want to leave, you know? This is the time for companies to demonstrate what living values, living their values actually looks like. It's their time to pressure test, you know, different mantras that companies love to share around, you know, authentic selves at work, or "Bring your whole selves to work," because you saying--it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You're saying those things... well, here's your moment. Here's your moment to [know?] what it really means, and that's true at the company level, it's true at that personal level. Hopefully you're inclined to want to dig more deeply into what actualizing on your commitments actually could mean right now, and I think that's the place to get really serious about where are the potential gaps between what you're saying and doing. And as we said earlier, you know, if you realize "Huh, even in these most dire circumstances, we're maybe not really ready to make the investment that we might need to actually move the needle or create the environment that our people need." Okay. That's a tough conclusion to come to, but okay.Zach: That's responsible though, right?Dr. Thomas: Right. Yeah. I mean, and then okay, well, then you have to communicate that back, but if you have been talking a game for a while and are realizing you want to step it up, that's amazing, and I think from there what you can be doing is really leveraging external leaders--I mean, there's a lot of information, tools that are free. You could certainly and should be always leveraging your internal employees or workers however they want to be leveraged to help you reveal your blind spots. But this is it. Like, this is the moment, and hopefully orgs will really step it up and leave a footprint that I think can last for generations. You know, what companies do now I think is going to reset how people see them in the public light, how people see them as an employer of choice or not, and so it's a critical kind of come to Jesus moment hopefully for leaders and orgs to double down or to de-emphasize the things that we've been talking about for a while.Zach: Yo. Man, I mean this has just been an incredible conversation. I would be remiss not to drop a Flex bomb right here, and then also some air horns, put 'em in right here. Okay, there we go. Erin, before we let you go--before Emory and I, excuse me, let you go, any parting words or shout-outs? I know you've been dropping wild gems this entire time, but I just want to give you one last--you know, where they can find you, what you're excited about with Upwork, anything. Give you time to plug.Dr. Thomas: Oh, goodness. Okay, I did not prepare for this. I have so many people to thank. I would say find me on Twitter. That's it. Please don't try to find me on LinkedIn. I don't respond on LinkedIn. Real talk. It's just too cluttered. So ErinLThomasPhD is my Twitter handle. I would say check out Upwork. I have been a lot of places. I have led diversity within two other organizations before now. I've been an expert consultant. I've seen a lot of what companies are doing, and I wouldn't be at Upwork if I weren't rabidly passionate about what we're doing and about all of the magic ingredients that attracted me to our company. So I'd love for folks to check us out. Come work with us. We're a great, amazing, purposeful company doing great work, with cool leaders like me, so come on through.Zach: I mean, this is the best ad I could imagine. [both laugh] All right, y'all, you know what it is. We're having real talk in a corporate world. I'm saying it, like, three times this time, but you know we amplify and center marginalized, underappreciated, underrepresented, undersupported, underestimated voices at work, and look, you can check us out anywhere, okay? Look, we're all over Barack Obama's internet. You just Google Living Corporate, okay? We're gonna pop up. We're there, okay? We're all over. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Shoot, if you old school and you're like, "Nah, Zach. I gotta go in the browser and type in the domain like a true OG," then I'ma say, "Okay, cool," and I'ma tell you www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all of the Living Corporates except livingcorporate.com, so if you type in livingcorporate.com and Living Corporate does not pop up do not be mad at me, 'cause I told you already we don't got that one. We got all the other livingcorporates, or living-corporate.com--please say the dash, all right? You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us, okay? DMs are wide open. We are not afraid of the random DM. Just hit us up. We'll make sure we hit you back. If you have a listener letter, you know, you could submit it right there. We'll answer it on the show. We got a decent number. We try to get to a critical mass so we can answer a few, and then we kind of make that an episode. Just so y'all you know. It's, like, a peek behind the curtain. Until next time, y'all. This has been Zach, and you've been listenimg to Dr. Erin Thomas of Upwork. Me and Emory are gonna catch y'all later. Emory, you got anything to say? [Emory's silent] Nope? All right, y'all. Peace.

Let’s talk about some financial planning “strategies” that don’t really work (even though some people, even some financial advisors, believe in them). Important Links Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript Of Today's Show: Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome in to another edition of Plan With The Tax Man. Thank you for tuning into the podcast. We appreciate your time. As always, hope that everyone is staying safe and sane out there as we are edging our way back into some levels of normalcy, and with that Tony, welcome in my friend, how are you? You doing okay?   Tony: I'm still doing good. How about you?   Speaker 1: Hanging in there. We are doing the same thing. We are very close to being set free here in our neck of the woods now that we're into mid May, so hopefully we're seeing much, much more [inaudible 00:00:29] all over the place. I thought this go around... We talked last week, or a couple of weeks ago there, about just kind of the state of things, we had a bit of a hiatus due to the coronavirus, but we are doing our podcast regularly again and I thought we would kind of touch on some strategies this week that just don't work.   Speaker 1: A lot of things happening obviously in the world of finance and will continue to happen all through 2020. I think it's just going to be an interesting rocky year of all kinds. I think you and I even talked about that quite a bit last year as the year was winding down. Obviously we did not foresee just how rocky it was going to be thanks to the bug, but we certainly... I think a lot of people just felt like 2020 in general, election year and just a lot of things, it was going to be kind of volatile. So let's talk about a few financial strategies that don't really work, even though they kind of keep finding their way to the forefront of conversations.   Speaker 1: We'll start it with the market. Because of what has been going on in March and in April and all the volatility, you hear questions, you hear people saying tell me stuff like, well since it's being so volatile and work's being the way it's been with the coronavirus, maybe I shouldn't be pumping money into my 401k like I normally would if you're still working, or maybe I should get out so that I don't lose any more then I'll jump back in later when it starts to get better.   Speaker 1: If you tried to do that in late March when it was down 12% one day and up six the next, then down 10 the next, there's no way.   Tony: There's absolutely not. We've been getting a lot of calls on it about just what you said. Everything from, "Well, do you think I should stop contributing to my 401k? Do you think I should move all my money to cash?" I've had clients say I want to open up an investment account and invest in stocks even though that they've never done it before because they feel like the market was way down. Which in theory that's okay, but we've been trying to tell them, well, one, with the 401ks we've been telling people, unless you are in financial dire straights, you need to keep investing in your 401k because obviously you're automatically then buying when things are down because those funds are continuing to buy stocks and bonds and whatnot. So, that's not a good option to try to time that.   Tony: I think what's even worse and what I love to catch people on from a planning point of view is when they say they want to put some money in stocks because they want to buy... And they'll actually give me individual stocks. I had a client who was an accounting client who's never invested before, call me and say, "Well I want to put $20,000 in Dow Chemical." And I said, "Well, why?" And he said, "I don't know. It looks like it's down." I said, "That's it?" And I said, "Well, so what if it goes down more instead of up?" They don't have answers to those kinds of questions. When I try to draw them out on that I say, "Timing the market like this generally doesn't work for us individuals very well." Information is happening so fast and just with a few little stocks, especially what they want to do really is they want to make a very fast gain. I attribute it to almost like go and throw a couple chips out gambling.   Speaker 1: Well yeah, because you see some of these... Especially, obviously now here into May, it's stabilized a bit more, but in late March there everything's dropping, there are those folks who can smartly say, "Hey look, it's down. This is a good time to buy." And that's true. It is, it can be. Now, every time horizon is different and if you're getting closer to retirement, all those kinds of things you've got to factor in and you've got to talk with your advisor about how it's going to affect your plan. But a lot of people were kind of doing that, oh well this particular stock is way, way down. But I think that's going to...   Speaker 1: I don't know, let's just use cruise ships for an example. Right? You know, they're taking a beating so should we get in on them because, I don't know, six months from now or whatever, they'll be killing it when things get back to normal or whatnot. Again, maybe, but that's being speculative. So if you're going to do that, as an advisor, Tony, if somebody is really interested in doing that, is that how you approach the conversation? Do you say, "Look, that's fine if you really have your mind set on it, but let's make sure it's not affecting retirement plans or the overall investment strategy. Let's make that the speculative money and not get too crazy."   Tony: Exactly, and that's what we tell them, especially if we haven't worked with them before and we don't have any idea what their real financial situation is. I've actually told clients, I won't work with you. Because if this is a little bit of speculation money and you want to do that, then there's some strict criteria that I'll go through with them to say that, first of all, I want to know what your financial situation is to know that you're not just playing with money you should not be. Number two is, I want to know, if you can't tell me, then I'll tell you what your buy and sell disciplines are because us as financial planners, some people look at us still as the old stock brokers where we're all sitting and we have inside information or we're watching charts that they don't see. All this stuff's public now.   Tony: We as advisors are not that role. I certainly am not. I know most advisors aren't, is we're trying to help people get to their end goals. I tell them, for example, I said, "Let's say you put $10,000 into this stock and let's say that it goes up, I don't know, in let's say a year, a hypothetical, and it's now worth $15,000. Nice gain. Very nice gain. But is $5,000 really life changing to you in the big picture? I would say in most cases not. Yeah, it's nice to have, but at the same time, well you lose 5,000 and now you're devastated." I try to get them thinking of the bigger picture and trying to not get them trying to be a stock picker.   Speaker 1: And that's another strategy that doesn't work either. Timing the market, picking the stocks. I'm glad you brought that up. That was actually on my list. It doesn't really matter what, I guess, economic era we're in or what's going on, those are some, not tried and true, but those are some believed methods that just continue to permeate and they never really work.   Tony: They don't work. I mean, people want to try to pick individual stocks as in my example. I've had a couple clients call and what they were looking at was the airlines. The airline, they're way down, travel's way off. Airlines are volatile industry and they always are. I try to stress to them and tell them that may be the case, but I think you're going to have to be really patient and be able to say, I got to give this two, three, four, five years possibly before these things really... And that's assuming that they have good financials and the economy stays good.   Tony: There's so much that goes into that. I always like to tell them, if I was an expert stock picker, I certainly wouldn't be working, nor would the guys, I believe sometimes on Wall Street.   Speaker 1: You'd be sitting on your island and enjoying all your...   Tony: I'd be sitting on a yacht somewhere. It's a slow steady growth. While I think yes, there are some people that can make some fast money, I think for the average person, it's just not going to be that possible. If they do, then that's going to be the one time in a long time. You can't get in that mindset why, geez, this is pretty easy. I can do this every couple of months or every year and I'm going to be set.   Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know, it'd be like the lottery or lightening striking, right? If you do happen to get lucky and hit one one time, I imagine that's got to be tough because it could be much like a drug and you're like, I'm going to do that again. But the odds are just astronomical. So, proper planning to ensure that your... It's like anything. It's like making a budget when you first had a family or whatever the case is. You've got all these things that you say, okay Christmas time when you first have a family and you're building your family, you're like, well we can't go overboard on the kids at Christmas because A, we're setting this precedent and B, we want to make sure that we don't mess up our budget for regular life.   Speaker 1: We learn as we're going through these things, and so as we get closer to retirement or we're pre-retirees or whatever, and we're doing investing, we want to make sure that we have that good base built that's going to take care of us as we age. But yeah, I get the understanding, the itch to want to speculate a little bit, but just make sure you're doing it responsibly and it's something you can afford to lose.   Tony: That's exactly it. And my last story there really, the same client that asked me about Dow Chemical, in the same conversation said he had went out and Googled, if you had bought, of course everybody does this with some of these stocks that I'm talking about. Apple, when it first came out and you still held it today you'd have this many millions of dollars. My first point to him was, "Well, very, very few actually buy something like that and hold it for this long."   Tony: And I said, "But if it goes to prove though, if you are and do have the discipline to do that, that's how you're rewarded." But many, many don't. As soon as they make a little money, boom, they're out and then they're onto something new and then that one, they lose money and then longterm instead of having a lot of money basically have what you started with or worse.   Speaker 1: Well, investing is a marathon, right? Not a sprint.   Tony: A marathon. That's exactly it.   Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So those are two strategies right off the bat Tony, that are again, they show up all the time, they just really don't work. Timing the market, picking the right stocks. Another one is the whole... And we're going to continue on through, we won't focus on just the investment, we won't focus on some other things as well, some other strategies.   Speaker 1: The whole taking care of each other thing. So my wife, I'm 50, my wife's just a couple of years behind me. We have the conversation every now and again. But you have these people who will say, "Well we're not going to have to worry about a nursing home because we're going to care for one another, our kids are all help out," whatever that kind of scenario looks like. I don't know if that's just fear of talking about or dealing with the potential to think the term "nursing home," which, and that might not even be a nursing home, it might just be a longterm care event in general. Or if it's just the mortality thing or what it might be, but that seems to be a really shortsighted way of looking at things because...   Speaker 1: My wife will say to me now, she's like, "There's no way I can..." I've got a bad back and she's like, "I can't pick you up when you're on the ground now when I'm 45 and healthy, how could I do it when I'm 70."   Tony: That's right. And we get a lot of people that I think for some they'll immediately when you start talking about it, they want to not talk about it because they're denying the fact that they're ever going to need this. But if they can get past that, then a lot of them immediately look to longterm care insurance. I've heard of that. I cringe. It's too expensive and I'm never going to use it. Then to others, really that may not make sense, but you need to at least have a plan in place of what you'll do if one or both of you need some kind of care and be able to have that plan and have it shared with others as you age and whatnot.   Tony: Because I think for a certain segment of the population, I think it comes down to income in a lot of situations. I think people at the lower end of the income spectrum probably don't need longterm care insurance. A, they can't afford it and B, if they need care, they're probably going to be on Medicaid if it's longer term. The problem with that though is many people don't need that long longterm care, they can just need in home care, they need care of some kind and that they have to plan for that somehow. Whether it's federal assistance, whether it's some kind of reduced policy. Then there's people on the other end of the spectrum that have a lot of assets and a lot of money, probably can self-insure most of the time. If you're above a certain amount then maybe you don't have that need, but you still have to have a plan.   Tony: Here's how it's going to work, here's what's going to happen, here's how it's going to happen. But it's everybody in between, which is the bulk of us. It is, well I probably am not going to qualify for Medicaid. I don't maybe have enough to self-insure for five years. I need to have a policy just like I do on my home or my auto and I just have to live with it. I just bought one on myself and my wife and I'm just now going to be 53 this June. I had put that out there, but it's still relatively inexpensive and it's just something we felt we had to have watching my wife's mom go through it without any insurance. Basically the kids trying to take care of her and it was five years of... And anybody that's been through it will tell you, torture, mental torture and it's tough to watch.   Speaker 1: No, it's definitely tough to watch that. The same analogy, if you break that down to saying well, the kids are going to help take care of us. I mean that's putting a lot on family strain and individual. So again, that's a strategy that just doesn't work. Really take the time to talk with your advisor. It's not a pleasant conversation but a little forethought can just stave off a lot of heartache later on to discuss what you're going to do in the event of some form of longterm care requirement. The reality is it's one in three people I think. So, it's something you just have to discuss. We'll hit one more here on our episode this week, and it kind of falls into that same line Tony a little bit.   Speaker 1: My mom is kind of guilty of this. I'm guilty of this a little bit as well. But, basing or guessing, I suppose, at your retirement planning process, your longterm care needs around the assumption that your life will mirror your parents or your family history, the hereditary of it. Most of the men in my family do pass away before 70 so I tend to ride this thought that I will probably die a little earlier, maybe in my seventies. Maybe I'm kind of giving myself the medical advances and saying well I'll probably get into my seventies, but I don't foresee 80 coming down the pike. But with that being said, I'm trying to plan as though I will make it to a 100.   Tony: Yes. I think that's a good assumption is to plan that you are going to live into your mid to late eighties and even beyond because that's, I don't want to say worst case scenario, because usually that's a good thing depending on the quality of life you have. But, from a financial standpoint is a good thing because you want to make sure that you don't run out of money, and that's every retirees fear is just getting up into those ages and maybe you do run out of money and you can't work at that point. I think that some of us tend to look at this too literally and just mirror that and say, "Well, I'm only going to live this long so I'll go ahead and my retirement should be okay because I'm going to spend this much."   Tony: Then they outlive that guess, and they end up with a different type of lifestyle. I think on the flip side too, this is just a personal opinion, I'd love to live into my mid to late eighties which should be great. But obviously, and I think we all want the same thing, we want that quality of life that we have in forties fifties. For a lot of us that just isn't going to be there. It's not anything we've done. The body is going to potentially fall apart, who knows? Are we coming down with some chronic disease? The lifestyle may not be what you had hoped for. So I do think there's a delicate balance there, that you obviously you want to live in the moment while planning for that old age to make sure you don't run out of money.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a good point. I imagine from multiple standpoints, whether it's health or wealth, I imagine you don't have too many people calling you and saying, "I want to work on a retirement plan where my lifestyle is less in retirement than what it was going into it." So you do have to kind of plan your way through those things. From a health side, obviously we've got this interesting new element that we were all dealing with here this last six, seven weeks, but it's still one of those things where we have to focus on that as well. Being active and all the things, and overall societally we are. We are living longer. We are living better for the most part prior to this thing happening. For the most part, everybody is doing a little bit better in a lot of cases.   Speaker 1: Sure there are markers, there are hereditary markers that can, I guess, impact your health, but it's not the be all end all. The medicine that and the treatments that my grandfather and my father got is not the same that I'm getting. So you got to bear that in mind.   Tony: Exactly.   Speaker 1: Yeah. All right. I think that's a good podcast to kind of leave people with some thoughts to think about. It's easy to kind of get pulled into these conversation pieces, these financial strategies that just kind of continue to hang around that people talk about a lot. Timing the market, picking stocks, putting your head in the sand when it comes to the longevity of life or the lifestyle, but they're never a good strategy.   Speaker 1: Do yourself a favor. Do your retirement a favor. Talk with your advisor, work with an advisor, and talk with yourselves as well. A great place to go is having an initial conversation about some of these things with your loved ones and making sure you're on the same page and then planning through that with an advisor like Tony Mauro, which is why we call the show Plan With The Tax Man. So, if you need some help, you got some questions, at this point you should know what to do, but if you don't, I'll tell you again, it's (844) 707-7381. That's how you can call him and let him know you want to chat. That's (844) 707-7381. With everything going on, you can have a phone conversation, you could have a virtual meeting. There's lots of things happening so you can still take some action.   Speaker 1: But if you are working with Tony or you know someone who might benefit from the message and you have not yet subscribed to the show, we would certainly appreciate it. You can just simply go to yourplanningpros.com. You'll see the podcast page there. You can check out Tony's website, a lot of good tools, tips, and resources. And of course, while you're there, you could subscribe to the show. You could also just search Plan With The Tax Man on Apple or Google or Spotify or whatever platform you choose. We would certainly appreciate it. And with that, Tony, I'm going to let you go this week, but have a safe, sane week and I will talk to you real soon.   Tony: All right, you the same and take care until next time.   Speaker 1: We'll see you next time right here on Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro.

I discuss the connection between perceiving lack of variety in food made from scratch and feeling miserable and bored under lockdown, despite having access to all the world's art, music, literature, and culture ever recorded and more material abundance than kings only a few generations ago, despite our material abundance being only slightly less than a few months ago.Here are the notes I read from for this episode:Yesterday recorded episode with Rob and my stepfatherTalked about food variety, said mine lacked varietyOnly tried three timesPeople always see theirs as varied, others as notPeople say I don't like Chinese or Indian, billions, huge varietyI see McDonald's and Taco Bell as sameCount Chocula versus Froot LoopsI made something with broccoli versus zucchini or cauliflower as differentI see industrial food as the salt, sugar, fat, convenience treatmentAdd sugar versus add salt, people see as different, but to me corn flakes and Fritos are basically the sameSupermarket carries same things year-round. Seems like variety because at any given moment lots of choicesBut once the prime pleasure becomes salt, sugar, fat, convenience, same to me.Because there's the raw flavor, which can differ, but we've reduced that variety to monocrops so only a few varieties of mango here, despite abundance in nature, and zero radishes for most peopleTo me variety among apples is huge, which I cherishGerman beer law -> abundance and just local ingredients is huge compared to their fourPeople lived since dawn of our species on local ingredientsWhen did we become so entitled that we should get anything we want whenever, wherever?What's so bad about not having berries every damn day?A farmer nearby wants to provide food for me and youInstead a large part of your money goes to Saudi Arabia for fuel, Madison Avenue for advertising, Wall Street for finance, and Venezuela for farmer now not feeding their peopleSo my parents, who have lived here for over a decade, say there's nothing available local this time of yearIt's like someone who played loud music their whole lives to deaf saying there's no bird songsThe human aspect is important to me. I would probably eat meat, which until just before this time of year would be our option, and we'd cherish it, not take it for granted and ship from all over the worldThen treat with salt, sugar, fat, convenienceSo no, I don't consider Filet-o-Fish as different than a burger, nor Taco Bell as different from McDonald's, Olive Garden, etcThey all treat the raw ingredients as commodities.I want to treat them as a painter treats paints on a palette or a musician treats notes on a scale. A piano has 88 keys. A trumpet three valves.No variety?Let's get to bigger picture.I've also come to see our educational system as equally tone deafSome will see history as completely different subject than economicsOr even humanities as different than scienceEven there, most humanities people will see math and physics similarMost science will see history and philosophy as similarTo me, if they all teach the same skills of reading, listening, taking notes, analyzing how they teach to analyze, but not to learn their own values and create own skills, teaching the same complianceThat most Americans or people in East and West, when confronted with new problem, can't helpMandela, in prison 27 years, lived more free in 10x10 foot cell with forced labor than people today.How do I know? Because he created his happiness despite few raw ingredients, yet people today with much more comfort, convenience, and variety feel depressed and bored.I learn from Thoreau, who lived off the land. Read Walden and Civil Disobedience. People today miss the point by saying he interacted with people. He found that being put in jail for not paying taxes to avoidsupporting slavery and an unjust war made him more free.People who emerge from our educational system learn dependence, not independence. Rob complains about system and as best I can tell spends his time in solitude trying to find how someone is causing his problems rather than appreciating nature that no matter how we try to dominate it, will never go away nor be weaker than us.With zero evidence constructs a world view that Chinese labs were trying to hurt him. Mandela learned to relate with and help the people imprisoning him, realizing the problem wasn't the people, but the systemPeople make themselves depressed, despondent, angry, and such unable to apply their compliance and analysis to understand a situation beyond what school taught.Victor Frankl lived a life of more happiness and bliss in Auschwitz, or Jean-Dominique Bauby, the guy from The Diving Bell and the Butterfly who suffured a stroke that led to him devoid of voluntary control of any muscles except his left eyelid and who wrote a book that became a bestseller and a movie that won awards, He did it by connecting with the people around him.They lived more variety and happiness than people today who want to riot when they only have access to all the food in the world, all the world's knowledge, video to anyone and everyone, all the art, music, literature, movies, ever recordedAs well as the tools for themselves to recreate those works or even make their ownSo go ahead and call my bowl of cereal one day with a bartlett pear and the next with an anjou pear lacking variety while your Wheatiesdifferent than your Spaghetti-os, which I see as the sameWhile you complain, plan to riot against people suggesting you live with slightly less material abundance than yesterday, by your own prideful boasting greater than kings of only a few generations ago, and sink into depression and rageMiss out on seeing that the same process happens with travel as with food. Just as they industrialize food to produce what superficially looks like variety but beneath the surface is monotony, people's actual experience of Italy versus China have become as different as different sections of Disney World, while they can't see the nuance between going on a bike camping trip versus spending a week to learn bike mechanics. Or they can't see that spending a week on a meditation retreat might change their lives more, despite probably less emissions, than crossing another item off a bucket list that is actually less photogenic than the million pictures on the net, that they degrade by going and also degrade where they came from.Or even as my stepfather describes meeting the people or the land in faraway places, while missing out that his very own childhood createdthe same results by going places on foot, miss out that the variety and diversity of people is everywhere.My greatest recent vacation was the day, just to see if I could, I got on my rowing machine and rowed a marathon---that is 26.2 miles.You would say I didn't leave my apartment and with disdain say I missed seeing Macchu Piccu or some other thing beyond my physical horizon, while I found myself, physically, emotionally, and made myself more able, more creative, less needy, physically, emotionally,intellectually.It wasn't just a day but a journey, since a month earlier I had rowed half a marathon for the first time, that feat a couple months after seeing people do it during the crossfit games, which I found researching a guest on my show who won the crossfit games after winning a gold medal in the Olympics, whom I met from another guest on the podcast from several months earlier who had won the Americas Cup, whom I met from learning to sail, which I learned to cross the Atlantic because I challenged myself not to pollute by not flying.While most Americans seem unable to put two and two together to see the opportunity to create the joy, happiness, bliss, community, andconnection that someone the Nazis tortured, that Apartheid tortured, and whose stroke deprived of voluntary control created.You think they're dead. Some of you probably think they're dead white males, as one entitled student described my heroes including Mandela, MLK, and Gandhi. I find them more alive than probably you find alive most of your Facebook connections including possibly your spouse, as Rob tells me many people are looking to divorce as they meet their partners more.So go help bankrupt your local farmers, saying they can't provide you with food in the winter and help support despotic regimes and a system making more despotic regimes, lying to yourself that you aren't contributing to itAnd lament that after the vaccine everything will return to normal despite connecting with people around you more, as the guy I mentioned to Rob that my step-father and I talked to yesterday told of finally learning that his son was languishing in school, but flourished when his own father actually spent time with him.His father said he wouldn't go back to the old way.He could have learned about his son any time. Why didn't he? He was busy. He had time for things not his son but not his son.Compliance-based education may have resulted in a child getting an A, but not knowing his father, or rather knowing his father doesn't have time for him but does put him in a place that bores him.Teaching below him more likely led to him getting a low grade, not high, less factual understanding which nobody cares about anyway, and shoved down learning experientially value, meaning, and purpose, connection, family, ability, creativity, initiative, and what makes life abundant.Now he has less, but he's finding more, he's creating more.He says, as you have the capacity to, that he would have changed earlier, had he known.Reverting back to before means you are passively accepting the compliance and impotence that supports those regimes, keeps you stupid however vaunted your degrees and able to regurgitate information but not tell the difference between radish varieties to where you call salads with two different varieties lacking varietyAnd you would have reacted as I would on mentioning putting pears in cereal, that I won't because pears' flavors are so nuanced and delicate that I would rather eat my oats plain in order to savor the pearsExcept when they're in peak season and so abundant and cheap that I feel richer than a king when I indulge in them, appreciating the abundance of nature, not the scarcity of soul in your supermarkets and convenience restaurants, however crispy on the outside and tender on the inside, and your prepared restaurant meals full of pleasure bereft of feeling.Now watch your farmer sell his land and pay some Saudi prince while you make yourself powerless to love and spend time with your child when restrictions decrease and you can do what you want.Go complain and use your compliant, entitled dependence to turn greater material abundance and prosperity into emptiness of meaning and purpose and feel superior to my walking four miles to meet a guy in person who can tell me where my local farmers will sell me a rutabaga you wouldn't deign to eat as it lacks variety, while my life overflows with abundance of meaning, purpose, sensory delight, and even amid this tirade love.I have to admit as I write and speak the word love that I'm hit with humility, what little I have, that my poor rhetoric and reflection haveled to a tone accusatory and condescending.Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm fooling myself. But I'm sharing not to put down but to invite you to try, not sample or visit, but sincerely, authentically, and genuinely try to live this way for a while.Maybe start with food. For a week or two go for nothing packaged, no added salt, sugar, fat, nothing made extra convenient. Cook everything from scratch, maybe more than a week or two, until you master it, which may take months and will make you as sore as someone using muscles for the first time in their lives, but when strengthened will enable you to achieve more than ever.I predict you'll wish you had earlier, that you'll connect with your world, community, and family more than you thought possible, that you'llopen yourself to learning, growing, and connecting.If after you master local foods you return to Cracker Barrel, please teach me why, because I'll have something to learn from you.I predict instead you'll want to share what you've learned with others, and you'll be able to do the greatest thing anyone can about our environmental problems, greater than not flying, greater than avoiding packaging, greatest of all: you can lead others---people, communities, corporations, and governments -- to love, honor, and steward nature, which includes us. 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Most runners experience what's known as a "runner's high." Maybe I'm not fast enough to get that euphoria.  But on a recent run I decided to find perspective in the things I don't enjoy. In this episode, we'll cover: How to defeat mental monsters An alternate look at what "winning" means Preparing for the unexpected The ultimate goal of life

Music fans generally agree that the experience of seeing musicians perform live can be the greatest experience music can offer. The way the members of an orchestra or a band can play off each other and feed off an audience's enthusiasm often results in an experience one can remember for life. The problem is that all too often that energy doesn't get translated as a recording....the moment has been and gone, and we're left with an album that doesn't bring out the experience for those at the show (and often includes the cheating that often goes on with post production). Welcome to episode 133 of Love That Album podcast. (Maybe) I'm amazed that I've never done a show devoted to favourite live records....the ones that DO give some idea of what it was like to be there on the night. I put out the call to the other podcasters in the Pantheon Network and asked if anyone wanted to talk to me about their favourite live albums. As it turns out, I had to push back to a couple of shows to another date....such was the great response that I received. Tune in and find out what the following people had to say about a favourite nominated live record: Peter Ferioli (conspirator behind Pantheon and future host of a show I'll let him reveal) Ty Lisson (host of The Band: A History) Joe Wroblewski and Ryan Dixon (hosts of Highway Hi Fi) Christian Swain (host of Rock and Roll Archaeology and Deeper Digs In Rock) Markus Goldman (co-host of The Imbalanced History of Rock and Roll) Brad Page (host of I'm In Love With That Song) I spoke with the hosts individually about their picks and was able to get to the crux of what they appreciated in a live album and their picks in particular. My huge thanks and gratitude to these wonderful people for their time and discussion. You can download this episode of LTA from Spotify, Stitcher or iTunes (search for “Love That Album podcast”). Love That Album is proudly part of the Pantheon Podcast network. Go to http://pantheonpodcasts.com/ to check out all their great shows. You can send me feedback at rrrkitchen@yahoo.com.au (written or mp3 voicemail) or join the Facebook group at http://www.facebook.com/groups/lovethatalbum. If you’d consider writing an iTunes review we’d be immensely grateful. However, it’d be even better if you told a friend about the podcast and Pantheon – at a (socially distanced) barbecue, over coffee (on Skype), on social media….whatever way you choose, consider me grateful.

What can startup founders learn from the marketing strategies of high growth, silicon valley tech companies? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Traction Hero founder Kate Walling talks about her experience helping VC-backed tech startups develop marketing and business strategies, and the specific things she recommends they focus on to achieve exponential growth. Highlights from my conversation with Kate include: Kate advises early stage tech companies on their marketing and business growth strategies. When she starts working with a new company, the first thing Kate looks at is the product and business model to determine whether there are opportunities to use product-led growth. After that, she evaluates the company's brand and positioning within the industry, and then focused on the sales team. One strategy that Kate has seen several companies use successfully to drive growth is community, and specifically building a community of their customers, users and fans and allowing that community to mostly self-moderate. To be successful, Kate says marketers need to be a part of the larger corporate strategy conversations around what the product is, how it will be positioned, what the tech stack is, and how sales will go to market. Another effective way to raise your brand profile is to work with industry influencers. Kate says that these do not always have to be paid relationships, and that its important for your marketing team to be aggressive in building relationships. If you have a small budget, one of the best ways to gain early traction as a founder is through a personal email newsletter. This is a strategy employed by many of the accelerators. Send it to friends, family, former colleagues, etc., but NOT clients, and share your journey as a startup founder. You can also use this to ask your audience for help and introductions. PR is another good way to get the word out at a low cost. While you can always hire a PR agency, there are plenty of opportunities for you to directly pitch yourself to local media, and you can subscribe to HARO and respond to those pitches at no cost. Tools like Canva are handy for making marketing collateral that looks like it was created by a designer but really uses templates to look professionally made. Kate's advice to founders is not to try and take on too many things. Find a few channels and platforms that are a good fit with your audience, do them well, test and iterate. Resources from this episode: Visit Kate's personal website Check out the Traction Hero site Email kate at kate[at]katewalling.com Following Kate on Twitter @katewalling Listen to the podcast to get specific strategies you can use as a startup founder (whether you have a big budget or a small one) to hit your growth goals. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and today my guest is Kate Walling, who's the founder and CEO of traction hero. Welcome Kate. Kate Walling (Guest): Hello Kathleen. I love your podcast. Kate and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Thank you. I'm excited to have you here. I am going to do a little bit of an announcement for my listeners before we dig in. Um, if you have listened to my last few episodes, you might've heard this, but it's late March, the coronavirus pandemic is happening. We are recording on Zoom and Zoom is having some bandwidth issues. So just saying, if you're listening, be patient with us. If the audio gets a little funky from time to time, we're going to do our best and hope that Zoom holds up for us as we go. But, these are interesting times we're living in. Lots of people working remotely, lots of people using video conferencing software. So it is what it is. But with that said, welcome Kate. Can you please tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and Traction Hero? About Kate Walling and Traction Hero Kate: Absolutely. So let me try to make this the short version of the story. I've been an entrepreneur since a really young age. I started my first startup at 23, which was a consumer facing startup. I've kind of been an entrepreneur since then, although I've had a corporate stint. I'm in the middle because at one point I realized that being an entrepreneur from a young age means that you don't understand corporate structure and you just hit some walls because you have a lack of understanding. So I've also worked in a public tech company here in Silicon Valley and now I'm back with Traction Hero, which is a marketing agency for startup companies where right now we provide a lot of tech companies with on demand services just as they need it. So basically they can email with a quick project they need done and we turn it around in a couple of hours. So it's really good for companies that have large budgets, but not enough team. Basically there's a lot of those. And then we're also slowly building out services that are really focused on the deliverable so that startups can say, "I need a market research study done" or "I need a new identity." Everything is focused toward what needs to happen to get that done. So as you know, when you're doing a lot of projects, you've got to have a writer, a designer, a printer, all these different people, and it's very stressful for marketers. There's not really been a solution so far where they can just cross that thing off the list and know that the whole thing is getting done. So that's what we're working toward, is really solutions that help marketers get stuff done as they need it.  Kathleen: I love that you personally have been a startup founder and that you've done a lot of work with startup founders because I'm personally passionate about that. I have been a business owner. I've started a couple of different businesses. Having walked in the shoes of the founder, I think you described it so well where there's so many things that need to get done. And that's just from a marketing standpoint, right? You're wearing all the hats when you're in a startup. You could be the owner, the chief salesperson and the marketer as well as other things. And in those early days it can be really hard to zero in on, what are the most important things I should be doing in order to gain traction? That is one of the reasons, FYI, that I love your company name. You stay focused without falling victim to shiny object syndrome or you know, working so much in the business and not on the business, et cetera. It's a challenging, challenging time. Kate: It is. And I think, you know, marketing's been already challenging for a number of years because the MarTech stack keeps getting larger and, and Silicon Valley, the budgets keep getting larger, but your team size doesn't. But marketing is getting more and more responsibility for profit and loss. So there's a lot of pressure and I think what I hear from clients is, what you're saying, is that this was a different style with Traction Hero. And that's because I've personally been through the technology accelerator programs. I am on my fourth startup. I really know what it's like. The interesting thing is that I started this agency model in Seattle. I built an agency in Seattle before I came down to Mountainview California and the model works so well, so it's called scrappy face and it was scrappy, right? And we just went in and we helped these funded tech companies and we just moved as fast as we could. And we had a great team. I closed the agency because I went through a divorce and growing a company really quickly in the middle of a divorce in a city that was always raining is brutal to say the least. But the model was so interesting and when I went into corporate tech, what I realized is that I kind of thought their needs would be different. What I saw was just maybe limited, but it really wasn't, it was pretty much the same concerns of "I've got money, I don't have enough people to spend it." You know, "I don't have enough hands." And then marketing has gotten so specialized that you can't possibly hire enough people to do all these things well, like they can't be experts at everything. So, you know, I'm a big proponent now of having smaller marketing teams, but knowing how to get more done quickly and having whatever workforce you need, that's really fluid. Kathleen: I love that.  should take a step back because this topic, when you talk about startups, I feel like it's a Rorschach test because the word "startup" can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. And for some people, they hear "startup" and they think little, you know, two or three person company. And yes, of course every startup has to start somewhere. But then there are startups that are incredibly well funded, VC funded, that go from being one or two people to 20 to 30 people within a span of a month. When I think the conversation we're having, it's more around that high growth startup, not that little company that's gonna slog along for five years. We're talking about, you know, startups that have a lot of potential that need to move fast. I think that's really key here. That's the experience I've had working in startups, is that it's all about speed, especially if you're looking for investment. Because as soon as you bring on investors, there are high expectations. There are benchmarks you have to hit. There are thresholds that you need to get to. And all of that needs to happen really quickly. And you're right, you know, you couldn't possibly hire enough people to do that and you can't have a team that includes the world's best in everything, right? Because you'd need to segment out each little thing you do and hire a different person for it. So what's the best way to move ahead? And the other element of that that, I think, is so interesting is this need to balance brand with demand generation because those are two really important components. And especially if you're in a high growth startup, you absolutely need demand generation. There is no company that doesn't, but brand is really important these days. How early stage startups can quickly gain traction Kate: So like, yeah, how do you do all the things? It's so hard and I mean, you bring up a great point first. Defining "startup" is important. I think right now I do tend to concentrate on the tech startups that are scaling and have money. I also tend to help entrepreneurs that are somehow very well resourced and there's an opportunity that needs to move quickly. Those were the fun ones. That can be anywhere. It's like there's been a regulatory or legal change and so it's presented this opportunity and you've got to go fast to take advantage of that opportunity. So that looks different different ways, but it's typically those two categories in terms of entrepreneurs who are working on a smaller project or evolving it. There's so many tools now that they can use that would save them so much money that I think just having that right tool stack is a better situation. But back to your question about balancing brand and demand gen. It's super hard and I think what I used to do is go month by month, quarter by quarter in my corporate role and say "What are the business objectives here? And so what does what makes the most sense?" So if all of a sudden the sales team is growing from 40 to 90, right? I've got to get the demand gen up and going. I've got to get tools in place to deal with that. And that evolves into other things like what type of sellers are they? How are these tools going to work together? Whereas if the brand is newer or there's been a change in the industry or there's some kind of potential in terms of content or positioning, you go on the brand side. I think you just have to kind of reevaluate it every several weeks when you're, when you're at scale, when you're trying to work with scale. Kathleen: Yeah. It's funny that you say that because I think the last month or two have been the best example of why it's important to reevaluate every few weeks because I can speak for myself. I had a beautiful 90 day marketing strategy that I finished at the end of January. I'm a big believer in planning in quarters and adjusting in months. And so I had the strategy put together and I was starting along my merry way, implementing my strategy and then coronavirus hit and blew it all up. I feel like I, I, you know, I want to do air quotes, "go into work every week." You know, I'm not going anywhere. I'm working out of my house right now. And the priority is constantly changing based on the current fire. And I say that not meaning that like, the house is on fire and the company's in jeopardy. That's not our case. In fact, oddly we have an increase in demand because of what our product does. But, it's about pivoting and shifting and recognizing now it's all about remote work and you know, that sort of thing. And that's different than what I had planned out, but when things are moving fast, you gotta be able to go with it. Kate: You do. And I think, you know, in terms of the virus, it's the emotional roller coaster for us personally. It's the same with business. And I think it's that way with most parts of businesses, right? It's like, "Oh, I don't know if I have enough toilet paper. I don't know if I have enough this or the National Guard is moving in," you know? So it's like, every day, assessing where things are and what your needs are. And I'm seeing that with my clients. The first week was about "What should we be doing? Should we do a campaign?" So we do an email and alert people of what services we're changing. Now it's moved to, "Okay, competitively, what do we need to do? What's going on in the industry? What's the overall campaign, you know, with our overall strategy here?" And that strategy ends up being not just marketing, that's the whole business offering. We need to move products. But marketing from my observation right now, which is, you know, limited in the grand scheme of things, marketing is driving some of those business questions, right? Because you can't go to a marketer right now and say, "I need you to do something about this virus." The marketer has to say, "Well wait, what are we, what are we offering here?" You can't just throw together some kind of campaign or ad without meaning. I mean, this is not a, um, you know, "throw a graphic on it" type of problem. How do VC-backed startups approach marketing? Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely. So let's put the pandemic aside for a minute because I feel like we could have an entire episode on that and I may need to do that at some point soon. My curiosity has been peaked by what you said about how you tend to work with these well-resourced, need-to-move quickly, but potentially bandwidth-constrained companies. I think what is really interesting about that is that a lot of marketers see those kinds of companies that do grow really fast and they think, "What are they doing? What is the secret sauce? What's happening behind the scenes that's enabling them to go so quickly?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect it's not that they're just throwing money at the problem. It has to be more of, yes, you need money, but what are you going to do with that money that supports a really high growth kind of scenario? So maybe you could talk a little bit about that and pull back the curtain on, if somebody does come to you and say, you know, we just got VC funding, we've got to triple the size of this company in a year. We've got the budget to do it. As a marketer, what kinds of things are you doing and looking at for them? Kate: The first thing I look at is, is there anything in their model that should be evaluated overall for marketing in terms of distribution or influence? For scalability, like you said, it's demand gen and brand. However, for a lot of things it's, is there something that needs to be built into the product from a marketing positioning standpoint or differentiation to make sure that that scale can happen with the brand and demand gen tools? That's one of my favorite parts and that's where your puzzles come in. So if you're a SaaS company, do you need to be offering some kind of certification program because you need more people using the software? What are the different channels? How is that working? I think getting a grasp on, is there something from a business model perspective that needs to happen? The other thing is, a lot of companies at that point have some juggernauts, right? Like, we're seeing churn is hitting here and it's too high, or we're seeing these little scenarios happen with customers, or our lifetime value is off. So we start trying to troubleshoot some of those things so that, that first step is really about marketing and the product and the operations of the business, and then also what needs to be worked out before you scale. There are usually some major learnings there. Once those kinks have been ironed out, we start looking at where are we positioned in the industry? Where is brand awareness? And then what is the plan with the sales team? So if you've got two sellers and you're going to hire maybe one more, that's a pretty basic stack because you don't want to build anything too complicated until you understand, are these relationship-based sellers, are these more tech savvy sellers? There's a difference in the tools required. So you can do something more basic in the meantime, just getting them basic collateral, making sure they have that stuff on the brand side. You start wanting to do more PR, more on positioning and really claiming your spot in the industry landscape. Then, as your sales team picks up, so when you start getting to like 20, 40, 50 up and up sellers, you're looking at a lot more sophisticated systems. You're usually looking at a change of how sales works. So if you have inside sales reps, how are they working, how are they using your marketing software? You get into really complex software decisions, and that's usually driven by marketing. How can startups use product-led growth? Kathleen: There's so much there. I have so many questions I want to ask you. Let's go back to one of the first things you said, which is that you actually begin in many cases by looking at product. So it sounds like what you're talking about is product led growth, and really going in and looking at what are the opportunities to bake something in -- the product that we have that can itself be a growth driver. I would love it if you could just talk a little bit more about that. Kate: It's both from a positioning standpoint, and distribution comes up. That comes up with SaaS companies a lot. And positioning can come up with B2C, right, of like what is this particular opportunity here? With direct to consumer you see it because you'll see, like, consumer products that are extremely well designed or they're really hip or something like that. So that's where you'll see that brand move play in really big. And, and usually with D2C, that's part of the initial product development. But sometimes that can come in as like, how do we do that? Sometimes it can be, with B2C, how do we build a community around the product, right? So some companies are doing a really good job of using Facebook groups. I think Facebook groups are amazing for marketers right now of, we're going to liberate our whole community and let them build with one another. But what are the rules of that? So I think there's just a lot there in terms of B2C, it depends. If it's a commodity-based business, it's harder. A lot harder, right? You're looking at, how do we feel different to the buyer? How do we provide a different experience? If we're not really offering something different, can we deliver it different? Is there really strong brand value that can go throughout the whole company and how would that be protected? So it really has a lot of different shapes. Think of channel partners or technology partners who are taking our API and installing it. But is there something more? Is there a way to even scale it bigger than that? Right? Like get like a whole group of individuals selling this thing for you. So I think it's really out of the box type thinking. And generally at this point, you know, the startup's been going for awhile, they've had some success, they're ready to, you know, commit, and they're ready to scale. They're leaning that way. So it's a really good time to do this work. How marketers can play a role in the broader business strategy? Kathleen: You're coming in as a marketing advisor. At the same time though, it goes to the core of the business strategy. It's not just a marketing strategy. If you're talking about putting an evangelist program in place or changing elements of the product or building a certification program, some of these are business strategies. So how do you navigate that conversation? Because I think often marketers are really challenged with, we're really comfortable staying in our marketing lane. But a lot of the times, when we get out of that lane -- and sometimes it manifests as, you know, we're starting to make recommendations about sales software, other times it's like the things you're talking about that can get rocky if you don't do it right -- how do you approach that? Kate: Yeah, that's a great statement. It's so true with this early stage stuff that I'm talking about. It's typically before a startup has hired a CFO or a senior level marketer. And so you're working directly with the CEO and they have some marketing resources. They'll have a small agency, they'll have a couple freelancers, right? Part of their problem is that they don't know who to hire. And most of the time what I tell them is you can't make that hiring decision yet. We don't know what the marketing is, so we don't know what type of marketer to hire, you know? So I'm a huge proponent of fractional CMOs because I think it's just too early and you don't want to get the wrong person. There's a lot at stake. And I think a lot of startups at that base, they've got revenue coming in, hire a CMO to come in four hours a week and figure this out slowly. And who realizes that you're going to hire for that position when you know what the direction is? So that's more early stage. And the company usually has maybe five to 10 employees, but marketing's not built out yet at all. Later on is where you get really more tricky. You've got someone in charge of sales and they have a particular way that they're hiring. Then as a marketer, you're supposed to bring in demand gen, right? And the demand gen you need to bring in is a different skillset than the sellers have. And the sellers were not aware of the software that you have to do. In my corporate role, it was a rollout plan. I started with HubSpot and got people used to this idea, this is what's going on and why. Then I moved into Marketo, which is super hard. Kathleen: I just went in the opposite direction. I went from a company with Marketo to a company with HubSpot and I'm like, "Thank God. It's so much easier." Kate: And then with Marketo, the sales team was growing. We had to do much more sophisticated type rules and stuff too, because all of a sudden you can have a sales team and you start bringing in all these leads and a sales team does not care. They don't care. And they're not gonna answer them. And you've got a cultural problem of you have to educate them toward how do you deal with these leads, what it means, their job and that it is, and you have to have support from the management team that this is going to be required. There's a whole lot and it just really depends on who you're working with and what their background is. You have to take it one step, one day at a time. So I think it just depends on the team. It depends on where people are. You have to be pretty fluid marketer. You have to be able to say, "This is what I need and it's going to be a process and I'm going to have to get buy in. And so how do I do that?" So you have to be patient. Kathleen: I think you raised something really important, which is, when you're coming into the job, you're at an advantage because you're working with a CEO. But just one thing I've learned is that when you, when you're in those hiring conversations, you have to, you have to have a conversation about that. I might be making some recommendations that are outside of what you might think of as marketing. How are you going to feel about that? Are you open to it? Are you willing to keep an open mind? You know, really, really figuring out that the personality type of the founder, the CEO, and whether they're willing to listen and, and consider other things I think is so important at that stage of a company. Kate: Critical. Specific strategies that startups can use to drive exponential growth Kathleen: Moving onto something else. You said you started talking about community and I love that topic. I could talk about it forever. And I guess this is, this is part of a bigger question I have, which is, I'd love it if you could share some examples of what you have seen work really well to fuel fast growth in some of the companies you've worked with. And maybe we could start with community because I came from a company a few jobs ago where we built a very large community and it was huge for us and it was a Facebook community. Through that experience I became really passionate about that. So that's just one example but, but there may be others. So, specific things that you have seen really deliver for the companies you've worked with. Kate: It's different for B2B and B2C. So I'll start with B2C because it's the easy, fun one. What I'm seeing right now that I love are these Facebook groups around certain products. This is not a client of mine, but it's actually a product I use. There was, what's it called, the meal delivery company that I was using for awhile when I had really busy days. It was all plant-based food and then they had this Facebook group and you could join it and people were just sitting there and they let people post whatever they want. They can sit there and post like "I really hate this smoothie. How am I going to get through this or am I supposed to do this later or not?" And it's super interesting to watch how that worked because the community moderated the community members for the brand. Brilliant. People will say, you know, "I did lose weight, I did not lose weight. This is really more about health." And so you start seeing these advocates come up and then they would use those advocates for their Instagram stories and other things. So that organic way of building a community that moderates itself is really interesting. Now initially, you have those questions about when do we step in and when do we not, and how do we moderate? I think if you can get by with moderating lightly, but you know, the feel of the brand is so positive, right? So that's a brand value that you have less of those issues but they're going to come up. But I think you have to have a very careful strategy about how to moderate that. The other thing that people are using a lot on B2B is obviously these micro influencers. There's some startups paying a lot of money for this and it's all over the place. Traction on that sort of slowed down the end of last year and now I'm starting to see clients pick back up on interest in that because everybody's at home and online, right? So we're starting to feel like there's opportunity there. I'd say if you can build your own organic community, that would be ideal, right? If you can't, you can use these micro influencers and that's great content as well. I talked to someone last week and their product's working and they're sold out, and they've gotten all this influencer marketing and that helped. But then all of a sudden years later, they don't have brand values. And so when you're needing to do more, you're needing to build content, you're needing to build demand and you're needing to build, you know, other parts of marketing, if you don't have those brand values built out, then all of a sudden you're like, well, who are we? We were using everyone else for the voice. So you'll run into that for B2B. It's true here. I think some of this comes to hiring. So what I've seen work really well is that you become friends with all the influencers in the industry and you sponsor their podcast and you appear on their podcasts and you go to their events and you just kind of make sure the team knows who the influencers are. And then you do everything you can to get involved with people at every level. You'll have local events and you'll bring the people in that you know, in that city and have them share their stories. And so it's a constant kind of industry networking. I've seen that work really, really well on the B2B side. But it's definitely different. Kathleen: It's so interesting that you say that because I've seen that work really well too, where people have formed strategic relationships with industry influencers and sometimes, not paid as you say. It doesn't always have to be paid. It could just be really showering them with love in the form of, you know, having them on your podcast or going on theirs or commenting and sharing and making introductions. I worked for a marketing agency for awhile and they did this exact thing and their way of forming those relationships was by offering to make personal branding websites for influencers. That was a great way to get to know them. Then you've done them a favor. So there are a lot of different ways that that that can be done. I think that's really smart. How to hit big growth goals on a small budget Kathleen: You work with well-resourced companies that are able to do a lot of these things. Any lessons learned or suggestions for companies that don't have those giant budgets? What are some things they can do in the early days? Kate: Oh yeah. I love the scrappy brands and helping startup founders. So I advise a lot of startup companies. I love this part of the work cause I obviously identify with it a lot. Being an entrepreneur for so long, I think, you know, when founders are trying to grow a brand unlimited budget, one thing I always bring up is never forget about email, because if you create an email list of your friends and family and colleagues and anyone that you meet with, those people become very loyal to your process. If you share with them where you are and what you're going through and what you need help with, they will help. It will absolutely help. I've seen that be really successful. Now your tone has to be right because nobody owes you anything and you want to be entertaining and kind of make them feel a part of it. And that's part of the email structure, right? Of like, "Here's what's happening and you know, these exciting things are happening, these challenges are happening. Here's how you can help." That is the basic format that does incredibly well. And that is one of the main marketing tricks that comes out of the Silicon Valley tech accelerators. They have all their founders do a weekly email and it works. I, on my own, I've had open rates of like 90% or higher, very high. Kathleen: I want to talk about that for a second because I'm fascinated by this. I also believe strongly in email. I also think that people think of email as this old, tired, dead strategy, but there's some really interesting things being done in the world of email right now. So you're talking about founders doing a weekly email. Can you peel the layers of that back a little bit for me? What does that look like? Who does it go to? Kate: Sure. So this is not client facing or customer facing. My personal list is maybe 200 people and it's my closest friends, my family members, colleagues I've worked with for years, people that I've met with on this journey. So it's people that know what you're up to and what you're striving for basically. But not clients. Clients and customers would get something different. They don't need to understand the process. So that email list is specific for friends and family colleagues. And what you do is, every time you send, you add more people that you've met along the way. I usually start it with like "Hi friends" or something like that. And then I usually say something seasonal about what's happening in the world and that I'm thinking about them because I am. All these people, they're cheering you on. And then I'll typically say, if you're new to the list, here's a link to the previous email, right? So that there's some sort of context in there drawn into the story correctly. And then I'll put some kind of update about where I am or what challenges are happening. And it's usually interesting stuff because when you're building a business, you hit all kinds of things in the world that are happening. So for example, with Traction Hero, there've been changes in California privacy law, changes in California employment law that have really changed the model. And that stuff is interesting. If you're not in it all day long, it's pretty interesting. So share the challenges you have. And then I usually say, "Here's the ways you can help. So if you just open your social accounts, we're now on Instagram. Would love if you would follow," and people will, they'll do it. Or "If you happen to know a friend who knows anything about X, Y, or Z, would you mind connecting me?" They will. This technique is straight from accelerator programs and it is a good one. Kathleen: Do you add these people to the list or do you ask them if they want to opt in? How does that work? Kate: I add them. I often will mention it to them. Like, "I'm going to add you to my newsletter. Let me know if it's okay." You're not doing it for a business so the rules are different. This is actually a question I'm curious to know. I mean I still send, so my recommendation is, I send it through MailChimp, their most basic template. And the reason why is people can unsubscribe. It does hurt your feelings a little bit more when someone does that you know. It's also interesting because if sometimes there'll be like a vendor or somebody and if they offer, I've actually had this happen, someone unsubscribed and I was like, then you're not interested enough in my story for me to pay you. Kathleen: Yeah. Right. Kate: Like, if you're not interested enough in this email because this is just basically what's happening with my business, if you're not interested in that, then I mean, I don't think that we'd be a good fit in terms of working together. I mean, I'm not bothering you. It's like once every six months, I mean slow, but I used to try to do them once a month. MailChimp's most basic template is perfect. And just text. I mean I throw in, maybe, you know, if I done a new logo design or something, throw it in. But keep it pretty simple. And that way people can unsubscribe. Kathleen: I'm a big fan of not overly designing emails. I mean these days, most people have the images in their emails turned off by default. And so if you've got a lot of design in there, it just doesn't get seen half the time anyway. And it looks crappy to have a lot of those image boxes. Like, "Turn your image on," you know, it just doesn't look good. So simpler is better all around with email in my opinion. Kate: Yeah, I know, I totally agree. And that MailChimp basic template's nice. The fonts big, it works well on mobile. It's, it's a nice one. These emails still take, I'm going to say it like if I'm fast, two hours. They still take time. You don't want to bother anybody and you want it to be entertaining and you want it to be, you know, uplifting, even if you're talking about your challenges. The most important thing is tone. I've seen some of these founder emails and if you use the wrong tone, people are like, "No thanks." Kathleen: So what is the right tone? Kate: I think it's friendly and I think it's engaging. You know, I don't think it's like, "Hi friends, hope you're enjoying this day. Please like my Facebook page, please sign up, please send me people who should be customers." It's not about a million asks. People have a lot going on in their lives. It's more of like, "Here's what's going on with building this startup right now. Here's what I'm trying to do. Here are the challenges I'm having. And that's interesting to people, because a lot of people haven't gone through it or want to go through it. And you know, entrepreneurship is never a straight line at all.  Kathleen: I love that idea. I mean, that's something that really any founder in any industry can do. I think for some it's going to put them in a place of discomfort because a lot of the founders I've met don't like talking about themselves that much, which is kind of funny because you're going to have to at some point as a founder.  But I think that's neat because that's something you can do that doesn't take really any money, that just takes your time. Kate: I'd say founders who have marketing backgrounds definitely have a hand up on this one. In tech accelerators, what would happen is I would send in mine first and then whoever in my batch would typically take mine and copy it. So people need examples of this. Email me and I'll send you one of my past ones because it does help to see some kind of, you know, formula that's worked for people and it's so much easier for marketers. Kathleen: I love that. So maybe we'll put Kate's email in the show notes and you can email her and say, Hey, I need your newsletter so you can see what it looks like. So you had, you said you had some other things to be on that and I took you on a tangent with that one.  Kate: So other things on my list. Definitely write industry articles on LinkedIn so that you're showing industry expertise and what you're learning. I think that's very important just to start showing industry expertise and that you're connected to the industry. The other thing I'll say is look for media stories where you might fit in and ping the journalists. So a quick side story, do we have time for that? Kathleen: Yeah, go for it. Kate: When I started my Seattle agency, I had just been through this issue of what's called domain front running, which is when you go in and you're buying a domain and before you can hit checkout, someone takes it from you. So they're capturing it on the domain register thing. Well, King Five, the big news station in Seattle ran a story about how these guys were making all this money on domain names and how it was such an innovative business. Well, I got the journalist name and I sent them an email and I said, "I totally disagree with you. This is really bad for entrepreneurs. It's, you know, it's not right. There's some negative things happening that are just unfair." So they came to the office and filmed me talking about the story about how someone stole my domain name and then sold it back to me for a lot more money than if I'd just been able to push the button. And that was a great opportunity. I've had a lot of luck. You know, my first startup was around printing cookbooks and I had a lot of luck just calling local news stations and cooking on air. Free PR. I've gotten a lot of clients placed, um, if you have a consumer based business, there are a lot of news stations that their lunchtime, they'll have like a third hour, they have a third hour. It's usually lifestyle and you can get pretty easily placed on it if you have some sort of presence and something to talk about. They need people for that lifestyle hour. So always look for PR and media opportunities. Kathleen: Yeah. And I would say a great resource for that also is help a reporter out -- HARO. I mean that's a no brainer. It doesn't cost anything. You subscribe to it, you get an email, however many times a day with reporters looking for sources for stories. It can be overwhelming, but it also is full of opportunity. Kate: Yeah, if you have gmail, you can put on a label and then go in and look when you have time. But yeah, that's an awesome recommendation. Podcast interviews are great. You find people like yourself and you have similar topics and interests. There are websites like Canva that make building marketing collateral so easy and you look like you know what you're doing design-wise and it doesn't cost you extra money. So by all means, make your decks, make your one pagers, make collateral for all these different use cases. Think about collateral. Kathleen: Oh my God, I have to stop you and just say, I am the biggest Canva fan girl on the planet. I am not a designer. I do not know how to use the Adobe suite to design anything. That's the one thing I've just realized. I'm not, I don't have the aptitude for it, but I can go into Canva and make the most beautiful things and I do it probably four times a day. I love it. Yes. It's amazing. Kate: Yeah. Canva, huge. When you get later on in your startup and you have to have brand differentiation and you know, you don't want to use simple stuff, that's different. Early on, use Canva, print this stuff, have leave behinds for customers. It doesn't cost that much money to just really work on your marketing collateral. I think also when you're on the topic of press, look at your local press opportunities, where can you talk at local events, whatever works locally. We'll end up working in different geographies and at larger scale. So learn locally first and that stuff is free. It just takes time. And also work on your industry. So look, so look at this stuff in terms of, are you being, are you B2B or B2C? So where does that fall in? Then look at your media, look at it local and look at an industry as well. And then you want to start growing your community in terms of media. I see entrepreneurs, it's kind of painful to see that they're trying to do all the platforms and it's terrible on all of them. Just choose the ones that are most relevant and a couple to start and just start figuring it out. There's some great tools. A lot of people are saying, "Well, I don't want Twitter because it's not working." Okay. But the thing about it, the people who are on Twitter right now are really passionate and they stay on it. They're a very, very, very passionate bunch. My favorite Twitter tool for growing a Twitter audience is called Jooicer, which is J. O. O. I. C. E. R. Have you seen it? It's awesome. It's like 30, 40 bucks and will grow your Twitter audience for you beautifully. So you know, find tools like that. And again, like we were saying with Canva, you can make beautiful social media posts in Canva since you now have to have more designed content. Use Canva for that.  Kathleen: Yeah, I love this and I will tell you right now as the head of marketing at a startup, I use Canva, I use helper a reporter out. I totally, totally agree with you on those suggestions. Those are great. Kate's advice for startup founders Kathleen: Well we are running low on time. So any last words of advice for startup founders out there who really want to take that fast path to growth? Kate: Yeah, I think the important thing is to try to not get overwhelmed. And so what I recommend doing is, do a list of 10 to 15 different things. You can try figure out a small test for that, that's feasible. Like, if it's an ad unit, put enough money so it's actually worth the test and go through and test them and concentrate on one thing, like one thing a week, step by step by step. If you try to do it all at one time, you get really overwhelmed and it ends up not diluting the quality of it. So, one foot in front of the other is what I always tell people. Kathleen: Yeah. That's good. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Now changing gears because I have two questions I always ask all of my guests. We're all about inbound marketing on this podcast. So when you think about inbound, is there a particular company or individual that you can point to that you think is really doing it well? Kate: The first thing that popped in my mind was not what you asked. It was a company that helps people do it well. I really like Unbounce for landing pages. I think you can get a very beautiful landing page up quickly. I would have to think on that. I think, sorry, I was not prepared for this one. Kathleen: That's okay. Unbounce is a good suggestion actually. I can just keep that. Kate: Okay. I'm a huge proponent of Unbounce. There are other cheaper tools, but I really like the quality of Unbounce. Kathleen: Yeah, they're a great company. Second question, the biggest pain point I hear from marketers is that they can't keep pace with all of the different ways that digital marketing is changing. So how do you personally stay up to date with all of it? Kate: Being an agency owner, I've spent a lot of time and resources going through MarTech tools and organizing them. If anybody wants these reports, just please email me. And that helped organize my brain a lot and help me understand if I was doing the right thing or not. So we've done reports where we analyze CRM tools. There's one on website development tools. We've got one on email marketing and one on marketing automation. What those reports did, because in my head I just couldn't keep it all straight, was say here are the solutions, here are all the features that they all have comparatively. And then here are the integrations they have. Because I think what's so hard about MarTech right now is it's not only like I like this product, so I've got 20 products I have to put together. And when you're going out to buy, it's, it's not a great way for marketers to have to spend time of like, which tool, and having to analyze this themselves. So one of my goals to help marketers is to say, here's some reports. Go through everything that you need to know and hopefully you can pick a tool or at least narrow it down to two or three that you should get a free trial on before you commit to it. So I think any website like that, save yourself time on evaluating tools. Find people who've done the research for you. I think that that is really overwhelming. Kathleen: That's so true. It is. It's a lot. There's so many MarTech tools now. How to connect with Kate Kathleen: All right, well we're just about out of time. So Kate, if somebody's listening and they want to learn more about you or traction hero or they want to reach out and ask a question, what's the best way for them to connect with you? Kate: Katewalling.com is my personal website and Tractionhero.com is for the agency. It's a very landing page type website. Right now we're kind of building, um, by doing the work first. You can always reach out to me on my email, which is kate[at]katewalling.com or Twitter, which my handle is @Katewalling. You know what to do next... Kathleen: All right, fantastic. If you're listening and you liked what you've heard or you learned something new, please head to Apple podcasts and leave the podcasts a five star review so we can get in front of some more folks just like you. And of course, if you know anybody else who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next guest. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Kate. Stay healthy. Kate: Thank you so much for having me.

Music fans generally agree that the experience of seeing musicians perform live can be the greatest experience music can offer. The way the members of an orchestra or a band can play off each other and feed off an audience's enthusiasm often results in an experience one can remember for life. The problem is that all too often that energy doesn't get translated as a recording....the moment has been and gone, and we're left with an album that doesn't bring out the experience for those at the show (and often includes the cheating that often goes on with post production). Welcome to episode 133 of Love That Album podcast. (Maybe) I'm amazed that I've never done a show devoted to favourite live records....the ones that DO give some idea of what it was like to be there on the night. I put out the call to the other podcasters in the Pantheon Network and asked if anyone wanted to talk to me about their favourite live albums. As it turns out, I had to push back to a couple of shows to another date....such was the great response that I received. Tune in and find out what the following people had to say about a favourite nominated live record: Peter Ferioli (conspirator behind Pantheon and future host of a show I'll let him reveal) Ty Lisson (host of The Band: A History) Joe Wroblewski and Ryan Dixon (hosts of Highway Hi Fi) Christian Swain (host of Rock and Roll Archaeology and Deeper Digs In Rock) Markus Goldman (co-host of The Imbalanced History of Rock and Roll) Brad Page (host of I'm In Love With That Song) I spoke with the hosts individually about their picks and was able to get to the crux of what they appreciated in a live album and their picks in particular. My huge thanks and gratitude to these wonderful people for their time and discussion. You can download this episode of LTA from Spotify, Stitcher or iTunes (search for “Love That Album podcast”). Love That Album is proudly part of the Pantheon Podcast network. Go to http://pantheonpodcasts.com/ to check out all their great shows. You can send me feedback at rrrkitchen@yahoo.com.au (written or mp3 voicemail) or join the Facebook group at http://www.facebook.com/groups/lovethatalbum. If you’d consider writing an iTunes review we’d be immensely grateful. However, it’d be even better if you told a friend about the podcast and Pantheon – at a (socially distanced) barbecue, over coffee (on Skype), on social media….whatever way you choose, consider me grateful.

An article I read about research into diversity asked about levels where different groups felt occupations became "sufficiently diverse." It looked at positions at tech companies, for example.I support diversity. I came across the article from the newsletter from Heterodox Academy, started by previous guest Jonathan Haidt, which promotes diversity, particularly of viewpoints. I would promote diversity in many places, yet there are many places I don't see diversity promoted or researched.Living in Manhattan, I see many doormen, building superintendents, building porters, takeout food deliverymen, construction workers, and so on. I know there are many people who work mines, deep sea fishing, and so on. I understand mostly men work these fields. I never see whites or women delivering food in New York by bicycle. Have you?Maybe I'm ignorant, but where is the push and research for diversity in these fields? I'm not asking rhetorically or to poke holes. I expect diversity in those fields would promote a healthier society for many reasons, includingPhysically dangerous fields dominated by men, when women entered them, became saferThe more opportunities for whites in fields like delivering food, the more they'll be pulled from other roles and the more the roles where they're underrepresented will change to appeal to executivesThe more people promote equality in dangerous or low-paying fields, the more credibility they'll gain, so they don't just look like they're trying to help themselves onlyThey may receive support from groups from whom they don't, like manual laborers who likely feel slightedPeople and society will rethink relationships between different workers and classesMartin Luther King, jr sought equality between all, not just to help some. Nelson Mandela learned Afrikaans to understand his captors. How much do people today seek equality across the board versus helping some groups but not others?Here's the first article I read that Heterodox Academy's newsletter linked to and got me thinkingDiversity: Measuring How and Why Groups See It DifferentlyThe primary research that article referred toDrawing the Diversity Line: Numerical Thresholds of Diversity Vary by Group Status, by Felix Danbold and Miguel M. UnzuetaAnother article on research by one of themHere’s What Happens When You Tell White People America Is Getting Less WhiteResearch by one of the researchers that starts looking into these questionsWhy Aren’t There More Women Firefighters? See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Maybe I'm just a Nice Guy

*pending the league's decision on the rest of the season (which I'm pessimistic about) Maybe I'm too gloomy, but I'm guessing that the NBA regular season is just about kaput. So here's a possibly premature discussion of the top 12 players (so far?), best value draft pick of the year, biggest disappointment of the year and pickup of the year. I also answer three mailbag questions that look forward to next season. Stay safe, wise and kind, listeners. Stay home unless you absolutely must make a run for necessities, etc. For more info regarding COVID-19, check out the CDC's website. Follow me on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Music: "Wizard" by Jahzzar From the Free Music Archive CC BY NC

Maybe I'm a little bit prepperish, but don't you think its time to start thinking about how you can HELP and not HINDER the effort to work through this mass hysteria?

Maybe I'm a little bit prepperish, but don't you think its time to start thinking about how you can HELP and not HINDER the effort to work through this mass hysteria?

Hey everyone, Sheevaun, you're driving for your success. Today's topic is about manifesting faster. One of the things that we always want is how to achieve the result faster. I always call it magical thinking that we should automatically pop it into our hands, the idea and poof, it will show up and then goodness for magic and miracles and you know, the concept of magical thinking. Because if we didn't have magical thinking, we wouldn't have a lot of hope, but there's something that happens when we're in the process of manifesting something, meaning going after something that we want to achieve in order to get a result. We start good intentions, we're moving ahead really rocking this time we've crawled out of the hole and next thing you know is something knocks us upside the head. Some accident, we get sick,  something had happened.  We have to take care of that first. The fascinating thing about this, this getting what you want and manifesting faster is one super important thing that everyone does on this journey. Everyone. It's like, so say you want, I don't know, an income of $10,000 or more a month and you're working on it and it's starting to happen, and then you make a commitment to something that's bigger and then stuff happens and then you kicked back and you chill out and you're like, eh, maybe I don't really want that after all. Maybe I'm really just fooling myself, maybe.. you know, who am I to go after that, you know, am I that special to really get that and help those people? And all of this stuff starts to happen.  The really fascinating thing about this path, and I've done this little drawing over here, we talk about it and one of my challenges and one of my challenges, it's a seven day challenge.  The fascinating thing is I teach you how to manifest faster, and get out of that one thing. Get out of that one thing that is stopping you in every step of the journey and really stay on that path. Even though it's going to go like this, it's okay. I teach you how to get out of the doubt and the worry and the fear and the anxiety and the tension and the stress, and to really create manifest faster. So if you want to manifest faster, you have to hold onto that one idea that you want that $10,000 or more a month with all of your thought power, with all of your intention, with all of your attention, regardless of doubt. Because the truth of the matter is you have the ability to have that because you desire it when you desire something, energy universe creation is trying to match up your desire with that reality.   That doubt thing is like flat tire after flat tire after flat tire. And I remember when we were in India one time and our driver kept saying, miss, miss, I have doubt about directions. I'd say, Mohammad, no doubt. And we ended up going on a two week trip that everyone said was totally impossible. Later on they found out what all of the things that we did and saw and it's because I cleaned up doubt out of every conversation, every circumstance. So one of the ways I do that is we do it through our challenge at woolah.life http://woolah.life and you're going to get access to our seven day challenge. My name is Sheevaun Moran. For more information about me and all the other cool stuff that I do, go to SheevaunMoran.com S H E E V A U N M O R A N.com. And so appreciate you sharing, liking, commenting, anything that you feel inspired to do. It is really going to help you get that next result or reward and really make the difference in the dent that you here to make. See you soon.   CONNECT WITH ME: Full site http://bit.ly/cpENJY Twitter http://www.twitter.com/Sheevaun Facebook http://bit.ly/2hCAlPT LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheevaunm... Blog site http://bit.ly/2fn67jh Subscribe to my channel! http://youtube.com/EnergeticSolutions

On this episode, we touch on three topics. First, we look at how bourbon producers can reach new consumers. Then we take on the new celebrity craze. Over the past year, there have been about half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with bourbons. While we don’t see this trend stopping, we ask ourselves if this is good for bourbon as a whole. Lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It’s a group consensus that we all miss it, but how has it affected value, store pricing, and distributor allocation? Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle them at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about celebrity whiskey. How do bourbon producers reach new customers? What about new label designs? What do you think about celebrities getting into bourbon? Are celebrities helping or hurting bourbon? Let's discuss the current state of the secondary market. 0:00 Have you held a bottle of bourbon in your hand and wondered how was this made? sure there's the grains in the barrels and all that science that goes into it. But what about the package design, class manufacturing, shipping logistics, or purchase orders for thousands of cork stoppers. These are only a handful of things that you need to know. But what the University of levels online distilled spirits business certificate, you're only a few clicks away from learning from industry experts from renowned spirits businesses like brown Forman, jack daniels and more. Learn more about this online six course certificate at U of l.me. Slash 0:35 bourbon pursuit. 0:38 Carey is fashionably late for his returns. 0:41 I said he's making a big entrance right 0:45 see, I like this new platform because I hold the power like I actually don't have to put them on the screen. 0:50 Perfect. really sing as actually it's kind of cool how this works. Yeah, 0:54 it is cool. Yeah. Alright, he's here now should Adam 0:57 Can you can you like put his head face like behind a curtain kind of thing or voice? I can I can kick him 1:03 from the studio. He will do that. 1:06 I'll put him in. And then I'll take him out. 1:21 Everyone, it's Episode 241 of bourbon pursuit. And if it's your morning drive, good morning, if it's your daily run, break that record. And if you're sitting at work, let's make this day go by one hour faster. Last week, whiskey magazine presented their 2020 icons of American whiskey awards in New York City, and I'll be damned if we weren't even considered in the running. Who knows maybe next year, but here's some of the names that you might recognize. Brent Elliott from four roses was named master distiller the year Buffalo Trace as the best distiller and visitor attraction. peerless distilling companies small batch Kentucky straight bourbon was named the best Kentucky bourbon While Rebel Yell took home the best Kentucky single barrel bourbon and iron Republic out of Texas as the best non Kentucky and eh Taylor ride took home the best rye while to 91 Colorado whiskey took home the best new make award. And lastly Peggy no Stevens accepted and induction into the Hall of Fame as well. winners from the icons of American whiskey and world whisky awards. 2021 now go head to head and their competition across the globe to figure out who will be the best whiskey in the world. Now we presented in London in March of 2020. The Kentucky distillers Association announced that the famed Kentucky bourbon trail and Kentucky bourbon trail craft tour destinations Welcome to 1.7 million visitors in 2019. And now is celebrating its anniversary with its 21st birthday. Now, let's get into some bourbon economics beam centuri self solid sales growth in 2019. posting a revenue increase of six and a half percent for the Year and beam centaurs flagship brand, Jim Beam had a strong year in the US, where depletions increased eight and a half percent to 5.7 million cases. That also includes flavors variants of Jim Beam, according to impact databanks estimates. Now basil Hayden was another dynamic performer estimated up 37% to 345,000. cases in the US last year in Japan became the largest export market for Jim Beam last year, driven by the high vol craze, Kentucky Governor Andy Bashir announced that Kentucky is leading the nation in whiskey exports, which shouldn't be much of a surprise. The governor made the announcement while filling the 16th million barrel of Jim Beam at Jim beam's American steel house in Claremont, Kentucky, and Kentucky led all states in whiskey exports in 2019 at 480 $5 million. That total marks a 326% increase since 2004. While Canada united Kingdom, France, Brazil in Mexico make up the Commonwealth top five export destinations. Alright, today we've got the roundtable, a show where internet friends gather and discuss a bunch of bourbon popery. And On this episode, we touch on three topics, we look at how brands and distilleries can start reaching new consumers, and what are the best ways of getting your product in the eyes of them today? Then we take on the celebrity craze. Over the past year, they've been on a half a dozen music artists and TV personalities that have come out with Bourbons on the market. While we don't see this trend, stopping anytime soon, we ask ourselves, is this good for bourbon as a whole. And lastly, we examine the current state of the secondary market. It's a group consensus that we all miss it. But what has been the effect for pricing store pricing in distributed application, since this is all happened over six months ago. And if you're a Patreon supporter, you got the email yesterday that we're going to be doing a new pilot episode called Extra pursuit. This is a new kahlan radio show format that we're going to test out that is exclusively available to our Patreon community. We hope to see you all mine soon and make it successful to see how this thing's going to turn out. And speaking of things that are happening in the Patreon world, we have two barrel pics that are happening a Buffalo Trace this week. So if you want the opportunity to get your hands on one of these bottles of these private selections, as well as even possibly join us on the pic, go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. It's this community that funds a lot of the things that happened with this podcast, and we're happy that we can bring these experiences like this to so many of our listeners. It's showtime. So here's Joe from barrel bourbon, and then you've got Fred minich, 5:45 with above the char. 5:48 Hey everyone, Joe here again, we enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cast rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Next time Ask you bartender for barrel bourbon. 6:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. Right now we're seeing a plethora of celebrity whiskies come out. Most recently Jason Aldean, and Terry Bradshaw have announced their whiskies Of course, last year we had slipknot and Metallica, Bob Dylan, and I got to tell you, there's going to be a whole lot more coming. I'm even familiar with a few of them, that some of which I cannot disclose at this time. But let me just tell you, we should not think of celebrity whiskey as something that is the end of times or a sign that the bubble is about to bust. Rather, celebrity whiskeys just mean that we have right now the attention of all those who are interested in making money. And basically celebrities are like any other business. They're all about trying to make money. And whiskey is one of the hottest games in town right now. course it doesn't help that George Clooney actually made a couple billion dollars off of a tequila a few years ago. And so with the rise of spirits come more celebrities, I believe we should actually reward those who make good whiskey or at least put their name on good whiskey. Here's the thing, this is what we don't want. We don't want whiskey to become the next vodka, where celebrities galore just kind of sign up and they just put their name on it. We want the celebrities to actually be involved. We want them to be involved with good whiskey. And you know, the Matthew McConaughey project with wild turkey is a good example of how a celebrity can be used to improve a brand. Now, we'll see if that ends up working in the long haul, but I kind of liked the idea of more celebrities coming in to the game of whiskey. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook, just search my name Fred MiniK Pape Until next week, cheers 8:03 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. This is bourbon Community Roundtable number 41. So we've been doing this quite a while and we've got a whole lot of good topics lined up tonight. And it's usually the Wrecking Crew that we have here. We talk about some, some culture things that are happening inside of Bourbons, and that, you know, latest news and we kind of give our, our best informed opinions and I guess that's maybe what you call it. 8:29 You know, maybe sometimes it's maybe simpler. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, but that's just part of the process. But yeah, most of the time I get my comments, you know, decided right before the show, just research the topics and I'm like, okay, that's how I feel. I don't even know. 8:49 Yeah, 8:51 yeah, off the cuff. 8:54 That's part of the fun, you know, we've done this enough by now. And I think that's also funny for Ryan and I when we go and we're we're interviewing a lot of people nowadays. They're all like, hey, um, can you all send me like a list of questions that you want to answer ahead of time? 9:06 We're like, No, 9:09 we don't have any questions. 9:13 Like we're just gonna show up and ask questions. This is how we do it now. 9:18 I don't think we had an agenda the first time did we 9:20 forget roundtable? I don't remember. It was very first one that was so long ago. 9:24 That's too long ago. 9:27 I know. I know. But you know, let's go ahead and I think we can we can kick it off. So you heard some voices already. We'll save the our new special guest tonight for last you've heard his name on there before but I'll start with the guy who's always on here, Blake. You can't 9:41 get rid of me of the bourbon Roundtable. I'm Blake from bourbon er. Yeah, always fun to be on. You know. Still, this is one of the one of the highlights of the month to jump on here and talk with you guys. So thanks for having me. As always, you can find me on all the social medias, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Bo you are Bo nr as well as my, I would say newer, or new site that's kind of just newish at this point. That's seal box calm, so es el ba ch s. So thanks me guys. 10:13 Absolutely make sure you go check it out for all your craft whiskey needs as well as pursuit series needs. You can go and get everything ordered right to your doorstep. We always need it. So Jordan, you're up next, buddy? 10:25 Sure. This is Jordan from breaking bourbon, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon calm. You can find us on all the socials at breaking bourbon and make sure to sign up for our newsletter. We're always sending out our latest calendar calendar releases. Is that starting already? Oh, it's it's been going already for for a few weeks now. 10:43 Oh, gosh. You feel 10:44 like it feels like it's it's a good time right now because you're like, oh, like we don't have to worry about anything crazy coming out like stag Junior bash 13. Like that came in when already now we can just relax for a minute but like seems like you guys just want to keep the energy going. 11:00 It'd be nice if we got a break, that's for sure. But the bourbon Gods demand it. 11:04 Yeah. Hey, we got Brian. How you doing, buddy? 11:07 Hey guys doing great thanks for having against Brian with sip and corn on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is sip and corn. You can find me online at either sipping corn or bourbon justice calm looking forward to it. 11:19 Absolutely. And we have a familiar face of the Round Table making his return. 11:25 Carrie 11:26 How are you buddy? Hey guys, thanks for having me back on here if if Blake is Cal Ripken of baseball, I'm Fernando Rodney. I'm the reliever that you call in once in a while and you're really nervous because you don't know what's gonna happen. 11:43 Yeah, I could either be strong or not, but at least I'll look good with my hat turned a little bit to the side. 11:50 It's all a matter it's come sprinting out. Yeah, sprinting out of right field. That's right, people. Yeah. 11:57 This is awesome. 11:58 Well, Ryan as two people still watching Baseball I I certainly have paid zero attention to it but I don't know about you all. Then again, Louisville is not much of the amazing that we get the Louisville Slugger museum. We got the basically the biggest names with baseball here with the equipment yet. Like the city just really doesn't care that much about baseball because we don't have a protein just got to go an hour and a half north to be able to do that. 12:20 Yeah, they stink. Yeah, there's no point. 12:23 baseball's hot right now just because of the controversy. like everybody's talking about it now. 12:27 It was just the astralis conference. 12:29 Yeah, for sure. Which is crazy. If you look in depth at all of the stuff that's come out and then consider like the latest evidence where the guy was holding his jersey when he was crossing, homeboy. I know things like definitely a made for TV movie coming out ridiculous. Lifetime movie come 12:45 Yeah. But it keeps it fun. keeps it interesting. I think maybe like every once in a while, like sports have to do these things like they gotta create something to hype it back up again. Because as soon as it starts hitting this little plummet, you're like, Oh, am we're back up again. 12:58 Yeah, they said this is actually good for baseball bat for the Astros? 13:02 Well, that's true, as somebody's got to be a pawn in the game at the end of this right. So, all right, 13:07 so let's go ahead and start hitting some topics tonight. So the first one we want to do is we're gonna start looking at marketing and trying to figure out really how our bourbon distilleries and producers, how do they reach new bourbon drinkers? And I know that we've we've thrown a few different ideas around here. And I know Jordan, you had had some thoughts coming into this. So how do you kind of feel that distillers or bourbon, distilleries and marketing like how should they be reaching new consumers nowaday? 13:35 Yeah, so I think there's two parts, right? I'll make this short, but two parts. One is through people of the industry and making sure their products get out in their hands and making sure that we're highlighting them right. So for example, heaven Hill just sent out the whole latest batch of Elijah Craig. Right, which was great and everyone's posting bottles up and doing reviews and honestly, that's okay because usually it's a slam dunk bourbon, right for Most part, but other distilleries don't do that right Buffalo Trace released that press release for stag bash 13 they didn't send out any bottles, they just sent a press release. So, you know, I think the distilleries that are getting smart are making sure that bottle is getting hands of different review sites or different people on social media and making sure it gets out there. And then from just a standard consumer standpoint, right i think it's the people that are doing a lot of just non distiller producers right it's who is a fun label, who has a backstory good, right wrong and different, whatever your opinion may be on it. That's the people who walk in I have so many friends who go into liquor store they'll text me Hey, this looks really cool the labels cool fun backstory, you know anything about it? Like yet it's difficult. So is every other thing in your hand on the shelf, right? And they don't know what that means, though. They're just looking for a fun bottle to give us a present or Don't be. But there's nothing there's nothing wrong with decal, either. It's just you have to know kind of who's picking and who's selecting Right. I mean, we all know we've had some fantastic decal barrels coming out of there, but it's just, you know, that was just an example. So it's It's the people are doing it right or making sure they're getting out to the influential folks and talking about it. And then the rest are trying to just whatever the consumer with fun packaging. And that's kind of been tried and true throughout the years. 15:10 So you think they're doing a better job now then? I mean, Fred's not here. We can poke a jab at him then, like buying another Magazine Ad or something like that. But 15:20 I think they got smarter with the dollars and how they do stuff right. And I'll go back to heaven Hill, for example, right? They could just as well put up a billboard and global or anywhere else or they could have put out a huge news spread and bourbon plus or another magazine right whiskey advocate, announcing Elijah Craig barrel proof. Instead what they do, they got smart. Instead of sending a sample that people are viewing, they sent a bottle and you know what it's popping up all over social media, all of our websites and that cost them a fraction of what it would cost to a major advertising campaign. They smartened up the truly half 15:51 I didn't get a bottle 16:00 After bourbon and beyond and like a nice couple week run of, you know, really being on and things like 16:05 that, even years back, right? I mean, 16:10 bourbon blogging is two hobbies. It's the love of bourbon as a hobby, and the love of writing as a hobby. And I've come to realize that only like one of those two hobbies a lot. I like talking bourbon and I liked hanging out with people, but bourbon, but it's just the writing thing. It just inspires me for a while and then it it goes away. But if I finished the unfinished stuff that I have in my blog, I mean, I'd have like, I have like two and a half posts, it'd be amazing. So someday, we'll get back to it. But my question about the marketing stuff, are you referencing celebrities? marketing that or just how they're trying to reach consumers? 16:48 Yeah, I mean, we'll get to that in a little bit. I, you know, I'm kind of looking at, you know, how do we reach new bourbon drinkers? Right. And I think we'll get into the celebrity thing in a little bit because that's kind of like the second segment of the show. But you know, there's another thing that that I think brought up in our kind of private chat and that was, you know, I kind of want to stay on this topic a little bit before I start switching gears a little bit, you know, as we start looking into the clinical influencer realm, right, it's kind of a it's kind of like, I don't know if you guys like the word I feel like I'm like, nasty when I call myself an influencer like, 17:19 yeah, hundred percent. 17:21 Yeah, not good. 17:22 Yeah. Well, but that part is it's true. Right guys 17:24 are influencers though. I mean, you are like, when? Yes, the 17:30 batch 12 17:31 that you can't find anymore and the price went up. Do you know why that one went up? It's because of that guy right there. Jordan? Yes. Why? Yeah, that was definitely a breaking. 17:41 Breaking, but we'll certainly take credit for that. But you know, in our book, and I agree with what Kenny just said and you know, I we don't like the word influencer, I think to us, right? We put a ton of work into breaking bourbon. It's more than just a hobby, right? It's it's almost a full time job at this point is the job of planning job and we work our butts off for that. I think of influencer I think it's somebody out in a beach with a bottle and they're taking a picture. And that's, that's all they're going to put into it right? They're looking at their latest filter on Instagram. And that's how they're influencing folks. For us. It's truly a love and a passion of making sure we get out our thoughts to consumers that when they're new consumers are old consumers going to liquor store, we're able to help them pick out the right bourbon that's right for them. Right. And that's more than lensing. That's that's going out and doing a job to show in your love for the hobby. 18:27 Exactly. 18:28 I think it you know, kind of what Jordan said with how far is the influencer taking it, like, all right, you know, are they writing posts and had this conversation with, with with Josh from whiskey jug about, you know, you can have an influencer who do an Instagram story that's there for 24 hours, what does that really get you you know, is there really an ROI on that, but if they put an Instagram story, if they do a post, if they do a blog post, then you have SEO, SEO, you have backlinks, you have all this other stuff that's kind of building around it and So, you know, I think you almost have to be hitting all those areas to have some kind of influence. 19:08 But as far as which brands 19:09 are doing the best, I mean, you think about I know somebody mentioned this in the chat I think beam does a really good job of this barrel always does a good job about getting beer bottles up to people who are gonna, you know, have an audience and can post them. Heaven hills, come on strong. I mean, I don't Did anybody receive anything from heaven Hill until about two years ago? I know I didn't. So those are a few that I think definitely pop up. And Buffalo Trace seems to be taking the opposite approach of you know, we don't need as as much of this so, you know, used to if there was something you could get a sample it'd be two ounces or something like that. Now, even that seems pretty limited. 19:54 What they're doing, they get so many pictures 19:58 of just normal people. 19:59 Yeah. 20:00 Well wait one day. Yeah. Why would they send to really anyone when just some Joe Biden it has to take a crop shot crop shot just because he found Eagle rare or something like that? Yeah. 20:12 It was revolution that sample bottles too. So there's that. 20:18 I don't know that that sample size really makes a difference in terms of marketing. Because the people that are using you guys, your opinions probably are already into the hobby, right? So you've got the, the new people that they're trying to market to. And then you've got the people who are in the bourbon world who might not look at their brands, who they're trying to get them to switch. So I don't know. I feel like some of it too, is the marketing by us. And I guess we're getting into that part. But the marketing kind of gets into trying to influence young people, right, because you have people who in my mind people in college, first try bourbon if they haven't already, you know, but when you're 21 and you're in college, and you try it and then you know you're having Evan Williams had a full ball game or something and then you graduate and you wanted a nicer bourbon to move to I feel like that's kind of, I really don't know if that's where they're targeting, but it would seem like that would be your market. 21:09 Maybe I'm gonna disagree just a little bit and at least I'll speak for us and not a humble brag, but you know, we have millions of unique people come to breaking bourbon every year. And I guarantee you that the indepth crowd that we get caught up in on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, nowhere near is that high, right? So that means to us, there's a lot of folks who are invested in the bourbon world who go to breaking bourbon. And I guarantee you it's probably the same thing for bourbon pursuit. They're probably picking up a ton of new people who aren't deep in the bourbon sphere. Right? And same with Brian and his book. I bet you have a lot of people are just really into largest into Kentucky history picking it up that part that have no relation whatsoever and who don't know what bourbon pursuit is we're breaking bourbon as. So the audience we reach is actually much greater than than we actually realize. And it's not everyone who's viewing this, you know, round table right now. It's much greater than that. So 21:56 they have discovered that because they realized they love bourbon. Or they're just trying bourbon and saying oh you know I like bourbon I'm gonna find bourbon and people on the internet 22:06 I don't know we ask we ask a lot of folks who write into us for the first time for the emails we say hey how'd you hear breaking bourbon said honestly I was in a liquor store trying to find more information before I dropped 40 bucks on bottle never heard of you guys before but you know it's good so they probably search the brand he searched the brand or the bottle totally don't know about breaking bourbon they're just searching for bourbon they're trying to get into it they're trying to make sure that their dollars right to us. We get so caught up just $200 bottles are in our bottle. Right The average consumer we you know, you need to remember 3040 bucks a lot of money drop on a bottle of bourbon. Right? So that's what they're looking for. Make sure they're spending their dollars wisely. 22:41 Your joke your points really good. Jordan, the people that I talked to in a lot of the presentations that I've been doing now, I don't know they're they're not the bourbon enthusiasts. They don't really don't know anything and I'm having to explain to them when we're doing a bottled and bond tasting what in the world bottled and bond is and they've never had the three that we've got on the tasting. So I think you're right there, there's a lot of new people coming into it. And that's, that's really what the brands are after I think. 23:08 I compare it to, like, you know, picking up other hobby. So if, if I'm looking at wine accounts, I may be falling for a complete marketing gimmick, but because I saw something on Instagram, so I want to try a bottle of wine or like, you know, some golf tool that is not going to help my game at all. But that's I don't know the difference. So I try to find the accounts that I think I can trust and that are giving good feedback. And, you know, just going from there and, like, kind of both y'all alluded to I think we really just, you know, don't give enough attention to the fact that the majority of the bourbon market is not guys like us. It's it's not guys that know what what mash bills are made aware or even care about it. You know, it's like, Hey, I got $40 to spend. I don't want to feel dumb. Because I get this bottle home and it tastes terrible. Where do I go? in you know, I think that's that's probably 80% of the market at this point. 24:10 Yeah, for so another big thing that makes me happy that this is all happening as well as that, you know, shout out to heaven Hill and a few other ones that that sends you full bottles, right? I mean, that gets you a much better Instagram shot than like a little two ounce sample a little cup that you know, kind of comes in and stuff like that. So I'm always happy to get the full bottles. I think that's fantastic. 24:32 I remember loving all bottles because they know I'm just going to like, review it, take a few pictures and then they get the bottle so they think it's the greatest thing ever. 24:42 I remember when Kenny used to get shafted, and now he's, he's on he's he's all the way to Mini. 24:50 I'm saying that. 24:51 Nothing wrong with that. 24:54 Absolutely not. Yes, yeah. So 24:57 go ahead right. 24:58 Do I get to get a point or not? We've had some 25:02 remember, I can put you on mute now? 25:04 Go ahead. No, my first right. No, I totally agree with what Blake says. And I've talked to you about this Kenny before, like we to get bourbon and expanded, we got to go to fringe audiences, like people that are interested in food, or cigars or wine, or like even cooking with green eggs or, you know, smoking food, you know, as there's just, that's where they got to start allocating their money to because people that are nerdy about something, they're going to be nerdy about bourbon, they're going to dive in to whatever they're interested in. And that's who you want are those people that are passionate about their hobbies. And so if you can get to those fringe audiences that kind of tie into what you got going on. 25:42 So the other part of this about looking at, you know, how are they reaching new customers, is we look at label designs and sort of what's happened in the market and on the most recent things that we can think of, of course, is like the new Baker's redesign, right? taking something that was a flagship product, redesigning it, giving it a Basically a face facelift of a label some new bottle new tops and everything like that. Do you all anticipate seeing this as a another trend forward where we can expect more brands to start saying like okay let's let's keep the brand but let's give it a whole new facelift let's break it so you look more younger more energetic anything like that. 26:20 Is that kind of part of marketing one on one anyway is is rebranding your image if if sales are hurting a little bit I feel like that's kind of kind of a standard especially in the bourbon world where it's just a label it just changed the label up in it you know people it sells out and fever like I got pre label stuff for sale and people go crazy and you know the fear FOMO sets in 26:42 or change the you change the proof or double the price to you know that 26:47 I think that's a lot of it too, right? I think it's a good excuse and I'm not justifying this at all, but I think brands are looking for a way to increase price right? One easy thing to do let's relay let's not really what but let's rebrand it right new bottle, different labels. Get a little more upscale 510 15 $20 mortars cost to the price. Right and I think you've been seeing that a lot of brands doing it. Or let's switch from screw top to cork. Let's do little things that make it feel more high end, same bourbon, right but now they're gonna start charging more and somehow people feel it's okay because now seeing the same model with a new increase price they're seeing a new bottle with an increased price. 27:22 Yeah, and there's some people in chat that are talking about how wild turkey is going through a yet another one. I think we've we've touched on this before, like, haven't they done like two or three of them in the past like five or six years of like, just suddenly changing things on the wild turkey one to one label? 27:36 Well, now it looks like they may switch the bottle up completely based on the last one I saw is that 27:42 I mean, I don't know if that's confirmed yet. But they they change everything. They're probably too much. I mean, look at what Rare Breed has six years. And I mean, they, it's it seems pointless. A lot of them are small changes. And then you've got the ones that do the big changes. I think that's where people notice A lot of people aren't going to notice that rare breed has changed four times in the last six years. 28:06 Yeah, I think there's a lot of thoughts on this one, but you've seen a lot over the last few years. You know, Weller had a overhaul, 17 9200 overhaul. lizer crack had an overhaul. And now you know, Baker's been the most recent and I would say probably Baker's was the most successful with it, because I can't like I've loved Baker's for a long time. And I don't know why more people didn't drink it. And all of a sudden, like it comes out in the cool bottle and people are like, Oh, man, have you tried Baker's like, this is not a new product was it 28:39 was it was not 28:40 a single barrel. So that did change. But, 28:43 um, 28:44 but it's, I mean, go back and taste it against some older bakers. And you'll be like, wow, this is really good. I love the new stuff. But I mean, that's a huge win, I think for being because people now love it. It looks so much better on the show. There's more people buying it people realize how good it is. And all they did was change the label, you know, call it single barrel. 29:08 Marketing one on one, right? The wine world taught me how to do labels and we got new bottles and they sell. 29:15 Yeah. You know how many? How many screw caps do we have on the market today? As opposed to just you know, five years ago? No, no, not a whole lot. You know it. There's something about that, that value of pulling off a cork instead of unscrew it. You know, even Weller antique, even after the redesign went to a cork instead of the screw cap. So 29:40 very old Barton. That's all I can think of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 29:45 And now What's the next one? benchmark benchmarks about to get a 29:49 overall that's doing a whole new line 29:50 of benchmark bourbon, too. Yeah. There's a whole new line extension. 29:54 I mean, Buffalo Trace just moves down the line. Right. Let me 29:57 let me assure you we've talked about done in a roundtable been over a year ago, I think that we talked about how they kind of go in the cycle of like finding something and re reinvigorating or reinventing it. You know, like 1792 was a very good example of that in the past a year and a half of maybe even two and a half years now, of what they've done to actually bring out new line extensions, repackaging everything like that, to really uplift the brand from what it had actually been before. So as we kind of continue down this path to and trying to figure out well, what how people are they going to be reaching new consumers and we look at something that we've talked about before and that's celebrities, celebrities getting into whiskey, notably bourbon, you know, there's there's a lot of things in whiskey but you know, this is bourbon pursuit. I think we'll focus on bourbon. And so in the past year, you know, we've had Bob Dylan, there's been Slipknot, Metallica, Matthew McConaughey, and now, Florida, Georgia line and Jason Aldean are now teaming up to create their own. And then also in the past two weeks, I think one that maybe took us all by shock was Terry Bradshaw. 30:56 Like Yeah, 30:56 I was I was I saw that too. And I was like, wow, I mean, Captain Kirk like I understood that one like, but like Terry Bradshaw like really? That's a new one. Did you watch 31:06 the Super Bowl? Pretty sure he was drinking it live during that. During that 31:09 broadcast. We'll talk about best advertisement you could. There's freakin terrible tiles everywhere you look at like watch every Steelers game no matter where they are. It's like there's just everywhere. It's the Anima when you buy McDonald's here run. 31:22 Yep, exactly. I think you know, a lot of its going to be back to right George Clooney is tres amigos. Right? So if you're another celebrity, you have any influence whatsoever and you have a name recognition. If you realize three guys can pull off a billion dollar brand you're gonna try and get in. Right? I think what people fail to realize or maybe not people, right? I think people realize what celebrities fail to realize is that isn't always the case like lightning. That was a lightning in a bottle type situation like Dan ackwards had Crystal Skull Baka since 2007, right and like people know what that is, but by no means is that a billion dollar brand? Right? So I think everyone's trying to cash in on their fame and do it think they're probably not going to see a huge payout, right, they may get a kick out of seeing their name on a bottle of whiskey on a bottle of alcohol. But if they're looking for a payout like the other folks had good luck. I think Ryan Reynolds is the next track to really take a very Jen super far right. I think he's Yeah, 32:16 I think that's a smart move to with the gin route instead of, you know, sure you're targeting a cool market, which I don't know, maybe we're just all wrong. And we're still like, over or under estimating the amount that people care about, like what's actually in the bottle. 32:33 But 32:34 now, I mean, I was texting with Oj leamas about this. And he said, Nobody wants to buy my shoes from a guy or basketball shoes from a guy who can't dunk. But it's kind of different in the bourbon world. You know, it's like you know, what is actually dunking in the bourbon world. So if Slipknot comes out with a bourbon or whiskey, whatever they came out with, like, people buy it, I guess I don't know. 32:58 I don't they buy it though. I mean, yeah. It's growing 33:02 like crazy. There's more 33:03 for me of what I want if they're gonna leave my four roses single barrel alone and I can actually find it on the shelf again great, you know sell it out 33:13 they'll come back and buy more. 33:15 I think I'm a little more indifferent on this one because it's like if that's what what people want to do and that brings more people into the industry and to buy you know hopefully they come in because they want to buy whoever Terry broad shall bourbon and then they're like, Oh, hold on. There's actually people who make this who make a lot of other good products. That's just one more consumer in the door. So 33:39 you're speaking as the guy you know, was sealed box here as the guy who already walks into total line and there's people around the corner and you know, you just want to check out and they all want Blanton's and you're like, sorry, you know, just you guys are driving me crazy here. And they they you know everything is impossible to get nowadays from that standpoint. You know, you don't want more people hobby. But I get where you're coming from too because it's from our standpoint of people who love hobby and love to talk about, you know, love bourbon and talk about bourbon. It's good for us, for them to bring more people in. 34:11 Yeah, I think there's one thing that I really wish that we were able to see in this world is like, if these celebrities really love whiskey and love bourbon as much as they do, like, I wish there was, like, if they were promoting it themselves, like if they were if they were drinking a bottle of Buffalo Trace or wild turkey or whatever it is, and we got, you know, we saw that more often then we're like, oh, my, like, these guys are really into bourbon. Right? Yeah. And making it versus somebody that like, you know, I don't know, maybe a picture service to like somebody drinking a four roses, and they're like, Hey, now I'm gonna start a brand, right? Like, I just, I just wish there was just something more like that was deep into it. They're like it was able to tell a story that would get people like us excited. Right? And I don't I don't think it really gets people like us excited because it feels it feels bad. Like I feel like we're just so naanum a little bit, but the thing is, is like they're not really trying to reach us per se. Right? And and I wish that there was a little bit more something that appeals to the whiskey geek in this category that says like, oh, like, this is why we want to do it because we had so much enjoyment of doing this and this and this, which, you know, you take this and you look at what Fred has done by interviewing the guys at Slipknot, same thing with Metallica. And actually like getting the story of you know, they're like, basically them and why they started the brand and really like what whiskey means to them. Like, I just don't want this to snowball to the point where every celebrity starting to come out with some type of liquor. I mean, everybody's talking here in the chat. Like I know the rock is getting ready to come out with a type of tequila. And it's it's going to continually growing, you know, it's going to grow more and more. However, I just want to make sure that you know, I it sounds bad. I feel like I'm on a bachelor Bachelorette like hope they're in it for the right reasons. 36:01 battlers, which I did have to sacrifice and DVR The Bachelor tonight so y'all are 36:05 well, man. No, 36:08 but I mean like overall like in, you know, Brian, I'll kind of go to you first like, do you see this is like good or bad for the whiskey world. 36:21 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with racket Whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey to Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership, shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 37:32 Do you see this as like good or bad for the whiskey world? 37:36 I think it's indifferent. I mean, the the people who know what they're doing and the people who who look at look at you guys for reviews there, they're going to be picking the ones that are worth buying. And I can't imagine that a lot of these are worth buying. So I don't see it as affecting me too terribly much. 37:55 Anybody else? You guys are awful quiet on this 38:00 I feel like I don't know, I gave my opinion of I don't think it's bad to bring more people into the whiskey world. Like, are we pushing it to jump the shark even further? I don't think so, because there's going to be so much whiskey. And, you know, Drake released his own whiskey a few years ago and you know, it's just something that constantly happens if there's money to be made, you're going to have these people who say hey, let's let's throw a big name on a brand you'll be the face of it and we'll handle the back end so I don't think of it as a bad thing you know, if that means that there's more bottles on the shelf when people walk into a total line and maybe they see a name they recognize it they buy it, good for them, but i don't know i don't i don't think see it as something that like kind of interferes with our lane of the bourbon nerd world. 38:53 I know any of it is gonna be good. Is what I'm more. 38:57 How many how many bottles of actually Bad bourbon Have you had four major distilleries? And I'm talking about like, 39:04 stuff you can't drink. Our major dealer is doing rock and roll band releases, though. 39:12 I mean, I think they're sourcing through somewhere. I don't think definitely. 39:18 Do we ever sure any? 39:20 Well, I mean, I mean, 39:21 no, I don't think it's any race. But I can tell you right maybe it will maybe some MGP maybe you know, Barton's and 39:30 usual suspects. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I mean, and you know, the Terry Bradshaw bourbon, it's all from Ozi Tyler right. And I believe it's gosh, it might be a three or just a four year old or something like that. So that might be one of the first brands that are gonna be coming out of OC Tyler and Brian and AC or they're making some faces but you know gotta gotta get understand about like Ozi Tyler like sometimes it gets a bad rap because the only like people pin Ozi Tyler repair tear up here like that's what that's what people my head one yeah. 40:00 Exactly I was a big mistake on their part because they there that Jacob McCall is actually a really good master distiller there and he makes an outstanding product, but they have that black eye on them because of this like Tara peer thing, because it's like, I mean, it's a, everybody thinks it's a gimmick, and nobody's gonna get a fair fair shot. So they're just I think they're actually trying to rebrand and come out with new brands that you know, aren't Ozi Tyler so they can get away from that. But back to the celebrity thing, I think it's good. The more you get it to the, if you will, it's good. If you want bourbon to grow, if you don't want it to grow, then it's bad. The more you can get into common people, it's just the natural progression of any product, the more appealing it is to the mass audience celebrities do that, whether you like it or not. Yeah, that's just that's, 40:44 it's I'm interested in a little bit of bourbon history and bourbon law. And so I've got a 40:51 great book that they can check out 40:53 and really get into it. I'm right there with you guys. I think the more people drinking bourbon, right, whether that's good or bad for people Trying to find bottles it is what it is. But the more people are drinking up, the more money that producers are willing to invest in it right? Big or small, and more. So the more legs and bourbon has to go a long time before there is a, you know, it's a boom and bust cycle. So before there's a bust, and honestly, if they can keep this up, then it's just ingrained in the American culture, right? And then you'll see bourbon out there. Let's be real. You don't want to see a bus like flavored vodka, what, 15 years ago and everyone's drinking flavored vodka 20 years ago. Let me tell you how many of you are walking through the store. Like I think I'll pick up some bubblegum vodka to drink tonight. just doesn't happen, right? If you drink bourbon now and other people see you drinking it for 1015 years have a hold on long enough. That's cultural that's generational. Right? And then we actually have bourbon taking off and just becoming more mainstream, which is fantastic. I mean, I mean, this 41:47 is this is a good discussion, because I think you know, as we it, there's a lot of things that are happening in the comments as well. People were saying, you know, like, basically there's Who was it? That was Hank Williams Jr. Our Booker was in a hurry. Williams jr music video with Dreamhouse say that there's I forget I saw something else but basically saying whoever was was was pushing dickhole a lot back in the day as well. And so I think celebrities do have a role in this right as as an advertising mechanism and stuff like that getting into it be I mean, in Mila Kunis has been doing it for a while. And that's but that's just the advertising side of it. I mean, we're talking about actually like having a hand at creating something that is a product, which is completely different, in my opinion, right? Where I think they probably have a lot more skin in the game, they've got their dollars invested into it. And so it becomes something that is a cornerstone for them that they've got to make. They've got to make successful and so if they don't, then it could end up being like Trump aka right who knows right? Where it just is no longer on the shelves or something like that. 42:54 But latronnik baka 42:57 you're sitting on it. I think it's worth something nowadays. And speaking of worth something now, I guess that kind of leads into a it's, it's always a topic we love and we hate it the second at this at the time, but that is the secondary market. 43:10 Nice transition. I know. 43:13 I try to find ways to make it fun and interesting without like Ben and myself is like, oh, they'll go people that always talk about the secondary market. But it truly is like one of those things that we're now Gosh, five months, almost six months since the since the kind of smack down if you will, yeah, really had this still exist? 43:33 No, I'm kidding. 43:34 Well, that's kind of what we're going to go into. 43:36 July. July was when the group I was running went down. So it's been over six months. 43:41 Yeah. 43:42 So there we go. I was 43:44 I was thinking it was like sometime like September timeframe or something like that, but it was before then then then we're definitely over six months. So I guess we're going to kind of talk about the current state of the secondary. Me personally, I made I made a prediction on our last of 2019 episodes saying that 2020 was going to be the kind of rebirth of it where a new Facebook groups going to come up this whole thing was just going to fly over like blah blah blah blah, who cares? And so far I've been completely wrong that has not come to fruition it is continuing to groups either be shut down, or there's just new rules and saying like no posting of dollar signs or anything like that, but there has not been a group that has started to break you know, really come up and make a name for itself. at the same exact time bottle spot has suffered a casualty, which was something that I did not see coming which I don't know I kind of took me by surprise. I don't know about you all but right now, I would say I would, I would say the current state of the market is if we're going to go like red yellow green like it's gonna be in the pink area. right it's it's an innocent a no bueno. State still, 45:01 you know, it's certainly maybe not life support but close to life support, right? It's nothing's really popped up. I think two things. One, Facebook got really good about shutting down groups where you saw a bunch pop up right after the secondary, the bugs shut down and they just kept smacking down other ones. I think a little bit of Facebook doing better about patrolling things. I think it was a little bit more of people out there saying, well, Now's my chance to report everything right. Little bit, a little bit Facebook heroes going on, we'll call it. But I think it's a loss. I think it's lost the community whether or not I mean, I never bought or sold on the secondary. But what I love doing was just seeing the latest trends, what people were really after, right? I love seeing new consumer to consumer supported caeser to a different bourbon. They just decided to get into the week before, but it really showed what people were after and what brands were becoming hot, what brands were pulling down what was coming and what people were really looking forward to. And that's just gone from just a pure, you know, gamesmanship just a fly on the sidelines watching that's gone and that's a shame. You know, and I think it's also a shame to for everyone who now Bye cases and cases of bourbon they just started get into thinking they flip it easy. Sure. Hope they like drinking it for sure. A lot of parties torn up you 46:09 still got all those diamonds? Yeah, 46:12 I'm good. I do diamonds. 46:16 I don't think the markets really that much. It's still there. It's just more spread out. There's more places there's more rules. Let me win one market goes down another one comes back up. It 46:28 it still exists. And you can't stop it. I mean, it's not going to exist is the thing and and it'll, whether it's Facebook or someone finds another platform or whatever it it'll exist. I mean, I wish it to Jordan's point. I wish you could kind of see it from the sidelines, but it's still going to exist in so 46:50 I think 46:50 it actually has been affected way more. You know, I'm kind of with Kenny where it stopped and slow down way more than I thought it would you know, I thought it would always exist. Didn't it does to an extent, but it definitely took a big hit. You know, I think just the fact that all these massive groups were shut down. I don't know if there's a group that is in the, you know, is their group in the six? Well, not in the six figures in the five figures or, or even 10,000 plus members that hasn't been shut down? Probably not. So, you know, it definitely takes a big hit. Now, it's like, you have all these, you know, people just selling well or 12 or bottles that really shouldn't be sold. nobody's doing that as much anymore because it's not open. It's not as big of market so all in all, I think it was a pretty surprising change and how it all went down. So I still think it's a detriment to the bourbon world because whether you love it or hate it, that was a big part of just watching, you know, what was getting sold, what were the trends, you know, older bottles, and Yeah, it was just kind of fun to see that stuff be sold. You know, I'm kind of with Jordan like I didn't participate, but I liked seeing that what was going on so a little disappointing. 48:11 I guess. I'll go ahead Carrie. Sorry. 48:14 No, no, no, go ahead and do that. 48:16 Okay, okay. 48:18 We need our Ryan Come on. 48:19 I know we didn't need more Ryan. 48:21 I'm talking about the secondary market I'm kind of relieved about it because like, I'm not doing like mega balls and all this crazy like, gambling and stuff like in trying to like, but it's also because it is a bummer like you used to you know, that was my night like scrolling through seeing what people are buying what they're selling what they're going for. I do love the yard sale stuff. Oh my god, it cracks me up like that keeps me entertained. But uh, yeah, I think it's, you know, I'm indifferent about if it's detrimental to bourbon. I mean, it's detrimental to us. But as a I think bourbon is just like we were talking about earlier we forget about the common consumer and they have no idea that's exist. Still. It doesn't affect them. It's still growing. Besides that, but I do think some brands like really valued from the secondary market Buffalo Trace being one of them, I'm not really sure that they would be what they were without it, and I don't and there's brands like old Scout, there's no way they would be anything without the secondary market Vlogbrothers all these MGP brands, nobody would have gave us, you know, two flips about them if there wasn't a secondary market out there. And so, I think it it does hurt us but I think people got in it early enough to where they got educated about brands that they didn't know existed and now it does suck for the people that bought bottles, but I don't know do you think like so? I'm gonna give a shout out to my boy Guthrie at toddies. I know he's listening in but do you think like liquor stores that can sell that stuff now? Does that help them? You know, with pricing or does it hurt pricing? 49:52 Well, I think in my opinion, this is this has become a basically a guessing game right? Somebody says, Oh, I got this bottle what's it worth? I mean Blake we had this conversation the other day he came across some some pre pros and he was like, Hey, what is this worth? I were like shit I don't know we don't have a database there's no there's no information and so it's like there's no way that we can really like pin a price down any of this stuff anymore. You know, and thankfully the is the even though I mean I think the bottle blue books still there because it's ran by some of our really really good friends of the show as well. But that might be the only indication of the value of the anything that's even out there in the market anymore. And even at that is still like it's a varied range, right? Like a each Taylor tornadoes anywhere from like 1300 or 2000. Like that's that's an all over the place, in my opinion. 50:46 Yeah, but if you look at it's still what's what blows my mind is that if you look at Pappy 15 despite everything that has happened to all the markets, it's established value is still the exact same as it was before all of the markets crashed. hasn't changed. It's still the exact same. 51:02 Again, I think that'll be 51:04 better too though. That's the one you can talk to anyone who knows nothing about bourbon but they might know they might not even know a bourbon is but they know that Pappy is a whiskey and that they want it. Right. It's just something that people want that they can't have bottom line. 51:16 Well, I think that's where I think you have like your your solid, you know, cornerstones of the bourbon bourbon secondary that won't change, you know, antique collections never going to change. mixers are going to change. 51:30 You know, where 17 changed a lot. 51:33 Well, yeah, no, no, I'm saying that they're, they're always going to have that secondary market. But I think it's the lower ones. You know, it's the Weller, twelves it's the victors 10 years, it's, it's those that will just kind of say, Go away, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that just means that more available. Market is more available, so 51:51 means you can go to the store and actually find it. 51:54 Not unlovable. I 51:56 think I still can't find it here. 51:58 Well, I think we still have a lot time until that goes into, you know, into Karis point as well, there are still smaller sex where this is happening, right, like just smaller groups and just spread around a little bit more. And you can't be in a mall. And if there's only 500 people in it and you get a good deal on something, then that's what it is. And maybe you drink it, and you hold on to it and you find somebody else you try to sell for the same exact price. I don't know, whatever it is, this is just it's been basically a collapse of the Empire, if you will. And so now you've got all these, these little armies that are trying to I wouldn't say try to take anything over, but they're definitely trying to keep something alive. 52:35 And the one point I would agree with Ryan about the part that I think hurts the average everyday person is if you wanted to trade a bottle, you know, used to be easy to kind of figure out values of what you had, and what you wanted and make a very similar kind of trade. You know, you're staying in the hobby, you're not trying to make money from your stuff. You're just trying to trade to try different stuff. And I think from that aspect, the limited secondary market definitely makes it harder to do that to reinvest in your hobby? 53:02 So I think that is that is one drawback of it. 53:05 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, miss those trades. 53:08 Yeah. Well, that's, that's for sure. But so there is also another thing that I kinda want to bring up and this was a an article that Chuck Cowdery actually had written I think, Jordan or Blake, whatever kind of took me on to this as well, because I know I read it. However, you know, this was this was Chuck's sort of summary is that saying that really the the secondary market doesn't matter. There's no objection to it or anything like that. He's just saying that basically, all it's really doing is just helping out a small limited subset of brands. But if you want to just go find larceny or anything else, then it's really not a big deal. And so, really, if you wanted something that you want to find good to drink, there's plenty of stuff on the shelves. But if you want to go ahead and play that game of what it takes to get there, then you know To find these limited bottles, then you get to play that game. 54:04 So I I'll chime in cuz I think we might have thrown that out there. I appreciate. I appreciate Chuck having his own viewpoint, right. But what I found ironic about that article is Chuck said, that's a setup for like, you're a moron. 54:20 Don't say it, I will. 54:23 But here's, here's what I found super ironic about that article. You know, he says it doesn't impact but a small few brands and he lists out a bunch, right? And then he's like, but there's other good bourbon and drinks such as this that you know, they're good weed and Bourbons or stuff like this. And he lists larceny and other things. And you know what? I think that takes into account what Chuck may like, right? He might think is good, but there are truly people out there who've been drinking Blanton's for 20 years or Waller you know, well, there used to be my house bourbon, I would buy a case at a time, right? Just to make cocktails or throw parties and put it out just regular Weller and now I can't find it and that's a shame. Right? And you know what, I liked it that bourbon. I know other people out there like plans They weren't selling or flipping and they just like to drink right? So the people who truly like to drink the brands now the secondary market didn't make a big difference right? And I'm glad that Chuck things you know, there's other Bourbons that might replace it but for some folks they don't get replaced even drinking the same brand for 20 years and it did impact them in a big way. So again, I respect Chuck having that opinion Dr. Ruth unknown now one debt whatsoever, but you know, it's he threw it out there so I'm gonna throw back and say, you know, it's that's a false that's a fallacy. 55:26 Well and the other reason he's wrong as he points out Rittenhouse is you know, why would Rittenhouse be $11 a few years ago and why is that gone up? It's because with bourbon all all ships are rising when you when you increase the ceiling on what people will pay for a bourbon that is popular or the people want to get that gives you room to raise the price of the lower ones and that's why we don't have heaven Hill six year bottled and bond anymore. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to have that anymore. When a distillery can make so much money, so much more money on it or so much more money from Rittenhouse it's it all rises. And that's that is a direct relationship to the secondary market. 56:11 I was gonna say we do still have it, we just have it at 30 bucks more, right? 56:15 Well, that's right. It's there. But it's it's because it's it's you've got secondary market that has increased demand. And it has increased ceiling of what people are now willing to pay. I mean, 10 years ago, I could get seven different Bourbons for about $25 that were fantastic that are now all over $100 on the secondary market and you can't find at least in lieu of on the shelves. 56:41 Yeah, speaking of that marketing, heaven Hill, bottle and bond six here. Yeah, got a new label. And now you can't find it on shelves anywhere. That's right. 56:51 Man, that's because of the secondary markets a direct relationship. That's where I think it 56:55 I think, where we probably we undersell You know, the the vast majority of the market a little bit with with not bringing them into some of the decisions that we're talking about. But with this, I feel like there is a small percentage driving the market and prices and distilleries are looking like that. We have countless examples of them looking at the secondary, and bumping prices up to that. And you're, you're trying to tell me that that doesn't drive a lot of like these rebrand names we're talking about and all this other stuff, like there's no way like, that's exactly what's behind it. Because ultimately, for a lot of us, this is fun. We enjoy it's exciting. But these are businesses they're trying to make the most money they possibly can. So, you know, I, I would have to disagree with Chuck on this one to say, No, you're kind of missing the point that while the the rudder may be a small part of the ship, it's still what steer it. 57:57 Right that metaphor down, say that one over and write 57:59 it They're very true. 58:07 Yeah, so 58:08 I'm gonna leave it at that. 58:12 No, I think that's those are all really good opinions because I and I tend to agree with the group here that I really wish that it was still around only because of for that sake of either seeing trends and everything like that the other side of it actually going away is I feel like I have a lot more time on my hands I feel like I can scroll through Facebook I I find myself getting into like high end watch groups now instead of like that's on my feed, and then somehow also joined like a hype group. And so there's like all kinds of like shoes that are coming on. I'm not a sneaker I'm not a sneaker person at all, however, 58:45 and this is 58:46 all kind of I'll bring this up because I find this fascinating, right? Like, we talked about flippers and everything like that, and how they're the scum of the earth and Battleblock in in the shoe world. It's like hey, that's just par for the course man. Yep, 58:58 yeah. Ended amazing. A world where it's par for the course. I hate 59:03 to promote another podcast on this podcast but go listen to the it's a podcast called business of hype and it's the guy Jeff staples who's like, big into the streetwear world and in the it's produced by hypebeast. But then you start to realize like, oh, like we're not doing anything new. This is in so many other like industries and like small niche communities and like the bourbon secondary market isn't something new. But But yeah, it's, it's crazy. If you look at all that stuff, especially with sneakers, like there's a whole other world there's like stock x which tracks the price of them and all this other stuff and like we're actually a little bit behind in the perfect world. And when you look at some of these other industries, so 59:49 so Kenny you looking a

Kevin Smith career as of late has been a bit of a cop out. Maybe I'm just getting older I haven't been a clerk in years and all my mall rat friends are grown up with kids and careers. Smith has seemingly been chasing after something but maybe it's time he stops movies and starts working on pornos instead. But then I got to see a reboot that was worth a damn. Jay and Silent Bob Reboot is shocking! Broadcasted live on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/zombifaction Follow my videos on BitChute! https://www.bitchute.com/channel/zombifaction/ Enlist today! Join the MovieFaction! http://moviefaction.com/rss Like Zombi on Facebook! http://facebook.com/TheZombifaction Subscribe on iTunes! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/moviefaction-podcast/id1067545780?mt=2 Help Support the Podcast on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/Zombifaction

Nothing says box office magic like a contractually-obligated lead with zero acting experience teams up for a teen sex-romp with no teens or sex with 50-something moms as the target market. Surprisingly, 2 of 3 Stinker Madness hosts say this is a do. They say that its just so bad that it comes back around to being watchable and a must-see for bad movie fans. They say that there's enough bad dancing, terrible costumes, horrendous songs, and enough hovercraft deaths to keep one engaged. They say..well who cares what they say - they aren't writing this crap. This movie is unviewable. If you happen to have a soul left, like this 1 of 3 Stinker Madness host still does, then while viewing this you may have some unintended health consequences, such as heads put through walls, eyeball clawing, execution of anvil-based booby traps, taking over Gotham after giving an interview to Robert Deniro and/or then giving a very strange speech that everyone seems to think they should be praising. The characters are reprehensible. There's plenty of "boys will be boys". There's bitch friends and douche friends and friends that ruin people's lives due to their privilege. There's nerd-shaming and internet dating mocking. There's "I'll love him no matter how badly he treats me". There's assault that's instantly forgiven and on and on the list of abhorrent behavior that is forgiven because there's a song immediately afterward goes on and on and on. The script is drivel. The songs are gadawful. And I think I'm over how silly hovercraft(s) are. Maybe I'm broken inside more than I thought. Either way, don't watch this unless you are a masochist or are touring the bottom 100. This belongs there for sure.

Have you got the PMU blues? "Why is one brow so much higher than the other?!" "Why do these lips look SO PATCHY?" ..."Maybe I'm not cut out for this line of work." PMU Artists hold a great deal of responsibility and that may cause you to judge yourself and your work a little too harshly. If you've had a bad day, this episode is for you. Vicky Martin @vickymartinvmm shares her perspective on imperfect work.  In 2000, Vicky learned how to tattoo and began to specialize in the art of Micro-pigmentation. Over the next 19 years in the industry, she has developed her expertise and in 2010, became a trainer for a London company. In 2012 she started her own training school with her sister. Vicky is passionate about giving breast cancer survivors the very best medical tattooing results to finish their long, tough journey and leave them feeling whole again. So, fueled by this passion and using her experience, blended with the global techniques she learned, Vicky created her own method for tattooing the areola and now teaches the 3D Areola (VICKY MARTIN METHOD VMM®) all over the world. Follow Vicky on IG: https://www.instagram.com/vickymartinvmm/ Follow the AAM: https://www.instagram.com/aampmuboard/  

Watch your language! That's what Stacey is trying to tell herself this week. When you're a parent of a child with a chronic condition, it's hard not to say things like "our diabetes" and "our CGM graph." But it's not "ours" exactly, so how do we better talk about this? Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Stacey also shares her frustration as she finds herself falling into the trap of perfect numbers and trends. While her and Benny's experience with Control IQ has been wonderful so far, it's also bringing back some of that perfection trap she thought she'd left behind. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription  Stacey Simms  0:00 This episode of Diabetes Connections is brought to you by the World's Worst Diabetes Mom: Real Life Stories of Parenting a Child With Type 1 Diabetes.  Available as a paperback eBook and audiobook. Learn more at Amazon or diabetes dash connections.com.   Announcer  0:15 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:26 Welcome to another week of the show. I am so glad to have you here! This is one of our minisodes the shorter episodes that have become sort of the editorial page. If you look at the podcast as a newscast, as I often do. That's my background. I'm a broadcaster local radio and television for many, many years before I started the podcast. So the Tuesday episodes which runs longer and usually have an interview with a newsmaker. That's the news. And then these episodes have kind of become the editorial. And this week, instead of the headline stop doing this or think about before you do that, which I've been Doing a lot lately. I'm going to talk about why I think what I'm doing is wrong. And maybe you could help me with that. I know I'm not alone. But I'm going to tell you straight up here. I don't really have the answer for what I'm going to talk about today. And this is really about parents. But I'm hoping that if you're an adult with type one, you will listen to this as well. Maybe it'll sound familiar to you, maybe your experience can help us. So this is all about my struggle, to, in a nutshell, stop thinking about it as my diabetes. It's not I know this in my brain. My son has type one diabetes, he was diagnosed right before he was two. We have been living with this for 13 years. And sure, my family is affected by diabetes. My family has to deal with diabetes, but my son HAS diabetes. And I'm kind of exaggerating, but you'll get a better idea in a minute why I'm saying it in such strong terms, because I know this is not helpful. So I'm going to tell you a story. This story happened in December, a couple of weeks before we got control IQ, the new hybrid closed loop system from Tandem. It does tie in, I'm going to tell you about our experience with control IQ, and then how it relates to all of this. If you've seen me talk or you read the book, you know that I'm really fighting against this pressure for perfection. And I think and it makes me laugh that a lot of people like I was just in Raleigh this past weekend talking to parents about this. A lot of people think that I now have this down pat that I know, that I that I am perfect at not being perfect. And I think what's really funny is, it never ends, right. There's no finish line to parenting, where you're like, Whoa, great job. I'm, I'm all set. right good for me. I did it. I mean, there are big milestones, like college and when your kid moves out permanently, but I really don't think that there's a point at which we can say, that's it. So we're all trying to improve. And I think this story will highlight really just What a dingaling I can be sometimes, because this stuff isn't easy, right? And we're always trying to improve. So let me tell you the story, and then you tell me how to improve. Alright, so this happened, as I said, in early December, so almost two months ago now, Benny was right in range before bed. He was hovering right around 125. And for the last few weeks before this, he'd been dropping about 15 to 20 points overnight. That was it. Right? Just a little drop and then steady. So that was a fine number to just leave alone. But he texted me because this is how we communicate in my house, even if we're in different rooms. Right across the hall. He texted me a few minutes before I was gonna go in and turn out his light. And he texted me I feel really low. In my head looking at the dexcom I said, You're not low. You're 125 I don't want to treat that. You're going to mess up our great trend. And you're just going to go high. You're going to mess up our great numbers. I didn't say that out loud. I went into his room and this is what I said. I said, “Really? Because Dexcom says 125. You feel low?” And he said, “I feel like I'm dropping. See now I'm 117.” Even without the Dexcom number moving down a smidge. I knew my hesitation was selfish and misguided. Alright, it was dumb. He's not foolproof, but Benny knows his body. He has been living with diabetes for 13 years. And he felt low. And in my head, I'm like, “Stacey, come on. These are his numbers.” Did you hear me earlier when I said, you're gonna mess up our great numbers? I mean, I, it hurts me to admit that. But it's his number. It's not mine. It's not ours. So I said, “Okay, I trust you. Let me grab you a drink. Do you think you need more than that?” “Nope, just a juice box should be fine.” Benny sleeps with an apple juice bottle by his bed. But it's it's a full like 25 or 30 carbs and he didn't need that much. So I grabbed Little can of pineapple juice, and I poured about 12 to 15 carbs, like a juice box, basically, over ice in a highball glass, because sometimes it's just gotta be fun. And in my head, I was kind of feeling guilty, even though I hadn't shared with him. I'm trying to make up for that by the splashy cocktail. So he loved that. And he drank the juice and he went right to bed. Now, I assumed I was going to hear that Dexcom high alarm pretty soon. I mean, I went to bed, but I just figured out right, I guess I just gave him 15 carbs he didn't need but instead, I woke up at 5:50am like I do every day. It showed that he had stayed between 100 and 130 all night long. He had been feeling low, he did need that juice. While I am thankful that I didn't go into his room and say, “don't mess up our numbers” I didn't say what I was thinking out loud. It bothers me that I thought it at all. I mean, after all this time I do trust Benny with diabetes. I do respect his decisions. And I know that even though he is from perfect, right? He really is safe and happy. So why do I still have those thoughts at all? It's not about the good health outcomes. I mean, that's the first thing we think of as parents, right? We want our kids to be happy and healthy. And I would be lying if I said, Well, it was out of health concern. It was because I wanted to make sure that he felt good, and could sleep well and have a great day at school the next day. That's what I'm supposed to say. But it was about the straight-line graph. It was about wanting, I don't post them, but it was about wanting to not mess up the pattern we were on. I mean, what, would I really rather my son feel crummy and ignore what he has to say to me, showing him I don't trust him. I don't respect him to see that kind of graph. Ah, so how do we get past that? Not only am I not answering that right now, I'm going to tell you another example of how it's now getting worse. And this is because of control IQ. First, let me say I love this system. tandem is not a sponsor of the podcast. They're not telling me what to say. Not that they ever did. But man, this is an incredible piece of software for us. I am so excited. We've had it as I'm taping the podcast, we've had it for about 10-11 days now. And in the last seven days, Benny's blood sugar has been in range 70% of the time at minimum, I think only for two days. For the most part, he's been in range with less work a lot less work. I don't think in the last seven days he has bolused for a correction, it's only been for food. Now the first couple of days we did have to do a lot of adjusting. And this is very typical. If you are on any kind of hybrid closed loop system and this is includes the DIY systems is my understanding the people I've talked to, you realize right away that most of your pump settings that have worked pretty well for you all this time are wrong. It's just that we are manually compensating for defaults. We're paying attention like we're supposed to, we're checking that Dexcom, we're poking the fingers a million times a day, right? We're really manually using the pump to get the most out of it. And not letting it run on its own. Because it's dumb, right? It's not a smart pump. Most of these pumps, most of the programs that we've had until recently, they're just a dumb brick that gives you insulin when you tell it to. And when you switch over to the automated systems, you really have to trust and you really have to adjust. Because not only is the insulin duration all for most of us, but your basals are off, your sensitivity factors. I mean, I'm not going to go into too much detail here of all of the changes we had to make. But you do have to take your time with this. In fact, as I'm telling you this, we are still at the very beginning of making the changes here, even with those great outcomes we're seeing. I haven't changed anything in about five days. I've talked to Benny's endo, and we're going to wait another week probably just to kind of let it play out and see what really needs to adjust cuz it gets harder, right? The more in range you are, the less you want to tweak, but I know we can make it even better. But in a nutshell, we had some incredible lows like sustained under 50 lows that we hadn't seen and of course we overtreated for those. And then we had the perfect storm over a weekend of a birthday party that was an overnight party, huge dinner that he completely forgot to bolus for and then tried to make up for half an hour later at a bent canula. So that was high, high, high high for hours and hours and hours, which you know, of course, messed up my control IQ graph. And I am not kidding. Yeah, I know he was high. I know that he said he felt fine, but you know, he didn't feel great. I know that while Yes, his health is my number one concern in my little brain. I'm thinking, well, I want to show our control IQ graph and how great it looks. And I want to be like all those other people I'm seeing with their great results right away and isn't this supposed to be amazing and I want better results. And that's what I was mad about. You know, I feel like a dummy admitting to this. But I know I'm not alone, because I am seeing a lot of my mom friends. And a lot of people I don't know, on Facebook, who are not necessarily saying it as plainly as I am, but who are definitely struggling. And sure we're struggling with the actual numbers. But I think we're also struggling with the expectations and we're struggling with our kids are old enough to do a lot of this themselves. So we're struggling now. With How do I and I'm doing this to Benny? How do I not helicopter, right? How do I not say to him five or six or seven times a day? Did you bolus? What did you do? What's going on? What do you think? How about this? Did you check? I mean, we don't talk about diabetes all that much in a day to day basis. But with control IQ and wanting to know what's going on with it, and wanting to be able to tweak it and make the adjustments. You have to talk about it. And we're out of practice. So I said to Benny, a couple of days in Look, you're just going to have to be patient with me, you understand why? If I'm driving you crazy, you have to tell me. And if you just want to give me the pump and walk away, so I can see what you did, that's fine too. But we have to find a way that I can see what's going on without driving you bananas, and that you can feel good that I'm still trusting you, I still respect you, I still think that your decisions about your body are ultimately the most important. But I need to help you with control IQ. Because at 15, and everybody may be different. But my kid is not old enough to really go through this and troubleshoot. And he's not interested. I mean, he didn't even really want to watch the training. He wants me to tell him about it. And that's fine for us, because we've talked about it now and I feel a little bit better about it. But and I'll share another embarrassing thing. I just said that, you know, the last seven days, boy, he's been in range to 80% of the time. Well, today he's kind of struggling as I'm recording this. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. But he got to school and he went over 200 He probably ate some thing, right? I mean, it's not it. You don't have to be a genius to figure this out. And then he went back down. And in my head, I'm like, should I text him? No. Should I find out? What's going? No, you should leave them alone, Stacey, which I did. But I'm also thinking, Oh, I really hope that we're in range. But in my head, I'm thinking, Oh, I really hope we're in range more, because I don't want that 80%. It's messed up. I mean, come on. Oh, this stuff is not easy. I think acknowledging that It's troublesome to think this way, is important. I think acknowledging that I'm still going to think this way, is important. I'm trying to work it through and change it. Thank you for being my therapy on the show this week. Maybe I'm yours as well. If you have similar thoughts. I'm not really sure how to get past it, other than to acknowledge it and talk it out and laugh at it a little bit. Do you have a better idea? Do you have a way that all of us who are thinking about these lines And graphs as ours, and I'm not talking about younger kids, it's so different when your kid is two, or four or seven, or even nine. But once they're in middle school, you know, this transition, to independence, their own care for them to think about it, to take ownership of it, to know that you trust and respect to them. Even if you're questioning, I trust and respect my husband doesn't mean I don't ask him questions, right? It's a difficult transition. But it's such an important one, because soon enough, he's going to be in college and independent, and he's going to be out on his own independent, if I'm lucky. So I do think it's worth discussing, even if it's a little embarrassing. And I was at a JDRF conference this past week that I mentioned in Raleigh, and I brought this up, I was with three adults with type one. And I mentioned I was going to call myself out on the podcast this week because of my graph thinking about it as my numbers. And their reactions were really interesting. They didn't tell me I was a terrible person. They didn't tell me I was a helicopter mom. They just said yeah, it's Gotta be tough. It's got to be hard. But it's really important to know those are not your number. It's not your diabetes. I think something else that's important to keep in mind is, this is so new, right? These closed loop systems are so new, there really isn't even a good instruction manual for how to know what your pumps settings should be adjusted to 10 history, the great job with the training, I think endocrinology practices are doing a great job with helping people but let's face it, most of us are getting advice on how to adjust this stuff from Facebook, which is not the best place ever, because I'm seeing a lot of people had a lot of highs, we had a lot of lows, the advice there is not going to be comparable, right? So I'm going to give myself some grace. I'm going to give myself some patience. And I'm going to hope that I get better at this, that I continue to see the humor in this that hopefully Benny continues to see some of the humor in this and that I can continue to watch my language. I don't mean keep it PG. I mean to watch my language so that I am not saying my, when it comes to graphs, or diabetes, or more importantly, maybe most importantly, about how Benny feels, right? Isn't that the most important thing? I can see that number, but it's really about how he feels, how he wants to react at 15 years old, it is well, to the time to let him do that. So I hope I can continue to work toward those goals. Well, now you know why I am the world's worst diabetes mom. I really hope that if you get a chance to check the book out, you let me know what you think about that as well. It is available as an audio copy and you can get that for free. There's lots of opportunities there. I will link up all this stuff on the episode homepage. There's also a transcript of every episode beginning this year, and that's very popular now. So I'm hoping to go back soon and transcribe more of the episodes. We have almost 300 of them now. Holy cow back next week with our full Interview episodes. In fact, next week more McCarthy is back, ask the de moms is back. And we're gonna be talking about a variety of things, answering your questions, including talking about driving, because Benny just got his promise. And yeah, we're trying to figure all of that out as well. Oh my gosh, this stuff never stops. So I will see you back here for that on Tuesday. And in the meantime, be kind to yourself.   Benny  16:27 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms media. All rights reserved. All rounds avenged.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

World-leading Brain Injury Physician Dr. Kabran Chapek, author of the new book "Concussion Rescue" shares his insights, experience and comprehensive guide to reclaiming your brain function after a brain injury.   But this is also an episode on brain health in general and everyone alive on this planet needs to think about the future of their brain health, from traumatic brain injury to Alzheimer's to dementia, you will have the privilege of learning from on the best physicians out there.   Dr. Chapek has been a staff physician at Amen Clinics since 2013. As a graduate of Bastyr University in the Seattle area, he is an expert in the use of functional and integrative treatments and collaborates extensively with many of the Amen Clinics physicians. He has a special interest in the assessment and treatment of Alzheimer's and dementia, traumatic brain injuries, PTSD, and anxiety disorders. Dr. Chapek is the founding president of the Psychiatric Association of Naturopathic Physicians, an affiliate group of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. You can find Dr. Chapeks book "Concussion Rescue" on amazon  https://www.amazon.com/Concussion-Rescue-Comprehensive-Program-Traumatic/dp/0806540230   You can do the brain health assessment at www.brainhealthassessment.com  and follow Dr Kabran Chapek on  instagram at @drkabran_chapek You can reach out to Dr Amen at  www.amenclinics.com      We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   www.vielight.com   Makers of Photobiomodulation devices that stimulate the brains mitocondria, the power houses of your brains energy, through infrared light to optimise your brain function.  To get 10% off your order use the code: TAMATI at www.vielight.com     For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com    For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runningpage/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ Get The User Manual For Your Specific Genes Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? Discover the social interactions that will energize you and uncover your natural gifts and talents. These are just some of the questions you'll uncover the answers to in the Lisa Tamati Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There's a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the "future of personalized health", as it unlocks the user manual you'll wish you'd been born with!  No more guesswork. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyze body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit:  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetuniversity/ Develop mental strength, emotional resilience, leadership skills and a never quit mentality - Helping you to reach your full potential and break free of those limiting beliefs.    For Lisa's free weekly Podcast "Pushing the Limits" subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or visit the website  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/podcast/     Transcript of the Podcast:    Speaker 1: (00:00) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:12) [Inaudible] Speaker 3: (00:13) If your brain is not functioning at its best then checkout what the team at vielight.com do now being like producers, photo biomodulation devices, your brain function, the pain's largely on the health of the energy sources of the brain cells. In other words, the mitochondria and research has shown that stimulating your brain with near infrared light revitalizes mitochondria. And I use these devices daily for both my own optimal brain function and also for other age-related decline issues and also for my mom's brain rehabilitation after her aneurism and stroke. So check out what the team do at vielight.com. That's V I E L I G H T . Com and use the code TAMATI at checkout to get 10% of any of their devices. Speaker 2: (01:05) [Inaudible] Speaker 3: (01:05) Oh my gosh, you guys are in for the biggest, most amazing interview ever. I have Dr. Kabran Chapek to guest in a moment now. He is a staff physician at the amen clinics in America, in Seattle. And this interview is about his book, a concussion rescue, which just came out in January. Absolutely fascinating man with amazing information. If you have any problem with your brain, if you've ever had a traumatic brain injury, a concussion, if any one of your loved ones have, if you're worried about dementia, if you're worried about Alzheimer's or the future of your brain health and who shouldn't be, everybody should be interested in that. Then you must, must listen to this amazing interview. I got so much out of this and it ratified a lot of the things that I'd been doing with my mum and her journey and gave me some new ideas too. So really excited for this interview. I hope you enjoy it now over to dr Chapek. Speaker 3: (02:09) Well, hello everyone. Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you all, Back again, I really appreciate your loyalty. And this week I have a very special guest all the way from Seattle and America adopted Cameron chopping up the chocolate. Welcome to the show. It's an honor to be here with you. Lisa. It's fantastic. When one of the one of your assistants reached out to me to see if you had come on my show. And so I was just so excited when I read the outline of your new book concussion rescue, which we're going to dive into today because it was like, Oh, finally, finally someone's put this together, put this all together in a book that the light person can understand. So dr Chapek, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and where you and this amazing new book concussion risks. Speaker 4: (03:02) Okay, so I'm a naturopathic physician and which if, if your listeners are not sure what that is, it's looking at treating the whole person, looking at treating the cause versus symptoms. It's, that's the philosophy of naturopathic medicine and the training. In some ways it's similar, some ways different do conventional MDs are medical doctors where we have the basic sciences, but then we have the ologies oncology, gastroenterology, nutrition, exercise, all of that. So that's kind of my background in training. I work at amen clinics, which is based on dr Hayman's work. And he's a psychiatrist. Been doing this for 30 years and 30 years ago he said, instead of just talking to people, I need to look at their brains. This is what, who they are. And so he started imaging people's brains with the type of scan called SPECT, S, P, E, C, T, single photon emission computed tomography. Speaker 4: (03:58) It's kind of like a CT scan, but it's looking at functional aspects. So how is the brain working? And so we have this huge database of scans, 150,000 scans. When patients come in, we can compare their scans to the database, we can do research. And so part of our evaluation is looking at the brain versus just talking. And I love doing labs. I love doing a really comprehensive workup and then individualizing people's treatment plans. That's what gets me excited every day coming to work. And I work in Seattle, as you mentioned live here with my wife and three kids. And I love running and being outdoors and, and and then doing this work. And I, and I wrote the book concussion rescue because Lisa, there's a silent epidemic. And you know, I say that because there are 3 million people, at least in the U S would go to the ER every single year who have had a brain injury concussion, which is a form of mild traumatic brain injury. And they, there's not a lot of solutions and options for them. And so in, in my 12 years working in mental health, I'd say that brain injury is a major cause of mental illness. Yeah, no one's talking about it. It's minimized. And this sort of, we think that there's nothing you can do. Speaker 3: (05:29) Absolutely. So Assad an epidemic. So what I find interesting is that if you talk to a lot of people, and you asked me now, have you had a brain injury? They come, you know I get to talk to a lot of people because of my background with the story with mum. And a lot of people will go, no, no, no, I haven't, I haven't had a brain injury. And then you go, are you sure you haven't hit a brain? Most of us have had something along the way and it could be a long back, even in their childhood when we, you know, got knocked out on the jungle gyms or we, you know, took the hits he had in some, some way shape or form and most people have had some sort of brain injury that has left a lasting effect and people aren't aware of the solid generalists. Speaker 4: (06:16) No, it's, it's a myth that you know, you have to lose consciousness to have had a brain injury or that you have to have gone to the ER to have a brain injury or because I had my helmet on, I couldn't have had a brain injury. Helmet just protects the skull, you know even whiplash not hitting your head can cause a brain injury. And so a brain injury or concussion is defined as like a, a hit to the head or an acceleration. Deceleration meaning like a really fast jolt to the head, like with flash is enough to shake the brain inside the skull and cause injury. If you have any change in mental status, like feeling seen stars, that's enough to damage the brain. The brain is soft like butter and the skull is hard, like a rock with many bony ridges and it's easy for the brain to be damaged because of that. Speaker 4: (07:17) It's like we're not designed to hit our heads at all. Yeah, we do. And it's cumulative. So we try and ask people who come to the clinics at least 10 times, like you said, it's perfect. It's like, are you sure you ever fallen out of a tree? You ever dove into a shallow pool? ahm Have you ever had a car accident? Have ever played context sports? You had a patient, we can call him Jeremy who when he was 21, he came to see me and he had been suicidally depressed since he was 14. Wow. And he was a scrawny kid. He was a jazz drummer. Really neat kid. But he was smoking pot every day too. Feel better. He had a girlfriend who was very, very poor relationships. She was mean to him. He needed to and the relationship just couldn't do it, didn't feel strong. Speaker 4: (08:08) And when he came to see us, we scanned his brain and it was clear he had had an injury. Yeah. On his history, his intake, there was no evidence of brain injury. He had never said that he had had a brain injury. And so I asked him, have you ever fallen out of a tree? Have you ever dove into a shallow pool, fallen off a horse, off a bike? No, no, no. I said, have you ever play contact sports? And his mother who was with him said, Oh yeah, you did start playing football when you were age 13 ish. And he was matched against the coach's son who is six feet tall. And he was like this funny little kid. He just kept getting hit really hard and had headaches. And he and that's when his depression and suicidal started. He was also diagnosed with add and he had tried every class of medication and tried to all kinds of therapy, hypnosis, EMDR, CBT, all these really great therapies and been referred by a great therapist that I knew And so when we put them on a program to heal his brain after a couple of months, his symptoms of depression lifted. Speaker 3: (09:17) Yup. Speaker 4: (09:18) And two, two years later, now fast forward, he's, this spring he's going to be graduating from the Berkeley school of music for jazz, drumming, stop smoking pot. So he's doing it. So some people have concussions and brain injuries. It's clear they're not healing. Then there's people who have some other issue in the, if you think back it may be actually due to a brain injury you didn't realize. Speaker 3: (09:40) Yeah, it is. You know I just had a question that popped up in my head when you're telling that story is even things like having low blood pressure or adrenal fatigue, you know, where you stand up too quickly and you in the, you get stars in your eyes for a few seconds or you know, is, is even vet doing any damage to our heads, to our brains. Speaker 4: (10:04) It can do a little bit. You mean like that, that low blood pressure thing? Cause you can, Speaker 3: (10:08) No, you've seen it where you have a bit of a dream of a taste. It doesn't come up when you stand up. Yeah. Sorry. Speaker 4: (10:17) Z that transient decrease in blood flow to the brain can be damaging. I mean you'll even pass out eventually we'll do because it's so, it's such a shock to the brain. But it's transient. So hopefully, you know, you put your head down, you S you get blood flow again, it's short enough that it's not going to do anything permanent. But repeat low blood pressure is a problem. You know, the brain needs blood flow. Speaker 3: (10:47) Well, I'm asking selfishly. Yeah, yeah. Very low blood pressure and have that problem. Often when I stand up, especially in the evenings and we have been a bit stressed out and tired, I noticed that I get up and I'm like, well you know, I wondered if that, you know, that temporary lack of blood flow could be damaging as well. Speaker 4: (11:09) Yeah. I don't think it's good, but I don't think it's causing permanent damage. As long as you address it, put your head down, sit down, relax, lay down. Speaker 3: (11:18) Yeah. Now dr Kabran, I wanted to actually dive into the book a little bit and actually couple of the things now with the modernist is nine. My story with my mum. Well hopefully they do. Most of them would know and I've got a book coming out too. Next months are a meatless, you know, what's really exciting when I looked through your book, a lot of the things that you've written in this book I've done to my beloved and being in New Zealand and I didn't have access to things like spics games in, in, in a lot of the fancy stuff. But I'd do what I could. One of the biggest pieces of the puzzle for me was hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And I've had a couple of experts on the show, Dr. Scott Cher was one of those on hyperbaric and how powerful this can be for people with brain injuries. So let's start with hyperbaric. What is, Speaker 4: (12:20) If I had one magic bullet, I can only do one thing to heal someone's brain. It would be hyperbaric. Okay, Speaker 3: (12:26) Wow. Yup. Totally agree. Yeah. Speaker 4: (12:30) It's a, and your listeners probably know, but it's hyperbaric oxygen is a chamber well under pressure and it pushes oxygen to the deeper structures that haven't been able to heal. And just like a diver has the bins, they go up too fast. They go in this chamber at higher pressures. This is low pressure, low pressure over time. So like 40 hours, 80 hours, 120 hours. And I actually was able to participate in a quick study a pilot study with Zachary light stead and he's, he was a high school athlete who had second impact syndrome. So he was put in, was about 14 or so. He was playing football. Got hit, went out, went back in and said, I'm fine. Coach put me back in, got hit again. Massive brain bleed afterwards in a coma for months, unable to walk and talk. And he had to relearn that. And so his parents were huge advocates of that. And that's why we have the Zachary lifestyle law or some version of it in every state in the U S where if someone, if an athlete is suspected of having a concussion, they have to be taken out and assessed by a medical professional before they can be put back in. Again, not every state has a seat belt law yet, surprisingly. Speaker 4: (13:48) So I was able to do a high prepare costs and study with this motivated kid who is recovered a lot but not fully. And we did 40 sessions of hyperbaric before and after. And of course, it's not a 180 degree with just that, but it improved his, you could see improvements in blood flow in his frontal lobe and it's parietal lobe, even five years after this massive, massive Speaker 3: (14:13) Wow, that's important 0.5 years after because a lot of people ask me, well, do I have to have had it in the past few months? And then I say, no, no. Who know, you can, it came to even Speaker 4: (14:24) Not too late. And there's another evidence of that. We did a study with 30 retired NFL football players. So now fast forward, these guys are in their fifties and sixties, and it's been like 10 20 years since they played football, but terrible looking brains. I mean, really severe damage. And they're starting to have depression. They're starting to have memory problems. They're headed towards dementia. And what we did for them was we gave them supplements, we gave them a healthier diet treated HYP treated sleep apnea if needed. And then hyperbaric oxygen for some of them as well. And after six months we were able to rescan their brains, significant improvement. Their quality of life was better, less depression, less anxiety, less depression or less anger. That's anger and better processing speed. So it's not, it's not too late. Speaker 3: (15:20) Awesome. This is really exciting. I've got a brother who was a professional rugby player and he had a number of brain injuries and I've been trying to get him in the hyperbaric cause I have a chamber podcast because he wants me to know, you know what, what really frustrates me is this is a very simple, so you know, there, there, there's a, the medical grade hyperbaric facilities, which you have a lot of in America and then there are mild hyperbaric chamber and you know, and you feel that it's very hard to get access to the medical grade ones. We hit them in Oakland ring, cross street hospital, but they won't, they do not believe they are off benefit for brain injury, which is just absolute training. Same here. Speaker 3: (16:14) So studies. And there was one clinic here in the South on end of New Zealand, adopted Tim UA, who has had a a proper chamber, you know, a medical brake chamber and he's just shut his doors after 15 years because he's sick of all of the regulations and the problems associated with secondhand. And this is the most powerful. Like if I had not had this from mom, I do not think I would have got him back 250 sessions with him and I ended up opening a mild hyperbaric clinic here. So you get to, you know, get local people access to it. And I'm a really big advocate for it. I've, I've since sold the clinic, but it's now available for other people. It's awesome, but it's not, it's using mod hyperbaric. So which, which are Brian and Brie, you know, at 1.5 atmospheres is, is, you know according to Dr. Hart who you probably know sees his ideal, obviously for, for other injuries, a little bit high pressure would be, would be better. But it's so, it's so important to share this message that this is a very powerful X is to it. Then you're like, when you're meeting up just the brain injury. Is it that his brother? Speaker 4: (17:39) No, no, it's especially for strokes. I'm so glad you did that and I'm kind of curious when she noticed, started noticing improvement along that 250 sessions, if it was early and it continued to prove or later on Speaker 3: (17:52) We had the first 33 sessions at a commercial dive company. Con allowed me to use the facility. Also I had to sign legal waivers and so on. I, I as soon as I got around to the hospital that day, I got her out of the hospital and she was like, you know, 24, seven key issue was completely bombed. Fill down to the factory, put her on a forklift in the middle of the spectrum and stuff or in the chamber. Much thought I was nuts. Right? There's nobody you can with walls. We did three treatments at that place. And in the month following the, the chamber thing got taken off overseas at a contract and I lost the access to it. And so for a month I had no chamber while I was ordering one from the S from China. And in that month is where I saw a huge gains, is her body caught up and she said yes, you started to have more speech wanting to move her and trying to communicate. And it wasn't like up and up and walking or, or anything like that. But she was starting to have a little bit of intention to what she wanted and was trying to communicate and so on. Let's see that this awesome. And then she came back. They, I had more to work with other things and unfortunately I didn't have a spec scans. I wish, I wish I could have Headspace scans all the way through this too to prove, you know, this was what, what was happening. Yeah, so Speaker 4: (19:39) The hyperbarics, you know, mostly we have the same problem in the U S as far as access. So there are a lot of clinics with the mild hyperbaric and I think it works great and I recommend people we can, they can rent chambers for a couple of months and try and get in those 40 to 80 hours in the chamber. And I see it work all the time. I, I would, I tend to layer it in as kind of a clinical Pearl is like if you have the finances and resources and it have access to it, there's no reason not to do it anywhere along the process. But because it is time intensive and costly at least make sure you have the other elements in first. Nutrition, supplements, physical alignment, sleep, start to rehabilitate with brain exercises and, and add in hyperbaric if there's any plateauing along the way. And maybe after a couple of months after starting that nutrients. That's what I reckon. Speaker 3: (20:38) Yeah. Let's go into this, the methodology here a little bit and dig deeper into we don't always do my research. I tried to get her on, you know, the good fats, MCT oil on special oils, that sort of thing. At the beginning, she could have the eight, 10, she couldn't sugar. So most of her nutrition was green smoothies, whatever I could get down here. And so your nutrition wise, what are some of the supplements that we can, because whatever you do before you go into hyperbaric will be intensified. Run it like of you know, things like vitamin C infusions or anything like that. Is that a good, is that a, for example, a good thing to be doing? And you know, Speaker 4: (21:29) Prior to hyperbaric and MCT, prior to hyperbaric and essentially a ketogenic diet with hyperbaric is I think enhances the whole a, they're synergistic. They both have antioxidant and antiinflammatory effects and they both increase healing of the mitochondria turning on genes. So the whole reason I think that ketogenic diet is worth looking at, it's not right for everyone and you just want to check with your doctor before starting it. But it's, it's not just for weight loss. It's kind of a fad right now. And us, is it in New Zealand across the world? Pretty much. And it's a, it's a low fat or it's a low carbohydrate diet, less than 30 grams of carbs a day, which isn't much until that forces the body to burn fats for fuel. Your brain is very hungry using 20 to 30% of calories in your diet, which is like a quarter of your plate. Speaker 4: (22:27) Think about it, 2% of your body weight brain using 20 to 30% of calories in your diet, so hungry, but yet when there's injury or there's some neurological problem, typically there's a metabolic deficit. The brain is not able to use as much fuel. As mitochondria are damaged, the brain is damaged and so the ketone bodies which are produced from Makita, genic diet don't take as many steps to get into the brain to be used as fuel. Whereas some of the times the glucose transporters are damaged. I can dementia and brain injury. There's a lot of correlates between the two. There's difficulty in utilizing and accessing glucose for this hungry Oregon. You know, right after brain injury, there's this metabolic deficit, this drop in glucose metabolism after about 10 to 30 minutes, which continues to stay low for weeks. And so this hungry organ, nowK doesn't have enough glucose. That's part of the problem. It's Speaker 3: (23:24) The bites, the whole problem. I mean that is part of what causes to meet. Sure. Isn't it? When you if we don't have into like insulin resistance cause you know, by bad diet for many years leading to or contributing to Alzheimer's and dementia did this as a, as a similar effect happening with a brain. But that a bit quicker. Yeah, exactly. So we can get the glucose in. So it's really, really crucial. If you are not on a keto diet and you just add an exogenous ketones, is that enough? Is that going to benefit? Speaker 4: (24:04) That's a great question. I think it's worth trying. The research doesn't, it's unclear in my mind because they've tried giving. So there's a study because they had patients in comas and they gave them, because they know about this metabolic deficit they gave them IVA glucose thinking, Oh, let's just give them glucose. And what happened was it suppressed their little bit of ketone production. They had like 16% ketones, which were fueling the brain a little bit. And that totally squashed that. And so a little bit, so it's not the answer we need to shift towards burning fats for fuel, burning ketones for fuel. So adding exogenous ketones, there's various studies where they've I think added lactate and different sort of fuel sources and so far haven't been that successful. I think was probably the best. I mean, if I had a brain injury myself for my loved ones, my family members, I'm giving them exhaustion, ketones right away, you know, keto OOS or some sort of product. And, and just in the hopes that they're getting some more fuel for their brain with all of the nutrients that they should be receiving. But it's, if you're on a ketogenic diet, MCTs and anxieties, ketones absolutely enhance the process. If you're eating a crap diet, lots of sugar processed foods, I don't think it's going to help much Speaker 3: (25:33) Standard hospital fear and you know, things like that. We hit those door and I'm like, you know, I didn't find that out unfortunately during the initial, but what I did do is at least I brought in my own smoothies and made my own options while she was awesome. They allowed you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Well I didn't always ask permission. Don't you have to do the H DHA and you know, and official oils and things like that. I'm awesome as well. And I I wish I'd known more earlier. Some of these things, you know, I did later on as I, as I, as I got more and more research. But I think so if you can't get the patient to, to do a ketogenic diet at least try with the exhausted, those would be the minimum. Speaker 4: (26:27) Right. And do a lower carb diet. No sugar, just, you know, it can be in a stepwise process. First cut out all extra sugar, no cookies, cakes, candy, sweets, especially right after an injury or at any point. Then second step would be protein at each meal, meat, eggs, grass fed, beef, chicken, whatever. Then adding more vegetables and then more healthy fats, avocados, coconut oil. And so even doing that, like is there studies showing that if someone, excuse me, these are actually animals who are on a high sugar diet compared to those who are on a normal rat chow diet and then given a brain injury, those on a high sugar diet, those rats had a lot more concussive symptoms and took longer to recover. Speaker 3: (27:16) And this is, I think, you know, I'm translating a little bit into dementia and Alzheimer's. So a huge epidemic. And the thing that we can see this coming 10 years down the track, you know, this is also a very important point for, and you know, I have the broken brain series by dr Hyman and a lot of the experts in that area the mature in Alzheimer's is known as the top three diabetes in understanding the influence of sugar and insulin resistance and not giving enough glucose as we mentioned before. It's something that people can do to protect the brain health. Now, you know, years out from actually developing the disease, which is really, you know, late in the pace people especially, you know, trying to keep your brain function going. If you're noticing memory changes and this sort of thing, at least cut the sugar out. Even a tie we can obviously it didn't so much, you know, and this is the insidious problem and, and a lot of with them, older people know they've eaten meat and three veggies and the white breathe in the ligament. It's not sugar. You know, Speaker 4: (28:39) I had a patient who I think she was about 75 when she came in. Her son brought her in and she had moved to the area from I think Indiana or Chicago, somewhere in the Midwest. And she had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and was prescribed Aricept medications or get your things in order and see you later. I was kind of, it, it's very sad that current approach to dementia and understanding me, the doctors may not have a lot of options that they've got their meds, but we do have more options actually. And so she came in, we assessed her. Yep. You've got mild cognitive impairment, may be early stages of Alzheimer's. She was living in a retirement home and just near a little downtown. Couldn't remember how to get down a few blocks to the downtown to do her shopping. And she had to draw maps and she couldn't remember her list even if she was just like three things, had to write lists and cause I have a lot of difficulties. So when she came in, we put her on this program, great programs, supplements, nutrition, exercise and let's see back in a month. So Oh and cut out your sugar because she, she wasn't overweight, so she thought, ah, I'm, I can, I deserve to have my retirement home, my treats. You know, she had a frappuccino at breakfast. She's having ice cream and cookies because it's free. It's just like at the retirement home. Speaker 3: (30:08) Oh yes. Speaker 4: (30:09) Serve ice cream. I said, you got to cut off the shirt. Just cut out the sugar. Let's do that first. Try and eat more protein and less carbs, which is like you mentioned, take the bun off the burger just even if it's not like the best quality meat, just that's fine. Just cut out the carbs first. And so she came back a month later and she was now able to, even just a month, she's able to find her way downtown. Wow. And she could remember that at least three things on her list. She couldn't remember everything, but three things she could remember. And I said, I'm patting myself on the back. Oh my God, you, you did everything. My pro, my protocol is like perfect. And she's like, I didn't take any of the supplements that you recommended. Oh boy. And I didn't do the exercise. But I did cut out the sugar. Speaker 3: (31:01) It just cut it just in one in one month you saw a change. Did she subsequently do the wrist? Speaker 4: (31:10) So then she was willing to do more and so each thing she added, like we added curcumin, we added a brain supplement. It had Gingko and Huperzine each thing she added, she got a little bit more improvement over the subsequent months. And that's what I found folks, you know, they may be a little mistrustful and so they want to try just one thing at a time. And luckily that was the thing that was really slowing her progress down. Speaker 3: (31:36) Oh man. It's so exciting. You know, like to see, you know, and you get people that have been on drugs and they've tried things and they have just, and these are not dangerous things to come out sugar and take a few supplements. You know, like we're not asking these mob America, but the side effect is better health overall and that is always going to benefit your brain anytime that you are. You mentioned Kirkman, which is your tumeric, which is another thing that I still hadn't come on and I'm on. What are some of the other sub supplements that could, is there a list of supplements that you give at as a standard or do you tailor them to each particular patient? Who, one, that's everyone's tailored, but there are some that I keep coming back to because they will compose. So the app, you know, I listens to them eat them now. Speaker 4: (32:32) Yes. Well NAC is probably available. There is a supplement. Inositol cystine. Yup. Precursor to glutathione, anti-inflammatory and just a little piece of information too. They did this double blind placebo controlled trial in 2013 where they had active service members who had a concussion like in the field. So they had an IED blast or something and then were carried or taken to the medic and they gave them NAC. Was this a double blind trial? So NAC or placebo and they were given a lot of it. And I'll tell you the dose in a second, after a week, 86% of them imp like recovered from their and concussive symptoms, whereas 42% recovered, you weren't given any. Wow. And so they were given four grams immediately days one through four. And they were given two grams twice a day. And there's five through seven. They were given 1.5 grams twice a day. So that's like an acute protocol. But NAC is important even after the fact, because many of, even though the research is mostly on acute brain injury, we know the mechanisms, many of them are exactly the same and chronic brain injury and concussion and so they apply. So NAC applies. Curcumin definitely. Speaker 3: (33:59) C is inositol a sustain for anybody who doesn't know what that means? Okay. And Q command, which is your, in your tumeric, what sorts of vitamins for that one? Speaker 4: (34:11) I would do about a thousand milligrams a day of a high quality one. And it needs to be, you can use that acutely. And also chronically, it helps to open up aquaporins. So these are water channels in the brain and you can do decrease swelling, which is especially important acutely for brain injury. Like there's this pastor who was in a car accident. I always remember. And two weeks later he thought he was fine. We went to the ER, checked out, you're fine, no brain bleed. Good. Then he went home. He was, seemed to be okay, but two weeks later he couldn't write a sermon. And I think what happened is the swelling was very gradual and slow. Not enough to be life threatening, but eventually it pushed on some of the brain regions that temporal lobes, frontal lobes, and he started having cognitive problems. So it can be this delayed. Speaker 3: (35:04) It's a light smoke, which is logical. When you cut yourself, you don't see the swelling straight away, you see it as it goes into the healing process. Speaker 4: (35:14) Exactly. Vitamin vitamin D is important. So as a fat soluble vitamin, almost more like a hormone, it turns on many different genes and helps modulate inflammation in the brain. Vitamin C I used 5,000. I use vitamin D. Vitamin C is as a buffered antioxidant water-soluble, the brain actually does well with more vitamin C, even though it's just a simple thing, everyone knows about it. It really does help decrease inflammation, that oxidative stress in the brain thousand milligrams at least a day. And they get three fatty acids. And I like using ones that are higher, a little higher EPA to DHA, which most are EPA for inflammation D to help rebuild the neuron and the cell membrane. And we try to use three grams a day of EPA DHA total. And that's what we use in that football player studying MCT oil of course you mentioned and other things, Speaker 3: (36:27) Especially oil, it's, it's important that you look for a very good quality one. W what do you type on the opposite side of problem, you know, with, with the some of the lower price fish oils [inaudible] a lot of oxidation going on. That is a problem. Speaker 4: (36:45) Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And quality is really key, especially for fish oil, like vitamin D, vitamin a, some of these nutrients, there's only a few manufacturers. Like in the, in the U S there's only three places that actually make vitamin E and every other supplement company just packages it up and charges different amounts. Vitamin E and they get three is not like that. It's really individualized per company and you need to check quality and there can be heavy metals in the fish. It can be oxidized like you said, if it's not processed properly. So that's when I wouldn't go for the cheap stuff. Speaker 3: (37:23) Okay. Very, very, very good. I'm talking on healing middle toxicity. Sorry, going a little bit off of track and we'll come back. I've done here tissue mineral analysis with mum. She's got like a moot Cori. What would be your humane mandation for getting rid of, you know, chelating these high pinning middles out of, out, out of your body. Is there anything new we want to supplement level for that type of thing? Speaker 4: (37:55) Well, yes. So one I'll just, there's a lot there. First making sure your organs of elimination are working, you know, which are organs of elimination are sweating. So the skin breathing out, toxins pooping out toxins. Having good bowel movements and not being constipated, and then urinating them out, st hydrated and peeing them out. So once all of those are open, then you can start sort of facilitating removal of metals or all toxins. And the fact that she has mercury, she probably has other things too. So solvents, mold should be always assessed for. And so I do love saunas and sweating because dr Jenny is from Canada did a really interesting study where he looked at, so what is Sana do? Like, what is it actually eliminating? And they measured in the sweat of people doing sauna. It eliminates mold metals and just chemicals, solvents. Speaker 4: (39:00) So it does all three. Wow. So that's why I love Sana because it's gonna remove all of them. And it's also been shown study out of Finland. If you're doing sauna more frequently, lower chances of dementia, in fact, that was it 2000 Finnish men or 20,000? There was a lot of them in any case. And after they followed them over many years and they found that the more saunas that they did, like five to seven days a week, they had 30% less risk of Alzheimer's versus those that just did it one day a week. So it's multiple reasons to do saunas and sweating and actually in the same study through exercise, sweat, also cleansing and detoxifying. So the fact that you're a runner and running all that gets you have been is cleansing. Speaker 3: (39:49) Yeah. As you know, is a, is a, is a huge piece of this puzzle for brain injury. As well as the most detoxifying and, and I totally eh, and someone who's sweeped every single day pretty much of their life. And I, I even even compete just to my, my siblings I can see lots of things happening in the body, so that isn't happening in mind yet. And I believe a lot of it is the, the daily sweeping, the daily mudflow, the oxygenation of the tissues. Hugely important for and also for, you know, cognitive stuff as well. Like mum, I have her doing at least two hours of aerobic activity. Very low level. We're talking on a stationary bicycle and morphing. That's all she can manage. Obviously it's CBAs but you know, two hours a day and awesome. Yeah. You know, sometimes she doesn't want to crack the whip differently. The drug Sajan that oxygen, that movement then is very, very, very important. I believe in airing her, her brain Speaker 4: (41:10) exercise is so important. Increasing blood flow, it increases especially intense aerobic exercise increases BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, which is like miracle growth for the neurons and the more intense the more you produce. And there's supplements that increase BDNF a little bit, medications a little bit, but exercise trumps them all Speaker 3: (41:33) Does. Yep. Speaker 4: (41:34) Absolutely. Much more. What about new for fact or is it also influenced by nerve growth factor? Yeah. Yes. Also same influenced by exercise interval training will increase nerve growth factor. And like you said, increasing blood flow in general is, is needed and this is a real big exercise versus anaerobic or strength training. And then, you know, just going to say about this cleansing or effective exercise and endurance athlete, like you probably does sweat, you know, for 45 minutes or so, but folks like your average person like myself, I may go for it. 15 minute run, I'm not going to sweat as much as I would in a sauna. So just keep that in mind. So people listening just cause you're doing a little bit of sweating, it's probably not enough. If you really have a problem with toxicity, you'd want to actually do some sauna and sweat for really good sweat for 20 to 40 minutes several times a week. Speaker 3: (42:39) Yeah. And that's something, a problem I have with mum. Like I couldn't put her in a sauna. I don't know why, but she has temperature regulation problems that are brain steam, hypothalamus, brainstem bleed damaged thermostat. Yeah. Well she seems to have no tolerance to heat. She's good as soon as the hate. Like we're in the middle of summer here and it's a struggle that your cognitive abilities do decline and she over hates. Is there anything you can do for them? Speaker 4: (43:16) I'm not sure. How does she do with cold? Speaker 3: (43:19) She's much better with cold cuts, very well with cold. But Hey, you know, like her ability to walk inside of this is, is impaired. Speaker 4: (43:31) Yeah. I would say may just may not be able to do this sweating. But it's interesting that she does well with cold and maybe even pushing that further and considering cold therapy Speaker 3: (43:42) you cry, cry. Yup. You know, ice man training love that is really interesting. So, and I think these extremes and change is, is a key factor here too. It's, yeah. And, and because if you think about it, we, we came from, you know, an F caveman days. We were exposed to the elements. We were exposed to coal, we weren't comfortable all day in a company. And I think having exposure to what was natural is often a benefit and being convenient. Stress, yup. Speaker 4: (44:23) Helps us to be, become more resilient and stronger. I totally couldn't agree more. Exercise cold and hot. I'm challenging the brain brain training. You know, all of these are really important. Speaker 3: (44:37) Absolutely. So, going back to the supplement regime, is there anything that we, because we sort of waned on agent, was there anything else that you'd say, Hey, you've got a brain injury. Speaker 4: (44:51) So alpha GPC really important for acetylcholine. And after stroke 1200 milligrams got to do that. So I don't know if she's taking off of GPC, but that's worth a try. Speaker 3: (45:04) Heavier on acetylcholine is that different? Alpha GPC phosphatidylcholine. Now as Seadrill calling, Speaker 4: (45:13) I see the coin. So the casino coin is that actual neurotransmitter that you're trying to make. So I see the little carnitine. Speaker 3: (45:21) Yes, I have in the past header on there. Is it good? Speaker 4: (45:25) Yeah, that is also good. Helps the mitochondria. Yeah. Alpha GPC will help you her make more acetylcholine and also help the neuron. Phosphatidyl searing is another really good one for memory. There's not as much research on that for brain injury, but I, I still think it's really helpful for memory and cognition because 10% of your brain is made out of this fossa title steering. It's in the cell membranes and Speaker 3: (45:57) Okay. Speaker 4: (45:58) Counter as a supplement. It's very, I'd give it to kids. I mean it's so safe this stuff, but it really is helpful. Alpha GPC potentially. So Gingko 120 milligrams to 240 of Gingko biloba extract. Really good for blood flow. Who present a Chinese club. Moss is a natural acetylcholine esterase inhibitor, so it's sort of increases your body's own CDOT. Coleen I wouldn't give that for acute brain injury, but chronic brain injury, dementia, any other, Speaker 3: (46:32) How do you spell that one? Lou Lou cuisine Speaker 4: (46:35) Prison. H. U. P. E. R. Z. I. N. E. a. It's M Chinese club Moss. It's from Chinese club Moss. And it's, it's a [inaudible] Speaker 3: (46:47) But you have to go out and actually buy concussion rescued because this is all that's sort of level of information in one single seating sitting is, is there's a lot, I mean I spent months and months researching to come up with the bits and pieces that I came up with. And you've written a book that actually gives people a first aid kit for Brian and a protocol to follow and in this is just so exciting. You know I'd love to, if you were down the road, I'd love to go on a speaking tour with you and give like that Rachel side of it and then the side of it, wouldn't it be just Speaker 4: (47:31) Let's do it. I'll come down to New Zealand. I've been wanting to need an excuse so, Speaker 3: (47:36) Well I use that word a lot. They're all come to America and because, because we, we talking millions of people being affected by brain injury every year in, in most people are not given anything except you know, the, well not even the diet recommendations like it's, it's frustrating said and there are just so many people suffering in silence and, and it's an insidious thing because with Brian injuries as with dementia, you don't see on the outside the stuff going on. So a lot of the people that come through our hyperbaric clinic would be so in tears that people don't, when I understood the pain that I was going through because people could not see an injury, that's a young man and he looks healthy and he can't stay in the light and he can't stand the noise. And he counts, he's fatigued all the time and people are just thinking, you're being a woman, you're not. Speaker 4: (48:40) And he starts to wonder, what's wrong with me? Maybe I am a wimp. Maybe I'm, I don't know what's going on. Speaker 3: (48:47) It's more sad. And then things like depression and personality changes where we think someone's just become a horrible person. Dealing with really cognitive problems. So having an, having understanding for people who have Dimitrio who have personality changes, we have like going on that it may be not be fault, you know? Speaker 4: (49:15) Yeah. I have to say that's one benefit of having the ability to do imaging or at least some kind of cognitive tool or test. The imaging is just so powerful because when you show someone their brain and it showed their family members their brain, that's when the tears come because it's like, Oh my God, it's not only diagnostic, but it's therapeutic. They understand. It's just, it is, there is, there is a, there's an injury, Speaker 3: (49:41) Yes. And injury and I can see it and I feel, Oh my gosh, it's not all my fault and I'm not being a neurotic or, or you know, being old. There's nothing wrong with you. You know, I'm with them and they know that there's something wrong but nobody's believing them. And that is very, very painful. And I wish we hit spec scans. He, we don't have access to them. And I wish that had been through the journey to be able to Speaker 4: (50:12) I'm just thinking what else is available? You know, there's cognitive testing that can be done just to document difficulty in memory and focus and things. Speaker 3: (50:22) Can you just ask a, you know, a clinician or do you, Speaker 4: (50:25) Yeah. You can do on our website, brain health assessment.com. I can't remember if there's a fee or it's not, it doesn't cost very much to do. And you can measure where you're at as far as, you know, focus memory in different aspects. In the clinic we use something called web neuro and that's a web-based cognitive tests that people do is computerize and manage the tension memory. Also emotion. And this brain health assessment is the exact same test. So it's, it's, it's high quality. And there's pencil, paper tests and there's also labs that can be done to measure if there's damage to the pituitary gland. It's a whole other issue cause 25 to 50% of people with a history of brain injury have damage to the pituitary glands, your master hormone gland. Oh, and maybe a little more accessible. Speaker 3: (51:19) Let's dive into this. So hormone just came from. So all of the labs that you could do this with, you have, and how do you doctor into doing them? Speaker 4: (51:30) That's half the battle, isn't it? I would, I would just say, you know, bring in the research, there's plenty of studies showing that, you know this is very, some studies say 25, some say 50%, some say even more. If there's, you know, I've had a brain injury, this is what happens. And you can document that by measuring pituitary function and you know, it's, you can actually measure in a bloodwork pituitary hormones like for testosterone, the precursor or the stimulus is LH. And FSH. This is on the book too. It's in all the labs and stuff. For thyroid instead of having what normally is a high TSH and a low T three T four is actually low TSH and low T three T four, which means that the pituitary is not sending the signal to the thyroid gland. Speaker 3: (52:23) Oh wow. Is that, so is that causing the in the like more reverse T three and I'm not talking on the receptor or is it, Oh, you're very sophisticated knowledge. That's great. I'm impressed. I'm work out forward because this is part of month's problem and reverse T three. Yes. I've, I've been arguing with a doctor and, and again, I want a full panel and I cannot get a full panel three free T for me that's too bad. Do antibodies and TSH and T four and that's all I can get out of the law at the moment. So, Speaker 4: (53:01) Right. So if, if you do, if you just do a TSH, which is the standard for screening, that's not going to tell us really what's going on because you know, if it's low TSH they may say, Oh, you're fine. It's not too, you know, it's the kind of kiss is reverse where if it's low, you're hyperthyroid. If it's high, you're hyperthyroid typically. But if you're low plus your T three and T four low, it's pituitary issue actually. So that's important to know. Any case looking at act H and cortisol is for adrenal. And then of course testosterone for men, estrogen, pedestrian for women and LH, FSH. Those would probably be the main ones. And just say, Hey doctor, please, please test these labs. You may have to cut a pocket or whatever. I don't know if you have labs where you can just, Speaker 3: (53:56) We, yeah, we do have bicycle labs, but if you want anything, you know, it's things like cortisol I do regularly and that you have to pay for. So someone like, like mom was obviously got adrenal issues. So like things like estrogen, LH, GC, if it, if it's age in an older female, that would be, it's going to be high. You know, it's, it's different than, than I would I read. That's a very deep clinical question. Speaker 4: (54:29) I guess if it's low, then, then there's pituitary issues. It should be high in menopause after you're going to have high altitude. What happens is the S that the ovaries stop producing estrogen, but the brain thinks it's still, they still should be. So the brain sends a lot of LH and FSH down to the ovaries. And so it, that's how you know you're in menopause if you have high LH and FSH. So then if you measured those after menopause and it's really low, that would be very unusual. It would be, Oh, the pituitary is not working. Speaker 3: (55:07) And, and if it's the pituitary, it's not working. Is there anything you can do about that? Speaker 4: (55:13) Oh, great question. All of these things should help peel the pituitary. I'm actually balancing the hormones. So adding an estrogen, progesterone, testosterone looking at growth hormone. That's the other one I forgot to mention. If growth hormone is low, that's very common in pituitary damage. And can really, if you can increase growth hormone that helps with healing of the whole brain in the body. Best done through exercise again. And so, and then taking the supplements, putting the brain in a healing environment will help the pituitary to also heal. So that's the supplements diet, exercise, hyperbaric. So the hyperbaric is very helpful for pituitary damage as well. Speaker 3: (56:01) It's really good growth hormone. I'm actually taking a supplement. Is it, is there any danger with that in regards to cancer? Speaker 4: (56:09) I always talk with people about that. Like if you had a tumor and you have lots of growth hormone, you might potentially growth of the tumor. So that's like balancing the two. It's like, do we want lots of growth factors or do we want to keep, like there's this whole thing about low calorie diet and low IGF one, which is a marker for growth hormone. There's this field or you know, so it's really a balance of the two. It's not one or the other. I don't actually recommend people do growth hormone because you can become dependent on it and it's expensive. It's like over a thousand dollars a month, something like that. But you can again, exercise, there's supplements or nothing are Janine this product called tri amino. There's various companies that make it and there's three amino acids that are helpful in making growth hormone, taking it bedtime. Speaker 3: (57:04) Yup. [inaudible] Voicing that type of thing or, Speaker 4: (57:07) Yeah. I think it's arginine ornithine and there's one other, but it's three amino acids in particular without other amino acids. You just want those three and on an empty stomach. And if you're really going for it and talk about this in the book, but prior to exercise or empty stomach at night, cause you grow, produce most of your growth hormone at night when you're in deep sleep. That's why deep sleep is so, it's one of the reasons why it's so important. Speaker 3: (57:35) Wow. This is how people are listening. So I've just done a couple of podcasts, episodes on sleep and the importance of sleep and when you won't have enough sleep and growth hormone is one of those things. And your hormone regulation in general. I was going to go, Oh, sleep apnea. You mentioned the briefly or sleep disruption. Sleep apnea wasn't one of the big key mumps I worked at when I was in hospital when she, she's still in hospital. She'd been on oxygen Wellington and when they transplant her to new Plymouth, she was taking off the supplemental oxygen and I noticed a decline in who w what was already terrible but was even worse. And I tried to get him to put this up and legal bank box option back on and they wouldn't. And Avi headed with altitudes ricing and altitude. Speaker 3: (58:35) And I'd been in a hot code hypoxic tent at night with the oxygen. And I had like giving myself a hypoxic brain concussion a few years ago. Growing up too high too fast because I was impatient. I slept in a half thousand meters every night, all night, knocked off. A lot of brain cells have hypoxic rag pressure. And during that time when I did this, I had a whole lot of infections because the bacteria in the body oxygen deficit. And so I was recognizing some of these when she was in the hospital, still my brain went tick, tick, tick apnea, sleep apnea. Cause she was sleeping of course, 20, 21 hours a day. And the doc said, no, she don't, you don't need the sleep apnea test. And I went and got an outside consultant for him and I got in big trouble. I didn't really care resolving. He'd done a taste and it came, make some via sleep apnea. And, and from my research and the thesis there are a lot of people who are suffering from sleep apnea who are not aware that are suffering sleep apnea. Do you think this is a massive contributor to brain injury? Speaker 4: (59:49) Oh, absolutely. Brain problems in general. I think luckily people are recognizing it more and screening more and needs to be done. If your sleep, if you're sleeping a lot like your mom was, or not feeling rested or waking up at night a lot. In fact, my father who has had chronic sleep problems, I've tried to give him every supplement under the sun, can't seem to get his sleep under control. He just did a sleep study. It turns out he has mild sleep apnea and that was causing him to wake up frequently throughout the night. Speaker 3: (01:00:20) Wow, that's interesting, isn't it? And things like even like adrenal exhaustion, you know, your cortisol levels going up in the middle of the night, like that type of thing. I mean we w I'm very much into, you know, breathing exercises and front of the peat, the parasympathetic nervous system, blue blocking at night or what are those things that contribute to good health? And very important again, a tangent. We in our company we do epigenetic testing. And this looks like a genetics and how they're experiencing lightened. Well and one of the key things there is to understand what time of the day [inaudible] biology is very very important. So if your hormones are icing between five and six in the morning and you're getting up at 5:00 AM to do a CrossFit workout, that can be very detrimental to your health and smell. Look, dr [inaudible], I know that you've got to go shortly. I just want to wait. Can people reach out to you and I definitely want to talk to you further because this is isolating conversation. I think I've ever head in so exciting. I can't wait for the book to arrive in the post. We can people reach you. We can they get the book. And what are the next steps for people who are suffering from brain injury? Speaker 4: (01:01:53) Well, great. I've really enjoyed talking with you too. I can feel your passion and excitement to help others and that's where my heart's about to because your brain is like, that's everything. It's who we are. It's our personality. That's why I do this work is to help people recover and optimize their brain function. Because I want you to be able to share your gifts with the world and just be yourself and it's never too late like end with that. It's never too late to at least try and help heal your brain for brain injury. You and your mother are proof of that. I'm so excited to read your book as it comes out next month. Congratulations. You can find my book concussion rescue. It's out. Just released a January 28th on Amazon. There's an audible version for people and a listen to it. We recorded a a video series. It's available beginning of February on the book at Ayman university. It's available there. And I'm at amen clinics Northwest and Seattle. You can just Google that. Amen. Clinics, Northwest and Seattle location. There's clinics all around the country and Speaker 3: (01:03:00) Well I personally as well with people who have my own website. Yeah, I don't, I tried to and I'm not that tech savvy, so. Okay. You must, you must get you your age. I'm on Instagram and Facebook too. Excellent. So people can reach you. Doctor, dr Kabran Chapek, Chapek sorry. Concussion rescue. I will put, I'll get all those links from you, Dr. Cameron 16 with the audience. If I can help with any way, shape or form with getting this book out there. We've got to make this a best seller right around the world because this is, this is absolute crucial work that you're doing and I'm really, really, really sorry that I paid you all this. Thank you so much for your time today, dr Kevin. My pleasure. Great to be with you. Speaker 3: (01:03:55) You really enjoyed that interview with dr Chapek, make sure you go and get their book concussion rescue a must read for anyone with a brain really. And I also wanted to remind you my book relentless is coming out on the 11th of March and is available now for preorder. If you want to grab it, you're also going to get at the moment for the next couple of weeks excess to my mental toughness and mindset Academy if you buy the book and the next couple of weeks. So that's a value of $275 that course. So please go and check that out at least at lisatamati.com and hit on the shop button if you want to help with your health. With epigenetics, we have an eerie genetics testing program, which I mentioned briefly in the show. If you want to find out what that is all about, please head over to our programs page. We've got three flagship programs, we've got the mindset, you've got the epigenetics, and we've got the run training Academy, so please chicken all that out, head over to Lisatamati.com And don't forget to give them a show, a rating and review and share it with your friends. Thanks guys. Speaker 1: (01:05:01) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

How do you become a science writer? What if you didn’t even think you liked science as a kid? What if, instead of “serious journalism”, you spent the first half of your career covering celebrities and royals, even becoming the London Bureau Chief for People magazine?Then you’re in perfect shape, at least if you’re our guest, Lydia Denworth. She tells us how she made that transition, going from People through Redbook to Scientific American using the dual powers of curiosity and ignorance (and more relevantly, the willingness to admit it). We also discuss getting grants for non-fiction research, pitching scientific topics and the literary aspect of science writing—and Friendship, which just happens to be both the topic and the title of Denworth’s latest book. Episode links and a transcript follow—but first, did you love last week’s #WritersTopFive: Top 5 Ways to Win at Newsletter Subject Lines? Because I did (and I’m winning.) This Monday: Top 5 Things to Do When Your WIP Feels Like It’s In Flames. Support the podcast you love AND get weekly #WriterTopFives with actionable advice you can use for just $7 a month. As always, this episode (and every episode) will appear for all subscribers in your usual podcast listening places, totally free as the #AmWriting Podcast has always been. This shownotes email is free, too, so please—forward it to a friend, and if you haven’t already, join our email list and be on top of it with the shownotes and a transcript every time there’s a new episode. LINKS FROM THE PODCAST#AmReading (Watching, Listening)Jess: Open Season (Joe Gunther Mysteries #1), Archer MayorKJ: Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine, Gail Honeyman (catch it on my #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series HERE)Lydia: The Great Pretender: The Undercover Mission that Changed Our Understanding of Madness, Susannah Cahalan The Ruin, Dervla McTiernanBonus Book Rec for Lydia: The Mountains Wild, Sarah Stewart Taylor (because “those Irish really know how to do dark”).Our guest for this episode is Lydia Denworth.This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator, the book coaching program that helps you get your work DONE. Visit https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwritingfor details, special offers and Jennie Nash’s Inside-Outline template.Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.Follow KJ on Instagram for her #BooksThatWon’tBumYouOut series: short reviews of books that won’t make you hate yourself and all humanity.If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)KJ:                                        00:01                    Hey there listeners, it’s KJ. Our guest today is a science writer extraordinare, and we’ll be talking everything from grants to the literary and storytelling aspects of that form of nonfiction—but before we do, here’s something else for the nonfiction authors out there: If that’s the your kind of work, our sponsor, Author Accelerator, can help—and you don’t have to go all in with full-on book coaching if you’re not ready. Check out their new four-week long nonfiction framework program that will help you nail down your structure before you start to write (or after you’re writing and realizing—dang, this thing needs a backbone!). Authors of self-help, how-to and academic texts will find the shape of their books, create a working one-page summary that reveals that shape at a glance and develop a flexible table of contents to guide you through the drafting and revision process. You can find a lot more (including previews of much of the material) by going to https://www.authoraccelerator.com/nonfictionframework. Is it recording?Jess:                                     01:11                    Now it's recording.KJ:                                        01:13                    Yay!Jess:                                     01:13                    Go ahead.KJ:                                        01:14                    This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.Jess:                                     01:14                    Alright, let's start over.KJ:                                        01:14                    Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.Jess:                                     01:14                    Okay.KJ:                                        01:14                    Now one, two, three. Hey, I'm KJ Dell'Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things. Writing fiction, nonfiction, short fiction, long nonfiction, short nonfiction, I could probably go on like that forever. We are the podcast about writing pitches, proposals, essays, and essentially, as I say, every week, this is the podcast about sitting down and getting your writing work done.Jess:                                     02:00                    I'm Jess Lahey. I am the author of the Gift of Failure, How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go So Their Children Can Succeed. And a forthcoming book about preventing substance abuse in kids. So I'm not so much writing this week as I'm deep, deep in the edits. You can find my work at the Atlantic, the New York Times, Washington Post, and at jessicalahey.com.KJ:                                        02:22                    I am KJ Dell'Antonia. I am the author of the forthcoming novel, The Chicken Sisters as well as How To Be a Happier Parent, which is out in hardback now. And will be coming in paperback soon to a bookstore near you and you can find me on Instagram at kjda and everywhere else at kjdellantonia and kjdellantonia.com.Jess:                                     02:48                    We have a guest today. We have a very patient guest. We've had to reschedule this guest an embarrassing number of times and I'm so excited that she's finally with us. And this is really timely because we've had some questions about exactly what this writer does in the #AmWriting Facebook group. So I would love to introduce to you Ms. Lydia Denworth. She is a science writer. She is a contributing editor to Scientific American, she writes the Brainwaves blog for Psychology Today, she's written three books, one called Toxic Truth on lead. A book that I really, really love called I Can Hear You Whisper. I keep it in the literacy section of my bookcase, actually, along with some other fun books, like Language at the Speed of Sight and her new book that will be coming out at the end of January on January 29th called Friendship. So this is a really appropriate and wonderful and exciting book to talk about on this podcast. Since of course I get to podcast with my best friends. So Lydia, welcome so much to the podcast.Lydia:                                  03:59                    I am so happy to be here. Thank you.Jess:                                     04:02                    Well and again, thank you so much for your patience. We've had a couple of recording dates fall through and so I'm just so glad you stuck with us through our timing snafus.Lydia:                                  04:12                    Not a problem at all.Jess:                                     04:15                    Well, we have burning questions. Not only ours, but some of our listeners, but we always love to start with the question of how you got started, how you got started writing and how you landed in the genre that you landed in.Lydia:                                  04:30                    And that in my case is a pretty interesting story because it is absolutely the case that science was the last thing I would have predicted that I would do. I was the person who took the bare minimum of science classes all through high school and college. And I was intimidated by it, I didn't think I was all that interested in it. I always wanted to be a writer and I wanted to be a nonfiction writer. So I was that kid who read the New Yorker and John McPhee and things like that when I was in high school and said, 'This is what I want to do.' But science did not come into it and I have had a relatively long career. And the first half of it was all general interest journalism, kind of. I worked for People magazine, if you can believe.Jess:                                     05:37                    Do you feel the need to go back and comment on the important social issues of our day?Lydia:                                  05:41                    I so do not, but at one point, I was a London Bureau Chief at the time that Princess Diana died for People magazine. So I have this whole past as a celebrity journalist and I worked for Newsweek for a bunch of years. And it was only when I was writing my first book, so about 15 years ago, after let's say a good 15 years in journalism, I that I really sort of became a science writer. And at that point I was doing - the way I describe it as I was freelancing and I was doing those social issue features that you would find in women's magazines, like Redbook and Good Housekeeping. So maybe it was sex harassment or lead poisoning. But I came to the issue of lead from a children's health perspective more than anything. I wrote a lot about education, Jess, you'll appreciate that. And you know, I did things like that and it was in writing that first book that I suddenly found that this, it's basically a dual biography of two of the men who were way out ahead of people understanding that lead was as harmful as it was. And then they got into this massive fight with industry over it and you know, their scientific careers were almost ruined, but they fought on, they are heroes, and they got lead taken out of all kinds of things. We know now with Flint that the story's not done. I first got into this because I was interested in a guy named Herb Needleman who was a psychiatrist and was looking at lead in kids' bodies, but the other guy was a geochemist at Cal Tech. And he was the one that understood that lead was all around the environment. And I started having to read his journal articles and oh my God, they were impenetrable to me.Jess:                                     07:42                    It's such an education, not only just being able to get through the language, but getting at the statistics. I mean, that's a big part of understanding whether you've been looking at something worth reading or citing.Lydia:                                  07:55                    Absolutely. And so, the long story short was that in working on that book, though, I found that I actually was better at all of that than I thought. And I happen to think, that to some extent, my lack of background in science has worked in my favor. I am not afraid to admit complete ignorance. I do it on a regular basis with really brilliant people. And so I just keep asking questions and I think that everybody has to do that as a reporter. But you're especially humbled when you're digging into something that you don't know anything about.Jess:                                     08:42                    Well, and your second book, you started writing about hearing because of your own personal experience. And that happens to be the area of nonfiction that I love - when it's sort of your own personal investment and personal experience that then turns into scientific exploration. So it's not just about intellectual curiosity, it's about emotional curiosity as well. And that's what really comes through in I Can Hear You Whisper because it is also partly your story.Lydia:                                  09:10                    Absolutely. So I had done this one book of popular science in the lead book, but then the question is always, you know, what are you going to do next? And here was my kid, my youngest son, Alex is is now 16, but he was just little then and and he is deaf and he uses a cochlear implant. And so I kind of felt like I had this story sitting there. But then the thing that I came to realize is that because he had this cochlear implant relatively early in the world of cochlear implants that I was essentially living a cutting edge science story. And in addition to the technology piece of it, I realized it was really a story about the brain because sound getting into the brain and what comes from that oral language and literacy. And I'm thrilled that the book is in your literacy section, by the way. That's just perfect. But you know, there was so much that I didn't know about deafness, and hearing, and sound, and reading and how it's all related until I had a kid. I mean, the first deaf kid I ever knew was my own son (in any meaningful way). So you're just starting over, and it was several years before I said, 'Oh wait, I think I really need to write about this.'.Jess:                                     10:37                    So your most recent book, the book that we're just really excited to talk about, this book Friendship. This came at a really, really good time for me. In the sense of one of the statistics that you quote is that the strengths of your friendships at around 50 predicts your health at 80. And I'm just about to turn 50 and I feel like I'm at a phase in my life where I have really strong friendships and so I am feeling good about my health at 80.KJ:                                        11:09                    Me too. I really loved that line.Jess:                                     11:09                    I really liked that.KJ:                                        11:11                    I think we're all at a moment when (and it may be sort of a cohort moment) but when everybody's looking around and just going, you know, what really matters to me is my people. Like my people, people. I mean some of those are digital people and that's cause some of those are real friendships, right? But lots of them are real people, or you know, real people that are like really right in front of you, and I just feel like this sort of decade or two of segwaying away from being able to touch the people you love when you're with them has sort of really changed our perspective in a great way and I think your book really informs that.Lydia:                                  11:54                    Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I do feel, and I'm hearing from people, that yes, my timing might be good here because everybody's thinking about this. People have seen the headlines that loneliness is a killer, which it is - as deadly as smoking. That's always been the story. But the flip side of what does friendship actually give us and how is it protective and how does it make us resilient? And the fact that there is a biology and an evolutionary story to friendship is the piece that most people do not know. And you know, this is a book of science. It's the science of friendship. But it is so personal and relevant to people's lives and what I hope they do is come away understanding why friendship and relationships are as important as diet and exercise for your health. And I'm not trying to add to people's burden for what they have to do. I think instead, I'm hoping to give them permission to go hang out with your friends. Your body will thank you.KJ:                                        13:01                    Well, I have questions about how you pitched the book because it has that dual identity, but let's not start there, right, Jess?Jess:                                     13:13                    I know KJ and I have some very specific questions about the way the book Friendship came about in terms of not just the pitch, but also the funding aspect. And I wasn't sure if that's where you wanted to start, KJ, but I'm dying to know about your funding.KJ:                                        13:31                    Which came first, Lydia?Jess:                                     13:31                    Lydia has funding from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation and every nonfiction writer wants to know, Oh my gosh, how can I get money to do this project? Because research is expensive. In fact yesterday I was just thinking about this because someone texted me yesterday saying, 'If I don't get a book contract soon, I'm not going to be able to write this book because I'm out of money to put into the resources.' This is actually an AmWriting listener, so hopefully she's listening to this episode. And I texted back, 'I just dumped almost 200 bucks on a textbook that I must have in order to just make sure I'm really where I need to be with the research.' So how on earth did you get the funding and which came first - the contract for the book or the funding for the book?Lydia:                                  14:20                    The contract for the book came first. So I had a contract with Norton and I had an advance, but I will say it wasn't a stellar advance. My advances - so I've had three and they are all over the place and the middle one was by far the biggest. And so I was a little disappointed not to get more this time, but it also meant I had to get my butt in gear and get more money if I was going to do this. So fortunately the Sloan Foundation does do these grants for science writers, in particular. They are also (since a lot of this audience is female) people might be happy to know that they are looking to support female science writers and they are looking to support projects that are about women. In my case, this book is not specifically about women, but there happened to be quite a lot of female scientists featured in the book. They're kick ass, they're wonderful and they are all through the book. And so the combination of my being a female science writer and what I was writing about, they happily gave me a grant. The only thing I wish is that I had applied a little earlier. Since you all like to get into the nitty gritty of things, you have to make up a budget and there is a lag time from when you apply to when (should you be so fortunate as to get any money) when you start getting money. And so my budget, I originally had it for an entire calendar year that I was going to be writing the book. But I discovered that it couldn't start until, let's say I originally said January to December and then in fact, and I had like a monthly salary for myself in there, and then it turned out that they said, 'Well, our fiscal year is June, so you can't start till June 1st. So I basically had to lop off five months' worth of that money I was asking for, so had I known and gotten the application in even just a few months earlier, I probably could have made it from January to December and gotten myself more money. So let this be a reminder to not let this stuff linger.Jess:                                     16:43                    Well can you apply for funding before you have a book contract or did they require you to have the book contract before you apply?Lydia:                                  16:49                    You know, I can't remember exactly. I do believe that you can do it either way, but they did want a copy of my contract. So if you don't have a contract, I think there are some other requirements. I'm forgetting. it's been a little while since I did all that. And I will say, the reason I was aware of this in the first place was because I had met one of the people from the Sloan Foundation at at a party, at the World Science Festival here in New York several years earlier. And at that point my previous book I Can Hear You Whisper would have been perfect because they also are very interested in technology and the science of technology and things like that. But I didn't know about their grant program in time. Now in that book, I happen to have gotten a healthy advance, so that was okay. So the time around, I said, 'All right, I'm gonna write to him.' They added some money in order for me to be able to hire a science advisor who actually was one of the people who's featured in the book, but I paid him. It's Robert Seyfarth, it says so in the book so I can say, he's one of the leading primatologists in this work. And he would have read some of the book ahead of time anyway, but he read it all multiple times and was so in my corner and so helpful. And also so demanding and critical. I could see what it would be like to be their graduate students. So anyway, but it was so helpful and I wouldn't have done that if it hadn't been for the Sloan Foundation request. But it was really helpful.Jess:                                     18:49                    Maybe we'll include the link for applying for these kinds of grants in the show notes so the people can know exactly what we're talking about.KJ:                                        18:55                    I think the Kaiser Foundation does something similar, too. I know they do it for journalism.Lydia:                                  19:04                    I'll have a look and see. At one point I did find a link that had kind of a list of grants and fellowships that give you some money. I'll see if I can find it for you. But at the Sloan Foundation it is through the public interest piece cause it doesn't sort of jump out and say books right away. So just FYI to people. It does have to be pretty sciency for Sloan. but there are, as KJ just said, there are these other things like Kaiser that maybe if it's more health related and other things. You know, there's more out there than I think people realize.Jess:                                     19:41                    Absolutely. There's USC Annenberg School does it for health writing as well. There's just a bunch of great places to go. So, you have the money, you have the book contract, and so you get started on the research. The question I get most often from the nonfiction writers is (and the reason I talk about it so much) is about organization of research. And I have a multipart question having to do with this. But how do you organize your research?Lydia:                                  20:11                    Not as well as you, Jess. I look at what you do and I when you show pictures of your shelves, I think, Oh boy. That's something to aspire to. So one thing that I do is that I am still the kind of person who prints out everything. I just find it very, very hard. First of all, I would like to make sure I have the hard copy. And when I'm reading through complicated scientific work, I find it a lot easier to do it with a pencil in my hand and kind of marking it up. And I don't know, it helps me. Maybe I'm showing my age, I'm just over 50. I'm 53 now as of three weeks ago. I do plenty online, so I have piles of files. For this book. I filed everything according mostly to the individuals that were at the forefront of whatever piece of science it was I was writing about, or by subject, if that made sense. Like social media. I have a couple of files about the science of social media that were by subject. I think that the trick about research, cause I can go so deep, and there's always more to research. And so figuring out when to stop...Jess:                                     21:44                    That actually leads to my next question. Someone specifically asked, how do you know when it's time to stop and when it's time to start the writing? Because the research can go on forever, as you stated.Lydia:                                  22:01                    Yes. So for me it has been very important. There comes a point where I decide to start writing, in part to figure out whether I'm done with my research or not. Because there are holes sometimes that pop up when you start to actually write it and you think you might think you've got everything. So this book, people will see, mixes animal research and human research because there's been a lot of both in this subject and the animal research is actually where the big strides and understanding biology and evolution have taken place, in terms of social behavior. But I will say that I went to a whole bunch of conferences about monkeys and apes. And finally I was at one and I said, you know, Lydia, you've done enough, you know enough about monkeys, you have permission to stop on this front. And so that was just one piece of it. But I knew I was going like sort of too far down. But then writing helps me to discover. I mean by that point you may not have heaps of time to really go far on some new tangent. But for instance, the social media chapter, there was new work happening right up until the last second. And so I was changing that chapter quite a bit between having turned in my book and turning back in the first past proofs. Because there was new science and I had been to new conferences and been talking to new people.Jess:                                     23:37                    I actually just hit pause on editing a chapter because of that textbook I mentioned. And then three or four new studies and one meta study that just came out. And in order to make sure that what I'm writing about today and fingers crossed you know, when the book comes out is as up to date as possible. But it's really hard to say, well now I'm done. For me there tends to be this moment. I continue to do online classes, and webinars, and things like that. And there tends to be this moment where I'm listening to the webinar and I'm like, I know all this and that's when I know, okay, if I know this it's probably time for me to put a lid on researching this topic.Lydia:                                  24:22                    I think that is exactly right. And I have definitely had that experience, too. But I will also say that there are some pieces of it where, especially with science, where if you're feeling that your grasp is maybe not as strong as you'd like it to be, but sometimes you do just have to wade in. I mean, I do anyway. And see where it goes and see how... My problem in my writing often, is that I have a tendency to get into the weeds and then I have to cut all that out, but I've got to write it. I've got to write it. This is not relevant to the organization and research, but I do feel that an important thing about writing about science and even if you don't really write about science, if you adopt a little bit of a science writer's approach, you're really forced to think about whether your audience is with you. And whether you've given them enough handholding, and enough signposting so that they can follow along with the story, and what's important, and why, and what's not. And so then when I go back over what I've written, I'm usually trying to figure out, tracking along with someone who doesn't know it as well as I do and see, do they really need to know this?Jess:                                     25:50                    I was going to say, that's the question I constantly have. Which is when I was going through and I realized, oh my gosh, I have a chapter that's like 20,000 words. Does my reader really need to know how many casks of beer there were on that first ship that sails?KJ:                                        26:07                    That's our new standard for too much research is if you know the details of what was in the hold of the first ship that your topic involved. Yeah, that's it. We've got a black line there, people. This is good.Jess:                                     26:40                    The problem with me is I love those details. And in some places it paints an incredible picture, like your ability to say here's how many bananas might be useful, but for the most part it's really important to say, does my reader, does my listener need to know this thing in order to understand the broad concept? And that's usually my last pass edit when I'm cutting is, oh wait a second, these next four paragraphs are so irrelevant to anything.Lydia:                                  27:15                    Just for the record, I want to state that part of why I had that detail and part of my point in the story was that these monkeys were a source of fascination for everybody at the time and so much so that they were featured in the New York Times at the time that they were traveling and then in Life magazine. And so I was sort of making the point that the New York Times was so interested that they counted the amount of pounds of bananas. But you're still right. They still didn't need to know that.Jess:                                     27:47                    The line I often say is from On Writing where Tabitha King criticizes Stephen King for writing too much about these intervening years in this one character's life. And he's like, 'Yeah, but it's really important.' And she said, 'Yeah, but you don't have to bore me with it.'.Lydia:                                  28:02                    Exactly. You maybe need to know it, but your reader might not need to know it.Jess:                                     28:14                    KJ, did you want to jump in? I've been hogging the mic.KJ:                                        28:20                    No, it's been great. I'm riding along and taking notes.Jess:                                     28:25                    Excellent. Obviously for me, this book came along at a really great time for me because I love talking about adolescents, and relationships, and friendships. But what I was most interested in with your book right now is thinking about virtual friendships and in-person friendships. And you talk a little bit about how much time you need to spend in what you call sort of togetherness makes for a friend. And there's a quote in the book about the fact that it takes 50 hours of togetherness to make a friend and 200 hours to make a best friend. So what if we spend 50 hours, you know, chatting about stuff, maybe tweeting at each other, are we allowed to still be friends or do we have to have 50 hours of in-person time?Lydia:                                  29:14                    We can still be friends. But I will say that what's interesting about social media is that most people, their online life and their offline life sort of mirror each other. People talk all the time about how the word friend is devalued currency by Facebook and things like that. But the truth is, most people know who their real friends are, who their closest friends are. And we sort of all have concentric circles of people really close, and then a little further out, and a little further out. And I would argue that if you only have a relationship online, it's more likely to be in the outer reaches of your social circles, which is fine. That's an important place to be. Those relationships have all kinds of benefits. But most of us, our closest friends, we use social media as kind of an extra channel to deepen the relationship but not exclusively.Jess:                                     30:21                    I like thinking about it that way. And you also mention that quality is important over quantity, anyway. So the quality of those relationships and you also give me a license to sort of let go of some of those fraught relationships that may not be in my best interest because you talk about the fact that ambivalent or the sort of frenemy relationships are not necessarily good for our health in the same way that all positive relationships are.Lydia:                                  30:50                    They turn out to be actually bad for your health, which surprised the researchers. They thought maybe the good outweighs the bad. But no, biologically speaking, if when they look at your blood pressure and the aging in your cells and your immune system, they see that relationship... So, just to define our terms since we are talking about science writing. So an ambivalent relationship is one that makes you feel both good and bad. Like a frenemy, like you said. And also it's important to say that the people who've done this research had a pretty broad way of measuring that. If you weren't a hundred percent terrific all the time about this relationship or it wasn't 100% positive, then it was ambivalent. And the truth is that's like half our relationships though, have some negative to them.KJ:                                        31:43                    I was going to say, that's pretty broad.Lydia:                                  31:46                    It is pretty broad and they're still sort of perfecting. You know, this research is relatively new, but it's kind of pointing to an interesting and important idea though. Which is that yes, we don't actually have to maintain every relationship. Like some of your older friends where you have shared history but who now are actually quite draining. Maybe you don't have to stay friends with those people. I'm giving you permission there, too. But for the relationships where you can't or don't want to end the relationship or sort of really minimize the relationship, then you should be working on the quality of it. Because that is really the critical thing. The research is so clear that the quality of relationships matters most and matters more than whether it's a relative or not. So that's another thing I think I would just like to point out about friendship is that the science kind of blurs the lines that we've always clung to about the importance of family over friends and things like that. Friends tended to be dropped down to the bottom, but we actually use the word friend. Like if you say your spouse is your best friend, you're trying to convey something about the quality of your relationship. Right? And not everybody would say that about their spouse. Some do, some don't. And in fact there's a hilarious study that found that in Jacksonville, Florida, something like 60% of the people said that their spouse was their best friend. And in Mexico city it was like 0%, which I don't think tells us about...KJ:                                        33:29                    It has more to do with how we define it, more than anything else.Lydia:                                  33:32                    Exactly. Exactly. But you know, the point is let's at least think about this.KJ:                                        33:40                    I like that they both start with F. It's one category for me. You know, important time with friends or family, that's one thing. That's the F section. So I wanted to come back to this question of here you were as a writer with this idea that encompassed a really deep scientific piece, but also what I think we could call a service piece. You know, the idea of friendship and how it helps us. Exactly what we're getting into talking about right now. How did you structure the pitch for this book to include both of those things?Lydia:                                  34:24                    So I think of myself more as a literary science writer, for lack of a better phrase. And that is a thing compared to really self-helpy science. So I wouldn't exactly say that this book, (and I didn't pitch it as self-help), and yet, if you read this book, you will absolutely come away knowing that you should invest in your friendships and here's a bunch of ways to do it.KJ:                                        34:59                    I wondered if there was pressure to push it in that other direction.Lydia:                                  35:02                    So some, and this is a constant tight rope that I feel I walk as a science writer is because yes, most of what's out there and that has a really big audience is the stuff that is so super accessible that it doesn't include a lot of the details that I find really interesting and important. I will say this. To specifically answer your question, what I did was pitch this book as the kind of friendship book that has not yet been written because it would have serious science in it. And that is what is new, and interesting, and important to know. And it sort of informs everything that's in those self-help articles. And so I was positioning myself in my pitch and it helped that my previous two books were similar. You know, so I have a certain style of writing. And if you are (like I am) a contributing editor at Scientific American, people do expect you to be on the serious side of science, but still completely accessible. I mean that is the thing - no matter who you are, you have to write it as if anybody will understand it. I try hard, you know.KJ:                                        36:25                    Your scientific audience is not necessarily experts in everything.Lydia:                                  36:29                    No. And in fact, one of the things that's really interesting is this book covers so much ground and so much territory that some of the experts in it, when they read it then said, 'Oh, but I, I love how you wrote about my piece, but I didn't know anything about this other thing.' And I found that I was bringing them together, somewhat. Because I was talking to everyone across the board, you know, not in the little silos that people tend to work in. But, I just want to say though, that there's a real tension. So, you know, my agent would say, 'You really need to come up with a way to pitch this that will appeal to everybody.' But then for instance, the Sloan Foundation, their question was how sciency will this be? Because we are only really interested in it if it is in fact a science book. But you can write a science book that has all kinds of story in it. I mean, science is story. You know, it's figuring out how we know things, and there's a lot of plot twists, and intriguing problems, and it's the evolution of thought in some ways. So I ended up deciding that I have to be me. You know, you do you, right? Don't you guys say that? And that I was pitching it as not self-help, but yet in the overview of the proposal, it really did say that this book will put friendship at the center of our lives. It will show us these important things we need to know. And one of the things I say a lot is that is that we think we know all about friendship because it's familiar. But in fact there's a huge amount we don't know. And also we do not in fact prioritize it always quite to the extent that we think we do. And so those kind of larger statements that are in the proposal and that I talk about when I do publicity are very much about sort of trying to pull people in and tell them why this is relevant to their lives.Jess:                                     38:36                    I think one of the reasons that I loved - I mean I love this book - but I really loved I Can Hear You Whisper because there was this really personal element and that I love reading science books that are also part memoir and that's also a really difficult line to walk. In fact, the book I'm editing now turned out to be so much more memoir than I ever expected it to be. In fact, I was really scared of it becoming a memoir and yet all of a sudden now I'm at the other end after a couple of years and it is very much a memoir. So much so that we've amped up that side of it. But I think that's what makes the science personal. And I think that's what helps people say, 'Oh, Oh, so that's why it matters. That's why these numbers matter. That's why these statistics matter because they're about personal stories.' And I think you do a beautiful job of walking that line, which can be really hard to see sometimes.Lydia:                                  39:27                    It can. And thank you, I appreciate that. I will just point out (as a sort of craft example) that the introduction to this book starts on this island in Puerto Rico where people are studying monkeys and that's a pretty surprising place to start a book on friendship you might think. And yet, I think it's interesting because it's surprising, and it makes for a really great scene, and it also sort of signals that this is a new way of thinking about friendship. So I wrote all that with some other stuff about the big picture stuff in that intro. But I ended that chapter with me coming back from Puerto Rico and finding my then 17 year old son on the couch with his best friend where they were playing video games and it felt like they had never left from when I went to Puerto Rico to when I came back. It was as if they had never left. So there's a scene there in which I am doing the typical parent thing of don't you guys have anything better to do? And don't you ever get up off this couch and all that stuff. And then I suddenly realized, and this did really happen, I said, 'Oh wait, hang on a minute, Lydia. They look a lot like those monkeys you were just watching in that they are hanging out together, and they are laughing, and they're joking, and they're literally sitting in proximity on the couch, and maybe you are only seeing the video game as a parent and you are not seeing the visceral connection that is going on between these kids. And so I put that scene at the end of that first chapter or the introduction specifically to get at exactly what you're asking about. To show why and how this stuff is useful in thinking about our own lives and our own relationships and friendships.Jess:                                     41:20                    And that's great storytelling. I just, I love that. I am smiling from ear to ear. I mean, to me that's when you have those moments when you're writing. I talk about this all the time about that buzz, when you really feel like, oh my gosh, it's happening. The writing is coming together. And in those moments where you say, 'That's the story.' That's when my heart just flutters. I just get so excited.Lydia:                                  41:46                    Exactly. I tried to do that all through this book. I didn't really want to just sort of throw in a whole lot of random people that you only meet briefly. So I decided that the memoir part, I do have sort of myself, and my family, and my good friends kind of sprinkled through the book because that seemed like the most organic way to get at what's true about relationships. And I fully recognize that we are a little subsection, that doesn't make it a diverse thing. But that's not the point. The point is just to sort of provide those kinds of moments of recognition and resonance for readers.Jess:                                     42:31                    That's what it's all about. Speaking of which, cause we are getting to the end of our time. I hate making these jarring transitions cause I could talk about this book for ages because I love it so much and I love science writing so much, but we are running out of time and so I would love to talk about what you have been reading and what KJ and I have been reading. Do you have anything you'd like to shout out book wise?Lydia:                                  42:53                    I would love to. On the sciency front, I have been reading Susannah Cahalan's new book, The Great Pretender. Have you read it?Jess:                                     43:04                    I'm really excited because I loved Brain on Fire.Lydia:                                  43:06                    Yes. And this is such an interesting book because it really is about the history of psychiatry and mental health. But it's this totally great story about a study that was done years ago that kind of where they sent sane people into insane asylums essentially, and tried to reveal. You know, it was like the investigative journalism of science about what does it take to get out of an insane asylum?Jess:                                     43:38                    But that's why I haven't started reading it yet. Because frankly, I know about this experiment. In fact, we were looking at the book and my husband pointed to it and he said, 'Oh, I know that experiment.' And he was explaining it to me and I said, 'That is terrifying to me.' Like being a sane person in an insane asylum and then having to like prove that you're not insane, yet that makes you look insane. That whole concept freaks me out.Lydia:                                  44:05                    And then there's a real plot twist though in this whole book. But it turns out that that study is not everything that we thought it was. And so there's an extra

Generational trauma can go undetected by those who continue to pass it on, not realizing that they are passing on negative patterns. When it comes to sexual abuse, these patterns can be passed on because of fear and lack of information or education to change those patterns to positive ones.When we become educated about how to recognize the patterns we can learn how to become self aware and then take the steps to break the patterns that are destructive, not just for ourselves, but for the generations that came before us and the ones ahead of us. I invite you to listen to hear all the ways that you can break the cycles of abuse and create empowering patterns in your life, your family and your community! Subscribe & Review in iTunesAre you subscribed to the AboutCONSENT™ podcast? If you’re not, I invite you to do that today! I don’t want you to miss an episode. I’m adding Spanish bonus episodes to the mix this year and if you’re not subscribed there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on those. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!If you’re loving the podcast and want to express your love for it, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too! Your review helps other people find my podcast and they also fuel me. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. I appreciate you! TRANSCRIPT:Speaker 1: those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George SantayanaSpeaker 2: Welcom e vm Benny Those two about consent. The podcast that sparks conversations about creating consent, culture, boundary repair, sexual empowerment, orgasm, equality and raising a new, sexually conscious and consent empowered generation. This is a safe shame. Free judgment Free zone. We're both survivors, and those who support survivors are welcome. I'm your host, Russell Rivera.Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by consent Parenting My online platform for Survivor parents to learn how to keep their kids safe from abuse. Did you know that Children of Survivor parents have a five times higher chance of being abused? Because survivor parents don't know or learn the tools needed to prevent abuse, they tend to over protect instead of empower and prepare. You can change the statistics by becoming an educated parent. Get started by downloading my free guide seven ways to teach your kids about body safety, boundaries and consent by going to about consent dot com forward slash guide. The link will be in the show notes to get your free copy today. Now let's get back to the show. Welcome back to another episode of the about consent podcast. I'm really excited you're here today listening to another episode. I just wantto extend my gratitude to you again because getting your feedback is always so amazing for me. It gives me life. It gives me fuel. And I can't say enough about how important it is, really? To hear the feedback to know what are the things that you are truly resonating with? What you want to hear more about all of that is really just amazing. And so I want to thank you for all of that amazing feedback reviews. And so I wanted to start a weekly shout out of, you know, review spotlight. So if you are the kind of person that loves to give back when you receive something amazing like a review for the podcast, I want to shout you out and thank you and just let others know that it is actually resonating with other people, right? So that Ah, yeah, if you want to post review and a ratings on iTunes, I would most appreciate it, But I also want to shut you out. So I wanted to kick it off with this week, starting off with MelissaMoo87 hosted a five star ratings, and this is her review. Amazing Resource. Rosalia is such a great host and interviewer, and I love that she's willing to provide language. And resource is around a topic that is so often not talked about. More education is needed in this realm for both adults and parents and our Children, and I love that she is fearlessly leading the charge. It must listen for anyone wanting to empower themselves and the Children in their lives. MelissaMoo87 Thank you so much for that review. I truly, truly made me so happy. It made my heart smile because I absolutely agree with you. More education is needed in this realm, and I'm here for it. And I know so many other amazing educators are. So I want to thank everyone who is doing this kind of work in the space and for all of you who are supporting it. So thank you so much. Please keep the reviews coming. So today I'm talking about generational trauma. So what is generational trauma? Well, according to Tamar A. Hill, a licensed therapist and certified trauma professional, she defines intergenerational trauma as a traumatic event that begins years prior to the current generation and has impacted the ways in which individuals within a family understand, cope with and heal from trauma. For example, the patriarch of a family may suffer from an untreated severe mental health disorder, which causes him to engage in harmful behaviors towards his daughter. This daughter, having endured years of emotional and psychological abuse, now has her own family but has not been able to release herself psychologically and emotionally from the torture she endured. And as a result, she begins to exhibit many of the same behaviors of the patriarch, which leads to her own Children exhibiting similar behaviors. These behaviors, including dysfunctional ways of coping, continue for generations. Thes unhealthy behaviors become a quote unquote normal way of raising Children within the family, and that is directly from Tamara Hill explaining how she defines intergenerational trauma. Now, before we dive into this episode, this solo episode, I want to let you know that I will be talking about child sexual abuse and rape trauma. So if at any point this feels too heavy, please stop the episode and take care of your mental wellness. If you need to just take a break and come back to it. That's definitely okay. Or if you feel this is not for you at this time, that's also okay. Please, just make sure that your mental health is the most important thing that you need to care for and come back to this when and if you feel ready. I'm not diving into specific details, but I will be mentioning incidents. And so I just wanted you to be aware of it so that it's a heads up. But with all of that said and done, this episode may also be deeply eye opening and motivational, which is really what my hope is. So why am I talking about this topic? Well, if you heard Episode two of the podcast where I talk about my story and my why of creating this podcast. Well, then you know that as a survivor it didn't just start with me. And unfortunately, everyone in my family has been deeply impacted by trauma to the point that one of the members of my family has CPTSD, which if you're not familiar with that term, that acronym, it stands for complex, post traumatic stress disorder. Most people would know PTSD. That's a more familiar one. But see, PTSD is complex, and essentially what that means is that it was a number of events with different levels of intensity or severity of that particular trauma or of other kinds of traumas, which were all compact ID over a series of time. Now, Michael, on taking on the issues of abuse awareness and prevention. My goal with this is to break generational patterns in cycles. And so I wanted to open up a bit more and share more aspects of my own history with you in Hopes Sig, you may be able to relate you. It may resonate with you in different ways on different levels, Maybe help you connect the dots for yourself. And of course, more importantly for me is for you to find ways to also begin breaking your own generational traumas. So perhaps you are maybe the first in your family to experience sexual violence. You have the ability to end it there instead of it now continuing to become a cycle where passes on so it would end with you where you would not have to pass it down. And that is my hope, really, for everyone listening, no matter what level or type of trauma, no matter if it happened generations before you, maybe many multiple, long, deep generational trauma, which is probably more of a likelihood. Unfortunately, when you look at the statistics, there is a beautiful saying that yes, trauma can be passed down through generations, but healing can also be passed down. So with that, I said the intention for this episode. So it wasn't until about five or six years ago that I found out that my mother had been violently raped at 14 by her teacher, and she had never told anyone except her husband after they had been married. But beyond him, she felt too ashamed to tell anyone else for fear that she would be either ostracised or worse, not believed so. She kept the secret to herself until years ago, and it explained so much when I found out when I heard the news and it wasn't even something that I found out directly, it was through my sibling and they also had a really big eye opening moment of understanding our mother so much better, so much more clarity in an explanation of you know why she couldn't talk about sex, why she was so afraid of her Children looking too, quote unquote provocative, even though it probably wasn't at all because she was afraid of inviting unwanted attention. It explained why she was so overprotective and never let us do things like sleepovers, Which for me was something I always wanted to do because I saw all of my other American friends constantly having sleepovers. It ultimately explained why she was always so strict, especially because she was an immigrant in a new culture that she also considered to be way too liberal. Compared to the way that she grew up and with the religious background that she grew up with, which also demonized sex and sexuality. She was afraid to tell us the deep down reason that she feared boys and men even looking at us once it all explained her anxiety. She had no idea what had happened to my siblings and I because she was very worried about what could happen out in the world, so much so that she couldn't see what was happening in our home, but also because she couldn't talk to us about how to protect ourselves or that we had rights to our bodies because she didn't realize that she had rights to her own body, particularly because they were violated when she was so young. And also the culture that she grew up in, which I think we still have in our culture, is one that our bodies ultimately don't belong to us. So we went out into the world as we got older, without the understanding, without the language or the tools to know how to navigate the rape culture filled world that we live in. So I don't blame her. I understand her. I have compassion much more even now, knowing about her history about her past. I understand her and all the parents like her, who went through similar experiences and lived out their lives in similar ways. For example, this year I met a woman who had not experienced sexual violence. However, her mother is a survivor and exhibited the same kinds of behaviors that my mom did over protectiveness and strictness that almost borders on paranoia and in turn. Although this woman herself was not abused, she now has Children and finds herself exhibiting the same kind of over protectiveness and anxiety about her child's safety. So even if it doesn't get passed on directly through that experience of assault, it can be passed on through psychological and emotional experiences. Most survivors, in fact, live with even higher levels of anxiety when they become parents, especially when their child is nearing the age when the parent had begun to be abused, if it was child sexual abuse or when they had an experience of rape, even if it was just once, which is more than it should ever be. And it becomes a very taxing experience. The child, however, is the one that becomes the bearer of the anxiety until they grow up and have their own. And so the cycle repeats in one way or another. So what do we do? How can we break the cycles? And that's really what it comes down to at the end of the day. How can we stop this from repeating and happening forward? Right? And there are very many ways, and there are so many that it can almost feel overwhelming because you don't know where to begin. How do you even start but it really begins with us learning how to heal ourselves. And when I talk about healing, he can be really scary to think about it. If you are the type who has PTSD or CPTSD. Because it can feel like you've been carrying this really heavy load all your life that you haven't wanted to really look at. But it's really heavy, so you really want to put it down. But you're afraid if you put it down, you now have to look at it. And if you have to look at it, it means that you probably have to examine it. And if you have to examine it, it means that you have to unpack what's there. And that could be a really scary proposition, because what you've been trying to not look at your whole life, you are now being told to look at now. Here's the thing, though, as I've been learning about healing and as I've been going through my own healing journey, there are ups and downs. There are waves that ebb and flow. There are moments that feel really intense and others where it feels like Maybe I'm done healing. Maybe this is it. This is where I can breathe and just take it all in and enjoy life. But to be honest, healing is messy. It's not linear, and it can feel really heavy at times. But when you get through that muck through that heaviness, you feel like you've let go of a piece of it. Finally, and things start to feel later. Now healing is only one part of how we can break the cycles. Healing is a very important part, and it is probably at the foundation of all of the other parts that I'm going to recommend based on my own experience and what I've seen work for others. The next piece that's really important is learning to develop the courage. Two. Ask for support to Ask for help. To take back your voice and share your story. Now that doesn't mean to get on a podcast like I'm doing and share your story with the world. It simply means to find the person or group or therapist that you feel comfortable enough to share your story with, because when we can voice and vocalize, we can finally give less power to the thing that we're so afraid of. And then we realized it's a lot lighter and that's part of the healing. The next part is that once you've developed that courage and you start to realize that you have a lot more strength and courage than you ever believed you had, you can now start to empower others. And by that I mean specifically the offspring, the Children in your lives, the child that you are now responsible to care for, who you don't want to pass down the trauma two and you may feel like, Well, my child is now 12 and is it too late? Have I already done damage? The truth is that it's never too late. We always have an opportunity every single day, every single hour, every single moment is an opportunity and an invitation to break the cycle. So no, it's never too late. And more importantly, it's always important to step into that role of empowering and educating, because not only are we breaking the cycle by empowering and helping our child learn all of the things that we didn't get to learn when we were Children, but now they're going to be carrying on that healing and that empowerment forward, and that is truly exciting. So the ways that we can start is by one realizing that intergenerational trauma is a thing. It is something that we have experienced ourselves potentially, that we don't want to pass on, so that awareness is really important. To become aware of it and make it part of our mindfulness is the first step. The second step is to determine a path towards healing, to determine how we want to step into that. And when I say that I'm not telling you to rush to a therapist and sign up for 12 sessions with someone or figure out how you're going to, you know, do you buy books or do you take courses or do you do this or do you do that? But it may start with something a simple as learning how to be kinder to yourself, to be more loving towards yourself, to talk kindly to yourself, to take more time, to take care of your whole self. Mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, physically and two make it a priority. And from there, when you gain strength as you gain momentum towards self love, you can then truly move into that next phase of healing, and that can look very different for everyone. It may be at that point that you were willing to share with someone. Maybe at that point you're willing to finally seek a therapist or someone who is specializing in healing of some kind. Maybe it's holistic. Maybe it's energy. Maybe it's some other kind of somatic healing, right? So there's so many different ways that we can step into that. But simultaneously, as we're doing that, as we are starting to care for ourselves as we're starting to heal, that through osmosis starts to affect our relationship with our Children. Because as we're kinder and more loving toe ourselves, we have more compassion, and we begin to see our relationship with our Children differently. And as we become more empowered ourselves, we realize how much more we need to do that for them as well. How much we need to step into that role of educator and protector, not toe over, protect the to empower right, too. Give our Children the tools, and so that is how we ultimately break the cycle. The more we educate ourselves on prevention, education and radically empowering our relationship as a parent and child, the more that we can truly help our Children become their highest Selves and break the cycles. So those are the ways that I would recommend to begin breaking the generational cycles of trauma that have come from abuse in our culture in our family lineage. Maybe we don't have any of that, and we're the first ones. So let's break it right there and not past that forward. So I hope that those ideas those recommendations, those suggestions give you some pause for thought and help you realize the ways that you can start empowering yourself and your family and break the cycles. My name is Rosario Rivera, and it is always my honor, too. Share this time with you. I thank you for spending it with me, and I hope to have you back next week for another amazing episode. Next week I have the joy of interviewing Janeane Sanders. She is an author and publisher of Children's books that are all about helping kids learn about body safety, boundaries, consent, diversity, tolerance, love, compassion and she's just simply amazing. I know you're gonna love the episode, so if you're a parent. You most definitely want to tune in. So thank you again. I look forward to seeing you. And again if you enjoyed this, please do share it with those that you love and tag me screen Share it. Tag me on instagram so I can shut you out Thanks so much. And I will see you next time.Speaker 2: Don't miss the next episode. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast. And I would be so grateful if you took one minute to post a five star rating and reviews on iTunes so that others can also find this information. I will be shouting you out and thanking you on the next episode. If you found this useful, be sure to share it with others as well. Let's continue to create consent Culture One conversation at a time. Stay empowered.

The notes I read from for this episode:Service and giving back using Jason McCarthy GoRuck guy on Jocko.Friend, Dan Zehner, knows JasonTold me about his episode on Jocko Willink's podcastOne section resonated with me because it described what I feelHe speaks as a veteran and starts by describing owingJason says elsewhere in the conversation that military service isn't unique in providing these results. Other kinds of service do too.The sense of service and stewardship, and the depth and meaning of teamwork and community seem similar.I hear how most people describe the interaction with the environment, grasping to reusing disposable cups.They sound like they feel shameful and guilty, as if someone else and not their behavior, was causing the feelingsListen to Jason. Wouldn't you rather sound like him?Beyond feeling better about personal action, think of the potential to lead, to create that feeling based on effective results in othersImagine helping transform American and global culture, or your local community, to become clean, to foster and value stewardship, community, and connectionWho wouldn't want this?The recording starts with a question of JockoHear how much Jason wants to share the meaning and purpose of this activityBy the way, speaking of Dan, we became friends over his doing the exercises in my book Initiative, which led him to create his life's dream project, meeting the top people in the field in the process, and partnering with a dream partner. I'll include a link to his blog, where he is recording his experiences doing the exercises.If you want to do something meaningful with your life and haven't found a passion to build it on or how to bring it to life or your work, I recommend my book Initiative. Do I sound passionate about my work? This podcast resulted from what it teaches.Post-episodeHe talked about building a bridge between worlds, giving back. Maybe I'm projecting, but I see stewardship, especially environmental stewardship, overlapping with what he talked about. It's service.We who have acted on our environmental values have to build a bridge to because judgment, guilt, shame, facts, figures, doom, and gloom aren't what we're about, or at least not what I'm aboutStewardship for me is joy, community, connection, meaning, value, importance, purpose, and passion.The stories I know of people who have acted bring out those things.Let's make environmental action more about these things. I consider it my responsibility.Dan Zehner's blog on doing Initiative's exercisesGoRuckA Forbes article on Jason McCarthy, How A Special Forces Soldier Built A Multimillion-Dollar Backpack BrandThe Jocko podcast episode featuring Jason, 208: March Forward, One Foot In Front Of The Other. With Jason McCarthyJocko's TED talk See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

All right. Welcome to your Thursday episode, mindset radio. I'm your host Jeff Banman. Listen, before we get started on today's show I made an error in my broadcast at the beginning of the year when we were talking about the a hundred day challenge. I said it was going to begin on January 16th. I was incorrect. So the date that is well-researched and defined is the day that most people drop. Their new year's resolution is January 19th. That aligned with my plan to begin the program on a Sunday. So as a note of quick correction we will be beginning the a hundred day challenge on January 19th. If you want to get in and start with us right then and there, great. Get over to mindset radio.com backslash op your life or just go to mindset radio.com. Click on the banners, pop on over it, get registered for it, get in, get involved with me with it.It's going to be a good time. At least that's what they say. It'll be well worth it. And then after January 19th, you can hop in at any point in time cause we're going to just make sure that it's running. So on Tuesday, had the privilege of Dr. Richard Gasaway, former fire chief retired from essay matters, situational learning matters on the show. So if you did not listen to that, I highly, highly recommend you go back and pick it up because it was truly a great one. It was a great episode, is a phenomenal conversation. I am, and I've said this before in the podcast, if you're a kind of a longterm listener, you kind of know that I am not a big fan of just people that teach situational awareness cause I think it's only a quarter of the battle. And not a lot of people approach it well or look at it in its entirety or full scope or really get into it at a level that I believe support you in developing a solid awareness profile, situational learners profile and you know, an amazing capability to really be able to do your job effectively.So the conversation was radically awesome. In my opinion, I really respect chief Gaz away. His research, his effort, his work and his methodology is absolutely solid in my opinion. Which you know, carries about as far as this podcast, but but at least from my background and what I've seen out there, what I've taught for years, I've really do, I appreciate him. I appreciate what he does, his approach to it, and the fact that he's got some real meat on the bone with it. So if you did not catch that episode or you haven't connected with him or you don't follow him, please by all means do all whose information is up in the show notes on mindset, radio.com. I don't care if you're in the military, in the fire service, in the law enforcement, community dispatcher, EMS provider, emergency manager, entrepreneur, business leader, whoever it is you are, that is listening now, there is value in what he's doing, what he's offering, the conversation that we had.And so by all means, get back over there, listen and tune in, see where it applies. Take the nuggets that are offered. It was, it was a good shell. So on today's episode, here's what I want to do. I want to kind of go one step further than we did on Tuesday. And I want to talk about predicting the future because it's a huge part of our job. Whether you look at it that way or not, I hope by the end of this conversation you will. Now, I wanted to tie these two episodes together cause I believe they just go directly in sync. You see, fundamentally, I believe that being aware is the gateway or is the source for us to read and then predict the future. And it's critically important. And I'm not talking about years out, I'm not even talking about months out, days out, weeks out.It's not really what I'm talking about. In a lot of contexts. Now in some, we may get there, but what I'm [inaudible] I'm really speaking to is our awareness, our ability to be hyper present to the conditions as they exist right now will lead us to the actions that we need to take to produce the results that we want to produce. And all of that is a move from where we are now into the readily near future. And so really when you [inaudible] think about this in context and you just go with me for a second, cause you may be sitting back in your car or you know, listen to and going. All right, here we go. So I kind of want to talk about this for a minute because I want to, I want to challenge your brain on this one.So I always believe right that are, that are that the proper level of awareness that our awareness is what gives way to action if we're not reading or seeing the conditions as they are, if we're not in tune with the conditions as they are, if we're not taking in the right information, right, the information that's available to us clean, like just as clean as it can be without judgment, without our own shit in the way, if you will. That's the gateway to really ultimate performance. That's the gateway to operating at a whole different level. Because when we do that, you know, the situation guides us. It tells us what we need to do. It tells us what actions we need to take. It tells us where we need to go, how we need to move. You know, if we're looking at it from the fire service standpoint, it's like the conditions as they are right now.Tell me my next move, do I stay in? Do I get out? Do I, you know, vent. Do I, you know, what do I need to do? How do I approach this situation at hand? You know, if I'm in the military, it is reading the conditions. Maybe I'm, you know, you know, in a village trying to have a conversation and watching things unfold and seeing people, you know, move in a certain way. I'm seeing the indicators that say things aren't going well, that gives me the, the information that I need clearly to start moving into a course of action that I need to take. And so, you know, here's the disconnect with that. And that's a, that's an easy statement. And you know, I don't think there are really any of you that would disagree with that statement. The problem is very rarely are we actually there.So like very rarely are we available to the conditions. Are we available to what's taking place? And that's just, you know, let's just lay it out. That kind of is a human pattern that is a, that's like a glitch in the system. And we're, you know, this month, this whole month is really focused on our mental acuity. And this is why I want to talk about this because if we look at it, our body, our biology, our sensation, right? Our sense is give us the ability to kind of really read the environment what interrupts that is the narrative or the thoughts or the thinking that has to occur around those senses. It's very difficult unless you've really done the work, unless you're really willing to take a look at it to begin to not label, interpret, bring in previous experience that may not be relevant to it may cause a corruption of, you know, it's like, like in a corrupt data file, right?Your biases, your beliefs, your own personal stuff, your negative history, your past trauma, your things that have impacted you in your life that you, you know, may or may not even be aware of or may not be aware of how they play out. Like all those things are, are, are working to corrupt the data that's coming in, right? Corrupt the information that's coming into you. And when that happens, when we give, we give that up or we, you know, when we're enabling that to happen, when we're not paying attention to everything, then we've got a bad flow of information in. And we're really making decisions leading us to action that are really based more in a an expectation that we've created for ourselves or others or the situation or, you know, the people we're trying to serve or whatever it might be. And that's not a great place to operate from because we will all, you know, expectations.Nine times out of 10 get unrealized. So that's a Gannett glitch in the system that kind of leads us down a road. We don't want to go. You know, when we start talking about biases or kind of our interpretation that comes through our own previous experience, right, that can really begin to shape our decision making, you know, and then the actions, subsequent actions that we take from that point. Because you know, that starts coming in in the should, right? The ifs, the winds kind of the, the idea of, of what you want it to be versus what it truly is. And you know, this is, this is easy to play out in certain areas of our life and very difficult to play out in other areas. But you know, where you begin to see growth and where you begin to really step up your game and really begin to operate it at a, at a higher level in all areas, right? I mean in, in communicating with your team and running and gunning and you know, run in and out of burning buildings or whatever to whatever the situation is, you know, or even coming home. It is a matter of justSeeing things and I'm breathing there as they are Now.You may be sitting there going, well, but you know, I, I need my past experience and that helps me do this and how it helps me do that. And it does. It does. There's a place for it. There's a, there's a a reason why we build experience. There's a reason why we train the way we train. There's a reason why I want to expose you to everything I can expose you to because I'm giving you options. I'm collapsing the time-span between, you know, recognition, decision, action, right? I'm speeding this cycle there. And there's high value in that. But when that slams into an expectation of how it should be, or if it was this way, or if it was alway or a real structured bias against something for something you know, you get attachment to an outcome or result. When those slammed, that's where we go awry.That's where we start to get really clouded in our awareness. You know, and this is just a component of what kind of throws us off track. This is a component of our humanness that we just need to be one aware of, no pun intended, but we've got to bring some internal awareness to that. We've got to be able to call ourselves out. We've gotta be able to call bullshit on ourselves. We have to be able to kind of resist the you know, the aspects of falling into those traps there. They're just a bunch of trap doors that we can fall into. And so really what I want you to think about, you know, when you look at it from a practical standpoint and kind of a technical or tactical standpoint like we've talked about on Tuesday, you know, we've always got to kind of back that up with Dan.Okay, cool. What are the behaviors behind that and what's the humanness behind that? And then, you know, what's really going to kind of throw me off my game? And so, you know, this is just kind of one piece of the equation that can really begin to impact how we see things. Now. We had a great conversation on Tuesday. We started talking about things like radio traffic and stressors. And you know, how various stressors impact us in certain ways. And, and again, here's another layer that we've gotta deal with. Here is a piece that comes into play. And so, you know, for instance, like my background and you've heard me talk about this, but when I would design a scenario or design an exercise, you know, I had, I had kind of two to dial, two sets of dial knobs and one of those sets is really relevant to what we're talking about today.And it was the application of stress. Now, old school stuff, you know, the way I grew up being trained the way we generally kind of Trump most training occurs. It's like, let me, the more I can pile on you, the more I can push you, the harder I can push you. The more bombs, the more bullets, the more, you know, pallets right in the, in a burn building. That's, you know, that's quote unquote good training. The problem with that is it is good training, but it's, it's limited, right? So I classify stress in our world in three ways. One is direct stressors and those are things that are directly correlated to the mission at hand or the job or the duty or whatever it is we're dealing with. And you know, I mean in, in general terms, I would say 95 plus percent of the people that operate in this world are really good at managing, mitigating, dealing with, working through the direct stressors because that's our job.I mean, our whole job is to deal with that and we've become very attuned to those. We can become, you know autopilot around a lot of them. We get it. We have an idea of what could happen. We know we've run the what if games. We've really worked on those. And so we're good at those. I don't need more of them in my development to tell me I'm good at them, good with them. So the second layer that we look at was, and we talked about was the indirect stressors. Now, the way I kind of frame these are, you know, these are things that can completely interrupt my mission. They can completely push me off pushed me off my, my objective they can totally disrupt what's happening. They kind of come out of the blue. They're often unexpected.It's like being blindsided, right? Driving down the road blindsided. But there's at least a moderate level of awareness to the possibility of them happening. Okay. So I hope that makes sense. Right? So an indirect, straight, direct stressor. We got it. We're good. We know that shit's coming. We know how to deal with it. It's part of the game. Indirect stressors. We have a general expectation that it could happen. We don't always expect them to and they can really impact our ability to perform and or our ability to actually, you know, complete the mission or do something. You know, guys fall through a floor in a house fire, right? That's something we've trained for something. We plan for, something we discuss, we put it into our brain patterns. We talk about it. And you know, we don't, it's not a, Oh, this is going to happen at each every, each and every time.So that's an indirect stressor. And from the research and watching this and doing this and putting it, it's practice. You know, we're still, we're still pretty good at those. Every once in awhile, depending upon the severity and what's going on. They may throw some things off the game, especially if they are wildly unexpected. And then that's a whole nother issue we can talk about on another show. But generally speaking, you know, we are pretty good at them. Well not always, but it's a, it's a, it's a better scope. This third factor, that was the unique thing that we found when we were doing all this work and developing the methodologies and looking at this is what I called a satellite stressors or you know, you can refer to him as the peripheral stressors. So these are interesting because these are, these are kind of a set of applied stress that we experience that has no relative connection to the mission at hand or the job at hand or the situation at hand or what's actually taking place.They have no impact. They have no, you know, play out in the outcome, any of it right there. They just occur. You know, it may be kids on the battlefield, right? Not a great one, or kids in the area when you're about to, you know, take down an objective or something and they'll may probably run away. They're not right in the middle of it. But they're out there or like I've talked about on Tuesday, you know, radio traffic, you know, you're, you're responding to an incident, you've still got one radio on the main channel. You know, you hear that, you know, engine five got in an accident and all of a sudden now you're thinking about the guys on engine five and you know, your best friends driving that day. And now all of a sudden that's a, that's a satellite stressor that ha, and you're on your way to a house fire.So that what that causes now is all kind of a level of cognitive dissidence, right? It causes me to separate and draws my attention elsewhere from what's going on in front of me. So here's the problem that we found was when we really kind of amped the satellite stressors, the peripheral things in the environment that the annoyances or the irritations or the, the things that it kind of subtly impeded progress but didn't really, you know, because they were frustrating. We watched just this massive drop in wearness and performance in producing the results that the, you know, the teams were out to produce. And, you know, and so this is a huge play into our ability to stay present because the other factor is this, the kind of this cognitive separation that occurs in a way, right? This, this is where we talk about the mental acuity aspect.It is the, the drawing my attention away from the mission at hand, the focus on what needs to take place, the things I can deal with. You know, I'll say like out on the range when we're doing our meditation shoot stuff, I'll tell guys all the time, I said, Hey, you know, you've got to give up the control. You want to have the control you need. And I'll say that again. So it's you gotta give up the control. You want to have the control you need. And we've talked about that in breathwork especially like there's a control to the inhale and then giving up control to the exhale. Just allowing the breath to leave the body. It's a great little practice to get into because really these types of situations are no different. You know, so can I, can I do anything about age of five in the accident as I'm going to a house fire with people trapped in a Marty stress and I'm everything else.And Andrew five just wrecked. I can't write. I have a mission in front of me. I'm worried about my buddy. Sure. But if I let that play out, when then when I show up on the scene and I started doing my size up where I start to do my walk around or I start to collect the information I need to collect. It's skewed your getting bad data at that point because a good chunk of your cognitive energy or brain power, your mental capacity is being utilized in a space in time that has no bearing on the current need. Right? The current point of attention. And so that's another big piece that we talk about, right? And that can come in little minor ways. You know, dispatcher say certain things or you know, there's some miscommunication between the officer and the driver or you know, the officer on the fireman, he didn't quite hear things.Now you're worried about stuff. You've got to really tune yourself into what is, what's impacting you, what is, you know, something you can deal with, something you can manage, something you can control. What is it you can't control or can't deal with or can't manage and all ultimately, does this give me the ability to execute my mission and do what I need to do right now? Or does it take away from that? And no, that's kind of a constant mental game. That's the, that's that, that's that kind of peak level of a level of mental acuity that enables you to ebb and flow in the environment to see what you need to see. Allow the system to processing information rapidly, you know, against training, against previous experience, against all the stuff. Clean and clear of biases, cleaning clear of expectations, wants and wishes. And, and really just gets down to you, your team, your people in this moment right now, handling this situation as it is and taking these actions because this is the result we're producing.This is the road we're traveling, you know, get on it, get in line, let's make this happen. And I can separate all those things out. And so that really to me is where we take, you know, this level of situational awareness, this level of awareness to the situation. The environment, people, the others, you know, if you've listened back to my other podcast where I talked about awareness and kind of broke down the, you know, the four points I discuss, you know, all of those things come into play for how I need to be available to read the conditions and when I can be available to read the conditions, I get to do something cool, which is predict the future. You know, I sat in a class year, you know, seems like a hundred years ago now, but I think when he started teaching the art of reading smoke class you know, Jim Kaiser, it was like magnificent to me because it was truly the opportunity to get in and see things as they were and then where they would be going.You know, and that was all based off reading the conditions in the smoke conditions and understanding that you have, you know, structure, burning contents, burning, what's going on, what's the, you know, how what's the fire load inside? Like, you know, what's the velocity, how's it moving? How rapidly is a traveling, what's a projected heat inside? I mean, all of these sing, all these things you can, the environment will tell you, we'll just show you, we'll just lay out right in front of you. You know, if you're an officer, you know, on the streets, you, you can look back at call after call after call and be like, man, I knew this was about to happen. I knew X, Y, and Z. You know, you felt it. You sensed it. You saw something. Did you connect to what you saw in that moment?Maybe not. Right? But I can look back. This is where, you know, foresight 20, 24 site comes into play. When you're present, when you're there, it, there's no doubt because it's actually happening. You know, it's not a version of what's happening when you've settled in, when you been able to mentally transition from wherever you were to this moment right now, and you've made yourself available, men were then we're just dealing with like facts and evidence and, you know, quote unquote truth, right? We're dealing with what is so in this moment. And that's a powerful place to be. That is a, that is a a subtle skillset that again, really drives who you are and how you act. And, you know, most times you'll acquire those skills. They wanted two things happen. You either acquire those skills and become that way over the life of your career, or you go kind of the complete opposite direction and then you're just left with like, no, it will be this way.And so this is how I see it. And unfortunately, you know, people are like that and you've got to deal with that. But you know, if you're listening to this podcast, my guess is you're probably somebody who is wanting to is either go on. Yeah, that's, that's, that's right. You know, you just, you just explained how I feel most days or, yeah. That's where I'm going. That's what I want to do. That's how I want to develop myself. So, so yeah, I mean I think that's really the, the core components when we're looking at kind of the human impact, the internal impact on the external world as it relates to how we drive and build and create our awareness profiles. You know, how we become in tune with, and if you didn't listen to the episode for my four points of awareness the situation, the environment, others and you and to me, if you are not aware in each of those go sections on the quad, if you're not truly connected, each one of those all simultaneously and individually, you're, you're not aware because you're missing something if you're not aware to how you are, what's going on for you, what state of being you're in or state of mind you are in at a given point in time.If you're not connected to the other people around you, whether that's on your team or the people you're dealing with. If you're not really connected to the environment and the impact it's having on you and the impact you're creating on it. And then of course the situation as it is happening and as it is unfolding, you know, if you're not connected in all four of those areas, you're not connected, right. You're just, it takes everything to, to make that link. So, so yeah, I mean that's kind of a may, it sounds like a little bit of rambling. I'm not sure you'll have to give me some feedback, but, but fundamentally I think that's where those are the areas that we've got to get curious about. And you know, what do you do about it? You get curious. You begin to listen to yourself first, right?You begin to heighten that self-awareness model that is like, okay you know, I'm wanting it to be a certain way, which now I know corrupts the information coming in, so I'm going to give that up. I'm going to set that down. Or, you know, I, I really accept the fact that maybe I don't like this community or I don't like these people or you know, I have a way that this goes or you know, and it always happens this way or you know, these people are always like this and you know, if those live in there, those are true for you and some of you know, that's, it's gonna impact you. It's going to impact your ability to see things as they are in the moment. Mmm. That doesn't mean everybody goes out and gets a hug. Not by any means whatsoever. That's not, that's not what I'm speaking to.But you know, everything is different. No situation is ever the same. You know that, I know that. We all know that. We logically know that we will speak to that, but yet we treat things opposite of that way too often, you know, don't do house fires from the same Hutu police calls are the same. No two emergencies are the same, you know, no two callers and the nine one one are the same, you know, no two villages are the same. Like, we can kind of globalize everybody, but when we do that and we're really screwing out right then and there before we, even before we've even step out the door, we're screwing it up. So I talked a little bit at the beginning of the show and I said, you know, this is where it gives us the chance to read the future and I feel like we've, we've covered some of the topics that deal kind of in the, the current situation and the relative immediate future.Like so what's happening in the arm suite, what's happening in the next 30 seconds, one minute, five minutes, right span. Like how is the situation unfolding if you're at a command level, if you're looking at things on a larger scale, if you're dealing with larger scale incidents, if you're dealing with military actions, if you're dealing with, you know, a much broader spectrum, the same thing can blow out a little bit. Right? When I stepped back from kind of the the tediousness of certain aspects and get a view of what's taking place and get a real awareness of, you know, she stepped back into half of my world, right? To get a real awareness of the battle space, what the current situation is and then where that situation is moving, right? Where are the trendlines going? How are we beginning to move in, you know, the space that we're operating.When I can do that, I can then begin to really understand what is taking place and begin to see kind of the options for progression, right? So I can really begin to say, okay, well if this is currently happening and this is all true and factual information and it's not tainted, at least to the best of our ability, this is as accurate as we can have a picture we can create and get. Then you can see that there are only a few, you know, lines of approach forward and you can exercise those, you can look at those, you can run those out, you can run the scenarios based off that. And it really gives you an opportunity to be predictable in a way, you know, predict the future in a way that you may not normally do. But if that current picture is based off biases or assumptions or you know, you the ways you think it should be, or frustrations or past incidents if you're not coming kinda raw to the table, then you're going to miss some stuff.So I think the essence of today where I want to leave you is a stop cropped in the files, right? Stop corrupting the data and, and take the time at the incidents where you can to see what might be impacting you and just have the conversation with yourself. Just be honest with yourself or a little bit like really assess or go back and look at some of the incidents that maybe didn't go well or you think they could have gone better. You kind of know maybe you screwed something up or you didn't screw something up, but it didn't quite play out the way you expected. Like there was something off from it. Take those, take those into an internal state first. No blame, nobody else gets rained. Responsibility for it. Just you, you get to sit back and you'd be like, okay, what, what did I see?What did I not see? Why did I see what I saw and why didn't I see what I didn't see? Right? And so you're able to kind of just ask those questions and look at it in a way that enables you to begin to see where things interfere, where the interference is coming from, where the disruption is happening. You know, you, maybe you were just frustrated. Maybe it was you were, you know, hadn't done the trans, the mental transition from the last call to this call and you know, maybe this was your 500 time to the same house or the same people you know, and basically the same call except this time, you know, it went completely arrive. What, what did you miss? Not from like a guilt standpoint, but from what caused you to not be hyper present to that situation as it was that time, right?Not the 50 times before, not the multiple calls before. What happened in this one? What didn't you see in this one? What indicator didn't you pick up on? You know, and so that's a, that's a healthy thing to do, especially when you do it in that way. Cause you know, you're not a, you can't get into the blame or the guilt aspect or the something you did something wrong. You can't do that. You know, if you did something wrong, you did some wrong but, but don't dive into that world. This is an exercise that enables you to really create a different pattern, a different brain pattern moving forward. So I really hope that makes sense to you. I hope that adds to your capacity and then kind of expands the conversation from Tuesday. I'd love to hear thoughts on it. So whether you're commenting on the article online, on mindset radio, you know, the show notes and stuff, or in Facebook or send us a note in the mindset radio on Facebook.You know, get in comment under the post when I make it right. And give me your thoughts on it. I'd be curious. This is a good, this is a good conversational topic to have, right? This is a, this is one of these that, you know, if you're listening, you know, maybe you guys are talking about in the squad car, maybe you're using this episode or kind of the foundation of this episode for an in station training or you know, if you're doing the chalk talk or the whiteboard talk or something you know, this is a, this is a good one. This is a good one to exercise is a good thought exercise to play out. And a lot of ways and you know, if you need some help, formulate some training, shoot me a note, let me know. I've got some great stuff around this.Things I used to do, you know, across all the spectrums of my life and, and the various places I operated or worked. I've got some really good techniques that seem to always prob really cool conversations and get you in touch with what each other, what you each other seeing. So feel free to shoot me a note wherever it is. You live, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, email, whatever it is, just send me note, knows a Hey dude, send me some of that stuff or you know, let's talk about it. Happy to share that with you. Happy to make that available to you. So, all right Joe, we're going to wrap this episode up today. Thursday next week is going to be pretty cool. We're going to continue this month through with really these aspects of mental acuity and taking a look at some stuff. Again, a hundred day challenge if you're up for it, if you're ready to step up to it and really take on some stuff.Don't forget swing by mindset, radio.com backslash hop your life up into the program. All those, it's donation-based, all that goes to the foundation and supports the podcast and the training that we're delivering. And again, if your interested in bringing some of the training to your department as you hear in the spots on the show, get over to the, get over to the site, fill out a grant app. That's a, that's an empowerment tool for me to go raise money. And really get some good stuff out to you guys. So we've got some things coming up this year with some departments that look like they're going to be a lot of fun. So you'll see some more stuff from us and you know, as always, be safe out there. Keep your head in the game, step up to it. If you ever need anything, don't hesitate to ask. So, all right, we will yeah, we'll talk to you next week. Have an amazing weekend. Enjoy it. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. 

What does it look like to love yourself? We've both gone through periods of time where we just don't like ourselves. I think it's important to care about yourself so that you're ready to love others. Maybe I'm wrong. We kinda talk through this idea on this episode. Enjoy!

Episode 48: What if you're actually making this whole business, hitting your goals thing...harder than it needs to be? I've identify 6 belief that run like soothing background noise in your mind and are causing your experience to feel hard. In this episode, we dig into those 6 beliefs so you can hear them as optional and begin catching them in your own mind when the record starts to play. If one or more of these is familiar...this episode is for you: Change / business growth should be easier Change / business growth is easier for OTHER people I'll do it later Maybe I'm not meant to ___ It's going to be hard. I would rather not do hard right now. (sometime in the future would be a better time)

Download MP3 Merry Christmas! 今年もクリスマスにまつわるエピソードでお楽しみください。今回はドイツのクリスマスのお話が登場します。日本とドイツでは、クリスマスの過ごし方はどのように異なるのでしょうか。 　 *** It's a Good Expression *** （今回の重要表現） Boy うわあ put on a party パーティを催す find out 突き止める、知る label （動詞・発音注意）ラベルを貼る ingredients 材料、食材 What else am I supposed to do? 他にどうしろというんだ。 go out with ...と遊びに行く（=hang out） *** Script *** Christmas German Style Situation: Peter and Yuka talk at a Christmas party. M: Boy, this sure is a nice party! W: Yeah, the International Office sure knows how to put on a great party for us! They even have German Christmas cookies over there! M: Ho ho! Really? Do they taste as good as in Germany? I wanna find out! W: Is there really a difference? M: For a lot of food here in Japan, I’ve been a little disappointed because it’s labelled "German." But then it doesn’t taste the same to me. Probably other ingredients are used. W: I see. Situation: A couple of days later, outside of Peter’s apartment. W: Hey, Peter, do you have any plans for Christmas? M: No, not yet. Maybe I'm going to a bar with some friends. W: With friends to a bar? Why’s that? M: Well, what else am I supposed to do? If I was in Germany, I’d be with my family. W: So, you celebrate Christmas with your family in Germany? M: Yeah. W: Wow. M: Um… you look surprised. W: In Japan we young adults DON’T spend Christmas with our families. M: College students don’t spend Christmas with their families? Then, WHO do you go out with on Christmas? (Noisy male friends suddenly arrive.) M: Oh, look! My friends are here! Hi Gabriel! Hi Hans! Let’s watch the football game on TV! W: Ah! Men! Bye-bye, Peter! (Written by Gabriel Germann)

Download MP3 Merry Christmas! 今年もクリスマスにまつわるエピソードでお楽しみください。今回はドイツのクリスマスのお話が登場します。日本とドイツでは、クリスマスの過ごし方はどのように異なるのでしょうか。 　 *** It's a Good Expression *** （今回の重要表現） Boy うわあ put on a party パーティを催す find out 突き止める、知る label （動詞・発音注意）ラベルを貼る ingredients 材料、食材 What else am I supposed to do? 他にどうしろというんだ。 go out with ...と遊びに行く（=hang out） *** Script *** Christmas German Style Situation: Peter and Yuka talk at a Christmas party. M: Boy, this sure is a nice party! W: Yeah, the International Office sure knows how to put on a great party for us! They even have German Christmas cookies over there! M: Ho ho! Really? Do they taste as good as in Germany? I wanna find out! W: Is there really a difference? M: For a lot of food here in Japan, I’ve been a little disappointed because it’s labelled "German." But then it doesn’t taste the same to me. Probably other ingredients are used. W: I see. Situation: A couple of days later, outside of Peter’s apartment. W: Hey, Peter, do you have any plans for Christmas? M: No, not yet. Maybe I'm going to a bar with some friends. W: With friends to a bar? Why’s that? M: Well, what else am I supposed to do? If I was in Germany, I’d be with my family. W: So, you celebrate Christmas with your family in Germany? M: Yeah. W: Wow. M: Um… you look surprised. W: In Japan we young adults DON’T spend Christmas with our families. M: College students don’t spend Christmas with their families? Then, WHO do you go out with on Christmas? (Noisy male friends suddenly arrive.) M: Oh, look! My friends are here! Hi Gabriel! Hi Hans! Let’s watch the football game on TV! W: Ah! Men! Bye-bye, Peter! (Written by Gabriel Germann)

Hello all! Can someone say 'two weeks in a row?!'...Okay nobody? Maybe I'm getting a little too hype about small victories. But it feels good to stay true to what I said last week. But on to the current episode. This week, we're talking JAPAN. A country and culture that has had a huge impact on my content and brand. How you ask? Well give the episode a listen and you'll find out! I think this one is long overdue, hope you all like it. Enjoy the show! Follow me on Instagram! @Mugen.ig Follow me on Twitter! @TalesOfMugen Songs: Dekobe - Makahiya 石凛 Rin Ishi - 遊び場 Kalaido - Hanging Lanterns Shirosky - Walking In The Rain

Welcome back or welcome for the first time to episode 12. In this episode we picked a few horror themed games for Halloween and immediately failed to get the podcast out anywhere near then. Oh well, who cares. We're going to talk about Little Nightmares, Slayaway Camp: Butcher's Cut, and Inside. To wrap it up I'm going to throw at you one of the heaviest bands I know to make up for not putting a band when it was my turn in Ep. 10. Intro Song "Out of Ashes" by Andy Rinaldi. Check out his work over at taskermorrissounds.com. Title art by Devious.Pixel send him some love over on Instagram. Sweet Jams: "Six's Theme Part II" "The Death Waltz" Both these come from the Little Nightmares OST. It's got quite a few other creepy and unnerving songs on it. "Welcome to Camp" "The Law" Both these come from the Slayaway Camp: Butcher's Cut OST. There is alot of random stuff on this OST. Even a few songs with vocals. I just don't like vocals behind us trying to talk. I think it would be distracting. "Shockwave" Now for Inside I only played this song because it had a specific sound effect we needed that we were talking about. And I even cut out the majority that played after the sound effect. It may seem weird but the OST for Inside is so ambient that I don't think it works hearing it outside of the game. Maybe I'm wrong but there it is. Podcast edited by me mostly. Jessica refused even after being struck a few times. Queries? Criticisms? 2smokingcontrollers@gmail.com Find us on Facebook and Instagram to keep us with our slow progress with the podcast. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/lock-stock-and-two-smoking-controllers/support

Bird Essay 10 October 2019\ I wrote a verse in this specifically for Brian. He shares way more on our podcast than I'm comfortable with so I'll share this about my buddy and coproducer Brian Lutz. He's been going through a country song of a stretch in his life. These words are specifically for him: "Inside your crumbled world know you're not alone / Outside the insular lonely people roam / dreamers and malcontents and rebels scared to win." Nothing ever works out according to plan. That's what ol' Lennon was saying in "Beautiful Boy:" "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." Initially this song grew out of a piano jam we did in Forgotten Sons in the 80s. C major. That's a dead give away. It was always in the Big Opera and then when we set about digitizing that motherfucker it wasn't. I tend to fall into the dark side of my personality and sometimes write overtly positive songs. Maybe as a self pep talk? Maybe I'm trying to talk my way into a good mood. Ugh. I don't know. I'm in the cavernous abyss right now that's for sure. THIS version of this song, you see, uh. Who cares. Whatever, right? Fuck. I had a lot of fun tossing around the word "ennui." I like how it sounds. I like that it's French. The Gauls and the Goths were epic awesomeness, am I right? Yo check out my keyboard wizardry on this'n. The Hammond B3 at the end, I couldn't do the right and left hand parts at the same time! Hah! I really really like C-major. It's jaunty. It's the opposite of Nigel Tufnel's the saddest of all keys. Here's some examples of the vibe of C major. "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and "The Ballad Of Curtis Lowe." You know what else is in C-major? "Imagine." "The Card Cheat" off of LONDON CALLING is C major. Shit, yo. I'm spinning muh goddamn wheels! Tell you what, friends, the gears are most definitely engaged. C and F. Love them. LOVE EM! I have existential angst at the moment. I have it to the point where I feel as if I don't deserve it. As if I haven't EARNED mine own angst! I'll tell you what, folks. I had the opportunity to work with a bunch of men and women from the post Gen X generations. Here's the reality, fellow middle age dorks and dorkettes. We fucked everything up good for today's young-ins. We've poisoned the land. We've destroyed the ecosystem. We've modified the earth so that we are no longer a part of it. I say it constantly, right? Team Thanos every day and twice on Sunday. Our party was way more intense than that of the Baby Boomers. They were naive little sissy-pants jag-offs. We knew full well that the heart that beats in the center of the party is dark. It has consequences (*PLUG* check out the song "Consequence" from TRAVELOGUE IV!). We were fucking and getting fucked up in college. Today's youths are assuming mountains of debt. A good trend I've seen is that the next ones ain't to keen on breeding. I love that. There are far too many human beings on Earth. I'll tell you why there's the greatest wealth disparity in the US since the 1920s. It all started with my homeboy Ronald Reagan saying "more government can't solve the problem. Government IS the problem." He was right. Governmental bureaucracy was bloated and self sustaining. It was an AI. Scaling back was the right thing to do. But now we need another course correction. The 1950s was a pretty good era economically. We ruled the world through normal traditional war ways and through culture. This was when it crystalized for me. It was the stimulus package passed by our gubmint in 2017. All the tax cuts for rich folk and for mega businesses are forever whereas the ones for working stiffs are temporary. It pains me to say this but the Democrats are the more fiscally responsible party. How the fuck did that happen? They try to at least pay for a portion of what their abdicating. Not the Republicans. Dammit. I was 100% down with the GOP's obsession with fiscal responsibility during 44's presidency. And then they passed that stupid fucking tax cut and exploded the deficit. There's ANOTHER way we're fucking the next generations. There you go, guys. Have fun cleaning up our shitstorm! We fucking suck.

Stories in this episode: Sarah longs for a new perspective after loss and finds it with a feisty group of octogenarians in LA; A kilt-wearing stranger shows up to Brian’s weekly game night and volunteers to take a road trip with him; Emily promises 99-year-old Mac she’ll get him to 100 and finds the best friend she was promised by God in the process. SHOW NOTES: To see pictures and videos from our storytellers this week, go here. TRANSCRIPT: KaRyn Lay: Welcome to "This Is the Gospel," an LDS Living podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith every day. I'm your host, KaRyn Lay, and I'm here with my friend and fellow producer Sarah Blake. Sarah: Hi, everybody.  KaRyn Lay: Sarah, why are we here together today?  Sarah: Because today's episode is about unexpected friendships. And we're talking about friendship and our friendship is something to celebrate. KaRyn Lay: It's totally something to celebrate! Sarah and I first met, actually, I don't remember the moment that we first met, do you? Sarah: No, me neither.  KaRyn Lay: I just feel like I've always known you. But I do know that we first met in a singles ward in Salt Lake City in our 20s when we were just doing the things that single people who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do in their 20s. So like, I'd see you at FHE and occasionally like at a "Munch and Mingle," if we felt like we had the energy to go to that and try to flirt with a boy, right? I feel like you and I just always had so much in common. So it was really easy for us to be friends.  Sarah: Yeah, really natural. We're readers, we're writers, we're prolific Goodwill shoppers. KaRyn Lay: I was always jealous of your red boots.  Sarah: Those were my best find ever.  KaRyn Lay: Yeah, that was a good find. So we've been thinking about friendships and how it's really easy to be friends with somebody who has a lot of things in common with you. And it's much harder to be friends with the people who seem different.  Sarah: Or maybe it's, maybe it's that it's harder to start those friendships, right? It can be unexpectedly easy, but you weren't looking for it and you didn't know how to start it.  KaRyn Lay: And I think Sarah, the reason that you're here, beyond just us celebrating our friendship, is that you have a story about a really unexpected friendship that you want to share with us, right? Sarah: Yeah, when we picked this topic, this story of my own immediately came to mind. Do you want me to tell it?  KaRyn Lay: Of course I want you to tell it. I love a good story.  Sarah: Okay. So when my husband Casey and I were first married, we lived in Los Angeles. And it was a very fun time. We were renovating this duplex we had bought, we lived pretty close to the beach, sometimes we saw movie stars. It was pretty idyllic in a lot of ways. But we had this little dark rain cloud in our life, which was infertility. We really wanted to start our family but we just didn't get pregnant, didn't get pregnant, then I had a miscarriage. And then we couldn't get pregnant and had another miscarriage. And it was a hard time for me and I wasn't talking to very many people about it. I just couldn't even bring myself to say the words of what I was struggling with. And I remember even a couple days after my second miscarriage, I went to babysit for my friend's kids, so she and her husband could go to the temple. And I really wanted to do that for my friend, I also thought it'd be good for me to get out of the house instead of laying around crying. So I went and her kids wanted to watch the Disney movie, "Tarzan." And that opening scene where the gorilla mom loses her baby, I mean, I just sat there crying and crying in the dark, trying to wipe away tears so her kids—my friend's kids—wouldn't see how sad I was. But I still didn't tell her even, like I didn't tell my friends at night when she got home what I was dealing with. I just couldn't talk about it. But I needed someone who understood. And I think heavenly father knew what I needed. So in our ward, there was this row of old ladies, what do you call a group of old ladies? A gaggle? A pew? They all took the back row in the chapel and everybody knew that was their place. And these women were in their 80s and 90s. They had all moved to LA in the 40s and 50s for their husbands to work for Howard Hughes Aircraft stuff. And then they'd all had a ton of kids and their kids are all grown and their husbands were all dead. And now they had each other in this awesome sisterhood that sat together. They were spunky, feisty, interesting women. And one day I was sitting next to one of them in Relief Society and she mentioned that they had formed a chapter of the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers. And I really identify with my own, like Utah pioneer ancestry. And so I said, that's super cool. And they invited me to come to a meeting. So I went to a meeting and I didn't know what to expect, but it was just all the ladies from the back row of the chapel. I don't know if they'd ever invited anybody young before or if anybody else had ever been interested, but they were really excited to have somebody new there. And somebody gave a presentation about a pioneer ancestor, and we all stood with our hand on our hearts and recited something and we sang a song and scheduled the next meeting. But then it got really fun when they broke out the deserts and just sat around talking. And I realized that as a young woman growing up, you don't very often get to see older women in their natural habitat, you know, just like letting loose and talking with their friends. And I know my mom had good friends and those friendships were important to her, but I never saw them quite like this, and my grandmother's, too. But what was amazing to me was these women sat and talked about their lives, and they were just reminiscing, but they were telling the stories of the worst things that had ever happened to them. And then they were laughing their heads off because like life had moved on and they saw it with this perspective that I think you can only get in your 80s. Like, "Remember the time when all our husbands got laid off at the same time and one of the husbands had to lay off half of them?" Or the time the kid jumped off the roof and broke his arms. Or, one of them had a disabled son and she spent literally decades fighting with doctors to keep him out of institutions. And another woman had this daughter who just did everything wrong that she could, like doing drugs and running away to follow a rock band and saying the most outrageous and rude things. And they would tell a story and then they would just like laugh until they cried, wiping the tears from their eyes and slapping their knees and stuff. And it was amazing to me.  And I didn't even realize quite how it was causing a shift in me. But I remember driving home from that meeting. And I don't think there's very many moments in life where you feel changed by just a few hours, but this was one of those for me, because I realized that I had been just, I felt surrounded by these walls of my doubt and my self-pity, my tragic sense of how hard my life was right now. And it was like all those walls had been pushed way back by the perspective of older women. Seeing it in their own lives really, truly, "Time heals all wounds," and "This too shall pass," and life will go on. I suddenly had a vision that there's a future me out there in her 80s, maybe she's surrounded by loving posterity or maybe she's not. But either way, she's okay. And like, it's going to be okay. This is just a moment, and life is still full of joy. And none of my younger friends could have taught me that. Anybody saying you know, "You're probably going to get pregnant soon, it's going to be fine." It wouldn't have done it for me, it wouldn't have been what I needed in the same way it was just rubbing shoulders with these women whose own life experience could show me truly it is going to be okay. KaRyn Lay: First of all, I adore the visual of you in your 30s, sitting in this room full of octogenarians, slapping your knees and laughing.  Sarah: I wish you could have met them. They were so great. KaRyn Lay: It sounds so great. And I love that that friendship was exactly what you needed at that exact moment. And the other friendships with people that you would have immediately been drawn to, maybe that had something more in common with you like age or stage of life, wasn't actually what you needed.  Sarah: I think that is probably true for a lot of hardship. Like when you're going through something, your usual friends might not be the ones you need the most.  KaRyn Lay: So how do you find these kinds of friendships? Like, what's the secret for opening yourself up to a kind of friendship that you wouldn't maybe naturally look out for?  Sarah: Well, I think a lot of it is just a gift of God sometimes, right? And being open to that. But I think in the stories in this episode, there's an element of risk. And on the other side of a little risk is the reward of a new friendship.  KaRyn Lay: So true, so true. And like you said, today we've got two more stories from people who took that risk, who opened themselves up and found friendship that absolutely surprised them in the best ways. Our first story comes from Brian, who was perfectly content and happy with the friends that he had when a kilt-wearing stranger offered to accompany him on a road trip. Here's Brian. Brian: So I guess it's kind of ironic that in a room that included dwarves and elves and ogres, that it would be the bald human that would have such a profound effect on my life.  Growing up, I was always a real introvert, I only had a couple of really close friends. And it stayed that way until I got home from my mission and started going to a young single adult ward. I started to become friends with a group of guys there and found out that they got together on a regular basis to play "Dungeons and Dragons." I grew up as a geek, I like superhero things, I like fantasy and all that kind of genres. But I had never played "Dungeons and Dragons." And I thought, well, this would be like a cool experience to go sit in and see what it's like. So I asked them once if I could come over and just watch and they said, "Sure." And they told me what time they were playing. The day that I went over, it turned out that one of the guys that was in the group at the time wasn't able to show up that day. And so they asked me, you know, "Do you want to play so and so's character?" And I remember saying, "I don't know what I'm doing this just literally, I'm just sitting down at this table for the first time ever." And they said, "Well, that's okay. You know, we'll show you what to play and don't worry." And now 26 plus years later, we're still playing. We've had different people come and go, but there was a core group of us that have stayed together all these years. When we started out, obviously, we're all single, We were all in this single adult ward. Now we're all married with children. We have one grandfather in that group and we still get together every other Monday night and play. And in fact, two of the guys that I play with were my best men at my wedding reception because I couldn't pick between them, we were that close. After we had been playing together probably 10 or 15 years, someone from our core group, Dave, brought a new friend that he had met to play. This new player looked very different than the rest of us. Let's just say he had a shaved head, earrings, rings on his fingers, I know that least one of them was made from a nail. Had either sandals or bare feet, I don't recall which, I would guess bare feet based on how well I know him now. Just really different than what the rest of look like. But I remember thinking, "Dave, what have you brought into our group?" Which, I look back on now, and I'm so embarrassed that I ever thought that, but I did. I was really protective of this group because it really was the first time I had a close group of friends, I mean, we did everything together. But I thought, okay, you know, let's invite him to play and, and he was good at playing, he had played before, so he fit right in that way. He took over someone's character, and he became part of the playing group, but he wasn't part of our group. And then something happened. For the job that I used to have, I traveled extensively by car. I would drive all over the western United States. So I'd spend a lot of time in the car, and I would always invite my buddies. And they would always say no, you know, they had jobs, so I understood that but it was always fun to ask them and see if they could go. And then one day, I said, "Hey, I've got a trip down to Vegas next week. Is anybody interested in going with me?" And Russ piped up and he said, "Yeah, I'll go with you!" And I remember thinking, "Oh, I, okay." I didn't expect it because, you know, we didn't do anything outside this group. But it would have been rude to say, you know, "No, I meant all the other guys, not you." So, well, you know, he said yes, I invited, he said yes and I always say I want someone to go with me so let's, okay. I drove down to Utah County and picked him up really, really early. And I think looking back that I was kind of glad that it was dark outside because it was almost a barrier because I was maybe a little uncomfortable. So we started talking very safe subjects, geeky subjects, you know. Can you name all seven members of the Justice League's original lineup? Can you name this? And what artists do you like? What's your favorite title? Just very safe subjects. We tried to figure out who among us was the bigger geek. And we decided that he ended up winning simply on the fact that his father-in-law's name is Bruce Wayne, which, obviously to any geek that that's a trump card that just can't be beat. So it was a good way to break the ice, you know, to stick to those safe subjects. We had a lot of driving ahead of us, obviously down to Vegas. And it was a week-long trip. So we were going to be spending a lot of time together. And then we kind of started branching into other subjects. I'm very much a creature of habit when I go on the road. I eat the same restaurants at the same place, eat, you know, the same thing, everything just like that. Even some hotels I'd stay in the same room. And he was very much against any type of chain. He was very much, let's look at that little hole in the wall diner over there. Or let's ask the person in the store, "Hey, where would you go to eat?" And so as he would do that, it was fun too because it was something new for me. It's like oh this is, you know, I would never do this. And I started to kind of come out of my shell not only around him but just in general, I think because it was new and it was fun. And he kind of taught me that a lot of times, those are the best places to go, you know, some of the best food you'll ever try. If you spend a week with someone, you're either going to come home, not speaking to them at all, or you're going to be a lot closer, and I realized that, hey, this guy's pretty cool. Over the next few years, we did travel a lot together. The shortest trip we took was a day trip and the longest trip he's been with me on was 17 days, where we went all over Texas, New Mexico, and Oklahoma. We ended up creating a world together because you really have a lot of time in the car. We're very different in our views on a lot of things. I'm very conservative in a lot of my views and he's very liberal. My music would be Billy Joel, Elton John, Michael Buble, and his Metallica and Flogging Molly and Dolly Parton. So we're very different in that way. But when we talk and we discuss these differences, there's never any animosity. We can discuss politics for instance, and not have any bad feelings towards one another. We're able to see the other person's views and there's never any bad feelings, which I think is a lesson to a lot of people. He really changed my life in a lot of ways. He's taught me not to pass by life, not to stay in that shell. He does wear kilts a lot on the road, which is a lot of fun because I'll walk in a store four or five seconds behind him, and I do it on purpose. And he knows I'm doing it on purpose. Because if I walk in behind him, especially in little small towns, that's the best because the looks he gets from the people that are in the stores are priceless. And I know in my head that they're doing the same thing in their own way that I did when Dave brought him into the group. You know, they're, they're judging him based on his external appearance. Like when I said, you know, "Dave, what have you brought into our group." As it turns out, what he brought into the group was a brother. He is one of the few people that when I talk to him on the phone, there's times at the end, when I will just say, "Hey, I love you, man." And he'll say it back. He is someone that I will call when I just need someone to talk to. He's always, he's a great listener, and he is very good at counseling. And I like the fact that he doesn't just agree with me and say, "Oh, you know, yeah, you're right of this," but he will point out, "Okay, how can you grow from this?" I think God puts people like that in our lives to teach us lessons. It would be easy to say that God put him there to teach me not to judge people. And that is an easy answer. And I think he did, I think he put him there to teach me that. But I also think he put him there to make me a better person in a lot of other ways. I think God knew that there were going to be times that I would need Russ. He was there for me during one of the lowest points in my life. I was battling—still battle—with depression. And I had gotten to the point where, as I would drive, there were times that I would think, "If I didn't turn this corner up here, it would look like an accident." And when I needed to talk to somebody, he was always there and didn't matter what time, and he would just listen and he would love unconditionally. And I don't want to downplay those other guys I play with because they are very much brothers to me. They showed up one night at my house at 11 o'clock at night, because they knew what I needed. So I don't want to downplay them at all. He's just become, he's become a brother. It makes no sense, it really doesn't because we are so different in so many ways. And maybe that's what makes it so fun is that it doesn't make sense that we should be friends. But I know that he was put there to teach me a lot of things and to be there, almost as a stand-in for my older brother. I'm the oldest but I mean, you know, my heavenly older brother to put his arm around me when I needed it. A scripture comes to mind when it says that "God looketh upon the heart." And I think that Russ is a great example of that because when you see him, you're going to make judgments based on the way he looks. But if you get past that Bulldog exterior to the puppy dog that's beneath, you see the way that Christ sees him.  I think that I hope that I'm a little more understanding now, a little more willing to get to know people underneath rather than just judge by that first four seconds of seeing them. And I'll be forever grateful for the bald human that entered the dungeon that day. KaRyn Lay: That was Brian. When I first heard the story on our pitch line, I was immediately drawn to it. Partially because I love a good story and Dungeons and Dragons was involved, but also because I have a few gamers in my family. And I know how close-knit and connected those 12-sided-die groups can be. So when I heard that Brian was talking about friendship, I wanted to hear about it even more. I love his willingness to admit that he was protective of that friend group when Russ first came into the circle. It kind of reminded me of that childhood feeling that we have sometimes when the new kid comes to school and you immediately are like, "No, they're not like us." Sometimes new friendships or the possibility of new friendships can feel like a threat to our system. But I love what Russ and Brian found out: Love is an infinite resource. There's room in our hearts for new friends, there's room there. And if we don't think that there's room there, God can help us to create that room. And letting new people into our lives is absolutely going to bring change in one way or another. Whether it invites us to try that new hole-in-the-wall local restaurant instead of the Olive Garden or letting someone see the hardest things in our hearts. It takes real courage and sometimes an act of God, like Sarah said, to get us to open up to the possibility of a new friend. But I really believe that on the other side of that is more love, more connection, and growth, which is exactly what our Father in heaven wants for each of us. Our last stories from Emily with a special appearance from her friend, Mac. It's a story of a friendship that might not have come without the intervention of a loving Heavenly Father. Here are Emily and Mac. Emily: For years, I felt like I never had friends and I felt really lonely. I think a lot of it is our perspective of how we think of ourselves and how we feel like we are around people. And for me, I just felt like I also was a person that didn't always connect with people on that deeper level. And so I love to be with people and serve them, but then all sudden, it's like when I'm not around people, I'll have that like, real sense of loneliness, kind of that bitterness. And it kind of bites, like sometimes it's really hard and sometimes tears are shed. I was really lonely and I had prayed for years to Heavenly Father, "Can I have friends in my life? Can I please have a friend?" And it's just really interesting how my friend came to me. Before I met Mac, I had just transitioned from living in Ecuador and serving in the orphanages. I was there for two months and it was an incredible experience. I loved it. It changed me. And then I moved back to the States and I was so lost. When I moved, I was actually going to live in a whole different city, and just circumstance after circumstance I ended up living in a different city than I had planned. And so I ended up in this apartment by myself. I was 24 at the time, single, and it was just like, like, what do I do with myself? I just feel so lost. I've always played the piano since I was eight years old. It's just been my thing my entire life. And so it's just always been my de-stressor. It's been my entire life, it's what I do. Growing up, my mom used to get so mad at me when it was time to get ready for school every morning, bless my mother's heart, she'd have to be like, "Emily stop playing the piano and please get ready for school." And I'd always be like, "Mom, I don't want to," Every day because it's just me, like the piano just feeds out of me, songs just constantly. When people would be having conversations like sometimes I just don't even talk because I have music going through my mind. And I don't really want to talk, I just want to play your piano that I see in the corner of your room. And no joke like, still to this day, like, I would rather go play your piano and talk to you while I'm playing the piano, but I don't want to just stand here and talk to you if there's a piano in the room. It's kind of like a kid who has a problem with candy-like, it's constant. So the piano, I feel like, allows me to express myself. It's almost even hard to explain, like, there's no words for it. And so it's one of those connections that we can have with people is music. And that's my latest connections. And maybe that's why I would rather talk to them as I'm playing the piano because it's like connecting our souls. I really think that's what happened with Mac and I. Heavenly Father knows me. I always have loved older people, but to get that deep level of a friendship he involved at starting around a piano, around music and so the day I met Mac, I had been praying for opportunities to play the piano and praying for opportunities that could bring me joy. I'm outside running, down the street, have music playing in my ear, do my normal run. And then all sudden, this prompting came into my mind, my nose tingled and it was like, "Go play the piano now." I'm like what? And I turned my head, and there's an assisted living center there. And I had never seen it and I'd ran that same street for three months. And I thought, "Oh, that's funny." Still, with the music playing in my ear, I just started running again. And the voice came again, loud, "Go and ask if you can play their piano now." Honestly, when that prompting came, and I heard that, like, other voice in my head, I just learned you don't even doubt them. Because why would I be thinking to go play a piano in the middle of a run? Like I wouldn't be. And so I just learned that like promptings come at the most interesting time, and I have to follow those. And so that prompting came and it just honestly didn't even surprise me. It just surprised me that it was right then and it said to do it now. Because I thought, "Well, I can go tomorrow or I can go another time." So I step into the assisted living center. and I asked the front desk like, "Hey, would you be open to if I come and play the piano for you sometime?"  And they were like, "Sure, why not right now?"  I'm like, " Wait, what? Right now?"  And she was like, "Yeah, sure."  So I like literally, still in my running clothes, go to where they have their piano, and I just start playing. And in walks this cute little old man with his walker, with his little pep step, walking towards the piano. And he's like, "Hey, when's the show start?"  I was like, "What show?" I was like, "I have no idea what you're talking about."  He's like, "No, when's the show start?"  I was like, "I'm just here to play the piano."  He goes, "Oh, that's great!" And so he sat down on the piano bench with me started talking.  Mac: I can't remember just how it was, but I was so impressed with Emily, not only a beautiful girl but a wonderful piano player. I was so impressed that you would take your time out to do something like that for an old duffer, to come and entertain us show people. Emily: My first thought was like, "Who is this funny old man?" He was so hilarious and he was just so with it. And I was like, he's really asking real questions. And so then I asked him, "I was like, how old are you?" And he was, like, "99 years old."  And I was like, wow. And then I was like, Wait a moment. You're 99. I asked him, "When do you turn 100 years old?"  And immediately, his demeanor changed. He got all depressed and all sudden he goes, "In six months." I was like, "Wait, what? That's so exciting. Like, you're going to be a century like no one ever lives to be a century." And he did not act excited at all. He didn't care. And it bothered me and I was like, that's it. This man has got to live to be 100 years old. Like no one can say that, right? It's so funny, I'm not a person that likes to make bets or deals, I never have been. Literally, I knew Mac for maybe 20 minutes. It just came out of my mouth and I was like, "I want to make you a deal. I'm going to keep you alive until you are 100 years old by coming to play the piano for you once a week." He laughed at me and he's like, "We'll see about that." And I was like, deal. Game on we're gonna keep you alive till 100 years old."  Mac: You say, "I'm gonna get you to 100." I just thought somebody has an interest in me. When I first came here, I thought well, I'm not gonna stay there any more than 30 days. They said, "Why?" I'm not old people like they are. They're just old people and I don't know, they looked like they were from the Valley of the Lost. People moving along without a purpose. Emily: Making this deal for Mac, just like sparked this thing in me that helped me to fill this purpose like, I got to keep this man alive. But I also felt like if I come and serve him, it will be a friend for him. And that it would be something he could look forward to. Just the conversation that we had that day on that piano bench, like, it just kept me like wanting to go talk to my friend. And so then I started going once a week, but quickly, that turned into the daily thing. And so I literally would go do my runs and then stop there on my way home and I'd go play some songs for him. But then it just evolved. He started inviting some of his friends, of the residents that live there. Pretty soon he'd say, "We need to go pick up so and so from their room." And by then, I also had made friends as well with residents that I would see in the hall as I was walking through and I would say "Hey, come we're gonna play some music."  Mac: Oh I, kind of, I looked forward to that every week. She had kind of a schedule. She'd come to my room and pick me up and she'd call me "Duffer," and I'd call her "Clapper." Called the Duffer and the Clapper. Emily: So then I'd go pick him up, but we definitely could not leave the room without his golf shoes on, insisted his hair was combed, and we had to grab his harmonica and then we were good to go. Mac: I guess I was so proud of how I looked. I always felt like I had to look my best.  Emily: And he is so funny, his personality that we'd be going to each room and then he'd start saying, "Watch out. We're getting the gangs out, the party's just getting started." So here's some that can hardly walk, so they're holding onto my arm, with their a little cane, we're going down the hall. Here's some that would be willing themselves, like so funny. And then we all meet at the piano, a gathering place.  Mac: She would stop by, pick up several of the people here and get with those, get around the piano, anxious to get right there by the piano and listen to her play. She was wonderful. And then with nearly all of us singing along with different songs, and Emily promoted that all alone and so she became a great fixture. People looked forward to that music. That's how I got to convince, well maybe I can do something with my harmonica. So I started playing a little bit. Emily: While doing this, things just changed inside of me. I was like, wow, I'm not so lonely anymore. The more I was around them, I felt like life's gonna be okay. It just was like one of those friendships that when you meet, and it just clicks, you're just like, "Whoa, like, where's this friend that I've been praying for for a long time?" Just one of those connections when you meet people you're like, "Well, that was definitely God putting them in my path." And my favorite thing of my friendship with Mac is that we both have a talent of playing music, and we love to share it with people. And the funny thing is, is I've played my whole life. Mac started when he was 10 years old, but he would only play the harmonica when he was using it to call the sheep in. And it wasn't until we met that both our talents blossomed, that we started playing for people, that his harmonica skills became incredible. He'd start with only one or two songs when I first knew him, and then he would be playing five or six by the time we were done with each dance party.  Mac: Oh, thank you. Anyone that can get music into their lives has a better chance of having a complete and happy life. Emily: So, about six months of building this friendship with Mac, I started feeling yucky. Like I was so tired all the time. And I noticed that I started feeling like I had the flu every single day, it was the weirdest thing. Because I'd wake up, go for a run and then I would just start to feel so yucky and my arms would burn, my hands would burn. And then I noticed my feet started burning. And I noticed when I was starting to run, I would start to trip because I couldn't feel my feet. My fingers would all sudden just have no feeling and I would be playing a song and they would ache and throb up so bad and the burning got so bad, that I'd have to stop in the middle of a song. And when I would go play for Mac, I'd sit there on the piano bench with him playing songs, have to pause, tears are streaming down my face, Mac's blind, so he couldn't even see and he didn't understand what was going on. It was really hard for me. Every doubt and fear ran through my mind as I was sitting there on a piano bench. Will I ever be able to play the piano like I used to? Will I ever have that back again? Well, my whole life be like this? Is this something that's been taken from me one of my favorite things that brings me the greatest joy in my life? God, did you take this from me? Will it ever come back? God when I'm here serving your children, where are you and why can't I continue to help them? I think that's when I had to realize too, that sometimes we can't serve in the way we want to, but oftentimes, it's always in the way we need to. And so some of those days, maybe those residents didn't need to hear as much music and they just needed friends. And so we would just start talking. Here they were sharing their stories with me of when you know, their spouse had passed away or an illness that happened to them and they didn't do it as in a rude, like "Get over it, Emily," or something like that. It was always such a teaching moment that I walked away just so inspired by their examples. When I realized that true friendships are when we open our hearts, and that we're not focused on ourselves, but that we share stories and things that we've learned, but it just brought such closeness and realness. And it wasn't just a service and happy friendship, and how are you doing today? And it was real. I mean, it was the deepest friendships I've ever had. And it just made me laugh because I'm like, how am I have more friends that are older, that are in their 80s or 90s than truly than my own age. But always, every time I left that building, I would leave a happier person than I was then when I walked in because they taught me such valuable lessons. I had finally gotten a diagnosis that I had Lymes disease. I had never told Mac, but he could tell just by my voice, or by how I gave him a hug, he could tell when days that I didn't feel good. And he started picking up on it and he would say, "Have you had a good day today?"  And I'd say, "Yes."  And he goes, "No, you haven't."  And I'd say, "Yeah, you can tell huh?"  And he goes, "You don't feel good today, do you?" And it really meant a lot that he was there as a friend and he would ask. But he knew that it took all that I could to get out of bed, to get him and those residents so that we could play. I mean, I was terrified. I'd lay in my bed when I was so sick. And think if I don't get up today, this man's gonna die. And I made him a deal to keep till 100. I have to go, I have to go get him. And I always pick myself up, get over there, drag myself over there and do all that I could.  Mac: I didn't realize I was doing any good. She always says I helped her as much as she helped me. I always felt our purpose in life was not what we can do ourselves. I wondered, maybe God should tell me what my purpose is. So I guess my purpose was to help Emily along and her purpose was to help me along. Emily: The more I got to know Mac, I learned that he had family that came to visit him every day. And so sometimes I'd wonder like, should I be continually coming to visit him every day? Does he even enjoy these visits? I really realized these visits meant more than anything. He was looking for friendship as well. He needed that. People need friends, we need each other, at any age. He wanted to make a difference, I wanted to make a difference. And when our friendships have the same goals that we want to do, it's amazing how God puts each of us in each other's path and that we were able to make that difference. Around the same time I was diagnosed with Lymes disease, Mac made it to 100. We made it to 100 years old, and I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe we had done it. Now he had definitely had to do all the breathing, but I was so relieved that we made it to 100 years old. I felt like I accomplished what I said I was going to do for him. And that I kept my end of the deal. His family through a huge party for him, lots of people came, we're all at the party mingling and Mac comes over to me and He says, "So, now what? You didn't promise me anything else." I didn't even know what to tell him. I was like, I'd only just made it a goal to keep them alive till 100 years old. That's all I felt. And now what? And yet, reaching 100 wasn't the end for us. In like a month, he'll be 103 and I will be 28 years old. He's also taken it upon himself to be my dating consultant. And it's not working out for me. So far, his success rate is zero. But I haven't given up on him yet. Mac: "I'm gonna get you over 100 years old." She mentioned that many times. And I said I'll make a promise. I'll do that if you find somebody to get married to." She said she'd do that, so I'm still plugging along, so she's got a lot of work to do. Emily: The other day I was telling him about my friend that's going to get engaged. And he goes, "You know, I can't keep living all these years just waiting for you." I said, "I'm trying" and he goes, "So am I." Never did I ever think I'd still be best friends and have a dating consultant who's 103 and is blind. Even now, to this day, Mac and I get asked to play the piano and his harmonica at funerals, and events. We actually go on tours. It's hilarious. And when we're playing at these funerals, Mac will lean over to me and say, "This is hilarious we're here playing for someone that's much younger than me. This isn't even my funeral." Mac: Emily supervises and we played at three different funerals. And I found that I've really got a purpose here. I feel closer to the Savior all the time I listen to Emily play because that melody comes through and puts meaning to life. Emily: Mac's amazing. He's my best friend. I still feel lonely at times and knowing that his time will come soon, there's always that sense of will I feel loneliness again? I question that. But I have such a greater peace now and trust that I know the Savior's there. Mac would always say that if you have a heartbeat, you have a purpose. And I realized through this whole experience, I wasn't focused on myself, I wasn't focused inward. I was focused on loving others, that they're here too, that they're lonely too. We need each other. We're not here to be alone. Like we're here to be together, we're here to be friends. We're not here to suffer life alone.  Mac: I guess the Lord doesn't want me to come back. He wants me to stay here to understand that we're here for a purpose. And until we go to the other side, our purpose is to try to make other people happy. Maybe I'm here to help Emily and she was here to help me. KaRyn Lay: That was Emily and her 103-year-old best friend, Mac. Well, almost 103. If you want to hear some of Mac and Emily's musical collaborations, we'll have a link to the album that they made together in our show notes. I promise you will want to hear Mac's harmonica stylings. I also wish you all could have been in that room to feel the adorable energy between Emily and Mac when they came in to record. I think energy is really the right word for it because what their friendship did is energized each of them for their unique challenges. For Mac, it was finding a reason to live again at 99 years old. And for Emily, it was finding a way to fight through her loneliness and a debilitating illness. And isn't that the thing about inspired friendships? However, they come to be, those friendships set off a chain reaction of discovery and mutual joy just as it did in their story. And that makes us better. It makes us better for everybody and it teaches us more about the love that our Father in heaven has for us. I do remember Sarah. I do remember how we met. Well, I don't remember how we met, but I do remember the circumstances in which our friendship came to be. And that is because I took a risk to move to Salt Lake City. I didn't have a job. When I first moved there, I had no job and no place to live. And I rolled up into Salt Lake and God kind of— I felt like God sort of put me into this, this avenues space like the avenues in Salt Lake. And so then we were in the same ward together. And do you remember what we used to joke about, that ward at that time, we called it the—  Sarah: The Island of Misfit Toys? KaRyn Lay: The Island of Misfit Toys, and X-Men school.  Sarah: Oh, totally! KaRyn Lay: Because we all felt like we were developing specific talents and gifts that God wanted us to use in our lives. And I think it's really interesting that he puts us where we need to be so that we'll meet the people who can change us and show us something different, something new about ourselves that we didn't know before. And you did that for me and I hope that our friendship never ends.  Sarah: Me too. KaRyn Lay: That's it for this episode of "This Is the Gospel." Thank you to Sarah and Brian and Emily and Mac for sharing their stories and their faith. And special thanks to Susan Bender, Mac's daughter, who helped us to get those fun recordings of her dad. We'll have the transcript of this episode as well as some fun pictures and links from the stories in our show notes at LDSliving.com/thisisthegospel. All you got to do is go and find this episode and click on it and right there you'll find all the show notes. So check it out. If you have a great story about your experience Living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we want to hear from you on our pitch line. Leave us a short three-minute story pitch at 515-519-6179. You can find out what themes we're working on right now by following us on Instagram and Facebook at @thisisthegospel_podcast. That's @thisisthegospel_podcast. If you loved this episode, will you please leave us a review on the Apple App or Bookshelf PLUS+ from Deseret Book? We love to hear your thoughts about individual episodes or the podcast as a whole. We read every single one.  This episode was produced by Sarah Blake with story producing from Katie Lambert and me, KaRyn Lay, With story editing by Danielle Wagner. It was scored, mixed and mastered by Mix At Six Studios with additional mixing from KC Blake. Our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. You can find past episodes of this podcast and other LDS Living podcasts, like the "All In" podcast at LDSliving.com/podcasts. Have a great week.

The journalism ball.  I have dropped it. 0:08 - WGA puts the kabash on the Videogame Writing Award for 2019 5:24 - Let's talk about this year's Kunkel Awards! (Better late then never, right?) 24:29 - Kamala Khan joins the Avengers in the upcoming Crystal Dynamics video game 35:37 - Monster Hunter World Iceborne crosses over with Resident Evil 2 If you missed Saturday’s live broadcast of Molehill Mountain, you can watch the video replay on YouTube. Alternatively, you can catch audio versions of the show on iTunes. Molehill Mountain streams live at 7p PST every Saturday night on RandomTower! Credits: Molehill Mountain is hosted by E. Zachary Knight and Andrew Eisen. The show is edited by Andrew Eisen. Music in the show includes “Albino” by Brian Boyko. It is in the public domain and free to use. Molehill Mountain logo by Scott Hepting. Chat Transcript: 6:58 PMpsychadelic snake​nice 7:06 PMpsychadelic snake​oh no 7:06 PMpsychadelic snake​cunkle awards? 7:06 PMpsychadelic snake​>journalism 7:07 PMpsychadelic snake​that's very lacking today 7:09 PMpsychadelic snake​oh I saw joker today, it was really good 7:11 PMpsychadelic snake​gaming journalists don't do a good job 7:12 PMpsychadelic snake​*flash backs to infamous cuphead video* 7:12 PMpsychadelic snake​Maybe I'm just a pessimist 7:14 PMpsychadelic snake​so like RPG maker? but better 7:14 PMpsychadelic snake​oh you mean like that 7:15 PMpsychadelic snake​imagine going bankrupt and finishing Minecraft story mode first 7:15 PMpsychadelic snake​that hurt 7:19 PMpsychadelic snake​he worked under you? 7:20 PMpsychadelic snake​oooh 7:24 PMpsychadelic snake​discord? 7:24 PMpsychadelic snake​maybe skype 7:25 PMmatthew wilson​honestly avangers still looks avrage at best, but glad they are adding the current ms marval 7:25 PMpsychadelic snake​depends on how the game is done 7:26 PMpsychadelic snake​I rather not have another deadpool game, but happy thoughts 7:27 PMpsychadelic snake​if I don't see gameplay i assume the worst 7:28 PMmatthew wilson​they would have been better going with a cartoony estectic of the ultamate alance games 7:28 PMmatthew wilson​its a live service game 7:29 PMpsychadelic snake​I like games where the story ends, but you can keep playing so you can see the effective you've had on the world 7:32 PMpsychadelic snake​I'm kinda wondering why they're doing a grim dark for the avenger game 7:33 PMpsychadelic snake​PLOT HOLES 7:34 PMpsychadelic snake​maybe they'll try to wave it off as the shockwave hit them 7:35 PMpsychadelic snake​shadow is tsushima, ghostwire and death stranding are my awaited games 7:35 PMpsychadelic snake​shadow of tsushima* 7:36 PMpsychadelic snake​AND FOR MONSTER HUNTER, I got my first MH game 7:36 PMpsychadelic snake​and holy shit its fun, I started my 3 * quests recently and fought a giant bear 7:37 PMpsychadelic snake​I have monster hunter generations ultimate 7:37 PMpsychadelic snake​yeah, it grabbed one of my cats and just tossed him across the map 7:37 PMScottyJayMan​That’s Winnie the Pooh 7:37 PMScottyJayMan​He likes honey 7:38 PMpsychadelic snake​the one thing ive fallen in love with on MH are the palicos, I love those little cats 7:39 PMpsychadelic snake​my palicos have these little skirts, they wear plague doctor masks ans have gypceros rifles 7:40 PMpsychadelic snake​they look cute, and they kick major ass 7:42 PMpsychadelic snake​I use sword and shield, I upgraded my first weapon today and it shreds through monsters 7:43 PMpsychadelic snake​I checked the downloadable content for generations on my 3ds. 7:43 PMpsychadelic snake​there was a persona 5 palico, and that was just great 7:46 PMpsychadelic snake​the video audio over takes you 7:48 PMpsychadelic snake​it did, we just couldn't hear you very well 7:48 PMaddictedtochaos​Hello 7:49 PMpsychadelic snake​hey chaos, we talking MH

Conflict in relationship is often viewed as a bad thing. It’s uncomfortable. It’s tense. It makes us feel bad, and often makes our partners feel bad too. But what if you’re missing out on an opportunity? Like two tectonic plates rubbing against each other, two people butting heads in relationship might be just the moment where something new forms within that relationship. And within you. That’s the view of this week’s guest, Viola Neufeld. She’s a coach, educator, therapist and facilitator, and she works to help those stuck in conflict to work through their difficult conversations to a place of profound inner transformation. Viola is also the author of “Grateful For The Fight: Using inner conflict to transform yourself and your relationships.” Her motto? “Don’t waste your conflict.” And today you’ll get a taste of how you can turn your conflicts into building and rebuilding moments within relationship.  Sponsors: Beautiful jewelry, exquisite craftsmanship, sustainable sources, and affordable prices. Get $75 OFF your purchase at hellonoemie.com when you use the coupon code "ALIVE". With free overnight shipping and free returns, you can see something online today, and try it on tomorrow risk free. Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Our final sponsor today is Audible. Audible has the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet and now, with Audible Originals, the selection has gotten even better with custom content made for members. As a special offer, Audible wants to give you a free 30-day trial - which includes 1 free audiobook and 2 free Audible originals. Go to Audible.com/relationship or text RELATIONSHIP to 500500 to get started. Resources: Visit Vi Neufeld’s website to get her “enhancing relationship vitality” inventory. Read Vi’s book, Grateful for the Fight. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/conflict to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Jeff Brown. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. We've talked a lot on the show about how to communicate. And we've dipped our toes into the water of how to have conflict in a productive way with your partner. But deep down I don't know about you, but I've always harbored this sense that conflict is best avoided or dealt with as quickly as possible. And yet despite that deep down held belief something in me knew that it wasn't quite right. It wasn't quite serving me. And I've had various attempts to put my finger on the reason why. And then good fortune brought today's guest my way. Her name is Viola Neufeld and she is the author of "Grateful for the Fight: Using Inner Conflict to Transform Yourself and Your Relationships." Her book is truly eye opening, in terms of helping you see how the conflicts that you have in your outer world, the conflicts with your partner, with your family, with your co-workers, or your boss, how all of those conflicts help point to the ways that you can grow within you, and transform your relationships. So it's a very powerful generative way of looking at conflict that almost makes you welcome the chance to have conflict with someone else because you're gonna be holding it in a completely different way. If you are interested in downloading a transcript for today's episode you can visit NeilSattin.com/conflict, because that's what we're gonna be talking about today. Or as always you can text the word "passion" to the number 3-3-4-4-4 and follow the instructions Vi Neufeld. Thank you so much for being here with me today on Relationship Alive.  Viola Neufeld: I'm so happy to be here and I really love the name of our podcast Relationship Alive, because that's what this whole thing is about. It's about, what do you need to do to keep relationships alive over a very lengthy period of time and I know, you know, you were talking about how our natural tendency is to want to avoid conflict and you know that's just makes all the sense in the world because think about each time you enter conflict. It's like you're on this teeter totter and you don't know which way it's going to go. Is it just going to keep getting worse? Or is there a chance that this time you're going to turn around and do it differently and do it better? But we most of us have such a track record already with things going badly, that we're frightened of starting it again, because we know what the chances are we're realistic about the opponent that we have and our opponent gives us a real run for our money because they're able to find those places within where we question yourself. You know I mean it's funny. We often say to our partner you know, "you're pushing my buttons," as though they shouldn't. But interestingly enough it's when they push our buttons that they take us right to that part of ourselves where we find that really restless part. And of course it makes us feel terrible. We don't want to stay there, because we're uncomfortable there already. And yet if we continue to avoid it then it just remains there in a chronic state for many, many years. And we keep having fights over and over. Just on a little bit of a different stage. But the underlying fight is actually very much the same.  Neil Sattin: Right. You talk about it basically being this cycle where each of you is poking at the others sore spots and that there's some way that we magically arrive at this dynamic in, in partnership around those perpetual fights where what they point to it hits us in our in our weakest most vulnerable places and then we in the way that we respond to them you call that "your M.O.," it does the exact same thing for them. And so it creates this vicious cycle that just gets worse and worse or never gets any better.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah, I don't know I was thinking about this yesterday I was thinking about the whole concept of chemistry and you know how we always talk about we, what is love and we have to have this, uh, thing that happens between us. They activate something inside us. And make us come alive. But then what I was really thinking about is like what is the chemistry. The very thing that draws you together. That gravitational pull often has something that also creates conflict between us.  I mean we love somebody because they activate that part of us that somebody else doesn't. And it gets us really, really excited but it also makes us just wild because we don't know what to do and we end up trying to sort through, while we're in the middle of it, this is where it gets really confusing what's your stuff and what's my stuff. But, Neil let me go back to that cycle that you were referring to because how I even came up with that and how I even started looking at things in relation to the book and writing things up was, at one point I had like about twenty 23....nah, it was even more than that. At least 30 different files that I had across my dining room table and I thought what are the similarities here? When do people get into such entanglements with each other that they just can't get out and are there some similarities? What are those similarities where people get stuck and stay stuck for years.  And then that's when I started when I came up with that cycle, and you realized that somebody in terms of what they say or what they do, maybe, they're critical maybe they're passive maybe they're withdrawn, but whatever it is they do, make you go back to the place where you question yourself. "Maybe I'm not enough. Or maybe I'm too controlling. Or maybe I'm too impatient or..." Whatever it is that either they're withdrawing or their attack makes you question yourself and and doubt yourself at very significant levels in terms of who you are as a person. Then when you come out, so you come back out fighting, and whatever it is you do makes the other person now question themselves. And face the part of themselves that they don't want. That unwanted self. And it's looking at how we feed that cycle and keep that cycle going, that I was really intrigued by and wondering how do people get out of that cycle. Because I think that so many of us live with more pain in life than we need to. Like if we could figure this out sooner and face the part of ourselves that causes such discomfort and we'll know, we'll recognize that part because it's always the part that makes us come out fighting. We have to defend ourselves. We have to protect ourselves because we think the other person said something that makes us look like an idiot or that we're unreliable or that we're not a contributor. All the things we don't want to be and that's when we come out fighting. And yet the interesting thing is that really the strange way out of that, is to face the very thing that you don't want to be like for me for a long time. One of the things I had to face was, 'I'm not enough,' and I keep thinking "No, I am enough." Well this is where the power of positive thinking doesn't always work because it can't wipe out truth. And so it's like you almost have to do a back and forth and go, "Where I'm not... Where am I enough and where am I not enough?" Because there are places where I'm not enough and what am I going to do about that. So then the hope lies in kind of finding a bit of a manageable change program. And if I can do more today than I did yesterday or feel better today about myself than I did yesterday, because of what I'm doing differently then that's already growth. I mean it's one of the things I absolutely love about conflict. I never liked to be in the midst of conflict. There's nothing easy about it. But if you can surrender to it and learn what you can then we learn so much more about ourselves. I think that we are all less self-aware than we really think we are. This is a wonderful way of getting to know who you are and who the other person is.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. There's there's so much here that I want to unpack. And I love how rich your book is with like really taking apart each of the dynamics that, that are at work there in conflict and as, um, as I was wrestling with this question of, "OK what is the truth about those sore spots in me?" You know when I look at... You know something I mentioned frequently on the podcast is how I'm maybe not the cleanest person. So what is the truth around when when someone approaches me, or when Chloe my partner approaches me and says like, you know, "This place is a disaster like you have to do something." And for me like the natural tendency being you know all these things that I saw spelled out in your book like I would get defensive or I'd have I just have excuses maybe I wasn't getting defensive, but I'd be like you know I was really busy recording that episode of the podcast and I didn't get that chance to do the dishes like I said I was going to. And then there's that uncomfortable place of recognizing, "OK there is some truth here. And one of the questions that comes up for me is how you arrive at the balance of when it when it's actually healthy for you to look at, let's say a criticism from your partner and to not like focus on the fact that they criticized you and they could have said it better, but just to say like alright, I'm going to take a step back and see what's true here. What's the balance between doing that, in a way that's healthy, and then it becoming its own negative cycle and your relationship where you just get victimized by a partner who isn't doing their part to shift? Viola Neufeld: Yeah. That's a really good question because you know I think it's almost like the sequence that's the most important. The natural tendency is to go back and start fighting immediately or protecting and defending self. Except that if you continue to do that it gets you nowhere.  Okay. So the first step is always going in and looking at what did they say about me? So that's true. Maybe I, you know I am messy or I am a control freak, or I'm a clean freak, or whatever it is. Whatever they have said about you, the first step, I mean this is a very courageous step right because you have to go inside and you go. How much of that is true. And once you start to look at that then you're no longer fighting or like pushing it away because you've actually brought it close. And I don't ever want to minimize the difficulty of this because the same way as a child balances down on heat and pulls their hand away we do the same thing with emotional responses. When something is uncomfortable we want to balance away but this is what is required is to actually stay there longer and go, "Is this true about me? Yeah you know what sometimes I am this way," or "Sometimes I'm not this way." So you're going back, you have to do a bit of an assessment, all along recognizing that you don't see everything about yourself, the other person is actually telling you something about how you are impacting them. And we're not always aware of our full impact on the other. But then after you've gone in I think that it's important to go up and you from a bird's eye view, you look down, and you go wait a minute what do I know about the way that the two of us interact? What do I know about when my partner is feeling uncomfortable, what do they do? And if they get to a place where they're blaming and I'm now feeling like a victim and this is I recognize this. This is, I easily fall into a victim. My partner usually blames that I go, Wait a minute what I've already looked at what's going on inside of me and what I need to do differently but now I'm also from the bird's eye view from way up top I'm looking down and going: I see this pattern between us and I know that my partner is doing that out of their own discomfort then because you're not being just reactive you are much more equipped to stand up and say, you know what you're going into a blamer, and you're doing the very same thing again, you're wanting to make it look like it's my fault and you're so, so it's a matter then of holding onto yourself and you are not as reactive. So you have a clearer mind and you can see what the pattern is between the two of you and begin to shift your pattern.  Neil Sattin: Right. I loved in one of the chapters where you were talking about ways to shift the interactions like once you've done the inner work and I want to spend of course a little bit more time on that process of of the inner diagnosis. But you were talking about like once you've done that work and then you face into a conflict with your partner or anyone, really, you might ask a question like, Are you... it seems like you're trying to blame me right now are you, is that true? Are you trying to blame me right now for what's going on? And how asking the question invites them to take a deeper look at what they're doing and they may say they may say, Yes. You know they may be like, "That's exactly what I'm doing because this is your fault." Or they may say, "Well I'm not trying to blame you. I'm trying to just show you the impact of..." And you get further than you would get if you were just like, you know, stop blaming me and you're always blaming me. And then you're off to the races with your typical relationship pattern or conflict pattern.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah, see, I love that because once you have looked at yourself and you've really seen it, when you go out now, because I think there's three steps you go in, you go up, and then you go out. When you go out you grow up very differently. So, my husband and I, we had this cycle that went on for many, many years and and it would be that I would end up feeling like I was, you know, how did I have to raise another issue? I'm a malcontent. I'm a flake for what I'm saying. And then what I noticed and I would go into a blamer, because I didn't want to be that person but once I got to see that it when I experienced his criticism I, would go to that very same place. It kind of just made me chuckle because I go, "Wait a minute. I'm here at the same place. And yes I realize that sometimes I caused trouble but I also don't want to be the person who sees trouble and doesn't do anything about it." And so then I was equipped to just stand there and go, "No no. We do have an issue with this. But I gotta find a way of doing this and be lovable at the same time." So going inside what it helps you do is, it equips you and you feel more confident to stand on your own. To speak from your truth. And the fight changes because it's not like you're just defending yourself. You're actually talking about what goes on between the two of you and what you'd have to do to change that pattern so that it becomes a healthier pattern.  Neil Sattin: Yeah let's go up even further for a minute and talk about differentiation, and the reason why conflict is so crucial for true intimacy.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah. Differentiation. I mean it sounds like a big concept but, but it's so it's what you have to do in conflict all the time, is that... And conflict takes you to a place where you have to be willing to stand on your own and for a little bit. I mean it's almost like you disconnect with that other person, because you're so connected with who you are, what's important to you, and then you also have to hold the other at the same time. So it's being detached and involved. Standing alone and standing together. Lot of people get that part confusing because they think that you know they'll say, many couples will come in and one person will say, "No, I have to leave this marriage because I can't be myself." Well, if you have to leave a marriage to be yourself. That's not differentiation. It's individuation. That's about you being able to hold on to yourself. Differentiation is much more difficult because how do you end up holding on to yourself, and being a full self when you're connected to the other who is different than you, who thinks differently who wants different things. And that can be a big challenge. But ultimately I think it's only when we bring our full selves to the marriage, and freely being who we are even when the other person doesn't get who we are, that's the best chance that we've got of having real intimacy and vitality. I think way too many people give up intimacy because intimacy is hard. Intimacy means that you have to be able to state what do you want. What's important to you. What you value even when you think that the other person doesn't get it. So one of the ways that I've described it over the years is that I think one of the hazards of a long term relationship is a, is a shrinking pie. And initially you came together and the two of you were you flowed freely and you were all you brought all of which you were what you are. And so when you bring the full pie it just feels really intoxicating because you're free to be yourself the other person is free to be yourself. You don't have the baggage. But then what happens over the years is that let's say, there's something that's really important to you. Maybe it's something that you value. Maybe it's it's what you want sexually or who you are spiritually or you know what you're looking for,  you need emotionally. And let's say the other person isn't there doesn't meet your needs and so, or even they think you're less than for some reason because you're too emotional or not emotional enough or whatever. And so slowly we start pulling back pieces of the pie and we no longer bring them to the relationship. And if we don't do that sure we've got less conflict. But you know what: we have a whole lot less vitality, a whole lot less intimacy. So the challenge is even when you don't we don't think the same. I got to tell you this is who I am. And remember that other person fell in love with you in the first place because you so freely flowed with of everything that you were. But just now you've got some challenges.  Neil Sattin: Yeah so the idea is that through this process you get to know yourself more. You get to grow yourself more. And then you get to bring that back to the conflict in a way that really it's like having the same conflict, but from a completely different place. So it's it's not gonna be the same conflict at least on some level.  Viola Neufeld: Neil, and that's true because you went once you've done all this inside work you go, and as soon as you get back out there with the same person you go, "Wow this is the same stuff." But then you notice then it actually feels so differently when you're in it because you're not being triggered. So the same conflict. But now you're responding differently within it which means that nothing can be exactly the same. You know how they tell you you can never change the other person and there's a part of that that's true but it really isn't the whole truth. You know because how do we change the other person we change the other person by changing ourselves. If I change my pattern my husband could no longer do the same thing and that's the way it is in all relationships. And therein lies a huge amount of hope.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. In fact I just released a communication course that is all focused on the things that one person can do, like, basically all the places where we alone have influence when we're communicating with another person, since that's really the only thing we can change in effect.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah. And also because like I think of, I don't know if you can visualize steps, you know, like, let's say you you enter at one level, but there was an action that came before. There's always an action that comes after. So think about how you change things. Because if you respond differently then the other responds differently to you as well and you get out of the vicious cycle and into a more virtuous cycle. And the power lies in one.  Neil Sattin: Right. Right. I am I'm getting this image in my mind of you know someone kind of going to battle and over and over again, with the same opponent, the same foe and they have, I mean let's just use Achilles right. So that we'll take a myth. So this dude has a weakness in his heel, it's the only place that he can be killed, because that was where you know he was held when he was dipped into the pool of immortality or whatever it was. And it's like, imagine him going into battle again and again and he's like fighting and all doing well. And then what do you know, like the person like, pinches his heel and he's like down on the ground again. And thankfully the person isn't actually trying to kill him. But no matter what, there he is helpless down on the ground and it's like if all he focuses on is like, "How do I keep people away from my heel?" Then the heel is always going to be there as a weakness. And everyone's going to keep going for it. Whereas if he gets to know that spot intimately well and you know, I'm talking about Achilles, but it could easily be "Achillia” - you know some women as well. You know like, then once they realize like oh this is my weakness and they really get to know it intimately. And then when, the other person goes for it, they actually have a way of responding that they never had before. That's part of what changes the whole dynamic. So, I'm wondering if you can talk for a moment about that process of going in and and I love the way in your book you have these great questions that help you kind of peel away your self delusions and denial in a way that's not destructive. You know that's constructive. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that process of you know, asking yourself maybe you've asked yourself what's true about this which is what you offered earlier. And then what's the next step? Like where do you go when you when you realize like well you know what, it's true that I don't prioritize the dishes and that is just true about me or whatever it is.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah. You know to even to go one step further back, because it's understanding. You know, I often think of that part of us that we don't like the unwanted self. I often think of that more and I relate to it as I would to a little child or to me as a little child because we all make sense. And that part of us that still needs healing was wounded somewhere along the line. And what I actually love about conflict is that conflict gives us a method to heal those parts that are the most sensitive. So so when we come to the self to the unwanted self in that way, and we warmly try to understand where the hurts lie, where the woundedness first started to show up, then it's a way of kind of... I don't know... embracing it really it really is... I don't know taking it on your lap and now you're not, you're not harsh with it which means you're also not unrealistic in what you're expecting of it.  So I understand that, "OK. Why is cleanliness not important to me? Or why is uber cleanliness important to me?" For instance. And I come to understand things that have happened in my life that have made me come to that conclusion. And the thing is that many times what worked earlier in life doesn't necessarily work anymore. So taking that cleanliness thing you know, before it was not a problem there are many other things that were more important. However if it becomes a problem, with your spouse, then yeah. Then it's something that you start looking at and you go, "Well, maybe now I would actually feel better if I had things a little more cleaned up or if I contributed more by getting the dishes done or any of those things. So. So, it's a matter of really first warming up to the unwanted self because you understand what role it played or how it came to be. And in facing that there is some healing and there is some freeing going forward.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. And I'm wondering when you look at yourself in that way like, what I'm hearing are these questions that help you get the underlying motivation. So if what you're looking at is a specific behavior that you do or don't do, what the motivations are beneath that to help you get more clarity on what, what's really driving the way that you act. Am I getting you? Viola Neufeld: Yes for sure. Because we always have... And making that connection is sometimes difficult. Because we have these behaviors that we do. But then you have to kind of go underneath and go, "Why is that important?" Now, the why question is always a bit dangerous right because it can take you into rationalization which is not where we're going. It's more of a question of what? What is it that's actually driving that. So...  Neil Sattin: Yeah. And I'm thinking about your chapter on I think you call it "self tripping." Maybe you can describe what that is before I say what I'm gonna say. So what's self tripping?  Viola Neufeld: "Self tripping" is when you keep doing something that you know isn't getting you where you want to go and yet you can't leave. You can't let it go. So, in the book it was Nadia and her negativity. And so she recognizes that even though she doesn't like her negativity, that it also plays an important role in her life. It's where she feels like she makes a valuable contribution. It's part of her sense of identity. She thinks that people who just are always happy are people who just skate through life and don't have enough grit to face reality as it is. And it's so become woven into her sense of who she is that if she if she didn't be negative some of the time or you know bring out the umbrella that she wouldn't even know who she was anymore.  Neil Sattin: Right.  Viola Neufeld: Cuz of the roles. It was a role that she played growing up in her family and it's how others have come to know her.  Neil Sattin: Right. So if it's okay, I'm just gonna go through these questions that you ask.  Viola Neufeld: Sure. Yeah.  Neil Sattin: So just to give you listening a flavor for this kind of inquiry. So, you identified the behavior then you might ask yourself why do you dislike this behavior? Because after all we're talking about the unwanted self, like this is a part of us that we don't necessarily feel good about. But we've come to accept it as just maybe just the way we are. Or just the way we're going to be. We haven't figured out a way out of it. What do you like about this behavior? And why are you attached to it? If you tried to change it what would you lose? Or how would the change destabilise you internally or destabilise your relationship externally? And how is it working for you to repeat this pattern over and over again? Is there anything else that holds it in place. So, you're really able to to look at it like almost a scientist would or at least an observer from another planet, who's really trying to get more familiar with what's, what's going on here? And do you find that that process of creating that insight in itself is what generates change? Or are there other things that you think are required for people? Viola Neufeld: Well for sure what it does, like, it's the second step right? It's of going up and looking at it. So what it does is, you see the patterns, it loosens it inside and then I think going out is actually that you have to end up implementing that and realize how different it feels, and actually be surprised by how good it feels. And it doesn't mean, and like Nadia for instance might never give up all her negativity but she might be thinking differently about how often she's going to use it or whether it's going to be a comfortable blanket. She's going to recognize when she's using it illegitimately and she'll open up options. That's the whole beautiful thing about looking at, or engaging conflict differently is that you recognize that you have a whole lot more options than you believed you had earlier.  Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. It really frees you up in that way. And I'm just thinking about how once you're in that place with a new like trying something new on, you talk about not necessarily going for the big shift. "Well, I'm just gonna be positive all the time." Like, that's not gonna be Nadia's approach, right? Viola Neufeld: No, no, no. I mean that has to be, it has to be, little, little steps. And I think you always measured today compared to yesterday. Are you happier with who you are today than yesterday? Oftentimes when I work with couples and I usually take the last 10 minutes to work on what kind of homework do they want to do and it's about together we figure out the homework, or they figure out the homework on their own, but oftentimes after a session people will be pretty motivated and they'll go, "Oh, I'm going to do this, this, this, and this." And I'm like: "How about we think about one thing you're going to do? So that you can be convinced, so that you know that you are going to actually succeed rather than setting yourself up for failure?" Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking now of that way of reflecting on changes in conflict with another person that you mentioned, where you might even say it's like in Nadia's case like, "Wow,, when's the last I was just positive, like when's the last time I was positive in the middle of a conflict that we were having?" As a way of helping your partner see that you are trying to make shifts in the dynamic. When you when you are trying to make those shifts, what are, what are the common obstacles that you find when someone brings kind of a renewed sense of who they are? They've gone, they've done the deep dive. They've gone up, they've gotten some perspective. They really want to shift this pattern for themselves and for the way that they have conflict and then, let's talk about kind of taking it into the arena with their with their partner? And how do you do that in a way that's most likely to be generative? And how would you know? Because we're talking about stepping into conflict which by its nature is uncomfortable.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah, yeah. You know what I think, for one, being really realistic about change and how it happens. And know that the old is like a magnet and it just sucks you back, so quickly, and so powerfully and I think the important thing is not to get down on ourselves when that happens just to kind of look and kind of chuckle a little bit, and go, "Oh, my goodness, it's happening. The same thing still has some power." But even the fact that you can go up and recognize it, that means you're not functioning totally from your alligator brain, your amygdala, you're actually operating. You've invited your neocortex in and you're recognizing it even if you catch it after the fact and you go, "You know what, I just did the same thing again." But that's more than you were doing previously, because previously you didn't even see it. So kudos to you. And then the next time when it happens you'll probably see it while you're in the middle of it, and go, "OK, just wait a minute. I got to do something differently."  And when sometimes, when people get lost I'll say to them just do something which is 180 degrees from what you normally do and see how different, it feels and see what the impact is. Because it's all about experimenting and then recognizing that the person who got to you before, when you are making changes, whether it's your spouse, whether it's a colleague at work. If you make a change know that the other person is going to continue to do more of what they did before. So you're actually going to up the ante. Be prepared for that. Not because they're wanting you to still do what you did before, but just because that's what they know. And so your commitment is to yourself, more than to the other person to stay the course. Just focus on who do I want to be so that I can sleep comfortably in my own skin. And what is another good thing is that life keeps giving us one opportunity after another. If we miss this one there's another one right around the corner. And again just keep practicing on being the person we want to be.  Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. I like that image of your two brains learning how to work together because we have spoken a lot on the show about your limbic brain taking your neocortex off line basically for in favor of fight or flight. And so bringing your attunement, like your attunement within, to a conflict, that allows you to to bring them both online at the same time and to recognize your boundaries to recognize where you truly aren't safe vs. the illusion of not being safe which is often what your amygdala is responding to, right?  Viola Neufeld: Yeah. And that's what I love is because when you invite your brain back in, you can see that some of the things, cause conflict is all about your threats center going wild. And yet, when you bring your neocortex in then you can actually look at those fears and go, "Ok, they were real at one point. Are they still real? You know? I thought I couldn't do this on my own. And back then I couldn't. But can I do it now? Have I developed further? Or, I thought that you know I was not enough? Or, I thought that I spoke way too much. Do I still do that? I thought I was a drama queen. Am I still that or have I shifted? I thought people would reject me. But is that true?" So yeah it's always a question of checking where you are now compared to where you were then. And the many of the fears that were there don't need to be there any longer.  Neil Sattin: Let's talk for a minute too about how we might... Because I agree with you that so often we we start changing and the whole thing shifts. But are there ways that you find with your clients that are particularly effective for inviting your partner to notice, along, apart from what I mentioned earlier, to notice like the dance is shifting here. Or, hey, like this is this is me stating my truth and you can make a choice about that but I'm really clear about what I believe in this moment or who I am in this moment. What are some ways to help invite your partner to change their steps in the dance? And maybe the last part of that question, is how would someone recognize if that wasn't going to happen and whether or not that's truly, you know, you talk a little bit about the times when it's actually healthy to disengage.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah. Because you know I mean here's the sobering thing, is that we only have in our life what we tolerate. And so at a certain point it is that we go: This is who I am or I want to be sexually active, and that's really important to be in an intimate relationship. And if you're not there if that's not what you want, we're in real difficulty and I don't know what to do. Or let's say, "I want to be in relationship with somebody when I know that I have reason to trust them and I can believe them. And you have shown me on numerous occasions that I don't have evidence to trust you. And we are in a situation that I don't know if we can continue to go forward because this is what I need in my life." See, then you go back to differentiation where you really hold your own and you go. This is what I need from a partner. And if you're not that person, then I don't know where we're going to be in the future. So then there are other ones where, let's say you know, you know that the other person continues, regardless of how many times you say what's important to you and what really matters, it actually seems like the other person, if they really if that really doesn't matter to them then you are in a situation where you have to go, "OK. Am I going to continue on with this person or am I not?" Because you can't continue... Or let's say somebody continues to be hurtful and harmful in their actions towards you. And regardless of what you said they don't make the changes. Well then the writing is on the wall as to your future. You have to make decisions for your own safekeeping and for your own health. Going forward.  Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I think one place where that can get tricky is: I think we can be too quick maybe to make that decision, if we're in pain and that's the interesting thing about what we're talking about. Is like just because you're having conflict and uncomfortable that that isn't necessarily a sign that this isn't a healthy environment for you to be in. It may be that there's more healing for you to do or more growing for you to do. And I think that can be tricky to know, like, actually this isn't about me growing or healing something this is just about kind of a core place where I stand.  Viola Neufeld: Yeah, I mean, that's where it can get confusing for people to know whether it's just that it's theirs or if it has to do with the other person. I lost it there when I was going to say you and I'm sorry. Neil Sattin: That's OK. And I'm wondering if you have any hints for how someone can do that diagnosis about like have they gone deep enough in terms of their own inner work? Viola Neufeld: Yeah. So Neil I know what it was I was going to say because, what's the reason for moving on? So if you have not looked at your own stuff and you just think it's the other person then maybe moving out of the relationship is premature. If however you've actually looked at your part of the problem, your contribution, and still you're not getting from your partner what you need, then that's a different thing because you're not just leaving because of hurt and because of self blindness. You actually see it. You're doing the work. But the other person is not in a place where they're wanting to see more of themselves. And then maybe it points to a different future, but it's why are you leaving? Have you really seen what you need to see about yourself? Because then you can make a clear decision.  Neil Sattin: Right. I love what you just said how crucial it is to identify your contribution and to change to address that. That is what we've been talking about all along. It's the ways that we show up and we create the dance that's happening or do our part to create the dance that's happening.  Neil Sattin: Well Vi Neufeld it's been so great to chat with you about conflict and I feel like we should have argued more or something like that. I'm really appreciating your work. And so can you just tell us a little bit more about the different kinds of things that you offer? Obviously your book grateful for the fight is there for people on Amazon, it's a great read and really a useful tool for self discovery and transforming your approach to conflict. And I don't know about you, but if you can imagine like how tense and how much it can shake up your inner world to know that you're heading into conflict and just how different it can be to imagine stepping into a conflict knowing that you've got you, and that you can take care of yourself. This book is a really helpful part of creating that experience. So I appreciate your work in that way. But, what else are you doing with people? Viola Neufeld: Well I was just going to say that I think one of the real benefits of doing this work is that you end up liking yourself more and you have better relationship. That's the end result. So yes, you know if you... Other things I mean there's all kinds of work. It's always having to do with sorting through relationships and extended families and with couples and in organizations. If some of you want to have a little scale that you can work through and it would be a little handout on enhancing relationship vitality, if you want to do that you can contact me and I'll send you a concept or I'll send you a handout if you like to do that. It would be a way of, you know how you always have ideas about who you think you are in relationship and then who your partner is. This is a way of actually going through a number of indicators and you can do a scoring at the end, which will tell you you know it'll shine some light on who's contributing in what areas and see if your yourself perceptions are accurate or not.  Neil Sattin: Well I'm definitely going to to take your quiz. So, make sure that I get my hands on that as well. Yes. If you want to get a copy of the enhancing your relationship vitality inventory, then you can visit Vi Neufeld's web site which is transpectives.com, and I will have a link to that in the show notes, which you can get by visiting NeilSattin.com/conflict or texting the word "passion" to the number 3-3-4-4-4. And following the instructions.  Neil Sattin: Vi Neufeld thank you so much for being here with us today. It's been such a treat to chat with you.  Viola Neufeld: Thanks so much Neil.  

Self doubt - temporary sadness are F'd, but we ... Also, I have the winning lottery numbers. Maybe I'm lying. Maybe I'm not.

We're at it again with Episode 437, Q&A #30! Submit your own questions for the podcast at: https://robbwolf.com/contact/submit-a-question-for-the-podcast/ If you want to see the video for this podcast, be sure to check out our YouTube channel.   Show Notes: 1. Fitbit Sleep Tracking [1:35] Jay says: G'Day Robb, love your work. I took a break from your podcast to learn computer programming and am now back because I'm stressed and my desk bound body is broken. Glad to be back and see you've figured out your keto problems when bonking during class. I've signed up to your keto master class so fingers crossed. I have a somewhat basic question about sleep. My Fitbit says I slept 7 hours with 1 hour awake. I don't remember waking and there are up to 30 a night of these tiny 'awake' periods. I do sometimes toss and turn to get into comfortable positions. My partner says I'm asleep within minutes of hitting the pillow. So I think I'm sleeping ok. Should I think about this as 8 hours sleep or 7? I tend to wake up energised when my Fitbit says 6hrs 30 mins + 1 hour awake.... So thinking this is equivalent to standard 7-8 hours per night. When I push for Fitbit to say 8 hours then I'm very lethargic when I wake. But it's probably then like 9 hours which could be 'over sleeping' for me. Anyway, love the work you two are doing. I miss the Q&As with Greg but love the new format. Anyway, fangirling from Australia. My question can probably be answered by Google but I'm sure you'll be able to cut through the interjunks. All the best - Jay   2. Palate Fatigue & Food Burnout [8:11] Maria says: Hi, Robb and Nikki, I was wondering if you can address palate fatigue. For some reason, I tend to be the kind of person that needs to have a lot of something and then don’t want it anymore and have to switch. Before, I was into avocados and sardines, all the time, and now it is eggs and bacon. It is almost as if my body is asking for these foods at certain times. Thank you!   3. Protein Toxicity and the Carnivore Diet [12:22] Jesse says: Hey Robb, In WTE you briefly mention (p. 27) that humans cannot consume more than 35% of their calories from protein before suffering from protein toxicity. The carnivore diet has recently gotten some publicity and seems to have some anecdotal success for folks with stubborn autoimmunity issues. Do you think following a carnivorous diet carries a high risk of suffering from protein toxicity? And would we be able to look for evidence of protein toxicity in kidney function testing? Best, Jesse   4. Waking Up From Hunger While In Ketosis [17:55] Justin says: Dear Robb, I'm a huge fan of the pod and your work.  For the past two months, I've been following a keto eating plan (I weigh all food and track macros - I'm usually hitting 40g net carbs, 90-100g protein, and somewhere between 235g-270g fat, for a total of roughly 3,000-3,500 calories per day).  I'm a 30 y/o male, 5'9. I usually eat 3-4 meals/day with no snacks. I currently weigh 156lb and am about 16% body fat (I did a BodPod when I was a few pounds lighter and was at 14.5%). In terms of exercise, I usually go to the gym 3x/week and do some combination of squats, deadlifts, press, and bench press.  As an example of where I'm currently at with strength, I do 4 sets of 5 repetitions (2 min rest periods) 205 pounds on squats.  My question is this: when I try to cut calories down by 300-500 (I'd like to get to 12% body fat), I wake up in the middle of the night hungry.  I feel like I keep hearing on various podcasts and books that I read that in a state of keto, hunger should be significantly blunted and this shouldn't really be an issue.  But I feel like if I don't go to sleep pretty full, I wake up in the middle of the night. I know sleep is critically important, so this seems like a problem. If I eat enough to sleep through the night, I can maintain the same weight but really struggle to lose weight.  I've done self-experiments to make sure I'm not waking up due to stress, noise, etc., and have isolated that my sleep is almost completely correlated with my hunger levels. I wanted to ask for your guidance because I imagine other people might struggle with a similar issue - I know many people who do well with hunger during the day, but not so well at night.  Some things I've wondered about is if I'm overtraining or if there's some sort of other physiological issue I need to attend to. Maybe I'm not understanding keto properly, but I feel like with my macro breakdown I should be able to comfortably go 12-16 hours without eating? Or, is the ability to go prolonged periods without food less about eating and more about individual differences? Thanks for all of the amazing work that you do.  Justin   5. Fasting For Skinny Dudes [23:50] Brett says: Hi. Robb and Nicki... Fasting for overweight or normal weight people has been well covered. Is there any benefit to underweight guys fasting in an effort to add mass? I’m 6’3” and 165lbs, 37 years old. I can eat whatever I want in whatever quantities I want and my weight never changes. I would like to be heavier. I’ve tried weight programs and I tone up ok but it’s rare to add more than 5lbs. The minute I stop the program I’m instantly back to 165. Everything else you always talk about like diet, sleep, stress is already dialed in     Where you can find us:   Submit questions for the podcast: https://robbwolf.com/contact/submit-a-question-for-the-podcast/   Transcript: Download a copy of the transcript here (PDF)

He does not want to sit with me and allow me to walk with him and help him struggle well.  Maybe I'm just not giving enough time.   Then I fall in the rut of "I'm not good enough" or "give me your phone, keys to the car...until you can spend time with your family and work on this..." Dang.  This is hard.  And it is reality for many families.  It's like the story of the prodigal son in scripture, but the son in this story is rebelling while still living under the same roof. Linger in this episode as we share more about transformational and transactional relationships, the power of "I change my mind," and staying connected while staying honest about real problems. We offer these TAKE AWAYS, too: A relationship of trust is one where it is safe to admit I am wrong and say, "I change my mind."  This only happens when there is no added penalty for being wrong--and when the relationship is not at stake. Love always equips and never enables.  Just because a child complies doesn't mean they are growing up.  Compliance only asks me to do what you say to get what I want.  Trusting obedience invites me to trust you--and obey.  Obedience is evidence of maturity. Give your kids car keys and a phone because they are mature and responsible--and for no other reason.  There is too much risk involved in driving a car and having a phone for a child to get this privilege while they are immature and irresponsible. Follow this link to listen now--and subscribe.  Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends. We mention these resources in this episode: Fredericksburg Theater Company - Thank you for a wonderful "Sound of Music" evening.  Friends--check out the website for future productions...and come visit us!  https://www.fredericksburgtheater.org/ Check out our new website--dedicated to all things BRAVE LOVE and EDUCATION.  https://john15academy.com/  The Cure and Parents https://smile.amazon.com/Cure-Parents-Bill-Thrall/dp/1934104094/ Education by Design, Not Default https://smile.amazon.com/Education-Design-Not-Default-Fearless/dp/057840835X/ This blogpost maybe helpful for you and your prodigal.  https://janetnewberry.com/prodigal-welcome-home/    

In true American Dream fashion, Michael Beeman’s story exemplifies just that. Motivated with needing to provide for his family of seven children on just a corporate salary of $60k, he wanted to do more than just make ends meet. Michael started cutting firewood to generate an additional income stream and while doing so immersed himself in listening to countless multifamily podcasts and real estate audiobooks. While his splitting firewood business brought in an additional $15k a year, Michael decided he was ready to make the leap into real estate investing.  With $12k to his name to invest, he turned to his mother and best friend to see if they were interested in working with him to start looking for his first deal. His mother and best friend contributed $20k. Then Michael was able to invest in his first deal and he has been acquiring multifamily units ever since with a current portfolio of 136 units.  On this episode of Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden, Michael shares the details of his current projects, how to find the right deal at the right time, and discussing the importance of networking to develop key relationships for future business partnerships. Michael describes how his passion for real estate investing paired with his resourcefulness helped him find his first breakthrough deal and overcoming the challenges he faced along the way. Listen in for a remarkable story of Michael starting a side-hustle of splitting firewood into real estate investing with a portfolio worth seven-figures in less than two years! Highlights:  Michael’s beginnings in Real Estate Investing Key Tips for Acquiring Multi-Family Units How to Find the Right Deal  How to Stay Open-Minded when forming Partnerships  Ways to Analyze the Current Market and Anticipate  The Importance of Networking and Building Relationships   Connect with Michael Michaelbeeman@beemanandsons.com #: 217-508-8185   ----------------------------------------------------------Transcription   Hey, guys welcome to the show. Today we're going to host Mr. Michael Beeman. I'm very excited to have him here because his story is truly exceptional. Michael was able to educate himself in real estate through podcasts and books. And two years later his portfolio is worth a little bit over three million dollars which is phenomenal. So without further ado let's welcome Michael to the show.  Welcome to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies.  Hey, Michael welcome to the show. How's everything today. Oh, everything is going well. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. I can't complain. How is your day so far?  It's going good. You know talking to some business partners talking to some possible investors looking at deals; always grinding. That's the key to success though. Honestly, I'm very excited to have you here today on our show because your story is a story that a lot of people could relate to as you know you started with a big family and you were splitting wood the last time I checked I kind of listened to your story in a different podcast. This story was so special that I wanted to have you on my show as well and see how you could change your whole life from one direction to the other with real estate. So, first of all, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself so my audience here would know this story as much as I do.  Well back in early 2016, I was going through bankruptcy from a previous marriage where I had agreed to take on more debt than I actually could handle, but    I also got custody of my kids We met and we had three kids each and we have a very large family. And I was making 60 grand a year and she had to stay home with the kids because we had very young ones. Obviously, a newborn plus you know seven children altogether between doctor's visits and everything else it made working for her almost impossible with the cost of daycare and stuff. So I decided to start a side hustle splitting and selling firewood because I knew that that would help us to make ends meet a little better, but then I was doing that for about a year and a half or about a year into it I started listening to real estate investing podcasts. And one of my dreams, you know at the time I had been renting, was to own rental properties because I'd always felt like landlords were making pretty good money, of course, that was the naive mindset of a renter at the time, but I was willing to learn and grow. And so I had saved up about twelve thousand dollars and I went to my brother and my mom with this plan of what I was gonna do.  And I was asking them to all pitch in - and let me guess they were not really up for it. No, they were not up for it at all. So then my best friend he had said I'll pitch in twenty thousand dollars because I just inherited 80. What would you give me for that? I said I will give you one-quarter of the business. And then my mom heard about that and she had actually wanted to go along with me before, but she did not want to upset my brother. So it felt like the easiest route was to just be quiet. So she went ahead and said No if he's going then can I have one quarter for 25 percent so then I had all of a sudden fifty-two thousand dollar pool of money to expand wisely to start investing. So shortly after that one of my buddies was over and we were having a drink that evening and I was telling him about you know because I always talk about this you've got to be super excited and you've got to be really excited and you've got to really want to go for it. And so I was telling him about my dreams and what I was planning on doing. And he said, Well I don't know if you're interested, but my girlfriend's mom used to manage this 66 unit building for the guy and then he got tired of dealing with it. Now it's sitting vacant -it needs some work, but you can get it at a steal of a deal.  So you know you basically heard about a motivated seller of a six-unit.  Yep. So I bought the thing and I had to go through and rehab every unit, but I got 100 percent financing down. I spent a little bit of the fifty thousand rehabbing every unit. We did a lot of work ourselves, my wife and I and then we had some help from an outside contractor so what was the total amount of the purchase price. What was at this point I was sixty thousand, but it appraised even vacant right then for ninety thousand. It's amazing.  Yeah I mean you're in the Midwest so you can buy six units for sixty thousand in the Midwest.  Well, that's uncommon. I wish I could find another six units for sixty thousand. I'll tell you that you're usually looking at 30 to 40 thousand units around here, but yes. So it was a steal of a deal and I ended up putting about thirty thousand units and we ended up about two years later we sold it and made a significant profit on it.  That was your first deal in real estate, wasn’t it? Yes. And that was basically for you. I remember my first deal it was a flip I flipped the house and it was just a residential deal. And I remember I made good money, but you know your first deal is as if it's there to teach you what's going on. And just the rules, but it's not there for you to be able to make a lot of money. Everybody feels this way about their first deal, but you managed to somehow jump from 16 a deal as your first deal to what was 61 62 units.  Yes. For the next year, I was looking at triplexes - I found a 10 unit that was mostly vacant about six of the units were vacant and needed rehab. We got a really good deal on it and then I found a five unit that was vacant. So I was finding these landlords that were just exhausted that's all.  Ok so let's focus on that. Let's focus on the people that are just trying to get into real estate we all know it's about finding the deal. That's how you make money. So what would you give as advice to two young investors that are trying to find deals? When you say I found these deals how did you do that.  Well in my case I had a local broker that knew what I was doing because she had done a little bit of it years before, but never had done it in multi-family she would just buy single-family houses and she had been a landlord and decided she didn't want to be a landlord sold all of her portfolios and bought a hotel. She basically knew that there were still deals out there and she knew that there was finally a buyer around that would do it. You know that was gonna buy these and was gonna fix them up and actually do something with them. So she was bringing me a deal or two. And then when the landlords locally within 30 miles of me started hearing this the ones that were exhausted may occasionally talk to each other their friends they have their own community because these are generally 60 to 80-year-old men and they have their own community. And so as you know these might these portions of their portfolio that they don't want to deal with that you don't want to go through the hassle of a whole rehab. They don't want to deal with contractors and they're just kind of like the look I'll take a loss on this. And so that's how I built my portfolio over the course of a year. And then I got a deal from also an exhausted landlord that was a really good deal and I knew I was pretty well out of money getting close to being out of my own money to be able to just continue to buy up these deals because I refinanced out of as many deals as I could, but the bank was getting a little bit tight on being able to refinance. They wanted you to hold it for two years. And I'm not the type of guy that wants to hold onto something for two years to wait to do something else. I'm the type of guy that wants to go slow down. So high time right. Right. So I had a guy that reached out to me is a software engineer. Name is Rohit Jenga and he reached out to me he asked me cause he was really interested in real estate investing and he had a little bit of money saved and he was interested in partnering with me because he'd heard me on another podcast and I had said no at first that I didn't need any more partners. And then after I ran into a wall I was like you know what open your mindset Michael and look think that you do have something to bring to the table even though you can't bring money and maybe he can bring a little money and you guys can do a deal together. So we did and it gave him something like fourteen point nine percent returns and he was excited. Obviously, everybody be excited about that. So he was really excited. He got really good returns. And now all of a sudden I had an investor that was actually asking me if I had more deals.  So he was investing the entire amount or the entire downpayment.  He invested about 60 or 70 percent of the down payment. I had two other small investors that invested 10 percent down each and then I invested 10 percent. Now, what was that? What was the size of that deal? That was an eight unit deal. It was only about I found it half of an exhaustive landlord off the market so it was I think I only gave like twenty-five grand a door for it and now it's raised at like thirty-four. So anyway and we're actually in the process of trying to refinance cash out the investors, but they still get to hold onto their portion of the investment. Right after that so now I'm sitting around after this deal and I'm sitting on about 50 to 60 units at the time period and I start looking around and I'm like because he had mentioned bring in more money my mother because she was getting really good returns and she had a decent amount more money from her savings. My dad passed away in 2015. His family owns and runs this family business and so she had said well I could maybe bring some more money well. I talked her into bringing twice as much money as what she originally wanted to bring and Rohit brought a huge chunk of money so they basically both brought two hundred thousand dollars each because we were buying a sixty-two unit and we raised another one hundred thousand dollars from investors and we bought this 62 unit that we're always going to raise with half a million. That raised was half a million. So we did a syndication on that 8 percent preferred return and we had a huge value add in there which was there were thirty-nine thousand dollars thirty-nine or forty-two thousand dollars in water bills that we could get the tenants to pay because it was common locally to have tenants pay their own water bill, but we could do nothing expensive significant. Yeah exactly. So we could decrease the expenses significantly plus the units per unit rent was about fifty to seventy-five dollars below market so we could increase the value significantly. So we're in the process of doing that. And then we basically add about seven hundred fifty thousand dollars in total value to the property and then our plan is to have a two-year exit strategy to either ten thirty-one exchange out of that or try to refinance out of it. And so that's what put more permanent Fannie Mae debt on it. That's right.  So I want to ask you a few questions about that one deal specifically because I know as I talked to you before and we discussed the fact that you started from. So I want to talk about that for a minute. Here's the question that I have. As far as how you got the deals so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the place that you're living is that is that a small town or a small community.  The place that I'm living is a small community it's about halfway between St. Louis and Indianapolis right on the interstate that runs between I 70. So it's a small community with actually a Good job market in the area. There's a decent amount of jobs because there's a pretty thriving oil industry locally. Yeah and so then there are jobs for that. There's a local company that does about three different states around here and they do right away clearing for the pipelines so there's a lot of good jobs for young men that just start them out paying you to know 14 to 20 dollars an hour.  That's so important what you're saying right now. Why everybody keeps saying to first work your market. Doesn't matter where you are because you know your market better than anybody else. Exactly. And you know so from what it sounds it looks like you knew the people and that is how you got in touch with the brokers and that is how people got the word for what you're doing. And then they contacted you and you kept getting more and more deals because of the small community and now you're a player and people hear about you and they know about you. So they start picking up the phone and call you and wanting to invest with you wanting to sell you deals right.  That's the game. Yeah exactly. And so then we're basically doing that and then I'm on a few podcasts here and there because my story is quite interesting. That's not very common that you go from the guy that was renting his house for four years ago having a side hustle that was splitting firewood and you know exhausting work to have a portfolio that's worth over three million dollars. So that's not a common thing. So then I'm in the middle of this sixty-two deal the financing falls through.  And it was the loan it fell through on the day of closing. Oh actually I just had an interview with Joe Fearless on this and I think that comes out soon, but this whole financing topic because it was such a struggle to put the whole entire. And you can hear that story because it's a twenty-five-minute interview by itself, you can hear that story on Joe fearless. So that fell through and I struggled and I pieced all of it back together and still got it closed with a different lender.  And so you got to extend it closing. And yeah I had to get an extension on the closing date. I did do all of the things that you have to do when you're just trying to salvage something and we're talking on your first indication - Yep on my very first syndication Well my first syndication. My other one was a partnership.  You have to go through all this adversity and you manage to pull through and you manage to make it happen. That's amazing. Yep yep.  So now we're in the process of doing those value ads and then you know I started to give out my phone number on podcasts and I started talking to people just a lot more regularly just because it's so interesting. Like we were talking before this about your market because down in your market you have a portfolio that is basically about the same size as mine in gross gross revenue, but your money as opposed to residential or residential housing. And how do you know in your market you know you try to find cash flow, but you have to also assume appreciation and different things.  It's kind of different because you can make the same money people make in the Midwest from buildings from you know from single-family homes.  Yes. Yeah exactly.  And like you say the sellers are not as sophisticated you know when you talk to a single family owner they're not sophisticated you can get a bargain and it's yes it's quite easy. Where we talked to a multifamily investor then they're obviously not living in the property and know what they're doing.  Yeah, you're basically looking for in my market a lot of times you're looking for Mom and Pop owners. I have one of the good friends that are. A married couple that basically we partnered up. They brought the investment dollars we partnered up on a 12 unit that I found off-market in Terre Haute, Indiana which is right near me in a really nice location. And we founded off of a mom and pop owner and he had kept hold of it for about eight or nine years, but with his disability had come through from the military and he was already you know obviously he had all the back pain and shoulder pain. But anyways he's ready to sell and he got one of my letters from one of my mailing campaigns and he sent me a text message what I thought was kind of odd just getting a text message Yes I do want to sell and I'm like I don't think he realized because we did take time to make sure that the mailing looked like it was individualized, but I don't think he realized that I sent out like four hundred of them. And so it's like I'm sorry I'm confused too is this for me. You thought he was the one who got the letter. I developed a relationship with him and only that eight-unit building that I was talking about that I'd also bought. So this was a twelve unit building. This was a twelve unit building that he had bought back then and he wanted only twenty-five grand a unit for it as well. I already knew from my experience buying that eight-unit building and for twenty five grand a unit that we were gonna get some good returns if I could figure out how to come up with the sixty seventy thousand dollars I needed to get the deal done and sixty or seventy thousand I could probably go to the bank this point and get a lean on one of my businesses, but I'm really not trying to just leverage myself to death. I'd rather bring somebody else and opportunity partner with them on the deal. We have a property management company in place that can take over property management at a very reasonable like 8 percent on those units or 7 percent on those small families and still get great returns. I still wanted the deal. I just knew no matter what I didn't want to let that kind of deal go away. And so I built a relationship with him and then partnered with Roman and Amy and they brought the money to the deal. I bought the deal and we had good proper management and so we just closed on that last week so that brought us last month and that brought us a hundred thirty-six units. That's great.  So yes that's the portfolio right now one hundred thirty-six.   Yep, yep that's right now. And so right now I'm working on I'm going to tomorrow to look at a twenty-three unit building that is two thirds vacant exhausted landlord and it might be a steal of a deal as well. He's talking and numbers that are sound and really good at his per unit price. Actually, it's ironic.  I lived in the building when I was in college. Yeah. So 12 years ago I rented that building so I thought that was funny.  So I want to ask you another question regarding the first deal the sixty-two units. So yes a lot of young investors and syndicators they're worried about the value. So you know they worried about getting into the building and doing the renovations and picking up what needs to be done. And so you've noticed that there are a lot of expenses that you could reduce and that was your value plan. And so what I want to ask you is as a beginner so you could say somebody who had never done a big deal like that before is a beginner. So as a beginner How did you have the confidence of trusting your value and then knowing that this is what needs to be done in the property and that this would bring you to the place that you want to be? Maybe I'm overconfident I don't know. I think you know my degree is in business and I've read basically every book I could get my hands on real estate investing I've listened to thousands of hours of podcasts when I get into something I really get into it and I really study it. And so I knew you know I knew that if the same thing that I was doing was working on an 8 unit building there was absolutely no reason it wouldn't work for who underwrote the deal.  Did you do the underwriting?  Yes. Myself and my mother. Oh and that's special. Yep. Myself and my mother and so we underwrote the deal together. And then I kind of I've managed it because she's actually she enjoys your area. She gets down to Miami for about two or three months in the wintertime and we were closing and it was early spring late winter and she's in Miami. It's the closing day. It's the last day of all the extension that I got. And we're trying to do a for a close from down there. It was just a whole heck of a fun mess because we finally close the deal from Miami.  I mean I always whenever I close the deal you know I do that from Miami.  So I guess, you know she has a bank account with Regent Bank and I thought you know she has 50. She has 50 thousand sitting in that bank account just because it was one of her expense accounts or whatever. And I thought oh you know what. You have to fax and do a whole bunch of things just walk into a local Regence bank account. Tell me your account number. Tell him you need a little bit of assistance to just get this done. The guy behind the counter called his manager and the manager came out and said Well I don't care. We're not doing it we're not helping you. And so that's not our policy. We don't do that. She's like I'll pay you a dollar a page I know it's like one hundred some pages. I'll pay for you. I don't care. I don't want it. She's Ubering all over town trying to get something that will fax and do this other stuff because the hotel she was at was more not less of a hotel and more of the Air B and B for a month. So she didn't have access to anything. She didn't have access to any of those items that she would need to fax or email or any of this stuff. And so finally she gets the job done in the end and gets the paperwork signed and overnighted. And we finally get the deal closed, but that was just one of them. Yeah that was just one of the fun things at the end of the confidence issue I think that I run into that a lot of people call me and I try to mentor everyone. Everyone that asks or try to help people out all the time try and share my time. It actually just comes around to you too because when you do that you talk to these people you work together on stuff you know deals are coming your way. They'll have deals that they can't take down, but they know about and sometimes they'll have investors that are looking for a good deal and you'll have a good deal and you'll find an investor that helps you out there's more things to it than that because sometimes you'll get nothing more than just satisfaction and that'll be that's just it.  I mean you know why you're always going to get burned out because I have the same example this guy who's trying to get into real estate who's calling you about this deal and I could see that he was trying to wholesale deals and you know as I came in if you're already wholesaling it then you might as well just do a different thing. And so he was I guess listen I'm new and you know I don't know things right. So it's like hey come on up to my office and sit and let's talk about things and let me teach you a few things and then you know this guy he's one of my students now. So we've been doing I think we've done three deals together in the past two months. Completely changed his whole life. Also changed my income, of course, I made good money from that. So my desire to help him and teach him ended up creating some nice income for me you know from deals yes. Exactly. I would never find. And so helping others as always. You know you give what you get back. That's it. That's a law that any investor I think is already aware of that. Any serious investor is already aware of that right now because you know it's just the way things are. It's like karma is the way the world is working.  No, I totally understand that. You know it's just that's the way the world works. I think if you give it you can't you know you'll get the satisfaction you'll get deals you'll get it if you give your time and effort and you know because at this point it's very possible for me to just step away and say you know I have enough money to pay my bills. Well, I can kind of live this you know semi-retired life come in and check on the people at the property management company that they're actually filling units and doing their job, but I don't really have to because they do a great job at that. You know and I could be like which I do you know I do quite a bit of vacationing. I probably go on three or four of them this year, but which you know one-week vacations  It's a privilege that you deserve to get and also I just took a vacation in L.A. and I went there for three weeks. You know I just felt a little bit overwhelmed and when I got back I was so clear. You know and I was so motivated to do things you know things that I could not complete before all of a sudden it’s a piece of cake.  Yeah. Because you're basically your distressing from everything and stepping away, but I enjoy the grind. I keep coming into my office every single morning. I've got a list and right now I'm working with a life coach on organizing my life a little bit more, my time and trying to pack in what I'm doing. I'm curious about that.  So what exactly do you mean organizing your time a little more so? Right now I feel like there are times where I could pack everything I get done and 10 hours into five or six hours I feel like if I utilize my time better in certain areas and if I just went for only my high-performance hours and tried to organize so right now I'm working with her and she is she started out as a health coach and she started that business and she did really well with it and then she moved on to doing a little bit of life coaching because she's a high performer as well and she only wants to really work with high performers and she's kinda getting tired of being the health coach because sometimes you're not working with high performers.  And so she was offered her services after I pay for the health coaching stuff and started working on that she offered the life coaching for free because she'd been studying that for quite a while and so she wanted to see if she could take me on and help me out. So right now we're working on a schedule so I can see if I can't pack 10 hours of work into six hours of really effective high-end time and then be able to spend a little bit more time with my family.  Yeah obviously. So as you're saying it's always important to get better and work on self-improvement and I'm going to ask a question since you said you mentioned the fact that you're reading a lot and you're listening to a lot of podcasts so I bet you can give us a recommendation for the book that everybody listening to this show must read. So what's the book that you recommend the most to our listeners?  So if you're a very beginner and you need the confidence to step out into know everything about everything from the small stuff into you know basic mid-sized stuff because generally if you're a beginner you're not going to step in and buy a 60 unit even if you have the money you're going to be too scared or you're gonna make a mistake.  Brandon Turner did a wonderful job - His earlier book called The Complete Guide to Real Estate Investing. And I really enjoy that book because he explains his roles in single-family houses and multifamily. He explains a whole list and how to do it. Who to go to for financing. How to do the burn method which is by rehabbing refinance and get your money out. So he does a great job on that book and then he also does a follow-up book which is basically the complete guide to like I think property management or something like that. Managing your real estate in a real estate investment manager which my knowledge from just that book made me feel like a real king because Rich Dad Poor Dad does a great job with your mindset and Richest Man in Babylon really does a good job with your mindset.    I highly recommend both of those yes Rich Dad Poor Dad is the first business book that I've read. I think I read it when I was 15 or 16 and dad died. It was a book that changed my life forever. It means that I still do everything that I am you know right now is because of that book.  So I think reading books is so important and it's something that I've had to constantly improve because everybody around you is a possible partner, but you need to know what they know you need to be able to be on top of everything going on. I love that Marcus Miller lets out a bunch of good information on their website about markets that you can go to. What are things selling for? Watching the trends. And then I also spend quite a bit of time listening to podcasts that talk a lot about economics. I spend a lot of time which isn't even in the real estate deal I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts on economics trying to understand and see if I can somewhat predict that case.  So that's how he is today. Exactly. No yes, the fiat money. Basically, you're telling me it's probably going to be talking about the fiat money system monetary system. Yeah, I would love to read that thank you for the book recommendation of course. Michael, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions because I love talking to people about their markets as well. You said you were down in south Florida. That's right. How did you get started?  So I got started I was actually in the retail business and I managed to save money together with my brother who's also my business partner and we always had a dream of becoming real estate investors and so we figured you know we were doing good money in retail, but we lived in Minnesota. So the cold wasn't for us I mean I love Minnesota.  It was like we said OK that's it we're Israeli. So I mean the cold wasn't for us. It's just you know not good for our blood I guess you know growing up in Israel you were so used to the heat. So we moved to Miami. Also, this is a big community of Israel people here and Jewish people and so we figured you know it's where we want to live. And we didn't think back then, Miami was the right market for us as far as mystical, but we said we're not going to compromise about you know our lifestyle because what's the point. What's the point of making a lot of money if you're not enjoying your life. So exactly yeah. So we moved here to Miami and then we were looking for. We were looking for a residential deal we were looking for a house to flip because we had enough money to buy in cash. So we went for this one property and then we found it and we flipped it and it took us about I would say six months to complete the renovations and sell the property and we made a decent profit I say I think it was sixty-three thousand and so we made a decent profit, but then during that process we were exposed to real estate wholesale and we figured that Miami and the entire region of South Florida was at its peak when we were there. So we came right on time and so properties were still appreciating a great deal. And so we managed to two also properties and you know us in our minds that we thought that when you host a property that you're going to take a fee of five or ten thousand, but literally we know that you could make fifty thousand sixty thousand if you're into it. Absolutely. Yeah. We stumbled upon this one particular deal that we got under contract for I think it was 80000. We had it under contract for eighty thousand and we were able to sell it for one hundred and twenty-five thousand and that's in two weeks time. So we made forty five thousand in two weeks and then we started comparing you know that with the flip that we made a little bit more, but it took six months and we had to put all the money down and so we were thinking  - Well wait let's change the direction here let's change our plans. Yeah. And so and so we changed our direction from doing flips into risk at wholesale and then things happened really fast. It's just it all exploded one day. So you know I remember this particular day that I was realizing that I was making good money you know really good money for the first time in my life. I was pretty young when that happened. So I couldn't you know really cope with it because mentally when you make a lot of money and you're very young family then something happens to your mental state your psyche, yeah you change. And so then you got to rebuild yourself and that's the position that I was at the time. And so from that point on we decided that we want to grow and we want to do things are a little bit bigger. And I remember that one time that I drove on the highway on I 95 and I've seen people doing you know renovating buildings you know left and right. I was like Well you're good enough you're able to do that. And so that's how I got into commercial real estate. And right now we are actually closing on a deal in Hollywood, Florida. It's on land and we bought it for $275,000. Yes. That particular deal is you could develop it, it's zoned for multifamily and the owner didn't care. He just sold it to us for a little bit under retail. It's like 320 and so we bought it for two seventy-five and we already have offers for like 550. It's like two. That's awesome. Yeah. So we're thinking about developing it and doing it ourselves or you know wholesaling it because we're just thinking about maybe wholesaling commercial properties or developing and getting into you know syndicate a few deals so that's the way to do it.  Where did that confidence come from for you to step into that from just you know all selling residential to step into because that's a big jump? That's a big jump stepping from the small individual house to wholesaling you know a large commercial space.  Well, that's a great question. First of all, you know I'm in a position where I hold many properties so I have passive income that comes in my way every month. So I'm not afraid because even if I'm going to make a mistake and that's what people don't understand when you're into real estate at the beginning it's so difficult, but when you’re already making good money. There is a confidence boost because you feel like you're invincible because you're making money passively every month. Your whole selling properties. Also every month you have acquisition managers people that that take care of your leads and go to go to your meetings so your time is a little bit more free. And then you have contractors working on your flips. So you're gonna be making good money one way or another. Right. You asked me about confidence. There is a boost in confidence because of right. OK, I'm going to buy that deal for $275,000. If I'm going to make it then and I could develop it and sell it for four million or I could assign it for four hundreds of thousands more then I would definitely learn something and I'll definitely get into a different arena.  Right. And so I guess that you could do knowing that it's okay that even if you can't make it and even if you lose that money anyway. I mean what a losing time my money when I buy a prize you can't lose product losing time.  Yeah, but even if it's just kind of that attitude that grabs you and it's the same thing for me it's that attitude that grabs you and says look even when I just started my attitude was OK I already have this side hustle and already have my job so I'm making seventy-five grand a year. I can make all I can pay all my bills even if I flop on this real estate thing which I didn't think that I would. I still felt like I know the property I know the property's worth more than what I'm buying it for. So it's really hard to lose on a hard asset. It's not like throwing your money into Google and then all of a sudden their ad revenue drops and you have no control over anything the ad revenue drops or something like that and you suddenly lose 20 percent of the value of your money. It's not very rarely anything like that happened because you have the knowledge your and control the asset.  All of that of course and I'm going to finish our amazing interview which is really one of my favorites so far by saying that you can't really lose because even if you lose money is the way that I see it right now as a successful investor is fake. But knowledge is not fake. And even if you're going to lose money then that is your tuition.  You learn something and when you learn something that is going to be there forever until your last breath you're going to remember and know and have possessed that knowledge which could be utilized into the next deal. So I don't think you could ever lose money or you could ever lose you could lose money, but you could never lose when you're getting into real estate. I don't think that's exactly what it has been wonderful talking to you Michael really I had a great time and I'm sure we're going to be in touch you know and talk about other things in the future. Absolutely. Thank you for coming into the show and I really appreciate it because it's something that you know I'm grateful to be able to talk to people and hear their stories. I know you know we're investors and our time is very valuable. I want to thank you for dedicating the time to talk to us today. Really.  Absolutely. Thank you very much.  All right Michael. So you have a great day.  Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time.     

Have you ever felt overwhelmed by thoughts and temptations that you knew you didn't want to think about? Then, after feeling defeated, you began to question what you are doing wrong. I'm very aware and very familiar of this cycle. I too went through a season when I was frustrated at the amount of temptations that came from seemingly every angle of life. It felt as if my 'old man' never left and I began to reason; “Maybe I'm doing this wrong!” I questioned why I was being tempted and believed that I simply wasn't focusing on God enough. Even worse, I began to equate temptation with sin. I believed that anytime a thought came to my mind or that I was tempted in some way; It was me. I was sinning. I was no good. I was rotten. If you can relate to that, I want to tell you, that is so far from the truth. Speaking of Jesus, the apostle Paul says that He, has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. -Hebrews 4:15 That means that you can be tempted and still not sin. It doesn't mean you’re not good enough. It doesn't mean you are not saved. It doesn't mean that you are far away from God. On the contrary, the fact that you are being tempted in a certain area is probably because you are walking into a Promise Land. A land that may have been occupied by the enemy before. A land that he may have been wreaking havoc in before, but here you are, showing up with God by your side. He knows that you are an overcomer. Now the only thing he can do is shoot some flaming arrows at you. Here's what the word says. Ephesians 6:16 says “Take up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish the flaming arrows from the evil one.” So check this out, I don't want you to miss this. Pay attention: If a flaming arrow passes your shield of faith it doesn't stop there. You see because the next verse, Ephesians 6:17 says that you should “Take up the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.” Now, the word sword in the Greek isn’t actually a sword that you would take up and use both hands with. No, it is the word for “dagger”. It is the type of dagger that the Roman soldiers would carry on them to be able to dig out any arrows that would pierce their armor. What God is actually saying here is that if by chance, any flaming arrows, any lies from the enemy, passes through your faith and actually pierces you, you still have the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. You still have your dagger to be able to dig that flaming arrow out. So you flip to the word of God and you find the promises that He’s speaking to you. You find the actual truths that he is saying about you. You see, the devil is called an accuser and a liar in the Bible for a reason. If you ever want to know the truth, if you are ever curious about what the truth is you just go ahead and hear what he is saying to you, flip it, and you have your answer. Flip whatever the enemy is telling you right now and that's the truth. Men, be encouraged! If the enemy is trying to come at you it's probably for a reason. It’s probably because you are gaining ground in an area that he occupied before. He knows how dangerous you would be if you actually stepped into your identity in that area. He knows he must do everything he can to be able to keep you out of that. So he starts to throw these flaming arrows at you, makes sure that you keep at a distance from the area you are supposed to inhabit. He tells you that you are not worthy. That you are not the man that you should be; that you aren't a chosen one, that you aren't a saint. Whatever! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/madetoreign/message

So many of us are solopreneurs, but have you ever met another small business bad-ass and totally clicked? That’s what happened for today’s guests, Minna Khounlo-Sithep and Jacqueline Snyder, voices behind The Product Boss Podcast. For some background, after Minna had her first child she was inspired to start Lil' Labels, write-on kids labels that are sold at retail giants like Amazon, Walmart and Jet. At the same time, Jacqueline was running her own product based business, Cuffs Couture, and growing her international sales. Jacqueline reached out to Minna in a business Facebook group, and the two totally hit it off. Today, Jacqueline and Minna work together to teach business owners how to grow their product-based businesses with smart strategy and a community around them. In addition to running the podcast, they each still own their own businesses.  On Episode 110, we’re all sitting down to talk about the pros and cons business partnerships, how Minna and Jacqueline divide responsibilities, and what to look for if you’re considering taking on a new partner. We also talk about how Minna and Jacqueline juggle their multiple businesses, and they share their top tips for product based business owners.  ON TODAY’S EPISODE:  What inspired Minna and Jacqueline to start their own businesses The evolution and importance of celebrity endorsement How Minna and Jacqueline met  Moving from online, becoming friends, and deciding to partner up Hesitancies of forming a partnership Dividing responsibilities How Jacqueline and Minna balance their individual businesses with The Product Boss The importance of implicit trust  Questions to ask yourself before finding a business partner Strategies for dealing with day to day stressors Shifts Jacqueline and Minna have seen in the industry  Alternatives to tradeshows and advice for scaling your business What’s up next for The Product Boss KEY TAKE-AWAYS:   “I dug in and I figured it out, and I had the tenacity of a pregnant woman going to give birth. So the rest from there just was it seemed easy.” -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “I'm very much a book learner. So it was in my mind that I could just learn all about Amazon. I was already a fan of Amazon, so I basically schooled myself on Amazon.” -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “I was in my 20s and going out and wanting to dance and have no purse. I always hated having to put my purse under like a jacket in the corner at bar. And so I created Cuffs Couture, which were fashionable, chic wrist wallets.” - Jacqueline Snyder  “We started a business without realizing we were starting a business, and yeah. She's not a serial killer. So at least a good thing, right?” - Jacqueline Snyder  “We get so many ideas going as entrepreneurs. We just know how to do things. We kind of know how to execute or figure it out along the way. And then on top of it, we really did have a great connection.” -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “We approach things very differently, and the thing is we get along really, really well. But I think the key is we trust each other implicitly.” -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “Big brands are not as agile as a smaller entrepreneur. We can try something today and if it doesn't work tomorrow, we can shift gears, or we can try again in a different way.” - Katie Hunt “My biggest thing with being a partner is like, "Am I doing enough? Am I showing up and handling my role? Am I doing enough?” - Jacqueline Snyder  “It's highly psychological, lots of mindset, and you have to be able to see that other person as a full partner that has all these fears and joys too. So you're always trying to balance that out.”  -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “We're complete opposites as far as personality wise or approaches. But we definitely have the same love for so many things. We love our families. Our why is exactly the same.”  -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “I don't think I would work well with a partner. Maybe I'm too bossy, I don't know. Too decisive. But I think that's why I find partnerships so fascinating because when you have two of the right people together, amazing things can happen.” - Katie Hunt “The face of product entrepreneurship and a product business is really changing, which is why you can see why stories are so important. Learning how to sell with your story and those personal brands is more important than ever before.”  -  Minna Khounlo-Sithep “The opportunities have shifted for product based businesses, and the customer has changed quite a bit too. So it’s an interesting dynamic how we have to adapt as product based business owners.” - Katie Hunt LINKS Website: http://www.lillabels.com; http://www.theproductboss.com Instagram: http://instagram.com/lillabelsco; http://instagram.com/theproductboss   SUBSCRIBE To subscribe on iOS, go to the iTunes page and subscribe to Proof to Product. On Android, you can listen using your favorite podcast app.  WRITE A REVIEW Writing a review on iTunes will help other product based business owners find Proof to Product as they are working to up level, scale, and build profitable and sustainable companies. FOLLOW PROOF TO PRODUCT Follow Proof to Product on Instagram for the latest updates. JOIN OUR EMAIL LIST If you'd like to receive more information about our upcoming episodes of Proof to Product including show notes and information about our guests, head over to www.prooftoproduct.com and sign up for our email list.   SHARE Be sure to share Proof to Product with all of the product based business owners that you know!  ABOUT PROOF TO PRODUCT: Proof to Product is hosted by Katie Hunt. Since 2011, Proof to Product has worked with thousands of product based businesses to help them up level, scale, and build profitable sustainable companies. You can find our show notes and additional resources at ProofToProduct.com. If you like what you heard today, please head over to Apple Podcast to leave a five star review and subscribe. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next week with a new episode!

Ade and Zach reply to more listener letters! Remember, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, feel free to email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com! You can also DM us on all platforms - they're open! Check them out: Twitter, Facebook, InstagramConnect with us! http://bit.ly/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach. Hey, look, we did it the other way. How does that feel?Ade: Yuck. I can't stand it.Zach: [laughs] It's also alphabetical, and we're going from A to Z with these listener letters. Yo. Bars. [laughs]Ade: All right. [?]. I'm just gonna let you have it.Zach: Man. Y'all, I might be--yo, I might--I need to take these talents, like, to NBC, man. Like, I need to write for somebody. Like, these are good jokes.Ade: Hm.Zach: Or maybe I'd be, like, a ghostwriter, 'cause, like, this is crazy. I have bars. Like, this is great. Did you hear that? I said alphabetical 'cause you--Ade: No, I got the point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? Come on, man. Don't hate. Okay, so look, we're doing these listener letters today. Now, look, we kind of said it last week. The names y'all put in these letters, we're going to say those names unless it seems a little too specific, then we might, like, just call it something else, right? But, like, just know we're gonna read these letters as you send 'em, right? So, you know, sign your name with what you want to be addressed as, and we'll make sure that we respect that, but, you know, we don't want to, like, go into our fake bag name and then, like, give you a fake name, but that might mess around and be your real name, you know what I mean? So just help us out. Help us help y'all. Yeah? Okay. So look, we got these listener letters. We're gonna go ahead and get going. I'ma read this first one. The subject line is "Too Friendly." Uh-oh. What's that mean?Ade: It sounds like a call to HR.Zach: I'm saying. Like, what you mean too friendly? Relax. Okay. "What's up, Ade and Zach?" Look, they kept it alphabetical. What'd I tell you?Ade: [scoffs]Zach: "I feel--" [laughs] "I feel like everyone else is super close at my job and I'm always on the outside of whatever inside jokes they're telling. It makes me question who I can trust, since everyone is friends with everyone but me. They're always going out after work and will come back from the weekend with their stories of what they did. I just want to come to work, do my thing, and go home. I don't want to give up that much time, but I'm also feeling like the odd woman out. What should I do to feel more comfortable at my job? Thanks." She wrote her name as Tracy. Okay, so what should Tracy do?Ade: Well, Tracy, you can't have your cake and eat it too, friend. I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you're saying that you don't want to do the things that make--that have made everyone else become closer and, you know, more vulnerable with each other, right? So I understand wanting to come to work and go home and have that be the extent of your responsibilities at work. That being said, it means that you're not going to have a relationship with the depth that you are admiring and coveting. I mean, you can certainly do the things that we encourage. You can ask your coworkers to go get coffee with you, maybe bring donuts, but you can't have the conversations with people, you can't--honestly, if they're having, like, inside jokes because they went to Happy Hour three times and you went zero times, you're not gonna get any of those contexts. Am I missing something?Zach: No, you're not, and I think ultimately to make friends you have to be friendly. That's what my mom always tells me. Right? Like, you have to actually put yourself out there. So looking at your letter, I'm not really sure--I'm imagining, because of our platform, that you're a person of--a woman of color, and if you are--and even if you aren't, like, it can be hard to put yourself out there and--'cause to show vulnerability with, like, a group of people that you don't really--you don't know, to, like, really try to make friends, and it's tough because, you know, like, the cliqueiness and stuff, like, those things don't just stop after high school. Like, there are definitely, like, work cliques.Ade: Correct.Zach: And so I can understand and empathize with you, you know, feeling a certain kind of way, but, like, if you [?] these insecurities, one way to combat those insecurities is to one, just, like, maybe go out every now and then. It doesn't have to be all the time, but just take the time. Like, if you know they go out somewhere every weekend, maybe you go one time with them on a weekend, or just start maybe with baby steps of if you know they're going out to Happy Hour every single week, you know, maybe choose one or two times a month that you're gonna go with them, right? Like, and then that way you can start kind of easing into it, and that way you will feel more comfortable, and then they'll feel more comfortable, and then, like, it'll--barriers will just kind of come down, I think. But I'm not a woman though, and, like, my wife always tells me that, like, women are different. Like, I'll be kind of talking to her about something and she'll be like, "Look, Zach, women are just different." So help me understand, Ade, what I might be missing in this.Ade: I do not want to project things that aren't there. I don't want to project off of my own personal experiences, simply because I don't think that it does Tracy any good to hypothesize about what could be happening. I mean, her letter doesn't say that she's ever been invited. So that to me might be the issue in that it's one thing that they're having all of these, like, Happy Hours or they're going or whatever it is that they're doing outside of work. It also doesn't say how long that Tracy has been there. It doesn't say that she's ever been extended a formal invitation. It doesn't say that they're including her in other ways that don't include these extracurricular activities, so I--there are many, many different things that could be going on, but what I do know to be true is that Tracy herself says that she only wants to come to work, do her thing, and go home. There are ways to develop friendly relationships that don't also require you to be more vulnerable than you want to be at work. So I would say to Tracy kind of what we said last week with I think it was Jamal. Grab a drink with them. Not, like, alcohol, but grab some coffee or grab some tea, or come in in the morning and ask them about the weekend and share a little bit of what you did on your weekend, or "Oh, hey. Did you guys catch Homecoming on Netflix? Really great. You guys should see it." There's so many--yeah, there's so many different ways that you can share cultural contexts that don't require you to be more revealing than necessary. Also, once you start relying on greater cultural contexts, I mean, you don't have to get their inside jokes, because Beyonce, like, crosses all cultural barriers, right? Like, come on. Come on.Zach: "Come on. Come on." [laughs] No, I super agree, and that's a really good point, like, that culture is a big deal. People talk about culture in, like, these really, like, high-brow, generic, 30,000-foot ways, but I think, like, just really practically speaking, like, for people of color, at least I'll speak for black folks, like, if I'm going out for drinks with you after work, like, that means that I'm really cool with you. So, like, it's hard for us--I'll speak for me anyway. It was hard for me to, like, really be like, "Yeah, I'ma go out to drinks with you," after I've already worked 8 hours or 9 or 10 hours with you and I've seen you, you know what I'm saying, all day, and I don't even know if I really like or trust you. So, like, you haven't really shown me, like, any type of trust-worthy characteristics while we work together, but now I'm about to spend extra time and my money with you? Right? Like, those are the things that have gone through my mind. Like, "Okay, I'ma go break these barriers down," but, like--and we talked about this with Deborah Owens, who's CEO of the Corporate Alley Cat. We spoke with her--we spoke with her about this, I believe that was in season 1, but we were just talking about that's part of the job. Like, doing that, extending yourself is part of your job, and getting to know those people is part of--is part of your whole work life. Like, those are working hours for you. Like, that's how you should think about it. If you genuinely just don't do want to do it, it's important for you to make some of that time. Again, it doesn't have to be all the time, but you should not be like, "No, I don't go to anything." Like, you should go to something from time to time, but I also think it's a really good point that, like, you shouldn't have to extend yourself super far. There are small things you can do at work, you know what I'm saying? There are things you can do at work to make sure that people at least know a little bit about you. Maybe there's some more humor you can insert at work. Again, I'm not asking you to be, like, a comedian. I'm just saying, like, there's things that you can do. So I think that's really good feedback.Ade: I think the final comment that I would want to make is that--have you ever seen that graphic of the cultural context? Like, the cultural iceberg?Zach: Nah, what is that?Ade: Okay, so it's this image that shows--like, you know how an iceberg, you really can only ever see the tip of it, and there's so much more depth or so much more that's underneath the waters? At the top, it shows things like food and holidays and language as the things that are easy to see, but underneath the surface there are things like rules of conduct, child-rearing practices, family values, body language, expectations, aesthetics, personal space. There are all of these different things that are a part of your culture that are so much more difficult to articulate. I think there is such a thing as work culture, a similar iceberg in that it's easy to see, like, your dress code, turn-around time for client deliverables, or just all of these different things that are easy to see once you enter the work space, but they're things that are--that are underneath the surface, right? How often you should be going to Happy Hour being one of them, which could be really alienating for people who don't drink for whatever reason, right, or that you have to make your rounds every day to have conversations with people, which is something that I didn't know when I first started working in a lot of corporate spaces. Like, you have to make rounds. You have to go around to people and make conversations in certain--in certain work environments because you're so scattered, and so in order to maintain your working relationships, it's this unspoken rule that you get up at 10:00 a.m. or at 2:00 p.m. and you kind of go talk to other coworkers. These are all things that are a part of that work culture iceberg that might be difficult to see, and once you have fallen on the wrong side of that iceberg, it's very difficult to repair those relationships. Because they're unspoken, people assume that you know that this is the appropriate thing to do, and so they feel as though you've slapped their hand one too many times when they extended it out and tried to be friendly by inviting you out or by asking you to do whatever, whereas your understanding is "I'm just here to work and go home," and so in order to bridge the gap of those two work cultures, I would say that there is no better time than now to start reaching out. And people love talking about themselves. It's not, like, a moral failing. It's simply just human nature. Like, when people start taking interest in the things that you enjoy and the things that you feel proud of, it makes you feel closer to the person asking. So Tracy, I would advise you to--not us asking you to, like, do any social engineering, but getting to know people by asking them about the things that they love and the things that they enjoy, and also with the understanding that we are not saying that that means that you need to go attending Happy Hours or that you need to extend yourself any further than necessary, simply that it is a mark of a good professional to be able to maintain good working relationships, regardless of the depth of those relationships. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense, and that's just a really good reminder, even for me. Not even for me, like I'm somebody. For me, because--Ade: [laughs] You are somebody, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Aw, thank you, Ade. But no, it's important, like, to make time and to, like, do the rounds. 99% of the time--99% of the businesses that we work in are people businesses. There's some type of people element to it, and even if they're not, like, external clients, if they're just, like, your own colleagues, there's relationships that you need to be continually thinking about in how you manage them. So that makes sense to me. I think it's super spot on.Ade: Cool. Cool, cool. Thank you for writing in, Tracy. We hope that you get a resolution to this soon, and we'd love to hear from you, see how you dealt with this, how you handled--how you handled this conversation.Zach: For sure, for sure. Okay, I see this next one. This one is called--the subject line is "Micromanager." Here we go. I'ma go ahead and read it. Actually, no, do you want to read this one? 'Cause I read the first one. Why don't you read this one?Ade: Sure, okay. All right. "Hey, Living Corporate. So I've been at my job for about two years now and recently got a new manager. They're nice enough, but are nonstop with the feedback," ooh, "as if they have something to say about every little thing to do, from checking my work, how I present and lead meetings and my body language. They're also asking me for their feedback, like, every other week to the point where I don't know what to say. I just am feeling overwhelmed. A part of me wants to tell them to back off, but I'm not trying to cause any trouble. What do you think I should do? Thanks. Courtney."Zach: Hm.Ade: Go ahead, Zach.Zach: So they're nonstop with the feedback. "I feel like they have something to say about every little thing I do, from checking my work, how I present, lead meetings, to my body language." So when I read this, and maybe I'm reading this from, like, a manager lens, right, so I could be wrong, it sounds to me like you have someone who's really engaged and they're trying to help you, right? And then when you say "They're also always asking me [?], like, every other week." So every two weeks they're asking you to give them feedback, so they're looking for you to help them, just like they're trying to help you. Are you just not--maybe you're just not used to being managed. Like, this is kind of weird. This is kind of weird to me. How do you feel? You're making all of these noises, and you were making noise when you read the letter, so, like, what am I missing here?Ade: Okay. I wouldn't necessarily say that Courtney is not used to being managed. I think that there are two conflicting styles here of working relationships. I think that Courtney's new manager is used to, to borrow PwC's phrase, "real-time feedback," and Courtney might be a little bit more used to a more hands-off style type of management, and that will--that will create conflict, but I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. I don't know that anybody is wrong here so much as miscommunicating, because it can be overwhelming to go from a very, very hands-off managerial style to someone who is seemingly in your face all of the time. That can be a very difficult experience. I know that I would be frazzled. I was frazzled when it happened to me, and I certainly think that--and I'm not saying that the manager is wrong either in saying that, "Oh, hey. I noticed that you do things this way. Maybe you should try this way instead," because ultimately most managers who are worth their salt are trying to help you develop your career and help you grow as an individual. They are not being malicious in their feedback, but nobody likes to be micromanaged, and that's likely what that feels like to Courtney. All that to say that I think that there are ways in which you can communicate that you feel overwhelmed with the deluge of information. Maybe you could schedule checkpoints every two weeks with your manager. Like, "Hey, let's go grab some coffee every two weeks for 30 minutes. We can have a conversation about my progress so far. We can talk about what you think I should be doing differently, but the constant check-ins are distracting, they're demoralizing, and I don't feel that they are actually helpful to me."Zach: That's real. You know, so, I'm looking at this email. Like, every other week the manager's asking them for feedback. 'Cause I don't know Courtney. I don't know if Courtney--Courtney might be a man or a woman, I'm not sure--asking them for feedback, right? So, like, asking them for feedback. Like, maybe that's where they can propose this. Like, that's where they can propose like, "Hey, look." Like, being really transparent, right? Like, "Hey, this is how this is making me feel. We have this time already." Unless it's something that's, like, a serious problem, like, "Unless it's something that's, like, gonna break--make something break, like, could we wait to kind of give me feedback during these points?" Typically, I'll say for me anyway, sometimes when I know that I'm micromanaging somebody, I realize that, like, I'm giving them feedback every little step of the way as opposed to, like, backing up and letting them, like, drive something, and then I can be like, "Oh, wait. I was gonna say this, but you ended up doing this anyway." "I was gonna say this, but you ended up--okay, so I don't even have to say anything about this," right? Like, I think that that makes sense. I think there is definitely opportunity, and if they really are being serious about this 360 feedback, I think that's the perfect place to give it to them then, but that's gonna take some vulnerability and, like, courage on your part, right? And you say in here, "Part of me wants me to tell them to back off, but I'm not really trying to cause any trouble." I don't feel like you're causing any trouble, right? I think it's about just being respectful, and nothing in here, what you've said, is that they've been disrespectful to you, so I'm gonna assume that everything has been above the board so far, that it's been, like, work. But that's what I would suggest, and yeah, I'm not trying to be unfair and say that you're not used to being managed. I guess what I'm saying is because of my work history, I've been in so many situations where, like, my lead does not care. They won't communicate with me. And I'm on a project now where I have a very engaged manager, and they really, really are plugged in, and they care about, like, my growth and my progress, and they give me, like, really poignant feedback, and it has felt at certain times overwhelming, but I had to ask myself, like, "Okay, how much of this is overwhelming because of I'm just getting too much feedback? How much is overwhelming because it's like, 'Wow, maybe I haven't really ever gotten, like, on-the-spot coaching about my performance before and, like, I'm just not used to how this feels.'" Like, maybe it's just a new feeling as opposed to me putting it on somebody else, you know what I'm saying? So that's what I mean when Courtney's like, "Okay, well, is this like--" How much is this just a new feeling for you that you need to navigate and, like, work through? That might take you time, and how much of this are you really feeling like they're micromanaging you? That's my take, but I feel like--I feel like we're still saying something--are we saying something different? Like, what do you think about what I'm saying?Ade: I think that it's entirely possible that it's both in that--I think we're actually saying the same thing actually, that the truth is somewhere in the middle, that Courtney might not be used to this person's managerial style, they might not be used to this instantaneous feedback, and that this manager's feedback might be--managerial style might be a little overwhelming, particularly for someone who has been in their position for two years and is switching contexts between two managers, and so I think that as a manager you do have to be mindful of the context and the role in which you step--like, the people who you're managing have had different contexts over time, and I think that it's only fair that you ramp up not coming with guns blazing. And it might not feel that way to you because you're simply doing what you've always done, which is "Oh, hey, I saw this. We should work on that," or "Oh, hey, I think you'd be a much more effective presenter if you did things this way." Which, fair, that's absolutely what you're supposed to be doing, but to manage up, Courtney, I would say that you should definitely take some time to sit down and figure out truly what are the things that make you the most uncomfortable, and then figure out how to make those things work for you, because if the feedback is meant for you to grow as a professional, there's no way that it can be a terrible thing to hear it. However, it's entirely true that it might be overwhelming for you when you're in the middle of deliverables and also trying to incorporate the last six things that were said to you in the last two days. So I would say that for me it would be much more effective to manage up in putting time on your manager's calendar, like, "Hey, every two weeks, let's go out, get some coffee or grab some lunch, and we can talk through my progress over the last two weeks and some areas you would like to see me improve, and we can iterate over my behavior in that way or my progress in that way as opposed to you sending me a note every, you know, three hours, because that's jarring."Zach: [laughs] Every three hours? No way. No way.Ade: Right, it's a little bit much, and not that I don't appreciate you paying close attention to me and my activities, but it does make me feel a little bit monitored and micromanaged, and I can't succeed in that way.Zach: No, that's real, and I mean, like--I'm agreeing with you, right? I agree with that. I think--and I think what's really cool is that two--every two weeks, that can just be the two weeks I already have set up, and yeah, so that's great. I think that's really good feedback. So Courtney, hope that helps. Let us know how it goes. Keep us updated on the progress. I definitely think the term "managing up" is important, 'cause this is part of it, this is a huge part of it, is you having this discussion with your boss, and it seems as--your lead, your manager, and it seems as if--I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it through--I'm being biased 'cause I'm looking at it through, like, a manager lens, but it seems as if this person at least--I mean, the communication is there, right? It's not like you're having to create a lane of communication, so hopefully it should work out. We'll see though. Hm. Okay. All right. All right, y'all. Well, that does it for us on the listener letters. Let's see here. So I have one Favorite Thing, and I recognize that we did not talk about this in pre-production, so if you don't have one it's no big deal. But it's been a couple of weeks, right? So I just want to, like, really quickly--so, like, I feel like I can now talk about Avengers: Endgame. Very good, right?Ade: No spoilers.Zach: No, no. Definitely spoilers. It's been two weeks. It's been, like, two or three weeks.Ade: No spoilers. What? No. Don't be a terrible person.Zach: How am I being a terrible person? It's been mad weeks!Ade: No spoilers! None.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Man, I was about to say--I was about to be like, "And when So-and-so did the such-and-such!" I was just--Ade: I require more of you than you are giving me right now, Zachary.Zach: Man, that's real, that's real. Okay, so I'm not gonna get into spoilers. However, great, great movie. In fact, let me tell y'all what happened. So opening weekend, right?Ade: Oh. I was about to be like, "Didn't I just say?"Zach: Nah, nah, nah. So opening weekend, right? I planned on going Thursday night, but then I had a really busy day on Friday, and I was like, "You know what? Let me be wise and just, like, let me be mature, and I will wait," so I waited. I did not go Thursday night. I ended up going Friday night instead, and man, when I tell you that I was so emotionally overwhelmed. Like, I cried. I cheered. I cried again. I cheered again. I gasped, like, multiple times. I was like, "Man." And so I had already, like, proactively got tickets for Saturday AND Sunday, and I was like--'cause I just know I'm gonna want to see it again, and the theaters are sold out, but I was so tired--like, I was so drained by that movie and the multiple conversations I had--again, I'm not gonna get into spoilers. I was so drained. I was just like, "You know what? Let me just not." I've only gone to see it once. Like, that's how drained I was, 'cause I was just--I cried. Like, it was just so good. I've never seen a movie--like, it's just the culmination of more than 20 films, man. Like, come on, dogg. Like, that's a lot of work. It was so good. Like, you saw it, Ade. Am I tripping? Was it not great?Ade: It was amazing. Amazing.Zach: It was so--like, my gosh. It was so good.Ade: Amazing.Zach: Ugh, so good. So anyway, that's my favorite thing. I hope that y'all go see it if you haven't already, and then also, you need to go ahead and just cut the cable and go ahead and get that Disney+, 'cause y'all know all these shows about to come up. And again, I can't get into the spoilers 'cause Ade told me not to, but there's gonna be a bunch of other stuff coming, and--Ade: I'm just gonna--I need your login information, Zach. Thanks in advance.Zach: You are wrong. [both laugh] You know, it's so funny. Like, everybody has Candice and I's login. Like, I go on my little Netflix and my Hulu, I see, like, 17 accounts. I'm like, "Who are these little profiles?" Like, what is this? Come on.Ade: You're the grown up. I don't know what to tell you.Zach: Clearly. My goodness though, and some of them--some of them created profiles when they were, like, you know, in college, but, like, come on, man. Like, we all got money now. Y'all need to go ahead and help. Get your own, you know what I mean? Anyways.Ade: Chip in.Zach: Chip in, exactly. Put in on this, you know what I'm saying? You know, put 5 on it. That's all I'm trying to say. So okay, with that being said, I feel like we're at the end. So Ade, is there anything else?Ade: Nope, that's it. I actually was gonna use Endgame as my favorite thing as well. I've seen that movie several times at this point, and yeah, y'all watch it so we can talk about it in two months.Zach: Straight up. Okay, well, I guess that's that. Thank you for listening to us and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. We are on all of Al Gore's internet.Ade: Everywhere.Zach: Everywhere. Just type in Living Corporate. Check us out. You type in Living Corporate on Google, we will pop up on every major player. You can check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporatePodcast. You can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And actually, on Instagram it's not @LivingCorporatePodcast, it's @LivingCorporate. Boom. Thank you. If you have any questions, any letters you'd like to send in on the show for us to read them like we did on this episode today, again, just email us, or you can DM us on Twitter and Instagram, 'cause our DMs are wide open. That's right. You don't even have to follow us. You can just DM us, but come on, be polite, 'cause some of y'all be out here wildin', okay? You know who y'all are. I'm not even gonna give you the air time, but you know. Let's see here. What else? What else? What else? Nah, I feel like that's it, you know what I'm saying? Grace and peace, afro grease or whatever else you use to keep your skin and hair lathered. You know, do what you do.Ade: [sighs] So much is happening. Um...Zach: This has been Zach.Ade: ...Yeah. This has been Ade. Y'all pray for Zach. He's going through some things.Zach: [laughs] Not at all, not at all! Listen, okay? Moisturization is important, and we're talking to people of color here. Come on. Like, you gotta--come on, let's go. Carol's Daughter or something. You gotta use something.Ade: [sighs] Goodbye, y'all.Both: Peace.

Welcome to Life After Losing Mom With Kat Bonner. In this episode, we’re joined by fellow podcast host, Jada Johnson-Dutfield. Her podcast, The Club No One Wants To Be A Member Of, is all about her journey toward finding ways to move on after losing her mom. What To Listen For Jada’s recollection of her mom’s whirlwind, tragic death and how it broke her whole world Jada’s feelings about being in her mom’s house and the sensations that came in being in her mom’s familiar environment How Jada approaches conflict when she doesn’t have the strength to argue *How she coped with wanting to carry out her mom’s last wishes in a way that differed from her other family members’ opinions and how she said goodbye in her own way *Jada’s feeling that she needed to be strong for her siblings and how she was unable to fall apart the way she felt like doing inside How Jada’s relationship with her mom evolved from tumultuous teenage years into a best friendship Jada’s favorite bonding memories about talking to her mom while she cooked, and how she finds that connection now What to do now that she can’t turn to her mom for advice How Jada feels about trying to talk to other people instead, and the resentment she feels when no one can live up to her feelings that she had for her mom *Jada’s desire to hide from other people who want to connect – because they aren’t her mom How Jada has learned to acknowledge what she misses Jada’s belief that grief doesn’t stop, even on the good days Finding a form of release in talking to other people who are also in a dark place and being able to help each other Realizing that life is beautiful because of the connections she can make with others Finding joys that keep you going, like being a mother to her son How Jada feels about the cycle and stages of grief Jada is not alone when she says she lost her best friend, but her raw honesty about losing her mom helps give other women going through the same thing comfort and hope. Without sugar-coating her feelings, Jada opens up about the hard reality of not being able to talk to your mom when you need her and how she sees connection and communication now that she can’t lean on her best friend in the moments when she needs her the most. Resources From This Episode: Jada's Podcast on Spotify Jada's Podcast on iTunes Jada's Podcast on Anchor Jada's Instagram Follow Kat: Visit The Website Subscribe to the Podcast Join The Life After Losing Mom Facebook Community Like On Facebook Follow On Instagram Transcript Jada: 00:00 I think the biggest thing that I've found is, um, connecting and just making connections and not being scared to reach out to people. Kat: 00:10 Hey friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Before you go, I have three favors to ask you. First, I wanted to let you know the, I host a group for women where we share our day to day stories, challenges and victories. If you want to come along for the ride, had to Facebook and search for life after losing mom community. Second, if you don't mind leaving me a review and telling me how I've helped you in your grief journey, I would greatly appreciate it. Finally had to cap on our.com forward slash podcast to access previous episodes and subscribe for episodes in the future Jada: 00:43 with my mom. It was very unexpected. So, um, she knew she wasn't feeling well. Um, but that was it. Just we thought it was, she lives in Nigeria at the time and we thought maybe it was malaria, maybe it was this. And she just talked about not feeling quite herself. And then literally one day she was my little brother up and um, said she could hardly move and they took him into the hospital there, her into hospital there, and then she, um, died by the next day, 20, within 24 hours. Um, I had a lot of shock. I'm still in shock now, seven months on. And um, I think a lot of anger as well because to me it's something that could have been prevented if the doctors had done their job. And so it's been very strange experience losing my mom because I felt so conflicted. Jada: 01:36 Everyone always said they're in a better place. Um, but to me she shouldn't have been value yet. And it happened too soon, but I think it happens to see important of us when we have already. Today's, I'm on one would have been a right time. No time. Really. So, yeah. So since then I um, started a little port costs and an Instagram account that I kept secret from friends and family because I just wanted a place to be able to go and vent and talk and meet others that didn't mind me going on. And on about my mom. I think, um, I just felt that when this will happen that people one interested, well at first they were, and then they didn't and they just felt that I was becoming a bit of a bowl or a bit depressing. So I always felt uncomfortable sharing how I was feeling about her. So it was just nice to be in a place like now, like today where I can talk about her and I don't feel that anyone is sitting there thinking, when is she going to get happy about it or be vulnerable. Understand that, you know, life goes on and I do understand these things, but I've lost my mom and I'm still grieving. I think we identity you have to stop. Kat: 02:46 Yeah, you're absolutely right. You do never slub grief unfortunately is a never ending process. Um, and that is very important Jada: 02:56 for Kat: 02:57 people to realize because I think they get idea in their head. They're like, oh, like I've had a good day. I'm not grieving. I'm like, that's false. I'm so great that you've had a good day. But this is a very like, I'm so sorry that you think this is what grief is because it's 100% not. Um, yeah. Wow. Wow. Jada: 03:17 I agree with that as well. Is the fact that um, I think people think that when you're having a good day that suddenly you're better. It's like if you're someone who suffers from depression or anxiety when you dig where they're like, oh you better now, but it's not a question of I can have a great day. I can be happy. You can see me on Facebook and Instagram loving life and yeah, and it's true. I'm not faking it, but then it can hit me a second later and I, I almost feel there's a sense of guilt around people that seem to feel that, oh someone said you're better now then I'm glad to see you're feeling a lot better. And I felt I was mortified. I thought what they think I'm not, I'm not grieving my mother anymore because I'm smiling because I'm doing things cause I'm having a lie. Strange. Kat: 04:04 It is. I'm like, yeah, I'm happy. Like I'm happy. I'm happy today. Like, is that a crime? But yeah, that's a whole other conversation. Um, yeah. Well I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine being in, I mean, nobody can ever prepare yourself for, you know, the death of your mom regardless if it's expected, regardless if it is expected or unexpected. Excuse me. Um, but yeah, I mean you, you live in the UK? I believe so. Wow. Your mom being in Nigeria. Um, so were you able to get there in time or not? Jada: 04:40 Wow. Wow. Festival. It wasn't even a question of getting there in time because when I told you in is possible, my little brother, she coordinates it off. They're just making, being melodramatic moms young do the weather. She's, she's fatigued. She needs to rest that putting some fluids in her. They said she'll be fine. And that is literally how it felt until my little sister, um, called me that night. She goes, I don't think there's something wrong. I don't think something's right. I think she's really bad. And I called my aunt at two in the more I said, something's not right. You don't worry, she'll be fine. But she was worrying too. And then I went to work like normal the next morning and I um, text my little brother, how is she? I got it. Didn't you didn't pick up. And I went into work and it was a beautiful day and I sat at my desk and I did my work and then I suddenly saw about 11 o'clock, uh, coal coming from my aunt. Jada: 05:27 I ignored it. Call came in from my brother. I ignored it and I, I know now I ignored him purpose cause I didn't, I had, I had this sinking feeling that something was really bad and I wanted to live in a world where my mum was still okay. So I sat at my desk and worked for another hour before I left and called them and I called my brother cause I decided if I'm going to hear anything I want it to be from him. So it wasn't even a question of I would never have been time to get there in time. Even if she'd been living in the UK, she have, she wouldn't have been living in Bristol where I live. She would have been an appropriate hour away and I wouldn't have gone because to me she went into hospital because she was feeling a little bit weak and she'll be out the next day, don't worry. Jada: 06:08 Um, so that's why it was all the shock, but no, I didn't. So she died and then literally it was a whirlwind within one week. Um, we'd got our ticket to go. Um, and it was very expensive to go. So family sorted out. Got I say that there might my aunt and myself and we were at like salmon people who, my mom did some amazing things. She worked with, um, orphanages. She worked with you. Scott was her passion, but she had her own company as well and people loved her and the outpouring of grief was immense. There was radio shows on and she'd love Jazz, that jazz nights. Um, that was, um, that were, um, made in her honor. And we got that. And we went to literally several different evenings just for my mum, memorial evenings at other companies that you've worked with or touch done. Jada: 07:03 Um, the orphanages wanted to put on something. So we were literally thrown into this whirlwind of everyone grieving my mom and all I felt like saying was this was our mum. You think you're sad? This is our mum. You know, it was a weird situation. It was beautiful to see what people thought about her. But at the same time it felt like nothing was for us and everything was ever gonna have just like a funeral. I think you don't really in my anyway from me, you don't really start grieving till after the funeral property because it's such a whirlwind having to get things done, having to choose this, having to choose that they had an open casket, which I didn't want. It was all very much for on. And then everyone goes and that's when you suddenly have a bit of time to start thinking, wow, she's not here. Jada: 07:53 When I touched down in Nigeria, that was now a Nigeria for me, that wasn't the same. I'd even been contemplating moving there with my husband who's actually right British and um, suddenly it holds nothing for me anymore. I love my brother and sister mentally and I want them to leave. But I actually hate the country almost because of in my head it's what called my mother and turning up there. It just felt like a different place. She wasn't bashing met, met me every time. Arrived on this time. She wasn't bad to meet me and when we went into her house, she wasn't there in the house. Everything was there, but her, it was gritty. You radioed, Kat: 08:35 yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned that because people think I'm crazy when they're like, oh, you don't like your hometown? Like why not? I'm like, first of all, I never liked my hometown to begin with. It sucked, but I definitely don't like it now. Yeah. Because I have no reason to go. My Mom's not there. Like I literally have one friend from high school. Yeah, somewhat. That's just brings back terrible negative memories. I don't want to go there and just be depressed again, but yeah, that's it. Exactly. So I'm like people, yeah, why do you buy a bottle? I'm going to go there and drive past the scene of like my mom's car accident. Like, no, that's just no. I mean if plus the cope that way, that's fine, but I cannot handle that. So I'm glad that you mentioned that because I don't think I've met anyone. Um, Jada: 09:21 who feels that way. Yeah, it is strange cause everyone says doesn't give you comfort almost going back to, and it really doesn't. Um, and in fact of any thing when I was there, I just feel for my little brother and sister because my brother is still living in her house. How old house and I call him, I can just, it, it just wreaked, wreaked in the beginning of just sadness that and so I got them to change a lot and make it, try to make that more heads until he does move because I just felt he's ever, he's reminded of her in every corner when I, cause when I turned up, I just sat in her bedroom, I cried and sobbed on a bed. Yeah. That's smart. And I could smell her, you know, and it just, yeah, I don't, I could, I couldn't live in that house like that continuing. Kat: 10:11 Yeah. You bring up a good point. Like, especially as like one of those things, at least for me when I go back to my hometown, it's because like I'm choosing, there is a reason, you know, I'm not going back voluntarily just for shits and giggles, like ignore my French, but you know, like I'm not just going there to go, like, I'm going there because I want to have a visit with my mom or I'm just having a really sometimes like, and a lot of times when I'm grieving, I don't normally go there and I only live an hour and a half away from where it is right now. Um, so sometimes like if like that's just the way grief works, your grief is telling you, oh my God, you have to go back. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to go back. But most of them it's not grind. I think that's just because my mom was cremated, but still, um, yeah. I so let's see, your little brother still lives. Jada: 11:01 Let's see what Egypt said about cremation. That is a very sore subject for me because I know that my mum wants to be cremated, but no one listened to me. Oh, bless her heart or my aunt. And in the end we buried her and we had the open casket. Everything I just did not want, but I did it in the end just because I couldn't bear the arguing anymore. And Yeah, I realized, you know, at the end of the day, my mom's gone and I suddenly realized that for some people, like my little sister and my brother now says he likes having a place to go and you know what? My mum lived for them and if that makes them feel happier, if it gives them any measure of comfort, then that's what she would've wanted. So I let it go that she wanted her ashes scattered in the ocean. Jada: 11:56 Um, and what I did myself is I went to the ocean there and it was, that was when I had my, my, my send off to her and it felt so right. And I walked along the beach and my little boy held my hand and I threw her favor. Flowers into the ocean and I agreed the air and I shout at her name and that's when, that's when I felt okay, I've done what she wanted. I've done something, I feel connected to her. But the funeral was about in Nigeria and very few people get frustrated and so it was the thing that you do and everyone did it. Um, yeah. And the only thing I put my foot down on it as I didn't want everyone looking at her. So the only people that were allowed to see her family and her closest friends who needed to say their goodbyes, I really didn't need to say my goodbyes like that. Kat: 12:43 Yeah. Well to each their own at least you have that option, you know? I'm glad that you found that like little that you were able to, you know, do what you need to do because you know, at the same time that it's good for your brother and sister to find comfort is good for you to find comfort to everybody needs to find comfort in the situation. Whatever best fits. I mean like literally can't stress that enough. And going back to what you said when you were saying, when you were saying like, I didn't really start grieving until after funeral. I'm like, holy cow. I don't know if I started grieving until like a year into it, but I don't know if that, like, why do you think that you didn't start grieving until after the funeral? Do you think it was maybe your age, like your little boy kept you occupied so much? Jada: 13:30 Well, no. Well, I have, when it first happened, I found out, um, they, my friends literally got me home from work. I was almost broke down at work and my clothes spread into his come one of my closest now she held me in the back room of work and another one went and got my car. She called my husband and got him to get home and he works a few hours away. Holy Cow. She took me home. Yeah. So I mean, she took me home. She picked up my little boy when my husband came and gave us time alone and I just sobbed and sobbed. And then when we got that, it was just, you're surrounded by people, you know, so many people and also in Nigeria, everyone does this thing where they keep coming, keep coming with food and coming, turning up and everyone sleeps there and sleeps in your house. Jada: 14:21 You don't have to talk to them, but that they're just there for you. But there was so much preparation around my mom's funeral. We had to do it for so many people wanted to come. It was all about, you know, everyone trying to have that moment to just, you know, more than her. So when it then passes, then you can be still, then you can be silent. Then you can think. But I found it really hard to think and I still do with my little boy. So often I find that hard and sometimes I resent it because I didn't have a moment to think for myself. But at the same time, thank goodness he was there because he was literally this little ray of light and he was a thing that kept people going and stopped everyone from breaking. And I think something, you know, but a lot of people said children shouldn't be at funerals, but it's kind of, I, I thought it was just what we needed and my mom wanted him there. My mom would have anyway, I feel and adored him and he just gave that little bit of, I don't know, joy or love to I saw kind of thing and that just kind of made it a little bit more bearable what we were going through. Yeah. I mean it's all about like, Kat: 15:31 you know, people we can say what they think all they want even if they're experiencing the same walls. So it doesn't really matter. Like my matters is, are you doing what's best for you? And if you want to brand her son. Yeah. Jada: 15:42 Your son. Like so be it. Yeah. I was told not to at first and I said I'm not going without him. Kat: 15:49 It's nobody's choice except for yours. Yeah. Jada: 15:52 So that was Burt at the same time, I didn't happen in the actual service cause he's very high energy. I had someone take him out just as it started and play with him outside because I actually needed that moment. Yeah. To hold my brother and sister to say what we needed to say and just I did not want to be focused on him and I didn't want to be worrying about that right then. So that was how I kind of worked at. Kat: 16:16 Yeah. You know, rightfully so. Um, so you were the oldest? Yeah. Jada: 16:20 Yes. 16 years age gap. So yeah. Yeah. So my little sister was 21 when my mum died, my brother was 22 and then yeah, I was 38, so, okay. Yeah, gap between us. So it will say kind of, I felt like there was the responsibilities that too as the eldest and my mum put things in the world that were about me basically looking after them and always being there for them. So that was something else I had problems with. I was falling apart, but I couldn't always show that I was falling apart. Oh, I stout I couldn't. And seeing my little brother who's six foot five and huge, this huge boy heat in my arms. Jada: 17:10 It kept my heart just kept breaking. Um, seeing my little sister's telling me, you know, my mum will never be there to walk her down the aisle or see her children. It was, yeah. And then I thought I had to protect them, protect them from a lot of people, that one, understanding how they were grieving or understanding what they were going through. And there were a lot of people that came after the funeral and sun suddenly wanted us to sign this or sign that when my mom had been on a board of something and want to basically try and see what they could get from the children or children. My little brother and sister, they're adults, but it's just my mom and I would talk to my mom and I, our connection change to see as we go. Um, as I got older and um, we were friends, you know, and she talked to me about my little brother and sister and just complain or she'd say, oh, they're doing great or we discuss it together like adults together. Jada: 18:06 And so now I was in a situation where my mom wasn't there and it felt like she'd been preparing me for this day preparing me for when I would be the one that they could turn to and be the only one they talk to, especially my little brother because he only would talk to my mother and me growing up, any issues he had, we'd be on the phone to him at two in the morning, whether it was uni going wrong or he was trying to get some work done and he couldn't. And my mum would say, I'm so happy he has you besides me to talk to. And she'd always say that. And she also said, just let me see my children through. I just want to live long enough to see my children through. She said this for so much of her life, it almost felt like a premonition. Jada: 18:48 And so when it will happen, it just felt so strange. She knew in the final moments she was going to die because I think she told my little sister to go home that she was fine, but she was in such agony. Um, so yeah, there was a lot, a lot that was going on. It wasn't just Adecco is dating, whether it was also dealing with what was going to happen to my brother and sister if they were still going to live there. Suddenly you've got all the other extras that I didn't really think about her estate to settle business issue. We had to close down her business. We had to sack her staff because we couldn't. I tried to see if I could somehow keep it going for a few months, but there was so many things that we had to consider. So I felt like I was literally suddenly thrust in, made a director of a company with my little brother and sister having to sign checks to give people wages. And then literally a week or two later having to say that we couldn't keep the company going. So it felt like I might be classified as an adult, but I don't think I ever really became an adult until that day. Kat: 19:57 Yeah. You and I mean, sorry, I'm just letting that resonate with me for a minute. Uh, yeah. If you don't, if you aren't growing up in your mom passes, you are definitely grown up after. Yeah, that's for sure. Um, I don't care how old you are. Um, yeah. That's why I feel like, I feel like too, like with most people, the first few years are like so hard and especially the first year, obviously the first everything without your mom hard. Yeah. But it's like you feel so old, too much older than you actually are. And then when you realize like, wow, like I have a lot of life left, it'll live. It almost brings out like your inner like child per se. Yeah. And you're like, wow. Like I forgot what it was. Like the act my age or I forgot what it was like to be young or do like a fun young people things. Exactly, exactly. And it's a really weird, like feeling, you're like, I had to grow up for so long and like how people don't tell you that. I mean, you figure that out your own life, you know, so when you do figure it out, you're like, Oh God, Jada: 20:59 word. This is a shock to the system. It's such a shock to the system. Yeah. It is. No one prepares you for any of that. But also you're not preparing yourself sometimes when you know it's coming. And I'm not saying it's easy, but you're trying to prepare when your own mum hasn't thought of her while she seemed to not even properly think of her mortality recently. Um, the, she hadn't got anything in place. There wasn't even a new, well we could find except for one. She'd written 20 years ago when there was just me. So it was how we meant to have suddenly prepare that we are now thrust into this new normal that we weren't expecting at all. Um, yeah. And suddenly you, you are doing, you know, having to pull up your big pants, you know, and do major things, didn't make major decisions. Jada: 21:50 Um, from yeah, from matters of her estate to um, how you want to have berries or not and things that your friends and that's I've been through it. I haven't had to experience. So yes. And sometimes I think, excuse me, if I'm not feeling that the end of the world is because you couldn't get the right, I don't know what dress for the evening out. I sit there and I feel like I'm slightly sarcastic sometimes and I must be I Roma and I think as big a thing I said Simon, I hear myself saying it all the time and I see them like getting really annoyed with me, but I'm thinking I do not care about these little things anymore. I'm sorry. Wait till you get to experience a big things. Death is a challenger. Kat: 22:37 I feel like people think I'm crazy. I'm like, I'm not going to say I'm not as empathetic as I used to be, but you definitely don't sweat the small stuff that is fractured because of put your life into perspective. You're like, Jada: 22:52 yeah, I don't know. So empathy goes to I think actual proper things that there are two really empathize for real shit. Just bigger things. Um, oh my goodness. You didn't make a good pot roast. Oh it went, it wasn't great. And your guests, you know, didn't love it. Oh dear. I'm sorry. Kat: 23:15 Like if somebody told me like their fish got run over by a car, like just something crazy, I'd be like, you know that sounds super tragic, but I am so sorry. I have no idea how to empathize with you because like it's a fish. I mean I know people say the old adage like you can't compare losses, but my brain, like at least for me, some people who've lost their mom might be different. But at least for me, I'm like, my brain is not wired in that way. So I'm just going to be honest with you and I'm just going to tell you ahead of time that this is what I think basically. Right? Jada: 23:51 Yeah. That's it. And I have to do, I also have to take a step back and look at the, I'm behaving or reacting to certain things because of the fact that I'm still grieving and because of loss as well. I mean, the other day I had, um, I'm a bridesmaid and one of the bridesmaids basically was an in a bad bowel made because her child had kept her up. All right. So in mine, but she said she hasn't got time to do anything. And I just said, well, and I finally just had enough. Um, she's being really snarky. And I went, wow, I don't have time because right now I'm trying to still settle my mom's estate and I'm on the phone to lawyers ad we're writing letters and we're chasing the people that are trying to scam her and my brother and sister and me now out of her property. Jada: 24:38 So that's what my major concern is right now. So, sorry, I don't have time to take over and I could hear it in myself. You know, my, my, my tone when I was like writing, it was writing, typing away furiously. And I just suddenly thought, you know what, she won't understand. She can't understand. And yes, everyone is going through that own personal problems. So I've just got to take a step back sometimes and just not talk. That's how I decided to do. Now I just take a step back and I just leave it. I let it go because all it does is upset me more than it does them. Kat: 25:11 You're so right. Like people, what's the old saying? I'm like, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I'm like, literally, I have become such an introvert since my mom died. And I swear to you, this is why like a lot of times you'll catch me, you know, like you said, don't talk like that. Don't talk. It's like I have nothing at that. And if I don't have a head in to say, I'm not gonna say anything. Jada: 25:33 Yeah, that's it. My mom is telling me that all the time she had, she was just used to say, Jadah she has saved be. Um, she goes, just be kind. And I said, what do you mean I am? She goes, no, but be kind has an understanding that everybody, yeah, she goes, everybody is not perfect and they will make mistakes and they will hurt you and they will say things that are callous or, but she goes, you know, we're human. And that's what one of the things I keep trying to run. We're all human and people don't always know how to handle someone who's experienced a great loss. And I said, I look now back on some of the things how I handled it too. When people told me they lost someone and I felt I was pretty empathetic. But then I think officer a year, did I ask enough? Did I, did I ever wonder that when they were feeling looking down that it was actually still because yes, that grieving, I did it. I don't know if I did, you know? So I guess now being in that boat, I'd started turning to other people that are in the same boat as well, because I understand how hard it is to grasp what it is like unless you've been through it. Kat: 26:44 Yeah, absolutely. You're 100% right. It definitely leads to a lot of, I think like self reflection. Um, but let's see. So were you and your mom close? Like I know you mentioned you lived in different countries. How did that affect your relationship? Jada: 27:04 Um, wow. When I was younger, so, um, I was actually born in Washington DC. Um, my mom lived to America to go to uni, but then met my dad, dropped out and had me them. Ours didn't last, but we lived in the states for six years. Then when her father died, she moved back to Nigeria to help with the family business and instead of me following education, never was, oh, it's better and isn't necessarily but better in the UK. So I stayed there with my Nan and then yes, kind of ticked by. And when she is told me to come and live in Nigeria, I didn't want to, I was at the age where I was making friends. So when I was younger though, I was quite rebellious. Um, I had, I was quite angry towards her at times. I used to blame her for things. Jada: 27:54 Um, typical kind of like daughter and mom, sometimes relationship, volatile and fiery. And then as soon as I hit 20, literally both of us, we became best friends. And it wasn't a cliche, she said it to me once. I remember and I took, she called me and we can talk about anything. And that was the thing about my mum though. Um, and I found when she paused, the amount of people that said she was a mother to them when they had no mother or mother when they had them, but they didn't know how to connect with as she was one of these people that would listen to you. Um, and it didn't matter what she was going through, you wouldn't even know she was going through things if you were ever a whole, everything was for you. And man have, we were very close, really, really close. Jada: 28:39 Um, off of the 20s, we would just, we just came able to, I don't know, it just really get each other. She knew me inside and out. But, um, we talk weekly and sometimes it'd be several times a week, but we always told them when I had my little boy who's now too, um, I then turned to her for advice in a different way. So it's also very different when you're a mother losing a mum. It's strange because suddenly I'm motherliness and the person that I want to turn to for advice when my son is big, awful, oh, I'm having a hard day with him or I don't know if I'm doing the right job by him isn't here to discuss it with anymore. And I find that really hard. Um, and I don't know anymore who to call when I have these great moments in my life. Jada: 29:33 Um, it was always her and when I had the bad ones it was always her. I could call her anytime with an eye and she would get these you'd always need if a phone on in case it was me and even chasm. Layla, my little brother and sister, they went to uni in the UK for a while before they went back to Nigeria. And so they were secondary school and uni here and they would call. She said, if it's not one of you, it's the other one, one of them crawling over this one of them learning about this or me calling in the middle of the night cause I was having anxiety over a new job or something. But she was naturally that person. And now that when she went, I just didn't know what to do. And so my brother I found was suddenly calling me at two in the morning, a message and you up. Jada: 30:14 And I felt like I needed to always be up because that's what our mom did. Um, so that's what I found really hard. I've had some great things happening to me in the last few weeks. Um, from suddenly we look like we're going to finally get on the property ladder. We've just had a house that we've just been accepted for a house. All these great things have happened and yet this Po, that's the most significant person in my life who I've told everything to my mom, I can't. And so I'm happy yet all of its tenure with this sadness as well. And I think that's what people find hard to understand how I'm, I don't seem as happy as they expect me to be at this point in my life I guess cause I'm just, I just, I just miss her. Kat: 31:02 Yeah, it's, that's a really hard like phenomenon. I notice. I mean I know you're not the only one who struggles with like, you know, wanting to call your mom, you know, and the good times and bad and there's like the song, it's like a country song that I know of. 'Em is called like Dad's old number and it's like in the song the guy is talking about like he's so because his dad's old number, even though his dad's deceased and I think about that and I'm like, you know, I'd never do that. And for some reason, like right when my mom passed, I deleted her number out of my phone and I don't know why. I guess it's just because like I know that somebody else is going to get her number. So like it wouldn't be her talking over the voicemail. So I don't know if it just the thought in my head made it seem like I'm not actually calling her. Um, Jada: 31:59 I always wondered about that when people said that they tried to call, they've got, and it happened to the first time a few months ago where I went, oh, let me quickly, cool. I've never had that. I was, and I stopped and I was in the car and I literally had to pull over. I thought, what was I just about? I go, I was going, I actually forgot, I forgot for two sweet, amazing seconds that she wasn't here when I was about to call her. But the thing about deleting the number, I haven't done it. Um, but I have a phone and I have to have a phones. And one of my relatives, I know tex her still seven months old, he's still texting her. Um, I get, I only know this because occasionally I've opened the phone because I have had to go into it for, um, matters to do with her estate. Jada: 32:50 But I purposely do not go into what's apps or have messages, but it flashes up that you've got so many, and I can see the first line sometimes come up and I quickly don't look because it's heartbreaking. Yeah. And in the first three weeks after she died, I had her photo open and I saw the first line that was for my, from my brother saying, are you there mom? And I just, my heart just, I just, yeah. Sometimes I think the pain's worse looking at other people's pain, looking at my little brothers pain, my little sister's paid, um, and my aunts, that really gets to me. I just see it in their face, in the eyes and suddenly you're forgetting your own for a minute. And I realize that that's what I must look like when I'm crumbling. You know what I'm having a hard day. Kat: 33:42 Yeah. You bring up a good point and I think I've had a to how you were saying, you know, like you, your mom was the person that you always told things too with the, they were good or bad and I can totally relate to that, but, and I don't know if it's just me, but like I'm in this mindset now that like I know I can't tell my mom, so I don't really want to tell anybody else. And I don't know if that's just, you know, grief, if that is reflecting the stage that I'm in in my grief, but like I just kind of keep these things to myself now and I'm okay with that. So have you noticed it's like, yeah, you're like, if I can't tell my mom, I don't want to tell anybody. Like, have you gone send me to, is it just made it, Jada: 34:28 no, no. There's an element of it, but it's slightly different. I think the way that I approach it, what happens is, for example, when we literally, we got the go ahead about the house yesterday I called my aunt and I, and she didn't pick up and I called and called and called like a leader in tech because I needed to tell someone and I knew I couldn't tell my mom, so I thought this, I've got to do this otherwise what is this? You know? And so I spoke to her and I was so happy to speak to her. She made me feel so great about it. But then there was just that whole life feeling after and I knew why because I really wanted to tell my mom and it wasn't her. And that was really hard. And then also I've been slightly mean with it as well. Jada: 35:16 Like with my husband. I remember saying to him before, I don't know why I'm bothering telling you anyway. Not that it matters what you think, you know, I wouldn't my mom live here, you know, have you have sounds like, you know, I was just like, you know, my mom would understand you don't get it. Or I'd say, well she kind of gets where I'm going with going through. He just, you just don't get it at all. You don't, you're not getting it right or you don't know the right thing to say. And I know I've said it quite a few times, things like that, it's like lashing out because I'm angry and I'm not really angry at him and I'm just angry at the universe that she isn't the one that talked to you about this. Kat: 35:54 God, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Angry at the universe. I'm like, thank you people. But I noticed too, like it's harder, like if it's something super super like a big and good that you want to share, but like I noticed that when I have a bad day, the Ashwin like shit just hits the fan and my grief is just like a slap in the face and I'm like, oh my God. Like, I want to crawl under a rock. So do you feel that way? Jada: 36:19 Yeah, no, it's really hard. Um, there's some times I've literally had the worst and I remember saying, just give me a break. And even asking her, holding up the hose, mum, you listening to you that I don't know how this works, but just give me a break, you know, like, this is just awful. And I've had these days and she was the one that would, she was kind of like my, um, comm person. She was also the person that would balance me out and even me out because I would, yeah, some of them are actions were really, yeah, I needed telling sometimes. And my mom was one of those moms wasn't that, didn't just do love you and say you were right. She would tell you, you are totally out of order, still love you, but you out of order. And I needed that and I missed it. Jada: 37:08 So I now find myself having to now talk in her voice to myself to try and say, what would she be saying now? You know what she would be saying now? Jadah so don't try and you know, take the other park cause she's not here to tell you it's wrong. But yeah, it's the bad days. It's hard. Um, the other day I was, I couldn't wait. I, I tell him my husband just take the baby out and just go for a walk cause I actually just want to have good old cry. I made some dinner and I'm, I love cooking, I'm pretty good kick. And she used to always watch what I cooked. I'm on Instagram and things like that and she'd call me or what he cooking. We chat as I cooked. So I put, had a glass of wine, I put on her favorite music and I blasted it and I cook and I sobbed and I was crying and I was cooking. Yeah. It wasn't like, it felt like a release and it also just felt good to acknowledge that that is something I missed. I miss talking to her while I cook. I missed chatting to her about silly things in my day. You know, I miss having a bitch session with her about things. Yeah. But it's like I think I've said before and one of my posts I said, I don't actually end the other people have their moms because it's not my mum. You know, I just miss not having her. Kat: 38:30 Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. And I think too, it religious depends on what would be the reasoning behind talking to our mom. Like whether you want somebody to listen or whether you want advice. Like when I wanted bice, I definitely don't talk to anybody else because I would literally only wanted advice from my mom. But I think when it comes time to just like wanting somebody to listen, I think that's when people would be more apt in, you know, more willing to reach out to somebody, maybe their mom's friend or something like that. So how, like what do you think about that? Wow. Jada: 39:05 I have actually often she died a lot of my mom's friends who I'd never really talked to or want to connect. Um, and they reached out to all her children and occasionally they messaged me and, but I'll be honest with you, it's almost harder because I'm dealing with that grief as well. So what I don't, I almost want this nurturing Faegre someone that's there kind of what I want. So my mom, someone who's at unconditionally and it's about me, it sounds selfish, but that's always what I'm looking for. And talking to her friends, I just don't, I actually sometimes steer clear of it. It just, it, I can't, sometimes I just call it just hurts too much. And recently, um, some of her, she used to like to listen to, um, a lot of jazz on those as um, Facebook group she was a member of and they are doing like a tribute night for her here in the UK and they're having their 10th year anniversary and all of that. Jada: 40:09 And they invited me and invited my aunt and I just said, I can't do it. The idea of walking around, talking to people and them all saying sorry again and having to put on a face or then watching my face to see if I'm sad or see it, see how I'm doing. I just caught and then they got a bit upset because they said, oh well we have a plaque to handle the, and I suddenly realized again, who is this about? Is this about how I'm feeling or is this about you guys now doing what you think help yourselves? And yeah, no, I have to be in the right frame of mind and sometimes I actually hide from people that wanted to connect because of my mom. I find it really hard. It depends where I'm at because every day is different with me. Kat: 40:55 Yeah, you're right. I mean every day is different in general. That should the grief. Um, but how do you like cope with, you know, not having your mom to talk to just about anything? Is there one specific way or one specific thing that you do? Jada: 41:11 No, I don't really do coping. There's not, I don't feel I'm coping with that. I mean it's just, it is what it is. She's not there. Um, and some days are harder than others. What I've found, that's why I turned to doing the Instagram page and the podcast was that I could either be consumed by it, um, which icon that myself, I call it that happen to myself because of my little boy especially, um, which for which I have to pull on this fake face sometimes when literally I'm dying inside. Um, so I started talking to people and I'm writing things on the Instagram page and it just was a form of release and I used to just talk out aloud sometimes I find in the call to her. And so I realized, okay, talking is something that actually makes me feel better. Also talking about her two random people to strangers make me feel better cause I feel like they need to know what amazing person this woman was, a thing she did. Jada: 42:20 She hardly ever had lots of money because she was always giving to everybody from the kids to organizations to other people. And what's helped me, I guess if there was anything, was just being able to spread word about her and also being able to speak to others. And when I've realized that just one little word that I've said that resonates with them has made them feel a little bit better that day. It just, I don't know, it just, it's had quite a profound effect on me and that's, that's been something that helps when I realized I can't talk to her right now. I turn to something else. I turned to talking to others about grief, um, and it suddenly, I don't know. It's not, it's manageable. I'm managing it better. Yeah. Kat: 43:12 Yeah. That's all that matters. I mean, it's crazy. It goes a show. Like even though we had this idea in the world that people are not comfortable about talking about grief, when you start talking, you realize that hey, there's people out there in this world who are okay talking about grief and yeah, who are willing to talk about it with you. And you're like, oh my God. Like this is crazy. But I love how you mentioned that you were like, you know, there's not one way that I really cope with not having my mom to talk to you because it is what it is. And I think that in itself is a coping mechanism. And I say that because it's important to realize that like it is what it is because I mean don't get me wrong, like denial is a stage of grief, but like eventually the more you keep trying to call your mom, I don't personally think that's the best idea and somebody's grief like ad if that's how they choose to grieve and great, but I've never found that, you know, the six years I've lost my mom that like that actually helped somebody, you know, in the long run. Kat: 44:20 So that was the way, like that is a grief process. Like that is a way of grouping is realizing that like I can't do this. Like that's a way of like coming to a certain realization and then realizing, hey, if I can't talk to my mom about this, what's another way that I can either talk to somebody about whatever I want to talk to my mom too, or just talk in general. And sometimes I just catch myself saying things out loud. Like if I want to call my mom about what happened this day, like I'll be in my kitchen, home alone or whatever, and I'll just say it out loud. And it's not that like I feel like I'm talking to my mom, but just saying it out loud. I mean it kind of Sorta does feel like I'm talking to her. Does that make sense? I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy. Jada: 45:08 Yeah, it does. Yeah. I tend to get at, it's like when I was in the kitchen, just cooking with the music and everything and you know, I just felt, I wasn't saying anything, but it just felt like something I do with her and that's why I just wanted to have that moment in time. Kat: 45:24 Yeah, I think that's, you know, plenty good enough. Whether it's is expressing whatever it is that you wanted to express to your mom, regardless of how you know, you express that. And I think that's just very important because you've got to get off your chest somehow. That can't, it's just like holding emotions in. Like that's exactly what it would be. Jada: 45:49 And I think that's what's very odd, um, when sometimes I just don't know where to put it. And that's, I've heard, I don't know how to put that need, the longing, the pain, just missing her. And um, when I can find an outlet that helps, just like when I was doing the cooking, um, cause I love it, you know, that I actually couldn't cook for a few months off to, and I loved cooking because the pleasure just went completely went from it all. And it was just, I just felt funny about it. I couldn't post pictures, something everyone used to take the Mickey out of a laugh at me for all the pictures I take. Oh, you, she takes so many pictures, which I'm so grateful for now because they, all of them have so many pictures of my mom that 70 pictures of memories, I think it's such an important thing. Jada: 46:42 But after I couldn't take pictures, I couldn't post a picture, I couldn't take a picture. Um, and now I'm turning to the things I loved and lost again. So a bit of writing for myself and it's not about just general. Um, and um, yeah, taking pictures, um, eating good food and enjoying it. And then there was also like, um, just doing some odd again on something I hadn't done for years, but I suddenly found it was such a good outlet. And in my office I could see my pain, but I could also see the joy of the fact that I had a mother, a mother that was a wonderful mother and thank God I had her for the amount of time that I had to rather than not at all. Some people, something my sister said, some people, um, have that mother for lifetime and have no connection and no love is lost there. Um, and yet the time that we've had her on the type of mother she was and what she meant to us that finished everything. Kat: 47:50 Yeah. I like the, you mentioned that. I mean there's this old saying too, it's like grief is the price we pay for love, but it is literally so true. I'm like, yeah, you, if you didn't greet this person, you didn't love them. Yeah. Which sucks. But I mean I'd rather love and grieve then not love and not greed because what's a life without love. Jada: 48:11 Exactly. You know, something I actually said something like this, cause I also turned to looking at, um, a lot of Facebook pages that were about from people that lost. And I joined the a few groups and I'm posting saying if, I don't know if you've ever seen the film, I'm a real big maybe how like I don't know if you ever saw the film, um, that was basically called arrival and um, it's about, um, you find out that the aliens live in a way where they can see the whole of their life mapped out because they're very linear from the back. And the front, the front and the back so they could, they're living and knowing what the ending is even as our living. And the question is really, would you live life knowing the pain that there isn't. It would you still want to have your mother when you know the pain you're going to have when she dies? Jada: 49:06 And the thing is, as much pain as I was in when she died, there is absolutely no way that I don't do not wish that she was in my life. And that's how it is, I think, um, is bitter sweet as it is, is I think that's, that's the whole thing about life and love and living. Either you can stay in a cardboard box and not leave and try and not get hurt by it, you know? Or you just have to kind of push yourself and get out there and we're always going to end up losing people. It's the way it is. I mean, yeah, that does a part of life and yeah, it's just unfortunately a bitter pill to swallow sometimes. Kat: 49:46 Very much so. But yeah, I mean like you said, like wouldn't trade loving my mom for the world. So yeah. Well, is there anything else that you would like to leave with the listeners? Just about grief or anything really? Jada: 50:02 My, I think the biggest thing that I've found is um, connecting and just making connections and not being scared to reach out to people. Um, one thing I think that, I wouldn't say a positive, but I guess it is that I've found in this because I've met some really amazing people and I'll never forget, for example, might literally getting on that flight to go to Nigeria to a new world basically without my mom in it. And um, they were questioning me at the, um, security like, oh, I'm not sure about the visa that you've got because I had to get a quick visa because we were literally leaving suddenly for her funeral. And I just sat there and I looked dazed and I really couldn't be bothered with that questions. And I said, sorry, I'm, yeah, I know it seems weird. Just go and check it with your supervisor. Jada: 50:55 It's cause my mother died. We had to get a quick these Sanchez whole face, soften the lady there. And she goes, when did she die? I said, it's just happened a week ago and I'm just really angry. And I started talking to her as if she would, I knew her and she said to me, you know what? My Dad died two years ago too. And Trust me, it doesn't get easier. She goes, I'm still angry. And what was amazing is this woman I've never met again. I, you know, I'd never met before. We both looked at each other in that crowded apple. And we made that connection and the tears in her eyes and in mine. And we understood each other. And Yeah, little beautiful moments. And I've been finding a lot of those. And I think what's great is that us so many people out there that are just willing to open up. And I think it's all about, that's what humanity is about. And I think in the world that we live in, with all the scary things that are going down all over the world, it's just great that we can still connect with each other. And find that empathy and also just help the next person up. They just don't, I'd say do that. Even if you're feeling and the darkest place sometimes turn and try and find someone else who's in that dark place too because it really can help when you help somebody else. Kat: 52:15 Yeah. It, yeah. Especially if you know that they're going through like something similar that you're going through and like you're able to help them. You're like, wow, it helps me. Yeah. To help them. Um, essentially. Yeah. Well I don't really like that the lady said it doesn't get any easier cause I disagree with that, but that's a conversation for another day. Um, yeah, it's very important to find like you realize how life, like how beautiful it is and you make these connections with people and all of a sudden it's like, it's like this unsaid understanding almost that like you both have lost a parent and like you can just, you're just there. You know? I can't explain it how much I could, Jada: 53:01 no, I get it. I understand. But you know, it's interesting. I, you see that's where you and most of my friends that have lost a parent say the same thing. It gets easier. I don't think it does. I finding I'm, it's actually getting harder but maybe that's in the, because I'm seven months in. Um, but I also feel that there's going to be a point where I won't be reacting the same way, but I feel that it's just something I'll learn to live with. That's in my kind of experience so far. I feel that it will always be hard, but I will, I will learn how to live with it better. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Kat: 53:38 Seven months in after you get over the first year. Yeah. You're pretty much golden because the first year, 100%. I definitely think of the worst. Um, but, and I'll just throw this little snippet in there. It gets easier in the sense of like living without your mom doesn't get easier. Like the loss itself. No, but the grief gets easier to manage. Yeah. And like your new non living, your new normal without your mom gets it easier in that sense. Like because you just learn how to deal with it. I mean, yeah, that's just kind of the nature of the beast. Unless you don't learn and then it doesn't get easier, but eventually it will somehow some way, but I mean that doesn't mean you don't have hard day is I think people think that like, oh, like you're in the best place you've been in six years. Does that mean like you're not, you don't have bad days? I'm like, yeah, Jada: 54:31 oh no, I definitely have bad days. Like that's not how this works. I was like, yeah, if I gave you that idea, I think that's also seminal moments in your life. There's stages and each stage that comes along you then again think I really want my mum now. I really want my number though. Like I'm thinking I want another child next year. I want to try again, and I was thinking, oh my gosh, my mom will never have met this child. Yeah. Oh my God, how am I going to go through that whole period of being pregnant like I did before without her to talk to say, yeah, I think that's all different stages and like my little sister sister said, how's she going to feel on her wedding day? And so I think yeah, Kat: 55:15 and people talk about like the stages of grief and I'm like, they act like there's four stages. I'm like, but it's a continual like pattern. It's not like, okay, you're grieving for the rest of your life. It's not like for this amount of time you're in this stage and then you only go through each stage once. Like, no, that's not how that works. At least Jada: 55:35 I don't think so. Somebody else might think differently, but whatever. No, I agree. I'm like, this is just like a never ending cycle. People like, yeah, it's still watching me to see whether I better Kat: 55:47 and the, that's just the way that I think of it. When I think of something in stages, I think of it like, I think of like the stages of your life. Well, you have like newborn, toddler, whatever. Eventually those stages end and eventually like life ends. And that's just the way that I think of stages. So yeah, I just don't really agree with that, but, Jada: 56:06 but you know, something that's weird about that I have ran, but as everyone knows in my family, friends and family, I don't like change. So I was even scared and worried about changing nurseries and from my little boy and I, it and I suddenly realized it wasn't always worried about it as much for him. It was a tug for me leaving behind the tie, you know, all his, um, nursery, um, teachers that, and starting a new place and I've realized I don't like change at his death was literally going to always be, you know, something bear on top, on the agenda. And I just did not think about it. I put it right to the back of my mind. So I think when it happened I was like, how is this happening? How is this happening to me? This shouldn't be happening to me. But it happens to us all just, and that's the other thing, we just don't know when. So while we can, that's why it's best to try to kind of live and love and enjoy. So even with this grave, I'm trying to find real good moments every day and cherish them. Yup. To film while you're gonna make it through. Speaker 3: 57:25 For sure. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Jada: 57:28 I'm so glad to have you and we finally work out a time. Thanks for having me. Speaker 3: 57:34 You're listening to license or losing mob with me, cap honor. On this podcast, you'll hear from other women who have lost their mom and discovered the exact coping strategies you need to get through the day and being the best place you've ever been. Don't miss another episode of life after losing mom. Subscribe today. More information can be found@caponour.com forward slash podcast and if you'd like to join a group of likeminded women had to Facebook and search for the life after losing mom community Speaker 4: 58:02 [inaudible] Speaker 3: 58:21 [inaudible] this has been an OutsourceYourPodcast.com production. Yeah.

On this episode of Life After Losing Mom With Kat Bonner, our guest is Tashina Fritz, the founder of FIT4MOM Lanier. A mother to three girls, Tashina lost her mother three years ago, and talks to us about the past 3 years of discovering who she is, how she handles the grieving process, and the effort - and sometimes joy - of keeping moving. Topics Discussed: The challenges of being a mother to young girls while coping with your own bereavement How do you keep the memories of your loved one alive without them overwhelming you? What happens when your mom has an identical twin? The relief of finding a community of people who have experienced a similar loss How to regain your sense of purpose and meaning when things feel bleak and hopeless How a community of moms can help you find support and help The process of grief and how you can use it to honor the memory of your loved person by not fighting it We know that grief is a personal and specific experience with its own steps and its own processes. There is a huge community of women who are experiencing similar feelings of loss and uncertainty - and this is the place where you can find support and help. Not only is it important for you to practice self-care and healing for yourself, but to allow you to be present for your family, and part of this world. Surviving carries its own burdens, and grief is never easy, but thriving is the perfect way to keep the memory of your mother alive. Links Mentioned: Follow Tashina: Website Tashina on Instagram Fit4Mom On Instagram Tashina on Facebook FIT4MOM Lanier on Facebook Follow Kat: Visit The Website Subscribe to the Podcast Join The Life After Losing Mom Facebook Community Like On Facebook Follow On Instagram Transcript Tashina Fritz: 00:00 It was, it was, it was trying to gain that identity that hey, you are still worth pursuing. You are still worth being a mom to your kids. You are still have value with what you have to say to others. Even within the depth of that grief, Kat Bonner: 00:20 you're listening to life after losing mom with me. Kat Bonner. On this podcast, you'll hear from other women who have lost their mom and discovered the exact coping strategies you need to get through the day and being the best place you've ever been. Don't miss another episode of life after losing mom. Subscribe today. More information can be found at katbonner.com/podcast and if you'd like to join a group of likeminded women had to Facebook and search for the life after losing mom community. New Speaker: 00:48 Hello. Tashina. How are you going? Well good, thank you. Well, I know briefly a little bit about, um, what you do. Um, but we will get to that at the end of the show. So I just wanted to thank you for being here, Tashina Fritz: 01:11 right. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk a little bit about my journey with, you know, having to deal with the loss of my mother. Um, at an age I was 30 when she passed and how, and I have three kids and I, my youngest was eight weeks old when she passed and, and how to come to terms that, hey, she won't be there for my kids. She won't be grandma any warships be a distant memory as well as how to navigate grief for myself and my girls. That was a, a big challenge. And so I just, three years, fast forward, it will be three years, June 24th. So I'm coming up on that anniversary in a couple of weeks and it's been a long road. It's been a lot of tears, but also a lot of joy and having to navigate through grief counseling and what I do with fit from them, the near and being able to pour into other moms. I'll talk about that later. But um, it's been, it's been an okay road and I'm surviving. I take it one day at a time and we just see how it goes. Kat Bonner: 02:34 Wonderful. Thank you for sharing. I love how you're saying take it one day at a time because that's so important in grief and well just life in general, but especially with grief and wow. Yeah, eight weeks when your youngest one was eight weeks. So it was, it was a little emotional. It's just, yeah, that's, so you have three girls too? Tashina Fritz: 02:57 Do I have three girls there? Kat Bonner: 02:58 Oh Wow. So it's like a Speaker 3: 03:00 double whammy. It's like, okay, like you're a girl who like lost her mom and I mean, I hate to think that that's different than like men, but three girls. It's like you have that relationship with them that you had with your mom, so you're like, oh crud. Not having it. It's, it's, it's challenging because you know too, you see on Facebook are our biggest demise. But we see, you know, other girls with their moms and you know, grandma time and talking about generations and you're like, oh, this is tough because my kids won't have that. My, my oldest was four when my mom passed and my middle was too. And they, my oldest, of course, she had a really good relationship with my mom and so she remembers her in my, my middle does a bit as well. Um, she, she kind of has a really good memory surprisingly in that, so she's got some great memories of grandma. Speaker 3: 04:00 Um, my youngest though, she has no idea. And one thing that was cool about my mom, my mom was an identical twin. And so my aunt lives very close by to us and she looks exactly like grandma. Um, and so my girls have been blessed with having a backup grandma to say the least. Um, but my youngest, she's like, she doesn't understand. They're like, oh, I'll have pictures of my mom and my aunt. And she's just like, well that's, that's aunt die. And you're like, well, no, that's grandma and aunt die. She's just like, no, it's not. And so trying to, trying to explain to her and keep my mom's memory alive. I know she'll, she's only three and she'll understand it eventually. But, um, trying to, to talk about grandma with her. She's just like, no, mom, I don't, this is aunt grandma. This is aunt die, but my older girls are like, no, Evelyn, this is grandma. So we have it. We have a lot of those conversations in our house, which you brings, brings a lot of laughter with it cause it is just like kind of a silly situation to have. Um, but a very unique situation as well. Kat Bonner: 05:16 I love that. That's, I'm sure you know as you're younger one gets older, she'll understand more, but like having them close by. I can't imagine. I mean I get confused anyways when there's two of them, saint and clean bus side by side. So, oh my gosh. I, I wonder if there are anything alike. Speaker 3: 05:33 Yeah, they're my, my mom and my aunt. They're very much alive. Kat Bonner: 05:40 Oh well I also say, how do you feel about that? Is that weird? Speaker 3: 05:44 Yeah, it's, it's kind of a mixed bag of emotions and just like kind of how grief is like, yeah, my mom died of breast cancer and so I always tell people about it, you know, they're like, don't you wish she was here? And you're like, well of course I would need her Tashina Fritz: 05:58 here pre breast cancer. Like, I do not want her back the way that she was just cause cancer is awful, awful cancer thing. And um, it's the same with mine. Speaker 3: 06:09 Yeah. Like I am so thankful that I have her because I get a glimpse of my mom with her and as well as to like, I can still at least ask her questions like, do you remember this when I was little, you know, cause those memories start to fade. Like Tashina Fritz: 06:23 what? You know, what happened? My mom was a child, especially with my girls asking these wars, mommy, did you do that as a kid? And you're like, mmm, Speaker 3: 06:30 maybe I did. And so I do have that with my aunt to be able to talk about it. But then I also have a person that's walking around that looks exactly, Tashina Fritz: 06:39 we like my mom and she's not. And that also makes it difficult as well because you, it's all, it's a reminder that you don't have your mom. And so it's, you know, the same way that grief is where it's just that mix bag of, um, I'm very thankful for it, but it's also tough at the same time. Kat Bonner: 07:00 Yeah, absolutely. I don't know how I would feel if somebody was walking around that look like my mom that was not my mom. I feel like, yeah, you would probably never get Speaker 3: 07:10 used to that. It's definitely weird. I'll have to send you a picture because they, I mean, they do look a lot of likely a lot of pictures from when they were little girls. My mom and my aunt, like we can't even tell where, like, I don't even know who was, who say look so much alike. So it is definitely, it's, it's different. Kat Bonner: 07:32 I mean, that's funny. I guess like identical quint, I'd, uh, identical twins Tashina Fritz: 07:37 are Kat Bonner: 07:38 identical, but you don't really think about this thing until you're in the situation. You're like, oh my goodness, what in the world? Speaker 3: 07:47 I know. I remember I was, I'm on a motherless daughters site, um, on Facebook, which is super helpful because, you know, I always encourage people when I, oh, I talked to other people that have gone through loss with their mom and I'm like, you need to get on something because it's like that strange comfort that you get from hearing other people with the same loss. Like it's just, I don't know if it's like a misery loves company or in, but you know, you just get a lot of comfort from the fact that other people have lost their moms too. And, and, and seeing that, hey, they're actually making it and they're, they're surviving. So I can too. And, um, I remember that one day I just posted and I was like, has anybody, you know, have their mom as a twin and in these sites? I mean, they have thousands of, of people in it. And, and you know, everybody was just like, no, like, no, I don't have that problem. I'm like, okay. Kat Bonner: 08:42 I know I'm not alone, but like from this site, I was like, oh, okay. Oh, well, this is awkward, Speaker 3: 08:50 Walt Lott. No, Kat Bonner: 08:53 that's funny. Yeah. I, I mean it's always nice to have somebody who understands your loss, whether it will, I wouldn't say somebody who understands, I would say people have been through the same loss because there, those are two different things. So if that is found on Facebook, if that is found through meetup, if that is found in target, you know, whatever it's found, it's there, you know, it doesn't matter regardless, it's very much so needed. Um, it seems like your mom pass like, right when, like she was a grandma. I mean, obviously she had been at grandma for four years, but like if you don't plan on having any more kids, it's like, yeah, right after, you know, like your last kid was born, you know, so, and obviously like we always need our moms, but I feel like you really needed her when your last kid was born. It's like really, really? Does it have to be now? Speaker 3: 09:55 Yes, exactly. That was, it was, it was challenging. Not only, you know, two, I had just had a baby, so my hormones are going crazy. I just didn't know. But yeah, you know, you're just like, wait, like my mom always, my mom was just very intentional with her time and family. It was just always so important. So like with my older two girls, she took several weeks. She always took like a maternity leave and would come and stay with us and just help us with like, you know, just everything, you know with your mom. It's like you don't even have to ask. They just do, you know, they, they cleaned the house. They do, you know, just it just, it all comes second nature. And um, with my youngest, with Evelyn, it was, it was tough cause you're just like, here I have this eight legal here, we're planning a few role, I'm navigating grief and the loss of mom and, and you know the whole families who's broken. Speaker 3: 10:52 And it's, it was, it was tough cause you're just like, how do you keep going on? Because you have to, cause you have the, especially in eight week goal, if you'd like, depends entirely on mommy, but also just grieve. And that was, it was, it was tough. It was a lot of dark times, let's just say that, um, that, that occurred because it, it just, you're like, Whoa, I, I, you know, this is tough. Like how, how do you keep going with these things? And, um, an d so that's kind of when I went ahead and started fit for mom linear. Um, we, we're originally from Phoenix, Arizona is where I had my first two girls and we moved to Georgia to be with my mom where, um, my parents live and, and um, I was planning on starting a fit from home. It's a franchise I had. Speaker 3: 11:50 I actually had my, my contract to my franchise that day that my mom passed. And so of course I didn't sign that day because that was not going to happen. But I want ahead and four weeks later signed that contract and opened up shop. And I think a lot of people might look at me, it's like, wow, that is crazy. Why would you start a business, you know, four weeks of, you know, having your mom passed. But I, it gave me so much purpose and something to do and pour into and just like a direction to go. Um, and so I did it. It's crazy as it was and went head first into it. Kat Bonner: 12:35 Yeah, that's so important. I, I mean there's no, you know, timeframe for anything. It really just depends. But I mean, you have to have, like, especially when you're reading, you have to have something to motivate you and that keeps you going and like a reason behind dealing with all of this. I mean, like you said, like you literally have to have a purpose and you know, whatever that is for you is whatever that is. So it's so funny that you, I was up at the asking did you start fit for mom, you know, after your mom passed. But I mean, it's so funny to look at, you know, how the timing works out. Um, I feel like a lot of women in our situation probably struggle with finding purpose. And when you, at least for me, like when you don't find purpose, you really start to like lose sight of certain things, like lose sight of who you are. It's like, why am I doing this? Like, am I like, I don't know this person. Like I'm just crying all the time or you know, that sort of thing in grief can I think because the grief is so like, um, individualized that it's easy to lose sight of who you are as an individual without that purpose. So do you think that fit for mom help to you, you know, rediscover your identity through grieving or you know, what helped you, you know, figure out who this new person was? Speaker 3: 14:20 Yeah, I think it definitely played a huge role. So I mean I'll explain it fit four mom, linear. Basically what it is is where a workout program for Moms, we work out with our kiddos and we have some classes where we don't, but it is solely moms that work out together. And, you know, I just kind of came to a turning point. I did it, um, in Arizona where we're from. I was an instructor and I did from when my oldest, who's seven now, she was nine weeks old is when I found it and it gave me so purpose as a mom, Tashina Fritz: 14:52 um, free moving out here and free owning one is a franchise. And you know, cause you know, as moms just being a mom, you have all the questions with these Speaker 3: 15:03 brand new babies and you're just like, you always feel like you're failing and everything and um, it's just tough. It's just tough being. And um, and so it was a true blessing Tashina Fritz: 15:12 seem to me in navigating how to be a mom. Um, when my mom lived in Georgia and I was across the country, um, to have those ladies to lean on. And so when I decided to start it out here, I knew that one, the sole reason that I started it was for other moms to be around me and pour into me and threw it. I pour into mom's like crazy. I mean that's, that's also why I started it, but at the time I needed some moms to rally around me and, and be like, hey, you're doing okay. You can do this. You got this. Um, and in that was huge just with pulling me out of the depths of grief and allowing me to just start the healing process. Um, and I also big purpose through it was I had a great mom. My mom was awesome. She was unbelievably wise. She, like we always cracked up because she never knew a stranger. Like people would like, she just sit down and talk to him and people would like share their life story with her. And she just had this cool, um, knack with her that, um, just really minister to people and in, I have a bit of that too, you know, and I had to kind of Tashina Fritz: 16:38 put on my big girl panties and be like, you know what, what's a great way to honor my mom? It's by doing what she did in a lot of ways, important to other people. And so I was able to really just say, you know, I had a great mom, I was taught to be a really good mom, now I'm going to go help other mothers do the same. And it's, it does. It gives you that sense of identity and that purpose of like, you know what, hey, we're all going to be okay. Speaker 3: 17:10 Now that doesn't mean I'm perfect by any means. You can add a lot of my clients, you know they're there. We have good days and we have bad days, but Tashina Fritz: 17:18 the one true thing that we fall back on is that we are here to embetter one another's lives and to lift one another up and carry them through. Because when you go into even just mothers, a group of mothers, all of them carry some sort of grief. A lot of it's from losing their own children through miscarriage or various things are good. Bit of them even have lost parents and, and how I've going through what I did with my mom has been able to really open up the floodgates with other moms and just being like, I get your grief. I get, I'll get the death of that sorrow. And you know what? We can just keep moving forward, but it's still there. That whole will always still be there. But that doesn't mean that you have to shut down and stuff life. That means that you get to take that hole and you can protect it as much as he need that you're going to keep that growth all around that whole just building up and building up so that you still will be able to flourish. And um, that's where, that's where your fit from us. We come that purpose for me to be able to do that for other moms as well as myself and kind of in that practice, Speaker 3: 18:38 just what you preach. Like, so if I'm telling this to other moms, will I better be doing it too? We'll leave, you know, at my own stuff. And so, um, Tashina Fritz: 18:46 that's what, where I did find my identity with it. Kat Bonner: 18:50 Yeah. I love that. It almost seems like, you know, you were trying to not necessarily find your purpose, but like, okay, sorry, that sounds really bad, but, um, seems like that was a way that you've found your community. You know, like even if there weren't a whole ton of moms in there who had lost a mom, nonetheless, you still were around women who could just relate because that's the way that those women were. And that's the way that their mindset was. So do you think that you were struggling to find your identity as a person or in a struggling to find your identity as a mom? Tashina Fritz: 19:41 I think Holly more as a person. Well, I'm, Speaker 3: 19:47 you know, I was, I was very blessed in the fact that I really, my mom was Tashina Fritz: 19:52 one of the first losses I've had to deal with and, um, Speaker 3: 19:57 which is amazing, but also very tough because it was a tough loss. Did you, like when you, it's one of your first ones and, and Tashina Fritz: 20:06 I, uh, it was, it was, it was trying to gain that identity that hey, you are still worth pursuing. You are still worth being a mom to your kids, you are still have value with what you have to say to others. Even within the depth of that grief. And Speaker 3: 20:31 I went through a good bit of counseling as well. Um, and that, that's main, that's been a huge help and just giving me the strength to be, be Tashina Fritz: 20:40 bold and talk about my grief and talk about how know at losing your mom does suck. Like for lack of a better way to put it. It, it, it just, it just straight sucks. And, and you know what? That's okay too. To acknowledge that it does, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to navigate everything that I do in a negative way. I'm going to let it navigate everything I do in a positive way because my grief, yes, it will always be a part of me and I will never lose it because you, I mean, you hear people that celebrating 60 some odd years without their mom and it's still stings. It's, it's now become a new part of the Va. But I'm not going to let the negativity of my grief define who I am and I'm going to allow it to be a blessing to others by talking about it. And if I can just get even one person that helps with going through grief themselves, I think it's a success and it's going, I'm going to use it to empower. I'm not gonna use it to tear me down. Kat Bonner: 22:04 Yeah, absolutely. So obviously it seems like, Kat Bonner: 22:12 I mean, how can you not struggle with your identity? You know when you lose the person who like birth, do you, I know that sounds, you know, a little, I guess vulgar or I don't even know what their credit for bridges here, but I'm like gory. But you know, regardless if I, like if a woman is a close is close to her mom or not, I mean that's just such a special bond than a mother and her daughter have like a mother and her child even. So what was it that you think, obviously I know that fit for mom helps you rediscover your identity, but was there something like specifically a bout, it seems to me the way you know I'm interpreting it is that when your mom died, you know, you like had just become a mom again. So maybe that's why like that's where the identity was being tied in, like working with other moms. Um, yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Tashina Fritz: 23:21 Yeah, I mean I would say most definitely. I mean I was starting over again with the baby and in I raised two girls with mom, but now I have a new baby to raise without and going through a lot of first without her. And um, you know, cause you, when something new happens you take, you pick up that phone and you're like, hey mom, you know, they did this or why didn't have that anymore. And so having to kind of understand, like internalize and, and in find that identity that hey, you are strong in yourself. You don't have to call mom for it. You can celebrate those things with them. You and with your fam. Yeah, my husband and my kid knows and trying to find that identity that I am a strong mom without my mom being here and that I can do things without mom being here. And it was really just finding that hey, you are strong and you can do this in Tashina Fritz: 24:42 Bart was a huge part of kind of that inner dialogue that I had to have with myself constantly still do. Um, a good is that hey, you can do this. You, you, he got this basically and just kind of letting yourself be like, it's okay that I don't have mom to call anymore. It's okay that I don't have advice from her. Why? Because you know what? She has given me everything that I needed, all the tools that I needed and now I just need to lean on them and take them in the forward and make them my tools that now define me who I have can go forward. And that's a great way to honor my mom as well as be like, you, you taught me these and now I'm going to move forward and I'm going to stand on them. And, and um, it's helped me go through a lot of, yeah, just put, putting on those big girl britches basically. Kat Bonner: 25:43 Yeah. I mean you're very right. And it's so weird to think like sometimes it's immediate when you realize that you are struggling with your identity and you don't know who you are anymore. But then an other aspects, it's like, wait, it takes you awhile to like realize that this is what you're struggling with. So for you, was it like immediate or more gradual that, you know, you realize you were really struggling with your identity? Tashina Fritz: 26:24 I'd say it was fair, fairly immediate. Um, it was, you know, cause you are just, it just hits you. He was like, oh my gosh, how can I do this? How, how am I able to, to go on and, and do the day to day like I used to. I, I don't know if I can, you know, and, and really grappling with that. Speaker 4: 26:55 Yeah. Tashina Fritz: 26:56 It was, it was hard to, to navigate how to do that, how to move forward and say, all right, Speaker 4: 27:08 yeah, Tashina Fritz: 27:09 you can do this. You, you will, you will survive basically. And, and Speaker 4: 27:17 yeah, Tashina Fritz: 27:19 mainly getting right into grief counseling. That was huge on just kind of allowing myself to talk about the tragedy as well as the with it. And Tashina Fritz: 27:35 that kind of started, you're just washing over you and just kind of bringing up a good reminders and honestly crying a lot. Um, especially at first fine often. Um, and it's just, I think just allowing yourself to grieve and be a mom saying, okay, this is what it is now. I can't bring mom back. It's not going to happen. Hmm. Um, and so I can, I can be okay and I can move forward and I can be the mom that she wanted me to be and I can be the wife that she wanted me to see that she looked down on and from taught. And I can be that person and allowing myself to be the person that my mom taught me to be. Um, by just kind of on winding, just the grief and unwinding the hurt. And that was a huge part of just saying, okay, I got this. This is what I'm going to be. I'm going to be this mom that my mom taught me to be and I can do that. Kat Bonner: 28:59 Yeah. I, I love that you mentioned that and like realizing that, you know, it almost was immediate and Speaker 4: 29:07 okay. Kat Bonner: 29:08 That is almost hard to explain. Like in general, it's hard to put, you know, your feelings into words sometimes, especially when it comes to grief because Ge is grief is grief, but it's like, did you struggle with, you know, finding your identity in the past? Like, how did you, I mean, I know fit for mom was like how you coped with that, but did you have to try like a bunch of things? Like how did you cope this struggle Tashina Fritz: 29:42 of grief to, you know, move on from it. Is there a specific thing that helped you? I would say, I mean, grief counseling was huge fun and amazing counselor. Um, I actually tried a couple and finally found one that was like, oh, she's, this is my person. You know? And I always encourage people if they're going through any kind of substantial loss, like if they're not meshing with the counselor change and you will find that one. But really I think just unraveling what grief is, was a big turning point for me. Um, cause you know what, when you don't, when you haven't dealt with grief, you kind of just say, all right, I'll check off this box and I'll check off this box, you know, like denial and all these things, not just start checking them off. And once I get over him, then I'm over him and, and then I'll send you lose somebody and you're like, oh wait, Speaker 3: 30:41 wait. I could do, Tuesday may have been my day of denial. But, uh, Wednesday was my angry day and Thursday was my cry. You know, and you're hitting them all. Or it could have been just like by the hour, who knows? And Tashina Fritz: 30:56 I think just really grappling the understanding of what grief was and that grief is, it won't end. It's not going to stop. I'm never going to stop grieving my mother. It's not going to stop. And I think just kind of coming to that terms that there's no book ends on grief. It will always happen. We will have good days and you'll have bad days. And as time progresses, you have more good days than bad days. And allowing yourself to, to have good days that uh, telling yourself that it's okay to have joyful times admiss your grief, you can still have a lot of joy. And that my mom wanted me to be like that too. She, she doesn't want me to sit around and be crying about it all the time. She wants me to go be a mom to my kids and go change the world with my other, with doing fit for mom and changing mom one mom at a time. Tashina Fritz: 32:01 And that's what she wanted me to do. And so being able to allow myself to honor her and what she would really want me to do and kind of keep that in the back of my mind when I do have those sad days that hey, my mom, she's, she was good, she was wanting to cry. She, she would show her emotions and be like, okay, we, you know, we get it out and then we move forward and, and I feel like I do a lot of the same that she, you know, did and just realizing how much I am like my mom and, and where she taught me these things. And so, I mean, I do it that way then, you know, I'm going to have my sad days and I'm going to allow myself to cry. And my girls know their, like they'll see me kind of really thinking about grandma. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I am thinking about grandma, you know, and, and they know and sharing in that grief with them because they have enough leave too because they lost their grandma. And that was tough. Tashina Fritz: 32:59 Just that kind of saying, I'm going to carry this grief with the, that I'm not going to let it hinder who I'm supposed to be and the mom that I'm supposed to be to my kids and the fitness instructor to the moms that I teach or the leader to the moms that I teach, and I'm not going to let it be a negative. I'm going to let it be a positive because of my grief, I'm able to lead in this way because of my grief. I'm able to be a better mom and be purposeful in what I do with Michael Hall's, because of my grief, I'm able to put one step in front of the author and use it as a positive and not a negative. Kat Bonner: 33:52 I think that is like mad new favorite phrase because of my grief, but it is so true and it seems like you know, and I'm sure a ton of people struggle with this. I know that I did as well, but as almost like just expressing your grief, you know, whether it's talking it out or writing it out or whatever, like you have to express your grief somehow to figure out what it is that is going to help you rediscover your identity. And it's like when you figured out that it was going to be, you know, doing the whole fit for mom thing and working with moms that was going to help you rediscover your identity. Yeah. Then you did that, but you had to like talk it through and you had to get help before you knew. It seems like, you know, that's what it was. Kat Bonner: 34:50 That would help you find yourself again and that's so important. Like grief is not an easy thing to talk about regardless of who you're talking about at with, but it literally just goes to show that like how important it is. I mean, nobody wants to feel like they don't know who they are. I mean, it's bad enough you're in the situation and like once you, and you're obviously not going to be the same person that you were before this happened. No. I think that's also very important to point out, but once you a realize that and be realized that like you're so much stronger of a person and that you and like take pride in the fact that you are who you are because of your grief. That is a very powerful thing. And that is something that people are like you should be proud of because not many people get to say that and yet sucks. Yeah. Like you wish some like, you know, you might wish that you didn't have to go through this to be this kick ass woman that you are, but you know, that's life and you have to make the best out of the hand that you know you have been dealt and you, I'm like, no, you cannot let grief control you. You have to take control of it to get to where you want to be and to find the person that you are meant to be in this world. Tashina Fritz: 36:20 Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I always tell my clients or use close friends, I'm like, I'm going to talk about, I'm going to blow Kinda, I'm gonna blow grief up because so many people just, they don't talk about, okay maybe if I don't mention her mom then everything will be okay. I'm like, no, you guys talk about it like, and if I start crying it's okay. Like I will cry in form with you because you know what, I'd rather talk about it. And that is more honoring to my mom then shoving it down and not talking about it and I want my clients and my friends to ask me about it because you know what? They are so fortunate that they have their mom but maybe one day they won't and I want them to know that hey, they can come to me because I have gone through it and I am fairly vocal about and and but in and out that I'd do it the right way by any means. But I'm going to talk about it because it is now a part of me and like we say, our identity, like grief is now an identity of mine. A, a new hat that I wear. And I'm going to talk about that hat because it's a big part of my girls. That's okay. Hold on one second. It's okay for Kat Bonner: 37:48 close the door. We had a big converse. I said you guys have to be quiet and yeah, I don't know. I think it's very important. Like I love how you said, you know, maybe my clients will go through this waltz one day. First of all, I'm not saying that children don't pass before their parents, but regardless, like they will be without their moms, whether they are in heaven or whatever. You believe in, you know, without your mom or whether they are living without their mom one day they're going to be without them. Like death is a part of life. And I think people who have experienced experience as loss just to get, so like what? Like this is the thing, this happens. I'm like, yes. It happens. Like, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I thought I was invincible. I mean everyone thinks that it won't happen to them, but it's like it's gonna Happen to you and I don't try to be like a Debbie Downer but also tried to be realistic and like I think that's very important to point out to people. Kat Bonner: 38:53 Like one day you will be without your mom regardless of you are living or not. You know, and actually heard this analogy the other day, one of my friends told me, she was like grief is like the ocean. And I kept thinking and I was like, you know it kind of is and it's weird. I went into like a theme park that weekend. I was like, oh my gosh, a grief is like a roller coaster. And I know it sounds cliche but like, oh some days are up, some days are down, some days you're flipped upside down. Like roller coasters go under water. Some days you're like floating on the water. Some days you're under the water. I'm like, oh my gosh. I don't know. Maybe I'm just weird and like roller coasters. But Speaker 3: 39:39 it's, it is, it's a up and down, up and down. And, and you know, that's what I recently had a good close client of mine as well as friend. She just lost her step mom to breast cancer and they were really close like as a last week and is going nick, you know, just kind of reached out to her. I'm just like, yeah, ask me questions like lemony or even about hospice and what it looks like at the end. Like trusts me, like ask me, I want to to be an open book for you because you know, I, when I went through it and I didn't have some, like you're like, what is going on? What is all this, you know, and, um, and there's a lot of comfort and you know, going through it with somebody else's, it's also very sad of course. But, um, but just trying to, I'm like an open book with it because grief is crazy and you just don't understand how it goes up and down and how you have good days. Speaker 3: 40:39 And also the triggers. Like I, I'm trying to explain to people triggers, like, you know, the day of my mom's death, that's a tough day. Mother's Day really sucks. I never really knew how much, like I just kind of shut down for mother's Day. I'm not going to lie. Like I'm like, I can't go to church. I can't, like, it's just, it's a really, really tough day for me. Which is funny because I just really never, you know, you honored your mom on Mother's Day, but you didn't really care that much that it's like a, a hallmark holiday now you're just like, man, this holidays. Yeah, and in your birthday, my birthday, because you don't have that person calling you anymore. Being like, here's your birth story on it and you know, and that, Kat Bonner: 41:25 I struggle with that, but I'm glad I'm not the only one because my birthday is like harder for me sometimes in my mom's birthday and people were like, you're crazy. I'm like, all right, well, whatever. I guess I'm crazy then. Speaker 3: 41:35 Well. Well, it's because that was like, you know, I didn't really realize it really until my mom was gone, but like, Kat Bonner: 41:42 okay, Speaker 3: 41:42 art, like for my kids, like it's a huge celebration for me cause that's when I had my babies, you know? And it's the same. It's like, gosh, that's something that's fun to celebrate with your mom who, who had you in birth unit brought you into this world. And, and in Christmas of course, all the holidays, those are always tough, you know? And, and so it's explaining to my friend, I was just like, you know, there's times that I kind of disagree. Tashina Fritz: 42:05 Fear. Like I, I will kind of come a home body and not do, um, things not as active on, you know, in the past Speaker 3: 42:14 group and stuff like that. And it's just because it's my way of coping with these tough times. And then I'll get back kind of like nothing happened and it's like I just had to get over it. I had to kind of mourn and then, okay, now I'm back, you know? And, but there's those triggers and they just come up and gosh, they'll probably always be there. I assume you know, by, maybe it'll get easier as the years go by, but Kat Bonner: 42:42 MMM. Speaker 3: 42:43 Well it's just, it is, it's just tough than there's no, there's no really late. It's Tashina Fritz: 42:47 lane it to people until they've gone through it. Um, and that's okay. Like I was in the dark for a long time and now I've kind of open to the light of the sorrow of grief and it's, it's a whole new world and it gives you a new perspective and seeing the world through different eyes and how much of the world is grieving and in, and just getting through day to day. And it really gives you lots of empathy for other people, um, in a major way. Kat Bonner: 43:29 I love how you said that. I think even like, as you know, we go through our own, separate in a grief process and we start to grow. Obviously it's very important one to point out that grief does not end. That's just not a thing. Uh, yeah. But it's also important to know this. I love hearing saying like, you know, you have more empathy. Like when my mom first that I was not empathetic can knock on lie granted. Yes, I think it was because I was the only, I was the first person of like my immediate friend group or whatever, you know, had been through that wall. So I'm like, don't tell me you understand if you lost your great uncle because you don't understand it. So like obviously now I'm, you know, I'm a lot more empathetic, but I love how you mentioned that because it really just goes to show, especially in the beginning stages of grief, the importance of having people around you that can truly understand your loss. Kat Bonner: 44:34 Like not just say, I understand like obviously everybody's lost story with their mom is different, but like a woman who's lost her mom is a woman who's lost her mom. Like, I don't care how you look at it. And I didn't act like I didn't have that until, you know, I got to college and like once I got to college and realized that there's so many people like me, I was like, Oh my word, this was a night and day difference. But like when you don't have that at first you realize how hard it is. And like when you finally find that, oh my gosh, it's so riveting and you realize how helpful and how healing it is. And even if like you need help and like, you know, especially if like you see other women who have experienced your lost and they're doing well and like getting help from them and seeing that like, hey, they're doing well, I can do well too. Kat Bonner: 45:33 Let me obviously grief he, and it was very individual but like, hey, what did you do to be in this place? Like maybe I should try what you did. Like maybe I can get some pointers just by talking. Like, it's just crazy and it's so, I find it more comforting to talk and to get help from, you know, women, other women who've lost their moms just because like they're not going to judge you. They're not gonna say that you know what you're feeling like there's literally not going to be like, I understand. I'm not saying that those people who do say that or condescending, but it goes unsaid. You don't have, they don't need to say that. They understand for you to feel like they understand and I just, yeah, I just, I cannot stress the importance of that enough. It's just like finding, Speaker 3: 46:26 it's just huge. Like that's what I always encouraged people. I'm like, go on that mother and this daughter site to start. Kat Bonner: 46:31 I mean if it's overwhelming for you, there's plenty of, I think because there's also like 10 trillion groups or something like that. I'm like, that's kind of sort of why I started this podcast. Like if it, podcasts are more of your thing, if blogs are more your thing, like whatever, there's plenty of resources out there for you to find a community with other women who have been through your loss. So like whatever it is that you is your thing like go find it, it's out there. Speaker 3: 47:04 And you, do you feel like you have kind of this like unspoken bond with people? Like, uh, I have, uh, you know, a good bit of friends now that have lost their mothers and in some that we've come together with because of that, like there's another franchise for fit for mom and Chattanooga and that's kind of how we came together. She shared her story on um, one of our like co fit for mom pages about losing her mom Tashina Fritz: 47:30 and she's a year ahead of me, um, in her loss. And I like almost immediately reached out to her and I was like, Hey, I mean this is a weird thing, but I lost my mom too. And like, we have this like bond that you can explain because of that, you know, like we might be like completely polar opposite of people, but because we both lost our moms and she lost hers. Um, when her, I think she, she recently had a baby so she had a baby without her mom and walking through that with her and Kinda hearing her talk about that and Speaker 4: 48:11 okay, Tashina Fritz: 48:11 we just have this, you know, we can almost just like look at each other and just know I get it, I get that sorrow, I get that, you know, and without even saying anything. And, and I have another friend who, she's kind of a mentor of mine and she lost her mom about the same age as I, but she's 20 years. Fast forward, not quite 20 years, but she is fast forward a bit. Her children were young, like mine where she lost her mom and now her children are graduating high school or college and, and so she's walked it and it's just going through it with her, you know, her talking about it and she's made more progress than even I have in you navigating her grief and just kind of hearing some stories of half she's conquered and still been an amazing mom and still been a successful business woman and hearing that, hey, I can do that. I see you did that. I can do that. And it does. It's just that that's trained solace that you get, um, with that like-mindedness that you have and, and that sorrow that you shared. Kat Bonner: 49:29 Yeah, it is a small world, that's for sure. And it's so nice. It's like when you find, I know another woman who can relate to your loss, that you literally don't have to feel like you have to talk about it or you have to say everything that comes to your mind. Like you don't have to say like, you don't have to hear them say, I understand. Because you know that they understand and it's like, it's hard to describe, but there's literally just something about it. Like it doesn't matter if you've ever met them. It doesn't matter if you like know them personally. But just knowing and just conversing with them just about everyday life or whatever, knowing that like, oh my gosh, it's so hard. Like I feel like grief and just in general, like a lot of people think that like is this normal? Kat Bonner: 50:17 Is this like a thing? But knowing and just conversing with other women and realizing that this is a thing, like it's okay if I'm feeling x amount of ways, but if you would just ask a random person who has never lost anything in their life or is never grieved anything, they'd probably be like, ah, I don't know what to tell you. And I'm like, dude, that's not helpful. I appreciate it. But I mean, that just goes to show like when do you need help? That might not be the best person to turn to just say it. But that's just my two sentence. So, yeah, Speaker 3: 50:54 exactly. I know, I just, I remember really kind of my first stages of grief, yelling, you cry a lot at first of course. And I used to remember where a person was, one of our was with two other women and one of them was like, you know, I just feel like I need to pray for you and just lift you up. And I'll say, can you thank you, I appreciate that. Well, of course, you know, while she was praying, I started crying and the other girl that was there, it was just like, oh, she's crying again. And you're just like, what? Like of course I am like, this is tough. Like, and I just, it, you know, that's like those few situations where those things just etch into your memory and you're just like, what a terrible way to, to respond to somebody crying about their mother. Speaker 3: 51:38 Like it's just not okay. And, and I think that's why I've also become quite vocal about migraines. There's, because I just, I feel like so many people just don't, you just don't get it. And so let me, let me share a bit of my depth of sorrow that I have because of these things that I, I don't have any more because my mom's gone and that though, yeah. I don't cry about him as much anymore, but they're still very hurtful. But also talking about is honoring and it's good for me and it's healing in a major way. And, and those are those things that, you know, I wish that, yeah, I think that's why another one of my missions or just to like blow the cap off of, of what grief is with other people and talk about it because I like, people need to know like, one, this is one, it's hurtful when you respond that way and to like, this is, this is, it is tough and, and that's okay for it to be tough and it will always be tough. Um, and so, and but you just kind of, one day they'll deal with it and then they will understand. Um, and they're lucky that they don't yet, but don't be mean to us that are grieving. Kat Bonner: 52:55 Yeah. You're so right. I mean, I just sometimes I don't even know what to say when I meet these people and I wish our world wasn't so uncomfortable talking about grief and death because when you are born that is the start of how long like it will be until you die. And that's like I said, I'm not a negative Nancy, but like depth is a part of life and I don't think people realize that when they're living, which I mean to each their own, but like it's just sad and it breaks my heart how uncomfortable the world is talking about death. And I'm like, no, like it's, that's why, that's why when people experience death, it rocks their world because they act like it can never happen. Right. It doesn't exist. And I'm like, and I don't know. And I guess I was Kinda sorta like that. Kat Bonner: 53:50 I mean maybe do, they just don't think about it, but like it's just so important to talk about when you're living. I mean like, I'm like, don't think it's ever too young. I'm like, okay, I have a will. Like I'm not thinking I'm going to die today. You, but like in all actuality, like if you have assets and get a will, I mean it sounds, it sounds so silly, but like unless you want to dye it testate or intestate or whatever, I don't even know the crick purposes, but unless you want your assets to go to the state, like, you know, like I don't want that goes the state. Like I do what I want, I want them to be done with it. So yeah, I'm getting on a tangent now, but I mean, yeah, it's just important. So is there anything that like you want to leave with the listeners that just is on your heart or it can be anything about anything. It doesn't really matter. Tashina Fritz: 54:51 You know, the one thing I think that with just navigation of grief as well as just working with women is we don't hear a lot that we are, we have purpose and we are enough. And that even if you have this depth of grief that takes you where you feel like you can't put one foot in front of the other, you can and believe in yourself that you can. And if you can't do it in your own, cool, ask for help for somebody to take those steps with you and hold your hand because you are not alone in it. And don't hide away in your grief. Don't keep it hidden within your heart and inside. Let it out because you know what the world does need to know and you've matter and enough that there will be somebody to walk alongside you with it and don't believe that lie that you're not worth it. Kat Bonner: 55:59 Okay. I'm just gonna sit like following Paul from and I was like, I'm just going to sit here and just let that sink in. Let that resonate. I love that you completely just took the words out of my mouth and I'm glad that you were able to pay them. So thank you so, so much. I love getting this. Speaker 3: 56:23 Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Anytime I get to talk about that good. I'm like, well maybe I'm just, it isn't it always, it always does. You know? Cause like I, I've kind of talked to that is it's, it's a way that I can honor my mom and that is, that is healing. And that is powerful because she was great. And so why hide it away? Let's still talk about her because yeah, she might not be living, but she's living inside of me and I can keep that Kat Bonner: 56:55 exactly why you keep your mom alive by sharing her story and by sharing your story. Period. Speaker 3: 57:01 Yeah. Kat Bonner: 57:03 Hey friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Before you go, I have three favors to ask you. First, I wanted to let you know the I have a Facebook Group for women where we share our day to day stories, challenges, and victories. If you want to come along for the ride, head to Facebook and search for life after losing mom community. Second, if you don't mind leaving me a review and telling me how I've helped you in your grief journey, I would greatly appreciate it. Finally had to katbonner.com/podcast to access previous episodes and subscribe for episodes in the future. Kat Bonner: 57:55 This has been an OutsourceYourPodcast.com production.

Have you ever longed to be one of those who wakes up early to pray? Well hi, I’m Joni Eareckson Tada, and I have a few friends who do, indeed, get up at 5am to have a quiet time and pray. I, I’ve always been a little envious, but I’ll admit, I am not exactly a morning person. It takes quite awhile for me to get to sleep, and so those early morning hours are pretty precious. Well, it is not that way anymore. Maybe I'm still feeling the effects of my recent cancer treatment, or whatever, pain usually wakes me up, it does, around 4:30 in the morning, and I simply cannot find a comfortable position in which to sleep until help comes to get me up at 7:30 in the morning. Now, I used to panic. Like, “I’ve gotta get to sleep. I’ve got to get back to sleep. I don’t want have to wake up Ken again to have him turn me.” And I would pray that God would help me come up with a position where I could sleep without being distracted by pain. I stare at the clock projected on my ceiling, and I groan, and I think to myself, “You mean it’s only 3:30am?!” Yesterday, however, I found this poem and its truth really hit the spot. And I think it will touch you, too. The, the author is unknown, but this is how it goes. It says: Refuse to fall down; and if you cannot refuse to fall down, refuse to stay down. And if you cannot refuse to stay down, lift your heart toward heaven, and like a hungry beggar, ask that it be filled. You may be pushed down. You may be kept from rising. But no one can keep you from lifting your heart toward heaven. Only you. It is in the middle of misery that so much becomes clear. The one who says nothing good came of this, is not yet listening. I love that part about lifting your heart toward heaven. It made the difference for me. Once God helped me release the anxiety, I could not be kept from rising. And at 4am, when I did, wide awake, I heard God whispering to me, “Joni, why don’t you use this time as your early morning prayer time?” And all of a sudden, a light went on. Of course! I’m not gonna lay here anxious. I’m to pray. I was able to embrace my circumstances, and not fight them, not feel defeated or pushed down by them. And so now, when that early hour appears on my ceiling, I see it as an invitation to draw near to God. At a time when, normally, I would never be awake, draw near to Him and praise Him. Actually, more than listing petitions, that 4:30 hour, it really is my time of worship. Amazing things can happen when we stop resisting the irritating, inconvenient circumstance; you know, the problems we can’t solve. And just lift our hearts to the Lord, He then turns those difficult moments into seasons of worship. You know I'm reminded of that every time I watch this wonderful little video of my stroke-surviving friend, Katherine Wolf. Given that May is National Stroke Awareness month, I posted Katherine’s brief but powerful testimony on my radio page today at joniradio.org. I mean you watch this video, and I tell you you’ll never have a reason to complain again. Katherine was a beautiful, successful model in Los Angeles; a bright young Christian woman married to a Pepperdine law student. And after their first child, she suffered a massive stroke which left its mark in many ways. But Katherine refused to stay down. And her incredible story has been inspiring people like me to do the same ever since. So today, visit joniradio.org, and watch Katherine’s video. Then, be certain to share it with your Facebook friends, or anyone you know who has survived a stroke. See you later at joniradio.org. I’m Joni Eareckson Tada. © Joni and Friends