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Esther bezoekt samen met veearts Vera Bavinck de Vakbeurs Innovatieve Veehouderij. Wat zijn de nieuwste ontwikkeligen en hoe kijkt de sector naar de plantaardige toekomst? Ze spreken met standhouders over dodingsmachines, ontwikkelingen in china, de rol van de Schepper en over principes. Lees hier meer over het werk van Vera Bavinck:  https://www.fairpoultry.com/ Interview en montage: Esther Molenwijk Audio mixage: Marlon van der Pas Help ons het plantaardige nieuws te verspreiden: deel deze podcast.Ga naar studioplantaardig.nl en volg ons via BlueSky, Mastodon, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok & #StudioPlantaardigGeef onze podcast ook een rating en schrijf een mooie recensie. Alvast enorm bedankt!

In Episode 499 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their extended study of Matthew 25 with a close examination of the Sheep and Goats passage (vv. 31–46). The conversation tackles one of the most frequently misread sections in the Gospels — a text often weaponized for works-righteousness or social-justice reductionism — and recovers its deeply Reformed, gospel-saturated meaning. The hosts argue that the works displayed at the final judgment are not meritorious currency but the spontaneous, unselfconscious fruit of transformed hearts. They explore the significance of the sheep's surprise, the inheritance language of the kingdom, unconditional election, and the precise meaning of "the least of these." The result is a theologically rich, pastorally grounding episode that offers genuine assurance to believers while calling the church to practical, ordinary mercy toward its own members. Key Takeaways Works at the final judgment reveal identity, not merit. The sheep are on the right because they are sheep — not because their accumulated deeds earned them a place. Their works flow from a renewed nature, not toward a threshold they must clear. The righteous are surprised — and that surprise is theologically decisive. If the sheep were consciously stacking up merit for judgment, they would have kept careful ledgers. Their inability to recall their own works demolishes any works-righteousness reading of the passage. Inheritance is not wages. Jesus' use of the word "inherit" signals that the kingdom is received by virtue of relationship, not performance — a point reinforced by Paul in Romans 8 and Galatians 4. Election precedes and grounds the works. The kingdom was prepared "before the foundation of the world," meaning the deepest cause of the sheep's blessedness long predates any of their deeds. Works are downstream of grace, never upstream. "The least of these" refers primarily to fellow believers, not to the poor in general. The phrase "my brothers" in verse 40 narrows the referent to members of Christ's body — those who belong to him by adoption, faith, and union with Christ. There is no two-stage justification. The final judgment is not a second review of whether one has done enough. It is a reassertion of the righteousness of Christ already imputed to believers — a public vindication, not a fresh assessment. Practical, ordinary mercy toward the church is the mark of kingdom membership. The six works listed — feeding, giving drink, hospitality, clothing, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned — are not heroic or extraordinary. They are the unglamorous, costly, consistent kindness that flows naturally from those who have been made new. Key Concepts The Surprise of the Righteous: A Devastation of Works-Righteousness One of the most theologically loaded moments in Matthew 25:31–46 is the reaction of the righteous at the judgment: "Lord, when did we see you?" They are not feigning humility. They genuinely do not remember. As Jesse Schwamb notes in this episode, this surprise is "devastating to a works-righteousness reading of the passage" — because anyone consciously building a merit ledger would have kept meticulous records. The sheep kept none. Their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from hearts already made new by the Spirit that those works barely registered as remarkable. This is precisely what the Reformed doctrine of sanctification predicts: truly gracious affections issue in Christian practice as the spontaneous fruit of a transformed nature — as natural as a good tree producing good fruit. The works are real, the works matter, but they are not calculated. They are evidence, not currency. Inheritance, Election, and the Order of Grace Jesus does not tell the sheep they earned the kingdom. He tells them to inherit it — and he specifies that it was prepared for them "from the foundation of the world." These two details together form a nearly complete statement of Reformed soteriology embedded in the judgment scene itself. Inheritance, as both Paul and Jesus make clear, is received through relationship and not through performance. An heir does not negotiate terms; an heir receives by virtue of who they are in relation to the testator. Layered on top of this is the language of eternal, unconditional election: the kingdom's preparation predates all human works, good or bad. There is no "looking down the corridor of foreseen merit" here. The sheep's blessedness has its deepest root in the sovereign grace of God exercised in eternity past — which means their works, however real and meaningful, can never be the ground of their standing before the King. "The Least of These": The Church as the Primary Referent A significant and often overlooked interpretive question in Matthew 25 is the identity of "the least of these my brothers" (v. 40). The episode argues, in line with the dominant Reformed and historical reading, that this phrase refers primarily to fellow believers — members of Christ's body who are suffering, vulnerable, or marginalized within the community of faith. The word "brothers" is not incidental. It places the referent in a specific covenantal and familial relationship with Christ. This does not exclude broader applications of mercy — the hosts acknowledge that the principle may extend centrifugally outward — but the center of the text is the church's care for its own. This reading is consistent with Galatians 6:10 ("do good to all people, especially the household of faith"), with Acts 9 (where persecuting the church is persecuting Christ), and with the overall logic of the passage, in which belonging to the King is the decisive category. Memorable Quotes Their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from a renewed heart that they scarcely remembered them, let alone regarded them as currency for salvation. — Jesse Schwamb Sheep are put on the right side because they are sheep, and goats are put on the left side because they are goats — not because they act like sheep or because they act like goats. Those characteristics flow from what they are. They don't make them what they are. — Tony Arsenal God provides grace. Now do all that you can do. That's the Christian way to look at things. He has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in. This is not some sort of measurement of whether or not you're in the kingdom. It's a description of what those who are in the kingdom look like and how they behave. — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 499 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:13] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we're back. We're back in Matthew 25, and if you haven't been tracking with us for a little while, we've, we've talked about all the parables hanging out in Matthew 25. But what we've been talking about recently is this kind of surprise pop quiz, that's redundant, that Jesus kind of gives at the final judgment, and he talks about separating these groups into sheep, into goats, and the sheep aren't shocked that they get into heaven. They're shocked that their quiet, kind of unglamorous kindness apparently got tallied at all. And because all of these good works apparently are done from a heart already made new, have a way of sneaking past even their own doers' notice. But then there's this other group, the goats, and they learn the hard way that they never really did anything for anybody. And it's not a great look when your deeds are just faith's paper trail. And so Jesus has a lot to say to us in this, what we're calling, like, parable adjacent kind of message that he gives. Summarizing these three- Yeah ... great teachings, here comes all of this really direct and explicit instruction about, uh, the final judgment, which by the way is impossible for me now to hear or say without thinking of the final countdown. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: The final judgment.  [00:02:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was hope- I was hoping you would sing us into that, and it was beautiful. Yeah. It was fantastic.  I  [00:02:36] Tony Arsenal: try. I  try.  [00:02:37] Jesse Schwamb: So I think on this episode we got a lot to say in our ongoing conversation about this judgment, about these deeds, these works. What are they? What is their purpose, especially for these different groups of sheeps and goats? What's the deal?  [00:02:52] Affirm Deny Segment [00:02:52] Jesse Schwamb: So we'll get to all of that in just a second, but first, it's that blessed and glorious time in every Reformed Brotherhood conversation where we either affirm with something that is something that we really like, think is understated, that's really is not getting the attention, people are sleeping on, or conversely, we deny against something that just isn't that cool, just is not that great. So Tony, are you affirming with something or are you gonna deny against something today?  [00:03:17] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something. I'm not sure how long this has been a thing. I stumbled upon it, uh, a little while ago, and it's been in my affirmations list for a couple weeks. Um, and I'm also not 100% sure that this is available to every Logos Bible user. So those are the caveats.  [00:03:33] Logos Minutes Reading Plans [00:03:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, what I stumbled upon is if you create a reading plan now, instead of saying, "I wanna finish this book by this date or in this number of sessions," uh, you can say, "I wanna finish this book by reading X minutes a day," which is great. Um, it's a, it's a feature that I've, I thought, like, why didn't they have this a long time ago? Because a lot of times you want to sort of set aside a certain amount of time a day. Maybe it's 15, 20 minutes of Bible reading. Maybe it's five minutes of Bible reading. Maybe it's 30 minutes of- Bavinck or Calvin or whatever you're reading. So what you can do now is you tell it the page range or you tell it, "I wanna read the whole book." Uh, you could do, you know, passages or verse ranges or sections of the Bible. And then where you normally in the next screen where it would ask you, uh, how many days you wanna read, how many sessions, or whether you wanna read until a certain date, there's a new option. And so it just divides that up based on the amount of time. What's really slick is it will actually break pages in half. Nice. So, like, if you have a short, um, either a short amount of pages that you wanna read, and it's kinda like I wanna read for two or three minutes a day, and two minutes is not a whole page. I run into this when I'm reading Matthew Henry when I'm preparing for sermons, because for whatever reason, uh, maybe it's just the Logos page pagination, but the pages are really long. Like, a one page of Matthew Henry's commentary will sometimes take, like, 10 or 15 minutes to read, which is obnoxious. Um, I think it's just that the pages are just, like... I don't know, I think it's just long pages. Um, but if you say I wanna read this one page and I wanna read for five minutes a day, it'll actually split the page up, um, into chunks based on the word count and whatnot. And obviously, that five minutes is, it's not calculating how quickly you read, like, uh, Kindle does sometimes when you're doing that.  [00:05:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:05:25] Tony Arsenal: Um, so it's basing that on an average reading speed. So if you're a little faster, uh, of a reader, then it'll be, you know, you'll get done a little quicker, and it might take you a little longer if you're slower. But it's a really slick feature, and I think it's, like I said, I think most of us If we wanna be diligent to read whatever it is we're reading, whether it's the Bible or other theological works, um, we want to set aside time, and we wanna sorta time block. We've talked a lot about productivity, um, in this podcast. We wanna, like, time block our time so it's protected and it's, it's set aside for that task or for that purpose, and this is a great way to do it. So you just put it on your calendar. You say, "I've got 15 minutes that's set aside to read the Bible in the morning, and I know that it's gonna be a digestible chunk." And then it's a, you know, it's no longer a, a date-bound reading plan, so there's no falling behind. If you miss a day, it just means you pick up the next day. Right. So it's a great way to do it. Again, not that there's anything wrong with time-bound reading plans or deadlines, but it's a little bit of a different way to make sure that you're getting into the Word or whatever book you're reading, uh, consistently. [00:06:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's definitely a feature that I think people are sleeping on in Logos. I have that too, so I don't know if, like you said, it is d- coupled with some kind of particular package or dependent on that.  [00:06:40] Stress Free Reading Habits [00:06:40] Jesse Schwamb: But generally, I think maybe we haven't spoken enough about, like, just making what- whatever it looks like, stress-free reading plans, because I was also reading some stuff by Ryan Holiday recently, and just the reminder of how there really is a fair amount of time to read, to actually consume, like- Yeah good written material. And really, it's maybe a little bit more about how, like, we understand walking and the benefits of walking now. You don't need to, like, set aside 20 or 30 minutes to go for a walk. Even going for, like, a quick burst of three to five minutes is so happy and healthful for you. And so I think- Yeah that in the same way, we actually do have more time to read than we think, and if you wanna, like, consume material and learn more things or just become more meditative in your thoughts spiritually, I think if you create the plan, that's just another thing to, like, help you on the way. But it's gotta be one that's, like, stress-free, like you're saying, and that's what I like about the Logos. You just set it up, and every time you go back into it, it's kinda asynchronous, and so, like, it just starts you off with wherever you're at. It's never gonna, like, pop up and be like, "You missed a day, and now you owe me 60 pages." Yeah. "Get on the ground and give it to me." Like, it's, it's not gonna be like that. So I love the joy of having the plan before you, and then that means that when the time comes, you're like, "Oh, I got a couple minutes," you can just go there. It can guide you into that reading, like, easily, succinctly, with low barriers, and make you feel happy and feel, like, that joy of reading again.  [00:08:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think it's great. And, you know, I think sometimes we fall into this trap, and you kind of alluded to it. Like, you fall into this trap that if you don't, uh, if you don't have, like, 20, 30 minutes to sit and read, that it's not worth it. Right. Right. And I know I used to fall into that trap, where I felt like if I didn't sit down and read an entire chapter, that I somehow was not actually, like, getting the material. But I think most of us have some sort of regular, uh, like, waste time. Uh, and what I mean is, like, for me, I ride the bus home every, like, every day. Most days I ride the bus home, and I know that's about a 25, 30-minute period of time that, um, I can choose to, like, scroll Twitter, and that's fine. Like, it's fine to do that. I can listen to podcasts. Um, I can do all sorts of stuff. I play video games on my tablet. Um, or I could set aside 15 of those minutes and have a p- sort of a preset reading. And you will be surprised, or maybe you won't. Maybe I'm the only one who's been surprised at this, but I think you'll be surprised uh, to find how quickly you actually move through material, even at- Right something like five minutes a day. So just for example, Joel Beeke's, uh, Systematic Theology Volume 1 is about 28 hours worth of reading, at least according to Logos. If you set aside 15 minutes per day, you will finish that reading in approximately 114 sessions. So that's not that long. That's not bad. That's like a third of a year. That's not bad, yeah. So you could, you could read through all of Joel Beeke, which is thousands of pages. I mean, we're talking, we're talking four, four different five or 600 page volumes. Um, and this, this actually is counting, like, the table of contents and the index, so, like, not all of it is what you're gonna read. You could read through that whole thing in under a year and a half if you just set aside 10 or 15 minutes. Um, and obviously if you have more time, maybe you have a 45 minute, um, bus ride home or, you know, you, you regularly have doctor's appointments and you know you're gonna be in the waiting room two days a week every week or something like that, this is a great way to just make sure you've got something set aside. Like your dad always says, you always say, like, "Bring a book." Well- That's right ... this is not only bring a book, but it's bring a book with like a s- like a set chunk of that book set aside for that time period. So maybe it's your lunch break, maybe it's the walk in from the bus stop, whatever it is. Um, I think it's, it's pretty straightforward. And all the old features, like all the old ways of setting up reading plans are still there. They're not eliminating those. Um, and this is just a great way, I think, to get, kind of get your reps in. Like, sometimes you just have to do the work and- Right ... get your reps in.  [00:10:45] Jesse Schwamb: Get it.  [00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And this is a low pressure, this is a low pressure way to do it. It's not, um, it's not setting aside specific amounts of, uh, dates or anything like that. So yeah, check it out. It's, it's super easy to access, it's the same way you would always make a reading, um, like a reading goal. Um, and you actually can still set a regular reading schedule even with this feature. You could still say, "I wanna read Monday, Wednesday, Friday." You could say, "I don't wanna have a schedule at all," which means you just, when you click on it, it just brings you to the next section, but there's never any reminders. So they actually really are, like, expanding the way that, uh, you're able to generate these reading plans. The one thing I wish they had that I'm not sure why they don't, I wish they had a dynamic catch-up feature where, like, if you were... You know, let's say I wanted to finish this book and I wanted to finish it by, I don't know, the end of the year, and I missed a couple days or I missed a week, I wish there was a way to push a button and have it just redistribute the remaining readings out across- Right ... what's left of the reading plan. That's not there. That's a... If you're listening, Logos, or someone who works at Logos, that's what we need. I've told you that before. Why haven't you listened to me? But, um, uh, yeah, we need that. But th- this is a good start too, because again, it's, it's not, um- It's not making you do a deadline. Right. So it's much more relaxed paced. [00:11:59] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. Exactly. That's one of the things I love about it.  [00:12:03] Burst Reading Benefits [00:12:03] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, let me make, like, one more plea if you're, like, like you're listening and you're unconvinced about this burst style reading, and that is I've been so convinced that that kind of consumption can be really helpful to processing reading. Because especially if it's like, say you're reading something of the Puritans or something relatively deep, there is something to be said of course for, like, being able to sit down if you have all this time and just kind of read to get the flow. But what I think even there I struggle with is some things are worth stopping and thinking about, and this forces- Yeah ... some kind of meditation that happens in the background anyway, and I've found that to be so helpful. Like, it kind of just creates a little bit of attentional space by way of making you walk away from the thing that you just read. And also, if you know that you've only got this short little time span available, I think I'm prone to read kind of in a different way with a little bit more focus.  [00:12:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:12:53] Jesse Schwamb: And then I find myself really thinking about some of those things. And some of the things that you and I talk about, the things that we love to read, are worth stopping and considering. And so it's too easy to be like, "Well, I just, I need to hit the page number. I gotta get the count in. I wanna get this volume finished." Yeah. And that's great, but at the same time, like presumably, like we read to comprehend, we read to put into practice, we read to, like, help us build wisdom and to process the world and to understand things in a more robust and profound way, and that can really only happen with that kind of spacing. So this builds in some spacing, so embrace that as I think a feature and not a bug maybe of some good reading.  [00:13:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you, you mentioned Ryan Holiday earlier. One of the things I appreciate about his, um, at least most of his books, I've only read the sort of the Stoic Wisdom series, but, um, he keeps his chapters super short. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:13:40] Tony Arsenal: So, like, part of that is sort of the self-help grocery store format that he's, he's going for. Um, not that it's... It's not empty calories, that's not what I'm saying. I think sometimes that is implied there. But he keeps his chapters short, so it's very easy, like, to just pick up. I'm working through Discipline Is Destiny right now. It's the one I'm reading now. It's very easy to just pick it up and be like, "I'm gonna read one chapter," and it's, like, five, 10 minutes long. Um, and the chapters are... They're not identical, but they repeat enough themes that, like, y- you don't need to really, like, sit down and really, like, cram through it to get the concept. Right. But you'll read through and you'll get the concept over and over again. And I actually think the Puritans can... Some of the Puritans can be that same way, where they say the same thing- Right ... slightly differently over and over again. Um, another book that reminds me of that is, um, Knowing Christ by Mark Jones, which we talked, but that's a, it's weird that that's actually kind of an old book now. Um- Right ... I think it's coming up on close to a decade now since it came out. Um, but those chapters are super short, 10, 15 minutes. So this kind of at a burst reading, session reading, rap reading, whatever you wanna call it, it's actually super productive and it's, it is, you're right, it's very good for meditation because you are taking time to do it. You're doing it consistently, so it's kind of, it's kind of like hammering itself into your head. Um, but it's not, it's not so much time that it, you get, like, reading fatigue.  [00:15:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Right. Exactly. That's a beautiful thing.  [00:15:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. Like, it's reading all kinds of ways, but one of the things that Ryan Holiday was recently convicted me of is, like, he talks about how many things he's able to consume. People are always like, "How are you able to read all those books with all the traveling, all the different things, engagements that you have?" And he's like, "Because I just read all the time. I read when I'm-" Right ... waiting at the post office. I read when I have, like, literally three minutes between doing something or picking up a kid, that, that I read." And I don't know, I kinda like that idea. I, I... he's not ashamed to be like, "If that's... If I have 30 seconds, I probably just pull up a book," because I think that that's even- Yeah ... valuable space in which to consume good writing. So, and when I r- I, I, like, subscribe to all, maybe like you, like all these different feeds, all these lists. There are just- Yeah ... so many things I wanna read. My to-read list is so stacked, pun intended, and it's like books of- I know ... all kinds. And then I'm in this space now where I find that as I'm getting older, again, one, like suddenly birds continue to be interesting to me in new ways that I never anticipated, and the second thing is, like, suddenly I wanna read all this history. And so, like, now there's like this whole, where it never really appealed to me before, now there's like this, all this new, like, vistas opened up, and I'm like, "Who has time for this?" So- Yeah ... maybe the idea is to just, again, consume it in bites. And I'm beginning to really appreciate that as an effective strategy for not, like, re- necessarily reading more, but learning more, and learning it better. [00:16:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think it is probably an effective strategy for reading more for most people. I know it has been for me- True ... to just sit down and do, do a few minutes at a time. Um- Just get it ... I've got kids, there's work to do. Like, it's, y- you're not gonna be able to... Most, I think most of our listeners are probably not in a- stage of life anymore where you can really devote hours to study like you maybe you could when you were in your 20s, where you just- Right you had a job and you didn't have much else responsibility. You, you just, you know, you just had things to do. Uh, it's not like that for most of us anymore. So being able to take five, 10 minutes and, and read a book is probably a luxury, but it's probably a luxury that we could, we could probably structure our lives and make that more of a reality. Right. And this feature in Logos will help you do that with really any theological book you can practically think you wanna get your hands on that's available on Logos. So Jesse- Right ... we could talk about reading all night every night, and we- ... love to read, but that's not what this podcast is about today. So why don't you tell us what you're affirming or denying?  [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:17:27] Jesse Book Pick Perkins [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: Well, now, now I'm gonna switch it up because I had a book, and so, like, it just seems like people are gonna be like, "Oh, of course," and you just rolled right into that. So the quick affirmation is more Puritan stuff, A Perfect Redeemer by William Perkins. That's this week's book, so you should do that. I don't know if it's available on Logos. I presume that it is, and you can set up your own reading plan, and it's beautiful and amazing, and Perkins makes a case that true satisfaction isn't found in things, but in Christ. He tears down all these illusions of self-sufficiency and points us to rest fully in God's grace. It's beautiful. It's glorious. It's practical. It's like 27, to your point, Tony, 27, I think, like, really brief chapters. Perfect for the bus. Like, it's prime bus reading.  [00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:18:06] Jesse Schwamb: So yeah, that's affirmation. Okay.  [00:18:07] Denial Dying Guitar Batteries [00:18:07] Jesse Schwamb: Here's a denial, 'cause I've rarely do denials, but as you were speaking I was reminded of one that came up this morning that maybe is only going to really resonate with a small group, but I think if you know, you know. I was actually, this denial was constructed out of a conversation I had with a dear brother this morning, who I think was sharing the denial with me, uh, but might have been suspicious entirely of what I was going after. But it's this. A lot of, I'm trying to think how to set this up properly so it's, like, explained to a wider audience. So a lot of guitar instruments, that's a weird way to say this, but, like, I'm talking about guitars that have to be plugged in, have some kind of, like, onboard electronics. But principally, like, electric instruments. I'm talking about, like, electric bass, electric guitar. They usually have what's called, like, a preamp in them, which means that the signal is essentially being set up before it goes to the board, and that process requires some power. And so generally those instruments have, like, a little, you know, battery that goes in them, uh, uh, different kinds. Here's my denial. I don't know why so many of these instruments, including the- most of the ones that I own, have no nothing, no indicator to tell you how close that battery is to dying. And so what happens is- Yeah you, I think every musician, everybody who plays an instrument of, of this nature has had this happen to them, where they need to play it in a critical environment, and then the battery dies. And why I'm denying this is because this came up for me yesterday, where I was, had the benefit of playing at a church event, but it was with my acoustic electric guitar. It, it's a Martin D-16. It's a beautiful guitar. But even the Martin, it doesn't have an indicator on it. And so, like, I always swap out the battery, which I think is probably pretty wasteful, because I knew I had to leave this guitar plugged in on stage for, like, almost two and a half hours before it was gonna be used, and whenever it's plugged in, it's drawing the power. And so, so many times you get halfway through, you're playing, you're in a worship set or you're making music with people, and it just goes out on you, and when it goes out, there's no way to get the sound back except for, at least in my instrument, you have to unplug it, you have to pop out the battery, you have to put it back in. There's no, nothing discreet about this. There's nothing convenient about this. And there's certainly nothing- ... like, noiseless about that, especially if the person running sound is not being- Doesn't know ... very, like, adept with how they're handling the instrument so that you don't, like, blow people's ears out as you try to replace the battery. So I'm just wondering about this. Like, come on, instrument manufacturers. I know it's probably not pretty to put this somewhere, but you could put it somewhere discreet. Here's what I just wanna say, though, finally. Um, please don't at me. I know that there are some, especially like acoustic electric guitars, Fender's a good example, like onboard Fishman pickups that have, like, the EQ box. Some of them do have this indicator, but not enough. And if it's, like, an electric guitar- Yeah ... I rarely see this on a pure electric guitar. So please, for the love, just put, like, a little light. Maybe, maybe it turns orange or yellow or red when, like, the battery's about to go. I just, I need to know, because it's, it's so nerve-wracking when you're playing and you're like, "Oh, no. When did I last change this battery? How much longer is this thing going to last?"  [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm wondering, um, maybe I don't know enough about electrical engineering, but I actually feel like being able to determine when a random battery is starting to lose charge is probably a fairly intricate process, so that might be why, like, there's not as many. It's funny, my Ibanez guitar, which I haven't, I haven't even taken out of its case in years, I just don't, don't have a, a, a real occasion for it anymore, um, it has an indicator on it. So it's funny that you say that 'cause, like-  [00:21:59] Jesse Schwamb: Some do  [00:22:00] Tony Arsenal: Not a cheap guitar, but it's, um- Right ... it's not, yeah, it's not like a super expensive guitar. Uh, and it does have a little indicator. It's just like a little blinking light when the battery- Yes ... starts to go, it just blinks. Um, but yeah, even then, it still... It's funny, I, um, when I was in like high school and, and first couple years of college, I helped out with youth ministry at my church quite a bit, and I would often be on the team that would go, like, down to the camp the day before to set up all the equipment and to, like, get everything ready. And I remember I was always, I was always being told like, "Make sure you change the batteries. Make sure you change the batteries." Right. And like- Right ... it was always my job first thing in the morning to go around to all the microphones and all the guitars and, like, change out all the batteries. And I remember thinking, "This is so wasteful." Right. But then I remember, like, the one time we didn't do it, and it, like, crashed in the middle of, like, the big... And again, like, I don't even know if I would support this model of camp ministry anymore, but it crashed in the middle of, like, the big worship set on, like, the, like, the emotional decision- Yeah for Jesus night. Your altar call- It crashed in the middle of it ... totally blown  [00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: up.  [00:23:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and it, it, and it did. Like, it affected everything. We had to, like, stop and... So yeah, always, always change your batteries. Um, you know, like, I, you, I, when I was doing musical worship on a regular basis, I just had a couple, like, inexpensive rechargeable batteries that I would swap out at the beginning of each session. I would put the battery that was in my guitar into the charger and the battery that was in the charger into my guitar. Um, and those, those wear out over time too, so that- Right ... you know, that, that's not a healthy charging habit for those batteries, and you go through them faster. But it's better than throwing away a nine-volt battery every couple of, you know, couple of days, so. [00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:23:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That's annoying. It's, it's obnoxious when that happens. Um,  [00:23:40] Jesse Schwamb: that's, that's why I'm just straight denying against it. I suspect that this is a matter of aesthetics, and that many of these manufacturers don't wanna put something as ugly as a light somewhere on this beautiful instrument, even if it's in, like, a discreet place. That's my guess. Yeah,  [00:23:53] Tony Arsenal: maybe.  [00:23:54] Jesse Schwamb: I also theorize, like, why can't there be an intermediary pedal that would help us with this? So, like, many people, including myself, have a tuning pedal which you can essentially bypass, and you, you engage it when you wanna tune. Why can't that draw... I, I think it should be relatively straightforward, but who knows? But either way, all I need is just a heads-up. I don't need like a, "You have, you know, 16% left," or, "You have 2.67 hours left." I just need to know that it's not gonna fail me at this most critical time. Like, just tell me to swap it. That's all, that's all, that's all you have to say. Yeah. Just tell me to swap it. So I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but I think it might be a matter of, of beauty over function and purpose- Maybe ... because-  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's probably- Many, many are particular about that kind of thing Yeah. So anyway- Yeah ... yeah, I, that's maybe... I like what you said, Tony. It's maybe a good PSA. Like, change your batteries often and frequently. Don't be like me. Don't be in that position where all of a sudden, I remember I was leading some very acoustic worship on an evening service. It was a very full congregation, probably, like, 200 people. And, uh, we finished up, and somebody had to yell out, uh, "We can't hear your guitar at all." And I'm just up there playing. [00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: Ugh.  [00:25:01] Jesse Schwamb: And yeah. You know, it's distracting. It's one of those things. But-  [00:25:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: um, in the end... Uh, ironically, some people at the end of that were like, "Well, that was really great. It was much better than usual. We heard a lot less guitar." And I was like- ... "Okay."  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: My, um, my Ibanez, I never used it, but my Ibanez has an XLR cable in addition to the quarter-inch- Oh and the XLR provides power to the preamp. So that's- See, there you go ... the real solution is just to have a direct XLR, uh, XLR mic cable that goes in, uh, and then you bypass the direct box. Although then you can't, then you can't go into a tuner or pedal. Yes. So-  [00:25:33] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly ...  [00:25:34] Tony Arsenal: pros and cons. Yeah. But-  [00:25:35] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It go- it, it, it's all over the place. But let, let's talk about- Yes ... judgment, shall we? Like, what, what-  [00:25:41] Tony Arsenal: Welcome, welcome to the Reformed Guitar Cast for the  [00:25:43] Jesse Schwamb: night. Yes. E- exactly. We could talk all day about books, reading, reading plans, study plans, productivity, and guitars. These are all beautiful things. And  [00:25:51] Tony Arsenal: batteries and  [00:25:52] Jesse Schwamb: electrics. And batteries. Of which, uh, allegedly you can ha- never have enough of any of those things in that group.  [00:25:57] Tony Arsenal: It's true.  [00:25:58] Back To Matthew 25 Reading [00:25:58] Jesse Schwamb: But let's talk about, uh, judgment. And I suppose we should go back to Matthew 25, which we've been hanging out in quite a bit. And someday we'll move out of this passage. Pro- probably not today, but someday- we will actually get beyond it. And I, I know, I know we're 25 minutes in, but I am gonna read again for all of us because Tony and I, you have been resolute in saying that the best parts of our conversations really are the scripture, hearing them and going through them with great depth and a deliberate kind of measured slowness, which we're unapologetic for. And so let's just go to Matthew 25. I'm gonna read verses 31 through 46 with a f- a fair amount of speed, but enough to get us to the place where again, I just want this to be familiar as we speak about it. "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?" And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brethren of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me." Then he will also say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they themselves also will answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these, least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous unto eternal life  [00:28:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:28:29] Heavy Passage Rightly Used [00:28:29] Tony Arsenal: Like we said last week, this is a really kinda heavy passage. Um, and it can be, uh... Let me put it this way. It can be used to make, uh, believers fearful in the wrong way. I, I do think the, the passage is to instill fear of God and is inst- to drive us to good works. But it can be used in a way to sort of, as I mentioned last week, it can be used in a way to sort of say, "If you don't do all these good things and you don't measure up, then Jesus never knew you." Um, and, and it implies, or sometimes even fully says that, uh, Jesus comes to know us because of the good works that we do. Right. Right? And that's just not, um, that's just not Christian theology. That's not Reformed theology certainly. Um, it's, it's not Protestant theology, and it's not even really Roman Catholic theology down. Um, but this passage really is more about understanding what marks the life of a person who has already come to faith in Christ. That's right.  [00:29:30] Justification Not Two Stage [00:29:37] Tony Arsenal: What marks the life of someone who has been changed and transformed, uh, to be like their master, like their king. Um, so, so this passage doesn't try to teach us what we have to do to merit eternal life. Um, this isn't... A- and maybe we'll get into some of this, I don't know if we will or not, but this isn't sort of John Piper future justification, um, you know, on the basis of works, or future sa- salvation on the basis of works. Um, there's no two stages to justification, right? If we're justified, it's because Christ has imputed his righteousness to us. That's right. And what happens in the, in the final judgment, there's a real thing that happens, but it's not an assessment of whether or not we have done enough or been enough. It's the reassertion of the righteousness of Christ over us. So we'll, we'll get into that, we'll talk about it, but I wanted to make sure we set the frame for that, um, before we get into it. 'Cause sometimes when you talk about these passages, it's hard to talk about future judgment according to works, which is a genuine Christian reality, right? There's a future judgment according to works. But it's hard to talk about that without starting to sound a little bit like we're, we're earning our salvation or, like, our, our justification's in, like, sort of a second stage of review or something like that. So we'll, we'll get into that, but this is not, this is not works righteousness, this is not future justification, this is two stages of justification. [00:30:52] Jesse Schwamb: And that seems, like, very clear from the way that Jesus sets this whole up. The language is so beautifully gospelly centered and oriented.  [00:31:00] Inheritance Not Wages [00:31:00] Jesse Schwamb: Even behind the judgment, like, this curtain of judgment, when you, when you open it up, is the gospel in all of its fullness, and that begins with th- this idea of inheriting the kingdom. And inheritance, of course, is not wages. In fact, like, Paul makes this kind of, like, identical move in Romans 8 and in Galatians 4 where he basically emphasizes what Jesus is talking about here. That is, sons and daughters inherit, inherit. They don't earn a paycheck. An heir receives by virtue of relationship and not performance. And that single word is, I think in the judgment of, like, most of the Reformed understanding here, decisive for, like, reading this whole passage correctly. That whatever role these works mention in verses 35 and 36 play, they cannot be meritorious works. It's not the ground of the inheritance, because inheritances by definition are not earned. Yeah.  [00:31:51] Election Before Works [00:31:51] Jesse Schwamb: And then, like, right into the same kind of train of thought, the same line of reasoning, is this idea that, well, not only are you inheriting the kingdom, but all this was prepared for you before the foundation of the world. And here again is, like, the beautiful gospel in the form of this un- you know, eternal, like, unconditional election stated, like, very plainly. Now the kingdom isn't pr- w- was not prepared in response to, like, some kind of foreseen works. I think we talked about that last week, right? Did we talk about the cor- looking down the corridor, all that kind of weird stuff? Yeah.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yep.  [00:32:23] Jesse Schwamb: It was prepared in eternity past before any works, like good or bad, had been performed by anyone. And so that's, like, the true answer, in my opinion, to, like, any Pelagian or semi-Pelagian reading of this passage. The deepest cause of the sheep's blessedness long predates their deeds of mercy, and so their works are downstream of election and grace, not upstream of it. That's really good news. Like, that again is the Gospel, that all things are entrusted to, belong to God. God does all the verbs. However you want to say it, what we have here is true grace, and that their works are flowing out of that grace. And so because of that, there's no... It's, like, it would be insanity to boast in them, because that boasting would mean absolutely nothing. And so Jesus sidesteps that altogether by talking about inheriting the kingdom and having this all prepared for us before the foundation of the world. [00:33:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:33:15] Kingdom Language Clues [00:33:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and there's some interesting, um, I think some interesting text feature that I just noticed here that, um, I don't wanna read too much into it, but one of the things that's striking about this is the, the language around the sheep or around those on the, um, on the right of the king here. Um, there's much more of a communal, um, kingdom-type language, right? Uh, in the first section where it's talking about those on the right, uh, the word king is used repeatedly.  [00:33:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:33:45] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then when you get to the second section on those on the left, the ones that the, the, the righteous son of man does not know, um, it doesn't use the word king. And that's not, of course, not to say that he's not the king of those who are, you know, condemned. He's the king of all. But there is this, this, uh, obviously intentional, uh, choice to use the word king, and what, what is a king if not someone who has a kingdom and a people? Exactly. So there, there even baked into that simple linguistic feature is already this idea that the people he's speaking to are his people. And so, like I said, we've talked about parables and parable-adjacent teaching as kind of being sort of systematic language in story form, systematic theology in story form. Even here, we're seeing election, we're seeing definite atonement, right? The people are his people because he prepared this kingdom for them before the foundation of the world. [00:34:42] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:34:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, and then the, the people who aren't his, they don't even get to be associated with him as king. They don't even beg- get to, get to be associated with his kingdom. They're so far outside of the kingdom of heaven, outside of this kingdom, that even to say that the king is speaking to them is almost like, uh, it's almost like a contradiction, right? So, um- In sort of like common parlance, we might refer to another nation's king as King Charles or, you know, K- King whatever, um, or President so-and-so. But that person is not my king. Right. And so although, like, maybe there's some decorum just in general, and, like, politically it's wise, I'd have no obligation to call King Charles King Charles. Like, I can ... I ... He's not my king. I don't owe any obligation of, of fidelity to him or to his title or to his crown. Another funny example, um, recently, um, you know, I work, uh, at a hospital. We have a spiritual health or chaplaincy department, and there's some Catholic priests who are on staff there. And, um, the, the spiritual health department is part of the care experience group, which is the same group that my patient relations team is part of. And some- someone noticed that at, like, broader team group meetings, I don't refer to them as Father. I'm one of the only people in the room who just says Joakim or, you know, or Sam. Like, I don't ... And they don't mind. It doesn't bother them at all.  [00:36:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Um, and it's funny because someone asked me that, and I'm like, "Well, they're not my priest, and I, like, I don't acknowledge- Right their status as the Father. Like, there's actually some biblical reasons why I wouldn't do that." I think this is kind of sort of almost like, in a third person perspective, kind of the same thing. Like, the k- king, i- the, the Gospel writer here, Matt, is refusing to use the word king in relation to this Son of Man in relation to these people to say something about them, to say something about those people- Yes who are outside of the kingdom  [00:36:34] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's right on. It's a bit like, I suppose, in a, a lesser way, like there was a time... So you're married to my sister. There was a time where you weren't, we weren't Yeah ... uh, and during that time, like I, I was not in your family, nor were you in mine.  [00:36:48] Tony Arsenal: Right.  [00:36:48] Jesse Schwamb: And then at, when you married her, I am part of your family. Like you can't kick me out. As long as you're married to Ashley, I will be part of your family and you part of mine. Right. That's how it works. And so that identity proceeds, like it c- this is like confusion between identity sometimes and I think like harmony, and so many people wanna read this as like some kind of like harmonic reflection of the state of obedience of these persons, and therefore, if they had harmony, then they were in the kingdom, and that's getting it backwards. That they were part of God's kingdom by his family by definition of identity.  [00:37:20] Surprised Righteous Hearts [00:37:20] Jesse Schwamb: So that by the time like we get to verse 37 when Jesus is saying the, the righteous are gonna answer him and they're gonna say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?" I think that's one of the most like theologically important verses in this passage, which proves the point you just made. And I think it's often under-read because the righteous, they don't remember doing any of these things for Christ. They are surprised. They have like no self-conscious ledger of merit that they can point to, and that surprise I think is devastating to works righteousness reading of the passage because- Yes if these people were consciously stacking up merit to present at the judgment, then they would've kept a very careful account. But instead, their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from a renewed heart that they scarcely remembered them, let alone like regarded them as currency for salvation. And so I think, I know there's been a lot written, you and I have talked about a lot about how people wanna parse this idea of works, understanding that it has some place, but what is that proper place? This I think does lead us into like the right focus in that kind of discussion because it's precisely what like the Reformed doctrine of sanctification would predict, and that is, you know, truly gracious affections I think issue in Christian practice as a reliable sign, hear me out here, but crucially that practice is not calculated or like self-res- referential. It's like the spontaneous fruit of transformed nature, as natural it is for a good tree to bring forth good fruit. And so the righteous in this passage, they're not the legalists that some would, I think, portray them to be or get worried that they are. They're not tallying good deeds. They're simply people who, having been made new, and who makes them new? God in Christ, right, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Because they've been made new, they just could not help but love their neighbor.  [00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:13] Sheep And Goats Identity [00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, and you know, I think it's sometimes hard... We, we made the point last week that, um, the, the language in verse 32 where it says, uh, "He," He being the Son of Man, "He will separate one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats," that, that comparative as is the same language that introduces other parables. Right. And so the, the parable, parabolic element of this is a comparison to a shepherd separating two different kinds of animals in his, his bigger flock. Mm-hmm. I made the point that like we should be careful to overread sort of like what sheep are like into the behavior of those who are righteous on the right of Christ here. Um, because sheep are dumb, sheep do stupid things, sheep are disobedient. There, there's no use for like sheep to do good things and goats are not. And productive goats are also productive. Um, so what we should see though is that sheep are put on the right side because they are sheep, and goats are put on the, the left side because they are goats. Um, not because they act like sheep or because they act like goats, right? And so I think, yes, goats and sheep may have thinked behavioral, recognizable behavioral characteristics, but those characteristics flow from what they are. They don't make them what they are.  [00:40:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:40:35] Tony Arsenal: And so I think that's kind of what we see here in the parable, is the people on the, the right, the righteous on the right hand of the, the Son here, of the King as He sits on His glorious throne, the righteous simply do what righteous people do, right? They, they don't ... So much so, and again I think the shock of this is, is sort of the, the path of the teaching. The shock of this, the surprise of this on the part of the righteous are, uh, like it's palpable. And I think that when you actually talk to someone who is ... Think of the most sanctified, holy, righteous Christian you know, right? And I'm not gonna try to tell you who that is, but think of that person and think of a time that you have paid them a compliment or thanked them for doing the right thing.  [00:41:24] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:41:24] Tony Arsenal: They're like, "Oh, I didn't even think about that." Like, it's just not even on, not even on their radar. How many times have you, um, have you done a kind thing for someone at work and they like make a big deal out of it and you're like, "Oh, this is just I thought this is just what we do to each other. I thought we were just kind to each other." Um, and, and f- the flip side of this too is the, uh, the righteous in this parable or in this teaching, they're actually sort of like questioning the Lord's judgment in that they're saying like, "Wait a second, like w- why am I on the right here?" And He's like, "Well, uh, you were h- I was hungry and you fed me, and I, you know, I was thirsty and you gave me drink." And they're like, "When did we do that?" The flip side- Right ... of that is that those on the left, they're trying to justify themselves, right? They're trying to justify themselves, 'cause He's like, "Well, you didn't do these things. You're not my people." And they're like, "Well, when did we see you? When did we see you, when did you have these things happen and we didn't take care of it?" So the, the righteous are like surprised that this happened, and are almost questioning the fact that it's true, and the unrighteous are trying to justify themselves, basically blaming God. Bad judgment. It's not altogether, um... I forget which pro- I wanna say Micah or Malachi, one of those two, um, um, where the, the, um, God basically says, like, "Y- you, you're sinful people." And they're like, "When? When were we sinful people? Like, you tell me." Yeah. And then of course he does, 'cause it's the prophets. Right. But it's the same kind of thing. He comes to the, to the unrighteous in judgment. He says, "Depart from me, y- you cursed people." And then he says, "These are the, these are the things that have marked your life." And then they're like, "Where, when did that mark my life? Like, what are you talking about?" And he, he, the funny part is he doesn't give them an answer. He doesn't explain to them really. Right. He, he just like, "No, you can go, you can go away from me 'cause you." He does say like, "Well, you never, you did not do this to the least of these," and we, we need to unpack that phrase a little bit. But he doesn't give a long explanation to them justifying his judgment. He just makes the statement, basically makes the statement again, "You just didn't do it, so that's the consequence of eternal punishment." Um, again, not in like, "You didn't feed the poor, therefore you're going to hell" kind of a statement. It's more like, "You are not the kind of person that is a, a part of my kingdom." [00:43:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:43:49] Tony Arsenal: Without necessarily a firm statement about w- how that came to be, just a statement, "You are not the kind of person that is part of my kingdom." That's  [00:43:56] Jesse Schwamb: right. That's right. I think that's actually very evident in these, like, six concrete works of mercy which are listed, feeding, giving drink, hospitality to strangers, clothing, visiting the sick, uh, visiting the imprisoned. And as we've said before, those are not extraordinary feats. I mean, there's no mention- Right ... of miracles or doctrinal precision or heroic martyrdom. Yeah. It's just these ordinary, super unglamorous ministry of practical love, and I think that is significant, like you're saying, because it is a mark of true faith, this idea that it's found frequently not in spectacular religious performance, which is what some of the audience is probably after, honestly, but in this quiet but costly unnoticed compassion. And I think that is critical to understanding that those who have been identified and marked by Christ undertake these things with a seriousness, under being willing to bear the c- the cross and the curses and the cost of all those things, uh, because it is born out of a transformed life, one that has been re-identified almost as it were a new creation. And so that- Yeah ... created man does these things without putting the notches on the belts, so to speak, to tally them up because I think to that person that would be insane. What is the purpose of doing that? If I can't earn my salvation, I'm doing these things anyway. It, it wouldn't even matter. It's like trying to pay a bill that you have no money for anyway. Why would you then try to count the dollars that you have in your pocket to see if for some reason you could cover the cost? It's impossible. Yeah. And so everything changes to such a degree that I know we keep saying, like, surprised, and that is what is kind of manifested in the passage. But it's, it's not kind of like the shock of like, "I don't know what you're talking about." It's more, it's more this idea of, again, I think those being brought forward at the final judgment, and it's almost as if Jesus is saying, "You are coming into this kingdom- Because, or you are being, uh, allowed, so to speak, to come into my presence in the fullness because you did all those things. And their surprise is almost as to say, "Well, why would those things bring me into the fullness if I've, in fact, have inherited it because you've called me your own?" Does that make sense? Like, I think it's- Yeah ... there's a little bit gone there- Yeah ... that's not just they're kind of like, "Oh, this slipped my mind," or, uh, "It came so easy to me that I didn't even know I was doing it." I think it was more about the g- we should just get to the least of these then, right? Like, what does it mean- Yeah that they did these to the least of these, and how does that surprise fit into that?  [00:46:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:46:20] Least Of These Explained [00:46:20] Tony Arsenal: The other element of this that I think is super important for us to cover in the 10 minutes or so we have left. Um, this phrase, "the least of these," right? Yes. And, and this, this can really cause this passage to be misunderstood  Um, I wanna s- loud and clear, uh, taking care of the poor in our society, you know, mercy ministries outside of the church, those things are all good, and I think scripture makes an argument that we should be engaged in those, both individually and also that the church has an obligation to, um, to meet some practical needs of those who are destitute around it. Um, but that's not what this passage is saying, right? Right. So when we look at the phrase "the least" first, first thing that, that comes off here, right, in verse 40 where this phrase first appears, "Truly I say to you, as you did it to the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me." Right? This is not a general statement. The least of these are not, like, the lowest and meekest and poorest of the world. The least of these my brothers referring to those who belong to Christ. Right. Those who are related to me. And, and I actually think that that, that is probably, like, the hallmark of passage. Beyond, um, what we've talked about already of just sort of like not being about works righteousness, this is really about being a part of the church, right? They're marked by the fact that they have inherited this kingdom which was prepared for them before the foundation of the world. They're marked by the fact that, uh, they are the people of this king, so much so that the other people aren't e- the word king can't even appear in association with these other people. And this last part, they're marked by the way they have treated those in whom they are with c- in, in community with, right? They're marked by the way they have treated those who are related to the king by blood, who are adopted, who are married to the king, who are in, in the family of the king, his brothers. [00:48:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Okay.  [00:48:18] Tony Arsenal: So this is painting a picture of kind of what we see, right? W- we see in, uh, Galatians, right? Um, "Do, do good to all people, especially the household of faith." Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, our own tagline, "Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood," right? That's, that's a statement of like, yes, you're supposed to be kind to all people, but you're especially supposed to be kind and be committed to and taking care of those who are in the household of faith, who are in the church. That is what this passage is about. That is what marks those people who belong to the king. The sheep are part of the sh- part of the sheep because they're in that same flock, because they- Right ... are ontologically, they've been made new and they've been renewed into this new creation as sheep. Um, that's what this passage is getting at. And then the people who, uh, who are not a part of that, they, they have not done anything with the church. They're not associated with the church. They didn't take care of the church. They didn't, they didn't feed the church. They didn't do anything with that. And this, this again, like, think about, like, Acts chapter, you know, when, when, um, when Paul is, when Saul is called by Christ, right? "When did I persecute you?" "Well, you, why are you persecuting me, Saul? Well, you persecuted my people." So this, this passage ties a lot of those same s- same threads together- Yeah ... in a way that I think presents this really cohesive picture of what it is that's going on. This is not works righteousness. Right. [00:49:37] Serving Christ In Church [00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This is an assessment of the fact that you are, in fact, a m- a member of the people of God, that you have been engrafted into Christ and have become a part of his body. And just as he is our head, we are his body. The people who are cast out, the reason he never knew them is 'cause they've never been engrafted into him. [00:49:55] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Sometimes this does, I think, get read and defined as, like, the all the poor and suffering writ large, which is helpful, but I don't think, like, the dominant view here, at least in my perspective. And you, and you tell me otherwise. Yeah. Because, uh, on this view, of course, like, Christ does identify with all who suffer, and that maybe mercy to any sufferer is mercy to him. I think that could be partly correct, part reflection and application here. However, the stronger view, I think, e- like, even historically, is that- Really we're talking about, especially when we get to, like, visiting those in prison, the, the persecuted or itinerant Christian missionary. When we're talking about the imprisonment and persecution language is, that especially suits believers suffering for the gospel's sake, not merely the poor in general. Now, is, are there ways for us as Christians to embody the gospel and to be a witness for Christ by going out and performing acts of social justice? I would say yes, if you connect those items explicitly to the gospel. That is, that you make it clear your emphasis, genesis, your volition comes through this message of who Christ is. Otherwise, there's plenty of institutions doing very good things, and I don't necessarily, what's in view here i

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring their extended series on the parables of Matthew to a powerful climax with the passage most listeners have been waiting for: the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31–46). Far from a checklist of works required for salvation, this text is unpacked as the master parable of Christ's entire parabolic ministry — a sovereign declaration of divine election, not a merit-based audit of individual performance. Tony and Jesse explore why this passage has been chronically misread as a call to works righteousness, why the language of inheritance and predestination is front and center, and how a Reformed reading liberates rather than burdens the conscience. Along the way, they weigh in on Herman Bavinck's prescient warning about media distraction, and Jesse recommends a Puritan gem on anxiety worth picking up immediately. Key Takeaways The Sheep and Goats is best understood as a parable, or at minimum parable-adjacent. The Greek construction in verse 31 mirrors the same comparative language Christ uses throughout his parabolic ministry, placing this text firmly within that tradition rather than outside it. The kingdom was prepared before any works were done — this is election language. The phrase "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (v. 34) is not a reward for performance; it is the language of sovereign predestination preceding all human action. The works of the sheep are diagnostic, not causative. What the righteous did reveals who they already were — sheep — rather than being the mechanism by which they became sheep. The beak doesn't make the bird. Both groups are surprised, and that surprise is the parabolic punchline. Neither the sheep nor the goats anticipated the verdict they received, which undermines any reading that frames this text as an encouragement to accumulate saving merit. This passage is a recapitulation of the wheat and tares parable. Sheep and goats co-mingled until the moment of final separation, just as wheat and tares grow together until the harvest — the judgment reveals what was always true. Any theology that requires a human contribution to activate or complete salvation misreads this text.Whether Roman Catholic, Arminian, or Mormon in flavor, every view that makes God's preparation of the kingdom contingent on foreseen human merit fundamentally inverts the logic of the passage. The scope of judgment — "all nations" (ta ethnos) — would have been scandalous to first-century Jewish ears. This language deliberately expands the kingdom beyond ethnic Israel, fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant promise and confounding the assumptions of the religious elite. Key Concepts The Kingdom Prepared Before Your Works: Sovereign Election, Not Merit When the King says to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), the theological weight of that single sentence is staggering. The kingdom was not prepared in response to anything the sheep did. It was prepared before time, before works, before choice — which means the works that follow in the passage cannot be the grounds of that inheritance. Only a Calvinistic understanding of election can sustain this logic without remainder. Arminian views require God to foresee a qualifying human response; Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views require some degree of meritorious participation; even certain Lutheran frameworks lean on non-resistance to grace. Reformed theology alone places the entire cause within God's sovereign, unconditional decree — and this passage, read plainly, says exactly that. Works as Evidence, Not Ground: The Diagnostic Function of This Parable The great pastoral error in preaching this passage is treating it as a performance rubric — a list of charitable acts that, if completed, qualify a person for eternal life. But Christ does not separate the sheep from the goats because of what they did or failed to do. He separates them, and then describes the activity that characterized each group. The works are revelatory. They surface what was already true of each person's nature, just as a bird's beak reveals its species rather than constituting it. This reframing is liberating precisely because it means assurance does not rest on tallying acts of charity. It rests on the sovereign act of a Father who prepared a kingdom and the regenerating work of the Spirit who produces, in those He has claimed, a life that looks like the one described here. "All Nations": The Scandal of an Ethnically Inclusive Kingdom The Greek phrase ta ethnē — translated "all nations" in most English Bibles — would have landed very differently on first-century Jewish ears, particularly those of the Pharisees and Sadducees who comprised a significant portion of Christ's audience throughout Matthew 24–25. To them, ta ethnē meant the Gentiles, the peoples out there, those outside the covenant. The implicit effect of Christ's language is to place every people group — including Israel — within a single undifferentiated mass standing before his throne, with no ethnic group receiving preferential standing at the bar of judgment. This is entirely consistent with the Abrahamic promise of blessing to all families of the earth (Genesis 12:3), the vision of Psalm 2, and the missionary thrust of the Great Commission. The scandal is not incidental — it is the point. The kingdom Christ is ushering in is not the ethnic-nationalist kingdom the religious establishment expected. Memorable Quotes The kingdom of heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did... That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you. - Tony It's not the beak that makes it the sparrow, it's the sparrow that makes it the kind of beak it is. That's the kind of classification we're talking about in this parable. - Tony The best freedom is the one that turns over all things to God and takes him at his word when he says, 'In love you were predestined to inherit this as sons and daughters of the kingdom,' so that he does all the work, because we do not want to have any of that work our own. - Jesse Full Transcript [00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 498 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  [00:01:19] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:24] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. They said it couldn't be done. They said we couldn't come back. We wouldn't come back and continue in Matthew 25. But here we are, and we're ending this chapter in this whole section about sheep and goats. Everybody was clamoring for it. Everybody wanted to know, what about the sheep and the goats? And I think the last time we all chatted together, we prefaced it by saying it's parable adjacent. Or let's just say- Yes ... we just stacked up these three other parables, lots of things going on, and then Jesus resolves this or brings all these parables to a culmination by speaking about the end times, the end of all things, and the sheep and the goats. Yeah. And so we gotta go there  [00:02:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I'm stoked.  [00:02:07] What Counts Parable [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: And y- you know, I, I was talking with a brother at, um, at church yesterday on the Lord's day, and he was asking how the podcast's going and what we're doing. And, you know, I was kind of thinking, like, I was talking about the parables and how we're kind of moving forward, and we were gonna do some of the I am sayings in John. And, and I was thinking, like, what is a parable anyways? And who decides what a parable is and what a parable isn't? Right. Um, some of the parables Christ calls a parable, others he doesn't. Uh, we'll probably talk a little bit about that when we get to, uh, some of the back half of Luke. But this, this episode I think is gonna be really, really the payoff and really the culmination of not just these, like, this trio of or trilogy of parables that we've talked about, but I think really, like, the payout of all of the parables in Matthew. It's really, like, the summary of all of Christ's parabolic teachings. So it's, it's a good place for us to round out Matthew, and then we'll, we'll dip into the parables in the other gospels, probably have a couple more months of, of, uh, parable talk before we move on to the next thing. But, uh, it's been great, and I'm super, super stoked for this. This is one of my favorite passages, actually, and there's so much to dig into. I, I, I'm just gonna say now, we probably won't make it through the whole thing- Right ... uh, because there's a lot there. But we'll see. We'll see how we do. Maybe Jesse and I will be super efficient tonight, uh, but we usually aren't, so. [00:03:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's never happened. We, we take it low and slow. Not only that- ... it was reminding me as you spoke about that kind of proverb generally of if you wanna go build a wall, you assess what you need, how many stones, and then you go gather those stones. Yeah. You should double it, or if you're gonna go out and fight an army, take stock of that army. That's basically what we do, but in reverse. Anytime, like, you just... I just heard you say- ... like, "It'll probably take us a couple more months," you should double that. That's probably how long- Yeah ... it's actually gonna take us.  [00:03:50] Faith Works Assurance [00:03:50] Jesse Schwamb: Even in this- Yeah ... conversation, I think we're gonna get stuck in the best way possible speaking about things like faith, works, and assurance because there's a lot of language here- Yeah that could seem on the surface to sit in this tension with justification by faith alone. And I think the key to resolving all that tension, as I hopefully think we'll see, lies in the readings of works as the evidence of living faith rather than its ground, and I think that's what- Yes ... Christ is leading us through all of these parables, actually, whether it goes back. And you should listen to all those episodes. In fact, I gotta ask. Th- I mean, this brother you were talking to, it just strikes me as that question had already be answered for him if you were listening to the podcast. So-  [00:04:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I don't think he does. No, I don't think he does- ... listen to the podcast. Uh, he knows that I do the podcast, and he's very gracious to ask me about it. Tom. And I think he's probably listened to the podcast before. Got it. Um, and he's, he's just a very kind, gracious brother who, who is concerned and wants to know what I'm doing. And, um, he has, he has his own sort of, like, production stuff that he does that he enjoys that I'm, I'm not super keyed into. But, uh, it was just nice. But, but it did get me thinking, like, I was trying to explain to him where we were in the progress of the parables, and I was like, "I can't really... I don't really know," because, like, it's hard to even understand and fully... There's no, like, full comprehensive universal list of what is a parable- Right ... and what's not. And I think what we've found as we've been going through this is sometimes, sometimes you come up against a portion of a text that is often taught sort of separate from the, the rest of it. Parables get taught discreet from other parables. But then you have these sort of, like, intervening texts, or this one's kind of a summary text, that's so integrated to what the parable means you really can't do a series on these parables without also treating this text. Which is gonna be interesting, 'cause I've never, I've never encountered somebody who really roots this teaching here of Christ in the context of the parables, despite its proximity. So it'll be fun. We're gonna figure it out in real time, and, and it'll be good.  [00:05:47] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's gonna be fun.  [00:05:48] Deny Doomscrolling Bavinck [00:05:48] Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of fun, we're so glad that you're listening, and we know that you're waiting with bated breath to hear about affirmations or denials. It's of course that part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is fantastic, maybe by way of recommendation, or conversely, we deny against something that isn't that great. So Tony, as is our custom in the liturgy of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast, I ask you once again, are you affirming with or deny against? [00:06:15] Tony Arsenal: I am denying against something, and I'm gonna do that by affirming a Herman Bavinck quote. Uh, so I'm gonna read it for you. This, uh... Some of the guys in the Facebook group have put... or the Facebook group, the Telegram chat, have put together a, uh, like, a reading group to work through Bavinck's, uh, Wonderful Works of God, which is great, and I'm loving it. I haven't been able to participate in the conversation as much as I would like to, but just being part of a reading group, uh, sort of keeps you on schedule, which is great. So I've been reading through Wonderful Works of God, and on the Kindle edition, on page 34, uh, which I think is still the, I think is still the, uh, introduction, he says, quote, "The reading of daily and weekly newspapers, of magazines and brochures, devours our every blink. There's a lack of desire and opportunity for the investigation of scripture and the study of old theological works," end quote. And when I read that, it just really struck me as like- If that was true like 70 years ago, 80 years ago when Bavinck was writing this, right? And all there was was hard, hard copy media. There was no, uh, there was no digital media. There was radio, but there wasn't a lot of programming. Uh, I don't think that there was much in the way of television broadcasting. If there was, it was, it was very, very limited and very rudimentary. Um, even then he was saying the daily news cycle and all of this extra stuff that is out there is consuming our, quote, "Every blink," which I thought was a really interesting phrase. Um, it's basically like it's so ingrained in us, we're so invested and obsessed with the news cycle. Uh, or you might translate that to like to our Twitter feed or our Facebook feed or our Instagram reels or whatever it might be, and dare I say it, the podcasts we listen to.  [00:08:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:08:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, that we don't save time for scripture and other theological works. And I think it's funny too is that the, the eternal, uh, the eternal contemporary statement of the Reformed world is like we don't read enough old theological works. Even Bavinck, who I'm reading as one of the old... I mean, not like super old, but like one of the old theological works, is saying, "Hey, we don't read enough old theological works." So I'm denying this sort of like obsession we have with the daily news cycle and with constantly being up to date and like constantly consuming all of that. Um, we've talked about how like our modern global news cycle sort of, uh, is built around the deception that we can be sort of pseudo omnipotent and know all things about everything. And, um- There's a lot of work that's been done to show that, like, the world's not really that much, not that much more of a violent place than it was 100 years ago. We just know a lot more about what's going on- Right ... in other parts of the world. And there's pros and cons to that. But I think the main con is, like, we, we feel suddenly that we have to be, you know, deeply involved in the goings on of a church on the other side of the country that we never would've even known existed otherwise. It- there's just a, there's a sense of omnipotence and omnipresence that's just not becoming for the creature that I think we try to take on. So Bavinck knew it. Uh, we've talked about it. Lots and lots of people have talked about it. This isn't new. I'm not, I'm not e- engineering anything new on this. But that quote really struck me when I was reading. I was like, "Dang, man, he, he got it right 100 years ago or, or 80 years ago, and we're still struggling with it." And I think probably, like, if you go back and you look at the, I don't know, more occasional writings of people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, um, as they're interacting with, like, people in the Reformed community or the Protestant community, I bet you would find statements like this too about how, like, we really spend a lot of time reading, like, silly things and not spending- Right our time studying the scripture or studying, um, theological works. So that's my denial. I'm sticking to it, and if that means you feel like you need to turn this podcast off and go read some John Calvin or some Herman Bavinck, then by all means. Uh, I think you're probably going to be edified by what we have to talk about. But, uh, th- the Bible's better, so if you gotta go do it, if you only got- That's true ... an hour today to study scripture or listen to this podcast, please go study scripture. Yeah. Uh, hopefully we can do a little bit of both with this podcast. But Herman Bavinck said it best. Our every blink is consumed with pamphlets and newspapers and it just is- It's true it's pretty silly.  [00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: It's true.  [00:10:42] Meme Detour Reading Groups [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I gotta take us all the way back to where you started there, and I'm going to betray, to nobody's surprise, my really strong naivete when it comes- ... to social media, and memes in particular. But this is what occurred to me, and I'm gonna try it. This is, like, what classically makes really good podcasting. Let me try to describe a meme to you that I'm not even sure I actually understand or know. So this will be great. I think, you tell me, Tony, 'cause you may have seen this. It's an old meme too, so I'm not even, like, on the cutting edge here. I think it's a meme of two panels showing, like, two pictures of Drake. In know one he's kinda, like, pushing away as if to say, like, "Get that outta here," and the other one's like, "Oh yeah, that's the stuff." Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Is that accurate?  [00:11:21] Tony Arsenal: I do. I think you're gonna use it wrong, but yeah.  [00:11:23] Jesse Schwamb: Is that Drake? Okay, all  [00:11:24] Tony Arsenal: right. Yeah, that's, that's the meme.  [00:11:25] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, okay. And usually, if I understand it correctly, it's kind of like a faux juxtaposition of two things, right? Like, okay. So like here, let me try it. Uh, uh, let me just try it on everybody. Here we go. I'm gonna describe to you how I just interpret this based on what you said, 'cause something cracked me up that you said, Tony. If I were gonna make this meme just based on how you opened that up, the first panel would be like Drake pushing away the idea or being like, "That's no good," book club. The second one would be reading group, as in like, like the reading group is like the new cool way of like just kind of... Did I use it properly? Am I close?  [00:11:59] Tony Arsenal: I think the problem with this is that there's like a, there's like an ironic way to use it, and then there's like a more direct way to use it. Mm. Yeah. The direct way would be like some- like Drake's pushing away something that's bad, and he's- Yeah ... like accepting something that's good. That'd be like the direct way. Yes. The more ironic one is where like Drake is pushing away something that's actually pretty, actually pretty good, and he's- Yeah ... accepting the one that's pretty silly. Oh, okay. Um, there's a lot of memes that have that basic format. Never mind. There's one with like Jordi LaForge. I think there's a Michael Scott one. I tried. I tried. But yeah, no, I, I think yours is valid, it's just, I think it's an older usage of the meme. That's like the, that's like the middle English version of that meme. The Shakespearean use of that meme.  [00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I'll take that. It's the old English style. I love a good book club or a reading group. A, a reading group just, it does have that sound like maybe somebody in the group has a monocle, or you guys have tea. Either way- Yeah ... I absolutely love it. And yes, what are our beautiful quotes. You kind of hear that general conception recapitulated among like theologians almost in every era. But it does make you think, what would Bavinck say about, like doom scrolling on the smartphone? Like- Yeah ... he's beside himself, right? It would just be beside himself. So I'm with you. I, it, there's gonna be a condemnation in every generation. Maybe I say this with some degree of like chronological snobbery, especially in ours, when it comes to not, like you said, I think kind of like not carving out or not prioritizing time in the scriptures. Yeah. There's not gonna be any excuse of like, "Well, I just didn't have time." Right. Or, "There were too many things to read." It's just, it's not gonna cut it. So I'm with you. I think you and I have talked about this at length, even just like the news media like you and I consume, like just s- set aside social media for a second. Just like how i- how much value is there in a lot of like what we cons- used to consider to be like well-informed reporting? How valuable is that to us? Yeah. And I'm certainly not saying like that everybody should be like unconcerned and uninterested in the world, but I think it's to what degree and what fascination we have with that, and how it fits into our priority as we consume information each day. That's the thing that's tricky, and there's no really-  [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:14:02] Jesse Schwamb: good answer except to weigh out with the spiritual discernment- Yeah ... how we ought to consume that stuff. But certainly I think, without question, we need to be prioritizing time in prayer, time in the scriptures. I imagine if we were all doing that with a great deal of attention, that all of the other things would kind of find their way into the right place. Or let's say they would just find their way out of our lives in a significant way- Yeah ... that would remove us from distraction and anxiety, instead bring us back into the providence of God.  [00:14:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not gonna be the guy that tells you you can never s- you can never scroll Instagram or TikTok or whatever. Um, I, I think that's a decision that's between you and the Holy Spirit as far as how you spend your time. But I, I do think, um, I think you're right- We are accountable for the decisions we make and how- Right ... we choose to divide up our time. And I- God, I mean, God is the inventor of fun. He's the inventor of leisure, and he is, uh, I think he's pleased and honored when we, we make good use of our time f- for things that are restful and rejuvenating. Um, he doesn't expect us to just slavishly read scripture all day, every day, like every minute. That's not, that's not the biblical expectation. Um, and so I think it's fine if you wanna sit down and watch a fun show, or if you wanna watch some YouTube videos, or listen to a silly podcast, or listen to a serious podcast. Um, but I do, I agree. Like, we, we really need to be thoughtful. And I think where, where Bavinck's quote, uh, is strong is it's not so much about, "Don't read these things." Right. He, he's talking about these things consume our every blink. Like, m- he's treating blink... He's using the word blink as sort of a fill-in for like our, our finite resource of time and attention, and these things have consumed all of them. There's a very strong use of that word consume. Uh, and I, I think that's really the, the point that I'm trying to make is we often allow, either intentionally or unintentionally, we, we just let our time get all sucked up, uh, on things that maybe are good but are not pr- properly proportioned. Um- Like I said, it's, it's fine to spend some time on Twitter and to get into a debate once in a while, or to check in on your friends on Facebook, your old high school, college buddies or whatever, but we can definitely take it too far. So I think it's a good corrective for all of us to at least make a stop and think about how we're spending our time, and whether we are affording the appropriate amount of time to things like scripture, theological study, catechesis of our children, um, family worship, all of those good things. So we don't have to go much more into that. I think the point has been made. Uh, so Jesse, what are you affirming and/or denying tonight?  [00:16:43] Affirm Puritan Anxiety Cure [00:16:43] Jesse Schwamb: Perfect segue, because speaking of reading old things, you know me, I've always got some kind of Puritan work in the rotation, and the one I just finished is the one I'm affirming, which is called Special Providence for Anxious Souls by Obadiah Sedgwick, who I think is kinda... Like, people are sleeping on Sedgwick, you know? Mm-hmm. He's, he's kinda like, he's there in the wings, but we need to take him off the bench. And I came across this book and I thought, "Who doesn't want a title like that in their lives?" Like, we got some anxiety in all of our souls. And I'm affirming this because, uh, hi- his definitions, his writing is, are on point. But here's what I thought. I was embarrassed that I picked this up expecting one thing, and then in typical puritanical fashion, was delivered something else that was far better. And I was thinking about this title as you might see it, like, in your modern bookstore today, whether it's, like, in Barnes & Nobles or at any of the periodicals we were just kind of mentioning or implying that are out there. And I was expecting to get some kind of, I don't know, six or seven things, I mean, that's Puritan style, but six or seven things that would really help you diagnose the psychology, and then going back to the scripture in ways, all, all the ways we'd expect about how God loves us and cares for us, and all those things are true. And yet the only way I could describe how this book ministered to me is, like, how you might go to a physical therapist for some kind of ailment, which I have many as I get older, and have recently been to one. And the ailment I had was, um, basically like tarsal tunnel, which is like carpal tunnel for your foot. And so there was some nerves that were inflamed and causing some pain and some weirdness in my feet. And here's what I do know about physical therapy now that I think the Puritans also do for our souls, and that is the physical therapist gave me this full workup. They prodded me and poked me and rubbed things and made things hurt- And in the course of doing that, they clearly could figure out what was wrong with my foot. And so when he gave me the diagnosis, after, again, rubbing that part and, like, doing one of those things where he's like, you know, they tap on your hard and they're like, "Does that hurt?" I'm like, "Yes, it does hurt." And I presume that's because you know anatomy. And, you know, he's, he's ta- tapping on my ankle and it's causing my foot underneath to hurt. And after all that, you know, I run on a treadmill. He d- takes all this video, and this is what he says to me. He goes, "Yeah, so this is actually pretty straightforward." And I was like, "Great, so what are we talking about? Like exercises, uh, splints, like massage?" He's like, "You have a weak butt." And I was like- "I'm sorry, let's talk about that for a second." And this is what I've learned about physical therapy, is it's rarely about the thing that's actually bothering you or the thing that's hurt, right? It's something- Yeah ... far different. It's something almost seemingly, like, disjointed or removed or divorced from the very thing, maybe even non-contiguous, if only in our minds, maybe even logically. And so what I love about this is the first half of the book is just speaking about the province of God before it even gets into this idea of anxiety. And then the treatment on anxiety and worry is, he goes through, like, six or seven things in particular, are just absolutely glorious. So good that I want you to read it. I don't even want to talk about it. Uh, that, that's my admonishment to you, is that you should just go pick it up. So I'm affirming again that the Puritans in particular do this thing where there's, there's no cheap advice here. It's not even hide advice. It's really good advice, but it's the kind that says, "You have a weak butt" when you're concerned that your ankle- is messed up. Yeah. And that's sometimes what you need to hear. And in my case, after... Let's make this super weirdly spiritual. After doing a bunch of squats, I don't know what the spiritual equivalent is of that. After doing a bunch of squats, my ankle and my foot was so much better. And it, because I had somebody who cared enough for me to go through and actually diagnose the root of it, that was the reason that inevitably there was healing. So I've, this has given me so much to think about, this tiny little treatise. So much to put into practice. It's so rich, so good, so practical, and yet I think you'll find in many ways joyfully unexpected. So I highly affirm to everybody listening, and even those who aren't, Special Providence for Anxious Souls, Obadiah Sedgwick. You'll, you'll love it  [00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:49] Physical Therapy Spiritual Practice [00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: So two thoughts. Uh, one, uh, I can confirm Jesse has a weak butt, um, flat as a board. So it's probably, probably better after, after doing some squats. Wow. Uh, two- Wow. ... uh, I can say I also am in some physical therapy right now, and I've been a little bit of a slacker. And what I will contribute to the conversation is just like in physical therapy, they can give you all of the exercises- Yeah uh, that you want. If you don't do the work, you're not going to get better. Yeah. And so whether it's Jesse doing squats or me not finding time to stretch and to do some, like, arm exercises with a, with a s- uh, like a TheraBand, uh, the same holds true. And, and maybe to unify our, uh, affir- our denials/affirmations into one mega, mega recommendation, um, the same holds true in that, one, we can take a book like this from, uh, Sedgwick, and we can turn it into the same thing we do with media where we're just... it's just devouring our blinks. Right. And we're just using it as a way to sort of, like, feed our eye hole Get better. You won't improve. Um, and that's actually the same with scripture. Like y-you can- Right ... turn scripture into, uh, into a snack food that you, you don't actually use to be nutritious. Um, I think there's probably more benefit to reading scripture sort of rote and, and almost mechanically than there is to reading anything else. But, um, but at the end of the day, you can also consume your blinks with scripture and not get a lot out of it if all you're doing is passing your eyes over text. So get in there. I think that's great. I haven't read that one. I mean, I think there's... I think there are probably many, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many, many Puritan treaties that- treatises that are similar in theme and tone and have the same kind of like spiritual antidote or spiritual medicine, um, prescribed by these guys that is good and wholesome. And again, like, like you're saying, like it's not that complicated. It's not that hard. Right. It just takes- Right ... you just actually have to do the work. Um, it's funny, my physical therapy thing is my, my shoulder has been really ba- really messed up, and I went in, I expected him to give me all these, all these shoulder exercises, and he's like, "Uh Really what you need to do is you fix your neck, uh, 'cause your shoulder is, is being in- injured because you're sleeping- Okay on that side because you're trying to stay off the other side. So, like, you really gotta fix your neck so you can sleep on the other side of your body. And I was like, "So I'm just, like, sleeping wrong?" Like, it's funny, there's a joke, it's like in your 20s you can do anything you want, in your 30s, like, you gotta be a little bit careful, and in your 40s, like, you hurt yourself just sleeping. Right. Just getting out of bed is dangerous.  [00:23:46] Jesse Schwamb: It's  [00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: true.  [00:23:47] Jesse Schwamb: It's true. So. It's a tough world. But  [00:23:48] Tony Arsenal: it's true. I feel like a really old man saying that.  [00:23:51] Read Matthew 25 Aloud [00:23:51] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me that you're right, of course, that there's so much here we always have to put into practice. There's so much here that we have to trust with God. There's a faith that works. And so I think actually that is the most lovely inroad into this final passage of Matthew, because there's a lot here for us to talk about with all of those things, and to understand it in this proper context. So as you've already set us up, Tony, the best part of our podcast is the scripture, for sure, 100%. So let's go there. So we're in Matthew 25 in case you're just joining us. And for some reason I went into, like, a full radio mode, as if this, like, this is being broadcast live, and you just came into the program. We're in Matthew 25, uh, starting in verse 31, and I'm gonna read until the end of the chapter. There's so much here that of course we're not gonna get to all of it, but in the spirit of literally having the full context of the scripture in front of us, and to hear it all, I think it's important. It w- b- better yet, you should go back and read the entire chapter and then tune in right now. But let me start at verse 31. "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me.  [00:25:32] Judgment Scene Read [00:25:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?" And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angers-- angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they will themselves also answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life  [00:26:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:26:49] Parable Not Fear [00:26:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a sobering passage. And just as I think we've seen in a lot of the other parables, um These eschatological parables and these eschatological sayings of Christ, uh, as you kind of alluded to earlier, I, I think they are really, really, um... They are not prone to being misinterpreted. Right. The church has been prone to misinterpreting and misapplying these, um, in a, in a way that's used to make, make the Christian fearful and to, uh, undermine their assurance rather than to call them to action or to accountability.  [00:27:33] Why It's A Parable [00:27:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I think a- as I've been reading through this and I've been sort of glancing at the Greek as we're reading, I actually think I'm on... I, I stumbled on much more better ground to treat this as a parable than I even originally thought I did. You know, I, I had this whole lead-up that this isn't technically a parable, but when you read here, when it says, in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in glory and the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates- Right ... the sheep from the goats." If you go back to verse 14, when it says, "For it will be like a man," uh, that, that first word of verse 14 in the Greek is the same word as is used when it says, um, uh, "He separates people one from another as a shepherd." That same word is used as there, it's just translated differently because of where it comes in the, um, in the text. So Christ is still making this comparison, so it would be as though he said, um, you know, like the common, most common, at least so far, most common kind of parabolic introduction is like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like." Um, this is the same basic language he's using here to introduce what the eschaton will be like. Right? The ga- the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them. It says people in the ESV, but will separate them one from another. You could also say the, the nations or the peoples will be gathered before him. Right. He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep. So the parable here is the s- the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats, this whole process of the separation and this, this, um, frankly, like it's, it feels and smells like a parable, right? It does. This, this, um, figure, this shepherd in the parable or the shepherd in the saying is saying these sort of like parabolic statements. He's using this language that's kind of like shocking punchline statement. Like we've talked about how in parables there's often this sort of unexpected turn of events, or there's this unexpected kind of shocking language, and this whole like twist at the end in both, sort of both s- chunks here, where like the sheep don't really understand, like they didn't really recognize that they were doing sheepy things, and the goats didn't really understand that they were being goats. That's like the parabolic twist or the parabolic punchline here. So the, the kingdom of heaven is like, basically it's like the Son of Man will come in his glory and it will be like this. It will be like a shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. That's the parabolic connection here. Mm-hmm. So I actually think that, that linguistically we're on, we're on pretty solid ground not just to treat this as a summary of all the parables, um- I think of for sure these three parables, but it, it really is like the master parable, and I think probably the master parable that kinda governs and constrains and explains all of the parabolic ministry of Christ. So I'm, I'm stoked for us to really dig into the details a little bit, but I think linguistically we're on super good ground to, to treat this as a parable. I agree. At the very least, it's stronger than just parable adjacent.  [00:30:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:30:44] Tony Arsenal: It- but even if we aren't saying it's a parable proper, it's stronger than that. It still is using this kinda comparative ministry, comparative language that Christ has used throughout the parabolic, um, sayings of Christ.  [00:30:57] Jesse Schwamb: The construction seems a little bit less veiled because here we have Jesus implanting himself directly into the account.  [00:31:03] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm.  [00:31:04] Shepherd Imagery Stakes [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: At the same time, though, he's drawing on all the things you just said he does, especially with this allusion to shepherding, which would've been, of course, common throughout. So it seems to me a lovely bridge to all of the overt parables he's just told, but now he's bringing them all together and placing himself clearly as, like, the interpreter, as the identifier of all the things, as the one to seal up all of the edges, as it were. So it's clear that this is about the end times. All of these were all about the end times and about Jesus' role in them. And so of course here he identifies himself as the eschatological judge just to make it clear. He's the one who sits on his glorious throne, and that's significant, and that's why I think we sometimes feel like, well, this is not a parable because he's, he's being very, like, Christologically certain and direct here. You know, throughout scripture the final judgment is God's prerogative alone, but the Father has committed all that judgment to the Son, and here's Jesus affirming that. And so again, like Reformed theology, in all our conversations we've consistently emphasized that this text is in many ways, like, proof of Christ's full deity and his role as mediatorial king, and he's exercising his office as the judge at his return in glory. And though, like you said, at the same time, here's the cool parable kind of scent or flavor is you get all these nations, every person who has ever lived, not merely Israel or merely the church. And how does Jesus describe this? He goes back into parabolic language. And we got the shepherd imagery that- Yeah is, like, similar to Ezekiel 34 where God himself is judging between the sheep of his flock. And that separation, the shockingness of it, it's immediate, it's binary. There's no third category. There's only two eternal destinies. There's no purgatory, no middle ground, no post-mortem opportunity for repentance. So all that's at stake. And then again, the beauty of the language itself or the setup of the construction of the story as it unfolds is that both groups- Get the same speech with a change in do or do not, but they both ask the same question from, like, wildly different perspectives and standings. And that's the beautiful- Yeah thing to make reconciliation over is what does all this mean then? How is all this established and how is this final judgment come to be such that there are sheep and goats if, in fact, they're both doing the same things theoretically, or they're at least both asking the same questions of, well, when did this ever actually occur? That, that's what's for us to unpack either way.  [00:33:29] All Nations Gathered [00:33:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and b- before we jump into, um, into the parable itself and start to unpack that, the other element that I think is worth, uh, and this just came to me so hopefully I'm not on too far of a, of a limb here. But the other element that I think is worth at least commenting on, um, we've, we've remarked, especially in these last three eschatological, um, parables, how much these are directed at the religious leaders, right? Right. The, the, the people are, um, the, the- the parables are told, um, in the context and sort of following up on these, this real directed, um, assault against the religious leaders who thought they were the ones, right? They're the ones that have a claim to the Kingdom of Heaven, they're the ones that, um, are the, you know, they're the ones that think they're doing the right thing, they're the ones that are ushering in God's kingdom. This little phrase here, "gathered all the nations," would also have really stuck in the craw of the religious leaders, right? Because the word for nations that's translated here is the same word that would el- elsewhere get translated as Gentiles, right? And the word people, when it says, "He will separate the people," that, that word people doesn't actually exist in the Greek. So if you translate this very literally, it'd say, "Before him will, will be gathered all nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Now, I don't wanna go the route of saying, like, this is a parable about, like, which pe- people group will be brought into the kingdom and which won't, and I've read some that go that direction. I don't wanna go there. But this idea that, like, even in the final judgment, the people who are in view here are the Gentiles, right? Right. I think most Jewish, particularly the, the Pharisees and the Sadducees hearing this, would've, would've read this and would've read ta ethnos, and would not have thought nations the way we do. Certainly would not have thought of, like, modern nation states. They might have been thinking maybe, like, people groups in general, but they would be thinking more along the lines of, like, Psalm, Psalm 2, like, "Why do the nations rage?" kind of nations. Why do the Gentiles rage? Why do the peoples plot in vain? They would've been thinking th- this, this, uh, judgment almost, at least on the face of it, almost excludes the Jews entirely when you think about it this way. It's really now sort of, like, zooming out where at the very least, at the minimal least, the Jews are just another people group within this broader judgment of the people group. Right. So again, like, we've seen this theme that Christ is continually expanding the scope of what is considered to be the Kingdom of Heaven to include not just the Jewish people, um, but all nations, all people groups, all Gentiles and Jews alike. And in a very real sense, um, and I wanna be careful how I've said this, I know I've commented this in the past, there's a very real sense of anti-Semitism that is prominent in- reform, quote-unquote reformed circles right now that is just vile and disgusting and sinful, and has no place in any sort of Biblical Christianity. But there is a reality that the Jewish people, broadly speaking, um, rejected the Messiah, at least while he was here on Earth. Um, relatively speaking, very few Jewish people, especially in the Jewish elite, like the leadership class, accepted Christ for who he was while he was here. Many Jews came to faith through the ministry of Peter, uh, and, and even through the ministry of Paul, even though he was an apostle to the Gentiles. So it's not as though it remained the case, but at this point in Christ's ministry, the Jewish people were by and large were rejecting him as Messiah. And so this idea and, and sort of this like final culmination now saying like he gathered all the, all the Gentiles, all of the peoples, all of the nations. In Jewish, in Jewish language and, and when you look in the Old Testament, and even in some of the New Testament literature, the nations were those people out there. So even if we don't translate this as Gentiles, we don't, we don't take that more like restrictive sense, even then it still implies that Christ is talking about people out there, the non-Jewish nations- Right are being gathered before his throne. And so that's not to say, absolutely not to say that the Jewish people, that, that the Jewish people of his day or the, the... This is where it gets tricky too, 'cause like we think about modern Israel and we, we import our understandings of like nation states. That's not what was in view here. The, the idea of a modern nation state was not a concept that existed in the first century. Um, you might have something like city states, but even that is kind of like a little bit ethereal. The idea here is that all people groups, and maybe, maybe we conceptualize Israel now as one of these people groups, the Israeli Jewish people as one of these people groups. All of those people groups, Jews, Gentiles, Scythians, Athenians, Spartans, like, uh, Ethiopians, you know, all of these different people- Right ... groups that are mentioned in the, the New Testament, all of those peoples, all of those nations are gathered before the throne, and then he will separate them one from another in the same way that a shepherd sep- separates the goats. [00:38:35] Group Judgment Assurance [00:38:35] Tony Arsenal: And yes, I think there is an individualistic, um, judgment element, and this is where I think, um... And, and then I'll, I'll pause for a second. This is where I think we can go wrong reading this as a parable about the individual judgment of individuals in the future That's not really what the language here is supporting. This is supporting sort of a broader group-based judgment, and the grouping is there are those who are sheep and there are those who are goats. But it doesn't appear as though Christ is saying like, "I'm evaluating each individual person, and this person is a sheep, this person is a goat." It's, it's a broader picture that, yes, has some implications for individual personal judgment, but when we read too much of that individual personal judgment into this parable that doesn't seem to be there, that's where we start to, like, rob individual Christians of their assurance. We start to say, like, "Did you do enough? Did you feed enough poor people or did you not?" That's not really, not really what's at stake here, I don't think.  [00:39:40] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's definitely not. It's, it's important to remember just the beauty of, like, the consistent theological thread that runs all the way through the Old Testament, and then that we might expect, of course, to be manifest in Christ's teachings, which happen exactly here. So he is going all the way back to that covenantal promise seed through Abraham, single seed, many people groups, many ethnicities. In this way, the gospel is ethnic inclusive. And so it is, why wouldn't he say that in this way to express that this is exactly from all time what God wanted to do is gather all people groups to himself? Which means then by the time we get to the end of this chapter in verse 46, and there is this righteousness that... or the righteous that lead or go into eternal life, then of course we're led to believe here either directly or implicitly that that means that there would be some for whom the Pharisees would find it's, like, anathema to receive that kind of righteousness and eternal life are the ones in fact who are getting it. And so even that is scandalous. So the, the whole thing is very much a setup, and I think it's the confusion again of this is Jesus saying again to the Sadducees, like, "You are confused. You do not know the power of God. You, you search for it everywhere else but do not find it in front of you. It, it's he who speak to you. I am he. You think you search the scriptures, but you do not know." Everywhere it feels like he's saying that, and here also he's saying that again, but it's in the setup. And I'm with you. I think that there would've been a lot here that would've, like, just come right off his lips that would've been like, "Say what?" Uh, that would've been, like, offensive right off- Yeah ... the top.  [00:41:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:41:17] Sovereign Separation [00:41:17] Tony Arsenal: And the other, the other theme that plays out really loud and clear here, um, as we start to dig into this is, um, there's a sovereignty to this separation that is baked into, um, the king's right to decide who to keep and who to cast away. Right. So I think we, we, um, understandably read into this an assessment of the productivity or the profitability or somehow the, like, merit or worth of the sheep as contrasted to the worth of the goats. Um, and we read into it like the sheep have utility and the goats don't, so the goats get cast into the- Right outer darkness. That's not really, that's not really what's going on here, right? In a, in an agrarian society, like sheep and goats both have utility. It's not as though, like, sheep are worthless and goats aren't. There's a reason people have goats. Um, th- the, the issue here is that the king has decided that there are those on his right and there are those on his left, and the ones on his right he's gonna keep, and the ones on his left he's gonna cast away. And, and so, um, there's this sovereign election and determination that precedes the rest of this, right? It's not as though he's ... And this is where the personal, sort of personal assessment part comes in. He doesn't look at a person and go, "All right, you did a g- enough good works to qualify as a sheep, so you go ahead and go over-" Right and be a sheep. And you didn't do quite enough, so you're actually a goat, so you go over and you be a goat." He looks at, he says, "Y- sheep, goat. Goat, sheep." You know, he, he's separating them out, and then he describes what sheep do versus what goats do. And I, I, like I'm even drawing some of this language out. The sheep goats part of this is actually only, like, a verse and a half. He then flips out of this parabolic language to now go back to the sort of strictly predictive eschatological ex- like explanatory language. So this is what it's like when the Son of Man is on, on his kingdom. He separates sheep and goats. We read into, and maybe with some good reason, but we read into Uh, we read into the fact that the sheeps go to one side, the goats go to another. Then we sort of like attribute the characteristics of those who go to his right to sheep, and we attribute the characteristics... And I think we do this the wrong way. How many sermons have you heard where the whole sermon is about how sheep are obedient, and they're, they're affable, and they listen, and they, they, they are sweet and kind, and goats are stubborn, and they, they just wreck everything, and they don't listen, right? And how many s- how many sermons have you heard where they talk about, like, well, sheep and goats really look the same in the Middle Eastern context, and the only way you can tell them apart is what, by what they do? I think there's probably some, uh, benefit to thinking through those elements, but Christ does not make that point in this parable- Mm ... at least not directly, right? He said, "This is the activity. Imagine a man who has sheep and he has goats. He takes the sheep, he puts them on one side. He takes the goats on another side." That's what the separation at the end of the time, at the end of time will be like. Then he goes straight back out of the parable language into saying, "This is how the king will actually make the distinction.  [00:44:29] Predestination Before Works [00:44:29] Tony Arsenal: The ones on his left, or on his right, he will say, 'Come, you're blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'" Right? This is predestination language, not eschatological judgment language. The sheep were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Before they did anything bad or didn't do anything good, they were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Then he says, he explains to them, like the context that, as you said before, that reveals that they were sheep all along. [00:45:02] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:02] Tony Arsenal: It shows them that they were already... Man, I just, just made this connection in my head. This is the parable of the wheat and of the tares- Yep ... coming to fruition- Exactly ... at the end of time. Right. Right? The sheep and the goats were allowed to mingle until the time came when they would be separated, just as the wheat and the tares were allowed to grow up until the time when they would be reaped and separated. This is what's going on. The sheep did things that sheep do. Those on the right did the things that the people on the right would do because they were part of God's blessed kingdom all along.  [00:45:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:35] Tony Arsenal: And then he goes on to explain what the people on the left did not do, not because now they've been put on the left because they didn't do it, but they were shown to have always been a part of that, part of that population. They were always goats because of these things. This shows that they were goats all along, and they did these things or failed to do these things because they were goats all along.  [00:45:58] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:45:59] Works Righteousness Trap [00:45:59] Jesse Schwamb: Let me read another verse. "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do." My guess is everybody was with me- ... sounded kind of okay until that last part. And if you had that, like, as we say, like, that theological muscle memory that just made you flex or bristle there, or you had the Spidey Sense, as you say, Tony, good, because that's from 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon. And here's what I wanna say that's shocking, is if we read this passage of scripture that we're talking about as if there's something there that we need to do that proves that we've done enough and that somehow God will be pleased with that, even at the end of time in some small way, some modicum, then we're actually acting way more like Mormons than we are like Christians. That's just the bottom line. Yeah. Because Mormons, if you ask about this verse, rather than try to qualify that last statement by saying, "Well, that's misunderstood," or, "It's really not after all you can do," because of course it begs the question how do you know that you've done enough? How you don't- you've done all the things and that you're, you're exhausted. Their explanation of this is to double down on it and say, "Well, the context of that verse is following verse 23 actually does emphasize salvation only coming through Christ, but it also encourages continued observance of the law of Moses in order to be reconciled to God." Because that's all they could do until Christ fulfilled the law through his atonement. Even that is nonsense. So all of this to say, we have to be careful with this because I, I think you're right. We're aligning, we're running right up on this, and that is I would submit to you that we just get distracted because we always, of course, want to bring something to the party here. The, the salvation cake. We wanna, I don't know, we wanna make it, we wanna do. But God is doing all the things on our behalf. And so as a result of that, I think this parable is actually, it's about the divine prerogative and the agency of Christ in judgment at the end which belongs to him and him alone, and not about these actions. But we get caught up in the actions and we're missing this thri- divine prerogative. I also think that Christ gives this to us to reverse it on us and to show us that he sets about all things. It is in fact his foreordination and his providence. By grace we have been saved through faith, and that in providence being predestined is an act of his great love. And so this shows the extent of that love because those whom he has chosen himself are asking in disbelief as if to say, "When did I do the good works that you required?" And he said, "Well, you didn't because you could never do them apart from me."  [00:48:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:48:38] Jesse Schwamb: And so really that's the whole point. It's just so easy for us to get it twisted and say, "Well, doesn't it make sense that there are two groups?" Well, certainly there are in this passage. And doesn't it make good sense that because he said they did things or they didn't do things, then I just need to be about doing those things. And I think that is unfortunately the adventure in missing the point in this passage.  [00:48:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree 100%. And it's funny 'cause you were reading that and I was like What translation of J- of First John is it? It sound, I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like something you'd read in First John It sounds okay  [00:49:09] Jesse Schwamb: until  [00:49:10] Tony Arsenal: the end. Yeah. No, I mean, like, it literally sounds like First John until- Yeah ... you get to that last part.  [00:49:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:49:15] Tony Arsenal: And, and I think you're right that, um, we'll, we'll explore this more next week, but what has always struck me about this passage is that the, the p- the, the people on His right, I've gotta stop saying sheep, because that's... I just made the point that that's not really what's going on. The people on His right who are called into the kingdom because it was prepared for them before the foundation, because they were elected unto that kingdom. The people on His right, they're surprised at the fact that they did these things. And it, I, I think the works righteousness way of reading this is like, "You better earn your salvation. You better get at it because if you haven't fed Jesus in disguise, then you just aren't gonna make it. At the end of the day- Mm ... He's gonna say, 'I never knew you.'" And it, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes I think intentionally, it implies that we, uh, that Jesus comes to know us because we've done good works, right? When we say, "If you don't do these things, then Jesus will say, 'I never knew you,'" then what you're saying is Jesus doesn't know you apart from your good works. Right. And what the Bible says, what this passage says, just right on the face of it, is that the Kingdom of Heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, or who the Father has elected, who are blessed by the Father before the foundation of the world. Now, obviously the Father had to know those people in some sense-  [00:50:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:50:43] Tony Arsenal: right ... before the foundation of the world in order for them to be blessed by Him and for Him to prepare a kingdom. So then to come back to the end of it and say, "Well, there are some of those, uh, who the Father never knew because they didn't do enough work," well, the problem is that those who did the good work, the Father knew before they did the good works. They didn't merit the good works. I mean- Right ... it's funny you, you bring up the, the Mormons, and that's certainly true, but, like, you could substitute in, at least on this regard, right? There are meaningful, important differences between the groups I'm about to say and Mormons, that would be the dividing line between those who are possibly saved and those who are y- definitely not saved, right? You could substitute Arminians, who wanna say God looks down the corridor of time, and the reason He prepared a kingdom in advance for them from the foundation of the world is 'cause He saw that they would do these things that would merit salvation, or He saw that they would make the proper decision to receive His grace, right? Or Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodoxes in a different sense, but similarly who would say like, "Well, yeah, God knows in advance that you're gonna merit salvation, so He prepared- Right ... this kingdom anticipating your merit that you would contribute or your participation or, or whatever." I think in a certain sense, um, you could even apply this to some Lutheran theology, right? Which would say, like, "Well, God prepared this kingdom for you from the foundation of the world because he looked down the corridor of time and he understood that you were not going to resist the grace he gave," right? You were not gonna reject his grace. Um, it really truly only is Reformed theology that can say, "No, God prepared this kingdom in advance for you, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did, such that you made the wise decision to follow Christ that you did. That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you." A- and aga- again, again, like, this is dicey. It gets into, like, logical ordering, but fundamentally, a- as far as I can understand it, every competing view besides sort of a Calvinistic understanding of predestination election has to say that in some sense God prepares the kingdom for you as a response to something you have done, or chose- Right to do or chose not to do. The reality is that this passage is saying, "No To those who are on the right. He didn't separate them based on the fact that they did these things. He just said, "You are on the right, and now to those who are on the right, I say to you, come into the kingdom that is blessed. You're blessed by my Father. Come into this kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world." So I think, you know, we're c

In this episode, James and Gray discuss the new book The Essential Herman Bavinck: A Reader and Commentary.Bavinck, Herman. The Essential Herman Bavinck: A Reader and Commentary. Edited by Gayle E. Doornbos and Nathaniel Gray Sutanto. Baker Academic, a division of Baker Publishing Group, 2026. https://bakeracademic.com/products/9781540968487_the-essential-herman-bavinckReach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

In the second half of our post-Synod conversation, Zack Flipse and Jason move from how Synod 2026 felt to what it means for the work ahead. There's encouragement, but there are also some concerns. The biggest thread here is a worry both share: the CRC has an exciting church planting vision, but plant churches poorly and you can do damage to the denomination. Reformation isn't just about doing more; it's about doing it in a way that fits our ecclesiology. That's why Zack keeps half-joking that we need a study committee on ecclesiology, and why he's unembarrassed to say it: "I want to be part of a denomination that's doing theology." From there the conversation ranges widely. They name the three streams of the CRC—confessionalist, pietist, transformationalist—and make the case that the church is stronger for holding all three. They look ahead to the Christian nationalism study report, arguing the Dutch Reformed tradition is uniquely equipped to speak here, with Kuyper and Bavinck in our own lineage—so long as we actually do the theology rather than just point back to it. And they return to Jason's hobby horse since day one: a denomination is healthy when local churches are engaged, not when they outsource their convictions to Grand Rapids. Zack shares the kids' Heidelberg Catechism project he makes with his daughters—question one, "What gives you comfort? That I belong to Jesus"—because instead of complaining that the resource didn't exist, he decided to build it. Then Jason gives him the final word, and Zack delivers the line that names the whole vision: "Figure out what you can do to plant a church so that more people worship Jesus tomorrow than worship Him today. Let's plant some churches." Timestamps: 0:00 — Recap: naming gifts and raising up leaders 2:15 — Satellite options and the uneasiness around multi-site churches 4:01 — The ecclesiology study committee that didn't pass 5:07 — "I want to be part of a denomination that's doing theology" 6:39 — Planting churches well: the danger of doing it poorly 7:55 — Discouragements: pressure to skip process 9:22 — "We found out in 2022": differences in how we read Scripture 10:35 — The three minds: confessionalist, pietist, transformationalist 12:04 — The Christian nationalism study report and our tradition 12:39 — Why the Dutch Reformed are uniquely equipped: Kuyper and Bavinck 21:30 — A healthy denomination means local churches engaged 23:03 — An overture on categories for church membership 23:38 — Unified worship vs. faithful contextualization 26:51 — Zack's kids' Heidelberg Catechism on YouTube 30:48 — The Little Heidelberg Catechism and resourcing parents 31:44 — Final word: let's plant some churches Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Chris Ganski and Derek Buikema join Jason to talk about the overture out of Classis Wisconsin to Synod 2026 calling for a study committee on the nature of the church. It is not a flashy overture. It is not addressing a fight. But Chris and Derek argue it might be the most important overture on the floor — because every other ecclesiastical conversation in the denomination right now is happening at one or two levels of abstraction away from a question we have quietly stopped asking out loud: what is a church? They trace the overture back through ten years of the company-of-pastors conversations, name the drift of American pragmatism through CRC life, and make the case that a generation has grown up assuming everyone knew what a church was — and now nobody is sure. The conversation does not stay in diagnosis. Chris keeps the bar for the study committee low and the vision serious: force a theological conversation. Recover Calvin's deep ecclesiology — election, the church as creature of the Word, the sacraments, the ministry of the Word. Derek's contribution is to remind the denomination what study committees actually do. They frame conversations. Children at the Lord's Table did. Human Sexuality did. A serious, theological study committee on the church will do the same — without requiring a controversy to do it. The pivot of the episode is Derek's image: a faithful pastor knows when to fight and when to garden. The CRC has been fighting for a decade. It is past time to also garden. Then Chris turns to Calvin as a model. Calvin was a refugee. He fled France at twenty-five, landed in Geneva, and was forever an outsider. That experience shaped his ecclesiology. He invented the consistory. He gave the modern diaconate its shape. He sent church planters into France for forty years. Reformed mission did not come out of pragmatism. It came out of a refugee's deep theology of what the church is. Chris closes with a pastoral word for tired pastors and anxious elders: the church is founded in God's election. Whether the church survives is not finally on us. Believe that. Lead from that. That is what reformation looks like. Timestamps: 0:00 — Introduction 3:19 — Origin of the overture: ten years of the company of pastors 5:01 — Why a study committee, not another task force 6:27 — Synod 2025 itself asked for this work 6:55 — How we got here: the drift toward American pragmatism 9:22 — Calvin, Bavinck, Kuyper — the resources we have forgotten 9:57 — John Cooper: pragmatic arguments used to lose at Synod 11:17 — Nine Marks in New England and the hunger for ecclesiology 14:22 — A low bar: just force a theological conversation 16:28 — Virtual communion, virtual baptism, and forgetting the sacraments 18:44 — The faithful doing flows from the faithful being 22:14 — Church vs ministry: when church planting becomes community development 26:36 — The catechism caricature: living theology, not rote memorization 29:52 — Tradition vs traditionalism (Pelikan) 31:05 — Ezekiel by the Chebar: church without land, king, or temple 33:26 — Sexuality crisis revealed the deeper unrootedness 35:43 — How a study committee actually shapes a denomination 41:48 — From fighting phase to building phase 42:21 — Knowing when to fight and when to garden 44:13 — Struggling churches default to pragmatism 45:00 — Calvin the refugee: an exilic ecclesiology that planted churches 47:43 — Final word: the church is founded in God's election Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Intro music by Matt Krotzer

Recorded live at the Kuyper Conference in Grand Rapids, this episode features a conversation with Greg Parker Jr., a theologian and scholar of Herman Bavinck, reflecting on his academic journey, current work in theological education, and research in neo-Calvinism. Parker discusses his engagement with Abraham Kuyper's pastoral theology, particularly his exposition of the Heidelberg Catechism and the Lord's Prayer, highlighting themes of ascent and descent as a framework for understanding prayer, the Christian life, and communion with God. The conversation also explores the importance of translating and retrieving Bavinck's works for the church, the pastoral dimension of systematic theology, and the need for careful theological engagement with contemporary questions such as human identity, bioethics, and artificial intelligence. If you enjoy this episode, you can access tons of content just like this at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wm.wts.edu⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you would like to join us in our mission to train specialists in the bible to proclaim the whole counsel of God for Christ and his global church, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wts.edu/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Thanks for listening!

Derek Rishmawy, James Wood, and Joe Minick trace the nature-grace debate from de Lubac's challenge to neoscholastic "pure nature" through Blondel, Bavinck, and Betz's Christ the Logos of Creation — asking what's actually at stake: the gratuity of grace, the coherence of theological anthropology, and the twin dangers of secular dualism and pantheist collapse. — Get Spiritual Formation for the Family ebook for free at http://mereorthodoxy.com/family. Mere Fidelity is a podcast from Mere Orthodoxy and is listener-supported. If you would like to support this work, become a Mere Orthodoxy Member today at http://mereorthodoxy.com/membership. Get 30% of the Baker Book of the Month, Keeping Kids Christian: Recovering A Biblical Vision For Lifelong Discipleship, by going to: http://bakerbookhouse.com/pages/mere-fidelity Apply for Beeson Divinity School's Ph.D program by April 1 for Fall 2026 admission here: https://bit.ly/BeesonPhD — Chapters 00:00 - Introduction: Why Nature and Grace? 02:30 - The Debate in Context: Neo-Calvinism, Catholic-Protestant Dialogue, and David Bentley Hart 05:00 - James on De Lubac: Challenging Pure Nature and Extrinsicism 08:30 - Blondel, Desire, and the Political Consequences of Separation 11:30 - Derek's Five-Year-Old Explanation: What Is Actually at Issue 13:30 - Joe: Natural Ends, Supernatural Ends, and the Beatific Vision 16:00 - Steel-Manning the Two-Tier View: Gratuity of Grace 18:30 - Bavinck, the Donum Superadditum, and Terminological Convergence 22:00 - The Neo-Calvinist Peril: Immanentizing the Eschaton 24:00 - Reception History: Did De Lubac Get Thomas Right? 27:00 - Betz, Chavarra, and Philosophy's Openness to Theology 31:00 - Participatory Metaphysics and Non-Competitive Freedom 33:30 - Derek's Worry: The Pantheist Ditch 36:00 - Horton's Trilogy and the Irenaean/Origenist Distinction 39:00 - The Two Ditches: Extrinsic Dualism vs. Pantheistic Monism 43:00 - Desire, Idolatry, and the Hook Into the Real 47:00 - Was the Incarnation Part of the Plan? Creation in Christ 50:00 - Closing Thoughts: Bavinck's Affirmations and Where to Go Next

Recorded live at the Kuyper Conference at Calvin University, this episode features a conversation with Dr. Gray Sutanto, alumnus of Westminster Theological Seminary and professor of systematic theology at RTS Washington, D.C. Sutanto reflects on his academic work in neo-Calvinism, particularly his efforts to retrieve and clarify the theological legacy of figures like Abraham Kuyper and Herman Bavinck. He highlights the coherence between neo-Calvinism and confessional Reformed theology, emphasizing that neo-Calvinism is not reducible to cultural transformationalism or theonomy, but rather represents a historically rooted, theologically rich movement seeking to articulate Christianity as a comprehensive worldview in the modern age. The discussion also explores the nature of theological retrieval, arguing for a model that is both historically grounded and constructively forward-looking. Sutanto outlines how neo-Calvinism exemplifies this balance by drawing deeply from the Reformed tradition while addressing the intellectual and social challenges of modernity—particularly in its articulation of common grace, sphere sovereignty, and the relationship between church and state. The episode concludes with reflections on the reception of neo-Calvinism in English-speaking contexts, the importance of recovering Bavinck's broader corpus, and the ongoing task of cultivating a robust, confessionally rooted theology that speaks meaningfully to contemporary cultural and ecclesial life. If you enjoy this episode, you can access tons of content just like this at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wm.wts.edu⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you would like to join us in our mission to train specialists in the bible to proclaim the whole counsel of God for Christ and his global church, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wts.edu/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Thanks for listening!

This lecture presents a theological exploration of the relationship between grace and nature, arguing that grace does not destroy or negate natural affections and institutions, but rather redeems, perfects, and restores them. Drawing from Scripture, particularly The Lord's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount on loving enemies, the preacher illustrates how Christ's command to love beyond natural boundaries is not a rejection of nature but a supernatural transformation of it. This gracious work enable believers to love even enemies, while preserving the integrity of familial, marital, and civic bonds. Through historical and doctrinal reflections on figures like Aquinas and Bavinck, the teacher affirms that creation is inherently good, sin is a privation rather than an essential feature of humanity, and grace functions as reformation rather than revolution. Grace restores the world to its intended purpose without erasing its natural order. The application of this principle is seen in marriage, vocation, and public morality, where Christian faith enhances rather than abolishes natural duties, transforming ordinary life into a means of worship and service. Ultimately, the lecture calls for a biblical ordering of loves, rooted in God's supremacy yet expressed through redeemed natural relationships, where grace perfects nature, not replaces it.

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In this episode Pastor Raef considers the historic Biblical perspective on the government's responsibility when it comes to crime and punishment which aim to punish criminals, and compares it to modern progressive visions of criminology which seek to pity the criminal and punish the society that created the criminal.  The conversation is largely rooted in Herman Bavinck's work in his Reformed Dogmatics in which he directly tackles this question. For a treatment on this chapter from Bavinck see: https://raefchenery.com/2024/08/06/should-retribution-or-reformation-be-at-the-center-of-our-criminal-justice-system/

During Herman Bavinck's life and for many years afterward, he was well known mainly in the Netherlands, where he was born. But today, people around the world are discovering his writings and realizing their importance. Why is that? In part, it's because Bavinck faced new challenges with honesty and humility, without compromising his Christian beliefs. Today, as we face many new challenges, we can learn a lot from Bavinck. Join Linus, Leia, and Sean as they share their excitement about this great theologian with Dr. John Bolt, professor emeritus of Systematic Theology at Calvin Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Thanks to the generosity of Reformed Fellowship, we are pleased to offer two copies of Herman Bavinck by Simonetta Carr. Enter here to win.   Show Notes: Dr. Bolt had some additional notes about Bavinck to share with our listeners: Bavinck frequently spoke of the gospel as a "pearl of great price" (or treasure) and as a "leaven." The gospel is the most important thing in the world; it brings us into fellowship with God in Christ. But, secondarily, it is also a leaven because it changes individuals and societies. Bavinck also frequently quotes James 1:21: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights in whom there is no changing."  

In this episode of The Westminster Podcast, Brandon McLean Smith is joined again by Brian Selby for a wide-ranging theological conversation on Herman Bavinck, Christology, and the enduring significance of the infralapsarian–supralapsarian debate. Selby explores recent developments in Bavinck scholarship, arguing that Bavinck is far more decisive than often assumed in ordering creation, fall, and redemption with a view to Christ as the telos of all things—while firmly rejecting problematic forms of “incarnation anyway.” Drawing on Bavinck's engagement with Scripture, the Reformed tradition, and his 19th-century theological context, the conversation situates Bavinck as a critical foil to later neo-orthodox developments, particularly Karl Barth. The discussion also broadens to consider theological retrieval and method. Selby and Smith reflect on how Bavinck models a distinctly Reformed approach to engaging modern questions without surrendering confessional commitments—retrieving the tradition without mere repristination, and advancing dogmatics in service of the church's witness in every age. Along the way, they address Christocentrism, revelation, apologetics, and the task of theology in a changing intellectual landscape, offering a compelling vision of how historic Reformed theology can remain faithful, catholic, and intellectually alive today. If you enjoy this episode, you can access tons of content just like this at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wm.wts.edu⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you would like to join us in our mission to train specialists in the bible to proclaim the whole counsel of God for Christ and his global church, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wts.edu/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Thanks for listening!

In this episode, James, Gray, and Marinus continue their series reading and discussing Herman Bavinck's Philosophy of Revelation. This week, they discuss the fourth chapter on “Revelation and Nature.”Read along with us as we walk through the chapters of this significant work.Works mentioned:Herman Bavinck, Philosophy of Revelation: A New Annotated Edition Adapted and Expanded from the 1908 Stone Lectures: Presented at Princeton Theological Seminary, A new annotated edition, ed. Cory Brock and Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, with Princeton Theological Seminary (Hendrickson Publishers, 2018).⁠https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Revelation-Annotated-Herman-Bavinck/dp/1683071360⁠J. H. Bavinck, Personality and Worldview, ed. James Perman Eglinton, with Timothy Keller (Crossway, 2023).Herman Bavinck, Christianity and Science, trans. Nathaniel Gray Sutanto et al. (Crossway, 2023). Marinus de Jong, “The Heart of the Academy: Herman Bavinck in Debate with Modernity on the Academy, Theology, and the Church,” in Church and Academy, ed. Gordon Graham, The Kuyper Center Review, volume 5 (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2015).Christopher Watkin, Biblical Critical Theory: How the Bible's Unfolding Story Makes Sense of Modern Life and Culture (Zondervan Academic, 2022).“Divine Providence's Wetenschappelijke Benefits: Retrieving a Bavinckian Model,” Divine Providence and Action, edited by Oliver Crisp and Fred Sanders (Zondervan, 2019), 96-114.Ximian Xu, Theology as the Science of God: Herman Bavinck's Wetenschappelijke Theology for the Modern World, 1st ed. (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 2022).Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

In this episode, Nate Shannon and Dan Schrock explore the themes of certainty and assurance in faith as articulated by Hermann Bavinck in his book 'The Certainty of Faith.' Dan has recently translated and edited this work which will be available through our very own Westminster Seminary Press. Grab yourself a copy here. They discuss the historical context of Bavinck's writing, the impact of the Enlightenment and modernity on theological thought, and the pastoral relevance of Bavinck's insights for contemporary Christians facing uncertainty. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of grounding assurance in the authority of Scripture and the objective truth of faith, rather than subjective experiences. If you enjoy this episode, you can access tons of content just like this at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wm.wts.edu⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you would like to join us in our mission to train specialists in the bible to proclaim the whole counsel of God for Christ and his global church, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wts.edu/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Thanks for listening!

Por ep 2 lec 1In this episode, James, Gray, Cory, and Marinus continue their series reading and discussing Herman Bavinck's Philosophy of Revelation. This week, they discuss the second chapter on “Revelation and Philosphy." Read along with us as we walk through the chapters of this significant work.Works mentioned:Herman Bavinck, Philosophy of Revelation: A New Annotated Edition Adapted and Expanded from the 1908 Stone Lectures: Presented at Princeton Theological Seminary, A new annotated edition, ed. Cory Brock and Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, with Princeton Theological Seminary (Hendrickson Publishers, 2018).⁠https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Revelation-Annotated-Herman-Bavinck/dp/1683071360⁠J. H. Bavinck, Personality and Worldview, ed. James Perman Eglinton, with Timothy Keller (Crossway, 2023).Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

In this episode, James, Cory, and Marinus continue their series reading and discussing Herman Bavinck's Philosophy of Revelation. This week, they discuss the first chapter on “The Idea of a Philosophy of Revelation. Read along with us as we walk through the chapters of this significant work.Works mentioned:Herman Bavinck, Philosophy of Revelation: A New Annotated Edition Adapted and Expanded from the 1908 Stone Lectures: Presented at Princeton Theological Seminary, A new annotated edition, ed. Cory Brock and Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, with Princeton Theological Seminary (Hendrickson Publishers, 2018).⁠https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Revelation-Annotated-Herman-Bavinck/dp/1683071360⁠J. H. Bavinck, Personality and Worldview, ed. James Perman Eglinton, with Timothy Keller (Crossway, 2023).Tom Holland, Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World, First US edition (Basic Books, 2019).Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West: Form and Actuality, Vol. I, (London Allen & Unwin, 1918)Oswald Spengler, The Decline of the West: Pespectives of World Hisotyr, Vol. II, (London Allen & Unwin, 1922) Charles Taylor, A Secular Age (Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2007).Carl R. Trueman, The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution (Crossway, 2020).Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

In this episode, James and Cory introduce a new series where they will be reading and discussing Herman Bavinck's Philosophy of Revelation. They discuss the significance of this work within the context of Neo-Calvinism and cultural apologetics. The conversation explores the intellectual landscape of Bavinck's time, including his engagement with Nietzsche, and offers insights into how readers can approach Bavinck's complex lectures. Read along with us as we walk through the chapters of this significant work.Works mentioned:Herman Bavinck, Philosophy of Revelation: A New Annotated Edition Adapted and Expanded from the 1908 Stone Lectures: Presented at Princeton Theological Seminary, A new annotated edition, ed. Cory Brock and Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, with Princeton Theological Seminary (Hendrickson Publishers, 2018).https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Revelation-Annotated-Herman-Bavinck/dp/1683071360James D. Bratt, “The Context of Herman Bavinck's Stone Lectures: Culture and Politics in 1908,” The Bavinck Review 1 (2010): 4–24.https://bavinckinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Article-1-Bratt.pdfGeorge Harinck, “Why Was Bavinck in Need of a Philosophy of Revelation?,” in The Kuyper Center Review, ed. Gordon Graham, vol. 2, The Kuyper Center Review (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010). Chapters00:00 Introduction to Philosophy of Revelation02:38 The Importance of Bavinck's Work05:35 Context of the Stone Lectures08:34 Challenges of Reading Bavinck's Stone Lectures11:47 Bavinck's Engagement with Culture14:37 Cultural Apologetics in Bavinck's Philosophy of Revelation17:36 The Personal Narrative Behind the Lectures20:32 Cultural Apologetics30:36 Why a Philosophy of Revelation?44:30 Historical Intellectual Background53:48 Reading TipsReach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

In this week's encore episode, we're revisiting a groundbreaking work by J. H. Bavinck, Personality and Worldview, translated by Dr. Eglintona few years back. In it we are given a new perspective on worldview, one which encourages us to upgrade from "the compass" to "the map." Have you considered taking a class with us during the upcoming academic year? Explore our degree programs and find one that's right for you: www.rts.edu/washington. Email admissions.washington@rts.edu to get started. Follow us on Instagram: www.instagram.com/rts.washington/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/RTSWashingtonDC X: x.com/rtswashington

Mere Fidelity hosts Derek Rishmawy, Alastair Roberts, and James Wood interview Professor John Bolt about completing Herman Bavinck's Reformed Ethics translation project. Discussion covers Bavinck's methodology combining creation order and union with Christ, his engagement with contemporary scholarship, controversial applications on marriage/sexuality, and why Bavinck appeals across denominational boundaries. Chapters: 00:00 Welcome 01:05 Monumental Translation 04:49 The Bavinck Moment 07:53 Bavinck's Approach to Ethics 11:01 Union With and Imitation Of Christ 15:30 Anthropology 18:33 Topics Strange and Controversial 24:13 Casuistry 27:33 Extrabiblical Science 31:01 Divisions

El Espíritu de Dios es el único que puede traer una armonía entre nuestra teología y ética. Por eso necesitamos con urgencia ser llenos de Él.

Derek Rishmawy, Alastair Roberts, and Brad East discuss why so many Christians today feel stuck, anxious, or overwhelmed by the idea of “calling.” They examine how the biblical and Reformation doctrine of vocation has been reshaped by modern expectations of career, identity, and fulfillment—and how to recover a clearer, more grounded view of vocation rooted in community, providence, and everyday faithfulness. A Mere Orthodoxy Podcast Sponsor This episode is brought to you by Lexham Press, featuring The Foremost Problems in Contemporary Dogmatics by Herman Bavinck. These newly translated lectures explore faith in the modern world with Bavinck's signature depth and clarity. Mere Fidelity listeners receive 40% off at lexhampress.com/merefidelity. Key Idea Vocation isn't about finding the perfect, fulfilling job. It's about using your gifts to serve others and glorify God in the ordinary responsibilities of life. Chapters 0:00 Introduction and sponsor 2:00 Why calling feels confusing today 4:30 When vocation becomes careerism 6:30 Community and the biblical view of calling 8:30 The myth of the perfect job 11:00 Deep gladness and daily responsibility 13:00 The idol of work and career fulfillment 16:00 Gifts for the good of others 18:30 The human calling in Genesis 21:00 Male and female in shared vocation 24:00 Why we need a deflated view of calling 26:30 Dignity in ordinary work 29:00 Vocation for all kinds of people Resources Mentioned The Foremost Problems in Contemporary Dogmatics – Herman Bavinck (Lexham Press) Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.”  

All the Episodes of the Heidelcast Subscribe to the Heidelcast! Browse the Heidelshop! On X @Heidelcast On Insta & Facebook @Heidelcast Subscribe in Apple Podcast Subscribe directly via RSS Call The Heidelphone via Voice Memo On Your Phone The Heidelcast is available wherever podcasts are found including Spotify. Call or text the Heidelphone anytime at (760) 618-1563. Leave a message or email us a voice memo from your phone and we may use it in a future podcast. Record it and email it to heidelcast@heidelblog.net. If you benefit from the Heidelcast please leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts so that others can find it. Please do not forget to make the coffer clink (see the donate button below). SHOW NOTES How To Subscribe To Heidelmedia The Heidelblog Resource Page Heidelmedia Resources The Ecumenical Creeds The Reformed Confessions The Heidelberg Catechism Recovering the Reformed Confession (Phillipsburg: P&R Publishing, 2008) Why I Am A Christian What Must A Christian Believe? Heidelblog Contributors Support Heidelmedia: use the donate button or send a check to: Heidelberg Reformation Association 1637 E. Valley Parkway #391 Escondido CA 92027 USA The HRA is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization

In this episode, Cory, James, and Gray discuss some of the research projects they are working on, including rethinking the Christian history of languages, the doctrines of sin and demons in the Reformed Tradition, the principles of Reformed retrieval, preaching, and worldview vs. wisdom.Exploring Neo-Calvinism: Foundations for Cultural Apologetics6-SESSION WEEKLY ONLINE COHORTMONDAYS, MAY 26 - JUNE 30, 2025https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/cohort/neo-calvinist-theology-for-apologetics-august-2025/Sources mentioned in this episode:Herman Bavinck, Christian Worldview, ed. Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, Cory C. Brock, and James Perman Eglinton (Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway, 2019).Herman Bavinck, “Foreword to the First Edition (Volume 1) of the Gereformeerde Dogmatiek,” trans. John Bolt, Calvin Theological Journal 45, no. 1 (2010): 9-10.J. H. Bavinck, Personality and Worldview, ed. James Perman Eglinton (Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway, 2023).Kevin J. Vanhoozer, Mere Christian Hermeneutics: Transfiguring What It Means to Read the Bible Theologically (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Academic, 2024).Christopher Watkin, Biblical Critical Theory: How the Bible's Unfolding Story Makes Sense of Modern Life and Culture (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Academic, 2022).Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠⁠Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

In this episode we seek to define and display the beauty of general revelation. The hope is that this episode would help us understand what general revelation means, see God's grand design in his creation, and recognize God's kindness in revealing himself to us.ResourcesVersesRomans 1:18-23Psalm 19Acts 17:22-31Romans 1:18-23PodcastsThe Knowing God PodcastFurther ReadingWhat is general revelation and special revelation?What Is General Revelation?"Divine Revelation: God Making Himself Known"Quotes“As a matter of fact, all of the works of God, whether of word or deed, are constituent parts and elements of the one, great, comprehensive, and always continuing revelation of God.” - Bavinck“Revelation, therefore, cannot have its final purpose in man; in part it passes him by and soars on beyond him.” - Bavinck“In the general revelation God makes use of the usual run of phenomena and the usual course of events; in the special revelation He often employs unusual means, appearances, prophecy, and miracles to make himself known to man.”“When therefore, we review the whole terrain of general revelation, we discover, on the one hand, that it has been of great value and that it has borne rich fruits, and, on the other hand, that mankind has not found God by its light.” - BavinckConnect With Usprovidenceomaha.orgInstagramFacebookEmail Usformation@providenceomaha.org

In this episode, James and Gray discuss social media and how the neo-Calvinist tradition has some theological resources for wise social media interaction. These resources include the notion of personality, theological anthropology,  Sources discussed in this episode J. H. Bavinck, Personality and Worldview, ed. James Perman Eglinton (Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway, 2023). https://www.crossway.org/books/personality-and-worldview-hcj/ Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, God and Humanity: Herman Bavinck and Theological Anthropology, 1st ed, T&T Clark Explorations in Reformed Theology Series (London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc, 2024). https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/god-and-humanity-9780567709028/ Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon⁠⁠⁠ Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠

Luke 9:23 | Thoughts from Luther, Calvin, Bavinck, Veith | 15 September 2024

Award-winning author and editor Donald McKim joins James and Jonathan to discuss his book, Daily Devotions with Herman Bavinck. Bavinck was a significant Reformed scholar and theologian whose popularity has increased in recent years. Though Bavinck did not leave behind a body of devotional material, Don has written eighty-four brief devotional readings accompanied by Scripture exploring Bavinck's thoughts to deepen readers' understanding and faith. Donald McKim's book is doing for Bavinck what earlier Dutch Reformed theologians had done for themselves, which is step you into that practical application, and there's nothing unnatural about it. It feels like exactly the next step that you should take. – James Dolezal  With Bavinck, McKim understands that Christian belief is to be joined with Christian living, and he has given us an excellent practical application of Bavinck's theology. We're giving away two copies of Donald McKim's book courtesy of P&R Publishing. Register here for an opportunity to win.   Show Notes: Reformed Dogmatics by Herman Bavinck in 4 volumes: http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/reformed-dogmatics-4-volumes/291090 Other books by Donald McKim: https://www.prpbooks.com/authors/donald-k-mckim

In this Summer shoRTS episode, Gray Sutanto sits down to talk to us about his two contributions to the recently published *Ruined Sinners to Reclaim,* edited by David and Jonathan Gibson. It's a fascinating expansion of the traditional doctrine of the noetic effects of sin and the corresponding grace that we find in Christ Jesus.

In this episode, Marinus, James, Gray, and Cory sit down to discuss James' recent Bavinck Lecture, "From sensus divinitatis to sensus numenis: reading culture as a product of the soul with J.H. Bavinck" at the Theologische Universtiet - Utrecht. Publications mentioned in this episode: https://www.cambridge.org/core/publications/elements/christian-doctrine James Eglinton, "From sensus divinitatis to sensus numenis: reading culture as a product of the soul with J.H. Bavinck," https://tuu.nl/nieuws/watch-the-eighth-herman-bavinck-lecture/ Our theme music is Molly Molly by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue) ⁠⁠⁠CC BY-NC 4.0⁠⁠⁠ Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon

Episode 193: Bavinck and Advanced Studies at RTS Washington (w/ Joshua Patrasahan and Isaac Whitney) We are joined with two of our students from our Advanced Studies initiative at RTS Washington, Joshua Patrasahan and Isaac Whitney, both of him recently presented papers at the Abraham Kuyper conference. They talk to use about the details of their research, and Dr. Sutanto tells us a bit more about the Advanced Studies initiative. We give thanks to the Abraham Kuyper Leadership Fund for sponsoring the Neo-Calvinist Initiative and the Adam F. Redd Family Grant for sponsoring the Advanced Studies Initiative at RTS Washington.

Episode II: There is unrest in the theological senate. . . Brandon and Scott revisit Brian G. Mattson's lecture "Attributes, Roots, and Fruit." They get into Van Til's criticism of Herman Bavinck and then into some criticism of Van Til's criticism of Bavinck. If you ride with Bavinck and want to size up this Van Til fellow, please visit Westminster Seminary Press's website and lasso yourself a copy of the book to read the full essay "Attributes, Roots, and Fruit" by Brian G. Mattson: https://wtspress.com/products/the-future-of-reformed-apologetics-collected-essays-on-applying-van-til-s-apologetic-method-to-a-new-generation. It is also available wherever sound Christian books are sold.

How can we have meaningful evangelistic conversations with our non-Christian friends and family? In his book “Making Faith Magnetic,” Dr. Dan Strange develops the work of J.H. Bavinck, proposing 5 "magnetic points" that are present within every human and every culture. In this episode, we analyze these magnetic points, explore their "subversive fulfillment" in Jesus, and consider how they can be useful in talking about faith.Book Link: https://www.thegoodbook.com/making-faith-magnetic

In this insightful episode of the Missions Podcast, we explore a critical question at the heart of Christian ministry: What does it mean to be vulnerable in ministry, and how does it affect our approach to the mission field? We delve into the biblical principle that while Paul planted and Apollos watered, it was God who gave the growth, emphasizing the significance of vulnerability and interdependence in the spread of the gospel. Through a discussion on the application of these concepts across different cultures, the importance of humility in our communication, and the role of the fear of the Lord in shaping our vulnerability, this episode challenges our assumptions about leadership in missions. Joining us is Chris Sadowitz, a missionary pastor serving in Japan with ABWE, adjunct professor at the Asia Biblical Theological Seminary in Chiang Mai, Thailand, and co-editor of Paul Planted, Apollos Watered, but God: Vulnerable Weakness in Ministry & Mission. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionsshow.com/book. Do you love The Missions Show? Have you been blessed by the show? Then become a Premium Subscriber! Premium Subscribers get access to: Exclusive bonus content A community Signal thread with other listeners and the hosts Invite-only webinars A free gift! Support The Missions Show and sign up to be a Premium Subscriber at missionsshow.com/premium The Missions Show is powered by ABWE. Learn more and take your next step in the Great Commission at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionsshow.com.

In this insightful episode of the Missions Podcast, we explore a critical question at the heart of Christian ministry: What does it mean to be vulnerable in ministry, and how does it affect our approach to the mission field? We delve into the biblical principle that while Paul planted and Apollos watered, it was God who gave the growth, emphasizing the significance of vulnerability and interdependence in the spread of the gospel. Through a discussion on the application of these concepts across different cultures, the importance of humility in our communication, and the role of the fear of the Lord in shaping our vulnerability, this episode challenges our assumptions about leadership in missions. Joining us is Chris Sadowitz, a missionary pastor serving in Japan with ABWE, adjunct professor at the Asia Biblical Theological Seminary in Chiang Mai, Thailand, and co-editor of Paul Planted, Apollos Watered, but God: Vulnerable Weakness in Ministry & Mission. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionspodcast.com/book. Believe in our mission? Support the show at missionspodcast.com/support. The Missions Podcast is a ministry resource of ABWE. Learn more at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionspodcast.com.

We were recently host to Dr. Alex Tseng for our Global Bavinck Scholars series of lectures, and so our podcast this week comes in two parts. First we are please to release Dr. Tseng's lecture. Dutch theologian Herman Bavinck brought insights from the historic Reformed confession of faith to bear on the philosophical trends of his day. What would a similar Neo-Calvinist engagement of culture and philosophy look like today in different contexts around the world? How might this theological engagement of culture proceed in Asian contexts? Theologian and philosopher Shao Kai (“Alex”) Tseng will draw from Bavinck's example of wrestling with thinkers like Hegel to propose how Neo-Calvinism can philosophically engage contemporary Asian cultures. Dr. Tseng has authored books on Hegel, Kant, and Barth, and he serves as a research professor in the philosophy department of Zheijang University in Hangzhou, China. More about RTS: rts.edu/campuses/washington-dc/ Donate: give2rtsdc.com/

In this episode, we tackle two pivotal topics at the heart of global missions. We begin by responding to one friendly criticism and exploring the nuanced definition of “reached,” emphasizing the importance of not just making contact with the unreached but ensuring every nation, tribe, and people group has a fully mature body of believers. Following this, we delve into the pressing issue of maintaining doctrinal integrity in mission fields, particularly in regions like the Middle East where there is often a disconnect from church history. We discuss the risks of neglecting historic Christian creeds to prevent the spread of theological errors in cross-cultural missions. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionspodcast.com/book. Believe in our mission? Support the show at missionspodcast.com/support. The Missions Podcast is a ministry resource of ABWE. Learn more at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionspodcast.com.

In this episode, we tackle two pivotal topics at the heart of global missions. We begin by responding to one friendly criticism and exploring the nuanced definition of “reached,” emphasizing the importance of not just making contact with the unreached but ensuring every nation, tribe, and people group has a fully mature body of believers. Following this, we delve into the pressing issue of maintaining doctrinal integrity in mission fields, particularly in regions like the Middle East where there is often a disconnect from church history. We discuss the risks of neglecting historic Christian creeds to prevent the spread of theological errors in cross-cultural missions. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionsshow.com/book. Do you love The Missions Show? Have you been blessed by the show? Then become a Premium Subscriber! Premium Subscribers get access to: Exclusive bonus content A community Signal thread with other listeners and the hosts Invite-only webinars A free gift! Support The Missions Show and sign up to be a Premium Subscriber at missionsshow.com/premium The Missions Show is powered by ABWE. Learn more and take your next step in the Great Commission at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionsshow.com.

Where does Christianity stand between Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and the like? How do we build a relationship with those of other religions without losing ourselves in the process? What are the bridges that need to be crossed to lead them to Jesus? What is the mission of the church today? What role does the cultural mandate play? And how can the 20th-century Dutch missiologist, J.H. Bavinck help us understand the mission today so that we can do it both faithfully and fruitfully? What role does contextualization play in communicating that mission? That's what we discussed on today's show!Daniel Strange is the director of Crosslands Forum and the vice president of The Southgate Fellowship. He is one of the inaugural fellows of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics and is the author of Their Rock Is Not Like Our Rock: A Theology of Religions (Zondervan, 2015), Plugged In (The Good Book Company, 2019), and Making Faith Magnetic (The Good Book Company, 2021) (the book we are talking about today!) He is a contributing editor for Themelios and an elder of Hope Community Church, Gateshead, U.K., which is part of the Fellowship of Evangelical Churches (FIEC).It's a fantastic, fun, and faith-filled conversation that can help you build a bridge with unbelievers so that they too can know Jesus. This is a must-listen!Check out #177 Daniel Strange, Pt. 1 and #178 Daniel Strange, Pt. 2Sign up for the Apollos Watered newsletter.Help water-thirsty souls by partnering with Apollos Watered!

Dive into the transformative legacy of Ludwig Krapf, a figure whose pioneering translation work and partnerships in missions laid foundational stones for the gospel's spread in East Africa. Krapf's enduring impact questions how we view mission work today, inviting us to explore the deep roots of faith across continents. His story is not just a historical footnote—it's a call to understand the significance of cultural and linguistic bridges in spreading the gospel. Aaron Dunlop's life journey intertwines with the spiritual legacy of figures like Krapf. Growing up in Northern Ireland and enriched by diverse academic and pastoral experiences from Bible College in his homeland to Applied Linguistics at Trinity Western University and theology at Geneva Reformed Seminary, Aaron's path led him from pastoral roles in Jamaica and British Columbia to teaching in Kenya. Now, as the founder of The Krapf Project and back in Northern Ireland, Aaron, alongside his wife Grace and their five children, continues to embody the mission's spirit, fostering a culture of reading and theological education in East Africa. Discover more about Aaron's work and The Krapf Project's vision at krapfproject.com and thinkgospel.com. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionspodcast.com/book. Believe in our mission? Support the show at missionspodcast.com/support. The Missions Podcast is a ministry resource of ABWE. Learn more at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionspodcast.com.

Dive into the transformative legacy of Ludwig Krapf, a figure whose pioneering translation work and partnerships in missions laid foundational stones for the gospel's spread in East Africa. Krapf's enduring impact questions how we view mission work today, inviting us to explore the deep roots of faith across continents. His story is not just a historical footnote—it's a call to understand the significance of cultural and linguistic bridges in spreading the gospel. Aaron Dunlop's life journey intertwines with the spiritual legacy of figures like Krapf. Growing up in Northern Ireland and enriched by diverse academic and pastoral experiences from Bible College in his homeland to Applied Linguistics at Trinity Western University and theology at Geneva Reformed Seminary, Aaron's path led him from pastoral roles in Jamaica and British Columbia to teaching in Kenya. Now, as the founder of The Krapf Project and back in Northern Ireland, Aaron, alongside his wife Grace and their five children, continues to embody the mission's spirit, fostering a culture of reading and theological education in East Africa. Discover more about Aaron's work and The Krapf Project's vision at krapfproject.com and thinkgospel.com. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionsshow.com/book. Do you love The Missions Show? Have you been blessed by the show? Then become a Premium Subscriber! Premium Subscribers get access to: Exclusive bonus content A community Signal thread with other listeners and the hosts Invite-only webinars A free gift! Support The Missions Show and sign up to be a Premium Subscriber at missionsshow.com/premium The Missions Show is powered by ABWE. Learn more and take your next step in the Great Commission at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionsshow.com.

Tune in to this week's upcoming episode to learn more about the linguistic legacy of little-known missionary treasure Ludwig Krapf from our guest, Aaron Dunlop. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionsshow.com/book. Do you love The Missions Show? Have you been blessed by the show? Then become a Premium Subscriber! Premium Subscribers get access to: Exclusive bonus content A community Signal thread with other listeners and the hosts Invite-only webinars A free gift! Support The Missions Show and sign up to be a Premium Subscriber at missionsshow.com/premium The Missions Show is powered by ABWE. Learn more and take your next step in the Great Commission at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionsshow.com.

Tune in to this week's upcoming episode to learn more about the linguistic legacy of little-known missionary treasure Ludwig Krapf from our guest, Aaron Dunlop. Also: be sure to enter our giveaway for one of three copies of An Introduction to the Science of Missions by J.H. Bavinck! Enter the drawing at missionspodcast.com/book. Believe in our mission? Support the show at missionspodcast.com/support. The Missions Podcast is a ministry resource of ABWE. Learn more at abwe.org. Want to ask a question or suggest a topic? Email alex@missionspodcast.com.

Episode Synopsis:Paul's first Corinthian letter was written to deal with divisions in the Corinthian church.  He's received a letter from the Corinthians asking him about how to deal with the Greco-Roman pagans around them, as well as how to handle professing Christians who either did not understand, or implement the apostle's instructions.  In Ephesus, where Paul was residing, someone who had just come from Corinth passed on to Paul the news that the Corinthians had misunderstood his written response to their letter.  Paul also received a delegation from the Corinthian church asking a whole series of questions, which Paul must address.  The news from Corinth was disturbing.  Paul's response to this serious situation is the letter we now know as 1 Corinthians.When you begin to summarize the content of 1 Corinthians (in order to answer the “what is in the letter question”), you notice something rather remarkable for a situational letter like this one specifically written to address divisions beginning to appear within the Corinthian congregation.  Paul's response is not to scold them (although there is a bit of exhortation), but to teach them the correct doctrine, which is then to be applied to each of the difficult situations brought to his attention.  This makes for a rich theological letter in terms of doctrinal content worked out with a great deal of practical application.Paul's thesis statement is set out in 1 Corinthians 1:10: “I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.”  The two primary sources of contention which Paul must address are those typical of Greco-Roman paganism–sexual immorality and idolatry, along with the Corinthian tendency to boast about their personal accomplishments.  Paul must remind these new Christians of what he had taught them when he had been with them previously.  God's grace revealed in Christ's death and resurrection and the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit brings about an entirely different set of ethics and morality to those in Christ's church.  Love for fellow members of the family of God is to characterize the Corinthian church, not petty divisions.  The divisions in Corinth must cease since the church is the body of Christ, Paul's apostolic authority to address such matters was given to him by Christ so it is to be accepted, and Christ's church should reflect the new creation which Jesus has brought about through his cross and resurrection.If you take a look at any of the best known Reformed systematic theologies (say Berkhof, Bavinck, and Turretin), you will find that the number of biblical texts cited by these writers in support of major doctrines is about the same for 1 Corinthians as it is for Romans and Ephesians.  The reason?  Paul's letter is packed with Trinitarian references.  He speaks of calling and election as the manifestation of God's grace as revealed in the gospel.  He discusses Christ's resurrection and ours in great detail–the most important discussion of the resurrection of the body in all the New Testament.  Paul addresses numerous aspects of the Christian life, much of which is centered upon love of neighbor working itself out in the situations reported to him as the chief sign that one is truly converted and which serves as the basis of Christian ethics and morality.1 Corinthians is theology applied to life.  What is Paul's theology?  How does he apply it to the Corinthians?  And what does this mean for us?   We'll discuss this and more in this episode of the Blessed Hope Podcast.For show notes and other recommended materials located at the Riddleblog as mentioned during the Blessed Hope Podcast, click here: https://www.kimriddlebarger.com/

In this episode, we return to the discussion on chapters from Gray and Cory's book Neo-Calvinism: A Theological Introduction. In particular, we return to the discussion about Neo-Calvinism's ecclesiology and how the Church relates to the world. Publications mentioned in this episode: Brock, Cory C., and N. Gray Sutanto. Neo-Calvinism: A Theological Introduction. Bellingham: Lexham Press, 2023. Kaemingk, Matthew, and Cory B. Willson. Work and Worship: Reconnecting Our Labor and Liturgy. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic, a division of Baker Publishing Group, 2020. Bavinck, Johan Herman. De Zegen van den Arbeid. J.N. Voorhoeve, 1949 Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon

In this episode, James and Gray have a short discussion on everything happening in Neo-Calvinism during 2023.   Publications mentioned in this episode: Bavinck, Herman. Christianity and Science. Translated by Nathaniel Gray Sutanto, James Perman Eglinton, and Cory C. Brock. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway, 2023. https://www.crossway.org/books/christianity-and-science-case/ Bavinck, J. H. Personality and Worldview. Edited by James Perman Eglinton. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway, 2023. https://www.crossway.org/books/personality-and-worldview-hcj/ Brock, Cory C., and N. Gray Sutanto. Neo-Calvinism: A Theological Introduction. Bellingham: Lexham Press, 2023. https://lexhampress.com/product/224276/neo-calvinism-a-theological-introduction Sutanto, Nathaniel Gray, and Cory C. Brock, eds. T&T Clark Handbook of Neo-Calvinism. T&T Clark Handbooks. London ; New York: T&T Clark, 2024. https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/tt-clark-handbook-of-neocalvinism-9780567698094/ Sutanto, Nathaniel Gray. God and Humanity: Herman Bavinck and Theological Anthropology. T&T Clark Explorations in Reformed Theology. London; New York: T&T Clark, 2024. https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/god-and-humanity-9780567709028/ Clausing, Cameron. Theology and History in the Methodology of Herman Bavinck: Revelation, Confession, and Christian Consciousness. Oxford Studies in Historical Theology Series. New York, NY, United States of America: Oxford University Press, 2024. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/theology-and-history-in-the-methodology-of-herman-bavinck-9780197665879?cc=gb&lang=en&# Eglinton, James Perman, and George Harinck, eds. Neo-Calvinism and Roman Catholicism. Studies in Reformed Theology, volume 47. Leiden ; Boston: Brill, 2023. https://brill.com/display/title/64861?language=en James Eglinton, “Tim Keller and American Neo-Calvinism,” The Gospel Coalition Podcast, from the TGC Netherlands 2023 Conference. 24 November 2023. https://open.spotify.com/episode/3xUKcPmqEsN31WSyMqlCyJ?si=737e24d6d3cc42cf Reach us at graceincommonpodcast@gmail.com. If you want to make a donation, please visit ⁠https://donorbox.org/graceincommon

"One who destroys the family is digging away the moral foundations of society," writes Herman Bavinck in Chapter 9 of The Christian Family. In this installment of Third Wednesday Theology, we explore Bavinck's insights about the connection between family and society.

Dr. James Eglinton joined us today to talk about his new English translation of J.H. Bavinck's Personality and Worldview (Crossway, 2013). Dr. Eglinton is a leading Bavinck expert, and had much to teach us on the relationships between personality, worldview, and other concepts. He also gave insight on Bavinck's concepts of race and racism, which was fascinating to consider. We hope you are encouraged. Support the showTo learn more about United? We Pray, follow us on Twitter and keep exploring our website. Please consider rating the podcast on Apple Podcasts, and subscribe using your favorite podcast client to hear more!

Jen Wilkin, JT English, and Kyle Worley are joined by their spouses; Jeff Wilkin, Macy English, and Lauren Worley!Questions Covered in This Episode:Does JT quote Bavinck on date nights?How does it feel to be grandparents?Who is the “yes” parent and who is the “no” parent?What's your favorite episode of Knowing Faith so far this season?Do any of y'all ever listen to an episode and think - “Why did I marry a weirdo/nerd?”What does ministry partnership look like for each of us?Resources Mentioned in This Episode:Knowing Faith Episode #38 -  Living with a TheologianThe Family Discipleship PodcastAffiliate links are used where appropriate. We earn from qualifying purchases, thank you for supporting Training the Church.Sponsors:Are you ready to take your next step in theological training? Consider Midwestern Seminary and how our For the Church vision can equip you through formal theological education or one of our many free training resources we offer. Learn more about how to get started at www.mbts.edu/knowingfaithFollow Us:Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | WebsiteOur Sister Podcasts:The Family Discipleship Podcast | Confronting Christianity | Starting PlaceSupport Training the Church and Become a Patron:patreon.com/trainingthechurch