The Wednesday Conversation

Summer is in full swing. We usually talk about big, weighty, theological and cultural topics on this podcast; but in the summertime, we take an episode or two to talk about what we're reading at the pool. In this episode, Bethany leads a conversation exploring the things we're reading, watching, and thinking about this summer.(0:00) Introductions: Summer Pursuits(0:45) What We're Reading(10:28) Bob's TGC Update(15:40) What We're Thinking About(28:36) What We're Watching (and Listening To)

In the early 2000s, New Atheism was all the rage. Many people left faith behind, convinced they didn't need religion. But it turns out society hasn't been able to meaningfully replicate the benefits of church. In a recent New York Times article, Lauren Jackson describes how secularism sought to build transcendent community through means like yoga, CrossFit, SoulCycle, meditation and more. Despite these efforts, the data show that there is overwhelming empirical support for the value of being at a house of worship on a regular basis. In this episode, we discuss Jackson's article, and especially her poignant conclusion: "My spiritual longing hasn't been sated by secularism... I want a god."(0:00) Introductions: Camille from Long Island's Donut Drop(2:00) Why America Is Revisiting Faith(5:05) How Secularism Has Tried (and Failed) to Meet Our Needs(16:57) Longing for “Inconvenient” Community(22:31) Christian Community Provides the Meaning We Long For(28:50) Be More Outgoing About What You BelieveArticle: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/18/style/religion-america.html

Last month, Trinity Classical Academy sent forth its first class of graduating seniors. To mark this milestone, we're republishing an interview that first aired in 2020 on Owen Strachan's now-defunct podcast. At that time, Dr. Strachan was on the faculty at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he invited Bob Thune to MBTS's Spurgeon Library to talk about the founding of Trinity Classical Academy. The founding and building of institutions is critical for gospel renewal, for societal health, and for the preservation and propagation of Christian faith. The story of TCA's success—from a fledgling startup school to a thriving educational institution—should inspire Christians to be dreamers and builders and doers.(0:00) Introductions: Bob Introduces Owen Introducing Bob(4:33) The Origin Story of Trinity Classical Academy(20:30) The Aim of Education: Formation(27:13) How Can You be a Catalyst in Your Context?

Welcome back for part 2 of the AI Debate! Bob Thune and Jacob Tewes continue their friendly debate about the proposition: "Christians can and should use AI tools." This episode considers the downstream effects of AI, the faulty anthropology it assumes, the question of whether Christians should be "early adopters," and whether demonology should factor into the conversation. Catch up on Part 1 if you missed it.(0:00) Introductions: Diving Right Back In(4:41) AI Assumes an Unbiblical Anthropology(8:12) Does AI Open Us Up to the Influence of Spiritual Beings?(20:26) Is Healthy Skepticism Enough?(35:21) What Should Christians Do with AI?

Special guest Jacob Tewes joins the podcast to engage Bob in a friendly debate about AI. The proposition: "Christians can and should use artificial intelligence." Bob argues the negative; Jacob, based on his background as an attorney for multiple AI-related startups, argues the affirmative. We talk education, innovation, Christian freedom, and the question of responsible use. Whether you're optimistic or skeptical about AI, this conversation will deepen your thinking about the ethics, implications, and limits of artificial intelligence. Catch the next episode for part 2 of the debate!(0:00) Introductions: Jacob & Jacob Join The Podcast(2:21) The Proposition(9:58) Jacob: AI is a Tool Christians Should Use Wisely(15:19) Bob: AI is Not a Neutral Tool(19:51) Is Responsible Use of AI Possible?(31:10) AI is a Bad Shortcut

Numerous Silicon Valley startups now offer parents the ability to test and screen embryos, identifying those at increased risk for various health problems. But while the marketing language seems helpful, the dark reality is that these companies promise to destroy human lives before they have time to grow. In this episode, we use an article from the American Enterprise Institute as a catalyst to begin a conversation about consumer eugenics. We explore how companies like Orchid Health weaponize parents' fears and anxieties, and why Christians need to be ethically proactive and wise in evaluating reproductive technology.(0:00) Introductions: Consumer Eugenics is Becoming a Big Thing(1:39) Why Consumer Eugenics Is Not a Good Thing(15:12) Understanding the Ethics & Language of Consumer Eugenics(18;53) The Need for a Robust Anthropology(24:58) Keeping Our Eyes Wide OpenArticle: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/silicon-valleys-consumer-eugenics/

The death of Pope Francis and subsequent election of Leo XIV has put the papal office at the forefront of cultural discourse. But how and when did Christians start to revere the bishop of Rome? Where did the Pope's authority and importance originate? And why did the Reformers strongly critique the papacy? In this episode, we discuss the development of the papacy in church history, the internal and external pushback against the Pope, and the importance of developing thoughtful, convictional Protestant sensibilities.(0:00) Introductions: Why We're Not Papists(3:24) The Rise of the Pope in Church History(11:07) Apologetic Arguments Against the Papacy(24:47) Reading a Letter from Luther(31:36) It's OK to Be a Convictional Protestant

For decades, Christianity has been in decline in the UK. The common wisdom held that secularization was inevitable, and that the US would follow the same pattern. But a brand-new study shows a surprising trend. Over the last 6 years in England and Wales, church attendance has risen 50%. The largest increases are among young people – especially young men. And they're not just showing up to church, they're also reading the Bible and practicing spiritual disciplines. In this episode, we dig into what the Holy Spirit is doing across the pond and what it portends for the future of the church.(0:00) Introductions: Katrina's Last Snacks(1:48) The Quiet Revival in the UK(6:47) The Kids are Alright(11:57) The Stats Say: Invite Your Friends to Church!(16:54) Investing in the Kingdom of GodStudy: https://www.biblesociety.org.uk/research/quiet-revival

Everyone is in need of change. But how do Christians actually participate in the work of change? In this archive episode from 2018, we survey Paul Tripp's book Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands to discuss the simple biblical pattern for helping people change: love, know, speak, do.

A couple weeks ago, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School announced the impending closure of its Chicago-area campus. The demise of TEDS is the latest in a spate of struggles among Christian higher-ed institutions. Why are seminaries and colleges closing their doors? What does it mean for the future of theological education? In this episode, we dig into the history of 20th-century American Christianity to explore the founding of evangelical institutions, the challenges that brought them to this point, the "Southern takeover" of American evangelicalism, and what the future might hold.(0:00) Introductions: Theological Education is Suffering(5:00) What Happened at TEDS(10:36) Some Broader Analysis & Bob's Historical Survey(22:16) The Rise of the SBC(32:29) What this Means for Christian Scholarship(37:07) Opportunities for the Future

Intelligence is everywhere. People used to say that "knowledge is power," but machine learning is changing everything. One author argues that we've moved from the Information Age to the Age of Agency. In this new era, your impact will be measured not by what you know, but by your ability to take action and make things happen. What changes might this new era require in education, discipleship, and spiritual formation? In this episode, we discuss how Christians can apply the wisdom of the Scriptures to this moment and spur one another to renewed agency.(0:00) Introductions: We're Talking A.I. Again(3:10) The Rise of Agency(10:31) 4 Eras of Human History(16:07) You Can Just Do Things(22:41) Wisdom vs. Knowledge(24:56) Applying Wisdom to the Intelligence AgeArticle: https://jeffgiesea.substack.com/p/agency-is-the-new-superpower

In our recent conversation about the recent Pew Religious Landscape Study, we missed an interesting data point: the decline of the Roman Catholic church. In this episode, we interact with a WORLD Opinion piece that explores the data and proposes some explanations for the downward trend. We discuss Catholic/Protestant apologetics; why high-profile "celebrity conversions" don't tell the whole story; and why discipling and catechizing our kids is vital to the growth and health of Christianity.(0:00) Introductions(1:19) Something We Missed from the Pew Religious Landscape Study(13:38) What the Decline of Catholicism Means for Culture At Large(16:14) Opportunities for Charitable Conversations Among Protestants and Catholics(24:17) The Importance of Discipling and Catechizing Our ChildrenArticle: https://wng.org/opinions/mass-exodus-1743031983Research Study: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

In 2021, Mark Zuckerberg changed his company's name from Facebook to Meta. It signaled his decision to go "all in" on virtual reality and everything it promised. (We talked about it in Episode 366: Meta Church.) But less than four years later, the meta-hype is collapsing, with every major VR company reporting losses and pulling back products. In this episode, we discuss what we can learn from the meteoric rise and decline of virtual reality... and how this tale can make us wiser in our approach to technology.(0:00) Introductions and a Quick Trip into the Archives(2:56) Virtual Reality Gets a Reality Check(8:22) Humans Actually Like Embodied-ness(17:28) Knowing How Technology Shapes UsArticle: https://wng.org/articles/a-dose-of-reality-1738632435

Modern people spend lots of time, energy, and money on their bodies - whether it be through diet and supplements or working out and exercise. Some become so focused on exercise and nutrition that they idolize their bodies while others are prone to neglect their physical bodies. In this episode, we respond to a listener-submitted question about the role of physical fitness in the life of the Christian. How does the fact that we're going to die (Psalm 90:10) inform a Christian approach to fitness? How can we avoid idolizing or neglecting our physical health? Listen in as we discuss the wisdom Scripture provides in this area.(0:00) Introductions and Talking Physical Fitness(5:50) Grounding the Conversation in Scripture(9:23) What Role Does Physical Fitness Play in the Life of a Christian?(19:08) How Do I Know I'm Glorifying God with My Body?(27:06) Stewarding All of Our Resources Well

Much has been said and written about the decline of Christianity in America, including on this podcast. But is something changing? A new Pew Research Center study shows that the decline of Christianity has tapered off over the past few years. In this episode, we dig into the statistics and analyze the opportunities they present for Christians to be on mission.(0:00) Introductions(1:05) The Data Shows…De-Churching Is Leveling Off(7:50) Some of Our Favorite Research Study Nuggets(12:13) How to Make Sense of This as Church Leaders(24:10) The ONE Thing We Want You to Take with YouArticle: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/decline-of-christianity-in-the-us-has-slowed-may-have-leveled-off/

On January 10th of this year, book lovers lined up to purchase the newest release in the Empyrean series by Rebecca Yarros. These books are part of a genre known as romantic fantasy, or "romantasy" - and its popularity is exploding. But how should Christian women relate to romantasy literature? Recently, a church member reached out to us with some unease about how nonchalantly her Christian friends were imbibing the explicit sexual imagery in these novels. So we invited her to come on the podcast and talk about it! In this episode, Adrienne joins us to discuss the rise of romantasy, the ways that it can steer us away from a godly view of sex and intimacy, and how Christians can better commend what is good, true and beautiful.(0:00) Introductions: Guess Who's Baaaaaack??(2:15) The Rise of Romantasy and What Makes it Problematic(11:27) Two Main Romantasy Markets(15:50) Why Escapism is a Powerful Temptation(19:29) What Does it Mean to Engage Culture?(32:38) How to Commend Good ArtArticle: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/christians-need-know-romantasy/

How can we make sense of right-leaning politics in the wake of the 2024 election? Is a second Trump presidency the result of populism? Nationalism? Techno-oligarchy? Something else? Recently, Jake Meador identified four distinct "tribes" on the political right that share some common aims but differ widely in their approaches. Whatever your personal politics, you're going to be living with these tribes for the next few years - so you might as well get to know them. In this episode, we interact with Meador's essay and explore its implications for Christian faithfulness.(0:00) Introduction and Stories(5:43) The Four Tribes on the Political Right, Explained(24:31) How Christian Civic Republicanism Differs from Classical Liberalism(27:02) The Importance of Freedom of Conscience(30:40) A Case Study on Christian Nationalism(35:50) Christianity and the Common GoodArticle: https://mereorthodoxy.com/after-progressive-neo-liberalism

Over the past decade, leaving the church has been a trend - and the leavers have been mostly left-leaning. But Jake Meador identifies a more recent trend of "right-wing exvangelicals." Whereas the left-wing exvangelicals liked Jesus but weren't sure about the church, right-wing exvangelicals want to keep civic religion but aren't as interested in the way of Jesus. In this episode, we talk about these trends, how we're seeing them in our churches, and how the gospel speaks to them.(0:00) Introductions & Snack Shout-outs(2:49) What is an Ex-vangelical? Definition & History(9:54) The Growing Trend of Right-Wing Exvangelicals(13:00) Politics as a Replacement Religion(18:07) Keeping the Main Thing the Main Thing(30:34) C.S. Lewis: Beware of “Christianity And"Article: https://mereorthodoxy.com/two-types-of-exvangelicals

Artificial Intelligence is generating a lot of interest these days. President Trump even issued an executive order to "sustain and enhance America's global AI dominance." So how should Christians think about AI? Can a machine even be "intelligent?" How does Christian theology help us go beyond the hype to engage the substance of the debate? In this episode, we draw on the wisdom of Thomas Aquinas to discuss the nature the mind, the intelligence of angels and demons, and how the Christian tradition helps us evaluate and assess technological progress.Article: https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2025/01/96910/

In a recent article for The Atlantic, Derek Thompson writes about the surge in Americans eating alone, shopping alone, and generally doing life alone. In this episode, we discuss his analysis of the problem, talk about the wisdom the church can offer, and explore how the Christian tradition promotes both community and solitude.Article (requires subscription): https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/02/american-loneliness-personality-politics/681091/

There's a bit of a "vibe shift" underway in American culture, and Silicon Valley is one place where it's evident. Recently, a listener passed along an article about the renewed interest in Christianity among tech and venture-capital elites. In this episode, we explore how the spiritual hunger in Silicon Valley relates to a larger cultural trend, and the opportunities it provides for Christians to show the beauty and goodness of the Christian story.Article (requires subscription): https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-antichrist-and-the-new-apostles

God reveals his grace to us through both law and gospel. In this episode from 2016, we talk about how the law and the gospel fit together.

Daniel in the lion's den. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace. The handwriting on the wall. These beloved stories are found in the book of Daniel. But Daniel also contains some strange prophecies, some troubling dreams, and some confusing apocalyptic imagery. In this episode, we discuss how this fascinating book of the Bible captures the sweep of the whole biblical story. We explore the date of Daniel, its textual tradition, its place in Jewish apocalyptic literature, and what it tells us about faithful living in exile.

In recent decades, liberalism—the political philosophy that undergirds Western democracy—has come under increasing scrutiny. Though it purports to emphasize freedom, independence, and self-determination, it has created a crisis of meaning and an erosion of norms. In this episode, we analyze a new "post-liberal manifesto" that points out the problems with liberalism, imagines what might take its place, and explores how Christians can offer a new vision of the common good.

World War II has become the dominant story of the 20th century. Just think about all the films it's inspired: Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, Dunkirk, Inglorious Basterds, Oppenheimer, and hundreds more. But a recent article from Dr. Alec Ryrie poses the question: what happens to Western culture when we pivot from a positive moral exemplar (Jesus) to a negative one (Hitler)? In this episode, we engage Ryrie's article, unpacking the moral shift in our culture and exploring its implications.

As a new year approaches, we look back on the year that's ending. We discuss some of the newsworthy & notable events of 2024, some of the things that brought us a deeper sense of worship, and some things we're excited about as we anticipate 2025. Have a great holiday season, and we'll see you next year!

In this episode, Bob interviews James Martin, Lead Pastor of Bradfield & Rougham Baptist Church in Suffolk, England. They discuss James' story, the joys and struggles of pastoring in rural England, and his hope for gospel renewal in the UK and Europe.

“And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart” (Genesis 6:5-6). When we see this kind of language in the Bible, how should we interpret it? In this episode, we discuss the function of anthropomorphic language in Scripture. We consider how it helps us to understand God, but also how it can lead to error if we minimize the Creator-creature distinction.

The book of Genesis tells us how everything came into being. But other creation narratives existed in the Ancient Near East. Does that mean each culture's creation story is just a relativistic myth? In this episode, we compare the Genesis account with the Epic of Gilgamesh, revealing the surprising uniqueness of the biblical story.

Thanks for listening over the past 10 years! On this episode, we welcome back Mike and Bethany to reflect on some of our favorite moments, remember our favorite guests, and express our gratitude for the ways God has graced us through the Wednesday Conversation. (Thanks also to half a dozen different listeners who provided commemorative snacks to mark this milestone!)

In the freshest episode of the podcast ever recorded, Bob, Dusty, and Chris turn on the mics at 5:30am to offer their real-time responses to the 2024 election.

“When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness…The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years” (Genesis 5:3–4). When we come across these massive human lifespans in the book of Genesis, how are we to make sense of them? In this episode, we discuss the literary function of numbers, the symbolic significance of numbers in the Ancient Near East, and the importance of attentive reading as we grow in our love for the Scriptures.

“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them” (Genesis 6:4). Texts like Genesis 6 raise profound questions and don't always offer easy explanations. In this episode, we discuss the perplexing topic of the Nephilim. Exploring some of the intertextual connections in Scripture, we survey the historical interpretations and try to shed some light on this strange episode in the Genesis narrative.

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made" (Genesis 3:1). Why does this talking serpent suddenly appear in the Genesis narrative? Drawing inspiration from Michael Heiser's book The Unseen Realm, we dig into how ancient readers understood the concept of spiritual beings, how those beings are described in later passages of Scripture, and how these insights help us become more imaginative readers of the biblical story.

"I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh... Everything that is on the earth shall die," God says in Genesis 6:17. So was Noah's flood a global deluge that covered the entire earth? Or was it a regional event? By even asking this question, are we playing fast and loose with the text? In this episode we take up some of the questions surrounding the flood narrative in Genesis 6-9.

The veracity and historicity of Genesis is taken for granted by the New Testament authors and by Jesus himself. Yet many modern Christians feel the tension of holding a high view of Genesis while also weighing the claims of modern science. In this episode, we respond to a listener's question about how to properly read Genesis, taking into account the claims of geology, archaeology, and genetic science. Can we still believe in a historical Adam and Eve? Or are they merely legendary characters in a mythical story?

After creating the heavens and the earth, God rests. The principle of Sabbath becomes a major theme throughout the rest of Scripture. Aaron Mattox joins us to discuss how this theme of Sabbath-rest is emphasized and developed within the biblical storyline, and what it means for us today.

Dusty's back, everyone! Also Chris returned from his trip to Nepal. In this episode, Chris shares some highlights from his trip, including some updates on the growth and health of the church in Kathmandu.

Genesis is an intriguing book, and a complicated one. It forms the prelude to the entire biblical narrative. In this episode, Aaron Mattox joins us to discuss some of the particulars of Genesis 1, and how we can grow as good and faithful Bible readers.

It's book release week! Bob's latest book Gospel Training for Deacons hit the shelves on August 27. We thought it would be a good time to discuss the book and respond to a listener's question about how Bob approaches the writing process and what he emphasizes as he writes.

How should we understand the difference between sin and immaturity? To put it simply: one is moral/ethical and the other is not. In this episode, we parse out how to identify spiritual, emotional, or relational immaturity. We also explore how the gospel helps us grow out of immaturity into deeper wisdom.

Cathedrals have long captured the imagination of human beings. But why? What is it about these sacred spaces that evokes a sense of wonder and beauty? On his recent vacation, Chris visited several cathedrals in Spain; upon his return, we discuss the importance of developing a Christian aesthetic and how it can lead us to a deeper worship of God.

Christians are a pro-life people. In the past, the pro-life strategy was fairly straightforward: help pregnant moms and work toward the repeal of Roe v. Wade. But the Dobbs Decision in 2022 brought about a shift in legislative strategy and tactics. In this episode, Bob uses Rusty Reno's categories of principle and prudence to discuss political platforms, state-level ballot initiatives, and how Christians can work together with grace and charity.Article: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2024/07/the-republican-party-sidelines-the-pro-life-cause

The whole Old Testament points beyond itself for fulfillment and anticipates the coming of Jesus Christ. In this episode from 2017, we discuss how understanding typology can enrich our reading of the Bible and sharpen our theological clarity.

It's an election year, friends! And newsworthy events in American politics are taking place almost every day. Recently, Donald Trump decided to make JD Vance his running mate. That choice marks a new moment in American politics: it signifies that populism is here to stay. In this episode, Bob unpacks some insights from political scientist Damon Linker about how this new populism differs from traditional conservatism, what it means for the Republican and Democratic parties, and how Christians should think about their political identity.Article: https://damonlinker.substack.com/p/the-convert

What does gospel renewal look like as Christians mature in their walk with the Lord? Drawing from the work of Tim Keller and John Newton, we look at how even our strengths and virtues have a "shadow side" that leads to selfishness and sin. We talk about how we can humbly acknowledge these “small faults" and cultivate the fruit of the Spirit more fully in our lives.Article: https://quarterly.gospelinlife.com/wisdom-of-john-newton/

In an article for First Things, Brad Littlejohn uses traditional Christian moral theology to tackle the issues of immigration and national borders. In this episode, we summarize Littlejohn's arguments, how the analogy of a house and home helps create distinctions, and how governments and Christians are called to act with wise judgment and prudence within our finitude and limitations.Article: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2024/06/theology-of-immigration

Wiley and Sons, the largest publisher of scientific journals in the world, announced that they had found over 8,000 junk papers—papers written by artificial intelligence but attached to the name of a researcher—and were pausing publications of several scientific journals. Bob takes some time to unpack the implications of this and what happens when we make “The Science” the ultimate authority.

In a recent article, Mary Harrington uses the term “omnicause” to describe how progressivism opposes whatever is considered mainstream, institutional, or Western. In this episode, we discuss where Harrington's analysis has validity, where we might disagree, and how Christians can practice good cultural apologetics in this moment.

Harrison Butker, the placekicker for the Kansas City Chiefs, has received a lot of ire from media outlets following a speech he made at the commencement of Benedictine College. In this episode, Bob breaks down the context in which his speech was given, what Butker said and didn't say, and what it looks like for Christians to live with courageous convictions in their vocations.Speech Transcript: https://www.ncregister.com/news/harrison-butker-speech-at-benedictine

What does discipleship to Jesus look like over the course of your life? And how does that change as you move into different seasons of life? In 2018, we used Ronald Rolheiser's book “Sacred Fire” to discuss the three phases of discipleship and how that helps us to frame discipleship in the local church.