Podcast appearances and mentions of Michael O Emerson

Reality and Faith Prompts1. What are the formations or structures for how you know you are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Internal senses? External resources? 2. Who are you in active dialogue with in regards to your faith? Who that is living and who that is passed on? 3. When you encounter dissonance with your reality of faith, how do you stay grounded in your experience?TranscriptsDanielle (00:00):To my computer. So thank you Starlet. Thank you Tamis for being with me. I've given already full introductions. I've recorded those separately. So the theme of the conversation and kind of what we're getting into on this podcast this season is I had this vision for talking about the themes have been race, faith, culture, church in the past on my podcast. But what I really think the question is, where is our reality and where are our touchpoints in those different realms? And so today there's going to be more info on this in the future, but where do we find reality and how do we form our reality when we integrate faith? So one of the questions I was asking Tamis and Starlet was what are the formations or structures for how you know are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Do you have internal senses? Do you have external resources? And so that's where I want to jump off from and it's free flow. I don't do a whole lot of editing, but yeah, just curious where your mind goes when you hear that, what comes to mind and we'll jump from there.Starlette (01:12):I immediately thought of baptism, baptismal waters. My baptismal identity forms and shapes me. It keeps me in touch with my body. It keeps me from being disembodied. Also, it keeps me from being swindled out of authority over my body due to the dangerous irrationalism of white body supremacy. So that's one thing. Protest also keeps me grounded. I have found that acts of defiance, minor personal rebellions, they do well for me. They keep me spiritually that I feel like it keeps me in step with Jesus. And I always feel like I'm catching up that I'm almost stepping on his feet. So for me, baptismal identity and protesting, those are the two things come to me immediately.Tamice (02:04):Whoa, that's so deep. Wow, I never thought about that. But I never thought about protests being a thing that groundsBecause I mean I've just been, for me I would say I've been working on the right so, and y'all know me, so I got acronyms for days. But I mean I think that the radical ethical spirituality that's tethered to my tradition, that's a rule of life, but it's also a litmus test. So for me, if you can't tell the truth, we don't have conversations about non-violence and loving enemies. I don't get to ethical spirituality unless you come through the front door of truth telling and truth telling in that sense of the r. And the rest arrest mix tape is radical. Angela Davis says radical and that's grasping stuff at the root. So before we have conversations about forgiveness for instance, or Jesus or scripture or what is right and what is moral, it's very important that we first tell the truth about the foundations of those realities and what we even mean by those terms and whose those terms serve and where they come from. I talk about it asking to see the manager. We need see the manager(03:24):Me that grounds me is now if something comes in and it calls me to move in a different way or corrects me or checks me in a certain way, I say yes to it if it comes through the door of truth telling because it means I also got to be true and tell the truth to myself. So that keeps me grounded. That kind of acronym is kind of how I move, but it's also how I keep toxic ways of doing religion out. And I also have come back into relationship with trees and grass and the waters and that's been really powerful for moving down into different types of intelligence. For me, the earth has been pulling me into a different way of knowing and being in that part brings me to ancestors. Just like you starlet my ancestors, I keep finding them in the trees and in the water and in the wind. So it's like, well I need them real bad right now. So that's where I'm kind of grounding myself these days.But to your point about grounding and protest, I feel most compelled to show up in spaces where the ground is crying out screaming. I feel like it beckons me there. And we talked about the most recent news of Trey being found and you talked about truth telling and what resonated immediately. And it didn't sit right with me that African-American people, people of African descent know not to take their lives in that way because of the traumatic history that when you say things like you don't suspect any foul play, it sounds like what has historically been named as at the hands of persons unknown where that no one is held responsible for the death of African-American people. That's what ties it in for me. And I feel like it's an ancestral pool that they didn't leave this way, they didn't leave in the way that they were supposed to, that something stinks and that they're crying out to say, can you hear me? Come over here Terry a while here. Don't leave him here. Don't let up on it because we didn't call him here somebody. So I love that you said that you are, feel yourself being grounded in and call back to the earth because I do feel like it speaks to us,But there are telltale signs in it and that the trees will tell us too. And so I didn't have a hand in this. It was forced on me and I saw it all come and talk to me. Put your hand here, put your head here and you can hear me scream and then you can hear me scream, you can hear him scream. He was calling out the whole time. That's what I believe in. That's how I test reality. I tested against what the earth is saying like you said, but I think we have to walk the ground a bit. We have to pace the ground a bit. We can't just go off of what people are saying. Back to your point about truth telling, don't trust nobody I don't trust. I don't trust anybody that's going to stop because you can't fix a lie. So if you're going to come in with deception, there's not much else I can do with you. There's not much I can say to you. And I find that white body supremacy is a supreme deception. So if we can't start there in a conversation, there's nothing that I can say to youTamice (06:46):That's facts. It's interesting that you talked about baptism, you talked about grounding and I had this story pop up and while you were talking again it popped up again. So I'm going to tell it. So we are not going to talk about who and all the things that happened recently, but I had made some comments online around that and around just the choice to be blind. So I've been talking a lot about John nine and this passage where it is very clear to everyone else what's happening, but the people who refuse to see, refuse to see.So in that, I was kind of pulled into that. I was in Mississippi, I was doing some stuff for the book and this lady, a chaplain, her name is Sally Bevin, actually Sally Bevel, she walked up to me, she kept calling me, she was like, Tam me, she want to come. I have my whole family there. We were at the Mississippi Book Fair and she kept saying, Tam me, she want to come join, dah, dah, dah. Then my family walked off and they started to peruse and then she asked me again and I was like, no, I'm good. And I was screaming. I mean I'm looking in the screen and the third time she did it, it pulled me out and I was like, this woman is trying to pull me into being present. And she said to me, this is funny, starlet. I said, I feel like I need to be washed and I need a baptism because this phone feels like so on right now and the wickedness is pulling me. So she poured, she got some ice, cold water, it was 95 degrees, poured cold water on my hands, had me wash my hands and she took the cold water. She put a cross on my forehead. And you know what she said to me? She said, remember your baptism?She said, remember your baptism? And when I was baptized, even though it was by a man who will not also be named, when I was baptized the wind, there was a whirlwind at my baptism. It was in 2004, that same wind hit in Mississippi and then I felt like I was supposed to take my shoes off. So I walked around the Mississippi Festival with no shoes on, not knowing that the earth was about to receive two people who did not deserve to be hung from trees. And there's something very, I feel real talk, I feel afraid for white supremacy right now in the name of my ancestors and I feel like I'm calling on everything right now. And that's also grounding me.Starlette (09:36):I was with Mother Moses last week. I went to Dorchester County just to be with her because the people were here. Take me. I said, I'll leave them all here. I know you said there are a few here, but give me the names, give me the last names of the people because I don't have time for this. I see why she left people. I see why she was packing. So to your point, I think it's important that we talk to the ancestors faithfully, religiously. We sit down at their feet and listen for a bit about how they got over and how they got through it and let them bear witness to us. And she does it for me every time, every single time she grounds, she grounds meDanielle (10:23):Listening to you all. I was like, oh wait. It is like Luke 19 where Jesus is coming in on the show and he didn't ride in on the fanciest plane on a donkey. And if you're familiar with that culture that is not the most elevated animal, not the elevated animal to ride, it's not the elevated animal. You don't eat it. Not saying that it isn't eaten at times, but it's not right. So he rides in on that and then people are saying glory to God in the highest and they're praising him and the Pharisees are like, don't do that because it's shameful and I don't remember the exact words, but he's basically be quiet. The rocks are going to tell the story of what happened here. He's walking his way. It kind of reminds me to me. So what you're saying, he's walking away, he's going to walk and he's going to walk that way and he's going to walk to his death. He's walking it in two scenarios that Jesus goes in to talk about. Your eyes are going to be blind to peace, to the real way to peace. It's going to be a wall put around you and you're going to miss out. People are going to destroy you because you missed your chance.Starlette (11:50):Point again creation. And if you're going to be a rock headed people, then I'll recruit this rock choir. They get ready to rock out on you. If there's nothing you're going to say. So even then he says that creation will bear witness against you. You ain't got to do it. You ain't got to do it. I can call these rock. You can be rock headed if you want to. You can be stony hearted if you want to. I can recruit choir members from the ground,Tamice (12:16):But not even that because y'all know I'm into the quantum and metaphysics. Not even that they actually do speak of course, like words are frequencies. So when you hold a certain type of element in your hand, that thing has a frequency to it. That's alright that they said whatever, I don't need it from you. Everything else is tapped into this.Starlette (12:39):Right. In fact, it's the rocks are tapped into a reality. The same reality that me and this donkey and these people throwing stuff at my feet are tapped into.You are not tapped into reality. And so that's why he makes the left and not the right because typically when a person is coming to Saka city, they head towards the temple. He went the other direction because he is like it was a big fuck. I don't use power like this. And actually what I'm about to do is raise you on power. This is a whole different type of power. And that's what I feel like our ancestors, the realities that the alternative intelligence in the world you're talking about ai, the alternative intelligence in the world is what gives me every bit of confidence to look this beast in the face and call it what it is. This isTamice (13:52):And not going to bow to it. And I will go down proclaiming it what it is. I will not call wickedness good.And Jesus said, Jesus was so when he talks about the kingdom of heaven suffering violence and the violence taken it by force, it's that it's like there's something so much more violent about being right and righteous. Y'all have to use violence because you can't tell the truth.Danielle (14:29):Do you see the split two? There's two entirely different realities happening. Two different kingdoms, two entirely different ways of living in this era and they're using quote J, but it's not the same person. It can't be, you cannot mix white Jesus and brown Jesus. They don't go together. TheyStarlette (15:00):Don't, what is it? Michael O. Emerson and Glenn e Bracy. The second they have this new book called The Religion of Whiteness, and they talk about the fact that European Americans who are racialized as white Tahi says those who believe they are white. He says that there's a group of people, the European Americans who are racialized as white, who turn to scripture to enforce their supremacy. And then there's another group of people who turn to scripture to support and affirm our sibling.It is two different kingdoms. It's funny, it came to me the other day because we talk about, I've talked about how for whiteness, the perception of goodness is more important than the possession of it.You know what I mean? So mostly what they do is seek to be absolved. Right? So it's just, and usually with the being absolved means I'm less bad than that, so make that thing more bad than me and it's a really terrible way to live a life, but it is how whiteness functions, and I'm thinking about this in the context of all that is happening in the world because it's like you cannot be good and racist period. And that's as clear as you cannot love God and mammon you will end up hating one and loving the other. You cannot love God. You cannotStarlette (16:29):Love God and hate your next of kin your sibling. Dr. Angela Parker says something really important During the Wild Goose Festival, she asked the participants there predominantly European American people, those racialized as white. She said, do you all Terry, do you Terry, do you wait for the Holy Spirit? Do you sit with yourself and wait for God to move? And it talked, it spoke to me about power dynamic. Do you feel like God is doing the moving and you wait for the spirit to anoint you, to fill you, to inspire you, to baptize you with fire? You Terry, do you wait a while or do you just the other end of that that she doesn't say, do you just get up? I gave my life to Jesus and it's done right handed fellowship, give me my certificate and walk out the door. You have to sit with yourself and I don't know what your tradition is.I was raised Pentecostal holiness and I had to tear all night long. I was on my knees calling on the name of Jesus and I swear that Baba couldn't hear me. Which octave do you want me to go in? I lost my voice. You know them people, them mothers circled me with a sheet and told me I didn't get it that night that I had to come back the next day after I sweat out my down, I sweat out my press. Okay. I pressed my way trying to get to that man and they told me he didn't hear me. He not coming to get you today. I don't hear a change. They were looking for an evidence of tongues. They didn't hear an evidence, a change speech. You still sound the way that you did when you came in here. And I think that white body supremacy, that's where the problem lies with me. There's no difference. I don't hear a change in speech. You're still talking to people as if you can look down your nose with them. You have not been submerged in the water. You did not go down in the water. White supremacy, white body supremacy has not been drowned out.Terry, you need to Terry A. Little while longer. I'll let you know when you've gotten free. When you've been lifted, there's a cloud of witnesses. Those mothers rubbing your back, snapping your back and saying, call on him. Call him like you want him. Call him like you need him and they'll tell you when they see evidence, they'll let you, you know when you've been tied up, tangled up. That's what we would say. Wrapped up in Jesus and I had to come back a second night and call on the Lord and then they waited a while. They looked, they said, don't touch her, leave her alone. He got her now, leave her alone. But there was an affirmation, there was a process. You couldn't just get up there and confess these ABCs and salvation, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Why do you think they'll let you know when you got it?Danielle (18:56):Why do you think that happened? Why? I have a question for You'all. Why do you think that became the reality of the prayer in that moment? And we're talking about Africans that have been brought here and enslaved. Why do you think that happened on our soil that way? Why question?Tamice (19:12):I mean I'm wondering about it because when stylists talk and I keep thinking the Terry in and of itself is a refusal. It says what I see is not real. What's in front of me is not right. I'm going to wait for something else.I'm saying, the slave Bible, them taking stuff out of the Bible and it's like, but I feel like the ground, there was something about the ground that indigenous people, that indigenous people were able to help them tap into over here. It was waiting on that.Starlette (19:49):We didn't have punishment. We had a percussion session. So they ring shouted me. I didn't know what it was at the time. We didn't have all the fancy stuff. Everybody had put me in key. We didn't have, we had this and feet them people circled around me. We don't do that no more.Danielle (20:06):We don't do that no more. But don't you think if you're a person that is, and I believe Africans came here with faith already. Oh yes, there's evidence of that. So put that aside, but don't you think then even if you have that faith and it's not so different than our time and you're confronted with slave owners and plantation owners also preaching quote the same faith that you're going to have to test it out on your neighbor when they're getting saved. You're going to have to make sure they didn't catch that bug.Don't you think there's something in there? Block it. Don't you think if you know faith internally already like we do and run into someone that's white that's preaching the same thing, we have to wait it out with them. Don't you think our ancestors knew that when they were here they were waiting it out. I just noticed my spirit match that spirit. We have to wait it out. Yes, because and let's say they didn't know Jesus. Some people didn't know Jesus and they met Jesus here for whatever reason, and your example is still the white man. You have to wait it out to make sure you're not reflecting that evilness. I mean that's what I'm thinking. That's it's the absolutelyStarlette (21:20):Truth. There's a book titled Slave Testimony, and I know this because I just read about it. There's a testimony of an enslaved African-American, he's unnamed. It was written on June 26th, 1821. He's talking to Master John. He said, I want permission to speak to you if you please. He talked about, he said, where is it? Where is it? A few words. I hope that you will not think Me too bull. Sir, I make my wants known to you because you are, I believe the oldest and most experienced that I know of. He says in the first place, I want you to tell me the reason why you always preach to the white folks and keep your back to us is because they sit up on the hill. We have no chance among them there. We must be forgotten because we are near enough. We are not near enough without getting in the edge of the swamp behind you. He was calling him to account. He said, when you sell me, do you make sure that I'm sold to a Christian or heathen?He said, we are charged with inattention because of where their position. He said it's impossible for us to pay good attention with this chance. In fact, some of us scarce think that we are preached to it all. He says, money appears to be the object. We are carried to market and sold to the highest bidder. Never once inquired whether you sold to a heathen or a Christian. If the question was put, did you sell to a Christian, what would the answer be? I can tell you, I can tell what he was, gave me my price. That's all I was interested in. So I don't want people to believe that Africans who were enslaved did not talk back, did not speak back. They took him to task. He said, everybody's not literate. There's about one in 50 people who are, and I'm one of them and I may not be able to speak very well, but this is what I want to tell you. I can tell the difference. I know that you're not preaching to me the same. I know that when you talk about salvation, you're not extending it to me.Yikes. You need to know that our people, these ancestors, not only were they having come to Jesus meetings, but they were having come to your senses, meeting with their oppressor and they wrote it down. They wrote it down. I get sick of the narratives that we are not our answer. Yes we are. Yes I am. I'm here because of them. I think they called me. I think they call me here. I think the fussing that I make, the anger that I possess this need to resist every damn thing. I think they make me do thatTamice (23:35):Indeed, I think. But I didn't get my voice until they took the MLE off, had an honor with my ancestors and they came and they told me it's time. Take that mle off, MLE off. Shoot. Why Jesus ain't tell me to take no muzzle off. I'm going to tell you that now.Danielle (23:52):That's why I mean many indigenous people said, Jesus didn't come back for me because if that guy's bringing me Jesus, then now Jesus didn't come back for me.Starlette (24:07):Come on.Make it plain. Danielle, go ahead. Go ahead. Walk heavy today. Yeah, I meanDanielle (24:17):I like this conversation. Why Jesus, why Jesus didn't come back for us, the three of us. He didn't come back for us. It didn't come back from kids. He didn't come back for my husband. Nope. And so then therefore that we're not going to find a freedom through that. No, that's no desire to be in that.Tamice (24:33):None. And that's what I mean and making it very, very plain to people like, listen, I actually don't want to be in heaven with your Jesus heaven. With your Jesus would be hell. I actually have one,Starlette (24:47):The one that they had for us, they had an N word heaven for us where they would continue to be served and they wrote it down. It's bad for people who are blio foes who like to read those testimonies. It is bad for people who like to read white body supremacy For Phil. Yeah, they had one for us. They had separate creation narratives known as polygenetic, but they also had separate alon whereby they thought that there was a white heaven and an inward heaven.I didn't even know that. Starla, I didn't even know that because they said they want to make sure their favorite slave was there to serve them. Oh yes, the delusion. People tell me that they're white. I really do push back for a reason. What do you mean by that? I disagree with all of it. What part of it do you find agreeable? The relationship of ruling that you maintain over me? The privilege. White power. Which part of it? Which part of it is good for you and for me? How does it help us maintain relationship as Christians?Danielle (25:47):I think that's the reality and the dissonance we live in. Right?Starlette (25:51):That's it. But I think there needs to be a separation.Are you a white supremacist or not?Tamice (26:03):That's what I'm saying. That's why I keep saying, listen, at this point, you can't be good and racist. Let me just say that. Oh no, you got to pickStarlette (26:12):And I need to hear itTamice (26:13):Both. Yeah. I need you to public confession of it.Starlette (26:19):Someone sent me a dm. I just want to thank you for your work and I completely agree. I quickly turned back around. I said, say it publicly. Get out of my dms. Say it publicly. Put it on your page. Don't congratulate me. Within two minutes or so. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to disturb you. You are right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Did he post anything? No. Say it publicly. Denounce them. Come out from among them.Very, very plain. As a white supremacist or na, as a kid, as children. HowDanielle (26:56):Hard is it? I think that's what made this moment so real and it's a kind of a reality. Fresher actually for everybody to be honest, because it's a reality. All certain things have been said. All manner of things have been said by people. This is just one example of many people that have said these things. Not the only person that's lived and died and said these things. And then when you say, Hey, this was said, someone's like, they didn't say that. You're like, no, some people put all their content on the internet receipts. They did it themselves. That's not true. And I went to a prayer vigil. I didn't go. I sat outside a prayer vigil this weekend and I listened in and they were praying for the resurrection like Jesus of certain people that have passed on. I kid you, I sat there in the car with a friend of mine and then my youngest daughter had come with me just to hang out. She's like, what are they praying for? I was like, they're like, they were praying for a certain person to be resurrected from the dead just like Jesus. And I was so confused. I'm so confused how we got that far, honestly. But I told my kid, I said, this is a moment of reality for you. This is a moment to know. People think like this.Starlette (28:13):Also, white bodyDanielle (28:14):Supremacy is heresy. Yes. It's not even related to the Bible. Not at all.Why I steal away. This is why even the mistranslated Bible, even the Bible that you could take,Starlette (28:33):ThisThe version Danielle started. If you wouldn't have said that, I wouldn't have said that. This is exactly why I steal away. This is exactly why I leave. Because you can't argue with people like that. Now we're resurrected. IAll I need, it's like away. This is exactly why, because I can't hear what Howard Thurman calls the sound of the genuine in that. It's just not going to happen.Danielle (29:01):Can you imagine what would've happened if we would've prayed for George Floyd to be resurrected? Listen, what would've happenedStarlette (29:08):That he called the scumbag.Danielle (29:10):Yeah, but what would've happened if we would've played for their resurrection? Adam, Adam Polito. ThatStarlette (29:19):Was foundTamice (29:19):Psychosis.Starlette (29:21):Yeah. What would've happened? See, don't push me now. I feel like I need to pack. As soon as I said fill away, it's like people keep saying, what are you going to do if gets worse? I'm going to leave my, I'll sell all this crapAbout this stuff. This booby trap of capitalism. I'll it all don't about none of it. What matters most to me is my sense of ness. And when you get to talking, I almost said talking out the side of your neck. Jesus God, today, lemme God Jesus of your neck. You just need to know that's a cultural thing. That's going to have to be reevaluated. God. It just came right on out. Oh Lord. When you start saying things that go against my sense of ness that you think that I have to defend my personhood, that you want to tell me that I don't exist as a person. I don't exist as a human. Back to your reality testament. It's time for me to leave. I'm not staying here and fighting a race war or a civil war. You mamas are just violent. It's what you've always been.Tamice (30:28):Why would I stand in the middle? Why would I stand in the middle of what I know is a confrontation with yourself?Starlette (30:36):Oh, okay. Alright. I'm going to justTamice (30:38):You all. What happened last week is it, it is a confrontation with a really disturbed self and they're trying to flip it. Oh yes. They're trying to make it. Yes. But this is like, I'm trying to tell people out here, this is beyond you, Jack, that was a prophetic witness against you because now you see that what you're fighting is the mirror. Keep me out of it. I won't fight your wars. Keep me out of it. Look, James Baldwin said, y'all have to decide and figure out why you needed a nigger in the first place.I'm not a nigger. I'm a man. But you, the white people need to figure out why you created the nigger in the first place. Fuck, this is not my problem. This is a y'all and I don't have anything invested in this. All I'm trying to do is raise my kids, man. Come on. Get out of here with that. I'm sorry.Danielle (31:48):No, you keep going and then go back to starlet. Why do you think then they made her Terry? They had to make sure she doesn't buy into that. That's my opinion.Tamice (32:00):It's funny too because I see, I mean, I wasn't Pentecostal. I feel like who's coming to mind as soon as you said that de y'all know I'm hip hop. Right? So KRS one.Starlette (32:12):Yes. Consciousness.Tamice (32:14):The mind. Oh yes, the mind, the imagination. He was, I mean from day one, trying to embed that in the youth. Like, Hey, the battlefield is the mind. Are you going to internalize this bullshit?Are you going to let them name you?Starlette (32:34):This is the word.Tamice (32:34):Are you going to let them tell you what is real for the people of God? That's That's what I'm saying, man. Hip hop, hip hop's, refusal has been refusal from day one. That's why I trust it.Because in seen it, it came from the bottom of this place. It's from the bottom of your shoe. It tells the truth about all of this. So when I listen to hip hop, I know I'm getting the truth.Starlette (32:57):Yeah. EnemyObjection. What did public enemy say? Can't trust it. Can't trust it. No, no, no, no. You got to play it back. We got to run all that back.Danielle (33:11):I just think how it's so weaponized, the dirt, the bottom of the shoe, all of that stuff. But that's where we actually, that's what got it. Our bodies hitting the road, hitting the pavement, hitting the grass, hitting the dirt. That's how we know we're in reality because we've been forced to in many ways and have a mindset that we are familiar with despite socioeconomic changes. We're familiar with that bottom place.Tamice (33:38):Yeah. I mean, bottom place is where God is at. That's what y'all don't understand. God comes from black, dark dirt, like God is coming from darkness and hiddenness and mystery. You don't love darkness. You don't love GodStarlette (33:56):Talk. Now this bottom place is not to be confused with the sunken place that some of y'all are in. I just want to be clear. I just want to be clear and I'm not coming to get you. Fall was the wrong day. TodayI think it's good though because there's so much intimidation in other communities at times. I'm not saying there's not through the lynchings, ongoing lynchings and violence too and the threats against colleges. But it's good for us to be reminded of our different cultural perspectives and hear people talk with power. Why do you think Martin Luther King and Cesar Chavez wrote letters to each other? They knew something about that and knew something about it. They knew something about it. They knew something about why it's important to maintain the bonds. Why we're different, why we're similar. They knew something about it. So I see it as a benefit and a growth in our reality. That is actually what threatens that, that relationship, that bond, that connection, that speaking life into one another. That's what threatens that kingdom that you're talking about. Yeah.You just can't fake an encounter either.When I was tear, no matter what I've decolonized and divested from and decentered, I cannot deny that experience. I know that God was present. I know that God touched me. So when mother even made sister, even made, my grandmother would call me when I was in college, first person to go to college. In our family, she would say before she asked about classes or anything else, and she really didn't know what to ask. She only had a sixth grade education. But her first question was always you yet holding on?Right. She holding on. And I said, yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Then she would, because it didn't matter if you couldn't keep the faith. There really wasn't nothing else for her to talk to you about. She was going to get ready to evangelize and get you back because you backslid. But that was her first thing. But what I've learned since then is that I can let go.The amazing thing is that the spirit is guiding me. I didn't let go all together. You got it. You got it. If it's real, if you're real, prove it. Demonstrate it. I'm getting chills now talk to me without me saying anything, touch me. I shouldn't have to do anything. Eugene Peterson says that prayer is answering speech. In fact, the only reason why I'm praying is because you said something to me first. It's not really on me to do anything. Even with the tear. I was already touched. I was already called. The reason why I was on my knees and pleading is because I'd already been compelled. Something had had already touched me. FirstThey called Holy Spirit. The hound of heaven. Damn right was already on my heels. I was already filled before I could even refuse. I was like, I don't want this. I'm going to always be star Jonah, get your people. I prefer fish guts. Throw me overboard. I don't like these people. Certified prophet because I don't want to do it. I never want to do it. I'm not interested at all. I have no too much history. I've had to deal with too much white body supremacy and prejudice and racism to want anything to do with the church. I see it for what? It's I'll never join one. By the way, are we recording? Is it on? I'm never joining a church ever. Until you all desegregate.You desegregate. Then we can talk about your ministry of reconciliation. Until then, you don't have one. Don't talk to me about a community day or a pulpit swap. I don't want to hear it. All Your praise. What did he say? A clinging, stumble, put away from me. Your conferences, all your multiracial. I don't want to hear none of it. Desegregate that part desegregate you, hypocrites, woe unto all of you white supremacists. If nobody ever told you that's not God. It's not of God. So I don't, for me, my reality is so above me, I know that Paul, because when I don't want to say anything, somebody is in my ear. Somebody was talking to me this morning. Somebody was writing a note in my ear. I had to get up. I said, please. I'm like, now I'm not even awake all the way. Stop talking to me. You can't fake that as much as I push against the Holy Spirit. You can't fake that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to say it. I'm of saying it. And yet I get up in the morning and it's like, say this, that post that. Write that. Somebody else is doing that. That's not me.As the mothers say, my flesh is weak. My flesh is not willing at all. I want to, all of y'all can go on. I'll pack this up and move somewhere else. Let them fight it to the death. I'm not going to, this is just my flesh speaking. Forgive me. Okay. This Raceless gospel is a calling friends. It's a calling. It's a calling, which means you coming into it. I'm an itinerant prophet. I'm heavy into the Hebrew scriptures. I come up with every excuse. My throat hurts. I got a speech impediment. The people don't like me. I'm not educated. It don't work. You need to know when people come to you and say, y'all need to get together, God speaking to you, the Pendo is coming. That's not like an invitation. That's kind of like a threat whether you want it or not. You're getting together.Everybody up. There's a meal ready, there's a banquet that is set and the food is getting cold and you are the reason why the drinks are watered down. That's go. You don't hear me calling you. ComeWhat I keep hearing. You have to know that God is speaking to people and saying that there's an invitation coming and you better get right. You better get washed up. Tam me said, you better let somebody pour that water over your hands. You better get washed up and get ready for dinner. I'm calling you. Come on in this house. Come on in this house. And this house is for everybody. Martin Luther King called it the world house. Everybody's coming in and you ain't got to like it doesn't matter. Get somewhere and sit down. That's that old church mother coming out of me and lemme just confess. I didn't even want to be on here this morning. I told God I didn't feel like talking. I told the Lord and you see what happened.Promise you. I'm a child. I'm full of disobedience.I was not in the mood. I said, I don't want to talk to nobody. I'm an introvert. I don't want to deal with none of this. Get somebody else to do it and look at it.Tamice (40:39):Yeah. It's funny because I woke up this morning, I was like, I'm not, I forgot. And then after all of the news today, I was like, I just don't have it in you, but this is, wait a minute. And it was three minutes past the time. Come on. And I was like, oh, well shoot. The house is empty. Nobody's here right now. I was like, well, lemme just log on. So this is definitely, it feels like definitely our calling do feel. I feel that way. I don't have time to bullshitSo I can't get out of it. I can't go to bed. I might as well say something. It won't let me go. I cannot do deceit. I can't do it. I can't sit idly by while people lie on God. I can't do that. I can't do it. It won't let up. And I'm trying to get in my body, get in this grass and get a little space. But I'm telling you, it won't let me go. And I feel it's important, Dee, you can't stop doing what you're doing. That's right. I mean is this thing of it is beyond me. It is living out of me. It's coming through me. And there has to be a reason for this. There's got to be a reason for this. And I don't know what it is because I know my eschatology is different, but I feel like, buddy, we got to manifest this kingdom. We have to manifest it until it pushes all that shit back. Come on. I'm telling you. Till it scurries it away or renders it and null and void, I'm talking. I mean, I want the type of light and glory on my being. That wicked logic disintegrate, wicked people drop dead. I mean that just in the Bible. In the Bible where Hert falls, headlong and worms eat em. Y'all celebrate that. Why can't I think about that? It's in your scriptures or daykin and the thing breaks and the legs of this false God break. I want that. I'm here for that. I'm going after that.Danielle (43:14):You think that this is what the definition of Terry is? That we're all Terry serious. I'm rocking the whole time. I'm serious. Right. That's what I told my kids. I said, in one sense, this is a one person of many that thinks this way. So we can't devote all our conversation in our house to this man. And I said in the other sense, because Starlet was asking me before he got here, how you doing? I said, we got up and I took calls from this person and that person and I told my kids, we're still advocating and doing what we can for the neighbors that need papers. And so we're going to continue doing that. That is the right thing to do. No matter what anybody else is doing in the world, we can do this.Tamice (43:56):Yeah, that's a good call. I mean, I'm headed to, I ain't going to say where I'm going no more, but I'm headed somewhere and going to be with people who are doing some innovation, right. Thinking how do we build a different world? How do our skillsets and passions coalesce and become something other than this? So I'm excited about that. And it's like that fire, it doesn't just drive me to want to rebuke. It does drive me to want to rebuild and rethink how we do everything. And I'm willing, I mean, I know that I don't know about y'all, but I feel like this, I'm getting out of dodge, but also I'm seeking the piece of the city. I feel both. I feel like I'm not holding hands with ridiculousness and I'm not moving in foolishness. But also I'm finna seek the piece of the city. My G I'm not running from delusion. Why would I? I'm in the truth. So I don't know how that maps onto a practical life, but we're finna figure it out. Out in it. I mean, the response of leadership to what has happened is a very clear sign where we are in terms of fascism. That's a very clear sign.What else y'all are looking for To tell you what it is.Danielle (45:36):But also we're the leaders. We are, we're the leaders. They're a leader of something, but they're not the leader of us. We're the leaders. We're the leaders. So no matter what they say, no matter what hate they spew, I really love Cesar Chavez. He's like, I still go out and feed the farm worker and I don't make them get on the boycott line because if they're pushed under the dirt, then they can't see hope. So people that have more economic power, a little more privilege than the other guy, we're the leaders. We're the ones that keep showing up in love. And love is a dangerous thing for these folks. They can't understand it. They can't grasp it. It is violent for them to feel love. Bodies actually reject it. And the more we show up, you're innovating. You're speaking Starla, you're preaching. We're the leaders. They're leaders of something. They're not leaders of us. We're leaders of freedom.Tamice (46:31):Come on now. D, we're leaders of give us thisStarlette (46:34):Bomb. We're leaders of compassion. You coming in here with the Holy Ghosts, acting like one of them church mothers. We were in the room together. She put our hand on us. YouDanielle (46:43):We're the ones that can remember Trey. We're the ones that can call for justice. We don't need them to do it. They've never done it. Right. Anyway. They have never showed up for a Mexican kid. They've never showed up for a black kid. They've never done it. Right. Anyway, we're the ones that can do it now. We have access to technology. We have access to our neighbors. We can bring a meal to a friend. We can give dollars to someone that needs gas. We're the the one doing it. We're the one that doing itTamice (47:11):Fill usDanielle (47:12):Up. They cannot take away our love.Starlette (47:15):Receive the benediction.Danielle: Yeah. They can't take it away. I'm telling you, if I saw someone shooting someone I hate, I would try to save that person. I don't own guns. I don't believe in guns, period. My family, that's my personal family's belief.And I would do that. I've thought about it many times. I thought would I do it? And I think I would because I actually believe that. I believe that people should not be shot dead. I believe that for the white kid. I believe that for the Mexican kid. I believe that for the black kid, we're the people that can show up. They're not going to come out here. They're inviting us to different kind of war. We're not in that war. That's right. We have love on our side and you cannot defeat love, kill love. You can'tTamice (48:04):Kill love and you can't kill life. That's the only reason somebody would ask you to be nonviolent. That's the only way somebody would've the audacity to ask that of you. Especially if you're oppressed. If the true is truth is that you can't kill love or life, damn man. It's hard out here for a pimp.Starlette (48:38):Really. Really? Yeah. Because what I really want to say isTamice (49:27):I can't. Your testimony a lie. No. Your testimony. That would be a lie. And like I said, truth telling is important. But there are days where I could be that I could go there, but I witnessed what happened that day. I watched the video. It's just not normal to watch that happen to anybody. And I don't care who you are. And the fact that we're there is just objectively just wow. And the fact that all of the spin and do y'all not realize what just happened? Just as a actual event. Right. What? You know, I'm saying how has this turned into diatribes? Right? We need reform. I, whichDanielle (50:29):Which, okay, so I have to cut us off. I have a client coming, but I want to hear from you, given all the nuance and complexity, how are you going to take care of your body this week or even just today? It doesn't have to be genius. Just one or two things you're going to do. Oh, I'm going toTamice (50:51):Take a nap. Yeah, you taking a nap? Y'all be so proud of me. I literally just said no to five things. I was like, I'm not coming to this. I'm not doing that. I won't be at this. I'm grieving. I'm go sit in the grass. Yeah, that's what I'm doing today. And I have stuff coming up. I'm like, Nope, I'm not available.Starlette (51:14):What about you Danielle? What are you going to do?Danielle (51:16):I'm going to eat scrambled eggs with no salt. I love that. I've grown my liver back so I have to have no salt. But I do love scrambled eggs. Scrambled eggs. That's the truth. Four. Four scrambled eggs.Starlette (51:31):And we thank you for your truth. BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity. Dr. Tamice Spencer - HelmsGod is not a weapon.  Authenticity is not a phase.Meet  Tamice Spencer-Helms (they/she). Tamice is a nonprofit leader, scholar-practitioner, pastor, and theoactivist based in Richmond, Virginia. For decades, Tamice has been guided by a singular purpose: to confront and heal what they call “diseased imagination”—the spiritual and social dis-ease that stifles agency, creativity, and collective flourishing. As a pastor for spiritual fugitives,  Tamice grounds their work at the intersection of social transformation, soulful leadership, womanist and queer liberation theologies, and cultural critique.A recognized voice in theoactivism, Tamice's work bridges the intellectual and the embodied, infusing rigorous scholarship with lived experience and spiritual practice. They hold two master's degrees (theology and leadership) and a doctorate in Social Transformation. Their frameworks, such as R.E.S.T. Mixtape and Soulful Leadership, which are research and evidence-based interventions that invite others into courageous truth-telling, radical belonging, and the kind of liberating leadership our times demand.​Whether facilitating retreats, speaking from the stage, consulting for organizations, or curating digital sanctuaries, Tamice's presence is both refuge and revolution. Their commitment is to help individuals and communities heal, reimagine, and build spaces where every person is seen, known, and liberated—where diseased imagination gives way to new possibilities. Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Please enjoy this interview for "Kingdom Racial Change: Overcoming Inequality, Injustice, and Indifference” by Michael A. Evans, David L. McFadden, and Michael O. EmersonLearn more at eerdmans.com

David Schrock is the Pastor for Preaching and Theology at Occoquan Bible Church in Woodbridge, VA, and a professor at Indianapolis Theological Seminary. Like many pastors, he was encouraged to read a little book called “Divided by Faith” many years ago. After careful biblical and theological reflection, David has published a book that is a point-by-point rebuttal to “Divided by Faith” called “Dividing the Faithful.” We discuss what led him to reevaluate the understanding many evangelicals have been sold regarding race in the church and highlight key errors in “Divided by Faith.”Support the show!! - https://www.patreon.com/chasedavisDividing the Faithful - https://amzn.to/40LfImxChrist Over All - https://christoverall.com/Follow David on Twitter - https://twitter.com/DavidSchrockSupport the showSign up for the Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/chasedavisFollow Full Proof Theology on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/fullprooftheology/Follow Full Proof Theology on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/fullprooftheology/

Michael Emerson joins Tyler Burns and Jemar Tisby on this week's episode of Pass The Mic to discuss Divided By Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America, the legacy of the book, it's impact on The Witness, as well as his family's faith journey and current work. The author of 15 books and over 100 other publications, Michael O. Emerson is recognized as a national leader in the study of race and religion and has won several awards for his scholarship. He is the principal investigator of the largest study of race and religion ever conducted in the United States, funded by the Lilly Endowment.  Support this podcast at patreon.com/PassTheMic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode we continue our conversation with Dr. Michael O. Emerson about what he sees as one way to understand how the American church has gotten to the place it is in today. He presents a diagnosis for understanding the current state of the American church's relationship with race and provides hopeful possibilities for the future. All that and more on this edition of the podcast. Leave us a short voice message or text message at (312) 725-2995.Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/questionsfromthepew

In this series we've been using the metaphor of an illness and its diagnosis to talk about the relationship between the church and the racial issues present in America. As the country has changed, so has the illness, growing worse at some points and getting better at others. Good observation can lead to a helpful diagnosis of a problem, whether in part or in its entirety.In this episode we're joined by Dr. Michael O. Emerson and talk about the diagnosis that he proposes based on his current research. He talks about his current research and how it helps us understand how the American church has gotten to the place it is in today. He presents a diagnosis for understanding the current state of the American church's relationship with race and provides hopeful possibilities for the future. All that and more on this edition of the podcast. Leave us a short voice message or text message at (312) 725-2995.Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/questionsfromthepew

Reparations: the idea lives in American history and in today’s headlines. Inside Out guest Dan Crain believes the ideas of reparations has a biblical foundation. We see it in the restoration proclaimed in the Bible and embodied by Jesus Christ. Below are some of the resources on racial reconciliation that Dan mentions in the podcast. Videos  The Bible Project’s  Justice Phil Vischer and The Holy Post’s Let’s Talk About Race in America Article  Reparations Are Biblical, by Thabiti Anyabwile   Books  Be the Bridge, by Latasha Morrison The Color of Compromise, by Jemar Tisby Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith Oneness Embraced, by Tony Evans   Learn about the One Race Movement through which Dan Crain ministers.

On episode twenty-three, I'm talking to Susan Cho Van Riesen about her experience as a female lead pastor, Asian American ethnic and cultural concerns, and much more! About Susan: Susan Cho Van Riesen fell in love with Jesus during her undergraduate years at Occidental College. Since then she has been a worker for the Kingdom of God through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, through being a mom of three wonderful children and in her role the Lead Pastor of the Palo Alto Vineyard Church (https://pavineyard.or). She loves to talk about adoption, parenting a child with special needs, gardening, backyard chickens, and racial justice. Check out her blog: http://showerheadsandhairdryers.blogspot.com. Recommended Resources: "Rethinking Incarceration: Advocating for Justice That Restores," by Dominique DuBois Gilliard (https://amzn.to/3vkAzNq) "Prophetic Lament: A Call for Justice in Troubled Times," by Soong-Chan Rah (https://amzn.to/30C9C9T) "United by Faith: The Multiracial Congregation As an Answer to the Problem of Race," by Curtiss Paul DeYoung, Michael O. Emerson, George Yancey, & Karen Chai Kim (https://amzn.to/3cpWpXd) "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," by Yuval Noah Harari (https://amzn.to/2N9V0eK) "Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood," by Lisa Damour (https://amzn.to/3eyXoHk)

In this episode of The Urban Perspective I get interviewed by the As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson. They welcome me to discuss and define dominant and subdominant cultural dynamics and break down how members of each group can interact in an understanding way that promotes deeper love for each other and for God. Jerome Gay helps us see and avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls like power dynamics, preferences, and self-hatred. Books referenced in this episode: ~ “The Whitewashing of Christianity: A Hidden Past, A Hurtful Present, and A Hopeful Future” by Jerome Gay – https://www.amzn.com/1953156029?tag=t... ~ “Divided by Faith” by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith – https://www.amzn.com/0195147073?tag=t... ~ “Rediscipling the White Church” by David W. Swanson – https://www.amzn.com/0830845976?tag=t... @jeromegay #theurbanperspective --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Martin Luther King Jr. once said, “It is appalling that the most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o’clock on Sunday morning.” King said this about race in 1963, but it is still largely true today. According to sociologist Michael O. Emerson, a multiracial or multiethnic church is one in which at least 20% of attendees do not belong to the majority race or ethnicity. In 2019, just 23% of churches crossed that threshold. And there is evidence of a growing class divide in church attendance, with working class Americans less likely to attend church than middle class Americans, at least among whites. The questions pastors and other church leaders need to ask themselves is this: Does this concern me? And what can I do about it? Those are two questions, among others, that I am asking David Docusen in this episode of the Influence Podcast. I’m George P. Wood, executive editor of Influence magazine, and your host. David Docusen is author of Neighborliness: Finding the Beauty of God Across Dividing Lines. A credentialed Assemblies of God minister, he has 20 years of ministry experience as a pastor, church planter, and community developer. ----- This episode of the Influence Podcast is brought to you by My Healthy Church, distributors of Bible Engagement Project. Most people have access to the Bible, but few regularly engage with it. Bible Engagement Project equips churches with digital Bible study resources to help people of all ages read and understand Scripture so they can become more like Jesus and live radically changed lives. Bible Engagement Project is available in both English and Spanish. Visit BibleEngagementProject.com to learn more.

Disclaimer: This episode has been marked as explicit due to sensitive language related to racial slurs. Please listen with discretion.In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Jerome Gay to discuss and define dominant and subdominant cultural dynamics and break down how members of each group can interact in an understanding way that promotes deeper love for each other and for God. Jerome Gay helps us see and avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls  like power dynamics, preferences, and self-hatred. The group addresses:An introduction to Jerome Gay (1:07)Defining dominant and subdominant culture (2:18)Differences between dominant and subdominant cultures (4:14)Individualism vs. Collectivism (7:06)Societal influence (10:15)Culture and the Regulative Principle (13:09)Cultural impact on exegesis (17:18)High profile cultural moments (19:06)Subdominant cultures in dominant culture churches (25:28)Common misunderstandings of churches in the dominant culture (28:15)“We want your color but not your culture.” (30:37)What members of the dominant culture should know about subdominant (32:19)Why that question matters to gospel advancement (35:24)Internal dynamics between subdominant cultural groups (40:48)Urban apologetics (52:30)Explore more from TGC on the topic of race.DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:1. What does it mean for there to be a dominant and minority culture? How would you identify the dominant culture and minority culture in America? Your church?2. What are some values that might be different between a dominant and minority culture?3. Jerome Gay points to the values of individualism and collectivism. How do these values shape the church and how does this differ between cultures?4. What does it look like for a dominant culture to become domineering? What are ways that can happen subtly or unintentionally? How does this impact the church?5. How does a church seek to make space for both dominant and minority cultures in its ministry and worship?Books referenced in this episode:The Whitewashing of Christianity: A Hidden Past, A Hurtful Present, and A Hopeful Future by Jerome GayDivided by Faith by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith Rediscipling the White Church by David W. Swanson 

As if justice and Christianity cannot coexist, the pursuit of a just society has led many to abandon their faith. What should we make of this? Dr. Michael O. Emerson joins us to talk about his recent article “Goodbye Christ. I’ve Got Justice Duty.” Together, we ask how does individualism affect how justice is understood within particular Christian communities? Has justice been politicized? What is American Christianity’s role within the current polarized political climate? How can the Church pursue justice while maintaining a faithful witness to the Kingdom of God? All that and more on this edition of Questions From The Pew.Resources:“Goodbye Christ. I’ve Got Justice Duty” by Michael O. EmersonDivided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America by Michael O. EmersonRacial Justice and Unity CenterLeave us a short voice message or text message at (312) 725-2995.Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/questionsfromthepew

Poet, preacher, activist, storyteller, and co-founder of MVMNT Collaborative, Tinasha LaRayé joins the Woman Beings to share on racial justice, black history, kingdom principles, and the role of women in the black history movement. Disclaimer: We mention the death of Jacob Blake near the beginning of the episode, and just wanted to clarify that we misspoke. Jacob Blake is alive and currently hospitalized because of the incident with the police. Resources Mentioned: Why We Can’t Wait by Martin Luther King Jr.: https://bit.ly/2FjRmKX Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? by Beverly Daniel Tatum: https://bit.ly/3mamsWC The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander: https://bit.ly/2ZfPFp8 13th on Netflix: https://bit.ly/3bJ9dr6 Divided by Faith by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith: https://bit.ly/3h6GugY White Awake by Daniel Hill: https://bit.ly/2R0QqxM The Roadmap to Reconciliation by Brenda Salter McNeil: https://bit.ly/327TBKx Follow Tinasha on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamtinashalaraye/ --- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/womanbeingpodcast/ Website: https://www.womanbeingcommunity.com/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

We discuss the book Divided By Faith by Christian Smith and MIchael O. Emerson which can you find here: https://www.amazon.com/Divided-Faith-Evangelical-Religion-Problem/dp/0195147073 To learn more about Christian Smith go here: https://sociology.nd.edu/people/christian-smith/ And to learn more about Michael O. Emerson go here: https://soc.uic.edu/profiles/emerson-michael/Support the show (http://paypal.me/textualintercourse)

Part two of our response to objections raised concerning the episode on Whiteness Recommended reading on the topics discussed in this episode: Divided by Faith by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith

In this episode, we talk with Rev. David Wright who is the Assistant to the Pastor of the Peoples Baptist Church (PBC) in the Roxbury neighborhood of Boston, MA. David is also the Executive Director of the Black Ministerial Alliance of Greater Boston. We learn from David about the long-standing history of community engagement for the Peoples Baptist Church, which has been a pillar for the African American community in Boston for over 200 years. He shares about some of the distinct ways that the black church engages its community in the US and how movements such as ‘urban renewal' and gentrification have impacted the ministry of PBC over its more recent history. And finally, we broach the subject of racial justice and discuss how this issue looks coming into the national spotlight at this particular time from the perspective of the African American community. Access more Show Notes with pictures and resources related to this episode.More information about this podcast and helpful church and urbanism resources can be found on The Embedded Church website.Related ResourcesDivided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and Problem of Race in America by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith unChristian: What A New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity. . .And Why It Matters by David Kinnaman  Abolitionist Movement William Lloyd GarrisonFind these Key Terms on The Embedded Church website:- Mixed Income Neighborhood- Proximity - Urban Renewal Show CreditsHosted and Produced by Eric O. Jacobsen and Sara Joy ProppeEdited by Adam Higgins | Odd Dad Out Voice ProductionsTheme Music by Jacob ShafferArtwork by Lance Kagey | Rotator Creative

Episode Notes: In today’s episode, Pastors Stephen Law and Sean Clemons discuss racism in America, and share practical steps you can take if you are struggling with the question, “What can I do?” Access the show notes below, search for Vantage Point on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify or gracecov.org/vantagepoint.  Practical Steps: Have conversations with your African American friends, coworkers, and/or spiritual family.  Attend, participate and/or serve at a Black Lives Matter’s protest.  Take time to educate yourself.  Use your voice on social media and/or through legislation and political change. Take time to pray and share the Gospel.  Recommended Resources:  1 John 5:14  Jeremiah 5  Be the Bridge by Latasha Morrison Divided by Faith by Michael O. Emerson & Christian Smith  The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby  Before the Mayflower: A History of the Negro in America, 1619 - 1962 by Leronne Bennett Black Labor, White Wealth: The Search for Power and Economic Justice by Claud Anderson  Parting the Waters : America in the King Years 1954-63 by Taylor Branch Did this episode help you see your faith, life, and culture more clearly? If so, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. Follow us on @gracecovya. 

In the past few weeks, our country has been reminded of the reality of racism. As Christian leaders, how should we as the church be responding? And what can we do on an individual basis?  While some of us may not be affected by or see racism on a regular basis, the issue was brought to light in a significant way in recent weeks due to the death of George Floyd (among other incidents). As I considered this issue, I knew this was something I wanted to address on this podcast. Yet I knew that I needed to invite someone who has the expertise to speak to this topic. In this episode, I’m talking with my friend Dr. Shannon Polk. Shannon shares her leadership journey and how she ended up as a lawyer, associate pastor, wife, and mother. Despite being encouraged in her leadership gifts for most of her childhood and young adult years, she still faced doubts about her gifts and leadership ability later in adulthood. We also dive into the topic of racism and how the church can and should respond. Shannon provides both historical and personal insights into this issue, helping us to understand the origins of some of the practices that still live on today (even if they are no longer policies). Finally, Shannon and I dive into how we can practically respond as individuals, as well as one caveat we should all be looking out for as we navigate this season. This incredibly powerful conversation is a must-listen for all Christian leaders (not just women), so I encourage you to consider sharing it after you listen. Become a Partner & Get Access to Bonus Content This post contains affiliate links, which means if you choose to make a purchase via one of the links, we will receive a commission at no extra cost to you. This helps to support the costs of running the podcast and blog. Key Points Discussed: Shannon’s current life & leadership [4:06] Her leadership journey [7:20] Natural gifting for leadership Encouragement from family and other leaders When Shannon faced doubts about her leadership [16:00] The current events involving racism and the church’s response [28:48] The need to speak up if you see racism happening The importance of listening Shannon’s own experiences The issue of dehumanization  The issue of segregation of our churches & how it started [40:00] Historical background Redlining and how this impacts the segregation Look at the message you are sending to the black community Dealing with the discomfort [50:15] Asking God to search our hearts Examining our own biases The need to change policies and practices The practical ways that we can do better as individuals (even if you’re in a predominantly white area) [59:44] Educate yourself Adopt a listening posture Speaking up vs. doing the inner work [1:05:00] Communication is key Recognize you may not get it right Look at your structures and see if you have people who can help you craft the message Don’t let the fear of saying the wrong thing stop you from saying anything Build the relationships  Caution about the rush to normalcy [1:11:20] Leaders are learners [1:13:45]  Key Quotes from the Episode: Quotes are by Shannon Polk unless otherwise noted. “We are women and there's a place for us in the body and there’s a place for us outside of the body.” “Go where you’re celebrated, not where you’re tolerated.” “If we want to really release women to do all that God has created them to do, we need to let them lead with all of who they are.”  “Imagine living in that tension every day; where the simplest encounter could escalate beyond your wildest imagination.” “You wouldn’t leave your sex education of your kids up to Netflix, so why would you leave the education of race up to Netflix, up to the media, up to the neighbors next door?”  “We have to ask ourselves: are we willing to be uncomfortable?”  “Are you willing to lock arms with your black brothers and sisters in a way that could inconvenience you, and could possibly even harm you?”  “Instagram activism is super easy.... Are you willing to be that person to stand up and say ‘this isn’t right’ if it could cost you your job?” “What Christian authors are you reading that are not white?” “We’re not expecting you to get it right, but we’re expecting you to participate in the journey.”   Links and Resources Mentioned: Be the Bridge Episode 2: What is Leadership and Why Does Your Leadership Matter? The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism by Jemar Tisby Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America by Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith Leadership Pain: The Classroom for Growth by Samuel Chand Didn't See It Coming: Overcoming the Seven Greatest Challenges That No One Expects and Everyone Experiences by Carey Nieuwhof Take the Day Off: Receiving God's Gift of Rest by Robert Morris Connect with Dr. Shannon Polk: Website Twitter Facebook Instagram   Shannon Polk, JD, DMin is an associate pastor at Riverside Tabernacle in Flint, Michigan.  She is an attorney and consultant on issues of race, gender, faith, and leadership. Become a Podcast Partner & Receive Bonus Content We have a fun way for you to partner with the podcast and get access to exclusive content. Every month, we add at least 1 bonus clip from an interview or from Holly and I to a special podcast for our partners. You can become a podcast partner for as little as $5/month by clicking here. Connect with Esther and Holly: Esther’s Website Holly’s Website Instagram Facebook Group Facebook Page   This episode was originally published on estherlittlefield.com/episode103.

In this episode, I sit with Nick Parker and Hunter Beauchamp, two men on staff with Christ Church Irving in Texas. We start the conversation of how Christian Men ought to respond to racism and then turn to how Churches everywhere can respond. Follow me on Twitter -- @WACIdeaPodcast Christ Church Irving & Bear Creek -- https://christchurchirving.com/media/series/reset/christ-church-and-bear-creek/?media=video Elmina Slave Castle -- https://theculturetrip.com/africa/ghana/articles/ghana-s-slave-castles-the-shocking-story-of-the-ghanaian-cape-coast/ Emmit Till Story -- https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-death-of-emmett-till Mary Turner -- http://www.maryturner.org/ Books to Explore -- "White Awake" by Daniel Hill & Brenda Salter McNeil and/or "Divided by Faith" by Michael O. Emerson & Christian Smith If you would like to help Peaceful Protesters -- https://www.facebook.com/groups/589577068339373/?multi_permalinks=590006341629779%2C590079041622509%2C590029358294144%2C589967914966955%2C589711701659243¬if_id=1591244912218359¬if_t=group_activity --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/whatacuriousidea/message

We sit down with a member of our church, John Warren, and listen to his story of growing up Black in America in the 50s and 60s. Recommended reading on the topics discussed in this episode: Divided by Faith By Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith

We explore excellence with exciting career news, removing ingrown toenails, and avoiding zombies. Then we attain imperfections in our budget and exercise routines. We start our discussion on Alison Gopnik's book, "The Gardener & The Carpenter" with a discussion on why the "parenting" model is insufficient, the connection between immaturity & prolonged lifespan, and the powers of oxytocin to "tend & befriend" but also to make ingroup versus outgroup. We then take a major to detour to discuss ingroup versus outgroup in the context of institutional racism and vaccine hesitancy. Then we end with a new quote for the Parent Board! Show Notes: Exploring Excellence 2:45 Attaining Imperfection 07:28 Book Review 10:48 36:19 - The book I mention - Divided By Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America by Michael O. Emerson & Christian Smith Parent Board 47:11

Thinking Out Loud is a place to digest audibly the things we tend to think through silently. We'll look at a variety of complex issues from a variety of points of view, not necessarily to get to "right answers" but to build empathy and perspective. Today I'm joined by Brian Saunders to discuss whether or not America is, was, or ever can be a Christian nation. To hear the full conversation consider joining us on our Patreon Page for as little as $3/month you can receive all the perks! For continued thought on this topic check out the resources below: The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church by Greg Boyd Jesus Untangled: Crucifying Our Politics to Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb by Keith Giles Jesus for President: Politics for Ordinary Radicals by Shane Claiborne and Chris Haw Unsettling Truths: The Ongoing, Dehumanizing Legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery by Mark Charles and Soong-Chan Rah Divided by Faith: Evangelical Religion and the Problem of Race in America  by Michael O. Emerson and Chris Smith The 10 Big Lies About America: Combating Destructive Distortions About Our Nation by Michael Medved If You Can Keep It: The Forgotten Promise of American Liberty by Eric Metaxas America: Imagine a World without Her by Dinesh D'souza Politics - According to the Bible: A Comprehensive Resource for Understanding Modern Political Issues in Light of Scripture by Wayne Grudem Follow Thinking Out Loud: Facebook / Twitter / Instagram Follow LOWERCASEPEOPLE: Facebook / Twitter / Instagram Follow MinistryCrate: Facebook / Twitter / Instagram --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

This one is a doozy! And it's both here and in the Depolarize! Podcast feed because it's just that good. Sociologist Michael O. Emerson breaks down his and Christian Smith's argument as to why White Evangelical Christians have such a bad track record on racial issues, summarized in their co-authored "Divided by Faith." This is the best explanation that I have ever heard or read regarding this phenomenon. “Divided by Faith”: https://smile.amazon.com/Divided-Faith-Evangelical-Religion-Problem/dp/0195147073/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=divided+by+faith&qid=1553212642&s=gateway&sr=8-1 Pass the Mic Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pass-the-mic/id1435500798?mt=2 Join the Patreon for bonus episodes every month: patreon.com/dankoch YHP Patron-only FB group: https://tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: youhavepermissionpod.com Join Dan's email list: dankochwords.com Email Dan: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com Artwork by http://sprungle.co/

This one is a doozy! And it’s both here and in the You Have Permission Podcast feed because it’s just that good. Sociologist Michael O. Emerson breaks down his and Christian Smith’s argument as to why White Evangelical Christians have such a bad track record on racial issues, summarized in their co-authored “Divided by Faith.” … Continue reading Evangelicalism’s Racial Blindspot, Explained →

Today, there are a lot of people fighting for justice. From Black Lives Matter to the refugee crisis, our world is full of injustices happening both nationally and internationally. But how should we define justice? And what injustices should we be a part of, if any? This, mental health, how to improve Twitter, and more on this episode of the New Rules Podcast.   Tim Keller - Generous Justice Andy Crouch - Playing God Michelle Alexander - The New Jim Crow Michael O. Emerson and Christian Smith - Divided by Faith   Adrian Crawford Facebook: Adrian Crawford Instagram: @adriancrawford5 Twitter: @adriancrawford   Billy Humphrey Facebook: Billy Humphrey Instagram: @billy_humphrey Twitter: @billy_humphrey Snapchat: @billyhumphrey3