Podcast appearances and mentions of eugene peterson

It's January, which means it's time for our annual team conversation — just Jason, Willy, and Dan talking about where we are, where the CRC is, and where we think things need to go.                                                                                      After life updates (Dan's upcoming sabbatical, Willy's new pastor in Pease, Jason's transition into school ministry), we dive into an honest assessment of the denomination's current state. Willy frames it well: the CRC has spent the last few years establishing what we're against, but now we're struggling to articulate what we actually stand for. That's the opposite of how our confessions work — they lead with affirmations, then denials. We've done it backwards.                                                                    The result? An unsettling quietness across the denomination. People are asking "now what?" and nobody has a clear answer. We talk about the temptation to start another fight just to rally the troops — and why that's exactly the wrong move. This is the rebuilding   phase. And rebuilding starts with identity.        Timestamps:                                                                                                                            - 0:00 — Intro                                                                                                                         - 2:47 — Dan's update: sabbatical, candidacy gathering, Quorum Deo Conference - 4:46 — Willy's update: new pastor at Pease, COD work, biennial synods, RCA dialogue committee                             - 7:13 — Jason's update: school ministry, teaching systematic theology, grieving Greg Zonnefeld          - 10:03 — The state of the CRC post-Synod 2025 - 11:04 — "We've established what we're against — now what do we stand for?"     - 14:09 — The Eugene Peterson story: what happens after you "win"  - 17:35 — Classis renewal and organizational challenges - 21:01 — The CRC's lack of vision                                                                                                     - 22:07 — Local church leadership vs. looking to denominational HQ     - 24:27 — How classes can share gifts and work together     - 31:24 — "What we're doing isn't working"     Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/                                                                      Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org                                                                             Intro music by Matt Krotzer

As we continue to explore "missional discipleship," we now turn to the Gospel of John as a guide for practical disciple-making. We imitate Jesus, and in John 1:14, we are told that through the incarnation, Jesus was "among" us. Or, as Eugene Peterson once put it, He "moved into the neighborhood." 

Guiding Question: How can believers remain faithful and passionate in their walk with Christ from beginning to end, especially when facing hardship, cultural opposition, or spiritual fatigue? Summary: In this powerful and pastoral message, the speaker challenges Christians not just to begin well in their faith journey but to finish strong. Drawing from 2 Timothy 4:1–8, the sermon highlights Paul's final exhortations to Timothy, urging him to preach the Word, endure hardship, fulfill his ministry, and do the work of an evangelist. It offers a contrast between faithful endurance and spiritual dropout, emphasizing the value of perseverance and commitment in a world eager to embrace falsehood over truth. The message is both a call to spiritual endurance and a warning against cultural myths that divert believers from the truth. Using stories, illustrations, and scriptural insight, the speaker paints a vivid picture of a life fully poured out in service to God—encouraging all believers to evaluate where they stand and recommit to a long obedience in the same direction. Outline: I. Starting Strong in Ministry (2 Timothy 4:1–2) Charge to preach the Word Be ready in and out of season Reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience II. Challenges to Faithfulness (2 Timothy 4:3–4) The time will come when people reject sound doctrine Desire for “ear-tickling” teaching Accumulation of false teachers according to personal desires Turning aside to myths III. Call to Endure and Fulfill Your Ministry (2 Timothy 4:5) Be sober-minded Endure hardship Do the work of an evangelist Fulfill your ministry IV. Examples of Faithful Finishing (2 Timothy 4:6–8) Paul's life as a drink offering “I have fought the good fight, finished the race, kept the faith” Anticipation of the crown of righteousness V. Contrast Between Starters and Finishers Many start strong but fall away The difficulty of sustaining enthusiasm and discipline Cultural distractions and spiritual attrition VI. Application and Encouragement Personal reflection on spiritual growth and perseverance Avoiding superficial Christianity Staying excited about the faith and sharing the gospel Learning from older saints who have finished well Key Takeaways: Preaching the gospel is often hard and may lead to rejection, but we are still called to be faithful. Evangelism is work, not just an occasional event left to professionals. The Christian life requires endurance, especially when truth becomes inconvenient or unpopular. Our culture increasingly rejects sound doctrine in favor of comfort and self-justification. Many drop out of faith not for intellectual reasons but because they refuse to change their lifestyle. Paul serves as a model of finishing strong, having kept the faith through trials and ultimately receiving the reward. Believers should strive not only for a passionate start but for a lifelong commitment that finishes well. Scriptural References: 2 Timothy 4:1–8 Acts 14:19–20 (Paul stoned at Lystra) Jeremiah 5:30–31 (False prophets and people's delight in lies) Isaiah 8:19 (Warning against seeking mediums instead of God) Romans 12:1 (Living sacrifices) Philippians 3:12–14 (Pressing on toward the goal) Romans 1:25 (Exchanging the truth for a lie) Eugene Peterson's book: A Long Obedience in the Same Direction Recorded 2/22/81

In this episode, pastors Clark Nunnelly and Hunter Beaumont join the podcast to discuss A Heart Aflame for God by Matthew Bingham and explore what “spiritual formation” means within a Reformed framework. They unpack Bingham's central claim that true spiritual formation is rooted in and fueled by Scripture and aimed at engaging the heart through the mind. They consider why many believers crave greater depth, how historic Reformed practices like Scripture reading, meditation, and prayer address that hunger, and why going deeper into Scripture is the path to lasting formation.Resources mentioned in this episode:A Heart Aflame for God: A Reformed Approach to Spiritual Formation by Matthew BinghamThe Divine Conspiracy: Rediscovering Our Hidden Life In God – The Masterful Guide to Apprenticing to Jesus and Authentic Christian Faith by Dallas WillardPracticing the Way: Be with Jesus. Become like him. Do as he did. by John Mark ComerAnswering God: The Psalms as a Tool for Prayer by Eugene PetersonCelebration of Discipline by Richard Foster

In this episode, Diana's special guest Jake Doberenz, founder of Theophany Media and host of the Creatively Christian podcast, shares his expertise on effective Bible study. The discussion covers essential principles of biblical interpretation, the importance of studying scripture in community, and approaches to understanding difficult passages. Listeners are also guided on selecting appropriate Bible translations and utilizing various online resources, ensuring a comprehensive and balanced approach to scripture study. The episode concludes with a prayer for listeners' spiritual journey and their engagement with the scriptures. Bio: Jake Doberenz isn't one thing. He identifies as a polymath, a Renaissance man, or a multipotentialite–one interest or specialty can't contain him. But enough of the third-person. I am a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK with my wife Samantha. My most significant role is the founder and president of Theophany Media, a Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians engage with culture through new media. I have earned my Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my Bachelor's degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies. I also worked at my alma mater as a Resident Director and Bible TA. I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums, like podcasts and video. My favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about (though always changing) include: creating Christian art, helping people understand the Bible better, Christian identity, theology of social media, use of humor in faith messages, superheroes and theology, and a Christian response to culture. If you want to see his progress, achievements, and appearances sign up for the newsletter so you'll never miss an update! website: Home – Jake Doberenz 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:44 Introducing the Guest: Jake Doberenz 02:43 Jake's Background and Interests 05:56 Jake's Teaching Journey 10:46 Bible Study for Abuse Survivors 13:25 Choosing the Right Bible Translation 18:42 Understanding the Bible Without Knowing Greek or Hebrew 21:34 Basic Rules of Bible Interpretation 25:43 Embracing Uncomfortable Bible Stories 26:47 Using Jesus as a Lens for Interpretation 30:54 The Importance of Community in Bible Study 34:14 Red Flags in Spiritual Leadership 37:02 Recommended Bible Study Resources 41:33 Exploring Different Perspectives 44:58 Connecting with the Speaker 46:29 Closing Prayer and Final Thoughts   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/ Jake Doberenz [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana . She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hey there, everybody. Come on in, set for a spell. How are you guys doing? I appreciate your support in listening to the podcast, and I hope that you are enjoying some really encouraging words and practical things for you to do your own Bible study and read the word of God for yourself. We have a new guest on the show now I'm very familiar with his podcast, creatively Christian. I've been on his podcast. His show has a few different interviewers. And so [00:02:00] Andrea Sandifer, who you guys know that was on the show, she interviewed me on her show. And our guest today, Jake Doberenz, the man behind that podcast, he is a funny guy. He likes to bring humor from the Bible. And I've been reading his blog and following his newsletters. And his Facebook group. So I thought he would be a great addition to the podcast , and I think you're gonna love him. I'm gonna tell you a little bit about him. He has a lot of interest here, so here we go. Jake, Doberenz isn't one thing. He identifies as a polymath, a renaissance man or a multipotentialite. One interest or specialty, can't contain him. So he [00:03:00] says of himself, but enough of the third person. I'm a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker, living in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. My most significant role is the founder and president of Theophany Media. A Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians engage with culture through new media. I have earned my Master of Theological studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my bachelor's degree in Bible with a minor in communication studies. I also worked at my alma matter as a resident director and bible ta. I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and [00:04:00] devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums like podcasts and video, my favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about. Although always changing, include creating Christian art, helping people understand the Bible better. Christian identity, theology of social media, use of humor in faith messages, super heroes and theology, any Christian response to culture. So this is gonna be awesome. So I hope that you enjoy my conversation with Jake Doberenz. Please welcome to the show, Jake Doberenz. Thanks for coming on today. Sure thing, anytime. I'm glad to be here. I really enjoyed being on your [00:05:00] podcast, A creatively Christian, and Andrea interviewed me and then she was on my podcast and I follow your Facebook group and get your. Very humorous email newsletter. And so I thought you were the perfect fit to come on to the podcast. And you're a bible geek like me, and you have a different perspective on life. In the Bible, you find humor in the Bible, which a lot of people don't find the Bible very funny. So welcome to the show. Yeah, I'm glad to be here providing some humor and quite possibly even some wisdom and intelligent comments. We'll see if we get to that part. So you haven't been on the podcast before, so. Tell the folks a little bit about yourself and your family. Okay? Yeah. Always a fun question because where do you [00:06:00] start? Where do you end? But yeah. I am in Oklahoma City right now. I'm an Oregon native and got stuck in Oklahoma. Stuck sounds too negative, but I got planted here. That sounds better. I got my bachelor's degree in biblical studies with a minor in communication studies. I have a Master's of Theological studies and for a while I was kind of going down the Bible professor route. That was gonna be my thing. And it's not like completely off the table right now, but it is not my chief kind of path anymore because there are not a lot of jobs in that area and there's a lot of different things there that make it quite challenging. A lot of schooling, a lot of debt for maybe not so much reward, but we'll see what the future brings. I am still flexing my desires to write and teach. That has always been what I wanted to do, even when the subject changed, even when it [00:07:00] was cat psychology or whatever, I always wanted to write and teach and so I'm still doing that in in different ways. I'm certainly still using my degrees, even though I'll be going into teaching middle school geography this year. Ooh, kind of a new adventure. Add some more skills and weird things on my resume. That's kind of how I do it. So geography. Cool. I think that's me. Yeah. Yeah. That's very brave. Middle school, that particular age, did you pick the age group you were teaching or did they just kind of throw you in there? I applied to high school and middle school. I wasn't going to do anybody under middle school and the high school jobs never called me back. And the, I got some different offerings on the middle school side of thing, so I said, okay, that's what you want me to do. God, I will walk into this wilderness. And then they gave me some kind of choices between, and I chose sixth grade specifically, so I'll be with, with sixth graders. [00:08:00] They, uh, we still have some childlike heart and wonder. They're not so jaded like they get when they're a little older, but they're just mature enough where you can start to get a little more serious. So good age. Hmm. I liked sixth grade. It was a good year. We'll be praying for you either way, because that's a lot of work and mm-hmm. But geography's cool. I like Bible geography. Ever since I went to Israel in 2019. How different reading the Bible is when you've been to those places. Have you been to Israel? I haven't. No, I haven't. Yeah. If you're into geography, you would really love going to Israel for obvious reasons, of course, but geography, it just makes the Bible come alive when you've been to the place where Jesus put legion into the herd of pigs and over the cliff. Sure. And I've been to that cliff, and so you can see it now in your head. It's awesome. Or you've been on the Sea of [00:09:00] Galilee and you can actually imagine Jesus walking on the water and because been in the boat. So, yeah, I'm just getting into being interested in geography right now. There you go. Yeah. Cool. What would you say is your particular specialty as far as Bible goes? Yeah. I did my master's thesis on Paul's view of spiritual formation, specifically from one Corinthians chapter three, verse three. Four, just around there. So that's a very specific kind of thing. Most of my training has actually been more on the New Testament side. Specifically Paul, I've done a lot of more academic work with the use of children as a metaphor in the Bible. I've done work with that in both Paul and the Gospels. Sexuality in the New Testament has been something I've kind of explored. [00:10:00] Nowadays though, I have more of theological interests and I'm asking some different kinds of questions. You don't divorce theology from the Bible, but they're just different kinds of questions and different kinds of, and ways and sources for that. But in terms of Bible, yeah, a lot of studying Paul and a lot of thinking about sort of how he makes arguments and specifically like in that thesis, it was all about how he used this metaphor about. Being an infant in Christ, what does all that mean? And how does that reflect how we grow as people? And so I've gone down those kind of rabbit trails a lot my my day. That's really interesting. A Paul's usually a favorite Bible character. Most people, though you can, you never go wrong with the Apostle Paul now. So today we're talking about Bible study for abuse survivors. And reason why we're doing this is because when we've gone through abuse, usually there's some spiritual [00:11:00] abuse involved and we want to distance ourself from God because we've experienced that spiritual abuse and that affects our relationship with God. And a lot of people once they leave or get out of the abuse. Then they're like, okay, I don't wanna read the Bible, I don't wanna pray, and I don't wanna go to church anymore. I don't trust anybody. But I'm trying to encourage on this podcast to come and if you have questions, let's talk about the questions. So, so I've kind of answered my own question, why should we study the Bible for ourselves? But what would you say to that or add to that? Yeah, I think what I would add to that is that, um, one thing that our teachers or pastors or scholars don't have is that they're not you. You are yourself and you come with your experiences and you come [00:12:00] with your own personality and identity, and you are gonna often pick up things that other people might miss, or you're gonna just sort of focus on things more realize as a thread of a theme or something like that. We, we shouldn't come to the Bible biased necessarily, or with too many preconceived notions. 'cause then the text starts to say what we want it to say. That's not what I'm saying. But we do bring ourselves to the text and we have to admit that like, I'm not reading this in a vacuum. I'm reading this because of who I am and what I've experienced and all these things like that. And I think that's really powerful. And I think the Bible is, it's strong enough to take it. Like it's not about pulling whatever meaning you want from it, like I said, but it is about seeing things that are hidden in this multi-layered onion like text here that has so much stuff in it that we can't expect. Even a really smart [00:13:00] guy to just know everything. So yeah, we gotta study the Bible for ourselves. We gotta do our own digging and our own reading. See what we can find. Yeah, I like that answer. Bringing yourself to the table that's. Different than what somebody else would bring to the table. So let's start with something everybody asks about. When it comes to Bible study, you go to the bookstore and you're trying to pick out a Bible, and there's a gazillion different Bible versions out there, and too many versions, in my opinion. Which one do I pick? Does it matter? At the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter. There are those that are better than others, and I'm the term better here. You can use that in different ways. I'm using the term better as in. More accurate to the text, although, hey, we are translating language here. [00:14:00] Translation is an art, not a science, which makes us a little uncomfortable. We can still get that meaning across. You're a, you're an artist and you're a creative. You can still communicate accurately and faithfully even through a song or something like that. And so in the same way, translation is a little bit of an art form and there are people that have to choose certain words, and I think this means that. So yeah, there are some that are more quote unquote scholarly and others that are more paraphrased, like the message, or it's something like the amplified Bible that is just trying to sort of squeeze some more possible meaning out there by becoming like glorified the Sorut. So you got some different options. Most readings are probably not gonna hurt you, at least. As long as you understand like kind of what's going on here. I know in the past the King James has had the word unicorns in it and that that threw some people off and then later we're like, actually we should have translated that. Like Gazelle was not supposed to be translated unicorn. So [00:15:00] okay, we can get some things here that might throw some people off, but as long as we kind of give some grace to the translators, something like the King James is older and we have some different data. We have some older manuscripts that we're pulling from now. So yeah, it's gonna be a little bit more closer to what the originals were saying kind of thing. So yeah, there are those considerations, but I don't think you're gonna make or break your faith if you read the ESV over the NRSV or something like that. Yeah, well I came from a camp that, uh, they were very definitive in what Bible you should read and which ones you should not read and Sure. And they were very dogmatic in that I've changed my stance since then. Because I've actually dug into that sort of thing that okay, you, so you're saying that most of the mainline translations out there, we will still get the main [00:16:00] point of what Bio was trying to say. Right. Yeah, I don't know any that are too left field and crazy or something like that. There are versions, like, I could be wrong about this, but I think the Jehovah's Witness has versions of the Bible that seem to play a little fast and loose with some things and have cut out some different stuff. So obviously I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for Christians. The only other thing I would say is make sure a bunch of different people were involved. Most translations are. Large groups of people. And then you have things like I mentioned the message that Eugene Peterson did, it was just him, but he wasn't necessarily trying to make a definitive thing. That's more of a paraphrase translation, which is like a devotional rather than something to study. So there are just different uses for all these different things. There are, I could go into the weeds. My dad used to own a Christian bookstore. Oh. And so you have your thought for thought translations and then you have your word for word. And [00:17:00] some people think word for word is better because it's more accurate. But the thing, the problem is the Bible might literally say X, but when we translate that word to today, it makes no sense because language is weird like that. And then so the thought for thought is going to be more of an interpretation, but they're trying to say, okay, but what this is trying to say is this and, and here's a thought that you can digest and that makes sense to you. So it's just kind of what you want, but thanks to the internet. In fact, on another screen here, I have pulled up Bible gateway.com. That's what I use a lot. You can look through all sorts of different translations and compare and contrast. If I really wanted to study with more than one, it's legal in most states, so go for it. It's funny you mentioned the message because that was my first Bible when I got saved. My okay friend that I met in high school, I told her I had gotten saved and I didn't have a Bible, and she gave me the message, which [00:18:00] was her Bible, and I loved it. Oh yeah. I highlighted that thing and Oh yeah. And I just tore it up with underlining and I couldn't wait to read it. And then of course you get to Bible college and they tear it out of your hands, so yeah. But yeah, I like the ESV today. I have. A really nice archeology study Bible I bought and I've, I've read the King James most of my Christian life. And switching to another translation was really eye-opening. All this different stuff that I hadn't seen before just popped out, like I didn't know the Bible said that. Wow. It's pretty neat. So along the same lines, do we have to be a Greek and Hebrew scholar to understand the Bible? I hope not because I struggled through Greek and barely made that alive, and so languages are not my strong [00:19:00] suit. Uh, but I think the answer is of course, no. You don't have to be. It depends on what kind of study you're doing, and I probably should have mentioned that earlier, but there's a way to look at the Bible in an academic, scholarly way, and there are some Christians that. Think that's wrong or bad? I don't think it's bad. It's just one way to look at it. When I am in scholarship, when I'm writing this college paper, I am, I have to kind of slice and dice it and I'm doing a work that an atheist could do. It's that kind of work. But then there's another way to look at the Bible that is much more pastorally or for spiritual formation, the kind of thing that treats the text as sacred that an atheist can't do. So if you're doing the academic work, it really helps to know the words because you're trying to get as precise as possible and getting into there. But luckily for us, other people have done the work for us and we have these English translations, so woo. You don't need to know Hebrew and Coin a Greek and [00:20:00] a little bit of Aramic and like Daniel or whatever. Like we don't have to know that because somebody else has done the work for us. And I mentioned already like. There's a lot of people involved in a Bible translation, not just one guy. It's, a lot of people have done this work and they've argued and yelled at each other and come to some conclusions to say, this is the best we can do right now. This is what we got. So, yeah, we don't have to, we don't have to be language PS so, woo. Lucky. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm a language geek. I love languages. Personally, I speak two languages besides English, but I haven't taken any Greek or, or Hebrew, maybe someday, but they didn't cover that in my Bible college. But it's good that we already have the tools online that, hey, this is a translation for that word in. There's really no, no real argument about it is there along mainline denominations. Yeah. Most people probably aren't gonna tell you. You have to know all those languages unless somebody there. There are groups of people that would say [00:21:00] the only inspired text of the Bible is the actual original Greek and Hebrew. And so our English translations are not inspired. But that's a minority view. That's not super common. Yeah. Yeah. The most people can understand. The inspiration still comes through, even when it's translating different languages. The word of gods for the whole world, not just those that can speak actually dead languages that nobody speaks today like Latin. Yeah. So now we're gonna get into the nitty gritty here. Okay. When we are sitting down with our Bible and we're deciding to. Study a passage of scripture or maybe a book. What are some basic rules of interpretation? Now we use the fancy big word hermeneutics, but like the basic ones that you really shouldn't ignore in order to. Do a proper Bible study. This is one that gets definitely drilled [00:22:00] into in Bible school and in other contexts, but it's that actual, it's a word context like context is key. Context is king, and one of the best things we can do is zoom out. So if we're looking at a particular scripture. Like one verse, we zoom out to the chapter. Those headings or whatever aren't like God inspired or whatever, but they're helpful to kind of see what the flow of things are. Then we can zoom out to the book level and sometimes zoom out to the biblical level and things like that. But that is always key. Sometimes we get into trouble thinking that the Bible is just like, the whole thing is like Proverbs, where everything's just disconnected and you got these good one-liners and they're fun and they're good zingers, but most of it is some kind of story or, and Paul, I mentioned that being some of my background, Paul's letters are arguments they build on top of each other, and so you can see if we're trying to look at something wild like. One [00:23:00] Corinthians 14 or something, we can understand it because by just kind of going a little backwards and Oh, okay. So that's always really important. And a lot of times authors in the Bible will also tell us kind of their themes and tell us what they really want us to get across. The gospel of John, for instance, is written so that we may believe Luke talks about writing in a, an orderly account of things. So we have some of these statements that if we zoom out a little bit, oh, okay, we can make sense of this in light of that. And so different things like that. But we could go all day into the hermeneutics and then the other fancy word, X of Jesus and that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, a tool anybody can use is something I learned in elementary school when there was a hard word. It was called rat read around the text. Read around the text. Ooh, that's the acronym there. And that just helps us understand, wait, what is going on? What does Paul mean when he says this? Why is [00:24:00] this guy saying this in judges? Let's take a look. What else is going on here? So it's just a great tool that anybody can use be if they can just zoom out a little bit and read the rest of the Bible and the rest of the passage. Everybody gives a different answer to that question. Now, obviously when we read the Bible, we come upon these passages or some of the stories that are either difficult to understand or it's a topic that we don't wanna deal with. It's really hard to swallow. Like a lot of times it's the genocide passages, of course. Mm-hmm. And or similar things like that. What do we do when we encounter those passages? Yeah. There are also passages that are sometimes called, and the genocide fits into this, but passages called texts of terror. A lot of passages about different abuse situation, and [00:25:00] I won't go into all of those, but I'm sure a lot of us can come up with some things that mm-hmm. Can be triggering in the Bible that seem just really messed up and stuff like that. So I think what's important, first of all is we recognize the, the gut feeling, the awkwardness talk to the beginning about how I see humor in the Bible and I do, I think there are some things in the Bible that we should laugh at. It's actually hilarious. Tell us about what Jonah gets swallowed by a big fish. That's funny. You should be laughing. And it's hilarious that he wants this city destroyed and he's supposed to be a prophet of God and he's not doing his job description and stuff like that. So like. When it's funny, we should laugh and when it's not funny, when it's uncomfortable, we should be okay being uncomfortable. I, I remember when I did college ministry for a time, we talked about the story of, oh man, I can't remember if it's Eli, I think it's Elijah. [00:26:00] And when they make fun of him for being bald and he calls these, she bears to attack these 40 youths, and he, this kid would kid could not get over it. He's like, why is this in the Bible? This is ridiculous. And I just tried to help him. Yeah, let's feel that first. Let's feel that, oh boy, we got some emotions here. So step one, I think it's totally okay to feel those things and then we can do some digging. Again, it's that zooming out. Let's look at the context here. Let's look what's going on there. A lot of times I think some of these texts of terror or uncomfortable texts, um. Sometimes they're not as bad when we look at it through maybe a historical lens or something, but sometimes we can't just justify them really nice and neatly, like some of the stuff about genocide. So ultimately, I have to go back to Jesus because. Jesus is the ultimate expression of God. It is the best [00:27:00] lens into the divine that we've ever seen. It's through this person of Jesus. And so sometimes we got to use our Jesus magnifying glass and look over the scripture and say, that's awkward. I don't like that very much. This makes me, this triggers me. This is, uh, but we put Jesus over and say, but through Christ, we don't have to live like that. We can recognize that there. There are plenty of examples of what not to do in the Bible. Jesus calls us to a different way and Jesus shows us that some things that maybe people thought were really godly and divine at certain points were not. So at the end of the day when things make us uncomfortable, I say feel it. But then ultimately, let's just go back. What does Jesus say? And if Jesus words are kind of. Don't seem to jive with this other crazy stuff going on here. Let's just, let's follow Jesus over some of this, [00:28:00] this other uncomfortable things. Hmm. So it's probably not a satisfying answer, but that's kind of like the point, like we try too hard sometimes to wrap everything in a pretty bow, but sometimes we just can't. With the Bible, the Bible is complicated and that's what makes it powerful. It's not always so neat and tidy and doesn't always make you feel good. It is a like Christ. It is both human, fully human and fully divine. And in that there's some awkward tension. There are some, there are human emotions and human things that that bleed through the divine pages of scripture. I appreciate the honest answer and yeah, I think that was a great answer. It was just reading through the patriarchs and wow, you just wrap your head around how much they messed up. And that's not how God wanted us to live. That's just an example of God just lets [00:29:00] everybody see how these people messed up. But still, God used them in a mighty way. God still gave them grace and forgiveness and love and mercy. I was just on Twitter and that's a dangerous place is Christian Twitter. Oh my goodness. And there was a big thread about some people, they didn't believe that Jesus was the same God as the God of the Old Testament. They cut the line because they thought Jesus over here in the New Testament, his attribute seems so different than. The God of the Old Testament. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that was an interesting concept. That's how they dealt with those horrible stories. I'm just gonna just trust in Jesus and just believe in Jesus and throw everything else away. Yeah. That's a heresy in the second century that, um, yeah. You know, unfortunately haven't quite gotten rid of completely, but is that's what that's called still alive and, [00:30:00] yeah. Oh, that's what you call it. Okay. There's your little fun little historical theology trivia, but yeah, there's probably a word for it. But that goes into my next question is how do you study the Bible and read it and make sure that you're not slipping into some heretical teaching, because I personally know some people that they believe some stuff that's way off base that nobody else. And mainline Christianity believes in, but they're like quoting Bible verses and taking them outta context. How do we avoid going down that path? Yeah, yeah. I had a youth minister who used to joke that if you wanted to, he could justify kicking babies across the room from scripture. Like that was just his wild example because yeah, people can kind of justify the whole gambit of things. So I think now we talked about why it's important to study the Bible for yourself. [00:31:00] At the same time though, I think this living, breathing scripture. Is something that we must read through community. You can do your own work, do your own prep, but ultimately the Bible belongs to all of us. And so we need to read in community. And that can mean your pastors and teachers and your scholars. It can also mean your neighbor and your friend and your kids and your mom and your cousin from a couple states away. But it can also mean dead people, not like seance or whatever, but like, um-ing, you know, read these old preachers and read the church fathers and the church mothers and like, we got 2000 years of Christian history here. There's some wild stuff, but there's some good stuff too. So I say we read scripture in community and you come to your own conclusions. Don't just copy paste whatever Mr. X, Y, Z says, but. What do they [00:32:00] think? And when we start looking at, oh, Christians have kind of seemed to think this for a long time, probably a direction we should lean in. I don't know. I guess people could be wrong, but the way the spirit works I think is a lot of times through community. And it's a way to check, it's a checks and balance for ourselves. So I think that sometimes we can get a little, a little wild with our own interpretations, but we bring in other people. What do you think? Did you see this too? Is this accurate? Is this, does this fit in with historical context of first century Palestine? Or whatever kind of questions you want to ask community. So that's flesh and blood people, but that's also books and podcasts and all sorts of things. I just think we're made to be together. And honestly, when I studied Paul's view of spiritual formation for my thesis, I didn't get to dive into it too much, but what I kept coming across is spiritual formation is not a. You on your own [00:33:00] kind of thing. It is something that happens with people who are this great cloud of witnesses that is cheering you on and it's helping you out. So I think that's a great way to kind of check, check ourselves, and then of course, use your brain. Let's be logical here that scripture probably not actually talking about America because it was written 3000 years ago. I don't know. Thank you. Um, so, so stuff like that, we gotta use our brains. Yeah. I like when you talk about community, because I think, and I've seen this before people go off the rails, is that they're isolating themselves. Mm-hmm. They don't wanna go to church because they don't trust, they don't trust people that they've been hurt. But even if we can't drag ourselves to church just yet in our healing process, yeah. There are other ways to create community and checks and balances. So that's a really good point. We really don't want [00:34:00] to be that guy that started his own denomination on a couple bible verses. Yeah, we got plenty of denominations. I think we're set for a little bit, so let's just chill out for now. Yeah, that's crazy. So like if we're in a community, we're under our Bible teacher or a pastor or Sunday school class, what would be like a red flag that would put your antennas up? Hey, you may wanna check this out for this preacher teacher saying is not a good thing. Are there any like red flags that you would look for? I think arrogance is definitely a big red flag. Ooh, good one. And that is how you get into spiritual, spiritually abusive situations. Definitely. And what I mean by arrogance is people that are not willing to be corrected, not willing to admit the wrong, not willing to learn. I was privileged to have professors where I was getting my Bible degrees. People with [00:35:00] PhDs from the prestigious British universities who would listen to student comments and be like, that's really interesting. Or, heard it like that. Tell me more about that. And one of my Hebrew Bible professors spoke like nine languages. Most of those are dead ones. And still he's curious to know what these 20-year-old college students are thinking. Which is wild because he is way smarter than us. But he is. These guys were adopting this posture of, I can learn from anybody here. I want your perspective. And I could be wrong. We gotta have some things where we have a firm foundation and where we don't sway. We absolutely have to have those. There are some people these days that I think sort of lean too heavily into the wishy-washy. It depends on the day, what I'm feeling, cafeteria style Christianity. We can't do that. But we also can't go over here where it's, I figured it out when I was 30 years old, when I was 40 years old, and now I'm like, [00:36:00] done. I'm done learning. Got it right. I to be the only one to get it right. And that's how denominations start, right? Ooh, everybody else got it wrong all the time. Now I'm right. So that's dangerous. So let's learn from people who are themselves. Learners who are willing to be challenged and to ask questions and wanna know your take on things. I know from being in ministry settings that oftentimes I am the guy with the more Bible degrees than most people in the room. But then there'll be these 70-year-old church ladies who have lived this and they've been in the Bible their whole life. I can learn from them. Mm-hmm. They have something to say, even though they've never read the text in Greek. They have something to add to the conversation. Mm-hmm. So we need to be learners. I love that. That is so awesome and so very true. The Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually and gives us different [00:37:00] lessons and we can share those lessons. Now, you as a scholarly person, you must have some favorite resources that you use to study the bible. Can you recommend some specific resources that are maybe easy to use? Yeah, there's a couple websites, Bible gateway, I mentioned that already. They have. Some free commentaries and bible encyclopedias and things kind of on the sidebar there. So as you're looking to scripture, you could glorify and study Bible or have access to chunks from different commentaries. And for a while, while I was doing some more preaching, I actually did the paid, there's a kind of a paid version that it was like five bucks a month or something really cheap like that. It just got access to more things so I can have the scripture here and then all my resources next to it. And that was handy. Bible hub.com is also another one. [00:38:00] Um, that one's especially good if you do wanna look at the language stuff, knowing that you're not a scholar, you can say, but what is that Greek word? And you can click on it and it will show you the definitions, show you other places in scripture it's used. You can kind of get a feel for that. So that's a really good one for people who are not, who don't know the languages or. Like me who always needed help with my Greek homework or something like that. So yeah, those come to mind. But man, like we are, we at our fingertips. There's a lot of good stuff out there. A lot of bad stuff, no doubt. But there are podcasts and all sorts of books and there's just, there's a lot of good stuff there. Wouldn't even know where to begin, just sort of thinking broadly. But I think Bible gateway, Bible hub, easy. Anybody can access those for free. And you don't necessarily need a giant library or really expensive commentary sets 'cause they're really expensive. Yeah. That's why my parents get me one commentary for my birthday and [00:39:00] for Christmas each year. And so in 50 years I'll have the full set or whatever. That's not true. That's, it'll actually probably be. I can't do the math however it takes to get 66 books. But anyway. Wow. All I had in bible college that we were allowed to have is Matthew Henry commentary, which is kind of on the dry side. Yeah. Most Bible professors would pass out hearing you say that. It's not bad stuff, but bad, but it's not, it's not easy to read it's thing, let's just say. Yeah. And we were allowed to read Weirs, BE'S books. It's a pretty good series about where I came from. John MacArthur's commentaries were like hearsay. Oh, okay. The Baptist didn't like the, at least the churches that I was in, they didn't like MacArthur's stuff, but, and I had the actual strong concordance. I still own that's, yeah, sure. So sort of a free way to get that, besides if you don't want to get a giant [00:40:00] volume. Yeah. I like to read the physical books too. Sure. Nothing, not knocking the physical. But yeah, if people are on a budget, yeah, people are on a budget and you can't go and buy those big, huge coffee table books. Or if you're near a Christian university, see if you can get a library card that's, they have tons of stuff. I can walk in there and there are a whole shelf of like Genesis commentaries or whatever. It could be information overload. But also I can, I'll pick up a couple different volumes of different perspectives and I'll read what they each have to say about the verse or chapter I'm dealing with and I can kind of synthesize a conclusion. And that's how you do it. Yeah. I'll also mention, I, we were allowed to. Listen on the radio, Jay Vernon McGee and yeah, he was definitely expository. He [00:41:00] would go verse by verse and go through the entire Bible verse by verse, which I thought was really good. And I don't agree with everything he said, but that's the way I learned a lot of stuff was through verse by verse radio program back in the day. Mm. I'm dating myself, aren't I? It's all good here. All good. No, we talked a lot about a bunch of different stuff. Is there anything about Bible study that we didn't talk about that you would like to mention? I know there's so much, uh, yeah, I just touched on it a little bit, but I kind of wanna bring it back. Look at different views than yours. If you are really charismatic, then look at something that's not quite charismatic, or if you are. I won't go. I'll skip all those differences. You know what? You are read some of the stuff that's a little different. Stuff that challenges you. That's how we grow. That's how we grow, [00:42:00] is to hear something a little different. And the thing is, you're not required to believe it. Right. You can just read it and at least know what they're saying. I know in my Christian upbringing, and not necessarily I was intentional, but I only knew my side of the argument. Or if I knew somebody else's argument, it was this straw man version that was just not accurate. And then I, you go to the big wide world and be like, oh wait, there are lots of different views. And those people are actually smart and they have things to say about this, but somebody else is the opposite and they're also a smart person. What's going on? It's just good to expose ourselves to different things. In most cases we could, we, you can choose your own boundaries and things like that. Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean if you're studying something in the Old Testament, you have to read the Jewish and the Muslim and the Mormon view of what. It doesn't mean you have to go there, but just check out some different things. Have your favorite commentaries. Do it, but every once in a while [00:43:00] peek into your, your local heretic and see what they have to say. I dunno, maybe not a heretic, somebody who's a little different. You, you, your istic. Yeah. Our last guest was talking about Calvinism and stuff, but yeah, doesn, excellent suggestion because I definitely was in my own camp for many years until I got out of my abusive situation and started looking into other views and I have since changed nothing major. I didn't change any major views, but I realized that okay, there are other Godly people. Now I see they can use scripture to defend their position too. And there's a little bit of wiggle room in there for sure. Sure. For different viewpoints. I went and did a study and looked at somebody else's view on a tertiary argument. Sure. Tertiary doctrine. It's not a doctrine of the faith, but [00:44:00] something that's very important and it's like, okay, I'm not gonna be judgmental. And that was hard for me to change my viewpoint. Yeah, yeah. But they gave me really great scriptural evidence. So yeah, that's kind of a sideline, but you made excellent point. But anyway, I appreciate you sharing all this valuable information and your view, viewpoint, and it's fascinating. Everybody has different answers for these questions. I've asked everybody the same questions. Right. And they're all giving me different answers, which I think that's very helpful. Oh yeah. Yeah. Very helpful. Yeah, getting people exposed to different things and again, like I am me and you are you, and we're different. And that's the point. Like we all come together with our different focuses and our different backgrounds and knowledge, and together we are the body of Christ. Amen. And that's beautiful. So tell the folks [00:45:00] how people can connect with you and you have resources and maybe if they wanna play stump the Bible teacher, they can email you. Yeah, you can find that all about me@jakedobern.com. D-O-B-E-R-E-N-Z as in zebra. And that's kind of my home base on the interwebs. If you do jake dovers.com/email, you can get on my email list that was mentioned earlier where I talk about. Funny stories from my life that have spiritual points, and I bring out spiritual points from that. And yeah, you can definitely contact me through social media or email, and that's all on my website there. So I'll let you track me down and tell me how wrong I am and all of that kind of stuff. That's fun. It comes with the territory, so totally okay with that. And then lastly, I do a bunch of work with Christian creatives, with Fiani [00:46:00] Media, and as was mentioned, I produce the Creatively Christian podcast. So I would love for you to check that out if that's kind of your thing, if that's your area. Yeah. You guys have a real great variety of guests on that show. It's not just one particular kind of art. You guys represent a lot of different ones, which is fun. Oh yeah. And we're trying to get more variety all the time. Awesome. Now. I don't usually have guests pray on the show, but would you pray for our listeners in their journey in the scriptures? Of course. Let's go ahead and pray. Heavenly God, we come to you in prayer on this podcast episode and we ask that whoever's listening now in the future, in a couple years, where wherever we are, that, that we can be receptive to how you speak to us through scripture and through our [00:47:00] communities that help us see scripture. Let the spirit guide us as we dive into this sacred but sometimes confusing and complicated documents. Lord, I ask that you give us the wisdom to be able to rightly divide your word and to remain faithful even when our own preferences might wanna lean in a different direction. Lord, thank you so much for the ministry of this podcast. We pray that people continue to have healing and continue to find themselves in a better place, both in the world and with you spiritually. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. God bless you. Sure thing. God bless you. Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful [00:48:00] to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.

When I was a kid, I was taught not to cuss. It was a tricky feat for someone given to frustration and anger, and so I found a loophole by saying, “I don't mean to cuss, but . . .” and then saying whatever had come to mind. I've been wondering recently how many times I, inadvertently, cuss, or curse, from the pulpit. I don't mean in the style of Die Hard's John McLain. I'm thinking of a more insidious, and unhelpful, accidental cursing. That's what I want to explore and I'm grateful that you trust me enough to tag along. If you can, please rate, review, and refer Greatheart's Table and subscribe to the print version at Substack.com. Now, about that cursing . . . . We encourage you to also subscribe to our newsletter where, on third Mondays and at other times there may be additional content. You can do so here. You can help support this podcast by supporting us on Patreon. You can do so here. EPISODE NOTES Notes and resources relevant to this episode: Whoever blesses his neighbor with a loud voice,rising early in the morning,will be counted as cursing. (Proverbs 27:14) Eugene Peterson, The Contemplative Pastor, (United States: Eerdmans Publishing, 1993). When you buy a book using a link on this page, Greatheart's Table receives a commission. Thank you for supporting this work! ChargeDownload Podcast music provided by Cool Hand Luke and used with permission.Intro: “Holy Vanguard” / LyricsOutro: “Wonder Tour” / Lyrics / Video To find our more about Greatheart's Table, visit us here.

On this podcast, I am committed to helping listeners (and myself) understand beauty in its truest, most life-giving sense. And that is why I am so excited to start the new year with David Taylor as today's guest.David Taylor is a theologian, author, speaker, priest, and director of initiatives in art and faith. As Associate Professor of Theology & Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary, he has lectured widely on the arts, from Thailand to South Africa. He has also written for The Washington Post, Image Journal, Theology Today, Worship, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today, among others. Additionally, in 2016 he produced a short film with Bono and Eugene Peterson, entitled Bono and Eugene Peterson: THE PSALMS.In today's episode, David not only gives us a behind-the-scenes look at his class on beauty at Fuller Seminary, but also shares his own Biblically grounded understanding of what true beauty is. David also uncovers lies about beauty he sees at work in Western society, discusses how we might navigate aging in a broken world, and helps us see how we can know God in and through the arts. My hope is that this conversation will leave you feeling deeply encouraged, as you are reminded that true beauty is alive and at work in the world.David's latest book: Naming the Spirit: Pneumatology Through the Arts Buy Melissa L. Johnson's book, Soul-Deep Beauty: Fighting for Our True Worth in a World Demanding Flawless, here. Learn more about Impossible Beauty and join the community here.

Elizabeth Kübler-Ross said:“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss—and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people don't just happen.”Beautiful people don't just happen. They are formed.And most of us, if we're honest, want to be that kind of people—the kind who ends well. People who go the distance. People marked by what Eugene Peterson called “a long obedience in the same direction.”I don't know anyone excited about moral failure. Or burnout. Or quietly sputtering out into cynicism or despair. And the tragic truth is this: If the ending is bad, people rarely remember the beginning. You can do years—decades of good, faithful, beautiful work. But if you never find your way out of the depths, it can all be eclipsed.So the question before us is Do you want to hear Jesus say, 'Well done”

The Thrill of Hope - Christmas EveDecember 24, 2025Teacher: Pastor Dave BrownJoy turns into rejoicing.Look, Charlie, let's face it. We all know that Christmas is a big commercial racket. — Lucy van Pelt In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to their own town to register. So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them. And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.” When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.” So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told. — Luke 2:1-20 I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. — Luke 2:10 The good news is that the one true God has now taken charge of the world…The ancient sickness that had crippled the whole world, and humans with it, has been cured at last, so that new life can rise up in its place. Life has come to life and is pouring out like a mighty river into the world, in the form of a new power, the power of love. The good news was, and is, that all this has happened in and through Jesus; that one day it will happen, completely and utterly, to all creation; and that we humans, every single one of us, whoever we are, can be caught up in that transformation here and now. — N.T. Wright Joy turns into rejoicing. The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told. — Luke 2:20 Feelings are great liars. If Christians worshipped only when they felt like it, there would be precious little worship. We think that if we don't feel something there can be no authenticity in doing it. But the wisdom of God says something different: that we can act ourselves into a new way of feeling much quicker than we can feel ourselves into a new way of acting. Worship is an act that develops feelings for God, not a feeling for God that is expressed in an act of worship. — Eugene Peterson

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Ronnie Martin, pastor and Director of Leader Care and Renewal for the Harbor Network, to explore unhurried ministry versus anxious ministry.We dig into why so many ministry leaders find themselves overextended and running ragged. Ronnie shares insights from his book "The Unhurried Pastor," co-authored with Brian Croft, which draws on Eugene Peterson's work to address the burnout epidemic in ministry today.We discuss the "superhero pastor" mentality and how pastors can actually become addicted to being everything to everybody, even while intellectually knowing it leads to burnout.We explore the unique pressures pastors face—the flexibility of their schedules, the invisible nature of much of their work, and the constant pressure to prove their worth to their congregations.We also tackle the tension of feeling like we're never doing enough while simultaneously doing too much, and how the question "what are you spending your time doing?" can feel like a shame-throwing question. Ronnie offers practical wisdom on discernment, the importance of the "holy pause" before saying yes to every request, and how to avoid unhealthy stacking of commitments.This conversation offers valuable insights for anyone in ministry—or really anyone feeling overwhelmed—about finding sustainable rhythms, practicing humility, and learning to distinguish between a full calendar and one that's suffocating us.

The Thrill of Hope - Week 3December 14, 2025Teacher: Pastor Dave BrownJoyAnd there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.—Luke 2:8-1What's the difference between happiness and joy?Happiness is an emotional response to our external circumstances. Joy is a deeper reality that flows from the core of our being.I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.— John 15:11Joy cannot by bought, nor can we just flip a switch will ourselves to be joyous. Joy must be cultivated.Joy is not a requirement of Christian discipleship; it is a consequence.  It is not what we have to acquire in order to experience life in Christ; it is what comes to us when we are walking in the way of faith and obedience.— Eugene Peterson

Hosts Steve and Lisa Cuss share five practical tips for maintaining emotional and mental well-being during the Christmas season. They discuss handling family tensions, grief, and the pressures of holiday preparations, emphasizing self-awareness, emotional preparation, and setting boundaries. Blending personal stories and spiritual reflections, they encourage listeners to notice their emotional states, manage reactions, and make space for both joy and sadness. The episode offers compassionate, human-sized advice to help listeners create a peaceful, connected, and meaningful holiday experience, even amid challenges.  Episode Resources: Secure your copy of The Five Steps to Christmas Sanity PDF Listen: Anxiety, the Nervous System, and Your Window of Tolerance: Lisa Cuss & Clarissa Moll John Chapter 1 (ESV)  Revelation 21:3-4 (Eugene Peterson's The Message) AA Meeting Guidelines Sign up for Steve's Newsletter & Podcast Reminders: Capable Life Newsletter New Candles, Advent Prayers, and Journals: https://www.stevecusswords.com/ Join Steve at an upcoming intensive:  Capable Life Intensives Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In our December 7 Sunday Gathering, we kick off our 2025 Advent series by talking about the prophets and their long wait for Jesus. Discussion Questions When you think about Christmas, do you feel more wonder or more boredom and cynicism? Why do you think that is? What parts of the Christmas story have become “too familiar” for you? Where do you feel numb? The sermon talks about needing “fresh eyes to see the old again.” What helps you rediscover wonder in your spiritual life? What kills it? Dallas Willard said, “What you get out of your spiritual life is determined by what you are waiting for.” What are you really waiting for these days? Is Jesus actually on that list? What do you find hardest about waiting—in life or in faith? How do you normally respond when God feels slow or silent? N.T. Wright said Advent teaches us to “live in the present with the faith that God's new world is on the way.” What would it look like for you to “live in the present” while still holding deep hope for Jesus' return? Simeon waited his whole life for something he never saw until old age. What does his patience reveal about what it means to trust God? Eugene Peterson wrote, “Advent is not a time to pretend things are better than they are.” What darkness do you need to name this Advent—honestly, without pretending? What is one concrete way you can “slow down enough to hear the Spirit” this week? Is there someone in your life who embodies hopeful waiting—like a Simeon?

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Who knows a rested woman? We all know women who are stressed out, burned out, exhausted, successful, anxious, depressed—but truly rested? This question from "The Relaxed Woman" stopped me in my tracks and led to one of the most important decisions I've made in years. In this deeply personal episode—number 77, a number that speaks of completion and perfect forgiveness—I'm sharing why I'm pausing the podcast for this season. But this isn't just my story. It's an invitation for every woman who's been giving her best to everyone else and her exhaustion to her family. We'll explore: The biblical significance of 77 and what completion really means Why pruning isn't punishment—it's preparation for new growth How hurry and love simply cannot coexist The revolutionary power of celebrating each other's brave NO's The parable of the fake pearls and what God might be asking you to release Featuring wisdom from Dallas Willard, John Mark Comer, Ruth Haley Barton, Emily P. Freeman, and Eugene Peterson's beautiful translation of Jesus' invitation to "live freely and lightly." This episode is for every woman stepping into November wondering how she'll survive another holiday season. It's permission to open your hands. It's an invitation to trust that God holds all things together—not you. What fake pearls are you clutching? What if your Father has real ones waiting? Episode Note: This is the final episode for this season as I step into Spiritual Direction training and explore finishing my degree at Mississippi State after 27 years. Thank you for 77 beautiful conversations. See you in the next season.

Spiritual Formation takes two forms -- intentional and unintentional. In this episode we examine the realities of each and chart a path to follow the call of God to "be transformed."

What if the biggest changes in your life aren't sudden at all—but have been building quietly for years? Watch the full conversation on YouTube In this episode, Russell Moore sits down with pastor and author Mark Batterson (National Community Church, Washington, D.C.; The Circle Maker, Gradually, Then Suddenly) to talk about how transformation, calling, and even faith itself often arrive–as Hemingway once put it–gradually, then suddenly. From hard decisions and hidden preparation to the slow work of God that looks instant only in hindsight, they explore why patience may be the most underrated spiritual discipline of all. Batterson and RDM talk about the writings of Eugene Peterson on the “long obedience” of a faith journey, the difference between patience and stagnation, how to know when you're called to something and when you're released from it, and why celebrity culture in the church short-circuits character formation. They get practical on habits (why 30 days feels like the hardest part), preaching long obedience in a city addicted to immediacy, learning grit without “snowplow” spirituality, and aiming at legacy that's measured by who others become because of you.  If you're looking for wisdom without hurry, conviction without hype, and hope that can take a punch and keep walking, this is the episode for you. Resources mentioned in this episode: Mark Batterson, Gradually, Then Suddenly  Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises Eugene Peterson, A Long Obedience in the Same Direction  Keep up with Russell: Sign up for the weekly newsletter where Russell shares thoughtful takes on big questions, offers a Christian perspective on life, and recommends books and music he's enjoying. Submit a question for the show at questions@russellmoore.com Subscribe to the Christianity Today Magazine: Special offer for listeners of The Russell Moore Show: Click here for 25% off a subscription. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

What is the book of Revelation really about? For ages, it has been the source of sensationalism, idolatry, confusion, and end-times predictions. But at its root, it is about the power and worship of the Lamb who was slain. Biblical scholar Michael J. Gorman joins Mark Labberton to explore how Christians can read the book of Revelation with wisdom, faith, and hope rather than fear or sensationalism. Drawing from his book Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation, Gorman offers a reorientation to Revelation's central vision: worshipping the Lamb, resisting idolatrous power, and embodying faithful discipleship in the world. Together they discuss Revelation's misuses in popular culture, its critique of empire and nationalism, and its invitation to follow the crucified and risen Christ into the new creation. Episode Highlights "The book of Revelation is about lamb power—not hyper-religious or political power. It's about absorbing rather than inflicting evil." "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the book of Revelation." "We shouldn't look for predictions but for parallels and analogies." "Worship, discipleship, and new creation—that's where Revelation hangs its hat." "At its root, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry." "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Helpful Links and Resources Reading Revelation Responsibly – https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Revelation-Responsibly-Following-Creation/dp/1606085603/ Reverse Thunder by Eugene Peterson – https://www.amazon.com/Reversed-Thunder-Revelation-Praying-Imagination/dp/0060665033 St. Mary's Seminary & University, Baltimore – https://www.stmarys.edu About Michael J. Gorman Michael J. Gorman is the Raymond E. Brown Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology at St. Mary's Seminary & University in Baltimore, Maryland. A leading New Testament scholar, he is the author of numerous books on Pauline theology and Revelation, including Reading Revelation Responsibly, Cruciformity, and Participating in Christ. Gorman's teaching and writing emphasize Scripture as a call to cruciform discipleship, faithful worship, and the hope of new creation. Show Notes Introducing Reading Revelation Responsibly "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the Book of Revelation." "Apocalypse" means revelation, not destruction. Emerging from twenty-five years of study and teaching, aimed at rescuing Revelation from misinterpretation or neglect Growing up amid 1970s end-times obsession—Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and fearful youth-group predictions of the world's end Fear of the book of Revelation until he studied it with Bruce Metzger at Princeton Seminary Why he wrote the book: for people who have been scared or confused by Revelation's misuse Interpretation and misreading the book of Revelation Early questions: Does Revelation predict particular events or people? No predictions, but symbolic speaking into every age "Our task is not to find predictions but to discern parallels and analogies." Warning against mapping Revelation onto modern crises or personalities "When those predictions fail, the book gets sidelined or scoffed at." Keep one foot in the first-century context and one in the present Worship and discipleship The heart of Revelation is worship. "This is a book about worship—and about the object of our worship." Explaining the subtitle: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation "Uncivil worship" contrasts with "civil religion"—worship that refuses to idolize political power Influence from Eugene Peterson's Reverse Thunder and his own teaching at St. Mary's, where Peterson once taught Revelation Worship leads to discipleship: "Those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes." True discipleship mirrors the Lamb's humility and non-violence. The lamb and the meaning of power Interpreting Revelation's vision of the slain and standing Lamb as the key to understanding divine power "The crucified Messiah is the risen Lord—but he remains the crucified one." The Lamb appears twenty-eight times, a symbol of universality and completeness. "Revelation is about lamb power—absorbing rather than inflicting evil." Discipleship is cruciform: following the Lamb's way of self-giving love. The unholy trinity and the danger of idolatry Chapters 12–13 depict the dragon and two beasts—the "unholy trinity" of satanic, imperial, and religious power. "Power gone amok": political, military, and spiritual domination that mimic divinity How true worship resists empire and exposes idolatry Warning against reading these beasts as predictions of the UN or the pope; rather, they reveal recurring alliances of religion and politics "At its root, Christian nationalism is idolatry." When political identity eclipses discipleship, "political power always wins, and faith loses." Faith, politics, and worship today Christian nationalism as a modern form of "civil religion," conflating patriotism with divine will "It's only Christian in name—it lacks Christian substance." Idolatry is not limited to one side: "It permeates the left, the right, and probably the centre." Labberton agrees: false worship is endemic wherever self-interest and fear shape our loves. Both stress that Revelation calls the church to worship the Lamb, not the state. "Revelation critiques all human systems of false worship." Revelation's goal: Not destruction, but new creation "Destruction is penultimate—cleansing the way for renewal." Believers already live as citizens of that new creation. "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Communal, not merely individual, discipleship: "Revelation is written to churches, not just believers." Reinterpreting Revelation 3:20: Jesus knocking isn't an altar call to unbelievers but Christ seeking re-entry into his own church. "Jesus always wants to come back in." Living revelation today Spirituality of hope, not fear or withdrawal "Reading Revelation responsibly means engaging the world through worship and witness." How true worship is dangerous because it transforms our allegiance. "Following the Lamb into the new creation is the church's act of resistance." Conclusion: "Worthy is the Lamb." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.  

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Ever wonder why the Bible ends with dragons, cosmic battles, and a woman giving birth in space? Turns out, Revelation 12 isn't trying to predict the future or scare you—it's doing something far more interesting. This passage takes everything the Bible has been saying about good, evil, death, and resurrection and cranks it up to high definition. Drawing on Eugene Peterson's insight that Revelation is meant to "revive our imagination" rather than give us new information, this sermon explores how ancient apocalyptic imagery speaks directly to our current moment of chaos and uncertainty. Whether you're familiar with the book of Revelation or have always found it confusing, you'll walk away with a fresh perspective on why these strange, vivid stories might be exactly what we need right now.

October 19, 2025 "Living together in a way that evokes the glad song of Psalm 133 is one of the great and arduous tasks before Christ's people. Nothing requires more attention and energy. It is easier to do almost anything else" -Eugene Peterson

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Reconstructing Scripture: From Solo to Symphony While many of the ideas and practices handed down to us about God and the church may have shifted, there is something about Jesus we still find compellingly beautiful. Often, after letting go of what wasn't working, we struggle to find a way forward that shapes our lives to mirror the Beloved Community of God.  Our Fall Vision series, Reconstructing Rhythms, continues with Christopher Mack gathering us to for the practice of Lectio divina as a way of stepping into God's Story, even as we find it infusing in our being. [Mark 12:28-34] Reflection  How does the relational nature of this scripture conversation between Jesus and the scribe impact how you might reflect on scripture? Where do you experience the disconnect in your life from hearing scripture and embodying it? How might our experience of scripture be different if we try making a meal of it (formational) instead of reading it for helpful or inspiring bits (informational)? Resource Book: Spiritual Disciplines Handbook: Practices that Transform Us by Adele Ahlberg Calhoun Book: Opening to God: Lectio Divina nad Life as Prayer by David Brenner Book: Solo: An Uncommon Devotional by Eugene Peterson, Jan Johnson, J.R. Briggs, and Katie Peckham Book: Eat This Book: A Conversation in the Art of Spiritual Reading by Eugene Peterson PDF: Vox Veniae Lectio Divina

"Our faith is not about how well we do our faith."— Scarlet HiltibidalToday's Episode: Join Natalie Abbott and Scarlet Hiltibidal as they discuss what it looks like to actually live by faith and instead of trusting in more tangible things. It's messy, and it often feels precarious, but it's so good. Scarlet talks about how she's seen God show up in the midst of cross-country moves and sad days and her mom's cancer diagnosis. She shares about the wonder of receiving instead of faking our faith or trying to earn God's favor. You won't want to miss this episode!This month's memory verse: "For we live by faith, not by sight." — 2 Corinthians 5:7Today's guest: Scarlet Hiltibidal is the author of “Afraid of All the Things,” “You're the Worst Person in the World,” “He Numbered the Pores on My Face,” and the “Anxious and Ashamed” Bible studies. She writes regularly for ParentLife Magazine, HomeLife Magazine, and She Reads Truth. Scarlet enjoys speaking to women around the country about the freedom and rest available in Jesus. She loves hanging out with her husband and four kids, eating nachos by herself, writing for her friends, and studying stand-up comedy with a passion that should be reserved for more important pursuits. Want to go even deeper in this month's verse? Study along with Natalie in the monthly Bible Study Membership. Get the first month FREE with the code: PODCAST.Love this show? Support us by leaving a review.Links from today's show: Find out all things Scarlet at ScarletHiltibidal.com. Get your copy of Scarlet's book, Hopeful-ish.Get the ESV Prayer Journals for 30% off with a free Crossway Plus account.Check out the Forever Welcomed bible study, by Oghosa Iyamu. Check out the book Scarlet recommended: A Long Obedience in the Same Direction, by Eugene Peterson.  Support the showFollow Natalie & Vera at DwellDifferently.com and @dwelldifferenly.

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Join us as Pastor Tommy continues the sermon series Here as in Heaven. Eugene Peterson described the church as a "colony of heaven in a country of death." God's desire is to bring heaven here, and this overflows into our worlds. In this message we will describe our strategy for missions based on Acts 1:8. We will emphasize the significance of Jesus' identity as King in the New Testament. We will stress that the phrase "kingdom of God" signifies God's reign and rule through Christ, encouraging repentance and belief in Jesus' message, urging us to prioritize God's kingdom in our lives. We will discuss the importance of recognizing Jesus as the Anointed One and the impact of this understanding on evangelism.References: Acts 1:8 & Matthew 28:16-20To get connected visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠...To Donate ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://midtownvineyard.churchcenter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.... Download the church center app to stay in the loop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://churchcenter.com/setup⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Discover more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com...⁠⁠⁠ us on Instagram: / midtownvineyard Find us on Facebook: / midtownvineyardmbSermon Notes: Rightnowmedia.com

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Join us as Pastor Tommy continues the sermon series Here as in Heaven. Eugene Peterson described the church as a "colony of heaven in a country of death." God's desire is to bring heaven here, and this requires practice in community. In this message we will will share about our small groups that we have here and encourage everyone to experience communities of formation.References: Acts 2:42-47To get connected visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠...To Donate ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://midtownvineyard.churchcenter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.... Download the church center app to stay in the loop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://churchcenter.com/setup⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Discover more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com...⁠⁠⁠ us on Instagram: / midtownvineyard Find us on Facebook: / midtownvineyardmbSermon Notes: Rightnowmedia.com

In this episode of the Unhurried Living Podcast, we explore the difference between work that flows from grace and love, and work that drains us because it’s fueled by fear, insecurity, or people-pleasing. Together we’ll talk about holy rhythms of work and rest, and what it looks like to return to the “easy yoke” of Jesus. If you’ve been feeling weary, overextended, or caught in workaholism, this conversation offers hope: you can lead from rest rather than rush. What You’ll Take Away from This Episode: How to discern between grace-energized work and soul-draining drivenness. Why busyness, according to Eugene Peterson, is not productivity but a form of laziness. The danger of “false vines” that drain life rather than nourish it. Small, sustainable practices for weaving sabbath and reflection into daily rhythms. How contemplative practices root us in God’s presence so our work becomes overflow, not overextension. Resources & References Mentioned in This Episode: Subversive Spirituality by Eugene Peterson New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (various translations available) The Spiritual Life by Evelyn Underhill Jesus’ teaching on the easy yoke (Matthew 11:28–30) and the vine and branches (John 15) Connect with Alan on LinkedIn or learn more about Unhurried Living programs on their website. Learn about PACE: Certificate in Leadership and Soul Care Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Reality and Faith Prompts1. What are the formations or structures for how you know you are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Internal senses? External resources? 2. Who are you in active dialogue with in regards to your faith? Who that is living and who that is passed on? 3. When you encounter dissonance with your reality of faith, how do you stay grounded in your experience?TranscriptsDanielle (00:00):To my computer. So thank you Starlet. Thank you Tamis for being with me. I've given already full introductions. I've recorded those separately. So the theme of the conversation and kind of what we're getting into on this podcast this season is I had this vision for talking about the themes have been race, faith, culture, church in the past on my podcast. But what I really think the question is, where is our reality and where are our touchpoints in those different realms? And so today there's going to be more info on this in the future, but where do we find reality and how do we form our reality when we integrate faith? So one of the questions I was asking Tamis and Starlet was what are the formations or structures for how you know are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Do you have internal senses? Do you have external resources? And so that's where I want to jump off from and it's free flow. I don't do a whole lot of editing, but yeah, just curious where your mind goes when you hear that, what comes to mind and we'll jump from there.Starlette (01:12):I immediately thought of baptism, baptismal waters. My baptismal identity forms and shapes me. It keeps me in touch with my body. It keeps me from being disembodied. Also, it keeps me from being swindled out of authority over my body due to the dangerous irrationalism of white body supremacy. So that's one thing. Protest also keeps me grounded. I have found that acts of defiance, minor personal rebellions, they do well for me. They keep me spiritually that I feel like it keeps me in step with Jesus. And I always feel like I'm catching up that I'm almost stepping on his feet. So for me, baptismal identity and protesting, those are the two things come to me immediately.Tamice (02:04):Whoa, that's so deep. Wow, I never thought about that. But I never thought about protests being a thing that groundsBecause I mean I've just been, for me I would say I've been working on the right so, and y'all know me, so I got acronyms for days. But I mean I think that the radical ethical spirituality that's tethered to my tradition, that's a rule of life, but it's also a litmus test. So for me, if you can't tell the truth, we don't have conversations about non-violence and loving enemies. I don't get to ethical spirituality unless you come through the front door of truth telling and truth telling in that sense of the r. And the rest arrest mix tape is radical. Angela Davis says radical and that's grasping stuff at the root. So before we have conversations about forgiveness for instance, or Jesus or scripture or what is right and what is moral, it's very important that we first tell the truth about the foundations of those realities and what we even mean by those terms and whose those terms serve and where they come from. I talk about it asking to see the manager. We need see the manager(03:24):Me that grounds me is now if something comes in and it calls me to move in a different way or corrects me or checks me in a certain way, I say yes to it if it comes through the door of truth telling because it means I also got to be true and tell the truth to myself. So that keeps me grounded. That kind of acronym is kind of how I move, but it's also how I keep toxic ways of doing religion out. And I also have come back into relationship with trees and grass and the waters and that's been really powerful for moving down into different types of intelligence. For me, the earth has been pulling me into a different way of knowing and being in that part brings me to ancestors. Just like you starlet my ancestors, I keep finding them in the trees and in the water and in the wind. So it's like, well I need them real bad right now. So that's where I'm kind of grounding myself these days.But to your point about grounding and protest, I feel most compelled to show up in spaces where the ground is crying out screaming. I feel like it beckons me there. And we talked about the most recent news of Trey being found and you talked about truth telling and what resonated immediately. And it didn't sit right with me that African-American people, people of African descent know not to take their lives in that way because of the traumatic history that when you say things like you don't suspect any foul play, it sounds like what has historically been named as at the hands of persons unknown where that no one is held responsible for the death of African-American people. That's what ties it in for me. And I feel like it's an ancestral pool that they didn't leave this way, they didn't leave in the way that they were supposed to, that something stinks and that they're crying out to say, can you hear me? Come over here Terry a while here. Don't leave him here. Don't let up on it because we didn't call him here somebody. So I love that you said that you are, feel yourself being grounded in and call back to the earth because I do feel like it speaks to us,But there are telltale signs in it and that the trees will tell us too. And so I didn't have a hand in this. It was forced on me and I saw it all come and talk to me. Put your hand here, put your head here and you can hear me scream and then you can hear me scream, you can hear him scream. He was calling out the whole time. That's what I believe in. That's how I test reality. I tested against what the earth is saying like you said, but I think we have to walk the ground a bit. We have to pace the ground a bit. We can't just go off of what people are saying. Back to your point about truth telling, don't trust nobody I don't trust. I don't trust anybody that's going to stop because you can't fix a lie. So if you're going to come in with deception, there's not much else I can do with you. There's not much I can say to you. And I find that white body supremacy is a supreme deception. So if we can't start there in a conversation, there's nothing that I can say to youTamice (06:46):That's facts. It's interesting that you talked about baptism, you talked about grounding and I had this story pop up and while you were talking again it popped up again. So I'm going to tell it. So we are not going to talk about who and all the things that happened recently, but I had made some comments online around that and around just the choice to be blind. So I've been talking a lot about John nine and this passage where it is very clear to everyone else what's happening, but the people who refuse to see, refuse to see.So in that, I was kind of pulled into that. I was in Mississippi, I was doing some stuff for the book and this lady, a chaplain, her name is Sally Bevin, actually Sally Bevel, she walked up to me, she kept calling me, she was like, Tam me, she want to come. I have my whole family there. We were at the Mississippi Book Fair and she kept saying, Tam me, she want to come join, dah, dah, dah. Then my family walked off and they started to peruse and then she asked me again and I was like, no, I'm good. And I was screaming. I mean I'm looking in the screen and the third time she did it, it pulled me out and I was like, this woman is trying to pull me into being present. And she said to me, this is funny, starlet. I said, I feel like I need to be washed and I need a baptism because this phone feels like so on right now and the wickedness is pulling me. So she poured, she got some ice, cold water, it was 95 degrees, poured cold water on my hands, had me wash my hands and she took the cold water. She put a cross on my forehead. And you know what she said to me? She said, remember your baptism?She said, remember your baptism? And when I was baptized, even though it was by a man who will not also be named, when I was baptized the wind, there was a whirlwind at my baptism. It was in 2004, that same wind hit in Mississippi and then I felt like I was supposed to take my shoes off. So I walked around the Mississippi Festival with no shoes on, not knowing that the earth was about to receive two people who did not deserve to be hung from trees. And there's something very, I feel real talk, I feel afraid for white supremacy right now in the name of my ancestors and I feel like I'm calling on everything right now. And that's also grounding me.Starlette (09:36):I was with Mother Moses last week. I went to Dorchester County just to be with her because the people were here. Take me. I said, I'll leave them all here. I know you said there are a few here, but give me the names, give me the last names of the people because I don't have time for this. I see why she left people. I see why she was packing. So to your point, I think it's important that we talk to the ancestors faithfully, religiously. We sit down at their feet and listen for a bit about how they got over and how they got through it and let them bear witness to us. And she does it for me every time, every single time she grounds, she grounds meDanielle (10:23):Listening to you all. I was like, oh wait. It is like Luke 19 where Jesus is coming in on the show and he didn't ride in on the fanciest plane on a donkey. And if you're familiar with that culture that is not the most elevated animal, not the elevated animal to ride, it's not the elevated animal. You don't eat it. Not saying that it isn't eaten at times, but it's not right. So he rides in on that and then people are saying glory to God in the highest and they're praising him and the Pharisees are like, don't do that because it's shameful and I don't remember the exact words, but he's basically be quiet. The rocks are going to tell the story of what happened here. He's walking his way. It kind of reminds me to me. So what you're saying, he's walking away, he's going to walk and he's going to walk that way and he's going to walk to his death. He's walking it in two scenarios that Jesus goes in to talk about. Your eyes are going to be blind to peace, to the real way to peace. It's going to be a wall put around you and you're going to miss out. People are going to destroy you because you missed your chance.Starlette (11:50):Point again creation. And if you're going to be a rock headed people, then I'll recruit this rock choir. They get ready to rock out on you. If there's nothing you're going to say. So even then he says that creation will bear witness against you. You ain't got to do it. You ain't got to do it. I can call these rock. You can be rock headed if you want to. You can be stony hearted if you want to. I can recruit choir members from the ground,Tamice (12:16):But not even that because y'all know I'm into the quantum and metaphysics. Not even that they actually do speak of course, like words are frequencies. So when you hold a certain type of element in your hand, that thing has a frequency to it. That's alright that they said whatever, I don't need it from you. Everything else is tapped into this.Starlette (12:39):Right. In fact, it's the rocks are tapped into a reality. The same reality that me and this donkey and these people throwing stuff at my feet are tapped into.You are not tapped into reality. And so that's why he makes the left and not the right because typically when a person is coming to Saka city, they head towards the temple. He went the other direction because he is like it was a big fuck. I don't use power like this. And actually what I'm about to do is raise you on power. This is a whole different type of power. And that's what I feel like our ancestors, the realities that the alternative intelligence in the world you're talking about ai, the alternative intelligence in the world is what gives me every bit of confidence to look this beast in the face and call it what it is. This isTamice (13:52):And not going to bow to it. And I will go down proclaiming it what it is. I will not call wickedness good.And Jesus said, Jesus was so when he talks about the kingdom of heaven suffering violence and the violence taken it by force, it's that it's like there's something so much more violent about being right and righteous. Y'all have to use violence because you can't tell the truth.Danielle (14:29):Do you see the split two? There's two entirely different realities happening. Two different kingdoms, two entirely different ways of living in this era and they're using quote J, but it's not the same person. It can't be, you cannot mix white Jesus and brown Jesus. They don't go together. TheyStarlette (15:00):Don't, what is it? Michael O. Emerson and Glenn e Bracy. The second they have this new book called The Religion of Whiteness, and they talk about the fact that European Americans who are racialized as white Tahi says those who believe they are white. He says that there's a group of people, the European Americans who are racialized as white, who turn to scripture to enforce their supremacy. And then there's another group of people who turn to scripture to support and affirm our sibling.It is two different kingdoms. It's funny, it came to me the other day because we talk about, I've talked about how for whiteness, the perception of goodness is more important than the possession of it.You know what I mean? So mostly what they do is seek to be absolved. Right? So it's just, and usually with the being absolved means I'm less bad than that, so make that thing more bad than me and it's a really terrible way to live a life, but it is how whiteness functions, and I'm thinking about this in the context of all that is happening in the world because it's like you cannot be good and racist period. And that's as clear as you cannot love God and mammon you will end up hating one and loving the other. You cannot love God. You cannotStarlette (16:29):Love God and hate your next of kin your sibling. Dr. Angela Parker says something really important During the Wild Goose Festival, she asked the participants there predominantly European American people, those racialized as white. She said, do you all Terry, do you Terry, do you wait for the Holy Spirit? Do you sit with yourself and wait for God to move? And it talked, it spoke to me about power dynamic. Do you feel like God is doing the moving and you wait for the spirit to anoint you, to fill you, to inspire you, to baptize you with fire? You Terry, do you wait a while or do you just the other end of that that she doesn't say, do you just get up? I gave my life to Jesus and it's done right handed fellowship, give me my certificate and walk out the door. You have to sit with yourself and I don't know what your tradition is.I was raised Pentecostal holiness and I had to tear all night long. I was on my knees calling on the name of Jesus and I swear that Baba couldn't hear me. Which octave do you want me to go in? I lost my voice. You know them people, them mothers circled me with a sheet and told me I didn't get it that night that I had to come back the next day after I sweat out my down, I sweat out my press. Okay. I pressed my way trying to get to that man and they told me he didn't hear me. He not coming to get you today. I don't hear a change. They were looking for an evidence of tongues. They didn't hear an evidence, a change speech. You still sound the way that you did when you came in here. And I think that white body supremacy, that's where the problem lies with me. There's no difference. I don't hear a change in speech. You're still talking to people as if you can look down your nose with them. You have not been submerged in the water. You did not go down in the water. White supremacy, white body supremacy has not been drowned out.Terry, you need to Terry A. Little while longer. I'll let you know when you've gotten free. When you've been lifted, there's a cloud of witnesses. Those mothers rubbing your back, snapping your back and saying, call on him. Call him like you want him. Call him like you need him and they'll tell you when they see evidence, they'll let you, you know when you've been tied up, tangled up. That's what we would say. Wrapped up in Jesus and I had to come back a second night and call on the Lord and then they waited a while. They looked, they said, don't touch her, leave her alone. He got her now, leave her alone. But there was an affirmation, there was a process. You couldn't just get up there and confess these ABCs and salvation, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Why do you think they'll let you know when you got it?Danielle (18:56):Why do you think that happened? Why? I have a question for You'all. Why do you think that became the reality of the prayer in that moment? And we're talking about Africans that have been brought here and enslaved. Why do you think that happened on our soil that way? Why question?Tamice (19:12):I mean I'm wondering about it because when stylists talk and I keep thinking the Terry in and of itself is a refusal. It says what I see is not real. What's in front of me is not right. I'm going to wait for something else.I'm saying, the slave Bible, them taking stuff out of the Bible and it's like, but I feel like the ground, there was something about the ground that indigenous people, that indigenous people were able to help them tap into over here. It was waiting on that.Starlette (19:49):We didn't have punishment. We had a percussion session. So they ring shouted me. I didn't know what it was at the time. We didn't have all the fancy stuff. Everybody had put me in key. We didn't have, we had this and feet them people circled around me. We don't do that no more.Danielle (20:06):We don't do that no more. But don't you think if you're a person that is, and I believe Africans came here with faith already. Oh yes, there's evidence of that. So put that aside, but don't you think then even if you have that faith and it's not so different than our time and you're confronted with slave owners and plantation owners also preaching quote the same faith that you're going to have to test it out on your neighbor when they're getting saved. You're going to have to make sure they didn't catch that bug.Don't you think there's something in there? Block it. Don't you think if you know faith internally already like we do and run into someone that's white that's preaching the same thing, we have to wait it out with them. Don't you think our ancestors knew that when they were here they were waiting it out. I just noticed my spirit match that spirit. We have to wait it out. Yes, because and let's say they didn't know Jesus. Some people didn't know Jesus and they met Jesus here for whatever reason, and your example is still the white man. You have to wait it out to make sure you're not reflecting that evilness. I mean that's what I'm thinking. That's it's the absolutelyStarlette (21:20):Truth. There's a book titled Slave Testimony, and I know this because I just read about it. There's a testimony of an enslaved African-American, he's unnamed. It was written on June 26th, 1821. He's talking to Master John. He said, I want permission to speak to you if you please. He talked about, he said, where is it? Where is it? A few words. I hope that you will not think Me too bull. Sir, I make my wants known to you because you are, I believe the oldest and most experienced that I know of. He says in the first place, I want you to tell me the reason why you always preach to the white folks and keep your back to us is because they sit up on the hill. We have no chance among them there. We must be forgotten because we are near enough. We are not near enough without getting in the edge of the swamp behind you. He was calling him to account. He said, when you sell me, do you make sure that I'm sold to a Christian or heathen?He said, we are charged with inattention because of where their position. He said it's impossible for us to pay good attention with this chance. In fact, some of us scarce think that we are preached to it all. He says, money appears to be the object. We are carried to market and sold to the highest bidder. Never once inquired whether you sold to a heathen or a Christian. If the question was put, did you sell to a Christian, what would the answer be? I can tell you, I can tell what he was, gave me my price. That's all I was interested in. So I don't want people to believe that Africans who were enslaved did not talk back, did not speak back. They took him to task. He said, everybody's not literate. There's about one in 50 people who are, and I'm one of them and I may not be able to speak very well, but this is what I want to tell you. I can tell the difference. I know that you're not preaching to me the same. I know that when you talk about salvation, you're not extending it to me.Yikes. You need to know that our people, these ancestors, not only were they having come to Jesus meetings, but they were having come to your senses, meeting with their oppressor and they wrote it down. They wrote it down. I get sick of the narratives that we are not our answer. Yes we are. Yes I am. I'm here because of them. I think they called me. I think they call me here. I think the fussing that I make, the anger that I possess this need to resist every damn thing. I think they make me do thatTamice (23:35):Indeed, I think. But I didn't get my voice until they took the MLE off, had an honor with my ancestors and they came and they told me it's time. Take that mle off, MLE off. Shoot. Why Jesus ain't tell me to take no muzzle off. I'm going to tell you that now.Danielle (23:52):That's why I mean many indigenous people said, Jesus didn't come back for me because if that guy's bringing me Jesus, then now Jesus didn't come back for me.Starlette (24:07):Come on.Make it plain. Danielle, go ahead. Go ahead. Walk heavy today. Yeah, I meanDanielle (24:17):I like this conversation. Why Jesus, why Jesus didn't come back for us, the three of us. He didn't come back for us. It didn't come back from kids. He didn't come back for my husband. Nope. And so then therefore that we're not going to find a freedom through that. No, that's no desire to be in that.Tamice (24:33):None. And that's what I mean and making it very, very plain to people like, listen, I actually don't want to be in heaven with your Jesus heaven. With your Jesus would be hell. I actually have one,Starlette (24:47):The one that they had for us, they had an N word heaven for us where they would continue to be served and they wrote it down. It's bad for people who are blio foes who like to read those testimonies. It is bad for people who like to read white body supremacy For Phil. Yeah, they had one for us. They had separate creation narratives known as polygenetic, but they also had separate alon whereby they thought that there was a white heaven and an inward heaven.I didn't even know that. Starla, I didn't even know that because they said they want to make sure their favorite slave was there to serve them. Oh yes, the delusion. People tell me that they're white. I really do push back for a reason. What do you mean by that? I disagree with all of it. What part of it do you find agreeable? The relationship of ruling that you maintain over me? The privilege. White power. Which part of it? Which part of it is good for you and for me? How does it help us maintain relationship as Christians?Danielle (25:47):I think that's the reality and the dissonance we live in. Right?Starlette (25:51):That's it. But I think there needs to be a separation.Are you a white supremacist or not?Tamice (26:03):That's what I'm saying. That's why I keep saying, listen, at this point, you can't be good and racist. Let me just say that. Oh no, you got to pickStarlette (26:12):And I need to hear itTamice (26:13):Both. Yeah. I need you to public confession of it.Starlette (26:19):Someone sent me a dm. I just want to thank you for your work and I completely agree. I quickly turned back around. I said, say it publicly. Get out of my dms. Say it publicly. Put it on your page. Don't congratulate me. Within two minutes or so. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to disturb you. You are right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Did he post anything? No. Say it publicly. Denounce them. Come out from among them.Very, very plain. As a white supremacist or na, as a kid, as children. HowDanielle (26:56):Hard is it? I think that's what made this moment so real and it's a kind of a reality. Fresher actually for everybody to be honest, because it's a reality. All certain things have been said. All manner of things have been said by people. This is just one example of many people that have said these things. Not the only person that's lived and died and said these things. And then when you say, Hey, this was said, someone's like, they didn't say that. You're like, no, some people put all their content on the internet receipts. They did it themselves. That's not true. And I went to a prayer vigil. I didn't go. I sat outside a prayer vigil this weekend and I listened in and they were praying for the resurrection like Jesus of certain people that have passed on. I kid you, I sat there in the car with a friend of mine and then my youngest daughter had come with me just to hang out. She's like, what are they praying for? I was like, they're like, they were praying for a certain person to be resurrected from the dead just like Jesus. And I was so confused. I'm so confused how we got that far, honestly. But I told my kid, I said, this is a moment of reality for you. This is a moment to know. People think like this.Starlette (28:13):Also, white bodyDanielle (28:14):Supremacy is heresy. Yes. It's not even related to the Bible. Not at all.Why I steal away. This is why even the mistranslated Bible, even the Bible that you could take,Starlette (28:33):ThisThe version Danielle started. If you wouldn't have said that, I wouldn't have said that. This is exactly why I steal away. This is exactly why I leave. Because you can't argue with people like that. Now we're resurrected. IAll I need, it's like away. This is exactly why, because I can't hear what Howard Thurman calls the sound of the genuine in that. It's just not going to happen.Danielle (29:01):Can you imagine what would've happened if we would've prayed for George Floyd to be resurrected? Listen, what would've happenedStarlette (29:08):That he called the scumbag.Danielle (29:10):Yeah, but what would've happened if we would've played for their resurrection? Adam, Adam Polito. ThatStarlette (29:19):Was foundTamice (29:19):Psychosis.Starlette (29:21):Yeah. What would've happened? See, don't push me now. I feel like I need to pack. As soon as I said fill away, it's like people keep saying, what are you going to do if gets worse? I'm going to leave my, I'll sell all this crapAbout this stuff. This booby trap of capitalism. I'll it all don't about none of it. What matters most to me is my sense of ness. And when you get to talking, I almost said talking out the side of your neck. Jesus God, today, lemme God Jesus of your neck. You just need to know that's a cultural thing. That's going to have to be reevaluated. God. It just came right on out. Oh Lord. When you start saying things that go against my sense of ness that you think that I have to defend my personhood, that you want to tell me that I don't exist as a person. I don't exist as a human. Back to your reality testament. It's time for me to leave. I'm not staying here and fighting a race war or a civil war. You mamas are just violent. It's what you've always been.Tamice (30:28):Why would I stand in the middle? Why would I stand in the middle of what I know is a confrontation with yourself?Starlette (30:36):Oh, okay. Alright. I'm going to justTamice (30:38):You all. What happened last week is it, it is a confrontation with a really disturbed self and they're trying to flip it. Oh yes. They're trying to make it. Yes. But this is like, I'm trying to tell people out here, this is beyond you, Jack, that was a prophetic witness against you because now you see that what you're fighting is the mirror. Keep me out of it. I won't fight your wars. Keep me out of it. Look, James Baldwin said, y'all have to decide and figure out why you needed a nigger in the first place.I'm not a nigger. I'm a man. But you, the white people need to figure out why you created the nigger in the first place. Fuck, this is not my problem. This is a y'all and I don't have anything invested in this. All I'm trying to do is raise my kids, man. Come on. Get out of here with that. I'm sorry.Danielle (31:48):No, you keep going and then go back to starlet. Why do you think then they made her Terry? They had to make sure she doesn't buy into that. That's my opinion.Tamice (32:00):It's funny too because I see, I mean, I wasn't Pentecostal. I feel like who's coming to mind as soon as you said that de y'all know I'm hip hop. Right? So KRS one.Starlette (32:12):Yes. Consciousness.Tamice (32:14):The mind. Oh yes, the mind, the imagination. He was, I mean from day one, trying to embed that in the youth. Like, Hey, the battlefield is the mind. Are you going to internalize this bullshit?Are you going to let them name you?Starlette (32:34):This is the word.Tamice (32:34):Are you going to let them tell you what is real for the people of God? That's That's what I'm saying, man. Hip hop, hip hop's, refusal has been refusal from day one. That's why I trust it.Because in seen it, it came from the bottom of this place. It's from the bottom of your shoe. It tells the truth about all of this. So when I listen to hip hop, I know I'm getting the truth.Starlette (32:57):Yeah. EnemyObjection. What did public enemy say? Can't trust it. Can't trust it. No, no, no, no. You got to play it back. We got to run all that back.Danielle (33:11):I just think how it's so weaponized, the dirt, the bottom of the shoe, all of that stuff. But that's where we actually, that's what got it. Our bodies hitting the road, hitting the pavement, hitting the grass, hitting the dirt. That's how we know we're in reality because we've been forced to in many ways and have a mindset that we are familiar with despite socioeconomic changes. We're familiar with that bottom place.Tamice (33:38):Yeah. I mean, bottom place is where God is at. That's what y'all don't understand. God comes from black, dark dirt, like God is coming from darkness and hiddenness and mystery. You don't love darkness. You don't love GodStarlette (33:56):Talk. Now this bottom place is not to be confused with the sunken place that some of y'all are in. I just want to be clear. I just want to be clear and I'm not coming to get you. Fall was the wrong day. TodayI think it's good though because there's so much intimidation in other communities at times. I'm not saying there's not through the lynchings, ongoing lynchings and violence too and the threats against colleges. But it's good for us to be reminded of our different cultural perspectives and hear people talk with power. Why do you think Martin Luther King and Cesar Chavez wrote letters to each other? They knew something about that and knew something about it. They knew something about it. They knew something about why it's important to maintain the bonds. Why we're different, why we're similar. They knew something about it. So I see it as a benefit and a growth in our reality. That is actually what threatens that, that relationship, that bond, that connection, that speaking life into one another. That's what threatens that kingdom that you're talking about. Yeah.You just can't fake an encounter either.When I was tear, no matter what I've decolonized and divested from and decentered, I cannot deny that experience. I know that God was present. I know that God touched me. So when mother even made sister, even made, my grandmother would call me when I was in college, first person to go to college. In our family, she would say before she asked about classes or anything else, and she really didn't know what to ask. She only had a sixth grade education. But her first question was always you yet holding on?Right. She holding on. And I said, yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Then she would, because it didn't matter if you couldn't keep the faith. There really wasn't nothing else for her to talk to you about. She was going to get ready to evangelize and get you back because you backslid. But that was her first thing. But what I've learned since then is that I can let go.The amazing thing is that the spirit is guiding me. I didn't let go all together. You got it. You got it. If it's real, if you're real, prove it. Demonstrate it. I'm getting chills now talk to me without me saying anything, touch me. I shouldn't have to do anything. Eugene Peterson says that prayer is answering speech. In fact, the only reason why I'm praying is because you said something to me first. It's not really on me to do anything. Even with the tear. I was already touched. I was already called. The reason why I was on my knees and pleading is because I'd already been compelled. Something had had already touched me. FirstThey called Holy Spirit. The hound of heaven. Damn right was already on my heels. I was already filled before I could even refuse. I was like, I don't want this. I'm going to always be star Jonah, get your people. I prefer fish guts. Throw me overboard. I don't like these people. Certified prophet because I don't want to do it. I never want to do it. I'm not interested at all. I have no too much history. I've had to deal with too much white body supremacy and prejudice and racism to want anything to do with the church. I see it for what? It's I'll never join one. By the way, are we recording? Is it on? I'm never joining a church ever. Until you all desegregate.You desegregate. Then we can talk about your ministry of reconciliation. Until then, you don't have one. Don't talk to me about a community day or a pulpit swap. I don't want to hear it. All Your praise. What did he say? A clinging, stumble, put away from me. Your conferences, all your multiracial. I don't want to hear none of it. Desegregate that part desegregate you, hypocrites, woe unto all of you white supremacists. If nobody ever told you that's not God. It's not of God. So I don't, for me, my reality is so above me, I know that Paul, because when I don't want to say anything, somebody is in my ear. Somebody was talking to me this morning. Somebody was writing a note in my ear. I had to get up. I said, please. I'm like, now I'm not even awake all the way. Stop talking to me. You can't fake that as much as I push against the Holy Spirit. You can't fake that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to say it. I'm of saying it. And yet I get up in the morning and it's like, say this, that post that. Write that. Somebody else is doing that. That's not me.As the mothers say, my flesh is weak. My flesh is not willing at all. I want to, all of y'all can go on. I'll pack this up and move somewhere else. Let them fight it to the death. I'm not going to, this is just my flesh speaking. Forgive me. Okay. This Raceless gospel is a calling friends. It's a calling. It's a calling, which means you coming into it. I'm an itinerant prophet. I'm heavy into the Hebrew scriptures. I come up with every excuse. My throat hurts. I got a speech impediment. The people don't like me. I'm not educated. It don't work. You need to know when people come to you and say, y'all need to get together, God speaking to you, the Pendo is coming. That's not like an invitation. That's kind of like a threat whether you want it or not. You're getting together.Everybody up. There's a meal ready, there's a banquet that is set and the food is getting cold and you are the reason why the drinks are watered down. That's go. You don't hear me calling you. ComeWhat I keep hearing. You have to know that God is speaking to people and saying that there's an invitation coming and you better get right. You better get washed up. Tam me said, you better let somebody pour that water over your hands. You better get washed up and get ready for dinner. I'm calling you. Come on in this house. Come on in this house. And this house is for everybody. Martin Luther King called it the world house. Everybody's coming in and you ain't got to like it doesn't matter. Get somewhere and sit down. That's that old church mother coming out of me and lemme just confess. I didn't even want to be on here this morning. I told God I didn't feel like talking. I told the Lord and you see what happened.Promise you. I'm a child. I'm full of disobedience.I was not in the mood. I said, I don't want to talk to nobody. I'm an introvert. I don't want to deal with none of this. Get somebody else to do it and look at it.Tamice (40:39):Yeah. It's funny because I woke up this morning, I was like, I'm not, I forgot. And then after all of the news today, I was like, I just don't have it in you, but this is, wait a minute. And it was three minutes past the time. Come on. And I was like, oh, well shoot. The house is empty. Nobody's here right now. I was like, well, lemme just log on. So this is definitely, it feels like definitely our calling do feel. I feel that way. I don't have time to bullshitSo I can't get out of it. I can't go to bed. I might as well say something. It won't let me go. I cannot do deceit. I can't do it. I can't sit idly by while people lie on God. I can't do that. I can't do it. It won't let up. And I'm trying to get in my body, get in this grass and get a little space. But I'm telling you, it won't let me go. And I feel it's important, Dee, you can't stop doing what you're doing. That's right. I mean is this thing of it is beyond me. It is living out of me. It's coming through me. And there has to be a reason for this. There's got to be a reason for this. And I don't know what it is because I know my eschatology is different, but I feel like, buddy, we got to manifest this kingdom. We have to manifest it until it pushes all that shit back. Come on. I'm telling you. Till it scurries it away or renders it and null and void, I'm talking. I mean, I want the type of light and glory on my being. That wicked logic disintegrate, wicked people drop dead. I mean that just in the Bible. In the Bible where Hert falls, headlong and worms eat em. Y'all celebrate that. Why can't I think about that? It's in your scriptures or daykin and the thing breaks and the legs of this false God break. I want that. I'm here for that. I'm going after that.Danielle (43:14):You think that this is what the definition of Terry is? That we're all Terry serious. I'm rocking the whole time. I'm serious. Right. That's what I told my kids. I said, in one sense, this is a one person of many that thinks this way. So we can't devote all our conversation in our house to this man. And I said in the other sense, because Starlet was asking me before he got here, how you doing? I said, we got up and I took calls from this person and that person and I told my kids, we're still advocating and doing what we can for the neighbors that need papers. And so we're going to continue doing that. That is the right thing to do. No matter what anybody else is doing in the world, we can do this.Tamice (43:56):Yeah, that's a good call. I mean, I'm headed to, I ain't going to say where I'm going no more, but I'm headed somewhere and going to be with people who are doing some innovation, right. Thinking how do we build a different world? How do our skillsets and passions coalesce and become something other than this? So I'm excited about that. And it's like that fire, it doesn't just drive me to want to rebuke. It does drive me to want to rebuild and rethink how we do everything. And I'm willing, I mean, I know that I don't know about y'all, but I feel like this, I'm getting out of dodge, but also I'm seeking the piece of the city. I feel both. I feel like I'm not holding hands with ridiculousness and I'm not moving in foolishness. But also I'm finna seek the piece of the city. My G I'm not running from delusion. Why would I? I'm in the truth. So I don't know how that maps onto a practical life, but we're finna figure it out. Out in it. I mean, the response of leadership to what has happened is a very clear sign where we are in terms of fascism. That's a very clear sign.What else y'all are looking for To tell you what it is.Danielle (45:36):But also we're the leaders. We are, we're the leaders. They're a leader of something, but they're not the leader of us. We're the leaders. We're the leaders. So no matter what they say, no matter what hate they spew, I really love Cesar Chavez. He's like, I still go out and feed the farm worker and I don't make them get on the boycott line because if they're pushed under the dirt, then they can't see hope. So people that have more economic power, a little more privilege than the other guy, we're the leaders. We're the ones that keep showing up in love. And love is a dangerous thing for these folks. They can't understand it. They can't grasp it. It is violent for them to feel love. Bodies actually reject it. And the more we show up, you're innovating. You're speaking Starla, you're preaching. We're the leaders. They're leaders of something. They're not leaders of us. We're leaders of freedom.Tamice (46:31):Come on now. D, we're leaders of give us thisStarlette (46:34):Bomb. We're leaders of compassion. You coming in here with the Holy Ghosts, acting like one of them church mothers. We were in the room together. She put our hand on us. YouDanielle (46:43):We're the ones that can remember Trey. We're the ones that can call for justice. We don't need them to do it. They've never done it. Right. Anyway. They have never showed up for a Mexican kid. They've never showed up for a black kid. They've never done it. Right. Anyway, we're the ones that can do it now. We have access to technology. We have access to our neighbors. We can bring a meal to a friend. We can give dollars to someone that needs gas. We're the the one doing it. We're the one that doing itTamice (47:11):Fill usDanielle (47:12):Up. They cannot take away our love.Starlette (47:15):Receive the benediction.Danielle: Yeah. They can't take it away. I'm telling you, if I saw someone shooting someone I hate, I would try to save that person. I don't own guns. I don't believe in guns, period. My family, that's my personal family's belief.And I would do that. I've thought about it many times. I thought would I do it? And I think I would because I actually believe that. I believe that people should not be shot dead. I believe that for the white kid. I believe that for the Mexican kid. I believe that for the black kid, we're the people that can show up. They're not going to come out here. They're inviting us to different kind of war. We're not in that war. That's right. We have love on our side and you cannot defeat love, kill love. You can'tTamice (48:04):Kill love and you can't kill life. That's the only reason somebody would ask you to be nonviolent. That's the only way somebody would've the audacity to ask that of you. Especially if you're oppressed. If the true is truth is that you can't kill love or life, damn man. It's hard out here for a pimp.Starlette (48:38):Really. Really? Yeah. Because what I really want to say isTamice (49:27):I can't. Your testimony a lie. No. Your testimony. That would be a lie. And like I said, truth telling is important. But there are days where I could be that I could go there, but I witnessed what happened that day. I watched the video. It's just not normal to watch that happen to anybody. And I don't care who you are. And the fact that we're there is just objectively just wow. And the fact that all of the spin and do y'all not realize what just happened? Just as a actual event. Right. What? You know, I'm saying how has this turned into diatribes? Right? We need reform. I, whichDanielle (50:29):Which, okay, so I have to cut us off. I have a client coming, but I want to hear from you, given all the nuance and complexity, how are you going to take care of your body this week or even just today? It doesn't have to be genius. Just one or two things you're going to do. Oh, I'm going toTamice (50:51):Take a nap. Yeah, you taking a nap? Y'all be so proud of me. I literally just said no to five things. I was like, I'm not coming to this. I'm not doing that. I won't be at this. I'm grieving. I'm go sit in the grass. Yeah, that's what I'm doing today. And I have stuff coming up. I'm like, Nope, I'm not available.Starlette (51:14):What about you Danielle? What are you going to do?Danielle (51:16):I'm going to eat scrambled eggs with no salt. I love that. I've grown my liver back so I have to have no salt. But I do love scrambled eggs. Scrambled eggs. That's the truth. Four. Four scrambled eggs.Starlette (51:31):And we thank you for your truth. BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity. Dr. Tamice Spencer - HelmsGod is not a weapon.  Authenticity is not a phase.Meet  Tamice Spencer-Helms (they/she). Tamice is a nonprofit leader, scholar-practitioner, pastor, and theoactivist based in Richmond, Virginia. For decades, Tamice has been guided by a singular purpose: to confront and heal what they call “diseased imagination”—the spiritual and social dis-ease that stifles agency, creativity, and collective flourishing. As a pastor for spiritual fugitives,  Tamice grounds their work at the intersection of social transformation, soulful leadership, womanist and queer liberation theologies, and cultural critique.A recognized voice in theoactivism, Tamice's work bridges the intellectual and the embodied, infusing rigorous scholarship with lived experience and spiritual practice. They hold two master's degrees (theology and leadership) and a doctorate in Social Transformation. Their frameworks, such as R.E.S.T. Mixtape and Soulful Leadership, which are research and evidence-based interventions that invite others into courageous truth-telling, radical belonging, and the kind of liberating leadership our times demand.​Whether facilitating retreats, speaking from the stage, consulting for organizations, or curating digital sanctuaries, Tamice's presence is both refuge and revolution. Their commitment is to help individuals and communities heal, reimagine, and build spaces where every person is seen, known, and liberated—where diseased imagination gives way to new possibilities. Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

 I assume most of us are familiar with The Message BibleOne of the more popular versions, and easiest to understand– Eugene Peterson did not set out to write a new translation• beginning in early 1980's the U.S. economy went into a slump and mortgage interest rates were rapidly climbing◦ people in his church were feeling the pinch, and reacting in the same way as people in townPeterson, “Paranoia infected the small talk I would overhear on street corners and in barbershops. To my dismay, all of this seeped into my congregation without encountering any resistance.”• to turn them from worldly concerns and find freedom in Jesus, he chose to immerse them in Galatians

Episode 71: Becoming: Still Enough to Listen with Cherisse Hixson Episode Description Welcome back, sweet friends! After a three-month summer sabbatical, I'm so excited to be back with you as we launch our new fall series on BECOMING. In this heartfelt episode, I'm sharing about a transformative weekend Solo Retreat that shifted everything for me - from learning to rest "between His shoulders" to discovering that it's actually NOT all up to me. If you've been feeling weary from the constant pace and pull of life, if you're longing to know Jesus more deeply, or if you're curious about what it means to slow down enough to actually hear His voice - this episode is for you. What We'll Explore Together: ✨ The beautiful gift of being completely unknown and accepted just as you are ✨ Why "silence" with Jesus is actually full of rich conversation ✨ How to create sacred containers for encountering God in the everyday ✨ Breaking free from the "if it is to be, it is up to me" mentality ✨ Learning to measure our days by the fruit of the Spirit instead of accomplishments ✨ What it means to rest securely in God's sufficiency Soul-Stirring Quotes Featured: Henri Nouwen on solitude as the place of conversion Dallas Willard on solitude as primary spiritual formation Eugene Peterson on finding our quiet center Ruth Haley Barton on silence making solitude possible Jim Branch on discovering we're not alone Scripture Anchors: Psalm 139:1-6 (You have searched me, Lord, and you know me) Deuteronomy 33:12 (Rest between His shoulders) Psalm 91:1 (Living under His shelter) Beautiful Bonus: I close our time together by reading Emily Dickinson's powerful poem "Hope" - the same words that anchored my soul during that sacred Friday morning. Connect & Continue the Journey Your soul needs this, friend. If this episode stirred something in your heart, I'd love for you to: ⭐ Leave a 5-star review - Your words help other weary souls find hope and rest in Jesus

Send me a Text Message!As we dive into the beatitudes, we immediately run into the word "Blessed." The word is used 9x's in the first 11 verses of the Sermon on the Mount. The Living Bible translates it, "fortunate, or happy."  Eugene Peterson in The Message uses the word "lucky."  What is the essence of lucky?  It's getting something you don't deserve.  In the Greek language, the word blessed is the word makairos. How do you describe, the blessed life? Makairos? What 2 or 3 things would you like to happen in your life, where if they happened, you would consider yourself "makairos."  Blessed? What is the blessed life? (And how do we get it?)

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Episode Summary: Being busy is a drug for most people. We believe that busyness is a badge of honor, that constant activity is good, and that productivity (whatever that means), makes us worthwhile. People like to talk about being busy all the time, but oftentimes their relationships suffer. So often we sleepwalk through our days, but there is a tremendous gift in practicing awareness in this present moment. In a culture that gives accolades for business and achievement, we run the risk of forgetting how to be present. Scripture reminds us to “Be still and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10) but how often do we willingly slow down? My guest, Courtney Ellis and I talk about how to be present in the moment and reap the benefits. Quotables from the episode: What would it look like to love my actual neighbors? What would it look like to press into this particular church? What would it look like to make our kids' schools our schools and really put our feet on the ground and help in all the ways that we can? And so this book came out of that desire that my husband and I had and that commitment we made before God to really try to live into the ministry of stability as long as he called us to. That's a big change after moving six times in six years. It is, it is. You learn some bad habits when you move a lot. Friends in the military, friends who have to move a lot and they say, yeah, you pick up some bad habits. So, we had to unlearn a lot of bad habits. You talk about leaning in and being present. So, what are some practical ways that we can choose to be present in the moment? And then what are some of the benefits? There are so many small, beautiful ways we can choose to be present. Often the easiest one is just to keep your phone in your pocket or your purse because it's fascinating. You'll be at the grocery store, and you see people standing in line and you can time it. People will stand in line patiently for about 30 seconds and then the hand goes down and the phone is out. And it's not that they're being impatient, but might as well use the time to do the word or scroll Facebook or whatever it is. And so, part of this, practicing this attentiveness toward God and being present in the moment is simply resisting that urge to do the easiest thing which is to pull out technology and distract ourselves. Sit near a window and just take a few minutes and observe what you see and it's almost like your soul is the shaken up snow globe and as you sit all of that snow starts to settle and you may hear from God, you may hear things in your own heart that you've been kind of stuffing down and as you're present to yourself, present to what you see around you, present to the Lord, beautiful things can happen. When we can make decisions in our lives ahead of time and leave them closed, it opens up our minds to new possibilities. It gives us new energy. And that's the difference between kind of leaving or living poised to leave and living planning to stay. And God may call us to go tomorrow, but today, if that decision is closed, we have all of these possibilities in front of us that we can turn our full attention to without already being fatigued. You refer to limits as a God -given grace. What do you mean by that? I don't like it. I'm going to start with that. I don't either. Talk about that for a minute. Yes. I want to be infinite. I want to keep going. I want to keep running. But limits ultimately are a grace and they're a reminder to us of our creatureliness that we are part of God's creation. We are not God. Even small things like coming to the end of a day and needing to go to sleep is a reminder of the limits God has set in our days, in our world, in our life. Multiple times a day we have to stop and eat. And that's an intentional creation of God. God could have created us to not need food. God could have created us to eat once a year. But these intentional checks and balances in our lives are an opportunity to practice dependence on God, to understand that our finitude is not burden, but it's grace, even if we are not always able to receive it in that way. Why do you call yourself an achievement addict and what does this have to do with learning to take a Sabbath rest? Yes, I would imagine I'm talking to another achievement addict here on the show. It takes one to know one. Yeah, I, especially early on in my life, that was where I would receive a lot of praise and adulation. And so I really grew into this. I am what I do. And if I've done enough in a day, I can feel good about myself, you know, when my husband and I compare notes at the end of the day and he'll say, "How was your day?" I still will most often jump to, "Well, I got a lot done and I feel really good about that." It's like, "Do you? Okay, let's talk about that. And there's nothing wrong with achievement, there's nothing wrong with being a driven person. But where you encounter some difficulty is when that becomes your identity. So, on a day where I'm ill, on a day where, you know, the kids didn't cooperate, on a day where something unexpected got thrown on my plate ministry -wise, does that mean I'm less of a person because I didn't check off my list? No, it doesn't. It means that God is the God of interruptions and God is the God of limitations. There's great grace in realizing that we are, you know, the old cliche, we're human beings, we're not human doings. and God has created us that way out of love and care and grace so we can rest at the end of the day even while leaving things undone. And that is the message of Sabbath is that once-a-week God commands doesn't invite doesn't suggest God commands that we rest from our labors and not because everything is done not because everything is polished and finished. And I love what Eugene Peterson, wonderful Presbyterian author has to say about Sabbath, which is that if you work with your mind, you should Sabbath with your hands. So, there should be worship, but also, you know, often my husband is out in the garden on Sabbath because that allows his mind to rest. But if you work with your hands, you should Sabbath with your mind. Busyness keeps us from stability and stability is what healthy people and a healthy society desperately needs. The United States has traditionally been one of the most mobile countries in the world with the average American moving about eleven times in their lifetimes. By contrast, Europeans move about four times. Busyness and the transitory nature of our lives and jobs means fewer deep connections with others. Fostering community is some of the toughest, most painful work we engage in. Being present means that we deliberately choose stability. In a world marked by transience, envy, and rootlessness, committing to stay put is a radical, unusual act. Transience threatens to dull our awareness of God. While stability may not always be our choice (like with a job relocation), it is something to be sought after. Remembering to pay attention can be the trickiest spiritual practice of all. Being present is about choices: setting aside time to rest (Sabbath) but also setting aside distractions (like technology). Sabbath is not a gift to you because you've achieved enough. It's actually a gift so that you will rest from your achievement and that's hard. In fact, you write remembering to pay attention can be the trickiest spiritual practice of to hack that a little think in many ways, those are the two primary spiritual disciplines, but what I'm learning is the older I get that the fundamental spiritual practice for all of us is learning to pay attention, to pay attention to God, to pay attention to our neighbor, to pay attention to what God is stirring up in our own souls, to pay attention to what God's stirring up in our broader culture. A lot of it comes back to those practices of noticing and being present with people. This is what Jesus did so well. Jesus was present with people who were very different than he was, people who had been wearing t -shirts with slogans that he did not agree with. And he did that by simply being present with people, by sharing meals with them, by having conversations, by noticing, he meets the woman at the well and through the power of the Holy Spirit, he knows things about her that we wouldn't have known, but we can notice, and we can love as Jesus loved. And so in building community, some of the best tools we have are not going on 100 miles an hour so we can pause at the mailbox and say, "Hey, how was your day?" So we can notice the person in the grocery store check-out line. So, it's slowing down and then practicing that same attentiveness, that spiritual practice of noticing with people. A big percentage of our listeners and viewers are dealing with pain, whether it's physical pain, it's emotional pain, relational pain, or even spiritual pain. So how can we learn to find God's presence in the present moment in the midst of our pain? What a good question. I think the first thing I'd say is sometimes you need to escape the pain a little bit and that's okay. Sometimes what you need are six episodes of the Great British Baking Show and God honors that and God blesses that. God doesn't always force us to face down our pain every minute of every day. So, it's kind of two feet of walking, we face it and then we take a breather, we take a rest, we take a nap. But I think the surprising thing, and we read this so often throughout the journey of Scripture, is that in those most painful moments, we find an intimacy with God that we don't find any other time. I would want to leave them with the gentle permission to slow down, to look up and look around, and to see what grace, God has strewn right in your path, right in front of you. It's easy to look for greener pastures. It's easy to lean into the dissatisfaction that our culture showcases all around us, but truly God has strewn our world with such delight. We slow down and start to look up. It's ours for the taking if we will slow down and be present in the moment. Scripture References: Matthew 5:34 We are warned not to “be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself.” Matthew 24:42-44 “… keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” Jeremiah 29:7 “Seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” Recommended Resources: Present: The Gift of Being All In, Right Where You Are by Courtney Sacred Scars: Resting in God’s Promise That Your Past Is Not Wasted by Dr. Michelle Bengtson The Hem of His Garment: Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner AWSA 2024 Golden Scroll Christian Living Book of the Year and the 2024 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in the Christian Living and Non-Fiction categories YouVersion 5-Day Devotional Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms Today is Going to be a Good Day: 90 Promises from God to Start Your Day Off Right by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, AWSA Member of the Year, winner of the AWSA 2023 Inspirational Gift Book of the Year Award, the 2024 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in the Devotional category, the 2023 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in four categories, and the Christian Literary Awards Henri Award for Devotionals YouVersion Devotional, Today is Going to be a Good Day version 1 YouVersion Devotional, Today is Going to be a Good Day version 2 Revive & Thrive Women’s Online Conference Revive & Thrive Summit 2 Trusting God through Cancer Summit 1 Trusting God through Cancer Summit 2 Breaking Anxiety’s Grip: How to Reclaim the Peace God Promises by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the AWSA 2020 Best Christian Living Book First Place, the first place winner for the Best Christian Living Book, the 2020 Carolina Christian Writer’s Conference Contest winner for nonfiction, and winner of the 2021 Christian Literary Award’s Reader’s Choice Award in all four categories for which it was nominated (Non-Fiction Victorious Living, Christian Living Day By Day, Inspirational Breaking Free and Testimonial Justified by Grace categories.) YouVersion Bible Reading Plan for Breaking Anxiety’s Grip Breaking Anxiety’s Grip Free Study Guide Free PDF Resource: How to Fight Fearful/Anxious Thoughts and Win Hope Prevails: Insights from a Doctor’s Personal Journey Through Depression by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Henri and Reader’s Choice Award Hope Prevails Bible Study by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Reader’s Choice Award Free Webinar: Help for When You’re Feeling Blue Social Media Links for Host and Guest: Connect with Courtney Ellis: Website / Facebook / Instagram / X For more hope, stay connected with Dr. Bengtson at: Order Book Sacred Scars / Order Book The Hem of His Garment / Order Book Today is Going to be a Good Day / Order Book Breaking Anxiety’s Grip / Order Book Hope Prevails / Website / Blog / Facebook / Twitter (@DrMBengtson) / LinkedIn / Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube / Podcast on Apple Guest: After six moves in as many years, Courtney Ellis found herself longing for the stability of one place. Her new book Present: The Gift of Being All In, Right Where You Are explores God’s call to be present, cultivating community and contentment right where we are. Courtney is a graduate of Wheaton College and Princeton Seminary. She trained to be an English lit professor before following God’s call to full-time ministry. She and her husband, Daryl, have three children and live in southern California where they pastor. Hosted By: Dr. Michelle Bengtson Audio Technical Support: Bryce Bengtson Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

In this episode of Thinking Out Loud, Nathan and Cameron dive into a rich theological reflection on spiritual preparedness in a chaotic world—using the metaphor of a flat spare tire to explore what it means to be caught off guard by life's inevitable crises. Drawing from Scripture, cultural trends, and the wisdom of thinkers like Kierkegaard and Eugene Peterson, they challenge modern Christians to consider the cost of distraction, emotional exhaustion, and constant busyness. Are we cultivating the spiritual depth and contemplative practices necessary to face suffering, loss, aging, and the deeper questions of faith? This episode speaks directly to believers looking for thoughtful, biblically grounded conversation about how to live wisely and intentionally in a noisy, demanding culture. If you're a Christian seeking to grow in wisdom, spiritual resilience, and theological depth, this conversation is for you. Subscribe now and join the discussion.DONATE LINK: https://toltogether.com/donate BOOK A SPEAKER: https://toltogether.com/book-a-speakerJOIN TOL CONNECT: https://toltogether.com/tol-connect TOL Connect is an online forum where TOL listeners can continue the conversation begun on the podcast.

In this episode, Whitney teaches through Luke 7:36-50 about a nameless woman who responds to Jesus in an awkward but beautiful display of affection. We see a great contrast between the host, Simon the Pharisee, who demonstrates cynicism, doubt, and judgment, and the woman who pours out sacrificially at the feet of Jesus, a woman known in town only as a sinner. This brief episode touches on the ways that we attempt to make ourselves look better than we are, while challenging us to live a version of faith that expresses itself in sincere action. It offers a fresh look at repentance and pushes us to ask how our faith is known beyond the words that we speak. Social media: IG - wlscarboroughShow Notes/Quotes:“Is Whitney even your real name?”“We have a tendency to make ourselves look better than we are.”“Genuine faith reveals itself in sincere action.”“I believe that repetition as we study God's Word is one of the most helpful and important things we can do.”“Eugene Peterson, the author of the Message version of the Bible, writes, ‘the NO we say to the world's lies and the YES we say to God's truth is repentance. It is always and everywhere the first word in the Christian life.'” “I think repentance is very hard for us, because we have a tendency to make ourselves look better than we are.”“My faith and your faith will look different, but our faith needs to visibly look like something. And I believe that it probably ought to look more like a messy, awkward display of abundant gratitude to our Savior and less like a crossed arm, judgmental view of our neighbor.”“Dane Ortlund is the author of a book called Gentle and Lowly, and he writes, ‘It's the most counterintuitive aspect of Christianity, that we are declared right with God not once we begin to get our act together but once we collapse into honest acknowledgement that we never will.'” Verses:Luke 7:36-50 1 Samuel 16:7James 2:262 Chronicles 7:14

What do the Psalms, U2, and honest prayer have in common? In this powerful closing message to our Selah series, Pastor Tom reflects on Psalm 40 and the deeper meaning behind the songs we sing. Drawing from the words of Eugene Peterson and Bono, this message explores how the Psalms hold the tensions of life—joy and sorrow, victory and waiting—with raw honesty and spiritual depth.Through the lens of music, we're reminded that faith isn't a formula to solve, but a song to keep singing—especially when life doesn't go as planned. Whether you're on a high or in the pit, this message invites you to rediscover worship as an authentic expression of where you are and who God is.

Dr. Ryan and Dr. Matt have a conversation with Dave Ripper about his new book Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard .Bio:Dave Ripper is the lead pastor of Crossway Christian Church, a multi-congregational church in southern New Hampshire focused on spiritual formation. He earned a Doctor of Ministry in spiritual direction from Fuller Theological Seminary and the Martin Institute for Christianity and Culture and Dallas Willard Research Center at Westmont College. He's the author of “Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard and coauthor of The Fellowship of the Suffering.”About the Book:Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus offers a unique pathway to deeper spiritual engagement, using Dallas Willard's revolutionary approach to reading the Bible. More than a study tool, Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus invites you to transform your encounters with Scripture from mere information gathering to profound spiritual experiences. Using primary source material and insights from Willard, Dave Ripper takes you on an immersive exploration of Scripture that mirrors the intellect of a philosopher and the heart of a mystic.You'll find experiential exercises designed to prompt reflection and foster enriching group conversations, helping you not just to read, but to truly know the God of the Bible. Perfect for pastors, ministry leaders, and spiritual seekers shaped by voices like Eugene Peterson and Richard Foster, Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus offers a call to experience God's presence in new and vibrant ways.Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus is a valuable resource for anyone seeking to deepen their understanding and connection with Scripture as a disciple of Jesus. It offers practical tools, insights, and exercises that can be applied both individually and in group settings. By incorporating the teachings of Dallas Willard, Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus provides a unique perspective on reading the Bible that goes beyond simple information gathering.Buy the book: https://a.co/d/4IN81Nz

Description: Today, we're revisiting a pivotal conversation that changed the course of Jen's life and career. In 2016, during what was expected to be a routine interview with journalist Jonathan Merritt, Jen found herself speaking publicly for the first time about her views on abortion, politics, and LGBTQ+ issues—beliefs she had been wrestling with privately for over a year. While she was confident in her answers, she was unprepared for the backlash that followed. In this encore episode, Jen and Jonathan reflect on that moment and its ripple effects. Jonathan shares his own parallel journey—growing up as the son of a megachurch pastor, internalizing the “love the sinner, hate the sin” message, and later confronting his own identity as a gay man. His story, like Jen's, became public in ways he never expected, leading him on a path of deeper truth, faith, and purpose. Thought-provoking Quotes: “You told the truth. You were ready for this interview. You had actually been doing the work for a decade to be ready to answer those questions honestly. But, your PR wasn't ready.” – Amy Hardin “The best way to live is true. No matter what you think it will cost or what it does cost you, the cost is worth the reward.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Religion News Service - https://religionnews.com/about-rns/ Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, gay marriage and more by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/jen-hatmaker-trump-black-lives-matter-gay-marriage Growing Up Evangelical and Gay with Jonathan Merritt - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-63/growing-up-evangelical-and-gay-with-jonathan-merritt/ My Saddest Good Friday in Memory: When Treasured Things are Dead - https://jenhatmaker.com/my-saddest-good-friday-in-memory-when-treasured-things-are-dead/ Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/love-is-the-game-changer-of-our-faith-bishop-michael-curry/ How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/how-to-create-a-politics-of-love-lisa-sharon-harper/ Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/christian-rock-star-admits-hes-gay-writes-letter-to-fans?rq=trey%20pearson Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/eugene-peterson-changing-mind-sex-issues-marriage?rq=eugene Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/leading-evangelical-ethicist-now-pro-lgbt?rq=david A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars – Jonathan Merritt -  Dr. Michael Lindsay,  Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile James Martin, Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/ Guest's Links: Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt Twitter - https://x.com/JonathanMerritt Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JonathanMerrittWriter Substack - https://jonathanmerritt.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices