Podcast appearances and mentions of eugene peterson

Ever wonder why the Bible ends with dragons, cosmic battles, and a woman giving birth in space? Turns out, Revelation 12 isn't trying to predict the future or scare you—it's doing something far more interesting. This passage takes everything the Bible has been saying about good, evil, death, and resurrection and cranks it up to high definition. Drawing on Eugene Peterson's insight that Revelation is meant to "revive our imagination" rather than give us new information, this sermon explores how ancient apocalyptic imagery speaks directly to our current moment of chaos and uncertainty. Whether you're familiar with the book of Revelation or have always found it confusing, you'll walk away with a fresh perspective on why these strange, vivid stories might be exactly what we need right now.

October 19, 2025 "Living together in a way that evokes the glad song of Psalm 133 is one of the great and arduous tasks before Christ's people. Nothing requires more attention and energy. It is easier to do almost anything else" -Eugene Peterson

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Reconstructing Scripture: From Solo to Symphony While many of the ideas and practices handed down to us about God and the church may have shifted, there is something about Jesus we still find compellingly beautiful. Often, after letting go of what wasn't working, we struggle to find a way forward that shapes our lives to mirror the Beloved Community of God.  Our Fall Vision series, Reconstructing Rhythms, continues with Christopher Mack gathering us to for the practice of Lectio divina as a way of stepping into God's Story, even as we find it infusing in our being. [Mark 12:28-34] Reflection  How does the relational nature of this scripture conversation between Jesus and the scribe impact how you might reflect on scripture? Where do you experience the disconnect in your life from hearing scripture and embodying it? How might our experience of scripture be different if we try making a meal of it (formational) instead of reading it for helpful or inspiring bits (informational)? Resource Book: Spiritual Disciplines Handbook: Practices that Transform Us by Adele Ahlberg Calhoun Book: Opening to God: Lectio Divina nad Life as Prayer by David Brenner Book: Solo: An Uncommon Devotional by Eugene Peterson, Jan Johnson, J.R. Briggs, and Katie Peckham Book: Eat This Book: A Conversation in the Art of Spiritual Reading by Eugene Peterson PDF: Vox Veniae Lectio Divina

"Our faith is not about how well we do our faith."— Scarlet HiltibidalToday's Episode: Join Natalie Abbott and Scarlet Hiltibidal as they discuss what it looks like to actually live by faith and instead of trusting in more tangible things. It's messy, and it often feels precarious, but it's so good. Scarlet talks about how she's seen God show up in the midst of cross-country moves and sad days and her mom's cancer diagnosis. She shares about the wonder of receiving instead of faking our faith or trying to earn God's favor. You won't want to miss this episode!This month's memory verse: "For we live by faith, not by sight." — 2 Corinthians 5:7Today's guest: Scarlet Hiltibidal is the author of “Afraid of All the Things,” “You're the Worst Person in the World,” “He Numbered the Pores on My Face,” and the “Anxious and Ashamed” Bible studies. She writes regularly for ParentLife Magazine, HomeLife Magazine, and She Reads Truth. Scarlet enjoys speaking to women around the country about the freedom and rest available in Jesus. She loves hanging out with her husband and four kids, eating nachos by herself, writing for her friends, and studying stand-up comedy with a passion that should be reserved for more important pursuits. Want to go even deeper in this month's verse? Study along with Natalie in the monthly Bible Study Membership. Get the first month FREE with the code: PODCAST.Love this show? Support us by leaving a review.Links from today's show: Find out all things Scarlet at ScarletHiltibidal.com. Get your copy of Scarlet's book, Hopeful-ish.Get the ESV Prayer Journals for 30% off with a free Crossway Plus account.Check out the Forever Welcomed bible study, by Oghosa Iyamu. Check out the book Scarlet recommended: A Long Obedience in the Same Direction, by Eugene Peterson.  Support the showFollow Natalie & Vera at DwellDifferently.com and @dwelldifferenly.

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Join us as Pastor Tommy continues the sermon series Here as in Heaven. Eugene Peterson described the church as a "colony of heaven in a country of death." God's desire is to bring heaven here, and this overflows into our worlds. In this message we will describe our strategy for missions based on Acts 1:8. We will emphasize the significance of Jesus' identity as King in the New Testament. We will stress that the phrase "kingdom of God" signifies God's reign and rule through Christ, encouraging repentance and belief in Jesus' message, urging us to prioritize God's kingdom in our lives. We will discuss the importance of recognizing Jesus as the Anointed One and the impact of this understanding on evangelism.References: Acts 1:8 & Matthew 28:16-20To get connected visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠...To Donate ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://midtownvineyard.churchcenter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.... Download the church center app to stay in the loop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://churchcenter.com/setup⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Discover more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com...⁠⁠⁠ us on Instagram: / midtownvineyard Find us on Facebook: / midtownvineyardmbSermon Notes: Rightnowmedia.com

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Join us as Pastor Tommy continues the sermon series Here as in Heaven. Eugene Peterson described the church as a "colony of heaven in a country of death." God's desire is to bring heaven here, and this requires practice in community. In this message we will will share about our small groups that we have here and encourage everyone to experience communities of formation.References: Acts 2:42-47To get connected visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠...To Donate ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://midtownvineyard.churchcenter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.... Download the church center app to stay in the loop ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://churchcenter.com/setup⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Discover more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.midtownvineyardchurch.com...⁠⁠⁠ us on Instagram: / midtownvineyard Find us on Facebook: / midtownvineyardmbSermon Notes: Rightnowmedia.com

In this episode of the Unhurried Living Podcast, we explore the difference between work that flows from grace and love, and work that drains us because it’s fueled by fear, insecurity, or people-pleasing. Together we’ll talk about holy rhythms of work and rest, and what it looks like to return to the “easy yoke” of Jesus. If you’ve been feeling weary, overextended, or caught in workaholism, this conversation offers hope: you can lead from rest rather than rush. What You’ll Take Away from This Episode: How to discern between grace-energized work and soul-draining drivenness. Why busyness, according to Eugene Peterson, is not productivity but a form of laziness. The danger of “false vines” that drain life rather than nourish it. Small, sustainable practices for weaving sabbath and reflection into daily rhythms. How contemplative practices root us in God’s presence so our work becomes overflow, not overextension. Resources & References Mentioned in This Episode: Subversive Spirituality by Eugene Peterson New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (various translations available) The Spiritual Life by Evelyn Underhill Jesus’ teaching on the easy yoke (Matthew 11:28–30) and the vine and branches (John 15) Connect with Alan on LinkedIn or learn more about Unhurried Living programs on their website. Learn about PACE: Certificate in Leadership and Soul Care Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Reality and Faith Prompts1. What are the formations or structures for how you know you are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Internal senses? External resources? 2. Who are you in active dialogue with in regards to your faith? Who that is living and who that is passed on? 3. When you encounter dissonance with your reality of faith, how do you stay grounded in your experience?TranscriptsDanielle (00:00):To my computer. So thank you Starlet. Thank you Tamis for being with me. I've given already full introductions. I've recorded those separately. So the theme of the conversation and kind of what we're getting into on this podcast this season is I had this vision for talking about the themes have been race, faith, culture, church in the past on my podcast. But what I really think the question is, where is our reality and where are our touchpoints in those different realms? And so today there's going to be more info on this in the future, but where do we find reality and how do we form our reality when we integrate faith? So one of the questions I was asking Tamis and Starlet was what are the formations or structures for how you know are in reality in regards to your faith? Do you have indicators? Do you have internal senses? Do you have external resources? And so that's where I want to jump off from and it's free flow. I don't do a whole lot of editing, but yeah, just curious where your mind goes when you hear that, what comes to mind and we'll jump from there.Starlette (01:12):I immediately thought of baptism, baptismal waters. My baptismal identity forms and shapes me. It keeps me in touch with my body. It keeps me from being disembodied. Also, it keeps me from being swindled out of authority over my body due to the dangerous irrationalism of white body supremacy. So that's one thing. Protest also keeps me grounded. I have found that acts of defiance, minor personal rebellions, they do well for me. They keep me spiritually that I feel like it keeps me in step with Jesus. And I always feel like I'm catching up that I'm almost stepping on his feet. So for me, baptismal identity and protesting, those are the two things come to me immediately.Tamice (02:04):Whoa, that's so deep. Wow, I never thought about that. But I never thought about protests being a thing that groundsBecause I mean I've just been, for me I would say I've been working on the right so, and y'all know me, so I got acronyms for days. But I mean I think that the radical ethical spirituality that's tethered to my tradition, that's a rule of life, but it's also a litmus test. So for me, if you can't tell the truth, we don't have conversations about non-violence and loving enemies. I don't get to ethical spirituality unless you come through the front door of truth telling and truth telling in that sense of the r. And the rest arrest mix tape is radical. Angela Davis says radical and that's grasping stuff at the root. So before we have conversations about forgiveness for instance, or Jesus or scripture or what is right and what is moral, it's very important that we first tell the truth about the foundations of those realities and what we even mean by those terms and whose those terms serve and where they come from. I talk about it asking to see the manager. We need see the manager(03:24):Me that grounds me is now if something comes in and it calls me to move in a different way or corrects me or checks me in a certain way, I say yes to it if it comes through the door of truth telling because it means I also got to be true and tell the truth to myself. So that keeps me grounded. That kind of acronym is kind of how I move, but it's also how I keep toxic ways of doing religion out. And I also have come back into relationship with trees and grass and the waters and that's been really powerful for moving down into different types of intelligence. For me, the earth has been pulling me into a different way of knowing and being in that part brings me to ancestors. Just like you starlet my ancestors, I keep finding them in the trees and in the water and in the wind. So it's like, well I need them real bad right now. So that's where I'm kind of grounding myself these days.But to your point about grounding and protest, I feel most compelled to show up in spaces where the ground is crying out screaming. I feel like it beckons me there. And we talked about the most recent news of Trey being found and you talked about truth telling and what resonated immediately. And it didn't sit right with me that African-American people, people of African descent know not to take their lives in that way because of the traumatic history that when you say things like you don't suspect any foul play, it sounds like what has historically been named as at the hands of persons unknown where that no one is held responsible for the death of African-American people. That's what ties it in for me. And I feel like it's an ancestral pool that they didn't leave this way, they didn't leave in the way that they were supposed to, that something stinks and that they're crying out to say, can you hear me? Come over here Terry a while here. Don't leave him here. Don't let up on it because we didn't call him here somebody. So I love that you said that you are, feel yourself being grounded in and call back to the earth because I do feel like it speaks to us,But there are telltale signs in it and that the trees will tell us too. And so I didn't have a hand in this. It was forced on me and I saw it all come and talk to me. Put your hand here, put your head here and you can hear me scream and then you can hear me scream, you can hear him scream. He was calling out the whole time. That's what I believe in. That's how I test reality. I tested against what the earth is saying like you said, but I think we have to walk the ground a bit. We have to pace the ground a bit. We can't just go off of what people are saying. Back to your point about truth telling, don't trust nobody I don't trust. I don't trust anybody that's going to stop because you can't fix a lie. So if you're going to come in with deception, there's not much else I can do with you. There's not much I can say to you. And I find that white body supremacy is a supreme deception. So if we can't start there in a conversation, there's nothing that I can say to youTamice (06:46):That's facts. It's interesting that you talked about baptism, you talked about grounding and I had this story pop up and while you were talking again it popped up again. So I'm going to tell it. So we are not going to talk about who and all the things that happened recently, but I had made some comments online around that and around just the choice to be blind. So I've been talking a lot about John nine and this passage where it is very clear to everyone else what's happening, but the people who refuse to see, refuse to see.So in that, I was kind of pulled into that. I was in Mississippi, I was doing some stuff for the book and this lady, a chaplain, her name is Sally Bevin, actually Sally Bevel, she walked up to me, she kept calling me, she was like, Tam me, she want to come. I have my whole family there. We were at the Mississippi Book Fair and she kept saying, Tam me, she want to come join, dah, dah, dah. Then my family walked off and they started to peruse and then she asked me again and I was like, no, I'm good. And I was screaming. I mean I'm looking in the screen and the third time she did it, it pulled me out and I was like, this woman is trying to pull me into being present. And she said to me, this is funny, starlet. I said, I feel like I need to be washed and I need a baptism because this phone feels like so on right now and the wickedness is pulling me. So she poured, she got some ice, cold water, it was 95 degrees, poured cold water on my hands, had me wash my hands and she took the cold water. She put a cross on my forehead. And you know what she said to me? She said, remember your baptism?She said, remember your baptism? And when I was baptized, even though it was by a man who will not also be named, when I was baptized the wind, there was a whirlwind at my baptism. It was in 2004, that same wind hit in Mississippi and then I felt like I was supposed to take my shoes off. So I walked around the Mississippi Festival with no shoes on, not knowing that the earth was about to receive two people who did not deserve to be hung from trees. And there's something very, I feel real talk, I feel afraid for white supremacy right now in the name of my ancestors and I feel like I'm calling on everything right now. And that's also grounding me.Starlette (09:36):I was with Mother Moses last week. I went to Dorchester County just to be with her because the people were here. Take me. I said, I'll leave them all here. I know you said there are a few here, but give me the names, give me the last names of the people because I don't have time for this. I see why she left people. I see why she was packing. So to your point, I think it's important that we talk to the ancestors faithfully, religiously. We sit down at their feet and listen for a bit about how they got over and how they got through it and let them bear witness to us. And she does it for me every time, every single time she grounds, she grounds meDanielle (10:23):Listening to you all. I was like, oh wait. It is like Luke 19 where Jesus is coming in on the show and he didn't ride in on the fanciest plane on a donkey. And if you're familiar with that culture that is not the most elevated animal, not the elevated animal to ride, it's not the elevated animal. You don't eat it. Not saying that it isn't eaten at times, but it's not right. So he rides in on that and then people are saying glory to God in the highest and they're praising him and the Pharisees are like, don't do that because it's shameful and I don't remember the exact words, but he's basically be quiet. The rocks are going to tell the story of what happened here. He's walking his way. It kind of reminds me to me. So what you're saying, he's walking away, he's going to walk and he's going to walk that way and he's going to walk to his death. He's walking it in two scenarios that Jesus goes in to talk about. Your eyes are going to be blind to peace, to the real way to peace. It's going to be a wall put around you and you're going to miss out. People are going to destroy you because you missed your chance.Starlette (11:50):Point again creation. And if you're going to be a rock headed people, then I'll recruit this rock choir. They get ready to rock out on you. If there's nothing you're going to say. So even then he says that creation will bear witness against you. You ain't got to do it. You ain't got to do it. I can call these rock. You can be rock headed if you want to. You can be stony hearted if you want to. I can recruit choir members from the ground,Tamice (12:16):But not even that because y'all know I'm into the quantum and metaphysics. Not even that they actually do speak of course, like words are frequencies. So when you hold a certain type of element in your hand, that thing has a frequency to it. That's alright that they said whatever, I don't need it from you. Everything else is tapped into this.Starlette (12:39):Right. In fact, it's the rocks are tapped into a reality. The same reality that me and this donkey and these people throwing stuff at my feet are tapped into.You are not tapped into reality. And so that's why he makes the left and not the right because typically when a person is coming to Saka city, they head towards the temple. He went the other direction because he is like it was a big fuck. I don't use power like this. And actually what I'm about to do is raise you on power. This is a whole different type of power. And that's what I feel like our ancestors, the realities that the alternative intelligence in the world you're talking about ai, the alternative intelligence in the world is what gives me every bit of confidence to look this beast in the face and call it what it is. This isTamice (13:52):And not going to bow to it. And I will go down proclaiming it what it is. I will not call wickedness good.And Jesus said, Jesus was so when he talks about the kingdom of heaven suffering violence and the violence taken it by force, it's that it's like there's something so much more violent about being right and righteous. Y'all have to use violence because you can't tell the truth.Danielle (14:29):Do you see the split two? There's two entirely different realities happening. Two different kingdoms, two entirely different ways of living in this era and they're using quote J, but it's not the same person. It can't be, you cannot mix white Jesus and brown Jesus. They don't go together. TheyStarlette (15:00):Don't, what is it? Michael O. Emerson and Glenn e Bracy. The second they have this new book called The Religion of Whiteness, and they talk about the fact that European Americans who are racialized as white Tahi says those who believe they are white. He says that there's a group of people, the European Americans who are racialized as white, who turn to scripture to enforce their supremacy. And then there's another group of people who turn to scripture to support and affirm our sibling.It is two different kingdoms. It's funny, it came to me the other day because we talk about, I've talked about how for whiteness, the perception of goodness is more important than the possession of it.You know what I mean? So mostly what they do is seek to be absolved. Right? So it's just, and usually with the being absolved means I'm less bad than that, so make that thing more bad than me and it's a really terrible way to live a life, but it is how whiteness functions, and I'm thinking about this in the context of all that is happening in the world because it's like you cannot be good and racist period. And that's as clear as you cannot love God and mammon you will end up hating one and loving the other. You cannot love God. You cannotStarlette (16:29):Love God and hate your next of kin your sibling. Dr. Angela Parker says something really important During the Wild Goose Festival, she asked the participants there predominantly European American people, those racialized as white. She said, do you all Terry, do you Terry, do you wait for the Holy Spirit? Do you sit with yourself and wait for God to move? And it talked, it spoke to me about power dynamic. Do you feel like God is doing the moving and you wait for the spirit to anoint you, to fill you, to inspire you, to baptize you with fire? You Terry, do you wait a while or do you just the other end of that that she doesn't say, do you just get up? I gave my life to Jesus and it's done right handed fellowship, give me my certificate and walk out the door. You have to sit with yourself and I don't know what your tradition is.I was raised Pentecostal holiness and I had to tear all night long. I was on my knees calling on the name of Jesus and I swear that Baba couldn't hear me. Which octave do you want me to go in? I lost my voice. You know them people, them mothers circled me with a sheet and told me I didn't get it that night that I had to come back the next day after I sweat out my down, I sweat out my press. Okay. I pressed my way trying to get to that man and they told me he didn't hear me. He not coming to get you today. I don't hear a change. They were looking for an evidence of tongues. They didn't hear an evidence, a change speech. You still sound the way that you did when you came in here. And I think that white body supremacy, that's where the problem lies with me. There's no difference. I don't hear a change in speech. You're still talking to people as if you can look down your nose with them. You have not been submerged in the water. You did not go down in the water. White supremacy, white body supremacy has not been drowned out.Terry, you need to Terry A. Little while longer. I'll let you know when you've gotten free. When you've been lifted, there's a cloud of witnesses. Those mothers rubbing your back, snapping your back and saying, call on him. Call him like you want him. Call him like you need him and they'll tell you when they see evidence, they'll let you, you know when you've been tied up, tangled up. That's what we would say. Wrapped up in Jesus and I had to come back a second night and call on the Lord and then they waited a while. They looked, they said, don't touch her, leave her alone. He got her now, leave her alone. But there was an affirmation, there was a process. You couldn't just get up there and confess these ABCs and salvation, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. Why do you think they'll let you know when you got it?Danielle (18:56):Why do you think that happened? Why? I have a question for You'all. Why do you think that became the reality of the prayer in that moment? And we're talking about Africans that have been brought here and enslaved. Why do you think that happened on our soil that way? Why question?Tamice (19:12):I mean I'm wondering about it because when stylists talk and I keep thinking the Terry in and of itself is a refusal. It says what I see is not real. What's in front of me is not right. I'm going to wait for something else.I'm saying, the slave Bible, them taking stuff out of the Bible and it's like, but I feel like the ground, there was something about the ground that indigenous people, that indigenous people were able to help them tap into over here. It was waiting on that.Starlette (19:49):We didn't have punishment. We had a percussion session. So they ring shouted me. I didn't know what it was at the time. We didn't have all the fancy stuff. Everybody had put me in key. We didn't have, we had this and feet them people circled around me. We don't do that no more.Danielle (20:06):We don't do that no more. But don't you think if you're a person that is, and I believe Africans came here with faith already. Oh yes, there's evidence of that. So put that aside, but don't you think then even if you have that faith and it's not so different than our time and you're confronted with slave owners and plantation owners also preaching quote the same faith that you're going to have to test it out on your neighbor when they're getting saved. You're going to have to make sure they didn't catch that bug.Don't you think there's something in there? Block it. Don't you think if you know faith internally already like we do and run into someone that's white that's preaching the same thing, we have to wait it out with them. Don't you think our ancestors knew that when they were here they were waiting it out. I just noticed my spirit match that spirit. We have to wait it out. Yes, because and let's say they didn't know Jesus. Some people didn't know Jesus and they met Jesus here for whatever reason, and your example is still the white man. You have to wait it out to make sure you're not reflecting that evilness. I mean that's what I'm thinking. That's it's the absolutelyStarlette (21:20):Truth. There's a book titled Slave Testimony, and I know this because I just read about it. There's a testimony of an enslaved African-American, he's unnamed. It was written on June 26th, 1821. He's talking to Master John. He said, I want permission to speak to you if you please. He talked about, he said, where is it? Where is it? A few words. I hope that you will not think Me too bull. Sir, I make my wants known to you because you are, I believe the oldest and most experienced that I know of. He says in the first place, I want you to tell me the reason why you always preach to the white folks and keep your back to us is because they sit up on the hill. We have no chance among them there. We must be forgotten because we are near enough. We are not near enough without getting in the edge of the swamp behind you. He was calling him to account. He said, when you sell me, do you make sure that I'm sold to a Christian or heathen?He said, we are charged with inattention because of where their position. He said it's impossible for us to pay good attention with this chance. In fact, some of us scarce think that we are preached to it all. He says, money appears to be the object. We are carried to market and sold to the highest bidder. Never once inquired whether you sold to a heathen or a Christian. If the question was put, did you sell to a Christian, what would the answer be? I can tell you, I can tell what he was, gave me my price. That's all I was interested in. So I don't want people to believe that Africans who were enslaved did not talk back, did not speak back. They took him to task. He said, everybody's not literate. There's about one in 50 people who are, and I'm one of them and I may not be able to speak very well, but this is what I want to tell you. I can tell the difference. I know that you're not preaching to me the same. I know that when you talk about salvation, you're not extending it to me.Yikes. You need to know that our people, these ancestors, not only were they having come to Jesus meetings, but they were having come to your senses, meeting with their oppressor and they wrote it down. They wrote it down. I get sick of the narratives that we are not our answer. Yes we are. Yes I am. I'm here because of them. I think they called me. I think they call me here. I think the fussing that I make, the anger that I possess this need to resist every damn thing. I think they make me do thatTamice (23:35):Indeed, I think. But I didn't get my voice until they took the MLE off, had an honor with my ancestors and they came and they told me it's time. Take that mle off, MLE off. Shoot. Why Jesus ain't tell me to take no muzzle off. I'm going to tell you that now.Danielle (23:52):That's why I mean many indigenous people said, Jesus didn't come back for me because if that guy's bringing me Jesus, then now Jesus didn't come back for me.Starlette (24:07):Come on.Make it plain. Danielle, go ahead. Go ahead. Walk heavy today. Yeah, I meanDanielle (24:17):I like this conversation. Why Jesus, why Jesus didn't come back for us, the three of us. He didn't come back for us. It didn't come back from kids. He didn't come back for my husband. Nope. And so then therefore that we're not going to find a freedom through that. No, that's no desire to be in that.Tamice (24:33):None. And that's what I mean and making it very, very plain to people like, listen, I actually don't want to be in heaven with your Jesus heaven. With your Jesus would be hell. I actually have one,Starlette (24:47):The one that they had for us, they had an N word heaven for us where they would continue to be served and they wrote it down. It's bad for people who are blio foes who like to read those testimonies. It is bad for people who like to read white body supremacy For Phil. Yeah, they had one for us. They had separate creation narratives known as polygenetic, but they also had separate alon whereby they thought that there was a white heaven and an inward heaven.I didn't even know that. Starla, I didn't even know that because they said they want to make sure their favorite slave was there to serve them. Oh yes, the delusion. People tell me that they're white. I really do push back for a reason. What do you mean by that? I disagree with all of it. What part of it do you find agreeable? The relationship of ruling that you maintain over me? The privilege. White power. Which part of it? Which part of it is good for you and for me? How does it help us maintain relationship as Christians?Danielle (25:47):I think that's the reality and the dissonance we live in. Right?Starlette (25:51):That's it. But I think there needs to be a separation.Are you a white supremacist or not?Tamice (26:03):That's what I'm saying. That's why I keep saying, listen, at this point, you can't be good and racist. Let me just say that. Oh no, you got to pickStarlette (26:12):And I need to hear itTamice (26:13):Both. Yeah. I need you to public confession of it.Starlette (26:19):Someone sent me a dm. I just want to thank you for your work and I completely agree. I quickly turned back around. I said, say it publicly. Get out of my dms. Say it publicly. Put it on your page. Don't congratulate me. Within two minutes or so. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to disturb you. You are right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Did he post anything? No. Say it publicly. Denounce them. Come out from among them.Very, very plain. As a white supremacist or na, as a kid, as children. HowDanielle (26:56):Hard is it? I think that's what made this moment so real and it's a kind of a reality. Fresher actually for everybody to be honest, because it's a reality. All certain things have been said. All manner of things have been said by people. This is just one example of many people that have said these things. Not the only person that's lived and died and said these things. And then when you say, Hey, this was said, someone's like, they didn't say that. You're like, no, some people put all their content on the internet receipts. They did it themselves. That's not true. And I went to a prayer vigil. I didn't go. I sat outside a prayer vigil this weekend and I listened in and they were praying for the resurrection like Jesus of certain people that have passed on. I kid you, I sat there in the car with a friend of mine and then my youngest daughter had come with me just to hang out. She's like, what are they praying for? I was like, they're like, they were praying for a certain person to be resurrected from the dead just like Jesus. And I was so confused. I'm so confused how we got that far, honestly. But I told my kid, I said, this is a moment of reality for you. This is a moment to know. People think like this.Starlette (28:13):Also, white bodyDanielle (28:14):Supremacy is heresy. Yes. It's not even related to the Bible. Not at all.Why I steal away. This is why even the mistranslated Bible, even the Bible that you could take,Starlette (28:33):ThisThe version Danielle started. If you wouldn't have said that, I wouldn't have said that. This is exactly why I steal away. This is exactly why I leave. Because you can't argue with people like that. Now we're resurrected. IAll I need, it's like away. This is exactly why, because I can't hear what Howard Thurman calls the sound of the genuine in that. It's just not going to happen.Danielle (29:01):Can you imagine what would've happened if we would've prayed for George Floyd to be resurrected? Listen, what would've happenedStarlette (29:08):That he called the scumbag.Danielle (29:10):Yeah, but what would've happened if we would've played for their resurrection? Adam, Adam Polito. ThatStarlette (29:19):Was foundTamice (29:19):Psychosis.Starlette (29:21):Yeah. What would've happened? See, don't push me now. I feel like I need to pack. As soon as I said fill away, it's like people keep saying, what are you going to do if gets worse? I'm going to leave my, I'll sell all this crapAbout this stuff. This booby trap of capitalism. I'll it all don't about none of it. What matters most to me is my sense of ness. And when you get to talking, I almost said talking out the side of your neck. Jesus God, today, lemme God Jesus of your neck. You just need to know that's a cultural thing. That's going to have to be reevaluated. God. It just came right on out. Oh Lord. When you start saying things that go against my sense of ness that you think that I have to defend my personhood, that you want to tell me that I don't exist as a person. I don't exist as a human. Back to your reality testament. It's time for me to leave. I'm not staying here and fighting a race war or a civil war. You mamas are just violent. It's what you've always been.Tamice (30:28):Why would I stand in the middle? Why would I stand in the middle of what I know is a confrontation with yourself?Starlette (30:36):Oh, okay. Alright. I'm going to justTamice (30:38):You all. What happened last week is it, it is a confrontation with a really disturbed self and they're trying to flip it. Oh yes. They're trying to make it. Yes. But this is like, I'm trying to tell people out here, this is beyond you, Jack, that was a prophetic witness against you because now you see that what you're fighting is the mirror. Keep me out of it. I won't fight your wars. Keep me out of it. Look, James Baldwin said, y'all have to decide and figure out why you needed a nigger in the first place.I'm not a nigger. I'm a man. But you, the white people need to figure out why you created the nigger in the first place. Fuck, this is not my problem. This is a y'all and I don't have anything invested in this. All I'm trying to do is raise my kids, man. Come on. Get out of here with that. I'm sorry.Danielle (31:48):No, you keep going and then go back to starlet. Why do you think then they made her Terry? They had to make sure she doesn't buy into that. That's my opinion.Tamice (32:00):It's funny too because I see, I mean, I wasn't Pentecostal. I feel like who's coming to mind as soon as you said that de y'all know I'm hip hop. Right? So KRS one.Starlette (32:12):Yes. Consciousness.Tamice (32:14):The mind. Oh yes, the mind, the imagination. He was, I mean from day one, trying to embed that in the youth. Like, Hey, the battlefield is the mind. Are you going to internalize this bullshit?Are you going to let them name you?Starlette (32:34):This is the word.Tamice (32:34):Are you going to let them tell you what is real for the people of God? That's That's what I'm saying, man. Hip hop, hip hop's, refusal has been refusal from day one. That's why I trust it.Because in seen it, it came from the bottom of this place. It's from the bottom of your shoe. It tells the truth about all of this. So when I listen to hip hop, I know I'm getting the truth.Starlette (32:57):Yeah. EnemyObjection. What did public enemy say? Can't trust it. Can't trust it. No, no, no, no. You got to play it back. We got to run all that back.Danielle (33:11):I just think how it's so weaponized, the dirt, the bottom of the shoe, all of that stuff. But that's where we actually, that's what got it. Our bodies hitting the road, hitting the pavement, hitting the grass, hitting the dirt. That's how we know we're in reality because we've been forced to in many ways and have a mindset that we are familiar with despite socioeconomic changes. We're familiar with that bottom place.Tamice (33:38):Yeah. I mean, bottom place is where God is at. That's what y'all don't understand. God comes from black, dark dirt, like God is coming from darkness and hiddenness and mystery. You don't love darkness. You don't love GodStarlette (33:56):Talk. Now this bottom place is not to be confused with the sunken place that some of y'all are in. I just want to be clear. I just want to be clear and I'm not coming to get you. Fall was the wrong day. TodayI think it's good though because there's so much intimidation in other communities at times. I'm not saying there's not through the lynchings, ongoing lynchings and violence too and the threats against colleges. But it's good for us to be reminded of our different cultural perspectives and hear people talk with power. Why do you think Martin Luther King and Cesar Chavez wrote letters to each other? They knew something about that and knew something about it. They knew something about it. They knew something about why it's important to maintain the bonds. Why we're different, why we're similar. They knew something about it. So I see it as a benefit and a growth in our reality. That is actually what threatens that, that relationship, that bond, that connection, that speaking life into one another. That's what threatens that kingdom that you're talking about. Yeah.You just can't fake an encounter either.When I was tear, no matter what I've decolonized and divested from and decentered, I cannot deny that experience. I know that God was present. I know that God touched me. So when mother even made sister, even made, my grandmother would call me when I was in college, first person to go to college. In our family, she would say before she asked about classes or anything else, and she really didn't know what to ask. She only had a sixth grade education. But her first question was always you yet holding on?Right. She holding on. And I said, yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Then she would, because it didn't matter if you couldn't keep the faith. There really wasn't nothing else for her to talk to you about. She was going to get ready to evangelize and get you back because you backslid. But that was her first thing. But what I've learned since then is that I can let go.The amazing thing is that the spirit is guiding me. I didn't let go all together. You got it. You got it. If it's real, if you're real, prove it. Demonstrate it. I'm getting chills now talk to me without me saying anything, touch me. I shouldn't have to do anything. Eugene Peterson says that prayer is answering speech. In fact, the only reason why I'm praying is because you said something to me first. It's not really on me to do anything. Even with the tear. I was already touched. I was already called. The reason why I was on my knees and pleading is because I'd already been compelled. Something had had already touched me. FirstThey called Holy Spirit. The hound of heaven. Damn right was already on my heels. I was already filled before I could even refuse. I was like, I don't want this. I'm going to always be star Jonah, get your people. I prefer fish guts. Throw me overboard. I don't like these people. Certified prophet because I don't want to do it. I never want to do it. I'm not interested at all. I have no too much history. I've had to deal with too much white body supremacy and prejudice and racism to want anything to do with the church. I see it for what? It's I'll never join one. By the way, are we recording? Is it on? I'm never joining a church ever. Until you all desegregate.You desegregate. Then we can talk about your ministry of reconciliation. Until then, you don't have one. Don't talk to me about a community day or a pulpit swap. I don't want to hear it. All Your praise. What did he say? A clinging, stumble, put away from me. Your conferences, all your multiracial. I don't want to hear none of it. Desegregate that part desegregate you, hypocrites, woe unto all of you white supremacists. If nobody ever told you that's not God. It's not of God. So I don't, for me, my reality is so above me, I know that Paul, because when I don't want to say anything, somebody is in my ear. Somebody was talking to me this morning. Somebody was writing a note in my ear. I had to get up. I said, please. I'm like, now I'm not even awake all the way. Stop talking to me. You can't fake that as much as I push against the Holy Spirit. You can't fake that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to say it. I'm of saying it. And yet I get up in the morning and it's like, say this, that post that. Write that. Somebody else is doing that. That's not me.As the mothers say, my flesh is weak. My flesh is not willing at all. I want to, all of y'all can go on. I'll pack this up and move somewhere else. Let them fight it to the death. I'm not going to, this is just my flesh speaking. Forgive me. Okay. This Raceless gospel is a calling friends. It's a calling. It's a calling, which means you coming into it. I'm an itinerant prophet. I'm heavy into the Hebrew scriptures. I come up with every excuse. My throat hurts. I got a speech impediment. The people don't like me. I'm not educated. It don't work. You need to know when people come to you and say, y'all need to get together, God speaking to you, the Pendo is coming. That's not like an invitation. That's kind of like a threat whether you want it or not. You're getting together.Everybody up. There's a meal ready, there's a banquet that is set and the food is getting cold and you are the reason why the drinks are watered down. That's go. You don't hear me calling you. ComeWhat I keep hearing. You have to know that God is speaking to people and saying that there's an invitation coming and you better get right. You better get washed up. Tam me said, you better let somebody pour that water over your hands. You better get washed up and get ready for dinner. I'm calling you. Come on in this house. Come on in this house. And this house is for everybody. Martin Luther King called it the world house. Everybody's coming in and you ain't got to like it doesn't matter. Get somewhere and sit down. That's that old church mother coming out of me and lemme just confess. I didn't even want to be on here this morning. I told God I didn't feel like talking. I told the Lord and you see what happened.Promise you. I'm a child. I'm full of disobedience.I was not in the mood. I said, I don't want to talk to nobody. I'm an introvert. I don't want to deal with none of this. Get somebody else to do it and look at it.Tamice (40:39):Yeah. It's funny because I woke up this morning, I was like, I'm not, I forgot. And then after all of the news today, I was like, I just don't have it in you, but this is, wait a minute. And it was three minutes past the time. Come on. And I was like, oh, well shoot. The house is empty. Nobody's here right now. I was like, well, lemme just log on. So this is definitely, it feels like definitely our calling do feel. I feel that way. I don't have time to bullshitSo I can't get out of it. I can't go to bed. I might as well say something. It won't let me go. I cannot do deceit. I can't do it. I can't sit idly by while people lie on God. I can't do that. I can't do it. It won't let up. And I'm trying to get in my body, get in this grass and get a little space. But I'm telling you, it won't let me go. And I feel it's important, Dee, you can't stop doing what you're doing. That's right. I mean is this thing of it is beyond me. It is living out of me. It's coming through me. And there has to be a reason for this. There's got to be a reason for this. And I don't know what it is because I know my eschatology is different, but I feel like, buddy, we got to manifest this kingdom. We have to manifest it until it pushes all that shit back. Come on. I'm telling you. Till it scurries it away or renders it and null and void, I'm talking. I mean, I want the type of light and glory on my being. That wicked logic disintegrate, wicked people drop dead. I mean that just in the Bible. In the Bible where Hert falls, headlong and worms eat em. Y'all celebrate that. Why can't I think about that? It's in your scriptures or daykin and the thing breaks and the legs of this false God break. I want that. I'm here for that. I'm going after that.Danielle (43:14):You think that this is what the definition of Terry is? That we're all Terry serious. I'm rocking the whole time. I'm serious. Right. That's what I told my kids. I said, in one sense, this is a one person of many that thinks this way. So we can't devote all our conversation in our house to this man. And I said in the other sense, because Starlet was asking me before he got here, how you doing? I said, we got up and I took calls from this person and that person and I told my kids, we're still advocating and doing what we can for the neighbors that need papers. And so we're going to continue doing that. That is the right thing to do. No matter what anybody else is doing in the world, we can do this.Tamice (43:56):Yeah, that's a good call. I mean, I'm headed to, I ain't going to say where I'm going no more, but I'm headed somewhere and going to be with people who are doing some innovation, right. Thinking how do we build a different world? How do our skillsets and passions coalesce and become something other than this? So I'm excited about that. And it's like that fire, it doesn't just drive me to want to rebuke. It does drive me to want to rebuild and rethink how we do everything. And I'm willing, I mean, I know that I don't know about y'all, but I feel like this, I'm getting out of dodge, but also I'm seeking the piece of the city. I feel both. I feel like I'm not holding hands with ridiculousness and I'm not moving in foolishness. But also I'm finna seek the piece of the city. My G I'm not running from delusion. Why would I? I'm in the truth. So I don't know how that maps onto a practical life, but we're finna figure it out. Out in it. I mean, the response of leadership to what has happened is a very clear sign where we are in terms of fascism. That's a very clear sign.What else y'all are looking for To tell you what it is.Danielle (45:36):But also we're the leaders. We are, we're the leaders. They're a leader of something, but they're not the leader of us. We're the leaders. We're the leaders. So no matter what they say, no matter what hate they spew, I really love Cesar Chavez. He's like, I still go out and feed the farm worker and I don't make them get on the boycott line because if they're pushed under the dirt, then they can't see hope. So people that have more economic power, a little more privilege than the other guy, we're the leaders. We're the ones that keep showing up in love. And love is a dangerous thing for these folks. They can't understand it. They can't grasp it. It is violent for them to feel love. Bodies actually reject it. And the more we show up, you're innovating. You're speaking Starla, you're preaching. We're the leaders. They're leaders of something. They're not leaders of us. We're leaders of freedom.Tamice (46:31):Come on now. D, we're leaders of give us thisStarlette (46:34):Bomb. We're leaders of compassion. You coming in here with the Holy Ghosts, acting like one of them church mothers. We were in the room together. She put our hand on us. YouDanielle (46:43):We're the ones that can remember Trey. We're the ones that can call for justice. We don't need them to do it. They've never done it. Right. Anyway. They have never showed up for a Mexican kid. They've never showed up for a black kid. They've never done it. Right. Anyway, we're the ones that can do it now. We have access to technology. We have access to our neighbors. We can bring a meal to a friend. We can give dollars to someone that needs gas. We're the the one doing it. We're the one that doing itTamice (47:11):Fill usDanielle (47:12):Up. They cannot take away our love.Starlette (47:15):Receive the benediction.Danielle: Yeah. They can't take it away. I'm telling you, if I saw someone shooting someone I hate, I would try to save that person. I don't own guns. I don't believe in guns, period. My family, that's my personal family's belief.And I would do that. I've thought about it many times. I thought would I do it? And I think I would because I actually believe that. I believe that people should not be shot dead. I believe that for the white kid. I believe that for the Mexican kid. I believe that for the black kid, we're the people that can show up. They're not going to come out here. They're inviting us to different kind of war. We're not in that war. That's right. We have love on our side and you cannot defeat love, kill love. You can'tTamice (48:04):Kill love and you can't kill life. That's the only reason somebody would ask you to be nonviolent. That's the only way somebody would've the audacity to ask that of you. Especially if you're oppressed. If the true is truth is that you can't kill love or life, damn man. It's hard out here for a pimp.Starlette (48:38):Really. Really? Yeah. Because what I really want to say isTamice (49:27):I can't. Your testimony a lie. No. Your testimony. That would be a lie. And like I said, truth telling is important. But there are days where I could be that I could go there, but I witnessed what happened that day. I watched the video. It's just not normal to watch that happen to anybody. And I don't care who you are. And the fact that we're there is just objectively just wow. And the fact that all of the spin and do y'all not realize what just happened? Just as a actual event. Right. What? You know, I'm saying how has this turned into diatribes? Right? We need reform. I, whichDanielle (50:29):Which, okay, so I have to cut us off. I have a client coming, but I want to hear from you, given all the nuance and complexity, how are you going to take care of your body this week or even just today? It doesn't have to be genius. Just one or two things you're going to do. Oh, I'm going toTamice (50:51):Take a nap. Yeah, you taking a nap? Y'all be so proud of me. I literally just said no to five things. I was like, I'm not coming to this. I'm not doing that. I won't be at this. I'm grieving. I'm go sit in the grass. Yeah, that's what I'm doing today. And I have stuff coming up. I'm like, Nope, I'm not available.Starlette (51:14):What about you Danielle? What are you going to do?Danielle (51:16):I'm going to eat scrambled eggs with no salt. I love that. I've grown my liver back so I have to have no salt. But I do love scrambled eggs. Scrambled eggs. That's the truth. Four. Four scrambled eggs.Starlette (51:31):And we thank you for your truth. BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity. Dr. Tamice Spencer - HelmsGod is not a weapon.  Authenticity is not a phase.Meet  Tamice Spencer-Helms (they/she). Tamice is a nonprofit leader, scholar-practitioner, pastor, and theoactivist based in Richmond, Virginia. For decades, Tamice has been guided by a singular purpose: to confront and heal what they call “diseased imagination”—the spiritual and social dis-ease that stifles agency, creativity, and collective flourishing. As a pastor for spiritual fugitives,  Tamice grounds their work at the intersection of social transformation, soulful leadership, womanist and queer liberation theologies, and cultural critique.A recognized voice in theoactivism, Tamice's work bridges the intellectual and the embodied, infusing rigorous scholarship with lived experience and spiritual practice. They hold two master's degrees (theology and leadership) and a doctorate in Social Transformation. Their frameworks, such as R.E.S.T. Mixtape and Soulful Leadership, which are research and evidence-based interventions that invite others into courageous truth-telling, radical belonging, and the kind of liberating leadership our times demand.​Whether facilitating retreats, speaking from the stage, consulting for organizations, or curating digital sanctuaries, Tamice's presence is both refuge and revolution. Their commitment is to help individuals and communities heal, reimagine, and build spaces where every person is seen, known, and liberated—where diseased imagination gives way to new possibilities. Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

 I assume most of us are familiar with The Message BibleOne of the more popular versions, and easiest to understand– Eugene Peterson did not set out to write a new translation• beginning in early 1980's the U.S. economy went into a slump and mortgage interest rates were rapidly climbing◦ people in his church were feeling the pinch, and reacting in the same way as people in townPeterson, “Paranoia infected the small talk I would overhear on street corners and in barbershops. To my dismay, all of this seeped into my congregation without encountering any resistance.”• to turn them from worldly concerns and find freedom in Jesus, he chose to immerse them in Galatians

Episode 71: Becoming: Still Enough to Listen with Cherisse Hixson Episode Description Welcome back, sweet friends! After a three-month summer sabbatical, I'm so excited to be back with you as we launch our new fall series on BECOMING. In this heartfelt episode, I'm sharing about a transformative weekend Solo Retreat that shifted everything for me - from learning to rest "between His shoulders" to discovering that it's actually NOT all up to me. If you've been feeling weary from the constant pace and pull of life, if you're longing to know Jesus more deeply, or if you're curious about what it means to slow down enough to actually hear His voice - this episode is for you. What We'll Explore Together: ✨ The beautiful gift of being completely unknown and accepted just as you are ✨ Why "silence" with Jesus is actually full of rich conversation ✨ How to create sacred containers for encountering God in the everyday ✨ Breaking free from the "if it is to be, it is up to me" mentality ✨ Learning to measure our days by the fruit of the Spirit instead of accomplishments ✨ What it means to rest securely in God's sufficiency Soul-Stirring Quotes Featured: Henri Nouwen on solitude as the place of conversion Dallas Willard on solitude as primary spiritual formation Eugene Peterson on finding our quiet center Ruth Haley Barton on silence making solitude possible Jim Branch on discovering we're not alone Scripture Anchors: Psalm 139:1-6 (You have searched me, Lord, and you know me) Deuteronomy 33:12 (Rest between His shoulders) Psalm 91:1 (Living under His shelter) Beautiful Bonus: I close our time together by reading Emily Dickinson's powerful poem "Hope" - the same words that anchored my soul during that sacred Friday morning. Connect & Continue the Journey Your soul needs this, friend. If this episode stirred something in your heart, I'd love for you to: ⭐ Leave a 5-star review - Your words help other weary souls find hope and rest in Jesus

Send me a Text Message!As we dive into the beatitudes, we immediately run into the word "Blessed." The word is used 9x's in the first 11 verses of the Sermon on the Mount. The Living Bible translates it, "fortunate, or happy."  Eugene Peterson in The Message uses the word "lucky."  What is the essence of lucky?  It's getting something you don't deserve.  In the Greek language, the word blessed is the word makairos. How do you describe, the blessed life? Makairos? What 2 or 3 things would you like to happen in your life, where if they happened, you would consider yourself "makairos."  Blessed? What is the blessed life? (And how do we get it?)

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Religion in our time has been captured by the tourist mindset. Religion is understood as a visit to an attractive site to be made when we have adequate leisure. For some it is a weekly jaunt to church; for others, occasional visits to special services. Some, with a bent for religious entertainment and sacred diversion, plan their lives around special events like retreats, rallies and conferences. We go to see a new personality, to hear a new truth, to get a new experience and so somehow expand our otherwise humdrum lives.”~ Eugene Peterson

Christian Science Bible Study read from The Message, copyright by Eugene Peterson and from 21st Century Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: A modern version of Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, copyright by Cheryl Petersen

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Christian Science Bible Lesson read from The Message, copyright by Eugene Peterson, and from 21st Century Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: A modern version of Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, copyright by Cheryl Petersen https://healingsciencetoday.wordpress.com/https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F5NT6KJ6#christianscience #christiansciencebelief#christianscientist #christiansciencetoday #prayer #spirituality #marybakereddy#scienceandhealth #keytoscriptures #biblestudy #biblereading #bibleinspiration

Eugene Peterson says, "For Isaiah words are watercolors and melodies and chisels to make truth, and beauty and goodness.  Or as the case may be hammers and swords and scalpels to unmake sin, guilt and rebellion.  He creates visions, delivers revelation, arouses belief.  Isaiah is the supreme poet prophet to come out of the Hebrew people."  The characteristic name for God in Isaiah is "The Holy."  For Isaiah, Holiness is a furnace that transforms the men and women who enter it. Come join us as we take in the "Salvation Symphony" of Judgment (chapters 1-39), Comfort (chapters 40-55) and Hope (chapters 56-66).

Episode Summary: Being busy is a drug for most people. We believe that busyness is a badge of honor, that constant activity is good, and that productivity (whatever that means), makes us worthwhile. People like to talk about being busy all the time, but oftentimes their relationships suffer. So often we sleepwalk through our days, but there is a tremendous gift in practicing awareness in this present moment. In a culture that gives accolades for business and achievement, we run the risk of forgetting how to be present. Scripture reminds us to “Be still and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10) but how often do we willingly slow down? My guest, Courtney Ellis and I talk about how to be present in the moment and reap the benefits. Quotables from the episode: What would it look like to love my actual neighbors? What would it look like to press into this particular church? What would it look like to make our kids' schools our schools and really put our feet on the ground and help in all the ways that we can? And so this book came out of that desire that my husband and I had and that commitment we made before God to really try to live into the ministry of stability as long as he called us to. That's a big change after moving six times in six years. It is, it is. You learn some bad habits when you move a lot. Friends in the military, friends who have to move a lot and they say, yeah, you pick up some bad habits. So, we had to unlearn a lot of bad habits. You talk about leaning in and being present. So, what are some practical ways that we can choose to be present in the moment? And then what are some of the benefits? There are so many small, beautiful ways we can choose to be present. Often the easiest one is just to keep your phone in your pocket or your purse because it's fascinating. You'll be at the grocery store, and you see people standing in line and you can time it. People will stand in line patiently for about 30 seconds and then the hand goes down and the phone is out. And it's not that they're being impatient, but might as well use the time to do the word or scroll Facebook or whatever it is. And so, part of this, practicing this attentiveness toward God and being present in the moment is simply resisting that urge to do the easiest thing which is to pull out technology and distract ourselves. Sit near a window and just take a few minutes and observe what you see and it's almost like your soul is the shaken up snow globe and as you sit all of that snow starts to settle and you may hear from God, you may hear things in your own heart that you've been kind of stuffing down and as you're present to yourself, present to what you see around you, present to the Lord, beautiful things can happen. When we can make decisions in our lives ahead of time and leave them closed, it opens up our minds to new possibilities. It gives us new energy. And that's the difference between kind of leaving or living poised to leave and living planning to stay. And God may call us to go tomorrow, but today, if that decision is closed, we have all of these possibilities in front of us that we can turn our full attention to without already being fatigued. You refer to limits as a God -given grace. What do you mean by that? I don't like it. I'm going to start with that. I don't either. Talk about that for a minute. Yes. I want to be infinite. I want to keep going. I want to keep running. But limits ultimately are a grace and they're a reminder to us of our creatureliness that we are part of God's creation. We are not God. Even small things like coming to the end of a day and needing to go to sleep is a reminder of the limits God has set in our days, in our world, in our life. Multiple times a day we have to stop and eat. And that's an intentional creation of God. God could have created us to not need food. God could have created us to eat once a year. But these intentional checks and balances in our lives are an opportunity to practice dependence on God, to understand that our finitude is not burden, but it's grace, even if we are not always able to receive it in that way. Why do you call yourself an achievement addict and what does this have to do with learning to take a Sabbath rest? Yes, I would imagine I'm talking to another achievement addict here on the show. It takes one to know one. Yeah, I, especially early on in my life, that was where I would receive a lot of praise and adulation. And so I really grew into this. I am what I do. And if I've done enough in a day, I can feel good about myself, you know, when my husband and I compare notes at the end of the day and he'll say, "How was your day?" I still will most often jump to, "Well, I got a lot done and I feel really good about that." It's like, "Do you? Okay, let's talk about that. And there's nothing wrong with achievement, there's nothing wrong with being a driven person. But where you encounter some difficulty is when that becomes your identity. So, on a day where I'm ill, on a day where, you know, the kids didn't cooperate, on a day where something unexpected got thrown on my plate ministry -wise, does that mean I'm less of a person because I didn't check off my list? No, it doesn't. It means that God is the God of interruptions and God is the God of limitations. There's great grace in realizing that we are, you know, the old cliche, we're human beings, we're not human doings. and God has created us that way out of love and care and grace so we can rest at the end of the day even while leaving things undone. And that is the message of Sabbath is that once-a-week God commands doesn't invite doesn't suggest God commands that we rest from our labors and not because everything is done not because everything is polished and finished. And I love what Eugene Peterson, wonderful Presbyterian author has to say about Sabbath, which is that if you work with your mind, you should Sabbath with your hands. So, there should be worship, but also, you know, often my husband is out in the garden on Sabbath because that allows his mind to rest. But if you work with your hands, you should Sabbath with your mind. Busyness keeps us from stability and stability is what healthy people and a healthy society desperately needs. The United States has traditionally been one of the most mobile countries in the world with the average American moving about eleven times in their lifetimes. By contrast, Europeans move about four times. Busyness and the transitory nature of our lives and jobs means fewer deep connections with others. Fostering community is some of the toughest, most painful work we engage in. Being present means that we deliberately choose stability. In a world marked by transience, envy, and rootlessness, committing to stay put is a radical, unusual act. Transience threatens to dull our awareness of God. While stability may not always be our choice (like with a job relocation), it is something to be sought after. Remembering to pay attention can be the trickiest spiritual practice of all. Being present is about choices: setting aside time to rest (Sabbath) but also setting aside distractions (like technology). Sabbath is not a gift to you because you've achieved enough. It's actually a gift so that you will rest from your achievement and that's hard. In fact, you write remembering to pay attention can be the trickiest spiritual practice of to hack that a little think in many ways, those are the two primary spiritual disciplines, but what I'm learning is the older I get that the fundamental spiritual practice for all of us is learning to pay attention, to pay attention to God, to pay attention to our neighbor, to pay attention to what God is stirring up in our own souls, to pay attention to what God's stirring up in our broader culture. A lot of it comes back to those practices of noticing and being present with people. This is what Jesus did so well. Jesus was present with people who were very different than he was, people who had been wearing t -shirts with slogans that he did not agree with. And he did that by simply being present with people, by sharing meals with them, by having conversations, by noticing, he meets the woman at the well and through the power of the Holy Spirit, he knows things about her that we wouldn't have known, but we can notice, and we can love as Jesus loved. And so in building community, some of the best tools we have are not going on 100 miles an hour so we can pause at the mailbox and say, "Hey, how was your day?" So we can notice the person in the grocery store check-out line. So, it's slowing down and then practicing that same attentiveness, that spiritual practice of noticing with people. A big percentage of our listeners and viewers are dealing with pain, whether it's physical pain, it's emotional pain, relational pain, or even spiritual pain. So how can we learn to find God's presence in the present moment in the midst of our pain? What a good question. I think the first thing I'd say is sometimes you need to escape the pain a little bit and that's okay. Sometimes what you need are six episodes of the Great British Baking Show and God honors that and God blesses that. God doesn't always force us to face down our pain every minute of every day. So, it's kind of two feet of walking, we face it and then we take a breather, we take a rest, we take a nap. But I think the surprising thing, and we read this so often throughout the journey of Scripture, is that in those most painful moments, we find an intimacy with God that we don't find any other time. I would want to leave them with the gentle permission to slow down, to look up and look around, and to see what grace, God has strewn right in your path, right in front of you. It's easy to look for greener pastures. It's easy to lean into the dissatisfaction that our culture showcases all around us, but truly God has strewn our world with such delight. We slow down and start to look up. It's ours for the taking if we will slow down and be present in the moment. Scripture References: Matthew 5:34 We are warned not to “be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself.” Matthew 24:42-44 “… keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” Jeremiah 29:7 “Seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” Recommended Resources: Present: The Gift of Being All In, Right Where You Are by Courtney Sacred Scars: Resting in God’s Promise That Your Past Is Not Wasted by Dr. Michelle Bengtson The Hem of His Garment: Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner AWSA 2024 Golden Scroll Christian Living Book of the Year and the 2024 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in the Christian Living and Non-Fiction categories YouVersion 5-Day Devotional Reaching Out To God When Pain Overwhelms Today is Going to be a Good Day: 90 Promises from God to Start Your Day Off Right by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, AWSA Member of the Year, winner of the AWSA 2023 Inspirational Gift Book of the Year Award, the 2024 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in the Devotional category, the 2023 Christian Literary Awards Reader’s Choice Award in four categories, and the Christian Literary Awards Henri Award for Devotionals YouVersion Devotional, Today is Going to be a Good Day version 1 YouVersion Devotional, Today is Going to be a Good Day version 2 Revive & Thrive Women’s Online Conference Revive & Thrive Summit 2 Trusting God through Cancer Summit 1 Trusting God through Cancer Summit 2 Breaking Anxiety’s Grip: How to Reclaim the Peace God Promises by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the AWSA 2020 Best Christian Living Book First Place, the first place winner for the Best Christian Living Book, the 2020 Carolina Christian Writer’s Conference Contest winner for nonfiction, and winner of the 2021 Christian Literary Award’s Reader’s Choice Award in all four categories for which it was nominated (Non-Fiction Victorious Living, Christian Living Day By Day, Inspirational Breaking Free and Testimonial Justified by Grace categories.) YouVersion Bible Reading Plan for Breaking Anxiety’s Grip Breaking Anxiety’s Grip Free Study Guide Free PDF Resource: How to Fight Fearful/Anxious Thoughts and Win Hope Prevails: Insights from a Doctor’s Personal Journey Through Depression by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Henri and Reader’s Choice Award Hope Prevails Bible Study by Dr. Michelle Bengtson, winner of the Christian Literary Award Reader’s Choice Award Free Webinar: Help for When You’re Feeling Blue Social Media Links for Host and Guest: Connect with Courtney Ellis: Website / Facebook / Instagram / X For more hope, stay connected with Dr. Bengtson at: Order Book Sacred Scars / Order Book The Hem of His Garment / Order Book Today is Going to be a Good Day / Order Book Breaking Anxiety’s Grip / Order Book Hope Prevails / Website / Blog / Facebook / Twitter (@DrMBengtson) / LinkedIn / Instagram / Pinterest / YouTube / Podcast on Apple Guest: After six moves in as many years, Courtney Ellis found herself longing for the stability of one place. Her new book Present: The Gift of Being All In, Right Where You Are explores God’s call to be present, cultivating community and contentment right where we are. Courtney is a graduate of Wheaton College and Princeton Seminary. She trained to be an English lit professor before following God’s call to full-time ministry. She and her husband, Daryl, have three children and live in southern California where they pastor. Hosted By: Dr. Michelle Bengtson Audio Technical Support: Bryce Bengtson Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

In this episode of Thinking Out Loud, Nathan and Cameron dive into a rich theological reflection on spiritual preparedness in a chaotic world—using the metaphor of a flat spare tire to explore what it means to be caught off guard by life's inevitable crises. Drawing from Scripture, cultural trends, and the wisdom of thinkers like Kierkegaard and Eugene Peterson, they challenge modern Christians to consider the cost of distraction, emotional exhaustion, and constant busyness. Are we cultivating the spiritual depth and contemplative practices necessary to face suffering, loss, aging, and the deeper questions of faith? This episode speaks directly to believers looking for thoughtful, biblically grounded conversation about how to live wisely and intentionally in a noisy, demanding culture. If you're a Christian seeking to grow in wisdom, spiritual resilience, and theological depth, this conversation is for you. Subscribe now and join the discussion.DONATE LINK: https://toltogether.com/donate BOOK A SPEAKER: https://toltogether.com/book-a-speakerJOIN TOL CONNECT: https://toltogether.com/tol-connect TOL Connect is an online forum where TOL listeners can continue the conversation begun on the podcast.

My wrapping up of Reversed Thunder by Eugene Peterson, a book I've been reading recently to help my understanding of this cryptic book increase. And it has! I still have a way to go, though.

In this episode, Whitney teaches through Luke 7:36-50 about a nameless woman who responds to Jesus in an awkward but beautiful display of affection. We see a great contrast between the host, Simon the Pharisee, who demonstrates cynicism, doubt, and judgment, and the woman who pours out sacrificially at the feet of Jesus, a woman known in town only as a sinner. This brief episode touches on the ways that we attempt to make ourselves look better than we are, while challenging us to live a version of faith that expresses itself in sincere action. It offers a fresh look at repentance and pushes us to ask how our faith is known beyond the words that we speak. Social media: IG - wlscarboroughShow Notes/Quotes:“Is Whitney even your real name?”“We have a tendency to make ourselves look better than we are.”“Genuine faith reveals itself in sincere action.”“I believe that repetition as we study God's Word is one of the most helpful and important things we can do.”“Eugene Peterson, the author of the Message version of the Bible, writes, ‘the NO we say to the world's lies and the YES we say to God's truth is repentance. It is always and everywhere the first word in the Christian life.'” “I think repentance is very hard for us, because we have a tendency to make ourselves look better than we are.”“My faith and your faith will look different, but our faith needs to visibly look like something. And I believe that it probably ought to look more like a messy, awkward display of abundant gratitude to our Savior and less like a crossed arm, judgmental view of our neighbor.”“Dane Ortlund is the author of a book called Gentle and Lowly, and he writes, ‘It's the most counterintuitive aspect of Christianity, that we are declared right with God not once we begin to get our act together but once we collapse into honest acknowledgement that we never will.'” Verses:Luke 7:36-50 1 Samuel 16:7James 2:262 Chronicles 7:14

What do the Psalms, U2, and honest prayer have in common? In this powerful closing message to our Selah series, Pastor Tom reflects on Psalm 40 and the deeper meaning behind the songs we sing. Drawing from the words of Eugene Peterson and Bono, this message explores how the Psalms hold the tensions of life—joy and sorrow, victory and waiting—with raw honesty and spiritual depth.Through the lens of music, we're reminded that faith isn't a formula to solve, but a song to keep singing—especially when life doesn't go as planned. Whether you're on a high or in the pit, this message invites you to rediscover worship as an authentic expression of where you are and who God is.

Christian Science Bible Lesson read from The Message, copyright by Eugene Peterson and from 21st Century Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: A modern version of Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, copyright by Cheryl Petersenhttps://healingsciencetoday.wordpress.com/https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F6D1CCTHhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F5NT6KJ6

In possibly my last offering before September, I try to wrap up m 7 week reading of Reversed Thunder by Eugene Peterson. That being said, I may try and do a proper overview episode from my home in August.

Dr. Ryan and Dr. Matt have a conversation with Dave Ripper about his new book Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard .Bio:Dave Ripper is the lead pastor of Crossway Christian Church, a multi-congregational church in southern New Hampshire focused on spiritual formation. He earned a Doctor of Ministry in spiritual direction from Fuller Theological Seminary and the Martin Institute for Christianity and Culture and Dallas Willard Research Center at Westmont College. He's the author of “Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus: Reading the Bible like Dallas Willard and coauthor of The Fellowship of the Suffering.”About the Book:Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus offers a unique pathway to deeper spiritual engagement, using Dallas Willard's revolutionary approach to reading the Bible. More than a study tool, Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus invites you to transform your encounters with Scripture from mere information gathering to profound spiritual experiences. Using primary source material and insights from Willard, Dave Ripper takes you on an immersive exploration of Scripture that mirrors the intellect of a philosopher and the heart of a mystic.You'll find experiential exercises designed to prompt reflection and foster enriching group conversations, helping you not just to read, but to truly know the God of the Bible. Perfect for pastors, ministry leaders, and spiritual seekers shaped by voices like Eugene Peterson and Richard Foster, Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus offers a call to experience God's presence in new and vibrant ways.Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus is a valuable resource for anyone seeking to deepen their understanding and connection with Scripture as a disciple of Jesus. It offers practical tools, insights, and exercises that can be applied both individually and in group settings. By incorporating the teachings of Dallas Willard, Experiencing Scripture as a Disciple of Jesus provides a unique perspective on reading the Bible that goes beyond simple information gathering.Buy the book: https://a.co/d/4IN81Nz

In this episode, I talk about the 9th chapter of Reversed Thunder by Eugene Peterson, The Last Word On Politics.

I have a love/hate relationship with prayer. On the one hand, I find it hard to do consistently. On the other, I question its effectiveness. In this episode, I explore prayer in light of Eugene Peterson's book, Reversed Thunder, and have changed my opinions on prayer somewhat.

Anyone who believes in Jesus – is also meant to be an Ambassador of Christ. Now – that's not an easy role. Sometimes being Ambassador requires some tough talk. Other times it's about diplomacy – the question is, knowing when to call a spade a spade, and when to be more … circumspect.   It's Not a Shouting Match One of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen as a Christian – and I've seen it a few times – is some guy standing on a soapbox in a Mall or on a street corner, or as I shared a few weeks ago, at a Saturday morning market, screaming out the so called, "Good News" about Jesus Christ. Now, I'm a Christian and so I will sometimes stop and see if I can understand where they're coming from. And truly, most of the time, I just can't figure it out, but there they stand on their soapbox, with a Bible in their hands and surrounded by some pretty tacky placards normally, screaming the Gospel at people. Do I think God can use that? Sure – I mean, He seems to use the foolishness that I preach sometimes, in peoples' lives, so why not the guy on the soapbox on the street corner? Do I think, however, that it's the most effective way of dealing with the issue? Is it the best way to communicate the incredible love of God, the grace of Jesus Christ, the riches available to those who put their faith in Him? Is it the best way to share that Good News? Not by a long shot; not by a very long shot! And yet, it's easy ... it's so easy for us to imagine that telling people about Jesus is kind of like getting on that soapbox. That it's about two equal and opposite ideologies – God's and the world's – butting heads and locking horns. Over the last couple of weeks and again this week on the programme, we are having a chat about living our lives out as ambassadors of Christ; His emissaries, if you will. If I believe in Jesus; if you believe in Jesus, then one of the things that we have to do with our lives – one of the main things - is to communicate His love; to carry His love out into a lost and a hurting world. That's what the Apostle Paul said in writing to his dear friends at the church in Corinth – way back in the First Century. Second Corinthians chapter 5, verse 20: So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us. Each one in our own way, of course but otherwise, how can we possibly claim to be His ambassadors? How can God make His appeal to this world to be reconciled with Him through someone who looks nothing like Him; who sounds nothing like Him? Now, that presents us with something of a dilemma! Does me, anyhow, because what I see is that sometimes Jesus stood up and berated people – not too often, but sometimes He did. He called the religious leaders of the day "hypocrites", "a brood of vipers" and a whole bunch of other things as well. And yet other times, He dealt with people with such tender love and compassion, it kind of moves you to tears when you read about those times. Like the woman caught in adultery – you can read her story in John's Gospel chapter 8. I mean He pretty much puts Himself between her and the angry mob that wanted to stone her to death. Go figure that out!! So how do we reconcile that? How do you or I, if we want to be like Jesus, learn to speak into this world the way that He did? When do we speak with tender love and when do we stand up to be counted and call a spade and spade, no matter who it's going to offend? I guess that's kind of where we are going this week on the programme – looking at how we speak into this world like Jesus. How do we connect His message of love and forgiveness and a new and abundant life to the needs ... the often desperate needs in the lives of the people around us? Do we call a spade a spade and get right into peoples' faces or do we speak with compassion and love? And if it's both of those, how do I know when to use one and when to use the other? Now these questions, as you can imagine, are questions that I have mulled over a lot and as I look at how Jesus communicated, He only got upset ... really upset with people on a handful of occasions. In other words it was the exception rather than the norm. He didn't see His role as God in the flesh, as being one half of a shouting match most of the time. And so far as I can see, He reserved His anger for the people who should have known better; for the people who said they believed in God – the religious leaders. Have a listen – Matthew chapter 23, beginning at verse 12: All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted. But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and then when others are going in, you stop them. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross the sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. Or when He went into the temple, John chapter 2, verse 15: Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. See, the only time Jesus really got stuck in was when He encountered hypocrisy amongst the religious leaders. When they held themselves out to be clean on the outside but actually, they were filthy on the inside – when they oppressed the people who were looking for God; when the powerful stood over the weak; when the rich exploited the widow and the poor; when the judges were dishonest to the detriment of the ordinary people. You know, when Christians, at least here in Australia where I live, sometimes stand up to politicians and publicly speak out against injustice and wrongs and decisions being made and laws being passed that just aren't in the interests of the common people, like you and me, the most common response of the politicians is that Christians and church leaders should keep their noses out of politics. I couldn't disagree more! When we see wrongs and injustices – and can I say, especially when we see those things in the church; especially when we see hypocrisy amongst God's own people – I believe it's time to stand up and to say so. This isn't a clash of ideologies; it's not a slanging match or a shouting match; it's not some irrelevant joker standing on a soapbox on a street corner - because you know something? The truth … the truth rings out, clear as a bell. Sure, people with vested interests aren't going to like it. Sure, there's going to be a cost, but God's heart ... God's heart is for justice for the poor and the oppressed. And sometimes we are called to speak out. Next, we are going to have a look at the flip side of that coin – the gentle speech of the diplomat; the ambassador.   The Diplomacy of an Ambassador Let's take a look at the flip side of the coin – the diplomacy of an ambassador because Jesus used that much more than that other really direct and angry approach. Most of us, you and I, we have blind spots. In fact, the reason they are called, "blind spots" is that we can't see them. And when it comes to our own blind spots in life, what's amazing is how defensive and touchy we are about them. It's almost that we hold them to be sacred. Let's say that our blind spot is anger – that's the one we are dealing with in our lives - and we are prone to flaring up quickly and someone comes along and points it out to us. Well, they'd better watch out! Or if it's low self-esteem and someone tries to help us with it, we can crawl even further inside our shells. So how do you help someone with their blind spots? Because my blind spots – if I don't deal with them, will end up hurting you and stunting me and you know, my friend, your blind spots, if you don't deal with yours, will end up hurting the rest of us and stunting you. That's what sin does! And before we get all judgemental: Sin! Sin! What century is this guy coming from? Let me read out to you a succinct list of the sorts of things that I'm talking about – just so there's no mistake. Now, I'm reading from the Message translation which is a really contemporary translation of the Bible, written by a guy called Eugene Peterson. It's coming from Galatians chapter 5, verses 19 to 21. Have a listen to what God calls sin: "It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; trinket gods; magic show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on,” writes Paul. “This isn't the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit the kingdom of God." Now, you don't have to be a rocket scientist here to figure out that the sort of things that God calls "sin", which Paul is talking about here – they are exclusively the things that cause us and other people pain. And the thing that we want to do when someone's sin is causing us pain is we want to give them what for – we want to tell them exactly what we think about them and hold them to account and, if needs be, have a shouting match with them and get our own way – we do! Because what we are driven by is desire to stop our pain. What we are driven by is "wanting" to win. But here's the thing: if what we want to do is to live our lives as ambassadors of Christ then we need to handle these incredibly difficult issues, with His wisdom. And time and time again, when Jesus encountered people whose sin was ruining their lives, He dealt with them with such incredible compassion. Tax collectors back in Jesus day were a really grubby lot – they were dishonest, they rorted the system, they applied extortion and this behaviour was sanctioned by the Romans who occupied Israel – so long as the Emperor got his taxes! So, by the common Israelite, they were despised; they were considered to be the worst sinners of all; they were traitors and turncoats. Let me read you some of Jesus wisdom and how He handled them. Matthew chapter 9, verses 9 to 13 – if you have a Bible, grab it, open it up – Matthew chapter 9, verses 9 to 13: As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth; and he said to him, “Follow me.” And so, he got up and followed Jesus. And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why is it that your teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard this, Jesus said, “Those who are well don't need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come to call not the righteous but the sinners." See, you and I, when we see people whose sin offends us or hurts us; when we are on the receiving end of their sin, the thing we want to do, naturally – it's a natural human response – is to cut them off; to cut them out of our lives. That way we are protected; that way we don't have to deal with them; that way we don't have to deal with the pain that they cause in our lives. But what Jesus is saying here is that it was precisely for these people; these sinners; these rejects, that He came and so He went and ate a meal in that house. Here He was, this veritably rock star – huge crowds were following Him - He comes into town, He decides to go and eat with what – the Mayor, the Governor, the church leaders, the synagogue leaders, the bishops? No, no – the tax collectors! Do you see this huge ... huge symbolic act that was going on here? He knew that it would do two things. That He would draw vocal criticism from the religious leaders and He'd also confer honour upon the sinners. And by conferring honour on them, He was building a relationship with them. He was accepting them just as they were; without a word of condemnation or judgement. And my hunch is that that completely changed their attitude towards Him. You know something? They had their blind spots – they were rationalising away their extortion and dishonesty and if Jesus had come and berated them or condemned them or ignored them, nothing would have changed in their lives. Instead He came and ate with them and drank with them and listened to them and took the criticism that everyone else heaped upon Him for doing that – and He built a bridge by honouring them. And so powerful was this that one of them, Matthew, became one of His disciples. He wrote the first Book of the New Testament. You want to be an ambassador of Christ – then we need to learn the language of an ambassador? Being an ambassador, as we saw on last weeks programme, about building relationships and bridges, so that when there are difficult issues that have to be dealt with, there is already a connection of relationship and trust in place, through which to deal with the problem. Think about it – who are the people in your life to whom you give a licence to talk to you about your blind spots? I know who they are in my life – it's the people who have honoured me and stuck with me and who've proven themselves to be wise and trustworthy. They're the ones with that licence! And as I look back, it was through those people – people just like that; people who had eaten with this sinner; loved this sinner; coped with my sins – it was through those very people that I encountered the transforming love of Jesus Christ. They were His ambassadors in my life. They treated me the way He treated those tax collectors and friend, without them I wouldn't be with you here right now. It makes you think.   Preaching with our Ears Today and over these last few weeks on the programme we have been chatting about what it means to be an ambassador of Christ; to live our lives - if we believe in Jesus - as one of His ambassadors. Remember, the Apostle Paul – Second Corinthians chapter 5, verse 20 writes: So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ, to be reconciled to God. Now, one of the things that strikes me is how strong differences are across cultures. We've had a man recently join our team here at Christianityworks – his name is Gregory. Now you may or may not have known this but we Australians are fairly direct in the way we speak. Americans on the other hand, are less so – we often joke about that. Gregory will ask where the bathroom is, whereas I'll ask where the toilet is. So we Australians are much more direct. But even more than that, Gregory grew up; spent many of his childhood years in Japan, and so he has a lot of Japanese culture on the inside too – a culture that's very much about politeness and face. And even though we have known each other for a very long time, working together now every day has been a real learning experience for both of us. When I ask him what he thinks, I want him to actually tell me what he thinks. If he thinks I'm off with the pixies on some issue, I actually want him to tell me so. Forget hierarchies – I just want his direct, honest input because that's how we will get the right results. He, on the other hand, can find that just a bit confronting because that's not the cultural background that he's come from. It's just one simple example but it's a good one. Imagine if I, as direct as I am, were sent as Australia's ambassador to the U.S. or even more so, to Japan. I'd have to learn a lot about their cultures before I could communicate effectively on a diplomatic level with those countries. I'd have to find different ways of saying things I want to say. I'd have to listen carefully to what their diplomats were saying to make sure I actually hear what they mean to say. You know something? Sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ with the people around us is no different to that. After fifteen years of walking with Jesus, I have a whole different perspective on what success is, what joy is, what happiness is, what sin is, what pain is – and all sorts of things, from someone who has never met Jesus – from someone who doesn't have that relationship with Jesus. Why would I ever imagine I could talk to them as though they have the same perspective as me? You know, for a long, long time in my life, I just wasn't ready for anyone to tell me about this Jesus. I mean, get lost! I couldn't stand those God botherers. I had a totally different perspective to theirs. I just knew that life was about making lots of money and being recognised in my field and being successful. I knew I'd find my pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. I had, back then, a whole bunch of misconceptions about life and where I wanted to be headed and what would make me happy. And I didn't need anyone to preach at me - least of all those God botherers telling me about Jesus. What I needed was someone to listen to me – what I needed was someone to understand me and help me to understand myself. I needed someone to preach to me with their ears – if that makes sense. An ambassador from one country who is about to be sent to another country has to learn about the culture and the language and the issues and the aspirations and the concerns of the country to which he or she is being sent. Someone who lives in one country and is going to be a missionary in another country, well, they have to do exactly the same. I believe the most important asset an ambassador can have are his ears and his eyes – to observe, to perceive, to listen, to see, to understand. Jesus grew up in the Hebrew culture of First Century Israel. He attended school in that culture. He knew how to speak and He had a lot of time listening. He spent time eating and drinking with tax collectors; with sinners. He spent time living with His disciples. He spent time getting to know the issues in peoples' lives. I remember when I was working in a retail buying group – quite some years ago. The chairman of our board was a man called Stan Brown – he owned a menswear store in Sydney. I remember him saying that a shop attendant who walks up to a customer and opens up with, "Can I help you?" well, he'd say it's like asking someone to marry you on the first date. First he said, you need to find out who they are, why are they here, why did they come into your store, what's their taste, what are they looking for? First you have to find a point of connection, he said, then ... then they'll be open to receive any help. As I look at people who God brought to me; the ambassadors whom He sent in my direction when I needed to meet Him, what I realise, is that they, for the most part, preached with their ears – they listened, they understood, they laughed, they cried with me and once they understood – once I really knew they understood – then I relaxed. Then I let them into my thoughts and into my heart – then they were allowed to influence me because they got me. Then they had the opportunity to show me who this Jesus really, really is. The stock-in-trade of an ambassador is diplomacy. It's about trust and communication and understanding and if you and I ... if you and I are going to be ambassadors of Jesus Christ, then that's something I believe we are going to have to learn. When I take the time to get to know you and understand you – whether or not I agree, I have just built a bridge into your life that honours you. When you feel understood, you feel secure and you experience trust and it's exactly the same back in the other direction. Friend, Jesus was an amazing communicator – He was prepared to confront the difficult issues when they needed to be confronted and He was prepared to show compassion because that's what flowed out of His heart to people in need. And it was that bridge of compassion that we can build with people. That's the bridge that, one day, Jesus will walk across. Trust me, that's the bridge and it all comes from preaching with our ears. Go figure!

Contemporary Christian Science Bible Study read from The Message, copyright by Eugene Peterson and from 21st Century Science and Heath with Key to the Scriptures: A modern version of Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, copyright by Cheryl Petersenhttps://healingsciencetoday.wordpress.com/https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F5NT6KJ6

In this third episode about "Reversed Thunder", Eugene Peterson's work on Revelation, we meet the four famous horses: War, Famine, Pestilence, and the White Horse of Christ, Fathful, True and Righteous. These horses are not equal, nor are they on the same side. Three are evil, one is good. I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which.

In this episode of Tell Me More, hosts Katy Reed Hodges and Luke Stehr speak with guest Curt Grice about Sunday's sermon by Dennis R. Wiles at First Baptist Arlington. The discussion centers on the sermon "Flourishing Formation: Seek God's Kingdom!" based on Matthew 6:25-34.The conversation examines Pastor Wiles' use of metamorphosis as a conceptual framework for spiritual formation. The hosts and guest analyze the sermon's main points regarding transformation in Christian life, addressing the questions of identity and purpose in spiritual development.Topics covered include the prohibition against worry, the practice of seeking God's kingdom as a priority, and the promise of divine provision. The discussion references theological perspectives from Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson, and John Mark Comer on spiritual formation and discipleship.The episode provides factual information about the contrast between cultural approaches to life and the alternative path of following Jesus. Listeners will hear an analysis of what it means to be "formed, conformed, and transformed" as disciples according to the sermon text.

Description: Today, we're revisiting a pivotal conversation that changed the course of Jen's life and career. In 2016, during what was expected to be a routine interview with journalist Jonathan Merritt, Jen found herself speaking publicly for the first time about her views on abortion, politics, and LGBTQ+ issues—beliefs she had been wrestling with privately for over a year. While she was confident in her answers, she was unprepared for the backlash that followed. In this encore episode, Jen and Jonathan reflect on that moment and its ripple effects. Jonathan shares his own parallel journey—growing up as the son of a megachurch pastor, internalizing the “love the sinner, hate the sin” message, and later confronting his own identity as a gay man. His story, like Jen's, became public in ways he never expected, leading him on a path of deeper truth, faith, and purpose. Thought-provoking Quotes: “You told the truth. You were ready for this interview. You had actually been doing the work for a decade to be ready to answer those questions honestly. But, your PR wasn't ready.” – Amy Hardin “The best way to live is true. No matter what you think it will cost or what it does cost you, the cost is worth the reward.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Religion News Service - https://religionnews.com/about-rns/ Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, gay marriage and more by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/jen-hatmaker-trump-black-lives-matter-gay-marriage Growing Up Evangelical and Gay with Jonathan Merritt - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-63/growing-up-evangelical-and-gay-with-jonathan-merritt/ My Saddest Good Friday in Memory: When Treasured Things are Dead - https://jenhatmaker.com/my-saddest-good-friday-in-memory-when-treasured-things-are-dead/ Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/love-is-the-game-changer-of-our-faith-bishop-michael-curry/ How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/how-to-create-a-politics-of-love-lisa-sharon-harper/ Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/christian-rock-star-admits-hes-gay-writes-letter-to-fans?rq=trey%20pearson Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/eugene-peterson-changing-mind-sex-issues-marriage?rq=eugene Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/leading-evangelical-ethicist-now-pro-lgbt?rq=david A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars – Jonathan Merritt -  Dr. Michael Lindsay,  Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile James Martin, Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/ Guest's Links: Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt Twitter - https://x.com/JonathanMerritt Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JonathanMerrittWriter Substack - https://jonathanmerritt.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I begin by doing a poor job reporting what I've read this week of Reversed Thunder by Eugene Peterson and then move on to some christological thoughts on the Love of Jesus which leads to transformation and salvation.

Christian Science Bible Lesson read from The Message, copyright by Eugene Peterson and from 21st Century Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures: A modern version of Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, copyright by Cheryl Petersenhttps://healingsciencetoday.wordpress.com/

Pentecost Sunday 2025 6-8-25 "The work of the Spirit is to impart life, to implant hope, to give liberty, to testify of Christ, to guide us to all truth, to teach us all things, to comfort the believer, and to convict the world of sin.” D.L. Moody Acts 1:4-8 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized withwater, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” 6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Acts 2:1-4 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Creation Exodus Jesus Pentecost When the Holy Spirit Comes: 1. You Will Receive Power "The Christian life is not meant to be lived dryly or wearily, but to be a life of overflowing water and rushing wind, filled with the presence of God." - Jon Tyson & Suzy Silk "God's Spirit continues to hover over the chaos of the world's evil and our sin and shapes a new creation and new creatures. Pentecost means that God is not a spectator, in turn amused and alarmed at world history; rather, he is a participant. Pentecost means that the invisible is more important the the visible, at any single moment and at any single event we choose to examine. Pentecost means that everything, especially everything that looks to us like wreckage, is material God is using to make a praising life." - Eugene Peterson When the Holy Spirit Comes: 1. You Will Receive Power 2. You Will Be My Witnesses "Many Jews longed for a new event in which the divine glory would fill Israels's Temple once more... The wind and fire of Pentecost answers to this expectation, indicating that now the Temple is a community, not a building. The church, as the spirit filled Temple of God, goes into the world with the fresh wind and fire, living out its vocation to be a light to the nations, burning ever more brightly. " - NT Wright "If I were to define what for me makes up the core Pentecostal identity it is the lived conviction that everything, absolutely everything, in the scriptures is livable. Not just true, but livable. Not just an idea or a cause, but livable in real life. Everything that is revealed in Jesus and the scriptures, the gospel, is there to be lived by ordinary Christians in ordinary times." - Eugene Peterson

Teacher: Dave Brown Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.—1 Samuel 18:7; 21:11 Saul was very angry; “they have credited David with tens of thousand,” he though, ‘but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom?” And from that time on Saul kept a close eye on David.— 1 Samuel 18:8-9 David went to Nob, to Ahimelek the priest. Ahimelek trembled when he met him, and asked, “Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?” David answered Ahimelek the priest, “The king sent me on a mission and said to me, ‘No one is to know anything about the mission I am sending you on.' As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place.”— 1 Samuel 21:1-2 The king ordered Doeg, “You turn and strike down the priests.” So Does the Edomite turned and killed eighty-five men who wore the linen ephod. He also put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests, with its men and women, its children and infants, and its cattle, donkeys and sheep.— 1 Samuel 22:18-19 But one son of Ahimelek…named Abiathar, escaped and fled to join David. He told David that Saul had killed the priests of the Lord, Then David said to Abiathar, “That day, when Doeg the Edomite was there, I knew he would be sure to tell Saul. I am responsible for the death of your whole family.— 1 Samuel 22:20-22 If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.— John 15:18-20 The story of David isn't set before us as a moral model to copy. David isn't a person whose actions we're inspired to imitate. In the company of David we don't feel inadequate because we know we could never do it that well. Just the opposite; in the company of David we find someone who does it as badly as, or worse than, we do, but who in the process doesn't quit, doesn't withdraw from God.— Eugene Peterson God's will for our lives can be divided into two parts: 1 - General will — Loving God and loving others 2 - Specific will — “The place were your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.” David isn't an ideal life bit an actual life. We imaginatively enter the company of David not to improve our morals but to deepen our sense of human reality: this is what happens in the grand enterprise of being human. Reentering through my believing imagination the world of David, I'm more myself—free to be myself and able find God in the middle of what's going on right now.— Eugene Peterson

"Our unimpressive, very ordinary lives make us feel like outsiders to such a star studded cast. We disqualify ourselves. Guilt or willfulness or accident makes a loophole and we assume that what is true for everyone else is not true for us. We conclude that we are, somehow, just not religious and thus unfit to participate in the big story.And then we turn a page and come on this small story of two widows and a farmer in their out-of-the-way village." Eugene Peterson, Introduction to Ruth

Revelation 14 breaks in like a cosmic alarm, interrupting the chaos of empire with heaven's final word. In this message, Pastor Darren Rouanzoin unpacks how God's mercy confronts idolatry, political deception, and religious compromise with truth and justice.We'll explore:• What the mark of the beast really means and how it's shaping people today• Why Revelation 14 isn't about fear, but about urgent mercy• What the three angels reveal about allegiance, worship, and judgment• The two end-time harvests and how your daily life is forming your eternal futureWith wisdom from Michael Gorman, Eugene Peterson, Richard Bauckham, Darrell Johnson, and G.K. Beale, this teaching invites us to ask:Are you becoming like the Lamb or like the beast?

Eugene Peterson's shock on going from academia to the pulpit, and his solution to encouraging more Bible reading.

There are many ways God speaks to us, but our bodies, which He created and called "good" is one of those ways. And yet, we often ignore the signals our bodies give us. Our body is where the Spirit resides (I Corinthians 6:19). As Barbara Brown Taylor says, "....trust the body to enlighten the soul." What if we stop to ask what God is trying to tell us through our body's signals and functions? Quotes from: Eugene Peterson, Barbara Brown Taylor, Celeste Snowber Schroeder (Embodied Prayer), Tara Owens, and Jan Richardson (The Sanctuary of Women).For more information on integrative spiritual practices, go to breatheandbe.net.

"Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it." — Proverbs 13:11This verse offers a powerful lesson on financial stewardship—true and lasting wealth isn't built through shortcuts or speculation but through steady diligence and faithful management. In today's fast-paced world, financial success is often measured by how quickly one can accumulate wealth. Social media is filled with stories of overnight millionaires, high-risk investments, and shortcuts to riches. But is this the right approach? Let's explore how this biblical principle plays out in real life.The Temptation of Instant WealthTo illustrate this principle, let's look at the real-life story of an executive at a major Western bank—we'll call him Brian to protect his anonymity.Brian began his finance career in the 1990s, confident in his ability to manage money. However, he now admits that he was living beyond his means and accumulating debt. This financial instability made him especially susceptible to the allure of quick wealth, particularly during the height of the dot-com boom in the early 2000s.When a coworker offered him a chance to get in on the ground floor of a "can't lose" tech startup, Brian didn't hesitate. He scraped together $10,000, convinced he was on the fast track to wealth. In his mind, success was inevitable—he was already preparing to celebrate.But before he could, Brian heard the sound of the dot-com bubble bursting. His investment vanished, lost in a company he knew little about. He had chased quick wealth only to face the painful consequences.His story echoes the warning of Proverbs 28:20:"A faithful man will abound with blessings, but whoever hastens to be rich will not go unpunished."The Consequences of Chasing Quick WealthIt's important to understand that God doesn't sit around waiting to punish people for making bad financial choices. Instead, He may allow those poor decisions to lead to their natural consequences. Proverbs 13:11 teaches that when money is gained too quickly—whether through reckless speculation, gambling, or unethical shortcuts—it often lacks a foundation of wisdom and discipline, making it easy to lose.1 Timothy 6:9-10 warns:"Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."Many people experience financial hardship because they prioritize speed over stewardship. But God has a better way.The Power of Slow, Faithful GrowthIf Proverbs 13:11 warns against hasty wealth, it also points us to a better way:"Whoever gathers little by little will increase it."This principle isn't flashy, but it's powerful. True financial growth happens gradually through wisdom, patience, and discipline.Rather than seeking quick riches, God calls us to:Work diligently and earn honestly (Colossians 3:23).Save and invest wisely over time (Proverbs 21:20).Be generous and steward money for His purposes (2 Corinthians 9:6-7).Financial success isn't about speed—it's about faithfulness over time. Or, as the late Eugene Peterson put it so well, it's about “long obedience in the same direction.”Brian's Financial RedemptionBrian's story didn't end with financial ruin. Instead of giving up, he decided to take a biblical money management class through his church. That's when things started to turn around.He learned to be more disciplined with his finances—budgeting, saving, and living within his means. Eventually, he began investing again, but this time, he avoided speculation and focused on something he understood: real estate. He started small, took his time, and remained patient.Because he wisely managed his investments, his real estate holdings survived the housing crash and the Great Recession. Over time, he even started a fitness-related business with his son—something he had always dreamed of. That business survived the challenges of COVID-19 and is still thriving today.Brian's financial recovery wasn't instant. It was the result of steady, faithful growth over many years. His story is a testament to the wisdom of Proverbs 13:11—building wealth little by little often leads to long-term success.If you've experienced financial setbacks, don't lose heart. The key is to keep moving forward. The world promotes shortcuts, but God calls us to faithfulness. If we embrace patience, diligence, and godly stewardship, we'll not only experience financial security but also the joy of honoring Him with our resources.So, instead of chasing instant success, let's follow God's way—one wise step at a time.On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions:I received a notice from my bank about an arbitration provision and class action waiver for dispute resolution by individual arbitration. What does this even mean?I'm doing a remodel because my husband has Parkinson's, and I need to modify the bathroom to accommodate him. The bathroom renovation will cost about $25,000 to $30,000. Should I take the money from my 401(k), or would it be better to use funds from my home, which has been paid off for about seven years?My wife had open heart surgery at the end of 2023, and due to her portable bypass, she's unable to work continuously. I want to build retirement savings for her through a Roth IRA. I know I can open a spousal IRA for her since I'm working, but I'm concerned about whether this might affect her current disability benefits.I'm 65 and considering retirement in a couple of years. My friends suggest I take Social Security now, but I'm wondering about the best strategy. I'm currently 67 and don't need the money right now. Should I take Social Security now, wait until my full retirement age, or wait until I'm 70 to get a higher benefit? What are the investment implications of each option?Resources Mentioned:Faithful Steward: FaithFi's New Quarterly MagazineMovement MortgageSSA.gov (Social Security Administration)Wisdom Over Wealth: 12 Lessons from Ecclesiastes on Money (Pre-Order)Look At The Sparrows: A 21-Day Devotional on Financial Fear and AnxietyRich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich FoolFind a Certified Kingdom Advisor (CKA) or Certified Christian Financial Counselor (CertCFC)FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions most days at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on the Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. Visit our website at FaithFi.com where you can join the FaithFi Community and give as we expand our outreach.

First It Giveth. In this episode, we discuss Jonah's vocation, gospel imagination, dogmatic materialism, spell casting, the contemporary effects of the Industrial Revolution, and God's preference for wasted places while reading Eugene Peterson's Under the Unpredictable Plant: An Exploration in Vocational Holiness. SHOW NOTES:  Eugene H. Peterson (1932–2018) was a longtime pastor and professor of spiritual theology at Regent College, Vancouver, British Columbia. His many acclaimed books include Tell It Slant, The Jesus Way, Eat This Book, and the contemporary translation of the Bible titled The Message.   Under the Unpredictable Plant: An Exploration in Vocational Holiness https://amzn.to/4iOyIbR  Conservations with Rev. Eugene H. Peterson (2015) https://www.doxology.us/return-to-conversations-with-rev-eugene-h-peterson/   More from 1517: Support 1517 Podcast Network: https://www.1517.org/donate-podcasts 1517 Podcasts: http://www.1517.org/podcasts 1517 on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChDdMiZJv8oYMJQQx2vHSzg 1517 Podcast Network on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/channel/1517-podcast-network/id6442751370 1517 Events Schedule: https://www.1517.org/events 1517 Academy - Free Theological Education: https://academy.1517.org/   What's New from 1517: The Impossible Prize: A Theology of Addiction by Donavan Riley: https://shop.1517.org/products/9781962654708-the-impossible-prize Ditching the Checklist by Mark Mattes: https://shop.1517.org/products/9781962654791-ditching-the-checklist Broken Bonds: A Novel of the Reformation, Book 1 of 2 by Amy Mantravadi: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1962654753?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_FCNEEK60MVNVPCEGKBD8_5&starsLeft=1   More from the hosts: Donovan Riley https://www.1517.org/contributors/donavon-riley  Christopher Gillespie https://www.1517.org/contributors/christopher-gillespie   MORE LINKS: Tin Foil Haloes https://t.me/bannedpastors Warrior Priest Gym & Podcast https://thewarriorpriestpodcast.wordpress.com   St John's Lutheran Church (Webster, MN) - FB Live Bible Study Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/356667039608511  Donavon's Substack https://donavonlriley.substack.com Gillespie's Substack https://substack.com/@christophergillespie  Gillespie's Sermons and Catechesis http://youtube.com/stjohnrandomlake  Gillespie Coffee https://gillespie.coffee   Gillespie Media https://gillespie.media     CONTACT and FOLLOW: Email mailto:BannedBooks@1517.org  Facebook https://www.facebook.com/BannedBooksPod/  Twitter https://twitter.com/bannedbooks1517   SUBSCRIBE: YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@BannedBooks Rumble https://rumble.com/c/c-1223313  Odysee https://odysee.com/@bannedbooks:5 Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/banned-books/id1370993639  Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/2ahA20sZMpBxg9vgiRVQba  Overcast https://overcast.fm/itunes1370993639/banned-books 

255. Redeeming Our Time with Jordan Raynor   “But as for you, be strong and do not lose courage, for there is reward for your work.” 2 Chronicles 15:7 AMP   **Transcription Below**   Jordan Raynor is a leading voice of the faith and work movement. Through his bestselling books (The Sacredness of Secular Work, Redeeming Your Time, The Creator in You, and The Royal in You.), keynote speeches, podcasts, and devotionals, Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on earth connect the gospel to their work.    In addition to his writing and speaking, Jordan serves as the Executive Chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup which Jordan previously ran as CEO following a string of successful ventures of his own.    Questions and Topics We Cover: 1. What does it look like, practically, to live on earth as it is in Heaven? 2. From your time studying of the Bible, do you find a difference in how our call to work applies to both men and women?  3. What are some ways we can pass along this wisdom to our children?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships  with Joey Odom Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee Fruitful with Laura Dugger Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Cultivate What Matters in 2021 with Emily Thomas Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons Divine Productivity with Matt Perman Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   [00:00:00]   Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    [00:00:18]   Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.    I am pleased to get to introduce you to my guest, author, speaker, entrepreneur, Jesus lover, and family man, Jordan Raynor. We're going to discuss what God's word has to say about topics such as the afterlife and then what that means now for how we spend our time and what work we get to do both as men and women.   Jordan is a content producer and much of our conversation today is a follow-up to one of his books entitled, Redeeming Your Time: 7 Biblical Principles for Being Purposeful, Present, and Wildly Productive. [00:01:31]    Here's our chat.    Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jordan.   Jordan Raynor: Laura, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: Well, it is truly my pleasure. I'd love just to begin here. How did you find your way into the work that you get to do today?   Jordan Raynor: I spent the majority of my career as a tech entrepreneur. I still have a foot in that world as executive chairman of the last company that I ran, but I spent 10 years full-time as a tech startup CEO.    I was in the process of exiting my second company when this kind of all started for me. So, you know, when you sell two companies, the natural thing to do is go start a third. So that was kind of the plan.    But for a hot minute there, my wife and I were really seriously thinking about planting a church. Why? Because I went to church often feeling this guilt that I think a lot of believers have felt of, Man, how dare I want to go to work and build a business tomorrow when there's a need for people to serve as pastors and move to mud huts 5,000 miles away from home to make disciples. [00:02:39]    So we're praying about these two paths: start another business, plan a church. One week after church, this mentor of mine pulled me aside. He's like, "Hey, I heard you're thinking about planting a church."    And I'm thinking this guy's going to pat me on the back, maybe write me my first check. He just looks me dead in the eyes, is like, "Yeah, I got to be honest, it sounds really dumb for you." Like, personally, I was like, "Oh, okay. Tell me more." He's like, "Listen, Jordan, you're a talented entrepreneur. You've served your customers and your team members and your investors with excellence. Why do you think you have to plant a church to do ministry? Don't you get that your work as an entrepreneur is ministry?"   I was like, "Yeah, no, I get it. I build these companies so I can write big checks to the missionaries, picture on my refrigerator, or share the gospel with my team members." He's like, "Yeah, but like so much more than that." I was like, "I have no idea what you're talking about."    So he's like, "Here's what I want you to do with this conversation, the background of your mind, I want you to read Genesis one and two." [00:03:39] And I'm thinking, "I've read Genesis one, two, five hundred times. What am I going to say? It's new."   But Laura, what I saw changed my life forever. I saw that before God tells us that He is loving or holy or omnipotent, He tells us that He is a God who works and creates. It's literally the first verb in the Bible. It's the only thing we know about God's character until Genesis 1:26, well, God says, let us make humankind in our image. Why? So that they may rule and work like God did long before the great commission to make disciples.    In Genesis 1, we see this first commission that God never once retracts for you and I to make culture. And that just stopped me dead in my tracks. So long story short, I did not go plant a church. I went and ran somebody else's company. But it set me on this search to really understand how the church's theology of work has gotten so, so lost. [00:04:38]    And it's led to the work I do today, which is creating a whole lot of content through books and podcasts and whatever, helping Christians understand the biblical story of work and God's plan for work from Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22 and respond to that truth in practical ways in how they do their work outside and inside of the home today.   Laura Dugger: Wow. Okay. So definitely want to talk about work, but then even zooming out bigger picture of our time, that some of the content that you've written about, and I'm specifically thinking about redeeming your time. So what would you say, Jordan, is one of your biggest cautions for us to consider, especially as it relates to ways that are culturally acceptable to spend our time, but they're not eternally wise ways to spend our time?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, it's a really good question. [00:05:36] I think maybe the most significant one though is not where we spend it but how we spend it. I think culture outside of the church largely views time as a means of glorifying self, of pleasing self, of accumulating experiences and leisure.   It's the whole bucket list mentality, right? The purpose of your time now is to do it all because this is your only chance to do everything you want to do. And that's a deeply unbiblical lie that I think is one of Satan's favorites to peddle to believers and non-believers alike.   And so I think as believers, the gospel ought to compel us to not just manage our time for profit and for pleasure, but to redeem the time, as Paul says in Ephesians 5:15-16, to eternal ends, to things that are eternal.    And yes, that means souls, but it means way more than souls. I think a lot of times when we think about eternal uses of our time, we think exclusively in that bucket of evangelism. And Jesus didn't. [00:06:36] In fact, He spent 80% of His adult life swinging a hammer and making excellent tables and chairs. He spent time turning water into good wine and pursuing justice in the world and beauty in the world.    And I think all of that matters to God. I think all of that can be an eternally significant use of our time if, if, and this is the big IF, we're doing all those things with Christ-like love and compassion and excellence and in accordance with God's good and perfect word.   Laura Dugger: I guess you're starting to answer this, but I'm thinking then of the flip side of that question. What would you say are ways that God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that we could spend hours and hours and hours answering that question. I think we got to be clear though on what we mean by that term "heaven". [00:07:35] Because for the first time in church history, for the last 200 or 300 years or so, Christians, when they hear that word heaven, think almost exclusively about the present heaven, this amorphous, disembodied souls floating on clouds, which was not the hope of Jesus, it was not the ultimate hope of the writers of the New Testament.    God did not promise to fit us for heaven to dwell with Him there, as we sing every Christmas. He promised heaven on earth and to dwell with us here. See Revelation 21 and 22. And that's the "on earth" part.   So when we expand our thinking beyond heaven is only this place that disembodied souls go to in the future and we understand heaven as a state of affairs that is breaking into the present — Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand — I think it greatly expands our vision of what it means to work in ways and manage our time in ways where God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven. [00:08:32]    Yes, that means making disciples as we go about the work that God has given us to do. Yes, it means discipling our kids within our homes. But it also means cultivating beauty in the world. Because Revelation 21 says that when we do, we are scratching off a glimpse of the day when beauty will reign supreme over the face of the earth.   It means doing work with excellence, because Isaiah 60 tells us there are works of cultural excellence present on the new earth, which boggles the minds of many people, right?    So I think the definition is really, really broad of what that means to do our work on earth as it is in heaven. But the key is love. The key is, out of looking at the cross and understanding the love that God has shown us in Christ, letting that love overflow out of our hearts and spill into everything we do, whether we eat or drink or whatever it is that we spend our time doing, to riff off of Paul in 1 Corinthians 10. "Do it all for the glory of God."  [00:09:36]    What's his glory? The perfect love of His Son. When we're modeling that, that's what I think it means to bring heaven to earth, as Jesus calls us to do.   Laura Dugger: Okay, so expand our understanding, though, because I know you've been on a journey learning about heaven here on earth. What are some findings and realizations that you've made as you've studied scripture?   Jordan Raynor: Number one, nobody, including Jesus Christ, is going to spend eternity in heaven. If what we mean by heaven is the present heaven, where, God forbid, if I die in the plane that I'm about to go on tonight, I will be with Jesus in the present heaven. Nobody's going to spend eternity in that heaven. Read Revelation 21, read Isaiah 60 through 65, it makes that abundantly clear.    Number two, contrary to our American caricature of heaven as a glorified retirement home, Isaiah 65 says, starting in verse 17, God says, "See, I'll create new heavens and a new earth. My chosen people will build houses and dwell in them, and they will long enjoy the work of their hands." [00:10:39]    So, number one, nobody's going to spend eternity in heaven. Number two, on the new earth, we will worship by singing yes, but also by working with our hands alongside the risen Christ. And then I would say, you know, number three, I think what I'm learning more and more is we tend to think of heaven exclusively as a place that we go to in the future. And that is true in a sense, right?    But it's also, as I said before, this state of affairs that's relevant and breaking into the present, breaking into our homes, breaking into our communities. The good news of the gospel is not that I sit around and wait to go to heaven when I die. The good news of the gospel is that I get to partner with Jesus in cultivating heaven on earth until I die, and He returns with heaven in hand to finish the work, right? [00:11:36]    So I think as we expand our vision beyond these half-truths about heaven that secular and, frankly, church culture have been peddling for years, with the whole truths that we see in Scripture, it vastly expands our purpose in the present as we seek to redeem our time. And I also think it expands our hope for the future, because a future with Christ where He has truly made all things new and I get to long enjoy the work of my hands with Him is way more exciting to me, and way more importantly, way more biblical than endless harps and hammocks in the clouds. Way more exciting.   Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And then if you'd have to say what that means for us now, like on a regular Thursday afternoon, can you make it really practical?    Jordan Raynor: Yeah. I think it means, number one, you can have a whole lot more purpose in your work and feel much more alive doing the work, whether that's changing diapers or making widgets on your computer. [00:12:37] Because, listen, if earth is our temporary home, as Carrie Underwood likes to say — I love you, Carrie Underwood. I do — then matter doesn't matter, right? Like matter doesn't matter. And my work with matter doesn't matter.   And if that's true, less than 1% of my time matters for eternity. Because I'm willing to bet that our listeners spend less than 1% of their time on spiritual work like evangelism and prayer. But if earth will one day be our perfect and permanent home, then matter has to matter greatly to God. And my spiritual and super material and earthly work has to matter. And if that's true, then 100% of my time matters for eternity. And so what's the response?   I love that you brought up redeeming your time. Redeeming your time is the response. If 100% of my time matters for eternity, I have greater hope for the future, I have greater purpose in the present, and I'm much more motivated to redeem all of my time, to look at every single one of my minutes that I have living in this age as opportunities to glorify God and make things matter in the grand scheme of eternity because I understand that it does matter, and it's not all going to burn up in the end. [00:13:46]    So that's one of the practical responses. We can get uber, uber practical, talking about redeeming your time and how exactly to do that. But at a theological level, if you hold to this idea that earth is our temporary home, you're really saying that 99.9% of your time doesn't matter in the grand scheme of eternity. That's deeply depressing. And praise God, it's also deeply unbiblical.   Laura Dugger: Okay. So a few follow-up questions with that then as well. So all of this matters and is eternally valuable and valuable in this moment. What about our choices then where you could be numbing out on Netflix all night or Instagram or whatever social media, or pouring excellence into the work that you're doing or your family or something more significant. What's the difference between those two options if everything matters?   Jordan Raynor: Everything has the opportunity to matter. Everything matters in the sense that God's going to judge every minute that we spend. [00:14:48] But listen, you could have two people with the exact same job, exact same stage of life, and one of them is wasting it in the grand scheme of eternity.   It matters in the sense that God's going to count it. But we can certainly make our lives matter more for eternity based on how we steward those minutes. Christians have lost this doctrine that Paul makes very clear that every single minute we spend in this life will be judged. Our soul will not be judged. Our soul has been judged (past tense) based on what Christ did on the cross. Praise God, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.   But every believer will stand before the beam of seed of judgment to give an account for how we live this life. And those of us who wasted this life binging Netflix infinitely, you're still going to enter the kingdom of heaven if you were trusting in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins. But don't expect a whole lot of rewards when you show up there, right?   The ones who are going to be awarded with treasures in heaven that Jesus talked about, with crowns, with increased job responsibilities on the new earth, see the parable of the minas, are those of us who, like Paul, expended ourselves, spent with all the energy we have to make Christ known in what we make and how we do it and how we live our lives and how we do our work. [00:16:01] That's a response, is to get off of the couch and to get in the game of scratching off glimpses of heaven on earth in the present.   Laura Dugger: I love that. Yes and amen. Somebody previously on The Savvy Sauce called me spicy for asking questions like this. I don't intend it in a controversial way.   Jordan Raynor: Listen, if we're not going to talk about these things, why talk about anything at all? I love spicy questions. Come on.   Laura Dugger: Okay. So I would just love to hear your perspective, Jordan, especially because you have immersed yourself in the word of God and obviously you have the Spirit of God living inside you as well. So when you've wrestled with these ideas, do you find a difference in how this applies to men and women? And I'm specifically thinking about Genesis and work. And I can ask some more follow-up questions, but what would you say to that?   Jordan Raynor: Oh man, I love this question. [00:17:00] I don't get asked this question very much. Listen, is there a distinction? Sure. But not much of one. Adam and Eve were both called to work the garden and to take care of it as partners together in Genesis 1 and 2.    There are tons of women throughout scripture who are celebrated for their engagement in the first commission to fill the earth, so do it and rule. I think maybe the most poignant of them is Luke chapter 8. Luke chapter 8 says, name specific women who were, quote, "helping to support them —it's referring to Jesus and His disciples — out of their own means," end quote.    And based on what we know about Mary Magdalene and some of these other characters. I don't think they had means before they followed Jesus. So the implication is these women went to work, creating value in the marketplace to support Jesus and His followers. [00:18:00]    So all throughout scripture... I'll give you one more. Gosh. You want a case study that celebrates working women? Just go read the book of Exodus, right? Exodus 1 starts with Pharaoh who's looking around and fearful of these Hebrew boys. Why? Because he wasn't afraid of Hebrew girls because they represented no threat to him, right? He's like, Ah, no, it's the boys who are going to rise up and fight against me.    But who does Yahweh use to thwart Pharaoh's plans? Two midwives, working professionals, and a whole bunch of other women all throughout the book of Exodus. If you can't tell, I'm a raging Jesus feminist with three daughters under my roof right now. And so I love that you asked this question.   There are certainly distinctions. And listen, we got to be careful here. There are differences in genders. God-appointed gender. God appointed differences in leadership within the home and within the church, right, which is not popular outside of the church. [00:19:01] But I can't get around God's word here. But both men and women are called all throughout scripture to roll up them sleeves and work hard at the work of the Lord of cultivating creation for His glory and the good of others.   Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.    [00:19:21]   Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity.    Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Lemans". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car-buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman in Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.    Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.    [00:20:42]   Laura Dugger: I think something I've been wrestling with lately is I wonder what lies Satan is whispering that we're not even aware of. And I think one piece is that it's sinful or unbiblical for women to work, especially to work outside the home. And I know God has a different call on everyone's life. But yeah, could you speak to that? We have four daughters. You have three daughters. This is-   Jordan Raynor: Oh my gosh, if I'm Satan, if I'm Satan, I would love nothing more than to convince 50% of the image of God not to bear God's image outside of the four walls of my home. That sounds like a pretty good strategy. That sounds like a killer strategy, right?   And listen, don't take my opinion for it. Don't take Laura's opinion for it. Go read the Word. I think when you open up God's Word, you're going to see that a lot of these... it's going to expose the lies. [00:21:43] By the way, Satan doesn't just peddle lies through nonbelievers. Just as frequently, I think we could say, Satan is peddling lies through well-intentioned believers. Lies about heaven and the new earth that we just talked about. Lies about work that I grew up believing as we talked about in the beginning of this. And I think lies about the role that women can joyfully and enthusiastically play working inside and outside the home for God's glory and the good of others.   Laura Dugger: So well said. I just completely agree that it's a both-and. They think some people are called inside the home and that is a worthy work, and some are not.   Jordan Raynor: 100%. By the way, my wife works full-time in the home. That is a noble calling that she's chosen for this season. And I'm so appreciative of that. But there have been other seasons where she hasn't chosen that. Blessed be the name of the Lord.   We're so obsessed with black... we're all Pharisees. [00:22:45] We love adding extra regulations and rules on top of God's Word, this extra-biblical junk to make ourselves feel superior to one another. And I think when we get back to the Word, we find a lot more freedom than we find in our churches and our pharisaical structures.   Laura Dugger: Okay, so then you and your wife, I'd love to hear the ages of your daughters and how you two are engaging with them and teaching or discipling them on topics like this.   Jordan Raynor: I've been married to Kara for 15 years now. She's the love of my life. I love her dearly. And we got three little girls. So Ellison is 10, Kate is 8, and Emery, we adopted at birth almost five years ago. It'll be five years, one month from today.   And yeah, discipling them is a challenge and a joy. I think the hardest part is just redeeming the time and making space for intentional time with them. [00:23:50] And we can talk about how we do that if you're interested.   But, you know, practically what discipleship looks like in our home is every morning around the breakfast table, I'm there with the girls memorizing God's word. And not just memorize it, but really talking about it. So take it a week, right? It's like, okay, we love because He first loved us. Who's He? What does that mean? How did Christ show that love to us? And what does it look like practically for us to show that love to others?   So scripture memorization and discussion of the scriptures is a big part of it. Don't hear me saying we do family devotionals. We don't. We're not that put together. We're not that formal. It's really just taking a passage of scripture and hiding it in their hearts and trying to make it as practical and actionable for the day as possible.   Then, two, we talk with our kids a lot. As much as we can, we are pointing them to God and His goodness in regular conversations. It may be specific studies. I'm writing books for kids. So I wrote a book called The Creator in You about the call to create that we see in Genesis 1. [00:24:51] I'm about to publish a second one called The Royal in You about ruling and working with Jesus on the new earth. So we're constantly talking about those themes.    And then also looking for really tactical physical things within the house to point them to Jesus. I'll give one example, then I'll shut up, and or you can follow up on anything you want. I was really convicted by a friend and again, this is at the risk of sounding pharisaical. I'm not saying this is a rule you got to do. This is just working for my family.   I said the word "awesome" like three times in a conversation. He's like, "Hey, only God is awesome." It really stopped me and maybe take stock of my words. I'm like, "Man, there should be a word awesome, amazing, whatever you want, right, whatever works for you works, but there should be a word that we reserve for God alone, right? Even holy. We talk about us being holy as God is holy, right?    And so we just decided we're going to reserve "awesome" for God. [00:25:50] And we put a jar, kind of like a swear jar in people's houses. We put a “not awesome” jar in the middle of our living room. And every time somebody says something's awesome, other than God, we have to put a buck in it. And then we donate that money to an orphanage that we love supporting.   But Laura, that sounds silly and really trivial, but guess what? In the last week, it's given me, I don't know, 15 opportunities to talk about how Jesus is better than any creative thing. Man, I'll do that all day long. I'm constantly looking for little things like that to latch on to, to talk about God's goodness, to talk about His awesomeness, and talk about the role that He's called us to play in bringing heaven to earth.   Laura Dugger: Wow. No, that doesn't sound silly at all. Actually, it just is in line with these themes, intentional in our work, intentional in our time, intentional in our words, and that matters.   Jordan Raynor: I love John Tyson and his book, The Intentional Father. [00:26:54] I'm the overly intentional father. I am too intentional. And that will show up in this conversation, I promise.   Laura Dugger: No, we celebrate that around here for sure. That was kind of my follow-up question you just alluded to, being intentional. Was it with getting time with your daughters? Do you and Kara have a system for that?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah, we do. Listen, this isn't going to come as a surprise to anybody listening. Our phones are enemy number one in our fight for deep work that we do in front of the laptop, but also the deep work of discipleship with our kids. And maybe the biggest game changer of my life and discipling my kids is that my kids never, almost never see me on my phone inside of my house. Outside my house for direction, sure.    I track this. I log every day that they see me. The last 90 days, my kids have seen me on my phone one time, inside of my house. [00:27:52] You better believe they know that dad loves them, but more importantly, it gives me more intentional space to be with them without being distracted.    And I know that sounds impossible to listeners. So let me give you five steps for cultivating this. If you want to do this, you're like, man, yeah, I would love to put my phone down for an hour and not think about it. Five steps. It's really simple to do, but it's going to take a lot of courage.    Number one, choose ahead of time when you want to check your texts and emails and asynchronous messages, right? It could be every hour. It could be on a, maybe say it's 10 a.m., 12 p.m., 2 p.m., 4 p.m., 6 p.m. That's it. Whatever.    Step two, build a list of VIPs who will have access to it all times and not just those predetermined times. So my VIPs are my wife, my kids' school, my assistant. It's pretty much it. Step three, pull out your phone and add all of your VIPs to your Favorites list if you're an iOS user or "Your people" list, if you're an Android user, that way, when you use just the basic out-of-the-box, do not disturb settings on your phone, only calls from those people come through. [00:28:57] Not their texts, not their emails, not every Instagram notification of people liking yet another picture of your dog, just phone calls from your VIPs.   Step four, you got to set clear expectations with your VIPs about your new response time. You send them a very simple message like this. I actually give you the template in the Redeeming Your Time book, but this is the gist. "Hey, I'm trying to be more focused with my kids at home." I know by the way, also at work, especially if you're sending this to your boss. "Here's how you can help me from now on. I'm only checking emails, texts, etc., at X, Y, and Z times. However, you're a VIP in my life. And so if you need me more urgently than that, do not text me, I won't see it. Don't email me. I won't see it. But if you call me on my cell, I'll answer every single time that I can."   Last step, step five, put your phone away for an hour and a half at a time. When you're with your kids, keep your phone out of sight, out of mind. For mine, I keep it in my master bathroom. It's on "do not disturb". I turn the ringer on. [00:29:58]    And here's what happens. I actually spent two and a half hours apart from my phone at nighttime from 5 to seven 30 p.m. every single night. And functionally what I've done is I've turned my cell phone into a landline, right? If the phone rings, I can go in there and see what VIP is calling and decide whether or not I want to answer it. But in all that other time, I am fully focused on my kids and the conversations I'm having with them about their day.    Laura, it's been a total, total game changer for me and for thousands and thousands of readers of Redeeming Your Time. This is one of 32 practices in the book, and I'm willing to bet it's probably in the top five of reader favorites.   Laura Dugger: Well, and I can see why that's incredible. And I'm curious, Jordan, do you know Joey Odom with Aro?   Jordan Raynor: I know Joey. I talked to Joey yesterday. I love Joey Odom.   Laura Dugger: Okay. He's wonderful. So we will link to an episode that he did on The Savvy Sauce. [00:31:00] If you're looking for more practical ways as well, like you said, putting your phone away, he just can contribute. I think that partners nicely.   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. And if you don't know Aro, go check out the episode. But basically it's an app on your phone. It's also a physical box that you can put the phone in. And it basically gamifies what I just explained.    So instead of me being accountable to care of my kids, I could theoretically share with my friends, "Hey, I spent two and a half hours today apart from my phone. Here's a screenshot of the evidence. I love what Joey and their team are doing. It's incredible.   Laura Dugger: And like you said, this is just one of the helpful suggestions in Redeeming Your Time. My husband and I have both benefited so much from that book.   Jordan Raynor: I love it. Thank you.   Laura Dugger: Well, yes. And thank you. But I'd love for you to walk us through the topics and the questions that we ask ourselves as we metaphorically go floor by floor through the building of intentional living.   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. [00:32:00] You're asking about chapter four of the book, where I'm talking about prioritizing our yeses. And we hear about all these different terms when it comes to setting priorities. We talk about mission statements and callings and long-term goal, whatever. I just found it necessary for myself to bake the cake and put it all together. Be like, okay, give me one simple framework for thinking about all these things and how they connect to each other.    And so the metaphor I use in the book is this five-story building where on the fifth floor, the very top of this hotel, whatever you envision this building being is your mission in life that is over everything else. Listen, there are people selling books left and right, helping you discern the mission for your life. I'll let you off the hook for having to buy those. Listen, you didn't make yourself and so you don't get to choose the mission of your life. God does. Here's the mission of your life: to glorify God, period, full stop, right?   Now God in this goodness has given us a lot of freedom to choose the callings on the fourth floor of how we will live out that mission. But that's your mission, right? [00:33:05] So mission, fifth floor; fourth floor, next level down is callings. So I am called right now to be a husband, to be a father, and to be the CEO of Jordan Raynor company and create this content. That's it. I've chosen three callings, right?    The next level down are long-term goals. This is level three of the building, okay? Long-term goals. I am the biggest believer in the world in setting the biggest possible long-term goals, because in my experience, that's what helps me say no. If I have really small goals, I am getting sucked into the thick of thin things every single time.    So I would argue Christ's power should be setting the biggest long-term goals on the planet. By long-term, I'm talking at least a year, more likely three to five years, setting those long-term goals for each of your callings.    Then the next level down are short-term goals, which whatever works for you works. Maybe you want to set goals on a weekly basis, monthly basis. I love the quarterly cadence. [00:34:05] Every three months, looking at my long-term goals and setting quarterly goals that are attached to that.    And then the bottom floor, the first floor of this metaphorical building are what I call projects and actions. This is the tactical stuff. This is your to-do list born out of mission calling, long-term goals, short-term goals.    Okay. What are the specific projects and actions that I need to execute against over the next seven days, over the next quarter to make progress towards those goals? And then, as you know, Laura, there's a secret sixth floor to this building, which it doesn't deserve to be called a floor. It's the basement.    And this is what I call posteriorities. And this might be the most important. This is everything else that falls outside of what's already on my plate professionally and what falls under those short-term goals. Everything else goes into the basement of my mind in this metaphorical building. [00:35:05]    And so in my to-do list app, what I call my commitment tracking system, all of those projects and actions literally go in a separate folder called "Someday" that I only look at every 90 days. Once every 90 days, I look at that, decide if there's anything I want to pull out and work on over the next 90 days. But for the other, what is that, 89 days and a quarter, all of those things are out of sight, out of mind, so that I can fully focus on the work that I believe that God has called me to execute against over the next three months.   Laura Dugger: So good. Again, and these 90 days, let's zoom in on that. We also share a passion for the quarterly time, even the brain science behind it, that your brain can only be reminded and to hang on to a goal for 90 days. What does yours actually look like in these 90 days? Can you give us some examples in your own life of a goal for your calling and then ground floor what that looks like? [00:36:08]    Jordan Raynor: Yeah, I would be happy to. I'll show you some quarterly goals for the family. I got personal and professional short-term goals, quarterly goals. Here's a personal one. I really love the OKR framework, which if you're not familiar with it, Google made this famous, stands for objectives and key results.   So objectives are aspirational. They're the what you want to accomplish. And the key results are measurable and they tell you whether or not you reached the what. So, for example, this quarter, personally, objective. Strengthen my point of view on youth sports and whether or not it is in line with our family's goal to love like Jesus.    This one's going to hit for our audience. I have a feeling. Key result number one: read three credible articles from youth sports advocates and three articles from Detractors. [00:37:10]    Key result number two, post questions on this topic to at least two godly friends who have had their kids in serious youth sports and two who have intentionally chosen not to.    And then key result number three, draft a summary of my point of view on this topic and deliver it to Kara by December 31st.   All right. Let me give you a professional example. In this quarter, yeah, I'll share this, whatever. This is a little inside baseball, but it's fun. I can't say the name of it, but the objective is to sell my first TV show to Netflix or Amazon.    We're currently shopping a project right now. I actually only have one key result for this and it's to get one yes or three nos from A-list actors to agree to play the starring role in this show. So that's how I'll know. That's the progress I'm going to make towards that goal.    So that's just a couple of examples from my life. I obsess over this quote from Bill Gates though. I think this would be helpful for our listeners. [00:38:10] Gates once said that we human beings have the tendency to vastly overestimate what we can accomplish in a short period of time, i.e. a quarter, and vastly underestimate what we can do in a decade with what Eugene Peterson called long obedience in the same direction, right?   So if you take one thing from this conversation on goals, take that from Bill Gates. What you can get done in three months is virtually nothing, right? So set your goals accordingly. But what you can get done in a decade with long obedience in the same direction, you're not doing it, God's doing it through you is incredible.   Laura Dugger: I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled Support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. [00:39:14]    Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   These examples are so helpful. I love practical examples because it helps me envision how to begin applying what I want to put into practice after a conversation like this one. My husband, Mark, and I will oftentimes reflect and look back on times that have been transformational in our lives. Typically, it's from practical application, you have to apply it, that leads to transformation. So, Jordan, will you give us maybe three to five habits or time savers or general best ways to steward our time?   Jordan Raynor: Oh, man, I'd love to. Honestly, the biggest one for me I've already shared, which is just taking control of when you check your messages. I cannot stress that enough. [00:40:19]    Let me give you a couple others. One, you want to do your most exceptional work, you've got to be getting a seven to eight-hour nightly sleep opportunity. The easiest way to practically do it is to just set a consistent bedtime. Most people have a fixed time at which they wake up, so it's simple math, right? Subtract from that, go back eight hours, that's your bedtime.   Gosh, you might not like the science. Trust me, I don't like the science, but the science is settled on this one. Most, 99% of human beings need seven to eight hours of sleep at night. That's a game-changer for me.    Honestly, weekly Sabbath has been a game-changing habit for me and my family that I think has made us much more productive in our goals.    I'll give you another one. Do one new thing at a time. In your work, in your life, you probably have a lot of recurring responsibilities based on work that you've created over the years. [00:41:19] With whatever time you have left over, the worst mistake, in my experience, that you can make is to try to do five new initiatives at once. You do one new thing at a time until it's done, and then when it's done, you move on to the next thing.    I'm trying to think of some other ones from the book. Yeah, I'll say this one. This is one of my favorite practices. It takes two seconds to start, but again, it takes a lot of courage. Quit the news cold turkey and let your friends curate the news for you. Why? How is this connected to time management, people ask me?    It could not be more relevant because all of this external noise is creating a lot of internal noise that blocks your ability to be loving, to think, to be creative, and listen to the voice of God. I know because I was the ultimate news junkie until eight years ago when I quit cold turkey. You know what happened when I quit cold turkey? Nothing. Nothing negative happened. [00:42:21]    What did happen is my friends started telling me about everything that I cared about, voluntarily. They have no idea they're doing this, but they're bringing me this. I spot-check from time to time. I'll go to CNN.com and say, did I really miss anything? Nope. 99% of the news is still totally irrelevant to my life and work. Great. Man, that's been a game-changer for me, Laura.   Laura Dugger: I did love that one about let your friends curate the news for you. Just one other follow-up. I want to circle back to the quarterly. Just as we're talking about practical application, how can someone start doing, if that's their first goal is to maybe plan something quarterly? How do you have a system in place to revisit these things every 90 days and what does that look like?   Jordan Raynor: That's a great question. I take a quarterly retreat. Ideally, this is for at least one night. Sometimes when things are really crazy, I just have to take a day to go do it. In that quarterly retreat, I'm doing a few things. [00:43:20]    First, I am just journaling the game that God has already produced in my work, the good things He's already done over the last three months.   Two, I'm just taking time to worship Him and praise Him for that. Remember that not only did I not deserve anything for the last three months, I certainly don't deserve anything over the next three months. It's putting me in this humble position of recognizing that the only thing I deserve is death due my sin. God has given me Christ and way more, and that puts me in a much healthier heart position to dream about what's next.    Then third step, I just journal off the top of my head without looking at any prompts what I think is most important over the next three months. I don't look at my to-do list because what's most important should be readily apparent to me. I shouldn't have to look at anything, right?    Number four, I review journal entries from the last 90 days as well as my to-do list to refine that journal entry about what I thought was most important. Maybe I forgot, oh yeah, Jordan, you're releasing a book in the next quarter. [00:44:25] We got to get ready for that or six months from now, whatever it is.    Then five, I am taking a first stab at drafting those objectives and key results. My rule is no more than five objectives in a given quarter and no more than five key results for each objective, which could mean 25 key results.    Most of the time for me, I wind up at one to three objectives total and one to, oh man, like 10 max key results in a quarter. Most recently, I've had between one and three key results, that's it, that I'm focused on the next 90 days.   Oh, by the way, I've been crushing it. The fewer key results that I'm setting, the quicker I'm getting my goals done. The last two quarters, I've hit my goals early for the quarter and I've had to go into that someday folder and pull new things out because I've gotten everything done. That feels great. [00:45:28]    Laura Dugger: That's incredible. That does feel great to get to check that off and go to the next thing. I want to see how people can apply this, but first also, maybe Sabbath is more so something that grabbed them. So can you share just a little glimpse of what that looks like? Because you said that's one of your most impactful habits.   Jordan Raynor: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sabbath starts with work, right? You got to work hard and work well if you want to be able to rest well. Maybe helpful to think about this, I'm doing all the work for two days in one. So we have chosen to enjoy the gift of Sabbath. Notice I didn't say observe Sabbath because that connotes life-sucking legalism.    We enjoy the gift of Sabbath from Saturday dinner time until Sunday dinner time. So Saturday afternoon, we are going through our Sabbath prep checklist. That includes cleaning up the house, picking everything up so we're not distracted, packing bags and waters for church the next day, making a plan for Sabbath. [00:46:33] So who do we want to hang out with? Texting and coordinating those plans ahead of time so we're not attached to our phones on Sabbath itself, doing laundry, running the dishwasher.   And then when we get to the end, I'm sending my phone on a 24-hour vacation. So I mentioned spending two and a half hours apart from my phone each night. On Sabbath, it is on airplane mode for 24 hours.   Then we kick off Sabbath by just feasting. So Sabbath to us is... I love how Kevin DeYoung put it. It's an island of get-to and a sea of have-to. We try to do nothing on that I have to-do list and only things on that get to-do list.   So that starts a feasting on some of our favorite foods. We get takeout. So cleanup's really easy. So we're Chewy's Mexican or good Chinese food, whatever. We light a candle to kick off Sabbath so that it always smells like Sabbath in my house, which is usually pumpkin pecan waffles, even when it's like July in Florida, which makes no sense. [00:47:33]    Then Saturday night's pretty chill, watching a little bit of TV with the kids, whatever. They're going to bed. On Sunday, this is my one day a week where I sleep in. My wife sleeps in the other six days of the week. I sleep in, Kara gets up with the kids. It's the one day a week of the week where they get to watch a full-length movie, which they're super pumped about, and don't judge me, drink coffee. So they get to drink coffee on Sabbath.    My kids wake up super early, so they can finish the movie before church. On the way to church is one of my favorite traditions where we stop and get donuts on the way and the whole drive we're talking about what we're thankful for from the past week. So just looking back, what are we grateful for? And then what do we want to adore God for about His character based on what He's done and what we've seen Him do and what we're thankful for the past week?   We then go feast on the word with our church family and then come back, have lunch at the house. We don't do the lunch after church thing to us. That's a little exhausting. [00:48:31] So we come home, have lunch here.    And then Sunday afternoons are pretty chill. A lot of times we're just playing games or swimming in the pool. This past Sunday, we went for a walk and let the kids climb some trees. But just a day to slow down and catch up to our souls and just be and remind ourselves that we are loved and valued, even when we're not being productive, that our heavenly Father does not need us. He wants us to quote my friend, [Scott Jotani? 00:49:05] And man, it's been a total game-changer.    I'll end with this. I saw a mentor who I hadn't seen in years. I think this was last summer. And we were on vacation in Rhode Island. I talked to my mentor for about an hour and he texted me after I left his house and he's like, "Hey, you seem way more rested than I saw you the last five years ago." And it's not vacation rest. He called that out. He's like, "This is not vacation rest. What is this?" I was like, "It's Sabbath." He's like, "That's what I thought. That's what I thought."   People can feel it. People know when they're in the presence of somebody who is living and working out of a Sabbath rest. So I would encourage you to try it. Treat it as an experiment. Don't say, "We're going to do this for the rest of our lives. Try it for four weeks. Try it for six weeks. Give it a shot. And I think you'll be blown away at how healthy it is, both for your soul and for the goals that you're chasing after the rest of the week. [00:50:10]    Laura Dugger: Okay. Challenge accepted. So great. So then bringing this home for someone, if they need to get quiet, get with the Lord, and just see what's bubbling up for them, do you have any other recommended Scripture, places to start, or questions for reflection or anything just to point us in the right direction?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. I would just point you to the Gospels and the way of Jesus. We read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John almost exclusively for their theology and the ethic of Jesus and they certainly have a lot to say about that. But as my friend John Mark Comer has pointed out, the Gospels are also biographies of Jesus' life. And I don't know about you, but I want to redeem my time in the model of my Redeemer. He is the key to the whole thing.    By the way, even non-Christians can get on board with this. I'll tell non-Christians all the time, like, hey, Christian or not... pretty hard to dispute that Jesus was the most productive person to ever walk the earth. [00:51:09] And we know how He managed His time. And no, the Gospels don't show Him with a to-do list or a smartphone, but they show Him dealing with distractions at work. One time a guy literally dropped through the roof over Jesus' head while He was working and preaching. Unless that's happening to you, you're not more distracted than Jesus was, right?    They show Him seeking to be busy without being hurried. They show Him having to dissent from the kingdom of noise to think. And so, man, you want to redeem your time toward eternal ends? Look to the author of time, Jesus of Nazareth in the Gospel biographies.    Laura Dugger: This has been incredible to lay the foundation for our own lives, which is great to put into practice first. But as we're tying it all up to, how can we pass along this wisdom to our children?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Number one, just talk about the biblical narrative of work and productivity that your kids are probably not hearing in Sunday school. [00:52:11] I know because I see the Sunday school curriculum. I'm an elder in our church. They're not seeing it.    Point them to Genesis 1 and 2. Point them to the fact that we worship a God who works and created us to work and be productive and redeem our time in His image. And you can do that through Genesis 1 and 2. You can fast forward to Revelation 21 and 22 and Isaiah 65 that talks about work and productivity for eternity on the new earth.   Then I do have a couple of picture books that I wrote for kids as a tool, as a resource for you to communicate the why of redeeming your time, the why of work to your kids. They're called The Creator in You, which is this artistic interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2, and The Royal in You, which is the opposite book into scripture in Revelation 21 and 22.    And my prayer for this book is that it will... your kids may not admit this to you, but if they're anything like I was as a kid, if they're anything like my kids used to be, your kids view heaven with confusion, boredom, and maybe even fear. [00:53:18] And that's tragic because God's word replaces all of that with biblical clarity, excitement, and hope.    And that's my prayer for this book, that based on God's word, it would expand the vision of kids and, frankly, grownups to view heaven in the new earth with that clarity, excitement, and hope, all to God's greater glory and our greater joy.   Laura Dugger: A worthy vision indeed. We will certainly link to those resources in the show notes. Jordan, this time has been so enjoyable, but I still have one question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, honestly, I've shared a lot of the practical answers to that. We started the conversation theological, went practical, let's end theological. My savvy sauce lately is that I spend a lot of time thinking about where I see myself professionally in five million years, not five years like you were asked in a job interview. [00:54:30]   Because again, God's word promises that we will work free from the curse of sin. And here's why, and here's how this connects to redeeming the time. The more that I've meditated on that promise of long enjoying the work of my hands, I am far less hurried in the present.   Because I spent years, Laura, worrying about finishing my life's work, of getting it all done. I got to get past this business because I still want to do X, Y, and Z in my life, right? But knowing that I'm going to have eternity to work for God's glory, I am free from all of those burdens and just so much less hurried because here's what's going to happen.   When I die with unfinished symphonies, and all of us will die with unfinished symphonies and to-do lists, either God is number one, going to tap somebody else on the shoulder and have them pick up that work and finish it, praise God. [00:55:29] Number two, He's going to finish that work by himself with no human involvement, praise God. Or number three, when I arise from the nap that is death, God in his goodness and generosity will put that unfinished symphony back in my hands and give me the joy of finishing it free from the curse of sin, praise God.   Either way, I don't lose. If the things on my to-do list are on God's to-do list, He will finish them. And as I've thought about that and work on the new earth, it has just been radical in slowing me down and recognizing that eternity is now in session and I don't have to finish it all before I die. It's been a tremendous gift that the Lord has given me. So I would encourage our listeners to do the same.   Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, Jordan, clearly God has gifted you with being a vision caster, a visionary, a leader, and I just appreciate this conversation is oozed with your love of Kara and your daughters and our Lord and has been, like you said, theological and practical. [00:56:41] I just have learned so much. So thank you for being intentional about redeeming your time. It really is a way that you are loving others and loving God well, and I just appreciate you. So thank you for being my guest.   Jordan Raynor: Thank you, Laura.   Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.   But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:57:43] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.    So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.    If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?    First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.    Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.    Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

In this episode, Dr. Lee Warren, a brain surgeon and advocate for integrating faith and science, delves into 'Theology Monday.' He discusses the importance of combining faith and science to address life's challenges and seek the truth. Dr. Warren emphasizes that when facing seemingly insurmountable problems, faith can offer the support science cannot. He explores how God routinely accomplishes the impossible and shares insights from Psalm 121 and Eugene Peterson's 'A Long Obedience in the Same Direction.' The episode encourages listeners to choose forward progress through footprints rather than creating monuments of defeat and reassures them that God can make a way through any hardship. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Self Brain Surgery 00:19 Theology and Faith in Science 01:15 Theology Monday: Addressing Struggles 02:40 Sponsor Message and Brain Health 03:40 Science and Faith: Complementary Paths 07:39 Monuments and Footprints 10:06 Community and Healing 17:20 The Power of Prayer and Reflection 19:47 Facing Life's Challenges 26:05 Overcoming Adversity 28:09 Facing Desperation and Fear 28:37 Engaging Your Frontal Lobe 29:26 Changing Trains of Thought 31:30 Monuments and Footprints 33:30 A Family Vacation and Healing 42:57 God's Impossible Feats 48:17 Leaving Footprints, Not Monuments 52:11 Final Thoughts and Encouragement Click here for the transcript! Resources and Links: The sponsor for this episode is TImeline: Visit timeline.com, and use the discount code leewarren33 for 33% off your first order of MitoPure! I've created a free BRAIN Goals™ Guide for you! Click here to download the guide. It will help you align your mindset to your mission and set goals to make 2025 your best year yet! Be sure to check out my latest book, Hope Is the First Dose! Sign up for my weekly Self-Brain Surgery Newsletter here! ABIDE Prayer method Lectio365 app Kari Jobe song mentioned Eugene Peterson book mentioned (affiliate link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices