The Arise Podcast

 Spiritual Abuse, Christianity and the Election with Guest HostChristian Nationalism and Spiritual Abuse: A 90 minute workshop with Jenny McGrath (click here to register)w/Danielle S. Castillejo and Jenny McGrathAre you confused about what is going on in the US? Do you feel triggered about past spiritual abuse when you see certain elected officials and faith leaders using harmful rhetoric? Are you wanting understanding and tools to navigate this present moment? You are not alone!  Danielle Castillejo and I have been researching the various tributaries of white supremacy via Christian nationalism and spiritual abuse for years now. We are devastated to see what is playing out post Trump's election, but we are not surprised.In early 2025 Danielle and I will be beginning groups for individuals who are wanting to process, grieve, and learn more about spiritual abuse and it's various intersections with race. For now we are offering an introductory workshop to help individuals feel empowered to know what is going on. This workshop is hybrid- you can join online or in person in Poulsbo, Washington.We will not be giving all of the answers, but we will be giving a framework of “purity culture” and how that has fostered violence based on race, gender, ethnicity, and sexuality since the inception of the US. What is going on right now is not new, but many people are awakening to it for the first time.Stay awake. Come learn with us how we can resist, together. Note: This workshop will be recorded and made available for future purchase. Speaker 1 (00:13):Welcome to the ARise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and the church. And tune in and listen to this conversation today. Hey, thanks for joining me today. We've been talking about getting together, I think, in this format on a podcast since before the election, but obviously the election happened. It was a hectic season. I know for me, and I know for you, I want to hear about how that has been as well. But even just as we were kind of saying hello, we're leading in, I could tell like, oh man, shit, there's so many emotions that possibly come up. So we talked about talking about spiritual abuse, the election, and the role of Christianity in that. And for me, it's been so confusing. I grew up a really strict evangelical church. When Fox News appeared on the scene, my dad was watching Fox News and I was watching Fox News, and I've been trying to trace back, did I ever have any dissonance with this?(01:22):And I remember some of the first things when I was a kid, like reading a Time magazine about the election and wondering to myself, why do Christians, the Christians I was with, why do they support Republicans? Why are they against social programs? And then when the Iraq war was going on, it felt very clear to me that SDA Hus saying that they were lying about what was happening in the Middle East. But I didn't understand how all of the Republicans that were kind of pushing this narrative about Iraq, why didn't anybody even ask just simple history majors becauseSpeaker 2 (02:02):It'sSpeaker 1 (02:02):Obvious. So those are kind of some of the origins. I remember kind of questioning my roots and questioning the narrative of say, Fox News. And now I know there's, there's Charlie Kirk, there's all these other podcast out there kind of rebranding Fox News talking points. But I mean, where that intersected with faith for me is just like, well, how do I even talk about a character like Jesus with someone from that old place when I don't really know if we're talking about the same person anymore? In fact, it's fairly clear to me that it's not the same guy. And who's that guy in the Bible? It's been very confusing for me, but I'm just curious, how do you even open up to think about those questions and kind of the topics?Speaker 2 (02:51):Yeah, I mean, I resonate with the confusion and definitely feel that too. And I think it's one of those things where when I try to pull it apart and get some footing on where I'm at and what I think about it, it is hard to know where to start. Even your words about, okay, Fox News came out, my dad's watching this. I'm watching this. I'm a little confused, but also not quite sure what to make of it or how to even approach the dissonance that I'm experiencing. It goes back so far and so in the air water that it feels hard to disentangle. But I mean, I'm with you and feel so much of that same confusion. And I think even being in a red state, very red state, very conservative, very evangelical area, it's almost as if the Jesus and the political views are not for many.(04:09):And I am sure this is not limited to this area, but one of the things I experienced is it's not even, you can't even question, you can't even ask the question, the question of, wait, what's actually happening here? What is someone who actually has a degree in history in Middle Eastern politics? You can't even ask those questions because those questions are a sign that you're doubting or that you've moved to the other side. And so there's such a blindness, and if you go away from us, you're wrong. So much fear. And to pull Jesus apart from that, it very much does feel like a different, we're talking about a different Jesus, which is super disorienting, right? Because we might use the same verses or verses from the same Bible or we celebrate the same holidays, or it feels very disorienting and very confusing.Speaker 1 (05:21):Yeah. I think this idea that Jesus was about love or is something of love, that he was defiant towards religious Pharisees and the people that were persecuting others in the name of religion, it's very interesting then to see one part of my family feel like they're being persecuted and in response to that persecution, they're asking for a king. Or maybe the thing that came to me was the crowd chanting when Jesus was getting ready to be crucified. And the crowd, they're like, the Romans are like, well, who do you want? And they're like, of course we want Barbi. We want the insurrectionist. We want the murderer, the cheater. That's the person we want. Let's kill Jesus. I'm not equating our political figures to Jesus and Barbi, but the idea that we will take even hearkening back to the Old Testament times that we'll take, we need a king, give us a king that somehow the politics, we need politics to save us that Jesus isn't enough anymore. And I don't know when that kind of gets mixed together, the power almost becomes unbearable to fight against, especially if you're on your own.Speaker 2 (06:40):Yeah. Yes. I was actually thinking about this morning how much I think, and I don't know enough about international politics to speak to anything outside of the us, but it feels like our spirituality, especially within the evangelical church in the US, has gotten. So I, I don't know that I would necessarily call myself an evangelical anymore, but that body, which carries a lot of weight, a lot of numbers, a lot of passion in our country, the spirituality has been so fused with politics that it does feel like we need a certain political movement to save us. And I think that could be said on the other side too, in some ways, and I guess in my own, as I've tried to parse out where am I at, where is my spirituality, politics are important, and I feel that we need to vote in line with how we feel, where we find ourselves in terms of our spirituality. And yet Jesus is the rescuer, not a certain political party. And what does that mean? I don't even know how to exist in the midst of where we're at today with that being true, and then it feels so hard to pull apart.Speaker 1 (08:23):Yeah, I mean, for me, I know it hearkens back to so many other places in my life, I've felt powerless against a huge system, or I think specifically in churches where the goal is to has often, well, my experience or the churches that I've been in, the goal has been to preserve the power of a particular pastor or a particular set of pastors and to shield them from any consequences of any ways they might act in the community or individually one-on-one for instance with women. And then I've had the feeling in these circumstances where I just have to take it. I have to take it. I have to move on. I have to accept that God works in this way, that all things work together for good. And that's the same feeling I have right now post-election, that feeling like, okay, this is what's meant to be. This is what God has ordained. You should just take it. And I'm having that similar feeling,Speaker 2 (09:32):Which is not right. That's not, of course, I mean, I'm resonating with what you're saying and feel that deeply, and that is a deep part of my story as well. And of course our bodies go to that. Our bodies are going to go to that story of, okay, this is how we function in the midst of this powerlessness of being within this system or up against this thing that we don't have any, what's a response to it? It feels insurmountable. So yeah, there's so much in me that's like, okay, God's still in control, but even though that feels very familiar in my body, I think as I've done work, and it also doesn't like no, no, something in me is saying, no, no, no, that's not, can't just kind of in a Christian coded scripture, coded way, settle and be okay with what is happening, even though I don't know what to do in a lot of ways, in the midst of that tension, I'm not settled, and I'm not that old pad answer, padded answer of, yeah, God's in control. Everything is going to be okay. Everything works for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.(11:13):It's not settling me,Speaker 1 (11:16):Right? Because it's not the same scripture if you're white as if you're black or brown or that's true, that scripture means very different things. If you're from white majority power and you say that scripture, you might have the finances and whatnot to deal with coming or the access to education, for instance. But if you're brown, you actually have to give up access to resources that can help your family, like literal, physical, pragmatic resources and be asked to be okay with that for that verse. That's a very different theology than for two sets of people.Speaker 2 (11:53):And it's why as I'm sitting with my clients and the work I do as a therapist, often it is the black and brown clients who are not, they haven't been able to digest this and just move on. It still, it's right here. This is the reality that we're in the middle of, and that is coming, and it is so much easier as a white person to just call on that verse, call on that scriptural ideal because we're not being cost things that those with less privilege are. AndSpeaker 1 (12:44):At the same time, what does it ask you? I can think of some examples for me, but for you in your location, what does this movement ask you to normalize or to make? Okay. Can you name specific things or general things that you can thinkSpeaker 2 (13:03):The movement of the election outcome and what's coming? What's happening?Speaker 3 (13:08):Yeah,Speaker 2 (13:15):That's a great question. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is just kind of going back to this concept that it's really hard to put words to, let me think for a second. So I think going back to answer this is exposing, right? Because it forces me to go back to the comfortable way that I used to view the world. I do think that that is having grown up in a hyper conservative evangelical world that's very red. There were certain ways that I had to tamp down any dissonance that I felt and being super faith oriented that often included a faith perspective. And so, yeah, I think some of the concepts or the ideas that I don't adhere to anymore, and that I was, Danielle, this is so hard to put words to this idea that there's I privilege and suffering. That sounds so gross, but I think there's so many mental gymnastics, even if I'm trying to articulate it, it's really hard because I might look at somebody less privileged than me in those days and think, well, they've got to work harder, but that's part of what they're being gifted. But at the same time, I would say that and hold that while being, not viewing myself that same way because I didn't, wasn't experiencing that lack of privilege that would've required me to work harder, to move forward, to be empowered, to change my outcome. So I don't know that I'm putting good words to what I'm feeling and thinking, butSpeaker 1 (16:14):I think I'm even thinking of, of how it's asked me to normalize that women don't need consent even for sex. It's not only that this was normalized through the president, but it was normalized through, it's been further reinforced through his cabinet picks. And this idea that it almost feels like to me, and I don't know if this is what it's intended to do, but the impact it's having on me is like, look at all the perpetrators I can nominate. And there's no consequence for that. This is okay, people are still shouting, this is God's will. This is God's will.Speaker 3 (17:07):Yeah.Speaker 2 (17:13):Yeah. I mean, as you're naming that, I can see your activation and I feel it too, right? It's going back to that and incredible powerlessness.Speaker 1 (17:39):And then the idea that somehow believing in Jesus is you can believe in Jesus and someone who commits rape or I sexual assault or abuse or human trafficking, that is a get out of jail free card. They can still be the leader. They can still be in charge, which from my experience is the truth in churches.Speaker 2 (18:12):It brings up the question in me, what are we doing? What is happening internally for us to make those jumps? And when I say us, I mean the people that would, and I years ago would've found myself in that camp, what was happening internally that could be so blatantly shown, and yet I'm going to put all my eggs in that basket regardless, because somehow that still can align with a mission of love and care and welcome and hope. I find the psychological mechanism there, which is rooted in a lot of what we know, white supremacy, patriarch, we know some of that, but just that the dissonance that has to be either just cut off from consciousness or somehow jumped over it is really interesting to me.Speaker 1 (19:26):Can you speak to that from a psychological standpoint, maybe in general terms, when you're in an abusive situation, what is that process like? Because what we're kind of describing, right?Speaker 2 (19:37):Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. Well, I mean, if in a harmful relationship and I'm under threat, and that threat can look a lot of different ways. It could be a sense of physical harm, emotional harm, sexual harm, spiritual harm, whatever that threat level is, it's going to activate nervous system responses in me that are good and are there to try to keep me safe. But that might include the typical fight flight, or it could include freeze or fawn, which all again, are good responses that our brain goes to try to keep us safe, but it requires certain parts of our brain to activate and other parts of our brain to not have quite so much energy put toward them. So my ability to think clearly and logically about what's happening is going to be much lower if I'm in a harmful situation, especially if this is repeated and we're talking about a relationship, this relationship not only includes harm, but also includes something good, which most harmful abusive relationships do. So yeah, psychologically, we're just not functioning on all levels if there's a threat of harm.(21:12):So I guess to your point, some of, and maybe not much of what is happening and people who I think truly, I don't know, I want to say that there are people who truly value the teachings of Jesus and want their life to be about him, and yet our things aren't functioning the way they should, not thinking clearly about what's happening. And they're such a dissociated kind of numbness too, which I think is a response that comes when we're being threatened. But I also think that then there is a commitment to it, a commitment to look away, a commitment to, in our privilege, just turn away from what we might in moments of safety, have questions about or see issues with. We can just, oh, I'll just look the other way. So I don't know if that gets at what you were asking, but feels multifaceted. It feels like there's kind of the response part, but then there's also a decision made.Speaker 1 (22:43):I think about that when we're in a position where we don't have power to make the choice we need to get out of it. Say we're a child and we're with an adult or in a job and maybe we need the job for money and we have an abusive employer, or maybe we're in a church system and we are under a threat of losing community or maybe access to work or resources. That pattern, I think of where you have to attach, maintain contact with the person that can hurt you to access some of those good things we're talking about. And at the same time, you have to detach in one of the ways you're talking about. You go into that learned trauma response from the harm that's also coming at you. So you almost have to split that off from the good things like the good and the bad things get split. If that happens over a long period of time, you become accustomed to doing that with maybe certain types of harm, for instance. And so I think about it, even in our bodies, some people drink scalding hot water or scalding hot cotton. Not saying it's wrong, but over time, your taste buds get numbed to that. You can numb out those initial burn sensations.(24:01):And so I think of that when I think of spiritual abuse or when our politics gets mixed up with normalizing, misogynistic and sexually abusive behaviors when we're elevating people that engage in these kinds of harms and saying, well, that's going to be okay for them, actually, let's give them more power. That's way if those are systems you're coming out of where abuse has been normalized or you've been told like, Hey, just follow, don't pay attention to your senses or your gut or your body, then by the time it gets here, you're going to be asking a lot less questions. You're not going to have the warning signals maybe going off. Yeah,Speaker 2 (24:45):Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And even going back to when you were naming what's Asked, what you're being asked to normalize that women don't get to have consent for sex or they can be mistreated and sexually harmed, and it doesn't really matter, even as you were naming that, I could feel in me that learned trauma response is still there in some ways of when I see these reports of cabinet members and all the stuff that's coming out that people are saying, there's still something in me that's just like, oh, yeah, of course. No big deal. That doesn't stick. And that is not where I end, but there is an initial response in me that is not surprised, that even thinks Well, of course. And it's not a position of That's okay. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's hard to put words to, but it is not as alarming as it should be at times.Speaker 1 (26:03):I think it's good to talk it out, even though it finds both of us without words, because how often are we able to have a conversation like this where we actually be wordless and someone can just talk with us?Speaker 3 (26:16):That's true.Speaker 1 (26:17):Majority of our lives, we have to spend working or taking care of others or surviving making food. I think that's probably why I wanted to just have a conversation like this, because it's not like it's just going to free flow. We're talking about statistics in a sport. It's not the same thing.Speaker 2 (26:35):Yeah, it's very true. And every piece is so interwoven, I think, for me, with my own story and things on a personal level, and then moving out the systemic levels of family and church and then bigger systems. So it does feel hard to put words to, but it is really, I think it is very worthwhile to stumble around and try to find words.Speaker 1 (27:14):Yeah, I mean, you and me we're not experts.Speaker 2 (27:17):No, nope.Speaker 1 (27:22):I was so glad you said personal story because there were things I thought like, oh, this is resolved. I am cool with this. And then it was the day after the election, and I found myself sitting in silence for just a long periods of time about anything to say. I didn't really have a clear thought, likeSpeaker 2 (27:41):A hundred percent. I mean, I think even, I haven't had a ton of conversations about it, honestly. I've kind of sat with folks as they've processed, but I have not taken a lot of space to process. And I think for at least a good week, I didn't have, there was really no way to put words to what my inner experience was. There was a lot of tears and a lot of silence and a lot of dread. But just this feeling of, if I even try to put words, I don't have words for this right now. And yeah,Speaker 1 (28:29):I think that's So partly is the, so insidiousness of spirituality that relies on power to be enforced is that it can tap into all those other tender places in us.Speaker 2 (28:55):Yeah. I mean, yes, it just feels like such a bind and so hard to locate. I think for me, I've got my own spiritual stuff like shifting and have been processing stories of spiritual harm, and I'm still in the midst of that. So that was already there, and then you add this layer on top of that, and it just feels really hard to even have the comforting personal spirituality to anchor to in the midst of all this powerlessness and not comforting in a numbed out split off way of everything's going to be fine, but I can anchor to a creator. I can anchor to a savior. I can anchor to something bigger than me that feels even hard to access.Speaker 1 (30:06):I was thinking about that. I was on Instagram and my family follows some hyper conservative podcasters. So I was watching, I look at that just to get an idea, what are other people thinking? And they were glory to God and Jesus answer by prayer. And I was wondering back in Nazi Germany who voted for Hitler and who had those same prayers and who had those same answers or colonists that came to the United States and raped and murdered and pillaged, and they felt like, oh, wow. God did this for me. I just felt like, wow. We literally think nothing alike. Yeah,Speaker 2 (30:55):And it's hard when you've got folks like that in your family. What commonality are we even standing on anymore? And maybe there's not any,Speaker 1 (31:12):I like to think that the commonality, I tell myself the commonality is that we both believe we're human and the humanity is shared between us, but I'm always not so sure about that if I believe we're both human. Do you actually believe that? I'm unsure,Speaker 2 (31:30):Right? Well, yeah, because I think that belief in our humanity has to require that, that we believe in another's humanity, right? That the dignity of another, and that feels far away. I am not sure how much access people, yeah, it's hard. I don't know the right words to use there, but I don't know how common that is right now.Speaker 1 (32:12):What do you do to find grounding for yourself or to comfort maybe in general or if you have any specifics?Speaker 2 (32:22):That's a good question. I think it's hard right now. I think I'm noticing how I am noticing the lack of grounding. I'm noticing how hard it is to be still, how hard it is to just relax, how hard it is to sit in silence, how hard it is not to grab my phone or eat or those are the things right now, that quick comfort, dopamine boost that I'm turning to. I think it is really, I don't think right now I've figured it out. I mean, I try to move my body every day. I think that is not stillness, but that is a grounded moment for me. And I think when I noticed, honestly in these days, for me, when the emotion has space to come up, letting it come up and not having all the words for it, but being in touch with my tears and in touch with the feeling of powerlessness feels grounded.Speaker 1 (33:44):So the feeling of powerlessness, being in touch with that feels grounding to you?Speaker 2 (33:49):Yeah.Speaker 1 (33:50):Can you say any more about that?Speaker 2 (33:53):Well, it feels real, right? It feels real. It feels real. It feels like in that moment, I'm not trying to numb it. I'm not trying to escape it. I'm not trying. I'm in a complex of like, oh, I can fix this somehow. And I think knowing that, even in those moments, I mean, those are very solitary moments for me. There's not a communal, that's not communal experience for me. But I think in those moments, there is something in me that knows I'm not the only one that's feeling that, and that feels grounding. I think what I've encouraged my clients to do who are reckoning with the fear terror, really disappointed feelings, all that they're coming out of the election with, I've encouraged them. Do you have folks who feel the same that you can just be with in this moment? Can we have community in the powerlessness? Not to stay there, but I do think our humanity has, for those of us who believe in the dignity, us and others around us as humans, we've taken a toll. Our bodies have taken a toll through this, and we need to know that in the midst of this powerlessness, we're not the only ones feeling it, that it feels like a moment of we've got to have other people around us to keep moving and respond, however that looks.(35:41):How about you?Speaker 1 (35:46):I think for me, every morning, just very, it might seem little, but every morning I've been going to the waterfront out here and taking pictures of the same scene, just, I can't even call it a sunrise because pre 7:00 AM it's like dark, dark, dark here in the winter, like dark, dark, dark at 4:00 PM I know it sounds silly, but I've been doing it. It just feels good. Just like, what does that look like? What does it like for me? What do I notice? It always seems to shift a tiny bit, and I like that. Otherwise, I'll text a friend or say, my day is shit, or This really good thing happened. I don't need anybody to make anything better for me because they really can't. But I just want someone to know so I'm not alone.Speaker 3 (36:32):Yeah.Speaker 2 (36:35):Yeah. Good. I like the thought of anchoring to nature, and there's something, I think for me, in the tender places of my own spirituality, being in nature, I can feel the closest to that, the closest to God, the closest to something of hope, something of, and I hope that's real, or at least I hope that it's real. I hope that it's real. You know what I mean? I hope that's not cheap. I like that.Speaker 1 (37:24):I like how you don't have to prove it, man. I hope that's it.Speaker 3 (37:29):Yeah.Speaker 1 (37:32):It feels like the opposite of that's been what's happening to us. Someone's trying to prove it to us.Speaker 2 (37:42):Yeah. How have you handled for you, what have you noticed in terms of taking in news updates? Do you keep yourself pretty open and pretty constantly accessing those things, or have you noticed the need to pause? How's that played out for you?Speaker 1 (38:03):Yeah. Over the weekend, I took a break. It just kind of thought about fun and good things, and I saw a lot of news stories flash across that I was interested in, but I was like, man, I'm not going to read that. That's not going to feel good. But prior to the election, I felt like I remember having this feeling in the last presidency of Trump that every day something bad happened or that every day something happened that I didn't know what to expect. And I think once he's in office, just let the bad things happen so I can know what it is. But right now, I don't know. And there's a lot of talking, but we don't know what's going to happen. So I'm trying to stay a little bit less engaged now because I am trying to stay informed on the things I need to stay informed on, but less engaged in that way. What about you?Speaker 2 (39:01):Yeah. It is funny, as you mentioned that his last presidency, what you felt, I remember feeling a palpable sense of relief when Biden came into office because it was like, I think I felt the same thing you felt without putting those words around it. It was just this constant, every day there was something else. Every day there was some shock or ugh. So whether that was realistic or not, I felt relief when he wasn't in office anymore, which took some time. But yeah, I feel that tension too of, well, I want to be informed, but also there is a lot of unknown. There is a lot of kind of talk that's not able to come into fruition yet, and it feels like, for me, it drives my anxiety, it drives my dread. So holding that tension of being informed, but not staying so connected to all the possibilities that I'm unwell and not able to do my job or love my kids or those things. Yeah.Speaker 1 (40:17):Yeah. Right.Speaker 2 (40:20):Yeah. I mean, there's so much weight. I think as we're just in our conversation, there's so much weight in my body, so much weight in my stomach, so much tightness in my throat. It's such a, there's so much dread,Speaker 3 (40:40):Right?Speaker 1 (40:42):Yeah. And I think that's, that's the thing that's different that I think it's good for us to keep naming. This isn't like PTSD where the trauma happened and it's in the past. This is an ongoing thing that hasn't stopped yet. So I think at the same time, it's ongoing. We'll often have these traumatic symptoms that we might call PTSD, but for us to expect ourselves or you or I expect someone else to just be over it, I don't think that's necessarily fair.Speaker 2 (41:22):Yeah. And I think in the midst of that, trying to be kind with ourselves and gentle, acknowledging what we are in the midst of and tending to our bodies and giving ourselves a pass and moments when we need to eat a good meal and just talk about whatever it is with a friend or with our families holding onto our humanity and our dignity in that way too. Those really important.Speaker 1 (42:07):Well, are there any final thoughts you want to leave folks with? I mean, I know we can't wrap this up. I know we'll likely have more conversations, but this is kind of our opening. Any final thoughts?Speaker 2 (42:23):I mean, I think just that encouragement, speaking to myself too, of being kind, being kind to ourselves, but also to other people. Not being okay with injustice, but remembering the humanity and even, I don't know, it feels hard to do, but remembering somebody's humanity, even if they're not honoring mine, the kind of person I want to be. That's hard. But I do think that that feels really important.Speaker 1 (43:09):That feels good. I think for me, I try to, like I said, find some grounding in myself and then find some folks that I can just be myself with, even just one person for the day that I can express one real emotion with one real thought, even if it's joy or happiness, but someone I know that will celebrate that with me. Or if I'm sad, someone I know I can actually cry with or just tell it, like say I'm sad today. Yeah.Speaker 3 (43:44):Yeah.Speaker 1 (43:46):Well, thank you for joining me. So good to be here on Monday, December 9th, just a week from now, Jenny McGrath of Indwell Counseling, and I link is in the notes, are going to be doing a little workshop, like one-off thing on Christian nationalism and spiritual abuse. If you're confused about what's going on in the us you feel triggered about past spiritual abuse, when you see certain elected officials and faith officials using harmful rhetoric, or are you wanting to understanding and tools to navigate this present moment, you're not alone. As you heard in our conversation. It can be very difficult. And so we just decided, hey, we'd offer this little workshop, talk a little bit about it. And then in early 2025, Jenny and I are going to be getting some groups for individuals who want to process and grieve and learn more about spiritual abuse and its various intersections with race. This is not new work for Jenny and I. We've been having this conversation for many years now, and we're also not experts. We're not here to solve all the problems or be the only resource for you, but you're invited to join. If cost is a problem, please reach out. We'll see what we can do.    Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

https://www.philallenjr.comPhil is a man driven by vision, compelled to fulfill God's calling on his life. His passion is not only to see individuals come to know and grow in a relationship with Jesus, but to see social transformation that includes addressing systems and structures that affect the everyday lives of people, especially those typically pushed to the margins because of oppression, injustices, and inequities grounded in race, gender, sexuality, ability, age, and any part of their being that does not fit the dominant group membership.As an All-American high school basketball player, Phil attended North Carolina A&T University to play basketball and study architectural engineering. Upon his call to ministry years later, he went on to receive his Bachelors in Theological Studies, with an emphasis in Christian Ministries from The King's University. While working as a full-time lead pastor of Own Your Faith Ministries (Santa Clarita, CA), Phil completed a Master of Arts in Theology degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, studying Christian Ethics. As a current PhD candidate in Christian Ethics, with a minor in Theology and Culture, his research involves race theory, theology, ethics, culture, and the theology and ethics of Martin Luther King, Jr.He is founder of the non-profit organization Racial Solidarity Project based in Los Angeles, CA. His passion for dialogue, resistance, and solutions to the problem of systemic racism was fostered by his family and personal life experiences as well as his educational journey. Phil was recently named a Pannell Center for Black Church Studies Fellow at Fuller Theological Seminary. As a fellow his research on Black Church theology, liturgy, and ethics further undergirds his own ethics of justice, healing racial trauma, and racial solidarity. He has taught undergraduate classes on biblical ethics toward racial solidarity. His fields of interest include Christian ethics, Black Church studies, race theory, pneumatology, theology of justice and theology of play and sport.When he isn't pastoring, studying, or writing, Phil enjoys running, bowling, basketball, and just watching his favorite television shows. As an all-around creative, he is an author, a teacher, pastor, filmmaker (see his documentary Open Wounds), but first a poet. His diverse experiences and interests have gifted him with the ability to relate to and inspire just about anyone he meets.He is the author of two books, Open Wounds: A Story of Racial Tragedy, Trauma, and Redemption (Fortress Press, 2021) and The Prophetic Lens: The Camera and Black Moral Agency From MLK to Darnella Frazier (Fortress Press, 2022).Speaker 1 (00:13):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and the church. And tune in and listen to this conversation today. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr and myself are going to have a conversation today. And if you go to his website, phil allen jr.com, you can see that his quote is Justice Matters, my neighbors Matter, creation matters, faith Matters. And really in this conversation, I want you to pay attention to those points that he makes in this quote from his website and how that filters through in the research he does in the point of view he's bringing to the table for this conversation on what are we doing? And I think a lot of people are like, are we still talking about the Yes, we're still talking about it. Yes. It's still relevant and we're talking about it because from understanding creates pathways towards action, towards organizing, towards being together with one another in community so that we can support justice, so that we can support our neighbors so that we have faith in creator. And so I want to encourage you to listen through that lens. Go find his website, phil allen jr.com. Look up this amazing man, this professor, he's got a podcast, he's got books, poetry speaking, a documentary. Don't hesitate to reach out, but as you listen, focusing on justice Neighbor and creation and Faith.(01:48):Yeah. What has it been like for you since the election? Or what's that been likeSpeaker 2 (01:57):Since the election? The first couple of days were, I was a bit numb. I was very disappointed in 2016. I wasn't surprised. I had this feeling that he was going to win, even though people thought Hillary would win. I just didn't have the confidence in those battleground swing state. I thought he represented something that a lot of people in this country are drawn to. And this year I really felt like she was going to win. Vice President Harris was going to win because of the coalition, because of the momentum. People can critique and criticize her campaign, but there's nothing orthodox about starting a hundred days before. And I think what they did was calculated. I won't say perfect, but it was good. It was a solid campaign given what she had to work with. And I really thought she would win. And I was just extremely disappointed. It was like this heaviness over me, but then after day two, things started to feel a little bit lighter. I just put things in perspective. I wasn't going to sulk and sit in some sadness because this man won. I think I was more disappointed in the people like what is our standard, particularly Christians, conservative Christians, what is the standard now? How low is the bar?(04:04):And honestly, I don't know if there's anyone else on the planet, any other demographic that could have done that with 34 felonies saying the things that he says about people of color, about women, about veterans. I mean, he just literally does not care. There's no man or woman of color. There's no woman, there's no one else that could do that. And people would ignore everything, do theological gymnastics and to justify everything and still vote for 'em. No one else could pull it off. And I think for me, it just solidified the type of country we live in. So I'm good now, as good as I can be. I can't change it, so I'm not going to sulk and be sad. I'm going to continue to do the work that God has called me to do and continue to chat, put a video out. I think you may have seen it on social media just to put my thoughts out there, put words to my feelings and just move forward. Yep.Speaker 1 (05:24):When you think about, is it okay if I ask you a couple of questions?Speaker 3 (05:28):Yeah.Speaker 1 (05:29):When you think about your research and completing your PhD and the theory and work and the evidence and structures you uncovered in that research, then how does that continue to frame your outlook for where we are today? ItSpeaker 2 (05:52):Couldn't, this election was interesting. This election confirmed for me, my research,Speaker 1 (05:59):Yes.Speaker 2 (06:02):I'll give you one part of it. In my research I talk about the plantation complex and it's made up of three major categories and there are subcategories under each one, organizing properties, modes of power, and operating practices. Three major categories Under organizing properties, there are four properties I list. I'm not saying it's an exhaustive list. Someone else might come in and want to tweak it and change it. That's fine. What I came up with is for vision covenant, spatial arrangement and epistemology, and specifically theological scientific epistemology, specifically white racial covenant. For those two, those are the specific terms I use. And to me, vice President Harris asked a question, this is about what kind of country do we want? That's a statement about what kind of vision do you have? Would you like to see this country embody? So vision is always there. We're always talking about, we're always casting vision when we tell stories, when we talk about how we want the, whether it's the education system, immigration, whatever. We're casting a vision, but what do we want to see? And then that ends up driving so much of what weSpeaker 3 (07:45):Do.Speaker 2 (07:48):We have the vision now of this is what America wants.Speaker 1 (07:52):Yes,Speaker 2 (07:54):They want this man with all, he's not just a flawed human being, in my opinion. He's a vile human being. She also is not a perfect candidate. She's a decent woman. She's a decent person. Two vastly different visions for this country. Then you talk about spatial arrangement. Electoral college is about spatial arrangement. You have your blue states, your red states, but everything comes down to five or six. Sometimes one state decides the election, and it all depends on who's living in that state, how are the districts redrawn. All types of stuff can play out. But to me, I saw that going on and then I saw white racial covenant play out. You look at who voted for who, percentage wise, and I kept seeing this allegiance, this covenant with Donald Trump, and there had to have been independents and even some Democrats that voted for him to have voted at such a high clip when his base is only 37%, 40% at most, and a Republican party is half. And he gets, I don't know. I just started to see those things play out. And from my dissertation, just those four categories, the stuff that we don't even pay attention to, they shape society, vision, spatial arrangement, covenant whose allegiance, who has your allegiance, because that drives decision making that drives what you value. It influences what you value. And epistemology, theological, scientific epistemology, he's the chosen one.(10:03):God chose him for such a time as the, I keep hearing this language. So they're using theological language to justify everything about this man. So yeah.Speaker 1 (10:18):Yeah.Speaker 2 (10:19):It's hard for me not to see through that lens. Now that I spent six years researching it, it's hard for me not to see through those lenses the lens of power, how power is operating, what type of power is operating and the practices and all that stuff.Speaker 1 (10:38):There's so much you said that I know we could jump into. Particularly when you talk about the white racial covenant. I was struck at, there's intersection between our research areas, and I was thinking about in grad school before I even got into my post-grad research, I wrote about three things for the Latinx Latino community that kind of inform the way white supremacy has infiltrated our lives. One is silence, one is compliance, and then lastly is erasure. And as we saw the swing, and they've talked ad nauseum about Latinos when we are a minimal part of the electoral vote, but they've talked ad nauseum about the movement specifically of men. But when you think of the demand to be silent over centuries, the demand to comply, and then the sense that maybe I can erase myself and what can I trade in for the good graces to get into the good graces of white racial identity and vote against my own best interests, vote against protecting my community, vote against even maybe even protecting my grandma or my kid that's on daca, et cetera. What was the cost? And as you were explaining that, I was seeing it through that lens that you were describing.Speaker 2 (12:17):Yep, yep. What's interesting is one of the practices, I talk about tokenization on the plantation or some would say tokenism, and there's always white racial covenant is not just among white people.(12:42):It's anyone from any group, including my community. Those who want, they want to be in closer proximity to whiteness. They want to be accepted into the white way of being. And when I say whiteness, you understand what I'm saying? I'm not just talking about white persons or white ethnicity. We're talking about a way of being in the world, a lens through which you see the world and move in that. And you can be a person of color and totally embrace whiteness, internalize that it only takes a few to then that's an effort to legitimize it, to legitimize. See, look at those. Look at that black guy or that Latino seed. They get it, and it further legitimizes that worldview.Speaker 1 (13:38):Yeah. I know for me, I felt so deeply, I don't think disappointment is the right word, but maybe I felt betrayed, but also I felt deeply, I just felt the weight of what centuries have done. And then I think it was like a Sunday afternoon where he's in Madison Square Garden using the most vile of comments, the most vile of comments to degrade our race, our ethnicity, where we come from, and then to turn around and garner a vote. I mean, it fits into your theory.Speaker 2 (14:26):So think about what he said when he first ran in 2016. I can stand on Fifth Avenue in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and I won't lose any votes. Now, fast forward to 2024 in Madison Square Garden, the lineup, the things he said, he didn't condemn anything. He invites white supremacists into his home for dinner. He welcomes them. He literally does not care because he understands the allegiance, not just from his base, but even those adjacent to his base. And that's why I keep saying, how low is this bar that you can have those people? Because everyone thought, oh, this is it. That just killed it for 'em. It did not matter. No, it did not matter. Some of it is, I think based on race, and some of it is based on gender. Some of it's a combination of both. And that's why I said in my video, she didn't stand a chance anytime people kept saying, we need to hear more and I need to get to know her more. Well, what are you watching?Speaker 3 (15:47):WhatSpeaker 2 (15:47):Else do you need to know? She's told her whole story over and over again. She's literally laid out bullet point, what she wants to do. What else is there half the people who say that don't even understand these concepts anyway?Speaker 3 (16:04):Yeah,Speaker 2 (16:05):They don't understand it. They're not understand this stuff.Speaker 1 (16:11):I guess what you say, really, it triggered something in my mind and see what you do with it. He stood in Madison Square Garden, and I actually wonder now, looking at it with the lens of a tiny bit of space that maybe if even that was riveting for people, even some of the adjacent people of color that voted for him, because it's riveting that someone could have that much power and get away with it and move in the world without consequence. And I think a lot of people are looking for that sort of autonomy or freedom to move or it's appealing. The power of it is appealing in a way that I didn't think about it before you said it, and I don't know that that's it, but I get curious about it because it definitely didn't take any votes away.Speaker 2 (17:09):And I'm glad you used the word curious because we're just theorizing right now, sharing opinions how we feel. And so I'm curious as well about a lot of these things. I'm just at a loss for words. I don't even know how to wrap my mind around that. I do think is an appeal though. I do think there is in my dissertation that the type of power that I talk about is autocratic ideological power where the ideology, it's not a person, the autonomous sovereign power. And I borrowed from Fuko, so I'm using a little bit of fuko, Michelle Fuko, and he uses the term sovereign power like king, a dictator, Vladimir Putin type of person. And I'm saying, don't have a king. And it's not one person with that type of autonomy, but there's an ideology that has that type of autonomy and we can add appeal, and it's the ideology of white supremacy. And it's almost like, well, he should be able to get away with that subconsciously. Not saying that people are saying that consciously, but it's almost like it's normalized like he should because had she said any of those things, oh, she shouldn't say those things. How dare she?(18:44):Or if Obama, when Obama said they clinging to their guns and their religion, they wanted to crucify. He shouldn't say those things. How dare he? But Trump can say, grab him by the lose no votes,Speaker 1 (19:04):Right?Speaker 2 (19:06):I don't like some of the things that he says. I wish he would tone down some of the things that he says, but so there's an autonomy. So where is it? Is it in him or is it in the ideology that he embodies? And it's appealing because so many people can share in that on different levels. So the idea is that if you go back to the plantation, every white person had some level of power over a black body and immunity, unless they got in trouble with a slave owner for killing or damagingSpeaker 1 (19:45):Property.Speaker 2 (19:47):But every person on every level shared to varying degrees in this autocracy of ideology, autocracy of white supremacy, same thing is happening today. So he can say it, the comedian can say it, congressmen and women can say it, Marjorie till green can say whatever she wants. Gates can say, I mean, these people can say whatever they want, especially if they're in closer proximity to him because he is the ultimate right now, the ultimate embodiment of the superiority of whiteness. And so there is this subconscious, I think, appeal to that. How we are drawn to the bad guy in the film. We're drawn to the villain in the wrestling match. We just kind of drawn to them a bit. There's an appeal to that type of power and to get away with it. So I like that word appeal to it,Speaker 1 (21:04):Man. I mean, I started getting really scared as you were talking because this power and this appeal and the way you're describing it, well, how did you say it? The ideology or is, what did you call it? Autonomous powerSpeaker 2 (21:27):Autocratic. Ideological power.Speaker 1 (21:29):Autocratic. Ideological power isn't just one person. It's embodied in this feeling. And that I think fits with the way I'm thinking. I got scared as you were talking because it's been hyper-focused on immigration and on a certain group of people so you can gain proximity to power. And I kind of wonder how is that going to play out? How will people play that out in their imaginations or in their communities is like what gets them closer to that power? Especially if, I mean, we could debate on tariffs and all that stuff, but no one I'm hearing from is telling me that tariffs are going to bring down the cost of goods. I've heard that nowhere. So then what are you going to do if you feel more hopeless and you're part of that working, let's say white or white adjacent class, where will you focus your energy? What can you control? So I think as you were talking, I started getting scared. I was like, this is a dangerous thing.Speaker 2 (22:34):So here's what I've told someone. Sadly, the only person who could have beaten Trump in 2020 was Joe Biden, a white man. A white woman wouldn't have been able to do it. Black woman, black man, Latino, Asian. It took a white man because people still needs to be, they needed to vote against him. They needed to see themselves. That's the majority of the country. They need to see themselves. Biden wasn't the best candidate by far. No, but he was the only one who could beatSpeaker 1 (23:16):Trump.Speaker 2 (23:17):Now, he wasn't going to win this election, even though Trump has shown signs over the last year or so of aging, doesn't matter. He's loud and boisterous. So he gets a little bit of a pass. But guess what? If that hopelessness sets in the left, the Democrats are going to have to present another white man. You're not going to beat the part. You're not going to win the next election with someone other than a white man to beat this. He is the embodiment. He is the golden calf. You need at least a beige calf. You're not going to win the next election with with someone that looks like me or you, or its going to be, that's the sad part. So with that hopelessness, if they feel that and they feel like, okay, it is been the last four years has not been what he's promised, you're going to have to present them with an alternative that's still adjacent, at least in aesthetics, optics. And then you might, after that, if everything is going well, now someone can come off of that. This is the unfortunate reality. Biden is the only one that was going to be able to beat him in 2020, and I think it's going to take the same thing in 2020. It's definitely going to take a man because he's got the movement, the masculine movement. He's brought that up to serve. It's going to take a man to do it. Unfortunately, a woman may not be able to push back against that, but I think it's going to have to take a white man.Speaker 1 (25:08):Yeah, I think you're right. I don't think another female can win against him. There's no waySpeaker 2 (25:15):He embodies the ideology of white in his posture, his tone, his rhetoric, his height, everything about him embodies, if you look at the history in this country of whiteness is the physical manifestation of it. And I'm not the only one that has said that.Speaker 1 (25:37):No,Speaker 2 (25:39):He is not just a physical manifestation. He is, at least in this era, he is the manifestation of it. He is the embodiment of it, attitude and everything.Speaker 1 (25:59):Yeah, I guess you just find me silent because I believe you. It's true. There's no doubt in my mind. And it's also stunning that this is where we're at, that people, again, I mean to fall back on what you've researched, people chose the plantation owner,Speaker 2 (26:31):And many people who do don't see themselves in the position of the enslaved,Speaker 1 (26:39):No,Speaker 2 (26:39):They see themselves as benefiting from or having favor from the plantation owner. They're either the overseer or the driver, or they're one of the family members or guests on the plantation. But no one's going to willingly choose a system that they don't benefit from. So they believe they will benefit from this, or they're willing to accept some treatment for the promise of prosperity. That's the other issue that we have. People see this. They see the world through an economic lens only. For me, I got to look at the world through a moral lens, an ethical lens. That's how I'm trained, but that's just how I've always been. Because if I look at it through an economic lens, I'll put up with anything, as long as you can put money in my pocket, you can call me the N word. If that's my, you can probably call me the N word. As long as you put money in my pocket, I'll tolerate it. And that's unfortunately how people see, again, when people talk about the economy, how many people understand economics,Speaker 1 (27:53):Honestly, whatSpeaker 2 (27:54):Percentage they do understand how much it's costing me to pay these groceries. What they don't understand is the why underneath all that, because I think they did one thing they could have done better. The Democrats is explain to people corporate greed. The cost of living is always going up. It may drop a little bit, but it's always doing this.Speaker 1 (28:29):But Phil, I would argue back with you that I don't think these people wanted to understand.Speaker 2 (28:35):You don't have to argue. I agree. ISpeaker 1 (28:38):Talked to some folks and I was like, dude, tariffs, your avocado's going to be $12. They mostly come from Mexico. How are you going to afford an avocado? And it's like, it didn'tSpeaker 2 (28:52):Matter. The golden calf.Speaker 1 (28:57):The golden calf, Elliot comes back. I mean, I want to work to make these people, in a sense, ignorant. I want to work to think of it like that, not because it benefits me, but maybe it does. To think that some people didn't vote with the ideas that we're talking about in mine, but they absolutely did.Speaker 2 (29:23):And I think you're dead on. It's a willingness or unwillingness to want to know. I'm just simply saying that many don't. You may see people interviewed on television or surveys, or even when you talk to people, I'm just simply saying they don't really understand. I got three degrees. I still need to read up and study and understand economics. That's not my field, right? So I'm still learning the nuances and complexities of that, but I'm a researcher by nature. Now most people aren't. So I'm just simply saying that they just don't know. They think they know, but they really don't. But a more accurate description of that is what you just said. Most people are unwilling to know. Because here's the thing, if you learn the truth about something or the facts about something, now you're forced to have to make a decision you might not want to make.Speaker 1 (30:28):Exactly. That's exactly right. Yep.Speaker 2 (30:35):It's like wanting to ban books and erase history and rewrite history. Because if you really did, to this day, whether I'm teaching or having conversations, I share basic stuff, stuff about history. And there's so many people that I never knew that, and I knew this stuff when I was a kid. I never knew that. What are we learning? Is everything stem.Speaker 1 (31:11):When Trump referenced the operation under Eisenhower Wetback, operation Wetback, I knew about that. I had researched it after high school in college, and I knew at that point, part of the success of that project was that they were able to deport citizens and stem the tide of, they didn't want them having more kids or reproducing, so they got rid of entire families. That was very intentional. That's purposeful. And so when they talk about deporting criminals, well, there just aren't that many criminals to deport. But for the Latino to understand that they would have to give up the idea that they could become adjacent to that power structure and benefit.Speaker 2 (32:12):Absolutely.Speaker 1 (32:14):YouSpeaker 2 (32:14):Have to give up something.Speaker 1 (32:15):You have to give up something. And so they traded in their grandma, literally, that's what's going to happen.Speaker 2 (32:27):And so now there's a connection between the golden calf and fear. So not only is he the idol, but he has the rhetoric to tap the fear, the anxiety. And when you've been in majority for a few hundred years now, the idea of no longer being the majority in the country scares a lot of people. It doesn't scare people of color. We don't really think about it because we've always been the minority. And I don't think one group is going to be the majority, maybe the Latino community because of immigration one day, maybe, probably not in my lifetime, but most of us are used to being in the minority that scares the dominant group, the white group. I've had conversations within the church years ago where this anxiety, not just with Latinos, but Muslims,Speaker 1 (33:41):Yep, MuslimsSpeaker 2 (33:42):As well. This fear that they're having so many more babies than we are, and how they try to pull people of color who are Americans into this by saying they're trying to have more babies than Americans. So now they want us to also have this fear of the other. So you got the idol who has the rhetoric to tap into the sentiments,Speaker 1 (34:13):Right? Yeah. Sorry, keep going. No,Speaker 2 (34:15):Go on. Go, go.Speaker 1 (34:17):Well, I mean, it just brings up the whole idea of when he said, the migrants are taking the black jobs. I was like, what jobs are these? And the intent is only to divide us.Speaker 2 (34:31):Yes. So I've had conversations with some African-Americans who I know are not, I know these people. These are just random people. They're not as in tune with politics. They're just kind of speaking the taglines that they heard. And I said, what jobs are they taking? And they can't answer that. But it's the same thing that happened 400 years ago almost. When they created the very terms white and black. There was this revolt among poor whites and poor and enslaved black people, particularly in Virginia. And I'm thinking of Bacon's Rebellion and how do you defeat that coalition? You divide them, you find a way to divide them. How's that? They came up with the term 1670s. They came up with the term white and black, and they had a range, I think it was somewhat white, almost white. White, somewhat black, almost black, black. But they had the termed white and black. And if you were of European descent, you could now be considered a white person. And with that came privileges, or as WEB, the voice would say the wages of whiteness, theSpeaker 1 (35:55):WagesSpeaker 2 (35:55):Of you could own property. And if you own a certain amount of property, you could vote. You could be a citizen. You had freedom of mobility. If you were black, you were meant to be enslaved in perpetuity. So now the poor whites, even though they did not benefit from slavery,Speaker 3 (36:20):BecauseSpeaker 2 (36:22):The free enslaved Africans took the opportunities from poor whites who were able to work the land and earn some type of money, but now you've got free labor. So slavery actually hurt them. And the hierarchy, it hurt them. Wealthy white folks did not look well upon for white people. But why were they so had such allegiance? Because they had this identity, this membership into whiteness. And at least they weren't on the bottom.Speaker 1 (37:04):At least they weren't on the bottom. That's right.Speaker 2 (37:07):And so the same tactic is happening here is find a way to divide black and brown, divide black and Palestinian divide, because you knew black women were going to vote 90 plus percent. I thought black men would be 80 plus percent. Turns out they were 78, 70 9%. I thought black men would've been a little bit higher than that, but you knew black folks were going to vote in mass. But you find a way to divide and separate others from that coalition.Speaker 1 (37:53):Yeah. Well, here we are, Phil. What gives you, and I know we could talk about this for a long time. What are you operating on right now? I know you said you're not going to wallow in the sadness at the very beginning, but what is your organizing moment? What is your faith compelling you to do in this moment? How do you see the coming year?Speaker 2 (38:19):I am doubling down on my voice being more direct, being more the truth teller. I never want to lose truth with grace. I don't want to become the thing I disdain, but it is through my writing that I'm now doubling down and able to publish and put out what I believe is truth. It's factually based evidence-based. Some may call controversial, some may not. I don't know. But that's where I put my energy because I have more energy now to do that since I graduated, so I can invest more time, whether it's working on my next book, project op-Eds articles in the next year. So that's what I'm hoping to write. I'm hoping to take a lot of what I learned in the last six years and put it out there for the world. So it is just motivating me even more, whether it's poetry, academic stuff, teaching, and I've already been doing some of that. I just have the energy now to engage more.Speaker 1 (39:54):And sadly, you have more material to work with.Speaker 2 (39:57):Yeah, yeah, that'sSpeaker 1 (39:59):True. It's happening in real time. Yeah,Speaker 2 (40:03):Real time.Speaker 1 (40:05):Well, how can folks get ahold of you if they want to invite you to be part of their group or to come speak orSpeaker 2 (40:12):Easiest would be phil allen jr.com. And they can go to, and you can email me through there, social media on Instagram, Phil Allen Jr. PhD, Facebook at Phil Allen Jr. Not the author page, the personal page. I'm still trying to delete the author page, but for whatever reason, Facebook makes it very difficult to delete your own page.Speaker 1 (40:42):They do,Speaker 2 (40:44):But Phil Allen Jr. My personal page is on Facebook. Those are only two social media platforms I have other than threads. Phil Allen, Jr. PhD on Instagram and Threads, Phil Allen Jr. On Facebook, Phil Allen jr.com, and those are the ways to reach me.Speaker 1 (41:04):How can folks get ahold of the writing you've already done in your research and read more about what we've been talking about? How can they get ahold of what you've already done?Speaker 2 (41:15):So my first two books, open Wounds and the Prophetic Lens, you can get 'em on Amazon, would love it if you could purchase a copy and after you've read, even if you read some of it and you felt led to leave a review, that helps. I'm currently revising my dissertation so that it's more accessible, so I'm changing, you get it, the academic language, that's not my true voice. So I'm trying to revise that so I can speak and sound more like me, which is more of a poetic voice. So I want to write in that sweet spot where it's still respected and used in academic spaces, but it's more accessible to people beyond academia who are interested in the subject matter. So that hopefully, I've been shopping it to publishers and I'm still shopping. So hopefully, if not next fall, hopefully by early 2026, that book can be published.Speaker 3 (42:21):Okay.Speaker 2 (42:24):The dissertation, you can go to ProQuest and you can type in my name Phil Allen Jr. You can type in the plantation complex.Speaker 3 (42:35):Okay.Speaker 2 (42:36):No, not the Plantation Complex America. The PlantationSpeaker 1 (42:41):America, the Plantation.Speaker 2 (42:43):That's the title. And it's on proquest.com. That's where dissertations are published. So right now, it may cost something to read it, to get ahold of it, but you can look for it there until we revise and rewrite and publish the book.Speaker 1 (43:01):I'm really looking forward to, I haven't read your dissertation, but I want to, and I'm really looking forward to reading that book that's coming out.Speaker 2 (43:09):Thank you. Yes. And my YouTube channel, I don't really talk much. You can just type in my name, Phil Allen, Jr. There's quite a few spoken word videos, some old sermons I on there as well.Speaker 1 (43:25):Okay. Thank you, Phil.Speaker 2 (43:29):Lemme stop. Thank you.Speaker 1 (43:32):Thank you for joining us today, and I'm just honored to be in conversation with folks that are on this journey. We are not alone. If you need other kinds of resources, please don't hesitate to look up in our notes, some of the resources we listed in previous episodes, and also take good care of your bodies. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. In the Words and Voice of Rebecca W. Walston:Anticipatory intelligence  is a phrase that I heard at a seminar talking about racial trauma. The speaker whose name I can't remember, was talking about this idea of a kind of intelligence that is often developed by marginalized people. And because this was a seminar on racial trauma in the United States, her examples were all primarily around racialized experiences as the United States understand that sense of racialized society. And so the idea of anticipatory intelligence is the amount of effort or energy that we put in emotionally, mentally, psychologically, to anticipating how our bodies and the stories that they represent will be received in a space that we are in before we get there.Speaker 1 (00:18):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. In this episode, I get to interview my dear friend, Rebecca Wheeler Walston, and we are talking about anticipatory intelligence. I think all of us, or at least most of the people I speak with lately when I'm like, how are you doing? They're like, and they're like, well, that's a complicated answer. And it definitely is. There's an underlying sense of unease, of discontent, of just a lack of surety, about what is going to come next in the new year that I think I haven't felt for a long time. The collective sense that I have right now as you listen to this episode and take a sneak peek into some of the conversations Rebecca and I have had for a while, I encourage you to be kind to your body Again. I've put in previous episodes, resources, get out, get mental health care, spend time with friends, play, go play pickleball, get out in the snow, read a good book, text a friend, call a friend.(01:37):Do the things that connect you back to life giving activities. Find your spiritual practices, light candles, take a bath. All these things that therapists often say are helpful. I mean, maybe it's you go hug a tree or put your feet, your literal bare feet in the dirt. I don't know what it is for you, but leaning on the people and the resources in your area and also leaning on things that connect you back to groundedness, to feeling in your body. And so those are the things that I do. I enjoy lately eating Honey Nut Cheerios. Sounds weird. I love Dry Honey Nut Cheerios. I don't know why, but I let myself indulge in that. So again, I'm not prescribing anything to anyone. This is not a prescription, a diagnosis, a treatment plan. It is saying, how can you find ways to ground yourself in really good healthy ways that you can actually care for your good body?(02:50):I don't enjoy talking about anxiety. I don't love it. In fact, talking about it sometimes I feel really anxious in the moment my heart starts pounding, I get sweaty hands, et cetera. And yet there is something grounding for me about stepping into shared realities with my friends or neighbor, colleague or family. And so this is a reality that Rebecca and I have been talking about. What is anticipatory intelligence? And I'm going to let her jump in and start it off here. Hey, Rebecca, I know you and I chat a lot, and part of our talks are like, Hey, how you doing? Hey, how am I doing? And a while back when I reached out to you and said, Hey, let's do this thing way before the election on anxiety and race. And you're like, wait a minute. I want to talk about this thing called anticipatory intelligence. And so I want to hear about that from you. What is that?Speaker 2 (03:51):Hey, Danielle, as always, Hey, hey,(03:56):Post 2024 election, I'm going to just take a huge breath and say that I've had this low grade sort of nausea in my gut for at least a week, if not longer. So yeah, let's talk. So anticipatory intelligence is a phrase that I heard at a seminar talking about racial trauma. The speaker whose name I can't remember, was talking about this idea of a kind of intelligence that is often developed by marginalized people. And because this was a seminar on racial trauma in the United States, her examples were all primarily around racialized experiences as the United States understand that sense of racialized society. And so the idea of anticipatory intelligence is the amount of effort or energy that we put in emotionally, mentally, psychologically, to anticipating how our bodies and the stories that they represent will be received in a space that we are in before we get there.(05:23):So it's that notion of I'm a black woman, I'm getting ready to go to a function that I anticipate will likely be predominantly white. And the kind of internal conversation I have with myself about what that's going to feel like look like to enter the question in my mind of how safe or how dangerous might the environment be to me racially? So the first piece of anticipatory intelligence is that sort of internal conversation that we may be having with ourselves as we step into a circumstance. The second piece of that is when we arrive in the space and we start to read the room,(06:12):Read the faces of the people in the room, and this work of how close was my hypothesis or my theory about my reception in the room to what I'm actually seeing and feeling and hearing in the room as I enter the space is that sort of second piece of anticipatory intelligence. And then the third piece of it is really this question of how do I navigate that answers to those first two questions? And so what is my body, my brain, my emotions, my spirit, my gut, all of it doing with what I'm reading of the faces in the room and the reaction to me being there could be a positive space. I could get there and realize that the people in the room are all receptive to my presence and what I'm reading and feeling is a sense of welcome and warmth and an invitation for all of me to be in the room. And then what does that feel like in terms of the letdown of anxiety and the ability to absorb that sense of welcome and to participate in that sense of welcome? Or it could be a hostile environment. And what I'm reading is something that isn't welcome,(07:44):Something that feels like fill in the blank, resentment, who knows?(07:53):And then what does my body do with that? What does my gut do with that? What does my emotions, what does my spirit do? And how do I react and respond to what I'm actually reading in the room? So you can hear that sense of three steps, and sometimes that can happen over a matter of days, weeks as we build up to something. Sometimes that can happen in a matter of seconds as we enter a room, but the amount of effort and energy that is expended and the idea that you can actually develop a very well thought through grid for this as a kind of intelligence that can be yours individually might belong to your group. Collectively idea of how we anticipate and then how we engage a space based on and in this race, it could be extended to gender,Speaker 3 (08:58):ReligionSpeaker 2 (09:00):In this day and age, probably politics and any other places where we find intersectionality of the pieces of our identity.Speaker 1 (09:11):I had to take a deep breath because it is this giant reframing and pathologizing of what a lot of us walk around with, which is an internal disruption as we move from space to space.Speaker 2 (09:29):Yeah, I think that's true. And I mean, I think about it as a black woman, as a black mother raising two kids, I have taught my kids this notion of, I didn't call it that there's too many syllables and SAT words, but I have taught my kids a sense of pay attention to people and places and sounds and vibes and nonverbal communication and verbal communication and learn to interpret and decipher and then do what is necessary to keep yourself safe and do what is necessary to enjoy and participate in places where you're actually welcome.Speaker 1 (10:17):When that intersects with the concepts of Western psychology, let's say, where we're as a part of that system, there's this constant move to how do we heal anxiety, how do we work towards calm? How do we work towards finding a quote safe space? And I think it's becoming more and more evident in our current society. It's evident to many before, but I think some people are jostled into the reality that there might not be that safe space or you might have to understand anxiety differently than the western psychological framework. Have you thought about that?Speaker 2 (11:04):Yeah. I mean, couple of things, right? Is that in western sort of psychological space, the phrase that's usually engaged is something called hypervigilant. This idea that the time you spend reading a room and your sense of threat and the need to be vigilant about your own safety, the concept of hypervigilance is to say that you're overreactingSpeaker 3 (11:36):ToSpeaker 2 (11:37):The space and you have a kind of vigilance that is unnecessary. You have a kind of vigilance that is a trigger to some threat that doesn't actually exist. And therefore you as the person who is doing this anticipatory work, needs to rea acclimate to the room and engage the room as if you are safe and to reimagine or recalibrate your sense of threat to an idea that it doesn't exist and it's not there. And one of the things that I would pose is that's a false reality for marginalized people in the United States. The sense of a lack of safety is present and it's real. And therefore, could we be talking about a necessary kind of vigilance as opposed to an over reactive hypervigilance?(12:45):So that's kind of one way that I think is a necessary exploration, and it requires the country to wrestle with the truth and the why and how of the lack of safety for marginalized people, whether that is on racial lines or gender lines or whatever power structure we are engaging. There's always the question of those in power and those who are not. And if in that moment you are in the category of the disempowered and the disenfranchised, then a sense of your own vigilance might actually be the wisest, kindest thing you can do. And the error of modern psychology to pathologize that is the problem. The other thing that I think about because you use the word safety, and I did too often, and of the growing belief that the idea that I can be safe in an absolute sense is probably a misnomer at best, an illusion at worst. And so there can there be this sense of safer environments or safe ish environments or even the suggestion that I've heard in recent years of a sense of bravery instead of safety, the ability for the space, the room to hold, the idea that if there's a power differential, there's going to be a safety differential.(14:31):And so the question is not am I safe? The question is the level of courage or bravery that I may need to access in order to step into a room and note that there is a certain amount of of safety.Speaker 1 (14:50):And I think that can be played out on all levels. I mean, I attended a training on immigrant rights and one of the things they mentioned is that ICE has the ability, the immigration service has the ability to use a digital format on online form to write their own warrant. Now, we know that regular police cannot write their own warrant.(15:16):We know that ice can also obtain a warrant through the courts, but when you have an empowered police body to write their own warrant, even if you're not in an immigrant, what is a sense that you're going to actually be safe or you're going to walk into a room where there are those power differentials no matter what your race or ethnicity is. If you are not of the dominant class, what's the sense that you're going to feel safe in that power differential? I think as I hear you say, I don't want to go to the extreme that it's an illusion, but I do agree that each step out is a step of bravery. And some days we may have the bravery and the data points that say, despite this anticipation of potential harm, I'm going to be able to work through that today and I'm going to be with people who can work through that with me, even through the power differential. And I think in the coming days, and there's going to be times when we say I can't step into that space because of what I anticipate, not because I'm a coward, but because it may lead to more harm than I can metabolize.Speaker 2 (16:27):Yeah, I mean the word safe has its problem. So does the word brave, right? Because again, the weight of that word is on the marginalized person in many ways to push path, the power differential and show up anyway. And there's something about that weight and the imbalance of it that feels wildly unfair, but historically true.(17:00):And so what I love about your sense of there might be some days I do not have it in me, and then can we come to that moment with the reverence and the kindness and the sanctity that deserves for me and my individual capacity to say I don't have it today? And I say that knowing that most of us come from, I come from a cultural backdrop, a collective story around blackness and the black bravery and black courage and black power and black rights. That doesn't always give me space to say I don't have it in me. I don't have that bravery today. I don't have access to it. I come from a cultural narrative that screams we shall overcome in a thousand different ways. And so you can hear in that both a hope and then a demand that you find the capacity in every moment to overcome. And we don't have a lot of stories where you get to say, I don't have it. And I have some curiosity for you as a Latino woman, do you have those stories, those cultural narratives that give you permission to say, I don't have access to the kind of bravery that I need for today?Speaker 1 (18:40):That's a really good question. As you were speaking, I was thinking of the complexity of the constructed racial identity for Latinos, which is often a combination as you know, we've talked about it, a lot of indigenous African and then European ancestry. And so I often think of us coming into those spaces as negotiators. How do we make this okay for dominant culture folks? Can we get close enough to power to make it okay? Which is a costly selling out of one part of ourselves. And I think the narrative is like when you hear nationally, why do Latinos vote this way even though the electoral percentage is so low compared to dominant culture folks? So I think the question we have to wrestle with is what part of our identity are we going to push aside to fit in those spaces? Or sometimes the role of negotiator and access to privilege can lead to healing and good things.(19:53):And also there are spaces where we step into where that's not even on the table. It's going to be an option. And so can we step back and not have to be that designated person and say, actually, I can't do any negotiations. I don't have the power to do that. It's kind of a false invitation. It's this false sense of you can kind of belong if you do this, but you can't really belong. I want you to vote for me, but then in 30 days, 60 days, I'm going to deport you at risk to be arrested. So you have to vote against your own best interest in order to be accepted, but after being accepted, you're also rejected. So I think there's a sense for me as I ramble through it, I don't know where that permission comes from to step back, but I think we do need to take a long hard look and step backSpeaker 2 (20:57):Just listening to you. I have a sense that the invitation to your community is a little different than the invitation that has been extended to my community. And of course the extension of that invitation coming from the power structures of the western world of America, of whiteness. I hear you saying that if I'm mishearing you, let's chat. But what I hear is the sense of this notion that you can negotiate for acceptance, which I think is an invitation that has been extended to a lot of ethnic groups in the United States that do not include black people. Our history in the United States is the notion of one drop of black blood lands you in this category for which there will never be access. And I say that also knowing that part of the excitement of a candidacy of someone like Kamala Harris is the notion that somehow we have negotiated something or the possibility that we actually have negotiated a kind of acceptance that is beyond imagination. And in the days following the election, some of the conversation of literally she did everything that she has, all the degrees, she has the resume, she has this, she has that, and it wasn't enough to negotiate the deal(22:53):And the kind of betrayal. And so I started this by saying, oh no, y'all over there in Latinx spaces get to negotiate something we as black people. But I think that there's a true narrative in post civil rights post brown versus board of education that the negotiation that we are in as black people is if we get the degrees and we build the pedigree, we can earn the negotiated seat. And I think other ethnic spaces, and you tell me if this feels true to you, the negotiation has been about bloodline.Speaker 1 (23:50):Yeah, absolutely. And adjacent to that negotiated space is the idea that you wouldn't have to anticipate so much that you could walk in and feel safe or that no matter where you think about any of the presidential spaces, that Kamala Harris could walk in and she could be acceptedSpeaker 2 (24:15):And that she would bring all the rest of us with her. Yeah.Speaker 1 (24:29):I wanted to believe that this election was based on issues. And I wanted to believe that no matter where you stood on certain things that you could see through that Trump was going to be a deadly disaster for bodies of color. And yet that's not what happened.Speaker 2 (24:55):Yeah, I think, right. And my first pushback is like, he's a problem. He's a disaster not just for bodies of color. And I think there was some segment of the country making the argument that he is a detriment to a kind of ideal that affects us all regardless of race or creed or color or gender. And I am still trying to make meaning of what it means that that's not the choice we made as a country. I'm still trying to, in my head, logically balance how you could vote against your own interests. And I was watching a documentary this weekend, the US and the Holocaust, and one of the things that is true in that documentary is the fact that there has always been a strain of American life that voted against its own interest. That notion is not new. And if I try to think about that in psychological terms, I mean, how often have you seen that as a therapist, a client who makes decisions that are clearly against their own interest? And the therapeutic work is to get to a place where that is less and less true,Speaker 1 (26:38):Which I mean, I know we'll record a part two, I think of the collective meaning we are making out of this, that the sense that in the voting against our own self-interest, I can speak from my cultural background, you may say goodbye to your grandma or your brother. You may say goodbye to the friend down the street that runs a restaurant. And what does that do to your psyche? It's nothing new. We've been asked to do that for centuries. This is not new. This was introduced when colonial powers first arrived and we're asking for loyalty in exchange for some kind of a false hope of true safety. And yet when we experience this anxiety or this anticipatory intelligence, I think our bodies aren't just speaking from what's happening today, but the centuries of this was never, okay.Speaker 2 (27:48):See, again, I'm hit with that sentence reads different to me when I hear you as a Latino woman say, that's not a new negotiation for us. We've been asked to vote against our own interest from colonial days. And what does that cost you? I want to cry for that story of an immigration that sounded like it was voluntary and never actually was. And I say that feeling in my own experience, the trajectory of enslaved Africans were asked to negotiate something very different than that. What is the cost? It'll be a different kind of cost. There is a section of the black community that voted against our own interest in this election, and what does that mean and what's the story that we're telling ourselves around it in order to justify a choice? The consequences of which I think have yet to be made clear for any of us. I know that there's this anticipated, we can say the word mass deportation and think that we can anticipate the cost of that. And just from the few conversations you and I have had over the last week, I don't think any of our anticipatory work will be anywhere close to the actual cop.Speaker 1 (30:11):I think you're right. I think we will do our best based on what we've lived and tried to do for one another and for our own families to anticipate what we need, but we won't escape.Speaker 2 (30:38):I think the other thing that I think about is the cost is not just to Latinx people. There is a cost to all of us that are in proximity to you that is different and arguably far less. But I think we're missing that too. I think we're underestimating and miscalculating. There's a science fiction book that was written, I read it in college by the author's name is a guy named Derek Bell. He's a lawyer, and he wrote a book called Faces at the Bottom of the Well. And there's a chapter in the book's, a collection of short stories. There's a short story about the day all the Negroes disappeared. And the story is about this alien population from another planet who is disenchanted with the treatment of enslaved Africans. So they come to earth and they take everybody black. And the story is about what is no longer true of the planet because Africans are no longer enslaved. Africans in the US are no longer in it, on it. And all the things that are no longer true of American life, the things that will never become true of American life because of the absence of a people group. And I think that, again, we can say the phrase mass deportation and think we have some sense of what the cost of that might be. And I think we are grossly underestimating and miscalculating all the things that will not be true of American life.Speaker 1 (32:33):Yeah, I think I don't have words. I don't have a lot of explanations or what our kids will, what they're learning about life. I know we have to pause. Okay. Okay.Speaker 2 (33:09):Part two, to comeSpeaker 1 (33:10):Our cucumber. I'll catch you later. As you can see, we ended this podcast on a difficult note, and it's not a space that Rebecca and I are going to be able to resolve, and we are going to continue talking about it. So tune in to our next episode in part two. And I really think there's a lot of encouragement to be found in setting a frame and setting space for reality and what we are facing in our bodies and understanding ourselves and understanding as collectives, how this might be impacting us differently. Rebecca and I aren't speaking for everybody in our communities. They're not monoliths. We are speaking from our particular locations. Again, thank you for tuning in and I encourage you to download, share, subscribe, and share with others that that might be researching or thinking about this topic. Talk to you later. Bye.  Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Matthias Roberts is a queer  psychotherapist (in Washington State) and the author of both "Holy Runaways:Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion" and "Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms". He is one of my favorite friends I met in graduate school, a human deeply committed to connection and curiosity,  and someone who I deeply admire. With Matthias, I feel a sense of belonging and openness to understanding the world and holding space for that curiosity which is so threatening elsewhere. Rebecca W. Walston is an African American lawyer, who also holds a MA Counseling, an all around boss babe. Rebecca runs a Law Practice and serves as General Legal Counsel for The Impact Movement, Inc.  She is someone who fiercely advocates for others freedom and healing. She is a dear friend and colleague, who anyone would be lucky to spend a dinner with talking about almost anything.Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. Speaker 1 (00:18):Welcome to the Rise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. Today we're continuing our conversation on election humanity and politics. I have two guests today. I'm very excited about it. Matthias Roberts, who's a queer psychotherapist in Washington State, and the author of both Holy Runaways and Beyond Shame. Actually, he's one of my favorite friends I met in graduate school. I don't know if he knows that he's a human, deeply committed to connection and curiosity and someone I deeply admire with Matthias. I've always felt this sense of belonging and openness to understanding the world and holding space for that actual curiosity, which has seems so threatening elsewhere. So I want to thank Matthias for joining me and taking time out of his morning. And Rebecca Wheeler Walstead holds an MA in counseling an all around boss babe. Rebecca runs a law practice and serves as general legal counsel for the Impact movement, and she is someone who fiercely advocates for others freedom and healing. She's a dear friend, obviously she's a colleague and she's someone that anybody would be lucky to spend a dinner with talking about almost anything. So thank you, Rebecca, for joining me today.(01:40):I can say that for myself in my own experience, my anxiety is heightened overall and feelings that I can keep at bay with regular normal coping mechanisms such as exercise. It takes to me a little bit more and I have to offer myself a lot more grace in the process. I encourage you no matter where you are, to engage these topics with grace towards your own self, towards your neighbor, towards your family, and towards whoever's in your proximity. We won't get things done overnight no matter who we are, and we will get them done if we become more aligned and care more for those in our proximity, that means our neighbor. So if you're feeling or experiencing anxiety around the election or family or other triggers, I want you to encourage you to seek out and find someone to speak with. Maybe you need a mental health professional, maybe you need a spiritual advisor. Maybe it's your coach and it's something related to business. Maybe you need to go see your doctor for aches and pains you've been having. I don't know what it might be for you, but don't hesitate to reach out and get the help you need. We're going to jump into the conversation and voices from across the country. We are all different and we're not meant to be the same. I hope you find pieces of you in each of their stories. Hey, Rebecca. Hey, Matthias. Thanks for being with me today.Speaker 2 (03:06):Daniel, thanks for havingSpeaker 1 (03:07):Us. I just thought we would talk about this really amazing subject of politics and humanness because we're so good at it in the United States. Yeah, right. Y'all thoughts on that? Even as I say that, just politics and being human, what comes to mind?Speaker 2 (03:34):For me, there's almost a dual process happening. I think about my first thought was, well, politics are, but then I also thought about how when we separate institutions out from people, especially in the way that corporations tend to separate out how they become anti-human so quickly, and not that politics is necessarily a corporation, but I think there's a form of it. There's something corporate about it. And so I think about that juxtaposition and maybe the dichotomy there between, yeah, it's human, but I think it's also anti-human in the ways that it has to, I think almost by definition, separate from maybe these places of deep feeling or nuance in order to collapse all of that experience into something that people can rally on.Speaker 3 (04:51):I think there's something dehumanizing about our current politics, but I think that that is about power. I think when politics becomes about the consolidation of power or the perpetuation of power or the hanging on to it sort of desperately, then it no longer is about the people that the institutions and the country was built to serve and protect. And so I think there are all these ideals in our politics that on paper and in theory sound amazing, but when people in their humanness or maybe in the worst of our humanness step away from other people and not just people as sort of this collective generalized, but the actual person in front of you, the actual person in front of you and the story that they have and the life that they live, and how decisions and theories and ideals will impact the actual person in front of you. And when politics becomes about collecting power and maintaining that power at all costs, then it's no longer about people. It's no longer about lives. It's no longer about stories, and all those things become expendable in the name of the consolidation and the maintenance of power. And I think that at its heart is a human question. It's a question of selfishness and self-serving and maybe even self idolatry.Speaker 1 (06:49):I think that I agree, Matthias, I've been thinking a lot about, because in my family it's been a lot of comments like, well, we shouldn't talk about politics because we're family. I'm like, wait a minute, wait just a minute. Because the very politic that is being said from one angle is hurting the humanity of this other particular family member. How do we make sense of that? How do we say politics isn't a very human, the impact is meant to impact humans. The power is meant to impact humans, so the political sphere has become so toxic to us.Speaker 3 (07:40):Yeah, I think that sentence, we shouldn't talk about politics because we're family. It says more about maybe our fragility as a culture in this moment and our inability to have hard conversations without feeling like the difficulty of them fractures, relationships and familial bonds in ways that cannot be repaired or restored in any way. And I think it is also a statement about the toxicity of our politics that we have allowed it to get to a place where it actually threatens those kinds of familial bonds in some sense, you want go back to, you remember that book that was big in the nineties? All I ever learned about life I learned in kindergarten, right? All I ever needed to know, it reminds me of that because raising kids, I would raise my kids to say, there isn't anything on this earth that should fracture your bond as siblings. I raised them to believe that. I insisted that they engage the world from this vantage point that come hell or high water do or die is you and your sister. That's it. And it doesn't matter what happens in this world, there should never be a scenario in which that isn't true. And we have arrived at this place where people honestly believe that your political affiliation somehow threatens that.(09:19):That's sad and sad feels like a word that's not heavy enough to articulate. There's something wrong, really wrong if that's where we are,Speaker 2 (09:35):I think it speaks perhaps to our inability to do conflict well, and I'm the first, I don't do this all with my family at all. I'm terrible at conflict with my family, at least in the arena of politics. But I think about, I wonder if some of the fracturing that we say, I don't think it's all of it by any means, but is that reality of, because we can't have these conversations in our immediate family, it's getting projected into the wider, I mean, it has to play out somewhat. It is going to, that's the nature of it. So because we can't do it locally, it is having to play out on this grand scale. Rebecca, as you said, sad. I think it's horrifying too.Speaker 1 (10:44):It's what?Speaker 2 (10:45):Horrifying.Speaker 1 (10:46):Yes. It's very dangerous to be honest.Speaker 2 (10:54):It's very, yeah, those bonds, we have the familial bonds. Those are protective in some ways when we remove that, we remove those protections.Speaker 1 (11:11):I think we've been practicing at a society, and I'm talking particularly about the United States at ways of removing those bonds in multiple spheres of the way we've thought about life, the way we think about another person, the way we judge each other, the way we vote in past elections. I mean, the civil rights movement is pushing against that notion that family means dehumanizing someone else. And so even this idea of, I'm not even sure if I can say it right, but just how we've constructed the idea of family and what do our shared values mean. In some sense, it's been constructed on this false notion that someone is worth more than another person. Now, when that person shows up as fully human, then I think we don't know what to do with it.Speaker 3 (12:11):Yeah. I think something you said, Mathias about we don't do conflict well, right? I think rarely is any issue, black and white. Rarely is any issue. So clear cut and so definitive that you can boldly stand on one side or the other and stay there in perpetuity without ever having to wrestle or grapple with some complexity, some nuance. And I think maybe part of what we don't do well is that right? Somehow we've gotten to this space where we have maybe an oversimplified if that, I'm not even sure that's a good word, perspective on a number of issues as if there isn't any complexity and there isn't any nuance and there isn't any reason to pause and wonder if context or timing would change the way we think about something, right? And nor do we think that somehow changing your mind is no longer acceptable.(13:20):I think about, I saw a number of interviews with Kamala Harris. People talk to her about, well, why'd you change your mind about this or that? Why'd you change your perspective about this or that? And then part of the conversation was about when did we get to this place where growing and learning and changing your mind is bad for someone who is in the profession of holding public office since when can you not get in public office, learn some things differently, meet some new people, understand the issue better, and go, you know what? I need to change the way I think about this, but we are there. All of a sudden it means you're not fit for office, at least as it has been applied to Kamala Harris in this particular and even before her. The notion of a flip flopper is again to say you can't somehow change your mind.Speaker 2 (14:21):So that makes me start to then think about some of the myths, and I mean that deeper theological myth in the sense of not that it is untrue, but more in the sense of how it permeates culture. That's when I say myth and we have this idea or many people have this idea of a God that doesn't change, a God who doesn't change his mind as the ideal of there is right there is wrong, and the ideal is no change. And we have examples and scriptures, at least I believe, of a God who does change his mind, who sees what happens and change is what he does. And I think those can be compatible with maybe some ideas that maybe God doesn't change, but we also have examples of God changing his mind. But I think that has permeated our world of something unchanging is better than someone who or something who does change. And I wonder what that impact has beenSpeaker 3 (15:38):That made me pause. I certainly come out of a faith background of hold to God's unchanging hand. I mean, I can come up off the top of my head with a dozen different examples of the notion of he does not shift, he does not change. And the kind of comfort or solidity that can be found in this notion that we're not subject to the whim of his mood in any given time, but what you said causes me to think about it and to think about what does it mean to say that we live in a world where there is a God who can be persuaded by something in the human context that will cause him to respond or react differently than perhaps his original mindset is. I'm going to walk away from this conversation pondering that for a while. I think,Speaker 2 (16:30):Yeah, there are stories of that in scripture.Speaker 3 (16:36):The one that comes to my mind is the story of, and I'm not going to get all the names correct, so whoever's listening, forgive me for that. But the story that comes to my mind is the prophet of old who is pleaded with God for more time on earth, for more space to be alive and walk the earth as a human being. And God granted his request. And again, now there's a bit of a paradigm shift for me. What does it mean to say that I live in a world where there's a God who can be persuaded? I think the other thing when you said about a God who changes his mind, what comes up for me is also a God who holds extremely well the nuance and the complexity of our humanness and all that that means. And so often I find it's sort of the pharmaceutical attitude that we can have that things are rigid and there's only one way to see it and one way to do it. And if you ever watch Jesus's engagement with the Pharisees, it's always actually the problem is more complex than that. Actually the question you're asking is more than that. And so what matters less is the rule. What matters more is the impact of that rule. And if we need to change the rule in order for the appropriate impact, then let's do that.Speaker 1 (18:08):It's kind of gets back to something I've been learning in consultation, talking about this idea. I think we're talking about very young spaces collectively for our society. If I was to put it in that frame, the idea of as a child, a very young kid, even into your teenagers, you need to know something solid. You need to know that's not changing. That's the rule. That's what I got to do. And it's the parent's responsibility to make meaning and metabolize nuance for you and help you process through that. But one of our first developmental things is to split. This is good, this is bad, this person is safe, this person. That's a developmental process. But in somewhere we got stuck,Speaker 3 (18:54):It brings to my mind, you've heard me reference raising kids. And so I raised my kids to say this idea that you have to be respectful and thoughtful in your choices. And I always told my kid that so long as you are respectful and thoughtful in your choices, your voices will always be heard and welcomed kind of in our home. And so my daughter approached me, she's making an argument about something that I absolutely did not agree with her final conclusion. I was like, there's no version of anybody's universe where you're doing that, right? And she says to me, but you said if I was thoughtful and I was respectful that I could assert my position and I have been respectful in my tone and I've been thoughtful in my position. And she was absolutely right. Both had been true, and I found myself having to say, okay, now I sort of backed myself into a corner.(19:58):She followed me into it and the conversation ended up being about, Hey, that's true. Those are the parameters, but you're older now and the things that you're making decisions about have more impact and they're more nuanced and complex than that. So we need to add a couple more things to your rubric, and it's a hard conversation to have, but it makes me think about that developmental piece that you're saying, Danielle, that when we're younger, there's certain sort of bright line rules and the older you get and the more complex life gets, the more you need to be able to actually blur those lines a little bit and fudge them a little bit and sometimes color outside of the lines because it is the right thing to do.Speaker 2 (20:48):I think that movement from that really kind of rigid split into Rebecca what you're talking about, it requires that grappling with grief and loss, it requires that sense of even if I followed the rules, I didn't get what I wanted. And that is we have options there. We can rage against it and go back into the split, you are bad. I'm good, or actually grapple with that. I did everything I was supposed to and it still didn't work out in that words, it doesn't feel good and grieve and feel the pain of that and actually work with those parts of ourselves. And there is so much that our nation has not grieved, not repented from, and we are in the consequences of that.Speaker 1 (21:53):I was just thinking that Mathias, it's like we're asking one another to make meaning, but we're at a very base level of meaning making. We're trying to first discern, discern what is reality, and a lot of times we don't share reality, but when you're a baby, the reality is your caregiver hopefully, or even the absence of you become accustomed to that. And so I think we've become accustomed to this sense of almost this indoctrination of a certain type of religion, which I would call white evangelical Christianity, where they're telling you, I can make sense of all of this from the perspective of race. I can do that for you. Whether they talk about it explicitly or not, they're like, I can tell you what's good and bad from this perspective, but then if you add in how do you make sense of all the Christians vote for Trump and 84% of African-Americans are going to vote for Kamala Harris. I grew up thinking, are those people not Christians? I didn't know as a kid, I was raised with my father. I didn't understand, didn't make sense to me, but I thought, how could so many people as a child, I actually had this thought, how could so many people not know Jesus, but go to church and how could all these people know Jesus and say they're going to heaven? It never made sense to me.Speaker 3 (23:19):I mean, what you're saying, Danielle, is probably why there is a very clear historical and present day distinction between white evangelism and the black church. That's why those two things exist in different spaces because even from the very beginning, white evangelicalism or what became white evangelicalism advocated for slavery, and Frederick Douglass learned how to read by reading the scripture at risk to his own life and to the white slave owner who taught him how to read. And once he learned to read and absorbed the scriptures for himself, his comment is there is no greater dichotomy than the Christianity of this world and the Christianity of scripture. And so your sense that it doesn't make any sense is as old as the first enslaved African who knew how to understand the God of the Bible for him or herself and started to say out loud, we got problems, Houston.Speaker 1 (24:39):Yeah, I remember that as a young child asking that question because it just never made sense to me. And obviously I understand now, but as a kid you grow up with a certain particular family, a Mexican mom, a white father. I didn't know how to make sense of that.Speaker 3 (25:04):I mean, you say, oh, even now I understand and I want to go. You do. I don't explain that to me. I mean, there's a certain sense in which I think we're all in many ways, and I say all the country as a whole church, the American church as a whole trying to make sense of what is that, what was that and what do we do now that the modern sort of white evangelical movement is essentially the Christianity of our entire generation. And so now that that's being called into question in a way that suggests that perhaps it is white and it's religious, but it might not in fact be the Christianity of the Bible. Now what do we do? And I've spent some time in recent years with you, Danielle, in some Native American spaces in the presence of theologians who reckoned with things of God from a Native American perspective.(26:09):And if nothing else, I have learned there's a whole bunch. I don't know about what it means to walk with the God of the Bible and that my native brothers and sisters know some things I don't know, and I am kind of mad about it. I'm kind of angry actually about what it is they know that was kept from me that I was taught to dismiss because the author of those ideas didn't look like the white Jesus whose picture was in my Bible or on the vacation Bible school curriculum or whatever. I'm sort of angry at the wisdom they hold for what it means to be a follower of what I think in many native spaces they would refer to as creator, and that was withheld from me. That would've changed the way, enhanced the way I understand this place of faith. And something that white evangel and evangelicalism expressly said was heresy was of the devil was to be ignored or dismissed or dismantled or buried.Speaker 1 (27:31):I mean, you have Tucker Carlson referring to Trump as daddy in a recent speech. So you then have this figure that can say, Hey, little kids, don't worry. Your worldview is okay. It's still right and let me make sense of it. I can make sense of it for you with X, Y, Z policies with racist rhetoric and banter. I can do anything I want. I can show up in Madison Square Garden and replicate this horrific political rally and I can do it and everybody will be okay with it, even if they're not okay, they're not going to stop me. So we still have a meaning maker out there. I mean, he is not making my meaning, but he's making meaning. For a lot of folks.Speaker 3 (28:29):It is even worse than that. There's a couple of documentaries that are out now. One's called Bad Faith, the other one's called God and Country, and in one of them, I think it was Bad Faith, and they're talking about the rise of Christian nationalism. For me, as a person of faith, one of my biggest questions has always been, there's nothing about this man's rhetoric that remotely reflects anything I ever learned in every Sunday school class and every vacation Bible school, in every Bible study and every church service I've ever been to. He is boldly antithetical to all of it.(29:06):And he says that out loud, right back to his comments about, no, I've never asked God for forgiveness because I've never done anything that warranted forgiveness that is antithetical to the heart of evangelical Christianity that asserts that the only way to God and to heaven in the afterlife is through the person of Jesus Christ. And so every person has to admit their own sin and then accept Christ as the atonement for that sin. And he bluntly says, I don't do that. Right. So my question has always been, I don't get it right. Two plus two is now four in your world. So how are 80% of evangelicals or higher voting for this man? And in that movie, bad faith, they talk about, they make reference to the tradition of Old Testament scripture of a king who is not a follower of God, who God sort of uses anyway towards the bent of his own will.(30:18):And there's probably a number of references in Old Testament scripture if I was an Old Testament theologian, some of the people who have invested in me, I could give you names and places and dates. I can't do that. But there is a tradition of that sort of space being held and the notion what's being taught in some of these churches on Sundays and on Wednesday night Bible study is that's who he is. That's who Trump is in a religious framework. And so he gets a pass and permission to be as outlandish and as provocative and as mean spirited and as dare I say, evil or bad as he wants to be. And there is no accountability for him in this life, or the next one, which I don't even know what to say to that, except it's the genius move to gaslight an entire generation of Christians that will probably take hold and be with us for far longer than Trump is on the political landscape.Speaker 2 (31:29):I am not fully convinced it's gaslighting. On one hand it is. They're saying one thing, doing another. It absolutely is by definition. And I think growing up in white evangelicalism, there is, at least for the men, I think an implicit belief, I don't even think it's explicit. It's becoming explicit that they get that past too. It functions on those passes, those senses of we don't have to hold up to accountability. And I think we see that in all the sexual abuse scandals. We see that in the narcissism of so many white evangelical pastors. There is this sense of, as long as we're in this system, there isn't accountability. And so you can say one thing and do another, and it doesn't matter. You have God's authority over you and therefore it's okay. And so I think there's something, I'm right there with you, it doesn't make any sense, but I think it's also quite consistent with the way that authority has been structured within thoseSpeaker 1 (33:14):Spaces that you said that I felt like, I don't know if you ever get your heartbeat right in your neck, but I had it right there. Oh, yeah. I think that feels true. Yeah, it's gaslighting, but also it's meant to be that way.Speaker 3 (33:39):Do you think that that's new math or is that at the inception? What do you attribute the origin of that? And I don't disagree with you, I'm just sitting here like, damn, okay, so where does that come from and how long has it been there?Speaker 2 (34:04):I don't know. I have guesses. I think, how do you enslave an entire people without something like that and then found literal denominations that are structured on these power and authority? It goes back to what you were saying at the beginning, Rebecca, it's about power and accountability supports power.Speaker 3 (34:50):Yeah. Have you read The Color of Compromise?Speaker 2 (34:59):There's a documentary by that same name, right? The filmSpeaker 3 (35:02):There might beSpeaker 2 (35:05):See the film. Yeah.Speaker 3 (35:07):So he makes a comment in the book. He is writing this chapter about sort of the origins of the country and the country is as the colonies are being formed before it is a country, the colonists are in this sort of public debate about slavery and Christianity. And at least in tissie's research, there's sort of this group of colonists who come to the United States or what will become the US for the sake of proselytizing, evangelizing who they term savage, native and then enslaved Africans. And they're having this public conversation about does the conversion of a native or an African to Christianity remove them from slavery, essentially? Can you theologically own someone who's a profess child of God?(36:32):And Tse says that the origin of that debate has to do with an old English law that said that you can't enslave someone who is of the faith. And I remember reading that and thinking to myself, there's something wrong with the logic that you think you have the right to own any human being regardless of their faith belief system or not. There's something wrong with the premise in general that you believe as another human being, you have the right to own or exercise dominion over another human soul. So those are the things that go across my mind as I listen to you talk and propose the notion that this issue has been there, this flaw in the thinking has been there from the beginning.Speaker 1 (37:40):I was just thinking, I am reading this book by Paola Ramos about defectors and how Latinos in the US have moved to the far right, and she makes a case that the faith of the Spaniards told them that in order to achieve superiority, they should basically make babies with the indigenous peoples of the Americas. And they went about and did that. And then I know we always think popular literature, the United States, oh, India has this caste system. That's what people say, but really Latin America has a really complex caste system too. And to which after they brought over, and Rebecca and I know Matthias, you guys know this, but after they brought over stole African human bodies, a majority of them came Latin America, what we know as Latin America, they didn't come here to the United States to the continental us. And so then you have this alliance then between, and I'll bring it back to politics between these mixed Spaniards with indigenous folks also in enslaving Africans.(38:56):So then you get to our political commentary and you're recruiting Latinos then to join the Evangelical white church movement. And they've often been demonized and excluded in spaces because of citizenship, which adds its own complexity where African-Americans, now they have citizenship right now on the current day, but then you have these Latinos that it can be born or they're brought over on daca. So then you have this complexity where not only is there this historical century hating of African-Americans and black folks in Latino culture, but you also have this sense of that to get ahead, you have to align with white folks to come against African-Americans. You have all of that in the mix, and also then you also have to deny yourself and the fact that you have African heritage and indigenous heritage, so it's this huge mind fuck, right? How do you make sense of that colonial jargon in the political landscape? And then how does a Latino think, how do they actually encounter the nuance of their humanity and all of that, but complexly set up by the Spanish who said, we're going to enslave this X people group. In the meantime, we'll just mix our mix with this certain race, but the white people will be more dominant. And so you see that all comes into the United States politic and who gets to be human and who gets not to be human.Speaker 3 (40:44):I mean, in some ways, Daniel, you're pointing out that, and I think this goes back to math's point of several minutes ago, none of this is new under the sun. All of this is just current day manifestations or reenactments of a racialized dynamic that's been in play since forever, since even before maybe even the American colonies, right? Because what happened in terms of the transatlantic slave trade in Latin America predates some of that.Speaker 2 (41:18):Yeah. I mean, I think about England colonizing a huge portion of the world under the name of their faith that requires quite a distancing from accountability in humanity. Then you get an extreme fringe of those folks starting their own colonies.Speaker 3 (41:47):I mean, it does make me think, and my Pentecostalism is about the show, but it does make me think that there's something about this whole dynamic that's starting to feel really ancient and very old patterns that have been in place, and to me suggests from a spiritual standpoint, an enemy that is organized and intentional, and I have begun to wonder less than a week out from the election, what's the game plan if the election doesn't go the way I hope it does? What happens if America decides to give into its lesser urges as it has done in the past, and choose a path that is contrary and antithetical to its ideals what we're going to do? I ask that not even from a practical standpoint as much as spiritually speaking, how am I going to breathe and how am I going to make meaning of what you do with a world where that's the reality? We were talking before we got on air about the rally in Times Square and we can rail against it all we want, but there was hundreds of thousands of people there saying, yeah, let's do that.Speaker 4 (43:40):That scares me. AndSpeaker 2 (43:52):It doesn't go away. Even if Harris wins, I think your question of what do we do if Trump wins? It's a sobering question. It's a terrifying question, but I think it's also a very similar question of even if she wins, what do we do? What do we do? These people don't magically disappear.Speaker 1 (44:30):We're going to have to do no matter what. I just feel like there has to be some sort of, like you said, Mathias, just processing of the grief of our past because it's chasing us. You can hear it in each of our stories. It is just chasing us what we've been a part of, what we've been asked to give up. And I think America, well, the United States, not America, but the United States is terrified of what it would mean if it had to face that kind of grief.Speaker 3 (45:23):I don't know about that, Danielle, because for there to be terror would mean that you have had some conscious admission that something is gravely wrong. And I'm not even sure if we're there yet. I think America as a whole has a whole lot of defense mechanisms and coping mechanisms in place, so they never even have to get that far. And I don't know what you call that, what comes before the terror, right? Because terror would mean some part of you has admitted something, and I just don't know if we're there. And that's just me meandering through a thought process. ButSpeaker 1 (46:19):Oh, that's scary too, right? I think you're probably right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're going to bump up against our time. I know, Mathias, you have something coming up too, but any final thoughts? I don't expect us to solve anything or wrap it up, butSpeaker 2 (46:47):I'm just noting how I'm feeling and there's something both sobering and grounding about this conversation. I don't think we've covered really any kind of necessarily new territory, but to continue to speak these things, it's so brain, but it's also like, okay, we can ground ourselves in these things though. These things are true and it's terrible, but when we ground ourselves, we have ground just, and that feels different from some of the up in the air anxiety I was feeling before coming to this coverage, just the general anxiety of the election that is so pervasive. So that's a shift.Speaker 3 (47:53):I think I found myself looking back a lot in recent days back to the history of the story of African hyphen Americans in the United States, back to some fundamental things that I learned about my faith early on. And I have a sense of needing to return to those things as part of grounding that regardless of what happens in the next week or the next several months or even the next six months, we have been here before as a country, as a people, and we have survived it, and we will do so again. If I think about the black national anthem, God of our weary years, God of our silent tears, and I have found myself needing to return to those traditions and those truths, and I think I'll stay there for as long as my mind and my body and my emotions will allow me to as a way of breathing through the next several days. I mean, talk to me on November 6th. That might be in a very different place, or January 6th or January 20th, but for today, I find myself looking back, I have some curiosity for each of you. What are those traditions for you, in your own spaces, in your family, in your culture, in your people? What are the things that have grounded you in the past, and can they ground you again going forward?Speaker 2 (49:43):I'm sitting here finding myself wanting to come up with some beautiful answer. And the reality is I don't know that I have a beautiful answer. It's a difficult task.Speaker 1 (50:00):Yeah. I mean, no, we're wrapping up. I can't give you anything clever except I think what comes to mind is I often just tell myself just the next hour, the next day, sometimes I don't even think about tomorrow. I tell myself, don't rush too much. You don't know what's in tomorrow. Today's going to be okay. So I kind of coach myself up like stay in the moment.Speaker 3 (50:38):And in all fairness, Danielle, your people, if you will, are facing a very different kind of threat under a Trump presidency than mine are, and that is, I'm firmly of the belief if he's going to come for one of us, eventually he will come for all of us. But I'm also very aware that the most pressing existential threat is coming against people of Latinx descent people who very well may be American citizens, are facing the potential reality that won't matter. And so your sense of blackness gay through the next hour, I'm good. I have a lot of respect for what these days are requiring of you. Thank you.Speaker 1 (51:43):Thanks for hopping on here with me, guys.Speaker 2 (51:47):Thank you.   Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. Danielle  (00:26):Welcome to the Rise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. This is a part two of our season five opener, which was review and recap of the past year, and also engaging some questions around humanity, the election, and how do we see our neighbor? We are going to be hearing from a couple of organizers who have been in my county, Kitsap County for more than a decade. You're going to hear some of their experiences, some of what they've gone through, as well as a few other folks who are giving their response to the questions we posed last week. I've been doing a lot of listening. This isn't an endorsement for any candidate. This isn't a psychological advice, and this isn't a prescription for how you should vote. Voting is a right. It's something we can participate in. It's a way to participate in our system.  A lot of folks are swinging wildly between two pendulums. There's the thought of my vote doesn't matter and I'm not going to vote, or I'm going to vote for X person as a protest vote. These are all of your rights. You have the right to do. So. I've been thinking a lot about change and what does change mean? How do we want to see change come about, and what does long-term change really look like? I can't speak from an electoral politics standpoint because I'm not an elected official and I don't plan to be anytime soon. I can speak as a person, a mother, a wife, a partner, a colleague, a friend, and a community member. And what I can say is people powered movements are what I have seen from the ground up, bring change in communities. This isn't unlike what happens in our bodies from a psychological experience in my own body. Change doesn't come from merely thinking about it. It comes from the ground up in my body. It comes from addressing the feelings, paying attention to my body, and becoming a more integrated person. I would challenge all of us to look around and what are the people powered movements for social change that we desire, and what are the ways our body is talking to us and how if we listen, will it inform us where we stand on many of these different issues?  This brings me to another sensitive topic. The topic of how we are feeling, how we are doing in the sociopolitical climate. We're living in these United States. I can say that for myself in my own experience, my anxiety is heightened overall and feelings that I can keep at bay with regular normal coping mechanisms such as exercise. It takes me a little bit more and I have to offer myself a lot more grace in the process. I encourage you no matter where you are, to engage these topics with grace towards your own self, towards your neighbor, towards your family, and towards whoever's in your proximity. We won't get things done overnight. That's not how change works. Change is a process. It is for us as individuals, and it is for us as a collective society. So hang in there. If you need help, get the help you need.  Maybe it's a mental health counselor, maybe it's a spiritual advisor. Maybe it's your pastor, maybe it's your friend. Maybe it's someone in your community that you look up to, like a mentor, or maybe you just need to sit down with your friends and have a good old fashioned dinner and drinks and put your phones away. Whatever the help you need is, it's important that you seek out that help and that support. The goal isn't to be perfect. It isn't to be fixed. The goal is to be in our process and getting what we need so each day we can show up for ourselves and those in our community. We're going to jump into the conversation and voices from across the country. We are all different and we're not meant to be the same. I hope you find pieces of you in each of their stories.  Speaker 2 (04:37):Hi, this is Raquel Jarek and I'm coming to you from Bloomington, Minnesota, which is a suburb in the Minneapolis area. I teach astronomy for work to college students in downtown Minneapolis and am an aerospace engineer and was raised in a very Christian home. And I'm still a practicing Christian in many ways, and I make space for people with different political views in all kinds of moments in my life. I do it at my work with students because I have a variety of people in my classes. I'm actually challenging them to vote and to even investigate the two major political candidates for president on what they view of science and space and how they would support NASA or space exploration. And I get to know my students pretty well in person, especially not as much with my online students, but I want to make space and have a comfortable room where people can share a little bit of how they feel, but also not be offensive to people with a variety of opinions in the room.  Speaker 2 (05:44):And then there's a variety of opinions in my family on my side of the family and my in-laws and which candidates they support and which parties they affiliate with. I want to be a person who is about supporting different opinions and being able to be loving and welcoming to anyone in any opinion. And sometimes that can be difficult when people have conflicting views in the room. I think you might need to keep the conversation more surface level and fun and in smaller conversations maybe you can dive into what they think more. But that can be really challenging to go deep with people who are very opposite opinions. At the same time, I like to have challenging conversations about politics and religion, and I think being open to those conversations whenever those topics come up is good. And then also just remember to be kind. And I think that's definitely easier to do in person than online or in a social media space, but that face-to-face contact does bring out more humanity and more kindness in people. So I hope that helps and that people can make more time and space to treat others kindly and hear opinions. Thanks.  Danielle (07:04):What were you going to say about the election?  Sarah  (07:08):Oh, I'm just feeling stressed about how close this election is. And it's just sort of extraordinary to me that given the many, many flaws in the Trump offering that people would still vote for him, that he's clearly mentally impaired and authoritarian, happy with dictators, mean-spirited and more of a mafia boss than a presidential candidate. And it's just extraordinary to me that, and I've always known people like that existed. It's just extraordinary to me that so many people would be planning to vote for him. So I am feeling a little stressed this morning,  Speaker 1 (07:55):Pam, I saw you nod your head.  Speaker 4 (07:58):Oh, I agree with everything that Sarah said. I have the same I deep, deep apprehensions and anxiety, and I think we're living in a landscape of anxiety just on the edge of a nation that at least half of it wants to go over that edge and pull the other half down with them. And it's really frightening. It's real. And I think I'm also frightened by people who are putting their heads in the sand. That's their response either out of just inconvenience or their terror response. So we're in a situation,  Speaker 1 (09:04):I agree. I feel that. I feel it come out in so many different ways. So for instance, as a licensed mental health therapist, something gets said like it was this last week where the former president is at a rally comments on anatomy. It gets blasted across the airwaves. And then what I notice that happens across my workspace is that people are triggered in their family relationships. They're triggered in with community. They're on heightened alert with a neighbor. I noticed this is last week we had two different really random requests. One was to adjust our fence because of the view. And if you know my yard, I live way out in the country, no one's looking. The second thing that happened to us was like, your car is parked at an odd angle sort of thing. So can we switch it around? I wasn't home. I got the message. And immediately when the message popped up, I felt so much anxiety and I was trying to talk myself off the ledge. I'm like, you can move this car, Danielle, when you go home, you can move this. This is fixable. You can come back from this. But the way I understand it is there's all my cup of navigating anxiety and uncertainties already up to here. So if my car's crooked somewhere, I'm freaking out.  Speaker 4 (10:44):I think that's happening all over the place. I mean, we saw an example yesterday afternoon with that involved pizza and chicken and people being much deeper issues and wounds being triggered by that, and we just have to take care of each other. I think we really, my priority is number one for the foreseeable future is public safety and how do we take care of each other when a lot of us can't call the people in the system that are supposed to give us support when they're not there, or they are part of what is creating problems and cruelty and insensitivity. So I mean, that's the only thing that's on my mind right now is public safety.  Speaker 1 (12:16):Sarah, thank you, Pam. Sarah, what comes to mind? We're kind of discussing the nature of political dialogue in our current climate. What do you see at stake if we do not vote?  Speaker 3 (12:31):Yeah, so that's what I've been thinking a lot about because I know there's a lot of people feeling that as a principled matter, they don't want to participate in voting, especially when the Biden administration has not been taking the ethical stand. We would like them to take on Gaza, for example. That's kind of a particularly heightened one, and it's really hard to feel like by voting somehow you're participating, you're condoning genocide. So I really get that and struggle with that myself. And here's where I come down is that I don't feel like any presidential candidate since I've started voting, which was a very long time ago, that any presidential candidate, except for when McGovern was voting, was running to get us out of Vietnam War, that there's been a presidential candidate that I was voting for with enthusiasm, we vote strategically. And that's one of the things the working family party is so good at.  Speaker 3 (13:35):They say we're voting strategically. We're voting to build power so that we as a movement can get things done. That doesn't mean the person who's running for president or any other office is our leader. We're not getting behind them as like, okay, all our loyalty is to this individual. We're voting strategically because this person in office is more likely to, number one, give us the space to build a social movement that can actually build power. And number two, to be swayed by the social movement to care when people show up and protest and people gone strike. And when people's movements do what they do so well, they care enough to then be willing to change policies. And so that's the way I feel about it. I don't feel like we have to believe that Kamala Harris and Tim Waltz are the people that we believe are the most, are everything we would hope for.  Speaker 3 (14:33):We just have to say, will this person allow social movements that care about poor people, that care about immigrants, they care about the environment, will they allow those social movements to progress? And we desperately need that progress. And on the other hand, if we end up with somebody like Trump, I mean, I think part of the appeal of Trump in the beginning, I mean when he ran the first time around, I think the appeal for a lot of people was they were just so angry at the system as it is that voting for Trump was throwing a bomb into the middle of government and seeing what landed because they didn't want to continue the status quo. And that felt more satisfying. Well, we kind of know what that looked like. We know who got hurt there. And we know also that this time around he has less to lose.  Speaker 3 (15:25):He doesn't have another term to run for, so he doesn't have to placate anybody. There is no group of people that he has to be concerned about except for the people who give him money and give him power. And so that's what the entire government will be oriented around is giving Donald Trump lots of flattery, lots of power and lots of money. And we know what that looks like in Russia because that's kind of what happened when the Berlin wall fell, is that they kind of sold off the whole government to a bunch of rich people, and it became just thoroughly corrupt. It's not like we don't have corruption now we do, but just wait until the whole government is privatized and Elon Musk owns this chunk and Peter tha owns this chunk, and it's like the rest of you, we don't care because we've got AI to do your job. Anyway,  Speaker 1 (16:24):Pam, thoughts or response?  Speaker 4 (16:28):Yeah, no, I think all of that is right on. We sort of can oscillate between the most local level, the national level, and global politics. So we're part of a very extraordinary zeitgeist of authoritarianism popping up in multiple countries. And I heard a podcast a week or so ago talking about authoritarianism in other countries, and they pointed out, and especially in Europe, that there very, very forceful, very strong, very loud, very visible, but they are not the majority in those countries. And I think because we see and hear more about authoritarianism on a daily basis and the ratcheting up of the horrible violent rhetoric that we can easily feel like we are the minority. And I don't know that we're a big majority. And I think that there's a lot of qualifications to what constitutes authoritarianism because it is not that it's not here already. When we talk about voting for democracy, this is about losing our democracy. Well, that's a very relative term. I mean, the country was not founded democratically, this country was taken. I think that's why we have such a hard time dealing with Palestine. If we have to acknowledge colonization and genocide and all of the injustices there, we might have to then look at our own situation and history. So I mean, again, it just travels back and forth between the different levels. And here in sbo, hobo is proud of its colonization and it's just terrified of losing a grip. So I think we are in an identity crisis. You can't imagine.  Speaker 3 (19:28):Yeah, I think that's right. And I think a lot of that identity, I think a lot of it is where racism really flowers is people are afraid that they lose their privilege and entitlement of being white, and then they're willing to listen to and be convinced by really horrible racist ideas. And I think part of that is also this crisis of a sense of belonging that people have been, the social institutions that used to keep us connected have withered away in so many different ways. And then during Covid, we were so isolated, and then people just got this, it's a psychological trauma of a kind to be that isolated. And so without a sense of belonging, instead of turning to one another and saying, let's figure out how we rebuild our community in ways that are real and authentic and empowering, people are turning against each other because that's sort of the reptilian brain taking over and saying fight or flight, and I'm going to fight these other, and that's going to give me a sense of belonging because then I'll be part of this little group that all is fighting against the other. So I do feel like it's an incredibly dangerous time. And I also feel like at a local level, there are solutions that are about building that sense of belonging that are within our reach.  Speaker 1 (21:12):Yeah, one thing I think from a psychological perspective is often we're like toddlers or babies. We do this process of, we do split a split, what's good, what's bad? And we're dependent on a caregiver to make meaning of the world for us so we can understand those splits and we can become hopefully an integrated adult that's able to manage the good and the bad feelings. And I think an more general term, which it's going to shortcut some understanding here, it's far more nuanced than what I'm saying, but we have a collective split. And in that collective split, for instance, when a toddler can't get their bad feelings out, if you've ever seen a toddler rage, they rage about a candy wrapper, they rage about, I can't get it. X. And what does that toddler need? Yes, they need the physical containment, the love and the care and support. They need boundaries.  Speaker 1 (22:20):Then they need a parent to talk to them, even if they can't understand it either through touch or interaction or play or verbally to make sense of why they had those big feelings to normalize the big feelings. So the toddler can say, oh, I'm not weird because I had these big feelings and here's where I can put them. Here's how I can process them. And in a sense, Trump I think has capitalized on the splitting of our collective conscious. And he said, you have bad feelings and let's put 'em over here. Let's find someone to blame. So this becomes, let's externalize our bad feelings about maybe what we're coming to realize. It gets centered around a critical race theory or it gets centered around Haitian immigrants. Let's put all of our bad feelings, the things we haven't been taught to metabolize as a society and let's throw 'em over here into these people.  Speaker 1 (23:19):And because there's a lot of folks that are listening to this rhetoric, it feels good not to have to deal with our own bad feelings about ourselves. I'm just going to be honest. When I feel shame about myself, I feel horrible. I do not like that. And sometimes I deal with it well, and sometimes I don't. But I depend on other figures in my life to bring that shame to them and say like, oh, what do I do about this? I feel bad. And how do I make amends? Or maybe I can't make amends. And if you can't make amends, you also have to deal with that. So I think these authoritarians capitalize on the psychological collective consciousness of a society that doesn't often know what to do with the bad feelings. Think about Germany, think about Israel, think about, I'm trying to think about what we've done in Mexico and South America with corporations, and now all of a sudden people migrating north.  Speaker 1 (24:24):Now they're bad. So what do we do with that construction of consciousness? And I agree, Sarah, really the only way to take a piece of that elephant is to start with your friend or your neighbor and to vote for people that seem to have more space for us to organize or to continue to make meaning with our neighbor that may be very aggressive and hostile to us. I mean, the mistake is on the other side, if I vote for this radical person, they're going to eliminate that bad neighbor somehow because they're not actually trying to convert the person they think is bad. They're trying to get rid of them, expel them permanently. And what I think I'm looking for is something, what SMA talks about, resum is where do we, and I think what you guys are saying is where's that space where we may know we don't like someone, but where there's actually space to figure it out. And with an authoritarian, there's never going to be that space. They're dependent on the hate.  Speaker 4 (25:32):That's right. Go ahead, Pam. And then people want to think that if Trump just doesn't get elected, we'll be okay. We will have dodged the literal bullet in many cases. But that's not true because like you're saying, Danielle, it's the divestment of our own intolerable parts. For whatever reason, they are intolerable to us onto the others, and our system is constructed such that we have to have others. Capitalism has to have others, we have to have racism. That's what makes it work so well for the people that it works well for. I think we need a national intervention, and I think that's what we're going toward in a dark sense.  Speaker 4 (26:49):But I would hope that we could start to get ourselves moving toward a national intervention and within a more positive framework. And how do we do that? How do we do that? You're talking about the hyper-local level and with neighbors and family. And at this point, I mean, some of our neighbors want to kill us, and that's not being hyperbolic. And we know that those sentiments are out there, but the sort of signs are being flashed everywhere to intimidate others rather than to put down those weapons, whatever form they take and sit down together to find some commonalities to just bring the temperature down. Right now, so many other people have been very alienated from numerous family members over these issues and can't not bring the issue of guns into this conversation because the weaponization of our society is a huge factor. I think it's a huge factor in why many politicians, political leaders don't step up more. I think it's why they don't confront the atrocities that are happening in front of us, whether it's in other countries or it's in our own backyard. I think the arming of America has really deformed our national character, and I think that's a large part of this identity crisis.  Speaker 3 (29:11):So yeah, I think what you said earlier about this being that the authoritarian, the group that really approves of that is a minority. And even when Trump won in 2016, he won by a minority of the popular vote. And we know the electoral college system is to blame there, but we are pretty clear that he doesn't have a majority and he still may win, but he doesn't have a majority. So I think it's really important to remember that there are the violent folks who are really in favor and really relish the idea of violence, but they are a relatively small minority way more than I would've hoped, but still. So then I think a lot of our challenge is how do we work with the people that are still in the middle? And I don't mean that they don't have opinions, it's that they are struggling with the nuances.  Speaker 3 (30:08):And I think there are a lot of those people, even though they're kind of hidden from the media, but they're struggling with the nuances, they're not sure who to vote for or whether to vote. And one of the things I keep seeing is Kamala Harris and other people asking for money, which I don't understand, they raise so much money already. And what I wish Kamala Harris would ask for is, I wish you would ask us for our vote, and I wish you would ask us to talk to somebody in our family or in our friendship circle who is struggling with knowing whether to vote or not or who to vote for and ask them for their vote. And I'm not talking about uncle, so-and-so who's clearly going to vote for Trump? What I'm talking about is the person who says, well, my vote doesn't matter. Or the person who says, I can't bring myself to vote for a candidate who hasn't stood up to what's going on in Gaza. And those are things that I sympathize with. I think there are people who have intelligence and real concern who are expressing those things. One of the things I just heard about is I don't, if you remember a while, a few elections back, there was a swap the vote thing going on where you could talk to somebody in a swing state  Speaker 3 (31:35):And say, Hey, I'll vote for a third party candidate, Jill Stein or Cornell West if you'll vote, given that you're in the swing state and your vote's going to really make a difference if you'll vote for Kamala Harris. So I'm getting ready to do that. I'm going to see if I can find one of my friends at Michigan who is struggling with that question around Gaza because I struggle with it too. And I think that Kamala Harris has shown she actually cares, even though we're not getting the kind of position we would like, I think she actually does care about human beings. I don't see any evidence of that from Trump. So I think we're better off if she wins in Gaza, we're better off with Gaza, and then we can continue our organizing work. So much of our work is really not about the elections.  Speaker 3 (32:27):It's about building the power of ordinary people through social movements. And that's what we need to be about. And that's also, I think the part besides the crisis of the other part of the crisis we're in is this crisis of inequality and hopelessness in a sense that no matter what I do, if I'm a young person, I may never be able to buy a house, or I may never be able to have children because I can't afford daycare. I mean, the death that people and people in the media, often the Democratic party often describe this as inflation and say, well, inflation is so much better, and therefore, why aren't you guys happy? It's like, well, I still can't afford a place to live. Why should I be happy? They're kind of not getting that. So the whole way our economy is functioning to pour huge amounts of money into the military industrial complex and into a whole new generation of nuclear weapons, and to allow the wealth to trickle up, not just trickle, but flow up to the top tiniest percentage and the rest of people to be struggling.  Speaker 3 (33:36):That whole way of organizing the economy I think is really important to remember how popular Bernie Sanders was when he was willing to call that out. And I think the Democratic Party was not having it. They kept him from actually winning the nomination, but he won enormous amounts of support. And some of those people were people that then turned around and voted for Trump. They wanted an outsider who was going to shake things up. I think we have to be ready to shake things up in terms of the economy in a way that's inclusive, that says we can have an economy that includes everyone, where everybody has an opportunity and not, we could have a better economy by deporting massive numbers of people. I think when you can have a political message, that's also an inclusive message and also a message of belonging, I think that's where we have an opportunity to actually combat this authoritarian bent.  Speaker 4 (34:36):I would add that we need more than messaging. We need action because the Democratic Party has been very good at messaging, inclusivity, the big tent, economic equity, healthcare. But then we look at what happens. And Sarah, you and I have been in this for decades, and we make just enough progress to keep the populace from exploding. I mean, one of the best educations, best parts of my political education was taking the training with cell deaf. Do you know them? Community Environmental Defense Fund? Yeah. Oh my God. So every election cycle, we hear the same songs. The Republicans say, well, we need to get the government out of our lives. We need to deregulate. We don't need these people. The government telling us what to do. We need to tell the government what to do. And then we hear the Democrats saying, yes, we need to make things equal and better for everybody, and we will be your guardians.  Speaker 4 (36:23):And over these decades, we have seen some progress, but really not enough. I mean, when you're talking about Bernie Sanders, I'm thinking about when I was a delegate in Philadelphia, a national delegate at the Democratic Convention. And the last night of the convention, which was when Hillary was being, oh, she'd already been nominated but finalized, and I was the whip for the Sanders delegates in the Washington state contingent. And they sent being the Democratic Committee, national Committee, they put a detail of seven plain clothes. I've got pictures and everything of this plain clothes, secret service, FBIA, and then the local law enforcement figures armed to encircle me. We had delegates from other Bernie delegates from other states who were also organized to express our democratic voices. But I think our faith in the system really needs a deep examination, and we need other parties. And the electoral college is its own thing, but this identity crisis has so many dimensions to it that the work that we have in front of us is very broad. And I'm not sure that the public in general understands that. I think they think it's about electing someone, putting them there, and then back to business as usual. And we can't go on like this. So in a way, even though it's so painful, it's so frightening, and it's so awful. I we're at a turning point, and that's a good thing. Unfortunately it doesn't feel very good,  Speaker 4 (39:04):But we have to do it right.  Speaker 3 (39:12):Danielle, I can jump in, but I was, I'm curious about what you think.  Speaker 1 (39:15):Well, I think it brings back to what I was asking you all about how do we see change happening in our society, both long-term and short term? And which leads me back to hearing Resum talk last year and then reading and listening to his books and some of his just Instagram reels and him talking about we got here over 400 years, and it really didn't start then either. It started with disgruntled folks over in Europe thinking the best way to do something about that was to go live in another place and then conquer that place. So it started centuries before this. And wait, how long have we been out of Jim Crow? Can anybody tell me how many years technically zero. I mean, Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1950, what was it,  Speaker 3 (40:23):1967 I think, or 68. Okay.  Speaker 1 (40:28):I mean, just put that in context. You got four centuries and you got whatever drove those people to come here, grew up thinking these guys were the puritan citizens of the world that were looking for a new place. I really wasn't the case. So you got all of that, you honor, you immortalize Christopher Columbus who wrote prolifically and told stories prolifically about murder and rape and state sanctioned violence that set the tone. And this is a man we immortalized. So when I think about long-term, and I think about SMA talking about, he talks about each of us taking, when we begin to make a shift in our family, it being five generations out till that shift is maybe completed. So on some level, that makes me think we're all effed and on the other level, someone has to start it. We have to get going. And that's what I hear you all saying, like, okay, we have this huge dilemma. We are here, and I agree Sarah and Pam voting for the president. Again, you can get caught in that realm. If you vote for Trump, he's your savior. If you vote for Kamala, she's going to save us. Well, she's not going to save us.  Speaker 1 (42:05):Jill Stein can't save us, Cornell West, and I hope one of them are thinking they can, the alternatives to Trump. I fear maybe that narcissism is so deep that maybe there is some thought of that, but our people's movements, the things we do on our block and our street matter the most, and those have the potential to make long-term effects for my kids and short-term interventions, look at what happened in the school district here. I mean, they've gone back to using common threads and other things as a foundation because of what was set decades. Was that like two decades ago? Three decades? Two, yeah, two decades. But there is a sense that when you have someone severely corrupt and empowered and dictating tone, you literally can't get anywhere,  Speaker 3 (43:05):Right? Well, I think the time horizon question is really important. We do have hundreds of years of this history. We should remember that some of the people who came over came over because they were fleeing horrific conditions. I mean, you think about the Irish people who were trying to escape a famine, and you think about Jewish people trying to get away from pilgrims. I mean, it wasn't that everybody who came over to the US came over here because they thought they could kill a bunch of native people and therefore have a good life. I don't think that was the intent. What they did when they came over here varies tremendously. So I just think we want to keep the nuance in the story because part of the reason is because that's part of what we have to build on, is that today's refugees are not that different in many cases from the people who are escaping the Irish potato famine.  Speaker 3 (44:09):They're people who are suffering and looking for a way to survive and raise their families and work hard. And so we have that part of our story to build on too. So that's just one part. A second thing is that I think our social movements in the United States have gotten kind of swallowed up by the nonprofit industrial. We've thought we could get the changes we need and alleviate suffering by service providing within the current system. And part of the reason that that has been dominant within the nonprofit sector is because where the funding comes from, funding comes from very wealthy individuals and companies, not in all cases, but in a lot of cases want to or are willing to alleviate suffering, but they want to make sure the system stays intact, the system that continues to distribute wealth and power to a small sector of the population. Well, a social movement that is hobbled by having to stay within the existing mindset and the existing system can't be, can't take on the fundamental challenge of inequality and of extractive capitalism because it's too tied into it.  Speaker 3 (45:37):So social movements have got to become independent. And there are good examples out there. I've mentioned the working families party before. I'm not a member of it, but I'm a big admirer because they insist on independent power based on their membership. They will help a Democrat, for example, get elected, but then they'll hold that person accountable to their agenda and say, these are the things we will only endorse you if you do these, if you commit to these things, then they'll go out and work for 'em and help 'em get elected, and then they'll come back and say, did you do those things? And they'll check their record. So they're building a form of independent power. They're not the only one, but they're a good example of how, instead of just saying, okay, democratic Party will come out and we'll vote for your candidate. I mean voting, I think we should all vote. I think we should all vote. I think honestly, that we should vote to keep Trump out of power. And that means voting strategically, and that means voting for Harris.  Speaker 3 (46:34):But that doesn't have to be the focus of our work. The focus of our work should be on building independent power that then holds the candidates accountable to us and does a bunch more in terms of building power. But that's just one of the ways that we need to be building power, is by having the wherewithal to be able to hold candidates accountable to our agenda. I mean, one of the things I used to do when I was at Yes magazine is around election season, we would put together a people's agenda. And this was an agenda of what do ordinary people want? And we figured that out, not just by what we wanted, but what the polls were seeing. And we could find things like a majority of large majority of Americans wanted nationalized healthcare. There was a poll that actually asked them that, and it was way over 50%. Neither democratic nor Republican parties were willing to talk about that. And before Obamacare, when they were working under Clinton on healthcare reform, they excluded any of the single payer advocates from the room. They wouldn't even let them be in the conversation. So one thing after another or that people want reasonable gun control laws, they want reproductive freedoms. They want us to convert energy from fossil fuels to renewables. They wanted that for decades. I can tell you, I was doing this work 20 years ago and the polling numbers showed it. So we need to do more to say this is a people's agenda. This is a people's agenda locally who can represent us and carry this forward and statewide and nationally. This is what we, the people want,  Speaker 1 (48:23):Pam.  Speaker 4 (48:26):Yeah, and we need imagination. I think we're so conditioned to accept systems and there's structures that our default is just, oh, whatever that system says, this is how we do things. And Sarah's talking about movements that are outside largely of those systems, at least in terms of analyzing what works for us and what works against us. And of course, we can't be just isolated satellites. We exist within these systems. So it's the nuanced little travels back and forth. I think that will, well, we've seen it. I mean, take the school district. That was an enormous breakthrough. Huge. Huge. It works. Some of the tactics involved a lot of imagination.  Speaker 1 (49:56):Yeah, I was going to say that. I said, I think we have to realize and understand, I think you're naming this, that people are vastly ambivalent. And so both in the way we think, and I think the way our trauma has hit us as a society and personally, and so I think a lot of us want to engage new forms of organizing or being together as a community. And I think a lot of times at the same time, people aren't ready to do so. There's some comfort in doing it the old way. So I just think we're up against, we have to realize that we're in this complex social movement where we're both invited to understand and know where we came from. And like Sarah, you pointed out the nuance of how we got here. It's not just one story or the other story, but we're also comfortable, I think on both sides of the coin, whether you're liberal or conservative, there's a similarity and you're comfortable and holding that type binary.  Speaker 3 (51:06):You're comfortable, but you're also afraid, right? I mean, we get into the reptilian mindset because we feel so under attack, and then we go into our more simple way of thinking. And I think the other side that we need to be doing our best to work on is to soothe our own alarm and fear by supporting one another, but then by opening that up so that more and more people can have that sense of possibility and belonging and joy and celebration and all the things that can happen at a community level that start calming people's anxiety and giving them a sense of hope and giving them the sense that we as a community have possibilities and can exercise our imaginative power and can make things different because we actually can when we're together in a way that we really can't on our own.  Speaker 1 (52:07):Pam, now that we solve that problem,  Speaker 3 (52:17):Yay, let's go and vote.  Speaker 1 (52:24):I didn't. I mean, I think the temptation is to try to wrap it up, but we just can't, to be honest. This is a conversation that hopefully not just for a podcast, but hopefully it's ongoing with people in our actual proximity.  Speaker 4 (52:42):Well, for one thing, the election isn't going to be decided on November the fifth. I mean, this is probably going to be the longest election ever, at least in this country. So I think it's important to have our communities know that we are paying attention and we are present especially, I mean, did you see the day that, I think it was a couple days ago when Trump gave that rally and made all of those disgusting remarks about Arnold Palmer and so forth? The thing that I think really fueled him for that was that just before that rally, 49 of 67 county sheriffs in Pennsylvania met with him to endorse the Trump presidency. And so when we put that together with things like the pre-positioned fake electors and all of the mechanics that go into our electoral process, I think it's going to be a while. Until this is settled, the outcome is settled, and I think it's important for us to have a presence based in peace and non-violence and tolerance. And I think it's really going to test us.  Speaker 3 (54:52):I agree with you. I think it's going to be really tough in the swing states. I mean, luckily for Washington, I think we'll probably be less in the crosshairs, but I do agree it's going to be really tough. And four years ago, I was on the board of Free Speech tv. I'm still on the board, but I was doing a bunch of research for them to find local people in each of the swing states that they could interview to find out what was going on on the ground. Because I just felt like anybody who thinks that Trump is going to give way to peacefully to a victory on the other side is kidding themselves. He's made clear. He made clear then. But he really is made clear now, and I think because of January 6th, there's more awareness now that we really have to have some safeguards in place. I don't know that they're in place, but there's more awareness of that. So yeah, I think it's a really frightening prospect. And I agree with you, Pam, that being ready to hold each other up is going to be really important.  Speaker 5 (56:05):I feel like it's really hard not to villainize the people I come in contact with who vote the other way. The tension is really hard to hold. How do I take a strong stance for what I believe in without hating the people around me who disagree, especially if they hold contempt for me? And what I think a few months ago on a local neighborhood Facebook group, someone posted, she was asking a question of where she could get a yard sign for what's the non-majority party here? The post caught my eye and I debated whether I should check it out to see the 50 plus comments. But ultimately, my curiosity won and I scrolled through them to see insole after insole hurled at this woman, her gender, her intelligence, and even her spirituality all came under attack, all because she asked the question. Others told her she should have known better than to bring it up in the first place.  Speaker 5 (57:00):I have to confess, I thought the same thing. There have been moments I've considered putting a sign up in my own yard again for the party that is not the majority here, but when I consider the community challenges I've faced over the last few years, I shy away from doing it. I don't know if I could handle any more loss of community. I need people in my life. We all do. And there's not only the risk of losing potential neighborhood friends, there's also the risk of losing family. Last week as I pulled around to the back of my parents' home, the home where I grew up, I noticed a yard sign for the candidate I do not support, almost as if it was there just for me to see in a family that loves to talk about politics, as long as you agree, I am no longer invited, or do I desire to be a part of the conversations.  Speaker 5 (57:49):But the sign in the backyard, which couldn't be seen from the road was placed there only for family to see. It's a statement, a line in the sand. I tell my kids as they ask questions about the fact that me and their grandparents disagree that it's one of the greatest, most beautiful things about our country, that we get to have our own opinion on who we want to vote for, and that it's okay to disagree that we can love people who think differently than we do. I should probably also tell them at some point that sometimes that's really hard to do. It's hard for me to breathe and ground when the hair stands up on the back of my neck and I feel my fist clench when men at the kitchen and my office building laugh and told lies about the candidate I support knowing where I stand. It's hard to stay calm when my middle aged client throws out her party's buzzwords to test me, but I try to remember her humanity. I try to remember that her views are built by reporting that is insulated and circular, and that she's being told that she should be really afraid, and she is. And fear can make any of us want to fight. We're all only human.  Danielle (59:05):Thank you for listening to this episode of The Arise Podcast, conversations on Faith, race, justice, gender in the Church. I want to thank all of our contributors. They've done this as volunteers. I'm a volunteer. This has got started off all volunteer work and so appreciative of those who have joined our podcast. Please download, please subscribe, and please remember that we are part of the human race and to treat each other with kindness and respect.   Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

  Contributors are listed here: Danielle S. Castillejo (Rueb), Cyon Edgerton, Rachael Reese, Chasity Malatesta, Debby Haase, Kim Frasier, Briana Cardenas, Holly Christy, Clare Menard, Marjorie Long, Cristi McCorkle, Terri Schumaker, Diana Frazier, Eliza Cortes Bast, Tracy Johnson, Sarah Van Gelder, Marwan, and more Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. You'll notice there's going to be some updated changes and different voices on the podcast this season. It's season five. It's October 1st, 2024. I haven't recorded a podcast since June of 2023, and at that time, if you've been following along in my town in Kitsap County, we were working through what would prove to be an extensive and prove to be an extensive fight for justice in our school district. And at this time, we have made some very significant shifts. I want to get into this episode to kind of catch you up on where I'm at, where the podcast is at, and hopefully as you listen to myself and some different voices on these upcoming podcasts, you understand that we have this fundamental common theme amongst us, which is our humanity. And when we drop down into that humanity, because our work, our lives, our families, there's all these poles and all these different ways for us to separate ourselves from our humanness and be busy or accomplish this or accomplish that.(00:01:52):And I know because I'm in there too, we actually separate ourselves from our neighbor. And so I'm hoping as we engage tough topics of politics and we get into the sticky points of it, that there's a sense that, yeah, I don't agree with that person or I agree with that person, but there is a sense that there is shared humanity. And so as we talk about these different subjects, I wanted to emphasize that first, an article was released in the fall last year saying in September of 2023 saying that there was, the school district's investigation had concluded and they had deemed that there was no racism in the North Kitsap School district. As you can imagine, a report like that on the front page of the paper, after all we'd been through after sitting through numerous hours of meetings listening to families and their experiences was disheartening.(00:02:45):We came to find out that some of the families felt or experienced what they deemed to be threatening tones from the investigators or understood that they could possibly be under penalty of perjury depending on what they answered. And I'm not saying that this was always the case, but the threat was on the table. And when you're dealing with working with majority world peoples who are marginalized in the United States, that threat can be very real. And the impact of it is very great. So I began to understand that this investigation wasn't actually looking for the truth and how to solve the problem. It was actually looking for a way of complete and utter defense against what these families had reported their students had experienced. It's a very different thing. And I think there were rumors like were these families going to sue the district, bring a lawsuit to the district?(00:03:41):And we've seen in neighboring school districts, just in recent times, lawsuits have been filed for much less. I mean, we had 90 original complaints. We have more people that had come forward as time had moved on. And yet there was never a move to actually file a lawsuit. We didn't file a lawsuit. We continued to move forward with our lives and think about our students. I think at some point in last fall of 2023, there was just a sense of deep despair like we put in years of effort. And the result was this report that basically attempted to delegitimize all the stories of all these families. It was horrible and heartbreaking and followed the fall. And in the late winter there was going to be a vote for this school bond. And as the yes for the bond campaign rolled out, led by a committee of yes folks, which included some Paul's Bowl rotary members and then the superintendent, it became clear to different community members that there were a lot of questions still to be asked, a lot of information we wanted to have and a lot of things that just felt like they were missing.(00:04:57):I'm not saying they were all missing, but there were pieces and details that appeared to be missing. And when we asked the questions similar to what happened with the complaints, we didn't get answers. The answers were couched in long paragraphs or explanations, and the architects seemed like they didn't have access to the buildings. Again, we didn't know all the details of what happened. And this is just a general recap. You can look at the ensuing political drama online. If you Google superintendent signs and polls Bowl, Washington, P-O-U-L-S-B-O Washington, you will find articles on NBC to Fox News to video clips, all of the above. There were signs all over our county, as I'm sure in your different counties or if you live in Kitsap, you've seen them political signs, vote yes on the bond, vote no on the bond, et cetera. And it appeared that signs were going missing.(00:06:02):And in one case, the signs were going missing often in one particular location and a pair of folks who are not married who became allied because they were both against the bond and had been putting up no on bond signs, decided to put up a wildlife cam and we're able to capture a person destroying the signs on video. And again, Google sbo, Google signs, Google Superintendent look for February 20, 24 articles and you'll see the ensuing reports of what happened. This became a chance for us actually to revisit our story because there's a theme of dishonesty from the top leadership. There was a theme of hiding. There's a theme of not giving all the information a theme of there's any extent we can go to that bumps up against the law. By the way, I think it's against the law to destroy political signs. So there's just this theme that you could break the law and get away with it.(00:07:08):We've seen in the top politics of our country down to the low level politics of our country. And what was our community going to do with all of this? We rallied together. For the first time in many years, there were literally hundreds of people on a zoom call for a school board meeting. News agencies showed up again, and sadly, our district was in the news for something else negative related to the top leadership. And it was very sad. The process. The superintendent was put on leave and resigned in June, but stopped working essentially closely with the school board. I think it was in March or April of 2024. I just remember that when the harm stops, when someone harmful is told by law enforcement or the law or someone else in a higher power to stop harming it, it's a relief. But also that's the time when all of the residual trauma sets in the trauma that you've been going through to be in proximity to someone in leadership and you're literally powerless to address it.(00:08:19):And I guess I bring this up to say that as we think about politics nationally, locally, whether it's a school board member or a president, I remember feeling challenged When I live in a small town, paulville was a small town. It is not like Seattle size. It's like got rural folks. There's folks that commute into the city of Seattle. We're, we're a mix of all different kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds. Our school district is now 38% Spanish speaking this year. There is a genuine mix. So when you're out and about in this small container, Kitsap's also very small too. It's rural, it's small. We're kind of contained on our own peninsula. When you're in this environment, the chances that you're going to see someone that you're know are really high, it's not like if you hate someone about, you're not going to run into Donald Trump here.(00:09:11):You're not going to run in here, run into Kamala Harris here. It's not like you're running into those folks, but you might run into your representative. You might run into the school board member from this district or another district. And how are you going to see that person that actually you not only disagree with, but you felt has been unjust to you? Costs a lot. I mean, money's one thing, but time, effort, family, reputation, allies, there is so much time involved and the way forward. You think it's clear when you're fighting on behalf of kids, you're advocating on behalf of kids. That feels really good. But the process to work through that advocacy often doesn't feel that great. You have to become allies with people you don't agree with. And so I think that just brings me back to where do we find our common humanity?(00:10:06):Where do we find space to occupy a same piece of land or a same meeting or a similar, we have similar causes, but maybe there's deep hurt between us and maybe that hurt is to the point where we're not going to ever talk to that person again, and how do we still see them as human? How do we still see them as valuable in this world? How do we still gain compassion? Those are things I ask myself and I don't have the answers. So I've included a number of folks asking a similar questions about humanness, about politics, about where they locate themselves in their various positions, their race, ethnicity, et cetera, and how do they come at this? And I hope you enjoy the following conversations because I conversations or talks from these people, commentary from these people as we hear all different perspectives. Now you may hear someone and be like, I can get down with that. I agree with that. And then there's another person you might be like, no way, no effing way. And so I encourage you to listen, stay curious with yourself and have talks with your family about how you're going to engage this political season.Speaker 2 (00:11:26):Danielle asked me how I see being human in the age of politics, and I'm struggling answering this because A, I am not a politician or have really any experience as a politician. I have experience as a community based organizer. So I am speaking on this on the outside of things. And then also I'm a white woman able bo, heterosexual woman. And the politics and the systems of power were built for me as a white person to thrive. And so I just want to locate myself in that because my view is of a privileged view. White folks can step in and out of politics without it really harming us. And that's a problem, obviously, and it distorts our view of politics.(00:12:55):But with this question, I have become more and more angry and upset with politics, policies, systems of power, the more that I unlearn and learn about my internal white supremacy culture and ways of being. And as the genocide in Palestine and other countries continue, I don't think the political structures are here for us. They're not people centered, they're not community centered. I think all politics are really about power. And so as an outsider, as not a politician and as a white woman, so those are flawed views. I'm coming from a flawed view. I see how politics change people or they make bad people even worse. I know local white folks that are in it for power and just continue on searching for more and more power. And I've witnessed community organizers join politics to really try to change the systems. But I don't think politics or the system was made to help humans. I don't think the system is for humans. And it hurts people, it divides people. I don't really know how to answer this question because I don't think politics and humanists can actually go together, not the way that they're set up now.Speaker 3 (00:15:09):These questions are so beautiful and just so right on time for this time, we're in right before an election where there's so much stress. My name is Sara Van Gelder and I am a friend of Danielle's and a resident of Kitsap County for many years have I was one of the founders of YES magazine. I also founded a group called People's Hub, which teaches community folks how to do local organizing, actually peer to peer teaching. I didn't do the teaching, but connected people together to teach each other and been associated as a ally of the Suquamish tribe at various times in my life, but I did not ever speak for them.(00:15:54):So my own humanity in the context of this political moment, I like to stay in a place of fierce love and do when I can. I can't say I'm always there. I'm often triggered. I often go into a place of feeling really fearful and anxious about what's going on in the world and more particularly the polarization and the rise of which what I don't like to call, but I think is actually a form of fascism. And when I talk about fierce, it means being willing to say the truth as I see it, but also love, which is that that is the motivator. I don't like seeing people get hurt and I'm willing to stand up and be one of the people to say what I see, but not in a way that is intended to degrade anybody. I am a mother, I'm a grandmother, I'm a daughter, I'm a sister. And being connected to people through love and that sense of willingness to protect one another, that's at the core. So even if I disagree with you, I'm not going to wish you harm.Speaker 1 (00:17:12):Wow. Wow. Even if I disagree with you, I'm not going to wish you harm. And I think what I've heard just particularly lately around the talk of immigration, let's say for an example, is the talk about immigration in the context of a particular city. For instance, they've used Springfield, Ohio over and over. It's come up many times and the demonization, the dehumanization of those immigrants, the miscategorizing of their status, it seems like some of this can get point hyper-focused on one particular example to make a political point or to drive fear home across different context, different communities. So when you think about that, do you wish those people harm that are making those accusations? How do you engage a tough subject like that?Speaker 3 (00:18:15):Yeah, it's a really hard one, and I could tell you what I aspire to do and what I actually do a lot of times is avoid people who have that level of disagreement with, because I'm not sure I have enough in common to even have a good conversation. So I don't feel like I'm as good at this as I'd like to be. But what I try to do is to first off, to recognize that when we're in the fight or flight sort of reptilian brain, when we're super triggered, we have the least capacity to do good work of any kind. So I try to get out of that mindset, and in part I do that by trying to listen, by trying to be an active listener and try to listen not just for the positions. The positions are ones that will likely trigger me, but to listen for what's beneath the positions, what is somebody yearning for?(00:19:10):What is it that they're really longing for beneath those positions that I find so harmful and so triggering. So in many cases, I think what people are looking for in this immigration debate is a sense of belonging. They want to believe that their community is a place where they belong and somehow believe that having other people who are from different cultures move in reduces the chances that they'll be able to belong. So what would it mean if they could feel like they belonged along with the Haitians in their community that it didn't have to be an either or is there a way to have that kind of conversation that what if we all belong(00:19:54):In that respect? The thing that I am sometimes most tempted to do, which is to cancel someone, if you will, that actually feeds into that dynamic of not belonging because I'm telling that person also, you don't belong in my life. You don't belong in my community. So it's not easy to do, but I do feel like we have a better chance of doing that locally than we have doing it nationally because locally we do have so many things we have in common. We all want to drink clean water, we want clean air. We want places our kids can go to school where they will belong and they will feel good. So if we can switch the conversation over to those deeper questions, and I think one thing I've learned from hanging out with indigenous folks is the way in which they think about the seven generations and how much more expansive of you that can give to you when you think that way.(00:20:54):Because instead of thinking about again, that immediate threat, that immediate personal sense of anxiety, you start thinking, well, what's going to work for my kids and my grandkids? I don't want them to be experiencing this. Well, that means something about having to learn how to get along with other people, and we want our kids to get along with each other. We want them to have friends and family, and when they marry into a different culture, we want to feel good about our in-laws. I mean, we want our neighborhood to be a place where our kids can run around and play outside. I mean, there's so many things that once you start expanding the scope to other generations, it makes it so clear that we don't want that kind of society that's full of hate and anxiety.Speaker 1 (00:21:44):Wow, seven generations. It is true. I do a lot of reading and I think about res, are you familiar with Resa and my grandmother's hands? And he talks about that the shifts we want to make in society, the shifts towards being more in our actual physical bodies and present with one another and the reps that it takes, the way we're disrupting it now to make a dent in the 400 plus year history of slavery and the act of embodying ourselves from the harm that has been done is going to take five to seven generations. It's not that he's not for change now. He absolutely is. And just having that long term, almost like marathon view perspective on what change has either for ourselves that can give ourselves grace and that we can also give others in our proximity grace, while also not engaging in active harm. I think there's an important part there. Does that make sense?Speaker 3 (00:22:51):Oh, it makes so much sense. And it's like that long-term view doesn't suggest we can put off working. It only even happens in the long term if we start today, we take the first steps today. So yes, absolutely makes sense. I'm not sure I'm patient enough to wait for all those generations, but I want to be keeping them in my mind and heart when I act. How is this going to contribute to their possibilities? So part of that is by thinking about these questions of belonging, but it's also questions of exclusion more structurally. I think the fact that our society has such deep exclusion economically of so many people, there's so many people across the board who feel so precarious in their lives. I think that sets us up for that kind of scapegoating because ideally what we'd be saying is, if you can't afford to go to college, if you can't afford a medical bill, if you can't afford a place to rent, there's a problem with our economy.(00:23:56):Let's look at that problem with our economy and do something about it. And I believe people have gotten so disempowered. So feeling that that's beyond them to do that. Then the next thing that the demagogues will do is say, well, let's look for a scapegoat then. Let's look for a scapegoat of somebody who's less powerful than you and let's blame them because that'll give you a temporary sense of having power. And that's how, I mean it's not unique to our situation. It's how fascism so often unfolds and how historically groups have been scapegoated. And I think we need to turn our attention back to what is the real cause of our anxiety. And I think the real cause of our anxiety is economic and political disfranchisement. Once we can actually tackle those topics, we can see how much more we can do when we work together across all isms and make things happen for a world in which everyone has a place.Speaker 1 (00:24:55):So then if you know people in your sphere, let's say, and don't name them here, that border on the narrative that says, if you disenfranchise someone less powerful than you, that will bring you some relief. If you have people like that in your life, Sarah, how do you approach them? How do you engage with them if you're willing to share any personal experience?Speaker 3 (00:25:28):Yeah, so my biggest personal experience with that was working as an activist alongside the Suquamish tribe when a lot of their immediate neighbors were trying to keep them from building housing, keep them from building relationships with other governments and actually took them to court trying to actually end their sovereign right to be a tribe. So that was my most direct involvement and that was 20 years ago. So it seems like ancient history, but I learned a lot from that, including from working with tribal elders who provided a lot of leadership for us and how we should work. And one of the things that I've learned from that and also from being a Quaker, is that the notion of how you talk to people in a nonviolent way, and a lot of that starts with using I statements. So when people in my neighborhood would say really disparaging things about the tribe, I would respond with, I feel this. I believe the tribe has sovereign rights. I believe they have always been here and have the right to govern themselves and build homes for their members. And it's harder, it's not as triggering when somebody says, I instead of starts with a word(00:26:58):When somebody says, you immediately have this responsive defensiveness because it's unclear what's going to come next and whether you're going to have to defend yourself when you say I, you're standing in your own power and your own belief system and you're offering that to someone else with the hope that they might empathize and perhaps even perhaps be convinced by part of what you have to say. But in the meantime, you haven't triggered a worsening of relationships. And one of the things I really didn't want to do was create anything that would further the violence, verbal most cases, violence against the tribe, sort of getting people even further triggered. So it was just really important to always be looking for ways to be very clear and uncompromising on really important values, but be willing to compromise on ones that were not important. So for example, when we were working on getting the land return to the tribe that had been a state park, we asked people what's important to you about how this park functions in the future? Because the tribe can take that into account they, but the idea that it is their land, the home of chief Seattles, that was not something we could compromise on.Speaker 1 (00:28:17):I love that using I statements intentionally checking in with yourself so you're not engaging in behaviors that trigger another person further into more defensive mode. Sarah, what are some resources or recommendations you could leave with me or us? When you think about engaging people and staying very present, it's a very human stance to say, I think I believe this versus an accusatory tone like you are this, you are that.Speaker 3 (00:28:50):I think the nonviolent communication that Marshall Rosenberg developed is very powerful. He has a very specific technique for having those kinds of conversations that are very focused on that notion about the I statement and also reflecting back what you hear from other people, but then being willing to use statements about what I need because saying that puts me in a position of being vulnerable, right? Saying I actually need something from you. You obviously have the choice of whether you're going to give it to me or not, but I need to be in a place where I can feel safe when we have these conversations. I need to feel like I live in a community where people are so then the other person has that choice, but you're letting them know and you're again standing in your own power as somebody who's self-aware enough, it also invites them to be self-aware of what they need.Speaker 1 (00:29:46):I love that. Yeah, keep going.Speaker 3 (00:29:50):I think there are other resources out there. I'm just not calling 'em to mind right now, but I think nonviolent communications is a really good one.Speaker 1 (00:29:58):And locally, since you talked locally, what are maybe one or two things locally that you regularly engage in to kind of keep up your awareness to keep yourself in a compassionate mode? How do you do that for youSpeaker 3 (00:30:16):Being out in nature? Okay,Speaker 1 (00:30:19):Tell me about that.Speaker 3 (00:30:22):Oh, in Japan, they call it forest bathing, but it's just a fancy term for being in some places it's really natural. There's beautiful walks. We're very fortunate here in the northwest that there are so many beautiful places we can walk. And when you're surrounded by preferably really intact ecosystems where you can feel the interactions going on among the critters and the plants and just let that wash over you because part of that as well, it kind of helps take some of the pressure off. It sort of releases some of us being kind of entangled in our own ego and lets us just have greater awareness that we're actually entangled in this much larger universe. It's much, much older and we'll go on way after we're gone and extends to so many different ways of being from a bird to a tree, to a plate of grass, and we're all related.Speaker 4 (00:31:33):Hey, this is Kim. So just a brief background. I am a 41-year-old biracial woman. I am a mom, a nurse, a child of an immigrant, and I identify as a Christian American. Thanks Danielle for asking me to chime in. I just wanted to touch base on this current political climate. I would say as a liberal woman, I really enjoy diversity and hearing and seeing different perspectives and engaging in meaningful conversation. Unfortunately, I feel like right now we are so polarized as a country and it's not like the air quote, good old days where you could vote for a politician that you felt like really represented your ideals and kind of financially what you value, policies, et cetera. Now I feel like it has become really a competition and an election of human rights, and I think for me, that's kind of where I draw my own personal boundary.(00:32:40):I think it's important to share different perspectives, and I think I do have a unique perspective and I enjoy hearing others' perspectives as well, but for me, I do draw the line at human rights. So I have learned over the years to just not engage when it comes to issues of individuals being able to choose what to do with their body, women in particular, it's terrifying to me as a nurse and a woman and a mother of a daughter who could potentially be in a situation at some point and not be allowed to make choices about her own body with a doctor. Also as the child of an immigrant, I was raised by a white mother, Irish German Catholic, and my father is an immigrant that has been here since 19 76, 77. He is from Trinidad and Tobago. He's actually served in the military and I have a hard time with vilifying people of color trying to come to this country and make a better life for themselves and for their future and their future generations, which is exactly what my dad was doing. So to me, it's a no-brainer, right? Not to tell anybody what to do or how to vote, but I think that it's really hard right now to hold space for individuals who may be attacking my rights as a woman, my ability as a nurse to be able to care for patients and really what this country was supposedly built on, which is being a melting pot and allowing any and everyone here to be able to pursue the American dream and make a life for themselves and their loved ones.Speaker 5 (00:34:34):As soon as the topic turns to politics, I feel myself cringe, and then I want to internally retreat a bit. Looking back over the past eight plus years, I realize I have been feeling like this for a long time. My body holds memories of heated, uncomfortable confrontive distancing and sometimes horrifying conversations with friends and at times, even with family, I'm tired as most people tired from the collective traumas. We have all lived through political, racial, and pandemic related. Eight years ago, I think I worked to try and remain objective. I told myself that my job was just to hear the other person with curiosity, but doing that was not enough to help me stay well in the midst of what I truly could not then and cannot still control. I've come to realize that I have to stay connected to my own feelings, to my own limitations.(00:35:37):I have to make space to feel my disappointment, my disgust, my fear, my sadness, my powerlessness, my ache, even my longing still when it comes to the realm of politics, I have to make room for my own humanity and then I have to be willing to share that, not simply be a listening ear for others. What's been most difficult for me as politics has driven division and disconnection is the loss of healthy dialogue and conversation. It feels to me like relational loss is there where it doesn't seem like it always has to be. I am passionate about the table, about creating and cultivating space at a table for all the voices and for all of the stories to belong. I still believe in this, and when I'm connected to my own humanity, it makes me far more open to the humanity of another, knowing my own stories that are being stirred up and activated by injustice, by what I perceive to be irresponsible politicians and policies that don't make sense to me and at times scare me when I'm in the presence of those who hold very different political views from me.(00:37:02):I have to actively choose to not just tolerate listening to them, but instead to try and listen for something more. I try to listen for the fear that often fuels their positions. The fear is always storied and the stories offer taste of their humanity and oftentimes their experience of suffering, which always offers the opportunity for empathy. I can't do it all the time. Some situations don't afford the time for curiosity and sharing. When that happens, I need space afterwards, space to release what I don't need or want to hold that I heard space to feel my own humanity again, and then space to choose to remember the humanity of the other person, and that is all an active practice. I think that othering people into political camps and categories is easily available and every time it happens, we lose more and more of our collective humanity and we feed the machine of hate that profits from our conversational and emotional laziness.Speaker 6 (00:38:11):I can't say it's always easy, that's for sure. What I try to do is see another person, whether it's around the political views or other things that I may not agree with somebody about or I might even actually see them as a quote enemy, is for one thing, I drop into my heart and get out of my head about ideas, views, and just try to be present in my heart as much as possible with as little judgment as possible and recognize the essence of the other person, the essence that's inside all the beliefs and the views, and recognizing also that we all have some sort of wounding from our lives, maybe our lineages, our generations, maybe even past lives and or trauma, and that that can obscure the essence of who we are, and I try to really remember that essence in another person.(00:39:34):And in relation, how do you see your own humanity? The other question you ask, how do you see your own humanity in the context of political dialogue? I have to say that's not really a question I thought about. I thought about how to see the humanity in others, so I really appreciate this question. I think if I start othering the other, if I get into too much judgment, I feel like I lose my own sense of humanity or at least the type of human I hope and wish to be. What helps me to I guess, discern when I'm in my own humanity, when I'm in the best of places, I guess I don't know how else to word that is I tune into my values. What do I value most and am I living by those values in the way that I want to be human In this world, for example, for me, integrity is super important as well as respect and compassion.(00:40:44):I'm not saying I'm always in this place, but these values that I aspire to live by help bring me into my own humanity and almost like check, checking in, tuning in checkpoints in a way, when I speak about compassion, sometimes people, all of what I'm saying, I want to, even though I'm maybe trying to see the essence of someone, I do try to discern that if there's being harm done, I'm not okaying any harm at all. And when I try to live by compassion, I feel like that's when I can really see the humanity in others and compassion for myself. I view compassion as a very active verb, a little bit different than empathy. Just that compassion is seeing the suffering, but wanting to do something about it and doing something for me. Compassion includes action, and sometimes that action is helping to disrupt or interrupt harm that's happening, and that's how I can show up in my humanity for others is the best I can do is acting as well as being that balance both, andSpeaker 7 (00:42:23):I'm Diana, she her and I didn't use to see myself in politics the way that I do now. It took decades for me to really start to get a grasp about who I actually am and how the ways I view politics, the ways I vote, who I support, how it actually affects me, and I spent a lot of years voting for things that hurt me without even realizing I was doing that because I was following the messaging and believing it. Ultimately that being a good fill in the blanks meant voting for fill in the blanks or being a good fill in the blanks meant donating to or supporting or whatever, fill in the blanks. And I hurt myself by doing that because I wasn't listening to my own knowing or my own intuition or looking in the mirror at who am I? What kind of world do I want to live in? I didn't ask myself those questions. I did what I thought I was supposed to do to fall in line, and there were people in my life during that who spoke truth, and it was true because it was individual to them. It was, here's what I know about me and here's what this policy means for me. And I didn't get it. I certainly didn't get it.(00:44:09):I judged it inside my own head, and yet those people who spoke their own individual truth are the people who were able to shed light through the cracks in my facade. And years later, I remember some of the things that people said or that they posted or whatever because those were the light that I saw through the cracks and it was so memorable, even though at the time I might have been irritated by it, it was memorable because I loved and respected these people and so their words didn't matter to me, even though at the time I very much disagreed and I hope that I will be allowed to be the light in some people's cracks because I know for a fact there's so many people like me who haven't actually looked at who they are, what they want, what kind of world do they want to live in if they separate themselves from the ideology of where they work or where they go to church or their family of origin or what their spouse is telling them, no honey, who are you? What do you want? And when people can be brave enough to do that, its everything up.Speaker 8 (00:45:46):My name is Marwan Cameron, and I was asked to answer a couple questions here, and the first question was, how do you see your own humanity in the context of political dialogue? And I had to think about this question. Our humanity is front and center when we talk about politics primarily because the issues that affect us, meaning the black community are often sidelined or ignored. I'll share some examples of that. Democrats and Republicans both speak about healthcare, the economy crime, but when they have centered those conversations around the realities they face, when do you actually see that take reparations. For example, we hear a lot about tax cuts or healthcare reform, but nothing about reparations for chattel slavery, for foundational black Americans which are owed to black people for centuries of exploitation. You can even look at our prison system where men are going to prison without HIV and very low percentages and then coming out several times higher when they are released from jail and prison, and I'll get into some of those stats. Also.(00:47:15):When we look at black men that are falsely accused of sexual assault, unfortunately we go back to Emmett Till and we never really talk about the contemporary men. I have a list of a hundred black men that have been falsely accused in the last five years alone. Albert Owens 2023, Christian Cooper, 2020, Joshua Wood, Maurice Hastings, Jonathan Irons, 2000, Anthony Broadwater, 2021, Mark Allen, 2022, Franklin, west 2020, Michael Robertson, Shaw, Taylor, Dion, Pearson 2021, Stanley Race 2019 Rashan Weaver 2020. Henry Lee McCollum, 2020. David Johnson, Jamel Jackson, Charles Franklin, Kevin Richardson, Raymond Santana, Corey Wise, you, Celine, Aron McCray, Brian Banks, which is a pretty famous name, Wilbert Jones. That's just 20 names in the last five years of a list of a hundred that I have that have been falsely accused of sexual assault, these aren't things that we talk about. Question two, how do you make space for folks in your proximity who did not share your political views as a heterosexual black male in this country, you really have no choice but to make space for others' Political views as in question number one, we are really only allowed to speak about injustices or political needs in the framework of the black community as a whole.(00:49:25):Matter what side you find yourself on, whether you're a Republican, we're oftentimes they straight up say, we're not acknowledging what your needs are. We're not going to do anything about your needs. You can come over here and vote with us if you want. As Trump said, what have you got to lose? What have Democrats done for you? Or you can look at the democratic side where in the last three elections, it's been existential against Donald Trump. And when Donald Trump won and then lost and is running again, we still haven't seen things like the repeal of qualified immunity, things like atoning for the most heinous crimes that the United States has committed in chattel slavery against black men. I've made space. We have made space as black men in regards to those who do not share our political views. Black men have fought in every war for the United States of America. We have stood up, stood behind, been sacrificed for the good of almost every cause, and we're told not yet. It's not the right time. We too need, have needs, and it becomes a zero sum game.Speaker 9 (00:51:19):Growing up, we had Sunday dinners at my grandparents. Conversation was always lively with my family, talking loudly, fast, and often right over each other. We talked about everything, what was happening around us, our community, what was in the paper and on the news that evening. We didn't always agree. In fact, I think my grandparents debated opposite sides. Just for fun, I fondly remember my grandmother saying, your grandpa and I are canceling each other's votes at the polls. They would both smile and sometimes laugh. Considering my upbringing, I was surprised to hear my instructor at cosmetology school lay down the law. Politics and religion were never to be discussed, not in school, and certainly not if we wanted to be successful professionally. I learned to smile and nod. I strive to find common ground with the opinion of guests. I was raised not to look for any offense with ideas that contrasted my own.(00:52:16):It takes both a left and a right wing to make the eagle fly and what a boring world this would be in if we all agreed. But then Trump happened up until he achieved power. Generally speaking, whether the law or policy was written by conservatives, liberals, moderates, there was a basis of bettering the American way of life. To be clear, this wasn't always the advancement of protection we agreed with, but we could see the logic of it. For the most part, Trump's leadership consists of a hatred for people who are not like him. Early on in his campaign, he told Americans to police their neighbors if they were of a specific religion he has built upon dehumanization and vilification every day sense. My mother lived in Germany for a few years and a town not far from Dau. It was the early 1960s and not yet recovered from World War ii.(00:53:21):This quaint little town overlooks the Bavarian Alps with architects right out of a storybook and a stunning view of Munich. It was evidence that the residents of this charming quiet village were aware that 800,000 people came in and no one left. History books paint the picture that everyone was scared of speaking up for fear they would be next. But with critical thinking, we know many of those approved. They've been listening to the nonsense of their leaders, their beliefs that Jews, the disabled homosexuals, immigrants were a burden on the healthcare system, education system, taking their German jobs, businesses, and homes. They were demonized so strongly, so powerfully. They were no longer human, no longer their neighbors, doctors, teachers, bakers seamstresses their talents, their skills and their very humanity no longer existed. We know this to be true, but what we don't talk about is the slope that good people slid down that enabled this to take place in the coffee shops, birthday parties, sitting with friends, playing cards, Sunday family dinners, these words came up.(00:54:43):Hitler's rhetoric spread and thoughtful kind people did not correct their friends, family, guests and clients. There were Nazis and sympathizers, but there were good people that saw through Hitler's dumpster fire of lies. These are the people I wonder if they ever slept well again. Could they ever look at themselves with honor and integrity? Trump proudly uses this method. He has people willing to do his bidding. He has sympathizers, but what he doesn't have is my silence, my obedience. My voice is the born power. I have to stand strong and correct the lies he tells and the people in my circle repeat. I will lose clients and friends taking this action, and that's a price I'm willing to pay, but I'm not willing to live out the rest of my days knowing that I didn't do everything in my power to stop in.Speaker 10 (00:55:49):How do you make space for folks in your proximity who don't share your political views? I am lucky that I live next to my parents and that my mother-in-law lives in a small home on our property. For years, there was a constant strife between my parents, myself, husband, and my mother-in-law due to political and religious beliefs, uncomfortable dinners, having to watch what you say, an aura of judgment that would seem to permeate family gatherings. They were quite the norm. And each time that they would leave, I would feel a sense of relief. Sometimes someone would decide not to come or just tell us that they needed a break. This would create less tension, but I worry that someone would feel left out or that they would feel judged if they weren't present. And actually that would happen more often or not, especially in my time of anger before and during Covid.(00:56:40):As mentioned before, when I decided that I needed to focus on my own sense of happiness and live up to my values and beliefs, I decided that my home would become a politics, religion free zone. I wanted my home to be a safe for everyone. And this was a tough transition. And what was most difficult was creating boundaries for our parents, having the hard conversations about why we're asking people to withhold their opinions on politics and religion and to focus on grandkids sports and family celebrations, et cetera. For the first few months, I was constantly reminding everyone of the rule, but eventually we all seemed to settle in and even catch ourselves when we deviated from how sex expectations, dinners and events became more pleasant. And when our guests would leave, I didn't have to decompress or worry about how to fix an issue or soothe someone's feelings.(00:57:27):This one simple step has been a game changer, and it's not always perfect, and sometimes people will slip up, but instead of taking on the issue, we will move the conversation to another topic. Some would say that we need to talk about the issues and debate their merits so that we can grow and come together. But no, after finding my purpose, I don't believe that being right is more important than someone else's feelings. I want everyone who sits at my table and breaks spread with me to feel loved and valued. It's not perfect because we're human, but we're trying one dinner at a timeSpeaker 11 (00:58:03):To how do I hold my own humanity? In the context of political dialogue, one of the first things that comes to mind for me is, at least in political conversations, what defines my humanity? When I think about politics, much of our politics is really about power and privilege, of which I happen to have both. And so when I'm thinking about politics, I'm thinking about my social location as a able-bodied, middle class, heterosexual Christian White woman, I carry privilege in almost every aspect of that identity, at least here in the United States. And so when I'm thinking about humanity and political dialogue, our political system has historically always been and continues to be set up to serve people with my type of humanity very well. The thing that I'm constantly trying to keep in my mind is what about the humanity of my brothers and sisters experiencing oppression, marginalization when it comes to my voice and my vote in political situations, I have over the years had to learn to think less about how can I use my vote and my voice to engage in politics in a way that benefits me because I'm already benefiting from our system.(00:59:42):Our system is set up to benefit people like me who carry great levels of social privilege. What I really want to know as I'm trying to use my voice and my vote wisely now, is how do I leverage both of those things, my voice, my vote, as well as my power and privilege to engage in political dialogue in ways that fix broken systems. So I am oftentimes not actually voting or advocating for the things that would benefit me the most or necessarily align perfectly with my theological or political ideals. I'm looking at where are the most broken places in our system? Where is our government currently oppressing individuals the most? And how can my vote and my voice be used to leverage our politics in such a way that those broken systems begin to get fixed and healed over time so that those whose humanity looks different than mine are receiving the same amount of privilege of assistance of power that they should be.(01:00:57):And when it comes to dealing with those that I'm in proximity with who have very different political ideologies than myself, of which I will say in my current context, there are quite a few. I am constantly having to remind myself to focus on core values, values over stances that our conversations and our engagement with one another centers not so much around opinions about specific political stances or issues as much as the core values that we share. If my core value is for equality and equity, if my core value is that we're caring for the poor and the marginalized, then regardless of what stances I might have on certain issues, my voice and my vote represents those core values. And I've found that even when certain stances might be different, when we dig into the core values that are at the root of our decision-making, there's oftentimes a lot more common ground than I ever expect there to be.Speaker 12 (01:02:06):This recording is for the fabulous Danielle Castillo. I think what I am seeing right now as I think about how to welcome people's humanity and politics are a few key things that are both shocking and I would say disappointing in a day and age where we seem to want to tolerate people not being locked into binary spaces, we have relegated differences and opinion and viewpoints into a bipartisan politic. And what that does is that means that there are people who are in and who are out. And we've had to embrace things that we both love and hate if we ascribe to any one of those bipartisan objectives. And so we've had to in some ways, in our own humanity, violate pieces of ourselves to say, well, I align this part one way, but even though I categorically reject their views on this another way. And then regardless of whatever spectrum you're on inside of that political continuum, and it's hard because at that point, if we say in a lot of other spaces that there's space for nuance and there's space for gray, then why here do we land in those spaces?(01:03:16):And so that would be the first that it is an either or, and we seem to be comfortable, most comfortable that way. And then to demonize and villainize somebody who's in the either or space, instead of allowing for the gray, you're either all for me or all against me, and you can't live somewhere in the middle. The second thing that would be shocking and disappointing for me is the way that we've been able to start arranging the things that we can tolerate. And so I can say, well, I love this candidate because I love these three things and I agree with them and I hate these four things, but they're not that bad. And you love this candidate, you love the other candidate for these three things, but you hate them for those four things. And the fact that you don't hate 'em enough over those four things means that you're a terrible person.(01:04:02):And I find that just so interesting and so sad that we've been able to say, well, the four things I can stomach that I don't like are somehow more or less worse than the four things you feel like you could tolerate or not tolerate. And so my list of sins or offenses that are easily navigable, somehow I get to become the moral compass over what should be enough or not enough to disqualify somebody for public service. I think at the end of the day, what makes us hard is that we see people in the middle as somehow exhibiting some sort of cowardice. And I think we're pushing people to violate their own humanity and say, as my experience changes and as the neighborhood changes and the people around me change, and my own philosophy changes that I can't stand in a faithful middle and say, well, I agree with some of this, but I don't agree with some of that.(01:04:54):And we've called those people cowards instead of principled moderates, and we've shamed them into saying, well, you have to choose something. And I think that is so unkind. And I think really at the end of the day, we are asking people to violate their own humanity and their own understanding of who they are and their own sense of who they are as a person by saying that they have to agree one way if they want to be a human or be a woman or be a person of color or be a person of faith. And I think it's both sides. I think every side is complicit. At the end of the day, what is really hard is that I think most people want to vote for the person that is going to lead well, and they want that person to be a good person. They want them to be an upright person.(01:05:37):They want them to be an authentic person, the same person behind closed doors as they are in the public face. And I would say, I don't think that's most people who choose politicking as a vocation, I believe that so much of their job is diplomacy and having to be a lot of faces in a lot of places. And so asking for that kind of authenticity and consistency in a social media world is almost asking the impossible. I don't think it totally is impossible, but I think it's exceptionally hard. Many of the things that we want to ascribe to one individual and how they uphold or represent their own party are carefully crafted narratives by a team of people who are professional politicians and marketers, and to ask them to give you an authentic person, their job is to not give you an authentic person. Their job is to give you an avatar that you feel you can most connect with so you can make the decision they want you to make.(01:06:33):And that is really for me, the reality of what we're up against right now is that we want to say we're voting for ideologies, and in reality we're voting for a carefully crafted narrative that is crafted by people who want you to believe a particular way. And I know that feels kind of negative, and that makes me so sad to even voice that out loud and to vocalize that out loud. But I would say that I hope in some way that we experience real freedom and real understanding of what it means to be a global citizen and to be a citizen of this country, is that we understand that. And the complexity of who I am as a person and how I interact with other people and how they understand their own complexity and their own humanity means that I can believe a lot of things that belong in a lot of different camps.(01:07:19):And that's okay. That's what honestly, being intrinsically American means, but also just to understand our own humanity in the global context is there are things that I will feel one way about and they squarely belong in one camp, but there are other things I believe that belong in another camp. And both of those things can be true for me without somebody demanding that I carry some sort of alliance or allegiance to one person. I think that's so gross and so foul at the end of the day. I think what makes America so interesting and so fascinating, but I also think so beautiful and so compelling and so desiring for people who are coming into our borders, is that there is this understanding that I can stand squarely as an individual person and be able to express myself as who I am as an individual and also belong to a collective that makes space for that.(01:08:14):And that is intrinsically what it means to be America. I'm free to be us, but I'm also free to be me. And so I think politics pushes us into a narrative that is against intrinsically who we say we are, and that really is the basis of freedom. And so that's what I would feel about that. Now, this is an added bonus, and I know you didn't ask for this, Danielle, but I'm going to give it to you anyways because I firmly believe this. I think it is more dehumanizing, and I think it is so incredibly sad that we don't allow for people to be principled moderates. That we are sanctifying the ability to castrate people's ability to be able to stand in the middle. And we vilify them as being weak or vilify them as being cowards because their understanding of what is actually evil is.(01:09:09):It's a broad spectrum. And to say that there is good everywhere, it is true to say there is evil everywhere is true. And how people interface with both of those things is true. And so I hate that we have become okay at using our theology and using our social media platforms and using our politicking as throwing stones for people who say, I want to hold a faithful middle. And that faithful middle means that I can believe a multitude of things and that I stand in the own gray and the nuance of who I am and how I understand my neighbors and what that looks like. And we know that some of those people are standing with compassion and with courage. And to call those people cowards, I think is the most ignorant, I'm trying to find the kindest way to say this, right? So I think it is just absolutely ignorant.(01:10:00):And then we've used quotes out of context and scriptures out of context to tell those people that somehow they're bad and evil people. And it's just not true that they're honestly sometimes the bridge builders and the unifier in places where they are trying to be peacemakers and they're trying to be people of peace. They're trying to be people of belonging and welcome. And so they're holding a faithful middle to say, my heart is going to take enough of a beating where people may misunderstand me, but I'm going to make it big enough and available enough where everybody can come sit under my tent. And I think that's brave work. I think that is courageous work, and I think that is humbling work that we could learn more from instead of castigating really more than anything else. So those are my 2 cents, honestly, more than anything else.(01:10:51):The last 2 cents I could probably give you that I think is so shameful is I am tired of any political party that tells me that they are doing more for working class Americans or doing more for poor people, and yet they're spending 2 billion to fly somebody around and send me junk mail to my home. I would much rather you stop buying ad space and then you actually go and serve the poor and somebody takes a picture of you doing that on accident. And I actually get to see that and go, oh my gosh, they're actually serving the poor. Do not tell me you're serving the poor or serving working class Americans and you haven't talked to one or seen one in a very long time. And my God, you have not lived in our shoes. You have not lived on our pay scales. You have not come in and volunteered regularly, and you only show up when there's a camera crew doing that.(01:11:34):That is so gross to me, and I hate that you send me mail about it and spend 2 billion fundraising for things like that. And yet that money could go to the poor and that money could go to programs. If there's one thing that makes me want to soapbox so bad, it is that more than anything else, I don't want to hear what your fundraising dollars have done to actually help your campaign. And that thing becomes a total waste when you lose. And that money doesn't go into the pockets of people. That money goes into the pockets of advertisers and radio stations and TV stations and social media influencers and all sorts of nonsense and actually doesn't go into the pockets and the hands of people who are feeding the poor that is garbage. So I feel very strongly about that, but I dunno if this is what you need, but that's how I make space. I make space for people who live at Principled Middle because I think blessed are the peacemakers and I want them to feel safe with me.Speaker 13 (01:12:26):Good morning. My name is Luis Cast. How do I see my own humanity in this political context? Well, it's simple as that. I'm a human being. I'm not a pawn or a little peace on a game. I'm a human being born and raised in Mexico, but I live here in the United States over half of my life now, and I'm a human being. And no matter what the promises they give me or what they're going to do in government, I'm still just a human being that wants the best for me and my family. And that's what they need to address the human being in us regarding not regarding color or race or where they come from. Treat us a as human beings. And the other question, how do I make space for folks who do not share my political view?(01:13:46):Well, again, it's just simple. I was taught that love whoever disagree with you or even your enemy. But to be honest, that's the hardest thing to do. People that don't agree with you or you don't agree with them, and sometimes they even hurt you. But I try to do my best, honestly, just to listen and sometimes put myself in their shoes because everybody has been brought up differently in families, cultures, regions of the country from the south, from New England, they call in the west in California. So we all have different views. So I just don't have an ear and sometimes an opinion, but mostly an ear so they can really listen to what they, I believe, where they come from, where they come from. So that is what I try to do. No, perfect, but that's what I try to do.Speaker 14 (01:14:59):Hi, my name is Claire. I am a white, cisgender, heterosexual woman. I live in Paulsboro, Washington. So the first question is how do I see my humanity in the context of this current political moment? And I'd start off by saying I come from a pretty privileged place, like my own personal humanity isn't very threatened just because I'm white, I'm straight, and yeah, my own family background. I have a lot of support and I'm not ever threatened with becoming homeless or something if I can't pay my bills. But still things are really scary for so many people right now. So I definitely feel that all the time. And I would say that it's just a really disheartening time. A lot of the, I mean, pretty much all politicians, I'd say are very untrustworthy at a local and national level. And I think we're all seeing that, especially in the context of what's happening in Gaza.(01:16:26):For the last over a year now, all these politicians that felt like they were progressive and would speak out when heinous things happened, most of them have gone silent or completely denied what's happening in Gaza, or just said really brief empty words, always proceeded by talking about Israeli hostages. So yeah, it's been terrifying because we realize the extent of politicians care for the general public and for the global wellbeing of humanity. And it only stretches so far because first and foremost, they're concerned about their own and standing in the political world because we've seen a lot of people lose their reelections for standing up for Palestinians.(01:17:38):And I think what's really disheartening is seeing it at a local level. In some ways, we expect national politicians to be pretty sleazy and skirt around really big, terrible, important issues. But seeing it at a local level has been really terrifying because I mean, they said it was then a couple decades ago, like 30, 40 years ago, there's more crises going on. And that really, for me, I've always thought, well, this is how it's always been. There's just the media reports on more stuff. We have social media, we can't hide a lot of things. So I don't know if that's true or not, but I mean, it probably is. We're in a time of climate crisis too, so it makes sense that things are just, they're not slowing down.(01:18:49):I don't know where I was going with that, but yeah, I guess I would just say humanity. It feels threatened on so many levels for my queer friends, for my friends of color, for any women or female identifying people just on so many levels, it just feels like our rights are being threatened and everything feels tenuous. If Trump wins, what the hell is going to happen to this country? And if Kamala wins, what the hell is going to change? I don't believe in politicians. They're not going to save us. That's how it feels. We have to save each other that are diehard Trumpers or something. I'd say all those people are my relatives that live in Wisconsin or a couple of coworkers, and we don't talk about politics, but on a deeper level, I try to remember that it's hard, right? Because hard, it's hard not to hate people for what they believe. I guess that's a horrible thing to say, isn't it? But I see the consequences of people who vote for Trump and put him in office the first time, their direct consequences because they voted for Trump and because of their beliefs and because of what they repost online. That just has bred so much hatred, and it's led to people being terrified for their lives and people losing their lives. There's so much propaganda being shoved down people's throats, the people that have Fox News plane 24 7.(01:21:06):I don't know the last time I watched Fox News, but I've overheard it. That stuff is crazy. They're being fed lie after lie after lie. So yeah, it's like people are also a product of their culture and it's hard to fight against your culture. So I try to give people some grace with that, but I also don't know how they can't see their own beliefs as harmful and full of hatred. I really don't understand. So yeah, it's hard. It's hard to remember people's humanity, but I have obviously my own blind spots and my own ways that I'm super ignorant and willfully ignorant in the things I look away from and the things like I'm resistant to learning because it's inconvenient or uncomfortable for me. So I try to hold that space for people too, because we're all learning. Yeah, it's a process of trying to remember people's humanity. And I think, yeah, but it just feels like when people support someone that spews so much hatred, it's really hard not to pin that blame on them as well, because they're also at fault for putting people like that in power. So I don't know. Yeah, it's a tough one.Speaker 15 (01:22:55):I feel like as somebody with various subordinated identities, whether that's being queer, being Latina, having a disability, being a woman, all of those things are increasingly politicized. And so for me, I find that political discourse specifically is often really dehumanizing and even performative on the other end of the spectrum. So our two major parties, Republican and Democrat with Republican, it's we well known that those political parties as they exist currently are working to strip away rights from people in all of those identity and affinity groups. While the Democrats, which I won't even say left, because current Democrats are right of center, when you look at a global pe

 Link to Solutions article: HEREhttps://www.kitsapsun.com/story/opinion/columnists/2023/03/10/parent-group-offers-steps-toward-safety-inclusion-in-schools/69987422007/ Latino parent group presents steps toward safety, inclusion in schoolsDanielle S. CastillejoGuest columnOn February 7 community members gathered at a town hall meeting in Poulsbo to support the Latino Parent Group's request to the North Kitsap School District (NKSD) to investigate ongoing allegations of discrimination against students. At least 125 people attended, including Kitsap ERACE Coalition, the NAACP, Suquamish Tribal Elder Barbara Lawrence, Kitsap SURJ, local business owners, teachers, Poulsbo City Council, Kitsap Public Health, Kitsap Black Student Union, Kitsap Strong, Living Life Leadership, Poulsbo for All, Kitsap Mental Health Services representatives, Central Kitsap school administrators, Bainbridge Island school administrators, Bainbridge Island's mayor and Cultural Council, and many Latino families.We are grateful we are not alone. And we express our gratitude to the North Kitsap School District for processing some 85 emailed complaints and hiring an investigator to explore and resolve these concerns.In Kitsap County, we must urgently consider practical solutions for addressing racism in education, its effects on our youth's learning and mental health. Unaddressed racial trauma in our schools creates barriers to education, work, and mental and physical health. Our youth — all youth — are searching for ways to cope with the effects of racism, the pandemic and violence.Therefore, we must also urgently pursue healing. The North Kitsap Latino community offers the school district community-based practical solutions for forming partnerships with immigrants of other national origins, African Americans, Asian American/Pacific Islanders, and Indigenous students. Working together, we give all of our children a more inclusive society.In the words of Cesar Chavez: “We cannot seek achievement for ourselves and forget about progress and prosperity for our community. Our ambitions must be broad enough to include the aspirations and needs of others, for their sakes and for our own.”The problems the Latino community face are deeply rooted in Kitsap County's historical racism, discrimination, and resulting harm to others who are perceived as “different.” Latino families share an important indigeneity connection with the Suquamish and Port Gamble S'Klallam Tribes, on whose ancestral lands we are guests. We are deeply grateful for these Tribes' work and advocacy to achieve justice and healing on behalf of, not only themselves, but also many other Kitsap County communities, including ours.As committed investors in our county economically and socially, we are also deeply committed stakeholders in the education of our children. Empowering our Latino community and other communities of Color, which bear the impact of racism and discrimination, builds bridges and creates movement toward truth, healing, and reconciliation.In a story published by the Kitsap Sun last November on this issue, NKSD stated, "Students and families should feel welcome and have a sense of belonging in our schools. When there are barriers to this, it is on us to have the courageous conversations to make meaningful changes."To advance these aspirational goals, we have asked the NK School District for two things: Equal access to education for English language learners and a culture of belonging that includes educating and providing learning on nondiscrimination.We have also provided specific practical solutions:1.  An equity concern form to be provided in both English and Spanish. It may be completed by students, staff, parents or community members to report district or school equity concerns, as well as give positive feedback to the district.2. Critical communication such as student updates, school announcements, emergency messages, and counseling services will be made available in the top three languages other than English. Additionally, qualified interpreters will be made available for parents to communicate with administrators and educators at all school events.3. English-language acquisition and student supports:- English language learners will receive language support regularly, for a minimum 4 days a week, at 20 minutes a day. These students will be placed in classrooms with teachers trained in evidence-based teaching strategies while supported by administrators in their classroom needs.- The district ensures all students have access to understanding their class content and materials, in classes, such as English, math, science, music, and all electives. - English language learning will include support for speaking, listening, reading and writing skills.4. Professional development will be provided for administrators, teachers, para-professionals and any staff working with children and youth, covering these specific topics: the impact of racial trauma, understanding student needs, how to support students, mental health resources, equality, and equity.5. Paid community liaisons to provide direct support to families through advocacy, creating safety and belonging, and addressing mental health needs. Each of the following will have a liaison: African American, Asian American Pacific Islander, Latino and Indigenous communities.6. The Latino community will collaborate with the district and other community liaisons to gather and elevate the voice of their community needs to explore partnership opportunities. Then, within this partnership, they will form 2-, 3- and 5-year plans to ensure students of color and their parents are supported in their educational needs.7. An education equity council will review the equity concern forms, discuss solutions to equity concerns, implement solutions, advise the school administration and school board, and develop pathways to understanding on behalf of students and the district. These practical solutions undergird our children's education. Along with creating a sense of belonging, the solutions build important frameworks for trust among the district, the Latino community and other communities of color. When the Kitsap County Health Department declared racism a public health crisis in 2021, the county recognized our situation. Loneliness and a lack of belonging are common threads for children of all national origins and races in this post pandemic world. Our urgent desire for unity, coupled with practical solutions, supports this community in a world that is increasingly fragmented. Kitsap County students are asking our generation to provide safety, learning opportunities, and model inclusion, not racism. Let us follow their lead and work together. Danielle S. Castillejo writes on behalf of the North Kitsap School District Latino Parent Group and Kitsap Advocating for Immigrant Rights and Equality.

STOP the HARM NOWBackground informa/on, context and chronology of events: For those fighting racism in the North Kitsap School District In November you, NK families, were asked to come up with solutions to the problems your students and you are experiencing. As a member of the Poulsbo Latino community I was invited to support my community in coming up with viable solutions. A good place to start is by understanding the laws, policies and your rights.  My role here today is to share these guiding policies and laws with you so that you can come up with viable solutions.  I am also here to support your linguistic needs as an interpreter.  I am not here representing North Kitsap or my current district, again, I am here as a community member.  As I am not a representative of any district, I cannot answer questions regarding district work.  En noviembre se les pidió a ustedes, las familias de NK, que propongan soluciones a los problemas, y experiencias de sus estudiantes y ustedes. Como miembro de la comunidad latina de Poulsbo, fui invitada a apoyar a mi comunidad para encontrar soluciones. Un buen lugar para comenzar es comprender las leyes, las pólizas y sus derechos civiles. Estoy aquí hoy para compartir estas pólizas y leyes con ustedes para que guíen las soluciones. También estoy aquí para apoyar sus necesidades lingüísticas como intérprete. No estoy aquí representando a North Kitsap o mi distrito actual, nuevamente, estoy aquí como miembro de la comunidad. Como no soy representante de ningún distrito, no puedo responder preguntas sobre el trabajo del distrito.Guía de pólizas para estudiantes multilingües del estado de WA (página 36):Guía de derechos civiles del personal: los distritos escolares tienen la obligación de proporcionar el personal y los recursos necesarios para implementar de manera efectiva los modelos de Programa de Educación Transicional Bilingüe (TBIP). Esta obligación incluye tener maestros altamente calificados para brindar servicios de desarrollo del idioma inglés, maestros de contenido básico (por ejemplo, maestros de matemáticas, ciencias, ciencias sociales, etc), maestros capacitados y apoyados que brinden acceso significativo a contenido riguroso a nivel de grado, administradores capacitados en la adquisición de un segundo idioma que puedan evaluar a estos maestros y materiales adecuados y apropiados para el Programa de Educación Transicional Bilingüe.WA State Multilingual Learner Policies and Practices Guide (page 36): "Civil Rights Staffing Guidance—School districts have an obligation to provide the personnel and resources necessary to effectively implement their chosen Transitional Bilingual Instructional Program (TBIP) models. This obligation includes having highly qualified teachers to provide English language development services, trained and supported core content teachers who provide meaningful access to rigorous, grade-level content, administrators trained in second language acquisition who can evaluate these teachers, and adequate and appropriate materials for the TBIP program."Definiciones de Leyes:Castañeda Para Pickard la enseñanza del desarrollo del idioma inglés debe estar diseñada para satisfacer las necesidades individuales de progreso sostenido hacia el logro del dominio del inglés en la menor cantidad de tiempo (Castañeda v. Pickard, 1981, Tribunal de Apelaciones de EE. UU.).Castañeda Para Pickard proporciona una prueba de tres frentes para guiar a los distritos en el diseño, evaluación y mejora de su programa de desarrollo del idioma inglés para estudiantes de inglés/multilingües:El programa diseñado debe basarse en una teoría educativa sólida y/o resultados de investigación científica de alta calidad.El programa debe contar con el personal y los fondos suficientes.El distrito está obligado a evaluar la eficacia de los servicios proporcionados y hacer ajustes para garantizar que los estudiantes alcancen el dominio del idioma y el éxito académico.Definitions of Laws:Castañeda v. Pickard English language development instruction must be designed to meet individual needs for sustained progress toward reaching English proficiency in the least amount of time (Castañeda v. Pickard, 1981, U.S. Court of Appeals).Castañeda v. Pickard provides a three-pronged test to guide districts in designing, evaluating, and improving their English language development program for multilingual/English learners:Program designed must be based on sound educational theory and/or high-quality research findings.Program must be sufficiently staffed and funded.District is obligated to evaluate the effectiveness of the services provided and make adjustments to ensure students are achieving language proficiency and academic success.Lau Para Nichols:  Los estudiantes multilingües/de inglés elegibles deben recibir apoyos adecuados para un acceso significativo a contenido riguroso (Lau para. Nichols, 1974, Tribunal Supremo de EE. UU.). Actualizado en julio de 2022 3 Plyler v. Doe La Corte Suprema de EE. UU.Lau v. Nichols Eligible multilingual/English learners must be provided appropriate supports for meaningful access to rigorous content (Lau v. Nichols, 1974, U.S. Supreme Court). Updated July 2022 3 Plyler v. Doe The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in"Email #**:  English Language Learners/Access, Follow up on Town Hall, February 7, 2023(See youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/live/PrQ1voPeb8o?feature=share) & StatementParent - Volunteer (#4) Statement on English Language Learner Access for child:Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964(link is external) (34 C.F.R. Part 100)Title IV of the Civil Rights Act of 1964(link is external) (42 U.S.C. §2000c, et seq.)Executive Order 13166Email #** to be filed under NonDiscrimination and Civil Rights  (Discrimination can also occur when a school's policy is neutral on its face and is administered in an even handed manner but has a disparate impact—i.e., a disproportionate and unjustified effect—on students of a particular protected class.) Please follow 3210/3210P for investigation procedures, and investigate the English Language program, understand how it is currently operating, and make adjustments to comply with the law/s.STATEMENT: Parent - Volunteer -  Some of the things I believe could improve.Having better communication with families in their native language.Having an EL para at every school to provide services to students on a regular basis as part of their day. The district took that away a couple years ago and the services have not been consistent or successful.Students would also benefit from a curriculum like the one that was being used when every school had an EL para. The curriculum worked well, and kids were exiting the program due to the increase in vocabulary and understanding of the English language.A designated classroom would be ideal. Many EL kids use resources around them and for that reason they are always aware of what is going on around them. Working in the hall creates lots of distractions and is not a very healthy learning environment.You are seen as being "different" or being left out because communication is a problem. I understand the frustration of the families not speaking the language and not receiving support in their native language.I hope for the best outcome for these kids and families.It's time they receive what they are entitled, deserve and need.It's time for Equity.I ask the district to immediately address the English Language program in North Kitsap Schools, and utilize the EL resources we currently have, communicate with parents on how they can support their children and the district, and engage the solutions presented." To Whom It May Concern,  I am writing in response to the lack of action taken by the North Kitsap School District after repeated and clear reports of racist incidents amongst the Latino students, a lack of equal and just access to Education for English Language Learners, and refusal to act to create a culture of acceptance, belonging that includes educating staff on nondiscrimination.  As a mental health therapist in the state of Illinois, our school districts would never ignore the complaints and concerns this community have brought to your board and would have already made swift and significant change and have educators in place to teach teachers, staff and administration ways they can create a safe learning environment and easy access to learning for all students.    It is well researched and documented that student who attend schools where they do not feel safe from bullying and harassment and have no source of protection or support simply do not learn in these environments. They will often remain in a dysregulated state emotionally and their bodies will remain on high alert to protect themselves from possible attacks and harm.   A safe environment is a prerequisite for productive learning (Maslow, 1970; Piaget, 1936). If students feel unsafe at school, they may be less likely to go to school at all, or less able to focus on learning while at school. Your job as an administration is to create the kind of environment that is conducive to learning.  I am sad and angry that this has been an ongoing issue and that there is such a lack of movement to make corrections, come alongside the parents and students and to start a coordinated plan of action help create significant change.  I am asking that you listen to those who have concerns and the ideas they are presenting to help their kids be safe and the parents have appropriate was to communicate concerns with quick responses.  Cyndi Mesmer, LCPCOwner & Clinical DirectorThe Art of Living Counseling Center900 Pyott Road, Suite 102Crystal Lake, IL 60014Yourstorygroup.com

Hey y'all, some reason I have to think that all of us got into this work is because there's something about telling our story or being on the other side of listening to someone else's story that connects us. And it's not just the pain that connects us, it's the goodness that brings us together when we can be with another person in their pain and the story of their people and the pain of their people. And when we joined them in that, when we witnessed them in that story, there's a sense of love, a sense of healing, a sense of like, you're not alone anymore. A sense of we can be together on this and move forward. And so the past weekend, we weren't together. I felt that rupture. So what does it mean to tell a truer story? What does it mean to engage collective trauma, but also collective healing?I mean, when we think about collective trauma, it's a traumatic experience. Like here's the, like by the book Play of Collective Trauma, it's a traumatic experience that affects entire people, groups, communities, or societies. The size and scope of which shatter the very fabric of the communities impacted. I think about Uvalde, I think about Buffalo. I think about the Atlanta massacre. There's a number of examples we have in our communities of collective trauma. It not only brings distress and negative feelings and consequences to individuals, but it also changes the very fabric of our communities. A sense of life, like before the event, and a sense of life after the cataclysmic event. When I think about collective trauma and the Latinx story, it's like, how do we even define Latinx, right? Like, I'm Mexican. My mom's mostly indigenous, and her family came over from Mexico. Then I know there's those of us that come from other countries in Latin America that are often forgotten.There's Puerto Rico, there's Afro-Latinos, there's the indigenous Latinos, there's fair-skinned Latinos. There's really dark-skinned Latinos that aren't black. So we have this wide variety of what it is that's come to be called commonly as Latinx. So when we talk about telling, uh, a truer story, we're engaging all of these ethnicities at once under the Latinx umbrella, which actually isn't very fair. We're talking about memories. We have these collective traumas. We didn't really talk about collective resilience, but let's be real. We have collective ways of being resilient and surviving and thriving. We're not just surviving. Many of our communities are thriving in our own ways. But let's go back to collective memory. So we remember these historical accounts, and there's facts and events, but how do we make meaning of those facts? Or the memory is how we make meaning. What are the stories we tell about the events?It lives beyond the lives that are directly impacted. So there will be stories told about Uvalde, the stories told about the teachers, the stories told about the students, the parents who were waiting and fighting to get into the school. They will tell their own stories now. And in a generation, people will be telling stories about what they remember from the stories they were told. Collective memory is remembered by a group members that may be far removed from the original traumatic events in time and space. There's three things I want us to think about from a Latinx, and I'm, I know it's very general. I want us to think about [inaudible] heart to heart listening. I want us to think about testimonial like a testimony technically in English, but it's a sharing, telling or expressing these events in the presence of a collective community. It's a strategy for survival resistance, and it's a refusal rooted in indigenous traditions and the Latin American social movements.Speaker 2 (05:06):So I think that, that, that might be the sense of heart to heart listening, right? Like there's something that happens where, right, that, that's a part of the alignment is I can read with my eyes the, the space, right? And then this thing about testimonial, what comes to my mind is that the phraseology keeping it real, right? This idea that with there, like the story that is being told needs to be a true story. Mm-hmm. , we have lots of, you know, when you hear the snaps and all this, but the sense that something has resonated in my body, w with the sense of like, now what you just said is that that's the truth, right? Mm-hmm. and, and, and a problem. If that, if that's not what happens, right? To the point, that is a compliment. Oh, he keeps it real. She keeps it real. He keeps it 100, right? It's the basic sense. You're, you are telling, you're, you're saying the story that you're giving is the truer or truest version of what happened. Um, and probably for the last one, in terms of trust or confidence or inclusion, My, I I will probably say, um, the, the sense when I be like, oh, that's my girl and we're here, right? Mm-hmm. , that's, and again, with the eyes, it's something like these two things. If the first two things happen that leaves the door open for a sense of, there, there is a trust and a confidence in the sense that we are in alignment together, right? Right. And, um, if one of those three things is not legit, then you are out. We are like, we not here. Mm-hmm. , do you know what I'm saying? I mean, that's very, uh, colloquial in the language, but I think the, the, the dynamic is true nonetheless. Right? What's the version? And so there is a sense even that my whole body has to be engaged in the process for me to feel this kind of alignment. I need to see it, touch it, taste it, hear it. Like all of my senses need to be engaged before I feel like I could say, right? And if I, if I don't have that, I don't know. I don't know. You , right? Like, I don't know. You like that?Speaker 1 (07:32):Mm-hmm. ? Mm, mm-hmm. . Tj, any thoughts or anything to add or comments? Not yet that I'm enjoying this conversation. I think one thing I wanted to add, Brooklyn is like, trust is something that happened at my daughter's quinceanera. Now my fam, no, they're not my family, but I'm calling them my family. They all came and chow and Corte, it's their, um, their daughter and their, and their son-in-law came, the son-in-law's white. He's, and he's, he's joined the family. And, uh, they're always telling me like, Hey, he didn't say hi to so-and-so, can you help him out? You know? So he didn't speak.Speaker 2 (08:14):Yeah.Speaker 1 (08:15):Didn't speak. So, uh, that's a big thing, right? To say hi to everybody. I'm all say, Hey, did you say hi to them? He is like, I think I did. I'm like, brother, like, you better go do it again. They don't feel like you really said hi. He's like, I waved. I'm like, no. They wanna like, no, thatSpeaker 2 (08:29):Ain't no,Speaker 1 (08:30):No. They, you gotta like shake your hand. And so they're giving him, they're giving him hands, right? But they, they're keeping him. They're not, they're not, they're not pushing him out. And so at, at the point where the dancing was on and the dj, they requested a song and they're like, Sam, Sam, get out there and dance. And Sam was like, okay. And it's this, it's this, basically it's this Mexican line dance. And he was right on it. He had the whole dance down and everybody cheered for him. They were like, you're in, you're in. And they were going nuts. And afterwards he was glowing. He was so happy. And it, it wasn't a sense of like, if he didn't do it right, he was gonna be ridiculed. It was just like, you're part of us, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so that's kind of what I think too about trust and inclusion, like the trust to share moments like that with someone mm-hmm. even in fun times, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Does that make sense? ItSpeaker 2 (09:33):Makes perfect sense.Speaker 1 (09:35):I wish you could see this guideline dance. ItSpeaker 2 (09:38):Makes perfect sense.Speaker 1 (09:40):. And by the way, Mexicans do a lot of line dancing. And that's,Speaker 2 (09:44):I mean, you know, black people know a little bit, just a little bit, just a little bit about mine.Speaker 1 (09:50):So we have [inaudible] testimonial and za, these are the three elements that I believe are essential when bringing our voices, when bringing our stories, when living inside of the collective story of Latinx peoples. What happens when that story is fragmented or edited? When we just take out a little piece of history when we say, oh yeah, there were three cops at Uvalde. What happens to the story? What happens to the memory of that story? And how is that passed on from generation to degeneration?Speaker 2 (10:29):And by the time they get off the ship, it is, it is the creation of a new people group,(10:36):Which is, it's, it's mildly controversial, but not really. Cuz nobody, even though, even though there's a whole sort of back to Africa and I wanna do the 23 and me thing and find out like what tribe from Ghana I came from, it, it isn't really about that kind of fracturing, right? Mm-hmm. and I and so there wasn't people, there's something about what she said that resonates with people enough that you didn't hear any real pushback on, on that ideology. So I'm wondering Right, if I'm wondering about that, I'm wondering about that felt experience and lived reality and if the invitation, even in the Latinx experience, is to not, not, not fracture it that much, right? Is there some invitation in the text and in the lived experience that is about, we we're not going back to EdenSpeaker 1 (11:26):Mm-hmm.Speaker 2 (11:27):We're we like, we are pressing forward to, to the city of God and when we get there, your, you are, you will be able to hold and there's absolute invitation from Jesus to hold Mexican AmericanSpeaker 1 (11:44):Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. ,Speaker 2 (11:49):Right? In a way that would allow you to note the Asian ancestry and the African ancestry, whatever else in the indigenous ancestry with all the honor and celebration it deserves, and not have that be a fracture. But African American, it is, is a term of respect. And it, and it's also a notation that you are an outsider cuz we don't call each other that mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? So, and, and to me, whenever I say like Asian American, I feel stupid. Like I be, I feel like I'm un I'm entering into the conversation in a way that is unintelligent because I, I, I think it's a dishonor to, to slap that name when what I really wanna know is what country are you from? And is it better for me to identify you as Japanese-American or Chinese-American or Taiwanese than it is for me to say Asian American. You know what I mean? Like, I, I just feel the awkwardness of how's this gonna read a a again, I think because I'm aware none of these are self named monikers. Mm-hmm. , they're all imposed, but, um, by whiteness. And so it always feels awkward.Speaker 1 (13:09):And I mean, the additional con conversation for Latinx, even Latinx, I hate that word, but even the additional conversation is how have people of all these various backgrounds had to rally together to fight western intervention in their cities, in their countries, you know? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So they have to rally around that. But even that gets confusing because with the infusion of like money and power from the United States or other outside interests, it even splits. It splits people even more. But I think when people get to the United States, they say stuff like, I'm Cuban. Mm-hmm. , you know, or I'm Mexican. There's not, there's a way of surviving in that. Right?Speaker 2 (13:56):Right. Plus what do you do with the, because like where I grew up, if you were Puerto Rican on the west coast, that made you Mexican, but if you're Puerto Rican on the east coast, you are black like end of story, end of conversation. And so even, even that is like mm-hmm. . Yeah. Like all, yeah, all those, all those lines, it is different.Speaker 1 (14:25):So trauma decontextualized over time in a family can look like family trait and trauma decontextualized in a people can look like culture. Yeah. SMA MEK had a lot of good points there. As I say that, what do you notice in your body? Are you numb? Are you angry? Are you frustrated? Why is intergenerational story important to you? Why do you think it's important to La Latinx peoples, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans folks from El Salvador, Argentina? Why does collective story matter? And what happens when that story is fragmented or edited? If we just take out a piece of the story like in Alde, what was going on for you when you believed that there were only three police officers there when there were 10, when there was a possibility that the police didn't arrive until after the shooting started, that the door was locked to the school? What happens when we edit the story of a people group, or the traumas that a people group's experienced, or what happens when we edit the healing power that a culture has within itself? When we forget about Tika, when we forget about testimonial, when we forget about the idea of za, and that at the root of our culture perhaps was inclusion and trust,Speaker 2 (15:59):I think in some ways we've been asserting that the, the whole, this whole time, right? This idea that like, if you're black, you need to lean fully in into that and fully into the ways in which your culture, that culture has made you, made, made pathways towards healing for you mm-hmm. , right? And the way that your culture has understood and made meaning out of your story, um, and, and, and therefore created avenues of, of, of, of, of healing for you, right? In, in a sense, you're asking what archetypes right? Ha has, has your culture created for you? Um, and, and, and, and that the more that we do that, the less dissonance we have, right? Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . Um, and in some ways the very creation of sort of the identity of the oppressed, right? Is the, the, the, the very identity that gets created under the force and weight of oppression is that is what healing looks like, right?(17:04):I mean the, like, the meaning that gets made out of the identity of the hyphenated existence is to define the harm and then define what it looks like could be healed from it mm-hmm. in a way that is unique to the story that you have, right? And then the truth is the same is true for the majority culture, right? I mean, and the, and the work that will have to be done on behalf of our white brothers and sisters is what does it look like to tell a true story? And what does healing look like? Mm-hmm. , right? And, and I think the, the pitfall is if the invitation at a majority culture is to not tell the true story, if the invitation out of the perpetrator culture is to be dismissive and to live in a level of denial for what the true story is, you never get to those pathways or architects of healing because you, you can't admit that harm has actually been done.Speaker 1 (17:57):I actually have a frame in my body that's working towards healing. I have been created that way. And that is good.Speaker 2 (18:06):And that is resiliency, right? It is the God given capacity to navigate the harm that is embedded in your story, right? And, and it is this sense that Jesus knew in this world you will have trouble. Like, like it's, it's, it, trauma is going to hit you, right? But, but I have embedded in, in, in, in your collective story, a a sense of what healing looks like and redemption looks like for you, right? And, and, and resiliency is your, is really in some ways the capacity to tap into that mm-hmm. and to leverage it.Speaker 1 (18:47):I'm gonna jump into something a little more heady, even though it's about the body. So this chart's gonna pop up and you're gonna look at it and you're gonna be like, what the heck? Well, the chart is made by my friend Jenny McGrath, and she has, uh, worked it from Ruby j Walker, and so it's been adapted. So we have a number of citations here, and I want you to notice that's very important, and this is my take on this chart. Our different cultures allow us to be in these different states and, and kind of like what we've talked about before. And that's not wrong. And, and I think, I think what's hard about this is that some of our resiliency has been pathologized.Speaker 2 (19:32):Yes. Mm-hmm. , very much so, right? And the, the simple argument that, uh, uh, because our, our whatever reaction we took in the moment was in fact a reaction to something traumatic is the thing that pathologizes it, right? And, and I, I think that's a mistake. It's like to say that we were kicked out of the garden, and because of that, we built, we built a response to that severing that the response itself is pathological. Because our goal is to be back where we were in the garden before sin entered it. That that's not how the story go. That's not how it works. Mm-hmm. , right? I mean, yes, we were excised from the garden, right? And what's pathological is that she ate the damn apple when you kind said don't do it, that that part is a problem. But, but, but, but the capacity that we developed to live life outside of the garden is not itself pathological simply because it is in reaction to the fact that we no longer live in the garden, right?(20:37):That the, like, there will be a reaction and there's good reaction and healthy reaction that is, that is in fact resiliency. Mm-hmm. . And then there are other reactions that are pathological that are problematic and that we do need to address, right? Mm-hmm. . But the simple factor that something is a reaction to a traumatic event does not itself pathologize it. Mm-hmm. , right? And this is the part where I, I, I, tide Trit has a song, um, and there's a line in the song where he says, um, something of like, the devil's gonna wish he never messed with me because I, like, I came back stronger and better than I would if, if he would've left me alone in the first place. Right? And so there, there's, there's something I think we're missing in the theological frame that that is like, um, the, there's something that happens in the WestEd and for evil, God moves for good. There's something in whatever that switch is that rotation, that flip that is of significant valueSpeaker 1 (21:46):Mm-hmm.Speaker 2 (21:47):, right? And if we simply pathologize it, because it is a reaction to a move of evil, we have missed the, like, the mystery of God in that moment to take a thing that was meant to be our downfall, and not only caused us to survive it, but to, but it is that thing that actually makes us better, stronger, more like him, right? And so, so that in and of itself is good. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. , I, and so there's something of the ability to move up and down this chart that is, that is freaking brilliantSpeaker 1 (22:23):Mm-hmm. . So, so I think I wanna go back to that story in Genesis. And when, you know, they ate the apple and then God came walking through, he, he asked them where they were, and, and through the conversation he says to them, you know, he finds out that they ate this apple and that that's why they were, you know, wearing, had sewed these fig leaves and made this, this, um, made these like coverings, right? I'm assuming for their body. But that's not, they weren't in trouble for their shame about their body. Mm-hmm. , you know, that's not why he, he kicked them out of Eden. It was for what they did, right? And then actually when they were out of Eden, he honored that shame. He made them close out of animals. So God actually didn't take them, didn't take their shame and move them through this polyvagal chart and force them to be calm in their body in a certain way.Speaker 3 (23:24):I think that's a really important thing to say. Mm-hmm. ,Speaker 2 (23:30):Right? And, and I think there's also a sense in which(23:36):That what, what you're, what that means then is that something was fundamentally altered in Adam and Eve, and they never got to go back to the state in which they were in Eden as if it had never happened. Right? And, and, and I think there's something about the gospel that is, um, that that isn't what, that's not what you're meant for, right? There's a kind of naivete before she eats the apple mm-hmm. , right? That we, we don't get to go back to mm-hmm. . And, and there might be some loss there, right. Of, of, of innocence, right? But there's also something to be gained in the process of having God honor the shame and re reshape it and reimagine it for us, right? Mm-hmm. . And, and it, um, there's a quote on my Facebook page, something of like, uh, um, a gratitude that I have for my struggle because in it, I stumbled across my own strength mm-hmm.(24:42):. And, and so there's something, I think, uh, there's something that we gain in the wrestling and the struggling and the coming out in a place of God honoring where we've been, including the shame that we have felt that that, so you don't ever really get to go back home again, right? Like, you never get to go back to life before the apple, but you do know the grief of having ate the apple, the agony of having eaten the apple and the sweetness of God having restored your relationship to him even after you ate the apple, right? That, and so there's a different depth to your relationship with Jesus.Speaker 1 (25:25):So the polyvagal chart, I think some people are like, what the heck is a polyvagal? And it, it's this nerve and it's got like this bowl of like nerve endings in your gut, and you have all of these neurons around there. So when people think they say, well, I'm thinking with my gut. Yeah, you are. You literally are. And when you feel, feel like I have a gut feeling or my stomach's upset, or I can't breathe, what's going on for your body, you're likely somewhere on this chart, or the way perhaps our cultures have been pathologized for staying in different places in this right cycle. And therefore, as a practitioner working in a cross-cultural environment, we have to come in with an attitude of first alignment and then willingness. Yes. To be curious and receive, you know what Ernest said, that criticiz ability,Speaker 2 (26:23):Right? Right. That plus I think, like I said, I think there's a time and a place for every single thing on here. So some of the pathologizing of communities of color is like, sometimes vigilance is not hypervigilance, sometimes it's just situationally appropriate vigilance, right? . And, and the problem is that the majority culture is isn't isn't paying attention to the power dynamics in the room. So they are misreading the need for vigilance in the room, right? And so and so then I'm not actually in this pathological space of hypervigilance, right? I'm not in this space of PTSDs where I'm actually not on the battlefield. And so my vigilance doesn't make any sense. I actually am, and my body is rightfully reading some sense of threat in the room. The problem is that in your not reading the room, well, as you know, as a, as a member of the culture that happens to be in power in that moment, you, you're, you're, you're not, you're not being honest about what the dynamics in the room really are.Speaker 1 (27:32):So thinking about the dorsal vagal system, dorsal vagal, sorry, it's freeze and appease. So in freeze we have some categories. Now these are categories that can be defined within each culture. They're not gonna look the same for me as they look for you. And this is something that we have to engage one another in curiosity and kindness. And as a therapist, I don't make assumptions about you, um, where you might be on this polyvagal chart, I chart, I can notice with you where you might be or what I'm experiencing. And then it's a collaborative effort for us to kind of decode what language comes between us. So I'm saying those, these words with that caveat in mind. So we have freeze, which is dissociation, depression, um, raised pain threshold, um, helplessness, shame. We have appease lack of boundaries, overcompensating, victimization, acquiescing. When you are in freeze and appease, that's gonna look different based on your individual story and your collective story.(28:38):And boundaries are defined differently. Overcompensating is defined different differently, victimization, acquiescing, all these things. So that's why it's important that you're in community when you're experiencing. You may feel like, Hey, I, I'm in this trauma state and, and I can tell you honestly, I was a little bit depressed this weekend and dissociated, uh, and what I experienced, just kind of being zoned out around my family, not able to focus after not being able to be together this weekend. We also have the sympathetic activation, which is fight flight. So fight again. Now, uh, western psychology has pathologized many of these words. So I want you to take these words with the caveat that I'm speaking from a particular location, from a particular education, which is largely a European white lens. And I am additionally adding on this lens of my Latinx culture and history and how I'm raising my kids.(29:33):So you're gonna hear all of that mixed together. So fight is rage, anger, irritation, and honestly, a lot of those I've needed to make change. Um, I'm gonna think about flight, panic, fear, anxiety, worry, concern. And again, have you been in those states? Cuz I have been, I've been worried, like, how's the group gonna be? How am I gonna be? Um, are we gonna be able to hang together? What's this gonna cost one another? Um, then I wanna think about ventral vagal, and that's called rest and digest. So you have words like centered, grounded, settled, curiosity and openness, compassionate and mindful of the present moment. It's possible you may be going up and down this chart, like what is Danielle gonna say? Mm-hmm. , what is Rebecca gonna say? What will happen in this moment mm-hmm. and, and to, for us to honor those bodily experiences. And maybe, you know, how we did with Jenny, just slow down and ask mm-hmm. , because I will be going up and down this chart during the talk because, you know, there's performance pressure. There's the idea of I wanna honor my culture. There's the idea of how do I interpret myself mm-hmm. . So I think it's fair to name that.Speaker 2 (30:59):Yeah. And that there are really good reasons why Right. That that, you know, and, and how do you step into a sense of self-evaluation about how much,(31:14):What, where's the line for me between like, this is a, a, a resilient response that I need to honor. And where there are places where there's some hyper vigilance, right? I mean, not that you wouldn't honor all of it, but to help them start to understand like there, there are resilient reactions and then there are reactions that are more about like being resigned to, to the weight o of our collective stories. Right? And the, the text doesn't ask us to be resigned. Right? Right. It it, it asks us, uh, to, to fight and to persevere, right? Um, and to press on towards the mark.Speaker 1 (31:51):And in in fact, that's what, you know, that's where we can come back to. Like, God didn't ask Adam to get on with it to like stay naked, right? And he didn't even call it out as a problem. He's just like, here man, here's some nicer clothes. Right?Speaker 2 (32:11):Right. And right. And, and, and you can almost hear in that a sense of like, like, Eden is where you started, but it isn't where you're gonna end up. And, and, and, and there is a journey that we will be on together, right? And so like, there's some things you're gonna need for the journey, including some clothes.Speaker 1 (32:33):And so you're gonna say, well, maybe I've been there this weekend too, but maybe you had trauma. So what is normal? It is normal to go through these different areas on the chart with some fluidity to move between them. And it's also normal for you to be a part of a collective that may be feeling a collective response to a trauma or to even a good moment. And for you also to have your own individual experience. So it's far more complex than either or. It's likely both. And.  

Latino parents, students say they face racism, discrimination at North Kitsap HighPeiyu LinKitsap SunNORTH KITSAP — More than 40 members of the Latino community gathered in the library of North Kitsap High School on Tuesday to tell high school administrators about instances of discrimination against Latino students.Participant after participant stood up and spoke, most in Spanish, offering testimonies that ranged from stories of racial bullying on school buses and on campus to not getting important school notices for parents printed in Spanish. One parent shared a story of her son being subjected to racial stereotypes, being told by a teacher he eats too many burritos.The meeting was organized by NK High Principal Megan Sawicki. Danielle Castillejo, a therapist, and her husband, Luis, parents of students at North Kitsap High School and Poulsbo Middle School, led most of the conversation and interpreted what Latino families shared from Spanish to English to the Sawicki. They also interpreted what Sawicki said from English to Spanish to the attendees. A Kitsap Public Health District community engagement specialist was at the meeting to help with the interpretation.Sawicki said she called the meeting after hearing from Castillejo and other Latino families that there was a need to better understand the experiences of Latino families and students in North Kitsap High School, and what the school can do to make them better."I may not have all the answers, but I'm hoping that we can — I can — start learning a little more from you about how things are going for you and for our kids," Sawicki told those at the meeting.Some parents said that some teachers do not respect Latino students and the Hispanic culture they belong to. Others said their students are being bullied on campus and on school buses, and when they reached out to the school to report it, their requests were ignored or not followed up on by school administrators. One parent said that a teacher told a student their performance was harmed because they had eaten too many burritos. One said students are not taught to be proud of their culture at school.Some said Latino students were not given assistance in applying for college or given information about scholarships. One shared that a student was discouraged to pursue his dream when the student told a teacher he wants to become an engineer. One claimed that Latino parents didn't get notices to attend school meetings and that none of the information provided by the school was in Spanish, creating a barrier for Latino parents who speak little English to understand what happens at school.The system needs to be changed, they said, and they urged the district to hold more meetings in the future.Melissa Ramirez, whose parents are immigrants, graduated from NKHS in June. She said she never saw any representation of her culture in her years growing up in North Kitsap and she felt she had to leave her culture to fit in at school."And the reason why I'm saying this in English is because the school system did rob me of a lot of my Spanish-speaking skills," Ramirez said at the meeting.Ramirez's parents are immigrants from Mexico and she was born and raised in Washington. Ramirez is now a freshman at Western Washington University studying business administration with a concentration in marketing, she said.Ramirez said her university has an ethnic student center that provides support for students of color, and she wishes she would have had that in North Kitsap.Julie Castillejo, Danielle Castillejo's daughter, an NK sophomore, said on Skyward, an online portal where North Kitsap High School communicates with students and parents, the system automatically put her race as "Chicano," which refers to Mexicans living in the U.S., and her main language as Spanish, instead of leaving the race and language parts blank for her to decide. Julie said she's three-quarters Mexican and one-quarter European."It was unfair for them to just assume my race and it wasn't the right thing to do," Julie Castillejo told Kitsap Sun.Charo De Sanchez, a Latino community leader and a parent who previously had a child in the district, told the Kitsap Sun she thinks teachers should be educated to respect the Latino Hispanic community, She said students learn from their behaviors.Danielle Castillejo said that more meetings are needed to discuss discrimination and racism against Latino students."Latino students are under-resourced, so we need to create more resources, more options," she told the Kitsap Sun. "The first thing we need to have is that the teachers are able to have some training on inclusivity."In a written statement sent to the Kitsap Sun following the meeting, the North Kitsap School District said that the district is "deeply saddened" by the examples shared and that it is committed to listening to students, parents and the community to address discrimination and racist behavior."While the stories we have heard in this meeting are hard to hear, we are grateful that our students and families feel safe in talking about these concerns with us; we realize that has not always been the case," the district said in the statement. "Students and families should feel welcome and have a sense of belonging in our schools. When there are barriers to this, it is on us to have the courageous conversations to make meaningful changes."The district said providing equitable access to educational opportunities for all students is in its strategic plan and that efforts to support staff development in diversity, inclusion and equity began in 2019 and continue."We have worked in partnership with many community members, our two sovereign nations, and families to improve how we serve all students. We have increased support resources at all schools in response to concerns and needs," the district said in the statement.The district said that all secondary schools have student voice groups with diverse representation that meet with the superintendent. Creating a safe, welcoming, inclusive school where all students and their families feel like they belong is the school district's top priority, it said. It encouraged students to report concerns immediately."As we are learning from our students we continue to work to improve systems, structures and their school experience," the statement said.Reach breaking news reporter Peiyu Lin at pei-yu.lin@kitsapsun.com or on Twitter @peiyulintw. Since late 2022, KAIRE has supported and come alongside the grassroots efforts of Latino/a/x students, families, and community of North Kitsap, amplifying their concerns and self-advocacy within North Kitsap School District (NKSD). These are broadly stated as equal access to education for English Language Learners and pursuit of a culture of belonging with teacher skills development in nondiscrimination. KAIRE and Latino/a/x community have articulated these issues and proposed specific solutions, directly communicated to NKSD in the FEB 22, 2023 "Seven Solutions" letter. For months, NKSD has failed to meaningfully engage with individual families or respond with a plan to implement the proposed solutions. KAIRE supports Latino/a/ students, families, and community in their demand that NKSD meet them on theirterms. The table must be set by community, not by the District. https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2023/02/06/latino-parent-group-meeting-with-north-kitsap-schools-over-race-issues/69864128007/

LINKS to ARTICLEShttps://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2022/11/26/latino-parents-students-discrimination-racism-at-north-kitsap-high-school/69673972007/https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2023/02/06/latino-parent-group-meeting-with-north-kitsap-schools-over-race-issues/69864128007/https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/opinion/columnists/2023/03/10/parent-group-offers-steps-toward-safety-inclusion-in-schools/69987422007/https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2023/05/22/eliminate-racial-violencehundreds-protests-at-nksd-for-racial-discrimination-against-latino-students/70229951007/https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/opinion/readers/2023/05/20/we-have-no-confidence-in-nksd-leadership-to-handle-racism-bullying/70237118007/https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2021/05/07/kitsap-public-health-district-declares-racism-public-health-crisis/4984962001/IN Partnership with KAIRE:Kitsap Advocating for Immigrant Rights & EqualitySince late 2022, KAIRE has supported and come alongside the grassroots efforts ofLatino/a/x students, families, and community of North Kitsap, amplifying their con-cerns and self-advocacy within North Kitsap School District (NKSD). These are broadlystated as equal access to education for English Language Learners and pursuit of aculture of belonging with teacher skills development in nondiscrimination. KAIRE andLatino/a/x community have articulated these issues and proposed specific solutions,directly communicated to NKSD in the FEB 22, 2023 "Seven Solutions" letter. Formonths, NKSD has failed to meaningfully engage with individual families or respondwith a plan to implement the proposed solutions. KAIRE supports Latino/a/xstudents, families, and community in their demand that NKSD meet themon theirterms. The table must be set by community, not by the District.Speaker 1 (00:25):Good morning. Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender healing. Um, sometimes we're talking a lot about the church, and you may have noticed a few months hiatus. Partly that is due to me, Danielle Rueb, Castillejo, doing this on my own, and also just in February, having a town hall and gathering the community together, which I want to talk more about and, and which this situation with the school board has not been resolved yet. So sadly, that has taken an, an honorable place of, of my time and I'm continuing to work towards that. But I thought it might be helpful to tell a little bit of the history of how that got started and, um, what happened for me and why the meeting happened in November of 2022. If you're following along, I'll put some links to the Kitsap Sun articles, uh, in the notes.  But if you're following along with the story, there was an original meeting in November 22nd, 2022 at North Kitsap High School in the library. It was me, my husband, uh, a couple of community members I didn't really know very well. And then we had like seven to 10 days, I can't remember exactly, I could look it up in my notes to invite, uh, community members, la Latino community members. But there was things and events that preceded, um, preceded that meeting time in November. And I think those, that's part of the history that's important to know over the last three years and actually since maybe even like 2015 and right leading up to Trump's election, there were so many things that happened in the school that Luis and I, my husband, my partner and I, we just really let them slide, uh, microaggressions with the kids, bullying comments at school.  And, you know, we semi address them, semi didn't address them, but just kind of trusted the school district to be following up on those issues. In 2016 when Trump was elected, I got a call from a friend and she said, Hey, we're not doing the celebration of Guadalupe. Everybody's afraid to meet, you know, Trump made president. This is a scary time. And if you're not familiar, what it is, uh, of, uh, December is the celebration of the Virgin of Guadalupe, the que that app appeared in Mexico and she's called the que de Guadalupe. And, and so I won't go into that history, but to celebrate that there's a mass, uh, there's singing, there's a process of communion, and then there's a celebration afterwards. So like the kids would dance, like sometimes there's mariachi, um, there's professional dancers that would come all, all the way to this little town here in Paul's bow.  And my kids, we got four little kids, they were always invited to participate by one of my dear friends. So I was assuming this event would happened. I got a call from my friend like, hey, it's not going to happen. And, and there's a lot of fear in the community, and we said, no, like, let's make it happen. Let's move in solidarity, let's do this thing. And I even had a little op-ed, uh, published in the Seattle Times about, uh, this event. So we had, we had the celebration of Guadalupe. It was amazing, amazing food. And Trump, uh, his presidency continued for the next four years, obviously, and 2020 hit and we were in election season and then suddenly it was also pandemic season. And so we were all at home. And it, it quickly became clear to me, um, just in my own personal family situation and with the other situations that I knew of in the community, that not everything was equal.  Not everything was going to be fair staying at home. When we first were at home, we had this, we didn't actually pay for internet at our house. I was in grad school at the time. I was trying to graduate 2020. I was going to graduate. We had this little hotspot we had bought on Verizon and we paid for a certain amount of like, gigs of internet per month. And we only turned it on when we really needed it. And we, we tried to limit our data too. So all of a sudden, imagine you got like four children at home, husband's unemployed, I need to do grad school. And we're all freaking sitting around our table cuz we live in a small house and, and we're trying to do schoolwork and we're, we got this hotspot running. Um, that's, that's an example of something that happened. And it, it took a few months, I think for us to get internet out to our house.  Speaker 1 (05:14):Um, just, they were backed up and whatnot. But I actually had a friend offer to pay for our internet. And that's what helped us get us through what was during this time that things became even more apparent in the school system. To me, various things happened to my kids, even being online. We struggled in a rural area to, um, my kids struggled to, when they would turn their homework in online, it would show that it was turned in on our side, but at the school side, it would look like they hadn't turned in any homework. And so, for instance, one of my children, it, it showed like complete zeros everywhere and being in grad school and all the stress we had, I I, I didn't pay attention till I got a letter and someone's like, like, yo, your kid's failing class, so that's not like my child. So we contacted the high school, um, a math teacher was super helpful and an English teacher was so helpful and they were like, look, like we think something's wrong here, like, what's going on with your kid?  Speaker 1 (06:21):So it was a combination of factors, combination of internet, combination of overwhelm in a house where you have kids with different learning styles and needs and we didn't have access to separate rooms and the internet capacity to do that. And that's when I think it just picked up. We had some bus incident bullying with my daughter being called effing Dora. Prior to this we had an incident at the middle school where my son was targeted and pulled in and said they had a video of him, uh, like basically like messing with gas caps of cars and siphoning gas. And when he said like, Hey, can you check the attendance? They're like, no, we have this video. So we had other experiences. Like I said, I, I just won't forget one of the teachers who I won't name here, just the callousness, the lack of engagement and uh, lack of understanding. And we didn't say anything about it. I'm not in charge of anybody else's how they're responding in a meeting. I just wanted to help my son get through, you know, this school year.  Speaker 1 (07:30):So as you can imagine, it was hard. It was really hard. And uh, fall of 2020 was brutal. And 2021 was just as hard. So things began to build up for us. Had trouble getting this particular teacher to accept assignments from my son, had trouble communicating with this person and I was working full-time. My husband ended up having to quit his job because we could not manage four children in school and all of us absent all the adults absent from the home. Of course, of course not. It's not meant, it's not meant to be like that. My husband would go into the school district or the school and ask for things either at the middle school or high school. Like he would often encounter a barrier just at, at the front desk. I mean, he's very dark brown and curly hair and speaks English, but you know, he has an accent I can understand and many, many people understand him. But, but in that frame, it became really hard for him to access the help he needed for our kids. Then I would have to send an email and when I would send an email, then there would be a response, but response to him, no. So this thing snowballed. Like we tried to have a meeting with the superintendent, tried to get this scheduled. It got put off until fall of 2022 September.  Speaker 1 (08:59):So we get a meeting scheduled, we get it on the calendar. I'm a licensed mental health therapist associate in Washington. So I have like clients scheduled, like, you know, scheduled weeks out. They have their time during the day. So when we scheduled this appointment with the superintendent, I made sure to be careful of my schedule, arranged it around her, and the day before she changes it by an hour. And that messed with me and my schedule and my client. But I said, you know what, I, I need to do this for my child. So I moved my client, I was able to move. My client showed up to the meeting. I think it was like an hour before the meeting, the superintendent emails like, oh, sorry, emergency came up. I won't be there.  Speaker 1 (09:43):We're talking like a year since the first incident happened. Over a year. Show up to the meeting. I had some community witnesses there. My husband and I were able to tell our story. There was some response, some compassion. Um, and outta that meeting, a principal of the high school invited, invited us to gather some of the families from the school. We set a date. The first day didn't work. And then we landed on November 22nd. It was the week of Thanksgiving last year. And I was like, man, I don't know if anybody's gonna come. And I was honestly afraid to invite people. I didn't know if other people, I knew other people were talking about issues, but I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know. We put the word out, text messages, kind of like called friends, but it was last minute. There wasn't a lot of notice. There was there was like, we made like a handmade flyer. Um, not a lot of social media. If you go back and look through my social media, there just wasn't a lot at that time.  Speaker 1 (10:48):Show up to the school. The meeting was supposed to start at six 30. I show up around six and I'm getting calls at like, people are like, Hey, where are you at? I'm like, Hey, the meeting doesn't start yet. And people are like, Hey, we're here. So we go in the meeting. Um, it becomes really apparent that we wanted to talk through some stories but also move towards solutions. We really wanted to move towards solutions in this first meeting, but what became really apparent is that the racism and the discrimination and the stories of the people that attended, which was somewhere between 40 and 50, it was so significant that we were not gonna get through just like three stories and people were gonna feel cared for almost three hours later. We ended this meeting. We did not get to solutions. We, we committed at that meeting to get to solutions, but we didn't get to them. So much trauma, so much harm happened in the last few years. And I'm not talking just North Kitsap High school people showed up that attended other schools in our districts because they had not had a way to communicate where, where they felt safe and heard.  Speaker 1 (11:57):And I left that meeting and for days I just was tired and sick and my body was achy. It's something, you know, it's kind of like one thing when you know your family's experiencing discrimination, but it's another thing when you hear the discrimination happening on all fronts with other families. And there were kids in this meeting, teenagers, and you know, when teenagers are in these meetings, they are normally like, uh, they're like looking at their phones, they're like texting, whatever. Like no one was doing that. No one. And so I just wanna point out that this is the history, this is where this came from. I didn't know these families had these stories. I had heard rumors and I wanted to hear from them, but I didn't know what we were opening up. And it wasn't just stories about Latinx families, it was stories about what happened to African American folks in school, what happened to native folks, what happened to Asian American folks in school?  Speaker 1 (13:02):There were stories, there were stories about people feeling suicidal, people having their mental health affected stories about not knowing how to apply to college, not having the resources to do it. And I won't repeat the trauma stories here because some of them are documented in the news articles in the notes. But what I wanna say is this movement in North Kitsap school district has a history. And it has a history far bigger than my family. It has a history far bigger than my kids. And also because we're exposing the history, there's blowback, there's payback, there's slander, there's gossip, there's other people like pushing in because justice has been stalled for so long. Equal access to education for so long, discrimination has just been a given. It's been a given. Racialized comments and stereotypes. I mean it's a given.  Speaker 1 (14:03):And I think at the beginning I had some naive idea that when we would come back to solutions in which we did get to solutions in February when we didn't hear back from the school district that somehow those solutions, they would, the school district would see them as proactive, as good, as caring, as like we're invested in our community, but that's not how it's gone. So I wanna tell more of that story later, but I just wanted to share the history of how November came to be. Some of the details of how, how it got planned, which was barely any plan at all. Not even like planning for an official interpreter. Thank God some people just showed up that could help with that. Because I can tell you that Luis and I were beat like so tired at the end of that. And I wanted to share where I've been for the last few months, been involved in organizing bridge building, doing a lot of apologizing, a lot of learning, a lot of crying, a lot of frustration and a lot of like working in systems that are actually not meant to prevent racial violence or discrimination.  Speaker 1 (15:15):They're actually meant to prevent equal access to education. These systems aren't looking for solutions. And so when we walk in with solutions, they're like, what the heck is this? But it, I don't think it has to be that way. I think our county can be different and that may be a fool's errand. I don't know. Sometimes I think it's very foolish. Hope is like that. It can feel very foolish. But I wanna acknowledge that there's been amazing community support and unity. We don't always think the same. We don't always have the right way to get there. We don't know how to get there. We have different problems sometimes we don't like the person we're organizing with. That's all true. But the fact is, we want something better for our kids. We want our kids to have access to education. We want our kids to live in a place where they feel like they belong and they don't need to resort to suicide and gun violence and they can come to us for help with anxiety and mental health issues, depression, sadness. I think we can't agree on those things and that's why I'm here in my community and that's why I've stayed because I believe that as humans we do share those things in common. And um, I hope you'll follow along on the next few podcasts as we tell more of these stories. And um, I'm just honored to be able to share a bit of this history with you today and go ahead and check out the notes. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.  

Listen to this fun conversationwith @indwell_movement and @abbymwong and myself@artoflivingcounselingcenter as we talk about attachment,somatic body movement, and group work in the context ofstory. I love these fierce, brilliant and playful woman and welove doing our Trauma Focused Narrative Group Trainingsand would love to have you join us for our upcoming springcohort. Deadline for registration is Friday February 24th. Sosign up today. You can find out more information and registerwhen you click the link in my bio or visitartoflivingcounseling.com under Trainings. We would love tojourney with you!The Teaching teach and coaches:@abbymwong@indwell_movement@luisdaniellecastillejo@rebecca.w.walston@artoflivingcounselingcenter#traumainformed#collectivetrauma#somaticmovement#attachment#inclusive#trainings#racialequity#continuingeducation

TELLING A TRU(ER) STORY MASTER CLASSAre you struggling with a traumatic experience or maybe trying to better understand how your past keeps impacting your present?  Are you in a helping profession (mental health professionals,  ministers, spiritual directors, teachers, mentors) and want to learn how to assist others that are navigating traumatic experiences?Introducing a NEW 2-Track professional training from The Art of Living Counseling Center.Final registration closes on February 24, 2023. Don't miss out. https://artoflivingcounseling.com/professional-training/ Cyndi Mesmer Speaker & Facilitator Cyndi Mesmer, LCPC identifies as a white cisgender, able-bodied, straight woman. She is the clinical director and co-owns, with her husband Steve, The Art of living Counseling Center in Crystal Lake, IL. Cyndi worked as a teacher, supervisor and trainer at The Allender Center in Seattle WA. Cyndi has worked in all levels of care for mental health.She has about 30 years of experience working with individuals, families and groups. She primarily works with clients working through trauma, both past and present. She sees the world through the lens of story and invites others to engage their stories in a way that brings more freedom and life, both personal and communal. She is a seeker of racial justice and advocate for other oppressed groups believing that there should be equal rights and flourishing for all humans. You can read more at www.artoflivingcounseling.com Rebecca Wheeler Walston Guest Speaker & Facilitator Rebecca Wheeler Walston holds a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and currently serves as a Fellow with The Allender Center, facilitating Story Workshops and NFTC. Rebecca also comes to this work through The Impact Movement, a college ministry to Black students, as Impact partners with The Allender Center to bring this work to BIPOC spaces in creative and innovative ways. She lives in Williamsburg, VA with her husband Vaughn and their two children, where Vaughn works as an Engineer and Rebecca runs a Law Practice and serves as General Legal Counsel for The Impact Movement, Inc. Danielle S. Castillejo Guest Speaker & Facilitator Danielle holds an MA in Counseling in Psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate in Washington State, story lover, owner of Way-Finding Therapy, podcaster, avid reader, writer, adventurer and advocate.She works and advocates from an anti-oppression lens, holding space for hope, love and repair. She loves the anticipation of Spring and Summer in the Northwest – the long days and sunlight we miss in the dark winters. You can easily find her out on a trail, laughing, cooking with her kids, or working in the yard.If you choose to reach out and we embark on a counseling journey together, it will be one that is co-created. I do not believe that I have all of the answers, nor all of the ideas or intellect to guide you. I trust my body and intuition. I trust your body and intuition. We will work with both narrative and somatic narrative. I believe our bodies tell a story. You can read mine at www.wayfindingtherapy.com DATES OF TRAININGFinal registration closes on February 24, 2023.DATES OF TRAINING & TOPICSMarch 10, 2023 9:00am – 4:00pm CTMarch 24, 2023 9:00am – 4:00pm CTApril 21, 2023 9:00am – 4:00pm CTMay 12, 2023 9:00am – 4:00pmCTWe are excited to offer two interconnected tracks for this training:Track 1:  The Teaching Experience.  Track 1 is for those participants who want to be further educated about trauma and traumas impact on an individual.  There will be four teaching sessions over four Fridays in the Spring of 2023 (see dates above). Each sessions will include interactive teaching and discussion as well as a live story facilitation.  If you are signing up for The Teaching Experience of the Telling a Tru(er) Story Spring Training you will have access to the live virtual training as well as, access to watch or re-watch the recorded teachings at your leisure.  Tier 1 is recommended for individuals who would like to gain further understanding about the nature of trauma, and how it affects us.   It is open to an unlimited number of registrants and no prior experience is needed. Track 2:  The Story Group Experience.  Track 2 includes everything in Track 1 but adds more in depth training through participation in six, 2-hour Story Groups.  Participants signing up for Track 2 will have the opportunity to practice what they are learning in the Track 1 teaching through written story work as well as practicing engaging another persons story of harm.  With this Story Group Experience participants will gain experience both as a reader of a personal narrative and as a Co-facilitator of a fellow group members personal narrative.  As a reader you will gain experience writing two personal narratives, reading your stories within a group setting and receiving feedback and care around your personal narrative.  As a co-facilitator you will gain experience engaging two group members personal narratives and receive coaching and feedback on your facilitation experience from your coach.  The coaching and feedback will be offered in real-time as the facilitation happens and through one follow up Private Coaching Session.  The Story Group Experience is recommended for those participants who have some prior story work experience and would like additional practice engaging stories of harm.  Track 2 is also appropriate for those participants with little to no experience but, have a strong desire to learn how to engage trauma in a group setting and/or want to become a Story Group Facilitator in their place of influence.  For this Spring Cohort we are taking only 30 participants for The Story Group Experience, 15 of these registration spots will be reserved for our BIPOC participants.For Track 2 Participants:You will have (6) 2 hour groups in addition to the Friday teaching schedule.  See schedule below to choose your preferred group times.  You will be with the same group for all 6 sessions and there are 6 participants per group maximum. Track 2 Groups Day and Time Options: (When you apply, you will be asked to pick your first three preferences.)Friday's 4pm- 6pm CST (March 10th, March 17th, March 24th , April 14th, April 21st &  May 12th)Fridays 6pm – 8pm CST (March 10th, March 24th , April 7th, April 21st, April 28th &  May 12th)Fridays 5pm – 7pm CST (March 10th, March 24th , March 31st, April 21st, April 28th &  May 12th)Saturday's 8am – 10am CST (March 11th, March 25, April 15, April 22nd, May 6th & May 13th)Saturday's 10am – Noon CST (March 11, March 25, April 15th, April 22nd, May 6th & May 13th) 

DanielleGood morning. Welcome to the ARise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, agenda and healing. My name is Danielle Castillejo, and I'm coming to you solo today. Uh, it's the year 2023 and I don't know how many of you have actually looked at the date and been like, what happened to the time? I know. As 2023 started and the last year since 2020 arrived, I, I had some trepidation and I still have that trepidation. So stepping into the new year and there are gonna be some guests coming up and some podcasts coming up. But living in the reality of post pandemic life meant that over Christmas break this year, uh, my kids out at Christmas break, there was a lot of sickness that went through our home. We still haven't tested positive for Covid. Um, we didn't test positive for flu, but we were diagnosed with a cough.And that cough actually took out my entire voice for over a week. So I'm just aware that I think during the pandemic, there was this sense, like in the thick of it, in 2020, in 2021, that we were in this state of the world where sickness was alive. It was active and literally physical sickness that would threaten our health. And then the racial disparities and the racial uprising that these were things that were able to come to light. And I think there was a sense of, and I remember talking about it with Maggie and talking about it with other friends, like, actually, we're not in post-trauma right now. This is an ongoing thing that's happening. So, I think one of the things I wondered stepping into 2023 was whether or not I would feel that we were post pandemic and it was interesting to become or get kind of a big illness at the end of 2022.I remember thinking, I wonder what Covid feels like and having some panic around, is my my throat sore because I never had that experience? Or is this cough? Can I breathe? Just the panic around that was still very present and I haven't experienced covid 19, I wasn't infected by it. Um, so I, I think that that was just an interesting response to me. And as 2023 started, I had this feeling that I was just going to move into the year slow. That's what I told myself. And there's no criticism or judgment. A lot of people make words for the year or gain some kind of resolution or goals or setting standards. And I do actually periodically evaluate where I'm at and what I'm doing and things I'm working toward, towards and moving towards.And I just have never been able to write a word down or set up New Year's resolutions. I always feel that if I do that, it will fall shorter. I will fail. So it's kind of a little internal battle with myself, but I, I do think I'm walking into 2023 with a sense of deliberateness and maybe a little bit of fear and a like very keenly aware that there are so many things about a new year that I don't know. I think in the past, like when I was in grad school, pre-grad school, there were just things that seemed for sure, it seemed for sure that the kids would go back to school. It seemed for sure that I would be able to show up to my classes. It seemed for sure that we would have work, and all of those things are in flux.Not that they're shutting down schools anymore, but will we be well enough to do this? Will we feel well enough? Will we feel safe? And I, I do wonder if we're in this transition phase from pandemic to post pandemic, and I still don't know if we're out of some of those mentalities last weekend and had the great honor and privilege of going to the Seattle School and listening to a dear friend, um, Phil Allen Jr. Talk about his book Open Wounds and the Prophetic Lens. He was a keynote speaker and there were so many people I haven't seen in a long time, or maybe I've just seen over Zoom. And so I found myself, you know, people walking up to me wanting to be social, starting a conversation, and we're engaging over just a certain topic. And as they're talking to me, someone else walks up and says Hi.(04:45):And I didn't know the social cues. I didn't know how to relate to the person that was, I was in deep conversation with. And that was in an instant. Hmm. And I didn't know how to switch gears and pay attention to the next person. I'm so outta practice. I mean, I've been getting together with friends and obviously talking with my family, but in a situation where there's many people that I would like to connect with or don't realize that I would like to connect with, I was just like, socially, I felt socially inept. I did not know what I was doing. I was jumping from conversation to conversation. I was a little bit mortified that I was allowing myself to be interrupted when I was having a good conversation with one person. And so I'm just aware that like, I don't know what to do in that situation. I don't have practice at it. I have to reengage somehow. Um, I'm outta practice. So there's just so many layers to coming out of a period of isolation. Maybe you weren't someone that went into isolation. Maybe you, you were able to have like a pod or people that you related with. ButI think there's something that still feels in the air to me that feels siloed, that maybe when I walk to the grocery store and I've seen it with other people, like people that know each other, that I know, know each other, and they don't say hi. I'm like, what is going on there? What is happening for us in our individual spaces and the places that we have maintained connection? How have we been able to do that? Is it by miracle? Is it through intentional effort? Um, I don't know. I, I don't know the answer. Been thinking a lot about how the younger parts of ourselves have been both likely activated by those periods of isolation. And how, what do we do with that now? I think, I mean, I think, I mean, just even in those conversations in that group, just feeling very young and very excited and very happy to be with everybody and literally not knowing what to do.And do I spiral into shame and feel like, well, I can't enter another social, so social situation again, no. I mean, I'm gonna do it. Um, but the temptation is to beat myself up a little bit, if I'm honest. So I mean, that is not the most serious of scenarios that have happened, but it is one scenario that has happened and I keep, I keep returning to it. Um, and this new year also brought about, uh, some changes in my family. Uh, we had, uh, a close family member, uh, like a second mother to my husband pass away, and she passed away this week suddenly.(07:51):And I say suddenly, but I, we all knew that she was sick. But there was some, I think, reluctance to engage, uh, the despair that would come if we acknowledged that, that she was close to death. I, I felt it in my own body. I felt it in conversations with my husband and my family. And then when she died, it was like, everything just paused and I felt paralyzed. And I looked at the calendar, actually 2023, and my husband looked at me. He's like, I don't know if 2023 is gonna be okay. Like, I don't know if this is gonna be a good year. And so again, I just returned to that, like living in the unknown. And as the grief has settled in around this dear woman, I have to admit, I haven't really wanted to engage it. I've pushed it away. I've laughed. I'd made jokes, I've gone out to eat, and maybe that is my way of grieving.I think it just didn't fit for me that there would be more grief in this year. I, I, I think I was a little bit like our family. Like we know there's some sickness in the air. We know there's still a lingering tension. We know things aren't well, and yet I didn't wanna touch it. I didn't want to. And I, you know, I've been, as you know, my family is split apart for the moment because, you know, part of family members are in Mexico grieving, and then I'm here, uh, holding down the fort. I just, I think about that. I think about the in between, between spaces. I think about the spaces between life and death and how often those are just these tenuous spaces that can go either way at any moment for a any reason.(09:53):And so, 2023 E even though we're saying, and like, I'm feeling like it's post pandemic, I just, it feels like something shifted in the air a few years ago. And there's going to be a, like a more living into this tension I haven't ever done or recorded my thoughts in a podcast on my own before. And I decided to do it because I really felt like it was important to kick the year off with some, for me, just being honest of where I am and recognizing those limitations and, and limiting that tension, I think forces me to, to acknowledge the limitations and find, like search for some way to bless them, search for some way to understand them.(10:48):Yeah, the tension between not knowing and knowing between the joy of being able to be together, not knowing how to do it. The tension of there is still going to be death in 2023, and there will still be life. And, and what do I do with those younger places in me that wanna cry? I wanna laugh, wanna, wanna ignore, wanna move on quickly or wanna, or just want to like run around at the park and swing on swings. I don't, I don't know what it is about stepping into a new year, but every year for a while, January has felt long. And I think I'm appreciating that. I'm appreciating it as a time for me to hibernate and also warm up, warm up to a year with my family, warm up to the gift of, of more space to live and to breathe and to be with those that are dying and to be with myself as things die in my own life or come to life too.(12:05):So, I don't know if you're li if you listen to this, like where you find yourself today, where, where you're at, if you're in that social awkward space of like, if you've moved past that, if you got it together, if you do find yourself like, hey, I got sick again. Maybe you got covid again. Maybe you got the flu. Maybe you got a cough like my family. Or, or maybe someone did die in your family and, and after everything that survived over the last three years, you're like, damn, why? Now? I think that's what I was thinking and why this good person, why now? Or why this job? Why now something that I've worked for? Or why is this system not working out the way I wanted it to? Or why do I have to return and fight for justice again in 2023? I thought we did that. I thought, I thought we moved something. Hmm. Excuse me. If you find yourself there, you're not alone. If you find yourself asking why or you find yourself repeating or you find yourself on a track and not able to embrace those younger parts of you or to that you find yourself in shame, you're not alone.(13:23):And so I, I wanna I wanna just normalize that. And, and then I wanna, I do wanna encourage you to, to, to find community, to be in community, to reach out to people, to say hi to the person that's making your coffee, to commit to socially awkward moments and laugh about them later. To send an email after you're in a socially awkward moment and say, Hey, I don't know what happened, but I let our conversation get interrupted. And I really do wanna finish a talk with you to allow yourself to cry when one more negative thing happens. Maybe it's a job layoff, maybe it's a death. Maybe it's someone's diagnosed with cancer. Maybe it's long-term covid to allow that one more chance to shed some tears. I don't think that we're out of the grieving process of the pandemic. I don't, I don't think that, I don't think that. And I think it will keep, keep showing up in different ways. Um, those are my thoughts for the beginning of 2023. And in the next week or so, you're going to hear about a town hall that's been organized across ethnic and, uh, diverse communities in my county and the town hall is toBring, bring awareness and advocacy and change into our school system. I, I don't know if we can change things, but we are going to try. And so that's, that's one of the next things you're gonna be hearing, you'll be hearing from more community members and I really look forward to being with you. We're also gonna have a couple podcasts on spiritual abuse and the intersection of that, and racial trauma and sexual trauma. Um, yeah, so I'm excited about this new year in the podcast season and, you know, if you've signed on to listen and you've been so gracious as to download this podcast, I just wanna say thank you. Um, I know Maggie and I have been blown away by the support and the feedback and the, the ways we've engaged our community through, um, making and forming and using a podcast. So, uh, happy New Year and I will catch you in a week or two.          Announcements

    Danielle (00:00:37):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, healing, and justice. And I wanna welcome you to this panel conversation. I'm about to have, uh, just stunning women doing wonderful work in this community and in the areas of justice in government. Listen in,Kali (00:01:07):All right. I am Kali Jensen. I am a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. Grew up in Washington. Um, I am obvious I'm a white American. I am German, native American, and French Canadian. And, and yeah, coming to you on the land of the Suquamish as we enter today.(00:01:33):My name is Jessica Guidry. I'm the Equity Program manager at the Kids at Public Health District. I also like Kaylee, um, joined this meeting from the land of the Suquamish. I actually live, um, and what was, which is still the, the Port Madison Reservation. So closer to Indianola. Um, and I, I guess ethnic ethnically I am, um, Asian, English, scotch Irish, and maybe some other British isles there. But, uh, um, I actually grew up in Bangkok, Thailand, and I've been in the US though for a long time. And I was born in the States(00:02:08):Next, um, Maria Fergus. I'm the community en Engagement specialist at, uh, Kita Public Health District. I've been in this role for, um, a little bit over a month. And one of the reasons why I applied for this job is because I, uh, I know that last year the Kita Public Health District declared racism at public health crisis. Um, and I wanted to be part of what they were doing. I, my pronouns are her, and she, I was born in Mexico, but I grew up in California. English is my second language, and I've been in Washington state for about seven years and working with our communities, um, our Spanish speaking communities as a volunteer for different organizations since the end of 2015.Well, good morning everyone. Um, I stepped away cause you know what I was doing, but, um, , uh, just bring, kinda bring me up to speed. We just doing our introductions.Just so you are, where you're located, um, what you're up to, and, um, yeah. And then we'll jump in.(00:03:34):Okay. Well, good morning everyone. Good afternoon now. Um, my name is Karen Vargas and, um, I am on Bainbridge Island, um, working with our kids across Kitsap County. I am, um, one of, uh, the co-founders, um, for Latch, uh, living Life Leadership and Kitsap Black Student Union. Um, we have been working over 30 plus years with our school districts, um, with our multicultural advisory council here on Bainbridge Island, working on equity issues, uh, really since I, um, moved here from the East Coast. So, um, what we're working on now with Kitsap Race Coalition is to, um, to have our, our county have a commission on Truth and Reconciliation that would, uh, actually deal with some of the issues that we see manifesting here in our county, um, with our bipo communities and with our students of color, uh, within the school districts and in the community.Um, and, and hoping that we, we would be able to, um, move our communities forward in a healthier way, to be able to address some of the, the issues that have been, um, you know, uh, showing up, whether it's in our churches or whether it's in our, our communities or on our jobs or, or in our school districts, even in our health districts. You know, how do we move forward when there has been, um, these type of, of issues that continue to manifest, you know? And I think that when we can move forward doing intervention and prevention, um, to address these issues, it would help us to reconcile them more in, in a healthy way. Um, and so, um, that's kind of the work that we've been working on. And so,Danielle (00:05:49):Thanks. Um, well, welcome everybody. I, I know we kind of all have connected and collaborated around, um, what is happening in Kitsap County. And perhaps if you're listening, you're not in Kitsap County, but you are in a county or a, a town or a section of a town, even a larger town. We, we all have these, like, there's like the 30,000 foot view of like the larger area where we're at. And we have these smaller cultural microcosms I think that happen in the areas where we actually physically root our bodies in housing and, um, business and life and school and our raise our children. And so we're coming to you from one location. Um, it's not, it's not gonna be the same as every location, but hopefully what we talk about can be something that we can, we can learn from you if you reach out and we hope you can learn just from us as we have a conversation.But Kaylee and I, like, we've been really close since the pandemic. She helped me survive the pandemic. She had her office next to mine and we would yell at each other down the hall or, um, check in, especially when all of our clients were online. And we had started these groups. One of the first groups we ever started, um, I think it was like the second or third group right after the murder of George, George Floyd, to engage white people that identify as white or in a white body, um, and what that means to their racial identity. And so Kaylee and I started these groups and we jumped in cuz I said, Hey Kaylee, do you wanna do this? And she's like, yeah, sure. And we jumped in, we're like, whoa, we don't know if we know what we're doing. And then pretty soon we're like, actually, I think we don't know what we're doing, but we do know what we're doing in some ways.So offering good care, listening, um, reflecting stories, being witness to stories, engaging, uh, the traumas that have been that turn into weapons against bodies of color. So those, some of the ways Kayleigh and I have talked about things and, you know, we both Kayleigh and I both have students in the local school system and have had kids that are, uh, part of marginalized communities or adjacent to marginalized communities. And it's, we've also noticed the mental health of our students and our families and, you know, become more and more passionate about it because obviously why it might not be obvious, but it's something we deal with in our everyday real life and, and we care deeply for, I think I can say that on behalf of both of us. But Kayleigh, you can speak for yourself obviously, but that's how I come to the conversation as a, a Mexican woman in the town of Poulsbo, Washington on Suquamish land, married to an immigrant, and, um, we speak Spanish and English at home. And so just, you know, just curious to hear, you know, how that intersects with your different areas of work and, and your passions here in Kitsap County.Kali (00:08:59):Well, I guess I can go first just cuz Danielle was just talking a lot about me, . Uh, but yes, uh, Danielle did invite me into starting groups and I went with her with fear and trembling. Um, had done some work on my own, around my own racism for a while. My graduate program, this at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology really, um, helped me to begin that work at a deeper level. And so then I did some work on my own, but had a real awareness when I started groups around racism that I definitely have racism still a part of my world as I grew up in a very white, uh, community and Spokane. And, um, as we began those groups, we did predominantly reach out to other white people or people in white passing bodies and, um, have found some like goodness in diving deeper into people's stories around racism.And that's kind of where we started, um, wondering with people around like, when did you notice your own racial identity? When, when did you become aware of racism? Um, kind of going all the way back to the beginning to help people make connections to like, what is still going on inside their bodies when they try to have these hard conversations with people in the community. Um, so I have learned a lot. I still have a lot to learn. Um, and along with what Danielle said, I also am a mental health therapist and work with a lot of teenagers in our community here in Kitsap County from different school districts. Plus like she said, I have some teenage children. All of my children are white, um, and, and have diverse friend groups. But I have become increasingly, well, I've always been concerned about the issues of racism in our community.I, I remember as a young little girl calling it out in my own parents, and that didn't always go well. Um, but then it was very under the surface as a white person, uh, you didn't see it as overtly as it has become now in 2020 since the election of Donald Trump, the, like, overt, blatant racism has, uh, been shocking. And yet it's always been there. So, um, but as I work with my own children and then work with students in my practice, I'm just, I am deeply concerned about the mental health of our kids. I think it's hard enough as an adult to go through these past few years, but I am concerned about our teens and what they are facing, um, of all races. I I think even my white daughter is very disturbed by the racial slurs that she constantly hear in the hallway and doesn't really know how to even go about addressing it or feel safe enough to even say anything. Um, so that's part of why I'm here today. And, um, had the privilege of going to a meeting, uh, last weekend with Kitsap Race. And so, yeah, I, I just, I hope for continued leadership amongst adults to like help our students and help our communities, even our adults in our communities, especially. I have a passion for the white people in our community. I help them be able to take steps forwards to be able to sit in these conversations and, and be productive and not as harmful. So that's how I enter this work.Speaker 5 (00:12:34):So I entered this work, um, because I grew up in California and it was very diverse. Um, and when I moved up here to Washington, uh, there just wasn't as much diversity, especially in the PAL area. And my daughter, um, who was a sophomore at the time, was invited to join the North Kids Up Equity Council. And so I started participating in that and started hearing stories, and I started working with the parents and children that are Spanish speaking. And, well, I kept hearing more stories and, uh, realized that I needed to be a little bit more proactive. And so I, I joined, um, stand up for racial justice search and I attended some other meetings, got some training, realized that I have a lot of internalized racism and racist behaviors myself and what ency ideology that, uh, I hadn't been aware of. Um, that was part of my thinking.And so, um, over time I continued to stay involved. At the beginning of this year, I heard about the student direct equity campaign under a base and became a adult, um, volunteer to support the, the students that were in the campaign and have been doing that since then. Um, also participated in the race forward, uh, healing together, meeting that we had this last, um, two weekends ago with, uh, with the race and try and stay as active as I can in the community to to hear, um, hear the stories. So I, I know what's going on and just stay updated and what's going on in my community.Jessica (00:14:41):Years, you know, the health district was, you were very, you were very light can Oh, okay. Is this better? Yeah, sorry about that. That, um, so how I got started in this work, so for 13 and a half years at the, you know, at the health district, I was their public health emergency preparedness and response program manager. And to be honest, I didn't really address equity head-on, um, in the emergency management field. Um, we, instead of using the term, you know, equity injustice, we used terms like access and functional needs, which to me doesn't really get to the core of the issue, but that was kind of the verbiage. But first it was vulnerable population then at risk and things like that. But it wasn't until, you know, the pandemic, um, that my role was able to switch a little. Um, I supervised initially our Covid vaccine equity liaison, and that was the first time at the health district that we had somebody with the word equity in their title.And she was specifically hired, her name was, but this was the first time we hired someone to specifically look at differences and, and how we can address those differences and outcomes and access. And, and so it was really exciting to have Holly on board. And as Holly was doing outreach with the community, um, and she built this Vaccine Equity collaborative, she started hearing from folks, you know, you know, this is great that the health district, you know, wants to address equity and vaccine, but what are you going to do about racism? And before the pandemic? Well, um, you know, we, we've talked about it and in public health circles, racism as a public health issue was kind of c was circulating, right? But I think it wasn't until the pandemic when we saw the differences in, um, who was getting hospitalized.You know, the covid who was getting sick because of covid and who, um, didn't get vaccinated because of access issues to stress of government and, you know, rightful distress of government, um, where all this came about. So when Holly heard this feedback and heard, you know, are, you know, is, is public health going to claim, um, racism as a public health crisis? You know, she came to me and some other folks and asked about this and we said, you know, yes, let's talk about this as an agency. And our leadership was very supportive and wanted to know more about declaring racism as a public health crisis. So, you know, at that point I was more of a cheerleader more than anything else. You know, I was involved in some groups kite race or you know, that, um, which Aku helped found, um, you know, equity, um, race and community engagement coalition kind of, you know, here and there.But when the Public Health Board declared racism a public health crisis, that was in response to community demand or a request, if you will. Um, and I could talk more about how that process came about, but as a result of that resolution, the health district actually allocated resources to equity. Before equity was more of, you know, if, if certain programs were, sorry, I use the word program. If certain teams within the health district were passionate about equity, they would incorporate it, but it was not, um, universal within the health district. And we didn't have like a, a, a shared terminology, things like that, or shared expectation even that we would address equity. Um, but with the, the, the resolution, it has several commitments in it. And one of them has to do with actually having staff. And this is really important because other resolutions across the country don't have commitments.They don't allocate resources. And just telling a government agency, oh yes, you'll handle equity without putting a budget line item means that it'll be kind of an afterthought, right? Or it's kind of like another layer among other layers. So this resolution said that, you know, you'll hire a community liaison and what our leadership ended up doing is say, no, this needs to be a separate program. We're going to hire a program manager first. So that was really important with that resolution. Another thing, another component of that resolution is that the health district will have, and I think the, um, certain training, and I believe the topics were, um, cultural competency, anti-racism and health literacy plus other topics. But those are the three topics, if I remember correctly, that were called out in the resolution. And the, and then one of the other commitments was that we would co-create solutions to systemic inequities with our community partners.And the reason why I said this is pretty huge for us is because, you know, often we look at health topics like health, excuse me, like healthy eating, active living, smoking cessation, or food safety, but actually dealing with poverty, racism, you know, I don't think we've, no, no, I might not be being, I might be unfair about this, but I don't think we've necessarily ha handled its head on, right? We've maybe gone to some housing meetings, but really more like in our limited public health capacity. So to me, this co-creation of solutions with community partners is huge. And I, and I do believe that often in government, we think we know best, right? And so we're like, oh, well, we're gonna do our research and we're gonna find best practices. But instead, you know, our community often has the answers to our, to our, to the issues that we have.It's just bringing them to the table, giving them equal voice and you know, honestly compensating them and treating them like consultants and, you know, a as equals, not just, oh, we're gonna, you know, get community input and then we're done, kind of thing. But that, that continued partnership. So anyway, um, so when this resolution passed, um, then my position was, was created. I applied for it and I was very lucky to get it. Um, and I, I started in this position full-time about last October or so, the resolution declaring racism of public health crisis start, um, it, that, that passed in May, 2021. So it's been about a almost a year and a half now. And to my knowledge, we're still the only governmental entity in Kitsap that's really addressed this and has staffing for it. Now, this might change because I, I, I'm not saying that the health district started anything, and I think really it's more the advocacy of folks like [inaudible] and, and Kitsap Race and all these other organizations that are pushing government.But I think we, we may start to see city governments actually investing in hiring and equity, uh, either race equity or all equity consultants or, or, um, staff member to really push that issue forward in their org organization. Um, so in this past year, um, there have been a couple things that I've been working on. So one is looking at our internal structure and our internal culture. Um, we don't talk about, you know, a year ago we didn't talk about equity as much. Um, so it was doing, you know, as, as designing employee training, meeting with all our different, prog all of our different teams. So talk about equity because, uh, oh, is Jessica, you know, the politically correct police, is she going to white shame me? So it's really the, the first year I had to really build those relationships. And luckily, because I've been at the health district so darn long, people knew, oh, you know, they, they were familiar with me.They, they knew that I wasn't just gonna shut them down. And then, and, and just being present, and as I talked with different teams, I realized, you know, they, they do have equity mindsets, but they just don't call it equity. But we have some teams who are really focused on poverty, but they might have actually had the conversation about how does racism affect poverty? How is that a driver for poverty? So, you know, anyway, so, so with this, so we have this internal bucket of work. So looking at training and, and right now our, our first training with the employees is gonna deal with identity and power. We're calling it positionality training. And the idea is that our, our training has to deal with the individual, the organization, the community, and the society. So that's, so we're building a training program based on that. We did do an internal equity assessment to figure out what we can do better.And, and I don't if I had to do about this Maria, but honestly, one of the biggest takeaways from that assessment was our staff doesn't know how we react to community input related to our priorities. So that needs to change, you know, either it's, it's a lack of awareness in our agency, or maybe we don't do it enough. So there, there's that piece. And then with, with community partnerships, you know, really trying to look at how we engage with community and how we see them as partners differently. Um, so the fact, like one thing I I also encourage, like me and Marina do, is just to be at community events without an agenda. It's not a grant deliverable. And actually, Aku really, um, helped bring this light for me. And I, and I should have realized this years ago, but you know, when, when Holly, the Vaccine Equity Collaborative, um, excuse me, the Vaccine Equity Liaison.So her position was eliminated due to, you know, that, that that phase of work was done. But I think what was missed was the community impact, because she built such amazing relationships in the thick of the pandemic where people were really looking for someone to trust in government. And I remember in Aku, I I, I think about this a lot, um, when we had our, her, um, goodbye party, I had one person, a community leader who was angry about it. Yes. And rightfully so. And, and you know, one of the things I've had to learn about in, in this position is not to be defensive and not to be like, well, our leadership didn't see enough work for a person. And just to be like, you know what? It is okay to be angry. I'm angry. I don't want her to leave. This was not my decision.I was not consulted about this. And, and, and that's, and, and, and I think what, what I'm, what I'm hoping to build and, and, and, and get some feed, you know, and, and, and, and build my own muscle and getting community feedback without having to be like, well, our agency policy exist. So at that meeting, not only was I not chewed out, I should say, but, um, I had someone speak very passionate to me, and he's said, Jessica, this is not about you. I'm like, no, I, I see that. And I said, you know, so acknowledging that hurt and letting my agency know also, hey, it hurts when your, when your main contact an organization leaves, you can't just replace that. So there's that piece. But then even a Kue telling me, you know, Jessica, you know, with, and, and I'm paraphrasing cuz a a kue says so much more eloquently than I do, you know, in government you have these grant deliverables and you go to community and you ask community to help and community will do the labor for you, you know, doing outreach, looking for places, for example, to do vaccine clinics and other stuff.But then when your grant deliverables are done and the grant funding's over, you leave. So that really stuck with me. And, um, one of the great things about how our equity program is funded is not funded by grants. And so one of the big things, you know, for us to build relationships is to go to meetings that are not just grant driven. Um, just to listen. So for example, Marie and I are gonna be going to the com, the, the community and police policing together, you know, the PACT meeting that, um, uh, pastor Richmond Johnson and, and, uh, partnering for Youth Achievement and others are having this, this, this, um, this week. I don't know if the health district has ever participated in that, but in order for us to know what's important to the community, we actually have to be there in meetings. So that's, and, and I'm so sorry to be taking up so much time, but this is trying some of the ways I'm trying to change how we do things at the health district.The funny thing is, and I get asked, well, Jessica, can you send this to so-and-so? And it's like, you know, yes, but do you know how much we invest in going to meetings and building those relationships? But we're, we're seeing re returns. But another thing that we're doing is we are launching what we call the Health Equity Collaborative. So I mentioned that during the pandemic we had the Vaccine Equity Collaborative. It was very limited though. Cause it was just looking at vaccine with the Health Equity Collaborative, there is no deadline for this because health inequities exist and they will continue to exist until we really address those hard issues. Right. So I'm really excited about the Self Equity collaborative because the collaborative will decide what topic we talk about. And that's that piece I was talking about, about co-creating solutions. Um, it's not the Health District saying, oh, we need to focus on someone that's public healthy.No, we're gonna, um, in, in January come together, you know, we'll look at data, we'll, we'll listen to stories, we'll listen to input from the collaborative members and then figure out we wanna address. And then, you know, I I, I've also committed to Maria in my time to actually address and, and support the work that the collaborative will eventually think of. Um, but what's different about that collaborative also is that we're paying people who participate and are not being paid there by their organizations. That is not something that we typically do in government. But, um, some of you may know that the Public Health Board expanded last year. No, actually it was earlier this year, excuse me, due to a state law that passed last year. And we now have non-elected members, which is huge because across the country you saw politics getting involved in public health.Now we have, um, now we actually have five, I think, new members. And it's amazing. So we now have a member, so we have a member on, on our board from each of our neighboring tribes. We only had to have one per law, but our board decided that they wanted to have a spot for the Suquamish tribe and the Port Gamble ALM tribe. I just found out today that our Port Gamble ALM tribe position is filled. And the person's gonna be Jolene Sullivan, who's a health services director with the Port Gamble Skm tribe from the Squamish tribe. And, and, and she's sorry. And Jolene is a tribal member of the Port Gamble Skm tribe, with the Squamish tribe. We're gonna have the health services director there. His name is, um, Steven Kutz, and he's a member of the Cowlitz Tribe. So he is originally from, you know, southwest Washington.And then we have, um, Drayton Jackson and who's really ex and that's really exciting. He's on our board. We also have Dr, um, Michael Watson. He's with, uh, Virginia Mason, Franciscan Health. And then we have, um, Dr. Um, Taras, oh my gosh. Kirk sells who's, I believe, a public health research researcher. So we have this expanded board, and our board members who are not elected are also being compensated. So we followed off that model because, you know, sometimes it's kind of a wait and see. But that was precedent setting for us. And I think because we are compensating our board members, were non-elected, we have this, I was able to, to, to propose to our leadership, Hey, if we're gonna be doing this health equity collaborative, we need to pay our, you know, our, our folks who are not being paid by their organizations. There's national precedent for this.You're seeing that more national, you know, nationally with governments paying their consultants, right? We pay our d e i consultants, we pay strategic planning consultants. You know, Akua is a huge, um, community consultant and we need to start paying folks like that. But like her, like, you know, um, all the other folks are giving us input. So anyways, so we have this collaborative, we had our first meeting earlier this month, and we're having our, our visioning meeting in January. And Aya, I remember, you know, earlier this year you talked about how as a community we need to have this visioning process. And one piece of feedback I got from the collaborative meeting that we had earlier this month was, well, Jessica, we need to also include Citi and county officials. Cuz the only government officials at that meeting we're public health folks. So in the future, you know, also bringing other governmental folks.So there, there's a, there's a lot going on. Um, and, and I think another thing, and, and I promise I'll, I'll stop is, um, is elevating the concerns of our community within the health district. So, for example, and I really wanna give Maria credit for this because of her passion on working with youth. I, I, you know, I, I, I don't mentor youth. I have my two kiddos, and that's kind of the, the, the extent of, of, of my impact on youth. But, um, you know, it was through conversations with her, you know, meeting you Danielle, and, and hearing about other community meetings, you know, concerned about mental health, especially of our Bipo youth. Um, you know, elevating that to our leadership, letting our leadership know, hey, this is an a concern. And what's exciting is, um, when I mentioned this to our community health director, Yolanda Fox, she's like, well, you know, this other department, you know, our chronic disease prevention team, they may have funds to help with these kind of initiatives.So it's also networking within my own agency and Maria and my agency to see who can help with these, with these issues and figuring out, okay, well how can this also fit? Because the health district is also doing strategic planning, um, starting early next year. We're also participating in Kitsap community resources, um, community needs assessment. Ray and I both have been note takers and, um, contributors to their focus groups, for example. But then also I've been doing some keen form of interviews for Virginia Mason, Franciscan Health, um, community assessment. So we're hearing from community leaders, but then also going to community meetings about their needs. And we're trying to elevate that as well to our, to our leadership. And that's, so there's a lot going on from the health district, I think. Kuya, you're up.Akuyea (00:30:32):Yes. Oh my God. Go Jessica, go run, girl, run you and Maria, this is how we elevate, this is how we transform. This is how we begin to shift the paradigm for the opportunity to be heard. Oh, cross, we are gonna level the playing field for leveling. When I say level, I mean our young people, our parents, our community, our school districts, our, you know, health districts, our government. How do we do this collective work? Especially when you're dealing with historical institutionalized racism that we know is a crisis across the line. I don't care. It's a, not just in the health district, it's in our community, it's in our school, it's in our families, it's in our history. It's in the d n a of this country. So how do we begin to address that and move that where we can begin to reconcile, we know the history is there for us to sit here and, and, and act as if that this has not been a problem in an issue in our nation for hundreds.And it is not just that, it's in our nation, it our, our institutions. Were built on it. We, we, we have these systemic pieces that we have to deal with. That's why it was important when we started Kitsap e rates that we said, we gotta look at our schools, we gotta look at our health districts. We gotta look at our city government. We gotta look at our faith-based organizations, which Danielle, you know, that it exists within all of these institutions. We gotta look at our businesses that say, and I said, you know, when you come in and, and you try to do this type of work, and especially these organizations have in their mission statement that we're undoing racism, or we got, we're gonna be looking at equity, inclusion, diversity, multicultural. And they say that this is all within their mission and they check the box, but there's no accountability.There is no moving these, these issues to a place. If it's not in there, where is their, uh, district improvement plan? If it's not written in there, where is there, where is it in their budget? It's not in there. It, it doesn't exist. It's just they check the box to say they're doing this, but they're not the, the, the, the organization is not being held accountable for what they say is in their goals. Cuz they wrote 'em in their goals. They, they, they, they've got it language in their goals, but then how do you begin to hold them accountable to say they are? And so I was so, I was like, yes, Jessica, because if it's not in the budget, if they're not intentional, if they're not moving equity and inclusion and diversity forward in these institutionalized policy practice and procedures, then it, it really, you know, it doesn't exist.You know, it is that thing that's out there in la la land. So when you file, how do we begin to, to look at that, the training? Where is the training? Because you gotta shift the mindset. You've gotta begin to transform how people are going to step into this work of equity and inclusion. And you gotta give them tools. You gotta be able to say, look, you need training. What is cultural competency training? What is the gear training? What are these trainings that are available? Where is the training from the People's Institute? Where is the training for? Because actually, if you look in our history, we've got a lot of history that have the Freedom schools and all of them, they were doing this work back in the day, but there was a shift back in the day where they stopped when they started killing off the leaders and started, you know, manipulating city governments and working in legislation and all of these things.You know, we, there was a halt during that period, period when they were doing all the civil rights and trying, you'd think of it, all those leaders that they, they really assassinated that was moving race equity and, and inclusion forward. You know, our presidents, our our black leaders, all of those leaders that they were taking out, you know, look at that history, look at what was being done in legislature, what was being done, set in place. So we have to look at the systems that continue to hold these inequities in place so that we can't move forward. And then there was a point in time, you know, during, um, this last couple of years that just really highlighted all the inequities, all the disparities, all of the, the racist, you know, uh, uh, practices and policies that was in place that really hindered us. And we said we needed to look at these things.Um, you know, with the killing of George Floyd and the murders that was going on with the pandemic, the pandemic really set it off because we could see if it was actual, we could see how disconnected and how, how all of these disparities were, were being, you know, manifest showing. They would just, they were just in your face. How you gonna not address stuff that's in your face and then all of the racial, you know, um, one of the things that we started when I think it was even before Pandemic, before George Floyd was all of the, um, things that was being manifested during the, the, uh, during the presidency of, of our wonderful President , we won't say his name, we won't say his name, you know, and that's the thing. We won't say his name, but we know who, who, who that was, that perpetuated a lot of racial tension in our nation and begin to cultivate it, to begin to really nurture all of that unhealthy, you know, behavior and mindset.And, and, and when, when we look at the history and we understand that racism has always been a crisis in our nation. And if we just looked at it and looked at the concerns of racial diverse communities and understand that it, it hasn't, it, it has never been a healthy, uh, history, but when we tuck it away and sweep it under the ground as if it doesn't exist, we do ourself a harm. And then when we look at how education plays a role, when we look at how health plays a role, you know, health and education are interdisciplinaries, and if we not looking at how all of these systems are connected that continue to perpetuate all of these internalized structures that perpetuate these disparities, then I think we're not doing, uh, a good job at being able to undo the institutionalized pieces of, of racism and how we we begin to, to break down those barriers and begin to level the playing field and begin to get services, you know, and begin to get opportunities and the financing.You know, um, racism has played a key in poverty. It's play a key role in health disparities. It's played a key role in education. If you guys think about it, you know, back in the day when they were building all these institutions, you know, um, we weren't a la even allowed to read or write in the sixties when they wanted, you know, when they were talking all about let's integrate these schools and everything, oh, you know, look at the racial tension there was just from us to be able to go to school with one another. And that's not been that long. That's been in our lifetime, it hasn't been hundreds of years ago. Oh, little Rock nine and all of that unrest and all that has not civil rights and all that. That's, that's not been long at all. We've not come that far. And there was a halt to all of that work on undoing all of those institution life pieces. And, and when, and I can say it, when, when those assassinations begin to happen, there was a shift where everybody was pulling back from trying to do that work, but yet it didn't go away. It still needs to be done. So as we move forward, we talk about how do we, how do we begin to look at models and, and the work, the foundation of that work that was laid prior to us, even now, if you go back in, in the sixties, you'll see boy, they had it going on.Those models, those sit-ins and all those things that they were doing to change policy, to change institutional practices. You know, there's no need for us to reinvent the wheel. We've just gotta begin to, to pick up the work and, and start doing the work again. There was a definite fear that came, uh, into our communities and our nations when they begin to kill our leaders for standing for what was right. The murders of Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King, and all of them, you know, you look back at that time, the, those ones that, even the Black Panthers, they exterminated those young people and they, and, and they put 'em in jail.There was two options. You, they were either exterminated or they were incarcerated, but they were definitely gonna dismantle those disruptors that was calling for equity. So, yeah. And, and when you have all kinds of hate mail and hate literature that's being flooded across our nation. Um, and I could tell you, um, back in 2018 when, when we started the Race equity Network, it was because there was hate literature being flooded across Kitsap County. Our churches was being people who are being attacked, racially slurred, and all kinds of things happening in the community. That community members went to our city council and said, what y'all gonna do about this stuff? Y'all see it's all coming up. You mean the government? Y'all gonna do nothing. Not gonna say nothing. What's up? So they decided they were going to, to at least have a race equity advisory council to the city council members that would deal with all these disparities and all these racial incidents that was popping off.But then, you know, they get in there and they wanna be political and tie their hands and say what they can and can't do, and don't even wanna take the training. I mean, by now, that was 2018, here we are going into 2023, our pobo still ain't got one South kit still ain't got one. We still don't got our commission on troop and reconciling. We, it's, it's still being pushed back. The pushback on moving equity, race equity forward, it's still, that's live and well. And for us to understand what we really are up against, you have to transform minds. And one of the things with, you know, with the education system banning books and all of these things, I said, what is that all about? You better know what that's all about. You have to have a greater understanding. Because my, my thinking is, if we don't even wanna be truthful about our history and teach true history and teach our young people in the schools, I said, that's dangerous ground. We're walk, walking on.But that's something that needs to be looked at very carefully because it starts in the educational system. If you're not even gonna teach to it, if you are not even going to give our young people true information, you know, when you're talking about, oh, these books can't be read, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. A red flag should be going up for all of us in our communities and all of us in the nation. What is that? Yeah, you better find out what's the, at the root of all of that. So we do have a lot of work to do. Did this, this, I mean, the work is plenties, the laborers are few.And then how do we that are doing the work, how do we come together and work in a collective collaborative way that can help us move these things forward in, in, uh, a healthy way? Many hands make light work. Many of us, you know, yes. My my area of of concentration might be education. Mine might be health, mine might be city government. Mine might be the, the faith community. Mine might be just community members. But what happens when we begin to cultivate unified work to address these issues across those barriers? Because we all have the same goal, but look at how we work in silos. What can we do to break down barriers and really build community between the community of those that are doing the work?You know, do we lay aside our own agendas? Just like Jessica was saying, we just wanna go to li How do we come alongside and support? How do we come alongside and just listen? How do we come in and hear what the community needs are and all of those things. But sometime we gotta set our own egos aside for the greater work because the work is bigger than we are. You know, it took back in the day, when I think about all of those civil rights leaders and, and it, and, and believe you me, the environment was more hostile to make that change back then. You know, you, you had people gunning, people holding people. Come on now the history's there, but yet we wanna erase some of that history and to say, no, this is the only part we wanna teach of that, that history. You know, we talk about our, our native, uh, and our indigenous communities that was here. And understand, and I'll keep saying it, as long as I have breath in my body, I come from a stolen people brought to a stolen land where they exterminated the indigenous tribes that was here to be able to capitalize on their land and everything else. And that history, you know, it's like, oh, we don't wanna talk about that.But when you don't address the atrocities that have happened, it will keep coming up because you never went back and never healed that land. You never healed all of that, uh, trauma and all those things. You know, one of the things that I always look at, I do look at, I do look at what happened over in Germany. That entire nation had to deal with the atrocities that Hitler committed. And it wasn't until they had to deal with their own atrocities that healing began to, to, to move those communities forward in a way where they could, you'll never be able to erase what happened. But they have to be able to heal those family, heal, move towards healing, move towards reconciling those things. But when you just step over all the atrocities you've committed and, and, and say, oh, oh, they ain't this and that ain't that. That is a shipwreck. That's a a, that's a recipe for destruction.And so how do we begin to do the work of healing? Because the health district, and I say this to Jessica and to the health district, y'all are supposed to be in the healing business. I mean, that's what you say. And then I say to the education people, y'all supposed to be in education. What are y'all doing? Health, health and education for some and not for all. And justice. Justice for who? Justice for some are justice for whom. See, we got to get, we, we have to understand that we have to begin to shift the mindsets of those that can't see these things.You know, we have to begin to say, how do we take the scales off of people's eyes so they can see clearly that these are things that we, we definitely have to, to work towards? How do we unstop the ears so that they can hear the voices and hear, um, the things that need to be heard? Because some people, you know, some, and I can say this cause one of my young people said to me, she said, you know, what do you do with people that just wanna fight? They don't, they, they're not trying to heal. They're not trying to, they just wanna fight.I said, so how do you become peacemakers in the fight? How do you, how do we step into that role that we can at least be able to, to speak words that can, um, prick hearts and minds and transform, uh, the communities that we're serving? Because we're all serving, we're all serving our communities in a way, you know? And I, you know, it, it, it's hard when you always gotta walk through dodoo. I don't know. You know, I'm just throwing it out there like that. You know, when you gotta crawl through feces every day, that's, you know, those that are in plumbing and stuff like that. I don't know how they do it, but is it needed? Definitely.So we, we do, we, we, we can look at that. We can do some collective visioning that can help our communities to move forward in a way that can really meet the needs. You know, because I, I always have said our county isn't so large that we can address this issue and that we can do this work and we can do this work. Well, we're not a King County, we're not a Pierce County. We're a Kitsap County. And collectively, we should be able to move things forward in a healthier way. That guess what could be a model, not just for our state, but for the nation. Uh, you know, a little Kitsap County has changed the way that they address inequities. The way that they, with racism, the way that they deal with disparities, the way that they deal with all of these unhealthy things that continue to hinder us all. I don't care what color you are. Hate comes in all colors. Mm-hmm. , white, black, yellow, green, whatever way. But if we can deal with some of those issues, the bitterness and those roots of bitterness, why are our communities so bitter? What's going on that we can't come together and talk about it? If you are mad, I'm, I'm cool with you being mad, but can we talk about it? Can, can we reason together in the multitude of council, there can be some safety. If we come in, in a collective way and deal with it, there can be some safety in that.Danielle (00:54:27):The, uh, I was just, and I see your hand, Jessica, I, I was like thinking so much. And Maria, I know you were there with me of our meeting last week with these families that, you know, they came out almost 50 families, you know, 50 people show up to a meeting Thanksgiving week.Maria (00:54:47):And, and I thought, there's so much hope. And just showing up and, and in the showing up, you know, the meeting was advertised. I saw some for like six 15, some for six 30. I got there at six because my phone rang and someone said, Hey, where are you? I said, well, I'm not there yet. They said, well, hurry up. We're here,Oh, it's like six o'clock. So I pulled up, you know, and I got there and the principal was opening the door. And I had emailed early in the day and I said, well, you know, I don't know who's gonna show up because this thing went out over Instagram. It went out, you know, word of mouth.Danielle (00:55:29):And when people got there, y you know, they, the setup was to share stories and then to work towards solutions. But you could see when the invitation was to work towards solutions, people just stayed quiet. Cuz they were like, no, we have more stories to share. And, and let me tell you, we we had to cut it off at like eight 15. Eight. Yeah. Because people were not done and not everybody got a chance to share there. But I think about those families ended, and Maria, you can speak to this too, like, they were like, when is the next meeting? And we had, you know, one of the main leaders from the Latina community was, was speaking and saying like, Hey, like we have problem, you know, we've had problems with the African American community and we, where are they? Like, we know they're suffering.Like, she didn't say it like that, but basically like, we are not the only people of color here that are experiencing this. So, um, that gave me a lot of hope. The ability to show up and the stories they shared, I think are compounded, like what you say, the history, when you name the history, I'm like, oh crap, we're repeating all of this right now in live time. Like, it's happened yesterday. It happened, probably happened today, probably happened tomorrow. Like, we actually haven't, like slowed it down. It doesn't feel like, but Maria, Jessica, like, feel free to jump in. That's kind of where I was at.Jessica (00:56:59):So Danielle, I guess I wanted to jump in. I guess a couple things, especially, you know, after hearing, you know, Aku talk, you know, one of the things I think government should be doing is, you know, addressing, you know, inequities head on. And, um, some of you might follow, uh, the health district on, on social media. But, um, two weeks ago, um, the health district did a Facebook post recognizing transgender Awareness week. Now, this is the first time the health district has ever done a post like that. And you wouldn't believe, well, actually you would believe the amount of hate that we got. But I have to tell you though, before we declared racism a public health crisis and really got deep into this work, I don't know if we would've ever done a post like that. Um, but you know, it was a conversation between the equity program and our communications program.Our, our communications folks were all on board. They even bumped this, this idea for this post up to our administrator who was supportive of it. He goes, Hey, just make sure that you include our mission statement that, you know, our job is to promote the health of all people in Kitsap County. And, and I was really proud of the agency because I, you know, as government, sometimes we have to be careful about how we speak and sometimes it's hard to be the first. But to be honest, I didn't see any other governmental entity. And you all can check, please check me on this. But I didn't see any other governmental entity make that comment, you know, make that statement that we support our lgbtq plus and our transgender neighbors, loved ones, community members. Um, and so this was a small thing, but this is where, you know, um, you know, there, there are these huge changes that we need to make as a culture, right?And, and, and government structures. But even if it's just the acknowledgement of the suffering of people and the fact that we are, we see them, we honor them, and we're there with them is huge. Um, and, and, you know, and I give kudos to, to, to to you Danielle and, and Aku. Cause I know y'all have been having these community conversations. So having, giving people a space to share their truth and their experiences is huge. And when you can bring government officials there to hear it, because often, and, and I, and I'm speaking broadly, I mean, I I I've been in government for almost 15 years, so I, not an expert, but I've been in it long enough. You know, we tend to like the quantitative data, right? The numbers. And I think as an public health in general, there's been this big movement about, and I'm gonna use my my nerd term, but disaggregating data.So looking at the numbers, but saying, oh, well, let's see, can we break this down? What is our Asian community experiencing? Or Pacific Islander? And that gives some depth to it. But then also realizing that there are sub-communities within this community. And, you know, um, Maria and I were talking about, um, VN Voices of the Pacific Island network. They had an event earlier this year, and they had some data that showed that not all Pacific Islanders have the same educational experiences and this educational outcomes. So on, on the one hand, you know, government, we love numbers. Well, we need to dig deeper into those numbers, right? Break things down and really figure out what our community's experiencing. And sometimes in public health, we're like, oh, if the community's too small, then the analysis might not be enough. Who cares? Just still bring that data up.And that's where you compliment it with the stories, right? The qualitative data. And this is something where I think when you think of governments as white supremacists, right? You know, there's this need for productivity. And you have to, for every media you go to, you have to show what specific outcomes you have. Well, that's also something I'm hoping to change slowly at the, at the agency too. But, um, but also with data and, and the, the importance of storytelling and catching these stories and elevating them. And one of the things that, um, and you know, Kang Marie can talk about this. When we had our first health equity collaborative meeting, I got a question by a community member who was skeptical, right? Because their experience was when they've worked with government, they have gotten roadblock after roadblock after roadblock. And having to be honest and be like, look, here's what I can do as a manager of a program of two people.But at that meeting, we had a, the health officer there, and he is one of our highest officials at the health district. He's like our Spock, um, if you're a Star Trek nerd, but, um, which Memorial Star Wars. But, um, you know, our chief science officer was there. My supervisor who was a director was there. So, I mean, one thing I'm also hoping with, with these collaborative meetings, if, if they're meeting community meetings, also just throw that out there where you think having the health district be present is important and you want somebody with a director or administrator in their title. That's also something that, um, you know, I can also, I can also help facilitate. But something also, Danielle or maybe actually, um, Kayleigh, to your point, you know, we talk about this work, but how do we support each other? So we support each other in terms of, um, you know, bring cross-disciplinary, but then also really elevating the fact that we need that self-care and that connection and the fact that this is such heavy work.Um, you know, Maria and I have mentioned, we, we, we've helped with some of these, uh, focus groups for the kids at community resources. The stories are, are just heartbreaking. Um, and whether it's our youth and how they experience bullying, our elders who are experiencing lack of care, you know, lack of resources, and they just need some additional help. And you don't have that necessarily multi-generational household like you did before. So they don't have the supports that they had in the past. There's so much going on. But I think also all of us doing this kind of work, taking care of each other as well, and then also letting people know it's, it's okay to not be okay. Um, so anyway, I just, I just wanted to throw that out there too.Maria (01:02:33):So I've been pondering Akuyea, uh, question towards the end and she said, how do we do this work? How do we, um, collaborate and, um, bring about solutions? And something that, uh, Jessica mentioned fairly early on when she spoke, she said, the importance of letting go of ego, right? Leaving our ego at the door and, uh, working collaborative with one each other o one another as we do this work. And then the second thing is listening. And that's the one thing I've really learned as, um, uh, community engagement specialists, uh, working with Jessica, is that when I bring concerns to her or other community members, bring concerns to her, she listens, and then she acts, she does, whether it's something that, it's a long-term thing that will take a while to address or something that we can address quickly. Uh, she keeps this wonderful worksheets and she keeps track of where she's at on different projects. And so I think being able to be transparent, because since she shares that information, she shared some of that information at the health equity, um, collaborative meeting that we had. Um, I think that's how we build trust with our community members, that when they come, uh, to our organization, that we will not just listen, but we will act now. It might not be immediate, but we will be taken action. Um, and so, um, that's something that I've learned just in my one month at the public health district with Jessica.Jump in. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you for that. One of the things that, you know, I was talking with one of my, um, equity sisters, Carrie Augusta, and as we were reading through the newspaper and stuff, you know, she said, you know, we need to be looking at patterns of oppression. Are we doing that in a collective way? Just looking at the patterns, those patterns keep manifesting. It doesn't matter if it's manifesting with the African American community, the Hispanic community, the Pacific Islander community, whatever community is, are we looking, are we looking at those patterns of oppression? That's key for us to move forward as we do the work. Because in order for us to address, uh, and undo some of these things, we gotta identify 'em. We've gotta take time to sit down and identify these patterns that keep, you know, go. You know, that just like when we were, were dealing with, you know, with, uh, the racism on Bainbridge Island, you know, uh, it manifests itself back in the nineties and then again in the two early 2000. But I said, look at the, they go on ground for a little while and then they come back out.But look at the patterns of how they begin to, to do that work, uh, of, of, um, you know, racism. Look at the pattern of it. Look at how it shows up. Look at how it, it manifests itself in our institutions, in our workplaces, you know, in those areas that we are in on a daily basis. Don't matter in the schools. Look, they've been dealing with racism in the schools forever. Ever since Little Rock nine, they've been dealing with racism in the schools. And that was because why? Because racism was alive and well, and LA racism is still alive and well. So how do we begin to move these things and begin to address these things in a way that's gonna shift the policy and procedures? It should not be allowed in the institutional, shouldn't be allowed in the schools, shouldn't be allowed in our city governments, if you're serving all of us, if you are serving every one of those students, why are we dealing with what's happening at North Kitsap School District? And, and there's some questions I think that we need to be asking to administration and to those superintendents and to those staff members, because they're the ones that hold those practices in place, whether they're just or unjust. Who are the gatekeepers?Yeah. You gotta see who's gatekeeping and who's gatekeeping what, and, and really doing the, that type of visioning to be able to address these disparities or, or address the racism or address all of these inequities. Because if you got a principal that's gate keeping it, why do you think it keeps coming up?Danielle (01:08:20):Because it's us who hold these things in, in place. Human beings hold these practices in place. None of us get away. All of us are accountable. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's not just, that's when that one, that one, no, it's us. It's all of us who hold these practices and these policies in place. It's whether you will or whether you won't.So tho those are the things I think when we can get down to those foundational principles on how to address, and really, are we asking the right questions? Because they'll have us running off on a, a wild goose chase on something that, that , I'm just saying that don't even that, that is totally gonna miss the mark. You know, because if we, if we just keep pruning this thing, pruning it, pruning it, and never getting down to the root of it, we ain't plucking up nothing. We, we, we, all we doing is making it flourish and thrive. Because why do we prune? We prune things so it can come back healthier and stronger. I'm just, I'm just using these parables so we can see what we doing. Are we just pruning this thing? Are we getting to the root of it so we can pluck it up? Because if we're not, I think we're missing, we need to go back and revision and revisit and re-question and ask those. What's the, because you all know what's the root causeWhat's the root cause to the disparities that's happening, Jessica, in your departments or at the health district? What's the root cause when you are up in these schools and these things keep on, um, coming up and manifesting? What's the root causeDanielle (01:10:43):Go back. Do, do that questioning, just ponder. Just look at it. But let's, let's get our chart out. Let's see what's happening, and then, then we can have a real good conversation about next steps and how we can move forward and what we gonna do.Danielle (01:11:07):Kaylee, I saw your hand raised. Um, and, and I just wanted to say, like briefly after that meeting, I had a post up on Instagram, uh, highlighting the article, and I had over 400 likes, but 300 of them were from local students. And I had over a hundred private messages to me, and I screenshot them. And, and it wasn't just Latino students, it was black students, it was white students, it was, you know, L G B T Q community. Like they're ba I, what I understood from that is like, come on, get to work. Like, and I've, I've sent the screenshots, you know, to Maria and a few to Kali and some toku, you know, um, because they're important. The messages they give were important. Um, but yeah. Kaylee, jump in.Kalie (01:12:00):Yeah, I just, I mean, I love the questions that are being asked and Aku, some of your metaphors are like so amazingly helpful. Um, the pruning, uh, like I, yes, like I, I think that that is part of it is not getting to the root. And I think one of the things that Danielle and I have been trying to work on in our groups is also what you mentioned Maria, is like, we have to be able to listen to each other. And I think like from a mental health standpoint and the impact of racism, like there is so much shame, so people cannot listen. I mean, especially speaking from a white person, my own racism, having to work through that and, and then when I, like me as a white person in these conversations, right? So many people cannot hear like, we're never getting down to that.And like that is part of what I think we're trying to address in those small group settings is like, how to teach people to dig down deep and actually, like, what is happening in your body in these conversations. And I think, like, I feel like this like top like both and like the accountability you're talking about a kue, like, has to be, because some people will never, ever be able to get to what is deep down and actually deal with it. And if there isn't accountability, I don't, we're not, we're not gonna cut any of that rot out . But I think like, yeah, like trying to continue to figure out how to get down to that root and deal with people's shame and the fear that like racism has taught you so that you can actually listen so that we can actually collaborate. Um, and I mean, I obviously am speaking to my white, uh, community members that it's like, that is our work as white people that we have to work down to, like what prevents us from listening and hearing and changing and holding other white people accountable. Um, so that's where that was taking me.Jessica (01:14:07):So Kue, you asked about, you know, the root cause of inequities. And I don't necessarily have the answer, but I wanna to share. Um, I, I've seen a growing conversation, um, kinda in public health circles about power as a social determinant of health. So when public health people use the term social determinants of health, they're looking at what social factors affect health. Um, there are different models out there, but most public health experts agree that more affects health besides what you eat and how much you exercise. It's the social and cultural factors. It's, it's, it's, um, the economy, it's your built environment like, you know, access to sidewalks, parks and things like that, racism, discrimination, so many things impact health. And what i, I appreciate about power as a factor in health is because that's where you see governments needing to stop holding onto power so much, right?And so there are some, um, agencies that are starting to dismantle that a bit. So I, I wanna elevate, for example, um, our, our colleagues in, so our public health colleagues in Tacoma Pierce County. So they have a budgeting process where they allow the community to help them set budget priorities. We're not there yet as a health district, I hope someday to actually advocate for that as well. But it's looking at how do we share power with our community and how do we also foster community building as well? So like, in, and, and you know, you'll probably know the Square than I do, but just as, as, as an observer, I've noticed like an increase in the number of nonprofits and people wanting to do really amazing work. Um, you know, um, helping other people. But there's that lack of capacity. Oh, you know, people might start nonprofit, but they might not have all the training that they need.Um, so as, as a community looking at power and how do we shift that and doing a power analysis, and I, I think you've talked to me about this, you know, really looking at who holds power in Kitsap County and how do we work together to, to to share that power. Um, so, so there, there, there's that piece. But then also, um, you know, Kuya talked about training, right? And so for me, a lo

WE BUILD POWERFUL HUMANS www.elevatestrengthco.com@bethaneerandles@elevatestrengthcoMeet the Team HERE. (https://www.elevatestrengthco.com/our-team ) Welcome to Elevate Strength and Conditioning, Home of Bainbridge Island's Most Inclusive Fitness CommunityHOME OF BAINBRIDGE ISLAND'S MOST INCLUSIVE FITNESS COMMUNITYACCOUNTABILITY: Every member is important to our coaching staff. Each person will have a full accountability partner in every staff member, paired with a community that will support you every step of the way.Elevate is not just a gym where you pay a membership, Elevate is a family. Your goals are our priority. COMMITMENTWE CARE ABOUT YOUR GOALS.We are committed to helping you become your strongest, most confident self.Every session spent working with our highly skilled staff will help you, “become the machine,” and prepare you to move through life with ease and confidence in your movement. Our mission is to help you actualize yours, one step and one drop of sweat at a time, at a pace that works for you.GRITWe are going to do hard things. We are going to struggle. We are going to fail. We are going to succeed. We will do all of these things together. Strength is the key piece of everyone's individual independence in movement, and together, we will overcome obstacles to become stronger, more capable humans.INTEGRITYWe are honest in our assessments and programming to meet each person where they are so we can take them where they want to be. We believe in our method and our programming and its ability to help every single member progress responsibly and with quality movement. Transcripts:Danielle (00:38):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and healing. Uh, so proud to welcome my dear friend, uh, Bethany Randall's, owner of Elevate Strength and Conditioning on Banbridge Island, Washington. And this girl, this friend of mine, really knows and cares for human beings. And so here we go. Um, that I'm recording. Okay. Got it. Well, hey, Bethany, uh, welcome to recording a podcast with me. I've been wanting to do this for a long time, so it feels really special and important, and in fact, I just saw you today, so that was fun. Yeah. I brought my whole, well, three of my kids with me, so that was kind of a surprise for you and also for me, . Yeah, no, Bethany, I wanted to just, people may be like, well, how did Danielle and Bethany know each other? And I would say, it's been like a decade, right? Bethanee (01:39):Yeah. Yeah. It's been, let's see, yeah, it's been at least nine years since I've met you, right? Nine years. Yeah. And for anybody watching this, just just know that my two, uh, French bulldogs are in the room, so if you hear any funny noises, it's just them. And, sorry, . Um, Danielle (02:00):That's great. Um, yeah. So I met you at the Y M C A and I came to one, I think I came to your ripped class first and then started working out, and that was when it was like in a smaller room, but eventually it grew to like the gymnasium to where you had people lined up. Bethanee (02:19):Yeah. Yeah. So when I met you, sorry, the dog's cracking me up. Um, when I met you, I was working at the Y and I might have still been a volunteer at the Y I'm not sure if I was an actual employee there, but, um, I started teaching some group fitness classes there, uh, kickboxing, cycling ripped, which was a, like a high intensity interval class. Um, and when I started, I was being trained by two other instructors, and eventually I was able to go off and have my own classes. Um, and then they kind of grew into really big classes. And that was kind of the start of my, um, career and teaching fitness to others. So, but I, I, you and Louis would come to those classes, which was great. Danielle (03:06):That's true. And I remember he filled out like a comment card once, , do you remember that comment card? Bethanee (03:12):Yeah. I still have that comment card. . Yeah.Danielle (03:16):Yeah. Um, yeah. Well, then I started doing some personal training with you there, and you actually introduced me to some movements that weren't a part of the classes. I think it was like deadlift and cleans, um, and just a lot of laps around the upper track, like bear crawl laps sometimes. I remember those. So just a lot of, um, fitness. But the one thing I remember about you from the very beginning, and that still stands out every time I see you, is that you, the way you relate to people and the way you show up is consistent and kind and inviting. And that, not that I don't love to work out. I do. I do it on my own too when I can. Um, but I, I did just enjoy showing up to get to hang with you and experience being with you. So, um, yeah. Bethanee (04:09):Yeah, yeah. So you're talking about, you know, just the time you spent kind of around me, I guess we got to spend more time with each other, whether it was in the private training or in the classes. And, um, we developed a friendship mm-hmm. over the years. Uh, yeah, go ahead and like, refresh me a little bit on, yeah. Danielle (04:29):So then tell me about your journey from the why forward, and I'd love to hear like how you made it. One thing we're just checking in with business owners and people, therapists, whoever we're in, whoever I'm interviewing is like, how did you make it through c what is your business doing? And like, where are you headed? So those are a lot of questions, but yeah, just catching up. Bethanee (04:50):Yeah. So, um, I moved to Bainbridge Island in 2015 to manage another gym, and I was still working for the Y M C A at the time, and I continued to work for the Y M C A for another year and a half, uh, after I moved. So I was commuting from Bainbridge to Silverdale, uh, multiple times a day. putting like 400 miles on my car, um, every week. Um, but eventually I left the Y M C A in 2016 to be in Bainbridge full time. And I took over, um, as an operations manager for a local gym out here. And it was a CrossFit gym. Um, and I came on as a personal trainer, and I came on as somebody that would be the basic, like on-ramp coordinator. There was no, um, program for new members or people coming into the gym to like safely assimilate into the regular gym communi. So, um, before I was hired, the gym saw a lot of turnover. Uh, its membership numbers were pretty low, and my job was to kind of turn that around. So within, I think it was within the first two years, uh, we doubled the membership size. Uh, we started to double the, uh, revenue, and we grew a personal training clientele in addition to group fitness clientele. Um, so that gym kind of became my home base, and I found, you know, lots of great friends and family, um, chosen family there. And some of my favorite people, like Danielle came with me, um, made the, the drive out to Bainbridge multiple times a week to work out. And in 2017, I became co-owner of that gym. Okay. And I was minority owner. I was not, um, like a big player in terms of partnership, uh, but it allowed me to kind of take on a little bit more in terms of what my role was. And at the end of 2019, um, the decision was made to take me off of the ownership. Okay. Um, which in retrospect was actually a really good decision. Okay. So, uh, the, the majority owner wanted to keep kind of control of the business and wanted to do it, um, so low. So I kinda stepped back a little bit. Um, then Covid happened. We moved the gym right before Covid happened to a new home, and that was really rough. We actually had a more than 50% turnover Oh, geez. When that happened. So, um, we had a very small membership, and then the shutdown came along shortly after Covid kind of became a mainstream thing. And so we immediately pivoted to an online type of format. We rented out all of our gym equipment, and I started putting on, uh, two days a week, or two days a week, two times a day, um, five days a week, live workouts for people. Whoa. So people could, they could tune in from their phone or their computer or, um, we actually linked it through YouTube as well. And, um, the gym owner at the time, he was streaming the content and I was delivering the workout, so I was writing the programming. Um, but we made this accessible for everybody by making it free. And our members continued to support us by, you know, keeping their membership active. Um, and we supported them by the videos and letting them borrow equipment. So, um, that went on for a few months, and then in May of 2020, um, it was time for me to step away from that business and go on my own because the owner was going to close the business down. So I did, and I kept doing the live videos. So twice a day, five days a week, um, up until actually over a year after that timeframe. But, um, in July of 2020, I was able to finally, uh, open my own gym business. And, um, I was working at a deal with the owner of the former gym to basically buy the assets of his company. So the membership, the equipment, um, the social media rights. So I didn't actually wanna buy the, the business itself. I wanted to kinda start fresh on my own. So, um, I was able to do that. It's a very, very long story that I don't know if you wanna spend time on, but, um, a lot of hard work on my part and a lot of support from my community, um, made that possible. So, so yeah. So in July of 2020, um, I decided to open my own business entity, and I didn't have a home for the gym. Um, I was basically training people in parks, in people's driveways, uh, school basketball courts, um, outdoor baseball fields, soccer fields, like anywhere I could find space, I would host classes, I would take private clients. Um, and I hauled equipment everywhere. I have like a little suv, it's like a mini suv. And it was full all the time of like, you know, thousand pounds of dumbbells medicine balls and kettle bells. Um, I even got three rowing machines in there a couple times to take them to the park, and, uh, yeah, rain or shine. Um, the community, like, they followed me. They came with me, and I held classes at 6:00 AM eight 30, noon, five 15, um, every day throughout the week for about six months outside. So, so that, that started in May or July, well, we couldn't see people until June. So when they shut down the state for fitness and in person, like wellness, activities, restaurants, all of it, they shut it down mid-March, and we couldn't do anything until June 2nd. Okay. I'll never forget the date because it was, you know, I was waiting for that date. Um, so as of June 2nd, 2020, I was able to meet people. Um, there was that little bit of time there between May and July when I officially opened where I wasn't technically, um, an employee of the former business, but I was still running the classes. I was still doing the live streams. Um, and my hope with that was that people would stay with me through the transition. Um, I also couldn't talk about a lot of it while it was going on, because it was in transition, uh, and I didn't wanna freak anybody out, if that makes sense. So my hope was to continue to foster a feeling of like, okay, this is our normal workout group, this is our normal time, this is our normal instructor. We're gonna keep that going. Mm-hmm. . And then behind the scenes I'm working with, you know, people to get the, the business deal done. So, um, hang on one second. Sure. You're okay, . Um, so yeah. So then in July I announced, um, that I was opening Elevate. Um, I didn't solicit anybody. Um, it was understood with the, with the buying the assets from the former business that we were going to just transfer everything over. Um, so the former owner was kind enough to do that for me. Um, and I solidified my deal of buying the former gym assets, uh, on September 3rd, 2020. So at that point, um, I still hadn't signed a lease. I still didn't have a space. I was still training people outside. I was still doing, you know, two times a day live videos on Facebook or YouTube. Um, and four days later, I signed my first commercial lease. Um, I found a space on Bainbridge, 4,000 square feet, uh, within my price range. And the location of the gym is, it's kind of North island, so it's kinda away from the ferry. It's closer to the bridge. So when you're driving onto Ba Bridge Island, it's about two minutes past the bridge. And so, um, a lot of people had feedback from me and they said, you know, that's too far for a lot of people to go. And I just said, you know, if people are willing to follow me to a park, to a school, to somebody's random driveway, to somebody's random property in the middle of the woods to do a workout, like, they'll come to this location. And, and so, um, I signed my lease, I put my deposit down. And so yeah, that week I had my, my business deal done. I had my lease, and luckily I had a really great landlord who was willing to work with me and, um, make it so that I could afford to be there. So, um, my gym community helped me remodel the space. Uh, they donated money for the floor. They donated money for, uh, repairs that we needed. The building I moved into, needed a lot of work to be a functional gym space. And, um, on October 10th, so a little over a month later, we opened our doors. Wow. That is So, yeah. And it was just in time for like, the rain and the cold. So our workout hours were starting to get kind of cold, you know, 6:00 AM class was in the dark. Um, but overall, like, you know, it was perfect timing. And with Covid, sorry, there's lots of seagulls outside right now. Um, with Covid, there were a lot of restrictions around opening a business, and I had been really enjoying being outside because we had less restrictions outside. Like, everybody felt a little more comfortable. We didn't have to wear masks. Like we could space out, you know, 50 feet away from each other if we wanted to. Um, moving everybody inside was a challenge. I would say at least 30% of my membership didn't wanna be inside. And even with that, we could only run classes of five people at a time, because state regulations said five people at a time. So we made these squares, like, I think it was like seven by seven squares. You'd come into the gym, you'd go to your square, you'd get your equipment, you'd stay in your square, keep your mask on. Um, it was hard, you know, and trying to basically tell people, like, you know, your workout will still be fun while you're wearing a mask. Uh, a lot, a lot of people got it. And a lot of people did not like it. You know, it was different. It was uncomfortable and sweaty. Um, but for me it was like, you know, this is a really small price to pay to do the thing that you really wanna do. So if, like, you have to make this little tiny sacrifice for an hour to get your fitness on, like, so, um, I'm happy to say we didn't have a lot of turnover, you know, because of that. Yeah. Um, there, there were a couple people that had strong feelings, and I, I very, you know, happily said goodbye to them mm-hmm. because the, the health and the safety of my community is like the most important thing to me. So, um, yeah, I wanted to make sure that I did everything I could to keep people safe. Yeah, so we opened on October 10th, and then on November, I wanna say it was November 15th. So a little over a month after that, they shut down indoor fitness again in Washington State . So we had like a nice little month in our new space. And so, um, I reached out to the community and I was like, look, we have all this space outside. I need some popup tents. And the community came forward. I got seven popup tents. I put 'em up right outside the gym. I strung some Christmas lights, um, through them. I moved all the equipment up next to the big doors. So it was just accessible. And we ran classes outside from mid-November until February 1st. So we were out there Christmas Eve, we were out there in New Year's Eve, we were out there in the snow. Um, some days we had, I mean, we had to wear masks, I think up until like January. Like there was, there were a lot of rules. And I'm just really grateful that people were there to, to work out. And, you know, they were uncomfortable and they were cold. And, um, I figured if we could make it through that park, like basketball courts, like snow outside, inside, like I figured whoever was still there would probably stay. So Danielle (16:32):I think what you haven't said, I think what you're saying, and also didn't say very clear, like it's very clear, but it's not like in a clear sentence, is Bethany, people love the community that comes around you and the, the vibe and the community you create. And I think it's just evident, you know, first I know it for firsthand from my relationship, but even to hear the story again, I'm just so impacted at there's more there than just like, Hey, I wanna show up and lift a dumbbell. Bethanee (17:05):Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. You know, the, the, the gym community during Covid, I think we all really needed each other. You know, we needed, um, we needed a sanctuary, we needed an outlet. You know, there were people that were working from home who had never worked from home before. And all of a sudden, you know, your environment changes. And with that comes, you know, do you have kids that are also home? Do you have a spouse that's also home? Like, are you able to have, you know, you time, are you able to have self care time? Um, are you able to take out, you know, your stress from the pandemic in like a healthy way? Uh, elevate became a place, I mean, for all of us, for me too, um, where we were able to just, you know, work on ourselves or be with people that we loved, you know, outside of our families. Um, and with us shut down restrictions. Like, you know, we're not all hanging out with other people. So for some people, like this was their only social interaction mm-hmm. that they'd had, you know, all year And, you know, for me to, to be able to try to foster that environment for people, like that was everything for me. Like, it's great for me to see all of you. Like, I love that. I never take that for granted. I'm always happy when anybody walks through the doors. But to see people be able to, you know, develop relationships with other humans, you know, even if it's like in a, like we're workout buddies, you know? Um, I think during that time, especially during like strict quarantine, lockdown time, like coming outta that, like we needed interaction mm-hmm. and like the other, the other places you were gonna get it was gonna be like grocery store, gas station, Costco, you know, but there was no, you couldn't just go hang out with people Yeah. So anyway, it was kind of a safe haven. And we also got to work out, which was like a super bonus. So Danielle (19:02):One thing I always notice about coming into your gym too, I think that creates a community feel for me is that you have all of these different flags hanging in the gym, and you've supported, um, supported so many different causes that I think move towards community or inclusivity. And I just wonder you've made that a really important part of your community and how you do business. I just wonder if you'd speak to that a little bit. Bethanee (19:29):Yeah, yeah. So, um, I come from, you know, pre elevate days. I come from a background of doing general fitness in a, in a big setting, corporate setting, like the Y M C A, you know, or a Snap Fitness or a, or a Silver Fitness. Um, and then coming into the CrossFit world, elevate is not a CrossFit gym, but the gym I used to manage was coming into that world and seeing, you know, flags up in gyms that are representative of the, the armed services, you know, honoring people that serve their community in some capacity. Um, so when I open Elevate, I wanted it to be different. Obviously, I didn't want it to feel like a CrossFit gym because I was trying to get away from that. Um, and that's a whole other great story. Um, but there was more, there was more than that, right? So, not only do I wanna honor people who have served their country, so whether it's Army or Coast Guard, you know, um, air National Guard, Navy, space Force, um, somebody got us a Space Force flag. Uh, I wanted to make sure to touch on the other community members. Um, so like the l lgbtq community, the trans community, the non-binary community. Um, so we have flags that represent all types of people that are up in our gym. And, you know, when people walk in to elevate, I want them to, to see something that resonates with them. Like, I want them to see something that makes them feel like, oh, like, I belong here, or I'll be accepted here. Or there are people like me here. Mm-hmm. , um, yeah, without question. I think, you know, if, if you walk into Elevate, like you're gonna know right away what kind of person I am. Like, you're gonna know what kind of community we have. You're gonna see Black Lives Matter signs on the walls, like you're gonna see rainbows everywhere. And it's not just that, like, those things are great, but I also think that the people really make it special. So if like, you walk in, you don't know anybody, you just moved here, you, you've been in isolation for two years cuz of Covid. Like, I totally expect every single person in that room to say hi to you the first time you walk into that gym. And then every time after that mm-hmm. , you know, um, Danielle is really good at saying hi to everybody, everybody, you know, and, and making it special. Like, and it's never, how do I, it it's always genuine. Like, you, you genuinely mean it because you genuinely care about people and you're not the only person like that. And I'm so happy that there are more people like you, you know, welcoming, like caring, giving humans that are like, willing to give their energy or their space, you know, or a hug or just how are you, how are your kids? You know? Um, like I've, I don't want our gym to be a cold space. I want it to be a space where, you know, you walk in and you see a picture of somebody that you know on the wall doing something amazing, right? We have all these black and white photos of our community, um, doing hard things, doing workouts, like mm-hmm. it. Yeah. So, so I really want it to be, um, known like from the second you walk in that that space is special mm-hmm. and inclusive mm-hmm. . So, um, I think in terms of like providing, you know, um, equity for my members or accessibility for my members, um, I've never turned anybody away. And, you know, if people, like, we have people that range all over the board. Um, bay Bridge Island is a pretty affluent community, but not everybody that lives here is affluent. Right? We have lots of people that lived here that live here currently, including myself, who depend on affordable housing, who depend on help, who depend on, um, additional resources like to stay here. And whether it's they wanna stay here for a job or maybe they have a family member or kids or a school district, like, I think that no matter what your, like social status is, your economic status, like your demographically, you should be able to have access to health and wellness. And what we do falls into those categories mm-hmm. . And so, um, we have our general membership options, which is our standard, you know, this is what we charge per month, this is what we charge per a year, you know, if you wanna deal. Um, but we also have a scholarship fund so that we can really help people who aren't in need of financial assistance. Um, yeah. And, and you know, some people have offered to help, you know, they've reached out to me and they've said, Hey, like, is there a way I can sponsor somebody? Like, is there anybody that needs, um, financial assistance to be here? And the answer is yes. Like, there's probably always gonna be people in our community that need help. And so the, at the very least, what I can do on my end is have options ready for them. Mm-hmm. . So, um, the other side of that is like, you know, there are people that don't live here that wanna be a part of our community mm-hmm. . So how do we reach those people? Like maybe those people can pay for services, maybe they can't. So I keep, you know, over 350 videos, prerecorded videos of workouts on my Facebook, my business Facebook people can access at any time. So if they wanna do a strength workout, they can access that. If they wanna do a conditioning or cardio workout, core workout, if they wanna do mobility and stretching for an hour, all of that is up there and all of that is free. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, if I can hit all of those targets and, you know, if people wanna be a part of the community, like give them an option to be a part of the community and whatever that looks like for them. Danielle (25:00):I love that. I love that. And, and just, I wonder if you would speak to now more recently, and I think you had some other, like, kind of like growing programs. You had a hiking group, I saw, um, you've had some workshops that are, have either happened or are happening. Like how does that work at Elevate? And, and would you talk a little bit about about more like what you guys offer for that too? Bethanee (25:22):Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the Elevate staff is made up of 11, 12 people. 12 people including myself. Um, and all of our staff are different. They're all amazing. They all have their strengths. Um, none of us are the same. Mm-hmm. , you know, we all have different backgrounds in terms of how we, you know, came to this place, how we came to be trainers, um, our stories might be different and why we even want to help people through fitness mm-hmm. . And, you know, my goal as a, as a gym owner is to try to help my staff take their strengths and help them grow their strengths. Mm-hmm. , right? And then also help them, you know, if, if they need like, developmental work in other areas, like to help them, you know, get to where they wanna be. Um, but if they have a specialty, like let's hone in on it. Like let's shine some light on it and let's make it your thing. Like, if you're really good at it, like you should absolutely be doing it if that's something you want. So, um, yeah, we've had a couple programs and I've, this has kind of been this last like six months or so. Um, I feel like we're finally coming out of the Covid Haze. Yeah. So we're able to actually do some of these things. Um, we've been able to establish a hiking group. So we have two coaches, Lance and Nikki. Both of them are certified mountain guides. Both of them are certified personal trainers. Both of them, um, do bouldering. They do like really long distance hiking, um, mountaineering, like this is their jam, right? And so I'm basically like, build a program. Mm-hmm. bring it to me. Let's make sure everything clicks and works and let's figure out, you know, what we wanna charge for this extra service. Cause this is your specialty, and then let's put it out there. Mm-hmm. . So first year hiking program, we had 13 attendees. Uh, we had two scholarship attendees, and yeah, they, they did I think six big hikes. And, uh, the feedback was great. Like people really had a good time. Um, they were challenged. There were people of all fitness levels. So again, like when we talk about like inclusivity or, you know, people being in different places with their fitness, um, we had people who were new to fitness who were pretty deconditioned all the way up to people who were like very experienced hikers and everybody was able to be a part of this. Okay. So we did like a, a base charge for that charge. Like, Hey, you know, six weeks, I can't remember what we charge. I think we charged $370 for six hikes. Um, it also included six one hour workouts that elevate, um, the program was called Fit to Hike. So the goal was to help people basically start to be conditioned for hikes, but also to help them maintain and improve their, um, their strength, their stability, their coordination, um, their balance and mobility and their ankles, their knees and their hips. Um, but it was all very specific to helping them be better hikers. Okay, cool. So that was the first big program that we launched. Um, second program that we've launched recently. Um, Megan, one of my coaches, she is a prenatal and postpartum fitness specialist. Um, she has multiple certifications and education background in serving women, um, who are either expecting or recovering their body after having children. Um, and her program is amazing. She's probably the most thorough human I've ever met in my life. , um, . But she's lived it, right? So she has two babies of her own. Um, she knows what it's like to go through pregnancy, to have to, you know, bring yourself back to a place where you, you know, really feel strong in your own body. So it's not so much about, I wanna lose the weight, or I wanna, you know, be, um, more fit than I was before I got pregnant. Like, her approach is holistic. Like, she wants you to feel good in your own body, right? And for some of us, it's gonna look very different than I wanna lose 30 pounds or 60 pounds. It's like, I wanna feel strong. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I think Megan really shines in terms of helping people, not just women, but people in general, you know, find their own strengths again. Mm-hmm. . And so she started this new program. Um, there's four classes a week. They're 45 minute classes, and it's, we've called it Elevate Moms. Um, but it's, it's working with that demographic and enrollment is open. So if you are still thinking about trying a class, you know, or if you love it, we do punch cards. Um, it's a separate service outside of our normal class membership because again, it is her specialty and it is her, you know, taking her time to really build these programs specifically for these women. So, um, in the future, we have a cycling program coming, um, from Coach Holly. Yeah. And Holly is, um, a newly certified personal trainer. She just recently passed her NASM certification, which is, it's a big deal. Um, that test is not easy. That's, that's the certification I hold. And it took me over a year of self-study to feel ready to take that test. Um, but she's developed a really, really nice, and what I think will be really effective program. Um, and we have quite a few people who are interested in doing this with her. So, um, stay tuned for more information on that. But yeah, so that's coming. Um, and then in addition to that, we also have, uh, an onsite physical therapist, Greg Spooner. And he has started doing, um, free workshops for the community, not just the Elevate community, but his community of clients and, you know, Bainbridge Island general population community. So he's trying to, um, one, bring awareness to the fact that he does have a business here on Bainbridge and his, uh, practices run out of Elevate Space. So he, he runs space from us and, um, basically you'll see him working with clients in our gym and we share the space with him. So he's been a really great, um, addition to our business model. So he's got, I think, a, uh, hip pain workshop tonight. Oh. And I, I think it starts at 6 45. Yeah. Anyway, I'll find the link, I'll send it to you. And then he is got another one coming up in December. So, yeah, Danielle (31:30):I mean, look, you went from like being, like managing a business a few years ago to then working out in parks and in people's driveways to having your own space, and not only doing classes and personal training, but all of the programs you're launching. It's amazing. Bethanee (31:48):It feels really good to see it all kind of coming together. And, you know, if I think back to, let's see what, it's 2022. So 2015 before I started working on Bainbridge, um, I was working at the Y M C A making minimum wage. I was working at a local nutrition store making minimum wage. I was going to college full-time, and I was working in a restaurant, and I was, you know, living day to day . And it was very, very hard. Um, but I knew for, I just, I knew that if I kept going down this path, that things would be okay and and Mm, you know, I think all the way up through the pandemic, I sorry to hear my dog snoring . Um, like I know what it feels like to like really struggle, you know? And to finally feel like I have some roots in something. I have some equity in something. I mean, it's a really powerful feeling. Like I am 32 years old. I think it's taken me most of my, you know, working adult life. I've been working since I was 15, um, to feel like I, I'm rooted mm-hmm. , and, you know, I'm not rolling in money. I'm not , you know, but I, but I, I feel like I've worked, you know, pretty hard to have some stability in my life and I have it mm-hmm. Um, but I wouldn't have it without my community, and I would not have it without my staff. So I just wanna really shine some light on that, that, you know, the people around me have made it so that, you know, we can all benefit from this. Um, like as much as I wanna take care of myself, I wanna take care of the people that work with me. Mm-hmm. , absolutely. Like, I want my staff to feel like it's worthwhile for them, not just, um, in a rewarding sense of helping other people find their own power, but, you know, like, can I survive on this? And so, um, yeah. You know, while my, my biggest goal is wanting to serve my community, I, I wanna, I wanna serve people that work for me too. Danielle (33:53):Yeah. How, how do you look at when you come to a new year? Do you have goals or hopes for the new year? Even? Like, thoughts about what you're doing in your community? Like, or do you get there when you get there? Or like, how does that work for you? Bethanee (34:10):Yeah. Um, I have some big goals. Uh, I feel like if I, if I try to do too much at once, that's when I get, you know, everything gets jumbled. It takes way longer than it should. So, so what I've been practicing is just kind of attacking one thing at a time. , instead of having, you know, 15 irons in the fire as like, I have two, you know, and that feels, that feels good. Um, one of my biggest goals is to get involved more in our youth community. Um, and we already, we already do that to some extent. You know, I work with the Bainbridge Island Rowing community, and this year I think there's about 80 youth, um, participants in that program that I'm working with. And that's just one way that I have some outreach into the youth community. Um, I'd love to do some seasonal sports training, um, whether it be with the cross country team, I do work, work with some football kids and some water polo kids already. So basically growing those connections, um, with the youth sports. Um, but I've also had an introduction to Bainbridge Youth Services, um, which is an organization on our island that helps teens work through all kinds of things, whether it's at risk, teens, um, finding help, whether it's teens needing mental health, um, um, resources. Um, like I wanna become, I want Elevate to become a hub for, um, basically working with the youth and being a resource for them, being an anchor for them and whatever that looks like. So whether it's through fitness, you know, know, maybe it's through stretching, maybe it's through just finding, you know, some sort of mentorship program. Um, that's really important to me. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, I've been really lucky to work with mostly the adult population on Bainbridge, um, and some youth stuff sprinkled in, but I'd really like to dig a little bit deeper into that and, and, you know, build on that. Um, and that's gonna take some work in other ways, but I've got some stuff moving and some people helping me with that, so I'm really excited about that. Um, I also would like to expand, you know, my business visibility in terms of being a safe place for people, um, who may not, uh, feel like they fit in in a normal gym setting. So, uh, one thing I've really enjoyed, especially in the last year, is meeting more of our local, um, trans community, um, meeting more of our local non-binary community. Um, especially in like, again, like the youth here. Like, there's a lot of change happening and there are a lot of people who are, you know, becoming more comfortable being their authentic selves or feeling like they're in a place where they can, you know, join a gym or find a community or be friends or, I just, I'm seeing a lot of that happening right now. And, you know, I want Elevate to be like a giant beacon of like, acceptance for everybody. Um, yeah, I'd love to obviously increase my membership. Um, , I, uh, that's always a goal, right? How I would love to serve more people, um, right. As far as, you know, personal training, I have the world's best training clients. Um, some of my clients have been training with me for almost a decade, Danielle. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of them have been here with me since I moved here, so 2015. And I feel very lucky. Um, yeah, I feel like this is not a normal thing. Like it's great, you know, but in, you know, where I live before, I'm not sure if I would've had this type of longevity with people. And I think, you know, people have the resources here to make it long term, and even if they don't, but they wanna be hero, you know, we figure it out. Um, but yeah, the only, the only other big goal that I've got is just helping my staff grow and, you know, become stronger coaches or, you know, work on skills that they wanna work on if they already are strong coaches. And, yeah. So, Danielle (38:00):Well, Bethany, if someone like is listening and they're like, and they're maybe not in the area, like maybe you can put a link in for your gym, or if they wanna give to your scholarship fund or, you know, pay someone's membership. Like, I would love anybody who's listening to just join that so we can get that in the notes or whatnot. Bethanee (38:18):Yeah. Yeah. I'll drop that. Danielle (38:23):Thank you for joining us on The Arise podcast. And I just wanted to give a little shout out that the website is elevatestrengthco.com. And when you, you get on that website, there's a couple different tabs you can hit. You can hit get Started, there's a link to their Facebook and Instagram page, group fitness, personal training, get to know the team and some of the values that Elevate holds. So check it out. 

Website is reclamationcounseling.net and my instagram is @reclamationcounselingllcJenn is a therapist and writer who resides in Mobile, Alabama. She is also currently working as a fellow with the Allender Center. A lifelong resident of the south and a mother of four wild and remarkable daughters, she is passionate about reclamation. She loves to see those who know the legacy of trauma carve new paths forward and reclaim their voices, their bodies, and their stories - that they may truly live. She is currently taking new clients for therapy within the states of Alabama and Florida and also has story work coaching availability for those across the country.Danielle:Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and healing. And today, I'm so honored to be joined by a therapist and a colleague, Jennifer Jordan. We talk a little bit about spiritual abuse and its impacts, so, uh, link in notes to get ahold of her bio and find out how you can hear more from her. Just so honored to have this conversation. Yeah. It's, it's really good to be with you. You know, I got, I got to know Jen a little bit. Do you prefer Jen or Jennifer?Okay. I got to know you a little bit through our, when we intersected at a training course at the Lander Center, and we were in the same group, and I was like, oh, I like that woman. Um, I loved your vulnerability, your skill as a facilitator. I trusted you, and then just who you emanated as a person. And so it feels really like an honor to get to talk with you in this space, like on a podcast. So thank you for coming.Jennifer  (01:44):Yeah. I'm so glad to be here and like, echo everything you're saying, like it feels really fun and exciting and like, um, uh, an honor to get to have this conversation. Mm-hmm. , you know, outside of the context that I've known you previously, so.Danielle (02:00):Right. Um, you know, like, I don't know if you're familiar with my pod, with our podcast, but, um, Maggie is on a break right now, like doing grad school and doing other things. But a lot of what we've noticed since the pandemic and since we've started talking on the podcast is how much spiritual abuse has been highlighted. Of course, prior to even, I think that awareness was the me Too movement, and then just patriarchy just seems like dripping every, like in all the systems we operate in mm-hmm. . And so yeah. As a clinician, as a therapist, like, before we jump into that, just love to hear like, what are you doing, where are you located, and what are your passions around serving, uh, people?Jennifer (02:49):Yeah, so I'm in Mobile, Alabama, down in the south, um, working as a therapist. Um, so I see clients, um, see clients in, um, Alabama and Florida, and then also offer some, um, a bit of a different service story work, consultation to people outside of, um, those states. But, um, really, really passionate. Um, my, my, my practice is called Reclamation Counseling. I feel super passionate about helping people to reclaim, um, what's been taken. Um, whether that's, um, their, their bodies, right, their voices, um, or just their stories have kind of been co-opted into a larger narrative, um, that, that removes their personhood and their individuality, um, and their culture. Um, I think that that's, that's my passion. I think it comes out in different ways, um, depending on the type of, uh, client that I'm working with. But, um, that's what I'm, that's what I'm about. And, and it's a major, it's a major thing for me. It's a big deal for me because that's been so much of my story. Um, and so, yeah, that, that's where I'm at. That's what I do. It's what I'm about.Danielle (04:02):I love that idea though. Like reclaiming, I think you said bodies and stories mm-hmm. . So when you think about that reclaiming process, like what do you see happening for clients or people you work with or maybe in your own life, if you can just speak to that a little bit.Jennifer (04:20):Yeah. So there's so much overlap there certainly, um, but overlap in terms of, um, like what I see happening with my clients and then what I see happening with myself. Um, but, you know, at the root, um, like naming the truth of the stories, the stories of both our personal individual lives within our families of origin, but then also, um, the larger narrative, like the stories of our ancestors, the stories of the culture that we come from, um, and, and as we piece together the truth of those stories, um, and, and, and the ways that, um, buying into, um, falsified stories, um, have cost us, um, that process of reclamation can begin. Um, and so, you know, you talk about spiritual abuse and patriarchy and pure culture and, um, and, and, you know, white supremacists, like all these things are so overlaid and so, um, so connected. But, um, so much of my process has been, um, like naming these multiple layers, these multiple layers of harm, um, that have like, been the building blocks on which my particular stories of harm have have been laid. And so, um, yeah, pulling the stories apart, naming the, naming the truth of the stories and then, um, like what, what has buying into, um, the, the, the false narrative of somebody else cost me? And what do I wanna take back as my own?Danielle (06:00):Hmm. Oh, when you think about that, like take back as your own and, and the intersection between, you know, you named a lot of layers. Yeah. Um, would you be able to speak a little more particularly to patriarchy and spiritual abuse?Jennifer (06:14):Yeah. So, um, you know, I, um, sharing some of my story, um, that, that's kind of the lens that I, I typically think through. Uh, I think we all do that, but, um, it's, it's what I'm most expert in, I guess. Um, uh, you know, if I think that this is true within many, um, evangelical circles, I think that being in the south, being raised in the deep south, um, in soybean fields on a farm, um, there's, there's an added layer to this, but, um, so much of what it means to be a good, good Christian girl, um, is to be, uh, what the, the system of patriarchy demands, um, of, of a female child. And, and so, um, you know, I learned at a very early age what was, what was, uh, most well received by the men, um, in my family, um, which was also kind of the spiritual context that I was raised in.Um, and so I, I became really expert at doing that. And in that lost a lot of my voice, uh, lost a lot of my body, um, and also like gained some things that I've had to lay down. Um, and so yeah, it, it's been, I mean, there's, so, I mean, even as I'm starting to kind of name the reality, right? I feel the weight of the layers and I feel the just memories coming back and, um, uh, just, just the reality that it's been, been a process of kind of crawling out of a hole. And, um, I think for many of us who have, who have had that experience of, um, like our, our, our position and existence as a female wedded within, um, patriarchal spiritual systems, um, and then you put like the, the intricacies of like how white supremacy connects into that. Um, it, it is like there are layers and layers and layers and layers and layers to kind of dig out of. And so, um, I feel that even as I'm starting to name some of those truths,Danielle (08:28):Right? And I hear in what you're saying that you're able to hold or talk about, like, yeah, I, I lost these things, and and maybe you can say exactly what, even if it's general, what you, what a person tends to lose in that group. Yeah. And then I also gained some things. Yeah.Jennifer (08:50):Yeah. So, you know, I i going to, going into what I lost, um, you know, there is a very, um, particular thing that happens to me even now as a, as a 35 year old adult, right? That I've, I've done so much work around and have fought to ground my body in the midst of, but there is something that happens when, um, a man who has positional or spiritual authority, um, speaks to me. And, um, it, it, I've described it as almost like a brainwashing, um, a Halloween out, um, a a robotic falling in line, um, and a pleasant expression. Um, and so, so in that, you know, there's the loss of, of my own response, um, my own, uh, choice to disagree or agree, um, my own emotion, um, because kind of having a big emotional response was not, not okay. Um, and also, um, just the, the reality of the truth that my body holds in those moments, um, it, it, there's no space for it.And so, yeah, learned from a very early age that that really needs to be set aside, which that in and of itself set me up for lots of other harm later down the road. Of course. Yeah. Um, but, but yeah, those are the things that it lost that I lost. But I think, you know, navigating what that gained me and my complicity within that, um, is, is a such a, like a concept that is so full of grief, um, and, and almost like it feels maddening to consider, but it, it, like we have to face it. Like I, as a southern white woman have to face that, right? Um, and so, um, it, it, it got me specialness, it got me preference and privilege mm-hmm. , um, it got me protection mm-hmm. , um, it got me, um, a voice even though it wasn't my own mm-hmm. . Um, I had, I had a space to exist where others didn't mm-hmm. , um, and it, it, and it got me the reputation of being, um, what I didn't wanna be and also what I wanted to be, which was, um, pure and preferred and desired. Um, and so there's a lot of complexity there, certainly, um, and a lot to grieve and, and much more to name, I'm sure. But those, those are some of the first thoughts I have.Danielle (11:31):It is kind of a miracle if anybody makes a 20 years of like, but when we got married, Luis, uh, came from Mexico on a fiance visa, and, um, he crossed, he was able to cross the border sooner than we thought because the visa came through so quickly, and then we had 90 days to get married. And so that 90 day window, we had scheduled our wedding for November, and I, it, we were out of the window for getting married. So the church wedding was in November. So he came up, we needed to get married, and the sooner we got married, then the sooner we could roll on the legal paperwork. Right. So we found a judge, the judge came to my parents' living room, and I remember telling him, like, and mind you, this is a guy not raised in purity culture, not raised in the strict evangelical setting. I was raised in telling him like, we can't have sex until we're married at the church because we're not married in front of God. And he's like, what? What do you mean? Like, ? Like, we're getting married. But I was like, no. Like, I'm convinced. So we got married in front of the judge, and I remember we got married, and I remember telling him like, I feel married. He's like, we're married.I had like kind of proclaimed my purity in a sense to friends and family, like, we're not gonna have sex until we're married at the church. Mm-hmm. , and I was praised for that. Mm-hmm. , like, we were admired for that. And I remember even one time my parents went outta town and Louis was living there, and I made him, I locked him out onto the front porch to like avoid the quote unquote appearance of evil.Wow. I just, as you know, 20 years came up. People are like, why do you have two wedding anniversaries? I'm like, actually, it's purity culture.Gosh. But I think of the status even I gained in my family, gained by me holding to some false narrative of what, what marriage actually meant mm-hmm. that somehow it wasn't in the sight of God because it was a judge. Mm-hmm. . And so I did gain access and privilege, and I think in the meantime, Luis was like, well, I really love this woman. Like, what are we doing? Yeah. I'm just gonna go along . But that, I mean, that story's been so present in my mind as you share, like, uh, they, I did hold a sense of pride in that time mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , look what I did like Yeah. Yeah. And was praised for it among friends and family, you know? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.Jennifer (14:14):. Oh, yeah. Yes. I mean, look at how, yeah. And there's something of the, the holy struggle there too, right? That makes it even that much more admirable. Like, oh, we're, we're married, but we're not, actually, we're gonna, we're in a way, you know, there's, there's, yeah. That's complex. But yeah, I mean, I feel that, I feel that I feel, um,In a, in the, the system I was raised in, um, which was highly patriarchal, uh, my grandfather was Greek is Greek, um, but, but just high, high, highly patriarchal, um, kind of extended family system that I lived in the middle of. Um, and, and women had a few jobs, um, which was, you know, to safe in and cook good meals and, um, and, and don't have emotional outbursts. Um, and so in that, in that, that place, like I felt very invisible, right? And so to, to be really pure and really, um, good and what they needed me to be, um, felt like it got, it got some of the attention that I was so longing for. Um, so it's really, it's really quite a trap, um, to be in the middle ofOh, that's a great question. Um, and a complex question because I think the truth of the answer to that question is that I was really good. I was really good at being what everybody wanted me to be, um, really, really good at it. Um, and even in, in places where I wasn't so good at it, I was really good at hiding. Um, so I, I kept the appearance of, um, of, of, of what everybody wanted, um, and, and, uh, and it, it enabled me to survive, but also, um, caused my death in many ways. SoDanielle (16:24):Yeah. There's something about that type of survival where you have to kill off who God created you to be. Mm-hmm. that, and I'm not saying the survival is unholy, but what's required of us to survive in the system is an unholiness mm-hmm. in a system that's proclaiming Yes. This is the way to be more holy. Right?Jennifer (16:49):Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, I mean, try, I'm trying to put word more words around that, and it, I just feel kind of the madness of it, right? Like the madness of to exist here and belong here, I need to be a certain thing. Um, and yet to be that certain thing means that I, I have to forsake and kill off so much of, of like the truth of who I am, and so either I'm cast out or I'm, um, or I'm being a fraud to stay. Um, and so it, it's, it's a, it's a bind.Danielle (17:24):Mm-hmm. when you feel that bind, I think there's always, like, you know, as therapist, we like talk about, like, let's highlight the bind. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, well, what good is that? Yeah. Thanks for intensifying it, but like, how the heck do we get out? Or how the heck is this made Right. Or redeemed? And just curious, like, where does your mind go? Not that you have the answer and need to have the answer, but how do you meander through that for yourself or for clients?Jennifer (17:55):Dude, I mean, I think the, the first thing that comes to mind is just, um, like being willing to feel the grief of, of the unspeakable bind that, that, that position is. Um, and, and I think the grief brings us softness, um, that enables us to, um, feel our hearts again, , if, if that makes sense. Because I, I think that there's so much hardness required, um, to exist in that bind. And so I think that grief brings us softness that then allows us to face the truth a bit more, a bit more realistically. And then I think that, that if we are in a system that requires that of us, um, like we have to, we have to make the hard choice to face our complicity, and we have to make the hard choice to, to, to crawl our way out of that. And I know in my experience, like that has not been pretty, and that has not been easy. Um, but I think that, I think that like we have a, we know we see the truth, like we have to do something with it.Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think hardening and I think like, um, just in existence, that that hollow is the, the best word to describe it, um, in existence, that that looks, looks pretty good, looks really good to people within the system. Um, but I think internally, um, like there, there are places within us that know that it's not, it's not real. It's not, it's not full, it's not authentic. Um, so yeah.Danielle (19:53):Yeah. I love that way. You talk about it like, first entering the grief, being willing to grieve both the ways we've been complicit in the ways we've been harmed and like that feeling. I think what I heard you say is what brings kind of that alignment mm-hmm. for our heart back online. Mm-hmm. , I just think it's like so crazy to me that in order to acquire belonging or acquire acceptance, we actually have to deny who God created us to be. Mm-hmm. .Jennifer (20:26):I agree. And it makes you question like, okay, if that's what's happening here right then, then what is, this is what's the good in this,Like, if, if we're all created uniquely in the image of God and, and the mission is that we would be more in alignment with that and be, be bringing God's kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven. Like if that's, if that's the goal and this, this system and structure, um, that is coded in spiritual candy, um, if you will, like, if it's requiring us to set aside those particularities to who we are, um, you know, I, you have to question like, Craig, what's the intent here? And I think the truth is a lot of the intent is like to hold power and supremacy. It's not to really do the, do the, the mission quote unquote mission of Jesus.Danielle (21:28):Right. Then I come to like, well, is that faith or religion or a cult or what's going on here? Because, because when I look back I'm like, well, well the, like, I can't deny what I read in the Bible. I can't deny what I felt Jesus. And yet I can say that where I was at was harming so many other people. Mm-hmm. , including myself., and how do I make sense of that? How do I make sense of learning about Jesus, learning about God learning, like, I'll just never forget, like around the whole abortion issue, the whole thing is like you're fearfully and wonderfully made mm-hmm. , and yet they don't want what God fearfully and wonderfully made once you're born and thinking and moving.So then I'm like, well, what, what? Like, what was I really was that Yeah.Jennifer (22:16):Yeah. I feel that intensely. And I think, um, I don't, you know, the question remains because it is, it is, you know, this I think for so many of us that are, that are pulling our way out of systems that have been harmful to us, right. Like these are, this is the place where I was introduced to the thing I most care about in my life. This is the place where I was introduced to the person of Jesus. And, and I don't know where I would be without that. And yet, um, to really be in alignment with Jesus, I have had to peel back all the other pieces of, of what else this system gave me. Right. The other messages. And so I hear you. I mean, I think it is just, it, it is a question. And I do think that there are, uh, I think that we can't, you know, we can't deny the, the pursuit of power mm-hmm. and comfort mm-hmm. and, and, and wanting to hold onto like black and white truth cuz it's comfortable and easy to stomach. Um,Danielle (23:30):Yeah. When you talk about reclaiming, I think for, for me, what I come back to is part of what I reclaimed is that Jesus showed up to me in a lot of spaces where he actually wasn't even welcome , but he introduced himself to meThrough almost a false narrative about him, but he, he showed up in himself, which is how I came to faith mm-hmm. and how I see my faith moving despite, despite the falsification of who he wasJennifer (24:04):Yeah. Which is so wild, like, and beautiful. Right. And, and just points to like his I amenity mm-hmm. that goes beyond these systems that, um, make him something other than he is. Um, but yeah. I love that. I love reclaiming, um, I love the way you said that, that in, in these systems where it was, you know, in fact wasn't very welcome like that in those places, he introduced himself to you. Mm-hmm. . I love that. And I feel that, feel that too. YouDanielle (24:44):Yeah. Sorry, I interrupted. Um, no, you're good. Jen. When you think about that reclaiming process then for, for your clients or for someone who's listening, being like, I actually can't leave the system, or Sure. You don't understand if I leave, I'm gonna lose my family. Mm-hmm. , you don't understand if I say anything about white supremacy or share anything about what I'm voting for, I might lose my entire community. Like when someone walks into your office in that situation, what, what do you do with that?Jennifer (25:18):Yeah, I mean, I, I I mean first thing is like validate because it's true. It probably is true. I mean, and, and, and I think that that reality points so strongly to the truth of the situation that that individual is in, right? The truth of that system, that there really is no space for individuality. Um, and, and that to begin to speak up or to begin to move out of that, um, can't have great cost. Um, I think that, that that's a truth that needs to be acknowledged. And, and, um, you know, I so acknowledging that, that that's a reality. Um, and I, I think with a lot of kindness, the question I would pose to that person would be, um, I don't know, I, I, you know, at at what, what's it, what, what is it costing you to, to, to, what is it costing you, um, to remain, right? Like, like cuz there is a big cost to leave. Like there is a huge cost, um, that, and you need support, you need resources, and you need, um, you know, people who, uh, can, can be with you in the grief of all that it will cost. Um, and I think just in the, the quiet like pondering of our own soul, we have to, we have to be willing to face what is it costing me of me to not do something? Um, and I think it begins with like very small Cause my experience was that like, it wasn't like being within a system, it wasn't just about the system, it was about the ways that I had been groomed mm-hmm. to not think, groomed, to not ask questions, groomed to not like Yeah. I mean, even ask a question, just say, Hey, like, why does this have to be this way?Mm-hmm. like, I, I like those things didn't even cross my mind. And so I think like, it, it, it, in truth, I think it has to begin very small, um, with the grounding of your body, the telling of the stories and safe spaces so that there can be an increment of change toward, um, toward peeling back those layers of grooming Right. To where you can't ask a question and, and, and, and do the work to hold your own. Um, and trust that a series of those little moments of reclaiming your own voice and your own body and your own opinion and your own sense of who Jesus is, um, can accumulate and you, you doing what you need to do, whether that's leaving or whether that's staying and trying to be a voice for good, a voice for change. So that, that's kind of a framework that I think through.Danielle (28:17):Yeah. I like the way you put that. Like, it, like, I think a lot of us think like change is going to be like, suddenly I just like tear the building down mm-hmm. or burn all the books that were, you know, like cult like . I think often the longest change is so incremental, which makes it so painful.But more sustainable, I think. Mm-hmm. it doesn't mean you don't lose what you were fearful you lose in the end. Sure. You still may lose all of those things, but you do gain a lot by through incremental change. Mm-hmm.Jennifer (28:53): certainly. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, you gain the, the beauty of who you are apart from that and, and, and you gain the, the feeling of, um, like I am being true to my own knowing, my own sense of right and wrong, my own, um, you know, my own spirituality. Um, and, and you know, I think it, it always is such a motivator for, for us as parents, um, to when we, when we know that what we're doing will have generational implications, right? It's like there is the potential for so much loss, even in the incremental changes that can't be denied, but to have a generational forward, like a, a forward facing view of what might be gained beyond my generation, should I be willing to take these incremental steps that, that could lead to major loss? Like is, is a worthwhile, worthwhile gain, um, just to give my kids a different chance, you know, just to give them like, like the beginning of a different narrative.So my website is reclamation counseling.net. Um, and I'm also on Instagram, um, building a presence there. It's at Reclamation Counseling llc. Um, so those are probably the two best, best places to find me. Um, but yeah, I'd love to connect and, um, I really, I feel so passionate, like you wanna come along alongside people who are asking them really hard questions and, and doing the really hard work of incremental change, um, within their stories that can lead to bigger waves of change outside of them. So yeah.Danielle (30:55):I wonder what you would tell someone who can't even pick up the phone or send an email or an Instagram message. Like, what, what do you tell that person that isn't up to doing that part of the labor? Like, what's your word forJennifer (31:09):Them? Oh man, that question like, brings tears to my eyes because, um, that just feels like very, like I remember those days mm-hmm. . Um, and I, I would say stay curious. Like, just stay curious, keep reading. Um, know that if you're not there yet, that's okay. And yet, like listen, listen to and honor that voice inside of you that's like wanting something more for yourself and wanting something more for your kids. Even like, don't, don't deny that there's time, there's space. Um, but keep, even if it's a little step of listening to another podcast or picking up a book or, um, you know, like asking the questions in a journal cuz you don't have anybody you can talk to about 'em. Like stay with that, that voice inside of you and stay curious.Danielle (32:04):Yeah. Well just thank you so much for your wisdom. So there's three questions that we usually wrap up with. It's what are you reading, what are you listening to, and who, or what's inspiring you?Jennifer (32:16):Okay. So, um, I'm reading The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Yeah. So trying to recover some practices of creativity and, um, it's been very disruptive and good for my life. Um, so yeah, I'm reading that, um, listening to Part from, you know, podcast. Uh, music wise, I've been listening to three things depending on who's in the car with me. Um, the Hamilton soundtrack, um, zombies, three soundtrack or, um, the new Taylors Swift album. So those are the three things that have been playing for me recently. And then, um, what's the last question? Are you inspired by Yeah. Who are you inspired by? Oh, man. Gosh, so many people, um, faith who are like, who are still speaking up and who have the courage to continue to be that prophet voice in the wilderness, like in the face of such violence, um, and, and, and dishonesty, um, from so many, um, other people of faith. Um, so I, I feel very inspired by those voices. So, and you're included in that, Danielle. Oh, thanks man. Appreciate your voice. Yeah. I'm inspired by this conversation, so we gotta do this again. Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. Yeah. Yeah.  

From Danielle: "Alethea is a skilled facilitator, and compassionate truth teller - and all around good people. Alethea teaches me, through her way of moving in the world, to continue to use my own voice. I know her to bring her awareness in difficult spaces for herself and others in moving towards healing. Alethea lives her life through the lens of love."I would be honored to co-host a podcast with her any time. She is also a DEI consultant, lives in Atlanta, GA, and loves being an auntie! Is...." A Black woman. Love being a black woman. Proud to be a black woman single, live in Atlanta, Georgia. Love it here. One of the homes of the civil rights movement. So it's been great to live here. And I love, one of the things I love about living here is I'm in the majority in a lot of places, which I was not used to prior to six years ago when I moved here. So it's part of, I feel like who I am and what I get to experience in my day to day, which is refreshing. I have served in the non-profit sector for the last 10 years specifically in a sports ministry context. But over time, that evolved to getting into doing work around training and development in the areas of race, power, privilege, ethnicity, culture in the gospel. And so really for my own journey, one understanding of how being a racialized person in a racialized society, what my experience has been. And I didn't have language for a lot of my experiences until I was probably 27 years old and realized that God cares about that. So that was just so new to me. So I feel like part of who I am is helping others understand themselves first and foremost of how they experience the world, how they show up in the world how they navigate the world. And then adding the faith perspective in as well and combining the two. And so that's very much a part of who I am is our history as followers of Jesus in this sense matters, but also who we are as people in whatever place we call home. For me it's here in the US in Atlanta, Georgia."   Danielle (00:40):Welcome To the ARise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender and healing. And just wanna welcome a colleague and a dear friend. She's located in the Atlanta area and she gives herself a robust introduction here and I love it because it is who she is. She about belonging, she is about being with others in their stories. She's about being authentic and true to what she believes. And I'm just so honored to have her with me today and it's election season. So we're gonna get into it and talk a little bit about that belonging Tiffany Cross from MSNBC whose contract wasn't renewed. And I encourage you to listen in and with curiosity and hold space for any kind of resistance you feel and just be curious about that and jump in with us. I mean, let's get into it. But Alicia, tell me a little bit about who you are, what you do. Yeah, jump in. Who are you?Alethea (01:52):, who am I? That's a great question. Are you? I am a black woman. Love being a black woman. Proud to be a black woman single, live in Atlanta, Georgia. Love it here. One of the homes of the civil rights movement. So it's been great to live here. And I love, one of the things I love about living here is I'm in the majority in a lot of places, which I was not used to prior to six years ago when I moved here. So it's part of, I feel like who I am and what I get to experience in my day to day, which is refreshing. I have served in the non-profit sector for the last 10 years specifically in a sports ministry context. But over time, that evolved to getting into doing work around training and development in the areas of race, power, privilege, ethnicity, culture in the gospel. And so really for my own journey, one understanding of how being a racialized person in a racialized society, what my experience has been. And I didn't have language for a lot of my experiences until I was probably 27 years old and realized that God cares about that. So that was just so new to me. So I feel like part of who I am is helping others understand themselves first and foremost of how they experience the world, how they show up in the world how they navigate the world. And then adding the faith perspective in as well and combining the two. And so that's very much a part of who I am is our history as followers of Jesus in this sense matters, but also who we are as people in whatever place we call home. For me it's here in the US in Atlanta, Georgia.So that's very much part of who I am. That's the type of work I do. And so now I've transitioned, I'm still in a nonprofit space but transitioned to a different space and continuing that work. So under the, what the other people call it, under the umbrella of dei, you know, everyone's like dei, what is that? I thought it was more common, I say it than people ask me, but diversity, equity, and inclusion. I've seen some people adding the B on there belonging, which is very intriguing to me. Brene Brown just has a two part podcast two part series on her podcast that she put out with two women of color. And I listened to part one about a week ago and was like, Oh, okay, this is some good stuff for me to think about. So anyway, so that's what the type of work I'm involved in.(But for me, it's not just a job, it's what I feel like to commit my life to right now. I feel very much a calling and a commitment to that type of work because it matters if we can see and how polarized just our country is not even thinking about the world cuz then we get into it. Even more matters there. But anyway, so that's part of who I am. I live in the context of community. Community is very important to me. So it hadn't been prior to 10 years ago I didn't understand the value of community but I knew I was longing for it. I knew something was missing. And so I feel like very part of much of who I am is being my connected to community. And I have an awesome community of people around me, both here in Atlanta and all over the country.I feel like when you hear people talk about me, one of the things that they will say is Alethia highly values her people. And I do. And so that, that's very significant to me, very much part of who I am. And I love being an auntie. I'm an auntie. It's my favorite title. I would probably say I love being a sister and a cousin, a friend, all that. But auntie is by far my favorite title of any title I've ever had. Lots of nieces and nephews part of my larger family, not just blood related but I love, love those kiddos and get to see one of my nephews next week, which I'm really excited about. But that's very much part of who I am. If you know me, I love being an auntie. So yeah, some of who I am,Danielle (05:55):I could see why you would want the word belonging in there. Cause I mean your story is about not only belonging to others but being belonged to.Alethea (06:04):Yes. And it's just been good for me to start reading some more about D E I B and just the significance of having belonging on the end of that. We belong to one another. One of the things some of my colleagues that we work together, we say we're better together and that's part of what we're trying to one live out but also help other people understand as well. And so I just love that. I don't feel like I can add it yet. I don't know, I feel like I'm just learning. So it feels weird to be like, yeah, I'm doing D E I D and it's like I'm still trying to figure out that part. But the more I read about it, the more I hear people talk about it in their work, the more I'm like, yeah, that actually is a significant part of it. Cuz if people don't understand that who we belong to and what belonging looks like and how to understand that, we're gonna miss out on some of those other elements that we're trying to reach people with.Danielle (07:00):Yeah, I mean as a Latina, as a Mexican, I'm like, yeah, if we don't belong then it just feels bad. , we see that playing out across society right now. So yeah,Right so we were talking, you and me were like, hey, I was like hey we should do a podcast together. And we were like, what should we talk about? And I gave you seven things, and at the end I was like, well what about if something comes up? And here we are on election day and you texted me last night and you texted me this story about Tiffany Cross and we'll jump into that. But I mean how can we even jump into that without saying where we are literally today? And I mean you're in Georgia and it feels to me out here in Seattle, Washington, we are very interested in what happens in Georgia.Alethea (07:48):A lot of people are, yes, it feels reminiscent of the 2020 election. Again, all eyes on Georgia, it was very funny, I was getting text as I was going to bed, I'm watching the polling numbers for Georgia from people that don't live here. I said, yeah, I gotta stop, I gotta go to bed. But yeah, it is all eyes I know on us among a few other states as well. But yeah, it's huge. Stacy Abrams running for governor again her race in 2018 was wild. And I still was talking to someone recently and they were like, I was kind of surprised she ran again and I actually read her post this morning, she posted cuz people have asked that question, why would you run again when you have such a public loss? And I love what she talked about, about who she is, where she comes from, her connection to her family when she lost what she did and why she's running again.She has so much purpose, which I love, it's very clear for her. But yeah, it was a wild, 2018 was wild cuz Brian Kemp was the Secretary of state. So he was overseeing the election he was running in which I still to this day am baffled how is that legal ? But it's apparently it's legal here in Georgia. So yeah, we have a significant number of major seats up for election actually. So governor, lieutenant governor, Secretary of State Attorney General, and then the Georgia State Superintendent. And so big things going on here in Georgia. So yeah, big day here and I hope Stacey Abrams wins. I voted for her, I had such a warm feeling and smile on my face and I got to vote for her when I went to vote on Friday. But yeah, it's gonna be ING to see and her social media, it will continue to be a buzz as all eyes are on us today and probably into tomorrow as well.So I know some of the votes actually in one of our counties have until November 14th to get them in because Georgia is one of the many states that passed a voter suppression bill last year and SB 2 0 2. And that bill is very problematic. And one of the things, the issues in that bill, which we saw in one of many ways come out just the other day, which the A C L U got involved was there are over a thousand people in one of the counties that never got their absentee ballots. And they were supposed to because of in the bill, it changed the amount of time that people have to request their absentee ballot and then to get it in. And people, I don't think people knew that. But then what happened was it backed everything up and there's not enough officials to process some of the things.And so in Cobb County they didn't get over a thousand ballots out and so they were supposed to mail them on Friday overnight they did it. So the A C L U got involved, sued Cobb County and won yesterday. And so the ballots went out, I think last night overnighted, but they have until November 14th to get them in. So as I was reading this morning on the so informed Instagram page, every vote matters because of how close on those races are. So I'm be interesting to see how much those votes, while we wait for those to come in, will affect some of the larger things in the stateDanielle (11:07):. Yeah, it's interesting. I think people from around the country get hyper focused on something is something that is happening in another state. And I was just talking to an elder in our community and we have things that matter in our county, in our state that we also need to be, We can't just assume because Seattle's a blue area or Washington's blue that it doesn't matter that we don't vote for instance, there was millions of dollars poured in from out of state to run television ads for a particular conservative candidate and the ad was literally the Democrats have opened the border and two, there's a picture of a two year old getting supposedly killed by Fentanyl and it's because of immigrants. And you're just like, I was telling my friend, I was like, that happened in Washington. And we're like, yeah, that that situation necessarily happened but that the political money pouring in actually happened. , which I think really highlights a lot of why you sent me this article, , because whose voice matters, whose voteWho gets equal air time , who is allowed to say what they think , who's allowed to push conspiracy theories, who's allowed to push voter suppression, and whose voice actually get eliminated from the . So I mean you sent me this article on Tiffany Cross and I'm just curious how you came across it.Alethea (12:40):Yeah, I mean all over social media. So I think it was on Friday Tiffany Cross, she hosted it was called the Cross Connection on msnbc. It was a weekend show and I just open up Instagram and my feed is just filled with people responding and reacting to Tiffany Cross not having being fired or something. And I'm like, wait, what? So look into it some more and find out her contract wasn't renewed but they, MSNBC sever ties with her immediately, which is not common . And so social media obviously is in an uproar. So that's actually how I found out about it. Just some different accounts I follow everyone was talking about it. Tiffany Cross is a black woman for those who don't know. And she held I think a significant spot especially in talking about politics and things of that nature. And so for her contract to not be renewed, but for four days before the midterms for her, immediately her show was just done.It was very problematic. So again, that's how I initially found out about it. I've just been reading quite a bit about it. And I think too, for me as a black woman there Friday was, it was like that happened and then an album dropped where Meg, the stallion was very inappropriately targeted in the album by Drake and 21 Savage. And so I think for me there was also this other layer of, First it was about Meg, the stallion, so that's my social medias and then we find out Tiffany cross' show, she's just done, It's like, hold on, what's happening to black women today? So I think it was also compounded in that nature too. But yeah, that's how I found out about it was the buzz on social media,It's been thinking quite a bit about this over the last few days and it's just such an interesting thing to navigate, I think being a black woman and seeing what happens to black women in media and in public and things of that nature. And so there's this double whammy of what's happening where we're in election season and so it's like black women save us every time. Black women save us. Like, oh my gosh, we gotta get Stacy Abrams in first, black female governor. Black women are, we gotta get 'em out and they're gotta get people voting and we need black women, black women to save us. That's what it's been for the last few years. So you have this happening again now in 2022. And at the same time, black women are being targeted for who they are as people, which is what happened to Meg, the stallion or because of how they show up in a space, which is what happened to Tiffany Cross. And so yeah, it's interesting to watch it. Very problematic to watch it unfold in that sense of, so you want us when it's convenient, but don't do too much . Hey Tiffany, don't be that candid. Don't use that type of language. Be careful of how you say certain things. But we want you to for so you can reach an audience that our network is not reaching. So I looked it up msn nbc, part of the reason they brought on Tiffany Cross she is said, I wrote an article that her audience was 55% female, 35% African American. She was targeting a specific audience. That's part of the reason why MSNBC brought her on. So it was almost like, hey, we know people listen to you and people watch you and so it's going to help us and that's really what we care about, but we don't wanna deal with the heat that comes with that. So we can only handle it for so long. So after a couple years, we'll see you . And I feel like the thing that's very common with black women, it's like, hey, we know people listen to you. We know people follow you. We know that you hold a significant place in society, but we only want part of you. And when we're done with that part we'll throw it out. Move on. And so I feel like again, that's really what happened. I feel like what happened with Tiffany is another example of that which is not uncommon. I feel like for the black experience in particular being a black woman in this country.Danielle (16:50):I mean I read a couple articles and they called her far left. I was like, Oh what Oh, Far left about. And I wondered if they needed to mirror the fact that they're now calling these extreme conservatives. Far . When I started reading what was far left, it really wasn't her views, it was more the way she communicated. Weren't comfortable with her candid observations,She wasn't actually purporting certain ideologies, it was more like observations. So I found that very curious. Did you pick up on that? Yeah.Alethea (17:30):I mean I feel like that again happens all the time. So I think we live in such a polarized society right now that it's the easiest thing to do is to pinpoint people. They're either far right or far left, no in between. It feels like you're, you say one thing that has a tinge of what we deem progressive liberal so far outreaching because it's so counter to what people on the very far side of conservatism would say. You're just deemed you're far left. And I don't think that's a helpful thing to do. And essentially, cuz really look at what you did was, well what's her ideologies? What is it that she is portraying or talking about that would put her in this quote category that people are putting her in their Audi is, well that's not true, but it takes some work. You had to read some things to say, Is that really true?Cuz I don't really know, so let me find out. But we don't know how to do that. We just do a couple clicks. And someone else told me she's far left, so I just gotta believe that she's just as far left person because she had to come back to Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly and they're far, so she's gotta be far left. And I think that's just pretty sadly very common in our society right now is it's easy to categorize people. And so really no, let's get underneath that. What was she actually doing that you didn't like? didn't like how candid she was? You didn't like that She held a spot on a weekend show, the most watched weekend show, and it was on MSNBC and she's the second most watched weekend cable news show in America. In America on the weekends. People got time on the weekends, they're watching tv.It was the second most watch in all of America in the us. And so what you didn't like was she held a significant place in cable news and you didn't like how she very honestly talked about situations and people. Now was she kind of bra with her some of her wording? Yes, she was. I read some of the stuff that she said like I don't know if I would say that on cable news, but hey, we're different people. But again, it's like, well then where does the standard lie? Because Tucker Carlson can be that brash and be that racist and that sexist, that misogynistic and it's fine because that's just who he is. So it's okay. But if Tiffany does it now, it's a problem. Now we're not gonna renew your contract.Danielle (19:54):Yeah. I just have even a hard time. I'm not, I just feel like Tucker Carlson actually won a lawsuit saying he actually doesn't tell the truth. That's how he won the lawsuit. Right? He's like, Actually you can't be deceived by me cuz I don't tell the truth. So he gets to stay online. It's interesting. It's not interesting. It's not a surprise that he targeted her. And it's also not a surprise that he actually carries that much power. And MSNBC is supposedly more liberal,Alethea (20:29):Supposedly that part. Right? Supposedly there's supposed a close up part, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think I just had this thought too, when you're making that comment of he win the lawsuit by saying, Hey, I don't sell the truth, but the power that comes with that. So I was reflecting on, as I was prepping to vote, actually last week, I was going back through and actually reading the bill SB 2 0 2 of what the voting laws used to be and what they turned into because of this bill. And then I went through and I was looking at as much research as one can do, right? I'm looking at all the different candidates for all the different things we're voting for here in Georgia. And I found it interesting that several of the Republican candidates voted for SB 2 0 2 and I was like, Help me understand something.If you are certain there was no voter fraud in the state of Georgia in 2020, why do we need to pass a bill to secure voting ? I don't understand that. I'm trying to understand if you are say, I mean people are saying there was no fraud here. Brad. Brad, he was like, I will not overturn the election. I will not find you 11,000 votes cuz it's not true. Our elections are safe and secure. What he said in 2020, why do you need to pass a bill then to tighten up, to tighten up voting rights if there's no fraud? Because even though they were saying we, there's no fraud in Georgia, you still believe the lie that there was fraud in the election. And so part of what you did, Brian Kemp, and the power that he has held as governor is, yeah, he doesn't like me anymore. 45. Okay, that's fine, but I'm gonna pass a bill because I have the power to do that because I wanna make sure I get reelected. Even though I've said, even though I've said there was no fraud, Rod Rothenberger Secretary of State said there was no fraud in our election, but I'm gonna vote for that bill.And so it's again, it's that point that you made of the power that comes with stuff like that and the ability to cling to a lie or just blatantly lie and still win or still have progress forward or still be able to hold your seat . And again, that's very common in our country. I think it's embedded in the very foundation of this nation. And so again, it's not surprising, but again, I think that's the part of the historic part that people wanna overlook is it's still playing out today. You can say, I don't believe a lie, but actually believe a lie by that your actions that you take.Danielle (22:58):And I would even go so far as to say I don't actually think they don't know the truth. I think that's letting people off hook. And I think they know it's a lie and they're like, But the lie feels good to me.So the lie feels so good. And also I actually know my ass is on the line. If we do this legal, I may not get reelected. So I have to find a quote legal way, Votes for me, and to eliminate certain populations from the likelihood that they can vote. Of the things I think Tiffany Cross could highlight, would highlight around this season. And people did not want the spotlight on Georgia, on Seattle, on places where there's inequities. Arizona, I've already theories coming from my own family, I'm like, Lord, have mercy have to mute you. I think they don't wanna hear that. So now you just have sson, right?Alethea (24:04):Yep, yep. I mean that's what, at the end of the day, people, it sounds good initially, but the reality is when you keep talking about it and you keep doing it, it's like, Oh, you actually meant what you said in 2020 that actually mattered two years later, you're still talking about it. Oh, we thought that would pass. So it was a convenience. It makes us look good as a network. It makes us look good to hire someone like Tiffany Cross to bring on a joy read or Simone Sanders. I think about these black women who have been brought on in particular to talk about one, to talk about the reality in part of black people in our country, among other people people of color among other marginalized groups. So they're not just highlighting black people. We're gonna highlight the marginalized communities in our nation because not enough people, Tucker Carlson's not talking about that me.Kelly's not talking about that. They're not talking about that stuff on Fox News. They're not talking about some of those things even on a CNN or something. So because it will increase your viewership, it's a smart move from a business standpoint. It's a smart move. And we have to check our box and say, Look, we're more diverse. We're trying to diversify what we have on cable news. But then you keep talking about it and you keep talking about it and you're like, Wait a second, I don't know where we actually weren't ready for that . And we can't take the heat that comes with that. Because part of what Tiffany was doing in her candidness and her brashness was msnbc, from what I've read, was taking heat because of things that she was saying on air. And they didn't want her to do that. And so at the end of the day, you get to a point where you're like, Well, we don't either like that, or we can't handle the heat that's coming with that.So yeah, we'll let Fox News do whatever they wanna do, but here we're just not gonna do that. We can't handle it. So instead of continuing to work with her and navigate some of that even, I would say let her be who she is as a journalist, as an reporter, whatever spot she's filling and letting her be that and being able to sit in the tension of the heat that's coming with that. Because the reality is, that's part of what is, I feel like as a person of color in this nation is there's going to highlight being a part of a marginalized community. We're gonna highlight the things that people don't wanna see, that people don't wanna talk about, that people don't wanna hear about. Because one, especially, and I can say too in a marginalized group, but part of there's privilege. I also hold, it's uncomfortable , so it's uncomfortable for people.I wonder how uncomfortable it is. People are like, Oh, well there's a black woman that's president at msnbc, you guys are missing the point. It's not just about that , right? It's so much deeper than that. It's so much greater than that. But there's a part of it, it's like it makes me uncomfortable, so I don't wanna deal with my discomfort, so I just remove it. I ignore it. Right? I minimize it. And that's part of, I think what happened with Tiffany too is because of the things that she would talk about. I don't believe it's just in the way that she said it. I don't believe that at all. , right? That that's an excuse to defend a decision. But I think it's because of what she highlighted and what she represented in that space that people outside of MSNBC didn't like it. So then it required MSNBC to do something and they had a choice. We can keep her and deal with it and deal with the tension that comes with that, but we really care about who she's targeting. We want people to engage, We need to talk about this. Or we can do what other people do, other companies, other organizations, other businesses and say, Hey, it was cool for a year or two, but you gotta go. Right,Danielle (27:33):Right. And what's your sense there? She was gaining power. If she didn't have power, that would be no threat, let's say.There's complaints because there's power in her voice. And I think that experience likely, I know that experience, when you begin to use your voice and it carries some weight, then people are like, Oh, I actually didn't want that. Would say something and people will listen.Alethea (28:01):. Yeah. I don't think people realize that that's what comes with giving someone access to a space . And your motive isn't genuine or, and you have deceived yourself to thinking that it is right, or it was genuine, but you did not understand the layers of that or what would come with that. And then it got flipped really quick because you actually weren't ready for that. And so I don't think people realize when you have someone like a Tiffany Cross who's existing in a space where there's not a lot of black women existing, and the Billy for her to use her voice in the way that she does, people are gonna listen to her people. I didn't watch her show, I just don't watch cable news like that. But I've watched clips and things of that nature on social media and I'm like, Man, she got some fireShe got some fire. And as a black woman who I feel like it can engage similarly, I might not be as brash, but I'm candid. I feel like I'm pretty candid. I hold back at times depending on the context, but I feel like I've come more into myself over the last few years. People start listening to you and then the people who are in the power positions above you are like, Wait a second, what's happening?People actually like this. Oh, people are actually supporting her. So now, because you weren't ready for that, because you didn't think about that, and because Tiffany did start getting some power in that space because people were listening to her and people appreciated how she engaged with space, what she talked about, what she sent, what she made central. You have other journalists and reporters bringing heat on msnbc, and it's gonna be hot for a little while. Tiffany's not gonna go away. Someone else will pick her up and she's out. I saw this morning on Instagram, she's out doing her thing, helping people with voting, making sure people are getting out to vote. But when you've got a Latasha Brown founder of Black Widows Matter, a Jemele Hill, a Simone Sanders, a Joy Reed jumping in quick to say stuff, you're gonna feel that. And that's what comes with it.(30:13):When you wanna take that away because you weren't prepared for what that person would represent and what would come with that, that's the consequence of it. But to your point, she was gaining power. I think that cuz people listen to her , it makes sense though. She was reaching a group that wasn't being reached, at least on msnbc. So it makes sense. But if your viewership is up, that means people are engaging for a reason. , you don't just become the second most watch show and all of America if people don't actually care to hear what you have to say.Danielle (30:44):And I think that's the thing, people don't want that powerful group in America to have a voice . And so it's led folks like us or Tiffany to find alternative ways to communicateAnd to go around mainstream media. I mean, you know, think about this liberal organization, and I often think of Seattle when I think of that. It's very similar on the outside. It's like shiny. It's blue. It's like, we got you. And then my friend, this elder in the community was telling me when the clan split in Oregon, the guy that came up to Seattle said, Well now I can just take my hood off and put a suit on. And I was like, that's true, right? Because we have this area, and even in our county where the indigenous lands were taken a close friend of mine had a Japanese family here and their land was taken and they were deported to a camp. And then that land is worth millions of dollars on the water . So whose voices do we remove? What history has been removed? And Tiffany embodies that, right? Yep. You said as a platform. And she embodies so much of that. And she's one particular race from one particular world, majority people's group. And that is scary The truth that she can tell about Florida. I mean, I read it, I won't repeat it here, but I was like, I don't disagree.Alethea (32:16):Hey, the truth doesn't feel good sometimes, but truth is truth. So ,Danielle (32:20):Right? And sometimes I think I felt, when I read that, I was like, man, I wish I would've heard her say it. And I, I'll go back and find the clip just because I think it feels refreshing to hear someone on the other side be candid about all the BS that we have to invest . And I can understand why she was the most watched or second most watched.Alethea (32:42):So , yeah, she said things in a way that maybe validated people, but it was refreshing in a sense of that it was just different. And I think that's been part of it too. I think about some other, a joy read for example, different some differences in how she would communicate compared to Tiffany. But again, people tune in to Joy Reed, Simone Sanders got her own show. So you see again this the diversity of even the black women that represent those spaces. So I think in multiple contexts, it's very refreshing to hear people who are not prioritized, who are not heard from often, who look different and sound different. To hear them talk in a way where you're like, Dang, you said that on cable news.You're actually gonna call it what it is. You're not gonna shy away. I mean, Trevor Noah, I think about him, for example, on a daily show, there's a reason people enjoy watching Trevor Noah is because again, he's gonna talk about things and be honest and be candid about some of those things and say, I mean, this is true. This is what it is. So again, it's not a popular voice from certain people,Danielle (33:56):But let's be clear, she said some of these comments on a separate podcast, and then she was that part Tucker Carlson's out here spewing garbage every single day on the platform.Alethea (34:09):Yeah, I heard that from what I read, the story around MSNBC is that, yeah, that was, I guess the cherry on top that got her contract not renewed was what she's done a podcast separate. Again, people would say, Well, she's representing the network. I hear that. But what I really think it was, was that she did not shy away from saying stuff in response to people like Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly who would publicly bash her on their shows publicly. They took Tiffany's name and drug it through the mud every single time they could. And so what I think was my opinion is MSNBC didn't like, while Tiffany would engage in that. And part of me is again, hey, people that are being beat down the most in society, we see it happening. But please don't ruffle feathers. Don't say nothing. I understand. I've navigated spaces being in a predo, predominantly white context where I've been told to minimize parts of who I am and not show up fully as I am because the people in the room can't handle it.They don't know what to do with it. You're gonna be viewed a certain way if you X, Y, Z. And so I've minimized parts of who I am to try to be in those spaces without being able to fully be myself. But it's okay for in the predominantly white spaces for the white folks to say and do as they please . And I just gotta take it. Someone's touching my hair, I, I'm just supposed to take it is what I'm told, what I've been told. Well, I'm not gonna do that anymore and I'm not gonna deal with their discomfort. Don't touch my hair. That's part of my body. You didn't ask me something as minor yet. Very significant as an example again. And so I think it was because Tiffany wasn't willing to be used in that way and to be talked about in the ways that she was being talked about.So in her humanity as a human to say, I will not let you talk about me like that. So I am gonna respond to you and you're gonna keep talking about me and I'm gonna keep responding to you. And I know that you think you can just get away with it and do whatever you want. But I'm gonna keep saying it because I am here and I can say it. And I think that's part of MSNBC couldn't handle what was coming back from that because of how she was attacking or responding to other news anchors who were coming for her neck every chance they could get. Which is wild to me. Wild to me, defending her from my understanding, doing nothing, saying nothing, saying, Hey Tucker, chill homie. Stop saying that about Tiffany saying none of that. So you guys expected her to get on the second most watch show in America and not say anything in response to the stuff that's being said about her. Make it make sense.Danielle (36:50):Yeah. I always, I struggle so much with this idea on the small level and on the big level of the bully can do whatever, and you're never supposed to respond. That just for me, it's always a struggle. It's a struggle with how to teach my kids how to deal with it, especially when there's no one to go to that can help them out. It's a struggle with clients I see in a system that's gonna continue to bully them. And I see it here. I know some people are like, Well, you know, just gotta take it like you said. And then at what point are you like, Yo, this is abuse.This is not just like, oh, you know, suck. This is repeated bullying, repeated hard behavior towards someone that's abusive and slandering. And you're right. Where was msnbc? That's their job.Alethea (37:43):. If you don't want her to respond to that, then it's your responsibility to protect your employees . So, because for me, it's like Tiffany is a human before she is any, she's a news anchor before she's a journalist. Yeah. She embodies all of those things. But she is a human first and foremost. And so I'm not saying you get on a cable news show and you just be cussing people out. I'm not saying do that. Okay, lemme be clear about what I'm saying here is she should be able to respond to the vitriol that's being thrown her way, the racism and the misogyny that's being thrown her way, especially as a black woman in a space of journalism and reporting and a news anchor that that's not common. There's not a lot of women of color women, but then women of color in particular and then black women. And so you have to understand the dynamics that are at play there. And to expect her to show up every weekend and not say anything and you not do anything to protect her or have her back. I think they did her dirty. And at the same time I'm like, Tiffany, go somewhere else. Right?Cause you will get picked up. Go somewhere else where you will be supported, where you won't have to show up every weekend and defend yourself because the people that hired you and supposed to have your back. So go somewhere else, girl. Cause you won't get picked up. Go somewhere else.Danielle (39:14):Right? I mean, I don't wanna linger too long on this, but just to even bring up the point of the tack on Paul Pelosi, the kind of rhetoric from Tucker and these other pundits, it's actually violent. Yes. This is not just a racial slur, just anything. This is actually inspiring these nationalists to go and take physical action against other people. I mean, we're talking about mental distress and I'm not invalidating that. But this is physically dangerous for people. And so his attacks are actually inciting violence towards her body, not just that emotional, mentalBut there's the potential, and I'm sure the very real physical threat to her and to people like you and me who walk about and tell the truth. And so I do think that we have to stand for one another and it's important. Yes. Cause the threat is not just, I don't wanna say just, but it is mental emotional, but it also physical threat.Alethea (40:14):Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm so glad you named that too because again, the way of our society is right now, it doesn't take much. You have someone who literally said, You can't say that because I'm telling you, I don't tell the truth. And people are like, And we like watching you and we believe that you, and you just told us you lie. You have to do some crazy mental gymnastics to get to a point of believing someone who literally said, I don't tell the truth. That's wild to me. But because of the way our society is right now, where you're getting stuff, you're hearing so much from we have access to everything, all the sound bites, all the things. And so you're getting this constant leap fed in. And so yeah, Tiffany's having to navigate showing up at work every weekend and saying, Okay, here's what they said about me.Here's what I gotta respond to. Here's what I prep for. While I'm also trying to highlight what people of color in other marginalized communities are navigating in our political season. I gotta hold both. It's already distressing. Now I gotta hold both of these every weekend. And then because of the things that are being said, and we see the attack on Paul Pelosi knowing they were coming for Nancy Pelosi, what happened? They were going to kidnap the governor of Michigan. What? Gretchen Whitmer is that her name. Because of things that were said about her people said, Oh, we're gonna kidnap her. So now her physical body is in danger, right? Because people don't like, cuz she's liberal or progressive and so we need to take some physical action, not just demean her. Cuz it's not enough to do that. It's not enough to get on social media and say some really crazy things about people. We're actually gonna respond in a physical way. And we're seeing that all over when you tell a lie that there's voter fraud and people have believed this lie and internalized it like Georgia and Arizona and some of these other states, people cheated the election. The election was wrong. The results were wrong two years ago, . So you know what? We're actually gonna show up and threaten people at the polls. It happened in Arizona last week. Yep. I'm actually nervous about what it's been like in certain places of Georgia today because of the fear that is stoked by people like a Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly and others.There's so many other of them. But it turns into not just seeing your point, not just some emotional and mental distress, but it's a physical, I'm now feeling that in my body and I have to leave my job. I'm going to go vote in person because in Georgia it's really hard to vote with your mail in because of the rotor suppression bill. So now, now I really need to go in person. Cause I don't know if you actually get my vote if I mail it in. So now there's more potential harm to me as a black and brown person in the state to show up at the polls. Cause I have no idea what I'm gonna encounter. Because a bunch of people believe there was a lie from two years ago and they wanna incite violence to scare people. It's a whole nother layer. That's why we are, I love the work that you do.And what some of I've been learning over the last year or so is the body work. It's to be connected to our bodies. And I can only imagine what it's been like for Tiffany over the last year with what she's had to endure in a very public way. , you're the second most watched show on the weekend. It's a very public thing. And then you add in social media and all of those things. , I can only imagine what it's been like for her to leave MSNBC every day that she had to go there and just go about her day. Cuz people recognize her. People know her face, they know her voice. They know her name. So there's an added distress to that. We hold in our bodies as women, as people of color in this very crazy, violent society that we live inDanielle (43:58):That breath. I mean honestly. Right? I mean, think over the next weeks we're all gonna be holding our breath And for good reason. I mean, I think what's so telling about Tiffany is just that it could be any of us and it has been any of us in different systems in different places. And actually know that the truth is you don't actually have to be crass You don't have to be radical or far left. You can actually just say, Hey, I think Kitsap County has a racism problem. And people, No. Right. Just what you're talking about with voter suppression in Georgia, you can actually say something small people agree on For dominant culture. And then that can get you canceled or get you in or get you taken away from a position or power or you're an extremist or et cetera.Alethea (45:12):. Yep. That's actually why I wore my stay woke shirt today. Oh yeah, . Cause I, I knew we were gonna be recording, so I had to, even with that, I saw someone on Instagram, Jasmine Holmes the other day talked about how she gets labeled being so woke in her comment section or something when she's highlighting history. She's a history teacher, researcher. That's what she does. And she recite her sources all the things. But she's woke because she said, Hey, don't just listen to this black voice. Let me highlight all these other black voices that talked about slavery. But now I'm woke because I just gave you some history. So we joke there, some of the comments joking about how we take it as a compliment. Now. That's part of, I think what we do too, I think as people of color is we take the things and we have to turn it into some kind of joke or something like that. So we don't take the intensity of that with everything. Cause there's just so much of it. But yeah, it doesn't say, Man, that was racist. Gosh, you're so woke. I hope so. .Danielle (46:32):My night or whatever. So you feel like, what are your takeaways then around this time of year? Or what are the things you hold onto?Alethea (46:44):Good question. I think to answer what do I hold onto? I think for me it's part of it is my faith. My faith is what grounds me. My faith is also what puts me into action. And so when I think about the scriptures, when I think about Jesus embodied, right, walking this earth what did Jesus care about? The poor scriptures saw about the orphan, the poor, the widow, the oppress, the immigrant, the foreigner, the least of these, the poor, All of that's highlighted. And so for me, when I think about election season for me it's helpful as I'm thinking through who, who's running, More and more people are being educated around voting. So I think the more that people are being educated about policy, about what matters in your local and your state and federal, that more people are gonna start wanting to get engaged in policy politics for the good and for the bad.So mindful of that but because we're learning more and understanding more, for me, my faith should move me to action in a way that I am able to hold the complexity of a politician and to know that no one politician stands for. I feel like everything I have conviction around or what I may believe in. So if I hold that view, that means I'm not gonna vote, right? Because I'm gonna be conflicted about every person. And so for me, as I even just went to vote on Friday last day of really voting here in Georgia. I did my research and for me, man, I wanna vote in a way, am I voting in a way that's going to center those who do not hold privilege like I do. When I think about the people here in Georgia, myself included. And so am I voting in a way where I can say that person, I don't agree with Stacy Abrams on every matter.I don't cosign everything just cuz she's a black woman. We don't land in the same place in every way. But for me, with the things that she is going after and wanting to do as governor and the power that holds and who she's working for and her vision, I'm voting for her over Brian Kim . Cause I don't believe Brian Kim has the interest of those who are marginalized in our community. The second, there are two trauma centers in Atlanta. Atlanta Medical Center closed last, I think last week was last day. There's only one trauma center in Atlanta now Kim. And that one had been there forever. And this happened under Brian Kim, where the Atlanta Medical Center is in the old fourth ward. While it is gentrifying, because what city is not being gentrified right now, it's still that population. It was, it's an underserved, it's a lower income, predominantly black area.And that close, that served a significant population of people. Grady is downtown. So now people have to travel a bit further. And so I think about things like that. So Stacey is not perfect. I don't agree with her on every policy and position she holds. But Stacey, to me, I can say as I think about my faith in expressing that there are things that she is going after that I can get behind. And there are things that I can say, I don't agree with her and I can try to hold what does accountability look like? So I feel like for me, reminded that there's a long game here that I can't put all my faith or X one basket type of deal with who wins the election, who does it What does that mean for me? No matter who's elected, there's a responsive for me as a citizen, as a neighbor, as a friend as a follower of Jesus, what do I do tomorrow?What do I do on Thursday? What do I do on Friday? What do I do next week? What do I do in the next four years? Those things matter. So for me, I think for me, what do I hold onto to answer your question is did I do my homework, ? Did I do what I needed to do within my conscious and from where my faith grounding me? Did I act in a way that I can with clarity, say I feel really good about this decision and I can be really clear on don't, I'm not putting any of my value or worth in any political party because I really don't fit in either. And so that's been helpful for me the last few years to understand that. And so how do I live in a way where I vote and yet to say, and also say I don't agree with everything, but there's more here that I can align to than in other spaces.So again, I think for me, my faith is not in a politician or a party. And so I can have clarity around that and some freedom there. And then to know there's a responsibility for me after November 8th and make sure I do that. And I continue to live in that way. So for me is what I feel like I've learned over the last few years in election seasons. There's been so many. I feel like 20 18, 20 20 and 2022. It's like this two year cycle of intense 16, 16, 18, 20 22. This intensity of elections every two years. So I feel like I've learned quite a bit over. I'm a different, I feel like I engage it differently six years later than I did in 2016. Cause there was just so much I didn't know six years ago. And what I put my hope in, what I put my faith in, I feel like it has shifted immensely.And so I engage my civic duty. I posted this morning, I got to meet Mr. George Sally, he's 93 years old. I got to meet him in Selma Montgomery where we were together after our trip in August. And I posted about that this morning on my Instagram. And I said, on election day, I'm reminded of courageous people like George Sally who survived bloody Sunday and March 50 plus miles so that I could live out my right as a citizen and my engage, my civic duty and the privilege I have to vote. I recognize that. And so for me, that's also what I hold onto is as a black woman, I carry a responsibility that my ancestors so many did not get to do when they should have. They had every right as a citizen to vote. And they were not allowed to do that. And while that same is under attack, I still have more access and ability to vote that they did not have that George Sally didn't have in the sixties that he was fighting for.And so for me, I also carry that with me, is to say it matters today, but it matters cuz of who those came before me. And I wanna honor, I honor that. I wanna honor Mr. George Sally, I wanna honor John Lewis from Atlanta. I wanna honor Afeni Lou Hamer. I wanna honor Shirley Chisholm. I wanna honor the black women and black men that are not named that I will never know, but who died trying to exercise their right to vote even in this very state. And so I hold onto that as well. That matters to me immensely. To not minimize that or overlook that in this time. And to know what they were fighting for granted me a right that I should have had. So I need to carry that legacy and say, what is it that I'm gonna continue to fight for so that when I look back, people look back at whatever amount of years, whether my name or not, I'm a part of that continued legacy of fighting for rights that we should have as citizens and just as people. Mm-hmm. ,Danielle (54:13):As I listen, I'm just aware of the way you have a gift of seeing people and their stories and the gift that you have to step in with truth and with honor for your ancestors and the work you're called to do now. And so I'm guessing that that's part of what you're doing with D Ei B . Like I wonder if you can own the B And I feel that in your communication, maybe you don't have the research of the technical term of it, but it is something I experience of you as a person and even in this conversation How do people find you? How do they find your work? How do they know what you're up to? I know you have your own podcast. I've listened to it.Alethea (55:00):. Yeah. Well first Danielle, thanks for Yeah, yeah, thanks. What you just said, that's very meaningful to me and I hold that and I appreciate that a lot. I think it's really important to name things for people that we may not see in ourselves or that I tend to overlook. So I appreciate you. Yeah, just naming that. So thank you. Yeah. I on You can find me on Instagram. I am not on Twitter for good reason now, but I haven't been on Twitter. I haven't been active on Twitter in a year. I took a break when I was on sabbatical last summer, and then when I tiptoed back in I was like, Oh, I don't wanna be here. And so I just deactivated my account though with the new Elon Musk take over and the crap show I'll say. But that has been so, I was like, I don't even want anything represented.So I am no longer on Twitter. I love Twitter, but Twitter is too crazy right now. And I value my piece. So I'm on Instagram Leaf 14 l E A t h 14. That's my IG handle. You can find me on there. That's really where I occupy on social media. I have a TikTok, but I don't post anything public. It's all private. And then I share it from there, . So yeah, you can find me there. And then, yeah Danielle, you just said I cohost a podcast. It's called The Roll Down. It is on, I think, so many different, It's on Apple, Spotify. I didn't even know this, but it's on Google Podcast too. Not many people listen on there, but you can. Yeah, Apple and Spotify, it's there. Season one, we had 18 episodes. I co-host out with Matthew Melindres, one of my dear friends.The roll down we say is a space where people of color to be known and seen and guidance for those in the pursuit of justice. And we are finally, after a long delay we are getting going with recording for season two. So be on the lookout for that. Subscribe, download, all the things. We really appreciate it. The podcast has been such a gift for Matthew and I in ways that we did not anticipate and super encouraging. So we, we've gotten the texts or dms. When are y'all coming back? When are y'all coming back? When can we expect season two? So it's coming, coming finally. I actually have things on my calendar this week to record. So yeah, the roll down podcast, you can find me there too. But yeah, feel free to dme. I like engaging with people. So yeah, y'all can hit me up, but that's where I'm atDanielle (57:28):This person list. I'm like, I want Alicia in my space working with my community, my business. You're doing DEI work. So is that possible through Instagram or is there an email that people should reach out to you for?Alethea (57:41):Yeah, I would say right now just DME on Instagram. That way I can yeah, connect that way. Yeah, because of where I left, I have more freedom to engage in the work that I feel called to do. And so I can doke some contract work, things of that nature. Consulting is something I feel like I'm really gifted at and I love helping people see things that they don't see and move forward in a better way. And to really understand how do you understand yourself as a person and then as a leader. So if you're an individual wanting some stuff or if you're a team, you lead a team and you're just trying like, how do I love my team better? How do I engage these conversations in a way that's meaningful? A lot of DEI work. There's actually a book that just came out today d e I deconstructed that I'm really excited to get to read.I saw her on LinkedIn. Lily Zang I think is, I might be, I probably mispronouncing her last name. Z H E N G I believe. But she is a DEI consultant. She talks about how a lot of DEI work, people don't realize it, significance of it, and they're actually not ready for a lot of what they say they want. And so stuff falls through or they aim for something. And so for me as a consultant, I wanna say, what's, what are you trying to achieve and how do we get there? And then actually follow up and coach people along the way. I love coaching people too. So yes, hire me. I love this type of work. Got some credentials and I'm getting some more and just continue. I think I feel equipped in what I'm doing too. So yeah, hit me up on Instagram and yeah, we can go from there.

Akuyea Karen Vargas: source (https://www.tidelandmag.com/articles/2022-03-a-warrior-for-peace)(photo credit:  Nora Phillips)"Vargas may be small in stature, but the 59-year-old mother of three is a towering presence in the West Sound's African American community. An army veteran, community activist, arts educator, youth mentor and historian, she has been a tireless advocate for the young and underserved, and for healing racial divisions in our communities for over 25 years.After growing up on the East Coast and serving in the Army, Vargas arrived here in 1992 when her husband was assigned by the Navy to the Bangor submarine base. Raising her three Black children in the overwhelmingly white Bainbridge schools was a rude awakening, Vargas recalls. Advocating for her own children in the school system led her to start advocating for other children of color. Eventually she joined the district's Multicultural Advisory Committee, which she co-chairs to this day.Through two programs she founded in 2003, the Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project and Living Life Leadership, Vargas has taught cultural history and life skills to hundreds of youth throughout Kitsap County, including many of the young leaders who spoke at those demonstrations in 2020.Recognizing her contributions, Governor Jay Inslee bestowed Vargas a 2021 Governor's Arts and Heritage Award in the new category of Luminaries, honoring people who “stood as shining lights for their community during the pandemic.” Commenting on the award, Sheila Hughes, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Museum of Art, described Vargas as “a trusted advisor… as well as a great friend who has a genuine laugh and a huge hug just when you need one.”Multicultural Advisory Committee Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project and Living Life Leadership2021 Governor's Arts and Heritage AwardDanielle (00:35):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on race, faith, justice, gender and healing. And as many of you know or aware, I mean it's election season. It's election day. And whether we're voting today, we already voted. Maybe some of us cannot vote for various reasons in our communities. This is an important time in the nation and it has been an important time for many years. I think back to 20 16, 20 18, 20 20. And now we're in 2022 and we're still working through what does it mean to exercise this right to vote? What does it mean? What is impacting our communities? What things are important? And today I had a Coyier, Karen Vargas of Kitsap County. She is an elder. She is on the Multicultural Advisory Committee for our county. She is living arts cultural heritage, founded the Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project and Living Life Leadership. She has taught cultural history and life skills to hundreds of youth throughout Kitsap County and including many of the young leaders who spoke at demonstrations in 2020. Ms. Vargas is concerned about the impact of what Covid did. She is deeply invested. And in 2021, the governor of Washington, Jay Insley, bestowed on Vargas an arts and heritage award in the category of luminaries honoring people who stood as shining lights for their community during the pandemic. And someone that commented on the award, Sheila Hughes, the executive director of the Bainbridge Island Museum of Art, described Vargas as a trusted advisor as well as a great friend who has a genuine laugh and a huge hug for just when you need one. So as you think about listening tune in and hopefully keep an open mind to the conversation. So it's just an honor to join forces Akuyea (02:51):, what we need to be doing. We have done tremendous work together for many years back from the Civil Rights Movement and even before we were working in a collective collaborative way to address the issues that affect all of our communities. And so the more we can do that, the more we can cultivate that, I think we can begin to do some impactful work that will move things forward. Danielle (03:24):And I love the way we got connected. It happened at church. Yeah, I saw you at a couple events before that, but then you were speaking to church and I saw the post on Instagram. I was like, I told my family we're going to church today, I know. So we showed up and we made this connection around youth and mental health. Would you be able to speak to that a little bit? Akuyea (03:50):Yes. Our children are not doing well, let's just start there. Our children are having a difficult time. They're dealing with trauma, they're dealing with depression, they're dealing with anxieties, just dealing with life and they don't know how or what to do. In 2019, I had one of my living life leadership students take her own life and it devastated me the way she did it. She ran in the middle of a highway, sat down and allowed car to run over her. And what I still mean, the actual act devastated our students, our parents, her friends, the school. And we have to address some of the issues because we knew before that time that she was struggling with her mental health and with depression and all these things. And so what do we do when we, when actually know we are aware that our students have social and emotional stuff and trauma and stuff? Pauses. Because she was struggling with her meds too. She said those medications made her feel all wacky And then she was telling me some of the medication that she said would cause depression. I said, Well, why you on medication? It's gonna cause depression or anxiety. And so we need to have a conversation. We need to be talking about it. And we need to be talking about it from multiple issues, not just with the parents or the students or with the schools, but for the health and wellbeing of that young person. Should we be prescribing all this medication? They don't know the chemical imbalances. I'm not sure. That's not my field . But to be able to help them to process some of all of this , we really need to be talking more about the mental health of our young people. We have to do it. Danielle (06:43):I mean, first I'm stunned and not stunned because death of young, of the young is always shocking. And I'm aware that it's also I'm angry and sad that also it is not surprising. And I think you named the year as 2019. So this was even before a pandemic. Akuyea (07:12):Before the pandemic. So I know that we were dealing with this way before the pandemic. And only God can tell you The depth of all of that during and even now the results of the pandemic in the state of our young people's health, mental health, especially their mental health. Danielle (07:40):I think one thing that struck me when I spoke to you after that church service was the fact that I began to tell you stories of my own children at school. And you were like, I got into advocacy because of my kids. And it's not that I wasn't paying attention before I had kids experiencing it, but it becomes heightened alert, heightened awareness, and just even watching the depression cycle through my own family cycle, through my friend's kids on multiple levels. I mean from depression to anxiety to suicidal ideation to self harm, to just the lack of ability to pay attention or find interest like you described the hopelessness. And so just the heightened awareness. And then we were talking about schools and this and we are now post 2020, George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd by police, the multiple other lynchings that happened in that year. And we're back. We're actually talking on election day and the impact this has on students of color and their mental and frankly white bodied students too. This is not just a one section of society's problem, this is a larger issue. Akuyea (09:05):And the role of social media plays in their isolation and just being focused on what I call the device and not engaging and not having those healthy social skills and not being able to sit down in a room and just have a conversation. Being in rooms plenty enough time that our students are talking to one another, sitting right next to one another. And that's about, they don't want us to know what they're talking about. I know what that's about too. Let's not play. We don't know what that's about too. But when you ask them to sit down and just let's talk, they act like they don't do it. They don't know what to do. . And I think we are losing how to engage personally and how to have healthy relationships personally. One, we were doing some conflict. I can remember we were doing some conflict resolution and someone had advised, and I won't say the name, someone had advised, Well let's do this on Zoom. I said, Wait, wait, wait. , you know, can be brave at a distance, but you need to come into a circle . And you need to be able to look the individual in their eye. . You need to be able to see their body language and to be able to feel what's happening in the environment. . I said there are elements that when you are moving to do conflict resolution or healing and peacemaking, that that's done in a , intimate in an environment where those can come together. . And I understand Zoom has been a good tool in everything , but I also know social media and zoom, give your balls that you don't have when you sitting in front of somebody and you got to be accountable for some harm that you have done. , you feel safe because you know what, You can say what you want to say and you can do all of that. Because you know what? I'm just on a zoom , I'm over here , I can be brave over here. Could you stand before the individual and confront some mess that go down But if we're going to get to a place of healing and reconciliation, you have to be able to step into that Because the bottom line, if I got conflict with you and you got conflict with me and we can say all we can be on social media calling each other, boom, bam, bam, bam, bam. When, and this happened with some of our students too. , when they confronted each other, one of them stabbed the other one to death. Now all of that hostility was allowed over the social media to be able to do all that. Building up, texting. I'm coming over, I'm gonna kick your tail. And Danielle (13:19):I think you bring up something that I'm thinking about Aku, which is not only do we need to, we can't intervene on our students behalf unless we as caregivers, parents, community members, adults in the community are willing to do the work first. Gonna smell it a mile away. Yes. They're gonna know if we haven't done the work ourselves. AKuyea (13:46):Let tell you about our young people. They are the best hustlers learners. And they, they're watching us And they say, Oh yeah, they ain't about it. They ain't about it now. In fact, they're learning from us We are their first teachers. . They know when we talk trash and they sitting over here. That's why all of this stuff is coming up in our schools. You've got all of these racist ideologies coming out. The students are listening to their parents in their home talking yang yang and saying, Oh no, we ain't doing this. Yeah. Them negros in, Oh this, that, all of that racists ideology at home. And when the students, they're ear hustling, they say, Oh no, my parents, no. And giving them the green light, they come to school and guess what? They feel em bolded and empowered to say and do what they want. Because guess what? Those parents have modeled it for 'em and modeled it for them very well. . And they feel like they can say what they want. Their parents got their back Even the teachers come to school with racist ideologies, . And it pours out on students of color. When you got staff and teachers calling students the N word and it's okay, going on, something's very wrong with that picture . But yet here we find ourselves in 2022 So we've got all kinds of dynamics happening, but popping off in the schools Danielle (15:51):So we can't be people as community members, adults, people that wanna see change in progress from whatever lens you're coming from. We cannot be people that say, Hey, let's have peace. If we're not gonna be willing to have that conversation in our own homes, Because our kids will go into schools which they are doing and they will enact what we're doing in our private lives. They'll continue to perpetuate it. So we have to be people about what we do in our private lives is what we do. What privately happens is publicly is publicly congruent. Akuyea (16:34):Oh, I'm glad you said that. Because what's done in the dark will come to life. Danielle (16:39):It will. Akuyea (16:40):And it does. And it manifests itself. We look at the attitude and the behavior and the character of our young people . And we're saying, Okay we're dealing with some stuff. And I hear me say this, I pray and I commend our teachers. Our teachers have to deal with whole lot of stuff . But when they were looking at the condition of the learning environment in our schools and they understood that they had to train their teachers with having trauma, they have to train the teachers to look at diversity, equity, and inclusion. They have to teach our kids. So when they started introducing social emotional learning, I said that was social, emotional and cultural learning. Why in the world did you take off culture? Culture is an ideology as well. . You bringing in these cultural elements and cultural, what I said, behaviors, It's not all just about, They said, Oh no, we don't wanna, That's a race. I said, No . What culture we have in our schools. The culture that we have in our school is very unhealthy. That's an unhealthy culture. . And what are the cultures that are manifesting in our schools? There's a culture of what I would call hatred going on in our school. . Oh, culture of bullying. They did a whole thing for years of bullying. Well, what culture were you deal. You have a culture of unhealthy behavior and bullying going on in your school. They always get all squeamish and fear all culture that has just to do with race. And I come from a culture and you come from a culture and everyone that steps themselves into those environments come from a culture Danielle (19:17):I love what you're saying because don't get me wrong. I wanna do this work of anti-racism. Yes. I learned from the president of my grad school Dr. Derek McNeil. He said, Anti-racism is enough for us to say, Hey, stop that. Stop the harm. But where we find healing is within our cultures, In our cultures. You got Mexican culture, you got Irish, you got I'm You got African culture, there's a lot of cultures we could be learning from to bring healing. If we change and we try to operate under the social Akuyea (19:54):That's right. Because think it European Western culture here in this United States. Danielle (20:01):And if we operate under the idea that no, it's just a melting pot or we're just whitewashed, we miss the particularities that cultures can bring us that also don't bring harm. They also bring healing. Akuyea (20:14):One of, you know what, I'm glad you said that. It's not a melting pot. The United States is not. One of the things that Bishop Lawrence Ray Robinson taught us is that we are a salad bowl. We come in with distinctive things within that salad. The onion is the onion. It doesn't lose itself in there. The tomato is the tomato. The lettuce is the lettuce. The broccoli, if you wanted to throw it in there, is broccoli. You know what I'm saying? How I'm the peppers are the peppers, the olives are the olives. Very distinctive. But they come together to have a beautiful, wonderful salad . And each of them bring a distinctive flavor to that salad bowl. . Now when we think of a melting, we're talking about what are we a melting pot? What does that even mean? ? We haven't even examined our own terminology and our own languaging. That can be very confusing. Cause a melting pot means everybody gotta assimilate in that pot. Danielle (21:35):. So I think about this and I think it comes back to our young people. They're smart enough to know what we've been doing isn't working and they're also picking up on what we're leading by example in They're doing the same as us or they're trying to do something different. But I think what you and I were talking about, we need some other frameworks here. This is a crisis. Oh Some action steps. Let's have some frameworks for our community because we are not trying to have a school shooting here. Right? Danielle (22:14):We are ripe. And that is very alarming. We hear about all of these school shootings and atrocities that's happening across our nation and all of these things that are popping off and other countries and everything. But honey, this Kitsap County, I have always said, let us do some intervention and prevention because we don't wanna be on the national news for the atrocities that could be committed in our community. And I can say this, we are no better than any other community. And it can happen here. It can happen Anywhere else. . And that's real because guess what the signs are telling , What is popping up and manifesting in our communities is telling and the unhealthy behavior and activities that have been manifesting is really alarming. And we should be paying attention. And our community is only gonna be as healthy as we are and we're not. Speaker 2 (23:33):Right. There's a high level of depression, a high level of anxiety high level of despair across our adult communities in the area. There's a great Danielle (23:48):There's a great amount of actually division in our community. And I don't think that that division is necessarily wrong. Now listen to me because It tells you where you're at If you say, Oh, we're so divided, let's just come together. I have to say, Wait a minute, let's find out why we're divided. Maybe there's some good reasons. And once we know the reasons, then there's opportunity to tell a more true story about Kitsap County. And through the true story, hopefully we can move towards some reconciliation and understanding. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's gonna benefit our youth. So I don't think it's like, Oh, just throw your kids in mental health therapy. No, you need to be doing the work too. Akuyea (24:38):Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you said that because one of the things that I've been just kind of thinking of is, what does that even look like? What does truth and reconciliation even look like? And I said, Well, you can't get there if you're not willing to acknowledge The history, acknowledge the culture that's here in our county that has been prevalent here for hundreds of years. Kensett County is a very racist county. Very. If you're not willing to say that, that's a problem. If you're not willing to look at that history here, cross-bar, even lynchings even, you better understand when we talking about the history, the taking of land, all of that. If we go back just to the late 18 hundreds early In this county, we would better know how to move equity forward in our community. But because we're not willing, Oh, everything's tucked under the rug and things that have happened, Oh, those things have been erased. . I can remember that back when I first got here in the nineties, it was a lot of work going on with Raymond Reyes and with Jean Medina and Theor. There was a lot of racist behavior with a lot of ill behavior a lot of what I would call racist ideologies in our school districts at the North end that was manifest. But it was at the south end too. It was in the Mason counties. It was all over. But we were dealing with it here at the north end, the SaaS drive and kids at school district, the Banbridge Island School District they were coming together cuz they had to deal with all the stuff that was popping off in the schools. . And I can remember they formulated common threads and once Jean Medina retired, it was like all those years of work just went away. Bam. And it came straight back. What did that say to me is that racism was alive and well and has always been alive and well in Kitsap County, . And if we're not intentionally addressing it and calling it out, it will continue to manifest and grow. We have to begin to hold the schools and our community accountable for the behavior that, because otherwise what I see is you just give them a green light. You give these young people a mind that okay behavior that that's acceptable. Oh, I can go to school and say, Oh, because that's the culture that breeds here. Danielle (28:19):Right? I mean, you reminded me of some of the history. I actually have a friend who grew up as a child in this area on La Molo on the waterfront, a Japanese American family. They were removed from their house prime property and they were deported to a internment camp and they lost their land right on the Molo. And now when I drive by that piece of property, it's worth millions of dollars. Akuyea (28:50):All I'm saying, right, The removal. And she's not the only one. The removal of native individuals off their own lands, And not, let me say it like this. In the 1920s, they held one of the largest in Seattle. They held a lot of their meetings right here on Bay Bridge Island on Pleasant Beach Back in 1992. When I got here, they were all up in the uproar talking about why did the clan target island? Well it wasn't until I did research later that I found out the history. They have strongholds here. They have headquarters camps all over Kitsap County, . If you do look at Chuck's report, he works with the Human Rights Council. He has done research about the entire region here and the headquarters and where white supremacists and Klan members and all of them set up their headquarters and kids that . So we need to understand the history that has thrived here for over a hundred years , and understand that that culture is alive and well. in Kitsap County, Danielle (30:46):Cause if we tell a false history, we can't actually heal the wound. Akuyea (30:50):It won't be able to. You gotta know your history, good, bad, and ugly. You got to know your history. And let me say this, there are regions that have deep history. If you go down to Mississippi and Alabama, Oh those are strong holes. , Virginia. And guess what? This northwest got stronghold too. . And we act like, oh no, not here, But that's a false narrative. when they left the south back after slavery, they came here to formulate a new frontier. A new frontier in Oregon and in Seattle in this north, deep roots in this northwest. And if we don't even know that history, we are just, we're fooling ourselves into thinking, Oh no, not here. Not in the northwest. We're not like Alabama. I said, But after the Civil War, they came and set up roots here. Strong roots, You don't think so. You better check your history. Danielle (32:30):And I think we can be lulled to sleep because people will say, Well you got a democratic governor and you got a Democratic senator and you vote unquote blue. But we both know that being blue doesn't mean you're telling something true. Akuyea (32:48):Honey, let me tell you what one of the Klan masters said he was taking off his, when he left, it was a split in Oregon. And when he left Oregon and came to Seattle, he said he was taking off his hood and he was putting on a suit He went and got those jobs, started setting policy, started working in government, law enforcement all over. So don't think just because they don't have the hood that they're still not working in those ideologies. Danielle (33:36):, I mean as you've named in Kitsap County, the idea of manifest destiny has been repeated over and over. And we see it in some of the ways that even the county commissioners have ran and used. I'm thinking of one county commissioner that owns land that therefore wants to create housing resource. And the danger of that. And Danielle (34:05):If you don't think it's entrenched and institutionalized, you better think again. If you don't think it's in our systems, you better think again because those systems were created by those individuals. We have to understand the legacy of that as well. , we've got a lot of work to do. I, I can tell you, I don't know everything, but I'm sure willing to research and learn Oh no. We never move out of hopelessness. We are people of hope. We are as human beings. We are people of hope. We always hope for the better. We hope for the son to shine. We hope that we have a good dinner tonight. We are steeped in hopefulness . And for us to operate out of hopelessness is, we ought not to even perpetuate that Because hope is in our dna. is part of our being. You hope your children will do well. you hope you find a good husband. you hope you find someone that can love you the way you wanna be loved. No, we, that's in our DNA to be hopeful, . And when we start being hopeless or working hopelessness, what happens is we start to decline depression and all these other things begin to come into our lives. And oh, it filled with anxiety. When you remove hope from someone's life, then you know what they spiral to that place that they commit self-harming and harm others as well. So no, we don't wanna move outta hopelessness . And we wanna talk about that need. You have to empower our young people to understand we don't move in hopelessness, I even tell a kid, you hope you get an ice cream. Oh yeah, they want that. Yeah, , we can build hope, we can cultivate that. We can begin to push back on hopelessness Danielle (37:05):And I think the way we do that is, it's this funny thing. If you're from a dominant culture and your culture wins by not telling a true story . And it can feel that if you tell the true story or what's behind the curtain, that you will be plunged into despair. And let me say this, you should grieve and be sad and be angry at that history behind the curtain. That is not bad for you. It is And then that will enable you to take small steps to help your young person with a white body Be able to learn to hold history and hold making change. Akuyea (37:52):And what when we continue to perpetuate lies and perpetuate harmful history, we have to do some self examination going on with us that we wanna keep holding this harmful history in place here. What? What's going on with us as human beings that we would want to perpetuate harm on any individual because they're different than I am. They come from somewhere a different, they have a different culture. They talk different . Why do we always go to that place? Danielle (38:56):I think we can learn so much from what happened in different places in the world and how they subject and no one's done it perfectly. Cuz there's not a perfect way to do it. It's messy. But I think of my friend from Germany who's talked about learning about the Holocaust and her family's involvement in the Nazi regime. Family has worked with their own shame and worked to change their attitude towards the Jewish peoples there in Germany and the fighting of that nationalism. And then I think of the conflict in Rwanda and how yes, now be currently neighbors with someone where hoot season and Tutsis that they were formerly enemies. Blood enemies. So it's not that this hasn't been done, but in both those spaces you see that there's memorials to the harm that was done in Germany. Akuyea (39:53):That's exactly right. That's exactly right. They moved. And that's important. They move their nation into addressing the harms that had been perpetuated and those atrocities that had been done. And they had to move their entire nation and the globe into acknowledging and moving those families into a place of healing And that work that was deep work But we've not done that deep work here. Danielle (40:35):No, we haven't. And then we see our young people in despair and acting out the same fights. And then we have the gall to say, Well what's wrong with you Akuyea (40:51):Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And we've gotta take a pause and look at ourselves because we've gotta examine ourselves in this . We can't point fingers. We have to begin to be accountable for the harms that we have done here in our own country. , we wanna always say, Oh well that was Germany and oh that was Africa. That was over in Asia. What about what happened on this soil? You exterminated the entire indigenous population. . There are tribes we'll never see again. Think about that. And have we even addressed those atrocities, All of the souls that was lost during the trans-Atlantic slave trade that didn't even reach the shores. And if the sea could give up her dead, she could tell a story. But yet we don't wanna step into that harmful history. We don't wanna acknowledge that harmful history. We don't wanna talk about, Oh, don't teach my child how in school this critical race theory thing. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't dig that up. Don't bring that up And I said, Well what's the pushback on telling whole history Danielle (43:02):And I think from a Latino Latinx perspective, there has to be the acknowledgement of the anti-blackness in our culture.Affects our sisters and brothers in the communities of color outside of us. I hate from Latinos. And what's interesting, all those mixtures are part of what makes a Latino Akuyea (43:31):Thank you. That's why I said, Oh, we have to understand we're where we come from our history. Cause that's where the work begins. Danielle (43:41):And then the xenophobia Cultivated. And I think what is important about knowing this history for me, because then I have to say, and I'm Oh, I'm gonna die in shame. I'm some shame. But it's a way for me to say, how do I build connection with you then Akuyea (44:03):I wish Carrie was on here because we work with our equity sisters and we've worked with our Kitsap race and for a whole year we were doing aging our voices and speaking truth together with our Kitsap serves. Those Europeans showing up for racial justice and all of us. And coming together, it was the coming together to be able to talk about some hard things and for them to be able to hear and for us to be able to hear, for us to be able to share our experiences and our voices and be able to put it down and be able for them to say, I'm feeling like Harry would say, Am I in denial here? Is this implicit? Buy it, what's going on? But to do that self, that type of self evaluation and be able to stay in that space when it was very uncomfortable, to deal with some hard history And so those are transformational, engaging opportunities and experiences that we've got to bring to the table. That's real truth and reconciliation, . That's the layer of foundation to be able to move forward and be able to heal and be able to reconcile and talk about how we gonna reconcile it. What will we do? How will we begin to build a healthy way of engaging with one another and build in a relationship. Now the relationship might not be tight. I might not be come away being old lovey dovey fu fu fu. But understanding one another and being able to speak peacefully to one another. being able to say, You know what? I agree or I don't agree. And stay in that space where we can work through some of the challenges that we have and some of the difference of opinions and ideals we have between one another. Danielle (46:29):And I think our kids are just waiting for us to pass these tools to them. My daughter was part of a meeting and part of what happened with my daughter who's Mexican, is that she heard a classmate called the N word and then spoke up about it and then was sharing that story. And then one of the Latino students was talking about , how another Latino student was talking about being told to go across the border. And my daughter shared that the African American student presence said, I don't want that to be like that for you. That doesn't happen to me. I wish I knew so I could say something before they got there faster than I've gotten there. Akuyea (47:13):But you know what? And I can say this, and this is not taking away back to where you came from. This ain't your country. And I'm like, how did we be an enslaved and brought here in chains? You be able to say, you need to go back to where you come from. I didn't come here , many came. But most of the Africans that are enslaved to these Americas, they come here on their own He knows, he knows. And we have to talk. I mean for us to sit here, whether we're black, white, Asian, Pacific Islanders or Dominicans or Puertoricans or we have a understanding of who we are, Where we come from, our ancestral history, history of our parents and their parents and their parents parents, . We carry all of that in our dna We understand in a way that we should be able to have some healthy conversations and not feel bad about who we are. But many of our children have been forced into force assimilation in this nation. , they got to lose who they are in assimilate to be accepted, which very unhealthy they made the native students, you either assimilate or exterminate And the same thing with a lot of the enslaved Africans that they brought here. I don't call myself a African American. I come from an enslaved people brought to a stolen land. An enslaved to this America. I'm African I'm an African woman who's ancestors were stolen and enslaved to these lands. They've gone over, What do you wanna call yourself? I call myself black. I'm black. Danielle (50:18):As we're wrapping up here, how do folks are at listening? It's voting day. We have all the charge of the events. I think people are gonna hear the passion in our voices today. I wonder in Kitsap County, how can folks connect to you? How can I think, I wanna encourage us to have more of these restorative circles. How can they get in touch with you? How can they support what we are trying to do in this community? Akuyea (50:52):Yes. Well, you can always get in contact with the work with Kitsap Erase coalition, with the work that we do in our schools with our multicultural advisory council, with Living life leadership, with the Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project. I mean, I'm accessible in our community. I try to make myself available for our parents, for our students, for community members. We like to work in coalition . We understand that we can work in silos and we can work alone in our agencies and our stuff. But I'm more concerned about the collective collaborative work that it will take all of us to do to transform our communities . We have to be able to learn how to work together with one another as human beings. So yes, if you go on Kitsap e Race coalition, you'll be able to connect with the coalition because we want us to be able to cultivate working together. On. No, you ok girl. . No, we wanna be able to work together and if we got is let's talk about our issues and together and see how we can have a healthy relationship with one another. Danielle (52:35):We are one place, but this is the work we need to be doing across in small conversations like this across our country, which can lead. Akuyea (53:11):That's right, that's right. And hear me say this, we have a unique opportunity to model something not just for our children, our families, our community members, our schools. We have the unique opportunity to model for a nation how to do the work in your own community to bring about change. Danielle (53:37):We do have that opportunity. Akuyea (53:40):And to me, that's inspiring to me. That's what gets my juices up and flowing in the morning. 

Misty Harper-Anderson is someone who values deep connection and authenticity inrelationships. She has led in various faith spaces for the past eight years after spendingthe first part of her vocational life in the corporate world. She is a visionary leader whoappreciates the power of collaboration. Misty is the Senior Director of Event Management for Pulse (https://pulse.org). Additionally, she serves as the Lead and Planting Pastor for Aspen Community Church. Misty and her husband, Bill, live in Eagan. Even though their children are all adults, atleast technically, they spend a lot of time together. Their oldest daughter, Sydney,married a great man, Ludwig, in 2020. Their son, Jacob, lives in Alabama and loves thesouth. Their youngest daughter, London, is now at MNSU Mankato. So, they areexperiencing the empty nest for the first time. This is a family who loves board games,hiking and traveling togetherDanielle (00:18):Hey, welcome to theArise podcast, Conversations on faith, race, justice, gender and healing. And the guest on the podcast is just a dear friend today, Misty Harper Anderson. First of all, you're gonna hear me say that I have a room in her house. I've stayed in the same room twice, and I have, uh, my own drinks in there, LaCroix my own flavor, Misty Ann is truly the embodiment of hospitality, someone I trust, uh, who's willing to have difficult conversations. Someone who's been in the liminal space before and has persisted in that space. She's an event planner, um, a pastor, a church planter, and someone that's hung onto her faith in very authentic in real ways. Love to hear where you're at, what you're doing. Any recent changes you're willing to share. I, I love you. Respect you. I've been in your house. I have my own room there. Um, yeah, , and I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for a long time. I know we collaborated on a writing project a while backElection. And I think after that experience, I was just knocked out. I've written here and there since then, but, you know, it was like a lot of emotional experience for all of us. So yeah, tell me what are you comfortable sharing about what you're doing? I know you have some exciting things going on, so I'd love to hear about them.Misty (01:36):Yeah, for sure. Well, first know this, you still have a room here. It still has your LaCroix water in it, and there were some m and m's there now safely in like a, a jar that's tightly sealed. So whenever you come back, they are waiting for you in your room. Uh, what I'm doing right now, so many things. So, so many things. Um, I, I just accepted a full-time job and, uh, I am really excited about the, the title of, of the position as Senior Senior Director of Event Management. So really it's going to be logistics behind these really large evangelism events. And, uh, I love nuts and bolts and things. I love spreadsheets. That's like one of the nerdy things about me. I love color coded spreadsheets. Uh, so that's new that will start this coming Monday. So in just a couple of days.And in addition to that, I am doing event management for our friend Joe Saxton and, and Steph O'Brien. And that, that part of my work will wrap up probably like the end of November. Uh, and that's been very fun. You know, I have such great love and respect for both of them, and I love AZA is their event, and I love that. And just everything that they represent in this world and how they uplift and encourage women. So it's been such a privilege to work with them. And then I teach a New Testament and Old Testament at Buffalo University, and that too, that will wrap up, uh, the first week of December. And I teach students with intellectual disabilities, so autism, uh, and Down syndrome. And it has been my oldest daughter, Sydney. She said, Mom, there's no other job that's given you that has given you heart eyes than like that job, because it's been such a good passion project for me.I love those students and I'm glad that I get to finish up this with them. Uh, and we're church planning still. We've been in the process of church planting since, uh, fall of 2020. Really, really started to kick things off more like spring, summer, fall 2021. And now we are moving into this model of church that actually comes outta Seattle. Uh, it is in Seattle. It's known as Dinner Church, and we will call it Table Church. But it's simple. It's this, We meet around tables, we share food together. Uh, there is, uh, what's called a short Jesus story. So we just, uh, any, any of the stories that come out of the New Testament about Jesus, because I love the Old Testament, will sneak some of that in there too. Uh, and, and then it creates space for conversation about we're, what we're teaching about, and there are a few things that I really love about this.Something that's just really been on my heart lately is that when we come to these tables, there's no food insecurity. We don't know where people are coming from. We've had people join us who are homeless, to people who come from relatively significant wealth. I mean, at least comfort. And when we're at the table, it is an even playing field, and you only have to share your story or those parts of your story if you really want to. And, uh, it is just this way for us to get to know each other deeply, and for us to build this place of trust. So many people are coming out of situations where they've been hurt by church. And so for us to be able to have this, what's called fresh expression of church, which really is like original church, right? Book of Acts church is what this is. Uh, it's been so beautiful to watch this unfold and it's still unfolding. We're still figuring things out and how, how this will look for us and for our community specifically. So those are all the things, Danielle,Danielle (05:34):That's so many things. I mean, that's funny. You've been on a journey, right? We were, I think we paralleled like being in grad school together for a bit.And then you graduated and what's your master's degree in?Misty (05:46):It's a master of divinity.Danielle (05:48):Okay. So you're a boss,Misty (05:50):, that's the goal, right? I mean, that's the goal,Danielle (05:53):And so I, I know you were on this journey, like what is, uh, what does the next step in life mean? Like, I have my degree, what do I wanna do next? And so I know you've been exploring and allowing yourself to try different things, and I don't know if you'd be even be willing to speak about like what it was like to like live in that unknown or be exploring that.Misty (06:16):Yeah, so incredibly uncomfortable , so uncomfortable. Uh, you know, that part of my story is leaving a really traumatic church experience and, and feeling so confused because that happened just as my seminary time was ending and feeling like, Okay, God, I really feel like you led me into seminary. I feel like this was the right move. And yet here I am, uh, I'm no longer part of a church. Like we didn't have a church to attend. I wasn't working at a church anymore, and that was March, 2020. So it's pandemic. So finding a new place to come together to worship with people, uh, it it was just a really tricky PO process. And we have met some great church planters and church people along the way, and that's been part of this redemptive story for us, Uh, to see, to see healthy churches that are functioning well, people who really love each other.Well, that's been so good. And still, and I'm gonna be real honest here, that Tuesday morning, uh, so a week ago Tuesday, I'd been praying about this, this position that I was just offered. And I, and I've been praying for months, like, God, what, what is it that you want from me? Like, have I really missed so many cues for you? Or have I messed my life up too badly that something good can't come from this? And just so many big doubts. And that morning I'd had it really, my husband who has been working from home, uh, actually went into the office that day. So I had the whole house to myself, and it was my voice raised to God. And I don't mean like raised and praised, I mean like, I was yelling at God and tears and like, What do you want from me? And I'm so frustrated. And in that same time is when I was getting the email saying, Hey, can you send us your resume and cover letter for this job? So then I had to go back to God the next day and be like, Thanks for loving me how I am.But also like he sees, he sees these frustrations. He knows how difficult this liminal space is. And, uh, that is much as I know that I'm seen and known and loved by God. I couldn't feel that then I, I felt so, uh, yeah, not seen, not understood, not heard. And I know that timing and prayer isn't necessarily our timing. And still, I was just getting to the end of my patienceBecause you can't see, you can't see when the end is coming. Right. The, I didn't, there wasn't anything in my path at that moment that even looked like a glimmer of hope to me mm-hmm. and I was at my lips end.Danielle (09:20):Yeah. Yeah. So you've got an invitation to submit a resume and a cover letter. Like how did they find you? Do you know?Misty (09:27):So I'd applied for the job. Okay. And, uh, through an online application process. And they specifically wanted my resume and cover letter to go to a specific person, so that, to the hiring manager. So to send it again, which allowed me the possibility of rewriting my cover letter because I'm an overthinker Danielle, I, I wrote one, I sent it, it was specific to the job, but still kind of generic. And then I'm thinking about this over the course of like, what, three or four days? Like, Mm. I should have said this. So then I did.Danielle (10:00):Yeah. I love it that you gave your chance yourself a chance to rewrite the cover letter yourself permission to say, Hey, I wanna do this differently. And you tried it.Misty (10:11):Yeah. Yeah. And it's paid off. Uh, the meetings with this organization were so good. And now I have a friend who started working with them on Tuesday, and she, uh, has been just talking about her time with them so far, and how it seems to be like real relationship, like healthy relationship between, uh, director level and employee level and management. And, uh, so just, just to even have this hope of, of a healthy work environment mm-hmm. is really encouraging.Danielle (10:45):Right. Because part of what I think was like stalling was this traumatic event at this church organization.Misty (10:52):Yep. Yep. And all of these people who I believe really love Jesus, and yet people who really love Jesus can behave very poorly sometimes. So, uh, and, and I'm not, I I'm guessing that we're gonna have moments of that too in this new position. I am not looking for rainbows and unicorns here. I, uh, I hope to be in a space that, that we recognize when we are behaving poorly and can ask for forgiveness after that. And, and that's been some of the, the redemption, the restoration story from this church experience too, is that there's been lots of healing in those once broken relationships. And while they'll never be what they once were, they're so much better than what they were two and a half years ago.Danielle (11:45):How do you see your experience now as you're mo you've moved through so much liminal space and now you have like many jobs.Misty (11:54):It's too many.Danielle (11:55):Yeah. Too many. Like how do you see that traumatic experience right at the tail end of grad school? Like, has it reframed it for you? Has it cemented things for you? Like Yeah.Misty (12:07):Yeah. Good question. I, one of the things, it's made me more aware. So even going into the interview process for this new position, I was, uh, very upfront with the questions that I had about things like accountability and support for their leaders mm-hmm. . Uh, so how, how does this organization, uh, I don't know that you can actually ensure, uh, that there isn't going to be any bad behavior, but what, what are, what does this organization do to, uh, to try to prevent it anyway, to, to keep their people accountable? And there were some really good answers, and those were questions that I wouldn't have necessarily thought to ask before. Uh, because with the work that I do with our church plant, well, I'm the person that needs the accountability. And, uh, because that's something important to me. I'm, I'm, I'm very open and honest with the people that I'm leading.Uh, with the work that I'm doing at Bethel University, uh, I am accountable to a director who also is very open and communicative and also, and then, and then there's the work with Steph and Joe, and we just know them so well. So it's just not something that I even think about with them. But going into this, it's a larger organization with people that, I don't know, it made me more aware of. I, I want to know the answers to these questions before I would ever say yes. And it, it seems to me like they have really good systems in place, uh, to try and avoid some of maybe that celebrity culture that we've seen in the Christian realm in the last few years. And, and a lot of the shake up and the, the lights that, the light that's been shown on some bad behavior in Christian culture. Mm-hmm.Danielle (13:59):How do you, I think what I hear is you see yourself as part of the change.Misty (14:05):Yeah. Yeah. That's been my part of my hope.It was in the last church too. And, and part of that is there are a couple of things. One of them being a woman in ministry, uh, and coming out of a highly complementarian setting, uh, and also wanting something so different for the church as a whole. And I would, I would say specifically the, the Western church, uh, wanting to be part of something that's so much like in the community, getting to know the people, whether, whether people ever come to your church or not, But getting to know people and really caring for them. Uh, that's been part of the change that I've wanted to see. And now there are ways in which I get to be part of making it.Danielle (14:53):What things do you particularly latch onto as, um, as pre, like, as ways you wanna engage leadership?Misty (15:01):I love being able to see giftedness in people and then to challenge them to use their gifts. I also love learning from other leaders. So for instance, in our church plant, we're small. We are about maybe seven households right now. And, uh, in that, I've seen three other people who are excellent communicators. And so they, they teach for us sometimes on Sunday mornings, but also in that we have people in, even in the small group of people we have, uh, Gen Z through, I think boomers probably. Okay. And, uh, and then people, like my very own son-in-law right, is from El Salvador. And so we have different perspective from him. We have, uh, a family who, the husband in the family is African American, the wife is Iranian. And, um, so just learning different perspectives from different people and how do we incorporate that into our church? Because isn't at the beauty of the kingdom of God is people from every tribe and tongue and nation. And so I think to be an effective leader in our community, in our family, in our church, it's really about seeing people for who they are and how uniquely they're created and celebrating that instead of trying to make everybody be the same.Oh, it's been a really, um, maybe like more like Lewis and Clark style, right? Like, it's taking some time, it's taking some time. This isn't a, a fast trail. Um, cuz when you think about, okay, let's think about really creating a trail and like chopping down branches and making a path and going through storms and, and whatever that means, uh, there's a lot of grit that comes with it and, uh, you don't necessarily see the rewards right away. That's been one of the things that I've had to really hold onto in the last couple of years, is in a society that highly values instant gratification, that's not what this work is about. Mm-hmm. , this isn't about selling a product and seeing profits instantly or quickly. Uh, this is long, hard work that is so beautiful. And some of this, I would guess I may never see the results of it, Right. They may be things that happen in generations to come and can I sit in that tension and, and be okay with it. Mm-hmm. , it's been a lot. That's been a lot of inner work that I've been doing. Mm-hmm.Thank goodness for my therapist and my spiritual director because I don't know how I would do this without them.Danielle (18:03):Yeah. Talk to me a little bit how you care for yourself through this process, because clearly you have your mind around things, you're able to really articulate where you're coming from. And I, my guess is you're doing that with care.Misty (18:15):Yeah. Yeah. Self-care has been a key for me. And, uh, also I'm somebody who loves schedule and routine, and so that's gonna shake up a little bit in this next week. Uh, uh, like physical self care. So exercise has been super important to me. I love to lift heavy weights, , it's a really great way to get rid of some tension and walks. It's fall here in Minnesota right now, and it's beautiful. I know that winter's coming, but for right now, I'll enjoy fall. Uh, but my therapist and my spiritual director really are two key people in my life and functions so differently. Uh, and I tell, I tell my kids sometimes I feel like my therapist, I pay her a copay to be my friend , like, she's so lovely. Uh, uh, but just to have these, uh, so my therapist isn't somebody that I know outside of, you know, my normal life.She is a professional that I've met and, uh, has this perspective of my life that is different from the people who are in my life, who are who, right? She can give me this outside perspective of it. And then, uh, my spiritual director actually is a woman that I've known for, I think 20 years now, or almost 20 years. And she, uh, knows so much of my life and also, um, really is so very connected to the Holy Spirit. And so to have conversations with her, again, with both of these women, it's this opportunity to, uh, see pieces of my life from their perspective, things that I wouldn't see on my own. Uh, so that's been really key for me to, uh, keep, keep calm, uh, to stay focused. Uh, now clearly I told you I just freaked out at God, just a week ago. So that doesn't happen all of the time, but, uh, it does happen most of the time that I can stay focused on what really matters.Danielle (20:29):Yeah. So what, what are like your top three things you would tell to someone else in like coming through that liminal space?Misty (20:43):First, have really good people around you. Really good people. Yeah. Um, my husband has been incredibly supportive. Uh, he just, he's a really supportive man and, uh, has given me the space to like li sometimes physical space, like literal physical space. Like I need to be left alone to process some of these things, but also as somebody that I can have a conversation with. So him, our kids, friends, uh, the people in our church, like these are good people who've come alongside me. Uh, I also am a huge proponent of journaling, and that is because now I can look back, I actually have the same journal for, uh, the last two years. And I can look back on these pages and see some of these repeated prayers and repeated themes. And uh, it helps I think in those times where you, for, for me as a person of faith, where I'm like, Okay, God, are you even hearing what I'm saying to you? And, and then to see maybe the, the gradual answers, whether they're yes, no, not now, whatever they are mm-hmm.And then the third thing is to take time to see what really brings you joy.And I think that I, I read something or I saw something the other day about, uh, people who go through long periods of liminal space and can no longer even remember their why or, um, have like no sense of calling anymore because they are just trying to, Oh, it might have actually been stuff. And Joe, it it, it was this like, you just are so used to disappointment that you don't even know what it's like to like long for something or hope for something more. And that holding onto that hope can be really difficult when it's been such a long time since it's been affirmed.Danielle (22:49):Right. That feels hard to hear.Yeah. And you know, like those seasons of drought when, you know, hope is dangerous.Misty (23:02):Yes, for sure. For sure. Uh, I was in this training a couple of months ago and they were talking about, it was different language, but it was liminal space and how also also understanding how things might not go back to the way that they once were mm-hmm. . And so it's also learning to, to let go of something so that you can lead in the space that you're in instead of holding onto this hope of the past. Can we hope for something in the future, even if there's this hard thing that you have to let go of mm-hmm. that has been a, a theme in my life. I think you maybe know I turned 50 in August. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yay. And I'm one of those people I'm super thankful for every year that I get, uh, I, I last both of my parents in the last few years and so you bet I'm gonna celebrate every single birthday that I get to celebrate.And I've always loved my birthday. I actually celebrate the whole month. But turning 50, I was thinking about this year of Jubilee and that comes from the Old Testament. And it was like after 50 years you release debts, you release people who had been enslaved to you. Um, like so there are these people that are coming out, uh, and have this freedom, whether it's freedom from debt or freedom from being somebody's servant. Well then also there's this letting go of the person who was holding onto the debt. So there it's this, this idea of, for me it's this idea of, okay, what do I need to let go of that I've been holding so tightly to so that I have a room for whatever God has next to me. And that too has been part of this process in the last couple of years. Okay. I'm holding on to some hopes and dreams of, of things from the past and those things, they're not reality anymore. And so can I let go of them so that I can be open and ready for whatever is next. And it's hard. It's been really hard, but it's also been what's been so good.Danielle (25:15):I just, I would love to ask people three questions. Okay. Okay. What are you reading right now? What are you listening to and who are what's inspiring you?Misty (25:26):Mm, good questions. I am somebody who reads lots of things at the same time, . So, uh, we as our church have been talking about spiritual practices. Uh, we've been calling them Jesus experiment. So I have been going back through some of Ritual Lotus's, the deeply formed life. And also I love that book. I, he is, he is just one of my favorites. I I share almost everything that he has on his Instagram cuz there's so much wisdom there. Uh, and then, uh, the Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster. Those are a couple of things that I'm reading and I appreciate both of their perspectives. Uh, I listen to a pile of podcasts, so the Lead Stories podcast is one that I listen to every week. I so just for fun, I love The Office Ladies, have you ever listened to that or did you ever watch The Office?Danielle (26:20):No, I know what you're talking about though. ,Misty (26:23):It's so silly and it's so funny. So it's just a really nice way to not have to think about anything, just just to laugh about something. Gemma Kucher, that's another, I think her podcast is called Gold Digger. Like Gold Geo l Digger and that's primarily for entrepreneurs. But, um, I don't know, there's lots of good stuff that she shares too. And then was the last one what brings me joy orDanielle (26:49):What Yeah, sure. What brings you joy? Who or what's inspiring you?Misty (26:52):Oh, what's inspiring me? Well, the other thing that you know about us is our youngest went to college in August and uh, it's been a huge change just for all of us. Uh, so three kids. Our oldest is married and she and her husband just bought a house. So that's been exciting. Uh, our son's in Alabama so we don't get to see him actually very much. And then our youngest moves out, so it's just my husband and me at home now. And while he and I like we are enjoying our time together. Uh, it's been this really weird freedom of we don't have soccer games three nights a week anymore. So that's been so weird. Uh, but to see my kids, my kids really inspire me. So to see Sydney and her husband and they've been married now for two years and worked so hard and now that they, um, are working hard again cause they bought this house and there's lots of work to do and thankfully a lot of super handy.So we can do lots of things, but like to see them coming into their own and finding their own path and life. And now for, uh, London. Uh, so she goes to college the first week is like, Yeah, awesome. I'm on my own and I am making these new friends. And then a couple of weeks later it's like, hmm, there's some conflict between some of these people and I don't like conflict, but I don't really wanna address it. Mm-hmm. and maybe I should just transfer schools. I was like, okay. And then now we are at this place where she's finding where she fits and she is enjoying school and thinking that this will be the uni university that she'll be at for the next three and a half years or so. And to see them all go through such change mm-hmm. and they're doing okay.But, it's hard sometimes and, and too when like, I see her, our youngest who is almost 19, but still my baby mm-hmm. and she's hurting and she doesn't wanna go back to school mm-hmm. . Uh, but to see those things and no, I can't fix them and also I shouldn't fix them because it's part of what makes her her is learning how to take care of some of these things. Um, again, they're figuring it out and they're becoming stronger, better people for it. And uh, I just so appreciate them and all that. I get to learn, learn through them. I hope that they've learned some things from me, uh, but also I learned things from them.Danielle (29:33):Well, I'm sure they're learning things from you because one way to manage transitions is to have strong attachment with your parental figure or figure. And so I think that indicates some groundedness that you've instilled in given to them. So.Misty (29:49):Well, thank you for that encouragement,Danielle (29:51):Yeah. Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough, you know. Yeah,Misty (29:55):That's right. Yeah. There is no perfection in parenting.Danielle (29:59):No. Um, thank you so much for being with me and you know, I'd love to have you back and interview a guest or you know, love for us to collaborate in the future. So thank you.Misty (30:10):Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was so good. Yeah. Talking to you.Danielle (30:13):I know. Me too. 

 Bios:Ernest Gray Jr. is the pastor of Keystone Baptist Church located in the West Garfield Park neighborhood of Chicago.  He is a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute with a degree in Pastoral Ministries, and a graduate of Wheaton College with a Master's Degree in Biblical Exegesis.  He completed his PhD coursework at McMaster Divinity College and is currently completing his thesis within the corpus of 1 Peter. Mr. Gray has taught in undergraduate school of Moody in the areas of Hermeneutics, first year Greek Grammar, General Epistles, the Gospel of John and Senior Seminar. It is Mr. Gray's hope to impact the African American church  through scholarship. Teaching has been one way that God has blessed him to live this out.  Ernest is also co-host of the newly released podcast Just Gospel with an emphasis upon reading today's social and racial injustices through a gospel lens. www.moodyradio.org    Jen Oyama Murphy  "My love of good stories led me to Yale University where I received a BA in English. Upon graduation, I felt called to bring individual stories into relationship with the Gospel Story, and I have worked in the areas of campus and church ministry, lay counseling, and pastoral care since 1989. Over the years, I sought a variety of ongoing education and training in the fields of psychology and theology, including graduate classes at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and Benedictine University. I also completed the Training Certificate and Externship programs at The Allender Center, and I previously held roles on their Training and Pastoral Care Team, as Manager of Leadership Development, and most recently as the Senior Director of The Allender Center. Believing that healing and growth happens in the context of relationship, I work collaboratively to create a safe coaching space of curiosity and kindness where honesty, care, desire, and imagination can grow. Using my experience and expertise in a trauma-informed, narrative-focused approach, I seek to help people live the story they were most meant for and heal from the ones they were not. I am passionate about personal support and development, particularly for leaders in nonprofit or ministry settings, including lay leaders who may not have a formal title or position. I'm especially committed to engaging the personal and collective stories of those who have felt invisible, marginalized, and oppressed. I love facilitating groups as well as working individually with people. I currently live in Chicago with my husband, and we have two adult daughters.Rebecca Wheeler Walston lives in Virginia, has completed  Law School at UCLA, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister. Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts.TJ PoonDr. Ernest Gray (00:41:40):Absolutely. Absolutely. There will be stories told in the next five, no, two or three years now about, this is the fascinating thing I'm trying to wrap my mind around is that it is this, I need to do a more research upon the Ukrainian Russian thing wherein you have, um, my ignorance, you have an apparent Eastern European, you have, uh, you know, have an eastern European kind of, this isn't anything about pigment autocracy, but culturally, I'm op I'm opposed to you because you have Russian descent, and I'm a Ukrainian descent. So upon the, upon the outside, it's not anything that has to do with the, with the merits of, of, of, uh, racial, racial, a racialized racialization. It has more to do with the cultural, um, ethnicity kind of, um, indicatives that create this hostility between the two. And to hear the atrocities that are ongoing right now against, you know, each o against the, the Ukrainian Russian conflict, right now, we're gonna hear about those things and, and, and hear just how egregious they are or whether it's the, um, the tusks and the Hutus in the Rwandan conflict, or whether it's the Bosnians versus the, um, the Serbians. I mean, there's gonna be a lot of that. There's, we, we find that these things occur, um, and that, and that it's, it's all because of these notions of superiority and, and tools of the enemy in order to, to, to divide and conquer. Um, and then coupled with power create, you know, devastating effects. I, I I, I, I think that there's a, um, there's a, there's a, the, the collectivist idea of seeing us all in the same boat with various facets is something that we need to strive. It's not easy to always to do. Um, but it's gotta happen. If we're going to create a, a better human, if we're not creative, if the Lord is gonna work in a way to, to help us, uh, move toward a better humanity, one that is at least honoring may not happen in our lifetime, may not happen until we see the Lord face to face. But at the same time, that's the work that we're, I'm called to is to be, uh, or, you know, to, to be the embodiment of some type of re repa posture, um, modeling for others what it could look like. Danielle (00:44:19):Sure. Yeah. Um, Rebecca and I put this in here, Hurt versus harm. Um, hurt being, and, and again, these, these are definitions coming from us, so I recognize that other people may have a different view and we can talk about that. Um, hurt being in, in, when Rebecca and I were talking about it inevitable in any relationship may cause painful feelings and hurt someone's feelings. Um, harm violating a person's dignity, and it takes energy non consensually from someone So how do individual hurts add to or cement structural power structures and our perspective and experience of harm? How do individual hurts add to or cement structural power structures and our perspective and experience of, of them? Dr. Ernest Gray (00:45:31):Yeah. Um, it's cuz you've got muscle memory hurt, um, over and over and over and over and over of sorts provides a muscle memory, a knee jerk, a kind of , Oh, this is familiar, here we go again. Ow. So I think that's one way, I'll, I'll step back now, but I think that, that it's the body that maintains a powerful memory of the feeling and it feels, and it's gonna be a familiar kind of triggering slash re-injury that until it's interrupted, can create, can see this as, um, broadly speaking, a a, a more, um, yeah, a reoccurring thing that is, that needs to be interrupted. TJ Poon(00:46:27):I'm really mindful of this in my relationships because there's a lot of horror from white people, from white women towards different communities. And so, like in my relationships, you, there's a, there's a mindfulness of like, maybe we have a disruption and at the level of me and this other person, it is a hurt, but it, it reinforces a harm that they've experienced or it feels like, um, feels similar to. And so it's not like we, I it's not like we opt, we can opt out. Like it can't opt out of that collective narrative. I can't say, Oh, well I'm just, you know, this one person. Um, so I, I think that is complex because the individual hurts do contribute. They feel like what Dr. Gray was saying, like it is muscle memory. It's some sometimes where something can feel or just reinforce, I guess, um, what has already happened to us in contexts. Jen Oyama Murphy (00:47:36):I mean, I think the complexity of the relationship between hurt and harm, um, contributes to how hard it can be to actually have meaningful repair. Because I, my experience sometimes, and I, I know I do this myself, that I will lean into the hurt and apologize or try to do repair on a personal one to one level and somehow feel like if I do that, it will also, it also repairs the harm. And that doesn't, that's, that's not true. I mean, it can perhaps contribute to a restorative process or a repair process around the harm, but Right. Just me, um, in charge of a small group repairing for a particular hurt that may have happened in the small group doesn't necessarily address the structure, the system that put that small group together, the content that's being taught, you know, the, the opportunity for those participants to even be in the program, Right. That there is something that's happening at a, at a harm level, um, that my personal apology for something that I did that hurt someone in the group isn't actually addressing. But we can hope that it does or act like it does or even have the expectation, um, that it will. And so the, I love the new, the nuance or the, the clarity between the two definitions that you guys are, um, asking us to wrestle with. I think that's, that's good's making me think just for myself. Like where do I go first, you know, out of my own, um, training or naivete or just like wishful thing, thinking that, that I can't repair systemic harm by apologizing or repairing like a personal hurt. Danielle (00:49:36):Um, I mean, Jen, I've been wrestling with that and, and when I, when I, in my experience, when someone apologizes to me, and I know they're apologizing for personal hurt, but I feel like they haven't said in, in, in a way I can understand often I'm not understanding how do I actually get out of this so we're not pitted against each other again. Mm-hmm. , when I feel trapped in that space and I receive an apology, I often, I, I feel more angry even at, even if I know the person sincerely apologizing, if I'm telling a more true story to you all as a Latinx person, and I've noticed this in my family, I receive the apology, and yet when I have to continue to function in the system, I am more angry afterwards. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , there's a frustration that happens, which then of course is bottled down and it, I often talk to my clients about this, but I was talking to my husband about it. It's like we threw all this stuff in the pressure cooker cuz we do a lot of pressure cooking and put a plastic lid on it. And now the s h I t spread sideways. And that's kind of how it feels when we, now I'm not saying we can do this perfectly or I even know how to do it, but when we address hurt, that's part of systemic harm without addressing the system. I think in my experience, it feels like I'm feeling my own pressure cooker mm-hmm. and I'm not able to contain the spray at different times. Mm-hmm. . Dr. Ernest Gray (00:51:20):Yeah. I think I think about for, I think about for me, the, my, my the, you know, systemizing, systematizing the way in which I associate things, what the right environment, the way in which my, you know, my senses have associated things. I'll have dejavu because I had a certain smell from my childhood and it'll, it could be triggering, right? I smell something and I'm like, Oh man, that reminds me of this moment. All that categorization to me tells me how my brain functions and how mm-hmm. associative. Mm-hmm. , it is for instances, smells, places, um, things that occur. And it's, it's the, it's the ongoing sense of that, especially if we've come out of, um, houses or, um, families where this was it, it was normative for us to experience these things on a regular basis so that any, any hint of it elsewhere outside of that, outside of the confines of that can reignite that same kind of shallow breathing and response. And I don't wanna, um, but, but definitely the advancing of hurt versus harm. It, it, it, the harm the those in whatever that instance is that creates, that, that response outta me lets me know that more that it is, it was the ongoing nature of those things which created the harm. Um, and so it almost asks, I it's first acknowledgement and then secondly saying, What do I need to do to take care of myself in this instance? Where do I need to go? What do I need to give myself in this moment so that I'm not going down this road of, here we go again. I'm in a corner . I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna kind of check out. But, um, I think about the west side of Chicago where I'm ministering, um, and I'm thinking about, you know, just this community that it doesn't really affect them. It, it really doesn't to hear gunshots, to hear, um, to hear, uh, sirens and things like that. These are everyday occurrence so that the, so that the, so that the ongoing nature of what they're used to just has evolved into this kind of numbing sense. But I, but I guess in going back, it is interrupting that, that delicate, um, sequence of events so that it does not cause me to shut down in that moment that I've, that I'm still learning how to do for myself. Right. And I think that in our interpersonal relationships, especially, here's where it meets the road, is in our interpersonal, or even our most intimate relationships, the ongoing hurt and does eventually, uh, you know, cross the line into harm because it has taken away the energy out of that, out of the other person, uh, or or out of us. Um, after such a long time after repeated, repeated instances. Rebecca W. Walston (00:54:31):I, I think what I think I'm hearing everybody alludes this sense of like, can there be an awareness of, of the, where the interpersonal and the individual kind of collides with the collective and the systemic, right? And, and just a more complex understanding of how any incident, however big or small the rupture is. Where is the interplay of those two things? So, so that a comment between two people can actually have this impact that's far more and reverberates with the kind of generational familiarity that that all of a sudden, it, it, it, it, um, we're, we're out of the category. My feelings are hurt and into this space of it feels like something of in me has been violated. Um, and I think it takes a, an enormous amount of energy and awareness on the part of both people, both the person who perpetrated something and the person who was on the receiving end of that, to have a sense of like where they are and where they are and where the other person is to kind of know that and build all to hold it, um, with some integrity. There was a point in which we brought a group of people, uh, to, to view the equal justice initiative, um, landmarks in Montgomery, Alabama, and the conversation and a processing conversation between a white woman and a black woman. And, you know, after having come from the, the National Memorial and Peace and Justice and witnessing the history of lynching, understandably, this black woman was deeply angry, like profoundly angry, um, and trying to manage in the moment what that anger was and, and, and turned to the white participant and said like, I, like I'm really angry at you. Like, I kind of hate you right now. Mm-hmm. , um, two people who are virtually strangers. Right. And, and, and, and for the white woman to have said to her a sense of like, um, I get it. I got it. I'm, I'm white and I'm a woman.And there's a sense in which historically white women called this particular place in the lynching of black bodies mm-hmm. . Um, and also can, can I be in this room in the particularity of my individual story and know that I personally, Right. Um, don't, don't agree with that, stand against it, have not participated actively in it. Kind of a sense of like, you know, and it may have been an imperfect or, or generous engagement, but you can hear the tension of like, how can we both be in this room and hold the collective historical nature of this? And the particularity of the two individuals in the room together hadn't actually been the active participant interrupter. So Yeah. I think it's hard and messy. Danielle (00:57:51):I, I love what, uh, Rebecca wrote. There was, you know, been talking to me about do we imagine Shalom as a return to where we started? Cause the very nature of the disrupt disruption being we cannot return from Eden to the city of God. Um, and Rebecca, I'll let you elaborate on that a little bit more, but when we were talking Rebecca and I, you know, as a mixed race woman, and in those mixes, you know, is indigenous and Spanish and African, and, you know, just this mix, I'm like, where would I return to? Right? Mm-hmm. , what community does a Latinx person returned to? If, if it's a return to Eden, where is, is Eden lost? And so, um, yeah, Rebecca, I don't know if you wanna expand on what you were thinking. Rebecca W. Walston (00:58:43):Uh, I mean, I I've just been wrestling with this in particular, you know, we talk about individual hurt. It's easy to talk about like the disruption that happened in Eden, that what God meant for me individually, what you know, is reflected in the Garden of Eden. The kind of peace and the kind of generosity and the kind of, um, uh, just more that, that is in the Garden of Eden. And, but when I, when I try and so, so there's a depend in which I can step into this work and have this individual sense of like, Oh, you know, I wasn't meant for the fracture and my relationship between myself and my parents, Right? I was meant for something that was more whole than that. So how do I, how do I have a sense of what that was like in Eden, and how do I have a sense of going back to that kind of, that kind of space? But when I translate that into like collective work around racial trauma, I get lost like Danielle, right? In this, this sense that like, um, in, in her book, Born On the Water, um, the author sort of makes this argument that though these African people got on the ship at the beginning in Africa, while they made the journey across the Atlantic and before they landed in the United States, something happened on the water. And there's something in that hyphenated existence that created a new people group in, in a way that like, I can't actually go back to Africa. I like, I can't, I mean, I will go there and for half a second somebody might mistaken me for a, a colored person, right? And if you're inside Africa, that means I'm not fully African. I'm not fully white, I'm somewhere in the middle. But the second I open my mouth, they, they know I'm not African. I'm something else, right? And there's a sense in which I can't actually go back to Eden. There, there's something that happened in the rupture and the displacement that actually makes it impossible for me to return for that, right? And, and I still have that sense of being displaced in the hyphenated existence in the US that makes me, in some ways not fully American either. So what, what is the answer to that? And as I started to wrestle with that theologically, you know, I'm looking at the text going, actually, the, the journey for the Christian is not back to Eden . Like the end game is not back to Genesis, it's to revelation in the city of God. And so that's my sense of this comment is like, do do I pivot and start to imagine repair as not a return to Eden, but onto something else? And, and, and, um, you know, then I begin to suspect that, uh, that, that there's something even in the journey of, of that, that that is a far more value to me that I would want more than just the return to Eden. There's something sweeter having made it onto the city of God. So this is my wonderings. Curious how, how that hits for any of you. Dr. Ernest Gray (01:02:09):I think the, I think you're spot on. And I guess I, I guess it's a maturity mark that says that this continuum, this, this, um, I think you get to a certain and you just realize you never really arrive. And I think this fits within that same conceptual framework of like, you know, hey , you know, you, you could reach the pinnacle of your career. And, um, and yet, you know, it's still not be ultimately satisfying because it's like, is that it? You know, I think I'm on top of the mountain and I, and I guess that's the, that's inherent of human, of human of humanness for me is that I'm, I'm, I'm resigned to thinking about completion and absolute perfection. I'll be perfected when I meet Jesus. They'll be the more work for me to do or work in me to be done. But in the meantime, um, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be striving, blowing it, striving, um, gaining some, you know, gaining some, um, some skills and learning how to navigate better life and figuring out what works and doesn't work any, uh, as I go, as I age, as I, and hopefully in growing wisdom. Um, but I, I like this idea because there's a sense of, of jettisoning your experiences as though they're irrelevant. No, they're what brought me to this place and they're what's propelling me forward. Um, there's this sense of I might as well give them a hug and bring them with me on the journey, uh, because then they create a sense of meaning and value for me and for those of, uh, you know, for me, uh, as I'm, as I'm making my progress through, through life. So, so, so, um, that to me shows marks of, uh, a sense of maturity and, you know, some restore some restoration. I think, you know, and, and again, it comes down to like this sense of like, you know, the things that have value for us are can, can be worn. You know, Like, my son's got a got, you know, a favorite stuffed animal that is horrible. I wanna wash it every time I see it. You know, it's just like, we get rid of this thing. No, it's just, there's something about this particular stuffed animal that I just cannot part ways with. And so that's, that's kind of how we don't wanna get rid of our vinky or you know, our blanky, whatever it is. We got . Cause we love itself. , TJ Poon (01:04:53):I was really moved when I read this slide and listened to Rebecca and Danielle talking, I think, um, so I named my daughter Eden. And, you know, the, the meaning of pleasure, delight, just that, that the nature of what we were meant for. And in the end, we find it in the city full of people that look like us and not like us. And the image of that is represented there. And just kind of that shifting from like, our delight is found in this garden where it's just as in God, um, to our delight is in this city and, you know, the lamb of God is their light. All these different images that are really powerful and revolution, I think about that. Like that, that has meaningful too. Uh, just a shifting, um, where is our, where is our pleasure? Where is our delight? How do we come to experience that shaone? And who are the people that we experience that through? Dr. Ernest Gray (01:05:53):That's huge. And I, and I, yeah, and I, it's those people that are really part of that, you know, that space for us, that that really kind of helps us to, you know, experience the full, the sum, the full sum of what shalom means for us. I think that that's really important for us to really, for me especially to, to not shy away from that because I, I I, I, my ma my natural inclination would be to just be very isolated and monastic as opposed to engaged in community . But it's experienced in community and it's experienced together, and it's experienced with other shattered people too. Right. Um, and that to me is where I draw strength and energy and, um, you know, peace from as well. So, thank you, tj. I think yours mm-hmm. , I like what you share there. Danielle (01:06:57):I, I guess I would add like, to that, like, I think so much of my experience is being like in this very moment when I feel joy or maybe shalom or a sense of heaven, even in the moment, because unaware of what, I'm always not aware of what will come next. I don't know. Um, yeah. So just the feeling of heaven is in this moment too, with, you know, in the moment that I get to sit with the four of you, this is a piece of heaven for me, a reflection of hope and healing. Although we haven't even explored the ways we might have, you know, rubbed each other the wrong way. I have a sense that we could do that. And in that sense, that feels like heaven to me in spaces where there could, there are conflict. I'm not saying there isn't just a, just, I think in my own culture, the, that's why Sundays feel so good to me. For instance, when I'm with a couple of other families and we're eating and talking and laughing and, you know, the older kids are playing with the younger kids, like, to me, that feels, oh, that feels good. And, and if, if that was the last thing I felt, I would, that would feel like heaven to me. So I, I think there's also that, I'm not saying we're not going to the city of God, but there's just these momentary times when I feel very close to what I think it, it might mean. Mm-hmm. , Rebecca W. Walston (01:08:41):I, I do think, Danielle, I mean, I resonate with what you're saying. I think, I think the text is very clear that there are these moments, um, along the way. Right? I think that's that sense of, yay, do I walk through the valley of the shadow, Right? I, I will be with you. I, I think like wherever you are in the process, along the journey, the moments where you have a sense of, um, I am with you always. Right? And however that shows up for you in a faith, in a person, in a smile and an expression, in deed, whatever, however that shows up, it definitely, like, if I, I do have a sense of like, things we pick up along the way and, and a sense of final destination all being a part of the, the, the healing, the, like, the journey of repair. Um, and, and I start to think about, um, You know, the story of Joseph is a very significant one to me, has very reflected my own story, and then, then will know what that reference means, um, to me in particular by, you know, the, the sense in, in Joseph of like, what sad to meant for evil, God meant for good, right? And the sense of him naming his two sons, Manas and Efram, and one of them, meaning God has caused me to forget the toilet of my father's house. Um, and God has caused me to prosper in the land of my infliction is the meaning of the other son. And so I do think that there's, there's something in the text even that, that is about the journey and the destination being sweeter and holding something more, um, that than had our, our soul existence only been in Eden, Right? I mean, and, and that isn't to say like, I don't wish for that, you know what I mean? Or that I wouldn't love to be there, but, but I, but I mean like, leave it only to God to, to assert this idea that like, um, all of the rupture holds something more, um, that than life without any, without there ever being any sense of rupture. Right? And I think we're in the category of like, the mysteries of God by I, I think. I think so I think there's, there's such value in the journey in the valleys and what we pick up there about ourselves and God and people in it with us. Um, you know, Yeah. Like that, that feels aspirational to me and also feels true in some senses. You're muted, Ernest. I can't, can't hear you. So I said Dr. Ernest Gray (01:11:33):I was low, I was very low when I said that resonates. I, um, I was thinking about, um, you know, for me in the last few years, you know, Covid has done a, has done an, an immeasurable service in many ways. It has been incredibly harmful for a lot of us, but it's been a, it's done an immeasurable service at the same time, um, to reorient us. Um, for me it is increased my, depend my creaturely dependence on God in a way that here to four I would not have been focused upon. Right? I, you know, I spent 12, 13 years in the, in, in the classroom as a professor teaching, uh, on autopilot, um, from God's word, from, um, and teaching students how to study and think and what, what these words in the Bible say and what they could potentially mean, um, to the best of my ability. But that was autopilot stuff. And I felt insulated, if you will. But, but the repair and the why of the repair, why it's important, why, why the, um, the rupture is necessary, and we can call I, I, I would call covid and the time prior to, and subsequent to be very rupturing, I, I would call it as necessary, because it helped me to see my why and why dependence upon God had it be reframed, refocused, re you know, recalibrated so that I could not, so I could get out of a sense of, um, oh, my training prepared me for this to know my, you know, what I am and who I, what my journey has been, did not prepare me for this, and all the attendant features that have come as a result, the relationships that are broken and realizing that they were jacked up from a long , they were jacked up. I just couldn't see them during all those years. Um, but these remind me of the need for God to be embodied, uh, in my life in a way that, um, I had been maybe not as present with. And I think that that's part of the reason why, um, this is my re my why for repair, is that it creates a better, more relational dynamic between me and God that had I not gone through some rupturing event, I would not have appreciated the value of where I'm at with him now. More than that. I think one other thing is that I think that there's a sense too that there's a, um, there's a heightened awareness of all these other aspects that are coming, that are coming about. My eyes are now not as with, you know, blinders on. Now I can look around and say, Wow, this is a really jacked up place. Where can I help to affect some change? Where could I, you know, where can I put my stubborn ounces? Where can I place you know, who I am and what God has put in me, um, in the way so that I can, um, be a part so that I can help, you know, groups that are hurting, people that are hurting communities that are struggling, Um, and the, like, Jen Oyama Murphy (01:15:19):I'm trying to work this out. So I'm just working it out out loud for you all. But, um, I think kind of pi backing off of Rebecca, your, um, juxtaposition between Eden and City of God, and like, why for repair? I think for me, it's the invitation to both humility and hope. And, and for me, humility, um, often in my story and experience has led to what I felt like was humiliation, right? And the way that I learned culturally to avoid that was, um, to not need to repair, to do everything perfectly. To do everything well, to always get the a plus, you know, to, to not make a mistake where I would need to repair. But there's a desperation and hopelessness that comes with that kind of demand or pressure where, um, it's, it is dirty and painful, and it doesn't have that sense of like, Oh, there can be something of the goodness of God that can restore these parts that are dying or dead back to the land of the living. And, um, I think that the idea of that we're move, it's not binary. I'm not completely broken, and I'm not totally healed, and that there can be, um, hope and humility in making that journey. And if I'm able to make that journey with all kinds of different people, um, how much richer and deeper and broader that experience, that growing of humility, I think that can lead to growth and restoration and learning and healing. That just feeds into the hope, right? The hope that yes, I, I will reach the kingdom of God at the end, and there will be kind of the way that what we'll all be who we were meant to be. And there will be such goodness there, all that will continue to grow. Um, if I can stay kind of on that journey and not feel like, um, not give into the poll to be at one place or the other, you know, where I'm either totally broken and there's no hope or completely healed and there's no humility Dr. Ernest Gray (01:17:54):Sounds like a dash to me, a hyphen space, very much so that that hyphen space does so much, it preaches a better word, really does. Then the opposite ends of those two, those two realities are consum, consum, you know, conclusionary kind of places you wanna be. It's the hyphen that where we, where we ought to be. Rebecca W. Walston (01:18:25):Did you, is that word hyphen intentional? I Dr. Ernest Gray (01:18:31):Think so. I think so. It's the interim, well, we call hyphen the interim, you can call it all of that good stuff. Um, I, I think it's because, you know, whether, you know, whenever we, wherever we frequent a cemetery, we always think about how stoic it is to see the name and the date of birth and the date of death. And that hyphen is, that's what preaches the better word, is the hyphen in between what this person and how they went about their, their lives with their, their ups and downs, their navigation through the world for people like, um, people, for people who have been on the receiving end of, um, of trauma pain, um, and racialized, um, uh, this ambi or dis disor dis dis dis disorientation or trauma , we, we realize that they have a lot more weight to bear and that their experiences were far more complex. Um, and so this makes their stories even more winsome and more intriguing for us to learn and know about because we're, we're in relationship with them. Um, but the hyphen is the best place to be. And I find that in many ways, um, that is where real life occurs, and that's where I'm at right now. Um, as, as, as a matter of fact, Rebecca W. Walston (01:19:59):I, I mean, I've, I've heard that it has a very black sermon right there about the hyphen and the dash, right? But it hit me in particular because Danielle knows I often introduced myself as African hyphen American. So that your, that word hyphen hit me in that, in that context. Right. And as I was listening to Jen talk about humility and hope and how she, what she learned of how to settle into that space in her Japanese nest or her Japanese Hy American, I just, it just hit me, it hit me about the hyphenated racialized experience in the US and what you might be suggesting consciously or subconsciously Right. About that being a good place to be. Danielle (01:20:50):Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jen, when you were talking, I was like, wanting to cry. I can still feel the tears. And I was just like, I felt the literal pull, I think at both end of that spectrum, when you talked through them for yourself, I was like, Oh, yeah, that's where I'm, Oh, wait a minute. Then you described the other end, and I was like, Oh, that's where I am . And I was, I think I was like, I was like, Oh, to sit in that, that interim space, you know, the hyphen space, sometimes I have felt like that space would kill me. Mm-hmm. the shame of not knowing how to be one or the other. Mm. Or to try to hold, or to try to explain to someone, you know, I, I think, what is your wife or repair, Why wouldn't I repair? I think of my own, you know, body. And, and, and when Rebecca's talked about not earnest, and, and you, I, I think like I have to be doing that internal work. I mean, because, you know, as you know, if you live in the body of the oppressor and the impressed , how do you make, how do, how do what repair has to be happening? It it, it's, it's happening. And, and if I'm fearful and wonderfully made, then God didn't make me like this on a mistake. It wasn't like, Oh, crap, that's how she came out. Let me see if I can fix it. Hmm. Um, indeed. So those are the things I was thinking as you were talking, Jen. Hmm. Rebecca W. Walston (01:22:47):I, I think Danielle, you're, you're in that sense on the slide of like, any version of repair must work towards the salvation and their redemption of the oppress, the oppress onlooker. Right. And that there has to be, we, we have to have a sense of categories for all of those things. Dr. Ernest Gray (01:23:10):And the work by each, I wonder, which, you know, I'm always trying to determine which one is gonna be the easier to repair, which, which person are you, the pressor or onlooker? And we would just assume that the onlooker would have the least amount of, but they might actually bear the biggest burden is because they're gonna have to deal with assumptions and biases that they have accumulated that are entrenched and that they don't wanna deal with and come to terms with. That's why it's easier to simply, you know, just lull their response or, or stay silent as the, as the notion below here says it's, it's easier to stay silent, to be, you know, resign, say it's not my issue than it is to get in and, and, and to really unearth whether or not this is actually something in internally that they're wrestling with that's far more scary to do. Um, and the majority of people might have some, this is a generalization, but it seems to me like the majority of people don't wanna really, really do that work, Danielle (01:24:19):Um, because all of us have been onlookers to one another's ethnic pain, whether we like it or not. I know I have absolutely. I've been an onlooker mm-hmm. , Yep. Mm-hmm. . Yep. And, and just, and then that's where you have where to step in is just like, Oh, that does not feel good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. try to own that. My part in that, Dr. Ernest Gray (01:24:45):Ladies, it's almost a sense of a little bit of a reunion that I've had with you this afternoon, but I do need to go and pick up my two boys. And so for this part, I'm gonna need to jump off of the, um, of this, of this great time together, and hopefully I'll be invited back again so that my, um, so that we can, we can continue the conversation. Danielle (01:25:37):I will. Did you all have any final thoughts? TJ Poon (01:25:44):I've been noodling something since the very first slide, which is just like this distinction. I don't know if it's a useful one between disruption and rupture And how like rupture needs to be repaired, but a lot of times repair can't happen without sub disruption. And, you know, that first slide talks about how we kind of pathologized or like said negative anything that has to do with rupture, but you can't, like, you literally can't, um, repair without disrupting the systems. And I think in white imagination, those things are often made equivalent. Like anything that's disruptive is rupturing uncomfortable. Like, I need, I, I need to fix it as fast as possible. Um, versus no, actually this disruption is an invitation to something different. It's a disruption that actually will lead to an authentic repair or real repair as opposed to like, what calls dirty pain, like silence avoidance. Um, so I've just been thinking about those two different words and what they can mean. Mm-hmm. , Rebecca W. Walston (01:27:07):I like that distinction a lot. It, it feels almost like trying to get at like harm versus hurts, right? And, and try to have a sense of like, um, you know, are we always in the category of this is bad and awful and it needs to see immediately, Right. Or are there places where actually good and we need to let it play it itself out, So, yeah. Jen Oyama Murphy (01:27:35):Mm-hmm. Well, I think that also connects maybe fun too to Rebecca. You are, um, differentiating between like the demand to return to Eden or the like blessing of being on the journey to the city of God. Cause if the demand is to return to Eden, then anything disruptive is gonna feel, not like Eden, Right? But if, if it is about growing and learning and healing and developing on the road to the city of God, then disruption is part of that process, then it's something that may be hard, um, but it's necessary and hopeful or has the potential to be that. Rebecca W. Walston (01:28:22):Yeah. It, it does pivot something for me pretty significantly to be, to be talking about like the, my destination isn't actually Danielle (01:28:40):New ladies are really smart. can bottle all that up. I like that. TJ Poon (01:28:53):I mean, Jen, when you were like, I'm just working this out. And then you said something super deep and profound. I think what I was, what I was struck about what you said was like, um, just the demand to not ever need to repair like that internal pressure demand. And that's, that's how I feel all the time. Like, just, just be perfect and then you all need to repair mm-hmm. . Um, and just what, uh, yeah, just what a demand. What a, a burden. I don't, I don't know all the words, but like, it, it's dehumanizing cuz what it means to be human on this earth is to have disrupt, is to repair. Like you are going need to because we're all, we're all humans. And so there, when you said that, I was like, Oh, that's so important. Danielle (01:31:07):Because everything feels so lost. But I hope that this will be an encouragement to people about a conversation. Hopefully it'll feel like they can access something in themselves where.  

Bios:Ernest Gray Jr. is the pastor of Keystone Baptist Church located in the West Garfield Park neighborhood of Chicago.  He is a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute with a degree in Pastoral Ministries, and a graduate of Wheaton College with a Master's Degree in Biblical Exegesis.  He completed his PhD coursework at McMaster Divinity College and is currently completing his thesis within the corpus of 1 Peter. Mr. Gray has taught in undergraduate school of Moody in the areas of Hermeneutics, first year Greek Grammar, General Epistles, the Gospel of John and Senior Seminar. It is Mr. Gray's hope to impact the African American church  through scholarship. Teaching has been one way that God has blessed him to live this out.  Ernest is also co-host of the newly released podcast Just Gospel with an emphasis upon reading today's social and racial injustices through a gospel lens. www.moodyradio.org    Jen Oyama Murphy  "My love of good stories led me to Yale University where I received a BA in English. Upon graduation, I felt called to bring individual stories into relationship with the Gospel Story, and I have worked in the areas of campus and church ministry, lay counseling, and pastoral care since 1989. Over the years, I sought a variety of ongoing education and training in the fields of psychology and theology, including graduate classes at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and Benedictine University. I also completed the Training Certificate and Externship programs at The Allender Center, and I previously held roles on their Training and Pastoral Care Team, as Manager of Leadership Development, and most recently as the Senior Director of The Allender Center. Believing that healing and growth happens in the context of relationship, I work collaboratively to create a safe coaching space of curiosity and kindness where honesty, care, desire, and imagination can grow. Using my experience and expertise in a trauma-informed, narrative-focused approach, I seek to help people live the story they were most meant for and heal from the ones they were not. I am passionate about personal support and development, particularly for leaders in nonprofit or ministry settings, including lay leaders who may not have a formal title or position. I'm especially committed to engaging the personal and collective stories of those who have felt invisible, marginalized, and oppressed. I love facilitating groups as well as working individually with people. I currently live in Chicago with my husband, and we have two adult daughters.Rebecca Wheeler Walston lives in Virginia, has completed  Law School at UCLA, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister. Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts.TJ Poon serves with Epic Movement, where we both serve on the People & Culture Team (HR). TJ is the Director ofPeople & Culture and and also serves on Epic's leadership team to provide her leadership, wisdom, vision and direction for the ministry.Danielle:SO on screen and feel free to add to your introductions. Uh, Ernest, um, Dr. Gray is someone I'm met Yeah. Um, on screen during one of our cohort, um, virtual weekends and just listening to him talk, I think he was in the Caribbean when he was giving us the lecture mm-hmm. and talking about theology, and I was frantically taking notes and eventually resorted to screen shooting, like snapping pictures of the screen as he was talking. Uh, and then like quickly texting some friends and my husband to say, Hey, I was learning this that. And so that was kinda my introduction to Dr. Gray. And then we of course had a chance to meet in Montgomery. Um, yes, my respect just, uh, grew for you at that point. Um, the ability for you to be honest and be in your place of location Absolutely. And show up and show up to present, it felt like a theology that had life, and that feels different to me. So, um, thank  Dr. Ernest Gray:Thank You for that.  Thank you for that. No, I'm, it's a pleasure to join you all. I, I see some familiar faces and I'm excited to be with you all, and, um, yeah, I'm, um, yeah, I'm, I'm thankful that you thought me, um, thought my voice would be, uh, would be relevant for this conversation. So I'm, I'm grateful to be here and, um, yeah, I'm, I'm here to, um, to both participate and to, um, to learn as much as I can in this moment, so thank you.  Danielle:Mm. You're welcome. Um, and then there's Rebecca Wheeler Walton who is the boss, and she's both smart and witty and funny and kind and extremely truthful in the most loving ways, and so have highest regard for her. Back when I answered the phone, Luis would be like, Is that Rebecca  Yeah. Um, yeah, and tj, uh, TJ had gotten to know TJ over the last year and, um, you know, she's kind of introduced as like an admin person, but I've quickly learned that she, her heart and her wisdom are her strongest attributes and her ability just hang in the room in a tough conversation, um, has, I've just had an immense respect and hope for, for the future by, in getting to know ut j mm-hmm. touching. Yeah. And then at the top, y'all on my screen is Jen Oyama Murphy. She was my first facilitator at The Allender Center. Um, and she showed up in her body and her culture, and I was like, Man, that is freaking awesome. Um, and I wanna, I wanna do what she's doing with other people in this world. Um, Jen loved me and has loved me, and I don't think it can be overstated how wise and patient she is. Um, and just like when I say the word intuition, I mean it in a sense of like, deep wisdom. And, and that's, that's like, I keep searching. Like I wanna have access to that me. So, so thank you, Jen. Yeah.  Jen Oyama Murphy :Hmm. Gosh. Thank you, Danielle. Thanks. Well, I'm, I feel very privileged to be a part of the conversation, so thanks for inviting me.  Danielle:Yeah. So, I mean, I, Ernest you probably didn't get a chance to watch this clip, but it's this clip we're not gonna show. We talked about it. It's about, um, it's the border and there's like a three minute time, um, like timer for people to cross the border and hug each other and interact with one, one another on the southern border. And so there's like a tiny clip of this here. And, um, it's Latinx Heritage Month, and it felt really important to me to have a diverse conversation around repair, because Latin X is, um, Asian, it's black, white, it's European, it's white, it's indigenous. And I feel like, you know, in this conversation, what does repair look like for a Latinx person? And what, what does arriving, you know, to heaven mean, you know mm-hmm.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Indeed.  Danielle:So, yeah. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And I have the slides up, but I, you know, I wanna hear your all thoughts on, on it, you know? Do you mind hitting the next slide, Tj?  Dr. Ernest Gray:Very good.  Danielle :Do you want me to keep moving? ? Yeah. Um, this is this guy that isn't red in, uh, Western psychology, although he was European descent and lived in El Salvador. He was murdered by, um, CIA operatives in El Salvador. And, uh, he was a liberation psychologist. And partly part of the reason he wasn't as well known here is because he gave almost all his lectures in Spanish on purpose. Hmm. Because he wanted to be rooted in a Latin American tradition. Um, and so I thought it was important to just lay the foundation for what rupture and repair means. He had a real vision for psychology to be a liberating movement, not just one that maintains like, Here, let me get you healed so you can function in this oppressive system. Like, um, yeah.  Dr. Ernest Gray :You know, I think about that kind of, um, movement, which seems to me has always been very much so a part of, you know, this resilience, this resilience push amongst indigenous people, groups, communities. It, it, it is a, it is a sense to regain their, um, their humanity when they've been trampled on, when that humanity has been trampled on. And so there are different epox I think that I've seen as of recent, um, where we see that this has come to a head. You know, I'll never forget the, in the, the ministry of, um, Dr. Cera Na Padilla, um, who was, who just passed a couple of years ago. And, um, I was fortunate to have a class by him, but it was his eyeopening class, uh, a world Christian perspective that gave me the ability to, um, um, hear just how liber the gospel can be and how restorative to the humanity of people groups that have been trampled upon, uh, actually is.  So I think that repair in many ways is just the, is just the acknowledgement that, hey, something in me is not right. And, um, it's not any one person. It feels as though this is a, um, this is the water in which I'm swimming, Like the water I'm in is like rotten. Um, and, and I wanna be rejuvenated through a, a water that, that refreshes and rejuvenates my life. Um, and that, that that water that it seems to be about is my aka the systemic kind of components that have trampled upon, um, indigenous groups. But that first step is acknowledgement, saying, Hey, um, something's broken in me. And it's not any one person. It's more of a system. It's more of the water in which I'm in. Um, that needs to be, uh, ameliorated. It needs to be, um, you know, I, I need it. It, I can't live like this. I can't, I can't, I can't live like this anymore.  Um, I think as well, there's, there's a lot of things that I think are many, very much so, um, um, you know, kind of tied to this, this equilibrium. I think, um, when I, when I hear about these struggles and I hear about how people are trying to, um, go for at least make sure that they are, um, pursuing their inherent dignity and worth it, it, it shouldn't seem as though it, it's such a, um, a, um, there's so much resistance to that work. I mean, where, as human beings, we really want to be affirmed. We wanna be loved, we wanna be cherished, very, very basic things. Um, but to have, but to have resistance to that amongst systems also shows that we, we've got to pull together to be able to make a, uh, a concerted effort towards bringing back a type of, um, um, regenerative and healing kind of ethic to our communities that are shattered, that have been broken.  And I, and I, and I, and I, and I personally see this right now as it relates to, you know, my community, which is African American, and I personally feel this, especially when I think about, um, people who are in survival mode and making bad choices. I always wanna pause and, and tell people, Listen, do not, don't, don't blame the victim. I mean, you're looking at William Ryan's book here as Right in front of me blaming the victim, Right. And I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna blame the victim because they don't, people don't wake up in the morning and think, you know, I wanna go out here and commit crime. I wanna do things I don't want, I don't wanna do these things just because I'm inherently, um, you know, um, malevolent person. No, I wanna do these things cause I'm, I'm trying to survive.  And, and it, and there, that signals to me as well that there's something broken, uh, in the social order. And that these communities in particular, the most vulnerable ones, uh, shouldn't be subjected to so much, um, to, to these things, to, to where they have to resort to violence, crime, or, um, you know, pushing against laws, unjust laws, if you will, uh, that people see is, um, oppressive. Shouldn't we should demo dismantle the laws that, that create these things. So that was a very, Forgive my thought, forgive my, um, thought, thought there, but I, I just wanted to kind of think and, and draw out some, some, some broad strokes there.  Jen Oyama Murphy:Yeah. I, I resonate with that a lot, Dr. Gray. I mean it, like, we've all been trained in kind of this narrative, um, therapeutic way of working with people. And so much of my experience has been looking at that story only as that story and not being able to look at it within a culture, within a system, and even within the context in which that story is being read. So if you are a person of culture in the group, you probably are at best, one of two in a group of eight mm-hmm. . And that has a story and a system all to itself. So even the process of engaging someone's story, even if you are mindful of their culture and the systemic story that that's in, you're also then in a, in a story that's being reenacted in, in and of itself, you know, that, um, I mean, Danielle and Rebecca know cuz they were in my group.  Like, you, you have best are one of two. And even within that too, you're probably talking about two different cultures, two different systems. And so that sense of, um, having repair, healing feel really contained to not just your story, but then a dominant structure within where that healing is supposed to happen. Like, it's, it's the water. Most of us have swarm in all our life, so we don't even know right. Where the fish that's been in that water all the time. And so we don't even know that that's happening. And so when, when the healing process doesn't seem like it's actually working, at least for me, then I turn on myself, right? That there's something bad or wrong about me, that, that what seems to be working for everyone else in the room, it's not working for me. So I must be really bad or really broken.  And it doesn't even kind of pass through my being of like, Oh, no, maybe there's a system that's bigger than all of us that's bad and broken. That needs to be addressed too. So I, I love what this cohort is trying to do in terms of really honoring the particular personal story, but also then moving out to all the different stories, all the different systems that are connected to that personal story. I'm, I'm grateful for that. And it's hard work, hard, hard, complicated work that it's full of conflict, Right. And math, and it's not gonna have five steps that you can follow and everything's gonna work out well for, for everyone. I mean, it's, it's gonna be a mess. You guys are brave.  Dr. Ernest Gray:This final statement here about overthrowing the social order not to be considered as pathological. Um, you know, that, that, that last part there, uh, the conflicts generated by overthrowing the social order not to be considered pathological people. I mean, I think that there's a sense that people really don't want to have to resort to this language of overthrow if these systems were not malevolent from the very first place. Right. And, and I think about this, how, how the exchange of power has become such a, has created such a vacuum for, um, the most vulnerable groups to be, um, um, you know, maligned taken advantage of, pushed under the bus or where's eradicated, um, without, with, you know, with impunity. And I think about that, that there, there has to be, in many ways when we see the e the various, um, TIFs and the various, um, contests that arise around the, around the globe, there seems to be a common theme of oppressive oppression, power abuse, um, and then it's codified into laws that are saying, Well, you're gonna do this or else.  And I guess that's, it's, it's almost as if there's a, a type of, um, expectation that this is, this is the only means that which we have to overthrow social orders that need to be, um, uh, eradicate need to be done away with. So, so there's, there's a lot of truth to this, this, this, this last part especially as well. Um, but I, I think that's what we see, um, constantly. One of the things that's popping in my mind right now is the ACON in South Africa. Um, and they're, they're dominant, The Dutch domination of South Africa and the indigenous group there, the, the South Africans, um, of af of, of, um, of black descent and how their struggles have ha have, you know, just constantly been, um, you know, so, so, so rife with tension and there's still tension there. And so it just takes on a different form.  I, I think that there's a lot of things that we can learn from the various contests, but we might, when we strip away layers of the onion, we might find that a lot of it is the way in which this power dynamic and power exchange, or lack thereof, is actually going on. Um, and again, we can call that what we want to, we can say it's Marxist. We can say it's, um, you know, um, critical, but critical theory helps us to, helps us with some of this to see in which power way in which power is leveraged and the abuse of it. Lots of it.  Rebecca W. Walston :I mean, I think, um, Ernest, if I can call you back if I've earned right quite yet, maybe not . Oh,  You got that right . Um, I, you know, I think what, what what hits me about your statement is, is, is the sense that, um, that there's that power and a sense of overthrow inextricably tied together in ways that I, I don't think they should be, I do not think that they were meant to be. Um, and I, it, it makes me think of a conversation that I had with the Native American, uh, uh, um, friend. And we were, we were together in a group of, um, diverse people watching, um, a documentary about a group of multi-ethnic, a multi-ethnic group engaging around race and racism. And we were watching the, um, this group of people sort of engage about it. And, um, I was, by the time the thing was over, like I was full on like angry, all kinds of things activated in me a around the Black American experience.  And I turned to this Native American guy sitting next to me, and, and I said, I'd like to know from you, what is your version of 40 acres in a mule? A and, and I said, you know, in, in my community, like, we have a thing about 40 acres in a mule, that kind of encapsulates a, a, a sense of what was taken from us as, as enslaved Africans, and some sense of what it means to, to start to repair that breach, right? And, and to give some sense of restitution. And it's codified in this sense of 40 acres and mule given to freed, uh, newly freed Africans as, as a way to, to launch into a sense of free existence. And I said to him, If I were you, I'd be like, pissed. Yeah. I, as an indigenous man, like, I'd want all of my stuff back, all of it, all of the land, everything. Like all the people, everything, everything. And so, I'd like to know from you, what is your version of 40 acres in the mill? What's your measurement of what it would look like to start to, to repair and to return to indigenous people? What was taken from them?  Hmm. And this man looked me dead in my face and said, We, we have no equivalent because the land belongs to no one. It was merely ours to steward, so I would never ask for it back.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Wow. Floored. Mm-hmm.  Rebecca W. Walston:A and I'm still by that it's been maybe six, seven years. And I've never forgotten that sentiment and the sense that, um, I, I wanted to sit at his feet and learn and not ask more questions. I just, and just the sense of like, what could my people learn from the indigenous community and how might it allow us to breathe a little deeper and move a little freer it? And so I, you know, I hope you guys can hear that as not like a ding against my community and what we're asking for, but just a sense of for how another people group steps into this question of rupture and repair that is radically different from, from my experience, and causes me to pause and wonder what must they know of the kingdom of God that would allow them to hold that kind of, that kind of sacred space that feels unfamiliar to me,  Dr. Ernest Gray:That is quite revolutionary. And if are representative of this type of, and again, those are just, those are just the terms we use to, to talk about repair and, um, and re restoration. I wonder if the, if see what I, what I'm struggling with is that what we are, what we wrestled through as an African American context was, and the vestiges is of, um, ownership. It's ownership and, um, ownership of bodies and ownership of land. And the indi, the aboriginal people of America, the Native Americans, they have this really robust sense of it belong. If that's the case that belongs to no one, my next question would be then, and again, if I'm thinking about ownership, well, that it's the damning sense of what ownership did to their communities, how they were decimated, how they were ransacked, how, how, um, you know, the substance abuse has ran rampant.  So if from, if it were me, I would ask a follow up question to this individual and ask why. Well then if the land is not an issue and it's not a, it's not a monetary thing that needs to be repaired, what about the damage? How will we go about putting a value upon or putting some type of thing upon the decimation of, of communities, the, um, the homes. Let's take, you know, Canada is r in pain, especially with the Catholic church and what was done in certain orphanages. Okay. And so, um, if not a monetary thing, what would be the re another response to repair the brokenness that the people have experienced? And I, and I, I don't, I understand the land is one thing, but there's also a people that have been shattered absolutely, absolutely shattered. And, and I think that still remains a question for me.  And again, it's a perennial question that is affecting multiple communities. Um, but these are felt more acutely, especially as, um, you know, Africans, uh, in the transatlantic route. And, and, and aboriginal native Americans who were, who are, um, you know, no one discovered them here. But this ownership piece is something that I think is what is inherent to whiteness, and it has created this vacuum. And why we need to have a sense of, um, you know, how it impacts every single debate. Every single debate. I would go down a rabbit trail about, you know, gospel studies and New Testament studies, but that's just, it's all, it's there too. It's, it's right there, too.  Danielle:TJ, can you hit the next slide? I think we're into that next slide, but I think what I'm hearing, and then maybe Jen has a, a follow up to this, is, I, I think part of my response from the Latinx community is we're both perpetually hospitable and perpetually the guest. Mm. Mm-hmm. We don't own the house. Mm. And we, and yet there's a demand of our hospitality in a house that's not ours. Mm. And there's a sense of, I think that comes back to the original cultures that we come from, of this idea that you showed up here, let me give you food. Let me, let me have you in, let me invite you in. And in the meantime, you took my, you took my space and, and you put a, you put a stake in it that said, Now this is mine and you're my guest. And now there's different rules, and I may be polite to you, but that does not equal hospitality. Right. And so, and I don't know, I don't have the resolution for that, but just this feeling that, that Latinx communities are often very mi migratory. Like, and, you know, we have, then you get into the issue of the border and everything else. But this idea that we, we don't own the house, and yet there's a, there's an, there's a demand for our hospitality wherever we go.  Rebecca W. Walston:What's your sense, Danielle, cuz you said, um, both there's a demand on the hospitality and also something of that hospitality hearkening back to your indigenous culture from Right. In the place where you're not a guest, you're actually at home. So is that a both and for you  Danielle:Mm-hmm. , because I think that's the part that's, that's robbed the meaning, The meaning that's made out of it is robbed. I think sometimes the hospitality is freely given. And, and that's a space where I think particularly dominant culture recognizes that. Right. And so there's, there's the ability to take, and then, then there's the complicity of giving even when you don't want to. And also like, then how does a, and this is very broad, right? And the diaspora, right? But the sense of like, the demand, if you don't give your hospitality then at any point, because you're the perpetual guest, they can shut you out and you can never return. So I haven't quite worked that through, but those are some thoughts I was having as you all were speaking.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Mm. I think that's, I think that's very keen, uh, you know, as a keen observation, my wife is, you know, from a Caribbean context, and so there's the hospitality notion wherein it's, I mean, that's just, it's irrespective of what you feel. This is just what you do. And so I think that it's, when it's taken advantage of or hoisted upon people in a way that is saying, Oh, you must do this, that harm can enue. But, um, there's a, there's a, for me, it's, it's, it's really, really foreign to, from the outside looking in to understand how that culture, um, has, um, historically genuflected or just kind of, um, it can become a part of weakness. It can become a part, or it can be become abused. Especially when this is an expectation of the culture. Um, and I think that's where the harm lies, is that there, there has to be some measures of, of like,  When conditions are, are, you know, almost in a sense of like, this isn't automatic. And it, and then there needs to be some kind of, some kind of ways in which it can remain protected. So that's to not be abused by those who know that this is an expectation of the community. Um, but yeah, that's, that's from the outside looking in, it's hard. My only connection is through, you know, my wife and her culture and seeing how that is, you know, I don't care what's going on inside. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna be hospital, You're gonna host, you're gonna continue to be, you're gonna reach out. You're gonna continue to be that person because that's what's expected of you.  Jen Oyama Murphy:I mean, Danielle as a Japanese American. I mean, I feel that bind of, I mean, it's not even perpetual guest for, I think Asians often. It feels like perpetual alien. Um, and, and yet, you know, there are cultural expectations and norms, you know, among the Japanese, around what it looks like to welcome someone into your home, what it means to be gracious and deferential, and that, So there's a whole culture that's, um, informing of a way, a style of relating that I think to Dr. Gray's point can be taken advantage of. Um, and can, I think be in some ways, consciously or unconsciously used by, um, that culture to kind of escape wrestling with the experience of, of marginalization and abuse and trauma. Because there's a culture that can give you some sense of safety and containment and soothing. If you go back to what, you know, um, culturally, I mean, after the internment camps, the incarceration of the Japanese during World War ii, that's exactly like what happened is the, the idea of, you know, being polite, being deferential, working hard, using productivity as a way to gain status and safety, and in some ways, right, taking the bait to, to be, to like out white, white people.  We're gonna be better citizen than the white people. And like, what that cost the Japanese Americans who, if you had asked them what kind of repair did they want, they would say none. We're just so grateful to be able to be in this country. It, you know, the, the grandchildren of the people that were incarcerated that kind of ly rose up and said like, This is wrong. And so it's just, it, it feels so complicated and like such a, such a math, um, in it. And that's where I feel like, um, learning not just the, the white Asian story, right? But having exposure and experiences and relationships with, um, a variety of different ethnicities and being able to learn from their histories, their culture, their way of, um, engaging trauma, working through a healing process, and not staying in a single lane in my culture only anymore than I wanna stay in a single white Western culture only.  But being really open to learning, growing. I mean, my experience with you, Danielle, and you, Rebecca, even in my group, right, opened me up to a whole different way of engaging story and working with the, um, methodology that we had been learning. And I'm so grateful I wouldn't have had to wrestle or contend with any of that if I hadn't been in relationship with both of you who have a different culture than I do, and a different style relating and a different way of responding to things than I do. That was so informative for me in broad slu, um, opportunity to really first own that there is a rupture, and then what it looks, what it could look like to repair. And that I didn't only have two, two options like my Japanese American way or the, the White Western way that I had learned all my life.  Rebecca W. Walston:I resonate with that, Jen. I think that, um, what comes to my mind is the sense of Revelation seven, nine, um, and at the throne of grace at the end of this, that identifying monikers every tribe and every tongue mm-hmm. . And, and it causes me to wonder why that moniker, why is it that the identification that the throne of grace is tribe and come. Right? And, and I think it hints at what you just said, this sense of like, there's a way in which this kind of hospitality shows up in each culture, um, in, in a way that I think each culture holds its own way of reflecting that text, um, in a way that is unique, um, in the sense that we won't have a full and complete picture of hospitality until we have a sense of how it shows up in every tribe and every time. Um, and, and so I love that that image from you of like, what can I learn from, from you as a Japanese American, and what can I learn from Danielle? What can I learn from tj? What can I learn from Ernest and, and how they, they understand, uh, and embody that with, with the sense of like, my picture will be a little bit clearer, a little bit more complete for having, having listened and learned.  And I, I do think we're talking in terms of hospitality about sort of, to me, the connective tissue between a erector and a repair is really a sense of resiliency. And, and it feels to me a little bit like the, there's a way where we can talk about hospitality that is really about, um, something of a God given capacity to navigate a rupture, whether it's individual or collective in a, in a way that allows for hopes, for pushes, for some sense of repair. And, you know, I was listening to Ernest talking, you know, I feel like I can hear Michelle Obama saying, when they go low, we go high. Right? And that is a, that is, it's a, it's a different kind of hospitality, but it feels like, feels like hospitality than the infant, right? It, it feels like I won't give in, um, to, to this invitation to join the chaos. I, I, I will, um, be mindful and thoughtful and intentional about how I move through it so that I don't find myself, uh, joining joining in it, but actually standing against it. And that, that feels very hospitable to me. To, to stand on the side of what is true and right. And honoring and, and, and not not joining the fray.  Danielle:You can see how our collective ruptures that we've all described, and I know TJ, you haven't spoken yet, um, how our trauma rubs up against one another and likely is in a heated moment, is very triggering.  If I'm in a, if Jen and I are in a space where we feel like we have to stay, keep our heads low, because let's say I have a family member, um, who's undocumented, right? Or Jen has a memory of, I don't know, a traumatic experience dealing with dominant culture. And we're with, you know, like you say Rebecca, like our African hyphen American friends, and they're like, Come on, let's go get it. Mm-hmm. , you can feel the rub of what repair might look like, and then there's a fracture between us. Mm-hmm. . If we don't, that's, I mean, and then the hard thing that I've been challenged lately to try to do is stay really close to my experience so I have a sense of self so that I can bring that full self to you and say like, I feel this way, and then I can more, more be able to listen to you if I can express a more truer sense of what I'm feeling. Does that make sense?  Dr. Ernest Gray:Perfect.  I think, I think, um, yeah, I, I, I think about the triggering aspects of how we have been collectively kind of retraumatized. You know, when you think about, you know, this since Trayvon Martin and and beyond here in America with African American context, we've just been trying to figure out how to stay alive and t-shirts keep printing regarding, um, you know, can't go to, can't go to church, can't go to a park, can't do this, can't do that, can't breathe. And it's almost as if it's, it's exhausting. Um, but it's entering into that space with other groups, other communities that creates a sense of solidarity, which is sorely needed. Because we would assume, and we would make this as this assumption, like, Oh, well, you don't have it so bad. That's not true. It looks different. It feels different. And until we can, at the same time, um, I like what you said about own, what we are feeling while we are in that moment, it allows us to at least get it out there so that we can then be active engagers with others and not just have our own stuff, you know, uh, for stalling, any meaningful connection.  I wanna think that there's a sense that, um, because, you know, our expressions in every way, whether it's hospitality or whether it's in the way in which we deal with, um, the various cultural phenomenons that we're closely associated with, is that these create the mosaic. If we, back to Rebecca's idea of Revelation seven, nine, these re these is why I love mosaics is because the full picture of our, um, similar, similarly expressed experiences do not look the same, but when they're all put together, eventually we'll see the, the picture more fully. And I think that that's the key is that it, it's so easy for us to be myopic in a way in which we look at everyone else's, or especially our own, to where we can't see anybody else's. That that creates this isolation, insular kind of isolation idea of, Well, you don't have it as bad as I do. Or they're not as, they're not as shaken as this community or that community or this community. Um, and wherein there's some truth to that, Um, if we're going to regain a sense of human, our full humanity, we've gotta figure out ways to, to do that active listing so that our ours doesn't become the loudest in the room.    

And this week  you're going to listen in on a conversation between myself,  Rebecca Wheeler Walston, and TJ Poon. We're all part of a project we've been working on together for over a year now. And, and as part of that project, we're exploring the Latinx experience in, in this time. And so what, what we're doing in this conversation is kind of fleshing out, like, what does it mean to have an intercultural conversation in with the primary lens of Latinx culture?Rebecca Wheeler Walston:Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts. Rebecca lives in Virginia, has completed  Law School at UCLA, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister.TJ Poon: Danielle (00:12):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and healing. And this week, uh, you're going to listen in on a conversation between myself, uh, Rebecca Wheeler Walston, and TJ Poon. We're all part of a project we've been working on together for over a year now. And, and as part of that project, we're exploring the Latinx experience in, in this time. And so what, what we're doing in this conversation is kind of fleshing out, like, what does it mean to have an intercultural conversation in with the primary lens of Latinx culture?Rebecca (00:52):Right? It it reminds me what that, um, the, the, the, uh, Latinx woman who we saw this weekend. I don't know, I'm not sure I remember where she's from particularly, but how she was talking about how, like in Spanish, the, the wording is different. Therefore, what I interpret or what I metabolized right, is different. That was brilliant.Danielle (01:18):Mm-hmm. . Okay. I love what you just said, Rebecca. And then tj, I'd like you to hear your thoughts on this, but part of what I think I'm hoping for in saying this is a space for you to even come in and, and say, like, in the African H and American experience, here's where I resonate. Mm. But here's where I don't resonate if you don't resonate. So I, I think this wasn't outright said in the African American experience about the psychological lens, but I do think it was implied and it was there. And so I think this is a chance for us to collaborate and hopefully pull people together despite differences. So that's something I'm wondering about, but I I didn't wanna just throw that out there in the moment.Rebecca (02:11):What do you mean by a psychological lens?Danielle (02:14):Because in the Western European format, pretty much the only person of color I read, and the only person of color I read from a psychology standpoint was re men. Mm-hmm. , every single other person in literature was white, white female, white male philosophers, European philosophers here and there. Someone Spanish, but white. And what I'm saying is that European Americans don't own healing practices. And oftentimes what I've learned in the space of a psychological lens, I've found it in my community that has a far longer history and with different language. And, and so even when we talk about like alignment, I mean, doesn't that sound like Dan Siegel to you? Doesn't that sound like Shar to you? Yeah. But they aren't citing as techs and South American indigenous peoples. And I, I have no doubt that that is likely found in African American communities as well. And so I, I wanted to give the participants, at least La Latinx participants and hopefully bridge some gaps here and have people know, like, I'm not just stepping into a healing practice that is made by European white men. This is a, this healing practice. Actually, European white men, like a lot of things took it and they reworked it in their culture, which fine, but we also own part of that history. We own part of the way we heal. This is not original to it.Rebecca (03:59):That's the part where I feel like, again, like throwing an accusation that such, such as white is, um, among other things, it is problematic because unless you've done the research to, in what you're telling me is that the very origin of something that you're, you're discussing actually came out of European culture and only outta European culture, then the statement is just outright inaccurate, right? Mm-hmm. . And in some ways, you are actually perpetuating supremacy by, by, by perpetuating the, the lie that the thing we're talking about is, is unique to, to people of European or white folk. Right. Or however. Um, and so stop doing that. Right? Right. But, and so, so yeah. So you're asking me what is the African American equivalent to alignment, toka testimonial, andDanielle (05:02):Like trust.Rebecca (05:03):Yeah. You're asking me that?Danielle (05:05):Yeah. Cuz I mean, I don't know. But even in watching high on the hog mm-hmm. , and they're in this, they go to this one church setting, right? I don't know if you remember it. And it's like, got just the pillars left. And it was a, a place where they imagine one of the first quote unquote, first established African churches were in the south, and they talked about they had like, images of people dancing in that space mm-hmm. . And I was imagining that when I wrote this, things like that came to me as perhaps examples of heart to heart listening. Although it didn't look like, let's be honest, when Mexicans are hard to heart listening, we don't sit down. Mm. You know, we're moving around, we're talking, and, and we don't wait for you to finish your sentence necessarily.Rebecca (06:00):Right? So the thing I could say about that, the thing I would say about Plactica, right? Um, twice now, in the past week, I have had an older black woman say to me, I, I came to lay my eyes on you. What they expressly said was to put an eye on you and they point to one eye, right? And it's this sense that I need, I need to see you with my own eyes in order to discern or listen to what is happening in, in the space, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, so I think that, that, that might be the sense of heart to heart listening, right? Like, there's something that happens where, Right. That, that's a part of the alignment is I can read with my eyes the, the space, right? And then this thing about testimonial, what comes to my mind is that the phraseology keeping it real, right?This idea that with there, like the story that is being told needs to be a true story. Mm-hmm. , we have lots of, you know, when you hear the snaps and all this, but the sense that something has resonated in my body with the sense of like, now what you just said is that that's the truth, right? Mm-hmm. and, and, and a problem. If that, if that's not what happens, right? To the point that is a compliment. Oh, he keeps it real. She keeps it real. He keeps it 100. Right? It's the basic sense that you're, you are telling, you're, you're saying the story that you're giving is the true word or trues version of what happened. Um, and probably for the last one, in terms of trust or confidence or inclusion, I, I, I would probably say, um, the, the sense when I be like, Oh, that's my girl and we're here. Right? That's, and again, with the eyes, it's something like these two things. If the first two things happen that leaves the door open for a sense of, there, there is a trust and a confidence in a sense that we are in alignment together. Right? Right. And, um, if one of those three things is not legit, then you are out. We are like, we not here. Mm-hmm. , Do you know what I'm saying? I, I mean that's very, uh, colloquial in the language, but I think the, the, the dynamic is true nonetheless.Right? What's the version? And so there is a sense even that my whole body has to be engaged in the process for me to feel this kind of alignment. I need to see it, touch it, taste it, hear it. Like all of my senses need to be engaged before I feel like I could say, Right? And if I, if I don't have that, I don't know. I don't know you. Right? Like, I d know you like that.Danielle (09:03):Mm-hmm. , tj, any thoughts or anything to add or comments? Not yet that I'm enjoying this conversation. I think one thing I wanted to add for Za, like trust is something that happened at my daughter's Za. Now my fam, they're not my family, but I'm calling them my family. They all came and c and Corte, it's their, um, their daughter and their, and their son-in-law came, the son-in-law's white. He's, and he's, he's joined the family. And, uh, they're always telling me like, Hey, he didn't say hi to so and so, can you help him out? You know? So he didn didn'tDidn't speak. So, uh, that's a big thing, right? To say hi to everybody. I'm always saying, Hey, did you say hi to them? He's like, I think I did like brother, like, you better go do it again. They don't feel like you really sent high. He's like, I waved. I'm like, No. They wanna like, no, thatNo. You gotta like shake your hand. And so they're giving, they're giving him hints, right? But they, they're keeping him. They're not, they're not, they're not pushing him out. And so at the point where the dancing was on and the dj, they requested a song and they're like, Sam, Sam, get out there and dance. And Sam was like, Okay. And it's this, it's this, basically it's this Mexican line dance. And he was right on it. He had the whole dance down and everybody cheered for him. They were like, You're in, you're in. And they were going nuts. And afterwards he was glowing. He was so happy. And it, it wasn't a sense of like, if he didn't do it right, he was gonna be ridiculed. It was just like, you're part of us, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so that's kinda what I think too about trust and inclusion, like the trust to share moments like that with someone, even in fun time times, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Does that make sense?Rebecca (11:03):It makes perfect sense.Danielle (11:05):Mm-hmm. , I wish you could see this guideline dance.Rebecca (11:08):It makes perfect sense.Danielle (11:11):And by the way, Mexicans do a lot of line dancing and that's,Rebecca (11:15):I mean, you know, black people know a little bit, just a little bit, just a little bit about my, not that much, just a little bit .Danielle (11:27):Okay. So that feels like good. Um, TJ, can you hit the next slide, please? Yep. Um,Rebecca (11:36):I love that word edited.Danielle (11:38):Mm-hmm. . So I think we can talk about, if you're open to this, and TJ you can feel free to hop in here at any moment. Um, what does it mean to edit or fragment a Latinx story? It means to, there's many Asian identities which are subsumed. The African narrative is often edited out or, or almost like tried to blend in. Um, indigenous narratives are also pulled apart and, and edited out within our collective story. And so therefore we hang onto, I think it feels like if we tell those stories as a community, we won't be able to keep up. We'll be too separate. We won't be able to keep up with a dominant culture that will be too far apart to keep up. That make sense?Rebecca (12:34):No, you, you have to give it to me one more time. What's your sense of the, the, the, like, you feel like you can't keep up.And I, I don't think you're being unclear. I think I can't hear you. So go, go ahead.Danielle (12:51):I think we'll be too divided and we're already divided out. We're already set apart as a community, especially in the United States. And it feels like something I've experienced is, if you further complicate my identity, if you ask me to further, Id like, if you ask me to further step into more marginalized, quote unquote marginalized identities, then not only will I be separated from what I need to survive, which feels like whiteness, I will also be further alienated in my community. Mm.Rebecca (13:28):So what, what's the part that you're, you're, I, I think I'm with you and I, and I feel like I can't hear, not cuz you're not being clear, but like that this is the part where the African American lens is really very, very strong. And so there's a part of me that's like, I, what? So, um, so, and I don't think it's, cuz you're not being clear, I think it's because when you're describing is a little bit foreign to, to the, to the African hyphen uh, um, hyphenated experience. So what, what are you saying? Are you, are you, what's the extra fragmented identity that you're saying you don't wanna step into? Like the, the, the, the thought of like Latin Latinx being a mix of like African and Asian and indigenous identity, it's thatDanielle (14:20):Mm-hmm. that there's no space for Latinx. It feels like there's no space for Latinx in dominant culture as it is.Rebecca (14:32):Right?Danielle (14:32):And if then you have to say, Well actually I'm Chinese and Mexican, now, I'm, now I'm not just stepping further away from whiteness, but I'm also stepping outta my community. Cause that's, that's a learned, unacceptable way to identify.Rebecca (14:51):So, so here's my, here's my question about that. Cause it in some ways, okay, so I say African American, right? And we are so severed from our African-ness, I don't, I don't have the invitation to be like, Oh, I'm Ghanaian and you're Nigerian. And, and even if I knew that, I don't have a sense of what that means. I, I don't, I don't carry in my body a sense of like, that means we can't be friends because Nigerian and Ghanaians have this kind of thing in their history or whatever. I don't have that we're, we are so severed from it that there isn't any real way for us to, to go back. And in some ways we don't. I mean, there's a little bit of it, but nobody really, nobody's really, really, really truly, uh, deconstructing the African American identity that far down to the point that it would actually fracture us.Um, so, so in on the one part, the part why I'm having a hard time hearing what you're saying is, is I'm, what I'm saying is that's far from my experience. Therefore it's far from my lens. Right? But also, here's the thing, I wonder, uh, in her book, Born on the Water, right, the author asserts that something happened in the, in the middle passage on the water of the Trans-Atlantic that actually forged a, a third a new people group that was neither African nor American, but somewhere in the middle. And that, and, and, and so by the time they, they step onto us shores it, it, like, she literally talks about what was many, when they entered the ship in terms of their tribes be like, is fused into one in this hyphenated existence. And by the time they get off the ship, it is, it is the creation of a new people group, which is, it's, it's mildly controversial, but not really.Cuz nobody, even though, even though there's a whole sort of back to Africa and I wanna do the 23 and me thing and find out like what tribe from Ghana I came from, it, it isn't really about that kind of fracturing. Right? And, and so there wasn't people, there's something about what she said that resonates with people enough that you didn't hear any real pushback on, on that ideology. So I'm wondering Right. If I'm wondering about that, I'm wondering about that felt experience and lived reality and if the invitation, even in the loudness experience is to not, not not fracture it that much, Right? Is there some invitation in the text and in the lived experience that is about, we we're not going back to Eden. Mm-hmm. We, we like, we are pressing forward to, to the city of God. And when we get there, your, you will be able to hold and there's absolute invitation from Jesus to hold Mexican American Right? In a way that would allow you to note the Asian ancestry and the African ancestry and whatever in the indigenous ancestry with all the honor and celebration it deserves, and not have that be a fracture.Danielle (18:23):Yeah. I don't think I'm seeing that as the fracture. I'm seeing the fracture coming when we don't acknowledge that yes, we're Mexican, but in Mexico there are 16 cast colors mm-hmm. . And a part of that has to do with how dark you are to how light you are to how your eyes look to how, how your nose looks. And, and I think we cannot forget that we are living into that cast system as a people group. And so I think part of the editing is we, we've edited that out. Like, oh yeah, we're all Mexican, but when you get into our familiesRebecca (19:12):It, it ain't that.It ain't that. No, there's a hierarchy.So is not in, in the going towards it. It's, it's the, the fracture is that being in America in the hyphenated existence right. Is there's perhaps an invitation to edit out some, some of the other parts of your culture. And I think that's true across the whole cohort. I think everybody feels that. I think I, I think it's, it's why even though they have con consistently asked us to get into interethnic conflict, it feels really hard to do it right because, uh, and not just conflict between like blacks and Latinos or Asians, whoever, but conflict like within our own culture. Cause black people got colorism too. It's bad.It's real bad.Danielle (20:10):Yeah. Tj, any thoughts or comments?TJ (20:14):Nope. I had a lot of thoughts while we're talking, but I feel like just moving along, it's good.No, I totally do. Yeah. I have lots of thoughts, but I don't Yeah. Helpful to say. Right.It's a good point. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a, the lot of like, um,If, if, uh, only claiming one identity is also your sort of like, ticket to solidarity or like what you build solidarity around, it is very hard to enter into those other more marginalized identities. I, I mean, I think about that for Asian Americans too, Like how even Asian American is like a term that was made up, but, but part of like, the real benefit of it was solidarity, you know, like becoming a group when this wasn't really a group. And so just there that there's, uh, there's a lot of beauty in that and also a lot of like real messed up step in that. And so like if you, if you are, if you have an identity around which there is some solidarity, like we can rally around, you know, this, um, in a place where we're already marginal, already marginalized. Mm. Yeah. I don't know what your motivation for further marginalizing yourself. Do you know what I mean? Cause like you Yeah. So I think that's complex.Danielle (21:55):Yeah. You said that really well, tj mm-hmm. .Rebecca (22:00):I I think it reads different too in, in different communities. Like, but African American, it is, is a term of respect. And it, and it's also a notation that you are an outsider cuz we don't call each other that mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? So, and, and to me, whenever I say like Asian American, I feel stupid. Like I feel like I'm, I'm entering into the conversation in a way that is unintelligent because I, I, I think it's a dishonor to, to slap that name when what I really wanna know is what country are you from and is it better for me to identify you as Japanese American or Chinese American or Taiwanese than it is for me to say Asian American. You know what I mean? Like, I, I just feel the awkwardness of how's this gonna read again, I think because I'm aware none of these are self named monikers. Mm-hmm. , they're all imposed, but, um, by whiteness. And so it always feels awkward.Danielle (23:09):And I mean the additional con conversation for Latinx, even Latinx, I hate that word, but even the additional conversation is how have people of all these various backgrounds had to rally together to fight western intervention in their cities, in their countries, you know? Mm-hmm. . So they have to rally around that. But even that gets confusing because with the infusion of like money and power from the United States or other outside interests, it even splits. It splits people even more. But I think when people get to the United States, they say stuff like, I'm Cuban, you know, or I'm Mexican. There's not, there's a way of surviving in that.Rebecca (23:56):Right. Plus what do you do with the cause like where I grew up, if you are Puerto Rican on the west coast, that made you Mexican, but if you're Puerto Rican on the east coast, you are black. Like end of story, end of conversation. And so even, even that is like Yeah. Like all, yeah. All the, all those lines, it is different.Danielle (24:26):Yeah. So we'll we can step into that, you know, hopefully a little bit more brief cuz we'll probably run out of time. ButTJ (24:35):Like, I walked with my friend when she was, she's Mexican American, but she's also white and she was like, you know, wrestling through how do I identify myself and when these are the categories, it's really hard to like, I don't know, it just that multifaceted identity thing. How do you talk about racialization as like a part of that, um, when the categories are oppressed and oppressor and you pull both of those in your identity. So I don't know, but those were just thinking about that.Danielle (25:13):I think when I hear you, I think back to what Derek McNeil said to me, that we live in a racialized society and addressing race will take us so far, but it's really our, and it has a limit, but it's really being in our cultures is where we will find healing from the actual trauma. So I, I go back to that a lot and that's why I think it's really important for you and I Rebecca, to talk about, you know, when we talk about the first, like the plaquea and the testimonial on for us to root ourselves in some somewhat of culture in the healing. SoRebecca (25:50):No, it's, it, it, yeah. I mean, I think in some ways we've been asserting that the, the, this whole time, right? This idea that like if you're black, you need lean fully in into that and fully into the ways in which your culture, that culture has made you, made, made pathways towards healing for you mm-hmm. , right? In the way that your culture has understood and made meaning out of your story. Um, and, and, and therefore created avenues of, of, of, of, of healing for you. Right? In, in a sense, you're asking what archetypes right? Ha has, has your culture creative for you. Um, and, and, and, and that the more that we do that, the less dissonance we have, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, and in some ways the very creation of sort of the identity of the oppressed, right? Is the, the, the, the very identity that gets created under the force and weight of oppression is that is what healing looks like, right? I mean that, like, the meaning that gets made out of the identity of the hyphenated existence is to define the harm and then define what it looks like to be healed from itin a way that is unique to the story that you have, Right? And then the truth is the same is true for the majority culture, right? I mean, and the, and the work that will have to be done on behalf of our white brothers and sisters is what does it look like to tell a true story and what does healing look like?, right? And, and I think the, the pitfall is if the invitation outta majority culture is to not tell the true story, if the invitation out of the perpetrator culture is to be dismissive and to live in a level of denial for what the true story is, you never get to those pathways or architects of healing because you, you can't admit that harm has actually been done.Is resiliency, Right? It is the God given capacity to navigate the harm that is embedded in your story. Right? And, and it is this sense that Jesus knew in this world you will have trouble. Like, like it's, it's, it trauma is going to hit you. Right? But, but I have embedded in, in, in, in your collective story at a sense of what healing looks like and redemption looks like for you, Right? And, and, and resiliency is your, is really in some ways the capacity to tap into that mm-hmm. and to leverage itDanielle (28:37):Mm-hmm. . So if you hit the next slide, um, tj, then we have this polyvagal chart, which I think says like our different cultures allow us to be in these different states and, and kind of like what we've talked about before, and that's not wrong. And, and I think, I think what's hard about this is that some of our resiliency has been pathologized.Rebecca (29:06):Yes. Very much so. Right? And the, the simple argument that, uh, because our, our whatever reaction we took in the moment was in fact a reaction to something traumatic is the thing that pathologizes it, right? And, and I, I think that's a mistake. It's like to say that we were kicked out of the garden and because of that, we built, we built a response to that severing that the response itself is pathological. Because our goal is to be back where we were in the garden before sin it, that that's not how the story go. That's not how it works, right? I mean, yes, we were excised from the garden, right? And what's pathological is that she ate the damn apple when God said don't do it. That that part is a problem. But, but, but, but the capacity that we developed to live life outside of the garden is not itself pathological simply because it is in reaction to the fact that we no longer live in the garden, Right?That, like, there will be a reaction and there's good reaction and healthy reaction that it, that is in fact resiliency. And then there are other reactions that are pathological that are problematic and that we do need to address, right? Mm-hmm. . But the simple fact that something is a reaction to a traumatic event does not itself pathologizing mm-hmm. , Right? And this is the part where I, I, I, tide tribute has a strong, um, and there's a line in the song where he says, um, something of like, the devil's gonna wish he never messed with me because I, like, I came back stronger and better than I would if, if he would've left me alone in the first place. Right? And so there, there's, there's something I think we're missing in the theological frame that that is like, um, the, there's something that happens in the meant for evil. God moves for good, there's something in whatever that switch is that rotation, that flip that is of significant value mm-hmm., Right? And if we simply pathologize it because it is a reaction to a move of evil, we have missed the, like, the mystery of God in that moment to take a thing that was meant to be our downfall and not only cause us to survive it, but to, but it is that thing that actually makes us better, stronger, more like him, Right? And so, so that in and of itself is good. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. . And so there's something of the ability to move up and down this chart that is, that is freaking brilliantDanielle (31:57):Mm-hmm. . So, so I think I wanna go back to that story in Genesis. And when, you know, they ate the apple and then God came walking through, He, he asked them where they were, and through the conversation he says to them, you know, he finds out that they ate this apple and that that's why they were, you know, wearing, had sewed these fig leaves and made this, this, um, made these like coverings, right? I'm assuming for their body. But that's not, they weren't in trouble for their shame about their body. You know, that's not why he, he kicked them out of Eden. It was for what they did. And then actually when they were out of Eden, he honored that shame. He made them close out of animals. So God actually didn't take them, didn't take their shame and move them through this polyvagal chart and force them to be calm in their body in a certain way.TJ (32:58):I think that's a really important thing to say. Mm-hmm. .Rebecca (33:04):Right? And, and I think there's also a sense in whichThat what, what you're, what that means then is that something was fundamentally altered in Adam and Eve and they never got to go back to the state in which they were in Eden as if it had never happened. Right? And, and I, and I think there's something about the gospel that is, um, that that isn't what, that's not what you're meant for, right? There's a kind of naivete before she eats the apple. Mm-hmm. Right? That we, we don't get to go back to mm-hmm. . And, and there might be some loss there, right. Of, of, of innocence, Right. But there's also something to be gained in the process of having God honor the shame and re reshape it and reimagine it for us. Right? And, and it, um, there's a quote on my Facebook page, something of like, uh, um, a gratitude that I have for my struggle because in it, I stumbled across my own strength mm-hmm.. And, and so there's something, I think I, there's something that we gain in the wrestling and the struggling and the coming out in a place of God honoring where we've been, including the shame that we have felt that that, so you don't ever really get to go back home again, right? Like, you never get to go back to life before the apple, but you do know the grief of having ate the apple, the agony of having eaten the apple and the sweetness of God having restored your relationship to him even after you ate the apple. Right? That, and so there's a different depth to your relationship with Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. , I mean, I think we could feel it in our own marriages even, right? Like it sucked when we fight, but there, but there's something sweet about, about when you get to that place of like, I'm married to a guy in in with whom I can totally blow it. Like, totally blow it. Mm-hmm. and, and, and, and this relationship can hold that.Danielle (35:20):And, and I think I wanna make a like a further point. It's not that they didn't eat meat after this, but God sent Adam to do what was closest to him, which was till the earth because he had made Adam from the Earth, it says that mm-hmm. , he didn't send him to a place of then further shame where he had been caring for animals and implied, now you have to herd these animals. Like I think there's something special in thatRebecca (35:47):That was his job to begin with before Yeah. Before the apple, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and so there's a sense of it being restored in some capacity.Danielle (35:56):Uh-huh and he literally put chair bins up there, they were never getting back in.Rebecca (36:02):Right? You Right, right. And, and that yes, there's some loss, but that doesn't mean that the progression forward does not bring like a corresponding sweetness that might even overpower the, the sense of loss.Danielle (36:18):And so I think that really fits with the clip from, um, from Incanto because they're not going back to that first city in that town andTJ (36:34):Uh, I think, I think it's, I, yeah, I'm having a lot of thoughts, but I just, I think pointing out that God treats their responses with compassion, cuz I don't think that's how we treat our own reactions. You know? Um, and my, my friend has gone off into this, like, she got in trouble on, um, for her take of like all, all coping is adaptive. Like she's trying to come against this like maladaptive coping label. And she's not saying that there aren't he versions of coping, but that we cope however we can. And then when we're able to cope better, we trade those coping mechanisms for ones that are healthier. And I think, I don't know, I I I'm not qualified to weigh in on that, but I think the point of treating ourselves with compassion, because when you see this chart, at least me, I'm like, well, how, how can I just get to the rest, like to the, you know, how can I move myself through? Um, because all other responses are bad when that's not what, that's not even how God treated Adam and e like, I think that's really important to say. Cause I don't think that's our default response is to like treat our reactions with compassion. And I don't think they change unless you can hold them with compassion.Rebecca (37:54):I would actually argue that our, our body's capacity to move along this chart is, is God, is God given. Right. Right. And there, there's a very appropriate time and a place for fear for, for anything that's on here. Right. Um, I I think, uh, I I don't even think you could argue that we're meant to live in this place of perpetual rest.Jesus is like on day seven, hollered me about rest. Right. But until then, like, you know, so are we right? I I I think like our capacity to move through these things is, is God given in the first place, Right? And some of the ness that we might feel is when there's not a sense of b balance or a sense of home, you know, like of the fluid sort of homeostasis of being able to read a situation and move with agility between the, these phases, right? Um,Danielle (39:00):Or the way perhaps our cultures have been pathologized for staying in different places in this right cycle. And therefore as a practitioner working in a cross-cultural environment, we have to come in with an attitude of first alignment and then willingness to be curious and receive, you know what Ernest said, that customizabilityRebecca (39:24):Right? Right. That plus I think, like I said, I think there's a time and a place for every single thing on here. So some of the pathologizing of communities of color is like, sometimes vigilance is not hyper vigilance, sometimes it's just situationally appropriate vigilance. Right. And, and the problem is that the majority culture is isn't paying attention to the power dynamics in the room. So they are misreading the need for vigilance in the room. Right. And so, and so then I'm not actually in this pathological space of hypervigilance, Right? I'm not in this space of PTSD where I'm actually not on the battlefield. And so my vigilance doesn't make any sense. I actually am, and my body is rightfully reading some sense of threat in the room. The problem is that in your not reading the room, well as you know, as, as a member of the culture that happens to be in power in that moment, you, you're, you're, you're not, you're not being honest about what the dynamics in the room really are. So you miss it. Mm-hmm. , and then you, you know Right. In a way that was like accusatory, like, like you're not, you're not doing the work because you're not, you're doing this and, and that's not necessary. You know what I mean? So Yeah.Danielle (40:49):So I wonder if it'd be possible to even name during this section, and we're talking about Adam and Eve, that when you're the other, like as a culture that's stepping into this experience, that it's possible you may be going up and down this chart, like what is Danielle gonna say? Mm-hmm. , what is Rebecca gonna say? What will happen in this moment mm-hmm. and, and to, for us to honor those bodily experiences. And maybe, you know, how we did with Jenny just slow down and ask mm-hmm. . Cause I will be going up and down this chart during the talk because, you know, there's performance pressure. There's the idea of I wanna honor my culture. There's the idea of how do I interpret myself. So I think it's fair to name that.Rebecca (41:42):Yeah. And that there are really good reasons why Right. That that, you know, and, and how do you step into a sense of self evaluation about how much, what, where's the line for me between like, this is a, a resilient response that I need to honor and where there are places where there's some hypervigilance, right? I mean, not that you wouldn't honor all of it, but to help them start to understand like there, there are resilient reactions and then there are reactions that are more about like being resigned to, to the weight of our collective stories. Right. And the, the text doesn't ask us to be resigned. Right? Right. It, it, it ask us, uh, to, to fight and to persevere, right? Mm-hmm. , um, and to press on towards the mark.Danielle (42:33):And in fact that's where, you know, that's where we can come back to like, God didn't ask Adam to get on with it to like stay naked. Right. And he didn't even call it out as a problem. He's just like, Here man, here's some nicer clothes.Rebecca (42:53):Right. And right. And, and you can almost hear in that a sense of like, like Eden is where you started, but it isn't where you're gonna end up. And, and and, and there is a journey that we will be on together. Right. And so like, there's some things you're gonna need for the journey, including some clothes, right? Not, not, not, I mean, Yeah. Yeah. And, and if we really truly believe that God is omni mission and he knew from the beginning and therefore the apple and the fall not, did not surprise him and that he always had a plan for Right. Jesus was always in the work mm-hmm.And that he always meant for us to end up in Revelation 79 knowing what it would cost us to land it there through that pathway. Right. Then going back to Eden before the fall was, was is not how we're supposed to play this game.Yes. And also, uh, it maybe took us the struggle of the past year to figure out this is the talk.Cause there's something really inviting about Eden is what you're meant for. Like, it's not like that doesn't resonate and it isn't like it isn't true. Right. I mean, it is true that we, we were meant for the splendor of Eden. Right. But it's also true that the game changed.And, and, and then now we're meant for something actually sweeter and richer with more depth than Eden.Danielle (44:51):Mm. That makes me wanna cry. Cause it feels hopeful compared to what I have felt, you know?Rebecca (44:59):Like where it meant for the sense of greater, is he Right? I mean, where it meant for the sense of, and we shall overcome and the only way you get there is cuz there was something you had to overcome. Right. There's the, the like something went gravely wrong in Eden that put an obstacle in your way.Right? And so I think we have, right? Yeah.Danielle (45:25):TJ what are you thinking?TJ (45:28):Uh, I'm thinking about redemption for white people. Like what, what, you know, which is not the focus of this conversation. That's where my,Danielle (45:37):But I think it is actually part of the focus cuz I think we're all too, but you are white and, and you're in white skin, but you're also not white.TJ (45:45):Yeah, I know. Yeah. I, Yep. Super aware. And I, and I think that is like, just as you guys have been talking throughout the few weeks until, until more recently where I just am like, it's, it's like anything that you banish from the table has a lot of powerYeah. And yeah. So even though we're like not gonna devote any of our conversation to this part over here, which is an intentional choice, that actually necessarily means that it's exerting a lot of power over us. Um, so I don't know. I just was thinking about that, like what there is a movement to specific cultures. There's um, there's a recovery work and, and it's something that we're all doing, We're doing it in different ways. Sometimes we're doing it in different spaces, but we are doing itRebecca (46:51):Absent a frame around whiteness white people. And, and the redemption of that story, you, you, you can't in order to have a complete picture of God mm-hmm. and, and, um, and so they treat that as a sacred moment of curiosity around what is it that this culture knows about God that we do not mm-hmm. what parts of him are translated that we don't have words for mm-hmm. . Um, and it made me, it, when he told me that, it reminded me of you, it reminded me of us having some conversations that there's not a word in Spanish for resiliency mm-hmm. . Right. And so I just, yeah. I mean like that sense of like, there are ways that you will see it as a Latinx woman that will go right past my head as a black woman and, and if I'm wise, I will slow down and sit in that moment with you and be like, what do you know that I don't?How has God shown up in your culture in ways that he hasn't shown up in mind?Danielle (48:06):Well, I think it's gonna be good. Thanks for recording this, tj. AndYeah. And I know you gotta go.TJ (48:15):I do. But I appreciate you both. I respect you both. It's been really fun to work with you.Danielle (48:23):I'm glad we got into it because now I I, it, I think we were feeling our way around which, which part of the text gives us this. And I feel like we kind of just felt our way into that, you know? Mm. So that feels good to me, you know?Yeah. Okay. Bye.Rebecca (48:45):You. Thank you.TJ (48:46):Thank you 

My name is Jacqueline Batres Bonilla.I was born in El Salvador and moved to Minnesota at the age of 11 years old. I am a Cáncer survivor who lives with a grateful heart and with a mission to bring God's kingdom to the earth. Happily Married to Marvin Batres who are also excited to become adoptive parents. I'm a Marriage and Family Therapist working with individuals, couples and families. I am also a co- lead pastor  at Espíritu Santo church in the East Side of Minneapolis, MN. I'm a person who believes to be called to listen to others with an incarnational heart and mind to bring healing and freedom.“The Blessings comes after the step of obedience”From El Salvador to MinnesotaTranscripts:Danielle (00:05):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender and healing. And I'm so excited for you to meet my friend and colleague, recent graduate, working in the therapeutic field, also a pastor. Um, and you know, we're gonna touch on the fact that this is this stereotypical Latinx heritage month. But, you know, it is really important for us to take up some space and to give voice, uh, give opportunities to talk about what, what mental health means for our community, and really wanna be celebrating this all year round. And that's gonna be intentional as well. But, you know, here we're jumping in with this wonderful woman. So listen in and, uh, looking forward to the conversation. You know, I'm so impressed with like, your work, and I know just bits and pieces from Instagram and a lot from, like, the feeling I had when I was with you mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I'm excited for your journey and hear what you're hearing, what you're up to, and you know where you've come from. So I don't know where you wanna go or how you wanna open up talking about that, butJacqueline (01:26):Basic things. Um, Okay. Um, me number is jacking Bon. Um, and I was born in El Sal la moved to the US specifically directly to Minnesota. Um, when I was 11 years old, um, my parents, you know, my dad came to California during the Civil War, El Salvador, and, you know, he learned his English and like work in restaurants and he has shared with us that he didn't like the fast pace of the us So he went back and then got married with my mom and had my older brother and I. Um, so he has always, um, fought to be in our country. And it is interesting because he kind of lost the opportunity to become a US citizen, because after he left the amnesty in the eighties, um, so all my uncles who stayed are US citizens, and he's kind of like the only one who was not able to become an, I mean, he planned not to come back to the USHe, we, I mean, my dad always, and my mom worked hard to be business owners and just like, you know, do the best they can. Um, but I remember in the, we moved here 2000. In 2000, I just remember my dad saying like, We have too many debt. Um, we have to go to the us. And my mom was, my mom has always traveled. So, um, so my dad, when he moved, when he moved back in the eighties and he went back, he actually, uh, went to school to become a pilot. So he was a taxi, what they call, um, and when he got married with my mom, he was still like finishing his like license and all that. And, um, he's saw his plane to buy us a house. Um, so then he started like, Okay, I have to do business. And so we were, um, lucky enough to have visas since we were little because my dad, um, so we will come like for vacation and see like California and like Maryland and Washington, where we have, uh, family as well.So then my mom was a be a head, I don't know if you ever heard this term before, but my mom will travel every month to bring tamales, , you know, all the, the good stuff that you couldn't find here. And my mom will bring back things that people wanted to, you know, send their relatives, like computers, perfumes, Nikes, FIAs, and all those things that, um, anyways, so my mom was ara like every month. And my dad was at home, you know, like with the business in El Salor, but in 2000, before 2000, he's like, We have to go, we have a lot of debt. And, um, so I was 11. My brother was, he's three years older than me, so he was 14, 15. Um, and yeah, we moved to Minnesota and it's crazy because a year after, so, you know, we have to kind of learn English and all the stuff that, you know, um, a year after I was in school and learning English, I was diagnosed with cancer, um, arrived on my sarcoma.And, um, I don't know, we see, we, we see it now as there was a plan for us to come to Minnesota, You know, just having the Mayo Clinic and having like good medical assistant here. Um, and the type of cancer that I had was so rare, so rare, um, for a girl, my, for a girl my age. And, you know, it was such a blessing. Now we see like, okay, like maybe my parents never wanted to come, but I don't know if I would've been alive if I was an else because of, um, just, just the, what's the word that I'm looking for? Um, how advanced science isn't here mm-hmm. than in our country. Um, but it was, it was such a good place to be at that moment. Um, and here I am years later, um, you know, I feel like I've finished learning English at the hospital.So it's been, it's been a journey. It's been a journey because my mom, so when we moved months later, the earthquake in El Salor occur and we were granted the TPS status, so the temporary permit status. So my dad had that, my older brother and me, um, my mom kept her visa because we still had the house over there and relatives that my mom was taken care of. So while I was being treated with chemotherapy and surgeries and all that, my mom stayed a couple times and had to go back just to keep her visa. And in one of those trips, she was not able to return looking enough for me. Um, I was like finishing my treatment, um, because she was the person with me in the hospital. Like, I don't remember my dad staying with me, but my mom was there with me. Um, and then that's how kind of my family got separated. And I have two younger siblings who were born in the US so they ended up being with my mom because they were younger. And my dad, my older brother and I stayed here. Um, so,Danielle (07:33):So a forced family separation? Uh, almost like in the last, And when's the last time you saw your mom?Jacqueline (07:44):2003.It's been a long time.Danielle (07:50):Yeah. I mean, I feel the pain, even as I say, the year.Jacqueline (07:53):Yeah. It, it's been a long, long time.No, it was just, um, just cancel. And, you know, she was traveling with my younger sister. We actually had to do some like, healing stuff with her because she remembers mom crying. She was like four years old. She was born in the us Um, she's like 10 years younger than me, and she just remembered that, you know, immigration brought her to the office, interrogated her, and she's like, You're not able to return with your family, you have to go back.So my sister, yeah, just remember like crying for crying because my mom was crying but not understanding what was going on. Um, but until this day, she is one of the most, like, she feels the pain of me not being able, cuz I'm now, I'm like the only one who hasn't seen my mom mm-hmm. , because my brother got married and he was, you know, just blessed to receive his papers through the, through her, his wife. And, but like, he has, after 16 years, he was able to see my mom, but I haven't, And my sister is like the one of those that she's like, I'm broken. Every time I go, I celebrate like seeing my parents, but at the same time I'm broken because you're not able to. Um, so yeah. But it's, it's hard.Danielle (09:32):I mean, and what's hard is like, I think, and you know, you're a therapist now too. We work with people and, you know, they have traumas around family or friends or mm-hmm. loss or coworker mm-hmm. , you know, there's the list of traumas and in, in some of these traumas, like, it's like how do you address them? How do you address the injustice? But in this situation, it's systemic trauma mm-hmm. and systemic harm that separated your family and separated you from your loved ones. So in a sense, I just feel that powerlessness of like, Hey, I'm gonna shout at the wind mm-hmm. , and if I make too much noise against the system, it's the same system. I need to accept me mm-hmm. so I can have what I need to see my family. So it's, it's a bind.Jacqueline (10:22):Yeah. And now that I'm a therapist, that I see those cases and hear those stories too. Not, not that I, you know, but I can see the trauma that it causes a childYou know, and how families take, because unfortunately this is so normal in our communities that people don't see it, don't stop to hold the, the pain, the grief that comes with it. Mm-hmm.You know, people just like, you just have to keep going, like keep working and keep like living life. And I'm like, now when I see clients and I feel how this has traumatized them and increase their anxiety level depression and all those things I'm seeing, like, how have I, like not even I stopped to think about mm-hmm. all the things that I was feeling, you know, and that were caused because of thatUm, or to my siblings who were younger or to my parents who had, you know, no, say no, no power to do anything. Um, so yeah. It's, it's crazy just to think about all the things that this can cost. You know, things like this separation in the family.And it is happening as we speak.Danielle (11:53):Right. As we speak, it's still happening and it's, you know, it's ongoing for your family. It's ongoing for parts of my family. And, and like I said, there's the, uh, one of my brother-in-laws is demanded to ask forgiveness from the US government before he can return. And he didn't, he didn't do anything except for like go to work, you know? Mm-hmm. . And, uh, and I know that as people are listening, they were like, that's enough, but you don't understand. Right. The whole background to that. And so even the idea of asking forgiveness to a government mm-hmm.For feeding yourself or feeding your family mm-hmm.Jacqueline (12:35):And for my mom was for taking care of me. Cause I was, you know, Cause they give you a period of time and then she was leaving right before, right before. And even just telling the immigration officer about, I have a daughter who has been diagnosed with cancer, she's in treatment. Um, you know, what, what was she doing? You know, just working, taking care of her family mm-hmm. . Um, but yeah.Danielle (13:09):Yeah. And just the punishment for that. Mm-hmm.I, I, again, like you only share what you want too, but I just, I'm noting that part of your journey is to embark on healing.Not, not just like your body, like healed in your body, like from the cancer, whatever, but like this sense of like, there's hope for healing for this kind of trauma. And I'm just kind of curious like, what, what prompted you to get into counseling or therapy? LikeJacqueline (13:47):You know, everything started when God was bringing me the attention of listening. Well, like, he's like, you have to learn how to listen. And I even wrote my thesis about this, like listening to myself, listening to my body, listening to him, listening to what people are saying. And one of the things that I got from that was, there's like, there's healing and freedom when you're listen. Well, when somebody listens with a heart, with, you know, um, going to school. I've learned that this moment when, when we are with the clients, this is the holy place, the holy moment. Right. We kind of like the Moses on the bush on the burning bush moment of taking my shoes out because I'm taking myself out and, and kind of arriving to your where you are and listening. Right. And I just remember like, just having those moments of like, of quiet and just listening.And I don't know, I just started like listening more. I like to talk, love to talk more than listen, but God was just like giving me that desire to like, learn how to listen and listen well, don't just listen to understand, but listen to not just listen to respond, but listen to understand. And working in, in the campus ministry at Bethel, um, I started just listening to people and people were so attracted to come and me with me instead of the pastors. You know, I was not a pastor at that time, but, you know, I, I was like, okay, I feel like this is my calling to listen to people. How can I, you know, learn that and educate myself more on that. And, um, my, my dad also has been suffering from depression. So when he, he was separated with my mom for four years and a half and he decided to go back and that was like the first time that he was like, he got a, a breakdown like mental health and like, just being like moving, you know, like being here for so long and then moving back.Um, and just all the family, like he had, he knew that he, when he left, he was not able to return. Right. You know, and having a business and then starting over over there. It was just so many things. So my dad was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and went through like heart moments and just for us was just like a matter of understanding. Right. We knew, we grew up listening to his stories about how he grew up and everything that he went through, he always been open about it. Mm-hmm. , you know, the hard things, the good things. Um, but part of that was also like understanding like, I need to understand more what this means. And working with the pastors and working with college students helped me like, okay, maybe this is something that I wanna do. And that's how I like got into it.And when I'm learning about the basic skills, I'm like, the Holy Spirit already told me this stuff, you know, how to listen well, how to like in be in tune with people's emotions and like, um, so for me was just like a confirmation of, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Once I started learning and seeing the systemic, you know, as a marriage and family therapy, you see the system, you see mm-hmm. how it's not just about the client, but it's about how the parents, you know, we're parenting this child and how it has affected and it still affects us as an adult. Like mm-hmm. , everything. You know. So that's how I, and I, I feel like my husband can tell you, I felt like this program was for me first. Yeah. I always took it as I was like, in this, in therapy, like I did, took therapy cuz they told us like, go to therapy because this is going to trigger some of the things like from family of, and, and I just remember like some of the classes I was like driving home balling and crying and crying and my, my husband's like, What happened?What did they did to you? What, what? And I'm like, Just gimme a moment. Just gimme a moment. And so I feel like all those three years were just like, first for me, you know? And also receiving therapy and like, talking about my family of origin and things that have been going on. Um, it was really helpful. And then couples therapy and, you know, it's, but it's, it's been a good journey to, to do, I've done a lot of healing. Of course I'm not done because, you know, the stronger parts of me are like, okay, this part is ready, let's move to this next one. And I think, I think that's how God works. He's not, you know, the Bible says like he's gonna finish the work until he comes back. So we're this working progress. Um, it's not gonna be all at once. Um, because he's putting, he's making those parts of us stronger for those parts that are still mm-hmm. , um, bleeding that we don't know of Right. In our soul or memories or things that we don't even know that are hurting us, but they areDanielle (19:24):So I mean, that's really beautiful and I can definitely relate to going to therapy during grad school and uh, or like, and coming home and telling Louise, we're doing this all wrong. Like all of it is wrong or we're not okay. And just be like, Can you just, can you just take a deep breath because we can't, we can't accomplish all of this in one moment. Right. Yeah. But I think, I love that picture that you talked about, like, I've been doing a little research on s and like the method of healing in la Latin America, specifically in Mexico, and just this idea that there's this alignment between your heart and your mind and your soul. Mm-hmm. , like you're, and when you're in alignment, that's a place where you're listening from mm-hmm. and I You didn't say that, but that's what I heard mm-hmm. , that, that alignment is, it's already in you that desire to be aligned, that alignment and that those people when you were a campus pastor recognize that mm-hmm. and we're like gravitating towards, towards you in that space. Mm-hmm. .Jacqueline (20:35):Yeah. Yeah. It, it is just, but it, but it takes moments of listening to yourself mm-hmm. listening to it. The whole thing of listening has been an ongoing theme in the last five years for me. Like list learning how to listen to myself, my limits as a human being of resting, of why do I get mad for certain things so quickly? Why do I get irritated? Why, you know, those listening to my emotions, listening to my body, um, and then listening to God and listening to other people. Mm-hmm. , um, you know,Danielle (21:15):What, what do you tell someone that comes, and I know sometimes therapy can be stigmatized in communities of color. Like what do you say to people that come and be like, I don't need therapy, I'm gonna be fine. Or like, that's crazy. Like, you're making things worse. Like, what do you say to kind of like some of those initial defenses towards therapy?Jacqueline (21:39):I mean, I that's such a good question. I could just take it back to, I've always say it's not because people think, right? People think that you have to go to therapy because you're crazy. You're having Right. You're hearing words that are not, you're hearing people say something, you're seeing things and you know, and I I I just tell them, you know, sometimes we just need somebody who's not from our family to listen to us. And while we're talking, we're processingAnd we can hear ourselves without being judged because people are just listening carefully to us. You know, that, that's such a, everybody needs somebody to, to listen to them. Mm-hmm. , we, we desired that. We desire to be known to be understood mm-hmm. in therapy. That's kind of like the basic things right. That we learn. It's just somebody listening to, with nonjudgmentalUnderstanding your perspective. That's kind of like the goal. So I feel like this is just, if your husband's not listening to you, if your wife is not listening to you, if you don't have friends who can listen to you, if your parents aren't listening to you, like just go to therapy. You don't have to be crazy to, you know, or be diagnosed with something, butI think we all have that desire to be heard and understoodUm, that, that will be my simple thing that I'll say.Danielle (23:07):And I hear, you talked a lot about how your faith really aligns with, you know, being a therapist and how do you, how does that come into play when you're with clients?Jacqueline (23:21):It reminds me to the book of Esther, who, I don't know if you read the book of Esther, but the book of Esther doesn't mention God at all, but he's present.And as a person who believes that the Holy Spirit is in me and he works through me, sometimes even I'm not even knowing that he's working through me. Sometimes I can sense, you know, but mm-hmm. , I, I don't necessarily, like at the, at the clinic where I'm at right now, I don't necessarily work with as a Christian therapist. Mm-hmm. , um, people, some people, not my clients, but my supervisors and some coworkers know that I am a pastor too. Um, but I, I know, and one of my professors actually told me this, like, you can, you can work with God, you can work with the Holy Spirit. Nobody has to knowHe just, he will just prompt you those questions about, talk about the grandparents, and all of a sudden this big thing comes from the family origin mm-hmm. that the client's side is just click in my head and you know, that who prompt you that question or, you know mm-hmm. . So that's kind of like how I see it. Um, and always thinking about the best, the best, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, like the best outcome for them, right? The, the healing, the, the connecting the dots that they didn't know. Um, so just thinking about that, not necessarily like, but like, just thinking how the best outcome for the client. Does that makes sense?Danielle (25:10):Yeah. I think what I hear is you're loving people really well.Like, you're giving a piece of yourself and in a nonjudgmental way. And it's more like an invitation. What I hear in, in like, in like, kind of like my, like learning therapeutically. Like you're inviting them to their own story so they can listen to themselves and, and,Jacqueline (25:34):And they can find their own answers.Yeah. They can, They, I think that's, I think I read that. I don't even know where like, the good therapist will help you, will help you, you find your own answers. It's not that I have the answers, but you will, something will click in your mind, you will know, Oh, this is connected with how my dad raised me. You know, things like that. And find they have the answer. They just, we're just getting all the things out of them.Danielle (26:08):A lot of what I hear too, and like, you can tell me if this is true or not. Like I hear like a lot of hospitalityLot of welcome. Which feels very cultural. Right.Jacqueline (26:19):I was just gonna say that is just like the Latino way, like the Salvador way. Like it's, it's, and I remember even in one of our professors saying like, we have to be hospitable even in our, in a way of thinking and how we receive ideas and how we receive views of people.You know, but it is, it is a hospital way of like,Danielle (26:44):Again? Can you say that again? That was good. Like, we have to be, how did you say it?Jacqueline (26:48):We have to be hospitable in the way we think and the, how we receive the views of others and the perspectives, you know, because hospitable, you always think about, Oh, I'm welcoming you, um, you know, to the cafe. Like, here's this chair. Like, are you comfortable? Are you feeling good in this space? But in therapy, it's about the ideas and the views of people and what they bring, right?And receiving that as, Oh yeah, I receive that. I, I receive it as, you knowEven if it's different.Danielle (27:28):Yeah. I get that feeling even right now in this moment. Like, there's so much invitation to be curious mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's really beautiful.Jacqueline (27:38):Yeah. Just, just learning.Danielle (27:41):So if someone like, wants to get ahold of you or find you as a therapist, as a pastor, like how do they do that?Jacqueline (27:53):Well, um, they can go to a great lake Psychological services. That's where I work. Um, if they're looking for a therapist, um, and as a pastor, they can just go to our Instagram speaking to Santo Minneapolis and that's it. Or look me up, Mrs. I like, I like my two last names. That's such a Latino thing. People try to like, oh, I don't like, I like my two names and my two last names, you know? And now when I graduated, I went back to using my full name because it was a thing like, when you come to the US first, you don't know the language. And I discovered like, why did I change my name from Jacqueline to Jackie? Mm. It was because teachers will tell me, you know, when I started going to school, sixth grade, Can we call you Jackie? And I didn't know how to respond. I'm like, Okay. You know, I didn't know how, I didn't know English, so I didn't know how like no, my name is Jacqueline, not Jacqueline, not Jackie, Jacqueline. You know, So when I graduated and I started working, I'm like, I'm gonna go back to my given name, Jacqueline. You know? So now I'm trying my best to say that because a lot of people in our community already know me as Jackie, but at work is Jacqueline.Danielle (29:11):Yeah. . Yeah. I lo I love, I love that you're reclaiming your name and then so much meaning and purpose.And that's so much of what you're inviting your clients to, right? Yeah.Yeah. Thank you for being with me today.Jacqueline (29:33):Yeah, no, thank you for inviting me to your spaceDanielle (29:36):Too. Yeah. We need to do this again. Yeah. .  

Hospitality, Advocacy, Education and Community (Belonging) with Latina Martha Little of Kitsap County - "Anytime we have a conversation with, with someone, it's like, um, you are part of our family. You are part of us. And so we want to impart that, that wisdom and that love, because we want to, um, we want to ensure that we're all a family and we're all, you know, um, benefiting from, from each other." Transcripts:Danielle (02:22):So, I, I wanted to just hear from you because every time I talk to you, there's like a little bits of wisdom in, in all the sentences. And I think that's true of most Latinas. Like, they start talking to you and they're like, By the way, let me give you this piece of really important advice,Martha Little  (02:37):. Yeah. It's, it's our culture, right? Um, we are the, we are Tias to everyone. I mean, that's just, it is, is, um, anytime we have a conversation with, with someone, it's like, um, you are part of our family. You are part of us. And so we want to impart that, that wisdom and that love, because we want to, um, we want to ensure that we we're all a family and we're all, you know, um, benefiting from, from each other.Danielle (03:08):Right. And as a community member, I wonder if you would be willing to speak from your experience, Like, what are the aspects that make you feel belonging or maybe you, you, it's easier to speak to where you don't belong? I'm not sure .Martha Little  (03:22):Um, you know, I think that, I mean, I could speak to both. Um, I think that, um, as the older I get, um, the more, um, the more comfortable I am with, um, presenting myself as fully as I am. Um, and so I think that, um, throughout my life, um, I, I was trying so hard not to assimilate, but to, um, I was trying so hard to, um, to have others like me and include me and, and to, um, and to build a space where, where I could show up as myself. And, um, and I just, it seemed like it didn't matter what I did, it just wasn't going to happen. And, um, and I realized that, um, you know, when my kids are, were in high school, and I can tell you a little bit more about that, but I came to this realization that, um, I was, I was perfect just the way I am.Like, I don't need to change. I don't need to, um, to pretend to be something. I am not just to be included. And so, um, so I started showing up as myself. I started speaking my mind. I started, um, just being more, um, more outwardly Latina than I had been before. And, um, and I realized that, um, you know, the spaces that, that I was going into that maybe did not, did not feel like it was a space where I belonged, I, I started realizing that I had to say something. I had to, um, call it out and help them create a space for my, for me and for, for kids that I support and communities that I support. And so, um, I think that one, some of the things that, that organizations can do to create spaces where, um, where I can show up and feel like I belong in other, other community members like myself, um, is to, um, welcome us into the space.I mean, just the smile and then acknowledgement that we have entered the space, um, because that's part of our culture is Latinos. I mean, it's that instant smile, Oh, like, what was that? And then, you know, we gravitate and we wanna touch, we wanna shake hands, or we wanna hug, we want to embrace. And, um, and so I think that, you know, white culture, this embracing sometimes is a little awkward. We have our little space bubble that we don't want people to, to cross. And, and we, and I can respect that most of us can, I, I feel, but, but even just that smile, that greeting that, Hey, how are you? Good to see you. Welcome. You know, that would be, um, number one is like, create a space instantly when the person walks in, greet them, um, and let them know that they're, that they're welcome in there.And then also, um, you know, create a space where, where, um, people are allowed to show up as themselves and speak without criticism. Um, and so, and, and I'll give you an example. I was in a meeting once, um, where they were going over the, the, uh, meeting norms. And one of the norms was to, um, to monitor our, our voice level, our tone, and our body language. And I had to raise my hand and I said, Well, I need to leave then. And they said, What do you mean you're welcome here? And I said, No, that agreement right there tells me that I am not welcome if I have to monitor my body language, I am Latina. We speak with our hands, you know, we speak with our heads, we speak with our bodies. I mean, we get into this conversation, I said, And then, and then if I have to monitor my tone, if I have to monitor my voice, voice level, then I'm not gonna speak.Because as a Latina, I tend to sometimes get very animated and my voice raises and that, and so, and so, they're like, Oh, oh no, that's not what we meant. What should that say then? And so, um, and so we work through that together as a team. And it took several meetings before we, we ca and I don't even remember where we landed, but it's, again, it's being, um, being aware that sometimes the, the norms or the expectations we have for that space, um, create, um, spaces where we don't feel welcomed, where we can't show up. So in that particular meeting, it, I had to show up as white to be, to feel like I belonged in there. I had to speak softly. I had to, um, sit with my body quiet. And, and that's not who I am. And not that I haven't done that in the past in order to succeed in, in, in this society I have. Um, but like I said earlier, I'm at a point now where it's like, I'm gonna show up as myself, and I'm gonna help you create spaces where I can show up as myself. Um, and so, you know, just, I don't know if you've experienced that through your life, where we've, the more we mature, the more we start to shift and say, Wait, that's not who I am. I wanna be me, and I'm gonna help you create that space.Danielle (08:46):I love what you said about welcoming and the sense of hospitality. Even when you show up to a group that is inhospitable, maybe could be seen as inhospitable from there when the cultures come together. Right, Right. It's not necessarily a mix. I had a friend say to me recently, she said, I don't know if, if you are identifying more as Latina or before you just accommodated me,Martha Little (09:13): I'm a love that that's exactly it right there. We do accommodate, um, for others cuz we, we want to help them feel comfortable around us. And, um, but I think that there should be a give and take there. We sh we can create spaces where we all feel comfortable, where we all feel welcomed, you know? And, um, it's just a, a little bit of a shift. We're not talking about a, you know, complete change, but just a little shift, think about others and think about how, what kind of spaces they want. And, and I know it's cultural, right? My husband is from, um, Maine mm-hmm. , and, um, and they are very stoic people there, you know, and I'm not, and that's very, I mean, this is a generalization, but his family, anyway, they're very stoic and, and they tend to be, um, very quiet. And so, um, and so I am also aware of that. I'm also aware of that. And so I'm willing to, now as an adult, I'm willing to help them understand why it's important for me to show up as myself and honor the fact that they are going to be very quiet and very stoic. So create a space where we can coexist as each other.Danielle (10:28):Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So it sounds like you've done a lot of internal processing or internal work to move from like, Hey, I'm, I'm gonna move and kinda, you know, fit in as white to where I'm gonna move in the spaces I'm moving, which likely are predominantly white institutions if you're in education in the Northwest and show up as my Latina self. Do you have some of how you process that or moved through thatMartha Little (10:57):Yeah, so, um, so the shift started, um, when, my daughters, um, went to high school. And so prior to that I was a stay home mom. And I, um, you know, I was a classic soccer mom, you know, drove 'em to all the different functions and that, and, and, um, we spoke, um, some Spanish at home, but not a lot because I wanted them to, to have a, a strong grasp of the English language. And, and I wanted them to succeed academically and also, um, do well in, you know, in their social environment. And so, um, and that's, that's when I, that's when I, I guess I suppressed my Latina on this because I wanted them to succeed. I wanted them to have opportunities. And, um, come to find out, um, they started sharing with me that they were feeling like they didn't belong in the, in the, um, you know, Mexican community, which is we have a higher number of a Mexican community and impossible.Um, and they didn't fit in the white world. they weren't Mexican enough because they didn't speak the language as much as, and because they were involved in different sports and they, they just, their lifestyle was different. So they weren't Mexican enough, so, so they didn't belong to, to that community, but then their white peers did not accept them as white. They weren't white enough. Mm-hmm. . And that's when I, I realized that I was doing them a disservice by, um, by trying to, trying to assimilate essentially. Um, and, um, because it was, it was hurting them because they were lost between these two worlds. And so that's when I realized that I needed to just show up as myself and, and I needed to help them understand who they were and help them navigate this world. Um, you know, And so that, that was a total shift for me. That's when the big earrings came back. That's when the heels came back. That's when, when all of that that I had, um, set aside for, for many years. Um, it, it, it was this, I need to infuse this pride in my girls. I need them to feel what I have suppressed for so long. I need them to feel that pride because that's what's gonna help them navigate this, this world.Danielle (13:27):What did it feel like to return to yourself in that way? To like, put on the big earrings, like the outward things, but there were inward things that you,Martha Little (13:36):There were inward things. Yeah. Um, you know what it was, um, it was free. I mean, it was, and I didn't, I guess I didn't even realize it. Um, it's almost like, I don't know if you've ever, I mean, Saturday morning loud music and dancing in a house that's classic Latina, that's how it felt. It felt like one day I woke up and I cranked up the Cumbias and I was dancing and singing, you know, and the whole family was, was partaking in this celebration. It felt like I came alive. Um, and, um, it just felt like, okay, I am, you know, I am, I am me, I am Latina and I can embrace this and I can, um, I can help my, my daughters and then my son embrace this, but then also help our, our kids in our, in our schools, um, you know, uh, feel pride in that.And I don't know if you remember, that's when we started Kule mm-hmm. because that's when it was like, Okay, we need to feel proud of who we are and, um, and we need to outwardly show that pride. And so it was like an awakening for me. Mm-hmm. And it was, it was pretty powerful. It was also, um, it also brought me a lot of joy, um, just inward joy. And it just, and it poured out, I mean, um, regularly. And, and so, um, my hope is that I can take that experience and then help others navigate, um, you know, our, our systems now because, um, no matter how much we try to be white, um, it's not gonna happen. And we, we are still outwardly brown and we're still not going to be embraced by white society the way we, we hope to be embraced. And so, um, so it is better to show up fully as ourselves with that understanding. And then, um, work hard to, to change, um, systems.Danielle (15:51):Yeah. You work in the education system. Would you be willing to speak to, I hear that it's like when your, your kids were in high school, right? Is that when you returned to education or got started on that path?Martha Little (16:02):Oh, yes. , yes. Oh, yeah.Danielle (16:05):Oh. What is that path for you? I know you were a teacher. Yes. Yeah.Martha Little (16:11):Yes. So, and I get that old lady. No, so I'm, I'm fine. I'm not emotional, just, um, but um, yeah, so the reason, so before that, I was in the business world, um, prior to, to children. And so, um, you know, I had, I had a, a great career and then got married, had kids, um, and stayed home for a while. And, um, it was actually an experience at one of the, um, secondary schools. Um, my oldest was a sixth grader, and, um, she was being, they were gonna put her in a, um, like a homework help class. And this is a college, this is a college bound kid. She's going to college. We know she's, she, she has, you know, um, we know she's gonna go to school and she, and she wants to, um, to excel academically. And so I went to the school to, um, to, to get her schedule changed cuz she tried. And they told her they couldn't. And so I went and I went there, um, dressed like a mom, you know, ponytail, jeans, but shirt and, and, um, I, I was, um, ignored. I stood in the office for like 20 minutes and no one acknowledged that I was there. And when I finally went up and, and I got, and I got someone to acknowledge I was there, I was dismissed, I was told admin was not available, and I was told that counselors were not available. I was told that my daughter could not be moved out of the class. And so, uh, that moment was pivotal for me because, um, I called my husband and I said, I'm going back to school. I mean, get my teaching. All I needed was my, my teaching certificate. Wow. And I said, because I need to be part of the system. I need to change things. The other thing I did is I went home, I put on a suit, did my hair, I put on makeup, heels, the whole works that I went back to school. And I have to tell you, the minute I walked in that school, immediately they acknowledged me immediately. I was greeted. And, um, the both administrators were available to talk to me at that point. The counselors were available to talk to me at that point. And so, because I had gone from a Latina, the mom to now a business woman in a suit, and, and, you know, dressed professionally, I was greeted differently. I was treated differently that day. My daughter, um, her, her schedule was changed within like 15 minutes. Right.And so that's when I realized I have to step into this, this world. I, I need to change. I, I need to change systems. I need to be able to be part of a system that I can change. And so that's when I went back to school and got my, um, my teaching certificate. And so, you know, here it is a, a, an act of racism, um, propelled me to change, um, what I was doing professionally.Danielle (19:16):I felt all the feels listening to that story. Cause it's not unfamiliar to my family. Right,Right. I, I remember you in my, in the days when we were in elementary school and you were an advocate and I think teacher and what was your, you had a different kind of like more leadership role at that point.Martha Little (19:37):Y yeah, I was a English language coordinator, so I supported, um, our English language learners and families.Danielle (19:44):Right. And I remember feeling so cared for by you and understood. And so to hear the backstory of where that comes from, it making use of that experience in a way that impacted my family, it's, it's, it's really inspiring.Martha Little (20:03):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I think it's, it's, um, our experiences, um, if we use our experiences both positive and negative, um, to, to create change in us and around us, um, I, I think that, um, we can, we can grow, um, both, um, you know, individually and, and as a society. I mean, I, I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily think that, um, or I don't look at all experiences as, um, these horrible, um, instances that, that, um, cause trauma. They do. Some of them do cause trauma. But in this case, um, that was a pitiable point for me because in this case it allowed me to, to, um, to now step into a role that that helps others. Mm-hmm. . Um, and by helping others, I'm helping myself because, um, the, the work I do truly feeds my soulAnd the money's good, but the work I do truly feeds my soul. And, and I feel like, um, that that very negative experience, um, that still sometimes, um, you know, when when it surfaces, it still still angers me. It still creates emotions, um, or, or, you know, brings these emotions out. Um, but taking that and, and then doing something with it, and that's kind of, that's our, uh, Latina heritage that's being Latino that does that from, from the moment we were little, we were always taught that, um, to be grateful. Mm-hmm. , you know, and it was always, and it didn't matter what it was, whether it was a good thing or a bad thing. I remember my mom always saying, This experience is gonna help you grow. And, and it's that, um, you know, that they instill in us this love for, um, for God. And they instill in us this, this understanding that our hardships and, um, our experiences are God given so that we can get better so that we can grow to be better humans. And, um, and so I think that that's just part of our culture, right? Mm-hmm. , we take all of this stuff and we do something with it mm-hmm. , um, and, um, I don't know. It's, it's a beautiful thing to, to be able to think back at everything that I was taught as a child now is helping me as an adult.Danielle (22:49):Where do you see, when you think of those experiences as a child, and now you work with families in our community, and I, I think a lot of immigrant families, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Where do you see, how do you see that changing in the last few years? Even your work through the pandemic or with increased, I think, frankly, since the 2016 election focused on our community and direct expressions of hate towards our community. Like what, what have you seen in your own work with immigrant families?Martha Little (23:25):Um, you know, I, I think that, um, when I think about what our, our families experienced, um, during those four years, um, those very hard political years for, for our communities, um, it, it took me back to when I came to this country, when I, when I first arrived here, um, the signs on the, on the, in the businesses, on the business, um, you know, the doors and the, um, the rentals. Um, and, and I shared the story before, but they, um, they said, No dogs, no Mexicans. And I remember as a, as a, like, I think I must have been six, six, just, just about to turn seven. I remember how that impacted me. Um, this idea that I, I, they didn't want me mm-hmm. , and not just that, but I was being compared to an animal mm-hmm. , right? And so I was in that same category.And, um, and now I tell you what, I have a dog now, and I love our dog. She's part of our family. But back then, um, my my understanding was that I was being compared to, to an animal and I wasn't wanted. And, um, and so having experienced that as a young child, um, and, you know, learning English, cuz I, I, I didn't speak English. I, um, I remember, you know, constantly being reminded to speak English, don't speak Spanish, don't speak Spanish, speak English. And, and constantly being reminded, um, you know, that I didn't, didn't belong here. And then fast forward to, um, you know, this, this very, um, difficult political time for, for, um, immigrants. Um, again, it felt like, again, we don't belong here. You know, we didn't see the signs, but we heard the message constantly, constantly, you know, this messaging that we are criminals.We are not wanted, you know, we need to go back. And, um, and so, um, for our families, um, um, 2016, I remember there was this great fear within our community. Um, they were afraid to go out to their homes. They were afraid to step out, um, the kids. Um, we had so many absences because, um, the kids were afraid to go to school and come home and not find their loved ones at home, or, or they knew their mom and dad would be safe. But what about their, the, or their theo or, I mean, it just, it was, it was heartbreaking to, to see this. And so, um, as, I mean as, because I, I had the role as an EL coordinator. Um, we partnered with, um, with Kayak, um, Kitsap Immigrant Assistant Center. And we brought in, um, we brought in folks to, to talk to our community, um, created safe spaces for them, um, and then, um, brought 'em in to talk to our community about what they could do and what their rights were.Um, and we also brought in, um, you know, the, um, different, um, people from, um, from our communities. We had police department, sheriff, and highway patrol. I mean, we brought in just a lot of folks to, to say, You are safe. We, we are going to take care of you. It's okay to call 9 1 1. It's okay to, to get services. We are here to protect you. And, um, it was a pretty beautiful thing to see, um, our community kind of wrap around our, our Hispanic community and say, You're safe. You're welcome. Now, that's not everyone. Yeah. That, that was a handful of, of folks. Um, but the difference that made, um, for our families, um, when the school districts, um, you know, sent the message to families that their children were safe at school mm-hmm. that only parents could pick them up, the ice would not be able to go to the school and take their children.I mean, to, to share that message with our, our, um, you know, families that was crucial to helping them feel safe. And, um, and so I think that my role in that really was about partnering with, with our extended community, reaching out and saying, Hey, I can't do this alone and we have a need. And still, And then we all just came together. And, and that's really, I mean, like you and I, this work we're doing right here, and then you inviting me to, to this conference, I mean, that's all about partnerships and, and, um, it's all about, um, you know, reaching out and supporting each other. Mm-hmm. . So, um, I think that right now our families feel a little, a little safer, but I think that, um, there is so much hatred now that is, um, being spewed publicly now. I mean, I don't think that, I don't think that there's been a great change.It's just that it was, it was not, it was not out in the open mm-hmm. . Now it is. I mean, hatred is just being viewed everywhere. You hear it. And so I think our families are feeling safer, but I also think that our students, our kids, um, I, I imagine they feel that same, um, disconnect or that same, um, this awareness that they're not wanted. And I imagine that they, they felt maybe what I did when I first came to this country and this, you know, sense of, um, I don't know, not understanding why, why don't you want me, What's wrong with me? Mm-hmm. , that's really the question is what is wrong with me? Why, why, why am I not wanted? Why am I not welcome? Mm-hmm. . So yeah, it's a lot.Danielle (29:13):Yeah, it is a lot. And I mean, it clearly, you know, you've navigated some complex systems and reached across and made partnerships on behalf of folks who aren't able to make those asks themselves maybe for fear, or maybe there was prior threat. Um, but I, what I really hear is that you have built networks and, and, and I think those are likely built in relationships. I know me contacting you is a feeling like, Oh, I think Martha's my friend, I think I know she would listen, so, or I know she might enjoy this or that, so I could invite you. Right. So I really feel that's, that's also part of our culture, like to network and to say like, Hey, I, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, can you help me? Right.Martha Little:Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Um, we are, um, very much about relationships. Um, so, so much. Um, and I, I feel like we embrace each other even before we truly get to know each other. You know, there's this instant connected-ness instant thing that connects us. Um, I was in Puerto Rico like four years ago, I think. And um, and it's like I felt the community just accepted as a minute. We got there, we were at the beach just hanging out as a family. And, and I had a lady, um, never, I mean, never. I didn't know anyone there. And she came up and she's like, Nana, and she gave me a hug and this, and then, and she says banana. So she just gives me all these bananas from her home, from her banana trees. And then we would go out into old San Juan. And the same thing, like, someone would come up and just talk to us and, and come in.And then they would, you know, share whatever it is that they were, um, eating or doing. And, and it's just our culture. We embrace each other. And I shared that with a colleague of mine. And, and then later on she was telling someone else, she says, Yeah, Martha said that she went to Puerto Rico and everybody was hugging her. And I said, No, you missed the whole point. When I say that I was embraced, Yes, oftentimes I was hugged, I was embraced. But mostly it was, it was a spiritual, um, connection. It was a, a cultural embracement. Like from the minute I got there, I belonged and we were, we were a family. We were, you know, friends, you know, we were, um, we just had this connection and, um, and I feel like as Latinos, um, it's just something that happens. We gravitate towards each other  and embrace each other. We are, you know, we are P mediaDanielle:  Yeah. And I, I just, when I hear that, you know, I'm like, I, I feel warm inside. I I've been telling this story, you know, Julie's 15 and she, we were down in Mexico in Guadalajara for, I don't know, three weeks or whatever in the area for like three weeks. And part of that time, we hadn't been there for eight years with some of our family. And I think we were in Guadalajara maybe two days. And Dooley came up to me and said to me, Mom, why haven't I been here in eight years? And why do I feel like this is home and back home doesn't feel like home. I don't have the feeling. And I, and I was like, thinking about it. I was like, Well, well, I know it's in your dna, . And, and also it's the fact that the neighbor hasn't seen Luis in eight years and they have kids, and now those kids come over to say hi. Or there's a sense of, Oh, Julie's here. This is, this is good. Yeah. Without even knowing who she is, Right. There's a sense of like, Yes, of course you're here and we love you. And, and it was more than just the fact that we were seeing family. It, I think it was, it felt like the smell and the texture and the street and, and the, I think how kids say today, like it was the vibe, right? Yes.Martha Little (33:22):, Yes, yes. There is something, there is something in the air. Um, my mom used to say that, um, it's in our blood. Um, and do you know what ATO is? Yeah. And she said, she's like, There's something in our blood. She says, Some people have a toilet, which is very thick blood, and it does not allow them to, to weave in and outta spaces and make connections. And then she said, and then, um, we have this light blood sang, you know, is what she used to say, sang, that allows us to just weed in and out as spaces that the blood just flows in and out. And it allows us to make those connections. And I just love that, that, you know, I could just picture this in my brain is like, and so she would sometimes, if we went into, um, new spaces and if we were being shy, she would turn and she would say, Miha. And so just that reminder that that, you know, let, let your blood, let your soul let who you are just, just flow, just flow in and out of spaces and make those connections because the connections. And she used to also say there's, that the only thing we will take with us when we leave this earth is our memories and our love and the connections we've made with people.It's not everything else that we acquire that stays. And so, I mean, that's always stayed with me. Um, you know, that, that, yeah. The Nemo sang the normal, all of this beautiful stuff that is just part of our culture.Danielle:  I hear just the underpinnings of how I don't like the spirituality, the faith. Yes. Like kind of GERDs up for a sense of respect and mutuality. Yes. And of course, our cultures have been interrupted by traumas, and we don't always respond in these ways and Right. Our families are broken too. Right. But there's something underneath that that says, we can come back. This is what we can come back to.Martha Little (35:40):Yes, yes, yes. I think that, um, it, it, um, you know, from when we are young, um, you know, everything that we learn and do is grounded in our faith and, um, and, you know, our love for, for each other. And, um, and I think that that's what allows us to, to be, um, maybe a little more resilient. Um, because goodness know, we've experienced a lot. Um, we have a lot of, um, inter intergenerational trauma and we have a lot of, a lot of experiences that, um, could really have a strong impact on us. And, and, and some experiences have, I know that I, I, you know, I still have to process and deal with, with some things, but, um, but it's this, being grounded in this faith that, um, today might be difficult, but it's gonna get better. And we just need to reach out and we need to be there for each other, you know? So, and I think that that also drives my, my work, um, is just understanding that that, um, today may be difficult, but there's hope. I can see it at the end, and I just need to keep moving forward. And there's hope that things will change.Danielle (37:00):it's a really beautiful picture. Yeah,Yeah. When, when you, um, as we're winding down on a time, I'm curious, like what books are you reading right now? What are, what are, Yeah. And then what are you listening to and who are, what's inspiring you? Kinda like these three questions.Martha Little (37:20):Oh, um, I just, actually, I just finished, um, reading. It's, it's, um, it's, um, let's see, it's fiction. And I, I'm pulling it up right now cuz I wanna be able to, um, to call it out. Um, so I'm reading, um, texture teaching right now or listening to, and we'll start what happened to you pretty soon because I want to, um, I, I need to understand how to support our students and our families and my own children, um, how to help them work through the trauma they are experiencing. Mm-hmm. , I need to understand. Um, I, I need, I mean, I have an awareness now and now I need to know how to help them through this. And so, um, so I've, I, let's see. I'm, I'm just trying to find, It was really good. I, I think your kids would really like it. Um, I think that they would, um, don't this stuff. Don't ask me where I'm from.Danielle (38:22):Oh, we have that book at home.Martha Little (38:23):Oh, it was so good. And, and it's, I mean, it's juvenile fiction, but I, I've really enjoyed it. And then, um, just before that, I read for Brown Girls with Sharp Edges and thatOh, you're gonna love it. Like, I could not put it down. could not put it down. And so those are the ones that I just finished, um, listening to. And then Texture Teaching is, is what I'm working on right now. I've read, um, uh, see, uh, How to Heal Racial Trauma, I think it was. And that's, uh, the, the Racial Healing Handbook.But that one just, it peaked my interest to the point where now I have to, I have to know more. I have to learn more. And so, so yeah. Um, I mean, I, there's a lot for me to learn a lot from me to doDanielle (39:18):Who are, what's inspiring you right now?Martha Little (39:22):I think our youth are inspiring me right now. Um, I was just at a, um, Latino Student Union meeting and this group of Latino high schoolers got together and, um, they were very unhappy with some things that happened in, um, in the school. And they got together and they wrote the statement and they read it out loud to an administrator. I was fortunate enough to be there, to be invited. And, um, and I'll tell you what, they inspired me last year. I, I got to meet with our black student union students and they inspired me. Mm-hmm. , it's the kids right now. They, um, they are ready to do so much more than we were ready to do with their age. Mm-hmm. , they are just, um, they want change and they're not afraid to speak up and say, this is wrong. And so they inspire me, like if, if I can be in their spaces, I don't know if you ever feel this, you walk into a space and you're with kids and you're listening to them, and all of a sudden you feel this energy, you feel energized. And I'm just like, Oh yes, give me some of that energy so that then I can continue this, this fight, this work, you know? And so, so I would say it's not like one, it's like collectively our youth inspire me right now. They are doing so much more than I ever thought of doing. I was afraid of doing, I think. And so they're inspirational.Danielle (40:56):I love that. Well, if someone is listening and they wanna reach out to you, is that an option? Or are you on social media, or how would someone find youMartha Little (41:06):So I am not on social media because I work so hard during the day and go to all these meetings in the evening. So I, I just need to be able to step away from it. And so I, I am not on social media and my kids tell me I ought to be, but I'm not. Um, but they can always, um, I mean, they can always, um, email me, um, if they have questions. I, I work for central kids have school district and so they can always email me. Um, and um, yeah, I think that that's probably the best way because until I am brave enough to go on social media, um, or until I decide that I am ready to give up some of my free time to be on social media, um, it's gonna have to be email.Danielle (41:52):Well, thank you.Martha Little (41:54):Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to, to meet and to share.  

Dr. Eliza Cortes Bast is a fierce and honest follower of Jesus. She is a pastor and denominational executive, dedicated to helping churches think missionally. She lives into her passion by connecting people, advocating for the community, and helping organizations think strategically so they can be healthy, vibrant, and sustainable. Eliza lives in Michigan with her patient and handsome husband EJ, and their two boys. Her loves include her home country Puerto Rico, her interracial marriage, a good steak, salsa dancing, writing, empowering emerging leaders, making the impossible possible, Diet Coke, and mentoring. She is not a big fan of anger without action, generalizations, basketball, and saying you can't live without coffee. She believes you can because she believes in you.Featured here on RED TENT LIVINGAboutAboutMy greatest joy is helping people & teams lean into what is possible, and develop the processes, metrics, and structure to help get them there! Helping develop the natural talent of teams and optimize outcomes & opportunities to reach strategic goals is my sweet spot. I love interacting with clients and teams, bringing energy and enthusiasm, as well as accountability and quality management, to every setting I serve. I love training and facilitation, creating both consensus and curiosity around your table. I am skilled in intercultural competency, and have worked with diverse teams in multiple contexts to create cohesion and movement. I have built a career and identity that revolves around nurturing organizational vibrancy. Working with rural and urban agencies, I have provided dedicated guidance in curriculum writing, program and process design, and talent development and management. I have served a variety of for-profit and not-for-profit organizations around the country, including academic and religious institutions and parachurch organizations. From the podium to the pulpit, I have enjoyed engaging audiences with stories of impact, leadership development, and my years of nonprofit and ministry experience. I have authored blogs and articles, and have spoken at national and local conferences and workshops around Latina identity, empowering leadership, emerging young leadership, and more. My passions include creating communities of purpose and excellence - where together, people are appropriately empowered in their strengths. I excel at helping teams identify strengths and performance gaps, identifying key issues and strategies quickly, and helping teams discover how to resolve problems and innovate for the future. I am also an adjunct professor, teaching at the intersection of non-profit work, leadership, talent management, and ministry. Gallup Certified Strengths CoachStrengths: Strategic, Maximizer, Command, Activator, and Responsibility.Enneagram: 8w9DiSC: Di (The Seeker: action, results, enthusiasm)MBTI (Myers Briggs): ENTJ Transcript of Podcast:Dr. Bast: I would just wonder, Danielle, and I know you and I talked about this a little bit before, I think there's a part where, um, I think just kind of baked into the American expression of Latin culture is the sense of just like, um, indebtedness, um, and deep gratitude. And so there's always the inclination of just, um, of just that, the weight of that in some ways. Like the container of that, you know, that you're a guest, that you're always a guest in someone else's space. And so I think there's a, there's inside of that, or ingrained inside of that is a, is a sense of just, well, I'm so grateful for what I have that I don't wanna disrupt it for somebody else, or I don't wanna, I don't wanna disrupt the host, you know? And so I still wrestle with that because I think, I think there's a part of it that the older I get the truer that feels   Danielle: Hmm. Which part that you don't wanna disrupt or that you're a guest or  Yeah. That, um, the idea that, you know, what does it look like to not be a guest anymore? That sense of like, yeah. It's like we are guests and, and, and what does ownership, real ownership and agency look like?  Yeah. As you were talking about it, I was thinking about like how like a broader generalization of culture for us, I think is this idea of hospitality. Mm-hmm. and that we're already always welcoming, which, you know, I think probably goes back centuries.   Yep.   Dr. Bast: Centuries. So in that welcoming process, because other cultures may have a different intention, we often welcome to the point where we don't exist anymore, or we're moved out of our own space.   Yeah. Well, and I would say too, you know, I mean that's the part, that's the part where we are distinctly like the east meeting the west, you know, as there's a sense of that we really bring that eastern, um, framing with us forward is that, you know, when we migrated out, we never lost that sense of hospitality and what the indebtedness around the, the hospitality means for us as a community, what I offer others Yeah. And what I expect others to offer me. And so I think there's, uh, you know, but again, that's hard. What do you do when you feel like a perpetual guest?  And I don't like it that you said it like that, cuz it feels true and it feels really annoying. . Yeah. And, and again, you know, we talked about this a little bit before we got rolling, but talk to me about like, why you decided to make the Instagram post with the picture of your legs on the airplane.  Well, the it's for, for my two previous professional roles, I've, I've just spent a lot of time in airplanes and I've spent a lot of time, um, traveling. And there's, there's a part as I wrestled in my own issues about like, body and how much space, you know, I take up or how much space I embody. I just realized that there's probably no place that, that feels more true than being on an airplane. Like, there's this part of just, if I'm, if I'm a good citizen, if I'm sitting next to somebody, I'm making sure I'm only taking my space. You know, and I'm, I'm wrestling out with elbows and the arms and things like that. You know, I just wanna make sure that I'm doing right by the person next to me by, by keeping and holding my own space and not encouraging on theirs.  And then there's just been this interesting shift that I recognize that, um, I tend this experience that more with women, Like when we sit on the plane, we all kind of find ways to instinctively shrink. Or I will even hear women apologize, you know, like, Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, And, and so it's been this sense of like, okay, well, well that's maybe just, maybe it's embodied and gender, you know, that's just a sense of like, let me keep and hold my own space. However, um, it's been interesting for me to watch, um, from an anthropological sense of just some of the, the men that I've encountered sitting, and they're not bound in the same way, or not maybe mindful in the same way, where they feel like they don't have to, um, shrink and be small and to fit in their own space.  But the sense of like, well, I have to spread out and I need to spread out. You know, I need to, And I just, and I laugh in that because, and identifying their own physical need, um, they've been able to justify like, the ability to take my seat and their seat, you know, like . So trying to figure that out, like, ok, well this feels odd. And then in the middle of that saying, Well, what about, you know, I don't wanna show up in the same space. Cause I feel like that's inhospitable. You know, I would never think to take my seat and someone else's seat, you know, as a means of, because I have a need. And I, I feel that my need is unmet, but the sense of feeling like I can't push back either because well, he needs it, the person next to me needs it. And so I have to be smaller. And I'm like, that's so disgusting, . Mm-hmm. There's something that, that's apparently gross.  Danielle: And that also feels like a, that too feels like an easier entry point to talk about, like airplane spacing, then to talk about how that like actively happens as, as a Latina, as a Afro-Latina, as a Puerto Rican woman in spaces of leadership.  Dr. Bast: Yes. Yes. And I would say, and so really walking into that is this is this sense of, um, you know, how do I, how do I feel the space but not be too much? How do I like enter in and be full of myself, but not to defend, you know, all these things where there's like the caveat that cuts underneath it that says that, you know, it's that internal checklist that I feel a lot of us experience, um, because we wanna be invited back. And again, that's the difference between like a guest and a house member, right? Is that a guest is always mindful that the door can always be closed. You know, there's an entry point and exit point. There's a, a clock time in and a clock time out. Um, but ownership of the house means that I belong, you know, the house is mine. And so, um, access to the things will, you know, I have equal access to things with other people.  Danielle: Yeah. So we think about it like perpetual guests then where, like, where do you find rest? Like you specifically?  Dr. Bast: That is a really good question. You know, and I know this is gonna sound weird, but I think that one of the places that I probably find the most rest is on a stage when I'm speaking. And I think because at that point, like the, um, you know, the horses out of the gate, that point, I can, I'm wildly unpredictable to people, you know, But I, I would say I feel the most unfettered. You know, I can move, I can walk, I can, you know, I'm, I'm expressing what's on my mind in the way that makes sense to me, but also translates to other people. And I can, I can take and own and own that space, and there's a part where I think I could, I'm able to sink into who I really am, um, and be able to give a piece of that and to receive a piece of that back from people who are, who are on the stage. I would say that that feels almost like my most authentic space. And in that, because I can, I can fully be myself. I feel like I can best rest there.  Danielle: So when you think about like a broader sense of maybe even family or culture, do you have spaces where you find rest there as well? Or where you belong?  Dr. Bast: Yeah, I would say, uh, you know what, what feels probably the most true for me is, is that my family really provides that for me.  I'm really grateful that the family has given me the most space to be able to do that and to do that completely.  Danielle: now I'm just, I'm thinking about how you talk about the caveats and how, you know, you use the word wild to describe when you're in your, you're in your space or, or belonging. And, you know, wild has so many meanings in our culture. And, and I have one like interpretation of what that might mean. Like from our culture, I'm imagining alive by vivacious, um, able to laugh, able to cry, able to communicate. And yet I know, I also know that there's this other dominant lens that views that wild as also threatening.  Dr. Bast: Yep. I, um, I was sharing also this weekend, you know, that there's a part where I have, um, you know, when I, when I felt like the least my authentic self when I felt like I was, I was, I mean, I'm honestly just living outside of my intended design, you know, and I say that, you know, from a perspective of faith, but I was living outside of the design and I feel like God had designed me. And um, and I remember just praying and just saying like, what is wrong with me? And just feeling like the word domesticated. Like I felt that in my soul and, and that word I'm sure feels so dainty for some people and feels like so proper and appropriate, appropriate for some people. And for me, I felt sick to my stomach. I could feel it in the pit of my stomach, like, oh my gosh.  Like there was a part of me that I had, um, you know, and very similarly I saw it as like running hard and running fast and by, you know, being vivacious and, and you know, running, running with everything inside of me at full speed towards what I wanted. And then at the same time having space and play and, and being with others. And I had like diminished myself into the small tiny pocket of being, um, because all of that had had disrupted and disturbed the system so hard mm-hmm. . And so I remember just feeling that so clearly, like the word domesticated and just feeling like, just crushed because I had allowed people to do that. To me, that was a choice. Mm-hmm. , um, that I had allowed in my own life. And, and just kind of the, that internal vow to never let that happen again.  Yeah. I think of, you know, when I think of perpetual guests and domesticated, I mean, it has like literal meaning for the way, you know, I'm thinking of Latinas are viewed like house like majority housekeepers or cleaning your hotel or like the, the stereotypical roles like down to, I think of events I've gone to at local schools where it's like all the Mexican families, at least in my community are here. Everybody else is over here. And then there's a few black folks over here. So  Yeah. And, and that's so heartbreaking.  Yeah. It's heartbreaking to me. That's heartbreaking. But there's a part where it's like, I think people need, you know, especially going into those spaces and even going into some places where it's dominant culture spaces, like even just the idea being able to show fully as yourself, you know, is I wanna gingerly walk in with my tribe, you know, my squad because it's been so painful to do that on your own or, um, Yeah. The temptation, that code switch is so bad. Or even the sense of, of I've been punished when I've done that before  Danielle: Yeah. So when you cl like there's the bind, right? If you're the guest and you're the domesticated guest, you can fit in. Even at that point though, I think what I hear you saying is the door could slam at any moment and you could be shut out. But if you don't become the domesticated vet guest and you show up as you are, then you're also othered or walled off from access.  Yep. It's really the lose lose of that  Man that is sad.  Dr. Bast: Well, so here it is, it's sad if you don't own the house. Like this is the hard part is that it's, it's the sense of like, it's, you know, and again, I would hope that people coming into my house would understand the house rules. That there's, there are, uh, because of my responsibility to ownership, there are things that I set the ground rules for that not only keep my house in order, but keep, you know, keep it a safe place for other guests. The challenge becomes is, is really who owns the social house, You know, because there's a part where there's a lot of space that can be made. You know, there are behaviors that are allowed in my house because of who we are and how we do life, um, and what our tolerance is for disruption. Um, what our tolerance is for people to show by is their full selves, because we want people to, to feel that way when they come in our house.  And that's the beauty of ownership. When people are robbed of the opportunity, ability for ownership, and you are forever at the indebtedness of the house owner, you are forever at the mercy of the person who sets the, who sets the guest rules. And I think that is the true challenge is that because then there's this, um, this very definitive sense of like a right way to host and wrong way to host. Like, if a house is appropriate, it looks like this, and then the house owner gets to decide. And so what happens when you go into that space and you're like, Well, this isn't, this isn't correct. Like, this is not how my people would show up at a house, but, and then, but the house owner gets to say the house owner is Right. And so it's a very, it's a very tricky space. And, and for me, as I think about the future of what I would see Latinos and Latinas and, and for anybody who sits in a marginalized space, is that there would be more space for them to be house owners instead of just  Danielle: Yeah. And I think there's a sense of, in that space of having your house, then it's, there's a more, um, I don't wanna say pure, but a more authentic way to offer hospitality where there's not the demand or it's not the hospitality isn't a down payment.  Dr. Bast: Exactly. Well then it's transactional. Right? It's right.  Danielle: Right. Where it feels like that sense of hospitality we offer, I'm not saying it's always transactional, but, uh, I even think of like, when we've had certain people over to our house, the, the coaching of the children, , you're gonna need to say, hi, you're gonna need to do this. You need to, you know, X, y, z versus, you know, when we have other friends over, there's still some coaching, Right. Because there's etiquette and, and you know, uh, things we wanna do as ge as hosts, but there's also the freedom to be themselves.  Dr. Bast: Yep. Yep. And that's, I think that is critical because I think for some people the, the pushback is like, well, there's no etiquette and you can't confuse hospitality and etiquette for the same thing. You can't confuse being a guest with etiquette for the same thing. Um, cause it's possible to be very polite and still be horribly unw. And part of the etiquette is, is is not just about how to behave so everybody feels comfortable, but how to behave in such a way where everybody feels welcome.  Danielle: Right. Right. And I mean, that can happen to any of our communities too.  Dr. Bast: Absolutely. Absolutely.  Danielle: I mean, like, we live in dominant culture norms, like you're stating, but any one of us can adjust some of those values and then pass them on to our kids, or sometimes I think it's unconscious and sometimes it's intentional for survival too.  Dr. Bast: Yes, exactly. Well, and we see that a lot, you know, um, you know, I would say in like the maybe some of the more older models of like missionary training, you know, that there'd be a sensibility around like, Okay, this is how you behave. This is how, if you're going into this space, this is the language that they speak. These are the words they use. These are the dishes that they eat. And it's hard because in that same kind of like how to be most effective in those spaces, um, we have, um, willingly put those on our kids and on the next generation, because we do, I mean, there's that sense of urgency. We want you to not only survive here, but thrive here. And so this, this is the language, this is the way you have to do things. And I hope we're on the cusp of, of, of a new day where that's decided by a collective and not necessarily decided by an individual  Danielle: Yeah. It reminds me of the story. We are down in Mexico for a few weeks this summer, and, uh, we hadn't been to Guadalajara for like over eight years and we're down there. And so my daughter's 15, so she hadn't been there since she was like six or seven, and she was running around, and she came up to me and she's like, Mom, she's like, I have a question for her. I was like, Oh, yeah, sure. She's like, Why do I feel like I belong here more than anywhere else I am? And I was like, and she's like, But I've only been here, you know, a couple times in my life. And I was just like, Well, I, you know, like I have this scientific psychological lens, like it's in your DNA and blah, blah, blah. But really it's a sense of belonging, a sense of she could show up as her whole self  And see other people in her culture embodied in a way that felt, I think, resonated with her, although she didn't use that word. But the curiosity of like, why does this feel more like home?  Dr. Bast: Exactly. Exactly. And that, I mean, and again, like that's for people who are just like, well, I mean, you know, the purists, you know, like go back home or go back to your own country. It's, it's not the locale, you know, it's the sense of, it's the sense of who I get to be and the sense of how other people are around me. And there's a part where it's, it's hard work to cultivate that when we're not in those spaces, like when we're in other locations. But I think it's worth fighting for because again, like to have her say that she feels like she can show up for her full self, you know, that that feels like home. You know, what does that mean then for, you know, how do you make home in Washington state? How do you make home and Florida? How do you make home, you know, in all those spaces?  Um, she's in Europe, you know, what does that look like? And so it's just kind of fighting, you know, it's like the ruthless, intentional fighting for home, you know? And especially for a d you know, a d spo of people, you know, there's a sense of like, okay, I would love to say, well, I'm a turtle and so my home is always with me. Right. Um, but I wanna be able to say, you know, I'm a tree that has seeds that drop, and everywhere those seeds drop, they can root and that can also be home.  That's a powerful image because that is what dominant European Americans have been able to do.  Exactly. There's that. It's, it really is, it's a, it's a modern day event. Adventuring, you know, it's, it's that spirit of exploration that says, you know, I can plant my flag here and make space for myself mm-hmm. , you know, and, and claim space for myself. And, um, Yeah. And somewhere that died, you know, somewhere that died .  Danielle: Right. And I also think it's because if you think about our people's, they actually did travel and migrate, and that was part of who they were, and part of like, moving and shifting. And so when you think about like a border that's just kinda set down on land or colonialism, which did all of this border mapping without regards to the tribal people or the immigration patterns. And, and so therefore, you know, we're in the midst of all these conflicts and, you know, shut the border and da, da da. Well, I mean, like, there's centuries of history of people moving  Dr. Bast: Yep, exactly. Well, and again, being able to set the rules based on what you consider their experience to be. So, you know, I can call you, you know, an immigrant, you know, when you're really an refugee, you know, And so then I get to decide again, I own the house, so I get to decide because well, you're this class certification of guest  or you're illegal versus you're an asylum seeker.  They the color of your skin.  Country of origin, wherever the bus drops off.  Danielle: Yeah. I don't know if you saw this, but I think there's a ship that came from Puerto Rico that's stranded at sea. Have you seen the news on that?  No, I have not.  Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was in the news. And, and I think like it's been in a holding pattern to try to land, and I'm not sure, you know, why I didn't get into the article yet, but I'm not sure why this particular ship hasn't landed. I don't know who's on board, like what the politics of it are, but   you figure, you know, would that be acceptable if there were cars that were backed up, you know, and the border to Illinois.  Dr. Bast: And that's the hard part is I think, like, remember that old like, planco game, like from, um, um, what was it, the prices, right? Where you'd like drop the coin in and it would just kind of figure its way and then like clunk it down into a bucket and did a bunch of pegs, you know? And it, I think, you know, part of the conversations have diminished down to that, you know, And just like wherever you land, like that's who you get to be now. And I think we've went a couple steps backwards in like placing people in these very definitive container. I think the chaos of the last two years has reverted us back to, to extreme labels to be able to navigate how we need to show up and navigate our own disappointment in people. And so there's a part where it's like, you know, you know, people are complex, people are people, you know, and the conversations are complex and there's a lot of like, pain and history I think that people are willing to talk about.  But I, we, it's almost like we can't resist the urge to like categorize, because then, then I know how to show up. And there's a part where it's just like, if we just made space, I think it'd be a lot easier for people to say, There's a lot of gray here, and I, there's gray in my own space, and I'm willing to recognize the gray in your space to, to not like, be so quick to put a label on there, but to say, I'd rather have a conversation to get to know you as a human, Um, because that, that's the best deciding factor of whether, you know, you're gonna keep being a guest in my house, or you're gonna keep being a person I wanna like, journey with, or, you know, we share deeper intimacy you in our friendship because of that.  Danielle: When you say like, the chaos of the last two years, and you say like, you feel like we might have gone backwards. Do you have a specific example you're thinking of or a story?  Dr. Bast: Well, I'm actually thinking of just believe it or not, like some systems theory that most people for our brains, like when we're wired, when there's extreme chaos, that having like an enemy or having, even if you can't, if you can't look forward having an enemy, like your brain can, can set on that, right? And so it's easier for your brain to manage the chaos, you know, of what you're experiencing in the system. So a system will actually become less anxious if there's a common enemy. So it's this idea of like, everybody hating the lunch lady, you know, like everybody kind of cool out and there's like one bad guy. And, and so I think about that in, in, as people have navigated out of the chaos and, and there's no big bad guy, you know, the administration changes. And so you can't be, you're not as mad at one person, you know?  And so you need, we have to keep like, elevating villains because it's the only way we can manage our own anxiety. And so there's a part where it, it makes me nervous to see people who, who felt like there were collective things to talk about and, and believed in some of the both. And as we were navigating, um, especially things like quarantine have almost reverted back. You could feel like the rubber band snapped back to just having like smaller demons to, to villainize, um, because there's no like giant one demonn that they feel they can really center on.  Danielle: Whew. So who do you think the current villains are now?  Dr. Bast: Oh, you know, it's, it's, it feels murky. I don't know. And I think, I think that's it. Like the, the anxiety hasn't reached a fever pitch yet. I think we're back on the upswing of anxiety. Um, and so I'm curious, especially with pressures like inflation and, you know, even just our own federal system of like how states decide versus how the nation decides. Like right now, there's almost too many options. And I think, and I think the anxiety, my prediction is, is the closer we get to the next election cycle, we will see a fever pitch of anxiety and we'll see, we will see clear villains emerge.  Danielle: I agree. I think, I think we saw that kind of escalation. And sometimes I think of, I thought of it like as an, like a violent orgasm, a vi, you know, when we had like buffalo and Irvine and Alde, like we had all these things happen and mostly in communities of color, and then, you know, then there's an uprising and an uproar, and then everything just kinda lowers pitch. And I do feel like we're in that. I, I do see, you know, like Rob DeSantis and, um, you know, and Greg Abbott, you know, with their focus on migrants crossing the border and shipping them all over the country, you know, quote unquote shipping them. I do see that our community is a target and likely could be an escalated target in the coming years. I'm not sure how it will play out, I'm praying about that, but just that sense of we don't belong.  If you're the guest. And you know, that's so interesting that you say that because I think like, um, you know, for like the low hum of anxiety, I mean, most of us have that like low hum of anxiety that is generally in our life, you know, and it's, it's hard because it's so easy to exploit when there's a low hum to like, to put an, um, a title of a villain on something that is so nebulous and so big that nobody has enough language for it. Mm-hmm. . And so somebody publicly assigns language to it to say like, Oh, this is the problem. And people are like, Oh, good. Well, for my own anxiety. Yeah, exactly. That is the problem. And you're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, like we live in complex system with complex people with a complex history, you know, like it's to say one person is a problem is exceptionally uced. And so there's a part of that, but it's like, but if you, if you are experiencing that low hum of anxiety in your system, you're gonna look when somebody gives you the language of a villain, if you're not aware enough, or even if you're just lazy enough to not do the work that resolves the anxiety for you  Like, oh, yep, it's them mm-hmm. , and, and it's whoever the them is, you know, and if this becomes the new them or revisits is the new them, you know, then we'll, we'll see. We'll see people of color, especially brown people being responsible for everything from inflation to gas prices, even though we were just trying to, trying to get away from violence.  Danielle: Right. And I don't think it's a mistake that the last couple election cycles have focused on our communities.  Dr. Bast: Yeah. And I, you know, I'm glad to see like, at least like the overall recognition of, of how important, um, you know, our voter, the strength of our voting constituency is. And I think that's important. What makes me sad, and I don't think any any side is, is exempt from this, is that if all of a sudden the attention is honest, like, Oh, this is the new, you know, this is the new America or the new whatever, you know, and then all of a sudden things start coming out in Spanish, and I always am like, Where were you the other three years? You know, like, that's super fun. You're coming now ,  It's super amazing to see you three years ago or helping us clean up in our communities or helping us like, or listening to our concerns or holding space for us to be able to inform. And so it's, it, um, that always, I mean that just the short answer is that always like, rubs me the wrong way that like always sticks in my cross super bad where I'm like, Oh, look, all of a sudden, you know, whoever, whoever the Spanish speaker is in the camp is like trotted out like a show pony. it's kind of, that comes back to the original thought. We've been noodling on this whole conversation of you're still the guest mm-hmm. kinda like, it's almost like how do you get this guest intoxicated enough they'll listen to you. Right. Like,  That's a great way to put it. Yes, yes. And, and that's it. I mean, that, and that's the part what, when I think about the future and I think about the best way to empower people, it's being able to give them agency and ownership, you know, where they own the house. You know, like what does it look like for you to begin to own your own spaces and to, and to, to give new language for hospitality and to help be part of a community to reimagine hospitality and what that looks like.  Danielle: Yeah. I think one thing that struck me about the Uvalde school shooting was that that community had asked for years for the building to be remodeled and for landscaping. And when none of the funding came through, it was the Latinos right there in that community that went in and landscaped that went in and updated the building. And it was like across town where it was nearly an all white school with plenty of funding, plenty of access to resources. So it, it wasn't lost on me that after all of this and the community investment that this mass shooting happened here. Right.  Dr. Bast: Yep. And I think, you know, there's a part where I, I I agree with you, and then there's a part where I just, I wonder if there's, I, to me that feels, maybe that's the conversation for another day that almost feels like a whole pressure cooker of just, I mean, you see a lot of, like, you see a lot of brilliant and brave things that happen in that day, and you see a lot of like big misses and just mm-hmm. , you know, I mean, I was a gast watching that and watching, you know, the, the horror of some parents and the in activities and law enforcement. It was just a wild, you know, the whole thing just felt so wild. And it was, you know, I I I hope that never happens again, but I would wonder if, if people were able to put their fingers, they were pull back far enough where they could put their fingers on all the things that went wrong to ensure that never happens again.  Danielle: Yeah. And part of it just feels like self hatred.  I don't know. That's how it felt to me.  Dr. Bast: Yeah. Well, and, and you know, I, I remember somebody kind of made the offhand comment, and it wasn't, it wasn't public, but it was like, well, at this point now it's like we're doing this to ourselves, you know, so maybe we, we have normalized. And I was like, I'm like, how ho, you know, how wretched that, that would be like the bright line to say like, well, maybe we have integrated at some point because now we're victimizing our own communities. And, and it just, it broke my heart because, you know, of all the things to be able to identify with or to say that we've arrived, you know, that it would be the marker that we, we own the space enough that we can hate our own people enough to do that.  Disorienting the comment was super disorienting.  Danielle: Yeah. I think I felt like that, like, is this what assimilation looks like? And then, but I'm struck by your guest comment, and it feels like, it also feels like that is not a sign of assimilation because of the guest, the, the desperation, and I'm not justifying anything, but Oh, sure, sure. How violence could be a justification  As a means to achieve something. Right. To achieve something. Right. So I guess this whole conversation just means we have to do a lot of work in our communities.  Dr. Bast: Well, and I, but I think it first starts out, you know, it starts out with a posture, you know? Um, Yeah. I, I've always, I love the body positivity movement because, you know, it, it gives language to say things like no body's a bad body. You know, just like, you're not, you didn't, you're not moving to a, um, a body you can love better because it looks a different way and it appears a different way. And I wish we get to the same place, you know, in, in conversations especially around like multiracial, multiethnic bodies, that it's not like the more it looks like or the more it is something that it's a better body than the one that I've been given. And, you know, and when I, when I own that, when I can live into that, then I can, I can stand in a place of like positivity and like agreement with God.Danielle:  Like I, this, I'm, I am fearfully, wonderfully made. Like I am amazing because, and there's some places I show up as a guest and I'm just like, Okay, I'm discovering and figuring it out, and there's some places I know I'm showing up as a life of the party, You know, I'm like, you're lucky to have me here. Like, I'm awesome, you know, you're awesome, dude. We're about to be awesome together. Right.  But it's that kind of confidence of just saying like, this is, you know, in the time that I have here, this is exactly who I'm supposed to be, and how exciting is that? Instead of being like, Okay, how do I figure out how to make it work?  Danielle: Right. And I think that's in the text, right? Like in our faith and the scripture, just this idea that if we are fearfully and wonderfully made, then of course we are gonna have these combinations. And that's not a mistake.  It isn't like you appeared and God's like, Well, I can work with that  Dr. Bast: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I'll even say, Danielle, you know, there's a part where, you know, the complexity over the next generation, the next 40 years is gonna be around the fact that we we're not even gonna have the luxury of outlining, of outlining conversations around particular races. I, you know, we're, we're living in a society that's so comfortable with, you know, multiracial experiences and marriages and, and friendships, you know, that I think, um, that's gonna be tricky too. And so being able to just kind of start with that space that, that this is, um, you know, this is this, God saw this and, and intended for this, you know, or hoped for this. And, and me living into that as me partnering, you know, to, to bring good into the world. It's a whole different mindset than just then the idea of just like, well, this happened. And so, you know, somehow that is figuring out like, well, I guess, you know, , we'll figure out what to do with you.  Danielle: Right? I mean, it's that difference of being like, Well, I was born a sin, or I was born on purpose.  Dr. Bast: Yep. Exactly.  Danielle: Yeah. So what are, what are you reading right now? Like, what are you looking to, and who or what is inspiring you?  Dr. Bast: Oh my gosh. So I'm still my dissertation work. So I'm reading, I'm reading book about change in leadership theory. So is that fun? I dunno. Um, and I have to be honest with you, like, I think because my brain is moving all the time, I actually listen to things on the outside to check out. So I'm a documentary person. I'm, I'm curious about people, I'm, I'm curious about the motivations of people. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so for me, it can look like everything from, you know, just regular old documentary to like a crime series, because I'm like, how did this happen? Like, what happened here? So it's, I don't think it's fair to say that was inspired by those things,  Um, and then I've been trying in my downtime to really lean in, um, to more fiction. So I finally got on board and read where The Crowded Sing.  Danielle: And then who are, what's inspiring you?  Dr. Bast: Who are, what is inspiring in this moment? Oh, so I had two boys, and they are night and day. They are salt and pepper, they're oil and water. And I would have to say the youngest in all of his wildness is really challenging me in a deep way. Like both good and bad. Um, and there's a part that's bringing me to the brink of myself, but I'm, it's been like this real testing in time of how do I make space for somebody else? Those big feelings, big thoughts, big emotions, Um, and at the same time like navigate having order and, and making the space safe for everybody. And so it's been a, it's, it really, I mean, I hate to say it, but it's been inspirational for me because I've had to re read more and dig deeper, um, and show up differently and manage my own emotions like in real time. And so it's pushing me in ways that I hadn't anticipated.  Danielle: I like that. I like that. So folks wanna get a hold of you. I wanna follow your work. Where can they find you?  Dr. Bast: You could find me on Instagram, most likely at Elisa Cortez bass. And apparently if you Google me, I'm out there in some places, which I find fascinating and so weird. But yes, ,   

Danielle's Fall Story Groups:  https://wayfindingtherapy.com/groupsEmail or Call for more information (danielle@wayfindingtherapy.com)Spiritual Abuse Story Group (with Kali Jensen)Women of Color CoHort (With Abby Wong-Heffter/Jen Oyama Murphy)Race and Story (with Kali Jensen)The Art of Living Narrative Training.https://artoflivingcounseling.com///trauma-focused-narrative-group-therapy/Participants will have an opportunity to further their skills and develop their unique artistry in engaging stories of trauma. Participant will be taught how to structure and run story groups in the context of therapy offices, church settings or small groups.To give towards the scholarship fund, contact Cyndi Mesmer at artofliving2@me.com . The Allender CenterOur professional trainings include conferences that grow your capacity to help clients pursue trauma recovery, consultation weekends to receive insight regarding your work with clients, or our full certificate program, which is designed to provide foundational teaching and training in The Allender Theory and experiential personal story work.To find out more, click here . Impact MovementThe Impact Movement equips Black students to become disciples of Jesus Christ who integrate their faith into every aspect of their life.Maggie's Fall Story Group: https://www.storiedlifecoaching.com/story-groupshttps://www.storiedlifecoaching.comMental Health Resources:Mental health crisis linesWashington Recovery Help Line: 1-866-789-1511 (24/7)https://www.hca.wa.gov/health-care-services-supports/behavioral-health-recovery/mental-health-crisis-linesNAMI HelpLinehttps://www.nami.org/helpMaggie is reading: Everything Sad is Untrue (A True Story) by Daniel Nayeri. CORRECTION: He lived in Oklahoma, not Kansas.Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman. The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Maggie is listening to: Brené Brown's Audio book of Atlas of the Heart. Silence when possible.Maggie is inspired by: Flowers, especially peonies and roses grown locally.  Danielle is reading: What My Bones Know by Stephanie FooDanielle is listening to: Early 90's Rap, Silence and an occasional podcastDanielle is inspired by:  her kids  

In an ongoing season littered-literally - with bodies of color, lets disrupt norms, love one another well - advocate for one another, let's urgently pursue collective identity work for white bodies that can run in the same direction as the folks of color. Let us be active participants in healing collective trauma. Let us not further perpetuate the dominant cultural norms that I believe many conservative power brokers would curse on us and our society. Please - I ask you to consider how both addressing white supremacy and equity work need to start with the truth telling. Let us  -- as a nation -- tell a more true story to ourselves about where we are, what we are for, and where we are going.  Resources: Free Therapy in Uvalde: https://latinxtherapy.comGo Fund Me Uvalde: https://www.gofundme.com/c/act/donate-to-texas-elementary-school-shooting-reliefOn May 24, nineteen students and two adults were killed in a shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. The GoFundMe community is coming together to support all those affected. Our Trust & Safety team will continue to update this hub with more fundraisers as they are verified. Donate to verified Texas elementary school shooting fundraisers below to offer your help.Write/Email/Call Legislators:https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representativehttps://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm Mental Health Hotline:https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helplinehttps://www.mentalhealth.gov/get-help/immediate-help

Angie Hong is a worship leader, writer, and speaker. She has completing her master's of divinity from Duke University and lives in Durham, North Carolina, with her spouse and two children.Angie's Article in the Atlantic "The Flaw at the Center Purity Culture"Atlanta Spa Shooting - March 17, 2021Resources:The Folly of 'Purity Politics'     - A new book by Julie Beck that argues for the value of owning up to your imperfections.Link to The Purity Culture Research Collective that Jenny is a part of.Unpacking Purity Culture, Sex and Race (link here)May 22, 2022, 9AM-12:30PM PST"The Purity Culture teaching and movement has had a profound impact on shaping our identity in terms of our faith, sexuality, body, race, and gender.  It has helped to create an intense shame and beliefs of imbalances and distortions of power.  Left unattended these impacts have contributed to creating environments ripe for greater shame, abuse, and sexual disfunction.  Our hope in creating this panel discussion is to Unpack Purity Culture and to allow space, curiosity, and care for those who have been shaped by its teaching."Abby Wong- Heffter -  I reside and work on Duwamish land and identify as a cis, straight, mixed Chinese woman of color. I graduated from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology with a MA in Counseling Psychology after having completed my clinical internship in war-affected Northern Uganda, East Africa. Since obtaining my MA, I worked as a therapist for children and families in crisis. I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and Child Mental Health Specialist in the state of Washington. In addition to practicing therapy, I teach at The Seattle School as Affiliate Faculty and created the Concentration in Trauma and Abuse. I am also a founder of the Allender Center where I train and supervise clinicians who seek to specialize in Trauma-Informed Narrative Therapy. In my “former life” I worked in various social service realms where I acted as a case manager at an international adoption agency and a women and family's homeless shelter.Jenny McGrath - I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need.  By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us.  And that is where the magic happens! I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as white saviorism).  I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do.  I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality. Danielle S. Rueb - Castillejo - I hold an MA in Counseling in Psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate in Washington State, story lover, owner of Way-Finding Therapy, podcaster, avid reader, writer, adventurer and advocate. I love the anticipation of Spring and Summer in the Northwest - the long days and sunlight we miss in the dark winters. You can easily find me out on a trail, laughing, cooking with my kids, or working in my yard.Maggie Hemphill -  Born and raised in the Pacific Northwest, I live with my husband and our three kids in the greater Seattle area where we are close to family, water and mountains.  Trained for three years  (2019-2022) at the Allender Center in Narrative Focused Trauma Care learning to listen to and hold stories of trauma, bringing curiosity and kindness, offering attunement and containment and helping people move towards healing and redemption. I'm a Certified Professional Coach doing 1:1 life coaching and Story Groups. 

Connect with Jana through her website:  janalgpeterson.comNAIITS - North American Institute for Indigenous Theological StudiesHere are some resources:A great conversation on the Syrophoenician Woman from Dr. Mitzi Smith and her colleagues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVy-kp-3jDY&t=4994sThe book referenced by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove is Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder ReligionDr. Angela Parker's book If God Still Breathes, Why Can't I?Here are some pages from Mark and Method: New Approaches in Biblical Studies, edited by Janice Capel Anderson and Stephen D. Moore.  It's where Jana first read about the particular interpretations of Salome's dance. https://www.dropbox.com/s/vr93lcqlr7eq31a/Mark%20and%20Method%2C%20121-135.pdf?dl=0Lisa Sharon Harper and Randy Woodley on Closing the Narrative Gap - Peacing It All Together PodcastJana is reading Shoutin' in the Fire: An American Epistle by Danté Stewart. Jana is listening to: Paul Cardall's piano music. Jana is inspired by her children, the earth, Spring bringing new life and Lisa Sharon Harper

Poem Incident at the Oscars. Psalm 116:2 [NLT] "Because he bends down to listen, I will pray as long as I have breath!Connect with Susan on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/susanhcunningham/Or find her online at: https://www.susan-cunningham.com/Susan is listening to:  Kate Bowler's Podcast Everything HappensBrené Brown's Unlocking Us Podcast and Dare to Lead Podcasta podcast on griefSusan is reading:Mitch Albom's Stranger in the LifeboatRobert Johnson's Inner WorkLouise Glück's The Wild IrisSister Wendy Beckett's Meditations on SilenceSusan is inspired by: PoetryWalks through grape vineyards and almond orchards where she can witness the blooms announcing life. 

CORRECTION: Ancestors from Melitopol, Ukraine not Mariupol, Ukraine.The Daily Show's Trevor Noah on Refugees: "...refugee is not a synonym for brown person. Anyone could become a refugee. It's a thing that happens to you, it's not who you are." -Trevor NoahNAACP's tweet comparing the treatment of Haitian Refugees in 2021 to the treatment of enslaved people in the 1800s. Photo of Strollers left at the Poland Train Station for incoming Ukrainian Refugees.  Unpacking Workshops: Purity Culture Register HereINFO: Unpacking Purity Culture, Sex and Race, May 22, 2022 9AM-12:30PM PSTThis online workshop consists of 3 hours of content from the panelists discussing the intersections of sexuality, faith, body image, race, gender and church structures that are impacted by purity culture.  There will be two 15 minute breaks, moderated discussion in the chat, and resources to encourage further exploration into these complex intersections.  Panelists: Jenny McGrath (LMHC)      indwellcounseling.comTiffany Bluhm, Author, Speaker, Podcaster tiffanybluhm.comDanielle S. Castillejo (LMHCA) wayfindingtherapy.comAbby Wong-Heffter, (LMHC)        abbymwong.comKeisha Polonio, (MSWI) counselingandwellnessboutique.com/keishaWith Support From: , Kali A. Jensen, MA, LMHC cultivatecs.com, Susan Kim, MA, LMHCWay Finding TherapyRacial Trauma Care for Women of Color Summer in Story Group with Maggie and Vanessa Sadler of Abiding in Story. Application here. Racial Identity Work for White Folks - Story Group launching Fall of 2022 Danielle is reading: The newsDanielle is listening to: Soundtrack of Encanto, Dr Dre & Snoop Dogg, Soundtrack of The West Side StoryDanielle is inspired by: Working with others and her kids. Maggie is reading: The Gospel of John in Eugene Peterson's The Message, Redeeming Heartache by Dan Allender and Cathy Loerzel, Building a Story Brand by Don Miller. Maggie is listening to: Muse with her kids, Adam Young's podcast The Place We Find OurselvesMaggie is inspired by: the global response in support of Ukraine

TRIGGER WARNING-- This episode may be disruptive and uncomfortable for some listeners. If you become dysregulated, please pause and offer yourself kindness. Rebekah Vickery is a Psychotherapist in the Pacific Northwest at Heart Root Psychotherapy,  She's also the program coordinator at the Allender Center. She is a friend and Danielle's former classmate from Grad School.Connect with Rebekah: Email: rebekah@heart-root.com Website: https://www.heart-root.comResources: Series on Sister-Moms - https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/voices-of-sister-moms-part-one-introduction/Heart & Soul BBC podcast - The womb is a weapon - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0188t2wBecoming Worldly blog - https://becomingworldly.wordpress.comBooks:Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn JoyceQuivering Families by Emily Hunter McGowin---What is Quiver-Full Theology?The idea that some conservative Christians see large families as blessings from God, highlighting Psalms 127 that children are arrows in the quiver of a warrior.They encourage procreation (abstaining from and speaking against birth control) to advance God's Kingdom on earth and win the "culture wars".The family is central and meant to reflect God's Kingdom: The father is seen as representing God or High Priest, having final authority over the family. The Mother seen as the bride of Christ; her womb a weapon, her children are part of God's army.Many quiver-full families also homeschooled their children and were somewhat isolated from community in order to shelter/protect them from outside influences.---Rebekah is reading The Wild Edge of Sorrow. She is listening to "We Don't Talk about Bruno" from the movie Encanto as well as classical music. Rebekah is inspired by the stories of folks recovering and healing from the harmful impacts of Quiver-full theology. 

Jenny McGrath is a licensed mental health counselor who does somatic psychotherapy and teaches movement. She offers online classes and courses that help individuals find their way back to their body. She is passionate about helping folks who grew up in fundamental Christianity work through deconstruction in a way that honors their faith and their body.  She is researching purity culture and Christian nationalism by focusing on the impact of purity culture on people's subjective experience as well as the social impacts of the movement. You can learn more about Jenny and her work at www.indwellmovement.comAbby Wong-Heffter grew up in the Pacific Northwest with a 1st generation Chinese father and a white mother. Her experience of evangelical church and Christian education had her often in the experience of being a minority and haunted with a feeling of being on the “outside.” Abby is passionate about freedom for people at the cross sections of sexual and spiritual abuse, race, and our longing to belong.  She currently teaches at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology as well as The Allender Center for Trauma and Abuse. Her primary work is offering psychotherapy where she specializes in the experience of transracial adopted adults, childhood sexual abuse survivors, and those addressing racial identity. She also supervises new clinicians in a narrative approach and consults and coaches organizations working toward liberation.Purity Culture. Salt-n-Pepa's "Let's Talk About Sex Baby!"Abby's Guilty Pleasure was John Mayer's Your Body's A Wonderland. Jenny says, Salt-n-Pepa were singing these songs about sex and sexuality in the middle of the AIDS crisis. It was so powerful. Danielle remembers being introduced to “secular music” like Missy Elliot and not being able to stop listening to it. She felt deeply connected. Abby says it was right and good for her to have a crush on an older married man because it was “Christian” – speaking of her Michael W Smith poster in her bedroom. Danielle asks who came up with this shit?Jenny said it was a conglomerate but one of the biggest contributors was the True Love Waits Campaign of 1993. A large group of youth gathered in Washington DC to put their “purity cards” staking in government land. This was the time of “purity rings” and “purity conferences.” Soon after the infamous book, “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” came out. All these things were happening within the first few years of the 1990s.Abby said it feels like it was built upon the work of James Dobson and Focus on the Family –There was a big push on families and for the Christian community to create manuals for “How to Raise Your Children Godly.” There were conversations about appropriate touching, and messaging around massages and dances leading to sex. Purity culture had a big platform to build off of. Focus on the Family was the foundation for the churches Danielle grew up, for how to view family.Jenny adds it was a very narrow, white heteronormative patriarchal view of family. James Dobson talked about how he didn't agree with interracial marriage because people were unequally yoked. There were other racists ideas propagated as well. Focus on the Family was always about focusing on the White Christian Patriarchal Heteronormative family. Danielle says looking back she can now see why I never felt at peace in any of these places. It feels less crazy-making; it was designed to be this way. Abby talks about the intersection of purity culture and race—she says converge in the vision that was cast of a knight in shining armor was saving the damsel in destress who was a Northern European female, pure and virginal. It was this place where the “holiness and goodness” of being chosen met the standard/ideal (of womanhood) that she could never fit as a woman of Asian ancestry. Because she could not change her ethnicity, she focused on what she could control: her purity, and being rigid with rules. Jenny hears in that the set up for continued/perpetuation of harm. The only access to power that Abby would have is by disempowering her own agency, her own body. It was taking any sense of choice and desire off the table. It stripped her of agency, voice and consent. Abby had proximity to the language around “the Jezebel,” though she didn't grow up with it. So where there could be any sense of power, even in being able to flirt, it had already been deemed bad. She could honestly not think of a worse word in the Christian culture to call a woman. Where young people are meant to learn to play, explore and rein in their sexuality, she would be made fun of for not doing it right or she would be called some form of “slut.” This is a place where we come into our power—learning how to bring ourselves sexually into the world. Jenny agrees. Sexuality is not compartmentalized—it is intertwined in how we show up in other areas of our lives. So the purity culture takes away freedom and curiosity. Jenny, as a white heteronormative woman did fit the ideal of “purity” [that Abby was talking about] and it led to a sense of needing to be dissociated. Whether it was flirting or enjoying a PG 13 movie, there was immediately shame for her. She felt she would have to spend hours journaling to purge her sin. The only thing that was safe was to be completely disconnected from sexuality, from eroticism, from life. All the things that are a part of being embodied beings.Danielle, having grown up as a child who's been traumatized sexually, she felt like she would always have to ask for forgiveness and she would never attain it. There was a sense of “will I ever get to heaven?” There was no framework for sexual trauma, abuse or harm. It was all lumped in the same boat of “purity.” At that point, you're always striving for something you know you can never get to. It was maddening and so she eventually gave up. Danielle said others would change themselves, through eating or exercise, to try to get rid of this thing that happened to me since they could never be pure?Abby said even the language is crazy-making. In Youth Group, or in her case she went to a Christian High School, there was “cute-sy” form of sex education – purity culture is married to false naivety that doesn't acknowledge that 1 out of 2 kids has been sexually abused. They treated kids like they have a lack of experience in the world as teenagers, and that there is some way to be pure now without having named/acknowledged what they've already been exposed to by this age. It required the kid to stay ignorant. Abby said that for Danielle it would be she would have to remain an outcast because she already knew something of this “thing” (sex) that is being talked about. Danielle said it is like already knowing the end of the story, and know more than your teacher. You're not supposed to know, and they know that you're not supposed to know. Danielle says it makes you feel trapped or chained, binding to the sources of additional harm. Abby says “damning” is the word that comes to mind. Jenny says it's very normative categories of gender. This was the message that so many folks who were socialized as “girl experience” heard. The people who were socialized as male were told “you are going to perpetrate harm, you are not in control of your sexuality.” The sense was that “he” feels so threatening. There is an entire sector of people in-between these who don't have language and are not seen. Non-binary and gender fluid received no teaching about what it means to live in a body that doesn't fit in these very binary categories of gender.  Abby was listening to something on the radio recently about the set up for the gay and queer community in the 1980s. This experience of “I only have these two options” bumps up against so many areas of injustice where purity culture is part of oppression. Of course, oppression creates more oppression for people who are already oppressed. Purity culture gives a false sense of being able to accomplish something and gain power. It wouldn't have been as intoxicating if it weren't for the sense that you could be more powerful if you were “pure.” There are so many people who couldn't actually get there, and even more so for non-binary, trans and queer folks. For them, sitting and listening to lectures and sermons on what it means to “pure” there would be an immediate sense that there is nothing they can do here, outside of being a eunuch. Words are weaponized so we know where to stay to be right and good. Danielle said it was often a white male pastor that was preaching this message to young teens. When you dig into some of the leaders' stories, they never held themselves to this standard. The same is true with your parents, it's not what they held themselves to, even coming out of the same faith tradition. So it's almost like these white leaders were able to reenact their own kingdoms, to maintain their own power in their churches and youth groups like mini power centers. You can gain a lot of control over diverse groups in that scenario. Jenny said this reminds her what Danielle was saying earlier: If you're told that you're going to be like chewed up gum, and that you're only value isn't valuable if you have sex or any sexual experience at all, then when you're a survivor of sexual abuse you're not going to tell anyone or go to anyone because in that world it means you're “spoiled.” Rather than giving someone full language around their sexual abuse and telling them that it doesn't take away their value, dignity or worth nor it is a reflection doing something wrong. This idea of spoiling something pure really perpetuates the system, enabling abuse and preying on victims because perpetrators know that victims have nowhere to go to have nuanced caring conversations in that world. Abby says Jenny is speaking to how the purity culture has created a foundation for exploitation. One level of vulnerability to this system is anyone who has felt a sense of not belonging, a sense of orphan-ness, that there was no one there to attune to you, the purity movement would feel compelling because it provides a sense of being contained and parented inside a set of norms and rules. Another level would be to add in places of race, gender, sexual orientation or neurodivergence, all the places where there is marginalization and sexual abuse. Abby has heard again and again in her work of people being betrayed by the purity culture. For instance someone who is “saving themselves” (to have sexual intercourse until they are married) is vulnerable to someone who is in the know of that language. There is a sense of grooming, saying to them, “I'm going to help you become pure.” This is a normal way that predators work within the vocabulary of purity culture. If you want to sexually exploit people, the purity culture is a prime place to find vulnerable people.  Jenny says purity culture, Focus on the Family, James Dobson … they are all part of the system of the Christian Right. She says there is often a myth that it is because of abortion that the religious right exists. However, it was actually in the 1970s when Bob Jones University was going to lose their tax-exempt status because they were discriminating students of color. This was the reason Jerry Falwell and the Religious Right formed in order to fight against what they were calling Religious Freedom in the name of discrimination. From it's very origin, it was a system to uphold racism in the name of Christianity. Jenny believes the Purity Culture was just another reiteration of the same thing, gaining power towards the larger Christian Nationalism movement.  Danielle read Kristin Kobes Du Mez' “Jesus and John Wayne” so she knows the information but hearing it again it shuts her down. “It's staggering that there have been reiterations of this since the first invasion into this land that we're calling the United States. Where sex and race has been married to religion” not faith. She's stuck by the need to continually reinvent this in order to maintain power. In 2022 we're dealing with the aftereffects and it's still circulating in churches and communities today. The legacy of harm has continued and how hard it is to break out of this system. Abby said it reminds her of how distorted Jesus gets as the Religious Right is committed to policing bodies. Purity Culture is a way for our bodies to be policed. In her understanding of reading the Gospels, this is so opposite of who Jesus was. Abby thinks this has been a way to gain power for a particular group of people. Danielle said it wouldn't be reinvented if it wasn't working. Abby adds, exactly. Danielle jokes, “come to our workshop.” Danielle says this is why we continue to talk about it. Abby wonders how many years each of them have spent to detox from this message that was so thorough. As people who are working actively for the liberation of others, they too are still having to seek their own therapy, go on yoga retreats… to keep enforcing the goodness of their bodies, desire and arousal. Especially in raising teenagers, Abby says she can feel the ghost of purity culture that she has to constantly fight. Jenny says that is what makes it so insidious and powerful, when you're hearing all the messages from when you're a child. If you question them your eternity is hanging in the balance. It's an ingrained fear of hell, punishment and eternal damnation as well as the fear mongering that happens around what could happen if you have sex outside of marriage or outside of these heteronormative categories. There is so much fear that is takes literal years to work out all the implicit messages. Even if Jenny's head believes something, often times her body responds totally differently. Danielle agrees. Even with all the ups and downs of her relationship with her partner they are still working things out, with things like talking through who does the finances. When they were first together they came in with a set of norms and expectations. She said to him, you have to do the finances because you're the man. He was like okay. But it didn't work for them. Not because he wasn't capable, he just didn't like doing it. One day he said to her, this is nowhere in the Bible! And he was right. And she asked who told them this?! Danielle thinks of all the little things that she and her husband Luis are constantly renegotiating to find out what's in the Bible and ask why they feel terror if they do things a way that is different from their formative faith tradition. Our bodies are trying to constrict and they're not meant to.  Abby asks Jenny if she has come across where the purity culture meets the post-WWII white picket fence and standard gender roles; what a good woman is? What are her duties? Where is the women confided to? Because it does feel connected to Purity Culture. Jenny says the more she has researched, the farther back she's had to go in time. She's looked at the creation of the Bourgeoisie Woman and Pre-US history, the idea of this White European woman. The first US colony was Virginia because the queen was supposedly a virgin. There is the hyper-emphasis on white woman's virginity while we know settler colonial men were raping and abusing indigenous women all throughout the Americas. The justification for raping Indigenous or enslaved African Women was that they were Jezebels and that you couldn't rape someone who always wanted to have sex. This justification was both for harming women of color and creating a distinction what is “proper.” Jenny believe that white women are very much complicit in this through the disembodiment and disavowal of agency, autonomy and sexuality that perpetuations these tropes and gender and racial norms. These racial and gender norms got more infused after WWII when the GI Bill expanded what white meant. Before the GI Bill, Polish and Irish were not “white.” Once “white” expanded, Jenny explains, this is when norms were created around what a white woman should look like, act, do, etc. This is where skirts and casseroles and all these ideas of what being a white woman meant. It was meant to separate white women from women of color who were not able to get the same kinds of home loans through the GI Bill because of redlining, thus continuing (and widening!) the disparity.  Abby says listening to Jenny talk about this history brings to her mind what happened last April in Atlanta with the shoot of 6 Asian Women by a man who claimed that purity culture is what forced him to become mentally ill and justified him acting out in violence. Here again, Abby says, is the convergence of race and purity culture. Here, Asian women are seen as both meek, submissive and demure as well as wild tigers. It is propagating this idea that what women of color offer sexually is different than what white woman offer. Danielle adds, and access. That the body of a woman of color is quick, not literally physically all the time but at least mentally to go there it's “quick” and built-in permission to do that. It makes Jenny think of this “protect the family” at the same time, the government is forcibly removing Indigenous children from their mothers and putting them in foster care system. Missing and murdered Indigenous Women, Anti-Asian hate crimes, crimes against all bodies of color and the LGBTQ community are not protected under the guise of “for the family,” “keeping families together.”Danielle says we saw that in Atlanta: it wasn't only the legal system that let him walk off the scene without being killed. There was also the silence across religious and faith circles. Abby said that when people heard why he justified the killings they felt bad for him, offered him sympathy, “oh he's struggling with a sex addiction…” “I'm going to go on a little patriarchal rant…” Abby said she is not suggesting that the purity culture didn't wreak havoc on the male body, however even when we go back to our youth groups, there's a sense that women are to feel bad about something that is out of control in men, and that makes us as women dangerous. In the Atlanta shootings there was a sheriff that made excuses for the shooter, and this didn't surprise Abby because it comes from the same vein of making excuses for white men doing violence and acting out sexually. Danielle said she's had that same thought (about justifying and excusing white men's behavior) when a youth pastor shares about an on-going struggle with pornography and there was never the impression that they were in danger of not going to heaven. In fact, it seemed like it was kind of expected they would struggle in this way; 1 in 3 pastor's struggles with porn because they're so focused on being pure; they are tempted so much. This has led to permission to not only continue with this behavior but Danielle says it has led to violence and murders, like these shooting in Atlanta. “It's like a blank check.”Because, Danielle adds, if a woman of color walked into a porn shop and shoots seven white men, she would not get out of that alive. “No way” Abby chimes in.Danielle says we have examples of that, a case of that actively in Texas—a woman of color is in jail for murdering her trafficker. She's 17 and has life in prison. https://people.com/crime/zephaniah-trevino-case-texas-teen-accused-murder-says-she-was-sex-trafficking-victim/

This episode was recorded in Dec 20, 2021. Tracy Johnson – Lives in Austin, Tx. Works with and for Chris Bruno at Restoration Counseling in Fort Collins, Colorado. She is the founder and Chief editor of Red Tent Living Magazine, online space for women around the world. She works in the virtual world with story work and spiritual direction, seeing people from all over the world. Chris Bruno – Founded Restoration Counseling 12 years ago after living overseas doing missions. He is a licensed professional counselor and works locally with folks as well as online. He has been doing a lot more Intensives and group intensives – the opportunity to spend more focused time. He loves that work. He also founded Restoration Project, which is focused on men, fathering and brother-ing, exploring what it means to be a son. Danielle has had an increase in requests for support, coaching and counseling. Where can we plug people in? What's available?Tracy has had similar experiences – there was a lull in the summer when people were out enjoying the sun but she too is experiencing an uptick with people needing help. Tracy believes that COVID, the pandemic and isolation has shrunk space that used to be expansive inside of people, and people are noticing they are less well. Before there may have been pockets of anxiety or depression before but now is it more prevalent and feels like it doesn't go away.She says the same is true for spirituality—before the pandemic people may have masked a struggle with their spirituality by continuing to go to church and bible study, but as that went away, the questions have surfaced and there is more disruption between their relationship with God and their relationship with the Church.Chris agrees with both. The way he conceptualizes where we've been is by looking back to 2020-2021 New Years when there was an emotional rally. As a world, we said “2020 sucked! It sucked the life out of us” and yet mentally and emotionally there was this thought that “2021” will be different. But this year, as we realized that the pandemic is not going away, and the coping mechanisms aren't going to help us any more than they did before. This are not shifting. “Deferred Hope.” 2021 was a thinning of this hope. The last little bit of hope in relationships, marriages, etc. has eroded. He's seen this too in their Thrive Marriage Lab online – relationships seem more tense, thin and desperate. Like it could move to crisis if it's not dealt with. Tracy says we're set up for the same this year looking at 2022. We can make no plans; everything is subject to cancelation. We're not okay again.Chris wants to invite people to do something different in 2022. There isn't a going back to normal—the normal that we know is now different and therefore the internal work we do needs to be different. The mental, emotional and relationship work needs to look different than what it was and what we assumed. There is a shift in how we need to work on and expand “the space inside” that is no longer spacious. This is the important work that needs to be done in 2022. Tracy said those can be part of what comes in the New Year—it is just a fact that we will never go back to where we were before. She thinks what we're learning to do now is about tending to ourselves in ways that we've never had to do that before. There was so much noise pre-pandemic with traveling and parties, gatherings and going to the office… It's kept us from having to listen to our internal selves. How do we learn to tend to this internal space? What does that mean and what does it look like for me? For some people, that tending needs to be done with a therapist or licensed counselors. For others that looks like tending to the stories that our bodies and souls hold; To listen and care for those stories. Now is the time to do this work. “Our world has changed and so that we're going to be in our world has to change, like it or not.”Danielle said she has been paying a trainer to work out twice a week because first she doesn't want to get COVID in a gym class but secondly because she likes the attention on her—that there is someone who it watching and attending to her body. A few days before this recording, her trainer told her that the average human uses between 50-70% of the air in their lungs. That means we're only breathing at 50-70% our capacity. Danielle was un-attentive to her breathe, and as her heart rate get high her trainer said, “you're not in your body!” Danielle was thinking, “hey I'm the therapist!” But her trainer replied, “If you want to push yourself, you have to be present. You have to pay attention to your body.” Danielle said this interaction with her trainer in a sense is like what Chris is doing with intensives—it is expanding someone's capacity to stay present in themselves and their relationships. Chris loves that image of how much space is your lungs and in your body and the invitation to pay attention to it. Some of the work around story is about being aware of and staying in your body. “How present are you to what's happening inside of you?” Restoration Counseling's logo is a cross-section of a tree. The outside, Chris says, is the adult part of us. The inside are all the rings of the life of the tree. Those rings are still inside the tree, marking the dry years, the years with a lot of sun, the shade of another tree. You can read the story of how that tree was shaped by the rings. All you see from the outside is just the outside, but all the stories of all the days that tree has ever lived are still inside that tree. Humans are the same—we have all those parts of us that live inside of us. And what he believes Tracy is saying is do we have enough space to attend to those parts that are living with us. As an example from a recent intensive Chris hosted, while working with a man in his 40s, present in the work was his 3 year old self, his 5 year old, 13 year old, 18 year old… All those parts had no space to live and to tell their stories. Those parts are all interacting with the present day trauma, isolation, anxiety… We have to in our present day have space for our past day to still live inside us. Can we have the capacity to increase our “lung capacity” for our stories to live in us?Tracy liked what Danielle said about choosing to have a personal trainer – those trainers eyes are on you, noticing how your body is positioned, what it's doing. You can't do this for yourself; even with a mirror you can't totally see whether you're the correct position so that you don't hurt yourself. She has never had that kind of witness like she did when she first started counseling and story work – having someone attend to her and notice her eyes, face and body shifting. It invited her to think and be with herself different. I wonder why I did that?For listeners, she said that may sound a little woo-woo… But she believes this is what we were designed for. This is why Jesus had to come in the flesh—it was to experience with-ness. To have someone physically watching you, being with you and noticing you… It has been such a gift to even have a zoom space that is devoted to that. Part of what we've lost in all the years of noise, that has taken up so much space, is our ability to be with ourselves. And the pandemic has brought the silence and space we need to attend to those places. We are made for with-ness and that is what we've been needing: to have a witness. With-ness can be learned in the therapeutic and Story Work spaces. Once someone has done this with and for you, then you can in turn be with and for others. Tracy believes this is what will heal us. Danielle lost her last grandparent the day before thanksgiving. She cried and grieved. But in the last week she's been with people and she's felt sad and she's just let her tears come. Mostly it's been with her officemates. They've asked her what's coming up and she said she doesn't know but she's just sad. And her colleague said, “Yeah I think we're going to be sad for a while. I'm sad too.” It was comforting to be seen in her sadness and to know that other are with her in her sadness. It restored some space in her. Tracy said we need to be able to be sad with one another. She thinks that when we're able to experience sadness with one another, the feeling of depression is less. Depression is “I'm a sad and I am alone. I have fallen into this deep pit and I can't get out of it.” It feels like no one else is sad. But when we know that we're not alone, it's like we're not falling down the pit at the same rate. Feeling sad is normal, it doesn't have to mean there is something wrong with me. Perhaps it means something is right about me. And each person's sadness will be different but there is a sense of with-ness if knowing that you are not sad alone. Tracy said she didn't lose a grandparent but she has lost a friend. She knows something of the sadness of loss. And while its not the same, they both can witness each other's sadness. Chris says the worse experience a human can have is the experience is aloneness. There is s sense that if I am actually alone, I don't have a buoy or a tether to keep me human. He believes the human experience is meant to be done together. Calling on places in scripture where is says, “mourn with those who mourn, rejoice with those who rejoice.” Whether it is rejoicing or mourning, it is elevated when it is done together. To be sad with one another does not mean that you are not able to be joyful or even laughing in the next second. There is the sadness of the loss of Danielle's grandmother and there is a beautiful memory about her life. Both of them can co-exist. When someone is spiraling out in depression, they are losing the ability to have this co-existence of emotions; holding grief and joy, celebration and sadness being so close together. Danielle agrees, grief and joy are so connected.Tracy adds, but most people don't live like there are connected. She believes this is a sad biproduct in Church circles because of the Church's focus on joy, not mourning like those who don't have hope. It contributes to people feeling alone. “I can't be at church and have my sadness shared. I'm doing to be told I need to rally and get out of it, to grab on to some joy or hope so everyone isn't uncomfortable with my grief and sadness.” This is another forced shift that has been very disorienting for a lot of Christian folks. This is no longer working during this pandemic season.Danielle circles back to what Chris shared that the tools we've had to cope with a starting a new year, aren't going to be enough this time around. It can be so intimating to reach out to therapists, counselors and story groups, Danielle asks how people can find the work that they are doing:Tracy, who does the Story Work and Spiritual Direction, said they have openings right now just head over to their website and hit the drop-down menu option for what you're wanting. www.restorationcounselingnoco.comThere are also intensives available, for those who want to do 2-3 days rather than every other week rhythm. Available for both men and women. Thrive Marriage lab- couples wanting support to have better conversations. Affordable way to do something for your marriage. Chris mentioned the “Re-Story Experience Coordinator” – helps people find the best care for what they need. Identifies an avenue of care, and if it doesn't exist within Restoration Counseling, she will help you find what you need. If you are in Colorado, their therapists can work with you. Intensive are 15 hours of face-time… It's condensing 15 weeks of engagement. Intensive work with you counseling, before and after. It's increased care to help you get unstuck. Tracy says to those who are “just getting by:” what would it looks like to imagine more than just getting by? That you're worth more than just getting by. The choice to seek out care is an investment and that can be the hardest part for people who are just getting by. She wants to say to them there's more for you, and you don't know what you don't know. Lend them some trust! This is what they do. Invest in yourself, you are worth it. Chris adds, for the person who is just getting by they have found some level of management with their coping strategies, he says “do you want to have a lifetime of coping or a lifetime of living?” We do things outside of soul care to take care of ourselves, like the dentist! We go to prevent cavities in addition to helping cavities. The same is for self-care and soul care.CALL 1-855 -RESTORY will get you to Katelyn the ReStory Experience Coordinator. Chris says for 2022, can we welcome where we currently find ourselves and wonder what is now available in the coming year?

We have a special bonus episode today as we remember one year ago and the Jan 6th (2021) insurrection at the capitol. We've asked former guests, friends and colleagues what they remember about this day? What this event meant to them? How they are feeling a year later. Hearing the words, stories and tears from each of the folks who've taken the time to lend their voice to this project has been a powerful lament. Maggie has felt them deeply within her body. So because of this was a traumatic event and these are stories recounting trauma responses, you the listener may also experience mild to significant discomfort. Please consider good self care, be mindful of yourself and taking breaks as needed. Here is the number for a national mental health care hotline, if you need to talk to someone1-800-273-8255Maggie start us off by reading an excerpt from her journal:"Jan 6, 2021 Honestly I've got too many words and thoughts for what has transpired today. Trump supporters, radicalized and encouraged by Trump, rioted, broke into the US Capitol and sought to stop the counting of the electoral votes claiming election fraud. “An Election was stolen,” Trump said. 4 Dead. Many arrested. I'm completely shocked at the scary and dangerous level of these “nationalists.” Really, it's the stuff we hear about happening in other countries. This is the world we brought our children into? Wow. I want to have hope in our government but I clearly cannot. I want to see change led by the church, but I do not. "Where are you God and what are you up to? Your endless patience, long suffering and waiting for someone to partner with… I just don't think humankind has got enough for you to work with right now. [And yet] even as I write this I know it to not be true. [Once] again I'm looking in the wrong place. "God show me. I know in my head you are good and you are near. I can't feel you. I can't see you. Help me. I want you to make all things new. Have you started? I know you're doing things in my family and in me… but what is [happening in] the big picture? Where is the grand finale, the great reversal, the coming of your upside-down kingdom?"These are strange and wild times. Division is palpable. I can feel myself want to withdraw inward, to hole up and focus on “just my little world,” but I know this is not the way. Maggie said she remembers in the days and months following that day, the haunting and disturbing images on the news and in social media. "I felt sick, disgust, anxious and afraid. Truly afraid for the uncertain times ahead."She says  some of these feels continue even into this morning reading the news regarding the investigation that there is “significant testimony” that Trump's own daughter asked him to intervene and stop what was happening at the capitol and he refused. "The disgust and  fear around how much evil was at work that day is scary, even a year later."  Written Statement (No Audio Available):Though I wasn't in front of the news last January 6, the tension in the air was palpable. As the day unfolded, I found myself in shock & disbelief as the nation's Capitol was overrun by What appeared to be primally driven, animistic behavior. There was nothing I could scrape together in myMind to make sense of the behavior. I was not aware these events were to take place. I attempted to make sense of the whole in shock, anguish, and disgust. The right was blaming the left. Groups claiming a "few bad apples" ruined the intended peaceful rally. I do not believe that small collective accurately represent entire organizations or people groups.    Nevertheless, I was horrified as I continued to read about gallows, a noose, and defecation. How do we turn a blind eye to something so horrific? I find myself in an interesting place. The masses of my friends have chosen to spend the last number of years learning, growing, understanding, and attempting to change this nation's shameful history of racial exploitation and misogynistic white structures. Being white, it would be remiss for me not to name the times I have felt I am not a part of this. And yet, if I'm honest, heartbreakingly, I am. There are no two ways about it. We all are.  At times I have quietly listened as the events and ramifications of that day have been discussed; other times, I have not been so quiet. For me, nausea and sadness, coupled with anger, caused questions to roll over and over in my mind. How in the world are the events of that day be considered a step toward making America great again, and not a permanent stain on who we are, And how far we have to go? Written Statement #2 (audio available):January 6, 2021 I found myself at home, just a regular old pandemic living type of day. I bathed my kids, nursed my "baby" for the last time, I baked a loaf of sourdough bread, all while trying not to draw my kids attention to the constant news that was playing in the background.As I watched both the news covering the insurrection at the capital and the footage of the Trump rallies nearby I would jump back-and-forth between the two events and also to commentary from several major news networks. My body was tense, I remember feeling torn and anxious and worried and almost displaced from reality. Something in me needed to SAY something or DO something especially because many around me or not or were downplaying what we were watching unfold.I took to my Facebook page and wrote the status update "This is terrorism, white privilege, idol worship, and insurrection on full display. To not denounce it is harmful."As I look at it now and recount the comments posted in reply. I look at the 'reactions' chosen by people and I wonder did they use the angry face because they were angry at what was happening, or at me for calling it like I was seeing it. I look back at those reactions a year later and I still am not certain. I remember learning about the term "terrorism" and the complicated nature of the word itself. Using it to describe what happened on January 6, I learned, could have serious ramifications for BIPOC individuals and even on legistaltion. I'm so thankful for the folks who took time to teach about this, and also glad I recorded my learning in the comments because I can revisit how important that type of leraning was and is. I also didn't just dirty delete something, the folks in the thread to follow along as my understanding developed and changed. As I learned that using the word terrorism for this type of event can be harmful, even if at the time it was the most accurate word I had for what I was watching, people in the comments learned with me. I also see now that my gut reaction of calling this "white nationalism" or an "insurrection" were accurate.I lost friends because of that thread, some in person and some online friends. But, I don't regret calling it what it was. In fact I'm really grateful for the people who also did the same, when I asked my friends what they were doing or remember from this day a year ago one said, "I remember feeling terrible about the event but I felt equally terrible about my Christian peers saying nothing." That struck me and upon reflection I'm glad my instincts were to cry out even if it wasn't an actionable step and especially because it led me to a deeper understanding.I recall jumping into text threads and asking others “are you seeing this to?” “What are we watching unfold?” And the sad part is our guts were right. I remember the prophetic voices in my life years prior predicting it would all go this way. Who then were there giving accurate insights into what was happening, never saying "I told you so," but instead helping us process, think about what we could do to keep POC around us safe, anticipating what else might come next. What a sacred and devastating place to be.Now a year later it is not lost on me that January 6 is the 12th day of Christmas where some celebrate the day of epiphany. One year later I find myself in this tension again celebrating and mourning, questioning and wondering. Reading the updates about what Congress is unearthing around this event, wishing and hoping we could know the full truth of what actually went down and realizing we may never know except for what we saw with our own eyes… And even that feels complicated because everybody's lived experience and perception is their own reality and everyone saw it so differently. I still find myself anxious and in knots when thinking about what happened and what has or has not happened since. The tension is palpable and the devastation unresolved. Written Statement (no audio):"Just saw some pictures from January 6th. Got physically sick. I am not going to do a recording, As a survivor of 48 years with malignantly narcissistic men...it was very familiar nightmare I watched unfold that day. And, the consequent gas lighting of too many. Blatant abuse. And, even then people would keep him in office. Its is beyond words for me. Heart sick."  Remember January 6th 2021 –Deanna Gemmer, Director of Community Development, Summit Ave ChurchAt work, writing on social media about the feast of epiphany. But also I kinda kept check twitter – had been intentional about adding voices from POC to news feed as I had been learning about my own blind spots and ignorance. These folks were warning of violence.At one point I switched on live news coverage and couldn't stop watching. It felt like a foreign country, except it wasn't. The hardest part for me was seeing symbols of Christianity – like crosses, used as part of the riot. I was angry, I was hurting, I made a point to publicly condemn the violent actions as a faith leader in my community.In the year since I have watched as Republican leaders around this country work not only to strategically dismantle voting rights, but also bully, intimidate, and harass local election workers – and in some places take over the administration of these professional and non-partisan offices. I wonder often, what will elections look like in this country this fall.And as I think about that, I wonder – what would I do if I thought the election had been stolen? If I saw evidence and heard from trusted leaders that indeed, the wrong person was declared the winner. What would my anger cause me to do?This fall I watched the HBO documentary – Four Hours at the Capitol. Watching the footage and hearing the first-hand accounts of the fear, of people calling loved ones to say goodbye, of officers being dragged into crowds and beaten…it just didn't feel real. And yet it was – we lived it. And we are still living the consequences.When it comes to our American system of government, I am very scared that we are losing our democracy. As a pastor and as student of history, I know empires rise and empires fall. And as someone called to participate in the kindom of God, which is antithetical to everything empire, I want this one I live in to crumble. Despite the myths we share and perpetuate, this nation was built on stolen land by enslaved peoples – so maybe it does need to die so something new and better can rise in its place. But I'm afraid for my own family, my own way of life, and particularly afraid for the poor and marginalized should American democracy come crashing down. So I constantly live in the tension of fear and trust.Like the writer in Ecclesiastes says, there is a time to kill and a time to heal. A time to tear down and a time to build. What time are we in?NOTES (MARISA Wandeler):My voice is sacred and it's tied to how I feel about Jan 6th. Most of my traumatic story centers around not having a voice to advocate for myself or be seen by people who were supposed to love and treasure me. My healing journey has been about empowering my voice. So my literal voice just doesn't want to give Jan 6th the pleasure of my voice or any kind of rebuttal.The whole event was essentially about shutting down the voices of people like me and anyone who doesn't elevate white supremacy. I'm not welcome at that table and never will be simply because of the color of skin and my ancestry.Jan 6th wasn't a new thing to feel, it was just a public display of what I already know, feel, and live with every day.How did I feel on that day?Simply, the same. Of course. I felt the same as I do any day—- deeply disappointed. Thank you from Danielle for Rebecca Wheeler Walston, Jimmy McGee, Impact, Sam Lee, Linda Royster, Dan Allender, Kali Jensen, so many more - Kristi Repp - Maggie, my kids, my husband. Thank you.