Podcast appearances and mentions of david kinnaman

1 Corinthians 1:17-25NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER SLIDE***Corporate Cry: “God we need you to move in our midst to see people AWAKEN WITH HOPE, LIVE IN GRACE, and REST ON FAITH.”GOD DELUSION30 “‘No, father Abraham,' he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'”Luke 16:30-3116 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:1615 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect…1 Peter 3:1522 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:17-2516 For I am not ashamed of the gospel…Romans 1:16“ISN'T RELIGION OUTDATED?”“Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that; I'm right and will be proved right. We're [the Beatles] more popular than Jesus now—I don't know which will go first, rock and roll or Christianity.”John LennonPride goes before destruction,    and a haughty spirit before a fall.Proverbs 16:18For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.1 Timothy4:3-4THE “GOSPEL” OF TECHNOLOGYTHE “GOSPEL” OF SCIENCEOne day, students in one of Albert Einstein's classes were saying they had decided that there was no God. Einstein asked them, how much of all the knowledge in the world they had amongst themselves collectively, as a class. The students discussed it for a while and decided they had 5% of all human knowledge amongst themselves. Einstein thought that their estimate was a little generous, but he replied: “Is it possible that God exists in the 95% that you don't know?”THE “GOSPEL” OF PERSONAL FREEDOM21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.Romans 1:21-23THE TRUTH IS WE ARE NOT GETTING BETTER OVER TIMEThe record of personal achievements and spiritual milestones he attained while still in his childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood is int itself remarkable. He began devouring Puritan classics at the age of five or six years old. He was strikingly converted when he was only fifteen, began to preach regularly when he was sixteen, and took his first pastorate in a country village at just seventeen. He received a call to pastor perhaps the most prominent Baptist church in London when only nineteen years old, and by the time he reached the age of twenty, he had already preached over 600 sermons. The first biography of Suprgeon, written by an American, appeared when he was only twenty-one years old. By his mid twenties, he was pastoring the largeset church in the entire protestant world. Alex DiPrimaTHE TRUTH IS BELIEF IN GOD IS GROWING; NOT DECLININGBarna's latest study shows that 66% of U.S. adults now say they have made a personal commitment to Jesus that is still important in their life today. That marks a 12-point increase since 2021, when the number reached its lowest level in more than 30 years of Barna tracking.“Undeniably, there is renewed interest in Jesus,” said David Kinnaman, CEO of Barna. “This is the clearest trend we've seen in more than a decade pointing to spiritual renewal.”The growth has been especially concentrated among Gen Z and millennials. Gen Z men reported a 15-point increase in personal commitment to Jesus between 2019 and 2025. Millennial men reported a 19-point increase over the same period.Barna Research GroupWHY?THREE THINGS THAT WILL NEVER GO AWAY OVER TIME:JESUS' IMPACT ON THE EARTHOUR LONGING FOR MORE10 I have seen the business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:10-11OUR NEED FOR A PERFECT SACRIFICE11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ[b] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.Hebrews 10:11-14

In today's message, Pastor Aaron McRae unpacks one of the most misunderstood teachings of Jesus: “Do not judge.” As part of our journey through the Sermon on the Mount, we explore what true judgment looks like — discerning without condemning, examining our own hearts before pointing at others, and living out Jesus' call to love.We discuss the danger of a judgmental spirit, the difference between discernment and condemnation, and how to follow the Golden Rule in a world quick to criticize. Ultimately, we are reminded that judgment belongs to God alone, and we are called to walk in humility, love, and truth.Key Scriptures: Matthew 7:1–6, Matthew 7:12, Romans 13:8-10, Psalm 139:23 References: Bible Project, "UnChristian" by David Kinnaman, teachings by Jonathan Pennington, Scot McKnight, and Billy Graham.Join us as we seek to love others as Christ has loved us — with grace, discernment, and hope.#SermonOnTheMount #DoNotJudge #LoveFirst #JesusTeaching #GoldenRuleFor the full gathering of this message which includes worship, visit our Youtube channel. Stay Connected With Hillside Community Church.Youtube | https://www.youtube.com/c/HillsideCommunityChurchInstagram | https://www.instagram.com/hillsidechurches/Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/hillsidechurchesWebsite | https://hillsidechurches.com

Today's HeadlinesChina formally bans foreign missionary activityResurrection Sunday means victory in life or death“Spiritual spring” creates Gospel opportunities

Episode Overview:Welcome back to Ryan and Brian's Bible Bistro, where hosts Ryan and Brian dive into the Bible, theology, and all things pertaining to the Christian faith. Recorded during Holy Week, this episode explores the story of Malchus, the servant of the high priest, and discusses encouraging trends in Christian faith globally. From historical insights to modern revivals, Ryan and Brian cover it all with their signature wit and wisdom.Timestamps & Topics:[00:00 - 03:30] Introduction and BanterRyan and Brian kick off with playful banter about Brian's “conversion” to the word “pertaining.”Setting the scene: It's Holy Week, recorded the day after Palm Sunday, with Easter approaching.[03:30 - 06:00] Holy Week ContextBrian shares his busy schedule as a pastor, preparing for a unique Maundy Thursday service and Easter celebrations.The episode will cover two main topics: a biblical reflection for Holy Week and a discussion on current trends in Christianity.[06:00 - 28:00] The Story of MalchusFocus on Malchus, the servant of the high priest, whose ear is cut off during Jesus' arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane.Examination of the account across all four Gospels:Mark 14:47: An unnamed person cuts off the servant's ear; Jesus rebukes the action (Mark 14:48).Matthew 26:50-51: Similar account, with Jesus saying, “All who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52).Luke 22:49-51: Adds that Jesus heals the servant's ear, still unnamed.John 18:10-11: Names the servant as Malchus and the disciple as Simon Peter; Jesus commands Peter to put away his sword.Discussion on why details differ:Traditional view: Later Gospels add details for verisimilitude.N.T. Wright's perspective: Gospel writers interacted, emphasizing different aspects.Scholarly insights from Richard Bauckham's book (Jesus and the Eyewitnesses):Anonymity in earlier Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke) may have protected early Christians, like Malchus, from persecution.Naming in John could indicate safety or recognition of Malchus as a believer.Theories suggest Malchus became a Christian after Jesus healed him, supported by early church traditions.Criteria for authenticity:Multiple attestation (all four Gospels include the story).Criterion of embarrassment (Peter's rebuke reflects poorly on him, suggesting authenticity).Connection to Holy Week: Jesus' call to avoid violence and embrace a “cruciform life” of sacrifice.[28:00 - 50:00] Resurgence of Christian FaithThree encouraging studies highlight a revival in Christianity:UK Bible Society Report (The Quiet Revival):Interview with Dr. Rhiannon McAleer, Director of Research.Church attendance in England and Wales has grown, especially among Gen Z.Stats: Young men's attendance up from 4% to 21% (2018–present), young women from 3% to 12%.Quote from Dr. Rob Barward-Simmons: Church offers meaning amidst mental health struggles, loneliness, and loss of purpose.Barna Group Study (US):66% of U.S. adults report a personal commitment to Jesus, up 12% since 2021.Gen Z men show a 15% increase in commitment (2019–2025).David Kinnaman's Faith for Exiles: “This is the clearest trend we've seen in more than a decade pointing to spiritual renewal.”Ryan Burge notes a plateau and slight decline in “nones” (religiously unaffiliated).Voice of the Martyrs Report...

Mark Clark talks about the difference between preaching to a pre-Christian and post-Christian culture and how to do both effectively so that you can reach people and grow your church. Plus, Mark and Carey discuss how to leverage your unique gifting and quirks. Mark shares how he's learned to preach and lead with Tourettes Syndrome and OCD. And he discusses how to solve the problem of life for an anxious generation.

Christian Apologist Wesley Huff recently debated Billy Carson, which led to an appearance on the Joe Rogan Show. In both cases, Wes demonstrated a powerful approach to apologetics. In this episode, Carey outlines four best practices Wes embodied and offers five takeaways for every leader looking to engage the culture in conversations about Christianity.

Only 1% of pastors say their churches are very effective at evangelism. Yet, 72% of people say they are open spiritually. In this episode, Barna CEO David Kinnaman and author Mark Matlock continue the 2025 Church Trends series and discuss the current divide between church and culture, the surprisingly dismal state of evangelism in the church today, and the missed opportunity of unchurched people's surprising spiritual openness.

Get notes on this podcast here:  https://churchleaders.com/podcast/502143-david-kinnaman-pastors-skill-set-preaching.html Barna CEO David Kinnaman joins “The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast” to share what the research shows about how pastors are doing and how they can most effectively disciple their people. Nona Jones joined us last week to share what God has taught her about rejection and how she came to see it, not as an enemy, but as a gift. Check out our conversation with her here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/501752-nona-jones-rejection-gift-god.html    ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X: https://x.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ “Faith for Exiles: 5 Ways for a New Generation to Follow Jesus in Digital Babylon” by David Kinnaman Barna Group State of the Church State of Pastors Summit RightNow Conference "Ex-Christians Aren't the Only Ones Deconstructing Faith" by Barna Group

All this week we've been looking at David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock's book Faith for Exiles, and the five ministry practices churches and families must pursue to lead kids into life-long faith. The research done by Kinnaman and Matlock indicates that in order to form a lasting faith, we must curb the cultural tendency toward entitlement and self-centeredness by getting our kids engaged in counter-cultural mission. This does not mean that we need to be sure they get involved in a missions trip once or twice a year. Sure, those experiences can be valuable for our kids. But engaging in countercultural mission means living as a faithful presence wherever we are, by trusting God's power and living differently from cultural norms. This means that we bloom for God as His ambassador wherever we are planted. We need to teach our kids to play to his glory, study to his glory, conduct themselves in relationships to his glory, and live every moment to his glory. Let's pray that our kids grow to embrace and live the faith!

All this week we're looking at David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock's book Faith for Exiles, and the five ministry practices churches and families must pursue to lead kids into life-long faith. The research done by Kinnaman and Matlock indicates that in order to form a lasting faith, we must ground and motivate our kids through training for vocational discipleship. This means that they know and live out God's calling on their lives, especially in the arena of work while conforming their ambitions to God's purposes. In today's world, the culture teaches our kids to pursue work and vocation as a passport to privilege. Rather than seeing work as a way to serve God and further His kingdom, our work is about making money, pursuing fame, and building up the kingdom of me, myself, and I. One of the key opportunities facing the twenty-first-century church is to help kids learn that they have been made for something, and that something is a life where faith is integrated into their work.

All this week we're looking at David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock's book Faith for Exiles, and the five ministry practices churches and families must pursue to lead kids into life-long faith. The research done by Kinnaman and Matlock indicates that in order to form a lasting faith, we must work to create a church and family culture where rather than separating the generations, meaningful intergenerational relationships are formed with fellow believers who live and model a deep faith in Jesus Christ. Our culture is marked by isolation and mistrust between different generations. Some specific ways to make this happen include starting a mentoring program at your church where an older believer is paired with a young person. Our worship services should be inter-generational rather than generationally-segmented. And our homes should be places where our kids are exposed to older Christians as we practice hospitality. Endeavor to give your kids the gift of sitting under the wisdom of those who are older.

All this week we're looking at David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock's book Faith for Exiles, and the five ministry practices churches and families must pursue to lead kids into life-long faith. The research done by Kinnaman and Matlock indicates that in order to form a lasting faith, we must lead our kids into developing the muscles of cultural discernment. Exercising cultural discernment means that we all must take part in a robust learning community that seeks, under the authority of the Bible, to wisely navigate today's rapidly changing culture. This means that we must develop their ability to compare the beliefs, values, customs, and creations of the world we live in with those of the world we belong to, which is the Kingdom of God. And once that comparison has been made, we need to anchor our lives to the theological, ethical, and moral norms of God's Kingdom. Parents, in order to lead your kids into living counter-culturally to the glory of God, you must be doing the same.

With so many of our young adults graduating from high school and walking away from the faith, what can we do to lead them to embrace a lasting faith? All this week we're going to look at David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock's book Faith for Exiles, and the five ministry practices churches and families must pursue to lead kids into life-long faith. The research done by Kinnaman and Matlock indicates that in order to form a lasting faith, we must lead our kids into experiencing intimacy with Jesus. This is best done by clearing what they call the religious clutter that so easily sidetracks us. We've been complicit in presenting a Jesus to compete at the same level as our other affinities and affiliations. In addition we've expected way too little from our kids. They are more willing to be challenged than the church is willing to challenge them. And, parents must be living a life of spiritual vitality where they give everything they have and are over to Jesus. Let's lead our kids into a deep and lasting faith.

Can your vote actually make a difference? Can we take part in presencing the Kingdom of God on earth...even in politics? This episode of Found (the fourth in the "Faith in Politics" series) examines the Societal Transformation view, a powerful approach to civic engagement for Jesus-followers. Hosts Linda Tokar and Brandon Bathauer explore unpack how some Christians view their faith as a driving force to actively shape the world around them. We'll explore these questions as we examine the biblical basis, historical figures, and real-world applications of this approach.Get ready to wrestle with the challenges and the potential of societal transformation. We'll uncover the strengths of actively engaging our faith with culture and politics, while also acknowledging the potential pitfalls of this approach. We'll discuss how to balance our desire for social reform with the need for personal spiritual transformation. Prepare for thought-provoking insights and practical examples that will equip you to engage with this election season (and beyond) in a way that is both faithful and effective.Areas of Deeper Study"Sphere Sovereignty": Concept developed by Abraham Kuyper"Inaugurated Eschatology": Theological view of God's Kingdom as already present but not yet fully realized.Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Lutheran pastor and theologian known for his resistance to the Nazi regime. Pick up one of many great biographies on his life, including the accessible Eric Metaxas biography.William Wilberforce: British politician who played a key role in abolishing the slave trade. "Amazing Grace" is a helpful film to get a glimpse of his life.Books MentionedEthics by Dietrich BonhoefferUnChristian and Good Faith with Gabe Lyons and David Kinnaman

David Kinnaman, CEO of Barna Group, joins the podcast today to help kick off an 8-part deep dive into the new data on pornography use, its impact on relationships, mental health, and the Church. Together, with Nick Stumbo and Ashley Jameson, they explore how this research can guide the Church in addressing sexual brokenness and provide real hope for healing.This eight episode deep dive into Beyond the Porn Phenomenon features the voices of people prominently featured in the report.Resources:Order 'Beyond The Porn Phenomenon'Barna Website GET STARTEDFree eBook: 7 Keys To Understanding Betrayal TraumaFree eBook: 5 Steps to Freedom From PornSchedule Your Free 15-Minute Counseling ConsultationJoin A Pure Desire Online Group SOCIALSFollow us on FacebookFollow us on InstagramFollow us on X (Twitter)

Mark Matlock is Senior Fellow at Barna and a facilitator of innovation and impact. As the founder of WisdomWorks, he has been a consultant for many national and international faith-based organizations, helping them adapt to changing times by turning data and research into strategy and action. Having guided many projects with Barna, Mark's research provides insights into understanding younger generations, cultivating resilient disciples, and knowing the pulse of your city. Mark most recently coauthored Faith for Exiles with David Kinnaman and is currently the Executive Director of Urbana for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship.  We hope you enjoy this conversation with former president of Youth Specialties Mark Matlock. Mark's Book: Faith for the Curious: How an Era of Spiritual Openness Shapes the Way We Live and Help Others Follow JesusMark's Website: https://markmatlock.com/ We'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line. Doug – Douglas@bendingbranches.org Bob – bob@kairospartnerships.org **Monday Morning Pastor is produced by the incredibly gifted Joel Limbauan. Check out his great video and podcast work at On a Limb Productions www.onalimbproductions.com If this podcast adds value to you, your team, or your organization, consider (1) subscribing (2) leaving a review and (3) sharing it with others 

For too long, the life of faith has been seen as a weakness in the business world when it's actually our greatest strength. Join the “Faith Driven Entrepreneur Conference” and hear talks from innovative leaders like Lecrae, Derwin Grey, David Platt, and David Kinnaman, plus... The post Daniel Higby appeared first on ABQ Connect.

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Are you aware of your constitutional rights when it comes to exercising your faith? In this episode, Kristen Waggoner, the CEO, President and General Counsel of Alliance Defending Freedom, tells us about her work to protect fundamental freedoms and promote the inherent dignity of people all over the world. Currently, Kristen and her team have two cases pending at the U.S. Supreme Court protecting life, women's health, and addressing regulatory overreach by the current administration. Listen in as Kristen helps us understand our inerrant rights, especially when it comes to our parental rights and the complicated layers of the accelerating issue of transgenderism. Resources: Free Parents' Toolkit on Critical Theory from Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) Create a free THINQ Account to access more trusted content like this on topics from all channels of culture at thinqmedia.com. More LGBTQ content from THINQ. Register for Next Gen Summit, November 8-9, 2024 in Nashville. unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity…and Why It Matters, Gabe Lyons and David Kinnaman.

“I'm kind of a genius.” James 1:19-22  //  My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. Most Christians are hypocrites. “84% of non-Christians say they know a Christian personally, yet only 15% say the lifestyles of those believers are noticeably different in a good way.” - David Kinnaman 900 Which one is best? The one you obey. Teleios - Mature, Perfected, Complete James 2:14-17  //  What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. The Bible knows nothing of a fruitless faith. Faith & Works FAITH: Belief in action Abel brought an offering Noah built an ark Abraham left his home and offered up Isaac Sarah trusted God Jacob blessed his grandsons Joseph instructed about his burial Moses chose to be mistreated Rahab welcomed the spies WORKS: Literally deeds 3 TYPES OF FAITH: 1. Dead Faith James 2:15-17  //  Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 2. Demon Faith 
James 2:18-19  //  But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 3. Dynamic Faith James 2:20-26  //  You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

In this week's conversation between Dr. James Emery White and co-host Alexis Drye, they discuss how in the U.S., people are still somewhat “turned on” to God (and specifically to Jesus) but very turned off to religion, pastors and even just your average self-identified Christian. They're saying, “Maybe” to Christ, but, “Absolutely not” to Christianity and Christians. And when you see what's happening in culture, it's not difficult to understand why. Because the Christian faith is often perceived as anything but Christlike, we, as the Church, need to have an answer. Episode Links If you've been tracking with the Church & Culture Podcast, several of our earlier episodes shine a glaring light on the reasons many draw their conclusions about the Christian faith. CCP94: On the Growing Lack of Confidence in Clergy discussed how American culture at large is losing trust in Christian pastors. CCP96: On “He Gets Us” examined the popularity of an ad campaign focusing on the love and compassion of Jesus that is sparking anger in some Christians. CCP32: On a Non-Christian America tackled the continued rise of the “nones” – those who refuse to identify with any particular religion, but who aren't opposed to believing in God. And finally CCP4: On Pastors and Moral Failings took a hard look at the many high-profile religious leaders who have been in the news recently for immoral and sometimes illegal acts. Grace was a theme woven throughout this discussion as it's what's so often missing from those unChristian Christians. Dr. White has given two series at Mecklenburg Community Church on grace: Christianity's Most Scandalous Idea and Getting Grace Right. And another series that we would recommend you listen to is The Deconstruction Zone which explored how many in our day are deconstructing their faith, raising questions, and exploring challenges to how they were raised or beliefs they have long held. Finally, Dr. White mentioned a couple of books related to today's conversation that you may be interested in checking out: Grace Awakening written by Chuck Swindoll and unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity…and Why It Matters written by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. For those of you who are new to Church & Culture, we'd love to invite you to subscribe (for free of course) to the twice-weekly Church & Culture blog and check out the Daily Headline News - a collection of headlines from around the globe each weekday. We'd also love to hear from you if there is a topic that you'd like to see discussed on the Church & Culture Podcast in an upcoming episode. You can find the form to submit your questions at the bottom of the podcast page HERE.

Entrepreneur: what is your relationship like with your church?(We really want to know!)Church leaders and entrepreneurs have the potential to be radical partners who influence and impact communities for the glory of God together.But often, we find a strange divide between these two groups that interferes with the good work they could be doing together.That's why in this week's podcast episode Justin Forman and Barna Group's David Kinnaman will be talking about ways the church can become better partners. They'll also talk about an exciting research project underway between these two organizations.This is part of a new segment we call the “riff” where we invite listeners into the ideas and conversations we're having, so please leave your thoughts in the comments or send them to podcast@faithdrivenentrepreneur.org.

In Part 2 of the Church Trends series, David Kinnaman shares the very latest from Barna on a surprising spiritual openness that's growing in America while more people than ever are deconstructing their faith. David discusses how to navigate that tension and reach more people. Plus, he explores research that shows that reaching women may be the key to reaching and keeping families. Show Notes Free 2024 Church Trends Team Guide On The Rise Newsletter Preaching Cheat Sheet Watch on YouTube Follow @careynieuwhof Follow @theartofleadershipnetwork   This episode is sponsored by:  WESTFALL GOLD What if generosity was part of the DNA of your church? I partnered with Westfall Gold and leaders like Craig Groeschel and Chris Hodges to create Advance, a master class video series to help pastors and church leaders grow the courage and skill to unleash generosity.    RETHINK LEADERSHIP Senior leaders and executive pastors, join us this April at ReThink Leadership Conference. Connect with peers, learn from shared challenges, and gain an actionable plan for a healthier ministry.    Brought to you by The Art of Leadership Network

David Kinnaman (CEO, Barna Group) joins Glenn Packiam, Rich Villodas and Sharon Hodde Miller to explore current trends in spiritual openness, the factors that contribute to people distancing themselves from the Church and how understanding people's spiritual backstories can be a gateway for meaningful faith conversations.Sign up for the Resilient Pastor cohort. Learn about The Intentional Year by Holly and Glenn Packiam.Partner LinksWorld Vision: Visit WorldVision.org/Barna2024 to access the Resilient Pastor video series. Brotherhood Mutual: Learn more about the services that Brotherhood Mutual offers at BrotherhoodMutual.com.Watch this episode on Youtube: Barna GroupWant to learn more about the Resilient Pastor initiative? Home PagePodcastCity RoundtablesCohort

2024 will be a pivotal year for most church leaders, and it will probably be a pivotal year for your church. The dust has settled from the Great Resignation (it's not even a thing anymore). If you made it through the last few years as a church leader, you're probably in for quite a few more years to come. So, after years of chaos and heartache for many church leaders, it's a time to look to the future. And that's what we'll be doing here on the podcast in January. The following 5 episodes will focus on trends in churchgoer attendance, discipleship, technology, a new kind of megachurch pastor, and more. Each January, I write a highly anticipated blog post discussing church trends to watch. This year, for the first time ever, we're bringing that blog post to the podcast in a round table discussion with myself, JP Pokluda, and Brie McCullough of Harris Creek Baptist. We've even made a free team guide that you'll be able to access so you can continue the discussion with your staff and volunteer teams. The series will also feature conversations from, David Kinnaman, Ryan Burge, Brady Shearer, and John Mark Comer. ____ If the podcast was helpful to you in 2023, would you consider leaving a rating and review? Highly Productive Leader Challenge On The Rise Newsletter Preaching Cheat Sheet Watch on YouTube Follow @careynieuwhof Follow @theartofleadershipnetwork   Brought to you by The Art of Leadership Network

Get notes on this podcast here:  https://churchleaders.com/podcast/462664-natalie-runion-pastors-can-avoid-quitting-god-called.html Natalie Runion joins “The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast” to discuss what it looks like for church leaders to fight to remain in ministry when it would be easier to quit—and when it's time to walk away. What does the data tell us about the state of Christianity in the U.S.? Greg Smith from Pew Research Center, David Kinnaman from Barna Group, Scott McConnell from Lifeway Research, and Frank Newport from Gallup joined us last week to discuss exactly that. Check out our conversation with them here:  https://churchleaders.com/podcast/462136-faithlytics-pew-barna-lifeway-gallup-american-christianity.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ “Raised to Stay: Persevering in Ministry When You Have a Million Reasons to Walk Away” by Natalie Runion Check out Natalie's website Follow Natalie on Facebook, Instagram and X/Twitter

Get notes on this podcast here:  https://churchleaders.com/podcast/462136-faithlytics-pew-barna-lifeway-gallup-american-christianity.html Greg Smith from Pew Research Center, David Kinnaman from Barna Group, Scott McConnell from Lifeway Research, and Frank Newport from Gallup join “The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast” for a special “Faithlytics” episode on what the data says about the state of Christianity in the U.S. Do you regularly pray for your pastor? Dr. Thom Rainer joined us last week to share why it is important that Christians pray for their leaders and to encourage church leaders to ask their congregations for prayer. Check out our conversation with him here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/461704-thom-rainer-pastors-ask-prayer.html    ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/   Faithlytics Barna Group Gallup Lifeway Research Pew Research Center Follow Greg Smith on X/Twitter Follow David Kinnaman on Facebook and X/Twitter Follow Scott McConnell on X/Twitter Follow Frank Newport on X/Twitter

Guest Bios Show Transcript How can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? In this podcast, theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer, join me to discuss their latest book, Pivot, a sequel to their earlier best-selling book, A Church Called Tov. While their first book explained the characteristics of a “tov,” or good, culture, Pivot tackles the next challenge—transforming ingrained toxic cultures into tov ones. As Scot and Laura discuss, transformation can be a grueling and painful process. And their research shows transformation takes an average of seven years! But it is possible. And cultures led by narcissist leaders that create consumers can transform into ones led by servant-leaders that make disciples.  In their characteristic relatable and warm style, Scot and Laura explain the practical steps required to do that. Specifically, they discuss the priorities, practices, and powers necessary to pivot, or transform, toxic cultures. And they give real-life examples of churches that have undergone this transformation and lived to tell about it! Scot and Laura draw from their own experiences in churches, conversations with leaders seeing transformation happen, and a deep well of research to provide actionable insights for churches and ministries. Guests Scot McKnight Scot McKnight is a professor of New Testament and has been teaching for more than four decades. His specialty is in the fields of Gospels and Jesus studies, but his passions are in the intersection of New Testament in its context as it speaks to the church today. Along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, they have published A Church Called Tov and a follow-up book, Pivot, which discusses what churches can do to help transform themselves from toxic cultures into tov (goodness) cultures. Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript SPEAKERS SCOT McKNIGHT, LAURA BARRINGER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:00 So how can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And joining me today are theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer. They're the authors of the bestselling book A Church Called TOV. TOV is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. And the book explained how to create a church culture that's truly good–one that resists abuse promotes healing and spiritual growth. But what if your church or Christian workplace already has an ingrained toxic culture? Well, that's what Scot and Laura's new book PIVOT is all about. It explains the priorities, practices and powers that can help you pivot or transform your toxic culture into a TOV culture. But it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but it is God honoring and it is possible. So I'm very excited to delve into this topic was gotten Laura But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JudsonU.edu. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com.  Well again, joining me is New Testament scholar Scot McKnight, who has authored more than 50 books. He's currently professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. And he's an ordained Anglican and maintains a blog with Christianity today called Jesus Creed. So Scott, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you join me. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:25 Thanks, Julie. Good to be with you again. JULIE ROYS  02:27 Yeah, second time. So I always like when I have a repeat guest. It means it must have gone okay the first time. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:33 I used to be with you sometimes on the radio, in the old days. JULIE ROYS  02:37 On Moody. Yeah. Yes, old days. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be fun. I love the book. And Laura, thank you also for joining me again, Scot's daughter Laura Barringer, who's co authored Scott's last two books, A Church Called TOV and PIVOT. Laura also is a children's ministry curriculum writer for Grow Kids. And her day job is teaching kindergarteners in suburban Chicago and Laura, I know you've had a full day teaching them today. So thank you so much for for joining us and for being willing to come on. LAURA BARRINGER  03:09 Yeah, thank you for having me again. It's nice to be with you guys. JULIE ROYS  03:13 And you were just with us at RESTORE, and did a phenomenal job. And we've been rolling out the videos on that and yours will be rolling out in the next few weeks. But that was just delightful to have you. So thank you for joining us at that. LAURA BARRINGER  03:27 I had a great time. It was such an honor to speak at the event and meet so many of the people that I've interacted with online over the last few times. I was just blown away by how special. I was anticipating it. But I was blown away by how special that was to see actual faces. And I came away just realizing this is so much more. It's not just a conference. It's so much more than that. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:51 That's what we experienced the year before. LAURA BARRINGER  03:53 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:54 Same thing like these are the people. LAURA BARRINGER  03:56 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:56 These are the people. Yeah, that's good. JULIE ROYS  03:58 Yeah, I think you called it a restorative community. LAURA BARRINGER  03:58 That's what it is. JULIE ROYS  04:00 I love that. I was like, yes, that's exactly what RESTORE is. And Scot, you joined us last year for the RESTORE conference. And your video is up on our YouTube site as well. And I believe it was on How To Be TOV, Not Toxic. So a lot of that stuff that we're talking about today, although today, we're talking more about your second book, which is kind of making that pivot when you realize you already are toxic, right? And you've got this culture ingrained that's not so good. And Laura, I loved in the book where you said, at one point you're like, I teach kindergarteners and now I'm doing all these interviews on how to make a church culture TOV and how to make it good and you're like, how did I get here? And then a pastor said to you, “you know what you nurture little people all day you children all day long, and that skill, even though it's often not valued by pastors is probably more appropriate than a lot of them realize.” And I just I love that. And I'm sure you're finding that as you're speaking to people. LAURA BARRINGER  05:05 Yeah, that was very meaningful interview that was Jared McKenna. He has a podcast that he had invited me on. And for whatever reason, my dad wasn't there. I don't know, usually, they want my dad, and then I tag along. And so initially, those interviews could feel really uncomfortable, because every now and then I would stop and think, do these people, you know, they'd asked me about, like, the church abuse crisis. And I'd think, “do these people not realize that I was making kindergarten ready for school confetti earlier today?” How have I landed in this spot? But that was a very encouraging conversation for me when Jared said, you know, you have some of the qualities as a teacher that we want to see in our pastors. And I stopped, I thought, I suppose that's what we do all day long as teachers we nurture and encourage and shepherd. So yeah, that meant a lot to me, as you read in the book, JULIE ROYS  06:05 And Scott, you teach at a seminary, but a lot of seminaries aren't teaching about this kind of stuff. Like you're you learn a lot of Bible knowledge. But as far as how to create cultures and how to nurture goodness within churches? I mean, are we teaching this in enough seminaries? Or are we maybe a little heavy on the head knowledge and not enough on the cultivating of the heart? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:30 The answer to that is no. There are really no seminaries that are focused on spiritual formation or character development, LAURA BARRINGER  06:41 Really? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:42 None. The curriculum for all the courses is Bible theology, church history, and skill development. And skill development is what is measured, as a general rule for what constitutes a good pastor. In other words, they can preach they can lead, you know, we talked about leadership, I don't, but the evangelical world does. And we read books and from the business world, and we read, what is it, Jack Welch? We read all these people. And these are the people that are formational, for people's perception of what is success, and what constitutes a pastor. One of the curricular changes that took place in seminaries about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, was to bring spiritual formation into every class, rather than located in one class, a class on spiritual formation. And so we do it that way. But Julie, I think character formation for church leaders, is caught more than taught, it's embodied more than it's instructed. And it requires time with someone who has that kind of character. So if you can be an assistant, in a church with Mr. Rogers, for five years, you'll never be the same. If you are in a church with, we won't name any names don't need to in this context, for five years, you will be harmed in character formation. JULIE ROYS  08:12 And that's what's so sad is that so much of my reporting is on churches where that's happening, where you have pastors who can preach the Bible, and can teach it–sometimes with really good doctrine–and yet, the life does not match the teaching. And so that is so much of the problem. So I'm so glad that you that both of you have done these two books, which go hand in hand, and I loved your first book, A Church Called TOV, and I love this book PIVOT, because it's, it really is sort of the sequel, and I think helps an awful lot. And we've been using this phrase church culture. Scott, let me just start there. What is a church culture? Because this is something we often don't think about yet we often swim in it, and we're shaped by it. But what is it exactly? And how is it formed? SCOT McKNIGHT  09:00 A culture is a living agent that conforms people, whether they understand it, or not, unconsciously, unintentionally, to become people who fit in that culture. Now, that's the impact understanding, but culture is a living agent. That is the result of people decisions, policies, over time, that result in a given set of assumptions that are mostly invisible, that shape what's going on in a given institution, or church, whatever, without even being aware of it. That's the culture. JULIE ROYS  09:44 And so often what we see I know when I report on a church or a leader, and in several circumstances that's led to the leader being removed, and then they bring in a new leader, and you think, oh, everything's different now. SCOT McKNIGHT  09:58 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  09:59 But it's really not. Right? Because  Nothing. You've got a culture that's ingrained, you have people that have been formed by this culture. And they don't know any different than how to run a toxic church, because that's how they've been discipled. That's the culture that they're familiar with. So you use this metaphor in your book of a peach tree, to help us understand culture. So Laura, let me throw that to you. What is this peach tree metaphor? And how does it apply to helping us understand the church? SCOT McKNIGHT  10:01 Nothing, LAURA BARRINGER  10:30 So the peach tree metaphor, it's, it is a cute, if you will metaphor, but it actually is research based and we based it on the research of Edgar Schein, he's one of the, to my knowledge, most important researchers on organizational culture. And also to our knowledge, we were not able to find research or books on church culture or Christian organization culture. So we took what we learned from him and adapted it and made our model a peach tree, mostly because I have a peach tree in my backyard. Mark, and I planted it when we moved in our home about 10 years ago. And it ended up being perfect for this metaphor, because it's very unhealthy. We've never even eaten one peach off the tree. So like, Oh, that's perfect, because it was a very small because I called her tree. But at any rate, so we talked about peaches as the visible elements of your culture. And it's what people see and experience when they walk in the door. So they might feel like, Oh, those graders were friendly, or who's singing on stage or, when the Anglican tradition, they pass the peace, that's part of the culture. And when they leave, they can probably explain what they felt, what they saw. So what we have learned, and again, this is research based, is that what is underneath the soil is what feeds the living elements of the tree. And most of that is like what my dad was saying that you can't see it, you don't even know it's there. And like our peach tree in our backyard, the fact that it's not growing peaches is not the problem. The problem is that is probably the soil or that we're not caring for the tree, we're supposed to add nutrients every year–we never do. So that's how we develop the model is that the soil and what's underneath the soil, what goes into the roots is what feeds the culture of your organization. And so you really need to look at, we learned, is “what's feeding the soil?” If the tree is being fed by the fruits of the Spirit are by spiritual formation practices, the culture is likely healthy and thriving. If it's being fed by ambition, or power abuse, then the culture is going to be toxic. And so you might get some healthy, like looking peaches, but underneath that's very sick. SCOT McKNIGHT  13:04 This is a good question. And Laura's got a good answer there. But I was in a conversation the other day was a seminary professor who talked about the last three presidents of that institution. And the seminary professor said they were all narcissists. And I said, I think we have to look at why narcissists rose to the top in that organization. There's a culture that gives rise to “that's the kind of person that seems to fit the job description.” Why is that the case? JULIE ROYS  13:39 And that is an important point to make. Because I think so often we do point at the narcissist, and oh, this horrible person that was there and did such horrible things. And we don't look at what's our responsibility for putting that person in and for following that person for not noticing the characteristics that we should have. And you've named some of the toxins that go into these soils of these toxic churches. You give, and I love this because you don't hear the stories very often. And I'd love to report on a lot more of them. I wish there were a lot to report on. But it's of a church that discovers that it's toxic, and goes through this transformation process. And one of them that you talked about is is Oak Hills church in Folsom, California. Explain why Oak Hills felt like it had to transform and then how it began to do so. LAURA BARRINGER  14:33 Yeah, this is one of my favorite parts of our work on PIVOT, I think. I had never heard of Oak Hills. Just one day a book arrived on my doorstep, sent by Scot McKnight. And he said you need to read about this, and then write about it as a case study for PIVOT. It's such a beautiful story, but essentially, the pastors Mike Lueken and Ken Carlson founded a church in California called Oak Hills. And they had come out here to Willow Creek to learn as much as they could about doing church. And they don't criticize Willow at all. They said, in fact, everything that we tried worked. Their attendance exploded, they became a mega church. But they started to feel I would describe it just like an unease like in their soul. And they felt like the exact quote is so striking. It says, “the way that we were doing church was actually working against the invitation of Christ to experience his transformation.” And they had been reading Eugene Peterson, and Dallas Willard and more. And they felt like our attractional model is working against transformation. And so they took the whole church through a very tumultuous process. Their attendance declined, like it was cut in half or more. But they ended up transforming their church from an attractional model to a spiritual formation model. They said the people in the church had become consumers. So like, they would sit there and want a really good show. And then the next week, they would come back and they wanted an even better show. And they said, it felt like we were feeding a monster, and they were drained. They were worn out. And they just felt that stirring in the spirit that they had to transform it. JULIE ROYS  16:28 Yeah, somebody asked me once, whether I thought a mega church could ever be healthy. And my answer was, perhaps, but it just seems to me that all the pressures are in the wrong direction. And it's awful hard to withstand the pressures that keep pushing you in that direction. And I'm curious, Scot, have you ever seen a mega church that, really, you're seeing a real emphasis on spiritual formation? And it seems really healthy? SCOT McKNIGHT  16:59 This is a really interesting question because it feeds into what we researched in this book. And Edgar Schein, I've seen a lot of them, because I've only been there for a day or two. Okay, so this is what they are masters of, is the weekend service is extremely impressive and they have talented, charismatic, winsome, affable people that welcome you at the airport, take you to nice hotels, feed you nice meals, provide a green room in the back with all the amenities that you need, and a wonderful platform where they stand up and even clap for you. Great music. So here's the point, I do believe there are mega churches that are healthy. But the only way to know this is to have someone investigate them, not for the purpose of exposing anything, but for the sole purpose of finding out what's really going on. And it would take three to six months of someone who's skilled at knowing how to find a culture. This is what Edgar Schein does, he'll go to places like let's just say IBM, and work there for nine months. And it takes that long to find what is actually in the soil feeding the place. So there's no megachurch pastor, or leaders, or any church is going to tell you that what's driving them is ambition, and competition. They want to win the battle of the best church in the neighborhood or in the city or in the state or in the United States. They will never say that, but that is one of the drivers. And it takes a long time to figure out that that's what's actually at work when fundamental decisions are made in the church. So I would say I've never had the opportunity to actually examine a mega church at that level. I do know, a mega church model that the theory is that it's small groups that meet on Sunday. That's the kind of mega church model has the capacity to be working at character formation. But I can't say that I looked at the people I've met there have been very impressive, but that's what a famous pastor in Canada that was his model as well. JULIE ROYS  19:26 Bruxy Cavey. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:27 Yeah, that's a lot of problems. JULIE ROYS  19:29 Yeah. And he comes from Brethren In Christ Anabaptist background which is my background. I grew up in that so at that was very sad for me to see that happen. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:39 Well, I endorsed a lot of his books so not that long before this story. Yeah, I've known Bruxy a long time. Sad story. JULIE ROYS  19:47 Yeah, it is and Brethren in Christ churches from my at least from my growing up, I haven't been in one for many years because we don't really have them in the Midwest, but I felt like they were phenomenal at character formation, spiritual formation. You talk about three pivotal priorities–and one you've touched on–but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive because we're talking about emphasis on character, not ability. I mean, that seems like one of those like, Duh, this is basic, right? I mean, we should be all about character. But why is it that this is such a misplaced priority? Like we really are not looking at character in our churches, and we find, pastor after pastor after pastor falling into scandal and into disrepute, because of character flaws? Why is this? SCOT McKNIGHT  20:39 I think, let's say the pastor on the platform is a different beast altogether than ordinary people in the church. But those aren't the same things. The character issues, you're expecting people to hire a pastor to be able to perform on that platform every Sunday, and put butts in the seats and bills in the plate, and baptisms in the pool. And buildings on the campus. That's what they hire him for. But I would say there's a couple things. Number one is our church is, let's say, measurement devices, or success measurements are not shaped by that at all. A second thing is, it's extremely difficult to measure spiritual growth in a true character formation. And I think I said two, but I got a third one. And it takes a lot of pastors. A lot. You can't have one pastor working with the transformation of 50 people. They can't do that. They don't have that kind of time. That's why the small group model has the capacity. If you don't have pinheads running the small group. If you have people who are Mr. Rogers, like who get to work with people in that small group. We just have a lot of things distorted in the wrong direction. And they start in the wrong location. JULIE ROYS  22:06 And this is the challenge, isn't it? Like you said in the book, if you're going to transform from a toxic culture to a TOV one, what you've seen is that it takes minimum seven years, probably three years before you see this change start to happen. And often the church will shrink. In Oak Hills, they lost what 1000 people? LAURA BARRINGER  22:28 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  22:28 Yeah. And I said this at the beginning of the RESTORE conference, to the pastors who were there, because we talked about, you know, a lot of church hurt at these conferences. And I did hear from one pastor who came and this was at the previous year, and he said, “Yeah, it was really, really powerful conference, but I kind of got the feeling as a pastor that maybe we're the bad guys.” And so I wanted to make sure this one to say, “No, we love you. We're so glad you're here. And the fact that you as a pastor, invested in coming to hear from wounded souls, about the way that they've been hurting the Church says something about you and your character and why you're here. And you're exactly the kind of pastors that we need in our churches.” Yet. I think if I were doing a conference on how you can grow your church overnight, I wouldn't have enough seats, if I had a proven method of making your church double overnight. But what you're talking about here is, here's a path to making your church maybe smaller, maybe less successful in the world's eyes, and trying to get people to buy into this model. But in the end, there's greater fulfillment isn't there in knowing that you're actually producing people who are furthering the kingdom of God? Because you're actually modeling Christ to people. It's a powerful thing. But how do you get people to buy into that? SCOT McKNIGHT  23:48 Well, when you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with his renegade subversive hideout seminaries in northern Germany and Prussia, and the impact of Dallas Willard on someone like James Smith, where it was over time, with one person working with another person. And that's a different calling. And it's not like that's what we hire people in churches to do. You know, the last Barna book I read by David Kinnaman, was on pastors. And I think the number was 12% of pastors enjoy discipleship. LAURA BARRINGER  24:34 That low? SCOT McKNIGHT  24:35 Yeah, it may be lower than that, but I think it was in the book, Pastor Paul. But that is not what they see themselves doing. They see themselves preaching and leading and administrating and organizing. And some of them writing books, and traveling around speaking at conferences. That's what they see themselves doing. But if you work in Navigators or you work in Campus Crusade or InterVarsity on a campus and colleges, which are some of the most effective TOV institutions in the world. They are all about working with young college students and helping them deal with the fact that they got drunk last night, and we got to find out what's going on. And they disciple people. And it takes a lot of time. And in four years, those students, a lot of them want to come back and do the same to other college students. That's the multiplication principle of Navigators. And Navigators is all about one on one, JULIE ROYS  25:37 And what virtues should we be looking for? And should we be cultivating? LAURA BARRINGER  25:42 Theologian. SCOT McKNIGHT  25:43 (laughter) There's a couple of ways to look at this. And I think we need to take the major virtue passages in the Bible. So look at the 10 commandments. Alright, look at the book of Psalms, pick a couple of prophets and say, What are they trying to inculcate in people? And how they should live? Then look at the Sermon on the Mount. Look at Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit. Look at what Paul says about love in First Corinthians 13. Look at First John's teachings. Avoid Jude because he's too hot, a little angry all the time. So and just realize that there are different ways to package this over time to frame what virtues we want to talk about. Now, there's ways of summarizing, let's say, we want to be followers of Jesus. That's a summary statement. Or we want to be characterized by love. Or if you're in the Puritan movement, you want to be characterized by godliness. And that means you read the Puritans, and you subscribe to Banner of Truth  Trust, and all this, and these become your heroes. Jonathan Edwards is the guy. But all these terms are summary statements that need to be unfolded. And so the virtues, the character that forms these virtues, so that they become sort of instincts can be framed in different ways. But all those passages can help us shape the kinds of virtues we're looking for. JULIE ROYS  27:23 So we have character is one of our priorities. Another one is TOV power. And I have to say, when you hear that word power, and you've experienced abuse of power, just that word power, can be scary. So how can we tell if power is being harnessed and used in a good way, as opposed to a toxic way? LAURA BARRINGER  27:49 Yeah, this is a big one for us. After A Church Called TOV was published, we received letter after letter after letter, we wrote a lot about sexual abuse, we heard mostly from victims of power abuse, we would get these letters every week, my dad would get some I would get some. And it was story after story of people who had been wounded, mostly by pastors who had misused their power. And the people had tried to stand up for themselves or those who found the courage to maybe try to talk to elders. It was like they didn't get very far because people didn't believe them, or it was done behind closed doors. So people say, Well, I haven't seen him do that. That's not how he is. That's not my experience. And that was so painful, because it discounts the reality of what another person endured. So this was a really big one for us when we went to write PIVOT. All of us have power, right? Like, I have power, I'm a teacher, so I have the power to influence those under me and how people use their power is a measure of their character of who they are as a person. SCOT McKNIGHT  29:09 People have power. And anybody who exercises a decision, who is a leader, has a right to make those decisions. And people underneath them, I guess, have a right to bellyache about them as well. I mean, that's part of the complaint culture that workplaces develop. But to me, one of the signs of power desire is when someone who is your leader makes a decision that you don't like how do you respond? Do you manipulate? Do you gossip? Do you attack? Do you get other people in your corner so that you can eventually destroy that person's reputation and character? That's a very important element of power, in institutions, is a complaint culture that forms. All narcissists have no self awareness of the power that they have, and what they are doing to people around them. They have lack of self awareness. So they think what they're doing is right all the time. And when they're criticized, they DARVO. “That's not what I was doing.” Well, yes, you did. That's the impact you made on it. So they lacked that awareness.  So it needs to be revealed by people being able to have a safe place to be able to express what they've experienced from a person. I've been in institutions where presidents were removed. I'm at one right now. And the former president, there were too many people who were released, and then stories were released about that person. And The Roys Report reported about it. JULIE ROYS  30:53 Yes we did. SCOT McKNIGHT  30:54 Not very good news for our seminary. But those were symptoms, signs that something's going on. And it was not a safe place for people to be able to register their complaints. And it didn't seem to be achieving anything, I think power is going to happen. People get to do this, who are leaders. They have power. So they exercise their power, and not everybody's going to agree with it, and people get to interpret it. And they can be dead wrong, and be very convincing, even though they're wrong. But at the same time, there has to be some sort of device mechanism, TOV tool, that gives people some indications of how that person is using power. And I think it's possible to reveal some of this stuff. But I think it's impossible to change a narcissist. JULIE ROYS  31:52 So you have to have somebody in positions of leadership, who obviously have the character and wants to use their power in a right way. And one of the things that that you do in this book, which I think is really helpful, is you not only have questions at the end of each chapter, but you do have assessment tools, where you can begin to assess some of these things to say, Okay, this is a toxic culture, this is a TOV culture, this is a good way of using power. And maybe not so good way of using power. It's a beautiful thing, when you see somebody in power, use that power to protect others to draw out someone who's quiet, who wouldn't normally speak, to be able to notice the weak and the vulnerable and to use the power to protect and to help. SCOT McKNIGHT  32:39 I think people who use power well, are not recognized as using power. Because something happens and you go, Oh, that was really nice. And you didn't realize that that leader decided to elevate somebody in a way that empowered them. So when they're empowering others, you usually don't recognize that they're using power. It's when they violate the power. A good umpire in a baseball game is unrecognized. And when you're talking about the umpires, it's because they screwed up. They messed up stuff. You notice it. “That was terrible!” And I think that's the same way with leaders. If you don't recognize their leadership, and things are functioning pretty well, you probably got a pretty good leader. JULIE ROYS  33:33 That's good. Yeah, I would say the number one problem of most of the bad leaders that I report on, obviously, the character issues there and everything, but the way it often comes out is in hypocrisy. They're just not living, what they say they believe. And you make a big point of one of the priorities is you got to model. You got to be the example of what you want your culture to be. And I love this, one of the people that you talk about modeling this goodness is, as you said, Mr. Rogers. Explain how Mr. Rogers is modeling exactly what he's teaching. LAURA BARRINGER  34:14 Well, when we went to write A Church Called TOV, I kept sending my dad examples like, what about this pastor or this one? And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he said, We need somebody that's dead. (laguhter) Because–that's exactly what he said–they have to be dead. Because there's too many scandals that erupt. And sure enough, we have a story in A Church Called TOV, that when it went to the next printing, we had to remove because the pastor, allegations etc. So we use Mr. Rogers as our example. Mr. Rogers, from everything we have read about him, the man that you saw on TV was the man that everybody knew. He was patient. He was gentle. He was just as kind in person as he was on the television screen. He would get distracted by children, he would tell Oprah, I'll come on your show, but you can't have children in the audience because I will be distracted, I will be I know that I will be, all of my attention will go to them the vulnerable. That's what my heart and soul is, is for. And so when you said hypocrisy, that's the opposite of Mr. Rogers, there are some beautiful stories that we recited in the book about him that he is as good a man as he appeared to be. JULIE ROYS  35:35 Hmm. And there was one in the book, I thought was so touching about a man whose wife . . . was the wife, the employee, I believe, or was LAURA BARRINGER  35:44 The wife was the employee. JULIE ROYS  35:46 Yeah. So the wife was the employee, and she died. It sounds like young, got cancer and, and Mr. Rogers would show up and visit, you know, visited on a regular basis. And the day she died, he he knocked on the door and said, I just had a sense that, that you needed me today, or you needed to be visited today. And here, she was dying. And he came in and cried with him, you know, as his wife was dying and prayed with him. And the husband said, he never talked about it. Nobody ever heard that story about Mr. Rogers. LAURA BARRINGER  36:21 He didn't get up and talk about the ways that he volunteered or helped people. I also love the story about the reporter who maybe this is in A Church Called TOV. No. I remember I don't remember no. He said, “Do you know, who is the most important person in the world to me right now?” And the reporter was like, Who who is the most important person? Mr. Rogers said, “You, I'm talking to you, you have my full attention. You're the most important person in the world to me right now.” And the reporter was, like, stunned that a celebrity would spend that much time and give him that much attention for I think he said an hour which was unheard of with celebrities, interviews. JULIE ROYS  37:05 Well, and as a reporter, you're just happy when somebody wants to talk to you because most of the people I talk to, they don't want to talk to me. SCOT McKNIGHT  37:13 But Julie, you know the issues of the people that that we want to find out more about, that have become celebrities that Katelyn Beaty has written about. They're there. And you just think they're just amazing because of the platform persona, that they've presented in their pastoral sermons. You just go, “I want to be like that person.” Okay, so the tendency is to make those the examples. And all you see about them is the presentation on the platform. And that's why I said to Laura, we can't take living examples now. I mean, yes, I understood what she was doing. And she had some wonderful stories, and they they truly are probably good people. But because I'm older, you know, I think when when I wrote when we wrote TOV I was probably 65. JULIE ROYS  38:10 A whippersnapper. SCOT McKNIGHT  38:11 Yeah, I was young compared to the day.  here were people that we wanted, you know, that I could easily say they were fantastic people that in the last five years, I would say, Well, maybe that's not so true. So it was important for me I finally said, Laura, we got to find dead people whose whose stories are unimpeachable. But I have found stories of people that I have exalted in my years as a professor. I've written I've used their names. And I discovered later that they were horrific people. And nobody knew. Nobody was talking. Because even in those days, you didn't talk about things like that. We, I mean, when Kennedy was a president, we didn't talk about what was going on in the White House, behind closed doors. Now we know these things. So that's why we went with dead people. But but nobody questions Mr. Rogers. And so we used him in both books. LAURA BARRINGER  39:09 I remember that–my dad's texts, “Nope, only dead people.” JULIE ROYS  39:13 Problem is even dead people, Ravi Zacharias that didn't come out, you know, until after he was dead. But I mean, obviously, a little better if they've had a little bit of time, between their life and some study of the kind of person they were, SCOT McKNIGHT  39:30 I would also say that nobody's perfect. Not many people are like Mr. Rogers. So people with warts and all is not the worst thing. David is hardly a beautiful character in all the pages of the Bible. The apostle Paul can lash out at people. I don't know about Peter. Mary seems to be a good person, other than the fact that she's trying to tell Jesus what to do and how to be a messiah. So we just we can't expect perfection but we expect a certain level of maturity that we can count on. And we may find out that Pastor got really mad one day and said something he shouldn't have, but he admitted it. JULIE ROYS  40:11 That's a big one to me is Do you hear the pastor admitting wrong, asking for forgiveness, because that needs to be a regular practice. Let's talk about some of these practices of transforming cultures. And you talk about there being a transformational agent. Normally, when you see these kinds of transformations happening, and as well, a transformational coalition. SCOT McKNIGHT  40:35 Julie, let's just say you realize your church has got some stuff in the soil that needs to be healed. Alright. And you go through a process of discovery. And you come up with five things that we need to work on in the next five years. All right, I think that's a pretty normal process. I don't believe that the pastor should be in charge of all this. Now, in most churches, I believe the pastor will be in charge of this because the pastor is in charge of everything. But I think it should be handed off to a transformation agent, who is independent, and can get more honest responses from people than the pastor can, unless the transformation agent is just a flying monkey, as the as the words are used, or a mole for the pastor. If it's a person of character, they're going to be trusted, and the pastor is going to have to listen to the results. But I think it's good to have a transformation agent whose responsibility it is to organize administrate, to evaluate, and to pass the information on so that it can be implemented in a really good way to the leadership of the church. But it can't just be one person or two people. And it's not based on it's not a bunch of sermons, LAURA BARRINGER  41:52 I don't want to skip over something really important that we learned from Edgar Schein, again, the major researcher on this topic of transforming culture, is he said, You can't transform anything until your problem is clearly defined and crystal clear. That's what led us to write the TOV tool so that it can help groups or whomever is taking it churches, groups, teams, clearly identify areas of strength, and then areas where growth is important. And Edgar Schein said, that's like the most important step of all is listening. And that might take a lot of conversation and a lot of authenticity and hearing maybe things about yourself, you don't want to hear. But that's like one of the most important steps is identifying, “we are not putting people above the reputation of our institution.” Or, “it seems like we're really good at truth telling, but we're not offering a lot of justice to the wounded.” So every organization is different. But those conversations where you unearth, what are the strengths, and where do we need to grow in these areas of like that we created the TOV tool out of our circle of TOV from the first book. It just cannot be skipped over. And then that can be used by the transformation agent and the coalition to have some data and listening as they move forward or attempt to move forward. SCOT McKNIGHT  43:28 And I would add to the coalition is you can't transform a culture because you're a persuasive speaker, with a couple of friends in your church that are all doing this. It takes a culture's ownership to get there. So our theory is okay, we got a transformation agent and a couple people, they studied the Bible, I won't get into all that, then it grows to a group of five. And then it grows to a group of 10. And then it splits into a couple more groups that grow to a group of 30 or 40. And you're starting to build a critical mass of people who are committed to this idea and working it out. But they're contributing to the idea. So it's not like I got a great idea. Now we're gonna go implement it. It is, I have an idea. Let's work on this together. And before long once you get 50 to 75 people involved in it, there's ownership but the idea has now grown into something that is healthier, stronger, deeper, wider. It starts to get ownership, if you have a fairly sizable church, before you go to the church. JULIE ROYS  44:36 And I think what's to me exciting about listening about some churches that did this. And even hearing you talk about it, this is a very organic thing that happens as people are discussing this and something starts to grow. I mean, basically, this culture begins to reform as people are reforming. Right? And they're beginning to model it, and they're beginning to change, and so then you begin to see this transformation happen. And then hopefully you're moving into a different culture. Right? And the congregation becomes a different kind of culture.  And those who quite frankly, don't buy into it, leave. I mean, I remember the power of that when we did youth ministry, like we just said, from the beginning, we don't do entertainment, the world does that better than us. But if you want to come and worship and pray, like, we're really going to be a part of that, and studying the Bible, and the ones that weren't interested in that would just fall off. And then we would gather a group of people who really wanted to do that, and it became our culture. But it takes that kind of time. But you talk about then the last part of your book about the powers and the congregational culture powers, I thought it was really interesting, especially Laura, when you were talking about kind of the practices that led to a culture at Willow Creek when you were there. And then you contrasted that with these practices that led to a culture at this Quaker church that was completely different. Talk about that, because I thought, it's such a great example and a contrast, because we often don't think about what we're doing when we're doing it, and how this is creating a culture. But I think, as I was reading it, it made me think about things that I'm doing, and what kind of culture does that create? So yeah, talk about that. LAURA BARRINGER  46:29 So I didn't really realize what the culture of Willow Creek was, until I left Willow Creek. And being out of it allowed me to see and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying like, factually, there are a lot of people that attend, they put people up on stage, that walk through the campus with bodyguards. And there's sort of a feel of like haves have nots, or the whole service leads up to what the speaker is going to say. And you know, weeks ahead of time, who's going to be speaking and like Mark, and I'd be the first to tell you, like, we got into a terrible rut at Willow, we were like, Oh, we don't really like that speaker. So we're not going to go this week, you know, our neighbors would be like, come for a bike ride. Okay, we'll do that instead, like, we were just consumers of a show. So we left Willow Creek and experienced the Anglican tradition, which is very different. But then what I wrote about in the book, I tried to get into less Twitter fights or whatever X fights? JULIE ROYS  47:37 It's weird. It's just weird. LAURA BARRINGER  47:39 I know. One day, I just wandered into this, like delightful conversation with a Quaker pastor. And I remember his name, because we have a family friend of the same name, Scott Wagner, and he posted pictures, and I don't know anything about the Quakers other than what I've read, you know, just a little bit. So I'm not I don't know where they stand theologically at all. But his pictures were so startling to me. They were getting ready for a meeting. And the chairs were set up in a circle. And it was just in this like, small room with wooden floors. And after coming out of the Willow Creek tradition was like, well, where's the speaker gonna stand? But that wasn't what the goal was at all. It was like a meeting where everybody was seen as equals. And I don't know, it seems like is that how the early church was? That's how I picture people in my head, like, sitting in a circle together. Not like all of us staring at a person on stage. JULIE ROYS  48:44 I have to say, being in a house church now and experiencing meeting in homes, and we haven't had a sermon. You know, in the past 18 months since I've been going to our house church. There's no sermon. We're opening the Bible. And there's a facilitator and we dig in together, and we study the Bible together. And I just love it. I mean, I come away every Sunday, it's like, wow, that was rich, that was really good. And I've gone to a church too where we were in the round, in fact, is one of your colleagues there, Dave Fitch, his church that we attended, where we would have the chairs all in a circle, I love that, I think in the Anglican tradition, instead of the sermon being the highlight, really, the table is. Eucharist. That's the highlight, and that communicates a value. So I think looking at what are we doing in the service, and I have wondered about this. And to me, the fact that we make a man on stage preaching, which is very heavy head knowledge. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm, I often wonder if that's sort of a post enlightenment way of thinking that the pinnacle of the service is the sermon? SCOT McKNIGHT  49:56 It happened at the reformation that turned the sermon into a major, the major focus. The early church didn't have sermons. LAURA BARRINGER  50:04 They had letters, right? They would hear, read letters? JULIE ROYS  50:07 And at that one sermon where, what is it Eutychus?  Fell out the window and died. You know, SCOT McKNIGHT  50:12 Paul was talking, he was talking. But I mean, it was a it was a house church, you're talking about a normal sized living room with maybe an atrium with some water in the middle. And people around it talking and someone instructors instruction. There'd be the reading of a letter. There'd be the exposition of a psalm or something. And eventually, they would read scriptures and then preach about or teach about it. But it was a fellowship, where there was instruction, there was prayer, there was worship, there was caring for one another. And that's where the church got started. Jesus didn't preach sermons in the houses, he told stories, parables, it's where the parables came from. JULIE ROYS  50:59 Well, obviously, there's a lot of things that we can do to sort of jumpstart transformation. We've talked about some of those. But I love that you kind of land this book with where the power really comes from. And it's from the Holy Spirit, and it's from God's grace. So talk about the importance of relying on the Spirit, and grace, so that we're not manufacturing something but we're actually being led by God. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:31 When we were writing this book, I told Laura, probably 10 times, every chapter could be the first chapter. They were all interlocking. LAURA BARRINGER  51:39 We had trouble ordering the chapters. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:42 And theologically, I wanted to begin with that theological ending, but I know that just sounds like I'm a seminary professor. And we've got to get people interested in the topic first. So the neuralgics is what it's called sometimes. So yeah, I think the example of Christ, the significance of the Holy Spirit being open to the Spirit, the power of God's grace, which is operative, in the example of Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, all those things are what ultimately is responsible for transformation of an individual person, and of a community, a church. If we think it's just mechanics, and structure, and system and program, it's gonna go dry. But when it is the dynamic of the Spirit of God, leading us, prompting us, directing us, making us change, making us think of new things, we're in the right place. LAURA BARRINGER  52:39 That's what I love about the story of Oak Hills is that they say we felt this sense of dis equilibrium in our soul. And they surrendered to what they felt the Spirit was telling them and leading them. And they followed. And I think they would say, the transformation was worth it. Rather than having consumers, they were discipling people to grow in Christ. And they were like, we just steadily pushed against the culture, and taught people how to live like Jesus. That was it. JULIE ROYS  53:12 And I believe that Jesus said, his last words were not to go and make big churches or converts. But yeah, to make disciples, that is, what the church should be doing. And so I just really appreciate what you guys have put together here in this book, and that you're really moving people, I think, towards something beautiful and something good. Any last thoughts or final encouragement for those who might be thinking of embarking on this journey of trying to transform or are in the midst of it. And I mean, as I said, at the beginning, it's not for the faint of heart, it's not going to be easy. It could be a seven year or even longer process, any encouragement for them right now. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:00 I would say go with it. There's going to be many times when you'd like to return back to where you started and say, we'll just go back to where it was working. Roll with it. Because it's going to be different for every group. But it's worth it to pursue this direction, to see what God can do in your church and in your institution, over time, as you begin to focus on, let's say, the power of God's grace to transform us into being people who are like Jesus Christ. JULIE ROYS  54:34 And that's pretty exciting. LAURA BARRINGER  54:36 Amen. JULIE ROYS  54:37 Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and appreciate the ministry that you're having and the impact that you're having. This has been extremely helpful. So thank you. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:48 Thank you, Julie. LAURA BARRINGER  54:49 Thank you for having us. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:51 Thanks, Laura. LAURA BARRINGER  54:52 Thanks, Dad. JULIE ROYS  54:54 Scot and Laura, thank you so much for the gift of this book—and the gift of your time today. This has been so helpful . . . And if you'd like a copy of Scot & Laura's new book, Pivot, we would be happy to send you one for a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising. We simply have you—the people who care about exposing toxic churches and leaders, and then encouraging them to transform into TOV ones. So, if you'd like to support our work and get the book Pivot, just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from Restore by Carson Weitnauer on Disillusionment and Hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carson tells his profound disillusionment when he discovered the truth about Ravi Zacharias. At the time, Carson was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and Ravi had been his hero. This is such a painfully honest, yet hopeful, talk—and one you won't want to miss. So, be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won't miss any of these episodes! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged!   Read more

Entrepreneurs are deeply rooted in data and research.And one of the best Christian sources for what's going on in the world is the Barna Group.On today's podcast, we're talking with Barna's President David Kinnaman about what it means for us to understand the times.Find the whole episode at the link in the comments.

David Kinnaman is the author of the bestselling books Faith For Exiles, Good Faith, You Lost Me and unChristian. He is CEO of Barna Group, a leading research and communications company that works with churches, nonprofits, and businesses ranging from film studios to financial services. In this podcast conversation, we talk about various interesting trends facing the church, including the need to "clean out the attic" of the church; that is, to reassess what it is we're doing and whether we should keep doing these things. 

David Kinnaman, CEO of Barna Group, talks about Barna's extensive research they are doing for churches and non-profit organizations. RESOURCES FOR THIS EPISODE: Give to CMDA Year-end Matching Gift Email CMDA Matters The Convergence: Critical Conversations on Mental Health Barna Group Center for Well-Being Podcast Interview with Dr. Darilyn Falck and Reverend Kent Jones Center for Advancing Healthcare Missions Global Missions Health Conference

Topics: Children's Messages  Marriage counseling, is it worth it? Where is Jesus? Ascension Day        Thank you:  Concordia University Chicago 1517.org  thejaggedword.com Grace Lutheran Ventura St. James Lutheran, Chicago   Monthly Sponsors: Frankie Meadows, Blayne Watts, Eddie Switek, ITO Radio America   YOU CAN BE A RINGSIDE SPONSOR:  https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=TZBU7UQQAWEVN     Music: Joel Allen Hess - "I see a Light" More on bandcamp Dead Horse One - “I love my man”   Other Stuff: The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, Gordon Lightfoot Concordia Chicago Ringside Podcast On the Children's Sermon, guttedienst.org The Authority of Scripture Is Not the Problem, Russell Moore, christinaitytoday.org unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity…and Why It Matters, David Kinnaman             

Episode Blurb:Good Question is a podcast for the curious by Compassion Christian Church. Join us as we create space to discuss if the church is relevant to you today. Obviously, we believe it is, but why and how can we engage together in meaningful ways? Marcus Johnson and Blair Bauman talk about what we can do to create better communities in our churches.If you have questions you want to submit or want to talk with our team, email us at:  Online@CompassionChristian.comWEBSITE: https://compassionchristian.com/ CONNECT: https://compassionchristian.churchcenter.com/people/forms/295239 FOLLOW US: Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/CompassionChristian   Instagram-  https://www.instagram.com/compassionchristian/ AND-- Don't forget to RATE, SUBSCRIBE, LIKE and SHARE Good Question! If you want to look further at this topic here's some helpful resources we looked at: Faith for Exiles, David Kinnamanhttps://www.barna.com/research/of-the-four-exile-groups-only-10-are-resilient-disciples/https://religioninpublic.blog/2020/02/10/generation-z-and-religion-what-new-data-show/https://www.barna.com/research/5-reasons-millennials-stay-connected-to-church/

Presence and Power | (Re)acquainted with his presence and power | April 2, 2023Logan Holloman | NextGen Pastor Why did you come this morning? 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (NIV)And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. 1 Corinthians 2:10b-12 (NIV)The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. The Holy Spirit moves our faith from head knowledge to heart knowledge. “The Spirit makes the heart of Christ real to us: not just heard, but seen; not just seen, but felt; not just felt, but enjoyed. The Spirit takes what we read in the Bible and believe on paper about Jesus’ heart and moves it from theory to reality, from doctrine to experience."Dane Ortlund, Gentle and Lowly “The first practice of resilient discipleship we uncovered in our research among exemplar, young adults (the group we labeled resilient disciples) is a transformational experience of Jesus. Most Americans say they are Christians, but few follow that up with deep, heart-level, life-directing commitments. This is true of all generations, and it remains true of young adults.”Faith for Exiles, David Kinnaman & Mark Matlock In our qualitative interviews, we discovered that people don’t learn to follow Jesus simply by having lots of great head knowledge about him (although having the right beliefs matter, as we’ll see). Experiencing Jesus is found along a relational pathway with family, friends, and other people who love and experience Jesus. We are loved into loving Jesus.Faith for Exiles, David Kinnaman & Mark Matlock Practicing expectancy Luke 23:18-27; 32-34 (NIV) Reflection Questions:1) Studies have shown that the primary reason believers and nonbelievers alike come to church is to “meet with God and experience his presence.” What is the primary reason you come to church? 2) Have you experienced the Holy Spirit? If so, how have you experienced him? 3) What is the foundation of your faith? How is that foundation? Is it rock solid? Shaky? 4) What would it look like for you this week to be “expectant” of God? Next Steps: Complete the Connect Card to receive more information, have us pray for you, or to ask us any question: http://journeyweb.net/connectcard Want to worship through giving and support the ministry of Journey Church: https://journeyweb.net/giveDownload our app: https://journeyweb.net/app Join our Facebook Group to stay connected throughout the week: https://facebook.com/groups/JourneyChurchBozemanGet your children connected to our children's ministry, Base Camp: https://journeyweb.net/childrenOur Student Ministry is for High School and Middle School students: https://journeyweb.net/studentsSubscribe to our YouTube Channel:

From figuring out how to deal with content overload to better understanding the future of church to figuring out why God cares about who we sleep with and rounding it out with the excitement of a new Dodger baseball season. I've gotta say, March was an incredible month for Leading Simple. It was great having each guest on the show this month. If you hear something that stood out to you and want to know more, then you can find the full episodes from this month here: Episode 244: Brad Lomenick makes navigating content overload simple Episode 246: David Kinnaman makes the future of church simple Episode 247: Sam Allberry answers why God cares who we sleep with Episode 248: MLB Scout Marty Lamb makes this season for the Dodgers Simple  ----------------------------------------------------------------Special thanks to our sponsor, BELAY!If you're a church leader trying to do it all, you don't have to anymore. BELAY's modern church staffing solutions have been helping busy church leaders delegate important the details for over a decade. And just for the incredible people who listen to Leading Simple, we partnered with BELAY to bring you a church leadership toolkit with some of the most essential resources to support you in your role. You can download the resource here.

When you think of organizational research, the names that most readily come to mind are Gallup, Pew, and Barna Group. We've gotten to hear from Savannah Kimberlin as we talked through what a post-COVID world would look like (you can listen to the episode here). And it's an honor to have David Kinnaman, CEO of Barna Group on the podcast this week. David helps shed light on what the data says about the future of the Church and shares his perspective on some of the trends we're seeing in churches today. David was also gracious enough to share his personal experience navigating major life transitions and overcoming difficulties along the way.Special thanks to BELAY Solutions for sponsoring this week's episode. And you can access a free leadership resource here at belaysolutions.com/rusty. Or you can text RUSTY to 55123 to claim this exclusive offer.About David and Barna Group- 02:41 David's early days Being a public pastor as CEO of Barna About about Barna Group The Future of the Church - 10:05 Questions we should ask ourselves when we look at the data. Confronting our own assumptions about Christianity David breaks down church trends. Transition, Grief, and Loss - 49:58 The power of suffering. Learning from those who've suffered greatly. Resources Episode Transcript Barna Group's Website 2 Corinthians 1:3

Hey friend! Have you seen so many people- on social media, in your own life, or both- walking through deconstructing their faith? Why is that happening? Is there anything we can do to help our kids build a faith they won't have to tear down?  I brought in a friend to talk through these things with me. David Kinnaman, the CEO of the leading research company, Barna Group, did years of research to try to answer those questions, and he's here to share some of his insights with us.  David spent many years researching why people leave the Church, and then he and his team asked, “What can we learn from those who stay?” The results were fascinating!  Listen in as David and I talk about:  5 practices of young people who have a resilient faith What the story of Daniel in Scripture teaches us as we navigate a digital world Why is oversimplification an enemy of faith? One profound question we have to ask ourselves as Christian parents raising children of faith  The importance of work and how our work and faith are connected. David Kinnaman is the CEO of Barna Group and author of multiple bestselling books, including Faith for Exiles: 5 Ways for a New Generation to Follow Jesus in a Digital Babylon. David has three children and lives in Fort Worth, Texas.  Favorite quotes: ~“Things have sped up so much that the ability of our families and churches to stay up with what it means to live a fully human and fully Christian life is really changing.” ~“Being ready and prepared and having deep roots into what God says about us, those are the things that are most important.” ~“We're doing dial-up ministry in a WiFi world.” ~“Young people really want to learn and I think a lot of churches do a disservice by oversimplifying the message of the Christianity.” ~“We have a more American vision of what it means to be a young adult than we have a Christian vision of what it means to be a young adult.” ~“Let's give away the fear and instead focus on what God has for us.” Links to great things we discussed:  Barna Group Faith for Exiles Awake - Hillsong My Blood - Twenty One Pilots The Mandalorian 1917 The Tech-Wise Family The Lord of the Rings  Tolkien Shrinking So Close - Brandon Lake and Amanda Cook The Lives We Actually Have Order your copy of Remaining You While Raising Them here. Hope you loved this episode! Be sure to subscribe in iTunes and slap some stars on a review! :) xo, Alli

David Kinnaman, president of Barna Group, joins us to discuss the current and future state of the Church. The cast is joined by a special guest cast member to discuss everything from MrBeast's recent miracle, to a zoo's clever fundraising tactic, to Frontier's questionable new deal and more.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, Barna Group CEO David Kinnaman discusses Barna's new study, The Open Generation.Click here to check out Barna Access Plus and download the Open Generation e-book!Here's how you can connect with us:- www.ciy.com- @christinyouth on Instagram: you can find all of our individual program accounts in the bio- CIY Community Facebook Group- Email us at podcast@ciy.comAs always, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. It also helps us out if you rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and send this episode to a friend!

David Kinnaman and Carey Nieuwhof share insights and ideas about the future of the Church and some exciting news about what's next for the podcast. Stay tuned for more to come in the new year!   - Follow Barna at: Instagram: @barnagroup Twitter: @davidkinnaman | @barnagroup Facebook: Barna Group Youtube: Barna Group   Relevant Links: Barna Access Plus Gloo: Find out more about the He Gets Us initiative at hegetsuspartners.com/churches

In 1991, the Barna Group asked American adults if they believed that “the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches,” and 46 percent of respondents strongly agreed. By 2016 that number dropped to 33 percent. Barna president David Kinnaman said, “With each passing year, the percent of Americans who believe that the Bible is ‘just another book written by men’ increases.” In Luke 8, as Jesus’ ministry and the opposition against Him grew, a clear definition of true discipleship became increasingly necessary. Jesus told the parable of the soils to a large crowd who had gathered from several towns. This teaching was intended for the broader audience, and the farming imagery would have been familiar. In the parable, some seed fell on the road, where it was trampled and eaten by birds. Other seed fell on rocky ground, which could be hard to spot in Palestine since a thin topsoil often covered a limestone rock base. These seeds sprouted and then immediately dried up for lack of roots and water. A third set of seed fell among the weeds, which were plentiful and large in Palestine and easily choked out the seedlings. The rest of the seeds fell on good soil and yielded a hundredfold, a very fruitful crop in a land that expected only tenfold. When the disciples questioned the parable, Jesus explained that the seed was the Word of God, and people responded in various ways to the message—depending on the condition of their heart. Verses 19–21 reinforce the importance of responding to God’s Word. When Jesus was told that His mother and siblings were trying to see Him, He responded with a proverbial statement that He was closest to those who received the Word of God and lived by it. >> If you did a soil test on your heart, which kind would it be? Bearing fruit does not happen in a moment but over time. We can cultivate good soil by spending time daily in God’s Word.

David Kinnaman and Carey Nieuwhof sit down in-person and look back on starting ChurchPulse Weekly in March 2020, what they have learned from leaders through the years of the pandemic and the trends they have seen in the research. Part 1 of 2. - Follow Barna at: Instagram: @barnagroup Twitter: @davidkinnaman | @barnagroup Facebook: Barna Group Youtube: Barna Group   Relevant Links: Barna Access Plus Gloo: Find out more about the He Gets Us initiative at hegetsuspartners.com/churches.

For the past 40+ years the Barna Group has been leading the way in researching the latest trends impacting our churches, schools, and homes. In this unique episode, you'll get to hear from David Kinnaman, CEO of the Barna group, directly. During the short interview, we cover topics ranging from the latest research on Gen Z (essentially, our K-12 aged students) to the state of the church today and ways our schools can better partner with them, to wisdom he shares for parents raising children in our ever-swirling and changing world.

David Kinnaman is the author of the bestselling books Faith For Exiles, Good Faith, You Lost Me and unChristian. He […] The post David Kinnaman on “Ministry in the Age of Algorithms” appeared first on Child Discipleship.

David Kinnaman is the author of the bestselling books Faith For Exiles, Good Faith, You Lost Me and unChristian. He is also a speaker... The post David Kinnaman on “Ministry in the Age of Algorithms” appeared first on Resilient Disciples.

On this "Best Of" episode of the Cause+Effect Podcast, we revisit our time this season with David Kinnaman and Steve McBeth. Kinnaman, CEO of the Barna Group, joins the Cause+Effect Podcast to discuss some of their most recent research concerning Christianity and the emerging generation. McBeth is the founding president of Disney Interactive Worldwide, former Senior Advisor for the Barna Group, and, more recently, he has worked in the faith film industry, where he has been active with many industry players and faith ministries in the entertainment arena.

A recent article in the Atlantic reveals how the political polarization in the United States is now tearing evangelical churches apart. And Marvin Olasky, the former editor of World Magazine, writes about the dramatic change he witnessed among evangelicals over his long career. Drawing from thousands of letters he received, Olasky concludes, “The Republican party platform has become more important than the gospel for many who identify as evangelicals.” Special guest co-host Drew Dyck joins Phil and Skye to discuss the articles. Then, president of Barna research, David Kinnaman, is back with more stats to unpack. With a record number of pastors thinking seriously about quitting, and political polarization listed among the top reasons, Kinnaman says the church is facing a crisis of discipleship. He believes we need a political theology that's rooted in the gospel rather than partisanship. But is it too late? Also this week, fear over climate change is making progressives question the morality of having kids. And, South Korean college students are flush with cash. News Segment 0:00 - Intro 4:24 - News of the Butt 9:54 - Climate change and having kids 20:15 - How politics poisoned the evangelical church 30:47 - Evangelical Christianity in the age of Trump Sponsors 57:08 - World Relief worldrelief.org/holypost 59:04 - Faithful Counseling faithfulcounseling.com/holypost Barna Brief with David Kinnaman 1:00:14 - Barna Brief intro 1:01:32 - Data on pastors considering quitting 1:04:23 - Reason 1: Stress of job 1:06:20 - Reason 2: Loneliness 1:09:54 - Reason 3: Political division 1:21:05 - Good news in this data? 1:29:42 - Credits Barna Brief links: Barna Group, Faith Leadership in a Divided Culture https://shop.barna.com/products/faith-leadership-in-a-divided-culture Resilient Pastor Cohort (discount code is HOLYPOST15): barna.com/cohort “The Resilient Pastor” by Glenn Packiam - https://amzn.to/3HK2f4R News segment links: “South Korean Toilet Allows Students to Pay With Their Poop” - https://interestingengineering.com/south-korean-toilet-allows-students-to-pay-with-their-poop “Your Kids are Not Doomed” by Ezra Klein (NYT Opinion) -https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/05/opinion/climate-change-should-you-have-kids.html Andrew Walker tweet - https://twitter.com/andrewtwalk/status/1534136018269614081?s=20&t=Hvg_G52SvOYW0k8HIoNQRQ “How Politics Poisoned the Evangelical Church” by Tim Alberta (The Atlantic) - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/06/evangelical-church-pastors-political-radicalization/629631/ “The Sixty Years' War: Evangelical Christianity in the Age of Trump” by Marvin Olasky (National Review) - https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2022/06/27/the-sixty-years-war-evangelical-christianity-in-the-age-of-trump/ The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

Bryan Loritts (president of the Kainos Movement) sits down with David Kinnaman to discuss fatherhood and Juneteenth. Together they talk about the challenges fathers are facing, the role of mentors in the lives of fathers and the ongoing journey within the church towards racial equity.    -   Barna's Resilient Pastor Cohort: Sign up at Barna.com/pastorcohort, and use the code CPW15 for a listener discount!   If you have any additional ChurchPulse Weekly feedback or thoughts for our team, send an email to carey@carenieuwhof.com with the subject “CPW Feedback.”   Follow Barna at: Instagram: @barnagroup Twitter: @davidkinnaman | @barnagroup Facebook: Barna Group Youtube: Barna Group   Relevant Links: Barna Access Plus The Dad Difference by Bryan Loritts The Intentional Father by Jon Tyson

Albert Tate is a pastor, public speaker, podcast host and Mississippi native who accepted a call to ministry at 21 years old. Albert graduated with his Bachelor's degree from Wesley Bible College and is also working towards a Master's degree at Fuller Theological Seminary. Raised in the church, Albert began to preach at revivals and lead retreats for people eager to grow closer to Jesus. Albert followed God's lead to Lake Avenue Church in Pasadena, California. In 2011, Albert left Lake Avenue to found Fellowship Monrovia in Monrovia, California which has a loyal congregation and has 20,000 viewers watching its online services. He often speaks at camps, colleges and revivals. He now serves on the board of Azusa Pacific University and the advisory council of the Fuller Youth Institute. He is also deeply involved in international church planting and is a Co-Catalyst of LA Church Planting. Albert is also the teaching pastor at Willow Creek Church. Albert hosts the Albert Tate Podcast and Good News Today, a live weekday morning devotional show with thousands of daily viewers. The Albert Tate Podcast features prominent Christian leaders and voices (such as Leonce Crump, Terrell Owens, David Kinnaman, Phil Vischer, and others). Good News Today was started as an encouraging morning devotional at the onset of the Coronavirus Pandemic and has evolved into a space for interactive community and a necessary reminder that God is in control in all seasons and situations, even when He seems disobedient. To purchase Alberts new book visit HowWeLoveMatters.com