Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Shamanth Rao is the founder and CEO at Rocketship HQ. Shamanth also hosts the Mobile User Acquisition Show podcast, and is the lead instructor for the Mobile Growth Lab workshop series.RocketShip HQ is a boutique growth marketing firm with 8 figures in managed spend. Before founding RocketshipHQ, Shamanth led growth marketing resulting in 3 exits: Bash Gaming (sold for $170mm), Puzzle Social (acquired by Zynga), and FreshPlanet (acquired by Gameloft). Shamanth has also helped many other mobile apps grow and scale.Shamanth is passionate about teaching and sharing everything he's learned about mobile growth. Much of his time and energy goes into the Mobile User Acquisition Show. Shamanth strives to ensure that the wisdom he's gained reaches as many people as possible.In this episode, you'll learn: The history of user acquisition and algorithmic targeting How Apple's AppTrackingTransparency has shifted users to Android What Apple's new tracking policy means for developers Are subscription apps impacted more than other apps by Apple's tracking policy? Links & Resources A Brief History of App Store Monetization episode – with David Barnard A Brief History of Device Identification episode – with David Philippson iOS 14 & IDFA Deprecation How App Marketers Must Adapt - YouTube Shamanth Rao's Links RocketShip HQ's website The Mobile User Acquisition Show Mobile Growth Lab Follow Shamanth on Twitter Shamanth Rao's website Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode TranscriptShamanth: 00:00:00The more signal you give to the algorithm, the better the algorithm performs, right? You know, in the post AppTrackingTransparency world, if you gain more purchases, the better the algorithm performs, obviously that would take purchases from you and everybody in the world, and it would just do better. Now, obviously it's just taking your trial and doing much, much better.David: 00:00:38Welcome to the sub club podcast. I'm your host, David Bernard, and with me as always Jacob Eiting.Hello Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:45David, glad to be here with you, as always. David: 00:00:48Our guest today is Shamanth Rao, founder and CEO at RocketShip HQ, of the podcast Mobile User Acquisition Show, and lead instructor at the workshop series Mobile Growth. Shamanth's company, RocketShip HQ is a boutique growth marketing agency with eight figures in managed spend. Prior to founding RocketShip HQ Shamanth growth marketing, to three exits. Hey Shamanth.Welcome to the podcast. Shamanth: 00:01:16Honored to be here. Thank you for having me, David and Jacob.David: 00:01:19Yeah. So, I wanted to start with a little bit of a history lesson. You've been in mobile advertising and working on mobile apps for, since very early. So, could you take just a couple of minutes and step us through the history of kind of what led us to today with app tracking transparency, and all the different ups and downs and changes that have happened over the past?Shamanth: 00:01:48Yeah. There's been a lot of ups and downs, as you said. I see two overarching trends, but for folks who want to go into the weeds, I would actually recommend two podcast episodes. One was mine with you, David. A brief history of App Store monetization. You provide a very great perspective into how the App Store itself has changed over the years.The other one was an interview I did with David Phillips, A Brief History of Device Identification You know, we are all about brief histories, but, I think to what we talking about ATT and how essentially disrupted growth in today. There have been two forces that have led up to this point, the last decade or so I think it's important to know and understand both of these, just to know how we got here and why it's important, right.Because ATT just did not happen overnight. There were signs for a decade. And, you know, I think obviously a lot of this is evident in retrospect. but I think it's helpful to know and understand what those breadcrumbs were.Trend number one has been increasing accumulation of particular data platforms over the last decade.You know, I remember, you know, David, as you pointed out, I am a really old person who, which around then, but we don't advertise. It took off, with all this gray hair. But you know, when I started that we were doing CPC buys, CPM buys. I started doing mobile advertising before Facebook even had mobile ads, app ads.There is no conversion tracking. you know, I give it like no conversion tracking. If you, would buy installs, and you're like, oh, we bought 70 stops. We got so many touches that we are profitable and spent like millions on games the time. And suddenly the level of sophistication that emerged in mobile advertising. I don't think we could have posted in 12, 20 13, 20 14. But like I said, from the TPC buys gradually they have a CPI buys as ad networks that now are billion dollar companies. And so it's an app love and have a tiny ad networks at the time.A lot of others basically fell out of the side. know, they, they like, we have enough confidence to be able to build. Rather than just a or impression we have that kind of data, that kind of confidence the next time AEO or purchase optimization. This is 2016, right?It's just, it seems so recent. And it's staggering to think that they could not optimize like athletes if they six, years ago. And that was just the biggest game changer in it. I still remember having a lot of skepticism that this would even work and I'm like, how are they going to find out who's going to purchase?They've never done it, nobody's done it. But clearly, if somebody could do it as a Facebook, they had the budget for data. I can only to that point the time I think it became evident to me, myself, that as to why Facebook was so successful. basically have the IDFA that IDFA on Google ID.They had that idea, with print from on Facebook audience network. So for diva able to predict with ed accuracy, who the purchaser's book, obviously they took it a step further with relapse optimization, So obviously the more data Facebook's SDK gun. The better it got predicting who the purchaser as well.Obviously more data the pixels on the web got the better, the better the accuracy of the SDK became other way around that, because they had, you know, if you made a purchase on a beauty of that site, you would make a purchase on, an e-commerce app. So they put all of that data together.Right? So obviously Google had a very, very similar trajectory. I don't want to go too much into the weeds. Over the last decade, increasing amount of data accumulated by Facebook, by Google folks like apple. And then I am so all add Netflix, everybody got increasing amount of data about users, spectator. they just, weren't doing this in isolation, apple licensed up to this, you know, Google, Google had a bit of a conflict because they were also making money off of this.They are also making money off of this. these less active in pushing back, but you know, apple, the apple, again, not to go too much into the weeds that it's corporate strategy. Two, but for apple to say a hobby, a privacy minded, but it's also very, very much about profits for them. the opera motive.Oh, an ad network. No, I don't know. I don't have a lot of confidence to how they would do anything. Right. So apple said, know, look, we have this beauty ID, which is not great. Let's phase it out. Let's have an IDFA, which is reset the vote, which wasn't too much and improvement. they said, oh, let's make this, idea phase zero, but physio, which means how to use it goes on and off the lab.idea of it becomes and advertisers could not cannot target people. Shockingly enough, to idea, phase zero, which was, I think 2016. But if I use it on the flat adjustment advertises, please don't track the fuse. It's almost like a request. a non enforceable requests, basically needs to attract me, but nobody can, anyway, so even lab Vito was a very, very telltale sign that this is ATD is, where apple is headed.And if you have to look on the web, safari had intelligent tracking prevention. They have obviously. Much more active on the web terms of crackdowns, Mozilla had what what's called ETP. I think it's called it should tracking prevention. I forget what it's called, then Chrome of course said, Hey, we're going to deprecate They've accepted the deadline, but been a lot going on in the direction of privacy. Right. and that, has happened very, very much in parallel that increasing accumulation of data by. And to some extent, you know, it's having these surprises for anyone who's followed the breadcrumbs, not to gone to zero and 2018.Apple said kid stops will not allow tracking. That was almost like a trial balloon bar and of cost 2020. It was not unsurprising, I would say, right. That, it came to be just because of everything over the last decade that I just did.David: 00:09:21Yeah.That's a really great way to summarize it is those two parallel courses with it's like in the shadows, there was like more and more and more and more, more data accumulation feeding all of this, but simultaneously there was more and more and more awareness of privacy concerns.What that data was being used for, and that, you know, it does seem like the press a big influence in this. I mean, when was in New York times and wall street journal, both had big posts in like 2017, 2018, where they showed, you know, how you could track individual users when they're going to, you know, a certain medical clinic or, there was another set of stories around us service members who were being tracked by fitness apps. revealing, basic, we call unknown previously unknown, military installations and things like that. So it, it, yeah, there was a lot going on that has led us to this point. So. So now apple has, has dropped the ball after acting transparency. You know, you you're, you're, you're not allowed to track unless you first prompt.You know, we could, we could talk an hour on all the different motivations and the, and even the way they deliver it, you know, the, the way they. Request the prompt is, is, and the wording of the prompt it has, has even drawn controversy, but let's not get into that.Jacob: 00:10:52Time it comes up, I still don't know what to click, David: 00:10:57Let's talk about the real world impacts because I think there's been a lot of ink spilled in a lot of discussions around, those other things. But, but what I want to hear from you as someone who manages a ton of spandex and works in the industry and, and has to deal with this day in day out.Let's talk through the world impacts of, of, of how this is impacting the apps that you work with and what you've seen kind of in the broader industry. I thought it was interesting before we jumped on the, on the, and started recording, you actually said, you were expecting a crazier summer, so let's just start with that.So you're not quite seeing the disruption you initially expected. Is that, am I over reading that.Shamanth: 00:11:42I don't want to be grand standing here, but I certainly was for worse. and I don't want to jinx this, but suddenly that couple of advertisers really all right, that actually crying.But I talk about the mechanics that may have contributed to that further on, but, I certainly was prepared for far, far, far worse.I would say.David: 00:12:07Yeah. So, so what are you seeing? I mean,Shamanth: 00:12:10Yeah. David: 00:12:10And then one of the things you you've mentioned before is that you are seeing some shift to Android. Tell me about that, shift to Android spend. And is that in certain categories across the board? Shamanth: 00:12:21I think it's across the board. I think it's much more so in gaming. and if you look at a bunch of MMP boats or the estimates, the, shift to about iOS. Yeah, about 30 to 40%. I think that sounds like a realistic range. Obviously there's some verticals that are hit much, much harder, right. yeah.Definitely. I think there's a lot of sped shifting to ad drive. I would attribute some of that to the fact that. Tracking is broken, but you know, oh, I hate to see a, this, like a mother spoke to the work with, and the, also the advice and I've just stopped you. You're like, oh my God. My CPA is a boated by Facebook is terrible because Facebook's not tracking anything.And then when we look at the blended numbers, Basically the money they make and the trials to get and the subscriptions get, which is exactly what I mean by it. Not being as as I expected. You know, look at the iTunes dashboards,Just go crashing down, which is what I was afraid would happen. Right. and that, that has not happened. but what is real and true is like I said, tracking is broken, even if not right. I'm tracking to just grow congested because apple has a concept of privacy threshold. which basically means, if, campaign.Does not have minimum number of stops or purchases. Apple is going to show they report all installed. But, but the report very few purchases. What that means is you are a casual game, our social casino app that has Costco, set it up 150 to $200, is not uncommon for these. each campaign, if you're running $500 a day per campaign, you get two patches.So for people, campaign would just get obfuscated by the privacy threshold, which means if you're going to find a dollar at a campaign, you'll probably get it, but you're just not seeing them, which is better than a was that I'm not.David: 00:14:53Yeah, we We, are we back to the old days of, of half your advertising budget is working. You just don't know which half Shamanth: 00:15:01Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much true.Jacob: 00:15:05I was going to ask, so the pull back on the spend, like, is that, do you know where that's coming from along the chain? Is that, is that companies not being sure anymore and pulling back? Is it, is it agencies? Is it all long? Because at some point somebody has to, because I, it makes sense that like, one, we don't know how effective all this stuff was to begin with.Right. And so just losing the tracking doesn't necessarily mean it's less effective. It just means we don't know. And so it seems a little foolhardy to just dial back. Right. you know, especially if your business relies on it, but it seems like that's what most, at least some percentage of companies have done.They've they've pulled back just because they're not sure.Shamanth: 00:15:44Yeah.I think I would also say a lot of companies that have pulled back have had strong drive products. the couple of companies that I know that are doing better now, actually don't have very strong, I drive products. We don't have a choice, right? We don't have a choice. I obviously I don't fly that strong guy, but having a fall back means be good to take a little bit easy most time to Android.We figured out what is going on you get to your question. I think a lot of that's coming from companies, especially larger established companies that have. BI teams and reporting systems and dashboards on the creative level alive. We just don't have that in our book anymore. Jacob: 00:16:38And they're spending too much to be confident in just YoloShamanth: 00:16:41Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, David: 00:16:44Any specific trends on, on CPMs and cross portrayal or anything like that? As far as with the drop-in. Spend on iOS and the increase on Android has some of the performance on Iowa's not degrading been more to do with market dynamics change versus it actually just working as efficient.Shamanth: 00:17:07Yeah. you know, I try not to look at CPMs just because CPMs are very contingent on the kind of optimization you have to like, you know, and may, if you had value optimization, you be paying QPM segment to their roof and your CPMs on audio sense. I couldn't be higher than Instagram and Facebook and the metric.What I like to look at is really the CPA, but there's a cost, but. also has the capacity because of the privacy, especially for nowDavid: 00:17:41Right. Shamanth: 00:17:41Cost per trial, which I see being steady. Now to your question to your underlying question about, do I attribute back to the underlying market dynamics?Definitely. I think that the fact that there's less of competition, I do think has contributed to, the TPA being steady folks that have continued to do iOS. Definitely. I do think that the lesser competition has pleaded. David: 00:18:06That makes sense. let's talk a little bit, cause this is kind of our wheelhouse at, remedy CA obviously, nice shirt by the way, Jacob. Jacob: 00:18:16Is the original first ever revenue cat t-shirtDavid: 00:18:19Nice. how, how are subscription apps being impacted in, in what you've seen and then how is that different from, you know, games and other categories that you're working. Shamanth: 00:18:31Yeah. I would say subscription apps are hit much, much less odd than. A lot of games, again, I'm qualify. I don't want to sound like I'm grand standing because this is not like a body of Fiesta yet, but I think they're it better than folks who are really clear that I don't want to say clueless, but folks who are just struggling, you know, I talked about, you know, let's just say a hypothetical casual game or a social casino app that has a cost, the big user 150, if you get killed by the privacy test, short subscription app less impacted by that. just because, you know, again, you're off book which is a primary metric, nearly every subscription app, a squat Cheverly under $50, which means for the same $500 budget you getting, you get, you're getting 10 purchases.So. Deceptive as are that privacy threshold. Right. and the other factor that makes the whole ATD tank a lot easier for subscription naps is that nearly every subscription app, I know have 90%, lots of trials happen within the first 24 hours of install. What that means that in the ATP paradigm is A lot, not nearly all of that signal gets captured by the ATT algorithm, by a scab because a scab network workshop with system of timers, right. immediately after install a timer starts and after 54 Davos the timer reset, if y'all, and then the reset of the starts and, if no event has happened in that second time, A lot of the events that have happened first, get sent back to the, get sent back to APO.Not that event gets sent by them. And I'm probably definitely grossly simplifying the, some of this. and, I have a YouTube video that goes into the distance with the V2. People can check that out, but my point being the fact that of the trucks nearly all the trials happened within the first 24 hours.Make it relatively easier for our subscription apps to have to be captured by ad network. that's one of the reasons, lack of trust snaps do quite and obviously, you know, the most signal you give to the aggregate them, the better the I that is in bombs, right. you know, in the P PhET was if you gave most budgets, The better that I go to them, but obviously the algorithm would take you and everybody else that it would just do better.Now, obviously it's just taking your trial and doing much, much better. add onto the trend we've seen is that VAT based flows work a lot better for subscription apps than for games. again, there are challenges in execution, certainly. One of the things that they've seen that allows them relatively most after doing doc, that based lotion.Right. yeah, so I, I would say those are some of the factors that think contribute to subscription apps being better off than games and the post ATT world. again, not to grandstand, not to the, victory yet, but I think that that much, much better.Jacob: 00:22:14Yeah. There's, there's still, also just the dynamic with consumable games. Like, I don't know what retention curves really look like and stuff like this, but with subscriptions, you know, your acquisitions you're making today only effect, you know, a chunk of your revenue in the very short term versus, and you have this like recurring user base consumables.If your new users dry out really fast, like suddenly, you suddenly lost a lot of. Yeah. A lot of them, your business model doesn't work as well. Right. So, but wow, that's incredible that the, so on the CPIs, for like social casinos or whatever, which I imagine is just thought a high spend category, highly competitive space.So if they don't have like value attribution, What sexually driving the CPI so high? Like how do they know like what users to spend that much money on? Is it just, is it just, I guess click-based like, it is still like they can, they can proxy and know like people that click on those are part of that high value group or, or what, what, what keeps the, keeps the targeting good enough so that, you know, cause you can imagine if everything was perfectly anonymous, all CPAs would clicks would be the same, right.Across all apps.Shamanth: 00:23:21Yeah, yeah, yeah, At this point, I don't, would not say if you have a perfect answer or apps with high CPA, I think the best we have right now is true. Facebook reports, metrics, health platform reported metrics that directional, which means your CPA today would not be comparable to your page 80 TCPA, but because it's going to be very, very high, just because of the privacy picture that I just described, if you are getting maybe $500 on this 700 on that, that you just input campaign is better than campaign.But you're not impairing that job. That is your actual cost acquisition. So you're taking the CPA as a relative measure. I think that's true for the game it is for subscription apps. You're treating the CPA as a relative measure cabinet and campaign B or not so much as an absolute measure of unit economic.David: 00:24:20I think that's a great to transition into what's actually working right now. So we're talking about some of the impacts, but, Hinting at it's something that you've mentioned before, is that the best source of truth now is not. These specific return on ad spend calculation, but actually using blended metrics.So tell me a little bit about how, how you approach thinking about metrics as a source of truth versus, you know, the past, you know, five or six years where it's way more focused on. very detailed return on ad spend. And again, to our earlier point, even if that return on ad spend calculation, wasn't actually as accurate as it seemed, Jacob: 00:25:07Okay David: 00:25:08You were at least able to calculate it more accurately.Now it's like kinda everything's out the window. how are you approaching blended spend or blended metrics, to measure these things?Shamanth: 00:25:20Yeah, I would add the caveat that the blended metrics isn't like modern on you. Right? What old school? Offline advertising work. They were like, oh, this is how much I spend. This is how much I made, how they measured everything before the internet. And even with the internet, like of companies, we work.Even three ATT works at blended metrics because we know that a portion of our paid installs drive organics, we have a very, very clear correlation between updated organic. So we would be money on the table if we took into a concept paid users and not organics. So, you know, people have definitely done that.And that companies that have done it just to pursue growth. they're like, look, we need to grow as aggressively as possible. And the way to do that is to take lead and metrics to justify the growth rather than to shackle us. Jeff Pedro lab, back to your question. How, how how do we sort of look at this names will say, this campaign gave us, return on ad spend 20% cost per trial of $30.You're basically saying your overall marketing spent, gave you a $20 cost per trial across paid and organic and social and that you're spending on. Obviously, a lot of people to be uncomfortable with that because they're like, oh no, if I hadn't spent on marketing, I would have still gotten trials a day.And I'm giving credit to marketing for that. And, you know, I, I don't have a direct answer to that, but I think the answer really is. Would you want to be, would you want that's helpful and has to get crew or would you. And model that's accurate, but isn't having you grow. not going to claim I have an answer to that one, but, yeah.So basically looking at your total number of trials and your total spend. obviously this calculation becomes scarier. you have multiple chats, Yeah. If you're running Google, Facebook snap, and multiple ad networks, then you're like, oh, you know, one of the ad networks probably performed badly, but my total blender not change all that much because my other channels, 10% of time stops, but there are challenges, especially at collage level spend, but is very solid source of truth, especially for smaller advertisers who may be on a handful of channels.Here, I guess it's what you see in the back. David: 00:28:19And, you also mentioned that, people, do you, you mentioned web flows are working really well. And I assume what you meant by that is sending people from an ad into, onto the web instead of onto the app store, which is, it's really fascinating to me on multiple levels because. You know, the app stores have always been this black box where you put a certain number of, of clicks into it.Then, you know, you see the end result, but you don't see any of the steps in between. I mean, you have some basic metrics with app store, analytics and stuff. but with the web, I would imagine that that gives you a more direct. Trackable, link from somebody who, sees an ad to then actually kind of what they're doing on your website.So, but then ultimately I've talked to a lot of developers who talk about how on the web, their conversions are actually quite a bit lower in the app because Apple's made it so easy to use an app purchase. So, but it seems like maybe there is somewhat of a balance. There is that maybe you lose fewer people.From having to jump through those hoops of the app before they even get to the onboarding before they can be shown, you know, the value proposition and then being, you know, shown a subscription, page or whatever it is. what have you seen working in regard to web flows and then, and specifically for subscription? Shamanth: 00:29:53Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I've certainly seen a lot of success bar description apps that have adopted web most, a couple of apps have up 15 month on month group to ATT. not to have typical, revert, but it's that's happened. I think a couple of elements, you know, I think it's, what's most important is to make sure that it's right and there's a couple of possible lows.I think it's important to pick to which one is right. And really, and I think one flow could be showing that. A user goes to a landing page, which is basically like a B2B ought to be, to see that the page on the web and what you would get for a And you have a link that accept call to call to action on the landing pages, go to the app store.So a lot of that experience, but just, and try to explain it's happens on the app store, the web page. I actually does the job of telling the user on the product. And it's my hypothesis that this actually works well because Yvette page can do a much, much better job of selling than the app store can, while still making it clear that this is an app, and while actual conversion happens within the app itself, but, similar, a different flow that's very comparable would be take an ad, take a user from an ad to a landing page where users have to input that.Which again, get, use, it makes it makes it clear to the user that this is an app. is a mobile experience. User gets a text message and use assigned top work. and when they click on the text message, get to go to the app store and download the app. Right. Again, another model could be a user clicks on an ad, to an article or a content page, which is what you would see if you had a Double-A or a printed article or a content page to not store.And I can, the last one I can do, the more complex no is just to have onboard them on the web. basically take them to a webpage and they And, hopefully so I can make the purchase on the web. It mitigates your favorite petty, to be honest, the hottest and most strict food resource intensive.And really it's my recommendation that you put you that back after you put you in one of the best that I recommended, because you don't want to invest a kind of engineering and development time and bending, don't even know that the flow is going to work for you. so I would recommend just testing the web landing pages first then onboarding stuff.But, I think those are most important models that we see work. Somebody else. I think that's also very, very critical. think a lot of people, when they look at a lot of advertisers, I know that have started on the web for the first time. We're like, oh, Put together this nice landing page that looks like our homepage, on our website and just put it out there.Okay.Let's, you're being very intentional about what value propositions to touch on Actually out of your landing page. And we have a structure that we use now. most important, part and value proposition and that's social proof then your most important emotional benefits then. I think the most successful advertisers we work with are very, very intentional about what that, that page is looking like.And they also tested their athlete. I think it elements are very, very critical to making theDavid: 00:33:59Yeah.That's really smart. And I hadn't thought of it quite that way about how, yeah. And that was, I was talking with the apps are being the black box is you're just sending somebody, hoping they look at the screenshots, hoping the icon resonates with them, hoping the title and subtitle are meaningful, but when you send them to the web, it's not just about them right.To subscribe on the web, but it's actually just. Having a better opportunity to communicate the value prop so that by the time they get to the app store, they are, they have a much higher, They have a higher, they're just more likely to actually take action by the time they do get to the app store.Does that makes a lot of sense?Jacob: 00:34:39Tells you a lot about the quality of like the app store as a sales pitch. Right? I mean, but I guess when you're like looking at a, you know, you're trying to differentiate, right, and there's only so much, you can communicate in a block of text and then a bunch of screenshots. Right. And you've seen so much.Data shoved into the screenshots on asking LAMSTAR right. They're not screenshots. Right. They're like deck.David: 00:35:00Billboards Shamanth: 00:35:01Yeah.Yeah. I also think another reason why the app store works so well, pre with Facebook would just show ads to users to install other subscription apps. So if you send them directly to the after, they're almost pretty qualified. case anymore. So I think that absolutely level the field a lot.Jacob: 00:35:27Yeah.It's, it's, it's a tough, skill set though, for a lot of developers because they don't often have web experience internally. I think, I think I'm, I hear so much, like people get so obsessed about the 30%. and they want to jump straight to that last one. You mentioned about building a whole online purchasing thing, which like, you know, Stripe's pretty easy to use.Like it's, it's, you know, it's not that much more work than building a landing page, but you have to remember. okay. Management. So now you got to have a link for somebody who can go and cancel that thing. Now you also have to worry about taxes, Stripe. Doesn't like collect a tax information for you already.You have to, you know, then synchronize that with your backend. And, you know, if you're using revenue, casing grants with us or whatever, but you got to manage all that too. a lot of complexity, for 30%. Right. And when you're just trying to, you know, all of these things can find incremental. But like, as you're saying, it's important to put them in the right order or you can end up a lot of and money.Shamanth: 00:36:28Yeah, yeah. David: 00:36:30Well, I did want to, to move on to the, the, future. So we, we've kind of gotten through the first couple of months of these, this rough patch in or into this, era of, of mobile advertising. Are there any things that you're seeing that are especially promising. the future is the future.Everything we've been discussing so far of just of your advertising works and 50% doesn't mean you're never going to know which, do you, or are there some technologies coming online or some approaches that are just going to take time to of work out.Shamanth: 00:37:12Yeah, I think there's going to be some changes. I don't know. These are going to be shattering, in terms of changing. ATP. I think the most promising though, I would say, iOS 15 custom product pages, basically solve the problem of Jacob. didn't give it to you. How one tomorrow slide deck and everybody sees the same tag and Astro does a terrible job of sending a user on.What the product is basically, the custom product pages can have up to 25 washes off your app store. which means like if you're a, you know, wellness app, if let's just say you're a meditation app that has a meditation for sleep or anxiety and how to meditate. Separate landing page, so to speak on the app store, anxiety, meditation, right.And you can send, get a unique URL for each of these. you're going to have ad for sleep, going to an app store for each sleep for anxiety going to an app. So for anxiety I can, that can help. I just don't think it's going to have too much on the measurement front. obviously.Actual execution is still unclear. The announcements out. Definitely one of the big changes I would take that's coming with 15. The other one would just be that, advertisers are going to be receiving post-docs, which is huge, at least in ensuring of the advertising data so far, completely bonkers right now.Networks like Facebook snap, everybody get your post back from ASCAP network, but you have advertiser you as an advertiser. Which means you basically take the word for it. I do know for a fact that has actually changed values. I don't want to call it malicious because the conversion value was no.And to change it to zero, the problem is that knowledge will have very, very different meanings. You don't mean install. not mean to install happen, and there's no value. know that they did that change. I don't have that company to do it. but my point is, and Google, Google explicitly say we are going to use model conversion.So you basically take out what bird app Facebook face tapping data is accurate. Everything underneath it's modeled, means take out all of this is because the postdoc goes to the metroplex, but not the avatar. if the post that goes to the advertiser, you can add the very least verified that tell me the truth, which bonkers? I think David, you imagining, until all the time, you, you just have to think that, oh, back onto words for it even PhET right.I think That's going to be a big, big change, even though a lot of that will happen under the hood. And I say advertisers for the back majority of advertisers, going to do, they're receiving a Okta. Uh post-bacc but I think that's going to be a big deal, but, I think those are the big changes, the custom product pages and the post-bac to advertisers the tree and the intent of the future.In many ways, I do think it's going to be back to 2013 or 2014. I think I had talked about how. A number of installs and to be held that certain percentages, knew that each of them would convert to Jacob: 00:40:59Okay Shamanth: 00:41:00have a digital subscription. So they the cloud, but think it's going to be a very similar world. We are going to be, you're going to have to be more comfortable making decisions based off of incomplete data.But I do see that thing. David: 00:41:15One of the things I've been hearing a lot about since, since apple announced. The last year is incrementality testing. So systematically on and off, you know, so if you're advertising, I mean, obviously this would be a tool for, for larger apps, but if you're advertising across Facebook, Google snap, TOK, and you know, other mobile DSP.You know, systematically moving spend around and then measuring the difference or even turning spend off in certain channels and increasing spend in other channels. you seen that work? and are you, excited about the potential, of having tools in this space? do you think incrementality testing is a bit over-hyped.Shamanth: 00:42:02Any recommendation like incrementality? I think one caveat that a lot of people miss. That it's useful. What a very, very tiny fraction of advertisers, David, like you said, if. Like all the society building networks, multiple DSPs, ad networks, instrumentalists TV. Yes, absolutely. You know, you should use incrementality because there's just no way you're going to find out if this is going to work incrementality and, media mix modeling.You want to use both of them had an ad to make that work. But I would say the kinds of advertisers who need like this are a very tiny fraction. So the vast majority of advertisers, even the advertisers who are on four to five channels, even advertisers who spend those six tickets in a monthly spend, I don't think testing is going to be, Betty has just because Todd, you know, it's, it just becomes imprecise.Volumes of data. You need a critical mass of data for to be useful. right. I think it's a very similar thing that began X models, right? You need anomalous, anomalous budgets to dose to be useful and helpful. So I do take, these are great. I think the fact that they're not an antidote to all of the havoc that has, about the applicable to our tiny Sheila David: 00:43:39That makes sense. And then if, if you're only advertising on Google or only advertising and Facebook are only advertising on the two of them, they're, they're essentially doing some level of incrementality testing for you right there. Measuring the performance of this campaign against that campaign.And they're up depending on the results that they seem to be seeing. So there's some of that's kind of already covered if you're using those platforms, as your primary sources, Another thing I wanted to get your thoughts on was experimentation with other forms of advertising. I you're, you're very focused, currently on, on, you know, paid user acquisition and I don't think that's going away.And I think for, you know, for a lot of apps that is going to be the, the, the best, most reliable way to continue scaling even without accurate measurement. But have you seen any other. pushes with any of your customers, to work on, on, on different styles of advertising, different, approaches to marketing that are being successful.And do you see their kind of more incentive to try more things these days?Shamanth: 00:44:50No, I spoke about web, and I think there's definitely much, much stronger interest in that campaign than even six months ago. Larger budgets, definitely stronger interest. I would, again, like with the extra mentality, I would say shut on smaller budgets, I do not recommend experimenting.I do not recommend diversifying, but certainly have larger budgets. I would also say that are worth spending in the tens of millions, budgets like that have the, even like millions a month. Uh there's some, these other larger studios. They have already been on influencers that wasn't even advertised on TV, none of this would be new to them.Yeah, so I, I don't, I bet anything radically new that.David: 00:45:42Yeah. And then that kind of gets back to the old tried and true. You just got to build a good product and work on your monetization, and kind of get back to the basics of, of product as well. Jacob: 00:45:54I think sometimes these, these overly complex, overly targeted systems, especially for people who make software contend to be busy boxes, right. They can tend to be, can tend to be things that. Can attract our attention and, and ‘cause, they, they seem very like, you know, oh, we can get it right.And really make it scale. And then some people have right. It's possible. But 80/20, I think for a lot of people out there, like just, just, just focus on the fundamentals and you can go pretty far. And then as time comes, you can layer in the more, you know,Shamanth: 00:46:27Yeah.Yeah, yeah, yeah, and like I said, at a certain level of care, influencers, all of this becomes much, much more meaningful. and like I said, that's certainly more meaningful already. Yeah. You don't need too much. David: 00:46:42Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. it was great chatting with you and yeah. lot of insight there on, on what's working and what, how to think about things in this, this new world of mobile marketing. you know, as we wrap up, is there any last thoughts to include links to, where people can find you on, on, on the web and to RocketShip HQ and whatnot.Anything else you want to add?Shamanth: 00:47:09No. Though, like I said, guess this not bad as it reported to be. They're raised to mitigate the worse-case scenarios, that helped me out, been able to share. so, hopefully they'll come out on the other side of all of this without too much craziness.Jacob: 00:47:35I think people are going to keep using apps. That's my, that's my prediction.David: 00:47:40And I think people are going to keep advertising apps. Shamanth: 00:47:43Yeah, yeah, It's the, how that's going to have to change and it has to change dramatically and there's no getting around that.David: 00:47:51Well, it was great chatting with you and, we'll talk again soon. Shamanth: 00:47:55Absolutely.Jacob: 00:47:57Thank you.David: 00:47:58Good bye.
Michele Hansen 00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by Oh Dear, the website monitoring app. As an Oh Dear customer myself, I particularly like how easy it is to make SLA reports with Oh Dear. They're professional and sleek, and they make it easier for us to service enterprise customers. And I actually requested this feature myself last year, and I'm so delighted with how open to suggestions they are. You can sign up for a free 10 day trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app. Colleen Schnettler 00:32So Michele, how has your week been? Michele Hansen 00:34It's good. It's good. You know, I was, I was doing some writing this morning, which is funny, I've realized it's, like, my reward work. Like, you know, when I get through all the other stuff, like it's like, oh, like, now I have some writing time. And, Colleen Schnettler 00:47That's amazing because I remember being in high school and, like, English, like whenever I had to write a paper, it was literally my least favorite thing to do. So I find that fascinating that, for you, writing is your reward work. Michele Hansen 00:59I, five paragraph essays are, I don't think anyone looks forward to writing those. Like, this is very different than, than that. Um, but so I was, I was writing and I started thinking about this framework that I know we've talked about, and it occurred to me that I have a very tangible example of that. Colleen Schnettler 01:20Which framework? StoryBrand, or something else? Michele Hansen 01:22No, so it's a Marty Cagan framework. Colleen Schnettler 01:25Okay. Michele Hansen 01:26So, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna back up first. So, there's this misconception, I think that people sometimes have or fear about customer research that if they start listening to their customers, then they have to do everything the customers ask them for. And they're basically, like, giving up control over the vision of the product to the customer. Colleen Schnettler 01:47Okay. Michele Hansen 01:48And that's not true, right? Like, you'll always have to weigh it against, um, what makes sense for you to do. And so, there's this one framework that I particularly like that was developed by Marty Cagan, who is kind of, like, the the product guru, like, he's the head of this consultancy called the Silicon Valley Product Group. Like, he is like the product guy, and in order for a product to be successful, he says how it needs to be valuable, viable, usable, and feasible. Colleen Schnettler 02:26Wow, valuable, viable, usable, feasible. Michele Hansen 02:30So let's, let's break it down a little bit. So first, it has to be valuable for the customer. Like, it has to be something that is, you know, accomplishes something for them and helps them do something, right. Because if it's something that doesn't help them do something that they would want to do, then they wouldn't use it. Like, the example I kind of think of for this is what was that startup that would, like, squeeze a bag of pureed fruit for you? Like Juicero, or, like, it was some, like, they raised like billions of dollars or whatever, for, like, a smoothie machine, and everyone is like, why? Like, not really very valuable to people. Colleen Schnettler 03:04Right. Okay. Michele Hansen 03:05I'm sure they had wonderful ideas, and they were great people. It has to be viable, which means it has to be, like, commercially viable, like people have to be willing to pay for it. So like, I could make something that's super awesome and useful, but if no one is willing to pay for it, then it's not a viable product, right? Like, if I'm solving a problem that no one experiences painfully enough to, to pay someone to solve it, then it's not going to work out. Colleen Schnettler 03:30Okay. Michele Hansen 03:30It has to be usable, which may be the easiest of all these words, to understand that, like, they have to be able to figure out how to use it. So, Colleen Schnettler 03:39Okay. Michele Hansen 03:39You may have heard this in the context of usability testing, which is basically, like, if I make a website that you can do something on, but you can't actually figure out how to do that, and it's confusing, then it doesn't matter if what the product does is something that's valuable to you. If you can't figure out how to do it, you're going to move on to something else. Colleen Schnettler 03:57Right. Michele Hansen 03:57And then the last one is it has to be feasible, like, it has to be possible for you to produce this product. So, So this would be the equivalent of being, me being like, Colleen, I really need a spaceship. And you being like, that's awesome. I can see that's valuable for you. Maybe you have the ability to pay for that. I don't, but you know, let's go with it. I can build it in a way that, that you can use it. You know, you're an engineer, right? Any kind of engineer can build any kind of thing, right? Colleen Schnettler 04:05Oh, okay. Sure. Michele Hansen 04:25Yeah. Like, you could build a bridge. No, I'm, I'm, for all the certified engineers out there, I'm aware that they're not all transferable. But it wouldn't be feasible for you to build that. Colleen Schnettler 04:37Right. Michele Hansen 04:38So, so this framework of valuable, viable, usable and feasible is something that I always keep in mind when we're getting feedback from people because you don't necessarily act on every single problem and every piece of advice that you hear, and, like, and that's okay. Colleen Schnettler 04:55Yeah, okay. Michele Hansen 04:56And so, a specific example of this that relates to the book and to something we have been talking about quite a bit is consulting and whether I should do consulting related to the book. Colleen Schnettler 05:10Right. Michele Hansen 05:10It's something we've talked about, and I've gotten quite a few requests from people about. And, you know, as I thought about it, okay, so clearly, this would be valuable for people. Like they, they feel like they need help getting started with understanding their customers. They seem to be willing to pay for it. I don't know what that would be, like, I, granted I haven't told anyone, like, cool, here's, you know, an invoice for, I don't know, $500 for a 30 minute conversation, or whatever it is people charge. But like, people seem to be willing to pay for this, and they've told me that they pay other people for this. So there's clearly an ability and desire to pay there. And then usable, like, I feel like I would be able to deliver it in a way that would make it useful for them. But it's not feasible. Colleen Schnettler 05:56Why not? Michele Hansen 05:56Time zones. Colleen Schnettler 05:59Oh. Michele Hansen 06:00And also the fact that I already have a business that I need to keep going. So I, like, I already have a pressure on my time in that regard. But I basically only have one hour of decent overlap with the US, which is from, Colleen Schnettler 06:15One hour? Michele Hansen 06:16From nine to 10am Eastern. Colleen Schnettler 06:19Wow, because what time is 9 to 10am Eastern in Denmark. Michele Hansen 06:22So that's 3pm. So our daughter gets out of school at 3. So, Colleen Schnettler 06:26Yeah. Michele Hansen 06:26Making anything else work requires a huge amount of schedule gymnastics for me. And I already have customers that I need to have, you know, calls with anyway. Like, and, and so if I were to do consulting, then I would have to say that I could, like, do it for everybody except North America, which totally doesn't make sense because, you know, if you assume that the audience for this podcast is a pretty good overlap with the people who might want me to consult for them, that'd be like, 80% of the audience would not be eligible, and people might find that a bit off-putting, or frustrating. But like, I mean, I just can't do it. Like I can, you know, 8am Eastern is a great time for me, because that's 2pm here, but like, that's, that's a bit early for, for business conversations. And most of the time, like, if I have to have a call with California, like, it ends up being at 9 o'clock my time. And, Colleen Schnettler 07:21Yeah, that's rough. Michele Hansen 07:22Even 9am is a bit early. Like, I've worked in companies that, like, had like, a basically an official, like, no meetings before 10, but really not before 11 rule. Like, if you got a 9am meeting, I was like God, like why are you punishing them? So it's just, it's not feasible for me. So, Colleen Schnettler 07:42Okay. Michele Hansen 07:42Maybe it will be in, you know, 15 years when I don't have a child at home, and I can, you know, just blow through dinner time, like, and work and like, honestly, it's probably not gonna be good for my work-life balance, like, but it's, it's simply not feasible. Colleen Schnettler 07:59Is this something you want to do? Or is this just a, like, convenient reason not to do it because you already don't want to do it? Michele Hansen 08:07I was trying to dive into like, why the thought of it was even, like, immediate, no in my head. Colleen Schnettler 08:14Right. Okay. Michele Hansen 08:15And I think that was kind of, and like, the reason was like, I don't have time for that. And then it's like, Colleen Schnettler 08:20Yeah. Michele Hansen 08:21But I do, like, I, I have time to work already, so why wouldn't that fit into my existing work time? And it's because it wouldn't happen during the work time. Now, I could be like, oh, I'll just consult for people in the UK, but like, I, like, most of my network is in the US anyway. So, and I think it's just easier just to say no to everything. But again, as we kind of talked about, like, I could always do this 5 or 10 years from now. And people have asked me about courses too, which is easier to make work across time zones, but I'm not really a natural teacher. So I admit that that, like, that kind of scares me because I feel like I would not only have to learn, like, how to create a course. But I would have to learn like, how to teach, which is, you know, a skill set that people to go to school for for four to six years to learn. Like it's not a, it's not an insignificant thing to learn how to do. Colleen Schnettler 09:21Yeah, well, you already have a lot of demands on your time. So, I don't know that adding consulting would be good for you even if you were in the US. Michele Hansen 09:29Yeah, that's true. I mean, you actually used to have a course, right? Or you were starting one, or? Colleen Schnettler 09:34Haha, yeah. So one of my many, many business ideas. I was going to do a course, and holy cow, it was so much more work than I anticipated. So I decided not to do it, and that was a good decision. Michele Hansen 09:52I think when we first met you were, like, getting that course going. Colleen Schnettler 09:58Yeah, I think I did a couple videos. I mean, my, my idea had been to do Ruby on Rails course for beginners and try to, like, incorporate some more advanced topics, so like an advanced beginner course. But, and I know some people have a lot of success with courses, but you know, I started doing it, and it was just like, because I was trying to do a video course. It was a tremendous amount of work, and I found that I, this, this was years ago, too, right? This was a couple years ago, and I didn't have any audience or network so to speak of, and I think to be successful with a course, a couple of things have to happen. You either have to have the right course at the right time, so you're releasing a course on something that is new and hot, and everyone wants to learn about, or I think you have to have a really well-established network and audience, and I had neither of those things at that time. And, and also, you know, people talk about being on, like, the content treadmill, so the thing about if your business, if your primary business is a subscription video service, or, you know, subscription courses, like, you have to constantly be producing content, and that wasn't really something that I wanted to do either. So yeah, the course was just, the video course was just so much work, like, the editing and the trying not to talk over myself, and the, oh, my goodness. So it wasn't a good fit for me. Not saying it wouldn't be a good fit for you in the future. I mean, there's tons of opportunity there. Michele Hansen 11:33I'm curious, how long did you work on that course from like, when you had the idea to when you ended up giving up on it? Colleen Schnettler 11:41I don't remember. So, I started with a couple intro videos, and I mean, we're talking like 10, 15 minute videos, and they would take me hours. That was the first problem. And then I actually was going to do it with a friend who has a really successful Ruby on Rails template. So he and I recorded, I mean, Michele, we must've recorded 10 hours of video. Michele Hansen 12:03Wow. Colleen Schnettler 12:03Yeah. I mean, we have, I still have it. So yeah, for the Rails listeners, it's the guy who developed Bullet Train. And Bullet Train is like a really opinionated, Ruby on Rails, SaaS kind of template builder to start with. And he's been doing this a lot longer than I have, and so I really was fascinated in terms of like, there's some more advanced concepts that you never really get in the material that's out there. And a big one he feels really strongly about is domain modeling, and like, how to do your domain modeling. And this is a thing, I found that as a developer, like, there's tons of entry level courses, and as soon as you get past entry level, it gets harder. Like, when you get to the point where you can't Google the answer for what you're trying to figure out, there isn't a lot. It's more about, like, learning and problem solving, and there aren't a lot of courses or examples or things that can, like, draw you in to these more advanced concepts. So, Andrew and I had talked about doing a course, like, kind of teaching people about domain modeling, which was really cool, because I really love the way he's done it in Bullet Train. And I've worked on a lot of different apps, and typically, it's kind of a mess, right? Like, because you don't, you don't really think big term. I mean, things grow and things, and things evolve, and that's the nature of software, whereas Andrew's, the way he tries to handle it is it's top down, like you know, you don't think you're going to need teams and users, and, you know, join tables, but you should start there. Michele Hansen 13:36We thought that. Retrofitting that later is painful to the point where we haven't, like, fully, like, we, like, have done it, and we need to do more of it. And it's, oh god, just retrofitting, like, user access controls like that is, that's like one of those things, if I can fly back to me eight years ago when we were building this, it's like, just build that in from the beginning. People are gonna want a billing user. They're gonna, you know. Colleen Schnettler 14:06Right, that's literally exactly what, what it was about. It was about that, because when you start you don't care, right? Or you don't think about it, because you're like, I, I don't need to get that complicated. But if you start from the beginning with that framework, when you're where you guys are, it's so much easier to retrofit in all that stuff because it's already there. Anyway, now that I'm talking about it, I'm getting excited about it again. Michele Hansen 14:27I can tell. Like, you really do see a void for this. But I think, like, I think it's important to bring up though, because you, like, you tried a bunch of stuff before you found something that's kind of working, right. Like I mean, we like we launched stuff that didn't work. Like, I think people kind of you know, you listen to like podcasts like this or whatnot, and you're like, wow, like, this person has everything figured out and they're just amazing, and there's something about them that like makes them what they make successful or whatever, and I'm like, no dude, like we've had stuff that failed. Like, that's normal. Like, Colleen Schnettler 15:04Yeah. Michele Hansen 15:04I don't think there's anybody out there who has launched something successfully and not had 10 other things behind it that were either total duds or like just completely, you know, never got off the ground or were soundly rejected, or panned on Reddit, which one of ours was. But anyway, speaking of remotely successful products, Colleen, is it time for our weekly numbers update on Simple File Upload? Colleen Schnettler 15:35Your weekly update for Simple File Upload. Yes, so this week, I crossed the 1000 MRR mark. Michele Hansen 15:42We have totally buried the lead. Colleen Schnettler 15:47I know right. Michele Hansen 15:47Oh my god! Colleen Schnettler 15:49I'm super, I mean, it was really exciting. Michele Hansen 15:53Oh, my gosh, yes. Colleen Schnettler 15:55Yeah. So that really makes it feel like a real business, if you will. I mean, $1,000 that's like real money. Michele Hansen 16:02That is real money. Colleen Schnettler 16:04Yeah, like, even after I pay all my you know, I do have the, the hosting fees, and the, Heroku takes a cut. But yeah, it's really exciting. Michele Hansen 16:13Wait. So I think last time we, like, really dove into the numbers on it. Your costs of what, you know, what we would sort of call in business jargon the cost of goods sold, which is like, you know, servers and everything that you have to pay for in order to make the app run, that was like $200 a month, and you thought it would be pretty, like consistent. Colleen Schnettler 16:41Yeah. Michele Hansen 16:42Are you, is that still true? Colleen Schnettler 16:44Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's still true. Now I do, so it's, that's, that's probably an estimate of all the, the fees and like you said, server hosting storage. And then Heroku takes 30%, because I'm in their marketplace, much like the App Store. I know, it really hurts, like, you're just like, oh, ouch. But, I know, but you know what, I mean, I still will bang the drum, or whatever that phrase is on this, for ,launching this in a marketplace was just such a good idea because if I look at the users I have coming from the open internet, versus the users I have coming from Heroku, like, far and above, the majority of my paid users are coming from Heroku. Michele Hansen 17:27So, so if your cost of goods sold is $200 a month, and for purposes of this, we're pulling out that processing or like, you know, sort of marketplace fee, which is 30%, so then basically your margin is like, $500 a month. Does that sound right? Colleen Schnettler 17:47Yes. Michele Hansen 17:48Wow. Colleen Schnettler 17:49Yeah. Michele Hansen 17:50That's pretty good. Colleen Schnettler 17:52I know, I was pretty excited. Um, yeah. So it's, it's good. Michele Hansen 17:58That's really interesting for when, you know, if you're able to get to a point, eventually, where you're selling outside of Heroku, like, that, you know, if we were to assume an 80% margin like that, that's pretty good. That's where a lot of software businesses are. So it's, I mean, it sounds like your, your fundamentals are pointing in the right direction. Colleen Schnettler 18:22Yeah, I think, I mean, we've talked a lot about, I think last week I was a little frustrated because I still can't really identify my ideal customer, or people who are even using it. But I think one of the huge benefits of being in this marketplace is people are signing up. So the more people I get signing up, the more chances I have that someone will actually, that I'll be able to talk to people and kind of figure out my value proposition. I'm finding a lot of people, a lot more people are finding me on the internet. So I'm getting a lot more signups that bounce when they see you have to have a credit card upfront. But I mean, on the, on the plus side, that means there's clearly a demand for this. This is clearly a thing people want because a lot of people are signing up. Now, will a lot of people pay for it is always the, the, you know, the thing you're trying to figure out, but I'm seeing quite a lot of people putting in their email address, putting in their email addresses on my non-Heroku site. Michele Hansen 19:23How, like, upfront does your non-Heroku site make it that people have to put in a credit card for the free trial? Colleen Schnettler 19:30So the way it works right now is you sign up and then, then you go to the pricing page. And then you click the button to say sign up for this plan, and then you have to put a credit card in. Michele Hansen 19:42But like, on the landing page itself, does it make it clear that a credit card is required for the trial? Colleen Schnettler 19:48No. Michele Hansen 19:50You should probably do that. Colleen Schnettler 19:52Yeah, I thought about that. But I was looking at other people's landing pages and no one really, like, that doesn't seem to be a thing people do. Cuz it feels, like, where would you put it? In like, small print under free, free trial? Free 7 day trial, credit card required for sign up? Michele Hansen 20:07Yeah, I, you know, something that I noticed with that is that when somebody has a free trial and no credit card is required, they always say that. Colleen Schnettler 20:17Right, no credit card required, right. But when they do require a credit card, they don't say anything. Michele Hansen 20:23Yeah. And that, that tells me something. Now, Colleen Schnettler 20:27Yeah, no one wants to pay, Michele Hansen 20:28A lot of big companies like, they'll you know, if you, if you are a marketing person who is incentivized for email signups, then yeah, you're gonna want to hide the fact that a credit card is required because that's how you hit your metrics. But also, the incentive should be redesigned in that case. But I think it's worth at least having that somewhere on the landing page, because as you said, then people are bouncing, and so there's no point in you having this pile of email addresses from people who aren't going to pay for it unless you want it to try to monetize them some other way. But that doesn't really seem to be like something you want to do, and also with, like GDPR, and CCPA and all of those privacy acronyms, like, it could be, you know, a liability for you. Colleen Schnettler 21:21Yeah, I was thinking about it, because I've seen so many signups recently. So I think that's a, but I, the reason I didn't put it was because I've never seen it. And I was like, is that a huge turnoff to be like, credit card required for signup. But I agree, I'm not doing anything with those email addresses. I mean, in the future, maybe I can remove it and try a different kind of, you know, when I have more time or a little bit bigger, and maybe try to learn more about those people. But at this point, it doesn't do any good, like, I'm not keeping their email addresses or anything. So I'm just seeing that there's a lot of traffic. Michele Hansen 21:54I wonder how, so I signed up for Savvy Cow recently, speaking of all of my timezone issues, like, I had to make this little redirect basically, so that when people request to have a meeting with me, if the browser detects their timezone, and then it sends them to the calendar based on their timezone, because like, I'll only do those 9pm calls for you know, people on the west coast, for example. But, so I signed up for for Savvy Cow, and they have a 7 day free trial with a credit card required, and now I'm looking at their website to see how clear that was, because I remember that, like, I knew that it would be required, and like, that, they would just automatically charge me after that point. And I'm actually looking at their landing page. Oh, okay, actually, it just, it just, just say get started for free. Colleen Schnettler 22:48See, no, no one says that. Michele Hansen 22:50But maybe they, like, maybe isn't an automatic, maybe it was an email they sent me instead that, um, oh, okay. Okay, so here's how it works. So it says what you can, zero cost to create an account, but then once you're ready to start sharing your calendar links, then the one week free trial starts, and then that has automatic billing. Colleen Schnettler 23:12Where did you get that, in an email? Michele Hansen 23:14It's on their pricing page. Colleen Schnettler 23:16Okay, I'll look at that. That's probably a good idea. I like that, like, yeah, it's, it's free to create an account. But if you actually want to upload files, Michele Hansen 23:23Sure, you can give us your email address, but if you want to do anything, but I think that, you know that, that makes sense for like a product. Like this, where like, there, there is some amount of stuff that might need to happen before you actually use the products, like, people might need to have internal discussions or like, you know, with this, like, you have to kind of set it up, and there's also this positive effect, where, if you've done all of this work to get it set up, then you are more bought in to the product. Like, this is the approach that TurboTax uses. Like, I don't know, if you notice that they, Colleen Schnettler 23:55I know, I know. Michele Hansen 23:55They don't, they'll be like, well, it's free to file, but then it's you know, 19 or 29 or whatever. Colleen Schnettler 24:00It's free to do your taxes, Michele Hansen 24:01Whatever, but to actually file your state one, or to have us automatically send it to the IRS or whatever it is, like, Colleen Schnettler 24:08Yeah. Michele Hansen 24:09Then you have to pay for it. And all the people listening in other countries, like especially anyone in Denmark, where you can just file your taxes online, like for free and like, you know, you don't have Intuit, with this massive lobbying budget, making it complicated. Yeah, I mean, so so there's definitely some benefits to that kind of model, and I think as long as what you do, just like, making it really clear what that like, make it clear what's going to happen to people. Colleen Schnettler 24:41Yeah, I like the idea of putting it on the pricing page because I don't want it on my landing page because that's gonna look bad. But like, if you click sign up for a free trial, I like having another pricing page because again, it doesn't do anyone any good for, I don't care about your email address if you're not interested, and you are annoyed because you fill out the welcome to my thing form, and then you have to enter a credit card, and you felt you know, you didn't know. So, I, um, I like this idea. I think it's a good idea. Michele Hansen 25:06Yeah, I think, so your call to action, it says try it now, sign up for a free 30 day trial. Colleen Schnettler 25:13Yeah. Michele Hansen 25:14And I also wonder if, you know, changing out from like, sign up to be like, you know, start free trial or whatnot, like, because I think people really do grok the difference between free trial versus free tier. And, and I saw that when I scrolled all the way down, there's a free 30 day trial, but I don't actually see that above the fold on your site. And so I wonder if making it clear that it's free trial would help with that. Colleen Schnettler 25:46Okay. I like, I like changing it to start, start your trial or something. Michele Hansen 25:50Yeah. Because they're actually, there's no button either, like, right below the header. There's like, there should be a button there that's like, start your free trial. Colleen Schnettler 25:59Oh. Michele Hansen 26:00There's no call to action button. Colleen Schnettler 26:02Wait, below the header. Michele Hansen 26:04So it says add File Uploading to your app in minutes, like, integrate file uploads in your website, no service required, blah, blah, blah. Like, where's the button? Give me a button. Colleen Schnettler 26:15Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Michele Hansen 26:17But hey, while I'm looking at SimpleFileUpload.com, for anyone who is listening, there is a testimonial there.Yay. Colleen Schnettler 26:26Yay, I did. I got a testimonial up. Michele Hansen 26:31And it looks awesome. Colleen Schnettler 26:33Yeah. So I'm happy about that. Yeah, you're right. There should be a call to action button right here. Michele Hansen 26:39Tell me what to do, Colleen. Colleen Schnettler 26:41Oh, my gosh. See, this is, like, the stuff I don't know about. You're absolutely right. Michele Hansen 26:44Tell me to sign up. Colleen Schnettler 26:45Tell me to sign up, start trial now. Nice. Okay, I like it. Good point. Michele Hansen 26:52And I guess, yeah, you just want to like work on that wording because like, as you know, the Savvy Cow example, like, the trial doesn't start until you actually do something. And so it's like, does the trial start like, right from the time they sign up? Or just, you know, wherever you can, like, make it clear what's going to happen to people. Colleen Schnettler 27:09Yeah, so I think, so right now, if you click on sign up, it takes you to a nice signup page. But then after you hit the signup page, it takes you to the pricing page. I wonder if I should switch those since I'm going to require a credit card, and instead of taking you to the signup page before the pricing page, sign up, pricing page, which explains that you have to, you know, pay, not pay I'm sorry, that you have to enter your credit card and then a start trial button. Michele Hansen 27:45Okay, so I'm actually going through it right now. Colleen Schnettler 27:48Yeah, okay. Michele Hansen 27:49Um, so let's do it live. Okay. Colleen Schnettler 27:54Usability testing live with Michele. Michele Hansen 27:57F it will do it live. Okay. So, select your plan, try it out with a 30 day free trial, up, upgrade or cancel at any time. Okay. Colleen Schnettler 28:06So if you go back, though, if you start from the homepage, okay, if you go to Home. So go to home. Michele Hansen 28:10Home. And then sign up. Colleen Schnettler 28:12Sign up. Michele Hansen 28:13Yeah. So then it's just like a login screen. Colleen Schnettler 28:16Right. Michele Hansen 28:17Yeah, I wonder maybe, maybe you would, you could also experiment with when you click sign up, taking people to this pricing page, and then when they click start trial, then they create an account, and then they add a credit card and everything. Colleen Schnettler 28:35Yeah, I tend to wonder if that's a better workflow because again, I don't need to collect or want to collect information for people who don't want to put their credit card down. Michele Hansen 28:45Yeah. Colleen Schnettler 28:47So I think I'll do that. I like that. I like that idea. Yeah, and then they can go, if signup would take them to pricing, and then under where it says select your panel have something like, it's gonna be a seven day trial, but I'll fix that, try it out with a seven day trial credit. I mean, it sounds so bad, credit card required when you are ready to use the service or something. I don't know. I'll figure that out. Michele Hansen 29:07And I also noticed you have a 30 day money back guarantee. So a 30 day free trial, Colleen Schnettler 29:12Oh my gosh. Michele Hansen 29:12And a 30 day money back guarantee? No. Colleen Schnettler 29:15Okay. I do, but I shouldn't. Michele Hansen 29:17Yeah. Colleen Schnettler 29:17Cuz this is like, I need to change that. Oh, my gosh, it's so funny that you said that. Because basically, like, this, the framework for the SaaS is built off of the Bullet Train app, which I mentioned earlier that Andrew and I were going to make a course for, and this is just, like, their default wording. And I literally, like forgot to take it out. Michele Hansen 29:39Okay. Colleen Schnettler 29:40So I don't want to do that. I just, no one has asked for their money back. So that's good. Michele Hansen 29:44That's also a liability for you, so. Colleen Schnettler 29:47Yeah, no, I need to get, where did you see that? Michele Hansen 29:49When I clicked on start trial from the pricing page. Colleen Schnettler 29:53Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I need to change that. Michele Hansen 29:57Well, it sounds like you now have a lot of work on your plate. So, Colleen Schnettler 30:02Yeah. Michele Hansen 30:03I guess I should let you go. Colleen Schnettler 30:05Plenty of things to do. Yeah. Great. This is good, though. This is good. I haven't really thought through that onboarding workflow in a long time. So, I'm glad we took a look at it. Michele Hansen 30:15Awesome. Well, I guess that'll wrap us up for this week. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked this episode, please tweet about it or write us an iTunes review. That means a lot to us and, yeah, we'll talk to you next week.
Thessalonians 5:16-18,Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Psalm 100:4-5Shout for joy to the Lord, all the earth.2 Worship the Lord with gladness;come before him with joyful songs.3 Know that the Lord is God.It is he who made us, and we are his;we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise;give thanks to him and praise his name.5 For the Lord is good and his love endures forever;his faithfulness continues through all generations. Thanksgiving is...1. Attitude 2. Mark 3. Lifestyle Thessalonians 5:16-18,Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Reasons for Thanksgiving1. His Personhood: we give thanks for who He is. 2. His Promise: we give thanks for what He promises 3. His Providence: we give thanks for what He has done, is doing and will do. Why are we not thankful?Luke 17:11-1911Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance 13and called out in a loud voice, "Jesus, Master, have pity on us!"14When he saw them, he said, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed.15One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan. 17Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" 19Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well." 1. Self-centeredness 2. Forgetfulness 3. Faithlessness How can we stay thankful? 1. God-centeredness 2. Self-awareness 3. Faithfulness
James and Mikey break down the 2020 US Open and try to think of people OTHER than DJ and Jon Rahm to win....no easy task. The guys give you their betting advice, as well as advice to help in your tier-pools and Draft Kings lineups. TIME CODESFall US Open/Safeway Recap: 1:30Course Preview: 4:52Bets: 11:25Top10/20 market: 26:00Draft Kings PopLock&Drop: 31:25$6k Sleepers and lineup build: 47:15One and Done: 56:20Card Recap: 59:25
EnneaTalk Tuesday: The Reasons you Might Be Identifying as the Wrong Enneagram Type Welcome to another episode of EnneaTalk Tuesday! This week I cover the top 5 reasons you may be mistyped and how this can impact and inhibit your journey to growth and transformation. Listen to this week’s episode to see how you can identify if you have the wrong Enneagram number, why you might be identifying as the wrong type, and how to move forward and focus on discovering and implementing your true roadmap back to yourself. Using the Enneagram CorrectlyHave you taken an online Enneagram test and are frustrated that you are not seeing growth and results that you want? More than 50% of people who take the Enneagram test are mistyped. It’s important to know that while the Enneagram is one of the most important internal tools to self-discovery, if you are typed incorrectly, it can actually inhibit your journey: Without the right instruction manual, tools become useless. How Can You Be Mistyped?I use this episode to go over the five different reasons you may have identified as the wrong number and use my own type as an example for describing how subtypes can actually cause you to think you are something else. It is crucial to be open and willing, to not rush your own discovery process and explore further to ensure your type is accurate. The more willing you are for change, the more able you are to find the right number and begin the transformation you seek. Finding your right Enneagram typeIf you are wanting help discovering your correct Enneagram type, please reach out to me, ask questions, or send a DM on social media. I am here to help you find the best way to integrate this tool into your life so you can become the best and most healthy version of yourself. Interested in working with me?Your reviews matterIf this episode fell on your heart, it is important to please take a minute to share with friends, family, and those who may need to hear this message. If you can, please take the time to review and rate the podcast on Apple Podcasts! The more ratings and reviews there are, the easier it is for others to discover the show.Quick Access to Quotes:The Enneagram is one of the greatest self-exploration tools ever 0:20 A tool does no good if you don’t have the right instruction manual or if you are using the wrong tool for the wrong job. 1:00This isn’t going to happen through just a few questions, it really is an exploratory process 5:10 If you don’t get to the root of the patterns and problems, it’s just a matter of time until you go back 7:19Be willing to be all in with the discovery process. 14:15One of the most effective tools, when used properly, is the Enneagram but you must know how to use it properly. 14:36“The Enneagram is one of the greatest self-exploration tools ever.” :51 “50% of the time, the online Enneagram tests are inaccurate.” 1:48“If you think you have the right Enneagram number, yet you aren’t experiencing transformation, chances are you have the wrong type.” 2:25“A practitioner that is skilled, not only in the Enneagram but also has trauma work like I do, can accelerate your transformation with this tool.” 4:47“One reason you may be mistyped is that you are in a rinse and repeat cycle.” 5:17“You could be an overachiever because you truly believe that you had to do that in order to have love and worth” 6:24“You’re robbing yourself and the world of gifts and your calling every time you approach the enneagram trying to get a certain number.” 8:20“There are 9 basic Enneagram types, each of those 9 types has 3 subtypes, so there are actually 27 different personality types.” 10:35“Subtypes can change how a type is expressed.” 13:04“Don’t rush your discovery process, please be willing to explore your type further.” 13:20“The best way to integrate the Enneagram into your life is to have the right information first.” 15:05
http://bible.com/events/6837961 Corinthians 2:14-16 PNEUMA vs PSUCHE (verses 14-15)Paul speaks of two different individuals….One guided by pneuma…the spirit – verse 15One guided by psuche….the physical life (the appetites) – verse 14 THE MIND OF CHRIST (verse 16)The Spirit moves us from living a compartmentalized life through the mind of Christ.Having the mind of Christ means sharing in […]
http://bible.com/events/6837961 Corinthians 2:14-16 PNEUMA vs PSUCHE (verses 14-15)Paul speaks of two different individuals….One guided by pneuma…the spirit – verse 15One guided by psuche….the physical life (the appetites) – verse 14 THE MIND OF CHRIST (verse 16)The Spirit moves us from living a compartmentalized life through the mind of Christ.Having the mind of Christ means sharing in […]
It is so easy to point the finger at where we imagine the fault to lie. We often think of temptation as coming to us from “out there” somewhere, like a villain coming and knocking at our door to lure us away. We may be surprised by a couple of realities: We can't be tempted by something we don't want, and the surprising source of our temptations.James 1:13-15One of our #fhcTAKEAWAYS stated: How can you help someone learn to float in God's love and grace?We would love to hear your story! Please reach out to us directly from the FHC Mobile App. You can share by using the Media tab, and then - Podcast banner - use the text and email share buttons, or use one of the following:■ Text/Voicemail: 407-965-1607■ Email: email@example.com■ FHC Mobile App: Media Tab/Podcast Banner and Use Text and Email links■ Social Media: #fhcPODCAST / #fhcTAKEAWAYSRECOMMENDED BOOKS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:* David Benner - Surrender To Love: https://www.amazon.com/Surrender-Love-Discovering-Christian-Spirituality/dp/0830846115/ref (https://www.amazon.com/Surrender-Love-Discovering-Christian-Spirituality/dp/0830846115/ref)=sr_1_3?crid=3911VRG9M7SMX&keywords=surrender+to+love+by+david+benner&qid=1557282855&s=gateway&sprefix=surrender+to+love%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-3* Mark Buchanan - The Rest of God: https://www.amazon.com/Rest-God-Restoring-Your-Sabbath/dp/0849918480/ref (https://www.amazon.com/Rest-God-Restoring-Your-Sabbath/dp/0849918480/ref)=sr_1_1?keywords=mark+buchanan+the+rest+of+god&qid=1557282938&s=gateway&sr=8-1* Barbara Brown Taylor - An Altar in the World: https://www.amazon.com/Altar-World-Geography-Faith/dp/0061370460/ref (https://www.amazon.com/Altar-World-Geography-Faith/dp/0061370460/ref)=sr_1_4?crid=K41HTP2DLPYW&keywords=barbara+brown+taylor+books&qid=1557283050&s=gateway&sprefix=barbara+brown+t%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-4Tune in every Wednesday as we take a look back at our prior week's message for unique takeaways, added perspective, and a peek at the upcoming message at the Florida Hospital Church. Thank you for joining us and we will see you next week for a first time FHC Retreat surprise during Episode 153! NEW!!! Stream :15 With Andy, Randy, & Jeff on Spotify!: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Xy1JKKnnWIiZayBfSFdUZ?si=HBn5jlVkQyqmSGJofnuFGg (https://open.spotify.com/show/3Xy1JKKnnWIiZayBfSFdUZ?si=HBn5jlVkQyqmSGJofnuFGg)Find all of the #fhcTAKEAWAYS in the FHC Mobile App under “This Week” on the FHC Tab and they will be included with their corresponding message!Watch the message that coincides with this episode in the FHC Mobile App by clicking on Media and then Archives or go to our website: http://hospitalchurch.org/sermon/a-victorious-life-how-temptation-works-and-how-we-help/ (http://hospitalchurch.org/sermon/a-victorious-life-how-temptation-works-and-how-we-help/)Download our App by going to our website: http://hospitalchurch.org/fhcapp (http://hospitalchurch.org/fhcapp)Say hello on Twitter; https://twitter.com/floridahc (https://twitter.com/floridahc), Facebook; https://www.facebook.com/hospitalchurch/ (https://www.facebook.com/hospitalchurch/); Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/floridahc/ (https://www.instagram.com/floridahc/); and use one or all of the #hashtags - #fhcPODCAST #fhcTAKEAWAYS #fhcINSPIRES #Temptation #Surrender
God's plan is for “no pressure” giving and “no pressure” call to giving. The person on minimum wage and the top wage earner both are called to responsibly manage their money. While the total dollars may be very different, as a percentage of income, they are equal. Those who are wealthy have great responsibility in managing in a godly way the excess beyond meeting their own needs. To the one who has been given much, much is required.2 Corinthians 8:1-15One of our #fhcTAKEAWAYS asked: What is a real and tangible way you can love and give according to what you have?We welcome your feedback and questions about this topic! Please reach out to us directly from the FHC Mobile App. You can share by using the Media tab, and then - Podcast banner - use the text and email share buttons, or use one of the following:■ Text/Voicemail: 407-965-1607■ Email: firstname.lastname@example.org■ FHC Mobile App: Media Tab/Podcast Banner and Use Text and Email links■ Social Media: #fhcPODCAST / #fhcTAKEAWAYSTune in every Wednesday as we take a look back at our prior week's message for unique takeaways, added perspective, and a peek at the upcoming message at the Florida Hospital Church. Thank you for joining us and we will see you next week for a first time FHC Retreat surprise during Episode 140! Find all of the #fhcTAKEAWAYS in the FHC Mobile App under “This Week” on the FHC Tab and they will be included with their corresponding message!Watch the message that coincides with this episode in the FHC Mobile App by clicking on Media and then Archives or go to our website: http://hospitalchurch.org/sermon/my-gift-is-proportional-to-my-blessing/ (http://hospitalchurch.org/sermon/my-gift-is-proportional-to-my-blessing/)Download our App by going to our website: http://hospitalchurch.org/fhcapp (http://hospitalchurch.org/fhcapp)Say hello on Twitter; https://twitter.com/floridahc (https://twitter.com/floridahc), Facebook; https://www.facebook.com/hospitalchurch/ (https://www.facebook.com/hospitalchurch/); Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/floridahc/ (https://www.instagram.com/floridahc/); and use one or all of the #hashtags - #fhcPODCAST #fhcTAKEAWAYS #fhcINSPIRES #MyMyMy
This week, Fiona is joined by joined by David, Tahir and Stuart for ‘Escape from Mos Shuuta’, a Star Wars: Edge of Empire’s starter adventure by Fantasy Flight Games.Find out more about Edge of Empire and other Fantasy Flight Games on their website: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com.***Apologies for the technical difficulties and background noise in advance***Timestamps:Intro: 00:00:09Recap of game mechanics: 00:01:28Final comments and technical difficulties: 00:02:15One-shot start: 00:02:42Outro and credits: 01:02:58CreditsThe 'What Am I Rolling?' podcast was created, recorded and edited by Fiona Howat.The WAIR logo was created by Fiona Howat.This episode’s players were David Burns, Tahir Mahmood and Stuart Foy.This episode’s RPG one-shot was 'Escape from Mos Shuuta’, a Star Wars: Edge of Empire’s starter adventure by Fantasy Flight Games. Find out more about Edge of Empire and other Fantasy Flight Games on their website: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com.The theme music was '8-bit march' by Twin Musicom (twinmusicom.org), licensed under a Creative Commons 4.0 License.The additional music in this episode was 'Light Years Away' by Doug Maxwell.If you want to find out more about the podcast, check out the 'What Am I Rolling?' podcast website: www.WAIRpodcast.com.Fancy getting in touch? Email the podcast at whatamIrollingpodcast[@]gmail.com.Follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram (@WAIR_Podcast) for the latest news on episodes.#AdventurersNeedNotApply
And Jesus said to the man, Stand up and go. Your faith has made you whole ~Luke 17:19 “We can never DO the work of God in a dark world until we are motivated first by what God has DONE for us” “We can never LOVE the world in the name of Christ until we are first filled with the LOVE of Christ for us” 11As Jesus continued on toward Jerusalem, he reached the border between Galilee and Samaria. 12As he entered a village there, ten lepers stood at a distance, 13crying out, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!" 14He looked at them and said, "Go show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed of their leprosy. 15One of them, when he saw that he was healed, came back to Jesus, shouting, "Praise God!" 16He fell to the ground at Jesus' feet, thanking him for what he had done. This man was a Samaritan. 17Jesus asked, "Didn't I heal ten men? Where are the other nine? 18Has no one returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?" 19And Jesus said to the man, Stand up and go. Your faith has made you whole ~Luke 17:11-19 The number of those who pray is greater than the number of those who praise The number of those who believe is greater than the number of those who praise Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name. ~Psalms 100:4