Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast

Have you heard the saying “research is me-search”? It means people often explore topics they personally need or want to understand better. Well, that's exactly what today's episode is for me. I've had migraines since I was a teenager, and after being diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago, I started noticing how closely the two seem to be connected. Conversations with clients, colleagues, and other people I know showed me that I'm not alone. It seems like many people who have ADHD also deal with migraines. I started researching to find out if there is a connection between migraines and ADHD, and it turns out, there is! I connected with Dr. Sarah Cheyette to learn more. Dr. Cheyette is a pediatric neurologist who specializes in both ADHD and migraines. Dr. Cheyette graduated from Princeton University and received her medical degree at UCLA. Following specialty training in pediatrics at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles and in pediatric neurology at Seattle Children's Hospital, she practiced at Palo Alto Medical Foundation. She now owns a private practice in northern California. Today, she brings her insight into how these two conditions overlap. In our conversation, we talk about what migraines are, why migraines happen, how they're triggered, and—most importantly—what we can actually do about them - both to prevent and treat. Dr. Cheyette shares strategies for tracking headaches, making small but meaningful lifestyle changes, how to make sure you're doing the right things and taking the right meds to manage these debilitating headaches. Whether you live with both ADHD and migraines, or you're supporting someone who does, I hope you'll find this episode informative and validating. I have shared some articles and research studies in the show Show notes:Learn More About Dr. Sarah Cheyettehttps://sarahcheyette.com/Migraines and ADHDThe Connection Between Migraine and ADHDhttps://www.migrainedisorders.org/migraine-and-adhd/Migraines and ADHD: The Overlooked Connection to Headacheshttps://www.additudemag.com/migraines-and-adhd-headaches-symptoms-treatmentsThe Connection Between ADHD and Migraineshttps://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/the-connection-between-adhd-and-migraines/Comorbidity of migraine with ADHD in adultshttps://bmcneurol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12883-018-1149-6ADHD Is Comorbid to Migraine in Childhood: A Population-Based Studyhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28587507/Learn More About Our MAP Programhttps://map.worksmartcoaching.comLearn More About 1:1 Coachinghttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-works

Today's episode is one I'm especially excited to share with you. Whether you're an Executive Function expert or you're just starting out learning about these essential life skills, you'll want to listen because we have not one but *two* Executive Function leaders featured.First up, I'm so happy to have been joined once again by the OG of Executive Function awareness, Ellen Galinsky, who sat down with me on Focus Forward in March of 2024 when her book, The Breakthrough Years, came out. Ellen is the President of the Families and Work Institute and the elected President of the Work and Family Researchers Network (WFRN). She also serves as senior research advisor to AASA, the School Superintendent Organization. Previously, she was the Chief Science Officer at the Bezos Family Foundation and faculty at Bank Street College. Her research has focused on the impact of work-life on families, child and adolescent development, youth voice, child-care, parent-professional relationship, and parental development. Ellen's work has contributed deeply to how we understand children's learning and development - and how we, as adults, can nurture it. Our second Executive Function leader is Dr. Megan McClelland, an internationally recognized expert on school readiness and self-regulation in very young children. She is the Katherine E. Smith Professor of Human Development and Family Sciences at Oregon State University, where she also directs the Hallie E. Ford Center for Healthy Children and Families. Megan's research focuses on optimizing children's development, especially as it relates to children's self-regulation, early learning, and school success. Her recent work has examined links between self-regulation and long-term outcomes from early childhood to adulthood and intervention efforts to improve these skills in young children. She is currently involved with multiple national and international projects to develop measures of self-regulation and improve school success in young children. Megan is also the co-author of Stop, Think, Act, a book all about how we as educators and parents can help our kids strengthen their EF skills through play.Today, you'll hear us talk about why executive function skills matter and how we can help kids strengthen them through everyday activities - Megan and Ellen help parents and educators see that we learn when we play! Whether you're a parent, educator, or just someone who cares about kids' success in the long run, this episode is full of insights you won't want to miss.I hope you enjoy listening! Here are the show notes from the episode: Learn More About Ellen GalinskyEllen Galinsky's Websitewww.ellengalinsky.comThe Breakthrough Yearshttps://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/Mind in the Makinghttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/Families and Work Institutehttps://www.familiesandwork.org/Learn More About Megan McClelland, PhD.https://health.oregonstate.edu/directory/megan-mcclellandStop, Think, Act by Megan McClelland and Shauna Tomineyhttps://www.amazon.com/Stop-Think-Act-Integrating-Self-Regulation/dp/0415745233Executive Function ResourcesVroomwww.vroom.orgInstitute for Education Sciences: "Preparing Young Children for School" - A research-based guide with specific tips and activities for educators.https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/practiceguide/30Focus Forward Ep 23: Parenting for Success: How to Nurture Executive Function Development in Early Childhoodhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=rgbq6nrrvfFocus Forward Ep 26: Navigating Stress, Parenting, and the Brain: A Conversation with Dr. Alison Royhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=oygnbqkqqq

In today's quick 15-minute episode, we're exploring strategies for breaking down large tasks into manageable steps - a crucial skill for enhancing productivity and reducing overwhelm. From brain bumping to chunking, learn new practical techniques that are designed to help initiate tasks, reduce decision paralysis, and maintain momentum. These methods are particularly helpful for anyone with ADHD, executive dysfunction, or anyone who finds getting started challenging. By implementing these approaches, you'll hopefully be able to transform those daunting projects into many small steps that will lead to action and confidence. As always, thank you for being part of the Focus Forward community! If you enjoy this episode, be sure to leave us a 5-star rating on the platform you're listening on ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Here are the show notes from this episode (lots of useful links and tools!)STM ToolGoogle Docs version (will force you to create a copy)https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WAabo_q7Zg61Ns-A8KkXVYmvq9eXhQUlnSoiHWk5HYM/copyWant an Excel version? Email me and I'll send you one!Focus Forward Episodes Mentioned in this EpisodeEp 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About Ithttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6dEp 14: 4 Steps to Build Time Management Strategies You'll Use for Lifehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=2hd9mmw2wiEp 21: Rethinking Your Thinking: How Cognitive Flexibility Can Improve Your Life and Relationshipshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=mdpox3lokqEp 43: Creativity & Executive Function: How to Enjoy the Brain Benefits of Eachhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=2o3uog9wpoEp 58: Routines Without Rigidity: Your Guide to Building & Sustaining Healthier Habitshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=jhszcaaccpEp 62: Lighthouse Parenting: How to Communicate, Connect, and Guide with Confidence (ft. Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=v0rl5xa5ubOnline and AI ToolsUniversity of Toronto Assignment Plannerhttps://utsc.library.utoronto.ca/assignment-planner (shared by Beyond BookSmart coach, Kerrie Welch)Goblin.toolsLearn More About Our MAP ProgramMorning accountability sessions for planning, skill-building workshops, and work sprints for maximum support and accountability! All for a low monthly fee.https://map.worksmartcoaching.comLearn More About 1:1 Coachinghttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-worksGet in Touch:podcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoachingwww.beyondbooksmart.com

Today, I am so excited to share this conversation I had with Dr. Kenneth Ginsburg. If you are a parent, a caregiver, an educator, a coach, a therapist, a human who interacts with children, young and old, this episode is for you. We all have something to learn from Dr. Ginsburg's insightful and engaging interpretation of these decades of research on what works in parenting. Dr. Ginsburg practices adolescent medicine at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and is a professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania, a founding director of the Center for Parent and Teen Communication, the Director of Health Services at Covenant House Pennsylvania, an agency that serves Philadelphia's youth enduring homelessness and a father of two young adults. This vast experience and deep passion for supporting children of all ages and their families, in my opinion, makes him the perfect lighthouse for us as we navigate the sometimes murky or stormy waters of raising our own children and supporting the children of others around us.You'll hear Dr. Ginsburg and I speak highly of Ellen Galinsky who was a guest on Focus Forward and who wrote the highly acclaimed books Mind in the Making and The Breakthrough Years, all about EF skills in children and adolescents. If you're interested in learning more about Ellen's work, check out the show notes and Focus Forward episode #40, which coincidentally dropped exactly a year ago this week. Ellen will be joining me again in a few weeks to talk more about Executive Function skills with early childhood development researcher, Megan McClelland. In the meantime, thank you for listening! Show Notes: Learn More About 1:1 Coaching https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-worksLearn More About Dr. Ginsburghttps://www.fosteringresilience.comCenter for Parent and Teen Communicationhttps://parentandteen.com/Ellen Galinsky's bookshttps://ellengalinsky.com/

As a person with ADHD or Executive Function challenges it can often feel like society - you know, people at work, in our homes, anyone we encounter during our day, expects you to think, work, and communicate the same way as everyone else. It can be exhausting and can often require that you advocate for yourself and your needs more than you would like! And the first step of advocacy is figuring out what exactly it even is that you need! In this episode, I'm joined by Melissa Llewellyn Snider and Brianna Morton, ADHD coaches and co-hosts of The Hypercast ADHD Podcast.Together, we explored the power of self-acceptance because, as they say, it is truly the foundation for building strong and effective self-advocacy skills. We discussed the challenges of setting boundaries, navigating dynamics at work and in our personal lives, and learning to communicate our needs—without guilt or apology. We talked about the importance of having people around you who GET YOU. And, most importantly, we'll talk about embracing our differences rather than masking them, because, as Brianna shared, you're not a weird horse—you're a perfectly normal zebra.Show notes: Learn More About Our Guests:Hypercast: An ADHD Podcastwww.hypercastpod.comMelissa Llewellyn Snyderhttps://www.likemindcoaching.com/Brianna Mortonhttps://www.understandingadhd.ca/More about Self-Advocacy: Read & ListenEp. 39: Speaking Up: How to Empower Our Kids to Advocate for Themselves (ft. Dr. Nerissa Bauer)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=j5rz3vnbkpFrom Failing to Thriving: ADHD Strategies Every College Student Needshttps://hypercastpod.buzzsprout.com/2328723/episodes/16524660-from-failing-to-thriving-adhd-strategies-every-college-student-needsTalking to Teachers: Building Self-Advocacy in College Students - Beyond BookSmart Bloghttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/talking-to-teachers-building-self-advocacy-in-college-studentsSelf-Advocacy Can Improve Your Lifehttps://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/self-advocacy-can-improve-your-life/

Today's episode is especially important for people to find - we're covering the topic of eating disorders - it's a tough one but so important to talk about as eating disorders are so much more than you may realize. Beyond simply affecting what someone does or doesn't eat, they also impact brain function, emotional regulation, and the other critically important executive functioning skills we use every day like impulse control, focus, and decision-making.To help us understand these challenges, I sat down with Dr. Emily Gordon, a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in adolescents and young adults, with expertise in eating disorders, body image, and parenting. Dr. Gordon has worked in clinical leadership roles at McLean Hospital. She helped launch the Klarman Center for Eating Disorders and now runs a private practice in Massachusetts. She's also a parent of three teenagers.So listen today to learn from Dr. Gordon as she teaches us about the different types of eating disorders, their impact on executive functioning, and the early warning signs parents should look out for. If you're a parent navigating these challenges, you're not alone. Supporting a child through something like this can be overwhelming, and I've seen in my own experience that many families find that the addition of executive function coaching helps bring structure and support in times of stress. If you're curious to learn more about how we help, you can visit our website at beyond booksmart.comShow Notes Learn More About Dr. Emily GordonWebsite:www.dremilygordon.comInstagram: @dremilygordonLinkedInwww.linkedin.com/dremilygordonSubscribe to her newsletter:dr-emily-gordon.kit.com/podcastLearn More About Eating DisordersWhat are Eating Disorders?https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/eating-disorders/what-are-eating-disordersNational Eating Disorders Associationhttps://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/resource-center/Executive dysfunction in eating disorders: Relationship with clinical featureshttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36181959/Exploring the Relationship Between Disordered Eating and Executive Function in a Non-Clinical Samplehttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0031512520937569Get in Touchpodcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoachingwww.beyondbooksmart.com

In today's episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. John Randolph - a board-certified clinical neuropsychologist, brain health consultant, and Clinical Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at Dartmouth's Geisel School of Medicine. He's the past president of both the National Academy of Neuropsychology and the New Hampshire Psychological Association, and his research focuses on cognitive health, executive functioning, and resilience. He's also the author of The Brain Health Book: Using the Power of Neuroscience to Improve Your Life.In our conversation, Dr. Randolph breaks down the CAPE model—a simple and powerful way to think about and take care of our brain health. We talked about cognitive strategies, activity engagement, preventing cognitive problems, and education about our brains. And, how small, consistent actions can make a big difference in our long-term brain health. We also discuss the impact of sleep, exercise, and social connections, which was validating for me as this is what I always like to ask my clients about. Dr. Randolph also shares a little about the research he's doing with people with multiple sclerosis to figure out how to improve cognitive resilience. Our brains are fascinating, so listen today to learn how we can extend and enrich our lives by taking care of them!Show NotesLearn More About Dr. John Randolphhttps://www.randolphnp.com/about-dr-john-randolphThe Brain Health Book: Using the Power of Neuroscience to Improve Your Lifehttps://wwnorton.com/books/978039371287212 ways to keep your brain younghttps://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/12-ways-to-keep-your-brain-youngBuild Better Work Habits: How Your Brain Changes with Practicehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/build-better-work-habits-how-your-brain-changes-with-practiceThe Quiz My Colleague Used With Her Clienthttps://www.viacharacter.org/account/registerLearn More About 1:1 Coachinghttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-worksLearn More about BrainTracks Teacher Professional Developmentwww.braintracks.comGet in Touchpodcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoachingwww.beyondbooksmart.com

In this week's episode, we're talking all about routines. If you've ever tried to make a lasting change in your life, then you know how hard sustaining new habits can actually be. However, there are proven strategies that you can use to solidify habits into routines. In this short episode, I'll be sharing some of my favorite practical strategies for building and sustaining routines.Thorugh the science of behavior change, you'll discover new ways to build healthier habits through small changes that snowball into bigger transformations over time. Most importantly, my hope is that you find some practical approaches to build routines that work for you (even when life changes or gets stressful!) Have thoughts or questions? Feel free to send me an email at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comI hope you enjoy listening! Here are the show notes for today's episode: Show notes:Ep 12: How to Maintain Progress Through Times of Changehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=p9nb11s6hxEp 57: Decluttering Your Life: How to Make Space for What Matters (ft. Tidy Dad, Tyler Moore)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=pcr8a1lkgbAtomic Habitswww.jamesclear.com/books11 Personal Hygiene Tips for People With ADHDhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/11-personal-hygiene-tips-for-people-with-adhdTime for Bed! Why Sleep is Essential for Executive Functioninghttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/time-for-bed-why-sleep-is-essential-for-executive-functioningOn-Demand Webinar on Building Healthy Routineshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/building-healthy-routines-webinar-on-demand-recordingTips from Calm.comhttps://www.calm.com/blog/daily-routine

Today, I'm joined by the one and only Tyler Moore, AKA “Tidy Dad.” Tyler is a New York City Public School teacher, a husband, and a father of three. He creates content based on his own experience with tidying that he hopes will help others find joy and order in what he calls, “the beautiful mess of life”. Tyler came on to Focus Forward to share his new book, Tidy Up Your Life, which was just released this month! The book is a deep dive into the connection between physical and mental clutter and how our ability to organize, prioritize, and adapt can shape the way we live. Tyler and I also explored how embracing uncertainty and the “messy middle” of change, pivoting when necessary, and experimenting with routines can lead to powerful shifts in both mindset and priorities. He also explained the thinking behind his step-by-step approach to maintaining our homes —starting with organizing, followed by tidying, and then cleaning. In his book, he expands his ideas on this by offering cleaning and tidying options that are thoughtful, simple, and accessible for each area of the house.Tyler was fun to talk with and I hope you enjoy our conversation and learn a lot from him! Here are the show notes from today's episode: Learn More About TylerWebsitewww.thetidydad.comInstagramwww.instagram.com/tidydadTidy Up Your Lifehttps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751698/tidy-up-your-life-by-tyler-moore/From the Beyond BookSmart BlogGetting Organized: Minimizing Clutter In 4 Easy Steps - Beyond BookSmart Bloghttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/getting-organized-minimizing-clutter-in-4-easy-stepsGaining Calm by Organizing: How to Clear Your Space & Mindhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/meditation-in-organization-how-to-clear-your-space-mind7 Tips for Organizing With ADHD: How to Organize Betterhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/7-tips-for-organizing-with-adhd-how-to-organize-betterGet in Touchpodcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoachingwww.beyondbooksmart.com

Happy holidays, everyone! It's such a special time of year and I'm grateful to all of you for choosing to spend some of it with us here at Focus Forward! Don't forget to check out Beyond BookSmart's New Year's discount on our new monthly coaching subscription, which offers 2 of our 45-minute one to one coaching sessions per month for a more accessible price of $252. You have the choice to add more sessions if you need additional support. You can find more information in the show notes or by going to our website, beyondbooksmart.com. Still have questions? Shoot me an email at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com and I can help you out!Parenting, much like coaching, is a journey full of questions, challenges, and opportunities for growth—both for our children and ourselves. How do we guide without pushing, encourage independence while offering support, and foster resilience in a world full of pressures? Ooof, it's a lot of work. Today, I'm joined by Neal Elliott, a parent and veteran coach at Beyond BookSmart who has been coaching since our company's inception in 2006, and whose wisdom has shaped countless lives. I asked Neal to join me to share three stories about coaching. The stories he chose highlight the importance of trust, relevance in learning, and meaningful parent-child relationships. You'll hear about a student who improved his algebra skills by connecting math to Minecraft, a long-term client who rebuilt confidence through trust, and a special in-person coaching moment from our pre-virtual coaching days.Neal's stories inspired our conversation and led us to talk about building trust, encouraging progress (even the smallest steps), and reframing failure as a vital learning opportunity. Whether you're navigating the teen years or guiding a younger child, I hope Neal's stories and wisdom will inspire reflection and offer some support for the road ahead. And be sure to check the show notes for Neal's curated collection of books and other resources he wants to share with Focus Forward listeners. Neal knows what he's talking about and he's created a treasure trove, people! Show Notes: Neal Elliott's Resource Listhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/14vTPW7F2IrCF8CDwKp8xTEXMSt5NsR0xiPG5i6boDxE/edit?usp=drive_linkLearn more about Beyond BookSmart's 1:1 Coaching Programhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-it-worksSee our current coaching subscription prices (discounted through January 5, 2025!)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/contact-us

Something I love about executive function skills is that when you host a podcast all about them, you will literally never run out of topics because EF skills impact every aspect of our lives. In today's episode, we're talking about romantic relationships and executive functioning. I'm joined by Dr. David Helfand, a licensed psychologist specializing in neurofeedback and couples therapy. Dr. H, as he goes by with his patients, shared how executive functioning impacts relationships, particularly for couples navigating the impact of stress, trauma, and neurodivergence. I was so happy to also be joined by my podcast team—Sean Potts, our editor and producer, and Justice Abbott, our creative visionary. We got to dig deep into how to make our relationships healthier by improving our communication, emotional regulation, and intimacy. Whether you're looking to strengthen your relationship or support a partner with executive function challenges, this episode is packed with insights to help you move forward together. Just a note if you're listening with children around - we briefly and non-graphically mention sex, as this often an important aspect of romantic relationships. Some of the questions we covered today were submitted by our listeners. If you want to be part of the conversation, be sure to sign up for our subscriber newsletter and follow Beyond BookSmart on our social media channels.Episode 55 - Dr. David Helfand - couples and EFLearn More About Dr. David Helfandhttps://www.lifewisevt.com/david-helfand-psyd/https://marriagequest.org/dr-david-helfand-psyd/https://marriagequest.org/marriage-retreat/Further ReadingWhy You Should Stop Rescuing Your Partner (and what to do instead)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/why-you-should-stop-rescuing-your-partner-and-what-to-do-insteadRelationships & How ADHD and Executive Function can impact themhttps://sethperler.com/%F0%9F%A7%A0-relationships-how-adhd-and-executive-function-can-impact-them/The Impact of ADHD on Marriagehttps://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/adhd.10.3.9.20553?journalCode=adhdEffects of adult ADHD on intimate partnershipshttps://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10522158.2023.2165585Get in Touchpodcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoachingwww.beyondbooksmart.com

In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's so important for families navigating the ups and downs of childhood and parenting: behavioral and Executive Function challenges in kids.I had the pleasure of inviting back to Focus Forward the wonderful Dr. Nerissa Bauer, a developmental pediatrician with a wealth of knowledge and compassion for helping families thrive. Nerissa has been a great partner with us at Beyond BookSmart and I'm so happy to be able to share her wisdom with you all again. Listen today to hear us explore the messages behind children's behaviors, the connection between emotional regulation and executive function, and how parents and caregivers can approach challenges with curiosity, collaboration, and love. Dr. Bauer shared invaluable insights, from understanding the “why” behind behaviors to the power of the pause and how we can model self-regulation for ourselves and for our kids. Be sure to check the show notes after you listen to learn more about Nerissa's work.Learn More About Dr. Nerissa BauerYouTube Channelhttps://www.youtube.com/@NerissaBauerMDLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-bauer-md-mph-faap-4b692967/Let's Talk Kids' Healthhttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/Teach Me ADHD Virtual Courses for Parents and Kidshttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/virtual-coursesEp 39: Speaking Up: How to Empower Our Kids to Advocate for Themselves (ft. Dr. Nerissa Bauer)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=j5rz3vnbkpEmotional Regulation ResourcesEmotional Regulation as a Kid Can Be Challenging: These 7 Activities May Helphttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/7-activities-to-help-your-child-with-emotional-regulationHow Beyond BookSmart Supports Students with Emotional Regulation Challengeshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/how-we-help/stress-managementEmotional Regulation and Executive Function Skills: A Powerful Linkhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/emotional-regulation-and-executive-function-skills-a-powerful-linkHow Can We Help Kids With Self-Regulation? - The Child Mind Institutehttps://childmind.org/article/can-help-kids-self-regulation/Co-regulation: Helping children and teens navigate big emotions - Harvard Health Publishinghttps://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/co-regulation-helping-children-and-teens-navigate-big-emotions-202404033030

Ah, I'm so excited about this one! In today's episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with the one and only Kendra Adachi - popular author, podcast host, and creator of “The Lazy Genius” approach. Kendra offers a refreshing perspective on using and trusting our executive function strengths and supporting ourselves where we face challenges. Her method encourages us to be "geniuses" about what matters while allowing ourselves to let go of what doesn't. Throughout our conversation, we dive into Kendra's new book, "The Plan," which brings a compassionate twist to time management. We also explore the impact of small, intentional changes, trusting ourselves, and how to push back against pressure to “always do more.” Kendra also breaks down her five-step Lazy Genius Method for tackling big projects: prioritizing, essentializing, organizing, personalizing, and systemizing. Kendra's insights remind us that we can find real contentment by honoring what truly serves us, trusting our instincts, and embracing the season we're in. I hope you enjoy listening and walk away feeling as inspired as I did! Show notes: Learn More About Kendra Adachi and The Lazy Genius: https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/The Plan - a book all about compassionate time management: https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/theplanKendra on Instagram: @thelazygeniusLearn more about Beyond BookSmart: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/

It's no secret that parenting a child with ADHD can be overwhelming at times. However, with the right mindset and support, it can also be fulfilling and inspiring. In this week's episode of Focus Forward, I sat down with Archie Chimanayi, an ADHD professional who offers assessment, treatment, and management of ADHD, Autism, Depression and Anxiety for children and adults. Beyond his expertise, Archie also has a son who has ADHD and autism, which means he has a unique perspective of a professional and a parent of a child with a diagnosis that impacts Executive Functioning. I was lucky enough to be a guest on Archie's “ADHD Care” podcast back in May of 2024 and left the conversation knowing that he would be a perfect guest for the Focus Forward audience. The format of this episode is a little different than our usual interview format. I'll be playing three short clips from our original chat. After each clip, I'll share some of our recent conversation where we went beyond what we covered initially, bringing in fresh insights and more detailed discussion to help you as a parent, caretaker, or professional. From knowing what to look for, navigating the feelings that can come up after a diagnosis, and understanding the importance of self-care for men—this episode is about taking a closer look at the challenges and opportunities that come with raising a child with ADHD. I hope you enjoy the conversation!Here are the show notes from the episode:Learn More About Archie ChimanayiADHD Care, Ltd.https://www.adhdcare.co.uk/?p=aboutArchie's Video Tour of Exhibit Hall: ADHD Conference in Baltimore (2023)https://youtu.be/cHahKPTxf8A?feature=sharedEpisode 61 - Navigating ADHD: Parenting, Podcasting, and Personal Insights with Hannah Choihttps://www.spreaker.com/episode/episode-61-navigating-adhd-parenting-podcasting-and-personal-insights-with-hannah-choi--60147752Episode 69 - Focus Forward Podcast Feature with Hannah Choihttps://www.spreaker.com/episode/episode-69-focus-forward-podcast-feature-with-hannah-choi--62388901Other resources mentionedMen with ADHD Facebook Grouphttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mensadhdsupportgroup/ADDitude Adults with ADHD Facebook Grouphttps://www.facebook.com/groups/additudemag/

Hi everyone! We're right in the middle of ADHD Awareness Month, and to celebrate, we're bringing back one of our all-time favorite episodes with a twist. Today, we look at what makes ADHD brains tick, explore both medication and non-medication strategies, and talk about how pairing these with executive function tools can build confidence in people with ADHD. We also give tips for those of you who are exploring a potential ADHD diagnosis for yourself or your child. This episode also includes voices from a number of people with ADHD who graciously recorded their thoughts to share with us. Trust me, you'll want to stick around until the end, because we have the most adorable voice you've ever heard, sharing their experience with ADHD—I can't wait for you to hear it! Show notes: Episode 51 - Re-release of ADHD episodeADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmarthttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022Fact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) Topicshttp://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/adhd-facts.pdfBeyond BookSmart's ADHD Webinarhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/on-demand-webinar-registration-adhd-fundamentalsADHD BrainsHow Does ADHD Affect The Brain?https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/the-brains-structure-and-functionADHD & the Brainhttps://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Families/FFF-Guide/ADHD_and_the_Brain-121.aspx2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gAThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and Attentionhttps://www.labschool.org/news/stories/default-mode-network-motivation-and-attentionADHD Neuroscience 101https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-neuroscience-101ADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measureshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827008/The Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly Mileshttps://www.inclusivetherapists.com/blog/the-intersection-of-adhd-and-gender-diversityA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMChttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195638/ADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for Parentshttps://psychcentral.com/adhd/people-with-adhd-more-likely-to-question-gender-identityADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind Institutehttps://childmind.org/article/how-to-get-an-adhd-diagnosis/Diagnosis of ADHD | CDChttps://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/ADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD https://chadd.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/ATTN_06_12_Exercise.pdfWhat Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-should-you-treat-first-adhd-or-mental-health-challengesCognitive-Behavioral Therapy - CHADDhttps://chadd.org/for-adults/cognitive-behavioral-therapy/Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and Optionshttps://psychcentral.com/adhd/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-adhdNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard Healthhttps://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/non-drug-treatments-for-adult-adhd

Long time no see! Welcome back to season 4 of Focus Forward AND our 50th episode of the podcast. We're so happy you're here with us as we begin the best season yet. Today's episode topic was chosen based on research we've gathered about people interested in coaching. According to our questionnaire, planning & prioritizing is the #1 Executive Function skill that students and adults alike are currently struggling with. In this episode, I'll be sharing some of our favorite tools and strategies to help you or someone you love buiild this critical skill. Show notes: Executive Functioning and Positive Outcomes for ChildrenExecutive Function & Self-Regulationhttps://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/Executive Function Skills Predict Children's Success in Life and in Schoolhttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/stories/executive-function-skills-predict-childrens-success-in-life-and-in-schoolEllen Galinsky's books on EF and children and adolescentsThe Breakthrough Yearshttps://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/Mind in the Makinghttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/Focus Forward Episodes MentionedEp. 40: The Breakthrough Years: Raising Thriving Teens Through Executive Function (ft. Ellen Galinsky)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=fhebx5zqflEp. 14: 4 Steps to Build Time Management Strategies You'll Use for Lifehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=2hd9mmw2wiEp. 25: Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction: Expert Tips to Help Motivate Your Kidshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=e5k6nv0wteExecutive Function for Teachers and Classroomswww.braintracks.com7 Classroom Management Strategies That Teach Students Executive Function Skillshttps://www.braintracks.com/blog-posts/7-classroom-management-strategies-that-teach-students-executive-function-skills

Today's episode is just for us parents during this back to school time. As you already know, supporting the people we love comes more easily when we feel good about ourselves. However, when things get busy and our energy drains, it's easy to forget about taking care of ourselves. With the return to school providing plenty of chaos for us parents, now is the perfect time to prepare and make sure you're ready to not only support your kids, but also yourself. So today, we're exploring five key Executive Function areas that will really support you during this time and give you some tips and strategies in each area. Even if you can't realistically do all of the things I cover, pick one - just one - that you're going to commit to doing. Make observations over the next few weeks - what was hard? What was easy? Did it make a difference? Is there something else you can add? (This reflection is an Executive Function exercise in and of itself!) Show Notes:Register for our Back-to-School Webinar on August 14https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/back-to-school-relief-2024Watch Our Past Webinarshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/workshops-and-eventsFocus Forward Episodes MentionedEp 44: Ask the Coaches: Answering Your Top Questions about Summer, Motivation, Transitions, and more!https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=z1tfw9hl2aEp 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About Ithttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6dEp 42: Insomnia, ADHD, and Sleep Hygiene: How to Transform Your Life Through Better Sleep (ft. Marlee Boyle)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=rpuckdh0f5Other ResourcesCovey Quadrants/Eisenhower Matrix (Hannah's version)https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bzg9nObT0HbK5EjK2s7bBW3deSRzstAVA_v_VEX71zY/edit?usp=sharingClutterBugwww.clutterbug.me

Today's episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Deborah Korn, a licensed clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience treating trauma with EMDR therapy. If you haven't heard of EMDR before, you're in for a treat because this therapy technique is pretty mind-blowing. From our conversation, you'll learn what EMDR therapy is, how it works, and who might be a good candidate for this innovative intervention for coping with trauma (spoiler alert: you don't need to have had a big traumatic experience to benefit from EMDR!) Best of all, Dr. Korn shared some inspiring and heartwarming stories about people whose lives have been changed for the better (or maybe even saved) by EMDR therapy. I hope you enjoy the episode!Show notesLearn more about Dr. Kornhttps://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/about-deborah-korn-psydEvery Memory Deserves Respect Bookhttps://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/bookLearn More About EMDREMDR International Associationhttps://www.emdria.org/about-emdr-therapy/EMDR Institutehttps://www.emdr.com/what-is-emdr/

Today's episode is all about obsessive-compulsive disorder or OCD. I met up with Dr. Anthony Bram, a clinical psychologist in Lexington, Massachusetts to learn more about this fascinating brain-based condition. Dr. Bram works with adults and kids, providing support for a wide range of mental health challenges, including OCD, anxiety, depression, and learning differences. He explained to me that he became interested in helping people with OCD during his predoctoral internship. He realized that the traditional kinds of psychotherapy that he had been learning were not so effective in alleviating the distressing symptoms of his patients with OCD. This led him to discover a specialized form of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) called exposure with response prevention (ERP). Dr. Bram continued to learn more during his postdoctoral work at the Menninger Clinic, which was in Topeka, KS at the time. There, while primarily pursuing advanced training in traditional modalities of treatment and assessment, he also sought the supervision of a cognitive behavioral therapist who specialized in OCD so he could begin learning and applying ERP and other CBT techniques. This experience taught him the importance of being flexible and expanding his therapeutic skills to better meet the diverse needs of his clients. I'm so happy to bring Dr. Bram on so we can all learn about OCD, its connection to executive functioning, and how to support people in our lives who may be struggling with it and its related challenges. Enjoy! Show notes: Learn more about Dr. Bramhttp://www.dranthonybram.com/Learn more about OCDhttps://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocdhttps://iocdf.org/about-ocd/OCD activity in the prefrontal cortex (image)https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x6W41yZhcbsnf4ZJ9qCY1R8J4-_jv0sl/view?usp=sharingFind a Providerhttps://iocdf.org/find-help/?_provider_proximity=42.3600825%2C-71.0588801%2C50%2CBoston%252C%2520MA%252C%2520USA

Okay, so this week is a tasty episode! I invited Becca King, a registered dietitian and social media influencer with nearly 200k followers, to join me on Focus Forward to talk about food, ADHD, and Executive Function as the three are more interconnected than you might think. We talk about many aspects of food and cooking - how to lower or get rid of barriers that may prevent us from cooking or eating nourishing food, meal planning and how to make it work for you and how it may change as your life situation changes. We also talked about the importance of crunch (haha!), finding satisfaction in the food we eat, and how to remove the guilt or shame we might feel when we don't cook or eat how we feel like we “should”. Becca follows an “all foods fit” approach to nutrition and really helps people get to a place where they can nourish themselves with nutrient-dense foods and eat the fun stuff, too. Thanks for listening and be sure to check out Becca's instagram and resources in the show notes below!Show NotesLearn more about Becca KingInstagram: www.instagram.com/adhd.nutritionistBecca's Tips for Remembering to Eat: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Os3jH51Y-7BwNQdn7zSntTzj1b2FBswP/view?usp=drive_linkBecca's Sensory Descriptors to help understand your sensory preferences with food: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gjbDnVhwDIvYbodCGtu7tGB0vbWS60aU/view?usp=drive_linkADHD and FoodExecutive Dysfunction 101: How to Treat ADHD's Most Difficult Symptom: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/executive-dysfunction-101-how-to-treat-adhds-most-difficult-symptom#howtotreatEDADHD Diet For Adults: Foods To Eat And Avoid:https://add.org/adhd-diet/Nutrition in the Management of ADHD: A Review of Recent Research:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10444659/Nutrition and ADHD: https://chadd.org/about-adhd/nutrition-and-adhd/

As Executive Function coaches, we often talk about how working on Executive Function skills is really an act of building self-confidence. Learning to be confident in yourself and believing you can get through the hard stuff is the key to trying new things, reaching your goals, and truly making a lasting difference in all areas of life. We work hard to build this confidence in our clients, just as my guest today does with his college students. James Sanders the third is a professor of public speaking and interpersonal communication at Fayetteville Technical Community College in North Carolina. He joined me to share how teaching public speaking has shown him how students can truly blossom when they step outside of their comfort zone. I'll let him tell you more about the work he does, but this man is making positive change happen wherever he goes. We talked about the importance of community, of trusting yourself, and saying yes to the scary things that are a stepping stone towards reaching your goals. In addition to being interesting to talk to and an inspiring ray of sunshine,

Hi everyone! Today we're having another Q&A with some of our amazing Executive Function coaches. Together, we answer your top questions pertaining to summer support, motivation, transitions, and so much more! Our last coach Q&A episode was in December and became our second most listened to episode of all time - so we figured why not do it again? The three Beyond BookSmart coaches I met with this time are Vin Kachurik, Cass Estey, and Maria Ares. If you've attended any of our free webinars, you may recognize a few of their voices. Although many of the questions we answered were about high school and college life, the tools and strategies we discuss can be used by anyone at any age. So tune in and get some support for the inevitable transitions and challenges that we all face at this time of year! And when you're done listening, be sure to check out the show notes for some links to more resources and deeper dives into some of the tools we talked about today.Webinar: Finishing Strong: Executive Function Solutions for End-of-Year Successhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/finishing-strong-executive-function-solutions-for-end-of-school-year-successJames Clear (Atomic Habits) Resourceshttps://jamesclear.com/eisenhower-boxhttps://jamesclear.com/atomic-habitsCovey Quadrants Explainedhttps://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/covey-time-management-matrixHow to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment Expertshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/how-to-increase-motivation-with-adhd-10-tips-from-expertsSpoon Theory Explainedhttps://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/80/20 College Splithttps://drive.google.com/file/d/198Yao_AjXR8KwBxUoRu8IGGIQIgg0wAa/view?usp=drive_linkCollege Readiness Skills Listhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/125bkdoLNuBA-3qagORblx7ICSBBVGm74/view?usp=sharingA Day in the Life of a Sumo Wrestlerhttps://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/sumo/sumo04.html

Today we're talking all about creativity. You may have already known that Executive Function skills benefit our creativity, but what you might know is that creative hobbies can actually have huge benefits for the development of our Executive Functioning. In this episode, we explore this symbiotic relationship so you can learn how to enjoy the brain benefits of both creativity and Executive Function. The full episode is now available to stream on all your favorite podcast platforms (linked above!)As always, thank you for being part of the Focus Forward community! If you enjoy this episode, be sure to leave us a 5-star rating on the platform you're listening on ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Here are the show notes from today's episode: Benefits of Creative HobbiesAssociation of Enjoyable Leisure Activities With Psychological and Physical Well-Being: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2863117/Crafts as serious hobbies: Impact and benefits in later life: https://intellectdiscover.com/content/journals/10.1386/crre.9.1.93_1Window of ToleranceWhat Is the Window of Tolerance, and Why Is It So Important: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/making-the-whole-beautiful/202205/what-is-the-window-tolerance-and-why-is-it-so-importantHow to Help Your Clients Understand Their Window of Tolerance: https://www.nicabm.com/trauma-how-to-help-your-clients-understand-their-window-of-tolerance/Managing PerfectionismConquering Failure: Expert Tips for Building a More Resilient Life: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/overcoming-procrastination-webinar-on-demand-registration-0Focus Forward Ep 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About It: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=n2bmc91r6dThe Perils of Handmade Perfectionism: https://luvliness.net/2024/02/the-perils-of-handmade-perfectionism/5 Teachings From The Japanese Wabi Sabi Philosophy That Can Drastically Improve Your Life: https://www.omaritani.com/blog/wabi-sabi-philosophy-teachingsCreative Hobbies and Executive FunctionDirections Practice: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zIOa53QyoJkx98mhLCluX2NGNgZ4iXN-ag2hW-gHUL0/editSewing with Threads Podcast - Sewing and Neurodiversity: https://www.threadsmagazine.com/2024/04/03/sewing-and-neurodiversity-with-hannah-choi-episode-76Learn more about Hannah and Bonnie (Bonnah Co Fiber Arts): https://www.bonnahco.com and https://www.instagram.com/bonnahcofiberarts

Hi everyone! Today we're talking about sleep. I met with Marlee Boyle, a respiratory therapist and sleep specialist in Nova Scotia, Canada. Marlee co-owns a sleep clinic and specializes in helping people with ADHD improve their sleep. This episode is one that you'll want to listen to because we all should, as Marlee says, “start with sleep”. You'll also learn about sleep apnea and how important it is to address this, differences in circadian rhythms and what to do about them, how cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I) can help, and how to support kids who have difficulty sleeping. As always, thank you for listening! Here are the show notes from today's episode: Learn More about Marlee Boylehttps://www.sleep-works.com/Sleep Works' Favorite Sleep Toolshttps://www.sleep-works.com/amazon-storeMarlee's Venn diagram of Sleep and ADHD symptomshttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1P9Q9KHzCNe7_ej0J9EwbwWPYa9SWykTb/view?usp=sharingSleep ResourcesCDC Sleep Resourceshttps://www.cdc.gov/sleep/resources.htmlSleep Resources from MIThttps://health.mit.edu/community/sleepADHD and Sleephttps://www.sleepfoundation.org/mental-health/adhd-and-sleepEp. 41 of Focus Forward - Dr. Olivardia shares some information about sleep apnea and his own experience with ADHD and sleephttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=mfbk3q8d60ADHD and Sleep Problems: This is Why You're Always Tiredhttps://www.additudemag.com/adhd-sleep-disturbances-symptoms/

Today's conversation explores a really important topic - the occurrence of ADHD with other diagnoses, also known as comorbidities. If you aren't sure if this topic applies to you, I encourage you to listen anyway because you might end up learning something that could truly, truly help yourself or someone you love in ways you never expected. I learned so much from my guest, Dr. Roberto Olivardia, who is a clinical psychologist and lecturer at Harvard Medical School. I met Roberto at the ADHD conference in Baltimore last year and was excited to get him on Focus Forward. He's just a wealth of knowledge and super interesting to talk to. Roberto and I started out exploring the comorbidities that can occur with ADHD, such as OCD, anxiety, depression, and bipolar disorder. Our conversation led us to sleep and sleep apnea and eating disorders in boys and men and the connection to ADHD here, too. This important connection is not talked about or studied as much as it needs to be. Thank you for listening and I hope our conversation resonates with you or someone you love.Show NotesLearn More About Dr. Roberto OlivardiaRoberto Olivardia's profile: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/profile/roberto-olivardiaMcLean Hospital's Free Mental Health Webinars: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/video-series/mental-health-webinarsFacing Insecurities With Body Dysmorphic Disorder - webinar hosted by Roberto: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/video/facing-insecurities-body-dysmorphic-disorderThe Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys: https://www.amazon.com/Adonis-Complex-Identify-Prevent-Obsession/dp/068486911X/Roberto Olivardia on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=roberto+olivardiaLearn More about the Connection between ADHD and Other DiagnosesWhat Is Complex ADHD? Symptoms, Diagnosis & Treatment by Theresa Cerulli, MD:https://www.additudemag.com/complex-adhd-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment/Not Just ADHD? Helping Children with Multiple Concerns: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/features/not-just-adhd.htmlAre Eating Disorders Related to Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4777329/Is obstructive sleep apnea associated with ADHD? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21808754/

Hi everyone! It's a special day for us here at Focus Forward. Today marks our 40th episode, just days ahead of our two-year podcast anniversary. I want to thank our amazing team at Beyond BookSmart and of course, you, our listeners. It means so much to us to know that so many are finding the work that we are doing here at Focus Forward helpful.Today's episode is also really special because I had the ultimate privilege and joy of getting to sit down with Ellen Galinsky. Ellen is the OG of researching and writing about Executive Function skills, parenthood, and child development. In addition to being the author of many books, she also founded the Families and Work Institute along with many other life accomplishments you can read about in her bio. You may have heard of or read her book “Mind in the Making” which explores seven life skills young kids need to thrive - and these life skills are Executive Function skills! In her books, she takes the brilliant work done by researchers all over the world and writes about it in a way that we non-researchers can understand and use in our lives. She's done the same in her new book, The Breakthrough Years, which comes out in a couple of weeks on March 26. The Breakthrough Years teaches us more than just how to help our teenagers thrive, it helps us understand them. As you'll hear Ellen explain, she asked teenagers what they want people to know about them and the messages that teens want us adults to hear make up the five chapters of the book. So tune in and learn how to help raise thriving teens through a deep knowledge of what drives them and through the application of Executive Function strategies. Learn More About Ellen GalinskyEllen Galinsky's Websitehttps://www.ellengalinsky.comThe Breakthrough Yearshttps://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/Mind in the Makinghttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/Families and Work Institutehttps://www.familiesandwork.org/Other Parenting Resources I've Been Loving LatelyLisa Damour's books and "Ask Lisa" podcastAliza Pressman's book and "Raising Good Humans" podcastNever Enough by Jennifer Breheny WallaceAdam Grant's books and “Rethinking” podcast (not parenting-focused, but still very much applicable!)Kenneth Ginsburg's book, Congrats - You're Having a Teen! Contact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Today's episode covers a topic that's close to my heart - both as a parent and an Executive Function coach. We'll be talking about self-advocacy for kids and adolescents with Dr. Nerissa Bauer, a behavioral pediatrician from Indiana whom I met through my colleague Wendy Craven. Nerissa and I got to meet in person at the ADHD conference in 2023, which was just so much fun that I had to bring her onto Focus Forward! Together, we explored the importance of emotional literacy, which empowers kids to recognize and express their feelings effectively. We also discussed how kids, especially those facing learning challenges or other diagnoses, can learn to advocate for themselves. You'll hear Dr. Bauer share invaluable insights and actionable tips for parents and caregivers of all ages, from toddlers to high school seniors. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation as much as I enjoyed being a part of it! Here are the show notes from today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Nerissa BauerYouTube Channelhttps://www.youtube.com/@NerissaBauerMDLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-bauer-md-mph-faap-4b692967/Let's Talk Kids' Healthhttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/Teach Me ADHD Virtual Course for Parents and Kidshttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/teach-me-adhd-sales-page-general-registrationSelf-Advocacy Resources6 tips for helping your grade-schooler learn to self-advocatehttps://www.understood.org/en/articles/6-tips-for-helping-your-grade-schooler-learn-to-self-advocateThe Importance of Self-Advocacyhttps://www.understood.org/en/articles/the-importance-of-self-advocacyGetting Students on the Road to Self-Advocacyhttps://www.edutopia.org/article/getting-students-road-self-advocacy/Self-Advocacy for College Studentshttps://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-studentsEmotional LiteracyMarc Brackett, PhD talks emotional literacy with Brene Brownhttps://brenebrown.com/podcast/dr-marc-brackett-and-brene-on-permission-to-feel/Emotional Knowing and Emotional Literacyhttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/envy/202209/emotional-knowing-and-emotional-literacyDeveloping Emotional Literacy Across the Grade Levelshttps://www.edutopia.org/article/developing-emotional-literacy-across-grade-levels/

Hi everyone! In today's episode, I sat down with Dr. Bianca Busch to talk about college students, their experiences adjusting to college, and how they can take care of their mental health. Dr. Busch is a psychiatrist in the Dallas, TX area and also the founder and CEO of The College Psychiatrists, an organization dedicated to supporting the mental health needs of college students.We explored topics such as the importance of emotion regulation - always a fave of mine, learning to recognize and manage feelings of overwhelm, and the role of friends and other support networks in promoting mental well-being in college students. As we know, the college experience is not just about academics as students must learn how to balance classroom demands with healthy social relationships. With a compassionate approach, which really resonated with me, Dr. Bush offered guidance on fostering resilience and building a foundation for success both in college and after graduation. Listen to learn from her knowledge and experience as she shares her insights into the unique challenges that college students face today.Here are some relevant resources from today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Bianca Buschhttps://www.drbiancabusch.com/https://www.collegepsychiatrist.com/https://www.instagram.com/collegepsychiatrist/Overwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Controlhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/overwhelmed-by-college-heres-how-to-regain-controlFreshman Social Jitters? 5 Tips to Making Friends in Collegehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/freshman-social-jitters-5-tips-to-making-friends-in-collegeWhat College Students Struggle with Most (and what you can do to help)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-college-students-struggle-with-most-and-what-you-can-do-to-helpBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health Checklisthttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/well/mind/mental-health-college-students.htmlTwo Keys to Helping College Students Feel Like They Belonghttps://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/two_keys_to_helping_college_students_feel_like_they_belon

This week's episode is focused on something that is both widespread and completely misunderstood - imposter syndrome. After all, there's nothing inherently wrong with people who feel like imposters. It's not a syndrome - especially to the degree to which the term “syndrome” is appropriate. In reality, the more accurate name is something more like “imposter phenomenon, which is actually a term coined by the original researchers on this subject, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, in their initial papers. Regardless of what you want to call it, feeling like an imposter who doesn't deserve the success they've experienced or the position they're in is all too common in today's world. Left unchecked, feeling like an imposter can grow beyond self-doubt and prevent us from feeling fulfilled or confident in all areas of our lives. Luckily, my guest today is Dr. Nicole Pulliam - aka the perfect person to help you overcome your self-doubt! I was connected with Nicole through a colleague of mine, Allison Larthey, who saw her speak at the Women's Leadership Summit in NJ in the fall of 2023. After having the pleasure of speaking with her for this episode, I now know why she was so impressed by Nicole's presentation. Tune in to hear our conversation about how to manage feeling like an imposter, the impact of it on our lives, and what you can do to better support yourself and those around you. Here are the show notes for today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Nicole Pulliamhttps://www.realandworthyllc.com/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbSFe0FumnkLearn more about Imposter (or Impostor, both are right) PhenomenonThe Imposter Phenomenon in High Achieving Women: Dynamics and Therapeutic Intervention - Clance and Imeshttps://www.womeninanesthesiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ip_high_achieving_women.pdfImposterism, Perfectionism, and Burnout – A Toxic Triad - Dr. Tracey Markshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BMSsKWJ8gsStop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndromehttps://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndromeFeeling Like an Impostor Is Not a Syndromehttps://slate.com/business/2016/04/is-impostor-syndrome-real-and-does-it-affect-women-more-than-men.htmlIt's Not 'Impostor Syndrome' When You're Black and Womanhttps://watercoolerconvos.com/2016/04/20/its-not-impostor-syndrome-when-youre-black-and-woman/Dealing with Imposter Syndrome (ADHD Storytime from How to ADHD)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wbCf0gNSwThe Connection Between ADHD and Imposter Syndrome | Psychology Todayhttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/on-your-way-with-adhd/202302/the-connection-between-adhd-and-imposter-syndrome

Could we really have a podcast called “Focus Forward” without eventually covering the topic of attention and focus? Of course not! Rest assured, today's the day, and as a person with ADHD, difficulty paying attention is one of the most frustrating aspects of my brain. Most annoyingly, I seem to notice just about everything that's happening around me but still end up missing so much of what's actually important for me to remember. Luckily, I now know that this is simply a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was some inherent character flaw. Can you relate to that struggle, too? Well, then this episode is for you. Today, we explore the critical Executive Function skill of attention and examine some of the most effective strategies for supporting focus in people of all learning profiles. I hope you enjoy and gain some valuable ideas to try out in your own life! If you do, be sure to leave us a review (and let me know at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com!)In the meantime, here are our show notes for today's episode: Impact of Meditation on the BrainMindfulness Meditation Is Related to Long-Lasting Changes in Hippocampal Functional Topology during Resting State: A Magnetoencephalography Studyhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312586/When science meets mindfulnesshttps://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-researchers-study-how-mindfulness-may-change-the-brain-in-depressed-patients/7 Ways Meditation Can Actually Change The Brainhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/02/09/7-ways-meditation-can-actually-change-the-brain/Myth of MultitaskingDan Crenshaw's YouTube Video - Try the Myth of Multitasking Exercise!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQyfirx2HAPsychology and Neuroscience Blow Up the Myth of Effective Multitaskinghttps://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/psychology-and-neuroscience-blow-up-the-myth-of-effective-multitasking.htmlStop Multitasking. No, Really — Just Stop It.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/29/opinion/do-one-thing-at-a-time-management.html?unlocked_article_code=1.NE0.5X_B.EppCuwbpn7YE&smid=url-shareContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptSpace CadetAirheadDaydreamerAbsent-Minded ProfessorDitzyScatterbrainedShe's got her Head in the CloudsDreamerAny of those names sound familiar to you? I can feel my own gut reaction to saying them aloud just now and know that I have either been called them by others or called myself them inside my head. As a person with attention and memory challenges, it's bound to happen that I forget stuff or neglect to pay attention to stuff I really should notice. And, ironically and very annoyingly, I seem to notice literally everything going on around me and at the same time, not notice the important stuff when it's really, really important for me to do so. Now I know that this is a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was just a character flaw. Can anyone relate to that, too? Well, today's episode is about the EF skill of attention, which as you may know already, is tightly connected to the EF skill of memory. They're like best friends and worst enemies at the same time. Frenemies, as they kids say, wait how long has that word been around? Do people still say it? Am I dating myself by saying it or making myself seem cooler than I really am. Lemme look this up MAKE TYPING NOISE Okay, I just did a quick google search and “frenemy” was first used in 1953! It's often attributed to Jessica Mitford, Queen of the Muckrakers and notorious Civil Rights lawyer who wrote in her 1977 book “Decca: The Letters of Jessica Mitford” saying that her sister came up with the word. Wait, what's a muckraker…hold on. Ahh, wait, okay, Hannah pay attention and get back to the episode at hand. We can learn about muckrakers later on.Okay yes, so, the connection between memory and attention. When I interviewed Dr. Sherrie All for episode 16 of Focus forward, which was all about memory, she said this: memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. So, if you struggle with remembering stuff, it might be worth an investigation into your attention EF skill. That's what we're going to do today. We'll take a look at how inattention can impact our lives and what we can to do set ourselves up for success. I'll teach you some tools and strategies our coaches like to share with our clients and I'll also spend a little time debunking the myth of multitasking. Sorry folks, it's not a thing. At least, not for most of us. Before we dive in, I want to talk briefly about the connection between EF skills and our emotions. As you have heard me say before and I'll say again and again, our emotions are connected to our executive functioning. If we're stressed, having trouble regulating our emotions, or in a crisis, our EF skills may be, will likely be, harder to access, especially the ones that we struggle with in regular times. So, if you find it hard to pay attention and your memory is anything like mine, go easy on yourself, especially in challenging times. Improving your attention can help with remembering more but the reality is that some people will still have challenges with memory, even if they are fully paying attention. Have some grace, some compassion for yourself. Listening to this episode, learning some strategies, and taking the time to learn and care for yourself is a good way to do this. Okay, so other than the direct impact on memory, how else can inattention impact our lives? Inattention can lead us to overlook important details. This can look like not noticing a negative sign in a math problem, missing a payment to the dentist, entering a wrong number on our taxes or maybe not even paying our taxes at all, missing a meeting with the boss, or putting the waistband on a pair of pants backward. That last one was me. I love to sew clothing and I did that once. Wait, I actually did it twice. In the same day. I noticed that I had put the waistband on backward and then unstitched it all, which if you've ever unstitched something, you know how tedious it is and then I did it AGAIN. So, inattention can have some real consequences on our grades, our finances, our time, and our self-esteem. It can also have a severe effect on our health and safety. In the kitchen, it can result in injuries or fires, while driving it could potentially lead to fatal accidents, while playing sports, we could hurt ourselves or others. We could miss cues our bodies are giving us and unintentionally delay treatment for a health condition. We could miss dangers in our environment, like when I walked head-on into a guy wire. The guy wire was fine. My knee was not. Wait a second. Is it guy wire or guide wire? I've always said guy wire but maybe it's guide wire? Hold on…wait wait wait back to the episode, you can research that later, Hannah.Anyway, there are a ton of other situations I'm sure you can imagine or pull up from your own life experience. The message here is that attention is a critically important, time-saving - and potentially life-saving - EF skill to work on. So, it's good you're here.So, how can we set ourselves up for success? There are a bunch of things we can do to increase our attention and reduce the chance of all that bad stuff I probably just depressed you with from happening. There's hope, folks, there's hope. And a lot of the things we can do are pretty simple. Of course, you actually have to do them, which is the hard part but let's all give it our best shot.First one is a magic trick. At least, for me, it seems to be a magic trick. It's to slow down. Just slow down. It's that simple. And yet, sooooooo hard to remember to do in the moment. But, really, slowing down can make a world of difference for your attention ability. When we rush, we're more likely to miss things. Just this morning, my son was leaving for school and had to be there earlier than normal and had to bring some extra stuff with him. He rushed out the door and 30 minutes later, we got a call from him that he forgot the extra stuff. If he had slowed down, he would have noticed the bag we had oh so thoughtfully left right by the door. And earlier this week, I rushed to send an email to a large mailing list and then my colleague pointed out that I had forgotten to include the link I referenced in the email. In the moment, it feels like slowing down will waste time, but you can see in these two examples, we ended up having to use more time later to fix the consequences of rushing. It can help to repeat a mantra of “slow down” or “take your time”. Slowing down does not come naturally to many people and can take some time to build it into your life. But I think it's a goal worth working towards because it helps us be more proactive and less reactive.This reminds me of that quote by Viktor Frankl: “Between the stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space lies our freedom and power to choose our responses. In our response lies our growth and our freedom”Slowing down allows us to expand that space and take advantage of the many benefits of this kind of thinking. Okay, this naturally leads me to the next tip for improving our attention - mindfulness and meditation practice. I've talked about this before on Focus Forward and you've likely heard about it before. Studies have shown that meditation and mindfulness do actually strengthen our ability to pay attention, focus on what we're doing, and, as you might expect, remember things. You can find links in the show notes if you'd like to learn more. When we meditate regularly, we strengthen the areas of our brain that support attention and focus. The prefrontal cortex actually changes structurally! And, meditation can lower your stress levels, which as you know, will make it easier to access your executive functions. As we learned from Rachel Hulstein-Lowe in episode 12 about maintaining progress during times of transition, mindfulness doesn't have to be anything fancy. Just taking the time to pay attention to the things we do regularly, to slow down and notice what we're doing and the sensations we're feeling. But, if you're interested in a more comprehensive meditation practice, there are so many amazing resources out there in the form of apps, websites, and books. You could check out your local library, gym, and yoga studio to see if they offer meditation classes. If you are skeptical, rely on the science to convince yourself to try it. Your attention will thank you!Okay, next up is something we always hear and probably just go “yeah, yeah, yeah” about. Sleep. Prioritizing it is critical for a bajillion reasons and attention is one of the most important ones. I'm going to be interviewing sleep and ADHD specialist, Marlee Boyle and our conversation will drop sometime in April. We met the other day and I asked her for her top five tips for maximizing our sleep quality. 1) Keep a regular wake up time. Sleep regularity improves sleep quality and helps us fall asleep at a regular time. Even if you have a poor night's sleep, still wake up at the same time to prevent throwing off your sleep schedule for multiple nights2) Try not to stay in bed while you're awake. If you're awake for more than 20 minutes in your bed, try getting out of bed for 20 minutes and do something boring in low lighting until you feel sleepy and then return to bed.3) Get outside in the morning and take breaks outside as much as you can when you're not sleeping well. Sunlight is a strong regulator of sleep so by getting daylight exposure (even on overcast days) will improve your circadian rhythm and help you sleep. And, I just want to add to Marlee's tip here that if you work at night and sleep during the day, installing blackout curtains, using a white or brown noise machine to minimize sounds that might wake you, and using a sunrise lamp for waking might help improve your sleep.4) Don't stress about not sleeping. If you're having difficulty sleeping, try not to let yourself worry about it because that will keep you awake longer. 5) Limit caffeine to just the morning time and use it strategically, rather than habitually. Okay, that's enough for sleep. Try to get more, okay? and come back in April to learn even more from Marlee.Next up are two quick tips I like to teach my clients. Breaking large tasks down into smaller, more manageable steps and paying attention to diminishing returns. I've covered both of these in other episodes so I won't get into them too deeply, but just a reminder that these two strategies can have a huge impact on your ability to pay attention. Okay, so first let's quickly look at breaking things down. When the steps of a project are smaller and clearly defined, it's easier to pay attention to the task. We are less distracted by worries about how long it'll take or how hard it'll be, the requirements of the task are clear to us, and we know there will be a stopping point relatively soon. Slowing down before you start a large task and breaking it down into these smaller steps will give you so much relief down the road. My second tip is to pay attention to diminishing returns - is your effort giving you an equal amount of productivity in return? Instead of setting a timer when you're going to do work, try paying attention to how you're engaging with the work. Are you finding it easy to focus? Keep going! Is your mind wandering and you can't focus? Maybe it's time to do something else or employ some other kind of strategy to support your focus. I recognize that many listeners may rely on urgency to get things done, so this strategy may not work for you. If that's you, you might benefit from the procrastination episode I did - it's episode 11 - awww, back when we were just a baby podcast.I had a college student client who did poorly on a test in an astronomy class. He got half the questions wrong even though he paid attention in class and studied well. When we took a look at what he did during class, he mentioned that he was listening to the instructor but he wasn't taking notes and was only relying on her handouts, slides, and the text for studying materials. He decided he'd try taking notes for the second half of the semester. He got only one question wrong on the final and reported that he truly understood and remembered the material in a way he had never before. Not only did he have more resources to use when he studied for the final, he was fully engaged in the class and because of that, found it more interesting and easier to pay attention. When we engage ourselves in what we're doing, we're less likely to be bored and distracted and we're more likely to remember what we did. This same strategy can be used in a variety of situations - taking notes in a work meeting is likely to help you remember what the heck your boss said, asking questions during a boring conversation with your grandmother might make it more interesting, and taking notes in a class you find boring might trick your brain into actually learning something. Granted, I know this can be a Herculean task when it's a topic you're completely not interested in, but I do think it's worth a try. And you never know, you might find out that astronomy is your jam! Like, did you know that a majority of stars we see are actually binary stars? It's not one star, but two stars orbiting around a common center of mass. Amazing!Ack, okay back to the topic at hand, Hannah - pay attention! Now, let's explore another tool for focus, and this one might not be for everyone: listening to music. Surprisingly, for some, it can enhance attention during focused work, as long as it's the right kind of music. Studies support this, even though it might spark disagreement among parents.Many find lo-fi music ideal for studying. I usually listen to mellow tunes in a foreign language to avoid getting distracted by the lyrics. If music doesn't work for you, be honest with yourself. It can be tempting to listen anyway, even if you know it's detrimental to your ability to focus. Instead, consider brown or white noise to minimize distracting background sounds. Finding what works best for you is key to making potentially mundane tasks more manageable.You might be wondering why I haven't delved into how phones can wreck our attention.I kinda feel like I don't have to. We all know they're distracting, and it's a tough battle to win. Pretty much everything on that phone is designed to leave you wanting more. Instead, let's explore how we can use our phones to help us with attention. Planning apps, to-do lists, and reminders help us focus and break down tasks. Apps like Focus Dog and Forest motivate us to stay off our phones. Meditation apps like Headspace and Smiling Mind teach us to meditate. Note-taking, Pomodoro timing apps, and phone features like digital well-being settings enhance productivity and reduce distraction. Set alarms and timers for focused work without constantly checking the clock. Countdown timers can challenge you to finish tasks within a set timeframe. Embrace your phone as a tool for focus rather than a distraction.I just want to say one more thing about phones and attention. Please, please get off your phone while you're driving. I totally get how easy it is to do. I promise you I'm not trying to preach or act like I'm innocent - I have totally done it myself, but truly - the people in your life need you to stay alive. Other people driving or walking on the roads need to stay alive for their people. So keep your attention on your driving and not your phone. Distracted driving can be more devastating than you could ever imagine.Okay, so let's move on to debunking that multitasking myth. I'm the bearer of bad news for those of you who self-identify as multitaskers. You're actually switch-taskers. We know you can't actually do two things at once and quickly switching back and forth between things may SEEM like multitasking but it's actually still switch tasking. Although, I have to say that when my kids were little, I think I might have actually been able to multitask - somehow I could open a yogurt smoothie bottle for my daughter and answer the never-ending “why” questions she was asking me while cooking dinner and cleaning off the counter and adding new socks for her little brother to the mental list of things I had to get at the store and also wondering when I had last washed my hair. Can anyone relate? Okay, so other than parents of young children, no one is truly multitasking. Every time we break from a task to switch to a new one, we lose focus, which, as we know, slows us down or causes us to miss stuff or make mistakes. Here's a little test you can try to see this in action. I learned this from Dan Crenshaw, whose YouTube video is linked in the show notes. Okay, so You're going to pause me and do two things: one, get a pen and paper and two, open the stopwatch on your phone. Then, come back and I'll tell you what to do next. See, I'm breaking down the task into smaller steps! Practicing what I preach, baby. Okay, hit pause now and come back when you're ready. Yay! You're back! Okay, hopefully you've got your pen, paper and timer ready. Alright, you're going to pause me again and write the alphabet down on your paper. Then, below that, write the numbers 1 through 26 under each corresponding letter. So, when you're done, you'll have two horizontal lines - one with the alphabet and one with numbers 1 - 26. Be sure to time yourself doing it, okay? Alright, go do it, I'll wait again. Okay, yay, you came back again! Okay, now you're going to do the same thing again but this time you're going to write A and then 1, B and then 2, C and then 3, D and then 4 and so on. So the result will look the same - a line of the alphabet with a line of numbers under it, but you'll be switching back and forth between the letters and corresponding numbers. Got it? Okay, do it now and don't forget to time yourself again cuz otherwise this is just a big waste of time. Welcome back! So unless you're magical or a parent of small children, your second time should be longer than the first time. You may have even made or almost made some errors while you were doing it. My point is, if you can, try to work on one, just one, thing at a time. You'll hopefully find it easier to focus, get more done, feel less tired when you're done working, and make less errors. Granted, if you've been really embracing the multitasking life, you'll likely find it challenging to drop this habit. But, give it a shot! You may find you need to use strategies to support this - maybe use a timer to keep you on task, use one of those focusing apps for your phone, or if you meet virtually, try keeping your camera on so you can't sneak off and send an email during a meeting. It can also be motivating to keep track of how you feel when you don't multitask - are you noticing any improvements or benefits? Check out the show notes for more ideas on beating multitasking!Okay, so hopefully you're still with me and I haven't lost your attention yet! And yay for you because you've made it to the end of this episode! I hope it was not too boring and you were able to learn something new. There are a ton more things about attention I could have written about but frankly, I was getting a little bored of this topic myself and was losing my own attention, so that's our show for today! Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen! Please share this episode with anyone who might find it useful which is probably everybody. We're so grateful to everyone who has shared Focus Forward! Word of mouth keeps us alive. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com slash podcast. We've got some super special stuff coming up for our newsletter subscribers, so get your name on that list so you can find out what we're up to. Our patient and kind editor and producer is Sean Potts and our brilliant content marketer is Justice Abbott. Thanks for listening and I wish you all a healthy and happy new year. Oh, and it's guy wire, in case you were wondering. A guy is a rope, cable or cord used to steady, guide or secure. And a muckraker describes a journalist who worked to search for and expose real or alleged corruption, scandal, or the like, especially in politics. Roosevelt used the term as an insult to these writers in a speech in 1906. Hahaha, aren't you glad you paid attention until the end of this episode??

Well, we are almost at the end of the year. Happy New Year! Oh, you guys Thank you all so much for listening along in 2023. I was feeling a little emotional writing this intro. I'm so excited that we made it through another year. These podcast episodes are a lot of work and following through on stuff takes a lot of effort for me so I'm just really proud of myself for keeping up with it! And I have to say that what makes it easier for me is how much logistical, technical, and creative support my teammates Sean and Justice provide me and the continuous emotional support I get from them and other colleagues of mine at Beyond BookSmart - continually putting yourself out there as a podcast host is challenging so the emotional safety net they provide is well, I couldn't do it without it. We are looking forward to next year and are excited about our upcoming episodes. If you have any topics you'd like me to explore, let me know! You can email me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. And if you've got some free time, could you quickly rate our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? Hopefully 5 stars and if not, please let me know what we can improve! Today's episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Marissa Edwards, Ariela Paulsen, and Karl Apelgren. These fantastic humans are all executive function coaches for Beyond BookSmart and If you've attended any of our free community education webinars, you may recognize their voices. I was so thrilled they agreed to join me for a Coach Q & A episode where we answer questions that were asked by people who registered for our webinars. Today we tackle managing negative thoughts, the impact of complex medical conditions on our executive functioning, the power of connection and having a strong support network, test anxiety, finding motivation when you're not interested in something, especially classes, and how to succeed even if you have a teacher who is not supportive of your needs. I enjoyed talking with them so much that I really want to do this again. If you like this format, please let me know! As always, here are the shownotes from today's episode:Top 10 Ways for Overcoming Test Anxietyhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/top-10-ways-for-overcoming-test-anxietyHow to Help Students with Anxiety: Top 8 Tips for Parents and Teachershttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/treating-student-anxiety-7-expert-tips-for-parentsWhen Students with Health Conditions Transition to Collegehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/when-students-with-health-conditions-transition-to-collegeComplex Child - A Resource for Parents of Children Who Are Medically Complex or Have Disabilitieshttps://complexchild.org/Organization tips for caregivers of a child with complex medical needshttps://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/article?contentid=1148&language=englishExecutive Functions, Self-Regulation, and Chronic Pain: A Reviewhttps://academic.oup.com/abm/article/37/2/173/4565851How to Practice Self-Compassion: 8 Techniques and Tipshttps://positivepsychology.com/how-to-practice-self-compassion/Text a Friend… Right Now! - Happiness Lab Podcasthttps://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/text-a-friend-right-nowContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

A few months ago, I was in Ithaca for a family event and met Doug Kim, who shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager in their inclusive design team. Once he told me that his team develops technology in a way that supports neurodiversity and mental health, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. For anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I am sharing I learned from their Inclusive Design Toolkit, (which you'll hear more about later!) Inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation, which I just said, is the current, widely accepted definition, which was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products but can, and should be used when designing anything that many people will use. It's more than just making a product accessible, it's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will use it. Another thing I learned from the toolkit that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that “An important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute, while inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive design should make a product more accessible, it's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards but truly usable and open to all.” Something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. This aspect of inclusive design really resonated with me as an Executive Function coach and I hope it resonates with you, too! Microsoft's ResourcesMicrosoft Inclusive DesignOriginal ToolkitToolkit for CognitionInclusive AIFurther Reading:Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat HolmesInclusive Design Toolkit and resources from University of Cambridge, UKInclusively - Support for employers and employeesHistory of Inclusive Design - Institute for Human Centered DesignInclusive Design LinkedIn Learning Course with Christina MallonContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Oh my goodness, it has been a month since we last dropped an episode. With Thanksgiving and the ADHD conference and all the other stuff that just goes on at work. We decided to skip one this past month. And before I get to this episode's topic, I wanted to share a little mini report on our experience attending the ADHD conference, which was held in Baltimore from November 29 to December 2, and I'm recording this a few days after returning home and I am still filled with excitement. It was so great. Sean Potts and Justice Abbott from our marketing team and Wendy Craven, who is one of our outreach specialists joined me at the conference. And it was truly an incredible experience for us all. We met some brilliant and interesting people who stopped by our booth in the exhibit hall and shared their stories with us. And we worked really hard to make our booth a fun place to stop by people lined up to spin our colorful prize wheel and learn about ADHD symptoms and some tools that you can use to manage the challenges that come along with those symptoms. And our ADHD Beyond BookSmart squishy brains in our teal blue company color were a major hit. And our you're not lazy bracelets and stickers resonated with many people. We also had a secret notes project where people could anonymously share their thoughts about their ADHD, and a community art wall that everyone could contribute to. We are all so grateful we were able to attend. And next year's conference is in Anaheim in southern Southern Cal in sunny Southern California. And it is absolutely an event worth attending. So start saving those pennies. Okay, so let's get into today's episode. Back in June, I was in Ithaca for a family event. And I met Doug Kim, who is a friend of my husband's cousin, Doug shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager. And part of his job includes collaborating with the inclusive design team at Microsoft, and working on developing a guide for Inclusive Design for neurodiversity. And as soon as I heard those words come out of his mouth, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. And of course, because he's wonderful, he wholeheartedly said yes, and then came through with an even better offer, and brought two of his colleagues who are the leaders of inclusive design at Microsoft, Christina Mallon and Margaret Price. And for anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I'm sharing I learned from their inclusive design Toolkit, which you're going to hear more about later. And inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation that I just said is the current widely accepted definition. And it was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products, but can and should be used when designing anything that will be used by many people. It's more than just making a product accessible. It's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will actually use it. An additional thing that I learned from the toolkit, and that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that an important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute. Well, inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive designs should make a product more accessible. It's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards, but truly usable, and open to all. And something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning, and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process, and it's aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. And this aspect of inclusive design really resonates with me as an executive function coach. As coaches we also collaborate with our clients to carefully and thoughtfully over time. Figure out the best way of using a tool to create a larger system that works to support the EF challenges the client experiences Okay, enough of me talking about this, let's get on to the show. Oh, and by the way, you get to hear Exhausted Hannah today, I tried to record Focus Forward episodes in the mornings when my attention and my brain are at their best. But due to some scheduling limitations, a couple of my guests are on the West Coast. I recorded this conversation after a long day of work. And apparently speaking coherently, in complete sentences was not my strong point at that time that day, so please have patience with me. As you wait for me to get my thoughts out of my head. Oh, boy. Okay,Christina Mallon 05:38here we go.Hannah Choi 05:41All right. Well, hello, Microsoft people. Thank you so much for joining me on Focus Forward. Would you go around the room and introduce yourselves? Doug, do you want to start since you're the one that kind of connected us all?Doug Kim 06:01Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Doug Kim, and I'm a design manager at Microsoft. Part of my charter is to help support inclusive design. And a strong collaborator with Margaret. And Christina, were also on the podcast today. And we've been talking and working quite a bit over the, over the past couple of years on developing our developing our inclusive design toolkit, and especially developing better practices for designing for neurodiversity.Hannah Choi 06:34And Christina,Christina Mallon 06:37so I am Christina Mallon, I lead inclusive design at Microsoft, I joined about two years ago. I have dual paralysis and ADHD. So really excited to bring my lived experience into the conversation today. Hannah Choi 06:53Yeah, thank you. And Margaret. And last but not least, Margaret Price 06:57Hi, my name is Margaret. I joined Microsoft in 2014, as one of the founders of the inclusive design practice. I'm a strategist, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum. And so this is a topic that is near and dear to me.Hannah Choi 07:13So can you just tell me the story about how you, you know, got to where you are today, and, and you know, how this inclusive design became what it is, and just kind of how you got here.Margaret Price 07:28Back in 2014, the number of product groups at Microsoft were asking some pretty big, bold questions like, What is the future of interaction design? And what's missing from various design thinking methods today? And how can we think about embracing the full range of human diversity as we think about product making, from how we frame problems to how we solve them. And so a small team of people got together and created this practice called inclusive design at Microsoft, which is grounded in three principles of recognizing where there's exclusion today. Learning from diversity, and scaling, for figuring out how you can think about disability through the lens of permanent temporary and situational abilities. And recognizing that there's so much opportunity to learn from somebody who may be experiencing a permanent disability or anyone who's experienced a large range of exclusion. You might think about exclusion through the lens of disability, but also through the lens of socioeconomic status, gender identity and a number of other dimensions. And how do you bring people into the process who've been excluded. And what that means in product making is, of course, having diverse teams of people and championing that, but also thinking about how you recruit folks to come into the process as CO designers to actually bring equity into the process because, of course, what we make as a byproduct of how we make and so we started as a very small and scrappy team of people and ended up building education and capability for all of Microsoft and scaling that we wanted free, accessible resources for the world. So we actually ended up creating curricula that's now in over 60 universities around the world. And a number of companies have been inspired by the work that we've done to create their own inclusive design departments. And we've worked hard to, you know, create a number of experts there are incredible brilliant people all around Microsoft, who are experts in the space now who apply the inclusive design method into their own product groups. And so it's been, it's been a journey of trial and error and learning and testing from a number of diverse communities in Microsoft and outside of Microsoft. And it's certainly a subject that is near and dear to my heart and Doug's and Christina's.Hannah Choi 10:17That's great. Yeah, I love I love how that conversations are being had with people who, who truly know, the experience from because it's a lived experience, there's not, you know, there's not really sort of assumptions being made. Can you tell me a little bit about how you work with your co-creators and how you make that whole process? happen? And it sounds like it's pretty fantastic and successful.Christina Mallon 10:52Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to cover that. And Doug, let me know if you want to add on. So we believe and as Margaret just mentioned, it is integral that there is equity within product making. So our goal that Microsoft is to ensure that we are creating with people from marginalized communities, at the beginning of ideation, all the way to releasing for, you know, general release, and how we work with them is through either ERGs within our company, that has individuals from marginalized communities as a part of that erg and an erg as an employee resource group, or we work with teams or individuals with different lived experiences from being a part of a marginalized community outside and we pay them to ensure that they can provide feedback at multiple times within the product development process. And feel free to really join in as I know, we've been working hand in hand on this specifically in Azure.Doug Kim 12:04Yeah, you know, we're always looking for ways that we can collaborate with people who have experience and always always looking for ways to improve that and always ways to like, help, you know, the people on the inside, who are creating these products really, really, like, learn to empathize with what people are experiencing with their products, which is not easy. And it's, it's, it's not an easy process. And like, there were a lot of mistakes, I think, there were made, like, in the early days, people were just sort of building awareness about disability and accessibility, you know, people would try to just like, whatever, try to use a screen reader or something and say, oh, okay, I got it, right? Well, you know, you don't, right, because if you have the luxury of turning off the screen reader after 15 minutes, then you have no idea what it's like to not be able to do that. And so this is a lesson that we try to like, you know, drill into all the folks that we work with, in terms of like bringing them along on this process. You know, there's this, this is kind of like widely adopted phrase principle, you know, nothing for us without us. And so we really try to stick to that principle, like, involve people very deeply in the design process, who represent the audiences we're trying to expand our capabilities to include, and Sen. And we just really feel like you cannot practice inclusive design. Without that step. You know, you can't make assumptions because, you know, I guarantee if you're making assumptions without that input, they're going to be wrong. Yeah.Christina Mallon 13:40Yeah. And then Microsoft, we only consider products that are inclusive are ones that are co designed with communities. Because, you know, we believe that it is key to product success,Hannah Choi 13:54Right. So is, which would you say that, that like, how, how much does the idea of inclusive design come up in across to Microsoft as a whole? Like, is it it, would you say it's a conversation and and a viewpoint that the entire company has or is it is it more specific to certain products?Christina Mallon 14:26 Yeah, I mean, our mission is to create you know, tools, so that every single customer and enterprise customer and person on this earth can use it to reach their dreams and the company is bought into inclusive design. There are, you know, certain parts of the company where I feel like it was a design is used more. I definitely you know, if you have champions like Margaret, and Doug and they are specific In organizations, we see a lot of inclusive design. There are others where there isn't a strong champ of inclusive design, that less inclusive design happens.Hannah Choi 15:12And I suppose that's found, I mean, it's huge company.Christina Mallon 15:14So over 200,000 people, yeah.Doug Kim 15:19You know, it doesn't matter you can, you can be in a company of 200,000, or a company have like three things, you're trying to change behavior, it's always interesting what you have to, like, think about, right and plan for and strategize. So I think our situation is different. Obviously, we're at one of the biggest companies in the world. But like, you could be at a company of six and face like a similar set of challenges, and convincing people to work this way, developing expertise, you know, that's what the toolkit is about, just because we want to be able to like, like, empower the whole ecosystem, and give folks like yourself, like a set of tools that kind of like, normalizes the idea of inclusivity, it doesn't make it like an oddball thing that you only do, or think about, you know, once in a while, when you have the times likeHannah Choi 16:12that one person or something. Christina Mallon 16:14First original toolkit, over 2 million people have downloaded and used, we just launched the inclusive design for cognition, which we like to call Inclusive Design for Brain Stuff. And that launched it and we've seen a massive amount of users using it. But really, the Inclusive Design original toolkit is what led the way.Hannah Choi 16:38Yeah, I really love that. Something that I am, one of the goals of this podcast is to increase conversations about, you know, like, neurodivergent brains and how, and how, like, Let's break the stigma. And so I really love that you guys addressed that. saw that as a as a separate, not a separate, I don't want to say separate but like sight as its as its own area that needed attention. And that, and that needed that recognition and guidance for people who might not know what, you know, what people are experiencing. So I really love that that is that that is out? Are you seeing more and more people?Christina Mallon 17:28Now we're definitely a huge demand, Margaret, and Doug, get some original work around cognition. And as I took in the new role about, you know, two years ago, and change, we said, Okay, this work is so amazing. How do we get this in a more formalized toolkit? Because there is such a demand, I'm constantly getting LinkedIn messages, emails and say, Hey, how are you designing for people who have trouble focusing or making decisions or communicating? And that's why I reached out to both Doug and Margaret, when I joined to say, hey, can we build upon this work, and they really were, let's do it and signed up. And I really appreciate the partnership, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of usage of the toolkit, and also seeing it reflected and used by product makers at Microsoft and externally.Hannah Choi 18:25And I really love how the way that you created, it makes it I felt like, as I read it as a I don't, you know, I don't create products, but I do create, I do help my clients create, you know, systems that work well for them. And I really loved how it, I felt like it really encourages the reader from whatever viewpoint they're coming from, to consider what they need, and, and to consider how to ask for what they need. And here are some possible ideas and it just the way that you presented it is just really accessible. And it's kind of fun. And, you know, like the graphics are really fun. And I know that's just kind of like little stuff, but as a consumer, it made a difference for me when I was engaging with it. So anyone listening who hasn't checked out the Inclusive Design toolkits from Microsoft, I really highly recommend checking them out a lot of really good stuff in thereDoug Kim 19:35Inclusive dot Microsoft dot design, that's the website that they're on. Thank you, we promote and that's where like the original toolkit is there's a bunch of videos and guidance PDFs of what the new stuff on there and you know examples of how you know we've we've built these into products is these concepts.Hannah Choi 19:58So when you were creating them, how do you do come up with and kind of incorporate the five types of, of cognitive demands? Which for me are executive function skills, learning focus, decision making recall and communication. So I was just wondering like, how did you decide on those? Well,Doug Kim 20:23were you talking to Margaret? Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. No, you start.Margaret Price 20:29So it started with a pretty comprehensive, lit review. So looking at a lot of existing information from different fields of study, from psychology to cognitive science, to think about help us think about how do we frame this space? This is a really complex space. So how should we think about it? So we started with a lit review, then conducted hundreds of interviews with folks all around the world over a span of maybe two and a half years and 2015 2016. A lot of folks in academia to really deeply understand how can we think about perception, I can think about sensing and thinking, what are all of the different ways we could frame this? What are all the possibilities, and then we apply the inclusive design method to it, we brought in a lot of CO creators, we mapped a number of ways we could think about it, we started mapping the various dimensions. And actually, there's many, many, many more than our initial few. We prioritize these few based on the business opportunity for Microsoft, the opportunity for the world to have stronger impact on the need that we saw from people. And so all of this is grounded in evidence based research. And was prioritized based on where we saw the largest need in our communities.Doug Kim 21:59Yeah, and so like, I work on Azure, which is our, you know, enterprise oriented cloud services offering. And we did a lot of studies for how Azure works, or does not work for neurodivergent users. And so a lot of the things that we pulled out of those studies kind of found its way into the guidance that there's there in the toolkit, like decision making in Azure is, is kind of a huge deal like and you have to retain a lot of information to be able to effectively make effective decisions you have like dozens or hundreds of options to choose from to get a particular result that you're looking for. And so we wanted to kind of like abstract out some of these to the like, the cognitive types of functions that are at play here, and how we do or do not support them. So I think a lot of the some of the impetus to choose these came from, you know, the research that Margaret was referencing, but also kind of the experience of our users who are saying, like, this is where if I make the wrong move, I could be in big trouble. You know, you could write $1,000, as opposed to nothing. Yeah. So you hear that? And you go, Oh, okay, I get it. That's a tough call. Yeah.Hannah Choi 23:27Yeah. And if you can't confidently make those decisions, then you're going to be more stressed, which is going to impact your ability to use your executive function skills. Well, which is going to set you up for making more mistakes. So yeah, and that just shows you how important it is to consider these things for people who do not have a, you know, you know, that like don't have ADHD or don't, you know, have mental health struggles or whatever, you know, is impacting someone's someone at work, it's so important to consider that. And I love how you think about that scalability. I have how, you know, like, this thing, yes, it addresses a need here that everybody can actually use it and benefit from it.Doug Kim 24:19So I'm curious like for you, okay, so you're an executive functioning coach, very fascinating to learn how this kind of affects your work. Like one of the issues that came up for us was just consequences. Right? Am I aware when I'm going through a given experience, what the consequences of my decisions are? And if not, how do I move forward? So is that something that comes up for you like what, what are your clients telling you about consequences and the stuff that they need to be able to, like understand and move forward make decisions? You know, when the consequences are ambiguous? Hannah Choi 24:55Yeah, it's huge. And so much so much that comes out is confidence, the confidence to make any decision that they're making? And many of the people that I've worked with, have have spent their life feeling like they've been doing it wrong all along. And, and so to come to a space where question like, you know, like, I'm asking them questions like, what does work for you? What doesn't work for you? What have been the consequences of your actions in the past? And, you know, and and what do you kind of envision for yourself in the future? It's? Yeah, not really sure where I'm going with this. You're really, really, really, so much of what I do just real, I can really relate to the work that you guys have done in addressing. Yeah, the potential consequences that other people have to have in their life and the business decisions that they're making or whatever. Doug Kim 25:58Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to sort of like, basically understand, like, what the, one of the one of the key concepts in the toolkit is trying to try to understand what the cognitive load is, like, how much demand are you putting on the on the user? And why and where does it come into your experience? Right? And so these are, the aspects of the dimension is how much you're asking them to remember how much you are you expecting them to project in terms of the the consequences of their decisions, I want you you're expecting them to be able to act on their own versus in collaboration with their teammates, or co workers. And I think these are normally things that we don't really discuss in depth, we're just sort of like build products, assuming that a person is acting alone, acting independently, and has all the tools that they need to be able to say, make an informed decision. And so, I mean, that's not totally true. I'm being a little bit. I'm exaggerating a little bit, just to make the point. But I think that one of the points of the toolkit is to say, don't make assumptions here, options about what your customer does or doesn't know or what they're expecting, as they're moving through an experience. Build it in a way so you understand what you're asking of your customers, you and understand the level of demand that you're placing on them to do anything, because every experience does that. Right. There's something that it's going to ask of you, right to say, like, if you jump into a car, like there's a presumption that you understand how to operate it, because you've passed the test, at some point, we're seeing all that stuff, the minute you turn on the ignition, right, there's an assumption that you know that when you press the brake, that the car is going to stop. So every, every experience does that to a certain extent. But not all product traders measure that, and weigh that and say, what actually, where are we assuming before somebody even, you know, starts the car? Margaret Price 28:10Well, I love what you're saying. And to build on it, I think it's a really great set of points that leads to the recognition. You know, there's a lot I mentioned, at the beginning of the call, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum, and there's a lot of self-blame that can happen. What's wrong with me? Why can I use those sorts of thoughts? And I think that's where, you know, the worlds colliding and unlikely between what we do and a lot of what you do, which is, you know, as Doug mentioned, asking, what are the cognitive demands? And where are the mismatches between what's needed from the person and what the product is providing? And recognizing that it's not your fault. It's this product's fault. Yeah, this is not built in a way that's going to serve you. Well. And this is not about you. This is about the product not being built. Good enough.Hannah Choi 29:03Yes. Yes. And that yeah, that's, that's many conversations that I have with my clients is being like, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how your brain works. And this and unfortunately, it is not the system, the world that we are in is not, you know, necessarily designed for that.Doug Kim 29:25Well, I think that's especially true with like, well, I don't know, I don't want to get into kind of a waiting thing. But like, you see, that was neurodivergent. Conditions like so commonly, like I think societally, like in this is true, I think, pretty much across the globe, we're like conditioned to say, put the onus on the person with that condition to adapt. Yep. It's an experience that wasn't built for them. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the key premises of the toolkit and this extension of the toolkit. deals with cognition, which is that no, like, that's, it's not you, it's us. It's not, it's not you, like, if it doesn't work for you, then that's a problem with a product, right? It's a problem with the environment or the world that were created, never expecting you to participate in. Like, if it doesn't work for you, then we need to adapt it, we need to come up with systems that normalize you to an extent that allows you to function as effectively or better than anybody else who's using a product. And, like, puts the onus on us as periodic creators, to, to adapt to you as opposed to the other way around. And the fact that our systems up until, you know, very recently, and like without this sort of understanding of how things work could work potentially a lot better for our interviewers. And folks. It's, it's, you know, it just hasn't been built that way. And, you know, I think our mission, like the three of us together, and now you and everybody else who's like involved in this inclusive design process, is is to upend that expectation, and say, it's the onus on people who are creating products. You know, I mean, you create a product, this podcast is a product, right. And it could be applied to anything that anybody, you know, makes,Christina Mallon 31:25I think, people are starting to see this, you see the World Health Organization, how they define disability as a mismatch between a person and a design. And I think that is really key because, again, as a disabled person, I'm told, okay, you need to figure out how to do this or fix this solution. Yeah, and it's really taxing. And this is something that's common in marginalized communities.Hannah Choi 31:54Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was just doing some research on, on advocating for yourself at work. And, and many of the articles that I read, said, unfortunately, it is on you, it will, in most situations, it will be on you to educate your employer, on what how to, you know, meet your needs. And so, it's, and that's, that's with any marginalized community, marginalized community, right. It's it, unfortunately, at this point, it is, it is on that group to educate everyone else. This inclusive design, the fact that Microsoft is embracing this so much shows us that that, like, that's a good role model. Do you think that within I mean, I guess you guys can only speak for the departments with it to work. But would you say that within it, or in your experience? Like, Christina, if you need something? Do you feel like you're, it is easy for you to advocate for yourself? Do you feel like that inclusive design concept spreads to the advocacy part? And for Costco? Yes,Christina Mallon 33:14I'm definitely empowered to implement inclusive design, and that the entire company has a pretty good understanding the importance of it. But the current state of the economy, with our focus on AI, there's definitely more begging that needs to get done for resources around it. And I think, you know, that's why people in positions of power really need to advocate for this. And that's why when I started, Doug, and Margaret, could empathize with me. And were able to provide, you know, their resources to help create the inclusive design for cognition toolkit.Hannah Choi 33:58And, and Doug and Margaret would like, where did where did your strength in, in, in your knowledge come from? Was that just from your experiencing your experience of creating this inclusive design? Or is that something that you have naturally already felt before you got into that?Doug Kim 34:19Everything I know comes from Margaret.Hannah Choi 34:24Margaret, you're amazing.Margaret Price 34:28You're all amazing. Yeah,Christina Mallon 34:30we're all amazingMargaret Price 34:32 lots of listening and learning. And I as a generalist strategist, I like to learn there's so many brilliant leaders in this space outside of Microsoft, who pioneered inclusive design long before Microsoft got in the business. And so a lot of listening and learning to brilliant folks. And we can, you know, give you links For show notes too. Yeah,Hannah Choi 34:58Thank you, I was just gonna say thatMargaret Price 35:01A lot of listening, a lot of learning a lot of synthesizing just a ton of information. And wanting to communicate it in ways, as you mentioned earlier that are simple for anybody to understand. And connecting dots that might seem not connectable, I have a background in research as well. And so I love listening and learning and connecting dots that might seem like they can't connect. And I think, you know, to your question earlier about advocating for ourselves in the workplace, I think, for me, a lot of it came from not as much inclusive design as the work on myself. And I think you do a lot of this with folks that you coach, probably, but really becoming, you know, keenly self aware about my needs, and how to communicate them and boundaries and how to communicate them. And recognizing that communicating well. And communicating in a way that's going to serve me is the absolute best thing that I can do, rather than ignoring or suppressing what I need.Hannah Choi 36:07Yeah, and so much of advice, like going back to the idea of how you have to, you know, it is on you as a person to advocate for yourself, and you might end up having to educate your employer. But a big part of that self advocacy is, you know, like, knowing yourself, and knowing what your boundaries are and right, like you said, like learning how to, how to ask for that. And yeah, that is, it's a lot of what I do. Yeah. And it's so funny, because I just, just over the past year, went through the whole ADHD diagnosis and answered all these life questions that I've had about myself for a very long time. And, and, you know, working at beyond booksmart, it was, it was like, not a thing, and not a big deal. It was, you know, it wasn't like I had to decide whether I was going to disclose and, and, you know, there were already so many systems built into, you know, built into how we do things at beyond booksmart. Because, because we are in the business of supporting people with executive function challenges. So I feel very lucky that I work at a company where I am just automatically supported, and that there are lots of people within the company who, you know, also, like, have shared needs or similar needs, or even different needs. And so a lot of our training materials are presented in many different formats. And, you know, there's, there's many different ways to interact and many different choices that you can make whatever works the best for you. And I know, that's not how it is that many places. And so I, I really hope that these kinds of conversations continue to happen that companies like Microsoft, and other I mean, you guys almost have like a, an I don't know, if you feel this way, but as a very large company, like you have a really big opportunity to, you know, to be a voice for this. I, you know, I like I kind of feel that way, there's a podcast host of like, well, I don't really have a lot of power, but I have a little bit of power, and I'm going to try to use it. So do you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like that responsibility? Christina Mallon 38:18Yeah, I mean, I took my job six months pregnant with my first child, which is kind of crazy. But I knew the power that Microsoft has to empower people like be to be able to achieve their dreams. And I already knew that the foundation has been set by people like Doug and Margaret. So it would come into a very inclusive company.Doug Kim 38:48Well, I would say that, you know, something that, like kind of struck me as you were talking when I was was like the, the idea that you have power, and I think everybody has power. And a lot of us have this tendency to like even regardless of what position we're in, to kind of under estimate what that what that power is. And so I think if you're in this, you care about this space, which if you made it this far into this episode, you obviously do. You can exercise your power on one on one, right, you can help shape conversation and you can help normalize things. If you're more of like from representing the ally ship side of things, you can learn more, you can reduce the burden on your colleagues or whoever it is to have to advocate for themselves. You can absorb information like our toolkit, but any of the other like, you know, amazing resources that are that there are out there to help, you know, again, create this expectation. ation of inclusion as a as a regular and standard practice. So there we're constantly stretching ourselves to be more inclusive and to include more audiences that haven't been included to this point. So it could be a one person company, it could be two people working together to see, you know, examine how they operate, could be a soccer club could be whatever a classroom. I don't think that work ever ends. But it's like, I think we found that it's joyful work, you know, it's inspiring work. Learn more about human human capability, and what you can do to enable and empower that. So, you know, it's also fun.Hannah Choi 40:48What creative work, problem solving, and something that you said in the beginning, just connected me back to what you were just saying. And you said, I think Margaret, it might have been you, you said, you asked people a lot of questions, the CO creators that you worked with. And then Doug, you said, you made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, I can't remember exactly who said what, but but I think that's part of that power is not being afraid to ask the questions, and not being afraid to make the mistakes. And, and that is so scary for people, especially when you're asking questions about something that you don't really know a lot about. Doug Kim 41:29So yeah, you know, sort of, you're bringing into mind this, or like, you know, that era that Margaret was referring to earlier, back 2014, 2015. You know, I just started, like, getting used to interviewing people with disabilities. And I was interviewing this woman who has a low vision person who used like, an extreme amount of magnification, and a third party tool to be able to magnify her, um, screens to something like 400 person, and I was watching her work and just kind of like, making little comments. And at one point, the, the screen magnification tool she was using just crashed and quit. And, you know, I was looking at her and I said, and I just kind of chalk. Well, I said, oh, shoot, like, it's a crash. Let's, let's reboot that out. And she just looks at me, she goes, Why are you laughing? And I said, Oh, well, it's just the like, a little glitchy thing. And she just said, you know, it's not a glitch. When this happens. It is so hard for me to get this back. And my livelihood, because she was an independent business person, right, who worked on her own. She said, You know, my livelihood could be drastically affected. Like every time this happens, and you know, Margaret's done a lot of research, too with customers who have said a lot of the same things around things like, you know, improperly coated, or created notifications and interruptions. There's a lot of science around that, too. But at the time, I was like, oh, boy, I just got a big lesson. Yeah. And understanding, you know, how to empathize with what people are experiencing. Yeah, so I view that as kind of, like, you know, a mistake on my part, in terms of how I reacted to what she was experiencing at the time. But something that has, like, continued to, like, help me understand how to move forward, and how to understand how to work with folks with disabilities, or with anybody really, anybody? Yeah, developing more like tools for empathy and understanding and how to keep you know, going deeper into this work. So those are, those are really helpful. Actually, I still pretty much think that, you know, like, if she remembers that at all, it's quite some time. Now, she probably didn't think much of me. But yeah, she's been enormously helpful. Just that one episode, to you know, whatever progress I've made my journey along this path.Hannah Choi 44:05Yeah, and going back to that power, I mean, that shows like the power of, of experiences for people, we, you know, we never know the impact that we might have on somebody. And so you guys probably don't even see the the impact that your work has, has had on, on everybody.Christina Mallon 44:25We get some nice notes here and there. But I think having people with disabilities within the company is super important. Because you're able to do these really quick empathy sessions and you can actually see oh man, this really does affect when the small design changes made. When we look at power and power dynamics, most people that are making decisions sit in an area where they have lots of power, they are white, they are male, they're educated. They speak English, upper middle class live in, you know, the states or the UK. And it is so important to have diversity within the company so they can influence these power makers or become one of the power people. And Microsoft does a good job of that, and really looking at hiring and trying to increase the exposure to people with disabilities. But you know, here's the thing, everyone's gonna make a mistake, I make mistakes about disability, and I'm disabled myself. So it's always a learning experience. And if people treat it as a learning experience, and don't get scared to even interact with someone that disability, life will be better. Yes,Hannah Choi 45:42I worked for a few years in the, in the students in the, like Disability Resource Center at a community college. And, and I just loved it, that diversity of employees within that, within that office, and then the students that came in, it was, it was I made a ton of mistakes, I made a ton of mistakes. And I learned so much. And it was, it was just such an amazing experience. So grateful for it. Yeah, I we're actually, I'm right in the middle of preparing for a webinar, we do these community education webinars, and we have one coming up a week from today. And it's about, it's about how to manage like perceived failure. And, and we're talking a lot about how, like, exactly that what you said, Doug, like that, that felt like a mistake, but you are still learning from it years later. And how how when you can change your viewpoint from seeing it as a mistake, and something to trip you up and stop you and switch it to see us something as that we can learn from and grow from. And you can separate a little bit separate, like your ego from it and and then become more, you know, just more aware and more understanding.Doug Kim 47:10Well, you know, yeah, and I think that, like, if you're coming from a position of ally ship, again, that you should expect to encounter a road where you have setbacks and you take on risks, you know, in, in your journey to like, you know, help serve that community or even understand more about that community, you you're part of the goal, I think of ally ship is to alleviate risk from other people and put it on yourself. And some of that risk is, you know, involved in in making mistakes. I mean, if I look at whatever the embarrassment that I felt in that moment that I was talking about, it's not much compared to what the person that I was trying to understand from past experience every day, every time that you know, magnifier crashes. And so like, if a second if I can take one second to have an embarrassing moment, and help, you know, ultimately create a better system for her, then that's really not much of a risk. But it is, it is, like a lot of people like think about, like a potential misstep like that as a huge risk. In some ways it is. It's embarrassing. It's not fun. But it's what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some like emotional discomfort, you know, or the possibility of emotional discomfort, you know, off somebody else's plate and putting it onto yours. That's a very that's, that's an expected and also a that's an outcome. You know, you should you should expect to have.Hannah Choi 48:54My favorite quote, ever is by Susan David, who's a psychologist, and she said, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I just love that so much.Margaret Price 49:08Oh, that's beautiful. I love Susan David.Hannah Choi 49:10I know I love her. She's so great.Margaret Price 51:21Delightful. Well, thank you so much for having us on. Because yeah, speaking of executive executive functioning skills, flexibility is part of that and my, and my rigid schedule, I am gonna have to hop. But really, it was such a delight. Meeting you, Hannah, and speaking with you, and of course, talking with two people that I just adore, Christina and Doug. So thank you for having us on and for discussing this important topic.Hannah Choi 51:52And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to listen and learn about inclusive design and for having some patience with me. You can find links to lots of inclusive design resources in the show notes, and please share this episode with your family or your friends who might help it find it useful. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and please subscribe to focus forward on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Our very patient editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our thoughtful and creative content marketer is justice Abbott extra special thanks to Doug who brought Christina and Margaret onto the show with me and a million thank yous to the people at beyond booksmart who helped make our attendance at the ADHD conference possible. Thanks for listening

For many people (especially those with Executive Function challenges), managing money can be really stressful. If you can relate to this challenge and are thinking of sending a kid off to college, then learning how to plan your finances accordingly is something that's worth being really proactive about. According to the Education Data Initiative, average tuition and fee rates have increased 130% since 1990 - and that's after adjusting for inflation (yikes!) So, what can we do? Is there a way to approach saving for college that is less stressful and more effective than just wingin' it or waiting till the last minute? Luckily, today's guest is Shannon Vasconcelos, the Director of College Finance for Bright Horizons College Coach, and she joined me to discuss saving for college in a very executive function-friendly manner. In other words, she was the perfect expert I needed for this topic. Listen to learn from this college finance expert how you can approach this new exciting yet expensive chapter well prepared! Show notes: Bright Horizon's College Coachwww.getintocollege.comGetting In: A College Coach Conversationhttps://getintocollege.com/Resources/Getting-In-PodcastYou Need a Budget (Hannah's favorite budgeting tool)www.ynab.comSaving For Collegehttps://www.savingforcollege.com/Roth IRA and 529 Explainedhttps://www.savingforcollege.com/article/which-is-best-529-college-savings-plan-or-roth-iraMaking College Affordable: 5 Tips for Securing Scholarshipshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/making-college-affordable-5-tips-for-securing-scholarshipsContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Applying for college can feel like a monumental, overwhelming task - and that's because it is! There are so many deadlines, details, and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic Executive Function skills - but does it have to be? And then, once you get there, how do you set yourself up for success as a college student with EF challenges? I wondered how I could use the platform of Focus Forward to help those of you out there find some resources and strategies to make applying and going to college a little easier. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at McMillan Education, an organization whose goal is to help make the process of applying to college a little easier and less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at McMillan came to my rescue! We met on a sunny morning just last week to have a chat about all things college - both before and after acceptance. Keep listening to learn how you can make the most of this next chapter and if your kiddos are too young to be thinking about college, tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It'll be here waiting for you!In the meantime, here are some show notes related to the episode: Guide to Colleges for Students with Learning Differences (check your local library or school counseling office)https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Colleges-Students-Learning-Differences-dp-0593517407/dp/0593517407/ref=dp_ob_title_bkMcMillan Educationhttps://www.mcmillaneducation.com/WISE Advice on Educational Planning - McMillan's Podcasthttps://www.buzzsprout.com/2134583Students with Disabilities Preparing for Postsecondary Education:Know Your Rights and Responsibilitieshttps://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/transition.htmlSelf-Advocacy for College Studentshttps://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-students7 Ways to Support Your Teen During the College Application Processhttps://www.linkedin.com/pulse/7-ways-support-your-teen-during-college-application-ellis-mba-phd/Contact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

In this week's episode, I invited Eric Tivers, host of the popular ADHD ReWired Podcast, to join me on Focus Forward and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community and discussed some aspects of living a strategy-based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickle ball scoring, classic ADHD tangent. Stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric and about the high-quality services he and his team provide. Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis, and despite the time that has passed, the insights remain relevant. I'm delighted it's now October and ADHD awareness month so we can share this conversation with you all! Here are the show notes from today's episode:Hannah's guest appearance on ADHD ReWiredADHD ReWired Podcast2023 Annual International Conference on ADHDADHD Support Group SearchMy podcast episode with Dr. Jan WillerBeyond BookSmartHow to Keep Score in Pickle BallHow to Keep Score in TennisADHD ResourcesAdult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)CHADDBeyond BookSmart's ADHD Success KitHow to Thrive with ADHD After a DiagnosisEp 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDWomen's ADHD Wellbeing PodcastContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to share a correction from our last episode, I mistakenly said that I had an appointment with a psychiatrist. Jan, who I interviewed caught this when she listened to the episode and helped me realize that I actually have an appointment with a licensed professional clinician, who in Connecticut anyway is qualified to evaluate people for ADHD. I don't know about you, but I find all of these titles quite confusing. But I am so glad I get to learn all about this and share it with you. Anyway, I wanted to share again what Jan taught me that psychiatrists are great for testing people with more complex brain issues. And people with master's levels degrees, who are qualified can diagnose ADHD even without a full neuro Psych Exam. I'm still going to pursue the test. Because you know me brain nerd. I'm super curious to learn more about how my own brain works. But please know that you absolutely don't have to do the same to get the help you need. Hannah Choi 01:22Okay, so it is still ADHD Awareness Month and I've got some exciting news to share. I will be attending the upcoming 2023 annual International Conference on ADHD in Baltimore at the end of November. I am headed there with three of my wise colleagues, Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, and Wendy Craven. We will have a Beyond Booksmart table in the exhibit hall. And we'll also be learning from some of the presenters who will be sharing their knowledge and experience with attendees. If you want to find out more about the conference, check out the show notes. There's a link down there. Hannah Choi 02:00And besides being all about ADHD, this conference has a special connection to today's guest. We are back with another ADHD themed episode for this month of ADHD awareness. At the end of the summer, I had the absolute pleasure of being a guest on the ADHD rewired podcast. It is hosted by the very funny and very smart Eric Tivers. We talked about finding success in college when you struggle with executive functioning skills. And when we spoke not only did Eric convince me that I had to go to the ADHD conference, okay, wait a second, convinced his way too strong of a verb. He just kind of mentioned it with enthusiasm. And of course, I was totally sold. So let's try that again. Not only did Eric inspire me to go to the conference, but he also shared that he'll be presenting at it on the topic of technology. Bonus. Okay, so, back to the meat of this episode, I invited Eric to join me on Focus Forward, and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We also explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community. So keep listening to hear Eric share about the coaching groups and the adult study halls he offers to provide that essential support and community we discuss some aspects of living a strategy based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickleball scoring, you know, classic ADHD tangent, and stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric, and about the high quality services that he and his coaches provide. I really encourage you to check out the good work that he and his team are doing. You can also find links to his website in the show notes. Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis. And despite the time that has passed, the insights do remain relevant. I am delighted that it is now October so we can share this conversation with you all. Okay, on to the show. Hannah Choi 04:12So, hi, everyone. I'm here today with Eric Tivers, who is the host of the ADHD ReWired podcast and you do a lot of other stuff. So could you introduce yourself and maybe share what you do and short a brief explanation of how you even got to where you are today?Eric Tivers 04:36Sure, so I'll thank you for having me on. My name is Eric Tivers. I host the ADHD ReWired podcast. And, you know, we, I am a licensed clinical social worker. And I started ADHD ReWired back in 2014. When it was, you know, I didn't even know what I was really going to be dealing with it. It was sort of like I I know I have thoughts and ideas that I want to share. I don't really like to write, it's a struggle for me. So like podcast, and like when I was in grad school, I was really actually struggling with my ADHD. And I discovered podcasts around that. And I discovered this old, like, not even good quality podcast, but it was like raw and authentic. And I wanted you that one day, like that kind of stuck with me for a long time. Yeah. And, and then I mentioned, we launched the podcast, it first started as just a solo show. And then I sort of stumbled into an interview. And I was like, Oh, I like this way better. Because, you know, it's as trained as a therapist, like, I'm just a curious conversationalist, I guess. And it was, I just really enjoyed helping other people tell their story. And then sort of through that, I launched my first online coaching group and, and that wasn't even like a grand plan, either. That was sort of a, I had this idea. And it was, the idea came out of actually, like I was in therapy at the time. And I would like go to try to get to my therapist office, like about 20 minutes early, just so I can do the homework that I supposed to be working on. This is silly. You know, it's like I'm my clients, this whole working man, wish there something working just to have like, regular like check ins kind of touch points, just to kind of keep me on track throughout my week. And so I started looking online for stuff and like, there was nothing. There was no one doing anything like that. So I created that. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it was like, where it is now to where it was when I first heard the very first version of it. I don't know if you ever heard the idea that a few are not kind of you don't cringe at your like earliest stuff you put out there, like you waited too long to start. I definitely cringe at some of the first stuff like we did, like, we didn't even have like a concrete schedule for the first season of coaching group that we did. Like it was like every week, like alright, what's good for me, I Oh, my God, that's an awful idea.Hannah Choi 06:55But you know what I love I love that, that you cannot wait for perfection to start, just just start and then it will evolve into what it's supposed to be. Eric Tivers 07:06Yeah, so you know, now here I am. You know, we're recording this on May 5, I'll happy Cinco Demayo. And, you know, we're, I think I, we just released episode 480 something. And you know, and I have experimented, and I've done different iterations of stuff on the podcast, and it's been super fun. You know, and there's no way I would have been doing a podcast from 10 years. Now, if I didn't love what I'm doing, right. It's amazing. So these coaching groups, they just kind of they almost kind of life of themselves, like they know, they were feeling really fast. And then I started doing two coaching groups at a time the manager didn't three coaching groups at a time. And then I was burning out a little bit. So I scaled back at two. I closed my clinical practice to focus exclusively on the coaching groups. So we've had over 1000 people go through the program. We're on our, we just started at registration for our summer season will be our 33rd season.Hannah Choi 08:04Oh my goodness, congratulations. Eric Tivers 08:07Thank you. Thanks. Hannah Choi 08:07That is awesome.Eric Tivers 08:08Yeah. And so we've been we've been growing, I got a couple of coaches that work with me, and, you know, learning all the kind of the leadership stuff there, which is, it's way harder than I ever imagined it would be like, I gotta figure it out, then I'm like, no, no, no more to learn. So it's it is like, I'm going back for seconds and thirds of humble pie on a regular basis.Hannah Choi 08:33I have a colleague who always says, always learning and growing and I love that. That's so true.Eric Tivers 08:39Yeah. I mean, as soon as you think you, you know everything, then that's where you get into trouble.Hannah Choi 08:43Yes, that's right. So I love thinking about all the people in your that that you have encountered that are now probably so much more confident, and so much more sure of their own abilities, despite their executive function challenges, despite their ADHD, so congrats to you and everyone that works for you for creating that space for people.Eric Tivers 09:10Well, I definitely didn't do it. I'm I mean, I've had lots of lots of help lots of other people who do a lot of stuff sort of on the back end. And, you know, we have we have a very active alumni community too. And a lot of our a lot we have. And when I open up the alumni community, it's because people will kept like re signing up for the group to do it again. And and so people were asking, was there anything else we could do after this? And like, maybe, and so maybe three or four years ago, we started this, the alumni community, and it's been wonderful. We have a bunch of different of our alumni who are leading peer based sessions each week. And so it's really cool because it's like, I tell people, one of the best things I do for my own ADHD is this work because it kind of makes me think about it all the time after like, I can't go into autopilot. I think a lot of other people feel that same way. It's like when they and sort of give back and be in some kind of leadership role in the community, it helps them stay on top of their own stuff.Hannah Choi 10:06Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I find that as a coach, you know, just talking about it all the time with my clients, and, you know, trying to think of news, like help them come up with new solutions for whatever challenge that they're dealing with it, that kind of thinking becomes a habit, and then you just kind of do it for yourself or, yeah.Eric Tivers 10:27So yeah, so that's kind of when we have our we have an adult study hall, it's a co-working community, which, so that's, that's another thing we have been working on. So yeah, lots of lots of things in the fire and, you know, experimenting with different things. And you know, one thing that is that is constant is that things are always changing.Hannah Choi 10:47So something that you and I had talked about before we recorded was the idea of community. And I really think that, that you are creating that community with the work that you're doing. And I just, we just dropped an episode the other day, I interviewed two social workers and their coach. And we talked a lot about how important validation is, and how important finding your flock is. And so I'm sure through that experience, you are creating that in a way for people.Eric Tivers 11:28Yeah, you know, one of the things because people always ask me, like, Well, how do I know if I should do group? Or if I should do one on one? And, you know, I would I, I tell them, I have a strong bias towards group. Because there's, you know, I and I've done intensive one on one coaching with people. And, you know, I tell them that I'm kind of a sucker for, like, positive reinforcement. And when I see people doing like, like, profoundly better. To me, that's like, my big shiny gold star. Right. And with group there's, there's just something that's, you know, it's funny, I'm very science based person, but like, it's, I think it's just magic, what happens in group, I, because it is, you know, we see ourselves in each other, and we are so much more generous and compassionate towards others, others are having the same struggles. And then, you know, when we see that kind of what they're doing and where they're coming out, they're they're doing all these great things. And yet, they're being so hard on themselves. And then there's that recognition of like, oh, wait a minute. Like you have these these mirrors that are reflecting you, back to you. Right, except now there's no judgment being Hannah Choi 12:35Yeah. That's awesome. That's powerful. Eric Tivers 12:39that that me too, is super, super powerful. Yeah, and I always tell people to I'm like, I just want to be really clear before we, there's any, like, ideas, that I have all my stuff together, because I don't, I am working on all the same stuff, too. I mean, being consistent, you know, it's like, I get the planning and then I stop looking at the planning, right, I gotta come back to it. And so really, what I think what community has really done one of the strengths of, of community is resilience. It is a sort of a resilience incubator. Yeah, because we're kind of be inconsistent with ADHD, it's just, you know, it's and I'm not saying that, like, it's just is what it is, you know, but it's part of it's part of ADHD, the consistency. So what we can do is skip the part, when we've fallen off what we want to be doing, we can skip the part of beating ourselves up, and we can reach out for help as a ham struggling here. Yeah, well, we get when we can say it, when we can speak the thing that we're instead of like being silenced in silent and shame. I mean, that because that that shame piece it is it's significant, it is really significant. And when you're in a community of people who get it because they also live it and your non judgmental support. It's, it's really profound, you know, it's, it's kind of like a rabid onion pillar, right? If people come in for white, like, I just want to get my planning and time management stuff figured out. It's like, work on that. But keep keep an open mind, because there's a way like, you can't not deal with the shame stuff when you're dealing planning. And anything that at the planning of time management when you have ADHD. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's not just the planning. It's not just the time now.Hannah Choi 14:24Yeah, yeah. And that's something that we talked about in that conversation was how tightly wrapped our executive function skills are with our emotions, and how and how the context in which we are talking about is how coaching sessions can can often sometimes feel like therapy, and it's because you cannot, you just can't separate that. And so being able to, like you said, you have that mirror to reflect yourself back to yourself without that judgment is such a nice way of of dealing with those emotions. I'm not sure how to explain what I'm saying. And I'm sure you know what I mean. I just I love that. I love that. Eric Tivers 15:07Well, your executive, its executive functions are self. It's about self regulation. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:13Right. Yeah. And it comes down to it, you know,Eric Tivers 15:16I mean, it's, it's the self regulatory stuff that we have intentions of doing. And that impacts, like the things we're trying to do. I think like, like Russell Barkley talks about an executive functions, any goal oriented behavior that you sort of put out to the world, and it comes back to you in some way. So it's like, even if it's like, it's as simple as getting dressed, right? Like, your intention is, you gotta get up before you get dressed. Right. And, yeah, if you are successful with it, you got clothes on your body, right? Hannah Choi 15:42That's so funny. That's the example I always use. Like, you have some executive function skills, because you're wearing clothes. Eric Tivers 15:49Yeah, you know, are looking at like emotional self regulation, if you are employed. And you think that your boss is a jerk, and you let them know that and your goal is to get a promotion. And instead, you're actually shutting the door, because you can get yourself fired because you mouthed off to your boss, right? That ability to take a deep breath when you're in that that space. Like, you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard to do. Yeah.Hannah Choi 16:15Well, I, I haven't shared this yet on the podcast, but by the time people listen to this episode, they will know, I just got diagnosed with ADHD, which I am so happy about, because it has answered everything. And I'm sure this is the story that you've heard from so many people. And all of that has, over the past few weeks when I've been thinking about it, and I feel like I am calming my, I'm like giving my self a hug my past self. And like, you know, just and so and, and that whole shame piece. And the whole inner narrative really comes up a lot for people with ADHD or for people just who are struggling with anything, really, because there's this sort of this message that we receive from society that we're supposed to be just like, amazingly successful at everything all the time. And you have to like, especially as a mom, like you're supposed to do all these things plus, like have a really beautiful Instagram feed and be like selling cookies on the side or whatever.Eric Tivers 17:24And make it all look easy, right? Hannah Choi 17:26Yeah, yeah. And it's just not easy for anybody. And if you're additionally, you know, dealing with executive function challenges, if, because of any diagnosis, and it just makes everything a lot harder. So, yeah, so being able to being able to talk about it and to, and to address it in a really safe and encouraging and warm way is is really wonderful. So I'm really glad you're able to provide that for to your, to your coaching groups.Eric Tivers 18:02 It's so it's so interesting. First of all, congratulations on this.Hannah Choi 18:05Thanks. Thank you.Eric Tivers 18:07And you're in it's so interesting, too, because so many people who have such a wide variety of responses to Yeah, that diagnosis. And it's, it's really kind of striking, like how many people I've spoken with throughout the years who who've been professionals in the ADHD space, didn't think they had ADHD going. And then like, years and years later realize, I actually do, and it's so funny, because I have always like, was like, just thought that was a really like, Ha, what what would that be like to experience that? And I see it, because right now, and I have not gotten an official diagnosis. But I did recently take an online evaluation for autism. And I had a highly what I didn't mention is that part of my clinical practice, before I closed my clinical practice was specializing in autism. Okay, and so, you know, my, I have a 11 year old son who has has autism and ADHD. So it's like, you know, I used to speak and present on this stuff. And yeah, you know, in part of, and I was, I was mentioning at the top of the show, about, like, how, you know, leadership has been serving me some humble pie. And it because part of it's like some of the social stuff that I think I've been Miss reading and I'm like, right, and so like, I'm always someone who's always trying to do better. And it's like, if, and so what I'm sort of seeing a certain pattern, I'm like, okay, like, this is something other than like this than ADHD, like, I really tried to cultivate a culture of feedback in my community, with my team and yeah, I've gotten some little some hearts of your feedback, but like, thank goodness that some of my team has felt safe to Yeah, sure that I know. You know, it's sort of that that the only way I can sort of think about it as being like the the realization that maybe sometime Sam's coming off as an accidental a hole. And I'm just like, Oh my God. Yeah. And so it's been very humbling, recently something I'm still kind of working through. But you know, it's like, yeah, when we gain that self awareness, that that like, entry into a new space of awareness, that hurts like it. It is it is, you know, but I, you know, from the time I got diagnosed when I was 20 years old, I've been like, I'm this this sort of mission to keep uncovering blind spots. Because it's like, and I'm just understanding the concept that we all have blind spots. Yeah, right. Yeah. And knowing that, you know, that sort of like idea like, so if someone is not self aware, how do they know? Hannah Choi 20:49Yeah, I felt, and I don't know, maybe you feel this? It's almost freeing. I, as soon as she told me, you know, the results, I just felt this like, huge. Ah, okay. Now, I get it. And like you said, you're discovering things over the time, I have also been discovering things. And it's like, oh, that's why that happened. That's why I did that. And then I'm able to release myself of that burden of shame that I have been carrying for feeling so bad about that thing, whatever it was. It's kind of been like Christmas the past few weeks, I've just like opening up all these things. I hope you experienced the same thing with the air or maybe you already are with that. Eric Tivers 21:40Oh, I think I'll get I'll yeah, it's definitely a, it's like, hot, it's definitely been a little bit of a, it's like, I don't know, it's not like shocking, but it's, it's, I don't know, it's like, it's just humbling, it's what it's telling me where I can describe to describe her. And I was like, this feels very, very humbling. And just interesting. You know, it's, it's, if we are on, if we have that growth mindset, and we are open to feedback, you know, it's, I always tell people helping you to think that, like, the growth journey is a fun one. No, no, no, this is hard. This is our critical timeout for a little while. I tell you, you know, when anytime I have had big discoveries about myself, it has led to huge growth. And so I've always been open to trying to find those blind spots, even though I know it's gonna suck emotionally for a while. It has never, I've never not been grateful, in hindsight, for those discoveries. Hannah Choi 22:47And I see that a lot in my clients too. And I work with a lot of college kids and a lot, and what I've noticed is that a lot of them are still learning to be self aware. And they're still discovering aspects of themselves that they didn't know. And, and, and executive function coaching is such a great place to explore that it's such like a nice, safe, safe place, and so many different things that we can kind of test out and figure out and, and so much of my coaching comes back to asking why and so much of answering the question, why is becoming is by, you have to become self aware to answer that, why. And it can be really hard, like you said, it can be really hard to to admit, whatever the Y is, and, but that is the key to open the door to allow for that growth. And to, to be able to let go of whatever that shame is that you've been carrying around because of that challenge or limitation.Eric Tivers 23:45Yeah, it's I always tell my group members, like if you're not uncomfortable, like, lean in more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, you're not, you don't have to be sort of in that state forever. And it doesn't last forever. It's, it's sort of it's episodic, you know, it's, you go through periods, and then you, you know, at least for me, it's like, figuring these things out. And then spending years on on like, honing in the skills and the pieces around that, that I need to and then it's like, as you develop mastery around different things, then you kind of the process repeats like, oh, new discoveries. Oh, again,Hannah Choi 24:21Yep. Or, Oh, I just got I found mastery, but I'm sliding because of whatever and now let's discover a new way to get myself back back in the game and and to be okay with that.Eric Tivers 24:32You know, it's funny too, because, like, one of the things that that I'm that I'm actually trying to work on now is being treated less sarcastic in different interactions. I guess it's funny, I was I was talking to my partner yesterday about this cuz she's been kind of helping me through through some of this. And like, when she kind of gave me this feedback about my sarcasm, and I found myself wanting to hold on to like, like gripping. But start I love beings. It's funny. Yeah, but not it's not always received as well as I think you think it is like, yeah. All right. I'm gonna sit with that for a while. And you know, it's it's having that courage to ask others like, hey, like, is this been your experience that like in our conversations? Yeah, so it's having those those courageous conversations. I mean, that's really what it's, it's about. Yep.Hannah Choi 25:21And I don't know if you've experienced this as hosting a podcast, but I feel like I experienced that every time I listened to a new episode or listened to anything that I've ever recorded. Like I, I go through that, like, Oh, God, why did I say that? Or why didn't I say it this other way? And then But then I always go back and say no, okay, now you have a chance to, to learn from that and to grow from that and to step even more outside your comfort zone and to challenge maybe challenge what you how you did something before and yeah,Eric Tivers 25:55Yeah, you know, to me, like, I love absurdity. Like, that's just like, absurdity is my sense of humor. Or it was probably where I like sarcasm, but I just, you know, I'm learning to be more careful about that. But like, when I think about just like, brains are funny, glitchy and they are, like, you know, if we can, instead of being so hard on ourselves, like, why can't I do this, like, drive, we were talking before I hit record, like, I love playing pickleball I cannot remember the score during the game. For me, it is like to be in like one of those like baseball pitch counters and just like holding my other hand, butHannah Choi 26:35then you'd have to remember to use it.Eric Tivers 26:40And I always feel really at home when everybody else I'm playing with also can't remember the score. I'm just like, I think it'll be like, Well, what's your excuse? Because, you know, one of the younger ones there? And it's like, yeah, it's called ADHD.Hannah Choi 26:55It's not my age. Yeah. Oh, man.Eric Tivers 26:58It's it's funny. I'll, I'll say the score my head over and over again. And then one for one moment, I'm thinking about something else. And I forgot score. Hannah Choi 27:05Oh, my God, I feel you I just like relate to that so much. I just started, I started playing tennis and this a year ago, with my sister who's actually quite good at keeping track of the score, and I'm always like, I think I just need to play with her all the time. I'm the same way. I'm like, Alright, I got it. And I don't I actually and I don't even know which side of the court I'm supposed to be on right now.Eric Tivers 27:31With tennis is like the funny scoring it like, right?Hannah Choi 27:34Yeah, it's so weird. Yeah. And then if you play doubles in pickleball, it's even weirder, because then you have to say, like, if you're serving first or second, right?Eric Tivers 27:44Well, I typically only played doubles have, like, I don't, I don't want singles. I mean, it's a it's an amazing workout to play singles, because it's like, oh, my god, she has to be everywhere. I like doubles. So I don't know. It's but you're right. Because you have to say which, which, which serve it is.Hannah Choi 28:01It's too confusing for me. And we just play we just hit the ball around and be like, Yeah, we both won. Or we all win. Yeah, Everyone's a winner. Yes. What were we talking about? Speaking of forgetting things.Eric Tivers 28:22Brains are funny.Hannah Choi 28:23Brains. Brains. Yes, I love the brain. And I love helping people understand why they do what they do, because of their brains. And helping people learn strategies that can help them use their brains to their advantage instead of being sort of taken over by their brain. So like a lot of that emotional regulation is a huge part of my coaching. And, and I love just learning about it and teaching people about it.Eric Tivers 28:54You know, within that frame. There's this idea that I that I talk about my groups that, you know, if you're wanting to be successful, and you have ADHD, you have to learn how to bend the world to you. Because like, the world is not bending the other way. Like the world's not reaching out to say, Hey, how can I accommodate you? Right? Like, yeah, we get all this paperwork is really hard. Like, it's like planning this, you get it with paper, and it's, you know, your teacher tells you about it, you know, in the first day class never mentioned it again, like, right, we have to develop these strategies to really scaffold the things that we need around us. And be you being okay with that too. And that's such an important and I think for a lot of people a really hard thing because, you know, I always said who I am, we are not trying to get you to learn how to be normal. Like that is not our goal. Right? Like that is like that is our goal to make sure that that like you don't want that to be your goal, because that is like that will be a goal that you'll you're not going to achieveHannah Choi 29:57And we want to preserve your uniqueness, right. Yes. See?Eric Tivers 30:00Yes, yeah, you know, so whatever, like, whatever you need, like, just kind of figure out how to, you know how to advocate for it, how to ask for it, you know, when something that kind of informs a lot of the work that I do, and even my personal life was based on some work that I did when I was in grad school. And so it was around my dissertation, and it was looking at, what does it take for students with invisible disabilities and ADHD, learning disabilities, dyslexia, etc, to be successful in adulthood. And what they found is that it is not the diagnosis that is preventing people from having the same sort of measures of success compared to their peers, it's if they have high levels of self awareness, if they have self determination, and good self advocacy skills, like, if you look just at the sort of the outcome measures, whether it's income, educational attainment, just overall life satisfaction, you got those three things, when you have ADHD or something like it, right, you're going to do just as well, like, that doesn't mean that things aren't going to be sometimes harder, like they will be. But like, You got to be willing to do the stuff and make sure that you love what you're doing. Because that's another thing our ADHD, it's like, we don't really have that, that, you know, the luxury of doing work that we don't loveHannah Choi 31:22Right. Yes, yes. It's very hard to keep that going. Eric Tivers 31:27Right, right. I know for a little while, but youHannah Choi 31:31Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So much of that, that those those aspects that you named are part of figuring out, or you it's, you can find those when you have that opportunity to learn about yourself and ask those questions and discover the different aspects of you that yeah, they don't fit into this system of the world that is out there. And that, but then, like you said, That's okay. So let's figure out how we can just just embrace that and use it as a as a benefit and use it as a, you know, something that can take you to places that you might not go if you're more of a linear thinker, or if you are more of like a round peg in a round hole?Eric Tivers 32:19For sure, for sure. Yeah. Cuz it's, you know, managing life and you have ADHD requires coming up with 1001 Little strategies, like it really is. It's, and it's this idea of living a strategy based life. Right? It's like, when we were kids, okay, I'm struggling with that, right? What can I do? That didn't work? What else could I do? Alright, that worked for like two weeks, that's not working anymore. What else can I try? Right? It's, and if we can stay open to, you know, just being curious of what works, what's getting in the way, we'll get there. Maybe it's, I think one of the things that I think is helpful for us to remember with ADHD is that, you know, we want progress yesterday. You know, stick with it, like, you look back and serious of yours, and you'll see the growth. But if you're just like in the moment, like week to week, it can be really hard to see the growth. And if you're really doing the work, it can actually sometimes feel like you're doing worse, when you're actually doing better. And that's called a self awareness that is growing self awareness makes us feel like we're doing worse, even though we're not Hannah Choi 33:21Yeah, you know, something, how you mentioned this strategy based life. I remember when I told my colleague who is also the, the editor and producer of our podcast, Sean, who also has ADHD was diagnosed when he was 12. He said to me, I'm so surprised to hear that you have ADHD and I and he said, You have such good executive function skills. And that and I said, I think it's because I am exhausted from using strategies all the time. Like, all the time, I keep my shit together, for the most part, because I am constantly using strategies, which is, frankly, completely exhausting. And, and, and so often I find myself or have found myself saying, why can't I just do this without fill in the blank? And, and now I can say it's okay. At least you're doing it with that thing. You're not just like not doing it?Eric Tivers 34:21Yeah, and you know, and one of the things too, is is like, find me strategies, but then you got to adopt them are destined for to make them work for you. Yeah, you know, like, in our in our groups, we you know, we have a lot of these frameworks, but we really try to explain this as they think about everything we're sharing as sort of this is the sandbox for you, right? Like play with it and make it your own like you have this this worksheet for planning like you don't like the way that it's laid out, like, recreate it for yourself. So it like resonates with your brain, like break what we're doing. If we're telling you something that is different than what you do You want to do what's currently working? Ignore what we're telling you. Don't try to fix what's not broken. Yes, right.Hannah Choi 35:07Yes. Well, this has been so great talking to you. And, and thank you so much. You're actually the first person that I've told outside of my family, that I have ADHD but and it's not because of a shame place. It's just because I haven't. I haven't really said ADHD episode yet. And so I just kind of saving it for that. But it it's talking about community and, and, and hearing yourself in someone else's voice. I experienced the benefit of that today in our conversations. So I just like I said before, I'll say it again, I'm so glad that you're creating those spaces for people because I know that it's highly needed.Eric Tivers 35:54Well, congratulations. And it's it's it's super exciting. You know, it's it's just knowing that we have like, a hole that just opens up so many, like opportunities and things to explore that we can learn about when we have like, Oh, this is why we're, we're struggling, you know, yeah, great. Thanks. Because it really, you know, out of all out of all the disorders, really, I mean, it's, I think ADHD is one of the most manageable, but it could also be one of the biggest, you know, pains in the butt if you're not managing it, right, because it will remind you on a regular basis, you have ADHD, if you're not like paying attention to it. I tell people that we don't have the luxury to do left on autopilot. Like we will crash and burn. And if we think yeah, do like autopilot.Hannah Choi 36:40Yeah, I'm so glad there's that the stigma around being neurodivergent is really starting to break down and that more people are having these really important conversations. And I'm so glad that you have so many listeners, and I hope I start to have more listeners, because these conversations people need to hear them, they need to get that validation that it's okay to struggle. And there are there are options, there are questions that you can ask and answers that you can find.Eric Tivers 37:12You don't need to struggle alone, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 37:15So could you share your contact information and where people can find you, because I'm sure people are going to be really curious about learning more.Eric Tivers 37:24Yeah, best best place to reach me would be at my website, which is ADHDrewired.com. Since you are listening to this, you listen to podcasts. So you can also use whatever podcast app you're listening to and search for ADHD ReWired. And, you know, when we have our coaching groups, you know, our, I don't know, when this episode's gonna come out, but we we do them a couple times a year. In the end, they're intense, if you're looking for, like, if you're someone who does, well look almost like that boot camp style of like, Alright, I'm going to full immersion. Like, it's, you know, it's like a six to sometimes up to 10 hours a week, we do three sessions a week, you have a four person accountability team that you meet with twice a week where you do masterminds with, and then all the other stuff that we have available in our alumni community. So it's really designed to not just help you learn some skills, but to really, it's about, you know, the shame, resilience is about getting self awareness, and then, you know, having a safe space to practice learning skills.Hannah Choi 38:23I love that. And I have to put a plug in for your podcast. It's great. It's I love, I listened to a bunch of episodes and, and they're long, but the conversations are so interesting, and so relatable. And I love how many wide variety of topics you have. There's kind of something for everybody in there. Eric Tivers 38:43Well, thank you for doing the work that you're doing. This is wonderful. And thanks for letting me be on the other side of the mic. It's fun.Hannah Choi 38:49Yeah. Great. And I look forward to being on the other side of the mic with you as well, later on in the year.Eric Tivers 38:57Whenever that's on the calendar, whatever. Right now, so we have no idea when.Hannah Choi 39:03We have no idea. But it's happening. We know that yes, yes. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Eric. Take care. You too. Hannah Choi 39:12And that is our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And if you know anyone who might relate to any of it, please share this episode with them. I hope we get to see you at the ADHD Conference in Baltimore. If you go stop by our booth number 112 in the exhibit hall and say hi. Until then you can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we will share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Hey, we're back! I'm so excited to bring you the first of many new episodes in our 3rd season of Focus Forward. Considering it's ADHD awareness month, I wanted to explore something relating ADHD that we hadn't done before. In this week's episode, we're tackling adult ADHD and the life-changing journey of getting a late diagnosis. This episode is particularly special for me as it documents my own personal journey in discovering that I have ADHD (in real time!) This journey of revelation began with a conversation I had last year with Dr. Jan Willer - a clinical psychologist who specializes in supporting those with ADHD. After our conversation, I began to seriously suspect that I, too, might have ADHD. In this episode, we'll explore the difficult question of "do I have ADHD or not?" and the impact that getting a diagnosis can have on our life and sense of self. I hope you enjoy this one! Resources Related to this EpisodeDr. Jan Willer's ResourcesJan's books on AmazonADHD ResourcesAdult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)CHADDAdult ADHD ToolkitBeyond BookSmart's ADHD Success KitHow to Thrive with ADHD After a DiagnosisEp 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDWomen's ADHD Wellbeing PodcastContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18We are back after our summer break. Yay. Today's episode is super special. Not only is it our first episode of season three, but it is also our 30th episode. I know there are podcasts out there with hundreds and hundreds of episodes. But I just have to say I'm super proud of this achievement, and I'm so glad you're here with me today to celebrate. On top of all that fun stuff is also ADHD Awareness Month. In today's episode, I'm going to share some of my own ADHD story which all started when someone very close to me was diagnosed a couple of years ago. hearing their story got me thinking about my own life experience through an ADHD lens. I recorded the ADHD episode and have an excuse me had a couple of clients whose challenges I could relate to more than just a little bit of a coincidence. Dr. Sherrie All, the star of the Focus Forward episode 16 all about memory connected me with Dr. Jan Willer, a licensed clinical psychologist who lives in Chicago, and she has written two books for practitioners - Could It Be Adult ADHD?, and The Beginning Psychotherapist's Companion, I thought Jan would be a great person to talk with. Jan and I recorded twice, once back in January and the second time just last month in September. The first time we talked about ADHD and what it is, and then spent a while talking about my own experience and symptoms. In September, we met again to reconnect and talk about the post diagnosis experience, and how people can both support themselves or the people they love who have ADHD. So today's episode is all about ADHD. And because it's ADHD Awareness Month, I hope my story helps someone out there find the confidence to go get tested. As you'll hear it has been a positive and life changing experience for me. So first up is our conversation from January. Hannah Choi 02:20Hi, Jan, thank you so much for joining me on focus forward.Jan Willer, PhD 02:25I am really excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.Hannah Choi 02:29This is take two right? We tried last week but my, I'm a migraine person and my migraines got in the way. So I'm glad we're able to do this today. Glad I migraine free today. Yeah, so we are going to talk about ADHD in adults and what that experience is like for people and how they got there. And so can you share a little bit with our listeners about why about why I'm talking to you about ADHD?Jan Willer, PhD 03:03Sure, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Well, I've been interested in ADHD for a good while. And actually a number of years ago, a psychiatrist that I would refer to would start referring adult ADHD clients, to me just kind of out of nowhere. And at that point in time, I didn't know very much about ADHD in adults. And just as a little sidebar, graduate schools usually don't teach very much about adult ADHD. And so every mental health professional out there who knows much about it has taught themselves and gone to seminars and that type of thing. But anyway, so I started teaching myself about it. And the more I learned, the more interested I became, and, you know, it's just a population of folks who really are undertreated a lot of the time and a little education and a little help with executive functioning issues can go and maybe a little bit of medication can really go a very long way in terms of helping people feel better and feel like they're functioning better as well.Hannah Choi 04:16I see that in the clients, the adult clients that I've worked with, where they have experienced exactly that with a little bit of medication, a little bit executive function, coaching, and just like a lot of knowledge, it's really made some big differences. What are what brings someone what are the questions that people have when they come to say, like, I think I might have ADHD?Jan Willer, PhD 04:41Well, a lot of the time, people will come to me and they've already been wondering about whether they have ADHD for a long time. And many people who've had ADHD their entire lives, were not diagnosed as children. And it used you know, back in the old days, it used to be thought that if it wasn't really obvious as a child, and the child wasn't pretty impaired from ADHD, then a person who is an adult couldn't possibly have ADHD. Now we know now that that's not true, because there's a lot of folks who don't get diagnosed for various reasons. Maybe because they just had inattentive type ADHD, and they were well behaved kids. And so, and they were, you know, pretty smart, and they just kind of flew under the radar and their grades weren't amazing, but they weren't disrupting the class, and they were just kind of daydreaming. And, you know, nobody really noticed that they were having some learning issues. So a lot of the time, those are the folks that kind of end up coming to us. But also, sometimes people may have had some hyperactivity as a kid, but their parents, and their schools really recognize that they need a lot of exercise. And so they would get put into sports and all kinds of camps that gave him plenty of exercise and this, so they coped, okay. And they didn't have behavior issues. So, you know, in the past, most of the folks with ADHD who are identified as children were people who had behavior issues, and usually white boys as well. But now we realize that anybody could have ADHD. And, and I think that is that information has gotten out into the popular consciousness. And so people are soaking that up and going, Oh, wow, maybe I have that. That sounds kind of like me. I just thought it was a flaw I had, but maybe I have ADHD.Hannah Choi 06:46So something that I've noticed, just in my observations of people talking about, if they have ADHD, or if they wonder if they do, I have noticed. And I think that there is a stigma around around it around being diagnosed with it and around having those challenges. Do you see that in the people that come to you do, do they express those hesitations?Jan Willer, PhD 07:16You know, I think it varies a lot by the age of the person. Because it seems like, you know, young adults have are much more knowledgeable about people who are neurodivergent, and often seem to have a lot less stigma about that, you know, they understand that people is some people have ADHD, some people are autistic, it's, you know, it's not necessarily such a big deal to them. It's just more a recognition of individual differences. But for people who are, you know, middle aged and older, for sure, and possibly also younger than that, it kind of depends on you know, the environment the person grew up in, they're often did grow up at a time where there was a lot of stigma about having ADHD. And there were a lot of stereotypes about people who had ADHD, which were often wrong. And there may not have even been an understanding that ADHD lasted to adulthood. And so they've often just internalized a lot of shame about some of their life challenges that are very, like completely related to ADHD.Hannah Choi 08:30Can you just talk a little bit about what ADHD is for any listeners who might just kind of have like a surface knowledge of it? And maybe we can help any listeners who might be questioning whether they they might and then maybe some, maybe you could share like some symptoms or some characteristics that aren't necessarily fully known? I mean, that the name of it ADHD, like is Attention Deficit Hyperactive disorder, but like you said before, many people can have ADHD but be the inattentive type. So maybe just share a little bit about what it is.Jan Willer, PhD 09:09Sure, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the first type of symptom of ADHD that was really recognized was the hyperactivity. And you know, if you've ever seen a hyperactive kid, that's pretty obvious. I mean, that's a kid that's just bouncing off the walls full of energies, maybe really talkative. And so, and then over time, it became clear that a lot of those kids also had some challenges with paying attention, despite, you know, in addition to their high energy level and tendency to bounce off the walls, and then it became clear that there are kids who had the inattentiveness alone. They didn't have the hyperactivity, but they still had a hard time paying attention consistently, especially in school and that was kind of where it was the most obvious but, you know, sometimes that home to their parents would say do this or that and they just kind of lose track of it didn't really absorb that information, or procrastinated, which can be a symptom of ADHD too. And then, you know, as things went along, people started to recognize that for most people, they do not grow out of ADHD. Most ADHD does last to adulthood, not every single one. But most, for sure. And as they recognize that ADHD, lastly to adulthood, they would see that adults with ADHD had a lot of executive functioning problems. And I'm sure that your listeners have a good understanding by now of what executive functioning. So I'm not gonna go into detail about that, because I'm sure you've covered that in a lot of different podcasts. Yeah. And the they actually, many experts actually consider the executive functioning problems to be more disabling for people who have ADHD as adults than either inattention or hyperactivity. Yeah. And we'll see that too. Sure. And when you look back at people who have ADHD as adults, it turns out that the executive functioning problems are a lifelong problem. They're just less obvious in kids, because with kids, the adults in their lives, be it their teachers and parents, you know, other other adults will structure their lives for them. And so they don't have to do as much executive functioning as an adult. That's right. And often, when people who have ADHD go off to college or leave home for the first time, they may, they often do have a lot of struggles initially, because they're not used to doing their own structuring for themselves.Hannah Choi 12:02Yeah, absolutely. I see. And most of my clients are college kids. And that's exactly what I see. Every pretty much in every every client, like, Wow, a lot of things were structured for me in high school. And I thought that I could, you know, just keep up doing the same thing once I got to college and wait a second. Not exactly working out as I thought it would. Jan Willer, PhD 12:24Yeah, and things can really fall apart pretty fast. Because nobody's telling them to get up. And people who have ADHD have a tendency to be night owls. And so, and especially, and sometimes it's so extreme that they could even get a diagnosis of delayed sleep phase disorder, which is a sleep disorder. And so that difficulty getting up to go to things, stay up till three in the morning, hanging out with friends playing video games, whatever, you know, and then they don't want to get up until 11. And class was it 9:30? Yeah, yeah. So there's can be a lot of different pieces to the difficulties that college students can have.Hannah Choi 13:07I know a big part of ADHD for kids and adults. But maybe we can talk about adults here is the self regulation and emotional regulation. How, how does that show up? What do you see in your practice?Jan Willer, PhD 13:23Yeah, I mean, that is indeed a common problem. And about half of people who have ADHD as adults do have this emotional dysregulation problem. And what it consists of is, when people have something stressful, occur, they tend to be especially reacted to that. And it could be just kind of ordinary stuff, like somebody cutting you off in traffic, or it could be something bigger, like, you know, some family crisis or something, or, you know, just a minor change, like, you know, they were looking for peppers in the refrigerator, and they didn't have any, and they were going to, that was going to be a key part of what they're going to make for dinner. And so these stressors, whether they're big or even little, can lead to some pretty intense emotional reactions for the person and the person can feel irritated and frustrated and aggravated. And, you know, depending on the individual, some people have kind of learned to hold all that in because they've realized that other people don't react well, when they're next to somebody who's really, you know, having an outburst about a minor stressor, but other people don't have the, you know, ability, at least in that moment to hold that in and may have, you know, a verbal outburst or a temper outburst or something in response. And that can be, you know, really challenging for the person because they look around at everybody else and they're like, wait a minute, these other people are having stressors to, but I'm reacting somewhat differently from them. And again, this is sometimes where there's shame or embarrassment. Because the person then feels bad about themselves for having a strong emotional reaction when other people might not. Yeah. But unfortunately, it can be a part of their ADHD struggle.Hannah Choi 15:22That's so interesting. I didn't ever know that, that that how closely connected that was to ADHD?Jan Willer, PhD 15:29Yeah, it really should be a symptom that is in the official diagnostic manual, but it's not.Hannah Choi 15:36What are some other symptoms that people might not know about?Jan Willer, PhD 15:40You know, that's a really good question. One symptom that I actually see all the time, is that often people who have ADHD have a really hard time getting to sleep. And they lie down in bed, and they're ready to go to sleep. And their brain just starts going and going and going. And it's very active. You know, folks who don't have ADHD, when they lie down and go to sleep, their brain is kind of like slowing down and not very full of stuff. As long as they're not stressed or anxious about something, yeah. But a person who has ADHD, their brain just tends to be at very active all the time. And that's not true for everybody. But it's true for a very large proportion of people who have ADHD and, and their brains activity will keep them awake. And they may stay awake for an hour when they're trying to go to sleep with their brain just churning over all kinds of different stuff. The default mode network is a network that so the brain has many different networks of connectivity. And the default mode network is one of those. And they call it that because they people used to think that if you weren't doing something, then your brain wasn't thinking about anything. Now, anyone who has tried to meditate knows that that's ridiculous. Yes. Because of you not doing anything, which is what meditation is, to some extent about your brain is full of ideas. And yeah. So so that's the default mode network kind of churning up ideas and thoughts about your life and how we what's just going on with you what you plan on doing just any old random thoughts about your life. And that area does tend to be extra active and people who have ADHD, which is I like you're pointing out the connection to the sleep onset problem. Yeah, right. Also, that area is supposed to be kind of quieted down, when you're working on a task, that since that area tends to be extra active, and people who have ADHD, often one piece of their challenges with distractibility is that they are distracted by their own thoughts when they're trying to work on things. Right. And so they're really trying to focus that their own thoughts are interrupting their thought process. And a final thing that is probably related to the default mode network in ADHD is that people who, there's a little bit of research, unfortunately, there is really isn't enough research on the positive aspects of ADHD. But there is a little bit of research indicating that people who have ADHD tend to be more creative than the average person, and tend to be really great at brainstorming and thinking up lots of ideas. Hannah Choi 18:41I was reading about that. And, and the article was saying that it may be because they're able to not gonna remember the whole brain part of it, but they're able to make connections that might not necessarily be able to be made by someone as easily if they don't have ADHD. Jan Willer, PhD 19:03Yeah, absolutely. Sort of. Yeah, that thinks ability in that part of the creativity of the ADHD brain for sure. Yeah.Hannah Choi 19:10Yeah. Huh. It's interesting that if there's one thing that you said was like, not everybody experiences that not being able to fall asleep bit. So what do you think? When when, like, not everyone with ADHD has all the same symptoms? And like, why do you know why that is? And no, it's just probably because we're just all different. But it's so interesting that some people can quiet their default mode network and then others can't. Jan Willer, PhD 19:41Yeah, it is kind of fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think that part of that has to do with the fact that ADHD, there's no one gene that ADHD is carried on right there. There's a lot of research about genetics and ADHD and a lot of it on us Sleep is way too technical for me. But yeah, I can read enough of it understand that there are dozens of genes at least that affect whether a person has ADHD. Okay, and if so to help what degree? Yeah, because some people have a lot of ADHD, some people have a little bit and some people have none. So, right. Right. And that, you know, plus everybody has a different life that they've been through was raised a different way. And so, you know, sometimes I see people with, you know, pretty significant ADHD symptoms, but they have no problem keeping track of their calendar, because they've had folks working with them their whole life about how important that is. And they've really got the skills down.Hannah Choi 20:43Right. Yeah, I imagine, like so much of your about of how your ADHD affects you, as an adult, is decided by just the strategies and the skills that you've learned and the awareness that you have of yourself and the impact that your behaviors have on your life and on others. And with kids. It's harder for them because they they haven't learned to that. Yeah, they just haven't been around long enough to, to kind of know that sort of stuff.Jan Willer, PhD 21:19Yeah, exactly. And, you know, with my client, adult clients, I don't work with kids. I tell them that one advantage that they're bringing to working with their ADHD is maturity. Yeah. Right. Because having that insight into how some of these challenges of ADHD have affected their life negatively, provides a lot of motivation to work on.Hannah Choi 21:45I interviewed Nancy Armstrong, who was the executive producer on a documentary called "The Disruptor"s and, and that her documentary, really highlights, it definitely explores the challenges. And it also highlights the positive side of ADHD. And that's and their work. Yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great watch. They're working really hard to dispel a lot of the myths around ADHD and, and help people find the positives. So in your opinion, what are some of the positives? Jan Willer, PhD 22:19Well, we've already mentioned a lot of them, right? The artistic creativity can be one of them, out of the box, thinking of being more of a divergent thinker who's able to connect a lot of different things. I think that because of people having that out of the box thinking, they're often really valuable team members. And, you know, I personally have, of course, I have no proof of this. But my personal belief is that the reason that the genes for ADHD survive in the population is because it's so helpful in any group of people to have somebody who is really creative and full of all kinds of ideas and thinks about things in a really different way. And, you know, to some extent, that might be true of autism as well.Hannah Choi 23:12So it's really interesting talking with you. And I know, it was a conversation that we had the other day before we came on, and in all the research that I've been doing, and all the clients that I've worked with, I'm realizing the more and more I read and the more and more I talk with people that I really think that I probably have our head like had as a child and still have the inattentive type. So much of, of what I've read, and just things that people have said, I'm like, Oh, my God, that just, I feel validated when I hear that and so it makes me wonder, you know, maybe that was something that I could have gotten help with as a child and, and, and can still now like as an adult, find things that helped me. I'm sure that you've heard a lot of people come into your practice and say something similar. Jan Willer, PhD 24:12Absolutely.Hannah Choi 24:17Okay, so in the interest of time, and potentially embarrassing myself more than I'm comfortable with. I'm going to stop the recording of a conversation here. Right after this. I asked Jan, if she'd be open to talking with me about my own challenges. We talked for a while about my life and what I struggle with and why I think I might have ADHD. It was pretty eye opening and extremely validating. She encouraged me to get a formal diagnosis from someone in my state. After chatting with Jan, I set up an appointment with my primary care physician who is an internal medicine doctor. I was really optimistic on the appointment day but things didn't go as planned. I was reminded of something that Dr. Theresa Cerulli said about how internists will not usually entertain a conversation about ADHD, and will generally refer you to a psychiatrist, which is exactly what mine did. Feeling deflated because I knew a psychiatrists fee would be greater than what I could afford. I remembered my own advice to clients. What would this look like if it were easy? So I reached out to Jan again, for more guidance. Do I need to see a psychiatrist is a full neuro Psych Exam necessary? And who else can I consult besides my doctor? Jan assured me that a full neuropsych exam wasn't required. She explained that due to the shortage of psychiatrists available for ADHD support, other providers can diagnose it without a formal neuropsych exam. And this boosted my confidence to search further. And then I found a local psychiatric nurse practitioner online through psychologytoday.com, which is a great resource for that kind of stuff. We met for over an hour, she asked me all about my health history and my childhood, my college years and my coloring challenges. And we went through the adult ADHD Self-Report scale together, which was hilarious. I kept bursting out laughing at many of the questions because it was me but on paper, and I kept wondering "Was the person who created the scale living in my brain?" Initially, I wasn't sure I wanted to use medication. But after learning about the ADHD brain and how it works, I was more open to it. I remembered something else that Dr. Cerulli said, at least have the conversation about medication options. Whether you use them or not, is up to you but have that conversation. I also felt confident trying medication because I already did all the things you're supposed to do, right? I eat well, I get a lot of exercise, my sleep habits are good. I had created systems that work really well to support myself in EF areas that I struggle with. But honestly, I was exhausted, forcing myself to use them all the time and not being as successful as I probably should have. And honestly, I was being pretty mean to myself inside when I struggled. So something had to change. So I decided to try using ADHD medication. I knew I wasn't interested in stimulants because I wasn't sure how they'd work with the anxiety that I already dealt with. And considering my history, Sophia prescribed the non stimulant Wellbutrin initially, it actually worked really well. But unfortunately, it increased the number of migraines I was having. And interestingly, there is a connection between migraines and people with ADHD. And I'm actually having an appointment with a with a neurologist coming up. And I want to ask more about that and learn more about that connection. So anyway, I switched to another non stimulant called Strattera. And that's actually been working great. It's made a huge difference in reducing the constant chatter in my head until it quieted down in there, I seriously had no idea how much noise I had in my brain all the time. I've also noticed that it's so much easier for me to get started on my work and get back to it if I get interrupted. And I can also stay focused on my work for longer periods of time. And following through on stuff that I don't want to do is not so painfully difficult anymore. And I remember Bob Shae telling me that his meds make it easier to use all the tools he had already implemented. I agree, Bob, I completely agree. I have spent a lot of time reflecting you know, me, I love that self reflection and thinking back to choices that I made and things that I did that were likely because of ADHD. I've been reading and listening to podcasts and talking with people about their ADHD. And I am learning so much. I decided to reach out to Jan again to talk with her about what comes up for people once they've been diagnosed, and what supports will help. We met just recently to record and realize it had been almost nine months since we first talked. Let's check in to hear what we talked about. Hannah Choi 29:17So when we last talked, I asked you about my own experience with ADHD and I really am grateful to you for taking that time with me to walk me through that a little bit uncomfortable, and a little scary conversation and and it's just such a great example of this idea that when we step outside of our comfort zone we end up finding magic and and discovering things that we never knew or we knew about ourselves but we didn't like have words for it. And it's just been who I got chills it's really actually been life changing and I'm I am so grateful for it. So thank you.Jan Willer, PhD 30:03Oh, you're welcome. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I do find that a lot of people really appreciate knowing that they have ADHD. Because it has so much explanatory power for what people have been struggling with. And like you said, sometimes people don't even have the words, yeah, for all of their struggles. So being able to talk about it with a professional and have that person say, Oh, well, people who have ADHD often struggle with this, and this and this and kind of give, give the person the words and the ways to conceptualize it. And then they'll be like, Yes, I do that. And yes, I have that problem, too. And yes, that's so hard for me, really can kind of make a difference in terms of the person understanding themselves, and being able to communicate with their loved ones. And people they work with even the whether they come out about having ADHD or not, they can still say things like, it really doesn't work very well, for me to have a lot of interruptions when I'm trying to work on a project.Hannah Choi 31:13Yes, yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great point that you brought up. And something I wanted to talk about is that whole, you know, disclosing at work type of thing, because so I, you know, I'm very lucky, I work in a job where, you know, I wasn't even an issue for me to disclose, they were just like, okay, yeah, that's great. What's next, you know, and then, and, in fact, it, it probably really helps me as a coach to know and to relate with my clients even more. And, and so I'm very lucky that I work in an environment that is not only extremely accepting of neurodivergence, but also we are in like, the literal business of supporting people who are neurodivergent. And then you know, there's there's other people who may or may not feel safe disclosing that at work. And so I really love that, that that suggestion that you gave just then of how you can disclose your needs without necessarily disclosing your diagnosis. How do you support client, your clients who come to with that struggle?Jan Willer, PhD 32:26Yeah, well, you know, everybody who has ADHD is a little bit different. And so you know, depends on some people work better at home, some people work better in the office, it kind of each person has different situations where they concentrate better. Sometimes that people do better in the office that also certain areas of office are too noisy or distracting. And so they need some help with that. On occasion, I have written accommodation letters for people. And it doesn't always work 100%. But usually, they are able to do something that's helpful to the person. Like I had someone I was talking to once whose cube was right by the coffee machine. And you can imagine how distracting that would be for anybody, much less a person who has ADHD, and they were able to get moved to an area that was a lot quieter. And that made all the difference in terms of being able to be efficient at work. Hannah Choi 33:29Yeah, and I imagine a big part of it is self efficacy and being brave enough to speak up about it. So having someone like you to maybe work through a script, or just kind of talk out what an accommodation might be helpful. I'm, I'm sure that is a big, a big part of people's experience.Jan Willer, PhD 33:50Right. And, you know, people can kind of take two different approaches to that. I mean, one is kind of the official HR approach, you know, going in, I want reasonable accommodations for my ADHD, which legally is considered a disability even though you know, people can discuss whether they could consider it that way or not. And so that's one approach. And the other approach is to say, okay, to think about, well, how is my ADHD interacting negatively with the work environment? And how can I verbalize what my needs are? If I don't feel comfortable or the HR situation isn't optimal in a way that people can hear it and might be willing to work with me on it? Tomorrow, kind of informal approach.Hannah Choi 34:42And I bet when you have an like, I imagined maybe like before someone gets a diagnosis, they still are aware of what their challenges are. Maybe after they get the formal diagnosis. They're like, okay, that might give them some confidence to to ask for what they need there. There's an actual reason why they need that. It's not just that they're bad. They're, you know, there's a real reason. Jan Willer, PhD 35:08Right, and I think you're bringing up a really important point is that a lot of people, you know, like yourself managed to kind of fly under the radar their whole life. And they knew something was going on, they knew they were somewhat different from everybody else. But it often tends to be very internalized. And the person tends to feel like, well, I'm struggling, and all these other people aren't struggling, therefore, there's something wrong with me. And so that, you know, that, then they just kind of end up what caught doing what many people call masking, which is trying to pretend that there isn't an issue, even if they are struggling, and a lot of people can be very successful at pretending. But even though even though inside they're really feeling kind of miserable about Hannah Choi 35:59Yeah, there's a there's a, an internal cost. That is it's maybe not visible, but they are feeling it. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. That That reminds me of, we recently did a webinar about ADHD, and about for people who were newly diagnosed and are curious. And a parent asked about their child who was, I can't remember, I think he was like, older teen young adult kind of college age. So the parents said, he had just been diagnosed, and was feeling like it was a negative thing. And, and, and she was wondering how we could or how she could support him to learn about about it, and maybe see it in a more positive light. And it just made me think like, he's probably spent a lot of his life internalizing all of those things, then you find out, Oh, there's a reason for it. Oh, then this must be a bad thing. So how do you support people who are how can we even our listeners, if we have people, you know, loved ones in our lives? who have been diagnosed? How can we support them? In seeing that it's not all bad?Jan Willer, PhD 37:21Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways to look at this. I mean, one way to look at it is to say, well, you know, if you if you think about it from a disability perspective, which is, you know, one angle to look at things is to say, Okay, well, it's a disability that makes it difficult for this person to learn, in certain situations difficult for the person to work in certain situations take information in and at times, you know, all kinds of other challenges that can come up with that. But does that, does that have to be viewed in a negative and judgmental way? Right, you know, the brain is an organ to the brain, you know, can have issues just like any other organ can have issues. And so, in a way, that's one way of conceptualizing ADHD and thinking about it in terms of not having stigma towards a person who has an illness or a disability or something like that, because nobody deserves that, that's, you know, that's ableism. And that's wrong. So, another way of thinking about it, which I think is is equally valid, is thinking about it in terms of being neurotypical versus neurodivergent. And so, you know, when we think of people who are neurotypical, we're typically talking about a person who doesn't have ADHD, and a person who doesn't have autism. And so, those folks at you know, the world is built around people who are neurotypical is not built to accommodate people who are neurodivergent. And so that's part of the difficulty that people who are neurodivergent have is that it's just not, it's not built for how their brain operates, nothing is built for how their brain offers and the things that are valued, don't tend to be the things that the people who are neurodivergent have to offer. So for example, some of the things that a person who's neurodivergent have to offer our, the, their incredible ability to be really interested and passionate about things and just really dig in and get into something and understand all the incredible connections between they're taught that topic that they're into and everything around it, they're great at understanding things in a network kind of interconnected way. Whereas kind of in this is obviously a little over-simplified, but a person who's neurotypical tends to be more of a linear thinker, whereas a person who has ADHD tends to be more of a, you know, kind of a divergent, tangential type thinker. And also people who have ADHD are often very creative in some way or another, you know, they can be creative in terms of problem solving, coming up with ideas, brainstorming, they also can be very creative in terms of the arts. So, and they're just great at coming up with ideas that no one else ever thought of, you know, and those are not things that the school system was really searching for. Hannah Choi 40:45So help, helping somebody with ADHD who maybe has recently been diagnosed recognize that ability that they have, and recognize how they can use that in a work situation or school situation. Yeah, while simultaneously advocating for themselves to somehow fit successfully into that neurotypical system.Jan Willer, PhD 41:11Right, the neurotypical world. Yeah,Hannah Choi 41:14Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that broke my heart that he that that boy felt that way. Because, and maybe it's just age, right. So I, I found out that I was, you know, I got the answer to all of my questions when I was 46. And so I, I might, you know, I'm just like, just have more life experience, and I'm more mature, I guess. Right. So I was able to, like, kind of go back and, and hug the 20 year old version of me that, you know, didn't understand. And he is that 20 year old version of himself. And so he doesn't, he just has what other people are telling him. So I guess that's not really sure where I'm going with this, but I like, but it just makes me think of when you've been diagnosed, finding people who really support you recognizing your strengths. And, you know, and following your strengths, following your talents, finding a work environment, or a school environment that is willing and open to supporting you as an neurodivergent thinker. With an ADHD brain or an ASD brain, then, you know, that that would I imagine just lead to a better experience, like I'm having, you know, the fact that the work that I do is very well suited for me.Jan Willer, PhD 42:37Yeah, and I think people who have ADHD are especially well suited to professions where there's always something new to learn, there's always a problem to solve. There's always a new person to talk to, you know, and that, and they're really great at engaging in all of those new things that are coming at them and love, usually love learning new things. Yeah. Which I think is really cool.Hannah Choi 43:05It is. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so I was just listening to Ned Hallowell he was on, on a podcast that I really enjoyed listening to with a woman called Kate, I can't remember her last name, but she's a British woman who has a podcast called the ADHD, women's well being podcast, and she interviewed him on there, and he was talking about, and I'm sure he's talked about this and other things, I just happen to hear it on there. But he was talking about how important it is for people with ADHD to, to, to do things that, that they're really interested in and find a job that they are good at, because it's something that they're good at, or because it's something that they're interested in. And to break free from these, like, preconceived notions that society has, like, oh, you need to become this or that or maybe your parents expectation or, or your social circle or whatever. And, and this just another chance, another op op, another situation where a person has to say like, Hey, I might not do things the same as everybody else. Jan Willer, PhD 44:12Absolutely. Right. And doing things different in a different way. Doesn't mean you're doing things in a worse way. Hmm, I like that. Right? Different isn't?Hannah Choi 44:21It's just yeah, it's just different. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Jan Willer, PhD 44:27And, you know, often I'll tell my clients who have ADHD that it's important to work with it rather than against. Yeah, don't fight it and feel like I have to do everything the way exactly the way that a neurotypical person does it or I'm not successful. Yeah, do it in a way that works for you and your own particular brain. And that's great.Hannah Choi 44:52Yeah, just I have a friend who has ADHD and so we've just been talking a lot lately and, and we were talking about how Oh, how it's so fun talking with another person who has ADHD because you can get really tangental and tangential and come right back and other person just follow right along. I had a client this morning, she's like, sorry, I'm all over the place. I'm like, Don't worry, I, I gotcha. Gotta take a lot of notes as you're going, because otherwise I'll forget what you say. But, uh, mowing you? Yeah. And I guess that deer? Do do you see in your clients desire to connect with other people who have ADHD or to find a social support that way?Jan Willer, PhD 45:39You know, I think it's interesting that you're bringing that up, because I have certainly have noticed that a lot of my clients who have ADHD do tend to have friends who have ADHD, and sometimes even spouses, but the spouses can go either way, sometimes they have ADHD, and sometimes they want to be with somebody who's very organized. Like, they want to be with a really neurotypical person, balance them out. Yeah, exactly. But they do tend to really, you know, kind of enjoy that bouncing around. Yeah, seasonally, that happens when two people have ADHD. It's an interesting phenomena. Hannah Choi 46:18It's fun! We're fun people. Jan Willer, PhD 46:20Yeah, I mean, people who have ADHD tend to be full of life. And, you know, it's really and spontaneous and have lots of interesting things to say. And you know, that's cool. That's a good friend.Hannah Choi 46:35Something that, that I've been thinking about lately is the anxiety that comes along with ADHD and how, for me, realizing how connected they were was so freeing, and it's truly incredible how much less anxiety I am experiencing now. And I remember you said that you said to, you often encourage people to explore the ADHD diagnosis when they have it, where they have anxiety. And at night, I really can speak to that it made a really big difference for me. And then I think back to my childhood. And I remember I went to the summer camp, and they gave away awards at the end of the summer. And the award that I got, which I was 12. And now looking back on it, oh god that my poor 12 year old self, the worst they gave me was the "What If Award". And because I always used to say, well, what if what if this happens? What if that happens? I was really anxious. And it nobody said like, "Wait a second? Why is she wondering all the time What if?" And now I realize it's because my brain was thinking of all the things, all the things. And I just so when I realized that I was in the car today while I was driving. Oh, so I went back to my 12 year old self. It's okay. We get it now. Yeah, so that's been that's been like a really nice experience that I've had is being able to go back and just kind of forgive myself a little bit.Jan Willer, PhD 48:09Yeah, yeah, it really it does take a while to kind of turn over all the things that happened that were related to the ADHD, and put it all in context, isn't it?Hannah Choi 48:20Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's and you know, so it's been, like, nine months since we talked, so nine months of me, like really exploring that. And, and it's, I think, out of the whole experience, I think that is probably the most impactful is being able to explain a lot of things and, and really forgive myself, because I held on for so long, that, that I was just bad at all those things, and, and internalized so much of it, and I and I, but I was really good at masking it even to myself. And so it's just been, like incredible, but for sure need a therapist. Like, I don't think I would have been able to do that all on my own. I wouldn't, I would have been more afraid to go there without the support of a therapist, you know, like, walking me through it is it's been. It's been hard. And it's been amazing. Yeah.Jan Willer, PhD 49:27Yeah. So there's there's a lot of advantages that can come to having a therapist who is knowledgeable about ADHD, right? Yeah. Because they can help you sort through those issues from the past and get their perspective on it. Right. And they can provide you with a lot of information about ADHD and you know how the brain works when a person has ADHD. Yeah, what their common struggles are or what their differences are. So, so that's, that's really useful too, and it can help you work on and coping skills if there's things that you're struggling with. Hannah Choi 50:03Yeah. So you know what, before we go, what kind of it? Like, what's your top advice that you give to people? Right? You know, when they, when they come to this realization like, oh, okay, this is why?Jan Willer, PhD 50:19Well, I think it's the case with any, you know, cognitive or emotional difference that a person may have in that get, you know, knowledge is power, right? Yeah. And so the more a person understands themselves, the more they understand how their brain is working, the more they've understand how ADHD has affected their life, and affected how they feel about themselves and their emotions, you know, then that really helps them figure out how to move forward. Yeah,Hannah Choi 50:53Yeah. And that might take a while and might take a lot of hard work. Probably some tears. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again, Jan. I will be forever, eternally grateful to you for taking the time and for being so supportive. And I really hope that anyone listening can can find a Jan Willer in their lives, to you know, to kind of walk them through this whole, like, exploration of possible ADHD diagnosis. Hannah Choi 51:33I just like I like you heard me just say, I am just so grateful for this diagnosis now at age 46. And I'm sad that there was not as much education and understanding about ADHD back when I was a kid so that me and other people like me, could have gotten help earlier. And mom, I know you're listening, I just want you to know that I placed absolutely no blame at all on you, or dad, or on my teachers or the other adults in my childhood, there just wasn't the knowledge, the awareness and understanding that we have today. And I know there are people out there many of them women like me, who were masking their symptoms with coping skills, they were not so that were not so outwardly noticeable to others and didn't have any catastrophic consequences. But they were slowly turning them us inside into people who struggle to find confidence, and believe in themselves. So I am really hopeful for myself and everyone else out there who can relate to any of what I've shared today. If you can relate, please reach out, ask for help ask the questions. It's scary, but you got to do it. I made an appointment, like I said before with a neurologist to learn about my migraines and the connection with ADHD. And I also made an appointment with a more affordable psychiatrist who does full neuro psych reports for less than the typical cost. I'm very excited about that. And you know, as Jan said, knowledge is power. So I'm taking my brain health into my own hands and learning as much as I can. And I really hope that you're able to do that for yourself as well. Hannah Choi 53:11If you've been listening for a while, you'll know that one of our main goals is to hopefully help someone somewhere who is struggling with an aspect or maybe many aspects of their executive function skills. Well, this episode is here to maybe help that person find freedom from their frustrating past. By finding the courage to get tested, ask questions, learn about medication and strategies that truly can make a huge difference. It was hard and kind of weird to put myself out there for this episode. My colleagues and Jan both asked me if I was okay with being in that vulnerable position. But I thought about all the people who might be able to relate who might not know where to start and who might find some inspiration and maybe some bravery in my story. I also figured if Katie Couric, Jimmy Kimmel, and Ryan Reynolds can all share their colonoscopy experiences on TV, I can share my ADHD story with you on Focus Forward. Hannah Choi 54:10And that is our show for today. If you know anyone who might want to hear all this or maybe needs to hear all this, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love love, love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts and if you listen on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, please give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening everyone.

Wow, I can't believe it. This is the last episode of our second season of Focus Forward. We started the season off with Rachel Hulstein-Lowe who joined me to talk about transitions and how to make them a little easier. We explored memory, college students, grief, cognitive flexibility, and much, much more. You supported us by downloading our new episodes, reviewing us on apple podcasts and Spotify, sending me emails of support, and subscribing to our podcast newsletter. My heart is truly full from it all. Thank you! We'll be back with more episodes for you early this fall

Last week, I had a blast hosting another free webinar for Beyond BookSmart that was all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie, an Executive Function coach and ADHD expert, joined me to explore how the ADHD brain works and what the roles of medication, therapy and executive function coaching are within the larger umbrella of ADHD treatment. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches' favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with, and featured psychiatrist, Dr. Theresa, to fill in some of our expertise gaps around ADHD medication. So, today, I'm bringing you the audio from the webinar AND a bonus Q&A section that Amy & I did after the webinar (there were just too many great questions we didn't get to!) If you joined us live and just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to around 47 minutes to listen to just that. And if you didn't get a chance to watch the webinar at all, be sure to look for the link in the show notes below!For those who have been blessed with careful ears, you'll hear me share in this episode that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. Because of my recent diagnosis, this episode is particularly close to my heart. I hope you enjoy listening half as much as I enjoyed being a part of these important conversations and if you do, be sure to give us a 5-star review on the platform you're listening on! And last but certainly not least, thank you for being a part of the Focus Forward community. Here are the show notes for this week: Watch our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosishttps://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/u3pueh40rsSlides from our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosishttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/hubfs/How%20to%20Thrive%20with%20ADHD%20After%20a%20Diagnosis%202023.pdfWatch our webinar about Motivation:https://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/o3it96iuotBeyond BookSmart ADHD Success Kithttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022Focus Forward Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=by637tasziFocus Forward Ep 18: Flipping the ADHD Narrative: How "The Disruptors" is Changing the Way We Talk About ADHD (ft. Nancy Armstrong)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=wwh3rsdpbw2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gATranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Oh, you guys, thank you so much for taking the time to go to Apple podcasts and rate Focus Forward. For me, it really means a lot to see that little number next, all those stars go up. I really appreciate it. If you want to help us out, and you haven't already rated it, you can scroll to the bottom of the Focus Forward section of your Apple podcasts app and give us a rating and hopefully it's five stars. If it's not, email me, tell me why. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate you all so much.Hannah Choi 00:47 I had a blast hosting another beyond booksmart free webinar last week, this time, all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie joined me again as one of our ADHD experts. And we covered what ADHD is and what it is not how the ADHD brain and medication work, the roles therapy and executive function coaching play for people with ADHD, and the benefits of pairing those interventions for maximum success. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with. And this webinar was an updated version of the ADHD fundamentals webinar that we held in June of 2022. So today, I'm bringing you the audio from this year's ADHD webinar. If you listen to Focus Forward regularly, you may notice that much of the content is similar to the ADHD focused episode we did in October of 2022. In fact, I even used some of the audio from last year's webinar in that episode, I really hope you listen anyway. And don't report me for plagiarizing myself, although you'd have to report me to me, and I'm cool with it. So it's all just such good stuff. And I want to share it with as many people as possible in as many formats as we can. So some people like to watch video to learn, and others like to listen and still others prefer to read. And as a coach, I really recognize the value of honoring these differences in people. And so this is me making that happen. If you'd like some visuals while you listen, the slides from the webinar are linked in the show notes. Also, today, you'll hear me share that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. And so this webinar and that ADHD episode are particularly close to my heart. In fact, doing all the research for the ADHD episode last year confirmed what I had been wondering for quite a while. Hannah Choi 03:02At the end of our webinar presentation last week, Amy and I answered some of the Q&A topics that our attendees asked both with their registrations and during the live webinar. And people asked such good questions. So good. And if you listened to the Focus Forward episode of the audio from our Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction webinar, all about unlocking motivation, you may remember that Amy, Vin and I sat down the next day to answer more Q&A topics. Because there were some great questions we couldn't get to before this latest webinar ended, Amy and I decided to meet up again, just like last time, so stay tuned at the end of the webinar audio for the bonus content. If you joined us live and you just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to about 46 minutes to listen to just that. And if you missed the webinar, and you want to watch it, the link to it and our other webinar presentations is in the show notes. Okay, now on to the show. Hannah Choi 04:07All right. So hello, and welcome to our webinar "How to Thrive with ADHD After Diagnosis". We are so thrilled to welcome people joining us from across the US and around the world as we saw, and we have closed captions available. So if you'd like to use those, be sure to turn them on. My name is Hannah Choi, and I'll be your moderator for tonight's event. I use she her pronouns and I'm the host of our podcast, all about executive functioning called Focus Forward. So if you listen there, you might know you get to see a face to the name or Yeah, face to my voice. I have been an executive function coach at beyond booksmart since 2017, and I have coached dozens of students from elementary age all the way up to college and I also work with adults and I'm a mom of two kids who are 11 and 14 and I live in Connecticut. I am also joined by Amy McDuffie who you may recognize from our laziness versus executive dysfunction webinar around motivation. Amy, would you please introduce yourself and share your background and your roles with Beyond BookSmart?Amy McDuffie 05:14Yes, thank you, Hannah. Hi, everyone, I have been a coach and executive function consultant with beyond booksmart. For over two years. I use she her pronouns, and my background is in special education, specifically in behavior and learning disabilities, with students from elementary through high school. And I'm also a former behavior specialist. These opportunities allowed me to really experience both the gifts and challenges of students diagnosed with ADHD. Much of my work in the school setting focused on providing interventions for students, and coaching teachers on how to best provide support. I'm also the parent of two pretty awesome teens, ages 14 and 17. And I'm so glad you all are here. And I'm really excited to be with you.Hannah Choi 05:59Thank you, Amy. And for those of you who are joining us who may not be familiar with Beyond BookSmart, we have been providing one on one executive function coaching with students and adults since 2006. Even before that term executive function became widely known. And you may already know this term since ADHD and executive function skill challenges are so closely bound. But if it's new to you, you're not alone, I promise. Executive function skills are mental skills that we use to navigate our lives and get through our days. They include attention, memory, time management, planning, prioritizing, and emotional regulation. And many of our clients have an ADHD diagnosis, which gives us extensive experience in supporting individuals with ADHD or similar challenges. And today's webinar is an updated version of the ADHD fundamentals webinar that we ran last summer, which was hosted by Jackie Hebert. And that webinar was one of our highest attended webinars. So we know that this topic is really important to people. And I am personally thrilled to be hosting this time, because the topic is really close to my heart, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. And I've been doing a lot of the same navigation of new waters that many of you likely are. And so I'm really happy to be here with you today. So you may be joining us today because you or your child was recently diagnosed with ADHD, but maybe you just suspect a diagnosis. And if this is the case, we really encourage you to listen to the webinar, and then reach out to your pediatrician or your primary care provider for guidance on what to do next.Amy McDuffie 07:37Thanks, Hannah. It can be really overwhelming when you learn or suspect that you or a loved one has ADHD. There's just so much information out there. And it can be hard to sort through it all. But we find it can also be a huge relief to get a diagnosis because it gives you context for your or your child's struggles, and also a defined place to look for help and support, which you are doing right now. We're here tonight to provide that for you. So here's what's here's what to expect in our webinar. First, we'll briefly define ADHD and explore some common assumptions about it. Then we'll move to learning about medication options. Then we'll touch upon behavioral approaches to treating ADHD, and share some of our coaches favorite tools and strategies that can make life a little easier. We'll share some resources and answer some of your questions before we finish up. So please use the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen throughout the webinar.Hannah Choi 08:38Yes, thanks. And because we're not medical doctors - Sorry mom and dad! We will be sharing a recording of some of the webinar from last summer. We had Dr. Theresa Cerulli join us to discuss the option of medication to treat ADHD. Dr. Cerulli is a graduate of Tufts University, University of Massachusetts Medical School, Harvard Longwood residency program in adult psychiatry, and Harvard fellowships in Medical Psychiatry and neuro psychiatry, and she is a board certified physician in psychiatry and is on the faculty at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, and for the neuroscience Education Institute, so we'll hear from her later.Amy McDuffie 09:21All right, so you might be wondering just how common is ADHD? You're in very good company. Research from the National Institute of Mental Health, the NIMH reveals 11% of children and 4.4% of adults meet the criteria for ADHD, with males diagnosed at a higher rate than females. Now those statistics are from 2011. So we hope that NIMH updates their data soon. But with that degree of prevalence, you can see why it's essential to educate caregivers, children and adults with ADHD and help them identify supports to manage their symptoms.Hannah Choi 09:59Yes, and thanks to the efforts of high profile and successful people with ADHD, there's less stigma associated with a diagnosis. In fact, you'll meet many people who consider their ADHD a superpower of sorts. And it provides great energy and creativity when channeled effectively. There are so many great examples of people with this superpower from Simone Biles that you can see on the screen now, and astronaut Scott Kelly and so many others, and ADHD does not have to be a hindrance to success. All right, but all of that inspirational wisdom still leaves us with an important question. Hannah Choi 10:35What is ADHD? And what is it not? All right, so ADHD is a brain based condition that impacts daily life. And it often can affect motivation. And it often runs in families. And it has three subtypes, there's hyperactive impulsive, and then there's inattentive, which you may know as add the ADD is what it was formerly called. And now it is called ADHD inattentive type. And then there is the third type, which is the combined type that has characteristics from both. And ADHD directly impacts executive functioning. And ADHD is not a result of poor parenting. It is not a choice. And it is not something that children typically outgrow. And it is not a learning disability. And it's also doesn't have to be an immovable barrier to success and happiness. And I want to touch upon just a few of these points. Not everyone outgrows it. But with intervention, you can manage symptoms, and sometimes the symptoms just change over your life, because the demands on us change. So the symptoms can look different as we age. And ADHD is not considered a learning disability because it's a medical condition that, as we learned, impacts your it will what you'll learn as we will learn it impacts neurotransmitters in the brain. And research indicates that 30 to 50% of children with ADHD also have a specific learning disability, and that the two conditions can interact, which can make learning extremely challenging.12:10Yes, let's talk more about that for a minute. It's not a learning disability, but a medical condition. And understanding these dynamics can really help us empathize with individuals with ADHD. So if you attended our Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction webinar, this may sound familiar. So ADHD is characterized by lower levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine, affecting how the ADHD brain perceives both reward and pleasure. And this leads to a lack of enthusiasm per task, and a tendency to prioritize short term rewards over long term rewards. Another significant difference in the ADHD brain involves the default mode network, which activates during daydreaming or when we're not focused on a task. In ADHD, this network is more often activated constantly diverting attention toward unrelated thoughts. So that explains why staying focused on tedious or repetitive tasks can be such a chore with ADHD. It really isn't a matter of well, it's a matter of neurology. And that's why brain based interventions can be really effective for individuals with ADHD.Hannah Choi 13:26Yes, so true. Thank you, Amy. Alright, so now that we know what happens inside the ADHD brain, let's take a look at how ADHD can show up in behavior. Okay, so here is the top of an iceberg. And this is the part that everyone sees when a person has executive function challenges due to ADHD. The people around them see the top they see the behaviors that are problematic. They're forgetful, they seem lazy and scattered. They're sloppy or moody, they behave impulsively, and sometimes can even be rude to others. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Now remember that icebergs are actually mostly hidden under the water. And it's the same with executive function challenges. When we look deeper, we can see the specific skill deficits that people with ADHD can often have and that are causing the challenging behaviors that impact those around us. And so a person may have a poor sense of time or difficulty planning ahead, when that can make them seem scattered, and they may have trouble regulating emotion and seem irritable or moody. When they have no strategies to self monitor, a person can look impulsive, and students or adults who are too overwhelmed to get started can look lazy. And when they have no systems to track to sorry, excuse me to track their belongings or to maintain their focus, they can be forgetful. And when a person has trouble thinking flexibly, it can affect their problem solving and perspective taking and that can often come off as rude or demanding behavior. Beer. And as I mentioned in the beginning, ADHD can impact one or more of these skill areas. So you can see how it can directly impact our ability to manage everyday demands.Amy McDuffie 15:13Thank you, Hannah. So we'll shift now to the role of medication for ADHD. Many of you wrote in with questions about that, and we recognize that medication is a personal choice. And for those who are considering it, we wanted to provide some support there. So let's hear from Dr. Cerulli to learn how that works.Theresa Cerulli, MD 15:33So medications, I will say, it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would have I would think about it. And mostly because of the data. Looking at this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention, interventions, versus combined in treating ADHD, and the sitter. So the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, the medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies, meaning I call that "from the outside in" using strategies you learn in your environment, with some coaching, hopefully, and therapy, from the outside in, those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain. So initially, at least considering the combination of therapies, internal and external, so to speak, are, are considered them should should at least be considered. That's how we think about it. And here's our ADHD brain here on on the slide with the power switch in the frontal lobe. Think of the brain as a large electrical circuit, it really is that we're sending electrical signals when one part of the brain is talking to another part of the brain. So in the ADHD brain, all the circuitry is there, there's nothing that's we're not missing something. There's not, you know, holes in the section of the brain that's involved in attention concentration. But it just, it turns out that there's a higher level of stimulation is needed to literally turn the circuit on. And the reason that this switch here is in the frontal lobe this on switch is because that's the area that's mostly involved in ADHD, from what we can tell that area is under active or hypo active. If you look at functional scans, have somebody do a concentration task that has ADHD, and you scan them in a functional scanner, looking at what happens. And it turns out that that area of the brain that's used with concentration and attention is under active, it's too quiet. It takes something stimulating to flip the switch, which is where the medications come in. I get this question all the time. Why in the world would you talk about stimulant medications? For somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? It's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person. You want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize and plan. You're trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively. So choosing the right medication is the question we get all the time. It should be in partnership certainly with somebody who really knows ADHD well, and the primary care physicians are especially if you're working with kids, the pediatricians are quite familiar but all with adults with ADHD your internist may or may not be they because the stimulant medications, which are many of the options we have available, are controlled substances. A lot of the internists and general practitioners for adults are their little hesitant to be involved in in prescribing so we usually refer you to a psychiatrist and neurologist, somebody who does this on a more routine basis. For ADHD, there are stimulants. There are also non stimulants. The non stimulants have some similar effects in the brain. Not quite as strong, I would say Say is the stimulants and we'll go through them quickly through the pros and cons. Stimulants have been around for years and years the gosh, Ritalin 1950s There was some amphetamines available even before that in the 1930s not yet used for ADHD but at least existed so stimulants have been around for more years than I have been concert they've been well studied. They're relatively affordable because there's many options and so usually there's a lot of generic brands that are available which insurance is more willing to pay for so that has that advantage. Cons is that they are controlled substances. They do have the potential for addiction. If we have clients that working with when there's any concern around that we are really careful usually move that would be someone I'd move to a non stimulant is first line. Some examples of stimulants you may have heard of certainly, Ritalin, Concerta, and meditate those fall into the methylphenidate category of stimulants. There's a second stimulant category and that's amphetamines. Some of the names you may have heard of there are Adderall, Vyvanse and dexedrine. So stimulants, if that's the umbrella term, under stimulants, you have two subcategories methylphenidate and amphetamines. And then there's about 29 or so total stimulants if I wanted to make a list and but most of those 29 fall into either methylphenidate or amphetamines in some form, some are long acting, some are short acting. An example in the methylphenidate Ritalin itself and its original form that tablet lasted only about three and a half, four hours. And that was it, which is why it was so hard to get tend to go to the nurse's office at lunchtime to take their second dose of Ritalin than they needed a third dose after school and potentially another for homework. It was really kind of rough that up down on off feeling. Concerta is a long acting rhythm and it's still Ritalin. It's just a 10 to 12 hour version that you can take once in the morning and have it last throughout the day. So there's many methylphenidates that are short acting, many that are long acting, some that are in between. Same thing with amphetamines, the non stimulants, they aren't controlled substances, there is no potential for addiction. That is one of the beauties of the non stimulants. They haven't been out as long so we don't have as many available. In fact, there are only for adults, we only have two non stimulants FDA approved for treating ADHD. In children, we had three new we now have four because Quelbree came became available last year as another non stimulant available for actually kids and adults. So we don't have the long list of that we do with stimulants where there's I said 29 I think it's actually even a little more than that now. Preparations, non stimulants we're more limited choice, but they do have their advantages that it's not that they don't have side effects, stimulants and non stimulants both can have side effects. The side effects with the non stimulants are just a bit different. I already said that not addictive, there's no withdrawal risk. They're not quite as strong. If you looked at the robustness of response, you're going to get more effect over and above not on a stimulant over and above not taking a stimulant compared with what we call the robustness of of effect of a non stimulant. But it really should be tailored to the individual and discussed with your individual provider. Hopefully someone that really is specialized in ADHD.Amy McDuffie 23:41All right, that was great information. So medication provides a place to start for many with ADHD. But as some educational professionals say, "Pills don't teach skills". I know it might sound silly, but it's worth noting for the reminder it provides medication as we just learned can set the stage to make learning and applying new skills easier by turning on the brain's ability to focus, which allows us allows us to take better advantage of other beneficial supports. Also, because some people choose not to take ADHD medication, it's important to explore these other supports. So the other half of the equation is how you go about learning new habits and behaviors. Let's find out more about two options therapy and coaching. Both of which can teach you different ways of thinking about your ADHD, and tools and strategies to support the areas that you or your child find challenging. So therapy and executive function coaching work together to address the negative behaviors and habits that have been learned over time, but in different ways. Therapists help transform negative patterns of thinking influenced by living with ADHD and constructively rebuilt the way people feel about themselves. Their therapy can be a really helpful piece of overall treatment, particularly if there's self esteem issues, or coexisting mental health conditions like depression or anxiety that are part of the big picture. The longer that ADHD is untreated, it's more likely that there are deep seated beliefs about self worth, and potential that can be holding a person back. It's significant to note that a child with ADHD could receive 20,000 corrective or negative comments by the time they are age 10. Now that's fertile ground for feelings of shame to take root. We're not therapists, so we can't elaborate on the specific benefits and approaches to therapy. But we really encourage you to find a therapist who has experience supporting people with ADHD.Hannah Choi 25:56Yes, I know that my therapist has been invaluable to me as I figured out how to manage my ADHD and all the emotions that come with that diagnosis. So managing those emotions, and those negative narratives that come along with it are just one part of the puzzle. Because ADHD impacts executive functioning so directly, working specifically on developing good habits to level the playing field is really, really helpful. And that's where executive function coaching can help. So what is executive function coaching, it supports clients to explore their strengths and their challenges, and then refine their tools to manage their daily life challenges. And all of this helps foster healthy habits. And having a coach is beneficial for everyone, actually, regardless of your ADHD diagnosis, because you don't have to have ADHD, to have stroke struggles with executive function. And life can just be tough enough for everybody. So learning some new strategies is always helpful. And as we said before, Amy and I are both coaches, and we have been for some time now. And I just love how we get to teach adults and students, all those executive function skills like organizing, planning, prioritizing, managing time, and maintaining focus, learning to assess yourself and work more efficiently. But it's really so much more than just building on those specific skills and habits. Right, Amy?Amy McDuffie 27:26Absolutely. Yes, I definitely agree with you there, Hannah. I also really just value the strong trust and rapport that I get to build with clients. And I love those moments when I get to see a shift in confidence and autonomy. You know, really our goal is our goal as coaches is for clients to develop the skills they need in order to become successful and independent.Hannah Choi 27:51Yes, there's just nothing like it when we see our clients finding that. And also, everybody comes from a different place and has different needs and different challenges. And so what what I really like about that one on one aspect of coaching is that it can really help clients focus on their specific goals and their needs. So Amy, what do you see in your clients with ADHD when they first start coaching?Amy McDuffie 28:19Yeah, that's a really, really important question, because clients often come to us when they're feeling pretty frustrated, which is completely understandable. And oftentimes, individuals with ADHD experience much more frustration and failure than they do success, which ends up having a negative impact on their self perception, and also increases stress. So this can become a real barrier leading to the self-reinforcing negative cycle, and also results in less efficient processing. Because our brains just don't function well under stress. I know I've seen clients come into coaching with the assumption that they just can't improve their grades or stay on top of their work. Because this combination of past failure and unhelpful habits have really diminished their confidence in it for taking any steps towards making a change. And that's why it's really important to help clients with ADHD recognize their strengths. And as coaches, we can build upon those strengths and draw parallels between the skills needed to generalize that success to other areas. We also initially work on finding small wins and help clients recognize the benefits from these changes, which then leads to greater self confidence. And this increase in self-confidence and feelings of success then became motivating to build upon this habits and ends up creating a positive cycle of success that can really snowball into some major changes.Hannah Choi 29:51Yes, it's so it's just so great to see that happening. So let's talk about some of the specific tools and strategies that we coaches use to teach people with have ADHD, or just executive function challenges to make the life a little easier. So a common common common executive function skill challenge area for people with ADHD. And actually, I would say for most everybody is planning, prioritizing and time management. And so let's start with that time management. One helpful strategy is using timers and then blocking out your time, we really liked the Pomodoro Technique, which you may have heard of before, and it involves setting a timer for a focused work period, then that's usually about 25 minutes, the brain doesn't really like to work longer, in general. So 25 minutes is often a good amount of time. And then after the timer goes off, you take a five minute break, make sure you set a time and mercy or five minute break doesn't turn into an hour, and then restart that cycle. And then if you're finding it difficult to get back to work, after the break, you can try stretching or getting up and walking around having a snack or a drink, or just maybe switching to a different activity temporarily. And when prioritizing what you're going to work on in those blocks of time, some people like to decide ahead of time, what they're going to work on, based on the difficulty of the task or its urgency, and then others like to start with what they're feeling most motivated to work on. And it really just depends on what works best for you. And as all tools. And what we really say to all of our clients all the time is we really, really want you to try things out, and then see what works best for you. And as a person with ADHD, the way that you do things might look different from the way everyone else does. And I'm here to tell you that that is okay. And a tool that we like to use for planning is called peak performance. And what peak performance does it helps you to learn to pay attention to when you're most productive. And so this can give you some insights on how to schedule your days. So if you tend to get tired in the afternoons, I think that's pretty standard for most people, scheduling a focus to work session in the afternoon is not maybe a realistic expectation. And if you have a hard time winding down after school, jumping right into homework when you first get home might be stressful and unproductive.Amy McDuffie 32:17Yes, thank you so much, Hannah. I totally agree it's so important to recognize those peak performance times during the day. And I think it's also really helpful to determine why the task is important to you, you know, to remind yourself of the potential benefits, which may not always seem immediate, but could have some greater benefit down the road. And this can really help boost motivation for taking the steps to get started. Some other strategies that can help with focus include things like taking notes, using checklists, asking questions, and just writing information down in your own words. It's really about creating opportunities for engagement and active participation whenever possible. And some people find it's also helpful to drink water or to gum, also to use alternate seating or even stand and to create opportunities for movement. And this is definitely something to consider in the school environment where students do a lot of sitting.Hannah Choi 33:21I also wanted to touch on some strategies that can help remember help with remembering to take your medication. And this could be ADHD medication or any other prescriptions you might have. Memory can be a big challenge area for people with ADHD. I know it is my kryptonite. We suggest setting up automatic refills for prescriptions that allow this and adding a reminder in your calendar for the following month when you receive this month supply. And you can create a recurring alarm as a reminder to take your meds or and then also like keep them in something like near something that you use daily, maybe by your planner or bedside table or the kitchen counter. And ordering a three month supply when possible. You can't do this without medications can reduce how often you need to reorder, which is really helpful. And if the current Adderall shortage affects you, being proactive is crucial. Your pharmacist may need to collaborate with other pharmacies to source refills, and finding a cooperative pharmacy will make things much easier. Let's see. All right. I'm gonna go with this one. Let's see. How do you know when a teen is being lazy versus when it's ADHD? This sounds very familiar to me. Amy. Does it sound like that to you?Amy McDuffie 34:48It's that's a that's a tough question to be honest. Yeah, I'm happy to start out on that one. Yeah. I you know, coming from you know, a behavioral behavioral person Active, excuse me, I really like to find out, you know, where the problem issue is, and also, you know, help determine why that's happening. So I feel like, that's a really important step here. Like, you know, how, how is this child being impacted? And, you know, why is that occurring? Because I do think that, you know, behavior serves a function. And I think we need to determine that before we can identify, you know, if it's ADHD related, which it very well could be, or if it's more of a behavioral issue. So, I don't know, Hannah, what are your thoughts on that?Hannah Choi 35:39Yeah, well, it reminds me of the last webinar that we, that we both hosted back in May, where it was actually the topic of the webinar. And, and, and we, we do like what like you just said, it's, it's, I mean, I would say it's not laziness. It can feel that way. As the parent, I can very much feel that way. It can also feel that way, as a person with ADHD, sometimes I find myself, I like catch myself thinking, I'm being really lazy. And then I realized, like, wait a second, I'm just not, I'm not figuring out why. And I'm not figuring out a tool to help me get past that what feels like a laziness barrier. I do know that a lot of screen time can deplete what little dopamine people with ADHD already have. So extended amounts of screen time can can make it feel like everything else is really boring, which can impact your motivation. So you know, if there's, you might want to have a discussion with yourself, if you're the person who's experiencing that, or with your partner or with your child, if, if there might be some dopamine depletion going on from a lot of screentime, which is totally normal. Everybody, does it. I'm not at all saying is there's anything wrong with it, but it can be, there can be a connection of it there. So yeah, all right. Um, let's see. Oh, here we go. Can you give an example of how ADHD can be a superpower? I would like to take that one.Amy McDuffie 37:20Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 37:24So that Default Mode Network section that you were talking you and Dr. Cerulli were talking about earlier is, is it's both a challenge and also a superpower. So even while I'm talking right now, I have like a lot of ideas going on in my head. And what I'm doing is like making all these connections between topics. And I feel like I'm really good at synthesizing information. Because I have this deep, I even I'm focusing on talking right now to all of you, I have this default mode network that is like susceptible, making all these connections out here. And I feel like it gives me some really creative ideas. And I also feel like it really helps me as a podcast host. Because I feel like it helps me come up with some really cool questions and make connections that a more linear thinker might not make. It does require extra effort to stay focused and to kind of ignore that default mode network when I when I really need to focus. So it's a it's a challenge, and it's also a superpower. And also, there's just a lot of energy behind the things that people with ADHD are really interested in. So I think that that is, you know, some of the most successful CEOs in the world have ADHD. What about you, Amy, what do you see in your clients are the students that you used to work with?Amy McDuffie 38:46I really, I really value the creativity that I feel like many individuals with ADHD have. And you mentioned, Hannah, you know, the energy and I think that's, that's such an important part that to frame it as a positive. And, you know, that kind of goes, you know, really into, like, the dialogue about ADHD that we really should reframe it as, you know, as a positive and look at, you know, you know, the gifts that ADHD can bring for individuals.Hannah Choi 39:19Yep, I agree. Okay, here is a great question. I'm so glad somebody asked this. How does mood play into executive functioning with my daughter who has to attempt inattentive ADHD getting into the frame of mind to do anything is a big challenge. Yeah, so just to get a little brain nerdy. So our executive function skills reside in our frontal lobe or prefrontal cortex which is right behind our foreheads. And we can only really access them when we are at rest and digest when our body when we're not stressed out. We're not upset we're not anxious. And so if you, if you already are struggling with executive functioning, which a person with ADHD does, and also one of those really big, important executive function skills in there that do that does really challenge people with ADHD is emotional regulation. So regulating your emotions so that you can stay up in the front part of your brain, the top part of your brain where your executive function skills are is a huge part of success. Right? Like, if you already have trouble accessing them, and your emotions are not being managed, then it makes it even harder to get started even harder to get over the anxiety that you might have or the frustration you might feel or the fear you might have for what you're going to work on.Amy McDuffie 40:45Yeah, absolutely. Hannah, I mean, it really that emotional regulation or self regulation piece, it really is the starting point, you know, of things to focus on and then to work on building strategies from there.Hannah Choi 41:00Yeah, yep. Somebody asked about screen time. We could literally talk about screen time all night.Amy McDuffie 41:07Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's, that's such an important question. Because, you know, it's one that we all we all live. Yeah. So I'm, if that's okay, Hannah, I'm happy to share. Okay. So this is something that I've, you know, that I've actually been working on with a client, and, you know, having two teenagers myself, it's something that we address in our own home as well. And I feel like, you know, for me, the approach that I like to take is to really look at, you know, how we spend our time, so, you know, how your kids are spending their time. And, you know, really what they're missing, you know, are there things that they have enjoyed doing in their lives, their hobbies, other things that might be sacrificed, if they're spending tons of time on the screen. So I like to, you know, kind of approach things from that angle in terms of, you know, what else could you be doing with your time, and then, I love the approach in my own house of, you know, taking the, the adolescent need for independence and autonomy. And, you know, really talking with my kiddos about, you know, are you in control of your phone? Or are you allowing your phone to control you and, you know, taking that approach and teaching them about, you know, the intention of all of the the apps and, you know, wanting to, you know, maintain our attention and take our time away. So, those are just some approaches that I use, you know, in my own house and with with my client as well. How about you, Hannah?Hannah Choi 42:44Yeah, I really love that last point that you made, because learning to, to reflect on our own experience, and then take what we've learned, and then apply it to our life to make positive change is is such an important skill to learn as a teen because you're soon going to be an adult and not have your parents around to help you monitor all that. So learning that self awareness, and just self control is so great. So I love that. I love that you mentioned that. Yeah, I got to interview Dr. Clifford Sussman, who is a psychiatrist who specializes in screen addiction. And he had some really, really great tips for, like you said, working with your, with your child, your teen to, to, you know, work together to come up with a potential solution for you know, setting reasonable limits, while also giving them that autonomy and independence that they do crave. And they do need because they need to develop that skill for success in life outside of, you know, our safe and cozy homes. And then he also talked a lot about See, here's where my memory is... so anyway, just listen to the episode!Amy McDuffie 44:06That is a great episode, Hannah. That's one of my favorites.Hannah Choi 44:12We are live folks, we are live. Here's one. How can you tell if it is anxiety or ADHD? Oh, whoever wrote that? I feel Yeah, I feel you. What do you see in your clients? Amy?Amy McDuffie 44:28Oh, wow. I honestly he and I often see both of those in conjunction and, you know, the symptoms of anxiety and ADHD. There's definitely some overlap there. And you know, we talked about the you know, the cycle of failure and I what I have seen is when clients expect have that experience of past failure, it causes more anxiety and that anxiety you know, leads to avoidance with Whether it's for, you know, completing assignments or the thing they have to do, and it just, it does create that ongoing cycle. So it's, it's hard for me to separate the two, honestly, when I think about the work that I do with my clients, because I do see it often together. How about you?Hannah Choi 45:18Yep. Yep, I agree. I mean, I agree personally, that is, has been my experience. And I also see it in my clients as well. I know, for me, personally, I have a lot of anxiety around forgetting things, because memory is my most challenged area. So I am, I am often anxious that I am, you know, forgetting an important appointment or forgetting to do something that I told someone I would do. And so I have to use a lot of strategies to support myself there and I don't succeed every time. I have recently double booked myself. And so you know, it happens. But I encourage you to explore both. And to, like Amy said, it's hard to separate them, I do think it's pretty common to have both. And, and also, like, maybe we even internalized this as a child, you know, you you like all those corrective messages we heard, you know, we talked about earlier, it's, you know, when you hear that over your over the years and years, it's, it's hard not to come a little anxious about that. Hannah Choi 46:20Okay, so this is where we ended our Q&A section of the webinar. Now keep listening to hear the rest of the conversation that I recorded with Amy the next morning. And in keeping with my goal of authenticity, you can hear some sounds of daily life in the background of my recording. My mother in law, who I love dearly, did not realize I was recording. Good morning, Amy.Amy McDuffie 46:46Hey, good morning.Hannah Choi 46:48Thanks for coming back. It's not too early, but it is the morning, but I appreciate the quick turnover. Amy McDuffie 46:56Yeah, absolutely.Hannah Choi 46:58That was so fun last night. I'm so glad we got to do that again.Amy McDuffie 47:01Yeah, me too. I really, I really enjoyed that I could talk about, you know, ADHD is something I could talk about all day. So.Hannah Choi 47:10Okay, well, then I'm glad we're talking about it. So I was laughing so hard internally, because as you know, every time we were practicing, I kept almost I kept saying not almost saying I kept saying laziness versus execution webinar. Not laziness versus executive dysfunction webinars. SoAmy McDuffie 47:31yeah, that would be a different webinar, for sure. It'll be different. Yes, exactly. I mean, that would that would be a different source of motivation, for sure. SoHannah Choi 47:51All right, so yeah, so I was very proud of myself control and yours as well, because I know you were wondering if I was gonna say it?Amy McDuffie 47:59Well, and I was trying not to think about it too much, because then I didn't want to internalize it and say it myself. So I feel like we did. We did well, with that. We did. We did. We said the word.Hannah Choi 48:13 All right, let's dive into some of these questions that are just so good. I love. I just love how thoughtful everyone is. And so some of these questions were submitted during our live Q&A. And some of them were submitted when people registered for the webinar. So we've just kind of mixed them together. Okay, so here's the question when searching for a therapist, what kind of therapists should I look for?Amy McDuffie 48:39Yeah, so Hannah, I'm happy to jump in on that. One. I would recommend looking for a therapist who is experienced working with individuals with ADHD. And you know, also if you you know, feel comfortable and know someone who has an ADHD diagnosis, you know, maybe getting a recommendation from them as well. Then what do you think?Hannah Choi 49:01Yeah, for sure, you can also ask your psychiatrist or your whatever the doctor is that you're working with, for medication, if you take medication. I do know on Psychology Today, the different therapists will have profiles. And then and then on their profile, it'll say whether they work with people with ADHD, although I did reach out to one and she she told me that she doesn't work with ADHD. People with ADHD but it says so on her profile. So you might, you might and then they went to check back again. I noticed it was gone. So you might you might that might happen to you, but I encourage you to persevere. Yeah, yes. But yeah, absolutely. Someone who has experience and then you meet you might also meet with the person for the first time if you've never met with a therapist before. You may not know this that it can take a couple tries to find a therapist that you really gel with. But it's worth pursuing. It is frustrating because you have to tell your story, again to a new A person. But um, hopefully, hopefully you find the right one on the first try. Yeah. All right. Next, how do you approach a college age student who has been diagnosed with ADHD but will not accept help and wants to fix himself? And how do you help with the shame that they feel I actually entire my own personal experience real quick, I ended up when I got diagnosed, I realized, oh, there's actually nothing wrong with me, this is just how my brain is wired. So I actually felt a lot of relief, getting a diagnosis, so that I can understand the opposite experience. And it does, it can really feel like there's like something wrong with you, and that needs to be fixed. But, you know, as we talked about last night, it is it is just, you know, it's a, it's the way that your brain is, you know, it's neurotransmitters, it's not character flaws. And so I don't know if you know, approaching it from a real matter of fact, sort of factual viewpoint, that this is what's going on in your brain. And it's not necessarily like you as, as your essence, your soul, your person. What do you think?Amy McDuffie 51:16Yeah, I think that, that the education piece is so crucial. Because just having that having the understanding, knowing why that's happening, I think can really help with that piece. And in terms of, you know, addressing the shame piece, and dealing with denial, I think it's really important, you know, as, as parents, as professionals to really normalize our own struggles, and normalize the fact that everyone has challenges and struggles and things that we that we fail at. And, you know, just really, you know, trying to approach it from that perspective that, you know, this is this is what I'm dealing with, and that, you know, we all have those things. And I feel like that's a really important part in conjunction with the education piece.Hannah Choi 52:11Yeah, yep. Showing that empathy. And, and, and acknowledging their, their feelings and not denying them those feelings. And, yeah, yeah, it is hard, though. Yeah. What's what what I feel like is that, that, eventually, people who are feeling that way will hopefully feel, see the superpowers see the benefits of it, and are and are able to shift their perspective from something like wrong with them something that needs to be fixed to something like, oh, how can I leverage the, you know, the, the actual, like, really great things about this? And, you know, it does take a lot of work? Not, you know, it's definitely not easy, but I think that a shift in mindset can can help as well. Absolutely. Just wanted that therapy piece and executive function coaching thing coming.Amy McDuffie 53:05Right. Right. And I think also, you know, if it's possible, you know, to connect them with someone who has ADHD and has, you know, worked on some strategies and, you know, is able to share their perspective, I think that can be really helpful as well, because so many people are diagnosed with it, and, you know, are very successful. So I think that's a helpful piece, too.Hannah Choi 53:31Yep. Absolutely. And that we are seeing much less of a stigma around it, and people are more open to talking about it. And so hopefully, they are, you know, your your kid kiddos are able to connect with other people, I think, yeah, that's a really good point that you brought up, Amy. Thank you. All right. So next one. All right. Let's switch to an adult perspective. If you work in an office job, where you stare at computers all day, how can one unplug and not lose motivation to do other stuff? I feel like I can't separate myself from my electronics and I procrastinate on other things I need to do. That's a really I think this challenge for anybody right, regardless of your diagnosis. Yes. Especially in this day and age, this is you are absolutely not the first person to ask this question. I think many of our adult clients are saying yes, yes. Amy McDuffie 54:33Yeah. I agree with you there. Yes, absolutely. Because we do spend so much time, you know, staring at our screens, whether it's work or anything else, I think it's really helpful to you know, to actually schedule time away from the computer away from the screen, and, you know, whatever that looks like, whether you're actually in an office or working from home, but you know, scheduling that time and committing to sticking to it. I also think it's really helpful to enlist support, you know, whether from a family member or a friend, you know, to help you commit to that, whether it's, you're able to go for a walk, or whatever the thing is, where you're breaking away from it, you know, having support can be really motivating.Hannah Choi 55:25I have an adult client that I work with currently, and he is dealing with this exact same challenge at work. And he is lucky that he has an office so he is able to shut his door. So what he does is he schedules work time on his calendar, so he looks busy, so that people, you know, interrupt him less, and then he also shuts his office door. If you don't have an office door to shut, you can have, you could even put up a sign like I'm busy working, putting on headphones is a nice visual cue to other people that you are busy. And then the phone, the phone is a big one, they've done studies and they have found that we are I think 30% less effective. Just having our phone on our desk, even if it's flipped over and silenced, we are less productive. So I really encourage you to put your phone, like you know, leave your phone in your I don't know, on your friend's desk or your co workers desk or in your work bag or something. So it's really, really out of the way out of you know, the temptation zone. That can you really help if you feel like you can't put it away or you can't for some reason, maybe you need to be on call for a sick child or you have some other commitment where you really need to be connected to your phone. They do have apps that can help you with focus. So there's don't My favorite one is Focus Dog, which there's like a dog that makes doughnuts while you're focusing. We talked about that one before. There's also there's also Forest and you know, all those other focusing apps - the Flora flora. Yeah, those are both really like pre pretty ones. Right? So, if you want the tasty donuts get Focus Dog, Pretty one get Flora Forest or, or Flora. Those are some tools that you can use if you if you can't physically move your phone away from your Yeah, your workspace.Amy McDuffie 57:31Yeah, that's, that's great to know, to Hannah about the productivity. I need to I need to work on that.Hannah Choi 57:39Yeah, it's and I've actually asked my, a lot of my college clients, I challenged them to not have their phone with them when they're working. And they all begrudgingly admit that yes, they were more productive when their phone wasn't. So yes. But yeah, it is it is a powerful distractor having that there. SoAmy McDuffie 58:01yeah, definitely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 58:03All right. So let's see. Here's some more though is two more that will combine any tips for college freshmen with ADHD? What may be some good routines to practice over the summer? Great question. And then how do I help my teen who was diagnosed last month with ADHD? Learn some strategies to make things easier on them during the summer? While the pressure of school is off? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. Amy McDuffie 58:32Yes, are so great. And I, I love the thoughtfulness behind that. And, you know, taking advantage of summer time being, you know, a low stakes situation without the pressure school. And I really think it's a great time to work on things like organizational skills, whether it's your physical space to get that set up, you know, before school starts, or, you know, working on, you know, learning to use a planner or a Calendar, Google Calendar. This is something that I actually work on with my kids during the summer. You know, in terms of, you know, Google Calendar, and you know, helping them manage whether my daughter is dog sitting or babysitting, she uses like a physical wall calendar as well. So you know, whatever the organizational system is, that's going to be helpful just to get in the habit of using that. I feel like it's really important over the summer. What about you?Hannah Choi 59:29Yeah, yes, I'm working on that right now with a client where I'm encouraging them to. I joke and say, you have to change your relationship with your planner, you have to move beyond just holding hands. And so yeah, so I'm really encouraging them to write everything down in their calendar. And it's like you said, it's such a low stakes time. So even when they're going to hang out with friends, I encourage them to put it in their calendar. So they can just get in the habit of making the calendar event, you know, and then maybe even sharing it with their friends with their friends can also have it on their calendar, just to be a little bit of a role model and also have some built in some accountability. So, that's is such a great time to practice it.Amy McDuffie 1:00:20One of my clients, we actually started this summer, working on a schedule for laundry.Hannah Choi 1:00:27Because there's so many executive function skills. Yes, yes. And cooking, too.Amy McDuffie 1:00:33It's a good one, too. But yeah, so you know, even things like, you know, working on, you know, managing your chores, or, you know, setting up a plan to manage your laundry can be really hard to work on in the summertime. Yeah, so with one of my clients was laundry, like, we literally, you know, worked on making a schedule and a plan for the week of, you know, when to tackle laundry, and, you know, even down to, you know, pulling in some habit stacking that in the morning, right after the shower, we're going to start laundry and, and go from there. And it was really effective. And I think that's such a helpful thing to focus on in the summertime,Hannah Choi 1:01:16Especially for kids who are heading off to college. And we've, you know, we've talked about that, before, it's come up on a couple conversations on the podcast anyway, it's such a huge, huge thing. And there's so many executive function skills out there. Yeah. And also cooking to cooking is a really great way to practice executive function skills of planning and prioritizing and organization, and time management. And it, there's so many involved in there. And then also, they're learning the valuable skill of how to cook right is so important as you prepare to leave to leave the nest. Yeah, though. Yeah, absolutely. You're right. It is, it's such like a great low stakes environment to practice those things. And they, and they really, and you don't need to practice them in an academic way. You know, like the examples that we just gave have nothing to do with academics. But, and that's what's so cool about executive function coaching is how transferable all of the skills that our clients learn, like, like our student clients, learn, you know, strategies to support their academics, but all of those strategies are transferable to, you know, their daily life activities. It's pretty cool.Amy McDuffie 1:02:36Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's so valuable, too, because, you know, just thinking about things like laundry and cooking, I mean, those are skills, you you have to have your entire life unless, you know, you're in a situation where someone does that for you have to learn to manage those things. And I think back and I wish that someone had like, either really kind of worked on those things with me in a more direct way. I mean, I figured them out, as we do. Yeah, right. Right. You know, it really does just make me aware of the value of, you know, really directly teaching the skills and the systems that you can apply across the board.Hannah Choi 1:03:19And what is so great about that is that you can directly teach your kids those, those executive function skills without them even realizing that they're learning. So, you know, if you sat down and very, very formally said, now, we should work on time management, and, you know, like prioritizing, they're gonna roll their eyes and say, No, thank you. But, you know, just don't mention them and they're gonna learn them just accidentally.Amy McDuffie 1:03:48Exactly, exactly. There's so many ways to naturally weave that in. Yes, yeah. If we, if we formally approach it with our own kids, I feel like at that point, like, they're, they're no longer listening. Yeah.Hannah Choi 1:04:01That's right. It's like when they're little and you would like, I don't know, you'd like hide the spinach and something tasty. Like, if you tell them there's spinach in here, they're gonna like, I'm not gonna eat that. decided in there. They don't know. Exactly, exactly. Sorry, kids. Parenting is all about tricking you.Amy McDuffie 1:04:23It's actually it's not manipulation. It's education. Hannah Choi 1:04:28That's right, disguised as a brownie or laundry. Amy McDuffie 1:04:32You'll think this later.Hannah Choi 1:04:34And you'll do the same to yours if you have them. Thanks again for joining me, Amy, such a pleasure.Amy McDuffie 1:04:41Absolutely. Hannah. This was great. Thank you so much.Hannah Choi 1:04:45And that is our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you learned something new about ADHD or maybe you just found a new view of it. It truly can be a superpower with the right interventions. tools and strategies. As I mentioned before, if you want to watch the entire webinar, you can find the link to it in the show notes. I also included some links to the slides that we shared during the webinar. I hope you join me at our next webinar. You can find more about our upcoming events by signing up for beyond book smarts monthly newsletter, the monthly think, or by checking the Events page in the resources section of our website. If you know anyone who might want to learn more about ADHD, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and also you can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. And as always, if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. We would love it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast will let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Resilience is a topic I've wanted to explore for a long time on the podcast. After all, how can we continue to work on ourselves if our progress is always getting cut short? So in this week's episode, we're going to explore 6 tips for becoming more resilient in your life. When I started doing the research for today's episode on how to handle sliding back when you've made some progress, something about my search terms brought up a bunch of articles on how to handle sliding while driving on icy roads. I was going to pass these over but then I got a little distracted and a little curious about what the pros have to say about this. Living in New England, knowing how to handle driving on icy roads is a requirement so I thought I should brush up on my knowledge. And, as I read through the article, I realized that all of the tips they suggested applied quite well to sliding back when making progress! So, today's episode is a two-fer! It will teach you about managing both sliding while driving on icy roads and sliding back after making good progress. Once again, Focus Forward to the rescue! Here are some resources related to the episode.How to handle backslides: https://www.scottsfortcollinsauto.com/what-do-you-do-if-your-car-is-sliding-on-ice/Resilience Resources:https://www.apa.org/topics/resiliencehttps://www.child-encyclopedia.com/resilience/according-experts/protective-role-executive-function-skills-high-risk-environmentshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6403185/https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_to_hardwire_resilience_into_your_brainJames Clear: https://jamesclear.com/get-back-on-trackEmotional regulation: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/science/key-concepts/executive-function/Consistency: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9iZTI4OGFjL3BvZGNhc3QvcnNz/episode/NDBjMDBiMTUtMzMwMy00OGVjLWI2OWMtMGE3ZjNmNDlmZGI3?ep=14Breaking streaks:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ulterior-motives/202306/how-broken-streaks-sap-motivationContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscript:Before I get started today, I wanted to ask for a favor! If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, could you scroll down to the bottom of the Focus Forward section of the app and give us a rating? Hopefully 5 stars?? Also, if you have any episode topic ideas, please email me at podcast at beyond bookmart.com! I'd love to hear from you. Okay, let's get going.When I started doing the research for today's episode on how to handle sliding back when you've made some progress, something about my search terms brought up a bunch of articles on how to handle sliding while driving on icy roads. I was going to pass these over but then I got a little distracted and a little curious about what the pros have to say about this. Living in the NE, knowing how to handle driving on icy roads is a requirement so I thought I should brush up on my knowledge. And, as I read through the article, I realized that all of the tips they suggested applied quite well to sliding back when making progress! So, today's episode is a two-fer! It will teach you about managing both sliding while driving on icy roads and sliding back after making good progress. Once again, Focus Forward to the rescue! The article I'll refer to throughout the episode is aptly called “What Do You Do If Your Car is Sliding on Ice?” and it was written by someone at Scott's Automotive and Service Centers, Inc with locations throughout Colorado and Arizona. You can find a link to it in the show notes if you want more information or want to read their other well-written and informative articles. Before I dive into the article, I wanted to share some science-y stuff about executive function and resilience, because resilience is basically what I'm exploring today - managing the challenge of sliding back after having made some progress. We need to be resilient to get back on the horse, if you will. Research has shown that there is a direct connection between resilience and executive function skills. It appears that when your executive functioning is strong, your sense of self-efficacy is strengthened, as well. Self-efficacy, as we have talked about before in a couple of other episodes, is the belief that you have the ability to motivate yourself, accomplish tasks, and make decisions.Studies have also shown that adolescents have a better time adjusting to school when they have stronger executive functioning and are more resilient. As a coach, I see this all the time in my college clients. After I've worked with them for a while and they've created some systems that work really well to support their EF skills, I see them being more resilient. They head into difficult times during the school year with more confidence and they come through it having had a better experience. If you'd like to do some reading on resilience and executive function, check out the show notes because I stuck some articles in there that you might find interesting. So, here's another reason to work on building your executive function skills, especially as teenagers and young adults. Okay, so back to icy driving conditions. Scott's Automotive shared six tips for icy driving success in the article. I'll review them all and tie them to some executive functioning strategies that can help us when we feel like we're taking two steps forward and one step back, which by the way, is very normal, just like ice.Tip #1No Brakes!The article reads, “Your first impulse when you feel yourself slipping out of control–literally–is to apply your brakes and stop the vehicle.” You're not supposed to do that, even though you really want to, as it will make your slide worse. This can apply when we feel like we're sliding back or not making progress on our goals. It can be tempting to give up, to put on the brakes and say, “well, apparently I'm just bad at doing this new habit” and decide that we're not qualified to even try to make this positive change. To me, this black and white kind of thinking is a great way to interrupt any progress you were making and make your slide even worse. Practicing dialectical thinking in this situation is a good thing to try. Dialectical thinking allows us to hold two opposing thoughts in our heads at one time and recognize and accept that both can be true. “I overslept again! I should just give up on being a morning person” becomes, “It feels like I'm not making any progress on getting up earlier because I overslept again and I'm willing to keep trying”. This can help us be less rigid in our thinking and allow us to continue to look for alternative tools and strategies to help us reach our goals. Remember that cognitive flexibility from episode 21? Dialectical thinking is a great way to use those cognitive flexibility skills you have been working on developing.Okay, on to Tip #2Turn into the slideThis part of managing icy driving has always boggled my mind, but they're right! The article agrees and says, “This goes against your instincts, but to help when you are sliding, you actually want to turn in the direction of the slide.” When I saw this, it really resonated with me and it kind of goes along with the previous tip. When we're sliding back, changing our viewpoint from seeing it as a failure to seeing it as an opportunity to learn, can make a huge difference. Really lean into it, turn into that perceived “failure”. Embrace it as an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to find something that works better than what we've already been trying. Or, maybe it will just help us find the patience to accept ourselves, even when we're not making the progress we wish we were, with grace and love and compassion. The last lines of this section of the article are just so perfect for this: “Gently maneuver the wheel. Correcting your slide in one direction, will result in the car returning back in the opposite direction before it, ultimately, stabilizes. Expect this rocking back and forth motion and respond with care.” Let's do the same with ourselves and respond with care.Okay, next up, Tip #3Avoid oversteeringAgain, the article comes through with a tip that so perfectly applies to learning how to manage it when we slide back when making progress. It reads, “If you oversteer, you can put the car in a full spin.” I see oversteering as completely overhauling our systems when we feel like we're failing, sliding back, or not making the progress we want to see. There's actually no need to oversteer. Take some time to reflect on the progress you HAVE made and see what tools or strategies DO work for you. See how you can modify those, if needed. Make small, incremental changes instead of major ones. Work at slowly changing your thinking about your progress. I bet you there are wins in there that you're just not seeing. There's no need to throw away that planner if you miss a meeting or give up running just because you missed a couple runs in your 5k training plan. Look at your planner - what did work? How many meetings did you not miss? What strategies can you use to make your planner work better for you? Look at your 5k training plan - what days and times seem to be the easiest for you to go running? What can you do to prevent injury? Are you drinking enough water? When we feel like we're sliding, pausing and taking some time to think, reflect, troubleshoot, and find small wins you might be overlooking is much more effective than overhauling your whole system or oversteering your car.Okay, now for Tip #4Stay calmOh, Scott's Automotive and Service Centers, you know the key to my heart and to our thinking brains. Emotional regulation! The article states, “Staying calm is key. Panic will cause you to oversteer and can result in a more serious slide, spin or accident.” If you have listened to this podcast for a while, you'll have heard me say a million times that we can only fully access our executive function skills when we are calm. When we allow our emotions to take over, it's really, really difficult to think about what to do when we are challenged by something, when we find ourselves sliding back. Staying calm is the key to the resiliency we need to recover from these perceived setbacks. If you haven't yet discovered what strategies help regulate yourself when you're feeling overwhelmed, discouraged, frustrated, scared, or anxious, listen up! Sometimes it's as simple as taking some calming breaths. At BBS we coaches really love 5-finger breathing, where you trace your fingers up and down while breathing in and out. Another breathing strategy that lots of people find helpful is square breathing - you breathe in for four counts, hold for four counts, breathe out for four and then hold again for four and then repeat this cycle as long as you can. But you don't even have to get fancy like this - just taking some slow, controlled breaths can really make a difference. I've heard lots of people say that breathing is just not for them. I'd like to push back a little on that and say that breathing is actually for everyone - it's literally keeping you alive right now! Just give one of these breathing exercises a shot! You might be surprised at how helpful it can be.Practicing healthy, supportive self-talk is another tip for staying calm. When I'm out running and I'm struggling, I always tell myself “Hannah, you can do this”. If you listened to episode 1 about managing failure, you may remember me talking about this strategy. Speaking kindly to ourselves with supportive words during times of stress can really help regulate our emotions. So, whether you're sliding on ice or just sliding back from making progress, try motivating yourself with a little supportive self-talk.Mindfulness is another great strategy for managing our emotions. Learning how to pay attention to our bodies and how they're feeling, bringing our focus back to what we're doing, and noticing small things around us can all help with emotional regulation - and tricky winter driving! There are a ton of different approaches to mindfulness, including stopping to pay attention to something we normally just do without thinking or sitting for a 10-minute meditation session. However you approach mindfulness is up to you - research shows that it really and truly does positively impact our emotional regulation.In order for these strategies to be really effective when we need them, we have to practice them. If you listened to episode 26 with Dr. Alison Roy, you might remember me saying that I started practicing square breathing while I'm driving. Hopefully it'll come in handy this winter when I'm navigating some icy roads.Next up, Tip #5Prevent sliding by reducing your speedIf road conditions are poor, we should all be driving more slowly to begin with. The article explains ”If the roads are icy, or covered in snow, it is important to slow your vehicle. The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration advises that you reduce your speed by 1/3 on wet roads and by 1/2 (or more) on snow-packed roads.” This is such great advice for changing habits, too. The process of building or breaking habits is not easy or fast. There are no quick fixes. There's no magic wand. Barreling into trying to make change with the expectation that you'll somehow, miraculously become perfect instantly is unreasonable and is sure to set you up for disappointment. We are human, We are not perfect. Slow down, take small steps, give yourself some grace and some time. Look in the rearview mirror and see what's worked for you and what hasn't. Strive for excellence, not perfection. And last, and certainly not least, Tip #6Call for an Auto Check-upScott's Automotive says “Another way to stay safe during inclement weather conditions is to ensure that your car is prepared for the weather.” This is true for our minds and bodies, as well. When we are healthy and taken care of, it is easier to manage sliding back. Prioritizing self-care is critical. Just as you make sure your cars' tires have enough tread and your brakes are not worn out, we need to make sure that we are eating well, sleeping well, and moving our bodies. Going to the doctor regularly and making sure you're doing what you can to stay healthy is critical for success, especially when you're challenged by tricky stuff. It is much easier to access the executive function skills we need to be resilient when our bodies are happy. Part of this last tip involves asking for help. I don't know about you, but there's not much I understand about fixing cars, so I need to ask the mechanic for help. In fact, as I write this, our car is in the shop for new brakes. If you need help with your executive function skills, ask for it! It can be scary to say I need help, but giving ourselves permission to do that can lead to growth far beyond anything we ever thought possible. Asking for help does not mean you are weak, or ignorant, or anything like that. It actually means you are smart and confident. I have had so many clients say to me, “I was so afraid to admit I needed help” or “I was afraid to share my struggles” but as soon as they did, they felt a great weight off their shoulders and were able to start moving towards finding solutions to their challenges. And, let me tell you, as much as I'm preaching this right now, I, too, find it very difficult to ask for help. But, I take a deep breath and do it, because I'm worth it. Well, there you go! If you live in the north, you've had a refresh on how to handle sliding on ice and if you live in the south, you've had a chance to be glad you don't live where it snows. And hopefully you've all learned some tips for handling sliding back while working towards your goals. Before I go, I wanted to share some advice that some of my fellow coaches shared on this topic. Denise McMahon shared that she uses backslides as an opportunity to have her clients consider questions like:Am I facing any new or unforeseen barriers?Have I really slid backward or am I expecting myself to be perfect?Do I need to tweak my tools and strategies to gain some momentum again?Am I shaming myself or creating negative stories that are preventing me from taking the next step?What's one small thing I can say yes to?Can I introduce novelty to respark my interest?And, Tina Conte shared a great quote from author, Robert Brault:...taking a step backwardafter taking a step forward is not a disaster, it's a cha-cha.”And that's our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Be sure to check out the show notes for further reading. Please share our podcast with your friends, family, and colleagues. We appreciate it so much! You can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. I would love to hear from you. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or spotify, give us a boost by giving us 5-star rating! Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com slash podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

In this week's episode, we explore the fascinating world of the human brain and its impact on stress management, parenting, and relationships. We had the privilege of inviting Dr. Alison Roy, a licensed clinical psychologist, and a bona fide brain enthusiast. I first heard Dr. Roy speak during the pandemic, and her insights on the brain, trauma, stress, and parenting were truly impactful.In our conversation, Dr. Roy sheds light on the science behind our reactions to stress and provides practical advice on how to maintain control and leverage our executive function skills—the skills governed by the pre-frontal cortex, a term you've probably heard me mention quite often. The aim? To improve and maintain our relationships, make parenting a bit easier, and in general, navigate life with a better understanding of our own minds.I urge you to listen to this episode, even if you're not a parent or caregiver. Much of the advice that Dr. Roy shares is universally applicable, and her passion for educating others about the brain is truly infectious. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I relished being a part of it.Here are some relevant resources related to the conversation:Dan Siegel's Bookshttps://drdansiegel.com/books/Hand Model of the Brain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m2YcdMdFwPolyvagal theory in practicehttps://ct.counseling.org/2016/06/polyvagal-theory-practice/YouTube Video of Dr. Stephen Porges explaining the polyvagal theoryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec3AUMDjtKQMaslow's hierarchy of needshttps://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571Dr. Alison Roy's websitewww.dralisonroy.comSlides from Dr. Roy's Presentationhttps://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pk9stUBGV0L0X4ES6Csb5_BXTjbGndfZBeyond BookSmarthttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Yay, I am so excited to bring you today's show. As a parent and an official member of the brain nerd club, I am totally geeking out about my guest, Dr. Allison Roy. Allison is a licensed clinical psychologist, and she loves the brain and teaching people about it even more than I do. I first heard her speak during the pandemic, and her presentations on the brain and trauma and stress and parenting were just exactly what I needed at that time. And I still use what I learned from her even today, when I had the opportunity to see her speak again recently, I knew I had to get her on Focus Forward so you all could listen and learn from her, too. In our conversation about stress and how our brains are impacted by it, Allison shared some really practical things that we can do to manage that stress and stay in our thinking brains, you know that prefrontal cortex, you've heard me mention, oh, a billion times. This way, we can use our executive function skills to improve and maintain our relationships with the people in our families, and make parenting a little easier. If you're not a parent, or a caregiver of kiddos, I encourage you to listen anyway, especially to the first part, most of the advice that Allison shares really does apply to all of us. I truly hope you enjoy this conversation, as much as I enjoyed being a part of it. Now on to the show. Hannah Choi 01:55Hi, Alison, thank you so much for coming today, to talk with me about the brain, and parenting and executive function skills. I am just going to share with the listeners a little bit about how I met you. I during the pandemic you gave some presentations, virtual presentations through our public school system. And I'm not kidding when I say that those presentations and the way that you presented it made just like a massive difference for me and my family during the pandemic and actually get emotional when I think about it. Because like that was such a difficult time. But learning, learning about the brain and learning about what some actual, like real things that I could do that would make a difference made such a difference. And it also really informed my coaching. And it just informed my, my I already really loved the brain. So it just like reinforced that. So thank you so much for that. Yeah. And then we were reconnected recently when you spoke again, at our for our parent presentation. And again in our school systems, which was excellent. And so thank you so much for coming on the podcast,Dr. Alison Roy 03:09Of course, I'm really excited to be here. And it's so fun to be able to do stuff virtually. When you're not, you know, I'm in New Hampshire. And it's not always, you know, right down the road. So it's nice to be able to connect to different places and areas of the world. It's one thing that pandemic gave us.Hannah Choi 03:26Yes, yes. Yep. And it's amazing. You can still have such an impact on someone's life even virtually so. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so would you introduce yourselves to listeners and explain a little bit about your background?Dr. Alison Roy 03:43Yeah, so my name is Dr. Alison Roy. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of New Hampshire. I'm located in Exeter, New Hampshire, which is right on the seacoast area of New Hampshire. And I've been a psychologist for about two decades now. And I've practiced all over the world, I've had really cool opportunity to live in Europe and live in Asia and learn a lot and see a lot and experience a lot as a psychologist but also as a mom and as a family. So to my kids were born overseas. And so it's been a really fun adventure to kind of just see the world and learn a lot about human brains everywhere. As Hannah said, I'm a total brain nerd. I love understanding the neuro psychology or neurobiology of what's going on. When we're having real life experiences. It's validating to know that there's really things happening in our brain as to why we're feeling or thinking or doing in that moment. I specialize actually in post traumatic stress disorder and trauma. And that's how I got called upon quite a bit during the pandemic because we were all kind of going through something it was the first time we could really say that we were had a global trauma or stressful event and so a lot of districts, school districts did right by the parents. In our district and invited experts in to talk about why this was really hard. And it continues to be hard. We're all still healing from those couple of years. So I'm excited to come on today and talk about what that might look like in your own home. And hopefully it's validating and acknowledges, you know, some of what you experience every day. And and yeah, we'll do a little little brain learning together, too. Hannah Choi 05:22Cool. Thank you. Yeah, that validation piece was really important. For me when you gave that presentation, it made me feel better about like, why am I feeling this way? Oh, okay. It made a lot more sense. And I felt like, yeah, and then I felt like I could forgive myself a little bit, which, which felt really good. Dr. Alison Roy 05:40So good. Good. Like I said, so I'm a parent, too so I get it. I get it. I have three little guys. So yeah,Hannah Choi 05:46Yes, yes, you do get it. Yeah. So I would love for you to kind of just maybe even just do the same presentation that you did before. Because even though I knew a lot of what you shared, just hearing it, there's something about the way that you present all the information that just makes it really accessible and understandable. So would you share with our listeners, what you've taught, so many people about the brain and stress and how to manage it all. Dr. Alison Roy 06:18iI would love to. It's my favorite thing, to talk about the brain, I'm gonna pull up some slides, just mostly, as I was, you know, we were chatting before we got on today and started recording, I really just need help staying on track, actually, so. So it's helpful for me to have some slides to look at, so that I stay focused.Hannah Choi 06:39So I will, before you start, I just want to say that I will share these graphics in the show notes for anyone who's listening. So you can look along if you'd like.Dr. Alison Roy 06:49Absolutely, yeah, there's not gonna be there's gonna be three slides, I think three or four, maybe that will be good to kind of check out so. But I'll do my best to make it feel like you're looking at something even if you're just listening to us today. So so let's talk about this human brain of ours, and what happens when we experience stressful events. And these stressful events can come in a variety of ways. So certainly, you'll hear me talk about, alright, this is really what we're going to talk about today is that fight, flight, or freeze reaction that we have. And so we think about this a lot when we think about life threatening situations. So I always use the universally scary situation for all of us of being chased by a bear because I feel like I don't know if there's a human on this planet that would find that to be intimidating. So if you're being chased by a bear, you want this system to kick in and save your life. However, which is great, right, we have this great human system to do that, for us to to save our lives. However, your human brain does that reaction that fight flight or freeze reaction for many different reasons. And it could be that in a singular moment, you've something alerts your brain, and we're going to talk about how that would all the things that happen in that millisecond in your brain allows your brain to think, Oh, this is a life or death situation, when it's not actually and you have that reaction, your brain can also be pushed into that fight flight or freeze mode very gradually. So I call it the slow build or the fast punch. So it can happen in a fast punch type of way, like being chased by a bear or having a in the moment reaction. Or it could be that slow build, where you're you've had a stressful week. And just one more thing happens and you feel like you kind of fly off the handle or go into that fight flight or freeze mode. So again, this this part of our brain is is really amazing. And we want it to work because it saves our lives, it just can be a little frustrating when it's a really active system that fight flight or freeze systems activating a lot or too much. And we're being pushed into this red brain zone that we're going to talk about in a minute. So let's talk about these three zones. If you're a listen to this podcast regularly, you know a lot about that green zone up there, that executive functioning zone, that frontal lobe, that's where all of our beautiful executive functions are housed. And we only have access to our whole, all the colors of the brain, when we're at rest and digest. We call it rest and digest when we're at rest, when we're not stressed or not thinking of a million things or running around or doing a bunch of errands or you know have a project do at work and all the all the things are happening. So when we're when we're at rest, we have access to our full brain. So in other words, you don't need to have a diagnosis of ADHD in order to have the frontal lobe part of your brain be impacted and have a difficult time with some error executive functions. Because stress stress interferes with your ability to really access those at their full potential. So that's the green part of the brain as the first part of the brain that comes offline when we start to become stressed unfortunately. So the next part of the brain next part down is called the kind of the blue brain or the emotional brain. This part of the brain is all All about feeling, not about rational thoughts. So I like to call this part of the brain, the toddler section of the brain, about a toddler, right? They're all about big, big emotions, zero rational or logical thoughts. So that's really what the Blue Brain is all about, and needs the green brain in order to have that more rational or logical thought process. So when that green brain comes off line, you're left with a lot of emotions. And those emotions dictate your fight flight or freeze mode. And as you can probably imagine, if you're not connected to ration or logic, and you start to have an experience that might be overwhelming that emotion can overwhelm you and send you into that fight flight or freeze mode pretty easily. And then there's the red brain, the red brain is our survival brain, our reptilian brain, you've probably heard it called these things. Its sole job and purpose is to keep us alive. And so again, really cool part of the brain, really frustrating when it's in the driver's seat too much. And so what that part of the brain is engineered to do is be in control of our heart rate, our respiration, our blood pressure, our sleep wake cycles in our satiation queues, whether we're hungry or thirsty. And that's it. So as you can probably imagine, you've heard this used before, right? Like I can't even think about tomorrow, I just have to get through today. This is the kind of language we use when we're in that red brain, or we're just not hungry. Because we're just so focused or so stressed on getting through that part of the day. Dr. Alison Roy 11:33And so the red brain, when it takes over really only wants you to focus on those kind of survival functions, it doesn't want you to focus on doing math or being organized, or quite frankly, having empathy or compassion for others. So you can see how when you think about how you are as a human, when you're really stressed, we're not our best selves. And so we when we get pushed down into that red brain, that's the reason why that happens. So let's take a deeper look at how that happens. It's not something that we have control over, and nor do we want to have control over it. Because again, we want this to be the most instant automatic function that we have, because it's survival based. And so again, if a bear pops out of the woods, when you're hiking, you want to not think at all about your pot, you know, what you could do to get away you want your body to kind of react naturally. And hopefully, you freeze, right running away, or fighting a bear is not the option that your body wants you. And we're going to learn that we can go either way fight or flight or freeze, and that we all have the ability to go either way it as I'm talking a minute, I'm going to talk about those two kind of options, and what they look like in real life. And you can think about yourself or your spouse or partner your own children and kind of think about where they might fall, because some of us tend to have an automatic stress response of either fight or flight or freeze. But we have the ability to go either way. And sometimes it's dependent on the stimulus or what's happening in our environment that pushes us into that red brain. Okay, so when our amygdala, which is a very tiny structure is a tiny but mighty, very tiny structure in our brain that is working constantly. It works about three to 10 times a second, if you've never experienced any traumatic event, if you have any sort of traumatic event in your history, or you're just having a really stressful week, your amygdala is hyperactive hypersensitive, so it can be up to a scanning the room that you're in up to 100 times a second, so very, very active. So it's, it's like a smoke alarm or smoke detector. So its job is to scan your environment and decide if anything in that environment is scary, upsetting, worrisome, overwhelming, uncertain, even, like exciting. So even really positive over like big emotions can cause this amygdala to react. And the amygdala gets all its information to make this decision from your five senses. So it's use very, very connected to your five senses, meaning it uses smell, it uses temperature, sense of touch, temperature, sensing, Sight, Sound, so I like to give the example of one time I was I was talking about this with I work a lot with educators. I was sitting in a room with educated with a group of educators. And we all I'm, I'm quite literally talking about this slide and the smell of gas started coming into the room. And so you can see all the rooms kind of gets a little wide eyed and let's start looking around. That's your amygdala kind of going, um, something's going on here and like smell the gas and I know that means that this could potentially be a bad situation. So again, it's are five senses that tip off the amygdala. And have it kind of sound the alarm for lack of better words in our brain. And a cascade of actions and reactions happen very quickly. So again, this activates very quickly, you can think about when you get really upset, I was talking the other day about, when I get really upset, or my kids get really upset, we're a family of Door-slammers. So we'll kind of stomp off and slam the door. And of course, if you had rational, logical thought happening, you would know not to slam the door. But in that moment, that's the way your body's releasing that reaction. So that this cascade of actions and reactions start happening. So the amygdala says, "Oops, something's going on". It shuts down the green brain, and most of the Blue Brain, it kind of stops, I've seen the brain scans is stopped sending neuronal activity there. So those areas of the brain, when you look at like an fMRI or an MRI, you can see that the areas of the brain where there's neuronal activity happening, it's all colored, it's all lit up. And when this happens, it goes completely dark. So we kind of shoot go right down into this red brain. Because our brain is saying, I need to survive, right now I need to spend all my energy, all my neuronal activity, just within this red brain of focus in this very moment on survival. So green brain and Blue Brain mostly kind of shut down activity. Also, our left side of our brain goes completely offline as well. And the left side of the brain is where all the else so if you've ever read anything I learned with Dan Siegel at all, he's a great, he's a great person to look up and kind of explore a little bit, the whole brain child is his book. It's one of his books, he has many by great parenting books. But he talks about all the ELLs are all housed on the left side of the brain language, linear logic, all these beautiful ELLs while you lose them all when you go into the stress mode. And so you lose your words, you can't put good sentences together, you can't have a good linear sense of time. So you're kind of mental timeline gets all messed up. And so, so all of this is, believe it or not, all of this has happening in that moment, when you start to become stressed. Your memory processes also shifts. So the way we remember things shifts very much to our five senses. And that's where we get kind of trauma triggers from as our brain latches on to those five senses. In that moment, it doesn't remember things with language, because the language centers aren't accessible. And we lose our words, like I said, we lose our ability to have language in that moment, and certainly, this is one of my favorites, ways of looking at all this beautiful executive functions. So all of what you're seeing on this screen is all of the executive functions list. So impulse control, be able to take turns focus, concentrate, attend, have perspective, taking have empathy, all of that is, is beautiful, and a beautiful part of our human brain will all of it goes out the window when we start to go down into this read brain. And so as you can probably imagine, as an adult, you know, you know this, we have a fully developed frontal lobe by about 25 ish. And so we have the best frontal lobe we could possibly have. So when we lose a lot of this in a stressful moment, we still have more capacity than a child does. Because a kiddo doesn't have that fully developed frontal lobe yet. And so when they go into stress brain, we really see some big reactions with very little logic or rational thinking. And they tend to go on much longer, think epic temper tantrums, because they don't have this ability to access any sort of frontal lobe functions. Okay, so last little part I'll talk about today. And maybe one more slide. But this this is, so this is not my image. But you can see that the website that's on there, they have some great information as well around mental health and just they have these graphics that they produce, to be able to help people be able to talk about this stuff more, they just want to promote people talking about it, which is great. And so what I like about this is it shows in real life, and I'm going to talk about this what it looks like when we're having that red brain reaction that fight flight or freeze reaction. And this is based on the polyvagal theory of the stress response system. And that's Porges' theory. And again, if you Google polyvagal theory, you'll come up with lots of really fascinating information. There's volumes and volumes written about it. And it's my favorite way of kind of thinking about or talking about the stress response because I feel like to me when the first time I learned this, it was so incredibly validating because it just made the neuroscience make sense for real light. Yeah. So let's look at this for a second. So In the middle, this, the person you see in the middle is at rest and digest, meaning there is no alarm bells going off with the amygdala, all parts of the brain are online. And she's quite literally at rest and digest, which means she looks happy or relaxed. She looks happy. Yeah, this is what we want to be at, right? This is where I would hope we would spend most of our time. So you know, she's able to have a heart rate, that's nice and even blood pressure's in good shape, respiratory systems in good shape. And she's quite literally able to digest her food, actually heard a really interesting NPR story, just coming out of the pandemic. So probably late last year, when they were talking, they're interviewing primary care doctors who said they were prescribing and acids or digestive aids at like a very high rate. And it's makes sense because we spent so much time being stressed our digestive systems, one of the first systems that will be implicated in that. So we can't digest our food if we're not if everything else isn't at rest. And so it is going to see if you have heartburn, indigestion, belly aches, tummy aches, and we hear this a lot from our kids when they're stressed. It makes perfect sense because the digestive system gets very complicated.Hannah Choi 21:17I remember when I was in graduate school, I had really bad acid reflux. And now I know.Dr. Alison Roy 21:23Yes. Oh, absolutely. And terrible sleep patterns. Probably. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The two biggest disrupted system. So yeah, yep. And they're always my biggest red flag. So I always when a family comes to me, I do a lot of work. So I have a private practice as well. I do a lot of work with adolescents and young people and their families, I do a lot of family work. And that's one of the things I asked first about what are your sleep patterns, like what are eating patterns like, because often I can find a lot of clues within there, that the family system might be stressed. So if we're not at rest and digest, and we've seen over the past several years with what we've all been through, with a pandemic, and everything that has brought with it, that this window of rest and digest should be about here, and it's been it's shrunk, it's a little bit smaller for all of us, because we've just spent so much time being stressed. The beautiful part about the human brain, which you probably also know if you're a brain geek, like me is the human brain has neuroplasticity. So just because it's shrunk over the past couple of years doesn't mean we can't expand it as well. So that's good. That's a really great part. Yeah, it's a really beautiful part, you just have to work on it. And we're going to talk about so I'm on the left hand side, you see what looks like this same character in the middle who's at rest and digest has now been pushed into what we call hyper arousal, which is fight or flight. So you can see her kind of running away from the situation, which is a lot of our reactions. When we get really stressed either we physically run away, or we feel like I don't know if you've ever had that feeling where your body feels so agitated, like you just want to get out of the situation. Or yeah, yes. Or it comes out in aggression of some kind. Not all of us don't slam doors, like maybe my family does, but you feel like your fists might be clenching up, you feel your body tense up. So that is because in that hyper arousal fight or flight mode, we're producing so much adrenaline and cortisol, that our body to quite literally get ready to run away or fight something off. Our body doesn't really know what to do with that. And that produces certain symptoms, like irritability, anger, frustration, crying, again, stopping slamming doors, yelling, screaming, crying tantruming. So any of those over the top kind of emotional reactions, that's hyper arousal. Now I'm sure there's some of you out there going right now. Oh, yeah, no, that's me. I definitely do that. Just hyper aroused, stressed person. So if that resonates with you, that is real, and there's a reason why that's happening. So, or if that resonates for your kiddos, if you have a kiddo that becomes very overly emotional when they're upset as well, that that hyper arousal reaction. Now on the other side of the screen is our character kind of curled in a ball, head down, looking pretty sad or withdrawn. This is hypo arousal or freeze mode. So freeze doesn't always mean quite literally freeze, it means your body is shutting down in order to survive by reserving all of its resources. So your blood pressure is going to drop very, very low, your heart rates going to actually slow down, your breathing is going to slow down because your body's preparing to survive in a very different way. And so that's what we're seeing here and this looks very similar to depression. It looks like we don't want to engage with others, we want to kind of shut the world out, we want to just kind of go to sleep or sleeping in too much sleeping is often a sign of a stress response. So shutting down in that way, or I do see, especially some of my high achieving adolescents that I work with. And also we do this as adults a lot is what we call fawning or robotic compliance, where we're just like, everything's fine. I'm totally fine, everything's fine as one of our legs is quite literally on fire. So. So we do that, too. We try to avoid the stress and pretend like it's not happening, but then it almost always bubbles over in some way. So this is a polyvagal theory. So check it out, get some more information about it. I do really like it. And it makes sense to me. Okay, last slide. Like I promised, I just wanted to highlight. Again, if you're having some sort of stress in your life, some overwhelming stress in your life, there's systems that are most impacted by stress, our sleep, eating and digestion. So if you start to see disruptions in any of those areas, so sleep, having a hard time staying asleep, falling asleep, having nighttime disturbances, like nightmares, or night terrors, or sleeping too much. Usually, it's to avoid that might be a sign of stress eating, we either eat too much, because we're trying to sell suit or make ourselves feel better with food, or we're not eating enough because we're not attending to those social social cues that you didn't get the eating cues, association cues. Also, I just read a really interesting study about "hangriness". I don't know if anyone gets hangry. Yeah, I do. And so my kiddos, well, there's a good reason for that our cortisol levels are inversely related to how full or hungry we are. So we get really hungry. Our cortisol levels skyrocket. And so it's all about glucose and cortisol levels. And so there's a real again, a real reason why we get hangry.Hannah Choi 27:04That's also validating, to hear Yeah, right.Dr. Alison Roy 27:08Not crazy. There's reason why I get hangry. So bring snacks always bring snacks, and then digestion. And so if you have a kiddo, or yourself who's got some tummy troubles going on, you just always feel like you've got an upset stomach, even we feel this in very small amounts, if we're going to give a presentation or we have something that we're quite anxious or nervous for, right, we get that butterflies in our stomach. So all of this just kind of combined, is I find it validating. It makes me feel like okay, there's real stuff going on, when we start to become really stressed and go into that stress mode. So, yeah,Hannah Choi 27:44Great, thank you. I feel like something that I just have noticed in my life. And just everything that I hear from people is I feel like people talk sort of peripherally about sleep and make sure you sleep enough, make sure you eat enough, make sure you know, you're exercising or whatever. But but it almost feels like it's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know. But it's true. You really do need to, it's that conversation. I feel like needs to be taken more seriously. Or something. We need to change the message somehow this is not just Yeah, yeah, thing like, need to, like really address it.Dr. Alison Roy 28:25Yeah. And if you think about if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs another really great accessible thing to Google will really resonate with a lot of listeners, I bet. But Maslow's hierarchy of needs is all about how do you achieve your full greatness, essentially, and you have to start the bottom part of the triangle, the bottom part of that triangle, the first step to achieving greatness is taking care of the most basic of needs. And if you don't do that, you can't move up the ladder. And so there is very good solid research decades and decades of research around sleep and eating and just the basic needs needing to be taken care of because our brain needs rest in order to have that ability to have neuroplasticity and grow and change.Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah, yeah. Yep. Great. So how is so how does so can you give some examples of like in someone's household, like how this kind of stress might impact everybody? Yeah, parents down to kids.Dr. Alison Roy 29:26Yeah. Yeah. So I always think about, you know, I, so I, I work a lot with the director of psychiatry at Dartmouth, and he and I have become really good friends and I have a really tough situation I'm working through I often call him and I did that for one of the families I was working with. I said, I just need some help. I need some strategies on what to do next. And he's said, sounds like you've got a polyvagal storm happening in that family. And I loved that concept of that image of that poly vagal reaction. I was just describing fight flight or freeze, if you're all having it individually as a family, you're all going to be having it as a family unit. And because our brains do play off each other. So there's lots of really good research out there about mirror neurons, which are also part of our frontal lobe. And our mirror neurons talk to other human brains, especially ones that we're very connected to. So our family members, all of our mirror neurons are very, very connected. And so when we start to get stressed, meaning us as parents, our kids brains are going to automatically respond to that. And it's crazy, if you were to, if you were to spend a lot of time being stressed as parents, and you looked at your cortisol levels, and even though your kids are experiencing that stressor, maybe it's a stressor at work, or you know, it's adult stuff that your kids aren't necessarily aware of, but there's cortisol levels are going to rise to meet yours. So our brains are very interconnected in that way and can play off each other stress wise. So it is important, we as parents are guilty of not taking care of ourselves very well sometimes. But if I can, yeah, it's hard if I can get you to buy into doing some self care for for you, but also for your kiddos, because the more you stay regulated, the more likely they're also going to be regulated. And you won't get caught up in that polyvagal storm.Hannah Choi 31:26Yeah, I remember that so much. Especially when my kids were younger. I I just remember thinking like, oh, yeah, this is we're all we're all like feeding off of each other right now. Nobody is helping anybody right now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember one particular moment, right after my son was born. So now. So at this point, I have like, maybe like a month old baby, and then a three year old and then me. And then my husband was working from home. And he came up from his basement office, and the three of us were sitting on the couch crying. He was like, oh, no, what happened? And I knew what happened. Yeah. We all I'm sure needed a snack. Dr. Alison Roy 32:09Yeah, and probably a nap. So yeah, we started there, or you're probably tired, or you're probably hungry. SoHannah Choi 32:17Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a strategy that we teach our clients that you maybe you've even heard of, because I don't think we came up with it. HALT stands for like hungry, angry or anxious, Lonely or Tired. And it's such a good thing to check in, check in on.Dr. Alison Roy 32:32Yeah, and one of the, one of the ways so we've we've already talked about a couple of the ways to stop this polyvagal response from happening in his tracks, is to, you know, figure out basic needs or there's some sort of basic need, because if you're hungry, if you're tired, you will trigger that red brain response. Whether even if like your amygdala picks up on nothing else in the environment. Unfortunately, your amygdala also picks up on internal cues. So even if you're thinking about something that's stressful, your amygdala will also pick up on that. So even if the environment around you is as calm as can be. So um, so yeah, we always talk about that strategy. But also, you know, if you're like, Okay, well know that they've gotten enough sleep. And we don't need a snack right now, we just had a snack connection, human connection. So let's fix that loneliness, like you just said, is actually the number one way to decrease that red brain response. Because if you remember the Blue Brain, you've got partial Blue Brain online, when you're even when you're in that red brain response. And that that Blue Brain is looking for MI loved. And if you're able to connect with someone, and it doesn't have to be very long research shows it has to be even 30 seconds of connection. So a hug, can can calm that red brain or at least bring a little bit more of the blue and green brain back online.Hannah Choi 33:56I remember learning about that. Like she called it a 20-second hug in the book "Burnout". Yeah, yeah. And as one way to, like close that stress loop. And so the other day, my son had a really stressful morning before school, and, and he was really having a hard time. And I was like, You need a 20-second hug. Come here. Yeah, I was like, Mom, I don't have time for a 20-second Hug. Dude, you need it. So, I scooped him up. I'm like, Just relax into me for 20 seconds. I think we lasted maybe 10 seconds.Dr. Alison Roy 34:30I think that's funny. So two thoughts about that. One is parents always asked me but what if they're not wanting a hug in that moment, and I and I get that I've been there. I don't have teenagers yet. But I can imagine with teenagers that's particularly hard. So sometimes I say to him, I said, Do you need a hug to my own kids? And they'll say no. And sometimes I'll say, well, I need one. And that's not untrue. Actually, there's a lot of times where we're having some sort of stress response together and I could use a hug as well. And that'll Almost always loops almost always get them so. But the other thing I wanted to say about that is I taught from the book "Burnout" for several years. And I love that book. I love that. It speaks our language, right of like the brain's response to burnout. And someone came back to me and said, you know, you talked about the 20-second Hug. And my husband and I have now decided when we get an argument, we're going to stop and do a 20-second hug and then continue the argument. And she said, It works every time to do that's awesome. It's super awkward because it's, if you actually time 20 seconds, it's a long time to be so funny. I was like, That's a great story. I love it.Hannah Choi 35:41I love that. Yeah. It's funny. That's, that's, that's great advice. And I actually learned that a long time ago when my daughter was one I was at I was in a mom's group and someone in the moms' group brought an astrologist to the moms' group. And she just did like little mini readings on all of our kids. And she told me, she said, you're Yeah, it was very cool. She said, Your daughter is not going to be a hugger. But she's going to need hugs. So you're gonna have to tell her that you need a hug in order to get her to get the hugs that she needs. So I've always used that for her. Dr. Alison Roy 36:21Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And 'cause some people aren't naturally that way. Yeah.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah. And that reminds me of the article that we talked a little bit about the last time you presented that, or in the New York Times article, where the teacher I think, asked, "Do you need to be hugged, heard or helped?" And, and I love that, and I love that she said that she finds that most people just want to be hugged. Which which shows, yeah, you do need that physical touch.Dr. Alison Roy 36:50Right? Yeah. So most people in that I think what happens when we become stressed is or when we see a loved one being stressed. So as a parent, especially I find this when our kiddos are stressed or upset or frustrated, or whatever that big powerful emotion is. It's hard for us to tolerate that distress because we love them. And we don't want to see them hurting. And also, it's upsetting to us. So we start to have reaction that we don't like, either. So it's really hard to watch that. And so what we typically end up doing, I think I talked about this is trying to fix, because our heap, that's what our human brain does, our human brains are problem solving machines. And so they like to be able to solve the problem and move on. But as we know, most problems aren't solvable. And so when we need come up against something that's not solvable, or that's uncertain, or doesn't have any answer, it does send that secondary brain red brain reaction. And so, as parents, it's hard to pull it back and go to that. Do you need a hug? Do you need to be heard? Or do you need to be helped? Because we jumped to the helped part. And a lot of the times when we're upset, we're not ready to be helped. And I think I said this too, when we were talking earlier is that men, dads, tend to go to help even quicker, like that male kind of response. I'm sorry, that's your male brain. I'm sorry. Yeah. They are the problem-solvers. And so really helping just us as parents learn. Asking that question first helps to slow things down. To give that hug to hear them out to validate validation doesn't mean you agree, you can say I'm sorry, you're sad. Sounds like you're sad, anything like that, even if you think it's ridiculous at their side, and this will be up here and that internal dialogue, right, this is crazy. I can't believe I'm validating the side of this right now. Yeah, they need to be heard. And then you can get to that problem solving piece if they're when they're ready for it and you allow those first two steps to happen. Usually, then they're on board for Okay, let's move forward. How do we do that?Hannah Choi 38:58And the easiest way to do that, I imagine is if you are regulated yourself, and yeah, accessing that your frontal lobe and your executive function skills, you need that perspective taking and cognitive flexibility, right, empathy. Dr. Alison Roy 39:13Yeah, so it's always okay to take a minute. I talked sometimes about the show "Bluey". When I talked to parents, and I don't know if you're, we're a big Bluey fan in our house andHannah Choi 39:24My kids are too old.Dr. Alison Roy 39:26Yeah, oh, that's too bad. You should watch it anyways. Um, yeah, it's totally entertaining his parents, but there's an episode where the mom and the two there's two little girls and the well, they're all dogs, but they are, you know, it's after school very clearly. And the kids are like, oh, oh, and mom's making snacks. And she's looking a little stressed and the dad comes home and she's like, I need a minute. And he's like, yep, yep, no problem. And so she goes and takes 20 minutes. And chaos ensues while she's gone, but adorable chaos. But you know, it's always okay to take that time to say, I just need a minute to be able to then come back and as long as you come back around and are fully engaged. Yeah, so, and Dan Siegel talks about that as well, in his book, Parenting From the Inside Out, he does a really great job of talking about engaged, sometimes you're ready to engage, you come home from work, you walk in the door, let's do it, I want to play Legos. And I want to get down on the floor, and I want to engage, and I'm gonna see all the things you did at school today. There are other times we come in the door. Likely, it's those times when our red brains already been activated before we come in that door. And we're just not ready to go down that path with our kids. Yep. And it's okay to say I just need 10 minutes, set a timer, and I'll be right there with you, and then just loop back around with them. And that that repair that coming back around can be just as powerful if not moreHannah Choi 40:48And such good role modeling for your kids. That it's showing them it's okay to do that. Yeah. So I haveDr. Alison Roy 40:55Impulse control. Yeah, our new society is on demand. And so have prolong that reward. It's super, super beneficial for their frontal lobe. So yeah,Hannah Choi 41:09I have a friend who has shared with me that it's, she finds it very difficult to take that pause, she, she immediately reacts, she, like immediately yells or immediately wants to fix something. And it's really difficult for her to just breathe and stop. And so do you have any recommendations for parents who might feel that way?Dr. Alison Roy 41:30Yeah, so some of us are naturally chemically made that way, well, we're just more reactive. So I would say in the moment to try to take a breath to try to remind yourself to that pause, remember hug, heard or helped, right. So just in that moment, trying to remember those steps. So that's something there's also a lot to regulating when we're not dysregulated. So working in regulation to try to ease off that irritability when we're not in the moment. So that's always something I try to recommend to parents get that regular, regular diet of regulatory moments, and they don't need to, I don't need to be big. And I think that was something I needed to hear, especially during the pandemic is, you know, like I said, three to five minutes, if it's a regulatory activity that you enjoy, whether it's taking a walk, or getting some fresh air, getting sunshine, or listening to a good song or podcast, you don't need a ton of time. And it can be less 30 seconds or less if you're just doing that physical connection. So just trying to weave those in throughout your day, to kind of keep that irritability level a little bit lowerHannah Choi 42:37The baseline, get the baseline lower. Dr. Alison Roy 42:39The baseline, right? We want to keep in that tolerance there. And then the last thing I will say is, it's okay, if that's your natural personality, or if you're in it right now, you know, meaning like maybe all three of your kids are under the age of five, and you're spending a lot of time in that zone. Because what can be even more powerful is if you have that snap reaction, the moment is being able to come back around and say, I'm sorry, I wasn't my best self. And here's how we how can we do better next time and making it about the week? It's about the pair? It's about that dyad a parent child, how can we do better next time. And that is, it's so so powerful, the repair. And it's also a really good role modeling of accountability, I just read a really good article about, we want our kids to be accountable. And accountability isn't something that's naturally kind of within us fully, we have to have that modeled and demonstrated for us. And the parent apology is so powerful and modeling accountability. And then the last piece, I'll say about that, yeah, that was I was cool article for me to read. I thought, Oh, this is really cool that we want our kids to be accountable, we have to demonstrate that. And the last thing I'll say about that is is changing the way we talk about apologies and this is something I've been pretty. Ever since learning this I've really helped my kids kind of understand this and as a family understand this is when we apologize, it's we don't have to say it's okay. There are times when it's okay, and we can say that's okay. There are times when it's not okay. And so it's better to say thank you for apologizing, because it makes it more about the weight of the apology and appreciating that than it is about the action that causedHannah Choi 44:22Right, right, right. Something that I remember from your presentation, during the pandemic, you talked about how repetition like repetitive behaviors can be really calming to the brain. Can you share a little bit about that?Dr. Alison Roy 44:40Yeah, so rep got repetitive, rhythmic? Any sort of anything like that? Can be it resonates with that bottom part, that red part of our brain, and that's something that we are wired for as humans from the get go. So when we're in utero, we're being regulated by our moms, right, there's nothing that we can do to regulate ourselves. So we're being regulated by, certainly her body temperature, her way of feeding us, but also her body movements, or rhythmic movements and her heartbeat. And so we are pre programmed to have that resonate with the most primal part of our brain. And so the brain scans that they've done just show when we do these repetitive rhythmic movements, how it engages and lights up that bottom part of the brain shows us or demonstrates to us that that's really that's the language of that part of the brain. So if we want to regulate that part of the brain, so that's why swinging. So you see kids that are, you know, have those swings at school. So swinging, walking or running is so helpful. So they'll actually there's been studies done where kids with speech and language delays, they'll put them on a treadmill and have them do their like activities on a treadmill and how much more productive they are, because it's just regulating that caught in that red part of their brain and the left side. Yeah, so really cool. Drumming. So anything like that, if you can think of rhythmic and repetitive, anything, those two words are really, really regulating coloring. So even this motion of coloring, these things really do work. So again, giving science so what we're told, right, there's like these coloring books, these adult coloring books and yoga and walking and running. And, you know, why are why are these things helpful? Well, there's a real reason why they're helpful. Because it does resonate with that part of our brain.Hannah Choi 46:44Right? I love that. It really, truly does. And I've said this before, so many times on the podcast and all of my clients, I'm sure I'm like, yeah, yeah. But to learn to learn about what's going on in your brain, just helps so much understand, like, why I'm so like, why am I supposed to do these things to help myself? And just knowing that why really, for me, always motivates, motivates my, like, just motivates me in doing those things. Yeah, yeah. So as soon as like, as soon as I learned about how it never even occurred to me, but like, you have to practice your, whatever self regulation strategies you use, you have to practice them so that so that they're easily accessible when it's time to use them. And yes, and it didn't occur to me like, well, we practice walking, so that walking is easily accessible to us when we need it. Or we practice anything like anything that we need to come easily to us. So learning that about, about whatever self regulation strategies that we need to use, yeah, let's practice them. So I just like drive around doing that square breathing. And, yes, and then it just comes so much more easily to me, when I'm in a moment where I'm like, Okay, well, yeah, you know how to do this.Dr. Alison Roy 48:07I always say, practice and have any tools that you might need to regulate, like, I'll go back to the coloring have a coloring book and crayons. Yeah, whatever it is in a designated place, because you go, last thing you want to do is be stressed when you're trying to find your regulation.Hannah Choi 48:20Where's my coloring book? Dr. Alison Roy 48:22Yeah, that is and you talk about practice square breathing, just to go and we'll do one more geeky brain thing but neuronal development is, you know, it's a, if you don't use it, you lose it. So if you don't use parts of your brain that actually will, your brain will prune that area of your brain. And so we definitely want the brain pruning what we want it to prune and not pruning other things. But neurons, we say "neurons that fire together wire together". So the more we use in neuronal pathway, like square breathing, the more wired it becomes, the more quick and accessible. This is why we practice tying our shoes, we practice riding our bikes, you know, as kids, there's lots of examples of that neuronal development of creating that pathway that's quite clunky at first, and then the more you use, it becomes lightning fast, because it's well oiled machine. And so you want that to be true for your coping skills or regulatory skills as well.Hannah Choi 49:18Yeah, I give both my kids play instruments and I, they're so tired of me hearing hearing me talk about executive function skills, and the brain. But I do remind them like, you, when you first got that piece of music, you looked at it and thought, Oh, my brain, like I don't know how to do this. And now you can play it without even looking at the music. And that's such a good evidence that that it is yes, we do get better when we practice and it's so worth it to put effort into the things that we do.Dr. Alison Roy 49:47Yeah, music is part of that rhythmic repetitive. That's why so many of us are regulated by music of some kind.Hannah Choi 49:55Yeah, yeah. So you have anything else that you that's that you want to share with parents who might be struggling in the moment.Dr. Alison Roy 50:05Yeah, I think the last thing I'll end on and this is just something I love talking about, because for me as a parent, I think it changed. The way I parented when I learned this is all about temper tantrums, and where they fit into this profile. So I think I mentioned temper tantrums are red brain reactions. So when we're having one of those temper tantrums, our kids are having one of those temper tantrums because we have we have them as adults. We don't ever stop having temper tantrums. That's a big myth, no, we always have them. But it does look different depending on how much frontal lobe we have. But when our kids are having those temper tantrums, when I was an early parent I was always told to ignore leave them alone, have them leave the room. And what that actually does is create this secondary panic response. Because in that moment, our red brain is looking for hugged helped or you know, heard. And so I always give the example of the first time I learned this about a temper tantrum not to ignore but to actually engage. I tried it. I called I called my colleague after this is all over and said, Oh my gosh, it actually worked does not magic, it actually worked. So my youngest, he was about two, maybe two and a half at the time. And his name is Finnegan and he is fiery Finnegan Riley, and he fits that name perfectly as a fiery Irishman. And he wanted a popsicle. I was like, Oh yeah, sure, buddy. Go ahead and and went into the freezer, and we only had orange popsicles and full blown meltdown. And in that moment, his brain viewed that as a life or death situation. I'm laughing because as adults are like this, isn't it? Yeah. So I was I saying to myself and my in my head, right internal dialogue. This is crazy. But on the outside, I said, Oh, buddy, I know it's so hard when you only only have orange popsicles and you want a red one. I'm sorry, you're sad? How can we help this to go better, I got down, I just sat down on the floor next to him. And just kept kind of saying those things over and over again. And he eventually crawled in my lap and was he was still sad. But was able to then calm down. And you know, when I before I did it, I thought isn't that giving in to the temper tantrum? reinforcing it right? This is what we're always afraid of as parents is reinforcing it. And no giving into the temper tantrum or reinforcing it would be driving to the store and getting that red popsicle. In that moment. All I was doing was giving his red brain what it needed to be able to get that logic and rational thought what little he hasDr. Alison Roy 50:26Whatever he hasDr. Alison Roy 52:40To come back online. Oh, okay, I'm, I'm this is, you know, there's still popsicles just not the color I wanted. And how can we move forward? So yeah, it's not perfect. It's not a perfect science. But, you know, learning that I think, to me really changed the way I parented.Hannah Choi 53:05Yeah. And it is so hard to because we're also probably pretty, if we're not, maybe we're just in our emotional brain, but we're probably also a little bit down in our red brain. So it's hard. We have to, like, get ourselves out of there to be able to do that instead of just yelling it or just slamming the door and leaving the room. Right? Yes.Dr. Alison Roy 53:26Yeah. And I found that reaction to be calming for me to to be like deep breath. Yeah, how crazy this is. Yeah, get on the floor. Right. Right. It's really hard. Yes. You saying it to yourself to man, this is really hard.Hannah Choi 53:41I'm having a hard time. I'm having a hard time. Yeah, yeah. I remember putting my daughter in. She wouldn't she was tantruming for so long. And I was just losing my mind. So I ended up filling the tub. And I put her in clothed in the tub. And she stoppedDr. Alison Roy 54:02Yeah, cuz her amygdala needed something temperature wise. Yep. Yeah,Hannah Choi 54:07yeah. Yeah.Dr. Alison Roy 54:09Do the best. We do the best that we can we doHannah Choi 54:12That's right. That is right. Sometimes they go in the tub clothed. At least I made the water warm. At least I didn't wasn't like you're getting cold.Hannah Choi 54:26All right. Well, thank you so much, Alison. This is just I mean, we know both of us could probably keep talking about this all day. But forever as I Yeah, people probably have places to go or they have like regulating activities to go practice. Dr. Alison Roy 54:41I hope so. Go practice your regulating activities! Hannah Choi 54:44I hope so too. And can you share with our listeners where they can find you and maybe some of your favorite resources that people might want to check us?Dr. Alison Roy 54:53Of course I have a website that I'm super terrible at updating but it does have some good resources on it. Hi, it's Dr. Alison roy.com. All one word, Dr.AlisonRoy.com. And then within that website, there's lots of different links to stuff including my YouTube channel, which is where I save a lot of the good resources that I find is even a playlist for parents and educators. So check that out. Certainly. And, yeah, that's, that's hopefully some resources for you.Hannah Choi 55:25Great, thank you so much. And that's our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you learned something new about your brain. And if you weren't a brain nerd like me and Alison already, hopefully, we've convinced you to join the official club. We'd love to have you. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to some of the topics we cover today. And you can find the links to the slides that Alison referenced. If you know anyone who might be feeling the stress of parenting. Wait a second, I think that's all parents. Please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. You can sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

You may or may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics but in a live setting, it's such a blast and I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about Executive Function skills and discover how life changing they can be to work on. We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our latest webinar, “Your Kid's Not Lazy: How to Unlock Motivation Through Executive Function” to our Focus Forward listeners and share some bonus content for those who happened to be among the 1300 people who registered.This past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, their related Executive Function skills and challenges and some tools and strategies you can use to help make motivation a little easier for your kids and/or yourself. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the q&a feature on Zoom and then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. For this webinar, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So, I invited our panelists, Amy McDuffie and Vin Kachurik to join me the day after to help answer a whole bunch more. Keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our bonus conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills, and self-advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate to. The new section starts around 44:08 if you want to skip right to it! If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, BeyondBookSmart.com. They're always free and we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable.In the meantime, here are some resources related to the episode: Full recording of the webinarMichael Delman's book, Your Kid's Gonna Be OkayBlog on ADHD & MotivationLink to agenda and webinar slides: Info about Executive Function coachingSupporting College Students - including Covey QuadrantsHow to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment ExpertsDr. Lisa Damour's Advice for Motivation to Do HomeworkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscript:Hannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. You may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics. It's kind of like Focus Forward live. It's such a blast. And I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about EF skills, and how life changing working on them can be. Hannah Choi 00:47We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our webinars to our Focus Forward listeners. There's just such good stuff in there, and I wanted you all to be able to hear it too. If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, beyondbooksmart.com. They're always free. And we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable. So this past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, the related EF skills and challenges and some tools and strategies to use to help make motivation a little easier for our kids and ourselves. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the Q&A feature on Zoom. And then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. And this past week, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar, and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So I met up with our panelists, Amy and Vin, the next morning to continue answering them. So keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills and self advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoy today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate do. The audio begins when I introduce our panelists, I figure you wouldn't want to listen to all the housekeeping stuff that I covered in the beginning. And if you attended the webinar, so you've already heard the audio from it, you can jump ahead to 44 minutes to hear these Q&A questions. And now on to the show. Hannah Choi 02:39All right, let's get to know our panelists. Both of our panelists tonight are Beyond BookSmart coaches, and they also provide additional support to both our coaches and our clients caregivers as Executive Function Consultants. And first up, we have Vin Kachurik joining us from Ohio. Vin please tell us about yourself and your roles at Beyond BookSmart.Vin Kachuik 03:01Hi everybody. As mentioned, my name is Vin Kachurik. I use they/them pronouns. I live on a farm in Ohio with my spouse and my elderly Greyhound, he's sleeping over here next to me. I'm an executive function coach and consultant here at Beyond BookSmart. And prior to this, I taught creative and academic writing at the college level for about 10 years. Though, given that most of my students were first years, I feel like a lot of my classes would have been better titled "How to survive college 101". I feel like I spent as much time teaching students to manage the challenge of college as I did teaching them writing. But that experience really helped me develop a lot of the skills that I use now, experience that I hope will be helpful to you today.Hannah Choi 03:43Yes, absolutely. Thanks, Vin. It's really great to have you here with us tonight. Next on our panel is Amy McDuffie joining us from North Carolina. Amy, can you please share your background and the work you do at Beyond BookSmart?Amy McDuffie 03:56Yes, thank you, Hannah. Hi, everyone. I have been a coach with Beyond BookSmart for the past two years. And I'm also a member of our hiring team and an executive function consultant. I use she/her pronouns and my background is in special education, specifically in behavior and learning disabilities working with students from elementary through high school. I'm also a former behavior specialist supporting students from kindergarten through eighth grade with a focus on social emotional learning. I'm also the parent of two pretty awesome teens. I have a 14 year old daughter and a 17 year old son. And I'm so glad that you all are here and I'm really excited to be with you.Hannah Choi 04:39Thank you and welcome, Amy. All right. So let's get started. Motivation itself is not an executive function skill, but it is supported by and made much easier by a bunch of EF skills. If you hear me say EF it's short for executive function. Cognitive flexibility is needed to imagine a future state that is different from now and come up with ways to achieve it. Working memory helps to keep that future goal in mind. organization and planning are needed to sequence the actions to get ourselves to that future state. And task initiation gets it all going. And emotional regulation helps us maintain optimism and persevere despite setbacks. So it's not really surprising that kids with EF weaknesses or ADHD can have concurrent issues with motivation. However, these underlying executive function challenges are often to ignore are often ignored, or unrecognized, or worse, misconstrued as laziness. So all of these EF skills that help with motivation live in the prefrontal cortex, our thinking brain, it's right behind your forehead. So if we have these prefrontal cortexes and EF skills that are supposed to be helping with motivation, why is it still so hard to get motivated? For kids, one huge part of the answer to that question is that their executive function skills are still developing, they're still emerging. And these skills don't fully develop until our mid to late 20s. So in addition to not having access to fully developed EF skills, they also don't have as many years of experience as we do, and learning like what works and what doesn't work. And remembering this can help us be empathetic to our children when they're struggling with motivation. They're not doing it intentionally, or to be contrary, although it can feel that way. They're lacking the skills. And when we view their behavior only through our adult lens, it can set up unrealistic expectations for them. Hannah Choi 06:44Our motivation, and the related EF skills can also be impacted by systems in the brain. The limbic system, and especially the amygdala, which detects threats cannot differentiate between real threats like a car accident, or a bear attack, and perceived threats, like a lot of homework or having to clean your room. And so the limbic system detects the threats, and then says, "Alert, alert, get out of here or fight back, because this does not feel good". And in doing this, it actually hijacks the thinking part of our brain, and it sucks energy and blood and oxygen away from it, and makes it harder, sometimes even impossible to access our EF skills, which as we know, we need to motivate ourselves to do the things we don't want to do. So managing our emotions so that we can stay in the thinking part of our brain is a huge part of conquering motivation. So stay tuned, because we're going to cover the executive function skill of emotional regulation benefit. Another really, really, really important thing to look at is the ADHD brain, and how motivation is impacted by ADHD. Amy, you are our ADHD expert. Can you explain this for us?Amy McDuffie 08:00Yes, thanks, Hannah. So there's some fascinating research on the impact of ADHD on motivation. And understanding these dynamics can really help us to empathize with individuals with ADHD. So ADHD is associated with lower levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine. And this changes how the ADHD brain perceives both reward and pleasure, which causes a lack of enthusiasm for starting or completing tasks. So this might be one reason you have difficulty with motivation if you have ADHD. And this can also mean that kids with ADHD experience much more frustration and failure than they do success, which has a negative impact on their self perception and also increases stress. So this can become a real barrier to getting started, it can become a self reinforcing negative cycle, and also results in less efficient processing because all that stress just makes the brain shut down. And another big difference in the ADHD brain involves the brain structure called the default mode network, which is the part of the brain that activates when we're daydreaming or not focused on a task or activity. And when the brain is directed towards a task or goal, the default network deactivates. But in ADHD, this part of the brain is more often activated, which leads to your focus constantly being pulled away from what you're doing in the moment, and toward completely unrelated thoughts. So that explains why staying focused on really tedious or repetitive tasks can be such a chore with ADHD. It really isn't a matter of will, it's a matter of neurology, and that's why brain based interventions can be really effective for individuals with ADHD. Hannah Choi 09:56Yes, thank you so much, Amy for that. I know it really helps me to understand what's going on in the brain. And I always work with my clients to help them understand. So I hope you all found that helpful too. And if you're concerned that the causes of lack of motivation in you or your child run deeper than EF challenges or ADHD, please reach out to a mental health provider to explore the possibility of depression or another diagnosis. Hannah Choi 10:25Okay, so now that we have a better understanding of how executive function challenges and learning differences, like ADHD can impact motivation, we can see how the label of "laziness" is often unfair. Yet, it can often go a step further, being repeatedly told you're lazy, can weave itself into our perception of ourselves and our inner narrative, like Amy said, and it makes it harder to break free from the label, as you may even begin to believe it yourself. And this is where having someone you can rely on for support, who's outside of yourself, who doesn't have the same perspective of you. And that becomes essential, they can help break those narratives and introduce new habits and ways of thinking. And I know this comes up often for us coaches, and so Vin, could you share a little bit about how you approach breaking that negative narrative with your coaching clients?Vin Kachuik 11:17Yeah, I'm happy to. So as Amy and Hannah both mentioned, that negative thought cycle can be really, really debilitating. So one of the first things I focus on with clients is finding and celebrating those easy wins. My favorite approaches to this are things like acknowledging overlooked successes, and also finding simple goals that are fairly quick to accomplish with little support. So for instance, if a client tells me that every day they get up with their alarm, I am just over the moon for them like to do that consistently is an absolutely amazing skill. It's a solid routine they can build other routines off of and it obviously not everybody can do that. And this shifts the perspective from what the client is not doing that largely comes from those expectations to what they are doing, showing them that they have skills and strengths to be confident in. And if that same client tells me that they want to do something like keep their clothes off the floor, but they just can't start that task of picking them, picking them up and organizing them. A simple win could be just taking the time to say, let's try it now and see what we can get done. There's no expectation of completion of the task here. The goal is to take some of the stress out of just initiating that task, and celebrate whatever progress comes of it, which can often be enough to sort of break that negative mindset. With both of these approaches, though, I always try to understand why the client wants to accomplish a certain task. Because often what reinforces the negative cycle are expectations that don't value the same things that our clients do. undervaluing the ability to consistently get up with your alarm makes the very tools that can help our clients seem worthless to them. And overvaluing. A tidy room can negatively incentivize our clients to prioritize a task that isn't really important to them and often sets them up for failure. So to kind of put it simply -"too long, didn't read", to help turn someone's negative narrative into a positive narrative set up and celebrate an easy win to show them their value, and then reflect on what they value and why.Hannah Choi 13:36Thank you so much. And I love that someone submitted this request with their webinar registration, which I think many of us will relate to. And it also gets to the "why" that Vin was just talking about. One registrant wrote, "Please help me understand why my son can be so motivated to get schoolwork done, but says that closing his dresser drawers and picking clothes up off the floor or cooking himself oatmeal is too much work". This is such a great question because it illustrates how much motivation is affected by whether we want to do this thing or not, whether it's important to us or not. And our parent perspective sure can be very different from our kid's, or even our partner's. So in this example, the student is more motivated to do schoolwork than household tasks. And it may be because his schoolwork is just more important to him. But to his parent, those household tasks are also really important. So how can we reconcile these differences in perspectives? Let's check in with our coaches to see what they have to say.Amy McDuffie 14:44All right, so I want to talk to you about a tool called HALT which stands for hungry, angry or anxious, lonely and tired, which I find to be really helpful to use this tool. These are all general triggers that can lead to poor self-control. And this is a good tool to use before addressing those differences in perspectives and just communication in general. You know, we all know that if someone initiates an important conversation when we're exhausted or haven't eaten all day, it's so much harder to receive the information and have a productive conversation. We're just not as great at communicating when those needs aren't met. And speaking of communicating with our kids, I know that we all want to help to problem solve to jump in and be a fixer. But we really have to remind ourselves that listening is the most important thing we can do when our kids open up to us. And this requires us to really tune in and avoid focusing on our own responses while our kids share their struggles with us. Our colleague, Denise taught me the acronym "WAIT" which stands for "Why Am I Talking?" as a reminder to just listen, we also have to remember that our kids experiences are very different from ours, we really have no idea what it's like to grow up in 2023. And it's just not helpful to operate from the place of "When I was your age...".Vin Kachuik 16:17That's so true, Amy, thank you. And another tool to kind of go along with that that I like a lot for this is Covey quadrants, Covey quadrants or sometimes referred to as the Covey Time Management Matrix, or the Eisenhower Matrix - it's got a lot of names- for prioritizing time, and tasks. So essentially, each task is classified by its urgency and importance, which then organizes it in to one of the four quadrants shown here. So quadrant one is the urgent and important quadrant, it's the top priority, the thing you really need to get done now. An example might be the big math exam is tomorrow, and you need to prepare. The action for this is do it to the best of your ability, complete that task as you can. But keep in mind that putting too many tasks in this quadrant can be overwhelming, and often causes burnout, which may be why, you know, in the question, the kid was like, "Oh, I can't make oatmeal, but I can do my homework". Well, that's because that quadrant was already full. In quadrant two, the not urgent but important quadrant. That's for things like keeping up with an exercise routine. The action for that is scheduled it. This is something that you want to make as routine as you possibly can. And because this is where the deep work and skill building really happens and where most people tend to be at their best. Quadrant three, urgent but not important. Something like it's garbage day, your chores need to be done tonight. An action for that is to either delegate it or ask for help with it. This quadrant often involves learning to set boundaries, and advocating for yourself by asking for help when it's needed, or learning to say no to what you can't accomplish. And lastly, Quadrant Four, the not urgent and not important quadrant. That's for things like watching Tik Toks, or TV. The action for this is unfortunately "delete it". These are often low value instant gratification and avoidance coping strategies, which isn't to say you can never enjoy a little fun and leisure time, but just not to the detriment of other priorities. Vin Kachuik 18:36So if defining urgency and important importance feels a little too subjective to you, something you can do is use just a simple one to 10 rating scale to help clarify the value of each task. Using this framework allows us to better see and illustrate our own value systems. But the most important important part of this is following up with those tasks that aren't as valued. For instance, watching hours of Tik Toks not as an act of laziness or defiance, but recognizing it as a poor coping strategy when faced with a bunch of disorganized and overwhelming tasks that you don't know how to start or manage. Recognizing this provides an opportunity, like Amy was saying, to better understand differing perspectives, and reconcile those differences in expectations that can often lead to conflict.Hannah Choi 19:28Thank you for those, Vin and Amy. And the other strategy that may help with sharing expectations and understanding perspectives is family meetings. And there's a lot of great resources online for learning how to hold effective family meetings. And yes, you'll probably get some pushback from the kids but stick with it. The experts promise that it's worth it in the long run. And you'll want to keep that HALT tool in mind and make sure everyone is well fed and rested before you start the meeting. Hannah Choi 19:54All right, so now that we've learned about the development of executive function skills, motivation and the the brain and how differing perspectives can play a part? Let's look at some specific tools that can support motivation. As many of you asked about this, then and Amy, what are your favorite tools and strategies through their coaching clients to help them get motivated?Vin Kachuik 20:16Oh, so one of my favorite one, it's actually two tools, I use them together. It's a combination of first step and five minute goals. These are two of my absolute favorites. And I tell clients to use this all the time, I find is really effective for task initiation, which can often be the most challenging part of any task. As the name suggests, first step is all about finding the first step to a task that makes sense. And five minute goals makes doing that step seem a little bit more manageable by setting the expectation of only having to do that task for, you guessed it five minutes, after those five minutes, if it's not so bad, then you know, keep going, great. If you can't do it any more than just celebrate that you did at least five minutes of work, which is infinitely more than doing nothing. It seems simple and straightforward. But part of why this is so effective, is that more often than not, we tend to view tasks based on their last step, we make dinner, we finish our homework, we go for a run, and so on. And we lose sight of the initial steps that we need to get there, like deciding what to make for dinner, gathering homework, materials, and warming up for a run. But even knowing where to start isn't always enough to muster the motivation, especially when the steps that follow feel big and insurmountable. So this is really where five minute goals comes in, to better manage those expectations and keep the focus more on those short term steps that ultimately lead you to that task completion.Amy McDuffie 21:50Thanks, Vin, that's really helpful. Another tool that that I like to use to address motivation is called decisional balance. And this tool examines the potential benefits and costs of making a change, and also for keeping things the same. And this can really help determine why making the change or doing the thing is important to you. Even if it's something that you find really mundane, you know, thinking about, is there some bigger benefit down the road. You know, motivation can really be impacted about how we feel about a task. And I just think this is a really great tool. It also supports self regulation, metacognition, and even planning, prioritization and time management skills.Hannah Choi 22:37Yes, thank you, Amy. And I wanted to bring up Covey Quadrants one more time, because in addition to helping us understand each other's perspectives, as Vin shared with us, this tool can also help us with motivation. And by completing the activity of the covey quadrants, you practice the executive function skills of planning and prioritizing. And Covey quadrants can help you define what you truly need to work on first, and because sometimes it can feel like everything is urgent and important, which can make it hard to get started. And so Covey quadrants kind of helps you narrow it down. And it can also remind you of those quadrants and those activities, sorry, in quadrant four, which might provide temporary relief from the discomfort of doing the things in quadrant one and three. But in the long run, these activities can have negative consequences. They divert time away from the important and urgent tasks in quadrant one. And they also divert time away from those energy giving and rewarding activities that are in quadrant two. And if you're having trouble getting buy-in from your child, or even yourself, to do this whole Covey quadrant exercise, you might instead try simply making a list of everything that needs to get done. It sounds simple, but it really does help to get it out of your brain and onto paper. And just like Vin said, thinking about tasks as a whole can feel insurmountable, but seeing them written down one by one can help. Hannah Choi 24:04Okay, so let's quickly visit the emotional right? Let's quickly visit emotional regulation. That's an executive function skill that is key to pretty much everything. That was what we - I mentioned that back when we were talking about the brain. So as we learned, being able to regulate our emotions is a huge, huge piece of the motivation puzzle. And it's much harder to use our EF skills to complete or even start a task if our emotional brain is taking control of the situation, instead of our thinking brain. So panelists, would you please share your favorite emotional regulation tools that help us stay in our thinking brain?Vin Kachuik 24:46Yeah, sure. I'm personally a big fan of breathing - Need it to stay alive but some simple deep breathing techniques can also do wonders for emotional regulation, especially with just a little bit of practice. What I'm particularly fond of is the four by four square breathing technique. So you breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, and hold for four. And there's tons of other variations on that as well. There's ones with visuals, geometric visuals and meditations to follow and things like that. But what I find most effective about this is that it gives something specific to focus on the counting, or the visual gives you something specific. I hear a lot from my clients, especially those with ADHD, that they just they cannot meditate, because they can't keep their mind clear, there's just too many thoughts. And they don't know how to put them aside, counting using the four by four can aid that focus to practice deep breathing, even without a clear mind, and you still get the one of the most beneficial parts of meditation from that.Amy McDuffie 25:53I totally agree with you, Vin. Breathing is such an important tool for emotional regulation. And going back to our HALT tool for just a moment, I think we also need to be mindful of the role that sleep plays and emotional regulation, we can probably all attest to the effects of a poor night's sleep, you know, we tend to be so much more irritable and vulnerable to stress without sleep. So just a few tips for improving sleep, are sticking to a regular wakeup time each day, getting some sunshine in the morning, if possible. This really just helps to reset our internal clocks, and making your bed a sleep haven. So avoiding using it for work or homework. And also avoiding blue screen light because that really stimulates our brains. I also encourage clients to establish a bedtime routine that includes calming activities, leading up to that time, you know, something like reading or practicing that deep breathing. Even using an adult coloring book can be really soothing, really just anything that signals to our brains that we are preparing for sleep.Hannah Choi 27:04 Yes, so important. Thank you so much for sharing those, Amy and Vin, those I use those, they work very well for me. And I also need to make sure I get a lot of exercise. And I also noticed my kids do a lot better when they've been active. So something to remember is that with these emotional regulation tools, and any of the other tools we mentioned tonight, we have to practice them regularly for them to do us any good. They need to be able to come easily to us when we need them. And that's only going to happen if we practice them. And sometimes kids can be resistant to using external tools. So what we can do is normalize using them by using them ourselves. And we can show them like, "Hey, I'm gonna write this down. So I don't forget it" or "My day is going to be crazy. So I'm going to write down everything that I need to do". And so showing them that you can use those external tools and have it be really helpful. Okay, so we're going to jump into our Q&A, and see what questions we can answer for you. Thank you for dropping some in there. Let's see. Hey, Amy, would you like to share how we can teach executive function skills over the summer summers coming up?Amy McDuffie 28:15Sure. I think summer is a really great time as coaches to work with clients on EF skills, because it really gives us the opportunity to work with clients in a you know, low stakes, low pressure situation, you know, looking at what their goals are, what their interests are. Personally, I have really enjoyed coaching in the summer by tapping into clients' interests. Last summer, I worked with a client who wanted to learn how to create a graphic novel. So we took that project and, you know, basically identified all the tiny steps to take along the way to, you know, to reach the bigger goal of developing that graphic novel and worked in so many EF skills along the way. So, yeah, there's just so many fun things to do over the summer with coaching.Hannah Choi 29:11Great, thank you. All right. So let's see. Here's another one. What are some strategies to help kids who know what they are supposed to do and how, but still avoid the task because they find it boring, time consuming and not engaging for their level of intelligence?Vin Kachuik 29:30I can take that one. Hannah Choi 29:33Okay, thanks, Vin. Vin Kachuik 29:35There's so first of all, a little personal background from that -been there. And both personally and professionally. One of the best recommendations I have is, honestly, I had another layer of challenge to what they're doing. I mean, a lot of times creativity and intelligence kind of go hand in hand. And so there's a lot of opportunity to invite a creative perspective on how They approached that work, maybe, you know, taking it up a notch to do beyond what the assignment asks for. And to do part that something is a little bit more interest to them, even if it means a little bit more work, at least there'll be a little bit more engaged in doing that. And sometimes to the other option, that I find is that a lot of times, a lot of times clients and students who have done that, or struggle with that, they're not being challenged enough in other ways, even just beyond the classroom. So even just affording an opportunity prioritizing something that is more fun and stimulating to them, can kind of open them up to like, Okay, well, that was great. So I feel good. Now I can just tackle these other tasks. Easy peasy.Hannah Choi 30:48Yes,Amy McDuffie 30:49I love that. Hannah Choi 30:50All right, I see a question that I'm gonna steal. How do you stay motivated through transitions, my kids always struggle with change, and their already rocky systems tend to crumble? Yes, this is very tricky. I actually interviewed a licensed clinical social worker for this, her name is Rachel Hulstein-Lowe. And you can listen to that episode, if you go back a few episodes in there in our podcast. And yeah, we talked for a long time about that, and how challenging that really is. And those transitions can come, they can be expected transitions, like the beginning of the school year, the end of the school year holidays, or they can be unexpected transitions, like you have to move or, you know, just some some unexpected change that can happen. And the most important thing is to have some thing for your kids to fall back on. So they have like a really safe place at home, they feel really comfortable at home. So a lot of that, like validation and connection that we can make with our kids to to give them a safe place to feel to be. And then also the sleep, nutrition, exercise. Those three are huge. Without taking care of those, it's very difficult to manage those already rocky systems. And so it can sound silly to just to say that those are important, but they truly, truly are. And then also practicing some mindfulness can be really helpful too. So, you know, just take some time to be in your body and to see how you feel. And to just check in with that can also be really helpful with that emotional regulation that comes with those challenging transitions. Hannah Choi 32:36So, all right. Let's see. Um, let's see, how do you support a 10 year old who is reluctant to change? Anybody want want to dive in for that?Amy McDuffie 32:54I'm happy to jump in on that one.Hannah Choi 32:57Thanks, Amy.Amy McDuffie 32:57Thank you. Sure. So working with with a younger client who's reluctant to change, you know, I think it all comes down to just being able to connect with them and find out what's important to them, even at 10 years old, they're gonna have strong opinions and interests of their own. So I think it's really important to tap into that with them. And then, you know, also see, you know, what is motivating to them? What are they motivated by in their interests? And, you know, look at, you know, kind of bigger picture, like, do they see areas where, you know, of their strengths, what are their strengths and areas that they need to, you know, maybe potentially grow in. And if you're able to kind of, you know, access that that gives you an opportunity to really work with them on, you know, let's see where we can make some small changes and just kind of experiment with some making some changes and see what happens.Hannah Choi 33:59Yeah, and that's why when we work with our clients, we never, like give extra work or anything, we just work with what our clients are already doing. So that can be helpful to get that buy in and make that connection is, in some is meeting them where they are. Hannah Choi 34:20All right, let's see, oh, someone would like Vin to share a few more examples of how to increase engagement by adding a layer of challenge.Vin Kachuik 34:30Sure. So one that I like a lot, actually. And this helps in two ways is actually timing your work giving limited chunks of time to do it. So basically challenging, so like, how can you get this done in an hour? Yeah, you're smart. You're good at writing, right? You know, can you write this paper in an hour? I bet you can. Yeah. And not only so that does a couple of things. One, it gives them a time limit to stay focused on the task. so they don't sort of lose themselves in the weeds and get bored. And then again, adds that layer of challenge to it. But the other could be something along the lines of, you know, giving them the freedom and flexibility or challenging them to do extra research into what they're doing. You know, if they're doing a set of math problems they know how to do, and it's just really boring to them. Then you ask them to maybe find new math problems or harder math problems, ask them to explain those math problems, to you to be the authority to be the teacher is the all of these are really good ways to add an extra level of challenge and also responsibility that can kind of take them out of that. This is routine. This is boring, I don't want to do it, feeling.Hannah Choi 35:47Love it. Let's go back to the brain. Amy, you noted that low levels of neurotransmitters means that successes can be less reinforcing for those with ADHD. If this is the case, do small wins or other strategies help someone with ADHD initiate tasks?Amy McDuffie 36:06That is such a great question, isn't it? Yes, yes. So yes, the answer is yes. Those small wins, absolutely help someone with ADHD, initiate tasks. As coaches, our job is often to help clients recognize those small wins, I find that working with clients with ADHD, they tend to have more difficulty, you know, recognizing what the small wins are, or just not seeing not seeing them at all. And we really have to, you know, look for those small steps that they're taking, and help them to recognize that, you know, because that's a bigger part of the issue is, you know, the, the negative reinforcement that they've received, and, you know, kind of that perpetuating, you know, narrative, and, you know, experiences of failures. So, it really is helpful to recognize even what we consider those small wins to help them get started.Hannah Choi 37:08That's great. Thank you. All right. My child is entering college in the fall. Any tips to help prepare for this change? It's a big one.Vin Kachuik 37:20Oh, man. So there's, yeah, there's a lot college is crazy. There's a lot to prepare for, for that. Um, honestly, I think the biggest thing and the most price specific advice I can get give is self advocacy. It's navigating college is really a matter. Like, I there's this mentality, that when you go into college, you have to listen to what everybody else says and does all the time. But like they're there to serve you. You're paying to go there, your education is a matter of what you choose and get out of it. So there's a lot of self advocacy needed, especially in terms of saying, hey, I need help with this, Hey, I need help with that. How do I do this? And there's tons of resources on campus, the best and most successful students I've seen are the ones who are not afraid to walk into somebody's office and be like, Hey, can you help me? And like, nine times out of 10, that person will, because that's their job. That's what they're there to do. So tell them you know, really tell them, Don't be afraid. You are ruler of the roost, king of the castle, they're, they're there to help, you know, and you have to advocate for what you need.Hannah Choi 38:32Yes, I always encourag/make my college clients make sure that their teacher knows their name by the end of the second week. And it has come in handy. So many times when they've had to remember I had one client who had to miss midterm because she was really sick but because she had developed a relationship with a teacher, that teacher was completely understanding and was really gentle with her and allowed her to schedule it on a different day.Vin Kachuik 39:04And the more you talk, the more you self advocate that yes, yes. And absolutely. And it makes that whole process so much smoother.Hannah Choi 39:12Yes, a lot of feedback that I get from my college clients is that they were scared or really nervous to approach their teacher. But then afterwards, they realize, Oh, they're just human. And then they were not they realized that they didn't have to be nervous, and then it was just so easy to do it the next semester. Yeah. Something else that I recommend for for entering college is just understanding that 80/20 switch. So when you're in high school, you know, like, the 80% of it is done, maybe like in in school, or with a lot of support and then 20% of it you're going to do on your own, but it's the complete opposite in college and there's just 20% of support given and then you are sponsible for that other 80%. And that can be really shocking. I had a client say to me, I realized that I have to spread out my work over a few days, and not just do it all like the night before it's due, which is usually what we have to do in high school, just do it the night before it's due. So that's a good thing to keep in mind. Hannah Choi 40:18All right, um, okay, so since this webinar addresses kids, are there any suggestions for motivation that apply to adults? I just want to say that everything all of this can use for adults.Vin Kachuik 40:37Apps? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, really, any of this, this, this is not stuff that's unique to kids. There's plenty of adults who struggle with this, I would say, probably the best suggestions I have are for really kind of going back to that self reflection and understanding your values value system. It can get very easy to get sucked into the rat race of doing things to other people's expectations, and to the detriment of yourself. So I would say the tools that we use, like HALT, you know, checking, regulating yourself that way, because you can't help anybody else. If you haven't helped yourself, it's like oxygen masks on an airplane. And, and honestly, also, the Covey quadrants are a great way to kind of break down your day and your routine and say, like, what is really important to me right now? Yeah, it literally addresses that what is important, because it can be easy to get lost in things like saying, Well, my work is important, doing the dishes are important. But maybe in a given moment, spending some time with your family is actually the thing that's most important, it gives you that that sense of longing, or that sense of sorry, family and like reduces that sense of longing that you may feel that loneliness and HALT, right, and also just strengthens those bonds.Hannah Choi 42:03I love that. All right. I think we have time for one more. Do you have a suggestion of digital planners or calendars for those who have reading and writing struggles, maybe dyslexia and ADHD, who need more executive function help?Amy McDuffie 42:21I'm happy to jump on this one, Hannah. Thanks, Amy. Sure, sure. So absolutely. Digital planners and calendars are so helpful. I highly recommend Google Calendar, it's easy to use, it syncs across devices. And you know, even you know, younger children with access can even utilize them as well. I utilize them with both of my children just with us planning events and appointments so that they know what's coming up. And it's really helpful. There are so many other apps to use. As planners as well, there's iStudiesPro, My Study Life, I know that that one is free, and I believe it was actually developed by a students with along with her mom, it's a really good one. And I know a lot of clients who also use the Todoist app as well. So there are just a number of them out there. And just on a personal level, I also really, I knew this is not digital, but I use a bullet journal for myself along with my Google calendar. And it's just a great way to kind of list out all of my to do's each day in conjunction with my calendar.Vin Kachuik 43:37I add one thing to that bullet journal. Yeah, they did the motivation. One of the things I love about physical planners, is I always suggest to my clients, customize them personalized for them, and stickers, raw all over them. Because honestly, we like pretty things. And if it's pretty attractive, we're gonna use it more. Absolutely.Hannah Choi 44:01I love it. That's my combo, too is the Google Calendar and a bullet journal can't live without it. Hannah Choi 44:08Okay, so this is where we ended our Q&A section of the webinar. Now keep listening to hear the rest of the conversation that I recorded with Amy and Vin the next morning, which I might add was Vin's first day of vacation. Thank you, Vin for taking some time out of your first day off to add your insights to our answers to these great questions. Hannah Choi 44:31Hey, Vin and Amy, welcome back. We had so many awesome questions at the end of last night's webinar that we just really wanted to get back into and answer some of them right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for joining me again.Vin Kachuik 44:48Sure. Thanks so much. It was great last night. Yeah.Amy McDuffie 44:51It was so fun.Hannah Choi 44:54Yeah, people ask such good questions, too. I always wish we could see them. That's the one thing that I don't like about I did it. I feel a little disconnected from our audience. So. Vin Kachuik 45:04So that is the part that you miss. Yeah, getting that like good audience feedback is really?Hannah Choi 45:13Yeah, it's like everyone has masks on, right? Yeah. Yeah, so let's dive in. Let's see, what's the first one? All right, what are the strategies to develop motivation and teenagers with Oppositional Defiant Disorder? What a great question.Amy McDuffie 45:34That is a really, really good question, Hannah. Honestly, I think that the strategies are pretty much the same as what we have already discussed. But just knowing that it takes so much more time, a lot of patience, you know, to work through those strategies. And, you know, really sharpening this communication skills that we had talked about is really, really important here. And I think that, you know, any opportunities for, you know, autonomy, and, you know, giving the child ownership in the process is super important in these situations.Vin Kachuik 46:14Amy? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean interrupt. I just in the webinar last night, you talked about like, the there's a lot of talk about, like the neurotransmitters basically, acknowledging the bad more than the good a lot of times. And do you think that Oppositional Defiant Disorder, like one of the issues is that being told to do something takes away that feeling of personal success and value of the task? Because you're doing it for somebody else's expectation? And not really your own? That makes it feel like extra negative? I don't know, does that tie in at all?Amy McDuffie 46:46I think it does, because I think that, you know, again, that that piece of autonomy is so important here. So I think that's a really good point, then. And, you know, kind of going back to that, you know, negative track piece, I think that this is another situation where, I mean, that's a hard diagnosis to have for a kid. It really is. And, you know, I'm always concerned, like when I see that label of what the child's perception is, and what they understand about that. So I think that that's all really important to take into account here. And I really love I love working with, with teens and kids that, you know, have ODD because I feel like, it's such a great opportunity to really connect with them. And that is the most important piece and to build that trust. And just to get to know them as a person versus, you know, what the, you know, what the label says, or what the challenges are. And something that I have found to be really effective is, you know, really trying to set them up for opportunities for success, you know, what are their strengths? And, you know, giving them opportunities for leadership, you know, how can we build their self confidence, you know, to combat some of that, you know, the negative, you know, framing that they've had for however long.Vin Kachuik 48:13Ties back into those easy wins strategy, like acknowledging what they're good at? And yeah, what's that? What's an easy task that we can support that they can do well.Amy McDuffie 48:22exactly, exactly. Yeah,Hannah Choi 48:24I had a, I had a client who I started working with her when she was a junior, and then through her senior year, and she had oppositional defiant disorder. And, and I did notice that, in the beginning, it was, well, I just noticed that biggest change in our interactions and her openness to try new things, was after a while, and after she learned that she could really trust me, and that I was like, trying to help her build that autonomy. And it took a while, but I did see a big shift in in her. I don't know her willingness to work with me, and to work on making some change after we had developed a really strong rapport.Amy McDuffie 49:10That collaboration piece is just so so important here. So yeah, great,Vin Kachuik 49:16Honestly, that I feel like that kind of ties into, because I saw that a lot with like, college age clients back when I used to teach college too. There's that mindset of, well, I have to only do what I'm told and I can't do. Like, I'd like I can have autonomy. What is that? I don't know her. And, like, I think that really ties into a lot of the struggle kind of jumping ahead of like pursuing the support services in college that we were alluding to back in the webinar. Like, I know that admitting admitting that you need help, too, is also a really hard part of the process. And again, I feel like the autonomy and the trust are the big parts of getting somebody to admit that they need help, like knowing that they're not going to be chastised for it or, you know, like made fun of or torn down or anything like that. Because again, there's just there's so much I hesitate to say fragile ego. But when, when the systems that you've been taught aren't working for you, and you've spent your whole life feeling like you're behind everybody else, you know, where do you develop the self esteem and the self confidence? You know?Hannah Choi 50:32Yeah. All right. And actually, I love that we started talking about that, because that was one of our additional questions that we got last night, pursuing us support services in college. So that's great. We addressed that as well. All right, I'm kind of on the same theme. is starting school, a starting a new school, a good time to start new habits? Or is that too much? What are your thoughts on that?Amy McDuffie 51:00I love that question. I think it's the perfect time to start new habits, because you know, starting a new school or a new school year, I mean, that is that is a fresh start. So I feel like that's the perfect opportunity to try doing some things differently. You know, getting into a different routine, and establishing, you know, those habits, figuring out what works. So yeah, I think it's the perfect time. Hannah Choi 51:27I think Vin's point about like, small, small things, like start small, maybe not overhaul your entire life.Vin Kachuik 51:37But I think another advantage of starting fresh is that there's fewer bad habits to have to break or overcome. First. I mean, that's one of the things that's kind of difficult about habit building, we'd like to think in terms of like building good ones. But a lot of times that means overcoming bad one, yes. Once that we don't even realize or habit. Right? Right, right. So starting in a new situation, you're a little bit more self aware. Sometimes that translates to self conscious, which can be a little overwhelming, but you know, you're more aware of new surroundings and all of that. So I think it's easier to avoid falling back into bad habits and building new ones fresh, as long as you start small.Hannah Choi 52:18Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important to take time to reflect on what your previous experience has been, and what you liked about that, what worked for you and what didn't work for you, and what you want to change in the future. Because if you can spend some time having that conversation with someone who's going to be really supportive and open for that conversation, it can really help to narrow down what you want to start with, like what, what small goals you want to set for yourself. So that self reflection piece is really helpful in that in that instance. Great,Vin Kachuik 52:56Aefinitely a challenge of habit building, though, is taking it not just starting small, but taking a theoretically, I'm just like thinking, I'm thinking of the example of like all the people who are like, you know, New Year's resolutions style habit building of like, I'm gonna start my new diet and go to the gym, and, you know, I'm gonna be perfect and all of that. And it's like, okay, good luck with that, because, like, new skills and habits, you know, and you're like, expecting results in a day and setting super high expectations, and it just doesn't work that way.Amy McDuffie 53:26Yeah. And I think that like, that's a big piece of starting, you know, starting anything new is also looking at, like, you know, what's likely to trip you up? What's likely to get in the way here of, of this working for me, because it's, I think it's really easy for us all to, you know, to set goals. And unless we look at like, really, what are the obstacles? And how do I address those? You know, I think we can not be as successful if we don't look at those pieces too.Vin Kachuik 53:57Reckless ambition, the dark side of motivation.Hannah Choi 54:02I always ask my clients is the goal that you're setting realistic and reasonable, right? Like, be honest, let's look at you know, all of your life experience so far, Is this realistic and reasonable? Because you want to set yourself up for success? Nothing worse than not reaching any of your goals because you've set them too big? Right? Hannah Choi 54:24Um, okay. Here's a coaching question. How often would someone need to meet with an executive functioning coach to make it effective? Once a week, every other week more than once a week? I think well, it just really depends on the client. I think once a week is a great starting place. Sometimes I've done twice a week, maybe broken that larger time down into smaller chunks. What about you guys?Amy McDuffie 54:54Yeah, I do think it's a good place to place to start Excuse me. You know, just depending on what the needs are, and you can always, you know, make adjustments from there.Hannah Choi 55:04I think what it comes down to is consistency. Right? Right. So whatever, whatever you determine is the right amount of sessions or the right duration or frequency. It's the consistency makes a huge difference. Very important with anything, right? Yeah. Yeah, true. Basically with anything.Amy McDuffie 55:23Yeah, keeping that momentum going is so important.Hannah Choi 55:28Yeah, yep. Yep. All right, once a child gets interested in something that they wanted to do, how do you keep them motivated to continue with it, like clubs, clubs or sports, they love the sport and playing, but they don't want to go to practice.Amy McDuffie 55:43Oh, my goodness, this is so familiar, Hannah, just as a parent. So my, my response to this might be a little, a little different. But I just having had personal experience with this in my home with my kids. I, you know, we do things a little differently now. And, you know, when there's interest in, let's say, playing soccer this season, you know, we sit down and have the conversation about what those expectations are, and what it means to commit to doing this thing. You know, there gonna be days where you don't feel like going or you don't want to go, or you're just not as interested at times. But you know, we really talk about is upfront expectations so that we know what we're getting into. And, and the follow through that, like, okay, so you want to do this, and, you know, we're committing to do this for the next couple of months. And that means going to practice and just kind of laying it all out there before, you know, officially signing on to take on this thing. And you know, beyond that, if you decide you don't ever want to do it again, that's totally fine. We can look at other things. But, you know, again, I think it comes down to just having those conversations upfront about the expectations. And, you know, it's another opportunity to look at, you know, look at the why, like, why do you want to do it, and also look at, you know, those opportunities for successes, you know, within whatever the activity they're doing.Hannah Choi 57:14Yeah, my kids, both my kids both play instruments. And so we deal with this a lot. They both been playing for a few years. And so it comes up a lot that they're just like, I don't want to practice. And something that something that is important to me is that it is okay for our kids to have discomfort. It is okay for them to to feel like, this doesn't feel good. And I don't want to do this. But I signed up, I made the commitment. So I have to do it. If we always protect our kids from those feelings, and then say, okay, you don't have to do it. I know you signed up for it. But now you don't have to do it. Because you don't want to. No, like, I think they need to follow through on the commitment that they made. And yeah, they're gonna feel some discomfort. But they're also, you know, like you said, the expectations were set up. So now they need to follow through. And there's so many lessons to be learned in that experience. Yeah, it feels awful. But hey, you're part of a team, or you made a commitment to your teacher or whatever, whatever that commitment is that you made. I do think it is a great opportunity to teach kids about learning about that.Amy McDuffie 58:31Absolutely. And about perseverance, too. So yeah,Vin Kachuik 58:35Yeah, that discomfort really like learning to sit with that discomfort, is what helps you switch your perspective, from have to, to get to, which is very important for keeping up with that consistency. Because if you think of it is just a burden or responsibility, like, I have to go to practice. Yeah, that may not be the fun part. The fun part, maybe the game, maybe you like the sense of competition, you'd like to, you know, high intense energy, or maybe you just like the performing part or playing around with your new instrument or whatever. Practice is hard, but it's what allows you getting to do that is what allows you to get to the fun parts as well. Hannah Choi 59:18Yeah, and be better at the fun part. Vin Kachuik 59:19Yes, it'd be better like it makes it more enjoyable. Hannah Choi 59:23Yeah. Yeah. My dad said to my daughter, he's a musician too. And he said, you know, what the, your motivation should be for practicing is so you don't feel like a jerk at rehearsal when you're the only person who can't keep up with the music. Practice so you feel confident at rehearsal. That's great. Yeah. One of my favorite quotes ever is by a psychologist called Susan David. And if you guys haven't looked into her stuff before, you got to read it, read her things. It's, she's amazing. And she has this quote that, ah, "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And I just love that. And so whenever I'm in a situation where I am feeling uncomfortable, I just remind myself like something good is gonna come out of this, you're going to learn from this, you're going to have some amazing experience or whatever. And it truly is. So, it's good for kids, too.Vin Kachuik 1:00:21of emotionally regulating that I can't stress the breathing enough and hold. Back to those references again. Like if you can't stand the discomfort, a there's either something wrong, you need to, you know, eat some food, drink some water, get some sleep, something like that. But like, if you all those needs are met, then just breathe. It makes it so much better. Just breathe few deep breaths.Amy McDuffie 1:00:45Yep, yep.Hannah Choi 1:00:48All right. Lessons for life. Just breathe, just breathe. Vin Kachuik 1:00:53It's literally a function of living. Hannah Choi 1:00:57Oh, my God, that was so funny when you said that last night. All right. Let's see. Here's, I think this is our last question. All right, my 19 year old son told me he's terrified about trying his hardest only to still fail. In the end. What are we just talking about? It breaks my heart. How do you address issues around motivation that are derived from fear of failure? Yeah. Perfect question to end with.Vin Kachuik 1:01:21Absolutely, yeah. That the way that you combat fear of failure is again, it's that "have to, not get to" that's where the fear of failure comes from. It's from the distance between where you feel you are and the expectations that are set above you. That's where things like shame and doubt just reign supreme, and can get the better of you. So a couple of things to do with that is seeing it less as the end result is the expectation and the doing is more the expectation, finding the value, and the joy in the doing the "Hey, I'm learning how to do this". Again, it comes back to starting small though, you know, do it with low stakes things, if it's a high stakes things thing, like a final paper or a big game or something like that, where it's all on the line. No, that's that's too much. It's very overwhelming. But I think giving like little like bits of like autonomy or responsibility to allow someone an opportunity to fail, and get comfortable failing, and learning from that failure in a low stakes environment. Things like, okay, so you know, you're going to be in charge at here's, here's a house plant, you now have a house plant, here's a living thing that's going to depend on you, here's some instructions for what it needs and how to take care of it. Don't let it try not to let it die, you know, kind of thing. And it's like, you know, find and take the opportunity to find joy and relaxation in doing that task. You know, given the opportunity, like here research, some some, you know, here's some resources on some plant blogs of people who have, you know, what they like to use and what they like to do. You know, I always one of my favorite things that I like learning about new clients is I always try and get at the heart of like, what do you geek? What's the thing that like you geek about and obsess over? Because finding that there's no fear of failure in that? Yeah, they love it too much to fear failure. And so I try and like bring that sense of, like, whether it's joy and or obsession, sometimes there's a fine line between those two things. I try and bring that into other tasks that we're focusing on and be like, how would you approach this? If it was, you know, this video game you love? Or you know, if it was this sport, you play? Or you know, this? I don't know. Kpop band that you're obsessed with? Right? Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and like, you know, because they don't, they don't have any sense of fear or worry over those things. Because they already feel like they're experts at it. Yeah. But it's because it's low stakes, nobody else has seen the expectations of them being perfect.Hannah Choi 1:04:12Yeah, that's great.Amy McDuffie 1:04:14Yeah, I mean, I think that's so important. And I, there's so much to be learned by failure. And I think, you know, like, as a parent, I feel like it's part of my job to to model for my kids that, you know, we all fail, you know, at times, you know, we all make mistakes. And, you know, it's like you said, it's not about, you know, the end result always it's the process of what you've learned along the way. And so I just do think it's really important to model that, you know, this is, you know, you know, it's part of life that that we run into, you know, struggles and, and failure at times. I remember when my kids were when my son was really young. I I read a book, I believe it was called The Gift of Failure. I can't remember the author's name. But it was really wonderful for me to read. And just to kind of look at failure from that perspective, because, you know, of course, we all want our kids to succeed and do well. But there is so much to be learned along the way with that struggle.Vin Kachuik 1:05:18The road to success is paved with bricks of failure, something something like that. Yeah.Hannah Choi 1:05:24Was it the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown?Amy McDuffie 1:05:27No, it was not Brene. Brown. Hannah Choi 1:05:29Okay. Yeah, that's a good one, too. Something that I, that I really find helpful with failure is getting away from that black and white thinking of either success or failure, and how there's, there are so many layers to it, and so many, you might ultimately have failed, but maybe there's some kind of like, win along the way.Vin Kachuik 1:05:51Like you said, Any modeling for people, I think that's an important thing to acknowledge, too. I know personally, like when I was growing up, big time perfectionist, I would collapse and crumble at even the slightest hint of failure or criticism, and it made it so hard to learn and grow. And the really, I think, something that I personally had to do a lot of work for, was accepting that sense of like vulnerability, that feeling of discomfort, that feeling of it's okay to not meet these expectations, it's okay to not be perfect. And the thing that comes with that is you can be so much happier there. It's hard cultivating a lot of that inner strength. And I'm getting a little bit into, like therapeutic mindfulness, kind of talk here. But it, it's, it's ultimately so much better. I think it is that. I think that's the crux of the, what is it? Failure is, the the, or Hannah Choi 1:06:53Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Vin Kachuik 1:06:57That's really what it

Okay, so today we're getting real. Recently, a coworker shared with me how her friend has long struggled with working as a nurse while also having ADHD. This friend was lucky enough to find a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her, but many are not as lucky. And although ADHD is commonplace in the healthcare space, its challenges are often stigmatized and swept under the rug - creating an epidemic of shame that can feel isolating and overwhelming. After all, imagine what it feels like to constantly help others when you yourself are struggling everyday? To help shed light on this subject, we reached out to an Executive Function coach of ours, Beth Malvino, who coaches two social workers, Lina and Cassie. Together, they bravely shared their stories about the difficulties they've faced in managing their own executive dysfunction while supporting others' mental wellbeing. Their stories are powerful and filled with important wisdom around the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and what can be done to overcome them. We explore self-care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live, and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening who has Executive function challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you'll hear on this episode. NOTE: There is some very light swearing in this episode. If you've got any young kids with you who happen to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on healthcare workers, you might want to give them a heads up.Finally, I also wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Send me your episode topic ideas! I'd love to hear from you.In the meantime, here are the show notes from today's episode: Tips For Nurses Managing Their Attention Deficit Disorder:https://blog.diversitynursing.com/blog/tips-for-nurses-managing-their-attention-deficit-disorderA Day in the Life of a Healthcare Professional with Executive Function Challenges:https://www.worksmartcoaching.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-healthcare-professional-with-executive-function-challenges8 Tips For How To Thrive As A Nurse With ADHD | NurseJournal:https://nursejournal.org/articles/how-to-thrive-as-a-nurse-with-adhd/ADHD - Workplace Issues:https://chadd.org/for-adults/workplace-issues/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Before I tell you about today's episode, I wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast at beyondbooksmart.com Send me your episode topic ideas. I'd love to hear from you. Hannah Choi 00:33Okay, so today we're getting real, not like we haven't been real in the past. Talking about EF challenges is very real. But we're getting extra real today. Recently, our podcast team was having a conversation about how having ADHD impacts people at work. And someone shared that a friend of theirs is a nurse who has ADHD. And she had finally found a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her ADHD and all. We wanted to explore the idea of holding a job where you're constantly giving, giving, giving, and often supporting people with EF challenges. While also managing your own EF challenges. We reached out to a coach of ours Beth Malvino, who works as a coach for two social workers, Lina and Cassie. They joined me and Beth to share their stories about the difficulties they face in managing their own executive dysfunction, while supporting others. They'll provide insights into the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and the work they do to overcome them. You'll hear Beth offer her valuable and rather touching perspective on Lina and Cassie's EF journeys. All three of them share the tools and strategies that Lina and Cassie have found helpful in supporting their executive function challenges. In addition, we explore self care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening today who has EF challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you'll hear today. Hannah Choi 02:29And just to note that there is some light swearing in this episode. If you've got any young kids with you who happened to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on health care workers, you might want to give them a heads up. Okay, now on to the show. Hannah Choi 02:46Hi, y'all. I learned that from Lina. Lina and Cassie and Beth are joining me today to talk about executive function challenges for people who work in healthcare spaces. And Lina is from originally from Texas. And so we were talking about y'all, so I thought I'd try that out today. So, would you guys, would you like to introduce yourselves? Lina, do you want to start? Lina 03:13Sure. Um, hi, I'm Lina. As Hannah said, I'm originally from Texas, but I currently live in Chicago. I work in social work on getting my master's in social work with the concentration in mental health. But I have some background in public administration and policy work, particularly within criminal justice spaces, or like to say the criminal system of injustice just because that's what we have right now. And it's, uh, you know, I work within the realm of mental health and people who've been impacted by that system. So yeah, it's really great to be here with all of you. I'm excited to chat.Hannah Choi 04:01Thank you, and Cassie.Cassie 04:05Hello. My name is Cassie. I am a school social worker slash guidance guidance adjustment counselor. And I don't work at a typical school. I work at a therapeutic day school. So my kiddos have they range our youngest right now is seven. Our oldest is 20. And they range from all kinds of mental health diagnoses trauma backgrounds, emotional behavioral disabilities. So it's funny thinking about kind of our our topic of today is you know, having EF concerns while working in in healthcare but it's like I have EF concerns and I'm surrounded by children who also are very dysfunctional when it comes to EF and also kind of in general. Um, so that was kind of funny to think about that that juxtaposition. Hannah Choi 05:04So yeah, and I really want to get into that today because that is you two are not the only people out there who work in that work and also have executive function challenges. So I'm sure that there are other people who will hear this conversation and be really be able to resonate with or relate to relate with what you have to say. And last, we have Beth, who is, well, Beth, you explain how you know Lina and Cassie, and what your role is in, in the world? Beth Malvino 05:40Sure, sure. So hi, I'm Beth. I've been a licensed clinical social worker for more than 20 years, I have worked in lots of different healthcare settings, mostly hospitals, with different populations of people. I've been in psychiatry, medicine, hospice oncology, I had my own private practice for a while, I ran virtual support groups for grief and divorce during the pandemic. And now I am an executive function coach at Beyond BookSmart. I currently work with Lina and Cassie, they've been my clients for some time now. And so I'm really going to enjoy talking to them today, because they've had such an amazing journey. So I'm looking forward to sharing that and hearing their perspectives from that.Hannah Choi 06:32Yeah, great. I can't wait to hear this too. And Lina, and Cassie, why did you seek out executive function coaching?Lina 06:43Yeah, so I sought out executive function coaching, because I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in 2021. So it was like a year after the pandemic had started. And I didn't start coaching until last year 2022, like I had waited a while. Just because you know, when you're an adult, and you get diagnosed with something that you've had your whole life and things didn't make sense. And you finally got that, I like to think of it as like the lens that you can see through your life and look at all the pieces that didn't fit together. And now you have this lens of information, that you could see more clearly, all of the challenges and triumphs and really weird stuff in your life. It, you know, it can take a while to kind of like, figure out what you need and unmask yourself. And so I started coaching last year, because I really, you know, I read all the books about ADHD and what it's like, but to put things into practice is what really was hard for me identifying how my brain worked and trying out different things, I didn't even know where to start to do that. And so that's why I sought out coaching just because, you know, putting, like, you can rationally in your head know, all these things, you know, read all the books, but it's a whole other thing to put what you've learned into practice. And that's why I sought out coaching. And it's, you know, greatly improved my mental health to even though it's not a mental health service. You know, it's, you know, just being able to put things in practice and learn more and get more information has improved my anxiety a lot just because I know I have different tools and different strategies than I did before. And so yeah, it's it's worked in conjunction with therapy already. That has improved a lot of things in my life and has helped make my work. You know, both in and out of school and in and out of social work a lot better for me.Cassie 09:10So I went, I think I think we started in winter, like December 2021. I think, recently, I'm like, Oh, well, I have a different insurance. Like, let's see if there is a psychiatrist nearby that can like assess me and like, take over my meds and whatnot. So I'm actually hopefully going to be starting that soon. Which would be great. Because there's a number of things, not just the attention and focus and whatnot. But there's other things that I'm like, Oh, I think I want somebody who knows stuff about this to help me figure things out. And that's kind of the same thinking that got me here as well. I sought out coaching because I was miserable. I was As I felt like I was drowning in work. And I couldn't kind of wrap my head around it because I have always been a smart kid, I've never had to work too hard at school. And even like college was mostly fine grad school was mostly fine. But when I started my first big girl salary job with my MSW, I couldn't manage it. Like I knew how to do the tasks that I was supposed to do. That's, that wasn't the issue, the issue was actually just getting them done, starting them and finishing them. So I was always behind on things, I was staying really late at work. I had already gone to my supervisor who is amazing. And she, you know, had given me some suggestions for what works for her and, you know, tried to get me a new planner, and we're like, move my schedule around to see if that helped. And so it's probably been a good more than six months that I'd been like, really aware of the fact that I was just very unhappy at work. And then I finally was like, a kind of, I had to bite the bullet because again, like, I'm used to just coasting through things. I'm used to just being successful with not a lot of effort. And to be like, Okay, no, like, I need help. I'm struggling really, really bad. It got to the point where I was like waking up in the morning and hoping that I would get a text message that say that there was an actual gas leak on campus. And so I didn't have to go in like, because I worked at a residential campus. And so there were no, like, there were no days off. Like it was Monday through Friday, no matter what, no matter if there was a blizzard, no matter if it was a national holiday, like we, we went in. So yeah, so I was I was very, very unhappy and was like, alright, like, it's not, it's not a matter of not knowing how to do it. It's just actually getting my work done. It's not not not knowing how to do it, it's being able to make it happen. So that's why Yeah, and Lina, you said that it's not a it's not a mental health service. But like, honestly, right now, I feel like I have three different therapists in some way, because I have my actual individual therapist that I speak with, like once or twice a month. And then I have my supervisor at work, who is amazing, and supportive and wonderful. And then I also have Beth, and it's like, it's Yeah, I feel like having all of these supports in my quarter has been like, really, really helpful. Lina 12:36So yeah, I, I want to affirm that, like, I know, you know, they're supposed to be different difference between coaching and therapy. But there have been several times where Beth and I and I'm sure it's the same way for you Cassie word, the coaching session does kind of turn intoCassie 12:54Oh, yeah. Therapy. For five sessions, I was just like, crying to her. Like, I don't know why I do this. I'm Yeah. This is hard to like, why is it so hard to just type words into my computer,Lina 13:12Or even like, when the big feelings show up, because you have some big feelings about something and you're just crying about it, you're just like, I don't know how to emotionally regulate.Hannah Choi 13:22It shows you how closely connected our emotions are with our executive functions, and how it is you cannot separate them. And, and so it's really great that you're that you're working with a therapist as well, because then you're able to take things that you learn in each and, and bring them together. And it was also recommend that to my clients, who aren't seeing therapists already.Cassie 13:50It was also really important to me as I was in the process of like, signing up that like, you know, I am, I am a, an MSW, I, you know, I have my license, I like I want to work with somebody who has similar training, because like, I feel like, you know, I kind of like I've seen behind the curtain, like, I know, like, you know, I'm aware of the different theories and whatever and, and, like, I wanted to work with somebody else who also had that same background.Beth Malvino 14:23I have to say that, I think, and I was thinking about this last night when I was sort of preparing for this podcast today, you know, what, what has been really important in in the coaching relationship with with both of you, and I think there's been an element of relatability that I maybe didn't realize how important that was until we all started working together. Because I'm a social worker. I mean, there's there's that capacity to understand even though we We've all done different things like I've never done any of the types of roles that you both are in. But yet I can still empathize because I know what it's like to have to chart, you know, 50 notes in a week and have to, you know, feel to feel like there's 1000 emails that haven't been responded to, and just the whole concept of giving so much of yourself, because that's what we do, you know, we're helpers, we're healers, and feeling as if there's just nothing left, at the end of the day. And when you throw in things like executive font dysfunction and time distortion on top of that, it's just I can only imagine how difficult that must be. Because I know that I have felt that way, in lots of work settings, and I don't have executive dysfunction. And so I can only imagine how difficult that must have been. So I think there's definitely the the idea of being empathetic to that I think, has really helped us to bond as coach and client. And that's been an important part of the process.Hannah Choi 16:12Can we explore that a little, the idea of what you just said about how you have to give yourself all day to people who really, really, really need you. And also, you're giving yourself as a person who is struggling with executive function. And you're likely supporting someone who is also struggling with exec executive function. So how do you like what does that look like? For you? What is? What is? Is that a struggle? And when what does it look like?Cassie 16:47For me, it looks like being transparent, to some degree with my students, there have been so many times where, because in my role, I go into our classrooms, and I lead like group counseling. So we right now we're working on the zones of regulation. But what it looks like, sometimes for me is, like, kind of being explicit, and like, oh, like, that's a really good question, kiddo. But like, I you note, you know, that I want to hang out and chat with you about anything under the sun, but like, right now, I need to focus on finishing this lesson. Or like a kiddo will ask them like, Hey, Miss, can you know, can you come check in with me later? Or can we work on this thing? And like just being very explicit, like, Yes, I will try to remember or I will write it down. But like, like, just kind of like being honest about like, I this is important, and I want to do it, but like, if an emergency comes up, or if whatever, you know, it may not happen, and asking the kids like, hey, help me remember that next time we have group I want to do XYZ? Or, if you see me in the hallway, ask me about this, and then I can let you know when I find out the answer. So it's kind of in some ways, it's it's being honest, and kind of modeling for the kids. And then and then it's also working with my colleagues. Kind of in a more intentional way, also, one of the big benefits that I've noticed and started coaching is just the change in my kind of thinking patterns or my habits. Right now, I am very lucky that I have an awesome clinical intern who is working on her MSW as well. And so oftentimes, what we'll do is, she'll get there in the morning, and I'll be you know, answering emails or whatever. And we'll kind of sit down and like have like a kind of a planning session. We're like, Alright, so today for group, we're going to work on this thing. I don't think Anthony class has finished their worksheet, so we'll finish that up for them. But Dubois class, they didn't finish. So we're gonna move on to this one, we were kind of just like, make a plan for the day. And then we also were like, Alright, so after groups, like what's our priority, like, we really need to finish this assessment, we really need to finish planning for the next two groups. Like it's been really helpful for me to have that conversation with somebody else. until like, right, these are our priorities for the day. That's been something that's been really helpful for me because it's, you know, I can have that conversation with myself in my head, but it's just it there's no external accountability, which was another thing that I really gained benefit from. So it's, what it looks like is modeling it for the kids and then practicing myself, even when I'm not with the kids.Hannah Choi 19:42That's awesome. And then building in the accountability of having a partner and advocating for yourself that you need that partner and that you you know this like that. building that relationship with her I'm sure is invaluable for both of you. Yeah, what about you, Lina?Lina 20:00Um, so there's a few components for how I deal with it in my work. So right now I am working in substance use just to give some background, I work with adults in the west side of Chicago, who, you know, for various reasons, have used substances to cope with their life and their realities and their pain. And, you know, when I work with a bunch of people like this, especially people who are, you know, mandated to treatment by the justice system, or the criminal system of injustice, system, I, you know, struggle a lot with and just not even that, you know, I don't know how many people are aware of how recovery spaces are, but they're pretty rigid, you know, if you're in recovery homes, there's very, like I work with a lot of patients who are in recovery homes, and the rigidity of certain recovery homes just gives no flexibility for a client to have autonomy in their life and in their treatment, and in their program. And I take a harm reduction approach, where, you know, we look at recovery, and look at how do we manage reducing unnecessary harm without trying to eradicate the issue? Right? Because we know it's going to exist, we know it's going to, you know, it has existed for centuries, you know, people have been using substances for centuries, but how do we reduce unnecessary harm that can come from doing that. And what that also means is defining recovery, and however, the individual defines it, right. And sometimes, if a person comes in with a very rigid idea of what recovery can be, and trying to fit themselves into a box, that doesn't necessarily work for them. I resonate with that, because I tried to do that, my whole life, right, with having undiagnosed ADHD, I was just coping all the time and trying to fit myself into boxes that didn't necessarily fit for me, but I was working so hard. And so yeah, I was just working so hard for so long, in spaces that were never meant to fit me. Right. And so a lot of what I've done with clients, and with patients is just like a lot of validation of being like, yeah, this it's hard. There's no rulebook to how life could be. But we have all these expectations within these systems that we're in to meet, unfortunately, and I'm a very systems based person, I always have been, because I've always noticed, that's like one of my ADHD superpowers, I would say is, I've always noticed how systems really suck. And they don't allow people to have choice and autonomy, to do things that is actually better for them, you know what I mean? And so that's how I see it a lot with my clients and with my patients. And even for me, I have to, you know, I'm still in graduate school, I have all these expectations to meet for school, I have all these expectations to meet within my clinical internship, which is doing the substance use work. And one of the things that Beth and I did was, we broke down all the things that I had to do, like we literally wrote it out, being like, you have to do, CSRS T PRs, individual sessions, group therapy sessions, individual notes, group notes, case management, notes, housing notes, all these things. And when you really break it down, it's like, all these expectations, and for what, right? And for what, it's just so exhausting. And so I, you know, I even started doing that with my patients being like, alright, let's look at your recovery program and being like, look at all these expectations, and you're exhausted, like, there are hard things that add to your life, and there's hard things that don't. And then there's hard things that are a little bit of both, and how do we recognize those things that do add to our life? And try to minimize the things that don't and start making things that work better for you. So it's, yeah, I do it, you know, a lot of validation at my work and my job, especially with the clients who were within the criminal system of injustice, because those expectations are just out of pocket. I'm just like, Why does this have to exist this way, especially for this person that already has so many different systems working against them. And in a lot of ways, we as people with executive functioning challenges, work within systems that are working against us too. And that's really challenging and really hard. Yeah.Hannah Choi 24:56And something that I do I just this talk about systems is so interesting because as a person who has executive function challenges, I mean, all people need to build systems for themselves that they can rely on. And when you are a person with executive function challenges, your system is probably going to look really different, and not fit in well, to the existing systems that are already there, which I think is pretty much what you were just saying Lina. And, and it's, I don't know, it's just interesting that, that, that systems can be critical for success. And they can be really limiting when there is no flexibility. And there's no consideration for the variety of needs, that that people have. And that's what's so beautiful about taking the time and, and, and taking the time. That's what's so beautiful about discovering the aspects of yourselves that are strong, and that you can rely on, and how you can use those to support the areas that are that are more challenging for you, and how you're taking, taking the time to really think about it and to really say like, what do I need? And how can I create that for myself. And when you are spending your whole day, supporting other people and giving and giving and giving and giving? It's probably pretty difficult to stop and just really wait, why do I need? And how do I support myself in this time? So do you what do you do for yourself to recover from a really difficult day or manage executive function? I mean, other than, like what you shared already, like is there maybe self care that you do to, you know, to alleviate some of that pressure that I'm sure that you feel, trying to fit into these systems that that are there.Cassie 27:15Something that I have been doing, that my whole family has been doing, ever since the pandemic started. My, my mom, my dad, and my older sister, and I, just the four of us in my immediate nuclear family. We have weekly family video calls. And that actually evolved from way back when the pandemic very first started, my sister reached out to us and was like, I'm really worried about the state of the world can we just do a video call just to check in with each other. And then we really enjoyed it. So we did again, the next night, and the next night, and the next night. So we we I talked to my parents and my sister every single day for, I don't know, four or five months of the pandemic. And then, you know, once I finished grad school, and once I moved out here for my first big girl salary job, we did cut it down to twice a week. And now we're down to once a week. But because we had that kind of foundation of updating each other on every part of our days, because we talked every single day, we just have a much, I think a much stronger relationship and much more open and comfortable relationship just has a whole family unit. And so we talk about a lot of things like we are much more open about our mental health, about our needs. You know, sometimes my sister will talk about how she, you know, I'm feeling really down today, like my depression is pretty bad. Or, you know, we'll joke with mom about how like mom, like, you have undiagnosed ADHD, even though it's sometimes in a joking way, we're much more open about our own struggles and mental health needs and everything. And I think that's been instrumental. For me, I think it's been really, really helpful, just personally, but I also think that it's improved all of our lives just to have that regular communication and that comfort. So for me, family is a really big part of my self care. I know that that's not the case for everyone. For other for some people, like family creates stress, and that's totally valid. But for me, family time has been a really big part of my self care.Hannah Choi 29:33And hopefully for people that sort of their chosen family can step in, and Lina What about you? What do you do to take care of yourself?29:40Man, we're trying to figure that out to be honest. One of the things that my ADHD loves to do is not let me recognize certain bodily cues like eating because I get so hyper focused during the day am my work that I forget to eat, I legitimately don't get those cues to eat. And then it isn't until like three, maybe sometimes two o'clock to three in the afternoon and I'm like, why can't I focus? Oh, you haven't eaten since seven this morning. Like, like I like, it's those things that, you know, really begin to challenge. So lately, self care has been trying to eat more. And just trying to, you know, find certain foods or certain things that I will eat during the day or have access to or that is easier to manage and sort of time myself. That's been hounding me to set an alarm for lunch. And so yeah, like, that's sort of what comes to mind immediately. But, you know, I think for me, too, lately, I've been recognizing how I can't just push through certain tedious tasks anymore. Like I have to, like, in order for me to do the really hard thing that my brain really don't want to do, I got to do something fun before I do it, you know, so I gotta like, read a chapter of the book that I'm reading, or watch a stupid YouTube video or, you know, do something that I actually like doing before I get into this thing, or use the thing that I really like doing as the reward for doing the really hard thing. So I been trying to give myself space to have more fun. And to have more rest and play, and silliness and laughter and being with people that, you know, make me laugh and understand my humor, because as social workers, we got to very wild spectrums of humor. When you're with people who get that humor, it is the best, it's like wild, you would think work notes or need to go be hospitalized or something. But it's like really a good time being with the people that get it and understand the type of work that we're dealing with all day, every day, because it gets really hard. Like, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that our jobs are easy, because they're not. And it's very, you know, we're in a profession that is severely undervalued. So we have to be very intentional about taking care of ourselves to deal with said systems. And I'm trying to be a lot better about that I will work working on it. It's always a work in progress, but it's a lot better than what it used to be.Hannah Choi 32:49So we're all work in progress, it works in progress. I just, I just had a wonderful experience. On the other night, I got to go to a presentation by a clinical psychologists called Dr. Allison Roy, and she's out in New Hampshire. And she she works she works in with from a perspective of trauma informed care. And she did a presentation on the brain which I'm a total nerd about so I was just like on the edge of my seat the whole night. And she talked about about how we can get out of our the fear center part of our brain like the you know, like the the fight and flight and freeze part and up into our prefrontal cortex where all of our executive function skills are so our thinking brain so we can use that. And she was talking about how this idea of flocking and how flocking is when you you have a flock you have you spend time with people who get you who understand you, you have social connection and and when you do that you're able to nourish the and support your limbic system the emotional part of your brain which really allows you to access your your prefrontal cortex and your thinking part. And she was just talking about there is so much value in finding a flock and so whatever your flock is, like you said, Cassie, your family is your flock and you get so much value from that and Lina, your you know, your fellow social workers who really get you and get where you're coming from. And so I'm just so glad to hear that you both put that in as an value that as part of your self care because according to the brain research, it's really what you do need to do so. And the other thing that she talked about Lina and I'm so glad you mentioned this was the idea of play. And she said it is so important. Why do we stop playing why do we stop having fun and, and and play is a huge component of As our mental health and of just feeling better about ourselves and, and enjoying our lives, and in staying out of that, like the the kind of like, primal part of our brain, and we're able to stay up higher in the in the thinking part. And so it's just glad to hear that you're too you're doing that too.Beth Malvino 35:22I wanted to just piggyback on what what you just said, because it really resonated with me that, you know, we get so what, regardless of whether or not you have any kind of diagnosable executive function challenges, I think we all get bogged down with things that we think we have to plan, you know, we have work and or, you know, parenting responsibilities or things that we have to do in life that we feel like we have to plan these things. And I think for a lot of us, we forget to plan fun. And sort of bringing that to the to the conscious and really, scheduling fun, I think is so important. And I talk about that a lot with with clients, because I find that they get very wrapped up as we all do and the things that they have to do, and not necessarily the things that they like to do.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, and I just I did that a few years ago to it all started where I, my sister in law wanted to go in the water and it was so cold. And I was like I don't want to go in the water is too cold. And she's like, come on just fun. Like, yeah, I need to have more fun. So I decided to try to be a lot more intentional about that. And I and I have noticed a big difference. My kids think I'm crazy. But grownups should not be having that much fun. But I think it really helps. That's a big part of my self care.36:57So I I mean, Lina and I talked about our self care. But I want to hear about from from you and Beth as well.Hannah Choi 37:05That's you want to go first? Oh, wow.Beth Malvino 37:08Self. Yeah, I mean, self care, is something that does have to be intentional for me, I have to remember to do it. Because just, you know, like everyone else, I have things that I have to do. And I try to get those things done. And there are days that go by where I haven't done any self like true self care. And I kind of get mad at myself, like, why didn't I you know, take a moment. And so I do try to be more intentional about the kind of self care that I do. So, recently, we took a trip to Florida, and that we were in Orlando, and they have these electric scooters that you can just kind of, you know, zip around town on and I've never done anything like that. And my kids who are you know, they're teenagers. And so there used to scootering around on different types of machinery. They were all just like jumping on and whizzing down the block. And I was almost like, oh, that I can't do that. Like that's not for me. That's that's not like, that's not okay, why why would I do that I'm not a kid. And then I kind of, I kind of forced myself to do it. The best? Yeah, I had the wind in my hair. And I was flying down the sidewalk and like ringing the bell. And people were stuck on the side. And I felt like a kid again. And that was a very intentional choice that I made to do that. And I'm glad I did it. Now I have those memories too. And now maybe I'm more likely to try that again in a different settings. So I really do try to try to make it an intent, like an intentional decision. Like today, I'm going to do something it doesn't even have to be big enough to be going to a spa like I'm not going to do. But it might be it's a really beautiful day. I'm going for a walk today. I'm just going to make sure that I get some sunshine in today. And I do try to make that intentional kind of schedule that around the other things that I had to plan for that day.Hannah Choi 39:30Yeah, that what I do for myself, though, sort of like main Self Care Act is similar in that I, I practice the strategies that I that I know work for me when I'm in a moment where I'm really having a hard time. So like I have some anxiety so I I make myself practice breathing when I'm not in an anxious state. So that when I am in that state, it's much easier for me to access that and I also Have, I'm working really hard on my negative self talk and, and so I try very hard to talk positively to myself when I'm just doing regular stuff. Like, like celebrating these like super small wins, it doesn't have to be anything big, but just practicing that, that more supportive talk to myself really helps so that when I have made a decision that I'm not happy with or something happens, that didn't go as I expected, it does come a little bit more easily to me to say something nice to myself instead of saying something mean. So that's the practice of it when I don't need it is is a huge thing for me. And then also, spending time with other people is absolutely number like probably like other than the practice, that's the most important thing for me. And exercise to I need to exercise if I don't exercise I always like why do I feel like crap this week? Oh, because I did not prioritize that. So yeah. Thank you for asking Cassie. It's a it's a it's a conversation that more people should have. Because in, I think because in having those conversations, you can really learn a lot from what other people do for their self care. And it doesn't always look like going and getting a massage. Like if I go get a massage, I feel guilty that I went and got a massage. And so now I don't feel good at all. It's yeah, it doesn't always look like bubble baths or whatever. So yeah.41:27Yeah, like I just wanted to piggyback off of that is just like, lately, I've been trying to intentionally remember that I can do things because I can like, and not because I have to justify it. Like, that's been really, you know, I've always felt like I've had to justify everything I do, like justify a feeling or justify needing to do this or just doing that. And I'm just like, No, I can go get an ice cream cake. Because I can I'm an adult, I could make that decision if I wanted to. Like if I want to, and I don't need to justify it, if I want a massage, I don't need to justify getting a massage. If I want to do this, I don't have to, I could do it because I can and not because I have to justify it. So I've been trying really hard to do that more often. And like, you know, if I want to make a nice meal for myself, I can do that and not feel like oh, you have to do it. Because you have to have a reason like, No, I don't have to have a reason all the time to do the thing I want to doHannah Choi 42:31just giving yourself permission to just do it.Beth Malvino 42:35Because you deserve it. Yeah. And that's part of42:40that's another hard part to get your wrap your head around. Because, you know, when you're diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, you know, you were invalidated a lot as a child for things that, you know, you needed. But, you know, by, you know, oh, you're just too sensitive, or Oh, you're just too much or, or you're just this or just that and like, you know, going through this process of like, No, you do deserve good things you do deserve the things you need to play, it gets okay to have your needs met. That's, that's been a big part of this whole journey, I would say,Beth Malvino 43:17Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think when you're diagnosed, as an adult, it kind of brings another layer of challenges. Because you have, you have to fight some negative narratives. And Hannah, you were just talking about, you know, the negative talk that goes through your head, you have to fight that, you know, sometimes you have to fight years of that, whether it was heard, you know, from other people, or whether it's things that you're saying to yourself. That's, that's really hard, it's hard to change habits, when what's going on in your head is still, you know, that negative loop of I can't or I'm not good enough, or I don't deserve or I'm broken. And so, you know, we talked about coaching versus therapy, sometimes there is that overlap of you know, how do I how do I get past? How do I change that negative loop in my head so that I can, you know, work with the brain that I have and Cassie we weave cast came up with one of the best I don't know if it's a metaphor, or just the best Phrases She came up with one of one of the best phrases and I still use it today with with all my clients is your, you know, part of coaching is rewriting the manual for your brain. And that act just really spoke to me when when she said that and I i still repeat it all the time because it's so true. It's not about fixing what's wrong. It's about working with But you have Yes. And so I think that, you know, it takes an awful lot of courage to ask for help. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I really give a lot of credit to both Lina and Cassie for reaching out, because it's not easy. And we're, you know, they're both extremely emotionally intelligent women who, you know who work in the field, I think it's, I think that in some ways makes it harder, you know, people in social work, and maybe even in healthcare in general, we're there to help other people, and we're good at it, and maybe not so good at kind of looking back at ourselves or looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying, Well, what do I need help with. So I just want to acknowledge that it really takes an awful lot of courage to do what they've done, and to be on this journey, and to have to have been open to this journey, which both of them really are.Lina 46:07Yeah, I want to say something, too you know, because within the realm of, I don't know how many people know how the intricacies of healthcare works. But, you know, there's this thing called evidence-based practice. And sometimes evidence-based practice can be at odds with us people with executive functioning challenges, because a lot of times the evidence that they're basing their stuff off of doesn't include people like us in the research. So I have a hard time navigating, especially in mental health spaces, that rely on evidence based practices. But we're working with populations that were never included in the research for, you know, and I, as a person with ADHD, and you have challenges working with a lot of people with ADHD and you have challenges that have either gone overlooked, undiagnosed or invalidated. I'm struggle a lot, by even my own peers within the social work and mental health field, because not only do we have to navigate the challenges of working with our patients, but we also have to navigate the challenges of working with peers that don't see that. And just because our approach is different, doesn't mean that it's wrong. And just because it's, yeah, and just because it's, you know, you may not understand it doesn't mean that we are wrong in approaching our work differently in that way. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of complexities with that,Hannah Choi 47:55and you're doing all of that navigating, while managing your executive function challenges. You're not doing that in this vacuum, where you know, where you're just like, skipping around, remembering everything, and not finding anything stressful. So it's, it's a lot, and I commend you, all, all three of you for you know, the work that you've done and continue to do. And it's, it's, I'm just so glad that you are here today and talking about this. And, and, and I really hope that lots of people hear this and are able to really relate and hopefully feel validated, that validation is huge. And it's, it's, it's a right, Lina, I can imagine that maybe if you if someone validated your perspective, and validated where you're coming from, it would probably feel a lot better than Lina 48:57I probably would have gotten diagnosed as a kid instead of an adult. You know, yeah, I probably would have been heard. You know. So there's, you know, there's a lot of challenges and complexities within that. And I don't want to sound like a Negative Nelly, because I do think evidence based practices has its times in place, but, you know, that's where the creativity of meeting patients and clients where they're at, and truly validating their experiences in their life and having that relational approach rather than just purely scientific, purely medical, purely. Whatever bullshit they like to throw up.Hannah Choi 49:48The systems that that exist, exist, partially because there's not enough funding, and there's not enough people and there's not enough attention. There's not enough support. There's not had enough research, there's not enough validation of the troubles that there are out there. And so it is difficult to provide individual support when you are not supported yourself byLina 50:13Oh, yeah. And that's, Hannah Choi 50:15I know we could talk about that for days. Lina 50:17Yeah, as a systems based person, you know, we have the resources to do those things, we just choose as a system not to do it. You know, and that's, you know, I know, I say, I'm in social work, but my first master's was in public administration, and, you know, we have a bunch of the resources to do it, it's just we, politically and power wise choose not to, and that's really, and we're working within that system all the time. I'm sure Cassie see's just how, you know, funding schools and funding children's programs affects her and her job and what she's limited and doing. And I know, I struggle a lot with I work with a lot of people who are on Medicaid, you know, like, it's, and that's, that's severely limiting to what they need, and they have a lot of my needs. So it's, you know, it's a system thing too, and we have to constantly navigate those complexities.Hannah Choi 51:13Yeah, that's a lot. And the people that you work with, I'm sure are so grateful that you have made the choice in your life to do the work that you're doing. And, and that you I'm sure your your work has been so positively impacted by that effort that you have put in, to reach out for help for yourself, and to do the work that you've been doing and will continue to do to support yourself, which just improves the support that you're able to give the people that you work with. So let's explore that a bit. I would love to hear from you, Beth, about your experience working with Cassie and Lina,Beth Malvino 51:53I feel so honored to have been part of Cassie and Lina's journey journeys. And just to me, they're they're huge executive function success stories. They blow me away with how they manage and navigate their lives, their work. And I wanted them to shine. And so I'm glad that I'm here to kind of hear to hear them talk about these things. Because it also validates the fact that they they've done so much work. I mean, I love talking about people's journey, especially when they when they come to the end. And this is by no means the end of a journey, not like they're still on the journey. But just having beared witness to it has been really, really wonderful for me, and I I just, I'm so glad that I could be here to, to hear them to, you know, to talk about it. And I don't know if it's okay with them, I'd love to share some of the things that I've seen just in terms of their coaching journey. Oh my goodness, I mean when I first started working with Cassie, I'll just start there. She She was really struggling, she was emotionally spent. She doesn't didn't understand why she why she was leaving late every day she couldn't plan or prioritize. I think structuring her unstructured time was one of the biggest hurdles she she was experiencing there was a lot of procrastinationCassie 53:57My own brain would distract me, I'd be in the middle of a task of like, oh, I wanted to do this other thing. And then I would do that other thing, and then not finish the original task.Beth Malvino 54:06So there was a lot of that going on. Transitions were also really hard and just getting distracted, doing one thing and being distracted by another. Even just simple things. And you know, this goes back to what Lina was saying about remembering to eat lunch, just basic needs, sleep, food, hygiene, you know, those kinds of things. I think sometimes people forget that without that your executive functioning kind of falls apart. And so you have to kind of go back to basics and say, you know, what do I need right now Why am I feeling this way? Could it be because you haven't had lunch or you didn't sleep well or you stayed up on your phone till three in the morning? Just Doom scrolling, you know, is there. There's there are reasons that these things happen. So It just in terms of Cassie's journey, you know, I've watched I watched her go from sort of this almost despondent person who was really not happy in her role in her life and felt just things were very much out of her control. And then she kind of shifted, she changed jobs. And that shift made a huge difference for her in everything, her demeanor her affect her mood, I mean, it was such a big change, because I saw her finally doing something that she really truly loved. And from that came so many other amazing changes for her. She she was, for a while she had been using a thought collector, you remember the thought collector. So the thought collector was like a is basically a notebook and just a sort of list, a running list of things that she had to write stream of consciousCassie 56:09or even consciousness, it could because like I said, when I would be like, Alright, I need to write this note, I need to summarize a 45 minute individual therapy session, go. But then as I was having like, oh, yeah, my kiddo asked me to reach out to her mom, or my, you know, I have to send this email. And so in the middle of this hard job that I didn't want to do, I would remember a quicker, easier job. And then I was like, Oh, let me just do that real quick. And then I would get distracted by looking for a worksheet related to this topic. And then I would get, so my thought collector was kind of like a brain dump of like, okay, I know, this is important. I don't want to forget it. I'm gonna write it down. And then I'm gonna keep doing I don't want to do.Hannah Choi 56:45Yeah, that's great.Beth Malvino 56:47And a lot of that. I remember even during the early sessions that we had, it was kind of almost reactive, you would look at the thought collector and say, Okay, what, what have I not done, that I should have done this week. And let me get that done first. And so it was very sort of reactive in that in nature. Like, let me let me finish what I haven't done that needs to get done. And then after a while, things kind of shifted where you were, you could take a more proactive stance, and begin to plan ahead and begin to prioritize. So instead of looking back at what you hadn't done, you were able to look forward and look at the thought collector and say, What do I need to do? Going forward? What do I need to do this week? That was a big shift, the way you document and your notes even changed. And it was not a big change. But there was something that you had tweaked, that made it easier to document for yourself. It was the way that you were copying and pasting. Yes, some of your notes and just a small change, like that made a huge difference. Yes.Cassie 57:53Micro optimization. Yes.Hannah Choi 57:56Yeah. And I think that people don't recognize the, the, how that huge, that tiny, tiny, tiny little change can have such a huge impact. It's like, have you guys read Atomic Habits by James clear, he talks a lot about how like, if you just make like 1%, like a boat, if there's a ship, and it's going in this one direction, it makes a 1% change turn or one degree turn, I mean, then it's actually going to end up in like a really huge, different place. But if you never make that change, you'll just keep on going straight. And so that giving value to those small changes that can make a really big difference.Beth Malvino 58:34Absolutely. Yeah, I think just I've also just been really amazed at Cassie's ability, ability to self-regulate, when she because she works with a population that is really not regulated. And so I asked her all the time, I mean, she gets physically assaulted at work. And then she'll come to session and be like, oh, you know, I got hit today. And it's kind of like, just, it's almost like it's not, it doesn't affect her or she doesn't take it in. And she's still able to, to cope and do the things that she wants to do that day, and it doesn't get under her skin. And I've always been amazed by that. Because self regulation is one of the hardest executive function skills to master and especially if you're working with people who are not, not regulated, that can be a really big challenge. So she just has that amazing ability to do that.Hannah Choi 59:38That's great. So tell me all about LinaBeth Malvino 59:40and Lina, Oh my gosh. We, Lina says she's a verbal processor. I struggle because our sessions typically go way over and I did and I'm complete Part of that because, you know, I'm because I love talking to her. And because we end up talking about things that you know, are so relatable. And so it's not uncommon for us to go over our time limit. You know, I think, Lina we have, we have spent a lot of time talking about the inner narrative. Lina, I think I said this before that, you know, she was diagnosed as an adult. And so she, she brought with her some of those negative inner loops that tend to go through your head. And so we do spend a lot of time on that, which does bring a therapeutic component to coaching, but we're always able to relate it back to executive functioning. And so, but that that's all part of it, you know, we only have one brain, right, and the the toll that executive dysfunction takes on a person emotionally, has to be acknowledged, it can't be compartmentalized, you can't just talk about my challenges with EF skills, and also talk about the fact that I'm anxious, depressed and sad, they go together. And so there's a lot of overlap. And so we do talk about that a lot. And one of the things that I think she mentioned it, you know, remembering to eat, for example, it's just a basic need, right? We, I think a lot of us just take it for granted, like, Okay, you could skip lunch and feel fine. But when you have executive function, challenges, skipping lunch, could mean not functioning at all later in the day, and maybe not realizing how much of an impact that that has on you. So we do talk about that a lot. And remembering to put those things into her like scheduling fun, like, I need her to schedule lunch. I tell her, it's as important as breathing as if think of it as you know, medication, or insulin or something that you need. It's not just a nice thing to have, like you're not optional, to fulfill yourself and replenish yourself. So we talk about that a lot. And I'm also blown away by Lina 's ability to self-regulate, because she's working with some people who are seriously traumatized, and have, you know, dual diagnosis and a lot, a lot of stuff going on in their lives. And I'm in all of the fact that she is able to give so much of herself. To them, despite having challenges with with some of those same things like self regulation is is very hard, you know, big feelings are hard to navigate. And as a social worker, it's so much easier to navigate that with other people. Yeah. But not with yourself. And so it's, it's what it's a balance. And so we talk about that a lot, just being mindful of how she's feeling. Because it's very easy to distract yourself with how somebody else is feeling. One of the things that Lina has done in coaching, which is just incredible is she has utilized workspace sessions in a very unique way. And for those of you don't know workspace is one of the it's it's kind of, it's a website that Beyond BookSmart runs, where if you have something to do, and it doesn't matter what it is you sign up for a session and you have a person there, who is there to help pull you through it and to monitor how things are going and to be your cheerleader. And to give you some tips. And it sounds kind of simplistic, but it really does work. Having that external accountability of having another person there is very helpful. And so one of the things that Lina has done and I've talked to other clients about this because it's worked so well for her is she was able to literally master task initiate by scheduling sessions very carefully during her week. So on Sunday, she would use a workspace session to tackle chores or get all her cooking done. Can I talk about Mount Lina, is that okay?Lina 1:04:48I figured it was gonna come up. Yeah, okay, so we'll talk about Mount Lina. Yeah, you want to tell everyone what that lien is? Mount Lina is this corner of my bedroom. Where am I dresser is and you couldn't see the top of the dresser for months, because it's just a mountain of doom. Like just a mountain of doom lay like that's the best I can describe it just of clothes of random things that somehow made its way to the top of my dresser and I couldn't see my dresser for since I moved into this apartment, which was in 2021, up until earlier this year. Hannah Choi 1:05:37Congratulations! Lina 1:05:39Yeah. So Workspace helped me tackle Mount Lena. And it only took like, a day. And I was just like, Why? Why am I like this,Hannah Choi 1:05:48I had a client who, who had the same, she also had a mountain. And it was a desk at the bottom of her stairs in her living room. And so we did that I just sat with her during an entire session, and she cleaned it off. And she did it. And so that's the idea of body doubling, which, which Beth you didn't name but the body doubling is a super effective strategy for task initiation, especially for people with ADHD. And there's, there's like YouTube, you can go on YouTube, and just search for bodily to ebbeling. And they'll be like someone cleaning your closet out.Beth Malvino 1:06:23You know, one of the things with Lina that I've, I've really seen, because a lot of our sessions have been focused on that internet, you know, negative narrative that's been running through her head, is her ability to take risks. And to you know, for example, looking, thinking about relocating and going on job interviews, and just, I mean, it's, it's terrifying to think about moving from one city to another. And that can often be an obstacle to task initiation is fear. And she's really, really pushed past that. And she's, she's doing it,Lina 1:07:05you know, it sucks, having to really examine the things around you, and yourself, and your internal narrative to be like, Oh, this is what I've had. And this is what I know. And it's comfortable, but it's not working anymore, and having to do things differently, and having to really be like, No, this is what I really need. And that being at odds which with what you thought you needed. And there's a grief in that there's a sadness in that. And there's a lot of yeah, just because it's good to make these changes doesn't mean that it doesn't feel shitty, while you're doing it. So it's, there's been a lot of that, tooHannah Choi 1:07:51And, and it can, it can, I know, like for myself, like it can, making doesn't matter the size of the change, just recognizing like, this, this thing that I've the way that I've been doing, it has not been working, whether it's like, I don't know, I used to keep a grocery list on a piece of paper. And now I use any list. Like just recognizing like this system that I that I've been using for so long. It's actually not that great. And admitting that and not beating yourself up over it and saying, Okay, let me be open to something new, and then trying the new thing. Can really that's difficult work to do whatever the size, whatever the size is.Lina 1:08:32Yeah, yeah, like there have been definite things like, I was furious when I discovered that the dictate speech to text tool exists in Microsoft Word this whole time, that could have made my life so much easier if I had just known about it. Now, if I had known that I was a verbal processor, you know, I could have just spoken and wrote all my papers that way. But no, I didn't know that. Or, you know, I am so happy I have a Google Home assistant now because that thing helps me out so much. When it comes to like needing to verbally process I can just say hey, I won't say it now. But I can add this to this list, like when I remember it, and then I have it in my phone because it recorded it like my Costco list or Trader Joe list, my regular grocery list or my Home Depot list or this or that, you know, we're Amazon list like I can just remember. Like, I can just say it, it'll record it and then I don't have to remember it anymore. And I don't have to feel like I you know, because once it's out of the mouth, it just goes poof in the brain. Like it's just gone.Cassie 1:09:41Like, like your Google Assistant is like a digital version of my thought collector.Lina 1:09:46Yes. Yes.Cassie 1:09:50I use my Alexa more often for alarms and time-awareness. Yes, I do that to like, hey, in 30 minutes, remind me to take the stuff out of the washer or I do do that too times so that I can actually go and take the trash out before midnight, you know, thatLina 1:10:05Or remind me to put the wash or the laundry that's in the washer and the dryer so that I don't have to rewash it again, because I forgot. Because yeah, like I, I have to tell myself to do that, or, you know, it helps a lot with you know, I sleep with brown noise at night nowCassie 1:10:24Me too! Brown noise is better than white noiseLina 1:10:28It's so much better. And I it's so much more soothing to me. And so I listen to brown noise and that helps me out a lot. And, you know, I have a hard time waking up in the morning. I am not a morning person, I I've come to accept this fact about myself after years of trying to become a morning person. But what helps me wake up in the morning is turning on lights, like I'm very light sensitive. And so I tell my Google to turn on my bedroom lights at a certain time in the morning, like, Hey, turn on the bedroom lamp at such and such time, like at 6:30. And it'll do that and I'll turn the lights on before I put my alarm so that it's sort of like a wake, go Yeah, like a gradual thing. So it's not as terrible as the way I was waking myself up before getting a really loud alarm clock, putting it in my kitchen. And it it literally sounded like one of those loud school bells, like old 1950s school bells. And it was the worst way to wake up because it was just so abrasive, and it made me get out of bed, which I didn't want to do. And yeah, just like being more gentle with how you do things. Because all the harsh ways that I was doing number four just weren't working.Beth Malvino 1:11:40You know, what you're you're both of you are kind of capturing is that it's sort of the essence of what we try to do. And in coaching to in which both of you have really just navigated beautifully is the idea that it's not about trying harder. It's about trying differently. And I know I say that a lot. I still say that to both of you at times. But I say that just in general, that's sort of like a mantra that I have. Because that's really what it's about. It's, you know, the systems and the tools that you were using or didn't have before. You know, it's it's not about just working harder or putting in more efforts. It's about learning new strategies and new tools and finding what works for you and what works for you may not work for someone else. But that's okay. And to kind of become comfortable with that idea that I just need. I just haven't yet figured out what tools work for me. And both of you have worked so hard over the course of your journey in coaching to figure those things out, which has just been phenomenal and so amazing for me to witness.Hannah Choi 1:12:57Well, I could literally talk about this all day, but I actually have a client 12:30, speaking of being able to eat thank you so much for joining me and having this really really really important conversation. And it was really lovely for me to listen to hear to listen to your stories, and, and I appreciate your honesty and your openness. And I know that, that our listeners will really appreciate that too. And, and Beth, thank you so much for joining us. And then providing the coach perspective. And also social worker perspective. It's, it's been it was really, really enrich the conversation. So thank you so much. Beth Malvino 1:13:40My pleasure. Lina 1:13:40Thank you. Hannah Choi 1:13:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation. As we talked about in this episode validation is a huge part of feeling better about the challenges we face. And we really, really hope that someone out there feels validated after hearing these shared struggles. You are not alone. Listen to what Lina shared about why she wanted to be on the podcast and why she became a social worker.Lina 1:14:11You know, I think it comes down to because I love people and I love creating spaces and holding space for people who don't feel like they belong or who don't ever feel validated just because I think most of my life, I felt that way. And yeah, it's, you know, it's really important, even if it's in the smallest of ways, or in ways that seem insignificant. Nothing is ever insignificant, I think.Hannah Choi 1:14:44If you know anyone who might really relate to Lina's and Cassie's stories, please share this episode with them. Thank you

If you've been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches' perspective to the conversation. I know you'll enjoy learning from their expertise as much as I have! Here are some resources related to our conversation:A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing ChildPeg Dawson's Smart but Scattered BooksChild Mind Institute Guide to Executive FunctioningExecutive Function Skills by AgeDownloadable Guides by Age from Harvard UniversityFocus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challengesContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18If you've listened to focus forward for a while, you'll know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on older kids, our teens and college age students. We've covered mental health, coping skills, social skills and college challenges. While we tend to think about how EF skills impact are older children, these skills do start developing in infancy. Babies' interactions with adults help them learn to focus their attention, build their working memory, and regulate their reactions to the things they experience. Everything is new, so they need to learn how to manage at all. As they grow, young children begin to learn planning, flexible thinking and attention. And as a parent or caregiver of young kiddos you might look at them and think "Do they have any executive function skills at all?" They're developing, and rather unreliable, EF skills require a lot of patience and understanding on our part. As I talked about before in my cognitive flexibility episode, it can help so much to learn about EF skill development. And in doing that, we can recognize that children's EF skill development is nowhere near where ours is. I thought it would be helpful to explore what EF skill development looks like in young children, how we can support them by providing tools that help and how we can support ourselves by understanding where they are in their EF skill development. In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting EF skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud, who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education, and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie and Mariam are all EF coaches with Beyond BookSmart. And they bring their coach's perspective to the conversation as well. And bonus if you have watched our webinar, How to Reduce Conflict and Transform Your Parenting Through Executive Function, you'll recognize Mariam's voice and wisdom. And if you haven't watched it, you can find the link in the show notes. It's packed full of executive functioning skill approaches, and tips for reducing conflict with our kids. And hey, I'm the host of that, too. All right now on to the show. Hannah Choi 03:09Hi, Maria. Thanks for joining me today.Maria Ares 03:11Hi, Hannah. Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 03:13Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Maria Ares 03:16Sure. My name is Maria. And I'm a speech language pathologist and a public preschool where I work with kids who are aged three, four and five. And I also work for Beyond BookSmart wearing many hats, and quite a bit of coaching and coach development and different roles throughout my time with Beyond BookSmart. Hannah Choi 03:35Great. And you're my sister!Maria Ares 03:38I am. Yes, fun fact.Hannah Choi 03:42So you are quite well versed, I would say at working with kids under five or five and under. And I was just talking with someone the other day who was surprised to hear that executive function skills are like they start developing even at birth, and you know, start to show up at written really young eight, you know, at really young ages. So, what do executive What does executive function look like in a kid who's under the age of five? And what are some challenges that might come up?Maria Ares 04:18Yeah, so pretty much every developmental milestone has some sort of executive function skill behind it. But what executive function challenges look like at this age is pretty much everything. Basically, every executive function skill needs to be supported in preschoolers. I would say that almost every preschooler has difficulty with some if not all executive function skills, and that's developmentally appropriate and that's what we're here for, you know, to teach them and guide them and help them figure out you know, these these little skills that help them be people that can do things.Hannah Choi 04:58Yeah, and as caregivers of children, it can be really frustrating because we're coming from a place of having really well, maybe not really great executive function skills, but more fully developed executive function skills. And so it's can be really hard to understand like, why can't they just fill in the blank?Maria Ares 05:16Absolutely. And there's so many blanks you can fill in there.Hannah Choi 05:20All day, every day. And I love that you said that it's developmentally appropriate. Like, that's totally normal. I mean, our frontal cortex, that prefrontal cortex does not finish the finish developing. And we're seeing that you can still make improvements on your executive function skills after your mid 20s, which is about when the prefrontal cortex kind of is finished developing. So obviously, a kid who is little their prefrontal cortex is just getting going,Maria Ares 05:52Absolutely, yeah, they're in the earliest, earliest stages of being able to, you know, show and develop a lot of these skills. And that's really what a lot of early childhood curriculum is centered around is sort of building up the skills that you need, and also the social emotional piece that goes along with executive functioning, and sort of how you can use those skills to keep learning and growing.Hannah Choi 06:18Yeah, and so I imagine that when parents feel it, parents might feel like there's not enough academics going on, it's in a preschool setting. But really, at that point, there's, it is really important to focus on that social, emotional and executive function, skill development. Maria Ares 06:37Absolutely. You need to be able to learn how to learn before you can start learning and being able to use your developing executive function skills to you know, complete different tasks in the classroom, make a project, follow directions, all those things are so important to academics and academic development, but you really can't make much progress academically, if you don't know how to learn first, Hannah Choi 07:01That reminds me of the idea of metacognition, where you in, in order, like as in, which is actually like pretty much the last executive function skill to fully develop. And the idea of metacognition is like learning how we learn, learning about our own brains and how our own brains work. And so it's kind of the same idea like these, the little kids can't really learn the academics until they learn just how to function with other people.Maria Ares 07:30Absolutely, yeah. And that metacognition piece is something that I think a lot about in my teaching. And I tried to help kids remember that everybody learns differently, and that everybody has different strengths, and everybody has different things that they need to work on. I really try often, after a task to ask, "Was that tricky for you? Or was that easy for you?" And then talk about why because starting to build those metacognitive skills, and understand that everybody's brain works really differently, I think is really important. So they can get to know themselves as a learner. And as a person.Hannah Choi 08:10I was just talking with my college client of mine the other day, and we were talking about how exactly that about how, if you have never been taught to notice how you experience things. And notice what like, what's tricky, what's easy. And then you can figure out the why if you've never been taught that, then well, first of all, it's never too late to learn that. But you've really missed out on some really great opportunities to, like learn about your own learning. So I love hearing that you do that with such little kids, because it is something that you have to practice. And I feel like as an adult, I don't remember learning that as a child, I don't remember learning, reflection, and to really think about how I do things and why I do things. And so it's it's great to hear that you're teaching that that early.Hannah Choi 09:07Right and I feel like as a kid, I had an idea of what should be easy and what shouldn't be hard and that wasn't always what I found. And I think that making it an individual thing can really help with self esteem because like Oh that one thing is supposed to be easy, but it's actually really hard for me. If you get if you if you get rid of that whole "is supposed to be easy piece" and think about you as a person and whether it's easy or hard for you that I think that can really help develop a you know, a stronger sense of selfHannah Choi 09:44And comparing yourself to yourself. This used to be hard. And now it is getting easier for me, instead of comparing yourself to other other kids, other people around you teaching kids to learn to compare themselves to themselves and not to anyone else and learn about how they learn. It's also a really great lesson for parents to learn, too. I imagine that let's look at your child's development, your child's progress, just compared to where they've come from, and not necessarily against any other children. Maria Ares 10:18Oh, yeah, totally, especially if there's siblings on the picture. Hannah Choi 10:21So the you I mean, you are saying that there are executive function challenges in pretty much every area off the top of your head? What are some of the most common would you say that you see in your, in your practice in your classrooms? Maria Ares 10:36Yeah, something that first comes to mind is like multi step directions. This can be really hard. attention span, understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses. Problem solving can be really challenging for some kids, and understanding of time is a huge one.Hannah Choi 10:57So do you think that executive function skills are something that parents, like, should spend time working on with their kids? Or are they just going to naturally evolve?Maria Ares 11:08I think the best thing for parents to do is to do a lot of modeling, modeling of your language modeling of planning, talking about the process for things, talking about how you can be present so that you can pay attention. But not you know, not. But I don't think that parents need to be specifically practicing any of these things, because like, we were saying it's developmentally appropriate for kids to still be working on that. But some things that I think can be really helpful are like before doing errands, you can talk about the plan, you know, each thing that you're going to do, and whether it will take a short time or a long time. And then when you're talking about time, I think making it relatable can be really helpful. So while two minutes, I mean, they don't really understand numbers, they also don't really understand time very well. So saying something like this will take as long as it takes to brush your teeth. Or this will take as long as one episode of Masha and the Bear, or this will take as long as it takes to drive to your grandparents' house. And then also give them the number to go along with that. So they start to learn, okay, five minutes is the kind of short time, you know, doesn't take me very long to do something that takes five minutes. But then an hour is like my entire lifetime, a super long time. So then just using those examples, and using that modeling can start to build the foundation of, you know, understanding time management and sort of what we can fit into certain blocks of time. Another tool that can be helpful, is if your child really struggles with multi step directions, or like a multi step plan, just writing out a super quick visual, with maybe a little picture of everything that needs to happen. So maybe they need to put on their socks, put on their shoes and wash their hands or something, just drawing a little picture of each of those and then helping them sort of check it off when they're done with it can really help with the planning and the executing of a of a project or just a multistep task.Hannah Choi 13:22And if someone is not an artist, are there resources online, I'm imagining you can grab some clipart from somewhere.Maria Ares 13:33Yeah, for sure. There's lots of different resources out there. I'm sure there's lots of free resources, but less than pics is a really great website for getting pictures like that. But honestly, you know, you don't need to be an artist stick figures are great. Doodles are great. I think just getting the idea down on on paper or on a whiteboard or something can be helpful.Hannah Choi 14:00And it shows like if you draw it, then it shows your child that it's that it's okay, if you don't have really great art skills.Maria Ares 14:07There is another opportunity to talk about that.Hannah Choi 14:12I love it. That's great. So what would you say that success looks like at this age? And I know that's, I know that's different for everybody. But would you what do you see first as success in that age group?Maria Ares 14:28Yeah, success can look different for every one. Because there are so many skills that our earliest learners are building. For some kids success might look like exclaiming that was easy, which shows that they're thinking about how tasks feel for them, you know, is it easy, is it hard? Success could look like executing both parts of a two step direction. For another success might look like remembering to put pants on.Hannah Choi 14:58Reminds me of a when I interviewed Fran, she said, kids with executive function challenges sometimes forget to put underwear on. So she said success in my house is when they remember to put underwear on.Maria Ares 15:12Yeah, it's it's hard to find a developmental milestone in early childhood that doesn't include executive function skills in some way.Hannah Choi 15:20 Yeah. And it also, something that comes up a lot for us as coaches is the idea of looking for those small wins. And, and it didn't, and especially with this little, these little guys, it's not going to be these huge, you know, they're not gonna like write a paper, and then have, you know, have all these like, massive accomplishments that they've made in their executive function skills, you know, it's going to be more subtle, I imagine.Maria Ares 15:48Absolutely. Definitely, definitely more subtle. You know, they're growing and developing so much every day. So there's so much to notice, and so much to celebrate. And it might not always look like executive function skills, but they're under there for sure. Hannah Choi 16:05And I imagined that there's like there is at any, any age, you might make some progress, and then and then fall back of it and then go forward.Maria Ares 16:15Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important for parents to remember, you know, just how much their preschooler is learning and developing at one time. And, you know, if they were able to follow a two step direction last week, and this week, they're just, you know, having a really hard time with it. Think about the other things that they're developing that maybe their brain is focusing on a little bit more this week. And I think that we need to cut them a little slack personally, sometimes.Hannah Choi 16:49I agree, and it's, I guess, it's hard because the lens through which we are looking is from the point of view of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex and years of experience.Maria Ares 17:01Yeah. And it's also very easy for me to say this about my preschoolers, but when I'm talking about my own child, no, get those shoes on! Hannah Choi 17:08Yeah, That's right. Yes. It's just a two step direction. Yes, or when? When..or my 10 year old. When I say, "Could you put your clothes in the washing machine?" The second step is not mentioned. But it starting it is, is part of it. So he did. He did what I said. But yeah, you did not do the unspoken second step.Maria Ares 17:46Right. I recently made a, like a visual step by step chart for tooth brushing. After we had a little cavity incident. Yeah. So you know, I wrote, I'm just never going to not be a special education teacher. So there's charts and lists and everything in our house of how to do everything. But I had to make a new one, because I didn't include as my last step on the list to clean the spit out of the sink.Hannah Choi 18:16Oh, Yes!Maria Ares 18:20I mean, I thought you don't really need a step on a list for that.Hannah Choi 18:24But here we are. Here we are. And so does she do it now?Maria Ares 18:28Most of the time? Yeah. Right. Which is more than never before. So Right. There's progress. Yeah. And now we can just say, "check your list", rather than "clean the disgusting spit out of the sink", which is a lot easier and you know, feels a lot more. Just feels a lot better to say.Hannah Choi 18:49Yeah, and it takes a takes you out of the equation. You can blame it on the list. The list is the list is what it says. And who knows where that list came from? Yeah, select some internet list or something. All right. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Maria Ares 19:07Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah. Hannah Choi 19:11All right. Have fun with those little kids.Hannah Choi 19:13Thanks. Okay, so now that we've learned about our youngest children's EF skill development with Maria, let's move on to my conversation with Stephanie and Mariam to hear about elementary aged kids and their EF skills. Hi, Stephanie and Mariam, thanks so much for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Stephanie, you want to go first?Stephanie Regan 19:35Sure. I'm Stephanie Regan. I'm an executive function coach with Beyond BookSmart and I've been working here at Beyond BookSmart for almost two years now. I was an elementary teacher and worked with children in different capacities for about 10 years.Hannah Choi 19:51Great. And how about you Mariam?Mariam Mahmoud 19:53I'm also one of the executive function coaches. I've been working with Beyond BookSmart for almost a year. I'm and I also have been a teacher since 2010. Working with kindergarten all the way to fourth grade.Hannah Choi 20:07Great. So you guys are the perfect people to ask, you have the executive function background and the elementary background. So great. Thank you for joining me today. So we are going to talk about executive function skills in elementary aged kids. So what do challenges look like at that age? And, you know, as, as I've talked about, in many episodes past, before this, we know that executive function skills develop over the beginning part of our lifetime and don't even mature until we're in our 20s, late 20s. And then, of course, we all have things that we still struggle with, even after that. But what do what are your challenges for kids who are in elementary school look like?Stephanie Regan 20:51I would say organization for for space and belongings is really huge. And what that looks like is a lot of students have a hard time remembering where to put things or where they've placed things or where things go. So that's really important. And also, I would say task initiation too, is hard, especially when you think about how impulse control is hard. And I think about that, when it's time to do homework, it can be really hard for a lot of students to begin homework, and not just kind of relax or do something else. That might be easier. I would also say self-regulation. Yes, definitely self regulation to again, and thinking about impulse control is another area to where executive function skill development is really important, because they're still learning to control their impulses.Hannah Choi 21:38Yeah, and that can show up, like you said, in emotion, it can show up in behavior, and it can show up in emotion. So yeah, yeah. And stuff like that self regulation piece is huge. I mean, even as adults, like how often like, I don't know, I want to throw a tantrum sometimes. But I have to regulate your emotions and appropriate way. And it's harder for the kids, because they're just not there yet. I know like, as a parent, my kids at home have certain things that they struggle with. And I'm sure in the classroom, they also have things that they have to work on. So where do, where do executive function skill, challenges show up for kids in the classroom?Stephanie Regan 22:15In the classroom, it can look like following directions, especially one step at a time. Sometimes directions can be complicated, or it can seem complicated to different students. So really, it can also come down to meeting steps broken down into smaller steps for students. So that's often where it can show up in the classroom. And I mean, there are a myriad of ways in which they can, but I feel like as far as following directions, and following routines.Hannah Choi 22:46That's that. And there's, I was just gonna say there are so many executive function skills involved in following directions, right? You like you have to memory you have to remember the steps you have to pay attention. You have to prioritize the knew the steps that you're supposed to be doing over the other thing that you want to do or that you weren't doing. Stephanie Regan 23:06Yeah, so many involved, not to mention distractions in the classroom, full of students. So, there's a lot going on.Hannah Choi 23:15Yeah, so that self regulation piece and impulse control.Mariam Mahmoud 23:20I wanted to add also organization, like just if a teacher gives a paper, like just getting the paper from the classroom to the house that you like, you have to know where to put it, and who to give it to you what stays home and what comes back. Stephanie Regan 23:32So these executive function skill challenges can also show up during recess. On the playground. So again, thinking about self-regulation, it can be hard to not just make friends, but also share friends. That's come up with a former younger client of mine. And also negotiating play can be really hard. I know, when I was a teacher, there was a rule. That was you can't say you can't play. But it's easier said than done. So self regulation during recess is a huge piece. And some students know, I shouldn't say know, but it's easier for some students to have unstructured time than is for other students. And recess can feel really unstructured. And sometimes, I mean, that that can be good. And it can also be challenging for for students. SoHannah Choi 24:29Yeah, I was just, I was just talking with my my son's friend. So my son is in fifth grade. And I was talking with his friend, and, and his friend was saying he does not like recess. And he was saying he doesn't like it because it's so crazy. And it's so yeah, I guess he didn't use the word unstructured, but I kind of read that, that's what he meant. So yeah, yeah, you just think of it as every kid would just like it because it's a break from doing work. But for some kids, it's it Can we I know I see that it is hard. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you have anything you wanted to add Mariam on that?Mariam Mahmoud 25:09Um, I don't think so I think like recess, some usually when we think of executive function skills, we're thinking of like school in like the content area, but like recess is just as important because school is not only for the educational purposes, it's also for the social purposes. So I think like, it was really important that Stephanie mentioned that recess is a huge, huge place where we see those skills take take place, or evolve over time.Hannah Choi 25:36Yeah. And and it shows how truly involved in every aspect of our lives as adults, and as children, aren't these executive function skills come into play, and they truly are self management skills, and, and how it can show up in different areas and how it can also really challenge kids and adults. But mostly, you know, we're talking about kids today really challenged kids, especially because they haven't fully developed them yet, especially there, many of them are still emerging in elementary school, they're just starting to, you know, just starting to access that whatever skill. So it's, it's a Yeah, no wonder it can be challenging. And I think understanding that is it as a parent, or as a caregiver, as a teacher understanding that can make a really huge differenceStephanie Regan 26:30It can. I know, it can be easier when you're in the place where we can take a step back and really think about it from a different perspective or think about it from a more objective view.Hannah Choi 26:40Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And that makes me think of how nice it is to have someone who is not, not like super super, as involved with your kid as you are as a parent. So like a teacher can maybe teach some of these skills to their students, in a like, less fraught way that it might be for a parent, or like a coach or something, somebody who's outside of the family a little bit, and not like with a child all the time with all the baggage that comes along with the relationships we have with our kids?Mariam Mahmoud 27:19Absolutely. I mean, I have two children. One is like, very, very organized. And my younger one is also in fifth grade. And sometimes I'm like, even though I'm an executive function coach, and elementary school teacher, sometimes it doesn't work when I'm telling him the advice. But if it comes from a teacher, or from the coach, then he's like, the next day, like, he's slowly getting it. And I'm like, okay, awesome, as long as the help comes from somewhere, but yeah, it does. It matters. Like sometimes parents, no matter how much we want to get to through to our children coming from outside, like might have a different effect on them.Stephanie Regan 27:56Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's also a matter of reinforcement. So they're not just hearing it from from mom or dad, who they, you know, have to, you know, see, well, all the time as soon as they see all the time. But, you know, students spend a lot of time with their teachers as well. But it can help too. And you're, you're hearing getting more than one place. Absolutely.Hannah Choi 28:16So that makes me think like, How can parents support their kids executive function, development without? Or maybe not without friction? Because there's going to be friction, that's just part of the relationship. But how are some ways that parents can support their kids?Mariam Mahmoud 28:35Well, I say like, I think like, the best thing, especially for elementary school students is like I turn everything into a game, or something you'd like have them play, like plan that the activity or the school, like, whether it's school, or sports or like a fun activity at home, have them plan it out beforehand. It helps them reach whatever the goal is in mind, and have them thinking, "Oh, what, what do I want to accomplish? And what steps am I going to take to get there?" Like some activities, if you're reading a story at home, you could stop and ask the question like, "What would you do if you were that character?" Or what would happen if the character was different in the story, this helps, it gets their cognitive thinking, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be upset, or maybe the character shouldn't be upset. And then they like kind of connect that to self to what's happening in the real life. So the text to self connections is really important. You can also play like those games, like Simon Says, or card games card games is like my own children, they love card games. It helps with the memory skills, it helps with like paying attention, it helps with a lot of those executive function skills in a fun way. It also allows them to take turns, follow directions, and even like that impulse control, like it helps them like they have to wait their turn or like they can't just like call out so It's a it's a fun way where they're learning the executive function skills, but at the same time, they don't know. It's like learning.Hannah Choi 30:06Yeah, exactly. Right. They're actually learning a ton of stuff. Yeah. And that's also good too. Because as parents, it can often end up that the interactions that we have with our kids are not always super fun. So, so giving, giving yourself a chance to just play and have fun with your kids, while also teaching EF skills at the same time, is really great. Yeah, I think for me, definitely getting out of the way, and trying to trying to move them towards independence, and also move towards having more positive interactions that have less to do with, what do you need? What do you need to do? Are you doing what you need to do? Why aren't you doing this? So being able to support them in that way, is really nice. So I'm a coach, I'm an executive function coach, I have, you know, a ton of knowledge and experience supporting people and kids with executive function challenges. And I've, you know, done a lot of research on it. I mean, I host a podcast about it. So I have a lot of knowledge. And I still struggle to come up with tools and strategies that I can use for myself, but also that my kids can use so that we can work on developing theirs, and also give them this independence and this autonomy that they crave. And that I need for them to have, so that I can you know, just do my live my life. So what are your further things that come up for kids like the organization and the self regulation and the task initiation? What, what are your go to go to tools that you teach to your clients and to their parents?Stephanie Regan 31:50Well, I would say my go-to tool is a checklist. It sounds really Yeah. and straightforward. And I mean, it's a tool that I use on a weekly basis. So it can be easier to teach it and support it when you use it. So I think having a checklist, an example would be a checklist for an after school routine. And that could look like, you know, come home, put my bag away, eat a snack, start homework, it can have a number of things on it. But I think it's good to keep it to like three or five things. I also think if it's visible and accessible, then it's more helpful. So with that in mind, I think it's important to place it where the client or student can see it at eye level, and it can help I think, ease any tension or frustration around reminding your student or reminding a child of what he she or they need to do when they get home. You can also refer to it like, oh, like remember, you have a checklist that you like, do this, or did you do that? Or what is your checklist, say and if it's at eye level, then the student if the if they're if they can read, then a student can refer to it. And also it's important to use simple language toHannah Choi 33:08Or pictures as well. Right? Yes.Stephanie Regan 33:10Pictures. I do like to use pictures. I won't say I'm a visual learner, because you learn differently. You learn different subjects differently or different topics differently. But I I do like visualization. And I do like pictures that can go along with words or phrases, if not, if I think it's necessary. So that can also be really helpful.Hannah Choi 33:36Yeah, we have a list on our door that goes out to the garage with the things that the kids need to bring in. And it's really nice to just be able to say, "Did you check the list?" I don't have to get involved. I just have to say, "Did you check the list?" I had to make the list, but and I hung up the list. But after that, all I have to say is "Did you check the list?" And then if they didn't check the list, you know, that's on them. So and I mean, my kids are older. So it is easier for me to say that's on them if they didn't check the list, but we scaffold them right? We maybe support them if they forget something on the list and then move them towards leaving it up to them if they forget things on the list.Stephanie Regan 34:13And there can become a point in time where they memorize the list. Oh, yeah, hi is a few things on the list and you don't really need to point it out. You know, they can they might come to a place where they have it memorized which is good too.Hannah Choi 34:25Yeah, I was just talking last night with a friend of mine whose kids are in second and third grade. And she was saying that that she was sharing that she also has a checklist for the morning and it says "pack backpack" and she said she's so funny, she was like "I used I even used indented bullets." So she has packed backpack and then indented bullets. And then it lists the things that go into the backpack and she noticed that her son had not been putting the snack in and she's like, why didn't you put the snack in? He said well because it didn't say pack snack. She's like me, it's just to take the pack from the top part. Pack the indented bulleted things. Stephanie Regan 35:04So, yeah, yeah, reminder that students can be very literal people very, very literal. Not just children!Hannah Choi 35:12Don't assume! And yes, that is such a good point. Stephanie, I completely agree. Yes. What about you, Mariam? I'm, what do you like to use?Mariam Mahmoud 35:22No, I honestly like the same as Stephanie, those checklists. For the younger students. When my children were younger, I instead of doing it over and over again, like, I just put it in like, one of those sleeves, like a paper protector, and kind of turned it into like a dry erase thing. So they would check it off, then I would erase it and then use it again. Yeah, brilliant. And putting it on the refrigerator or the same spot every day, like just having it there. Or like, when they were like, a lot younger, any, like little magnets interact and be like, Oh, I got it's on instead of a checklist, like just put like a little tiny magnet.Hannah Choi 35:58Oh, yeah. Smart. I know. Something that Oh, go ahead. Sorry.Stephanie Regan 36:03I was gonna say I'm an adult. And I like checking things off. In Google. I still get satisfaction from checking things off my grocery list.Hannah Choi 36:14yes, I'm the same way I use any list. And when you tap, it disappears. It's very satisfying. Yeah. I also am a big fan of writing things that I did on my list. So if it wasn't on the list, but I did it, I still write it on the list and then cross it off. After the fact.Stephanie Regan 36:33I was gonna say what you said about like, doing things that weren't on the list reminded me of five minute goals, or the idea of doing like, what you can have five minutes, because you could actually end up doing a lot more than you think you thought you could. Another good strategy or tool was like, okay, like if, if something is a fight, or a struggle with your child at home, or even a student at school, or a client during a coaching session? The Five Minute goals out okay, well, let's see how much you can get done in five minutes. And a lot of times, it's also been three minutes with a particular client of mine, but it's like, what, what can you get done in three minutes? And that I set a timer, it can also turn into a game, or it can be more fun. Hannah Choi 37:16So yes, like they're racing. Yes. Yeah.Stephanie Regan 37:20Doing more than you thought you could is also it can also boost self esteem and, and what have you, so that that's also good to.Hannah Choi 37:27Absolutely I love that tool.Mariam Mahmoud 37:29It also enforces our time awareness. Like they're like, Oh, well, that was five minutes, and I was able to put my shoes away and get my backpack out and get a snack or whatever they could do in five minutes. Like, they're usually very, like, amused or amazed that they could, they could do that much in five minutes. So.Hannah Choi 37:47I was I had that experience. When I, I, we have a gas stove. And I really hate cleaning it off after we cook dinner because you have to like, lift up the grates. And there's so many crevices. It's so annoying. And so I found myself avoiding it, which is gross. And then it looks gross. And and so I said oh, you know what I'm gonna time myself is I think that it takes me about 10 minutes. It took me four minutes, like four minutes top to bottom even wiping down the oven door and the handle on everything. Like Hannah. So every time I don't want to clean off the stove at night, I always say four minutes, you have four minutes. Yeah, it's a really good tool. The other thing I really like about five minute goals and that I always say to myself, and anyone else that I'm suggesting use it is that when that timer goes off, and whether you've set it for two minutes or five minutes or whatever, you can then either decide to be done, or keep going. And it's really nice, because it's like a built in permission to be done. I'm only asking you to do this for five minutes. Oh, you're you're into it. You're like, oh, maybe I'll just keep going. Alright, then keep going. But if you're like, No, this sucks, and I don't want to do this anymore. Then you stop it. I really I like that. That flexibility built in.Stephanie Regan 39:04Yeah, I was gonna say it's good for task initiation and also cognitive flexibility, too. It's like, Oh, that wasn't so hard. Maybe I can keep going.Hannah Choi 39:15Right totally gets you to change your perspective on it.Mariam Mahmoud 39:18Absolutely. I use that strategy actually, for my, my one son, he hates going outside. Like he just doesn't like playing outside and the other one like really enjoys it. So I'm like, Just 10 minutes a day after school just go out for 10 minutes a day. And he's out there for like 20-30 minutes like he absolutely loves it. Um, so I'm like this really like it worked. Just setting that and sometimes like if he's tired, he's like, it's a 10 minutes up, but for the most part, like it got him to go outside more, which was really great at our house, at least.Hannah Choi 39:48Yes. And that brings me back up. Always, always, always just start small, right? Anything that can that feels like it's going to be hard. Feels like it's going to be Challenge start small, which is the same thing when you are implementing new strategies that you're using with your kids to try to make some change in either your relationship with them or trying to build autonomy and independence for them. So you have to start small, this is not a change that's going to happen overnight. It's not, you know, you can't all of a sudden throw all these tools at your kids, and be like, tada, magic. It just doesn't work that way. And there's going to be times that we slip, and there's going to be times that, that we forget. And it's just easier for us to just pack their backpack because we're late. And I just want to pack your backpack because you're not doing it right anyway. But as long as as long as we recognize that is not going to happen overnight, and just do small steps, small steps working towards that independence, I think, at least for me, personally, and what I've seen in my clients, it makes a really big difference.Mariam Mahmoud 40:55Absolutely. And celebrate those small successes too. It's really important if they forgot their backpack for a week, and they finally remembered it, but they forgot to put their Chromebook inside. At least they remember their backpack. So like it's a small, those small steps, but celebrating it because it makes a huge difference when you're like, Oh, awesome job, great job bringing your backpack every day. They get that sense of pride. And they get the sense of oh, you know what, I could keep doing this? And I could add on?Hannah Choi 41:24Yeah, and they start to see the benefit of doing absolutely, yeah. And that makes me think about how, like, we only have the lens that we have through which to look like we are adults. And we are looking at their situation through this adult lens. And so sometimes it can be really hard to understand like, why can't you just remember to do whatever it is that I've just asked you to do? So I think, let me do you see that a lot when you're working with parents and their kids like helping the helping each other understand that we're all coming from a different perspective?Mariam Mahmoud 42:02Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest things that we have to actually talk to parents about it, just put yourself in their shoes. Yes, it is easy for us, because we've already been through it. Or like been, been through something similar to it, you know, like, we can think of a time that you forgot about your dentist appointment, your doctor's appointment, or you forgot to turn off the stove, when you're making tea, I'm like, it happens to all of us. So we really have this, tell them like just try to think as like the five year old or seven year old or even the teenagers, like there's a lot going on in their mind. It might not be on their top of the things to do is to take their backpack to school, like maybe they were really nervous about a test or, you know, one of their friends were sick or something happened, you know, we just have to always think about what are they feeling?Hannah Choi 42:56Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like that whole...like, for anyone who's listening right now, like you're, you're taking the time to maybe learn something and maybe find something that can help you understand your kids, or maybe ease some of the friction or conflict between you and your kids. And then that's how, like our kids can learn from the role models that they have. And if they if like from their teachers, or their elder siblings, or if they have a coach, just they're just still learning and we were all still learning. I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say.Stephanie Regan 43:34We're definitely all still learning. And I mean, I have my own example of I mean, I don't know if I should lead with logical consequences, but because it doesn't always it doesn't feel good when you forget to do something. And you know, because there's, you know, the intention of doing it, and there's the impact. You know, it's one thing if it affects you, it's another thing if it affects someone else, but I was just thinking how I mean, it can be good. If it's a small logical consequence. That's not detrimental. For students to be like, oh, like, I didn't, this would, I mean, be for an older client, but I you know, I didn't look at Google Calendar and I've got to have a quiz, a science quiz. So the logical, you know, the, so there's a consequence of forgetting the quiz, which stinks and then But then there's like, Okay, so next time I'm going to do this. Yes. Which is really important for for that awareness. metacognitive awareness and growth as well.Hannah Choi 44:37So do you guys have any other go to tools that you'd like to share with your clients and parents,Mariam Mahmoud 44:41So one go to tool that like, I think all my clients love once I tell them about it as a fastbreak plan. It's basically like, Okay, I have homework to do, and I have studying to do and I have to walk the dog and my chores to do but I also want to play my video games. So it's coming home and having the child like come home, right from school and do everything that's like a priority according to the parents standards. Just break it up like, Okay, let's do read your reading vocabulary words for 30 minutes, then you could do like a five minute or 15 minute break, then let's get back to doing maybe your math work. This will take like, maybe 20 minutes, okay, then let's take a break. I'm just having those little like brain breaks in between it really lets the child kind of have a sense of their own schedule. Like, yeah, I could do this or I could do that and get the child involved with the fastbreak plan, right? It sounds like does this work for you? Like one of my children, like he gets home, he wants his work, done his homework, like he wants it out of the way. The other one, like he is tired from work, and he's like, I want to play first. And I'm like, Okay, let's come up with a routine that works for you. I mean, it took me a while to get there. Because I'm like, No, it has to be like this. But once I have, like, I listened to him, and I told him, like, he told me what he wants to do. Now he gets all of his work done. But he's not doing it, how I would do it, but that's totally okay. He's using basically that fast break plan where he gets the work done. But he has that time to play and just kind of relax in between.Hannah Choi 46:15And I love how you brought up how, like for you, that's not how you would do it. But you you were able to see from his point of view, this is this really is gonna work for him and how his sibling is, had to approaches it differently. And my kids are the same way. My fifth grader he wants to come in, he wants to get his homework done right away. He doesn't want to have anything that he needs to do. And then he can just go and do it. And then my daughter, she likes to kind of spread it out over the over the evening. So yeah. And I think I think that's really hard to do. I mean, it's hard to do, it's hard to see other people's perspectives, like regardless of who the person's perspective is you're trying to see, it's hard to do, and I do, I really think it's, it is absolutely worth taking the time to try to understand. And you know, and if they come up and like I love how you said get them involved. So they come up with a plan that does really work for them. Why do they have to do it the way you would do it? As long as it's working for them? Why not? Why not? Let them discover that on their own? And how much? How many lessons in independence and autonomy does that teach them?Mariam Mahmoud 47:24Absolutely not to mention, it really does reduce that friction. Like it like,Hannah Choi 47:29It gets you out of the way!Mariam Mahmoud 47:31Oh, I wish I did this a long time ago, like it really like, right? He's doing his work. He's getting everything done by the end of the night, which is the end goal anyways. So I actually never works well.Hannah Choi 47:42Yeah. And the consequences, the natural consequences, logical consequences that you were talking about before Stephanie? Like, okay, so here, I'm going to let you, you know, build this plan, and I'm going to, I'm going to trust you to work through this plan. And if you don't manage your time, well, and you are still you know, up doing your stuff late or you didn't get it done, and then you don't get to turn it in, then there's a consequence. And then maybe you are able to, to, you know, learn from that for the next time. And I think, as parents and maybe even as caregivers not not in the role of a parent, but even as a teacher, especially with younger children. You don't want your kids to experience those natural consequences, you don't want them to have a negative experience, you don't want them to feel bad, you know, you just want them to have this like happy existence where they don't experience those negative feelings. But that's where they learn. And that all those opportunities to learn all that is only going to serve them really well as they get older, and the challenges get bigger, and their responsibilities get bigger. And so if we're constantly trying to protect them from those negative emotions, whatever it is, by doing all the things that they forgot for them, then they miss out on a lot of learning opportunities. I think it is important to consider if you have the time and the bandwidth to consider the different aspects of each situation that can be helpful. Mariam Mahmoud 49:13Absolutely. And give the child time as well. Like if if they make their own schedule, and they're like it's gonna work and the first day they didn't get their homework done. It's not going to change overnight. Again, it's progress, like so what I usually do is like, let's try it for a week or two. And then we talk about it what worked, what didn't work, let's tweak. I mean, as long as their grades aren't going down, and there's they're not forgetting their backpack every single day. I let them learn from the natural consequences. And then we talk about what worked what didn't work, and we change it, because that's how they learn.Hannah Choi 49:44Yep, yeah. And it really does take a long time. It's not it's not overnight. I mean, not even for us, you know, it's as caregivers it's it doesn't happen overnight, either. Like if we're trying to change our approach to our parenting. It doesn't happen overnight. So you Yeah. So as for kids who have for kids who have coaches or who maybe they have like a tutor, or, you know, they work one on one with a specialist, how, how do you guys see parental support coming in? They're like, how did how do you? How do you work with parents of young children.Mariam Mahmoud 50:25Um, for me, I just I let the parents know that like, let the child's practice. If we're working on something in the coaching session, like just practice what we're working on reading for us, for Beyond BookSmart, we have those portal notes, right, where you kind of communicate with the parent, what's going on, let them read the portal, make notes and understand what the tool is, share, like sharing the tools that you use at home with the coach or the tutor or even the teacher, just be like, Oh, we use this at home, like, as simple as color coding. Maybe you could try it in the classroom, it really helps when there's that communication. So communication is like the top key of helping the child no matter who they're learning it from. It helps us work together and help them succeed, which is the main goalHannah Choi 51:15It really reinforces that consistency, which is what you need to find any success. Is there anything else you guys would like to add? In your experience as as coaches of young children? Is there anything? Any takeaways that are really relevant for, for Listen, our listeners.Mariam Mahmoud 51:35I think just basically, just like we said, like communication, and patience, and just consistency is really, really key to having your child succeed. And working with the teacher with the administration, with the coach, with the tutor, no matter who your child sees, even if it's if they're basketball or baseball or playing a sport. Just knowing what your child is working on, and having that open communication could help them succeed.Stephanie Regan 52:04I would say the goal is progress, not perfection.Hannah Choi 52:08Absolutely. Yes. i When I interviewed Peg Dawson, she said progress. She said her colleague had a thing on the wall that said "Progress is measured in in years and not months". So it just it does. It does. Takes a while. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.Stephanie Regan 52:29Thank you for having us. Mariam Mahmoud 52:30Thank you.Hannah Choi 52:32And that's our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversations about executive function skill development in our youngest kiddos, and that maybe it helps with some of those challenges we experience while parenting or teaching them. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share our show with the people in your lives who might like learning about EF skills and little kids, you never know. It might just make a huge difference for them. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if you listen on Apple or Spotify, give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

When it comes to helping students learn more efficiently, Executive Function skills are the greatest tool teachers have at their disposal. Yet, many teachers aren't aware of their value, and the ones that do often don't know how to support them in the classroom. For example, we had one teacher ask us on our Facebook page how teachers can support their own Executive Function challenges while also managing a classroom full of kids who have varying degrees of Executive Function challenges, too. As soon as I read this question, I knew EF in the classroom was an important topic to cover on Focus Forward - and that I also had the perfect people to reach out to. BrainTracks is a separate division of Beyond BookSmart that's focused on training teachers in Executive Function tools and strategies that they can use in the classroom. I invited the program's director, Susan Lohman, and one of their School Training specialists, Allison Larthey, to talk about the role Executive Function skills play in the classroom and how teachers can help both their students and themselves develop these skills further. Listen in to learn how you can apply these same strategies to find more time and energy for learning at home or in the classroom. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Be sure to check out the relevant links and resources below that were mentioned in the episode!BraintracksBraintracks WebsiteBraintracks ResourcesYour Kid's Gonna Be Okay by Michael DelmanEp 15: Building Meaning: Life Lessons from an Executive Function PioneerTools6 Steps to Successful Goal Setting for Students (and Adults!)SMART Goals - How to Make Your Goals AchievableCircle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in ActionMirror NeuronsMirror neurons: Enigma of the metaphysical modular brain - PMCThe Mind's MirrorContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi Well, listeners, this episode is a celebration for me because we've officially been on the air for over one year now. I'd like to thank you all for listening. It really means the world to me and my podcast team. I'd like to thank them today too, for helping me bring executive function, skill, knowledge and information to as many people as possible. I am not kidding when I say this podcast would absolutely not be possible without them. I'd like to thank Sean Potts, our producer and editor, Justice Abbott, our content designer, Jackie Hebert, our director of marketing. Mimi Fernandez, our Director of Customer Success, and the rest of the Beyond BookSmart team, including Michael Delman and Rachel Krompinger who never fail to support us and our work. Something that's really important to me is helping people recognize that there are going to be areas of executive functioning that come easily to you, and other areas that probably always have been, and may always will be challenging for you. And this is okay. As we've been exploring over the last year, there are tools and strategies that can help immensely in those challenging areas. Someone asked about this on our Beyond BookSmart Facebook page. The person who posted the question wanted to know how teachers can support their own executive function skill challenges, while also managing a classroom full of kids whose EF skills are all still emerging and in various states of effectiveness. As soon as I read this question, I knew it was an important topic to cover on focus forward, and I knew exactly who I had to reach out to. If you've listened to Episode 15, where I interviewed Michael Delman, the founder and CEO of beyond booksmart, you will have heard us talk about the exciting development of our school division, which was created out of a desire to democratize access to the critical executive function skills education our one on one coaches provide. This school division has grown into what we now call BrainTracks, and is led by director Susan Lohman. I invited Susan and one of her school training specialists Allison Larthey on the podcast to talk about exactly what the Facebook comments are brought up - How to support executive function skill development in the classroom for both kids and their teachers. So listen to learn about the role executive function skills play in the classroom, tools that teachers can use to find more time and energy for learning. And how brain tracks is working diligently to create access to life changing executive function, skill development for all kids, their teachers and their families. Hi, Susan and Allison, thanks so much for joining me. Would you introduce yourself so our listeners know who you are. Susan, you want to start?Susan Lohman 03:25Sure. So I am Susan Lohman. I'm the Director of School Programming, BrainTracks - our school division, and I am a former teacher and instructional coach. So I worked in middle schools and high schools. I worked in traditional brick and mortar schools. And I also spent a lot of time in online education for K - 12. My firsthand experience in the classroom allows me to say The struggle is real for teachers teaching is a really hard job, a very hard job. As an instructional coach, I visited hundreds of classrooms and saw similar experiences with teachers and students. And then through the work of my work as a coach at Beyond BookSmart I realized that there was actually different in a better way for students and teachers. So the work that I was doing with my clients, I started using those tools and strategies with my own students when I was teaching and then when I was a instructional coach, using it with teachers, so I realized this success before even heading up BrainTracks.Hannah Choi 04:39Cool. That's great. Yeah. And how about you, Allison?Allison Larthey 04:42So I'm Allison Larthey. And I have been working for Beyond BookSmart since 2019, and I'm an executive function coach, and I'm also a school training specialist. And my background is elementary education. I had one of those New Jersey unicorn degrees where I could I teach anything in the classroom from preschool up through eighth grade. And I also am a certified school counselor. So I really love bringing all that information together. And that's one of the things that I love about what I learned about Beyond BookSmart was how we kind of marry those two things of, you know, calming the nerves, I work with a lot of clients with anxiety. And so we, you know, we practice with all those skills and how that impacts their education is just so much fun to see the progress, the growth. And, you know, so yeah, I spent a lot of time in elementary education. And I was incorporating these skills before I knew what they were and like, kind of had that name to go along with it. So but I, you know, was able to kind of put that name to it, I'm like, This is so much more impactful. And to really target this is why that worked all those years ago. So it's really fun to see the impact that it has on teachers and our clients. And it's, it's just so much fun to do this work really.Hannah Choi 06:06That's great. I know, I love it. I mean, I don't, I don't work in a classroom, and I don't work with teachers, but I can just relate exactly with what you're talking about, it's seeing the impact of the of your effort is just there's nothing better. Yeah. So the reason I asked you guys to join me today is because someone had commented on the Beyond BookSmart Facebook page about it, wondering about what teachers who have executive function challenges can do to support themselves in the classroom. And, and it just really got me thinking about how, like on the podcast, I always talk about how, you know, like, as adults, we have executive function challenges, whether you have ADHD, or not everyone has an area of executive function that is challenging to them. And so, in a classroom, you're managing, you know, however many different personalities, some of whom have more or less, you know, executive function challenges themselves. Plus, you're managing yourself. And so I thought, who could be some experts that can help me dive into this topic. And so I just knew I had to come to you. So thank you so much. So I want to ask you a lot of our BrainTracks because I love the idea of it. I love the idea of, of teaching as many people as we can about executive function skills. I mean, that's why I'm doing the podcast. But can we first talk about why do executive function skills matter in the classroom?Susan Lohman 07:41Executive function skills are really what allows the students to learn. So it allows them to self regulate, enough to be in the mindset to be able to absorb and manipulate the knowledge of teachers sharing. If they're not able to self regulate, and focus, pay attention, initiate tasks, all these things, they really can't access the knowledge that comes through the teachers instruction. So EF skills allow students really to manage themselves in their lives in school, but also out of school. If they're not able to prioritize tasks, organized belongings and their time to start task to finish tasks, they're not able to perform at their best. And so ultimately, the the E F skills and supporting them is sort of a ticket to them being able to learn and to maximize that potential. It allows them to be more independent leaders of themselves in their job of being a student, but also of themselves outside of school. Students who are receiving executive function skills support through tilt tools and strategies, their parents often see the same changes at home, those routines have habits that they're developing, transfer over out of school to.Hannah Choi 09:07And I imagine that when the kids feel like they have some autonomy and some power over their executive function skills, it gives space to the teachers to be able to teach and be able to access their executive function skills more easily.Allison Larthey 09:30Yeah, I would definitely say that that's true. Because whenever we practice these skills, I mean, I know I feel that way. As a coach, I feel that way when I work with with, you know, in the classroom when I work with teachers, you know, to translate it into the client into their classrooms. Whenever we're practicing these skills, the impact is felt not just by the person on the receiving end, but it's also on on our end. You know, the more I practice with like, you know, Circles of Control. Well, with a client of like letting go of the things outside of our control, then I'm practicing that skill at the same time with them. So, the same is true for those executive function skills, you know, if we really want our students to be organized and where their paperwork is, as we're bringing awareness to that, and as we're practicing that skill, like, then we as the teacher are also going to benefit from that, because we're paying attention to it. And we're putting into practice, at the same time that we're working on it with the kids. So I really I love that, that the teacher asked that of, you know, how do I help myself in that as well, because I really do think that it's great to recognize those strengths and weaknesses that we have, as human beings, that you know, we all have those strengths, we all have those weaknesses, just like you said. So when we're practicing those skills, and we're just aware of, you know, what this is, this is a challenge for me. So maybe I can bring this into the classroom and practice it with my students. And then we're all benefiting from it. And we're removing that stigma of everybody has to be perfect all the time, which I think we carry sometimes as teachers. And, you know, that's a hard thing to let go.Susan Lohman 11:10When you think about it logically, also, students during the week, they're at a school or in a classroom, more hours, and they're actually home. So if these, these routines, and these habits are occurring at school, they will more easily be able to transfer at home, because they're happening for a greater amount of time. Hannah Choi 11:35Something that you said, Allison made me think about how like, when I coach and I'm working with a client, sometimes if I share my own struggle and say, like, oh, I, you know, I can totally relate to that, or like, this is what I'm doing, to try to, you know, level the playing field in whatever area I'm struggling with. The look of, of surprise, and also relief on my clients faces like, Oh, all right, like, she's my coach, and she feels that way. So I imagine for it's the same thing for kids in the classroom,Allison Larthey 12:10And we're modeling that it's okay to keep learning and growing, and that even as adults, these things may still be challenging. So what do we do about that? And that's, you know, I think that that's really powerful. And that removes the stigma to for some of our students who are struggling with those areas, if we're patient with ourselves. And you know, it's like that, you know, the expression of you can't pour from an empty cup. So if I'm just pouring, pouring, pouring, and I'm never filling mine back up, then then what am I actually pouring out. So when our students are, like, when I when I have patience with myself, I'm gonna have a lot more patience, to, you know, help support my students. But if I'm feeling frustrated, then that may come across, too. That's one of the things we talked about in one of our workshops is those mirror neurons of like, when our students are reflecting back, what we're, what we're putting out there, and then we're reflecting back what they're putting out there. So how do we, you know, kind of balance all of that, but that like patience and grace with ourselves, as the teacher, I think is so important for our students as well.Hannah Choi 13:20Yeah, so how, how, in addition to that, How can teachers incorporate executive function tools and skills into the classroom, so that they are able to reach kids and focus more on instruction and, and help kids have autonomy and, and ownership of their own work that they're doing?Allison Larthey 13:42Yeah, that's where we, when we're working with teachers and schools, we always want to emphasize that we're not trying to add any new, you know, new stuff. There was, there's this one analogy that I heard from a professional development workshop, about a million years ago was probably like, I don't know, 15-20 years ago, maybe, that somebody explained a "constipated curriculum", where we just like shove stuff, and we never take anything out. And, like, do that we are here to take the practices that teachers are already doing the things that they want to focus their attention on, whatever that may be, however big or small, you know, whether it's I just want my students to put their names on their papers, or it's I work you know, we've got this massive final exam and we need our students to be prepared, no matter how big or small the task is. We're just going to take what they're already doing, and helping them to examine it in that executive function light and then adjust the practice to then make it the you know, who's benefiting from this practice. If I take the homework papers home to grade every single night, who benefit hits from that, do my students benefit? Do I benefit? And if that's not the case, then what can I do differently to really help them grow their skills. And so that's, you know, that's really what we like to do is talk about the tool, talk about the strategy, and then allow teachers to break it into their own practice and say, you know, oh, I could see myself doing this here. And, you know, so we're not looking for the, you know, piling on massive things we're looking for, you know, make it efficient,Susan Lohman 15:33Hannah, sometimes too, that just bringing the awareness to a student's behavior, or their lack of behavior to a specific executive function skill, a light bulb goes off. Oh, that's why she does her homework or forgets to turn it in half the time, I could never understand why someone would do all that work, and then not turn it in connecting the dots between behaviors, executive function skills, and then something that we as educators can do just a little bit differently, tweak and twist it a little bit differently, present something slightly different can have a huge impact.Hannah Choi 16:15Yeah, because if you don't, if you haven't had the opportunity to learn, you know, an understanding to learn the connection between executive function, executive dysfunction, and the related behaviors, then how would you know?Susan Lohman 16:32Right? Right, exactly.Allison Larthey 16:35And the benefits, yeah, the benefits of, you know, working on those skills, you free up so much time in your day, when you're not managing those little things. Like, whenever you have that good classroom management, and those, you know, those student independent routines, even from as early as kindergarten, I mean, back in the days when I would substitute teach, you knew the teachers that had that really strong routine. And it just made everything flow so much easier, when you would walk into those classrooms. So then as the teacher, it's easier to have a sick day, to have that day off. And you have that, you know, that benefit is so widespread of you know, it's not just about you know, are they prepared for that test, because, of course, we want them to be prepared for the test. That's why we're there. But we also really want them to leave with those those life skills of, you know, will they pick up a book when they have a free free moment. And, you know, so that classroom management, the student independence, and then the way it, it does free up more time in the classroom, you know, when we aren't having to hear all the arguments over kickball after lunch, and you know, then we have time to dive into math a lot faster. So, you know, we open up that space for the things that the students want to do, that the teacher wants to do. And it just flows so much, so much nicer when you have that, you know, when everybody's feeling good about those practices, and feels like they have that independence.Hannah Choi 18:11Right, and then it takes you takes us back to what we were talking about before, you're able to take better care of yourself, when you have that space to breathe and to not be rushing from one to the next and and trying to shove some behavior management in there and or classroom management in there. And yes, I taught preschool I know it's not the same as as as like K through 12. But I remember that I would really have benefited from a lot of that from just understanding more about, like, I understood the child development, but not the executive function part. Like I never remember learning about that. And how important that really is, Susan Lohman 18:55Hannah, that's that's a really good point of preschool. I was a high school English teacher, but I did sub for a year in a preschool room, which sounds very silly. I really was only qualified because I had my own kids. But looking at that I was at that time, I was a coach with Beyond BookSmart and I remember thinking, I'm seeing the emergence of executive function skills. In these little ones, the four year olds and really supporting them that early makes a difference when they're in first grade or third grade or seventh grade. They're starting small and in starting when they are wanting that autonomy over themselves and turning those routines into habits and have great effects you know, throughout their their school career.Hannah Choi 19:50We're going to be doing an episode on executive functions skill development in younger kids in the next few week so that the Yeah, yeah, I was super excited about that. Yep. So it is really important. And, and I think that you're right. When we start early, when those skills are emerging, it really does make a difference in the long run. Yeah. So, so back to classrooms, what are your go to tools that you would share with any teacher, because you know, it'll impact them positively?Susan Lohman 20:29Yeah, I think I'll start, Hannah, with one that I use myself, I've used it with all of my clients, with my own kids. And that is the the five minute goals and doesn't necessarily have to be five minute. But the thought is to use a timer to make something more manageable, to allow somebody to start on a task, or to complete part of a task to recognize that, Wow, I did all that in just five minutes. It can be used in a variety of ways. If somebody is struggling to get started on a paper, which is so common, setting the timer for five minutes and saying, just even brainstorm, start in the middle of the paper, start with the thing you know, best and just write for five minutes. It can be used that way it can be used, if somebody is not wanting to do something. And they know they have to do it, saying, Okay, we're only going to do it for five minutes and see what we get done with. And then we're going to leave it and come back to it in an hour or whatever. It sets boundaries around something that seems impossible, or something you don't want to do. It's also a way to have students who have struggles with paying attention and focusing five minutes seems so small, that it's not intimidating to them. Oh, I can do that for five minutes. It's just five minutes. Yeah, so that's one that I that I always use always even with myself. I use it.Hannah Choi 22:15Me too. I love that tool. It saved me so many times.Allison Larthey 22:19Oh, absolutely. That's a three way, three way agreement on that one. It's like a favorite go to because you can use it in so many different ways. And I would say one of my favorites, too is probably the the DKDK, The do know, don't know. And this one is so great, because it can again be adaptable to all levels, all, you know, practices, whatever skill it is you're trying to reinforce. And basically you just sorta what do I know? What do I sort of know? And what do I really really not know, like I forgot it even existed kind of don't know. And I love that because you can use it for so many things you can have, you know, your high school students can keep track of that they can use their notes and sort them in a chart to say, Oh, I totally know this. So I really don't have to spend a lot of time reviewing it. I sort of know this, I might get it right on the test, I might not get it right on the test. So I need a little bit more practice. And then the I don't even know what this means I definitely need to talk to my friends or ask my teacher or go to a tutor, or you know, read up on this watch a YouTube video, I need more time. And then you break apart your study methods into more efficient practices of I can spend time on this little bit of time here. And then just a real quick review over here. And I love how you can use that even at the youngest grades of you know, in a preschool room of does everybody know where the scissors go? After we take out the scissors? Do we know where they belong? And we can introduce it and say like, look, we're gonna talk about where the scissors go. So we don't know this yet, then we explain it. And we're now we sort of know it. But can we put it into practice. And then as your students start to build that routine, then they say like, and then you're like, wow, everybody knows where the scissors go, we're all the way over here, we can move on to a new goal now. And just the way that you can break that apart to be, you know, so complex, but also so simple. Is is just I love, you know, that kind of a tool. And then I have a great story with a fourth grader who I was coaching, one on one coaching. And I found out after months of us working together that he would go into school the next day and tell his teacher, the practices that we would talk about during our sessions. And DK DK was one of their favorites, his and his teachers. And I just had to jump in. I was like I didn't even know you were talking about this, but you could tell that it mattered to him and then he was like, Oh, my teacher uses this all the time now. And so it'sHannah Choi 25:01just great. He was your first he was your first brain tracks, andAllison Larthey 25:05he didn't even know.Hannah Choi 25:08Yes, spreading theAllison Larthey 25:09word of like he really did just like, take it into the classroom, which was so fun, because he got to be the owner of that of like, look at this, like, Yeah, we're gonna do this. Yeah,Hannah Choi 25:18that's so great. I love that.Susan Lohman 25:22I think it's also worth mentioning that any of these tools collectively using them as a class makes them more powerful. Even the even the teachers using them in the moment, it makes it a community effort, rather than something that I'm giving you, the students to do. I had a when I was a instructional coach, I had a teacher that wrote all the papers alongside with the students. So this was a middle school class. And she wanted to show them that she modeled for them, but she also showed them the writing process. By joining them showing her paper, she joined in just like another student. And I think there's some really great value in that with all of these tools, using them collectively together.Hannah Choi 26:10And it also, it also make sure that anyone who likes, okay, so there's going to be some students in the classroom that really, really benefit from it, and really, really need it. And then other kids who could probably get by without it, but when you teach it to everybody, and it's just this is just what we do, then everyone gets to benefit it benefit from it in a way that doesn't feel like isolating for one person or like, Oh, you're different. You're you have ADHD. So you need this. This is something that, yeah, this is something that everybody can benefit from. Well, and thatSusan Lohman 26:51yeah, I love that to Hannah, and even on it on a nother level is teachers in other classrooms or other content areas using the tools as well, students are able to use the tool in one classroom, and maybe go to another and use the same tool and a slightly different way. You know, it brings and it just circle.Hannah Choi 27:13Yeah, and I imagine it just becomes part of the vernacular, we just talk about this, this is just what we do. We all do DK decays, or we all use five minute goals. And when it's consistent, like I mean, we know that in coaching, right? When it's when you're consistent, that's when the magic happens. So the consistency across classrooms, I'm sure it would make a really huge difference.Susan Lohman 27:35Well, and Hannah to even outside of the school, in our brain tracks program, we work with families too, because we do want that language, you want those tools, we want that entire ecosystem that supports the child's learning to be consistently using the language, the tools, the approaches. And so we do work with families and families are the trainings with the families are very well attended, because they they want the knowledge, right, they want to be able to support their child in school, but also out of school.Hannah Choi 28:10And I bet some of the parents find themselves thinking, Oh, this is actually something that would be helpful for me as well, then if they use it, they can then model for their kid at home so severely, kids are getting the reinforcement dma's I love that.Susan Lohman 28:24It's smart goals is one of the tools that we use a lot with families, we encourage them to write them with their children. So everyone's working towards the same goal. It could be something as simple as you know, reading 30 minutes a day that everyone's doing it or it could be around. household things like sorting, doing the laundry, putting it away, but it's goals that the family is collectively working on. So it doesn't again, feel like we're pointing at the student you need this. It's like no, we all need this. So the house, the house works systematically, just like the classroom work systematically.Hannah Choi 29:06Yeah, and then if everybody feels supported, then they're more likely to use the tool because they feel like, Oh, I'm not the only one that's doing this, right.Allison Larthey 29:17And we hear that all the time, from the parent workshops from you know, even when teachers are in the workshops, it's like, Oh, I could use this with my own kids. And you know, and then parents are like, I could use this myself. And you know, that's, that's a fun thing is that they really are universal strategies and tools that we're practicing.Hannah Choi 29:37Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I just as a coach, I have learned so many strategies that I've taught my clients and then that way to us, this is absolutely something that I would benefit from. So yeah, it is such a great way to to learn about ourselves and how we can support ourselves to then be better parents, better teachers, better coaches. So, yeah, I love that. So all this talk about, you know about making this universal support, it makes me think about, I mean, that's kind of why you guys got into brain tracks, right? Like, why, why that the idea of brain tracks came out? Can you explain a little bit about that?Susan Lohman 30:19Sure. So I'm going to just step back to my instructional coaching days, and when I was seeing very similar struggles in a variety of classrooms, a variety of ages, or classrooms, working with my one on one clients, in my mind, I was thinking, Wow, a school program would be so helpful. And I was thinking like, how, how could this work in schools, public, private, online schools, not knowing Michael was thinking the same thing. So, you know, coming together, you know, was the evolution of BrainTracks, but the idea was to take the similar support that our one to one coaching clients receive, and make those accessible and affordable for all students, and all schools and all states, across the US. So allowing, or providing, I should say, providing those strategies, the tools, the insight, the knowledge, the language, all of that to students, through teachers, you know, allows us to make a much greater impact than we already are through our coaching program.Hannah Choi 31:39That's great. I mean, that's a big reason why I wanted to do this podcast was to, you know, be able to teach as many people as I can about executive function skills, and, and that and getting access to, to that does not have to be something that only, you know, some people get to do, and it's ever everyone in the world would benefit from learning about it. And so...Susan Lohman 32:06Absolutely, and when you when you live it, and you love it, and you know that it is so impactful, you do want to share it with everyone, it's like you hold this secret sauce that you do want to share.Hannah Choi 32:20Yeah, I'm going to be doing a presentation at our elementary school about executive function skills. And, and one of the parents, you know, was asking me about it, and when I told her, Well, I just really love it. And I and I want everyone to know what this word executive function means and see how they can benefit from learning. And, and, and she was just so excited, and it felt so good to, to see that the impact, it is so important for people to learn about it. Susan Lohman 32:54When we begin working with teachers, part of our first training around the developing brain, you know, basic overview of how EF skills develop. Part of it is a it's a, it's a self assessment, they can take, it's private, they have the knowledge, but it allows them to recognize what the executive function skills are and what they look like, in life. And they will be able to see where they're really strong and where they might struggle. That way they can look in their classroom, they can look at their students and make a connection through themselvesHannah Choi 33:35Yeah, when you are able to learn about it yourself. And then you can bring that knowledge and understanding to your children or your classroom or whatever. So when you work with teachers, how do you? Like? How, how do you? How do teachers see their own executive function skills? Are they confident in areas that they are talking about it? Are they is it something that they're kind of expected to have these perfect executive function skills? Because they're teachers?Susan Lohman 34:11I don't I honestly and Alison, you can feel free to chime in. I honestly don't think so. Because part of our work is to normalize it. So in the education of executive function skills, normalizing that everyone has strengths that they're naturally, really good at, it feels good to be strong in those skills and the ones they struggle at. Or maybe they struggle with certain skills in certain parts of their life. But normalizing that, and you know, also being really transparent that we use these tools right now do we use those with our, our teachers and our clients and our own kids, we use them too. And we use them because they know they really work and they really do help youAllison Larthey 35:01Yeah, and I would say, I think, you know, I think teachers do carry that burden of having to be the perfect at everything situation of, you know, like, I shouldn't have any weaknesses because I have to be everything for everybody. But right, that's one of the hardest things is, whenever I was trying to do things for my students, when I was regulating for them taking notes for them, making, you know, learning for them, it was harder for me as the teacher, because my students weren't benefiting from it, and I was carrying a lot more weight than is, you know, necessary or useful to anybody. So when I did things with my students, alongside them, modeling it, over, you know, supporting them, it was just more authentic, and it was beneficial for, for them. And for me, that I didn't have to carry the weight of being everything for everybody. I could just be me. And then all of the, you know, all the strengths and weaknesses that come with that. And I think that that's important for teachers to know of that, you know, we don't have to do everything for our students, we don't have to make the study guides for them. We don't have to write the notes for them. And we're doing our students disservice when we do that. We want to bring our students in and have them take ownership of the practice of why would I write this word and not this word? Why did that? Why will that help me remember it later? And what do I really have to study? And how do I break down the material that I've learned, and we can do that even from the youngest age with a spelling list of you know, these are my sight words that I have to I have to know how to spell these. So am I aware of that I know how to spell it or that I don't know how to spell it. And if I'm carrying that weight is the teacher, then my students don't take any ownership over that process. So it's good for us to recognize as teachers that we don't have to carry everything on our shoulders all of the time, we can, we can do it with our students and, and that's a huge benefit to them. And to us at the same time, . Susan Lohman 37:26I worked with a teacher and she had the most beautiful relationship with her students. She was teaching sixth grade, and it was her first year in the school. And she was she was doing exactly what Alison just suggested. She said to them, as you know, I'm brand new and your school, you already experts on your school, I'm the expert on ELA, she was an ELA teacher. And so I want us to have a partnership, I'm going to ask you for help, because I don't know everything about your school, you all know what you've been here for years. And you can then ask me for help on writing papers in your reading. And, and it was so beautiful, because she let that go, she let that I have to do everything, I have to carry the burden. And she really had built a very trusting, respectful loving relationship with their students, so that they could work together and support each other, it was just so fabulous. Hannah Choi 38:33I love that. It's so funny because I was I have a terrible memory. So I had to write a little note down. And what I wrote down was asking for help. And that's what I wanted to say is, is the gift that we can give our students and our clients and ourselves is learning how to ask for help. And learning about executive function skills, we don't have to do it all on our own. So like, you know, something like BrainTracks is a way to support ourselves, our executive function skills and our kids without having to like do all the research ourselves without having to also take that on, like, Okay, I want to learn about executive function skills so that I can really support my kids and make my classroom this really, you know, comfortable place to teach and learn. But you don't also have to do that you can reach out to the experts. And, and I think we think of that. So, so speaking of like, what's been the reaction of the teachers in the schools that you've worked with on once they're open to the idea of bringing the BrainTracks teamAllison Larthey 39:43It's been really fun. It's great to be in the workshops and hearing immediately. This is how I'm going to use this. And during one of our parent workshops, a parent said, you know, right away like, Oh, this is what my son was talking about. because we had already done this school workshop with the students, and she was like, that's why he's breathing like this all of a sudden at home, he's like, taking these breaths and, and calming himself down. And she's like, that's what he's been doing. So it's really fun to see that transfer, you know, immediately there's that like excitement about, you know, oh, I know how I'm gonna use this tomorrow.Susan Lohman 40:24That's really cool. Yeah, and I was gonna say, too, I think that wouldn't begin begin working with schools, they recognize the skills are for immediate use, but they're also long term, what we're sharing in the knowledge that we're teaching and training extends way beyond a student's person's life as a student. And I, we worked with the school with their teachers several times, and now I'm working one on one with their instructional coach, and she was, is so excited because the teachers are using the language, they're using the tools, students are becoming more independent. And, you know, classroom struggles are slowly dissipating. And they are just thrilled that you know, us presenting this content in a manageable way in a realistic illogical way that teachers can use it without a heavy lift of changing, really what they're doing, just adjusting it slightly has such great rewards. It just feels really good from being a teacher and being in classrooms, it feels so feels so great for us to see them making such great strides.Hannah Choi 41:44That's wonderful. And I just had that conversation with a client of mine who's in college and, and she struggles with keeping her her room clean. And so we're going to spend some time working on figuring out a system for that. And I said, you know, what is so cool about this, like, we're practicing this skill on your, your room in your college apartment. But I just like when you're at you're like, Nope, I have to, you know, follow this system that I developed, you know, like, 60 years ago with that coach called Hannah. And, and it is it's, it's it's a gift for life. Yeah, absolutely.Susan Lohman 42:22For sure. For sure. And the great, the greatest thing is when you see someone we've worked with sharing that gift with someone else, or teaching someone else, the tools, it's such a great feeling.Hannah Choi 42:35Yep. Yeah. And that goes back to, you know, like what we were talking before about how, how can we help as many people as possible, and that is one way we can is by teaching people and hopefully they'll see the deep, deep and generalizable benefits of doing of doing that of doing that work? And then and then teaching it to someone else? Yeah, great. Anything else you guys would like to add? Anything you're excited about?Allison Larthey 43:10I'm excited about our open office hours for the teachers that we work with. And that's where they can follow up with us and ask those questions of like, you know, we did the workshop, they've tried some things out. And then they get to dive in a little bit deeper and say, This is what's working. This is not working. How do I you know, it's just this and that I'm really, really excited about?Hannah Choi 43:34Yeah, and are they when they access those office hours? Are they accessing them with teachers from other schools as well? Or just their school?Susan Lohman 43:43Hannah, that's a great question. We haven't set up both ways. If a school prefers to be just have their own time set aside, otherwise, their general that any teacher can can pop in and out, or they can pop in and listen and maybe get some information that they hadn't even hadn't even considered. So something that's really cool. Yeah, something I'm really excited about is our online training modules are up and running and ready to go. They are we're really created to accommodate schools, very tight schedules. So the trainings that we present live on Zoom are also can be taken by teachers on an LMS on a platform, which is so exciting. I'm very excited about that.Hannah Choi 44:37So they can do it at their own pace. Susan Lohman 44:39They can do it at their own pace, they can use it go back and review they can use it for if they want to take part of the trainings via zoom with us and they want to take the other part. So it really allows flexibility. The I would say the one of the challenges with working with schools. It's It's not the funding, it's not the the actual executive function training. It actually is working it into the calendar, the school calendars if they're tight. And that time is allocated about a year out. So the online modules give some flexibility with that.Hannah Choi 45:20And then are teachers able to earn continuing education credits from that as well?Susan Lohman 45:26Yep, absolutely. So that's another huge win. Yes.Hannah Choi 45:30That's great. I love it. And I love that name brain tracks, such a great name, your idea of like laying down these, like, the neural network and the train going through your brain. I love it. That's how it works. Very cool. Well, I was very lucky. I got to I got to talk with Michael Delman are the CEO and founder of beyond booksmart. back last year, and he told me a little bit about about it, and at the time, it hadn't been named. And so it's, it's pretty cool to see it, to see Yeah, really come to fruition. And to really see that you for you guys to really start to see the benefit of of all the work. Yeah, for sure. Congratulations.Susan Lohman 46:14Thank you, Hannah. Thank you so much.Hannah Choi 46:16Yeah. It's so fun to talk about this. Yeah, I'm so glad you guys were able to join me. It's, it's, it's a it's wonderful to hear that more people are getting access to the stuff that we know, is life changing? And could you share with our listeners where they can find out more?Susan Lohman 46:36Absolutely. So they can go to braintracks.com and log into our website, all kinds of great information there. There's also information that they can download and take to their school leaders if they want to share our information. If they have specific questions, they can reserve a time on our calendar directly from the website, or they can email us at info at brain tracks.com.Hannah Choi 47:05I love how accessible the website is it's so easy to read. And it's really easy on the great website. And it's packed full of information. And I also love how, how open and available you are for anyone to find out more information. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. It was really great to talk to you guys.Susan Lohman 47:29Thanks. Thank you so much, Hannah. Our pleasure.Hannah Choi 47:33And that is our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation about executive function skills for teachers and kids. If you're curious about any of the tools we talked about today, check out the show notes for some more information. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share this episode with the teachers in your life. I hope they find something in it that makes their teaching experience even more rewarding. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can help us out by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Although each and every Executive Function skill is essential for success in today's world, one that's too often-overlooked (if not forgotten entirely) is cognitive flexibility. Whether you've heard about this skill or not, cognitive flexibility is critical for adapting to difficult situations and just overall feeling like we have control over our lives. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode, so here we are! I'm going to show you why it's so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own and of the kids in our lives. If you're dying for more information about this after you're done listening, check out the show notes below:Learn More About Cognitive FlexibilityDemystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscienceFlexible Thinking Problems in Kids | UnderstoodKids Use Flexible Thinking to Learn | Executive Functioning Skills | UnderstoodImprove your Cognitive Flexibility SkillsWhat is Flexible Thinking? How to Become a Flexible ThinkerCircle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in ActionThe Importance of Taking the Perspective of OthersMeditation, mindfulness and cognitive flexibility3 Ways to Improve Your Cognitive FlexibilityCognitive Flexibility Resources from the Beyond BookSmart Blog2 Executive Function Skills to Help Parents Beat Back to School StressGrit + Executive Function skills = Academic SuccessContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Have you heard of cognitive flexibility? Hannah's Daughter 00:02Oh, yeah.Hannah Choi 00:03Why?? Hannah's Daughter 00:04Every day! Cuz I have you as a mom!Hannah Choi 00:08So what's cognitive flexibility?Hannah's Daughter 00:09It's when you have to change the way you're thinking to get something to work.Hannah Choi 00:14Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. As you may have gathered from what you just heard, I'm tackling the topic of cognitive flexibility, or flexible thinking in today's episode. That was my daughter, giving you a little insight into what it's like having an executive function coach for a mom. In Episode 19, Dr. Lisa Shulman, and I talked about the impact of grief and emotional trauma on our executive functioning. And she and I agreed that the often overlooked executive function skill of cognitive flexibility is critical for feeling like we have control over our lives and being successful in making positive changes for ourselves. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode. So here we are, I'm going to show you why it's so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own, and of the kids in our lives. If you're dying for more information about this, after you're done listening, check out the show notes. Hannah Choi 00:17All right, so let's get into this. What is this cognitive flexibility? It is the ability of your brain to switch from one task to another, one situation to another, and to be able to think about things in a new way, by switching from one set of ideas to another. Being able to think flexibly comes in handy in many, many aspects of our daily lives. You heard my daughter say that it can be used to help you problem solve. And here are some other ways we might use it. Okay, so you know, when you find out there's a new and pretty major update to an app you've always used, you now need to use a different set of steps to complete the same task as before. That's cognitive flexibility. If you are a kindergarten teacher, and you're talking with your students about kindergarten, new things, and then your school principal comes into the classroom, you use cognitive flexibility to talk with the principal in a different way than you are just talking with your students. If the way that you studied in high school, or kept track of your homework assignments does not seem to be working as well in college, you'll need to use cognitive flexibility to figure out a new system. And one more because I'm not kidding, cognitive flexibility really does come in handy in all aspects of our lives. Okay, so you're sitting at the dinner table for Thanksgiving and your uncle who has completely opposite political views than you is praising a politician you dislike, Being able to defend and explain your point of view, while also seeing and at least trying to understand how he could believe what he believes, that requires cognitive flexibility. And some patience. My son, who plays the violin in a fifth grade townwide orchestra shared how he used cognitive flexibility the other day. Hannah Choi 03:28Can you think of an example of how you use cognitive flexibility today?Hannah's Son 03:33Well, today after school, I had orchestra practice, when I had realized that my music which is in my backpack, we had dropped it off at home, so I didn't have my music. So I was like, oh, no, I don't have my music. But then I realized that I could easily use my stand partners music, and everything would be okay.Hannah Choi 03:53Yeah, so your flexible thinking cognitive flexibility helps you relax and realize it's gonna be fine. Hannah's Son 03:58Yeah. Hannah Choi 03:59Great. I'm so glad that you thought of that. Did you feel better after you thought of it? Hannah's Son 04:03Yeah. Hannah Choi 04:04Oh, good. Okay, so we can see that cognitive flexibility is helpful in our day to day lives. But are there long-term benefits to being cognitively flexible? Studies have found that greater cognitive flexibility is associated with favorable outcomes throughout our lives, such as better reading abilities and childhood, higher resilience to negative life events and stress in adulthood, higher levels of creativity in adulthood, and better quality of life in older individuals. Hannah Choi 04:37Cognitive flexibility does not work on its own. It happens in our brains with the help of some other partner ie if skills, attention, we need to pay attention to what we're doing and also notice what has changed what you were doing before, what you need to do now and how they're different. Working memory, we need to remember the new rules or the new actions that have been created for whatever task needs to be completed. And this could be in school, at work or in our homes. Self-regulation, we need to be able to inhibit or stop doing what we used to do, and now do the new thing. And also being able to regulate our emotions when we're switching to a new way is helpful. Planning and prioritizing skills can help too, we can use them to figure out the best order of the new steps that we'll have to take and see the value in prioritizing the new way of doing things over the old way. And our good old friend metacognition plays a big part in it to being able to understand our own thinking can really help us change it. Cognitive flexibility becomes largely mature by the age of 10. But these skills continue to improve throughout adolescence and into adulthood. And like all the other executive function skills, they reached their peak between the ages of 21 and 30. But as we know, everyone varies and where their strengths and challenges are. Hannah Choi 06:06We hear idioms and phrases in everyday language that reference cognitive flexibility. People may say they used mental gymnastics to figure something out, or that they need to wrap their head around something. We also hear references to the idea of cognitive inflexibility or rigid thinking. The idea is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks and describing someone as stuck in the mud. You might be familiar with this rigid thinking as showing up as stubbornness or strong willpower, no anybody like that. If you or your child struggle with cognitive flexibility, you might see or experience things like having trouble understanding others perspectives, arguing the same point over and over, getting anxious when plans change, struggling to take on new and more complicated tasks, or maybe having trouble switching from one activity to another, or getting upset when others don't follow the rules. At times, even as adults we struggle with thinking flexibly. And this doesn't mean that we haven't matured into our fully flexible prefrontal cortexes. Sometimes we just don't want to be flexible, sometimes it feels easier to keep things as they were, because it requires effort, a new way of thinking, changing the way we've done something or admitting that maybe the way that we've done something is not necessarily the best for us, or the situation. It requires us to use all those related EF skills that I mentioned earlier. And this is a lot of work. And it also requires some level of risk taking. If we take the risk of thinking about doing something another way, we might accidentally come up with a new idea that could possibly work, which we'll then have to try to see if it does. And for some people trying new things. And taking those risks thinking differently, can be a little uncomfortable. I notice for me sometimes, especially when I think it's going to be hard. Hannah Choi 08:03One thing that can make it a little easier is having someone along for the ride. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for you, I suggest finding someone who can support you, meeting you exactly where you are, I believe it can really, really helped to make those uncomfortable new decisions a little easier. And sometimes give you that gentle push, you need to get out of your own way. This person could be a friend, a colleague, a teacher, a sibling, or parent, or an executive function coach or a life coach. We can ask for advice or hear shared experiences, run our new ideas by them or brainstorm some when we're having trouble thinking of any. We can also ask them to provide feedback and some accountability. This makes me think about something that my former client Andrew shared with me, you might remember him from our ADHD Awareness Month episode,Hannah's Son 08:53What you said about having somebody on your side, the value of that in and of itself cannot be overstated. That was one of the most meaningful parts of coaching was just knowing that I could show up as I am. And you met me exactly where I was. There was no expectation that I was supposed to be anything other than what I was at that moment in time. And we were going to meet there. And then we were going to figure out where we wanted to go. And then we would make some plans to get there.Hannah Choi 09:30So basically, I'm saying that making positive changes to our habits and in our lives often is hard. So having some confidence to do this, to take these risks can really help. In order to find that confidence. We must find things that truly work for us. To find these things. We must be able to use our cognitive flexibility access it to imagine that things can even be done differently than we're currently doing them. And we don't have to do this hard work alone. Let's all make sure we've got got someone to support us. Hannah Choi 10:01In addition to making changes to how we do things, cognitive flexibility can help us in other major areas of our lives. It helps with resolving conflict by helping us be able to see other people's perspectives, remember the uncle at the Thanksgiving table, and figure out how to compromise by imagining a solution to a common goal. This compromised solution may require giving up some of our own desires. But cognitive flexibility helps us to see how even without the desires that we had to sacrifice, we can still reach some kind of agreement. Cognitive flexibility also helps us cope with major changes and stressors by giving us the powerful tool of self-efficacy. Self-efficacy is the ability to feel like we have control over our lives and our choices. When we're in the middle of a major life change, such as a divorce, or the loss of a spouse or a major cross country move, feeling like we have some control makes a huge difference. When thinking flexibly comes easily to you, it can make all of these changes much easier to handle. Dr. Shulman shared some great ideas about this. So if you haven't listened to the conversation yet, highly recommend checking it out. Hannah Choi 11:20Okay, so we now know what cognitive flexibility is, we know what the related EF skills are that support our ability to think flexibly. And we've learned how cognitive flexibility can support us in various aspects of our lives. But how do we get better at it? How can we reinforce the development of those skills in ourselves, and if we have kids in our lives, in them, too. I think the first thing we can do is try to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves. It's much easier to access our own flexible thinking when our own needs have been met as much as possible. And I know that this is asking a lot. We have a billion daily challenges, frustrations, limitations, that can make it difficult for us to put on our own oxygen masks, nevermind the masks of those in our care. But at least thinking about this and attempting to address some or even just one of our own self care needs first can help. Hannah Choi 12:22Also, learning about cognitive flexibility is super important. So yay for you for listening to this episode. It can really help to understand that all people, including ourselves, are at their own personal level of ability to think flexibly and make change. As Andrew said, it truly is helpful having someone supporting you through who understands how you feel about making changes, and how much flexibility you are able to access at the time. By understanding the differences in people's abilities, it is easier to meet them where they are in their readiness to think flexibly. And working on our own cognitive flexibility can help ease friction between ourselves and other people in our lives. Whatever age they are, and whatever relationship we have with them. Even as an EF coach, I find that I still need to practice this. I have a client who's a freshman in college, and I was having trouble understanding why he did not want to put specific times to study on his calendar. When I asked him to explain his thinking to me, he shared that he's learned that if he does schedule it, and then let it slide even just once. It's like a slippery slope, and then he'll start letting the other things slide too. For me, this is not the way I work. I love scheduling work time, I had to think flexibly to understand his perspective. This kind of stuff happens all the time with my own kids too. But by having that conversation, figuring out the difference and thinking and working together to understand each other's perspectives, it can make a big difference. And in and also reduce some of that friction and frustration that we feel when we butt heads with our kids. You might argue back that my client should use cognitive flexibility to try out my way of scheduling his study times. But he knows himself, he knows that it won't work. So I needed to give him the autonomy and the space to make that decision to do it his way. If he did not know himself so well and just didn't want to try it. I might have encouraged him to at least just try it once and see how it felt. But ultimately, it would be up to him. His own flexible thinking will develop on his own timeline. Hannah Choi 14:38There are a lot of activities and tools that are helpful for practicing flexible thinking. I'll share some here but check out the show notes for more ideas. As we coaches always say to our clients, when you're trying something new, start small. Maybe if you always cook the same few meals, you could try a new recipe. You could try driving it Different way to work or a new route on your morning run. This reminds me of the conversation I had with Rachel Holstein low in Episode 12. We talked about how you can practice mindfulness by doing something in a different way than you usually and automatically do. So you could brush your teeth with your other hand, or dry yourself off with a towel in a different order than you normally do. The practice of mindfulness has been shown in studies to help in many ways, including improving your attention and your ability to think flexibly. Hannah Choi 15:32A tool that I really like to use is called zooming out, or the 30,000 foot view. This tool works by challenging yourself to look at a situation from different perspectives. For example, my daughter was feeling really stressed out by an upcoming math midterm exam. Because she was in it and feeling completely overwhelmed. I tried to support her cognitive flexibility by encouraging her to zoom out to the day of the test and imagine how she'll feel. Then I asked her to consider how she'd feel if she zoomed out even more to the week after the test. And then to this coming summer, and then even more to when she's graduating from high school. This exercise helped her get out of her current state of thinking, and helped her see that yes, in this moment, it feels like everything. But truly, it's just a blip a fraction of her life. Hannah Choi 16:31Another thing that can be helpful for supporting cognitive flexibility is the concept of a growth mindset. A growth mindset is a belief that intelligence and our abilities are not fixed, that we can change, we can learn we can grow as humans, especially when we learn to think flexibly and find out what areas we are strong in and what areas might need some extra support, and what areas maybe we should completely avoid. I may have wanted to be a doctor growing up, but memory and word recall are not my strong points. So being a doctor would probably not have been the best career choice for me. Hannah Choi 17:11There is a great activity that supports the development of cognitive flexibility from Stephen Covey called the Circles of Concern, Influence and Control. Okay, so if you can imagine a target with three concentric circles, the outer circle represents things you are concerned about. The middle circle are the things you have some influence over. And the small center circle represents the things you actually have control over. thinking flexibly here helps you figure out where the various aspects of your life fit into this target. During the lockdowns or the pandemic, you might have placed the spread of COVID 19 as something that concerned you, but you had no true influence or control over it at all. If you worked from home, you would have had some influence over your workspace by setting up a nice desk in a separate area of the house. But you would not have been able to control any potential interruptions completely. Washing your hands frequently. And wearing a mask when you went out for groceries could go in the middle circle as something that you could control. Learning to be flexible in your thinking here can ease some of the anxiety and pressure we may feel when we're trying to control things that we actually only have influence on or perhaps cannot control at all. Hannah Choi 18:38For younger kids, you could play a divergent thinking game, find objects around the house and think of things that the objects could be other than what they truly are. This cup is not a cup. It's a swimming pool for a fairy. This pencil is not a pencil. It's a balance beam for the caterpillar Olympics. And that tree is not a tree. It's a portal to another world.Hannah Choi 19:04And that's our show for today. I hope you are able to find your portal to a new world of possibilities using your newfound or more developed cognitive flexibility skills. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others to learn about executive function skills such as cognitive flexibility. By sharing our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world? To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.Learn More About Dr. SussmanDr. Sussman's Website on TrainingsThe Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use DisordersDr. Sussman's YouTube ChannelThe Ross CenterScreen Use & Executive Function SkillsBeyond BookSmart's collaboration with Dr. SussmanScreenagers by Delaney RustonContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:00Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis. Hannah Choi 00:00I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show. Hannah Choi 00:00Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:18Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.Hannah Choi 02:42Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.Hannah Choi 06:16That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.Hannah Choi 08:14We don't want that to happen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.Hannah Choi 09:43Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49 Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.Hannah Choi 09:52Yeah, right, right. Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.Hannah Choi 10:31Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you knowHannah Choi 11:11Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.Hannah Choi 12:39Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.Hannah Choi 13:48Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.Hannah Choi 16:47Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?Hannah Choi 19:36Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04You were doing low dopamine screen actors,Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.Hannah Choi 24:02Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.Hannah Choi 25:10Yeah, you get half an hour more.Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.Hannah Choi 25:19And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,Hannah Choi 27:24you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?Hannah Choi 27:50Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.Hannah Choi 28:02Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.Hannah Choi 29:14Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.Hannah Choi 31:11Yeah, right, that same action. Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14Like mice. Hannah Choi 31:17We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you knowHannah Choi 31:35No, no.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.Hannah Choi 32:02Bringing us back to gambling!Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.Hannah Choi 32:19This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.Hannah Choi 32:32So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.Hannah Choi 34:14Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.Hannah Choi 35:14Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.Hannah Choi 37:11I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:01that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?Hannah Choi 41:21And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internetHannah Choi 42:47With a natural limitation on theDr. Cliff Sussman 42:49Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.Hannah Choi 43:29Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.Hannah Choi 44:06Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there. Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.Hannah Choi 44:56Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks. Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48Thank you. Bye, bye.Hannah Choi 45:50And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.

On this episode, I'm taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our Executive Functioning. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. Even though grief and emotional trauma are part of being human, they're both really hard to talk about as we all have experienced or will experience some form of each within our lives. However, not only is everyone's reaction to grief different, but everyone's reaction to other people's grief is different, too. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about. Most of all, hopefully finding some answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. After all, things won't be the same after loss, so how can we navigate that? I reached out to Dr. Lisa Shulman who is a neurologist and a professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and Our Brain. Her focus on the brain's reaction to grief and, as you'll hear her explain, emotional trauma, was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa's personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic. Her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more and her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. Show NotesLearn more about Dr. Lisa ShulmanRead Lisa's book Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and our BrainLearn More about Jody LaVoieWatch Hannah's conversation with Jody on our YouTube ChannelResources on Grief, Loss, and EmotionsGrief Board of Directors Template by Jody LaVoieHow to Feel Your Feelings by @emilyonlife (on Instagram)Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscript from Hannah's Conversation with Jody LaVoie (continue scrolling to find the transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman)Hannah Choi 00:00So hi, Jody, thank you so much for joining me on my podcast today.Jody LaVoie 00:27Hi Hannah, thanks for having me. I love talking about this with you.Hannah Choi 00:31Great. So I spoke with Dr. Lisa Shulman earlier in the at the end of last year, and she and I had a great conversation about grief and emotional trauma and how that impacts executive functioning. And I wanted to talk with you because I know that you work with widows who are getting back to...Or maybe you can explain it to me, why don't you explain to me who you work with and how you support them?Jody LaVoie 01:04Yes, no, absolutely. So I am a grief and loss expert. I'm also a widow, myself. I'm a mom, and I've run a business. And I help widows learn to fall in love with their life again. And you brought up an excellent point, Hannah about when when would somebody kind of start being able to feel like they're ready to figure out how to fall in their love with their life again, and it's generally when kind of that overwhelm of grief happens, and you're just trying to check off tasks. And you wake up one day, and you're like, you know, there's got to be more I'm doing it. I'm doing the day to day stuff I'm functioning, but I'm just functioning, how can I find more?Hannah Choi 01:54So at what point would someone reach out for someone, for some support with someone like you?Jody LaVoie 02:28You know, Hannah, it's different for everyone. And I'll give a couple of examples. So when someone receives a terminal diagnosis for their spouse, they start grieving right away, even though they're hopeful. And they're working hard with experimental treatments to, you know, try to not have this person pass away, their grief starts then. So they could come work with me, you know, right. When their spouse dies, I worked with a client even before her spouse had passed away, because she had started grieving a year and a half prior. So for other widows that lose their spouse, suddenly, that's they're in shock. And it takes a little bit of time for them to get to that place of okay, I'm functioning. But I know there's gotta be more.Hannah Choi 03:22Yeah. And after talking with, with Lisa Schulman and learning about how, how loss and emotional trauma impacts our executive functioning, it, it completely makes sense that someone would have might have to wait and not be able to just start to tackle life again, when it has been what has been traumatic and sudden, imagine it. Yes. Do you have to wait? So what are some, what do you recommend to your to the people that you work with? What are some strategies that people can try?Jody LaVoie 04:00You know, and I know we're keeping to executive functioning strategies, which is so important, because obviously, we all need to be able to function our day to day lives and thrive in our day to day lives. And how can we do that better? So the really, the first and foremost thing that we work on is our thoughts, and working on where those thoughts come from. And that doesn't mean that we're ignoring grief. We're pushing the pain away. We're not feeling it just means our thoughts trigger our behaviors, which trigger emotions and it's this endless cycle. And so if you can, there's a couple strategies with your thoughts. One, one, that thought happens if you can pause, just take a breath and actually try to think about, okay, what is this thought really, and where is it coming from and what, what is my action that I'm taking guessing, based on this thought, and what should I be doing differently? So that's one way to do it. And the second thing, there's a series of four questions that I love, there is a coach, an author named Byron Katie, and she helps people really with self-inquiry. And she believes that if you ask yourself these four questions, it, it really promotes thinking and changing. And the first one is ask yourself, if that thought is really true. Is it really true? Second, Can you absolutely know, it's true? Is the second question. Third question. How do you react? And what happens when you believe that thought? And fourth question is, who would you be with out that thought, and that's really releasing and breathing. And, and you as, as the widow and as any person, or now take, taking control of your thought process. And that takes a while. And it takes practice. But just that act of recognizing, so important?Hannah Choi 06:12Yeah, I love that. I remember, one strategy that I learned for grief, that that that I that really helped me was to recognize that you're feeling it and then label the feelings that you're having or label what is happening. Instead of instead of just feeling it also just sort of identify what you're going through, and then and let it happen. And then acknowledge that it happened and sounds like a similar process.Jody LaVoie 06:47Very, very much so and it is so important to label your feelings, feel your feelings. But it's also important to put some parameters around that too, if you are able, I mean, not everybody is able. Everybody is in a different stage. But if you are in the process of okay, feeling sad, it is okay to acknowledge that I'm feeling sad, and I'm missing my person. But I'm going to sit in it for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then I'm going to get off the couch or out of my bed and go do something to move to a different place. So that's, that's, that's helpful as well.Hannah Choi 07:28Yeah. And setting parameters. And that, that requires a lot of a lot of perseverance and, and discipline, but but also, then, I imagine opens up a lot of opportunities for you once you're able to set those parameters.Jody LaVoie 07:45Absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 07:47What's something else that you recommend for your?Jody LaVoie 07:51Well as a widow, and I know with Dr. Shulman, you talked a lot about that early stage grief, it's hard to just get stuff done. And all of a sudden, you've have an overwhelming amount of tasks that were just dumped on your plate, not only going through, you know all the paperwork and all of the different things that one must do after you lose a spouse, but that spouse helped around the house help do the errands, help take care of the kids, you now are doing that all on your own. So pick one thing and create a SMART goal around it. Because it's one thing to say, Okay, I am going to get to the gym five days this week. Great. Did you put it on the calendar? Do you know exactly what you're going to do with your what is your outcome you want to have until you actually take action? And put it on your calendar? Like we're not going to happen?Hannah Choi 08:48Yeah, yeah, we love those smart goals at Beyond BookSmart. And we use, we use them a lot. And I know that they really help make those goals more meaningful. So it makes sense that that that would be a really useful, useful strategy to use. Yeah. That's great. Glad to hear you use those as well.Jody LaVoie 09:07Absolutely.Hannah Choi 09:08Yeah. Do you have any other tips?Jody LaVoie 09:12You know, I do. And I love this one. And this helped me a lot. It's creating, I call it your Widow Board of Directors. And I was running a business. So therefore this board of directors concept really, really resonates with me, but these are your people that have your back. These are your people that are going to help you. This is your best friend who's going to run cover for you. If you're if you're like going out today's not a great day. And I need help getting my kids to soccer. You can reach out to this one person and have them get it done. You can have another person that's helping you with your business decisions or your career decisions or just work decisions in general because I As a grieving person, we're not firing on all cylinders, we've got a lot in our brain, and that can cause distractions. But yet, we still want to exceed at our jobs, we still want to get those things done, but have your person that you can call on to help with with that. So designate people to be active in various aspects of your life and, and tell them, here's what I need from you, I need you to check in on me weekly, or I NEED you, but be specific about their role, and the action they need to take.Hannah Choi 10:36And I imagine that can be a difficult thing for people to do. I know, I know, a lot of the clients that I work with, and just people that I've talked to in my life have do have a hard time asking for help. And that's a time when you really need to be able to do that. Do you have any ideas for people who struggle asking for help?Jody LaVoie 10:54You know, I think it's about giving yourself permission. So many of us are perfectionist out there. And you know, prior to losing our spouses, we can keep it all together, and then it all falls apart. And then one can feel embarrassed, shame. Why can't I do all of this? No, no, no, no, no, I'm giving you permission to not be perfect. And to ask for help you need it. And people want to genuinely help you and do things for you.Hannah Choi 11:29Yeah, I love that. And but without asking, they might be afraid. They might not know how to help. So if you're able to ask, then you're gonna, then they're gonna be so happy to help.Jody LaVoie 11:39It's so true. And I coach people that are trying to support grieving people. Just that, be specific, in your ask, because it's a people come to Grievers and say, How can I help and, you know, I, the needs are vast. But to be very specific of, I'd like to bring you dinner this week is Wednesday, or Thursday better. But just be specific, it's helpful.Hannah Choi 12:06 And I love that. That's great. What else you got?Jody LaVoie 12:11You know, it's very easy to forget about yourself, especially as women, we take care of everyone else first. And when we're grieving, our kids are grieving. The other people, relatives, family members are grieving. It's okay to take care of yourself. And you need to because you can't support other people, if you're not putting your oxygen mask on first. And so step one with that is just move your body, whatever that looks like for you. If you can get outside and take a walk, great. Even if you live someplace cold bundle up, just seeing sunlight and breathing in fresh air. So important starts about five minutes, just walk around the block.Hannah Choi 13:03I love that. That's great.Jody LaVoie 13:07Yeah, and one more thing that I do, Hannah. And I know Dr. Shulman talked about this a lot about journaling. And the importance of journaling, which I do what I've also tied into my journaling, gratitude. And so every day, when I get up, my very first thing after I brush my teeth is I, I journal for the day. And I probably spend 5 - 10 minutes, really just writing my thoughts. But at the end of that day's entry, I do two things. One, I write something that I'm really proud of that I did the day before, because celebrating your wins, even the small wins, yeah, are so important. It's so easy. And our brains automatically go to the negative. And there's data that that shows this, Hannah, we have about 60,000 thoughts a day. 80% of them are negative eight, zero. That's crazy. So celebrating a win is important. And then the other thing I put on my journal are three things that I'm grateful for, and getting yourself back to gratitude. Especially when you're you're sad, and you're grieving and you're, you have all of this emotion, but to focus on what is good. And it really helps your brain move to a different space.Hannah Choi 14:35I do the same thing, although I don't do what I'm proud of. And I love that I think we're gonna add that into my journaling. But I do gratitude and I actually just finished up I do it in a line a day journal, one of those like small just has a small entry for every day. And I just finished my fifth year of doing it. Thanks. And I was looking back over I was just reading out loud, my sister and brother in law were over recently and I was reading through it just to see what, you know, what I've been thankful for over the years. And during the pandemic, I noticed that I was many, many days, I was just thankful for sunshine. And, and, and I just looking back on that, I think wow, like, even in those dark days of so challenging for everybody, I was still forced myself to find something that I was thankful for. And some days it was just sunshine. But it's, it's it is possible to find something to be grateful for every day. So true.Jody LaVoie 15:35And I live in gloomy Chicago, and it's winter and the sun is out today. And yeah, just like brought a smile to my face. And that is certainly picked up my spirits. Hannah Choi 15:48Yeah, good. Great. Do you have anything else you'd like to add before we finish?Jody LaVoie 15:52You know, those are going to be my top five. I don't want to give people too many to, you know, chunk off. So if you can tackle those five listeners out there, you will be well on your way to success. Hannah Choi 16:05Yeah, that's great. And where can people find you if they're interested in learning more?Jody LaVoie 16:10Yeah, so I am very active on LinkedIn, under my business Widows in the Workplace. I have an Instagram Widows in the Workplace. And I certainly have a website widows in the workplace.com. Hannah Choi 16:26That's great. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jodi, it's been really interesting talking with you and I really appreciate everything you shared.Jody LaVoie 16:35Thanks, Hannah. I've I've enjoyed our time together as well.Transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa ShulmanHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19Today I'm taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our executive functioning. I really struggled to write the intro for this episode, I kept finding myself putting it off. And if you've listened to my procrastination episode, you'll know that the same thing happened with that one. So I did some reflection to figure out why. And I realized it's because of the same reason. I'm afraid I won't get it right. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. And even though they're part of being human, we have all experienced or will experience some form of it in our lives. And everyone experiences it differently. Everyone's reaction to grief is different. Everyone's reaction to other people's grief is different. It's a big part of these beautiful and difficult lives we're living, and yet it is still so hard to talk about. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about, and maybe finding answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. Things won't be the same after loss. So how can we navigate that? Hannah Choi 01:37I reached out to Dr. Lisa Schulman who is a neurologist and a Professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called before and after loss, a neurologist perspective on loss, grief and our brain. Her focus on the brain's reaction to grief, and as you'll hear her explain, emotional trauma was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa's personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic, her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more. And her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did, and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. When you're done listening, please check out the show notes for more resources, including a link to Dr. Shulman's book, which I highly recommend reading and a conversation I had with Jody LaVoie, a grief coach who supports widows who are returning to work after loss. Okay, let's dive in and learn about grief, emotional trauma and the brain. Hannah Choi 02:56Hi, Lisa, thank you for joining me, could you introduce yourself to our listeners for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:02Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, Hannah, thank you for inviting me. I'm a neurologist and author. I'm a Professor of Neurology at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. And I got involved in the area of emotional trauma, traumatic loss and grief through my own personal experiences. And it really has ended up being something very important to me, close to my heart. And I really looking forward to discussing it with you today.Hannah Choi 03:42Are you comfortable sharing your personal experience and telling your story about how you got to where you are today?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:50Yeah, certainly. You know, I, I mean, I really, I think the place to start is that, you know, I I'm a sub specialist in neurology, I'm what's known as a movement disorder specialist. And most of the patients that I see have Parkinson's disease or Parkinson's related disorders, various forms of what we call neuro degenerative disorders. And I've been doing this for about 30 years now. And so, you know, I have followed many, many, many people through serious illness, you know, to points where they are quite disabled and of life. And, you know, and for those reasons, you know, I thought to myself when I confronted serious illness in my life when my husband was diagnosed with cancer, I thought that I was more prepared than the average person as somebody who counseled others going through hard times. I should vivid, my husband Bill is a neurologist too, and we work closely together. And I think that in over the experience of his illness and his decline and ultimately, his death, you know, I was taken aback or unprepared for the fact that I, you know, like so many things in life that you don't know really know what it is until you're in somebody's shoes. And, and the fact of the matter was that when he was seemingly suddenly gone, I was ill prepared, and was had a really tough time of it. As for a while I floundered, you know, because I hadn't expected to feel the way I felt all of the new precautions. And at some point, many months, many months later, well, actually, I started spontaneously to write a journal and just to get my feelings on a paper piece of paper, although I'd never done anything like that before. And then many months later, I made the connection, which wasn't as obvious as it seems to me now, between my own experience, and a personal experience I was having of loss, and my professional world, of understanding how the brain works, and the brain responds. Which really, you know, it's like one of these things where you think afterwards, you know, I, you know, because I, in my, I'm a researcher, I not only see patients, but I do research, and I write, manuscripts, and a lot of the papers I've published are about the behavioral responses, adjustment, quality of life, managing difficulty in one's life. And yeah, it took me months to, you know, Link, obvious similarities between what I was going through in my professional life. And that ultimately led me to quite a bit of research into brain function, about how the brain responds to emotional trauma and loss. And ultimately, I began to find that is a path forward for me. And then I wrote the book based on that information.Hannah Choi 07:46Yeah, I really, I really, really, really enjoyed your book, I, I be what you said just a little bit ago about you feeling like you were prepared. My personal interest in learning about grief and, and emotional trauma, and the impact on the brain comes from experience that I had in my family, and with some friends, I had a period of five years in a row, where we had some pretty traumatic and unexpected losses. And, and I now looking back on it, I feel like when that happens, again, because it is a part of life, I want to be more prepared. And that is my that's, that's kind of like the motivator for me. And but it's interesting what you said, like you don't, when it's yourself, and it's you feeling it, it's, I imagine it is harder to make that connection and realize, like, oh, wait a second.Dr. Lisa Shulman 08:50Like one of the one of the things that I often start off with when I'm giving a talk on this topic, is how Psychiatry and Neurology are the same thing. And even though as a neurologist, I will understand the brain function that governs our behavior, our mental health, our personality. But when even even though I understand that, I can't wrap my arms around it to be honest, it's like something I have to sort of intellectualize because you the texture of our lives, our experiences are so rich, and so compelling, that to think that this is related to neurotransmitters and neurons, nerve cells, you know, it boggles the mind. Yeah, even for a neurologist who studies it.Hannah Choi 09:55Yeah, and I am, I am far from that and but the little that I do know about the brain, it both helps to understand, okay, this is my brain, but then the same time, like what? It doesn't feel like it's just my brain? Yeah. So when we first when we first communicated, we and you mentioned it a little bit, just just a bit ago, I had asked to talk with you about grief and the connection between the brain and executive function skills. And you suggested that we also include emotional trauma. And I was just wondering if you could explain that in diseases? Are they different from each other? Are they the same? Does the brain react differently?Dr. Lisa Shulman 10:45Yeah, you know, I'm gonna challenge you even in the way you asked that question us, from the conventional physician, that grief has this special position and emotional trauma is different, and that I'm trying to push them together. But I would push back and say that, that is a notion about grief, having a unique position in the spectrum of emotional trauma, but that the more you understand about the way the brain behaves, what parts of the brain respond to serious traumatic loss of all types. The more you see that grief is just in the spectrum of emotional trauma, right. And that, you know, we have one of the most intriguing parts and these things will be eternally intriguing to me, is that how different we all are, in terms of the impact of different events in our lives, and you cannot pinpoint or a map, you can't predict what for one person will be emotionally traumatic, and what will not. We certainly all know people who have had significant, say, losses of loved ones in their life, but they don't go through a terrible period, not everybody does. And by the same token, we see people who suffer other losses in their life, it may be a loss of a job, it could be a breakup with some relationship, it could be the loss of a pet, it could be a, you know, a physical assault, you could go on and on. Certainly COVID, the pandemic has been a source of trauma, emotional trauma and loss in our lives. So you can't pinpoint it. And so I would just say that for every individual, imagine a spectrum or range where you have a unique range of for you what is most would be the greatest and most of your causes of emotional trauma. And that is, I think, the, for me, it's the most appropriate and accurate way to think about it. You know, I think the most important thing is to think of this is a very important point I'd like to leave with your listeners, which is that the brain is agnostic to the type of trauma, the isn't there isn't any unique area of the brain to respond to one of those forms of emotional trauma that I mentioned or another. You know, it might be that you're planning on going to graduate school, and you really, like totally crash when you're taking a test, you need it to ace and that for you is you walk out in a state of utter shock, how it's going to affect your life that you know for you is triggering the same responses as the person in fact, who might find themselves sadly, losing a loved one, it's just a matter of severity for each individual. So it's not the cause it's not the triggering event or the type of event. It's the individual personal meaning of the event that ends up triggering the same cascade of responses.Hannah Choi 14:39And, and that the actual response within the brain. It's like not necess not necessarily there, like how it looks, how it looks externally but what's going on inside of their brain. Is that right? Dr. Lisa Shulman 14:52Right. Right. Exactly. So you know all the consequences, the symptoms, the consequences, this equality It all would be the same based on the severity of the loss.Hannah Choi 15:05Yeah, you know, I was I lost my dog about four years ago. And, and that hit me harder way harder than I ever thought it would. And I found myself sometimes thinking, Oh, this is horrible, just like judging myself, like, you shouldn't, you know, she was just a dog. You know, it's but, but what you're seeing now is making me feel a lot better. I mean, and I caught myself when I said that I, you know, I said, No, she wasn't the, because if experience for me if that loss was so great, so it must have been more than she was just a dog. So it's good to hear that, that, that,Dr. Lisa Shulman 15:47You know, I would I thought a lot and done, you know, reading about why certain things are so personally, individually emotionally traumatic, and that one cannot predict that necessarily, you know, I, I believe that there is it relates to the topic of identity and the story that we have constructed for ourselves about our lives about where we fit in the world. What makes sense to us, the infrastructure of how we get up every day interact with people do our jobs are potentially a partner or parent, all the roles we take, we have a conception, the conceptual framework, and that is related to our identity. And when some piece of that is lost, or injured or at risk, that is jumping to the idea of brain function here perceived by the brain, as an actual assault on or threat to our survival. And this is another very key concept here. And it's a matter of it may sound jarring, and I think the first time I saw that, in the literature, I I thought, wow, you know, could that possibly be? But you have to think of this from an evolutionary standpoint. And from an evolutionary standpoint, I mean, this is how our brain ended up being wired, based on evolution. And our and our brains are all incredibly similar to each other, actually, we think of ourselves as individuals, but who we have the same hardwiring. So the fact is that over evolution, we all know that we were being changed by what would allow enable us to survive. And those who were poorly prepared and unable to move to vulnerable would not have survived with evolutionarily. So we the most hardwired, the most high priority, from the perspective of your brain, not your mind your brand, yes, is keeping us alive, keeping us functional, right. And that is what ends up ruling the day in terms of this of the brain to be triggered by some loss. If it's perceived as something that could be a threat to our function to our survival, then, you know, potentially even all hell could break loose as the brain kicks in with all sorts of reflexes to help us go through bad times.Hannah Choi 19:17Yeah, that's so interesting. So, I was just thinking, Oh, maybe I come from a long line of the first people who domesticated dogs. That's why I felt it so strongly. So how, how, how does the brain react to emotional trauma. What's going on in there? And, and then I don't know if you can bring anything in about executive function since that's my particular interest. But I mean, executive functioning affects all areas of our lives. So it's kind of in just naturally part of that I'm, I'm sure.19:59Yeah, well, I can certainly bring that in. So I think that when we think about how the brain reacts to emotional trauma, it's helpful to organize it from the standpoint of acute responses and chronic responses. And how acute our responses are the immediate short term responses to things in our lives in our environment to triggers. And the there are chronic effects of these acute accumulation of acute responses over and over. You know, from the standpoint of the acute responses, it's easy, because everybody understands, I think, the basic concept of fight or flight. And, you know, if we are in the crosshairs of a bear, a gun, a car, you know, the same response again, you know, there isn't a different response for a bear or the car, it is the same response, which is a survival response of fight or flight. And it is a massive brain and systemic response. That immediately jolts our mind to be vigilant and alert, as alert as we possibly can be blocks out anything extraneous, gets our heart, our lungs, our muscles, prepared to run, to fight to breathe hard, and so forth, we are totally focused on you know, somehow surviving. So that is the acute response. And the fact is that after, we want to talk about grief itself, after the loss of a loved one, our world is filled with daily triggers, that each time we are exposed to these things, sometimes it's somewhat anticipated, but sometimes it is absolutely not. We find ourselves going through that over and over and over. Now, the chronic effects of it are very interesting because it's related to something called neuroplasticity, which is not as complicated as it may sound. Because neuroplasticity is simply that the brain is continually rewiring itself, based on our experiences. You know, right at this moment, we've met each other, we're chatting together, we're going to remember this, and our brain is establishing new, great connections for us to go back to in the future. And that's neuroplasticity. So, but the neuroplastic changes that occur, based on what I just talked about the continual or petitive triggering of the alarm of trouble for the fight or flight mechanism results in the part of the brain that colloquially is called the fear center, but from a neurologic standpoint is called the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system. So the fear center is constantly being strengthened while the cortical functions which are like all of our thinking, our memory, our executive functions, our judgment, all that is being weakened. And it's very important because actually, there are scientific many, many studies, this is not speculation, it shows that the brain pathways that connect the fear center to the our intellect, are being weakened. Because the fear center is being strengthened, the effects of the judgment are being weakened, we can also see that the volume of the different parts of the brain are being altered, in that the fear center is being gets larger, literally. While the the parts of the brain we need to calm ourselves that down and why some compose ourselves are being getting smaller. And this also affects on the brain activity between the two, which is very unhealthy. Everything we do in life is some interaction between the emotional side of the brain which is very primitive, right, you know, and the cerebral cortex, which is our advanced friend, so you know, like, I don't know about you, but I'm not too crazy about roaches or spiders. You know, I like I can if I see a bad spider or roach, I could get triggered. I don't want you eat us Oh, but you know, but then like, you know, your seat of wisdom, like kicks in and goes, you know, I'm living alone now. And I don't have anybody to go. And then I just say, you know, I calm down if you're just gonna have to deal with this, because not gonna get into bed with a spider in my room, you know? So, you know, you can see that interplay between the fear center and the intellect. Yeah, it has to be a healthy balance, right. And unfortunately, based on the set of circumstances, I've described, it imbalance occurs, and you end up being, you know, like, this raw, primitive brain that's autonomously setting off the alarm. And then you know, and then what do we see amongst the people who are going through emotional trauma and or having difficulties? You know, we hear them describe feelings of anxiety, difficulty with their sleep. Flashbacks. And from your perspective, the issues of executive function are being weakened, because they're the the fear center, the primitive responses of fear are predominating.Hannah Choi 26:35Yeah, and I was I was, I remembered, in part of your book, you said that one of the strongest predictors for I'm not sure how to describe it, but for feeling, for lack of better words, feeling like, Okay, after emotional trauma is the idea of self-efficacy. And, and I imagine that feeling that cognitive self efficacy comes a lot from being able to access your executive function, and being able to use that that part of your brain.27:15Yeah, I think I'm really glad you brought that up. Because a lot of my love of my research and work has focused on self-efficacy for managing chronic illness. And, you know, in my own crazy journey, figuring out things at some point, it was another kind of like epiphany, where I went, Oh, wow, that's another? Why didn't I ever think about that, you know, this, that grief, or emotional trauma can be seen as a chronic condition? Yeah, a chronic condition, just like the chronic medical conditions I had, you know, been studying for a long time. And so from that standpoint, you're right, what we're seeking is to develop self efficacy to manage this condition, emotional trauma, traumatic loss or grief. And self-efficacy, that phrase may not be common, commonly known to some people, it simply means that you have a level of confidence, or belief in yourself that you can manage your situation. And importantly, I think of it as that you are developing a sense of control over your life. We all you know, we all seek in our daily life, a sense of control, when you don't when you're not feeling a sense of control. It's very distressing. Yeah, very.Hannah Choi 28:48So, so many of the clients and pretty much all of the clients I've ever worked with, and all of my colleagues to it comes up that that after after figuring out what strategies and tools work best for them to support the areas of executive function that challenge them, once they figure that out, and they're able to have some control over that area. They all say they feel more confident. And and that is that self efficacy right there.Dr. Lisa Shulman 29:15Right, you know, the, the kind of the pathway is that one needs to develop basic font of knowledge about your situation, and then develop skills of self management, which it sounds like you're counseling people about, and then by practicing those new skills, that every time you do it, that you start to have increasing confidence and increasing sense of control. So you sort of build on it until you reverse the cycle of feeling helpless.Hannah Choi 29:58So if you have an end unbalance in the fear center like the limbic system is kind of taking over and inhibiting the part of the brain that we're using for executive functions. What are some things that people can do to write that balance? And, and I'm sure, like right after this, that whatever traumatic incident happens, it's really difficult to get out of that. What are some things that people can can try?30:24You know, I think that that was one of the most encouraging parts of what I learned over time, because I realized that it certainly is calming and reassuring to understand the way in which the brain is responding and how it explains your experience that in and of itself is comforting to know that, you know, you're not as many people say, going crazy, that you're not having this, you know, breakdown, so to speak, but that this is a common, we're all in it together. We're all going through it together. And I think that's very reassuring. But the epiphany was when I realized that it leads to obvious interventions, I thought this is this is exciting. You know, it actually I want to start go back for a moment to what I referred to before about neuroplasticity. So what I was describing before, is a spiraling down into bad neuroplasticity, the brain has been rewired in this unhealthy Well, way. And the important part of understanding neuroplastic changes is that we can thoughtfully and deliberately rewire and create connections, brain connections, neuro connections, but those that are healthier to move the needle in reverse good neuroplasticity, you know, neurologists have a cool phrase that we use, that when things fire together, they wire together. I've heard that, yeah, great. And that is actually a great description of neuroplasticity. That, you know, it's nothing more complicated than practice makes perfect. You know, if you, if you sit down to learn a musical instrument, you can can't do a thing if you get on a bicycle for the first time. Forget it, you know, but, you know, you keep on doing it. And you know, Eureka, suddenly you're have a new skill, and oftentimes you never lose it. So what is that, it's things that fire together, wire together. And so we can use that understanding and knowledge to think about how what steps we can take to reverse the process, which is causing everything I said before the fear center to be this crazy alarm in our head. That is domineering our life over time for some of us. So what what can we do? Well, you know, actually, in my book, I just want to mention that, you know, I actually wrote my book with people, for people who are going through very difficult times, and I will never forget how disorganized my thoughts were, during that period of time. So I wrote in the book, what I called three steps, which were to organize a strategy because I felt that I needed it. I personally needed things, you know, spoon fed and so forth at the time. And so I thought, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed by what I'm saying here, and that they have to figure it out. So the three steps that I described in the book was the first one was, and I'll describe the three in a moment. The first one I called subconscious, conscious integration. And the second one is immersion and distraction. The third one is gradually opening the mind to new possibilities. So I'll briefly describe each. Subconscious conscious integration is one way to describe that what I described before that there has been a disconnect between the emotional parts of the brain and the cognitive parts of the brain. And from that standpoint, a lot of the disturbing emotions and memories from a time of trauma It ended up being suppressed in our subconscious. They're not accessible to us. Part of the reason they're not, the main reason they're not accessible to us is because it sets an alarm off every time we even go in that direction. Right? So but it's a big part, it is key to healing, to reconnect with that, because when you have a lot of disturbing stuff in your subconscious, this results in flashbacks, nightmares, or panic attacks. Well, that. So that's what that first step is, we'll talk come back and talk about how to accomplish it in a moment to is immersion and distraction. And what that refers to is that, you know, one can't do go through the angst of what some people might call grief work constantly, you have to be very aware that you need to give your mind and yourself and your brain space to chill out and have some enjoyable times. So that's what immersion and distraction means. Sometimes you're going to have to do the hard work of immersing immersing immersing immersing yourself in these difficult memories, which for me was when I was doing the journaling. But that I would plan in my day, also other times where I was going to distract myself from it. And the third ends up being after you've gone through those two steps I just mentioned, the third step is that of time will come when there's enough healing, well, you can begin to open yourself up to new possibilities, because, you know, life will not return to what it was before, after many serious losses. And so, you know, we do have to find a way to make a pivot and start to think of well, how are we going to build this new life, which, you know, take some time.Hannah Choi 37:15So, if someone has a set a sudden traumatic loss, and they haven't read your book, and they have and they, and they, you know, don't you know, know, these steps, or they don't know even where to start, where is a good place to start for people.37:32You know, in the book, I do have a chapter or more where I talk about the nuts and bolts of what you can do. And I think you know, it's really important to know that there isn't one shoe that fits everybody here, we are all very different. And we are looking for some vehicle that allows us to relax enough to get back in touch with disturbing thoughts and emotions, disturbing emotions and memories. Now, you know, for me, it was journaling and journaling. Writing is uniquely well suited to this. But there is mentioned in a moment, many other options. The reason why journaling and writing is uniquely suited is because you are, it's very personal. You can write in a more raw way, when you're writing, knowing nobody else will see this. Because in the end, I wrote a book and put it all in there. That wasn't what I was thinking when I was writing. So they never still doesn't make me comfortable. But you know, when you are writing that you're writing only for yourself and think about it. You can go to a counselor or therapist, you can speak to a dear friend, you can speak to an important clergyman in your church or synagogue or mosque you can you can do all those things. But in every one of those cases, you are sharing something deeply personal with others. And you know what? We all censor ourselves. Yeah, it's only natural and we not you know, who would lay it all out there for somebody to hear we are all censor ourselves. So when you write, you can write just for yourself. You can. It's very difficult to be honest with yourself that you can try your best to be honest with yourself that you can get it on paper, as imperfect as it is. And again, another unique part of writing is that you couldn't go back a week later a day You later a year later and read what you wrote, and annotated and continue to improve it, you know, I find that most people find you go back and read your own words and go, you know, I was, that's only part of the story. And because it teases out more Yeah. And then you can annotate now more. So that's why I think writing is really super. But there are many, many others, you know, there are so many creative outlook outlets. And I think we can think about those creative outlets that people have, whether it's music, or art, dance, all of these outlets are ways that people are expressing themselves and could find it. And it's a way it's kind of a portal into your deepest thoughts. So, all of that, and of course, faith based practices, meditation and other contemplative practices. It goes on and on. Another important source that we shouldn't overlook is getting out in the natural environment. You know, we tend to understate that, but we can all I think, relate to time how often you find yourself if you take a simple walk, or you know, you're you're seeing some beautiful mountains, you're sitting by a lake, you're at the beach, and how it how transforming it is to your thoughts. Yeah. And when you're going through a terrible time, after emotional trauma, that's a ripe moment for you to not only feel like you can exhale, but that you can relax enough to connect with thoughts that otherwise would be inaccessible. The hardest part really is looking in the mirror and understanding ourselves enough to know how to proceed. You know, I'd be the first one to tell you that when I was going through a terrible time, I was not resourceful. Again, getting back to executive function. Now. I was not resourceful. You know, it was like, years later, when I wrote the book, and people are then contacting me from different organizations and podcasts and web, web websites, and so forth. And I went, Oh, my God, there's like an endless array of resources. And I felt totally isolated. And you know, here I am a researcher, I have no difficulty looking things up. But at the time, it was not accessible to me. And I know that's true of others, because everyone has told me.Hannah Choi 42:59Yeah, yeah. I heard I heard, I listened to a podcast that you were on. With a woman who has a podcast about grief, and my working memory is my biggest executive function challenge. So I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, on that you were talking about how how the brain can actually make it so that you don't see objects that are maybe related to the to the person that you lost, or the trauma that you went through. And I thought that was so fascinating, and how that real fat right there for me really shows you that it is your brain. Your your brain. Oh, Dear Life, maybe? Sorry, just came to me, then. Yeah.Dr. Lisa Shulman 43:50Yeah, yeah, I think we should review some of the specific cognitive responses, or effects on cognition. And one of them is what you're talking about, you know, the, you can picture the we're talking before about how the brain is perceiving. This is a threat to our survival. So there are a vast number of protective reflexes and responses that are being activated. And we talked I talked already about many of the physical ones. But from a psychological or emotional standpoint, the brain is in an emotional, protective crouch all the time, which is going to serve to shield us from disturbing triggers disturbing things in our environment. And we have a whole host of psychological defense mechanisms that we all learn long ago, like dissociation, repression, denial and so forth, that are kicked into high gear. It's a subconscious reef. So we're not, we're not deciding we're going to behave that way we don't know that those reflexes are in, I've been kicked off. And this can, as you say, result in literal holes in your perspective or your your vision. And the one that you described to occurred in my life, which was that something as, obviously concrete, as my husband's cell phone, his iPhone, was sitting on our desk. And I mean, not just months, it could have been years, a long time went by, where I just didn't even know, I never saw it. Or I didn't. There was a proper word, I didn't allow myself to see it. You know, but someone actually, in the house, saw it and pointed it out. I had, like, I was shocking to me, it was shocking. I thought, My gosh, it's specific all along. And I chose to ignore it, such that it was a literal hole in my visual field. Yeah. That was just your how, how incredibly strong and powerful these things are, you know, somebody who originally described a dissociation dissociate, described dissociation is fundamental to emotional trauma. And so dissociation is a really important part of this. And my book goes into this in some depth. Resulting in that when you are confronting disturbing stressors in your environment, that your mind has this incredible protective response of just kind of turning off, or shielding you from recognizing what you saw just getting, you know, it might put you in a place for a few seconds or moments where you are, you're basically detached from your environment. Or it might be more mild than that. There can be these interruptions of awareness, it fragments, your memory, because you're having periods of the day where this is occurring, it's causing flashbacks, you can become increasingly emotionally numb, because you're not being open to everything that's really in your environment all the time. So it's a very big part of why many of us feel like something has changed fundamentally, after loss.Hannah Choi 47:53Yeah. It's, and and it's interesting that how you said it, it really just comes back to survival and protecting ourselves.48:05Right! I mean, it's a, it's actually we have to think about it as a very effective strategy that the brain is employing. In other words, if, when, when we have, if we have, you know, horribly, a terrible tragedy or catastrophe occur, we remain able to function and survive. Yeah, it would be possible that we were wired in such a way that we were not able to survive, that, you know, we that you could not function, you could not make a meal, you could not dress yourself, you could not you'd be in such a way, but he said no, the truth is, and I really want to get to this, which is that we're talking about executive function and cognition after trauma. And number one, you can remain extremely high functioning in the face of cognitive change, we are not talking about somebody developing the dementia and being unable to perform their daily activities. Speaking for myself, even in the worst of this, I was seeing patients, writing papers, writing grants, doing everything Yeah. So it just shows you how these things can be quite segregated. Another important point is that the cognitive changes are not across all domains and not across all parts of executive function that you know, as well as I that executive function has many different components. You know, what I'd like to really point to that I think is not discussed enough. And I'm really interested in your thoughts on this, Hannah. You I believe that something that's overlooked a lot is cognitive flexibility.Hannah Choi 50:08I am right there with you.Dr. Lisa Shulman 50:12So, you know, I think that during, after trauma, trauma after emotional trauma, cognitive flexibility takes a big hit for a long time, I imagine. And I just wonder, you know, how do you come across that in your own work?Hannah Choi 50:29I mean, I, I think I really believe that cognitive flexibility is that and metacognition, just understanding how we think and why we think and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do, I think those two together are, for me, what I see in my clients and in myself and in others are the most of the two most important, because without that cognitive flexibility, especially I imagine with when you when your life experiences such a great shift, and such a great change. And like you said before, life is not going to go back to how it was before, that cognitive flexibility is probably going to be the answer to finding new ways of doing your life now. And finding happiness and success. I mean, I can't think of another executive function that is going to be more helpful than that. 51:31And really, at the heart of, you know, being able to be successful, because, you know, it runs from the sublime to the ridiculous, you know, if somebody does, for example, reach out for or tries, I was talking before about all the kinds of methods that one strategies one could try, if someone does begin on say, Okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to find a counselor, I'm going to go to a support group. And, and that doesn't have the proper chemistry, or it just doesn't feel like it's being helpful to you for some reason, you know, if you don't have cognitive flexibility and resourcefulness, you know, that it's pretty much a dead end for somebody, rather than saying, Oh, well, you know, there's 10 other ways to do this. The so I mean, that's the sublime, the ridiculous part of it can be that you can literally find yourself doing things in incredibly robotic ways. When you are in a going through a period of terrible emotional trauma, where things are being done the way they were always done very automatically, and you get kind of fixed in the spot. And then when hopefully, you do become more healed and have more insight and cognitive flexibility, you know, like, it's like, one day you think, we're gonna say, you know, I'm doing these three steps, and there's a way to do this one step, why don't I see that all? You know, and, you know, I mean, for those who have experienced the loss of a loved one, I mean, there are some of these things that are so common. The simple example I've spoken to many people, is, if you if it's somebody that you know, a partner, that you find yourself going to the supermarket and buying all the same foods, even though that person is no longer home, you are in thinking I want to buy this in honor of the memory of the lost loved one, you just automatically are buying in and you're stocking your pantry and the things that you don't ordinarily use takes actually a fair amount of time to you wake up to the fact that you're doing that. Another one I talked about on a BBC broadcast is that people oftentimes describe preparing foods that their loved ones preferred, not what they prefer, they prefer it right, right. Again, it's not something that you plan out, you're just automatically doing it. And it takes it sometimes you then in a robotic, you're doing it and you're doing it and you're doing it and you don't have the cognitive flexibility to go this is what's happening and maybe I don't need, you know, five boxes of that.Hannah Choi 54:33Yeah. And it just it really shows you that we are our habits. We are the that like you said, you know, like that, that our brains have been wired that way. So we think that way,54:45You know, one of the things I'll I'll pointed to other examples in the cognitive sphere or to other issues. One is the inattention And we talked about the dissociation and how we results in this loss of awareness and so forth. And, you know, people who have suffered serious emotional trauma are have been found to be quite vulnerable to accidents. And this is a very, it's a significant problem, you know, more falling, more car accidents, just accidents. And, you know, I read about that, but you know, I will just say, again, from pointing to my personal experience, you know, in the year following my husband's death, I fell and broke my ankle. And I was in three car accidents, fortunately, fender benders. And then since then none of that this is almost the 10th year anniversary of his death. I mean, it shows you that there is some cognitive change that you are not as alert to your environment.Hannah Choi 56:07Yeah, yeah, well, it makes sense. And I just did an episode on ADHD. And in my research, I found that people with ADHD, who struggle with attention are also more prone to accidents, car accidents and injuries.Dr. Lisa Shulman 56:23So that also also totally makes sense. Yeah. And like, the final point I don't want to overlook is the impact of our bio rhythms. And, you know, many of us know that we are either you know, morning larks or night owls. And that's just a very fixed part of our genetics. That's not something you can change. And so when you are, you know, you don't you have minimal or no reserve after emotional trauma. So therefore, from the standpoint of cognition, think about if you are, are you a morning Lark or a night owl?Hannah Choi 57:05Well, I am a night owl, I am fighting fighting that right now. I'm trying really hard to become a morning Lark. I'm a little better, but I'm trying to fake it till I make it but it's not happening.57:21So, you know, if you have are in a bad way, with minimal to no cognitive reserve, and you're you should just be aware, well, you know, if you are that morning for you, Hannah, is not going to be the optimum time for you to try to do a serious cognitive task. Right, right. Because you have to two things that are going on. And so why you why even fight it.Hannah Choi 57:53And that's so much of what what I do in my coaching is help helping people figure out when is the best time of day for you to do different things. And you know, when when are you going to be most successful, when is not a great time to try something new or even to try something challenging? Yeah, just becoming aware, learning that learning about ourselves and, and knowing that,58:16I mean, I think it has a lot to do with something important that my husband taught me, which is about being forgiving to yourself. And, you know, I think that all of us, and maybe women even more than men, you know, are, you know, filled with angst and second thoughts and remorse, recrimination, and you know, like, especially for people who are going through terrible times, after traumatic losses, it's very important to know, go gentle with yourself and think, you know, I'm doing my best. And I'm I going to keep on working on this. And sometimes, I'm going to have a longing to regress, sometimes I'm going to really handle something poorly, I'm going to make a poor decision. And that we should go well, I'm going to be forgiving to myself, because I'm going through a hard time and I'm going to learn from this and try again. I think that that's a very important part of it. And on the small side of it in terms of what you were just saying the day to day side of it. You know, you might sit down and think okay, I've set aside this time to do what I called before the subconscious conscious integration, the grief work, the inner work, and you might sit down and it might be very unsuccessful. You just simply can't find you can't find your rhythm like you had on another day? Well, I mean, it's good to acknowledge that it just go well, no, for some reason. For whatever reason, this is not the right time for me. Yeah, I'm gonna do something else. And tomorrow's another day.Hannah Choi 1:00:15yeah. We always talk about how you can't listen to those shoulds. You have to, you know, be gentle with yourself and, and do what's right in the moment. Is there anything else that you can think of? Did you want to go back to your three steps? Was there anything that you wanted to expand on there?Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:00:32You know, I think that, you know, one thing that I would say that can be quite confusing, is when we talk about this idea of subconscious conscious integration, the work to integrate, and reconnect the emotional response to the cognitive functions. And then we refer to that second step of immersion and distraction, I think one of the things that can be confusing, and is to me about exactly how to talk about it, is that the balance between the kinds of things that calm us down, and will be a source of distraction. And the kinds of things that will calm us down and enable us to do the hard work of Yeah, of reconnection of subconscious conscious integration. And that I think, can be a source of confusion. And we sort of all have to find our own balance there. And maybe identify times that are ripe, to even even if it's for a short moment, you know, say for example, in the ways we were talking before, that you might be out in a natural environment, and you feel a sense of relief, and you feel like you can think more clearly. And in that moment, a memory might drift back to you. That is maybe a sad, a sad memory. It's a sad memory. But you see, it just became accessible to you, because you had relaxed enough for that purpose. Yeah. And now, you know, one doesn't have to feel compelled to do some work around that, because you've already accomplished something, like doing that, or feeling feeling sad about it isn't necessarily enough to feel like that's a regression. It's instead, as you go through that, and you in the way we talked about self efficacy, developing confidence in yourself, that you go through, you have that moment, and you might reflect and feel sorrow. And then you go back to maybe what you were doing, and you have just had an experience where you succeeded in the face of you didn't have, you know, a break and emotional breakdown, you didn't weren't triggered, the fight or flight mechanism wasn't triggered to its nth degree, you instead had a moment of sorrow and you went through it, which is different than what would have happened before. That's, that's a success.Hannah Choi 1:03:43Yeah. And that that makes me think back to when you were talking about journaling and how, how when you when you like say, you wrote that down that you find that you this used to happen before and now this now this happens. You can look and see that that evidence that evidence of growth and progress and how that must be really empowering and and give you and bolster that self efficacy that is so helpful in getting through.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:04:14Yes, and you know, that you're able to acknowledge is that it's a healthy mind to be able to acknowledge that that was a beautiful important part of me. It's not here anymore, you're honoring it. I mean, you you'd give anything to go back and have that person back or undo that traumatic event. But this really refers to the important field of post traumatic growth and how you achieve that. There you with time, you know, we have well, another favorite phrase is Time heals all wounds. isn't enough for most people, not everybody, but for most people, time will result in a lot of healing after traumatic loss. But if one doesn't go through the steps that we're talking about here, to reverse those bad neuroplastic changes in the brain access suppressed memories and emotions, excuse me, access suppressed memories and emotions. If you don't go through those steps, you are blocked from ever growing as fully for your to potential as you could write, you will improve, but you will be blocked from the full potential that you have,Hannah Choi 1:05:50because of the way that your brain is responding.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:05:54Because you have never you continue to have suppressed memories and emotions that your brain has to continually protect you from. Yeah, right. No, another way we can refer to this, in terms of cognition, and it's important is that when when the when the brain is functioning in that protective mode, the fight or flight, the acute responses, the chronic effects, everything we talked about, it uses up a lot of brain power, a lot of real estate in the brain is being used up to, to shield me from seeing that iPhone, that's not just happening on its own, some portion of the brain is keeps on going, you know, alert to say no to that thing. You know, there's a part of the brain that keeps on doing that over and over. And how can that ever be compatible with full healing and optimum cognitive function? Yeah, it's not possible. No. And it's, it's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong process. It's not as if anybody is ever going to be at the end of that process. We keep on identifying things that are disturbing, and then you have to work through it again.Hannah Choi 1:07:38Which gives you that what gives you the ability to move out of what you said before that the feeling of hopelessness, and there's concrete things that you can do. Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your talking with me. And it's fascinating and difficult to talk about at the same time.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:08:05No, it's like anything else. So like we just said, it was very difficult to talk about it in the beginning. And now I've talked about it a lot. No longer difficult,

Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated Executive Producer of "The Disruptors," the first comprehensive documentary about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and its effect on kids, adults, and their families. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Nancy to have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD and why she wanted to create a comprehensive film to help dispel the myths around ADHD and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits.When you view the film, you may notice a star-studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician Will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. The film also features Dr. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and New York Times best-selling author, who's helped lead the charge on ADHD awareness for decades. If you're listening before January 26, 2023, you can watch The Disruptors for free! (Info in the show notes) Show Notes:Learn more about “The Disruptors”Watch “The Disruptors” for free! Use code TDB-BBS. Available from 1/19/23 - 1/26/23. If you're reading this after January 26th, 2023, click here to find out how to watch.Learn more about Nancy ArmstrongDownload our free ADHD success kitContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:20Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated executive producer of a documentary film called The Disruptors. This film is all about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, and how it can affect kids, adults and their families. I got to sit down with Nancy and have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD, and about why she wanted to do something to help people learn about it, dispel myths about it and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits, even though the name might make you think otherwise. When you view the film, you'll see a star studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and author shares both his expertise on ADHD and also his personal experience living with it. Even though these people are all famous, their stories are presented in a way that is just so relatable and real to the rest of us. Gosh, you guys, this documentary is really special. Even before I talked with Nancy, I could tell that it was made with the love and attention a topic like this deserves and just hadn't been given yet. Our Podcast Producer, Sean Potts, says he deeply wishes that he had had the opportunity to watch this when he was younger. That film is powerful message is that yes, having ADHD creates challenges and frustration for people. But ADHD is much more than those challenges and frustrations. Many of the very good things in our world are here because of people with ADHD, who had the creativity, the curiosity and the energy to create them. Watching the film. And hearing this message throughout, it reminded me so much of the clients that I've worked with, who have ADHD, and who have created systems to manage the challenges and work to discover the positive sides. So I am so proud and happy to share Nancy's work with you. And I hope you get a chance to watch after listening to our conversation today. And guess what? If you're listening before January 26, 2023, go to the show notes and click on the link to register for access to view The Disruptors for free. There's a code that you'll need to enter to watch. So make sure you get that you can find that listed in the show notes too. If you're listening after January 26. Keep listening to the episode to hear Nancy share where you can find the film or just look in the show notes for those links. Okay, here we go. Hannah Choi 03:19Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for joining me today. My thanks for having me. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Nancy Armstrong 03:26Sure. I'm Nancy Armstrong. I'm the executive producer of the disruptors.Hannah Choi 03:30I just want to tell all of our listeners that you should absolutely watch this documentary, it was just excellent. It made me laugh. It made me smile. It brought tears to my eyes. And it just made me feel so much hope for people with ADHD and their parents. So thank you for for making it.Nancy Armstrong 03:50Thank you for saying that. That means the world to me.Hannah Choi 03:52Oh, good. So tell me the story of how did you end up being the executive producer of an ADHD documentary? Nancy Armstrong 04:00Well, I have three children with ADHD. And my son was definitely my firstborn. And the most challenging. We sort of figured out very early on something unusual was going on with him. We couldn't figure out what it was. He seemed normal, but also incredibly active to the point of us getting kicked out of Mommy and Me class at when he was a toddler. So there were a bunch of signs in the beginning, and we couldn't quite figure out what it was. And then finally, at age eight, he was diagnosed after going through a round of tests, he was diagnosed with ADHD. And that was great that we understood it finally, but that was kind of the beginning of our journey, learning how to manage it, learning how to treat it. Also in that same office, my husband raised his hand and said I have all those symptoms. And the doctor said well, it's genetic. So that was the beginning of our journey and and it was just incredibly difficult going through the K through 12 system and also I had this idea that well, my husband has it. And he was very successful. He had all of the challenges of ADHD. But he also had some pretty impressive, impressive strengths that I didn't even tie to ADHD until I met Ned Hallowell, and talked to him about my son. And he also met my husband, Tim. And he said, Well, you know, all those strings are ADHD too. And we just kind of went, what that's there, everything is tied together. So that was the beginning. And I thought, Man, there should be a documentary on this. And so for 10 years, I waited for someone to make this documentary, and they never made it. And so finally, in 2018, I quit my job and decided to make the film because I knew it could help so many people, not only in this country, but around the world. And that we finally had to reframe ADHD from this deficit disorder model, to something that is two sides of a coin, on the one hand challenges but on the other hand, incredible strengths. And if you can maximize those, it can be a huge asset.Hannah Choi 06:00I really loved how, how Ned in in the documentary talked about how, like, let's look at the challenges and then flip them over and see what the what the positive of all of those challenges are. And, and I really loved how he worded that I love him. He's so great. Yeah.Nancy Armstrong 06:19Symptoms, you know, it's like every, for every symptom, that is an impediment. Distractibility, impulsivity and hyperactivity, you know, with Ned's analysis is you flip each one of those on its head, and you get a positive. And if you can learn to accelerate those positives, then the negatives will be less prominent, you'll you'll be motivated to be on time to get organized and to do all those things, because you'll want to accelerate your gifts.Hannah Choi 06:48Yes, yes, absolutely. And I see that a lot in the clients that I work with as, as an executive function coach, not not all of my clients have ADHD, but the ones that that do, I do notice that when they start to figure that out, they are much more motivated to start using tools and strategies, because they're excited about all these other things that I that I can take advantage of and make happen, it becomes maybe easier to do that. And then it's more, it's less challenging and more rewarding.Nancy Armstrong 07:18Yeah, and the more the world understands it that way, rather than looking at a child with ADHD and saying, Oh, you're disorganized, your homeworks not turned in, you're late, you know, all the all of these challenges to be to be addressed in a different way of, Oh, you're very curious, you're very creative, you have a lot of ideas, you have boundless energy, and to sort of approach it that way, and will work on your challenges is much more positive way to go through your formative years, and I think can make a huge difference in outcomes.Hannah Choi 07:49Absolutely. And with that confidence, it bringing that confidence piece in if you can not look at it, like from a deficit viewpoint, then that confident you're able to build that confidence back and, and or maybe not build it back, but just build it. And, and then, and then they can go so much farther with that. Yeah, I really like how, how it was addressed in the documentary that unfortunately, it ADHD is named, it brings up the deficit within the name, which is a shame, it's too bad to can't be named something else with the positive in there instead.Nancy Armstrong 08:26And we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, I really tried. Why the will, I am said, Ada. I have my friend Kenny Dichter, who's in the film calls it a 10 Attention Deficit advantage, but really, it's not an it's a deficit of attention. It's really an abundance of attention going in too many directions. So the name is, you know, not only trivializes the diagnosis, but it's also kind of incorrect.Hannah Choi 08:51Yeah, I feel like it kind of has, its what typical society, the systems within the society needs, it needs you to in order to function smoothly and properly, it needs you to be able to focus with the appropriate amount on one thing at a time. And so it's it's harder to fit into that system that's, that's built. My family and I were talking about it about it yesterday, and we were saying, and one of my clients said this, too, he you know, he said people with ADHD, and I think it came up with the the son of the boy who likes to go fishing. I can't remember his injuries, maybe a Hogan. Yeah. You know, he, like he they were saying like if he didn't he wasn't living in today's world, then it wouldn't have been a problem. It would have been like a really great benefit. Because and that's what my clients said. He's like, if you're out in the, you know, in the bush, you want someone with ADHD because they're going to notice everything, and they're going to be able to pay attention.Nancy Armstrong 09:54Well, that's why people with ADHD are more suited to certain kinds of careers, you know? With high stimulation, so firefighters, ER doctors, you know, newsroom producers, they need environments with a ton of stimulation. It doesn't stress them out, like it might stress out a neurotypical person, it turns them on. So we tried to get as many people in the film in those kinds of careers, you know that we have many, many, well known people from different walks of life, that have used ADHD to their advantage while still managing the downsides. And they all talked about how tough it was going through school growing up. But then they've kind of turned that corner and realized what they were good at. And we're able to accelerate that into an incredible career.Hannah Choi 10:42Yeah, I love the variety of people that you had, how did you connect well, with all of them? Nancy Armstrong 10:46Some of them we knew. As soon as we got, you know, Hall of Fame astronaut, Scott Kelly on board, you know, everyone wants to be part of that group. So it was extremely helpful when he said yes, and will.i.am said yes right away. So that was incredible and a lot of people. Honestly, Howie Mandel just said, I think it's important. I think this is an important film. So I was surprised at how many people said yes, but I think it was because they knew what the mission of the film was. And they want to reframe ADHD once and for all, and because the world has it wrong, and we need to get it right.Hannah Choi 11:22 Yes, yes, I agree. I interviewed Bob Shea, who's a children's author who has ADHD. And he felt the same way. He was really happy to talk about his challenges. He was diagnosed as an adult, he was really happy to talk about his challenges, because he is for the same reason. Yeah. So did creating the documentary change anything for ADHD, about ADHD? For you, I mean, your experience change? Nancy Armstrong 11:46Well, I think it's funny. First of all, I will say the experiences are all universal. And that was really surprising to me that as we interviewed all of these families, it was the same story of our family. So it is interesting, it's a real community and the same story of all the public personalities that spoke so everyone has had this sort of shared universal experience that they don't know, it feels very isolating, like, you're the only one going through it. And you're the only one having this experience. But it's actually very universal among 10% of the population. So you're not alone. But also how difficult it is, even when you know, what it is and how it works and what you can do to help you still, as a parent, fall down every once in a while, and there's a lot of parental guilt. You know, in fact, while I was in the middle of making the film, my 16 year old daughter said to me, "You're making a film on this, and you still don't get it". And I thought, Oh, interesting. Wow, every day, and I'll still say, the dumb thing of like, What do you mean you missed 10 homework assignments, you didn't turn it? What are you doing, like, you know, it's not intentional, it's just, that's what happens. And you have to put systems in place to help them and, you know, try to avoid situations like that, but they're going to happen, that's just the nature of growing up with ADHD.Hannah Choi 13:04And, and that brings back the how important it is for parents and people to learn about ADHD so that they can recognize maybe something is going on, that their child could get help with earlier than later. The the story of Zara really just broke my heart, my heart went out to her mother, she, she's seems like it was really painful for her to remember back to before she knew that her daughter had ADHD. And just thinking, you know, there's so many families out there that are going through or have gone through that.Nancy Armstrong 13:37Oh, yeah, the story is so relatable. I mean, people have told me they watch the film, and they cry through the whole thing. Which is, means it's hitting a nerve, a very universal corner, particularly of parental guilt. And same things I should say, because these kids will really push you to the brink of your sanity and patience. Because there really, there's a relentlessness about so many kids with ADHD that is hard to parent. But I think it's so healing for parents to watch the film. And so healing for kids to watch the film to know that it's not just them. And this is the way your brain is wired. And it's okay. It will be challenging growing up, but you can harness it and make a great life for yourself.Hannah Choi 14:20 Yeah, it's yeah, it's beautiful. It really is a beautiful message in there. And you brought up the brain. I love that you had an explanation of the brain and how that works. And I've noticed in my work with people, when they find out how their brain works and how their brain causes them to do or not do things really, really helps. It really helps to just understand and feel better about it.Nancy Armstrong 14:44I thought it was important to show the brain science behind this because there is so much confusion, particularly this myth that ADHD doesn't exist. So I wanted to blow right through that with the brain science showing exactly how the brain works. Where ADHD is, you know In the brain, and you know how it's working in the brain, and also to show if people decide to use stimulant medication as one of the tools, what that's actually doing in the brain and how for people with ADHD, if there's no high that they get, it only calms them down. I mean, that's a critical thing to understand is that people with ADHD takes stimulant medication, there's no euphoria, it just brings them there, their dopamine is here, and it brings it to here. You know, with a person who is not ADHD, they're no normal dopamine level then shoots up. That's why they're getting a high because they're having something unnaturally high in their brain. So that's important to understand. And I understand there's, you know, there's an Adderall shortage, it probably it's either supply chain, or it has to do with the fact that too many doctors, regular doctors, like primary care physicians, or pediatricians are just writing prescriptions for pushy parents of kids who haven't been properly diagnosed. And that's a problem we need to solve. But that has no relationship to people who have been diagnosed properly with ADHD and need that medication because it's making a huge difference in helping them live a better life.Hannah Choi 16:13Yeah, and that's another reason why understanding that brain science is so important to help people understand that the medication is not you know, like how the medication works. Once you understand how it works, it's a lot easier to understand why someone would take it because it really does sound like quite contradictory. Why would I give stimulant medication to someone who already has a lot of energy? So but when you understand how the brain works, then it makes sense. Yeah. So in addition to that, which what are some key takeaways that you feel are really important for parents to and parents and educators? Right, and just people in the world that interact with other people that might have ADHD? What can they take away from your film?Nancy Armstrong 16:56Well, one of the messages of the film is if we could just help people understand in broader society, that these are imaginative, creative beings, that just need a little more support to get on the right track. And I'm talking mostly about children who really struggle because, you know, the very nature of a sort of assembly line, rote approach to education is anathema to the ADHD brain. So if you have children in your class that are late that are not turning in homework, it might make sense to investigate what's going on, rather than just writing them off as a bad kid. Maybe this is a child with ADHD, maybe the parents, no, maybe they don't. But as soon as you understand those children in your class that have ADHD, you can approach them differently. And there's a relationship that can happen between a teacher and a child that makes a world of difference. If the teacher writes the child off, the child knows, and they give up, and there's, that's the end of that, that's the end of eighth grade science. That's it. Or if the child can have understanding from the teacher, if the teacher can say, Okay, I know you have ADHD, so I know these things are going to be difficult for you. But these things are going to be easier for you. So let's make sure we're focusing on your strengths and some of your challenges. And that's a that creates a relationship. And, you know, I remember my son had a Spanish teacher freshman year in high school, who was so determined for him to succeed. He just said, I know you can do it, I know you can do it. And my son felt sort of an obligation to that teacher, to prove him not prove him wrong, you know, so the teachers can have an incredibly positive impact on children. And I think to empower teachers with that knowledge is a huge takeaway. And then I think for parents, you also have an incredible responsibility and ability to have such a positive impact on your child, if you can control your response to them, which is incredibly difficult day in and day out. Everyday is Groundhog Day, what we just talked about yesterday is now happening again today, as if yesterday never happened. So it does require Herculean patience, and that's a good thing to develop in life anyway for an adult way. But, you know, just love your child, even when they're, you know, really behaving badly is to just love them through those moments. You'll feel like a better person, you'll feel like a superstar person if you can do that. And your child will fare so much better under those circumstances. So I think that the the message is like parents are kind of the childhood cure for ADHD because without parents by your side fighting for you advocating for you, loving you, it's really hard to get through.Hannah Choi 19:39And I love that that message came through really strongly with the families that you interviewed the parents. You could tell they they just love their children so much and just we're trying so hard to to help them and and their hearts are just breaking for them. It was it was very moving. It was very, very moving to watch that. Nancy Armstrong 20:01Oh, thank you. And I see that in school, we do screenings, we've done screenings all over the country. And the parents, we do q&a, usually afterwards. And parents cry through that q&a. I mean, it's the same pain. It's so universal. And you know, it's interesting, they're doing, I just read, they're doing a screening in Ireland, they, so there's a screening in Ireland, and they're doing a q&a Afterward, I won't be there. But it's just amazing that all over the world, the screenings are happening, and people are having this new conversation about ADHD and, and finding community, which I think is so important. I've never had one public conversation about it, until I made the film. And, you know, the film was like a forum for those conversations.Hannah Choi 20:44Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that is exactly why I'm doing this conversation. This, that's exactly why I'm doing this podcast is to have more of these conversations. And hopefully, even just one person hears the conversation and recognizes that it's okay to talk about and that it's helpful to talk about it. And it's helpful to find the community and, and, actually, that's something that that that you guys brought up in the documentary was how important it is to try to reach people because there are services and there are support supports and information and knowledge and, you know, family support and child support and medication support. But helping people learn about that and get access to that is, is the hard part. And so thank you for doing the work that you're doing and why I do what I do. Nancy Armstrong 21:36So, yeah, yeah, that's another thing that's really concerns me is that there, there's a dearth of ADHD experts in the country and around the world. So one of the things I think we really need to do is have more training for primary care physicians, more training for pediatricians, because they don't have the requisite amount of training to really deal with this. And they're going to have to because there won't, in the absence of experts, it will fall to them. And we saw in the film, you know, Bear's pediatrician told his mother to cut Concerta in half. And Concerta is a time release medication. So you can't cut time release medication in half. Bear was given a whole day's worth of, of a methylphenidate because of cutting that in one shot because of cutting that medication in half. So that's unacceptable, you know, primary care physicians prescribing this medication need to know how to prescribe it, and how to tell parents to use it because they don't know it's up to the doctors, and they're obviously under trained.Hannah Choi 22:43Yeah. And Bear's mom was, you know, had the, the, the knowledge that there was someone else she could ask that she, you know, could get more information, but not everybody realizes that a lot of people, you know, have the experience, you know, where they, they either don't trust the doctor, so they don't look for more help. Or they, they just take the doctors word for it. And they don't realize like, oh, you can ask for more you can if it doesn't feel right, you can look for help elsewhere.Nancy Armstrong 23:14So I'm glad, or if one medication doesn't work, and that is a painful process is that trial and error process. If one doesn't work, there's another one that might and, you know, good for her for sticking it out and finding I think it was focalin that finally, like, just gave bare target symptom relief with no side effects. And he, you know, his life just got so much better because he was happier. You know, no child wants to be disruptive in class. They're not doing it on purpose. Their brains are wired differently. And they're telling them to move when they're supposed to sit still. They're telling them to speak when they're supposed to be quiet. So getting that support is incredibly valuable to child because children just want to go to school every day and fit in. It's like going to school every day where everyone has blue paint, and you show up with yellow paint. It's a horrible feeling. I mean, you know, my son now is 21. But he just recalls how despairing he was how bereft he was at having that experience every day and how hopeless it made him feel. Even though we were on top of it, even though we were supporting him. It's still like they're going there for eight hours a day. And if they feel that they're out of step the entire time. That's got to be a terrible feeling.Hannah Choi 24:29Yeah, and that early, early, early experience of that, you know, all those experiences that we have, create those connections in our brains and then to unlearn those feelings about yourself and to unlearn the your expectations of how people are going to react to you. And that's that is a lifelong process. I mean, regardless of your if whether you have ADHD or not like the things that happen to us as children, you know, it's stuff we have to deal with for the rest of our lives. Nancy Armstrong 25:00They make lasting, you know, they make indelible marks on your psyche. And, you know, the other thing with kids is because they miss social cues because they're a little out of step socially. They get bullied, kids with ADHD are bullied two times more than kids without ADHD, and more than half of kids with ADHD are bullied. And that is a terrible thing to have to overcome, you know, and leaves lasting damage. And so even though I was a parent who was pretty on top of it, I mean, it was very unpopular in my town, because just golf parents up, I mean, I was pretty relentless. Trying to stop it, and you know, why would stop one and another one would pop up. But, you know, it's still it still leaves a lasting mark on their emotional development.Hannah Choi 25:46Yeah. And that brings up the importance of, of, you know, reaching out if, and getting therapy and therapy to help develop strategies to get you through your day, but also therapy to help, you know, with those emotions that come along with, like, not fitting in to, to what society expects people to, to act like. I imagined that that's really helpful. I was glad that you guys address that in the document in the documentary, and coaching as well. Is that Nancy Armstrong 26:16Yeah, very important. I mean, there's a toolbox of things that can really help manage ADHD. And I don't think the film doesn't advocate for any one of them. More specifically, it's really a multi pronged approach that is, is, you know, the best prescription for managing ADHD.Hannah Choi 26:33Yeah, absolutely. So, as an executive function, coach, I'm, you know, always curious about how you have challenges affect different people, what areas of executive function challenge you?Nancy Armstrong 26:46Well, I don't have ADHD, I think I grew up with it, I think I'm one of there's like, 25, there's 25%, or 30% of people who have symptoms in childhood, but outgrow them when their brain reaches full maturity. And my brain didn't really reach full maturity until I was 30. So that's kind of another sign of ADHD or we lag behind. But my husband definitely still has it, both the positives and the negatives. And, as do my children, and I think the biggest one for adults, that is, details. It's those details and time management and, you know, those kinds of things. So I'm a compulsive list maker, you know, which is probably my way of overcompensating for, you know, the challenges I had in my, you know, childhood and 20s. Super organized now, like psychotically, organized basically swung the pendulum from total disorganization to militant organization. So I'm probably more regimented now as a as a reaction to being so unregimented.Hannah Choi 27:55Yeah, right. Right.Nancy Armstrong 27:57It's a coping. It's a coping skill.Hannah Choi 27:59Yeah, absolutely. I, I have a terrible my working memory is, is pretty atrocious. And so I am like, crazy about writing things down and making lists and resetting reminders. And it's still forget things here and there. But yeah, I think you have to, you kind of have to go to the other side. And with that comes, that comes with maturity, right? As we get older, we can recognize the value of doing those things. And it's harder when you're little. But I loved how the kids started to say it, like, especially Zara, she mentioned that she realized that, that working a little harder and try and doing different things to make things better for herself, really, really paying off in the long run, which I loved.Nancy Armstrong 28:40And, I think for adults, too. We had an adult female in the film, and I think it was really great to see how it affects an adult's life. You know, I think a lot of adults weren't diagnosed as children and then figure it out when they have children. Because otherwise I wouldn't figure it out. You know, if you're, if your children are, it's kind of when your kids get diagnosed, that you go, "Oh, that's exactly me, too". You know, my mother, I think had a pretty serious case of ADHD. We never understood what it was. And I think she felt bad about it for so much of her life, not knowing exactly why she was the way she was, but knowing she was different. And it was, you know, just it was what it was. So I think it's super helpful for people who think they may have ADHD. And it's to the degree to which it's really causing impairment in your life. Everyone forgets who he is, and, you know, forgets things every once in a while, but it's the degree to which it becomes untenable in your life and starts to really interfere with being successful.Hannah Choi 29:37Right? Yeah, I used to work at an office for students with disabilities at a community college. And so often, like our kids would come in to get tested for learning disabilities, or they would go to an outside source to get tested for ADHD. And their parents who would always come in or call or somebody say, oh, my gosh, I realize now that that's me, like I I finally have an explanation for why I have had challenges in my life. And so, yeah, it's it's wonderful to see adults figuring that out. Nancy Armstrong 30:07Yeah, I think it's a huge relief. Absolutely. You know, you know, as Eliza said, In the film, before she found out, you know, she, where she was diagnosed, she just thought she was terrible at adulthood. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's heartbreaking, very successful. She's very successful entrepreneur, but, you know, keeping all the details and time management and all those things were really a challenge for her but big picture thinking, and, you know, creating things she was great at.Hannah Choi 30:36Yeah, yeah, one of my clients. He's an adult who actually has graduated from coaching, but he was diagnosed at 33. And he's the same way, you know, just really great at the big, the big picture and harder with the details. And, and he said, it just explained everything for him in his life. And now he's just doing so great. And he, it's really wonderful to see the progress that he's made, figuring out how his brain works, and what works and what doesn't so. So is there anything else that you want to mention? Nancy Armstrong 31:17I want to tell people where to find the film. You can find the film on iTunes, Apple TV, Google Play YouTube, Amazon Prime and Vudu.Hannah Choi 31:26Yeah, I've watched it on Amazon.Nancy Armstrong 31:28We can screen it at your schools. You know, I think we, we need to get this film in schools.Hannah Choi 31:35Absolutely. Yes, I will put all the information in the show notes for how they can find out more about screenings, and about the film itself, and the important message that it's sharing with everybody. Really appreciate it. Is there anything else that you're working on? Is this inspired you to do something else?Nancy Armstrong 31:59Right now I'm focusing on promoting the film. Whenever we, you know, reach the tipping point. It's not we're not there yet. So I want it to be ubiquitous. And I think it will be a sort of an evergreen film. I mean, we have the world's we follow a diverse number of families and, and have all these, you know, well known people speaking in the film, so I think this will be the film. And until it's out there everywhere. My work is not done.Hannah Choi 32:27Yeah. Oh, good. Great. Yes. It's, I just tell everyone, please go watch this movie, this documentary. It's, first of all, it's just so well made. It's so easy and enjoyable to watch. Heartbreaking at times. And so uplifting and full of hope at the end, and actually not even just at the end throughout. And I just, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. So thank you for that work.Nancy Armstrong 32:55Oh, well, I made the film with Atlas films. Director is Stephanie Soechtig and another producer, Kristen Lazar, and they are brilliant documentary filmmakers. And they've done, you know, a number of documentaries that have really taken a subject and turned it on its head, like, set up the Devil We Know, Under the Gun. So I was extremely excited when they said yes to working with me on this. And I think the film is is good as it is, in large part because of working with them. Hannah Choi 33:24Well, thank you so much, Nancy, for joining me today and sharing about your film and for continuing to do the work that you're doing to help people understand ADHD and understand people with ADHD it's so important to so thank you for doing it.Nancy Armstrong 33:38Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.Hannah Choi 33:43And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to learn more about The Disruptors. And as I mentioned before, beyond booksmart is offering free access to view the film through January 26 2023. So I really hope you get to take advantage of that. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Nancy inspiring, and that you get a chance to view the film. As Nancy aims to do with The Disruptors. We here at focus forward. I also hope to help as many people as we can with each episode. So please share our podcast with your colleagues and your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. And if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by sharing that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Whether it's the first day at daycare or preschool, the beginning of kindergarten, or the transition to middle or high school, sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. But for college, it can can be downright terrifying. According to both the experts and the people in my life, it's the biggest leap of faith of all - especially these days with the high rates of depression and anxiety among college kids (both of which have doubled since 2014!) Luckily, there are people like Dr. Marcia Morris out there to support both our kids and ourselves. Marcia is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida and she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the university. Marcia and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives.Here are some resources related to the topic of college students' mental health.988 LifelineLearn More about Dr. Marcia MorrisMarcia's websiteThe Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College StudentsPsychology Today BlogCollege Mental Health ResourcesHealthy Minds StudyHow Colleges Today Are Supporting Student Mental HealthStudent mental health is in crisis. Campuses are rethinking their approachBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health ChecklistTaking a Mental Health Leave from CollegeGap YearsTaking a Gap Year Before Grad SchoolTaking a Gap Year Before CollegeLearn More About Gap Years Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 0:04 Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges, and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Happy New Year, everyone. We made it through another year. And I have to say I am super excited about what's to come in 2023. I'm so glad you're here with me. And I hope you continue to find this podcast useful, and relatable and easy to listen to. We're always open to new topic ideas. So if you've got anything you'd like me to explore, please reach out. Sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. Their first day at daycare or preschool, when they start kindergarten, or transition to middle or high school. Both of my kids will be starting at new schools next year, high school for my daughter and middle school for my son. So you might want to check in on me and see how I'm doing later this fall. But I think the scariest is probably going to be when they head off to college. From what I hear from friends and family is that it's the biggest leap of faith that you'll take as a parent. And especially these days when we hear that the rates of depression and anxiety among college kids have doubled since 2014. And we have way too much access to news which can really make it seem like bad stuff is happening all the time, even though it's not. But luckily there are people like Dr. Marsha Morris out there. Marsha is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida. And she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the University. She's also written a book, which she'll talk about and she writes a blog as well. Marsha and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives. Before I dive into this important conversation, I want to share a critical resource that everyone needs to know about the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline. This completely free service offers 24/7 Call, text and chat access to trained crisis counselors who can help people experiencing suicidal substance use and or mental health crisis or any other kind of emotional distress. People can also dial 988 If they are worried about a loved one who may need crisis support. Do not hesitate to reach out for help if you are struggling, or you suspect a loved one might be okay. Thank you for listening and now on to the show. Hi, Marcia. Thanks so much for joining me for today's episode.Marcia Morris, MD 3:06 I'm so glad to be here today, Hannah.Hannah Choi 3:09 Great I'm really looking forward to this conversation about supporting college kids. My kids are are not yet ready for school or college. My daughter's my eldest is in eighth grade. But I know it's gonna happen in a blink of an eye. So could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Marcia Morris, MD 3:26 Sure. My name is Dr. Marcia Morris. And I've worked as a college psychiatrist at the University of Florida for nearly 30 years. I became a college psychiatrist right after I finished my training. And I chose to work with university students because it's such an exciting age where so many changes are going on and people are finding out their path in life. So, but one thing that I've noticed over the years is it's kids are facing more challenges and having more mental health issues. And as a result of that, I'll mention a book I wrote for parents of college students called The Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College Students. It really takes a team you need providers, parents, professors to all help students be successful in school. And I write a blog for Psychology Today called College Wellness: Promoting Happiness and Health and the College Years. Again, for parents who can be great facilitators and helping college students have a joyful college experience.Hannah Choi 4:39 Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in Santa Barbara, California, back when I lived where it was warm year round, and, and and a lot of the work that we did was helping parents figure out how to best support their kids. And so I'm really excited to dive into that today with you. So good. Thanks. Thank you for joining me. So what are some, I mean, let's dive right in. What are some, what's some advice that you can give to parents who have kids that are heading off to college?Marcia Morris, MD 5:16 Well, I have a an expression that is, uses four Ts. It's tell, teach, talk and take action. And the tell part is really letting your kids know that you love them, you're there for them, you support them, they can call you any time. And it's really important to say that because kids say, Oh, I go into college, I should be totally on my own, but you're a good sounding board for them. So tell them you're available, you should teach them about some of the challenges that they could face, whether it's related to availability of substances, like alcohol, and kind of setting limits for themselves, but also teach them about mental health issues. Because unfortunately, rates of depression and anxiety are going up in college. And so you, if your child is experiencing this, you want them to get help as soon as possible. So talking openly about mental health is really important teaching them about that. Talk regularly. When you go, your child goes to college, or it could be like talking on the phone doing a video chat. I know there's a lot of texting going on. But there is value to having that either phone contact or face to face contact at least once a week, if not more the first year just to see how they're doing because it's a very...the first year is a pretty vulnerable time. And take action if you think something really bad is going on. And that could be visiting your child at the school if they just sound really bad. Well, that might be the last step. The first step might be saying, Hey, I'd like to speak with your RA and check in with them and maybe talk to both of you because I I'm concerned about you. But But things can, things can be really stressful and kids can get in a vulnerable place. And sometimes kids even stopped going to class. So it's if that's happening, if something seems like your child is very depressed, it's it's time for a visit to the school. So that's the take...you hope you that that doesn't happen. Or it might be a visit that weekend to check in. It may not be that dramatic, it might be Hey, you know, you sound like you're having a tough time. I'd love to just visit over the weekend and check in. I like that. Yeah, calling every day even if you're think someone's in a bad spot. Yeah,Hannah Choi 7:49 I like the story that you shared in your book about I think the girl was called Sarah. And just her experience, how her mom kind of went through that process that you just explained. And, and I and I really I liked, I liked hearing that story, because I felt like, I felt like she supported. She She helped her daughter both figure out how to solve it by herself and gave her some actual nice support for her as well. SoMarcia Morris, MD 8:20 right and you don't want you know, you might need to come and visit but you don't want to be there all the time. But it it it just there might be some moments in the college experience where students need more help. And hopefully, when that's happening, your student is already speaking with a therapist or a psychiatrist. And it's worthwhile encouraging your student to sign a HIPPA release of information form so that you can the you your child and the psychiatrist or the therapist can talk together and problem solving. Find out what's going to help your student get through their the crisis they might be experiencing.Hannah Choi 9:04 And do you do you ever find in your experience where the student doesn't want the parent involved but still needs that support?Unknown Speaker 9:16 Sometimes if someone's having a severe problem, they don't want the parents involved at the beginning. But I would say in almost all instances if things if they're not feeling better, they're more depressed, they're having trouble functioning. Most of the time they'll allow a family member or a friend and might not be the parent but they they will allow someone someone that that but so they might say oh I can handle this on my own I'm fine. And a year later they're still struggling. And they say yeah, let's call my... dad and get him involved. So but it's you can't force it on someone and legally the only way you can call a parent with about a student's consent is if there is an immediate risk of danger to self or others. And maybe twice in 30 years, I've done that it's such a rare event. And it has to be really important to talk with other people and get even legal counsel and make sure you're not overstepping the bounds of the law, because you really want to protect people's confidentiality. But most most students at some point, recognize you they can't go at it alone. If their depression is really bad, they need to involve someone else for support.Hannah Choi 10:33 Yeah. And so that, that makes me think that the importance of maintaining a good relationship with your child when they're away at school, and so how do you what do you suggest for parents for ensuring that happen? Unknown Speaker 10:49 Well, I have another acronym. It's love. Hannah Choi 10:54 Oh, I love it. Marcia Morris, MD 10:55 So the L is laugh and enjoy. And the point of that is, you have to have a good just have a fun relationship with your child, it's not always going to be fun, you're, you're not their best friend, you're still their parent, but But you have to have that enjoyment together, because they're not going to listen to you otherwise, right? You know, a show, there might be a show you watch together, if when they're home, take a walk together, it can't be all about, you need to do this. Hannah Choi 11:22 Yeah, you need to connect with them. Unknown Speaker 11:24 We right we have to have that initial kind of bond, this the bond makes sure there's that loving bond first before you can do anything other, otherwise, your kids aren't gonna want to listen to you. But anyways, the other thing that I think it's really important for parents to is, O, part of love observe. We can get very wrapped up in our kids, and we think they're the greatest thing on earth. And sometimes we don't see when they're having an issue or they're struggling with something, we want to think everything's good. And there are some parents who are negative and just find fault. But try to find that that happy medium of just seeing your kid seeing - Are they making friends at school? Are they Is it the end of freshman year, and they're still very lonely, and they haven't made a friend and that that's a time where you might make some try to get them connected with a counseling center or encourage them to join clubs. But are they making the development are they developing academically and socially? But see, see how you think they're doing and then then also, but validate where they're really are shining and progressing. And let's say they got a C in a class and they they took a similar class next semester, and they worked hard and got a tutor and got an A, like, say, Wow, that's so you know, I saw you do that, that's, I saw you put the effort in, that's really great. And also validate when they're, they're having a tough time. And, like, I think when I went to college, it was easier than what my kids, I just in general, less stressful than when my kids went to college. So sometimes parents have a tendency said, Oh, it wasn't that bad when I went to college, but some things are just harder. Now. It's more competitive, it's harder to get into grad school. So validate that there might be struggles, but also, the last part of love is encourage, even if they're struggling and there, you still encourage them problem solve. I use that word a lot. But problem solved. If you're really stuck, say, Listen, I want to sit down with you and look at we'll go on the website of school and let's think about what resources you can do to you know, make this work. And so that it's really important to you don't want to be totally you don't want to say goodbye or going to college. But most don't. Most parents are pretty involved now. Yeah, but but it's it's important. You don't want to be overly involved either.Hannah Choi 14:00 Right? You have to find a good balance. Marcia Morris, MD 14:02 Yeah, right. But but you do. I think kids need a lot of encouragement toHannah Choi 14:08 Yeah, I mostly work with college age students, for my executive function coaching clients. And this is all sounding very familiar to me experiencing like challenges freshman year, and then heading into sophomore year with a little bit more support, you know, from a coach or from like, mom had to step in and help a little bit and now and then they then they really start to do well with a little extra support.Marcia Morris, MD 14:37 So right and I like you know and I your company does great coaching I know that and and sometimes there's something called Success Coaching on campus. It's not at every school but though they will they those coaches will take a look at students holistically and see how they're doing socially, academically and often they can access the grades. And sometimes students, if they're doing badly might not want to admit it. So they'll just sit with a student be very supportive and direct them, they might direct them to a different major, some kids start, it's actually I read something, at least 30% of students switch majors, at least one time, I've heard a range of statistics, but it's very common to switch majors. So they might have helped them switch majors, they might suggest a different club to join. So that guidance is so helpful.Hannah Choi 15:38 Yeah, right, helpful. I know, I always encourage my clients take advantage of your academic advisor. Or if you qualify for services at the Disability Resource Center, go and get to know them, even if you don't go regularly just know what they offer. And, and so is that is that something that you recommend to your students as well? Marcia Morris, MD 15:59 Absolutely, absolutely. For all the patients in our clinic, we generally encourage them to sign up for the Disability Resource Center for whether they have anxiety, depression, or ADHD. Because they you never know when they're going to need the resources. Sometimes they they register, we have to write a letter and they submit it and they register. And they may not even use it, but then there might be a point where they need it. And the accommodations could include time and a half for testing or testing in a quiet room. And then to get additional accommodations. It's more of a kind of a discussion with the Disability Resource Center about whether they can hand and work late. And and so there's Yeah, it's a process and that has benefited many students that I've worked with over the years. Yeah, very appreciative of the disability resource centers on campus.Hannah Choi 16:57 Yeah, that was that's always my one of my first questions for anyone who might qualify for services there. Have you checked in with them? Have you gotten to know them. And I saw that a lot when I worked in, in, in the office that I worked at is sometimes some semesters kids needed it, you know, for everything and other semesters they didn't. But just having itMarcia Morris, MD 17:20 Right, and with mental health issues, with some mental health issues, there could be an exacerbation of symptoms, ADHD, tends to be pretty steady. And you know, what kind of some of the issues are with depression, something might happen in someone's life, and they might have a more severe episode and need more accommodations at that moment. Get registered, and then going back in and, you know, adding accommodations can be very helpful. One thing I was going to suggest also is students should register at the very beginning of the year. We had talked before about how with COVID. It's sometimes it's there's students have been more overwhelmed, at least on our campus, they're accessing the disability resource center. Yeah. But so you want to get ahead of the line as much as possible. Because if you wait till the middle or end of the semester, it can be hard to get an appointment to discuss options. Yeah. And also counseling services. Hannah Choi 18:25 Yeah, yeah. And if you, the student, are feeling overloaded or stressed, because it's midterms, you adding an additional appointment of getting to know the place is just an additional thing to do. If you've already connected with them during the time where you're not stressed out schools just beginning, then it's, it's gonna be a little easier for you won't feel like such a hurdle.Marcia Morris, MD 18:48 That's absolutely true. Yeah. Hannah Choi 18:51 So speaking of depression and anxiety, do you are you and COVID are you seeing a difference? Pre and Post COVID?Marcia Morris, MD 19:00 Well, yes, absolutely. And but what's been interesting and unfortunate is the trend has been upwards even before COVID. But in 2020, there's a national survey called the Healthy Mind study that's been tracking rates of depression and anxiety on college campuses. And so, in 2021, the study found that 41% of students screened positive for depression. And that's what's actually high number and 34% for anxiety. It uses a screening test. And again, the students who might take the survey perhaps they might have more issues anyways, but yeah, nonetheless, the trend has been upward. And the rate that is that rate for depression is double what it was in 2014, and the rate of anxiety is up by 50%. So that's a huge, huge increase. And we actually, I worked with a research group and we did a study that showed the rate of depression combined with anxiety, like having both. We use Healthy Minds data, by the way, but it has doubled since 2013. So, so and so we see more students experiencing the symptoms. It's not just happening in college, though we've there's been an increase of depression and anxiety and high school, but it is. So the COVID certainly made things harder. And I know it's a sign of the times there are stressful things going on in the Yeah, yeah, the economy. And COVID was just hard for everyone. But there's hope people can feel better. They can do therapy, they can, if needed, take medication, they can exercise, it's not going to cure depression, but it certainly helps really. I was gonna say one other thing, though, related to the depression and anxiety. I think the biggest problem of COVID was the social isolation where kids were, for safety reasons. And we didn't know how to handle COVID like students, high school and college students were often isolated. And that in that instance, their social skills fell behind. They were lonely loneliness can increase anxiety and depression. And what's interesting is now they're back. They're in class, they're interacting. But they're having some more anxiety about the interactions. It feels different. And I think it's the same for people outside of college.Hannah Choi 21:47 Oh, absolutelyMarcia Morris, MD 21:48 We're all adjusting. So but so, I'm a big supporter of therapy, individual, group therapy. And I think I want to encourage students to take advantage of those resources, whether it's on campus or off campus to deal with any, like strong feelings of depression and anxiety. And that would be like the first line of treatment before going to medication. Yeah.Hannah Choi 22:15 Yeah. And and every campus out there is going to have some kind of support center for students. And it can be hard to take that first step of making the phone call or going and walking in the door, but or maybe it's virtual, maybe it can be held virtually now. Do you guys do virtual, which can make it easier?Marcia Morris, MD 22:39 Yes. During the, during the first year of the COVID pandemic, I was doing 100% virtual psychiatry, working from home. Yeah, I'm back in the office. But what is very interesting to me, is that a lot of students like the virtual, you're good at technology, if they don't want to drive across to the apartment and deal with parking. Yeah, they might be. I sometimes work with medical students, they're on rotations. They can go into an office and do their session and then go back to work. In my opinion that telehealth has been a silver lining of the pandemic where we've we've improved those resources.Hannah Choi 23:25 So if a student or if a parent feels like their child, or a student feels like they want to take advantage of therapy on campus, who would be their first person to go to?Marcia Morris, MD 23:39 They should call the counseling center on campus directly. And then they would generally they either might speak with someone on the phone or see someone. And what's happened on a lot of campuses, the therapy is tended to be more short term. It does vary from campus to campus, so some will do long term therapy. So this, the student needs to maybe go on the website, see what the services are, and decide what what they need. So it might be doing some short term therapy on campus in transitioning off campus or doing a telehealth kind of therapy or psychiatry. I like one of the things I like about my job on campus in particular is I get to see students from freshman year and is through. Yeah, it was psychiatry, it's hard to do short term treatment because they might be on medicine for a while, right. So so we really they really do need, you know, consistent follow up. But I do think also some students would benefit from long term therapy and I would like to see campuses make that more available to students. I know the resources are limited and they're being stretched, but I think it's so important for young adults to get therapy early on to prevent problems getting more serious. So I'd like to see more access to both therapy and psychiatry on campus. And if not on campus, and even through through community mental health centers with affordable resources, I think, nationally, we need to really get young adult mental health improved.Hannah Choi 25:23 Absolutely, I completely agree. Marcia Morris, MD 25:26 But, but parents can get involved in trying to figure out what where the resources are. And because it's, if you're depressed, it's hard to kind of work through situations. And the other thing I wanted to mention is a lot of campuses have a case manager, who might be may or may not be a social worker, but they can cut, they can help the student connect with resources. Sometimes the case manager is in the counseling center. Sometimes it's might be in the Dean of Students Office. But there's each campus runs a different site, it's very, very as you work varies tremendously. But if you need to find a helper to connect you, that's the key to and the parent can be critical in that process.Hannah Choi 26:15 And so you mentioned medication, how does? How do how do medications come into play here, and how can parents support their child if they either are on medication already, or might need to look, go down that path.Marcia Morris, MD 26:30 One way they can support the students is if they're coming to school on medicine, to try to facilitate them having continuous treatment, because one of the worst things that can happen, especially with antidepressants is stopping the medicine. Right? If someone wants to come off of a medicine, they need to taper slowly and work with a provider. So continuity of care is extremely important when they're coming to college. The other issue is the sometimes parents have doubts about the need for medicine, or they worry about side effects. And with antidepressants, by the way, there is a blackbox warning, talking about increased risk of suicidal behavior. Teenagers up until 25. The study showed that the concerning time is really under 18. But nonetheless, occasionally, when a young adult starts any antidepressant they can have kind of new suicidal thinking. So the important thing is, let's say a parent is said I don't want says to the child, I really feel uncomfortable with you starting any antidepressant, it's worthwhile to ask the child to say, you know, let's all meet with the psychiatrist so I can learn about how these medicines work. And know like we have an on-call system. So if the students having a problem, they can reach us, we're not just going to hand them a medicine and say there you go! We don't do that. But what we do do is that we do have follow up visits with the student and more at the beginning to see how are you feeling on this medicine? Are you having side effects? Is this the right dose, and I increase medicine very slowly, because you do not want to cause side effects in college students affecting concentration or energy level. So So parents, if they're having worries about the medicine, or even if they feel the student is not doing well, on the medicine can say, I want you to let the psychiatrist know that you need you need to call your psychiatrist or I'd love to meet with you and this psychiatrist because I'm observing things that concern me. But again, don't stop the medicine.Hannah Choi 28:50 That's really, that's the takeaway. And then that reminds me of like, I had a client who one thing that we were working on was making sure that he had reminders and a system to help him remember to get his refill, so that that wouldn't happen. And so that can be something that has to be learned to by the student.Marcia Morris, MD 29:14 And and you're bringing up, right. And also in the past, the parents might have picked up. The student has to, and there's an issue coming up now and hopefully it's getting better, but there's an Adderall. Sure. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:28 I read about that. Yeah. Marcia Morris, MD 29:30 So what we're doing now with students is we're saying make sure you fill the prescription right on time. And then sometimes we end up calling around to pharmacies to see where they haven't. I hope that's gonna get better soon. And what we usually are able to find it's at somewhere, but that can be a challenge. And so let's say a student goes to the pharmacy and they don't have the Adderall they need to call the psychiatrist and sometimes there's a psychiatric nurse practitioner and my thought, like, if you need to call the clinic and say, I'm facing this challenge do I've called a few pharmacies, they don't have it, can you tell me where to go? Or what to do?Hannah Choi 30:15 Yeah. And so that's something that comes up a lot for college students is learning how to ask for help take advantage of resources. And it's and it's okay to ask for help. And there are people out there that really want to support you. So that's a good example of you might have to do that.Marcia Morris, MD 30:34 Yeah, right. And, and even for my patients, sometimes, though, they might be having a side effect. But they might wait to tell me until the next appointment, I said, you can feel free to call and we've structured our clinics. So nurses will take the preliminary call and then let let us know if there's something serious going on. So you know, we tried, we try to, you know, have a team of resources, we even train our support staff to kind of figure out where to triage different calls. That's good. And yeah, we have a really, I'm really happy with the team I work with there. It's it's a very caring team. And that's also Yeah, important to make sure your student is working with a group of people or one person who seems to, you know, care.Hannah Choi 31:20 Yeah. And then that goes back again to getting in early and meeting with the people in that office and getting to know that team and having them get to know you and your child and making sure that you that they are familiar with your case. And it can just really help in times of crisis, I imagine definitely.Marcia Morris, MD 31:42 I will add one more last thing about medicine, for antidepressants, which actually treat both depression and anxiety. The question often is asked, How long will my child be on this medicine, it's pretty hard to predict. But I can say that I've had students who, let's say, have pretty bad anxiety and depression. And they do a good course of what we call cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the gold standard treatment for depression and anxiety. And sometimes after a good course of therapy and making life changes, like finding the right major, finding the right friend group, they find they can taper off of the medicine, but with the help of a psychiatrist, and I've seen that happen. The important thing is, though, generally, if someone's on an antidepressant, they they stay on it for approximately nine months to a year, because that's the timeframe it takes to have a full recovery, particularly from depression. Okay, so, so but but it doesn't have to mean forever. It really doesn't. Because I know, and I'm sorry about that. Hannah Choi 31:42 Yeah, I was gonna say that I'm sure that's comforting to parents who are concerned about their child being on medication, that it's not a forever thing. Marcia Morris, MD 32:37 And the only time it might, it's might be forever as if someone has a more severe mental health problem, like severe bipolar disorder. Sometimes that requires lifelong medicine. And that's about 1% of the population, but, but when people do well, you can keep them on lower doses, and they'll have fewer side effects and utilize therapy along with it, though, you can do it the way in that people can function and not feel overmedicated.Hannah Choi 33:40 Yeah, that's good. Yeah, find like, again, finding that balance, and making sure that the choices that the life choices that they're making, in addition to medication are also being supportive, which reminds me you just said something about a friend group. And it reminds me of a client of mine once who had a friend group that that was, was not a healthy friend group for her. And, and so and so she changed her friend group and now and you know, and then ended up having a much better experience. And that makes me think about the social experience of kids in college. And how important that is,Marcia Morris, MD 34:20 It is equally important to the academic experience is all about your social development, deciding which friends you want to hang out deciding which romantic partners you want to be with, and learn and learning how to deal deal with people in difficult situations. And having fun, I mean, college should be fun, too. It shouldn't be a total grind. It is hard. I mean I I studied pretty hard in college, but I also had some fun. And so it's important for students to find the activities they enjoy. It might be intramural sports, it might be going to to church or temple or a mosque, it, it might be. I'm trying to think of the interesting groups, I think there was an acrobatics group one time. You know, like,Hannah Choi 35:13 There's something for everyone,Marcia Morris, MD 35:15 Some of the clubs, but but it you have to find something, it's important to have fun. And that's, that's, it's just part of life, we should all have fun. But maybe do your studying during the weekend, have fun on the weekends, don't have fun, every won't be able to you know, pass your classes. School should be fun. I think the academic part there should be joy in the academics too. And it's it's important to find what you really like. And so if you're, you know, kind of pre med and you're think that's what I should do, but you say, I really liked this. It's a long, four years undergrad and four years of medical school and four years of residency to like,Hannah Choi 36:00 yeah, that's a long time. It's really,Marcia Morris, MD 36:03 But it's really important to find things you enjoy. And I think parents worry of my kid majors in English or history, they're not going to get a job. But in reality, kids get jobs doing social media for companies after graduation when they're majoring in English. It's so interesting, all the different things they do post graduation, but I think it's important to find a major you enjoy it, but still go to a Career Resource Center started. Yeah, as a sophomore beginning of junior year and start planning. Okay, I love this major. But here's I'm also going to think about a job after school. Or maybe it might be graduate school.Hannah Choi 36:43 Yeah, I was just thinking, Gosh, I don't think I went to the Career Center once when I should have done that. I'm very happy with my, my career, how it all worked out.Marcia Morris, MD 36:53 Imagine, you know, with the experience I have working with students with my kids, I said you need to go found me a little too much sometimes, but it kind of helped to you. In terms of your that you have this resource on your campus? Use it take advantage of it.Hannah Choi 37:11 Yeah, yep. I, whenever I start working with a college student, I always say to them, okay, yes, you're in, you're in college for academics. But let's make it so that your academics are, you know, as not easy as possible. But let's figure out ways systems, let's build systems, so that you have more time for your socializing, because you're right. I mean, yes, college is about academics, but it really is also about finding about who you are as a person, and learning social skills and learning the kind of people that you'd like to be around and the kind of people you need to avoid, and learning how to ask for help and become part of a group and how to function in a group. And you can't learn all that if you just do the academic. And so you need to leave time for the, that social aspect. Marcia Morris, MD 37:46 And studies actually, so show that a sense of social belonging on campus is correlated with better grades. So parents who were worried about that say, yeah, they might actually say have time to restore themselves and have some fun. They might do better academically.Hannah Choi 38:24 Yes, yes. Yep. And that's why it's so and also how you said, the adding joy to your academics, and finding something that works for you. Yes, you're gonna have to take classes that that are in your major, that that don't work for you. But if you can build systems, and figure out the tools and the strategies that you need to use to make it more bearable to get through those classes, take advantage of your resources can just make it everything so much more enjoyable. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't cover today?Marcia Morris, MD 39:01 Yes, one one last thing. When your child is applying to colleges, again, take a close look and see what kind of what kind of coping skills they have where they thrive. Because some kid I have, I have one child who went to a small private college I have another tiles we went to a large state school because their needs were different. And they both they thrived in the those settings they were the right settings for them. So that's important as you're in that you can you know often work with the guidance counselor at school it's now popular and a high hire people to help with the whole application process. But if you do hire someone, find someone who's not just looking at all the best school your kid will get. Yeah, really look at your child and see where they're going to thrive. And um, the the last so I'm talking about kind of getting into school and I just also want to talk About the exit from school that yeah, that can be tricky time too. And sometimes the challenge is some kinds of classes for certain majors like engineering can get super hard at the very end, there might be a design project where you have to develop this whole system. And so that's a time to check in with your child to and see how they're doing. Because for some kids that last year can be pretty stressful, stressful, and there can be some tough classes to get into. And the other stress is for kids who haven't figured out what they want, right? Might want to go to medical school, but haven't fulfilled the requirements, help your child calm down and say, Listen, you can do a gap year you can apply to med school or another graduate school, you don't have to go go straight to grad school. So kind of paying attention to the transition into college. And the transition out is really, those are kind of tricky times where kids might need more support.Hannah Choi 41:00 And also helping helping kids realize that you don't have to follow the sort of traditional path that, that you feel like everyone else is following and because not everyone is following it and not and that's not the right path for everyone. And yeah, and taking the time to figure out what what would be best for me and what would be best for my happiness. And I have a friend who he did two years of college, and then he took a few years off, and now he's back as a student in his later 20s. And he's loving it so much more. He's having a completely different experience than he did when he was in his late teens and early 20s. And he's so glad that he didn't follow that sort of traditional path of you know, finishing the four years. And so it's, it's, and I've heard that from multiple people.Marcia Morris, MD 41:51 Yeah, yeah. And also you have for parents take good care of yourself. Because one thing I've observed with young people, they're not going to open up to you, if they think you're stressed out, or you're going to take some deep breaths, reassure your kids, everything's gonna be okay, reassure yourself, everything's gonna be okay. But it's really important to stay calm, because your kid cares about you a lot, too, and they don't want to stress you out, but just can handle things, and you guys will work things out together.Hannah Choi 42:22 Yeah, remember, I really liked how you address that in the book about how sometimes in your book, how sometimes kids will hold off on sharing something with their parents, because they they don't want to, you know, add out a burden to them or disappoint them or anything. And, and, yeah, and so that goes back to what we were talking before about maintaining that relationship with your child and the trust and keeping that rapport. It's so important.Marcia Morris, MD 42:52 You know, and who have been through grad school and you're in grad school, and that it's interesting, because the relationships continue. It's changes a lot as kids get into their late 20s. But that parent child relationship is really important. Yeah, we got to maintain the positive relationship.Hannah Choi 43:11 Yeah, it's what I've talked about with with a number of our other guests on the podcast is how, like, different strategies to you know, keep that relationship and how just just being with your child validating, like you said earlier, and just letting them know that you're there if if they need you, and that it's okay to share. And yeah, it's, it's, it's, I keep hearing that from everyone that I'm talking to. So it's something that's worth putting effort into and trying so. Well, thank you so much. It's just been a great conversation full of really good ideas. And I feel like there's a lot of like actionable advice in there for people. So yeah. And where can where can you mentioned a little bit in the beginning, but where can our listeners find you?Marcia Morris, MD 44:01 Well, I have a website, and my name is spelled Marcia M-a-r-c-i-a, but MarciaMorrismd.com. And my book, the campus cure is available on Amazon and other websites. But it's easiest to get it through Amazon. And I'm also if you Google college wellness Psychology Today, you can see my blog, I'm having a new blog coming out and it probably this weekend called "Dear College Student, You Deserve to Be Happy. You know, I want college students to be able to find joy in their experience, even though times are challenging right now.Hannah Choi 44:46 That's wonderful. Yeah. Life is life is more fun with joy in it. Yes. All right. Well, thank you, Marcia.Marcia Morris, MD 44:53 Right. It's great talking with you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 44:56 Yes, you too. And That's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to Marcia's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Marcia helpful. I know I will be listening again when it's time for my daughter to go off to college. We hope to help as many people as we can with the important conversations we have on focus forward. So please share our podcast with your colleagues, your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningTranscribed by https://otter.ai

On this week's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All, who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the D.C. area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book (which you'll hear me gush about) called the Neuroscience of Memory. This topic is especially interesting to me because working memory is one of the core Executive Functions we use everyday. My own working memory is my biggest EF achilles heel, which is probably why math and I don't get along and why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But, over the years, I've learned what strategies help me the most. Talking with Sherrie helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to remember things during the day and that there are concrete things we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn, supports our memory. Listen in to learn more about memory, the brain, and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently as long as we possibly can.Here are some resources related to our conversation: Learn more about Dr. Sherrie AllCenters for Cognitive WellnessSherrie All, PhDThe Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, PhDLearn More About MemoryWorking Memory Underpins Cognitive Development, Learning, and EducationMemory - Harvard HealthCognitive Health and Older Adults | National Institute on AgingWorking Memory: Take Note of Your Child's ChallengesHow to Memorize More Effectively (When Technology is Not an Option!)Memorization Strategies – Learning Center at UNC7 Ways to Retain More of Every Book You Read by James ClearContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningEp 16_ Improve Your Memory_ Neuroscience Strategies for a He...Thu, Dec 15, 2022 10:24AM • 58:42SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, strategies, memory, brain, book, neuropsychologist, called, attention, dementia, learning, important, exercise, brain cells, stress, systems, helping, alzheimer, hannah, clinicians, sleepSPEAKERSSherrie All, PhD, Hannah ChoiHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of si

Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.Show NotesBrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.comYour Kid's Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delmanAn Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.comChan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19While you probably know by now that I am an executive function coach, you may not know that I work as a coach for a company called Beyond Booksmart. I got thinking about the story behind the company and how executive function skills are built into the running of a company that specializes in executive function. I invited our CEO Michael Delman to join me for a conversation about just that. We wound our way through a variety of topics, and Michael shared with me the wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a student, teacher, founder of a charter school, published author and CEO of beyond booksmart. Listen to learn about how important executive function skills are to Michael, how he leads his company and how he believes that good executive function skills are the key to a successful future for the children of today. Hannah Choi 01:15Hi, Michael, thank you for joining me today. Can you just first start off by introducing yourself a little bit for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Michael Delman 01:24I'm Michael Delman. I'm the CEO of Beyond BookSmart and an educator for about 30 years now. So, in this because I love it. And dad of two girls, both of whom graduated this year - one high school, one college. You know, the usual I have a dog of course, Ultimate Frisbee aficionado and I founded a charter school. I wrote a book on I don't know, yeah, just...Hannah Choi 01:56There's got to be some great stories in there about executive function challenges and, and what led you to where you are.Michael Delman 02:04So, choosing the dog? Absolutely. Hannah Choi 02:09What do you have? Michael Delman 02:09We have a Cavapoo. Great little dog. But yeah, actually, yeah, no, actually, I'll tell you the story real quick. So my wife was a holdout on getting the dog as so often happens. And of course, now she's the dog's biggest fan. But my daughter younger daughter always wanted a dog. And we tried everything, you know, pros and cons list, what were the criteria that must be met in order to have the dog. And finally it came down to just pure psychological manipulation, where I, one day said to my wife, "What if? What if our daughter had a tragic accident, and she never had had a dog?" And my wife was like, "Okay, you win. That's it." So, when it came down to it, the rational left brain logical whatever it was just like that one image of like, our daughter being like, devastated and never having had a puppy that just did it so. So our daughter saved up money and paid for the dog herself. Even as kid and yeah, so there we go.Hannah Choi 03:20I'll have to make sure that my kids and husband don't listen to this episode, because I am the last holdout on getting another dog our dog passed away three years ago. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And so we have to make sure that they don't listen to this episode.Michael Delman 03:35But you know what it's like to have a dog? So you know that? Yes, you know, the joy of it? And yes, no,Hannah Choi 03:40I do. Yeah. Yeah. So you are the CEO of an executive function skills company. So what is executive function and executive function skills mean to you?Michael Delman 03:50Yeah, it's way to make a living. Hannah Choi 03:56That's why you're in it, for the money??? Michael Delman 04:01Actually, honestly, it's the only way that anyone can make a living is with I think decent executive function skills. Hannah Choi 04:07Yeah, you got that, right. Michael Delman 04:09So we're in there to help a lot of people, definitely myself included in kind of the skills, tools, orientation that that it provides. So executive functioning skills are all about self management, the ability to regulate yourself to kind of, you know, understand how to get calm and focused, and, and organized and prioritized and then really know how to get things done. I think, I think, you know, a lot of us have ideas of what we want to do. And I know many people who have a lot more ambition or talent than I do, but I think my strength is probably making use of whatever executive function skills I do have, and then executing on on the skills you know, On on the on the vision. So that's EF skills let you, they really let you capitalize on, on whatever strengths you do have and kind of work around your challenges.Hannah Choi 05:13So what are your strengths?Michael Delman 05:16I've got probably two, maybe three. Um, the first is, I'm really good at prioritizing, I tend to clear away the BS. And there will be times where my inbox is just super loaded and just way too much in it. But that's a price I'm willing to pay to make sure I've dedicated time for my priorities, you know, a new idea, reviewing key data points, making sure someone on the team gets the support they need. So focusing on priorities really, really, really critical. The second is, I'm not afraid to work hard. So, you know, pretty good at getting started on things that I don't like the task initiation piece, and then the sustained attention. So call that one or two more. And then really the the final piece and the one that I think is probably most integral to my ability to make progress is the reflective metacognitive piece. So I make a lot of mistakes, I make more mistakes than the average person for sure. No, no, for real, I do. Foot and Mouth Disease is like they name that like, I literally they have a picture of me next to that. AndHannah Choi 06:34A.K.A. the Michael Delman disease?Michael Delman 06:36he's really good at getting the foot out and then going, you know, now that we've just done that, let's talk about how we can prevent that. Let's talk about what we could learn from that. So fortunately, people seem to be generally forgiving. When you acknowledge your your faux pas, faux pauses, I don't know what the plural for anyway. But the numerous faux pas in kind of my daily regimen, so I find that, that there's a certain humility that I have and need to have, that allows me to be an ongoing learner. And so that's that's like a real, honestly, it's a pleasure for me, like making mistakes doesn't really faze me that much.Hannah Choi 07:24And I think that when, when someone is so when a leader especially is so openly comfortable with talking about their challenges, or talking about mistakes that they've made, it, it gives, it gives, it probably gives a lot of people permission to think, oh, okay, if he, if he can make that mistake, own it and then learn from it, then then, then it probably helps people feel like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. I feel like that's...Michael Delman 07:54 Yeah, I appreciate you saying it like that, I think that's become a more conscious aspect of that kind of that tendency. Initially, for me, it was just simply almost a almost like a defensive mechanism for me, like, a necessity to, like, apologize all the time, or, you know, and then it shifted over time, from just apologizing to apologizing and trying to make improvements. Over time, it's been a conscious way to lead of, hey, we all make mistakes. Let me tell you a story, you know, and people like, you did them again. And that was that I did that. So it's I don't know if, you know, that's entirely good or not. But overall, I've found that, yeah, we all need a little bit of freedom to learn, and you can't really learn if you're constantly afraid of failing. So I think that that, I do think that that's a good thing coming from my position, as the leader of the company that I'm doing it certainly we have the greatest understanding of in total lack of judgment of any of our clients, and no, in addition to our staff, who were learning, make mistakes along the way. And we're good with that. We're okay with that. I do think that in my seat in the company, and I think for company leaders, there is a limit to what you can allow in, uh, in your staff, if they're not able to or willing to look at, you know, areas for improvement, because that is we're asking that of our clients, we truly have to be able to model it. And I you know, it's one of the things when we hire, you know, some of our core values include courage and openness, and, you know, integrity. So if you're going to live those things and be a Part of the staff, you know, like that that's really important. It may not be as absolutely critical in every place in the world, they know what matters for us and what we do.Hannah Choi 08:36So, and is that? Is that something that you have learned? Like, did you when you first started working out? Did you feel that way? Or is that something that has kind of developed and, and grown over the years of your experience what's feel which like, like feeling those those core values like those, the, you know, the asking that of your staff like to be to be to have courage and to be open.Michael Delman 10:38(coughs) I'm sorry, recovering from a joint bout of COVID and pneumonia, not a not recommended for anyone. So, I think I always felt intuitively, that those were important things they were when I was a school principal. And here, I knew that naming values was important. And humility was always there, growth was always there. I think it really took on an extensive amount of work that our leadership team did with feedback from literally our entire staff, to name the values more explicitly and simply, and to be able to kind of elucidate what each of those meant, in practice. And so I think once you've done that, and involved everybody, then holding people to that is part of your agreement is, this is just what we all we all understand. So I do think having those things explicit, is is more important, or adds a certain, you know, gives you a little more backbone to hold people to it. So, you know, that said, we're fortunate, I mean, we've we've really got, we've got the people, so it's not, that aren't huge, you know, huge problems that we need to immediately address. It's just, it does remind us all of when we and we bring up those words in our conversation, you know, like, Yeah, is that really integrity? Is that Is that does that really align? You know, are we you know, are we doing the right thing by everybody in that decision? That kind of thing?Hannah Choi 12:27 So, right. So, when you first started out, like, how did you, how did you get to where you are now? And how did you learn all the things that you've learned to be where you are, I've been with you for a while, and I it's a great company to work for? And I just like how did how did we get here?Michael Delman 12:50Well, um, I guess, kind of, I'll speed it up. As you know, I'll just start with the kind of the origin story, probably my my black lesson plan book from being a school teacher, everything I did as a teacher, every lesson, I just always would take notes afterward on what could have been better. And I think that that, that, that reflectiveness, that real eye for professional growth, professional development was really foundational. It was something where I knew I was going to, I was probably going to fail as teacher, if I didn't do that I needed to, I need to figure out things like classroom management, and good lesson planning and those sorts of things. And I was determined, because it was a dream, it was a passion. And I had a rough first year, and I was, I did not want to, I don't want to live like that. I want to have really great teaching experiences and great learning experiences. So the charter school is next. And that really emerged again, almost as a necessity because it was, I felt that there was more that I want to accomplish than could be done just under the auspices of my particular room, for example, like, kids didn't see connections between the subjects. I wanted that to be seen. Kids were kind of going through the motions a lot, just because whatever, they're just in school that because they have to be I want school to be a place where they could see like, Oh, this is exciting. I'm learning I'm doing something of value. So that was the charter school. That was super exciting partner within Outward Bound, kind of affiliated group and it was just really great. And then that wasHannah Choi 14:36Waid, can I stop you for one second? So you went from teaching what for one year to opening a charter school?Michael Delman 14:42Eight years. I taught for eight. Yeah, so though, but those eight you know, during those eight years, it was there were constant lessons and, and so much to learn. I mean, you could learn, you could teach and learn for forever, you know, decades and decades. I have friends who still teach and always learning. But for me, there came a point where I thought, I need to have a school where everybody is kind of sharing the same same values, the same enthusiasm, the same perspective on what a school is capable of. And, and so that school, which is still around doing great, it's a, you know, I love that place and what it's all about, it's really extraordinary opportunity I had there, but then to kids, you know, into it, and for years and his principal and working all sorts of hours and days of the week that are not days, and hours that you should be working, I needed something a little more sane. And, and then I also was a little bit distant from, you know, like, the actual work. And so I want to be back on the ground more. So I started beyond booksmart different name at the time thinking outside the classroom. And, you know, and I started that, because we'd had kind of, uh, you know, how the schools have typically like a bell curve of students, right, you know, in terms of, you know, these your average kids easier. I see, well, we had more of a barbell, you know, like, it was, like, you know, we had kids that were all sorts of kids were twice exceptional, as we call them now, you know, smart, but scattered, and it just seemed that we drew kids that were in a lot of ways like me, that were, they really wanted to learn, but they had something in their way. And I've always had those challenges those those executive function challenges myself, and so it was a real pleasure to kind of like, figure that out, and to build a school that would create, like, really, really rich opportunities for deep research and work, but also provide all that support the necessary support, to enable that, that level of ambition to be, you know, to kind of be potentiate it. So that was over a period of several years. And then so Beyond BookSmart, emerged as a chance to really do something special for students without all the restrictions of those nightmarish bureaucratic reports you have to do, and many, many stakeholders instead is really focus on what does this person actually need. And it really, I didn't ever anticipate in the early days that it would be as big or as popular, it was just something that I felt I had to do. And the demand kept coming. You know, we expanded from middle school and high school to elementary and then college and then adults and, you know, new division now on its way that we're built. You know, it's been done for a bit now on on schools, and, and corporations, but it's just there are a lot of opportunities that that keeps seeming to evolve, because it feels like these are the skills people most need right now.Hannah Choi 18:21It, you know, I've been picking my kids up on the playground after school for the last six years. And when I, when people asked me, you know, what do you do for work? And I tell them, they, in the beginning, they never knew what I was talking about. And now when it comes up people, so many more people know what executive function skills are. And it's been really interesting to see, to measure the awareness through rather people know what I do for my job or not. So yeah,Michael Delman 18:57It is starting to make waves and you know, like the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, you know, which, you know, Zuckerberg of Facebook, whatever. Take away all the things to talk about on that. Just focusing on on this, they chose three areas to focus on reading, mathematics, and executive function skills. So that was a real acknowledgement from a group that you know, a large, large business, one of the world's biggest saying, this is really, really going to be so the critical 21st century skills, if we're going to even make it to the 22nd century as an intact civilization with, you know, where we are wrestling with problems that require a level of insight and discipline and focus and maturity, that metacognition metacognition, the emotional regulation, the impulse control, that we we really are, you know, we're seeing a lot of breakdown in the world and in our own country. And it's hard because breakdown leads to breakdown, you know, you see other people losing it and badly behaved and all over the place, he just just watch the news. These are the skills that I think can save us. I mean, I think they're the skills are truly I mean, on a personal level, they lead to much better personal success, and that's excellent, it's good for us, you know, any of us individually that are doing well, that's great. But they also really, I think, fundamental skills to the fabric of our, of our society, people who can look at more than one side have a, you know, have an argument, and, and be calm with that, you know, and, and people who can say, you know, I'm not going to make up facts, I'm gonna go with reality, I'm going to be paced, I'm going to do what's realistic, I'm going to compromise. So for the greater good. I mean, these are things that, you know, we hope for, and often don't see in our official elected leaders, for example, but we can do it on local levels, we can do it with each other, we can do it on a community basis. And, you know, take the politics out of it, and just have, as humans kind of think thoughtfully together. And, and so I think these executive function skills are the root of the familial success are the roots of community success. And obviously, they're the root of individual success. So, you know, if we contribute to that, then that's really like, that's amazing. That's a that's, that inspires me, right?Hannah Choi 21:46Yep. Something that I've said before, in, in, on the podcast, and that's something that I know a lot of us, probably every coach feels is that when we after a client graduates and they go out into the world, we hope that they can teach, teach their friends, or teach their siblings or their parents or somebody, something that they've learned, and maybe they just teach it through modeling. But just I love thinking about them being out in the world, and, and I sharing all that,Michael Delman 22:15yeah, and I even love the stories of kids teaching their own parents, you know, like, the kid learns something in one of our sessions, like the five finger breathing and, you know, some sort of way to self regulate, or the hand model the brain or, you know, what, neuroplasticity? Is any of that. And then the parents say, you know, this is really useful for me, do you think could I get the coaching to and, you know, or whether or not they need it, they see oh, my gosh, you know, it's pretty transformative. So, yeah, so good stories.Hannah Choi 22:49That comes up a lot, where, and when I was talking with Peg Dawson, about how parent adults, they feel like there's this pressure that they're that they should just already have that all figured out. And, and, and of course, we don't, or a real realization, like, oh, that's why, like, that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And that it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, or you know, anything is wrong with you. But, and then there's strategies and tools and things that you can learn to make it easier.Michael Delman 23:30And you were kind enough to ask me what my strengths were early. So apparently, you know, at least anyone listening might at least temporarily believe I've got straights. But but you know, when it comes to the areas of challenge, and, you know, what's kind of driven me to work on this stuff, emotional regulation, that's always been profoundly difficult for me. You know, I struggle with that, both because of ADHD and mental illness struggles that I had growing up. And these were not things that I necessarily wanted to learn. They were things that I had to so the self reg piece, learning to manage strong feelings really, really just for me, absolutely critical. Organization. Luckily, the camera's view is limited. It's not my forte, I work around it, I It's better than it used to be. It's good enough. I do what I must, but, you know, I tend to lean on my strengths and then the weaknesses, I've tend to develop compensatory strategies to work around. But I think, for all of us, you know, we definitely need we need to acknowledge that those areas of challenge that's okay. I mean, we all have, you know, we're don't have to be perfect. Hannah Choi 24:48And I think I think some of that reflection piece that you were talking about, it really comes into play there. And if you are able to stop and reflect and think about like Who Am I? And where am I in? What do I want? And where am I going? And am I happy with with this? And, and it's really difficult to do that. And it's also it also ends up being difficult because you often don't know the answer. Like you don't know...25:13I will tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. I never shared this on a podcast before or any interview. But when I was, I think six or seven years old, is one of my earliest memories came home. I had been picked on at school for just being me being me or kids being mean, or whatever it was, and, and I, my mom sat me down on the stairs, I remember we were like three or four stairs from the bottom. And, and I told her, she very empathetically said, "Well, what do you think you could do differently?" And it's very interesting, because on the one hand, it's a little bit, you know, I'm six or seven, I have no idea. You know? Secondly, it's, it's also it's like, well, what about the Oh, poor thing? You know, that must have been so hard. Let's go, let's go beat those kids up, you know? Hey, Mom, you know, me and dad, you know, come over, we beat the crap out of this. But I'm, it is one of my earliest memories, which is trying to figure out, oh, what could I do to improve the situation? Now, I think one of the key things, one of the reasons it was successful, was, as I said, it was said with some degree of empathy, there was a, it was probably more of the tone than the words just like, ah, you know, like, it could have just been that much just a little, Oh, sweetie, you know, well, what do you think, you know, maybe we are you, you know, could do that would, you know, or might might do differently? Yeah, I think that that was kind of taught to me at an early age is, you know, what do you control? What's within your power? So I, although, you know, we talked to Beyond BookSmart a lot about "knock before entering", we talked about kind of R before T, right, you know, "reach before teach" and, you know, "relationship before task", but the Relationship was there. And yeah, and the Reach was there. So I think that that made it easier, you know, that she could teach me because she'd already reached me. And I do think that that's, I think that is what we want to develop in our in our kids is, what is within your sphere of control your sphere of influence, and, you know, and not just your sphere of worry, right, you know, those those well known sphere so far. Otherwise, it's just, well, that person's a jerk that I'll tell you a funny story. I was in college, and I found myself in therapy. I was like, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much on my mind. And, and I complained about someone who is just a complete "beep", you know, can't say the word. And therapist said, "Michael, I'll tell you some, there's never a shortage of beeps." And honestly, you know, like, honestly, have anything said to me, like in that entire therapeutic experience, that was the one that resonated was never a shortage of that was what do I.Hannah Choi 28:31So what are you going to do? When are you going to do differently? Yeah, please. Yeah. I know, that's, you know, I see that a lot with my kids, you know, if they're struggling with a teacher that they don't like, or, you know, whenever it's such a, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's so important, because you're right, there's never a shortage of beeps, andMichael Delman 28:50never shortage in the world. I had a student I was coaching her years ago. And she was a senior, great kid. And, you know, I said, What's one of the things that you learned this term? And she said, Well, what I learned is that, at the end of the term, I am done with that teacher that I could not stand. But I'm never done with a grade that she gave me. And I was like, oh, you know what? Good for you. Yeah. And I figured it out. It doesn't really matter that you didn't love that teacher. It's, I mean, granted, it would have been a lot easier for her if it had been a teacher that understood her and empathize and connected and, you know, figured out the ways to make learning accessible for her all that stuff. But really best that she could do given that given the situation was, What could she do? So? Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:47So I'm just curious about more, to learn more about what it's like to be the leader of a company that that teaches people how to develop their executive function skills, does that impact you as a leader? And does it impact how you create your teams and how you structure the company even like down to meetings? Like, cuz I imagine you build executive function thought into all of that way more than other companies, might.Michael Delman 30:24We, we tend to hire people who have really good executive function skills. It just makes it easier because they'll do their jobs better than people that, you know, on average, you know, don't. Some of it is is, you know, some of it is really it's the people, and it's the structures, we definitely structure things. I guess, Hannah, you know, I'd probably look at a couple of aspects. The first is, we are definitely a learning organization, we're always, always inviting in like, an, you know, new consultants with new perspectives, to challenge us, because what you think, you know, and what was really effective, say, last year, or for the past two or three years, now, it needs some some rethinking, we tend to be pretty structured. And I'd say increasingly, so we've got really good dashboards to measure what are called KPIs or key performance indicators, to look at things like, you know, customer retention, and customer satisfaction, and really like predictive scores about customer health, and are we doing the things that they want and addressing their needs proactively? Those kinds of things on the one hand, so really like the right structures for, are we onboarding people in a way that they understand what this journey is, you know, that it's not a quick fix that it really is there, there's real work, and that's going to take time, those kinds of things. And then just the way we work with each other, the agendas, you know, every person I meet with, we have a color coded agenda, you know, with action items are highlighted with, you know, with due dates, etc. But then there has to be a place to keep track of all those dates. Otherwise, you have to scroll through too many places. So like with the school division, we have a pretty tight Gantt chart, you know, which are these long, measurable, you know, a lot a lot of rows on for every kind of key item key x, I'm in that initials of who's assigned it. In the core division, we use these quarterly goals, trackers, and we color code, how far along we are on each thing, each each major goal for the quarter for each department. I think it's also there's just the way that we communicate with each other, there's a lot of checking, preventing, assumption making. So you know, being sure that "Did that make sense?" Or, um, so there are a lot of pings directly from a document on clarifying questions. We use certain protocols where, you know, people present something, and then there are clarifying questions, probing questions. And then reflection from the person who did the presentation. So kind of these these tuning protocols are, there are shared mero boards where we brainstorm, and many people are working together. And then we're kind of quantifying what we have there for, like, that's how we did the core values as an example, to see which core values were consistently represented. And which ones were kind of anomalies that weren't really core? So there are I mean, there are so many tools, you know, out there, the ones I've mentioned, and, obviously, infinity, more of them. But it's, um, it's really a commitment to always figuring out how can we communicate effectively with each other. And honestly, with ourselves, like internally, like, you know, because you have all these great ambitions, and you can say, you're gonna do all these things, we can make a, you know, lengthy to do list and just not get to it. And again, that does come back to really get back to prioritizing what is it that is important enough that that's your focus, that's where you're dedicating time. And then these things are those are nice to do if you if you get to them, but it's not as critical. So yeah, I'd say that executive function skills are 100% infused into almost everything we do.Hannah Choi 34:46And that makes me think about how, how we were talking earlier about how if if everyone had access to this kind of knowledge, and even if you just think about leaders of companies, so leaders of companies See, they they know their business, but they might not know executive function skills, like your business is executive function skills. So you know that and so it's probably easier for you to build that into a company structure. So if people are like kids who, you know, don't like maybe they go to a school where, where executive function skills aren't explicitly taught, or if they, you know, I don't know, there's so many different areas, I just think I always wish that everyone could have access to it. And I know, I'm sure that's been a struggle for you, you know, wanting to provide access to everybody. But then being limited.Michael Delman 35:38While we have definitely gotten a lot of interest on the corporate side, and it's something that we will develop ultimately in a in a meaningful way. We really only do that on an, you know, on demand basis, we don't solicit it, but there is a sequence to things and the thing that is really my passion and focus right now, is our school division. That is my Yeah, I mean, it's just I know, our whole staff is behind this. Many of us come from a school background, we know that teachers are they've overwhelming jobs, anyone who was not taught really doesn't have a clue how hard teaching is. And it's, um, it you need support, to understand how you manage scraping papers, and managing 25 disparate personalities in a room at a time. You know, and it's just it's, it's a really challenging job. The other thing about the schools is it democratizes access, because schools can pay for really relatively low, low price, and amount of money that will then elevate the game, have all their teachers help all their students. You know, and again, democratizing access is a huge, huge principle, too. I started the charter school was I wanted to provide a private school quality education for those who couldn't afford it. And even though there's pushback among some in the public school community, the district's like, you know, well, you know, that's, we don't support charter schools, I've done it, and it made a huge difference. And I no regrets. And I taught in the regular District Public Schools before that, and I know, we made a difference that we improved all the schools around us. So you know, the, the chance to do this for us, like if we could have every school in the United States of America, and, you know, well beyond it to learn about executive function skills, understand how they're developed, how to help their kids develop them how to work around the challenges, I mean, you know, that's a legacy that's, that would be life complete.Hannah Choi 37:54I'm just gonna pause here to give you some information on where to find out more about BrainTracks, the school support division of Beyond BookSmart that Michael's talking about here. He believes it is so important to lay down tracks or neural pathways for executive function in the brain when our kids are young and to give teachers additional tools to support this brain development. And BrainTracks is designed to do just that. And to learn more, you can go to the website, braintracks.com or send an email to info at braintracks.com. Okay, back to the conversation. Hannah Choi 38:30Do you think that or how do you think the pandemic has impacted people's experience with their own executive function skills and just maybe awareness of them?Michael Delman 38:41It's well, definitely, the pandemic's been a challenge on all of our executive function skills. And I think it begins with that kind of that emotional challenge, right? You know, we talk a lot about like, if the two parts of the brain there are many parts, but you know, the, the emotional amygdala and that whole limbic system and all that, you know, here, and then the prefrontal cortex is where executive function skills reside right here. When you are worried about whether your job will be there, whether you can get toilet paper, whether you will live or die, because there's no vaccine. Those are, I mean, people were flipping the lid all the time. And so it was a time really where we had to regulate ourselves. First, we had to get that government money to make sure our company was stable. We had to shift everything we did go 100% online, we're about 50 60% online, but this 100% immediately, and then we had to build things that were really relevant for everybody now working from home learning from home, you know, so all those adjustments were necessary for us to stay relevant because people's problems were suddenly much bigger, everyone was struggling with mental health issues of anxiety, depression, you know, things like that, those have remained challenge less. So now that people are vaccinating able to go out and about much more, much more normally. I think we've had a permanent shift, though, in the landscape. In some ways for the better, I think a lot of us have found the benefits of working from home of getting support from home, we see that it's convenient, it can be actually super connected, we can really like talk to each other, it's, it's in some ways, less intrusive. So there's a lot of upside. But I do think that the, the, you know, the EF challenges when you are dealing with so much uncertainty is hard. And, you know, we're we're dealing with a recession, and a bear market and all those kinds of things to people worry, but kind of like, like they say, if you don't desperately need your money, and it's in the stock market, during a bad time, wait, because it'll go back up again. It's, it's also, if you can, during a difficult time, continue to do your habits, you know, meditate in the morning workout at some point during the day, you know, do your journaling, or, you know, get the coaching and the support. You know, all the things that just kind of like, keep you steady. do that because those habits are even more necessary during these times. And then they just, gosh, when as things get easier, you're just well equipped for totally capitalizing on all the opportunities that are there as as things do, you know, become more normalized and easier again.Hannah Choi 42:00And how do you what do you think about the the increase in mental health challenges that we're seeing, and especially in college kids and teens, and their connection with executive function skills there? And what are your feelings about all that?Michael Delman 42:18It's, um, it's devastating. You know, so having a daughter just graduated college, another one who just graduated high school. They are, my two girls are really, they're level headed, and they know how to get started. And they just, you know, they get their work done. That said, it's been anywhere even for them from boring to frustrating to outright depressing at times, just to deal with things. If you have genuine tendencies toward mental health challenges, anxiety and depression, things like that. These these are really, really challenging times, I do think that there are a lot of teachers and even whole institutions that are responsive, and you need that you need the institution itself to, to respond, make adjustments, I think there's a, there's a saying that's there for a reason, when all else fails, lower your standards. That is not a horrible admission of defeat. It means if you interpret a little bit differently than maybe just a negative one, it means be real with what's going on around, you look at the context, you know, maybe maybe you thought you were going to be able to do all these courses, maybe do one less course, during this time. Maybe you know, what it means is, instead of, you know, doing every single page of the reading, you learn how to read more for just getting the main ideas when you're feeling too stressed. You know, maybe it means getting support, either therapeutic support, you know, some sort of professional therapist, or coaching support to learn how to be more efficient and, you know, learn how to be more effective with your executive function skills. But I think the foolish thing would be to act as if everything is exactly the same. You know, "keep calm and carry on" and it only gets you so far. I mean, keep calm and carry on. It's a nice little thing to say. But the question is how, like, how do you keep calm how, you know, how do you carry on which things do you decide to let go of? My older daughter, she was just doing everything at school. I mean, so many things, and they were all pretty cool. And then she said one day, I think I'm gonna drop this executive committee. I'm on On for this thing is just like it's really kind of tangential in my life, it's not that it doesn't bring any joy, it's not something that really adds a lot of value to the world. It's not that relevant to my resume. And, and it's that kind of one more straw, you know? And she's like, you know, do you have any anything to say about it, which I was amazed she, you know, asked for my opinion. And I was like, you know, yeah, I have to say, I'm really proud of you, like, good for you for deciding what matters and what doesn't matter. And, again, good prioritizing. I think that that, you know, again, it's, you don't have to lower your standards on everything, what you have to do is make choices. And I think that's hard. It's hard when you're anxious, because then you're worried what if I'm making the wrong choice? You know, what, if it's a choice that's going to lower your anxiety? It's probably a good choice. What if you know, you know, or you feel, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so stupid I, I should be able to do better. So it's got nothing to do with it? You know, get those cents out of it. Yeah. Don't sit on yourself. Right? So it really is where? Where are you? Do the best you can right now. And when you're ready, you know, do more, but just try to keep up decent health, health, giving habits and, and focus on the things where you're gonna get the best return on investment. I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think what young people don't always understand that we get as adults a lot better. Is that that's what you have to do as an adult. Yeah. And what the problem is, when you're in high school, sometimes you get the message from teachers. Everything I say is important. Doesn't matter if it's on the exam, actually, it does. It does matter if it's on the exam. If it's not, you might not spend as much time reviewing it, studying it. You really do need to get good at really discerning what matters and what doesn't matter. It's really what it's all about.Hannah Choi 47:08That just reminds me so much of a a conversation that I had with a freshman in college client, we talked about diminishing returns, and how you know, as you're working, you got to pay attention. Like, are you enjoying what you're doing? Are you being efficient or effective anymore? And she said it had never really occurred to her to pay attention to that. And and we were thinking it's because when you're in high school, and all through school, and your parents are telling you, your parents are telling you what you have to do. Your teachers are telling you what you have to do. You know that like the teacher who says it's all important, even if it's not on the test. And that's a skill that you have to learn as you become more independent. And I guess it's part of becoming more independent is recognizing, okay, this being on this committee is actually no longer important to me. And yeah, and she probably your daughter probably felt like, yeah, like you said, like, she should do it. So my client felt like she, she should study for 45 minutes, because that's what the timer she set for this, you know, this topic, but then if she noticed, after 25 minutes that she was reading the same paragraph over and over again. And it's like, yeah, why wasted another 20 minutes switch to something else? Right. Right. So that's the hard thing to learn,Michael Delman 48:23I guess, you know, it's funny, I have this list of essential concepts for life. They are they're ones that apply off, you know, kind of first and foremost from a field of origin like economics, or say, you know, political science or psychology or math or whatever, you know, things. Things like diminishing returns, as you're just mentioning, or I mentioned, return on investment, you know, or opportunity cost, you know, yeah, I could do this. But what else? What am I giving up? What's the most valuable thing I could be doing during this time, it's sometimes the most valuable thing is actually resting, letting the brain reset. Sometimes it's exercising, sometimes it's reconnecting with an old friend, you know, they're all in or doing a creative creative outlet. There are many, many different things that are that are worth your time. It's not head down, or head down, you're gonna run into something ultimately, right. So quote me on that one. Head down, you're gonna run into something so good.Hannah Choi 49:31Look up every once in a while!Michael Delman 49:32Look up, pal! So but I think it's really important to look up and to and to figure out is this is this the best thing to be doing now? I'd say actually a sad but worthwhile example. I was told about a town government where they had 90 different projects that they're working on 90 projects. I think the town budget something like $200 million or something. It's it's not a small number. Um, And there was a new project brought forward really good idea. And they said, "Well, we have to get the other 90 done first, before we can add something." That's not the way you want to think. And you know, and I'm not trying to pick on government. I mean, certainly if I were I would not pick on town government at at the beginning. That's a local government. And they're still like, well, we've got this, you know, head down, head down, oh, my gosh, you've just been given something that's going to get way more return on investment, you know, and yet, you're going to give up, you're not even going to look at that, because you've got all these other things that you say you're committed to. So again, those executive function skills, whether it's individual level, family level, schools, businesses, government, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like these are the skills, that they're just going to increase everybody's productivity, it doesn't resolve the one thing EF skills don't do is resolve differences in values, right? Like, they can help clarify differences in values. But, you know, sometimes there truly are competing values, one person believes this and other believes that that's okay, then you can together figure out alright, well, given our differences in values, how do we come up with quick example? Guns, it's actually a really good example. There's probably nobody out there who's like, "it would be great if more people died from gun violence, right?" There's like, nobody thinks anyone really believes that. And, you know, probably most people are like, well, you know, some guns for some purposes, target practice, maybe some people are like, yeah, for hunting, you know, whatever it's like it. And then you got all the stuff in the middle. The problem is, things get really polarized. So you've got people that are pretty much pretty different ends of the of the of the perspective. But if you get away from some of the language of like gun control, and some of the language, it's coming out now a little better, like gun safety. That seems like a language that, okay, how do we make for better gun safety in a way that doesn't restrict the rights of people for the most part that want their guns, and manage them responsibly, and yet doesn't allow them in the hands of people that are going to be a true threat to themselves and others. And, you know, those kinds of things. There's virtually no topic that I can't, that I've never died, but I used to be a public policy major in college, where I found that there are places it's just people go to their little corners, and then they fight. And then they dig in emotionally. And you know, head down and, you know, buttheads not, you know, so maybe one side wins for a while, then another side wins for a while, but it doesn't really, you know, come up with sustainable solutions. So, and, you know, we need those.Hannah Choi 52:58Peg Dawson was talking about how she has divided the executive function skills into two groups, like foundational skills and advanced skills. And, you know, some of the last to learn that we learned are like, flexible thinking, and, and, and metacognition, and, you know, perspective taking, and those are all the skills that are that are required for exactly that, you know, even the change in vernacular, right? Someone was using flexible thinking, to, to get there, you know, and to change how we Yep, key, just a simple one word switch can change people's orientation to it. vMichael Delman 53:34Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And not to be naive. There are truly forces of money and evil, you know, in any space. But, but yeah, but when you're talking about people that are truly have just goodwill and trying to figure out things, then, you know, yeah, I mean, that, that, that open mindedness and, yeah. ability to think flexibly. That's where the solutions that probably will help us all to be a better species. We'll, we'll get there. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 54:05So hopefully we can improve everyone in the world their executive function skills.Michael Delman 54:10Yeah. Well, he and I just, I'll say it starts with working on ourselves. It's, you know, anyone who knows me? I mean, they have stories they have, like, like, how did you lose so many things in one weekend? Michael? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, that was a it was amazing. Kind of set a record there. I mean, there are Hannah Choi 54:34I want to hear that story.Michael Delman 54:36 Skiing ski weekend with my friends. Let's just say that we weren't entirely disciplined the whole time. We were just it was just it was a party weekend with the boys. Where are my gloves? Where's my water bottle? I may see my water bottle you know, you know whatever it was there was always something missing. And you know, four guys with ADHD you know, offers weekend is A lot of fun. Sounds great. But yeah, I mean, those kinds of things, and it's all but it's, it's not a matter, you know, whatever being perfect, it's just, it's just a matter of like always, I don't know, keeping some humility and working on yourself and, and, and then maybe have something to teach other people as well given given that this is what you obsess about constantly, and document and systematize and train people in and yeah, you know, you don't have to pretend that you're the person with all the perfect skills and this all came so easily. In fact, one of the reasons I feel I can be helpful is because of the some of the personal challenges. And, you know, when, when I was in college, and I, I tried to drop out of a class because I could not keep up with the reading, it was just too much. And I was a freshman. And I thought, you know, like, I don't know, probably better to drop one course than to fail everything trying to survive this one Latin American studies course. And in a way, that was good thinking, but my professor insisted on meeting with me. And he said, Michael, why can't you know, why are you dropping? And I said, the books are too long. And he said, How do you read them? I said, I read page one. And then I go to page two, isn't that what you do? He said, No, you got to learn how to use like SQ3R - Survey, Question, Read, Recite, Review, or whatever the name was, at that time, and really how to read more like a detective and search for clues. And what I learned from that was I had been reading, so inefficiently my whole life, and still was it like, you know, Ivy League institution, in spite of that, with that tool, and that approach, and guilt free because it was taught by a professor, there you go, I became a really efficient reader. So, you know, I'm never going to be the person that can read one page to the next next as quickly as other people. It's not, you know, I don't have that scanning. And that, that a built those some of those physical abilities there. But I understand the technique, and it's made me just much more efficient. So, you know, I, I love probably almost more than anything, Hannah is when someone says, oh, my gosh, that would be so much better. That would be so much easier. You know, and I know, you get that as a coach, you just know, it's like, Oh, yeah. And then they try it. And they, you know, and they come up with their own solutions. After a while they don't even, you know, they just need to kind of run something by us. And then it becomes theirs. You know, theyHannah Choi 57:50I feel like this, this theme of we talked about it in the very beginning. And I know it comes up a lot in sessions and is the idea of almost like being given permission. Even though the permission was there all along. We just didn't know, to do things differently. And to do things in a way that works for you. Like, you have to hear that professor tell you that. And it changed everything for you. And you you grew up thinking, Okay, this is how this is how you read you read page one. And then because they always say just read one to 30. And you're like, Okay, I guess I just read pages one to 30. Now, you know, no one ever, like tells you it's okay to do it differently. And they just getting permission to do to make things your own. Yeah. And then once you have that, okay, like my client who realized she doesn't have to follow the timer, she can follow her diminishing returns instead. And how many opportunities opens up when to allow yourself to think that way?Michael Delman 58:47Because, once you've once you've stopped writing between the lines enough times, and you've, you've seen that the approach, the one and only approach is not the one and only approach and that there are many others that other people have shown you trusted resources have shown you and then you start to come up with your own, you know, boom, you know, sky's the limit, then you start to see Oh, wow. Uh, you know, it's it. Remember I said earlier about who you are, is something that doesn't have to be so perfectly defined, it can evolve, you know, this is kind of that that micro example of it, how you do it doesn't have to be Oh, it's this is how you do it. Well, that you know, it like they say, You gotta you gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules, you kind of need you need an identity before you can kind of like break free of the need to constantly have an identity.Hannah Choi 59:43But yeah, when you something to work from, a place to work from.Michael Delman 59:48But as you are, you know, as you already have developed certain certain basic fundamental skills, a certain fundamental sense of who you are. Then you have some free them to kind of move from there to bigger and in a freer way of approaching, you know, the way you do things and indeed even who you are. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 1:00:14So what are you? I mean, other than the new division, BrainTracks love it, what are you excited about?Michael Delman 1:00:22Um I think I think just on a personal level, I'm excited to be done with being sick and get back out and play ultimate frisbee again, which is my passion. I'm excited to see the amazing things that my kids are doing as one goes off to college, one graduates from college. And we're empty nesters and, you know, more possibilities there. That'll be interesting. I think on the professional level, it's the school division is truly, truly like, should be enough to keep me fully engaged for a long time. But there's so much talent in that division that they don't need me all the time. The core division is really full swing, really, you know, kind of self running. No, you know, just great leadership on it in the you know, those places. I actually, in talking to you today, I saw something that I hadn't seen before, it never so clearly, which is more the, the not for profit, the governmental side, the helping bring people together in a more civic oriented way. It's always been a passion, it really is deeply connected to what I majored in, in college. And it's work that I do on the side with my kind of, I'm passionate about environmental issues, addressing climate change, because, you know, it's important that we have a planet that's sustainable if we're gonna do anything else. So. So I think, I think there's another another place for me another place for me to be able to build with executive function skills for not for profits, that are making the biggest difference in the world. So that that feels like something that maybe you helped me. You know, I've thought about it before. But as we've talked, I've realized, wow, I'm talking about it a lot. And I really, it really keeps resonating. So the schools were a big step on the way there. But there are so many good organizations that could use that, that kind of help in their processes. Yeah. So thank you.Hannah Choi 1:02:56And, yeah, you're welcome. And I would love for you to share a little bit about the work that you are doing for climate change. And I know you have you started an organization. Yeah. Website. Well,Michael Delman 1:03:07yeah, so it's called an hour a week. I think it's an hour a week.org. I'm gonna make sure to get that right. Because heck, wants to check it out. Yeah, it's an houraweek.org. And the, the essence, you know, could the essential idea behind it is I wanted to lower the price point of activism, lower the price point of making a difference. There are so many people that are like, Oh, my God, you know, the world is on fire, there's terrible problems. True, you know, you feel worse about it, though, if you think about it, and you talk about it, and you worry about any complaint about it, you don't do anything about it. But if you're putting in as little as one hour a week, or even possibly less, you know, it least then you can say, hey, it's true, it's a big old shit show out there in the world is really, you know, there are a lot of problems, but I'm doing a little a, you don't carry around that guilt that you just you don't need to be, you actually start to connect to other people. We have a a once a month meeting, it's literally one hour a month, not a week, one hour a month of actually meeting in a group. And so that's amazing. And, and so you're connecting to people and it gives you a sense of hope and inspiration that, okay, there's a lot of us and it's multiply. And then third, there are very specific simple actions to do between, you know, meetings. So each week, there's a couple of actions maybe it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes. If you want to put in a full hour go for it. You know, you want to put in more that's fine too. But that I just felt like my experience with the some of the environmental groups I've been involved in, are is has been, well you got to be really committed, and you got to know everything. As I know, most people don't know that much, and they're intimidating, it's intimidating, and you don't have a ton of time and you're trying to raise a couple of kids or, or whatever it is, and you got a full time job or two jobs and, and you don't want to make it elitist, or just for people that have retired. You want people that they just care. And they see, oh, there's connections between climate and social justice, and you know, and poverty and, and people who are dispossessed, and you know, and the air that we're breathing, that's, you know, all the stuff. I want it to be a place where you don't have to be an expert, or have a huge amount of time. So, so that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. It's, yeah, it feels feels really good to put some time into that. And, you know, use some of the executive function skills there to organize and have people name their commitments, things like that. So cool. Yeah, thanks for asking on that one.Hannah Choi 1:06:03Yeah. So if there's one thing that you could choose, for people to take away from the work that you've done from your life, from your experiences, what would you share? If it's possible, to narrow it down to one,Michael Delman 1:06:21Try not to die. Like, you'll really, the longer you get to live more, more, more fun and more of a difference you can make. Other than stay alive. You know, I'd say, I'd say it see your life is a journey. It's, you know, it's old, it's old wisdom, but there's a reason it's that wisdoms there. The Station by Hastings, this story about being, you know, you're on a train, and you can't wait to get to the station where there's going to be some big party and, and you're like, cursing the trip, because it's taking so long, and you know, what, that the station at the end, that's the end, like the station is actually the end. So don't be in a rush, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, and, you know, connect to the people on the train, you know, and stop and enjoy. And I realized that that's not really so particular to executive function skills. But I think it's, it's really fundamentally the orientation that will allow us to enjoy our lives and make the most difference in the world, which are kind of my two fundamentals is, you know, pay attention to this being a process. You know, and, and, and make revisions along the way. You know, I had a student who, and I wrote about this in my book for parents, the your kids going to be okay book, where he had a very small amount of homework to do over the weekend, it was literally half an hour. And he didn't do it, and, and ended up getting a zero. His parents were disappointed, like, we went through what were all the costs, you know, and, and he listed them out, you know, all the cons to doing it the way he did it, or didn't do it. And, and I said, Well, let me ask you to at least have a lovely weekend, you know, or did you think about he said, Oh, I thought about I said, like, once? Or twice a little bit? He's like, No, probably, like, 30 times. Yeah. And I said, Oh, so you had a choice to either just do a half an hour and be done with it? Or think about it 30 times, let it ruin your weekend. Kind of like, like, you know, yeah, like in a kind of a low level way, kind of get your weekend, all weekend. And that's what you want with it. He's like, Yeah, probably not the best choice. I think, you know, sometimes you got to bite the bullet a little bit, eat the frog, whatever. But I think if you understand, like, there's this, there's this journey, and some of it's not what I want, and I can't control that. Just take that, do that little bit. And, and then enjoy the parts that you can, you know, I think that's just, it's just a better way to be, you're just gonna enjoy your life a lot more. You know, don't, don't hang on and try to make it just so and hope that you never die. You know, just enjoy the enjoy the journey. That's what you got, you know, and, you know, except Except some of the challenges that we have along the way. So that's, that's what I got for you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 1:09:49I love it. So where can our listeners find more about you and more about what you have maybe written? You want to share a little bit about what you've written?Michael Delman 1:09:58Oh, gosh, well, Let's see, I mean, the first thing would be the book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay. That's, you know, building executive function skills and the age of attention. And I do think that that's a really good one, particularly for parents, sometimes for teachers, even adults could get something out of that just for themselves, because there are a lot of tools in their, their various blogs and podcasts and things right on our website beyond booksmart.com where they click on those interviews, things like that. If you know they want more, if they haven't had enough yet. There are blog posts that I've written that are that are there, you know, that I think that those are the places to begin, you know, if they're interested in working more kind of through a corporate level or you know, that they can reach out through the company and we'll we'll find a way to get in touch. All right,Hannah Choi 1:10:54and I just I want to I do want to plug your book a little bit because I love how you you wrote it in such a way that's so accessible and so easy to read. And I think so many quote unquote self help books out there are can tend to feel very heavy and, and maybe there's like a lot of jargon or you know, this topics that feel beyond our scope of knowledge, and I felt like you really made it very presentable and1:11:19meant to be conversational, but yes, yeah,Hannah Choi 1:11:21yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael.Michael Delman 1:11:25What a pleasure!Hannah Choi 1:11:26Thank you for joining me. Hannah Choi 1:11:29And that's our show for today. I want to thank Michael Delman for joining me and I hope you enjoyed his stories and wisdom and were able to find a nugget of gold in there for yourself. As Michael says, He wishes for people to be able to see their life as a journey. So thank you for taking time out of your day to listen and for including me and focus forward on your own journey. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus. Where are we with your colleagues, your family and your friends. We love it when our listeners help spread the word about the importance of executive function skills for finding satisfaction and happiness in life. You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can sign up for our newsletter at www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!