Podcasts about cpms

Subscribe to DTC Newsletter - https://dtcnews.link/signupEric sits down with Anthony DelPizzo, Director of Product Marketing at Triple Whale, to unpack what actually happened across $2.9B in tracked revenue and $607M in ad spend. This episode is your shortcut to what worked, what didn't, and what's next.Black Friday/Cyber Monday 2025 is in the books — and Triple Whale tracked every click, conversion, and creative that moved the needle.View the Report: triplewhale.comWhat's inside:Why new customers made up 48% of BFCM revenue — and what that means for retention nowTikTok's surge: ROAS up 28%, CPMs down 30% — here's why brands shiftedGoogle and Meta platform breakdown: who won, who lost, and who overchargedWhat Triple Whale's real-time BFCM Live dashboard revealed in secondsHow Mobi AI became the virtual teammate nearly 50,000 brands relied on mid-saleIf you're a DTC marketer, growth lead, media buyer, retention strategists, or anyone planning for 2026 Q4, this episode is a must listen.Timestamps00:00 BFCM early surge and overall sales performance02:00 New vs returning customer trends and major revenue drivers04:00 Rising ad costs and platform efficiency shifts06:00 TikTok, AppLovin and alternative channels gaining traction08:00 Email and SMS insights from post-purchase data10:00 Meta and Google cost changes and ROAS movement12:00 Diversification and placement performance on major platforms14:00 Category winners and unit economics16:00 Shopify outage and real-time data advantages18:00 How brands used Moby AI for BFCM decision-making20:00 Top lessons for brands heading into 2026Hashtags#DTC #TripleWhale #BFCM2025 #EcommerceMarketing #DigitalAdvertising #MetaAds #GoogleAds #TikTokAds #Attribution #MarketingData #AIForMarketing #MobyAI #Shopify #PerformanceMarketing #OmnichannelMarketing Subscribe to DTC Newsletter - https://dtcnews.link/signupAdvertise on DTC - https://dtcnews.link/advertiseWork with Pilothouse - https://dtcnews.link/pilothouseFollow us on Instagram & Twitter - @dtcnewsletterWatch this interview on YouTube - https://dtcnews.link/video

Matthew Bertram and Chris Krimitsos dive into how creators and brands can grow faster together amid an AI content surge, with real case studies from Podfest and beyond. We map a practical playbook: entity SEO, the 7-11-4 rule, a clip-first workflow, and partnership models that beat CPMs.• creator economy trends and the shift to video• long form for trust, shorts for discovery• entity SEO, consistent handles and domains• the 7-11-4 rule for brand familiarity• platform economics with YouTube as home base• partnership deals beyond CPMs and MGs• measuring hidden ROI and affiliate leakage• NIL, rights and repurposing content• brand control vs creator authenticity• B2B adoption steps, timelines and testsGuest Contact Information: Website: chriskrimitsos.comInstagram: instagram.com/chriskrimitsosFacebook: facebook.com/chriskrimitsosX: x.com/chriskrimitsosMore from EWR and Matthew:Leave us a review wherever you listen: Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Amazon PodcastFree SEO Consultation: www.ewrdigital.com/discovery-callWith over 5 million downloads, The Best SEO Podcast has been the go-to show for digital marketers, business owners, and entrepreneurs wanting real-world strategies to grow online. Now, host Matthew Bertram — creator of LLM Visibility™ and the LLM Visibility Stack™, and Lead Strategist at EWR Digital — takes the conversation beyond traditional SEO into the AI era of discoverability. Each week, Matthew dives into the tactics, frameworks, and insights that matter most in a world where search engines, large language models, and answer engines are reshaping how people find, trust, and choose businesses. From SEO and AI-driven marketing to executive-level growth strategy, you'll hear expert interviews, deep-dive discussions, and actionable strategies to help you stay ahead of the curve. Find more episodes here: youtube.com/@BestSEOPodcastbestseopodcast.combestseopodcast.buzzsprout.comFollow us on:Facebook: @bestseopodcastInstagram: @thebestseopodcastTiktok: @bestseopodcastLinkedIn: @bestseopodcastConnect With Matthew Bertram: Website: www.matthewbertram.comInstagram: @matt_bertram_liveLinkedIn: @mattbertramlivePowered by: ewrdigital.comSupport the show

If you've ever felt the December–January dip creeping up on your ecommerce store, this episode is your roadmap for keeping revenue flowing while everyone else is blaming the season.In today's chat, we break down the exact strategies we use with clients to turn what most brands call “the dead months” into some of their highest-performing periods.We cover:How to convert Christmas shoppers fast — including urgent gift-card pushes, festive bundles, tiered discounts and the psychology behind shipping cutoff urgency.Bounce-back promos that beat traditional discounts — so December revenue fuels your January sales without destroying margin.Mystery bundles that boost dopamine + AOV — low-cost, high-fun offers like Summer Mystery Bags and Reset Boxes that convert even when motivation is low.“New Year, New Routine” quiz funnels — why early January is the BEST time to launch a personalised routine finder that nurtures customers into long-term buyers.January's secret weapon: awareness-based UGC — cheaper CPMs, more scrolling, and the exact content styles that grow your brand while everyone else goes quiet.If you want your ecommerce store to stay profitable through the holidays and set up a strong Q1, this episode gives you the playbook.

Subscribe to DTC Newsletter - https://dtcnews.link/signupJocelyn from Pilothouse breaks down how their team stays aggressive, adapts fast, and helps clients scale efficiently—even on the actual day of Black Friday.For media buyers and growth teams optimizing in real-time...What to do when your CPMs and CACs spike day-ofWhy legacy evergreen might outperform your BFCM creativeThe one Canva trick Jocelyn uses to refresh high-cost ads fastWhat Rebuy is and how it helped one brand double YoY revenueHow Pilothouse pushes Meta's algorithm before it catches trend shiftsWho this is for: DTC brands, marketers, and performance teams deep in BFCM trench warfareWhat to steal:Canva border hack to make organic product shots pop for BFCMSimplify site UX: static banners, one clear offer, above-the-fold CTADon't trust one dashboard—use the data triangle: Shopify, Meta, Triple WhaleTimestamps00:00 Black Friday PPC shifts and customer acquisition02:05 Scrappy creatives that cut CPMs and boost conversions04:20 Top of funnel focus and new customer strategies06:30 Website optimizations to increase conversion rate today08:50 How one brand hit 100 percent year over year growth11:10 Dealing with delayed attribution and platform discrepancies13:15 How Rebuy boosts AOV and top line revenue15:20 Guiding the algorithm and deep audience persona testing17:35 Wellness category trends and emerging demo shifts18:55 Healthier on-platform metrics through segmentationHashtags#dtcpodcast #blackfridaymarketing #ecommercetips #pilothouse #metaads #googleads #paidmedia #shopifybrands #rebuy #conversionrateoptimization #ecomstrategy #digitalmarketingtips Subscribe to DTC Newsletter - https://dtcnews.link/signupAdvertise on DTC - https://dtcnews.link/advertiseWork with Pilothouse - https://www.pilothouse.co/?utm_source=AKNF563Follow us on Instagram & Twitter - @dtcnewsletterWatch this interview on YouTube - https://dtcnews.link/video

In this episode of Seceret to Scaling your Ecommerce Brand, Jordan West and Zohaib from Refundle break down exactly how brands can scale from 0 to 7 figures on TikTok Shop using creators, content strategy, CPM arbitrage, and whitelisting.We cover the real reasons TikTok Shop works, how to build creator communities, how to repurpose UGC across every platform, and why attribution is broken in 2025. You'll learn how to reach out to affiliates, how many samples you should send, how to increase GMV from live shopping, and the exact playbook top-performing brands are using right now.If you want to grow your TikTok Shop, lower CPMs, and scale organic + paid through creators, this episode gives you the full blueprint.===============================

This roundtable explores how B2B teams can use modern demand strategies, B2C channels, and incrementality testing to prove true ad impact in 2026. The conversation highlights omni-channel expansion beyond LinkedIn, data-driven measurement, and practical ways to validate lift across pipeline and revenue.Speakers and RolesMatt Sciannella – Host and practitioner running paid media for multiple B2B clients; shares real client use cases, lift results, and practical frameworks for measurement and experimentation.Keith Putnam-Delaney – CEO of Primer; former Dropbox growth leader; expert in B2B expansion into B2C channels, audience targeting, mobile–desktop measurement problems, match rates, and lift testing.Authority: Both speakers bring hands-on experience running B2B paid programs at scale and deep insight into attribution limits, ABM constraints, and cross-channel growth strategies.Topics CoveredRising costs and saturation in traditional B2B channels (LinkedIn, Google).Why B2B brands must expand into B2C channels like Meta, YouTube, Reddit, TikTok.Mobile vs. desktop measurement gaps and cross-device limitations.Signal loss, attribution decay, and the need for server-side events.How to validate true impact using lift tests and incrementality.CPM efficiency comparisons across channels.ABM unbundling and alternatives to large, monolithic ABM platforms.Using holdout groups, geographic lift, and omnichannel testing strategies.Real client examples showing lift in inbound, share of search, and revenue.How audience targeting tools unlock TAM expansion outside LinkedIn.Questions This Video Helps AnswerHow do B2B marketers prove real ad impact without relying on last-touch attribution?How can brands expand beyond LinkedIn and still target ICP buyers effectively?What causes demand generation inefficiency and how do you fix it?How do mobile–desktop and cross-device gaps distort performance data?What is the right way to design lift tests or incrementality experiments?How can small TAM companies still scale using B2C channels?What alternative ABM workflows exist beyond large enterprise platforms?How should B2B teams interpret rising CPMs and shrinking reach?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedB2B growth marketingGrowth teamsSales operations managersRevenue operations rolesVPs of MarketingRegional sales directorsMedical device surgeons (ICP example)Marketing, sales, financeInfosec teamsPLG teamsField marketingOutbound sales teamsKey TakeawaysAttribution alone cannot prove channel value; lift tests reveal true incrementality.B2B audiences exist far beyond LinkedIn, and CPM efficiency is often dramatically higher on Meta, Reddit, and YouTube.Mobile-heavy consumption breaks MTA models; server-side signals and conversion APIs are now essential.ABM can be unbundled using smaller, more flexible tools and alternative data sources.Expanding TAM and using audience targeting unlocks more reach and stronger pipeline outcomes.Share of search is a powerful leading indicator for demand creation impact.Omnichannel experimentation paired with structured test design improves confidence with finance and executive teams.Frameworks and Concepts MentionedIncrementality testingHoldout groupsChannel-based lift testsGeographic lift testsAccount list split testingLeading vs. lagging indicatorsShare of search analysisServer-side conversion APIs (CAPI)Cross-device measurementAudience match ratesABM unbundlingCPM efficiency analysis

Show Resources Jack Caspino's LinkedIn profile - follow and connect! Join the LinkedIn Ads Fanatics and get access to our 4 courses to take you from beginner to expert. Just hit 100 members so a shoutout to our awesome LI Ads fanatics for making it such an awesome community! Rate/Review Contact us with any questions, suggestions, or corrections! Summary In this episode of the LinkedIn Ads Show, AJ is joined by Jack Caspino, founder of ContactLevel, to dive deep into one of the most powerful – and misunderstood – tools in your LinkedIn arsenal: data enrichment for list uploads. We break down exactly how Jack is turning 40% match rates into near-100% by enriching B2B contact lists with consumer identifiers, then syncing those hyper-accurate audiences across major platforms to reach the same people everywhere for less. You'll hear a real-life case study from one of our clients, smart tactics for making the most of very small audiences (like duplicating campaigns to reset CPMs, using Thought Leader Ads and boosted posts, and layering in LinkedIn Audience Network and CTV strategically), plus a peek into ContactLevel's CRM integrations, workflow automations, and upcoming roadmap. We also kick things off with important LinkedIn platform updates you need to know—recent delivery issues with manual bidding, ad personalization, multi-format campaigns, dwell time changes, and the new campaign/ad set naming. Listen to learn how to see your own enriched match rates in action. Transcript For the full show transcript, see the show notes page here: Episode 166

Marketers have long optimised for visibility and memory, but in our metric-focused industry, are we measuring what really matters?In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, host James Lawrence speaks with Dr. Karen Nelson-Field, Founder of Amplified, about why attention is the real currency of modern advertising and how to measure it effectively. From the myth of virality to the flaws in CPMs, Karen shares what years of research reveal about how people truly engage with ads, and what marketers need to do next to stay ahead.Key Takeaways:Dr. Karen's journey: from academic researcher to founder, shaping the global conversation on attention measurementWhy traditional metrics like reach, impressions and engagement fail to capture real ad effectivenessHow attention measurement works and why it's revolutionising media planning and buyingThe difference between active, passive and non-attention, and how they impact ROIWhy CPM should stand for “Cost per Meaningless Thousand”How creative and media need to work together for attention to truly convertWhy cheaper ad formats often deliver worse ROI than expectedThe role of AI and synthetic audiences in scaling attention measurementThe future: the unification of creative and media through AI-driven toolsAdditional resource: The Eye-Watering Cost of Dull MediaGuest:Dr. Karen Nelson-Field is a globally recognised researcher and entrepreneur reshaping how marketers think about effectiveness. As the Founder and CEO of Amplified, she leads pioneering work in attention measurement across platforms and formats. A former academic turned industry innovator, Karen's research has influenced how the world's biggest brands evaluate advertising performance. Find Us Online:James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/ Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/ Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/Buy Smarter Marketer:Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm About the Podcast:This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

It's often said that for e-commerce brands, the holiday season is the 5th quarter of the year. Sue Azari, e-commerce industry lead at AppsFlyer, joins Taylor Lobdell for a tactical breakdown of how the smartest e-commerce apps move from Q4 user acquisition to Q5 retention and remarketing. From UK and EMEA trends to global shifts in spend, Sue details why remarketing spend surges fivefold at the end of the year, how loyalty and personalization schemes actually drive a second purchase, and what makes non-organic installs disproportionately valuable for real app revenue. Referencing real examples from brands like Zara, H&M, Temu, and Shein, Sue lays out the structural shifts, practical tactics, and emerging risks facing every marketer trying to build durable, app-based revenue in a volatile global market.Key topics and questionsThe in-house consultant role at AppsFlyer and its cross-functional focusHow the UK's mature e-commerce market shapes global strategiesWhy Q5 matters, and how its install/revenue spike emergedWhen and why remarketing eclipses UA spendTactics for turning a Q4 buyer into a repeat customer in Q5Personalization, loyalty, and exclusive drops to drive frequencyUGC, influencer content, and AI tools for creative ideationWhat e-commerce needs to steal from gaming's diversified media mixWhy DSPs and Reddit remain underused in e-commercePaid–organic uplift: why half of installs deliver three-quarters of revenueHow to respond to high December CPMs and new market entrantsThe 70-20-10 rule for channel testingGlobal UA patterns: Android vs iOS, tariffs, rapid spend reallocationQR codes, in-store modes, and the app as a bridge to physical retailSegmentation: why abandon basket and uninstalled users matter mostStaying current in a market defined by privacy shifts and macro volatilityTimestamps(0:03) – Intro, Sue's cross-functional role and background(1:11) – UK and EMEA, market maturity, lessons, and cross-region strategy(2:52) – Defining Q5, why end-of-year cycles matter for apps and travel(4:10) – Black Friday: remarketing spend is five times UA at peak(5:03) – Tactics: loyalty, personalization, and getting to the second purchase(6:12) – Creative best practices, UGC, influencers, and new AI tools(7:02) – Diversifying media, DSPs, app-to-app installs, and what e-commerce misses(7:55) – Community and AI as emerging channels(9:13) – Paid–organic uplift, nearly three-quarters of revenue is non-organic(10:38) – Coping with high CPMs, moving spend, leaning on owned media(11:43) – Testing new channels; the 70-20-10 rule for risk(13:47) – Regional differences in UA: China, tariffs, and aggressive spend moves(17:00) – How Sue tracks trends, privacy changes, and new industry moves(17:32) – Temu/Shein: billion-dollar UA, loyalty pivots, and physical store expansions(19:42) – QR codes, attribution, and bridging digital and physical with apps(20:51) – Retargeting segments: abandon basket and uninstalled users(21:46) – Lightning round: favorite channels, brands, tactics, and London recommendationsSelected quotes(4:13) – “When we look at spend, remarketing spend is five times that of UA for e-commerce apps during the end of Q4.”(10:06) – “Nearly three quarters of purchase revenue comes from non-organic sources. Users are much more likely to buy something if they've been driven to the app by a particular marketing campaign.”(21:01) – “Abandoned baskets are my primary focus for remarketing, because 70% of users who install an e-commerce app will abandon their basket. The other one that I think is not as commonly done, but I think it's very valuable, is remarketing to uninstalled users.”Mentioned in this episodeAppsFlyerSue Azari on Linkedin

In this episode of The Sleeping Barber Podcast, Marc and Vassilis sit down with Adam Morgan (Eat Big Fish) and Dr. Karen Nelson-Field (Amplified Intelligence) to talk about one of marketing's most overlooked money pits — dull media.You've heard of dull ads — but what about dull media?From perfume that smells like burning money to attention metrics that flip our measurement logic upside down, this conversation exposes how marketers might be wasting more budget on where they show up than what they show.Together, they unpack:Why the real cost of dullness might live in your media plan, not your creative.The massive gap between viewable and actually seen impressions.How cheap CPMs can quietly destroy ROI.Why challenger brands suffer most when attention is lost.And why the smartest marketers start from one brutal truth: nobody cares — so make them.It's a lively, insightful, and often hilarious conversation that will make you rethink everything from your media mix to your measurement frameworks.Key TakeawaysDull media wastes more money than dull creative.Attention metrics are becoming the new standard.“Viewable” ≠ “Seen.” Stop confusing impressions with impact.The cheapest media often delivers the lowest ROI — a false economy.Challenger brands face double jeopardy when cutting corners on attention.Budget pressure is no excuse for bad planning.Attention isn't a metric — it's a design principle.Marketers must challenge models built on impression volume.Setting the bar higher is the only way to make media work harder.Removing waste and reinvesting in effective attention drives better results.Chapters00:00 - Introduction to Dull Media and Marketing Waste03:06 - The Cost of Dull Media vs. Dull Creative06:00 - The Impact of Media Delivery Mechanisms08:55 - The Concept of Seen vs. Unseen in Advertising12:02 - Innovative Approaches to Highlighting Media Waste15:01 - Attention Metrics and Their Importance18:06 - The Challenge of Changing Industry Standards20:53 - The Role of Budget Pressures in Media Choices26:48 - Challenging Assumptions in Media Engagement30:34 - The Cost of Dull Media34:06 - The Double Jeopardy for Challenger Brands38:46 - Understanding Attention as a Design Principle42:30 - Setting the Bar Higher for Media EffectivenessSupporting Links:The Extraordinary Cost of Dull - System1 GroupThe Cost of Dull Media | Dr Karen Nelson-Field (amplified.co)Le Cout Dennui - The 198bn Cost Of Dull Media

Plötzlich zahlst du doppelt so viel pro Klick – obwohl du gar nichts geändert hast? Das liegt selten nur am Wettbewerb, sondern fast immer an deinem Kampagnen-Setup selbst. In dieser Folge zeige ich dir, warum deine Klickpreise und CPMs explodieren, welche Ursachen du Schritt für Schritt prüfen solltest und wie du deine Kampagnen wieder stabilisierst – ohne mehr Budget zu verbrennen. Ich erkläre dir außerdem, wann Eingreifen sinnvoll ist – und wann du besser einfach mal nichts tust. Viele Marketer schieben steigende Klickpreise auf „den Markt“. Doch in über 80 % der Fälle liegt das Problem im eigenen Konto: falsche Signale, fehlerhafte Gebotsstrategien oder instabile Lernphasen. In dieser Episode erfährst du: - Welche Ursachen deine steigenden Klickpreise oder CPMs wirklich haben - Wie du Tracking-Fehler erkennst und behebst - Warum Google und Meta manchmal „in Panik“ bieten - Wann du Kampagnen laufen lassen solltest – und wann du eingreifen musst - Wie du mit Hilfs-Conversions und stabilen Strategien bessere Ergebnisse erzielst Zum Schluss bekommst du meinen 4-Schritte-Plan, um deine Ads-Kosten wieder in den Griff zu bekommen – egal ob Google oder Meta.

In this Two & a Half Gamers special, Felix Braberg breaks down how to maximize ad monetization during Black Friday weekend - the new “Q5” for mobile games.

Billboards at $0.75 CPM. Streaming TV you can actually measure. Tim Rowe breaks down how to blend OOH + CTV to drop blended CAC, spark geo-lift, and build “living-room” brand equity—without massive budgets.Streaming has turned TV into a performance channel you can buy, cap, and measure like digital—often at CPMs rivaling or beating social. Tim explains how their ad server + pixel connect living-room exposure to down-funnel actions, with many brands seeing $3–$4 cost per visit and 3–4× higher conversion vs other traffic sources. On OOH, the overlooked arbitrage is static or digital boards priced like real estate: win by buying the biggest formats in the largest markets at the lowest biddable entry price, then engineer earned media (social virality) and geo-lift. Start with ~$5k for a real CTV test (smaller tests can still work as an add-on), measure blended CAC, branded search, and market-level lift, and let creative—not hyper-granular targeting—do the heavy lifting.GuestWebsite: https://cognitionads.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/troweactualX (Twitter): https://x.com/oohinsiderTim's newsletter/resource hub: https://stateofstreaming.com/What You'll LearnWhy streaming made TV relevant again—and cheap ($1–$2 CPMs in some geos).How to attribute TV exposure → search → site visit → purchase within a 48-hour view-through window.The out-of-home (OOH) arbitrage: buying big signs in big markets for sub-$1 CPMs.How OOH + CTV lower blended CAC and lift branded search in target geographies.Practical first tests: budgets, pixels, frequency caps, creative, and geo measurement.Event playbooks: digital billboard trucks, rideshare screens, street teams, and QR flows.Targeting reality: on CTV, less targeting often wins—use creative as the filter.Retargeting on TV (yes): pixel site traffic and follow with CTV/audio/display.Timestamps & Chapters00:00 — Why TV is “back”: streaming CPMs and geo-targeted buys01:30 — Direct attribution: 48-hour view-through from TV → search → site → purchase03:45 — OOH primer: static vs digital, programmatic buys, and PMP tips06:05 — The arbitrage: big boards, big markets, tiny CPMs (often

MOVE SUPPLY CHAINPay less for COGS, get shorter lead times, and improve payment terms in your supply chain with help from Move Supply Chain at https://⁠movesupplychain.com⁠.RICHPANELCut your support costs by 30% and reduce tickets by 30%—guaranteed—with Richpanel's AI-first Customer Service Platform that will reduce costs, improve agent productivity & delight customers at http://www.richpanel.com/partners/ajf?utm_source=spotify.//What if the biggest risk to your brand isn't competition or CPMs - it's how you define success? In this episode, Andrew walks through a practical framework for setting reasonable, operator-grade goals using EOS (10-year → 3-year → 1-year → quarterly), then pressure-testing those goals against your real constraints: product pipeline, supply chain, hiring, onboarding, and P&L design. We dig into why “rocket ship” thinking so often creates chaos: over-hiring, over-buying inventory, and chasing vanity targets - and how durable brands actually grow: methodically, with clear success criteria and a bias toward profitability.You'll learn how to translate vision into numbers; why returning-customer mix lowers CAC% over time; how to engineer margin through supplier work (terms, lead times, BOM interrogation); and when to seize moments without over-leveraging. Real operator cases—Born Primitive, Simple Modern, Natural Dog Company, CTC—illustrate why steady compounding beats aggressive targets that break systems. If you want a calmer calendar and a fatter P&L, this is the playbook.//CHAPTER TITLES:00:01:06 - Using EOS As a Framework00:04:10 - What Is Motivating You & Your Goals (For Your Business)00:07:42 - How Can Your Vision Be A Constraint?00:09:01 - Examples of Great Brands 00:16:16 - Andrew defines a Rocketship Business00:19:10 - Good Businesses Build Steady Overtime00:25:31 - The Secret Sauce Brands Are Using To Grow00:28:33 - Maximizing Key Moments00:30:34 - P&L Design00:32:53 - Don't Let The Promise of A.I. Fool You00:34:49 - Goals for AJF Growth//SUBSCRIBE TO MY PODCAST FOR 2X/WEEKLY UPLOADS!//ADMISSIONGet the best media buying training on the Internet + a free coaching call with Common Thread Collective's media buyers when you sign up for ADmission here: ⁠⁠https://www.youradmission.co/andrew-faris-podcast⁠//FOLLOW UP WITH ANDREW X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/andrewjfaris ⁠Email: podcast@ajfgrowth.comWork with Andrew: ⁠https://ajfgrowth.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Why is your ad revenue flat even when your game's traffic is growing? Margins are getting squeezed by hidden fees, and old strategies of yelling at partners no longer move the needle. In this episode, we sit down with veteran ad monetization consultant Kelly Kang to get her modern playbook for building a resilient and profitable ad strategy from the ground up.Kelly Kang has optimized ad strategies for some of the biggest names in mobile gaming, including Big Fish Games, Aristocrat, and Glu Mobile. She provides a masterclass on auditing your current setup, choosing the right tech stack, and understanding the metrics that truly matter for long-term growth.In this episode, you will learn:The #1 reason your revenue margins are shrinking (and it's not what you think).A 4-point framework to audit your ad stack, from mediation to placements.Why you should track Ad Engagement and Impression Depth over ARPDAU and CPM.The most common (and costly) mistakes studios make when launching and operating ads.Actionable "quick wins" that can immediately boost performance.How to structure and scale your ad monetization team based on revenue, not workload.Episode Chapters (Timestamps):(00:00:26) The Biggest Pain Point: Squeezed Margins & Hidden Fees(00:04:21) The Day-One Audit: A 4-Point Framework(00:07:37) Strategy: Header Bidding vs. Waterfall(00:14:25) The Metrics That Actually Matter (Beyond ARPDAU)(00:17:54) Ad Placement and Format Strategy(00:27:35) Launching a New Game: A Step-by-Step Plan(00:38:29) How to Structure and Scale Your Admon Team(00:49:03) Common Mistakes That Kill Revenue and LTV(00:55:49) Quick Wins to Boost Ad Revenue(01:04:08) The Future of Ad Monetization & AIFollow Us:For more expert insights, subscribe to the Gamemakers newsletter: https://www.gamemakers.com/Connect with our Guest:To learn more about Kelly Kang and her work, visit Game Plan Advisor: https://www.gameplanadvisor.com

In this episode of The Podcast Advertising Playbook, David "DK" Krulewich joins host Heather Osgood to talk about the value of programmatic ads, and how AI powered ad tech can help maximize both reach and revenue. David Krulewich is the CEO of Mission Media, a company dedicated to driving influence through independent voices. Leveraging the power of audio, CTV, podcasting, and social media, Mission Media connects brands with consumers in the most impactful ways - reaching audiences at meaningful touchpoints through a marketplace of over 100 independent influencers. By harnessing AI-driven contextual targeting, Mission Media enables advertisers to align their messaging with the right content, ensuring powerful brand storytelling and measurable marketing success. In this episode, you will hear: Key differences in host-read ads and programmatic ads Why creators and advertisers should include programmatic in their campaigns How to leverage your back catalog to increase inventory and monetization potential How to drive impact and influence using the latest in programmatic technology Factors that impact overall yield and CPMs through targeting If you're a creator looking for new ways to monetize, or an advertiser looking to add programmatic ad reads to your strategy, this one is for you.

INTELLIGEMSIntelligems brings A/B testing to business decisions beyond copy and design. Test your pricing, shipping charges, free shipping thresholds, offers, SaaS tools, and more by clicking here: https://bit.ly/42DcmFl. Get 20% off the first 3 months with code FARIS20.FERMATCreate funnels the same way you create ads with FERMAT by visiting ⁠⁠https://fermatcommerce.com/af//Most brands feel the Meta ceiling: spend more, ROAS drops—cut spend, volume collapses. In this episode, we unpack why that happens and how to scale profitably by understanding your natural CAC, the Meta auction mechanics, and the non-linear trade-off between efficiency and volume. You'll learn how CPMs reflect marketplace equilibrium, why “two-to-one ROAS” shows up at scale, and what actually moves results: estimated action rate, post-click profit optimization, and business design that supports volume.We walk through a practical playbook: identify your current natural CAC; use higher-quality, message-market-fit creative to penetrate deeper at the same bid; optimize profit per click (upsells, offers, bundles, pricing tests); explore new audiences/angles; ship new products to unlock fresh demand; and engineer the P&L (opex, supply chain terms, staffing, capital) so you can win more auctions without burning margin. If you run a 7–9 figure brand and care about scaling with profitability, this is the meta-ads episode that pays for itself. What you'll take away:• How Meta's auction actually prices your customer and why CAC “settles.” • The marginal frontier concept and why scale/efficiency is non-linear.• The levers that raise volume without wrecking contribution margin: creative EAR, profit-per-click tests, LTV expansion, and capitalization strategy.//CHAPTER TITLES:00:01:44 - What Is Natural CAC?00:04:40 - High Volume Meta Ads00:05:41 - Your Brands Natural Customer00:08:10 - Breaking Down How Ad Auctions Work00:12:21 - Why Meta CPM's Have Gone Up00:17:35 - The Value of a Specific Search Term00:20:51 - The Importance of a Strong LTV00:25:06 - How To Win At Cost Thresholds?00:35:42 - Lowering Your OpEx00:37:58 - The Best Brands DO THIS//SUBSCRIBE TO MY CHANNEL FOR 2X/WEEKLY UPLOADS!//ADMISSIONGet the best media buying training on the Internet + a free coaching call with Common Thread Collective's media buyers when you sign up for ADmission here: ⁠⁠https://www.youradmission.co/andrew-faris-podcast⁠//FOLLOW UP WITH ANDREW X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/andrewjfaris ⁠Email: podcast@ajfgrowth.comWork with Andrew: ⁠https://ajfgrowth.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Episode SummaryDigital advertising promised perfect accountability—laser-sharp targeting, flawless attribution, and measurable results down to the last click. But what if the data has been lying to us all along?Dr. Augustine Fou, former Chief Digital Officer and independent ad fraud researcher, reveals why the "1% fraud rate" you've been hearing for a decade is dangerously wrong. In this eye-opening conversation, he exposes the systemic incentives that allow ad fraud to thrive, costing advertisers billions while enriching middlemen, platforms, and fraudsters.You'll discover how a major hotel chain found their "incredible" ROAS completely evaporated when they turned off campaigns for one week. Why "audience expansion networks" are actually "fraudience networks" filled with bots. And how placement reports from your DSP are systematically fabricated because fraudulent sites lie about their domains in bid requests.Dr. Fou doesn't just diagnose the problem—he provides concrete, actionable solutions. Learn the one campaign setting that eliminates 90% of fraud instantly, why paying higher CPMs actually saves you money, and how to measure what actually matters: Human CPM (HCPM), not just impressions.This isn't about pointing fingers. It's about upgrading your analytics so you can finally see what's really happening with your ad spend—and take back control.Key TakeawaysThe 1% Lie: Legacy verification vendors have reported ~1% invalid traffic for 10 years straight—not because fraud is low, but because that's all they can detectThe Attribution Illusion: View-through conversions and ROAS reports massively over-attribute sales that would have happened anywayEveryone Benefits But You: Ad exchanges, agencies under budget pressure, verification vendors, and even marketers protecting their jobs all profit from the status quoFraudience Networks: Turning off audience expansion on Facebook, Google, TikTok, and other platforms immediately eliminates 90% of fraudThe CPM Trap: Lower CPMs aren't "cost efficiency"—you're just buying 10x more impressions where only 10% reach humans, making your effective Human CPM 10x higherPlacement Report Fiction: Sites lie about their domain in bid requests, so your blocklists don't work and your reports show clean inventory that doesn't existThe Turn-Off Test: Run holdout experiments—turn off campaigns in one state or for one week and measure if sales velocity actually changesTimestamps00:00 - Introduction: The Promise vs. Reality of Digital Advertising02:58 - Dr. Fou's Journey: From MIT Chemistry to Ad Fraud Research05:54 - Why Everyone Dismissed the Warnings (Including Marc)09:12 - There's No "Typical" Fraud Rate: From 1% to 100% Depending on What You Buy11:58 - The Attribution Problem: Why Your ROAS Reports Are Fiction14:56 - The Incentive Structure: Why Everyone Profits From Fraud Except Advertisers17:58 - When Does This Become a Shareholder Problem?26:59 - Red vs. Blue: Why You Must Measure Both Bots AND Humans29:27 - The CPM Misconception: Price vs. Cost Efficiency32:54 - Fraudience Networks: Turn Them Off and Save 90% Immediately36:04 - How Bots Game Retargeting and Audience Segments40:04 - Best Practices: Inclusion Lists, Direct Buying, and Turning Off Audience Networks42:15 - The Placement Report Scam: Why Your Blocklists Don't Work47:00 - The Footfall Fraud: How Ad Tech Gamed In-Store Attribution52:01 - Moving Away From Black Box Algorithms56:04 - Reframing the Conversation: From "Fraud" to "Better Analytics"Guest BioDr. Augustine Fou is a former Chief Digital Officer, independent ad fraud researcher, and creator of FouAnalytics—an analytics platform that measures both bot traffic (red) and human traffic (blue) to give advertisers unprecedented...

Send us a textAre YouTube ads finally better than TV for building a local brand, or is broadcast still king when you need daily reach and real frequency?

Questions Advi answered in this episode: What is Social Plus, and how do its in-app social features work?Why is retention ‘the new acquisition' in 2025?What mistakes do marketers make when they think about retention?How do community features increase CLV across verticals like fitness, travel, and retail?How can first-party data from in-app communities transform marketing and personalization?Who inside a company should ‘own' retention marketing, product, or success?How can loyalty programs be built on organic engagement instead of just promos?What is the ‘spaces model' for understanding community ROI?How should marketers balance personalization with scale across millions of users?What metrics should marketers stop obsessing over, and which deserve more focus?What new revenue opportunities do brand partners unlock inside communities?Timestamps:(0:00) – Intro; Advi's background and Social Plus overview(1:38) – Micro-community examples: surf shops, fitness apps, Nike sneakerheads(7:03) – Why ‘retention is growth' in 2025: CAC vs CLV(9:30) – Marketing silos and the ownership problem in retention(13:40) – Why promos and events are less effective than organic engagement(17:21) – First-party data: insights, sentiment analysis, and privacy advantages(20:00) – Loyalty vs. hypergrowth: why CLV is a long-term play(22:37) – Signals of churn, and how to intervene before users leave(25:41) – Balancing personalization and scale with AI-driven sentiment and clusters(28:20) – Metrics that marketers overvalue (CAC, ad spend) versus those they undervalue (LTV, frequency, order size)(31:00) – Brand partnerships inside communities: CPM rethink and new revenue models(33:32) – Rapid fire: food in Thailand vs Italy, habits, dream jobs, favorite brandsSelected quotes(12:50) – “Promos and gamified events help, but organic engagement helps more. People join a 30-day fitness challenge not for the discount, but because others are posting daily and they want to participate.”(21:22) – “Customer acquisition is measurable and fast, which is why VCs love it. Retention is a long-term play, it's demand gen, brand equity, and profitability over three to five years.”(28:30) – “Marketers need to stop obsessing over CAC. In my world, it's 30% CAC, 70% retention and lifetime value.”(32:23) – “For sponsored posts in-community, we've seen brands charge $15 to $60 CPMs, because the audience is hyper-focused and conversion rates are so much higher.”Mentioned in this episodeSocial Plus (social.plus)Advi on Linkedin

Send us a textJoin us as Mark Goldhart and Trevor Crump explore the critical importance of creative velocity and diversity in digital advertising. They dive into how uploading varied content more frequently can lead to lower CPMs and better overall ad performance. The duo shares insights on leveraging user-generated content, the value of static ads, and why aiming for "lightning in a bottle" isn't a sustainable strategy. They also touch on the Pareto principle in advertising and draw parallels with sports to illustrate the need for consistent, predictable outcomes in marketing.Follow  ⁨@unstoppablemarketerpodcast⁩ on instagram and youtube for daily marketing insights and direct feedback.

In Episode 271, we dive into one of the most critical parts of the Podcast Playbook: monetization. Podcasting is one of the most powerful tools for business development, but it comes with real costs — hardware, software, editing, your time, and even promotion. That's why monetization is not optional if you want your show to survive and thrive long term. In this episode, I walk you through why monetization matters, how to set yourself up for success early, and the five main revenue streams available to you as a podcaster: sponsorships, dynamic ad insertion, affiliate marketing, products and services, and paid communities.We also explore what sponsors are truly looking for, how to create compelling sponsorship packages, and why small niche shows can often command higher CPMs than large, general audiences. I share the pitfalls to avoid — from undervaluing your show to taking misaligned sponsors — and the long-term view you'll need to make monetization sustainable. Whether you're just starting or already running your podcast, this episode gives you the proven strategies to not only cover your costs but also to build real revenue that can support your growth for years to come.Key Takeaways: 1. Monetization is not optional — it's the only way to sustain a podcast long term.2. Hardware, software, hosting, editing, and promotion all carry costs that add up quickly.3. Planning for monetization early, including choosing a host with dynamic ad insertion, sets you up for success.4. Podcasts can generate revenue through sponsorships, dynamic ads, affiliate marketing, products and services, and paid communities.5. Sponsors care more about audience fit, consistency, and engagement than just download numbers.6. CPM (cost per thousand downloads) is a useful benchmark, but niche shows can command far higher rates.7. Even small podcasts with hundreds of downloads can monetize effectively if their audience is valuable to the right sponsors.8. Building custom sponsorship packages that include social posts, community mentions, and creative integrations adds major value.9. Avoid pitfalls like undervaluing your show, relying on one income stream, or taking sponsors that don't align with your audience.10. Monetization is a long game — start small, stay consistent, and treat every deal as planting seeds for future sustainability.✨ Join The Catalyst ClubIf you're ready to take the next step in your journey, don't go it alone. Inside The Catalyst Club, you'll find a private community of entrepreneurs, thought leaders, and podcasters who are walking the same path as you. It's a place built on support, collaboration, and growth — where you can share your wins, tackle challenges, and get the accountability you need to keep moving forward.The Catalyst Club was built for leaders like you — because if you know, you're known.

(Originally released September 2023) #349: Shelby Church has been a YouTube content creator for over 10 years, covering everything lifestyle, tech and business related. She has amassed an audience of 1.7 million subscribers and over 100 million total video views. She has been featured in multiple articles from Business Insider covering YouTube analytics and CPMs. She also has a series on her Airbnb in Palm Springs - showing everything from renovations, to the numbers behind the business.Topics discussed:Importance of high-yield savings accountLife as a content creator and YouTuberReality of buying and renovating a home to rent outBest business banks for young entrepreneurs and freelancersIdeal percentage of your income to save in order to have substantial savingsPerks of airport lounges if you travel frequentlyENJOY 10% OFF THE WHAT FULFILLS YOU? CARD GAME AT www.whatfulfillsyou.com - code "WHATFULFILLSYOU10"Follow Shelby Church on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shelbychurchFollow the What Fulfills You? Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatfulfillsyouFollow Emily Elizabeth's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emilyeduongSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/what-fulfills-you-podcast/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Social ad spend is growing but over half of it still goes to waste. In this first episode of The Media Lift Effect, a special SocialMinds × Brave Talk collaboration, host Eve Young is joined by Gareth Harrison (SocialChain) and Mark Byrne (Brave Bison) to unpack why performance is falling short — and what needs to change.  They explore the new realities of rising CPMs, fractured attention, and misleading last-click attribution. And introduce a smarter model built for how people move through social: aligning creative, media, and measurement to reduce waste and lift performance.  From creator content to dwell time, organic signals to data-driven attribution — this is your reset on what effective social performance really looks like. 

David Webb's Yarnhub pulls 400 million annual views for cinematic WW2 stories—no ad spend required. On Inside Startup Investing he details how that captive audience now funds a historically accurate video-game, why the company's CPMs beat integration ads, and the path to 3–5 billion monthly views across multiple channels. If MrBeast can sell burgers, Yarnhub can sell history. Listen in and judge whether this next-gen studio merits a spot in your alt-portfolio.Accidental media empire. Webb left Intel, acquired “War History Online,” and pivoted from publishing to high-quality animated shorts on YouTube.Huge organic reach. Yarnhub generates ~35 M YouTube views and ~150 K new subs per month—with minimal paid advertising.Quality over clickbait. Films cost ~$40 K each, use game-engine animation, and weave “goose-bump” human stories rather than dry battle timelines.Revenue today. ~US $1 M annual from YouTube ads; expected to scale to several million as channels expand.The bigger play. Audience demand led Yarnhub to develop a WW2-themed game—with 40 K Steam wish-lists after just a few months.

Everyone's chasing influencers and TikTok—but there's one old-school channel quietly crushing it for CPG brands: radio. In this episode, Mark and Justin pull back the curtain on how they've used radio to drive explosive in-store sales, cut through media clutter, and dominate overlooked markets with laughably low CPMs. They're not just talking theory—they break down real campaigns that worked (and why), including how to target truckers with satellite radio, trigger impulse grocery buys on drive-time, and hijack weather reports to sell skin cream. Why most marketers are dead wrong about radio's reach How to geo-target and time-target ads without digital The art of making radio creative that actually converts A "vomit or no vomit" campaign that beat Pepto at their own game Want a media edge your competitors aren't even thinking about? Listen now.

Struggling to break past six figures with your Meta (Facebook) ads? In this episode of The Growth Marketing Stories podcast, Aazar sits down with Ovidia, founder of the eight-figure brand Perfect Jean, to reveal actionable strategies for scaling paid media, creative operations, and unlocking consistent ad winners.

Send us a textIn this episode of The Sports Marketing Machine Podcast, host Jeremy Neisser shares why consistent video content is no longer a "nice-to-have" — it's the cornerstone of a smarter paid media strategy. Whether you're trying to warm up cold audiences, lower your ad costs, or re-engage past ticket buyers, video is the most powerful (and underused) tool in your marketing playbook.Jeremy explains how short-form videos help you build trust, increase engagement, and improve targeting — even on a tight budget. He also shares real-world examples and actionable tips for sports teams to use video content to drive more clicks, conversions, and repeat attendance.

So, Libsyn just flipped the script on podcast monetization. No more minimum download requirements. That's right — whether your show gets 5 downloads or 5,000, you can now run programmatic ads and make some money just for publishing your podcast. But here's the real question: just because you can… should you? In this episode of Podtastic Audio, we dig into what this change really means for indie podcasters. Is this the golden ticket to finally “getting paid,” or does it risk turning your passion project into a string of ads your listeners skip in 30 seconds flat? We're talking:

Subscribe to DTC Newsletter - https://dtcnews.link/signupIn this episode of the DTC Podcast, Eric Dyck hosts Taylor Cain and Jacob from Pilothouse Meta Brain Trust to unpack how high-volume DTC brands test creative at scale on Meta. Learn their hybrid approach using ABO for insight discovery and Advantage Plus/CBO for scaling winners—while keeping testing spend lean at 5–10% of total budget.Key Moments & Takeaways:30+ ads/week testing: how they structure ABO for high-velocity creative discoveryBudget allocation: keep risk predictable by dedicating a small portion to testsMeta signals: what defines ‘net-new creative' and how visuals/text/video intros affect deliveryAI vs. human oversight: balancing Meta's algorithm with strategic media buyingHealth & wellness challenges: dealing with regressions in data permissionsChannel diversification: why brands pivot to AppLovin amid Meta data limitationsSeasonality playbook: capitalizing on lower CPMs pre-summer and prepping for prime Q4Did you know that 98% of your website visitors are anonymous? Instant powers next-level retention by identifying who they are and converting them into loyal shoppers. Sign up for a quick demo today to get 50% off and unlock a guaranteed 4x+ ROI: instant.one/dtcTimestamps00:00 – Why July is the best time to stock the pond for Q402:05 – Creative testing structures: ABO vs. ASC vs. CBO06:50 – Meta's evolving definition of “net new creative”11:55 – How Meta's AI systems (Andromeda, GEM, Lattice) influence delivery17:35 – Health and wellness brands and Meta's tracking limitations22:00 – AppLovin's rise as an alternative channel for supplement brands23:45 – Prime Day effects on Meta ad performance and purchase intentHashtags#MetaAds#FacebookAds#CreativeTesting#EcommerceMarketing#DTCBrands#PerformanceMarketing#PaidSocial#DigitalAdvertising#PilotHouse#AllKillerNoFiller Subscribe to DTC Newsletter - https://dtcnews.link/signupAdvertise on DTC - https://dtcnews.link/advertiseWork with Pilothouse - https://dtcnews.link/pilothouseFollow us on Instagram & Twitter - @dtcnewsletterWatch this interview on YouTube - https://dtcnews.link/video

Social commerce is booming. Learn how brands use TikTok Shop, influencer campaigns, and spark ads to drive engagement and how it boosts your Amazon sales.   Can TikTok Shop really be the ultimate game-changer for brands aiming to make millions together with Amazon? Join us as we welcome Sohun Sanka, who brings firsthand experience from TikTok Shop's inception in the US, to uncover the secrets behind this booming social commerce platform. From algorithms to government scrutiny, we dissect what makes TikTok a revolutionary tool for brand success and how it stands apart from traditional platforms like Amazon and Shopify.   Discover how TikTok Shop's seamless in-app purchasing is setting new standards in e-commerce, offering brands lower CPMs and remarkable attribution capabilities. We take you through the maze of TikTok's advertising landscape, highlighting innovative ad types like Spark ads and live shopping ads that are transforming consumer engagement. Learn the strategic differences between organic content and paid ads, and why TikTok's approach to integrating shopping links directly into videos can potentially skyrocket your brand's conversions and awareness.   Engaging influencers effectively on TikTok is more than just a trend; it's a necessity. We explore the evolving landscape of influencer marketing with a focus on performance-based agreements and gamification. Hear about the transition from flat fee models to dynamic commission structures, and how brands are fostering communities of brand ambassadors to drive unmatched success. Dive into the intricacies of TikTok's strict content guidelines and discover how clear content blueprints can elevate your affiliate program. With Sohun's insights, unlock the potential to optimize your brand's impact on TikTok Shop like never before.   In episode 453 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Sohun discuss: 00:00 - TikTok Shop Strategy and Success 02:32 - Early Days of TikTok Shop 10:46 - The Power of Social Commerce 13:38 - TikTok Shop Advertising Strategy Insights 18:54 - Boosting Amazon Sales Through TikTok 19:32 - Effective Influencer Acquisition Strategies 24:45 - Creator Acquisition Lever Through Contests 27:22 - Influencer Retainer Strategies & Success 29:06 - Influencer Ambassador Program Success Strategies 34:28 - Strategic Approach to TikTok Marketing 36:41 - TikTok Shop Rules and Strategies 40:10 - Impact of Brand Affiliate Programs

With websites covering topics like entertainment (ScreenRant), gaming (Polygon) and automotive (CarBuzz), Valnet caters to users across a wide array of interests.But according to Ji Heon Kim, Valnet's head of monetization, Valnet realized it could create more value for its users by encouraging them to subscribe or authenticate themselves.Maybe a “mass scale” of users wouldn't sign up for their websites, but perhaps 10% would. And, as Kim puts it, that “10% would still be valuable, and we can do a lot with that 10%.”“We created more value to [those] users, more exclusive content and high-quality content,” Kim says. “All of that became an initiative on the content side for us to deliver a premium model and give users an incentive to sign up.”Kim further talked with The Current Podcast about balancing advertiser value, user experience and performance, which he says are “always affecting each other.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler, and welcome to The Current Podcast. Today we're talking to one of the biggest digital publishers. You might not know by name, but you've definitely read their stuff. I'm talking about Net. The company behind Screen Rant, the Gamer, Kaleida make use of, and a bunch of other sites that rack up hundreds of millions of sessions every month. Joining me today is Ji Kim Valnet's, head of monetization. Ji'S been leading the charge on everything from supply path optimization to first party data to figuring out how to drive real revenue without compromising the reader experience. We'll get into some of the big shifts they've made in their tech stack and how they're bringing newly acquired brands like Polygon into their ecosystem and what other publishers can learn from their approach.Ji Kim (00:52):At Valnet, I'd like to think of us as a publishing powerhouse. We started very small. Our motto is humble and hungry. We like to remind ourselves that it's always good to keep a humble mindset. I've been at NET for 10 years and we've grown tremendously. We've went through a lot ups and downs, but even as we grow, we like to think that we're small and agile and the publications we range from automotive, gaming, technology, entertainment, but entertainment has always been our flagship, but we've been kind of branching outside of that and trying to expand more and more. And then we have some lifestyle brands as well as sports.Damian Fowler (01:35):Let's talk about a moment that changed the game for Net. Can you walk us through your, I guess we're going to talk about supply path optimization at first anyway, which is a hot topic around these parts and what work you did around supply path optimization, like cutting resellers and boosting direct inventory. Could you talk us through that a little?Ji Kim (01:57):It's an ongoing process. It's certainly, I think most people agree that SPO is not an easy thing to achieve. You can commit to it one shot, but that's much harder to do considering that there will be a revenue impact. So for us, we tried both ways. We took a few sites and we took the direct approach and we saw a pretty decent stability, and then some other sites did not, and then we have to kind of revert back to it. SPO, it was always a topic that was talked about but not well enforced. And tradedesk took a big initiative to push publishers towards it. And then we started working closely with Jounce Media as well, with Chris Kane started kind of talking through some of the ideas, how should we go about it? How do we retain the value and still achieve removing the resale alliance and keep our inventory as clean as possible?(02:51):But initially our outlook of SPO was about making our inventory as clean and transparent as possible. Net considers ourselves as a premium publisher and we want to make sure that the advertisers see that as well. So we were heading in that direction. But ultimately, I think the biggest challenge with SPO was it's impossible to do an AB test because you have one A TXT file and you can't test one setup with the resell alliance, one setup without. So that's been pretty challenging to understand where's the value going, where is it coming from? And even with the Resell Alliance, when you talk to the SSPs with Resell Alliance, they'll go, oh, these are PP deals. These are not just rebroadcasting and all this stuff. So trying to understand the granularity and all that details of what each resale align means was very difficult. But ultimately we know we have to go in that direction, but we know it's not going to happen overnight, so we're kind of just taking a step at a time.Damian Fowler (03:51):That's great. What would you say was the kind of catalyst or moment that sparked that shift?Ji Kim (03:57):We always talked about advertiser value. It is important to yield as much value as possible and get the performance that we need. We always think that advertiser value is important, and when we think about that, it's like you go through stages. You go, okay, viewability needs to be important. Let's get viewability up to above standard, above average, make sure our CTR is good, but it's high quality clicks. It's not just users just clicking on stuff. Then you go through the lines and eventually you get to SPOs. Make sure that advertisers know what inventory they're getting access to, what they're buying, and make sure that they're getting insights. The transparency is there. Then we've increased the value of our inventory.Damian Fowler (04:46):Yeah, I mean that's the key, right, obviously. And speaking of that, having made these changes, are you in a position to be able to see the kind of impact that they've had from a revenueJi Kim (04:58):Perspective? Honestly, I don't think I can everything, especially with these kinds of stuff, what I've learned is it doesn't change overnight. Let's say we remove all the reseller lines yesterday. Today, likely the performance is going to drop initially and maybe things recover over time, but there's so many moving parts that it's hard to associate the value towards SPO, and that's a lot of things that we do in this industry. But I think that's when we like to look at it as, you know what? Ultimately we are improving the quality of our inventory, so we will get rewarded at some point. And that's how you move forward. But with SPO, I think the other side is that it's not just about removing reseller lines. You also have to market yourself and tell the advertisers that, Hey, we have gone in this direction. We have removed the reseller lines. All of our inventory is direct. It's clean. And that part is also hard to do. We haven't spent a lot of time or resources into marketing ourselves, and that's why we talked about, people may not know net, but they know our brands. It's the same thing. It's like we are now making a big push to let people know who Val net is, and that's going to go in hand in hand with this stuff.Damian Fowler (06:21):In terms of that messaging around the surgery as it were you're doing on the supply path, does that land well with advertisers?Ji Kim (06:32):I think it's always positively looked at when you tell them, it's like everybody, it is never negative, but I don't know if actually if it's meaningful for them because at scale, they're buying at scale. So yeah, we're a big publisher, but they're also buying at multiple publishers. Maybe only small portion of their budgets come to us. So it's positive, but I don't know if it's all that meaningful to them. At least that's what I've felt.Damian Fowler (07:04):So in addition to the SPO, what other tweaks or changes are you as head of monetization looking at to basically bring in those ad dollars and keep readers satisfied, I suppose?Ji Kim (07:17):Yeah, so there's three things. So we looked at the advertiser value, but then there's the user experience and then the performance side. So always those three things, there's constantly affecting each other. Ad density is probably one of the biggest part of advertiser value and performance and user experience. So we are constantly trying to reduce our density, and we look at this metric impressions per session and request per session. So we look at that and injections our injections based on content length, a paragraph breaks and all that stuff. So we'll try to work with the content team to create optimal breaks. I'll have a little sit down session with the content team. The leads say, okay, this is how the admin injection works, and how you break out your content really does impact, because we won't break a paragraph in half to inject an ad. So there needs to be natural breaks for the ads to inject. So if you have massive paragraphs, we're going to have less ad injections, which is fine if the content works like that, but they also need to think about how all this stuff works.Damian Fowler (08:26):That's really interesting. I mean, I think that sweet spot between not being the Vegas strip, but also ads have to populate at the right time to have value.Ji Kim (08:35):For net, we've focused mostly on open market programmatic spend. We have a small direct initiative. This is something that we've been trying to grow, but when you don't have huge direct sales initiative and direct spend coming in, you kind of need the density because the CPMs that you get from open market is much lower. So we want to try to move away from that as much as possible. I don't think found that will ever be a publisher where we drive like 50% of the revenue from direct sales, but we want to grow it to maybe 15, 20%. And once we do that, we can yield higher CPMs, which allows us to reduce the density, which would be better for advertiser value, better for user experience, and we'll still get the performance that we need to kind of go forward.Damian Fowler (09:24):So it's a balance.Ji Kim (09:25):Yeah. Yeah. I think if we can drive higher CPMs, we would love to reduce density, but it's always the constant battle between the two of, okay, well we reduced density. Oh, we went too far. Okay, we got to bring it back a little bit.Damian Fowler (09:38):How difficult is it to kind of innovate in ad tech? This is a broader question, I guess given how fast things are changing, especially on the programmatic front,Ji Kim (09:47):It's been very, very difficult. Rapidly changing environment is definitely one of them, and you have to adapt quickly. For example, the video definition of having instream outstream, and then now there's a third definition of accompanying that stuff. When it happened, the enforcement happened quickly, so we had to adapt quickly, and that's difficult. But innovating is, I think, much more difficult than just adapting to the new policies and new rules. So many different ways to innovate pre, for example, you have the open source code, you build that, but there's so many customizations that you can do and even a single customization, you interpret how you should approach that topic and how you should build your tech. So you kind of have to talk to your developers and walk through. And our biggest challenge I would say was bridging the gap between developers and ad ops. I was like, because I am an ad ops guy, I understand programmatic landscape very well, but our developers do not. And I'm not a developer, I'm not a technical guy. Obviously through 10 years I've learned a lot of stuff, but still, if I needed to build something, I'm not going to be able to tell them exactly how to build it. So you need somebody in the middle that understands both sides,(11:03):And that was the most difficult part. And eventually we did find resources that they were able to bridge that gap and were able to build stuff. But ultimately, there's just so many different ways to build your product and you want to make sure that product that you build or tech stack that you build is going to keep that balance that you need between the user experience, the performance, and the density, everything that pertains to page speed as well. If you build it to be too slow, everything gets affected as well, and that's harder to tell. So yeah.Damian Fowler (11:37):So how have some of these technical changes influenced your broad and monetization philosophy?Ji Kim (11:43):Yeah, so I guess one of the things, if we talk about authentication, we talk about cookie deprecation and why authentication became so important to majority of the publishers. And I remember our thought process around authentication was pretty pessimistic, I would say. But eventually we said know what? We can create content or value for the users that's going to want them to sign up and want them to get authenticated. And we said we got to start somewhere. Ultimately, maybe we've become a little bit more realistic about what critical mass of a value would be if we're at, if we're expecting 50% of users will log in, that's not going to happen, but 10% is still very meaningful. So it was about our philosophy was changing, about our expectations changing and still understanding that 10% could be very valuable and we can do a lot with that 10%. So we created more value to the users are more exclusive content, high quality content, high quality videos. All of that stuff became an initiative on the content side for us to deliver the premium model and to give users the incentive to authenticate a sign up on.Damian Fowler (13:03):That's really interesting. I think one of the things that also I'm hearing is that you kind of have different audiences, but you're getting to understand your audiences. I mean, this strategy gives you more insight into who's coming.Ji Kim (13:15):Yeah. We also created what we call threads. They can talk about the article, talk about topics that we're discussing, and that really improved our engagement.Damian Fowler (13:30):As you look to the future, how do you think about, as it were, locking in some of these changes and this value that you see from this audience?Ji Kim (13:40):So I want to go back a little bit about innovating and how difficult it is. So I went through the stages of, okay, what am I focusing on to optimize to yield more value? And initially it was demand. Okay, we want to work with as many high quality as P as possible, but then you do work with all of them. There are going to be going to be one or two that come here and there, but generally speaking, they're not going to create incremental value. They'll just take a piece of pie that was taken by somebody else, not meaningful value. Then you work on ad tech innovation, all that stuff, and that we'll continuously work on that, but that also has lots of limitations, and you eventually reach a plateau point of say, you're not going to find a lot low hanging fruits. So now we come to premium inventory, which we need to learn our users, we need to learn who they are so we can offer these users to our advertisers to grow our PMP programmatic direct, as well as your conventional IO based direct deals that's going to yield as higher CPMs.Damian Fowler (14:53):Yeah, I mean, talk of premium inventories is characteristic of the moment we are in when it comes to programmatic sales for publishers.Ji Kim (15:02):Yeah.Damian Fowler (15:04):Let's draw back and look at the big picture and some of the kind of industry context. I guess think I'm correct in saying Valnet reach has more than 400 million sessions a month across its network. That's correct. And how do you think about that, that kind of scale when every property has its own audience profile and publishing rhythm?Ji Kim (15:30):Yeah, it's sometimes a bit overwhelming how much reach our sites have, but I always try to look at it as our advantage, and this is the opportunity that hasn't been tapped into, is that okay, we're 95% of our inventory is sold in the open market, and we have so much data that we could collect and leverage in order to drive higher value. And it's just looking at it, it's overwhelming, but you start to see the real value that hasn't been tapped into, and that's exciting, but it's also very, very difficult to manage all that information, manage that data, and use it properly. So yeah, I mean it excites me, but also I know how challenging it can be to create value through that. So we're taking one step at a time, even first party data collection. I wouldn't say we're crazy sophisticated, but we're keeping it a level that we know how to manage and understanding it well first and then starting to kind of grow a step-by-step.Damian Fowler (16:45):Yeah, I mean, I suppose the whole back and forth about third party cookies may have provided a spark. I know it lit a fire under the industry. Speaking of first party data, so that is a focus for you?Ji Kim (16:56):Yes, yes. But I believe when it was really a huge focus for the industry was when Google had first announced that they're going to deprecate third party cookies, and we had the initial moment of, oh, you know what? We also need to look into this, but we didn't want to panic. Our outlook was, I'm sure everybody went through the initial panic. We did too, but we didn't want to stay in that moment. And we said, okay, what's realistically going to happen for publishers like us? How much first party data can we collect and really sell because we don't have a huge direct sales initiative? And at that point we had none. And you can't grow direct sales overnight. It's a highly competitive environment, and you're entering that new market. You have to build relationships, you have to have crazy amount of salespeople that are constantly going out there representing balance inventory.(17:55):And we weren't set up for that, and we weren't willing to just fully invest everything into growing that at the time. So we said, well, maybe first party data isn't as important. Collecting first part data isn't as important as just understanding how to go about direct sales. So that's what we worked on. We've hired salespeople, we enter that space. I was very naive about how direct sales worked, and now we have a better understanding. We have good salespeople that understand our values as well. We don't want to just go out and sell anything and everything. We want to understand the creative types that we're also selling isn't going to impact user experience horribly and negatively. The high impact guys, the site scans when they're done, right, it's great user experience, but it could also go the other way. So we wanted to build a baseline first, and that's what we did the last few years. And now we can go after the first party data in a more sustainable way for us.Damian Fowler (18:56):Let's talk about your acquisition of Polygon from Vox Media. Speaking of inventory that expands the real estate, how does that property fit into what you're doing?Ji Kim (19:07):So Polygon, obviously, we go through a lot of due diligences. We look at different opportunities, and Polygon was an easy one to go through because we knew Polygon has great content, it has a great foundation of creating high quality content. But the difference was that Fox has a lot of direct sales. I can't remember the exact number, but it could have been 75%, 80% of their revenue was generated, direct sold inventory, and then 20% was open market. And for us, it would've been the other way around, flipped around even less. Maybe 95% open market, 5% directive. Initially when we acquired it would've been a hundred percent open market, but that's also why it excite us because it's a premium inventory that doesn't get seen in the open market. Open market buyers don't see the bid requests coming from that website as much. So we're super happy, but we knew this was a high quality inventory, high quality website, and we knew that there was a very small chance that it was going to go poorly.Damian Fowler (20:20):Interesting. When you buy a property like that, you're actually buying an audience to a certain extent.Ji Kim (20:25):Yeah, absolutely.Damian Fowler (20:27):Do you think about audiences as discreet to the publications or do you see crossover?Ji Kim (20:34):Crossover? Yeah, lots of crossover.Damian Fowler (20:37):Yeah. Alright. So I guess the big question here is for other publishers looking to upgrade this strategy that we're talking about, especially in this very complex environment, which is something you clearly understand very deeply, what's one piece of advice that you might offer?Ji Kim (20:54):I think you have to think about realistically what you should go after, what opportunities you should go after. So many things that come up right now, I think the big thing is curated media. And on our end, a lot of the SSPs and DSPs are doing the work for us. They going out and curating our inventory for us, and that's fine. But if you were to go after that and trying to grow it, but you don't really have the resources, it's easy to just kind of see everybody, what everyone else is doing, like, oh, I want a piece of that too, but it's not going to yield the value. Same value if you don't have the right resources in place if you're not focused on that opportunity. So my advice would be to understand which opportunities realistically are you able to get and have the right resources who are going to be passionate about that. Take accountability. That's huge, the accountability part. And that's not something you can just kind of force people. You have to believe that this person that's taking on this project can be really passionate and sink their teeth into it. If you got that, then go after those things. But it's too hard to go after every single opportunity there is. Even if seemingly it seems like a low hanging fruit. Nothing is really that simple in this industry.Damian Fowler (22:15):That's for sure. So finally, we're going to wrap this up with some what we call hot seat questions. So what's one thing you're obsessed with figuring out right now?Ji Kim (22:27):How to yield more value? No, no, no. I'll give a better answer than that right now. For me, it's how to grow direct sales sustainably and scale it in a way that we don't get too bloated. Because through acquisitions, one of the most valuable things that I get is insight. I get to see under the hood of a lot of publishers, small to medium to large, how they operate, what is their strategy and direct sales. I've learned some of the big publishers do it extremely well. It's a well-oiled machine, it's not bloated. They generate a ton of revenue, but some have a huge cost, and that's what we were afraid of. And right now it's very hard to do. So you need the right sales team, you need the right operational guys, you need account representation, you need reporting guide and all this stuff. And right now I am trying to find a way to scale it, but without having massive costs, just kind of take over and then expect this to yield value in the next year or two. I want that line to kind of grow together. And that's not an easy thing to do, obviously. And I'm looking for the right resources. I'm looking to build relationships with agencies with limited guys, just hustle through it and offer them our inventory, charm them, whatever it may take. But yeah, that's what I'm currently obsessed.Damian Fowler (24:01):Okay. What's still missing in the ad tech stack that you wish someone would build?Ji Kim (24:07):I don't know if this would fall under their ad tech stack, but I think we could really benefit from a bit more standardization around, it could be reporting and creatives. Maybe I'm speaking out of line because I'm on the inventory side, so I don't know everything that goes on the buy side and the creative side. But what I see is that there's so many different creatives that just either break the page, the creative's broken, it's too heavy, it slows down the page, and it's hard to target those and remove those. It can come through so many different channels. So if there is a bit more standardization around what kind of creatives are acceptable, I'm sure there is some or a standard already, but it needs to be honed in a bit more maybe.Damian Fowler (25:00):What's one thing advertisers misunderstand about monetizing Publish it inventory today?Ji Kim (25:08):So I thought about this and something that it's more of my frustration around advertisers perspective. I understand it, but a bit more frustration because it's hard to create context around it, which is brand safety. I understand the brand side. I advertise side on why they wouldn't want to associate their brand with certain content, but brand safety is police by keyword list and it's very restrictive. And some of the,Damian Fowler (25:37):It's one toolJi Kim (25:38):And it's like, okay, and we have gaming sites that will, a lot of gaming, natural will talk about shooting, but some of the game developers won't want to associate with those articles. And it's like, hang on, hang on. Now you bet you guys also have games that are first person shooter or whatnot. You don't want to associate with those type of articles. There's a bit of a mismatch, and I think it's just hard to manage that. So they go with a broader approach and I get it, but I think it's just there needs to be more about understanding the context of certain articles. And it's like the word shooting can be anything, everything. Right?Damian Fowler (26:22):Yeah, I like that. I've been hearing more about a shift from brand safety to brand suitability, which brings in the concept of context. What's something unexpected you've learned from reader data or behavior recently?Ji Kim (26:39):So I wouldn't say it's recent, but it's something that's surprises me how the smallest change that I, from my perspective is like, is that really going to do anything? But at our scale, the numbers changed so drastically. Recently we were playing around with the video size because our outstream unit will float once the user are scrolling and the size of that unit. Obviously we want to give advertiser value, so we want to make it as big as possible. But then user experience wise, it could be very bothersome because as they're trying to read, there's a video playing. So we want to keep mindful of that. And we're constantly testing the size of that unit and we decreased by 10% and 10%. While it's significant, if you look at the actual size of the unit to the naked eye, you really wouldn't be able to tell what the difference is. But the CTR of that video unit changed drastically. It was cut in half, actually. And that's the thing is like, okay, users are really sensitive to these things. And to me it's not, maybe I'm looking at it too often, but that's always, that boggles my mind and it always catches me by surprise when I see the numbers is like, wow, I did not expect that. I did not expect users to behave this way.Damian Fowler (28:00):That's amazing. The details really matter.Ji Kim (28:02):Yeah, Big time. Damian Fowler (28:03):And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week. The Current Podcast is produced by Molten Hart. A theme is by Love and Caliber, and our associate producer is Sydney Cairns. And remember,Ji Kim (28:21):I like to think of us as a publishing powerhouse. We started very small. Our motto is humble and hungry. We like to remind ourselves that it's always good to keep a humble mindset.Damian Fowler (28:34):I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

Hey sisters! This week you get a bonus episode — and trust me, it's a good one. On Monday, we talked all about what a doula is (and why that matters even before you get pregnant). Today, we're diving into the next big question: What is a midwife? And how does a midwife compare to an OB? If you're like me, maybe you didn't even know midwives existed outside of “old-fashioned” stories — until God opened my eyes. After experiencing OB care through my miscarriages and even into my third trimester with my rainbow baby, I finally learned there was another option. Episode Highlights: What a midwife actually is The difference between OBs and midwives Why your care model really matters — even before you're pregnant How midwives support things naturally, while OBs are trained in disease and intervention The types of midwives: CNMs vs CPMs (and what each one is trained in) What my own experience switching from an OB to a home birth midwife was like — and why it was so different You'll hear about Midwife RX, a telehealth option I recommend for those needing progesterone prescriptions or early care. We'll also talk about how midwives can serve you pre-conception, not just during pregnancy. And if you take away just one thing today, let it be this: You have options. And those options are worth exploring with prayer and intention.

Dots Oyebolu chats with Larry Kim, Founder and CEO of Customers.ai.Larry shares his groundbreaking approach to go-to-market strategies in the B2C space, challenging the dominance of ad-heavy models and introducing a scalable, intent-driven framework for outbound email marketing. From the evolution of PPC to hyper-personalized campaigns powered by AI, this conversation explores how marketers can rethink engagement, improve deliverability and expand their reach without sacrificing relevance or compliance.Key Takeaways:(02:11) Customers.ai identifies website visitors using AI for outbound marketing.(03:53) The future of marketing is hyper-personalized and AI-driven, with individualized video sales letters and content.(07:39) B2C companies are now facing ROI challenges in digital ads due to skyrocketing CPMs.(09:02) Intent-driven email marketing can provide higher quality leads for B2C businesses at a fraction of ad costs.(16:17) “Intent-driven outbounding” is a new category blending the best of inbound and outbound strategies.(18:41) Three strategic pillars are dynamic list generation, deliverability tools and email list hygiene.(33:18) AI-powered creative customization tailors messages to user behavior, identity and journey.(40:17) Customers.ai restores first-party data pipelines, overcoming modern browser and privacy restrictions.(46:11) CAN-SPAM monitors compliance in the US but strategic discomfort boosts innovation.Resources Mentioned:Larry Kimhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/larrykim/Customers.ai | LinkedInhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/customersai/Customers.ai | Websitehttps://customers.aiInsightful Links:https://customers.ai/bloghttps://userlist.com/blog/b2c-saas-email-marketing/https://www.business2community.com/brandviews/marketo/leverage-social-intent-data-email-marketing-01818638https://martech.org/4-qualities-of-an-intent-driven-marketing-automation-email-program/Thanks for listening to the “Marketing Leadership” podcast, brought to you by Listen Network. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review to help get the word out about the show. And be sure to subscribe so you never miss another insightful conversation.We appreciate the enthusiasm and support from our community. Currently, we are not accepting new guest interview requests as we focus on our existing lineup. We will announce when we reopen for new submissions. In the meantime, feel free to explore our past episodes and stay tuned for updates on future opportunities.#PodcastMarketing #PerformanceMarketing #BrandMarketing #MarketingStrategy #MarketingIntelligence #GTM #B2BMarketing #D2CMarketing #PodcastAds

Michelle chats again with sōsh team member Maggie Golden about the constantly evolving marketing world. They explore current patterns in marketing, rising ad costs, and how the way we use hashtags is changing. A.I. zaps into the conversation, too.Tune in for their takes on the death of keyword stuffing, the rise of schema SEO markup, and why memes might just be your brand's secret weapon. Grab your earbuds and get ready for a fun ride through what's working (and what's failing) in today's marketing world. Spoiler: it's all about being real and a little weird.Social Soup is meant to be shared! Subscribe and tell your friends about the show.Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn: ⁠linkedin.com/in/michelledattilio⁠ Connect with Maggie on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/maggiegoldenmke Learn more about sōsh! Visit our website and reach out at: ⁠getsosh.com ⁠  Grab more Social Soup again next time!

Justin Ruiss is the SVP of the Media Sector at BWG Global, a knowledge-sharing network hosting in-person and virtual industry events. In his role, he hosts Q&A forums with executives from various sectors, including social media, advertising, connected TV, streaming, and gaming. Before joining BWG Global, Justin was the Investor Relations Activations Developer at Cision and an Equity Analyst at The Benchmark Company. In this episode… Retail media, CTV advertising, and AI-powered search are evolving faster than many brands can adapt. Marketers are grappling with fragmented content strategies, fluctuating CPMs, and uncertainty around how to allocate budgets effectively across platforms. With performance expectations rising and consumer behaviors shifting, how can brands stay competitive without overspending? According to media and eCommerce analyst Justin Ruiss, now is an ideal time to invest in CTV due to oversupply, lower CPMs, and advanced targeting capabilities. He recommends increasing production budgets to create modular, high-quality content that can be repurposed across channels like TikTok, Amazon, and streaming platforms. Brands can also adopt centralized content planning and leverage tools like Amazon Marketing Cloud to drive enhanced targeting and performance while planning for economic volatility and regulatory changes. In this episode of TheDigital Deep Dive, Aaron Conant interviews Justin Ruiss, SVP of the Media Sector at BWG Global, about the future of digital media buying and AI in eCommerce. Justin explores CTV trends, the rise of agentic AI, and how brand guidelines shape content in gaming environments.

Podcast Summary: Cracking the Meta Code — Scaling Ads with Strategy, Not Just SpendIn this episode, Sacha Awwa sits down with Manel Gomez, a Meta ad specialist managing $300K–$500K/month in spend for e-commerce brands across the U.S. and Europe. With over $25M in profitable ad spend under his belt and regular appearances at Meta HQ, Manel breaks down the technical evolution of Facebook Ads and how founders can navigate the increasingly competitive paid social landscape.From bidding strategies to AI tools and platform trends, Manel offers a masterclass in modern media buying. Whether you're spending $30 or $30,000/day, this episode is a must-listen for anyone trying to make paid ads work in 2025.Key Topics Discussed:1. The Evolution of Meta AdvertisingHow ad strategy shifted from 2016's low-hanging fruit to today's competitive battlefieldThe impact of COVID in three waves: low CPMs, the “golden era,” and post-boom attritionWhy today's ad success requires deeper thinking, not just platform familiarity2. Budget, ROAS & Reality ChecksThe importance of setting a daily budget based on your average order value (AOV)Why under-spending leads to poor machine learning performanceHow to manage client expectations on ROAS and discovery3. Manual Bidding & Wave SurfingThe power of manual bidding: cost cap vs. bid cap explained“Overbidding” to dominate the auction and bully competitorsTiming ad spend around consumer behavior, pay cycles, and Shopify data4. Creatives That ConvertWhy most user-generated content (UGC) is dying outTesting different formats (before/after, meme-style, image vs. video)Finding the one ad that drives scale—it's 95/5, not 80/205. Platform Myths & Meta's Real AgendaWhy you should ignore most Facebook rep suggestionsAdvantage+ and multi-advertiser placement: what to watch out forThe coming wave of Instagram Checkout and native shopping within Meta6. The AI Reality CheckWhy AI is useful—but not a magic wandHow tools like 11 Labs and Lovvo.ai can improve scale and localizationWhy human strategy still beats automation—for nowKey Takeaways for Founders & Media Buyers:Don't skip the research. It fuels every winning ad.Testing should be intentional, not guesswork.Your first goal is to find one killer creative.Strategic spend > impulsive scale.Ride the market waves—don't fight them.Follow Manel's work and insights: 

Join Heather Osgood as she sits down with Joe Cilio, CEO and Co-Founder of Forever Dog Productions, to explore how the network has evolved over the past decade—most recently with a bold pivot into video podcasting. Joe takes us behind the curtain on the logistical and strategic challenges of adding video to an audio-first operation, the monetization opportunities (and limits) across YouTube and Spotify, and why visual storytelling matters now more than ever. He also dives into Forever Dog's innovative approach to talent development, including their groundbreaking work with drag icons through Moguls of Media. In this episode, we cover: What Forever Dog's transition to video really looked like behind the scenes The monetization model for video podcasts—CPMs, simulcasts, and platform payouts How Forever Dog approaches YouTube packaging, set design, and branding Building successful partnerships with creators What a ten-year-old podcast network is doing to stay fresh in 2025 Whether you're a podcast creator, advertiser, or strategist, this episode offers a smart, forward-thinking look at where the industry is headed.

Send us a textCPMs are the great equalizer of marketing media. To make great decisions, you need to know how to calculate them and when to use them.In this episode of the Maven Marketing Podcast, Brandon Welch and Caleb Agee break down one of the most misunderstood metrics in all of advertising: CPM, or Cost Per Thousand (impressions). The “M” is from the Latin word “Mille” meaning thousand. Marketers love to talk about targeting and impressions, but without understanding what CPM tells you, you might be overspending without realizing it.Learn how to calculate CPMs accurately, what counts as a good CPM across different platforms, and—most importantly—how to compare medias with each other.You'll learn:The real definition of CPM and how to use itWhy CPMs are crucial in Tomorrow MarketingAverage CPM benchmarks across digital, TV, streaming, and out-of-homeThe danger of random impressions and why repetition winsHow to ask the right questions when buying mediaIf you're running any kind of advertising campaign—this is the marketing math that can make or break your ROI.Subscribe for new episodes every Monday, and email us your marketing questions at MavenMonday@frankandmaven.comFREE MARKETING AUDIT: MavenMarketingAudit.comOur Website: https://frankandmaven.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/frankandmavenmarketing/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@frankandmavenTwitter: https://twitter.com/frankandmavenLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/frank-and-maven/Host: Brandon WelchCo-Host: Caleb AgeeExecutive Producer: Carter BreauxAudio/Video Producer: Nate the Camera GuyDo you have a marketing problem you'd like us to help solve? Send it to MavenMonday@FrankandMaven.com!Get a copy of our Best-Selling Book, The Maven Marketer Here: https://a.co/d/1clpm8a

Next in Media spoke to Marc McCollum. Chief Innovation Officer at Raptive, about how smaller publishers are enduring in the face of AI search, Google search changes, and the supposed death of cookies.

CTV ad revenue is projected to reach $28 billion this year, but 39% of advertisers still cite transparency in ad placements as a major concern. Is Connected TV delivering on its promises or falling short?This episode, Elena and Angela are joined by Chief Media Officer Catherine Walstad to discuss the state of CTV advertising. They explore the maturing optimism around streaming TV and share practical advice for navigating this complex but essential channel. Learn why CTV shouldn't be viewed as either brand or performance marketing, but as a powerful complement to linear TV.Topics covered: [01:00] CTV usage and ad spend projections through 2026[03:30] Current marketing sentiment around CTV advertising[06:00] Defining CTV, OTT, and streaming terminology[09:00] Is CTV delivering on its ROI promises?[11:00] CTV's role in both brand and performance marketing[18:00] Why CTV advertising has high CPMs and hidden costs[21:00] CTV measurement challenges and solutions[27:00] How fragmentation impacts advertisers and viewers[29:30] Emerging CTV trends like shoppable and interactive ads  To learn more, visit marketingarchitects.com/podcast or subscribe to our newsletter at marketingarchitects.com/newsletter.  Resources: 2025 eMarketer Article: https://www.emarketer.com/content/5-things-know-about-ctv-advertising-platforms2025 Ad Exchanger Article: https://www.adexchanger.com/tv/buyers-say-ctvs-transparency-problem-remains-a-roadblock-to-investment/ Get more research-backed marketing strategies by subscribing to The Marketing Architects on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Show Notes: How Micro-Influencers Can 10x Your eCommerce Growth with Jay NeyerIn this episode of The eCommerce Podcast, Matt Edmundson talks with Jay Neyer from Lantern Soul about leveraging micro-influencers to dramatically improve advertising performance and scale eCommerce businesses from six to eight figures.Episode HighlightsThe Four Levers of eCommerce Profitability (09:28)CPMs - Cost to reach 1,000 peopleClick-through rate - Engagement with your contentConversion rate - Visitors who make a purchaseAverage order value - How much customers spendThe Micro-Influencer Advantage (20:00)Why accounts with just 1,000-2,000 followers often outperform celebrity influencersHow to identify the right micro-influencers for your brandCreating win-win-win partnerships that benefit everyone involvedInfluencer Whitelisting Strategies for 2025 (22:28)The technical process of running ads through influencer accountsWhy whitelisted content performs better 95% of the timeSetting up partnerships that deliver value to all partiesLanding Page Continuity Technique (32:49)Creating dedicated landing pages featuring the influencerThe "five tips" structure that converts visitors into customersHow to maintain trust throughout the entire customer journeyThe Shift to Broader Targeting (36:12)Why hyper-specific audience targeting no longer works as wellHow Meta's algorithms have evolved to find customers in broader poolsTips for lowering your CPMs while maintaining quality trafficAbout Jay NeyerJay Neyer is a modern Renaissance man—a philosopher, musician, and multilingual mastermind. Beyond his creative pursuits, he's a powerhouse in e-commerce, having generated over 100 million in sales and developed over 500 websites and apps. As a featured speaker for Shopify and Amazon, Jay blends big-picture thinking with technical expertise to turn six-figure brands into eight-figure success stories.Resources MentionedLantern Soul: lanternsol.comConnect with Jay on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jayneyerConnect With UsSubscribe to our newsletter: ecommercepodcast.netFollow Matt on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mattedmundsonJoin our community: ecommercepodcast.netThe eCommerce Podcast brings you real talk about building successful online stores. Every Thursday, we speak with experts and founders who've been in the trenches, built the stores, and learned the hard way—so you don't have to.#MicroInfluencers #eCommerceGrowth #InfluencerWhitelisting #ConversionRateOptimization #PerformanceMarketing

In this episode of TellyCast, host Justin Crosby sits down with Victor Potrol, SVP of Partnerships & Creator Services at TheSoul Publishing, one of the biggest players in digital-first content. With billions of views across YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, TheSoul Publishing has mastered audience engagement at scale.Victor shares insights into the company's growth strategy, platform adaptability, and monetisation in an evolving digital ecosystem. They discuss the impact of AI on content creation, the importance of localisation, and how TheSoul Publishing maintains a competitive edge. Plus, with CPMs fluctuating, how is the company navigating the financial side of digital media?Victor also shares his Story of the Week and picks his Hero of the Week and Who's in the Bin!Sign up for The Drop newsletterSupport the showSubscribe to the TellyCast YouTube channel for exclusive TV industry videosFollow us on LinkedInConnect with Justin on LinkedINTellyCast videos on YouTubeTellyCast websiteTellyCast instaTellyCast TwitterTellyCast TikTok

In this episode, we talk about the big mistake many brands make when planning and measuring their ads. Our guest, Chelsey, explains why you can't measure awareness, consideration, and conversions the same way. She breaks it down simply: Awareness ads should be measured by how many people see them (reach, impressions, CPMs). Conversion ads should be measured by results (sales, revenue, ROAS). Chelsey also talks about how brands can estimate the impact of awareness ads on conversions using smart data models. Plus, she shares tools like GA4 and media mix modeling (MMM) that help brands understand which ads are working best. Tune in to learn how to fix your media planning and get better results from your campaigns!

What does it take to go from 100 followers to running a thriving SaaS company and revolutionizing creator-driven marketing?In this powerful episode of the Jared Goetz Podcast, Alex Heiden, founder of Paid, shares his incredible journey from building no-code apps to scaling multi-million-dollar software platforms. From accidentally going viral to launching a business that connects creators and brands on a performance-only basis, Alex's story is a masterclass in innovation, adaptability, and long-term thinking.In this episode, Jared Goetz and Alex discuss:✅ How Alex went from 100 to 100K followers in just 95 days✅ The rise of no-code platforms and how they're transforming entrepreneurship✅ Why performance-based creator marketing is the future of advertising✅ Building a business without technical skills or massive startup capital✅ How to stay authentic while scaling your brand and influenceTimestamps:00:00 – Introduction: Who is Alex Heiden?06:30 – From 100 followers to 100K in 95 days12:45 – The moment that changed everything: Going viral by accident18:20 – Building his first no-code app with zero tech background25:15 – The future of creator marketing and why CPMs are dropping36:40 – Why SaaS is the real path to long-term wealth45:20 – Staying authentic while building a business52:10 – The mindset shifts that lead to sustainable success1:05:30 – Final thoughts: Creating impact in a rapidly changing worldIf you're an entrepreneur, creator, or someone curious about how tech is reshaping business, this episode will give you the blueprint for leveraging the digital economy to your advantage.

In this episode, Alex Heiden, co-founder of Get Payd, dives deep into the powerful world of marketing arbitrage and how brands can leverage short-form content to generate millions of views at a fraction of traditional advertising costs. With the rise of platforms like TikTok and Instagram Reels, Alex explains how brands can exploit the current "TikTokification" of content to build top-of-funnel awareness for B2B, prosumer, and consumer products alike.He shares detailed strategies on running performance-based creator campaigns, optimizing CPMs (as low as $1 vs. $9 on traditional platforms), and structuring competitions that incentivize high-performing content creators. Plus, Alex breaks down how brands can identify top creators for long-term partnerships and generate viral content that attracts organic replication from other creators.Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction to marketing arbitrage & today's topic03:42 - What is Get Paid? Bringing TikTok Shop strategies to digital businesses05:19 - How TikTok's creator commission model works06:12 - Two campaign models: CPM deals vs. competitions10:44 - Results: Cost-effective campaigns with $1–$3 CPM14:14 - Case studies: Viral success with day-in-the-life content17:00 - The shift from outbound to inbound marketing22:54 - Why the "For You" page changes everything for discovery28:08 - Scaling: From $5K test budgets to $50K monthly spends35:22 - The ripple effect of viral content and organic replication42:25 - How Get Paid incentivizes creators and brands alikeKey Points:Marketing Arbitrage Explained: How to get $1 CPMs vs. $9 on traditional ad platformsShort-Form Content Strategy: Run competitions and pay-per-view campaigns to maximize exposureCreator Incentives: Structuring payouts for maximum engagement and competitive motivationOrganic Growth Tactics: How viral videos lead to a snowball effect with unpaid content replicationB2B & B2C Impact: Why short-form content isn't just for consumer brandsNotable Quotes:"The only way to grow products quickly is by finding and exploiting marketing arbitrage." – Alex"Discovery isn't about followers anymore—it's about creating good content that the algorithm wants to show." – HostKey Takeaways for Founders:Shift ad budgets from traditional channels to short-form creator campaigns for massive reach at lower costs.Run competitive campaigns to organically motivate creators to produce viral content.Focus on specific features or outcomes in your short-form content for maximum clarity and effectiveness.Sponsors:TalentFiber.com – Hire the best offshore marketing talent.Connect with Alex:Instagram: @nocode.alexTwitter/X: https://x.com/alexh459 Platform: https://www.getpaydapp.com/Ready to scale your marketing with short-form content? This episode is a masterclass in how to do it right.

On the podcast, I talk with Ashley about what makes Google App campaigns a powerful growth tool, proven optimization strategies, and how lower CPMs aren't always the win they seem to be.Top Takeaways:

“Labor is supposed to happen naturally. It's not this big medical intervention that occasionally happens naturally. It's this natural process that occasionally needs medical intervention.”Paige Boran is a certified nurse-midwife from Fort Collins, Colorado. She and her colleague, Jess, practice independently at A Woman's Place. They have rights to deliver babies at the hospital but are not employed through the hospital system so they are not subject to physician oversight. Their patients benefit from a low-intervention environment within a hospital setting but without the restriction of hospital policies.Lily Wyn, our Content Creator and Social Media Admin, joins us today as well! Lily shares why she chose Paige to support her through her current VBAC pregnancy. Lily is a beautiful example of how to diligently interview providers, keep an open mind, process past fears with the provider you choose, and what developing a relationship looks like to create an empowering birthing experience. Paige shows us just how valuable midwifery care can be, especially when going for a VBAC. If you're looking for a truly VBAC-supportive provider, this is a great episode on how to do it! The VBAC Link's VBAC Supportive Provider ListA Woman's PlaceHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Paige: Yeah, so I'm a certified nurse-midwife. I work in northern Colorado in Fort Collins at A Woman's Place. We're a small midwifery-owned practice. Right now, there are just two CNMs. That's the whole practice. It's just me and my colleague, Jess, who owns it which is really cool because we get to push the boundaries because we are not really locked into the hospital system. We are able to catch babies there but we are not actually employed through the bigger hospital systems which is nice because we don't have that physician oversight and stuff like that. I think we are able to do a lot more and honor that midwifery care model which is really cool. Sometimes people feel locked into policies and their overseeing physician and things like that but when it's just two midwives, we get to do what we want and what feels best for the patient. I really like that. That was a big thing when I first got into the certified nurse midwifery world. I was like, where do I want to work? I had offers from bigger hospital systems and it just didn't feel like the right fit so working at a small, privately-owned practice felt like the right answer for me so I was able to practice in a way I felt was right for people. I didn't want to be locked in by a policy and overseeing physicians. I just wanted to grow with other midwives. Meagan: Yes. I love that so much. I don't know. Maybe I should say I know it feels to me– I don't know it as an actual fact, but that feels like a unique situation and a unique setup to me. We don't really have that that I know of here in Utah. We either have out-of-hospital CPMs or we have in-hospital CNMs who are just hospital. I know that one hospital system is trying to do the attached birth center, but it is still very different. They are still the hospital umbrella midwives I guess I could say. So is that unique or is that just something that feels like it?Paige: I think it's unique because where I came from in Florida, if you were a CNM, you 100% practiced in the hospital which we do but it was that you were owned by a larger group of physicians essentially. Florida was working towards independent practice when I was there. Colorado is an independent-practiced state for nurse practitioners which is really cool because we don't have to have that oversight. I don't know if Florida ever got there but I know it varies state to state on if you have to be overseen by a physician or not. Honestly, that's why a lot of people when they are ready to become a midwife, if they don't have independent practice rights as a CNM even if they are a nurse, they will go for a CPM which is a certified professional midwife because they actually have more autonomy to do what they want outside of the hospital because they are not bound by all of the laws and stipulations which is interesting. Meagan: Exactly. I think that's a big thing– the CPM/CNM thing when people are looking for midwives. Do you have any suggestions about CPM versus CNM? If a VBAC mom is looking at a CPM, is that a safe and reasonable option?Paige: Absolutely. Yes. I think CPMs and CNMs are both reasonable, safe options. They both have training in that. They both can honor your holistic journey. I would say the biggest thing is who you feel most connected to because I think trusting your team, you will have people who have the worst birthing outcome and horrible stories but they are like, “I look back and I feel so good about it because I trusted my team.” I think that is what's important. If a CPM seems like your person and that's who you are going to trust, then that's who you should go for whereas a CNM, if that seems like that's your person and who you trust, I think that would be a good route too. I think a lot of people think, “Oh, they do home births. They must catch babies in a barn and there is no regulation. Even sometimes when I say, “midwife,” people are like, “What? Do you dress like a nun and catch babies in a barn?”Meagan: Yes, this is real though. These are real thoughts. If you are listening, and not to make fun of you if you think this, this is a real thing. This is a myth surrounding midwifery care, especially out-of-hospital midwives where a lot of people think a lot of different things. Paige: Absolutely. Meagan: I think I had a chicken chaser or something where a dad was like, “Do you chase chickens?” I was like, “What?” He said, “Well, that's what the midwives do so that's what the doulas do.” I'm like, “What? No, we don't chase chickens.” Paige: That is such old-school thinking but realistically, midwives started in the home and that was their history. It's cool that they've been able to step into the hospital and bring some of that back into the hospital because I think that is needed. Meagan: It is needed, yeah. Paige: We are starting to see that physicians are starting to be a little bit more holistic and see things in the whole picture, but I'm glad that the midwives did step into the hospital because I think that needed to be there but I'm so glad that people are still doing it at home because I think that is such a good option for people. Meagan: Yeah, so talking abou the midwives in the hospital, a lot of people are talking about how they are overseen by OBs. Is this common? Does this happen where you are at? You kind of said you are separated but do the hospital midwives in your area or in most areas, are they always overseen by OBs? Paige: Not necessarily. It would vary state to state and hospital to hospital. We actually just got privileges and admitting privileges a couple of years ago. Actually, my boss, Jess, who owns the practice where I work, had worked in Denver where they were allowed to admit their patients and everything. They didn't have to have any physician oversight but when she was there, she had to have physician oversight. She was like, “It's an hour drive north, why would that make a difference?” It was the same hospital system so she fought when she bought the practice and the physician who owned it prior left, she was alone and she had to have that physician oversight so she fought for independent practice privileges and she got it. Some of the midwives at first weren't so happy about it because they had liked being overseen by the doctor and someone signing off on all of their things. Some of the midwives were like, “Finally. We should be able to practice independently.” It's going to vary at each place. But I think that's a good thing to ask, “If something is going wrong, will a physician just come unannounced into my room in the hospital?” That's not the case with ours. We have to invite them in and if we are inviting them in, we've probably had a conversation multiple times with the patient where it's like, we need to have this. Meagan: Yeah. For the patients who do have the oversight of the OBs, do you have any suggestions? I feel like sometimes, at least here in Utah with my own doula clients when we have that situation, it can get a little confusing and hard when we've got an OB over here saying one thing but then we've got a midwife saying another. For instance with a VBAC candidate, “Oh, you really have a lower chance of having a VBAC. I'll support it. I'll sign off, but you have a really low chance,” but then the midwife is like, “Don't worry about that. You actually have a great chance. It is totally possible.” It gets confusing. Paige: Yeah, and it's like, who do you trust in that scenario? I think that's where evidence comes in because I think midwives and physicians both practice evidence-based but some people may have newer evidence than others. I've worked with OBs who probably roll over in their grave when I say certain things because it wasn't the old way but it is the new way. If somebody can come in with their own evidence and they're like, “I've looked into this and I think I'm a good candidate for x, y, and z,” I think physicians respond well to that because they are like, “Okay, they've done their research. Maybe I need to do some research.” Meagan: Yeah. Paige: When they have that thought, they know that this is an educated person and I can't just say whatever I want and they're going to take my word as the Holy Bible. Meagan: Yeah. No, really. Exactly. It always comes down to education and the more information we can have in our toolbelt or in our toolbox or whatever it may be, it's powerful so I love that you point that out. I think it's also important to note that if you do have two providers saying different things, that it's okay to ask for that evidence. “Hey, you had mentioned this. Can you tell me where you got that from or why you are saying that?” Then you can discuss that with your other provider. Paige: Yeah, and following intuition too. I think you can have all of the evidence in the world. What is your gut telling you too? Who do you trust more and what feels right in your body in the moment? I think we are all experts of our own bodies and there's a lot that goes into a VBAC and stuff like that. It's more than just the evidence. People have to feel mentally and physically ready for it too. I wish more people focused sometimes on the mental and spiritual aspect of it because I think a lot of people get ready physically but maybe mentally they weren't prepared for the emotional switch there. Meagan: Totally. Thinking about that, Paige, I mean Lily, tell us a little bit about why you went the midwifery route. I know you really wanted to find the right provider. Lily: Yeah. So I think for me, I have always been drawn to midwifery care. I was a little bit of a birth nerd prior to even working for The VBAC Link or even having my own kiddos. Prior to my son, we had a miscarriage and an ectopic pregnancy so I experienced OB care with my ectopic. I was bounced around a lot in a practice and had OBs who were great and equally some OBs where it was such a rushed visit that I had an OB miss an infection in my incisions because my pain was dismissed and just some really tough stuff. When it came to getting our rainbow rainbow baby, I was like, I really don't want to be in a hospital at all. I want midwives. That's the route that we went. The very brief story of my son is that he flipped breech 44 hours into labor and that's when we legally had to transfer to the hospital and I had my Cesarean. So in planning my VBAC, I planned to go back to the birth center and was a little devastated when it was out of our financial means this time. I was so panicked. I remember texting you, Meagan, and being like, “What do I do? I can't be at the birth center anymore and I don't want to be in a hospital.” We interviewed another birth center that's about an hour away that is in network with our insurance and talk about trusting your gut, it just didn't feel right. It didn't feel warm and fuzzy. Those are the feelings I got with our first birth center. I loved them so much and I still do. Then I met with Paige and her practice partner, Jess, and I came in loaded to the teeth. I was prepared to fight with someone because that's what I had in my brain and that's what I expected. I sat down with them. They met me after hours after clinic. I sat down with my three pages of questions and by the way, if you are listening and you have questions, we have a great blog on it and some social media posts of the questions that I specifically used. We talked for over an hour and every question I asked, they just had the ultimate answer to. I felt so at peace after talking with both of them and I remember telling my husband going into it, “I'm really worried that I'm going to like these people because I don't want to deliver at a hospital and then I'm going to have to choose a far away birth center that is out-of-hospital or providers that I like but it's a hospital.” It just feels like everything has been serendipitous for us. Our hospital opened a low-intervention portion of their birth floor so I'll still get to have the birth tub and all of the things, but truly have just been blow away by Paige and have just buddied up. She's dealt with all of my anxiety in pregnancy and VBAC and all of my questions. It just feels like such holistic care compared to my experience with OBs in the past. Meagan: That is so amazing and I was actually going to ask how has your care been during this pregnancy? It sounds like it's just been absolutely incredible and exactly what you needed. I remember you texting me and feeling that, oh crap. I don't know what to do. What do I do? You know? I just think it's so great that you have found Paige. Did you say that Jess is your partner? Paige: Yes. Meagan: Jess, yeah. I'm so glad that you found them because it really does sound like you are exactly where you need to be. Lily: Yeah. It made a huge difference for me and I just tell Paige all the time I truly didn't know that care in a hospital setting could look the way that it does. I feel like I'm getting– I experienced birth center care. I had an out-of-hospital experience until we transferred and I can say with confidence that my care has been the same if not better with Paige and just having the conversations and the good stuff and feeling really safe and confident. One thing that they pointed out that I thought was great when I went in and asked all of my questions is that Jess looked at me and she was like, “Okay, it sounds like you have a lot of anxiety around hospital transfer.” And I did. With my son, that was my worst fear and it came true. I had a lot of anxious, what if I have to transfer? She was like, “The thing is there is no transferring. We can induce you if you need to be induced and we can come with you into the OR with your Cesarean if that ever happened to be another thing.” For me, that brought a lot of peace to know that no matter what, the provider that I know and feel comfortable with is going to be with me. I again, didn't expect to feel that way, but it's been a really great reassurance for me personally. Meagan: Yeah. It's the same with a doula. Knowing that there's someone in your corner that you know who you've established care with who can follow you to your birth with you in your journey is just so comforting. So Paige, I wanted to talk about midwifery care and also just lowering the chance of Cesarean. Sometimes people do choose midwifery care specifically because they are like, “I think I have a lower chance of a Cesarean if I go the midwifery route.” Can we talk to that a little bit?Paige: Yes, that's true. A lot of people know that there are benefits to midwives but I think when people think of midwives, it's just like, “Oh, it's just a better experience. I trust my team more.” That's definitely there. There have been studies and people felt more at peace and empowered through their birthing journeys with midwives than they did with OBs. It's been studied but there is also a decrease in C-section risk. Your C-section risk drops 30-40% when you have a midwife which I think is a pretty significant drop. Meagan: Yeah. Paige: Yeah, especially when we look at the United States at our birthing outcomes and birthing mortality and C-section rates, it is way too high for as developed of a country as we are. I think that's really where midwifery care is stepping in and starting to help lower those rates to get it down to where it should be. The World Health Organization has been nominating and promoting midwifery care because it really is the answer to how we get these C-section rates lowered and these bad outcomes lowered. Midwives also have lower chance of an operative vaginal birth. That would be with forceps or a vacuum or an episiotomy so lower chances of those things as well. Lower chance of preterm birth which is interesting and probably because one, we do take lower-risk people. I think that's true but also because we are looking at it holistically. We are looking at everything. We are not just looking at you as a sick person. A lot of people look at pregnancy as an illness and pregnancy is not an illness. It's just a natural part of life and we've got to look at the whole picture of life if we're just going to look at the one thing too. I think that helps to reduce preterm birth risk. We also have lower interventions just overall. We're more in tune with people's bodies and we want to honor what their bodies are meant to do. Labor is supposed to happen naturally. It's not this big medical intervention that occasionally happens naturally. It's this natural process that occasionally needs medical intervention. The midwifery model is so important. I think when you go to the traditional medical model, you look at the present illness so they see pregnancy as an illness. What can go wrong? Don't get me wrong. There are a sleu of things that can go wrong in pregnancy and you do have to watch for them. But I think with midwifery care, you know when to use your hands but you also know when to sit on them. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. I feel like we need– we used to get quotes from our podcast episodes and turn them into t-shirts and I feel like that is a t-shirt podcast quote-worthy. Oh my gosh. It's a worthy quote. That is amazing and it's so true though. Paige: It is. Meagan: It's not to rag on OBs. You guys, OBs are amazing. They are wonderful. They do an amazing job. We love the. But there is something different with midwifery care. You mentioned preterm birth. I remember when I was going through my interview process to have my VBAC after two C-section baby and I finally established care mid-pregnancy because I switched. That was one of the things in the very beginning that my midwife was like, “Let's talk about things. Let's talk about nutrition. Let's talk about supplements. Let's talk about where you are at.” It was just honing in on that which I was surprised by because I figured she'd be like, “Let's talk about your history. Let's talk about this,” but it was like, “No. Let's talk about what we can do to make sure you have the healthiest pregnancy,” but also started commentingo n mental stuff. It helped me get healthy in my mind. I just would never have had that experience with OB where they wanted to learn what I was scared about and what I was feeling and all of those things. Not only was I learning how to nourish myself physically, but mentally and it was just a really big deal. I do feel like it played a big impact in my labor. Paige: Yeah. A lot of people discredit how much nutrition and debunking fears and stuff like that can go because I think a lot of that– I mean, we look at nutrition-wise and we could avoid almost all of preeclampsia with nutrition alone which is incredible. I'm like, “I really think you should read Real Food for Pregnancy and people are like, “Oh, but it's such a big book,” and I'm like, “But it's so important to know this information about what we should be putting in our bodies.” 100 grams of protein– you've already got it. Meagan: I want to see how many pages for it. It's got, okay. We've got 300 pages but it has recipes and all of these amazing things in the end so it's not even a full book. Paige: Yes. People are like, “Oh man, I don't know if I want to read the whole thing,” but I'm like, “It's so important.” I think when people do read it, they come back and are like, “Did you know that I could decrease my risk of this if I ate more Vitamin A?” I'm like, “Yes. That's why I wanted you to read this book.” It is a wealth of information and I have such healthier pregnancy outcomes when people follow that high protein diet and looking at micronutrients with their Vitamin A, their choline, and all sorts of things. Meagan: Yeah. All of the things that we talk about a lot here on the podcast because we are partnered with Needed and we love them so much because we talk about the choline and the Vitamin A and the Vitamin B's and the Vitamin D's. Lily Nichols, not this Lily on the podcast today, she also wrote Real Food for Gestational Diabetes and that's another really powerful book as well. But yeah. It's just hard because OBs don't tend to have the time. I think some OBs would actually love the time to sit down and dig deep into this but they don't have the time either. I do think that's a big difference between OBs and midwives. What does your standard prenatal look like? When a mom comes in, a patient comes in, what do you guys do through a visit? Paige: Yeah. We follow the standard what everywhere in America does like once a month roughly in the first trimester and second trimester then when you hit 28 weeks, every 2 weeks, and then when you hit 36 weeks, every week. If you go to 41, we'll see you twice in that week. We follow those stipulations but our appointments are a little bit longer. When you are in a big practice, a lot of time it's driven by RVU use so the more patients somebody can see, the more they are going to get paid and the bigger their bonus is at the end of year. A lot of people feel like they are running through the cattle herd and they've been in and out in 15 minutes if that. At my practice, it's a little bit different because we are not RVU based. We're not getting any bonus. We're not trying to see as many patients as we can. Will we ever be the richest at what we do? No, but that's okay with me and Jess. We are small on purpose and we love to take the time. At Lily's appointments, we always book her for at least 30 minutes because we know that me and her like to talk. We've done an hour for some people because we know there is always going to be that long conversation. Don't get me wrong though, that fourth mom whose had three vaginal births and going for her fourth, she may be like, “Paige, there's really nothing to talk about today and that's okay.” Sometimes they are 15 minutes. Sometimes they are 30. Sometimes they are an hour. Our first appointment is always an hour because there is just so much to dive into with how we can be preparing ourselves, what does your history look like especially if they are brand new to our practice and we've never met them before, starting to build that relationship early on. It just depends on how far along they are, who the person is, and those things. But I do like that I can spend as much time as I need. Sometimes I tell my people, “Bring a book because I tend to get behind because I tend to talk to people longer than I book for,” but that's okay. We know that we can do that because we are a smaller practice. I think when people are thinking about what kind of care they want, they should probably consider how are these people paid? Is it by how many they can see in a day? Because you're probably going to get a different level of care than a practice that isn't drive by those RVUs. Yeah, that's a really good point. I feel like my shortest visit with my midwife was 20 minutes. Paige: Yeah. Lily: Yeah. Meagan: Which to me is pretty dang long because when I was going with my other two daughters, I think it was probably 6-7 minutes if that with my provider. I mean, it was get in. My nurse would check my fundal height and all of that and then oh, the doctor will be in here. Then came in, quick out. Yeah. It is really, really different. Lily: I know for me too, I love that we don't just talk about nutrition and things like that but even in my last appointment, I was talking with Paige about the things that can be triggering coming back into labor and going back into a hospital so my ectopic pregnancy was at the hospital that I'll be delivering at and I had to go into the emergency room and the way that you go to labor and delivery after hours is through the ER so Paige and I were talking. She was like, “I can just meet you outside. We will badge you in and we will avoid the emergency room if that feels triggering.” It's just those things that you don't get with an OB necessarily to talk through tiny little triggers. They are probably generally less accommodating to those little things of, “Well that's just the standard. You're going to have to get over that and just go through the ED and come on up.” I think that's been huge. I also have a dear friend who is going to school to be an OB. I told Paige at my last appointment that she may possibly be at my birth. She's my crunchy friend so she'll be a great OB but I have such a desire to be like, “Come see a VBAC. Come see it so that you have it in your brain and you know that they can be safe and look at what can be done,” so I think that is so huge too as we continue to train and uplift our next generation of providers. What does that look like to show them? I think her internship or something is going to be a midwife and OB partnership practice which is really cool but I'm like, “Yes. Come. Come to my birth. Please. I want you to see all the things.” That's really cool too and that Paige is open to, “My friend might be there.” Meagan: Yeah. Paige: Bring whoever. Meagan: I love that. I love that you were pointing out too this next generation of providers. Let's see that birth and VBAC is actually very normal and very possible because there's a lot of people who have maybe seen trauma or an unfortunate situation which could have happened because we blasted them with interventions or could have happened out of a fluke thing. You don't know all of the time. But I do think if we can keep trying to get these providers, these new provider to see a different light, we will also see that Cesarean rate drop a little bit. We really, I always tell people that we have a problem. They're like, “It's really not that big of a deal.” I'm like, “No, it's a very big deal. It's a very, very big deal. We have a problem in this medical world.” I do believe that it needs to change and midwifery care is definitely going to impact that. I hope that what you were saying in the beginning how policies don't trump a lot of the midwives. I wanted to ask you. This isn't something we talked about, but is it possible to ask your midwife, “Hey, what policies do you lie under?” Is that appropriate? Paige: Yes. Actually, that was one of my favorite things when Lily came in to meet and greet us. She came and she was like, “What are the policies for a VBAC?” We dove into that. We've been diving into that and what are we going to be okay with and what are we not going to be okay with? That's the beauty is that I'm not employed by the larger hospital system that I work under so I feel like a policy is not a law. I feel like there is informed consent and I think informed consent is so important but at the same time, there is informed declination and you should be able to decline anything. That's true. We can never force anybody into surgery. We can never force anybody into anything. I think a lot of people aren't having those conversations where it's actually informed so then people are like, “Oh, they are just refusing everything.” I hate the word refuse because no, they are not refusing it. They are declining it because they are informed. They know the risk. They have all the information at their fingertips and they know that this is the best decision for them and their baby and we have to honor that. That's why I'm really glad that I'm able to practice in that way, but I do know I've met and I've worked with people who feel like they are boxed in and have to follow those policies. We've started to talk about what our policies are with TOLACs and VBACs and things like that. One of them is that they are supposed to have two IVs. I've already gone against that before and I've had a beautiful, unmedicated VBAC. She walked in. I said, “We've talked about it. She was also laboring outside when we talked about it. It's not an issue when you come in. You know what? When we get up there, I'm just going to tell them that you know why they recommend two IVs and you are declining.” She walks in and she's clearly going to have this baby within the hour. I told the nurse, “We're not doing the IVs. We've talked about it. We're going to decline them.” That was the end of the discussion. We didn't have to talk about it again which was nice. She shouldn't have had to advocate in that moment for herself. We've already had those conversations. Meagan: Yes. Paige: Another one is continuous monitoring and the whole idea is if you start to rupture, that's how we are going to catch it. The baby is going to tank and that's how we are going to save the baby's life. Don't get me wrong. I think continuous monitoring can be really valuable for a lot of things but it's actually not evidence-based. We have not improved neonatal outcomes with continuous fetal monitoring. We've talked about that with Lily and she's going to opt for intermittent oscillation and I think that's very appropriate because she plans to go unmedicated. Let's be honest, if you are unmedicated and your uterus starts to rupture, moms will tell me that something is not right. This is beyond labor. Her saying that and being aware of that, we would notice it a lot sooner than we would the baby tanking kind of thing. Meagan: Yeah. I do know that with uterine rupture, we can have decelerations but like you were saying, there's usually so many other signs before baby is actually even struggling and I know a couple of uterine rupture stories where providers didn't believe the mom that something was going on because that one thing wasn't happening. The baby wasn't struggling. Paige: Yes. Meagan: It's like, you guys! When it comes to continuous fetal monitoring in the hospital, people have to fight to have that intermittent. It's yeah. Anyway. These policies are not law. I love that you said that too. There's another t-shirt quote. Paige: I think people should start asking if they are planning a VBAC, start asking what is the policy and start thinking, is that what they want? I do have some moms who are like, “No, I want the two IVs because it's hard for me to get a stick,” and they need that backup in case. That makes them feel more at peace but other people are like, “It makes me feel like a patient. I don't like it.” People don't like needles and that's okay. They have that right to say no. I tell people that in a true emergency, we will get an IV in you if something really, really bad were to be happening. That's part of training if somebody walks in off the street. We're not going to be like, “Oh, when was the last time you ate? Sorry, you can't have the surgery.” We know something bad is happening right now. We will get the IVs. We will do all of the things. Getting the IVs really won't save as much time as people think it will. Meagan: Yeah, and there are other things. Say we are having our baby and we are having higher blood loss than we would like or we have some concern of some hemorrhaging, there are other things that we can do. We can put Pitocin in a leg. We can do Cytotec rectally. There are things that we can do. We can get that baby to our breast and start stimulating and try to help that way. There are things that we can do while we are waiting for an IV, right? Paige: Yes. I tell people that all the time. Most of the postpartum hemorrhage meds that we use can be given without an IV. There is only one that truly has to be given through an IV and that's TXA but the rest can all be given other routes. A lot of times, those work better than IV Pitocin. Sometimes the ion Pitocin works better. Sometimes the ion Methergine works better. It's not this, oh we have to have a little just in case kind of thing because if there was a just in case moment, yes. We can be working on the IV and doing other things. I have to be kind of secretive about it. I have tinctures and stuff with shepherd's purse and yarrow. Those things actually have great evidence. They are really helpful for postpartum blood loss. I have a lot of moms who are more interested in doing something more holistic and natural before they try medication. Cypress essential oil, you can rub that in. I'll have doulas use my cypress roller and give them a massage while I'm trying to manage the hemorrhage and that cypress oil can help a lot too. Sometimes going back to our instinctual, old medicine that we have been using well before medicine was used for birth. Meagan: Yeah. This is a random question for both of you. Lil, I really wonder if you have seen it or heard about this too because you are so heavily in our DMs. This is going to be weird. People are going to be like, what? But I did this. We did this because we weren't sure. We cut the umbilical cord and put it in our mouth. It's really weird. Paige is like, what? You put it down in the gum area like in between your teeth and your cheek. It sits there. Okay, you guys. I've seen it just a couple of times, myself included. Yes, I put my umbilical cord in my mouth. Yes, it's weird. Paige: That's okay. Meagan: It felt like a little gummy. It was fine. I wasn't chewing on it. It was just sitting there. But anyway, it's weird but with my other client too we did it and all of her hemorrhaging symptoms just went away. Paige: That's cool. Meagan: I know this is really random but we just cut a little piece of our umbilical cord and put it in their mouth. Paige: That's so interesting. So a piece of the umbilical cord or the entire thing once it's clamped and cut and still attached? Meagan: They clamped and cut it, cut a piece, and put it in my mouth. Paige: I would be so willing to try that. I mean, what is there in that nun? Meagan: I don't know. I don't know, but it did diminish the hemorrhaging symptoms. Paige: Cool. Meagan: So very interesting, right? Okay, so are midwives restricted when it comes to VBAC on what they can accept? Lily, you are a VBAC. I was a VBAC after two C-sections. You can obviously take Lily. Could you accept me?Paige: Yes. Luckily in midwifery care, at least in Colorado, there is a lot of gray for certified nurse midwives. It's not always black and white. VBACs are okay but there is no direct, “Oh, if you have this many C-sections, we can't do it.” I think that's because ACOG also strangely doesn't have an opinion on that. They actually agree. There is limited evidence beyond one C-section. My practice has done several VBACs after two Cesareans. I don't think we've ever done one for a third or greater than two probably because I think those people a lot of times don't even consider VBAC and they just already have been seeing their doctor for their repeat C-section with each pregnancy. But I'd love to see more people going for a VBAC after multiple Cesareans because I think VBACs after two Cesareans have a whole different level of feeling empowered after that. I thin that's really cool and even special scars and stuff, there is really limited evidence on all of these things and I'd like to see more people pushing the limits a little bit. Especially since I am in a hospital, I do have an OB hospitalist on call 24/7 at the disposal of my fingertips if I need them. We are close to an OR so I think if for somebody the fear is there and they are like, “I just don't know if it's more risky because of this,” I think it's worth it to try because the more people who go for it and are successful, the better evidence we're going to get from it. Meagan: Yeah. That is exactly what I am thinking. There's not a lot of evidence after two Cesareans because it's just not happening. It hasn't really been studied and a lot of that is because people aren't even given the option. Paige: Yeah. I'll have people where it is their third or fourth C-section and they were never even given that option. They were told, “Oh, I was told I have CPD.” I'm like, “The chances of you actually having CPD are low.” Then you look at their records and it was fetal distress or something like that. Yeah. CPD is so rare. I've heard it so many times. “Baby is never going to come out of that pelvis ever.” That breaks my heart every time I hear it because there are times when I'm like, I don't know and then an 8-pound baby comes out. We can't go off of those things because the body does what it's supposed to in those moments. Don't get me wrong. Things do go wrong and C-sections do happen sometimes but yeah. To hear everybody has CPD just because they've had three C-sections, I'm like, I don't know. That would be quite a few people. Way more than we know are true. Meagan: Yeah. We're all walking around with tiny pelvises. That's just what everyone thinks anyway.Lily, being in our DMs, hearing the podcast, understanding and seeing so many of these people and what they say, do you have any advice for them when they are looking for their provider or just any advice in general? Do you have any advice from a VBAC-prepping mom? Lily: Yeah, I think for me, it is to go into it open-handed. I think we hear so many horror stories about providers often and I think that's why I went into looking for a provider with both fists up ready to fight and what has surprised me the most is just I think I said earlier that I didn't know hospital care could look like this. I remember we even posted something and I had posted on The VBAC Link that a hospital birth can be equally as beautiful as an out-of-hospital birth and there were people arguing and people saying, “No, absolutely that's not possible. That's not a thing.” Gosh, how discouraging if we go into things thinking that we can't have beautiful outcomes in different settings. Certainly, there are areas around our country that need improvement. There's not a low-intervention floor at every hospital and there are not midwives who are doing what Paige is doing everywhere but I think the more that we seek out that care and look for that care and advocate for that care, the more we will see it. As much as it sucks that we have to be our advocates, it's also a really cool opportunity that we pave the way for VBAC moms and the moms who have never had a C-section that we are paving the way for care that doesn't end up in a Cesarean. I would just say to be open-handed and yes. You can be prepared to fight and you can be prepared with your statistics. Be prepared to ask the why behind questions, but ultimately, I think that care can be so much more than we expected if we go into it thinking, Gosh, well what can I get out of this and how can I make these things happen? Like Paige said, we've had lots of conversations around, Well, this is the policy, but the policy is not the law. I'm here to support you in that. At our last appointment, she was like, “Hey, make sure you bring your doula to your appointment where we are going to talk about your birth plan because I want to make sure that she is there, that we all hear each other, that we are on the same page.” I think that's helpful too. And then having a doula. My doula was my doula with my C-section. She was with us. She was whoever was on call at the birth center actually and again, I think it was so serendipitous because she is a VBAC mom. I think I needed her then and I'm so stoked to have her now that she is just a really special human who I know is also always in my corner and constantly texting her like, “Oh my gosh, look at the new birth rooms. Oh my gosh, I had this great conversation. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.” I think having your doula there to be your partner in advocacy is really helpful too. Meagan: Yes. Okay, that's a good question too when it comes to doulas and midwives. Sometimes I think people think that if I'm hiring a midwife, I don't need a doula and then we of course know that a lot of people just mistake doulas and midwives together. But Paige, how do you feel about doula care and working with doula care? Is it necessary? How do you work together as doula and midwife?Paige: Yes. I love doulas. I wish everybody had access to a doula truly because doulas, just like midwives, have been studied and they have better birth outcomes, more empowered births, and all of the things. Doulas are so important and doulas and midwives work really closely. I think a doula is there with that constant presence, that constant helping with anything and a really good advocate which I think is important especially if you don't have a good relationship with your provider maybe or you don't know who you're going to get. Maybe you see 7 different providers and you get who you're going to get when you're in labor. So to have that doula there to constantly be advocating for you is such an important piece. Yeah, I really wish everybody could have access to a doula because it just makes a world of difference. I can't think of any bad outcomes I've ever had when a doula was present. It's just a different level of care. Usually, people who have sought out a doula have also taken the time to seek out and do all of the things that are going to make a healthier pregnancy and a better birthing outcome. It's why I think everybody deserves doula care. It's because it does lead to better outcomes. Midwives are always known to work closely with doulas and really support them. It's a team effort. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. We love our relationships with our midwives here. It's really great to just know how we work and know how we need to support the client and it is sometimes hard when we go to a hospital and we don't know who we are getting. And sometimes that OB or that midwife we have worked with before and sometimes it's a whole new face so it does bring us comfort to know that the client and the family know us and we know them and we can all work together. I love that. Okay, do either of you guys have anything else that you would like to say to our beautiful VBAC community before we go? Paige: I don't think so. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful and I just hope that everybody who is thinking about a VBAC really does their research and looks for the best provider and really finds that perfect fit because there are so many good providers out there– OBs, midwives, professional midwives, all the things. Meagan: I agree. It's okay to interview multiple people. It's also okay that if mid-pregnancy, the end of pregnancy, during, and even in labor that if something is not feeling right, you can request a different provider. You can go out and start interviewing again and find that provider that is right for you. Paige: Yes. Meagan: Well, thank you Paige and Lily for joining us today, and thank you so much for doing so much in your community. I really love your setup and hope that we can see that type of setup happening in the US because it just feels perfect in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yes. I'm loving it. Okay, ladies. Well, thank you so much. Paige: Thank you. Lily: Yeah, thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Bye. Lily: Bye!ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Happy National Midwifery Week!We are so thankful for and in awe of all midwives do. Great midwives can literally make all the difference. Statistical evidence shows that they can help you have both better birth experiences and outcomes.Meagan and Julie break down the different types of midwives including CNMs, CPM, DEMs, and LPM as well as the settings in which you can find them. They talk about the pros and cons of choosing midwifery care within a hospital or outside of a hospital either at home or in a birth center. We encourage you to interview all types of providers in all types of settings. You may be surprised where your intuition leads you and where you feel is the safest place for you to rock your birth!Midwifery-led Care in Low- and Middle-Income CountriesEvidence-Based Birth Article: The Evidence on MidwivesArticle: Planning a VBAC with Midwifery Care in AustraliaThe VBAC Link Supportive Provider ListNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, hey, hey. You guys, we're talking about midwives today, and when I say we, I mean me and Julie. I have Julie on with us today. Hello, my darling. Julie: Hello! You know, sometimes you've just got to unmute yourself. Meagan: Her headphones were muted, you guys. Julie: Yeah. That's amazing. Meagan: I'm like, “I can't hear you.” You guys, guess what? This is our first month at The VBAC Link where I'm bringing a special subject. Every month we are going to have a week and it's usually going to be the second week of the month where we are going to have a specific topic for those episodes of the week and this is the very first one. It is National Midwives' Week so I thought it would be really fun this week to talk about midwives. We love midwives. We love them. We love them and we are so grateful for them. We want to talk more about the impact that they leave when it comes to our overall experience. Julie: Yes. Meagan: The overall outcomes and honestly, just how flipping amazing they are. We want to talk more and then we'll share of course a story with a midwifery birth. Okay, Julie. You have a review. I'm sticking it to her today to read the review because sometimes I feel like it's nice to switch it up. Julie: Yeah. Let's switch it up. All right, this review– I'm assuming “VBAC Encouragement” is the title of the review.” Meagan: Yes. Julie: “VBAC Encouragement”. It says, “My first birth ended in an emergency Cesarean at 29 weeks and I knew as I was being rolled into the OR that I would go for a VBAC with my next baby. Not long after, The VBAC Link started and I was instantly obsessed.” I love to hear that. “I love the wide range of VBAC and CBAC stories. Listening to the women share honestly and openly was motivating and encouraging. As a doula, this podcast is something that I recommend to my VBAC clients. I'm so thankful for the brave women sharing the good, bad, and ugly of their stories and I'm thankful for Meagan and Julie for holding space for us all.” Aww, I love that. Meagan: I do too. I love the title, “VBAC Encouragement.” That is what this podcast is here for– to encourage you along the way no matter what you choose but to bring that encouragement, that empowerment, and the information from women all over the world literally. All over the world because you guys, we are not alone. I know that sometimes we can feel alone. I feel like sometimes VBAC journeys can feel isolating and it sucks. We don't want you to feel that way so that's why we started the podcast. That's why I'm here. That's why Julie comes on because she misses you and loves you all so much too and we want you to feel that encouragement. Meagan: Okay, you guys. We are talking about midwives. If you have never been cared for by a midwife, I think this is a really great episode to learn more about that and see if midwifery care is something that may apply to you or be something that is desired by you. I know that when I was going along with my VBAC journey, I didn't interview a midwife actually at first. I interviewed OB after OB after OB. Julie did interview a midwife and it didn't go over very well. Julie: No, it was fine. It just didn't feel right at that time. Meagan: What she said didn't make it feel right. What I want to talk about too and the reason why I point that out is because go check out the midwives in your area. Check them out. Go check them out. Really, interview them. Meet with them but guess what? It's okay if it doesn't feel right. It's okay if everyone is like, “Go, go, go. You have to have a midwife. OB no. OB no.” That's not how we are in this podcast. We are like, “Find the right provider for you.” But I do think that midwives are amazing and I do think they bring a different feel and different experience to a birth but even then sometimes you can go and interview a midwife and they're not the right fit. We're going to talk about the types of midwives. This isn't really a type. We're going to be talking about CPM, DEM, and LPM. Julie: In-hospital and out-of-hospital midwives, yeah. Meagan: Yeah, but I also want to talk about the word “medwives”. We have said this in the past where we say, “Oh, that midwife is a ‘medwife'” and what we mean by that is just that they may be more medically-minded. Every midwife is different and every view is different. Like Julie was saying, in-hospital, out-of-hospital, you may have more of a ‘medwife' out of the hospital, but guess what? I've also seen some out-of-hospital midwives who act more like, ‘medwives', really truly. Again, it goes back to finding the right person for you. But can we talk about that? The CPM or DEM? CPM is a certified professional midwife or direct entry midwife, right? Am I correct?Julie: Right. It's really interesting because all over the world, the requirements for midwifery are different. You're going to find different requirements in each country than in the United States, every state has its different requirements and laws surrounding midwifery care. In some states, out-of-hospital midwives cannot attend VBAC at all or they can as long as it's in a birth center. Or sometimes CNM– is a certified nurse midwife which is the credential that you have to have if you are going to work in a hospital but there are some CNMs who do out-of-hospital births as well. There is CPM which is a certified professional midwife which a lot of the midwives are out-of-hospital. That means they have taken the NARM exam which is the national association of registered midwives so they are registered with a national association.Meagan: Northern American Registry of Midwives. Julie: Oh yes. They have completed hundreds of births, lots and lots of hours, gone through the entire certification process and that's a certified midwife. Now, a licensed midwife which is a LDEM, a licensed direct-entry midwife just simply means that they hold licensure with the state. Licencsed midwife and certified midwife is different. Certified means they are certified with the board. Licensed means they are licensed with the state and usually licensed midwives can carry things like Pitocin, Methergine, antibiotics for GBS and things like that which is what the difference is. Licensed means they can have access to these different drugs for care. Meagan: Like Pitocin, and certain things through the IV, medications for hemorrhage, antibiotics, yes. Julie: Right, then CPMs who are certified, yeah. There are arguments for both. And DEM, direct entry midwife means that they are not certified or licensed. That doesn't mean that they are less than, it just means that they are not bound by the rules of NARM or the state. Now, there are again arguments for and against all of these different types. I mean, there are pros and cons to holding certification, holding licensure, and not holding certification and not holding licensure. Each midwife has to decide which route is best for them. Certified nurse-midwife obviously has access to all of the drugs and all of the things. They are certified and licensed. You could call it that but they have to have hospital privileges if they want to deliver in the hospital. You can't just be a CNM and show up to any hospital to deliver with them. They have to have privileges at that hospital. They have to work and be associated with a hospital just like an OB. An OB has to have privileges at any hospital. They can't just walk into any old hospital and deliver a baby. Meagan: Right. I think it's important to know the differences between the providers who you are looking at. Like she was saying, with a CNM, you are more likely to have that type of midwife in a hospital setting than you would be outside of the hospital but sometimes there are still CNMs who have privileges and choose to do birth outside of the hospital. I think it's an important thing to one, know the different types of midwives and two, know what's important to you. There are a lot of people who are like, “I will not birth with anyone else but a CNM.” That's okay. That's okay but you have to find what works best for you. Julie: Sorry, can I add in? Meagan: You're fine. Yeah. Julie: It's also important that you are familiar with the laws in your state if you are going out of the hospital. I don't want this episode to turn into a home birth episode. It should be about all of the midwives in all of the locations, but also, know what the laws are in your state and in your specific area about midwives. In Utah, we are really lucky because we have access to all the types of midwives in all the different locations, but not everywhere is like that. Yeah. Just a little plug-in for that. Meagan: Yes. I agree. I agree. I did mention that I didn't really go for midwifery care when I was looking for my VBAC– Lyla, my second. I don't even know why other than in my mind, this is going to sound so bad but in my mind, I was told that midwives are undereducated. Julie: Less qualified? Meagan: Less qualified to support VBAC. I was told this by many people out in the world and I just believed it. Again, I have grown a lot over the years. It's been so great and I'm glad that I have. That's just where I was.Julie: A lot of people think that though. People don't know. They just don't know. Meagan: No, they don't know so I wanted to boom. Did you hear it? I'm smashing it. Julie: Snipping it. Meagan: That is a myth that is going to be smashed. Midwives are fully capable of supporting you during your VBAC journey. We are going to start going over some stats and things about how midwives really actually do impact VBAC in a positive way but you may even run into and at least I know there are some places here in Utah where providers kind of oversee the midwifery groups in these hospitals and a lot of them will say that midwives are unable to support VBAC. That's another thing that you need to make sure you are asking if you are going in the hospital when you are birthing with midwives because a lot of times you are being seen with your midwife, you're treated by your midwife and everything is great. You've got this relationship with these midwives and then you go into labor and all of a sudden you have an OB overseeing your care because that midwife can oversee your pregnancy but not your birth. Know that that is a thing so make sure that if you are birthing in a hospital with a midwife that you ask, “Will I be birthing with the midwives or am I going to be seen by an OB?” But also know, like I said, you can be seen in a hospital by a midwife. Okay, let's talk about some evidence and what midwives bring to the table and maybe some differences that midwives bring to the table because I do think that in a lot of ways, it is scary to think, Okay. If I have to have a C-section, if I do not have this VBAC and I have to go to a C-section and I have to be treated by an OB– because midwives do not perform Cesareans. They do assist. Let me just say, a lot of midwives come in and they assist a Cesarean, but they do not perform the main Cesarean, that can be intimidating because you want your same provider but I don't know if that's necessarily needed all of the time. Maybe to someone that is. But just know that yes, they cannot perform a Cesarean but they often can assist. That's another good question to ask your midwife, especially in the hospital. If I go to a Cesarean, who will perform it and will you be there no matter what?Okay, let's talk about it. Let's talk about the evidence. Let's talk about experiences and how they can differ. Julie: Do you know what is so funny? I want to go back and touch on the beginning where you said you didn't know and you thought that midwives were less qualified and honestly especially in-hospital, in-hospital midwives– I want everyone to turn their ears on right now– have the exact same training and skills to deliver a baby vaginally as an OB does. The difference between a midwife and an OB in a hospital is a midwife cannot do surgery. I just want to say that very concisely. They are just as qualified. They can even do forceps deliveries. They can do an episiotomy if an episiotomy is necessary. They can do vacuum assist. Well, some hospitals have policies where they will or will not allow a midwife to do forceps or a vacuum but they can administer all different types of medications. They can literally do everything. They can do everything except for the surgery in the hospital.Out of the hospital, I would argue that they still have similar training depending on if they are licensed or not. They may or may not be carrying medications like Pitocin, Methergine, antibiotics, IV fluids, and things like that. But out-of-hospital midwives, many of them, at least the licensed ones, carry those things and can provide the same level of care. The only difference between– not the only difference, a big difference between out-of-hospital midwives and in-hospital midwives is they don't have immediate access to the OR and an OB. But guess what? In states like Utah and many, many states operate similarly, there are very strict and efficient transfer protocols in place so that when a midwife decides you need to transfer, say you are birthing at home, first of all, a midwife is going to be with you a big chunk of the time. They are going to be with you. They're going to be noticing things. They're going to be seeing things. They're not going to be there for just the last 10 minutes of deliveries like these OBs are. They are going to be in your house. I feel like out-of-hospital midwives are more present with you than in-hospital midwives even. They're going to notice things. They're going to see things. They're going to notice trends a lot of the time before a situation becomes emergent if you need to be transferred. There are those random last-second emergencies and there are protocols for how to handle those too, but the majority of the time when there is a transfer needed, you are going to be received at the hospital. The hospital is already going to have your records. They're already going to know what you're coming in for and they're going to be able to seamlessly take over your care, no matter what that looks like there. Now there are rare emergencies when you might need care within seconds. However, those are incredibly rare and that is one of the risks. Those are some of the risks that you need to consider when you think about out-of-hospital versus in-hospital care. But often, I have seen many instances where things have safely gotten transferred to a hospital before they reach the level of needing that severe emergent care. I think that is the biggest thing people don't understand. I don't know how many people I've talked to as a doula and as a birth photographer where they don't want to birth at home because they don't understand the level of care that is provided by out-of-hospital midwives. I'm thinking of a birth I just went to last summer and she was thinking about home birth but the husband was like– this was 36 weeks so they weren't comfortable transferring or anything like that, but I was like, “These home birth midwives are trained in emergencies. They know how to handle all of the same obstetric emergencies in the exact same ways that they do in the hospital. They know how to handle them and address them. If a transfer is necessary, they are going to transfer you. They carry medication. They have stethoscopes and fetal monitors and everything that they do in the hospital to care for you.” The dad was like, “Oh, I didn't know that.” It's not your mom coming to help you deliver your baby. It's a trained, qualified medical professional. I don't know. I saw this quote. Never mind. I'm not circling back. I'm going in a completely different direction. I saw this quote or a little meme thing on Facebook the other day. I was going to send it to you but I didn't. It said something like, “Once your provider and birth location is chosen and locked in place, choice is mostly an illusion.” Meagan: Wow. Mostly an illusion. Julie: Yes. Like the fact that you have a choice in your care is mostly an illusion. I was thinking about that and I was like, Is it really? I've seen some clients really advocate hard, and stuff like that. But I have also seen the majority of clients where providers, nurses, and birth locations have a heavy sway and you can be convinced that things are absolutely necessary and needed by the way that you are approached and if you are approached a different way, then you might make a different choice, right? The power of the provider and the birth location is so big and massive that choice, the fact that you have a choice involved, is mostly an illusion. I was sitting with that because I see it. I've said it before and I'll say it a million more times before I die probably that birth photographers and doulas have the most well-rounded view of birth. Period. Because we see birth in home, in birth centers, in hospitals, in all of the hospitals, in all of the homes, in all the birth centers, with all of the different providers. We can tell you what hospital– I mean, there are nurses at one hospital that will swear up, down, and sideways that this is the way to do things and the next hospital 3 miles down the road is going to do things completely different and their nurses are going to swear by a different way to do things because of the environment that they are in. Meagan: Yeah. 100%.Julie: So if you want to know in your area what hospitals are the best for the type of birth that you want, talk to a birth photographer. Talk to a doula because they are going to be the ones with the most well-rounded view. Period. Meagan: Yeah. We definitely see a lot, you guys. We really do. Remember, if you are looking for a doula, check out thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Search for a doula in your area. You guys, these doulas are amazing and they are VBAC-certified. Julie: What were we going to circle back to? You were saying something. Meagan: Well, there's an article titled, “Effectiveness of Midwifery-led Care on Pregnancy Outcomes in Low and Middle-Income Countries” which is interesting because a lot of the time, when we are in low and middle-income countries, the support is not good. Anyway, they went through and it said that “10 studies were eligible for inclusion in the systemic review of which 5 studies were eligible for inclusion in the meta-analysis. Women receiving–”Julie: I love meta-analyses. They are my favorite. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Go on. Meagan: I know you do. It says, “Women receiving midwifery-led care had a significantly lower rate of postpartum hemorrhage and reduced rate of birth–” How do you say this, Julie? It's like asphyxia? Julie: Asphyxia? Meagan: Uh-huh. I've just never known how to say that. It says, “The meta-analysis further showed a significantly reduced risk in emergency Cesarean section. Within the conclusion, it did show that midwifery-led care had a significantly positive impact on improving various maternal and neonatal outcomes in low and middle-income countries. We therefore advise widespread implementation of midwifery-led care in low and middle-income countries.” Let's beef this up in low and middle-income countries. But what does it mean if you are not in a low and middle-income country? Julie: Well, I see the same and similar studies showing that in the United States and all of these other bigger countries that are larger and more educated. It's interesting because– sorry. I have a thought. I'm just trying to put it together. Meagan: That is okay. Julie: Midwifery-led care is probably more accessible and maybe accessible isn't the right word. It's more common probably in lower-income countries. I'm thinking third-world countries and second-world countries because it's expensive to go to a hospital. It's expensive to have an OB. In some countries like Brazil, the C-section rate is very, very high and it's a sign of wealth and status because you can go to this private hospital with these luxury birth suites and stay like a VIP, get your C-section, save your vagina– I use air quotes– “save your vagina” by going to this affluent hospital. Right? Meagan: Yes. Julie: I think in lower-income countries, it's going to be not only an easier thing to do but kind of the only thing to do, maybe the only choice. And here, it's funny because here, out-of-hospital births– first of all, insurance is stupid. In the United States, insurances are so stupid. It's a huge money-making organization, the medical system is. Insurance does cover a big chunk of hospital births and they don't cover out-of-hospital births so a lot of the time, an out-of-hospital birth is kind of the opposite. You have to have a little bit of money in order to pay for an out-of-hospital midwife because your insurance isn't likely going to cover it. More insurances are coming on board with that but it will be a little bit of time before we see that shift. But there are similar outcomes in the United States and in wealthier countries that midwifery-led care, not just out of the hospital, but in-hospital midwifery-led care has lower rates of Cesarean, lower rates of complication, lower rates of induction, lower rates of mortality and morbidity than obstetric-led care. You are going to a surgeon. You are going to a trained surgeon to have a natural, non-complicated delivery. Meagan: It's interesting because going back to the low income, in our minds, we think that the care is not that great. But then we look at it and it's like, the care is doing pretty good over there in these lower-income, third-world countries. Yeah. This is actually in Evidence-Based Birth. It says, “In the United States, there are typically 4 million births each year.” 4 million. You guys, that's a lot. The majority of these births are attended by physicians which are only 9% attended by certified nurse midwives and less than 1% are attended by CPMs, so certified professional midwives or traditional midwives. You guys, that is insane. That is so low. She says in this podcast of hers which we are going to make sure to link because I think it's a really great one, “If you only look at vaginal births, midwives do attend a higher portion of vaginal births in the United States, but still it's only about 14%.”Julie: Yeah. If you have a normal– I use normal very loosely– uncomplicated pregnancy, there is absolutely no reason that you cannot see a midwife either out of the hospital or in the hospital. Now, I would encourage you to go and interview some midwives in your local hospitals. I would encourage you to look into the local birth community and see what people recommend because even if you are going in a hospital and have a midwife, you have the same access to the OR and an OB that can take care of you in case of an emergency. A lot of people are like, “Well, I'd just rather see an OB just in case of an emergency so that way I know who is doing my C-section,” I promise you that the OB doing your C-section, you are only going to see for an hour. They probably are not going to talk to you. It doesn't matter how personable they are or what their bedside manner is or if you know anything because I promise you, when you are on the operating room table, you're not going to be worried about who's doing your surgery. You're just not. I'm sorry. That's maybe a harsh thing to say, but it's going to be the farthest thing from your mind. Plus, in the hospital, your midwife is more than likely going to be assisting with the surgery too so you are going to have a familiar face in the operating room if that happens. I also think everybody knows by now that I am not on board with doing something just in case when it comes to medical care. Just in case things can cause a lot more problems that they are trying to prevent. So yeah. Anyway, that's my two cents. Meagan: Yeah. You know, I really think that when it comes to midwives, there is even more than just reducing things like interventions and Cesareans and inductions which of course, lead to interventions and things like that. I feel like overall, people leave their birth experience having that better view on the birth because of things like that where midwives are with you more and they seem to be allowed more time even with insurance. You guys, insurance, like she said, sucks. It just sucks. It limits our providers. I want to just point that out that a lot of these OBs, I think that they would spend more time with us. I think they want to spend more time with us in a lot of ways, but they can't because insurance pulls them down and makes it so they can't. But these midwives are able to spend so much more time with us in many ways. Okay. Let's see. What else do we want to talk about here? We talked about interventions. Midwives will typically allow parents to go past that 40-week mark. We talked about the ARRIVE trial here in the past where they started inducing first-time moms at 39 weeks and unfortunately, it's stuck in a lot of ways so providers are inducing at 39 weeks and that means we are starting to do things like stripping membranes at 37 and 38 weeks. It seems like providers really, really– and when I say providers, like OB/GYNs, they are really wanting babies to be born for sure by 40 weeks but by 40 weeks, they are really pushing it. Midwives to tend to allow the parents to go past that 40-week mark. That's just something else I've noticed with clients who choose VBAC and then end up choosing midwives. They'll often end up choosing midwives because of that reason and they will feel so much better when they reach that point in pregnancy because they don't feel that crazy pressure to strip their membranes and go into labor or they are going to be facing a Cesarean and things like that. I feel like that's another really big way to change the feeling of your care with midwives is understanding when it comes down to the end of things, they are going to be a little bit more lenient and understanding and not press as hard. Like we said in the beginning, there are a lot of people who do press it– those “medwives” where they are like, “No, you need to have a baby.” We just recorded a story where the midwife was like, “Well, you need to see the OB and you need to do a membrane sweep,” and they were suggesting these things. But really, typically with midwives, you are going to see less pressure in the end of pregnancy. Midwives spend more time in prenatal visits. We were just talking about that. Insurance can limit OBs, but a lot of the time, they will really spend more time with you. They are going to spend 20+ minutes and if you are out of the hospital, sometimes they will spend a whole hour with you going over things. Where are you mentally? Where are you physically? What are you wanting? Going over desires and the plan for the birth. Past experiences may be creeping in because we know that past experiences can creep in along the way. So yeah. Okay, Julie is in her car, you guys. She's rocking it with her cute sunglasses. She is on her way. She is so nice to have the last half hour of her free time spent with us. So Julie, do you have any insight or any extra words on what I was just saying? Julie: You know, I do. Hopefully, you can hear me okay. I'm going to hit a dead spot in two seconds. Meagan: I can hear you great. Julie: Okay, perfect. I have this little– there's a spot on my road where I always cut out so stop me if I need to repeat what I said. I wanted to go back to the beginning and just talk for half a second because we know my first ended in a C-section. For my first birth, I actually started out by looking at birth centers because I wanted an out-of-hospital birth. I knew that from the beginning. I interviewed a couple of midwives and there was one group that I was going to go with at a birth center and I was ready to go but something didn't quite feel right. It wasn't anything the midwives did. It wasn't anything that the birth center was. It wasn't that I didn't feel safe there. It was just that something didn't feel right. So I just stayed with my OB/GYN. I had to get on Clomid to get pregnant. I just stayed with that guy who is the same guy that Meagan had and the same guy who did my C-section because something didn't feel right. I mean, we know now and I can look back in hindsight. This was, gosh, 11.5 years ago. I know that I ended up having preeclampsia and I ended up having to get induced because of it. Had I started out-of-hospital, I would have had to transfer. There was nothing– I would have had to transfer care before I even got to 37 weeks. I had a 36-week induction. That's the thing though. Out-of-hospital midwives have protocols. Each state has different guidelines, but there are requirements for when they have to transfer care– if your blood pressure is high, if you have preeclampsia signs, if you deliver before a certain due date, or after a certain gestational age. You're going to be safe. If you have complications in pregnancy, you're going to be safe. You're going to be transferred. You're going to be cared for. But also, I just want to put emphasis on this which is what I'm tying into the last thing I want to say which is going to be forever long, is that you can trust your intuition. My intuition was telling me that the birth center was not the right place for me even though it checked all of the boxes. Your intuition is not going to tell the future every time, but what I wanted to lead into is that– oh and do you know what is so funny also? I had three out-of-hospital births after that, but with my fourth birth, I started out with the same midwife I had for the other two home births, and for some reason, I felt like I needed to transfer care back to the hospital so I went back to the hospital for two months and all of a sudden, my insurance change and the biggest network of hospitals in my state wasn't covered by my insurance anymore so it felt right to go back to out-of-hospital birth. I don't know why I had to do that whole loop-dee-loop of transferring to a hospital just to transfer back to the same out-of-hospital midwife that I had in the first place but I believe there was a purpose to that. I believe there was a purpose to that. I want to tell you guys that if seeking midwifery care whether in the hospital or out of the hospital feels uncomfortable to you or feels like, I don't know. These midwives still sound like chicken-dancing hippies to me, I would encourage you to go talk to some local midwives whether in a hospital or out of the hospital. Just sit down and talk to them and say, “Hey.” It's easier to talk to an out-of-hospital midwife. Out-of-hospital midwives do free consultations for you. In-hospital midwives, you might have to make an appointment and it might be harder but you should still try and see and get a vibe or just transfer care to them and go to a few appointments and see. You can always switch care back to a different provider or an OB because your intuition is smart but it does not know, it cannot guide you about things that you do not know anything about. I would encourage you to go and chat with these different providers, even different OBs if you want because your provider choice is so, so, so important. It is one of the most important decisions you're going to make in your care for your birth. It should be a good one. Your intuition can't tell you to go see x, y, z provider if you don't even know who x, y, z provider is. Gather as much information as you can. Talk to as many providers as you can. Go see the midwife. Interview the doula. Check out the birth photographer's website. See what I did there? See how it feels because even as a birth photographer, whenever I'm doing interviews with people, I'm not a fly-on-the-wall birth photographer. A lot of birth photographers brag about being a fly on the wall. You won't even know I'm there. No. I don't buy that because who is in your birth space is important. I am a member of your birth team just like every other person in that space, just like your nurses, your OB, your midwife, your doula– everybody there is a member of your birth team. I am a member of your birth team too and I will hold space for you. I will support you and I will love you. I am not a fly on the wall. Now, your provider is a member of your birth team. They probably arguably are one of the biggest influencers about how your birth is going to go and you deserve to be well-informed about who they are. You deserve to have multiple options that you know about and have thoroughly vetted and you deserve to stick up for yourself and do the provider who is more in line with the type of birth you want. How do you do that? You do that by finding out more about the providers who are available to you in all of the different birth locations and settings. Meagan: Yes. So I want to talk more about that too because there are studies and papers out there showing that the attitude or the view on VBAC in that area, in that hospital, in that birth center, both midwives and OBs, but we are talking about midwives here, really impacts the way that a birth can go. So if you don't interview and you don't research and you don't find those connections and even try, you will not know and in the end, it may not be the way you want. Even then, even if we find those perfect midwives, even if Julie went to the hospital midwife, she probably would have had a great experience, but who knows?Julie: Also, arguable too though, you could be seeing the most highly recommended VBAC provider in your area in the most VBAC-supportive hospital in your area that everybody goes to and everybody raves about, and if you don't feel comfortable there for whatever reason, you don't have to see the best, most VBAC-supportive provider if it doesn't feel right and if it doesn't sit right with you. Meagan: Yes. Julie: It goes both ways. Meagan: Yes. Julie: Sorry, I'm really passionate about this clearly. Meagan: No, because it does. It goes both ways. I mean, that's what this podcast is about is conversation and story sharing and finding what's best for you because even with VBAC, VBAC might not be the right option for you, but you don't know unless you learn. You don't know unless you learn more about midwives. Really though, people usually come out of midwifery care having a better experience and a more positive experience. I think that goes along with the lines of they do give a little bit more care. They do seem to be able to dive deeper to them as an individual and what they are wanting and their desires. They are a little less medically minded and a little bit more open-minded. You are less likely to have interventions. You are less likely to have those things that cause trauma and that causes the cascade that leads to the Cesarean. I'm going to have all of the links but I'm just going to read this highlighted. It's a study from Europe actually. It says, “A recent qualitative study in Europe explored the maternity culture in high and low VBAC countries and found that–” I'm talking a lot about high and low countries. Sorry guys, I'm realizing I'm talking a lot about it but a lot of these studies differ. It says, “Clinicians in the high VBAC countries had a positive and pro-VBAC attitude which encouraged women to choose VBAC whereas the countries with low VBAC rate, clinicians held both pro and anti-VBAC views which negatively affected women who were seeking VBAC. Both of these studies have shown that having midwifery care can have a positive influence on VBAC rates with an increase in maternal and neonatal morbidity.”Right there, not only doing the research on your provider, but doing the research within your location, what their thoughts are, what their views are, what their high-VBAC attitude or low-VBAC attitude is. If they are coming at you, even these midwives you guys, and they have all of these stipulations, it might be a red flag. It might not be the right midwifery group for you. Julie: Absolutely. That's where the intuition comes in. I like what you said about the VBAC culture. You can tell at different hospitals. We have been to many, many hospitals in our area. Sorry, can you hear my blinkers? It's distracting. Let's see. I absolutely guarantee you that every hospital has a culture around VBAC. Some of them are positive and supportive and uplifting and some of them are fearful and fear-based and operate on a fact where they are going to be more likely to pull you toward a repeat C-section or other interventions. I encourage you to look into the culture of your hospital but not only hospitals too. I realize it's not just hospital-specific. It's also out-of-hospital midwives. They all have their culture around VBAC. Your out-of-hospital midwives and your in-hospital midwives, all of the midwives, your group whether you see a solo practice or a group OB practice or you see a group midwifery practice or whatever, there is a culture surrounding VBAC. You need to do yourself a favor and figure out what that culture is. I got to my appointment and I need to head in so I'm going to say goodbye really fast. I'm going to leave Meagan alone to wrap up the episode, but yes. My parting words are honoring your intuition, talk as much to your VBAC provider as you can and find out what the culture is surrounding that no matter who you choose to go with and also, do not automatically write off midwives. You are doing yourself a huge disservice if you are not considering a midwife for your care. It doesn't mean you have to go with one, but I feel like everybody should at least look into them. I love you guys! Bye!Meagan: Okay. And wrapping up you guys, I am just going to echo her. I think that completely discrediting midwives without even interviewing them at all is something that is a disservice to ourselves. I'm going to tell you that I did that. I did that. I didn't even consider it. I interviewed 12 providers, 12 providers which is crazy and I didn't interview one midwife. Not one. I was interviewing OBs and MFMs and I realize I don't remember interviewing a single midwife. The only thing I can think of is that I let the outside world lead me to believe that midwives were less qualified. Yale has an article and they say, “First-time mothers giving birth at medical centers where midwives were on their care team were 75% less likely to have their labor induced.” 74% less likely to have their labor induced, 74% less likely to receive Pitocin augmentation, and 12% less likely to deliver by Cesarean which is a big deal. I know most of us listening here are not first-time moms. We've had a Cesarean. Maybe we've had one, two, three, or maybe four, but the stats on midwives are there. It is there and it's something to not ignore so if you have not yet checked out midwives in your area, I highly encourage you to do so. Like Julie said, you don't even have to go with anybody, but at least interviewing them to know and feel the difference of care that you may be able to have is a big deal. I highly encourage you. I love you all. I'm so grateful for midwives. I'm so grateful for my midwife. My VBAC baby was with a midwife and I did have an OB. I was one of those who had an OB backup who could care for me and see me if I needed to. That for me made me feel more comfortable but it's also something that can get confusing. I think we've talked about where sometimes you will do dual care and you will have one person telling you one thing and the other provider telling you the other thing. That can get stressful and confusing so maybe stick with your provider. But do what's best for you. Again, another message. Don't just completely wipe out the idea of a midwife if you have midwives in your area as an option. It may be something that will just blow your mind. Thank you all so much for listening and hey, if you have a midwife who you suggest or you've gone through a VBAC with, we have our VBAC-supportive provider list and we would love for you to add to it. Go check out in the show notes or you can go over to our Instagram and click in our Linktree and we have got our provider list there for you. Or if you are looking for that midwife to interview, go check them out. We definitely love adding to this list and love referring it for everybody looking for a VBAC-supportive provider. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands