Podcasts about mike ok

Ryan Flessner, What If I Don't Understand Their Thinking? ROUNDING UP: SEASON 3 | EPISODE 15 “What do I do if I don't understand my student's strategy?” This is a question teachers grapple with constantly, particularly when conferring with students during class. How educators respond in moments like these can have a profound impact on students' learning and their mathematical identities. In this episode, we talk with Ryan Flessner from Butler University about what educators can say or do when faced with this situation. BIOGRAPHY Ryan Flessner is a professor of teacher education in the College of Education at Butler University in Indianapolis, Indiana. He holds a PhD in curriculum and instruction with an emphasis in teacher education from the University of Wisconsin–Madison; a master of arts in curriculum and teaching from Teachers College, Columbia University; and a bachelor of science in elementary education from Butler University. Prior to his time at the university level, he taught grades 3–7 in Indianapolis; New York City; and Madison, Wisconsin. RESOURCES Nearpod Pear Deck GeoGebra  Magma Math TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: “What do I do if I don't understand my student's strategy?” This is a question teachers grapple with constantly, particularly when conferring with students during class. How we respond in moments like these can have a profound impact on our students' learning and their mathematical identities. Today we'll talk with Ryan Flessner from Butler University about what educators can say or do when faced with this very common situation.  Welcome to the podcast, Ryan. Really excited to talk to you today. Ryan Flessner: Thanks, Mike. I'm flattered to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. Mike: So, this experience of working with a student and not being able to make sense of their solution feels like something that almost every teacher has had. And I'll speak for myself and say that when it happens to me, I feel a lot of anxiety. And I just want to start by asking, what would you say to educators who are feeling apprehensive or unsure about what to do when they encounter a situation like this? Ryan: Yeah, so I think that everybody has that experience. I think the problem that we have is that teachers often feel the need to have all of the answers and to know everything and to be the expert in the room. But as an educator, I learned really quickly that I didn't have all the answers. And to pretend like I did put a lot of pressure on me and made me feel a lot of stress and would leave me answering children by saying, “Let me get back to you on that.” And then I would scurry and try and find all the answers so I could come back with a knowledgeable idea. And it was just so much more work than to just simply say, “I don't know. Let's investigate that together.” Or to ask kids, “That's something interesting that I'm seeing you do. I've never seen a student do that before. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?” And just having that ability to free myself from having to have all the answers and using that Reggio-inspired practice—for those who know early childhood education—to follow the child, to listen to what he or she or they say to us and try to see. I can usually keep up with a 7- or an 8-year-old as they're explaining math to me. I just may never have seen them notate something the way they did. So, trying to ask that question about, “Show me what you know. Teach me something new.” The idea that a teacher could be a learner at the same time I think is novel to kids, and I think they respond really well to that idea. Mike: So, before we dig in a little bit more deeply about how teachers respond to student strategies if they don't understand, I just want to linger and think about the assumptions that many educators, myself included, might bring to this situation. Assumptions about their role, assumptions about what it would mean for a student if they don't know the answer right away. How do you think about some of the assumptions that are causing some of that anxiety for us? Ryan: Yeah. When the new generation of standards came out, especially in the field of math, teachers were all of a sudden asked to teach in a way that they themselves didn't learn. And so, if you have that idea that you have to have all the answers and you have to know everything, that puts you in a really vulnerable spot because how are we supposed to just magically teach things we've never learned ourselves? And so, trying to figure out ways that we can back up and try and make sense of the work that we're doing with kids, for me that was really helpful in understanding what I wanted from my students. I wanted them to make sense of the learning. So, if I hadn't made sense of it yet, how in the world could I teach them to make sense of it? And so we have to have that humility to say, “I don't know how to do this. I need to continue my learning trajectory and to keep going and trying to do a little bit better than the day that I did before.” I think that teachers are uniquely self-critical and they're always trying to do better, but I don't know if we necessarily are taught how to learn once we become teachers. Like, “We've already learned everything we have to do. Now we just have to learn how to teach it to other people.” But I don't think we have learned everything that we have to learn. There's a lot of stuff in the math world that I don't think we actually learned. We just memorized steps and kind of regurgitated them to get our A+ on a test or whatever we did.  So, I think having the ability to stop and say, “I don't know how to do this, and so I'm going to keep working at it, and when I start to learn it, I'm going to be able to ask myself questions that I should be asking my students.” And just being really thoughtful about, “Why is the child saying the thing that she is?,” “Why is she doing it the way that she's doing it?,” “Why is she writing it the way that she's writing it?” And if I can't figure it out, the expert on that piece of paper is the child [herself], so why wouldn't I go and say, “Talk to me about this.”? I don't have to have all the answers right off the cuff. Mike: In some ways, what you were describing just there is a real nice segue because I've heard you say that our minds and our students' minds often work faster than we can write, or even in some cases faster than we can speak. I'm wondering if you can unpack that. Why do you think this matters, particularly in the situation that we're talking about? Ryan: Yeah, I think a lot of us, especially in math, have been conditioned to get an answer. And nobody's really asked us “Why?” in the past. And so, we've done all of the thinking, we give the answer, and then we think the job is done. But with a lot of the new standards, we have to explain why we think that way. And so, all those ideas that just flurried through our head, we have to now articulate those either in writing on paper or in speech, trying to figure out how we can communicate the mathematics behind the answer.  And so, a lot of times I'll be in a classroom, and I'll ask a student for an answer, and I'll say, “How'd you get that?” And the first inclination that a lot of kids have is, “Oh, I must be wrong if a teacher is asking me why.” So, they think they're wrong. And so I say, “No, no, no. It's not that you're wrong. I'm just curious. You came to that answer, you stopped and you looked up at the ceiling for a while and then you came to me and you said the answer is 68. How did you do that?” A child will say something like, “Well, I just thought about it in my head.” And I say, “Well, what did you think about in your head?” “Well, my brain just told me the answer was 68.”  And we have to actually talk to kids. And we have to teach them how to talk to us—that we're not quizzing them or saying that they're wrong or they didn't do something well enough—that we just want them to communicate with us how they're going about finding these things, what the strategies are. Because if they can communicate with us in writing, if they can communicate on paper, if they can use gestures to explain what they're thinking about, all of those tell us strengths that they bring to the table. And if I can figure out the strengths that you have, then I can leverage those strengths as I address needs that arise in my classroom. And so, I really want to create this bank of information about individual students that will help me be the best teacher that I can be for them. And if I can't ask those questions and they can't answer those questions for me, how am I going to individualize my instruction in meaningful ways for kids? Mike: We've been talking a little bit about the teacher experience in this moment, and we've been talking about some of the things that a person might say.  One of the things that I'm thinking about before we dig in a little bit deeper is, just, what is my role? How do you think about the role of a teacher in the moment when they encounter thinking from a student that they don't quite understand […] yet? Part of what I'm after is, how can a teacher think about what they're trying to accomplish in that moment for themselves as a learner and also for the learner in front of them? How would you answer that question? Ryan: When I think about an interaction with a kid in a moment like that, I try to figure out, as the teacher, my goal is to try and figure out what this child knows so that I can continue their journey in a forward trajectory. Instead of thinking about, “They need to go to page 34 because we're on page 33,” just thinking about, “What does this kid need next from me as the teacher?”  What I want them to get out of the situation is I want them to understand that they are powerful individuals, that they have something to offer the conversation and not just to prove it to the adult in the room. But if I can hear them talk about these ideas, sometimes the kids in the classroom can answer each other's questions. And so, if I can ask these things aloud and other kids are listening in, maybe because we're in close proximity or because we're in a small-group setting, if I can get the kids to verbalize those ideas sometimes one kid talking strikes an idea in another kid. Or another kid will say, “I didn't know how to answer Ryan when he asked me that question before, but now that I hear what it sounds like to answer that type of a question, now I get it, and I know how I would say it if it were my turn.”  So, we have to actually offer kids the opportunity to learn how to engage in those moments and how to share their expertise so others can benefit from their expertise and use that in a way that's helpful in the mathematical process. Mike: One of the most practical—and, I have to say, freeing—things that I've heard you recommend when a teacher encounters student work and they're still trying to make sense of it, is to just go ahead and name it. What are some of the things you imagine that a teacher might say that just straight out name the fact that they're still trying to understand a student's thinking? Tell me a little bit about that. Ryan: Well, I think the first thing is that we just have to normalize the question “Why?” or “Tell me how you know that.” If we normalize those things—a lot of times kids get asked that question when they're wrong, and so it's an [immediate] tip of the hat that “You're wrong, now go back and fix it. There's something wrong with you. You haven't tried hard enough.” Kids get these messages even if we don't intend for them to get them. So, if we can normalize the question “Tell me why you think that” or “Explain that to me”—if we can just get them to see that every time you give me an answer whether it's right or wrong, I'm just going to ask you to talk to me about it, that takes care of half of the problem.  But I think sometimes teachers get stuck because—and myself being one of them—we get stuck because we'll look at what a student is doing and they do something that we don't anticipate. Or we say, “I've shown you three different ways to get at this problem, different strategies you can use, and you're not using any of them.” And so, instead of getting frustrated that they're not listening to us, how do we use that moment to inquire into the things that we said obviously aren't useful, so what is useful to this kid? How is he attacking this on his paper?  So, I often like to say to a kid, “Huh, I noticed that you're doing something that isn't up on our anchor chart. Tell me about this. I haven't seen this before. How can you help me understand what you're doing?” And sometimes it's the exact same thinking as other strategies that kids are using. So, I can pair kids together and say, “Huh, you're both talking about it in the same way, but you're writing it differently on paper.” And so, I think about how I can get kids just to talk to me and tell me what's happening so that I can help give them a notation that might be more acceptable to other mathematicians or to just honor the fact that they have something novel and interesting to share with other kids. Other questions I talk about are, I will say, “I don't understand what's happening here, and that's not your fault, that's my fault. I just need you to keep explaining it to me until you say something that strikes a chord.” Or sometimes I'll bring another kid in, and I'll have the kids listen together, and I'll say, “I think this is interesting, but I don't understand what's going on. Can you say it to her? And then maybe she'll say it in a way that will make more sense to me.” Or I'll say, “Can you show me on your paper—you just said that—can you show me on your paper where that idea is?” Because a lot of times kids will think things in their head, but they don't translate it all onto the paper. And so, on the paper, it's missing a step that isn't obvious to the viewer of the paper. And so, we'll say, “Oh, I see how you do that. Maybe you could label your table so that we know exactly what you're talking about when you do this. Or maybe you could show us how you got to 56 by writing 8 times 7 in the margin or something.”  Just getting them to clarify and try to help us understand all of the amazing things that are in their head. I will often tell them too, “I love what you're saying. I don't see it on your paper, so I just want you to say it again. And I'm going to write it down on a piece of paper that makes sense to me so that I don't forget all of the cool things that you said.” And I'll just write it using more of a standard notation, whether that's a ratio table or a standard US algorithm or something. I'll write it to show the kid that thing that you're doing, there's a way that people write that down. And so, then we can compare our notations and try and figure out “What's the thing that you did?,” “How does that compare to the thing that I did?,” “Do I understand you clearly now?” to make sure that the kid has the right to say the thing she wants to say in the way that she wants to say it, and then I can still make sense of it in my own way. It's not a problem for me to write it differently as long as we're speaking the same language. Mike: I want to mark something really important, and I don't want it to get lost for folks. One of the things that jumped out is the moves that you were describing. You could potentially take up those moves if you really were unsure of how a student were thinking, if you had a general notion but you had some questions, or if you totally already understood what the student was doing. Those are questions that aren't just reserved for the point in time when you don't understand—they're actually good questions regardless of whether you fully understand it or don't understand it at all. Did I get that right? Ryan: Yes. I think that's exactly the point. One thing that I am careful of is, sometimes kids will ask me a question that I know the answer to, and there's this thing that we do as teachers where we're like, “I'm not sure. Why don't you help me figure that out?”—when the kid knows full well that you know the answer.  And so, trying not to patronize kids with those questions, but to really show that I'm asking you these questions, not because I'm patronizing you. I'm asking these questions because I am truly curious about what you're thinking inside and all of the ideas that surround the things that you've written on your paper, or the things that you've said to your partner, to truly honor that the more I know about you, the better teacher I can be for you. Mike: So, in addition to naming the situation, one of the things that jumped out for me—particularly as you were talking about the students—is, what do you think the impact is on a student's thinking? But also their mathematical identity, or even the set of classroom norms, when they experience this type of questioning or these [types] of questions? Ryan: So, I think I talked a little bit about normalizing the [questions] “Why?” or “How do you know that?” And so, just letting that become a classroom norm I think is a sea-changing moment for a lot of classrooms—that the conversation is just different if the kids know they have to justify their thinking whether they're right or wrong. Half the time, if they are incorrect, they'll be able to correct themselves as they're talking it through with you. So, kids can be freed up when they're allowed to use their expertise in ways that allow them to understand that the point of math is to truly make sense of it so that when you go out into the world, you understand the situation, and you have different tools to attack it.  So, what's the way that we can create an environment that allows them to truly see themselves as mathematical thinkers? And to let them know that “Your grades in other classes don't tell me much about you as a mathematician. I want to learn what really works for you, and I want to try and figure out where you struggle. And both of those things are important to me because we can use them in concert with each other. So, if I know the things you do well, I can use those to help me build a plan of instruction that will take you further in your understandings.”  I think that one of the things that is really important is for kids to understand that we don't do math because we want a good grade. I think a lot of people think that the point of math is to get a good grade or to pass a test or to get into the college that you want to get into, or because sixth grade teachers want you to know this. I really want kids to understand that math is a fantastic language to use out in the world, and there are ways that we can interpret things around us if we understand some pretty basic math. And so how do we get them to stop thinking that math is about right answers and next year and to get the job I want? Well, those things may be true, but that's not the real meaning of math. Math is a way that we can live life. And so, if we don't help them understand the connections between the things that they're doing on a worksheet or in a workbook page, if we don't connect those things to the real world, what's the meaning? What's the point for them? And how do we keep them engaged in wanting to know more mathematics?  So, really getting kids to think about who they are as people and how math can help them live the life that they want to live. Creating classroom environments that have routines in place that support kids in thinking in ways that will move them forward in their mathematical understanding. Trying to help them see that there's no such thing as “a math person” or “not a math person.” That everybody has to do math. You do math all the time. You just might not even know that you're doing math. So, I think all of those ideas are really important. And the more curious I can be about students, maybe the more curious they'll be about the math. Mike: You're making me think that this experience of making sense of someone else's reasoning has a lot of value for students. And I'm wondering how you've seen educators have students engage and make sense of their peer strategies. Ryan: Yeah. One of the things that I love to see teachers doing is using students' work as the conversation starter. I often, in my classroom, when I started doing this work, I would bring children up to the overhead projector or the document camera. And they would kind of do a show and tell and just say, “I did this and then I did this, and then I did this thing next.” And I would say, “That's really great, thank you.” And I'd bring up the next student. And it kind of became a show-and-tell-type situation. And I would look at the faces of the other kids in the room, and they would kind of just either be completely checked out or sitting there like raising their hand excitedly—“I want to share mine, I want to share mine.” And what I realized was, that there was really only one person who was engaged in that show-and-tell manner, and that was the person who was sharing their work. And so, I thought, “How can I change that?” So, I saw a lot of really amazing teachers across my career. And the thing that I saw that I appreciated the most is that when a piece of student work is shared, the person who really shouldn't talk is the person who created the work because they already know the work. What we need to do as a group is we need to investigate, “What happened here on this paper?” “Why do you think they made the moves that they made? And how could that help us understand math, our own math, in a different way?” And so, getting kids to look in at other kids' work, and not just saying, “Oh, Mike, how do you understand Ryan's work?” It's “Mike, can you get us started?” And then you say the first thing, and then I say, “OK, let's stop. Let's make sure that we've got this right.” And then we go to the kid whose work it is and say, “Are we on the right track? Are we understanding what you're …?” So, we're always checking with that expert. We're making sure they have the last word, because It's not my strategy. I didn't create it. Just because I'm the teacher doesn't mean you should come and ask me about this because this is Mike's strategy. So go and ask the person who created that.  So, trying to get them to understand that we all need to engage in each other's work. We all need to see the connections. We can learn from each other. And there's an expectation that everyone shares, right? So, it's not just the first kid who raises his hand. It's “All of you are going to get a chance to share.” And I think the really powerful thing is I've done this work even with in-service teachers. And so, when we look at samples of student work, what's fascinating is it just happens naturally because the kid's not in the room. We can't have that kid do a show and tell. We have to interpret their work. And so, trying to look at the kid's work and imagine, “What are the types of things we think this child is doing?,” “What do we think the strengths are on this paper?,” “What questions would you ask?,” “What would you do next?,” is such an interesting thing to do when the child isn't in the room. But when I'm with students, it's just fascinating to watch the kid whose work is on display just shine, even though they're not saying a word, because they just say, “Huh.” They get it. They understand what I did and why I did it.  I think that it's really important for us not just to have kids walk up to the board and do board work and just solve a problem using the steps that they've memorized or just go up and do a show and tell, [but] to really engage everyone in that process so that we're all learning. We're not just kind of checking out or waiting for our turn to talk. Mike: OK, you were talking about the ways that an educator can see how a student was thinking or the ways that an educator could place student work in front of other students and have them try to make sense of it. I wonder if there are any educational technology tools that you've seen that might help an educator who's trying to either understand their students' thinking or put it out for their students to understand one another's thinking. Ryan: Yeah, there's so many different pieces of technology and things out there. It's kind of overwhelming to try and figure out which one is which. So, I mean, I've seen people use things like Nearpod or Pear Deck—some of those kind of common technologies that you'll see when people do an educational technology class or a workshop at a conference or something. I've seen a lot of people lately using GeoGebra to create applets that they can use with their kids. One that I've started using a lot recently is Magma Math. Magma Math is great. I've used this with teachers and professional development situations to look at samples of student work because the thing that Magma has that I haven't seen in a lot of other technologies is there's a playback function. So, I can look at a static piece of finished work, but I can also rewind, and as the child works in this program, it records it. So, I can watch in real time what the child does. And so, if I can't understand the work because things are kind of sporadically all over the page, I can just rewatch the order that the child put something onto the page. And I think that's a really great feature.  There's just all these technologies that offer us opportunities to do things that I couldn't do at the beginning of my career or I didn't know how to do. And the technology facilitates that. And it's not just putting kids on an iPad so they can shoot lasers at the alien that's invading by saying, “8 times 5 is 40,” and the alien magically blows up. How does that teach us anything? But some of these technologies really allow us to dig deeply into a sample of work that students have finished or inquire into, “How did that happen and why did that happen?” And the technologies are just getting smarter and smarter, and they're listening to teachers saying, “It would be really helpful if we could do this or if we could do that.” And so, I think there are a lot of resources out there—sometimes too many, almost an embarrassment of riches. So, trying to figure out which ones are the ones that are actually worth our time, and how do we fund that in a school district or in a school so that teachers aren't paying for these pieces out of their pocket. Mike: You know what? I think that's a great place to stop. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. It has been an absolute pleasure talking with you. Ryan: It's always great to talk to you, Mike. Thanks for all you do. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2025 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org  

Rounding Up Season 3 | Episode 3 – Choice as a Foundation for Student Engagement Guest: Drs. Zandra de Araujo and Amber Candela Mike Wallus: As an educator, I know that offering my students choice has a big impact on their engagement, their identity, and their sense of autonomy. That said, I've not always been sure how to design choice into the activities in my classroom, especially when I'm using curriculum. Today we're talking with Drs. Zandra de Araujo and Amber Candela about some of the ways educators can design choice into their students' learning experiences.  Welcome back to the podcast, Zandra and Amber. It is really exciting to have you all with us today.  Zandra de Araujo: Glad to be back.  Amber Candela: Very excited to be here. Mike: So, I've heard you both talk at length about the importance of choice in students' learning experiences, and I wonder if we can start there. Before we talk about the ways you think teachers can design choice in a learning experience, can we just talk about the “why”? How would you describe the impact that choice has on students' learning experiences? Zandra: So, if you think about your own life, how fun would it be to never have a choice in what you get to do during a day? So, you don't get to choose what chores to do, where to go, what order to do things, who to work with, who to talk to. Schools are a very low-choice environment, and those tend to be punitive when you have a low-choice environment. And so, we don't want schools to be that way. We want them to be very free and open and empowering places. Amber: And a lot of times, especially in mathematics, students don't always enjoy being in that space. So, you can get more enjoyment, engagement, and if you have choice with how to engage with the content, you'll have more opportunity to be more curious and joyful and have hopefully better experiences in math. Zandra: And if you think about being able to choose things in your day makes you better able to make choices. And so, I think we want students to be smart consumers and users and creators of mathematics. And if you're never given choice or opportunity to kind of own it, I think that you're at a deficit. Amber: Also, if we want problem-solving people engaged in mathematics, it needs to be something that you view as something you were able to do. And so often we teach math like it's this pre-packaged thing, and it's just your role to memorize this thing that I give you. You don't feel like it's yours to play with. Choice offers more of those opportunities for kids. Zandra: Yeah, it feels like you're a consumer of something that's already made rather than somebody who's empowered to create and use and drive the mathematics that you're using, which would make it a lot more fun.  Mike: Yeah. You all are hitting on something that really clicked for me as I was listening to you talk. This idea that school, as it's designed oftentimes, is low choice. But math, in particular, where historically it has really been, “Let me show you what to do. Let me have you practice the way I showed you how to do it,” rinse and repeat. It's particularly important in math, it feels like, to break out and build a sense of choice for kids. Zandra: Absolutely. Mike: Well, one of the things that I appreciate about the work that both of you do is the way that you advocate for practices that are both really, really impactful and also eminently practical. And I'm wondering if we can dive right in and have you all share some of the ways that you think about designing choice into learning experiences.  Amber: I feel like I want “eminently practical” on a sticker for my laptop. Because I find that is a very satisfying and positive way to describe the work that I do because I do want it to be practical and doable within the constraints of schooling as it currently is, not as we wish it to be. Which, we do want it to be better and more empowering for students and teachers. But also, there are a lot of constraints that we have to work within. So, I appreciate that.  Zandra: I think that choice is meant to be a way of empowering students, but the goal for the instruction should come first. So, I'm going to talk about what I would want from my students in my classroom and then how we can build choice in. Because choice is kind of like the secondary component. So, first you have your learning goals, your aims as a teacher. And then, “How do we empower students with choice in service of that goal?” So, I'll start with number sense because that's a hot topic. I'm sure you all hear a lot about it at the MLC. Mike: We absolutely do. Zandra: So, one of the things I think about when teachers say, “Hey, can you help me think about number sense?” It's like, “Yes, I absolutely can.” So, our goal is number sense. So, let's think about what that means for students and how do we build some choice and autonomy into that. So, one of my favorite things is something like, “Give me an estimate, and we can Goldilocks it,” for example. So, it could be a word problem or just a symbolic problem and say, “OK, give me something that you know is either wildly high, wildly low, kind of close, kind of almost close but not right. So, give me an estimate, and it could be a wrong estimate or a close estimate, but you have to explain why.” So, it takes a lot of number sense to be able to do that. You have infinitely many options for an answer, but you have to avoid the one correct answer. So, you have to actually think about the one correct answer to give an estimate. Or if you're trying to give a close estimate, you're kind of using a lot of number sense to estimate the relationships between the numbers ahead of time. The choice comes in because you get to choose what kind of estimate you want. It's totally up to you. You just have to rationalize your idea. Mike: That's awesome. Amber, your turn. Amber: Yep. So related to that is a lot of math goes forward. We give kids the problem, and we want them to come up with the answer. A lot of the work that we've been doing is, “OK, if I give you the answer, can you undo the problem?” I'll go multiplication. So, we do a lot with, “What's seven times eight?” And there's one answer, and then kids are done. And you look for that answer as the teacher, and once that answer has been given, you're kind of like, “OK, here. I'm done with what I'm doing.” But instead, you could say, “Find me numbers whose product is 24.” Now you've opened up what it comes to. There's more access for students. They can come up with more than one solution, but it also gets kids to realize that math doesn't just go one way. It's not, “Here's the problem, find the answer.” It's “Here's the answer, find the problem.” And that also goes to the number sense. Because if students are able to go both ways, they have a better sense in their head around what they're doing and undoing. And you can do it with a lot of different problems. Zandra: And I'll just add in that that's not specific to us. Barb Dougherty had really nice article in, I think, Teaching Children Mathematics, about reversals at some point. And other people have shown this idea as well. So, we're really taking ideas that are really high uptake, we think, and sharing them again with teachers to make sure that they've seen ways that they can do it in their own classroom. Mike: What strikes me about both of these is, the structure is really interesting. But I also think about what the output looks like when you offer these kinds of choices. You're going to have a lot of kids doing things like justifying or using language to help make sense of the “why.” “Why is this one totally wrong, and why is this one kind of right?” And “Why is this close, but maybe not exact?” And to go to the piece where you're like, “Give me some numbers that I can multiply together to get to 24.” There's more of a conversation that comes out of that. There's a back and forth that starts to develop, and you can imagine that back and forth bouncing around with different kids rather than just kind of kid says, teacher validates, and then you're done. Zandra: Yeah, I think one of the cool things about choice is giving kids choice means that there's more variety and diversity of ideas coming in. And that's way more interesting to talk about and rationalize and justify and make sense of than a single correct answer or everybody's doing the same thing. So, I think, not only does it give kids more ownership, it has more access. But also, it just gives you way more interesting math to think and talk about. Mike: Let's keep going. Zandra: Awesome. So, I think another one, a lot of my work is with multilingual students. I really want them to talk. I want everybody to talk about math. So, this goes right to what you were just saying. So, one of the ways that we can easily say, “OK, we want more talk.” So how do we build that in through choice is to say, “Let's open up what you choose to share with the class.” So, there have been lots of studies done on the types of questions that teachers ask: tend to be closed, answer-focused, like single-calculation kind of questions. So, “What is the answer? Who got this?” You know, that kind of thing? Instead, you can give students choices, and I think a lot of teachers have done something akin to this with sentence starters or things. But you can also just say, instead of a sentence starter to say what your answer is, “I agree with X because of Y.” You can also say, “You can share an incorrect answer that you know is wrong because you did it, and it did not work out. You can also share where you got stuck because that's valuable information for the class to have.” You could also say, “I don't want to really share my thinking, my solution because it's not done, but I'll show you my diagram.” And so, “Let me show you a visual.” And just plop it up on the screen. So, there are a lot of different things you could share a question that you have because you're not sure, and it's just a related question. Instead of always sharing answers, let kids open up what they may choose to share, and you'll get more kids sharing. Because answers are kind of scary because you're expecting a correct answer often. And so, when you share and open up, then it's not as scary. And everybody has something to offer because they have a choice that speaks to them. Amber: And kids don't want to be wrong. People don't want to be wrong. “I don't want to give you a wrong answer.” And we went to the University of Georgia together, but Les Steffe always would say, “No child is ever wrong. They're giving you an answer with a purpose behind what that answer is. They don't actually believe that's a wrong answer that they're giving you.” And so, if you open up the space … And teachers say, “We want spaces to be safe, we want kids to want to come in and share.” But are we actually structuring spaces in that way? And so, some of the ideas that we're trying to come up with, we're saying that “We actually do value what you're saying when you choose to give us this. It's your choice of offering it up and you can say whatever it is you want to say around that,” but it's not as evaluative or as high stakes as trying to get the right answer and just like, “Am I right? Did I get it right?” And then what the teacher might say after that. Zandra: I would add on that kids do like to give wrong answers if that's what you're asking for. They don't like to give wrong answers if you're asking for a right one and they're accidentally wrong. So, I think back to my first suggestion: If you ask for a wrong answer and they know it's wrong, they're likely to chime right in because the right answer is the wrong answer, and there are multiple, infinite numbers of them. Mike: You know, it makes me think there's this set of ideas that we need to normalize mistakes as being productive things. And I absolutely agree with that. I also think that when you're asking for the right answer, it's really hard to kind of be like, “Oh, my mistake was so productive.” On the other hand, if you ask for an error or a place where someone's stuck, that just feels different. It feels like an invitation to say, “I've actually been thinking about this. I'm not there. I may be partly there. I'm still engaged. This is where I'm struggling.” That just feels different than providing an answer where you're just like, “Ugh.” I'm really struck by that. Zandra: Yeah, and I think it's a culture thing. So, a lot of teachers say to me that “it's hard to have kids work in groups because they kind of just tell each other the answers.” But they're modeling what they experience as learners in the classroom. “I often get told the answers,” that's the discourse that we have in the classroom. So, if you open up the discourse to include these things like, “Oh, I'm stuck here. I'm not sure where to go here.” They get practice saying, “Oh, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to go from here.” Instead of just going to the answer. And I think it'll spread to the group work as well. Mike: It feels like there's value for every other student in articulating, “I'm certain that this one is wrong, and here's why I know that.” There's information in there that is important for other kids. And even the idea of “I'm stuck here,” right? That's really a great formative assessment opportunity for the teacher. And it also might validate some of the other places where kids are like, “Yeah. Me, too.” Zandra: Uh-hm. Amber: Right, absolutely. Mike: What's next, my friend? Amber: I remember very clearly listening to Zandra present about choice, her idea of choice of feedback. And this was very powerful to me. I had never thought about asking my students how they wanted to receive the feedback I'd be giving them on the problems that they solved. And this idea of students being able to turn something in and then say, “This is how I'd like to receive feedback” or “This is the feedback I'd like to receive,” becomes very powerful because now they're the ones in charge of their own learning. And so much of what we do, kids should get to say, “This is how I think that I will grow better, is if you provide this to me.” And so, having that opportunity for students to say, “This is how I'll be a better learner if you give it to me in this way. And I think if you helped me with this part that would help the whole rest of it.” Or “I don't actually want you to tell me the answer. I am stuck here. I just need a little something to get me through. But please don't tell me what the answer is because I still want to figure it out for myself.” And so, allowing kids to advocate for themselves and teaching them how to advocate for themselves to be better learners; how to advocate for themselves to learn and think about “What I need to learn this material and be a student or be a learner in society” will just ultimately help students. Zandra: Yeah, I think as a student, I don't like to be told the answers. I like to figure things out, and I will puzzle through something for a long time. But sometimes I just want a model or a hint that'll get me on the right path, and that's all I need. But I don't want you to do the problem for me or take over my thinking. If somebody asked me, “What do you want?” I might say like, “Oh, a model problem or something like that.” But I don't think we ask kids a lot. We just do whatever we think as an adult. Which is different, because we're not learning it for the first time. We already know what it is. Mike: You're making me think about the range of possibilities in a situation like that. One is I could notice a student who is working through something and just jump in and take over and do the problem for them essentially and say, “Here, this is how you do it.” Or I guess just let them go, let them continue to work through it. But potentially there could be some struggle, and there might be some frustration. I am really kind of struck by the fact that I wonder how many of us as teachers have really thought about the kinds of options that exist between those two far ends of the continuum. What are the things that we could offer to students rather than just “Let me take over” or productive struggle, but perhaps it's starting to feel unproductive? Does that make sense? Zandra: Yeah, I think it does. I mean, there are so many different ways. I would ask teachers to re-center themselves as the learner that's getting feedback. So, if you have a principal or a coach coming into your room, they've watched a lesson, sometimes you're like, “Oh, that didn't go well. I don't need feedback on that. I know it didn't go well, and I could do better.” But I wonder if you have other things that you notice just being able to take away a part that you know didn't go well. And you're like, “Yep, I know that didn't go well. I have ideas for improving it. I don't really want to focus on that. I want to focus on this other thing.” Or “I've been working really hard on discourse. I really want feedback on the student discourse when you come in.” That's really valuable to be able to steer it—not taking away the other things that you might notice, but really focusing in on something that you've been working on is pretty valuable. And I think kids often have these things that maybe they haven't really thought about a lot, but when you ask them, they might think about it. And they might grow this repertoire of things that they're kind of working on personally. Amber: Yeah, and I just think it's getting at, again, we want students to come out of situations where they can say, “This is how I learn” or “This is how I can grow,” or “This is how I can appreciate math better.” And by allowing them to say, “It'd be really helpful if you just gave me some feedback right here” or “I'm trying to make this argument, and I'm not sure it's coming across clear enough,” or “I'm trying to make this generalization, does it generalize?” We're also maybe talking about some upper-level kids, but I still think we can teach elementary students to advocate for themselves also. Like, “Hey, I try this method all the time. I really want to try this other method. How am I doing with this? I tried it. It didn't really seem to work, but where did I make a mistake? Could you help me out with that? Because I think I want to try this method instead.” And so, I think there are different ways that students can allow for that. And they can say: “I know this answer is wrong. I'm not sure how this answer is wrong. Could you please help me understand my thinking or how could I go back and think about my thinking?” Zandra: Yeah. And I think when you said upper level, you meant upper grades. Amber: Yes. Zandra: I assume.  Amber: Yes.  Zandra: OK, yeah. So, for the lower-grade-level students, too, you can still use this. They still have ideas about how they learn and what you might want to follow up on with them. “Was there an easier way to do this? I did all these hand calculations and stuff. Was there an easier way?” That's a good question to ask. Maybe they've thought about that, and they were like, “That was a lot of work. Maybe there was an easier way that I just didn't see?” That'd be pretty cool if a kid asked you that. Mike: Or even just hearing a kid say something like, “I feel really OK. I feel like I had a strategy. And then I got to this point, and I was like, ‘Something's not working.'” Just being able to say, “This particular place, can you help me think about this?” That's the kind of problem-solving behavior that we ultimately are trying to build in kids, whether it's math or just life. Amber: Right, exactly. And I need, if I want kids to be able … because people say, “I sometimes just want a kid to ask a question.” Well, we do need to give them choice of the question they ask. And that's where a lot of this comes from is, what is your goal as a teacher? What do you want kids to have choice in? If I want you to have choice of feedback, I'm going to give you ideas for what that feedback could be, so then you have something to choose from. Mike: OK, so we've unpacked quite a few ideas in the last bit. I wonder if there are any caveats or any guidance that you would offer to someone who's listening who is maybe thinking about taking up some of these practices in their classroom? Zandra: Oh, yeah. I have a lot. Kids are not necessarily used to having a lot of choice and autonomy. So, you might have to be gentle building it in because it's overwhelming. And they actually might just say, “Just tell me what to do,” because they're not used to it. It's like when you're get a new teacher and they're really into explaining your thinking, and you've never had to do that. Well, you've had 10 years of schooling or however many years of schooling that didn't involve explaining your thinking, and now, all of a sudden, “I'm supposed to explain my thinking. I don't even know what that means. What does that look like? We never had to do that before.”  So maybe start small and think about some things like, “Oh, you can choose a tool or two that helps you with this problem. So, you can use a multiplication table, or you can use a calculator or something to use. You can choose. There are all these things out. You can choose a couple of tools that might help you.” But start small. And you can give too many choices. There's like choice overload. It's like when I go on Amazon, and there are way too many reviews that I have to read for a product, and I never end up buying anything because I've read so many reviews. It's kind of like that. It could get overwhelming. So purposeful, manageable numbers of choices to start out with is a good suggestion. Amber: And also, just going back to what Zandra said in the beginning, is making sure you have a purpose for the choice. And so, if you just are like, “Oh, I'm having choice for choice's sake.” Well, what is that doing? Is that supporting the learning, the mathematics, the number sense, the conceptual understanding, and all of that? And so, have that purpose going in and making sure that the choices backtrack to that purpose. Zandra: Yeah. And you could do a little choice inventory. You could be like, “Huh, if I was a student of my own class today, what would I have gotten to choose? If anything? Did I get to choose where I sat, what utensil I used? What type of paper did I use? Which problems that I did?” Because that's a good one. All these things. And if there's no choice in there, maybe start with one. Mike: I really love that idea of a “choice inventory.” Because I think there's something about really kind of walking through a particular day or a particular lesson that you're planning or that you've enacted, and really thinking about it from that perspective. That's intriguing. Zandra: Yeah, because really, I think once you're aware of how little choice kids get in a day … As an adult learner, who has presumably a longer attention span and more tolerance and really likes math, I've spent my whole life studying it. If I got so little choice and options in what I did, I would not be a well-behaved, engaged student. And I think we need to remember that when we're talking about little children. Mike: So, last question, is there research in the field or researchers who have done work that has informed the kind of thinking that you have about choice? Zandra: Yeah, I think we're always inspired by people who come before us, so it's probably an amalgamation of different things. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I read a lot of books on behavioral economics and all kinds of different things. So, I think a lot of those ideas bleed into the work in math education. In terms of math education, in particular, there have been a lot of people who have really influenced me, like Marian Small's work with parallel tasks and things like that. I think that's a beautiful example of choice. You give multiple options for choice of challenge and see which ones the students feel like is appropriate instead of assigning them competence ahead of time. So, that kind of work has really influenced me. Amber: And then just, our team really coming together; Sam Otten and Zandra and their ideas and collaborating together. And like you mentioned earlier, that Barb Dougherty article on the different types of questions has really been impactful. More about opening up questions, but it does help you think about choice a little bit better. Mike: I think this is a great place to stop. Zandra, Amber, thank you so much for a really eye-opening conversation. Zandra: Thank you for having us.  Amber: Thanks for having us. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

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Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 14 – Three Resources to Support Multilingual Learners Guest: Dr. Erin Turner Mike Wallus: Many resources for supporting multilingual learners are included with curriculum materials. What's too often missing though is clear guidance for how to use them. In this episode, we're going to talk with Dr. Erin Turner about three resources that are often recommended for supporting multilingual learners. We'll unpack the purpose for each resource and offer a vision for how to put them to good use with your students.  Mike: Well, welcome to the podcast, Erin. We are excited to be chatting with you today.  Erin Turner: Thank you so much for inviting me.  Mike: So, for our listeners, the starting point for this episode was a conversation that you and I had not too long ago, and we were talking about the difference between having a set of resources which might come with a curriculum and having a sense of how to use them. And in this case, we were talking about resources designed to support multilingual learners. So, today we're going to talk through three resources that are often recommended for supporting multilingual learners, and we're going to really dig in and try to unpack the purpose and offer a vision for how to put them to use with students. What do you think? Are you ready to get started, Erin?  Erin: I am.  Mike: Well, one of the resources that often shows up in curriculum are what are often referred to as sentence frames or sentence stems. So, let's start by talking about what these resources are and what purpose they might serve for multilingual learners.  Erin: Great. So, a sentence stem, or sometimes it's called a sentence starter, this is a phrase that gives students a starting place for an explanation. So, often it includes three or four words that are the beginning part of a sentence, and it's followed by a blank that students can complete with their own ideas. And a sentence frame is really similar. A sentence frame just typically is a complete sentence that includes one or more blanks that again, students can fill in with their ideas. And in both cases, these resources are most effective for all students who are working on explaining their ideas, when they're flexible and open-ended. So, you always want to ensure that a sentence stem or a sentence frame has multiple possible ways that students could insert their own ideas, their own phrasing, their own solutions to complete the sentence. The goal is always for the sentence frame to be generative and to support students' production and use of language—and never to be constraining.  Erin: So, students shouldn't feel like there's one word or one answer or one correct or even intended way to complete the frame. It should always feel more open-ended and flexible and generative. For multilingual learners, one of the goals of sentence stems is that the tool puts into place for students some of the grammatical and linguistic structures that can get them started in their talk so that students don't have to worry so much about, “What do I say first?” or “What grammatical structures should I use?” And they can focus more on the content of the idea that they want to communicate. So, the sentence starter is just getting the child talking. It gives them the first three words that they can use to start explaining their idea, and then they can finish using their own insights, their own strategies, their own retellings of a solution, for example.  Mike: Can you share an example of a sentence frame or a sentence stem to help people understand them if this is new to folks?  Erin: Absolutely. So, let's say that we're doing number talks with young children, and in this particular number talk, children are adding two-digit numbers. And so, they're describing the different strategies that they might use to do either a mental math addition of two-digit numbers, or perhaps they've done a strategy on paper. You might think about the potential strategies that students would want to explain and think about sentence frames that would mirror or support the language that children might use. So, a frame that includes blanks might be something like, “I broke apart (blank) into (blank) and (blank).” If you think students are using 10s and 1s strategies, where they're decomposing numbers into 10s and 1s. Or if you think students might be working with open number lines and making jumps, you might offer a frame like, “I started at (blank), then I (blank),” which is a really flexible frame and could allow children to describe ways that they counted on on a number line or made jumps of a particular increment or something else. The idea again is for the sentence frame to be as flexible as possible. You can even have more flexible frames that imply a sequence of steps but don't necessarily frame a specific strategy. So, something like, “First I (blank), then I (blank)” or “I got my answer by (blank).” Those can be frames that children can use for all different kinds of operations or work with tools or representations.  Mike: OK, that sets up my next question. What I think is interesting about what you shared is there might be some created sentence frames or sentence stems that show up with the curricular materials I have, but as an educator, I could actually create my own sentence frames or sentence stems that align with either the strategies that my kids are investigating or would support some of the ideas that I'm trying to draw out in the work that we're doing. Am I making sense of that correctly?  Erin: Absolutely. So many curricula do include sample sentence frames, and they may support your students. But you can always create your own. And one place that I really like to start is by listening to the language that children are already using in the classroom because you want the sentence starters or the sentence frames to feel familiar to students. And by that, I mean you want them to be able to see their own ideas populating the sentence frames so that they can own the language and start to take it up as part of the repertoire of how they speak and communicate their ideas. So, if you have a practice in your classroom, for example, where children share ideas and maybe on chart paper or on the whiteboard you note down phrases from their explanations—perhaps labeled with their name so that we can keep track of who's sharing which idea—you could look across those notations and just start to notice the language that children are already using to explain their strategies and take that as a starting point for the sentence frames that you create. And that really honors children's contributions. It honors their natural ways of talking, and it makes it more likely that children will take up the frames as a tool or a resource.  Mike: Again, I just want to say, I'm so glad you mentioned this. In my mind, a sentence frame or a sentence stem was a tool that came to me with my curriculum materials, and I don't know that I understood that I have agency and that I could listen to kids' thinking and use that to help design my own sentence frames. One question that comes to mind is, do you have any guardrails or cautions in terms of creating them that would either support kids' language or that could inadvertently make it more challenging?  Erin: So, I'll start with some cautions. One way that I really like to think about sentence frames is that they are resources that we offer children, and I'm using “offer” here really strategically. They're designed to support children's use of language. And when they're not supportive, when children feel like it's harder to use the frame to explain their idea because the way they want to communicate something, the way they want to phrase something doesn't fit into the frame that we've offered, then it's not a useful support. And then it can become a frustrating experience for the child as the child's trying to morph or shape their ideas, which makes sense to them, into a structure that may not make sense. And so, I really think we want to take this idea of offering and not requiring frames really seriously.  Erin: The other caution that I would offer is that frames are not overly complex. And by that, I mean if we start to construct frames with multiple blanks where it becomes more about trying to figure out the teacher's intention and children are thinking, “What word would I put here? What should I insert into this blank?” Then we've lost the purpose. The purpose is to support generative language and to help children communicate their ideas, not to play guessing games with children where they're trying to figure out what we intend for them to fill in. This isn't necessarily a caution, but maybe just a strategy for thinking about whether or not sentence frames could be productive for students in your classroom— particularly for multilingual learners—is to think about multiple ways that they might complete the sentence stem or that they might fill in the sentence frame. And if as a teacher we can't readily come up with four or five different ways that they could populate that frame, chances are it's too constraining and it's not open-ended enough.  Erin: And you might want to take a step back toward a more open-ended or flexible frame. Because you want it to be something that the children can readily complete in varied ways using a range of ideas or strategies. So, something that I think can be really powerful about sentence frames is the way that they position students. For example, when we offer frames like, “I discovered that…” or “I knew my answer was reasonable because…” or “A connection I can make is… .” Those are all sentence starters. The language in those sentence starters communicates something really powerful to multilingual learners and to any student in our classroom. And that's that we assume as a teacher that they're capable of making connections, that they're capable of deciding for themselves if their answer is reasonable, that they're capable of making discoveries. So, the verbs we choose in our sentence frames are really important because of how they position children as competent, as mathematical thinkers, as people with mathematical agency.  Erin: So, sometimes we want to be really purposeful in the language that we choose because of the way that it positions students. Another kind of positioning to think about is that multilingual learners may have questions about things in math class. They may not have clarity about the meaning of a phrase or the meaning of a concept, and that's really true of all students. But we can use sentence frames to normalize those moments of uncertainty or struggle for students. So, at the end of a number talk or at the end of a strategy sharing session, we can offer a sentence frame like, “I had a question about…” or “Something I'm still not sure of is … .” And we can invite children to turn and talk to a partner and to finish that sentence frame. Erin: That's offering students language to talk about things that they might have questions about, that they might be uncertain about. And it's communicating to all kids that that's an important part of mathematics learning—that everyone has questions. It's not just particular students in the classroom. Everyone has moments of uncertainty. And so, I think it's really important that when we offer these frames to students in our classrooms, they're not positioned as something that some students might need, but they're positioned as tools and resources that all students can benefit from. We all can benefit from an example of a reflection. We all can learn new ways to talk about our ideas. We all can learn new ways to talk about our confusions, and that's not limited to the children that are learning the language of instruction. Otherwise, sentence frames become something that has low status in the classroom or is associated with students [who] might need extra help. And they aren't taken up by children if they're positioned in that way, at least not as effectively.  Mike: The comparison that comes to mind is the ways that in the past manipulatives have been positioned as something that's lower status, right? If you're using them, it means something. Typically, at least in the past, it was something not good. Whereas I hope as a field we've gotten to the place where we think about manipulatives as a tool for kids to help express their thinking and understand and make meaning, and that we're communicating that in our classrooms as well. So, I'm wondering if you can spend just a few minutes, Erin, talking about how an educator might introduce sentence frames or sentence stems and perhaps a little bit about the types of routines that keep them alive in the classroom.  Erin: Yes, thanks for this question. One thing that I found to be really flexible is to start with open-ended sentence frames or sentence stems that can be useful as an attachment or as an enhancement to a routine that children already know. So, just as an example, many teachers use an “I notice, I wonder”- or “We know, we wonder”-type of routine. Those naturally lend themselves to sentence starters. “I notice (blank), I wonder (blank).” Similarly, teachers may be already using a same and different routine in their classroom. You can add or layer a sentence frame onto that routine, and then that frame becomes a tool that can support students' communication in that routine. So, “These are the same because… .” “These are different because… .” And once students are comfortable and they're using sentence frames in those sorts of familiar routines, a next step can be introducing sentence frames that allow children to explain their own thinking or their own strategies.  Erin: And so, we can introduce sentence frames that map onto the strategies that children might use in number talks. We can introduce sentence frames that can support communication around problem-solving strategies. And those can be either really open-ended like, “First…, then I…”-type frames or frames that sort of reflect or represent particular strategies. In every case, it's really important that the teacher introduces the frame or the sentence starter in a whole group. And this can be done in a couple of ways. You can [chorally] read the frame so that all children have a chance to hear what it sounds like to say that frame. And as a teacher, you can model using the frame to describe a particular idea. One thing that I've seen teachers do really effectively is when children are sharing their strategy, teachers often revoice or restate children's strategies sometimes just to amplify it for the rest of the class or to clarify a particular idea.  Erin: As part of that revoicing, as teachers we can model using a sentence frame to describe the idea. So, we could say something like, “Oh, Julio just told us that he decomposed (blank) into two 10s and three 1s,” and we can reference the sentence frame on the board or in another visible place in the classroom so that children are connecting that mathematical idea to potential language that might help them communicate that idea. And that may or may not benefit Julio, the child [who] just shared. But it can benefit other children in the classroom [who] might have solved the problem or have thought about the problem in a similar way but may not yet be connecting their strategy with possible language to describe their strategy. So, by modeling those connections as a teacher, we can help children see how their own ideas might fit into some of these sentence frames. Erin: We also can pose sentence frames as tool to practice in a partner conversation. So, for example, if children are turning and talking during a number talk and they're sharing their strategy, we can invite children to practice using one of two sentence frames to explain their ideas to a partner. And after that turn and talk moment, we can have a couple of children in the class volunteer their possible ways to complete the sentence frame for the whole group. So, it just gives us examples of what a sentence frame might sound like in relation to an authentic activity. In this case, explaining our thinking about a number talk. And that sort of partner practice or partner rehearsal is really, really important because it gives children the chance to try out a new frame or a new sentence starter in a really low-stress context, just sharing their idea with one other peer, before they might try that out in a whole-class discussion.  Mike: That's really helpful, Erin. I think one of the things that jumps out for me is, when you initially started talking about this, you talked about attaching it to a routine that kids already have a sense of like, “I notice” or “I wonder” or “What's the same?” or “What's different?” And what strikes me is that those are routines that all kids participate in. So again, we're not positioning the resource or the tool of the sentence frame or the sentence starter as only for a particular group of children. They actually benefit all kids. It's positioned as a normal practice that makes sense for everybody to take up.  Erin: Absolutely. And I think we need to position them as ways to enhance things in classrooms for all students. And partner talk is another good example. We often send students off to talk with a partner and give them instructions like, “Go tell your partner how you solve the problem.” And many children aren't quite sure what that conversation looks like or sounds like, even children for whom English is their first language. And so, when we offer sentence frames to guide those interactions, we're offering a support or a potential support for all students. So, for partner talk, we often not only ask kids to explain their thinking, but we say things like, “Oh, and ask your partner questions.” “Find out more about your partner's ideas.” And that can be challenging for 7- and 8-year-olds. So, if we offer sentence frames that are in the form of questions, we can help scaffold those conversations.  Erin: So, things like, “Can you say more about?” or “I have a question about?” or “How did you know to?” If we want children asking each other questions, we need to often offer them supports or give them tools to support that conversation. And that helps them to learn from each other. It helps them to listen to each other, which we know benefits them in multiple ways. And I just want to share one final example about sentence frames that I think is so powerful. There are really different purposes for frames. They can be about reflection. They can be about asking questions of partners. We can use sentence frames to agree and disagree, to compare and contrast. Erin: One teacher that I've worked with uses sentence frames to guide end-of-lesson reflections. And after children have talked to a partner or shared ideas with a partner, she asked them to complete sentence frames that sound like this: “One thing I learned from my partner today is (blank).” Or “A new idea I got from my partner today was (blank).” And what I love about this is, it positions all kids as having valuable ideas, valuable contributions to offer the class. And if I'm in a partnership with a multilingual learner, I'm thinking deeply about what I learned from that partner, and I'm sharing with the teacher orally or in writing and sharing with the class what I learned from that child. And so, the sentence frame helps me because it gives me a support to think about that idea and to express that idea, but it really helps elevate other children in the classroom who might not always be seen in that way by their peers. So, I think there are just really powerful ways that, that we can use these tools.  Mike: I love that. I'm wondering if we can shift now to a different kind of resource, and this one might be a little less obvious. What we were talking about when we had this conversation earlier was the use of a repeated context across a series of lessons and the extent to which that, in itself, can actually be really supportive of multilingual learners. So, I'm wondering if we can talk about an example and share the ways that this might offer support to students?  Erin: Perfect. So, repeated contexts are wonderful because they offer a rich, really complex space for students to start thinking mathematically, for them to pose questions of their own, and for them to make mathematical observations and solve problems. And the benefit of a repeated context or a context that sort of returns over a sequence of lessons or even across a sequence of units, is that children can start to inhabit the story in the context. They start to learn who the characters are. They learn about the important features of the context, perhaps locations or objects in the context or relationships or key quantities. And every time that that context is reintroduced, the sense-making that they've done previously is a really powerful starting point for the new mathematical ideas that they can explore. And these repeated contexts are especially powerful when they're introduced with multiple supports. So, for multilingual learners, if we can introduce context with narrative stories, with pictures or images, with videos, with physical artifacts, whatever we can do to give children a sense of this, in most cases, imaginary worlds that we're creating, we support their sense-making.  Erin: And this is really different from curricula or programs that offer a new context with each word problem. Or perhaps with each page in a student book, there's a new context introduced. And for multilingual learners and really for all students, every time we introduce a new context, we have to make sense of what's happening in this story. What's happening in the situation? Who are the people? What does this new word mean that I haven't encountered before? And so, we limit our time to really think deeply about the mathematical ideas because we're repeating this space of sense-making around the context. And in classrooms we often don't have that time to unpack context. And so, what happens when we use new contexts every time is that we tend to fast track the sense-making, and children can start to develop all sorts of unproductive ways to dig into problems like looking for a particular word that they think means a particular operation because we just don't give them the time and space to really make sense of the story. And so, because we have this limited time in classrooms, when we can reintroduce context, it really offers that space to students.  Mike: Do you have an example that might help illustrate the point?  Erin: Absolutely. So, in second-grade curriculum that I have reviewed, there's a context around a character, “Jesse and [the] Beanstalk.” It's sort of an adaptation of the classic tale of “Jack and the Beanstalk.” And in this story, Jesse has beans that he gets from an interaction or a sale in a farmers market. And these beans, of course, grow into a giant beanstalk that has a friendly giant that lives at the top. And this beanstalk produces large, giant beans, which have all kinds of seeds inside of them. And this context is used over a series of units. It actually spans most of the school year to give children an opportunity to explore multiple mathematical ideas. So, they make representations of these giant beans with strips of paper, and they use cubes to measure the beans. So, they're looking at linear measurement concepts. They compare the length of different beans, so they're doing addition and subtraction to compare quantities. They find out how many seeds are inside of the beans, and they add those quantities together. So, they're doing all sorts of multi-digit operations, adding the beans. Erin: And then the context further develops into making bracelets with the seeds that are inside these bean pods, and they group these seeds in groups of 10. So, they have the chance to think about, “How many 10s can we make out of a larger quantity?” Later on, their bracelet-making business expands, and they have to think about how to package these seeds into 100s, 10s, and ones. So, it's a really rich context that develops over time. And children begin to learn about the people in the story, about the activities and the practices that they engage in, and they have the chance to ask their own questions about their story and to make their own connections, which is really powerful. As the story develops, you can see how children develop a sense of curiosity about what's happening, and they become invested in these stories, which really supports the mathematical work.  Mike: So, I want to walk back to our friend Jesse, and I'm glad to hear it's a friendly giant in this particular case. What you were making me think about as you were talking is the way that we introduce the context probably is really important. Could you shed some light on how you think about introducing a context?  Erin: So, asking children to share connections that they can make is really important. When we introduce context with different representations, it's really important to ask children to make connections as a place to start. So, we want to ask them what they already know about this context in particular, or similar context. What connections can they make to their own experiences? We want to ask them to share what they wonder about the context, what they're curious about, what they notice, what observations they can make. And when we have different representations like a story and a picture or a video or an artifact, we give children more possibilities for making those kinds of connections. One thing that we can also do to really support children's connections to the context is, as a context develops over time, we can create anchor charts or other written records with children that represent their perspectives on the key features of the context.  Erin: So, for example, if we go back to “Jesse and the Beanstalk,” after solving a couple of problems about “Jesse and the Beanstalk” and being introduced to that story, we can pause and talk with children about what they see as key aspects of this story. What are things they want to remember? When we come back to Jesse in a few weeks, who are the people [who] we want to remember in this story? What are some important quantities in this story? What are some other important features of this story? And this is not an anchor chart that we create ahead of time as teachers. It's really important that children own these ideas and that they get to start to identify the key quantities, the key features of the situation from their perspective, because then that can become a resource for their thinking later on. We don't have to re-explain the context completely every time. We can refer to these written records that we've co-created with children.  Mike: Well, let's close by talking about one more resource that educators will often find in their curriculum materials. Things like lists of academic vocabulary, or perhaps even cards with vocabulary words printed on them. I wonder how you think educators should understand the value of these particular resources.  Erin: These vocabulary cards can take the form of cards that can be inserted into a chart or even anchor charts themselves. And one thing that I think that's really important, especially when we're thinking about using this tool with multilingual learners, is that these include multiple representations of a concept. We always need to make sure that the cards include a picture or a diagram or a visual image of the term, in addition to an example of how the term can be used. So, that might be a phrase, it might be a symbolic representation of the term. It might be a whole sentence that uses the word to give children an idea of how to use the language in context, which is really important. And one thing that I've seen teachers do really effectively is to create large vocabulary cards with blank space, so that as these cards are introduced in the context of a lesson or activity when they would be relevant, children have the opportunity to share their own ideas about the term.  Erin: And that blank space on the card can be filled with connections that children make. So, children might know that term in another language. That can be added to the vocabulary card. Children might connect that term to another similar idea mathematically or a similar idea in daily life. So, they might know another meaning of the word. That can be added to this blank space so that it becomes a shared and collaboratively generated artifact and not just a static card on the wall of the classroom that is beautiful, but that children may not really use to support their sense-making. So, co-creating these cards with children I've seen to be really powerful, especially if we want them to be used by children and owned by children. And that leaving blank space can help with that.  Mike: So, you're taking this conversation to a place I hoped we might go, which is just to help paint a picture of what it might look like for a teacher to introduce this resource, but then also sustain it, how to bring it to life in the classroom. What does that look like? Or maybe what does that sound like, Erin?  Erin: So, I think when vocabulary card is first introduced, just like with many things in math classrooms, we want children to share what they already know. So, what does this word make you think of? Where do you see this word? Where have you heard this word? What are some other things we've done together in our mathematical work that relate to this word? You want children to share versions of the word in other languages. You want them to share real-world context, connections, anything that they can to connect to their experiences. And it's important that we introduce small sets of words at a time. So, if we're working on a unit on multiplication, we might have words related to “factor” and “multiple” and “products” that become additions to our word wall or to our anchor charts. And that we encourage children to use those words in particular activities in those units.  Erin: So, for example, if we're doing a number talk as part of a unit on multiplication, we might remind children of particular words that have been introduced in prior lessons and encourage them to try to take up those words in their explanations. “See if you can use the word ‘factor' today as you're sharing your strategy with a partner.” “See if you can use the word ‘product' today.” And then invite children to share examples of what that sounded like in their partner talk. Or what that looked like when they were writing about their explanation. And it's these constant invitations or repeated invitations that really make these words come to life in classrooms so that they don't just live on the wall. It's also really important that these words are highly visible and accessible for students. So, oftentimes teachers will display key vocabulary words alongside a whiteboard or underneath a whiteboard. Or children might have their own copy of a small set of keywords that they're working on to paste inside of their notebooks. If they're not highly accessible, it really limits children's opportunities to use them on a regular basis.  Erin: So, another way to introduce new vocabulary terms or to support students to use them in context is to connect specific words to a routine that is already in place in your classroom. So, one of my favorites for its potential to help kids use new vocabulary is a routine like, “Which One Doesn't Belong?” But same and different routines that many teachers use also work great for this reason. So, just as an example, if we're doing a “Which One Doesn't Belong?” routine, and the four images that we're using are geometric shapes, we might be able to come up with a list of vocabulary words that would help children describe their decisions about which of the shapes doesn't belong. And we could locate those words alongside our whiteboard or in a visible place in the classroom and just invite children as you're deciding which shape doesn't belong, as you're thinking about how you're going to explain your decision to your partner, think about how you could use some of these words. So, we could have words that describe different kinds of angles or other properties of shapes depending on what we're working on in the curriculum. But that's a way to show children the relevance of particular terms in a routine that they're familiar with and that they're engaged in in the classroom. And that's a way to keep these terms alive.  Mike: That's the thing that I really appreciate about what you just shared, Erin. If I'm autobiographical and I think back to my own practice, I recognize the value, and I aspired for these things to be useful. What you did just now is help paint a picture of what it looks like, not just to introduce the language or support the language, but also to keep these alive in classroom practice. I did have a question that occurred to me. Similar to sentence frames and sentence stems, is there any kind of caution that you would offer when people think about using these?  Erin: Definitely. For me, the most important caution is to not overemphasize formal mathematical vocabulary in classrooms, particularly for multilingual learners. Obviously, we want children to be developing mathematical language, and that's something we want for all children. But if we overemphasize the use of formal terminology, that can constrain communication for students who are developing the language. And we never want students' lack of familiarity or their lack of comfort with a particular vocabulary term to stop their communication or to hinder their communication. We would much rather have children explaining their ideas using all sorts of informal language and gestures and reference to physical models. The important thing is the idea and that children have the opportunity to communicate those ideas. And this formal mathematical language that might be represented in vocabulary cards or on anchor charts will come. It's part of the process, but they most importantly need opportunities to communicate their ideas.  Mike: Well, this has been a really enlightening conversation, Erin, and I'm wondering if before we go, if you have any particular recommendations for educators who are looking to build on what they heard today and continue to take up new ideas of how to support their multilingual learners?  Erin: There's a wonderful set of resources out of the Understanding Language Project at Stanford University, and they have a number of math language routines designed to support multilingual students. Some of them are related to introducing context, which we talked about today. They have a version of a “Three Reads” routine for introducing new contexts that people might find useful. But there's a whole collection of language routines on their website that teachers might find really useful. I always go to TODOS as one of my most meaningful resources for thinking deeply and critically about supporting multilingual learners.  Erin: So, I think that site and all of the books and the journals and the conferences that they develop should definitely be included. And many of the other colleagues that you've had on the podcast have wonderful resources to share, too. So, I think I would start with those two.  Mike: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Erin. It really has been a pleasure talking with you.  Erin: Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you again for inviting me.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 6 – Multiplicative Thinking Guest: Dr. Anderson Norton   Mike Wallus: One of the most important shifts in students' thinking during their elementary years is also one of the least talked about. I'm talking about the shift from additive to multiplicative thinking. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, I suspect you're not alone. Today we talk with Dr. Anderson Norton about this important but underappreciated shift.  Mike: Welcome to the podcast, Andy. I'm excited to talk with you about additive and multiplicative thinking. Andy Norton: Oh, thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I love talking about that. Mike: So, I want to start with a basic question. When we're talking about additive and multiplicative thinking, are we just talking about strategies or operations that students would carry out to find a sum or a product of a problem? Or are we talking about something larger? Andy: Yeah, definitely something larger, and it doesn't come down to strategies. Students can solve multiplication tasks, what to us look like multiplication tasks, using additive reasoning. And they often do, I think, they get through a lot of elementary school using, for example, repeated edition. If I gave a task like what is four times five? Then they might just say that's five and five and five and five, which is fine. They're solving a multiplication problem, but their method for solving it is repeated addition, so it's basically additive reasoning. But it starts to catch up to them in later grades where that kind of additive reasoning requires them to do more and more sophisticated or complicated strategies that maybe their teachers can teach them, but it starts to add up, especially when they get to fractions or algebra. Mike: So, let's dig into this a little bit deeper. How would you describe the difference between additive and multiplicative thinking? And I'm wondering if there's an example of the differences in how a student might approach a task or a problem that could maybe highlight that distinction. Andy: The main distinction is with additive reasoning, you're working within one level of unit. So, for example, if I want to know, and going back to that four times five example, really what I'm doing is I'm working with ones. So, I say I have five ones and five ones and five ones and five ones, and that's 20 ones. But in a multiplication problem, you're really transforming across units. If I want to understand four times five as a multiplication problem, what I'm saying is, “If I measure a quantity with a unit of five, the measure is four,” just to make it a little more concrete. Suppose my unit of measure is like a stick that's 5 feet long, and then I say, “OK, I measured this length, and it was four of these sticks. So, it's four of these 5-foot sticks. But I want to know what it is in just feet.” So, I've changed my unit. I'm saying, “I measured this thing in one unit, this stick length, but I want to understand its measure in a different unit, a unit of ones.” So, you're transforming between this one kind of unit into another kind of unit, and it's a five-to-one transformation. So, I'm not just doing five plus five plus five plus five, I'm saying every one of that stick length contains 5 feet, five of these 1-foot measures. And so, it's a transformation from one unit into another, one unit for measuring into a different unit for measuring. Mike: I mean, that's a really big shift, and I'm glad that you were able to describe that with a practical example, that someone could listen to this and visualize. I think understanding that for me clarifies the importance of not thinking about this in terms of just procedural steps that kids would take to either add or multiply; that really there's a transformation in how kids are thinking about what's happening rather than just the steps that they're following. Andy: Yeah, that's right. And a lot of times as teachers or even as researchers studying children, we're frustrated like the kids are when they're solving tasks, when they're struggling. And so we try to give them those procedures. We might give them a visual model, we might give them an array model for multiplication, which can solve a lot of problems. You just sort of think about things going vertically and things going horizontally, and then you're looking at an area or a number of intersections. So, that makes it possible for them to solve these individual tasks. And there's a lot of pressure on teachers to cover curriculum. So, we feel like we have to support them by giving them these strategies. But in the end, it just becomes more and more of these complicated strategies without really necessitating the need for something we might call a “productive struggle”; that is, where students can actually start to go through developmental changes by allowing them to struggle so that they actually develop these kinds of multiplicative structures instead of just giving them a bunch of strategies for dealing with that one task at a time. Mike: I'm wondering if you might share some examples of what multiplicative thinking might look like or sound like in different scenarios. For example, with whole numbers, with fractions or decimals …  Andy: Uh-hm. Mike: … and perhaps even in a context like measurement. What might an educator who was listening or observing students' work, what might they see that would indicate to them that multiplicative reasoning or multiplicative thinking was something that was happening for the student? Andy: So, it really is that sort of transformation of units. Like imagine, I know something is nine-fifths, and nine-fifths doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless I can think about it as nine units of one-fifth. We have to think about it as a measure like it's nine of one-fifth. And then I have to somehow compare that to, OK, it's nine of this one unit, this one-fifth unit, but what is it of a whole unit? A unit of one? So, having an estimate for how big nine-fifths is, yes, it's nine units of one-fifth. But at the same time, I want to know how big that is relative to a one. So, there's this multiplicative nature kind of built into tasks like that, and it's one explanation for why students struggle so much with improper fractions. Mike: So, I'm going to put my teacher hat on for a second because what you've got me thinking is, what are the types of tasks or experiences or even questions that an educator could put in front of students that would nudge them to make this shift without potentially pushing them to a place where they're not quite ready to go yet?  Andy: Hmm. Mike: Could you talk a little bit about what types of tasks or experiences or questions might help provide a little bit of that nudge? Andy: Yeah, that's a really good question, because it goes back to this idea that students are already solving the kinds of tasks that should involve multiplicative reasoning, but they might be using additive strategies to do it. Those strategies get more and more complicated, and we as teachers facilitate students just, sort of, doing something more procedural instead of really struggling with the issue. And what the issue should be is opportunities to work with multiple levels of units and then to reflect on their activity and working with them. So, for example, one task I like to give students is, I'll cut out a piece of construction paper and I'll hand it to the student, and I'll have hidden what I'm going to label a whole, and I'll have hidden what I'm going to label to be the unit fraction that might be appropriate for measuring this thing I gave them. So, I'll give them this piece of construction paper and I'll say, “Hey, this is five-sevenths of my whole.” Now what I've given them as a rectangular strip of paper without any partitions in it, I've hidden the whole from which I created this five-sevenths. I've hidden one-seventh, and I've put them away, maybe inside of envelopes. So, it becomes like a game. Can you guess what I have in this envelope? I just gave you five-sevenths. Can you guess, what is this five of? What is the unit that this is five of and what is the whole this five-sevenths fraction is? So, it's getting them thinking about two different levels of units at once. They've been given this one measurement, but they don't know the unit in which it's measured, and they don't even have visually present for them what the whole unit would be. Andy: So, what they might do, is they might engage in partitioning activity. Sometimes they might partition what I give them into seven equal parts instead of five because I told them five sevenths and five sevenths to them, that means partition it a seventh. Well, that could lead to problems, and if they see that their unit is smaller than the one I have hidden, they might have to reason through what went wrong, “Why might have you have gotten a different answer than I did?” So, it's those kinds of activities—of partitioning or iterating a unit, measuring out with a unit, and then reflecting on that activity—that give them a basis for starting to coordinate these units at higher and higher levels and, therefore, in line with Amy Hackenberg's framing, develop multiplicative concepts. Mike: I think that example is really helpful. I was picturing it in my head, and I could see the opportunities that that affords for, kind of, pressing on some of those big ideas. One of the things that you made me think about is the idea of manipulatives, or even if we broaden it out a little bit, visual models. Because the question I was going to ask is, “What role might a visual model or a manipulative play in supporting a shift from additive to multiplicative thinking?” I'm curious about how you would respond to that initially. And then I think I have a follow-up question for you as well. Andy: OK. I can think of two important roles for visual models—or at least two for manipulatives—and at least one works with visual models as well. But before answering that, the bigger answer is, no one manipulative is going to be the silver bullet. It's how we use them. We can use manipulatives in ways where students are just following our procedures. We can use visual models where students are just doing what we tell them to do and reading off the answer on paper. That really isn't qualitatively any different than when we just teach them an algorithm. They don't know what they're doing. They get the answer, they read it off the paper. You could consider that to be a visual model, what they're doing on their paper or even a manipulative, they're just following a procedure. What manipulatives should afford is opportunities for students to manipulate. They should be able to carry out their mental actions. So, maybe when they're trying to partition something and then iterate it, or they're thinking about different units. That's too much for them to keep in mind in their visual imagination. So, a visual model or a manipulative gives them a way to carry those actions out to see how they work with each other, to notice the effects of those actions.  Andy: So, if the manipulative is used truly as a manipulative, then it's an opportunity for them to carry out their mental actions to coordinate them with a physical material and to see what happens. And visual models could be similar, gives them a way to sort of carry out their mental actions, maybe a little more abstractly because they're just using representations rather than the actual manipulative, but maybe gives them a way to keep track of what would happen if I partitioned this into three parts and then took one of those parts and partitioned into five. How would that compare to the whole? So, it's their actions that have to be afforded by the manipulative or the visual model. And to decide what is an appropriate manipulative or an appropriate task, we need to think about, “OK, what can they already do without it?” And I'm trying to push them to do the next thing where it helps them coordinate at a level they can't just do in their imagination, and then to reflect on that activity by looking at what they wrote or looking at what they did. So, it's always that: Carrying out actions in slightly more powerful ways than they could do in their mind. That's sort of the sense in which mathematics builds on itself. After they've reflected on what they've done and they've seen the results, now maybe that's something that they can take as an object, as something that's just there for them in imagination so they can do the next thing, adding complexity. Mike: OK. So, I take it back. I don't think I have a follow-up question because you answered it in that one. What I was kind of going to dig into is the thing that you said, which is, there's a larger question about the role that a manipulative plays, and I think that your description of a manipulative should be there to manipulate …  Andy: Uh-hm. Mike: … to help kids carry out the mental action and make meaning of that. I think that piece to me is one that I really needed clarified, just to think about my own teaching and the role the manipulatives are going to play when I'm using them to support student thinking. Andy: And I'll just add one thing, not to use too many fractions examples, but that is where most of my empirical research has been, was working with elementary and middle-school children with fractions. But I have to make these decisions based on the child. So, sometimes I'll use these cuisenaire rods, the old fraction rods, the colored fraction rods. Sometimes I'll use those with students because then it sort of simplifies the idea. They don't have to wonder whether a piece fits in exactly a certain number of times. The rods are made to fit exactly. And maybe I'm not as concerned about them cutting a construction paper into equal parts or whatever. So, the rods are already formed. But other times I feel like they might be relying too much on the rods, where they start to see the brown rod as a four. They're not even really comparing the red rod, which fits into it twice. They're just, “Oh, the red is a two, the brown is a four. I know it's in there twice because two and two is four.” So, you start to think about them whole numbers. And so sometimes I'll use the rods because I want them to manipulate them in certain ways, and then other times I'll switch to the construction paper to sort of productively frustrate this idea that they're just going to work with whole numbers. I actually want them to create parts and to see the measurements and actually measure things out. So, it all depends on what kind of mental action I want them to carry out that would determine what manipulative as well. Because manipulatives have certain affordances and certain constraints. So, sometimes cuisenaire rods have the affordances I want, and other times they have constraints that I want to go beyond with, say, construction paper. Mike: Absolutely. So, there's kind of a running theme that started to develop on the podcast. And one of the themes that comes to mind is this idea that it's important for us to think about what's happening with our students thinking as a progression rather than a checklist. What strikes me about this conversation is this shift from additive to multiplicative thinking has really major implications for our students beyond simple calculation. And I'm wondering if you could just afford us a view of, why does this shift in thinking matter for our students both in elementary school, and then also when they move beyond elementary school into middle and high school? Could you just talk about the ramifications of that shift and why it matters so much that we're not just building a set of procedures, we're building growth in the way that kids are thinking? Andy: Yeah. So, one big idea that comes up starting in middle school—but becomes more and more important as they move into algebra and calculus, any kind of engineering problem—is a rate of change. So, a rate of change is describing a relationship between units. It's like, take a simple example of speed. It's taking units of distance and units of time and transforming them into a third level of unit that is speed. So, it's that intensive relationship that's defining a new unit. When I talk about units coordination, I'm not usually talking about physical units like distance, time and speed. I'm just talking about different numerical units that students might have to coordinate. But to get really practical when we talk about the sciences, units coordinations have to happen all the time. So, students are able to be successful with their additive reasoning up to a point, and I would argue that point is probably around where they first see improper fractions. ( chuckles ) They're able to work with them up to a point, and then after that, things [are] going to be less and less sensible if they're just relying on these additive sort of strategies that each have a separate rule for a different task instead of being able to think more generally in terms of multiplicative relationships. Mike: Well, I will say from a former K–12 math curriculum director, thank you for making a very persuasive case for why it's important to help kids build multiplicative thinking. You certainly hit on some of the things that can be pitfalls for kids who are still thinking in an additive way when they start to move into upper elementary, middle school and beyond. Before we go, Andy, I suspect that this idea of shifting from additive to multiplicative thinking, that it's probably a new idea for our listeners. And you've hinted a bit about some of the folks who have been powerful in the field in terms of articulating some of these ideas. I'm wondering if there are any particular resources that you'd recommend for someone who wants to keep learning about this topic? Andy: Yeah. So, there are a bunch of us developing ideas and trying to even create resources that teachers can pick up and use. Selfishly, I'll mention one called “Developing Fractions Knowledge,” used by the U.S. Math Recovery Council in their professional development programs for teacher-leaders across the country. That book is probably, at least as far as fractions, that book is maybe the most comprehensive. But then beyond that, there are some research articles that people can access, even going in Google Scholar and looking up units, coordination and multiplicative reasoning, maybe put in Steffe's name for good measure, S-T-E-F-F-E. You'll find a lot of papers there. Some of them have been written in teacher journals as well, like journals published by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, like Teaching Children Mathematics materials that are specifically designed for teachers. Mike: Andy, thank you so much for joining us. It's really been a pleasure talking with you. Andy: OK. Yeah, thank you. This was fun. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2023 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Rounding Up  Season 1 | Episode 2 – Posing Purposeful Questions  Guest: Dr. DeAnn Huinker  Mike Wallus: Educational theorist Charles De Garmo once said, ‘To question well is to teach well. In the skillful use of the question, more than anything else, lies the fine art of teaching.' Our guest today, DeAnn Huinker, is one of the co-authors of ‘Taking Action: Implementing Effective Mathematics Teaching Practices in Grades K–5.' We'll talk with DeAnn about the art and the science of questioning and the ways that teachers can maximize the impact of their questions on student learning. DeAnn, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.  DeAnn Huinker: I'm happy to be here, Mike. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.  Mike: So, I'd like to start by noting that NCTM (National Council of Teachers of Mathematics) has identified posing purposeful questions as a high-leverage practice in ‘Principles to Actions,' and then again in 2017 with the publication of ‘Taking Action.' And I'm wondering if you can make the case for why educators should see purposeful questions as a critical part of this practice.     DeAnn: Yeah, certainly. Let's just jump right in here. As we think about purposeful questions and why we as teachers need to be more intentional and strategic in the questions we use … I was honored to be a member of the writing team for ‘Principals to Actions.' And in writing that document, we were really tasked with identifying a set of high-leverage teaching practices for mathematics. We reviewed the research from the previous 25 years ( chuckles ), and it was really clear: There's been a lot of research on teacher questioning. And what are the characteristics of effective questioning. So, as I think about making this case for purposeful questions, a couple things come to mind. First of all, researchers have estimated that teachers ask up to 400 questions each day in the classroom. I mean, that's more than one question every minute for the entire school day.  Mike: That's incredible ( sniffs ).  DeAnn: ( chuckles ) I know. That's a lot of questions. Also, if we think about it, it's not just how many questions we ask, but what questions. Because that depth of student learning is really dependent on the questions we ask them because our questions prompt them to consider and engage with the specific mathematical ideas that we're helping them to learn. The other thing I'd like to add to this, is that our questions also set the tone for what it means to learn and do mathematics.  Mike: Hmm. DeAnn: Are we asking questions about getting answers or are we asking questions that let students know we value and respect their inquiries into mathematical ideas into problem-solving, and that we really are about helping them make sense of mathematics? I think it's essential that we critically examine the types of questions we ask and how we can use them to best serve our students.  Mike: That's a really interesting way to think about it. That the questions we ask are really signaling to kids, ‘What is mathematics?' In some ways we're informing their definition of mathematics via the questions that we ask.  DeAnn: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.  Mike: Well, I think one of the most eye-opening things for me to think about lately has been just learning more about the different categories of questions and the different purposes that they can serve. So, I'm wondering if you can briefly sketch out some of the types of questions teachers could put to use in their classrooms.  DeAnn: So, in ‘Principals to Actions,' we really looked at a lot of different frameworks that people have established over the years for questioning. And we kind of boiled it down to four specific types that are particularly important for mathematics teaching. One is to gather information. For example, can students remember the names for different types of triangles? Another is to probe student thinking. This is when we want them to further explain, elaborate or clarify their thinking. Uh, third type—which is my favorite category—are questions that make the mathematics visible. In other words, these are questions that prompt students to consider and explicitly discuss the underlying math concepts. Or that we want them to make connections among math ideas and relationships. Let me give you an example. If I were going to ask students to explain how to represent 3 × 5 with an array, they would have to consider more deeply the meaning of each of those numbers and that expression, and how that would connect to the representation. So, we're really getting at the mathematics there, not perhaps the problem or tasks that cause them to think about 3 × 5.  Mike: I see. I see.  DeAnn: Fourth category [is] questions that encourage students to reflect and justify. And I think of these as the why questions. Why does it work to solve 4 × 6 by adding 12 + 12? So, those are the four categories that we identified in ‘Principles to Actions.' But since that time, in the ‘Taking Action' book at the elementary level, my co-author and I decided to add a fifth category, because these questions really are emerging in classrooms often. So that fifth category is asking questions that encourage students to engage with the reasoning of other students. Many people refer to these as talk moves. For example, if we think about these talk moves that teachers use in their classrooms or that we need to use more often in our classrooms, an example would be, ‘Who could add on to what Mateo just said?' Or another example would be, ‘Could someone describe or put into their own words the strategy that Jasmine was just telling us about?' Those talk moves are the ones that really get students to listen to and start to have conversations with each other.  Mike: It's interesting because what comes to mind is, there are multiple reasons why that's such an important thing to do in the classroom. In addition to engaging with the reasoning, what it makes me think is it also gives the teacher the opportunity to position a child who may potentially have been marginalized as someone who has math knowledge or whose ideas are valuable.  DeAnn: As I was thinking about talking with you today, Mike, I got thinking about that same idea, which is how do we use questions to position students as capable and as having mathematical authority? And I think this is actually a new area in mathematics education that we need to explore in research further. Just by saying, ‘Can you repeat what Jasmine just said?' I'm actually marking her idea as probably something we should all listen to and consider more deeply.  Mike: Absolutely.  DeAnn: I definitely agree that we can use questions to position students as capable in math classrooms, which is something that's greatly needed these days. And that also helps students develop a more positive math identity in themselves and even fosters their math agency and capability in the classroom.  Mike: So, for me at least, personally, my perspective on questions really changed after I read the ‘5 Practices for Orchestrating Productive Mathematics Discussions' that was written by Margaret Smith and Mary Kay Stein. And after I read that, I really found myself investing a lot more time in preplanning my questions. So, what are your thoughts about whether or how teachers should approach preplanning questions?  DeAnn: In the five practices model, the first practice is to anticipate. This involves anticipating student responses to the kind of key math task of the lesson, and also planning questions so that you, as the teacher, are ready to respond to your students.  Mike: Uh-hm.  DeAnn: Practice of anticipating is preplanning. And I would strongly suggest having those questions written down on a piece of paper so that we are ready to refer to them during the lesson, because it's going to keep us on track, and it's going to give us those tools to help press students to talk more about the mathematical ideas that we want to surface.  Mike: I think part of what really is illuminating for me is, we're anticipating how students might think, and then really, we're digging into what's a response that can help advance their thinking regardless of the angle that they're coming at the task from. So, it's, in some ways, what we're talking about preplanning questions, is really kind of a differentiation strategy to some degree. DeAnn: Perhaps we want to talk a little bit more about the use of the math teaching practice talks about asking both assessing questions and advancing questions?  Mike: Yeah.  DeAnn: So, let's dig into that a little bit.  Mike: Yeah.  DeAnn: The teaching practice from NCTM says we should be using purposeful questions to both assess and advanced students' reasoning and their sense-making about important math ideas and relationships. So, assessing questions are those that really draw out students' current understanding and strategies. And then advancing questions are those that really move students forward in their thinking and understanding—and pushes or presses them or pulls them along towards those learning goals for the lesson. So, that has probably been one of the main things that has really evolved in my thinking in working on ‘Principles to Actions,' is thinking more deeply about these assessing questions and the advancing questions that we need to be posing in our classrooms.  Mike: It strikes me that of the two—they're both important. But it may be that planning advancing questions is the more challenging task for an educator. Talk to me a little bit about preplanning or thinking in advance about advancing questions.  DeAnn: Certainly. So, first as we think about assessing questions, those tend to be more the recalling information, probing student thinking.  Mike: Uh-hm.  DeAnn: As teachers, I think we're pretty good at that. We can all say, ‘Well, how did you think about that? How did you figure that out?' But the advancing questions are much more difficult because that means we, as teachers, have to know: Where are we going with this task and what's the math we want? So, in thinking about this … Or, for example, I was recently working with a group of teachers. And what they did is they worked in grade-level groups and even preplanned the questions they were going to use in an upcoming lesson. And it was really true that yes, assessing questions they had. But we took a lot of time to kind of unpack and think about these advancing lessons. So, I'm going to kind of share, like, three steps here to think about this.  DeAnn: One, you really need to know the math learning goals for the lesson because the advancing questions need to be about the mathematics students are learning. Two, it's helpful to work through the math task that the students are going to be doing in the lesson cause that's going to help you anticipate and approach the task and think about, ‘OK, what might be happening in their work?' And then third, we can preplan those questions that should be specific to the task, to the anticipated student work, and most importantly to the mathematics.  Mike: Uh-hm.  DeAnn: If you can do that with someone, it's so invaluable to brainstorm and bounce ideas off each other.  Mike: I was thinking about what you were saying. And it's striking the difference between an advancing question that's, as you said, about the mathematics that we're trying to advance, versus a question that might move a child toward mimicking a strategy for a right answer right now, but that isn't actually in the long-term advancing the mathematics that we want. That really, for me, is jumping out as something that … it's a line that we want to help people see the difference between those two things, particularly in the moment. And I think that's why, as you were talking, DeAnn, the idea of, let's write some of these things down so that we have them on hand. Because in the moment it's often difficult to make those kinds of judgements when you're in a public space with a whole bunch of children in front of you. That's a superhuman task at some times ( chuckles ). So, there's certainly no stigma to writing it down. In fact, it's a strategy that makes a ton of sense for teachers.  DeAnn: Yeah, definitely agree. There's nothing wrong with having those questions on a piece of paper, on a clipboard, carrying that with you, pausing, taking a moment. ‘What might be some questions I want to ask here?' I mean, asking questions is really a skill we develop as teachers, and we need to use tools and resources to, kind of, help us.  Mike: Well, I was going to say, the other thing that's really hitting me, DeAnn, is the connection between the learning goal and the question; how clearly we see the learning goal and the different levels of progression that kids will make as they're approaching the learning goal. And advancing means recognizing the meaning of a child's thinking at a given time and thinking about what's the next move, regardless of where they're at. Move children toward that deeper understanding.  DeAnn: Yeah. Perhaps it would be helpful if we share some examples.  Mike: Let's do that.  DeAnn: All right. So, assessing questions—as we were talking, it's like, ‘Tell me about your thinking? Can you explain your picture to me? Can you tell me about the tape diagram you drew and used to solve this problem?' Just getting into that kid's thinking and where they're currently at. But then the advancing questions really move students' thinking forward. As you were saying, kind of along this continuum. So, we have to be ready to guide them, kind of step by step, to kind of scaffold that thinking, right? So, I might ask a question, ‘What equation could you write for that problem?' Maybe they got the answer, but what would be an equation they could write? Because perhaps my learning goal is to help them make a connection between those different representations, the context and the equation. I might see that a child has written an equation, but then I might say, ‘Could you label what each of those numbers means in your equation?' Because I really want to make sure they understand the mathematical meaning of each of those numbers.  Mike: Absolutely.  DeAnn: Just asking kids questions, like ‘How are your strategies similar or different?' That's also going to make them think a little more [deeply]. So, all of these advancing questions, really the goal is sense-making and more depth of understanding.  Mike: That totally makes sense. I'm wondering if we can pivot a little bit and talk about the types of teacher moves that might accompany an assessing or an advancing question? What might I do after I ask an assessing question, as opposed to say, asking an advancing question?  DeAnn: So, with assessing questions, the goal of them is really to understand where the student is currently at. So, I would ask an assessing question, and as the teacher I would stay and listen. So, we could assume students are working individually or small groups.  Mike: OK.  DeAnn: So, I might ask an assessing question of a child or a small group and stay and listen because I'm trying to figure out, really to understand, what they did ( chuckles ) and why they did that. Whereas an advancing question, I would be more likely to pose the question to the individual child or small group and then walk away and say, ‘I'll be back in a minute or two to see what you've done or what you're thinking about.' So, it's kind of like giving them time to pause and ponder and consider that question. Mike: This is fascinating because I wonder if for a lot of people that might feel counterintuitive, that you would pose the advancing question and walk away. Tell us a little bit more about the why behind that choice.  DeAnn: Our goal really is to help students become independent math learners in the classroom. By asking the question and then saying, ‘I'll be back in a couple minutes; think about that or show me what you've done,' we want them to be able to figure out how to proceed with a task on their own so that they don't become dependent upon us as teachers. But they really develop that agency in themselves to try things out, whether they're right or wrong, but at least that they're making some progress in the task.  Mike: You know what it makes me think, DeAnn, is that asking an advancing question and walking away might feel foreign to the educator, and it might at least initially feel kind of foreign to the child as well. But over time, it will start to feel like the culture of the classroom, and the child will actually get to a point where it's like, ‘Oh, my teacher believes that I have the ability to think about this and come up with an idea.' And that's a real gift to a child. It does what you were talking about earlier, which is: Question sets the culture and helps children think about what is it to be learning about math.  DeAnn: Yeah. We've also talked about that other type of question to encourage students, to engage with the reasoning of each other. That also really helps with those advancing questions and that tone in the classroom. Cause you could ask a question as a teacher and then say, ‘Why don't you talk with each other for a while about this?' Or ask one student to explain to another student some of their ideas. So, we can, again, use those talk moves when students are working in partners in small groups to learn from each other.  Mike: I'm struck by the idea that this conversation we're having about questioning is also really pretty tightly connected to, how do we support children when they need to engage with productive struggle? And I'm wondering if you could talk about the connection between high-quality advancing or assessing questions, and helping kids manage and engage in productive struggle at the end.  DeAnn: Thinking back to ‘Principles to Actions,' we identified eight high-leverage teaching practices for mathematics. And one of them is using purposeful questions. But another one is supporting productive struggle. So, the connection I think you're kind of alluding to here, Mike, really is they go hand in hand. We can use our questioning to encourage students to persevere in the mathematics that they're doing. But those questions, again, [mean] we are, first of all, trying to understand where the student is at by asking those assessing questions. And then we can encourage them to kind of, like, this bridge, right? With those advancing questions we're trying to get them to consider some of the mathematical ideas that might actually not even be on their horizon for them right now. So, if we say, ‘How could you put this fraction on a number line?' Or ‘How do you know this fraction is greater than or less than one?' We're asking a question to really make that math idea visible and to get them to consider it. And then we're pausing and giving them time and space to consider it and figure out how to proceed on their own. If I, as a teacher, tell them what to do next, that means I'm owning the math, I'm being the authority, and I'm not valuing struggle as part of the learning process.  Mike: Mm, yes. Yes, absolutely. Well, before we close, I want to dig into one more question type. And this is the one that I think really is just kind of transcendent. It transcends the task at hands and digs into students' understanding of big ideas. And it's the one that you would describe as making mathematics visible. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of these types of questions and perhaps some examples that would help people kind of envision what they look like in an elementary classroom?  DeAnn: So, you asked about these questions [that are] really making the math visible. As I think about that, what comes right to mind is a fascinating study conducted by Michelle Perry and her colleagues. They actually looked at the questions and examined very closely the questions teachers ask in a first-grade classroom for mathematics. And they compared the questioning of teachers in Japan, Taiwan, in the United States. Well, unfortunately they found that teachers in the U.S. ask significantly [fewer] questions that require high-level thinking than in Japan and Taiwan. In fact, teachers in those countries tend to ask questions that transcend the problem at hand. I love that phrase. The question goes beyond the surface of the task to really transcend that problem at hand, to get at the underlying math ideas, math concepts, and connections that we want students to make. And they found that teachers in Japan and Taiwan went beyond the surface to really make the math visible for students to consider. And really kept students engaged at higher cognitive levels of thinking.  Mike: That is fascinating. What it reminds me of is, I think it was Jim [James] Hiebert and [James] Stigler wrote about the idea of the mathematics classroom as a cultural activity, in that there's this kind of underlying script of what it means to be a student or a teacher in a mathematics classroom. And I think what we're really talking about in some ways is the role of questioning in building a different vision of what a mathematics classroom is or what it means to be an educator of mathematics.  DeAnn: Yeah. I think that ties right back to our earlier sharing about productive struggle. We think if students don't know the answer quickly that it's our job to step in and tell them how to do it.  Mike: Uh-hm. We're almost coming full circle though, in the sense that I think the promise of high-quality questioning—be it assessing or advancing—is that we're really, by considering the ways that students might think about a task and then considering the ways that you can assess that and advance their thinking from wherever they may be, we really are helping teachers see a different way. And I think that's the power of what you're describing when you talk about strong questioning, DeAnn.  DeAnn: Yeah.  Mike: So, we talked a little bit about what to do next. But I would love for you to take a moment to weigh in on the question of wait time. What are your thoughts about wait time and its value and how that can work in a classroom to support children?  DeAnn: So far today, we've been talking a lot about like the types of questions that teachers ask. But the implementation of those questions is also something we need to think a little bit more about. So, [there are] two types of wait time. Wait time is when I ask a question as a teacher, and how long do I wait until I call on a student? The research on wait time really shows that as teachers, we tend to wait less than a second.  Mike: That's incredible.  DeAnn: Yeah. We provide no processing time to our young learners to really formulate those ideas in their head and then be able to share back. So, just by reminding ourselves to pause for 3 seconds makes a huge difference in the learning that goes on in a classroom. Those 3 seconds, what happens is we find out that more students will respond to our questions. The length of students' responses increases. And those questions or those responses from students where they say, ‘Oh, I don't know,' decrease. So merely waiting 3 seconds makes a huge difference. And as teachers, we just don't deal well with silence, and thinking time, and processing time. So, I think it's always a good reminder to just monitor the amount of time we give students to process ideas after we ask a question.  Mike: You know, as a person who works in math education, when I'm at a dinner party or in mixed company with people, and I ask them, ‘Tell me about your memories of elementary school mathematics.' There are a few common things that always come up. One is typically, as I'm sure won't surprise you, the idea of memorizing my facts. And the other theme that kind of goes along with that is this sense that I wasn't good at math because I didn't know the answer right away. And the connection I'm making is, maybe that's because we didn't give you enough time to actually process and think. If we simply expand our time and give kids 3 seconds or 4 or 5, rather than 1, how different would that experience of mathematics be for children? How many folks would actually feel differently about mathematics and maybe, perhaps, not associate mathematics with just being the first and being the fastest to find the answer.  DeAnn: So, again, we're talking about using our questioning to kind of establish that tone and the expectations in the classroom about what it means to learn and do mathematics. And we shouldn't be in such a hurry ( chuckles ) for students to respond. We as adults need our processing time. Our young learners, [who] are first encountering many of these new ideas in mathematics, we need to give them time to think and to process and make connections before we expect them to respond to any of our questions.  Mike: The piece about 1 second is just so striking. It's odd because I suspect people imagine that by coming back that quickly, they're actually supporting the child. But you're actually doing the opposite ( chuckles ). You're teaching them: One, if you haven't had it in a second, what's wrong with you? And then two: You're also fostering dependency. It's fascinating how, what I think comes from a desire to help, is actually debilitating. DeAnn: It really speaks to the need to reestablish not only norms for students in our classrooms, but really for ourselves as teachers.  Mike: Definitely. Well, I just wanted to say thank you so much for this conversation. It's really been a pleasure to have you join us and hopefully we'll have you back at some time in the future.  DeAnn: And thank you, Mike. I've really enjoyed talking about the importance of purposeful questions for teachers to consider more deeply in their classroom practice.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.  © 2022 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Keith asks Mike probing questions about how he's doing psychologically. Spoiler alert: Not well. But -- and this is important -- no sexual side effects to speak of. Importantly, that suggests a male potency beyond what you probably think he's capable of. We're talking Clubber Lang-level potency. In the "fastest time to nut" category, both hosts are doing decently well. There's some question as to the absolute fastest that could be achieved, but it's plainly under 5 minutes, which is impressive however you slice it. Some discussion of the attractiveness of beards on men and circumcised versus "natural" plumbing downstairs. What happens when you move on from a relationship where sex was off the hook? And can an attractive young woman actually be "bad" at sex. Not to beat a dead horse here, but we're mostly in the podcasting game for the chicks (who isn't?). So, if a lovely young lady would like to meet either host, please contact us. We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week: https://ymmv.me/82/best-sex https://ymmv.me/82/bad-sex https://ymmv.me/82/married-sex Twitter: @ymmvpod Facebook: ymmvpod Email: ymmvpod@gmail.com

HP Elite Dragonfly 頂級商務筆電，專業設計輕巧便利，不限時空，解放你的工作自由！3:2 螢幕比，享受 13.5吋的輕盈及更大的螢幕視野，工作更有效率！https://go.fstry.me/426a52W —— 以上為播客煮與 Firstory Podcast 廣告 —— 「你為什麼想來我們公司？」 英文怎麼說？ 之前有聽眾留言給我們，說想聽聽看面試的時候會用到的英文， 所以我們第六十集特輯，就來做面試英文特輯囉～～。（歡呼） 在這一集裡，Duncan 跟 Mike 角色扮演模擬面試， 聽聽看如果在面試的時候被面試主管問到 "你為什麼想來我們公司"、"你希望透過這份工作達到什麼樣的目標 " 可以怎麼用英文回答呢？ 這一集的文化閒聊，Duncan 跟我們說明了中文都翻譯成 "履歷" 的 CV 跟 Resume 有什麼不一樣？ 那 Cover letter 又是什麼呢？對面試過程來說很重要嗎？ 快來聽這一集內容，聽聽看面試常被問到的這些問題英文怎麼說。 歡迎點這個連結進 ivybar 網站看課，輸入優惠碼 ivybar500，買課程馬上省 500 塊！ https://pse.is/3qyavt 現在你可以按下面的連結留語音留言給我們： https://ivybar.firstory.io/voicemail/ckv5z2ush003d0918puekx0hu 跟我們說說你想聽什麼主題，期待你的留言喔。 快速幫你複習一下這集的主題句 ＆ 模擬面試對話： 你為什麼想來我們公司？ -Why do you want to work for our company? -Why do you want to work at this company? 情境對話 Mike（面試官 Interviewer ）：請你先介紹稍微一下自己。 First, please tell us a little bit about yourself. Duncan（面試者 interviewee）：自由發揮。 Mike（面試官）：你為什麼會想來我們公司？ Why do you want to work for our company? Duncan（面試者）：我一直有在關注你們公司的產品。 Well, I've been interested in your company for a while. 我覺得你們除了內容做得好之外， I think that besides creating good products, 也很在乎有沒有透過這些內容傳達正面的訊息給大家， You also deliver a positive message to everyone with your content. 這也是我很在乎的一件事， This is something I really care about. 所以希望可以成為你們團隊的一份子。 So, I'd like to became a part of your team. Mike：感謝你的回饋。 Thank you for your response. 我想再問一個問題，你希望透過這份工作達到什麼樣的目標？ I'd like to ask another question. What do you hope to achieve by working at this job? Duncan：短期內我希望可以很快熟悉整個工作流程，讓工作進行得很順暢。 In the short term, I want to get used to regular employment, so that I can work efficiently. 長期目標我希望可以寫出很棒的內容，帶給讀者正面的影響。 In the long term, I hope I can create excellent content that will positively influence readers. Mike：好的，謝謝，那我們今天的面試就先到這邊，我這幾天會再跟你聯絡。 OK, Thank you. We'll finish up the interview here, and we will contact you again in the next few days. 如果你想複習詳細版的主題句＆單字，歡迎來我們學英文吧的網站！（愛心） 學英文吧網站https://ivybar.com.tw/?c=3 或追蹤 iVY BAR 學英文吧的 IG，上面圖文版 podcast 複習也很棒喔！https://pse.is/39vede 現在我們也有影音版的 Podcast 實境秀喔https://pse.is/3ahupl 歡迎小額贊助支持這句英文怎麼說： https://pay.firstory.me/user/ivybar Powered by Firstory Hosting

Mike C-Roc Ciorrocco is the CEO of People Building, Inc., and the powerhouse behind the "What Are You Made Of?" movement. He is a performance coach, author, dynamic public speaker, visionary, and thought leader. He has been featured by Yahoo! Finance as one of the Top Business Leaders to Follow in 2020 and is on a mission to build people. He is driven to inspire others and he measures his success on how he is able to help others achieve greatness. C-Roc had a fire lit in him at an early age. That fire has ignited him with a fierce desire to compel people to see the greatness inside themselves using past life events to fuel their fire. Past hardships can be a powerful gravitational force that keeps you down and forces you to think small. To get out of orbit you need Rocket Fuel. Mike "C-Roc" Ciorrocco shows you how to convert past adversity into ROCKET FUEL to break free from the negative pull of pain and despair. In his new book, C-Roc offers life-changing lessons in personal transformation by asking yourself What Are You Made Of? This powerful question will ignite within you a thrust to greatness! Learn how to overcome painful past obstacles and achieve a fulfilling life where you're in command of your future. If you're ready to shoot for the stars, C-Roc says, "Thrust is a must!" Strap in and get ready for the ride of your life. Mike's latest book: https://amzn.to/3wwkTX5 CEO - People Building, Inc. C-Roc's Website: https://www.mikecroc.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikeycroc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mikeciorrocco YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGWHuKojqZfcXmvGCAi_t1Q LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-ciorrocco/ Email: info@peoplebuildinginc.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, welcome, everybody. Today, my guest is Mike "C-Roc" Ciorrocco. I'm really excited to have this talk with him and I know you're going to enjoy this. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Mike: Thank you, Joe. I'd like to start every interview that I go on with gratitude and just really express that to you for allowing me to come on and share with you. And thank you to your audience for listening and showing up. Joe: Absolutely, man, I love that gratitudes a huge thing in my life, so I'm right there with you. I appreciate it. I think it's important that everyone has their back story makes up sort of what they've become in life. You know, it doesn't define who they become. But there is something about what has happened throughout your life leading up to where you are now that has molded this person that you've become. And I Mike: Right. Joe: Am interested in that. And and I always start with this, just like you always start. What is it? What are you made of? Right. That's what you Mike: They Joe: Start Mike: Had to turn your head sideways, I love Joe: perfect! Mike: It, you know, now, you know, I came from a broken home. I don't remember my parents together, Joe. I grew up around a lot of broken people, alcoholics, drug addicts, people suffering from anxiety, depression. My grandmother committed suicide after taking too much anti anxiety or depression medication. You know, a lot of things I went through as a kid just watching just destruction. And, you know, I think that decisions we make and Focus's that we have either go towards living and surviving or destruction. And I was seeing the destruction part and I wasn't OK with that. And I didn't want to accept that. So I would always try to help people switch around even from a young age. I was just not OK with what I was seeing. And, you know, my mom when I was three or four years old, I just remember her always telling me that I inspired her and I was going to be a leader. And I think subconsciously, subconsciously, she was doing that because she knew what was going on in the family and knew that I was gonna have to deal with some things. And so I had that programmed into me. So I was always just looking for people to help, looking for people to show them a better way and not buying into what they were telling themselves. And so, you know, that's just something I experienced at a young age. And really when it came down, what lit my fire and what I made of, I would say, is rocket fuel. Because when I was eight, my mom was moving on to her third marriage and I wasn't really up for going into another man's house and learned another man's rules Joe: Hmm. Mike: And but decided to give my dad a try who was moving on to his second marriage. And at that time, you know. I broke my mom's heart by doing that. I didn't know that at the time, but she told me later on that, you know, she cried herself to sleep at night when I left and I was our first child, you know, and when I moved to my dad's, everything seemed fine at first. But after three years, you know, during that three years, there was a lot of conflict. You know, there's a when you had step parents into the mix, any time that stuff happens. The kid is the only link between the past relationship and so a lot gets taken out on the children and anybody that's been in a broken home that dealt with child support, custody battles every other weekend, things that parents jealous, things like just everybody that's been through that knows what I'm talking about. And so a lot of that time they're in from eight to 11 hours, experience a lot of emotional, psychological abuse threats, things like that that were really probably not directed towards me, but came my way. And at nine years old, I would sleep with my baseball bat a lot of nights Joe: Wow. Mike: Because I was scared. And no kid should have to go through that, through that, of course. But that's what went into making me look. I went through these things. I went through court, child psychologists, to see if I was mature enough that at a young age to figure out who I wanted to live with, like all that kind of stuff Joe: Make Mike: And. Joe: Your own decisions, all of that, that crazy. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, yeah, Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Mike: And seeing parents fight Joe: Yeah. Mike: And, you know, just just not not happy environment, and so that's what went into me. But the thing is, is that I was always on the right side of the track. Thank God. I was always looking at how can I be better not being accepting of it. Let me look at the bright side of things. Let me look at, OK, what is this doing and how can I take advantage of using this to a better life? So one weekend I was coming home from my mom's house Joe: And Mike: And Joe: So Mike: I Joe: I don't mean to interrupt. Was this Mike: Noticed Joe: All Mike: For. Joe: In Maryland or all back on the East Coast or. Mike: This is in Pennsylvania, outside of Philly. Joe: Ok, cool. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Ok. Mike: So so my mom was living in Maryland, and you know what, I got to about 10, some 10 years old, give or take. I was coming home from my mom's house one day, one weekend after being there and my stomach was in knots. I was anxious. I don't want to go back. And my mom was saying something was wrong. She questioned me and I told her, you know, when you go through abuse, anybody that's been through abuse, you can probably relate to this. That one you don't just like to share because you're afraid that people won't believe you, too. You kind of you're so accustomed to going through it, you're not sure how bad it really is. Somebody on the outside would be like, holy cow, you're dealing with that really. Joe: Yeah. Mike: But as you're going through it, you just think it's ordinary. Another thing, maybe you're embarrassed that you let it go on for that long. And then the weirdest thing is that you're actually concerned with your abuser. You're like, what will happen if I share this to them? Joe: At. Mike: You know, just a weird thing. So I finally came came to the realization that I need to share that my mom said, you know, I'm going to get you out of there. I'm going to file court papers. You don't need to be going through that. That's not ordinary. You need to, you know, in a better situation, she said. But if you do if I do this, you need to stick to your guns. You've got to be like really, really firm because they're going to try to talk you out of it. And in life, when you believe in something, you've got to stick to your guns, man, because people will have agendas and they're going to try to talk you out of it, move one way or the other. And at the end of the day. If you do that, you're not going to live the life you want to live, so she reminded me that, you know, 10 years old, you know, filling my head with great stuff, you know, and I went back home that day and waited and waited weeks went by and waited for those court papers to be delivered. You know, I just knew it was going to happen. And I didn't tell my dad about it, of course. And then finally, one day I come home from school and the tension in the house, you could feel it like it was something was up. And I knew what the deal Joe: Mm Mike: Was. Joe: Hmm. Mike: I had to feel the first. I thought I did something wrong. You know, I'm looking around like, what did I do today? He had his papers in his hand. My dad did. And I knew, like, oh, here we go. And he told me to go to my room. Now, my dad was my hero. He had a successful masonry business, very hard worker, big forearms, rough hands. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, you tell he's a hard worker and he always cared a wad of hundred dollar bills in his pocket. And I thought that was the coolest thing and had a rubber band around Joe: So Mike: It Joe: Did Mike: And. Joe: My partner, it's so buddy. Mike: Yeah, yeah, it must be the last thing Joe: Yeah, and. Mike: He would always show me the money, and I thought it was a cool hundred dollar bills, Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, so he came back in front of me and I didn't get into the discussion with him because my mom said, stick to your guns. So he proceeded to tell me how my mom would have guys coming in and out. Why would you want to go there? You have it made here. You have everything you need. They're poor. They don't have anything. You know, my mom was I mean, we look at the houses. Twenty five, thirty thousand. Our house broken down cars in the driveway. You know, we went on vacation to the Jersey Shore. Joe: Yeah. Mike: But we stayed in a rundown motel, one room for kids, two adults, and we were I just remember just the other day, we were actually able to bring some friends with us sometimes, which just makes it like just I don't even remember how that worked. And we would take black trash bags as a suitcase. So, you know, share my story. By the way, back in the day, I was kind of embarrassed by that. I just didn't like to share that, you know. Joe: Yep. Mike: But I started to realize that the more you share your story, the more impact you can have and the more people that can relate to it and maybe change your life for two Joe: Yep, Mike: Or millions, Joe: Yep. Mike: You know. So I started sharing that. But just to wrap it up real quick, so when I did confirm that my dad took that wad of hundred dollar bills out of his pocket, peeled one off, crumpled it up and threw it at me and said, if that's the case and you want to move there, you're going to need this when you're living on the street with your mother one day. And I remember that 30 some years I lived off that spark that was lit right there because I'm stubborn, my shirt that I think is, say, Joe: And. Mike: Stubborn, perversely unyielding, it's a good thing when it's on the right thing. But, you know, I was like, I'm not going to let that happen. And so 30 some years, I was driving off that spark until two years ago. I really subconsciously I was doing that. I really realized two years ago, wait a minute here, there's something magical that's going on. My life keeps going on its upward trajectory. No matter what happens, no matter screw ups, let downs, disappointments, what is happening here and what I found, which I wrote in my book that's coming out Monday, May 3rd on Amazon Rocket Fuel, I was taken everything that would stop normal human beings or slow them down, store it in my fuel tank instead of my truck, would weigh you down and converted it into rocket fuel for my future to become unstoppable. And I found that and I realized, wait a minute, this is not just a concept. This is an this is a law. If you do this, you really are unstoppable to live in the life of your dreams until you're plucked from this planet. So that's why I decided to write this book that Grant Carter wrote the foreword because it was so powerful. I got to get this message out to people. So that's a little bit about the story. There's you know, that's the short version, actually. Joe: No, that's all good. That's exactly what I wanted, the only piece that I still need to figure out is what did you do? How did you figure out what you wanted to do in life in that middle section of where people go to college or they get a job? Or what Mike: Yeah. Joe: Did you do during that time? Mike: Well, I played football and I didn't drink any alcohol or party all through high school, I played football, baseball wrestled, but football was my love Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: And I just I always thought about I want to go to Ohio State, play football, because I just love their team. I watched them play Michigan all the time growing up. And I never grew tall enough, never grew fast enough Joe: I feel your pain. Mike: That. Yeah. So five, six and three quarters, you got to be really, really fast if you're five, six Joe: Yeah. Mike: And three quarters. So I decided to go to Division three. I played football in college study business. But when I got to college, Joe, I lost my focus and I started chasing girls and party in which I never did before. And it was like Disney World first, you Joe: Yeah, Mike: Know what I mean? Joe: Yeah. Mike: And I just lost, man, I four, five, six, seven years in that range. I was just it's all I cared about was parties where the girls at and I need to be around people. And so that's that's the lead up to that. And then eventually I met my wife, who just the commitment to my wife straighten me up. And I was off to the races. I think that my thing with my wife right now, I joke with her all the time, is I have to outsource. I have to earn her spending on Amazon and deliveries to the house. So it's constantly like this. The other day she's like, I look I go up in the kitchen and there's a piece of decking, like the composite decking. Joe: Oh, you know Mike: We Joe: That Mike: Have Joe: That's Mike: A wood Joe: Going Mike: Deck. Joe: To be redone. Mike: And I'm like, I already told you, oh, not right now. It seems like I already had somebody come over measured Joe: Oh, Mike: On my car and drive back down into the cave. Joe: That's Mike: I call this my studio, my cave. I got to go make some money now. Joe: That's so Mike: A Joe: Funny. Mike: Great motivator. Joe: That is awesome. All right. Well, that's where and was college. Mike: Salisbury University in Maryland. Joe: Ok, and then ever since you've stayed in Maryland, Mike: Yeah, Joe: But Mike: I Joe: Now Mike: Moved Joe: You're Mike: To Joe: In Mike: Connecticut Joe: Ocean City, Mike: For a period of time, Joe: Yep, Mike: But we moved to Ocean City Joe: Yep. Mike: Now. Yep. Joe: Which is beautiful. I love it there. OK, cool. Yeah. And I'm Mike: Thank Joe: On the East Mike: You. Joe: Coast. I'm originally from New Mike: A Joe: York. Mike: Cool, Joe: So. Mike: Cool. Joe: So this leads right into the question that since you're going to do the decking, are you still doing. Are you still in the mortgage business because that's your. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Mike: Yeah, Joe: Ok. OK. Mike: Yeah, we have a have a division that I run with three best friends, they take care of the day to day operations Joe: Yep. Mike: And it's a large division under our nation's lending. And we run it like our own business. And it's great people, great culture. It's just phenomenal. Joe: And Mike: So. Joe: You've been doing that quite a long time, right? I've saw Mike: Yet. Joe: You've gotten rated as number number one in Yahoo! Finance are right. I mean, you have. Mike: Yeah, so 2006, I got into it and started as a loan officer and just went from two employees and started a branch and vision and two employees up to 40. Joe: Wow, that's incredible. OK, cool. So when did you make this shift of and you talk about this in one of your videos about sharing your story and you share. You also mentioned it when you were giving your story, how important that is. And when did you make this when did you allow yourself to say, OK, I have this business and I have great partners and people to run this business? When did you decide to at least start your company now with what you're doing with your podcast, in your book and everything? What was the trigger for that? Mike: Yes, so early, twenty, nineteen, my stepfather, George, she took over from my dad when I was 11. He was a great guy and he passed away in twenty eighteen and a heart attack suddenly. And I wrote about this in the book, the story about how he found out and everything. It's it's you know, but but at the end of the day, he had a passion when he was passionate about something like football, baseball, hunting, fishing. He would get up and just go nuts, like deep voice, like everybody couldn't, like, really understand him. He was like so passionate, like they would be taken aback by him. And when he passed away, you know, a couple of weeks after he passed away, I had this passion or energy, something spirit come inside of me. Like, I just felt different. And I realized that I wasn't playing a big enough game in life. You know, I was doing well in the business and the mortgages and all that. But it just that's not the game that I was designed for. I was playing small and I started to realize, wait a minute, I need to open myself up to other opportunities, because if I just focus here, this is where I'm going to stay. And I was having truths that I was telling myself and beliefs that I was telling myself is that this is it for me. This is I'm stuck, you know, Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: I don't necessarily love the mortgage business. It's great and all that. But the end of the day, I just had a bigger, bigger calling. And so I started trying to figure out, OK, how can I get known in this calling of building people? Because that's what I actually do at the mortgage business. It wasn't the mortgage business. It was I was building people. I was helping develop people. And so I said, how can I get known more in a bigger, bigger scale mystate instead of just my town? Then I was like, that's not big enough. I'll come up short. How about the country and then the globe? And then I was like, you know, what? If I start really expanding my mind, I'm like, if there's aliens, which I've never seen one, but if there is, let me see if I can get aliens to know who I am and really go for that and then come up a little short and I'll be all right. And that's the way I started thinking about things and started trying to impact and share my story with tens of millions of people, hundreds of millions of people. How can I do that? And I started to obsess about that. And that's when the podcast came. The book idea came and and I just started networking like an animal and going on. You know, I've done three hundred interviews in the last year. Joe: Oh, that's crazy. Mike: So just really lean into it and that's how it all started, and then now I'm into tech, into the tech world where I'm developing a tech product. I co-founded the company. And also we have other we're creating a tech portfolio of other co-founders, non tech entrepreneurs that have ideas that think that they can never do it. They usually go to the grave with those Joe: Mm Mike: Things. Joe: Hmm. Mike: We're bringing them into the world and giving them the resources they need to actually co-found their companies and creating unstoppable people. Because my mission, Joe, is all people are unstoppable to live in the life of their dreams. And so everything I do, I filter through that mission. Joe: It's so cool, man, and it's so funny because you hit it right on the head with with the same thing with me, it's like you don't have a successful business. But I know it's not my calling. It's not what I was put here to do. And and everything that I do should be so much more impactful and so much bigger. And I've had this I had the conversation with David Meltzer. And at the same Mike: Yeah. Joe: Time, he brings you back in focus and he's like, yeah, but you should know that you you have everything you need. You just got to get out of your own way. It's not a matter that you should focus on wanting more. You have it all. You're just Mike: Yep. Joe: You're literally getting in your own way of getting it done. Mike: Yeah, and that's the thing, it's the truths that we tell ourselves we're living an illusion, we let the illusions that we have based on our beliefs and past experiences, and we let that affect us and limit us and block us. And really, at the end of the day, you know, we'd rather explain our life instead of actually intervening in it. We'd like to explain with excuses, you know, and justify things and, you know, at the end of the day, man, we just tell ourselves what we can tell ourselves that helps us survive. And to me, that's not good enough, because you're going to always come up a little short, so why not thrive and really go after it? And, you know, there's not everybody that's going to be able to do what we do. So why don't we take it up a notch and get get really abundance, like go after abundance so that we can help other people and distribute this information to other people. So that's the kind of things that I started thinking. I started hanging around people that coach and mentor me the right way, thinking big, you know, also, you know, still like Dave Meltzer talks about, you've got to be happy now. It's not like later, Joe: Yeah, Mike: So. Joe: Yeah, so I don't want to go down the current path, I follow him, I love the stuff that he does. I know that it fits the mold for a lot of people that are in the real estate world. And but Mike: Yeah. Joe: I also know that he's doing a lot of other things. But how he wrote the foreword to your book, which is amazing, how how much did he influence you making this jump to doing what you're doing now? Mike: So when George died, my stepfather, my brother was read in the next room and he said, Mike, you've got to read this book, this guy sounds just like you. I'll take a look at it. I started I saw Grant before and like pictures, but I thought he was like a real estate. Joe: Yep, Mike: I thought he trained realtors, Joe: Yep, Mike: I wasn't even sure, Joe: Yep. Mike: Right, so I read the book and I'm like, holy cow, this guy speaking to me, he's going through similar situations that I've been Joe: Yeah. Mike: Through. Like, I can totally relate. And I but but the big thing was about it was I've always had this big think, but I got cocooned for a while by people that I surround myself with that were broken thinkers, broken mindset, people, people that didn't fit my culture, but they produce. So I kept them around and people that quit on me. And I let that affect me personally. And I got into this situation where I was invalidated, me myself. I felt invalidated on being the animal that I actually am. And so when I was reading that book, I'm like, wait a minute, this this shows me something. I'm not the crazy one. Those people are the crazy ones. I have an animal. So I did unleash it. So I was able to unleash the beast and that's what it did for me. And then I just immersed myself in this content, hung around with all these people, build relationships inside his company, because I just want to be around those types of people. Joe: Yep. Mike: Great, great friendships. Like I said, Jerry Glantz, a friend of mine, I just you know, I'm proud to have them in my in my circle. And so when when I wrote the book, the book actually came from an idea that I got while I was interviewing grad on my podcast about I asked him the question, what would it take to get into outer space? Not like literally, but figuratively speaking, getting away from all the gravity and negative suppressors of people and things that can mess with you. When can you get that amount of money or that amount of whatever it is? And he said people aren't ready for that discussion. He said that's just something the answer doesn't people don't like the answer to that question and I'm like, well, what would it take? You know? And I started thinking about rocket fuel. Rocket fuel is what it would take. Take it all that stuff, converting it and fuel your way up there. And then once you do that, you remove all that stuff out of your way. There's nothing to stop you and you become unstoppable and indestructible. And that's the thought that started going through my head and I started obsessing about it. I'm like, I got to write this. So when I did that, I'm like the only person that would make sense to be writing the forward for this book is Grant. I don't know if he does afterwards. I don't know if he charged me. I don't know anything. I'm going to make it happen, though. And that's what I started thinking all the time. I just dwelled on it, wrote it down and. Book is almost done, and I made a phone call and there are some details that went into doing that and I just got done and his name is on the cover of the book is for Written Joe: Yeah, Mike: By Grant. Joe: Yeah. Mike: So that adds to credibility that I may not have had before, but the content in the book is just so powerful, man. It's just I actually can be honest with you about something like like I'm always honest, but like just totally transparent. I read that book over and over again during the editing process. Right. And I got so sick of it and because I've read it so much, but then I haven't read it in a while and I went back and my team, we go through in the morning and we'll pick a passage to read out of it just to see what what we come upon. And I don't even remember writing some of the stuff. I'm just like, wow, this is like this is really good stuff. Joe: That's cool, Mike: So it's a weird Joe: Yeah. Mike: It's a weird mind game when you're writing a book and then to see the actual finished product. It's a good time. Joe: That's really cool, yeah, I look forward to reading it, I it's, you know, just talking with you, I can tell we're in sync on a lot of this stuff. You're ahead of me because you wrote a book and I haven't done it yet, but I know that it's a good process to go through. Where did you figure out where you wanted to start in the book in regards to your life? Mike: So, you know, I started share my story that I share with you and I have other parts of my life in there, too, that are just crazy, blew people's minds. But I really what I did was I started writing in my phone while I was on airplanes and I would just write ideas in my phone and and I would write stories that happen in my life. And then my podcast, we transcribe the podcast episodes, the first few that were a monologue style, and we just created a framework. And then it doesn't look anything like it started. That's how I got started with it and just started, you know, what kind of what went into me, what am I made of? And I just went into that and started sharing it. And then the lessons that broke off from each of those things, because, you know, a lot of people have been through there's people that have been through a lot more than I have. But my story is pretty crazy. Like there's some stuff that happened to me that nobody could imagine going through. But I'm still here, brother, and I'm still going hard. Joe: I hear you. I see that and you brought up a good point and one of the videos that I watch where you said people discount their story, right? They don't think, why would anybody care? It's not that Mike: Yeah. Joe: Special. Well, when were you able to actually take your own thoughts as part of your own story and make that switch where you said, wait a second, you know, what I've gone through is important. If it can help one person in the world, that's value enough. I mean, when did you or did you not ever doubt that your story was powerful? Mike: No, so I would I never shared it and I saw Pete Vargas share his story on the 10x growth conference stage in twenty nineteen, I'm sitting there watching and this is the first big stage, I think, that Pete was on. He was nervous and scared and his face, you could tell, is sweating and he would tell you this. I'm friends with Joe: Mm Mike: Him, so Joe: Hmm. Mike: It's not something I'm talking about. Joe: Yeah, no, no. Mike: But I thought to myself, I'm watching that. I don't know who he was at that time, but he was telling a story about his father and he was like really connecting with me and the relationship and how he grew up in a rough spot. And then they came back together and how it all worked out. And I'm like, wow, this is just like powerful. I felt like everybody else disappeared in the place and it was just him talking to me. And I'm like, I need to learn how to do that. And if he can do it, I know I could do it. That's what went through my head. And I told the guys I was with when we got in the car afterwards, I'm like, I'm going to be on that stage. I'm going to share my story one day and I know I can do it. And so then I started sharing the story of one person, two people, five people. And they were like, that's all. I really can relate to that. Then I said, Well, shit, I need to go to ten million people Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: If I could do it and how can I do that? And that's when I started obsessing about getting known and sharing that story. And, you know, I was able to talk to Pete after that and actually learn from him how to share your story. And but I shared that that that story about seeing him in the audience and how everybody just disappeared and how he connected with me. And so it's pretty powerful stuff, Joe: Yeah, Mike: Man. Joe: That's really powerful, but that's got to be a little eerie to just be sitting there Mike: The. Joe: And all of a sudden it's just like a movie where everything around you blurs out and it's just Mike: Yeah. Joe: The two of you. Yeah, Mike: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Something real light like question I have for you. The logo is it is a logo. And I'm going to take a guess and I'm probably going to be wrong. And you're going to say, well, nice try, Joe, but does it have anything to do with the Lynch? Mike: So the sirocco, the blue. Joe: Yeah. Mike: Yeah, so it's just upside down, see, and in two hours that are, you know, for Cerak and then it just has a little dude in there holding up the world, if you can see him. That's what it has now. It doesn't. I Joe: Ok, Mike: Didn't see that. So linchpin, Joe: Only because Mike: Huh? Joe: When I read some stuff from you talking about, you know, in some of the verbiage that I read about you and on your website, you mention Mike: Yeah. Joe: The word linchpin. I can't remember the context, but it was. Mike: Yeah, no, you know what, I. Joe: And then when I looked at a picture of a lynchpin, I was like, wait, it is Mike: I Joe: Round. Mike: Got to Joe: And Mike: See what a picture of a linchpin Joe: You Mike: Looks like Joe: See Mike: Because Joe: Now Mike: Because, Joe: I have Mike: You know, Joe: You thinking. Mike: Like that's. Yeah, I got to look at this because maybe maybe, yeah, maybe it does, Joe: The. Mike: So I didn't design the logo myself I had professionally done, and maybe he had that in mind as well. Joe: Only because it's mean you could kind of say it a little bit. I don't know. Mike: Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying, Joe: Right, Mike: Yeah, Joe: It's Mike: No, Joe: Round Mike: I didn't Joe: With Mike: Have Joe: The Mike: That. Joe: With the thing through it, and I'm thinking, OK, well, maybe it's kind Mike: Yeah. Joe: Of hinting towards it and and I Mike: Now, Joe: Said, Mike: It was really just the sea Joe: Yeah. Mike: And the two hour and holding up the world and helping lift up the Joe: That's Mike: World, Joe: Cool, Mike: That's what Joe: That's even cooler, so you can Mike: The. Joe: Throw my idea right out the window, Mike: Now, Joe: But Mike: I Joe: I Mike: Like that, I like that. Joe: Do I do some upfront investigation of the person I'm talking to in the life and all of that stuff. And I saw that, you know, because you're doing your mortgages. And I saw that Jennifer is in real estate and I don't Mike: Yeah. Joe: Know if she still is, but. Mike: Yes, yes. Joe: So that's a really cool synergy between the two of you, first of all, I think that probably works really well. But just for the people in the audience who had a great relationship with their significant other, how important has that been in the balance of your life, especially what you went through as a young, you know, a young man being able to have that support in and you found the love of your life and it's you know, there's that whole synergy there between you. Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's it's everything, I mean, like I said, I made a joke about trying to earn her spending with that, but then on the day she does a great job, she did she was a stay at home mom for a while until our youngest was in school. And then I said, you know what? I'm going to try to you know, we've got to figure out something because I'm giving deals away Joe: Uh huh, Mike: To people. Joe: Yep. Mike: And, you know, it would be great if you get a license and she ended up doing it. And she's just the type that if she gets into something, she goes hard with it. And she did great the first two years, just fantastic. I didn't even realize how much money she made last year until I saw ten ninety nine. I'm like, wow, you did great. But she's just phenomenal and aligns well with our business. Obviously I don't do mortgages much anymore. Joe: Yeah. Mike: I don't do it all. I just I work on the business maybe an hour a day. My team runs the day to day. They do a fantastic job. And so but it aligns well, obviously in a lot of our people, their spouse got their real estate license, too, because it aligns so well. Joe: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mike: So, yeah, but but at the end of the day, we are you know, I'm very clear with what I'm trying to do, my dreams. And she is clear on the fact of her dreams and the fact that she's willing to support me and run through fire for me. And Joe: Yeah. Mike: It's just a great feeling because I can't do it without her, obviously. Joe: Yep, yep, I just wanted to sort of bring that up, because I think it's important I have the same sort of relationship with Joel Mike: And Joe: And Mike: It's Joe: My significant Mike: Awesome. Joe: Other. So it's Mike: Yeah. Joe: To me, it's super important. And with what happened with covid, you know, a lot of things just stopped. Right. And Mike: Mm hmm. Joe: Changes were made. And so she got furloughed from doing her day to day job and has not been brought back. But she's always had this dream of doing photography. And so now I basically have said to her, you are not going back and you are going to from this point forward until whenever the world ends for you, you're going to follow your dream. So I Mike: Awesome. Joe: Think it's important. Right. And to Mike: Yeah. Joe: Support each other and it's nice to see that you have that same relationship. Mike: Yeah, so, so, so important that it aligns I mean, so much conflict comes from just not being aligned with the mission, Joe: Yep, Mike: You know, Joe: Yep. Mike: And I think that people need to realize that their personal dream, their mission, I call it their purpose, their mission. It's it's more important than anything when it comes down to it really is. Joe: Yeah. Mike: And that's why it's so important to share that with your partner, to make sure that they're on the same page with you. Joe: So let's talk about that. I'm sure I'm probably older than you at this point, but we're Mike: Yeah, Joe: At Mike: Definitely, definitely. Now Joe: The. Mike: I'm 40, I'm 40 for some, I'm Joe: Oh, Mike: A Joe: My gosh, I'm so Mike: Young Joe: Old, Mike: Pup, Joe: I can't. Mike: But I am going on 18 years of marriage. This May so. Joe: Congratulations, that's awesome, yeah, Mike: Thank Joe: Joel Mike: You. Joe: And Mike: Thank Joe: I Mike: You. Joe: Are 20, I think, at this point. Mike: Ok, cool, congrats. Joe: Yeah, I turned fifty nine this past February, so, Mike: Oh, man, I Joe: You know. Mike: Can't tell. I really can't Joe: Yeah, Mike: Tell. Joe: Well thank Mike: Maybe Joe: You. Mike: That's why that's why you shave your head, because that way you can't see any Joe: That's Mike: Gray hairs. Joe: Exactly, exactly right. They got my eyebrows Mike: Hey, Joe: Are still dark, Mike: Look, I'm with you the way the. Joe: So do you ever look at where you are now and you look back and go? I mean, and I think we've talked about this with some of the great people, like, you know, we can bring up David Meltzer again because he's just he's like one of my mentors. I love the guy at the Mike: Is Joe: Death. Mike: Awesome. Joe: You know, what is what's the saying? Something like the the teacher. The teacher appears when the student is ready, Mike: Yeah. Joe: Right? Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah, teachers. Joe: Yep. Mike: Yep, exactly. Joe: And it's the same thing with life. Like things come when the time is right. And some people would argue against that. Some people would say whatever. But you just started on this path now, right. Something flipped when you're 40, when your stepfather passed away, it said there's you know, and you might have felt that your whole life because you people like you and I always were pulled towards something. Right. We're entrepreneurs. We've always worked towards a greater goal of whatever. Do you ever look back and go, God, I wish I had started this sooner? Or is it like, no, it's this is the time. This is the right time. It's happening now. You know, I'm interested in what your thought process is on that. Mike: Well, I'm curious, asking the question, you must have felt some kind of feeling about that in the past, maybe. Joe: I constantly go like I had, I chased another dream up until this point, and that Mike: Yeah. Joe: Dream didn't happen for me and I openly admit all the time that I didn't put in the work to make that dream happen. I'm Mike: The. Joe: I'm a trained you know, I went to college for music. So my whole life has been surrounded by music. And one day I was going to tour the world and be this famous drummer for and I always use the example because I love his music. John Mayer. Mike: Yeah. Joe: That never happened for me because I know now I can look myself in the mirror and go, You didn't put in the work. You didn't put in the Mike: Yeah, Joe: Tent. Mike: The commitment, Joe: Yeah. You Mike: Yeah. Joe: Didn't do the ten thousand hours. You Mike: Yeah. Joe: You would rather had gone down to the college campus bar and had a bunch of beers and chicken wings with your buddies Mike: Yep. Joe: Instead of going back into the practice room and spending another four hours at night. So I am fine with I get it now, but now Mike: Yeah. Joe: I'm trying to take like the rest of my life and make it amazing and live much Mike: Yeah. Joe: Bigger. And so I am at the stage right now doing that change, shifting Mike: Mm hmm. Joe: My my frame of mind. I know the world is abundant. I know that everything you know, I just have to look towards the good of everything. And the more I focus on the good and the abundance and the gratitude, more of it just keeps coming in. In the last two months, it's been incredible for me. And so and it's I always was the oh, woe is me. Like I work my ass off. Why am I not getting that? Why am I not Mike: Yep, Joe: Doing that? So Mike: Yeah. Joe: That's why I asked you this question Mike: Yeah, Joe: When that, Mike: Yeah. Joe: You know, was the shift with your with Mike: Yeah. Joe: Your father, your stepfather passing away and you just saying when you said you felt it in your heart, you were like, I need to do something bigger. Was that the pivotal point for this? Mike: Yes, it was, and I did look back and be like, man, I cannot believe when I started finding out things and becoming aware of things, I cannot believe I didn't start this sooner. I didn't know that. Like, I just felt like I had wasted I went through a period of time where I felt like I wasted time and time is so valuable. And I said, you know what? I don't know how much longer I have on this planet, but you know what, at this point, the window keeps shrinking. I got to pick up my urgency. I got to move faster. I got to demand more and be louder and be more impactful and be just more intense than I would have had to if I started a long time ago, that's all. And so at first I did look back and with some regret. But then I quickly got out of that and said, OK, what have we got to do to get this done in the window that I do have left? So, yeah, I definitely and that was the pivotal, pivotal point, of course, working towards it my whole life, not knowing it. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, there's a story in the Bible and they made a movie about it with Steve Carell about Noah's Ark. You know, it was told over some years he took to build this big arc and he didn't really know why he was doing it, he was just being told to do it by God. If you believe in God, Joe: Hmm. Mike: Which I do, or if it's intuition or whatever. And he got these animals and people were laughing at him and discouraging them and he just kept doing it anyway and building a ship in a place where there's never rain. Joe: All right. Mike: And did it make sense, it didn't seem to make sense at the moment, but he kept doing it and he kept being committed and doing it and doing it and doing it before you know it. The rain came, washed everybody away, and he survived with all the animals that he had and his family. And so I look at that lesson and I started to see this now. I started to see that the things when I'm committed and obeyed to my purpose, my mission, and I filter things through that, whether it's the people I hang out with, my actions, my words, my thoughts, my environment, when I start to filter through that mission. I'm obeying what I'm supposed to be doing and things just magically work out and I start to see opportunities everywhere, but when I don't do that, they're missing. And so you don't need to know what the end game is necessarily. You should be shooting for something, but just be looking for the opportunities. As long as you're obeying your mission and filtering everything through your purpose or mission or whatever you want to call it. Joe: Yeah. All right, well, that makes me feel good that I'm not the only one that had some regrets, so thank Mike: The. Joe: You for being vulnerable and saying that because I definitely have gone through it and I have like I said, I'm older than you. So I think, you know, think, Mike: None of us are alone, Joe. None of us are, you Joe: Ok. Mike: Know, I've anything that you go through, there's somebody else out there experiencing it for sure. Joe: Right, and I think that's what you're a lot of what you talk about is it's so important to share your story because it literally could help one person, which would be a huge help. You never know where they are in their state of mind. And if it lifts them, that's awesome. But imagine being able to help tens of thousands of millions of billions of people. Right. So I understand that's what the goal is for people like us who want to do that. So I I wish you the best of luck in doing that. And and same Mike: Thanks. Joe: With myself. Mike: Yeah, Joe: They've Mike: You, Joe: Got Mike: Too. Joe: To get it done. Mike: That's right, Joe: Ok, Mike: That's right. Joe: So you said something earlier about the book, which is the name of the book is Rocket Fuel. And you said it's May, May 3rd. Mike: Yeah, May 3rd, Monday, May 3rd, it's coming out on Amazon, and, you know, it should be a best seller based on we have we presold it. So I'm thinking that it's not going to have a problem being a best seller, number one best seller. Joe: Yep. Mike: What we shall see. But I'm going to do a bunch of lives that day, Instagram and Facebook lives, and just have some fun with it Joe: Cool. Mike: And celebrate. Joe: Ok, cool, so let's talk about it a little bit. Mike: Sure. Joe: You said something earlier that I thought was really cool, which was taking you said something about taking whatever comes in and not putting in it in the trunk, but putting it in the fuel tank and making rocket fuel. So explain Mike: Yep, Joe: That again Mike: Very Joe: To me, because Mike: Good. Joe: I I loved Mike: Yeah. Joe: It when you said I was like and I didn't even write it down. Mike: Yeah. Joe: I was like, no, that's got to go up here in my brain. So I would love to Mike: Well, Joe: Hear that again. Mike: Well, when you want something in life and things come your way to stop it or slow you down, if you remove a one thing, obviously that's going to help. But removing is not good enough for me. So I take all that stuff. Haters, people that discourage me laughed at me. What I'm trying to do, screw ups of my own people trying to screw me, all that stuff I just stored in my fuel tank. And usually people put it in their trunk and that weighs them down. You know, most people quit on their dreams because other people are talking Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: About them and saying, no, you're not the same. Why are you doing that? In all kinds of different things? I take all that and say, you know what, like here's an example, by the way, I stored in my tank, my fuel tank, to convert it into rocket fuel rather than my trunk, where it weighs me down. And some of the people closest to me, you know, like some of my business partners and friends and they know who they are. I talk to them about it. And I said, you know what? You keep saying the stuff like, hey, why don't you go do your podcast? Hey, you know, just this stupid digs like that, right? At the end of the day, they're trying to get at me, but they're really just talking about themselves, reflecting upon themselves and the fact that they should be doing that and they're not. And so I know that. And I tell people, you know, you want to say that, great, you're not going to achieve what you think you're going to achieve because all you're doing is giving me more fuel and I'm going to push it even harder. So when somebody says that to me, I'll do it on purpose, where I'll push harder and then I'll show it up in their face a little bit more to about. They're seeing so many posts on Instagram, I'll make sure I send it to them in a direct message, because that way it shuts them Joe: Yeah, Mike: Up Joe: Yeah, Mike: For Joe: It's weird, I don't Mike: Not Joe: Understand, Mike: Being. Joe: I don't understand, like people want to bring you down to their level, right? We deal with that all the time. And and social media has done so much to expose those people. And I just don't understand why they can't be happy for you. But they. Mike: Well, they can't because so I've already realized this in my mind now I know this, it's not them personally, it's their mind. And what it's happening is they just the subconscious mind just justifies where you are. It's trying to justify the truths that you told yourself and when something comes in to threaten that. You have to basically there there things fire off to protect their subconscious beliefs, and so it's not really them personally that's doing it and that's why you can't take it personal. You need to understand it. And then when they're doing it, you need to lay it out to them and let them know, hey, listen, I know what's going on here. I get it. You're where you are and you're trying to justify where you are. And you're saying this stuff to me. I don't take it personal, by the way. I use it as fuel. So thank you. And if you want to say more, continue to give me fuel. Great. But I would rather be able to help you. On break the like, just open up your truths and change them, change your beliefs. And expand your mind and see what you can achieve instead of worrying about what I'm doing and that's the way I handle it, I don't really get fired up or angry or take it personal. It's just a situation where they're going through it. And I think we've all been through it Zoom. I think I'm more understanding of it, Joe: Yeah. Mike: But I will not. But if they don't listen to me when I talk about that, I will not spend time with them because I'm not going to spend time with people that don't align with the mission. Joe: Totally agree. So the book Rocket Fuel coming out May 3rd on Amazon, who is this book for? Mike: Specifically, this is for people that have gone through things in life. And they feel like they keep getting held back or slowed down by things are stopped and they're just they're just done with it. They're they're at the point right now where they've had enough. They're getting sick of where they are and they want to do something about it. And they are looking for that breakthrough that that that superpower, because really it is it's like John Maxwell, House leadership, because this thing is so powerful. And I validated it so, so thoroughly that it's a law, it's the Rockefeller law. And so it's for people that are just sick and tired of being where they are. And they want to advance. They want to have a better life, life of their dreams. And I believe, like I said, my mission is all people are unstoppable to live in a life of their dreams. And so that's what's for. Joe: Yeah, and I saw that it seems like part of the focus is about past pains and obstacles and how you you basically help with the book to to change, take people and turn it around and say, you know, like you're saying, use those things as rocket fuel to get you to the next level. So don't lean on them. Don't have them in the trunk, don't have them as baggage, but instead take what you've learned, take what has happened and convert it to rocket fuel by doing whatever you talk about in the book. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Right. Mike: Yeah, the magic, the magic, here's the magic, right? The magic is when you have something happen and you get that feeling in your chest, that's where it hits me, by the way, like something Joe: Hmm. Mike: Bad happens and like this speed to which you can recognize that and convert it and look for opportunity. That's when you master the Rockefeller law. That's what it's all about, the longer time it takes, the more doubt creeps in, Joe: Yeah. Mike: A more negative energy creeps in, the more victimhood creeps in. And the missed opportunities happened during that period. So you want to shrink that window to as little as short as possible because we all feel it. We're all going to still feel it when something bad happens at first, but recognize it as fast as possible and start to look for the opportunity, not play the victim role, take responsibility for everything. Joe: Yeah, that's great. OK, I want to honor the time we have that we so we're going to do an hour or so. I want to just go through this real quick. So you have your own podcast, which is what are you made of? Which is on the wall behind you, where you interview. I assume, you know, other entrepreneurs and people that have amazing stories to tell and share. You release one week, twice a week with a human. Mike: Well, it started out once a week and then I had so many that I was doing, I had to do two weeks. Right now we're on a two week schedule. Joe: Ok. Mike: So, yeah, I just load up. I go hard, man. Like, if I see somebody I want to show, I go after him like an animal. I get them on the show and I don't care how many I've already had in the can. I just still just keep loading them up Joe: That's awesome. Mike: And uh. Yeah. So. Joe: Ok, cool. Besides that, you are you do some performance coaching, correct? You do some coaching in general, you Mike: Yeah. Joe: Are doing some speaking. You're going to continue to to build that Mike: Yeah. Joe: That part of your career. You're going to be on stage with Grant one of these days. Mike: Well, yeah, but so the coaching part, I want to do, the coaching part of switching that into, you know, I still have a couple of clients, but really focusing on the tech side of things and developing these entrepreneurs and young entrepreneurs into this tech world and using my specialty performance and business coaching and what have you into that, not getting paid directly for it. But but from the companies that I'm developing, Joe: Yeah. Mike: I'm really focused on that. And then I was on a 10x growth stage this past March. Joe: Oh, congratulations. Mike: Let me tell you, it took me two years to step on that stage. Joe: Hey, Mike: Thank you. Joe: That's awesome. The tech thing is it is there more that you can tell us about it or a way that people can find out about it or a. Mike: Yes, so the best thing to do, really, I mean, if you if you message me and follow me on Instagram, you're going to see all kinds of stuff coming out here very shortly on it. But I have a tech product called Blueprinted. It's being printed. This is my the one I co-founded. And this product basically, I looked at digital training and video training and I saw, like, how ineffective Joe: Mm Mike: It was Joe: Hmm. Mike: And the fact that only 20 percent of people actually complete the courses. So that means the people that are marketing these courses that are good at marketing are making money without concern for the Joe: Correct, Mike: Success Joe: Yeah. Mike: Of their student, their clients. And I thought that was an ethical problem. And I looked at why people get bored. They don't finish it, they get distracted, they don't retain the information. Or when they get done, they're like, what's the next step? Like, what am I supposed to do? Where do I put that Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: Where where do I take that and how long do I do that? And so I thought to myself, what if there's a way to have a project management based software technology that has a marketplace where people that have had success can come in and algorithmically step by step, put the success steps to what they've done, whatever vertical, Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: Build that blueprint in our platform and then sell it on the marketplace to to people that want to know how to be successful in that area. So it could be anything from a business to a podcast to digital marketing agency, whatever it is. Because if you look if you're going to build a house, you wouldn't want to watch a YouTube video. And on building that house, Joe: All Mike: You'd want the blueprints. Joe: Right. Mike: So this is a market disrupter, industry disrupter. And I can also see another industry being created from this, like there's web designers when websites came out. Well, there's going to be a lot of people that don't want to build their own blueprints. They want to take the content and give it to somebody and have them do the blueprint for Joe: Mm Mike: Them. Joe: Hmm. Mike: So there's going to be a whole industry just on blueprints. And so, yeah, this is a phenomenal thing. And it's coming out hopefully in the next 60 days, give or take. And I'm just fired up to get it in people's hands, man. Joe: That's great, man. You got a lot of irons in the fire. I like Mike: Yeah, Joe: It. Mike: But Joe: That's Mike: Thank Joe: Awesome. Mike: You. Joe: All right. So I want everybody to go and check out your podcast. The book is released on May 3rd called Rocket Fuel. Get in touch with you on on any of the social media. What's the best way to get in touch with you Mike: Instagram, Joe: On. Mike: Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, either one, but Instagram, it's Michy Cerak. Joe: Like you see rock on Instagram. Mike: Yep. Joe: Perfect. All right, man, this is a pleasure for me. I love talking Mike: Metohija. Joe: To another person Mike: Yeah, buddy. Joe: And it was great. And I really wish you a ton of luck with the book. I'll make sure when this episode gets released, I'll have a cover of the book. This will also go like you do on your podcast, will go to the YouTube channel so people will Mike: Thank you Joe: Be able to Mike: To. Joe: See it. I'll put the link to the Amazon in there. Anything else I can do to help? Let me know. But it was a real pleasure to speak with you. I appreciate Mike: Well, Joe: Your time Mike: Thank Joe: And. Mike: You. Thank you, Joe, I appreciate it was a great interview. Great questions and I really enjoyed it. Joe: Thank you, ma'am. You take care. Good luck with the book. Good luck with the podcast. Good luck with the tech software and Mike: Thank Joe: Everything Mike: You. Joe: Else. And just have an amazing year. Mike: Thank you, you, too, bye. Joe: Thank you.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Mike: So we're talking about ideal hotels. What do you think is an ideal hotel for you?Erina: That's a tough question but when I choose a hotel I would look at where the hotel's located.Mike: Right.Erina: And also the food. So as long as the hotel is surrounded by nature, you know, preferably on the water.Mike: OK.Erina: And maybe some mountains in the back and if the food, the breakfast and dinner and all the food that they have is amazing, I'm good, I'm set.Mike: Now what about the facilities? I mean, you know, hotels have various facilities whether it's gyms or movie rooms or computer rooms that allow you to do, you know, the internet and various things. You know some hotels have pools. Would those be things that you would want in your ideal hotel?Erina: Oh, yeah. Gym, I'm not so interested in it because I can, you know, play sports outside when I'm surrounded by nature. Why would I be, you know, inside working out?Mike: Right.Erina: But in terms of swimming pool, I'm actually interested because when I was looking at pictures, I don't know which country it was, but there's an outdoor pool, infinity pool, that looked like it was connected to the ocean.Mike: Oh, wow.Erina: And it was just so beautiful and, you know before I thought why would I swim in the swimming pool when I have an ocean in front of me but, you know, if there is a swimming pool like that at the hotel, I would definitely stay there for a long time.Mike: Right. Now, what about spa facilities? You know, massages and different spa treatments. Is that something that would interest you in your ideal hotel?Erina: Oh, yes, yes, for sure. I'm so into massages and yeah, I would definitely want massage room and spas in the hotel. That would be perfect.Mike: OK. And, you know, there are some really expensive hotels that offer the service of a personal butler. Do you think that would be necessary for you in your ideal hotel or would that be one amenity that you could do without?Erina: I think it depends but I don't really, when I'm staying at the hotel I would usually, you know, want to be alone and want to enjoy my time with my family or my, you know, my husband or myself that I actually don't want anyone following me everywhere I go. So, you know, to a lot of people it might be that's a good idea, you know, it's a nice treat to have but I am personally not up for that.Mike: OK, well it sounds like a pretty nice hotel you've just described.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Mike: So we're talking about ideal hotels. What do you think is an ideal hotel for you?Erina: That's a tough question but when I choose a hotel I would look at where the hotel's located.Mike: Right.Erina: And also the food. So as long as the hotel is surrounded by nature, you know, preferably on the water.Mike: OK.Erina: And maybe some mountains in the back and if the food, the breakfast and dinner and all the food that they have is amazing, I'm good, I'm set.Mike: Now what about the facilities? I mean, you know, hotels have various facilities whether it's gyms or movie rooms or computer rooms that allow you to do, you know, the internet and various things. You know some hotels have pools. Would those be things that you would want in your ideal hotel?Erina: Oh, yeah. Gym, I'm not so interested in it because I can, you know, play sports outside when I'm surrounded by nature. Why would I be, you know, inside working out?Mike: Right.Erina: But in terms of swimming pool, I'm actually interested because when I was looking at pictures, I don't know which country it was, but there's an outdoor pool, infinity pool, that looked like it was connected to the ocean.Mike: Oh, wow.Erina: And it was just so beautiful and, you know before I thought why would I swim in the swimming pool when I have an ocean in front of me but, you know, if there is a swimming pool like that at the hotel, I would definitely stay there for a long time.Mike: Right. Now, what about spa facilities? You know, massages and different spa treatments. Is that something that would interest you in your ideal hotel?Erina: Oh, yes, yes, for sure. I'm so into massages and yeah, I would definitely want massage room and spas in the hotel. That would be perfect.Mike: OK. And, you know, there are some really expensive hotels that offer the service of a personal butler. Do you think that would be necessary for you in your ideal hotel or would that be one amenity that you could do without?Erina: I think it depends but I don't really, when I'm staying at the hotel I would usually, you know, want to be alone and want to enjoy my time with my family or my, you know, my husband or myself that I actually don't want anyone following me everywhere I go. So, you know, to a lot of people it might be that's a good idea, you know, it's a nice treat to have but I am personally not up for that.Mike: OK, well it sounds like a pretty nice hotel you've just described.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Mike: So we're talking about ideal hotels. What do you think is an ideal hotel for you?Erina: That's a tough question but when I choose a hotel I would look at where the hotel's located.Mike: Right.Erina: And also the food. So as long as the hotel is surrounded by nature, you know, preferably on the water.Mike: OK.Erina: And maybe some mountains in the back and if the food, the breakfast and dinner and all the food that they have is amazing, I'm good, I'm set.Mike: Now what about the facilities? I mean, you know, hotels have various facilities whether it's gyms or movie rooms or computer rooms that allow you to do, you know, the internet and various things. You know some hotels have pools. Would those be things that you would want in your ideal hotel?Erina: Oh, yeah. Gym, I'm not so interested in it because I can, you know, play sports outside when I'm surrounded by nature. Why would I be, you know, inside working out?Mike: Right.Erina: But in terms of swimming pool, I'm actually interested because when I was looking at pictures, I don't know which country it was, but there's an outdoor pool, infinity pool, that looked like it was connected to the ocean.Mike: Oh, wow.Erina: And it was just so beautiful and, you know before I thought why would I swim in the swimming pool when I have an ocean in front of me but, you know, if there is a swimming pool like that at the hotel, I would definitely stay there for a long time.Mike: Right. Now, what about spa facilities? You know, massages and different spa treatments. Is that something that would interest you in your ideal hotel?Erina: Oh, yes, yes, for sure. I'm so into massages and yeah, I would definitely want massage room and spas in the hotel. That would be perfect.Mike: OK. And, you know, there are some really expensive hotels that offer the service of a personal butler. Do you think that would be necessary for you in your ideal hotel or would that be one amenity that you could do without?Erina: I think it depends but I don't really, when I'm staying at the hotel I would usually, you know, want to be alone and want to enjoy my time with my family or my, you know, my husband or myself that I actually don't want anyone following me everywhere I go. So, you know, to a lot of people it might be that's a good idea, you know, it's a nice treat to have but I am personally not up for that.Mike: OK, well it sounds like a pretty nice hotel you've just described.

PTC LiveWorx is one of the biggest gatherings of up-and-coming XR tech in the industry. With all sorts of amazing future tech demos, PTC’s Executive VP of AR Products Mike Campbell understands how businesses might want to implement the most far-out features of XR technology right away. But he says there’s plenty AR can do perfectly right now that more industries should take advantage of. Alan: You’re listening to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today’s episode is with Mike Campbell, executive vice president of Augmented Reality Products at PTC. Mike leads the Vuforia product team, and is responsible for driving the product and technology strategy of PTC’s leading solutions for the development of augmented reality applications. You can learn more about the work they’re doing at ptc.com. Mike, welcome to the show. Mike: Hey, Alan, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. I’ve been really, really looking forward to this, because I went to LiveWorx in… was it June? Mike: June, yep. Alan: My God. I had no idea, first of all, how big PTC was and how important Vuforia and your augmented reality strategy is going to be and is becoming to all sorts of different industries. I got to fix a tractor. I got to work on an ATV. I got to look in retail. Is there any industries that this won’t affect? Mike: Well, PTC’s focus is really in the industrial enterprise domain. And I would say across all of the verticals there — heavy equipment, automotive, aerospace, medical devices — I mean, all of those places are ripe for transformation, thanks to the power of augmented reality. Alan: It’s amazing. You even had a boat there. Mike: We did, we did, yeah. One of our customers is Beneteau. Alan: Yeah. So let’s start from the beginning here. What is PTC? What do you guys do? Where did it come from? Let’s start there. Mike: Ok. So PTC is a billion-dollar plus software company headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts. We have been around for a long time and we got our start back in the late 80s, early 90s by revolutionizing the 3D solid modeling industry. Basically, we invented a better mousetrap that allowed companies to create products virtually in 3D much faster and more effectively than ever before. Fast forward from then, we not only have a 3D solid modeling CAD offering, we have a great offering used in engineering for lifecycle management. And about 10 years ago, we recognized the trend of the Internet of Things, this explosion of connectivity and ubiquity of sensors, and companies wanting to leverage that information so that they could create products and manufacture products and service products better. We invested pretty heavily at that time. And once we did that, we were thinking a lot about this idea of IOT and products broadcasting information about themselves in the form of digital data. And we were thinking about our 3D heritage and we recognized that augmented reality was a great way to unlock some of that digital data in the context of the physical world, where you do your work. And that’s really what got us into AR. I have been at PTC — as you said — for a long, long time. And I’ve been involved in our AR journey since the beginning and it’s been a fantastic ride. Alan: Vuforia was an acquisition. Was that something that you guys made a decision to– can we build this in-house, or should we just acquire it? How did that come about? Mike: So we were th

PTC LiveWorx is one of the biggest gatherings of up-and-coming XR tech in the industry. With all sorts of amazing future tech demos, PTC’s Executive VP of AR Products Mike Campbell understands how businesses might want to implement the most far-out features of XR technology right away. But he says there’s plenty AR can do perfectly right now that more industries should take advantage of. Alan: You’re listening to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today’s episode is with Mike Campbell, executive vice president of Augmented Reality Products at PTC. Mike leads the Vuforia product team, and is responsible for driving the product and technology strategy of PTC’s leading solutions for the development of augmented reality applications. You can learn more about the work they’re doing at ptc.com. Mike, welcome to the show. Mike: Hey, Alan, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. I’ve been really, really looking forward to this, because I went to LiveWorx in… was it June? Mike: June, yep. Alan: My God. I had no idea, first of all, how big PTC was and how important Vuforia and your augmented reality strategy is going to be and is becoming to all sorts of different industries. I got to fix a tractor. I got to work on an ATV. I got to look in retail. Is there any industries that this won’t affect? Mike: Well, PTC’s focus is really in the industrial enterprise domain. And I would say across all of the verticals there — heavy equipment, automotive, aerospace, medical devices — I mean, all of those places are ripe for transformation, thanks to the power of augmented reality. Alan: It’s amazing. You even had a boat there. Mike: We did, we did, yeah. One of our customers is Beneteau. Alan: Yeah. So let’s start from the beginning here. What is PTC? What do you guys do? Where did it come from? Let’s start there. Mike: Ok. So PTC is a billion-dollar plus software company headquartered in Boston, Massachusetts. We have been around for a long time and we got our start back in the late 80s, early 90s by revolutionizing the 3D solid modeling industry. Basically, we invented a better mousetrap that allowed companies to create products virtually in 3D much faster and more effectively than ever before. Fast forward from then, we not only have a 3D solid modeling CAD offering, we have a great offering used in engineering for lifecycle management. And about 10 years ago, we recognized the trend of the Internet of Things, this explosion of connectivity and ubiquity of sensors, and companies wanting to leverage that information so that they could create products and manufacture products and service products better. We invested pretty heavily at that time. And once we did that, we were thinking a lot about this idea of IOT and products broadcasting information about themselves in the form of digital data. And we were thinking about our 3D heritage and we recognized that augmented reality was a great way to unlock some of that digital data in the context of the physical world, where you do your work. And that’s really what got us into AR. I have been at PTC — as you said — for a long, long time. And I’ve been involved in our AR journey since the beginning and it’s been a fantastic ride. Alan: Vuforia was an acquisition. Was that something that you guys made a decision to– can we build this in-house, or should we just acquire it? How did that come about? Mike: So we were th

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Clare: Hello this is Clare from the United States, I am talking with Mike from Singapore about obesity and diet in our countries. America is famous for well infamous for being one of the fattest countries in the world. Mike, you said that in Singapore diet is something of an issueas well, can you please explain?Mike: Right, well we have all the usual burger joints, Pizza Place, all the fast food basically in Singapore are also and because a lot of us are busy working so naturally this food actually seem like a good idea because it saves us a lot of time and if you're working in a city like Singapore, during lunchtime, you don't have time to basically queue with everybody for food and stuff ... so, fast food are actually a good alternative to get your lunch. And on top of that, we have what we call, in Chinese, we call it "Kopitiam". What it means is "coffee shop" in English and these coffee shops they don't serve, they serve coffee also but a lot of it is actually local delicacies, and Singaporean food are famous for being delicious but very, very high in cholesterol.Clare: Well can you give me an example of a dish?Mike: OK, one of the famous dishes is actually originated from I think Malaysia or Indonesia. It's called "Nasi Lemak". Nasi Lemak is Malay for "rice". What this food ... what Nasi Lemak is actually it consists of fish, which is fried fish and fried egg with coconut rice and ...Clare: What is coconut rice? I've never heard of that.Mike: Coconut rice is actually normal rice cooked with, I think, coconut milk, if I'm not wrong and so rice gives off a very, very nice fragrance and we just call it coconut rice. And this coconut rice is, as you can imagine, very very high in cholesteroland ...Clare: Right, and sugar tooMike: Right. So Nasi Lemak is one fine example. Another example is probably "char kway teow". Char Kway Teow is actually a Tawainese word for fried noodles. So this char kway teow is basically Chinese rice noodles with some fish cakes and with a lot of chilly and bean sprouts and they use a lot of ... I think it's black sauce, Chinese black sauce. Actually I'm not really sure what's the American equivalent. So, just like Nasi Lemat previously, this char kway teow is also very, very high in ...Clare: In cholesterol.Mike: Right.Clare: Although it sounds really, really good. I ate before coming here but I'm hungry again!Mike: And I think most of the delicious food are high in cholesterol.Clare: Because frying makes everything taste better.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Clare: Hello this is Clare from the United States, I am talking with Mike from Singapore about obesity and diet in our countries. America is famous for well infamous for being one of the fattest countries in the world. Mike, you said that in Singapore diet is something of an issueas well, can you please explain?Mike: Right, well we have all the usual burger joints, Pizza Place, all the fast food basically in Singapore are also and because a lot of us are busy working so naturally this food actually seem like a good idea because it saves us a lot of time and if you're working in a city like Singapore, during lunchtime, you don't have time to basically queue with everybody for food and stuff ... so, fast food are actually a good alternative to get your lunch. And on top of that, we have what we call, in Chinese, we call it "Kopitiam". What it means is "coffee shop" in English and these coffee shops they don't serve, they serve coffee also but a lot of it is actually local delicacies, and Singaporean food are famous for being delicious but very, very high in cholesterol.Clare: Well can you give me an example of a dish?Mike: OK, one of the famous dishes is actually originated from I think Malaysia or Indonesia. It's called "Nasi Lemak". Nasi Lemak is Malay for "rice". What this food ... what Nasi Lemak is actually it consists of fish, which is fried fish and fried egg with coconut rice and ...Clare: What is coconut rice? I've never heard of that.Mike: Coconut rice is actually normal rice cooked with, I think, coconut milk, if I'm not wrong and so rice gives off a very, very nice fragrance and we just call it coconut rice. And this coconut rice is, as you can imagine, very very high in cholesteroland ...Clare: Right, and sugar tooMike: Right. So Nasi Lemak is one fine example. Another example is probably "char kway teow". Char Kway Teow is actually a Tawainese word for fried noodles. So this char kway teow is basically Chinese rice noodles with some fish cakes and with a lot of chilly and bean sprouts and they use a lot of ... I think it's black sauce, Chinese black sauce. Actually I'm not really sure what's the American equivalent. So, just like Nasi Lemat previously, this char kway teow is also very, very high in ...Clare: In cholesterol.Mike: Right.Clare: Although it sounds really, really good. I ate before coming here but I'm hungry again!Mike: And I think most of the delicious food are high in cholesterol.Clare: Because frying makes everything taste better.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Hello, Mike.Mike: Hey.Todd: Now, Mike, you are diabetic.Mike: That's right.Todd: OK, so that means you have diabetes.Mike: That's right.Todd: Can you explain what diabetes is?Mike: OK, basically, your body... everybody has an organ in their body called a pancreas. Your pancreas produces a hormone called insulin and insulin coverts your body - the sugar you take into your body - it converts it into energy. Now all food you eat, all sugar.... all drinks you drink, they all are basically sugar. They have sugar in them, and they come into your body, it's digested and it changes into plain sugar. The insulin changes that sugar into energy, and then for diabetics their pancreas stops making insulin, so you body just collects all this sugar and it can't get rid of it, but it has no energy, like no fat, so diabetics would typically start to lose weight, and they're peeing... going to the bathroom all the time, and the reason is cause the excess sugar that's building up in their body.Todd: Now this is something you've had since you were a child?Mike: That's right. I've had it for over 25 years. I got it when I was about twelve years old.Todd: Wait a minute! So you're not born with it? It just suddenly one day, you became diabetic.Mike: That's right. Yeah. It's... They're not sure why. They still don't know but it's probably partly genetic, so I think if you have it in your family there's a chance you can have it yourself and these days, people are, you know, getting it more and more.Todd: Right, so how is your life different, that being a diabetic?Mike: Well, of course, I have to be much more careful with my diet. I think probably the most important thing, if anybody's diabetic, listening to this, the most important thing is to make sure you're always checking your blood sugars, and making sure that your blood, that your blood sugar levels are controlled. That's the most important.Todd: So, that's the main thing you have to do?Mike: Yeah, absolutely.Todd: And how do you check that?Mike: Well, I have a.... it's called a glucometer, and you prick your finger with a little needle and the blood comes out, you put it on a little strip, and the strip goes in the glucometer and it gives you a reading of your blood-sugar level.Todd: But basically you still have a normal life. You know, your life isn't different compared to normal people - other people's.Mike: Yes.Todd: Right.Mike: Of course. Yeah, things are pretty much normal, except for me in general, but my lifestyle and everything else is the same.Todd: Thanks, Mike.Mike: Sure

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Hello, Mike.Mike: Hey.Todd: Now, Mike, you are diabetic.Mike: That's right.Todd: OK, so that means you have diabetes.Mike: That's right.Todd: Can you explain what diabetes is?Mike: OK, basically, your body... everybody has an organ in their body called a pancreas. Your pancreas produces a hormone called insulin and insulin coverts your body - the sugar you take into your body - it converts it into energy. Now all food you eat, all sugar.... all drinks you drink, they all are basically sugar. They have sugar in them, and they come into your body, it's digested and it changes into plain sugar. The insulin changes that sugar into energy, and then for diabetics their pancreas stops making insulin, so you body just collects all this sugar and it can't get rid of it, but it has no energy, like no fat, so diabetics would typically start to lose weight, and they're peeing... going to the bathroom all the time, and the reason is cause the excess sugar that's building up in their body.Todd: Now this is something you've had since you were a child?Mike: That's right. I've had it for over 25 years. I got it when I was about twelve years old.Todd: Wait a minute! So you're not born with it? It just suddenly one day, you became diabetic.Mike: That's right. Yeah. It's... They're not sure why. They still don't know but it's probably partly genetic, so I think if you have it in your family there's a chance you can have it yourself and these days, people are, you know, getting it more and more.Todd: Right, so how is your life different, that being a diabetic?Mike: Well, of course, I have to be much more careful with my diet. I think probably the most important thing, if anybody's diabetic, listening to this, the most important thing is to make sure you're always checking your blood sugars, and making sure that your blood, that your blood sugar levels are controlled. That's the most important.Todd: So, that's the main thing you have to do?Mike: Yeah, absolutely.Todd: And how do you check that?Mike: Well, I have a.... it's called a glucometer, and you prick your finger with a little needle and the blood comes out, you put it on a little strip, and the strip goes in the glucometer and it gives you a reading of your blood-sugar level.Todd: But basically you still have a normal life. You know, your life isn't different compared to normal people - other people's.Mike: Yes.Todd: Right.Mike: Of course. Yeah, things are pretty much normal, except for me in general, but my lifestyle and everything else is the same.Todd: Thanks, Mike.Mike: Sure

How to live forever the Fasting Episode   0- 1:00   Jody: Guys, I don’t want to die.   Matt: Shut your mouth   Jody: Sorry.  I’m just scared.   Mike: Seriously, keep your pie hole shut   Jody: What did I say?     Matt: You’re not hearing us.  Just don’t eat, man. You can talk.  Just quit shoving calories down your gullet.   Jody: And I’ll live forever?   Mike: Well…….maybe………   1:00 - 2:40   Mike: Ok, so no you’re not going to live forever, but if you want to extend your life, then honestly, simply eating less is probably the absolute best way to do it.  And that’s a pretty cheap, easy intervention.   Matt: Except it’s not completely simple. Yes, calorie restriction has to been shown to really lead to increased longevity in a lot of animal models.  It not only leads to longer life, but better longer life as well and extends median and maximal life span in rats, mice, fish, flies, worms, monkeys, and yeast.   Jody: That’s really exciting.  I can’t wait to tell my pet yeast and flies. They’re gonna be so pumped.  What about humans? That’s what I happen to be. Or pretty close to it.   Mike: Great point.  Yes, it’s pretty difficult to replicate some of these studies in human.  You can double a fly’s life span in a study and it only takes about 2 weeks to get results and no one is crying over not being able to go out for pizza with their friends.  So, it’s both hard to extrapolate this data, and it’s hard to repeat in humans.   Matt: Right, but we we do know a few things…...we think.  The fact that we see this effect in multiple species means it “probably” applies to many other species not studied, including us because it doesn’t seem to be a species specific adaptation, and when it applies to primates, it usually applies to us.  And there was that really great U of Wisc study of primates where they restricted calories by 30%, and the monkeys were living to be the equivalent of like 130 in human years. And, they were living better! Less calories reduces metabolic rate and oxidative damage and improve age-related markers like insulin resistance.  So, you don’t just live longer. You actually age more slowly, which is different. It’s better.   2:40 - 3:50   Jody: Sold.  I’ll just cut 30% off my cheesburger and fries and live forever with the amazing, disease free body I have now.   Mike: Well…….if it was that simple we wouldn’t be talking about it.     Matt: You’re gonna rain on our parade and talk about the brain integrity study, aren’t you.   Mike: Yep.  It’s almost like you and I have discussed this before.  Jody, before you or your grey mouse lemur primate go balls to the wall with calorie restriction you should check out the study at Nature.com just this year.  Yes, these lemurs lived longer.  50% longer. So, translating that to humans that’s like going from 80 to 120, and they seemed to live better like the other studies with reduced aging-associated diseases and preserved brain white matter. BUT, they had accelerated loss of grey matter in the cerebrum.     Matt: Ok, ok.  So, yes, Jody probably doesn’t have much grey matter to spare. But what does this mean exactly? They still had all those benefits, just like all the other studies as well, and this one, single downside. Seems like the balance of benefit to harm is still pretty heavily in the benefit category, right?   3:50 - 4:50   Mike: Well, probably.  And like you and I have discussed in the past, we may be able to moderate or eliminate that downside by getting a little more clever than a simple, strict 30% calories restriction forever.   Jody: The suspense is killing me.  Any chance we skip the talk of IGF, gene transcription, protein synthesis modulators, etc and just tell me what to do.   Matt: We got you.  We’ll give you some action points, but let’s geek out just a bit more for the science nerds out there.  Let’s dig into this lemur study. I love this study because these primates are very similar to humans, not just metabolically, but also when it comes to their brain aging.  They get amyloid lesions, which correlates to Alzheimer’s in humans, so we think they’re a very good model to compare to. So, let’s discuss. Jody, why would you care about your grey matter and if it atrophies?   Jody: Seems bad.  What do you mean?   Matt: Well, you’re brain isn’t going to look worse in a bikini with atrophied grey matter.  Your thick skull has it hidden. So, why do you care?   4:50 - 5:40   Jody: Well, I don’t want to pee my pants and forget my kid’s name when I’m old.   Matt: Exactly.  It’s obviously the effect that’s important.  And luckily for us, they studied that’s it. The headline of the story is that the grey matter atrophied, and that’s what everyone was talking about.  But when you look at these monkeys’ performance on motor and cognitive tests they actually didn’t really have a drop off. So, I would absolutely hate for anyone to throw the baby out with the bathwater based on this and say not to calorie restrict because of this MRI finding that no one showed actually had a clinical effect.   Jody: So…...it doesn’t matter if the grey matter atrophies.  Or it does matter.   Matt: That’s an easy answer.  I have no idea. I’m just saying, we have real clinical benefits, and there are what LOOK like negative effects on MRI, but absolutely no proof of clinical negative effects.     Jody: So, you’re not worried about grey matter atrophy?   5:40 - 6:50 Matt:  I definitely didn't’ say that.  I want my grey matter to be plump and robust as possible if I had a choice, but I don’t want to give this more credit than it’s due. You’ll notice that CR actually had sparing effects on the white matter.  So, I have no idea what this means. Performance wasn’t affected one way or the other in this small primate study. There’s clearly a big benefit to calorie restriction, and if we somehow can mitigate this quote-unquote problem, then I’m all for it.  If I figure out how, then I’m all in. Otherwise, I’m still a big fan of CR. Let’s just talk about how exactly now.   Jody. Yes, lets.  Because the more I think about it, I’m not sure I actually want to cut 30% off my cheeseburger the rest of my life.   Mike: Well, I don’t think you necessarily have to.  You see the reason CR works is because, we think it reduces things like the igf-1 axis and the tyrosine kinase pathway. Both of these functions are active in the fed state and can lead to aging, cancer, diabetes, heart diseases. But CR and fasting also works by activating cellular mechanisms for autophagy and apoptosis. Autophagy means to eat one-self.   Jody: Dude, that doesn’t sound good.   6:50 - 8:40   Mike: I know, but what if your cells are just eating the weak broken-down parts of themselves. That's an oversimplification of the process, but basically calorie restriction induces a fasting state that leads to your cells looking to themselves for nutrients and energy. They automatically activate autophagosomes which scavenge the cell for broken proteins, old organelles, mitochondria, and other structures in disrepair. In essence, it’s a way for your cells to be out with the old and in with the new. Without fasting, or calorie restriction, you’re cells don’t go into autophagy and don’t get the chance to clean out themselves. Apoptosis, is similar, although it happens on a higher level, leading to cellular destruction of old broken cells and eventually replacement with new ones. Both, mechanisms occur in response to CR or fasting and are the panacea of longevity research right now. The idea being that cell rejuvenation and regeneration leads to management of and prevention of chronic diseases such as diabetes, CVD, Alzheimer's, autoimmune diseases, basically anything that can kill you.   So, getting to my point, you don’t have to activate these pathways with strict chronic calorie restriction for the rest of your life, turns out you can turn these pathways on and off relatively quickly, and still gain some of the benefits without losing 30% of your calories. For example, anybody that follows this literature knows about the man, the myth, the legend.  Valter Longo. He’s shown pretty good results with his fasting mimicking diet, which is not as difficult as traditional fasts, probably has the same benefits, and I have personally used………..   8:40 - 12:35   Matt: Ok, so I have some issues with the FMD. My first issue is that they sell a product to go along with it.  Now, when I first heard this I completely dismissed the whole thing outright. Honestly, it made me a little mad. I had always felt like the CR data was not only very convincing because of its sophistication, but also because I’m very, very skeptical of medical research as a whole because there’s just so much stinking money from pharmaceutical companies and so many conflicts of interest that it’s hard to trust.  But what could be more free from conflict than something that is the absence of consumerism or paying for pills. Who benefits from you buying and eating less? So, it just really ticked me off to see a product all of the sudden tied to the research. Of course, I then found out later that Dr. Longo donates his shares to a non-profit and doesn’t take money from it. So, I have massive respect for Dr. Longo and his work and I’m not suggesting anything nefarious of the man, but I’m still a little skeptical of this product.  I don’t think it should be hard for people to get the same benefits, just as easy, without buying something. Having said that, I totally get that having a pre-packaged meal may mean higher compliance and benefit for more people. I get it. There’s just something about eating food from a wrapper that will always bother me, especially if I can get the same results without doing that. So, for me, what I recommend to my family and do myself is a similar 5 day FAST with homemade bone broth instead of their packed product.  Obviously, you have to be careful about your protein intake in general if you want to true benefits of fasting and the autophagy, but someone with my metabolism can take a pretty good amount of bone broth and get those results.  We’re not going to go into the signaling and issues around too much protein right now. I really don’t think we’re approaching those levels of protein with what I propose. And I feel comfortable having my mom, who doesn’t have my metabolism take 12-16 oz of bone broth per day during her fasting period.  And, honestly, there are so many great benefits of such a nutritionally dense food as bone broth that I prefer that to their packaged product even if both were free. I think it’s a better choice personally. All that collagen, minerals, etc. Yes, I understand that making bone broth is more difficult than buying the products.  But if you could see the look on my dog’s face when she gets the leftover bones, that’s priceless man. Of course, you could totally do a 5 day water fast if you’re super hard core. But one of the things I liked about Longo’s most recent study is that he had a 75% compliance rate. I do not think that would have been possible with a strict fast.  And no reason to torture people if we really could get similar results without the pain.   12:35 - 14:00   Jody: Ok, so 5 days per month of FMD, either with their product as a support like bone broth.  I would love to have your glowing skin and youthful joints, Matt, by getting that extra collagen protein in my diet.  What about intermittent fasting? Useful? Do that also? Instead of this?   Matt: Well, define intermittent fasting. What do you mean?   Jody:  I mean, skipping breakfast basically.  Eat dinner at 8p and don’t eat again until noon the next day.  So, 16 hour fast each day.   Matt: Right, so that’s what most people mean with IF.  I think a better term is just time-restricted feeding. And I’m a huge fan.  I do that exact protocol, and I try to restrict my feeding window to as small as possible.  8 hours, from noon to 8 is good, but if I can get it down to 6 hours from 2-8 or even 4 hours and eat only between 2-6pm, or even just eat one big meal in the evening then I think there are great benefits to that.  Studies have shown that to be an independently positive thing to do for body composition and other markers even if you eat the exact same amount of calories. So, yes, doing this is great regardless of whatever else you do with more prolonged fasts.   14:00 - 15:15   Mike:  I think it’s important to recognize the differences though between time restricted feeding and prolonged fasting or a fasting mimicking diet. To truly activate autophagy you need to be in a fasting state, and for the most part, we think you need to diminish your glycogen stores. Now that might be possible if you throw in a hardcore workout into a short fast, but for the most part, we think it takes 2 days or more to activate autophagy. I have not seen or heard of autophagy occuring at any meaningful level with just 24 hours of fasting. And not with time restricted eating. Not to say those are bad for you, just they don’t activate autophagy. Personally, I do both. Time restricted eating, and less regularly, I’ll go a FMD or a prolonged fast. That way you get the metabolic and hormonal advantages of time restricted eating, along with the apoptosis, autophagy, and longevity advantages of prolonged fasting. 15:15 - 19:30 Matt:  Plus when you refeed after a prolonged fast you get stem cell activation that re-grows healthy cells leading to organ and tissue rejuvenation.  So, that’s why I don’t straight 30% calorie restrict every day like in these studies. That’s a great study protocol to apply to rats or monkeys for years at a time.  But that’s tough. It sucks to eat 30% less of the cheeseburger the rest of your life. I think it’s much easier to time restrict my calories, but still totally feast at the end of a long day, and then only occasionally muster up the willpower to do a prolonged 3-5 day fast.  Most days, I’m active. 4 kids, multiple jobs. I need the calories. But time restricting both gives me health benefits and more freedom with my time honestly. Having to only worry about 33% to 66% as many meals as other people means I can spend that time and energy on reading esoteric studies on time restricted feeding.   (Discussion about when to eat during the day between Mike and Matt.  What time is the best time to eat based on the science and what works for your family and life situation)   19:30 - 21:25 Jody: Sweet, I’m sold.  So, tell me EXACTLY what to do?   Matt: Well, I think we’re close to agreement, but here’s where it gets tricky.  Mike and I agree on a lot of things but animal fat is not one of them.   Mike: Yeah, I’ve got the genetics that prevent me from managing dietary saturated fat appropriately, so I go with Longo’s vegetarian version of the FMD, plant based products and protocol. When I’ve done the FMD, I’ve done 800 cal/day for 5 days. I usually skip breakfast, just have black coffee. Then have a small lunch and dinner. Usually soup and a salad. Lots of veggies, maybe some pasta in the soup, or lentils. Sometimes some hummus and carrots. But the overall goal is the same. I go for 50% calories from fat, 40% from carbs and 10% or less from protein. The low protein is key so you don’t activate the IGF-1 axis or tyrosine kinase pathway. You need a relative amino acid   21:25 - 23:00   Matt: And I’m not against that.  I just think we can do better. Look, I eat the vast majority of my calories from plants and am a huge believer in the healing powers of plants and all the phytochemicals and benefits of a plant based diet.  But I also believe we’re totally evolved to derive big benefits from the right type of animal nutrients. Grass fed, humanely raised, homemade bone broth is my jam. I say follow the guts of the protocol with respect to total calories, but I’m gonna give you my bone broth I make.  My bone broth has about 100 calories per 10 oz. 5g fat and 7g protein. And I want you to eat super nutrient dense foods the rest of the time that have amazing benefits for detoxification (broccoli), brain health (sardines and walnuts), and sanity (coffee)   23:00 - 25:35 Here it is Day 1: 1100 calories 32 oz (2 jars) - 320 calories - (lots of pink himalayan sea salt, pepper, and some turmeric) 16 oz broccoli with 1 tbsp grass fed butter - 250 calories (100 calories from butter) 3/4  cup walnuts - 375 calories 1 can of sardines in EVOO - 150 calories All the black coffee you want and all the water you can drink   Macros: Protein g - 12 walnuts, 22 bone broth, 12 brocoli, 18 from sardines (64 total) Fat g - 12 from butter, 39 from walnuts, 1.5g from broccoli, 18 from bone broth, 9 g from sardines Carbs: 8 from walnuts, 30g from broccoli, Fat: 64% protein: 22%  carbs: 14%   Day 2-5: 800 calories Same, but reduce to ¼ cup walnuts   Walnuts optional on all days - probably better results without walnuts   FMD percentages: Day 1: fat - 56%, protein - 10%, carbs -34% Day 2-5 - fat 44%, protein 9%, carbs - 47%   25:35 - 27:00   Mike:  To summarize: The macronutrient percentage for fat and carbs likely doesn’t matter, but the protein does. You should keep your protein intake somewhere around 7-10% of total carbs.   The overall benefits you’re going to get from an FMD, just to simplify is: Immune system improvement Apoptopsis of precancerous or cancer cells Weight loss and improved body composition Reduction of CRP and oxidative stress Better mental performance from increased brain-derived neurotrophic factor Improvement of glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity Healthier and probably increased stem cells -all leading to increased longevity…….unless you get hit by a bus.  So, try not to get hit by a bus.   Jody: Cool.  Those are pretty specific instructions.  So, I’m going to do this for 5 days and then what do I do the other 25 days. And I’ll get blood tests at day 1, day 5, and day 30, right?     27:00 - 28:45   Matt: Yep.  Come to the clinic and we’ll hook you up.  And you probably need to take a month between each 30 day test to get back to your baseline.  That way we take the scienciness of this from a 1 out of 10 up to a 2 out of 10. Twice as scienc-ey if my unscientific math is correct. For the other 25 days you should eat normal, but time restrict to 8 hours.  Noon to 8pm as your eating window. That work for you?   Jody: Yeah, I can do that.  What about other people listening to this.  Should they do this? They should probably consult their doctor, right?   Matt: Sure.  Or don’t. Honestly, that statement you see on everything of “consult your doctor” annoys the crap out of me.  It tends to imply an all knowing doctor that just doesn’t exist. I mean, if you’re sick in general, have a physician you really trust and really knows you and stays super up to date with this literature, then great.  Go for it. But I know lots of doctors. And I know lots of non-doctors who just keep up with what’s new. Medicine in general is always at least a decade behind the latest research. So, someone who cares, and reads can be just as informed as a doctor.  So, never trust someone just because they’re a doctor. I know this will be unpopular with other doctors, but I’d say 95% of what I know and believe I know despite my medical school training. They told us that 50% of what we learned in medical school is probably wrong.  In my experience over the last decade I’d say that’s gross underestimation.   28:45 - 30:05   Mike: Come on, I think you’re doing two things here.  First, you’re underestimating the number of doctors out there who really care and keep up with the literature.  And you’re overestimating the number of informed patients out there who are going read 100 books and 1000 articles per year like you and I do because we love it. Most people just want to be told what to do.   Matt: Ok, you’re right.  I just don’t want people to give doctors too much credit. The M.D. behind the name means nothing. Ask your doctor what their favorite books on nutritional science are.  If they rattle off 4-5 immediately, then take their advice. If they’re obese and can’t name 1, then please go to someone else, or do the research yourself. That’s all I’m saying.  Also, if you’re going to do a straight water fast, then I’d say you do need medical supervision. Labs, monitoring, etc. Fasting isn’t dangerous, but like anything, the more hard core you go on it, the more risks there are that come along with those extra benefits.  I think if you’re doing this FMD protocol, this is going to be safe for 95% of people who are healthy, not pregnant, etc. If you’re nervous, sure, consult your doctor. Also, this isn’t medical advice. I’m talking to Jody only here. This is informational only. I’m talking to you, lawyers out there.   30:05 - 31:00   Jody: Cool.  So, what if I want to eat optimally those other 25 days?  What type of diet in general should I do? And any drugs I can take to live forever?   Mike: Ha!  Do you have a few more hours?  Matt and I can debate the merits and pitfalls for keto, paleo, vegan, etc. Matt, what’s the most optimal diet?   Matt: Yeah, let’s actually tackle that in the next podcast.  I know we both have some pretty strong beliefs about that. I think we agree on 90% of things, but it’s really fun to argue the the finer points.  In general Jody, do this: As Michael Pollan says in the Omnivore’s Dilemma:  Eat real food, mostly plants, not too much.  And as a nice heuristic to use, don’t eat it if your great, great grandmother wouldn’t recognize it.  So, nothing out of a box or wrapper or with a list of ingredients you can’t pronounce.   31:00 - end Mike:  I can get behind that.  Would love to hash out all the controversy around saturated fat, cholesterol, gluten, dairy, and dive deep into personalized diets based on genetics.   Matt:  I can’t imagine anything more fun.  And, yeah, the pill question. That’s gonna take some time.  We’ll dive into that also. And while we’re at it, we should talk about the other things that may increase lifespan and quality:  specific molecules (aka drugs), meditation, exercise, etc. Those things deserve their own specific podcast, though. For now, “let food be thy medicine”, Jody. Master that, and we’ll talk about some next level stuff just coming out that may have a really profound effect on longevity.  I’ll bring you the food for my part of the experiment. That’s the stuff I eat every day, so I’m stocked up at all times with those things. Why don’t you take some before and after shirtless pics doing those super sexy poses people do in magazines. I think you’re gonna get some good body comp results.   Mike:  And the Prolon goods are in the mail from me.   Jody:  Can’t wait.  I’m on it.  

Intro: The Moving Picture Experts Group or MPEG, is a working group of ISO/IEC charged with the development of video and audio encoding standards. In this podcast we look at the MPEG standards and video delivery systems. Mike: Gordon, what sources are we referring to here?Wikipedia and white paper from the MPEG Industry Forum at www.m4if.org/public/documents/vault/m4-out-20027.pdf. we've also got a couple of diagrams from the Verizon website. Mike: What's the history of MPEG? Mike: Are these open standards? Mike: What's the history? Can you tell us about MPEG-1? Mike: How about MPEG-2? Mike: We don't hear much about MPEG-3 - what's up with that? Mike: Let's talk about MPEG-4 now. Mike: What are some of the advantages of MPEG-4? Mike: Let's switch gears and talk about carried video delivery systems - specifically the telcos and cable companies. How is this technology used?It's different for broadcast and video on demand (VOD) content. Let's discuss broadcast systems and look at how Verizon (as an example) is setup. Two National Super Head Ends (SHE) - one in Tampa and the other in Bloomington, IL: - Diversely located - Satellites collect video feeds - Video is converted to digital MPEG-2 and packaged in a 10-GigE payload -  SHE servers “pitch” data to the Video Hub Office (VHO) - Three OC-192 SONET (long haul) rings that drop and continue GigE to VHOs Mike: What is OC-192? Mike: OK, these video hub offices are distributed over Verizon's footprint - what happens when they get the video? Video Hub Office (VHO) ex. Burlington MA Combines: - National Channels - VOD Servers “catch” data from the SHE servers - Off-Air, program guide, public, education, and government (PEG) channels, and local ads are injected - Encrypts all content - Content sent over several 1-GigE links to local Video Serving Offices (VSO, ex. CO) over SONET (medium haul) - VSO then sends it to the OLT and then to the  PON network for delivery to customer. Mike: Broadcast is still done using traditional RF modulation methods - correct? Yes - that will change - rumor has it Verizon will be trialing IP Broadcasting this summer in Pennsylvania - just a rumor! Mike: Now - Video on Demand (VOD) does things a little differently - correct? Yes - VOD delivers IP content to the customer - it is not in RF format: - Content is requested by user via the IP network (private subnet) - Content is then streamed from the video pumps to the Video Distribution Routers (VDR) in the VHO (ex. Burlington) - VDR then sends 10-GigE links to a Video Aggregation Router (VAR) - The Video Aggregation Router (VAR) then sends it to the Gateway Router (GWR) in the VSO (ex. CO) - GWR then sends it to the OLT and then to the  PON network Mike: So - Verizon is combining Voice, Video and Data services on the same fiber? Yes - Here's another nice diagram from the Verizon website:

Intro: On March 18, FCC Auction 73 bidding round 261 ended and, after 38 days and $19.592 billion in bids (almost double the $10 billion the FCC had hoped for), the FCC closed out the auction. In this podcast we review and discuss the auction results.Mike: Gordon, can you give us an overview of the auction results?Sure Mike - this comes from the FCC auction website linked up in the shownotes. Rounds: 261 (started on 1/24 and ended on 3/18) Bidding Days: 38 Qualified Bidders: 214 Winning Bidders: 101 Bidders won 1090 Licenses *Auction 73 concluded with 1090 provisionally winning bids covering 1091 licenses and totaling $19,592,420,000, as shown in the Integrated Spectrum Auction System. The provisionally winning bids for the A, B, C, and E Block licenses exceeded the aggregate reserve prices for those blocks. The provisionally winning bid for the D Block license, however, did not meet the applicable reserve price and thus did not become a winning bid. Accordingly, Auction 73 raised a total of $19,120,378,000 in winning bids and $18,957,582,150 in net winning bids (reflecting bidders' claimed bidding credit eligibility), as shown above. Mike: Before we get into the auction results, can you give us an overview of the different spectrum blocks? I know we've done this before but - how about a quick refresher?Sure Mike - this comes from a blog I wrote back on January 14.Back in 2005 Congress passed a law that requires all U.S. TV stations to convert to all digital broadcasts and give up analog spectrum in the 700 MHz frequency band. This law will free up 62 MHz of spectrum in the 700 MHz band and effectively eliminate channels between 52 and 69. This conversion, which has a deadline of February 18, 2009, has freed up spectrum that is being split up by the FCC into five blocks: A-Block - 12 MHz, split up into 176 smaller economic areasB-Block - 12 MHz, split up into 734 cellular market areasC-Block - 22 MHz, up into 12 regional licensesD-Block - 10MHz, combined with approximately 10MHz allocated for public safety, a single national license.E-Block - 6 MHz, split up into 176 smaller economic areas So in summary, each spectrum block in the 700 MHz auction, except for the national public safely D-Block, has been assigned an area designation by the FCC. All FCC areas, along with names, county lists, maps and map info data can be found on the Commission's website linked here.Mike: How about a quick review of the D-Block again?Sure Mike, this also comes from that January 14 blog:The D-Block lately has been most interesting to watch. Early on it appeared Frontline Wireless would be one of the biggest bidders for D-Block spectrum - the company was setup for D-Block and had worked closely with the FCC on putting together specifications for the spectrum. Frontline built a formidable team including Vice Chairman Reed Hundt, who served as Chairman of the FCC between 1993 and 1997. The business plan, the organization, the technology seemed to all be in place........ On January 12 the company placed the following statement on their website: Frontline Wireless is closed for business at this time. We have no further comment. Another company, Cyren Call also looked like they were planning to bid on the D-Block Auction but did not. What happen? Rumor has it Frontline could not attract enough funders - it seemed like a good investment - or at least you may think so up front. Many are now asking if the FCC's approach to solving the public safety inter-operability problem is in trouble. Mike: OK, how about the results?Here's a summary from the Wall Street Journal:Verizon and AT&T accounted for 80% of the nearly $20 billion AT&T agreed to pay $6.6 billion for 227 spectrum licenses in markets covering much of the country. Verizon Wireless, a joint venture of Verizon Communications Inc. and Vodafone Group PLC, won 109 licenses for $9.4 billion. Dish Network Corp., which bid for spectrum through Frontier Wireless LLC, did acquire a significant footprint, winning 168 licenses throughout the country for $712 million. Satellite-TV providers are looking for a way into the high-speed Internet business to better compete with cable and phone companies. But Credit Suisse analyst Chris Larsen said in a research note that the particular segment of spectrum Dish acquired would make it difficult for the company to offer interactive wireless broadband service. He said the company could use the spectrum to broadcast data or for on-demand video. Google had indicated interest in a nationwide package of licenses before the auction, but it bid just high enough to trigger rules that will force winners of one segment of spectrum, known as the C-block, to allow any mobile devices and applications on their networks. Verizon won the lion's share of spectrum in this segment. Google had pushed for the regulation since its efforts to sell some mobile services had been stymied by major carriers, which traditionally have strictly limited the kinds of devices that consumers could use on their networks. Even before the auction had wrapped up, Google scored a victory as Verizon voluntarily agreed to open its network to devices it doesn't sell through its own retail network. Verizon released details of its new policy on Wednesday. Mike: Were there any licenses that dod not get any bids?There were 1,099 licenses auctioned and only eight did not receive any bids: A-Block: Lubbock, TexasWheeling, W.Va. B-Block: Bismarck, N.D.Fargo, N.D.Grand Forks, N.D. Lee, Va. Yancey, N.C. Clarendon, S.C.Mike: So, what will happen to these?These licenses will need to be re-auctioned by the FCC. I'm guessing they were over priced, the FCC will end up dropping the re-auction minimum bid and they will end up going quickly.Mike: What's going to happen with D-Block? The Public Safety D-Block did not meet the minimum bid and the FCC will have to decide what to do. It looks like the FCC could go one of two directions for the re-auction - drop the price or change the requirements. From the start, the public safety D-Block auction was seen as one of the biggest auction challenges...... I've expressed my opinion on the D-Block in the past........ the FCC still has some major work ahead before they can close this one out. This comes from InfoWorld: On Thursday, the FCC voted to de-link the so-called D block from the rest of the auction results. The D block was a 10MHz block that was to be paired with another 10MHz controlled by public safety agencies, and the winning bidder would have been required to build a nationwide voice and data network to serve both public safety and commercial needs. But the FCC failed to receive its $1.33 billion minimum bid for the D block, with the lone $472 million bid coming from Qualcomm. The FCC has no plans to immediately reauction the D block, a spokeswoman said. Instead, the agency "will consider its options for how to license this spectrum in the future," the FCC said in a news release. Mike: So, it looks like the big carriers won?For the most part, yes. Kevin Martin had an interesting quote in an EFluxMedia piece though:"A bidder other than a nationwide incumbent won a license in every market," FCC chairman Kevin Martin said hinting that it’s possible for a "wireless third-pipe" competitor to emerge in every market across the U.S. This would increase the competition and the first one to benefit from it will be the consumer.Things still could get interesting!

Intro: The world has changed significantly since the Internet was first created. IPv6 gives over 4.3x1020 unique addresses for every square inch on the planet, and is going to allow us to do things we've only dreamed of in the past. In this podcast we give an overview of IPv6. Mike: Gordon, before we get into the technology, can you give us an update on IPv6 history in the United States? Sure Mike, this comes from a 1-minute history of the Internet by Federal Computer week at FCW.COM Mike: So, the federal government has ordered its agencies to become IPv6- capable by June of 2008 and this is going to happen in June on our federal government networks - how about businesses? It's  happening with business too Mike.  Let's take Verizon as an example as quoted in a Light Reading post from last September. Verizon Business, which began its first phase of deploying IPv6 on the public IP network in 2004, will complete the North America region in 2008 and move into the Asia-Pacific and European regions from late 2008 to 2009. The company will operate both IPv6 and IPv4, in what is known as a "dual stack" arrangement, on its multi protocol label switching (MPLS) network core. The company also has deployed IPv6 throughout its network access points (peering facilities) where Internet service providers exchange traffic. Mike: So, what's the problem with IPv4? It's a combination of a lot of things - Microsoft has a nice set of resources on IPv4 and IPv6 - let's use that as a guide: The current version of IP (known as Version 4 or IPv4) has not been substantially changed since RFC 791 was published in 1981. IPv4 has proven to be robust, easily implemented and interoperable, and has stood the test of scaling an internetwork to a global utility the size of today’s Internet. This is a tribute to its initial design. However, the initial design did not anticipate the following: The recent exponential growth of the Internet and the impending exhaustion of the IPv4 address space. IPv4 addresses have become relatively scarce, forcing some organizations to use a Network Address Translator (NAT) to map multiple private addresses to a single public IP address. While NATs promote reuse of the private address space, they do not support standards-based network layer security or the correct mapping of all higher layer protocols and can create problems when connecting two organizations that use the private address space. Additionally, the rising prominence of Internet-connected devices and appliances ensures that the public IPv4 address space will eventually be depleted. The growth of the Internet and the ability of Internet backbone routers to maintain large routing tables. Because of the way that IPv4 network IDs have been and are currently allocated, there are routinely over 85,000 routes in the routing tables of Internet backbone routers. The current IPv4 Internet routing infrastructure is a combination of both flat and hierarchical routing. The need for simpler configuration. Most current IPv4 implementations must be either manually configured or use a stateful address configuration protocol such as Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP). With more computers and devices using IP, there is a need for a simpler and more automatic configuration of addresses and other configuration settings that do not rely on the administration of a DHCP infrastructure. The requirement for security at the IP level. Private communication over a public medium like the Internet requires encryption services that protect the data being sent from being viewed or modified in transit. Although a standard now exists for providing security for IPv4 packets (known as Internet Protocol security or IPSec), this standard is optional and proprietary solutions are prevalent. The need for better support for real-time delivery of data—also called quality of service (QoS). While standards for QoS exist for IPv4, real-time traffic support relies on the IPv4 Type of Service (TOS) field and the identification of the payload, typically using a UDP or TCP port. Unfortunately, the IPv4 TOS field has limited functionality and over time there were various local interpretations. In addition, payload identification using a TCP and UDP port is not possible when the IPv4 packet payload is encrypted. To address these and other concerns, the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) has developed a suite of protocols and standards known as IP version 6 (IPv6). This new version, previously called IP-The Next Generation (IPng), incorporates the concepts of many proposed methods for updating the IPv4 protocol. The design of IPv6 is intentionally targeted for minimal impact on upper and lower layer protocols by avoiding the random addition of new features. Mike: OK - can you list the primary features of IPv6? What makes it different? Sure Mike - this list also comes from Microsoft's website. The following are the features of the IPv6 protocol: New header format Large address space Efficient and hierarchical addressing and routing infrastructure Stateless and stateful address configuration Built-in security Better support for QoS New protocol for neighboring node interaction Extensibility Mike: Let's go through the list with a brief summary of each. Your first item on the list was the new header format. What's different? Mike: How about number 2, large address space?Mike: Number 3 was efficient and hierarchical addressing and routing infrastructure - can you describe?Mike: How about number 4, stateless and stateful address configuration?Mike: Number 5 was built-in security.Mike: How about number 6, better support for QoS? Mike: And number 7, new protocol for neighboring node interaction? Mike: And finally, number 8,  extensibility.Mike: Are there any other things you want to add to the list?Mike: Are we ready?I always look at the end devices (even though there is so much more) and, if we just look at desktops, you have to look at Microsoft.Microsoft started with the following implementations of IPv6, all subsequent versions/products continue to support IPv6:The IPv6 protocol for the Windows Server 2003 and later families.The IPv6 protocol for Windows XP (Service Pack 1 [SP1] and later).The IPv6 protocol for Windows CE .NET version 4.1 and laterThe capture and parsing of IPv6 traffic is supported by Microsoft Network Monitor, supplied with Microsoft Server 2003 and later products. Mike: This is a good overview - next week we'll get into some details on the IPv6 protocol!