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In this episode of Behind the Genes, we explore the challenges diverse communities face in accessing genomic medicine. The discussion focuses on issues including language barriers, cultural differences, and socioeconomic disparities that hinder marginalised communities from accessing and benefitting from genomic medicine. Our guests delve into successful strategies for engaging these communities in healthcare research and decision-making, highlighting the importance of building trust with groups that have historically been underserved or mistreated. The episode also emphasises the need for culturally sensitive communication from healthcare professionals and how meaningful community engagement can foster collaboration and trust within genomic research. Our host, Naimah Callachand is joined by Aman Ali, a Community Ambassador at Genomics England and Community Engagement Manager at Our Future Health, Anna Smith, Child and Adolescent Integrative Psychotherapist at Rareminds, and Moestak Hussein who works for Bristol City Council in Public Health & Communities, working directly to build and imbed cohesion, inclusion and social justice approaches in her role.   "If we talk about co-production, true co-production is really creating a power balance where there's no hierarchy. It's an empowering model. It empowers both the researchers or the person that comes in, but also the communities that participate, and you all start on the same level, on the same outcomes and the same goals and aims that you want to achieve."   You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/Bridging-the-gap-between-diverse-communities.docx  Naimah: Welcome to Behind the Genes.  Aman: It's really important to engage community leaders who are really well embedded within the communities, who are attached to organisations or institutions which are well trusted in the community as well, so that we can get a wider perspective of how communities feel about genomic medicine and accessing services that we want people to engage with.  Naimah: My name is Naimah Callachand and I'm Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm going to be joined by Anna Smith, child and adolescent integrative psychotherapist for Rare Minds, Aman Ali, a community ambassador for Genomics England, and Moestak Hussein, community coordinator at Bristol City Council. Today, we'll be discussing the disparities in access to genomic medicine amongst diverse communities. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts.  Aman: Hi, my name's Aman Ali, I am an ambassador at Genomics England, a person very passionate about health research and ensuring that diverse communities are involved in health research, and I work as a community engagement manager at Our Future Health.  Anna: My name's Anna Smith, I'm a psychotherapist. I work in private practice and also with Rare Minds, who are a company who provide therapy to people with rare and genetic conditions.  Moestak: Hi, my name is Moestak Hussein and I have a background in community development, and I'm passionate about tackling health inequalities, and building social justice and inclusive approaches to address health inequalities. I work at Bristol City Council in the public health team, and I've participated in the Bristol workshops around equity in research in genomics.  Naimah: So, let's jump in and first of all I want to talk about barriers to access for diverse communities. I want to talk about how there are language barriers, cultural differences and socioeconomic factors that impact access to genomic medicine for marginalised communities. Anna, I wonder if you maybe could talk to me a bit about this.  Anna: Yeah. So, I'm talking about the traveller community, and we refer to this community as a GRT community, which is Gypsy, Romany and Traveller, so it encompasses people in the UK, people living in Ireland as well. And some of the barriers to accessing healthcare are a lack of understanding of culture. There's been studies done where it says that people from GRT communities show up lower on all markers for poor healthcare and poor mental healthcare, and part of the reason for that is things like illiteracy. You know, you're dealing with people who can't read or write. They can't read appointment times. They don't have access to public transport. A lot of women don't drive in this community, and also women are not very well supported within the community by the people who can drive and who can get them places, because it's not seen as something that they need access to. Because the community is so closed, everything sort of takes place within the community.   In terms of genomic healthcare, access right from the start of life, if people are not accessing healthcare right from birth, they're not getting the genetic testing that's needed, so then a lot of these things don't even show up until the illness presents itself, and then accessing healthcare from there is really difficult. You know, it's something that – it doesn't happen a lot. Only 67 percent of people from the GRT community were able to get a doctor's appointment when they needed it, compared to nearly 90 percent from other communities, and that's through things like not having a fixed address. Lots of GPs don't offer temporary registration, which means that if you are travelling, you do not have access to a GP, which is your first port of call if you need any access to healthcare. So, many people from the GRT communities are using A&E services in order to get healthcare, which – you know, they are not set up for dealing with long-term life changing conditions. They're there to deal with what's right in front of them and then they move on. There's no sort of continuity of care.  Naimah: Thanks Anna, that's really highlighted a lot of barriers for the GRT community. And I wonder, Aman, if you want to come in now and maybe discuss some of the barriers that maybe the Muslim community might experience.  Aman: Yeah, I think anyone involved in medicine or anyone who's a doctor is really well respected in the Muslim community. That profession is something that every parent aspires for their children to get involved in. They at least want one of their children to be a doctor. Having said that, there's this willingness to engage with the space, but there's a lack of knowledge, which is a huge issue here. People don't know what the word genomics means or genes, or understand DNA. Some of this language is a huge barrier to understanding and then eventually accessing some of the services that could be available to people from Muslim communities. Because when we speak about Muslim communities, we're talking about a huge, diverse group of people from South Asia, from North Africa, from the Middle East, and they all have their nuances and different cultural experiences as well.  Just to kind of point out maybe one or two, most people in the UK have grown up in the UK, where access to healthcare is free, whereas this is quite a strange phenomenon for people who may have not been born in the UK and then access healthcare services in the UK. And the context being here is usually they pay for healthcare in other countries, and whenever any public or free healthcare is provided, it's usually seen as kind of not very good or suboptimum, or yeah, it's not going to be very helpful for us. So, when they see free healthcare in the UK, there's that kind of apprehension, “Actually, is this going to be worthwhile? I'm not paying for this, so it's not going to be very much good for me.” So, those are some of the cultural nuances that certain communities where healthcare is not for free in certain countries that poses a barrier.  Language in terms of speaking and reading is an issue. So, a lot of people, they may speak a language, but they don't know how to read a language. So, even when services are translated – I, for example, can speak Bangla, but I can't read or write Bangla, and not a word of Bangla at all. So for my parents, who can speak Bangla very well, their reading level is actually quite good, but I know that many within the community, they didn't get education back home, and therefore reading and writing is a challenge as well. And then you have the issue of dialects. There's so many dialects within so many different communities, so when a language is spoken or written in a particular way, if that dialect isn't your mother tongue or a dialect that you're familiar with, then that causes challenges to access as well.  Naimah: Moestak, how do cultural beliefs and values influence attitudes towards genomic medicine within each of these different cultural communities?  Moestak: I think Aman and Anna touched on it a lot, and it's about communities being able to coproduce that historically hasn't been there. The supremacy of certain communities to have a voice and be able to express how they would like to shape their healthcare, but also access to healthcare barriers have been part of having a barrier in access. And I think Aman touched on like even the term genomics, I don't think it exists in particularly my community. I come from the Somali community, and I've tried to look at historical kind of words and terms. I mean, our language only got developed in 1973, the written language, so you can imagine that there's a lot of gaps or there's other terminologies.  So, the cultural beliefs and values is also communities' recognition to be driving their own health needs and priorities is not valued within those sectors such as healthcare. I mean, we're still talking about holistic medicine. People go to their faith leaders in the first instance to have support around prayer. That's not necessarily recognised by mainstream health provision. And I think it's about how do we build on those strengths and how do we recognise that that is a really great part of communities. And it's also tradition and customs within childbirth, from birth, understanding what children and young people and families will need. I know there's customs and traditions for women to stay at home, for example, for 40 days, and those are the kind of traditions that could be built on. And I think it's about making sure that the child doesn't pick up bacteria or things like that.   So, there is an understanding and knowledge within communities of genomics. It's the awareness and the training around patient centred approaches are still missing, in my opinion. And I think that influences how people view genomic medicine. It goes back to the lack of trust and historic past abuses and cases, that communities has resulted in lower participation and a reluctancy to be part of genomic testing, but also that lack of understanding.  Naimah: Anna, did you have something you wanted to add in there?  Anna: What you were just saying about keeping it within the community, that's something that we see with the GRT community massively is everything is handled within the family, and I think that's not necessarily valued outside of that community. If you arrange an appointment with someone and the whole family turns up, it's like, “Woah, what's going on here? You know, how is this managed?” And it becomes a safeguarding issue, when actually that is how it's managed, and very often you need to get the whole family on board before you can start working with an individual. Because within the GRT communities, individuals do not exist outside of their families. Even what we're saying about language, a lot of the GRT community who live in England now speak English, but the words that they use for mental health are very different.   You talk about mental ill health, that translates as psychosis in the GRT community, whereas if you're talking about depression and anxiety, somebody might say that they've got bad nerves. So, if you come up and say, “We're dealing with mental health now,” people would say, “Well, I don't have psychosis, I don't have that, this is not an issue for me.” And it's like you're speaking different languages even though you're using the same words.  Naimah: From what all of you have said as well, it does sound like there are a lot of similarities in the barriers in each of the different cultural communities.  I wanted to move on to ask about what strategies have been effective at engaging these diverse communities in healthcare research and decision making processes.  Aman: There are a number of ways I've seen best practice take place in regards to kind of community engagement. The approaches have been one of two approaches. One, either inviting the community to come to your spaces, i.e. organising events or having opportunities where people can engage with your service. Or the alternative approach, which I think is actually more effective, is actually going to the spaces where communities are most familiar with. So, whether that's holding a focus group at a community centre, at a church or at a mosque, or engaging in coproduction with a community organisation, to come together, to come up with an idea of how to best engage communities. And I also feel like there's a difference between PPI, patient and public involvement, versus community engagement.   And those are the two major approaches that I've seen when it comes to community engagement, and I'm a big advocate of community engagement, because you're going into spaces which are authentic to the very communities that we are hoping to engage, but you're going into an unfamiliar environment as opposed to bringing that community into an unfamiliar environment, where they might be a bit guarded with what they want to share and how comfortable they feel. So, those are some reflections on good practices in community engagement.  And I think one of the key things that we need to do is understand who are the key community leaders within that community, ‘cos it's one thing being within that community, and being able to speak about that community are two different things altogether. So just to articulate what I mean by that, I live in Luton, but I've just moved to Luton two months ago, so if you ask me about what life is like in Luton, I'll be able to speak about my experience, but if I was to live here for 20, 30 years then I'd be in a better position to speak about how people in Luton live and what their experiences are like, and that's two different perspectives you're going to get. So, it's really important to engage community leaders who are really well embedded within the communities, who are attached to organisations or institutions which are well trusted in the community as well, so that we can get a wider perspective of how communities feel about genomic medicine and accessing services that we want people to engage with.    Naimah: Thanks Aman. I think you made a couple of really good points there, and I think you kind of have this overarching feeling of building trust, which is what Moestak mentioned in the previous question as well. I thought maybe now would be a good time to discuss your first responders project, Aman, if you could tell us a bit about that. It'd be good to hear the kind of developments from that community work.  Aman: Yeah, so one of the ideas that came about from engagement actually that we had with some community leaders within the Muslim community, primarily some imams, they heard about the work of Genomics England, they heard about the work of research in particular, and they were really keen to get involved even further, but they were honest in saying that, “I know very little about this space. And it's one thing for me not to know much, but then if I don't know anything then I'm not able to then advocate for this within the community. So, two things you need to help me with. One, help me understand this space, but also allow me to then be able to advocate for services or information that my community can benefit from.”  So, that's where the inception of this first responders idea came about. The idea being that community engagement happened with some imams from all across the country, where we trained them to understand a bit more about genomics, and genomic healthcare and medicine, but also to be able to navigate a number of scenarios that they may face in the community. For example, there's a mother who has been recommended by their GP to go see a genetic counsellor, but they're really worried about broaching that conversation with their husband or their family, because of the challenges that they may face. So, how would you support someone in the community when that scenario comes up? Or for example, someone like Genomics England or Our Future Health or another organisation has approached you about a research study, and they want to engage your community, how would you have that conversation with that particular organisation, advocate for those health programmes within your community?  So, we just presented a number of scenarios. But I think the main thing that we ended with was giving the imams in this particular incident the ability to signpost to services, be it helplines that are available for communities to access more information, or websites that people can access in order to understand more information about different issues to do with health conditions, or whether it be better understanding issues like cousin marriages or kind of accessing genetic testing.  Naimah: That sounds like you're empowering the leaders to advocate for healthcare and share this with their communities through this work. I wonder, Anna, is that something that you could do in the GRT community as well, like empower the leaders of the family to disseminate these healthcare messages, and how would we do that?  Anna: Yeah, I think so. I think a lot of it would need to be outreach, and there are people out there who can help bridge that gap. For example, there's a great team called Family Friends & Travellers, and if you get in contact with them and let them know which community you'd like to go into, they can help arrange, or they will come with you to go into that community. Because the GRT community, you know, is very mistrustful of anyone coming in, and rightly so. It was only in 2011 that they were included on the national census as an option to say you're from that community, so I think there's massive mistrust there of anyone coming into the community.  So, if you want to engage the leaders of the families or of the communities, you're going into a settled traveller site, there will usually be somebody who is in charge of that site, not officially, but maybe their family might be the biggest family or they might be the most important family. And there are people out there who will allow you to start to engage with that person, who can then disseminate the information. But it needs to be outreach care, and the information that you disseminate, it needs to be tailored to people who have left school at primary age, who don't have the skills to read or write, or to manage appointments or read prescriptions, or have access to that type of healthcare. That's where it really needs to be tailored.  And I think confidentiality as well needs to be tailored a lot, because gossip and reputation and shame is huge in the GRT community, and if you are seen to be engaging with someone outside of the community, that is something that can bring a lot of shame to you and your family, so it needs to be handled really, really carefully.  Naimah: Just to kind of go along with this theme of trust that you've all now mentioned, Moestak, I wonder if you could maybe comment on what strategies can healthcare organisations and researchers employ to build trust with these communities who have historically been underserved or mistreated?  Moestak: Yeah, I think I mentioned earlier about the hierarchy of power around superiority and also mistrust of medical professional generally, and I touched there on how safeguarding concerns are triggered on not understanding cultural norms and practices within communities, and misconstruing that with safeguarding. There is generally that mistrust is there. And I think what Aman touched on there is really the importance of asset based approaches, and really building on transparent and really embedding transparent and inclusive practices from the onset. I mean, if we talk about coproduction, true coproduction is really creating a power balance where there's no hierarchy. It's an empowering model. It empowers both the researchers or the person that comes in, but also the communities that participate, and you all start on the same level, on the same outcomes and the same goals and aims that you want to achieve.  And I think it's important to embed those kind of approaches, and it's Covid-19 – I mean, we took part in Bristol in King's Fund research around the community champions model. It's exactly that, about engagement, about community driving their own solutions, and being able to collectively collaborate, drive their health piece forward, but also increase the capacity of communities. We worked with clinicians who come from those communities, and it's no surprise that the uptake of covid-19 vaccine increased as a result of working with those trusted voices.   Quite often, those really effective programmes and engagement often are not funded adequately. They're not sustained. And what happens is that we constantly are having to rebuild and restart, and that really does affect trust as well with communities. And when something works, why not build on it? And even now with that Covid-19 learning from the community champion model, the resource is not there anymore. It's not valued anymore, sadly. That in itself is a risk, I think, in building the trust, but also the strength to continue that work and adapt in other ways around genomic medicine, and even increasing and diversifying the genomics data pool, helping communities understand and drive that. And that first responders project, communities being trained to capacity build and then being able to drive that within their communities, that's the only way that we're going to have effective strategies.  Aman: I think adding onto what's been mentioned, with regards to building trust, it's really important to understand the motivations of communities, and to understand what messaging is going to resonate with different communities, and it's going to be a different message for each community. You can't have the same approach for all communities. A recurrent theme that I've come across when engaging different communities is this difference between messaging which is individualistic and then messaging which is about the community and more the collective message, and how that resonates a lot more with certain communities that I've engaged with, particularly within Muslim communities. And that's something that I think is a bit untapped in regards to kind of any materials that are created, be it posters or videos or any content looking to reach out to communities.  When we did some focus groups with some communities in Watford, who are primarily from the Pakistani community but also other parts of Asia in that region, the biggest response or biggest positive response that we got was when we posed the question, “If you were to know that people who look like you, from wherever your parents are, family may be from, would you be motivated to take part in that research?” And the biggest yes came on the back of that question. And that speaks to the fact that, “If I know that my family or my community, not just in the UK but abroad can benefit, then that would really motivate me and build trust that actually you're not just here to benefit me as an individual, but you're here to benefit my community as a whole, and therefore, yes, I'm going to be more trusting of this programme and be more motivated to take part.”  Naimah: I just wanted to go briefly back, Moestak, you mentioned cultural norms, and I wanted to talk about the cultural norm in societies where maybe people may marry someone from the same ancestor, and what the societal fallout from these practices might be.  Moestak: The stigma and the stereotypes often for communities comes from those beliefs and messages that are often sometimes not even backed up with scientific evidence. It can be seen as Islamophobic sometimes of Muslim communities that practice that. But also I think what's important to understand is that concept around hereditary conditions and how that can determine one's health, and it's not really fully appreciated or desired. And so as a result, for example, a lot of people refuse to even have those early onset maternal testing for the foetus. My personal experience, I have three children, teenagers now, and I refused those tests as well, because my belief and my religious beliefs would kind of not align with being able to terminate a foetus if there were some genetic conditions. And so I think that is often not understood and made very clear to communities, and build on their beliefs and attitudes and values. And so those are the kind of cultural norms that are not fully understood.  But also the opposite side of that actually around being able to prevent a good life for somebody or a bad life for somebody, and being able to prevent genetic conditions is also part of the religion on the flipside, but again it's not creating that link. That cultural beliefs is not understood. I think also the community implications around the stigma. I mean, autism's a big issue in the Samali community, and I remember years ago when I was working in education, we had a big issue around even acknowledgement of diagnosis and referrals, and it's because of the stigma. Those perceptions do exist within communities that if someone has a genetic condition or ill health or a disease, it's almost like being a black sheep in the community. And so it's being able to build on those desires of the community wanting to be healthy and well, I think is not often understood.  Naimah: And do you think it's partly as well education of healthcare professionals to communicate in a really culturally sensitive way?  Moestak: Yes, exactly, that's exactly what it is. It's missed opportunities really that we can build on. In that particular example of autism within the community, I was able to do a really positive piece of work with the community, and building on their interest and their skills, but using my own lived experience and understanding and knowledge, and being able to inform that within education sector but also the health sector, and providing that training and upskilling. And there is unfortunately a lack of diversity within the workforce if you look at the NHS. The lower level kind of cleaning and porter staff are ethnic minorities. And so it is about using those clinicians, as I mentioned earlier, that are coming from those communities are the forefront.  We've recently had a really positive piece of work in Bristol around let's talk about MMR, and we had a cohort of unvaccinated community, a Somali community, young people between the age of 16 to 25, and we worked with a Somali clinician, who led on that piece of work, and it was absolutely amazing. The young people as a result trusted her information and took up – but again also another thing that's important is that a lot of data in the medical system is missing. I for one migrated here from the Netherlands, where I came there as a refugee at the age of three years old. My medical history is completely missing in both the UK records but also in the Netherlands, so I didn't know if I had MMR vaccine. So, it's a lot of gaps in information that people have, newly arrived communities that still need to constantly be updated and informed and education awareness raised with those communities.  Naimah: Anna, I wonder if you wanted to add anything onto that point.  Anna: It's really difficult with that mistrust and sort of how closed the GRT community is to getting that information in, and I think to getting that information understood as well and to make it seem like it's important. Because family is the most important thing, people are accepted the way that they are. You know, if we're talking about autism, people are accepted the way that they are, and it is a bit like, you know, “There's nothing wrong with my child, how dare you suggest that there is?” That testing isn't done because the access to healthcare is so difficult, because people can't register with GPs, because they can't access maternity care, they can't access postnatal care. Because they can't register with the GP, they're not on the system, and then the records don't exist. Still now there's birth records and death records that do not exist for these people within the communities, never mind medical history throughout their lives.  Naimah: I think it really highlights a lot of gaps, doesn't it? Aman, do you want to add anything to that question?  Anna: Your opening remarks is that it's a cultural norm in all societies, and we see even within the royal family in the UK, that it seems to be that any disparaging comments are targeted towards certain communities, and even then unfairly. I mean, often it's associated with Muslim communities, but I would say the majority of Muslim communities don't practice marrying someone from within the same ancestor. It's certain cultural communities who do practice this. Having said that, even that practice shouldn't be seen in a disparaging way, because it's how those communities live their lives, and so we should be respectful of that and not speak in any way disparaging towards that community. And I think we have responsibility – ‘cos obviously nationally the conversation then moves onto increased risks of genetic disorders, and so we should be very matter of fact about what the percentage increase is when it comes to the likelihood of genetic disorders within families who marry with the same ancestor.   Because what happens is, if we're not very clear with what the actual facts are with regards to the increased risk of genetic order then even within the community which practices marrying someone from the same ancestor, that figure can be inflated, and so this perpetuates fear and perpetuates the stigma even more. Whereas if we are just matter of fact, “This is the increased risk of genetic disorders,” and leave it there, then the communities can decide and they'll have a more informed position. I think the figures are an increase from two to six percent increase, but if you were to ask people within the community, “What's the increase of genetic disorders if you're marrying someone from the same ancestor?” they might think it's 40 percent or 50 percent or a really high figure. So, that's something that we need to work towards better understanding, which will lead to removal of that stigma as well.  Anna: Again, that's something that we see in the GRT community as well, there's been research done by a woman called Sally Anne Lynch into cousin marriage within the Irish travelling community, and when they tested people, they found more than 90 genetic conditions that are present within people's DNA within that community that just aren't tested at birth. And I think, you know, you're right, it's something that is not talked about, because outside of these communities it's seen as wrong and it's not seen as something that's normal. It's seen as abnormal. But within this community, it is very normal and it's very accepted. But then the testing isn't done because of the access to healthcare.  Naimah: I think it just seems like it does kind of boil down to education and educating healthcare professionals that it is kind of normal practices. Aman, did you want to add something else?  Aman: Yeah, Anna made a really good point about testing. I think there's something that is a gap in the service that we probably don't provide more widely is that, when it comes to people who practice marriage within the same ancestor in other countries, testing is very normal. So, I know there's many countries around the world where it's very standard practice and even a requirement in certain countries that you must be tested before you get married, and so maybe that's something that we can learn from in the UK.  Moestak: I think it's important to understand that some communities, decision making of consent is sometimes done by the head of the family, and I think that that is not fully understood as well, and often can be a barrier to participation. And I think that there's an element of empowerness that is needed, particularly around women that need that empowerment model around consent of decision making around their testing and genetic testing, and just medical consent.  Naimah: That's an excellent point as well, thanks Moestak.  So, I know we've touched on aspects of this already, but I wanted to finish on this question, how can meaningful community engagement foster trust and collaboration in genomic research and healthcare initiatives?  Aman: I think one of the things that I would really improve is just awareness around genomic healthcare and genomics in general. It's a learning curve that's going to happen within communities at different rates, and we need to be mindful of this because that rate will determine also health inequities that are experienced by those communities as well. So, we need to make sure that we are adequately approaching all communities to the best of our abilities. Having said that, target maybe more resourcing and educational opportunities for communities which have been underrepresented in health research and in genomic health research as well primarily, so we need to sort of prioritise certain communities in regards to our community outreach, because then we'll dispel any myths that people might have and work towards chipping away at the mistrust that certain communities may feel towards just healthcare in general, but more particularly about genomic healthcare, ‘cos genomic healthcare brings up some unique challenges and some unique perspectives within communities.  So, there's a number of fears about the future, but also misgivings about healthcare in the past as well that we need to acknowledge. So, by having community engagement initiatives, which are prioritised from the beginning and not just an afterthought, we can go a long way towards getting over some of the challenges of the past, but also not making new challenges for us in the future.   Anna: I think as a whole, the UK has got a long way to go with building trust with the GRT community. I think it's going to take some time. They still are one of the most marginalised communities. For example, in the area that I live, there was a GRT funeral going on a few weeks ago, and all the pub shut because they didn't want GRT communities in their establishments, and there is no other community or minority that that would happen with now. So, I think there is still quite a long way to go to gain the trust of the GRT community. And in terms of healthcare, I think we need to go right back to the start and learn about these communities, and understand their cultures and their practices, and how they work without that judgement. Living a nomadic lifestyle is still criminalised. There needs to be a decriminalisation around these communities before we can even start to begin to work out how to go there and allow them to access healthcare and knowledge and information around genetic conditions, and around health and mental health.   It's going to be a very long road from here, but I think what we can start doing is to start that destigmatisation. If you are a doctor and somebody turns up in your surgery identifying as someone from the GRT community, understanding the background they come from, and not having all those prejudices, you know, which is very difficult to do, to get rid of those thoughts that you already have about someone. I think we need to make a real effort to start, and I think there needs to be changes within the NHS in order for people to access healthcare better. I think the resources that are given and the information that goes out needs to be more specifically tailored to these communities if that's who you're trying to engage with, because there's so much that goes on in the community that's not known outside of the community, and it's not spoken about, and within different GRT communities as well. You know, there are different GRT communities all around the UK, and what goes on in them is not known to other GRT communities either.   So, it's about being specific with the information that you're getting out, with who you're actually targeting. And I think a bit like we were saying earlier, it's the women, you know. The women have childcare responsibilities almost all of the time, and they are the ones who bring up the children, but they're not necessarily the ones that make the decisions about the children or the child healthcare. You know, women are expected to do jobs in the morning. Women are not available before 11 o'clock in the morning. So, think about when you're making appointments for. Think about when you're going. I think it is going to be a long, long road before we get there, you know, with building trust and getting the information out there, but I think we can make a start.  Naimah: Yeah, it does seem like there is lots of ways we can start tackling it slowly. Moestak, I wonder if you had anything you wanted to add.  Moestak: As a public health specialist, you know, we've not been taught genomic medicine or genomic health at all in terms of how that can benefit and radically change the NHS and improve determinants of health, so that's a massive gap of knowledge within the healthcare sector and professionals. But I think in terms of addressing the historic mistrust, I think there needs to be an acknowledgement and a real openness around the historic, you know, abuse and unethical practices that have existed within health. There are other countries that are much more advanced in that and really embedding that within communities through pledges. That long-term kind of piece of work for me is missing. You know, it's that wider education piece that's missing that needs to be really embedded in the culture.  But I think also investing in the infrastructure in the community. Like far too often, if the long-term vision is not there, communities are reluctant to get involved and have trust within that, so I think that's an important part as well. And I think it's also about demonstrating the benefits of genomic medicine. I think that needs to be done in a community level way, through storytelling. I know that there's now a lot of development around cancer treatments around genomics, but I think it's about having those people who have those lived experiences from different communities to be able to share the benefits and demonstrate that through their way, and being appropriately reimbursed as well. I think that's really important.  I think generally, I think there's a long way we've got to go. I'll never forget when I went to Vancouver on a conference around health, and there was a lot of reconciliation there, where there was really acknowledgement, and the indigenous communities there that have a lot of health disparities were able to kind of overcome some of that and start building as a community and addressing tackling health inequalities because that trust was built and that acknowledgement from high up, from government level, all the way trickled down to local. I think also patient centred approaches around – like we mentioned, we talked about linking the cultural norms and the values and the beliefs that people have, and the skills and the assets that they have to be able to lead on these solutions themselves, that really needs to be embedded to build trust.   Aman touched on the perception around what could be done with genomic data. I don't know if Aman wants to elaborate a bit on that, but that's really important. It's a big barrier. It's how do we create transparent ways of storing data, but also use various ways of communication. It doesn't have to be traditional reports. It could be through podcasts. It could be like community messaging.   Naimah: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. Aman, did you want to come in on that?  Aman: Yeah, I think sharing the stories of the past in an appropriate setting, in an appropriate manner as well – ‘cos it's a bit of a double edged sword, ‘cos you don't want to scare people who are unfamiliar with these stories, but at the same time there's a moral responsibility for all of us involved in this space to speak about these issues, one from the perspective of acknowledging what's happened in the past, so then people feel like, “Okay, you're not trying to hide anything here,” but from the perspective of also that we need to make sure that we don't repeat some of the mistakes in the future, and that as people involved in genomic healthcare and involved in this space, that we're cognisant of these misgivings in the past, and we're cognisant of our responsibility to safeguard communities in the future.  Naimah: Okay, so we're going to wrap up there. Thank you so much to our guests, Anna Smith, Aman Ali and Moestak Hussein for joining me today as we discussed the barriers to access to genomic medicine for diverse communities, and the impact it has on these communities. If you'd like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host and producer, Naimah Callachand, and this podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital.

Tracklist: 01. Tim Green - Time Doesn't Have To Heal 02. Chicane - Sunstroke (DC Symphonic Rehearsal Mix) 03. Flowers on Monday feat. Amega - Resonate Me (Ambient Version) 04. Chicane - Leaving Town (Symphonic Rehearsal Mix) 05. ANNA & Laraaji - Receiving 06. Junk Project - Composure (Original Mix) 07. Link - Arcadian (Global Communication Remix) 08. Guy J - Lost & Found (AM Mix) 09. Envio - Time To Say Goodbye (Arksun's Filmscape Mix) 10. Three Drives - Greece 2000 (Moonwatchers Sea Of Tranquility Mix) 11. ANNA - It's All You 12. Greg Naïro - Bhurma (Ambient Version) 13. The Thrillseekers pres. Hydra - Where Oceans Meet (Part I) 14. Mr Sam feat. Rani - Surrender (John Palmer's The Sweetest Thing Remix) 15. Above & Beyond - Sun In Your Eyes (Original Mix) 16. ANNA - I See Miracles Everywhere 17. Activa feat. Lo - Leave a Light On (Extended Mix) 18. Vár Sofandi - Move Dust Through The Light 19. Sister Bliss - Sister Sister (Alaska's Blissed Out Mix) 20. Saints & Sinners - Peace (Michael Woods Remix)

We're back with a new episode in our Parenting series and we're talking about punishments, rewards, and autonomy. For most kids, life is a series of expectations: when and what to eat, when to sleep, what to learn, how to learn it. This loss of autonomy can cause disconnection with a child's inner knowing. Punishments and rewards, too, are designed to influence children's choices. How could things feel different if we didn't try to control our children? What we've found is that stepping away from that control leads to better understanding about the individuals in our families, and so much amazing learning.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Think back to when you were a child. Did you get to make many choices about your days? If so, how did it feel? Did you feel empowered? Trusted? If not, how did it feel? Frustrating? Like you weren't trusted to make good choices? And who got to define “good”?2. Were you punished as a child? If so, how did it feel? How did it play out for you? Did you spend your punishment time contemplating your “crime”? Or being angry with the person who set the punishment, feeling it was unfair? Over time, did you absorb the message that you were a bad person in general for getting in trouble? Were you more likely to continue the “crime” but hide it from your parents?3. Did your parents reward you pretty regularly growing up? If so, looking back, does it feel like they were trying to use rewards to control or behavior and/or choices? Did you find that the rewards influenced your behavior or choices at the time? What, if any, impact did that have as an adult?4. I find it so interesting to consider the relationship between a child's autonomy and their learning about themselves as a human being. I encourage you to take a couple minutes to start brainstorming a list of the things you can imagine a child learning through making choices and seeing how things unfold. I think once you get the ball rolling it may well be hard to stop!TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging, because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundations series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching, which you can explore in our Living Joyfully Shop! Follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.And if you've been listening to and enjoying the podcast for a while, we'd love it if you could take a moment to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. They can really help encourage people to take a chance and listen to the show.So, this episode is part of our Parenting series and we're going to be diving into the ideas of punishments, rewards, and autonomy and how they weave together. And while we're talking about this in the context of parenting, it's equally valuable when it comes to any relationships.So, let's start with the bigger picture of autonomy.And so that we're starting on the same page, I see personal or individual autonomy just as the freedom to make choices and pursue a chosen course of action. Fundamentally, it's how human beings learn: by making choices and seeing how they unfold. Sometimes things go smoothly, unfolding how we anticipated. And sometimes they go completely sideways. And most times, it's somewhere in between the two.But each time, we learn something. Maybe it's about the choice itself, maybe it's about the execution, maybe it's about the environment, maybe it's about ourselves—the list is vast. Yet when we've made the choice, we're learning something meaningful, or at least useful, to us. And that's at all ages, kids included.So, when someone else makes the choices for us, which often happens for kids—choices like what they can do and what they eat and who they play with and what they wear and when they sleep—they learn different things. They learn less about themselves—their likes and dislikes, how their body likes to be fueled, how they like to express themselves, how they like to explore the world, how they prefer to engage with others—and more about their parents' expectations.Maybe they feel the rub and bristle at the line or limit their parents hold for them, but, certainly when they're younger, they aren't able to explore where they might draw that line for themselves. What is their personal comfort zone around the thing?When we don't get to make lots of choices as we go about our days, we don't learn a lot about ourselves, adults or children alike.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And I'm really excited that we are talking about this! Because I think it's something that doesn't get a lot of play in parenting circles. Autonomy is such a critical piece of our human experience. And, like you said, it really is where the learning happens. Understanding ourselves and our bodies is so important to overall life satisfaction, yet we systematically disconnect kids from this inner knowing from a very young age. For most kids, life is a series of expectations: when to eat, when to sleep, what to learn, how to learn it. And so, I agree, the learning that is happening is, ‘How do I please the people around me and do what is expected?' And we learn this because it's how I survive and how I get love. You will have the personalities that will buck against it, but those personalities are often maligned and made to feel there is something wrong with them, when it's much more about the environment not being a fit, than it is that there is something wrong with that particular child. And I want to say that I understand that often the guidance given by adults comes from a place of love and protection. We want the best for our kids. We want to protect them. We want them to learn things that we think will help them in life. But it doesn't take much examination to recognize that this is just not how humans learn. How many of us have had a well-meaning parent or spouse tell us that we should be doing something this way, or, this is how it's done, or this is what's best for you? And how often did that leave us feeling disconnected from that person, misunderstood, and sometimes even just irritated at the suggestion? But we can offer our best information as part of what they take in to make their choice, understanding how different everyone is and that they may need to move through situations in ways that sometimes don't even make sense to us. That's the path to honoring each person in our lives as individuals. We can share and we can leave space for it to unfold in a different way for the person in our lives.When we have an agenda, and especially when we punish someone (as is often the case for children) for not meeting our expectations or following with our agenda, it is a huge blow to learning and autonomy and often the relationship as a whole. PAM: Oh yeah. It really is. And I want to talk more about punishments, because, while obviously affecting autonomy, they also don't often teach the “lesson” that parents really are, out of love, trying to impart.The obvious impact on autonomy is that a punishment is designed to control the other person's—most often a child's—choices. Things like, "If you do this thing I don't want you to do, I'll punish you by making you do a thing you don't want to do, like go to your room." Or, "If you don't do this thing I want you to do, I'll take away a thing that you want to do, like taking away access to your tech device of choice."In that way, it can seem a little bit like tit for tat. The thinking seems to be that trying to relate the punishment with the crime somehow makes the punishment more effective while also giving the child “time to think about what they've done.”Yet, in my experience, bringing punishment into the mix quickly focuses the conversation on the punishment: the details of the punishment (what, how long), whether it feels “fair,” and the execution (“go to your room,” “give me your tablet” and so on). And then there's the whole stage of policing the punishment: making sure they stay in their room, hiding the tablet so they don't find it, and responding to the child's pleas to end the punishment early. That focus shift to the punishment actually means that most of the child's learning is about how to navigate punishments. Not just the pleading, but how not to get caught next time, or, having learned what the parent didn't like, concocting a story that they hope will help them avoid punishment next time.Just go back and see how very little of the child's thoughts and learning are focused on the choice and action that sparked all this in the first place? What if, instead of jumping to punishment, the parent engaged in a conversation with the child? Getting curious about what they were trying to accomplish and why, talking about the context of their choice, sharing the pieces it seems they hadn't considered when they made their choice, and about how things unfolded—is this actually what they were expecting to happen? That is where so much rich and valuable learning lies.ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes. 100%. There is so much learning lost with punishment. It shifts the focus from what was done, to the parent or person who is punishing. When they're in their room, they aren't thinking about the actions that got them there. They're thinking about the person who put them there. Let's say even with an extreme example of a child or teen doing something that harms another person. Then say the punishment is to take away their device or take away their car if we're talking about a teen. The focus of the child is now on the fact that their car has been taken away and all of the problems that will cause them. They most likely will be angry at the person who is wielding this power over them. If, instead, like you were talking about, we have a conversation about what happened and empower and even help them to make amends, they feel supported and connected and are learning how to repair after a mistake. And that is a skill that will serve them in every personal or professional relationship they will have, because we will always make mistakes. Humans make mistakes! And sometimes those mistakes hurt other people.And I wanted my kids to feel my support, I know we all make mistakes. And I wanted them to know that I'd walk through the repair with them. My priority is always going to be our connection. Because it's from that place of connection that we can navigate the tough stuff that life throws our way. The minute you choose power and punishment over another person, you have lost them. They may still physically be there but they do not feel connected, supported, or understood. Life is going to throw a lot of curve balls at everyone. Learning how to stay connected through the tough stuff just makes things so much easier. And if we find ourselves reaching for punishment as a tool to control situations, we can examine when we are try to control others and see it as red flag, as a sign to step back and see where maybe we're feeling pinched, or where we're feeling controlled. Because it's so often when we're feeling controlled that we clamp down on those around us. But recognizing that, we can then turn to identifying our own underlying needs and begin to address them. We can look to the broader context. Are we feeling under-resourced? Are we feeling a bit disconnected? What's happening contextually for us and for our children? Because, to me, it's just really interesting think about, because punishment isn't a tool we use in adult relationships. Power-over is not a healthy dynamic in any relationship. So, why not start learning the skills of communication and understanding with our kids? Those are the skills they will need, so let's spend our life practicing them together.PAM: I just want to highlight one of the things that you said there, that piece that when we find ourselves reaching for control with enthusiasm, so often it's worth taking a moment to just ask, are there places in my life where I'm feeling a little out of control? Where I feel like someone else is controlling me? Because that energy, I can be shifting and turning outward. So, it's like, okay, I don't feel like I have a lot of control here. I want to get back that feeling of control and maybe in a completely different way, but these are all my emotions. So, they're balancing out in me. If I don't have it here, I'm going to bring it here. So, that is always something that is interesting to look out for when we're feeling that pull to punish.When punishment is a well-used tool in the parenting toolbox, that is the process that kids learn for navigating conflict, for navigating these kinds of situations, and will be what they reach for, as you mentioned, in adult relationships. So, no, they can't send an adult friend to their room or take away their phone, but, as I was thinking about it, they do try other versions of that, the “silent treatment,” which ignores someone like they're not there, and communicating, “I'm mad at you and don't like what you did.” But it's kind of like they've been sent to their room and, “You're out of my life. I'm just going to ignore it.” There are so many unhealthy relationship tools that adults use. They're versions of punishment. Like, how can I punish this person in my life without being able to literally send them to their room? ANNA: Right! It's that blame/fault matrix that just carries over and it's so destructive to personal relationships.PAM: Exactly. So, definitely, we want to learn different tools growing up!I also want to touch on rewards, because at first we can wonder. Rewards are positive things. How on earth could they affect a person's autonomy and learning? But that's the thing. Rewards are directly related to a thing a person, or child, is doing. And it's natural for us to reward the things we like and ignore the things we're indifferent about. Even if we're not punishing the choices they're making that we don't like, when rewards are in the mix, they still get the message.And many kids want to please their parents. They're going to pick up on those subtle cues that “making this choice and doing this thing makes my parents happy so I should do more of it,” and conversely, noticing the choices they make that aren't rewarded. So, they may choose to avoid those things, or do them out of sight so as not to feel judged by the parent's indifference.And at first we might think, “That's great, a way to avoid outright punishments while still managing to manipulate our child's choices in the direction we as parents believe are better.”But again, let's take a closer look at what they're learning and how this approach might unfold over the years. The priority becomes learning the choices the parents do and don't like. Wanting to please their parents, kids can find themselves making choices that, while they are regularly rewarded for them, they don't particularly enjoy. And I know we've all heard stories of kids who are talented in a particular area who grew up with the rewards and expectations of excelling in that sport or skill only to burn out in adulthood and needing to basically build a new life. See how the child's autonomy can be subtly, but impactfully over-ridden.If the child loves the activity, they don't need regular external rewards to keep going. Sure, we definitely want to celebrate the accomplishments along the way that they are keen to celebrate! That's the differentce. I feel like celebrations are so different from rewards. A celebration is focused on the child's wishes, while a reward is based on the parent's wishes. And just that perspective shift makes a world of difference, doesn't it?ANNA: It really does. And I think you're right. That celebrating, we're celebrating their experience, what they're loving about something, what they're bringing to us, versus the reward is this, like, “reach this point and you're going to get this,” which is so external, you know, just the complete opposite of, you know, really doing something from inside your heart and what feels good to you.And absolutely, rewards really are just the flip side of the whole manipulation/control coin. And I think our invitation today is to just consider why. Why do we need to control another person? I think one of my big growth areas years ago that took me some time was understanding that I do not know what's best for another person. Not my spouse, not my kids. I know what's best for me most of the time. Sometimes I still have to figure that out. But that's it. Just me. I can only know what's best for me. And again, I can share the things I've learned along the way, why I've made the choices I've made, what happened when things went sideways and what I learned from that. That's all super interesting information for somebody to have, but it doesn't mean the same choices will end the same way for them. It doesn't mean what works best for me will work best for them. And rewards are interesting, because they do create this external focus that I think can disconnect us with what we truly want, what has meaning for us. And like you said, if you grow up in a reward environment, is it crystal clear what is being considered “good” and what is being considered “bad”. And kids learn what is needed to get the approval of their parents, because, again, there is an innate survival mechanism at play. And my sincere hope was to empower my kids to listen to their bodies and their own inner voice to cultivate a connection with their own unique knowing. And any type of control I would throw in there, be it rewards or punishments, just served to cut them off from that knowing. And I think many of us can think back and see how we had to relearn how to listen to our inner voice and to our bodies over the year. We've spent many years navigating systems and many times family dynamics as well that wanted to control our decisions and tell us what we wanted and what we should do or even who we should be. And it is a process to figure out what we actually wanted, the person we want to be, and to separate those from all of those outside voices. And there is a different way and it fosters that inner knowing. And our children, kids are amazing and so capable! They have clear ideas of what they want and there really are reasons behind it. As we stay connected, have conversations, and learn more about them, we start to understand their choices. We start to really see it through their eyes.And as we share our needs and hear theirs, then we can start working together to meet all the needs. This isn't about handing control of the family to children. It's not about control at all. It's about everyone having autonomy over their life and time and working together to navigate being in relationship with one another. And again, I will just say, learning those skills throughout childhood, I see it in my adult daughters all the time and get feedback from those in their lives who also see that difference, because they've already had two decades of living this way.PAM: Oh, yeah. That's something I just keep saying over and over and over. Kids are so capable. Kids have reasons for the things they do. Kids are making choices, bringing together all they they know, what their experience has been so far, and they're just trying something out. So, I think that's so fascinating.Parents can be really worried. “They'll never make the right choice.” And as you mentioned, when you see through their eyes, you can see why this seemed to be a reasonable choice or a thing that they wanted to do. However, it unfolds, you can see why they went in that direction. It's fascinating and they are so capable. I love that.ANNA: And even if it goes sideways, if we're staying connected to them, then we can talk about that learning. When we're disconnected, we're not able to have those conversations about, “Whew! That went sideways. What do I want to do differently next time?” Because they're worried about being punished or they're worried about us not being connected to them. And so, it's such a lost opportunity when we use those tools of control versus connection. PAM: It's a lost opportunity, not only of learning for everyone, it's a lost opportunity for connection. The connection you feel when you're being supported by someone that you love, someone in your life who is with you when the things go sideways, where we're not worried about punishments being meted out or rewards being withheld, but we're just all there in the mess. In the moment and figuring out how we want to move through it.Life will give us lots of experiences in that way, and we will learn so much about each other and the ways that we want to move through it, or the ways that are helpful for us to process and move through it and so on. So, it is just that so much is lost when we jump to punishments. Because, like we've been talking about this whole episode, that's where everything goes, that's where the focus goes, that's where the conversation goes, that's where the learning goes, all those pieces. So, weaving together these ideas of rewards and punishments and autonomy, I've really enjoyed doing that, because I think it gives us such a richer picture of how children can learn so much about themselves and how they choose to engage with their world. It's fascinating to ponder the often unintended impact of both punishments and rewards and how they can impinge on a child's autonomy. So, here are some questions to ponder this week around these ideas. Number one, think back to when you were a child. Did you get to make many choices about your days? And if so, how did it feel? Did you feel empowered? Did you feel trusted? If not, how did it feel? Was it frustrating? Did it feel like you weren't trusted to make good choices? And who got to define good? That's another big piece. Question two, were you punished as a child? If so, how did it feel? How did it play out for you? Did you spend your punishment time contemplating your crime? Or being angry with the person who set the punishment, feeling it was unfair? Maybe you didn't get a chance to explain your perspective. Over time, did you absorb the message that you were a bad person in general for getting in trouble? Were you more likely to continue the crime, but hide it from your parents? Question three, did your parents reward you pretty regularly growing up? If so, looking back, does it feel like they were trying to use rewards to control your behavior or your choices? Did you find that the rewards influenced your behavior or choices at the time? What, if any, impact did that have on you as an adult? That's so interesting. And number four, I definitely find it so interesting to consider the relationship between a child's autonomy and their learning about themselves as a human being. So, I encourage you to take a couple of minutes to start brainstorming a list of the things you can imagine a child learning through making choices and just seeing how things unfold. And I do think once you get the ball rolling, it may well be hard to stop. ANNA: I think so.PAM: I think that will be a lot of fun. And it just, again, it gets us back to that open and curious mindset. It's just like, you know what? Let's just open things up and put on a new lens and just try things out and let's just see what we discover.ANNA: Because so often, what got us to the place of wanting to control and punish is just, that's what we knew. And so, just try some new ideas and see how it impacts your relationships, see how it impacts just your life satisfaction, see how you all are learning new skills. I think it'll be fun.PAM: Anyway, thank you so much for listening, everyone. Bye!

We're back with another episode in our Relationships series and we're talking about examining our have to's. We often use the words, "I have to," or "You have to," without even realizing that we're saying them! But those words add weight to our lives and they take away our choices. If, instead, we get curious about our language and start questioning all of the have to's, a whole world of possibilities opens up. It's then that we can learn more about ourselves and our loved ones and really tune in to what we want and need. It's powerful!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Find our coaching and courses, including Navigating Family Gatherings, in our store at LivingJoyfullyShop.comYou can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Look at the places you are using the words “have to”, find the why and identify some different choices. How does it feel? 2. What areas are you telling the people in your life that they “have to” do something? How does it affect your connection? Initiate a conversation with them to find the why and see if that changes the energy around the request. 3. Use the lens of everything being a choice this week and see if you notice any shifts or recognize any resistance.   TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be tricky because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundation series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching, which you can explore at our living joyfully shop. Follow the link in the show notes, or you can go to LivingJoyfullyShop.com.Okay, so this episode is part of our relationship series, and we will be digging into the idea of have to's. Have to's are an interesting idea to deconstruct. It's part language, part intention, part external noise. And I feel like language is probably the best place to start. When we use the words "have to" for so many things, like it's so ubiquitous. It really has become such a common phrase that we don't even realize the weight it's adding to everything. "I have to go to the store." "I have to call my mom." "I have to do the dishes." "I have to, have to, have to." And then the weight of that is actually even, I feel like, compounded when we put have to's onto our children or to other people in our life. "You have to brush your teeth." "You have to go to bed." "You have to finish the food on your plate." "You have to go to school." "You have to cut the grass." "You have to finish that project." And on the surface, those things may seem like have to's, but orienting to the idea that everything is a choice can really help empower and bring a lot of clarity about our actions.We're going to dive more into that in a minute, but bringing some intentionality to our language can really change the energy. And understanding the why behind the things we're viewing as have to gets us to the root of what's going on and is often where the choice lies.PAM: Yes, yes. I think intentionality can make all the difference in how it feels to do so many things.I think the phrase "have to," is often used as a shortcut. So, skipping right past the intention and into expectation. The language that we use, both when we're speaking to others and when we're speaking to ourselves can make a huge difference in the energy with which we approach the task at hand.So, when I notice myself saying, "I have to do X," I notice that it often feels like a weight and I immediately start to build some resistance to doing that thing that I need to overcome before I can even get started, because apparently I don't like being told what to do.So, to play with that, I just try to change up my language, maybe saying something like, "I want to do X," and just see how that feels. Sometimes my first reaction is no, I do not want to do that. But I can still stay with that for a moment. I might ask myself, "Why might I want to do that?" So, exploring those reasons can help me move from those expectations back to my intentions. I suspect there were originally some reasons that made sense to me that shifted my language into that shortcut realm of "have to," and rediscovering those can help me lean back into, "Oh yeah, that's why I want to do X."So, the language we use, both with ourselves and others, can just be so helpful in more gracefully navigating the ins and outs of our day. I mean, that shortcut, oh, that's going to save me time. I'm going to be more efficient. But eventually, we forget about the intention that was behind it. And that can drag it out. It's definitely worth exploring.ANNA: It starts to carry as a weight. I think that's where the weight comes, because suddenly we're like, "Oh, we've got all these have to's. Where is this coming from? What's happening?" We really have lost sight of why we're there and why we wanted to be there and what was the whole purpose in the beginning. And I just feel like language makes such a difference with that.And I will say that I know saying everything is a choice is something that can sometimes raise hackles for people, because I've been saying this for a very long time. But as soon as you start to break things down, the choice is more evident. And it's often rooted in the why, why we want to do something. I don't have to brush my teeth, but I do because it helps them to remain clean and healthy. It's not the only way. It's one way. And once I understand that, I can make an active choice about how I want to address my, why my need for clean and healthy teeth. Then I'm in control. It's not happening to me. I've regained my agency.And as humans of any age, we want agency over our lives. And yes, this applies to children as well. So, taking that time to find the choice with our children paves the path for learning, growth, and empowerment. They don't have to go to bed. They might want to, if they need to be up early the next day, or they might not. They might be fine with a couple nights of getting less sleep and then they may want to sleep in longer the next night. They might try it and learn that it didn't feel good the next day and they tease out what works for them.But the learning in that is so much more robust than being told what to do, where what we're learning at that point is that they have no agency and are supposed to do what someone else thinks they should do. And when we walk that out just a tiny bit, we can see what a slippery slope that is, disconnecting them from that understanding. And we'll talk more about autonomy in our next episode, but it just wanted to plant that little seed for now.The important piece, I think, to consider today is, what does it feel like to realize that everything is a choice? What I know for myself is that as soon as I think something isn't a choice, I need to stop. I need to take a breath and get back to my why, because there is a reason I'm doing whatever task is at hand.It serves some purpose in a bigger picture. And as soon as I can identify my why, I can start to see the choices.So, I can stare at a full sink of dirty dishes and think, "I've got to clean these dishes." The reality of it is, I don't. I could go out to dinner. We could use paper plates. I can throw all the dishes away. And while I might not do that, sometimes it's helpful to take it to the extreme because again, it highlights the choice. Then, if I do the dishes, I know that I've decided it's the choice that best serves me in that moment.And so, even if we look at jobs, because this one I'll come up a lot with the jobs are important. They are. If my job is feeling like a have to, though, I really want to examine what's going on, because of course I can quit. There will be consequences to that, but I don't have to go to work. And if we look on the smaller scale, let's say I don't have to go to work that particular day. If I was sick or there was an accident, I wouldn't be there and the world wouldn't end.If I find that I'm feeling bad as an ongoing pattern, then I want to look at the bigger picture to find my choice and my why again. Maybe I choose to go because it's an easy commute and the hours work well with the rest of my life. Okay. I'm back to understanding my why.When the time comes that those things aren't enough, then maybe it's time to look beyond that job and start to find the priorities that are bubbling up in my life at this current moment. But if I stay in that "have to" place, I just end up resenting the job, probably not doing it very well. And then that discontent bleeds into the rest of my life.I want to catch that as early as possible and ground back into my knowing that everything is a choice. It may take a minute to see it, and I might still end up making the same choice that called it all into question, but it will feel so different. And that energy makes all the difference in my overall engagement and just joy.PAM: Yeah. I find it so interesting to remind myself that I have a choice, particularly at those times when I feel like I don't, right? At first it can be confronting, but it can definitely be fun and enlightening to find the choices that are buried underneath all those expectations that we've brought in.And one that comes to mind for me is attending family gatherings through the holiday season. It can sure feel like I "have to," but again, it's really, really not. Do I actually want to go? I can ask myself that. As you mentioned, if I was sick in the hospital, I wouldn't be going and nobody would be hassling me about not being there.And you mentioned going to the extreme as well. And it's interesting that we sometimes need to do that to remember that our wishes have value in this choice. But it can also be such a great way to just knock loose that initial "have to" pull. "If I broke my leg and I'm in the hospital, I wouldn't have to go to work.I wouldn't have to go to the family gathering," all those pieces.So, what I find really interesting is that once I can just release that "have to" my resistance to it also fades, and I can actually start contemplating the choice itself. So, I start to envision what I would do instead of doing that thing and what I would miss by not going.So, that leads me to ask myself why I might want to go. And again, once the expectation is released, those intentions have space to start bubbling up. Now I can acknowledge, maybe there are a couple of things that I enjoy about attending and I can start looking forward to actually going. And even more interesting, if I choose to go, as you mentioned, I now realize what I enjoy about it and my energy when I show up is anticipation rather than feeling put upon and looking to leave as soon as possible. "I have to stay for two hours and then I won't get in trouble," etc. And when I'm there, I'm also intentional about engaging in the things that I was looking forward to, because I've thought about it now. Maybe it is striking up a conversation with a particular cousin or an aunt who's going to be there or leading a fun game of charades for whoever wants to play, or just enjoying the food that we don't normally get to eat.So, I can soak in the pieces that fill me up, enjoying the whole experience much more than if I just showed up because I have to. There's another tick box that I filled. So, even if I do that expected thing, my experience can be very different just because I remembered that it was my choice to go.ANNA: Oh my gosh. I love that example, because I'm sure it's one that many of us can identify and have. faced, probably, at some point over our lifetime. And understanding our choice and operating from that place really does allow us to move through a holiday season with intention, more joy, we aren't being dragged around and controlled by have to's. We're choosing with intention and that energy changes everything.And I think it helps to realize that, so often, these have to's are actually external voices weighing in with agendas or prescriptions and those voices tend to champion a singular path. "You have to go to college, you have to get married, you have to buy a house, you have to play sports, you've got to play an instrument, you have to learn a language." But you can see with those how it's saying way more about the speaker than it is about you or your child.So, people have their biases and there's a comfort in moving other people towards the path that feels comfortable to them. I'm sure I've been guilty of it, too. But like we've been talking about since the beginning, people are so different. And there are so many different paths to learning and growth and for just being a human.Being aware of where the voices are coming from gives us so much information. We can start to see that it is more about the other person, and perhaps that's something that they want in their life. And then we have a choice, if we want to take that on as our own, or if our inner voice is leading us in another direction. And I have found 9 times out of 10, have to's are coming from these external sources and I really don't want to be buffeted around by other people's expectations of me. I want to tune in to my inner knowing and decide on the path that makes the most sense to my life and to the relationships that I want to cultivate.And again, it's just bringing intention to that and recognizing that, okay, that's outside of me. What is in me? What do I want to do going forward?PAM: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely been my experience with so many of the have to's that bounce around my head, and as you said, sometimes come out of my mouth, have much more to do with expectations from others that I have just absorbed over the years.So, basically a mix of all of the conventional wisdom that surrounds all the things I need to do to be successful in society's eyes. And it really can take a while to tease that apart from what I actually think and feel, because they have become so intimately intertwined. And, in fact, it didn't take long for examining my have to's to become questioning my definition of success, right?I realized I have absorbed what success looks like over time, but what does success actually mean to me? And that really helps me tease apart the things that I actually feel motivated to do. And I could be motivated to do things I don't particularly enjoy, because they help move me along a path to a bigger picture goal.And I find it more helpful to recognize that bigger picture than try to keep beating myself up with, "You have to do this," over and over and over. Just remembering why I'm choosing to do this. Even if I didn't really feel like getting up early to do the thing, or I didn't really feel like working on it this afternoon, et cetera, but recognizing that bigger picture can really help me realize that it's not a "have to," it's an, "I choose to." And as you said, Anna, there are just so many different paths, because people are so different. That one-size-fits-all approach of the conventional path doesn't actually fit well for very many people. So many outliers.ANNA: True, and it can take years to unpack that and to find the path that truly makes the most sense to us, especially if it happens to be a bit more alternative or not fit into the narrow lines that we've been told. But I think understanding all of this that we've been talking about in this episode, we can bring intentionality to our language. We can release the agendas that are being handed to us and find our own unique paths. We can understand and help articulate our why and help our children find and articulate theirs. Through that process, we learn more about them. We learn more about ourselves. And I've just found it really empowering. And it's just also a red flag that I look for when I'm feeling a little disenfranchised or a little dysregulated, or just not feeling happy with what's happening in my life, this is usually a good place for me to go. What am I putting as weight or have to's? What's happening? And to find that why, to find those reasons, to look at that bigger picture, like you were saying, and then suddenly I'm like, oh, I've got it. I know why I'm here. I know why this is feeling that way. And here are the things I can change. So, there's just a lot there.PAM: I know it, it really is. It's such a simple concept, such a simple idea, when you notice yourself saying "have to," especially if you don't go, "Oh, yay!" it is so worth digging into. Because it doesn't have to take a long time. Some are a little bit harder to dig into than others, a little bit more challenging. But it's just so worth taking that extra minute or two to reground ourselves in why we want to do the thing, because literally it changes our energy, because we found our intention.We bring a more intentional energy to it. We can appreciate the act of doing the thing, whatever it is. Even if it's doing the dishes, remembering that I'm choosing it. Ah, now I'm going to set myself up to enjoy this a little bit more or I'm going to more intentionally bring some zen energy to it or whatever it is that I have found that I can appreciate. Or maybe it's like, Ooh, what I appreciate is having it done and let's see, how can I speed it up? It brings back that playful energy that we talk about so much, right?ANNA: Exactly. Open and curious. What can we do to change that feeling that weight that we're carrying around about a particular thing? And I think you're right. It's that combination of finding that why and then, like, okay, what can I do to make this feed me and be more interesting or bring in something different? And so, yeah, I love that point as well.So, just a few questions to ponder this week. First, let's look at places where you find yourself using the words "have to." Find the why and identify the different choices. And how does it feel? What does that process feel like to really dig in there a little bit?And second, look for areas where maybe you're telling other people in your life that they have to do something. Step back a bit and look at how is that impacting your connection, maybe initiate a conversation with them to understand their why, to talk about your why, and see if that changes the energy around the request in general.And then I would just say, let's use the lens of everything being a choice. Even if your hackles were raised when you heard it at first, just bring it in and see how it feels this week. And just see if you notice any shifts or if you recognize the resistance and then look at that. Because again, when I'm feeling like I don't have a choice, that is my red flag to like, whoa, I want to understand where that's coming from and look at what can I do? What can I do to release some of that weight?PAM: I really do find that is such a fun question. What if I didn't do that? What would happen? It is really interesting, because so often we've got that weight of, oh, there'd be so much trouble and all these people would be mad at me. And it's so interesting to just contemplate, because then, even if you're sure you would never not do the thing, it's that shift to realizing, but it's a choice. Everything is a choice.ANNA: Right. I absolutely want to do it, because this is what feels best to me. And then, oh, my gosh, it's just so different to just go, "I want to do this." And so, right. I just find it such a valuable process. I'm so curious how that lands for everyone and what they uncover over the next week. But anyway, thank you so much for listening. And we will see you next time. Take care.

Why do toxic behaviors persist in workplaces despite efforts for a healthier work culture? Find out how to discern healthy behaviors from toxic ones and learn what you can do to cope successfully with toxic relationships and environments. Anna Eliatamby is a clinical psychologist and workplace well-being expert who has played a pivotal role in developing mental health, responsible leadership and well-being strategies for global organizations, including the UN, International Red Cross and Red Crescent, and PwC. She is the Director of HealthyLeadership CIC, a collective that encourages individuals and organizations to foster decency and make positive changes. Anna is also the author of the Decency Journey Series, a collection of compact and practical pocketbooks designed to help individuals flourish in their careers and workplaces.   Originally aired as episode 96. If you enjoy the show, please rate it on Spotify or iTunes. Your ratings help more people like you discover the podcast!   Episode Highlights 2:56 Why do people engage in toxic behavior? 6:22 The combination of toxic behavior and positive intent 9:37 Impacts of toxic behavior 12:32 Toxic behaviors can cause inadvertent self-sabotage 14:44 The difference between holding someone accountable and blaming 17:31 The mindset behind toxic behaviors 19:55 Assessing our own toxic tendencies 26:08 Critical skills and expectations for confronting toxic behaviors 30:14 More techniques for coping with toxic behaviors 33:10 The importance of self-care when coping with toxic behavior 34:28 Practical considerations, and pitfalls, for deciding on a coping strategy 39:14 Key ingredient for outgrowing our own toxic attendances   Anna's view on the greatest unmet wellbeing need at work today "I think the greatest unmet need is that we must address the negative the toxicity at the same time as we're adding to the positive and teaching people about things like compassion, both are necessary." What “working with humans” means to Anna “It's a lovely phrase, and I think it is just that to remember that we are human beings, we all are. And that should be the center from which we work. So if we're human we work with compassion, with respect, with decency -- with ourselves and with other people.”   Resources Follow: Anna on LinkedIn Visit: Healthy Leadership CIC Read: the Decency Journey series of books   ©Michael Glazer   ©Michael Glazer

166 Guest Mix I Progressive Tales with Praveen Achary 01. Sebastian Sellares - Caliope (Original Mix) [Anjunadeep] 02. ID - ID (Praveen Achary Remix) [Juicebox Music] 03. K Loveski - Sometimes (Original Mix) [Deep Down Music] 04. Tonaco, Venao - Sub Station(Original Mix) [Moonlight] 05. Guy J - Metal Dreams (Original Mix) [Lost & Found] 06. Forerunners - Dreams for You (Original Mix) [Pure Progressive] 07. Randy De Silva - Let Go (Imran Khan Remix) [Deep Down Music] 08. Blanka Barbara - Descending Into Heaven (Bondarev Remix) [roku] 09. Unusual Soul - ID [ID] 10. Ivan Aliaga - Speed (Original Mix) [Replug] 11. foglight & Anthon - Easy Limit (Jelly For The Babies Remix) [Mango Alley] 12. ANNA - It's All You (Original Mix) [MERCURY KX] ⭐ Praveen Achary Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/praveenachary

Anna Belak, Director of The Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the findings in this year's newly-released Sysdig Global Cloud Threat Report. Anna explains the challenges that teams face in ensuring their cloud is truly secure, including quantity of data versus quality, automation, and more. Corey and Anna also discuss how much faster attacks are able to occur, and Anna gives practical insights into what can be done to make your cloud environment more secure. About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of The Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey.Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.Links Referenced: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ Sysdig Global Cloud Threat Report: https://www.sysdig.com/2023threatreport duckbillgroup.com: https://duckbillgroup.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode is brought to us by our friends over at Sysdig. And once again, I am pleased to welcome Anna Belak, whose title has changed since last we spoke to Director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. Anna, welcome back, and congratulations on all the adjectives.Anna: [laugh]. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to hang out with you.Corey: So, we are here today to talk about a thing that has been written. And we're in that weird time thing where while we're discussing it at the moment, it's not yet public but will be when this releases. The Sysdig Global Cloud Threat Report, which I am a fan of. I like quite a bit the things it talks about and the ways it gets me thinking. There are things that I wind up agreeing with, there are things I wind up disagreeing with, and honestly, that makes it an awful lot of fun.But let's start with the whole, I guess, executive summary version of this. What is a Global Cloud Threat Report? Because to me, it seems like there's an argument to be made for just putting all three of the big hyperscale clouds on it and calling it a day because they're all threats to somebody.Anna: To be fair, we didn't think of the cloud providers themselves as the threats, but that's a hot take.Corey: Well, an even hotter one is what I've seen out of Azure lately with their complete lack of security issues, and the attackers somehow got a Microsoft signing key and the rest. I mean, at this point, I feel like Charlie Bell was brought in from Amazon to head cybersecurity and spent the last two years trapped in the executive washroom or something. But I can't prove it, of course. No, you target the idea of threats in a different direction, towards what people more commonly think of as threats.Anna: Yeah, the bad guys [laugh]. I mean, I would say that this is the reason you need a third-party security solution, buy my thing, blah, blah, blah, but [laugh], you know? Yeah, so we are—we have a threat research team like I think most self-respecting security vendors these days do. Ours, of course, is the best of them all, and they do all kinds of proactive and reactive research of what the bad guys are up to so that we can help our customers detect the bad guys, should they become their victims.Corey: So, there was a previous version of this report, and then you've, in long-standing tradition, decided to go ahead and update it. Unlike many of the terrible professors I've had in years past, it's not just slap a new version number, change the answers to some things, and force all the students to buy a new copy of the book every year because that's your retirement plan, you actually have updated data. What are the big changes you've seen since the previous incarnation of this?Anna: That is true. In fact, we start from scratch, more or less, every year, so all the data in this report is brand new. Obviously, it builds on our prior research. I'll say one clearly connected piece of data is, last year, we did a supply chain story that talked about the bad stuff you can find in Docker Hub. This time we upleveled that and we actually looked deeper into the nature of said bad stuff and how one might identify that an image is bad.And we found that 10% of the malware scary things inside images actually can't be detected by most of your static tools. So, if you're thinking, like, static analysis of any kind, SCA, vulnerability scanning, just, like, looking at the artifact itself before it's deployed, you actually wouldn't know it was bad. So, that's a pretty cool change, I would say [laugh].Corey: It is. And I'll also say what's going to probably sound like a throwaway joke, but I assure you it's not, where you're right, there is a lot of bad stuff on Docker Hub and part of the challenge is disambiguating malicious-bad and shitty-bad. But there are serious security concerns to code that is not intended to be awful, but it is anyway, and as a result, it leads to something that this report gets into a fair bit, which is the ideas of, effectively, lateralling from one vulnerability to another vulnerability to another vulnerability to the actual story. I mean, Capital One was a great example of this. They didn't do anything that was outright negligent like leaving an S3 bucket open; it was a determined sophisticated attacker who went from one mistake to one mistake to one mistake to, boom, keys to the kingdom. And that at least is a little bit more understandable even if it's not great when it's your bank.Anna: Yeah. I will point out that in the 10% that these things are really bad department, it was 10% of all things that were actually really bad. So, there were many things that were just shitty, but we had pared it down to the things that were definitely malicious, and then 10% of those things you could only identify if you had some sort of runtime analysis. Now, runtime analysis can be a lot of different things. It's just that if you're relying on preventive controls, you might have a bad time, like, one times out of ten, at least.But to your point about, kind of, chaining things together, I think that's actually the key, right? Like, that's the most interesting moment is, like, which things can they grab onto, and then where can they pivot? Because it's not like you barge in, open the door, like, you've won. Like, there's multiple steps to this process that are sometimes actually quite nuanced. And I'll call out that, like, one of the other findings we got this year that was pretty cool is that the time it takes to get through those steps is very short. There's a data point from Mandiant that says that the average dwell time for an attacker is 16 days. So like, two weeks, maybe. And in our data, the average dwell time for the attacks we saw was more like ten minutes.Corey: And that is going to be notable for folks. Like, there are times where I have—in years past; not recently, mind you—I have—oh, I'm trying to set something up, but I'm just going to open this port to the internet so I can access it from where I am right now and I'll go back and shut it in a couple hours. There was a time that that was generally okay. These days, everything happens so rapidly. I mean, I've sat there with a stopwatch after intentionally committing AWS credentials to Gif-ub—yes, that's how it's pronounced—and 22 seconds until the first probing attempt started hitting, which was basically impressively fast. Like, the last thing in the entire sequence was, and then I got an alert from Amazon that something might have been up, at which point it is too late. But it's a hard problem and I get it. People don't really appreciate just how quickly some of these things can evolve.Anna: Yeah. And I think the main reason, from at least what we see, is that the bad guys are into the cloud saying, right, like, we good guys love the automation, we love the programmability, we love the immutable infrastructure, like, all this stuff is awesome and it's enabling us to deliver cool products faster to our customers and make more money, but the bad guys are using all the same benefits to perpetrate their evil crimes. So, they're building automation, they're stringing cool things together. Like, they have scripts that they run that basically just scan whatever's out there to see what new things have shown up, and they also have scripts for reconnaissance that will just send a message back to them through Telegram or WhatsApp, letting them know like, “Hey, I've been running, you know, for however long and I see a cool thing you may be able to use.” Then the human being shows up and they're like, “All right. Let's see what I can do with this credential,” or with this misconfiguration or what have you. So, a lot of their initial, kind of, discovery into what they can get at is heavily automated, which is why it's so fast.Corey: I feel like, on some level, this is an unpleasant sharp shock for an awful lot of executives because, “Wait, what do you mean attackers can move that quickly? Our crap-ass engineering teams can't get anything released in less than three sprints. What gives?” And I don't think people have a real conception of just how fast bad actors are capable of moving.Anna: I think we said—actually [unintelligible 00:07:57] last year, but this is a business for them, right? They're trying to make money. And it's a little bleak to think about it, but these guys have a day job and this is it. Like, our guys have a day job, that's shipping code, and then they're supposed to also do security. The bad guys just have a day job of breaking your code and stealing your stuff.Corey: And on some level, it feels like you have a choice to make in which side you go at. And it's, like, which one of those do I spend more time in meetings with? And maybe that's not the most legitimate way to pick a job; ethics do come into play. But yeah, there's it takes a certain similar mindset, on some level, to be able to understand just how the security landscape looks from an attacker's point of view.Anna: I'll bet the bad guys have meetings too, actually.Corey: You know, you're probably right. Can you imagine the actual corporate life of a criminal syndicate? That's a sitcom in there that just needs to happen. But again, I'm sorry, I shouldn't talk about that. We're on a writer's strike this week, so there's that.One thing that came out of the report that makes perfect sense—and I've heard about it, but I haven't seen it myself and I wanted to dive into on this—specifically that automation has been weaponized in the cloud. Now, it's easy to misinterpret that the first time you read it—like I did—as, “Oh, you mean the bad guys have discovered the magic of shell scripts? No kidding.” It's more than that. You have reports of people using things like CloudFormation to stand up resources that are then used to attack the rest of the infrastructure.And it's, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Like, back in the data center days, it was a very determined attacker that went through the process of getting an evil server stuffed into a rack somewhere. But it's an API call away in cloud. I'm surprised we haven't seen this before.Anna: Yeah. We probably have; I don't know if we've documented before. And sometimes it's hard to know that that's what's happening, right? I will say that both of those things are true, right? Like the shell scripts are definitely there, and to your point about how long it takes, you know, to stopwatch, these things, on the short end of our dwell time data set, it's zero seconds. It's zero seconds from, like, A to B because it's just a script.And that's not surprising. But the comment about CloudFormation specifically, right, is we're talking about people, kind of, figuring out how to create policy in the cloud to prevent bad stuff from happening because they're reading all the best practices ebooks and whatever, watching the YouTube videos. And so, you understand that you can, say, write policy to prevent users from doing certain things, but sometimes we forget that, like, if you don't want a user to be able to attach user policy to something. If you didn't write the rule that says you also can't do that in CloudFormation, then suddenly, you can't do it in command line, but you can do it in CloudFormation. So there's, kind of, things like this, where for every kind of tool that allows this beautiful, programmable, immutable infrastructure, kind of, paradigm, you now have to make sure that you have security policies that prevent those same tools from being used against you and deploying evil things because you didn't explicitly say that you can't deploy evil things with this tool and that tool and that other tool in this other way. Because there's so many ways to do things, right?Corey: That's part of the weird thing, too, is that back when I was doing the sysadmin dance, it was a matter of taking a bunch of tools that did one thing well—or, you know, aspirationally well—and then chaining them together to achieve things. Increasingly, it feels like that's what cloud providers have become, where they have all these different services with different capabilities. One of the reasons that I now have a three-part article series, each one titled, “17 Ways to Run Containers on AWS,” adding up for a grand total of 51 different AWS services you can use to run containers with, it's not just there to make fun of the duplication of efforts because they're not all like that. But rather, each container can have bad acting behaviors inside of it. And are you monitoring what's going on across that entire threatened landscape?People were caught flat-footed to discover that, “Wait, Lambda functions can run malware? Wow.” Yes, effectively, anything that can bang two bits together and return a result is capable of running a lot of these malware packages. It's something that I'm not sure a number of, shall we say, non-forward-looking security teams have really wrapped their heads around yet.Anna: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, I always want to be a little sympathetic to the folks, like, in the trenches because it's really hard to know all the 51 ways to run containers in the cloud and then to be like, oh, 51 ways to run malicious containers in the cloud. How do I prevent all of them, when you have a day job?Corey: One point that it makes in the report here is that about who the attacks seem to be targeting. And this is my own level of confusion that I imagine we can probably wind up eviscerating neatly. Back when I was running, like, random servers for me for various projects I was working on—or working at small companies—there was a school of thought in some quarters that, well, security is not that important to us. We don't have any interesting secrets. Nobody actually cares.This was untrue because a lot of these things are running on autopilot. They don't have enough insight to know that you're boring and you have to defend just like everyone else does. But then you see what can only be described as dumb attacks. Like there was the attack on Twitter a few years ago where a bunch of influential accounts tweeted about some bitcoin scam. It's like, you realize with the access you had, you had so many other opportunities to make orders of magnitude more money if you want to go down that path or to start geopolitical conflict or all kinds of other stuff. I have to wonder how much these days are attacks targeted versus well, we found an endpoint that doesn't seem to be very well secured; we're going to just exploit it.Anna: Yeah. So, that's correct intuition, I think. We see tons of opportunistic attacks, like, non-stop. But it's just, like, hitting everything, honeypots, real accounts, our accounts, your accounts, like, everything. Many of them are pretty easy to prevent, honestly, because it's like just mundane stuff, whatever, so if you have decent security hygiene, it's not a big deal.So, I wouldn't say that you're safe if you're not special because none of us are safe and none of us are that special. But what we've done here is we actually deliberately wanted to see what would be attacked as a fraction, right? So, we deployed a honey net that was indicative of what a financial org would look like or what a healthcare org would look like to see who would bite, right? And what we expected to see is that we probably—we thought the finance would be higher because obviously, that's always top tier. But for example, we thought that people would go for defense more or for health care.And we didn't see that. We only saw, like, 5% I think for health—very small numbers for healthcare and defense and very high numbers for financial services and telcos, like, around 30% apiece, right? And so, it's a little curious, right, because you—I can theorize as to why this is. Like, telcos and finance, obviously, it's where the money is, like, great [unintelligible 00:14:35] for fraud and all this other stuff, right?Defense, again, maybe people don't think defense and cloud. Healthcare arguably isn't that much in cloud, right? Like a lot of health healthcare stuff is on-premise, so if you see healthcare in cloud, maybe, you, like, think it's a honeypot or you don't [laugh] think it's worth your time? You know, whatever. Attacker logic is also weird. But yeah, we were deliberately trying to see which verticals were the most attractive for these folks. So, these attacks are infected targeted because the victim looked like the kind of thing they should be looking for if they were into that.Corey: And how does it look in that context? I mean, part of me secretly suspects that an awful lot of terrible startup names where they're so frugal they don't buy vowels, is a defense mechanism. Because you wind up with something that looks like a cat falling on a keyboard as a company name, no attacker is going to know what the hell your company does, so therefore, they're not going to target you specifically. Clearly, that's not quite how it works. But what are those signals that someone gets into an environment and says, “Ah, this is clearly healthcare,” versus telco versus something else?Anna: Right. I think you would be right. If you had, like… hhhijk as your company name, you probably wouldn't see a lot of targeted attacks. But where we're saying either the company and the name looks like a provider of that kind, and-slash-or they actually contain some sort of credential or data inside the honeypot that appears to be, like, a credential for a certain kind of thing. So, it really just creatively naming things so they look delicious.Corey: For a long time, it felt like—at least from a cloud perspective because this is how it manifested—the primary purpose of exploiting a company's cloud environment was to attempt to mine cryptocurrency within it. And I'm not sure if that was ever the actual primary approach, or rather, that was just the approach that people noticed because suddenly, their AWS bill looks a lot more like a telephone number than it did yesterday, so they can as a result, see that it's happening. Are these attacks these days, effectively, just to mine Bitcoin, if you'll pardon the oversimplification, or are they focused more on doing more damage in different ways?Anna: The analyst answer: it depends. So, again, to your point about how no one's safe, I think most attacks by volume are going to be opportunistic attacks, where people just want money. So, the easiest way right now to get money is to mine coins and then sell those coins, right? Obviously, if you have the infrastructure as a bad guy to get money in other ways, like, you could do extortion through ransomware, you might pursue that. But the overhead on ransomware is, like, really high, so most people would rather not if they can get money other ways.Now, because by volume APTs, or Advanced Persistent Threats, are much smaller than all the opportunistic guys, they may seem like they're not there or we don't see them. They're also usually better at attacking people than the opportunistic guys who will just spam everybody and see what they get, right? But even folks who are not necessarily nation states, right, like, we see a lot of attacks that probably aren't nation states, but they're quite sophisticated because we see them moving through the environment and pivoting and creating things and leveraging things that are quite interesting, right? So, one example is that they might go for a vulnerable EC2 instance—right, because maybe you have Log4J or whatever you have exposed—and then once they're there, they'll look around to see what else they can get. So, they'll pivot to the Cloud Control Plane, if it's possible, or they'll try to.And then in a real scenario we actually saw in an attack, they found a Terraform state file. So, somebody was using Terraform for provisioning whatever. And it requires an access key and this access key was just sitting in an S3 bucket somewhere. And I guess the victim didn't know or didn't think it was an issue. And so, this state file was extracted by the attacker and they found some [unintelligible 00:18:04], and they logged into whatever, and they were basically able to access a bunch of information they shouldn't have been able to see, and this turned into a data [extraction 00:18:11] scenario and some of that data was intellectual property.So, maybe that wasn't useful and maybe that wasn't their target. I don't know. Maybe they sold it. It's hard to say, but we increasingly see these patterns that are indicative of very sophisticated individuals who understand cloud deeply and who are trying to do intentionally malicious things other than just like, I popped [unintelligible 00:18:30]. I'm happy.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Calisti.Introducing Calisti. With Integrated Observability, Calisti provides a single pane of glass for accelerated root cause analysis and remediation. It can set, track, and ensure compliance with Service Level Objectives.Calisti provides secure application connectivity and management from datacenter to cloud, making it the perfect solution for businesses adopting cloud native microservice-based architectures. If you're running Apache Kafka, Calisti offers a turnkey solution with automated operations, seamless integrated security, high-availability, disaster recovery, and observability. So you can easily standardize and simplify microservice security, observability, and traffic management. Simplify your cloud-native operations with Calisti. Learn more about Calisti at calisti.app.Corey: I keep thinking of ransomware as being a corporate IT side of problem. It's a sort of thing you'll have on your Windows computers in your office, et cetera, et cetera, despite the fact that intellectually I know better. There were a number of vendors talking about ransomware attacks and encrypting data within S3, and initially, I thought, “Okay, this sounds like exactly a story people would talk about some that isn't really happening in order to sell their services to guard against it.” And then AWS did a blog post saying, “We have seen this, and here's what we have learned.” It's, “Oh, okay. So, it is in fact real.”But it's still taking me a bit of time to adapt to the new reality. I think part of this is also because back when I was hands-on-keyboard, I was unlucky, and as a result, I was kept from taking my aura near anything expensive or long-term like a database, and instead, it's like, get the stateless web servers. I can destroy those and we'll laugh and laugh about it. It'll be fine. But it's not going to destroy the company in the same way. But yeah, there are a lot of important assets in cloud that if you don't have those assets, you will no longer have a company.Anna: It's funny you say that because I became a theoretical physicist instead of experimental physicist because when I walked into the room, all the equipment would stop functioning.Corey: Oh, I like that quite a bit. It's one of those ideas of, yeah, your aura just winds up causing problems. Like, “You are under no circumstances to be within 200 feet of the SAN. Is that clear?” Yeah, same type of approach.One thing that I particularly like that showed up in the report that has honestly been near and dear to my heart is when you talk about mitigations around compromised credentials at one point when GitHub winds up having an AWS credential, AWS has scanners and a service that will catch that and apply a quarantine policy to those IAM credentials. The problem is, is that policy goes nowhere near far enough at all. I wound up having fun thought experiment a while back, not necessarily focusing on attacking the cloud so much as it was a denial of wallet attack. With a quarantined key, how much money can I cost? And I had to give up around the $26 billion dollar mark.And okay, that project can't ever see the light of day because it'll just cause grief for people. The problem is that the mitigations around trying to list the bad things and enumerate them mean that you're forever trying to enumerate something that is innumerable in and of itself. It feels like having a hard policy of once this is compromised, it's not good for anything would be the right answer. But people argue with me on that.Anna: I don't think I would argue with you on that. I do think there are moments here—again, I have to have sympathy for the folks who are actually trying to be administrators in the cloud, and—Corey: Oh God, it's hard.Anna: [sigh]. I mean, a lot of the things we choose to do as cloud users and cloud admins are things that are very hard to check for security goodness, if you will, right, like, the security quality of the naming convention of your user accounts or something like that, right? One of the things we actually saw in this report it—and it almost made me cry, like, how visceral my reaction was to this thing—is, there were basically admin accounts in this cloud environment, and they were named according to a specific convention, right? So, if you were, like, admincorey and adminanna, like, that, if you were an admin, you've got an adminanna account, right? And then there was a bunch of rules that were written, like, policies that would prevent you from doing things to those accounts so that they couldn't be compromised.Corey: Root is my user account. What are you talking about?Anna: Yeah, totally. Yeah [laugh]. They didn't. They did the thing. They did the good accounts. They didn't just use root everybody. So, everyone had their own account, it was very neat. And all that happened is, like, one person barely screwed up the naming of their account, right? Instead of a lowercase admin, they use an uppercase Admin, and so all of the policy written for lowercase admin didn't apply to them, and so the bad guy was able to attach all kinds of policies and basically create a key for themselves to then go have a field day with this admin account that they just found laying around.Now, they did nothing wrong. It's just, like, a very small mistake, but the attacker knew what to do, right? The attacker went and enumerated all these accounts or whatever, like, they see what's in the environment, they see the different one, and they go, “Oh, these suckers created a convention, and like, this joker didn't follow it. And I've won.” Right? So, they know to check with that stuff.But our guys have so much going on that they might forget, or they might just you know, typo, like, whatever. Who cares. Is it case-sensitive? I don't know. Is it not case-sensitive? Like, some policies are, some policies aren't. Do you remember which ones are and which ones aren't? And so, it's a little hopeless and painful as, like, a cloud defender to be faced with that, but that's sort of the reality.And right now we're in kind of like, ah, preventive security is the way to save yourself in cloud mode, and these things just, like, they don't come up on, like, the benchmarks and, like the configuration checks and all this other stuff that's just going, you know, canned, did you, you know, put MFA on your user account? Like, yeah, they did, but [laugh] like, they gave it a wrong name and now it's a bad na—so it's a little bleak.Corey: There's too much data. Filtering it becomes nightmarish. I mean, I have what I think of as the Dependabot problem, where every week, I get this giant list of Dependabot freaking out about every repository I have on Gif-ub and every dependency thereof. And some of the stuff hasn't been deployed in years and I don't care. Other stuff is, okay, I can see how that markdown parser could have malicious input passed to it, but it's for an internal project that only ever has very defined things allowed to talk to it so it doesn't actually matter to me.And then at some point, it's like, you expect to read, like, three-quarters of the way down the list of a thousand things, like, “Oh, and by the way, the basement's on fire.” And then have it keep going on where it's… filtering the signal from noise is such a problem that it feels like people only discover the warning signs after they're doing forensics when something has already happened rather than when it's early enough to be able to fix things. How do you get around that problem?Anna: It's brutal. I mean, I'm going to give you, like, my [unintelligible 00:24:28] vendor answer: “It's just easy. Just do what we said.” But I think [laugh] in all honesty, you do need to have some sort of risk prioritization. I'm not going to say I know the answer to what your algorithm has to be, but our approach of, like, oh, let's just look up the CVSS score on the vulnerabilities. Oh, look, 600,000 criticals. [laugh]. You know, you have to be able to filter past that, too. Like, is this being used by the application? Like, has this thing recently been accessed? Like, does this user have permissions? Have they used those permissions?Like, these kinds of questions that we know to ask, but you really have to kind of like force the security team, if you will, or the DevOps team or whatever team you have to actually, instead of looking at the list and crying, being like, how can we pare this list down? Like anything at all, just anything at all. And do that iteratively, right? And then on the other side, I mean, it's so… defense-in-depth, like, right? I know it's—I'm not supposed to say that because it's like, not cool anymore, but it's so true in cloud, like, you have to assume that all these controls will fail and so you have to come up with some—Corey: People will fail, processes will fail, controls will fail, and great—Anna: Yeah.Corey: How do you make sure that one of those things failing isn't winner-take-all?Anna: Yeah. And so, you need some detection mechanism to see when something's failed, and then you, like, have a resilience plan because you know, if you can detect that it's failed, but you can't do anything about it, I mean, big deal, [laugh] right? So detection—Corey: Good job. That's helpful.Anna: And response [laugh]. And response. Actually, mostly response yeah.Corey: Otherwise, it's, “Hey, guess what? You're not going to believe this, but…” it goes downhill from there rapidly.Anna: Just like, how shall we write the news headline for you?Corey: I have to ask, given that you have just completed this report and are absolutely in a place now where you have a sort of bird's eye view on the industry at just the right time, over the past year, we've seen significant macro changes affect an awful lot of different areas, the hiring markets, the VC funding markets, the stock markets. How has, I guess, the threat space evolved—if at all—during that same timeframe?Anna: I'm guessing the bad guys are paying more than the good guys.Corey: Well, there is part of that and I have to imagine also, crypto miners are less popular since sanity seems to have returned to an awful lot of people's perspective on money.Anna: I don't know if they are because, like, even fractions of cents are still cents once you add up enough of them. So, I don't think [they have stopped 00:26:49] mining.Corey: It remains perfectly economical to mine Bitcoin in the cloud, as long as you use someone else's account to do it.Anna: Exactly. Someone else's money is the best kind of money.Corey: That's the VC motto and then some.Anna: [laugh]. Right? I think it's tough, right? I don't want to be cliche and say, “Look, oh automate more stuff.” I do think that if you're in the security space on the blue team and you are, like, afraid of losing your job—you probably shouldn't be afraid if you do your job at all because there's a huge lack of talent, and that pool is not growing quick enough.Corey: You might be out of work for dozens of minutes.Anna: Yeah, maybe even an hour if you spend that hour, like, not emailing people, asking for work. So yeah, I mean, blah, blah, skill up in cloud, like, automate, et cetera. I think what I said earlier is actually the more important piece, right? We have all these really talented people sitting behind these dashboards, just trying to do the right thing, and we're not giving them good data, right? We're giving them too much data and it's not good quality data.So, whatever team you're on or whatever your business is, like, you will have to try to pare down that list of impossible tasks for all of your cloud-adjacent IT teams to a list of things that are actually going to reduce risk to your business. And I know that's really hard to do because you're asking now, folks who are very technical to communicate with folks who are very non-technical, to figure out how to, like, save the business money and keep the business running, and we've never been good at this, but there's no time like the present to actually get good at it.Corey: Let's see, what is it, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. Same sort of approach. I think that I'm seeing less of the obnoxious whining that I saw for years about how there's a complete shortage of security professionals out there. It's, “Okay, have you considered taking promising people and training them to do cybersecurity?” “No, that will take six months to get them productive.” Then they sit there for two years with the job rec open. It's hmm. Now, I'm not a professor here, but I also sort of feel like there might be a solution that benefits everyone. At least that rhetoric seems to have tamped down.Anna: I think you're probably right. There's a lot of awesome training out there too. So there's, like, folks giving stuff away for free that's super resources, so I think we are doing a good job of training up security folks. And everybody wants to be in security because it's so cool. But yeah, I think the data problem is this decade's struggle, more so than any other decades.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where can they go to get their own copy of the report?Anna: It's been an absolute pleasure, Corey, and thanks, as always for having us. If you would like to check out the report—which you absolutely should—you can find it ungated at www.sysdig.com/2023threatreport.Corey: You had me at ungated. Thank you so much for taking the time today. It's appreciated. Anna Belak, Director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. This promoted guest episode has been brought to us by our friends at Sysdig and I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an insulting comment that no doubt will compile into a malicious binary that I can grab off of Docker Hub.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about behaviors. A lot of mainstream parenting advice focuses on children's behavior and the best ways to stop unwanted behaviors and increase desired ones. What that approach fails to acknowledge is that behaviors are always an expression of underlying needs. And without digging in to understand those needs, very often, the problem remains. By getting curious and figuring out our loved ones' true needs, we can solve problems together and strengthen our connection at the same time.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONS1. This week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need you're trying to address. Often we act or react the same way over and over without thinking because it's become a habit. Let's bring some intentionality back in by considering the need at play.2. Next week, with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need you're taking care of, to your child/ren. Just a sentence or two, lightly, with no expectation of a response.3. Think of a behavior from your child/ren that is rubbing for you and list out some possible underlying needs they might be trying to satisfy. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. Did one of those possible needs make more sense?4. Thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child/ren's behavior? This can just help you bring awareness to context and not focus only on behaviors and their impact. TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging, because we're all so different. On the Living Joyfully Podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes.We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can learn more about all that we're doing at LivingJoyfully.ca.Today's episode is part of the parenting series, and we're going to be looking at behaviors. Much of conventional parenting advice is centered around changing behaviors. That's usually attempted through punishments or rewards, which are really just two sides of the same coin of control. What's missing is an understanding of what the behaviors are telling us.Behaviors are at the surface. They are the clue to what's going on at a deeper level. When we focus our attention on that surface-level behavior, we're missing what's really happening for the child or person involved, and it's frustrating and usually fruitless practice to try to manipulate behavior without understanding the why behind it. This is especially true if you want to have a healthy, connected relationship with the person. It's true that we can change behavior through coercion and bribes, but often at the expense of our connection and our understanding of one another.PAM: Yeah, definitely behaviors stem from something. We have reasons for the things we do, as do the other adults in our life. And the same goals for children. They are people, too. Whether or not they can explain why they did something is different. Sometimes adults can't explain their reasoning either. But yes, the behaviors are clues to what's going on at a deeper level.ANNA: Right. It's important to understand that behaviors are outward expressions of needs. We do things in order to meet our needs. We make food when we're hungry. We may call a friend when we're upset. We may stomp through the house when we're mad to get some energy out. Those things we do are behaviors. When we understand that behind every behavior is a need, we start to see that the behaviors are a clue, just a piece of the puzzle.If we want to understand the person in front of us, we want to understand the need driving the behavior. If the behavior happens to be undesirable, for whatever reason, the most lasting way to get rid of it is to meet that need. And while we're focusing on parenting and children in this episode, it's really the same for every relationship.When we think of behavior as a clue, it changes the energy around difficult exchanges. We're bringing an open, curious mindset to the situation to solve the puzzle. What's driving this behavior that's causing problems? Problem behaviors can range from fighting with a sibling to not brushing their teeth.Turning first to HALT gives us a quick check-in about needs that often drive behaviors, and we've talked about it before, but just a quick reminder is to see if the person is hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. These are contextual things that impact behavior and meeting the need will stop that behavior quickly.The thing is, kids want to fit into a family system. It's biological, because it's needed for survival, but things can get in the way. Things that they may not be able to articulate, and that's what we want to help them discover. What's driving a particular behavior? Not only so we can eliminate the behavior that might be causing disconnection or even harm, but so that they can start to learn about how to recognize the need themselves and choose ways to get that need met that actually help them stay connected, which furthers the goal for them.And I would say HALT is probably at play with like 75% of issues. But there can be so many other things, too. A tough day at school, a mistake made earlier that they keep replaying, worrying about something in the future, stress in the family, worrying about things that are happening in the world.Needs can range from things like needing certainty, needing to feel safe, needing to feel connected, needing to process, needing to be alone, needing to be heard, and on and on.There isn't a formula, but the better you know one another, and as trust is built, the easier it will be to uncover the needs through inquiry and conversation, keeping in mind that these are not like long sit-down conversations, but gentle inquiry with the energy that you want to help and understand. Even just saying, "I'm here, I want to understand," can go a long way. Remembering there is always an underlying need, and that's where we find the solutions to address any behavior we're seeing.PAM: Yes. It is really helpful to remember that exploring behaviors to uncover needs is a process. It's often not solved in a one and done, long, drawn-out conversation. I love that phrase you used, gentle inquiry.So, maybe in one passing conversation we validate their frustration, how their action or reaction was their best choice in that moment. We love them. Maybe another time we share an observation like, it was the end of a long day and a few things had already gone sideways. Maybe next time we won't try to do another thing. And each time we can leave space for them to continue the conversation or to move on. And we can pay extra attention to any time they approach us, maybe wanting to talk about what happened. We want them to feel our support of their processing, whatever it looks like. And in the meantime, we can be doing our own processing as well.ANNA: Exactly. Whenever we're reacting to a behavior, it is a very good time to take a look at what's being triggered in us, because ultimately our reaction is our responsibility. Nobody is making us feel a certain way. We are responsible for how we feel. And that is a whole other episode that we'll get into because it's really an important nuance.But when we're seeing a disturbing behavior or behavior we don't understand, it's so helpful to look at the context. Our first inclination is to look at the person, what's wrong with them? Why are they being so difficult or mean? Why are they doing this thing? But so often, context is playing a role. How was their day? Did something happen at school? Is there something going on with friends? Are they worried about something that's coming up? Starting from a place of curiosity and assuming positive intent allows us to look beyond an offending behavior to see the person in front of us, a person who might be hurting or in need of help. And understanding the context helps us not to go to that place of condemning the person or the relationship, and it helps our children learn to understand and articulate how something is impacting them instead of just lashing out. They can start to give words to what they're feeling.And it's really helpful if we start using the language of context in our days. And I like to call it narrating. It's things like, it was such a long day today, I did not eat enough. And I can tell already I'm feeling snappy. I'm exhausted and I can tell I might lose my temper if I don't go to bed soon.Narrating what's going on for us does a couple of things. So, it helps those around us to know that our foul mood isn't about them, and it helps model for our children how to understand context and communicate about it and the impact of it with the people around them.Our job then becomes to listen when they communicate to us, when they tell us that they're too tired to do something or they've had a tough day, listen, and give them space or an extra cuddle or a listening ear. While we don't always understand why someone feels the way that they do, we want to trust in their knowledge and honor it. And again, it goes so far to helping build our connection and our understanding.PAM: Yes. Just to help them feel seen and heard in that moment. Because yeah, the underlying need is just more context that we can gain for that behavior in question.When we judge the behavior as bad, we send the message that we don't love them when they behave that way. So, they're feeling misunderstood. They're feeling unloved for who they are, and they're feeling alone, most likely. Because when we keep the conversation focused on the behavior, we miss the opportunity to help them process what happened, to maybe uncover the underlying need, or at least just get a little bit closer. It may take a while to find the route and then more time to find other ways to meet the need. Again, it's a process.And I definitely found sharing my own processing to be helpful, not in that big sit-down conversation way. But in sharing bits and pieces here and there, as in your great narrating examples. It definitely helps them see that my behaviors are about me, not about them, and also about how I process things. Not with the expectation that they process the same way. What it's communicating is that processing has value. It helps us understand ourselves and each other a bit better. It helps us move through the more challenging times, a bit more gracefully, with a little bit less damage to our connection. And that having hard times isn't just a kid thing. Adults have them, too. It's a human thing.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. It's kind of strange, actually, how we seem to have this expectation that kids are going to always act with intention and make choices that we deem as right when so often, as adults we do not. So, it is an interesting kind of double standard to keep an eye out for.Sometimes the issue is a behavior that isn't happening. So, teeth not being brushed, homework not being done, plates not being brought back to the kitchen. When we're facing a behavior that isn't happening, it, it helps to ask what's making it hard. Again, bringing an open, curious mindset means we're open to hearing about their experience, and that helps us find solutions together. Because it's under the behavior or lack of that we gain a better understanding and find the solutions. Adjusting at that surface level really can only happen through rewards or punishment, and you not only impact the relationship, but you're much less likely to have a plan that sticks, because you haven't identified or addressed the needs or the barriers at all.And so, I remember reading this story from a popular psychologist who's a fan of gentle approach to parenting. And the question that was posed to her was, my child refuses to turn off the light, and I feel like it's a waste of energy and money, but nothing I'm saying is working. So, the advice of the psychologist was to remove the light bulb. And then she went on to explain that the solution worked because the child became scared and then learned her lesson.I think this is a really great example of where we can peel back and look at what it would look like to explore the underlying needs instead. So, if we don't get anywhere from asking a child specifically about a behavior or to stop doing it, I want to start looking more closely and watch for clues. It could be something where she simply forgets. If that's the case, well, we could work on figuring out a reminder together. Maybe a sign on the door would be enough. It could be that the light is hard to reach. She's leaving the room and books in her arms, and she can't reach the light. So, maybe rigging a string to the light or push button light might solve it.What's interesting in this case is that we were given the additional information that she was scared and that's why she quote "learned." So, knowing that she was scared, I would really want to explore that piece with her. Hey, do you feel safer with the light on? Is it that you don't like entering a dark room?I don't always love entering a dark room. A question along those lines can serve two purposes. It helps me get to the bottom of the behavior, but it also connects me with the child. She knows I'm interested in what her experience is, and then I can learn how she's seeing the world and what her perception of the situation is, and I can gain a better understanding of how our perceptions may differ.And at that point, we can look at, what about a nightlight that comes on automatically when the room gets dark or switch to LED-type lights that don't cost very much and meet my need for energy efficiency and meet her need for a light. And in the end, I might just say, you know what? Those few pennies a day to leave the light on, I'm okay with that for my child to feel safe.And I think what's key with any kind of conflict is to move beyond the surface. With this example, we have one person who wants the light on, one person who wants the light off. Those seem like diametrically-opposed views, but if we peel back and say, okay, but what's happening underneath of that? Then we can find solutions that feel good to both parties and that actually meet both of their needs, even though that solution was not the solution that worked, the turn it off or leave it on.And that's what I love about looking beyond the behavior to the underlying needs, because I think so often, we feel like we're faced with these situations that seem completely unsolvable. How are we ever going to bridge this gap? But when we start looking at the needs that are driving the behaviors, we can usually find, oh yeah, what about this? What about that? Oh yeah, that would work. It opens up this creativity piece that just is a game changer.PAM: Yes, because it's that creative piece that I love so much now. When we have two or more needs that are at first pointing in different directions, what are other possibilities? And I just love your light example. What if I don't want to scare my child into doing what I want them to do?And, as you were talking about that, it reminded me of the general parenting conversations around the idea of natural consequences. Sometimes parents seem to be setting up their kids for what they call natural consequences, almost wanting things to go wrong.It just feels like another guise for punishment to teach them a lesson. But there really are so many other possibilities. And we don't need to first find the right answer and then implement it. Each time we try something, we learn a little bit more through the experience. So, how did it go? Did it work for you? Did it work for me? What felt a bit off? Knowing what we know now, how might we tweak it?So, maybe at first it's like, oh yeah, I just forget to turn off the light. So, we put up the sign and it's still happening. Oh. So, maybe it's not just forgetfulness. And then we can dig a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper, and we try different things. And then eventually we really do get to that fear piece because subconsciously not wanting to turn it off doesn't bring to mind to remember to do it right. So, you can absolutely see how, at first we can think it's just a forgetfulness thing. But really once we get underneath and find what that root need is, it's a whole different set of possible solutions that can come up for us. Again, it is a process. I think that's a really big takeaway.ANNA: It really is. It's a process and one that I would say is so much more enjoyable than this kind of bickering and power play business. Because again, there's just such a different energy about, hey, let's try this, or, this isn't feeling good to me, so let's try these things. And yeah, okay, that worked, but that part didn't. It becomes this exchange we're having with the person in our life to get to a place where we both feel good.And I mean, that's just such a different energy than this punishment and reward and anger and bickering. And so, I would much rather spend my time working with my child than arguing. And that goes really for anybody. That's the happy, connecting work and it's just the energy that I want to cultivate in my home and in my life and with the people in my life.PAM: I know! Because the people in my family, they're the ones I want to feel like we're a team together trying to figure things out, not at odds with each other. It doesn't mean, again, that we don't argue, that behaviors and things don't happen that feel disconnecting or are hard for us. Yet, we can still bring that energy of figuring it out together. It doesn't need to come to a head as a conflict where one needs to be right and one needs to be wrong. Or, as a parent, I need to have power over my child and tell them to do my answer, because I think it's right and it's right because it would be the right answer for me. And our kids are different. And our kids are people. And what the underlying need for them that they are trying to meet is important and is valuable.And when we come at it with that energy of being a team and figuring it out together, oh my gosh. It changes the energy of the home. It increases connection, cultivates that connection that we want to have with them. And they learn so much more about themselves. And that's something that will last them their whole lifetime. ANNA: Yeah. It's really true. And it is so important to remember that what solution makes sense to us may not make sense to our child or to our spouse, or to our friend. We're all different. We're going to keep saying it. And it's not that our idea's wrong. It's the right answer for us and it's okay to present it and let's have it as a conversation piece, but always remembering that it may or may not resonate with the person in front of us. And if I want to learn and be connected to this person, I want to give space to understand where they're coming from. So important to remember that.Okay, so here are some quick questions and ideas to think about this week. So, this week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need that you're trying to address. Often we act or react in the same way over and over again without thinking about it because it's kind of become a habit. So, just bringing some intentionality back to considering the need at play, I think, can just be a really helpful process, because like, hey, what am I trying to meet with this need of this behavior that maybe even a behavior that I do all the time? So, I think that could bring that intentionality.PAM: Yeah. I do think it's a lot easier to start with us, because we're making the choices, we're doing our things and we're behaving in the ways that are working for us. But I do find it so interesting to start with things that maybe have become a habit for us. Because they were a habit back when, when that was maybe the best way for us to meet that need, but to take a little bit of time to remember, because once we have the habit and the action, we do that without thinking pretty much. That's kind of the definition of a habit. So, when we can take a moment to think, so why am I doing it that way? And going back to the underlying need, we may find that there is a new way or a different way to address it that makes more sense for us now. So, even if we don't extend it anywhere else, it can be helpful.ANNA: And it's going to help you communicate about it, too. So, if someone doesn't understand that behavior and you figure out what the need is, that's much easier to communicate to someone else than a behavior maybe they don't understand.Okay. So, number two, next week with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need that you're taking care of, to your children. Give a sentence or two lightly, no expectation of a response from them. None of that, but just start to narrate a little bit more about your day and why you're feeling a certain way or why you're doing something and just see how that feels and how it lands and how that can definitely smooth things. It just helps people understand where we're coming from or what's going on for us.PAM: It made such a big difference for me, because I just always imagined people were reading my mind or everybody felt the same way. So, there's this reason why I'm doing this thing, why would anybody else wonder about it?ANNA: That's a big thing. I think we get told like, well, nobody can read your mind, but we really do think that people think the same way that we do. And so, of course they would make the same exact decision. No, they will not. Oh my goodness.Okay, so three, think of a behavior from your children that is rubbing for you. List out some possible underlying needs that they might be trying to satisfy with these behaviors. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. See how that fits. Did one of those possible needs make more sense? Did it help you understand why the behavior was happening? And so, I think that will be very interesting.And lastly, number four, thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child's behavior? This can help you bring awareness to the context, to not focus only on the behaviors and their impact. And so, with this question, what we're asking again is just, yeah, let's look at that broader context. And how could it have impacted the behavior of the child in front of you? And see how that feels to think about those pieces.PAM: Yeah, I mean, for me, once I would think bigger picture context for just regular every day behaviors of things going wrong. I really found that often I had more compassion or more empathy for the other person, child or adult, when I realized that we've been really busy these last couple of weeks. I've been having to wake them up in the morning to go do the things or to get ready for school or whatever it is. And maybe we discover it through HALT, if we're looking at it that way. Or maybe we're just looking at the bigger picture in general. But it's amazing how much that context influences behavior.ANNA: I think if anytime we feel that little tweak of a behavior that happens, can we just do a quick like, oh yeah, they had a lot of tests at school this week, or they had that big tournament over the weekend, or they didn't sleep well last night. Or they're worried about their grandmother or their whatever. Just that quick moment to think, you know what? There are some things that could be impacting why they're a little snippier, why I'm a little snippier, why we're all feeling that way.And again, then we can narrate and bring those things out into the open and we can say for ourselves, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night and I'm feeling really tired. Or I was worried about your grandmother, because I know she was having this whatever. And we can start having those conversations, which then just opens us up for that compassion for one another, for that greater understanding.PAM: And from there, just as we finish up, let's plant that seed of capacity, just as you were talking about it right there. Our children have capacity. And when all their things are going on around them or other stresses, they have less and less capacity. That was a big a-ha moment for me with my kids, too, and their behaviors was that something sets them off which would not have set them off yesterday or a week ago or a month ago. And all of a sudden I'm like, what the heck? Why is that bothering them? Why is that setting them off? But recognizing that there were a number of other things that went wrong during the day up to that point. And that they had basically just lost their capacity to absorb something else going sideways this day or this week. So, capacity applies to children just as much as it does adults.ANNA: It does! And how that energy and how bringing that compassion, how that person feels heard, how that child feels loved and understood and how it keeps us moving towards having a calmer home, a more comfortable environment. And anyway, okay, I'm going to stop. But there's so many things here. Obviously, we keep talking about it. So, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.

In episode 19 we have the honor of falling into the deep realm of intimacy that Anna Wilkes has cultivated with Jesus. She brings us her dream she titled “giving birth after eating gluten” and we follow God's symbols and the leading of the Spirit and land in the most beautifully confirming interpretation for her current life season. It is so fun to see the hidden details God put in this dream that as we follow our curiosity end up being powerful confirmations of the meaning we had already received. Is there anything better than the voice of God?! It is easy to look at this title and think its a woman thing, giving birth, but this is symbolic birthing, which men and women both do in the Spirit realm. It speaks of something NEW coming forth, a re-birth, a resurrection- as you will see!Fav Quotes: "I think the intimacy you have in the day time is really revealed in the night time."- Anna"It moves me sometimes, I think that dreams are like love letters from God in the night. And it's so tender that he would come to you individually and speak your love language and wrap it up in symbols that mean things to you that might not mean something to anyone else." -AnnaFREE DREAM WEBINAR: 7/22/23 @ 10am PST- Brief teaching with live Interpretation, bring your dreams and lets see what God is saying! Link to Sign up hereDream Coaching with Margaux? Schedule a Free Consultation here Contact for questions: Margaux@permissiontoreign.comJoin the Community + Newsletter hereInstagram: @permission_to_reignThe Name Book by Dorothy Astoria: Link HereIntro Music by Coma-Media from PixabayImage by Claire Fischer from Unsplash

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about a helpful mantra, No Set Outcome. When we find ourselves in conflict with someone in our lives, it can be natural to enter the conversation with our solution and our needs top of mind. From there, we try to convince them and win. But when we come into conversation with that agenda, we can get caught in a back and forth conflict. Instead, what if we release our agenda before we start talking? What if we stay open and curious, with no set outcome in mind. From there, we can figure out a path forward that works for everyone and considers everyone's needs. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. What comes up for you when you contemplate the idea of going into a conflict-related conversation with no set outcome?2. Does it make sense to you that the bigger picture context of the conflict can contain helpful information for finding a path forward that works for everyone? Why? Why not?3. What blocks or fears do you find rising up?4. This isn't a “now you have to do this forever” kind of thing. The next few times conflict arises, no matter how small, can you try going in with trust and curiosity instead of an agenda? Just play with it and see what happens. But not halfheartedly, you won't learn much that way.TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! Navigating relationships can be challenging, because people are so different. In this podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, all the big Cs, and so many more.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to listen to our foundation series, which is specifically the first 14 episodes until we think of some more. But in them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over, chances are it has its own episode in the foundation series that you can check out to learn more.So, this episode is part of our Conflict series and our miniseries inside that about developing self-awareness. Today, we're diving into the idea of No Set Outcomes, and this can be confronting it first. I mean, what do you mean go into a conflict-infused conversation without an answer or a solution in mind? What, why? This can be particularly challenging for internal processors, like me, because we often like to do our own thinking ahead of time before we have conversations about ways to move forward.Yet the challenge is that when we have a solution in mind, we often come to the conversation with an agenda and a different energy. We may not even recognize it at first, but once we bring this self-awareness lens to things, we can start to see it.Interestingly, it's often easier to recognize it when we're on the receiving end. So, do you recall a time when a partner or a friend came into a conversation with an agenda in mind? Just think about that for a moment. Often you can sense it in their body language, in their tone of voice, and in the words they choose, which are often a bit more presumptuous and maybe belittling is how they can feel. They tend to try to dominate the conversation, trying to convince us that their perspective and solution is the right one. When that happens, we can feel like our perspective isn't being heard or respected, like we're being bullied into accepting their solution. We can worry that they'll think less of us if we don't agree, and it just doesn't feel good.So, now let's take a moment to flip that. How does the other person feel when we are quite sure that we have the right solution? When we come to the conversation with our agenda, thinking, my goodness, if only we could explain it the right way, they, too, could see that we're right. When someone comes into a conversation with that agenda, we just can quickly get stuck, caught in that back and forth of trying to convince each other that our solution is the right one. Conflict, one person is right and the other is wrong, which means that in the end there's a winner and a loser, and none of that helps maintain a connected and supportive relationship.Instead, what if we release our agenda before we start talking? What if we come into the conversation with the energy of being on the same team and trying to figure out a path forward that works for everyone, something that considers both our needs and goals and theirs.ANNA: Oh my gosh. It's such an important shift. And it isn't always easy. In the Be Kind, Not Right episode, I talked about making the shift from needing to prove that we're right to choosing kindness, which helps us to get to that place of curiosity and openness. We don't have to let go of the idea that we're right or that we think we have a good solution. But we can choose to be kind and give some space and hear the person in front of us. And finding whatever tools we can that will help us release the urgency of our agenda, I think, is key.Another one that we've talked about is that there's plenty of time and there's this feeling in our body when we're bringing a sense of urgency to a conversation. When we feel that we must convince them that we're right and that this thing needs to change right now in this particular way.It's such a different energy when we can switch to curiosity and trust in our ability to solve problems, because whatever is happening, it isn't feeling good for one or both of us, but there's so many possible solutions. We don't want to get fixated on ours. We want to remain open to finding one that feels good for both of us, and that is truly fostered by slowing things down, being more open, and leaving space for that. And it's such a different energy and it feels so much better to move towards a solution that way.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And notice that not bringing an agenda into the conversation doesn't mean not thinking about the possibilities beforehand. We want to get curious. It can be really helpful to spend some time considering our needs and goals as they relate to the conflict at hand before getting into deep conversations. That's part of the self-awareness that we're talking about in this miniseries of episodes. Not only will we learn more about ourselves, we'll likely be able to more effectively communicate that information to the other person involved.So, we can also get curious about the bigger picture context of the conflict, too. So, from the environment, has a similar conflict happened before? Is there a pattern to it? Does there seem to be a consistent trigger and so on. To the needs and goals of everyone that's involved, are there conflicting underlying needs that need to be resolved? To the current circumstances of each person that's involved right now, and this can call back to our previous self-awareness episodes around triggers and HALT.So, the more we explore, the more little bits of information we have floating around in our minds that we can connect in creative and fun ways to navigate through the conflict or the challenge that work for everyone involved.But to be able to recognize these many other possibilities, I do first need to let go of any outcome I have in mind when I go into the conversation. It's great to have all these possibilities. But if I don't let go of what seems to be the best one to me, I end up just picking out the pieces of our conversations that fit that particular path and just ignoring the rest, letting them go in one ear and out the other, because I'm going to use what they say as ammunition to show them or convince them why the path that I have in mind is best. But when I can release that agenda, that set outcome, and not bring that with me into the conversation, just having thought through things from my own perspective of possibilities and my needs, that just brings so much more when we can work together as a team, because there really is no one right way through a conflict. ANNA: Right. And so, I want to reiterate the point that you just said, because it's so important, which is that if we're going into a conflict or conversation with a set outcome, it really tunnels our vision. We are looking for anything to affirm our position to the exclusion of all other positions. And we're missing solutions or paths that could move us smoothly through the disagreement.And because I often like to think of things in terms of efficiency, while it seems like barreling towards my solution is the fastest way, it isn't. Because it most likely will cause defensiveness. It can create difficult and sometimes painful back and forth. I leave the person not feeling heard or understood, which we've talked about how damaging that is for connection. The easiest, most pleasant, and most efficient way is to be open to all of the possibilities. It does take a little bit more time, but it's so worth it.And I think the self-awareness piece is so critical, because as we tune in to what our actual need is, we can then begin to communicate it to our partner or friend in a non-threatening way. We aren't communicating the solution, we're communicating the need. And no one can really argue with our need. The need is something we can solve for. Just presenting our solution doesn't leave space for the other person to have their own needs or to really have any kind of feedback. But when we're focused on addressing needs, we can take everyone's needs into account and find a solution. It feels much less threatening and all sides can have their say to get their needs met.PAM: Absolutely. Yes. Communicating needs, not solutions. It's just one level underneath. And as you mentioned, taking the time to gain some self-awareness around the conflict often helps us more effectively communicate those needs. We may also discover some blocks that we'll need to explore. What's getting in our way? What are we holding onto so tightly that we feel stuck, that this is the only way? That this is the one right way? It's curious, because we can get there. We can get there. Like, I would not be happy with any other answer. Like, it's okay to feel that way. We feel that way. But it is also a great clue that, oh, I think there are some blocks there. There's something there that we want to play with.But I think what's really helpful, too, is not assuming that exploring those blocks is all about getting rid of them. Because then we can resist that, as well. Maybe we discover an underlying need, and rather than tossing that block, now we're better able to just describe the need. Now, we understand better why we're feeling so resistant, which then can open up the door to more possibilities for meeting it. When we're feeling stuck with the block, it can be because we can only see that one way forward. But when we understand that underlying need, things can definitely feel less constrictive.So, for example, maybe we find that fear is blocking us. That can definitely be helpful to dig into. So, is it a fear of being wrong? Is it of being judged by others? Is it worry that there will be negative consequences from different paths forward? Is it fear of losing face or losing power in the relationship?Where does that fear stem from and is it true? Does it make sense? And depending on how we prefer to process things, maybe these blocks are something we explore on our own and share what we discover. Or maybe they're part of the conversations we have with a trusted person. Even if that's the person we're navigating the conflict with, it can be helpful for them to see what it's bringing up for us.ANNA: Right. And I think as we dig into that and because that's a vulnerable place sometimes to share, this is feeling scary to me or this is what it's feeling like, but you can almost feel how it softens things. Because if I'm kind of coming at someone with like, I don't like this, this needs to change, blah, blah, blah, that can put somebody on the defensive.But it's like, as soon as I'm able to say, okay, I've got a lot of intensity about this because this is feeling scary to me, it's like, whew, we can soften and they can go like, okay, I don't want you to feel afraid of this or worried about this. And so yeah, let's figure out something that feels better.And I do agree also that this whole process is going to be influenced by how each of us process things. And so, there's room for all types of processing, back to remembering not to take another person's suchness personally. So, if someone needs to step away and internally process what's happening, give space for that. That's not that they're disengaging from you or that that should be a problem. It's like, hey, they need that time to come back and maybe to just calm down and figure out what those underlying needs are. And I think it can be the same if the person's like, I just really want to hash this out. Know that that's what they need and we don't have to take that personally. They're just needing that intensity and that back and forth.And it really helps in all of our relationships to be able to communicate about our needs. So, if you need to take that time to understand and to step back from the triggers, take that time. Ask for it. And if your friend or partner asks you for it, kindly give it to them, because we want to come to these conversations with our best information, not from a reactive place. So, we need to trust in each other when we ask for those things.Learning about how you process is so important. If you like to hash things out, make sure that feels okay to the other person involved. Make sure that they've had the time they need to come ready to be open and curious, to have that type of discussion. The more narration, the more information we can give each other just really changes the tone of these conflict situations.And you can see so much of this is helped by slowing things down. I'll talk about this a lot because you can feel, I get a lot of excited energy going on. Slow it down and drop that sense of urgency. Yes, we're having an issue. We aren't in agreement. And that can send us into this urgent feeling mode. But in slowing things down, we allow space to gain that deeper understanding of each other, of our needs, and we can start to see that there are options for how to move through this that feel so much better.And, for me, it's that grounding in the trust that we can work it out, that we're going to take the time to understand. We're going to communicate. And it relaxes everyone involved, because I think again, those fear can pieces can come into play. Like, we're having a conflict. Is this going to end the relationship? What's going to happen? But if we can just ground back into that trust, we can slow this down, we can have a hard conversation, and we can find solutions that feel better.PAM: Yeah, I mean, just imagine that energy. It is so easy when a conflict comes up, as you said, to feel that sense of urgency. Oh my gosh, something's wrong. We need to fix it. And that just brings a whole other layer of tunnel vision. How can you be open and curious and be able to listen intently to other people's needs and, especially if something comes up more quickly, like, oh my gosh, you need a bit of time to just process and see what my needs are underneath that. Or we can slap a Band-Aid on it, but it's going to come up again and it's going to come up again and again because we haven't gotten to those underlying needs. I mean, that has been my experience and it's just been so helpful to give it that time and space.So often, conflicts, they're not urgent. They're not emergencies. Even though we can feel that. We can reach to our tools just to help us calm down and just even help each other feel seen and heard, like, oh my gosh, yes. We have different views about this thing. Let's figure that out. And then understanding how the other person processes things. People are different. It is so very helpful just to have that context for navigating conflicts.So, going into those conversations without that set outcome in mind, not having that agenda, that trust that you mentioned, that genuine trust that together we can find a way through that works for both of us. And as we gain more experience with it, it really is a beautiful process. We come to see that conflicts aren't bad. They're not negative. They're like human beings that see things differently. Now, of course, it doesn't mean that that's easy, right? But understanding that will serve everyone just in so many countless situations over the course of our lives. When we take the experience and the understanding of ways that we can open ourselves up, not come with that agenda, in so many other relationships in our lives, it helps us move through those as well.ANNA: And just learn. It's just about the learning. If we can, when those opportunities come, instead of feeling that fear or worry about the relationship, be like, okay, we're going to learn something about each other right now because we're seeing this very differently. And that's, of course, back to open and curious, but it's such a wonderful shift and letting go of those outcomes is such a big piece of that.PAM: Such a big piece.Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week around this idea. Number one, what comes up for you when you contemplate the idea of going into a conflict-related conversation with no set outcome? I mean, I think that's a big one right there to start with.ANNA: Think about that. Right.PAM: Number two, does it make sense to you that the bigger picture context of the conflict can contain helpful information for finding a path forward that works for everyone? So, what is your first answer to that and why or why not do you think the context is involved?Number three, what blocks or fears do you find rising up when you start thinking about this idea?And last, this isn't a, "now you have to do this forever" kind of thing. So, the next few times conflict arises, no matter how small, these ideas work. Can you try going in just with trust and curiosity instead of an agenda? Maybe it helps to just start small. Just play with it and see what happens.But I would suggest not doing it half-heartedly, because you won't learn much that way. You're hedging your bets. It's like, ah, I'm going to play with this. I'm going to try. I'm going to not come in with an agenda. If I'm somebody who likes to process things first, I'm going to process things first.I'm going to have all sorts of ideas, but then I am not going to go in attached to any of them. Those are just going to be things I can pull out as I learn more in conversation with the other person. ANNA: It's just so fun to play with the ideas, because again, I think that's where the learning is. We learn like, okay, yeah, I do this. I see that I do this. Because a lot of times we don't even realize we're doing that, because we're just thinking in our head, how do we get through this? And so, it makes sense. But yeah, just playing with this, observing a little bit, stepping back and seeing like, okay, I see how these patterns happen in the conflicts that we have. And it would be interesting to try to change that to see how that feels to all of us. So, yeah, I think it's a lot of fun to play around.PAM: Yeah. Yeah. And back to your idea of being efficient, right? I think that can be something that we play with. Or we're just uncomfortable leaving that space for this conflict to just sit for a while or even just disagreement or even just seeing things in different ways. Just allowing that to sit and we start to get a little bit more comfortable knowing that we're all learning more as we move more slowly through the process. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about embracing all kinds of learning. Most of us grew up hearing that school is where learning happens and that the things that are taught in a school curriculum are the important things to learn. Honoring all the many ways that we can learn and the many unique interests that each person has is another way to deepen our connection with the people in our lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. What are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? What about outside the teacher-student dynamic?2. What does your child like to do at home? What interest(s) are they expressing through that activity? Can you think of more ways you can bring that interest into their days?3. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing they are a different person than you (check out episode 3), how can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that?4. How are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside a classroom?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14 in our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often in our conversations. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.So, today's episode is part of our Parenting series. The first episode in this series, episode 16, was about how we don't need to bring school home. Life is bigger than school, and a child is more than their grades. School can be school. In the next parenting episode, number 19, we talked about celebrating the child in front. That shift in perspective from trying to shape our child into our vision of the "perfect child" to discovering, supporting, and celebrating the unique child in front of us makes all the difference in cultivating strong and connected lifelong relationships with our kids.So, now we're going to bring both of these pieces together to explore and hopefully soon embrace not just school-based learning, but all kinds of learning. There are lots of ways of learning that don't look like a classroom, that don't require a hierarchical teacher-student dynamic. There are more informal environments like groups who gather around their interests in person or online. And people of any age can learn things on their own through watching videos online, reading books or websites, or hands on play and tinkering.Just because these activities don't look like a more formal classroom, doesn't mean the learning that's happening is any less real or valuable. Kids can learn things both in and out of the classroom. And if the classroom environment isn't a great match for their learning style, their learning accomplishments and environments outside the classroom can really help them feel accomplished and capable.ANNA: I think it's so helpful to think about learning outside of the school context. It's helpful for us as adults and then we can apply that to children, too. I think an a-ha moment can happen when we look at how we learn as adults. We tend to use a variety of methods, seeking out mentors, finding like-minded groups, reading books, researching, hands on, just digging in and doing it.We dive into our interests as they come up, and this could be deciding to keep chickens, building a shed, becoming a yoga instructor, an arborist. Each interest creates an opportunity for us to dive into that interest in a way that works for our brain.So, for me, I tend to like to read about something. I like to make some lists. I like to write down some ideas and then often talk to others who are doing the thing that I want to try. And then I want to start walking in that direction. I have other people in my family who are the dive in head first, start tinkering, touch it, do it, think about it. And then they want to seek some outside resources. And we're all just so different that way.But when we start to examine what that organic learning looks like for us as adults, not in a school environment, we can start to see that it's the same for kids. Then we can be more open to creating the conditions for them to pursue the things that they're interested in, in ways that suit who they are. It's back to being open and curious, right?There isn't just one way to learn, and that is especially true if one is thinking the only way to learn is from a teacher and a school. That can have its place. Great. And there can be room for all the varied ways in which humans learn things.PAM: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think not only is it helpful to embrace the all kinds of learning piece, it's helpful to embrace all kinds of interests. So, if the thing they love to do right now isn't directly related to a school subject or a prestigious career, it's still valuable. It's really fascinating to watch a kid in action when they're doing something they really enjoy. They learn so much, and it's almost as if it's by osmosis. They're just soaking it all in. That sponge metaphor is always around. And if they love it, it connects with them as a person. It has meaning for them, even if they or we can't yet explain what that is, but for now, it's coloring in a new area of the map of who they are as a person.And the thing is, when we look back, often we can see the threads through their interests. So, how their love of wrestling with you on the couch became an interest in karate, which became an interest in parkour, which became an interest in stunt acting. But it can be really hard to see those threads in the moment, and even more so to try to predict them into the future, right?But with the freedom to follow their interests, there's a good chance we'll be able to see those threads looking back. There is just so much value in embracing the things our children are interested in, and not just in the act of learning about the interest, but also in the development of a strong and connected parent-child relationship.And if embracing your child's interests is something that you find challenging, I do invite you to check out Roya Dedeaux's book, Connect with Courage, practical Ways to Release Fear and Find Joy in the Places Your Children Take You. So, Roya is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she has spent the bulk of her academic and professional career learning how recreation, play, leisure, hobbies, interests and passions, impact, and are impacted by mental health. She digs into why wholeheartedly supporting your children's pursuit of their interests and passions is so important, and she shares some excellent tools to help us navigate that when it just feels a little off. It can be a new way to look at things.ANNA: It is really fun to find ways to support our kids and ourselves in digging into our interest areas, because like you said, there's so often a trail of interest that leads to so much learning and then get synthesized into the next pursuits. Looking back, we can see how those trails led to the broader interest or even a passion area, but we don't often see it in the moment. So, trusting that something is popping up for our kids for a reason, a reason we may not see now, is part of trusting them as a person.We can use it as a way to connect and to get to know our kids. What do they love? What brings a sparkle to their eye? What things do they choose to do with their time? Especially for kids in school these days, they have very little free time. So, if they're using that time towards an interest, it's important to them. And us supporting and facilitating that helps them feel heard and valued. And we just learn more about what makes them tick. And I think we all really want to know our children at that deep level. And they definitely want to be seen and known by us. You and I have both worked with plenty of adults who weren't seen or understood as kids, and it really leaves a mark.PAM: Oh yes. Yes. It really does. And I feel like that can come when the parents' focus is fixed on bringing the school home such that their highest priorities are doing the homework, studying for the test, so that you can excel at school, and then rounding out their childhood with extracurricular activities. There is just so little time and space left for kids to discover who they are and how they tick.And I would also argue that a solid level of this kind of self-awareness is as valuable as knowing a general set of facts and skills as they move into adulthood. It's how we find our unique place in the world. Understanding how we tick, how we can care for ourselves, and how we want to engage with the people around us is such valuable knowledge to have at hand as we navigate our lives. So many of us need to figure all this stuff out as adults, precisely because our parents thought excelling at schoolwas the answer to everything.So, embracing all kinds of learning for our kids will go a long way to helping them navigate their lives with just a bit more grace and compassion for themselves and for others.ANNA: So much! I know for me, so I did well in school and it really wasn't a bad experience for me, but I still had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult to figure out what I wanted out of life, what things were interests of mine, not through the lens of cultural or the expectations of the adults around me. And while I know this is a parenting episode, I just want to say it goes a really long way to support the interests of our partners and our friends, too. Trusting that something is pulling them towards an interest, even if it doesn't make sense to us on the surface, it means so much for the people to be supported in the things that they want to do. It really is a critical part of every relationship.PAM: Oh, exactly. Because in the bigger sense, absolutely, it applies to all people. All kinds of environments and all kinds of interests can lead to all kinds of learning at any age. And when we embrace all kinds of learning, our world is richer and more fun. Life is more interesting.We're not just all trying to get on that same path. Building our unique selves and learning how we tick and the things that we love to do and how we love to do them. Our kids just learn so much about themselves that they will find useful their whole lives. That was my experience, too.So, whether or not you had a good school experience or a more negative one, either way, it took up time and it took us down, or was trying to take us down a path that was more generalized as society thought was successful. And I had to do a lot of picking apart for many years to try and figure out who I was beyond that.Because then all of a sudden you're dumped into the adult world and it's like, okay, go do these things. And oh my gosh, to figure out. Do I like to do that? What do I like to do? How do I like to do it? To recognize that life didn't need to be a big ball of stress all the time. That was a big part of it.Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week. Number one, what are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? And what about outside the teacher-student dynamic? Because, so often, that dynamic can also be replicated in places, just because it's conventionally seen as the way to learn. But yeah, just bring a new lens to it. How is your child learning? Think about what do they love to do? Regardless of whether or not you like it or whatever, when they're doing it, when they're doing something that lights them up, look for the learning, see the learning that's happening.ANNA: Yeah, it's there.PAM: It's there. It's there. So, what does your child like to do at home? Now, let's take that in a little bit of a different direction. What interests are they expressing through that activity? So, we're going to look a little bit deeper at it. Can you think of more ways that you can bring that interest into their days.So, maybe it's a show or a game or whatever it is that they like, if you can start to see what it is about that thing that they like. Is it the story they love? Is it the music they love? Is it the challenge? Whatever it is. And then think about more ways that you might be able to bring things into your lives that also meet that underlying interest.ANNA: Yeah, I love that.PAM: Number three. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing that they are a different person than you? And if you want to talk about that more, check out episode three. How can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that instead of always popping in to tell them the right way to feel the right way to do something, all those pieces? A little bit more space so that they can start making some choices and you can both start learning about how they would approach things, how they tick, what feels good to them.And our last question, how are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside of a classroom?ANNA: Yeah, I think I want to say about this one, because I think most of us, as adults, have been through this very long school system and we kind of were sold that that's the way to learn. So, I feel like it was a process for me to start recognizing there were different ways to learn and what that looks like. And so, I do think it's really important to just think about your own journey with that and how it's playing out for you as an adult and how you've branched off in different directions or have you? So, I think it's interesting.PAM: Yeah, I think it's so fascinating to see, not just put that on a pedestal as the one right way to learn, that it's cool and it has its place and they're learning things there. But also it's just as value to be valuable to be learning all sorts of other things that make up them as a whole person rather than just what the curriculum says.Anyway, I think this is going to be a lot of fun for people to start exploring. I'm excited that we shared this, and I thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about triggers. A trigger is an intense, emotional, negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. Triggers often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for times when you find yourself activated out of proportion with the situation. Knowing our triggers helps us be more intentional with our actions. 2. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation? What would it look like if you had a do over? 3. Have you noticed triggers in your partner? 4. What tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows.This week's episode is part of our Conflicts series, and we're going to be talking about triggers. It's so helpful to understand ourselves and our triggers and hot buttons, noticing what comes up for us when conflict arises. Understanding how, in general, we deal with and feel about conflicts can help us be more intentional with our words and actions.So, for some context, a trigger is an intense, emotional negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. The clue that our reaction is in response to a trigger is that it's often out of step with the actual situation in front of us, and it will also bring about some intense feelings in our body. That's because triggers are actually about us, not at all about the situation in front of us. They often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences, and they bring this confronting aspect and energy to the conflict for us that nobody else sees or feels.PAM: Yes. I think that's one of the most interesting aspects for me, that the intense reaction I'm feeling isn't being reflected in the other people. Like, why aren't they more upset about this? Why can't they see what's wrong with this situation? I'd get more upset, because it seemed like they didn't care and I'd feel almost compelled to open their eyes to what was going on. So, eventually I began using that mismatch as a clue that my reaction might have more to do with me than the actual situation at that moment. But it can be hard not to get immediately carried away by that rush of emotions. Right?ANNA: Exactly. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones. And to be clear, setting aside triggers doesn't mean ignoring them. Rather, it means taking the time to explore and process them outside of the conflict, to make sure we're truly reacting to the person and the situation in front of us.And the first step to that is to slow down. Give yourself some space to bring your awareness to the moment in front of you and see if others are maybe not reacting as strongly as you are, or if your reaction seems to not fit the situation. If you notice that, you can take a pause and take steps to calm your nervous system.So, somatic approaches are used to engage the relationship between mind, body, brain, and behavior. There are some great somatic tools out there that can help calm our nervous system, allowing us to act with intention again, a simple one being cold water on your wrist. So, excusing yourself to the bathroom for some quick cold water therapy can bring you back into the moment so that you can more intentionally face the situation in front of you. You can dig into whatever that trigger was bringing up later. Right now, you want to be present in the situation with your partner or child and not be confusing the situation with baggage from your past.And so, I want to talk about the 90-Second Rule, which helps us understand some of the physiology that's happening when we have any kind of reaction. So, the concept was introduced by Jill Bolte Taylor in her book, My Stroke of Insight. In it, she describes how whenever our brain circuitry is triggered, could be fear, joy, laughter, anger, the associated chemicals are released and it takes 90 seconds for them to flush out of the body. So, at that point, we have a choice. We can choose to rethink the thought that brought about that physiological response, thus triggering it again, which means we need to actively choose to stay in that place, a place that's now in the past. To keep those feelings of fear, anger, or even laughter going, we have to keep buying back into that thought every 90 seconds.And as you gain experience tuning into this process in your body, you'll start to notice the pause and recognize when you buy back into the thought. It's important to note though, that during the 90 seconds, you will most likely not be able to make a different choice. So, for example, once you've triggered an anger response, you need to let those chemicals course through you for the 90 seconds.Then you'll have a chance to bring yourself to the present moment and make a different choice.And while you may not be able to choose to feel differently during the 90 seconds, you can stop yourself from reacting from that anger, especially when you know that intensity of that moment will pass. It's so empowering to realize we have that control, that our anger doesn't control us, that we have choices along the way to react differently.And I actually had a really interesting example of this just two weeks ago. So, I was in a hotel room and the fire alarm went off. So, it's like wake the dead fire alarm in a hotel. I was in a deep, deep sleep. My whole body, like I sit bolt upright, I'm super activated, my heart's pounding. I'm like, what's happening? There were fire trucks, the whole nine yards, but about 20 seconds in, I realized that the alarm still wasn't going off. The fire trucks had passed by. There wasn't really a threat, but my body was still on high alert. Heart banging, all the things. I tried deep breathing. I tried any tool I can think of, but it was only until about the 90 seconds passed, I felt my body calm down and I took a deep breath and I was able to go right back to sleep.It was such a stark contrast and I think it was easier to notice in this situation, because I wasn't feeling the need to pull myself back into that state of alarm, because I knew that it wasn't that. I didn't need to buy back into it. I think it's harder when you're still mad at that person or that situation in front of you, but it's there. It happens. That pause is there and so, watch for it and it's pretty cool and kind of wild.PAM: Yeah. Yeah, that is such a great example. Yeah. I think it's just so helpful to play with some tools, to see which ones can help us to just calm our nervous system down a little bit in the stress of the moment.I mean, for me, a big one is deep breathing. So, a few deep breaths and not just like a deep breath, but concentrating on a slow out breath and envisioning the tension that I'm feeling washing out with my breath. Right? So, as you mentioned, often I'll excuse myself to go to the bathroom for a minute or two to do that. As you said, we may not be able to make a different choice in those 90 seconds, but we can try not to react. We can try to give ourselves space to let anger, fear, whatever it is, course through us for that period of time.And to highlight what you said, because I don't think it can be said enough, it's about releasing the intensity of the emotions that are brought out by the trigger so that we can focus on the situation or conversation at hand and later doing some work to dig deeper and learn more about the trigger and where it comes from. Because if we ignore the trigger, figuratively stuffing it down, rather than setting it aside to be explored later, chances are it's going to keep triggering just as forcefully each time similar circumstances arise. If we get pretty good at stuffing it down and moving on, we can start to feel like a martyr, which often ends up disconnecting us even more from family and friends and our loving relationships. And if we find it harder and harder to do that over time, we're kind of on our way to burnout if we're not going to process some of this stuff, right?ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. Our triggers are pointing out areas that might need some healing or at the very least, some acknowledgement and attention. So, it isn't about ignoring them, it's just about choosing our reaction in the moment that best aligns with the person we want to be.I think it might be helpful for us to just take a minute to walk through some common triggers, remembering that they are going to be super specific to each person, because it's all about our past and the things that happened and how we process that. But it can give you an idea of the things to watch for and a big piece of that is also going to be that body feeling, so, watching for that.But one of them is getting in trouble. So, this is a trigger that many share from our time in school. Sometimes it can be from our family of origin reinforcing that as well. So, if you're in a situation where maybe someone's questioning you or maybe you realize that you made a mistake, you can have this all-over body reaction and it can cloud your judgment about the next steps that you take.But you can keep in mind that, at that point, you're reaching from a place that potentially is decades past, where as a child you had very little control. In the situation in front of you, most likely, mistakes are viewed very differently and are not caused for such intense reactions. So, calming your nervous system so that you can clearly talk about what happened and ask some clarifying questions is going to serve you and the relationship much more than this oversized reaction that really won't make any sense to the person in front of you.PAM: Yes, exactly. It won't make sense, as we talked about earlier. That can be very helpful too. A trigger that I've explored pretty often over the years is the fear of things going wrong. I thought I was being helpful in pointing out all the challenges that I envisioned that could come up with whatever the other person wanted to do or suggested. It's where my brain quickly went and eventually, I rationalized it as a skill. Let me tell you all the ways this can go wrong, so that you can come up with plans B, C, and D, or just realize right now it's too risky and move on to something else. See how much time I saved you?But when I realized that my help actually created more conflict, I got curious and dug deeper. I found fear consistently being triggered underneath my professed help. I noticed that the fear was generating a kind of tunnel vision for me, in which pretty much all I could see were the things that could go wrong. And when I shared those things, others didn't take them as me being helpful, but as me not trusting them to make reasonable choices or to navigate things if they took a new turn.I came to see that when I let fear trigger my reactions, when I tried to instill my fear into my partner or my children, even under the guise of being helpful, I was hijacking their experiences and learning. So, no wonder it often led to conflict.So, I've gotten much better at instead looking at all the fun and interesting things that could come from the thing they're wanting to. At seeing their choices through their eyes, like we talked about way back in episode four, or even just getting curious and asking them what they're excited about.I also got better at asking if they wanted to hear any feedback about challenges I thought might pop up. So again, it's not about stuffing that down, it's not about never thinking about it. It's like, okay, I'm going to set that aside for a bit and I'm going to look at this first, look at all the cool things and why they're very excited about this.So, what was really interesting to me was asking them if they wanted to hear that feedback and the conversations that came up around that were very eye-opening. I learned that, so often, they had already thought about that same challenge and had a plan in mind in case it happened. And what was super fascinating to me was that their thinking about that wasn't driven by fear. It was just part of thinking about how things might unfold. They were just more clues to me that fear didn't need to be part of the picture, part of the conversation.ANNA: And fear is such a big one for so many of us. And it is interesting, I think, to tune into any kind of habituated responses like that, especially if we notice they're causing ruptures or disconnections in our relationship, because I feel like, just like you found, just scratching beneath that surface will reveal some kind of trigger, some kind of fear, some kind of something that keeps bubbling up that we've kind of put a habit around that really isn't about the moment and just keeping us from looking at it.So, one of my triggers is around control. So, I don't like to be controlled, and if I get a whiff of someone trying to control me, I'm going to start bucking. The challenge for me is that my reaction is usually not in proportion to what is actually. So, I do my best to notice it rising in my body. For me, it's a very physical experience and I like to name it just for myself. So. I'm like, okay, you're starting to feel controlled. Let's take a closer look and see what's actually happening here.And so often, I mean, honestly, I'd say like 99% of the time, it's all about that other person, and they really aren't intending to control me or really even thinking all that much about me at all. And perhaps it's they're not feeling heard about something or supported about something. So, if I spend that time to really listen and understand where they're coming from, then we can find a path through whatever the issue is.But if I start bucking against this perceived control, then the conversation invariably goes sideways. And it's just so often, again, it's just this defensive reaction in me doesn't leave space for any learning about what's actually happening for that person in front of me.PAM: Exactly. Because so often, we can quickly shift the conversation to be about the trigger instead of what's going on in front of us. Like what? And they're like, what the heck happened?A bit of a twist on that for me is that agency is very important to me, meaning choosing what I do. So, what can happen often is I'm intending to do something soon, then someone, often my partner, asks me to do the thing. Well, suddenly, yes, that whole body rush. Suddenly it feels like I've lost my choice, my agency. And now I'll be doing the thing to meet their request rather than doing it because I want to do it, even though I was already planning to do it. Resistance just immediately floods through me, and I need to work through that first, find my choice again, and then do the thing that I wanted to do all along.What that also means is that I am careful with my asks of others so that they aren't received as demands and leave space for a cheerful, "Yeah, I was already planning to do that this afternoon."ANNA: Yeah, I have definitely felt this one, too. And again, for that person asking, either they may just be processing out loud, they may be trying to check things off of our joint list. They're not trying to take away my agency and it still feels like they are. So, recognizing that trigger just helps me not snap back at that and just like, okay, that's about them. I'm planning to do it. It's almost even hard to kind of explain why that triggered reaction so intense. Because it doesn't make sense to the situation.And that's, again, your clue to say, okay, this is not about this person or this situation. This is about something that stems from long ago, most likely.And so, I think another flip side of this is that it can be really helpful to recognize when someone you're talking to is triggered. So, that will help you not take their actions personally. You can see that they're bringing an energy from somewhere else into the conversation and at that point, you can help slow things down. That will give them permission to slow down as well. It's never a time to push a point when you have somebody who's triggered in front of you. It will not go well. Asking for a break for yourself can give them a moment to regroup. Sometimes there's space for gentle questions, but often it's just better to just slow things down and allow them to ground back into the moment.We don't want to meet that with defensiveness or I really think you'd see when you start looking, that's where so many conflicts happen.In our closest relationships, I think it can be helpful to talk about this beforehand and have a plan if one of you is triggered. You can each decide what would feel okay in the moment. Is it moving towards a break? Is it a code word? Is it a somatic tool? Having some tools handy will help you both navigate those moments, so that it doesn't spiral into a deeper conflict. Because when we're in our rational brains, we don't want some trigger from our childhood to be impacting this relationship in front of us.PAM: Yes. When we begin to recognize when we are feeling triggered, it does become easier to notice it happening with others. And vice versa, because maybe we notice it in others first, which then opens our eyes to recognizing when it's happening to us. But either way, our world gets bigger and our compassion grows, I feel.And I also found it really helpful to chat with others about triggering situations outside of the strain of conflict. So, as you mentioned, we can talk about ways to share observations that the person seems triggered without further triggering them or us. And that can definitely look different for different people.How would you prefer someone to share that kind of information with you? And we can chat about different tools to play with to help release some of that intensity and bring us back into the moment with clearer eyes. Which tools work better for each person? How can we keep those tools close at hand and easy to access? That is another fun thing to play with. If it's a spray, if it's a smell, we can keep those things in our pocket. Put them in a basket in a main room, those kinds of things, because these are positive things, these are helpful tools. It's not like, oh my gosh, I'm failing, so I need to go and do this thing. Right? Not that at all.And we can also chat about different ways to approach conversations that have a better chance of just not triggering the other person's trauma or bad memories or fears. We don't want to trigger that so that it rushes to mind for them. So, it could be something simple as a change of phrase or Tone, as you mentioned, or energy. That can sometimes be all it takes not to trigger a trigger in the first place.And we can talk about how each person likes to process things like challenges and triggers. So, are they or you more of an external processor wanting to talk about it as they or us peel back the layers? Or more of an internal processor wanting some quiet time and space to think things through on their own? Or is it more of a mix dependent on the circumstances?And of course, all of these are not one and done conversations. We'll learn more and tweak things along the way. We'll try out a tool. It helps. It doesn't help. Maybe it helps for a while and then it stops helping as much. But this deeper understanding of ourselves and our loved ones most definitely can help us navigate conflict and triggers with more grace and compassion.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, it's a process, but with this greater understanding of ourselves, with this shared language that we're talking about, we'll be able to cultivate an environment where we can stay connected. We don't take things personally and we can remain open and curious.And I think, again, as we've been talking about, just bringing awareness changes what's happening in the home, because we have this language, we have this understanding, so it's not just running through the motions and kind of repeating the same fights, or repeating the same triggers or getting triggered every time something happens. So, I really love just these simple things that just bring new language and new awareness to the situations.PAM: Yeah. I feel, for me, the biggest thing was it helped me not take things personally. Understanding the nuances of all these different situations and how all the different pieces of who we are play into the relationship and conflict and conversations and triggers and all those pieces help me understand that, oh, this isn't all about me. And it's not them doing something wrong. It's just who we are. And that was so valuable to me in navigating relationships.ANNA: 100%. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions to consider this week. First, are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for themes when you find yourself activated, that seems a bit out of proportion with the situation. And be honest about that, because sometimes we're like, no, it was that serious. But the feeling in your body, you'll start to recognize it. Knowing our triggers really helps us be more intentional with our actions. PAM: It's feeling it in our body and like as you mentioned, it's like, no, it's not the trigger. If it happens multiple times. Like if it keeps happening over and over in similar situations like that, because the first 10 times, it's like, no, it's the thing. Yeah. Why does this thing keep happening?ANNA: It's not the thing! Oh my goodness. Okay. Number two. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation and what would it look like if you had a do-over? And I think that'll be interesting as you kind of recognize like, oh yeah, that tone, that something, is a trigger for me that then we kind of have this escalation or this same conflict.PAM: And I like the idea of thinking of it as a do-over, as in it helps us to more easily bring to mind choices in the moment. Because so often, when we're triggered, we just see the one thing. We're very focused on the one thing. So, we do our little bit of help to get us through those 90 seconds, through that first thing. And if we've thought about other possibilities, other ways we might choose to react, other kind of questions to ask in the situation versus declarations, if we've got that, it's closer to top of mind. So, over time, we can get to them a little bit quicker so that we can change, make a different choice, in recognition that we have a choice. And then as we talked about over time, we can tweak that and play with it.ANNA: Definitely. So, number three, have you noticed triggers in your partner? And so, this is interesting, because like you said, as we recognize it in ourselves, we start recognizing it in others, but it's also that repetition that you're talking about. So, it's like, oh, every time I ask them about this thing, they kind of get snappy with me or whatever. Okay. Most likely, that's not about your question or what's happening. There's a trigger that's being set off that would be helpful to understand. So, look for those, again, repeating things or repeating energy even, like the same energy's coming. What's the common denominator?PAM: Yes. I love that so much, because what we can do when we can start to recognize that repetitive reaction was seemingly over the top, because we can get stuck in, that is just over the top! I should be able to ask that question, so I just keep asking it again because their response is wrong.ANNA: If I just keep asking, it's going to get better.PAM: They'll figure it out. That might be a trigger. It's almost a response that they aren't able to control. That's when I can start thinking, oh, I'm going to play around with my tone, the energy, the timing of the question, the wording of the question, like there's so many ways that we can communicate something, that we can start to play with that and learn more. And then maybe in an off time have the conversation and ask them why are you feeling like that?ANNA: We're bringing more compassion to it. And again, these are the people that we love. This is who we want to be in these relationships, even if we get a little like, that's over the top and too much. Okay, so question four, what tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?I really do think this is a cool conversation to have, especially if you notice some of these repeating fights or things happening, just like, "Hey, let's figure out, how do we take a timeout? How do we do that so it doesn't end up triggering that." Because we have abandonment triggers and then somebody feels if somebody's taking a break, then that can trigger something. But if we have some agreements ahead of time, if we have some plans in place, then we don't have to take it personally. It doesn't have to feel like that. And we can just give each other the space we need to be present and be intentional about what's happening in front of us.PAM: Yeah. I feel like with those conversations over time around it, it just helps lighten the weight too of the moment, to have somebody just recognize that we're triggered, recognize and not escalate back to us even. You could just absorb it for us and just show compassion, as you were saying. That's where we're going.ANNA: We want to cultivate that. For sure. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we look forward to next time. Take care!PAM: Bye.

Welcome to March 22nd, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate the 35th state and dessert for breakfast. West Virginia; the last of the states to be created from one of the original thirteen colonies, formed by staunch Union supporters when Virginia voted to secede from the Union at the beginning of the Civil War. West Virginia is also called The Mountain State with the Allegheny, Appalachian and Blue Ridge Mountains running through the state. The newest National Park is in West Virginia, the New River Gorge National Park with over 70,000 acres of hiking, white water rafting and climbing among other pursuits. On National West Virginia Day, we celebrate from Harpers Ferry to Wheeling, the 35th of these United States of America. Anna: Hey, watcha snacking on there Marlo? Marlo: Nothing. Anna: It doesn't sound like “nothing.” Is that chocolate syrup on your face? Marlo: No. Anna: Marlo, you are clearing eating dessert for breakfast? What I wanna I know is why didn't you save some for me? Is that a Bavarian Crepe? Marlo: Maybe. Anna: Ok, but if you're celebrating National Bavarian Crepe Day why didn't you bring any for us? Marlo: Cause I'm celebrating National Goof Off Day? Anna: You are a goof off. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we're expanding our Conflicts series by diving into a favorite mantra of Anna's, "Be kind, not right." When we find ourselves in a disagreement, we usually feel pretty strongly that we have the right answer or view of the situation and we'll continue to defend and explain to convince the other person they're wrong.But this approach will never improve a relationship and it can do a lot of damage. It's valuable to consider whether it feels better to let go of some of that defensiveness in order to learn more about the situation. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. How would choosing "Be kind, not right" change exchanges with the people you love? 2. Do you feel resistance to setting aside your position? What does it feel like to play with that idea? 3. Think of a recent conflict you were engaged in. What was the underlying need you were trying to meet with the perspective or path you were arguing for? Can you think of another way you could have met that need? Might it have been met with less resistance?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hi and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We're so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and just really have enjoyed how all that's coming together. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating or review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.So, on today's episode, it's part of our relationship series, and we're going to be talking about a mantra that has served me well over many years, and that is, "Be kind, not right." When we find ourselves in a disagreement, we usually feel pretty strongly that we have the right answer, approach, or view of the situation. And we spend the discussion or conflict trying to convince the other person that they are wrong. We will defend and explain and pick apart their position. And it doesn't mean that we're holding any malice necessarily. We just truly believe we're right and that they need to understand that now.But here's the thing. This approach will never improve a relationship and it can do a lot of damage. We talked about listening a few weeks ago and how listening helps us learn and understand our loved ones and where they're coming from, but sometimes it's hard, because we really know we're right and we really want them to understand.And so, one of the quick tools that has helped me when I'm stuck there is to think of this person that I love and realize that I would rather be kind than right. I can be right all day long, but if it disconnects me from the people that I love, what have I really gained? I have to ask myself if I really want to just sit here alone in my rightness.PAM: That's such a great way to describe it, because it conjures up such a vivid image in my mind. I'm like sitting on a stool by myself off to the side. My body's upright and tense. I'm ready to ward off any detractors, just sure that my take on the situation is the right one, and I'm just waiting for them to come around.And as I just kind of sit there, it does feel disconnected and lonely in some ways. So, I think contemplating what I'm getting out of standing resolutely in my rightness is so helpful when I'm starting to feel stuck in a conflict, when I notice that I'm repeating myself, trying to convince them I'm right, yet having nothing new to add to the conversation.So, at that point, I can start by just releasing the question of who's right or wrong for now. I can always come back to that later if need be. But for now, I can ask myself some questions. So, what do things look like? What's the energy in the room? How are the people involved feeling, including me? What's my connection with this person that I love feeling like right now? What are my priorities in this moment and why?ANNA: Exactly. And this can be a time for being open and curious, which you've heard us talk about so much. Because being open, asking ourselves questions, looking at the situation with a wider angle lens, can help us see things that we've been missing. And it's like you were saying, you weren't bringing any new information. We're just kind of hammering that same thing.So, we want to open it up a little bit. I think it's important, or at least it is to me, to remember that I don't have to give up my idea of what I think is right. I can hold on to that and still choose to react to the person in front of me with kindness.What I've found is that, when I'm able to do that, I actually learn a lot about what's going on for the person. And we are typically able to actually remain connected while we navigate the disagreement, because we don't get locked into this attack and defend mode. We're really trying to understand each other better. And remaining connected is the key to smoothly navigating conflict. Be kind, not right, is just a helpful reminder that my priority is to be in relationship with this person.When I can keep that front and center, it's easier to find the softness. It's easier to remember what I love about this person and why I want to set aside my ideas in the moment to connect and hear them. And again, that knowing that I don't have to give up my belief about the right, because that can take me a few minutes, it's really just more about learning more.PAM: Yes. Yes. I really think that can be a big stumbling block. I've experienced that as a big stumbling block. The idea that being kind and compassionate with the other person during a conflict, like the idea that that means we're implicitly admitting we're wrong. When I first came across that, it was a very novel idea, that my goal when navigating conflict doesn't need to be to win, to get the other person to concede defeat. Instead, it can be about remembering that my ultimate goal is to prioritize my close relationships, recognizing that the connected and respectful long-term relationship that I want to have with this person is of higher value than the perception of winning or losing this particular battle.Absolutely, that said, it is not an easy shift to make, and part of that is definitely because the idea of winning is so tightly wrapped up in our culture as a measure of our value as a person. A win is another tick box and another tick box, and the more you have, the better person you are. But eventually, I managed to give myself permission and some space to play with it.And what I learned through that experience really was pretty amazing for me. As you mentioned, when I didn't lock myself into that attack/defend mode of communication back and forth, I instead was asking questions, trying to understand their perspective. I just learned so much more about them, about how they tick, and what they value, and why, and just how their day is going in this moment.ANNA: Yes. And it works in all kinds of situations. Just to give a silly example, let's say your partner was supposed to make a phone call to get the car fixed. You both agreed that they would make the call that day. Well, the next day arrives, the call wasn't made, and now they're changing their story.Well, they didn't know or they thought it was later. You're hearing some excuses. And so, we can have an argument about the original agreement or we can extend kindness and say, "Okay, well I guess we had a misunderstanding. No worries. Do you want to call now or should I?" Nothing is gained by me trying to convince them that I was right about the plan and point out how they fell short. It just makes them feel bad. It disconnects us and we still haven't made the call.And so, when we catch anyone in a story, be it a child or a partner, there's always something behind that. It's possible that they feel unsafe telling us the truth. That is always something I want to examine.Why would someone feel that way? Have I been reacting in anger? Do they feel like they'll get in trouble? That can be a trigger for a lot of people. But that's not an environment I want to cultivate in my home or in my close relationships, because we all make mistakes. We all forget to do things.We all have tough days.But when I'm able to show up and be kind and listen, I learn more about what's going on with them. Maybe they were overwhelmed that day. Maybe something happened at work or school that put them in a bad space. I would much rather know that and be there as a support, than to prove I was right and leave us both feeling bad.And so, this can also apply to just differences in beliefs. We'll often be faced with people we love seeing situations differently. It could be political in nature, or just the way we want to handle a situation. There's no one definitive answer for all the things. There's always nuances. And even if I feel very secure in my belief, which I often do, I will leave room for others to have their own.Because, again, if we can remain open and curious, we will learn something. It may not change our mind, but we will have a much better understanding of the other side of the argument, and that's just always worth something. This is especially true of people we want to be in loving relationships with. And what I've found is that when I choose kindness over being right, we leave the door open for both parties to learn more about each other.PAM: Yes. Choosing kindness and curiosity really helps me better understand the underlying needs that they're trying to meet. You know, why do they feel that they need to make up the story? I don't need to argue about the excuse or win the excuse. But oh my gosh. To ask questions about it, to get curious about that, and to even ask myself questions like, why is this important to me? Why is it important to them? How does their stance in this conflict or even conversation meet that underlying need for them?Because once we can get to talking about our needs rather than the surface expression of them that we're arguing about in this moment, we have the opportunity to find a path forward through the conflict that actually works better for both of us, better than the original solutions that we had each proposed and were arguing back and forth about.When we move away from the focus of the conflict being determining who is right and who is wrong, and instead choose to navigate the challenges and the conflicts through the bigger picture lens of kindness, I just find that it makes such a huge difference in our days. It's like, we're together. Right?ANNA: It's such a huge difference. That feeling of, we're in this together facing the challenges as a team. I don't want to pit myself against my partner or my children. I want to keep things open and encourage conversations and learning. And what I've found is, when we're working together, we find the ways to meet everyone's needs much faster than if we're all in this very defensive stance of trying to explain our needs and defend our needs. I don't want that idea that we have to defend our needs to be a part of the equation with the people that I love. It's like, no, we'll figure this out together.PAM: Oh, you know what I think is really interesting too, is when I'm coming into those complex conversations? It's the the fact that so often, even with myself when I proposed a solution or like, this is what we need to do, and I'm trying to convince them that this is the right way, I haven't really thought about what the needs are underneath it. I have already jumped to the solution.So, that's why taking those couple of minutes to just pause for a second, and think, why is that the only solution that I see? Opening up to other possibilities. And the same with somebody else. When they are saying, ah, I need to do this and I need to do this now, that's not literally the need. So often, that is the path forward or the solution to the need. So, let's dig a little bit deeper, whether you can do that in conversation with them or just yourself thinking about it like, oh, why is this so important to them? Why is this the direction they need to take now?And when we can peel back a layer on it and discover what's underneath and just start pointing the conversation in that direction, that's where all the rich stuff happens and the learning that we're talking about.ANNA: Right. And just one more quick thing about that, because so often, that is so important to catch, am I jumping to solutions or am I really expressing my need? Because there's a big difference. And the problem with jumping to solutions is we're jumping to the best solution for us. And what happens when we're dealing with other people is, that may not be the best solution for them in that they might want to move through that in a very different way.And so, when we get so locked in on our one solution, this being right, we just lose sight of so much, and it really can damage the relationship. And this is in business practices. This is in all areas where we just need to leave that open, express our needs, so that we can then meet the needs as opposed to barreling in with the best solution.PAM: Exactly! And when we can do that, get to that layer underneath, it's not admitting we're wrong. Because it's like, oh, there are other possibilities to meet this need that can mesh with the other people who are involved. So, right back to that, be kind, not right. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It just might be the, the proposed solution or the way you end up going looks different than what you first thought.ANNA: Exactly. It may not work for everybody. And we can still get our needs met. Anyway, it's super fascinating. I think it'll be fun for everybody to kind of think about this one for a while. So, we'll dig into just a few quick questions for this week.The first one is, how would choosing "Be kind, not right" change exchanges with the people you love? I think it's just really helpful to look at some of those exchanges. And do you feel resistance to setting aside your position and what does it feel like to play with that idea? Because you've heard that both Pam and I have had to do a little bit of work to get to that place of setting aside our position, but I think that key that we talked about there at the end, getting to your need, because your need is real and valid, it's just don't jump to that solution, because the position is really that solution that you're trying to push on someone else. And so, I think that'll be interesting to just, how does it play with letting go of that one right way and settling into communicating about needs and hearing about other people's needs?PAM: And I think thinking about it as play, like, I'm going to play with this, because if we try to tell ourselves to do it different, it's also telling ourselves we were wrong and bringing up that whole resistance to it. But it's like, you know what? Let me explore it, play with it, and compare. I have lots of experience with handling it this way, let's handle it a little bit differently and just see which actually feels better.ANNA: Exactly. Okay, last question is to think of a recent conflict you were engaged in. What was the underlying need you were trying to meet with the prospective path or the path that you were arguing for? And can you think of another way you could have met that need? And might it have been met with less resistance?So again, that peeling back to, am I communicating about my needs or am I communicating a solution that's kind of bulldozing through other people? I think that'll be a really interesting nuance to tease apart as we think about conflicts and more challenged conversation. This doesn't have to be big, hard things. This can happen in a lot of places in our life, but, how's that coming across to the people around us?PAM: Yes. And I think here is another great place to just think about that productivity lens too and the urgency thing that we've talked about, too. I need to solve this fast. I need this need met immediately. We need to do this quick. So, it can be a bit hard at the beginning to just leave some space for these more creative, different ideas. This is one way it works. Boom. No, but hey, maybe there's other path. And as you said, it might be met with less resistance from the other people who are involved.ANNA: Right, and I think what you'll find is that, it's much easier for people to validate and understand and solve for our need than to validate our proposed solution that may be impinging upon them. So, I think what you'll see is just the conversations are so different when we have that focus.So, anyway, excited as always to talk about all the things. So, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.PAM: Bye-bye.

Welcome to March 3rd, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate protecting our ears and a better bologna. Marlo: Anna, what's going on? Anna: What? Marlo: What's going on? Anna: It's World Hearing Day, we're bringing attention to hearing loss. Marlo: Wanna dance? Anna: What? Marlo: Wanna…dance?  Anna: The World Health Organization states that 5% of the world's population is affected by hearing loss. Of course loud sounds can affect our hearing but prolonged exposure to sounds about as loud as a gas powered mower can also cause hearing damage. On World Hearing Day, pay attention to the sounds around you and learn to protect your hearing. Bologna isn't exactly fancy, but this lunchtime staple has very distinguished origins. The lunch meat known as Mortadella was created in Bologna, Italy and became a food coveted by nobility and peasants alike. Its popularity grew so much that people began making counterfeit versions. This became such a problem that in the 1600s a law was passed that made counterfeiting Mortadella punishable by death. Talk about taking your lunch seriously. But make no mistake, Mortadella is a far superior product. Think of it as gourmet bologna. Celebrate National Cold Cuts Day with a sandwich made of fresh cut deli meats. Just make sure you ask for the real stuff.  I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we're sharing our first episode in the Conflicts series and we're talking about the importance of listening. We live in a world where, often, loud voices prevail. We want to get our points across, convince, explain, and control. But when it comes to our relationships, it's only through really listening that we learn about one another. Listening with openness and curiosity can improve our conversations, lessen conflicts, and strengthen our relationships.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Recall a recent disagreement with your partner or a close friend. Did you find yourself immediately feeling defensive? Was it hard to fully listen to what they were saying? What was going through your mind?2. How does it feel when someone takes the time to really listen to you? When that happens, do you feel more open to listening to them? How do things unfold from there?3. Have you noticed that you are more apt to take your partner or child's upset words or actions personally? How do you think that impacts the discussion that follows? Do similar conflicts seem to happen over and over?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what it means for how we move through the world.So, if you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some really foundational relationship ideas and have really been enjoying how they're building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.So, we've finished our foundation series of episodes and now we'll be rotating through three new series and they're going to be Conflicts, Parenting, and Relationship Tools. Today's episode is the first in the conflict series and we're going to talk about the importance of listening.We live in a world where, often, loud voices prevail. We want to get our points across, convince, explain, control. But when it comes to our relationships, it's only through really listening that we learn about one another. And through that learning, we start to understand motivations and perspectives. I would say that 95% of conflicts I see between couples or really, people in general, stem from one person taking the actions or words of another personally and then reacting from that place. And we've talked before about the importance of remaining open and curious and in practice, that involves a lot of listening.PAM: Really. It does so much. And for me, it harks back to what we talked about in episode three. People are different.While my perspective feels like the right take on a given situation, remembering that people really are different helps me, as you said, be open to other possibilities and get curious to learn more about how the other person is just seeing things. And to do that, I need to really listen to what they're saying. And pulling back another layer on that to really hear the nuances of what they're sharing. I need to shift to being open, to taking in their words. And that's where getting curious takes me.I may well still think that my perspective is the right one, but if I can make that little shift to being curious about how they're seeing things and how they got there, I can open up enough to hear what they're trying to say. Because if I don't manage that, if I try to listen while staying stuck in my perspective, there's a good chance that the only pieces I'm going to hear, that I'm going to be taking in from their words, are those that connect to my perspective. So, I'm thinking, how does that fit with how I'm seeing things? How can I use what they're saying to convince them that I'm right?ANNA: Yes. But the thing is, we aren't going to learn more about how they're seeing the situation if we're always putting it through our filter and to go with our argument. This maybe goes back to our confirmation bias, and things we were talking about a couple episodes.The first step, I feel, to really listening, is to let go of that need to defend or explain our position. That can happen later. So, you don't have to let go of your beliefs to really hear another person and I really feel like that's where we get stuck. "If I'm listening and not defending, does that mean I'm agreeing?" We're kinda like, "Hmm, I don't know how that feels." But it's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about listening to understand the situation through the other person's eyes, because without that understanding, we just get stuck in a standoff, each defending our vision of what the situation is.And we just want so much more than that from our close relationships. And I feel like quieting our thoughts is key to really listening. So often, we're formulating our response in our head and just like you were saying, looking for those pieces we can pull out that works with our story and the other person's talking and we're not listening at all, because we're just looking for those little keywords to put into our argument. But what we're missing is this critical information to understand the situation and the person in front of us.And I think that remembering there's plenty of time can also help here, too, because this isn't a race, right? If we can just drop any sense of urgency about getting our point across, it can help leave space for being open and curious. And the person that we're talking to will sense it. Just that shift alone will change the energy of the exchange.PAM: Oh, absolutely. The whole energy of the conversation shifts just when I'm open to new possibilities and perspectives, when I'm up for trying to see things through their eyes and check out episode four to dive more into that as a foundational relationship tool.To reiterate what you said, Anna, because I think it is such a common sticking point, listening attentively to the other person rather than immediately jumping in to argue my point doesn't mean that I'm conceding that they're right and I'm wrong. Productively navigating conflicts is so much bigger than deciding who's right and who's wrong, and listening is at the core of doing it well.Because there are always going to be conflicts, right? It's not about trying to get to a place in a relationship where there are no conflicts. We're different people and sometimes we're going to see things differently. So rather, it's about gaining experience with tools that help us move through conflict with more grace and compassion for the other person and for ourselves. That helps us avoid the standoffs that can do so much damage to our relationships.ANNA: Right, exactly. Because there absolutely are going to be times when we aren't seeing things the same and that makes sense. That's okay. That's just part of life and being involved with humans, you know? But we do have a choice about how those times play out.Is it a chance to learn more about one another? Or does it become the screaming match or the rupture that takes time and so much energy to find our connection again? I really do believe and have seen we can remain connected through disagreements, by being open and curious and truly wanting to understand our partner or child. They will sense that and we'll feel the difference as well.And so, one of the next pieces I want to talk about here is learning how to reflect back what you're hearing for clarity. And this serves a couple different purposes. First, you're making sure that you're really hearing the intent behind what's being said, because sometimes as words come through our filter, we can twist it to things that maybe aren't actually there. And so, it gives that person an opportunity to hear that and also shows the person that we're listening and that we want to understand. I actually like to specifically say, "I really do want to understand," just with earnestness, so that they know that even though I may be taking a minute to get it, I am committed to understanding. And it just sets a tone and can just bring down that activated energy. And this part I feel like gets easier as trust is built, a trust that, at our core, as people who care about one another, we want to understand each other and we're in this together.And I think it can also give information to your partner about how they're coming across, how what they are saying is landing, but it happens in a way that feels a lot less confrontational and in an environment of learning more about one another versus this accusing, blaming, "You're saying this," kind of thing that it can so often devolve into.And so, it might sound something like, "I can see how hurt you were when I didn't make it to your show," and here you might want to go into the reasons you didn't make it to the show, but don't. Just let them have their emotional experience, really hear them. And after a reflective statement, let them fine tune their message. Even if you get it right, they may want to go deeper, they may want to clarify.And all of this goes hand in hand with validation, which we're going to talk about in depth in an upcoming episode. But even just truly hearing somebody is validating and shows that you're engaged and care.And again, during this active reflective listening stage, it's not the time to defend or explain. That's just going to keep the person feeling like they have to defend and explain longer. And so, then we have the battle of who can defend and explain the longest. There's going to be time for you to be heard, but taking this time now to listen will make all the difference in avoiding or deepening a rupture.PAM: Oh my goodness. Yes. Taking the time to listen and reflect what you're hearing hits so many valuable relationship notes, like just giving it space, back to that urgency piece you mentioned before.So, as you mentioned first, and it may seem obvious, listening truly does help the other person feel heard. And giving that space after reflection helps them move through their processing. They're learning more about themselves as they hear it back. It's like, yeah, does that land exactly how I meant it? Or what's a little bit deeper? So, just take a moment to think about what that feels like, for somebody to feel heard. Imagine your partner or your friend attentively listening to what you are saying to them. They're really seeing who you are in that moment and fully trusting you that it's your truth. They get it.Now, when I imagine that, my body actually physically relaxes and I find myself taking a deep healing breath. I want to listen to the people I care about in a way that helps them feel that. And next, taking turns to reflect back what we're hearing helps both of us just hone in on what's really going on for each of us.I know for me, navigating conflicts can sometimes be about peeling back the layers around why I'm feeling conflicted. So, maybe at first all I can really say is that hurt my feelings. But as the conversation continues, as I listen to what they're sharing, as I contemplate that and try to put my perspective into words, I may be able to share that hurt my feelings because of x. Then maybe I connect it to an experience in my past that I notice being triggered by what's going on.As we each hone in on the fuller context of what this conflict is triggering for each of us, we learn more about them and about ourselves. And that is information that can help us approach things differently next time, so they're less likely to provoke conflict in the first place.So, engaging in this process of listening and reflecting while we're navigating conflict helps us eventually emerge with a deeper understanding of each other, strengthening our connection and growing our trust in one another.ANNA: And as I mentioned earlier, this really does get easier the more you do it, because there will be this growing trust that there's space for everyone to be seen and heard. And this is the environment that we want to cultivate, an environment where there is this deep trust and safety because as we keep saying, everyone is so different. This type of environment leaves room for that.And because we aren't taking other people's actions or feelings personally, we're able to listen and learn more, which is then forging these deeper connections. Connections that make weathering these ups and downs and all the things that life brings so much easier and much more enjoyable as well.PAM: Yes, and I think another piece that we're learning as we're building that connection is we're learning our language. How we express things, how we can express things that other people can understand. The kind of language other people use and what it means to them. We are learning so much.So, as we share examples about the way we might express something, that's the way we would express it. There may be different words that you would choose to express these thoughts and ideas for yourself. But that is what these conversations help, this listening to hear the words and what they're actually saying and what they're meaning by it, what the intent is and how they're receiving it and reflecting back. As you say, this is how we're cultivating and growing that connection and trust and learning the tools and the ways that we, whether it's we and our partner, close friends, children, the way that we can navigate, because it can look different for each of those too, right? ANNA: It will. It really will, but I think, again, you can feel the energy difference of, hey, we're going to have disagreements or not see things the same way, but we're here to learn more about each other.It's not about blaming or any of these pieces. And, like you said, that reflective piece allows us to understand how we're coming across. It allows them to understand how they're coming across to us. It helps all of us just understand, hey, some of this language that may be my go-to isn't landing well, or some things that were fine in my family of origin do not work in this other relationship. Or again, from child to parent to friend to whatever, it's all going to be different. But if we keep that energy of learning, of just being in this together and, hey, we're a team, we're going to figure this out, it's so different than this competitive, win/loss attitude that's so prevalent in our culture.So, it's very different. And yet I feel like while it sounds like a big shift, I don't know that it's that hard, because we all want to be seen and heard, so it just helps feed itself on how much easier it is and how much better it feels.PAM: Absolutely. I love that.ANNA: All right, so we are going to end with some questions to consider. The first one. Recall a recent disagreement with your partner or close friend. Did you find yourself immediately feeling defensive? Was it hard to fully listen to what they were saying? And what was going through your mind and even your body sensations? What were you feeling? Because that's really important sometimes. And like you said, when we give space for that, we can feel that relaxing. And if we don't, that amped up, activated energy really impacts the discussion.PAM: And seeing in that question, it's just our ourself doing the processing. We're going out to anybody else, so we can play with all those different things. If you didn't feel you were defensive, then maybe you want to ask yourself, well, what would reacting or feeling defensive look like? And then you could say, oh, well maybe I was saying those things, maybe it was being taken that way, et cetera.So, yeah. It is so fun and interesting just to ask ourselves questions and play around with how we're feeling.ANNA: Right. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so number two, how does it feel when someone takes the time to really listen to you? When that happens, do you feel more open to listening to them? How do things unfold from there? So, again, this is just a walk through some scenarios and feel that energetic difference. Feel how different it feels in your body, these two types of exchanges.PAM: Yeah. It makes such a big difference. Because I feel like our feelings, how it feels in our body is often maybe the first thing that we notice. And so, now it takes us into noticing that ahead of time so that, if we're starting to tense up in a conflict type situation, then it's like, oh, oh, something's going on here and I can go back to the conversations I've had before and notice just a little bit more quickly maybe when I'm feeling defensive.ANNA: Yes. So important, because we're going to get those first clues before it actually really starts to unravel, so we can start looking for that.Okay. And our last question is, have you noticed that you are more apt to take your partner or your child's upset words or actions personally? How do you think that impacts the discussion that follows?Do similar conflicts seem to happen over and over? And this is just going to be so critical, because that piece of taking it personally, number one, it is really where everything derails, but it's super discounting to the other person, too, because they're trying to explain something to us that's going on with them, and then if we make it about us, then suddenly they're either having to like, oh, you know, you're okay, or, I didn't mean this, or whatever.But we're losing that exchange about what's actually happening and it really does create a rupture. So like really looking at, am I taking this personally? And what could I do differently? Maybe ask some questions. Maybe just pause and let that wash over and really hear what they're saying.PAM: I love that, because when we take it personally, we so often make it about us and then it moves in a completely different direction at that point, which leads to that question we were asking about whether these similar conflicts seem to happen over and over, because that is an amazing clue that, oh, there is more processing to be done here.ANNA: Exactly. Because we're not getting to their thing. We're not even getting to why it's being brought up, because then we're shifting it to be about us, or it's an attack, or we're getting defensive.We're not getting to that listening stage. And I think that's really important to point out before we go too. The purpose or the side benefit about this process is you don't keep repeating the same issues. You're going to have new ones and different things, but there will be tweaks and deepening and more understanding of each other, because we are hearing each other through those times. So, we're really understanding it. So, it's not needing to keep bubbling up or we're not needing to get louder because we weren't heard. And so, yeah, I think there are so many benefits to digging into this a little bit more.PAM: Yeah. And noticing the overall pattern. As you said, we may be tweaking. And then the next time it comes up a little bit differently and a little bit differently. But if we look back over time, we might notice some patterns in there that tell us, oh, there's something over here. Because there are layers and layers and layers of all this. Oh, yes. And listening is what helps us move through it.ANNA: Yes. Thank you so much everyone for being here with us today, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.PAM: Bye, everybody.

In this week's episode we're talking about moving from control to connection. Power and control are pretty insidious, seeping into so many corners of our lives. We talk about dropping the need to be right, considering the context of the moment, and the value of transparent communication. Reaching for control is often a red flag that shows where we might want to dig deeper, to figure out what's really at play. Moving towards connection helps strengthen our relationships and makes navigating conflicts so much easier.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Next time you're talking with your partner or friend about what to do next, try adding “for me” to the conversation. Like, “The right thing to do, for me, is X.” How does that feel? How does the conversation flow from there?2. Do you notice yourself grasping for control more often in moments that have a sense of urgency for you? Can you remind yourself that there's plenty of time? Does that help?3. Do you feel resistance when someone else tells you what to do? Why? Does it feel like they've taken away your choice? Do you purposefully avoid doing that thing now, even if it seems like it might be helpful?4. Turning that around, do you feel resistance from your partner and/or children when you tell them what to do? What does their resistance look like from your perspective? Now shift and see the situation through their eyes (see episode 4 for more details).TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love if you could share it with someone in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It is super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thank you so much for helping us spread the word.So, back in episode two, we talked about connection and how connecting with another person creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, where each person feels seen and heard for who they are. Yet the cultural and conventional wisdom that surrounds relationships is steeped in power and control, which is almost the opposite of connection.Now, granted, I think many people would answer that they prioritize connection over control, especially in their closest relationships, like with their partner and children. But what's interesting is that what that looks like day to day can be a lot more nuanced than we first think. Power and control are pretty insidious, seeping into so many corners of our lives. So, this week we want to talk about what the shift from control to connection might look like in our relationships.For me, one of the most impactful paradigm shifts, as I moved away from using power and control as a relationship tool to focusing on connection, was a shift away from needing to be right, which to be clear is not the same thing as being wrong. That's one of the societal frameworks that keeps us stuck in control-based relationship dynamics, that one person is right and the other is wrong. That right and wrong, black and white thinking is overly simplistic, particularly when it comes to the complexity of being in relationship with another human being. Not needing to be right means not needing to be universally right. It means recognizing that people are different, which we dove into back in episode three.What I can say is, "This is what feels right for me." We aren't in competition with the people we love. It is not us versus them. When I don't feel the need to judge the other person's choices or interests as right or wrong, I am so much freer to connect with them as the unique person they are and to show up as the unique person I am. For me, releasing the need for the other person to agree that I'm right weaves together nicely with the idea of being open and curious that we talked about a few weeks ago in episode 11. I can know what's right for me and I'm curious to discover what's right for them. ANNA: Yes! I think our culture sets up competition and black and white thinking pretty much from the get-go, especially in school. And while leaning into that paradigm might serve us in that environment, it does not help with our relationships at all. We want to cultivate an environment where we're learning about each other, not pushing a particular agenda. And understanding we're not universally right about all the things is a big step.And if I'm having trouble finding that energy, I'll use my mantra, "Be kind, not right," because at this point, I'm usually looking at the choice of being right and harming the relationship or being kind and staying connected. And I just always want to stay connected to the people that I love, because it's from that place that we move with the most ease through our days and through any issues.And over the years, it's been interesting to see how, when I can refrain from jumping in with my idea of what's right, I can learn so much. Because we are all so different. We really can see the very same situation completely differently. And when we leave space to see through another person's eyes, we find that maybe things really weren't as black and white as we originally thought they were.PAM: Yes. Choosing to give that space to listen rather than jumping in with my two cents was a pivotal shift for me in cultivating connected and trusting relationships. There was space for me to learn so much more about my partner and kids and about the situations and how they saw them. So often, situations were, and are, so much more nuanced than I first thought.So, another valuable shift that has helped me move away from control and focus on connection in my relationships has been recognizing that so much of life isn't as urgent as we're led to believe. We first talked about that in episode eight, "There's Plenty of Time." And I really do love how so many of these foundational ideas weave together. That's why they feel foundational to us. You'll hear us mentioning, oh, this one and this one.So, when something feels urgent, it makes sense for us to be tempted to fall back on control tactics. Because we feel like we need things to happen quickly. We need to solve this fast. But so often, that urgency isn't real. It's ingrained through societal messages like, doing things faster is better. The first person across the line wins.But truly, when it comes to relationships, it's not a race. And doing things in connection is better. So, sure, it can take longer to have conversations and come up with a plan that works for both parties, rather than just telling them what to do and expecting it to be. Yet the resentment that builds in the relationship as a result will eventually need repair. So, I think it's more like a tradeoff, right? The time upfront to prioritize the connection or the time later to repair the connection. So, for me, the relationship is just much more enjoyable and fun when I prioritize the connection as much as I can versus the ups and downs of control, repair, control, repair.Enough things, when you think about it, really do come up in a relationship that need repair. I don't need to create more by stepping in and trying to control other people. Because I sure don't like when they try to do it to me!ANNA: Right! For me, it's really an energy thing. Like, where do I wanna spend my energy? Because I can tend towards controlling things in the environment, but it's like, do I want to spend all that energy trying to control humans that don't want to be controlled? Or do I want to have that connection? Do I want to do that upfront work with those conversations. And for me, that just felt better in my days. It just felt better with my kids. It feels better with my partner.And I don't know if we can ever mention the culturally embedded sense of urgency too much, because it really is this state that keeps us from tuning into ourselves and to others. And letting go of it is so liberating. When something's a true emergency, we'll know, and we'll act on it right away. Every other time, we can take that pause and tune into the people around us to really understand where they're coming from and also tune into ourselves so that we can communicate our needs in a way that isn't pushing through someone else's consent or running over top of their needs.That self-awareness piece is so critical, and it takes some time to develop, because many of us did not have our needs acknowledged as children. So, it's hard to even know what we want or why we want it. Teasing apart the cultural shoulds and have tos from our true inner voice takes practice, especially if we were discounted as kids.But as we learn to listen to ourselves, we're then able to communicate from that place. And it's more honest and it's more understandable. When we're throwing shoulds and have tos at people, shoulds and have tos that we may not even fully understand or buy into, it's just a recipe for misunderstanding and disconnection.But when something truly means something to us, we can explain the why. And then we leave space for the other person to do the same. We can have these more interesting conversations where we're learning about one another and where we can find solutions that feel good to both of us. And that begins with the generous assumption that there may be more than one right way, our way, to look at a situation.PAM: Oh, it's so true. Developing that level of self-awareness where we better understand and can communicate our why is pretty key to moving from control to connection in our close relationships, and I see it as a wonderful spiral.As we better understand ourselves, it opens us up to recognizing that others have that depth as well, which helps us give space to learn more about them and connect more deeply with them, which in turn inspires us to dig deeper ourselves and round and round. Because there is no need to wait until we think we perfectly understand ourselves and give ourselves an A before opening up these conversations.I think that's one thing I can promise. There are always more layers. Always, always. It's an ongoing journey.All right, so, one other thing I want to mention is that when we're feeling the urge to reach for control in our relationships, sometimes what's underneath that is fear rather than judgment. Controlling the other person feels like the safer choice to us. When that happens, it's also worth digging into seeing where that's coming from. It is always worth digging.So, maybe it's something we've absorbed about relationships growing up. A really simple example might be if growing up our parents were adamant that we, that's that royal family we, must always be sorry after a disagreement, whether or not we felt it. That message was ingrained in us, and now we're an adult, and if our partner doesn't tend to apologize automatically, we may find ourselves trying to convince, in other words control, them to do so. The perfunctory apology feels safer to the relationship for us, because that's the message we absorbed growing up.But is it really? As we become more insistent, they may well become increasingly resistant. Few people like that feeling of being controlled at any age. So, it's worth digging deeper to discover where we've picked up messages about being in relationship with others that lead us to reach for control, and then taking the time to ponder whether they actually make sense to us now. We've got an experience now. We have real people in front of us that we are in relationship with. Is it working? How is it working? How is it feeling? It's so worth taking the time to dig into that.  ANNA: It really is. And I think control is pretty much always hiding something. And I think you're right that it is often fear and judgment. And it's so helpful to dig into that, because then we can understand the fear. I feel like it's rare that fear can stand up to shining a light on it, when we really call it out in front of us. It tends to lurk back in the recesses. I think insecurity can also be tied up in it as well. And if we're unwilling to look at where that's coming from, it can cast this huge shadow on the relationship.I've worked with couples where one of them looks to control to help themselves feel safe. But what that looks like is saying things like their partner needs to delete Instagram or change their communications, or stop doing X. And even if the partner agrees in the moment, it's this very shaky foundation to build upon, because trust is one of the most important elements of relationship. We build trust through conversations and owning our own pieces, through hearing our partner, and offering that generous assumption.So, we can look and talk about what feels scary about Instagram, we can walk through it, own our pieces, and keep having the conversation. Because no one wants to feel controlled, and a coerced mind is not a changed mind. So, at the first sign of trouble, those shaky agreements are thrown out the window and then feelings are hurt. We need to understand the why behind actions for them to have meaning. That only happens through really listening to one another and finding a path forward that works for everyone.PAM: Yes. I love that so much. A coerced mind is not a changed mind. Just thinking for myself, for me to change my mind, I do need to understand the why behind it. I need that bigger picture. It needs to make sense to me. And pulling it back to being open and curious, I want to be open to learning more and to changing my mind, because again, I'm not clinging to my perspective, my right answer, as the right answer for everyone. I'm curious to learn more about it. It just all weaves together so beautifully, doesn't it?ANNA: Oh my gosh. It really does. And we also talk a lot about context, and I think it's important to think about context as it relates to control, as well. If we find ourselves grasping for control in our relationships, or we see our partner trying to control us or our children, look at what's going on in the wider context. Because I've seen over and over again that if work feels out of control, we clamp down at home. And if home is feeling out of control, we clamp down at work. And that leaves the people impacted really reeling, having no idea where it's coming from. And it can lead to some pretty big ruptures.So, owning when things feel hard and out of control and realizing that trying to control others won't change that. It just ends up disconnecting us from the people who could actually be providing support during the challenges. And when we see it happening, that's where I think some narration can really help our partner. "I'm feeling a lot of pressure at work and it feels like we might not even have jobs next week, and it's making me feel freaked out and snappy." That helps our partner know what's happening in our mind, helps them not take it personally. And it keeps us honest.We don't need or want to take things out on our partner, but when we're operating on autopilot, we often will, and it just never feels good.Context includes a lot of things, not just work and home life, but smaller things like sleep and have we eaten and hormones and visiting relatives and bigger things like death and major changes like moves or a new job. Even when it's something positive that's happening, it can still be adding to our sense of overwhelm and triggering that need for control. So, being honest with ourselves and really taking responsibility for how we're showing up can help so much. And if we see it in our partner, we can gently hold space for them to view the larger context, to try to make sense of the behaviors that are causing harm or disconnection.I really believe our natural state is to want to be connected. So, given the opportunity to be seen and heard, we'll choose to find a way back to it. If we trust our partners and our children in that, it will create an environment where we're helping each other and finding solutions, and then we see there's no need for power over.PAM: Yes, there is no need to exert power over others. We really can instead work together as a team. And while it is absolutely not an easy button, my goodness, it feels so much richer and vibrant and real. Feeling seen and heard and understood just makes a world of difference for everyone at every age. And that happens through being in connection with another person, where we can share that this stuff is going on right now, or, "I'm having a hard day." Even when we just feel like we've been beaten down a bit, we are snappier. We just jump to the answer, because we don't have time, or we don't have the capacity to think of all these other options. And you don't want the other person to think, oh, that's weird. They're acting strange. ANNA: What's happening there? But it's really the connection that would help us through those T tumultuous times when we tend to reach for control. So, it's like, use it as a red flag, create a culture where you can talk about when that control starts to seep in. Because really what's happening is we need more connection, and so, just understanding that can really change things in a home, especially if there's just a lot of tough stuff going on.PAM: Yeah, that is such a great point, because not only if we can express what's going on in our heads, it doesn't have to be a big, long explanation of all the things. It's like, "I'm feeling overwhelmed right now." Then not only did they not take it personally when we're feeling snappy, like you said, their support is then yet another benefit. It's like, "Oh, is there anything I can do? Would you like to go take a little break? I'll look after this for you."So, not only are we not making them feel bad about themselves, not creating a disconnection, we're also getting the support alongside it so often. So, it's just good. Connection is so good in so many ways.All right. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of choosing connection over control.Next time you're talking with your partner or friend about what to do next, try adding, "for me," to the conversation. Like, "The right thing to do for me is X." How does that feel? How does the conversation flow from there? Just opening up the possibilities. "The right thing to do is," like how closed down that feels. "For me, it's this." That just invites someone else to say, "Well, for me, I'm kind of feeling Y. Is there a way we can put X and Y together and then we'll all be happy?" That's just a great baby step to take in that kind of situation.Okay. So, question two, do you notice yourself grasping for control more often in moments that have a sense of urgency for you? Can you remind yourself there's plenty of time? And does that help? Why or why not? Is there more to dig into there?ANNA: Right. But it's that red flag. Just know that control is the red flag. Start looking at the other pieces and the context, the sense of urgency, the other things that could be happening. It just gives you a lot of information.PAM: Yeah. Okay, so question three. Do you feel resistance when someone else tells you what to do? Why? Does it feel like they've taken away your choice? Do you purposefully avoid doing that thing now, even if it seems like it might be helpful? I'm definitely guilty of that. It's so interesting to dig in and just to see, because it can happen. In our world, it often happens. Somebody's just telling us what to do, right? To take a moment to just see how that feels can be so valuable.Question number four, turning that around, do you feel resistance from your partner or your children when you tell them what to do? What does their resistance look like from your perspective? Now shift the situation and see through their eyes. You can listen to episode number four for more details. And what does it look like now? I find it fascinating to think of, what does their resistance look like? Because it's often not a shouted no in your face or, but all of a sudden they may be in other rooms.ANNA: That withdrawing or it comes back a little bit later. Just watch how, when we're trying to control other people, how it impacts all the energy of the house, even when it's not someone that we're even directly controlling. There's just so much to be aware of there, and it's usually, again, just hiding some other piece, that digging in that we talked about that's so important.PAM: Yeah, exactly. Because when we can take that time to dig in that little bit, then we can shift to the conversation that we're always talking about. That conversation brings that connection. So again, it's not like we're stuffing down the things that we're feeling and seeing, but we're being open to learning how other people are seeing it and to understanding what it looks like through their eyes.Okay. Thank you so much for listening to us chat again. We are so excited to be having these conversations with you, and we would love to hear about how you are engaging with the questions, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Take care.

Welcome to January 13th, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate ducky trivia and a centuries old pop star.  This toy was inducted into the Toy Hall of Fame in 2013 where only 52 other toys enjoy this status. Do you know what it is? Marlo & John: G.I. Joe! Anna: Nooooo! It's the rubber ducky. But do you know why we celebrate National Rubber Ducky Day on this day?  Marlo & John: No. Anna: Okay. It first appeared on the Sesame Street Calendar in 1973 as Rubber Ducky's birthday. Marlo & John: Very cool. Anna: Okay, but do you know what the world's largest rubber duck is called? Marlo: No idea. Anna: It's Mama Duck. She's more than six stories high and weighs over 30,000 pounds. Marlo: What about the tub she's in? Anna: She's on the lake, Marlo. On National Rubber Ducky Day celebrate with this and other trivia and see why this ducky is still the one!   One of the greatest songwriters in American history was born on July 4th, 1826, which seems only fitting. Over a century before Elvis Presley or The Beatles were topping the charts, Stephen Foster was making his indelible mark on American culture. While his name may not be instantly recognizable, his songs certainly are. In 1847, the song Oh Susanna became his first big hit and catapulted him to fame. It became even more popular when the miners in the California gold rush adopted it as an anthem. Later, songs like Camptown Races, Beautiful Dreamer, and My Old Kentucky Home cemented his place in the pantheon of American music. On Stephen Foster Memorial Day, we celebrate the man who created hits that have stood the test of time. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Open and curious is a helpful mindset shift for navigating relationships and challenges. In this week's episode, we dive into Pam's mantra and some of the many ways that it has proven to be so valuable in our lives. Being open and curious takes us back to beginner's mind and allows us to see possibilities and question limiting beliefs that no longer serve us. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens? Try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind. What felt different? Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist? Next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as “bad,” play with the question “Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?” TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us as we explore relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they've been building upon one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review. That definitely helps new people find us.In today's episode, we're gonna talk about being open and curious. This is something you will hear us say a lot. I first heard about it from Pam and I find myself saying it daily at this point. When you think about the opposite, it's being closed and disinterested, so it's pretty easy to see why we both love it.I don't want to move through the world feeling closed and disinterested, and it definitely doesn't help us solve problems or to connect with the people around us.Being open and curious serves us in our relationships on a lot of different levels. When we're open and curious about our partner, we want to understand them, what's important to them, why they see things the way they do. We want to set aside any judgment and really lean into connecting with the person in front of us.When I find myself not understanding something they did or said, I can remind myself to be open and curious about it, to not jump to conclusions, to not write a story, like we were talking about last week.That gives us the best chance to avoid a misunderstanding. And part of being curious is asking questions and listening.PAM: Yeah. I love this so much. I have found open and curious to be such a helpful lens to bring to my relationships. For me, it's a quick way to get to beginner's mind, which is a place where I don't feel like I have to know the answers, and I'm just curious to learn more. I often feel a sense of wonder and a childlike energy when I can get there. And it's not childish. Childlike. There's a big distinction.So, when I'm open and curious, I'm attentive and I'm interested in hearing new ideas and new perspectives. I want to learn how the other person is seeing things. I want to learn what they're interested in and why it lights them up. And, of course, that doesn't mean forgetting about who I am.To me, beginner's mind is about understanding that the world is richer than just my story. My story, the one I tell about myself, is definitely a vibrant thread, but it also weaves alongside the stories of the other important people in my life. And it reminds me that their story is theirs to tell and I want to listen. I want to know them, not my version of them.And to take that metaphor just one step deeper, being open and curious reminds me to explore the tapestry of my life, which includes the people I love and care about, not just the thread of my story, thinking it's the one right way to move through the world. It's a tapestry of unique people and stories that weave together to create the bigger picture of my life, which leads us nicely into the next aspect that we wanted to talk about, doesn't it?ANNA: It does. Because being open and curious also really serves us when there's a conflict. So often, when we find ourselves in a conflict, we have in our mind the right answer, how this needs to resolve for me to be satisfied. And unfortunately, It just rarely works out the way we plan.If we come into the conflict pushing our agenda as the only way, we put the other person on the defensive and we end up spending a lot of time defending ideas back and forth, really rarely hearing the other person's perspective at all. And if we come into the disagreement with this open, curious mindset that we're talking about, we aren't abandoning our ideas, like you said, we're just remaining open to hearing the other person's perspective.That energy is felt by the other person, and then they are so much more likely to join us on the journey to understand and figure out options. We're going to be committed to finding something that works. We're going to get there faster by remaining open and not tunneling in on our one perspective or idea or what the fix should be.PAM: I know, for me, when I first heard the advice years ago to listen to my partner, it made so much sense. So, when we were navigating a conflict, I listened. But eventually I realized I was still holding tightly to my right answer, and my listening was mostly focused on picking up the pieces that aligned with my solution, right? Everything else just kind of flew by. I truly wasn't hearing their perspective. I wasn't hearing their story. I was only taking in what I thought I could use to support my agenda or my solution, that tunnel vision that you mentioned.And unsurprisingly, we often ended up at an impasse that way. Each person trying their best to defend and convince the other that their interpretation of the situation and their proposed solution is a right one. Our conversations were energetically draining and steeped in a power dynamic that definitely strained our relationship.So, once I came to recognize what was happening, I chose to instead try to bring an open and curious mindset with me into our conversations. How are they seeing the situation? What parts of it feel important to them? What parts feel especially challenging to them? Does that make sense alongside what I know about them as a person, all the things we talked about way back in episode three that make them the unique person they are, their personality, their strengths, their weaknesses, sensitivities, all those pieces?And in these more open conversations, with defensiveness down and curiosity up, there was space for me to share my thoughts and perspectives, not with the energy that this was the solution, but as more information to consider. And without that grasping and no longer feeling like the only choices we have are their initial solution or mine, we could often find a third or a fourth or a fifth path forward right through the situation that took each of our perspectives and needs into consideration.So, it turns out that open and curious mindset not only gave me the space to learn more about what was going on, it also gave me more space to get creative in finding a solution that worked for everyone involved.The process is like a muscle that gets stronger with practice. With each experience, where shifting to being open and curious helped us creatively navigate a challenge or a conflict, it became a bit easier to shift the next time, and then the next. Over time, I found myself shifting more quickly from defending myself to trusting that we could find a way through together. Being open and curious just helps me in so many ways, in so many situations with so many people.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. I see it in so many different ways and I feel like it's one of those tools we can cultivate that gives us something to do instead of taking things personally when we're in a conflict. And that is so key when we want to navigate those conflicts with more ease and connection.And this idea is also really important if we find ourselves stuck or with some limiting beliefs. Often this involves outside voices or some cultural constructs that maybe aren't serving us. And if we bring that open and curious mindset to it, we can start asking questions. Where are these ideas coming from? Are they serving me? Who would I be without them? What other options can I find?But we can only get there if we open up our minds beyond the parameters that are being applied to us by forces that don't know who we are or what's important to us. This allows us to start questioning these societal constructs. So, if I'm in a job that I don't love, why am I still here? What's stopping me from leaving? What would life look like if I made a different choice? How would that feel?And also things we view as "have tos". We talked about this a few episodes ago as well. We can start to question those have tos. And being open and curious allows that exploration to move us away from things that aren't serving us, the things we've just accepted even if we don't like the way they feel. "Relationships should be this," you know, "School looks like this," "Being successful looks like that."All these ideas are worth questioning, especially if we're wanting to live our best life, a life where we can truly thrive.PAM: Yeah. When we realize that we can question everything, that we can be open and curious about all the possibilities, I swear it just feels like the whole world opens up. I feel so much lighter. And it's fun that you mentioned that. One of my favorite thought experiments is to play with the opposite perspective to see how it feels, particularly when I'm feeling stuck or frustrated.So, say the story I'm telling myself is, I hate that my kid wants to play video games all the time. In my head, it's fascinating to explore the question, "Well, what if I was a person that loved that my child is excited to play video games all the time?" So, being open and curious means letting the likely immediate reaction of listing all the reasons I think that's a silly perspective just float on pass, because that's definitely not being open and curious, and then just noticing what comes up next. How would I feel in those circumstances when I saw my child happily playing?Well, I think I'd be happy too, because I like this. I'd probably have a big smile on my face.And then I was like, okay, so then what would I do? If this was something I loved and I was excited about, I'd probably join them, sitting with them, and watching them play. I'd listen attentively to what they shared. And they'd probably be really happy that I'm showing an interest in something that they really enjoy. I'd cheer with them when they beat the boss or finished the level or solved a vexing puzzle, and we'd celebrate together.So, I have that vision in my head, and then maybe it would occur to me to ask myself, so what's wrong with that? It sounds like I'd be seeing their game playing through their eyes, which definitely helps me better understand who they are. And it sounds like a very connecting thing to do, which is something that I want to do. So, when I play with that thought experiment, so often I discover that things aren't as bad as I imagined them to be on the other side. And I can ask myself, why was I holding on so tightly to my fear and judgment of the thing?It's just a great tool for me when I'm feeling stuck around what often turns out to be a conventional message that I've absorbed, that once I take some time to play with it and dig a bit deeper into it, I discover it really doesn't make so much sense to me in my life in this moment.ANNA: Exactly. And I think it's so interesting that we can find ourselves defending and enforcing ideas because we think we're supposed to, yet, when we choose to examine them, we find they don't serve us or our relationships at all. And that open and curious mindset allows us to tune into ourselves and evaluate ideas related to who we are and how we want to move through the world.Another time I use this idea a lot is when something bad happens, especially something that I might initially label as bad. Instead I can say, hmm, I wonder what's going to happen here. I wonder what's coming next. I don't have to have all the answers. I don't know all the things.So, being curious allows me to look for new directions around things that might first be considered roadblocks. I don't want to be shut down by what happens to me and around me. And the fastest way for me to avoid a spiral is to start asking questions and look at the issue with a wider lens, not jump into the judgment about it.PAM: Yeah, that makes such a big difference. When you can just know that there are other possibilities. We talked about that tunnel vision, and we can especially feel that when something is going wrong or bad around us and we can get really fixated and pulled into that. But when we can take a step back to start asking questions around it and just looking a little bit bigger picture, that really keeps the possibilities bubbling.ANNA: Right, and I think it's related to the things we've talked about with time. There's plenty of time. Because that's the other thing. You feel the expansiveness of that open curious mindset. So, when something happens, instead of locking in and the judgment, you can feel that expansiveness of, hey, I can take a few minutes to kind of look at this from the wider perspective. So, I like those inner things that we can find energy shifts, because that's what can help us move through any of these challenges, bumps, conflicts, whatever, with a little bit more ease.PAM: Exactly. The energy is the whole thing, because the energy is, is ours, but it's also the energy that we're bringing to our interactions with everybody around us. It's so helpful.ANNA: So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of being open and curious this week. How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens?Number two, try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind, and then look at what felt different. How did that change how that conflict played out?Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist that maybe you didn't see at first?And next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as bad, play with that question. Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?So, hopefully you'll take some time to think about those questions and about what an open and curious mindset could bring to your life. And we really appreciate you listening and being here with us today, and we will see you next time.PAM: Yes! Bye.

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the power of story. Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they're all a version of the truth. But we get to choose which version resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, and then that informs our actions moving forward. Getting curious about the stories we tell can be an amazing form of self-care!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What stories are you holding on to about yourself, your partner, and your family?Where are the stories coming from? From your parents during your childhood? The outside voices of society? Somewhere else?Do you see the story in your self-talk? How else might you tell that story?How does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own stories?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are very happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about stories, both the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we assign to other people, meaning what we think they're thinking. And yes, it can get very messy.Now, this episode is a bit longer than usual, but we think it's worth it. Stories are intricately woven into our relationships with the people that we love, and that's because humans are storytelling animals. It's how we make sense of our world. In the book The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall, he wrote, "Story is for a human as water is for a fish - all encompassing and not quite palpable." I love that so much, because story truly is everywhere. And the language we choose makes a profound difference, because the stories we tell ourselves become our self-talk. That is why we want to be intentional about the language that we're using.And what's really fascinating is that for pretty much any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it and they can all make sense and all could truthfully tell the story of that situation. And the thing to realize is, we get to choose which one resonates most and feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward, which calls back to our conversation in episode seven about how every moment is a choice. Stories and choice are woven together so well, aren't they?ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much. For me, truly understanding the role of story has been so pivotal. That awareness allowed me to step back and observe, so, where's this story coming from? Does it feel real to me and who I am in this moment? Is it serving me? And if I've held onto it for a long time, why? Why have I held onto that story? And who would I be without it? That's one I love to think about. Who would I be? What would it feel like?Because there's an energetic feeling to that. What do I feel without this story that I'm telling about myself or these people in my life? And those questions really can only come about once you take off the veil and realize that everything is a story. Then I get to dive in and have these questions. And through the questioning, I can hone in on what is really working for me.And then I can start to change my story to be more reflective of me as the person I am now, the person I want to be moving forward. And I could see the role of story more clearly and use it as a tool instead of being held hostage by it, which is kind of how it felt before.And for me, like you said, language is such a big piece of that. I try to be so intentional about my language that I use, whether I'm defining some kind of big event or a very simple task in front of me, because in that language is choice. I'm developing the story that informs my day and tells others who I am. And so, that piece is so critical to me, just seeing it for what it is. And then, how do I want to create my narrative? What language do I want to use to describe it? I like thinking about it. PAM: Yeah. And once you see the scope of it, it's incredible, because it's not only the stories that we're telling ourselves, but it's understanding that the stories we're telling others about ourselves and about our lives is the picture that they're going to draw from. That's where they're going to meet us.So, first, let's look at our self-talk, at our inner voice. Sometimes we don't think we have control over our self-talk. It just appears in our head, the words over and over and over when we're spiraling over something, right? But we truly can change that over time as we make intentional changes to the language that we use and the stories we tell ourselves.It is worth taking the time to listen to our self-talk a bit more objectively, to just ask ourselves, is this a helpful story for me?ANNA: Right, because we have the self-talk, and we don't think we can change it. I think that's something I believed when I was younger. It's hard to change or we're given this story that it's hard, but I think we may assign it more importance than perhaps serves us. So, I love the idea of really diving into that, because self-talk is just an aspect of our story. It's no different. It's no more powerful. And it's not this boogeyman that it's kind of made out to be.And sometimes our self-talk is the stories that have been handed to us, perhaps by our parents or past relationships. And what's so important there is to realize that the stories they told, even if the story is about us, is their story. It's not ours and we don't have to take it in and own it. It's about them, where they were at the time, the stories that perhaps they were handed.And so, that's the thing, right? We can just keep continuing to hand down these same stories or we can take control of our own narrative. We can look at who we really are and what's actually in front of us, and then write a story that lifts us up, because that helps us be the person that we want to be and it will inform our next steps in a given situation. And I think that's what's so important about it. That's how insidious stories are. When we carry these stories from someone else, they change our energy and then they inform our next steps, and it keeps us on this same narrow path.But at any moment, we can take back the reins. We can examine the stories that we're clinging to and we can make choices because yes, Pam, it's always about choices with me. We're going to keep bringing that up.PAM: Yes. Definitely. I love the point about realizing that the stories other people are telling about us, especially the stories we grew up with, are just somebody else's perspective. It's their story. So, maybe we've absorbed the story that we're too sensitive, or we're scared to try new things, or we're very shy. That isn't our story. It's their story about us. And we get to choose our own story.Speaking of, it's also helpful to realize that goes both ways. So, for example, take a moment to consider the stories we're telling our partner about our day. Maybe we're more likely to take it as an opportunity to vent. "I am so tired," or, "So many things went wrong today." Is that what I want to convey? What will their view of my day look like from my story? Maybe that I'm so tired because I was busy having fun playing with the kids, or deep in the flow of working on a favorite project or knocking a bunch of those tasks off my to-do list.Maybe more things unusual went wrong today precisely because I was working a to-do list that was filled with those iffy jobs, and I got them done in the end. But how will they see my day through my venting words? Probably not as the ultimately satisfying day that I saw. So, understanding that the stories I tell, big and small, live on in the world reminds me to be more intentional. Now that doesn't mean not venting, but maybe prefacing it with a quick qualifier. Like, "My day was great. I just want to vent about a couple of things."It means considering who I'm speaking with and choosing my language to better convey the meaning of my story. Is what I'm saying true? Is it how I want to be seen by others? What do I need or want from the conversation? Because stories are the lifeblood of communication.ANNA: Yes. And I think it's interesting, too, thinking about that. What do I want to get from this story? Because if we do come at our partner with all the things that have happened in the day and then they come back trying to solve things and really we're like, "Wait a minute, it's just a story we're telling about how we had these tough things," you know? So, keep all that in mind. It's the lifeblood of communication. I don't think that's an overstatement. I think that's really so true.And so, keeping in mind that others will see our story through their lens, what they know, and that's okay. Understanding that helps us put their comments or reactions into perspective as well. Back to everyone is different. We see and experience the world differently.PAM: Yes. And that is absolutely a wonderful thing. We have control over our stories and what pieces we choose to share and how we choose to share. Understanding that other people come to conversations with their lens, too, so, not expecting them to fully understand what it looks like through our eyes and not even expecting them to even be curious to understand. We can't control where they are on their journey.Now, I also want to talk about the stories that we assign to other people, because so often we tend to assume the worst story. For myself and many others that I've spoken with, when we're feeling disconnected from someone or they react negatively to something we've said or done, the story we immediately tell ourselves is that we did something wrong, but often that really isn't true.It's so helpful to remember that, when we're thinking about what someone else is thinking, that is a story that we're making up. No matter how well we know them, we still don't know for sure. So don't assume that the first story that we jump to is the same story that they see. ANNA: Yes. So often, we find ourselves putting words into people's heads, and we will actually play out the scenarios till the end without the other person involved at all. "They're upset with me. I did something wrong. They don't like what I'm doing," whatever the words were saying. Even, "They're trying to hurt me. Their actions are intentional towards me." So often, we get that very wrong. We really don't know what's happening in another person's head.I have a friend that will honestly just create entire movies and the challenge with that is, it doesn't leave room for anything else. Once you've created a story for someone, you start acting from that place with that energy. So, if you've ever had one of those dreams where it's so real, your partner has done something terrible and really upset you, and you wake up and you're still super mad and they're going like, "What is happening? I just woke up. I don't know what you're talking about!"But it's the same when we create a story. We can buy into that energy and bring that energy to the person and they have no idea where it's coming from. But instead, if we can first assume positive intent, second, we can ask questions and leave space and remain open, then the person's free to share what they're actually feeling. And so often, it does not come close to the stories that we're making up.So, I have a friend and a while back, she shared a story and she didn't share it as a story. She shared it as a fact. She said that her husband didn't find her attractive. And she said, "He actively avoids even touching me when we walk each other past each other in the hall." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Have you talked to him about that?" And she was like, "Well, no." And then when she did, she found the complete opposite was true. He was trying to be respectful of her space. So, he felt by moving aside in the hall, he was showing respect for her space and honoring her.And so, then they had this conversation around what would feel good to each other and how they want to move forward. And it's very different now. But she had been telling that story for years and he had no idea. That's just how insidious these stories are. And I think it's just really worth examining the stories that we put on others, even when we feel it's justified, even if we think we know them so well, even if we've held onto these stories for years. Conversations are so important. Being open and curious. Leave space for people to tell us who they are. Pre-writing a detailed story does not.You can feel that closed energy when you come in with this pre-populated story and it's so disconnecting. Even some light inquiry can shed light on what's really going on and give space for each person to share their perspective. And then we can understand where the communication broke down in the first place and why maybe we're seeing it differently, but that won't happen if we stay in our head creating stories. That will only happen with that choice of connection and that choice to have some conversations.PAM: Yeah, sometimes I can get stuck in a really negative story about someone else, and I just don't feel confident enough to ask about it yet or bring it up. But when that happens, I found it helpful to just remind myself that it's a story and then start to play with that. How else might this story go? What about this? Does that fit? Maybe this? So, once I think of a few other things, even if they seem outlandish to me right now, I realize that there isn't just one possible story. It wasn't just the one thing that I was clinging to and being upset about. That lightens things up for me.And usually, when I'm feeling lighter, now I can get curious. Which one is it? I want to know now. And then usually I can get to the space, the energy, where it doesn't feel so heavy and I can actually bring up the conversation with them. I can actually go, "Hey, what about this? What did that feel like to you?"On the flip side, moving through that process over and over helped me realize that I really don't know what's going on in another person's life that has led them to make whatever choice it is that they made. That's their story, their truth. That's been a very helpful discovery on my journey around stories, just that realization that these are stories. My story, their story, it's their truth in the moment. And that is just enough. I can be curious then. It reminds me that there are multiple ways that things can go.ANNA: Right. And there are just always more layers, I think, to peel back on our stories, which kind of leads nicely to this last bit we wanted to talk about. We get to choose the stories we tell. And we touched on this back a bit back in the choices episode, but I want to bring it up again. We choose the stories we tell about the big things like our childhood and the little things like the grocery store. And in every situation, there are things that are easier and harder, that work or don't work. But we can choose to focus on those aspects that make sense and feel better to us.For any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they all make sense in the context of the activity, the situation, the people involved, and they can all truthfully tell the story. But now, we get to choose which one resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward. That's the power of story. PAM: Right. Especially in more challenging situations, it's so valuable to take a moment to not just jump in with the first story that comes to mind, which is usually fear-based. And it's usually the worst one, the worst interpretation of things. And if we just stick with that one, we can get tunnel vision and start spiraling downward in our fears. We can get really stuck there if we only see this one worst interpretation of the situation in front.So, instead, take that moment to come up with a few more stories that align with the situation. If we don't take the time to consider other stories, we're not really making a meaningful choice moving forward, are we? You can't choose between one thing. And choosing more positive stories, ones that feel better to us, isn't about avoiding the truth, because the different stories all incorporate the facts. But for me, choosing the more positive story is really a form of self-care.Instead of telling myself over and over the versions that make me feel bad, that weigh me down, that pull me into that tunnel vision, I can tell myself the versions of the story that both make sense and feel better. Because from there, I'm in a more open and curious and receptive mindset, a place where I can now see more opportunities. I can be more creative in choosing my next step and my next moment is truly better. And I find myself then starting to spiral upwards, moving through it, rather than spiraling down and crashing and just feeling crushed.ANNA: And getting stuck! So, my oldest daughter and I talked about this so many times over the years, because she is a master storyteller. And, I mean, it's a gift. It is a gift that she has and it is amazing. But sometimes, it gets the better of her, because sometimes she can spin this really intricate story about someone else or about a situation, and it ends up making her feel terrible. But in the end, it's just a story. We're making it up in our heads.And I think once I realized that, I decided, if I'm going to make up a story, I'm going to make up a story that feels good, one that helps me feel connected, that helps me move forward as the person I want to be, which is exactly what you're talking about.So, I want to examine if my story spirals me into a place of being stuck, or if my story is lifting me. I may not understand all the pieces, but I can feel okay about the situation if I look at it this way, and that helps me move forward as the person I want to be. And like we've talked about before, there are situations sometimes where I can get some clarifying information so that I can get a more accurate picture, because maybe there's someone else involved and I can stop putting words in their mouth and actually figure it out.But other times, like you said, it really isn't even possible. When it's not possible, I just always want to choose the story that feels better, because it's just as likely to be true as the one that doesn't. And so, I'm just wasting the time in this moment feeling bad about something when I really don't even know the full story. And so, that's why I love that you tied it into self-care, because that's exactly what it is. It really is just this intentional choice to look at what's in front of me and find a story that feels good.And again, it's not about pushing the other things aside. It's not about pretending that things didn't happen or changing the story. It's just intentionally using language that makes me feel good about what's happening around me. So, for me, if it's a particularly challenging or difficult situation, it's not about pretending that the difficult situation didn't happen, but I look for, how have I moved through it? Look at the amazing support I've received from the people around me. Look at how loved I am because they've helped me through this situation. Look at what I've learned about myself from it.Whatever the situation, I can always find a way to frame it to use what can be a challenging situation to make myself feel better and to move forward from there. And so, that's also an empowerment piece, knowing that I can turn these situations that can completely derail me into situations that just boost me forward and allow me to be around the people that I love and to connect with the people that lift me up.PAM: Yes. And another layer that I think would be helpful for people to peel back, and I am still peeling this layer back, but, why is our tendency to take on that weight? Why does it feel like the more positive spin or the silver lining is it cheat? It really is not. And we can do that work to peel back those layers and to realize that these are all stories, they are all versions of the truth. They could absolutely all be true.ANNA: And I think this part is related to the stories handed to us by society. Things like, life is suffering. Only hard work pays off. Relationships are hard. And so, when you find this cheat, you're like, "Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn't have to be this hard. Maybe I can be enjoying it," but then you might try to stop yourself. Like, "What? But we've been told that forever!"But no, set that aside, because we don't have to make situations more difficult. There's going to be plenty of things in life to work through, but when you can find joy, when you can switch that focus, see the light, find the gifts in the situation, life is just so much more enjoyable. But we do have to shed some of those stories from society, some of those stories from even other people in our lives, in order to create what feels good for us.PAM: Yeah, I love that. I mean, "Life is hard." Don't we hear that all the time? But then, if we tell a different story, the reaction can often be like, "Well, you're a Pollyanna. You're not seeing the truth." Another story. Right? It is just so useful to work through all of that.Now, you and I have both heard, "You guys are always so positive," and people think it's weird at first, which is okay, because it's part of the process of peeling back those layers and understanding that our stories are ours to tell and there's more than one way to tell the story. We don't always have to take the negative, life-is-hard bent on it. ANNA: Right. And the reason I'm telling the story is for me. It's not to put on a show or make anything look different for somebody else from the outside. It's because it helps me be the person I want to be.It helps me in my relationships. I remember one time somebody said to me, "I get it now. I get that you're not just a Pollyanna about life. It's that it helps you have these relationships. It helps you move through these situations." And I'm like, "Yes, that's absolutely it." I'm not thinking about anybody else's reaction to me choosing joy or finding light in a moment, because that's my internal work.Now, I'm understanding that it can come across that way as people are listening to it, but I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no. This is just a tool." It's a tool that helps me connect with people. It helps me move through my days in a way that feels better to me. And it's just a choice. And I think if somebody wants to play around with it, they can see how it feels for them, too.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And I find it helps me be more creative. It helps me come up with more possibilities. And that's the thing. You can try it out for a while and you see how it goes. And I do suspect you'll start to see things that wouldn't have happened in the other mindset.ANNA: Yeah, it's really true. And I do think it's so interesting and we definitely get feedback about that.I mean, I definitely get that. "You're always looking on the bright side!" And I'm like, I feel all the things, but it's just, again, those stories we create, it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we see all the things around us.So, let's talk about some questions you might want to ponder for this week as you explore the idea of stories. First, what story are you holding onto about yourself, your partner, and your family? And that's a lot. So, that one may take a few minutes, because we have stories that have been handed us from childhood and on. So, there's a lot of stories there.Where are the stories coming from, from your parents during childhood, from outside voices of society, somewhere else? Identifying where, I think, is so key to realizing and taking your power back there, to realize, I don't need to own their story. That story's not about me at all.And so, do you see the story in your self-talk and how else might you tell that story? Self-talk again, it's kind of this bugaboo that we're unsure about. How do we change it? But I think the first step, don't you think, is just identifying it, just recognizing it as a story.PAM: Yes. Recognizing it as a story and, like in the previous question, where did that story come from? Is it really my story or is it something that I've absorbed over the years? It's someone else's view that I've adopted because they can really feel like that's our story, That's our self-talk, because we should be more productive, we should be efficient. "I should be able to do this quickly," or, "I shouldn't be so sensitive." There are just so many stories that we've absorbed over time that are really somebody else's view. And to check in and start asking ourselves and see, well, does that make sense to me? Do I feel sensitive all the time? What's wrong with being sensitive? There are just so many questions and layers do with that.ANNA: And you know I love, who would I be without that story? So, feel that. Who would I be without telling that story about I'm so sensitive or I can't get anything done whatever the thing is that people have handed to us. So, yeah, so interesting.And finally, how does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own story? And so, I think it, I think that may take a minute, because it's just realizing, Okay, do I get to write it? Because I think, again, some people think it's a cheat. But it's like, no, you really do. You really get to pick the things that you like and craft that as your own personal story, even when there's tragedy, even when there are bad things that have happened. There are things to look at that we can just say, yeah, but this is who I want to be and this is how I went through those tough times, and this is what was surrounding me during that. And so, that we can hold onto that part of the story as well.PAM: Yeah, and I think that's one of the big things that I want to share with people is that these are true moments. This isn't stuff that we're making up. We're not saying, ignore all this hard stuff that's going on around you.It's, as you said, a tool that can be helpful in moving through those seasons, moving through those emergency moments, all those pieces. For me, it is so incredibly helpful for me to move out of that fight or flight tunnel, which can be super helpful in the moment. But we get stuck there so easily. This is a tool that really helps me move through that. I just find it's become such a useful tool, because I know I'm more creative on the other side. I move through things with more grace and just more compassion and kindness for other people that are involved when I can help myself with this tool move beyond that tunnel vision and the that whole fight flight emergency response when things go wrong. That's helped me.ANNA: It will be fun to see what people bring up about stories. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. So, take care. Bye-bye.PAM: Bye, everyone.

In this podcast, Anna is with Jamie Blanco. Jamie Blanco is an award-winning news producer, actor, and podcast host who spent years realizing her father's dream of completing his book of hope for cancer patients.  Her Father Jimmy Blanco fought the world's deadliest brain cancer without mainstream medicine. Using a holistic mind, body, soul approach he lived eight incredible years when doctors had only given him three months to live.  Today Jamie has completed the book her father began and packed it with current research and powerful interviews with experts in many fields with the goal of bringing hope to the hopeless.    They also talked about:  04:12 How Jamie's father forged his own path for longevity 16:50 The importance of support structure  19:13 The hurdles Jamie encountered while finishing the book  26:41 What does freedom mean to Jamie?   Quotes:   “You have to sort of find your tribe. Positive supporters and people who are going to nourish that and help you, encourage you, but also give you their expertise. And then keep you a lot and keep you going. The support from the right people is important.” -Anna   “It's about giving yourself the power and the permission to get in a more positive space and to surround yourself with better people. And it doesn't even always have to come from people. It's things too.” -Jamie    “The end of our lives is not a fun experience all of the time, and our bodies are made to not be here forever, and that's okay. But it's about finding those tools with coping with that. And seeing them for what they are, instead of letting yourself be pulled down” -Jamie   “No one has the right to tell you to go home and die. You are your own best self-advocate. Miracles are real, even if they are messy sometimes, and it's about fighting for yourself and loving yourself and ultimately finding peace within yourself too. Because I think that this life is meant for learning and loving and it's finite. So let's do the best that we can with it.” -Jamie   “It's a leap, but you've gotta have that courage. You've gotta free yourself from fear because there's so much that can be accomplished when you free yourself from fear.” -Jamie   “Fear stands for forgetting everything and running or facing everything and rising.” -Anna   “Freeing myself from that fear that was limiting me is what I think allows people to connect with each other. Imagine if we weren't afraid of each other; Imagine the connections we would make; Imagine how peaceful the world would be if we didn't just live dictated by fear.” -Jamie   Check out Jamie Blanco's social media accounts:  https://www.hopeforthehopelessbook.com/  https://www.facebook.com/hopeforthehopelessbook  https://www.instagram.com/hopeforthehopelessbook/    Check out Jamie Blanco's book: https://linktr.ee/hopeforthehopelessbook  www.hopeforthehopelessbook.com  www.hopeforthehopelessbook.com/resources    Join Jamie's virtual book signing on January 27th, 12pm (EST) on Instagram LIVE.   Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET THIS FREE EBOOK: Manifesting with Visualisation: http://bit.ly/3q46nDr 5 Steps To Make More Money From Home by Selling Professionally On Amazon: https://bit.ly/3A6uCq1   Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/3gvJO6l Amazon 101 Academy-Self Study: https://bit.ly/3n53DUS Make Sh*t Happen Membership: https://bit.ly/37MtCdg   Join Tribe My Facebook Group Your Freedom Project https://www.facebook.com/groups/YourFreedomProject2020/    Visit My Website Here: https://theannadavidson.com/   You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - @theannadavidson Facebook - Anna Davidson YouTube - @theannadavidson

This week, we're talking about connection!How connected we're feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it's time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments. Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: 'Is what I'm about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?' We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. And join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap?How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly? Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them?What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you'd like to?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today's episode, we are going to talk about connection.So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours.So, for me, how connected I'm feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I'm feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together.But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It's not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don't enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other's company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. "Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When's it time to turn back?"So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. "Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!" Or, "to play that game, yay!" etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference.And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what's up in each other's days, sharing what we've been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn't need to be anything big, doesn't need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other.So, what does connection look like for you, Anna?ANNA: You know I'm excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I'm about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I'm honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here's the thing. So, I'm choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and compassionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones.Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do.But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier.The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we're on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we're able to approach problems and meeting each other's needs as a puzzle that we're solving together. We're on the same side.We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We're in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we're tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive.PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we're on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals.For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren't that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone's needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too.ANNA: So much better.PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that's okay. It is not a failure. We don't need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense.In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren't interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that's important to them? Maybe they're stressed about something that's going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn't need to be a rejection of us. It's like, oh, there's other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to remember, no, it doesn't need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that's really the case. They're not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad.None of that.ANNA: It's not about us at all usually.PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn't end up enjoying the activity and we're the one who's distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn't turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again.We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we're talking about relationships, there's so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we're tired, we're different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships.And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments.If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we're the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we're the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to join them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way.And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There's a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more?ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don't always look straight forward like, "Hey, I want to feel closer to you now." Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. "Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I'm asking for?" Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they're trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don't feel heard.Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we're putting out is love is being received as such.But with the bids, like you said, it's so interesting, because we'll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person's telling us a story from work and we're actually still in our head thinking, "We're not doing relationship things," or we're not doing the thing the way it looks in our head.But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I'm seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I'm acknowledging that and I'm responding.And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn't enough, or the time is not right, or we're tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I'm able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can't dive in fully to maybe what they're needing for the, in that moment, it's so much better than brushing it off.PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, "Ah, that's wonderful. I love that. I can't wait to join you, or I can't wait to hear that story. I'm just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I've had a nap? Or I'm just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes," to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment.And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we've been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it's super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn't count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we're building.It doesn't mean we don't do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn't on hold between the bigger things.ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we're going to keep repeating, it's that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that's what we're pinning our hopes on, that's not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available.PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you're already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you're already connected, instead of thinking-ANNA: We're going to get it there!PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let's reconnect, finally.ANNA: Right. And isn't that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we're going to have this amazing date, or we're going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven't been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we're pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short.So, yeah, I think that's super interesting to watch for and think about.PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they're exploring connections, alongside all the ones we've already talked about.So, what does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn't always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect.How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we're putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, "Oh, let's sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together," and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? "Oh, I didn't know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn't know that thing went strange at work today, and you're really worried about that," because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more.And then, again, let's think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don't always look perfect. As in, "Let's do this together!" It can be, "Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it." That is a bid for connection. That is some support another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they're trying to do, and they come to you. That's a bid for connection, for some support in what they are looking to do. Maybe it's the infamous, "I'm bored," you know? They're just looking to chat with somebody for a while.There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection.ANNA: Absolutely.PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.

On this week's episode, we're talking about priorities.We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities that feel good to us, it becomes easier to make day-to-day choices that align with what is important to us.We talk about how our relationships fit into our priorities (and—spoiler alert—they're at the top of our lists!) and how prioritizing connection has become a focus for both of us as we tuned out the external noise and tuned into how we want to show up in the world.We hope you enjoy this episode and take the time to dive into the episode questions. We look forward to hearing your reflections on Instagram or YouTube!Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts? Your inner voice?What priorities make sense to you? Why?Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities?Are your day to day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make?Do any of your priorities depend on other people's actions and choices? If so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so excited you found us and look forward to exploring our relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, on today's episode, we're going to talk about priorities. And I love this as a starting place for the podcast, because it's such an interesting topic to examine.Priorities are so individual, and yet, so often, we're handed a set of priorities from society. We're handed definitions of success and where and how we should be spending our time.And there are these heavy guardrails of judgment that we have to move through if we choose to deviate from these expected paths.So, it can be really interesting, I've found, to dig into those outside voices, that judgment. What's behind it? What purpose does it serve? And is it helping me get in touch with who I am and who I want to be in the world?I think about the studies that they do when people are on their deathbed and they're asked, is there anything that you would change? And consistently, they answer that they wished they had prioritized their relationships over achievements or the next promotion.For me personally, I came to that realization for myself after our first child had a life-threatening after birth experience. Almost losing her really woke me up to the path I was on and to look at how I wanted to spend my time. And the answer for me was doing things I love with the people that I love. And that's how I want to spend this time that I'm given. And understanding that has just been a huge guide for me ever since.So, I'm curious, Pam, what's it been like for you?PAM: Well, it was having children that sparked my journey, as well. I found that those first few years were just filled with questions like who I wanted to be as a person and parent. And, having internalized so many of society's goals and stories growing up, it took me a while, quite a while, to realize just how much choice I actually had.I didn't need to just dutifully take on the path and the priorities that were handed to me. I could figure out what I value and make those things a priority in my. And then, as I continued to ask more questions, I came to realize what would always be in my life, and it was my relationships. Jobs, hobbies, areas of interest, while definitely being integral parts of who I am, those would come and go over the years. They had been coming and going over the years. But my relationships with my family would always be in my life. They were and are a fundamental part of just my being in the world.And so, since that aha moment, I have chosen to prioritize my relationships. And rather surprisingly, because you think I'm focusing on something, so I'm closing things down to this one thing, but I found that my life has been so much richer for it.ANNA: Oh, my gosh. So much richer. I feel like when we have that foundation of strong, connected relationships, it's just this really wonderful place from which we can explore the world and learn about ourselves. Because I think that might have been the most surprising piece for me, that as I focused on being in relationship with others, I learned so much about myself. It's not always easy, but I'm grateful for it.And so, as I'm thinking about this, we both got to this place where we didn't want to be taking these priorities that were being handed to us. The next bit for me was realizing that others don't want me to define their priorities either.So, when we think about our partners or kids, it was really helpful to think, am I judging how they spend their time, the choices that they're making? Because that judgment comes between us. We don't learn why they're making the choices they're making. We miss the opportunity to really connect with them and who they are. It's got this cloud of expectation and you'll have some people that will buck against that expectation in really dramatic fashion. And then you'll have others that really try to meet it, even if it's not in alignment for them. But, either way, the connection is harmed and can be lost together.So, I try not to be the outside voice that someone needs to shut out, but instead be someone who celebrates and just unconditionally supports the people in my life.PAM: Absolutely. That was definitely yet another layer to peel back for me, realizing how valuable it was for me to contemplate and choose my priorities, but that didn't mean my priorities were the best priorities for anyone else. It makes so much sense to me why my priorities are these and in this order, but no, everyone is a different person. And I remember the huge shift in my relationship with my spouse when I stopped trying to convince him that my priorities should be his priorities as well, which had looked like me trying to tell him what to do and when. And I was definitely nice about it. I wasn't trying to bully him or anything, but as I thought about it, I was trying to convince him that I was right and vice versa. That's where our conversations went. They were often about convincing each other that our priorities and choices were more right than the other person's. There was definitely a winner and a loser.But once I began to share my priorities without trying to convince him to adopt them, oh, my gosh. There was space for him to start sharing his without me judging them. Each of us was more able to be ourselves. We could just share and see how things landed. And then, that in turn helped us learn more about each other as we'd chat about the things that are important to us and why. And recognizing that his priorities are as important to him as mine are to me. ANNA: It's so true. I don't know. We get stuck in our head, right? We get stuck in our head thinking everybody's seeing things the same way. And so, yeah, I just love that next layer.And I think then, I want to talk about, too, as we hone in on these priorities, it's such a helpful lens to look at the day to day moments. So, in each moment, we have this opportunity to make choices. And understanding my priorities and then keeping them front of mind as I made choices throughout the day was critical to me, actually honoring them as priorities, versus just giving lip service to, "My relationships are important," or whatever the thing might be.So, what that would look like for me, it might be stopping what I'm doing to hear my child excitedly tell me about their game. It's taking a walk after dinner with David to reconnect, because we've had some time apart that day. Because, truthfully, I could curl up with a book and get some work done at the computer, but I do want to tend to that relationship, that priority first. And what I found is that that connection serves us both as we move through the evening and through the subsequent days.And another really big one for me, this was so huge, was learning to say no to outside requests that took me away from the people that I loved. And here's the thing. Sometimes there are easy yeses and they feed me and they feel great and they feel great to those around me. But other times, what I noticed is that I was saying yes without really thinking about how it would impact me, my energy, what I would have left to give my family, the time it might take away from spending time with the important people in my life, all of those things.I'm just seeing the person in front of me with the ask and saying, "Okay, I'll help," without really checking in. And using that lens really helped me realize that the time with them was what I wanted to prioritize, and so, I really needed to align my actions with that. So, that becomes the work, aligning our actions with what matters most to us.PAM: Exactly. Yet another huge layer is, okay, I've got these priorities. It's not sticking them on a post-it note and sticking them somewhere where I'll see them. It's, how do these weave into my days, my actual days? What do they look like in action?And I wanted to mention, it is not about trying to guilt ourselves into making choices that align with our priorities. If we find ourselves doing that regularly, I think that might be a great clue just to revisit our priorities. Apparently, the things that I want to do in my day don't align with what I thought my priorities were.ANNA: That's so interesting.PAM: So, just revisit them. What you really choose to do in the moment, you want to do in the moment, those outer voices, right? Am I doing it, because I think I should? Or is this something that feels good, that I want to choose, that I choose to do, that I want to do? And you want the things that you choose to do to align with your priorities, as well. They weave together so much.That said, though, it doesn't mean that the choices are always easy. Like you were talking about, they aren't often between a good thing and a bad thing, making the choice easy like, "Oh yeah, between this and this? No, no. This is definitely it." Often, it's between two or three lovely things, but that's where knowing our priorities can be so helpful.So, using your example, which I love, maybe after dinner I could take a walk with Rocco to reconnect, or I could clean up the kitchen a bit, maybe because it feels nice to me to walk into a tidy kitchen, or I could relax and read a bit. When I think about those choices, the first thing I might realize is that, those aren't actually either/or things, right? I could do them all over the course of the evening. And taking a moment to consider my priorities helps me put them in an order that aligns with them.So, maybe I have also learned that once I sit down to relax and read or watch a show, I often feel too tired for a walk after. So, there are a couple of solid reasons to tend to the relationship first for me. So, maybe our walk turns into us tidying the kitchen together as we finish up our conversation. And then we can each go to our own thing feeling refreshed and connected.There are so many ways that things can unfold. And keeping our priorities in mind helps us choose the path that feels more fulfilling to us.ANNA: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I think that's such a great point about, if you're feeling a rub during your day about, I want to do this, but it's not aligning with these priorities I've set out, if you're seeing that as a to-do list or a checklist and it's not feeling good, woo, stop! Just stop right there. And revisit and go, "Wait a minute, are my priorities really lining up with who I want to be right now in this moment?"And the thing is, they can change. Our priorities can change and they will as we go through different seasons of our lives, as we, grow and change and learn more things about ourselves. So, just looking for those little rub spots, I think, is important.PAM: Speaking of those rubs, sometimes there are emergencies. There are urgent things in life that come up and I may absolutely choose to do those things. And I may choose to step far out of my comfort zone and do some things, but it's the act of recognizing, oh yeah, this needs my attention immediately, very, very soon. I am going to do that. Priorities, again, it's not a rule.ANNA: No. Or a checklist.PAM: Choice is right there. But priorities, there's something that can help us make choices that, again, they feel fulfilling. They feel right. They feel good to us. They help us when we come to a point where there are various possibilities for the next moment.So, I just think they are so valuable for us to recognize, because sometimes, too, our priorities may look quite mundane. Like relationships. "I see these people every day! Of course I'm in relationship with them. They live down the hall, they sleep down the hall." So, it can feel like, why is it even worth making that a priority? But that's the fun part. That's why it's so valuable to think about it, to think about the kind of person that I want to be, the kind of parent I want to be, the kind of partner I want to be. And when we're thinking about it, we've got it top of mind as we go through our day. As things come up, as things unfold in front of us, we can make the choices that feel better for us, so that at the end of the day, it often feels just more fulfilling really.ANNA: Right. And grounded, for me, because again, I think it's interesting. I think they inform each other. The choice informs the priority. The priorities inform the choice. And so, just that awareness, like you said, top of mind, bringing that awareness, that can really help us. It's a grounded feeling of like, I'm living the life that I want to live. I am being the person that I want to be and those are the things that I like to check in with myself about periodically. So, yeah, I love that.Okay, so, we are going to leave you with some questions to ponder this week.The first one is, how can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts, your inner voice? And so, this will be a big one, just thinking about, where are those voices coming from? What does it sound like for you? What does your voice sound like in contrast? So, just give a little time to sit with that and how you can shut those noises out.The next one is, what priorities make sense to you and why? Because, like we said, it's going to be different. There's going to be seasons. There's going to be things that shift around based on where you are in your life and what's happening.But, "Do they make sense to you?" is going give you a big clue as to, "Are they coming from outside voices versus, is it something that's really bubbling up from inside of you? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? And I think it's just, again, it's the mundane in some ways, like Pam was saying. And so, maybe sometimes relationships fall off as we're thinking, "Oh, we've got this career thing we want to do," or whatever, which are all wonderful things. There's no good or bad here about what you're pursuing or doing, but it's just that check in. Where are they falling and is that where I want them? So, I think that's just important to look at.Next one is, are your day-to-day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? And that's what we're talking about, is you're looking at the different choices you're making throughout the day. Does it line up with your priorities? And again, keep in mind that it could be that the priorities need to change, or maybe you want to check in about your priorities as you're making your choices. So, those, again, work together.Do any of your priorities depend on other people's actions and choices? And, if so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? And this goes back to what we were saying about nobody else wanting us to put our priorities on them. It's that same kind of thing, because it's like, if we are expecting someone else to move along with our priorities, it's pretty much a recipe for upset or disconnection, because they're going to have their own path there. So, really tuning into, are my priorities in alignment with me and things that I can control?And, for me, what that looks like a lot of times is, am I being the person I want to be? So, my priority may be about a relationship that does involve somebody else, but what I control is how I show up for the relationship.PAM: Exactly. Yeah. We don't have control of how other people show up, but we can also be a wonderful model, as in, this is how we choose.ANNA: Absolutely. So, check out the show notes for things we've mentioned in the episode, the episode transcript, and a link to download the PDF of today's questions. We'd love to hear what you discover. You can share your thoughts on a comment on the website or our episode post on Instagram @LivingJoyfullyPodcast. You'll find that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here with us, and we'll see you next time.PAM: Bye.

Anna Spearman is the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Chad talks with Anna about founding and growing the company, immediately after graduating college, during a pandemic, reputation building, and facing skepticism around her lack of track record in recruiting, and finding and providing talent for clients as a white-glove service. Techie Staffing (https://techiestaffing.com/) Follow Techie Staffing on Twitter (https://twitter.com/StaffingTechie), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/techiestaffing), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/techiestaffing/) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/techie-staffing/). Follow Anna on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/annaspearman/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Anna Spearman, the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Anna, thanks so much for joining me. ANNA: Thank you so much for inviting me, Chad. CHAD: In theory, at the surface level, Techie Staffing is probably fairly straightforward in terms of what you do. But I'm curious how you got started. ANNA: Yes, of course. So I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's been two years. Two years ago, I was, during that time, attending the University of Virginia, where I was majoring in computer science with a minor in entrepreneurship. And in the spring of 2020, I was planning on coming back home to...I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was planning to come back home for spring break. And I was finishing out my second semester of senior year. So I was planning my [chuckles] victory lap of going back home, taking a little bit of a rest time, and then coming back to UVA to finish my degree, graduate, and move on to a new job in Los Angeles. But unfortunately, as my plane was landing in Los Angeles, we kept hearing about COVID. And so the pandemic hit in the middle of my spring break. And during that time, I had to finish my second semester of senior year remote. It was very stressful, but when I finished the degree, I was so fulfilled. But unfortunately, there was a rapid dwindling of entry-level tech and product roles. I initially either wanted to be a software engineer or a product manager or be a software engineer that transitioned into a technical product manager. But unfortunately, once the pandemic hit, companies weren't willing to ramp up entry-level talent. Companies didn't really know what was going to happen in the future, and everybody was remote. So it was just a really confusing time. But while I was searching through different job boards trying to find new opportunities, especially entry-level opportunities, I found just a wealth of senior tech jobs, specifically with companies that were thriving due to the pandemic. During that time, companies like Peloton, Discord, Zoom, they were all soaring due to the pandemic. So I had heard about contingent recruiting in the past. My biggest dream for a new opportunity for myself graduating out of college was just to learn something new every day because I've always had a very much an interdisciplinary background. I've never been able to stay in one area. I've always loved to try different things. So with a little bit of a background recruiting at a past summer internship as well as wanting to utilize my entrepreneurship minor...I'm actually a fourth-generation woman entrepreneur. So definitely, growing up, creating my own business was my dream. So really, that was my main goal. I thought I was going to transition from a current role into entrepreneurship, but I had my back against the wall. So I just thought, why not start now? So I created Techie Staffing, a technology staffing agency specializing in direct hire placements nationwide. I basically had my virtual graduation; then I took a week. And then, I got started creating the website, establishing the business paperwork, as well as developing strategic partnerships with senior technical recruiters that had full candidate pipelines to fill incoming job requisitions. And I basically started off with nothing. I had no contacts, no network, just nothing at all. And I was really starting just fresh. So I really had to really spend a lot of time networking and developing relationships as well as just learning and mastering full lifecycle recruiting, especially with engineering since there's such a supply and demand issue for software engineers. So you're just consistently following up and contacting people that could potentially be interested in your companies. But it really blew up. As I was establishing everything in 2020 from summer to the end of 2020, it was 2021 when it really blew up where I contacted this founder during the time they had raised a Series B 50 million, which was amazing, and they were going through a hiring sprint. So we got connected fairly quickly. And with just great team synergy, we were actually able to place five people in one month, and it was frontend, backend, and full-stack developers. So that really jump-started Techie Staffing. And then after that, we worked with...we're now working with Fortune 500 companies as well as high-growth startups and really building a diversified portfolio, and we're also a certified woman-owned business which I'm so proud of because there aren't really a lot of women or even just women of color that are founders. So I was really happy to get that certification, really proud of that as well. I always say all the time to everybody it's super stressful, but it's so rewarding at the same time. And I do believe that it's honestly, you know, I know the pandemic has been super hard on people. And it's been such a change and such a shift. But there is still a part of me that is so grateful for making that pivot because I really found something that I feel like I really enjoy doing every day. CHAD: That's great. I really commend you on everything you've done so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to do in the future. You now have grown where you're multiple people on your team. ANNA: Yeah, so we actually hired two new people fairly recently. I did have one direct hire recruiter working with me. So now it's officially a team of four. I did develop the strategic part. I do still have some strategic partnerships as well because on that part, at first, I was partnering with recruiters that were independent, so who were a little bit more entrepreneurial so that we could split the placement fee. But it's still better to just have full-time employees. I'm so excited to have two new additional hires, and it's still new for me. So I'm really looking forward to growing together in terms of growing Techie Staffing and growing into being a full life cycle recruiter because it wasn't that long ago when I was in that same exact spot. And it's so amazing. It still blows my mind to this day how two years ago, thinking about interviewing candidates or selling to clients, and now what I've evolved in. It's been absolutely amazing. So I'm so happy to see their journey and seeing them transition into being technical recruiters and also making a pivot in their career as well, which that's still blowing my mind a little bit. I'm sure you know founding thoughtbot and really building that from the ground up. So it's just amazing seeing that infrastructure. It just really brings a brighter future as well. CHAD: So what kind of people do you look for when you're looking to add to your team? Are you bringing on people who have experience with recruiting? Or are you bringing on people who are transitioning into it? ANNA: I would say for Q1 and Q2 of 2022 and even a little bit beforehand, since there was a surge in demand for everything and tech companies were just scaling like crazy, there was very much a competitive market for recruiters, specifically technical recruiters. Because that's what companies were really looking for to scale their engineering and product teams. So it was very, very competitive to recruit for a technical recruiter. So now you see agencies now who are hiring people who can have the DNA for a technical recruiter but not necessarily have direct experience, which I think can be really, really cool. Because like I said, like two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing, and now I feel very much confident in the full life cycle. So I think that's really cool to have people be able to pivot into a really cool industry where you're really learning something new every day, and you're speaking to really interesting people. We specialize in senior up until C-suite, so yeah, learning from people who are senior all the way up to Director, VP. So it's really interesting. So when I was approaching hiring, I really wanted to find someone who had that DNA that can potentially transition to being a technical recruiter. And that DNA would be, you know, it doesn't have to be personality but just really interacting with engineers, just maybe being a self-starter. I would say great communication, and lastly, I would say just really hungry. Yes, I would say hungry. Because if you're really hungry and you're really willing to learn and be open, so openness as well, then you can really understand the rules or just the lifecycle and the process of being a recruiter, and then you can change people's lives. I actually had one...It was about a year ago, I was working with a Fortune 500 company, and I recruited this guy, and I led him through the process. And it was about maybe a month later when he told me I had basically changed his life. Him and his family were now moving to Atlanta, and it was a new role, and it was just a fresh start. And he was just telling me how appreciative he was of me, and so that really hit home. So I think for those two new hires, I'm so excited to have them get super engaged and be able to change other people's lives as well under the Techie Staffing name, of course. CHAD: You mentioned early on that you're contingent recruiting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you get paid when you place somebody, when someone gets hired from the company that hires them. ANNA: Yes. CHAD: But then you also mentioned that these people who you're bringing onto your team are full-time. So how does the compensation structure typically work for them? ANNA: Oh, compensation, we have them on salary, but they do have commission. So we wanted to really give; like I said, I want us to grow together. So I do provide commission for each placement they'll place just to really provide incentive. Like I said, it's so early. I want us to think of each other just as teammates and a team because we're all building towards the same goal. So just really wanted to provide incentives where they're really feeling like they're almost owning it full life cycle as well. Because like I said, it's early on, and these can be really strong pillars in the future. So there is salary, but there's also that commission as well to just really provide that incentive. And I know for me personally, incentive can be awesome, so definitely trying to provide that motivation and having them really feel like they're an integral part. CHAD: What's the harder part of your business? Or are they equally hard, finding new clients versus finding people who want to work with you on the candidate side? ANNA: On the business development side, I would say it was harder perhaps in the beginning because I just so was starting with nothing, really. I had just graduated from college. And a lot of agency owners they previously have maybe worked at a really cool tech startup, or maybe they've been working on their agencies for the past 5 or 10 years. They have previous years of experience, but I didn't have that. So I had to convey another method of just really networking, really meeting people, and just really knowing my stuff and having a handle on it. I know maybe a lot of people say, like, just fake it until you make it because then once you make it, and then you get that experience, then you can transfer that experience to new experiences as well. So at first, it was really just building myself up and building the Techie Staffing brand so that we could acquire those clients. In terms of the candidate side, I would say Techie Staffing, and one of the things and part of our brand that we love to portray is that we are the agency that has the companies with the best employer branding. Because like I said, with the supply and demand issue for the software engineers, it is so competitive to attract them to new opportunities. There are just so many companies that are contacting them multiple times a day. So there has to be at least a little bit of a shine or a little bit of a differentiator for companies that you're recruiting for. So we actually specialize in companies that are Series B and above that do have that established employer branding where engineers are really interested in joining that company, so that's just the thing. It's like really having companies that have strong employer branding and being able to follow up. Follow-ups are really, really important when it comes to engaging engineers because, like I said, it's just a super competitive market and just trying to provide them a great white-glove experience. There are some agencies that fall a little bit too close to the client-side where the client is always right. And there are some that fall too much to the candidate side where the candidate is right, but we really want to be a balanced middleman where we're just trying to find the compromise and find the best solution for everybody. So that's the real important part of it of just really providing them with a great experience and showing them that we care and that we're rooting for them. Because it sometimes does surprise me when candidates can be a little...maybe this is a part of me being new. But that's kind of an advantage, too, because I'm still paying attention to detail. That's where my computer science major comes in. It's like constantly trying to stay in tune with candidates and what they need, so just trying to provide a great experience in general. And I'm sure you feel that way with your clients. You're a consultancy as well where you're trying to be B2B and contact these different companies. So how do you conduct business development and really differentiate yourself? CHAD: We focused a lot on reputation building, so blogging, creating open source so that we don't need, fortunately, to cold contact people. And when we do, we're fortunate enough that they might already know about us. And so it's an easier conversation to have because they may already be reading our blog, or they may already be using some of our open source in their product. And so it becomes an easier conversation to have. But the majority of our clients actually come to us when they have a need because we're fortunate enough to have worked to be at the top of the list. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And I'm still doing that, just reputation building. With one of our Fortune 500, we're doing incredibly well with them to the point where we're filling their pipelines, and we have majority of our candidates in their pipeline. So that's what we're really working on right now is just consistently...and I know like with any business, you have to just constantly build that reputation. So I especially just try to provide a great experience for candidates because they can also be hiring managers as well, so just really providing that white-glove experience. And also, a cool differentiator we always like to showcase is like, I'm a computer science major. And actually, the two people that I just hired have a tech background. So it's not like tech is entirely foreign to us. We've engaged with programming languages. We've coded projects. So we do have some form of understanding when it comes to certain technologies or certain projects that certain engineers are working on. And that's what really gets me excited to speak with engineers because it's so cool and interesting hearing about them working on their projects and working on projects that directly affect me and the products that I'm interacting with. So it's so cool to hear about their...I can understand a bit. And so that's another thing we have with Techie Staffing is really finding people who have a bit of a tech background so at least they have a little bit of knowledge or an understanding of what projects and can be able to really share and convey that to clients that are looking for this talent. CHAD: You mentioned it's a really competitive market now. And as a company who probably has multiple clients, how do you minimize or how do you deal with the potential competition for the limited supply among your own clients? ANNA: Among my own clients, I will say that right now we don't have...for the roles that we're working on for each client, they're not very similar or too, too similar, which is a good thing. We would like it in the future where we could have the same role, but we can understand how that can be a little tricky as well. CHAD: And how do they differ then? Are they differing by the technology experience that they're looking for or the sort of level of the role? How are they different? ANNA: It could be technology, difference of the role. So, for example, for a Fortune 500 company that we're working with, we'll work more with UX, data science, data science roles, as well as...so UX, data science. And then for high-growth startups, mostly with them, they're really looking for back-end engineers, but overall just engineering so frontend, backend, DevOps. We are working potentially to do engineering or more engineering-heavy for our Fortune 500 companies. We have recently been working on a VP of engineering. So for Fortune 500 for now, we've been working more with leadership roles especially, and for high-growth, it's been more engineering IC. But we would like to transition that in the future to have it kind of...or have roles that maybe some candidates could go to this company, and some candidates can go to that startup. And then another differentiator could be or what makes our clientele different from each other is for high-growth startups, especially for engineering ICs, they're really looking for candidates that come from high-growth startups who just understand the current company where they are, and how they're scaling during that period of time around that series B and series C. That's the time to really scale. And Fortune 500 companies they can be open to startups, but for the most part, especially sometimes for leaders who need to have a certain amount of direct reports, they're more looking for people from larger companies. So that would be one way to kind of separate it and so we're not having candidates almost be where they have to compete with candidates within our own company. Because with the difference in the leveling of companies, there's just a difference in what kind of candidates that they're looking for. Mid-Roll Ad: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: url tbot.io/devops CHAD: When I was first starting thoughtbot, I really felt like I needed to take every client that we could get because we were just starting out. We needed to make money. We needed to build a reputation. And so, I felt like we needed to say yes to every client. Over the years, I learned that that was actually watering us down, and it made us less successful. And the more we were clear about who we were, and what we did, and what clients we were best for, the more successful we were. Have you gotten to the point where you needed to turn down clients? ANNA: Because I do such targeted biz dev, we will contact companies that we personally want to work with. But I will say in the beginning, there were some companies that were a lot smaller that, just like you said, you just felt the need to want to rack up a client list. And you just are ready to go and wanting to work with someone. It really motivated me to really take a look and really go deep into the type of clients that we want. So, for example, really, really early-stage companies can have a really, really hard time hiring because, like I said, employer branding is so, so important. And so usually what they'll have is maybe like mission, but they won't really have salary. Or they won't really have the employer branding of the company of candidates either knowing about the company or being able to search the company really quickly and seeing the platform that the company is building and seeing how strong it is. So it's really, really hard to recruit for those stages. I mean, it is possible, but it's just really hard. And then at the same time for these early-stage companies, they really want to, which I totally understand, you know, when you're having your probably 8th, 9th, or 10th engineer and being on the founding team, you really want a strong engineer because that's your platform, that's your baby. You don't want anybody that, you know, it could potentially maybe cause problems, or they really want somebody there they can trust. And so it's hard, you know like I said -- CHAD: But they might not be able to afford that. [laughs] ANNA: Yes, they might either not be able to afford it, or they also cannot interview fast enough in order to just get the offer in their hands. Because I understand they really want to have them speak to the entire team and have them have an in-depth process because it's very much an important role. But these candidates and startups are moving so fast right now where I will speak to a candidate one day, and he or she or they'll probably say, "Oh, you know, I'm passively looking. I'm not really actively looking." And maybe a week and a half to two weeks later, they're like, "Oh, I actually have two offers in hand." So it goes really, really fast versus earlier stage; it can just go a little bit slower because they're just really taking the time to go more in-depth and see if this prospective candidate is the right fit, which is totally understandable. But it was just really hard for us as contingent trying to find that candidate, that perfect candidate for them as well as trying to keep candidates warm and keep them interested when some companies just have like mission. So now, in the future, I've just really, like I said, Techie Staffing, we specialize from Series B and above. And I really just make sure during business development exploratory chats that I'm really going in-depth and making sure I understand the roles that they're prioritizing their time to hire. So if they have a long, long interview process and a really, really low salary in terms of the competitive market, then I may not be as interested in that startup as opposed to another startup whose interview process timeline could be about a week and a half to two weeks. And it doesn't have to be absolutely amazingly competitive base salary but just a fairly competitive salary with a great timeline for time to hire. So that's been my way of just condensing or just being a little bit more pickier in terms of clients in the future. Were there any certain clients for you where you started working with them, and you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have," that's now caused you to be a little bit more pickier for clients in the future? CHAD: Part of it was the kind of work. So we really wanted to be writing software. But just starting out, I also had a background in sort of IT support. And so, when I was reaching out, particularly to past clients, they might say, "You built our website. Now can you help us with purchasing a computer or setting up a computer network in our office?" I felt compelled to say, "Yes," because I felt like we needed all the work we could get. But by doing that work that wasn't really what we wanted to be doing, we were not only less happy in our work, but it was taking time and attention away from the work that we really wanted to be doing. The other was values and practices, which took a little bit longer to form a real understanding of what our values were and the practices that we believe in. But now there's a pretty clear list of the kinds of companies that...what we say at thoughtbot is that we want to work on things that deserve to exist in the world. And so there's a whole bunch of industries that they might not even be actively doing harm in the world, but they are the ones that we wouldn't work in. But even if it's just not a positive contribution to the world, it's probably not going to be something that we're excited to work on. ANNA: That's been an exciting trend, actually, to speak with engineers about. I've started seeing that trend where engineers are saying, "I don't want to create anything evil," or "I just want to do good." And that's been a really awesome selling point for some teams. It definitely is a cherry on top where engineers are really looking for social impact. And the cool part is they have so many opportunities that are coming towards them that they can really pick and choose which one. So to find people who are really looking for social good and just really mission-driven products is amazing to see. And I'm really happy with the work...I'm actually working with a data science team for AI ethics. And that's been really interesting hearing some people talk about their projects and hearing about how data can really not only just strengthen bias but also can just really produce results that can harm certain groups of people, which is so interesting. And it can be something so, so small that I haven't even noticed at all, but that can lead to a big difference. CHAD: Yeah, we've had several episodes about that. ANNA: And it's amazing. And it really is just a huge difference with something so small. And as a woman of color, I'm always aware of what's going on in terms of just ethical practices or just fairness and seeing bias. But in terms of data, seeing something so so small can affect just a whole group of underrepresented people is just amazing to see. But it's also amazing that people or data scientists are now aware of it, and now they're changing it so that it no longer...at least they'll be able to alleviate that bias. CHAD: I want to ask a little bit more about that, and then I want to talk about some market trends. But if you're comfortable, I'm curious; you already mentioned you were just out of college when you were getting started. So there was skepticism around your lack of track record in recruiting. And you've mentioned that you are a woman of color. And so I think as engineers, as people in the market, we probably have this image in our head of what a typical recruiter looks like in terms of attitude, and values, and demographics. And you don't fit that mold in almost any way, basically. Is this actually a positive for you now, or is it actually still hard? Are there companies that are actively seeking out to work with you because they want that different approach? Or are you still facing that skepticism? ANNA: I'm still facing that skepticism. I actually created Techie Staffing around the time of summer 2020, where Black Lives Matter, where George Floyd happened. And it was really interesting because I was entering the corporate workplace. I went to a really wealthy private school in Los Angeles. And I went to the University of Virginia. So I survived two PWIs which means predominantly White institutions. So I thought I had not seen it all, but I thought I had maybe experienced those experiences of bias and understood it a little bit more. But when I went to the corporate workplace and the diversity inclusion campaigns were happening, it was just really confusing because it's hard specifically for engineering and product specifically because it's so new that there is a really, really hard time to find diverse talent. That's why I honestly believe that it's just really trying to educate underrepresented communities to understanding all of the different diverse types of roles and opportunities that you can encounter in the tech industry so, for example, like UX, UX design, UX research, data science, machine learning, all of that. So I think I was more contacted or maybe was engaged in business development companies who were looking for me to do diversity which I think it kind of...and I am such a huge proponent for diversity. But it also kind of had my heart drop a little bit because I just felt like people were contacting me because of who I am instead of just thinking like if it was just any other agency, would I be contacted specifically for that? It was more just for exclusive searches, which can be very, very hard for products and engineering. I think in diversity and inclusion, we really need to focus on different departments and the different problems that underrepresented communities encounter with different departments. So it was just really hard, but in terms of companies contacting me because I am a woman of color owning an agency, no, that didn't really...and it's never really helped. I do wear it as a badge of honor because, like I said, I started out with nothing. So to start out with nothing and have to fight through everything to sit at the table and create something is amazing. My background didn't really help me. It was really just me, just constantly contacting people. And I was prepared for this because, in my entrepreneurship minor, they said, "You're going to encounter a lot of nos," and so I did. I encountered so many nos, but eventually, I was able to turn those nos into yeses. So now that I turned some of those nos into yeses...and I'm still encountering nos, but I still keep going and still building and building. And now I do feel a sense of pride now two years later where it is like, wow, I really did have to fight through to make it, and that's where I hold just a huge sense of pride. But no, it was not my background that really...the only thing that my background was maybe appealing was thinking like, oh, okay, I think you can do diversity and inclusion, which I don't want to be profiled in that way. I just want to be a founder who happens to be a Black woman instead of a Black woman founder. And so, I don't want to be contacted to feel like my race is a part of it. And that was interesting in the corporate workplace, especially when I was trying to navigate different, you know, how to speak, how to build rapport, or how to navigate corporate workplace conversations. And that's very hard to do with diversity and inclusion because you're fighting with, like, that's racism and misogyny. That's something really deep-rooted, and that has been here for years and years. So it's a really heavy, heavy topic. And that's not some really, really heavy topic that you really want to bring or a lot of people don't really want to bring into the workplace. So that was just hard to encounter. But overall, I so, so support diversity and inclusion. And the cool part is because I have this awareness and I know that diverse teams are better teams, whenever I'm sourcing, or one of my recruiters is sourcing, I'm just making sure that they have that in the front of their mind, and they're just trying to diversify their candidate pipeline as much as possible. CHAD: Well, taking it from the candidate side of things, I, unfortunately, I'm of the belief that the hiring process is really ripe for extreme, subtle unconscious biases or conscious ones even to have an impact on the hiring process. So, how have you navigated that on the candidate side? I'm sure you don't want to say anything negative about any of your clients. It's not about, oh, this company is racist. But I think do you agree with the premise that the hiring process at a lot of companies is ripe for some bias to creep in? ANNA: Of course. I mean, all of the time. And the part that's so, I would say, scary about it is that bias is something that you feel. It's not really tangible. You can't really grab it. I mean, it can be in writing, and [laughs] there has been stuff in writing. But it's very much kind of yeah; it's non-tangible. So it's hard to really call it out specifically of like, hmm, this candidate I don't know why all of a sudden nice to haves become must-haves. Why is there a shift? Like I said, there are different problems with different departments, but there are also different problems in terms of leveling systems, so leadership roles versus individual contributor roles. There can be a little bit more, you know, maybe there's a little bit more openness on the IC side, but with leadership, it can get a little interesting sometimes. But the hard part is it's not really tangible. So I really have to give it to diversity like DEI specialists because to have to navigate those conversations and really articulate a non-tangible thing is so, so complicated. So there are tangible things you can do, like having a diverse panel. But what happens if the company doesn't even have the numbers for diversity to have that diverse panel in the first place? So it can get really complicated in terms of trying to navigate the bias within the interview process, and we do try to do our best there, just trying to provide on our side because that's all we can do. It's really up to the companies in terms of their interview processes and how they are going to change it or maintain some stages. But for us, we're just trying to just submit diverse talent and really just try to provide that white-glove service for them and hope that that bias doesn't seep in. But like I said, it's such a heavy topic. And like I said, with corporate workplace politics, it can be so fragile and really interesting. So it's just hard to really take that and understand where it comes from or being able to even verbalize it. So that's where it gets really interesting. And so, I do hope that in the future, interview processes are changed where there is able to be a diverse panel, or there is a way to really be able to understand that bias. Because like I said, it's very complicated. And we don't want to claim that any company is specifically racist, but it's just understanding bias and maybe why there's a difference for one candidate versus another candidate, which can be really interesting. CHAD: I think the first part is recognizing that everybody has biases, and it could be anything. It could be, well, what happens when you come across a resume of someone that went to the same school that you did? What happens to that resume, then? And does that subtly influence how you review that resume? It has nothing to do with their race or the color of their skin or anything. So those biases can creep in, and you need to decide as a company is this something that actually matters to success at the company? Is this something that we want to be using when we make hiring decisions about who gets that first interview or who continues on in the interview process? For us, we've decided it's not, so we have a completely anonymous screening process where we don't even show the names of schools. We don't show the names of the companies that you worked at previously. We only show the positions that you held at those companies because we've decided that whether you have a degree or not doesn't matter, and the companies that you worked at previously don't matter. It's what you were actually able to do with that experience. ANNA: Oh yeah. I think that's actually amazing. That's a really great way of doing it. I always just try to tell hiring managers also to just open that candidate pipeline as much as possible because the number one way to really understand someone isn't really through just a piece of paper. Yes, we want to make sure that the resume is at least a bit aligned. And they have, if it's an engineering role, for example, the right tech stack or maybe the right technologies or the right kind of projects that they've worked on. But other than that, you'll be so amazed what can happen when people just hop on a call with each other. You can really find just that hidden genius in people. So usually, when it comes to just diversity, it's like just hopping on a quick call with someone, anybody. Like you said, there are so many biases, but just being able to talk to them and see them as a human being can really just surprise you and surprise everybody. So really just, I always say just find that hidden genius through engaging with someone. CHAD: Yeah. So you've mentioned time to hire is a really important thing moving quickly in today's market when candidates have a lot of opportunity. What are some other ways, either trends or things that are happening in the market or things that you see changing? ANNA: Well, honey, I'm sure, as you know, there's been a huge amount of layoffs that have happened. Like, recently, about 17,000 workers were laid off from more than 70 tech startups globally in May, and that's been about a 350% jump from April. So I will say it's just due to inflation as well as just the slowing of demand. Startups right now are just really trying to just cut corners and just really trying to just hone in on their runway and their burn rate. CHAD: Are the candidates that are being laid off finding new work quickly? ANNA: I'm not sure because it depends on the departments. We're working with engineering mostly in product. So it's really funny because as we are tracking the layoffs, we will contact candidates to see if they're interested in another opportunity. Because fortunately, for our client list, we haven't had anyone have a massive amount of layoffs which has been...we're so happy about that, fortunately. But we've actually contacted engineers. And it's amazing how strong the engineering department is. It does not seem like they really are...that's not a department where there's like significant layoffs because they just have to uphold that platform. So yeah, so it still is in terms of engineering surprising with all these layoffs. It still is just very much competitive because even the people who have or the companies that have encountered a large amount of layoffs those engineers are still wanting to stay or don't...there are some that may feel the need to depart at a certain point. But for the most part, they are staying. But in terms of how quickly, I'm not entirely sure in terms of for people that are laid off how quickly they are being hired because this is also within early-stage startups or not early-stage; they also have Fortune 500s too. But yeah, I'm not sure about that part. But in terms of engineering specifically, the jobs are still just growing. The projected growth rate for software engineers is like 22%, and data scientists is 22%, as well as web developers is 13%. So fortunately for us, as an agency who primarily specializes in engineering, there hasn't been a huge difference. But like I said, specifically with engineering, that time to hire is still super important because these candidates are still encountering offers quickly. And it's just a way to be competitive because if you're just the first offer, you're the first offer in their face instead of, let's say, they have two offers from another company and you're like at the last offer. It's such a big difference there. CHAD: Are you seeing a lot of remote positions versus in-person positions? ANNA: Yes, remote is still going strong. I have seen that now there is a little bit of a trend of some startups or companies where you know because I research companies every day...I'll go on Crunchbase, Morning Brew, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, Built-In. I'll go on all of the websites, and I'm seeing who got a fresh new round of funding or who's highly growing, or any new products that companies are offering. CHAD: You're seeing some companies say that they're hiring hybrid or in person. ANNA: I am seeing that on startups and companies' career pages, once they've acquired a new round of funding or they're scaling, that on the job boards, you'll start seeing only the headquarters, so just San Francisco or just maybe Boston instead of remote. So it's been a little bit more of a quiet transition because I remember when bigger companies were announcing it like, oh, we're going to transition in the office in February of 2022 or December of 2021, then there would all of a sudden be a mass exodus of people who were seeking remote opportunities. But I do still feel that remote is still going strong, especially for high-growth startups, you know, yeah, still going strong. There is the option of hybrid. With these engineers that do have these choices, 100% remote is really becoming a great selling point. I mean, I don't even know if it's really a selling point but just standard now. CHAD: So that's what you're hearing from candidates. Candidates want that. ANNA: Definitely, candidates want. There's been plenty of candidates that we've interviewed where they've said in terms of their...because we'll ask them what would be their motivation for considering other opportunities and potentially leaving, and then they'll say, "X company is anticipating us to transition into the office, and I just don't want to do that." Their commute may be an hour, and that can be two even maybe three hours out of your day where you're spending your morning driving and then spending your evening driving. So people just prefer to be remote. Or people are located now in the Midwest. They're going back to their hometowns where they're able to instead of like these big metropolitan cities where now it's really hard to afford a house, so they're going back home and being able to enjoy their family there. So definitely it is a standard and people are really interested in it. And for companies that are having employees transition back into the office, we've consistently heard that there's just a mass exodus of people leaving. CHAD: What have you seen compensation do over the last year-plus? ANNA: I would say for compensation, I mean, in my personal opinion, when it was super competitive, it was definitely increasing. Now I feel like we're working with a Fortune 500 company, so compensation hasn't really been too, too much of a problem. So yeah, it hasn't been as competitive. But I do remember when it was maybe around Q1 and Q2 2021 where there was almost this great rehire. And everybody was scaling, and demand was soaring where the salaries were just like, it just increased or were just consistently increasing. We were just so shocked at what some software engineers were making. But now, it seems to have potentially tamed a little bit. It's not as high as it probably used to be because we were working with that series B Company and their salaries were pretty good, pretty competitive. But all of a sudden, with the demand soaring and these engineers, it started getting even more competitive. Then that's when all of a sudden, you know, the first few placements were fine. And then, all of a sudden, each candidate, like I said, they would say they were passively looking and then the next week... And this startup their time to hire was actually really great. But even with this competitive market, it was still hard because, like I said, a week later, they would already have an offer. And their salary would probably increase like 20,000-30,000 from their initial target base that they were seeking to now what they were being hired from other companies. So it would definitely increase. But I haven't seen that recently as much. CHAD: Yeah. I think also the trend to remote changed compensation, too, because it leveled it out. There were people who if you were trying to find a job in Kansas and you were going in an office, that market is very different than the U.S.-wide hiring market. But now, candidates are on the U.S.-wide hiring market. And I think that that brought up the lower end of salaries. ANNA: Oh yes. Because at first, it was like okay, we can look for...it was 100% remote, which was great, and so they were like, we can look for people in the Midwest. But during that time, companies were paying San Francisco and New York salaries, and they were offering those salaries to people who were located in Kansas and Iowa. So you would have engineers who were deep, deep in the Midwest who were asking for in terms of target for those metropolitan city salary budgets. And they would get it, which I think is great as well, just they are doing the same work as someone who is located in San Francisco or in New York but maybe with less overhead, of course. But it definitely was a little bit more of a challenge. And you can no longer assume that somebody located in the Midwest that may have lower salary bands aren't at those metropolitan city salary budgets now. CHAD: Anna, thanks much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really I'm impressed by what you've accomplished so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to be able to do in the future. ANNA: Thank you. Thank you so much, again, for inviting me. I had a great time speaking with you, and it was so interesting hearing about your time being a consultancy. Because I know being an external vendor, it's really interesting interacting with clients when you're not internal. So that was really interesting hearing about the difference of clients that you're encountering at first versus now. CHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch with Techie Staffing or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? ANNA: So in terms of contacting me, I'll say the best way would be either our website so www.techiestaffing.com. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn; my name is Anna Spearman, A-N-N-A S-P-E-A-R-M-A-N. I'm always active on LinkedIn. So if you're seeking a new opportunity either on the candidate side or either meeting, help and engaging Techie Staffing as a scaling company to fill your engineering, design, UX, and product roles, you can contact me on LinkedIn as well as filling out the forms on the Techie Staffing website. And we also are on Twitter @StaffingTechie. So definitely contact us, and we'd be happy to hear from you. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Anna Spearman.

Host Anna Borges (The More Or Less Definitive Guide to Self-Care) is joined by Dr. Renee Lemus and Dr. Christina Rose–hosts of Las Doctoras podcast–about rewriting the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and rewiring the messaging that comes from the world about who we're allowed to be.  Follow Mood Ring @moodringshow  Follow Anna @annabroges Follow Las Doctoras podcast online at lasdoctoras.net.  Mood Ring is a production of American Public Media and Pizza Shark! Full Transcript Anna Borges: Let's kick things off by reading an old journal entry of mine from freshman year of high school. And I guess that comes with all of the disclaimers that you would expect.   [sighs] All right… I wrote…   I need to get my shit together. It sounds so easy, but why have I always failed so miserably? I don't know how I let myself get so far behind, or why I can't delay instant gratification, or when I got so fucking lazy. I know what I have to do. Why can't I just do it? What is wrong with me?   I know I only wrote that in freshman year of high school because of the date at the top of the page. Because to be honest, like, I've probably written some variation of that a hundred times over in the decade and a half since then. And maybe you have too? Berating yourself for something - for not being good enough, or fast enough, or a million other things. And for me, it was my inability to focus, to accomplish my goals, to function, basically, the way that I thought I should be able to function because it seemed like everyone BUT ME could do it.   It was a recurring subplot in my journals for years.   And then, eventually—like 15 years later eventually—I got diagnosed with ADHD.   THEME MUSIC   [laughs] So…yeah. Which, that cleared a lot of things up in hindsight.   And while I felt some relief at having an explanation, I also felt this, like, sense of grief for this person I thought I knew. Like, how could it be that all of these core beliefs about myself, as unkind as they were, were suddenly just…wrong?   What do you do when you discover you've been an unreliable narrator of your own story this whole time?   Hey friends, what's up?   I'm Anna Borges and this is Mood Ring, a practical guide to feelings—even when your feelings about yourself feel like cold hard facts.   Every episode, we're exploring one new way to cope — with our feelings, with our baggage, with our brains, with the world around us. And with the unkind stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.   And today, we're talking about how the stories we've told ourselves about ourselves can burrow their way into our brains and impact our self-worth and even our whole self-concept. And a lot of those narratives come from messages we get about who we're supposed to be, or how we're expected to function, or how our lived experiences fit the mold of what we're told is normal or acceptable or right.   MUSIC   After my diagnosis, I started to wonder, like: how many of us are carrying around stories that we believe wholeheartedly, stories that tell us we're not good enough or smart enough or talented enough or worthy enough?   So this episode is about stories. Stories we tell ourselves and stories others tell us ABOUT ourselves, and how we can do the work to untangle it all.   To help us with all that untangling, I reached out to Dr. Renee Lemus and Dr. Christina Rose. Together, they host the podcast Las Doctoras and run a writing course that seeks to help students decolonize their writing and use storytelling as a form of healing. Through their work, they help people reclaim their voices and rewrite their stories in a way that's authentic to them.   MUSIC FADE OUT   Anna: Dr. Lemus and Dr. Rose, thank you so much for joining me today! I'd love for us to just dive right in and start talking about these narratives that we have about ourselves and where they come from. Specifically, it can be this feedback loop, you know? Of … stories that we've been told about ourselves that we then go on to tell the world about who we are or tell ourselves about who we are. So kind of a big question, but how does the outside world and all of the messages that we receive from it impact our own messaging?   Dr. Lemus: You know we're, we're gender studies professors, right? We're women's studies professors. We're always going to have that feminist perspective on things and add that lens. I think a big, we've always named that a big part of what we do in our classes is to give language to our experiences, right. But I think we live in a world that wants to say that if we experienced oppression, it's our fault. It's something that we did wrong or we didn't do something right. And I think, or, or wants to gaslight our experience and say, no, you didn't experience that. Like, that you're [Anna: yeah] you're just being too sensitive. And so I think we always come in to say, like, to validate that experience and say, yes, you experienced sexism. Yes, you experienced racism. And to give language to things that we already know in our bodies, right. And, and validate those experiences as some, and to know where to place, not the blame, but to place our frustrations. And so I think for us, we, when it comes to our story, we can feel empowered to tell our story, because we know that … we're not the only ones experiencing it and it's not our fault. Right. It's not, it's not a flaw in us that we can't meet every need of our household and our children, because the structures of society don't give us enough support to do those things! Anna: I, I, I work with therapists all day. So like, I'm like putting the answer out there as though I know it, but like, I imagine gaining awareness of these type of narratives and messages that you've internalized has to be this first step, because otherwise, how can you start to rewrite them? And so how, how can we start to gain that awareness?   Dr. Rose: Well we're learning, I think to check in with our bodies, you know [Anna: yeah!] I think our bodies can really tell us those things, you know? I think that, you know, again, that narrative that would have us basically sacrifice ourself for any cause, anything or just, I don't know. For, for labor, for, you know, the common good, for religion, for family and all these things. Really takes a toll on our whole being. And sometimes it is our body that can, can really give us the, the truthful and not like not, or a real, like it doesn't. I say, my, my body doesn't lie. You know, it's like the, the book, that, My Body Keeps the Score or something like that. But if my back hurts, you know, or if my shoulders hurt, like, that's undeniable, it's like, it's kind, it's not like I can, from this air, you know, earthy air perspective, kind of convince myself. I can just think about my feelings, right. We were talking about that too. Like, I actually need to feel them. I need to cry. And that's, so I know when I'm crying or I know when I actually do some things for my body that could be movement. It could actually be like artwork. It could be like meditation, it could be stretching. You know, I think that's, that's where I know I'm doing, I'm taking at least the first step, you know, and when my body talks to me and I listen, maybe that's even the, the, the step before. Dr. Lemus: If we're tired, we're tired. Right. And we're going to, so I, I definitely think it starts with really just a lot of self-reflection. I wanted to say, I think another important part of this is like, where do we start is community. [Dr. Rose: Yes!] Who you [laughs] you, you've surrounded yourself with, because I mean, and, and I would say like, for me, there's different communities, right, that I'm in, and some give me this certain part that I need and this other, you know. But I think again, when you're in academia, right, or in any kind of, let's say mainstream or even corporate or whatever kind of environment that you don't feel is like your safe environment. You need somewhere to feel safe, where you can let go, where you can [laughs] you can call and rant and say, oh my God, I experienced this thing, you know? [laughs] Which is basically what our podcast is, is just about ranting about things. But I think community where you can feel safe, where they can validate your experiences. Where you have very similar values. Where you're invested in the same things and feel supported so that … you're not always having to be productive. Where you can pick up where each other left off. Because I have community, I'm able to validate my experiences more and I'm able to feel empowered in my story more because I'm not being gas- like society's gonna gaslight us all day long. So when you have a community and somebody to say, no, yes, you deserve to rest or you deserve … it's okay that you're angry. Then that just, ugh, it feels like you can, you know, rest a lot more. [Anna: oh!]   Dr. Rose: I just want to name that that's intentional too, like, you know? Just, you know, society, or like the Western framework really wants us to be like an, like a disembodied head that just like, like does stuff, you know, produces things… Anna: …and questions our experience too. Dr. Rose: And also yes. And it wants us to be isolated too. Like, it's, they do wanna create this abusive relationship dynamic where you can't reach out to your community, like you should handle this alone. So I just think those messages are real. And I just wanna, I wanna know, that everyone to know that it's not, you, you know, and, and liberating yourself from that, you know, reaching out and to other people and, and, and to your body is, you know, radical, radical feminism. Anna: It's really stuck with me, the point Dr. Lemus and Dr. Rose make about how these harmful narratives we have about ourselves can fester in isolation. Because I don't know about you, but when I'm alone, I don't stop to question the voice in my head that says I'm defective. I don't think to ask, “Wait, who's voice is that and how did it get in there?” And when those thoughts go unchallenged for long enough, that's when they become part of the story I tell myself about myself. After the break, we'll talk about what it means to rewrite our stories—especially when we've believed a different narrative for so long. MIDROLL Anna: Hey, welcome back to Mood Ring. I'm Anna Borges. Before the break, we were talking to  Dr. Renee Lemus and Dr. Christina Rose about rewriting the self-destructive stories we tell ourselves. Let's get back to it. Anna: I like to say in therapy and like, you know, when we talk about stuff like narrative therapy, for example, which is kind of like the brain process that I, I, I followed for this episode, but. I like to say when my therapist and I talk about doing this kind of exercise of like rewriting my story, I get super overwhelmed, trying to figure out, I'm like, which part of my story, whose story, what, what does rewriting it mean? How do I write my story?   Dr. Lemus: Yeah, this is, this is where, I mean, we would say, this is where ceremony comes in. This is where, writing is the small part of it, right. It's to say, first, you have to be present in your body. Right. So whatever that means to you, whether it's meditation, whether it's dancing, whether it's… doing some art, like, whatever that looks like to you, that it means to be present in your body. Kind of letting go of [Dr. Rose: past] you know, all the other things. Yeah. And just being in the moment. So part of my meditation practice, and part of something that Christine and I do in our courses, in our meditation or our like grounding centering practices is to call in our ancestors, is to call in whatever spiritual guides, you know, you're down with. And, or even calling in our inner child. [Anna: yeah] Calling in our higher self. Right. All of those, all the parts of us that sometimes we forget. Our imagination. Like, that's a big thing that we do in our courses is we think that … [Dr. Rose: Intuition] Intuition, like we think, like kids are so imaginative they're so in their imagination. And then at some point we let that go, cuz we think we have to be realistic. And so we're like, how can we tap back into that? And so it's, it's yeah. It's getting centered, you know, calling in maybe whatever spiritual guides you have. And then just kind of, yeah. I start just asking myself, like, if I was interviewing myself, like, how's it going today? Or, you know, or maybe I am pissed about something and just like ranting. And, and what that does. And again, something else we do in our course, is we do like these warm up writing activities, just write without thinking. And many, I mean, you can, you can look up prompts, online, whatever. And in doing that, it gets those juices flowing. And then what you really want to write about kind of comes through, but it's hard to do that when you're like sitting cold, right. You're like, I'm gonna go write. And you're sitting there and you're like nothing's happening, right. Or I don't know what to do or-   Anna: Or why can't I run this marathon right now? [laughs]   Dr. Lemus: Yeah. And so it's to say like, give yourself grace, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just kind of literally just write anything, anything. Sometimes I will even read something and I'll like rewrite just to have that … that somatic experience of writing something, even if I'm like quoting another book. And then once my body starts getting going, I, my, my voice starts to come out. Dr. Rose: And it doesn't have like an end goal either. Like I was even thinking, you could begin with recording your dreams, you know, in some way [Anna: ah that's a great place to start] You know, cuz I think, or even just listening, listening to your dreams, you know, and waking up and it could be, it could be like a journal. It could be written down or you could just voice memo it, like this is what I dreamed, you know, like that's a beautiful, that's a beautiful space of listening and hearing and listening and writing, you know, recording. Anna: Love that. So we've been talking about writing and now I would like to talk about metaphorically rewriting because for me, like I'm a big journaler and what I, what I've been thinking about a lot lately is when I journal that's often the first time I'm telling my story to myself, you know, it's like seeing my own thoughts in black and white and conversing with myself. And I also like to reread my journals a lot and going back and saying like, oh, okay, like, this is how I thought about this at the time, sometimes it's changed. And sometimes I'm like, oh, that is how I thought about it at the time. And how it's, I've been thinking about it ever since. And like, I would like to rethink about this thing that I was telling myself. And so I'm curious if you have any sort of like, if that shows up in like in your work, in like a literal way too, like how you literally rewrite or retell your stories yourself when you found out that the first one was not the story that you wanted to tell yourself. Dr. Lemus: I think it's just having grace for your own growth. Like grace is such a big theme for us is just like really giving yourself permission to just be where you're at now. I, that's what I tell my students. I say, wherever your relationship is with, you know, whatever, like the world it's, you know, it's not gonna always be like this. It's going to evolve. It's going to change and that's okay. You know, even your identity, right? Your relationship with your identity, that's gonna change. That's going to evolve. Nothing is stagnant. And so I think just giving yourself grace for what your story used to be. And, and, I was telling some of my students cuz we were rounding up the semester and they were like, oh I think I'm too confrontational. Cuz I, I'll call people out on too much. And I'm like, I'm too much. Anna: Oh, big narrative I see a lot. Dr. Lemus: And I tell them one, you're not too much. Two, I said, I was like that when I was in my twenties and I am much more discerning now of where I put my energy, but I am so grateful to my 20 year old self for being so confrontational with people because it allowed me to set boundaries. So I think it's like, yes, I have evolved. But I'm also really grateful for those times, those things that I did, or even those stories that I would tell myself because it helped me to, to evolve, right. Those, because I got those stories out of me, then I was able to like make room to process and grow. Anna: What's so funny is that's I think the process I go through when I reread by journals, you know, I think, I think of my past self in a certain way, usually like a not very nice way and like rereading how I was telling myself the story and the time, now that leads me to like that kind of thing. Like, oh, okay. Well my new story is like, no, I didn't used to be like XYZ, negative thought. There are too many to pick from right now, you know, it was actually this. So, Christina, what would you add? Dr. Rose: I was thinking of the danger of the single story, you know, this sense of that. And, and I'm, again, this world that we were raised in believes that even like we only have one narrative going on in ourselves, you know… Anna: Multiplicity who? We are one, never changing person. Dr. Lemus: Right, monolithic. Dr. Rose: And one of the exercises that we often do is, we, week six or something in our, you know, eight week course, we'll take a look at something we wrote in week one or two. And we'll look at it from a perspective of, like, a loving adult, which we are, you know [laughs] you know, coming to that, coming back to a piece of writing from a place of grace, I love that love. And as, and, and as if we were, you know, the, the parent of the person who wrote that or the caretaker or the abuela or the elder, you know, but from a place of the love that we give to other people, you know, the love we give to those that we take care of. And so I think that's a, so that … exercise is such a shift in perspective for me too, you know, because yes, when I do go through my journals, I don't do it annually. I do do it like, probably every seven years or so. And it is a big deal and I do cry and it is, you know, it is, and it's beautiful. And it's also like heartbreaking. I'm like mija, like what the heck were you giving your energy to that person? Like, like no more, you know, it's, it's a big lesson, you know, for me. And um, and I do try to make it a ceremony too, you know, because I need, in order to come from a place of love, often I need my guides, I need my ancestors. I need the spirit world to be like around me, those who love me, you know? So that's what I would add. Anna: Before we wrapped, I was going to ask if someone was listening and just was like raring to go start scribbling where they would start. But I, I love both of the things that you just outlined, whether it's expanding on something with curiosity or writing to, to your younger self, your inner child. Those both sound like great places, so unless you have something else that you would suggest to our listeners for like one last writing prompt, Dr. Lemus: One last one last writing prompts is to like, do an outline of a children's, like a children's book where you're the main character, right? Like, and what would her superpowers be or their superpowers be and what would their environment be like? And yeah. Anna: Ahhhh! That is, is so good. I, I wanna go do that like right now, but this has been such an amazing conversation. I wish it could go on for like two more hours. So thank you for, for joining me today and talking about some of my favorite things and sharing some of your beautiful insights that I wanted to go write about now. So. Dr. Lemus: Thank you. Thank you for having, for having us. Anna: There's a reason I think of my later-in-life diagnosis when I think of the importance of rewriting my story or how I tell my story. It's that, like, our understanding of ourselves is always changing. Or like Dr. Rose said, we don't only have one story. We're made up of stories, past and present, and rewriting isn't about like denying the truth of our experiences at the time or correcting ourselves in retrospect—it's about releasing the false narratives that we're still holding onto as true, you know, so we can make room for the stories we want to tell. And… I mean, I don't know about you, but I think the next story I want to try telling is that children's book Dr. Lemus was talking about. So…who else is in? THEME MUSIC CREDITS Thanks for listening to Mood Ring, a production of APM Studios and Pizza Shark. We're a new show, so it really helps if you rate, review and share this episode with your friends.       You can even tag me if you're really into it — I'm @AnnaBroges on Twitter – that's Anna B-R-O-G-E-S … because Anna Borges was taken. We want to hear from you. You can get in touch at Moodringshow DOT ORG and click “Contact Us.” Or follow Mood Ring Show on Twitter and Instagram. You can also call and leave us a message at 833-666-3746.   Mood Ring was developed by Kristina Lopez. Our executive producers are Maria Murriel, Isis Madrid and Beth Pearlman. Our story editor is Erika Janik. Mijoe Sahiouni is our digital producer. This episode was produced by Jordan Kauwling. And as you know, I'm Anna Borges and I write, host and produce this show too.   APM Executives in charge are Chandra Kavati, Alex Schaffert and Joanne Griffith. And finally, our music is by Mat Rotenberg.   Thanks again for listening, and I hope to see you next episode!   MUSIC FADE OUT

Welcome to May 27, 2022 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate a portable fridge and the gateway to adventure. One of the most useful inventions to come out of World War II was styrofoam, which was originally intended as a replacement for rubber. In the post-war years, styrofoam got put to a new use—portable coolers. As Americans settled into suburban life, picnics and barbecues became popular, which drove the demand for a way to keep foods and beverages cold outside the home. Companies like Coleman and Igloo capitalized on the trend and soon the portable cooler became an everyday item. On the Friday before Memorial Day, celebrate National Cooler Day by loading up this portable fridge and heading to the great outdoors. Anna: So Marlo, we're packing a cooler and heading to Kingman, AZ today right? Marlo: I know, I'm so excited. It's gonna be great to finally time to celebrate National Road Trip Day! Anna: And we are kicking off the party from Kingman because it's the official Gateway to Route 66. Marlo: That's right. So look for us around town if you get there. Anna: Do you have a favorite memories from when we filmed our television show there? Marlo: Oh, probably the ribs and beer and music of course. Anna: I know, I'm bringing my kids just to go to Mr. Dz Diner and have a bottomless root beer float. Marlo: That is actually my favorite thing there. John: Did you guys say "bottomless root beer float?" I'm changing my name to that. Anna: It's so good! And Desert Diamond Distillery makes these chocolate rum filled candies that I still dream about. John: I wanna check out this guy's walking tour tell me about this. Anna: Jim Hinckley is amazing, he makes history fun and they've curated a whole walk about town with historical places and his stories to go with them and the man himself will be there. John: I am excited for that. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Anna Malaika Tubbs is a New York Times Bestselling author, advocate, and educator who is inspired to bring people together through the celebration of difference. Motivated by her mother's work advocating for women's and children's rights around the world, Anna uses an intersectional lens to advocate for women of color and educate others. Her focus is on addressing gender and race issues in the US, especially the pervasive erasure of Black women which she explored in her recent release The Three Mothers: How the Mothers of Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation. Connect with Anna and her work in the links below: Book: https://amzn.to/3wam81hHIGHLIGHTS02:23 The secret power of power naps 05:12 The story behind the book 10:24 Rewriting the stories of the black mothers 15:22 The role of white supremacy in the erasure of black mothers' stories19:50 Black people do not need to educate everyone of their pain22:35 We don't need to carry the burden alone23:40 Anna's self-care habits and ways to prioritize family32:35 Ways that society can improve their treatment of black mothers 38:32 Raising a black family in this political climate 50:19 Change is always possible in the worldQUOTES08:31 Anna: "It happens all the time, that black women's stories are erased, that black mother's contributions are taken for granted. But I narrowed it down to the civil rights movement because we come back to it all the time in our policy discussions."10:30 Anna: "It's very clear there's an intentional erasure of women's stories, and very specifically black women's stories. Because it doesn't fit this kind of hegemonic notion of this white male who is the leader, this white cisgender male as the hero of every story. It doesn't fit that, we're just gonna say it never happened or it didn't exist."34:59 Anna: "These biases in our healthcare systems that tell back women, you're imagining this, this is just something you're feeling, happen over and over and over again. The black maternal health crisis, so much of it is a result of bias against black women that doesn't hear us, when I say this is happening to me." 36:48 Anna: "We as a nation have seen over and over again that policing should not be responsible for social work. There should be more funding put towards social workers and de-escalation and thinking about other resources that people could call, especially victims of domestic violence."41:16 Anna: "I needed to keep a hold on my joy and my love, and not allow fear to be the only thing that I was feeling. To use that fear as a driving force, to face it, not to hide it.  Say don't be afraid, but say yes, this world can be very scary but my joy and my agency is something I need to hold on to because that's how I continue to fight against these forces."Please leave a five-star review for the Get Loved Up Podcast. When you leave that review, please take a screenshot and email me at koya@koyawebb.com, and I've got a little gift for you.Your thoughts light up Koya's soul, and it helps continue to bring on great guests.To hear more about Koya Webb and Get Loved Up episodes, please visit her website at https://koyawebb.com/.

About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey.Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.How do I adapt my security practices for the cloud-native world?How do I select and deploy appropriate tools and processes to address business needs?How do I make sense of new technology trends like threat deception, machine learning, and containers?Links: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ “2022 Cloud-Native Security and Usage Report”: https://sysdig.com/2022-cloud-native-security-and-usage-report/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/aabelak LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aabelak/ Email: anna.belak@sysdig.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance query accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service, although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLAP and OLTP—don't ask me to pronounce those acronyms again—workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time-consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Once upon a time, I went to a conference talk at, basically, a user meetup. This was in the before times, when that wasn't quite as much of a deadly risk because of a pandemic, and mostly a deadly risk due to me shooting my mouth off when it wasn't particularly appreciated.At that talk, I wound up seeing a new open-source project that was presented to me, and it was called Sysdig. I wasn't quite sure on what it did at the time and I didn't know what it would be turning into, but here we are now, what is it, five years later. Well, it's turned into something rather interesting. This is a promoted episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig and my guest today is their Director of Thought Leadership, Anna Belak. Anna, thank you for joining me.Anna: Hi, Corey. I'm very happy to be here. I'm a big fan.Corey: Oh, dear. So, let's start at the beginning. Well, we'll start with the title: Director of Thought Leadership. That is a lofty title, it sounds like you sit on the council of the Lords of Thought somewhere. Where does your job start and stop?Anna: I command the Council of the Lords of thought, actually. [laugh].Corey: Supply chain issues mean the robe wasn't available. I get it, I get it.Anna: There is a robe. I'm just not wearing it right now. So, the shortest way to describe the role is probably something that reports into engineering, interestingly, and it deals with product and marketing in a way that is half evangelism and half product strategy. I just didn't feel like being called any of those other things, so they were like, “Director of Thought Leadership you are.” And I was like, “That sounds awesome.”Corey: You know, it's one of those titles that people generally don't see a whole lot of, so if nothing else, I always liked those job titles that cause people to sit up and take notice as opposed to something that just people fall asleep by the time you get halfway through it because, in lieu of a promotion, people give you additional adjectives in your title. And we're going to go with it. So, before you wound up at Sysdig, you were at Gartner for a number of years.Anna: That's right, I spent about six years at Gartner, and there half the time I covered containers, Kubernetes, and DevOps from an infrastructure perspective, and half the time I spent covering security operations, actually, not specifically with respect to containers, or cloud, but broadly. And so my favorite thing is security operations, as it relates to containers and cloud-native workloads, which is kind of how I ended up here.Corey: I wouldn't call that my favorite thing. It's certainly something that is near and dear to the top of mind, but that's not because I like it, let's put it [laugh] that way. It's one of those areas where getting it wrong is catastrophic. Back in 2017, when I went to that meetup in San Francisco, Sysdig seemed really interesting to me because it looked like it tied together a whole bunch of different diagnostic tools, LSOF, strace, and the rest. Honestly—and I mean no slight to the folks who built out this particular tool—it felt like DTrace, only it understood the value of being accessible to its users without basically getting a doctorate in something.I like the idea, and it felt like it was very much aimed at an in-depth performance analysis story or an observability play. But today, it seems that you folks have instead gone in much more of a direction of DevSecOps, if the people listening to this, and you, will pardon the term. How did that happen? What was that product evolution like?Anna: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, actually. And again, no disrespect to DTrace of which I'm also a fan. So, we certainly started out in the container observability space, essentially because this whole Docker Kubernetes thing was exploding in popularity—I mean, before it was exploding, it was just kind of like, peaking out—and very quickly, our founder Loris, who is the co-founder of Wireshark, was like, “Hey, there's a visibility issue here. We can't see inside these things with the tools that we have that are built for host instrumentation, so I'm going to make a thing.” And he made a thing, and it was an awesome thing that was open-sourced.And then ultimately, what happened is, the ecosystem of containers and communities evolved, and more and more people started to adopt it. And so more people needed kind of a more, let's say, hefty, serious tool for observability, and then what followed was another tool for security because what we actually discovered was the data that we're able to collect from the system with Sysdig is incredibly useful for noticing security problems. So, that caused us to kind of expand into that space. And today we are very much a tool that still has an observability component that is quite popular, has a security component which is it's fairly broad: We cover CSPM use cases, we cover [CIEM 00:05:04] use cases, and we are very, kind of let's say, very strong and very serious about our detection response and runtime security use cases, which come from that pedigree of the original Sysdig as well.Corey: You can get a fairly accurate picture of what the future of technology looks like by taking a look at what my opinion of something is, and then doing the exact opposite of that. I was a big believer that virtualization, “Complete flash in the pan; who's going to use that?” Public cloud, “Are you out of your tree? No one's going to trust other companies with their holy of holies.” And I also spent a lot of time crapping on containers and not actually getting into them.Instead, I leapfrogged over into the serverless land, which I was a big fan of, which of course means that it's going to be doomed sooner or later. My security position has also somewhat followed similar tracks where, back when you're running virtual machines that tend to be persistent, you really have to care about security because you are running full-on systems that are persistent, and they run all kinds of different services simultaneously. Looking at Lambda Functions, for example, in the modern serverless world, I always find a lot of the tooling and services and offerings around security for that are a little overblown. They have a defined narrow input, they have a defined output, there usually aren't omnibus functions shoved in here where they have all kinds of different code paths. And it just doesn't have the same attack surface, so it often feels like it's trying to sell me something I don't need. Security in the container world is one of those areas I never had to deal with in anger, as a direct result. So, I have to ask, how bad is it?Anna: Well, I have some data to share with you, but I'll start by saying that I maybe was the opposite of you, so we'll see which one of us wins this one. I was an instant container fangirl from the minute I discovered them. But I crapped out—Corey: The industry shows you were right on that one. I think the jury [laugh] is pretty much in on this one.Anna: Oh, I will take it. But I did crap on Lambda Functions pretty hard. I was like, “Serverless? This is dumb. Like, how are we ever going to make that work?” So, it seems to be catching on a little bit, at least it. It does seem like serverless is playing the function of, like, the glue between bits, so that does actually make a lot of sense. In retrospect, I don't know that we're going to have—Corey: Well, it feels like it started off with a whole bunch of constraints around it, and over time, they've continued to relax those constraints. It used to be, “How do I package this?” It's, “Oh, simple. You just spent four days learning about all the ins and outs of this,” and now it's, “Oh, yeah. You just give it a Docker file?” “Oh. Well, that seems easier. I could have just been stubborn and waited.” Hindsight.Anna: Yeah, exactly. So, containers as they are today, I think are definitely much more usable than they were five-plus years ago. There are—again there's a lot of commercial support around these things, right? So, if you're, you know, like, a big enterprise client, then you don't really have time to fool around in open-source, you can go in, buy yourself a thing, and they'll come with support, and somebody will hold your hand as you figure it out, and it's actually quite, quite pleasant. Whether or not that has really gone mainstream or whether or not we've built out the entire operational ecosystem around it in a, let's say, safe and functional way remains to be seen. So, I'll share some data from our report, which is actually kind of the key thing I want to talk about.Corey: Yeah, I wanted to get into that. You wound up publishing this somewhat recently, and I regret that as of the time of this recording, I have not yet had time to go into it in-depth, and of course eviscerate it in my typical style on Twitter—although that may have been rectified by the time that this show airs, to be very clear—but it's the Sysdig “2022 Cloud-Native Security and Usage Report”.Anna: Please at me when you Twitter-shred it. [laugh].Corey: Oh, when I read through and screenshot it, and I'd make what observations that I imagine are witty. But I'm looking forward to it; I've done that periodically with the Flexera, “State of the Cloud” report for last few years, and every once in a while, whatever there's a, “We've done a piece of thought leadership, and written a report,” it's, “Oh, great. Let's make fun of it.” That's basically my default position on things. I am not a popular man, as you might imagine. But not having had the chance to go through it in-depth, what did this attempt to figure out when the study was built, and what did you learn that you found surprising?Anna: Yeah, so the first thing I want to point out because it's actually quite important is that this report is not a survey. This is actual data from our actual back end. So, we're a SaaS provider, we collect data for our customers, we completely anonymize it, and then we show in aggregate what in fact we see them doing or not doing. Because we think this is a pretty good indicator of what's actually happening versus asking people for their opinion, which is, you know, their opinion.Corey: Oh, I love that. My favorite lies that people tell are the lies they don't realize that they're telling. It's, I'll do an AWS bill analysis and, “Great. So, tell me about all these instances you have running over in Frankfurt.” “Oh, we don't have anything there.”I believe you're being sincere when you say this, however, the data does show otherwise, and yay, now we're in a security incident.Anna: Exactly.Corey: I'm a big believer of going to the actual source for things like this where it's possible.Anna: Exactly. So, I'll tell you my biggest takeaway from the whole thing probably was that I was surprised by the lack of… surprise. And I work in cloud-native security, so I'm kind of hoping every single day that people will start adopting these modern patterns of, like, discarding images, and deploying new ones when they found a vulnerability, and making ephemeral systems that don't run for a long time like a virtual machine in disguise, and so on. And it appears that that's just not really happening.Corey: Yeah, it's always been fun, more than a little entertaining, when I wind up taking a look at the aspirational plans that companies have. “Great, so when are you going to do”—“Oh, we're going to get to that after the next sprint.” “Cool.” And then I just set a reminder and I go back a year later, and, “How's that coming?” “Oh, yeah. We're going to get to that next sprint.”It's the big lie that we always tell ourselves that right after we finished this current project, then we're going to suddenly start doing smart things, making the right decisions, and the rest. Security, cost, and a few other things all tend to fall on the side of, you can spend infinite money and infinite time on these things, but it doesn't advance what your business is doing, but if you do none of those things, you don't really have a business anymore. So, it's always a challenge to get it prioritized by the strategic folks.Anna: Exactly. You're exactly right because what people ultimately do is they prioritize business needs, right? They are prioritizing whatever makes them money or creates the trinkets their selling faster or whatever it is, right? The interesting thing, though, is if you think about who our customers would be, like, who the people in this dataset are, they are all companies who are probably more or less born in the cloud or at least have some arm that is born in the cloud, and they are building software, right? So, they're not really just your average enterprises you might see in a Gartner client base which is more broad; they are software companies.And for software companies, delivering software faster is the most important thing, right, and then delivering secure software faster, should be the most important thing, but it's kind of like the other thing that we talk about and don't do. And that's actually what we found. We found that people do deliver software faster because of containers and cloud, but they don't necessarily deliver secure software faster because as is one of our data points, 75% of containers that run in production have critical or high vulnerabilities that have a patch available. So, they could have been fixed but they weren't fixed. And people ask why, right? And why, well because it's hard; because it takes time; because something else took priority; because I've accepted the risk. You know, lots of reasons why.Corey: One of the big challenges, I think, is that I can walk up and down the expo hall at the RSA Conference, which until somewhat recently, you were not allowed to present that or exhibit at unless you had the word ‘firewall' in your talk title, or wound up having certain amounts of FUD splattered across your banners at the show floor. It feels like there are 12 products—give or take—for sale there, but there are hundreds of booths because those products have different names, different messaging, and the rest, but it all feels like it distills down to basically the same general categories. And I can buy all of those things. And it costs an enormous pile of money, and at the end of it, it doesn't actually move the needle on what my business is doing. At least not in a positive direction, you know? We just set a giant pile of money on fire to make sure that we're secure.Well, great. Security is never an absolute, and on top of that, there's always the question of what are we trying to achieve as a business. As a goal—from a strategic perspective—security often looks a lot like, “Please let's not have a data breach that we have to report to people.” And ideally, if we have a lapse, we find out about it through a vector that is other than the front page of The New York Times. That feels like it's a challenging thing to get prioritized in a lot of these companies. And you have found in your report that there are significant challenges, of course, but also that some companies in some workloads are in fact getting it right.Anna: Right, exactly. So, I'm very much in line with your thinking about this RSA shopping spree, and the reality of that situation is that even if we were to assume that all of the products you bought at the RSA shopping center were the best of breed, the most amazing, fantastic, perfect in every way, you would still have to somehow build a program on top of them. You have to have a process, you have to have people who are bought into that process, who are skilled enough to execute on that process, and who are more or less in agreement with the people next door to them who are stuck using one of the 12 trinkets you bought, but not the one that you're using. So, I think that struggle persists into the cloud and may actually be worse in the cloud because now, not only are we having to create a processor on all these tools so that we can actually do something useful with them, but the platform in which we're operating is fundamentally different than what a lot of us learned on, right?So, the priorities in cloud are different; the way that infrastructure is built is a little different, like, you have to program a YAML file to make yourself an instance, and that's kind of not how we are used to doing it necessarily, right? So, there are lots of challenges in terms of skills gap, and then there's just this eternal challenge of, like, how do we put the right steps into place so that everybody who's involved doesn't have to suffer, right, and that the thing that comes out at the end is not garbage. So, our approach to it is to try to give people all the pieces they need within a certain scope, so again, we're talking about people developing software in a cloud-native world, we're focused kind of on containers and cloud workloads even though it's not necessarily containers. So that's, like, our sandbox, right? But whoever you are, right, the idea is that you need to look to the left—because we say ‘shift left'—but then you kind of have to follow that thread all the way to the right.And I actually think that the thing that people most often neglect is the thing on the right, right? They maybe check for compliance, you know, they check configurations, they check for vulnerabilities, they check, blah, blah, blah, all this checking and testing. They release their beautiful baby into the world, and they're like, okay, I wash my hands of it. It's fine. [laugh]. Right but—Corey: It has successfully been hurled over the fence. It is the best kind of problem, now: Someone else's.Anna: It's gone. Yeah. But it's someone else's—the attacker community, right, who are now, like, “Oh, delicious. A new target.” And like, that's the point at which the fun starts for a lot of those folks who are on the offensive side. So, if you don't have any way to manage that thing's security as it's running, you're kind of like missing the most important piece, right? [laugh].Corey: One of the challenges that I tend to see with a lot of programmatic analysis of this is that it doesn't necessarily take into account any of the context because it can't. If I have, for example, a containerized workload that's entire job is to take an image from S3, run some analysis or transformation on it then output the results of that to some data store, and that's all it's allowed to talk to you, it can't ever talk to the internet, having a system that starts shrieking about, “Ah, there's a vulnerability in one of the libraries that was used to build that container; fix it, fix it, fix it,” doesn't feel like it's necessarily something that adds significant value to what I do. I mean, I see this all the time with very purpose-built Lambda Functions that I have doing one thing and one thing only. “Ah, but one of the dependencies in the JSON processing library could turn into something horrifying.” “Yeah, except the only JSON it's dealing with is what DynamoDB returns. The only thing in there is what I've put in there.”That is not a realistic vector of things for me to defend against. The challenge then becomes when everything is screaming that it's an emergency when you know, due to context, that it's not, people just start ignoring everything, including the, “Oh, and by the way, the building is on fire,” as one of—like, on page five, that's just a small addendum there. How do you view that?Anna: The noise insecurity problem, I think, is ancient and forever. So, it was always bad, right, but in cloud—at least some containers—you would think it should be less bad, right, because if we actually followed these sort of cloud-native philosophy, of creating very purp—actually it's called the Unix philosophy from, like, I don't know, before I was born—creating things that are fairly purposeful, like, they do one thing—like you're saying—and then they disappear, then it's much easier to know what they're able to do, right, because they're only able to do what we've told them, they're able to do. So, if this thing is enabled to make one kind of network connection, like, I'm not really concerned about all the other network connections it could be making because it can't, right? So, that should make it easier for us to understand what the attack surface actually is. Unfortunately, it's fairly difficult to codify and productize the discovery of that, and the enrichment of the vulnerability information or the configuration information with that.That is something we are definitely focusing on as a vendor. There are other folks in the industry that are also working on this kind of thing. But you're exactly right, the prioritization of not just a vulnerability, but a vulnerability is a good example. Like, it's a vulnerability, right? Maybe it's a critical or maybe it's not.First of all, is it exposed to the outside world somehow? Like, can we actually talk to this system? Is it mitigated, right? Maybe there's some other controls in place that is mitigating that vulnerability. So, if you look at all this context, at the end of the day, the question isn't really, like, how many of these things can I ignore? The question is at the very least, which are the most important things that I actually can't ignore? So, like you're saying, like, the buildings on fire, I need to know, and if it's just, like, a smoldering situation, maybe that's not so bad. But I really need to know about the fire.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: It always becomes a challenge of prioritization, and that has been one of those things that I think, on some level, might almost cut against a tool that works at the level that Sysdig does. I mean, something that you found in your report, but I feel like, on some level, is one of those broadly known, or at least unconsciously understood things is, you can look into a lot of these tools that give incredibly insightful depth and explore all kinds of neat, far-future, bleeding edge, absolute front of the world, deep-dive security posture defenses, but then you have a bunch of open S3 buckets that have all of your company's database backups living in them. It feels like there's a lot of walk before you can run. And then that, on some level, leads to the wow, we can't even secure our S3 buckets; what's the point of doing anything beyond that? It's easy to, on some level, almost despair, want to give up, for some folks that I've spoken to. Do you find that is a common thing or am I just talking to people who are just sad all the time?Anna: I think a lot of security people are sad all the time. So, the despair is real, but I do think that we all end up in the same solution, right? The solution is defense in depth, the solution is layer control, so the reality is if you don't bother with the basic security hygiene of keeping your buckets closed, and like not giving admin access to every random person and thing, right? If you don't bother with those things, then, like, you're right, you could have all the tools in the world and you could have the most advanced tools in the world, and you're just kind of wasting your time and money.But the flipside of that is, people will always make mistakes, right? So, even if you are, quote-unquote, “Doing everything right,” we're all human, and things happen, and somebody will leave a bucket open on accident, or somebody will misconfigure some server somewhere, allowing it to make a connection it shouldn't, right? And so if you actually have built out a full pipeline that covers you from end-to-end, both pre-deployment, and at runtime, and for vulnerabilities, and misconfigurations, and for all of these things, then you kind of have checks along the way so that this problem doesn't make it too far. And if it does make it too far and somebody actually does try to exploit you, you will at least see that attack before they've ruined everything completely.Corey: One thing I think Sysdig gets very right that I wish this was not worthy of commenting on, but of course, we live in the worst timeline, so of course it is, is that when I pull up the website, it does not market itself through the whole fear, uncertainty, and doubt nonsense. It doesn't have the scary pictures of, “Do you know what's happening in your environment right now?” Or the terrifying statistics that show that we're all about to die and whatnot. Instead, it talks about the value that it offers its customers. For example, I believe its opening story is, “Run with confidence.” Like, great, you actually have some reassurance that it is not as bad as it could be. That is, on the one hand, a very uplifting message and two, super rare. Why is it that so much of the security industry resorts to just some of the absolute worst storytelling tactics in order to drive sales?Anna: That is a huge compliment, Corey, and thank you. We try very hard to be kind of cool in our marketing.Corey: It shows. I'm tired of the 1990s era story of, “Do you know where the hackers are?” And of course, someone's wearing, like, a ski mask and typing with gloves on—which is always how I break into things; I don't know about you—but all right, we have the scary clip art of the hacker person, and it just doesn't go anywhere positive.Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think there certainly was a trend for a while have this FUD approach. And it's still prevalent in the industry, in some circles more than others. But at the end of the day, Cloud is hard and security is hard, and we don't really want to add to the suffering; we would like to add to the solution, right? So, I don't think people don't know that security is hard and that hackers are out there.And you know, there's, like, ransomware on the news every single day. It's not exactly difficult to tell that there's a challenge there, so for us to have to go and, like, exacerbate this fear is almost condescending, I feel, which is kind of why we don't. Like, we know people have problems, and they know that they need to solve them. I think the challenge really is just making sure that A) can folks know where to start and how to build a sane roadmap for themselves? Because there are many, many, many things to work on, right?We were talking about context before, right? Like, so we actually try to gather this context and help people. You made a comment about how having a lot of telemetry might actually be a little bit counterproductive because, like, there's too much data, what do I do well—Corey: Here's the 8000 findings we found that you fail—great. Yeah. Congratulations, you're effectively the Nessus report as a company. Great. Here you go.Anna: Everything is over.Corey: Yeah.Anna: Well, no shit, Nessus, you know. Nessus did its thing. All right. [laugh].Corey: Oh, Nessus was fantastic. Nessus was—for those who are unaware, Nessus was an open-source scanner made by the folks at Tenable, and what was great about it was that you could run it against an environment, it would spit out all the things that it found. Now, one of the challenges, of course, is that you could white-label this and slap whatever logo you wanted on the top, and there were a lot of ‘security consultancies' that use the term incredibly… lightly, that would just run a Nessus report, drop off the thick print out. “Here's the 800 things you need to fix. Pay me.” And wander on off into the sunset.And when you have 800 things you need to fix, you fix none of them. And they would just sit there and atrophy on the shelf. Not to say that all those things weren't valid findings, but you know, the whole, you're using an esoteric, slightly deprecated TLS algorithm on one of your back-end services, versus your Elasticsearch database does not have a password set. Like, there are different levels of concern here. And that is the problem.Anna: Yeah. That is in fact one of the problems we're aggressively trying to solve, right? So, because we see so much of the data, we're actually able to piece together a lot of context to gives you a sense of risk, right? So, instead of showing all the data to the customer—the customer can see it if they want; like, it's all in there, you can look at it—one of the things we're really trying to do is collect enough information about the finding or the event or the vulnerability or whatever, so we can kind of tell you what to do.For example, one you can do this is super basic, but if you're looking at a specific vulnerability, like, let's say it's like Log4j or whatever, you type it in, and you can see all your systems affected by this thing, right? Then you can, in the same tool, like, click to the other tab, and you can see events associated with this vulnerability. So, if you can see the systems that the vulnerability is on and you can see there's weird activity on those systems, right? So, if you're trying to triage some weird thing in your environment, during the Log4j disaster, it's very easy for you to be like, “Huh. Okay, these are the relevant systems. This is the vulnerability. Like, here's all that I know about this stuff.”So, we kind of try to simplify as much as possible—my design team uses the word ‘easify,' which I love; it's a great word—to easify, the experience of the end-user so that they can get to whatever it is they're trying to do today. Like, what can I do today to make my company more secure as quickly as possible? So, that is sort of our goal. And all this huge wealth of information we gather, we try to package for the users in a way that is, in fact, digestible. And not just like, “Here's a deluge of suffering,” like, “Look.” [laugh]. You know?Corey: This is definitely complicated in the environment I tend to operate in which is almost purely AWS. How much more complex is get when people start looking into the multi-cloud story, or hybrid environments where they have data center is talking to things within AWS? Because then it's not just the expanded footprint, but the entire security model works slightly differently in all of those different environments as well, and it feels like that is not a terrific strategy.Anna: Yeah, this is tough. My feelings on multi-cloud are mostly negative, actually.Corey: Oh, thank goodness. It's not just me.Anna: I was going to say that, like, multi-cloud is not a strategy; it's just something that happens to you.Corey: Same with hybrid. No one plans to do hybrid. They start doing a cloud migration, realize halfway through some things are really hard to move, give up, plant the flag, declare victory, and now it's called hybrid.Anna: Basically. But my position—and again, as an analyst, you kind of, I think, end up in this position, you just have a lot of sympathy for the poor people who are just trying to get these stupid systems to run. And so I kind of understand that, like, nothing's ideal, and we're just going to have to work with it. So multi-cloud, I think is one of those things where it's not really ideal, we just have to work with it. There's certainly advantages to it, like, there's presumably some level of mythical redundancy or whatever. I don't know.But the reality is that if you're trying to secure a pile of junk in Azure and a pile of junk in AWS, like, it'd be nice if you had, like, one tool that told you what to do with both piles of junk, and sometimes we do do that. And in fact, it's very difficult to do that if you're not a third-party tool because if you're AWS, you don't have much incentive to, like, tell people how to secure Azure, right? So, any tool in the category of, like, third-party CSPM—Gartner calls them CWPP—kind of, cloud security is attempting to span those clouds because they always have to be relevant, otherwise, like, what's the point, right?Corey: Well, I would argue cynically there's also the VC model, where, “Oh, great. If we cover multiple cloud providers, that doubles or triples our potential addressable market.” And, okay, great, I don't have those constraints, which is why I tend to focus on one cloud provider where I tend to see the problems I know how to solve as opposed to trying to conquer the world. I guess I have my bias on that one.Anna: Fair. But there's—I think the barrier to entry is lower as a security vendor, right? Especially if you're doing things like CSPMs. Take an example. So, if you're looking at compliance requirements, right, if your team understands, like, what it means to be compliant with PCI, you know, like, [line three 00:28:14] or whatever, you can apply that to Azure and Amazon fairly trivially, and be like, “Okay, well, here's how I check in Azure, and here's how I check in Amazon,” right?So, it's not very difficult to, I think, engineer that once you understand the basic premise of what you're trying to accomplish. It does become complicated as you're trying to deal with more and more different cloud services. Again, if you're kind of trying to be a cloud security company, you almost have no choice. Like, you have to either say, “I'm only doing this for AWS,” which is kind of a weird thing to do because they're kind of doing their own half-baked thing already, or I have to do this for everybody. And so most default to doing it for everybody.Whether they do it equally well, for everybody, I don't know. From our perspective, like, there's clearly a roadmap, so we have done one of them first and then one of them second and one of the third, and so I guarantee you that we're better in some than others. So, I think you're going to have pluses and minuses no matter what you do, but ultimately what you're looking for is coverage of the tool's capabilities, and whether or not you have a program that is going to leverage that tool, right? And then you can check the boxes of like, “Okay. Does it do the AWS thing? Does it do this other AWS thing? Does it do this Azure thing?”Corey: I really appreciate your taking the time out of your day to speak with me. We're going to throw a link to the report itself in the [show notes 00:29:23], but other than that, if people want to learn more about how you view these things, where's the best place to find you?Anna: I am—rarely—but on Twitter at @aabelak. I am also on LinkedIn like everybody else, and in the worst case, you could find me by email, at anna.belak@sysdig.com.Corey: And we will of course put links to that in the [show notes 00:29:44]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I appreciate it.Anna: Thanks for having me, Corey. It's been fun.Corey: Anna Belak, Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is streaming on the cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling me not only why this entire approach to security is awful and doomed to fail, but also what booth number I can find you at this year's RSA Conference.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

I am so excited to share today's episode as it's the first of a new, experimental limited series!   One of the things I love the most about group coaching is the way that one person's realisation can have a huge impact on the people who witness it. This collective processing that happens allows us to reach parts of ourselves we otherwise may not have found.   With this new series, I'll be coaching someone live in each episode, talking through one question that they've brought to the table until we reach a new insight.   Today, I'm coaching Anna Le Grange, a lactation consultant who helps families and professionals navigate their way through the world of breastfeeding.   Anna's question: 'How do I keep growing my business and sustaining it during a huge life change?' Anna is specifically moving abroad, but Anna's question could really apply to any huge life event… or even just the constantly changing current world (see the past few years).   We start our chat with a course that Anna's reluctant to let go of, exploring whether it's a good idea to discontinue an offer in order to allow for growth… even if that means a momentary dip in income.   This leads down the path of how to fill your business with things that you're in alignment with, and the stories that keep us from growing into this space. We talk panic around money, the hit of shame your ego takes when things are not going well in your business, and the need for comfort and security that might lead to scarcity… and ways to break free of it all.   I've absolutely loved making this series, and send a huge thanks to Anna for kicking it off with me!   You can find Anna at: https://mammalia.co.uk/     REFERENCES Rich Litvin, 1 Insight (Podcast)     QUOTES RAY: “So one of the things I'd really encourage you to do… is to get really clear on the numbers. In your business and in your family. One of the things that people don't do enough of is we feel that we need something, but we don't check if we actually, physically need it.”   ANNA: “It's more about my ego, you know? What does it say about me if my business isn't growing from last year? What does that mean about who I am and where I've got to in business over four/ five years?”   RAY: “If you think of that kind of energy you're putting into it, it's: ‘I'm carrying on with this because I'm not capable of creating that money elsewhere.' And that is not the kind of bold version of yourself that I know you created your whole business with. That was much more like: ‘there's nothing like this in the world and I'm going to go out and do it.'   RAY: “I would love for you to get super clear on what success means to you. Cause it feels to me like you've got a bit of cognitive dissonance about it. On one hand you're like, I don't think success is just money. And yet, I feel unsuccessful because I'm not making enough money.”   RAY: “What I do now with the younger version of me- this one's sort of like maybe like nine- literally in my head, I crouch down. And say yeah, it's okay. Adult me is here. I've got this. You're not the one in charge of this bit. And we have that chat.”   RAY: “Look at where you're making a decision from. Is it from: ‘This would be exciting? This feels expansive'. Or is this from: ‘I cant.'

Topher Morrison has tips aplenty when it comes to authors getting booked to speak and it makes sense: he is, after all, the founder of Personofi, a firm that specializes in brand messaging for small business owners. He is the author of four best-selling books and was voted one of the top 10 business speakers in Tampa Bay. His extensive speaking career, spanning over the past 30 years, has earned him a global reputation as an expert in mass communication and influence. He has spoken for top execs with American Express, Microsoft and Google, just to name a few. In this episode, he shared so many gems I'd never heard before—including where authors who have never spoken before can get experience for a reel, the importance of a one-sheet, how to make a book into a speech by using the vignettes in it, why the opening of the speech should not be the same as your first chapter and how to sell your book while speaking without sounding like a douche. WANT 7 DAYS OF WRITING TIPS? GO TO WWW.YOURBOOKWRITINGTIPS.COM TRANSCRIPT: Anna: Okay Topher, thank you so much for coming to chat with me today. Topher: I am stoked. It's been first off way too long since we've chatted anyway. When did we meet each other, 10 years ago, maybe longer? Anna: Hold on. It wasn't quite 10 years ago, but this is sort of an awesome thing. I was thinking about it because there's a comedian that I used to know pretty well and I haven't seen him since then. I think it was John Heffron, right? Topher: John Heffron. We are still good buds. Yes. That's how I met you. Anna: But I think what happened is I saw him tweet about you. Or he told me directly. He said, "I know this guy, I work with this guy who's the best speaking coach." And I reach out to you and you were so sweet. And you said, "I'm going to be in LA. I'll just work with you." Or maybe you even said, "I'll come to LA." Topher: I can't remember. Anna: And I remember because I had this office at WeWork and you worked with me and you really helped me restructure a talk that I had and deliver it. And you are just such a sweet, sweet person and so good at what you do. Topher: Thanks. Anna: I'm really happy that you're here to talk about something I've never talked about on the podcast and my listeners are very much interested in, which is how do you convert a book into a talk? And how do you use the fact that you're an author to get booked as a speaker? So let's actually do it backward. Because as I always say, if there are two people that a booker is considering, and they're equal, but one has a book, they're always going to book the author. Tell me about that. Topher: Every single time they will pick the published author over the unpublished author even if the other speaker is a better speaker and has a better demo reel and is more entertaining. They will almost always, I guess I should probably preserve that, not be so hyperbolic, but they will almost always pick the author. Because there is this perceived notion in society that authors are experts. And that's probably rightly earned as well. At least if it's a good book, they probably are an expert in it and they took a long time, you know, you've written a book, it ain't easy. It's hard. So by the time somebody's gone through all that process, they are probably an expert. But it's a false assumption, but it is a societal assumption that the authors are the experts. Yeah. Anna: Yes. It's why we do what we do. Because a lot of our clients are experts, but nobody knows that because they've sort of been working towards their expertise, doing their 10,000 hours of work, and they need that book to show the world. Topher: Yeah, they're working on their craft. They're the world's best-kept secret because they're an expert in it and they are bonafide phenomenal and they don't have the book. And there's just no social proof. In fact, the scary part is that, especially in today's society, because publishing has become such a mainstream thing, nowadays the question people get is, "Have you written a book?" And you know, if somebody ever asked you, "Well, do you have any books? Have you written any book on it?" you know you're six months or a year behind if people are asking if you have a book and you don't. You definitely want to have one, no doubt about it. And the only anything better than having one is having two or three or four. Anna: Or eight like me, right. Topher: Yeah. Ooh. Anna: And, oftentimes bookers are quite excited to have a signing. So I think that that's... And/or a lot of speakers will gift their book or they'll say basically, "Hey, if you buy 200 copies, you don't have to pay me." Tell me a little bit about how that works. Topher: Yeah. So there are several different packages that you can offer as a speaker when you have a book, which is just what you just said. You have your speaking fee and then you will gift a certain number of books. Or you could have bought my book and I will speak for free. And something people might say, "Well, why is that important?" Because the monies to buy the books come out of a different account than the money to pay the speakers in large corporations. So they may have already blown their budget on their conference for their speakers, but yet they still have money in their budget for swag bags. And by the way, that's a great way to say, "We'll get the books in time for you to put them in your swag bags," and they love that as well. So it comes out of a different purse. And so, while you may have a budget that you have to stay within the speaker fees, the book fees could be added. And it's just a great way for you to have more flexibility and still get maximum dollars from that event. Anna: That's so interesting. I've never thought about that. And then, of course, if you have a business and let's say you one client is worth anywhere from a thousand dollars to a hundred thousand dollars, it is well worth the investment in the $3 a book or whatever it's going to cost for you to gift that. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Although, definitely don't gift it first, sell it first. And then if they don't buy, then go down to hard costs. And then if they don't buy, then you can gift. Start off with the price that makes you the most amount of money, obviously. Because like I said, sometimes these big corporations don't bat an eye. Remember this, the one thing I love to tell people when they're thinking about charging their speaking fees and like, "Oh, how much is the right fee and blah, blah, blah, blah," remember that the bar tab at a conference for a large corporation will outweigh your speaking fee by at least five times, at least five times. Just keep that in mind. It may seem like a big fee for us when we charge it. It is a drop in the bucket for these large corporations that are hosting and spending $300,000, a half million, $2 million, $10 million on their annual conferences. A $10,000 or a $20,000 speaking fee is nothing for these companies. Anna: Let's say I'm a first-time author. And my book, maybe I feel, because I hear people say this, not qualified to be an expert, even though I have all this hard-earned personal experience, but I don't have a master's degree or I don't have whatever, and I go, "Okay, I want to be a speaker." How do I start? Topher: Okay. And you don't have a book or you do have a book? Anna: You do have a book. You have your first book and you're like, "Okay, here we go with speaking. What do I do?" Topher: Perfect. Well, at the risk of sounding self-promotional, hire a speaking coach for one, because you could have the best information in the world and if you don't know how to present it in a palatable way, they're never going to book you back. So you absolutely want to do that. And by the way, you should probably get a media coach as well, because you're going to be asked to speak on TV or on the radio. And if you've never been in front of a camera or you've never had a microphone shoved in front of your face, it can be quite intimidating. Anna, you know this. You've done this for years. So for you, it's second nature. But if you can recall back to that first time you were on the bright lights in the camera, it's unnerving, right? And so you could have all the... The natural law of memory, it is inhibited when you are relaxed. It is enhanced when you're relaxed, it's inhibited when you're stressed. And nothing can cause more stress to a new time author than is the first time they're on a show. You could forget your damn name when you're on TV. So hire a media coach for sure or a speech coach. Topher: But beyond that, and I'm not trying to push my services either, I'm really not. What I'm saying, though, is that the delivery is as important as the knowledge. And that's the point that I want to make. Absolutely. Yeah. So you want to make sure you have that. Then once you do that, so the question is you're a new time... You want to break into the speaking gig, you need to have a one-sheet. It is the most important marketing piece for a speaker. It's more important than a sizzle reel, by the way, is the one sheet. The one-sheet is exactly what it sounds like. It's one piece of paper. It probably has your picture. It has your brief bio. It has a highlight of what you are going to learn in the keynote or one of the takeaways that the audience will get. And it probably has some quotes from people that are impressed by you that have some name notoriety that people if they were to see those quotes who go, "Well, if this person's saying they're good, they must be amazing." That's really all it is. Topher: And oftentimes, the one-sheet will make a bigger impact than the sizzle reel. Because the sizzle reel requires a computer to watch. And keep in mind, sometimes these board meetings where you've got the planner and you've got the board and they're all sitting around, they don't have time to sit there and watch 15 different speaker reels. So you're lucky if they'll watch it. They probably won't. What they're going to do is they're going to refer to the person who found you, who's [inaudible 00:09:02] and saying, "Hey, this is a great speaker. Here's their one sheet." And they look at it and they go, "Yeah, they look like they're smart. I like the photo. It was a professional headshot. It doesn't look like it's a stupid selfie." By the way, also be sure that you're investing in a good professional one sheet. And it just gives a quick highlight. That's oftentimes all they make the decision. They don't need to see the sizzle reel. Anna: I'm curious, so they'll book speakers without seeing how they speak. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. It depends. If you were referred to them, almost always they don't need to see the sizzle reel. If you're the one knocking on their door, doing the Oliver Twist, "Please sir, may I have a cup of porridge," then yeah, you might need to get them to watch the sizzle reel to know that you're good. But for the most part, you want to get your message out to as many people as possible so people who are on those committees hear about you and then they come to the committee and they go, "Oh my God, I saw this person on YouTube," or, "I saw this person on a podcast," or, "I heard this person on a podcast. They were amazing. I think they'd be great for our presentation." It can literally boil down to that. And they're like, "Yeah, good. Let's get them booked." Anna: Okay, but so then, and I remember how I solved this, here's the problem, you go, "Okay, I want to get booked. I don't have a sizzle reel because I've never spoken." So how do you get around that? Topher: Okay. Well, there are a couple of things. Nowadays, at the risk of aging myself, back in my day, it was hard to get video production. But nowadays, for crying out loud, you've got a 4k camera on your phone. You can set something up. It doesn't have to matter. Have a small event at your house if you have to, invite some people over. If you don't have a nice house, go to your friend's house who's got a nice house, I don't care. And do a quick presentation. Have it set up. The only thing that I'd recommend is that if you're going to set up an iPhone or a smartphone, don't use the microphone. As powerful as phones are in their high definition, 4k recording quality, they still suck when it comes to the recording of audio. So go get one... Nowadays, by the way, it used to be like an $800 lapel mic you'd have to get, nowadays, you can get it for 50 bucks, you can get these wireless lapel mics that plug right into your phone, you clip them, and the sound is just impeccable. It's beautiful. And just do something like that just so they know that when you get up in front of people, you're not going to stumble and fall and make a fool of yourself. It can literally be something as unofficial as that. Topher: But also, it's not that hard to get booked to speak nowadays. There are so many organizations from One Million Cups up to your chambers of commerce, all of the animal clubs, the Elks, the Moose, the Eagles, whatever. Those people are starving for speakers to come in. And just reach out to all of the local chapters, all of the local organizations that are in some level of professionalism and just say, "Hey, you know what? I've just published my first book. It's on this topic. And I think that your audience might benefit from it. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm just trying to get some exposure and some experience speaking in front of the stage. I would love to come out to your group and give them a 20 minute or a 30 minute or a 15-minute presentation," whatever it is that your keynote is, "And there's no catch. There's no sales pitch. I just want permission to record it so I can improve and do better later." And honestly, you could book yourself up a month straight with local chapters for organizations that are just looking for people to come out and speak to their audiences. Anna: That's an amazing, amazing tip. So let's say I have my book. How do I make my book into a speech? Topher: Okay. Remind me, by the way, before we get off this call, to share with your listeners some techniques on how to sell the hell out of their books when they speak without being a salesy, douche-baggy guy. So remind me to do that. Anna: Love it. Topher: So what your question was, how do you turn the book into a speech? So let's first break down what a speech comprises. A speech, the best analogy that I can give, and I'm going to roll credits to this, by the way, to a gentleman by the name of Bill Gove. Now, I did not learn directly from Bill. I learned from his mentee, which is a guy named Steve Seebold, and he's a good friend of mine. And Bill Gove by the way, is kind of like the grandfather of motivational speaking. He is the guy who started it all. All of the great speakers that we admire love today, most of them are trained by this guy named Bill Gove, 30, 40 years ago. And he had it so well. He said, "A keynote speech is nothing but..." I'm paraphrasing his statements here, "A keynote speech is nothing but a concert in spoken word." So you want to have, just like if you were to go to a concert, you want to have your songs rehearsed. You want to be able to know in what order those songs are going to be played. And you want to have practiced those songs so well that if something were to happen on stage, it wouldn't throw your game off. In fact, you could even improvise and play around with that a little bit and make it look like it's effortless. Topher: So think of your speech as a concert in spoken word. And your concert is broken down into short little songs. Yours are vignettes. And a great speech is made up of short little vignettes, no more than five minutes apiece, as short as 30 seconds apiece. And they are stacked together one after another, in whatever order makes the most sense for the flow and the feel of the concert, just like a concert. You want to start off with something dynamic, but not your best hit. You want to start off with something that just kind of warms up the crowd. And then you want to build up. And then at some point in time, you need to slow down and you need to relax and you got to put the ballad on. Because you can't have a concert that's just loud, nonstop. And then after the slow, then you got to build it back up again. And presentations have that same flow. I call it the charisma pattern, by the way, which is that there is a cadence to a presentation, which is you start off at a medium pace, you work up into a louder, faster pace, and then as you get louder and faster, then you drop it down to something slow and soft. Anna: It's interesting because a book, the best, the most effective way to do a memoir is to have your first two chapters be the bottom, the most dramatic, and then you move into childhood so that doesn't... And then you start going chronologically. And then around chapter eight, you catch up to whatever that first chapter was. And that's not what you do with speaking. Topher: No. Yeah. So interestingly enough, the same strategies and skills that make a great book a great book, do not translate into what makes a great presentation. Nor do great strategies and skills as a speaker in a live audience translate to being a great speaker on camera as well. There are differences between all of those things. But there are different environments. I'm glad that you brought that up. It makes a big difference. With the presentation, you don't want to start off with your best. You want to just kind of warm up the crowd a little bit. Because let's face it, they're still sussing you out. If they bought your book, at some level, they're kind of convinced. But remember, buying a book is this person has something I need and I want to hear it. But in a presentation and a keynote, it's completely the opposite. It's, "Who is this yahoo, and why do I have to sit here and listen to them speak?" Totally different market. So you kind of got to win them over. And if you go in too hard, too fast, you're like that guy at the bar who's just hitting on the girls a little bit too fast and too hard. Slow your roll, cowboy. Just bring it down a notch or two. Be cool. Anna: Yeah. You don't walk up and propose. Topher: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe you don't even walk up. Maybe you just sit there and just let them come to you. You got to know your game, right? Anna: Look at that. And so how do you know, do you need 10 anecdotes? How many do you need? Let's say this is a 10-minute speech. Do you need 10 anecdotes? Topher: Sure. Fantastic. Yeah. Listen, if you could do 10, I'll call them vignettes, because that's my language, but an anecdote is the same thing, yep, 10 anecdotes, 10 vignettes in 10 minutes would be an unbelievably awesome speech. Most people are not that well-rehearsed. They could maybe get two to three vignettes out in a 10-minute speech. Only a pro could do 10 in 10 minutes. And I always think back to, and I'm sure you've heard this quote, I believe it was Mark Twain, who said, "I apologize for not writing a shorter speech. I didn't have time." Or something to that effect. I'm sorry it was so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one, or something like that. Anna: It's been attributed to so many people. Allegedly, it was a note to his wife, and who knows who he is. And it said, "I wanted to write you a short note. I wanted to..." Oh, you know. Yeah. That basically it's harder to do short than it is long is the point. Topher: Yeah, yeah. You get the idea. Same thing with the presentation. If I just wanted to tell some ideas and I didn't have them rehearsed, I would ramble on and on, I would get derailed, I would come back and I would be disheveled. And I would be like, "La, la, la, la." But on a keynote, you cannot do that. You have to have everything you're going to say rehearsed and prepared so you know how to do it. Now, the question is how many vignettes do I need for an amount of time? What I would say to that is this, it's not so much how many vignettes for a certain amount of time, it's just that do you know how much time each vignette takes? Topher: So create a vignette book with all the different stories that you have. And by the way, go into your book. This is back to your original question, how do you convert a book into a keynote? You take the best stories in your book. You bring them out of the book and you say, "Okay, what are the lessons or the big takeaways that this story in my book reveals?" And by the way, you could twist your stories just slightly to focus on something just slightly different. And one story you could have 10 or 15 different takeaways that you would use depending upon the audience that you're speaking with. So for example, oftentimes you'll hear keynote speakers, they'll say something like, "And we will customize the presentation to your audience." They don't. The good ones don't anyway. But what they do is they customize the takeaways to the audience, but the stories are always the same. And they're repeated the exact same way every single time with the right inflection because it's a song in spoken word. You got to practice it. But you do want to know what those takeaways and those lessons are. Topher: And then what I do is when somebody books me, I say, "Okay, well what are the current challenges that your company's dealing with? What are the things, what are the takeaways that your audience wants?" And then when they give those to me, then I go, "Okay, now what stories do I have that would fit into that category?" And then I'll apply that story to that takeaway. And then I just simply go, "All right, well, this is the number of takeaways," and I add up, this is a three-minute speech, this is a five-minute speech, this is a 30-second speech. And I add them all together and then I've got my presentation length. Now, sometimes though, your committees, your speaking committees, will go, "We just want them motivated. We just want them to be grateful that they're here at the conference. That's fine. We just want them having fun." "Okay, good. Then leave it up to me and I'll do my thing. How much time do you want me to speak?' And they'll say 45 minutes. And then you go, "Great." And then you go through and you put your song list together of all your different vignettes that add up to 45 minutes. Topher: Now, here's the cool thing about breaking a speech down into little bite-size vignettes. I have never in the history of speaking professionally in over 30 years, I have never, ever shown up for a keynote presentation where they have said, "Remember the agreed-upon time we asked you, that's exactly how much time we want you to speak." It has never ever, ever gone that way. This is always what happens. Once again, I'm speaking a little hyperbolic. I'm sure that I had one or two, but I just don't remember them. Topher: This is what normally will happen when somebody books you to speak. They'll come up to you backstage, usually five minutes before you're ready to go on, and they'll say something like this, they'll go, "Our next speaker is stuck at the airport. They're not going to be here. I know this is really last minute. I'm so sorry to ask this. I know we only asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but could you speak for 55 minutes?" or, "Could you speak for an hour and 15 minutes? If we have to pay you more, we will." By the way, they will say that too. But if they don't offer, by the way, that's fine. Just be cool. And they'll go, "Can you stretch it out to an hour and 15 minutes?" And then you go, "Absolutely. No problem. Because you know you've got a bank of other stories that didn't make the cut and you're just going to add a couple more of them in, not a big deal. Topher: Most commonly, though, that's not what's going to happen. Most commonly, they're going to come to you five minutes before your presentation and go, "Hey, I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but the vice president just showed up and he's on a tight deadline. He's got to get on a plane. He wants to get on stage a little bit of earlier. I hate to do this to you. I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes. Could you cut your presentation down to 30 minutes?" That happens, I'm going to say that probably happens, and I'm not exaggerating 90-plus percent of the time that's what will happen. And then you smile and you go, "Absolutely, no problem." You don't throw a fit because now you just know, "I'm going to cut a few songs out of my playlist and I'm going to get it down to 30." Whereas if you design a 45-minute presentation that has a beginning and a middle, and then I'm going to tell them what I'm going to tell them, I'm going to tell them and I'm going to tell them what I'm told them, the old Dale Carnegie speech stuff, which is just dead and done now, that doesn't work. Because now what do you? Do you tell the promoter, "No, I'm sorry. My presentation is 45 minutes. I have to do 45." Topher: No, what'll end up happening is you go, "Okay," and then you're like, "How do I speak really fast to get it done?" And then you end up going over and you piss off the promoter and they never bring you back. So yeah, take your best stories out of your book, make a list of all the different lessons or takeaways that could come from them. Create your vignette book, which is all a different story. And by the way, you might have five different stories for one point. That's okay too because you know what? They might have loved that point so much you need to drive it home again, and then you have another story as well. But that's the most time-consuming and professional way to build a speech from a book. Take your best stories, pull out the takeaways, build it based upon the takeaways and the time. Anna: And is it have a 10-minute, a 20-minute, and a 40-minute version? Do you think that's- Topher: No. I think you should just have 30-second to five-minute vignettes. And then when somebody books you, you go, "Oh, I got a 15-minute speech? I'm going to pull out my three best five-minute vignettes," or, "I'm going to pull out my four best three and a half-minute vignettes." And then you just add them up that way. Yeah. If you do it that way, you'll be golden. But that takes practice. It takes preparation. And unfortunately, most people... And by the way, this is just the mark between a professional speaker and a professional who speaks, there's a difference there. The professional who speaks is working on their slide presentation the night before. The professional speaker doesn't even deal with slides because he knows that they're a hassle and is going to entertain the audience with their stories anyway. Topher: So a couple of other things. The biggest misconception that I think people make that aren't professional speakers that have been asked to speak and it's their first keynote presentation and they're nervous about it, they think that they need to wow the audience with all of this great information and you're going to change their minds and their hearts and their lives with this dialogue. I think getting in perspective what it is that the keynote speaker does is very helpful. Your job, in my opinion, and I think if you were to talk to most professional speakers, people who run the circuit and they do this for a living, I think that most would probably agree, your job is not to change their lives in 45 minutes. Your job is to entertain the crap out of them for 45 minutes. Get them to laugh, get them to cry, get them to feel, get them to emote. Entertain them for 45 minutes. Don't try to change their lives. Topher: Which means you don't need a bunch of slides. You don't need a bunch of bullet points. You're not teaching them strategies and techniques and steps and processes. You're simply telling them stories and entertaining them. And if you do that, think about entertainment, emotion, don't worry about the content, don't worry about having them walk away with three successful strategies. Most people aren't taking notes anyway. Remember, they didn't even know who you were five minutes before you got on stage. So don't think that they're sitting there with baited breath and a pen and paper going, "Entertain me with your amazing words." They're just not going to be there. And I will say this, these smartphones have become the world's best feedback tool for speakers, because you will know exactly how good you are as a speaker based upon how many blue lights you see, glowing faces from the audience. Because they'll be on their phone. If you can see phones lighting up, you know you've lost them. Because they're, "Ah, screw this guy. I'm going to check my text messages now." And so they start- Anna: That's the worst. Topher: It is the worst. Yeah. Anna: But, speaking of the phone, I will say what I do to prep is I do it into my phone, then I listen, then I do practice again, then I listen again, then I practice again, then I listen again. I find listening when I'm practicing really, really as helpful as the practice. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Now I will tell you this, by the way, technology has made our job so much easier as well. There's a difference between... By the way, as an author, everybody knows this, the typed word is different than the spoken word. If you just transcribe audio into a book, it's an average book. I hope I don't offend some of your readers, your listers. Anna: Yeah, they know that. Topher: Yeah. Don't transcribe your work. It just doesn't sound... It doesn't translate. Well, guess what? It doesn't translate the other way as well. You don't want to sit there and recite or memorize your book because that's not human speech as well. But I do believe that there is a need for a script when you're starting your presentation in your rehearsal. So one of the best strategies right now is to use otter.ai, I think is that software. Holy heck, that thing is incredibly good. So just hit record, start telling your stories and talking, and then it'll transcribe for you. And then you go through. And the strategy that I like is to take three highlighters, a green highlighter, a yellow highlighter, and a red highlighter. Topher: And I go through the script after it's been transcribed, and I read through and I highlight red, yellow, green, red is unnecessary dribble, yellow is, "I like it if I have time," and green is, "This is so good I have to keep it in the presentation." And go through the entire speech and just highlight it red, yellow, green, red, yellow, green. And if you're like me and you're being honest, you'll have mostly red, a lot of yellow, and just a few greens. When you're just talking a story out, it'll take 20 minutes sometimes. And you can edit that down to a two-minute story if you give it the time and the attention that it needs, for sure. Anna: So great. We have to get close to wrapping up. So how do you sell that book from the stage without sounding douchey? Topher: Yeah. Okay. I learned this technique from a guy named Tom Antion. He is one of the few people that when he sends me spam email, I read it because the man just generally makes me laugh. His sales copy is just hilarious. And this was his technique. In fact, I think he had a presentation called How to Sell from the Stage Without Being a Douchebag, I think is what it was called. I was like, "I love this guy already." Here's the technique. You have on stage your book, but you're not going to hold it up and say it's for sale or anything like that. All you do is you take one small piece from your book which is a really golden gem, and you just pick it up and you go, "Let me just read something for you real quick." And then you open it and you just read 2, 3, 4 lines, that's it. And just read it, and you set it down. You can say, "I just want to read something from my book." You can say that. But you just read it. Topher: But you're not saying it's for sale. You're not saying it's $29.95, but today you can buy a copy for $10. You don't say any of that stuff. You just read one paragraph out of your book and then you set it down, respectfully, it's a nice piece of art. Set it down. Yep. Don't just throw it off to the side. Set it down. And then you continue with your presentation. That's it. That's all you do. You just read one small... And what happens is people get obsessed. They're like, "I loved what he just read," and they make this assumption, "The rest of the book must be just as good." And they want to buy it. Yeah. And I will tell you, literally, I saw my book sales, I'm not exaggerating, they probably jumped 60%, maybe more. I remember calling Tom going, "Tom, you are a genius. I tried that." And every person I've told that to, they do this technique and they're like, "People were running into the back to buy my book." I'm like, "Yeah, I can't even really explain it other than I think they feel that was so profound, the rest of the book must be just as profound." Anna: And you're doing that thing where you're closing the loop, like how marketing people will talk about how you sort of give the first part so that people are psychologically very invested in whatever the ending is. Topher: Yeah. Well actually, let's talk about that. Because once again, going back to the biggest mistake people make because they want to give, give, give, give, give, just give so much value, so much content, so much information, if you have 10 steps to transforming your life, don't try to talk about all 10 steps. But here's what you could do. You could say something like this. You could say something to the effect of, "For the past 25 years, I've been trying to narrow down what it takes to succeed in speaking into the most succinct, small, and easy to get patterns. And I've discovered that there are five things, that if every speaker does these five things, they will hands down get standing ovations, sell books at the back of the room without having to sell it. And out of those five, here's the one that I want to talk about today." Anna: Oh, that's so good. Topher: Right. And now, you didn't say, "But we don't have time to go through all," or you say, "Here's five, but I'm only going to give you one today. But if you want to buy the others, you can." No, you just say, "There are five things. And here's the one that I think is the most relevant today." You make it like, "I picked this one just for you guys." And what a beautiful open loop. They want to know what the other ones are. And by the way, maybe that chapter one, that's that good thing, the big, whatever your 10 steps are, that's the one you... Be the good one. Anna: Well, Topher, this has been absolutely fantastic. Tell people how they can reach you. And this is reaching you for help converting their book into a speech as well as help training. Topher: Yeah, sure. They can go to tophermorrison.com. That's probably the easiest way to do it. Tophermorrison.com. Yeah. And I have a book on public speaking. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. I get to say I wrote the book on public speaking. Not being self-aggrandizing, it's just the name of the book. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. So they can go to their Amazon and get that if they want to as well. Yeah. But listen, I've got tons of YouTube videos for free. Listen, they don't have to buy anything. They can get a lot of my stuff for free. They just go to YouTube and search for my name. Anna: Except of course, by giving out these gems, you were doing exactly what you advise people to do in a speech, which is giving the gem so that they go, "Well, God, booking him and reading that book must just be even better."  Topher: Listen, hey, I'm a squirrel trying to get a nut just like everybody else. So I'd be honored if somebody feels so inspired and they would like to do business with me. I would love that. But believe me, I'm just here because I think the world of you. I remember meeting you so many years ago and had such a blast with you. For you to reach back out to me so many years, I was just like, "Oh, this just made my day." I was just thrilled that you reached out. You made my day. Anna: You're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. And you know, you listeners, thank you so much for listening. I will talk to you next week. RELATED EPISODES How Do I Use My Book to Get Speaking Gigs? How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran Jess Lahey on Influencer Endorsements and Much More

Welcome to February 5th, 2022 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate predicting the unpredictable and a hall pass for your inner child.  Until the 1860s, if people wanted to know what the weather would be, they had to rely on looking at the skies or using “weather wisdom”—a knowledge of patterns they'd gained over the years. This method was very popular with sailors and farmers, who paid special attention to wind and temperature changes. It was inexact, but necessary. Then came British admiral Robert FitzRoy, who established the Meteorological Department of the Board of Trade. The Met, as it was known, would collect data on wind speed and storm conditions around the British coast, then deliver them via telegraph from one port to another. This system warned sailors and fishermen of bad weather and saved many lives. On National Weatherperson's Day, we celebrate the people who give us a heads up on weather conditions and also something to gripe about when the predictions are off. Anna: Hey Marlo, ever had ice cream for breakfast? Marlo: Is that a thing? Anna: It is at my house. I consider Ben & Jerry's Chunky Monkey a breakfast combo of banana ice cream, walnuts and chocolate. What flavor would you eat for breakfast? Marlo: On Ice Cream For Breakfast Day, celebrate your inner child who has had enough of the healthy stuff. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

INTRODUCTION:Entwine was developed by Anna, a breast cancer survivor, for people with a low sex drive, celibates, and those who avoid sex due to physical pain.Because of her treatment, sex became uncomfortable both physically and emotionally. After her divorce, she found it difficult and intimidating to re-enter the dating scene out of fear of rejection from those that may not understand her situation.  She soon realized that many of the dating apps available had similarities; none of them offered an opportunity to find someone who had similar sexual limitations.She found herself in a space that she soon discovered many others were in – single and looking for companionship.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      A Dating App for People with Sexual Dysfunction·      Broken Vaginas·      Surviving Breast Cancer·      Erectile Dysfunction·      The Struggles of Starting an App·      Self Esteem Related to Sexual Limitations·      Sexual Implications for Veterans·      The Value Men Place on Sexual Performance·      Reassessing Our Value Systems CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website: https://www.entwinedating.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/entwinedatingIG: https://www.instagram.com/entwine_dating/Twitter: https://twitter.com/entwinedatingYouTube: https://bit.ly/3J552FzLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3uqBdLk  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com ·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org ·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to another installment of the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast. I'm your host. De'Vannon Hubert. And I am so thankful that you are with me again on today. So on today's episode, I'm talking with a woman by the name of Anna Leonarda. She's a breast cancer survivor, and she's gifted the world with a dating app called Entwine that's E N T W I N E. Now this app is for those who may not be able to, or prefer not to fully engage in sexual intercourse.[00:01:00] Now we all know what a big deal sexual dysfunction is in the world today. You know, sometimes our bodies just don't do what we want them to do. Now, in this episode, we're going to talk about. Sexual implications for veterans, we're talking about how self-esteem can be related to sexual limitations. And we're also going to cover things like the value men and place on sexual performance, which is a huge deal in and of itself.Pay close attention to this episode, stay tuned because I think you're going to get a lot out of it.Anna uh, you bad-ass bitch shoe. Are you today? Anna: Perfect. How are you doingDe'Vannon: I'm fam fucking tastic. My new year is off to a phenomenal fucking start. My health is great. My wealth is great. My mind is great. My cats are great. My boyfriend's great. My gardens. Great. Everything's great. Anna: Great [00:02:00] Great to hear.De'Vannon: So I was looking forward to this here episode because we are going to talk about vaginas in. How they can be broken and everything. And you created a dating app called in twine, which we're going to really get into. And of course, all of this information will be in the show we notes as they always are. You created an app specifically centered for people who have a sexual dysfunction. Be it, be it men with erectile dysfunction women with, as you coin, it broke vaginas. She said that I can say that so she can get away with it. Anna: Yeah.De'Vannon: And so, so it's a really cool app that you've made in a service that you're now offering to the public. But before we go down that delicious path, and we're going to talk about you, you, you, you, you, and what led you to this here. And so any opening words you have for the world. Anna: Just [00:03:00] get ready for my broken vagina story. definitely unique.De'Vannon: So I say, well, wait, so we've got to work in, reverse it for a little bit. So I read about when I was researching you or read that you had you're a breast cancer survivor. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: So I want you to talk to me about what the emotions were like, like, walk me through your emotions. When you found out you got this diagnosis, do you remember where you were. Anna: Yeah, I was actually, well, when I found the breast lump, I was in the shower. I was 36 years old and I just, right prior to that, I lost like 18 pounds willingly. So I was like, finally, I look, this is the weight I want to be at. I feel great. I look great. I felt confident for a change. And so then I was in the shower and I happened to have a bar soap in my hand.And I was, I happened to cross off a lump on my breast and I thought, well, this is weird. It's never been there before, but I mean, because I lost my weight, that's where I found it, but that's why I found it. And and [00:04:00] I was just like, well, it's probably nothing. And I worked at, in the pathology department at, at the time as a secretary.So I thought, well, you know, most people that come in there, they're older that get diagnosed with breast cancer or any kind of cancer. So. The next day I got went to the gynecologist and just a couple of months prior to that, she was telling me I needed to get a mammogram. She's like, you know, you're 30, 30, 6 now.You need to start thinking about getting a mammogram and mats. I don't need to do that. I'm too young. So so when I went to her, she was like, well, yeah, it feels like a lump is probably nothing, but so long story short, I ended up getting the biopsy and and I had to wait a whole seven days for the results and was psychotic.I mean, I kind of had an idea of something was up because the people that I'm friends with in the pathology department were like, are you doing okay, honey? I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. Why? Well, you know, w just wondering, and, and so it was a lot of emotions coming through. Cause I was like, wait, is something wrong with me?Cause why are there being so sweet to me now? You know? So [00:05:00] it was a lot of paranoia going on too. Isn't it? That, well, maybe I do have cancer. And and one of my friends is like, you know, you need to call your doctor. It's just, these results are not good because she couldn't give me the results because you just knew I was like freaking out.And so yeah, I had breast cancer. I was like, whoa. I mean, it was on my mom's 60th birthday. I was at her house celebrating her birthday. And I didn't tell her that I even had a biopsy. Cause I thought, man, it's nothing. Anyway. So yeah, it was a little, little shocking. And then I ended up getting ended up having actually three tumors in my left breast, which was just like, I had no idea I had cancer.I thought I felt great. I looked great. I didn't feel sick. You know, I didn't look sick. And so it's definitely very life-changingDe'Vannon: Was there a family history there of the Panther or. Anna: but my one cousin had it when she was in her thirties, but that's it like, there was like, no, no cancer at all that I know of in my family. Lucky me. Yay. [00:06:00]De'Vannon: Well, all things happened. Where were you the Monday? How were you able to, so you said you're cancer-free as of today. Anna: Yes. Nine years.De'Vannon: So how were you able to overcome that? Anna: Well, I had to have multiple surgeries and six, six surgeries to be exact with mastectomies, double mastectomy, and then also reconstruction surgery. And my cancer was fed by estrogen. So the goal is to get all the estrogen out of my body, which can cause low sex drive. And so I had to go through chemotherapy.I lost all my hair and and then, because I wanted to get rid of all my estrogen, I decide to have a total hysterectomy as well. So, so I was forced into menopause at a young age. So a little was a little hard on my body, but but I managed to where the chemo wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, which was helpful because I had two young kids at the time and I still wanted to be a mom.I didn't want to. To suffer and or show anybody that I was [00:07:00] struggling. I felt like I was supporting everybody else around me or reassuring them because they're crying all around me. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm so sad for you. And so I'm like, no, it's okay. I'll be all right. I'm patting him on the shoulder and I'm like, wait a minute.I'm supposed to be comforting me. But so I was pretty strong through the whole thing. I don't think I've ever really dealt with my emotions with with all the cancer stuff that I had to go through, but, but it, but I went through, I was determined to beat it. I wanted to be there for my kids. And here I am.SoDe'Vannon: Well, congratulations, bitch. Anna: thank you.De'Vannon: I'm glad to have you here now. Okay. So you mentioned that your cancer that you.used to have was fed by estrogen. So in order to defeat that It caused you to have a low sex drive. Once the cancer was gone, that your sex drive.Anna: It didn't. So I actually lost my second. I actually never really had a sex drive, to be honest with you. So when I, when I grew up, I had something called [00:08:00] endometriosis and that causes painful intercourse, which eventually led to lack of libido. And then so I have always struggled with low beetle. So the chemo and the treatment, everything made it even worse.Cause there was more, even more pain and, and dryness involved.De'Vannon: Okay. Anna: my, vagina broke before my chemo, before my cancer,De'Vannon: Right. So, cause when I was research and you are read that something happened after you had your second child in what do you think it, do you think it was a stress of the pregnancy that kind of like pushed your body over the edge or. Anna: as far as the, the broken vagina thing or the the cancer.De'Vannon: Well, no, as far as the broken vagina thing, like what happened after you had the second child? Because I was reading about it in your blog, you were saying like you had your second child, like something changed like in your body. Was it, did it everything become more painful then, or. Anna: It was always painful. So I [00:09:00] think with the endometriosis, it, it was always, since it was always painful over time, my vagina was just like, get the hell away from me, whatever it's coming at me. So, so I ended up trying, I was trying to have intercourse with my, my ex-husband and and it was like, nothing would go in there.It was like, it was like hitting a wall. I'm like, what the heck is going on with me? So I went to the doctor and she said well, you have vaginismus. And I'm like, what the heck is that? And she's like, well, you're the opening of your vagina is it's just as fascinating mean because it's probably just anticipating the pain that it's just.It's it's that's this natural reaction is to just kind of spasm up and not allow anything to, to enter there. And so I was supposed to go through physical therapy or pelvic floor therapy, and that involved, like using these dilators where I had to slowly stretch the vaginal opening, which is a long process and not, not pleasurable for sure. And it's like, the size of the pinky is the first [00:10:00] side of the dilator. And then once you're comfortable with that, then you move up to the next size and then you just keep graduating to the largest size, which has Godzilla, which I would never use because it's like, I don't want to size, it was just enormous.I didn't know how to explain it. So I just call it Godzilla size. So I just put that in the drawer way in the back. We've covered up. So, so I asked the therapist, why does this happen? And she said, well, it's your body's natural reaction because what's happening is if somebody comes up to you repeatedly and starts punching you in the stomach, once that person approaches you, you're going to start flinching and your muscles are going to tighten.And you're going to kind of back up to avoid that pain. Vince is patient of the pain. So she's so I said, so basically my vagina broke. So that's the easy way of saying it has my vagina broke. So yeah, so that's what I was doing. Those, those, I did the treatments for a little bit. And then again, it was just like very, it was a very slow process.So there's a cure for it. I just chose not to do it. And then when I got breast cancer, I didn't even want to think about using my dilators. My oncologist is like, [00:11:00] well, this is estrogen fed. Your libido is going to be non-existent for a while. I'm like, well, it already is. I mean, I don't even know how much, how much more, how much more possible is it going to be worse, but it was, it got even more dry and.De'Vannon: How did that cause. and.when all of this was going on. Anna: Yeah, I met my ex-husband when I was in eighth grade. And then, so he was my one and only, and I was, we were married for 20 years. We got divorced three years ago.De'Vannon: So how did, can you talk to me about the sort of stress that this caused in your marriage when you were going through. Anna: It was, he was patient. I just feel like it was, it was hard for me because I, I just, I felt like I was always making up excuses, like trying to stay up, let him fall asleep first. So I had to avoid it. So I, that probably didn't help the marriage at all. And eventually, you know, the level of intimacy kind of diminished in all ways, [00:12:00] because it was just something I always had to deal with.So it was never really said that it was in the back of my head. I feel like that's one of the reasons why definitely that you kind of. Distance distance ourselves. But so yeah, it definitely takes a toll.De'Vannon: So you're so it's a, you were saying like, okay, so intercourse is painful. Anything that you would certainty your vagina hurt? So I was reading where even a tampon, trying to put a tampon in there is like, was like super, super painful. So this is this pain exclusive to anything penetrating the vagina or what about that?Anna: trulyDe'Vannon: And external stimulation does that hurt too with these medical conditions? Anna: after the, I guess it's not as enjoyable, enjoyable as it probably should be, but after all my surgeries, it's more like just, I'd rather not [00:13:00] any kind of contact right now or ever, I guess I should say so. It's, it's just very sensitive and not in a good way. So.De'Vannon: Interesting. Okay. So. Then this, so we can shift gears from here and to entwine. So.I want you to tell us what your motivation was for creating this, this, this dating app. And this is spelled E N T w I N E. And also want to know what this name means and how you came up with that. Anna: Sure. As far as the name of why I called it in twine, I was going to call it, going to call it comfortable companions. And I was told by many that, that sounds like diapers. So don't do that. I'm like, oh my God, I guess it's probably hard to remember comfortable companions though. So so the, the app developers I did use, they ended up giving me a bunch of options of what I should use.And then when they set [00:14:00] in twine and I'm like, well, I in twining hearts people's lives together or whatever the heck. So I thought, yeah. And twine sounds good. So it's not a very exciting story. That's why we called it in.De'Vannon: Okay. So Was all the, all your medical conditions and things going on with your body, your motivation for starting this app and like how your marriage into what, tell me in your own words, why you wanted to go through the, the the rigor Moreau, because y'all starting an app. Isn't just as simple as like making like a Gmail account, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's complex as fuck.And it takes a lot of time, money, resources, and dedication. So this is not like it's not just like simple to start an app, especially something like this as a dating app is running algorithms and all of that. Why did you want to go through all of the painstaking tasks that you had to go through to bring this app, this app to fruition?Anna: So when I was married, [00:15:00] my girlfriends would go on traditional dating apps and I would say, Hey, how was your date? And they're like, you know, I mean, every guy in meat so far has ed and rocked all this function. And I was like, how old are they? Well, they're in their thirties or they're in their forties. And I'm like, well, what are the reasons why they have that?And, and they would say like, well, one of them has diabetes and other one might have antidepressants that he's taking or prostate surgery or whatever the reason is. And and I thought, well, why don't you save their numbers so that when I'm, if I'm ever divorced, you know, I'll go, I'll date them.Because if I, I thought to myself, if ever, if I'm ever single, I'd rather either just be single forever, because I thought to have to have that stress of wondering, you know, if that person could understand that I don't want to have intercourse. So I'm like, I'll just either stay single or I'd rather deal with guy with ed.So I'm like, there should be like a. Dating app for guys with EDD. And then I remember talking about it and then I'd let, let left it alone. Dropped it. And then I don't know, eight years later, that's when I got divorced and I thought [00:16:00] again, I'm like, I think I'm going to be single. I don't want to be with anybody.No, one's going to understand this. They're going to cheat on me. They're to they're not, they're not going to get it. And so then I thought, well, that's not fair for what the heck. I I've been through all this stuff for, there's a reason why I went through all this. And the reason I thought at first was to help people go and tell my friends, if you know anybody that's going through a cancer scare has breast cancer, whatever it is, Kevin can reach out to me.And that's what I would do. I would talk to people I'm like, no, I need to do something more. So I thought, what about these guys that have ed? How many times, you know, are they going to get rejected before they just give up? And so I thought I need to do something about it. So that's why I decided to create a dating app for it.Cause I thought. I want to help more people. It's not just me though that I want to help some, I'm still single. I'm not using the dating app yet, but eventually I will just want to kind of focus on getting the app established and getting more users. But so then I thought, well, I gotta do this. And I was a stay at home mom.I worked part-time as a, at the [00:17:00] time I got diagnosed, I was a secretary at pathology, but then then I was a stay-at-home mom and I also worked part-time as a medical transcriptionist. So I thought I have no business background and my, what am I going to do? How am I going to figure all this out? So I started doing some research and I found an app company that took like extreme advantage of me, meaning they stole a lot of money from me because I didn't know anything about business and they knew it and they wanted they want an equity in my app right away.So I was like, no, I said, I don't know, maybe like, well, we'll give you a discount services. And, and I, you know, it sounded great at the time because I was running out of money. So I used all my savings and and, and I thought, well, they don't want equity because they care about my app. They care about people.They want equity cause they wanna make money. So I decided to tell them, no, I don't want equity. I don't want you to have equity. And then after that, everything went downhill and stupid errors and glitches and oh, you want to fix, you want to put a notification on the envelope, [00:18:00] say you have a match.Okay. That's gonna cost you something like this functionality, you know, it was like stuff like that. So everything went downhill. And so I ended up taking the code and leaving and I was like I said, I'm done. I have no more money. I can't do this anymore. And then I thought this is not, this is not right. I mean, I thought I was going to give up.And but I couldn't cause I'm like this again. Why did I go through all this? It's not because I'm for me to just get taken advantage of and quit. I'm not gonna let anybody take my dream. So so I found another app guy and he was he's great. And he yeah. Took care of it, of the professional of the cost.And, now we're live end of August of last year.De'Vannon: Girl, you think I'm right. You don't let anybody take your dream. It's it's a fucking hassle when you, when you fall into the den of vultures like that, and it happens to all of us it's happened to me. But you know, I would encourage people who were trying to start businesses or apps or whatever, you know, to keep [00:19:00] trying. But you know, now there's websites out there like Upwork free up where you can hire people from all sorts of. Th technological backgrounds. And the beautiful thing is those websites will act as an intermediary and they hold the money. So that, that other person doesn't get paid until the work is done and it's done.Right. And they negotiate everything for you so that you don't have the fuckery, like what you went through and everything like that. I've been through that myself and it can be discouraging. I had issues like that with started my podcast and writing my first book. You know, but you just got to keep on doing it, like, like what you said, but my God, you just want to strangle the people who took advantage of you. Anna: Yeah.Even like I just found out recently, I was looking at, there was these graphics that they created. They said they created. And I remember saying, oh, can you change the graphics a little bit? And they're like, well, they're custom hand drawn graphics. So it's going to take some time off to give you another estimate.[00:20:00]And this was what it's supposed to in 2019. They use them and I just found out from another dating app that just got launched. I was just downloaded it just to look at it. And I found one of my graphics on her app. So like that wasn't custom, they told me it was hand drawn and it wasn't even the stuff like that.I was like, how could someone, how could a company be like that? You know, for me, it's just frustrating. Just I knowDe'Vannon: You got them out there, honey, but you knowwhat? We don't move forward. Anna: that's right. I know I got to stop looking at the past. That's my problem is I keep going back anymore.De'Vannon: You know, it's, it's good too, for the purposes of like, say this interview to talk about that so that other people can know that they are technological solutions and safeguards to this now. So, but yeah, when we were alone and thinking, I fall into that trap too, sometimes of like anger might rise up in me, then I try to, you know, I gotta realign myself and focus on what is working and not let those people [00:21:00] take my joy anymore. Anna: Exactly. I'm tired of people taking my joy. So De'Vannon: Not no more. Anna: that's right.De'Vannon: So so let's get more granular and let's dig into exactly the uniqueness of entwine. Tell me like the typical male person who's going to be on here. Typical female person are there. Trans people and I saw them there. They're like two guys kissing and everything like that. So I know it's LGBTQ plus friendly.So what are like the sex options and all the sexual orientation options that you have. Anna: So, because the app is very basic because of funding. So I had to start off with. then are you interested in male, female or both? So that's what we have for now, but my goal is to have it available for everybody because that's how it should be. And just because of costs, unfortunately, I wasn't able to, to expand on that, but that's my that's one [00:22:00] of my main goals is to do that.De'Vannon: Okay. So then within the. Within the parameters that.you have established, give you an example of the sort of guy who would come on, come on your app and the sort of girl what's it going on in their life? Are you seeing certain income ranges, certain typical occupations? Just, just give me an example of a male or female and female profile. Anna: So since the app ended up launching the end of August, there's not a ton of users. That's probably get into that later where how it's very hard to get a hold of users that are that have sexual limitations. But it's so when. I noticed that the ones that I do have, so they had to put down, if they're male, female, then they still had to say their, their age, their location.Do they smoke? Do they drink? And do they have kids? So it's very basic, but of course down the road, it'll be more more of an algorithm that filter. So And I noticed that the feud that I had signed up, I'm actually friends with them. And [00:23:00] then I'm like, do you have sexual dysfunction? There was one guy that signed up and he's like, no, I don't, but I just, I'm tired of meeting these women that it's all they want.And I'm okay with not having intercourse. I rather, because they think they're okay with other floors and intimacy and they're okay with not having intercourse. I don't say sex cause it could be oral or whatever. So and then the same thing with the women. They're like, I'm just tired of these guys. You know, they're just, that's all they ever do is, you know, that's all they want.And so I have a few women that sign up that they didn't, they don't have that issue and they just did because they, they want something different work, more of that emotional connection rather than the physical. So so it's, it's a variety for now. I don't know that occupations or anything like that yet.Cause it's not in there and they can type as much as they want in the about me sections. They don't have to say what their limitations are until they meet the person. So there's no pressure there because of. I probably mean myself. I tell everybody my vagina's broken, but there might be someone else.They went through sexual trauma. They may not want to put that in that, in that [00:24:00] description.De'Vannon: So then it sounds like not, oh, intimacy is off the table. So it sounded like people who are sexually able can go on here. They are open-minded to being with people who are not sexually. Abel. And then even within the realms of both, they might be other things they can get into Anna: Right.De'Vannon: exactly what sex is, not the sin, sin, sin, central focus. Anna: Exactly.De'Vannon: So what, so there was a statement that I read that you wrote in and said that no one really thinks about people that can't, that can't have intercourse. Can you, and I feel like that that's a, that's a huge motivating factor into why that, that did you create this app in order to create an inclusive space For people who have sexual dysfunction? So can you walk me through some of like the emotions that maybe you and people, you know, who are, who are suffering from sexual dysfunction, this [00:25:00] isolation that it seems like you talk about because it almost seems like there's a feeling of being discarded or are devalued here.Anna: For example, when I I'm in a couple of erectile dysfunction, Facebook support groups, and there'll be men on there and there. I don't know why I'm living anymore. I'm going to be single forever. No, one's going to accept me for my issue. And I'm like, I don't want to, I want to jump on there and be like, no, don't think that there's people out there like women like myself that don't mind if you have a broken Dick.I mean, I guess I could say that, right. Because I have a broken vagina. Right. De'Vannon: You can say anything you. want, girl, they all. Anna: So I can't really comment because I don't want to get kicked out of the cause they say, oh, you're promoting your abalone, my ups free, but, okay. So, and they don't know that they're, that they have these options and, and then there's all these women that have the same thing where there are in my breast cancer group.So the vaginismus groups, it was like 17,000 women in the vaginismus groups. And like how many people have a broken vagina that couldn't believe it? [00:26:00] And the ones that are saying like I'm just going to stay with my husband because. No one else is going to want to be with me. I can't have sex and throw in like an abusive relationship and they don't, they don't want to go anywhere else.And and guys that cheat and say rude things to them. And, and I thought, that's, this is why my app has made. And, and then I started hearing some cruel comments myself, and it made me think like this, this app is needed because the regular traditional dating apps don't think about, they don't cater to people that have sexual limitations.That's like a given it's like, okay, after the third, fourth date, we're probably going to have sex. And imagine that pressure of a guy or a girl, it's a think like, when am I going to tell this person that I can have intercourse? You know, are they going to make fun of me? Are they going to reject me my own?Be embarrassed. That's a lot of pressure. And, and for me, I, I did this right away. So if I started meeting I started since I started, since I got divorced, I started going out more and I started meeting men and. [00:27:00] Hey, you have kind of your number you want to go to for dinner. I'm like, well, let me tell you about the dating app I created.And then I started telling him about my issue and the variety of answers are pretty insensitive. So it just, again, confirms that there needs to be something like in twine to be like a safe, comfortable spot for people that have these limitations to find companionship. But when I told this guys this, but my broken vagina though, like w w a few of, several of them said well, you have other holes do like anal.I'm like, well, first of all, I don't even know you for you to even ask me that is just for going rude. But, and I said, you have other holes. It's like, really that's really classy. And also and our, I hear like, well, you know, the perfect reason why a guy wouldn't want to be with you. It was a good one, too, you know?And you have, you should never get married. You should never have a boyfriend because you'll never make them happy because you can't have sex. I'm like, it's just horrible. [00:28:00] But it's been for me, I I'm strong enough to handle it. I wasn't like crying, but eventually like a sensitive woman that just got sexually assaulted and then she knows or whatever, however, history of it.And then she hears that. I mean, that's horrible to, you may not never want to go on the dating scene again. At least I wouldn't have, you know, but I'm just prepared to you're thinking really hard. I could see it. I could hear it. I could see the wheels spinning.De'Vannon: Well, yeah. You're giving me a lot to think about, and I'm absolutely feasting on this, on this knowledge over here, there's so much. So much pain and what you're talking about in so much rejection and so much fear of rejection, and nobody deserves to live like that. It's, it's reminding me of when I first contracted HIV and hepatitis a B, and I was thinking the same thing, like, okay, who was going to want to be with me now? At what point do I tell them this? You know, how does this go? And, you know, you see now, [00:29:00] like on the, on the dating apps now, especially the gay dating apps you can put on there, whether or not you're HIV positive undetectable already. So, but at first it was, I liked that, but, you know, and you had to determine a point, but now you can put it on there.And so, you know, anybody who responds back to you or who reaches out to you as you know, that they're okay with that. But I understand what it's like to have that fear of, okay. Are they gonna want to keep me around after I tell them this is a weakness about me, you know, or not. And so You know, some people are like totally cool with dating someone who has HIV and some people want to head for the Hills and everything like that. And, and it sounds like it's the same thing that's going on in the sexual dysfunction world. Now I want to say, fuck you to all the assholes out there, like the people who were taught, who, who, who were talking to you and yet, you know, women do have other holes, but there is a class that your way to, to bring up because, you know, on the one hand, you know, if you're talking about sexual [00:30:00]dysfunction, the holes that can not be used, that conversation is on the table.And so yes, assholes can be asked about, but it could be done, you know, a little bit more class or something like that. You know, it like, Anna: Moved down the road and be like on the fourth day maybe or something that I didn't even go on a date yet. I was already asking about my whole holes.De'Vannon: That's a smooth question. Like, you know, lo Hey, well, what else might you be interested in? And, you know, and then just let you answer it. And if they're answered it and come up with, then they can assume that this is off limits. Anna: would be nicer, but yeah, and my girlfriends they're like, why don't you, why don't you wait to tell the guy that you have your broken vagina issue? And I said, well, why so I can just like, get emotionally attached because I get, I seem to get more emotionally attached to anything. Cause it's, it's I don't want to wait until I'm like four dates in and then all of a sudden I'd be like, oh, I really liked this guy.Oh, by the way, I have the sister. And then, then he says, oh, you have other holes. I'll be like, I couldn't, I kind of handle that. But if there's no emotional connection yet or attachment, [00:31:00]then I'd rather them know then and have to have them make a decision right at the time. Cause we usually, when I think, well, 99% of them that I did talk to they're like we never went on a date actually.I'd never been on a date. So since I've been divorced cause. Seeing the find the guy that is just like, I'm not, I mean, looking though I should say, but even if it's just like, I don't want them to convince themselves that they don't need intercourse either, because that's another thing they might do that like, well, I guess I don't need any more.I, you know, I'm going to have a bunch of heavy D myself probably, you know? So I think no don't convince yourself because then in the back of my head, it's going to be like, either I need to fix my vaginismus, it's treatable, but I don't want to fix it for me. I'd rather fix it for myself and somebody else.So it's a.De'Vannon: Well open relationships with something that I don't think It should be off the table, really like ever, but especially, [00:32:00] you know, in this sort of situation, because like, like an open relationships, you know, if, if you have like two people who are in a couple and they allow each other to have sexual experiences with other people, given whatever their rules and boundaries might be, it oftentimes doesn't include any sort of emotional exchange with whoever the extra people are going to be.And so I could see that. And I'm curious what your, what your opinion is you know, on this. So if you have say like one person who is sick, that's able to have sex in other one, who's not really, really enjoyed each other's company and companionship about letting the person who can have sex, maybe have that sex with someone else, you know, but actually building like your core life with, you know, the one person who can have sex in the one person who can not, what are your thoughts on that?Anna: I think for me, that's I wouldn't be able to handle it. I know there's, there's a lot of individuals that can do that, but I feel like if somebody's [00:33:00] intimate like that, having sex, that there's gotta be some kind of connection there or some kind of emotional connection in my head. But like if I was with somebody now, that's just like, like if I, for my, for my ex husband, I just said, well, you can't have sex with me.So go somewhere else and get somewhere else. I was still like, that would really bother me. And so I want to be able to handle that, but I'm sure there's couples out there. There are people out there that would be okay with it. But for me, it's just something that I want to be able to, to live with.De'Vannon: Right. It is about being true to yourself. And I agree with.every sexual exchange, there is some level of mental, spiritual, and emotional transacting that does happen. You know, so it's just about what, what works for you and what doesn't. I just wanted to put that out there as a possible option. Now I wanted to talk about the self-esteem issues that I'm picking up on here and that I'm hearing in what you're saying, because you've mentioned like, some people are, who have sexual dysfunction are in [00:34:00] abusive relationships with people who are able to have sex.And so you think that people are maybe staying in this abusive situation because of low self-esteem. What, what, what sort of self-esteem issues have you seen. Anna: Well, I think there was the woman. I did talk to that. Her neighbor actually. So I haven't talked to that to a woman, but she said I talked about my app and she's like, you know, my neighbor, she's her, husband's mostly abusive. And she had breast cancer and she's like button hysterectomy. And she had chemotherapy, all that stuff that I had.And, and she's like, and I said, well, why is she in the relationship? Then? She said, well, she said, she's, she's afraid to be alone. And she said that no guy is going to want to be with her because of all of her scars. And because she doesn't want to have sex, she's never going to find anybody like, so she's just going to stay married.And, and she's like, well, that's what she said. I'm like, well, tell her about my app because that's another thing too. I want to reach all these people that are married, that, or are in a relationship. To know that it's [00:35:00] you're, you, you probably won't be alone. You'd just rather to be alone anyway, then in an abusive relationship.But but when they have all these surgeries and on scars and everything, and not like I told them, I said, man, I don't have any nipples, you know? So that might freak a guy out if you saw that, you know? But and I didn't know that even the mastectomy had nipples removed too as well. So it can be heavily promoted, I should say.But, so that's why the most, the low self esteem, they just, they don't have that courage to leave their partner or even enter the dating scene because they have these, these scars or these sexual limitations. That's why I think a twine will help them because they don't, people seem to be more understanding.I think when they're on this app, because they know right away that the intercourse or sex is not this off the table or can be off the table.De'Vannon: So how many people do you have signed up total on there now? Anna: Seventy-five I know it's not the money. That's, that's, that's where my problem is, is getting the word out [00:36:00] because the majority of the users are female. Cause I think like the guys don't really want to talk about it. If they're more embarrassed about it and women are a little bit more vocal about it. I think if there's only like a few support groups for men with ed and there's all these women's issues and for breast cancer groups, vaginismus groups, there's other types of sexual dysfunction in women, that groups for that.But and then if I put like on Facebook, I'll put 'em on my personal page, like please share my app upon entwined. No, no guys like, like my posts, nobody wants to be associated with it because it's going to be like, well, that means that I have ed. I don't want anybody to know that. So we're thinking that.So we're getting the word out is pretty, pretty difficult, but it's available in the U S right now only my goal is to have it available worldwide. And I actually had a few different countries reach out to me, UK, Canada Pakistan, and even India. They, [00:37:00] they messaged me separately and like, why is your app only available in the us, please make it available in our country.We need this to, and, and it's, it's needed worldwide. There's estimated it's going to be 300 to 320 million men in the world are going to have ed by 20, 24. I think the statistics were it's a lot of men, so there's like 30 million men right now in the U S that have ed. So like, we're all these, all these, all these men that are single, these need to hear about and fine.Cause there's, there's even veterans that I was researching. Veterans, I kind of go off, I think about something and I start talking about something else, but these, these veterans there, they have PTSD possibly, or maybe they have depression and they're on these, these antidepressant meds. Or maybe they, they lost limbs during combat genitals, even, you know?So I thought, what about these individuals? How do they find companionship? [00:38:00] And then I started seeing that, you know, there is this high suicide rate for veterans and some of them, there's not an exact percentage, but they were just in, at their counselor's office during therapy and talking about how they're very alone and they don't know what to do.And they ended up committing suicide. So it was like, I want to save everybody. I want to see the veterans. I want to save cancer patients, even people that are not cancer patients, you know, it's just, it's, it's needed in all these different areas. Diabetic clinics. I mean, I didn't realize diabetes caused causes ed too, you know, so it's just a matter of reaching everybody.And it's just me trying to do this with social media marketing, everything I'm doing on my own. So it's a little slow process, but De'Vannon: Well,Anna: there.De'Vannon: well, as the Lord says in the Hebrew Bible says despise, not the day of small beginnings. And so, you know, every app had to start with an idea and with that first, first two signed up. So there's no shame. And [00:39:00] just having 75 people, you know, 75 today, a hundred thousand tomorrow, you know, the thing in business is to stay consistent time and pressure, you know, are two things. Anna: zero before, so somebody five minute, every, every week I'm like, oh, I got another user. I got another user and I get all excited De'Vannon: But yeah, I heard, I heard high blood pressure. You can call it the right time. Can calls, towel, dysfunction. There's all kinds of medications and diseases out there. For veterans though. Yeah. I'm, you know, me being a veteran myself, you know, guys. It's just a lot of stress and you come out of the military and even when you're in the military and stress can cause erectile dysfunction.There's so many things, you know, but you know, the, the, the, I recommend for you to reach out to the disabled the DAV disabled American veterans, and because that's a good association that helps veterans and all sorts of things, they send out, you know, like a monthly magazine, they have a great website, [00:40:00] you know, they may want to post that, re your resource on there and include it in their publications as the American Legion.There's all sorts of like veterans associations that That that, that, that are set up to help. And of course you have mental health clinics in the department of veterans affairs, medical centers worldwide. And so I would work with the DAV if I were you and see how you might, could help their veterans.And then even maybe get this posted in the, in the veterans, hospitals worldwide, and, you know, look into that. Cause the, the veterans health care system is huge. You know, there's veterans, hospitals, and then there's a little mini clinics in cities where there's not enough population to have a big hospital, but mental health just in veterans alone, if.It's like a big deal and a lot of all kinds of dysfunctions play. He goes, honey. And so, and the thing with veterans is there since we tend to be so broken, the, the, [00:41:00] the powers that be are that have to deal with us are always looking for some sort of help. You know, there's plenty of veterans who get prescribed like Viagra and Cialis and all of that and everything like that.And so I think, I think it'd be worth your time to look into going down that route. And then suicide. Yeah. You had, you had said something earlier about like a form you were in the guy who was like, I don't want to live anymore. And everything like that, men attach so much of their value and worth to sexual performance. Y and I know you're not a man, but you know, why do you think that is a, what, what thoughts do you have on that? Because it goes for some, for a guy to be like, you know what? I can't fuck. So I'm just going to kill myself, you know, that's, that's like, that's like kind of a big deal in terms of like how much he thinks to himself based on how hard his Dick can get, what he can do with it.Anna: I often wonder [00:42:00] myself. I mean like, okay, I can't have sex, but I don't want to kill myself. You know, it's just like, I'm just like, eh, whatever. But it's just like, I don't know if just like, just so like, I don't know what the word is. Not even embarrassing, but I mean, I don't know. They just attached to that thing.Huh? So manhood, I don't know. But even like couples that are like the guys that are on the EDI page, like, you know, my. Is understanding, or she's not understanding anymore and she's not, she wants to divorce me now. So when guys and girls, where girls have to, where they're just like, and I don't want to be with the guy with ed, like, so it's, it's hard.It's heartbreaking to see that though. There's there were several posts that I saw guys that are like, you know, I don't, why am I living anymore? And it's, I don't, I never reached out to them to ask them why, but why there was so like, [00:43:00] they just don't want to be alone. I think De'Vannon: They don't want to be alone. And they feel like they feel like no one will have them. If their Dick don't work. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: Okay. So then what I think this speaks to is our need to, as a, as a, as a society to reevaluate our value system, our personal value system and w and what we will allow and how we accept value from other people.So. Okay. So that means that we gotta be sure that we're assessing our value, not based on what we can do, but just who we are. So that means every day that we wake up, we are incredible and wonderful and loving and deserving of love because that's the way God made us, you know, we're here. So whether we perform fantastically today on whatever the task is, be at work sex, whatever the hell it is that you do, or if you totally suck at it, that doesn't mean that you are a bad person.It just means that you are imperfect, which [00:44:00] is true. And that's something that we just got to get over and accept about ourselves. We're just not going to be able to do everything and do everything as good as we would want to. And then if somebody wants to reject us because of an imperfection, we'll then fuck them.And I don't think that we need to go about the business of being like, I need to fix myself so that people will accept me because that's not living truth. You know, truth is, this is what's going on with me right now. I hope it gets better, but if it doesn't, I'm still going to be all right, because I'm more valuable than these, these physical limitations.I also think it's shortsighted because, you know, we have a spiritual aspect of us and a mental aspect of aspect of us. And when we die and leave this plane of existence, you know, there will be no Dixon vaginas, you know, on the other end, the other spiritual side, you know, these things, don't concern, angels and demons.And so, so I mean, I get, I get you know, somebody values something and they've made a big deal out of it. [00:45:00] I can see when it leaves them. They may not know how to cope with that. So, so, Hmm. So it sounds like then a lot of men may not be seeking mental health treatment to go along with erectile dysfunction.So what do you speak on the, everything I just said in my tirade, just now about the mental, the the, the self valuing aspect of it and the way we receive. Oh, how, how we should reject judgment from other people and then tie in mental health counseling implications to this. Anna: For myself. I didn't really, I didn't go for therapy or mental health counseling. I think like with men, there's actually specific therapists that have that specialized in sexual dysfunction for mum. And and I think a lot of them don't know that there's, there's cures further. Ed it's like, there is a cure for vaginismus.I know there's a cure of, I don't want to do it, but but these guys that they have these when [00:46:00]they do go to therapy, they might know that there's treatments. So they've lost hope, but they don't, they don't know that there's penile implants. There is injections. There's certain medications that they can take that would hopefully help them.There's even male penile press thesis that I'd met the founder of that guy that makes externally worn penises. And it, I guess the saves several marriages as well. But so without them going to a therapist and finding out, and I don't think that they may not, may not know, and for them to end their life for that, that's even more horrible.But that they need to know more about it. There's such a stigma for, for this this whole taboo of this topic, but they hope they would talk to somebody and why not? What, what options are out there and know that they don't have to do. They don't have to have surgery to have a press Penile implant.They can use my app instead, you know, because who wants to have [00:47:00] injections in their penis. I think that would hurt, you know? So that's another thing too. It's like maybe they don't want to do those treatments anymore.De'Vannon: I, I just, I just really think that we should be more valuable than our dicks, but I can see they can stroke a male ego and then how a woman or whatever it is someone's dating could praise them for their sexual performance. But I just, I just want to encourage people to let their relationships and their self value be based on more than Dick and Pelosi. I can Anna: yeah. Would be nice. ButDe'Vannon: we, we, we, can we come a little bit farther than that people Anna: I mean, not, not everybody's like that. I mean, there's couples that I hear on Facebook that are like, We have, we have such great other types of intimacy that we don't need intercourse cause outercourse and you know, they're fine with that and not [00:48:00] so,De'Vannon: You said outercourse, Anna: yeah, like a De'Vannon: there are other chorus Anna: out outer, outer course instead of intercourse, this outer core. So anything like De'Vannon: like four plates. Anna: and stuff, I guess. Yeah. Like a, yeah. Does it mean even though you're, even though you have ed, you still can what's the proper word come and ultimate. What's the cool word to use nowadays. De'Vannon: Ejaculated com bust a nut. Anna: but if you're limp, I don't know if you knew that you don't have to tell me if you know that.De'Vannon: No, I don't. I didn't know that that was possible. Anna: Yep. I didn't either until I started reading and I'm like, what really? So I guess what the right position, the outer is can work, grinding and stuff.De'Vannon: Hmm, I suppose. So [00:49:00] there's not a blockage in between the testicles and the urethra and the flow of semen can flow out because the hard, the erection is, is nothing more than blood rushing into the spongy tissue that makes up, you know, the penis, the Dick area, you know, blood is what makes Dick hard. But I guess, but yeah, I mean, there's nothing blocking the flow of the spring mountain shore Ramadan. Anna: did it. No.De'Vannon: Hm. Well, now we'll just power, you know, we gotta learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And we also got to learn how to love ourselves. I feel like I just keep feeling like. The whole broke. Dick broke pussy thing is like the, kind of like the surface level of this. I feel like that this is so much deeper.You know, I feel like that this is a, like a cavernous void of. I don't know, like just did something broken inside a person. Cause you know, when you're happy, healthy, and whole, you can have shit fuck up in your [00:50:00] life or in your body. And that won't take your joy away from you. You know, when you reach a certain level of mental, which you already spiritual maturity and emotional maturity, you know, not saying you won't be pissed off if, if something breaks in your body or if you get cancer or if you get HIV, but you're not gonna let it into your life because you know how to focus on what is working and not, what's not working.So you might have some health issues, but what else, what, what what's actually going on, good in your life and everything like that. Why focus and emphasize and make a big deal out of one negative when you've got so much positive going on. It's like this whole fight over cut and uncut dicks, you know, people are so goddamn, shallow and shit that they've made people feel insecure about.Okay. I'm not gonna say I'm not going to have sex with him. He has an uncut Dick. The thing is ugly. Or on the converse, somebody that'd be like, well, I only want [00:51:00] uncut dicks. You know, it was like a whole thing, especially in the gay community. It's like a whole big fiasco and, and I'm all like, God damn it.Just shit. Dick is Dick other daily work. The same, all that is is a, is a, is a, is like a cosmetic thing. You know, it was, there was a hood there. Or there's not, you know, Yeah,sure. You can have your preferences, but it shouldn't be to the point that he makes somebody feel bad. You know, if their Dick isn't pretty enough, you know, you know, all of that and nobody should accept that sort of criticism, you know, from somebody else.And so, you know, again, it just gets me back to watching how we think about ourselves, being sure that our value systems about ourselves, not based on superficial things and also not allowing somebody to make us feel bad over superficial things. If some people should accept you for who you are, no matter what, not, what you can [00:52:00] do. Anna: Yeah. That's how it should be. But.De'Vannon: Now, you mentioned, you mentioned the statistic about how many men have we worked out a function, the songs, and how many are projected to, what are those, what are those statistical projections for? What. Anna: I didn't really find much for women because either they don't report it. Like if I, if I didn't go to the doctor, I would never have known, I have vaginismus. I want to just pay just like dealt with it. But and I think I had, this was back in the day too, when I was at, when I started using tampons because they were hurt, they were hurt.I'm like, that's weird. I'm like, well, I never said anything. Cause you know, it's embarrassing to tell my parents and my mom that or whatever, or the doctor that so, so there's not like an exact statistic for women, but I'm sure there is, there's a ton out there.De'Vannon: Well, that makes sense and sense of such a big deal for men if something's not working right. You know, he's probably going to go run real quick to try to get that shit fixed. Anna: Yeah. And there's a ton of women that have painful intercourse and they just deal with it. And like myself, I never, actually, I went to the [00:53:00] doctor. When I was early marriage and I was, I would say like sex hurts. I don't know why it hurts. It hurts. And they're like, well, just relax, have a glass of wine. And you'll be fine.I'm like, okay, thanks. When I went to the next doctor, same thing, relax, have a glass of wine. I'm like, oh my gosh. So let's put, these women are being told and said, you know, this time, thankfully somebody said my new doctor was like, you have vaginismus. Otherwise I would have been like, well, you're just too tense.And it's not all mental because I was under anesthesia of having my hysterectomy. And there were it was a vaginal hysterectomy and the doctor's like, I couldn't even get instruments. And then when you were under anesthesia with thing was just super tight and closed and not gonna go away. So yeah.It's so it's not just mental because I heard that too. Like, oh yeah, it was the wrong guy then that's probably what it is literally with me. I'll cure you. De'Vannon: Yeah. Anna: Sure.De'Vannon: Well, not all doctors are created even, you know, I believe [00:54:00] in second, third, fourth opinions, whatever it is that you need in order to until you feel like you've received an answer of PISA and you know, when it makes sense to you, and then you're not trying to like negotiate with, you know, if you know some shit ain't right.That you're getting from a doctor and then go somewhere else. Anna: Yes. That's what, yeah. Especially with cancer stuff. I had a really bad plastic surgeon that a little too confident and messed up my chest and I had to have another side, the other side removed because of it to make him symmetric. And he was just very cocky. Like, I'll wait until you're done with my once I'm done with your mastectomy, doing your reconstruction, your, your friends are going to be jealous of your, of your chest.And I'm like, I don't even have nipples guy con what friends gonna be like, Ooh, look at you Ana. No, so yeah. Second opinions.De'Vannon: I would have run right then, because, you know, if you're in a doctor's office going through what you were going through it at that point in time about your friends, you know, it was about Anna: [00:55:00] know he was very cocky.De'Vannon: about you and what you need to feel beautiful. Not about giving you a look so that you can go out there and give shallow ass people a reason to give you an attaboy or an ad, a girl or whatever.You know, his heart was not in the right place. Anna: yeah. Yeah. He's not a good guy, but I know how to pick them. Sometimes these doctors andDe'Vannon: So you've mentioned that this app is free. Anna: yes, it's free and it will have premium features available right now. Their premium features are free, but once I have enough users, then we'll do the premium services at an extra charge because I have to make some kind of revenue in order to maintain the app. So so yeah, right now it is, it is a free app.De'Vannon: So that you plan to grandfather, the people in and give them the premium services to people who have signed up, have been with you from the beginning, or will you give them a discounted rate or what's the plan? Anna: I'm not really sure yet, because I was debating if I should do a [00:56:00] monthly rate too. Cause that's another reason why I wanted to do a monthly rate for everybody is because I don't want someone to just sign up for the app to just to be nosy and just to see, like, let's see if I know anybody that has ed next to me or whatever my neighborhood.And and I didn't want that freedom. Cause I mean, I've been tablet. I could tell, like I already have a fake user on there, John DOE I'm like, or like whatever it was. I'm like what do I do with this guy? And there's no picture of him, you know? So why is he on this app? Is he because he's being nosy or is he being shy?You know, what's the reason, so. So I thought that maybe having like a minimum registration fee or whatever, it will be monthly fee that they would prevent malicious users. would actually know exactly what the app's about. They won't sign up, you know, if, if it's free, they won't sign up. Or if they have to pay for it, they may hesitate to sign up because they were make sure that they understand what the apps about first.De'Vannon: Right. That might not be a bad idea. I mean, I think E harmony [00:57:00] did something similar, you know, to that, you know, and have done very, very well in terms of, you know, having a fee for everybody, you know, with the, with the money, the things people spend money on, you don't have the bullshit, the money on, you know, hello coffee is, was at least $5.If you dare eat food, which I hate fast food, but shit, you know, you're looking at a good eight to $10 for one meal at a fast food restaurant. So a couple of dollars a month. Anna: To find true love that's worth it. Right.De'Vannon: No, it is totally worth it. And then, yeah, you'll, you'll get the bullshit people, bullshit ass people off your off of your app that way. So is there anything else you would like people to know about entwined? You know, this app can be found and like what the Google app store and the apple app store and on the website, like, so tell us where it is and anything at all. You want us to know about the app?Anna: So right now, if you go to intwine dating.com E N T w I N E dating.com, you [00:58:00] can read the whole history of why I created the app again, if you'd like, and then also you can download it to the play store. So Android it's available on Android. You use it as a web web-based app and then also so. IOS I'm working on that because I have, they, I guess they're not accepting any new dating apps in the app store right now.So I have to plead my case and show them that this is not because they said there's too many scams out there. So I had to show them, look, I have this many users. I've helped this many users. It's been on Google play store for how many months or years. And I joined all these podcasts and I in this magazine, you know, so it's a legit person.That's created something to help others. So it's just to show that it's a unique app. And then once I plead my case, I'll be able to go into the, into iOS, which I can't wait for that too. Cause it's a lot to explain.De'Vannon: Right. So the, do you have like a Facebook group, but you know, you can make like a private Facebook group so that people can [00:59:00] talk to each other. Do you have something like this? Anna: I don't yet. I, I tried to, to create like a sexual dysfunction group and a. I got a lot of creepy people trying to join us. So from different countries. And so I'm like, well, that's not going to work. So yeah, I do have like my business page, my entwine and twine Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. But as far as like a group for just the users, not yet.De'Vannon: Okay. All right. All right, Anna. Well, this isn't bringing us to the, to the end of our, I felt like I don't know, very like meaningful and loving conversation here that we've had today. So what, what advice do you have that? And I'm going to let you have the last word here. What, what advice do you have for people, men and women, both who are suffering?From either cancer and or [01:00:00] sexual dysfunction. Anna: The sexual dysfunction. If you're one of those people that have been alone for a long time, this app could be your answer you've been waiting for. And I know it's intimidating to sign up at first, but there's other people out there that, that are okay with not having intercourse. And just because you can't, if you have ed or vaginismus or whatever, whatever condition you have, it's you deserve to be loved too.And, and I think you should take that leap and join in twine and you can have somebody there that's gonna love you just the way you are and you don't have to change for anybody. Just be yourself.De'Vannon: Yeah, That's like that. I think that Bruno Mars songs and he's like, girl, you were amazing just the way you are. Anna: that's right. Spear self. it, you know, I'm a karaoke horror, by the way.De'Vannon: Hey, be a horn, not a boy. [01:01:00]Anna: I go to karaoke like seven days a week when I don't have my kids. That's my outlet.De'Vannon: You do well in Japan. They love you over there. And what about closing words where anyone with cancer? Anna: If you are diagnosed or if you find like something suspicious, don't hesitate because early detection is key. If I had waited to check my lump out, out of fear, I wouldn't be here anymore because my cancer was

Welcome to January 28th, 2022 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate the buzz on kazoos and our inner Big Wig. Today we celebrate a uniquely American instrument that was first known as the Down South Submarine. We know it better as the kazoo. This musical oddity was invented in the 1840s by a man named Alabama Vest and the German watchmaker Thaddeus von Clegg. The kazoo has created some buzz over the years, but it's mainly been treated as a toy rather than a legitimate instrument. That said, it has been featured in blues and jazz music, though it's rarely taken the spotlight. Still the kazoo has had its place in the sun. In fact, it has its very own museum in Beaufort, South Carolina. If you happen to be in the area, swing by the Kazoobie Kazoo Factory to celebrate National Kazoo Day.   Anna: Hey, Marlo, why are you wearing that ridiculous wig? Marlo: What are you talking about? This is my natural hair, I'm just styling it differently. Anna: I know you're a redhead but that looks a bit like bozo the clown. Marlo: It's National Big Wig Day, Anna. In honor of the Look Good Feel Better Campaign, folks across the country host a party to raise money for cancer patients who could use a boost with locks of their own. Anna: I've heard about that! People get their inner Big Wig on and take on the role of philanthropist. There are charity events around the country that raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cancer charity of their choice. Marlo: I think I'm rocking the bozo look by the way. Anna: It is Have Fun At Work Day too! I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do we meaningly engage conversation around topics that are highly charged in our culture? Join our conversation with Anna Carter, the founder of Eden Invitation, a community for Catholics that promotes the fullness of personal identity beyond the LGBTQ paradigm. We talk about acceptance, relationship, and finding common ground under compassionate orthodoxy. ### QUOTES “One of the most critical things that is so simple yet so often overlooked, is the primacy of relationship with Christ in all these situations.” - Anna What does the human heart need above sexual fulfillment: love, belonging, acceptance. That doesn't mean accepting the entirety of the person. I feel acceptance and people don't accept every sin I commit. We do have bigger paradigms to operate under but all of a sudden our paradigm within this context just shrinks, and we think, I have nothing.” - Jason “If I love someone well, they stay. And I think that's the secret sauce of Jesus. It's the woman at the well, Zacheus, the leper—all these people realize, this man is loving me.” - Jason Part of [this] comes down to the individual accompaniment. Asking people, how is your prayer? What is the question behind their question? What's going on in other aspects of his life and the full context of his life?” - Anna “What would it look like if we suffered with those that are gender minorities? What are your pain points in the church? What are the expectations on your life? What's hard? What is the suffering and how can I be in it with you?” - Anna “It's easy to put a wall up when someone experiences passion in a way that we don't understand. When in reality, there are scorching passions inside all of us. Am I willing to be in tune with my own? Am I willing to be in tune with the way I cry out and to look at you from that gaze of understanding?” - Anna “You can't take someone into their story further than what you're willing to go into yourself.” - Jason *### The Important Things: * 7:40 - It's not just always about giving someone the right tools, it's the relationship that keeps us walking with the Lord. We have to let go and guide someone towards a deeper relationship. 10:21 - A lot of it comes down to the individual accompaniment and asking the questions behind their questions. What is their context? What other aspects are going on in their life? 12:15 - “I think we are guilty of the same thing we accuse the LBGTQ community of doing. Which is identifying by sexuality…. All of a sudden, everything we know about ministry gets tossed out the window. Everything we know about human development and human formation and spiritual formation, all of a sudden it drops out of our backpack and we don't know what to do. Which is sort of identifying them by it. It's saying, because you're this, I don't have ways to help you.” 14:00 - The principle is being confident in your life in Jesus in order to offer it to others. The second is giving people what they need from a human level: belonging, love, acceptance. 26:15 - What do we do when we don't know how to engage meaningfully? You have to consider: the internal reality of the hearer, your own intention, and how culture has infused words with different meanings. But what matters most of all is the heart. What is the intention behind the language and conversation? 48:08 - Compassionate orthodoxy: It can be empathy and understanding. But it can also be suffering with—to love, and be called to charity. What are their pains in culture and the Church? We can find common ground in the human experience of being in the wilderness. Lists & Resources https://www.edeninvitation.com/ https://www.instagram.com/edeninvitation/ https://www.facebook.com/edeninvitation/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmgNJUWwpyki1JlCP2Rbg

In this week's show, Phil talks to Anna McDougall, a former opera singer and now a full-stack developer with a passion for JavaScript. She is also a tech blogger, a YouTube creator and a public speaker. Anna discusses impostor syndrome and why it's always wise to receive feedback with the right mind-set in place. She also talks about the importance of altering your perspective when looking for a job in the IT sector.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: TOP CAREER TIP When you are faced with insecurity and constructive feedback, remember that you are never there to prove yourself to someone. Remember to keep a learning mind-set active whenever feedback of any kind is offered.   WORST CAREER MOMENT Anna gave up when she was young, which is a constant source of regret. With the passage of time, she has come to realise how skilled she was, but was held back by societal expectations.   CAREER HIGHLIGHT Anna made a career change and took on a new role, pivoting completely in terms of a career path, working hard to build her technical skills, and also applied much effort into understanding the back-end of tech while building an online presence and community.   THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T Anna is most excited about the potential of tech – how it can achieve lasting change, benefit humanity, and reinvent itself constantly.   THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – The potential of technology and how it can change the world. What's the best career advice you received? – Don't be afraid to say no! What's the worst career advice you received? – To not ask for a very big salary upon moving to Leipzig. What would you do if you started your career now? – Anna would focus on back-end technologies and Java. What are your current career objectives? – Anna's main objective is to raise her technical skills as much as possible. What's your number one non-technical skill? – Public speaking. How do you keep your own career energized? – Anna always looks for challenges to keep her knowledge fresh and her instincts keen. What do you do away from technology? – Gym work and training.   FINAL CAREER TIP When looking for a job or career path, we must think less about our own needs and wants and more about the wants and needs of our potential employers or recruiters.   BEST MOMENTS (6:43) – Anna - “It's not about an improving-yourself mind-set. It's about a learning mind-set” (7:21) – Anna - “Finding those gaps in your knowledge is a good thing” (17:31) – Anna – “If something isn't right for you, or if you don't have time, it's better to say no” (20:42) – Anna – “Think less from your perspective, and think more from a recruiter's perspective”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organizations to design, develop, and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/_PhilBurgess LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Instagram: https://instagram.com/_philburgess Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast's website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – ANNA MCDOUGALL Anna McDougal is a former opera singer and now a full-stack developer with a passion for Javascript. She is also a tech blogger, a YouTube creator and a public speaker.   CONTACT THE GUEST – ANNA MCDOUGALL Anna McDougall can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/AnnaJMcDougall LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annajmcdougall/ Website: https://www.annamcdougall.com/

In this episode, Anna Jordan talks to Will Butler-Adams, managing director of Brompton Bikes. We discuss taking over the company from its founder and the future of manufacturing.   You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on business succession and international trade. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Will Butler Adams' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Will Butler-Adams, managing director of Brompton Bikes. He started at Brompton in 2002 as a project manager, moved up to engineer director and decided to take on the role of MD when a rival company was going to buy the company out in 2008. After making some changes, production sped up and Brompton now sells 55,000 bikes per year, with key markets in the UK and China. A UK-based Brompton bike hire scheme was launched in 2011. Outside of the firm, Butler-Adams is a fellow at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and the Royal Geographical Society as well as the City and Guilds of London Institute. He’s also a member of the British Manufacturing & Consumer Trade Advisory Group, consulting on post-Brexit trade deals outside the EU. We’ll be discussing what it’s like to take over a business from its founder and how to maintain brand loyalty. Anna: Hi Will. Will: Anna, good morning. Anna: How are you? Will: Well, very lucky. In the current climate, as we are seeing, some really, really challenging times both emotionally and also commercially, for many people globally. It's a pretty unprecedented time and we are finding ourselves as a business, one of the few sectors that has benefited from the current crisis. Anna: I understand you're in the factory right now. Will: Yep, I'm in the factory. We've traded non-stop throughout from the very first lockdown. And that has come with all sorts of challenges. But funnily enough, and we'll talk about a little bit more no doubt, that bicycle is a very, very useful tool in a situation like this. And there has been this sort of global enlightenment, to the value of something so humble as a bicycle. So, you know, we've contributed in our own peculiar way to try and to help people through this crisis. Well, I will start a little bit further back from here. When you when you bought the company, way back in 2008, you made a generous valuation estimate and you bought out the founder Andrew Ritchie's controlling stake in the company. Some might see that as a bold strategy. Why did you go for it at the time? Will: I joined the company in 2002, there were about 30 of us. Initially, I just thought I was going to muck about with a mad inventor making what looked like a fun and interesting product, not much more than that. And then [after] two or three years I'd move on. I was pretty young at 28, but the bike got under my skin and it affected my life. I wasn't naturally an urban liver. And yet, it's such fun living in London with this bike because it gave me this freedom. And I saw it had a similar, quite profound effects on our customers. That's very alluring and, in some respects, addictive. I was consumed by the company, entirely consumed by it. And Andrew, the inventor, is an absolute flipping genius. But he's not a builder of a business because he is much more of a sort of complete megalomaniac, detail, engineering right down in the nitty gritty. We're both engineers, but I'm more of a ‘vision, empowerment and grow’ engineer. And I wanted, by the time we got to 2008 – in fact, 2006 or 2007 – I wanted to commit my life to the product he'd invented, but I couldn't do it if he still had the control. The reality is that, even if you've made me the MD back then I wouldn't have had the control that I needed to do what I needed to do because I knew I needed to do things that he wouldn't approve of. He had to let go of control. It didn't mean I was then taking control because I never did. I just took out his controlling stake. But it then meant I had authority and autonomy to do what I knew needed to happen to the business for it to fulfil its potential. Were there signs that he [Ritchie] may have been getting to the point where he was more willing to give over some of the control? From what I've read, he was quite reluctant to delegate when he was in charge. Anna: Life isn't black and white. It's full of moments in time, and people, and there's a certain amount of luck. And it's whether you see the opportunity or the luck floating by and whether you jump on to it. But in this particular case, I think it was a moment in time where Andrew was getting so caught up in the detail. And when a business gets to a certain size, if you're trying to control everything, you've become the eye of the needle, and everything has to go through you. And you think that by recruiting people that you will find that then, you have less work to do. But if you are the person who is controlling everything, everything has to come through you. And by recruiting more people, you find you're even busier. That's what happened to Andrew: he got busier and busier and busier. It was making him unhappy. Because he was putting himself under so much pressure, there was a sort of nosedive where he was not enjoying himself because the business was becoming so successful. Also, I was being more confident. In the early days, the company was owned by him and his friends. His friends weren't Andrews. They were entrepreneurial, independent businesspeople in their own right. They could see and bring perspective and support Andrew to make the decision because they could see there was no way he could continue, because it wasn't his forte. So, they encouraged him to let go. It's worth saying that on many occasions, since then, he's vehemently regretted it because I've done things of course, which I knew I'd have to do that he didn't agree with. Tell me – what kind of protestations did he have? Will: It's about detail. Andrew is an inventor – in the absolute classic sense of the word. He spent 13 years, he hand-drew 1000s of drawings – technical drawings – not just for the bike, but how to make the bike and in insane detail. It’s something straight out of A Beautiful Mind. It's unreal that one human being could do what he did against a sort of backlog of everyone telling him, ‘What are you doing, wasting your time? You've tried, you fail, you're still at it, why are you still at it?’ He wouldn't give up. But he would worry about training and worry about tolerances, worrying about the grammar and would pick up on some problem, you know, six pages deep in our website, and ask me, ‘How would I let this happen?’ It's wrong, but in the grand scheme of things, when you're running a business and trying to do this and open up markets in Japan and an office in London developing this, he assumed that I would know everything and check every piece of written word and that I'd signed off every detail, but it doesn't happen like that. You have to find people better than you, you need to trust them, you need to allow them to make mistakes, just not mistakes that will take out the business. But his perception is that I was running the business – when it had 100 people, 200 people, 300 people, 400 people – in the same way that he ran the business when it had 40 people. That's just not possible. So that was the friction, and in some respects, still is a friction. In most cases, everything Andrew said was technically correct. It just wasn't the priority. And the problem is, when you're running a business and you're growing at some speed, you actually have to walk past things that are wrong. You're walking straight past something that is absolutely wrong. Unacceptable, not right. But you have to leave it because there's an even bigger wrong over there. You need to deal with the biggest [wrong]. It gives me huge pleasure that there are some things that I've been walking past for eight, nine, ten years. Finally, we've got the breadth and the capacity as a business to finally address some of these things that have been bugging me. But if you get distracted by every minutiae, as you're growing a business, you won't move the business forward because you'll never get to the most important thing that then allows you to move on to the lesser things and as you build down through the priority list. I think especially when you're starting a business, you're so used to playing all the roles, so that can be difficult to let go of. But interestingly, in Brompton’s case, when I joined, there were fewer than 30 people. I was the person running the machines. I rolled my sleeves up, spent three weeks running machines. The business was so small that that is what I did. That role has changed significantly. We now have offices around the world and we've got lots of people and I'm really doing nothing. That's a really tough call to design yourself out of a job, because there is no operational control in my role. Speaking of internationally – and you probably saw this coming – but I'd like to talk a bit about Brexit. We’re a week and a half in now. It's been ‘chaotic’, in a word, especially for exporters. I think that as somebody who has worked to advise on trade deals, and who wants to grow their market in other parts of Europe, especially for small business exporters, what do you think the forecast is for them, say the next three to five years? Will things get better? Will: What I would say – and this is not entirely directly answering your question, but indirectly does – when you're in business, you need to focus on things that you can control. You can control who you employ, you can control the culture of your organisation, how you present yourselves and what you do to inspire your team. What you can't control is FX (foreign exchange), what you can't control is Brexit. So, what you need to do is put in place strategies to mitigate the things that you can't control to allow you to get back to focusing on the things you can control. What happened with Brexit was, it started four years ago, we took a decision four years ago, to plan for the worst-case scenario. It took us about three months, the worst-case scenario hasn't then changed in three-and-three-quarter years, it's still the worst-case scenario. So, for the last three-and-three-quarter years, we've focused on growing our business innovating, distribution, communication – and we've doubled the size of our business. But what I saw over Brexit was many businesses got so caught up in worrying about something that they couldn't control, that they didn't do anything, they stagnated. They were worrying about the latest rumours – ‘I've heard it's that but maybe it's this or it could be this’. And I think in business, you need to not get distracted by things you can't control, focus on your core, focus on your added value, and manage the things you can't control by putting in place strategies to minimise the risk. Small business owners are so accustomed to planning ahead but without a lot of concrete information that's been difficult to do. Will: I'm not sure I agree. With a small business, you're more flexible than a bigger business, you're much more nimble. You have a tremendous advantage against some of the bigger players because you can adjust and you're smaller. I think it's not straightforward. It is possible to be able to try and mitigate those risks. And there aren't that many of them. Clearly Brexit is one, FX is another, trade tariffs is a third, but there aren't that many. And there's some good advice out there to support you. I know that Brompton has been open about being against planned obsolescence. This is where a company will manufacture a product so that it is unusable after a couple of years [or a certain period time], which is long enough where somebody can develop a connection with the product, but not so short that they get disengaged from the company and never buy from them again, there's regular income for that company. Phones are especially notorious for this practice. My question to you is that if a customer is only going to buy one Brompton bike for life, how do you maintain brand loyalty from customers? Will: The way you can maintain brand loyalty from customers is to give them a product that they may need to buy once in their life. Capitalism has done some amazing things – brought people out of poverty, it’s brought health, it’s brought education, but it has come at a cost to our planet. And certainly, in the last 50 years, increasingly. So, we have to rethink how we engage with consumerism and how we buy things and how we reuse things and don't just buy and chuck away and just, we're sucking value out of our planet, which our planet can't sustain. Apart from the fact that the customer must prefer the product they've had for a long time. If you've got some pots and pans that came from your granny or your parents or an old jacket or anything that's had longevity, you cherish it because it's given so much to and if you can keep it working for as long as possible, that makes total sense to me. Coming back to brand loyalty, there are things we can do to engage with our customers where they're having fun. We do races all round the world, not the last 12 months, but we do activities, we do events. And we want people to have fun, and this year with a fair wind we’ll make 70,000 bikes. I mean, they're like eight and a half billion people in the world of which nearly over 50 per cent live in cities. I mean, we haven't even started, the opportunities are immense. We want to create things, then actually what we want to do is when it's finished, which we're not out yet, we should be able to take the product back, recycle it and start all over again and have a full circular economy. Anna: Is that something that you're planning to do in future? Wil: Definitely. We need we need to do that, because there will come a point where the bikes that we were making 20 years ago, in some cases 15 years ago, have come to the end of their life, at which point for those bikes, we should be able to bring them back, take them apart for recycling, then round we go again. I've read that your marketing budget isn't huge, either. Will: I think the experience that a customer has with your product, too often, businesses are obsessed with selling you something. But that's not how you build a brand. A brand isn't what you feel when you bought it, you can buy anything. And the moment you buy and you have this sort of rush of, ‘Whoopee isn't this fantastic?’ The question is, go back to that same customer in two years’ time and say, you know that £100 you spent or that £300 you spent, was it worth it? And, sadly, in most cases against you might have never been used, or yeah, it was brilliant for about six months, and then it bust or something went wrong. There aren’t many things that that we absolutely cherish and love. I think the scope for us to be delivering a useful product, it's not just about buying, it's about looking after the customer for the life of the product. Things need looking after, which is why we have put in a lot of energy. If you like, our marketing budget goes into looking after the customers we already have – that's the most effective marketing budget. If the customers that you have really love their product, and when things go wrong, which they do, we look after them as best we can, then that's the best marketing you can get. So, spend your money on warranty or on customer service, customer support. And then when that's all perfect, you might have a little bit left over for doing some proactive marketing. But often people they forget about are the customer, they just want to go out and do this trend or get more new customers, forgetting about the ones they’ve already got. To round off, I'd like to talk a little bit about manufacturing in the UK. For a long time now it's dwindled, but then others have said, ‘Well, the UK is so innovative and it's still a very strong player in the manufacturing industry.’ In your view, where do you see it going in the next few years? Will: I think there is so much potential to manufacture in the UK, simply because the barriers to entry to doing efficient lean manufacturing are so much lower than they used to be. When I was at university, which is increasingly becoming quite a long time ago – Anna: Oh, I know the feeling! Will: Yeah! If you wanted to design something like a car, you needed a computer that filled up a room and they cost, in today's money, millions of pounds. So, the only companies that could afford the technology to allow you to design effectively were the Fords or the massive companies in the world. But you can buy a computer and start doing 3D design, you can get things printed in 3D in metal. If anything, manufacture’s become entrepreneurial again, because if you come up with an idea, if you can design it, you can print it, you can prove it, you can go on to social media, and then you can raise the money to get started. There's so much potential. The real sense of pride comes from, the reason that it's so satisfying with manufacture, is you see you’re creating something. It's that sense of creation, it's like growing plants – you're seeing something happen and come alive in front of you. You're creating something tangible – that's really, really satisfying. We've been encouraged and told that everything is on a computer and it's all noughts and ones. Actually, it’s the innate sense of pride about something tangible that's going out the door. I think actually the opportunities for it, not just in the UK but globally for manufacturing. Manufacturing doesn't need to be where there's cheap labour. Manufacturing is where there are the best ideas and robotics, semi automation, 3D printing, the cost of software and the ability to design, meaning the best ideas can sprout anywhere in the world, and you can manufacture locally, where the brains are. Anna: It would be a bit like, since the rise of social media and blogging, we've seen content creation go more into the individual’s hands, you feel like manufacturing can go from larger companies to individuals. Will: Definitely. It's a really positive thing because of disruption. I mean, if you look at things about flying taxis, people coming up, there are like 50,60,100 different companies around the world, all coming up with their different flying taxis. It was unthinkable 25 years ago, because it just wasn't possible for small businesses or small groups of individuals to try and come up with something so revolutionary, it would only be a LES four-digit or Nissan, or something – forget it. Yet, all these start-ups are doing it, because the whole engineering and manufacturing has been broken down and it makes it much more accessible. And if your idea is strong enough, if your passion burns bright enough, you can do it. Anna: Well, on that rather inspirational note, I'll leave it there. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Will. Will: Anna, it's my pleasure. Thank you for asking me. You can find out more about Brompton Bikes at brompton.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for articles on business succession and international trade. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.    

"All roads lead to Hollywood" as hosts Bobby and Kristina discuss 1983's Marilyn: An American Fable on the season one premiere of My Favorite Flop.   ABOUT MARILYN: AN AMERICAN FABLE Inspired by the life of celebrity Marilyn Monroe, Marilyn: An American Fable takes a highly fictionalized look at Hollywood’s legendary bombshell while also maintaining its supposed authenticity. (The show was apparently “authorized” and endorsed by Lee Strasberg’s wife, Anna) It was one of two musicals about the star to open that year alone, and one of at least five that have been created since her death. The show features a book by Patricia Michaels with music and lyrics by Jeanne Napoli, Doug Frank, Gary Portnoy, Beth Lawrence, Norman Thalheimer, James Komack, Wally Harper, and David Zippel. Between sabotaged sets, a fired director, and a leading lady replaced just ten days before its first preview, this show made it to opening night with even more baggage than the real-life Marilyn carried with her during her actual life. The show shuttered after only 17 performances and became largely forgotten until it became a footnote in the pilot of NBC’s SMASH in 2012.   Original Broadway Cast Alyson Reed as Norma Jean/Marilyn Monroe Kristi Coombs as Young Norma Jean Peggy Blue, Michael Kubula, and T.A. Stephens as Destiny Scott Bakula as Joe DiMaggio George Dvorsky as Jim Dougherty Will Gerard as Arthur Miller Melissa Bailey as Louella Mary Testa as Hedda Steve Shocket as Strasberg Willy Falk as Tommy Lise Lang as Sis Debi Monahan as Pat Ty Crowley as Acting Coach Gary-Michael Davies as Director Deborah Dotson as Hairdresser Ed Forsyth as Camera Man Mitchell Greenberg as Agent James Haskins as Photographer Alan North as Studio Head Michael Rivera as Designer Dooba Wilkins as Coach Mark Ziebell as Serviceman Jodi Benson as Factory Girl Eileen Casey, Andrew Charles, Kevin Cort, Mark Esposito, Marcial Gonzalez, Christine Gradl, and Marguerite Lowell as Ensemble

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

In this episode I chat to Jenny, businesswoman, investor and former Dragon. We discuss tips for investment in the time of COVID-19, exit planning and whether your business should still be accepting cash. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital and choosing the right payment system. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Jenny Campbell's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Jenny Campbell, businesswoman, speaker, investor and former Dragon. Rather than going down the traditional education route, Jenny left school at 16 to become a cash counter and cashpoint filler. She worked her way up in the banking world and by the age of 23 she earned her banking qualifications and a Chartered Institute of Bankers prize. Her first taste of running a business was when she bought RBS-owned cash machine firm, Hanco, which she rebranded as YourCash Europe. At the time, Hanco had expanded too quickly and was making a loss. The company underwent a major operational restructure overseen by Jenny. In 2016 she sold the business for £50m. During her time on Dragon’s Den, Jenny invested in companies including Didsbury Gin, Look After My Bills, Driven Media and Carun UK. These days, she is the vice chair of the Prince’s Trust Enterprise Fellowship Programme and supports the Young Enterprise and the New Entrepreneurs Foundation. She’s also a dog breeder and an accredited breed judge. Anna: Hi Jenny. Jenny: Hi. Anna: How are you doing? Jenny: I’m really good, thank you. Really good. Anna: Great. OK, let’s get cracking. One of your mantras is to live by corporate standards but breathe like an entrepreneur. Tell us a bit more about what you mean by that. Jenny: Yeah, that really came out of the time when I was taking over the cash machine business then owned by RBS. I found the business to have got enormous growing pains [from] when it was incorporated in 2000 and sold to RBS in 2004. It had grown enormously fast and it did have an impressive customer and asset base, but it had grown up on very simple – if any – policies, procedures, people, codes of conduct, etc. So, the business I came to in 2006 was in quite a lot of chaos, to be honest. But I found that all the skills I’d learned over my banking career, which you don’t really appreciate at the time, but I could apply them to this business, particularly around change management, turnaround scenarios, risk management, process mapping – all those corporate things. I could apply them to this business and that’s what got me through the first two years in getting it ship shape. It was losing a lot of money at the time and by the time we got two or three years down the path it was breaking even and that lead into the management buyout. On reflection, when it came to selling the business, before that even became a management team buyout, I said to RBS, ‘Look, you’ve helped put the corporate procedures into this business but it now needs to have its entrepreneurial wings in order for it to be nimble and compete against its competitors in the UK.’ It’s important for a business of that size to have corporate standards, but it also needed to be nimble in terms of decision-making and innovation and product development, which we weren’t at that stage by still being part of a bank, due to how bureaucratic that can be in a big corporate.       How do you introduce ‘entrepreneurial wings’, so to speak? Jenny: Start with the people. One of my big transformations was the people – the quality of the people, the culture of the people. I turned over a lot of people in the early days, those who didn’t have the right skills or attitude to drive the business forward. I created a real people culture in the business: work hard, play hard, lots of rewards for delivering performance, lots of fun as well. And the ability for the staff to feel they had their own initiative to drive the business forward [was important]. You could always put your hand up to suggest this or get on with doing things and mistakes were made – you wouldn’t get berated for that – it was, ‘Get up, you’ve grazed your knees, let’s move on’. It was a real ‘can do, will do, want to’ attitude in the business and we lived it and breathed it from the top, right the way down.      On your time in Dragon’s Den, perhaps it was clearer that you’d come from this corporate background and moved up in the banking world, as opposed to starting up a business from scratch like some of the other Dragons and the other businesses coming in. What do you feel your experience brought to the table over the other Dragons who had started their businesses from nothing? Jenny: I came to pure entrepreneurship myself later in life when I went to Hanco (which then became YourCash), so I was in my mid-40s by then. But as I reflected on how I turned from corporate career to entrepreneur, some of my reflections were, firstly, around my childhood where my grandparents were all entrepreneurs – builders, printers, etc. in my local town, so I came from quite an entrepreneurial background. Yes, I went into a profession, but that was seen in those generations as safer and more secure and you’ve got the pensions and all of that good stuff. But I also dealt with entrepreneurs almost every day in my banking career, just on the other side of the desk. One of my roles was as a business relationship manager and I had 200 clients out in the community. Everything from famers to builders to lorry driver to retailers. I was working alongside those entrepreneurs for all of my banking career, so I just felt like I’d stepped from one side of the desk to the other, to be honest – and it’s in my DNA. What did you find was the biggest difference of going from one world into the other?     Jenny: Freedom, scary, exciting. You realise that there’s a lot that rests on your shoulders. The first month after we’d bought the business out, instead of me receiving a salary cheque on the 18th, I had to think about paying a quarter of a million pounds’ worth of wages every month and you feel responsible for people’s homes and families and that sort of thing. But equally, all of the freedom that comes with that and the responsibility to keep that business going and grow it.     Coming back to Dragon’s Den. Look After My Bills, in your own words, ‘negotiated hard’. What advice would you have for business owners who are looking for funding but are that sort of position? What negotiation tips do you have and what would win you over? Jenny: I think what wins me and many investors over is that, besides investing in that business and that product, you are ultimately investing in that person or persons. With the people standing in front of you, I’ve got to get a rapport with them straight away – that I admire them, I believe them, I’m confident that they can deliver on their proposal. The boys, Will and Henry from Look After My Bills, did negotiate hard, but that showed me that they had the experience to do that. I admire that. One of my other entrepreneurs accepted my offer before I’d even finished making it, but he was much younger and much more inexperienced. Will and Henry did a great job of negotiating and Tej (Lalvani) and I got a very small slice of Look After My Bills, but it proved to be a great investment as they sold to GoCompare ten months later and we got a very nice return on a very small investment. Anna: I think it’s interesting that because of them not budging much on their offer, Peter said that it shows a certain level of naivety, so it must be quite different between investors.     Jenny: Yes, but there’s quite a bit of gameplay in the negotiations – you’ve all got to play your own part. There’s admiration behind that hard negotiation stance as well. As an entrepreneur you’ve got to have some emotional intelligence as to where that tipping point is with the investor. You can push them so far, but you’ve got to realise where you’ll lose that investor, where they just going to sign out and say, ‘I’m out’.     Let’s come back to raising finance. Of course, we’re going through a difficult time at the moment – this is the first of the remote recordings we’re doing because of COVID-19. What advice do you have about raising finance in particularly tough times such as these?   Jenny: Is it any different in these times to pre-COVID? If anything, there are more options because of Microbusiness Bounce Back Loans etc around, so my advice is probably the same: cover a lot of bases in looking for those options. First of all, think about the structure of what it is that you’re looking for – are your able to take any debt into the business? That’ll save you giving away equity. Equally, sometimes it’s a strategic thing to find an equity investor because you get smart investors in the business who will help to propel your business further than if you were trying to do it through the existing equity structure. It’s always a balance of what your business can take and what it needs and that strategic aspect. I’m working with one of my businesses now on doing our first fundraise. I’m just educating them on taking those steps really carefully, to find the right structure of equity and debt and, crucially, the right people to come into the business. I always say to them, ‘This is like a snooker game: it’s not just about getting the first red ball down, but it’s about getting the black ball down, which is your exit.’ Every step is fundraise is important – you must think about how that impacts the next step and your eventual exit. But I think all those usual funding routes are there and, if anything, there is pent up demand from private equity and VCs to get money invested right now. Has COVID-19 affected the way that you invest in or the companies that you’d be interested in investing in now? Jenny: I don’t think it’s affected the way that I invest. Apart from not meeting in person, we’ve all got very used to tiled Zoom screens or Teams or Google. We’ve all got used to those virtual meetings, so the way in which I invest has not changed. Maybe where I invest has changed. Some areas you might have thought of investing in pre-COVID, but in post-COVID they’re either not the right areas or there are certainly better areas which have capitalised on COVID. I always say that wherever there are challenges, there are opportunities, and it’s just watching which ones will rise out of this. My Didsbury Gin business pivoted into hand sanitiser and they’ve done a fantastic job. Did I think I’d ever be invested in hand sanitiser? No! But it was the right thing to do and they’ve done very well. Anna: It’s been very much extremes – either a company has done very well or struggled quite significantly. Jenny: But that’ll be the true test of the entrepreneur in dealing with that. My eldest son has three restaurants in London, and it has not been an easy time. However, he’s probably going to come out of this leaner, fitter, stronger and with a different strategic path, which will actually be a better one. You as an entrepreneur have personally got to have the resilience, the foresight and the vision to deal with that. And that’s what the key strength of an entrepreneur is. Anna: And going digital has helped a lot of businesses. Ones that didn’t have a website before are very quickly learning and moving online. Jenny: Yes – you’ve got to go where the consumer is going to go which is a huge shift to online as you say.    I’d like to ask a couple of questions about your views in business. I’ve read that your plan wasn’t to become a business owner, rather, you ‘take things when they arise’ and when your children were young, you’d ‘just think about the year ahead’, contrary to popular business advice of planning one, three, five years in advance. What’s your view on planning vs spontaneity in business? Jenny: I mean, I always say that when I was 16, 18, 25, I didn’t really see much further ahead than the next year. As you get older, you tend to plan your runway out a bit more. But it’s always a balance for a business owner of never losing sight of today and the detail you need to do of today while balancing that with a vision of the future. And that’s a tricky thing sometimes – you can be lost in the weeds on a day-to-day basis and never have that time to think about the future. But you can find different places to do that future thinking. I remember when I was very busy in YourCash with the turnaround work. Where my vision and strategy used to come from was when I was on the running machine at the gym in the evening or in the bath. I used to come back fuelled with what we need to do differently, so you just need to find those spaces to let your head clear and think about the future of the business. You must do that and not just be lost in the day-to-day. Now I think I plan much further ahead, hence it’s actually driven my exit of YourCash because I’d been at the business for ten years. And I had half an eye on where cash was going as well in the future which proved to be quite prophetic. And equally I wanted another ten years in business doing other things, so focusing on the end game is quite important.      My next question was going to be about your exit from YourCash. Talk us through your exit plan – when did it begin, how did it unfold, did it change? Jenny: When you reflect on these things, again, I think it happened on the day I did the management buyout in 2010. The reason for that was as soon as the business became independent from RBS, I straight away started getting courted by other independents to amalgamate with them, so I realised from day one of year one that there was an opportunity for a trade sale. But I knew it wasn’t going to be right then when I put all of my energy and passion into buying this business out and mortgaged my home and I was on a journey and I was going to sell at an optimum time. But knowing those courtiers were out there, I played that dance with them for five years and it eventually reeled one of them in there for an exit. So there, you can see I was planning, even in 2010, to exit, probably five to six years down the path, which is what I did. I think in any market, I’ve seen in the supermarkets, in industry, etc. I’d say all businesses compete on the ground. But at top level, CEOs all meet each other at conventions and industry gatherings, and all have quite a professional and grown up relationship. I always had those relationships with the bosses of the other businesses and there were always muted conversations, seeing if there were any areas of cooperation and synergies between us. There’s a lot of dancing around handbags before you come to the formal marriage. Anna: I suppose it’s like networking of any kind, isn’t it? You’ve got to build it up quite slowly. Jenny: And it’s important to do that. That’s a really good point – I had extensive networks across my industry, not just in the UK but across the globe. I would take plane trips across the globe to go to certain conventions to make sure I had face time with people, so I was out there and present and had a really good black book.     Finally, given your background with YourCash, what do you make of cash vs contactless, especially in this COVID-19 landscape? Is it still worth it for businesses to accept cash? Jenny: Before I sold the business, there was also a challenge externally around the future of cash. And I think cash is still here for another generation in this country. It’s very entrenched in this country as it is in other countries such as Ireland and Germany. Yet if you look at other countries like the Nordics, they’ve been almost cashless for a very long time so where do we sit in all of this? I still think there’s a place for cash in the UK for a while because I don’t think we have all of the systems to donate to charities, to pay for certain things for the elderly and the disadvantaged, so all of the systems aren’t there yet to digitally support moving to totally non-cash. I do think there is a place for it and, to that end, that it’s important for retailers and businesses to accept cash, because not everyone is able or ready to move to digital. The consumers have to be educated and cajoled but not forced, if you know what I mean. Yeah, of course it’s important in terms of budgeting or for people who may not be best able to manage their money. Do you think we’ll ever go completely cashless and if so, at what point? Jenny: [laughs] Crystal ball again… I think we will, it depends how you define cashless, if you mean totally cashless. Surely in the next 25 years we’d go cashless, I would’ve thought, providing all of the systems are there to cope with that. But if you look at the young people of today, they just don’t carry cash – at all. And I myself would have always had cash with me and never have I used Apple Pay so much as in the past three months, and I’m much more comfortable with it now. That has forced buying habits but equally, I doubt very much that older people have changed their buying habits and the disadvantaged need to work with cash as well. Anna: Well, I’ll wrap up there unless there’s anything you’d like to add. Jenny: No, thank you for letting me come on your podcast. I’m delighted to come on any time and have a chat and happy to do it any other time you wish. Anna: Thank you for coming on the podcast. You can find out more about Jenny at jennybcampbell.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on raising capital and choosing payment systems. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Guess what Space Cadets? It's time for a NEWS BLAST! Did you know the UAE has a Space Program, let alone a Mars Orbiter? Come hang out with us while we take you through an overview of the Hope Probe! Note from Anna: It's Jim Bridenstine not Jim Birdenstine. I always get that wrong. My apologies to Mr. Bridenstine and all the members of the JBFC (http://jimbridenstinefan.club/) Music from filmmusic.io "Tyrant" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) License: CC BY (creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) Anna’s Sources: 2, Jeff Foust — October, and Jeff Foust. “United Arab Emirates to Establish Human Spaceflight Program.” SpaceNews, 30 Jan. 2019, spacenews.com/united-arab-emirates-to-establish-human-spaceflight-program/. Calypsu. “Home.” Home | Emirates Mars Mission, www.emiratesmarsmission.ae/. Clark, Stephen. “United Arab Emirates Successfully Sends Its First Mission toward Mars.” Spaceflight Now, 19 July 2020, spaceflightnow.com/2020/07/19/united-arab-emirates-successfully-sends-its-first-mission-toward-mars/. Gibney, Elizabeth. “How a Small Arab Nation Built a Mars Mission from Scratch in Six Years.” Nature News, Nature Publishing Group, 8 July 0AD, 2020, www.nature.com/immersive/d41586-020-01862-z/index.html. Lunsford, Christine. “Hazzaa Ali Almansoori: The 1st Emirati Astronaut's Space Station Mission in Photos.” Space.com, Space, 26 Sept. 2019, www.space.com/first-uae-astronaut-emirati-hazzaa-ali-almansoori--photos.html. Strickland, Ashley. This Summer, Multiple Spacecraft Are Launching to Mars. Here's Why. 29 July 2020, www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/world/mars-mission-launches-summer-2020-scn/index.html. Tanegashima Space Center. 23 Aug. 2020, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanegashima_Space_Center. Williams , Dr. David R, and E Bell. “Emirates Mars Mission (Hope).” NASA Space Science Data Coordinated Archive, NASA, 14 May 2020, nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/spacecraft/display.action?id=EMM-HOPE. Henna’s Sources: Amiri, Sarah, and EMM Team. “EMIRATES HOPE MARS MISSION (EMM) SCIENCE OVERVIEW.” Jet Propulsion Laboratory , NASA, mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/2019-07/Agenda/08_EMM%20Overview%20Mars%20Intl%20July%202019%20-%20MEPAG.pdf. “Emirates Mars Mission to Begin Journey to the Red Planet.” CU Boulder Today, 16 July 2020, www.colorado.edu/today/2020/07/15/emirates-mars-mission-begin-journey-red-planet. “Emirates Mars Mission.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 20 Aug. 2020, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Mars_Mission. “Hydrazine Thrusters.” Monopropellant Hydrazine Thrusters, www.space-propulsion.com/spacecraft-propulsion/hydrazine-thrusters/index.html. “Mohammed Bin Rashid Space Centre.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 22 Aug. 2020, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Rashid_Space_Centre. Moukhallati, Dana. “Emirati 'Hope' Probe Heads for Mars.” Phys.org, Phys.org, 14 July 2020, phys.org/news/2020-07-emirati-probe-mars.html. Robert Sanders, Media relations| July 19, and Robert Sanders. “Emirates Launches First Mars Probe with Help from UC Berkeley.” Berkeley News, 29 July 2020, news.berkeley.edu/2020/07/19/emirates-launches-first-mars-probe-with-help-from-uc-berkeley/. “Sarah Al Amiri.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 21 Aug. 2020, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Al_Amiri. Seeker. “The UAE’s Hope Probe Will Make History As It Heads to Mars.” Youtube, www.youtube.com/watch?v=n65UpNa21V0. “الاهداف العلمية لمشروع الامارات لاستكشاف المريخ.” وكالة الإمارات للفضاء, www.space.gov.ae/Page/20121/20250/The-Science-of-the-Emirates-Mars-Mission.

  13 year old Arthur, and his mum, Anna, join Dr Helen and Marianne for this first episode in our Young Voices podcast special. The pair share the two sides of this transition story, from Arthur coming out at age seven, through the day-to-day trials and tribulations of any normal teenager, to his aspirations of one day becoming an Olympian. Together, Arthur and his mum demonstrate that his being trans is the least interesting part about him. If you have been affected by any of the topics discussed in our podcast, and would like to get in touch, please contact us via the Help Centre. You can also contact us on social media where you will find us at @GenderGP on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. We are always happy to accept ideas for future shows, so if there is something in particular you would like us to discuss, or a specific guest you would love to hear from, let us know. Your feedback is really important to us. If you could take a minute or two to leave us a review and rating for the podcast on your favourite podcast app, it will help others to discover us. Links: Mermaids http://mermaidsuk.org.uk/   The GenderGP Podcast Young Voices. Raising a trans teen   Hello, this is Dr Helen Webberley. Welcome to our GenderGP Podcast, where we will be discussing some of the issues affecting the trans and non-binary community in the world today, together with my co-host Marianne Oakes, a trans woman herself, and our head of therapy.   Dr Helen Webberley: This is the first of our series on young people and bringing to life some of our younger trans members of the trans community who’ve been gracious and generous enough to give us their time to tell you what it means to them to be trans and how it's affected their life in good ways or maybe some bad ways, maybe how it’s affected their families. So really, really, really excited to welcome Arthur and his mum today. So, Arthur, thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to throw you right into the deep and say tell us all about you and your mum. Hi, mum. Arthur: Well, I do karate. (unclear 1:11). Anna: How old were you when you remembered being trans? And you said, I’ve always been. And that's about right. It was so long ago, cause how old were you when you identified? It was about seven. Arthur: Seven, six. Anna: Six or seven years old when Arthur drew a picture and tried, and he didn't have the word like. Obviously, he didn't have the words. And I didn’t know the terminology either or anything. And he drew pictures. So he was about seven. So we've been in services since then. Since we came with yourselves, the stress of this beast, it's been gone, hasn't it? So you've forgotten about being trans, you’re just Arthur, aren’t you? Arthur: Yeah. That makes sense. Marianne Oakes: Can I just—what was your journey to finding GenderGP, if that’s not too big a question. It sounds like it was with the NHS before, would that be correct? Anna: Yes, Mermaids. Arthur: I got my hormone blocker through the NHS. Anna: It was a bit of a battle to get it, though. Arthur: I wanted testosterone. I needed it, I believe. But I couldn't, because of how old do you have to be for the NHS? Older. Anna: Fifteen, sixteen. Arthur: Fifteen, yes. He was panic-stricken, weren’t you? And we saw the firm, but no, we found out about GenderGP when we met Helen actually at one of the Mermaids residentials. And Mermaids are fantastic in the early days. We haven’t been for a few years, but we just said I think we're ready to check back in with them because I think he’s ready to find out more information about all the stuff that is coming up in the next few years and questions for other teenagers. So,

In this episode I chat to Sherry Coutu, a serial entrepreneur, angel investor and one of the leading names in the UK digital sector. We talk about tips for investment pitches, time management and difficulties in the tech sector. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read Sherry Coutu's podcast interview instead? Please note that this podcast was recorded before COVID-19 became prevalent in the UK. Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Sherry Coutu, a serial entrepreneur, investor and advisor. She’s also on the board of Founders4Schools, Workfinder, Raspberry Pi, the Department of Culture Media and Sport (DCMS), Pearson and the London Stock Exchange. We’ll be discussing the most common slip-ups that businesses make when pitching to investors and the most pressing issues in the digital sector. Anna: Hello, Sherry. Sherry: Hello. Anna: It’s lovely to meet you. How are you doing? Sherry: Yeah, I’m very well, thank you. Good to see you. Great. OK, I’d like to start off by going back to the beginning. As the intro suggests, your background is in digital and tech. You were a developer and programmer before you became an entrepreneur and an angel investor. What was it like being a female developer at the time you started out? Sherry: Well, I’ve never been a male developer. I think I came to it thinking it wasn’t that unusual being a female developer. I had studied at EF International and some other women had gone into digital when I was at the London School of Economics studying so it didn’t seem that unusual. I’d joined a large consulting company and that large consulting company had a number of women in that intake and we were all programming. It didn’t seem that abnormal to me. I was doing things that I thought were interesting and I was learning skills that I didn’t find that difficult and that I enjoyed, so it was pretty easy by and large. I didn’t know at the time how unusual what I was doing was or would be seen afterwards. When did that become apparent? Sherry: I don’t know. Again, I don’t approach things on a gender basis. I saw other people that I liked who were doing work that I enjoyed, and we had projects which were interesting. When did it become apparent? You do sort of notice that you’re often the only woman in the room, and it was probably afterwards that I thought, ‘Oh, that’s odd. It’s no longer 50/50 – it’s a lot less than that’. It didn’t bother me that much – I was pretty absorbed in what I was doing. It was really interesting work. It’s a good way to look at it and some women thrive on that kind of atmosphere as well. It’s a similar situation for investors. What were the most common pitching mistakes you saw from businesses pitching to you? Sherry: Well, I think there are a couple – I was thinking about your question earlier. And I think there's a couple of common issues. One is not researching. I'm a member of the Cambridge Angels and have been members of HBS Angels as well. And if an investor comes to you and they haven't researched who they’re in the room with, that is really common blooper, and it's not a sensible one. I think if I had advice for them, it's to research who you're pitching to and know what's in their portfolio and to know what they've what they've done before. I think, having somebody explain to me something that, clearly, if they'd looked at my background, they would understand that I knew. It's a waste of their time, whereas you can get into more detailed things right away otherwise. The other issue, something that is unforgivable to me as an investor is not understanding who your customer is. Or demonstrating your keenness to delight that customer. A lack of focus on that is really annoying to me. I think the only reason we are given opportunities as entrepreneurs is because we can delight customers and create things that will help them in their life in a multitude of ways. And I think a lack of customer focus is annoying to me. And it's usually makes for a fairly short meeting. And it definitely means that I won't follow up because, it's like, well, why are you doing this? The first question I'm often asking is why are you trying to solve this problem? Who are your customers? What does this do for them? Yeah, exactly. So, encouraging better work experience at school is a key focus for you especially just now, what kind of barriers do you think that small employers face when taking on work experience pupils? Sherry: Work experience for people in school and in university is something that I'm really keen on. I don't think of it as barriers. I think all small businesses have projects that they need to get done. You can ask a full-time permanent employee who's already working full tilt to do a project, or you can think, ‘Are there ways that I can get other people from outside my company that might have a fresh view, who I don't have to offer a permanent job to, to get this project?’ To me, the biggest issue there is as a small business person is finding people to do those extra projects that I really would like to do for my customers. Maybe it's so that I can be more obsessed with my customers and get them more focusing on a new product development or customers in a new country or in a new city. But I think that current students at university, supplemented possibly by students doing their A Levels, are a great way of getting projects done quickly and efficiently. And hey, you might even be able to hire the student who is doing the work for you afterwards. But we all have projects, we've all got dozens of projects. Maybe it's sitting down and thinking of which of the projects I have that would be suitable for five students doing a month or five students doing a couple of weeks, breaking it down into something that can be accomplished that will be meaningful to me as a business. Taking it back to the start, for an employer that has never done work experience before, has never offered a kind of programme of sorts – Sherry: They don't need a programme. They've got projects all the time. And we all have projects. I think there are big company ways of approaching work experience and there are small company ways of approaching work experience. The big company ways tend to be structured programmes that happen in June or July. And they might be quite cumbersome on the company. What I've seen work brilliantly for small companies, small and medium sized companies and start-ups and scale-ups are joining project teams, or all working on a project that the employer wants to get done that can't get done any other way. And that means that for the supervision of that project, you've got four people on it, but you put together the brief that might take you a tiny bit of time, or you could use Workfinder, we've got more than 100 briefs that are appropriate to ask students at university. You could take one of our briefs of, well, you might be thinking about this, here's how you do this type of project. You brief them on the first day, you touch base with them for half an hour just to make sure that they're going along the right path for the length of the project, and then you get them to present the project view at the end. I think it's great. And then you use it, because it's a project that will help you do something more for your customers that you haven't been able to do, because everybody's really busy. I mean, we always are pressed for time in small businesses and large businesses. Yeah, absolutely. What's the kind of state of things at the moment in terms of small businesses taking on work experiences? Is it quite common? Or could it be done more widely? Sherry: Well, I would love it to happen more widely. But it happens more often in start-ups and scale-ups than it does in large companies. We published this at the Gallup Institute earlier this year, that it was it was more likely that they had taken on students both at university and at school to do those extra projects in small and medium-sized companies. For me, I've got endless projects. I'd rather have a constant stream of people. And I think the other one of the other barriers is that large companies tend to do it in the summer, but when we spoke to small and medium sized companies, they had projects all year round, and they didn't want to be constrained to having to do it in July or something like that. With lots of other small companies that we work with, it worked fine around it Founders4Schools fitted in through throughout the year so that it works better with them. Anna: I suppose they have the advantage as well because They don't have the processes and the departments to go through that larger businesses do. Sherry: Yeah, exactly. And they may not and they'll have urgent projects that pop up, maybe it's a pitch, maybe it's a pitch for a customer and what you need is somebody to ask, ‘Well, can you do a bunch of customer research for me?’ We don't know these people, use Google, use LinkedIn. Yeah, help me put together this pitch. But there's lots of really good projects that help people who are at school and university understand what work experience is. It's deeply meaningful to the company, it also gives them a proper sense of what it would be like to work for that company. But it's risk-free because maybe it's a week, maybe it's two weeks, maybe it's a month and they can choose, they get the project done, they decide if they love it, or they hate it. If they love it, they can keep on talking if they don't love it, they can try different project and a different type of company and see if they like that industry better. Actually, as lately pertains to your expertise and for companies in the digital sector, and they're experiencing a lot of upheaval at the moment – politically, financially in so many different ways. What would you say are the most prominent issues affecting the digital sector right now? Sherry: Well, most recently GDPR was a change. I think was a change for the good because it protected consumers and customers and made sure that all companies were being mindful of whose data it was that they had the privilege of being a custodian of. So, I think I think there's that. In the UK, I'm not going to say that word [Brexit], but it's been harder. It's been harder to retain people from Europe for reasons that are outside of our control, and that's tricky. Attracting people who have the right skill set is also really difficult because there's been a sequencing issue with small companies, we create lots of jobs, but they are jobs in agile management and data science. Schools and universities aren't yet churning out people who have those skills. And I think solving that issue so that we small digital companies don't suffer from a skill shortage any longer is certainly very much on my mind. And I hope to make some contribution to that agenda. Anna: It feeds back into the work experience as well, doesn't it? You teach them as early as possible and let them know what opportunities are out there. Sherry: Yeah. And I think it’s understanding that you're not going to have the same job for 30 years, and actually, that really sounds quite boring anyway. Let’s sort of just assume that we need the framework for working here on this type of project for this type of company for a period of time and then we'll move on and we'll do something else. The needs of the customers will change. And our needs as we go through our own lifetime change as well. Often we'll work full time, we might work very flexibly when we're having children. And then once they're off at university, we might go back up to full-time or, like me, choose a portfolio of things, which is like having a bunch of part-time jobs, all of which I love. But I love the flexibility of this. If you listen to LinkedIn, the average person now has 25 jobs between graduation and retirement, seven different identifiable career streams. What's your next career stream? I mean, it's kind of neat when you think about it that way. What would you say to small business owners who maybe have trouble establishing what skills their workforce needs, and maybe the resources well, to provide them? Sherry: Well, I think there are some great online resources. For staff I use LinkedIn Learning quite a lot. For coding skills, there's Coursera, there's Udacity, there's Futurelearn, there's a lot of free online courses that allow us to upskill our staff. I think we all need to be learning all of the time. If we don't invest in ourselves as the leader of a small business and we don't invest in our staff then well, it might be harder to retain people, it might also be harder to fulfil those customer orders because they'll be asking us for stuff that we don't know how to do. I think I a commitment to continued learning and allowing and encouraging creativity in ourselves and in the people that work for us as a culture of learning is really important. Actually, now that we're touching on it. You fit a lot into your days and obviously, there's the continual upskilling as well. What kind of time management tips do you have for our listeners who may be struggling and a bit stretched? Sherry: I'm sure anybody who knows me doesn't necessarily think that I'm great at managing my time. But I try to. I think if you're a portfolio, it's quite helpful because you compartmentalise things and you're context switching. That keeps you fresh. It also keeps you managing quite closely. Something that I have used for a long time is trying to be at home 20 out of 30 nights, especially when the kids were at home and younger, being at home 20 to 30 nights a month. And if you've got that rule that you will be at home by 6pm or earlier if you can, that allows you to show the commitment that you have to your family and to yourself. I try to exercise as much as I should. I'm not sure I think probably in the last month, I have definitely broken my rule. But I've got I've got training set up in January, February and March and it's scheduled into my diary. I try to schedule things. I do try to review on a weekly and a monthly basis. Am I content with how I'm spending my time? And when I went to the rule of 20 or 30 nights at home by 6pm, I found that because there's so many interesting things going on all the time. And I wanted to do everything I literally did find myself out every night. And then you think, ‘My God, I haven't really seen my children. I haven't spent any time with my husband, and I don't feel good about that.’ And so I just sort of put a hard and fast rule and it's like, nope, this is how I'm going to do it from now and it works. Are you working when you're home at 6pm? Or is that a cut-off point when you stop working? Sherry: I'll stop working. Not necessarily for the day – I might go in and back on it between 10pm and 11pm and just sort of plan out the next day. I do tend to be crazily busy. Even if it's just planning out what you're supposed to wear, because you've got this little jingle jangle of meetings and you think, ‘Good Lord, what's going to navigate through that set of meetings of that day, what am I going to wear?’ Just sort of thinking about the how you're going to execute the next day, if it tends to be mixed up. I don't ever go to an office and sit at a desk. I think, ‘I'm going to be home with family. I'm not going to have my phone on, I'm going to focus,’ and that gives them the right message. And it also gives me the release that you need as a person from work. Do you rely more on people or tech to sort of help you organise your schedule? Sherry: Both. For the tech, I use calendar Google Calendar. I'm not making an advertisement for Google. But I think many small businesses use it rather than some of the more traditional ones. And if I'm meeting someone, I asked them to append in what the agenda is and what the papers are. My call forward file is not a physical call forward file that say, it's literally in the description of that. And I find that really helpful as I prepare for the meetings, I find the ability to invite people to meetings from within your diary. And then if you move it, they all get notified and you don't have to do all of that is really helpful. I do have an executive assistant (EA) who I adore and she's kind of a magician, because I tend to want to do too many things than might actually be possible, and she makes it a lot more possible than it might otherwise be. I do depend on her and enjoy the fact that she helps and is very au fait with and good at using technology as well, which is helpful to me. If you're a small business owner and you could have an entourage of sorts, what kind of people would you hire in terms of, say, a PA or an accountant? Sherry: Well, I would certainly use LinkedIn very aggressively. I probably am on LinkedIn two hours a day as I prepare for meetings as I research the people that I want to pitch these sorts of things are the people that I'm about to speak to. I think it's really important to use tools that are there. An accountant? Yes, you definitely need accountants. I think in small businesses, there are great part time accountants that you can that you can have. And I'm a real fan of those because you don't necessarily need a full-time one. And there's a lot of particularly women returners to work who have been full-time finance directors and they're there with kids and they want to work on a part-time basis. And I think they are a godsend to many, many, many small businesses. Anna: Seems to work for everybody, right? Sherry: Yeah, absolutely. You may be a small company of ten people, you might need someone who's doing finance a couple days a week well, you need somebody who's a returner, returning to work for that. And on PA I don't know if everybody needs me know, there's lots of people that I know that work in large tech companies that no longer have PAs there's many people who have the whole senior management team has a sort of shares in EA or a PA, I think many people and in fact, it's been shown that 65 per cent of those jobs have already disappeared because people are using technologies more aggressively. If you look at the research on what jobs are disappearing, sadly, PAs and EAS are definitely far less prevalent than they were five years ago, but I couldn't be without LinkedIn. I also use a service called Accompany which will sort of harvest your diary and then it'll give you notes about the backgrounds of the people that you're meeting the day before. And if you don't use it, you should use it because it's amazing. I find those I find those really, really helpful. Well, I realise you're busy lady, so I'll wrap up by coming back to your expertise as an investor. You were an early investor in firms like LoveFilm and Zoopla saw for new tech companies looking to pitch what would you be looking for in their pitch? Sherry: Well, for me, solving a problem that matters is the most important thing. I'm particularly interested in the future of work. It's been a real interest for 20 years that the skills crisis is getting worse. And I am interested in working with others to fix that problem, which I think is the number one problem that we have. I'm also very interested in the application of AI and ML in the sphere of health. And I think that, just around the corner, there are some great solutions to really irksome terrible problems of a health nature, that technology will help us solve. And people who are determined to solve those problems using technology will help themselves, so I'm particularly interested in those two areas. Some people shy away from them because they're complicated, and some people shy away from them because they're highly regulated. They're really important – the health of our citizens is really important, as is the ability to have the right skills so you can prosper and make a contribution to your community. I'm not that interested in hearing people pitch me on things other than those two sort of, they're fairly broad subjects. But those are those that what I'm really interested in and can be an active in what they call smart money, rather than just dumb money. I'm interested and can probably help in some ways as well. The health and wellness industry is massive. What would you say to entrepreneurs who are put off by a large amount of competition in the in the sphere? Sherry: Create a fantastic product that your customers love. That's way better than anything else, that they're either getting the way that, you know, 40 per cent of our GDP is controlled by companies that didn't exist five years ago. Think about that. What competition? There are really big issues that are absolutely unsolved. And we entrepreneurs, and the people who find entrepreneurs are the only ones who are going to solve it on the time on, on the timeframe that we've got available to us. So, I'd say, solve them. Do it. Anna: Fabulous. Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on podcast. Sherry: My pleasure. Thanks very much for having me and good luck with everything. Anna: You can find out more about Sherry at uk.linkedin.com/in/coutu. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital and managing your time. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode I meet Tim Campbell, an entrepreneur and the first winner of The Apprentice back in 2005. We discuss his views on apprenticeships and the idea behind one of his more unusual business ventures. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on apprenticeships and grants.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Tim Campbell's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Tim Campbell, an entrepreneur and the very first winner of The Apprentice back in 2005. Since working for Lord Sugar, Tim has launched Bright Ideas Trust, a charity for disadvantaged young entrepreneurs and Alexander Mann Solutions, a talent acquisition firm. We’ll be talking about what it was like to be in the first crop of candidates on The Apprentice and how to give interviewees useful, constructive feedback.   Anna: Hello Tim. Tim: Hi, how are you, Anna? Good? Anna: Yeah, very well, thanks. A bit of a grim day but doing alright. How are you?   Tim: Oh, if we didn’t have the weather to complain about, what would we have? Anna: Exactly! It’s the essence of being British. Tim: It is unfortunately, but let’s hope for better tidings to come. Anna: Awesome. Right, for a bit of context, we are recording in the Alexander Mann Solutions offices today – in a sound booth, which is very nice. Tim: It is indeed. But one of the interesting things that amazes me about London and is very exciting, is the juxtaposition between the old buildings we can see and the new cranes you can see everywhere.   Anna: Exactly, yeah. It’s wonderful seeing the architecture of the new vs the old. You wouldn’t think they work together, but they do. Tim: That’s the thing about London – we make it work. That sings to the essence and the entrepreneurial nature of individuals from the UK. My mum was an entrepreneur, but she didn’t call herself an entrepreneur. She was just making ends meet, as it were. A Jamaican immigrant to the country who had three children and brought them all up to be relatively successful. But she always underpinned that with working hard, going out and earning a living. And London has always facilitated that and I suppose the inspiration for me in a lot of the things I do is my mum in that she came over with all the skills and attributes but didn’t have the knowledge, contacts or mentors to be able to do that. Do you think your mum didn’t call herself an entrepreneur because she didn’t go through the formal avenues of having a grant or a mentor? Tim: Definitely. She just didn’t have time to worry about the nomenclature, she was just focused on the outputs and I think that one of the things we talk about with the people that we either mentor or support is to strip it down to its bare necessities. Lots of people are very interested in the successful outputs of getting in business. They want the money, they want the accolades, they want the title and we have to start at the very beginning: ‘What problem is it that you’re solving? What is your business? Then we get some blank looks and they say, ‘We just want the money at the end. Can’t you just give me that?’ And I say, ‘Well, no actually – there’s a process to it.’ I think with my mum and me and the people we try and support, we try and encourage them not to focus on what the title is because titles are for corporate environments, whereas when you’re a business owner it doesn’t matter, particularly when you run a micro or small business, you do everything. But essentially, you’re focused on the output and delighting the customer. As long as you keep that at the forefront of your mind, then you can enjoy the pats on the back and the celebrations of what you’ve done. But never lose sight of why you’re in this and that’s to delight a customer and make them happy, and then get them to give you money as a result.       The thing I’d like to talk about is your time on The Apprentice. You were on the very first series before anyone even knew what it was. Tim: A long time ago, neither did we! We didn’t know what it was. For the 14 contestants on the first show, there were probably only two people who did the investigation to find out exactly what The Apprentice was, which is a bit stupid to admit, but I’m going to be very honest. Anna: Was one of them you? Tim: Yeah. Anna: Oh really?! Tim: No, I didn’t. I was very naïve, I actually applied for a job with the main focus being to get the six-figure salary. That’s what I wanted. Because [the programme] wasn’t as popular as it is now and didn’t attract the millions of people watching every single episode, so it was a different beast. But when I applied, it was about securing a salary that would look after my family. And naïvely, I just applied thinking that 1) I was going to work with a great British entrepreneur in the then Sir Alan (as he is now Lord Sugar) and 2) it was a sizeable multiple on the money I was earning at the moment. I thought, ‘What could I lose?’ Little did I realise what you could actually lose, but that’s why I carried on with the application and thankfully it was a positive outcome. Yeah, that’s it – because people who apply now see it as a platform for a business idea that they might have and obviously you get the investment at the end. Tim: Correct. I suppose the thing for me is that the bigger opportunity for a show like that, apart from shouting and screaming at the contestants who don’t want to do the dreadful things they sometimes have to – or coming out with the ridiculous one-liners they seem to continually do every year without fail – is learning from Lord Sugar himself. He’s a brilliant entrepreneur in the truest sense of the word, in that he can spot problems, come up with solutions and deliver true value, not just to investors, but stakeholders, customers, in what he would be able to deliver. From what I’ve seen, there weren’t as many zingers in the first series as there were later on. What else is different between then and now? Tim: Probably because I was just boring. On the first series, I remember all of the contestants. All of us were really competitive – we just wanted to win. What we agreed on very early, was that the way we could secure victory was by not losing task and not falling out with each other. If we worked as a team, we’d actually do more. That must have been so annoying for the television producers because that’s not what they want to hear, but that’s what we had. When we went on task, we were going to be polite and civil. And when we were on task, we were going to be competitive, but not devious to the point where we would hurt other individuals. That wasn’t on our agenda. And that sung to our values – particularly me and Saira – who were project managers a number of times. Our values were that you could win without being negative to people. And I think that’s sometimes lost, particularly when people talk about business in general, where the image that people get is ruthless, belligerent character that kills everybody and steps on the heads of minor people to get to where they are. And there are some people who are like that in business, but the vast majority of people I’ve worked with – either on the show or in business in the real world – just want to survive. Anna: Those relationships are so important. Tim: It’s critical. What we took from our series was that the power of strong relationships helped you go further. As you said, the prize in the first series was a job with Sir Alan, back then. You set up his health and beauty division at Amstrad. Tim: It was a very interesting journey. You were asked on day one to come up with a health and beauty product. And I thought, ‘What is this?’ And what I saw it as was a test. What we were trying to do – and we did successfully, was replicate other multi-level marketing processes. We got other women to sell the products to other women. It was a very interesting two years I spent. The whole gambit of business was involved in that particular project. I look at it like it was a real-life MBA. It was phenomenal in terms of learning and experience. I still rub cream on the back of my hand now and say, ‘Ooo, isn’t that lovely?’ because I understand how it was all made. How was the reception of MLMs back then? Now we’re seeing a backlash, particularly with companies that don’t have a great reputation, make false promises, are quite exploitative. Tim: Yup, and I think people are right to see a backlash against those ones who don’t deliver against what they say they’re going to. The key thing that I learned from Lord Sugar was to deliver on your promises. The products that we put on were about empowering people to make a revenue from the products that we had already generated. But we had very clear outputs, a very clear rewards structure and had very clear marketing, which had no false pretence behind it. And the good thing about going on a television programme which had multi-million people viewing it is that you get held to account very quickly if you don’t do what you say you’re going to do. So thankfully, all of the work that we did was regulated, it was checked and verified by independent people and delivered against the promises. What we were really focused on was them learning about business while possibly generating some income for themselves as well as using a good, highly potent and effective product. If you were to go back on The Apprentice now and win the investment (£250,000) rather than the job, what would you do with it? Tim: Very interesting. I think if I were to do something today it’d be around artificial intelligence and some form of tech. You look at some of the industry sectors on a medium scale which are accelerating in excess of 20pc every single year and you’re immediately gravitating towards use of tech, particularly in the financial sectors. The fintech market has been amazing. I think there are some really interesting plays in the insuretech space and the edutech space. Education and people insuring against risk are never going to go away. If you look at some of the fast-growing businesses at the moment, they’re providing ancillary services behind businesses, so courier servicing, making sure that you can deliver consultancy advice and guidance into business. Or anywhere around tech in terms of promoting business propositions. Those are the areas I would’ve come up with a proposition for him to give me some money for.      I know you’re supportive of apprentices. From a small business owner’s perspective, we’ve seen that some are put off hiring apprentices because they don’t have time to train them or they can’t afford them. What would you like to see that would make things easier? Tim: I think for small businesses you’ve got to make the decisions which are really important to your company. You can’t just follow on. It’s got to be right for you as a business. The difficulty with a small company is if you make a mistake the impact is much bigger than in a bigger company where you make a mistake, it might not be right, but you can move around and you’ve got the resources to absorb that. Small businesses have to make really critical decisions around can they take on an additional wage because when you take on an apprentice, it’s not a free resource. In my opinion, you have to pay them the living wage – and the London wage if you’re in the capital. Then you’ve got to work into the equation how long the value add is to you as a business owner. They’re going to have to learn the ropes and get off the ground before they become of value to you as a small business. And the training that comes with an apprenticeship – how valuable could that be to an organisation in making an assessment? It’s not for every small company, with the amount of supervisory element to an apprenticeship programme, the resources may not be there for a small business to be able to go along that journey yet. But it’s something that should definitely be on the agenda and maybe for the smaller to medium-sized businesses that are growing, as opposed to the micro businesses who are at the beginning. I’m going to take what is typically seen as a more morbid turn here. I understand that you are the director of a company called death.io. Tim: Yes, I am indeed. And rather than scaring lots of people, it should fill them with joy. What we have done, and when I say we it’s me, my co-founder Paul Wiseall and our chairman, Tom Ilube, have come together to start a company which is using artificial intelligence to help people better prepare for the inevitable. And the rather shocking title of ‘Death’, similar to the likes of Virgin or Google, makes you wonder what this is about, where is it coming from and it’s a bit of a shock factor. We want it to stick in people’s minds that this is one of the last taboo areas that you should be talking about. Because the whole industry is a conversation which happens behind closed doors, in hushed tones, and no one really wants to speak about it. There are so many different ways to talk about death. What we at death.io have done is utilise technology to help you live forever. We are able to take the essential elements of you as an individual and tell your story, tell us the significant moments of your lives and utilise technology to create a virtual person out of those recollections, which others can interact with. Is that verbally or in writing? Tim: Both! At the moment, we have a platform which allows you to talk using typed words back and forward to your avatar. But the developments are quickly incorporating voice into that. So very much like you might like you might tell a speaker to turn the lights or the music on in your house, you will have the ability to talk to yourself via one of those devices as well. Anna: Oh, that’s kind of eerie. Tim: In one way, I can understand why people think, ‘Oh my gosh, I don’t want that, where would that come from?’ But at the same time, bringing it to back business, I had the privilege of speaking to the head of the Chinese Takeaway Association. It was very interesting – I didn’t know one existed – but one does! What he said is that you’ve got a lot of people who have come over as immigrants to this country and worked really hard to build up fantastic businesses within every single major city in the world. They’ve done that to facilitate a better life for them and their children. What happens though is that these children go to fantastic schools, go off to university, and may decide that they don’t want to run Mum and Dad’s Chinese takeaway. What happens to all of that information? What happens to all of that insight around how you pick stock, how you purchase stuff, how you set up a marketing campaign to get people to do stuff? That information has to go somewhere otherwise it just passes with the individual. It’s also an opportunity for us to make sure people have their lives in order: have you got the right insurance in place? Have you got the right protection for your family going forward? We have the facility to let people do that in a nice, friendly, social way. Yeah, from what I saw I like the holistic approach of it, especially with the blog. It’s touched by so many of today’s topics like rapidly advancing technology, sustainability, gender identity. It’s fascinating. I like the tone as well – normally with traditional funeral care providers and planners there’s a formal and sombre tone where again, on the blog, it helps breaks the tension around, as you say, a taboo subject. Tim: We had a great conversation with a phenomenal agency called Ready Ten, started up by a very good friend of mine, David Fraser. He was the only agency that picked up the potential of this in terms of how you could turn this into a positive conversation. Their ideas around how you could really grasp a difficult subject like death – you have to talk about these things because they’re not going to go away. We want to take the stance of not making light of the conversation, but in lightening the conversation around subject matters that have to happen. Like, if you got sick, what would happen? What’s your blood type? I don’t know – most people don’t know! If you don’t know what your blood type is or you don’t know if you’ve got any hereditary diseases, we have a way to capture that and share the true essence of who you are rather than the curated bit that you might do through other social platforms.       I think there are some interesting ethical questions around grieving, the way that people’s memories are held. Because we touch so many people, you might want me to come back alive, but I might’ve been really horrible to someone else who doesn’t want me to continue on living. What are the ethical implications of all of those? But for us as a platform, we want to give that ownership and option over to the individual. Where you can sign up to have this delivered in any way, shape or form based on what you feel those around you need. It’s not for us to act as judge and jury around that, but it’s going to be a very interesting development to see how far people want to take it.      Well, I’d love to talk about this a bit more, but I must move onto our last topic. You’re an advocate of the Fight for Feedback campaign, encouraging employers to give interviewees good quality feedback. In your opinion, what makes quality, decent feedback from an employer? Tim: I think it’s incredibly important that employers to understand that they have a responsibility to leave candidates with a good candidate experience from their resource process. Why is that important? I was always told that it’s important to say goodbye in a nice way rather than just say hello in a positive way. Those people will tell another ten people exactly how you treated them. It’s very important from an employer brand perspective to make sure that employees – whether they’re successful or not in going through a process – leave with a good feeling. And the best way to leave with a good feeling is to be told ‘No, but this is how you could improve’. As employers, I think we all have a responsibility to raise the level of our candidates, and I think the only way you can do is alert them to what they can do better in the future. Let me make it clear, because there are lots of very big employers who are saying, ‘Hang on a second, Tim – we see hundreds of thousands of people every year for our placements.’ Yes, that’s true, there are a lot of people coming through. It would not be impossible to put a structure in place which says to individuals, ‘You might not get direct verbal feedback from every person you spoke to but we can at least highlight the areas that we didn’t select you on.’ There are so many candidates who talk about filling out an application, taking the time to nurture a CV and make it bespoke to that employer, write the covering letter, do everything necessary, and don’t hear anything – not even a ‘no’. That’s a very negative seed that’s been planted around that brand and the value that they place around the people who interact with them. And for me, just to be able to say, ‘No, but these are the areas you fell down’ is as powerful as a half-hour phone call with an individual to walk them through exactly what they could do to improve. Now, the scale of when you can do that may alter depending on how far they’ve gone through a process and how senior the actual role is. I don’t mind that. And the other thing to think about from an employer’s perspective is that it’s a two-way process. You could get some free marketing research from individuals who have interacted with you and they can tell you what they found and that can help you develop and get better as well. You can create a brilliant campaign, attract a fantastic funnel of talent, but you don’t know unless you’re asking them how they are receiving it. I think feedback is such a small thing to do which can have such a big impact on how people perceive that brand and how they will go and work in the future. So, if somebody has a big problem presenting information in a way, tell them, help them to be better and you never know, they might come and work for you in the future because of that feedback. Plant good seeds; give good feedback.            Anna: Well, that seems like the perfect place to end it on, so I’ll wrap up there. Thanks ever so much for coming on the show, Tim. Tim:  Thanks so much for having me, Anna. Let’s hope that the sun is shining now in London and elsewhere and that all of our businesses improve. Thank you very much for having me. Anna: It’s been a pleasure. You can find out more about Tim at timcampbellhq.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on apprenticeships and grants. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.     

Big data sounds great, but how can marketers extract insights and put together reports without spending all of their time crunching numbers? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Anna Shutko of Supermetrics talks about how marketers today are dealing with data. From juggling data from 5+ sources, to wrangling spreadsheets and figuring out how to continuously monitor your data pipeline, Anna shares how Supermetrics clients are taking on these challenges while saving themselves considerable time - and how you can, too. Highlights from my conversation with Anna include: Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool that transfers data from a variety of sources to the marketer's destination of choice. In addition, Supermetrics offers data warehousing through Supermetrics for BigQuery. Supermetrics' goal is to make marketers' lives better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters. Anna says that marketers today need to be technologists who know their business, know their platforms, know at which stage of the funnel they want to use the platforms, and know how to use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from their data. According to Anna, the best KPI for any marketer is revenue. If revenue is growing, then marketing is doing its job. One of Supermetrics' customers was able to cut the time they spend on reporting down from three to four days a week to a few hours. With a platform like Supermetrics, which allows you to continuously keep your data updated in real time, you can simply check the data once a day, knowing that its up to date, and then go about your business. You can also simply provide your stakeholders (ex. board) with a link to view your data at their convenience. Anna says that the biggest mistake marketers make is to focus on vanity metrics like impressions. Resources from this episode: Marketing Technology Landscape Supergraphic  Supermetrics Reporting Template Gallery  Supermetrics Customer Success Stories Sleeping Giant Media Success Story Supermetrics HubSpot connector Supermetrics for BigQuery  Inbound Success Podcast episode 111 with Jake Neill  This Won't Scale playbook by Drift SaaStr Podcast for all things SaaS The Growth Hub Podcast for marketing topics Julian Shapiro's guides Listen to the podcast to learn more about how marketers are cutting their time spent on reporting using Supermetrics. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And Today my guest is Anna Shutko, who is a product marketing manager with Supermetrics. Welcome, Anna. Anna: Hey, Kathleen, and thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure to be here. Kathleen: Yeah. And I think you might actually qualify as my guest, one of the guests who is coming from the furthest away because you are in Finland right now. Correct? Anna: Correct. Yes, we are based in Helsinki, Finland. And yeah, so originally from Russia, and I moved to Finland and I've been living here for about seven years now. Kathleen: All right, and how -- just because the weather is changing here, so I'm currently kind of obsessed with weather -- how cold is it where you are? Anna: Basically, it's plus seven degrees Celsius. I'm sorry, I don't know what it's like in Fahrenheit. Kathleen: Cold, cold. I know that's cold. Anna: Kind of cold yeah. It usually drops to minus 20. So it's- Kathleen: Oh my gosh. I don't know how you do it, I would not survive in that climate. Well, it is getting colder here and the seasons are changing. But I'm so excited to have you on and to pick your brain because we're going to talk a little bit about analytics, which is something that's very near and dear to my heart. But it's one of those topics I think people talk a lot about, but they don't get very specific on and so I am actually really excited to get specific with you. Anna: Yes please. About Anna and Supermetrics Kathleen: So before we dive into this, though, can you just talk a little bit about, first of all, yourself and what you do and also what Supermetrics does? Anna: Yeah, sure. So I'm Anna Shutko and I've been working in Supermetrics for three years now. So I am one of the first employees of the company, I joined as employee number seven in 2016. And since then we've had a really, really rapid growth. So it's indeed an exciting journey. And I'm still continuing as you can imagine, the company is not the same as it was, not the same at all. Now we're hitting 70 like headcount. So it's been quite a wild ride. And I started as a marketing generalist, because as you can imagine, we're a team of seven, and everybody was doing everything, I was the second employee on the marketing team. And as the company grew I realized that product that's Supermetrics does is my passion and I want to devote more and more time to it. Now as we are hiring more people, I'm actually able to concentrate in product more and more as we go so I'm very excited about it. And in the future, I will be leading integrations marketing, which means, and I will explain everything how Supermetrics works and what integrations are in a minute, like integrations as their own stream as their own branch of marketing, so to say, so yeah, pretty excited about it. And like I mentioned, I fell in love with the product from day one. I remember how I was applying to Supermetrics, and I opened the website, and I saw this amazing product in the website was look really, really bad, but the idea was there. And yeah, since then, we changed the website and we added many more new and far more amazing products but I'm continuously in love with the company and products that we do so this is where my passion as a product marketing comes from. Kathleen: I have to just say, as a marketer, I have to laugh when I hear you say that you came in and you had a bad website because this -- I have experienced that in my career. And I never know whether to be excited or sad, because sad that you're coming in and the website stinks but excited that you get to come in and like change it and immediately show such big results of your marketing efforts. Like a website redesign is an awesome opportunity to just make a huge impact on a company's marketing so there's great opportunity there as a marketer, but it's also like "aargh." Anna: Yeah, I totally feel you on that we had a huge redesign project, but actually now the website really matches the company's identity of the company's products and shows how amazing they are. So I would prefer to see it as an opportunity. Kathleen: Yeah, you guys have a great website. So if you're listening and you have not checked out the Supermetrics site, definitely take a look at it. It's really well done and very cohesive from a visual branding standpoint. I've always liked your site. Anna: Thank you so much. Yeah, so a couple of words on what is Supermetrics and what do we actually do in this little red box. So, Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool and we started by developing a tool, which transfers data from different data sources, or as we call them "Integrations", those things, which transfer data from different APIs to different data destinations. So we transfer data from platforms like Google Ads, Google Analytics, Facebook ads, Twitter Ads, and now new ones for example Quora Ads, name it to spreadsheet tools and we started from transferring all this data to Excel then we move into G Suite. So next product was Supermetrics for Google Sheets aka transferring data from now it's 50 plus sources to Google Sheets. Then as Data Studio got rolled out, we partnered up with Google and we're actually the first ones to develop Connectors, which work entirely in Google Data Studios UI. So transferring all these different data to Google Data Studio. And now we enter the data warehousing space with our newest product Supermetrics for BigQuery and this is a completely new product game changer. So marketers can take advantage of BigQuery and store a lot of historical data there without necessarily learning how to code, really like hardcore, so everything is pretty intuitive. You can set transfers, and then visualize the data in big powerhouses that we're calling Tableau, Power BI for example. So that's the evolution of Supermetrics. In short, I love to describe it as a data pipeline, just easy to imagine, right, pipeline, we transfer data as if it's like water, for example, to all those different data destinations, and keep the work flowing. So previously, without Supermetrics marketers had to copy, paste, or download CSVs. So imagine, if you need a report for your client tomorrow, you have to go to every single platform like Facebook ads, Google Ads like I mentioned, ecetera, copy, paste, or then download all those different CSVs and compile them into one file. Edit every single data type and make sense out of the data and it was nightmare. I cannot even imagine how people did it without Supermetrics before. So we basically automate the whole thing so there is a really smooth sidebar or engage Google Data Studio there is this selection tool where you can very easily connect to all the sources you need. And you can select, which data do I want. For example, I want clicks from yesterday's clicked by campaigning for example, I want Facebook ads campaigns. And boom, this data just appears in your spreadsheet. It's really easy. I think it's the easiest if you watch the video, and I will add all the links to the video. So then people can pause the podcast, follow along or check our site out if they want to. So yeah, you will just really see how easy it is to create a marketing report and our motto, so our idea is to make marketers' life better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters like talking to the client, analyzing this data, spotting trends, sharing this report with their colleagues. If it's a collaborative tool, like Data Studio, it's super easy to do. And because we're a data pipeline, it gives us this flexibility. So we don't really have a fixed data destination where we transfer everything. People already know how to use Excel, so they can just transfer their data there and just go ahead and continue their work. So that's who we are. How marketers are taking on big data Kathleen: I love that. This whole topic is so interesting to me, and I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, because my company is also in the data space, but we just happened to be in cyber security but there's a similar problem with marketing and with cyber security, namely that, there's all this sort of excitement around the availability of big data. And data is wonderful but what winds up happening I think, a lot of the time is there's a lot of noise and not a lot of signal. And meaning there's a ton of data, but you don't necessarily need to look at all data, right? You need to get to the data that matters the most. And the most important thing isn't the data itself it's the insights you source from it. And so, I would love to just kind of get your thoughts on especially for marketers. Do you see marketers successfully dealing with that challenge right now and how do they do that? It is such a big, hairy kind of area of I could be measuring all the things and tracking all the things. I guess this is like 10 questions in one I want to ask you so many things, like what are the most important metrics? How are marketers winnowing it down to what matters the most? Like, you guys work with a lot of companies, how many exactly is it? Anna: So yeah, indeed we do and I think I already previously mentioned to you, so it's 400k, 400,000 people who've tried or are using Supermetrics across all the different products, so huge numbers. Kathleen: That's interesting, it must give you some pretty fascinating insight into what information marketers are tracking and what they're looking at and what sources they're drawing data from. So let's start out actually by a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of them tend to be practicing marketers and they're senior enough that they deal with strategy, but they're also kind of deep in the weeds with some tactical execution. And if somebody is listening and thinking I need to set up a reporting framework and I need to decide what are the most important KPIs to track? Can you share a little bit of, through what you see in the platform, like, what are those top KPIs that you tend to see marketers looking at? Anna: Yeah, so of course every single marketing reporting framework is unique and it depends on the company, there is no right or wrong, there is no one framework or one approach I could share and then everybody would apply it and then I would be in a very happy place. I wish that would be possible. But it's an art, it's science and everybody has to use their own judgment. Of course, I can pinpoint some things for example, nowadays you're completely right -- marketing is becoming more and more and more data driven. And marketing is actually becoming more and more technical. So there was this one chart I love referring to which is called the MarTech 5000. Not sure if you've heard of it. And it just shows on a larger scale, how the MarTech space has transformed over the years. So in 2011, there were something about, if I remember correctly, 150 solutions. And right now there are over 7,000 solutions. So imagine all those platforms and every single marketer is using maybe in their own platform, or some unique custom setups in the same HubSpot or Salesforce in the same platform everybody's using. So like I mentioned, is becoming more data driven, it's becoming more unique and is becoming increasingly complex. And what I see is that the profession is changing so we're not just more curious anymore, we have to be marketing technologists to successfully implement all those strategies. So knowing the platform and knowing at which stages of your funnel, you should use a particular platform, maybe it's a new platform, like Quora Ads for example. And it's an entirely new set of metrics because the nature of platform is different. You also have to take that into consideration. So basically to sum it up, knowing your business, knowing the platform, knowing at which stage of the funnel you want to use this platform, and knowing -- and this is where Supermetrics comes into play very nicely -- how we can use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from your data. Say you want to use, for example, Search Ads as top of the funnel, this is what we see commonly happening, people using Search Ads, maybe display ads to attract attention so they will be metrics like impressions, to impact your further questions like impressions clicks, in a way micro conversions or conversions as in their positioning to the website or going into down the funnel. Then in the bottom of the funnel, people are already more familiar with the company. So there can be many different other platforms coming into play that continue handling data so they can go on the website track. So then there is Google Analytics. They continue with another platform. Quora Ads again is a very good example because there you can have different targeting levels and you can target different questions now that people have already got their food for thought about your company. And in the end, you can, again, hammer them with more maybe brand-related content now that they're already familiar with your brand and then lead them gradually to closure. And again, this is where understanding of the product comes in handy. I will give our own Supermetrics example. So we have Supermetrics templates, basically, those are free to use files, which people can use and they work with our Connectors. So it works like this, you get this file, you click three buttons, and it all happens in Data Studio UI or, for example, Google Sheets UI and this is gets populated with your data as you use Supermetrics Connectors. But the trick is that you have to use Supermetrics Connectors to automate this dashboard. Of course, you can put your own numbers and the formulas would work, there is no problem with that you can also use it manually. But the beauty of those templates is to use them in an automated manner. So by knowing that those templates, activate trials, again, if we talking about SaaS, you know that in the bottom of your funnel, you can put this specific lead magnet, like in our case, this is the Landscape, there can be some our tool and then usually tracking through Custom Code or through Google Analytics, how those things convert and then afterwards I think that at this point, people start using more and more complicated platforms to track this post-purchase journey to accurately predict what kind of people convert? How do those people behave? And are there any like rookie purchases? So this is, again, where HubSpot comes in very handy. The platform has expanded a lot. Or Salesforce, then you can connect this data from Salesforce to top of the funnel, or middle of the funnel content data and then see how people who click on your ads and search literally through the whole journey have converted and what kind of people are there and based on that data, then you craft an improved marketing journey. Now that was a really long explanation but yeah, just hope to get the general idea out there so that you should know the business you're in. You should know the tool, you should know how to use those tools together, how to use this data together. And yeah, just focus on metrics like ROI that's my personal belief because marketing cannot function separately or completely separately from overall business, it has to bring results, it has to bring insights. So I think revenue is a very solid indicator of whether something working or not working, and in our case, this will be ROIs. Marketing tool sprawl Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense and you touched upon something I wanted to ask further about, which is you have to know your platforms and I think you said you need to be a technologist these days, which I think is really so accurate. There are so many different platforms and you can't just be a strategist anymore you have to know how to get in and make these software tools sing for you, because that's where a lot of the value gets unlocked. Do you have a sense? Well, let me back up how many different data sources or platforms does Supermetrics integrate with right now? Anna: It depends on the data destination. So for example, for BigQuery, it's far more complex to add a data source, so we have less of them there. But I would say that more than 50 if we don't count those in detail, or like early access, fully integrated, fully developed platforms, there are around 50 and I have to say that our engineers did a great job because not only do we provide the basic of I call them the basic metrics for some platforms like HubSpot, for example, or Adobe analytics, we also provide the Custom metrics. So if people have created their own metrics, they are also able to fish them out with our tool and like visualize them. Kathleen: So there's about 50 different fully integrated platforms and plenty more kind of in development. Do you have any sense from the way that you all have seen customers using Supermetrics of, on average, how many different sources the typical marketer is pulling in? I'm just curious. Anna: Yeah, of course, I will give you a very, very rough number because there is no generalization to be made. Some people prefer to use one platform very heavily others prefer to use a bundle. But I would say that around maybe like five would be something like an accurate number. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so interesting, because just from my own experience even in small organizations, like, my company is small and in early stage, hopefully will be very big in a year. But, we still, I feel like we have a lot of different platforms. We have marketing automation, we have our website, we have Google Analytics, we have our CRM, like our video marketing platform, our SEO add-ons, there's just so much and pulling it all together is a little bit of a nightmare. And I imagine without a tool like this is super time consuming, and I think that that's probably one of the biggest pain points marketers have, is the amount of time they spend on reporting. Like you said, you work with a lot of different companies I know you and I talked and you have some examples of companies that have used the platform and some stories about how it's helped them save time. Can you maybe share some of that with us? Supermetrics customer stories Anna: Yeah, definitely, and I love sharing those stories because the clients are amazing and some of them have been with us through like absolutely everything. So they started using Grabber, which is now our legacy product so the tool pulls data into Excel. And now they want to try or are already trying Supermetrics for BigQuery you can imagine some of them have used all five of our products, so definitely an evolution there. But coming back to your question one of my favorite client success stories is Sleeping Giant Media. These guys- Kathleen: It's a great name, side note, I just like the company name. Anna: Yeah, they're great and the people they're amazing. So the team is based in Britain, and they've been using Supermetrics like I mentioned for a while. They started with Supermetrics for Google Sheets and now they're looking into Supermetrics for BigQuery. So Sam, big shout out to Sam is our one big Supermetrics fan and he even talked about us at Brighton SEO, which was just amazing we never asked him to but he just went out there and spoke about us. It was really heartwarming. So he told a story that they used to spend around three to four days just on marketing reporting, aka copy, pasting numbers, collecting- Kathleen: Three to four days a month, right? Anna: Three to four days a week. Kathleen: Ah, oh my goodness. Anna: Imagine well, I guess they were not doing it exactly like every week, but maybe like every other week let's say. They are a fully functioning marketing agency providing a wide range of services. So he would get in Monday morning and start collecting data and then they're emailing all the cc's. By Wednesday evening, he would finish all reporting for one maybe two clients, depending on the scope of the project, of course. And then he had Thursday and Friday. So Thursday the client meeting to discuss how campaigns are going, whether there is some adjustments have to be made, et cetera, et cetera. And then it would just leave basically Friday and well, if he's not doing reporting next week, then the next week to implement all the changes. Which to me sounds crazy, because this is something you should not be spending that much time on. This is not a very highly intellectual job like copy, pasting numbers feels so basic -  people doing this and he's started using Supermetrics so he's time basically time he spent on reporting cut down to something like an hour or maybe like an hour and a half and if he needed to do a reporting for absolutely all the clients in the agency that would be in one day. Kathleen: So what does he do with all his newfound free time? Anna: Great question. So he's already talking, well, obviously you started sharing those results with the clients. So he started talking to the clients more and this I think even further reinforces the idea that we help inbound marketers because then we encourage with this free time you can have more human connection. You can ask more relevant questions, you have more time to even think or like process the client's needs. And, in addition to this, he was able to make more relevant analysis now that he had more time. So he could actually process the numbers in his head and think, "Aha, what would our next steps be?" And then react accordingly? So we usually have two types of reports people are doing with Supermetrics. So one type of reporting is this for example, monthly reports where people pull together numbers from all those different sources to assess their monthly progress to see what kind of plans do they have to make for the next month, and then so on and so forth. And the second type of reporting that we commonly see is the ad hoc reporting. So say, okay, this campaign, this bid is acting wild I did not know what happened. Some numbers are going down they're not normal compared to the benchmark or this is someone unusual behavior. Let me just quickly pull out a few numbers and compare them and figure out what's the root cause? Is it something seasonal or is some competitor in the picture, like to understand what's happening. And I really loved one comment, this is from a different client the agency is also based in the UK, they said that it's much, much faster and much easier to pull those numbers with Supermetrics rather than going through the whole Facebook ads UI trying to dig into campaigns and figure out what exactly went wrong. So there you go. So you can also do this ad hoc kind of very quick analysis to see whether some immediate action has to take it and I think this makes you very, very proactive versus being a reactive reporter. You look at the numbers, it's like, "Oh, my God." The moment is gone, things have already happened. But this way, you can very quickly act upon those changes and as a result make your clients happy and avoid some potential setbacks. If you for example, have Black Friday and say something's going wrong then you don't have much time to react. You're losing money basically. So yeah, it really is- Kathleen: Do you have any sense for how often, because Supermetrics really gives a continuous flow of data, correct? Anna: Yeah. How often are marketers reviewing data? Kathleen: And so you could theoretically be checking it all the time. But do you have a sense for how often at least in best practice cases, marketers are looking at that data? Anna: Yeah, so they can set triggers that would refresh data automatically. So I would say that people do so that they set up a reporting dashboard, then they set it up to refresh, so that the data is there for the next day, usually. Of course, they can do like hourly refresh again, if it's a fast pacing, budget campaign, but usually they you do this, I come in to the office, I see fresh data in my dashboard. So every morning, we can do a quick catch up with my colleagues, look at this internal report and see how all of our different clients are doing. If it's an agency, if it's an internal team, then just see how campaigns are performing and then see what we're doing during the day. So that's the usual, I would say, very typical scenario, or according to my experience. Kathleen: And then it seems like, for reporting, like if you're somebody like me, who has to put together a report once a month for your board of directors, you could just really kind of screenshot and paste the graphs into a PowerPoint or something along those lines if you wanted to, or you could distill the data in some other way for like a monthly report. Anna: Yeah, definitely, you can do this. What I would do personally, if I was the one doing this, I would use Google Data Studio because this way you don't have to copy paste anything and you can share this file with really nice dashboards they've updated their design and they're rolling out as far as I know, more comprehensive and even better looking design soon. So you can just connect all the sources put all the numbers and like I mentioned also provide those templates so you can get some inspiration from there. Our designers also do a very nice job creating those lovely designs. For example, we have some Supermetrics for HubSpot templates there in our gallery and I will also give the link to all the materials and the gallery so people can check them out or if they listen to the episodes and try everything themselves. Check out the Supermetrics reporting template gallery But yeah, I would do something like this. And then at the same time, you would not need to refresh the data because the data will be refreshed automatically there. And the board of directors can see new numbers and in addition, you can also connect your custom data source, aka if you have revenue numbers in a database, many companies do have those. So especially if it's a board of directors, they would be very interested in the impact marketing has made on their revenue and other business metrics. So you can pull this data from the database and you can show it side by side with the marketing spend, for example, to give them an even bigger picture. The biggest mistakes marketers are making with data Kathleen: That's great. So any thoughts on, you know, what you see the marketers doing as far as the biggest mistakes they're making with tracking data reporting on it, et cetera? Anna: That's an interesting one. I actually have never thought about this. Mistakes. Well, maybe one thing that comes to my mind is maybe like focusing too much on the vanity metrics as I call them, aka like a lot of clicks or like impressions or worse like it's a impressions. Metrics that give you ... I would say these are maybe like unrelated metrics in a way that they're not very directly related to the business metrics, because for example, in some cases, sales cycle can be quite long. So you cannot accurately assess how much the campaign will generate in the future just simply because people have to go through multiple steps and multiple touch points to even get to the discussion about purchasing your product or tool or license. And so yeah, focusing too much on impressions, focusing too much on metrics then, like I said, not maybe necessarily related. This comes back to the product. You should know your sales cycle and I would suggest breaking it down into different steps and basically monitoring and benchmarking each step and see the conversion rates. I don't exactly remember, a gentleman did an episode with you and he suggested a very good framework for this. There was even Excel spreadsheet. So this is maybe something we could also pulling back to this episode in the comments. Kathleen: I'll have to figure out which one that was. Anna: Yeah, unfortunately, I don't remember. Kathleen: We'll figure it out. Anna: We'll figure it out. Check out the episode Anna references here Kathleen: I know we can do it and we'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah, I know that I've had so many great guests it's interesting who've contributed so many great ideas that oftentimes I was thinking and in fact as I listened to you talk, that I need to go back and listen to some of my earlier episodes, because now I'm on I think I just published Episode Number 117 when we're talking about this, and there's so many earlier ones that are still great in terms of the information they deliver. Who is Supermetrics right for? Kathleen: I imagine that this type of reporting isn't right for everybody because some marketers might have much simpler platforms or maybe not. Maybe it is for everyone can you talk through who do you generally see using a solution like this? Anna: So our most common user personas, so to say, are marketing agencies, so somebody who is doing marketing reporting consecutively and then they have to do it almost every day or at least monthly to put together those good looking reports for their clients. But of course, those marketing agencies can be of different size. There can be a five person as we are now seeing with required there can be a five person very tech savvy small team, which focus on marketing technology and purely some maybe hardcore analytics with the elements of normal distribution and some predictive analytics even or they can be a very big marketing agency like TBWA who want to work client success stories. So yeah, agencies are very typical for us. Then we have internal teams so basically marketing departments, which want to monitor their own campaign, how they're progressing. Then even if they don't have a client, like you just mentioned, reporting to their board of directors and showing what impact marketing has made on their sales et cetera. And also, we've added HubSpot Connector, which is not only marketing, but it's also CRM. So then they connect their marketing data together with the CRM data to give more background information and make a 360 degree analysis. So these are very, very diverse I have to say. Kathleen: Great. So really it sounds like anybody, regardless of size, who has a strong focus on data, tracking data, analyzing data and reporting on data? Anna: Yeah, I would say so. Well maybe there is some categorization, I would say that smaller teams tend to use Google Sheets and Excel aka Spreadsheet tools. If the team is very tech savvy, or they have a lot of historical data, then I would straightaway advise them to use Google BigQuery because they would immediately otherwise hit that cell limit and the reports will be bulky, the reports will be slow. This is just not the right data destination, if you want to store terabytes and even more like 2, 3, 4 years of historical data to see different trends. So to summarize, bigger marketing agencies who have many clients, many big clients like big brands want to own their data because imagine those big brands spend a lot of dollars collecting this data, cleaning this data up. And they want a place where they can successfully store the older data so they can store data in BigQuery as their database and then they can instantly connect data from their Facebook ads, et cetera, to BigQuery through Supermetrics, and then visualize it, for example, in Tableau or Power BI to get the full picture of their marketing reporting. And yeah, smaller teams tend to use Data Studio, Google Sheets, which are completely free tools, so they are not paying per usage for them. So for them that would be cheaper and therefore more suitable option. How to learn more about marketing analytics Kathleen: Okay. Now I'm going to spring a question on you that I didn't tell you I was going to ask you and you may not have the answer because this is totally off the cuff. But as you spoke about this, you talked about, like, when you start to do more, you should move over to BigQuery. And I imagine for some marketers that could seem kind of intimidating, especially if they don't come from a highly analytical background. So are there certain places that you know of, or can recommend if somebody's listening, and they're thinking, "Oh, my God, that sounds really complicated." I need to get up to speed and learn more about analytics and how to use something like BigQuery. Is there somewhere online they can go to learn and become better at analytics? Anna: Yes, and I actually do have to say that we're working on this. We're very well aware of this worry that people have that, oh, I've been using maybe more simple UIs for my whole life. And now there was this whole like jobs and transfers and the whole different environment, which is coming with this BigQuery. So first of all, I do have to say that we're working on creating a bunch of materials for BigQuery specifically that will show how can use Supermetrics products if you're a marketer like videos, where do you click? How do you create different kind of transfers? How to use different kind of joins? So this is something that we're really hoping to provide and also we do have natively build Data Studio Connectors so after a marketer has gathered all the data in BigQuery, they can use our connector to visualize their data in just a few clicks. And, again, as we publish a video you'll see it's very, very simple and what I really love about BigQuery, although it does sound intimidating, but Google does provide learning resources for that as well. And if you look at the UI, you will notice that it's very, very intuitive. So to say, well at first it's maybe a little bit challenging, but once you get a hang of it, it's actually pretty nice, it's quite clear. From our side, we also provide this monitoring suite where you can see how your transfers are performing. Is your data flowing all in nicely? Is there something to worry about or not? Usually all our transfers are fine. So people have mentioned and you can also see from the client success stories that data flowing in nicely and we haven't experienced that much challenges with Supermetrics for BigQuery. But yeah, more resources coming up. Google does provide their own resources and I think it's important for marketers to at least look into this if it's relevant for them, because this is the general trend. This is where the world is going and you want to be ahead. You definitely want to at least understand what kind of technologies are there. I really liked the quote one of our clients have mentioned. So they said, "It feels like Google BigQuery compared with other providers is built with agencies and with marketers in mind." So that sounds reassuring to me at least that people do say that it's actually feels like it's built for marketers. So I would say, yeah, wait for ours resources and then go and explore on your own and try not to be intimidated by this very techie sounding word. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah it can be a lot to think about. But that's great that you guys are working on creating some resources. All right, we can talk about data forever but I have two questions I always ask all of my guests at the end of my interviews, and I would love to get your answers. The first one is, we talked about how the focus on this podcast is about inbound marketing. Who can you think of that whether it's a company or an individual who's just doing inbound marketing really well right now? Anna: Yeah, I will say quite a common answer and I'm pretty sure other guests have already mentioned this company. I think Drift is doing a fantastic job when it comes to inbound marketing, so they have not only created their own category, but when they interact with the people, with their clients, it feels very, very human, which I think they got this trend. This is something many of us need as marketing is becoming more and more techie. We need this kind of catalyst, we need this human connection to feel welcomed. And like I mentioned, they're doing a fantastic job there and one very good example is this one scale playbook, those 41 or 42 plays. As you read through this playbook, you can literally see that the company's trying show their best and make people feel welcomed and warm if they're using their product. Kathleen: Now, that's great. A lot of people have mentioned them, but that's because they're doing great things. Anna: Exactly. Kathleen: Second question is where do you personally go to learn and keep up so that you are able to stay abreast of the cutting edge developments in marketing? Anna: Yeah, so I prefer not to have a one stop shop. So depending on the topic I want to learn more about I go to a variety of different resources. So if I want to learn something more general about what's going on in the world of SaaS marketing, I listen to the SaaStr Podcast. Another amazing podcast I can recommend is the Growth Hub Podcast, and my colleague Edward is a proud host of this podcast. I really love his interviewing style and the guests, which have been on this podcast are simply amazing. So go check it out the Growth Hub Podcast, by Advanced B2B. A couple of other things. So of course I go to MarTech Today and SEJ if I want to learn about news and recent updates, and for us it's especially relevant, because we need to keep up what's going on with all the data source companies. Julian Shapiro, I'm not exactly sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, has a couple of fantastic guides on how to write a great copy, how to build a really nice landing page, how to A/B test. So one really good resource there as well and yeah. How to connect with Anna Kathleen: There's a couple new ones there that I haven't heard about. So we'll definitely check those out and put the links in the show notes. If someone wants to reach out to you, if they have a question about what you've talked about, or they want to learn more about Supermetrics, what is the best way for them to connect with you? Anna: Yeah, so definitely the best way is to reach out to me directly, maybe not through the company Twitter, but I'm @superpoweranna on Twitter. Kathleen: That's such a great handle. Anna: I love it as well. It's like Supermetrics plus me. So yeah, @superpoweranna on Twitter, and yeah, just hit me up with anything. And I also am very actively checking LinkedIn messages so Anna Shutko on LinkedIn, please don't hesitate to connect and I'm very happy to have discussions, answer the questions about anything there. So yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter, I would say, are the two go places. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Great. Well, I will put links to all of your various social accounts in the show notes so people can reach out to you and thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun just to talk about analytics and to geek out for a little bit. If you are listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new as always, I would love it if you would leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. That is how people find us and hear about us. And of course if you know someone else who's doing kick ass in non-marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork and I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks, Anna. Anna: Thank you so much Kathleen. Kathleen: So fun.

James: Hey, audience. This is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Anna Kelley from Central Pennsylvania, who owns around 175 units, around $16 million in worth until now. And you know, I should have invested passively in 900 units. And she's also under contract on around 200 units right now. Hey, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna: Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you, James. James: Good to see you too. And, I mean, for those who do not know, we also have a YouTube channel that shows all our interviews. And you can catch up with us on iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube or Spotify so go and do that. I'm actually in one of my property here in San Antonio so trying to do it from my office. And Anna, are you in your office or where are you right now? Anna: I'm in my home. I'm not actually in my office. James: Yes. Good. Good, we work from home, I guess, right. Anna: Yes. James: So Anna, why don't you tell our audience about yourself? Anna: Sure. So I started out in real estate about 20 years ago, just kind of dabbling in real estate. And I started out doing some property flips and some single-family rentals. And then I slowly started moving up to small multi-unit properties, like four-unit apartment buildings, 10 unit apartment buildings. And I recently last May retired from my full-time career, I worked for AIG for 20 years. And I really built my real estate portfolio up on the side, part-time for all of those years. So busy mom, have four children. And I just went full time. And now I'm focused on and have been focusing on for a while much larger apartment building assets. James: Got it. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you work at AIG, which is a big insurance firm. And can you just quickly tell us what was your role? Anna: Sure. So at AIG, I had various different roles. I did internal management, consulting, product development, and then I moved into a role that was very compliance heavy. We worked with private placement hedge funds wrapped in an insurance product. So we worked on SEC audits and filings, reviews of PBMs and hedge funds and things of that nature. James: Got it, so it looks like you have some PPM level syndication experience, even at your workplace, I guess, is that right? Anna: Definitely, we worked with alternative investments for about 17 of the 20 years that I worked there. James: So you work there for 20 years and when did you start to real estate venture? Anna: Why I'd say, you know, I dabbled, I bought some, you know, singles and I bought a flip. And then 12 years ago, when I moved from Texas to Central Pennsylvania to start my husband's chiropractic business, we were looking for properties to lease for his office space. And we found that it was very difficult to do that. But they had a lot of buildings that came with tenants, you know. Older buildings on Main Street that had been converted to businesses on the first floor, most of them had residential rental space on the top floors. And so we bought a building and inherited tenants. We had three tenants with his commercial space. James: Okay. Anna: And then that kind of threw me into the idea of having tenants and having a little extra cash to cover the mortgage. And then at that same time, James, we sold a house in Houston that we lived in, liquidated everything, we had to come here and start a business. And so I knew it wasn't very wise for me to buy another home right away. And AIG let me work from home on a very temporary trial basis to see how it worked out. So I bought a four-unit apartment building for us to live in. So we downsize significantly and house hacked, basically, to make sure that our business expenses, you know, for the space and our housing expenses were covered if I happen to lose my job, you know, 12 years ago when we started out. So that got me into starting to think about and invest in residential real estate. James: Got it. So you basically, you did not like had an ah-ah moment, I need to go tomorrow and buy real estate. You were actually thrown into it? Anna: Well, I'll say this before I went to work for AIG. I was in private banking, I was a Financial Relationship Manager for Bank of America. And so I handled the top 10% of the wealth in our bank, both small businesses and individuals. And what I found is that many of them owned real estate and had accumulated their wealth in real estate or were already investing in real estate. So in my young 20s, I was very interested in real estate thought that it was something lucrative that one day I'd like to own, but I really didn't start thinking too much about it until I had my first child in 2003. And all the flip houses shows, you know, we're coming on and I thought, oh, I can flip a couple of houses and be home with my child. And so I dabbled in flipping before the rental real estate. But my move here is what kind of gave me the impetus to think about rentals more quickly. James: Got it. So, I mean, I never had a woman guest until now. So you are the first one. And I'm very -- Anna: Oh, thank you. James: We have a lot of listeners that are listening everywhere and I'm sure a lot of them are women. So I'm trying to get from a woman’s perspective, on how could they start like what GF started, right? I mean, your husband is working and you are working too. Like, I would say what do you think could be the secret formula, or they're just the formula on how can any woman start while they are in your own position? Anna: Sure, you know, there are different ways to starting, a lot of it James truly does depend on the personality of the person, your family dynamic. You know, how much support you have for watching your children? What other income sources you have, you know, when you're starting out? And how much basically time and money that you have available to get started? So, you know, people that have very, very limited time might have the significant cash flow or they might, their spouse might make enough money that they could really get started more passively. And that's where maybe they want to start investing in other apartments syndications or getting invested as a passive partner maybe joint venturing with someone that has experienced you know, buying and managing either a single or a small multi or a larger and then just investing with money. And learning how to review the financials and review the operations each month and each quarter. Just to kind of get yourself familiar with what it's like to own and manage an asset might be a good way to get started. For someone like me, that doesn't have any cash and really wants to get invested by investing time, you have a lot more opportunity to really educate yourself through reading books and through podcasts. And going to meetup groups to learn what it takes to ask actively, evaluate deals, find them and hire people to update them and improve the values and put a renter in or you can start learning the skills yourself. You know, my husband and I when we started out, he did a lot of the maintenance and I painted every unit. And I called flooring contractors and you know, designed kitchens and help paint cabinets. I mean, we did everything actively because we started out, we had liquidated all of our, you know assets and started out with quite a bit of debt to start a business and we're running that. So we really didn't have a lot of money. So we invest at the time. So there are many ways to get started. But I'd say definitely align yourself with other people that already know what they're doing, attend some meetup groups, listen to podcasts. And then just decide whether you want to be active or passive for your first one or two until you kind of learn what you like, what your personality works well with and kind of what works within your family dynamic. James: Got it. So who convinced who between you and your husband? Did he convince you to, hey let's go and do, spend time and rehab this real estate or did you convince him or how did you? I'm trying to understand how did the discussion happen? Because a lot of people are struggling, I mean could be struggling, right? How do I convince my spouse especially from a woman to the husband side? Usually, the husband can convince the wife, right? But you are the one who's active right now real estate, how did that work out? Anna: Yes. So it's one of those things when we talk about the personality of the individual. When you're married, there are two people involved in your decisions. And my husband and I, from the beginning, have always looked at our finances and our lives as a partnership. But we kind of has our roles in reverse. I mean, he's a doctor, he's a chiropractor, he went to school for a long time. He's very smart. But he's very hands-on and a people person, he doesn't like the finances, he's not financially minded. He's not the kind that wants to be an entrepreneur and grow a big business, like he's content, just having a small practice, and letting me handle all of the finances. So because I had a background in finance and understanding investments, I pretty much have always handled our investments. And when we decided for him to start the business, I kind of took over the operations and learned how to, you know, run a chiropractic business and set up insurance and all that kind of stuff while he was the doctor and saw the patients. And so when it came to real estate, I said, listen, we're starting out with a lot of debt after paying off all of the school that it's just not financially wise for us to do anything other than buying something so we have tenants helping to pay the rent. So it was easy initially to get Vincent to buy his practice and our building, just to be financially wise and not going into more debt. But growing that beyond that was definitely me as the driver, he was busy with this practice. He did not like to do maintenance, but he learned to do it and liked the fact that once we did rehab units, they were worth a lot more and we had a lot more cash and could keep buying them. But I've been told multiple times, slow down, pull off the brakes, we have enough units, why do you want to keep growing? And I am like because I'm passionate about it. And I'm passionate about the wealth that it can create. So I've been kind of the driver. And he's been very supportive and very hands-on for the 70 units that we self manage in our area. But definitely likes that I'm now buying much larger assets where I'm asset managing and he's not involved day to day in the management and maintenance of the properties. James: He must be very happy now. Anna: Very happy, yes. James: Yes, we started with 45 units. And my wife used to be sitting there whenever we were missing our property manager in the beginning, I mean, she was sitting there doing things and I didn't do maintenance. But, I used to be with her and trying to buy this and buy that and make sure you know the contractors are lined up. And it's a lot of work, but it involves teamwork. And yes, we are two different people, we have to learn how to work with each other. Anna: For sure. James: That's good. And so you started with 70 units, with the chiropractic real estate, right? I mean, is it like a commercial center? Anna: It is. It's a commercial mixed-use building. So there's a commercial space that his business lease's from my business. And it had three tenants, three, you know, residential renters and four garages to that property. James: Got it. So you got some kind of tax benefit, I guess because the [inaudible11:44] is leasing from the owner itself, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. James: So get some write off there, good. And how did you, I mean, so after that and then what was the next acquisition that you did? Anna: So James, as many people were affected by the 2008-2009 economic crash. Imagine working for AIG at the time and AIG, you know, coming in and having one of the largest insurance liabilities of any other provider in the country between mortgage insurance and credit default swaps. And I worked for them. So I had already, I had been working for them for a year on a work from home basis. And we thought we were going to be laid off, my stock went from 1-o-1 a share to 43 cents a share. My retirement funds were almost just destroyed. They were destroyed. I lost about two thirds within a week. And I decided, oh man, I'm going to lose my job. My husband has a brand new business with hundreds of thousands of dollars in startup debt and I'm the sole income. So what are we going to do? And the only thing I could think to do right away was to borrow from my 401k, about $50,000 that I had left that I could borrow and buy another four-unit because I thought at least if I buy another 4 unit, I'll have another, you know, $1200 to $1500 dollars a month of cash coming in. And that's in the asset, that is solid and stable that I won't lose any more in the stock market, no matter what happens. So that was my next acquisition. Again, it wasn't really thinking about oh, this isn't a phenomenal investment. It was, what can we do to survive? And I know that cash flow is a good thing. And that residential real estate will not go down in value significantly compared to the stock market. James: Got it. So after that four-unit, what did you buy the next one? Anna: Another four units. James: Okay, and when did you start with the 70 units where you self manage? Anna: Okay, so what we did, we self-managed, again, initially just out of necessity, not having a lot of extra cash, thinking our finances were not super stable because I was the sole breadwinner at that point. My husband's income was nice, you know in six figures gross, but it was covering expenses. And so we just we're continuing to find ways that we could cash flow and make the most cash and be willing to put in the time to do it ourselves and learn at the time. And so we kept buying a couple of single-family homes that we bought as foreclosures, renovated them and instead of selling them as a flip, we did a cash-out refi, we kept them as rentals, we took the proceeds to buy another and another. And then we did the same thing with small four-unit apartment buildings. So four-unit apartment buildings were kind of my niche and the sweet spot for several years chains. Because there were in a smaller area, I'd say maybe a tertiary market right outside of Hershey. And there's not a lot of apartment complex supply, no big complexes, but there's a lot of demand for housing. And so most of the rental real estate here were four-unit apartment buildings that had been built that way or converted, you know, couple decades ago. And there weren't a lot of big buyers buying those four-unit building. So they'd sit for a while. So I kind of I saw a niche where I could buy properties without having a lot of competition. And I could basically treat them like a larger commercial asset, but on a, you know, on a four-unit scale instead of a five or six-unit scale. And so I kind of honed my skill in updating those units, managing those units, raising the values, cashing out repeating. And then decided, okay, now it's time, once I built up, you know, a strong six-figure passive, you know, net rental real estate portfolio, then I decided, now I can retire and I can scale and start going after much larger assets. And so that's what I did. James: Okay, got it. So when was the first time that you acquired a much larger than four-unit property? Which year was that? Anna: Okay, so in 2018, I had basically created a five-year plan James in 2013, that by 2018, I wanted a $5 million portfolio, you know, about $150,000, at least in passive income, and then I would retire and start going for a bigger one. So I'm my goal in four years in 2017. And then just started kind of working my way into, you know, saving six months of salary and expenses for all my buildings and starting to look for larger deals. So I found the first larger deal for me, it was a 73 unit apartment building, right outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, that I found off the market and I [inaudible16:20] on that with two other owners. That was a six and a half million dollar purchase 73 unit. And we closed on that in 2018. James: Got it. So how did you manage your time? I mean, your husband is working, and you are doing this fourplex, fourplex, fourplex and your four kids. And you give some tips for people who are in a similar situation and how can they manage and be as successful as you are? Anna: You know, I think really the key to my success has just been resilience and grit and determination. I worked truly, most people say oh, rental real estates passive. But I like to say and I totally believe James, that passive income is built on the blood, sweat and tears of active income. And it takes years of active, sometimes to build up the financial wherewithal that you can truly become totally passive. So between my husband's business and my work, and my rental real estate, I truly worked 70 to 80 hours a week over the last 10 years, in order to be able to get to where I am. My four children are all involved in sports, pretty competitive sports. So we have sports every morning, we have sports after school every day. And most days, it's seven days a week, you know, multiple tournaments on a Saturday and on a Sunday. So every waking moment when the kids went to school before I started work, I did real estate. My lunch breaks, I did real estate. My vacation days, five out of six weeks a year, I did real estate, you know, evenings between when the kids got home and I worked, it was real estate. And after nine when the kids were in bed, I often stayed up till midnight to get things done. So it was very time-consuming. But I'm very, very grateful that I stuck with it and did it. And it was just a matter of utilizing every day, I didn't watch TV, we didn't have cable, I didn't go do a lot of recreational things, I really, you know, not nose to the grindstone just focused on building the portfolio so that I could retire and spend more time with my kids. James: Yes, it's really hard work, I can really appreciate what you've gone through. Because I was working and my wife was like running around in the beginning. I mean, I only stopped working after we had like, 340 units. Now we have like, 1300, it's a lot of work, right. So based on what you're saying, it can be done. It's just like not, please don't give excuses, right? Anna: Exactly. I'm here to tell you, you know, if I can do it, working full time, running my husband's business, four kids and doing it, you know, anybody can do it if you just have grit and determination. So you make the time for what's important to you. And I knew that it was important to me to be able to work myself out of my job. And especially with AIG, you know, a couple of years ago, they said, we really are going to sell our unit, and we need to all be prepared to figure something else out in terms of career. So that kind of drove me to have executed my plan in a certain period of time. And now you know, that I'm retired, I'm still very, very busy. But I have the freedom to control my time, you know, to do what I enjoy and go after larger deals where I'm not having to be quite so involved in the day to day. James: Yes Can you define what is grit and determination in your mind? Anna: Sure, so grit is the ability to stick with something, no matter what comes, no matter what obstacles without basically, you know, melting into a wallflower. And just keep ongoing. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on what makes people successful. And you know, some kids were tracked from high school, through college, through their professional lives and they were really surprised that the top students like the valedictorian, the [inaudible20:04] rarely ended up actually being the most successful people in their professional lives. It was usually the people that went through a lot of hardships, and just kept going and push through and got creative and figured a way through and around every obstacle and became stronger and more confident, and determined. And those are the people that ended up the most successful. So I just I think it's an extra drive and extra determination and a willingness to keep pushing through no matter what and to not give up on your goals. James: Yes, so look, I mean, I always tell my listeners and whoever talked to me that it's always, you know, whether you want to be successful, or whether you like to be successful, whether you required to be successful so, I mean, if you have been this successful, you must have that, I really need, I really required to be successful. I mean, is that true statement that you came to that way? Anna: I think so. I grew up with very, in very humble means. And I always knew that I wanted to create a different type of lifestyle and a different financial future for my kids and I was just determined to do it. So I've always been driven, I've always taken on challenges. You know, my first job at Bank of America, I won the number one ranked Financial Relationship Manager in Texas and Employee of the Year awards at multiple jobs, my first couple of years. Because I've always had, that I'm going to be the best, I'm going to succeed, I'm going to achieve and do whatever it takes attitude. So I think part of that was ingrained in me from a young age. James: Yes, I think it's important, I mean, just the personality itself and the drive to be successful and the requirement; I mean, because your husband and your AIG was going downhill and you must be successful otherwise, your family, it may not be in a good place, in terms of financial. So that's really good. So describe to me, what was your toughest day in a one day when you have like four kids and all going to all these classes and schools and all that? Have any time where you think that, oh, my God, this is just too much for me as a mom and as a real estate sponsor? And can you describe that feeling and experience? Anna: Yes, I just actually, you know, Facebook is kind of a mixed bag of whether you like it, or whether you don't. But I like the Facebook memories that kind of pop up and remind you of something. And I had something pop up this last week, about a three day in the life of a real estate investor that works full time and has four kids. And I looked back and thought, well, I don't know how I survived it. But back in February of 2018, I believe it was, I had a call that there was mould in the basement and that they were smelling mould. So they opened it up and there was a lot, well, you know, I'm thinking it's probably like a dripping water heater or something we walked in and there was literally like six inches of goopy mould hanging from every rafter of every space in the basement of a three-unit apartment building with the ground floor, a dirt floor. And when we opened it up, I mean, it was just really bad. And what had happened was a hot water heater, pressure relief valve had failed in the basement, nobody seemed to notice nobody called us. The person in hindsight said, you know, I thought my hot water pressure was kind of low and not as hot. And I should have called you well, within about a six week period, six to eight weeks, somewhere in there, our entire three in an apartment building was just covered in mould. And inside all the units, I had to meet the tenants, it was snowing and really bad weather. And I had to call, you know, restoration companies and re-home all my tenants and get all of this stuff out of the property. Right after that, we had another property where a roof blew off in another big storm. And we're handling the kids and multiple other small things were going wrong, we had a couple of frozen pipes because it was a winter that the ground was just frozen for so many days. So we're dealing with frozen pipes, re-homing tenants, working full time, insurance, the tenants all wanted to sue me because there was mould and their kids were sick and going to the hospital. And my kids were just young and very needy. And it was like a two or three week period where I thought I'm done, I can't do this anymore. It's not worth it. It's too hard. And I kind of had a little pity party for a few weeks and said, okay, I need to take a break. I'm not buying anything else. And I took about a three-month break where I didn't buy anything else. And I just kind of took care of those issues. And then, you know, said I need some breather time, we went to the beach. And after I got back from the beach, I'm like, okay, I'm refreshed. It's behind us now that I've handled that period can do anything and just kept going. James: It's crazy the amount of pressure and tense moment that you have during that kind of things with family and issues with the deal. So I want to ask one last question before we go into the details of some of the deals that you have done here. So why do you do what you do? I mean, you don't have to do this right now. Right? Anna: So a couple of things, James, I'm really passionate about real estate, I'm really passionate about wealth building. And there is nothing like real estate to build wealth. You know, I started out teaching clients about mutual funds and stocks and bonds and how they can make you know, eight to 10% returns on their money if you time everything right. And realize that it takes money to be invested in the stock market. It's volatile and it's risky. And really, people can go from nothing to multi-millionaire in a couple of years of investing in real estate if they do it the right way. And so I've just seen the real power in that. You know we went from literally negative $750,000 net worth when we started my husband's business to a several million dollar net worth and just a few years of really aggressively buying rental real estate. And so it changes lives. And I want people to know, especially women, that that you can change your financial family trajectory, not just for today, but for future generations. And also we're providing really good housing to people. So you know, I grew up in government housing, my mom was a single mom, she was a property manager for a government housing apartment complex. And I know what it's like to grow up in an apartment and we didn't have the best amenities. You know, all my friends were wealthy, and I lived in a little apartment complex. And I've worked with inner-city kids who live literally in shacks with dirt floors in the middle of Houston, Texas. And to be able to empower people and say, your life can be different. And I can show you the financial tools to take better steps and to know better so that you can create generational wealth for yourself. And it just empowers me, it drives me to keep doing it, not just for my own wealth accumulation, but to help other people to learn that they can do the same. James: Yes, that's very interesting. I mean, what you say this, anybody can do this, right? And I know a lot of people are listening to you, there will be some people who think, yes, I can do it too. Then there's another group of people, they're going to give reasons, oh, Anna has this, Anna has that, that's why she's successful. So if you are the one who's giving reasons, I know you want to stop that, because indefinitely, you can make money in real estate, especially millions of dollars, if you really work hard. And if you really, really want it, a lot of them just do not want to do the work. They really don't want the success, they just want to continue with their life and just go ahead and do whatever they've been doing and let the life takes wherever it takes them. Anna: Yes and I think part of that James, for so many years, you see these teams, these shows reality TV, and people convince you that it's easy money that you can do it, that you can be successful. There's coaching programs and gurus that you know, charging five, ten, twenty thousand dollars to sign up and learn how to do real estate. And they promise you that if you follow these three steps, you're going to be independently wealthy in a year or two. And I think when reality hits people, and they start investing, and they start to see how hard it actually can be on a day to day basis until you build up that experience and that wealth, they just give up and they feel like failures because they've been sold an unrealistic expectation of getting rich quick in real estate, when it's really the long game. You know, you're playing a long game, it takes sometimes longer than it should you know, some people get lucky or find the right network and connections and very quickly can build wealth. But for most people, it's slow and methodical growth. And it's just people need to realize that it's not easy, but it's not that complicated if they just stick with it. James: Yes. And they are people who did one real estate and failed badly. And they gave up on real estate. So there other people that you know, yes, one time fail doesn't mean anything we could, we would have failed many times, I guess. Right, so. Anna: Sure. I lost money on my first flip. And I was convinced I'd never do another one. And yes, I changed my mind quickly. And I've done a few but rental real estate is really where the wealth build up comes. James: Yes, yes, in my single-family days, I do like 11 rentals, but I was also doing two flips. And I regret doing flips, because I made like, 40,000 on one flip and I buy a loss and $1,000 on another flip. And that thousand dollars feel very painful. Anna: Yes James: Because you shouldn't be losing money in real estate, but it really taught me a lot of things on how I didn't do it right in terms of the flip. But just because somebody did one and they fail, doesn't mean the whole real estate is a scam. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: Definitely make millions of dollars in real estate, especially if you're living in the US. Anna: Yes, yes. James: It's a country where it allows anybody to grow, there is no limit is just you. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: So no reasons, right? So if you give reasons, that's you so that's the only thing. So let's go to some of the deals that you have been done. And you so you are buying fourplex, fourplex, fourplex. And you started [inaudible30:21] on the 70 units and you self manage and you go into the syndication, why are you going into syndication now? Anna: So, I think some of it comes back to the time and the money, that spectrum of do I have more time or do I have more money? When I got started, I didn't have money and I could have said I didn't have time, but I made time. So it was a heavy, heavy time investment. As I built wealth and as I built more cash flow, it just made more sense for me to be able to scale larger with other partners and to be able to be an asset manager, operator, rather than the property manager or the maintenance person. So I've gotten to a point in my life where even though I've retired from my job, I really want my evenings to be free with my children and just to be wife and mom in the evenings and just spend a certain number of hours a day doing real estate. And so I got to a place where I had to say, you know, how can I really scale if I'm still self-managing many, many more units, it's going to take me a lot longer of full time effort, even though I don't have a job. And I wasn't really willing to sacrifice any more years with my children working more than 40 hours a week. And so I wanted to control my time and continue to scale. So I figured I needed to start working with other people, utilizing other people's time and other people's money. And the larger multifamily allows you to do that because you can afford full-time property management, full-time maintenance staff and really become more of an asset manager and business plan executer than you are an individual who self-managing your own properties. James: Yes, business plan executer, that's the operator definition, I would say. Anna: Yes. James: How do you define operator slash active asset manager in your mind? Anna: Sure. So an operator is basically the person responsible for operating that asset soup to nuts and executing your business plan. So it's generally, you're just general partners. And there will be either all the general partners will be involved in the asset management or overseeing the business plan and making sure that your plan for that particular property is being executed the right way. So for example, if we're buying a value add property, like the 73 unit that we did and the others that I go after, it's a property that is usually poorly managed, its expenses are not being managed well, the rents are below market, and perhaps the units need to be updated in order to maximize the rents so that you can then increase the value of that property. So as an asset manager and operator, I'm working with our property management company or a property manager and with our contractors to make sure that you know, when units come available, we turn those units quickly, we update them on time and on budget, we raise the rents, we get the new tenants in there. So that we can execute our plan to raise the values before we sell or refi. And we work with the property managers to make sure that they're cutting the expenses in the way that we planned, that they're monitoring the expenses, monitoring the rents, making sure rents are being collected, and you're just basically overseeing soup to nuts, all of the things that are supposed to happen to make your asset more valuable. James: Got it, do you think there's a certain advantage of being a local asset manager? Anna: I would say yes, in that really bad, unforeseen, unexpected things happen, like mould damage, or like when blowing roofs off or a hurricane, you can be at that asset very, very quickly. And you can also stop in and visit with your property manager, your property management company on a monthly basis, bimonthly basis and just say, hey, let's walk the ground, show me what you're doing. And there's just never anything as valuable as actually being on the ground and seeing it. However, in today's world, where we have the technology, we have zoom, we have our phones, where we can take pictures, and we can walk around, it's pretty easy to do things virtually as well. So while the operator in me that's always had, you know, my boots on the ground, and always been able to see kind of likes the control of being able to be at a property within an hour. It's not necessary, if you trust your team and have a good team that's boots on the ground, and can just go to your asset maybe once or twice a year. So I haven't really done it from afar. I'm asset managing my first property that we have under contract right now, two properties in Atlanta. And so I'll be sharing asset management responsibilities there. And that'll give me a little better feel for how much easier or harder it is to do from afar. James Got it. Got it. So let's come back to value add. So all the deals that you're buying a presume are value add, right? Anna: Yes. James: I mean, you're adding some things to the operation, either the income or the expense, right? So what do you think is the most valuable value add in your mind? Anna: So I really like Class A to B areas and an older building because your area you can't change, a lot of syndicators go after class C area, workforce housing and older buildings. And so you're struggling not only to bring the asset up to today's standards but also with a tenant pool who may suffer more heavily if we head into a recession or they may be more susceptible to losing jobs and not being able to pay rent. Where when you're in a nicer area where there's really good school districts and people want to live, there's a lot of good employers and a lot of good shopping and things around, you're always going to have people that want to move into that area because it offers the best lifestyle for those people. And so if you can find an older asset, you know, you're not struggling with the area to keep your units filled. It's just a matter of now offering an asset that people want to live in while they are in that area. So I'm really a value add investor, not doing like full major repositions, taking units in a C class area, that's 40% bacon and trying to fill them up. I like stable assets in a stable area that just needs some updating and operational efficiency in order to bring them up to today's standards. James: Good, that's very interesting. I never heard that from anyone else. Because the strategy is for you to look for the good area, but look for older buildings and try to improve from those older buildings, I guess. Anna: Yes. James: Okay. Interesting. But what about the like interior rehabs and do you do any like rehabs on the inside? And do you think is there any specific rehab that you think is more valuable than others? Anna: Sure, you know, it's really market-driven James's I know that you know, but for your listeners, every market demand something different. So where some parts of the country in order to get you to $1100 a month rent might demand granite countertops, and they might want really nice luxury vinyl plank flooring, other areas like tile, and they don't like granite, they like maybe stone countertops, and other areas to get that much, you might be competing with a $3,000 a month luxury apartment that would have granite and vinyl plank and maybe 1000 would get you carpet and a nice floor-laminate. So you've really got to look at what does your particular market demand and not just assume that every rehab has to be a cookie-cutter that looks the same. So what I do is I look at what is the competing market? What is the complex is offering to get that top rent that they're getting today? And I kind of secret shop those complexes or go on their website and see what those units look like. So for the 73 unit, for example, our property was a 1985 vintage when we bought it in 2018. So it was a little bit older, had a lot of original oak cabinets, plain commercial grade carpet, old looking vinyl. And basically we went in and we just changed up the flooring to vinyl plank flooring in the main living areas with carpet in the bedrooms. And the reason we did carpet in the bedrooms is because it's really cold in the northeast. And so a lot of people don't like solid flooring in their bedrooms. So we kind of save a little bit of money on doing carpet in the bedrooms and vinyl plank elsewhere. And we replace some countertops and updated old cream-coloured appliances to stainless steel, or very nice white depending on the unit. And then we painted the apartments, a soft, grayish color kind of more on the gray side. But the flooring has kind of had some greys and browns that go well with everything. And really for just a couple thousand dollars in new flooring and paint and some countertops and appliances, we were able to raise the rents $200 a unit. So it was a significant increase in rents because when we bought the property, not only were the units kind of dated, but the owners had not raised rents on several other tenants for several years. And so the property right next door to ours was asking 175 to 225 more a unit with the exact same floor plans as we had. So it was a great property because we didn't have to do a whole lot in order to bump those rents and achieve that big increase in value. James: Got it. So I want to go a bit more detail on how did you choose your rehab plan because you said you did countertops, you did stainless steel and a few other things there. But it's for example, how did you choose? Why did you want to install stainless steel appliances? Can you give some education on how did you go to that process, say I want to do stainless than black appliances? Anna: Well, and again, this is we've kind of left appliances, we've kind of played with it a little bit because we had so much room to bump the rents. And we looked at what is next door offering? They're the biggest competitor. So next door had certain units where they offered a premium package with stainless steel appliances. But the standard package didn't, it had white appliances. So we said for the first couple that comes available, let's do the vinyl plank, let's paint them. And if there's a cream color, for example, one unit had a cream color stove and a white refrigerator and cream color, you know stove and we said let's keep the brand new white refrigerator. And let's just put in a white dishwasher, a white stove and see if we can get the rent that we want without going stainless. So we did that on a few. And we had a huge waiting list of people that wanted those apartments, they couldn't care less about the stainless steel and so we didn't do it. So you know initially we thought we were going to go all stainless but people, we've been achieving the rent bumps we want without having to do stainless. And so we haven't done it at this point. James: Got it. Yeah, that's how you and I think that's a good strategy to look at the base on where you didn't want to overspend versus how much rent bump you need, right, because -- Anna: Yes. Sorry, go ahead. James: No, I mean, somebody can use that extra money for something else. Anna: Exactly. And the other thing, you know, because I focused primarily in my general area, I know the market like the back of my hand. So the buildings that we bought the 73 unit and the subsequent 31 unit that we just brought too, they're basically my direct competition. So I know what tenants are looking for, I'm already offering it in my town. And basically within a 30-mile radius, we know this is what the market demands, this is how much room we can get for it. And so while people think, oh, I need to do all these fancy bells and whistles, you really just need to look at what your competition is doing it over, improve it to the level that you're going to get the top rent, but don't over-improve it to the point here that you're spending needless cap backs, that aren't going to get you that much of an incremental rent bump. James: Got it, sounds really awesome man. Let's go back to the slightly more personal side. Is there a proud moment in your real estate career that you are really, really proud of, one moment? Anna: One moment, I think, on my 73 unit, sitting down with my JV partner and his partner that he had partnered with stuff, and really being able to convince him that this was an amazing asset to invest in. And he agreed to fund my first large syndication deal. So I was just really proud that I was able to build up the financial knowledge and build up the confidence and the track record from what I had done on a smaller scale that investors would trust me to take their investment and really manage an asset well for them. James: That's where you broke out from the four units to more than 70 units, which is a big achievement, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. And I think that and the day that I retired, when I was able to retire from a job where I worked with accredited investors to be able to say, you know what, I'm retiring, I've replaced my income, I've more than doubled it, I'm now an accredited investor. And I don't ever have to work for someone else, again, I think is probably one of the best moments of my life. James: Yes, that's really important. Can you name like three or five advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk along your path? Anna: Sure, I'd say educate yourself as much as you can, you know, listen to these great podcasts and just learn from people that have already done it because you learn the things not to do and you learn that the good habits to do to kind of make yourself an excellent investor. So really commit to your education, podcast, read some books and attend some local investor meetup groups so that you can align yourself with other investors. So one is education. One is networking and alignment. And you'll get some continual growth and continue education just from learning from people that are in your network that are already doing what you want to do. I would say also start really looking at yourself and what your goals really are. So like you said early in the podcast, many people think they want to be a real estate investor. But when they discover how hard it is to do so, they kind of back off and maybe flounder for a while. And all of us can do that if we really don't know why we're doing something. So look at yourself, ask yourself what you really want in life. And why do you think real estate can get you there and then back into how much time and money am I willing to commit to my real estate investing venture. And if you don't have a lot of time, you've got to commit yourself to find money or finding other people's money or working with other people. And if you have a lot of time and not money or I think vice versa, then you need to really be willing to put in that time. And so look at your why; look at your time and your money and start figuring out how best to utilize every moment of time that you have, every moment of cash you have and other people's time and money so that you can start to scale as quickly as possible. James: Awesome, awesome. So Anna, why don't you tell our listeners how to get hold of you? Anna: Sure. So I'm on Facebook as Anna ReiMom Kelley. And I have a Facebook group called Creating Real Estate Wealth that lasts with Anna ReiMom, where we talk about real estate and really creating wealth and kind of the good, bad and the ugly of all the different asset classes. And you can email me at info@reimom.com. James: Well, Anna, thanks for coming into the show and providing tons of value. Anna, you gave a lot of very good perspective from how you juggle your role between being a mom and being a wife and trying to grow the business and I think our listeners would absolutely get tons of value out of this. And as I say there's no reason not to be successful in anything that you do and real estate is just a tool. You can be successful in anything but you can be successful if you really put your heart into it. If you really, really want it you will be successful. I mean, if you give reasons, there are tons of reasons you can give not to do something. Anna: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, James. It's been my pleasure. James: Thank you, Anna, bye. Anna: Bye.

Anna Jordan talks to Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, author, speaker and candidate on The Apprentice in 2018. We discuss how to build a business at home and how to get started with sponsorships.   Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Read the transcript for the podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, speaker, author and former candidate on The Apprentice. She came to the UK from Canada in 2007 as a first stop on her European backpacking tour but decided to stick around and work as a sponsorship director at the Data & Marketing Association instead. In 2010, Jackie began building her business, Slingshot Sponsorship. She sold the firm in 2016 and is now running REBEL Pi, a Canadian ice wine company.  We’ll be talking about building a business from home and how to make sponsorship work for you. Anna: Hello, Jackie. Jackie: Hello, Anna. Anna: How are you doing? Jackie: I’m very good, thanks. Great. Let’s start with your arrival in the UK. What made you decide to give up your backpacking adventure to work in London and build a business here instead? Jackie: Honestly when I arrived – I’m from a small town in Canada – my experience was minimal. I’ve always been very ambitious and very determined. A lot of the people around me were not so much. So when I came to London it really was to explore Europe because obviously people talk about it and I’d never been to Paris. When I landed in London I was just overwhelmed with the energy of the city – not necessarily the energy you’d get from a city like New York but the people and the views that the people had here and the types of work that they were doing. I met a lot of people in finance and I didn’t even know that was a job that you could have and I was just blown away. It wasn’t an immediate thing. I was supposed to be here for two weeks and then travel the rest of Europe and then I was like: ‘Oh, I love London, I’ll stay a couple more weeks, that went on to a couple more months and then I was like: ‘I don’t want to leave’ and then over time I thought: ‘I just really want to stay here.’    When you launched Slingshot Sponsorship you only had a laptop and £2,000. How did you support yourself financially in the early days of the business? I’m sure a lot of our listeners will want to know. Jackie: Not well! I’m pretty frugal, actually – generally. But basically, over those initial months I just cut back hardcore. I didn’t really leave the house for weeks on end. I wasn’t eating beans on toast, but I was certainly eating a lot of ready meals and stir fries and cereal. But for the first, I’d say, year and a half, I wouldn’t even go to Starbucks. I couldn’t even afford takeout coffee, quite frankly, because every single pound I saved was going towards hiring my first employee and it was really hard. Slingshot got successful early, but I didn’t really have personal money for at least two or three years, I’d say. And you know, I only literally just bought this house when I sold the business. Up until then, all my friends owned houses and I couldn’t afford to – I was renting. But I always had it in me that I’d make that sacrifice. We’re recording in Jackie’s house, by the way, just for a bit of context. What about income? Jackie: So, £2,000 could pay the rent for four months, basically, and I took a couple of commission-only things. I had a lot of small clients. It took me nine months to secure my first client. So, I’d take small jobs that’d pay £500, £600, £1,000 and I’d just live off those kinds of things and those kinds of projects. I worked hard to try to get people to give me money, like all small businesses do, but I was really conscious about how much money I spent. And our website is a great example. When we launched Slingshot I went out to loads of agencies, everybody was quoting something like £7,000, £6,000 and I didn’t even have the money. I ended up going to a digital agency who I knew through the Data Marketing Association and asked to swap, to be kind of like a case study for them. It was kind of like a guinea pig thing and I ended up paying, like, nothing for it. I just bartered for everything. Anna: It’s interesting because they say entrepreneurs, even when they start earning a lot more money, still have the frugal mindset all those years later. Jackie: Yeah, I’ve always been like that. My husband jokes a lot because before I sold Slingshot and after I sold Slingshot – there’s no difference. We have a nice house and we’ve had some great travelling experiences for sure. But I don’t spend a lot of money – we don’t spend a lot of money. Almost all of the money I made from Slingshot has been reinvested in other businesses. I bought our house which is a huge accomplishment for me, but everything else has gone into making more money.            Anna: Usually we ask about our guest’s specialisms, which in this case is sponsorships. Jackie: It’s everything, Anna. What do you mean, just sponsorship?! For a beginner, what is sponsorship and how can a small business owner make opportunities work for them? Jackie: In a nutshell, sponsorship is a collaboration between two businesses. Most people look at sponsorship as a transaction of giving somebody logos or branding or badging in return for money, but in a lot of cases the big sponsorships are done in contra. In a way, the website agency I was just talking about – I swapped to be a case study for them and they gave me a website. In a sense that was a sponsorship and I think the future of all business is sponsorship. Most people will be familiar with stuff like FireFest and Beats by Dre. All of that is sponsorship.     Any kind of collaboration between two organisations is effectively sponsorship. How do you handle that first approach, then? I imagine that those relationships and creating those first impressions are very important. Jackie: Actually, one of the things you said was the right and the other thing you didn’t. A lot of people think it’s who you know. Everybody thinks: ‘Well, I could sell sponsorship if I just knew the head of HSBC.’ I know the head of HSBC and I’ve never ever sold him anything because I everything I ever had wasn’t a good fit for what they did. Knowing people isn’t the point but what you also said is having a first impression. Where people fall flat is they don’t really understand what they’re selling, they don’t package it very well and they don’t value it. It’d be like going into a shop without a price tag, with rubbish stuff in the window, you wouldn’t go in. Same deal with sponsorship. And I think there needs to be an increase in professionalism for making those approaches and I think that Slingshot was testament to that because effectively, that’s all we did. I didn’t create events, I didn’t make something better – I took what I had and made it valuable to brands. When a small business is starting out, what kind of information and events can they seek out to help them? Jackie: I think there are two things. If you’re a rights holder, say you are an event or an online publication or a podcast or a travel blogger or whatever, it really is about how you package your assets and then understanding which brands to approach. I’ve written a book called Pinpoint which is the only book dedicated to sponsorship sales. If you are a brand looking for a sponsorship, that in a way is easier because everybody wants money but from a brand perspective, it really is Is the event you’re interested in going to speak to your target audience? Do you have a good reason for being there? Is it authentic? Are you going to approach it in an interesting way? How can you connect with people in a genuine and authentic way? And that’s best done by market research? Jackie: I think it’s dependent on the brand but yeah, market research, I think, understanding your audience. Let’s just say you’re after mums. Let’s say you’re a new gym for mums, or… I don’t know, I’m not a mother, this is the worst thing to go! You can actually look for a platform out there to reach mums. Race for Life is a huge one and it’s in local communities. But let’s say you want mums based in Leeds. You can find forums and groups within Leeds and the events they’re approaching or the physical venue space. There might be a digital community or a forum and then say: ‘This is my product and I’m interested in working with you as a sponsorship.’ Not advertising – I’d never recommend advertising. And most people will have a sponsorship package. What kind of things should you be looking for in that package, then? Jackie: I would always look for opportunities that go beyond a logo – I don’t think badging is valuable anymore. Brand recall used to be valuable in the 80s, but we’re hit with 60,000 messages a day now. Your brain just gets tuned off. So, I’d be looking for what kind of assets engage with your audience. Speaking opportunities would be something because they give you an opportunity to talk. Guest blog spots, posts, can we run a joint promotion, a campaign? Can we distribute free product? Those are the kinds of things I think really push the needle on sponsorship.     As mentioned in the intro, these days you’re running Rebel Pi, an ice wine company, which is quite a niche. It’s also quite a risky business – you were explaining that it’s very dependent on temperature, weather conditions and people being able to pick grapes quickly in the middle of the night at short notice. How do you manage this risk, particularly in terms of cash flow? Jackie: I’d probably say that I’m not managing it well. I went from selling ideas to selling a physical product which I wanted to do to test myself. It is very hard from a production standpoint because the only way to make ice wine is picking grapes at below -8C. If it doesn’t get below -8C, you don’t have a vintage, you don’t have a product. So, you have to be patient, you have to work with really smart people in the vineyard who know how to create ice wine each year and you have to be willing to ride it out. In our first year, we’ve done really well, we’ve sold about 60pc of our bottles. It’s now listed in places like City Social, 67 Pall Mall, Pied a Terre, Dinner by Heston – all those kinds of top places. Now for me it’s asking: ‘Do we have enough production for next year?’ We’re holding back stock, so that if we didn’t get a vintage next year, we could then still distribute. I wouldn’t want you to be able to go into a restaurant, be able to order it and then next month you can’t – for 12 months. I’m managing stock but from a financial perspective, I’m taking a hit, basically. I’m not talking about being profitable on this until year three, really. It will be – if all things go to plan – it’s not winter yet – if all things go to plan, it should be fine for next year. But in the event that we’re not, I’m looking long-term at this.   I created this product because I was on TV and I didn’t want to waste my 15 minutes of fame. I wanted to have something that people could buy. That was a stupid strategy because the majority of the people who watch The Apprentice are 14-year-old girls. They can’t even legally buy my wine! I launched the business with an expectation that was incorrect and I’ve had to fix it. I’ve changed the strategy and everything’s fine. It’s great – I’m super-excited to be working with a product that you can touch, you can taste – I’m excited about it.     It does seem like you have a very clear target market, especially the premium which I think people are moving away from more disposable, fast type things to buying less but better quality. It’s a better direction to go in. Jackie: For sure – people are drinking less, people are buying less, but when they do it, they want to enjoy it. That’s certainly what I’ve found personally, and amongst my group of friends. And the greatest thing about ice wine in the UK market is that almost nobody’s had it. When do you get to give somebody a first? It’s so unheard of. I’m so excited about that.          Yeah, for sure. You mentioned The Apprentice and it giving you a kind of platform. But you were already a seasoned and successful entrepreneur when you went on The Apprentice, having sold Slingshot. Alan Sugar even fired for you for being too experienced to be the business partner that he wanted. What did you get out of the programme in the end? Jackie: I’ll go back to the first part. The only reason I did The Apprentice was because I sold my business. I don’t know if I would’ve had the courage to do so before, but I’d built enough of a name for myself so if I came across looking awful, at least I had a fallback on my previous success. Well, I mean you don’t know. You have no idea what you’re going into, so I was lucky. Anna: So much of it is in the edit as well, isn’t it? You never know what’s going to happen! Jackie: It’s unrealistic to think that – first of all, it’s an entertainment programme and I am not stupid to not be aware of that. It would also be naïve to think that you are 100pc great 100pc of the time. There are very long days, you’re working with people you don’t know, you have no idea what to expect, you can’t prep at all. All of those mistakes that I made that were absolutely hilarious, I totally made. That’s not an edit, that’s 100pc what I did because that’s what happens – that’s what happens in life. You just don’t have a camera following you around 24/7 waiting for you to mess up. But in terms of what I took away from it, so when I got asked, I was like: ‘I don’t even know if I can do this’, but then I did. My husband was very kind and said if I was awful, we would fly to India and blow off steam for a year. Fortunately, we didn’t have to move. Now, in hindsight, if you asked if I would do it again I would do it in a heartbeat. It was so different than what I expected. What I got out of it was experience doing totally different things which I love. If I could spend a year doing that every single day, I would. Anna: Oh yeah, the variety’s so much fun. Jackie: I got to make doughnuts, I sold stuff at a bodybuilding thing, I created an art gallery. You couldn’t do those things in a lifetime. I was really fortunate to do that. I still talk to Claude Littner (one of Lord Sugar’s advisors) a lot and he’s been great and met some great people on it as well. What was your favourite part of the process? Jackie: I think my favourite part – at the time it was pretty stressful – I can say that I didn’t love being in the house. I loved doing the tasks. My favourite task was possibly the art task. Wait no, actually, that’s a lie – the shoe task! I lost, but my favourite task though. What made it your favourite? Jackie: I got to design a shoe! I love shoes and I got to be the boss, which I like to be because it’s easier. It was a lot of fun. It also played to my wheelhouse like selling stuff to businesses – and B2B sales is what I do. You said you got along well with Claude. There was one contestant you didn’t have a particularly good relationship with. What advice do you have for working with a personality that clashes with your own? Jackie: I think The Apprentice isn’t a real-life situation. My recommendation to myself was having more patience which I did not have. In a real-life situation, honestly, and this is not what people would say – avoid the person, quite honestly. You won’t always get on with everybody, and people won’t always get along with you. And that’s OK, there’s nothing wrong with that. Being able to work with somebody that you don’t like is an asset. I wouldn’t try to beat a dead horse. You shouldn’t really be there to make friends with people, you’re there to do your job. You should also try not to make their job harder. My honest advice would be to have minimal interaction with the person you don’t like. Anna: Just trying to stay out of each other’s space, I guess. Jackie: Which in The Apprentice was impossible because we were living together!   Anna: Smashing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jackie. Jackie: Thanks for having me, Anna. Anna: You can find out more about Jackie at jackiefast.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.    

Anna Jordan meets Piers Linney, an entrepreneur, investor and former Dragon on Dragon's Den. We discuss the most memorable pitches from the show as well as Piers' first foray into entrepreneurship.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on starting a business and raising external finance. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Piers Linney, an entrepreneur and investor who is best known for his time as a Dragon on Dragon’s Den. We’ll be talking about Piers’ enterprising beginnings and how you can drive your small business forward, even during difficult spells.  Anna: Hello Piers. Piers: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you? Piers: Very good. Anna: Great. OK, as the intro suggests, I’d like to go back a bit. As we know, it’s easier for entrepreneurs to get started earlier and reach a larger audience, helped by the likes of selling platforms like eBay and Depop. But you were just as entrepreneurial, even when you were a teenager – that was before the introduction of social media, apps. I understand that you used to sell the Sunday papers, but you bypassed the… Piers: Ah, you’re going way back now! [laughs] Yup, yup, I did. So, you bypassed the newsagent because you saw a gap in the market there and you want to the wholesaler and distributed the Sunday paper around your neighbourhood. Piers: Yes, so, just going back to your earlier point. The fact that you can start a business more easily these days – there are platforms that help you in terms of distribution – it doesn’t mean you should. It’s still about the idea. What I learned early on – I’ve always been fascinated about business, really – I grew up in a village in Milltown, so a lot of the neighbours had their own businesses. I didn’t really know anybody who had a job in terms of getting up in the morning and going off to work. They were builders, joiners, jobs that you work with your hands. Maybe owned a quarry. I sort of thought: ‘Right, I had a job’ which was my paper round, which paid £5 a week. If I was late it was £4.50, which shows you how long ago this was. And I thought: ‘This is just a mug’s game’. It was very cold up in the north in those days. Global warming’s made it easier. And I thought: ‘What can I do?’ So, one morning on a Sunday when they [the newsagent] didn’t deliver, my dad said to me: ‘Could you get me my paper? I don’t want to get out of bed.’ And I said: ‘OK, I’ll go and get it for you.’ And he gave me 50p. I said: ‘Hang on a minute, that’s pretty good money compared to what I’m earning on my paper round.’ The next-door neighbour said to me: ‘Oh, can you do the same?’ My dad was telling him about the new service. And I thought: ‘Hang on, there’s something in this.’ I flyered my whole neighbourhood and built a paper round. I was earning £15-£20 on a Sunday morning for doing a bit of a longer paper round, but it was first entrée and my first understanding that if you find a niche and you find a product or a service that somebody wants and it adds value to their lives, and they’re willing to pay you more than it costs to deliver that service, i.e. it’s profitable, then you can create value and – in this case, it was a small example – some wealth. I used that money to buy my first and very expensive BMX. And through that I understand that the idea’s great and the execution clearly, but what it also came down to is a lot of hard work and graft. I Imagine it must’ve taken quite a bit of confidence as well at that age. How did you approach the wholesaler and how did they respond to you? Piers: I’ve never lacked self-confidence and it’s probably something that’s helpful in being an entrepreneur. Becoming confident or becoming a leader in many ways is something that can be instilled in you or you can be born with it, or it’s something you can learn. In the military, they can train leaders. I was always confident, and I could see the opportunity to make money. And again, the wholesaler, all he got was another customer, it just wasn’t a newsagent. His bundle of papers, rather than drop it outside a newsagent, was dropped off at someone’s house, at a residential address. He didn’t really care – he was just making a bit more money.                 I understand that your mother set up her own business after retiring from nursing in the NHS, I’m sure that was some kind of inspiration to you.   Piers: People say to me: ‘Who are your role models in life?’ I’ve never had formal mentors. My initial role models were my parents. My dad was a Mancunian working-class lad who got into Cambridge on a scholarship, so he was bright. Then after that, it was people that I worked with. I’ve always worked with people who are more senior that are better than me. Then after that, I’ve always tried to hire people that are better than me. I’ve had three meetings today and they’ve all been with people that know more about something that I’m looking to get into. And that’s really important because you never have all the answers. The world’s moving so quickly now and the market is so dynamic that you can’t be expected to have the answers. And if you think you have, you’re probably wrong. What would you say in terms of small businesses being able to hire better talent? Perhaps because they’re nimbler, they can innovate at a faster rate. Would you agree with that? Piers: I’ve been through this quite a few times where you’ve got a small business and you want to attract talent. Now, a couple of things: the first one is that, really, you shouldn’t be concerned about where talent resides. If you want to have a talented forklift truck driver, they probably need to live reasonably close to your warehouse. But if you’re looking at the creative economy and tech-based businesses, talent can live anywhere now. It doesn’t matter. The idea of a city even is arguably unnecessary going forward into the future. Don’t worry about where talent is, just go for the best talent. You’ve then got to be more creative to access more talent because they’re going to have more people talking to them, they might have a nice cushy job in a big company. You’ve got to be more creative about how you bring them onboard, about renumeration. If you’ve got a company you intend to sell or float one day, you can offer people shares. You shouldn’t give shares in a company that’s intending to be a lifestyle business forever – unless you’re going to make money in dividends. Think about how you’re going to add value to their lives. A lot of the entrepreneurs I come across think that these senior people who are joining them are doing them a favour. But you’ve got to remember that you’re doing them a favour actually because if they didn’t want to leave corporate life and do something more interesting and entrepreneurial where they have a better work-life balance, they wouldn’t be talking to you. And when you bring people onboard – no matter who they are, how talented they are – think very carefully about handing out shares. Make sure that when they leave, for whatever reason, you can get them back. But the talent is out there. And the other thing about talent that I’m very passionate about is diversity. There’s a pool of talent. If you’re looking for people who look like you, have the same religious beliefs as you, same sexuality as you, they live in the same area and went to the same school as you, you’re limiting your talent pool. Don’t do that. You need to think about diversity in all of its forms, especially in terms of thought as well, to access a broader and deeper talent pool. That’s the competitive advantage. There’s a huge amount of talent out there. I’m a trustee of Nesta as well, the innovation charity, and if you look forwards, the research about robotics and AI, menial jobs and even jobs such as accountants and lawyers [are at risk]. Software’s pretty good at adding up numbers, it’s pretty good at looking at datasets and applying logic to it. It’s not just Uber drivers and forklift truck drivers that have got a problem; it’s the professions. So, creativity is what differentiates us from the machines. And the talent you access in the future is going to have that creative edge. My mantra is that you’ve got to have a plan, but your plan has to have some growth in it. Add some creativity, some innovation, some differentiation to your product or service to attract different customers. Having no plan for growth, in a world that is changing very quickly, is a very bad plan. You wake up one morning, and you find your market, your customers, your product, your supply chain – something’s changed which means that you’re no longer relevant or you no longer have a profit margin. Anna: I was actually reading an article about ice cream vans the other day and they seem to be a type of business that – there are some that have moved forward but a lot of them are in the same types of vans, still doing your normal vanilla with a Flake and they haven’t moved on and they’re wondering [why they’re falling behind]. Piers: They should be doing smoothie vans! Anna: Yeah! Piers: It doesn’t matter what you do, 20-30 years ago – I’m generalising now – you could do that. I don’t think it’s a wise plan these days – ice cream van, corner shop, tech company, it doesn’t matter – to rest on your laurels. You’ve got to keep talking to your customers about what it is they want so you understand change, ideally before it happens.                        You’ve spoken a bit about instilling the values of entrepreneurialism. How are you doing that with your two daughters? Piers: Another interesting thing I’m quite interested in is the future of work, the future of employment. Dell has some research that says in 30 years, 85pc of the jobs that exist don’t exist today. There’s other research that says ten years out, half of them don’t exist today. You’ve got an education system that’s training your children to enter a world that the teachers don’t understand, that I don’t understand. It’s very difficult. They’ve got to equip kids with these sorts of skills and keep them as a rally car, as I call it, to the unweighted so you could go left or right as you go over the brow of the hill – and that’s hard to do. My daughter – I’ve got a daughter called Tiger. I got called into school, actually, by the head teacher. She said she’s been selling things at school and they need to talk to her. I thought she’d made a couple of quid. I asked what happened and the teacher said: ‘She got some erasers and she was making them funky and selling them on at a margin.’ I asked how much money she made and she said £60. They said that I need to tell her off and I refused. I take the point about taking money off the other kids, maybe there should be some kind of bartering, but I’m not going to punish my daughter for being entrepreneurial and making some money – that’s all she’s ever seen me do! Anna: Exactly. Do you know who her dad is?! Piers: It was quite interesting to see that. I bring them up to – they’re young, so I don’t really sit them down and go over how to start a business with them. But I think they get it, that my view is that – especially when they enter the labour market – is if you can, work for yourself. It’s got its problems, you sacrifice, it’s got its risks, but at the end of the day you’re masters of your own destiny. You seem to have a knack for identifying emerging markets as well [Piers launched cloud tech firm Outsourcery before the cloud was popular]. What kind of emerging markets do you see coming up?  Piers: I was into the telecoms which was the tail-end of that, really, the particular way it was done. I was into cloud and cloud is the way things are now. Since then I’ve been looking at what I do next. I made some investments, some work and some don’t, and I’ve been looking at doing something big, something disruptive. I’ve been looking at wellness, so health, fitness and now I’m looking now more at going back almost into what I know, which is markets, SME services. I’m trying to disrupt those because a lot of them just have not changed, even since I was in them ten years ago. And even ten years before that, they haven’t changed. I think there’s an opportunity in there in services for small to medium-sized businesses to disrupt markets.      Coming on to everybody’s favourite, Dragon’s Den. I’m sure you would’ve had a lot of pitches in your time on the show, but which was the most memorable one for you and why? Piers: There’s two, I suppose. I’ll give you the negative, funny one first. That was Bathomatic, which was a chap that turned up wanting £1m or £2m for 20pc and he had a product which pretty much filled a bath and dropped some rose oil in it. I said I’ll do that myself actually. I don’t need to spend £15,000 on something that turns a tap on and off. We asked what the money was really for. He had this pretend plaque/device that didn’t really work, it was a mock-up, and he said he needed a floor in the Shard for the marketing suite. You laugh at that, but I’ve heard about entrepreneurs who have got equally bonkers ideas and raised money from people. That was one of the comedy moments. The most interesting one for me was a company that at the time was called Lost My Name and now it’s called Wonderbly. That was the leading producer of personalised children’s, it was books, now it’s increasingly content. They raised investment from the likes of Google and other venture firms, and they’ve been growing. I was one of the first to do real tech on Dragon’s Den. There were four or five Israeli entrepreneurs walked in the Den and they all had their venture capital term sheet and I thought: ‘What’s there not to like?’ They knew what they were talking about and that’s been very successful. So hopefully out of Dragon’s Den I’ll make some money because it’s like a portfolio – some work, some don’t, some you lose money, some make money. Anna: Yeah, it was as you were saying as well, personalisation is a huge market and growing, as is tech, so combine that – Piers: Personalisation is everywhere now. I’ve met lots of founders recently and whether it’s books or baby’s clothes, technology allows you to do that now. It was very hard, very expensive to do this. Companies like the Moonpigs and all those kind of people in the world and the moo.coms, personalised greetings cards and business cards, is normal now. It was very hard to do a decade ago, so personalisation is somewhere where you can really add value. People want to see personalisation, they want to see provenance, they want to know the founder’s story. The new consumer that’s beginning to amass disposable income, they want to see more, they don’t want to have some clever advert that’s sold on something they don’t really want. But increasingly, people are interested in – not all sectors – but they’re interested in where did this product come from, who’s put it together, what’s the ethos of that business – how do they treat their customers, their employees, the environment – locally, globally. That’s what you need to think about because especially on the eco side of things you’re seeing now that the Millennials, whatever you want to call them – Gen Z – Millennials now have the… Anna: Hiya! Piers: Like yourself. Millennials are mid-level managers in most companies now, they’re moving up, because they’re getting older. And they are changing the way in which products and services are consumed – because these were little things that didn’t matter too much, they were seen as ‘got to have it for the marketing’. Now you’ve got to have it because if you don’t have it, they’re not going to buy your product or service. Anna: And it’s so easy to research as well. So, if there’s something you fall down on, people can research it. Boom – there you go. Piers: That means you have to be transparent about it as well.  Because if you’re not, people are going to start asking questions. You don’t have to be, always. There are lots of people that make good money out of businesses that don’t do any of this. They just found a product. I mean, mobile phones. I used to be in mobile, and people made a lot of money out of it and the service was pretty awful. But at the end of the day, they had a product that selling it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Because it was an amazing new product that everyone wanted, nobody had one, so you couldn’t really go wrong – and those markets haven’t really changed much since. At the time of recording, it is Small Business Advice Week. This year it’s running from 2nd-8th September. First off, it’s a little bit difficult to get around this topic and it may very well change by the time the podcast goes live. What advice do you have for small businesses to prepare and operate in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Piers: Well, the problem with that is that we don’t know what a no-deal Brexit means. That’s the bad thing about it: we should not be in this position. The economy depends upon entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship and innovation. And having a period of time where – and I’ve seen this – on a large scale and also on a small scale, where investment, decisions, sales cycles, things have been delayed. That slows the economy down and it has slowed the economy down and that’s going to continue. And even if we end up with a no-deal, and it’s been said that over time, we’re all dead. So, if you’re looking at it in one year it’s probably bad but in five years, ten years, things change and water will find its level again. But there’s going to be a period of time where the innovation in the UK, the economy and entrepreneurs are being stifled. And I don’t care what the outcome is, we should never have been put in this position. So, in terms of answering your question, it’s very hard. It actually makes sense, and I hate saying this, it does make sense in many ways to delay investments. Maybe in terms of marketing or looking overseas or EU relationships or your supply chain. Just give it a week. It was worse six months ago, at least now you’re looking at maybe days and weeks. It’s a very hard question to answer. Anna: It is, isn’t it? Piers: It’s incredibly frustrating. Anna: Yeah, we’ve had so many people ask. Piers: There’s no easy answer to that, sadly. Possibly something a little more positive. What is the most common question you get and what advice do you give small business owners in return?    Piers: One thing I’m talking about this week a lot is financing. I’ve worked in the US quite a lot and you look at entrepreneurs there and even small business owners, the ones who aren’t looking to grow exponentially, it’s about if you need to grow a business sometimes, your net income, your profits, don’t provide sufficient capital to fund your growth aspirations. You need to raise money. That could be debt, it might be equity. It depends where your business is in its life cycle and its profitability, and your balance sheet. And a lot of UK entrepreneurs, it seems, are afraid of raising external finance. So, raising external finance isn’t for everybody, but given the numbers are 70pc-80pc of UK businesses would rather forego growth than raise external finance, that needs to change. I don’t know exactly how much, but by changing it you can put more into the engine of the UK economy, and how these businesses grow. And that’s really simplistically about understanding your options. There are lots more options now: peer to peer lending or challenger banks or angels or angel funds, crowdfunding. There’s lots more ways you can raise capital which you couldn’t do five, even three years ago in some cases. Go and look at the options if you need to grow, understand them and then it comes down to a contract. Be happy with the terms of that contract and the small print. Can you lose your business, can you lose your shirt? Are they draconian terms? This is where you need a good lawyer, I’m not joking about that either. When someone hands over a term sheet or a document for debt (or a shareholder agreement if you’re looking at equity), you need to understand exactly what that means for you and not just if things go well. You need to understand what happens if things don’t go well. Extreme examples – there’s no point having an investment agreement where you are restricted, you have a veto of you raising debt and equity if you need to raise more because they can hold a gun to your head, essentially. There’s no point having documentation for your start-up which says that in year four, you will hit this EBITDAR number (Earnings Before Interest, Depreciation, Amoritisation and Restructuring or Rent costs) or they have swamp rights. They can take over the board and fire you. They’re extreme examples, but I’ve seen them. Both professionally and I’ve seen them in things put before me as well. So, understand the detail and the small print and make sure that if things don’t go to plan, you know where you stand. And I’ve known one example recently where someone built a business, they had a 12 million evaluation, they raised £2-£3million and within a month, they were out. They missed some sales target. But don’t be afraid of raising finance if you want to grow because otherwise in many, many cases, you can’t really grow. Anna: Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything else that you’d like to add. Piers: No - we’ve covered some ground there. Anna: Thanks for coming on the show, Piers. Piers: It’s a pleasure. Anna: You can find out more about Piers at pierslinney.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on starting and growing your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Anna Jordan chats to Caprice, a supermodel turned entrepreneur. She tells us more about the struggles of the model stereotype in starting her first business and protecting your brand when you enter a licence deal.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about starting a company and Government funding for small businesses.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Prefer to read it instead? Here's the transcript. Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Caprice Bourret, a former model turned businesswoman. You might recognise her from the front covers of Vogue and Esquire or from her appearance on Channel 4’s The Jump in 2017. She’s here to talk about moving into the business world and the experiences that came with launching her lingerie brand, By Caprice and her homeware range, By Caprice Home. Anna: Hi, Caprice. Caprice: Good morning! Anna: How are you? Caprice: I’m…OK. Anna: Nice. Right, let’s crack on. When you retired from modelling you were well-known and then you moved into the business world where you were relatively less well-known. How did you rebuild your reputation in another field? Caprice: That took quite a few years. I’m not going to paint a beautiful picture because it wasn’t. The stereotype was quite severe. I didn’t think it would be that difficult coming from being a well-known model to having credibility in the business world was difficult. But it took a lot of tenacity and I had to ascertain stockists. So, I would call up and go directly to the CEO and try it that way because with buyers I was a bit chopped liver, regardless of who I was, so I went to the CEOs. I said, “Listen, I’ve got this great idea and this great brand”, ba ba ba. And most of them – you know, when you invest in a new brand, you’re talking about a massive investment in some regards. When I started, it was a licence deal so they would invest. I know because I invested at least a half a million into a new brand, so I know it was a hard sale. And then when I started supplying myself, I didn’t have any sales so they just thought, “We’re just not going to invest – we could go with this brand and we know off the bat that we’ll make a quarter of a million in the first drop. Yeah, she gets notoriety and she gets press but we don’t get any sales traction.” So it was really really difficult initially. The stereotype worked to my advantage in a way because I did get the meetings with the CEOs or the CEOs went to the buyers and said, “Listen, you have to take this meeting.” But then it worked against me because they thought, “Oh, a model. Come on, she’s going to be here one day and out the next. Forget it – we’re not going to make this investment.” But all I needed was one stockist and I got the one stockist and then I worked at it and the sales were great. Then I went to the other stockists and said, “Listen, you can stereotype all you want but I got the sales.” So, I had to be very patient and in business it’s hard. Every time you fall down you’ve got to get back up and if you think you’re not going to fall down, then shame on you, because it happens. The ones that are successful are the ones who keep getting back up.       Anna: You must have thought about branding yourself before you retired from modelling and building it up slowly. How did you start that when you were still modelling?   Caprice: Welp, I have to tell you that when you’re in the modelling business – and not only the modelling business but when you have some notoriety behind that and you become sort of a household name – you start to believe your own bullsh*t, I have to tell you. It’s fantastic on the ego but you don’t think it’s going to end, ever. But for some reason – I think because I know what it’s like to not have enough money to eat – I know what it’s like to be really really down and out, from nothing. When I was 18, my mom said, “See ya, good luck, write me a postcard!” I had no money, it was hard. When I started building my career, it makes you a different person: it makes you a grafter, it makes you hungry, it makes you smarter. So, I knew that the modelling industry would – I was in my 30s and that’s, like, one foot in the grave regardless of how successful you are, so I knew I had to think of Plan B. So, I thought, “What will everyone buy into?” Boom: lingerie. Easy peasy. Right? So I had to think about that while I was at the top of my game because that’s when I had the power – which I did – and I initially started out with a licence deal because I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, so I let someone else take the risk. I convinced the CEO of Debenhams to do that and he did and that was a smart risk to take because I made them very very rich! Then I took the licence back and started to supply myself.         Anna: Let’s talk a bit more about the licensing. You were doing that six-year deal with Debenhams and with By Caprice Home you’ve just done a licence agreement with Sadaqat. They must’ve been totally different experiences. What kind of tips do you have for entrepreneurs who are going through that licence agreement process for the first time? Caprice: So, every deal is different. Let me explain what a licence deal is to begin with. I give them my name and they develop my brand and supply it. Boom. You get five to 12pc of sales. Now with Debenhams, they had creative control, they basically did everything and all I had to do was say, “OK, that’s pretty, yeah great”. It was pretty straightforward stuff. But with Sadaqat it’s a different kind of deal. I have creative input and control, because my name is much more established and I need to protect my name. So, it’s even more to my advantage to be more intertwined and not just to say, “Here’s my name, go get ‘em, bad boy, let’s do this.” With the Sadaqat licence deal I had to build my brand first, [they] didn’t just take me on board with this new idea. I was supplying myself for two years – and then I had the power. Then I went to Sadaqat with gold on a tray saying, “Hey, listen, after two years, we’re making money.” And they were like “Oh, oh.” They’re like the Victoria’s Secret of the home world so there were no qualms – they took it. Obviously, the contracts are iron-clad, you have to – but even with the lawyers I’m telling them what to say and what to do. I mean, you’ve got to be careful. You’re lucky if you get a good lawyer and a good standard contract but you even have to tweak the contract. You have to protect yourself, you have to protect your brand because when you enter the corporate world, they don’t have the same passion. They don’t dot their ‘i’s or cross their ‘t’s. They have more money than God. You know, even though I have a licence deal, I’m very intertwined. Every single stockist I’ve gotten myself – even with Sadaqat – but I have this monster machine. I’m still micro-managing my brand right now. And for me it was really important to go with one of the big boys because now we’re expanding to the world. I just got into Bed, Bath and Beyond, into Macy’s, I’m hoping to sign a deal with this massive conglomerate and they base themselves out of Dubai so I wouldn’t be able to expand the way I’m expanding now [without Sadaqat]. This is another thing in business: you need to know your strengths and your weaknesses. Though some people become very complacent, “Oh we’re making money, we’re making six figures, this is great”, ba ba ba, but you have to keep growing. If you stay stagnant, you will die. And I didn’t have the capability to grow my brand. I needed more people – and even though I was working 12-hour days, I’d just had two babies and they are my priority and they are my business. So, I just couldn’t do it myself and that’s why I went for a licence deal. Anna: Do you feel you were slightly taken advantage because of your lack of business experience in the early days? Caprice: If you think you’re being taken advantage of then boo-hoo on you! It’s your responsibility to go out there and to learn, so that no one ever takes advantage of you. So I’m never a victim here. I am taking full responsibility for everything that happens in my life and that’s my power and that’s what I recommend to all – especially – I’m all about the women and I’m such a supporter of women in business and women in general. Don’t ever be a victim because a lot of us play that card. Don’t do it – you lose your power. You’re not a victim – you take responsibility and you move forward. I learned every integral part of my business. I mean, I trained the people who are so-called ‘specialists’. I know how to manage my brand, I know how to market my brand, I know how to negotiate, I know about the factories. I know a lot about production – I don’t know everything about production – but it hasn’t been a detriment to me, not knowing everything about the factories. But I made it a point to educate myself and I never went to university, I’m a grafter. It’s all about Googling, researching, asking and just doing. Sort of learning from the streets, learning from your mistakes and never making them again. Anna: Has Brexit had any impact on the business? Caprice: Yes. With the exchange rate – massive. Not so much on me anymore. When I was supplying myself, it killed me. The sterling dropped so tremendously and then obviously sales were impacted. It’s tough, I’m not going to lie. Retail is tough. That’s why I need to expand to the world. Anna: I’ve read that when you started By Caprice that you made underwear and swimwear that you wanted to wear and that went wrong because sales suffered as a result. Caprice: Oh my God, everyone knows?! I know now that my personal taste, no one else likes. So I will never let my ego get involved again because I lost money. It makes me laugh with corporates, right – they spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on these marketing research groups. Just look at your sales! Look at your weekly sales and understand your customer. Anna: I understand that you were looking at the sales when you were partnered with Debenhams and that’s how you got ahead and got yourself out of the licence agreement to start supplying yourself. That’s what I do, every single week. I’m obsessed with sell-through on every single stockist and that’s how I get to know my customers. And you know what? By the way, my customer changes. It used to be so young and I catered to that. Now, maybe because I’m middle-aged, it’s getting slightly older: age 18-42. It used to be 18-30. So I have to cater to that, the designs are different – they’re a little bit more elegant, a little bit more timeless, rather than quirky and fun. Anna: Now we have more celebrity-led products, but you were among the early adopters. Caprice: I was the first one. I know Elle Macpherson was doing it but only in Australia, she hadn’t come over [to the UK], so I was one of the first ones. That’s why it was so difficult for Terry Green – he was the CEO of Debenhams – to come on-board right away because this was a new concept. It wasn’t tried and tested. He took a big leap and was hailed king of innovation as a result because we sold out in, like, two weeks. This was the initial stages in 2000, I think. That’s why I initially stopped doing a licence deal with Debenhams because I knew I wouldn’t be the flavour of the moment and they’d dump me. I had to be on top of my game and supply myself to other stockists while my name was hot, while the brand name Caprice was popular – and respected. Anna: How do you think celebrity products have evolved since the early noughties?        Caprice: You know what? It’s saturated. The market is absolutely saturated with celebrity endorsement. I think with some of the celebrities, it works for a year and they’re finished. Then they see who the hot Love Island winner is of that season and then they go with it. With my product it’s different. I actually supplied, I actually paid for the business, I’ve actually become a brand name. I’ve gone past the celebrity endorsement. This is a business.     Anna: What kind of difficulties did you face in moving away from Debenhams? Caprice: The biggest difficulty was that I was risking all my own money. In that first drop I almost lost a quarter of a million. That hurt! And then with the exchange rate – although it impacted me in 2009 – I lost over a million, just in exchange rate. I was so silly. I didn’t understand forwards, I didn’t understand how to buy currencies because remember all my factories were in China, so I was paying for everything in American dollars and then I was getting paid by my stockists in sterling. So I was constantly exchanging money and I just didn’t understand how to do it properly. I didn’t understand forwards, I didn’t understand how to hedge, I would just buy on-spot. How stupid was that? It went from 2.05 to 1.37 almost overnight. I didn’t understand it so I lost a lot of money, so I never made that mistake again. Anna: Of course, because you have to wear all the hats, as they say, when you’re a business owner but there are some things you just don’t have a natural knack for. Caprice: No, and you know what I did? I did research and there’s some great, great Government funding and you have to go and research it. And there are people out there who will help you. This country encourages small business. There’s so much help out there – it’s really, really impressive, actually.    Anna: Was it a combination of the money you made from modelling plus Government investment? Caprice: Yeah, it was my savings, which I lost a lot, so I was hurting. Yet my brand was doing really really well.  By the way, everyone, I pay all my taxes and I’ve paid a lot of taxes for the last 500 years. I have the right to access this and I was smart enough to do this, otherwise I would’ve lost my business. Anna: It can be so volatile. Caprice: Oh, you just don’t know. Not only that, I had to completely readjust my business plan. But thank goodness, one thing that was really important to me was the people who worked for me – I’m quite loyal. So, I wanted that to be the last port of call to get rid of any employees. You’re supporting families, for goodness sakes. So I was fortunate enough to keep my employees but I had to readjust my whole business plan.    Anna: What kind of adjustments did you have to make? Caprice: Well, I had to cut back, even my collections, I had to cut back. I couldn’t take any risk anymore. Before, I was buying a lot of extra stock because I knew the buying patterns of my stockists and my stockists were buying differently. They were much more cautious. And they weren’t buying enough – I knew they weren’t buying enough. So I would take that risk and I would buy deeper at my own risk. I had to stop doing that. So it did impact because I would run out of stock and that’s not good for a business as well – if you’re selling two months later then you have ‘out of stock’ all over the place, it’s a disaster, but I couldn’t take that risk anymore.   I think for people starting out, understanding cash flow, because normally when you start a business you don’t see a return for three to five years – know that. And passion – you’ve got to be obsessed with what you’re doing because you live it. Anna: Great. Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything you’d like to add or any other wisdom. Caprice: Honey, we killed it – ten times over! Anna: Ha! Thanks for coming on the show. You can find out more about Caprice at capricebourret.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for entrepreneur Q&As and other advice to help you start your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

With My Gothic Dissertation, University of Iowa PhD Anna M. Williams has transformed the dreary diss into a This American Life-style podcast. Williams’ witty writing and compelling audio production allow her the double move of making a critical intervention into the study of the gothic novel, while also making an entertaining and thought-provoking series for non-experts. Williams uses famed novels by authors such as Anne Radcliffe and Mary Shelly as an entry point for a critique of graduate school itself—a Medieval institution of shadowy corners, arcane rituals, and a feudal power structure. The result is a first-of-its-kind work that serves as a model for doing literary scholarship in sound.  Anna M. Williams This episode of Phantom Power offers you an exclusive preview of My Gothic Dissertation. First, Mack Hagood interviews Williams about creating the project, then we listen to a full chapter—a unique reading of Frankenstein that explores how the university tradition can restrict access to knowledge even as it tries to produce knowledge.  You can learn more about Anna M. Williams and her work at her website. This episode features music from Neil Parsons’ 8-Bit Bach Reloaded.  Transcript [ominous music plays] [CRIS CHEEK] This…is…Phantom Power. Episode 15: Goth Diss. [sound of wind blowing] [ANNA WILLIAMS] It’s May 4th 2017, and I’m in room 311 of the English philosophy building.  [jazzy music plays] Room 311 is a windowless closet crowded with a conference table and rolling chairs that currently contain the five members of my dissertation committee. A radio scholar, A romanticist, an 18th century-ist education theorist and Victorianist. [MALE VOICE] So we’re here to talk prospectus and I welcome you with my colleagues. And we’re interested in raising constructive questions that will help you with clarifying focus, the scope, and the process because the process is so interesting. [ANNA] It’s the job of these five people to advise me over the next months, or more likely years as I write my dissertation, which is the only thing standing between me and my doctorate in English. What we’re here to discuss today, isn’t my dissertation per se, but rather my prospectus, a Microsoft Word document spanning anywhere from six to 20 pages that describes the dissertation, the one I haven’t written yet. In this way, think of the prospectus as a sort of dissertation permission slip, a sheet of paper that once signed allows me to climb on board the bus and head into the field of academic literary criticism. And if I don’t earn my committee signatures at the end of this meeting, then I guess I’m going to have to stay behind and eat my bag lunch all by myself. [music fades out] [MACK HAGOOD] Hey, everyone, its Phantom Power. Sounds about sound, the podcast where we explore sound in the arts and humanities. I’m Mack Hagood. My partner, cris cheek is out vagabonding. It’s summer, I caught sight of him via social media on the Appalachian Trail. As you hear this, he may be in London or Rome. cris, if you’re listening, I hope you brought your recorder with you pick up some good sounds for us. And yeah, it’s summer. But there was something I wanted to share with you because it’s hot off the audio presses. One of the really nice and unexpected fringe benefits of doing this show is we’ve started to get invites to come and talk to folks about how to do academic work in sound, and what the potential of podcasting is in the world of sharing ideas. And so I was giving one of those talks at the University of Iowa. And people were telling me we have a PhD student who is doing her dissertation in podcast form. The author’s name is Anna M. Williams, and her project is called My Gothic Dissertation. [carnival sounds and music play] It’s a study of the Gothic novel, something that many literary critics, like Williams have studied in the past. But she does it in podcast form. And she uses the Gothic novel as a venue as an avenue into ...

Heirloom KitchenBy Anna Francese Gass Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book Podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York city, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Anna: Hi, this is Anna Francese Gass and my cookbook is Heirloom Kitchen: Heritage Recipes and Family Stories from the Tables of Immigrant Women.Suzy Chase: I don't think we as Americans acknowledge enough how the cooking traditions of immigrant women have left a legacy on the American palate. Talk a bit about how you've cooked with grandmother around the country to compile this cookbook.Anna: Yeah, I mean, I think it was kind of a aha moment for me as well. I grew up in an Italian home. My mother came over from Italy. I actually was with her. I was one years old, and my mother always cooked the food of her homeland and that's what I grew up eating. I was obviously very aware of American food. I loved "American Food" but in our house it's all those staples from the Italian kitchen because that's what my mother grew up eating. That's what she knew how to cook. What happened when I did the project and when I started it, I realized, but I guess I always ... We all kind of know this unconsciously, we just don't talk or think about it, but immigrants from all over the world that come here do that exact same thing. No one is coming over from China and starting to cook meatloaf and steak. They continue to make their homeland foods, and because these women did that, starting all the way back from when immigrations really began in this country, that's how we created this amazing diverse food landscape that we call American food.Anna: I mean, if you think about meatballs, okay yes, their origin is Italian and that's where the women learned how to make them, but when you go out and you have spaghetti and meatballs, I mean you can have that at almost any restaurant. I think spaghetti and meatballs is as American as apple pie, so to speak, but the reason that is, the reason we've accepted these things into our culture is because nobody stopped making those foods the minute they came over here into the US.Suzy Chase: So let's move on to the women who immigrated to the United States that are in this cookbook. What was the process of getting introductions to these 45 women?Anna: So what happened was so nice, is that it really spread word of mouth. The way the whole project started was I just wanted to get my mom's recipes written down. I'm a recipe tester by trade. That's what I do for my living. I do it primarily out of my home and I love my job, but I realized I didn't have any of my mom's recipes written down, none of those were standardized and I really wanted to cherish and keep those recipes forever. My mom still cooks when we go over on Sunday, so there was never that need to learn, but then I realized that there's gonna be a day that my daughter wants to know how to learn ... Excuse me. Wants to know how to make those recipes, or her daughter, and you know, my mother isn't always gonna be able to cook them. So we started as a project, a family project, and I created a family cookbook, and then I had a moment that I thought, "Wow. I have all these friends from all over the world, many first generation kids. This is a service I could provide. This would be a fun blog. This is something I could do as a hobby." So this all started out with just a blog.Anna: So I sent an email to literally every friend I had with a first generation background, and the response was overwhelming. Everyone said, "Oh my goodness. I want you to cook with my mom. I want these recipes recorded." It was like a service I was providing. I was getting to learn all these authentic homeland foods, and they were getting recorded recipes. Then they were all gonna go up on the blog so I could share them. Once the project started and my blog really took off, then word of mouth created the next opportunity. So I was cooking with Iraqi woman for example, and she said to me halfway through cooking, "You really need to cook with my friend [Sheri 00:04:19]. She's Persian. She makes the most amazing Tahdig. You need to know how to make that." She made that introduction, and so on and so forth. So it started with friends and then, like the last couple of women I cooked with, I didn't even know the children. It was just that word of mouth.Suzy Chase: It's so funny, I was gonna ask you if these recipes were hard to get, but it just seems like it was just effortless and it just happened.Anna: It just happened, and you know, it's so funny because people will say, "Oh, grandma's secrets." Or, "My grandma would always tell people the wrong ingredients or the wrong measurements because she didn't want anyone to make it just like her." Or, "This was secret." I didn't encounter that once. It was, "Let me share this with you, I want you to get it perfect. We can make it again." I mean, there were times that I had to follow up, because I'm in there with a pad and paper scribbling as they're throwing things in the pot, and then when I went home and recipe tested it, it's like, "Wait a minute. Was it, did this go first? Did that go first?" So sometime I'd call and say, "I just want to make sure I'm getting this right." And everyone was more than willing to just sit on the phone with me to make sure it was absolutely perfect, and these women were with me during the cookbook process too, because then a recipe tester has a question, or a copy editor has a question, and I don't know if it was luck, but I came across the most generous women I could've ever encountered.Suzy Chase: What's one new tip that you learned from a grandma you met along the way? Maybe a life tip or a cooking tip.Anna: Wow, there's a lot. I feel like I learned so much in each kitchen. I learned first of all, I should probably take a step back. Once I went to the first home, it was a Greek woman Nelly in Long Island. We start making her pastitsio, her Greek dishes, and just by accident I said, "Hey Nelly, why did you come to the US?" And she just started telling me her immigration story, and while she was telling me this story, I'm thinking about how it's similar to my mom, or different, but the threads are the same, and I thought to myself, "This is just as important as the recipe, because why she came here and how this all came about is so important to just our historical oral knowledge of all these women." So I started writing down immigration questions before I went to the next appointment, because I wanted to know exactly why each women came here, and the stories were dynamic, and incredible, and inspiring, and that ended up going up on the blog too.Anna: Just the fact, if you think about when you go on a trip today, right? You go on trip advisor, you ask you mom friends, you do all these different things before you head out, so that when you show up at your location destination, you're an expert. These women didn't have that. There was no world wide web, there was no cellphone, pictures or whatever. They just packed their bags and went. One of the women said to me, because [inaudible 00:07:31], "What made you do it? What made you get up one day and say, 'You know what? I'm leaving everything I know. I'm leaving my family, I'm leaving my friends and I'm going to this mysterious place to start a new life.'" And she said, "You know, what people from the US don't realize is the US is so enchanting. When you're not from here and you think about The United States Of America, there's a dream there. There's a dream to be had." And I just found that so special, and I think as Americans it's something that we should embrace and understand that we're so lucky to be here, and it's why other people want to come.Anna: So just that tenacity, that courage, I just found so inspiring.Suzy Chase: So in Heirloom Kitchen, it's organized with the recipe, a story, and a lesson. Talk a little bit about that.Anna: When I went in and I was pitching cookbooks to all the different editors at all the different publishers, that was very important to me. I said, "I understand I'm sitting here. I am proposing a cookbook to you, but I think the only way that this is really gonna work and is really gonna be as special as I want it to be is if we also share the women's immigration story, because I think that's half the story." I'll tell you, when I'm making the recipes, I think about the women and I think about their story. I learned a whole bunch of different cooking techniques, for example the Palestinian women taught me how to make Maqluba, and Maqluba means, in Arabic means upside down. So it's this rice dish that you make in a pot and then at the end, when it's all done, you literally flip it upside down and you take it out of the pot and you're left with this mold, and I will tell you, I made a couple of that, did not work, but phone calls back and forth, I figured out how to do it and it's so satisfying when you turn this pot upside down and this beautiful, delicious, rice dish comes out.Anna: So I just think that the book is what it is because you are getting the lessons and the stories, and the recipe all broken down for you, and obviously categorized by continent.Suzy Chase: Your mother is in this cookbook. I found it interesting that she wanted nothing to do with pre-packaged frozen dinners that were the rage when we were growing up, and they were supposed to make our mom's lives easier.Anna: Yeah. I have the chicken pot pie story in there because I think it's quintessential immigrant mother lure. I think that it's very funny and I think that a lot of people will also really relate to it. Yes, I mean, when we were kids all I wanted was a Marie Callender's chicken pot pie. I watched the commercial, it looked so delicious, and why did I have to eat this Italian food every night when I all wanted was this chicken pot pie? So she relented and bought it, and cooked it incorrectly because she didn't read the directions. She just kinda threw it in the oven and that was the end of our chicken pot pie, but I think for my mother, and especially, it's hard to make generalization, but for at least the women that cooked with, the immigrant women that I cooked with, is they value the food that they create so much that the pre-packaged ready in five minute meals, what you were saving in time, it wasn't enough.Anna: It wasn't enough for them to say, "Okay, you know what? Forget my stuff, I'm just gonna do this." And it's funny, the women from Ghana told me that there were times her daughter would say to her, "Mom, we want to take you out to eat tonight. Let's just go out. We don't want you to cook. Let's just relax." And her mom's like, "No. I'd much rather eat my food. I don't need restaurant food." And I laughed when she told me that 'cause my mom doesn't like going out to eat either.Suzy Chase: Really?Anna: So funny. I think it's a common thread because there's so much pride in what they're creating, and it does keep them tethered to their homeland, which is still so very special to them. The cover of the book is my mom making Tagliatelle, which is a hand-cut Italian pasta, and I watched my grandmother make them, and obviously my mom grew up watching her mother make them, and when my mom makes Tagliatelle, we think about my grandmother who is obviously now past, but it's just so nice to have that memory and eat food that tastes exactly like how my grandmother used to make it.Suzy Chase: The story that you told about your mom really shows that she viewed her new American identity as an extension of her Italian identity.Anna: Yes. Absolutely. I think when they came here, these women, right? They were very brave, and they learned English, and I talk about my mom getting her citizenship and going to ESL classes to become an American. That's very important to them and they're proud to be American, but they also needed to create kind of like a safe haven. You go out in the world, you have an accent, you're an immigrant, everyone knows that, so when you come home at night, what's gonna make you feel safe? What's gonna make you feel comfortable? It's your food. The minute you start cooking and the meatballs are bubbling, or you have the rice cooking, or whatever it is that you made back in the homeland that you're now making here, food transports you. I can get transported to the past just as much as it gives you energy to catapult you into the future.Suzy Chase: I think my very favorite photo is on the inside page of the cookbook. It's the one of the hands forming either ravioli or some sort of dumpling. It's fascinating how you're drawn, how I was drawn, to this woman in the photo. Is that your mom?Anna: No. So that is Tina, and she is making traditional Chinese dumplings, and she makes everything from scratch and then she just sits there and pleats all these dumplings and they all look exactly the same and they're perfect. What I love about ... But first of all, my photographer Andrew Scrivani was just a genius. He is a genius and he does a lot of work for The Times, and it's because he's so wildly talented, but his whole thing was, "I want to see hands." This is food that you make with your hands. Nobody pulled out a food processor, nobody used their Kitchenaid. It was rolling pins, hands, mixing spoons. I had women using mixing spoons that they literally brought over from their country. They hold up a spoon and say, "This spoon is 45 years old." But that's the food of our grandmothers, right? They didn't have all these gadgets. They weren't sous vide, they weren't hot pot. So that was very important in the cookbook, to have a lot of hands, and I'm so happy that you were drawn to that photo because it is so tangible, right? Like you feel like you're standing right next to her while she's pleating these dumplings.Anna: She told me that, so they make Chinese dumplings every New Year, and what I love about this story is, she said that the women would get up, and they make the filling, and they make hundreds of them. So all the women in the neighborhood would come together and sit down and while they're pleating the dumplings, they gossip. So it'd just be a totally gossip day making [crosstalk 00:15:14] for dinner.Suzy Chase: I love it. On Saturday I made the recipe for tomato sauce with meatballs on page 25. Was this your grandmother's recipe?Anna: Yes. To be honest with you, it was probably my great-grandmother's recipe. My mother also spent a lot of time with her maternal and paternal grandmothers, and they all had the same techniques to make all these different dishes. So yes, the Brodo di Mama, which is mom's tomato sauce, and the Polpette, which is meatballs, come from a very long line of women. My grandmother did a couple things that were different. One, as you know, she uses some of the sauce in the meatball mixture, which we feel makes them very tender, and there's no pre-frying or pre-baking, which I know a lot of people do. These meatballs just get simmered right in the sauce, which not only does it eliminate a step, once again, we think it makes a very light and airy meatball.Suzy Chase: At the very beginning of this recipe you steep garlic, basil and olive oil. I feel like this is like the magical secret ingredient to this dish.Anna: Yes. By creating, and almost kind of liking it to a T, because you're infusing this olive oil at a very low temperature to kind of marry all of those delicious ingredients, so that once you ultimately strain the garlic and the basil out, you're left with a very aromatic olive oil, which is the base of the sauce. Now, my grandmother was obviously a trend setter in her day because now you can buy so many infused olive oils.Suzy Chase: What do you tell people who see a recipe, or who will see a recipe in this cookbook, and think, "That's not how my mother makes it."Anna: Oh, I'm so glad that you asked that question, and actually, if you read the very beginning of the book, I do address that because I think we play a lot nowadays with the word authentic, I know you probably hear that word all the time.Suzy Chase: All the time.Anna: And you know, what really is authentic? How could we really put our finger on that, right? So what I'm saying is these are my mom's meatballs. She's from Calabria, it's very similar to the way in her mom's village probably made them, but you know when you get in the kitchen, that's your recipe, and you might, your husband might not like garlic, or your son doesn't like the pinch of hot pepper flakes so you eliminate that. So I think, what I would love this book to do for people is kind of like the way I look at any cookbook or even food magazine, is use it as a jumping off point. Let it stimulate in you those memories of your grandmother. So let's say for example you're Greek and you buy this cookbook because you want to know how to make Spanakopita, and then when you get to it you said, "Wait a minute, my grandmother didn't use cottage cheese, she used ricotta." Or whatever it is, but it gets those creative juices flowing, it gets those memories flowing, and that's what I really want this to do.Anna: I do want you to try the recipes in the book. They are phenomenal, they are delicious, they're grandma's greatest hits, because everyone gave me theirs best dishes, but don't fret if it's not just like your grandmother, because your grandmother was special and she made things her way, just like these grandmothers made it their way and hopefully it just creates a new, that nostalgia for the homeland foods.Suzy Chase: Grandma's greatest hits. I love that. I think the main sentiment in this cookbook is maintaining the culture of our origin countries was not a statement, it simply created the comfort of home in a new place. I think we all deserve the comfort of home.Anna: Absolutely, and I think whether you're cooking a recipe from Poland, or literally you're just making your kids some brownies after school, I think that that's what food does for us. Food is the one thing that we all had in common. No matter who you are, how important, everyone has to eat, right? So it's this common thread amongst every single person on the planet, and it does provide comfort. When you're hungry, all you want to do, all you think about is what you're gonna eat. I know for my kids, the things that I make that they feel are very special, or when I'm eating something in mom's house in a Sunday that she made when I was a little kid and I can think about those days. It's why I think the term comfort food was created, right? Because food provides comfort.Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called my last meal. What would you eat for your last supper?Anna: I think going on what I just said, I think my last meal would have to be something that my mom cooks for me, because when I'm eating something that my mom made, I know that that bowl of food is not only just filled with nutrients and everything I need physically, there is so much there emotionally for me, and it's filled with her love and her care, and everything that she wants me to have. One of the women that I cooked with said, "A mother is full when the children have eaten." And I think about that every day because I think that's the most important gift our mother give us, is nourishment and the memories of our childhood through food.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Anna: My website is annasheirloomkitchen.com and I'm very active also on Instagram, and I'm at @annafgass. So at A-N-N-A, F as in Frank, G-A, S as in Sam, S as in Sam.Suzy Chase: Heirloom Kitchens shows us that America truly is the land of opportunity. Thanks Anna for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.Anna: Thanks Suzy. This was great.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram @cookerybythebook, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery by the Book Podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks since 2015.

Anna Miranda is an intuitive coach who has dedicated her life to the study of metaphysics and utilizing many forms of intuitive arts to spiritually coach those looking to discover their true potential. Aside from her resume, Anna was pivotal in my betrayal journey and helped me realize the true purpose of my betrayal. Today, Anna is here to rediscover my healing journey, and share her wealth of knowledge with you. If you have ever been curious about creating soul contracts with yourself, partner and family, how to gain absolute faith and trust the universe, or get a closer look into how I dealt with my betrayal, this episode is for you. Anna is an advocate for believing in yourself, listening to your soul to tell you what to do next, and getting outside of the victim mentality. By letting go of the shame and embarrassment that goes along with sharing your betrayal, you can stop hiding and embrace and trust all aspects of ‘what is’. While vulnerability may be scary, it is the only way to fully unlock your true potential and ability for love. It is time to rediscover your vibrant self, and Anna is here to help. Are you truly open to vulnerability? Let us know in the comments on the episode page!   In This Episode Learn how to trust in your intuition again Realizing your betrayal as a gift to unlocking your true self Why sometimes you have to lose what that means the most to make a change How to ‘find the gold in the trauma’ Becoming truly selfless and vulnerable through soul contracts   Quotes “I remember thinking explicitly, I don't trust certainly him, I don't trust myself, at least let me trust in the universe. And Anna seemed to have this direct line” (3:04) - Debi “My only job is to help you tap into what you already are, to the essence of your being. That we tend to forget when we are in trauma” (4:00) - Anna “In soul contracts, we don't see obstacle or pain as a bad thing, we actually see it as a grand opportunity that your soul set forth way before it was even incarnated in this lifetime” (8:22) - Anna “It wasn't enough for me to heal personally. The injustice of it was so gigantic for me, that I said if I can heal from this I will have to do my best to heal as many people as I can” (24:55) - Debi “True authenticity has to come from a place of vulnerability” (33:31) - Anna   Links Anna Miranda’s Website   Check out the full show notes for this episode Women Hacking Betrayal Facebook Group Have you taken the Post-Betrayal Quiz yet? Keep up to everything From Betrayal To Breakthrough Follow Dr. Debi Silber on Facebook | Twitter | Youtube | LinkedIn

While Anna is away the mice will play. Tim and Dean have a corker of a show this week while Anna soaks up the rays in Bali. The GLLO team pop in, we analyse Karl […] http://media.rawvoice.com/joy_murphyslaw/p/joy.org.au/murphyslaw/wp-content/uploads/sites/209/2018/12/181210-DeanAndTimWithoutAnna.mp3 Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 51:11 — 35.1MB) Subscribe or Follow Us: Apple Podcasts | Android | Google Podcasts | Spotify | RSS The post Who needs Anna ? It’s the Tim and Dean show!! appeared first on Murphys Law.