Women’s Wellness — The Holistic Shift

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin are back together in this episode to interview Registered Provisional Psychologist Paige Burles. Paige specializes in child psychology, though she also works with adults, at Maliya. She explains why her passion is for helping children make connections and find ways of communicating needs and deal with struggles. Paige answers questions from both Lori and Alyssa about exactly what art therapy, play therapy, and behavioral therapy are and what they look like when used in working with children. Paige details how much information children can give when they are comfortable and communicating at a level they understand, such as during play. She examines the notion that children are seeking connection and by examining problematic behaviors we can identify unmet needs. Lori and Alyssa, both parents, agree and offer that parents are tired and can't be experts at everything for their children. A psychologist like Paige, who involves the parents in the therapeutic process, can be invaluable for instilling children with helpful coping skills that they will carry into adulthood.About Paige Burles:Paige Burles is a Registered Provisional Psychologist with the College of Alberta Psychologists. She holds a master's degree in counselling psychology and a bachelor's degree in child studies. Paige has been working in the field of mental health for 10 years and has a special interest in early intervention. Paige's passion is supporting young children from the ages 4 through adolescence. She has an exceptional ability to connect with children that have had difficulty trusting and working with others. Paige specializes in working with anxiety, emotional dysregulation, ADHD, trauma, adjustment and behavioral issues. This is Paige's true calling and she thanks you for trusting her with those who are the most precious in your life. Paige provides a safe space for your children to explore their experiences, facilitate deep change, and gain the tools necessary to support them throughout the rest of their lives. Paige prides herself on setting your children up to navigate their futures with support, guidance and unconditional love.  Paige also has extensive work experience with adults and would be happy to work with you if you are seeking relief from anxiety, depression, ADHD, trauma, emotional dysregulation, or wanting support with self-compassion, overcoming shame, setting boundaries, etc. Paige uses evidence-based treatments in her practice. She is trained in dialectical behavior therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, emotion focused therapy, mindfulness-based approaches, solution focused and brief therapy, and in prolonged exposure for treating PTSD.— Maliya: website | instagram | facebookPaige Burles | Registered Provisional Psychologist: website | linkedin TranscriptionLori Bean  00:56Hello, everybody, I am Lori Bean. Alyssa Rabin  01:00And I'm Alyssa Rabin. Lori Bean  01:02And we want to welcome today, Paige Burles, who is our psychologist at Maliya, who specializes in children therapy. Alyssa Rabin  01:13Child psychology, and pre-teen psychology. Thank God because I have one of each. Lori Bean  01:24And we just really wanted to talk today about why you should consider bringing your children in for therapy. So Paige works with kids from the ages of 4 to 13. When you know it's time to do that, what type of therapy she does. And we just know how incredible she is. And the feedback we get from parents, and how life changing this is, along with not only dealing with the issues they're having with their children now, but these tools that they leave with, which they can have with them for the rest of their lives, and really grow into these fully flourishing, self confident adults with all these amazing abilities to socialize and have the sense of self worth and-- Alyssa Rabin  02:13-- to be able to self soothe and more or less work on their issues instead of looking elsewhere. They leave with the tools to help themselves. So welcome Paige. Paige Burles  02:27Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Excited and nervous. Lori Bean  02:30It's all good. I think this is like such an important topic. My kids are in their 20s and back in the day, we really didn't take our kids for therapy or support at all, it really wasn't available unless your kids had very well known issues or it was advised by a teacher or... it took a lot to seek help. And it literally wasn't readily available. A lot of the times you'd have to at the hospital, you'd have to see a psychiatrist, and it was a rough go. And in reflection, I really believe now that if we had this available, there's no question I would have taken both kids even though they were fully functional. Every kid has an issue just for support, and I wasn't alone in navigating them. And I just would love to talk about-- Alyssa Rabin  03:29-- how it's changed. Lori Bean  03:30Yeah, how it's changed. Alyssa Rabin  03:32And Paige and I have just were just talking before this about how mental health and children and adolescents has - thank God - becomes so, not prominent, but there's an awareness of it, because it's been like this forever. And now we're just realizing, oh, it's okay. And we have help. Lori Bean  03:58Yeah. And we have, it's really about seeking help. There's no handbook as a parent. And, boy, imagine having somebody you can trust that creates this beautiful, safe relationship with your children. And they're not always looking to you and you're not always desperate for support. So maybe tell us a little bit about why this is your specialty. Paige Burles  04:19That's a great place to start. I'd love to. I think what really brought, well I know what really brought me into just really feeling passionate about working with young people was kind of my own struggles and then later in my life after going through many many unpleasant experiences in my adolescent years and early adulthood, finally getting support and learning all of these skills and all these things. I remember thinking, like, I wish I knew this when I was younger. Like I wish that, I think a big thing for me was even just the shame of the some of the struggles I dealt with. And then finally once it got bad enough to the point where, like you said, it's like now it's bad enough so we have to deal with it. Then realizing, Oh, the things I was struggling with earlier on were normal and other people struggled with that. And then this is what you do. I think one of the big things I learned early on was even just being honest, because shame just got in the way of comparing yourself to other people, and nowadays with social media, and kids need support because they are comparing themselves to the select few that are getting all the, you know, followers or likes or whatever it is these days, right? Alyssa Rabin  05:35Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Lori Bean  05:37So how do you know, like, I guess this is my question. All parents have challenges with their children. So how do you know - you have a four year old, so four is like sort of the age where you would start navigating care - how do you know it's time to seek help? How do you know as a parent, that they need tools that perhaps you're not aware of, or you can't provide them with? And there's not really like a disability, or they haven't been given a diagnoses? Like, do you know what I mean? Paige Burles  06:10Yeah, and I think that's a tough question. Because I think if it was really clear, your child's doing this, go do this. Yeah, that would be I mean, I wish I could, I wish there was something like that out there. And I think, listening to yourself of, you know, if you are noticing some struggles, I think, a big thing for me and why I love like, I go to therapy myself, even to this day, I'm like, no, I don't have any, like really big glaring issues that I'm not functioning or whichever, however, I've learned through therapy, and just, I don't know, all of my education stuff, that hey, I don't have to settle. So if there's something I'm struggling with, I'd like some support with, I've tried working on it on my own, or I've tried a couple things, not having some success, I don't have to just accept it. Well, that's just who I am. And I'm always going to be this way. Or, you know, my kid just is always going to do this - or I hate this - but I just have a quote/unquote bad kid or my kid just acts out. And that's, you know, no. Lori Bean  07:09They normalize the behavior. Alyssa Rabin  07:10And I, just speaking from personal experience, I have two girls, they're four and a half years apart, and they are the complete opposite. Like I'm talking I cannot believe they're from the same parent. So what I've been finding is what will work with one child totally does not work with the other child. And I don't know what does. I've tried everything in my ability to be a good parent, to help them, and it's still not working. And that's when I realize I'm not a psychologist. I only have tools that I was born with, that I've learned, that I've whatever, even if it's something as minute as they're having issues sleeping at night. I have no frickin clue what to do. I'm going to call somebody else to do it. I'm not a specialist, I need to go somewhere else to get the help. Lori Bean  08:08Yeah, cuz there's no, there's really, it goes back to there's no handbook and what worked for one-- Alyssa Rabin  08:12-- oh, does not work for the other. Paige Burles  08:15Or there's thousands of handbooks, and it's completely overwhelming, and is that going to fit specifically my child and what my child needs? And that's a great reason to go talk to someone who, myself, has read many, many, many of those books, obviously, not all of them, that's impossible. How could I expect any parent to do that? And I can take what I know and we can find a plan and develop something that fits for your kid, if your kid doesn't actually fit what this specific book is saying to do. Alyssa Rabin  08:43So how do you figure out what type of therapy works for which child? Paige Burles  08:49Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, in that where it starts, is it starts with connection. That's, I mean, overarching, if you look at things that contribute to success in therapy, it always comes back to the therapeutic alliance. That is, across the ages, it's we see that the therapeutic alliance. I think it's even tenfold with children, they need that connection. Alyssa Rabin  09:11So if they mesh with you or not. Paige Burles  09:13Yeah, so that's really important. I think that's what I feel, I'm not... you guys have known this in the time you've spent with me, I'm not one to kind of boast about myself. And I really feel like that's something I've just found is just a natural gift with me, is I can connect with children. Alyssa Rabin  09:30You know when you just meet those people, and you just know, you'd be like, Oh my god, they should be like, not just a kindergarten teacher, but an elementary school teacher who would be amazing with all the kids. Yeah, that's Paige. Lori Bean  09:42Yeah. Yeah, it is a gift that you have. Paige Burles  09:46So I think that's what it is, you know, it starts with connection. And then I really, you know, I involve the parents. I involve the child, you know, depending on on their developmental level and where they're at, like, it's really important that they're involved and they're directing therapy, because especially if some of these behaviors are coming because they're trying to gain a sense of control, we want them to feel like this is a safe space and that they have control here, we're not forcing them to do anything that they're not comfortable doing. It's going at their pace and meeting them where they're at. So I really think it starts with a connection. And then it's a team approach. Like, it's not just, like I said, I'm not the expert, I'm not going to come talk to a parent say, I'm the expert on your child, do this. It's let's work together. What do you know that works for your child? What have you tried, what's worked, what hasn't worked? Let's all meet with the kid to kind of get to know them. And then just start kind of incorporating. I really take this approach of, I'm a scientist, we're all scientists, we're doing trial and error. We're testing out kind of what works because me and my brother, too, very different. What worked for him, worked really well for him. I needed something completely different, right? I needed to find my own way. Alyssa Rabin  10:56I do love though, that you just said that you ask the parent what has worked and what hasn't worked? Because I have found in my past experience with taking my kids to therapy, I don't think I have ever had a therapist ask me that. And like, it's just like, I've actually got goosebumps right now, it actually just... oh my god. Lori Bean  11:24Yeah, because you're the person that knows. Alyssa Rabin  11:27And you're the person who has tried. So it's not just like you're beating a dead horse saying, do this, do this do this. That's genius. I love that. Paige Burles  11:38Oh, because your kid has ADHD, then you do this. It's like, well, that might not work for my kid with ADHD. It doesn't all look the same. Right? Alyssa Rabin  11:45If we've already tried that, and it's not working, or if we've tried something, maybe you can tweak it. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Paige Burles  11:51And how does that kid connect as well, right? Because I know for myself, I was not someone that was expressive through art. That was a struggle for me, whereas other children, that's what helps them get deeper. Lori Bean  12:07Okay, so I've heard a lot about art therapy lately. And we get a lot of questions, does she do art therapy? Alyssa Rabin  12:13Or play therapy. Paige Burles  12:15Yeah, it's so much deeper than that. Lori Bean  12:15Yeah, I actually have no clue what that actually is. Can you just explain it because my impression. And so, again, my kids are in their 20s. All I know about play therapy is back in the day, we learned that when a kid is sexually abused or assaulted or what have you, they get these dolls, which are parental figures or extended family, whatever, and they play out the interaction. That is that is the extensive what I know of play or art or whatever therapy, maybe you can speak to that a little more clearly. Lori Bean  12:29Yeah, why use it? Paige Burles  12:50Yeah, well, and I guess we'll start with this. And I learned this so so early on in my undergrad because my undergrad was child studies. I almost dropped out of school, I started in business school, thought this is not for me, maybe school isn't for me. And then let's just try this. And then I found it. So one of the first things they talk about is just how play is the universal language of children. All across the whole world, all children play. And that's how they learn and experience and process things is through play. So incorporating play into therapy is really just meeting the child where they're at and finding their avenue of how can we test this out? Or how can we maybe understand a little bit deeper of what's going on, that they might not have the words to put to yet. But maybe they're gonna express it through play. So play can provide a ton of information, it can also provide ability for connection with the child, and allowing them in their way, in a way that they feel safe doing, to explore, to be curious. I think we can all remember, you know, being kids with Barbies and just being curious. And it was a safe place to do that. And especially with therapy, I think therapy can be, you know, as much as I do my best to create this safe space and just my energy that I try to put out, can still be uncomfortable just to go and talk to a new person. And so finding a way to create or meet them on their level and allow them to lead it. Lori Bean  14:25Because I was just thinking, like, back to my daughter when she was little, she never really played, she did art. So she was very into art, but she wasn't really into play. So I think that's really interesting because you can just sort of see how they navigate whatever you present and follow their lead, I guess, to create that connection. Paige Burles  14:46Yeah, and that's the cool thing about play, incorporating play into therapy and using art, is that we can kind of remove the limits. Because with art, they just have kind of a blank canvas or whatever and some colors... I mean, you never know what's kind of going to come out. Right? And maybe it's going to facilitate a conversation of oh, like, you know what, you know, why did you choose this color and oh, because of this, and then it goes deeper and deeper. Lori Bean  15:13Can you give, I thought this was the most beautiful example you gave of a child that you saw that was quite anxious, and perfectionist, because I'm just thinking of myself. Like, if you asked me to draw something, I wouldn't, because it wouldn't be perfect. And what, are you going to judge it? And what have you? Alyssa Rabin  15:28You know, I know a good psychologist. Lori Bean  15:35But then you said, I thought this was so brilliant, you asked him to draw scribble, just scribble. Because there's no perfectionism in scribble. And then what did you do from there? Because I thought, I could do that. Paige Burles  15:47Yeah, so we started with a scribble, and then turned it into a picture. And that was just a cool experience. And again, like, when people hear play therapy, they might not even think that, and that is incorporating let's use something fun to practice. Okay, I can start with something that isn't perfect and I can turn it into something and create something with that. And that's what we were really trying to do is have some fun with not being perfect, not having to follow the rules. Lori Bean  16:15Draw in the lines or draw a duck or.... Alyssa Rabin  16:18Another thing that I love about play therapy, or art therapy, is the kid doesn't have to sit there for an hour and sit and talk to you. What child, let alone adult, from personal experience, can sit there for an hour and just talk? This way they're active, and they do things with their hands, and they're moving-- Lori Bean  16:43-- and expressing-- Alyssa Rabin  16:45--and describing. Now, during your therapy sessions, are the parents always involved in the sessions? Like are they always in the room with you? Paige Burles  16:53It depends, I really like to have time with the child. I think that sometimes when a parent's in the room, it can change the energy that's in the room. I'm very curious of what, is there a difference when this child is not in the room with their parents, versus when the parent is there. Not judging, just being curious and kind of noticing what happens. And I think that through art and stuff, that's a way that maybe allows them to kind of engage in something else if they do have some anxiety about mom not being in the room. Right? So an ability as well. Because if there is a child who's really attached to mom, doesn't want to leave mom, let's work with that. Let's give that child an opportunity to experience some of that and then process through it. And then talk about hey, how did you do that? Alyssa Rabin  17:41Well, interesting about that is, so my youngest, eventually realized she prefers therapy without me in the room. Because she said, 'You know what, Mom, I really realized I'm a totally different person when you're in the room than when you're not not'. And I'm like, 'Hmm I would love to be a fly on the wall'. Just kidding. But she really, really  realized how different she was with me there versus without me there. Paige Burles  18:20And how cool of an experience to have and then be like, I wonder what that's about. We don't need to judge whether it's good or bad or anything, but just notice that. What do you notice that's different? And then even if there's aspects that they kind of like, it's like, okay, how can we start to cultivate some of those things into your other experiences? Lori Bean  18:41So in addition to, like, art therapy and play therapy, there's something called behavioral therapy. So what is that? Is that facilitated with little kids? Older kids? I'm just trying to put the pieces together. Paige Burles  18:53Totally I think, I mean, behaviorism goes way, way, way back and when people hear behaviorism I think they think rewards and punishment. And it's much more than that now. And it was before as well. But how I incorporate behaviorism is really looking at, you know, when oftentimes with children, they come in because there are behavioral problems. The parents have identified, you know, the kid is, is aggressive or they're-- Lori Bean  18:56-- passive. It could be anything. Paige Burles  19:01Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alyssa Rabin  19:03Confrontational. Paige Burles  19:07Yeah. They're not, you know, not following the rules, or they're, you know, at school, there's problems. And what I find that behaviorism really helps with is really analyzing and being curious about what is going on, what is the function of that behavior, and what need is that behavior trying to meet? Because I think often, I mean, I experienced this, I wasn't the, you know, the teacher's pet or the favorite kid in the class. I was the kid that got kicked out and sat in the hall because I wouldn't stop talking. And I think we get labeled and earlier on, it was definitely you knew the kid that was the bad kid in class, right? And we'd go home and the parent would know who the bad kid in class was, and really shifting that, pulling away. Because, you know, what's the behavior? What purpose is that behavior serving? And what need is that kid trying to get met? Oftentimes, it's connection. Alyssa Rabin  20:20Okay, totally bringing childhood up for me. Had very loving parents, but had no idea how to relate to me. I had severe ADHD. It was never... Lori Bean  20:37It wasn't a thing. Alyssa Rabin  20:39It wasn't a thing, but they never knew how to handle me. It was always 'Why aren't you doing this? Why can't you do this?' Lori Bean  20:49Why can't you sit still?Alyssa Rabin  20:49Why can't you? Why can't you? Why? It was always on me. And there was never, let's sit down and see what's going on. And maybe if we can help you with this, if we can do something to succeed, it was always you're not doing this, therefore, you're not doing that. You know what I mean? They're like, holy reaction. Lori Bean  21:14And you can't, because you have all these behaviors, you can't do well, you can't succeed. Alyssa Rabin  21:21So you grow up, with zero confidence. Because you think you can't, you think you are not smart. That's what I grew up with my whole life. And still, as an adult, I went back to school and aced everything. But that was because I was on ADHD medication. Lori Bean  21:43But when we grew up, too, ADHD medication was Ritalin. Period. And it was bad. Alyssa Rabin  21:48Only the bad kids got it. Lori Bean  21:49It wasn't supported. Only the bad kids got it. Alyssa Rabin  21:52Oh my god. Paige Burles  21:53And the kids that are getting kicked out constantly, or making noise, or sitting in the back of the class. And for girls that can show up as the daydreamer. That was me, I was in my own little world. Alyssa Rabin  22:02Me too. I was in the clouds. And I was talking with everybody, and I wouldn't pay attention. And I didn't care but I did... Paige Burles  22:12Exactly. No, that's the thing is that kids want to well. The kids that, let's say, I mean, we do a lot better at this now, but even recognizing reading problems. And, you know, the kids that are struggling with reading, those are the kids that are trying the hardest. And when I was listening to a TED talk on the guy that he was talking about collaborative problem solving, he was talking about that, that, you know, the the kids that it just comes really naturally to, they're the ones that are doing really well. They're not trying hard. The kid that can't get through the page, that's trying really, really hard. So collaborative problem solving is about let's help that kid get, let's help with what's getting in the way, you know, because that kid wants to do well. So why aren't they? Alyssa Rabin  23:00So do you collaborate with the parents, the school, the teacher? Like everybody? Paige Burles  23:06The most important person to collaborate is that child. Yeah. Lori Bean  23:11How are they feeling? How are they processing information? And what is going on? Paige Burles  23:16Totally. And kids are so creative, like that's been the coolest thing, in my experience, in just allowing children to have just, like, open ended play and just open ended questions, and just allow them to create, to be curious, to just explore different ideas. Like imagine the conversations we'd be having in schools with kids if we really just allowed them to talk, like think out loud, and say things that are quote/unquote wrong. Lori Bean  23:48And you know what? For me just keeps coming back to this is why we need to ask for help as parents and get support because we are tired as parent. We are tired. You have one kid, like you said, that just does really well. They excel, it's easy. Your second child perhaps is more difficult. We're tired. We don't have the energy. We don't have the awareness. We don't know what we're looking for. We don't know how to help. We want to we get depleted ourselves and where our patience gets depleted, that's when we know. Paige Burles  24:22And that's so valid. Lori Bean  24:24Yes. 100% it's normal. But then we should be getting help. Paige Burles  24:30And even nowadays, like, what the kids are faced with in social media, in the schools, like we need to band together. Because every time I sit down with the kid I learned a new term. And I hear something new and no we're saying this now, no this. I learn what's cool and not cool. And a lot of things I say are not cool. Yeah, and I take that opportunity of like, they like to, like teach me, you know. They want to share that and they want to be, like, if you can just picture growing up if you played sports, you have coaches, you had that coach that's just constantly yelling and run harder, do this, do better, all that, versus that coach that is like proud of you for 'Hey, you almost made that. That was amazing. Like, let's keep going. You got this.'  And think of, as well, just what ends up being the voice in our head because for me it was that coach that said not enough, do better. Never like, not as good as this person, this person is the best, you like-- Lori Bean  25:38-- you're not enough. Paige Burles  25:39Exactly yeah, right. And what worked for that kid who was scoring all the baskets - I don't even play basketball - it's whatever's going on there isn't working for me. So work with me to find that out. Because what I needed was, I needed a different sport. I wanted to do dance, I wanted to, you know, and I had parents that helped kind of support that. And it took some time, though, but working with me of, you know, how do I want to work through this and and what does a solution to this problem look like for me? Because it might look different for someone else that's just telling me do it this way. Well that way doesn't work for me. I mean, TikTok, love TikTok, it's taught me all these different ways to solve math problems that are so creative, right? Whereas when I was in school, it was just like, this is the way you do it. Cross multiplication, what, I don't even know, whatever. Same with life. Life is math. I don't know. Alyssa Rabin  26:41Another thing I love, like you were talking before, that you have the parents totally involved. Because going through counseling with my kids, I always felt like I needed to know, not what exactly what they were talking about, but if there were any processes that they taught them, or any guidance there for if I could take it home, and I could help the child. Paige Burles  27:10That's so important, because I am with that... so let's say I'm with your child for one hour of a whole week, I don't know how many hours are in a week, but the change isn't going to happen in that hour, it's going to happen between the sessions. So bringing the parents in, because you're my best resource for modeling the behaviors that we're trying to teach the child, for providing as well feedback of what you're seeing, and troubleshooting, like, what works because again, like the same strategy, not gonna work for every kid. Lori Bean  27:42And I think sometimes as parents, we don't even see what we're doing. Like, for me, a lot of things have been in reflection. Like, oh, I was doing that. Like, you're so innocent. And sometimes we just need support to not be so embedded. Right. And get a different perspective. I think it's so normal. It's so important. Paige Burles  28:03I think in knowing that there's not one right way to do it. And that's what I think is overwhelming with all the information that we have online, this person says do it this way, this person says do it this way. And you're just trying to figure out what's the right thing to do. Lori Bean  28:19Yeah, and your child is an individual being, and we need to cater to them. That's kind of the bottom line. Paige Burles  28:29So yeah, so like, kind of circling back to when you talked about just behaviorism it's, it is so much more than let's just reward the things we like and discipline or punish the behaviors that we don't like. But it's looking at well, what what purpose, what function is that behavior serving? And then, as well, how might you be reinforcing that, or certain behaviors that you're not meaning to reinforce. Lori Bean  28:50As a parent. Paige Burles  28:51Totally. So I'll give an example that I really like to tell parents, is for children that are struggling with self harm, with suicidal behaviors, when that child self harms, or makes a threat about hurting themselves, and everybody drops what they're doing, and races and reacts and supports that kid, and what do you need, and we're here for you. What you might be doing is actually reinforcing the self harm. Because that kid learns that when I just, when it gets to this point, then I get what I need. But what they need is they need that connection earlier. So it provides so much information if we really look into the behaviors. And I need the parents for that, we need the whole team for that, is to understand. Because even when I look back at my life, and I'm sure we all can if we look and see things that we were doing, we were like, why was I oh, why was I like that? Or, you know, if I look back, I can see oh, this is what I needed that I wasn't getting and this behavior served this function, but then resulted in a bunch of other things I didn't want. So instead of just trying to change that behavior, let's go back even further and meet the need earlier. Lori Bean  30:04I'm even thinking of something so simple. So I, when I was a kid, I did not share what I needed, which probably a lot of kids don't, I had a lot of anxiety. But to get the attention and the connection that I was looking for, I didn't self harm, but I would like dress weird, or I would shave my head, or I would do... I'm just getting that now. I never really understood why I did those things. Yeah, I thought it was cool, whatever. But I know I was doing it to get a reaction that I was not getting. Alyssa Rabin  30:08Whether positive or negative. Some sort of reaction. Paige Burles  30:38Exactly. We even see this... I mean, I've worked in schools for, I worked in the school system for a few years, and noticing that, and even, you know, every time a kid calls out without raising their hand, but then they get the attention. And they might be realizing, oh, okay, so the attention, even though it's negative, is actually reinforcing that behavior. So we need to stop reacting to that. Because the punishment, quote/unquote, isn't working. And reinforce what we are trying to create more of and meet that kids need for connection. Alyssa Rabin  31:12Now there are other kids who actually do have issues. And it's not attention grabbing, because all I'm hearing in the back of my head right now is some parents going, but my kid doesn't have that issue. My kid doesn't, they actually have a problem, that's why they do it. So we're not saying that every kid is doing it for attention. Paige Burles  31:33Oh, my gosh no. Alyssa Rabin  31:34Like, there are some children who actually need some help. But trust me, my girls need to come see you. Lori Bean  31:46But I think, as a parent, that's part of parening. You can't give them everything they need. And you don't even know half the time. You just don't. Paige Burles  32:03Totally, and our kids, like, they're gonna struggle, we all struggled. And my struggles have brought me into the person I am today as well. So some of them, I'm like, oh, you know, if only there was, you know, someone that caught this earlier, and I've caught it now kind of thing. However, I do think I could have saved myself a lot of suffering and pain if I'd learned some of this stuff earlier in life. And that's what really just drives me to work with kids. I think that if we, as the world or our country or whatever, invested more into early intervention, we would save so much later on. Because it's preventative. Lori Bean  32:44Mental illness, physical illness, all of it, I agree Alyssa Rabin  32:49Absolutely agree. Paige Burles  32:50A lot of the adults that I've worked with, because I do work with adults as well. Alyssa Rabin  32:53Oh yeah she does work with adults. Paige Burles  32:58Like so many times, I've heard, like I've lost count, so many times I've heard I wish I knew this when I was a kid. Oh, I wish I knew this when I was younger. Like yep, like me, too. Me too. And we're here now so let's do what we can, let's teach our kids this. Let's, you know, let's, tell your friends. If you learn something cool in therapy, I'm like, tell your friends and help people. Like spread this. Lori Bean  33:21The bottom line is what I love so much, and I'm so grateful for, is all the practitioners here are here because they care deeply. And it is about safety. And it is about care. And help. Yeah, come over to Maliya, have a chat, see what we can help you with and support you with. Paige Burles  33:44And you know what, even coming back to the question you said before, about how do you know when is the time? Like book a consultation. We can figure that out together if now's the time, or even, I'll be the first one to say hey, I don't think I'm a good fit for you. Alyssa Rabin  33:58And we do here have, like, free initial consultation. So it'll be like a 20 minute phone call, in person, on Zoom. So you guys can come in, meet Paige, see if, like she said, it's a good fit. Lori Bean  34:13And what's possible. Alyssa Rabin  34:14Yeah, even like my last kind of bout in therapy, I was like, you know what, I just kind of want to level up, like, I just want to, you know, how can I improve the way that I'm functioning right now? So there doesn't have to be, you know, a glaring problem or anything. And, you know, let's teach the kids, let's teach parents some of these self regulation skills, some problem solving, how do we tolerate discomfort and distress. Because if it hasn't happened yet, it's gonna happen. So let's help now so then we're prepared. Lori Bean  34:49And we have the tools. Paige Burles  34:49Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me. Now I'm super chill. At the beginning of this I was not. Lori Bean  34:59Because when you speak your truth, and you're in alignment and in integrity with why you're showing up in the world, it's easy. We love you. Paige Burles  35:08Thanks for having me. Alyssa Rabin  35:10Bye.

Alyssa Rabin welcomes new Maliya clinic member Suzanne Easton to the podcast. Suzanne is a Mental Health Therapist and specialist in the Grief Recovery Method. She shares with Alyssa her passion for helping people through the Grief Recovery Method into relief from the burden of unprocessed losses. Suzanne explains how she long carried the weight of many losses and much grief in her own life. Her mother would say she was “an unending well of sorrow” and she explains how she felt she couldn't risk more pain as her “backpack of unprocessed grief” was too full. But when she found the Grief Recovery Method, she found tremendous healing and release for the weight of her losses, and she immediately knew she needed to share the program with as many others as possible. Suzanne details exactly what the Grief Recovery Method is, the many things that grief and loss can encompass and spring from, and how the program equips you to deal with past burdens and even future losses that you know will come. Suzanne's warm enthusiasm for the possibility of healing is a beautiful thing to hear.  About Suzanne Easton:Suzanne Easton, BN, RN has been practising as a Mental Health Therapist since 2006 and greatly enjoys working with clients in a logical, step-by-step manner as they learn to relate to their past experiences in dramatically changed ways.Whether loss (of any kind), grief, trauma, PTSD, CPTSD, incomplete relationships, insufficient coping skills, life transitions, depression or anxiety are draining your energy and joy, you are not alone. Many of us have experienced these challenges, and Suzanne is looking forward to providing skilled and compassionate support as you identify and bring about the changes you want. She is a trained ACCELERATED RESOLUTION THERAPY (ART) practitioner and a GRIEF RECOVERY METHOD specialist with a strong general counselling background and a mission to facilitate deep and lasting healing. In addition to private counselling sessions, with or without ART, Suzanne offers a seven-week Grief Recovery Method program to support you in moving past the traumatic experiences that have been keeping you from living your fullest life. This system will help alleviate the unresolved grief that is resting heavy in your heart, from a death, a divorce, or any other experience you wish to let go of. You will also emerge with the tools needed to address future losses, which will allow you to live more wholeheartedly, free in the knowledge that you now carry powerful resources for healing within you.  — Maliya: website | instagram | facebookSuzanne Easton | Mental Health Therapist & Grief Recovery Method specialist: website | linkedin TranscriptionLori Bean As we all know, women in today's day and age need a different level of care. We invite you to join us as we explore the world of holistic care, what it means and how it can really benefit you.Alyssa Rabin We're going to be providing you with really insightful and practical information as to what our practitioners here at Maliya do, who they are, and how their specific modalities can support your well being.Lori Bean We're going to be having candid conversations with women of all ages, sharing their stories, their journeys, their struggles, and all of their relatable experiences.Alyssa Rabin Absolutely. As well, we're going to be informing you on how Western and Eastern medicine can really work together to help you to become and to show up in the world as the woman you are really meant to be. Alyssa Rabin  00:55Hello, everyone. Welcome to Maliya and The Holistic Shift. I'm Alyssa Rabin and today I have somebody here with me who is new to our clinic, and we are so excited to share her discipline, her strategies, her specialties. Her name is Suzanne Easton. Hi, Suzanne and Suzanne is a mental health therapist and Grief Recovery Method specialist. So we're gonna find out a little bit more about what that is. But yeah, Suzanne deals with grief. And she is incredible, and understanding and loving. And she is the person who should be doing this. So welcome, Suzanne. Suzanne Easton  01:47Thank you so much. Alyssa Rabin  01:48I'm so happy to have you here. Suzanne Easton  01:50It is so wonderful to be here talking with you. Alyssa Rabin  01:53Well, Suzanne, why don't you first tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into this? How did you get into the wellness health system? Suzanne Easton  02:02Okay, so I've been working as a mental health therapist since 2006. And have really loved my time doing that, as a generalist working with many different diagnoses and difficulties that people might encounter. About six years ago, though, I had two clients come in, in a short period of time, both who were dealing with grief. One, her husband had died the month before, and the other had a lifetime of losses. And I realized in that moment that I actually did not have good resources for grief, which sounds really funny considering the job that I had been doing for so long already. And in talking with the other mental health therapists that I work with realizing that actually most don't have good resources for grief, which again, is funny, right? Because that really plays into our emotional wellness. So grief, I in some ways I can understand because grief is not a pathology, it's a normal and natural reaction to loss. So I do in some ways understand why it hasn't been pathologized so much, and why there hasn't been a lot of focus put on supporting people as they walk through it. Yet, at the same time, almost all of my clients, I realized, were showing up with loss in their lives. And this was dramatically impacting the way that they could show up from both an emotional health perspective, mental health perspective, social health, all of these things. Anyways-- Alyssa Rabin  03:26-- now you also say loss, but you you associate grief with many different types of losses, not just loss of an individual or death. What are some other types of losses that you are talking about? Suzanne Easton  03:42Right. And that's such a beautiful distinction, because in our society, a lot of times when we're talking about loss, we immediately assume that it must be a death, maybe we'll include divorce in there, but not too much else. And loss really... well, it's a part of our life, from the time that we're born, right? We lose friendships, we move, our animals die, our parents might not be getting along very well. And so we might have some loss of safety and trust, it really can encompass so many different things. And at the Grief Recovery Institute, they talk about a backpack that we're given at the beginning of our lives. And since we're not really shown what to do with loss, we just start sticking them in this backpack. And these losses can be anywhere from pebble sized to the hugest of boulders or anything in between. And we get weighted down. And we haven't been told then what to do with this, in large part because we haven't been told how to recognize what loss is, right? Like it's just, like, oh, well, your friend didn't invite you to their birthday party here have a candy, right? It's just this idea of, like, we'll replace the feeling, not acknowledge what's actually happening inside. So we're taught from a very young age to not really acknowledge what loss is and we've not been given the tools to deal with it, which is of course understandable. Nobody's doing this with malice. They're simply passing along the tools that they have been given or not given in the same way that I did that with my kids until I learned the Grief Recovery Method. Alyssa Rabin  05:07Distract, distract, distract. Suzanne Easton  05:10Yeah, distract or comfort. It's like, oh, I love you and all of this stuff. And it's like, yes, those things are all true. All the lovely stuff is true. And, though, you need to acknowledge what actually happened. So it was in this group meeting where I was talking about these clients and another clinician I work with, she let me know about the Grief Recovery Method. And so I ordered the book and I did the program for myself first, because I wanted to know what it is I was suggesting for clients. And I often say that the term life changing gets overused. I really think yes, it does. You know, these tampons are like life changing. Alyssa Rabin  05:39Some are. Suzanne Easton  05:41You know what, you're right, that can be true. Okay, well, so, you know, in that vein, men, yes, it was honestly life changing for me. My mom used to say that I was an unending well of sorrow. And that didn't mean that I couldn't be happy. And it didn't mean that I didn't have joy in my life and beautiful things in my life. But there was loss and grief that was buried so deeply that no matter how much therapy I did, no matter how much self help I did, no matter what beautiful support systems I engaged with, I couldn't even really recognize the loss in order to bring it up and to then heal. Alyssa Rabin  06:18Interesting. It sort of overshadowed your whole being. Suzanne Easton  06:22It felt like it lived just deep in my gut, I guess my abdomen somewhere there. And it did not allow me to fully live, to fully be alive, to fully be me. And so it was always, like this dampening down, this dampening down of whatever it is I was thinking or feeling. Alyssa Rabin  06:39I think we can all sort of relate to that someway or another. Always something in the back of your mind that maybe is stopping you from doing something. Or hindering from you or second guessing yourself. That can come all from grief and loss and trauma. Suzanne Easton  06:55For me it certainly did. And my mum, so she used to say this about me, and - without her knowing that I had done the Grief Recovery Method - she said 'it's gone, isn't it'. She could see that that unending well of sorrow, it was just gone. And it was because I was able to access everything that had been weighing me down, and I was able to heal, which is such a beautiful, unique thing about this program. It's very specific, it's focused, you do it step by step by step by step by step, you start learning about grief, what it actually is, what is loss, how many different things that can encompass. And in some ways that could sound depressing. And it's really quite the opposite. Because it's so incredibly validating, like, oh, that's why I was out of energy at this point in my life, that was a loss. And it doesn't mean that you're stuck in this deep pit of grieving, you actually are being given tools to move in a beautiful, healthy, rejuvenating way through this loss. Alyssa Rabin  07:54So is this what the Grief Recovery Method is? Is it's a process or a path of moving through grief and recovery? So what, so what is it? Let's say I come to you and I say, 'Suzanne, I'm dealing with something from my past, there's big loss, what is the Grief Recovery Method?' Suzanne Easton  08:14Okay. So it would depend on whether you engaged in an individual format, or if you did the group. If you did individual, it would happen over seven sessions. If you do the group, it happens over eight. But the process is exactly the same. It's just broken up a little bit differently. And so at the beginning, we start looking at what is loss and grief, just really coming to a proper understanding of what that is, because again, most of us haven't been taught that. And then it's looking at some of the myths that we've learned about grief along the way, right? Like, oh, just keep busy. That's a big one in our society, right? Like, just keep busy. And there is something to be said, for all of the things that we do. The Grief Recovery Method isn't necessarily recommending that someone sit in their grief, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for weeks and weeks on end, right. At some point, you know, probably do get up, brush your teeth, go get yourself some food, you know, like all of these things. But we have really idolized this idea of being busy. And then we also too, we look at the of all we look at so many different ideas. And one of them though, is Academy Award recovery. And so we behave in a way that we think other people will respond positively to. So it's like, oh, look at her, her mum just died and she's back to work. And she's doing this and she's doing that and you would just never know. And it said with this air of positivity so a lot of us want to live up to that because we want other people to think well of us and not go oh, look at her, she's still sitting on the couch. Alyssa Rabin  09:37She's still suffering. Suzanne Easton  09:38Yeah, yeah, like look at her, you know, I can't talk to her without her crying. I don't think people are in any way intending to be unkind or uncaring or unsupportive in those things. I know for myself, it still can happen despite doing this work. And this is something I work on constantly and I'm getting better and better and better and better, right? But I can still have that moment of panic when I see someone's grief. Alyssa Rabin  09:58I'm like how do you deal with it? What do I say, what do I not say? What's proper, what's not proper? Suzanne Easton  10:03Exactly right? Because even like knowing this work and doing this work, there's definitely a chance I'm going to say the wrong thing. For sure there is. Number one, because I'm awkward. Alyssa Rabin  10:12I love you. Suzanne Easton  10:18And number two, because you cannot possibly know what this other person is feeling, right? Like, my mom has died. If I'm sitting with someone whose mom has died, I don't know exactly what that feels like for them. We had different relationships, different circumstances, different strengths and areas of loss within us when that loss occurred. There may have been very, very different losses in the relationship before the loss of death occurred, right? So, I can't sit there and say, I know what you're feeling. So I'm kind of making a bit of a stab at it. But we also too, in the program, give some ideas about things that you can say. And really, it's saying what you actually feel. And a lot of times what you actually feel is, I have no idea what to say right now, would you like a hug? Could I give you a hug? Right? Something along those lines. I mean, it really depends on the relationship, of course. And you know, talking about to this idea of right sized offers. If you're someone I know really well, and you've got little kids, and you've had a huge loss, hey, I can watch your kids. If we've just met, that would be weird. So then he might offer something else. But just knowing that we're going to make mistakes with this. And that's actually okay. Because the most important thing is that we open up the conversation, and not make people feel like they are alone. Alyssa Rabin  11:34And make them feel like we care. And we really do want to help even though we have no idea what we're doing. Suzanne Easton  11:39Exactly, and that we are not desperate for them to feel better. We just want to support them as they feel bad. Right? Because that's the other thing too, like oftentimes, in our desperation to make someone else feel better, we actually make them feel worse. Because then they feel like they have to do the Academy Award recovery for us so we can calm down. It becomes about us and about our feelings. Alyssa Rabin  12:02And them taking care of us. Suzanne Easton  12:03Exactly. And I'm not saying this with judgment towards anyone, because I would be judging myself just as much because I know I've done this. And I know, like, and we tend to be the worst in our closest relationships. So I still do this, right? Like, my husband will come home with something, I'll be like, just feel better. I don't want to have to worry. Alyssa Rabin  12:22I don't want to have to work on it with you right now. Suzanne Easton  12:26Exactly, right. Like, I don't know how to make this better. And because I care so much about you I'm panicking inside right now. So you please just pretend you're okay, right now. Alyssa Rabin  12:35Yeah. Hilarious. Oh, my gosh. Suzanne Easton  12:37So this is where we start to see that grief really does come in and impact every part of our life - loss and grief, loss and grief, loss and grief, loss and grief. And it's so empowering, though, once you have these tools, because it makes it so much easier to deal with. And not naming it, not dealing with it, doesn't make it go away. If it did, I would wholeheartedly recommend that, wholeheartedly. But since it doesn't, it's just so much easier to actually just learn this process, so that you can know how to deal with it when it does happen. And it actually also helps you to make it less likely that you will encounter unresolved grief in your life, in the sense that you learn how to keep your relationships more complete. So small examples would be, I've told you some of the things that I think about you, right? I'm realizing in sitting with you right now that if somehow I weren't to see you again, there will be some other things that I wanted to pass along, right? Like other things that I admire about you, other things that I've really appreciated about the time that I've known you, the way that I see you work, the way that you are with me. And so I would be incomplete with you. Alyssa Rabin  13:41So if there was a grief or a loss, everything that has wanted to be said to the person or portrayed or whatever is already out there. So there's not that portion of grief that moves on. Suzanne Easton  13:58Exactly, because our grief, like-- Alyssa Rabin  14:00-- if you guys could see Suzanne right now, she's got her fists balled up. And she's, like, shaking them like a little child, you should see. She is so passionate about this program and believes absolutely everybody on the planet should do it, as do I totally and completely agree. But she's just, I think because it has helped her in her life. So drastically. There's so much empowerment through this program. Suzanne Easton  14:29Yeah, there's absolute passion. Because like I say, I had done tons of therapy, tons of self help stuff, great friends, great groups, great everything. And it was amazing. And I'm so grateful I had those things. And this is what actually allowed me to start living. I recognize that not everyone is going to have the same experience that I have, right, because not everyone has the same backstory, not everyone who, you know, comes into this process in the same place, and yet I watched client after client after client do this process. And I see huge meaning coming out of it for almost all of them. And the ones who I don't see huge meaning coming out, it's something else is going on for them that they're not fully able to drop into this and engage with this. Because it is a process, you learn different things along the way, the first half of the program, we're looking more at both those general ideas about grief and about society and about how we've been taught to deal with it. And then in the middle of it, we actually look at all of the losses that you've experienced throughout your lifetime. And it's done in a very safe way, you can share as much or as little as you want to, whether you're in an individual session or in a group, it can be something like, well, in 1980, something happened that was really hard. Alyssa Rabin  15:33So you don't have to, go through it more or less again. Suzanne Easton  15:38You don't. And, though, then we start to break it down and get specific. And so at the end of the sessions, you will have fully completed one loss and then you know the tool so you can complete any other loss that you want to. Alyssa Rabin  15:50Oh, okay. Suzanne Easton  15:51Yeah, so you carry this with you for ever. So the psychologist who trained me, she said that the majority of her clients after doing this process, they don't need to see her any longer. And that has held true in my practice as well, because you carry this with you, and you can use it anytime. And all you need is someone who is a safe listener. And so we talk about what that is, and there's listening instructions. And it's easy peasy, right? Like I've got a few different listeners for myself. Alyssa Rabin  16:15Wow. Okay, so let's say I come to you and I have quite a few griefs, losses, anything in my past. So I would specifically focus on just one for this session? Suzanne Easton  16:29Yeah. And so most people come into this with an idea of what it is that they want to focus on, right, something recent that has occurred or something that's been plaguing them for a really long time and is very forefront in their mind. And I would say probably more than half of people don't end up working initially on the thing that they came in with, because they realized that there are losses that are much more foundational to what it is that they are experiencing. Alyssa Rabin  16:52Wow. And then after they complete the seven or eight week session, you're literally done the session and you can take the knowledge and move on and do it to yourself for all other losses and griefs. Suzanne Easton  17:08Absolutely 100%. And a lot of times people in the groups, too, they'll connect with each other and be each other's listeners along the way. And just this idea of the foundational losses, when you go back at your loss recovery, or your Oh, I've lost my words here. Okay, well, anyways, your loss history graph, that's what I'm looking for. When you go back and look at that, you'll have quite a number of entries on it. But most people don't need to fully address each one of those things, you address the foundational ones. And that's where the patterns and the themes started. And then those patterns and themes, once they've been addressed in the earlier loss, they actually tends to experience that healing in the further we are, in the later relationships as well, that carry those same themes. So for example, someone might come in because they're having difficulty with their spouse, their partner, and what they will probably end up working on first is relationship with one of their parents, ultimately, probably both. And there, you're going to see how you watched patterns emerge about relationships between your parents, also in your interactions with them, how you started to have beliefs about yourself and your own worth in relationships. And once you've done so much of that healing work, there is even the possibility that you may not even need to do the specific work on the later relationships. Again, it can sound overwhelming when we start talking about like, oh, my goodness, if we're looking at almost everything as being a loss, am I going to have to be doing very specific work about every aspect of my life? Alyssa Rabin  18:28Because I'm thinking and I've got lists and lists and lists. Suzanne Easton  18:31Yes, absolutely. And no, you won't have to. And like I'm a massive enthusiast about this. And I still, I've probably completed myself less than 15 losses, and most people won't do that many. I'm just, I'm particularly passionate. And I carried unresolved grief with me for so long, that I don't have a tolerance for carrying it any longer. So the moment I experience a loss... two years ago, my cat and my dog died, I did the work immediately. And this doesn't mean that I don't miss them. And it doesn't mean that I didn't cry. And it doesn't mean that I don't grieve. What it means is for me, I don't have the unresolved pain, which in my case feels like someone is taking claws and physically shredding my heart. That's what unresolved grief to me feels like Yes. And I don't have to feel that anymore. Because I live with that on a chronic basis for so many years. I just have no tolerance for it anymore. Knowing that I don't have to have it. Alyssa Rabin  19:31Knowing that you don't have to feel that way and knowing that you have the tools to be able to counter it. And like you said, you're still going to grieve, and you're still going to be saddened by it. You're still going to, but it's going to be  on a whole other level. Suzanne Easton  19:45It is. So when my dog Miko died, I still sat on the couch for five days afterwards with my son, and we talked about Miko and we cried and then we'd watch movies, because you mean you can't talk and cry all day long. Or at least I can't, right? You talk and you cry again. Right? We grieve, you know actually I love this word, we should include it, we mourned him. And mourning can be this beautiful heart filling warm experience, right? It's the acknowledgement of how much this meant to you. I did this work in regards to the relationship with my mom two years before she died. And number one, it made the relationship with her a million times better for the two years. I mean, it was good before, but it made it way better. And then when she died, and the people from the funeral home came to take her, I was on the ground, sobbing, for sure. Right. And, though, my heart didn't feel like it was being shredded apart, it never, it felt so huge and warm and full, rather than barren and empty, and you know, dry and being shredded and all of these things. And the only time I have felt that ripping sensation in regards to my mom's death, was a few weeks after she had died I was talking to someone and I realized something, a small thing, I was incomplete about. And I start to feel that pain. I was like, oh, no, no. And so I immediately did the completion work right then and there. Alyssa Rabin  21:07You are so funny, but it helped, right? Suzanne Easton  21:10It's just again, for me, it's life changing, to not have to live with that pain. And I didn't, I used to think that grief and loss were the most horrible, awful things. And now they just they don't have the same feeling. I still don't wish for them. But I can put myself now in positions where I know I'm going to encounter it, I can tolerate it. So my cat and my dog died two years ago. And before that, given the number of losses I've had and everything, I don't think I would have ever gotten another dog again. And we now have two new dogs. And it's because I know I can face the loss. I know, you know, I know the loss is going to come someday. And I know I can deal with it. Whereas before I just, I was saturated. My backpack was so full. And we get to that point where a backpack, I mean, I'm very middle aged, right? And by this point in my life, my backpack was incredibly full. Some people's fill up really, really early. Some, they've got a bit of wiggle room left when they're 80. I certainly wouldn't have, like mine was topped up. I had no room left to add any more life experiences in just in case I lost them. And so you start living really - well, I start and I see this happening - that some people start living really, really small. Alyssa Rabin  22:24Yes, yes. Because there's always - I was going to say - there's always that fear of loss of something, or someone, or failure, or all of these different words which holds you back. Which deters you from going forward and being who you're truly needing to be, wanting to be. So this program also helps you recognize that you can get through grief. And if you make a mistake, and something happens, it's okay, you're gonna move on. Suzanne Easton  22:58Yeah, you are going to continue to be alive, and you may very well be changed, right? Our losses often change us. And again, it doesn't mean that you will never be sad, but you will just be sad. You will, you will just be sad, you will be not destroyed, not being ripped apart. Alyssa Rabin  23:17Yes. Oh, my gosh, amazing. So what is the difference between a one on one and group session? Like, how would you know which one to choose? Suzanne Easton  23:30Right. So I mean, there are definite benefits to both. The Grief Recovery Institute typically recommends that if you are able, that you do group sessions. There is something incredible about being held in a group, and about seeing very firsthand that we don't need to compare losses, because that's another huge thing in our society. It's like, well, I can't talk about my dog dying, because your mom just died. So I can't say anything about that. Well, we learn here that that's not true at all, right, our losses are not meant to compete with each other in any way. And we start to have a lot of capacity for acknowledging our own loss then, and also acknowledging the loss that other people are experiencing. And so the groups are amazing for that. It's also too, just a sense of camaraderie and bonding, and also real world practice of talking about your losses with other people. Because a lot of times, we really haven't learned how to do that. So, so many beautiful things that come out of it, including, you know, the opportunity to stay connected later on if you want to. With the individual groups, the primary benefit of that is that in working with me, I am good at being very curious about your life, you certainly don't have to say anything that you don't want to, but I can help you to uncover some themes and patterns that you might not have noticed on your own, which allows you to go deeper into the work than you might have otherwise. And that's the one real benefit I found of the individual work. So overall, I would still definitely recommend the groups if you can and if you have the capacity for that. Some people, though, the idea of a group is just so terrifying that they're not able to bring that onto their plate. And that's okay, too. Alyssa Rabin  25:09Could they potentially do an individual session with you? And then do a group session or switch halfway through? Or isn't generally where you start is what you do? Suzanne Easton  25:21Okay, so the first two sessions, new people can enter after that, it becomes a closed group, so that you have the safety, right? Because it's amazing how quickly we drop into intimacy with people. All the people I've had who come into groups they're like, I'm like, I'm not really a group person, I'm not sure about this. Oh, my goodness, it doesn't take very long before they have dropped right in. And it doesn't mean that they are necessarily sharing every detail of their lives. But they recognize that they are in a place where they are being seen, they are being heard, they can say anything that they need to say... Alyssa Rabin  25:52People are holding space for them. Suzanne Easton  25:53 Very much so, right? And so it's pretty amazing watching people who are not group people really value this process and sink into it. Alyssa Rabin  26:03Oh my gosh, amazing. So who would come to see you for this? Suzanne Easton  26:07So anyone 18 years or older, can do this work. The Grief Recovery Institute does not suggest typically doing this work with people under the age of 18. For a number of reasons, one of them being is that they are so highly influenced by the adults around them that it's really hard to help make meaningful shifts for them in an external environment, when that's not being supported in their primary environment. So what they then suggest offering is groups for caregivers, right. So you offer the group, and that's a four session one, it's called When Children Grieve. And it's for people who are involved in children's lives so that they can better support the kids that are actually in their lives. Alyssa Rabin  26:49Would it be the caregivers who are more or less doing the sessions with the children, once they learn it? Suzanne Easton  26:55Kind of, sort of, it's more just becomes a lived thing, right? So the caregivers come - and so the caregivers can be the parents, it can be other family members, it can be school teachers, anyone who is intimately involved in kids' lives on an ongoing basis, right? So for me to do work with a kid wouldn't be very helpful to that kid, because I'm not involved with them in an ongoing basis. It doesn't have to be the parents, it can be school teachers, anyone who's intimately involved in an ongoing basis. And often. And so they come, they learn how to do this, as a part of that they start to learn some of the things about their own losses and about how to approach grief in their own lives. And then they're able to pass that along to the kids that they work with. Alyssa Rabin  27:34Oh my gosh. Suzanne Easton  27:36And so I mean, I would wish this for every kid, I wish for them to be exposed to this through the adults in their lives. And then I would love the moment everyone turns 18 that they come, they do this process. And they then, they get to live their lives so much more freely. Alyssa Rabin  27:51Not living in fear of what if? Suzanne Easton  27:56Yeah. And because the what if is all, I mean, not not all the ones we imagine, but there's something's always coming. There just, there always is. I mean, we do go through these lovely kind of calm periods of our lives sometimes. And then a whole bunch of losses seem to rush in all at once. And you're being lambasted by this. And so another thing too, is, grief is not, it's not an appealing subject. So typically, people come to see me when every other resource has been exhausted. And they are, they're on their knees. It just feels that terrible and that bad. And I understand that makes all kinds of sense. And if you can find it in yourself to do this work before you're in that place, in one of those lull times, that's the ideal time. Because then the next time something huge comes, you just have the tools ready to go. Alyssa Rabin  28:46Oh my gosh, this is so amazing. So everyone, it's called the Grief Recovery Method by Suzanne Easton here at Maliya. Thank you so much for talking about this. Oh, it's so easy talking with you. Suzanne Easton  29:04Thank you for being my listener today. I could talk about this like, my hands just start going. If anyone wants to come and talk to me about this, I will... yeah, I will have so much to say and so much capacity for listening. Alyssa Rabin  29:21And if you want to just even do a 15/20 minute come in and meet Suzanne and see how she can help you if this is right up your your alley. Definitely. Suzanne Easton  29:31Yeah. And I can give you all the options for doing this and just see if any of them are a good fit for you. Yeah, yeah. Alyssa Rabin  29:36Great. Thanks so much. Suzanne Easton  29:37Thank you so much.

Lori Bean welcomes Registered Psychologist Erin Bonner back to the show to discuss trauma, how it can present, and the different modalities of support that can assist trauma sufferers in finding peace and wellness. Erin Bonner counts working through trauma as one of her specialities and she is not hesitant to share her own personal experience with PTSD to help illustrate how healing is possible. Erin and Lori examine how working through trauma does involve sitting with unpleasant and traumatizing emotions, but Erin also shares how different therapies can help clients with emotional tools and resilience before they embark on, perhaps, work in Prolonged Exposure, EMDR, or ​​Dialectical Behavior Therapy modalities. Lori and Erin's message is one of hope in connecting with the wisdom of the right therapist that can guide you through trauma healing.About Erin Bonner:Erin Bonner is a Registered Psychologist with a Master's of Arts in Counselling Psychology. She is passionate about her role in helping others navigate their individual paths towards wellness. In her 20s she tragically lost her younger brother and then her mother shortly after. Through her own therapeutic journey, she discovered her calling to help others work on understanding and processing emotions to achieve personal growth and well-being.Erin is trained in Cognitive and Dialectical Behavioural Therapies, Prolonged Exposure, Exposure with Response Prevention, Emotion-Focused and Mindfulness-Based Therapy. She specializes in treating depression, anxiety, PTSD, cPTSD, ADHD, emotion dysregulation, grief, OCD, and in helping individuals learn to love themselves and develop strong relationships with the people in their lives. She also offers Sport Psychology to equestrian athletes on an individual or group basis.In addition to working with adults, she has a special interest, passion and gift for working with adolescents aged 14 and older.— Maliya: website | instagram | facebookErin Bonner | Registered Psychologist: website | linkedin TranscriptionLori Bean As we all know, women in today's day and age need a different level of care. We invite you to join us as we explore the world of holistic care, what it means and how it can really benefit you.Alyssa Rabin We're going to be providing you with really insightful and practical information as to what our practitioners here at Maliya do, who they are, and how their specific modalities can support your well being.Lori Bean We're going to be having candid conversations with women of all ages, sharing their stories, their journeys, their struggles, and all of their relatable experiences.Alyssa Rabin Absolutely. As well, we're going to be informing you on how Western and Eastern medicine can really work together to help you to become and to show up in the world as the woman you are really meant to be. Lori Bean  00:55Welcome to today's podcast. My name is Lori Bean. And we are here today. Joining us again, Erin Bonner, registered psychologist here at Maliya. Hi, Erin. Erin Bonner  01:08Hello. Lori Bean  01:10Welcome back! Erin Bonner  01:11I'm so excited to do another one of these. Lori Bean  01:13So fun. So fun. And I think we decided today that what we're seeing a lot here at Maliya is a lot of people coming in with trauma. And I think Erin is the perfect person to dive into this a little more deeply. So we're gonna discuss, I guess, the intersection of trauma and wisdom. So welcome, Erin. What does this mean to you? Erin Bonner  01:39So I agree, we see so many different types of trauma and I, in my therapy, use the word trauma really liberally. And I usually give a disclaimer to all of my clients that this is a word that I bring up. And I really try and normalize because trauma is an experience that doesn't have to make sense. It's not you were in a car accident therefore you have trauma, you were assaulted therefore you have trauma. It can happen in such small moments in ways that lots of the world invalidates. And so the way that we're seeing trauma show up here, at Maliya, and in my own practice, is pretty vast. And so a lot of the work that I do, because trauma is one of my specialties, PTSD in particular, complex PTSD, which is kind of a new age term, it's not technically a diagnosis, and it fits for a lot of people. There's this desire, this hoping that healing trauma will, you know, make us know everything or really help us understand ourselves and the world. And I think there's kind of this, this concept of, if you have trauma, therefore you will be wise. And I think it's more than that. And I think that pairing can actually just invalidate the experience of trauma a little bit, it devalues. Erin Bonner  01:40Oh are you speaking to like - oh, that's interesting that you say that - you know, the narrative that everything happens to you for a reason, and you've had this experience that changed your whole life? And so you bring that into the world, and you're going to be wiser, more profound, more.... is that kind of what you're referring to? Erin Bonner  03:10Absolutely, absolutely. I think there's this, this pairing that our world has of, you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And in a sense, that can be true. And at the same time, it's perfectly reasonable to wish that whatever terrible thing happened in your life didn't happen. I wish we could cultivate the same knowing, the same awareness, without having, you know, the crap happen. Lori Bean  03:31Yeah. So the expectation you think people are having is they come in, they see you to kind of resolve this trauma that's sort of holding on to them and affecting their lives at present. But if we resolve it, I'm gonna emerge as this like incredible functioning human being. And you're saying that's not necessarily true. Erin Bonner  03:50It's true and it's not true. I think that, you know, healing trauma, and no matter what type of trauma it is, what's happened has happened in our lives. I wish I had a magic wand where I could go alright, and memory gone. And I don't. And I think where the misunderstanding about treating trauma, whether it's physical trauma or emotional trauma or cognitive trauma, kind of wherever it sits for us as an individual, there's this, I just wanted to be gone. I wanted it to be wiped from my memory, I want to be able to move forward and be completely untethered to the stuff that's happened in my life in previous moments. And I think that's unrealistic, and not in a Debbie Downer kind of way. It's, I think, an important part of our individual histories to go, okay, things have happened in my life. And it's up to me to figure out, well, what do I do with that? And I think that's where this idea of wisdom can kind of fold itself in in a helpful way. Lori Bean  04:45You know, I often think about, you know, some people have had really what I would discern as horrible trauma, they end up functioning really well in the world. And then there's some people who I would say, they're traumatized by an experience, but I personally, maybe judgmentally, would say well that wasn't such a big deal. And they're not functioning at all. So the fact that if you've gone through trauma, you should be wiser... why do some people flourish and others don't? Erin Bonner  05:16As I said in the previous podcast - I'm a little bit of a nerd and I really like to dig into the science piece, the biology piece - and science and research really doesn't know all of those answers, which, you know, for somebody who likes to know what's going on - me - that's kind of been a big pill to swallow. That there isn't a ton of research that tells us why one person is traumatized by something and the next person isn't. And I think it really comes down to sometimes our brain heals itself. And sometimes it doesn't. Lori Bean  05:46Is there a piece around, you know, if you're more nurtured when you were younger, and you have a better sense of safety, and I read something that up until the age of six, there's an imprint? And what about that piece? Erin Bonner  05:59I think it plays a role. And at the same time, I know I was diagnosed with PTSD in my early mid 20s. And I had a wonderful upbringing, emotionally supported, validated. My parents were kind and compassionate human beings, and really, you know, did everything from my perspective and the way, they couldn't, they couldn't have done a better job. And so, yes and no, as I speak from my own experience in that, and I think there is something to be said about those formative years, you know, if we're growing up with childhood trauma, the likelihood that our brain is going to be impacted is absolute. Lori Bean  06:33And so how do you navigate that expectation? So they come to see you, and you're going to work with them on this trauma, and maybe the outcome isn't going to be what they expect. Because I think people, some people have gone for 20 years to therapy, and they're still in the same place, and they're not getting through it, they're being supported, nothing's changing, or they're reverting back to old habits, or-- Erin Bonner  06:58I have lots of clients that have had very similar experiences to what you describe. And a big part of the way I practice - and this is where, like, I get into the nitty gritty of ethics - I don't guarantee outcomes, I really make that clear. And I start off any sort of treatment, if we're kind of going into, you know, PTSD treatment, or we're going into an empirically supported treatment with knowledge about the treatment itself, you know. Here's the research, here are the stats, this is how this therapy is going to unfold. And I make that really, really clear before we jump in, because we have to be in an effective place for trauma work to be effective. There's so many variables that make treatment effective or not. And it's not just, you know, I want it to work. And so that's just one kind of aspect that I really, I really hone in on because a) I have to have the person you know, ready and willing to do the work. And I often will say like sorry/not sorry, like, this is gonna be unpleasant in moments. We're gonna sit in some really big unpleasant, traumatizing emotions, traumatizing in your history. So your brain can habituate and process and heal itself, the brain is an amazing, powerful tool that has the capacity to heal itself when we set it up in the way that it needs. And that's where each person might be different, where one style of trauma treatment might work beautifully for one person, and absolutely does not work for the other person. Lori Bean  08:24And do you kind of navigate that as you go along? Erin Bonner  08:26Absolutely. I think in the world of mental health, there's a little bit of... actually a lot a bit of trial and error, you know, with meds, with therapy styles, with therapists even. That, you know, finding that perfect storm in a nice way match in terms of you know, you find the therapist you jive with, you find the modality that fits for you as a human, and it's that, you know, moment in your life where brain is ready and open to do that type of work. It is a bit of a trial and error game sometimes. And so I know in my history as a therapist, and in the type of treatment that I do for PTSD is called prolonged exposure, which involves revisiting a memory repeatedly and recording it. And so having this exposure and what we're looking for is flooding of emotions. We want the intense ones to show up in the room, we want to put your brain in that emotional state that you might have been in that moment where the trauma was occurring. So some of the theory behind why flooding is an effective treatment for trauma is that the trauma response ends up kind of remaining and lingering and being unhealed by our brain's capability of healing itself. It often comes about after emotional processing is blocked. So what I mean by that is if you were to have an emotion, say something jumps out of the wall here and scares so we both feel some fear, there's like a wave of an emotion. If you were to be hooked up to a brain scan, it would look like a wave on the screen. And so the theory is that if something interrupts that wave, so maybe more trauma, maybe brain shuts itself down, maybe it kicks into fight or flight as a way to, you know, survive that moment... our brain isn't able to finish that. You can't see me but I'm like doing this wave motion in the air in front of myself here... that the theory is that, you know, lingering trauma, PTSD, trauma that does not heal itself, it's a product of something interrupting, or maybe your brain dissociates. You know, dissociation is a built in, you know, safety mechanism that every human brain has when we're in the worst moments of our life. We kind of hope that it trips the switch and blunts, you know, our sensory and emotional awareness temporarily as a way to survive that moment. And so if that happens, our brain can't actually process because it changes where our brain is functioning. Lori Bean  10:39So is that why this whole thing like this whole Gabor Mate movement where emotions are stored in the body and illness and all these things, so you block the process of processing the trauma, and then it starts manifesting in the body. Like are people presenting often with physical illness, that kind of thing? Erin Bonner  10:59They can. And this is, again, where there are so many different presentations of trauma. And it's cool that, you know, talking to the other practitioners here, like figuring out where all of our different types of treatment fit, because for one person, it might show up in physical ailment. I know for me, I developed an autoimmune disease after my experience of PTSD. It also came with some pretty intense emotional symptoms and some really, really nasty nightmares for a long time. And that's where it kind of manifested in me and so I had to go this whole kind of natural health route to figure out how do I fully heal myself, you know, with the help of professionals that I worked with over the years. And for another person, it might purely be mental, emotional, behavioral. And so it doesn't necessarily have to look one for one for it to be called the same thing, which is PTSD or sub-threshold PTSD, and whether it's diagnoseable or not. Lori Bean  11:51Interesting. So a ton of people that I know have developed autoimmune diseases after whatever their trauma was, whatever their interpretation of the trauma was, for them. Yeah, that's kind of fascinating. So let's say you have had trauma that's unresolved. But you kind of look at it like, 'Oh, that wasn't a big deal'. But somehow you're not functioning in the world, you're sick, you're whatever. How do you know, in your own physicalness, that what you're experiencing physically is actually a trauma response? Erin Bonner  12:30That's a good question. I think that's where - I mean, we're talking about this idea of wisdom today - I think there's a piece where we can trust our wisdom a little bit in the type of therapy and the theory that I really pull from, it's called dialectical behavior therapy, there's a concept called the wise mind. And it's this idea that every single person has this well within, this inner wisdom, that we might just not know how to tap or may not have access yet. We all have it. And so often, we teach it, and we talk about this, like, sense of knowing. And so I think that's a piece where if you're going through life, and something has happened, and we're doing this, you know, self invalidation thing of like, 'Oh, it's not a big deal, I'm fine. I don't need help. I can, you know, tough it out.' Whether we're doing that to ourselves, or the world around us is doing that to us, having that, like, lingering feeling, that sense of knowing of like, something's not right. I mean, that might be a great time to, you know, talk to somebody. Talk to your doctor, go see a therapist. Lori Bean  13:24I believe, personally, that when one ailment shows up, and then another ailment shows up, and you're seeing your doctor 7000 times, and nothing's getting better, there's pieces that are missing, there's some trauma work that really needs to happen. I think, I think that's a huge sign. And it's so interesting to me, like I think about people that keep going to doctor and doctor and they're getting drugs, and really they're putting band aids on the issue. But what is a little deeper than that? And I think we invalidate our traumas, like, oh it was just a breakup. Oh, my kids just left home, or - because we're all going through the same experiences, so it didn't affect Sally when her kids left, but I'm a mess. So it can't be that that's causing me to be unwell mentally, physically, emotionally, whatever, like, all of them are fine. My group of friends are fine, and I'm falling apart. I think we need to really respect our feelings, which we don't do. Erin Bonner  13:25I agree. Lori Bean  13:25And have compassion for ourselves that means it's time to reach out. If you can't resolve emotional issues, and they can be as simple as your hamster died. Erin Bonner  14:39Absolutely. Lori Bean  14:40I mean, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that, because I've sort of been around this experience where it became a suicidal experience because this gentleman's hamster died. I didn't understand it, but now that I understand trauma, everything affects everybody differently and we really need to respect what feelings and emotions we're having, and what we're holding on to, and get support other than putting a bandaid on it. I just think we don't do that for ourselves. Lori Bean  15:09A lot of that should be done simultaneously. Like I think about our guts, right? Often our gut, what is it our second brain, whatever, so a lot of our emotion gets held in the gut. So you're not feeling well, whatever, you go and you get gut support. But what about if, at the same time, you're healing your gut, and you're getting emotional support, because you probably couldn't sit through a talk therapy session if your gut is a disaster. We forget to look at the body as a whole, there's so many pieces to us. And you're right. Like, especially, I mean, if your anxiety is through the roof, you can't even sit and talk to somebody, if you need meds for that, wow. Imagine if you get meds for support. And then you can actually sit through some therapy and get support. Erin Bonner  15:09I agree. And I mean, this is the piece where people will ask me, you know, as a psychologist, 'Well Erin, what do you think? Is it all about talk therapy or is all about meds?' And I firmly believe both. That sometimes those band aids are absolutely necessary to, like, stop the blood flow. You know, for a lack of a different metaphor in this moment. Sometimes we need that medication to help us get to the place where we can do some of the work. And that work, I totally agree, you know, sitting in a therapy room with a therapist who's trained in in modalities that fit for you that can treat trauma, I think is essential. That we don't, you know, learn how to be different unless we do the therapy work. We might feel different because of those meds, and then we get dependent on those meds. And so figuring out how we can kind of integrate this both thing, I think, is really, really important. Erin Bonner  16:36And I've worked with people that that has been the case, that there was no way they could have sat in a therapy room without doing, you know, some sort of medical intervention, medication and/or other therapy leading up to trauma work that, you know, one of my specialties is I treat trauma. It's one of my specialties. I also work with a lot of very emotionally sensitive humans. And that's a term that a client once said to me, 'Erin, I'm taking the term emotionally sensitive back' and I loved how she said that, because it's this idea that, you know, if we're emotionally sensitive, it's a bad thing. And I think it's not, I think it's a fantastic, amazing superpower. Yet, we're never told how to harness it. And so if you were an emotionally sensitive human, you might have to do a whole bunch of work before you can actually heal trauma. You might-- Lori Bean  17:14Wait, what is that? Erin Bonner  17:15So this is where DBT - dialectical behavior therapy - plays a really, really big role for lots of people. I will kind of preface this as I'm going in with a new client, if they're kind of presenting or they're talking in that first session about emotional sensitivity, I'm a firm believer that we have to have tools in our back pocket, coping strategies, emotion regulation strategies, tools that can help us sit with emotion. If we don't have that, trauma work actually isn't going to be helpful. Lori Bean  17:39Because you become super dysregulated. Erin Bonner  17:40Exactly. It might actually just be re-traumatizing. I know, you and I've talked about, you know, EMDR and hypnotherapy, which they work for a lot of people. And then there's other people where it ends up just being re-traumatizing. Lori Bean  17:53Because they don't have the initial coping skills? Erin Bonner  17:56Absolutely. Or their brain is one of these emotionally sensitive type brains where, you know, doing that bilateral stimulation, or going into that trance state, actually just activates, you know, fight-flight-freeze, that trauma response. Lori Bean  18:05So that's funny you say that. So I had an EMDR session once. And that's exactly how I felt. I actually wasn't prepared for it. This was my second counseling session. And we did EMDR and I'm like, I am not... I became this weird, bitchy person. Like, I knew that this fear was coming. I was not ready for that. And so you're right. Like, we need tools before we do some of that. Erin Bonner  18:30Yeah. And I think that's a, you know, part of my job as a professional to, like, kindly disappoint clients who are like jumping in my room. And they're like, alright, let's do it. I want to jump in tomorrow. Let's do the trauma treatment. And I have to go whoa, whoa, whoa. It's my job to assess that you're in a place where that's going to be helpful, because, you know, it feels counterintuitive to go to therapy to get traumatized. You know, just my opinion. And it's a really big part of us as therapists, and us as clinicians, learning how to do kind of assessment for the treatments that we offer. We got to know that this person has the capability to sit in big emotions, because really, regardless of the modality, sort of, there's gonna be some component that we're sitting in emotion. You know, if it's P E, we're revisiting this memory over and over, and we're flooding the brain with with emotions. Lori Bean  19:19What's PE? Erin Bonner  19:20Prolonged exposure, that's the form of treatment that I do, or EMDR. For doing this bilateral stimulation, which I don't do EMDR I'm not trained in that. What comes up are big emotions, our brain unlocks, emotions are tough. And I know for me, I treated my PTSD with EMDR with a therapist who was trained, a really great therapist. And the experience that I have, I'm an emotionally sensitive human, and my bread and butter is, you know, coping skills and emotions. And so I live and breathe these coping skills. And so, I know for me, in hindsight, if I didn't have all of those tools to sit with an emotion, I don't think it would have been successful. Because the emotional wave was fast and intense for me. And so figuring out how to sit with an emotion is a really big kind of part of that orientation. And that's where sometimes we jump the gun because, you know, as clinicians and I have this too that, like, I want to help. I want to get in there, I see your suffering, I see your pain, and I want to, you know, help you stitch those pieces back together. And so we can get kind of like, excited, as therapists. And we go, oh, this is going to work with this modality and like, let's do the thing. I think sometimes we can accidentally kind of jump ahead of what's helpful, which, I mean, talking about this wisdom thing, that's where wisdom has to be part of the room on the therapist side as well. It's not just, you know, by the book clinical, sometimes we gotta do a little adaptation depending on who's sitting with us in the room. Lori Bean  20:40So I find it interesting, like even the whole topic of trauma and wisdom. But I see a lot of people that live their lives, unwell. Like mentally unwell, physically unwell. So are they just not connected to the wisdom? And how do you wake up out of that? So you go, 'Whoa, I need some help, I need...' Because there's a lot of that, you get kind of caught up in your story, but you're not really getting the help you need. Actually, now that I think about that, I think I might even have a little bit of an answer, because we have a lot of people that come here who are unwell. And I think you do need somebody objective looking in on the situation. And I think, actually, I just answered my own question. We have a wellness specialist here at Maliya. And so if you are experiencing all these different things, she's really good at looking at what is going on and feeling into what type of support you may need. And then, like, she'll reach out to somebody like Erin and say, this, to me, sounds like big trauma. Are you a fit for this? And Erin might say, yeah, or might say, no. Maybe there's another therapist that might be better. Maybe it's as simple as a massage. Someone touching the body, someone meeting them where they're at before we dive into that, but I really think when we're dysregulated in any capacity, sick, no energy, chronic pain, chronic fatigue, we just need that person to give us some space, hold some safety and listen, and then we can invite in the right people. Because I think we don't know, like a lot of the time. You know, I've had some major trauma that happened many, many years ago. And it's just kind of hitting me more now. I think I've been fortunate to be able to navigate it. But I don't think I realized how much it impacted me till 20 years later. Erin Bonner  22:38Yeah, absolutely. Lori Bean  22:39We don't know what we don't know. Erin Bonner  22:40Absolutely. Well I think, I think kind of separating this concept between functional and well, I think is a really big one. That like, we can be super functional and have unhealed trauma. And so there's a difference. There's a difference between like being able to go through emotions and do the thing that we call, you know, having a job and a family or a relationship. And that's where that piece of wisdom really comes in. If I'm not in wellness, I'm not in contentment. And that's something I really like to, I don't know, educate on the goal isn't happiness. Happiness is an emotion that comes and goes, just like fear and anger and sadness and shame, and all these other emotions. The goal is to live content. I want like a pretty decent baseline that I can go up and down from. Lori Bean  23:18Yeah, but you're not running in fight or flight. Erin Bonner  23:20Absolutely. I even joke about shame. Lots of my clients will, their lives will be dictated by shame when they first show up in therapy. And so we'll make the joke and not a joke along the way somewhere. You know, we don't actually want to get rid of shame. Shame is pretty helpful. Have you ever had like an accountability buddy for going to the gym? You know, I'm telling my friend in Vancouver, oh, I'm going to work out tonight. Yeah, and she goes me too. Okay, great. Yeah. And then tonight comes and I'm like, I don't really want to. Let me tell you how helpful shame is in that moment that I go if I don't work out I have to tell her that I didn't work out. And I'm gonna feel really icky about myself. Shame can be really helpful to help us, you know, be motivated to do the things that we don't necessarily want to do yet we know we probably could, or we would benefit from. And so having this experience of, you know, accessing wisdom, a lot of people don't know how to access it. And so figuring out, you know, this piece of, if I'm not in that contentment maybe there's something more I can do. Lori Bean  24:16Okay, it's so fascinating because... so I've always said, but I'm functioning. I always use that phrase. I've been functioning for 20 years, I'm functioning and functioning and functioning. So I'm turning 51, I just had all my bloodwork done for perimenopause/menopause through the naturopath here, and I discovered that my cortisol levels are one of the highest levels they've ever seen. And my progesterone was super low. That was the point where I learned, okay, I haven't dealt with my shit. Because I shouldn't be running in fight or flight. I'm very functional. I function at a level that is like a little very extreme. Erin Bonner  24:56Let me ask you, how are you at relaxing? Lori Bean  24:58Yeah, shut up Erin. Exactly! So like you talked earlier about that kind of balance. I don't have that. So I kind of have known that I didn't have, I've known that for 20 years. But when I actually took the test, I don't know there was something about seeing it on paper. That, yeah, Lori, you've been functioning in fight or flight, your cortisol is through the roof. I always kind of knew that. But it was like I needed to see it to make a shift. Erin Bonner  25:02Absolutely. And I think I normalizing that experience, I think, is really, really powerful. That, you know, we live in this world where, you know, a broken leg gets treated different than a panic attack. And so I think really as people who are trying to cultivate wellness, whatever that looks like for us, having that, you know, test on a piece of paper. It's really normal to go 'oh, now I'll do it'. Oh, now I see, oh, oh, I feel better about the work that I'm doing. Because, you know, there's this medical piece of paper that's actually backing me up, or a diagnosis that a doctor has said, is backing me up. I think that's a really, really, really, really normal experience. Because, you know, the whole world of mental health has evolved and shifted, and it's getting way more press, I guess you could say, and we're still in this place where like, 'Oh, you're not coming to work because you're depressed? What?' There's this inherent judgment that happens. And so I think that's a really normal experience to go, 'Oh, my gosh, this test validates this wisdom piece that I've been ignoring', because the world would judge me if I did ignore it. Lori Bean  26:25I've known, I've known that I've been like running from what I probably really deeply need to deal with, until I saw like results. Because it's affecting my body now. It's not just my mind. It's my body and my wellness, like you said, so am I functional? Yes. Am I well, yes, but could I be - what's the word, more well? Weller? Erin Bonner  26:39Weller, we'll coin it right now. Lori Bean  26:52Yeah. But I wonder how many of us this happens to, like I can just imagine. Erin Bonner  26:58Something I have had lots of clients say to me, kind of through the course of, like, the early stages of treatment is this shift. Well, I can survive, like, you can survive with the best them, you know. And if you've experienced trauma, your brain is probably real good at surviving. It kicks into that fight or flight mode and it pulls you through those moments. And so it's probably excellent at surviving. Thriving, on the other hand, that's where, you know, I tongue in cheek asked that question, because I know that Lori has said, I don't relax all that well. Lori Bean  27:28I don't know what you're talking about. Erin Bonner  27:30We're practicing that together. And, and figuring out, you know, how do I get into this other part of my brain that lets me thrive, I think is part of that. Maybe it's learning how to access that wisdom. Lori Bean  27:43And I'll share, like, so I'm doing the mindfulness program with Erin. And I think for some of us, I speak for people, it's terrifying to... I think I thought if I started diving in a little bit, stuff would come up - we've talked about this - that I just don't want to experience. But it's very gentle. I think it's kind of like baby steps. And so nothing is coming up that's like, I can't handle. I don't have to go to places I don't want to go. It's kind of like with mindfulness, I'm learning, it's coming in and out and just gently touching the edge of the surface and then coming back out. But it's not overwhelming. It's not scary. It allows me to be a little more present, not be in fight or flight all the time, because I have to get the cortisol down. But I can do it in a very gentle way. Erin Bonner  28:35That's cool. That's, I mean, that's exactly what I mean by we need some of these strategies, these skills, these behaviors, before we actually can jump in and do the work. Because as you said it's terrifying to do trauma work. Who wants to sit in like the worst moment of your life? I didn't and still don't. Lori Bean  28:51This is so interesting. If I would have done this before, then I probably wouldn't have reacted to EMDR. Because I would be in my brain in a way that wasn't so scary. Maybe. Erin Bonner  29:03And I love the term baby steps. And I think that's where, you know, again, there can be this shame response that we have as humans of like, 'oh, I should be able to handle it'. I just, I'm going to jump up four steps of the staircase and like hope that I don't fall on my face, when in reality, like that's not how we learn as humans, we need to learn in these small ways where we go, 'oh I can do it, oh I can do it, oh I can do it' and build those success steps to develop this ability that, you know, if I'm going to sit down and do trauma work with somebody, whether it's formal, prolonged exposure, or you know, some adaptation where we're doing some sort of flooding and, you know, we're improvising a bit, that that there has to be this ability to go 'Okay, so we're gonna do mindfulness today, we're gonna do mindfulness of the worst moment of your life though, and the emotions that go with that'. That takes a lot of practice. That's where that sorry/not sorry, comes in. This isn't going to be pleasant. And it's maybe going to heal your brain. If we've set it up properly, and set it up effectively. Lori Bean  29:56And I think about like the whole neuroplasticity thing. That if you spent so many years rewiring your brain to a certain state, you can't just rush in and rewire it back. Like, I'm assuming it's a process that happens with baby steps, piece by piece. Erin Bonner  30:13Absolutely, it's a lot of repetition that, if you've ever done PE, you know, it's a lot of repetition. In fact, often, you know, after we're done visiting a memory of a certain trauma, you know, at the very end, I'll get the report from clients, I'm like, I'm actually really sick of that story. I'm really sick of that moment in my life, not in a fear based way, in a I'm like, I'm just tired of hearing that story over and over and over again. Because the brain learns, I don't have to have that emotional reaction, because I'm not in that mode anymore. It does what we call habituation. It heals itself, it trains our kind of new way of being, in that we can have access to the parts of our brain that we need to do that cognitive processing. Have those conversations that are restorative and healing, and help us move forward. It's not about moving on. It's not about leaving things in the past. It's about saying, hey, this is part of, you know, my life and my experience and maybe part of who I am as a human. Okay, now, what are those next steps? I really pride myself - I was talking to another clinician in Calgary, actually, a week ago - we were talking about how we really enjoy being real with our clients. I don't mind sharing bits and pieces of my story with my clients, because I wouldn't be a therapist, if I hadn't been diagnosed with PTSD. Like I wouldn't be sitting right here right now, if I hadn't gone through the experience that I had. Do I wish I had gone through that experience? No! Absolutely not. I would love to get those years back. And at the same time, this kind of meaning that I've taken from that, that wisdom that I've cultivated, this ability to sit in a room with someone who is going through the whole experience of treating trauma and having that diagnosis of PTSD, I wouldn't be the clinician I am now, I think, without my experience. And so this is where that kind of wisdom piece. It's not a guarantee trauma equals wisdom. It's how do we access the help to, you know, help us cultivate this experience, this awful trauma experience, in whatever shape or form that ends up being for us, into this cultivation of learning about ourselves as humans, about the world. Lori Bean  32:11I love that. Yeah, I'll just finished with saying I think when - I'm not a psychologist - but when I've been able to do some coaching or helping people from my perspective, my strength has been able to share my story, which I'm very comfortable with, I have many, because I think it just creates this level of safety and familiarity. And even though our stories are a little bit different from one another, somehow they have this similar note or they're, I don't know, there's always something in somebody's story that you can relate to, right? Erin Bonner  32:44And if you've experienced something traumatic, whether you know, it's assaults, accidents, whatever they are, or, you know, you have big emotions, and that's been traumatizing through your whole life. We end up often developing as like compassion for others. Sometimes, you know, we're blocked from that compassion because we're really thick in our own suffering. Lori Bean  33:01Oh and that's part of the journey. Erin Bonner  33:02Absolutely.  And so I think for lots of people, though, just knowing that somebody's been through something in that realm, there's this humanness that I think bonds us together. Lori Bean  33:12I love that. I love that. Well, thank you. Erin Bonner  33:16You're welcome. Lori Bean  33:17I just want to say that I think there's hope for people. Like I think, don't give up and say that, you know, because you've had a really horrible experience that there isn't support to get you through it. And I love that what we do here is we're not going to make you do anything that you're uncomfortable with, and it is baby steps and finding the right practitioners or modalities that really fit your needs in the moment. Because you're right, you might not be ready, let's find out what you're ready for to take those baby steps. Erin Bonner  33:48And I like the concept of hope that, you know, Brene Brown famously says like, hope is not an emotion, it's a concept. You know, hopeless is an emotion, hope is this idea that we can, you know, see some sort of light at the end of a tunnel. And I really hold on to that. I had a colleague share a quote, and I honestly can't remember the book, so I give my former colleague credit for the book that he shared with me. And it was a line in the book that I've absolutely borrowed and used with lots of clients because it rings so true to my to my heart and my soul. When we connect with those people who are experts in the field of healing, we don't actually have to hold the hope because they can hold it for us. And so I say this to clients often. It's okay if you don't have it right now, or don't know how to find it, because I have enough for both of us. Lori Bean  34:28I love that. And you have to find the right people, and they exist - trust me - who are there to support you. I love that. Thank you, Erin. Erin Bonner  34:39You're welcome Lori Bean  34:40Until next time. Bye.

Alyssa  welcomes Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist Lucille Rayner to the show to explain exactly what biodynamic craniosacral therapy is and how it works. Lucille also calls it Trauma Resolution Bodywork Therapy and she shares the healing benefits it provides. Lucille describes the path that led her to biodynamic craniosacral therapy and how the very first time she experienced it, she felt her body rushing towards the therapist in response to the work being done. Lucille details a bit of the science behind the fascia, the connective tissue of communication along the spine, and how the nervous system and blood flow work with this modality. But the true appeal is in the sense of openness, spaciousness, and integration with healing that occurs through the therapy. Traumas of any kind are connected and can be carried in the physical body. Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy is a non-manipulative, calming, and orienting modality that can help regulate pain and change your relationship with how your body holds stress and experiences. About Lucille Rayner:Lucille Rayner is a passionate practicing Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist. Curiosity about the body, its systems, and how to support optimal health for herself and others, has been a long time passion for her. With over 10 years of experience in the natural health industry, Lucille fell in love with the study of essential oils, herbal medicine, nutrition, yoga, chigong based movement, and meditation. Practicing craniosacral therapy was a natural progression for Lucille and she is so grateful to have found this beautiful work.Lucille has a deep excitement to support and nurture a felt-sense relationship with the wisdom that is human physiology. She helps to create a safe and informed container for women to feel their bodies, remembering their innate intelligence and its grand capacity to heal. She is devoted to helping build a relationship of trust in the health of her clients, allowing them to be empowered leaders of their own experience.Lucille blends her practice with a deep reverence for this profound work and brings a fun lightheartedness that she believes the world needs more of. Trust, care, kindness, safety and joy are important qualities to Lucille and she tries to bring her own blend of that to the treatment table as well as to her life.Touch and deep listening saved her life and it is Lucille's mission to spread as much of it out into the world as she can.“Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, in the most delightful way!”—Maliya: website | instagram | facebookLucille Rayner |  Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist: website TranscriptionLori Bean As we all know, women in today's day and age need a different level of care. We invite you to join us as we explore the world of holistic care, what it means and how it can really benefit you.Alyssa Rabin We're going to be providing you with really insightful and practical information as to what our practitioners here at Maliya do, who they are, and how their specific modalities can support your well being.Lori Bean We're going to be having candid conversations with women of all ages, sharing their stories, their journeys, their struggles, and all of their relatable experiences.Alyssa Rabin Absolutely. As well, we're going to be informing you on how Western and Eastern medicine can really work together to help you to become and to show up in the world as the woman you are really meant to be. Alyssa Rabin  00:57Welcome to the Maliya podcast. This is Alyssa Rabin, your host for the day. And today we are going to be talking about something that's fairly new in my life. It has just been introduced to me since Mailya opened four and a half months ago. It is something that is truly near and dear to my heart, a practice that has saved me on many different occasions. And the modality I'm talking about is called Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy. Now people ask me all the time, what is it and I have no idea how to describe it or what I should tell them about, except that it has saved me after COVID. Totally, completely saved me. I have Crohn's, it has taken so much inflammation out of my body. And today we have our Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist, Lucille Rayner, with us. Lucille Rayner  02:00Hello. Alyssa Rabin  02:01Yay. And hopefully, Lucille will be able to explain it better than I can as to what is craniosacral therapy? Why don't we start first with who are you? How did you get into craniosacral therapy? Lucille Rayner  02:25Well, hello, my name is Lucille Rayner. I'm fairly new here to Maliya. Lori is one of the students in the training that I assisted for craniosacral therapy. And she started this place and tried to get me to come on additionally. And it didn't work out. But in the last couple of weeks I've joined the team and I feel really excited about being a part of this. The vision is really beautiful. And I don't know, coming here just feels like I've been here for a long time. Alyssa Rabin  02:59Oh my gosh, absolutely. Lucille Rayner  03:01And it's only been two weeks. And I feel like I've been here for forever. Yeah, like I just have known everyone all my life. Alyssa Rabin  03:07That's what I was just saying to Lori the other day. Amazing. Um, yeah. So we are so thrilled to have Lucille here. We do have another Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist as well. Her name is Linda White, and she's fabulous. But today, we're talking with Lucille and so tell us how did you get into this? How did you even hear about craniosacral therapy? Lucille Rayner  03:29Yeah, it's kind of an interesting story. I've known for most of my life that I wanted to be some kind of practitioner. Like when I was little, I was always doing my grandma or my mom's makeup or wanting to give them little massages, or my friends and I would hang out, like after going to a bar or something, I'd be like, ah, everyone needs facials. So, yeah, I just always knew that I wanted to be some kind of practitioner and I started looking into doing massage. And that didn't feel right. And I did some work with Reiki and that was okay, but it didn't give enough meat, like in terms of anatomy and some of that science-y stuff. And then I traveled the world. For a number of years I studied yoga, I studied meditation. I was teaching that for a while in different places around the globe and got really into gardening and thought I was on it. I was gonna do stuff with growing food and I do as a hobby, but-- Alyssa Rabin  04:34She makes the best lettuce. Makes? Grows the best lettuce. Lucille Rayner  04:38I make it all on my own. Yeah, and then I after traveling and living on the coast and all over the place, I came back to Calgary and I was working at Community Natural Foods and they had this life coach guy that staff go and see, it was pretty great. And I was saying to him, I want to go back to school and find my path and blah, blah, blah. And so he gave, he gives me this homework, I had to go and find three different places that... or, like, research three different places that I could possibly see myself going. So I looked into yoga therapy and nutrition, and I don't even remember what else. Alyssa Rabin  05:17And that was obviously not the right path. Lucille Rayner  05:20And it was the day of my meeting with him, going with my homework of none of the stuff that I really actually wanted to do, and I went into the bathroom and then I came out and there was this little sign on the poster board outside of the bathroom at Community that said, biodynamic craniosacral therapy intro talk. And then I was like, what is that, and I kind of read the little blurb about it. And I had no idea but I just knew. And I was like, okay, actually, this is what I'm committing to, I'm gonna go to this intro talk. I went, it was actually here in Cochrane. And Heidi, the teacher at the time, did this amazing presentation, she's just very eloquent and awesome with her teaching skills, but showed this video of this developing embryo. So the different stages of an embryo developing, can't see my hands, but they do this curling and uncurling kind of motion. And she talked about how these underlying forces that created us are still within us and heal us. So this intelligent blueprint of how we developed and created ourselves is still a part of our system. And by accessing that, we can come into these deeper healing forces and come closer to that original place that we came from. And watching this video and hearing her say that I was just like, my whole body got it. I didn't get it intellectually, but my, like, my-- Alyssa Rabin  06:53You felt it. Lucille Rayner  06:54I felt open, I felt spacious. I felt tubes inside of me that I didn't... now I know what they are, because I've developed that a bit more, but like feeling fluids move and tides, and, like, I got all of this wash of this deep bodily experience, it just felt so ancestrally innate in its wisdom. And then there was going to be this little demo at the end. And I could tell the guy beside me was, like, gonna try to get to be the one on the table. And I was like, there's no way. Like my hand was so ready. And I'm like, as soon as she says it in my hand went up. And the guy beside me I could tell was so cheesed. And I was like, whatever dude. Alyssa Rabin  07:36Yes, this is my experience. Lucille Rayner  07:39And I got on the table, and she did this little demo, and she put her hands on my feet, that's usually where our lineage of people typically start. Just, it's a good way to get a sense of the whole of the body. But she just put her hands on my feet and I felt this rush, like, my whole system was just, like, running towards her. And she was, you know, kind of blown away too. She was like, wow, your potency and your health and the strength in your body, and all of this stuff started happening. And I just, I don't need to get too into the specifics of what was going on, but the way that she met me in this dynamic, neutral, non-forcing kind of way, I could just tell my system was dying and crying to be held and received in that way, and like, and the safety and the wholeness. Alyssa Rabin  08:32And it's a lot of spinal fluid that starts to move around and starts to heal the parts of your body. So that would make sense you feeling flowing motions and things like that, right? Lucille Rayner  08:45Yeah. And I mean, the body is 80% water. So there's, you know, there's lots of fluids going around. And biodynamic craniosacral work is really interested and oriented to how those fluids are and how they're moving. And so meeting the body in a fluid way, when you understand their fluids, kind of changes how your body responds. Alyssa Rabin  09:09So okay, so we're getting the down unders of what you experienced and what, more or less, turned you on to biodynamic craniosacral therapy. Who would need this or want this or their body would - what's the word I'm looking for - like it would work for them? Yeah. Lucille Rayner  09:36Yeah, people ask me this question a lot. And I have a hard time with it. Because my answer is everybody. Alyssa Rabin  09:39Everyone. I know, I believe that too. Lucille Rayner  09:43And from a marketing and niching perspective, you have to not speak like that. But I really do think that everybody, and I think different practitioners for different issues. You know, like some people work a lot with babies and families and one of my teachers always said, if you work with babies, you're going to save the world because you can help those early imprints and those early traumatic experiences resolve. And babies are so quick and so intelligent, and then that stuff doesn't get into a pattern. Yeah. So after being in that demo session and feeling all that stuff happening in my system - and I mean it was just like a quick little 15 minute show the class sort of how it works kind of thing - I decided to book my first session, like as a real session, because I wanted to get more of a sense of it. And went to see my dear friend Nicole, she's an amazing therapist here in the city as well. And same sort of thing happened, she put her hands on my feet, there was this kind of rushing, this opening, this safety. And then she came to my sacrum at the base of my spine, and all of this stuff started happening, like years and years of being crunched up and held up and all of those bony structures and tissues and everything just being so held, I started to feel this kind of rocking and swaying and releasing and expanding. And, you know, all this stuff happened while she was just kind of holding my sacrum. And I was feeling stuff happening up my spine and in my head and down my legs and in my feet. And I was like, what is going on. And then, you know, I didn't say anything, I was just sitting with that for a while, then she took her hand away. And my sacrum felt like it was, you know, dropped 40 feet into the table, it was like it sunk down into the table. There was this sort of release and warmth and spaciousness and, like, not even just in the physical aspect, but from some emotional things as well, because of some things that have happened in my body that have been stored in there for a long time. My body started to kind of unwind from that. Anyway, I can't remember, I think she worked on my belly a little bit, my diaphragm, but then came up to my head and was just holding the back of my head doing like a simple cradle hold, which is just, yeah, holding my head in her two hands. And I started noticing this wave and it felt like her hands were kind of rocking my head back and forth and gliding my head up and down. And I was, like, so then my brain of wanting to get into cranial work was like, okay, what is happening here? What are you doing? And she was like, nothing. What do you mean nothing? Alyssa Rabin  12:35You can feel things moving. Lucille Rayner  12:37Yeah all the stuff is moving around my head, don't tell me we were doing nothing. And then she was like, no, that's your structure starting to change. That's your, you know, occiput softening. That's the sutures of the bones of your head starting to get some space. The dura, the connective tissue around your brain starting to hydrate, get more of that kind of like rhythmical motion, your brain relaxing. Alyssa Rabin  13:00Almost like back when you were a baby, your original form. Lucille Rayner  13:05Yeah. Alyssa Rabin  13:06It's true, you can actually see the practitioners hands staying in one spot. But the skull underneath it shifts and moves as it needs to, like it's the most wild thing I've ever seen ever. Lucille Rayner  13:23And then it happens down the track too. And that's why it's called craniosacral, because it's, you know, the top and the bottom of the pole, if you will, are connected by the spinal cord, and the spine and all of those sort of deeper midline structures. So when you have an effect on one side and the other, that helps those central channels get that cerebral spinal fluid moving, the information in the nerve tracts speaking to each other, and then, you know, the nervous system is connected to everything in the body. So all these other systems start to kind of regulate and self regulate and heal and calm and-- Alyssa Rabin  14:03All on its own. That's what I found, which was amazing about cranio is, biodynamic, you are not being manipulated, it's your body is moving in the way that it can, and it wants to at the point, at that point in time. Lucille Rayner  14:19Well, and I think that's like a really beautiful piece of the biodynamics is you're orienting to health. Most things in life are trying to figure out what's wrong and fix that. And orienting to health is hey, what's going right here, hey, remember the fact that you're still alive? There's health running. And I ask people, like, how's your health? Most of the response is either worried that I'm feeling something wrong, which isn't true, or still oriented to the places of pain. You know, people aren't really often able to feel places that feel good or well, you know. And health is maybe a tricky word. I try to say things like, where do you feel your lifeforce? How is your vibrancy? You know, where do you feel somewhere, even just say, you know, where do you feel somewhere good in your body? And it's amazing how, like, people can't access that, because we're not met in that way. We're not taught that. But again, those underlying forces, when met by someone who's trained in this work, are just going oh thank god. Alyssa Rabin  15:32Finally coming out and allowing. Like I remember... so I've had past back surgeries and I currently have, well, currently I have double disc replacement. And I specifically remember, every time somebody would say to me, how's your back doing? Well, that's where you focus to. And well, my back hurts. So of course, that's going to be my whole entire everything. Yet, when somebody would say to me, how are you doing today? Totally different, you would not focus on that one aspect of pain, you can focus on other places. Lucille Rayner  16:10Yeah. And then if you kind of take that, you know, even one step in another direction, like what's going right, what's going well? Helping folks orient to that, simultaneously kind of pendulate between both of those things. Like, not to dissociate or deny that the pain is there, or that there are those places of discomfort or stickiness or held or, you know, big stuff, like people experience big stuff, and there's big pain in the body and in the world. Alyssa Rabin  16:37But not to focus on it. Lucille Rayner  16:39Yeah, just to constantly kind of remind and remember that there's also something else running in the background and try to bring that a bit more into the foreground. Alyssa Rabin  16:48So how did it do that for you? Lucille Rayner  16:51Lots of different ways. The biggest changing point for me was how much it helped regulate my nervous system. I have a lot of energy, I have a pretty good constitution, I'm a pretty strong, come from some strong Scottish stock. One of my herbalists said to me one time, you're like a Cadillac, you don't really need much, you just need a good oil change and to get put in the garage once in awhile. But I didn't do those things, I didn't get oil changes or go to the garage. So I was always revving on high and in that kind of perpetually hyper aroused state, which manifests as stress, anxiety, doo doo doo, inability to slow down, not being able to take care of myself. And also some other, you know, experiences that happened when I was younger, there was, I've experienced some, like, trauma in my life. So those things kind of undigested, and manifested as all of these symptoms, and then I didn't know what to do with it, so then I would try to self medicate. So addiction was the thing that was running for me. Yeah, a lot of anger, a lot of misdirected emotions. And just, you know, really having a hard time and not even knowing why. But as I started to learn more about the nervous system and started to get more of these sessions and started to turn the dial down, as I like to say, and have someone helped me orient to my health and orient to health in a different way than these imprints that I learned. It's pretty terrible at first because, like, I would get a session and I'd have to sleep for two days. Because when you're revving so high for so long, and the throttle starts to come down, you crash. And that's not everyone's experience, that was my experience with what was going on in my nervous system. But the more I sort of stuck with it, and kept getting regular sessions, and had my therapist help me recognize what's going on, the jet started to cool, I started to find more of that spaciousness, that wholeness. I found ways to settle and relax and my digestion changed. My heart rate changed, my-- Alyssa Rabin  19:20Life changed. Lucille Rayner  19:21Yeah. And, like, the tension, the general tension that I had just been holding in my body and that, like, guarded feeling softened because my nervous system was able to release some of those imprints. Alyssa Rabin  19:35Well and you had somebody who was able to hold you and make you feel as though it's okay. You can relax, you can slow down. This is what I experienced, once you feel that way it's almost like your nervous system just calms. You don't need things to mask what's going on and how everything is just go go go go go and just, like, that's how I envision it. And it's just, they have space to hold and to care for you. And it's okay. Lucille Rayner  20:11And let you feel safe. And also to not villainize where you're at. We respond to life in a certain way because of how we've had to respond in a certain way. And so, meeting that without villainizing it. Whatever kind of pattern it is, and that's part of that safety piece. And then all of a sudden, I became, like, so much more pleasant. Alyssa Rabin  20:36You are very pleasant. Lucille Rayner  20:39But like, yeah, my anger stuff changed. My addictions kind of melted away. I was able to sleep better. Digestion is still a bit tricky for me but has definitely changed. I don't have nearly the active responsive, reactive, I guess, system that I did before. And it's not to say that I'm not human. And I still get regular sessions. But I've come more into relationship and those things that triggered and hooked me before don't get me in the same way. Alyssa Rabin  21:13Interesting. Yeah, that's pretty incredible. Lucille Rayner  21:16You know, I've even had some of my clients be like, I don't know if this is from the work that we're doing, but like, I yell at my husband way less. Alyssa Rabin  21:27That's the work. Lucille Rayner  21:29I don't know. Yeah. Might have something to do with it. Alyssa Rabin  21:31Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Lucille Rayner  21:33As you tone down. Alyssa Rabin  21:34Well, I also find that after a session, I almost... I don't know how to describe it other than being grounded. Yeah, I'm very ADHD. I'm very go, go, go, go, go, go, go go hyper outgoing. But then after a session, it's almost like there's a calm, and you can breathe, and you can relax. And you can see things clearly. It's, I don't know how to describe it. And so when people say to me, what does it do to you? What is it? It does everything. I'm telling you, it does mentally, physically. After I had COVID, I was getting super bad brain fog, and I was getting hot and cold sweats. And I was getting so many symptoms, and I think it was after three sessions I finally noticed that I could think clearly. And I didn't feel like I was floating or underwater at all. Like it's, I think there's so many different things that biodynamic craniosacral therapy can help with. Like, what are some other things that can help? Like, amazing story of you, your testament to your own practice. But what are some other ways that cranio can help? Lucille Rayner  22:53Yeah, I mean, a lot of neurological things. Pain. It's really great for chronic pain. Yeah, just helping the brain to settle, and find that sort of safety, and change the relationship with pain when you start to feel something that maybe is not pain. And, you know, typical stuff, like headaches, migraines, great for sleep disorders, amazing for that. Really awesome for digestive stuff. As you know. Alyssa Rabin  23:24Yeah, yeah. So I was saying before that I had it for Crohn's. And I always have referring pains all throughout my entire stomach. And I think, I don't even know how far along it was, four or five sessions in. So literally, what it is, is you are fully dressed, you're laying on a bed, you have a blanket on top of you, you're just totally relaxed. And the practitioner starts, like Lucille said, by holding your feet. And that way she can feel all of the fluids, she can hear all of everything that's happening in your system. I don't know how but it works. Lucille Rayner  24:03Well, fascia. Alyssa Rabin  24:04Oh, there you go. Lucille Rayner  24:05Fascia. That whole connective tissue body is one long, massive sheet of communication. Because that's where, through the fascia is where all the nervous system and the blood flow run. So that's why, you know, you could be holding someone's feet and feeling what's going on in their diaphragm or their jaw. Mirror neurons too can do that. Alyssa Rabin  24:28Crazy crazy. Like, okay, now speak English to me. But yeah, like I found as the practitioner was going up my body and holding on to my stomach, I swear to god, I thought I was gonna vomit right there on the spot. That's how I felt for about two seconds and I said out loud, I think I'm going to vomit. And the practitioner said to me, I might vomit with you. Because they can sort of feel what you're feeling. And then I had a lot of pressure on where I usually get my referring pain. And it's been six months. And I have not had that reaffirm, that re... Lucille Rayner  25:08Awesome. Alyssa Rabin  25:09That pain anymore. Like, bizarre. And it was consistent for, like, 15 years. It's just, it blows my mind. That's why I'm so passionate about it. I truly, I do, I believe that everybody needs to try this out. And also you, Lucille, don't call it biodynamic craniosacral therapy. Lucille Rayner  25:33Well I do call it that. But I, you know, over the years people, you know, I'll be at a dinner party or something. And like, oh, what do you do? And I'll say biodynamic craniosacral therapist, and people kind of look at me like I have two heads. If there's the person that was like, oh, my God, I love that, I'm like, oh my god, I love you. Sometimes I just want to say accountant. I don't wanna talk about it. That's not true. I'm very passionate about it. But I've started, you know, I've been thinking a lot about what is it that we do, and we're body workers. And we're trauma resolution body workers. So I say I'm a trauma resolution bodywork therapist. And then, at least that kind of, people know the word bodywork, people know the word trauma, people know the word therapist. And then that can kind of put things more together, you know, and then I can start to say, using light touch, and being able to connect with the fascia and the fluids, and can get more into that kind of conversation. But-- Alyssa Rabin  26:37--and trauma being mental trauma, physical trauma, emotional trauma, it works. Lucille Rayner  26:44And I don't believe that any of those things are separate. I think we separate those things based on understanding, you know, the same way we separate the leg from the pelvis, but it's, or a tendon from a bone from a muscle, it's all the same stuff, it's just organized in a different way, or experienced in a different way. And so, like a physical trauma, like, let's say, you're in a car crash, your emotional body is going to be affected, your mentality is going to be affected. You know, you might now be afraid to drive a car or go in a car or, you know, and then plus having your physical experience. But also having some kind of emotional, something like grief or... grief. Alyssa Rabin  27:26Yeah, your whole body responds to it in different ways. Lucille Rayner  27:30It can get stored in the tissues. Alyssa Rabin  27:32Yes, your whole body responds. Lucille Rayner  27:34And so that's where this work goes really well with other modalities, because it allows your body to let go of some of those holding patterns within the tissue. And especially, you know, working with something like psychology, talk therapy is really great, but I don't think you can only talk yourself out of trauma. I think it needs to happen on the body level as well. And I worked with a lot of psychologists over my time, and I see how well those two things go together and really sort of support each other. And this work can be so integrative. So if you're getting other work like chiropractic or massage or acupuncture. And that's why I love Maliya so much, because I don't believe that one thing does it. You know, I think you need a team. Alyssa Rabin  28:22Team of practitioners. Helping you and guiding you. Yeah, because many people are saying that after a cranio session, some emotional things might come up. Then therefore, we have three psychologists here, you can come, like it's all sort of under one roof. Lucille Rayner  28:42Yeah, and I mean, in cases like abuse or kind of sexual violence that bodies can experience, those kind of memories or things could come up or something that's a little bit out of my scope of practice. And, yeah, would want to have someone be able to kind of help them talk that out and have different little tools and... but, you know, the body can also kind of start to find some safety around some of those things that weren't so great. Alyssa Rabin  29:15Yay. Seriously, you're probably confused now. Try it. Try it. Try it. Try it. It will, it'll change your life. Lucille Rayner  29:27I've been thinking about this a lot lately, too. It's like, the work is so profound, that sometimes words are hard.  Alyssa Rabin  29:36Yep. Hard to come by. Lucille Rayner  29:38I think about experiences that I've had that are, like, deep in nature, or deep in spirituality, or meditation or, you know, in my travels, like, things that have touched my heart and soul in such a deep way, and then I tried to vocalize and people are just like, what? And I feel like this work can be the same, like when you access that deeper place of stillness and that deep presence, something really profound happens and-- Alyssa Rabin  30:09-- and you have to seriously experience it to really fully understand it. Lucille Rayner  30:14And, you know, I'm happy to have, like, consults with people if people are kind of interested. And have a more specific conversation around their own experience, because again, it's like the general versus the specificity and the specificity is individualized. So yeah. If any of it sounds intriguing, yeah. Book a consult, chat with me. Alyssa Rabin  30:35Please call us here at Maliya. Thanks, Lucille. Lucille Rayner  30:39Thank you.Alyssa Rabin  00:57Welcome to the Maliya podcast. This is Alyssa Rabin, your host for the day. And today we are going to be talking about something that's fairly new in my life. It has just been introduced to me since Mailys opened four and a half months ago. It is something that is truly near and dear to my heart, a practice that has saved me on many different occasions. And the modality I'm talking about is called Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy. Now people ask me all the time, what is it and I have no idea how to describe it or what I should tell them about, except that it has saved me after COVID. Totally, completely saved me. I have Crohn's, it has taken so much inflammation out of my body. And today we have our Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist, Lucille Rayner, with us. Lucille Rayner  02:00Hello. Alyssa Rabin  02:01Yay. And hopefully, Lucille will be able to explain it better than I can as to what is craniosacral therapy? Why don't we start first with who are you? How did you get into craniosacral therapy? Lucille Rayner  02:25Well, hello, my name is Lucille Rayner. I'm fairly new here to Maliya. Lori is one of the students in the training that I assisted for craniosacral therapy. And she started this place and tried to get me to come on additionally. And it didn't work out. But in the last couple of weeks I've joined the team and I feel really excited about being a part of this. The vision is really beautiful. And I don't know, coming here just feels like I've been here for a long time. Alyssa Rabin  02:59Oh my gosh, absolutely. Lucille Rayner  03:01And it's only been two weeks. And I feel like I've been here for forever. Yeah, like I just have known everyone all my life. Alyssa Rabin  03:07That's what I was just saying to Lori the other day. Amazing. Um, yeah. So we are so thrilled to have Lucille here. We do have another Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapist as well. Her name is Linda White, and she's fabulous. But today, we're talking with Lucille and so tell us how did you get into this? How did you even hear about craniosacral therapy? Lucille Rayner  03:29Yeah, it's kind of an interesting story. I've known for most of my life that I wanted to be some kind of practitioner. Like when I was little, I was always doing my grandma or my mom's makeup or wanting to give them little massages, or my friends and I would hang out, like after going to a bar or something, I'd be like, ah, everyone needs facials. So, yeah, I just always knew that I wanted to be some kind of practitioner and I started looking into doing massage. And that didn't feel right. And I did some work with Reiki and that was okay, but it didn't give enough meat, like in terms of anatomy and some of that science-y stuff. And then I traveled the world. For a number of years I studied yoga, I studied meditation. I was teaching that for a while in different places around the globe and got really into gardening and thought I was on it. I was gonna do stuff with growing food and I do as a hobby, but-- Alyssa Rabin  04:34She makes the best lettuce. Makes? Grows the best lettuce. Lucille Rayner  04:38I make it all on my own. Yeah, and then I after traveling and living on the coast and all over the place, I came back to Calgary and I was working at Community Natural Foods and they had this life coach guy that staff go and see, it was pretty great. And I was saying to him, I want to go back to school and find my path and blah, blah, blah. And so he gave, he gives me this homework, I had to go and find three different places that... or, like, research three different places that I could possibly see myself going. So I looked into yoga therapy and nutrition, and I don't even remember what else. Alyssa Rabin  05:17And that was obviously not the right path. Lucille Rayner  05:20And it was the day of my meeting with him, going with my homework of none of the stuff that I really actually wanted to do, and I went into the bathroom and then I came out and there was this little sign on the poster board outside of the bathroom at Community that said, biodynamic craniosacral therapy intro talk. And then I was like, what is that, and I kind of read the little blurb about it. And I had no idea but I just knew. And I was like, okay, actually, this is what I'm committing to, I'm gonna go to this intro talk. I went, it was actually here in Cochrane. And Heidi, the teacher at the time, did this amazing presentation, she's just very eloquent and awesome with her teaching skills, but showed this video of this developing embryo. So the different stages of an embryo developing, can't see my hands, but they do this curling and uncurling kind of motion. And she talked about how these underlying forces that created us are still within us and heal us. So this intelligent blueprint of how we developed and created ourselves is still a part of our system. And by accessing that, we can come into these deeper healing forces and come closer to that original place that we came from. And watching this video and hearing her say that I was just like, my whole body got it. I didn't get it intellectually, but my, like, my-- Alyssa Rabin  06:53You felt it. Lucille Rayner  06:54I felt open, I felt spacious. I felt tubes inside of me that I didn't... now I know what they are, because I've developed that a bit more, but like feeling fluids move and tides, and, like, I got all of this wash of this deep bodily experience, it just felt so ancestrally innate in its wisdom. And then there was going to be this little demo at the end. And I could tell the guy beside me was, like, gonna try to get to be the one on the table. And I was like, there's no way. Like my hand was so ready. And I'm like, as soon as she says it in my hand went up. And the guy beside me I could tell was so cheesed. And I was like, whatever dude. Alyssa Rabin  07:36Yes, this is my experience. Lucille Rayner  07:39And I got on the table, and she did this little demo, and she put her hands on my feet, that's usually where our lineage of people typically start. Just, it's a good way to get a sense of the whole of the body. But she just put her hands on my feet and I felt this rush, like, my whole system was just, like, running towards her. And she was, you know, kind of blown away too. She was like, wow, your potency and your health and the strength in your body, and all of this stuff started happening. And I just, I don't need to get too into the specifics of what was going on, but the way that she met me in this dynamic, neutral, non-forcing kind of way, I could just tell my system was dying and crying to be held and received in that way, and like, and the safety and the wholeness. Alyssa Rabin  08:32And it's a lot of spinal fluid that starts to move around and starts to heal the parts of your body. So that would make sense you feeling flowing motions and things like that, right? Lucille Rayner  08:45Yeah. And I mean, the body is 80% water. So there's, you know, there's lots of fluids going around. And biodynamic craniosacral work is really interested and oriented to how those fluids are and how they're moving. And so meeting the body in a fluid way, when you understand their fluids, kind of changes how your body responds. Alyssa Rabin  09:09So okay, so we're getting the down unders of what you experienced and what, more or less, turned you on to biodynamic craniosacral therapy. Who would need this or want this or their body would - what's the word I'm looking for - like it would work for them? Yeah. Lucille Rayner  09:36Yeah, people ask me this question a lot. And I have a hard time with it. Because my answer is everybody. Alyssa Rabin  09:39Everyone. I know, I believe that to. Lucille Rayner  09:43And from a marketing and niching perspective, you have to not speak like that. But I really do think that everybody, and I think different practitioners for different issues. You know, like some people work a lot with babies and families and one of my teachers always said, if you work with babies, you're going to save the world because you can help those early imprints and those early traumatic experiences resolve. And babies are so quick and so intelligent, and then that stuff doesn't get into a pattern. Yeah. So after being in that demo session and feeling all that stuff happening in my system - and I mean it was just like a quick little 15 minute show the class sort of how it works kind of thing - I decided to book my first session, like as a real session, because I wanted to get more of a sense of it. And went to see my dear friend Nicole, she's an amazing therapist here in the city as well. And same sort of thing happened, she put her hands on my feet, there was this kind of rushing, this opening, this safety. And then she came to my sacrum at the base of my spine, and all of this stuff started happening, like years and years of being crunched up and held up and all of those bony structures and tissues and everything just being so held, I started to feel this kind of rocking and swaying and releasing and expanding. And, you know, all this stuff happened while she was just kind of holding my sacrum. And I was feeling stuff happening up my spine and in my head and down my legs and in my feet. And I was like, what is going on. And then, you know, I didn't say anything, I was just sitting with that for a while, then she took her hand away. And my sacrum felt like it was, you know, dropped 40 feet into the table, it was like it sunk down into the table. There was this sort of release and warmth and spaciousness and, like, not even just in the physical aspect, but from some emotional things as well, because of some things that have happened in my body that have been stored in there for a long time. My body started to kind of unwind from that. Anyway, I can't remember, I think she worked on my belly a little bit, my diaphragm, but then came up to my head and was just holding the back of my head doing like a simple cradle hold, which is just, yeah, holding my head in her two hands. And I started noticing this wave and it felt like her hands were kind of rocking my head back and forth and gliding my head up and down. And I was, like, so then my brain of wanting to get into cranial work was like, okay, what is happening here? What are you doing? And she was like, nothing. What do you mean nothing? Alyssa Rabin  12:35You can feel things moving. Lucille Rayner  12:37Yeah all the stuff is moving around my head, don't tell me we were doing nothing. And then she was like, no, that's your structure starting to change. That's your, you know, occiput softening. That's the sutures of the bones of your head starting to get some space. The dura, the connective tissue around your brain starting to hydrate, get more of that kind of like rhythmical motion, your brain relaxing. Alyssa Rabin  13:00Almost like back when you were a baby, your original form. Lucille Rayner  13:05Yeah. Alyssa Rabin  13:06It's true, you can actually see the practitioners hands staying in one spot. But the skull underneath it shifts and moves as it needs to, like it's the most wild thing I've ever seen ever. Lucille Rayner  13:23And then it happens down the track too. And that's why it's called craniosacral, because it's, you know, the top and the bottom of the pole, if you will, are connected by the spinal cord, and the spine and all of those sort of deeper midline structures. So when you have an effect on one side and the other, that helps those central channels get that cerebral spinal fluid moving, the information in the nerve tracts speaking to each other, and then, you know, the nervous system is connected to everything in the body. So all these other systems start to kind of regulate and self regulate and heal and calm and-- Alyssa Rabin  14:03All on its own. That's what I found, which was amazing about cranio is, biodynamic, you are not being manipulated, it's your body is moving in the way that it can, and it wants to at the point, at that point in time. Lucille Rayner  14:19Well, and I think that's like a really beautiful piece of of the biodynamics is you're orienting to health. Most things in life are trying to figure out what's wrong and fix that. And orienting to health is hey, what's going right here, hey, remember the fact that you're still alive? There's health running. And I ask people, like, how's your health? Most of the response is either worried that I'm feeling something wrong, which isn't true, or still oriented to the places of pain. You know, people aren't really often able to feel places that feel good or well, you know. And health is maybe a tricky word. I try to say things like, where do you feel your lifeforce? How is your vibrancy? You know, where do you feel somewhere, even just say, you know, where do you feel somewhere good in your body? And it's amazing how, like, people can't access that, because we're not met in that way. We're not taught that. But again, those underlying forces, when met by someone who's trained in this work, are just going oh thank god. Alyssa Rabin  15:32Finally coming out and allowing. Like I remember... so I've had past back surgeries and I currently have, well, currently I have double disc replacement. And I specifically remember, every time somebody would say to me, how's your back doing? Well, that's where you focus to. And well, my back hurts. So of course, that's going to be my whole entire everything. Yet, when somebody would say to me, how are you doing today? Totally different, you would not focus on that one aspect of pain, you can focus on other places. Lucille Rayner  16:10Yeah. And then if you kind of take that, you know, even one step in another direction, like what's going right, what's going well? Helping folks orient to that, simultaneously kind of pendulate between both of those things. Like, not to dissociate or deny that the pain is there, or that there are those places of discomfort or stickiness or held or, you know, big stuff, like people experience big stuff, and there's big pain in the body and in the world. Alyssa Rabin  16:37But not to focus on it. Lucille Rayner  16:39Yeah, just to constantly kind of remind and remember that there's also something else running in the background and try to bring that a bit more into the foreground. Alyssa Rabin  16:48So how did it do that for you? Lucille Rayner  16:51Lots of different ways. The biggest changing point for me was how much it helped regulate my nervous system. I have a lot of energy, I have a pretty good constitution, I'm a pretty strong, come from some strong Scottish stock. One of my herbalists said to me one time, you're like a Cadillac, you don't really need much, you just need a good oil change and to get put in the garage once in awhile. But I didn't do those things, I didn't get oil changes or go to the garage. So I was always revving on high and in that kind of perpetually hyper aroused state, which manifests as stress, anxiety, doo doo doo, inability to slow down, not being able to take care of myself. And also some other, you know, experiences that happened when I was younger, there was, I've experienced some, like, trauma in my life. So those things kind of undigested, and manifested as all of these symptoms, and then I didn't know what to do with it, so then I would try to self medicate. So addiction was the thing that was running for me. Yeah, a lot of anger, a lot of misdirected emotions. And just, you know, really having a hard time and not even knowing why. But as I started to learn more about the nervous system and started to get more of these sessions and started to turn the dial down, as I like to say, and have someone helped me orient to my health and orient to health in a different way than these imprints that I learned. It's pretty terrible at first because, like, I would get a session and I'd have to sleep for two days. Because when you're revving so high for so long, and the throttle starts to come down, you crash. And that's not everyone's experience, that was my experience with what was going on in my nervous system. But the more I sort of stuck with it, and kept getting regular sessions, and had my therapist help me recognize what's going on, the jet started to cool, I started to find more of that spaciousness, that wholeness. I found ways to settle and relax and my digestion changed. My heart rate changed, my-- Alyssa Rabin  19:20Life changed. Lucille Rayner  19:21Yeah. And, like, the tension, the general tension that I had just been holding in my body and that, like, guarded feeling softened because my nervous system was able to release some of those imprints. Alyssa Rabin  19:35Well and you had somebody who was able to hold you and make you feel as though it's okay. You can relax, you can slow down. This is what I experienced, once you feel that way it's almost like your nervous system just calms. You don't need things to mask what's going on and how everything is just go go go go go and just, like, that's how I envision it. And it's just, they have space to hold and to care for you. And it's okay. Lucille Rayner  20:11And let you feel safe. And also to not villainize where you're at. We respond to life in a certain way because of how we've had to respond in a certain way. And so, meeting that without villainizing it. Whatever kind of pattern it is, and that's part of that safety piece. And then all of a sudden, I became, like, so much more pleasant. Alyssa Rabin  20:36You are very pleasant. Lucille Rayner  20:39But like, yeah, my anger stuff changed. My addictions kind of melted away. I was able to sleep better. Digestion is still a bit tricky for me but has definitely changed. I don't have nearly the active responsive, reactive, I guess, system that I did before. And it's not to say that I'm not human. And I still get regular sessions. But I've come more into relationship and those things that triggered and hooked me before don't get me in the same way. Alyssa Rabin  21:13Interesting. Yeah, that's pretty incredible. Lucille Rayner  21:16You know, I've even had some of my clients be like, I don't know if this is from the work that we're doing, but like, I yell at my husband way less. Alyssa Rabin  21:27That's the work. Lucille Rayner  21:29I don't know. Yeah. Might have something to do with it. Alyssa Rabin  21:31Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Lucille Rayner  21:33As you tone down. Alyssa Rabin  21:34Well, I also find that after a session, I almost... I don't know how to describe it other than being grounded. Yeah, I'm very ADHD. I'm very go, go, go, go, go, go, go go hyper outgoing. But then after a session, it's almost like there's a calm, and you can breathe, and you can relax. And you can see things clearly. It's, I don't know how to describe it. And so when people say to me, what does it do to you? What is it? It does everything. I'm telling you, it does mentally, physically. After I had COVID, I was getting super bad brain fog, and I was getting hot and cold sweats. And I was getting so many symptoms, and I think it was after three sessions I finally noticed that I could think clearly. And I didn't feel like I was floating or underwater at all. Like it's, I think there's so many different things that biodynamic craniosacral therapy can help with. Like, what are some other things that can help? Like, amazing story of you, your testament to your own practice. But what are some other ways that cranio can help? Lucille Rayner  22:53Yeah, I mean, a lot of neurological things. Pain. It's really great for chronic pain. Yeah, just helping the brain to settle, and find that sort of safety, and change the relationship with pain when you start to feel something that maybe is not pain. And, you know, typical stuff, like headaches, migraines, great for sleep disorders, amazing for that. Really awesome for digestive stuff. As you know. Alyssa Rabin  23:24Yeah, yeah. So I was saying before that I had it for Crohn's. And I always have referring pains all throughout my entire stomach. And I think, I don't even know how far along it was, four or five sessions in. So literally, what it is, is you are fully dressed, you're laying on a bed, you have a blanket on top of you, you're just totally relaxed. And the practitioner starts, like Lucille said, by holding your feet. And that way she can feel all of the fluids, she can hear all of everything that's happening in your system. I don't know how but it works. Lucille Rayner  24:03Well, fascia. Alyssa Rabin  24:04Oh, there you go. Lucille Rayner  24:05Fascia. That whole connective tissue body is one long, massive sheet of communication. Because that's where, through the fascia is where all the nervous system and the blood flow run. So that's why, you know, you could be holding someone's feet and feeling what's going on in their diaphragm or their jaw. Mirror neurons too can do that. Alyssa Rabin  24:28Crazy crazy. Like, okay, now speak English to me. But yeah, like I found as the practitioner was going up my body and holding on to my stomach, I swear to god, I thought I was gonna vomit right there on the spot. That's how I felt for about two seconds and I said out loud, I think I'm going to vomit. And the practitioner said to me, I might vomit with you. Because they can sort of feel what you're feeling. And then I had a lot of pressure on where I usually get my referring pain. And it's been six months. And I have not had that reaffirm, that re... Lucille Rayner  25:08Awesome. Alyssa Rabin  25:09That pain anymore. Like, bizarre. And it was consistent for, like, 15 years. It's just, it blows my mind. That's why I'm so passionate about it. I truly, I do, I believe that everybody needs to try this out. And also you, Lucille, don't call it biodynamic craniosacral therapy. Lucille Rayner  25:33Well I do call it that. But I, you know, over the years people, you know, I'll be at a dinner party or something. And like, oh, what do you do? And I'll say biodynamic craniosacral therapist, and people kind of look at me like I have two heads. If there's the person that was like, oh, my God, I love that, I'm like, oh my god, I love you. Sometimes I just want to say accountant. I don't wanna talk about it. That's not true. I'm very passionate about it. But I've started, you know, I've been thinking a lot about what is it that we do, and we're body workers. And we're trauma resolution body workers. So I say I'm a trauma resolution bodywork therapist. And then, at least that kind of, people know the word bodywork, people know the word trauma, people know the word therapist. And then that can kind of put things more together, you know, and then I can start to say, using light touch, and being able to connect with the fascia and the fluids, and can get more into that kind of conversation. But-- Alyssa Rabin  26:37--and trauma being mental trauma, physical trauma, emotional trauma, it works. Lucille Rayner  26:44And I don't believe that any of those things are separate. I think we separate those things based on understanding, you know, the same way we separate the leg from the pelvis, but it's, or a tendon from a bone from a muscle, it's all the same stuff, it's just organized in a different way, or experienced in a different way. And so, like a physical trauma, like, let's say, you're in a car crash, your emotional body is going to be affected, your mentality is going to be affected. You know, you might now be afraid to drive a car or go in a car or, you know, and then plus having your physical experience. But also having some kind of emotional, something like grief or... grief. Alyssa Rabin  27:26Yeah, your whole body responds to it in different ways. Lucille Rayner  27:30It can get stored in the tissues. Alyssa Rabin  27:32Yes, your whole body responds. Lucille Rayner  27:34And so that's where this work goes really well with other modalities, because it allows your body to let go of some of those holding patterns within the tissue. And especially, you know, working with something like psychology, talk therapy is really great, but I don't think you can only talk yourself out of trauma. I think it needs to happen on the body level as well. And I worked with a lot of psychologists over my time, and I see how well those two things go together and really sort of support each other. And this work can be so integrative. So if you're getting other work like chiropractic or massage or acupuncture. And that's why I love Maliya so much, because I don't believe that one thing does it. You know, I think you need a team. Alyssa Rabin  28:22Team of practitioners. Helping you and guiding you. Yeah, because many people are saying that after a cranio session, some emotional things might come up. Then therefore, we have three psychologists here, you can come, like it's all sort of under one roof. Lucille Rayner  28:42Yeah, and I mean, in cases like abuse or kind of sexual violence that bodies can experience, those kind of memories or things could come up or something that's a little bit out of my scope of practice. And, yeah, would want to have someone be able to kind of help them talk that out and have different little tools and... but, you know, the body can also kind of start to find some safety around some of those things that weren't so great. Alyssa Rabin  29:15Yay. Seriously, you're probably confused now. Try it. Try it. Try it. Try it. It will, it'll change your life. Lucille Rayner  29:27I've been thinking about this a lot lately, too. It's like, the work is so profound, that sometimes words are hard.  Alyssa Rabin  29:36Yep. Hard to come by. Lucille Rayner  29:38I think about experiences that I've had that are, like, deep in nature, or deep in spirituality, or meditation or, you know, in my travels, like, things that have touched my heart and soul in such a deep way, and then I tried to vocalize and people are just like, what? And I feel like this work can be the same, like when you access that deeper place of stillness and that deep presence, something really profound happens and-- Alyssa Rabin  30:09-- and you have to seriously experience it to really fully understand it. Lucille Rayner  30:14And, you know, I'm happy to have, like, consults with people if people are kind of interested. And have a more specific conversation around their own experience, because again, it's like the general versus the specificity and the specificity is individualized. So yeah. If any of it sounds intriguing, yeah. Book a consult, chat with me. Alyssa Rabin  30:35Please call us here at Maliya. Thanks, Lucille. Lucille Rayner  30:39Thank you. 

Lori Bean welcomes Dr. Brandy James, Doctor of Naturopathic/Functional Medicine at Maliya, to the podcast to explain what naturopathic and functional medicines are. Dr. Brandy shares how each medicine works to find a root cause and consider the full function of the body.Dr. Brandy gets into detail with Lori about the ways in which a naturopathic approach would treat something like IBS, for example. She sheds light on how many different tests can be done and the types of information that can be gleaned from examining gut health, microbiomes, toxin levels, considering a full history in context, and taking stress into account. Dr. Brandy operates from a very devoted place of active listening and truly hearing her patients, which is something she and Lori connect on. Their drive is creating circles of support for women that go even beyond supplements and medicine into being heard and feeling care.About Dr. Brandy James:Dr. Brandy James understands how physical symptoms, emotional pain, and mental fog feed off each other – and that responsibilities of life don't pause just because we're unwell. Dr. Brandy is a licensed Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine and a member of the College of Naturopathic Doctors of Alberta (CNDA), the Alberta Association of Naturopathic Doctors (AAND), the Canadian Association of Naturopathic Doctors (CAND), and has obtained her certificate in Advanced Functional Medicine in Clinical Practice from the Institute for Functional Medicine (AFMCP).With Clinical training at the Harvard Mind Body Institute of Medicine, Dr. Brandy believes in the power of an integrated model of care. We need to look at the whole body to understand and treat the root cause of the problem. This is why she loves her profession – it allows us wider and deeper insight to why someone is feeling the way they do.Dr. Brandy's eight years of training and years of experience won't serve you well unless she does one thing right: Listen. Listening is both a core value and a personal strength. Dr. Brandy has additional training in Functional Medicine, Clinical Nutrition, Neuro Emotional Technique, Botanical Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Homeopathic Medicine, In Depth Lab Testing.There are many conditions she treats such as allergies, arthritis, asthma, autoimmune, colds and flus, chronic pain, depression, diabetes, digestive disorders, fatigue, hormonal conditions (such as premenstrual and syndrome and menopause, sleep disorders).___Maliya: website | instagram | facebookDr. Brandy James |  Doctor of Naturopathic/Functional Medicine: website TranscriptionLori Bean As we all know, women in today's day and age need a different level of care. We invite you to join us as we explore the world of holistic care, what it means and how it can really benefit you.Alyssa Rabin We're going to be providing you with really insightful and practical information as to what our practitioners here at Maliya do, who they are, and how their specific modalities can support your well being.Lori Bean We're going to be having candid conversations with women of all ages, sharing their stories, their journeys, their struggles, and all of their relatable experiences.Alyssa Rabin Absolutely. As well, we're going to be informing you on how Western and Eastern medicine can really work together to help you to become and to show up in the world as the woman you are really meant to be. Lori Bean  00:52Welcome to the Maliya podcast. I am your host, Lori Bean. And today we are going to be talking about naturopathic medicine, functional medicine. And we are going to be speaking with Dr. Brandy James who works out of the Maliya Wellness Center for Women. And I really wanted to talk about why we truly support this type of medicine at Maliya. For those of you that really are still unsure as to what and how this modality can support you, I thought we would just sort of dive in a little bit and discuss why Dr. Brandy is here and how she can support you and look at your health in a little bit of a different light. So welcome, Dr. Brandy. Dr. Brandy James  01:52Thank you, Lori. Lori Bean  01:54I'm going to start - what is naturopathic medicine and what is functional medicine? Dr. Brandy James  01:58So naturopathic medicine is a medicine that's been around for a long time, and I get asked all the time what the difference between conventional and naturopathic, I think a lot of people don't realize that there is a lot of training involved in naturopathic medicine. So we have, you know, four years of undergrad before we get into the program, and naturopathic school is four years as well. So this involves a lot of the basic sciences. So histology, anatomy, all the - biochemistry - all the ologies, to understand the body, but what we do too, on top of that, is looking at the body as well, from a nutritional standpoint, traditional Chinese medicine standpoint, homeopathic standpoint, botanical medicine. So learning, for example, how all those medicines can help different systems as well. So for instance, if we're doing the cardiovascular system, so what herbs can help that? What kind of nutritional things can help that? What kind of lifestyle mechanisms as well? So really, it's, you know, looking at the body as a whole and learning different ways of supporting that. And the philosophy is the big thing that differs. So our philosophy is, you know, really treat the whole person and get to the root cause. Because if we don't get to the root cause, then we're just putting band aids on something that's going on. So usually, when people have a symptom that's coming up, it's sort of the body knocking on the door, saying there's something wrong, and instead of just kind of quieting that voice, which often happens, I think it's really important to find the root cause and it's not easy. It can be, you know, can be like, oh, that makes sense, it's this. But often it's about peeling the onion to find out, because it's years of compensation. And the body getting to imbalance, like disease, isn't a quick fix. And sometimes it takes a while. But it's really, to me, it's exciting. Because when we get to that root, then that optimal health that people get to is sustainable. It's a new way of being rather than just, oh my gosh, I feel good. But I stopped taking my things or... Lori Bean  03:52Oh, good point, I stopped taking my medicine, and now I'm back to where I was, because we've really never dealt with what the root cause of the problem is. Dr. Brandy James  04:01Yeah. And I think it is also getting to know your body better. And it is, I won't say, like, work. But it does take effort. And it can be frustrating at times. But I think it's really empowering. Because when you get to that point, you know the tools and it's changed, right? So it is a process, but it's it's really discovering what that is. Lori Bean  04:22What's the difference between naturopathic medicine and functional medicine because the buzzword out there right now is functional medicine. So, is there a distinguishable difference? Or is it the same thing? What is it? Dr. Brandy James  04:37I would say... I mean, functional medicine is rooted in naturopathic medicine, like the philosophy. Jeffrey Bland, who is one of the founders of functional medicine, is a naturopathic doctor as well. And so the philosophy is similar, you know, finding the root cause. Functional medicine is really trying to find the function of the body. So where in that function, is there an issue? That could be similar to naturopathic medicine and trying to find the root cause. In functional medicine, we do have a lot of different testing, there is blood testing, you know, usually you go to your conventional doctor, you get a blood test or you get a urine test. Sometimes there might be a stool test, but it's pretty standard. Where we do with functional medicine, there's a lot of different what they call functional tests. So that could be a urine test, not so much to find out if, say, you have a urinary tract infection, but what is going on with your hormones, we can find out through urine. And because that will show the metabolites of the hormones rather than just a snapshot of bloodwork. We can do saliva testing, which also can measure hormones. We do extensive stool testing, which is really fascinating. They keep coming up with really, really good tests, which can tell us how you're digesting, what your microbiome was like. So what kind of bacteria you have in there, fungi, viruses, it's quite incredible actually how deeply it can get in, how you're digesting, how your pancreas is working, so much more than just if you have a parasite. They just keep coming up more and more with really great tests. Lori Bean  05:59So let's say I come see you and I'm having digestive issues. And I've gone and seen a GI, for example. And I have IBS - perfect example, because I'm probably one of many that have had that experience. So what would you do differently than your allopathic doctor or your GI would do? Dr. Brandy James  06:23You know, it'd be taking our own history of what's going on. Because as we know, IBS, it's a thing, but it's not really... it's just a label, it's not really telling us what's going on in the body. So, for example, their history of autoimmune disease, what's the dietary like - that's a big thing we forget about, especially in the stress society, we don't eat well at all. And how much that does influence our gut. Stress is another thing that when we're in that sympathetic state our parasympathetic rest and digest kind of shuts down. And in the last two and a half years, that's been where most people have been living. So what I would do is just take an extensive history, looking at sort of any tests you have already been done, looking at your diet, bowel movements, for sure is a big thing. And then, you know, if there needed to be any further testing, microbiome is the big thing for IBS. But it's sort of figuring wherever you're at in your history of where we would need to look at first. So if you are, you know, running on a 12 out of 10 stress, well, that's got to, we have to deal with that first, before we're going to get any results with any kind of gut function. Microbiome, that's a big thing. Do you need, you know, for instance, are you full of yeast? Do you need to work on that? What's the fiber like in your diet? So it depends on which road we would take considering what you have. Because, you know, you could have IB, IBSD, or IBSC. And that's great to know. Lori Bean  07:45So what would a conventional doctor do for IBS, for example? Dr. Brandy James  07:48It depends which, kind of where you're at with your symptoms. Like if it's more constipation, more diarrhea, they would probably just work with that. A lot of patients that come in, they have a lot of handouts. And sometimes there's classes they can go to, working on diet, say adding more fiber, which can be helpful. But again, I don't think it's getting to the root cause. Because you may have that, you know, irritable bowel, but why, Lori Bean  08:14Yeah, and so why I keep bringing up IBS is myself, I had years and years of chronic ailments, IBS being one of them. And I had done a bunch of testing, and I taken all the conventional medications, and the roads and routes and saw a GI and whatever. I do not have Colitis or Crohn's or anything like that. But what was really interesting to me is through naturopathic and functional medicine testing, I found out that I have an extensive amount of mold in my body. And along with that, I don't know if you call them dormant viral loads, that from what I've learned is, especially for the mold and the virus, is they attack or they attach to the mitochondria of the cells. And I have learned through this type of medicine, that there's a way to determine what the mold is that's affecting my body, what viruses are lying dormant and are still not allowing me to function properly. And then I went on a protocol to remediate - would that be a good word - or to support, expel, get rid of all these toxins in my body. Which was an experience that I think saved my life, actually, and also would have never happened through allopathic medicine. Would that be a good example? Dr. Brandy James  09:45Yeah, what you're saying overall, for sure. And that kind of goes back to looking at the whole picture, right? So if there's been mold, heavy metal exposure, that's all going to influence especially the mitochondria. But as MDs, kind of, you know, we always talked about poop. Everyone's like they're gonna change my diet, they're gonna make me talk about poop. But the microbiome, like the gut, is the foundation of our health. So I always say, you know, if you don't have a good foundation, and you're building a house, you can build the house and put on shingles. But if there's not a good foundation, that's not going to be sustainable house. And it's just more and more research they're doing, you know, when I started - when I graduated school in 2005, you know, obviously, we did gut health, but the microbiome, there wasn't a lot of talk about it then compared to now. So there's just so much research that the bugs rule our health, you know. And so, and it's over years, so whether that be yeast, whether that be mold. Lori Bean  10:37And actually, it's so funny when you talk about the gut. So for years, I was severely allergic to dairy, and soy, and gluten and all these things. And then when I went through this protocol to get rid of the viral load and the mold, it's really interesting now how my gut can now tolerate dairy, can tolerate a little bit of gluten, like it's getting better. My intolerance level has diminished, which is sort of fascinating. If you keep, you know, as you keep saying everything really goes back to the gut. Dr. Brandy James  11:14And, too, if you think of your body, like our bodies are incredible. And it can take a lot, but it's always like, so what kind of load are we bearing? And then when you shift something, so if you take away a burden, for instance, whether that be heavy metals, which can cause all sorts of problems, then that kind of frees the body up. More capacity, and that, you know, the function eventually, once you start, you know, taking the burdens away and getting back to balances, it's like, the body knows what to do. Like, we don't... we support the body in removing the obstacles or giving it the nutrients or whatever it needs. The body - mental, emotional - like, that's all really important. Lori Bean  11:49When you talk about heavy metals, so my brain goes like, what are you actually talking about? Where does all of that come from? How do we know we're even having this heavy metal toxicity? Like, do we know? Dr. Brandy James  12:03Like, we're in a very toxic world now. It comes in our air, it comes in our food, it comes on our clothing. Everything. Our makeup. I remember taking an Environmental Medicine course years ago, and, you know, once you start to get to see where they all are, you can't avoid it. So how can we support our body the best to not get overloaded. So making sure we're detoxing properly, making sure we're, you know, limiting our exposure as much as we can. Because we can't really control the air to a point. But there's a lot of exposure we can't... but we can choose our food, we can choose our, you know, cosmetic products, what kind of cream we put on our body, what our houses do, you know. That's a big thing, new houses, there are lots of toxins in there. Lori Bean  12:45So if you have this over-abundant toxic load in your body, and you discover that, what do you do to get rid of it? Is it like supplements that you take? What is it? Dr. Brandy James  12:56Depends how toxic and what toxin. I mean, there are some toxins that will, you know, like mercury is a tough one to eliminate. So then that would have to be, you know, probably doing some some kind of key later to key that out of the body. So that's not something I do anymore. But I think it's really important. I mean, I know people who are trained in that. But it's not, you know, you'll hear people like, oh, I take chlorella, and I'm getting rid of my mercury. But that's not possible. Certain heavy metals, too, will deposit in the brain, and you need to have something that will cross the blood brain barrier in order to keylate that and get it out. Lori Bean  13:29That was one of my things, actually. And I had my mercury fillings taken out. And I had the new composite put in. So that was something they were pretty adamant at the time. Dr. Brandy James  13:39With anything if we can just, I wouldn't say prevent, because there's only so much we can do, but do our best to eliminate exposure. So, you know, there are companies that can come in and you know, do your house, so it's.... free. Well, it's gonna be hard to be free. But you know, an education of what that means. So looking in labels, getting good air filters, like new houses, especially, there's a lot of off-gassing. So making sure you have like a good air filter, choosing, you know, probably paints and everything like that, that that are made especially to lighten that load. Cosmetics, that's a huge one, right, we don't think about. Food, you know, as much as possible organic. I get that's not you know, with everything so expensive these days, and looking at sort of the dirty dozen of which ones you want to, and if not making sure you clean them properly. And doing our best. Like, not getting overwhelmed because there's only so much we can do. There is an app out there and you can actually scan products and it will tell you sort of a list of toxins. I think it's on UWG, but so just like not to get overwhelmed, because we can't escape them. But how can we make our bodies in the best shape to eliminate, so that would be our detox system, and that's not just the liver, it's our skin, it's our kidneys. You know, so that goes into lifestyle, but we can support it and then, you know, talking to your naturopathic doctor about like, what's your need? Do you need support in whatever aspect maybe. Lori Bean  15:00Yeah, yeah. So what are you seeing the most of here at Maliya? Dr. Brandy James  15:06In the last couple of years that stress, overwhelm, and burnout. You know, most women are just going on automatic, lot of roles to play, not a lot of support. A lot of pressure on self, you see it a lot, just this disconnection. And, as you know, like women, we have a lot of willpower and willpower will just keep us going and going and going, where you're not listening to the body, because you're so disconnected to go. And that results in a lot of dysfunction in the body. Often that needs to be investigated at a deeper level, because just a quick blood test can tell some - it definitely has its place - but it won't tell us sort of the function of what's going on. So the mood can definitely be hormonal, it can also be like your brain chemistry is off. Lori Bean  15:48Okay, so my experience with getting my thyroid checked, was when I went and had a thyroid panel done, it was in this normal range. And then I still wasn't feeling well, I wasn't taking anything for it because I was in, I was really on the - would it be the high end - because I ended up, I think I have hypothyroidism. And I still wasn't feeling good because I was still in range and whatever. And then going through naturopathic medicine, we kind of approached it a little bit differently with supplements to support my thyroid a little bit better. And everything changed for me, actually. So even though I was still in range, it was at that for my body... it wasn't in range for my body. Dr. Brandy James  16:35So conventional ranges, they can be quite large. As NDs, we usually have our own, like we look at things a little bit differently as far as range goes. But often my thyroid, there's, you know, we use a subclinical. So you are having the symptoms, you may be in conventional range, but you're still not well, which would be your TSH may be in that range and may be four, and you're feeling awful. And you have all the symptoms of low thyroid. So we would investigate a bit deeper into that of, like, what your T four is what your T three is, even look at antibodies at times just to see what's going on. But the ranges don't fit everyone. Right? So that was, I say, we look at that sometimes differently in the different kind of range. But it's also looking at adding in the whole picture. So, as you said, sometimes, like diet, you were saying you got on supplements and that's great. And that can really shift people. Lori Bean  17:27Yeah, but I still wasn't great because I was feeling better - and I hear this a lot with so many women - so, fine, they finally go on supplements for their thyroid, like maybe they don't want to take Synthroid or whatever, and they go on some natural supplements, but I still wasn't awesome. So then I had further testing to find out that my cortisol levels were skyrocketed, like super high. And my progesterone was super, super low. And so we needed to navigate that. Was that because of my thyroid? Dr. Brandy James  18:01Hormones are quite complicated, but they do all affect, right? So cortisol is a nasty one, but it does affect everything. So if we were looking at a situation where you're coming up and you're kind of got that subclinical thyroid, you got a lot of stress going on, your menses is off, all that kind of thing. So we would do more than just the thyroid. You look at cortisol... cortisol can affect the thyroid gland, right? Lori Bean  18:25And thyroid can affect the cortisol? Dr. Brandy James  18:27Everything affects everything, right? Sometimes when people's thyroids are really not in great shape, like supplements aren't going to do the trick. So it's really getting that balance, and then really - because a lot of people are very resistant - but just really educating them. Why we need our thyroid to work properly. You know? It is a multifactorial as well, but just yeah, just really looking at the symptoms that you're having and how that fits with the picture of what your... not just the thyroid, but everything else going on too. Lori Bean  18:54You can test for progesterone levels, estrogen levels.... Dr. Brandy James  19:00Testosterone. Lori Bean  19:01You would test all of that if, for example, somebody like me, who is now on thyroid supplement, there's still things that are wonky. Dr. Brandy James  19:09Well there's, like, yeah. And it's very individual but especially with women, a lot of women that I see are in perimenopausal/menopausal years, like perimenopausal all over the place because of a lot of years of stress, too. So it's sort of where do we need to start? Because we can't throw darts at different things. It's really about where do we start in that function? What is the worst of - not even the worst - but where, what is affecting? Lori Bean  19:34And it's interesting, too, because like my norm is fight or flight stress. So it's interesting for somebody else to have a perspective or a voice on the way you're living your life because if you are always running in that, and that is your life, who knows what it is, you're a single mom with two little babies, you have to work full time. Sometimes those things In the moment cannot be changed. So how do we get supported? By further testing and other things we can do? Maybe it is, like... for me, it was introducing five minutes in the morning of just sitting in a chair and paying attention to my body and letting my shoulders go. It was as simple as that. Five minutes in the evening. And I know that sounds weird, but that was impactful for me. Dr. Brandy James  20:23It's not weird. Like supplements and herbs are fantastic, they can support. But if we don't change our lifestyle or mindset, that's not going to get us far. So when you're saying, what do I do? It's, like, well, it's multifactorial, and it's not just about doing, it's often about being. Because you're right, the stressors aren't going away. How do we build your body strong, and resilient to handle the tornado? And the big thing is self care. It's got to come from that because it's not easy. And again, getting support because we're... we do, most women that come to see me, fight or flight. Whether they be super moms with, like, four kids and two jobs or, you know, executives or all types, right? Whether it be 25 year old to 55. There's a common thread of just having that will, and doing anything, right? Like getting anything done. I ask every patient that comes in, what are your stress levels like? Out of 10, you give me a number. Well, I get everything done. That wasn't the question. And so it's getting to - and same with energy, what are your energy levels like? I get everything done. But that wasn't the question. So really getting women back connected to their body, how it feels, and learning how it functions. Because we just do... we don't, we're not being a lot. And I really think there's this really big shift right now for women that are kind of awakening to that, to like, oh, what I've been doing isn't working. You know, I'll often ask people what they enjoy most in their life. And sometimes it's a big pause. So kind of going back to your question, is I do think it's lifestyle, it's, like you say, taking that moment. It's how are you sleeping? What is your support network like? I hear a lot of women in Cochrane, some people have been here for a while, a lot of new people coming in, and they don't know how to connect, they feel very lonely and isolated. And that is not healthy. Lori Bean  22:14And it's funny you say that, because in listening to the asks of women, there's this huge piece around connection that they're missing. And we have, we do, we have a ton of people moving here from all over the place. And Dr. Brandy and I were just talking about how we are offering this women's gathering circle. It's a six month series that we're gonna be offering Friday nights, twice a month, I think. And just to like, just to be connected, just to find your community again, just to be able to share again, and you'd be surprised how many of us are going through the exact same thing. Like it's a little bit mind blowing. Different ways, showing up differently. Dr. Brandy James  22:55Absolutely. And I think we're so used to going through - whether with our family, or in our job place - of being okay. And it's weakness if you're not, or you can't show that you're not. I do this with patients all the time. It's like, I don't want to bother people. I don't want to be, I don't want to show my weakness. I should be able to do this. And so I think, as you said, that circle is so powerful. Because showing up, it's not, you know, let's complain or anything like that. It's like, 'No, how are you really feeling?' How many times you get asked that a day? Never. Not much, right? And so someone say listen, you know, even when people are like, 'Good morning, how are you?' And then they just walk by? And so it's like, 'No, really? How are you today? And how can I support you?' Lori Bean  23:35And we don't want to be vulnerable. Dr. Brandy James  23:37It's true. And I think this circle is very much of like, how can we support you? And just to be heard, you know, there's a lot of cultures that do that, like a talking circle. Like what's going on? And there's no, you know, it's no one there to fix it or anything, but to be heard. And that is so much support that I think women need right now, from what I'm hearing people come in with. And it doesn't take much. Lori Bean  23:59Like my anxiety around that was well, how much do I have to share? What do I have to talk about? You know what, it's really not... sometimes it's just the listening to what everybody's kind of experience, kind of very similar. It's all kind of the same-ish. Dr. Brandy James  24:15You know, it's all common threads. And I think to be seen, we spend a lot of our day not. There's a lot of women coming together now. A lot of people feeling the same way, and not knowing where to get the help. Feeling suboptimal, in energy, in sleep, in hormones especially. But where do we get that? Ends up lack of support. You know, just being held and heard. I can't tell you how many times women will come into my office, we have our initial visit, over an hour, and when we're done she's like 'I've never, I feel so much better because I'm heard'. Lori Bean  24:45But also you're an anomaly because I hear this all the time, too. And actually, we have to yell at you sometimes. Because her visits are an hour, an hour and a half, and they go on forever. Because you really do care. You care on a level that I've actually never seen somebody who's in your position do before. And I think you kind of get it. I know you've had your own stuff. And I think that comes from a deep place of understanding the care that you offer. Dr. Brandy James  25:15Thank you. You know, a lot of us in this profession have had our own journey. You know, mine started at 19. And won't get into too many details. But it was years of just not being heard. And it's something I'm very passionate about, is listening. Like, there's an act of listening, the art of listening, its not there much. Like, it's always there, you just have to listen for it. And really be active. I mean, there's so many distractions nowadays that people can be looking at you and just so vacant. And when women leave, they're like, I haven't been heard. Like, I feel so much better. I was like, I just listened. But, you know, through the years, it's an art and I've really, you know, kind of, I found out a way. And it's really important, and not to be distracted, not to be, you know, thinking about... a lot of people will have a conversation, and one person's talking but the other person's, you know, wait, like figuring out what they're gonna say to reply. And that's not listening. And we don't actually have great communication, which is all about understanding. And so when we hear - and like, again, I can't tell you how many times, we used to call it in school that oh, by the way, as a patient's leaving the door, like, oh, by the way - that's always where the gold is. Because it's, they haven't told you, and then they'll tell you some big story or a big, you know, health issue. And it's like, oh, well, we've been talking for 90 minutes. But it's because they feel listened and heard to, that they're-- Lori Bean  26:34---and safe-- Dr. Brandy James  26:35--vulnerable and sharing. Lori Bean  26:36Safe, they finally feel safe. And I think, too, like, even if we have amazing family, or spouses, or whatever that looks like, there's this sense of, we don't want to burden them with our stuff. Well I'm speaking for myself, but I hear it as well. And I think you offer this safe space where you want, you actually really want to listen. And you really want to get to the root of what is going on. And I know you say that a lot. But I really believe that is ultimately your goal. And you don't give up until you really figure out what's going on and how to support people. And I want to add to that, because we all want a quick fix. You're 50 years old, you've been living 50 years in this body, you've had no support, you've been ill for 20 years, whatever this chronic ailment is. It isn't a quick fix. And I speak to that myself, again with my mold, and yeah, my mold and viral protocol, it took a year. So.... and it took me probably five months till I started to feel better. And staying true to this protocol and being, you know, supported, that it will come. I think quick fixes from my experience, are the band aids actually. Dr. Brandy James  28:00100%. Thank you for bringing that up. Because that's something I do tell my patients, I think education is huge and giving a lot of people, it's another thing to do, right? Oh my gosh, it's gonna be so much work. Can I just have the pill? Well that's not really how I work. And that's okay. If people want that, that's neither here nor there. Lori Bean  28:16Right. And sometimes, and sometimes you just want the pill, because you're not ready. And you don't have the capacity. Dr. Brandy James  28:23And that's the thing. There has to be a willingness. And I think that some people are so burned out and have nothing left, that it's hard. Right? But where we start in that, which I do with a lot of people, too, is like, okay, well, let's give you some nourishment first. Because otherwise, you can take supplements, anything, till the cows come home, it's not... if you're not in a place where you can receive that. And little things, like I always meet patients where they're at. So, you know, if I told someone who's drinking two pots of coffee - and I did have a woman in her 80s when I first started tell me that's what she drank - I'm not gonna say don't drink coffee, coffee's not a bad thing. But two pots, probably not the greatest. But you have to meet her where it's at. So it's like, well, what else can we do? Maybe drink more water, maybe add something to your coffee. And that's just a small example. Because I remember it very clearly. Meeting people where they're at, because we're so stressed, we're in that fight or flight, people have been there for years. So to expect our body to change overnight and be like, 'Well, I've been doing this protocol, you know, I've been avoiding dairy for three weeks, it's not working'. Or I've been taking this, it's like, well, it's a lifetime, and I'm not saying it's gonna get a lifetime to get better, but it needs to be on all levels. So it's the lifestyle, the mindset support. Lori Bean  29:39And it's the same as me starting with the five minutes in the morning and five minutes at night. It sounds, if you knew me, you'd understand that even five minutes in the morning and five minutes in the night felt like 10 hours. Dr. Brandy James  29:50And I do know you Lori. Lori Bean  29:54But I now do it for 20 minutes in the morning, but it took me about six months to get past the five minutes in the morning and five minutes at night, and I hated it. Dr. Brandy James  30:03That's the thing, is putting it in what's doable. Because as you know, meditation, I love it. I think it's essential. And it's a practice. So as you were saying, start small, because you expect, a lot of people are like, well, I couldn't empty my mind. Well, that's not about doing that. You know, how you're saying too, its uncomfortable. Yeah, because you're sitting with yourself with no distractions, and it's like "ahh". Lori Bean  30:24All I was told to do, which was so cool, is sit for five minutes, and focus on my shoulders and dropping my arms. Focus on it. That's where my focus had to go for five minutes, focus on my shoulders, and drop my arms. I'm doing it as we speak. And you don't even know how rigid your body is till you do that. And you kind of push your shoulders down. And I'm like, holy cow, like... and so, yeah, my mind was focused on that for five minutes, but I was really getting this deeper connection with my body. Dr. Brandy James  30:55And that's really what it's about. Breath, focus and repetition. And really learning how we breathe. Like if we are... sometimes I tell my patients, okay, well, let's try and, you know, if you're not going sit for twice a day, then let's do this. Every time you go to the bathroom, you take five deep breaths, three deep breaths, one deep breath, it doesn't matter. But then you start to realize how much you are so contracted and breathe very shallowly through the day. And understanding, well, when we're breathing really shallow, that's our fight or flight that's, we're made for that. But we're not running from the bear every day. So how do we get into the deep belly breath? You'll know if you do it. Every time we go anywhere, we go into the bathroom every day, you're breathing all the time. Lori Bean  31:33And that's.... it sounds so simple. But imagine if we actually did that. That was our starting point. Dr. Brandy James  31:40That's your homework for today, Lori. Lori Bean  31:44No, this is awesome. I think I really wanted to start this first podcast with you, I know we have a lot of things to talk about, but just to create a deeper awareness of our options that are out there. And why we are such huge proponents of this practice, and this modality, and who you are, and what you offer people. And that's kind of what we're about. It's about care, ultimately, care. Number one. So just to be heard, in a 90 minute session, maybe that's your first step before you do anything. And so, again, I invite everyone just to have an experience with Dr. Brandy and feel what that feels like to be safe, to feel safe and heard. And understood. And then see where the next step takes you. Dr. Brandy James  32:36Thank you. And you know, it really, it takes a village. I really believe in that, is that not one person can do everything. And I think that's what we're creating at Maliya as well. And working together also with different modalities out there. So whether that be conventional medicines, psychology, psychiatry, that it's.... we're treating the whole person. And that does take a village. And I think that's where we're leading to, leaning to, and I honor you for creating the space you have, Lori. Lori Bean  33:03Well thanks so much for today. Dr. Brandy James  33:05Of course! Lori Bean  33:06More to come next podcast. We'll get into more detail. Awesome. Thank you.

Lori Bean welcomes her good friend and acclaimed tarot reader Tarot Lori to the podcast. Together they explore how each of their life journeys led them to their current individual purposes and how it feels when you find that purpose. Lori and Tarot Lori each tell how their personal journeys through living, and the careers they thought were their goals, ultimately led to a very different purpose. Through forty years of friendship, they have evolved into their current places in the world. Tarot Lori shares how she started in tarot and how she came to realize her purpose was to be a professional tarot card reader. They both give insight into what that itch feels like, into how your purpose will find you and seize hold of you, and how your purpose may well be the thing you already love that you do with or without payment. About Tarot Lori:Lori is a professional tarot card reader with over 30 years of experience helping clients around the world discover their purpose and reach their potential, while facing challenges with clarity and courage. Her motto is “Woo Woo Without the Cuckoo” and her mission is to enlighten, inspire & empower with tarot. In addition to being featured on CTV's The Social and the CHUM FM Morning Show with Marilyn Denis, Lori's popular ‘Card of the Day' and monthly Full Moon Ritual on Instagram (@tarot.lori) draw a global audience. Everyone walks away from Lori's readings feeling energized, inspired and empowered to take action—from baby steps to big leaps. To learn more about Lori, visit www.tarotlori.com.___Maliya: website | instagram | facebookTarot Lori |  Professional Tarot Card Reader: website | instagram  TranscriptionLori Bean As we all know, women in today's day and age need a different level of care. We invite you to join us as we explore the world of holistic care, what it means and how it can really benefit you.Alyssa Rabin We're going to be providing you with really insightful and practical information as to what our practitioners here at Maliya do, who they are, and how their specific modalities can support your well being.Lori Bean We're going to be having candid conversations with women of all ages, sharing their stories, their journeys, their struggles, and all of their relatable experiences.Alyssa Rabin Absolutely. As well, we're going to be informing you on how Western and Eastern medicine can really work together to help you to become and to show up in the world as the woman you are really meant to be. Lori Bean  00:57I'm Lori Bean and today we are going to be discussing the question, a very important question that we all tend to ask, are you living your purpose? And joining me today is my best friend from, I don't know, for how many years? Wait, 12, 24, 36... 35 years. Tarot Lori  01:23Oh my gosh. Lori Bean  01:24Welcome to the Maliya podcast. I am Lori Bean. And I am here with my best friend of 35 years, another Lori, and we are here to talk to you today about the question everybody seems to have, are you living your purpose. And as 51/2 year old women, we're just gonna come to you from our perspective of what that is, what that looks like, our experience, share a little bit about how we've sort of come to this awareness through experience. And let you sit with that and percolate and see how it feels for you. So welcome Lori. Tarot Lori  02:14Hello, I have to... listen. Before we go any further, I already have a quality control thing. It's been 40 years, not 35 years that we've known each other. Yeah. Math was never either of our strong suits. While you were doing the introduction I was counting with my fingers. Lori Bean  02:30Yeah, been there, done that. Wow. Tarot Lori  02:35Forty years. Lori Bean  02:35Yeah. So a lot of years of journeying together. And so much knowledge and awareness and growth. Also despair, sadness, grief that we've shared along our journeys together. Tarot Lori  02:56Yeah. And just the witnessing. Lori Bean  02:57Yeah. And it's just such a beautiful thing that, you know, who would have ever thought in our 50s would be the time and place where we come into ourselves, our truth? Where we know we're in alignment, even though - let me tell you  - living your purpose is not easy. And it's not butterflies and rainbows and fairy dust and this whole I don't even know if I would call it a spiritual awakening. Tarot Lori  03:28No, it's just, it's like coming home to yourself. Because for so long, you try to fit expectations that society has, or family has, or you have of what it looks like to be a grown up, like what it looks like to be out in the world. And in the moment you're in it, it is your truth. But with wisdom and experience comes the realization 'Oh, it's not a static thing, it's fluid, it's dynamic, it's constantly evolving'. Lori Bean  03:59And I think when you are actually finally living your true purpose, your essence, when you are really in alignment with your soul - and I say this over and over again - it's a feeling. It's an essence, it's a beam, that you only know when you're in it. No one can tell you, no one can... and I think what we would like to speak to is a little bit about our journeys, and what it looked like, in the beginning. Tarot Lori  04:34It's wacky. Lori Bean  04:35It's wacky and to be honest, the first 20 years of my career, I thought I was living my purpose. Even in reflection, it's definitely a part of my purpose. It got me to where I am now, in living in alignment. But you don't know what you don't know. And, I don't know, I think we'll dive a little bit more deeply into that. Would you agree? Tarot Lori  04:59100%. I think we need to give a sense of where we were versus where we are. So, I am, today, a professional tarot card reader. Right? I know. I have clients around the world. I do readings for all sorts of people, all sorts of situations, corporate things. I've written a book, I'm developing a deck. It is my jam. And I have been reading tarot cards for almost as long as I've known you, for almost 35 years. I always loved it, was always doing it, never considered that it could be a possible career. Anything more than a hobby/side gig/party trick. And here I am. Right? And I have a communications degree. I worked in public relations and marketing. I worked for Fairmont Hotels, I worked for, you know, advertising agencies, for TELUS. I worked for big companies doing corporate communications. And honestly thought that, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I wasn't great at it. Lori Bean  06:04I thought you were great at it. You were acknowledged as being great at it. Tarot Lori  06:08For certain jobs where it was being with people and, you know, pumping out... like, Spruce Meadows was great, because it was... how can you not have fun there? So it was awesome. When I progressed into more senior roles, and was expected to, you know, lead initiatives and bababa, not my strong suit, wasn't great at it. And to be honest, if it weren't for tarot, I would have been fired from a couple of jobs because I would take my clients for lunch and give them tarot card readings, and they loved me, but it wasn't because I was a great strategist of their marketing plan. It was because I gave good tarot. Lori Bean  06:39But at the time, you thought you were on the right path? Tarot Lori  06:43Absolutely. I thought I was killing it. And I was good at it. You know, I have a proficiency as a writer, I'm very comfortable writing, I can bang out copy easily. I work well with people and, you know, to be able to engage with people. You know, I was making good money. And I was getting elevated positions with every role that I had. So it was, it seemed like, Yeah, this is, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm on my path. I'm doing my purpose. I am a communicator. Here we are. Lori Bean  07:13I have a degree in communication. So I'm living my path of expectation. Tarot Lori  07:19And doing well at it, like being successful with it. And tarot was just this cute, fun little thing that, little obsession I had, that I was always really interested in. It was a party trick. It wasn't a purpose. Lori Bean  07:33And I hear a lot of people say, too, that, and I think it comes from fear, a lot of things fear, but it's like, well, I don't really want to do that, which I love doing, because then I wouldn't love it anymore. Or, like, a hobby where you're a photographer or you're making art. You know, if I do that for a living, I'm not going to love it anymore. But when you sit in the feeling that you get when you're doing something like tarot that you love, or having those interactions through tarot as opposed to a job that you're still great at, making a lot of money in, this is what you're supposed to be doing, they feel different. Tarot Lori  08:19They feel different. One is very enjoyable, and rewards me well. And it's not, I'm not digging ditches, you know, it's relatively, not easy, but it comes naturally. And I can do it. The other one-- Lori Bean  08:35--- and you're recognized, you're respected by your parents. The people around you, this is a admirable profession as a, I don't know, communications director, whatever you graduated with. You're not a tarot reader. Tarot Lori  08:57I mean, there was a lot of absolutely not. Like it was still, I mean this is three decades ago, it was not as mainstream or accepted as it is now. And absolutely fulfilling expectations of others and myself. But it was really interesting. Because the thing with tarot, and the thing with your purpose, is when you're doing it, you're in flow, and time disappears. And even if you're not getting paid for it, you can't not do it. I think that's a difference. And also to touch upon something you said earlier, and there were a few times before I went all in - like I am now - that I attempted, because I thought oh, I really do want to do this tarot thing full time, and so I did kind of go all in and I would quit my job. And I would go to, you know, the local woo-woo emporium and say, hey, I want to be a tarot reader. Do you remember? Lori Bean  09:53Oh I remember that! Tarot Lori  09:53Right, I did it a few times. I put, like, flyers up at the library and just expected the people to come running. And it was crickets. Because to your point earlier, when it becomes the thing you have to do for a job, or it becomes the thing that is going to pay the bills, the pressure can crush the passion. And so what I had to learn kind of the hard way, hard-ish way, is to do it responsibly and consciously and intentionally, of creating that tipping point where you do both. And then when the thing that makes your heart and soul light up starts to overtake the thing that pays the bills, in terms of the compensation you're receiving, not just the fulfillment but being able to pay the bills, then you go all in. You don't just, like, burn the bridges. And, you know-- Lori Bean  10:48--- unless you can. Tarot Lori  10:49Hope for the best. I mean, some people do, I tried it a couple of times, it wasn't great, but I wasn't there yet. And I can see now, with wisdom and age and experience, that even though I thought I was ready, I wasn't. And those times of going all in and kind of falling on my face, they were necessary. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now - I got goosies - I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if not for those quote/unquote failures, which were really course corrections and learning and figuring it out. Lori Bean  11:17Well, if I may add to that... So, it's so interesting to me, because the way you present yourself through your tarot and your ability to host these huge groups of people, and be in the media, and be on television, and have this level of certainty and confidence, and I don't know, it's mind blowing to me. I believe you would have never achieved the level of success you have right now without having worked in communications. And being on these boards, or leading these projects, even though they weren't 100% what you wanted to be doing, but you needed to go through all of that so you can show up as magnificent as you are today. Tarot Lori  12:06They were the steps. Right? And people are always asking, it's funny, people always ask in readings, it's what's my path? What's my purpose? And they want the plan. They want to know, you know, I'll do whatever it takes. I'll work hard. I just don't know what it is that, you know, give me the blueprint, and I just have to keep repeating and repeating, there's never going to be a blueprint. There never was and there isn't now, they're the breadcrumbs, breadcrumbs, breadcrumbs. And each of those little things that I was doing and that you were doing on your path, they're the breadcrumbs. And that's the blueprint. Lori Bean  12:40So when was the tipping point? Tarot Lori  12:44To go all in with tarot? Lori Bean  12:45Yeah, like, okay, it was 20 years of being in communications. You, again, still thinking that's your purpose, and you're not going to go and do tarot full time. So where does that tipping point come in? Tarot Lori  12:58It's so fun to have this conversation with you. Because you've been there through so much of those conversations with me going, 'I just would love'... because I started thinking, 'Well, why can't I be a tarot reader, that would be so fun' and trying to figure out what that looked like. Which was where those sort of, like, jumping off and going all in with zero plan kind of came into play. And in retrospect, it seems gradual. But in the moment, they're kind of big decisions. For instance, stepping back from those sort of corporate high level communication roles into more, kind of easier, nine to five, not as taxing, definitely not as well paying jobs that were just jobs. Not careers, right? Lori Bean  13:42Yeah. Like you worked at ..... Tarot Lori  13:45I worked at a couple of wellness centers, as - which, again, was great because it was part of my path as well, because it introduced me to people who down the road were really influential in just being, you know, mentors to me or guideposts in ways they don't even realize. That I didn't even realize at the time. But they allowed me to expand my tarot and so I would start, you know, reaching out to special event planners: Hey, do you need a tarot reader to spice up your thing? I'll come for free. I won't, I won't charge you. You don't charge me, I won't charge your clients or whatever, and everyone's a win. It's just to kind of get myself out there. So I was just constantly-- Lori Bean  14:23-- why did you shift from communications to - which was a big affluential role making a ton of money - or how did you have the awareness to go okay, I'm going to leave that, I'm going to take a job that's way more conservative, I'm not getting paid a ton of money, I can work nine to three and still do my tarot, like, what...? Tarot Lori  14:44Yeah, well, it was family as well, because I had young kids at the time. It was all these different elements coming together that, again, at the time, I'm not thinking oh, it's part of my grand scheme, right? It's in retrospect, you can look back and go okay, that's the, it makes sense now how it all happened that way. So it was a combination of having young kids, not wanting to do the commute, bababa, and wanting to be able to do tarot more. And also because I could do writing, kind of for anyone. I started just doing little freelance writing gigs here and there. And that's what supplemented the lower paying day job. And so I just sort of cobbled together a, like, a salary or a living out of that. And it's just the different pieces, the three pieces of that pie just started to change in terms of the significance, the size of the piece. Lori Bean  15:38And I think for you, from what I remember, it was never going away. There was a niggling, it was like you put tarot on the backburner a little bit, and it would show up. And you'd see an event being posted for somebody that needed a tarot, like you always... it's like this little, it's not a voice. Tarot Lori  15:57It's like an itch. Lori Bean  15:58It's like an itch that just keeps showing up. You can't get rid of the itch. You give it a little scratch, kind of goes away, but the itch comes back. And then the itch is over here, and then the itch is over there. And-- Tarot Lori  16:12-- are you saying my tarot is like a yeast infection? Lori Bean  16:16I wasn't going there with that. It is, it's like this little itch. Tarot Lori  16:26It won't go. Lori Bean  16:27It doesn't go away. Tarot Lori  16:27And it's the thing that you would do even if you weren't getting paid. That's the thing that is a sign for people in terms of purpose, because you would do it even if you weren't getting anything from it, except being able to do it. Which was me for a long time. Lori Bean  16:41Yeah. And, if I may interject, because this sort of falls right into my not knowing as well, and so for me.... oh, I was much more rigid than Lori. Lori was way more.... I'm still the same person, except if I take my ADHD medication. That's a whole other conversation. Tarot Lori  17:01You're getting there. Lori Bean  17:02But I was incredibly regimented, incredibly driven-- Tarot Lori  17:07-- disciplined-- Lori Bean  17:08-- disciplined. Had incredibly high expectations of myself. And so it was High School, University, you finished University of course you excelled, were the best in your class, yada yada yada, got a job, went out in the world, worked for somebody, then of course you had to open your own business, whatever that was. So... Tarot Lori  17:28And almost killed yourself along the way. I remember you sleeping at school, working at that first job, being so unbelievably driven and just outperforming everyone, but at the expense of your physical health. But again, in the moment, that was your purpose, that gave you joy, and you couldn't not do it at that level. Lori Bean  17:48And I loved it. I loved it.  Tarot Lori  18:07--and you're good at it, really good at it. Lori Bean  18:09Really good at it, I got paid a ton of money, I had amazing clients. I always thought that was my purpose. And I think in the time, during that time, so from start to finish, my own business with running a design company, whatever all that was, definitely was my purpose at the time. And then, as many of you know, I got into a car accident where my life shifted. And through the accident and my mental, emotional, physical states, when I say my purpose shifted - sort of in the same way where Lori mentioned that she was doing things without getting paid - I started to get an itch, just like Lori had with tarot, for being around other people that were struggling with emotional, mental, physical health. So initially, it was going to, whether it be information gatherings or symposiums or whatever on different things I was going through, as I had moments of feeling better, I felt a calling to support other women with their health and well being. And, again, I volunteered at all these different places. I wasn't getting paid, but there was this itch that I needed uncovered in response to show up for other women because if I could get through this, which was an aside from my design company, which-- Tarot Lori  19:40-- had nothing to do with it. Lori Bean  19:41Nothing to do with it. I didn't recognize at the time that this was the next chapter. I had to do it and I felt when I would go to the shelters or when I would-- Tarot Lori  19:52-- the distress center. Lori Bean  19:53Distress center. There's a feeling inside that I cannot, to this day, articulate clearly enough, what that resonances in your body when you are so living your truth and your purpose? And it was really difficult because I started to then go what do I do with this? Because this is where I'm transitioning my passion into. Tarot Lori  20:21Because you were coming home to yourself. Lori Bean  20:23Yeah, but I still love design. How do I leave that? I'm doing super well. I have amazing clients, I love my clients. I'm making money. I'm fucking good at it. Tarot Lori  20:34And it's the only thing you've done. Lori Bean  20:35It's the only thing I've done, the only thing I know. What the hell? What are my parents gonna say? I know I'm in my 40s, what are my parents gonna say? What are my children gonna say? I mean, I've spent my whole life being a designer, working in architecture, like, what the-- Tarot Lori  20:51-- all your, like, fancy designy friends and stuff, you were going to all the foofy events, and now you're, like, at the distress center. Volunteering. Lori Bean  20:59And the biggest thing - this is where the a-ha came for me - so after doing this for 15/18 years, whatever it was, when I would be at a client's home, I started to care less about the renovation we were doing, or the build, or whatever it was, and started to become more entrenched in their lives and their well being. So I had one client, one of my favorite clients, who would call me and if I wasn't home, he'd leave me a message. Where's Lori, my designer, my counselor, my psychologist? And it was like this, oh, my god, what am I becoming? Like, what is happening? And I started to care less and less and less about the design, more about the people and how I could support them. As I was learning, being out in the world, volunteering at all these places, what was available, it was like a natural progression and transition. It was still very, very difficult to make a definitive transition. Tarot Lori  21:58Well it was difficult for you because you are so disciplined. And were so rigid. To make such a shift seemed incomprehensible. It was like an existential crisis. And it's what, I think needs to be noted, is that it's not that we weren't living our purpose before, at any part of this journey. It is that our purpose evolved as we evolved. Lori Bean  22:23Yes. Tarot Lori  22:24And I think that's the key for people. Lori Bean  22:26And just, like, oh, this is, like, it's making even more sense for me. I think this was important even for me to be able to digest my path. Just like you needed to be in communications, and having all those high level positions that you did, so that you could show up to your greatest magnificence in your tarot, and the way you're going to have a TV show, and you're going to do all these incredible things through tarot, design taught me a lot. It taught me... I mean, even in the way that Maliya shows up, the center itself, I'll be honest, yes, it's beautiful. I think it's beautiful. I think I've done a really nice job from a design perspective, but I had no idea the feeling it would emote in people. Like, the comments I get on what this place feels like, would have never been achieved, if I hadn't had that experience. Tarot Lori  23:10Yes, because you are creating an experience for people. It's not just a nice place for practitioners to work out of. Lori Bean  23:39No. Tarot Lori  23:41It's an experience. Lori Bean  23:42It's tactile almost. Tarot Lori  23:44It's all the senses. Lori Bean  23:45It's all the senses. Which I would have never learned and knew how to procure, unless I had all these years behind me. And I know that if I had hired a designer to help me, it wouldn't have been expressed in the same way. It's really, it's really quite fascinating to kind of dissect this. Tarot Lori  24:10And because Maliya was something that I was with you from day one, minute one, of Maliya, the seed being planted. And to see it being expressed - this is, when we're recording this we're at Maliya and it's my first time seeing it and I'm covered in goosebumpies and I'm trying not to cry - because of how hard you worked and how much you put into it. Absolutely. Oof, the goosies. But most importantly, it's that this place, it's like your insides being on the outside. Not just in the aesthetic appeal, but the kind of practitioners you have, the messaging you put out, the clients you attract. It is like your insides have been turned out into the world, into this space. Lori Bean  24:57And let me say one other thing - and I would say this for both of us, I mean, there's other things, but I think this is really important to note - even when you are living your purpose, you still have days where you don't know what the fuck you're doing. Tarot Lori  25:12Agreed. Lori Bean  25:12I mean, things show up. You don't know how to navigate it. It's still a learning process. There's still moments where I talked about earlier. That purpose has a certain essence and feeling to it. Oh, you question it. Trust me, you have days when you question it, but the alignment comes right back. It shifts right back. There's moments that bring you right back. Tarot Lori  25:32Because you think how can this possibly work? How can I possibly support myself as a goddamn tarot card reader? Are you freaking kidding? How can you possibly - with, the experience you've had is not running a Wellness Center for, it is not being an... now you have been an entrepreneur, you have been a businesswoman, but in a very specific niche. And you are branching into something entirely new. And it is all on you. How can you possibly do it? Lori Bean  25:58Yeah. And half the time I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. But when I stay in alignment with my truth, and-- Tarot Lori  26:04-- what does that look like? What's that look like? Lori Bean  26:06What does that look like? Oh, and I'll tell you something, I didn't know what this was till a few years ago, I'll be really honest. I've always lived from my head. I still live from my head a lot. But boy, when you need to make those big decisions, when you fall into your heart and your gut, and you really sit with that, you know. You know anyways, I mean regardless, when you make decisions, but the more decisions you make from that place of knowing. And there's no wavering, and yeah, we make mistakes, I do a lot of the wrong things, whatever that looks like, things change, things evolve, grow, it's learning. But I know so deeply in me, the need for this, how it fills my soul, the phone calls, the odd phone call when someone... like, some days I'm like, Why am I doing? Like, what the fuck? Why am I doing this, like, I could go back to design way easier. I could sleep at night. And then you get those phone calls where you are one of the few people that understands somebody calling in with a level of illness or trauma-- Tarot Lori  26:17-- and desperation-- Lori Bean  26:54-- and desperation. And it's a depth of awareness and understanding that I know a lot of people possibly don't have, because they haven't had those same experiences. So all the things I've experienced that have led me to this point, for that reason, if it's that one person that I can hold space for... Tarot Lori  27:39And it's not just one person. And you see how, like, I always say in my readings I don't believe everything happens for a reason, I think that's dumb. But out of everything that happens, there's something to take, even if it's being able to hold space for someone down the road in a way you could not have otherwise. So not to say 'Oh, I'm really glad you had that accident'. It's more like 'That accident happened. And it was horrible. And here's what came out of it that you have been able to turn your trauma and your tragedy into triumph and possibility'. Lori Bean  28:16Yeah, it's... I don't know. There's a lot of... my mind's kind of racing, and I'm thinking about all the things, like... even at 40 when I wanted to embark on this, listening to the voices of my parents, or... what will, I don't know, like-- Tarot Lori  28:35-- what will everyone think? Lori Bean  28:36Yeah, what will everyone think? Like, what am I doing? I don't know what I'm doing. Like, all those-- Tarot Lori  28:41-- because it seemed nuts at the time, because it was kind of, like, where did this come from? It had been percolating in you. But when you finally voiced it, a lot of people were saying, 'What?' Lori Bean  28:50Yeah. It was something that kept itching and itching, and I became a practitioner of many modalities. But even if, within that, I knew there was more, there was an itch and an itch and an itch. You know, Lori, what you need to be doing. And I think for you, it's a very similar itch. Tarot Lori  29:09Because it's interesting, because I'm not a stereotypical tarot card reader, right? Like, fortune telling, crystal ball stuff. It's more like, I always say it's this conversation with your soul, and I'm the interpreter. You know, it's life coaching yourself through the cards. And-- Lori Bean  29:10-- actually, yes. Lori did a reading today for my daughter and I'm sitting the whole time thinking, I... yeah, she's sitting with a life coach. It was like a life coaching session. Tarot Lori  29:41But with, like, spirit. Like it was big. Lori Bean  29:45Yeah, it was bigger than I have ever seen probably. Tarot Lori  29:49Yeah. And that happens a lot. It's kind of like with you, when you speak to women whose lives have been so dramatically impacted, or impacted at the exact right moment when they needed it. And I get that from my clients, so it's not... I mean, sometimes it can be the party trick fun, for sure. It can be very entertaining. But more often than not, it's being able to meet someone where they're at and show them sort of what's possible, what to be cautious of, what their potential is, and to validate what they already know. Lori Bean  30:21Today was more than what she already knew. I don't even actually know how to explain what happened today. Because, I mean, I know there's been years of counseling and psychological support and all this stuff. But what happened today... I can't put words to it. It was like a life coaching. I don't know, help me articulate. Tarot Lori  30:42No, it felt... what it felt like, because I always think of visuals in my mind, it kind of felt like peeling back her skin. And seeing inside her spirit and her soul and her mind and-- Lori Bean  30:47-- her truth-- Tarot Lori  30:50-- to find her truth and to help her see it. The realizations that came were profound. Lori Bean  31:02And I've known you for so long. I've had readings. Today it was a whole-- Tarot Lori  31:06-- nother level. Lori Bean  31:07So to know that's possible? And then you have a situation... experience like that, Lori, and you know you are living your truth Like, to be able to support someone at that level. There's validation for your truth. And I think that's part of this whole thing. Tarot Lori  31:25And there's a confidence that comes from that. Like, even though we both have our moments of thinking, how the hell is this happening? It's not so much why am I doing this? Because we know why, we can't not do it. It's more... how's this working? Like, how is this possible? It's never a crisis of confidence that it's needed. And that it's true. And that it is, we are in flow. Lori Bean  31:47You talk about this little devil sitting on your shoulder, it's that. Tarot Lori  31:50It's ego. Lori Bean  31:51It's ego. Tarot Lori  31:52It's parents. Lori Bean  31:53Parents, who am I? What are people going to think? What if someone has an awful... Tarot Lori  32:00All external. Lori Bean  32:01Yeah, it's quite fascinating. So going back to, are you living your purpose? You're always living your purpose. I think every experience we have is part of your purpose. I think your purpose is the journey, actually. I don't think you ever get to... I don't know, it transitions into, like, this knowing. But I don't think one day it's like, 'Ah ha, I'm living my purpose'. Tarot Lori  32:28There's no finish line. Lori Bean  32:30Not for purpose. Tarot Lori  32:31But what I think happens is when you get in flow with your purpose, like, as it evolves, and you really... and, again, I really think it comes with wisdom and age, I think things start to get juicy at 50. And what happens is you now have the confidence to take it out in the world and expand, expand, expand with it. Lori Bean  32:52And the judgment doesn't sit so heavy, or you start to let go of the 'Oh what are people saying?' Tarot Lori  33:02Well because when you hit 40 your bucket of fucks that you have to give shrinks? And by the time you hit 50, it's pretty close to empty. By 60 I'm assuming we're just gonna be running through the streets naked, not given a crap. Lori Bean  33:15Well you might be, I'm not. Tarot Lori  33:18You'll be doing something equally brash and bold, you just don't care. Because it's kind of, like, you know what, I've been raising my family, and I've been working for this person, I've been doing this, I've been answering to this person, I've been fulfilling everyone else's expectations, it's my time. Lori Bean  33:32I feel like I could talk about this forever. I feel like I can reflect on my children. I feel like, you know, my son's in a job that he's also amazing at, he's doing really well, he's making money, whatever. I don't think he feels... it definitely doesn't have that resonance in his soul. I think he has another idea as to what he really wants to be doing. But this is still part of-- Tarot Lori  33:55-- it's necessary. It's a necessary step. Lori Bean  33:58The experience he's getting, the relationships he's creating. And when he's ready to scratch the itch, then it'll be time to scratch that itch, and I support him in whatever that looks like. And this will have been part of his purpose. Tarot Lori  34:16And not everyone's purpose is being Oprah, or being a professional tarot card reader, or being a wellness women's center founder. Lori Bean  34:22No. Tarot Lori  34:23Right. Not that I just... I equated us with Oprah. Did you see how I did that? The big three! But you know what I mean? Feeling like it's, like, it has to be a big thing. It can be within a family or in a community. When you're... when you are honoring who you are, and standing strong in in the truth of what makes you light up, in your heart in your soul-- Lori Bean  34:49-- it could be having eleven children. Tarot Lori  34:51Whatever that looks like is what we're talking about. It is a fluid evolving thing. Lori Bean  34:58It makes you, at this point, think, like, what's next? I'm so excited. Tarot Lori  35:01We have the confidence. And we have the foundation to now... and zero fucks, can't find a fuck, no fucks to be found. To be able to expand beyond anything... like, that's why when we were doing intention setting in this event we were doing last night, it was this or something better. Lori Bean  35:21I love that so much. Tarot Lori  35:24Right? Lori Bean  35:25There's a lot in store for us, Lori. Yeah. Tarot Lori  35:29We've come a long way from headgear and rugby pants. Lori Bean  35:34I'm so grateful that you have been on this journey with me. Tarot Lori  35:40Me too. Lori Bean  35:40There's actually no words for my appreciation for you. Tarot Lori  35:45I love you. Lori Bean  35:45I love you too. Tarot Lori  35:46I'm so proud of you. Lori Bean  35:47I'm so proud of you. Tarot Lori  35:48I'm so proud of us. Lori Bean  35:49I'm so proud of us! Tarot Lori  35:50Let's go get naked and run through the streets! Lori Bean  35:54Goodbye, everybody. Tarot Lori  35:56Thanks for having me, bud.

Lori Bean welcomes Jo Scheffelmaier to the podcast to discuss The Sanctuary at Maliya and the power of feminine energy and community. Jo is a registered Clinical Hypnotherapist, and a Women's Yoga Therapist, and supports women through private sessions, movement therapy, ceremonial gatherings and connection.  Lori and Jo discuss the physical calm of The Sanctuary, and how the vision is to shape it away from simply being a yoga studio to instead be a space where events, gatherings, and community sharing can be done. Jo explains how gatherings around the full moon, or breath work, or a sound bath, are all designed to nurture the feminine, support intuition, and create a very real community where women can share vulnerability, feel connected, and experience healing together.About Jo Scheffelmaier:Jo Scheffelmaier's soul purpose in this life is to support women who want to deepen their relationship with their Feminine and come home to their earthly bodies. With years of ceremonial experience, she creates containers for women to be seen, breathe, relax, move, be held, and connect to their inner wisdom and truth. Jo brings women who are on a healing journey together. Jo naturally gravitates towards Feminine approaches to healing - modalities that encourage you, to honour where you're at in your ceremony of life. Her approach is very holistic and she has tools to support you physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. Maliya: website | instagram | facebookJo Scheffelmaier |  Registered Clinical Hypnotherapist & Women's Yoga Therapist: about TranscriptionAs we all know, women in today's day and age need a different level of care. We invite you to join us as we explore the world of holistic care, what it means, and how it can really benefit you. We're going to be providing you with really insightful and practical information as to what our practitioners here at Maliya do, who they are, and how their specific modalities can support your well being. We're going to be having candid conversations with women of all ages, sharing their stories, their journeys, their struggles, and all of their relatable experiences. Absolutely. As well, we're going to be informing you on how Western and Eastern medicine can really work together to help you to become, and to show up in the world, as the woman you are really meant to be. Lori Bean  I want to welcome you today to the Maliya podcast. I am Lori Bean. And I have the pleasure of speaking with Jo Scheffelmaier. And I think this is going to be a really important podcast, where we discuss the importance of women coming back to gathering and connecting and community. We talk a lot about 'I want to be part of a community' and 'community is so great', but what is the essence of that? What is that all about? What does that really mean to be enmeshed and connected in community and how that can actually support you? And where does that idea actually come from and what we're missing in today's society, and what we at Maliya are really hoping to bring to all of you from this really deep place of love and compassion, and also a sense of knowing, which I will let Jo dive into a little bit more deeply. So hi, Jo. Jo Scheffelmaier  Hi, thanks so much for having me. Lori Bean  You're so welcome! Jo Scheffelmaier  I'm so excited to be here. Lori Bean  I'm so excited you're here. Yeah, maybe we just start with what The Sanctuary is about. And then who you are, why you've come on board, what you're gonna offer, and maybe a little bit about how we've shifted, too, from what we had and what we're diving into. So I'll let you take the stage. Jo Scheffelmaier   Thank you. Lori Bean  You're welcome. Jo Scheffelmaier  Yeah, The Sanctuary is this beautiful, like, 700 square foot space in Maliya. So when you walk through the front doors and turn to the left, there's these beautiful doors that open - these beautiful double doors - and you just walk into this space that is lit up with light, and there's candles on the wall, and plants that are flourishing. And it's just such a welcoming space. And yeah, it has shifted a little bit since the, kind of, inception of Maliya. From what I know, it was originally a yoga studio. But that also wasn't the vision from the get-go. Lori Bean  What would you say, in your perspective, because we started out as having a yoga studio, which evolved into that but wasn't completely in alignment with my vision. But as it continued to grow and stay out of alignment, I knew something needed to shift. So what would be your perspective as to why that's just kind of not what needs to show up here? Jo Scheffelmaier  Yeah, I love that question. Well, I think there's so much busyness and there's so much distraction that happens in the outside world. And so, oftentimes - and I've been in many, many studio spaces - but oftentimes it can sometimes facilitate being part of the busyness. It's like you're going to get your workout in, or you're going to run to your class in between getting groceries, or doing this. And it really feels like what we're creating here at Maliya is something that's just a little bit different. It's a little bit more intentional, like, really we're asking you to step into the space and just allow yourself to be, and to let go of the 'shoulds' and 'I should have done that' and 'I should have done that' and 'I need to do this' and 'I have to do that'. It really is just an invitation to be, in the space. Lori Bean  Yeah. And it's funny, because... I found it fascinating. So we did start hosting a couple of events, and the last event was supposed to be from 7 till 9pm. And everybody stayed hours longer because the container was so nurturing. And there was this beautiful sense of connection, and a place where you could be vulnerable, and people were sharing in a way that I just would have never expected. And it is about - I think it's also giving yourself permission. I think you're right, that when we run to classes or yoga, whatever, they're all great. But there's this time constraint, and you gotta get it done, and you got your workout in, and, you know, you did that breath work, now I gotta move on to blah, blah, blah. So it is, it's a different way to be nurtured, I think. Jo Scheffelmaier  Yeah. And even within those, like, you know, we are hosting - and they will be happening more and more - but hosting these different kinds of workshops or events or gatherings where... yeah, it is that invitation to step into a different kind of intention and to also bring your whole self into that space. Lori Bean  Because I think there's this perception that when women are gathering - and I've had the same myself - it's going to be a quote/unquote "woo-woo" experience, or I'm not going to do this, and I'm uncomfortable with that, and I don't know if it's too much for me, and I'm not ready for that. But what is the essence of it, and what actually transpires? Because that hasn't been my experience, and how do you articulate that to people that we've got to let go of those expectations? Jo Scheffelmaier  So yeah, with these gatherings, I really - whether it's a full moon gathering, or whether it's a breathwork gathering, or whether it's a class - it's really inviting us to step into this embodied part of ourselves. And if we think of the breath, and to just speak to what you mentioned, we breathe every single day. And, yeah, so as an example, we just did a full moon ceremony on Friday evening. And those kinds of offerings, these gatherings, really are an invitation to step in and be in community. And I feel like we live in this world where it's a very modern Western world, where we feel like we're so separate from one another. And we feel like our experiences are isolated, and we're alone in them, and no one understands what we're going through. It's a very, say, understandable or normal experience that I think everybody actually goes through. But when we step into these gatherings, whether it's under the full moon or the new moon, or just on a Tuesday night, it really allows us as women to step into this community, and to know that we're actually not here alone. We're not doing it alone. Because when you have, as an example, a sharing circle, and the woman sitting across from you says something that just resonates with you on a very deep level, or something that you've been wanting to share with somebody for the longest time, that is empowering. That is empowerment, because the chances are that the next time you join in that circle, you might feel empowered to share your story. Lori Bean And also, like, what I did notice about the full moon ceremony was that our stories are very different. Our experiences can be very different, but the energy around them is the same. Whether it is shame, or guilt, or sadness, or anger, or trauma, or pain, we all share those emotions. And so does it really matter what the thing is that is affecting you? And by sharing it, and by giving it a voice, you're actually releasing whatever you're holding deep inside of you. And I can promise you that someone in that circle has had a similar experience, or someone knows of someone, or someone shares pain for someone. By releasing your own pain, you're actually nurturing somebody else and giving them the power to share their pain. And, you know, it's funny when I think about all the different stories, and, I don't know, I think there was absolutely zero judgement, because the stories don't matter. It's the vulnerability and the ability to allow nurturing in, and hold space for one another, to create this beautiful container. I don't really know another way to, kind of, articulate it better than that. Jo Scheffelmaier  Yeah, I think that is beautiful. Lori Bean  It is humbling. And I think, you know, there's these communities around the world where many - we're probably one of the few that don't have an entire family or extended family or friends that nurture us and support us, whether we're having a baby, or whether we're alone, or - they all grew up in these communities, they all live together, they all use it, we don't have that. We're completely isolated. So think about that, in our society, the impact of just living life alone. And whether we have our parents with us or not, life's busy, parents are busy, both parents are working. I mean, we all know the narrative, right? But in other communities, funny enough, in many communities around the world that have these sustainable, nurturing environments, they don't have mental health issues like we do, they don't have illness like we do, because there's so much support. So.... Jo Scheffelmaier  Well, the term 'it takes a village' comes from somewhere. Lori Bean It takes a village. It does take a village. And imagine if we really showed up authentically and vulnerably. And really, we're there to nurture one another. And I think that could change the projection for health and wellness and stability and, I don't know, I can go on and on about that. And also, I come from a place where however you define woo-woo, I would say I'm not, but I'm open to learning. And I'm open to sharing. And you take from it what you will, whether it's... I don't know. And I think that's interesting too, like, why would we... I heard someone say, well, you're having breathwork gatherings, isn't that woo-woo? And I'm wondering if you could speak to something like that, because I don't know why we have these preconceived ideas. It's just kind of, now that I'm exploring all of this, it's sort of fascinating to me. Like, what does that mean? Are we just in fear of something different? Of something maybe that existed a long time ago, and it's back in the forefront of our awareness, coming back to our truth? I don't know. There's so many pieces I have questions about, but.... Jo Scheffelmaier  So to speak to just what you said about the breath work, I mean, our breath is with us every single day. We breathe every single day. And so what could that mean to develop a relationship with something that is a part of us? You know, a lot of us don't even breathe properly. Lori Bean  No. Jo Scheffelmaier  So, like, how can that be supportive to actually develop a relationship with that? Lori Bean  Yeah, and then navigating every day from a place of being connected to our breath. So we're not doing all these things where you hear about 'well you're not breathing from your stomach, you're breathing from your upper-' well, what does that even mean? What does that mean to actually be so connected with your body, that you're breathing from your diaphragm? Or your, I don't know, maybe we need to re-learn what we should have, or what we did, come into the world with. Jo Scheffelmaier  Yeah, exactly. Lori Bean  It's all the stressors, right? So it's just bringing you back to your body. And I think that also connects to why this Sanctuary is focused on women. And all of these practices we'll be doing, and all of these groups and gatherings, are really trying to get us back to the essence of who we are. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about that, as well. Because what, you know, in your explanation, what does that actually mean? Like, you know, you hear this phrase connecting back to your femininity or your feminine essence. I'm curious about that as well. Jo Scheffelmaier  Well as women, I believe that we very naturally embody this feminine energy. And, I mean, we all have masculine and feminine energy. But the feminine really is this, it's creativity, it's divine flow. Compassion, it's gentleness. Lori Bean  Intuition. Jo Scheffelmaier  It's intuition. Absolutely. And naturally, women embody this. A big part of my healing journey in the last five years has been coming back to my feminine through my menstrual cycle. And we really are in sync with the natural rhythms and cycles that exist within the earth or within the moon. And the menstrual cycles, in my own learning, really reflects those rhythms. I mean, just like there's four seasons of the earth, there are four seasons of the menstrual cycle. There are four phases of the moon. And so when we come back into these embodied experiences, and really listen to what our body is telling us, and what's going on internally, and on a physical level, an emotional level, and a spiritual level, we can tune into our feminine in a really connected way. Lori Bean  Interesting, because I would say 80% of the women population hate having their period, hate being bloated, feel disgusted with themselves, don't want to have a period. I mean, we live the opposite narrative. Jo Scheffelmaier  Well, and we live in this world, call it, that has been predominantly governed, driven, by the masculine patriarchy. And so there really is so much power that exists within the menstrual cycle. And so when we connect to it - like, what better way to make women feel like they're not powerful in a patriarchal society, than to make women feel like their menstrual cycle is something to be ashamed of, something to be embarrassed of, taboo, don't talk about it. Lori Bean  I love this story that a man can show up at work, and he's got back pain, so he gets to go home. But a woman would never say 'I have period pain, and I need to go home'. Jo Scheffelmaier  No. Lori Bean  So how do we - I guess it's practice, I guess it's creating this awareness and community that that's okay. I think we fight so hard, actually, still, to be more masculine. To show up - I mean, I just speak for myself. I consider myself having very masculine energy. And it's funny because I always wanted to embrace my feminine more. Like, how do I show up more feminine? And I think that's why, for me, I have very short hair, I think it's very, I have this masculine energy, but I still paint my nails. There's things that I need to do so I feel more feminine. And I love that this could be an opportunity to dive even deeper into embracing my femininity, I guess. I mean, the first thing I did when I had super heavy periods was I had an ablasion, let's get rid of the super heavy periods. And now in reflection, I'm like, 'hm, I wonder if I sat with that, what was that all about?' Like, do you believe that it's all natural, and part of nature and whatever, but maybe we just need to look at it a bit differently than it being a bad thing? Jo Scheffelmaier  Well, in my healing journey, like, I have deep, deep reverence for the menstrual cycle. And it's definitely woven into a lot of the things that I share. And so my belief is that, you know, when you have a very heavy, painful period, pain is a message. It's a messenger - just like anger is, just like sadness is - those emotions, or those feelings, are telling us something. And so what if we sat with them or, like, developed a relationship and asked what was going on? Asked our body. Because really, the wisdom, we have so much wisdom in our body, it's just a matter of allowing ourselves to listen to it, or to hear it, even. Lori Bean  And I hear that, too, like, even with people that have chronic pain, or what have you. The new story is to sit with your pain. Well, and I'll be honest - because myself, I have chronic pain - that makes me want to vomit. I don't want to sit with it. I sit with it enough. And maybe I just don't have a deep enough understanding of what that even means. Some part of me intellectually gets it. But, I don't know, it's too scary to have to sit with something that's uncomfortable. Jo Scheffelmaier  Absolutely. It's very, it can be very scary. And I think, just to touch on something that you mentioned earlier, just about your masculinity, even just, like, stepping into those gatherings as women, like, the moment when a sharing circle happens, and you decide to talk about something that, you know, again, you haven't given voice to, or maybe you haven't said it in that way before, you only told your closest friend, that is vulnerability, and that is the feminine. And so it's also about acknowledging that the feminine shows up within our sexuality, within our creativity, within our vulnerability, within our sadness, and all the emotions that flow. And that is feminine as well. Lori Bean  I love that. I love that. And it's, I'm reflecting on times where I have been that vulnerable, and shared, and it's super painful, but it's also so beautiful. And I feel, like, honored almost to be able to have been heard. And I'm not a crier, I'm just not one of those people, because, again, stoic masculine energy. But holy cow, the weight that is lifted when I give myself the opportunity to embrace that is huge. Jo Scheffelmaier  You feel the shift. Lori Bean  You feel the shift. Jo Scheffelmaier  And that's what, you know, when we talk about these embodied experiences, that is embodiment. It's like when you walk out of the room, and you're like, 'oh, wow, I feel a lot lighter'. Really, embodiment just means, like, being in your body. Lori Bean  Okay, I just had a huge a-ha moment. So, long story short, when I left my marriage, I had all these preconceived ideas about myself, and maybe I'm too this, maybe I'm too masculine, maybe I'm not sexual enough, maybe I'm whatever, whatever. So I went and I got very, very long hair extensions, thinking I would be more feminine. So I get these hair extensions, hilarious, because I don't even know what to do with them, so I'm trying to flip my hair like people flip their hair, and I'm trying to, like... I was super not myself. Funny, this is so interesting. And I changed my makeup and I got different clothes. Nothing changed for me. And I just had this a-ha. All this shit that we do to our exterior, all of it - trust me, I like beautiful things, I like nice clothes, I love all that stuff - but I don't think that changes anything. It changed nothing for me. But having a conversation, in a group, with women, and sharing my vulnerability has changed a lot. Jo Scheffelmaier  Or the intuition that came through that said, like, hey, you need to make a shift in your life. Lori Bean  Yeah. Jo Scheffelmaier  That's the feminine. That's how she shows up. She doesn't have to show up in hair extensions. I mean, she can. But she doesn't have to. Lori Bean  Interesting. And just the fact that I thought that's how it needed to show up. And then, I would have never thought of sharing in community, never. Like, I was having this experience, an isolated experience, by myself. Yeah, other people get divorced, but they're not going through what I'm going through. Jo Scheffelmaier  Another way that the feminine loves to show up is through rest. Lori Bean  We don't do enough of that. Jo Scheffelmaier  No. And that's why when we have like, as an example, in The Sanctuary when we have a class that's, like, a sound bath, and you just literally– Lori Bean  --what's a sound bath? Jo Scheffelmaier  So, sound bath will be... whoever's facilitating it might play some bowls, or they might use chimes, and it really is just an invitation to allow the vibrations of the sound to just--  Lori Bean  --permeate the body. Jo Scheffelmaier  Yeah, and to just be. And it's not... it's just an invitation to let them in, or just to listen to the sounds. Lori Bean And rest. Jo Scheffelmaier  And rest, absolutely. Rest is huge. Because when we rest the body, that's where the intuition can speak to us louder. But we're just so, there's so much, yeah, there's so much busyness, there's so much distraction. Lori Bean  And that takes me back to a yoga class, actually. So even though I think yoga is powerful, and it can be very cathartic, and all these things, from my experience with yoga, is I'm spending the entire time trying to do what everybody else is doing. Looking at myself in the mirror. Making sure I'm showing up right. I don't know if I've personally ever been embodied in a yoga class. Jo Scheffelmaier  And that's why I think spaces that really are an invitation to just be as you are, are so important. Like, I actually recently went to a yoga class and there was a mirror and, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on being embodied and getting into my practice. Sometimes I literally just sit on my mat because that's what I need that day. But I just, like, I was so distracted by the fact that there was a mirror. And I was, like, the language that was showing up about myself in my own mind was like, not something that I do. And I was like, what is that? Lori Bean Interesting. Jo Scheffelmaier  And so it's part of the container that is created, whether it's the physical space or the energetic container. But that's also very important. That's why I love The Sanctuary. Because it's, I mean, this morning I was in there and just moving around because it feels so good. Lori Bean  Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's so much to talk about this. And maybe we can do that on another podcast. Jo Scheffelmaier  We need a part two. Lori Bean  Part two. But, for me, there's a lot coming up around that. And I'm grateful that, now being 50, I'm finally having these awarenesses. What worked for me, what didn't work for me? What's out of alignment, what's not? What's my truth? Because I did see everything as woo-woo. My judgement - and I was never going to go there, I was never going to look at that - and I'm realizing that's my discomfort with connecting to myself. Jo Scheffelmaier  It's a good one. Lori Bean  It's a good one. I'm so grateful for you today. I'm so grateful for you. I think you're gonna change a lot of lives, my friend, and I love you for that. Jo Scheffelmaier  Love you too. Thank you. I love being here. Lori Bean  You're welcome. Jo Scheffelmaier  It makes me so happy. Lori Bean  We'll chat soon. Bye.

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin welcome Jadine Hertz - Yoga Instructor, Birth Worker & Intuitive Life Coach - and Dr. Megan Mankow - Acupuncturist & Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine - to the podcast to talk about all the ways new mothers can seek holistic care through pregnancy and postnatal healing.Jadine and Dr. Megan discuss all the pressures moms feel after birth, from when to return to sex to breastfeeding to postpartum depression. They detail how each of their areas of expertise can help women navigate the expectations placed on them as mothers and assist in building support and a community to connect with. Lori and Alyssa share stories from their own pregnancy and postnatal experiences and express how a community like the one they are building at Maliya would have been beneficial.Dr. Megan introduces the philosophy of zuò yuè zi, which translates roughly to 'sitting the moon', from Chinese medicine, which encourages 40 days of rest and bonding for new mothers. She explains that while this can't often be done for 40 days, the idea of self care for mothers is vital. Jadine explains the ways in which pregnancy yoga is designed specifically to support the changes in bodies as they expand for the baby, and details why it's so important to seek specific pregnancy and postnatal care. The women are very focused on creating a strong community of acupuncture, yoga, mums, and core support for all stages of birth.About Jadine Hertz:Jadine Hertz is an intuitive soul coach and yoga instructor who founded Jade Tree Healing. She began yoga with hopes that the practice would help her heal the panic attacks she was suffering from. When yoga did help heal the panic attacks, she became passionate about wellbeing and the benefits of yoga and dreamed of one day sharing the benefits with others.At the age of 19 Jadine found the courage to backpack Bali & Australia on her own. She continued her connection with holistic modalities by dabbling in different styles of yoga, meditation, and energy healing in the various locations she visited.After her “walkabout”, Jadine knew that she wanted to spend most of her time supporting women with their wellbeing. In 2017 she became accredited after taking a 200 hour Yoga Teacher Training through the Canadian Yoga Alliance. She started my own business as a Yoga Instructor and Holistic Therapist in the United Kingdom. Jadine is a gentle and nurturing instructor who guides you into awareness of your body and energy as you move on your mat.Many of her connections were supporting pregnant women and women going through IVF, as she collaborated with a Fertility Acupuncturist. From those connections she was inspired to support clients on a deeper level, which led her to sign up for the 85 hour Prenatal & Postnatal yoga teacher training. Since launching her Prenatal Yoga Program, Jadine has supported numerous women with their pregnancies and child birth preparation.About Dr. Megan Mankow:Megan Mankow completed her schooling at the Canadian Institute of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Calgary, AB. She learned about the many aspects that contribute to health while earning the title of Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Registered Acupuncturist. She has always had a passion for healthcare and helping people feel their best, most aligned self.Megan gravitates to helping people in areas of their life that are often left in the shadows such as sexual, mental and digestive well-being. All parts of a person deserve to be healed and celebrated. Megan is a trauma informed practitioner who understands the complexity and unique differences between each person.Megan will meet you wherever you are on your wellness journey to give you the opportunity to gently heal and allow your true essence to shine through. When she is not working with patients, she replenishes herself by hiking, foraging, and learning about plants. She loves challenging herself to use new ingredients in cooking and to create unique flavour combinations.-- Maliya: website | instagram | facebookDr. Megan Mankow | Acupuncturist & Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine: about | linkedinJadine Hertz | Intuitive Life Coach & Yoga Instructor with Jade Tree Healing: website | instagram TranscriptionAlyssa Rabin  00:58Today we're talking about new mamas. Everything about women and how they feel and expectations and - Lori Bean  01:12- how to navigate the first few months after having a baby, and what you're being told, compared to what is reality. Yeah. What is in alignment, how you're feeling, support, unrealistic expectations- Alyssa Rabin  01:33-which are many- Lori Bean  01:34-which are many. Alyssa Rabin  01:34Yeah. Lori Bean  01:35So we will give the floor... introduce yourself, ladies. Jadine. Jadine Hertz  01:42Hi, everyone. I'm Jadine. So, like Alyssa explained, I'm an intuitive soul coach. And I'm also a yoga instructor, and my specialty is prenatal and postnatal yoga. So today, as me and Megan connect here sharing all of our wisdom from our different practices, we are focused on helping mums really come back into their empowerment and trusting their body and themselves as they navigate this new journey into motherhood. Lori Bean  02:14Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, Dr. Megan Mankow  02:16I love the way you put that. I think there's so many expectations that, like, okay, you had baby, and then all of a sudden all the focus shifts to baby and mom is just left in the dark. And she was just, she just created a life, a portal, like, she's just so open, vulnerable. And we're not giving her time to, like, really care for herself. And there's just not enough emphasis on that I'm finding people are ready to get back into physical activity, they want to start going out and... Alyssa Rabin  02:47Or that's the expectation. Dr. Megan Mankow  02:48Yeah, maybe not a want. Alyssa Rabin  02:51Yes. Dr. Megan Mankow  02:51But they feel pressured to. Alyssa Rabin  02:53Your doctor says after four weeks, you should be doing this and this. Well, why can't I? Why don't I feel like I want to? Why do I feel like my vagina is still traumatized? Lori Bean  03:04Yeah. So, Megan, when they come to you for acupuncture after they've given birth, what are you seeing that their expectations are? Dr. Megan Mankow  03:14Well, I think a big thing that we see is postpartum depression. And so in Chinese medicine, we look at it as the blood in the body, it provides nutrients to the brain, and that's like where the mind goes to rest in Chinese medicine. That's the theory. And so after giving birth, you put so much energy into it, and you lose a lot of blood. And so if there's not enough nourishment, then that's where we can see depression pop up. So that's a lot of what I treat. And yeah, there's actually this statistic that I was reading that with post partum depression, they were prescribed Prozac, and that was 90.5% effective. And then they did another study and people who did some sort of psychological intervention and acupuncture there was a 90.7% efficacy rate. Alyssa Rabin  04:02No way. Dr. Megan Mankow  04:03Yeah, so very similar. But with acupuncture and psychological intervention, there's no side effects. Lori, I believe you were saying, like, Prozac, it's very addicting. Lori Bean  04:12Yeah, it's hard to get off of, yeah. I had my daughter 26 years ago. And I was not aware at all, at the time, of any additional services, modalities, practitioners, whatever, you went to your doctor, and they put you on medication. And that was it. I don't think side effects were even discussed. And it took me years and years and years to get off of those medications. And I probably did need counseling and a whole other level of support. Alyssa Rabin  04:43But don't get us wrong. We do totally support medications when it's necessary. Yeah. Lori Bean  04:49100%. And it was, but I didn't have the option to explore other services. And I don't know what my approach would have been at the time. And it helped. But this is sort of an interesting way to look at a different way. For care. Dr. Megan Mankow  05:10So I think that's what want to talk about, is how can you care for yourself so that these issues aren't popping up. Really, it's the most selfless act you can do to care for yourself as a new mother. Because in turn, if you are healthy and stable, then you can provide for baby and community. That's why we want to talk about an ayurvedic medicine and traditional Chinese medicine. Interestingly enough, they have the same theory. In Chinese medicine, it's called the zuò yuè zi, which translates - there's a lot of translations - but I like the one 'sitting the moon'. And so it's just resting for 40 days. That's, traditionally, they had in-laws and relatives come in, cook food, clean house, and mom's only job was to bond with baby. Alyssa Rabin  05:56Wow. Oh, can I just interject really quickly, because nowadays, the 40 days for the mother is spent cleaning the house so that people can come over and visit the baby and see how you're doing and put on your makeup and excuse yourself to nurse even though you want to take two to three hours to do that. You have to do it as quickly as possible. It is.... oh, and you're cooking for all of these guests as well. Lori Bean  06:22Yeah. And nourishing your husband and nourishing your other children. Pretending everything is.... Alyssa Rabin  06:28Yay. Dr. Megan Mankow  06:29Yeah, yeah. Alyssa Rabin  06:30And it's so not. Dr. Megan Mankow  06:33And so we realize that in today's society, that's not always doable. We can't have relatives, I mean, many of us probably don't want our in-laws to stay with us for 40 days. And that's okay. So yeah, Jadine, like, what do you think people can do to kind of help nourish themselves and bring in this idea of, like, the tradition, but support? Jadine Hertz  06:55I would say start thinking about solutions to work around that and focusing on 'okay, well, how can I support myself, what's available to me here? What resources, externally, do I have within my community, and what's available in the community'. And then that's another thing we're talking about, because there isn't much out there for mums to go and connect with one another in a space. And really just bond and vent about what's going on. So that's the idea we're coming up with, that Maliya is creating a space for moms to do that. Alyssa Rabin  07:30And as well, I know, many of you out there, do not have in-laws or family or anyone really, really close to you living in the same place that you live. Or even have the ability to take all this time off to come and help you. So absolutely, we need women to come together to help each other when they are in these situations. Lori Bean  07:56Yeah, and normalize the experience of having had a baby and what your new experience with your spouse is. The exhaustion you know, the nursing issues, how you're navigating your baby with colic, feeling alone, feeling isolated. Now 25 years ago this wasn't even a conversation. But I remember going to the park - so I had a newborn and a two and a half year old - I was exhausted, but I just wanted to go to the park hoping another mom was going to be there. So I can just talk to them. And maybe they could confide in me that they're having a similar experience. I mean, even though that wasn't something, we didn't really talk about postpartum depression. But just to have that connection, because my husband was working, my parents weren't available. I had no extended family. And so we need to change that. And the fact that that is still showing up today, 25 years later, is a little bit shocking to me. Jadine Hertz  08:56When we do connect, and we do come together, to approach this space, with a space of compassion, and non-judgment. Alyssa Rabin  09:05Absolutely. Jadine Hertz  09:06Because then that's another thing we're going to talk about, is there's this battle out there of opinion and what I've noticed with the mums that I connect with, with my pregnancy and postnatal classes, the theme is the same. And this theme is there's this feeling of not feeling enough. That mother guilt. That am I doing enough for my baby? Am I doing enough for my family? Am I doing this right? I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what's right. I don't know what's wrong. There's so many options out there and there's so many different opinions and there's this divide. And that situation really separates us from ourselves. It takes us out of confidence. It takes us out of alignment. And then, and we don't operate from a space of 'No, I know what's best, I trust myself, I trust my journey', we operate from a space of fear and questioning and really looking externally for so much validation. Alyssa Rabin  10:12And you were saying, like, knowing yourself and following yourself, I think doctor says you can start working out at four weeks, you are expected to start working out at four weeks. That doesn't work. It does not work for everyone. And why can't we listen to our true selves and what our body is telling us. Jadine Hertz  10:37Mmhm. And things take time. The biggest message that I put out there is give yourself space, give yourself time, rest, honor, check in. And then that's another question. Well, how do we know how to do that? Where do we learn to do that? Because that's really something that isn't taught out there, we got to find that. So that would be connecting with with an acupuncturist, with somebody in the holistic work, with pregnancy postnatal yoga, like going into that community where that option is available. It's like, okay, I'm going to tap into this. Lori Bean  11:12Some of the expectations that are still happening today, when a woman does, uh, you know, she has a baby, and she has a conversation with her doctor... like, back in the day, it was at six weeks you can start having sex, you can start working out pretty much right away. You should and can only be nursing. If you're not nursing, you're doing something wrong. I'm not sure if those are the same values and expectations of today. If they are it's going to blow my mind a little bit. Jadine Hertz  11:41It's the same. Dr. Megan Mankow  11:41Yeah. Yeah. Something big that I want to talk about is the sex at six weeks. And I think that sometimes when we're in this state, we just had a baby, doctor says, okay, like, go ahead, you can have sex at six weeks. Sometimes partner, they're like, 'Okay, great. Like, we've been waiting for so long, like, let's go for it.' And then also if you're in a state of, like, fight or flight, you just had a baby, mom feels pressure to, like, 'Okay, well, if they said it's okay, then I guess I'm going to do it.' But I think it's important to maybe have this conversation before you have baby with your partner. Like, look, I really want to, like, listen and honor my body. And even when the doctor says it's okay to have sex, then we will have a conversation on how we are both feeling. And just to set up that expectation with partner, with yourself, this is not a deadline. We do not have to have sex at six weeks, that's when we can start the conversation about how we are feeling. And when we maybe want to start rolling that part of our lives out. Alyssa Rabin  12:40That's amazing. Because in my experience - my first one was 16 years ago - I had a very, very trying birth, ended up in an emergency C section. And I was actually sick, I got an infection, so I didn't heal properly, I would say about four or five months. And if my husband looked at me at that time, and was like, 'Come on baby', I would have been like, 'Get out of my face'. I was just not myself. I was getting over - I shouldn't say the trauma of having a baby - but the recovery trauma of having a baby, of having a C section, and yeah. Dr. Megan Mankow  13:26Well, and maybe we can change what our definition of sex is at this period. Like you still want that sensual connection with your partner. Maybe you give each other oil body massages, and just like really connect in a different way. I think there's lots of opportunity. This doesn't have to be like, okay, we can't have sex, like, I'm frustrated. There doesn't have to be sexual frustration. But if there's a conversation, maybe we can change the way we connect, and that can develop our sex life even further down the line, we start using these techniques. Alyssa Rabin  14:00Right, that's brilliant. But what you said about having the conversation before you have baby is huge. Lori Bean  14:09Yes, yes. Jadine Hertz  14:12That's another thing that I see with couples. Because it's, you are now bringing up a being from two different family values and belief systems here. Then there's also the working out the schedule and the routine. Even options, too, when it comes to taking care of baby. Like, let's say a baby's got constipation and eczema. It's like, okay, well, the opinion could be well, we're just gonna go to the doctor. But then another partner might be like, well, we went to the doctor, we feel we're not really getting anything. What if we go and try this? And then the other partner's like, no, no, no, doctors the only way, or vice versa? Like, you know, I'm not saying that the doctor is bad. The doctors are fantastic, but there's so many different options out there now and the conversation of how we're going to do this together needs to be had, it needs to be communicated. Lori Bean  15:08And you actually don't know what that's going to look like until you're in that position. Because you don't, you might have conversations around parenting before you have the baby. But actually, once the baby's there, it's a, it's a difficult thing to navigate. Jadine Hertz  15:22It's a very difficult thing. Lori Bean  15:24It's a different experience. Dr. Megan Mankow  15:25And I think that translates into breastfeeding as well. I'd really like to talk about the expectations around that. We're so bombarded with the messaging that breast is best. And sure, like, maybe you should try to breastfeed, and you want to, and you've had this conversation with your partner that you're going to breastfeed. But every birthing experience is different, that doesn't work for everyone. And don't... stress is just, it causes so much dysfunction in the body. And the more you stress over something and try to force it, the more dysfunction you're going to have. It's probably, you're gonna be frustrated, your breasts might be more tender, like that's all symptoms that we see are caused by stress in Chinese medicine. And so, yeah, me and Jadine just want to talk about, like, give yourself a break. You need to do what your body is telling you to do. If you can't breastfeed that's okay. Alyssa Rabin  16:20Or don't want to. Jadine Hertz  16:22Yes, if you don't want to, that's okay. Lori Bean  16:25Does the stress of the mom, if she's trying to navigate nursing and it's not working, does that translate to the baby? Jadine Hertz  16:32Absolutely. The energy is connected. Baby feels intuitively what mom is feeling. And on an energetic scale, too, there's still an energetic cord that's attached for a year. So whatever mom's feeling baby is picking up on. Alyssa Rabin  16:47Wow. Dr. Megan Mankow  16:49And if breastfeeding becomes this, like, frustrating, traumatic time with baby, like baby can feel that. So let's just try to make feeding a nice process. You're gonna have to do it for so long, like, how can you make it work for both of you? And you can have goals, but that's okay. Like, if it... things change once baby actually comes. You sometimes have to throw your expectations out the window. Lori Bean  17:12So what is the narrative today about breast milk and breast is best? Is that the truth? Because I remember back in the day that your baby was going, the brain wasn't going to develop properly, and they weren't going to get the right nourishment and nutrients- Alyssa Rabin  17:30- autoimmune disorders are going to happen- Lori Bean  17:32Yeah, if you weren't nursing. And I had a lot of difficulty nursing - I had to stop nursing with my first one at three weeks, the second one at six weeks - and the terror, probably for the longevity of their childhood, that they weren't going to be all of these things, this fully developed human, probably lasted a really long time. And today, they're pretty much fine. Alyssa Rabin  18:00So, pretty amazing actually. Lori Bean  18:02So what is the story? Is it still the same narrative? Dr. Megan Mankow  18:06Well, I think this can translate into a lot of health advice that we're given. Yes, breast milk does have amazing properties, it does help build up immunity. And there is lots of research on the autoimmune conditions that can pop up. It is great, but it's kinda like anything, any other health advice you get. Sometimes you have to take what works and what doesn't. Like, is it any different than if we microwave all the plastic and like all of these particles? So sometimes you have to make sacrifices, you got to choose where you're going, where are you going to fight your battles? Alyssa Rabin  18:39So let's say I am trying to nurse and I'm having a really tough time of it. Can you girls help with that? Jadine Hertz  18:48I would say that, for me, the help that I can offer is for the emotional journey of this. So supporting mum in that emotion that comes up of not feeling enough, or grieving the process of wanting to breastfeed but can't.  Dr. Megan Mankow  19:40Yeah, I mean first, like, I would recommend a lactation consultant, they can do wonders. And sometimes it takes a while to find someone you connect with and that can really help you. Personally what I can help with is if there's an insufficient supply of milk, then I can help with nutrition and acupuncture to help increase that supply, as well as like mastitis, I can help with inflammation and breast tissue. Lori Bean  20:13Yeah, we did, do they still do that? I had cabbage leaves and binding. Alyssa Rabin  20:19I didn't do the binding. I had cabbage leaves. Lori Bean  20:21I did, then I ended up with mastitis. But there was no, like, solution. You just got sick and suffered through it. This feels like it was 1000 years ago. Dr. Megan Mankow  20:36Well, yeah, cuz you keep saying, like, I hope it's changed, I hope it's changed. But, like, it really hasn't and I guess that's part of why we're doing this, right? To create the change and the knowledge and just give people options. Lori Bean  20:47Yeah, and support. And normalize it. I mean, we did not talk about any of this stuff. But if this is still happening, then there's a high amount of women that are still going through this experience. And I think that community piece is so important. And if we can support women here with offering post natal groups and post partum support. And we'd love to hear from women, as well, as to what they need and what they're looking for. Alyssa Rabin  21:19And as well as prenatal. Because I found that I did some prenatal classes and I had these beautiful women who literally supported me. And we were all giving birth at the same time and having these new lives at a same time. So we could, like, commiserate with everybody and be like, my mother in law's coming over today and I don't want her to. So yeah, prenatal for sure. Can you practitioners help with prenatal as well? Dr. Megan Mankow  21:54Yeah, prenatal with acupuncture, I can usually recommend people start coming in at 36 weeks to prep the body, we can get the cervix ready. And even if you have like an induction date, there are points that I can do that can help get the body more open. And so we call it, like, encouraging labor. And so kind of start those contractions. Alyssa Rabin  22:17Can you do acupuncture while you're...? Dr. Megan Mankow 22:19Definitely. Alyssa Rabin  22:21Really? Dr. Megan Mankow 22:21I'm glad you brought that up. I forget that I should make that more known. But yes, acupuncture is very safe during pregnancy. There are certain points that we avoid, but we, like, I'm very well trained in that. So we do lots of prenatal work. I helped with people that have had, like, recurrent miscarriages, we'll do acupuncture when they are pregnant. I usually recommend starting before to help build everything up. But then even when they do get a positive tes, I do lots of points to help support that. And keep baby, yeah, settled in the stomach. And then the nausea and vomiting too. Lori Bean  22:58You can support that? Dr. Megan Mankow  22:59Yeah. Lori Bean  22:59Okay. That's a whole other level right there. Dr. Megan Mankow  23:01Yeah. Yeah. So acupuncture is more than safe for pregnancy. There's just points that we're trying to avoid. And that's kind of that. Alyssa Rabin  23:08Wow. And Jadine, for prenatal, what are your views? What can you do? Jadine Hertz  23:17Pregnancy yoga. Go to a pregnancy yoga because you get the support not just physically, but you get it emotionally, mentally, and childbirth prep and resources and all the support you're looking for throughout pregnancy when it comes to community. Yeah, and another thing, too, is we think, oh yeah, we're stretching to get ready to birth baby. Well, the thing is, is your body's already got you covered there, because when you're pregnant, your body releases a hormone called relaxin, which means that you are actually more flexible than you've ever been. Your muscles and your joints are more supple. So in pregnancy yoga, we actually focus less on the flexibility piece, and more on the strength piece, because now we need to bring stability back into the body from this suppleness. And when we come into this suppleness, that's when you start to experience back pain, shoulder pain, pelvic girdle pain. Everything shifts because of how you're carrying yourself. So in these classes, we focus on the poses that brings stability into your body, bringing awareness to how you're holding yourself - because it's completely different than before, especially with the change in weight - and we help ease the aches and pains that comes from that. Alyssa Rabin  25:01Will that help afterwards as well to get my six packs back?...... I know it's like a- Lori Bean  25:21-five and a half. Your five and a half pack back. Jadine Hertz  25:25When it comes to the core, totally different ballgame here. So when you're pregnant, your core, it stretches, it's got to, you got to create room for baby, everything's shifting inside and moving around so that baby can grow in there. So in the yoga classes, we focus on very gentle core engagement, just to keep safe within the poses in the stability, but also being mindful of baby. There's nothing we can do core-wise within pregnancy other than to promote the stability. When it comes to postnatal, what we're focusing on is rebuilding the core. So your core is actually made up of several layers. It's not just that five and a half pack. That's the most, like, surface layer, but we want to go deep, we want to go into the TA muscles. And you can actually - it's really interesting - but your core exercise postnatal is as simple as breathing. Because when you move your diaphragm that is a core contraction. Alyssa Rabin  26:23Wow. Jadine Hertz  26:24So the recommendation that I would say to moms is if you're focused on rebuilding your core, I would focus on breathing, you can do that one to two days after you give birth. While you're feeding baby, sit there, focus on your breath work, really expanding your diaphragm and contracting and working into that TA muscle. Then we work into gentle, gentle core movements that are very subtle to start to rebuild that deepest layer, and then work forward up. We don't start doing intense core exercises - and even then they wouldn't be that intense - until after four months of giving birth. So it's a long process. And it's a necessary process. Because there is one thing to watch out for. When you're stretching your belly while baby's growing, you have a separation that takes place, and it's called diastasis recti. So what happens is, you take a look at that six pack that you've got there, and there is that space in the middle, right, that runs up above your belly button below your belly button. Okay, so that space separates a lot more, natural for that separation take place, however, there are poses and exercises to avoid because you can further that separation. And if you further it, you're looking... Lori Bean  27:40decreasing stability. Jadine Hertz  27:42Well you're actually looking at a, like, a four finger separation here that is not repairable unless you get surgery according to the doctors. So that's when I would recommend like a physio or working with somebody that can help bring that back. So we want to avoid that. So even going into exercise classes that aren't pregnancy focused, is a huge thing for me to get out there for moms because- Lori Bean  28:05-you can injure yourself. Jadine Hertz  28:06If you're going to somebody who has no idea how to modify for pregnancy, you might be going into a class where they're going to further that separation, they have no idea that's taking place. Alyssa Rabin  28:17What about C sections? Jadine Hertz  28:18Okay, so for C sections, which part are you asking about about C sections? Alyssa Rabin  28:23To start post recovery, I guess. Jadine Hertz  28:25Okay, so for caesarean section. So in pregnancy, I actually have this video that I created in my membership with the yoga classes, and it's all for preparation of caesarean section. Because some mums, they they choose caesarean section, right, or they don't have the choice but it's necessary for many, many reasons that can come up within pregnancy. So there's the emotional piece, the mental piece, of supporting the caesarean section, especially if there's a resistance that is coming up. But also physically, there are yoga poses there to help prepare your body for that incision that is about to take place, which is focusing on the fascia and the connection with the pelvic floor muscles, and the core. Because your core is connected to your pelvic floor health, which is another thing I focus on in all aspects of pregnancy that support childbirth. But coming back to the caesarean section, going into post natal when it comes to the healing, that's another thing is, again, tapping into the breath work. And focusing on that. When we do the yoga poses, too, there's poses to avoid because we don't want to open that incision. We want to give that space to heal. Alyssa Rabin  29:33Absolutely. Lori Bean  29:34I just had this weird a-ha, too, about, you know, the breathing that you just presented us with. Because when you're really pregnant and you're breathing, you're really breathing from your chest, right? So probably - this is, I don't know what I'm thinking is - you'd have to really re-navigate your breath. So now you're breathing back to pre-pregnancy, where you're starting to breathe again from your diaphragm. So that's probably a whole other process on its own. Jadine Hertz  30:06I'm glad you brought that up. What I've learned in my training and connecting with mamas, postnatal, chest gripping takes place, abdomen gripping takes place, so we're breathing into our chest still. And when we breathe into her chest, we're not breathing down into our belly, therefore we're not exercising our core. But we're also placing pressure on our pelvic floor, more pressure than we need to take, we need to place because we want it to heal. So what we do is, one thing to watch out for with chest gripping, is I would look at you, you would take an inhale in, and if I see you lift your shoulders to get a full breath in, you're chest gripping. Alyssa Rabin  30:49Interesting. And Megan, Megan, what about acupuncture? Is that good for post caesarean section? Dr. Megan Mankow  30:57There are things we can do for scar tissue. But really, it takes a long time. And so if your scars really bother you, acupuncture can help with that. But I'm kind of the opinion that ,you know, it's just a symbol of, like, the process you went through. So I will help you if you want support in that. I think, again, yeah, just give yourself a break. Like your body doesn't have to look exactly how it did before because you are not the same person as you were before you gave birth. Lori Bean  31:26I love that. Jadine Hertz  31:27You birthed yourself and your baby. There's two births that take place. Lori Bean  31:33That was beautiful. Thank you ladies so much. 

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin welcome Registered Psychologist Erin Bonner back to the podcast to take everyone on a deep dive into psychology and how therapy works. Erin breaks down when diagnosis is useful in selecting a therapeutic modality, how different therapies treat behaviors and emotions, and how to go about selecting the right therapist for your needs.Erin believes everyone should know something about therapy, modalities, types of therapists, and how to find a therapist. To that end, Erin details exactly what her speciality - clinical counseling psychology - means and what modalities her training specifically focused on. She explains the differences between clinical and subclinical and what the idea ‘diagnosis directs treatment' looks like in terms of the type of therapy that would be best for an individual. Lori and Alyssa explore the differences between DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) and CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) with Erin. They discuss the CBT triangle, what a DBT skill like the TIPP skill would assist with, and how important personal connection with a therapist is to effective therapy. This episode addresses your brain, your thoughts, and any feeling or trauma you may have that a psychologist or therapist can help with. This imparts important knowledge on how to choose therapy that is best for you.About Erin Bonner:Erin Bonner is a Registered Psychologist with a Master's of Arts in Counselling Psychology. She is passionate about her role in helping others navigate their individual paths towards wellness. In her 20s she tragically lost her younger brother and then her mother shortly after. Through her own therapeutic journey, she discovered her calling to help others work on understanding and processing emotions to achieve personal growth and well-being.Erin is trained in Cognitive and Dialectical Behavioural Therapies, Prolonged Exposure, Exposure with Response Prevention, Emotion-Focused and Mindfulness-Based Therapy. She specializes in treating depression, anxiety, PTSD, cPTSD, ADHD, emotion dysregulation, grief, OCD, and in helping individuals learn to love themselves and develop strong relationships with the people in their lives. She also offers Sport Psychology to equestrian athletes on an individual or group basis.Erin believes in holistic wellness and that integrating various modalities of treatment enhances the benefits of therapy. She encourages her clients to be curious about how they can cultivate lifestyle changes to think, emote and behave in ways that foster personal wellbeing and contentment; this is paramount in her approach to therapy.In addition to working with adults, she has a special interest, passion and gift for working with adolescents aged 14 and older.Resources discussed in this episode:TIPP skillCBT triangle-- Maliya: website | instagram | facebookErin Bonner | Registered Psychologist: website | linkedin TranscriptionErin Bonner  00:59Hi guys. Alyssa Rabin  01:01How are you? Erin Bonner  01:02I'm good. I'm excited to chat. Lori Bean  01:06Let's do it. We need some answers to the questions we're getting. Alyssa Rabin  01:11Totally. Erin Bonner  01:13Maybe I should start with contrary to popular belief, therapists don't know everything. We are all work-in-progresses ourselves. Lori Bean  01:20Oh. Alyssa Rabin  01:21That's not what you told me. Erin Bonner  01:22I know. You know the... speak with confidence and then everybody just believes everything you say. Lori Bean  01:30Maybe I should become a clinical psychologist. Erin Bonner  01:36I think it's important, though, to kind of know about therapy, about, you know, what kind of therapist fits for you and kind of how to maybe even choose a therapist. Because I was talking to a new client and they were wildly overwhelmed with just the process of finding, like, who the heck can help me. And so I think maybe we can uncover some of that because it's overwhelming, Alyssa Rabin  02:00Totally and completely. Finding the right fit and feeling comfortable to pour your heart out. And absolutely. So why don't you first tell us, what specifically do you specialize in? Erin Bonner  02:15My specialty is in clinical counseling psychology. And what that means is that my training is in modalities that are empirically supported for the treatment of mental disorders. So I am trained in treatments to treat borderline personality disorder, major anxiety disorder, depression, OCD, PTSD. And so a lot of the training that I have, really is designed for individuals with kind of clinical disorders, and anybody who might even be subclinical, or anybody who just is highly emotionally sensitive and emotions run their life. Alyssa Rabin  02:53What's subclinical? Erin Bonner  02:54Subclinical means you might not actually meet diagnostic criteria, according to, you know, the set diagnostic criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. And that emotion pattern, you know, depression, anxiety, trauma experiences, they're pretty controlling in your life, that we as psychologists have to have, you know, a gradient. You either meet criteria for diagnosis or you don't. And if you have four out of nine criteria for something and not five out of nine criteria, where five out of nine is that threshold, having four out of nine is still pretty life altering. Lori Bean  03:30So if you recognize, like, let's say you had a trauma that's still affecting you today, you don't know if it's PTSD, you're just not functioning. Erin Bonner  03:37Yeah. Lori Bean  03:38It's controlling your life. Alyssa Rabin  03:39And even if it's not a trauma, if you don't recognize exactly what is going on, but why are you feeling anxious? Why are you feeling depressed? Why are you feeling all of these emotions? Erin Bonner  03:50Yeah. And I think often diagnosis, it directs treatment. And so sometimes we need a diagnosis before we embark on a treatment, because, let's face it, there are lots of different modalities out there. And they're all useful in one way or another for individuals who they fit for. And not every type of therapy is going to fit for every person. So sometimes, you gotta get the diagnosis first. You gotta kind of know what you're working with before you choose a path down therapy, because it's exhausting to go down a whole therapeutic pathway and feel like it doesn't do a darn thing. It just costs you a whole bunch of money, and time and energy and effort. And so sometimes the diagnosis is really, really important to start with. Lori Bean  04:30So where do you get the diagnosis? Erin Bonner  04:31So diagnosis typically will come from either a psychiatrist, or there are psychologists out there who specialize in assessment, it's not actually something I do. I have some solid familiarity, with the treatments that I offer, to kind of do general assessment, so I can assess for PTSD, I can assess for OCD. And I don't have as much training as someone who specializes in assessment would have. And so if I meet with a client and I think, you know what, I think we got to know what's going on here from kind of a diagnostic perspective first, I'll typically refer out. And I have a couple of referral sources that I think are really fantastic and they know their stuff really, really well. And so I'll say, 'hey, this is important to do so you aren't wasting your time'. I want to help every single person that comes through my doors, and if I don't offer the treatment that fits for that person, I can't as well as somebody who does offer that treatment. Alyssa Rabin  05:23So let's say I am feeling depressed and anxious. And I don't have a diagnosis. Do I have to go get that first to come to see you? Erin Bonner  05:33No, not at all. Alyssa Rabin  05:34Okay. Erin Bonner  05:34As the, you know, clinical professional in the room, it's a bit my job to go, 'hey, I think this is really important' or, the other piece, yes diagnosis directs treatment. And as a therapist, as a clinical counseling therapist, I am very much treating the symptoms. Yes, there are these diagnostic labels. And all the diagnostic label means is you're experiencing all of these symptoms in a way that's altering your life. Alyssa Rabin  05:58Interesting. Erin Bonner  06:00And so that's my job. To do some assessment. This is why a first session often feels a little 21 questioning. I try not to make it as 21 questioning as possible, and really have it be a conversation, but there is, over the first couple of sessions, a bit of assessment that I'm doing, to kind of conceptualize how does what I do fit for a client. Alyssa Rabin  06:19As well - actually, before this, you and I were talking about connection. Erin Bonner  06:25Yeah. Alyssa Rabin  06:26How important connection is between the client and their psychologist? Lori Bean  06:31Yeah. Erin Bonner  06:31Absolutely. I like to think about that chemistry factor, when it comes to choosing a psychologist, that you kind of want - and not in a weird, creepy way - you kind of want the same feeling if you go on a first date, and you're like, 'whoa, that was great'. Whether they were, like, nurturing or kind or, like, you just had that ease of conversation. You kind of want that feeling with a therapist in some way, shape, or form because, I mean, this is somebody you're gonna be spilling your guts to. You're going to be very vulnerable with this human. And so if you don't have that kind of spark of connection, it's really hard to be vulnerable. It's really hard to be candid, it's really hard to just show up and go with what happens in a session. And so I think, I mean, there's research that backs it up that there's a big statistic of - I don't know, I don't know the exact number - but about 60% of the game is finding a therapist you connect with. And so that's, you know, you got to understand and feel like they're their theory fits for you. You got to feel like their personality fits for you. I know, I'm a pretty conversational, I'd say casual, conversational style therapist. I fully believe in the power of a therapeutic F bomb. And so that's gonna fit for some people and it's not gonna fit for others. Lori Bean  06:38That fits for me. Erin Bonner  06:57And so I think that's a huge part of the battle which, absolutely, it makes finding a therapist overwhelming and challenging. Alyssa Rabin  07:54Which is why it's so amazing that you do offer free virtual consultation. It's like a 15 minute consultation. So you can see the person face to face and sort of get that energy. And see if it is a match, which I just think is brilliant. Erin Bonner  08:10I think it's important that I know therapy is expensive. And I know that people are investing time, energy, money, emotions into doing therapy with me. And so at least if they have that thought of, like, I'm kind of interested in speaking to her again, before they, you know, shell out that that fee for the first session, I think is important. And it's something that I really I like to do because I'm a human too. And we get in a session and our therapeutic or conversational selves don't fit? It's uncomfortable for everybody. Alyssa Rabin  08:43Yeah, absolutely. Lori Bean  08:46So what are some of the - do you call them processes that you use? Erin Bonner  08:51Yeah. So theories or modalities. Or processes, absolutely. So I would classify myself as someone who falls into the category of behaviorist. And so what that means is, all of the theories that backup my practice, that I'm really pulling from when I'm doing therapy, have to do with human behavior. It's one of kind of the, I think there's six kind of different categories or genres. Yeah, I like that word. So I'm a behavioral therapist. And so my training is in dialectical behavior therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, I can tell you what those are in a minute. And then a lot of the exposure based treatments that I use, so prolonged exposure to treat PTSD, exposure with response prevention for the treatment of OCD, any, like, mindfulness based therapies that are really behaviorally mindfulness based therapies, emotion focused, there is this behavioral element that I bring. Lori Bean  09:44Okay, so let's say - Alyssa Rabin  09:46- you're revisiting - Lori Bean  09:48- you're re- yeah, that's the word you use. Revisit. So what if it's something like, maybe it's something you've repressed? Erin Bonner  09:55Yeah. Lori Bean  09:56Or something that happened a long time ago as a kid and you do don't really remember. How do you revisit something like that? Erin Bonner  10:04I like that question. Because I think we have this urge, if we know there's trauma, or there's, like, a question mark about where there's trauma, we want to figure it out, we want to dive in and do the thing and heal ourselves. And my approach, that's the goal, the goal is to have this kind of holistic healing, and sometimes we have to train our brain how the heck to do that before we actually have the ability to do revisiting. And a big part of my training is in dialectical behavior therapy, which is a very behavior focused, it's probably the most behavior focused type of therapy you can get. Alyssa Rabin  10:38Which is, explain it a little bit. Erin Bonner  10:40Yes. So the concept of dialectical behavior therapy - so, DBT - is that it accounts for biology. So it was a therapy designed in the 80s by a gal named Marsha Linehan, who is this brilliant clinical social worker, I believe. Don't come for me, DBT community, if she's a psychologist. I think she's a clinical social worker, she has borderline personality disorder and went through every single therapy in the book. Luckily, she's also unbelievably brilliant. And so she kind of picked and chose parts of therapies that were helpful, even though no one therapy helped her. Lori Bean  11:17Okay. Erin Bonner  11:17And so what DBT does, it accounts for this biology, this emotional sensitivity, and not in a judgmental way. It's, 'hey, if my brain has a brain that feels emotions more intensely than the average person, I am emotionally sensitive'. Me too, absolutely! Alyssa's raising her hand. I absolutely am this way and so probably this is why I've connected with this therapy. Because sometimes our emotion system overrides our ability to think straight, to be, you know, rational, to know what we know. And so DBT really takes that into account in its approach, through behaviors, but also through treatment processing. So in order to revisit sometimes, to revisit the past, which might look like, you know, conversation about past experiences, it might be, you know, formal trauma treatments, like prolonged exposure. It might be understanding self in a different way. And so, you know, cracking into that egg of self identity, and, you know, breaking it down so we can rebuild it up. Sometimes, before we actually can do that, we actually need to train our brain how to experience an emotion first. Lori Bean  12:17Oh, interesting! Erin Bonner  12:19Yeah. Have you ever had an experience or an emotion happens - I'm maybe looking at Alyssa since she did volunteer - have you ever had a moment where an emotion has happened, and all you can see is that emotion? Alyssa Rabin  12:31Yes. Erin Bonner  12:31Like there isn't rational and you're in that place of emotion. And all we can think about is, like, how the heck do we survive this emotion? Alyssa Rabin  12:38Absolutely. Erin Bonner  12:39And our brain has built in some, like, you know, survival mechanisms. You know, the old fight, freeze, or fly. And that absolutely is survival, except it's often not functional in our day to day life. And so unless, you know, we're being attacked by a mountain lion, then yeah, I want to do all of those things. And I want to, you know, biologically save myself. In those moments where we're flooded with emotion, sometimes we need to train our brain to know what to do to be able to get access to the smart part of our brain, to, you know, challenge thoughts or to think critically, or to sit with an emotion without having to do anything about it. Alyssa Rabin  13:16So before you actually dive into the past quote/unquote trauma, you teach your brain first and the person how to deal with those emotions that will probably come about. Erin Bonner  13:32Absolutely. Lori Bean  13:33Oh, that is so interesting! Alyssa Rabin  13:36See, I could be a psychologist. Lori Bean  13:46Brilliant,. Alyssa Rabin  13:46I love that. Erin Bonner  13:47It's neat, because, I mean, we're all unique and different and complex, but we're all pretty simple as humans to. And so the truth is to process past experiences, to heal trauma, we have to do this revisiting. And, you know, there are some people that you know, biologically, genetically got that scratch off ticket that was a winning ticket, and their brain is just able to do it. Hey, let's start off and dive into trauma, great! So this is people that, like, that really benefit from, you know, therapies like maybe some somatic work or EMDR, or even like life coaching. Absolutely. Brain says I know how to do the processing thing, I just gotta have a space to talk about it. Not everybody has that, though. Alyssa Rabin  13:55So then you would, quote/unquote, pass those off to somatic therapists. Erin Bonner  14:35Potentially, yeah. Alyssa Rabin  14:37Interesting. Lori Bean  14:38So what's the difference between DBT and CBT? Erin Bonner  14:41I love that question. This is where my, like, nerdy psychologist comes. And that's a word I've reclaimed, it's not a judgment. I love this part about myself because I get really excited about this because it's not something that people know. We hear all of these different therapies and we hear all these different names and brain goes, 'great, I just want to feel better'. And knowing the therapies is actually a really important part in us choosing, like, what path we're gonna go down, who we're going to connect with. Because if I'm talking about behaviors and then someone is, like, 'what' and I want to talk about, you know, my inner child, it's probably not going to connect. And so knowing a bit about the therapies, I think it's really important. So here - I wish I had like a flowchart I could show everybody as I'm describing this. Lori Bean  15:25PowerPoint. Erin Bonner  15:26Absolutely. Vanna White over here. So everyone listening can just imagine that I'm doing that. I don't have a, you know, a nice dress like Vanna, but - Alyssa Rabin  15:37- but you look really cute. Erin Bonner  15:38Thanks. So the difference between CBT and DBT is that DBT can kind of be thought of as like advanced CBT. And not in a, like, you graduate and you do DBT. Alyssa Rabin  15:48What does DBT stand for? Erin Bonner  15:50Dialectical Behavior Therapy. Alyssa Rabin  15:52Okay. Erin Bonner  15:53So CBT is often what we think about when we think about talk therapy. It's the whole change your thoughts, feel different, do different. Alyssa Rabin  16:02So what does CBT stands for? Erin Bonner  16:05So CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. And so in CBT, often what we're looking at is we're understanding how our behaviors and our thoughts influence each other and how they impact our emotions. There's a diagram that lots of CBT therapists will draw, it's a triangle, it's a really fancy diagram. On the top they'll write T, and on one of the bottom corners, they'll write a B, and on the other corner, they'll write an E or an F for feelings. And so in CBT, there's this triangle, the CBT triangle. And so it's that thoughts impact behaviors impact emotions. And then we'll draw, like, these arrows between all of those three corners and go, okay, emotions impact thoughts and thoughts impact emotions. Thoughts impact behaviors, behaviors impact thoughts. Behaviors and emotions, they both impact each other. And so CBT really is this idea that we want to understand our thoughts first, how do we change thoughts so it impacts our behavior, which then impacts our emotions. And so if we can change that cycle, that feedback cycle, we're probably going to feel better. Alyssa Rabin  17:03Okay, so thoughts such as, like, I'm not worthy. Erin Bonner  17:08Absolutely. A solid shame thought. Uncomfortable. Alyssa Rabin  17:12Absolutely and completely. Lori Bean  17:14Which would impact a behavior of not showing up for something. Erin Bonner  17:20Totally. Or, like, self sabotage or never seeing no, never having boundaries. Absolutely. And so from a cognitive behavioral perspective, we look at that thought and go, 'okay, so how do we challenge that thought, so then behaviors and emotions, so the emotion of shame in that instance, can actually shift'. We're creating new patterns in our brain that change our functioning. And so the difference in DBT is we're actually doing the same thing, but we're going behavior first. And we go behavior first, because - and this is the nerdy part, ready? So when we are in a moment where emotion is really high, whether it's due to our biology, so maybe we're a highly sensitive person, maybe we have something like borderline personality disorder, which I think is a highly stigmatized diagnosis. And it really just means that we're a person with incredibly high emotions. And then we've had an environment where we've been invalidated a lot for it. Maybe with trauma, maybe not. I can get on a soapbox about that and I won't for the sake of today. Or maybe we've had major traumas, maybe it's been childhood trauma that's happened over, you know, years and years. Maybe it's been instances, and it doesn't necessarily matter what type of trauma, it's that it happened. I think sometimes we associate highly sensitive people with, like, sexual trauma. Not necessarily it can be kind of any type of trauma. I often think of even if we're a person that just has a higher than normal, not normal, higher than average emotion experience, the experience of our own emotions can be pretty traumatizing. Alyssa Rabin  18:50Totally, Erin Bonner  18:52if anyone's had a panic attack, yeah, that can be pretty dang traumatizing. And so if we've had this experience, what ends up happening is our brain functioning is altered. We don't have access to the, you know, intelligent front part of our brain, our prefrontal cortex, in the same way. And we really need that part of our brain online all the time to be able to challenge thoughts. So that same task of 'I'm not worthy' or 'I'm not good enough', in CBT, we go alright, we got to challenge that thought. If we have that emotion experience that's pretty high, the likelihood that we have the brainpower to challenge that thought and it stick, isn't there. Lori Bean  19:28So interesting. Erin Bonner  19:30So in DBT, we go - and the people that have invented DBT and turned it into the therapy that is today and the theory that it is today, they take that biology piece into account - and they go 'okay, so maybe we have to do behaviors first to change brain functioning'. So having skills, is the DBT lingo, to be able to address our physiology so we can turn all parts of our brain back on, maybe reduce intensity of emotion slightly, so we have full access to our brain. So we can biologically do that changing thinking thing. Lori Bean  20:01So what does that look like? Give us an example of when you approach a behavior first. Erin Bonner  20:06Yeah. So the classic... and it's often if I, you know, meet somebody and I go, 'okay, we need some skills here, this is maybe more DBT informed type therapy' because even though I'm trained in DBT, I came from a practice that was full fidelity. If somebody needs full fidelity DBT, I will send my client to that clinic, they are fantastic at what they do. If you need full fidelity, the whole shebang of DBT, I don't offer that anymore. I offer DBT informed practice. What that means is, in the first couple of sessions, I would teach somebody a skill, like the TIPP skill, and what the TIPP skill - everything in DBT is acronym - so it stands for Temperature, Intense exercise, Paced breathing, Paired muscle relaxation. So TIPP. So these are four behaviors that a) increase our parasympathetic activation, our body's natural cooldown system. And so there are behaviors that we do that quickly change our physiology, which then impacts our ability to function, and it impacts our ability to access the parts of our brain that we need to be able to, you know, do mindfulness or do distraction or think critically. Lori Bean  20:07So does the client approach this TIPP when they're in a behavior? They're recognizing that they're in an irrational behavior, like let's say they're having a panic attack. Is that considered a behavior? Erin Bonner  21:25Absolutely. Panic attack is a great moment for a skill like the TIPP skill, because we're in that moment, we are flooded with emotion, the emotion is controlling everything we do, and so - Lori Bean  21:37- which is a behavior. Erin Bonner  21:38Right? And so we're in that moment of panic attack, yes, the panic is the emotion but the behaviors might be crying, the behaviors might be avoiding, the behaviors might be, you know, freezing and not being able to function. And so we need something to, like, in the least clinical way knock our brain down a few pegs in a way that doesn't have long term negative consequences. Alyssa Rabin  21:59Okay, and so that you can more or less focus on regulating yourself. Erin Bonner  22:04Exactly. Because it's our survival mechanisms, those built in behaviors that go with intense emotions, our brain comes up with behaviors to try and regulate. This is why we avoid things kind of, you know, pathologically. Or we use substances. Our brain's feeling really dang intense for whatever emotion our brain trends towards, and so, you know, you pop a pill or take some drinks and brain is numbed a little bit for a short period of time. And so I really, I take this stance with every single one of my clients that every behavior that we have identified - hey, I probably got to do something about this behavior, and I got to change it - it's actually serving a function. It's our brain's way of trying to regulate itself in any way that it can, which I take a stance because it doesn't help to, you know, add a layer of shame of like, 'oh, you shouldn't be doing that'. It doesn't help. Alyssa Rabin  22:19You're doing it almost to save yourself from something and that something is what you need to recognize. Erin Bonner  23:01Exactly. Because as humans, we're complex - I say this a lot - we're complex, but yet we're very simple. Or, and we're very simple in that our brain responds to reward and relief. And so if we engage in a behavior that offers us, like, even the tiniest sliver of relief, brain goes 'oh, that helped'. Even if later on it creates chaos. Brain only learns from that, like, immediate moment and so a skill like the TIPP skill is saying, 'wait, I'm gonna forego that, like, moment of relief for something that might actually start helping in the longer term'. Lori Bean  23:35Wow. Erin Bonner  23:36I like to call this TIPP skill my, like, nerdy therapist party trick because I can reduce your heart rate to below resting heart rate in, like, 30 to 60 seconds. Alyssa Rabin  23:44Do it. Erin Bonner  23:48Give me a little bit of space after. Lori Bean  23:51I will attest that Erin has given me that skill when I personally find my nervous system just dysregulated. That kind of feeling where you're very overwhelmed, you almost feel like you want to crawl out of your body, like, you don't, you can't really differentiate between, like, is it anxiety? Is it overwhelm? Is it stress? I'm uncomfortable, I can't process. Alyssa Rabin  24:20There's too much coming down on your brain and your shoulders. Lori Bean  24:23And you literally feel like you want to crawl out of your body. This little tip has been a lifesaver. Erin Bonner  24:31It's cool. It's neat because it's not a skill that is going to change your life. It's not solving all of your life's problems. What it's doing is it's giving you access to your brain in a moment where you might need your brain. It's giving you this window, this window of access that, you know, either we can, you know, do something. So like you said earlier, Alyssa, start regulating emotion with another behavior or thinking different. Or our brain will just go back to being triggered by whatever it was triggered with before. Lori Bean  24:59Wow, amazing. Alyssa Rabin  25:02So I just have a quick question for you. So I know how amazing you are. Erin Bonner  25:07Thank you. Alyssa Rabin  25:08How would I, as a client, choose to do therapy with you? Instead of, like, a somatic therapy, or a life coaching therapy? What would I need to know as a client? Which direction to go in? Erin Bonner  25:27I love that question. And I think there's kind of different parts to it. Part of it's gonna be personality. Alyssa Rabin  25:32Absolutely. We spoke about, yeah, the connection - Erin Bonner  25:35There's a huge statistic. If you have a connection, what the person does, like, it probably matters less. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter at all, it means it probably matters less. Alyssa Rabin  25:45Ah, interesting. Erin Bonner  25:46I don't want to discount, you know, the theory and the type of therapy altogether, because sometimes we just need a different therapy, even if we really liked that person. I know I've had that as therapist where I have this huge connection with a client and I go, 'I think we've reached our limit and you got to find somebody else, because' - Lori Bean  26:03- this approach isn't working. Erin Bonner  26:04Just becasue we like each other, that's not enough in this instance. So it's part of a big part of the picture, but not the whole picture. I think a big part of understanding what therapist is gonna fit for you, is looking into kind of the theory. And you don't have to research it, like, so you're an expert. You got to read about each of the therapies and, like, Google is great for this. Pull up the Wikipedia page. Well, what is the therapy that they offer? What's it all about? And do I kind of like it? Lori Bean  26:34Does it feel in alignment? Erin Bonner  26:35Totally. Does it speak to me? And so I think that piece is important, because, I know if somebody is a psychoanalyst, yes, there's tons of research behind psychoanalytic - that's the whole Freud stuff - if that speaks to somebody, I can tell you right now, you're gonna get 0% of that with me. I don't do it. I don't, it's not what I do as a therapist. And so if that's what speaks to your brain, we can get along and, you know, be buddies in the therapy room, and it's not going to speak to you in the same way. And so knowing kind of what theory pulls you, that's going to be a big part of deciding who you work with. And then the second piece is you you gotta kind of like them. Lori Bean  27:12Yeah, but it doesn't really mean that one is better than the other. Erin Bonner  27:15Absolutely not. Lori Bean  27:16Like I think about somatic therapy, like internal family therapy. You know, reading up about that, I was like, 'oh, this is really interesting, and kind of resonates with me as a person and what I'm in alignment with'. But it doesn't mean that the different therapies cannot approach the same issues, correct? Erin Bonner  27:34Totally. Totally. I think the one difference is, if there are, you know, something like OCD. If there is a clinical diagnosis that you're coming in with, for example, you have OCD, the likelihood that anything but exposure with response prevention is going to help you is just lower. Doesn't mean there's no other option. It means that you want to look for the treatment that is the most empirically supported treatment for your diagnosis. That's where the 'diagnosis directs treatment' idea comes in. And so, yeah, there are certain areas where you've got to be a little bit more choosy about the theory. And, for lots of people, it matters more about what speaks to you, and about that connection with the therapist. And one theory or one therapy doesn't have to solve all of what's going on for you. Maybe there are pieces. This is something that a mentor that I worked with a couple years ago said that he was kind of grappling with, 'well, I want to be able to, like, you know, help everybody that comes to this door, and I want to see their, you know, start to completion'. And as therapists, I think sometimes we have to humble ourselves a little bit. We're not all, like, saviors. Even though we might have a savior complex. I'm a little guilty of that sometimes. That maybe it's just this piece, maybe it's a piece of work that somebody does with me, and then they do a piece of work with somebody else. And that's - Lori Bean  28:52- or maybe they need something altogether different, like -  Erin Bonner  28:56- like acupuncture. Lori Bean  28:57Yeah. Or naturopathy. Or a movement class. Or some additional support. Erin Bonner  29:03Absolutely. Alyssa Rabin  29:03It's interesting, because once clients, I've had some clients ask me in the past, well, why would I choose psychology over soul coaching or life coaching or... And I kind of put it like, therapy, the psychology therapy, is almost to work on what's there. And once that's been helped, as much as it can be helped, and you're ready to move on to the next level, that's when you go on to the life coaching and life therapy. So it's, everything is a process. Erin Bonner  29:39Yeah, I had a conversation with Jadine our life coach about, like, how do we decide who is the most effective fit? And she and I had this really cool conversation about if somebody comes in the doors and they go, 'okay, I'm just feeling stuck on my next step'. They don't necessarily have trauma they want to work through or it's not the time for them to work through their trauma. Because sometimes it's important to really understand that even if you have trauma, it might not always be the time to work on it. And that's a very acceptable and probably effective choice to make for ourselves. But it's more about that I want to think future focus, I want to think about how the heck do I get myself to the next step? That's where life coaching is a great option. Lori Bean  30:17Or big life changes. Like I'm a new mom. So I just had a baby and my life is just completely changed, and how do I navigate this? Needing support around that. Erin Bonner  30:28Actually, I love that example. Because that's when we can kind of guide into two paths. Okay - so what you just said Lori - absolutely life coaching might be a fit. Whereas if there's postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, that's where a psychologist  is probably a better fit. Alyssa Rabin  30:42As well, okay, for me - example, I've been stay at home mom for 16 years. All of a sudden, BAM, I'm working 12/13 hours a week. I need to know how to move forward with that as a mom, as a wife, as a businesswoman. But as well I need to work on my guilt for not being home, and I would see Erin for that. To just say to myself, it's okay, and I'm worth it. Erin Bonner  31:15Totally. Yeah. Alyssa Rabin  31:17Awesome. Lori Bean  31:18Thank you, Erin. Erin Bonner  31:20And if anybody wants to chat more about the biology, just come and knock on my door because I will nerd out for hours. Alyssa Rabin  31:29Thank you so much.

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin address the very vital subject of trauma, release, and the importance of collaboration between practitioners in providing trauma care, with two integral Maliya practitioners. They welcome Registered Psychologist Erin Bonner, and Acupuncturist and Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine Dr. Megan Markow, to the show.Erin Bonner shares her personal history with PTSD and how she now uses a modality called “prolonged exposure” for the treatment of PTSD. She explains some of how brains store trauma, how trauma can manifest, and the need for assistance to process the emotions behind the trauma. Dr. Megan describes how her own interest in trauma, and her work in helping others release the emotions stored in the body through Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture, is another angle to the same help.The four really dig into how individual trauma can be for people, what treatment can assist someone looking to navigate emotional release, and why it is so important for collaboration experience in terms of practitioner care. Trauma care, and the emotions and bodily manifestations associated with it, benefits from a highly support based and cooperative approach to healing. Lori and Alyssa highlight how Dr. Megan and Erin's different modalities work beautifully together for full treatment and how such collaboration is the goal of Maliya. About Erin Bonner:Erin Bonner is a Registered Psychologist with a Master's of Arts in Counselling Psychology. She is passionate about her role in helping others navigate their individual paths towards wellness. In her 20s she tragically lost her younger brother and then her mother shortly after. Through her own therapeutic journey, she discovered her calling to help others work on understanding and processing emotions to achieve personal growth and well-being.Erin is trained in Cognitive and Dialectical Behavioural Therapies, Prolonged Exposure, Exposure with Response Prevention, Emotion-Focused and Mindfulness-Based Therapy. She specializes in treating depression, anxiety, PTSD, cPTSD, ADHD, emotion dysregulation, grief, OCD, and in helping individuals learn to love themselves and develop strong relationships with the people in their lives. She also offers Sport Psychology to equestrian athletes on an individual or group basis.In addition to working with adults, she has a special interest, passion and gift for working with adolescents aged 14 and older.About Dr. Megan Mankow:Megan Markow completed her schooling at the Canadian Institute of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Calgary, AB. She learned about the many aspects that contribute to health while earning the title of Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Registered Acupuncturist. She has always had a passion for healthcare and helping people feel their best, most aligned self.Megan gravitates to helping people in areas of their life that are often left in the shadows such as sexual, mental and digestive well-being. All parts of a person deserve to be healed and celebrated. Megan is a trauma informed practitioner who understands the complexity and unique differences between each person.Megan will meet you wherever you are on your wellness journey to give you the opportunity to gently heal and allow your true essence to shine through. When she is not working with patients, she replenishes herself by hiking, foraging, and learning about plants. She loves challenging herself to use new ingredients in cooking and to create unique flavour combinations.Resources discussed in this episode:Maliya servicesDSM-5-- Maliya: website | instagram | facebookErin Bonner | Registered Psychologist: website | linkedinDr. Megan Mankow | Acupuncturist & Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine: about | linkedin TranscriptionLori Bean  00:59Hi, this is Lori Bean. Alyssa Rabin  01:01And I'm Alyssa Rabin. Both  01:03And welcome to The Holistic Shift. Lori Bean  01:09Today we are going to be speaking about trauma. Alyssa Rabin  01:14Everyone knows trauma. Lori Bean  01:15Yeah. And we have with us, our clinical psychologist, Erin Bonner, and our Doctor of Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture, Dr. Megan Mankow. Hi guys! Erin Bonner  01:30Hello. Dr. Megan Mankow  01:30Hello. Lori Bean  01:31And we felt it was really important to share, especially since we at Maliya are about collaborative care, and we wanted to give some awareness as to how some of these modalities that we offer work together. We really believe here that there isn't one practice, one practitioner, one modality that is really the answer to your care. And we'd really love to share with you why something like psychology and acupuncture can work beautifully together to support in navigating and releasing trauma stored in the mind and in the body. Yeah, I think maybe we'll let Erin introduce herself first. Hi. Erin Bonner  02:15Hi. So I am a registered psychologist and trauma is one of my specialties. It's a bit of a passion of mine, partially because I'm so intrigued by how the brain works, and how we process and heal from trauma, and partially because of my own personal story. I was diagnosed with PTSD in my mid 20s. And I was treated for PTSD. And so I kind of have some personal experience in the trauma treatment process and how the heck do you understand trauma, especially as a highly emotional, sensitive human being? What do I do? My claim to fame is that if you're a client of mine I will probably cry in a session with you at some point, and I have really no shame about it. I'm just a human with emotions. So it's part of why I really am intrigued by the concept of trauma and how it is something that we can train ourselves to process and understand and heal from. Lori Bean  03:09As a clinical psychologist, what methods do you use personally, to help navigate trauma? Erin Bonner  03:15Yeah, so the modality that I use is a theory called prolonged exposure. And it is a empirically supported treatment for the treatment of PTSD. And it really focuses on strategical flooding of emotions, which I introduce that idea and most people go, oh sounds gross, and it kind of is sometimes. And it's really important for our brain to be able to learn how to process emotions that have been stored because of a trauma response from past moments in our lives, whether it's big T little t traumas. I use that word trauma pretty liberally, because we can use exposure as a treatment for any moment that our brain has, for one reason or the other, not kind of completed an experience of an emotion in a traumatic event. Lori Bean  03:58Hmm. And so that shows up as, what? Like what are these people... like, what is PTSD? What are they experiencing? Erin Bonner  04:08Yeah, so PTSD.... And I really like to think about PTSD - yes, it is a diagnosable mental disorder from the DSM 5 - and it's also something that we can kind of understand sub clinically, that you don't have to have a diagnosis of PTSD to know hey, my body's holding onto trauma from an experience. Whether it's the experience of having big emotions and being invalidated or having, you know, a series of events in our lives that our brain has kind of stacked on top of each other, or having some of those big T traumas. Think about, like, accidents, assaults, anything that our brain and society would go, 'whoa, that's a traumatic event'. We can kind of create that response from lots of different experiences in our lives. Lori Bean  04:45Speaking from, like, a psychologist standpoint, that could show up as anxiety, fear, depression. Erin Bonner  04:58Yeah, two of the big emotions that are linked to PTSD are fear or anxiety and shame. And so, experiences of shame and anxiety over time absolutely can lead to something like depression or even just patterns of emotion dysregulation or we don't feel like we have control. We're not in the driver's seat of the vehicle when it comes to our emotions. Yeah, it can feel pretty chaotic sometimes. Lori Bean  05:23Okay, so that's showing up emotionally and intellectually. Erin Bonner  05:30Absolutely. And relationally. Lori Bean  05:31And relationally. Yeah, you're not being able to have healthy relationships or navigate relationships. Erin Bonner  05:40Yeah. Lori Bean  05:41Okay, so now I'm getting that piece. So, welcome Dr. Megan. Now, from the body perspective.... Alyssa Rabin  05:49Physical perspective. Lori Bean  05:50Actually, I'll let you speak. Tell us about how trauma shows up in the body. Alyssa Rabin  05:57First, tell us about you. Lori Bean  05:58Oh, yeah. Hi Dr. Megan. Dr. Megan Mankow  06:03Yeah, so my name is Dr. Megan Mankow. And I'm a Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture. And yeah, I've taken a really special interest in trauma, again, like through my own experiences, and just learning how helpful acupuncture and psychology can be. And I use that for myself, both acupuncture and psychology and just, it was just key, like the pieces fit together so perfectly. And so I'm just so excited that me and Erin get to do this interview and talk a little bit about what we're passionate about. Erin Bonner  06:33Totally. We've had some solidly nerdy moments about working together. Dr. Megan Mankow  06:39Yeah. And so to me, the definition I really like of trauma is: too much, too fast, with not enough support. Alyssa Rabin  06:48Love that. Dr. Megan Mankow  06:49Yeah, because I think sometimes when people talk about trauma, they think there has to be this huge event and, like, just catastrophic, but it's not always that way. And me and Erin have talked before that sometimes an experience happens, and you're like, 'this is why I'm, like, having this PTSD' but it's not always the biggest event that you would think it would be. It's a lot about who was there to support you, like, how it happened, when it happened. And then, yeah, from there, after a traumatic experience, these emotions come up. And oftentimes trauma gets stored in the body. So if someone comes to me, and they say, 'oh, I have anxiety', I usually ask where do you feel that. And usually, people are a little taken aback, it takes them a second, but I haven't had anyone not be able to tell me, like, where it is. Like either, 'oh, like, my stomach just drops' or 'I feel it in my chest, like, this chest tightness' or 'a lump in my throat'. So I just love being able to work with that. And acupuncture can stimulate the central nervous system. That's how it works. So when we do that, it releases chemicals like in the brain, spinal cord, and the local tissue. And so that's why acupuncture can work on the physical and emotional level at the same time. And that's why I love it. Alyssa Rabin  08:01And then once you experience all of that physical release, I guess, that's when all of the emotional aspect would come, which is why Erin would be brilliant to navigate - Lori Bean  08:17Navigate emotions that are coming up. Okay, so when you talked about, like, anxiety, or what have you, showing up in the stomach, of course we know what that feels like. Or a headache, because it's stressful. But what about things like autoimmune disease or knee pain or unusual ailments that show up in the body? Do you think those could be trauma related as well? Dr. Megan Mankow  08:43Definitely, I think that there's a pattern that happens. So your mind starts to go someplace, and then you react physically, like, even sometimes I'm sure you've noticed when people are telling the story, like, you'll notice they tense up their shoulders, like pull back, or bring their knees to their chest. And we don't even realize that we're doing this, but we are. And so then after a while, like, our mind and our body, you're just like, okay these go together. And so it can show up differently for everyone, like, I don't think there is a set definition of like, oh, this is how it's gonna look for you. So it could be, yeah, autoimmune, knee pain, palpitations. It's different for everyone. And I guess that's part of the medicine, figuring out which system is affected. Lori Bean  09:27So what about - sorry, my mind goes to all these different areas - but, like, what about sexual trauma? Does that mean that's always going to show up in the sexual organs? Or not necessarily? Dr. Megan Mankow  09:37I don't think so necessarily. Yeah, people hold trauma in different places. I think a lot of it is constitution-based. Like, I think a common thing is people feel tension in their shoulders and neck. And that's, like, a common place but, for example, me, my tension, it shows up in I curl my toes, I clench my feet and that's like a family thing. But, so... and that has nothing to do with the anxiety I'm feeling, like in my feet. Same with, like, sexual trauma, even though it occurred in the reproductive system, it doesn't always manifest there. Erin Bonner  10:14Yeah, I think we want to put those connections together and trauma doesn't necessarily, or trauma responses in our body, I should say, they don't necessarily have to make sense given the trauma that we've experienced. That, I think that's one of the most common reports that I get from clients. And definitely, in my own experience, it shows up in these ways that kind of make us feel nuts. It changes our behavior, it changes what we're willing to do, it impacts different parts of our body. And it doesn't necessarily have to make sense, it's this product of our brain. Having this experience in our body, having this experience that it doesn't really know how to put pieces together, or to process fully. And that's where I love us, this idea of us working together, because the first step is unlocking that emotional part of trauma. The cognitive processing comes later, but until we have that kind of healing release in our body, we can think ourselves all the way through it, we probably tried to and maybe hit this wall, because our body's holding on to trauma somewhere. Lori Bean  11:08So how would you know, Erin - like, I think this is a question I get asked - so I'm seeing Erin for psychology. How would Erin know when I need to see Megan? Or vice versa? Megan, how would you know? And when would you suggest and the why piece, like... Alyssa Rabin  11:26And if. If you would suggest it, as well. Erin Bonner  11:28I know in the past I've had clients where we've done PE - prolonged exposure - and, like, in the least clinical sense, what we're looking for is the ugly cry, essentially. That we want to unlock that emotion from our brain, to be able to kind of bring it into the room to go sit with it. And sometimes that does everything we need to do. And sometimes it doesn't. And so I find that any of my clients who are still having trauma responses that are really body related, that's where I see Megan's therapy really fulfilling kind of this holistic treatment of trauma. That if I'm going in, you know, emotionally and cognitively, there is this piece that can be left out, if it's that we need to, you know, unlock things in the body before the brain will kind of allow for that emotional release. Alyssa Rabin  11:30Absolutely. Dr. Megan Mankow  11:32Yeah. And like, I think, personally, everyone should be in therapy, it's just so important to understand the brain. So, one, I almost always recommend therapy, if someone's not in it no matter what. But the thing for me, like when I'm working with patients, is the acupuncture can really move emotions. So things start to come up. I've had patients say like, 'oh, I've just been really thinking about past relationships, like, the week after our appointment'. And sometimes it can be overwhelming, people don't have the coping strategies. And so that's when I would refer them to Erin to talk through your problems. And also, yeah, so that Erin can teach you some coping strategies, and you're able to process and manage all these emotions that are coming up and being unlocked from the body. We need a place to process that. Alyssa Rabin  13:04Like, for instance, you, Dr. Megan, just had a client in about an hour ago, and I noticed that after she was done, she was very emotional. And she was saying how incredible she felt, and she felt like she had unlocked so much. And then I said, 'okay, now you need to deal with those emotions, and you need to book in with Erin'. Lori Bean  13:30No, it's true. And I think a big piece of why Maliya has come to fruition is, myself being a cranial sacral therapist, I will get a phone call three or four days after, which is a similar reaction to emotional release like Megan would have from the body, and then they're either completely distraught or all these memories are coming up. And even though we've sort of prepared the client that that could possibly arise, when it happens it's sort of shocking and you do not know how to navigate it. Every single client I've ever had, when there's emotional release, it's still a surprise. Memories do surface. And, you know, Megan's brilliant at being a doctor of Chinese medicine and an acupuncturist, but she is not a psychotherapist or a counselor or what have you. And Erin's specialty is psychology. You know, we all have our specialties, and I think to be able to offer a place to go either way. So after, you know, you have this emotional release, then counseling is available for you to process. It's such an important piece and I think it's important to offer the acknowledgement that when emotional trauma does surface - it could even be after a massage actually. It could be as simple as the tissues releasing trauma or the organs, our spleen, our liver, whatever is being catered to in this session, emotions often come up later. And we feel like maybe something is wrong with us. Like what is happening? Why are these memories, why am I such a mess? Why am I so emotional? Why am I dysregulated? It's actually completely normal. And we need the counseling piece to follow up for that. Or, it really does work the other way, where Erin, you could be counseling somebody, and then there's all this body tension that arises that we need facilitation with through somebody buddy like Megan through acupuncture. Alyssa Rabin  15:34Well, doing psychology, you're talking about your feelings, it can make you stressed and tense, and you do, you need everything in your body to relax and let go. Which is why it's so brilliant that the two of you are working on the same thing yet focusing on different things. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Lori Bean  15:59And I love that, you know, we need to bring awareness to this because being a holistic practice, holistic means spiritually, mentally, physically, like, it really is all connected - Alyssa Rabin  16:15- our whole being. Lori Bean  16:16Our whole being. And we really need to navigate the body that way. Dr. Megan Mankow  16:21Can I share one of my favorite patient stories? Alyssa Rabin  16:24Yes, please. Dr. Megan Mankow  16:25I had this person come in and they were seeking treatment for anxiety and dissociation, like, they couldn't tell really reality from dreams. Like there was just - he explained it as, like, no joy in life, wasn't able to laugh for years. And so I did a treatment, it was a lot of, like, moving emotion. I do warn people, I say 'you know, emotions might come up, and that's okay, like, you might cry, you might get a little irritable, and that's okay'. But then I left the room and let him relax with the needles in for a couple of minutes. And then I  come back. And he said, 'Megan, guess what happened? Like I laughed for the first time in two years. And I, like, forgot how to laugh.' And all this came up. And I was just so ecstatic. Like that was the best. Lori Bean  17:08So what...So what happened? So the emotions were trapped in the nervous system, or the tissue or the organs? Like, how would you explain that? Dr. Megan Mankow  17:19Yeah, you know, like, it's hard to say. It could have been any of them. Like, with Chinese medicine, I'm working with a system. And so these organ systems, they encompass the tissue, the emotions, they have a bunch of things correlated to it. So I don't actually know if that was stored in muscle tissue, memory, like, whatever it was, I just know that it's time to release it. But I really wish that I would have known Erin, because then that would have been perfect, like, the dissociation piece, I can kind of coach patients into feeling into your body, notice the sensations. But there was, as amazing as that treatment was, there was still some psychological intervention needed. Erin Bonner  18:04Because dissociation is, it's kind of a failsafe, all of our brains have built into it. That when we're hit with a really intense moment, be it, you know, sensory or emotional stimuli, we have this kind of safety mechanism in our brain which is dissociation. Our brain will, you know, blunt the perception of what's happening. Which can be a good thing if we're in a terrible moment, and it can also be what actually creates a trauma response in the first place. That it prevents us from being able to ride the wave of an emotion in a moment, which, you know, in a really awful moment might actually be a good thing. And sometimes our brain will heal that on its own, and sometimes it won't. And so when it lingers, like it sounds like for this fella, somehow we have to unlock that. And the cool thing is, again, it doesn't have to make sense, whether it's we're going in, we're doing something like I'm having you retell me the memory of the experience that was traumatic for you over and over and over and facilitating flooding, which is pleasant as it sounds - not that pleasant - until it is because your brain will habituate and heal itself. Or it's through, you know, tapping into tissue or meridians and your body kind of taking over and doing that work. It's really cool that it doesn't have to make sense. As long as they're facilitating that process of that, like, unblock. Lori Bean  19:14And supported. Alyssa Rabin  19:15Well, and it's because everybody is so different. And it's trapped in so many different areas of the body, in the system, in the brain. And it's almost like you could do the exact same thing to Lori and I and we could both have totally and completely different responses. Dr. Megan Mankow  19:31And I think people, yeah, aren't aware that it doesn't always make sense. And I don't know Erin if you agree, but I think that's where the shame and guilt plays a big role too, because people are like, 'I shouldn't be reacting this way, like it wasn't a big deal or, like, this happens to lots of my friends'. But it does. It doesn't play out the same for everyone. And it's important that you listen to your body and your mind and some things will affect one person at this time in their life differently than the other. And so don't downplay how you're feeling. Lori Bean  20:00I remember I had a client once who, interestingly enough, reached out to me because he was suicidal, because his hamster had just died. And he was genuinely suicidal. And it was a moment for me, where I recognized that all of our trauma is different. Kind of like you were saying earlier, Megan. Trauma is trauma, it could be insignificant to one person, my idea of it might be, but to them, it's this unsurmountable experience. And, you know, perhaps for that individual, being in a car accident might have not had the same impact on him as the hamster dying. I mean, I think trauma is such an interesting thing. I think it has a lot to do with our childhood, our regulation from birth, as an infant, as we grow up, how our nervous system was regulated, what kind of support we had to be able to have a regulated nervous system. And I think we really need to honor, as individuals, that we are at where we're at, and there shouldn't be shame or guilt for the way we are feeling about things. We're here to support at any level with any issues. And we will just guide you through that process with those practitioners and modalities that can help facilitate your well being. Erin Bonner  20:01One of the things I like to add, because shame is such a common experience when there's, you know, subclinical or diagnosed PTSD, that it makes sense because there's this kind of 'don't ask, don't tell' experience when it comes to trauma. You know, we're supposed to, you know, get up, do the thing, go to work, meet with our family, do all the things, you know, human every day. And so it really makes sense why we have shame, it might be because of these societal expectations, and it doesn't help us to be stuck in it. And that's, I think, one of the biggest things when it comes to, I think, the treatment have anything to do with our bodies, whether it's our brain or our body. That hopefully we get to this place, and I think we're getting there sort of, to really allow us to go, hey, something's not right, I just need to figure out who I can access to help me get through whatever it is I'm trying to get through. Whether it's trauma or, you know, day to day stuff. Alyssa Rabin  22:21And to actually take care of yourself, and say, 'it's okay to need this help, and it's okay to reach out'. And let Maliya, more or less, take your health situation and your ailments and guide you on to what is the right path, which are the right practitioners. And we have multiple practitioners here, not every practitioner is right for every client, and vice versa, which is why we create a health plan specifically for each individual. Because it's not going to be the same with - Lori Bean  22:58No, and it's who you're safe with, and who you're comfortable with, and who you align with, to really help figure out, get to the root of what's going on. Alyssa Rabin  23:07Absolutely. Erin Bonner  23:08One of the things - and I don't know if you feel the same way, Megan - that from the practitioner perspective, I mean, I'm a person in the helping role because I like to help people. Which comes with, you know, the feeling of 'I have to help every single person that comes to the door' and like I'm the worst therapist if I can't help you, or your struggle, or your experience doesn't fit within, you know, my modality. And having this kind of openness and saying, 'you know what, I might not be the answer for you, yet here are some other options that might be the answer for you' takes a weight off my shoulders. It allows me to just jump in and do what I do, and then say, 'hey, I think you're going to be better served by someone like Megan'. Alyssa Rabin  23:45And that's what's so incredible here, is you would never know who is a doctor of whatever, whatever, compared to me being a life coach, you know? You would never know because every person here is here for the exact same situation and the exact same reason: to help people. There's no competition. There's no - Lori Bean  24:10- and we support one another in - Alyssa Rabin  24:12- immensely. Lori Bean  24:13- in whatever our clients need. Alyssa Rabin  24:15Yeah, absolutely and completely. Lori Bean  24:16That's kind of the way it works. Maybe it's a naturopath, maybe it's functional medicine, maybe it's just a massage, self care, maybe it's a yoga class. Alyssa Rabin  24:24Absolutely. Absolutely. Lori Bean  24:27I think it's important that we're here to work together and support you for whatever it is you need. Dr. Megan Markow  24:34Well, and when you think about the definition of trauma that I said - too much, too fast, with not enough support - that support piece is huge. And, like, so even, that's what we're here to provide. And that's, like, the shame and the guilt, if you feel like you can't talk to friends and family about a situation, that trauma just builds and gets worse. And that's why we are here as professionals to help support you. And, yeah, every - like you guys were saying - everyone needs different medicine at different times in their life. And so it's very important. Like, I love that we're collaborative because, yeah, like Erin said sometimes you want to be able to help someone so bad but sometimes you can't. And like, that's just, yeah. Erin Bonner  25:16And it doesn't mean we're the worst practitioner in the world in that moment. Dr. Megan Mankow  25:28Yeah, but I just think we all recognize that not one person is everything. And that connection piece is so important, even, like, among one modality, like, psychologists - I might connect with Erin, and someone else exact same, like, modalities, they use the same techniques, were trained by the same person, I'm going to get better with the practitioner that I feel supported by and connected to. Alyssa Rabin  25:53Absolutely. Lori Bean  25:54The one thing I can tell you, and you probably will all attest to this when you come into our space, it is a very safe and very loving, very nurturing, and we all will do our best to make sure that you get the care that you need. You will never be left alone. You will always be followed up with and supported, and we will do our best to find you the right practitioners and the right modalities for your care. So thank you, ladies. Alyssa Rabin  25:55Thank you, girls, for joining us today. Lori Bean  26:26It was so great, and see you on the next episode.

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin, the sister hosts of Women's Wellness - The Holistic Shift, share Lori's life-changing story about how she found healing and purpose within holistic modalities. Lori's experience led to the founding of Maliya and the devotion to true nurturing and collaboration between practitioners that Maliya stands for.Lori shares how she had what many in society consider an ideal life - a good marriage, a great husband, two lovely children, and a thriving interior design business - until a terrible car accident led to what felt like interminable recovery from profound injuries. Lori and Alyssa give insight into Lori's struggles to find support and healing modalities that truly worked. It wasn't until Lori attended a soul retreat that she identified what felt off and what she was missing in both her recovery and her life.Lori's realization led to her becoming a lymphatic drainage therapist and then a biodynamic craniosacral therapist. She founded Maliya because of her belief that part of what's missing in women's care is true collaboration between not only Western and Eastern medical practices, but between practitioners as well. Lori and Alyssa detail how Maliya offers nurturing, care, collaboration, and medication all designed to support women through connecting, healing body and soul, and helping them navigate the formation of true community.Resources discussed in this episode:MitochondriaSedona Soul AdventuresCalgary Distress CentreMaliya - Services-- Maliya: website | instagram | facebook TranscriptionAlyssa Rabin  01:00Hey, Lori. Lori Bean  01:01Hi, Alyssa. Alyssa Rabin  01:03How are you? Lori Bean  01:03I'm good. How are you? Alyssa Rabin  01:04I'm good. I'm so excited. We're here today to let you know why we've created Maliya, what we're all about, and how we're here to support you as women. So I think we need to start by, Lori, why have you created Maliya? What happened? What's going on? Lori Bean  01:25So I think I'll share a little bit about my story. The listeners will have a bit of an understanding of where this has come from and why Maliya is needed today. And maybe we start, we go back a little bit. So as we all navigate life, we have this idea that, you know, go to school, we graduate, we go to university, we get a degree, we get a job, we get into a relationship, we get married, we have children, and we live or we hope to live this little white picket fence life. And my life, like most people, was on track for that. I got married at 24. I had my first baby at 25. I graduated university very early, I became an interior designer. Before I even had my baby, I started my own interior design practice. And I was on track for this beautiful life. Alyssa Rabin  02:32That society tells us is a beautiful life. Lori Bean  02:34Yeah. And what we know or what's been ingrained in us as being the ideal life. And things were going pretty well. So I started to have this flourishing design practice, I had a three and a five year old. And my life was pretty good. Something, though, always felt a little bit unsettling. And I wasn't really sure what that was. At that time, I was super well, had a great husband, like, things were as they were supposed to be. And then about five or six years later, something started to feel out of alignment is the only way I can say it. So I was running my design practice but it wasn't fulfilling me. I had these amazing kids, but there was still something missing. Something was off and I just wasn't sure what it was. Then one morning, I'm now 31, we're taking the kids to swimming lessons and out of the blue we get into this horrible car accident. I was severely injured. My kids were injured. My husband at the time was fine. And it was a huge shock. I was physically traumatized. I had numerous injuries. Neurologically, I think at the time, I probably had some neurological damage. So I emerge from this car accident and this experience with, 'what just happened', like, my awareness at that time was okay, I'm in this car accident, I need to get care, I need to get help. I need to get better for my children. I need to get better for my husband. And I started this journey of searching for care. So in the beginning, being very much incapacitated, I did what normal people would do in this situation. So I saw my physician, I went for physio, I went for massage, I had chiropractic treatments, and I did all the things but I wasn't getting better. My physical body was starting to heal a little bit but I think the whiplash piece, the inflammation, just kept getting worse. Alyssa Rabin  04:57And I remember you saying one time it was almost, like, spreading. Lori Bean  05:00Yeah, it was, like, spreading and spreading in the sense of it was overtaking my body: the exhaustion, the inflammation. I just was not getting better. So even though the physical - so the herniations and all those things started to heal - the inflammation wasn't leaving, neurologically I wasn't getting better. I was just not feeling well, even though I looked well. Alyssa Rabin  05:27Okay, the reason that I can talk about this so personally is, Lori and I are sisters. So I was there through this journey with her. And one thing I'll say about Lori is, she is extremely stubborn. And does not like to ask for help. So in her everyday life she looked, quote/unquote, normal and healthy and with it and everything was going on. Lori Bean  05:55But I think it's because we live in this society where we need to show up. And it doesn't matter what's going on, we still need to be the perfect wife, the perfect friend, the perfect daughter, the perfect mother, still navigate our children. So we're still doing all of those things and holding space for everybody else, and we still come second. And I think what should have happened is I really should have delved deeper into care so I could be my fullest self. And then I would be able to navigate everything else with more capacity. But we don't know what we don't know. Alyssa Rabin  06:37Well, like they say on an airplane, if it's going down you put the mask on yourself first. So you can help everyone out. Lori Bean  06:43Right. But we don't, we just don't do that. And we don't ask for help, and we don't get the care we need. So as this is going along, I'm recognizing that my relationship with my spouse, he was unable to hold space for what I was going through. I think being a very strong woman and having it all together and running a business and running a family and all these things... and now I'm incapacitated, he didn't know what to do. No fault of his but the roles had sort of shifted. So I was very alone in this healing journey. My parents didn't really understand, my family didn't really understand, I couldn't - obviously my kids are five and three, I still needed to show up. So I go on this journey of trying to heal and I'm not getting better, and I'm not getting better, and I'm not getting better. Alyssa Rabin  07:28You're not getting the care and the support that you need. Lori Bean  07:30No, I would go to doctor's appointments and it would be this quick fix, 10-20 minute appointment, they would do an adjustment, or I would go for physio, I'd go home, and I would be alone. So this whole alone scenario started to develop and they didn't have an understanding emotionally around what I was going through. I was not coping, I didn't have the capacity, I was continuing to deteriorate. And so then it led to not only this physical unwellness, but this emotional/mental unwellness. So then I was put on anti anxiety/anti depression medication, which sort of, in reflection, was a band aid. Kind of helped a little bit but I was still struggling and not recovering. I slept constantly, my immune system started to fail. I started to get every single illness that was out there, every flu, every - everything that you could possibly experience I started to experience. Alyssa Rabin  08:31And you were diagnosed with every everything. Fibromyalgia... Lori Bean  08:36Chronic fatigue, they thought I had MS, they thought I had Lyme disease. I had all this testing done through my medical doctor, and the testing comes back or kept coming back normal, normal, normal, you're fine, normal. Alyssa Rabin  08:49FYI, people, did you know that when you actually go to a western medicine doctor, and they do the whole line of bloodwork, your annual bloodwork work, they literally don't test for anything. It's the bare bone basics. Lori Bean  09:06Yeah. And then if you fall into, for example, if they're checking your thyroid, and you fall into the quote/unquote normal range, even if you're really, really high, but you're still normal or just a little over, or really, really low, you're still considered fine. They will not pursue that or navigate that any further. They do not check for things like cancers or Lyme disease, like things that - Alyssa Rabin  09:32 - are on a cellular basis. Lori Bean  09:33Yeah. They don't look into your mitochondria. They don't look into the health of your cells. They don't look at certain levels of inflammation. It still falls within a certain range. Which I didn't know for quite a while because how can I be this unwell and everything comes back normal? So this actually went on for, I would say, seven years. And it affected everything in my life and I was not getting better, not getting better, not getting better. And it also actually gave me time to sit with what I would call my truth. My truth being: What is this all about? Why is this happening? What is out of alignment in my life that is not allowing me to move forward and to heal? What do I need to find and what support do I need to get better? To fulfill me, but also to get to the root of what was actually happening. Alyssa Rabin  10:32And by then you start thinking you're crazy. Lori Bean  10:36Oh yeah, definitely thought I was crazy. Every day I spent time on WebMD researching everything I could possibly research. And it turned out I, in my mind, I had every single disease out there because I had every symptom out there of everything. And then one day, I'm now - my car accident was 31, I'm now 39 - I'm sitting at the computer on WebMD and a pop-up comes up about something about the soul. And I remember seeing the word 'the soul'. And I sat at the computer and I looked at that word for a while and I thought what's the soul? Yeah, is it religious? My interpretation or my awareness at that time around soul was, it was very existential and it was super woo-woo and I grew up with this very scientific Western medical way of navigating life. You have an illness, you take a pill, you take a drug, you know, then you're going to be fine, fine. And I'm, something about that resonated, because I knew it wasn't my physicalness. It wasn't my mental health - that was deteriorating, but I knew that wasn't the cause. And then I started to look up the soul. And I thought, hmm, maybe it's something deeper that I am not aware of, or not connected to. And as I started to explore what the soul, our soul, is all about, I discovered this retreat in Sedona through the Sedona - what was it called? - it was like a soul adventure retreat. It was a five day retreat, and the explanation of what you experienced and why you would go to this retreat was all about connecting to your truth. Are you in alignment with yourself? Are you on the right path in life? And this connection of being out of alignment with your soul, your essence, how that impacts your mental, physical well being. And every example they gave, it was like reading my story. And I didn't recognize at the time how out of alignment I was because my life, in essence, was perfect. I had a great husband, I had beautiful children, I had an amazing job making tons of money, all the things that we aspire to. But when I sat with the truth, my relationship was more of a friendship, which was lovely, but it wasn't fulfilling the needs that I started to learn I needed in a marriage. And being a mom was not enough. And I started to recognize that that was okay. I love being a mom, but it wasn't fulfilling my soul. And my design practice, even though it was flourishing, you know, I was successful, making a lot of money, I don't think that's exactly what I should be doing in this lifetime. There was something more for me. Which I always knew, but I was still following this path. So anyway, I decided I'm gonna go to the soul adventure retreat. I literally booked the retreat the next day. I flew away on my own to Sedona, Arizona, I rented a car, got my own hotel, I'd never left my husband, I'd never left my family. And I do this five day soul exploration. And all I can say is my life shifted drastically from that experience. I really grasped how important it is that in this lifetime, we live our truth and we spend time diving into what is in alignment with who we are, how we need to show up, what really feels good. Alyssa Rabin  14:34What feels right. Lori Bean  14:35What feels right. Just because you're good at something, I was great at design and I still like it, it's something I love to do, but is that my purpose? Is that really how I need to be living my days, you know, what kind of relationship am I really looking for? You know, there was no abuse. There was nothing like that, but there was this disconnect, this deep level of understand who I was that was not being fulfilled, being seen in my relationship, a level of intimacy that I didn't really even know I wasn't receiving. I mean, you don't know what you don't know if you haven't had it, we got married super young. I just knew something was missing. So essentially, I came back, and with this greater sense of awareness, still not knowing exactly what I should be doing, I knew that there was more. I decided to end my 18 year marriage. Alyssa Rabin  15:30And he is wonderful. Lori Bean  15:32Yep, nothing against him. It was just this sense of Alyssa Rabin  15:36Disconnect. I keep saying disconnect. Lori Bean  15:39There was a disconnect. And we're different people, which is okay, but I think we were both meant for more. He was meant for more from our relationship that I wasn't able to facilitate. And the same for me. And so yeah, I ended the relationship, I sold my business, we got separated. And I did a lot of self work. Who I was. I knew there was something around connecting to women. So I started to volunteer at the Calgary Distress Center. I did that for two years, supporting women on the phone lines. I worked at the Women's Center, the women's shelters, and in doing that, even as a volunteer, my heart, my soul, that's when I knew my soul was connected to my truth. Because I felt so good. I started to feel better. My physical being started to heal, my mental well being started to heal. I felt in alignment. I felt excited about life, I was showing up better for my children, better for my family. And trust me, I wasn't healed or perfect, there was still a lot of work. Alyssa Rabin  16:55And she was still on her anti anxiety, which we still are, thank God for that. Lori Bean  16:59Yeah. Like, I think there's definitely value in our western medical system. But I also, at the time, became more open to exploring different modalities, different ways of healing, different opportunities and practitioners that could support me. And I met with a naturopath who did unsurmountable levels of testing and I discovered so much on a cellular level that was going on in my body, there was so much hormone dysregulation. I had incredibly low progesterone levels, super high estrogen levels, my cortisol levels were off the chart, I ended up just outside of the range of where my thyroid should be. So I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism. And then I started on supplementation to help support all these different systems in my body. And literally, it changed my life. Alyssa Rabin  17:56Yeah. And I remember it was almost like a switch. Lori Bean  17:58It was like a switch. And I was being heard and seen. All of these appointments are people who deeply care, they've gone through their own experiences, they can hold space for your well being. Alyssa Rabin  18:12They get it. Lori Bean  18:14They get it. They have a level of understanding that I'd never experienced. I dove into the world of craniosacral therapy and lymphatic drainage therapy and acupuncture. And collectively, I started to emerge as the person I am meant to be in this lifetime. And from there, I decided okay, maybe my role in this world is to become a practitioner. So I became a life coach. So I took a two year training to become a life coach. And something about that - it was amazing and there was a lot of self exploration through that - but still, I realized after that program, that just wasn't the right fit. So then I went and became a lymphatic drainage therapist, which was incredible. And I think it's one of the most beautiful modalities for healing. It gets our systems, our fluids flowing and draining and clearing, and relieves toxicity in the body, and all these things, amazing. And then I thought, okay I need to add something to that, so I became a biodynamic craniosacral therapist, which literally changed my life. I mean, that is really about regulating the nervous system and supporting all our systems in our body on a cellular level: our tissues, our blood, our cerebrospinal fluids, our muscles, our organs, everything in functioning on a higher level. Alyssa Rabin  19:51And how they're quote/unquote supposed to function. Lori Bean  19:54And how they're supposed to function. And the incredible things I was seeing with my clients, I mean, I would be working at the head on the brain and all of a sudden somebody with a knee injury, the knee would start to shift, the patella would move, the healing that's connected throughout the body is absolutely fascinating. And in doing that, what really started to happen was I started to recognize, especially with something like biodynamic craniosacral therapy, because you're releasing, a lot of it's based in trauma, and trauma gets trapped in our tissues and ourselves. A couple of days later, all these emotions would start to emerge. And so it was kind of cool, because I could then bring in my life coaching and support them. But that's not really my role. So I started to connect with some psychologists that I knew, that after a craniosacral treatment, they could meet with a psychologist, and they can kind of work through the trauma that was emerging. Very cool, right? Or, on the other hand, I would start to notice in the body that there were other things that needed to support. So I could actually really tap into what was going on, perhaps with the liver, or with the hormones in the body, or different things that I started to connect with. And I reached out to my friend, who's a functional medicine practitioner, and she was able to take them on so she can get to their systems at a deeper level and do deeper testing. So all of that was... Alyssa Rabin  21:29Except practitioners can't talk from clinic to clinic. Lori Bean  21:35No, no. So it wasn't cohesive enough, because they would work with one of my clients but I wouldn't really know what was going on, or they wouldn't totally know because there's not a- Alyssa Rabin  21:46Collaboration. Lori Bean  21:48Yeah, it's not a true collaboration, because we're not really working together. It's one referral to another referral, they're still going all over the place. So there was still - Alyssa Rabin  21:58Doctor/client privilege, you know? You keep what's going on and you can't share that with anyone else. Lori Bean  22:04Yeah. So I really started to understand that this needed to be happening in an environment where all of this information can be shared and we work collaboratively with these clients. And in saying that, it's not just one client going to this person, this person, and this person, it's really working together to create a plan for the client. And we're supporting them holistically over a period of time. We're all monitoring the client together, we're making sure that the treatments align with one another. They're getting the support they need, we're taking the time to really listen to what's going on in the body and finding and working with the practitioners that will really meet their specific needs. Alyssa Rabin  22:55And this is what brings us to what is Maliya? What is it? Lori Bean  23:00And so, everyone kept saying, Lori we need to create something like this together, we need to open a center that comes from - yes, a lot of clinics talk about collaboration, but are they truly collaborating or are they're just a bunch of practitioners working together in a space? So it's really about collaborating together for care. And the other piece is, so much of it is about environment. I think the number one thing is being able to feel safe. And if you feel safe in an environment, and you feel nurtured, and supported and cared for, then that level of care is elevated to a whole other level. And so what Maliya, really that was number one, so number one was creating an environment that's not essentially spa-like, not clinic-like, but it is nurturing and welcoming and warm and comfortable. We have a beautiful lounge where people can come and sit and share and perhaps join a book club or perhaps a woman's talk or healing sessions. And it's warm and inviting. So that's number one. Number two, we have a wellness specialist, who's Alyssa, who takes the time to meet with you to figure out what you've been going through, what you're going through, what you've experienced, what modalities you've already explored, which physicians you're seeing, what medications you're on, and what is missing, why you're not better. Alyssa Rabin  24:45So what I would do with that information is I would, knowing the modalities that we have here very, very, very in depth and very well, I would sort of in my head you know, say okay, well, I think that they could do acupuncture which would help regulate blah blah blah. And cranial because they need some of their nervous system put in place and regulated. And then I would actually approach the practitioners and I would say, look without using names or anything, I would say, we have somebody here who is experiencing this, this is what they're going through, this is what's missing, do you believe that your modality could support them or fit with them. And then from there, I would continue and continue until we actually had a package put together for you as an individual, with individual practitioners that would work with you. And we have multiple practitioners working in each modality. So it's not just like, you're gonna come in, and you're gonna do psychology, and you have to see our psychologist, we have three different psychologists, so depends on your personality, depends on your needs, your wants, your desires, It's totally different, they practice differently from one another, so whatever is going to fit into you is who we would match you with and pair you with. And then I would sit down with you again, and I would lay out all of our practitioners and what we think would help, and not help, and then you get to choose. You can do all, you can do none, you can do one, you can do some, just knowing that there's care that can actually help you as an individual, is key is totally key. After you do a modality with a practitioner, me as the wellness coach, wellness specialist, I will call you, see how you're doing, you know. After cranio, as Lori stated earlier, things can start to come up a day or two later, and you're alone, by yourself, not knowing if this is normal. If, are you going crazy? Should I be experiencing this? Lori Bean  27:07Do I need additional support? Who else do I need to see right now? Alyssa Rabin  27:11Exactly, and so that's when you'll get a little phone call from me. Saying how are you doing? Do you have any questions? I'm here. Tell me, talk to me. Lori Bean  27:19It's all about support and care. And what I really know, one million percent, is that I think my journey of unwellness and illness really would have been a much shorter journey if I would have had the care and support and nurturing. And I think, too, when we show up in the world as these strong women, people don't recognize that it's actually the strong women that even need a whole other level of support. Alyssa Rabin  27:51Absolutely. Lori Bean  27:53And it's hard for us to ask for it or to even accept it, to be honest. But the need is so deep. And I wonder, too, if maybe we show up so strongly to really mask our sensitivity. And I think we need to have awareness as practitioners that this is something going on with a lot of us. Alyssa Rabin  28:23And let you know that you're not alone. Lori Bean  28:26Yeah, I think it's just so common. It's so normal, we see it all the time here. You know, people don't know what to do, they've been ill for a really long time, they're not getting the care they need, they've done practices that aren't working, there's no follow up. There's no conversation, there's no integration. Integration is so big when you've had an experience or you're trying a new medication, or you're trying a new supplement, like how is that working for you? Let's figure out how we can support you on a deeper level. Alyssa Rabin  28:56And, as well I was saying, you know, with acupuncture and cranial therapy, we also have a nurse practitioner that's on board here. So we truly and completely believe in a collaboration of Western and Eastern medicine. Like I always say thank God for my happy pills. But then at the same time, that's helping one aspect, whereas there's so many other aspects that can be helped and guided through all of these different modalities. So the collaboration of Western and Eastern is huge. Lori Bean  29:32Yeah. And what we really are promoting is seeing a naturopath first and getting all of the in depth testing done so we can see where all your levels are at. If there is something that shows up in that testing that needs to be dealt with immediately with medication, that's when the nurse practitioner comes in and they work together to navigate that. Or you're on supplements to help with, perhaps it's cortisol levels or your progesterone, whatever it is that's showing up. And if it needs to be managed at a deeper level, the nurse practitioner comes in to help regulate, you know, your hormones or what have you. But they're constantly working together with both supplements, and perhaps it's mental wellness, and medication. I think it's a total collaboration. And just the other piece that I want to bring in is, especially with COVID, and this level of isolation we've experienced, what we're seeing with people actually fearful of reemerging into society, and connecting again and getting help. We've created a studio where we offer - yes, we offer yoga - but we also offer small, intimate groups of connection through mindfulness, through restorative practices, through women connecting, all of our yoga, all of our group classes, are very small and intimate. The studio doesn't have mirrors, the teachers are all trauma informed, we really want people to start connecting back to themselves by connecting to isolation. Yeah, and connecting with each other. And it's been interesting. So through COVID I was starting to study this... there's these little areas in the world called blue zones where communities are highly functional. These people thrive on levels that are unheard of. So their longevity, they live, they all live past one hundred and whatever years old. Yeah, they don't have mental illness, they don't have physical illness, they're not on medication, their immune systems are really, really strong. And in studying this, I was thinking, especially in creating Maliya, what are they doing differently than what wwe're experiencing here in North America? Alyssa Rabin  32:11We automatically think exercise and healthy eating, which is very important, but that's not what it is. Lori Bean  32:17No, they said the number one reason that they have this incredible high level of function and health is through community. So by being supported by other people in their community, being nurtured, being taken care of, whether it's a woman going through her menstrual cycle, or whether someone's pregnant or they just had a baby, or kids are struggling, or one of them has to work, there's always a community supporting the needs of those who need it. Alyssa Rabin  32:54So you're never left alone. Lori Bean  32:57No, you're never alone. You're never... you're always seen and heard and supported. And there's this huge sense of this extended family and they're not all related. It's a huge community of people loving and nurturing each other. Alyssa Rabin  33:17We hope Maliya is a blue zone. Truly and completely. Lori Bean  33:22We need to get back to connecting to one another. And so if we just gently immerse ourselves in connection and community, and that's why our classes are very, very small. They're very, very intimate. They're gently nudging you out of your isolation. They're safe, loving and nurturing. And I think, if we can really get that message across as to how important that is for your mental well being, which contributes to your physical well being and your spiritual well being, I think there's the opportunity for some really, really deep healing. Alyssa Rabin  34:06Absolutely. Absolutely. Lori Bean  34:09So we welcome you to Maliya, we welcome you to just drop by, or give us a call and explore some of our offerings. And even just have a conversation. If you're curious about what modalities we offer, who our practitioners are, what we can do for you, if you have suggestions, we're open to that as well. Alyssa Rabin  34:34Absolutely. And come in and have a coffee with us. Lori Bean  34:37Yeah, come have a chat. Come have a coffee. Alyssa Rabin  34:40We love when people just come in and come say hi. Yeah, it's the best part of the day. Lori Bean  34:46But we we want to change the way we love and nurture and care and support one another. Alyssa Rabin  34:53Absolutely.

Are you exhausted by our current medical system? Feeling unsure of your next steps or who can actually help you? Has everything you've tried and spent money on been a bandaid solution? Are you feeling alone and lost on your Wellness journey? Come and join us as we explore the ins and outs of the latest holistic practices. Let's get to the root cause of your problems and find out which modalities are the best fit for your circumstances.  Let's alleviate your worries, concerns and frustrations so you can live the life you are meant to live, and be the woman you are meant to be. We are here to support you and update you on the latest offerings in the world of holistic medicine, so you can learn and participate in the most comprehensive care that is available to you at this time. Maliya: website | instagram | facebook