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temple passover zeal consume jesus promises 25i

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 6, 2024

John 2:12–25I. Prologue: Geographical Transition – 12II. Jesus Clears the Temple at Passover – 13-17III. Jesus Promises to Replace the Temple – 18-22IV. Epilogue: Faith that Does Not Save – 23-25

Erin Ashbacher - Unlock Your Leadership Potential Fitness Choices that Boost Energy and Performance

Sweet On Leadership

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 2, 2024 33:38

Have you ever wondered how small fitness tweaks can unlock your leadership potential and supercharge your energy? In Episode 41 of Sweet on Leadership, host Tim Sweet welcomes back Erin Ashbacher, a CSEP-certified personal trainer and senior health advisor, to discuss the powerful connection between physical fitness and leadership performance. Erin reveals that even the smallest changes in your daily routine, like a brisk walk or standing on one leg while brushing your teeth, can recharge your mental and physical energy, helping you grow stronger in both your personal and professional life.Throughout the episode, Tim and Erin dive into the challenges executives and caregivers face in maintaining their health while leading others. Erin offers practical, bite-sized strategies to help listeners integrate wellness into their busy schedules without feeling overwhelmed. From building mental resilience through exercise to the importance of proper hydration, the conversation is packed with actionable tips to boost your personal energy and leadership capacity. Whether you're a leader managing a team or a caregiver balancing responsibilities, this episode offers empowering insights to help you thrive in every aspect of your life.About Erin AshbacherErin Ashbacher, a distinguished Senior Health Advisor and CSEP-certified personal trainer, is a driving force in health, wellness, and fitness. Armed with a Bachelor of Kinesiology from The University of Calgary, Erin, a powerlifter and former dancer, seamlessly combines expertise in movement, nutrition, and motivation.As the owner of ERA Fitness, Erin boasts a top 10 industry performance since 2016, offering personalized training and coaching services. Her approach, emphasizing life balance and aligning health with professional goals, positions her as a key collaborator for leadership development clients in Calgary and beyond. Erin's superpowers encompass listening, goal-setting, movement expertise, and the ability to create customized programs, both in-person and online. Rooted in a famous Alberta rodeo family, she brings a unique appreciation for farming and ranching to her multifaceted lifestyle, which includes enjoying outdoor activities with her partner, Doug. Resources: National Saftey Council 2019: Cost of Fatigue in the WorkplaceCentre of Disease Control 2016: A good night's sleep is critical for good healthA purpose in life by day results in better sleep at night: Northwestern 2017 StudyJulie Freedman Smith --Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Erin Ashbacher | Shred Sisters: Website: Shred SistersLinkedin: Erin Ashbacher -- TranscriptErin 00:01Take the disruption in the season or in the schedule as an opportunity to reassess and add in something new or change what you're doing right. All summer long, I was on my bike, and it was amazing. And now that it's fall, it's getting a little bit cooler, and taking it as an opportunity to reassess my activity schedule and get back into the gym and lift some weights again. So it's okay to do that. Tim 00:25I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 41 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 00:56Well, Hey everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. I'm excited, once again, to introduce my friend, personal trainer and TWE Health and Wellness Consultant, Erin Ashbacher. Erin is a CSEP-certified personal trainer and a senior health advisor. She's been involved in several different sports, and I'll let her tell you all about that, but she brings a wealth of experience to the table, and because 90% of the executives that I help have concerns in the health area. I am wonderfully privileged to have Erin on staff so that I can pass them off to her because she's infinitely more qualified than I am to help them in that space. So welcome again, Erin. Thanks for being here. Erin 01:41Thanks for having me again. Tim. Tim 01:44So on that note, you've done so many cool things. Tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your history, and what's got you moving and active right now. Erin 01:55Yeah, I did my degree at the University of Calgary in kinesiology, and I fell in love with how the body moves and how it reacts to different inputs, and I've had an amazing career working in cardiac rehabilitation and then working with high-level executives in downtown Calgary, as well as lots of different athletes from across a multitude of sports, both getting ready to compete, as well as some rehab and some prehab. So I just spent the entire summer on my bike, coaching mountain biking and getting athletes ready to hit the trails. Few that were looking to get faster for some races, but a lot of just kind of recreational people wanting to get out and enjoy the beautiful place that we live. Tim 02:42Right, and I mean, we are at the foothills of some amazing riding, and as we know, we've got several friends in that industry, and such a joy to be able to work with people that are involved in that sport and putting on awesome events in that sport. So really good. So before we go too much further, we've got a little tradition here, as you know, and that is that we have our previous guest lob a question at possibly the next guest, who often they never know who it is. So your question comes from Massimo Bacchus, who's a fellow leadership coach and my new friend. I love new friends. Massimo asks, what is the one thing that you are most afraid of to let go, and if you did let go of that thing, who would you be? Erin 03:29Ooh, it's a great question. I would say that my biggest fear is being able to confidently tell others about my value and what would I bring to the table, it's always been this pull of you can make money or you can be genuine and authentic, and I know that that's not true, and so I would love to be able to kind of let that go, and I know that I would be able to make a much larger impact if I can get it for that. Tim 03:59What would the first few days of a relationship with a new client look like if that stress was off you? Erin 04:07Oh, I would probably sleep better in the night before I met a new client. Yeah, I mean, I know that I would come into things a lot more confidently. I wouldn't be worried about kind of this, like background of what the bill looks like at the end of the day, and just being able to walk in they would see that they know that, right? Tim 04:29Well, it's funny that you say that, and it almost sounds like a plant, but I assure you, dear listeners, that it is not. We're going to be talking today about capacity. We're going to be talking today about our personal energy, and the energy that we're able to put into the workplace and put into our professions and put into our lives, and that body battery, that mental battery that each of us has, because Erin is the perfect person to talk about, how do we increase the ability of that battery to take more energy in, to use it more effectively, to recharge faster. Am I expecting too much from you there, Erin?Erin 05:07Uh, no. Not at all. Tim 05:09You're totally game. Right on. A couple of little stats here that we were talking about before we got going. You know, when we look at the state of the workplace, and I have, I would say, almost all of the clients that I have, all the teams that I deal with, especially as we've come through some fairly tumultuous times, fatigue in the workplace, ability to feel like you've got anything left at the end of the week is an issue. Before COVID, the National Safety Council down in the states had done a study, and this was from 2019 where they figured at that time, it cost the US economy $136 billion in lost productivity when businesses weren't able to properly manage their capacity and manage their fatigue levels. And the Center for Disease Control at the same time told us that one in three adults didn't get enough sleep. Now, that, to me, is not surprising. In fact, I would be really surprised if that number, that number was from that number is actually from 2016 pardon me, if that isn't higher now, because of all the distractions and whatnot we've got plaguing us. Erin 06:17Absolutely. Tim 06:18Doom scrolling right before bed. Erin 06:21Right, well, and thinking about quality and quantity of sleep, right? So, yeah, interesting. I'd love to see the new stat on that. Tim 06:29Well, so as we launch into that, what do you see as the connection between physical and mental wellness and being able to show up and be the professional, be the leader, be the decision maker? How do you see that? Erin 06:45Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of research that shows that exercise of all types, of light, moderate and vigorous exercise will help to enhance your mood, improve your energy levels, and promote your quality of sleep, and when we have all of those things, we can show up at our nine to five with more energy, right, more to give, right? And exercise is also going to be decreasing our stress hormones, right, increasing our endorphins when we exercise, so those feel good chemicals that we get in our body, and also decreasing our stress hormones, our cortisol levels. So, decreases in anxiety and increases in our mental health. Tim 07:31For anyone that is able to get out for a walk when they are stressed, I was talking with a team around when they were dealing with high conflict in the workplace. And what do you do when you have to address a really, really difficult situation where you've got somebody that's in near on crisis, or at least is panicking, the ability, even just to get them out walking, switch the script. And I know that that's more the act of and it's a bit of a distraction, but I really believe that you know you're outside, you're breathing. In the moment, you can process things. You can set everything else aside. And that's, I mean, that's in the short term, but of course, you're also talking about in the long term, long-term capacity. Tim 08:13Absolutely. And that's that whole like light exercise, right? Going for a 15 minute walk when something's really intense. Yeah, we see those that increase in heart rate right, when in a good way, right? And it helps to create, give us more clarity and more creativity, so that we can come back to our difficult thing with open eyes. Tim 08:35So last time you were here, we talked about sort of the common challenges and resistances that people have to putting in the work or finding time throughout the day to exercise and take that time for themselves, and that it's really difficult mentally for some people to value themselves enough to do that. As you've worked with so many, I would say, executive clients you were working with clients that are at the top of their game, their CEOs, VPS, you're right in that space. What are some of the common health challenges that you have seen over the years crop up in that particular subset of people? Erin 09:17The ones that aren't taking care of themselves? Tim 09:19Or maybe they come to you with something? Erin 09:21Yeah, they come to me with something. I mean, there's a lot of high blood pressure and a lot of sleep problems as well. When we are not taking care of ourselves, we're not taking care of our mental health, it can start to affect our sleep, right? Sleep is the number one predictor of health. So, you know, that's one of those things that we need to also take care of. Tim 09:42There was a stat around the sleep connection that said it's like a virtuous cycle, right? That when people are getting better sleep, they are able to make more difficult decisions quickly. They're able to handle more stressful situations, as you say. But then also, if they get through those situations, if they are happy with their job, if they're content with their career, if they're happy with the staff that they've got, they can see up to 63% less sleep disturbances. In 2017 Northwestern did this study where they said, if you are satisfied at work, if you have less work stress, how does it impact your sleep? And they said it's well over a 50% increase that you can now put back into your day. So to me, that tells us that it's like you're getting the chance to not just refill your battery. It's like this virtuous cycle. It's getting better and better and better. Better sleep, a little more productive through the day. More productive through the day, less stress about taking an hour for yourself to go out and sweat. Erin 10:55Absolutely, and I mean, I can speak to that in my own personal journey, right? When I was downtown, I was 12-14 hours a day, face to face with clients, and I would get my hour workout in, you know, five days a week minimum. And people always ask me, how do you do it? I'm like, I love what I do. That's how I do it. And, yeah, when I go home at the end of a day, I'm invigorated, because I feel like I've made such an impact, and working in an environment that is positive, right, surrounded by great people, it just, it's that cycle that you just keep feeding in, and then you have great night's sleep, and they feed in again, and it feeds you, yeah. Tim 11:36Yeah. You know the challenge of being able to wake up on a Monday and be excited to get to work. It comes with its own challenges. I mean, you got to be careful not to work through your vacations and stuff. But you know, being excited and eager to do what you're doing with the people you want to do it with, there's no better way to feel like you are where you belong. And it's always surprising to me when there's people have yet to experience that, and they can just sit back and say, Wow, I really enjoyed that week. I can't wait to hit the ground running next week. And you know, I would say, I've got a brand new client, and he was telling me that, but we're working on capacity with him and his team, and I started talking about electric cars. And, you know, we have to work capacity from two sides. One is that, yeah, we have to have the environment and the systems and the head count and everything to be able to handle the work that we're doing. Or, you know, if it's just us, we need to have the flexibility to really rise to an occasion and operate at a greater output for short periods of time, or whatever that is. Yeah. Okay, that's your personal capacity. The next thing is, is your job and the people you work with and the quality of your team filling your bucket as you're doing that. And I said, it's like regenerative breaking. It's like the difference between having a an EV that can climb a hill and and handle those dips and yaws in the road to one that can do that and regenerate in the process when it's going down the other side. So that's what we're building into his practice. And I'm pretty happy with that metaphor. Actually, I'm gonna keep using that sucker. But, when you are face to face with clients who have these demands and they've got a lot at stake, what are some of the strategies that you suggest that can help them manage their responsibilities to themselves? Erin 13:39I mean, the best thing is, if you have control of your own schedule, I had one one person 10am every single morning, whether she was working out with me or whether she was just going for a walk around downtown, that was her time, and she blocked it off, and her entire team knew that 10am to 11am is her time. And I mean, that's an imperfect world that you can just be really hard headed about putting it in your schedule. I have another client that we discovered that he is a better parent, a better spouse when he takes a break between the work and returning home, so rather than sitting in a car, or like, you know, on the bus, takes time to walk every single day. If he can't walk, he, you know, comes for a workout with me, goes to the gym, but yeah, when he is working from home because a lot of us have hybrid models these days, he still takes that half an hour to 45 minutes to break up his work life and his home life, which I think is amazing. Yeah, recognizing that it doesn't have to be big, right? Sometimes it's a 15 minute walk in the morning before you have coffee, or while you're having coffee, pick one ritual that you're already doing and see if you can make it active. Tim 14:59Julie Freedman Smith, she's our parenting and family associate at TWE, I believe it was she who introduced me to the term transition time. Both for the kids, when you're going to ask them do something, you got to give them a bit of transition time. You got to help them switch gears. But also for me as a dad, I had to have that. And interestingly enough, I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to an old client. I mean, he's been around forever. We still coach, but we're more friends now than anything, and he does what you just said. He'll stop, and he will sit in the car and transition for like, 10 or 15 minutes. I think that's a really good strategy that he has. He's able to then, like, really clear his slate before he goes in and dads, but why not walk like, why not walk for that 15 minutes? Or, you know, what would I'm gonna suggest that to him? What would, what would the net benefit be if he did the exact same thing, but just didn't do it in his car? I mean–Erin 15:58Make it active. Tim 16:00Totally. Just, you know–Erin 16:02Just a small thing–Tim 16:04Little Erin Ashbacher boost to your day. Erin 16:06Right? Well, hey, you know, I have a client who's recovering from an ankle injury, and I'm like, you brush your teeth, how many times a day? Twice day? Okay, stand on one foot while you're brushing your teeth, right? Just a little thing that can start to have a bigger impact–Tim 16:21Sounds familiar? Erin. Erin 16:26I love finding ways to tweak your routine, right? It's already there. Let's add one thing. Tim 16:33That's awesome because the next question I was going to ask you was incorporating small little habits. So let's talk about that standing on one leg, standing alone one leg would be a total gimme. Like, why can't you do that when you're standing on two legs? You got an option, right or left, right? What would be some other give us more. Come on. Give me. Give me. Give me. Give me. Give me. Erin 16:54Thanks. One of the things that I gave one of my other clients was she had to get down to a filing cabinet. She's an older, older client. And I just like, instead of getting down onto your knees to search through that, like, is it possible to squat down to get there, right? Just changing the way that we're moving in the office even, right? Instead of using the stool all the time, maybe we stand up and reach and kind of get a little off balance in a safe way. I love making my meetings with clients and my meetings with friends more active, too. So I love a walking meeting, or if the weather permits, getting out on our bikes and taking like a nice cruisy bike side by side. We have beautiful pathways in the city, so makes it easy. Yeah. Tim 17:40My friends over at OSP, we just had the OSpluza, which they have done every year. I was there as a speaker for one of their very first ones. I think I was there in 2018, I want to say, but anyway, every year they've got this great event that is such an expression of their culture. But you're always moving. Last year we did a scavenger hunt around the zoo. So we did professional development for a day and a half. And then scavenger hunt, holy moly, it was a blast. And then this year– Erin 18:10Running around the zoo? Tim 18:14You know, it was crazy. It was timed. And then, and we put in a lot of steps. And then, and I was on new pegs, right, like I that was one year into my into my knee surgery. And so, man, I was gained because there was no way I would have been able to do that a year before that. And then this year, it was bowling. So it's funny, I thought of you during that, because we were, we went to the the bowling alley, and I had to put on those shoes. And I thought, Okay, I better do like, a full straight bend, and really bend this out. Because, as Erin knows, I mean, some of you might have heard this. I mean, I suffered a fall saving a hamster. It's a long story. Ended up with, you know, nine to 10 months of spinal damage, Hamster related spinal damage. So anyways, a little stiff. Let's just say this my form was coming back. But, you know, when you've got big hands and you've got to use a double x, not a regular bowler, but you've got to use a double x, old ball, they tend to be, you know, 14 to 15 pounds. So you're swinging this 14 to 15 pound thing. And if you've got any self respect, you know, you're going to do your best to do you know, even though it's just casual, you're gonna do your best. I'm fairly competitive anyway, so I was stretching beforehand, thinking Erin would tell me this. Erin 19:29My other favorite hack is staying hydrated. So especially if someone is coming into the gym and working out, lifting weights, and they're fairly new to it, or they're new to it again, obviously water is going to help us recover, and it's going to help, but even if we're sitting at our desk and we're not sore, just drinking lots of water forces us to get up and walk the office and go to the bathroom and then walk back. Yeah, so I'm a huge pusher of staying hydrated, which research shows that Staying hydrated also plays a vital role in our brain function and in our concentration. Tim 20:09Tell me this. I've tried many I still, I mean, I track most of the time. I have done the big jug thing. You know, I try to drink as much water as I can, but it's what's your personal favourite hack? And I mean, I'm still, I'm always looking for tricks, because I will forget to drink.Erin 20:30Right, if you're a visual person, having it right in front of you is pretty good. But I have clients that I set a reminder for them, I'm like, you should be drinking you know, one cup, 250 milliliters every 15 minutes. So I'm a sipper, but like, hey, if all you need is a 15-minute ding on your phone to tell you to drink some water, go for it. Tim 20:53Yeah, I'm not a sipper. I'm a guzzler. Like, I we've always had, uh, no TV where we eat dinner. That was always a rule for my wife and I and our kids, and we always have a pitcher of water on the table, and it's always full, and we often without thinking it, start off the meal with all of us sort of pouring a glass of water, because it's kind of nice to have people pour water for you, and then I always drain it, like I drain just I but that's just the way. I think it comes from working in the kitchens or something, when we used to get really hot and you would just or planting trees because–Erin 21:32You have time, take it. Tim 21:34Well, and you couldn't cool yourself any other way. So you're using this hydration as almost a cooling tool. But yeah, no, I'm not polite when it comes to I just it's kind of a race. I don't know if it's kind of a personal thing, but it's like–Erin 21:47I will finish my glass first. Tim 21:49I rarely put down a full glass or even a glass with any water left in it. Erin 21:55The other trick I have is that if you know, you're a tea sipper or a coffee sipper, that you always have a one-to-one ratio. I'm pretty hard about that, because caffeine is, uh, not great. It's okay, in small quantities, but people are drinking. I drink no water at all, but I drink two cups or two pots of coffee a day; maybe, switch that. Tim 22:18This sounding familiar again, Erin. Erin 22:18It's getting a bit personal. Tim 22:20It is, although my dentist always said, always have water when you're having tea, like, always order a coffee in a water, or always order a tea in a water, if for no other reason than the fact that you need to rinse that stuff off your teeth. Right? So all good tips. I'd be really interested when we publish this; if you've already listened, go to the posting for this on my LinkedIn account, and enter your best water hacks. And then we'll put those on a giveaway, and we'll make sure everybody gets, we'll doing one of in our newsletters. Hey, we'll put, you know, here's your top 20 water hacks, goldfish bowls, not just pretty, but delicious. Anyway. Cool. All right, let's keep going. So we've got a lot of good reasons why a person should be exercising in order to increase their capacity and recharge their brain and be resilient, and the data is fairly sound that this is valuable. The one thing I wanted to ask you about was this, and that is, you'd mentioned that you had leaders that have teams that are supportive of them going out for their walk, things like this. I would throw in the middle of all this that you're either feeling guilt or shame or discomfort or fear trying to take time for yourself and work out, or you feel like you're inconveniencing your staff, or you can't leave your team alone, or your days are far too full. You might be in an environment that simply will not afford you the time, and so look for design changes that you can make. You know, how do you increase the productivity of your staff so that you can take some time off? Are you doing everything for everybody else and covering other people's work? Or do you need to shuffle how things are done, or even the people that are doing it? Don't subsidize your team or organizational health, with your life, with your own health, because it's just not a good deal, and it's so often really unnecessary, and that terrible shit tornado that just tears us down into a vicious cycle, right? Erin 24:33I like to always say, don't be the person that if you win the lottery tomorrow, your entire team is going to fall apart, right? I used to say, get hit by a bus, but I'd like to be much more positive than that, so I'm going to say, win the lottery, right? So make sure that you're giving your team all the tools that they can be successful, and so that you can guilt free take that time, yeah. Tim 24:58Well, and also so that they can take that time. Right? Oh, and that raises a really interesting thing that you and I talked about last week, and that was, we're not just talking about professionals and people who are leading in an organizational capacity. We also have people that have new roles thrust upon them, right? And this could be, you know, you've got kids going to school, okay, we're just entered the school year, now you got a whole brand new way of parenting. You might be a stay at home parent and you need to you're at a whole different level. My son just he's had a knee injury, but we just found out that he's going to have to have meniscal repair. So my wife now is gearing up to, like, have to be a caregiver and focus on him for three to five months, because he's going to need more support. And you and I were talking about that in terms of the caregiver, whether you've got a, you know, a parent or I'm of the age where the parents are getting sick, talk a little bit about that. Erin 25:53I mean, we very easily when we were sitting on a plane. It's like, you know, you put your oxygen mask on first before you help others. And that concept rings true when it comes to our everyday life, but realistically, it's very easy to grab the oxygen mask when it's physically right in front of your face. When we take a look at putting on our own oxygen mask in our lives, it's much more difficult to understand those things, and there's tons of research that shows that caregivers are at higher risk for physical and mental health issues. They're at higher risk for sleep problems, and they're at higher risk for chronic conditions such as high blood pressure. So if those caregivers can think about being preventative and taking care of their mental and physical health before those things happen, then they can be better caregivers, right? Take care of yourself, take care of others. And so yeah, knowing that it's not selfish to take that time and carve out that so that then you can be better for those people that you're helping to take care of. So in your wife's case, your son, right, she needs to take care of her own physical and mental health so that she can help him when he's recovering. Tim 27:05Another client, their spouse, is going through a total knee replacement, like I did, so they've been asking me questions about it, and they're gearing up to be their caregiver for eight months. My advice to them was, don't just think about being a support to the other person. You as the caregiver, need to think about your caregivers. So can you increase your own support? Can you afford cleaners or something? Or can you make, can you make life a little bit easier? Or can you let yourself off the hook when it when it comes to, you know, putting out fancy meals, and instead, you know, opt for something that you can produce on mass or whatnot, or just ask for help, you know. Erin 27:43Wait, you can ask for help. Tim? Tim 27:46You can, you can risk some, some questionable lasagnas. But, yeah, you can, you can ask for help. All right, cool. So we've, so what have we covered here? If I think back to everything you've said, Erin, we're sitting at this time of the year where we've got a lot of things changing. People have new roles thrust upon them, new responsibilities, and they're feeling fatigued, and like so much in business, you know, we have to not think about the cost of taking time for ourselves. We have to think about it as an investment, and we have to say these things will pay back if we can just get started, even if that's small. Hydration is an easy place to start. Standing on one foot is an easy place to start, doing a squat instead of bending over is an easy place to start. Pretending you're tying your shoes but actually stretching before you bowl at a team-building event is an easy place to start. You know, make it easy, like, do the easy thing. Do the thing that doesn't always feel like it's the big, fancy new thing. Just do the easy thing. Erin 28:56I have a shout out to my dearest friend who this year, started every single morning with five sun salutations. So basically, just touch your toes, go into a plank, stand up. For those of you who don't do yoga and it's a two minute practice and it's made a huge difference in their lives. Tim 29:18Yeah, I think that's true, and I'll give a shout out quickly to you. You know, when I was coming back from this tkr, you said 20 minutes, Tim, just every day, an intentional 20 minutes. And I've managed to keep that up, regardless of what's been happening, and that, if nothing else is just says I did it. I did my 20 minutes. You know, even if it's not always stellar, but check I'm gonna start doing–Erin 29:42Something is better than nothing. Tim 29:44You know. And how often do we say, if it's not perfect, we're not gonna do it? I mean, barf, all right, cool. It's been great. So as I always ask, we've covered all this ground. If people were to take one thing away, if you were to see people transform in one way, if you had to ask it a simpler way, if you had one wish for people who are listening today, what would it be? Erin 30:10Take the disruption in the season or in the schedule as an opportunity to reassess and add in something new or change what you're doing, right? All summer long, I was on my bike, and it was amazing. And now that it's fall, it's getting a little bit cooler, and taking it as an opportunity to reassess my activity schedule and get back into the gym and lift some weights again. So it's okay to do that. Tim 30:32I love that. You know, pop the bubble. Change doesn't have to be a threat, right? It can be an opportunity. Cool now to continue on to our tradition. If you were to lob a question at our next guest, not exactly sure who that would be, why don't you fire one at me? Erin 30:53My question is, how do you stop your big, juicy challenge that you've been dreaming of doing from sitting on the shelf. How do you anchor that? Get into it? Tim 31:05Okay, so we've got some guests coming up that I think are going to be perfect to throw that at, so I'm looking forward to that. Okay, thank you very much. Erin, before we go tell people what you've got going on, anything you'd like to share that you're excited about. Erin 31:24Starting with Cochran minor hockey this fall, doing some team training. Very excited for their off ice season coming up. Yeah, just looking forward to a few changes in my personal life that maybe I'll share next time. Tim 31:37Yay, maybe you'll share next time. I'm going to throw one in there too, and that is that you've already helped several of the people that are my clients. And so if you're already doing leadership development, or you're already doing personal coaching or something like this, layer in, it's a great time to layer in the physical aspect, especially if it's the number one thing that bugs you, if it's the thing that's really got you down, no amount of professional coaching is going to overcome grief of a bad physical situation. Start with the biggest constraint, right? And if that's your sense of self, at least work at it in parallel, which is what I'm so happy for you to be on the team. So thanks so much. All right. Well, I think that wraps us up. It's so awesome to have you back. Erin 32:29It's great to be back. Tim, thank you. Tim 32:31Okay, well, we look forward to talking to you, hopefully right before the new year, if not right early in 25. Erin 32:37Sounds great. Tim 32:39Listen for updates and look for Erin to be offering in some writing and some posts as we move forward throughout the year. If you want to follow us, you're welcome to sign up to our newsletter, and in the meantime, Erin, go get him. Tim 32:56Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in, in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading.

"Encouraging God's Family" 08/25/2024 - PM

FBC Douglas Sermons

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 25, 2024 46:03

Sunday PM ServiceHebrews 10:19-25I. Encouragement Through FaithII. Encouragement Through FellowshipIII. Encouragement Through FaithfulnessSupport the Show.

family encouraging 25i

0.21g Sayings of the Savior Part VII: A Look at Luke

The Popeular History Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 1, 2024 80:07

IMAGE DESCRIPTION: Saint Luke the Evangelist. Russian Eastern Orthodox icon from Russia. 18th century. Wood, tempera. Via Wikimedia Commons. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/ultraviolet-light-reveals-scientists-hidden-bible-passage-1500-years-later (for Luke) Unique passages: https://www.julianspriggs.co.uk/pages/UniquePassages Thanks Biblehub.com's parallel chapters tool. Words of Jesus ("All the Red Letter Scriptures") https://www.jesusbelieverjd.com/all-the-red-letter-scriptures-of-jesus-in-the-bible-kjv/ Parallel Passages in the Gospels https://www.bible-researcher.com/parallels.html#sect1 The Eye of the Needle (crossword/sudoku feedback): https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-25583,00.html#:~:text=The%20%22Eye%20of%20the%20Needle,in%20order%20to%20enter%20heaven Camel needle w/Aquinas citation (of Anselm of Canterbury)-- Anselm of Canterbury as cited in Catena Aurea, Thomas Aquinas, CCEL Edition. https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/ The Widow's Mite: https://numismatics.org/pocketchange/the-poor-widows-mite/ Miracles of Jesus reference list: https://sunnyhillschurch.com/3301/the-37-miracles-of-jesus-in-chronological-order/ TRANSCRIPT Welcome to the Popeular History Podcast: History through Pope Colored Glasses. My name is Gregg and this is episode 0.21g: Sayings of the Savior Part VII: A Look at Luke. All of these aught episodes are made to let us build our Pope-colored glasses so we can use the same lenses when we look at history together. If you're lost, start at the beginning! Today we continue our Sayings of the Savior series with a look at Luke, covering everything Jesus said in that Gospel that we haven't yet discussed–so leaving off things like the miracles we did in 0.20 and the parables and other sayings we did in earlier Sayings of the Savior installments- so we'll be leaving you in suspense right before the concluding few chapters discussing Jesus' death and His (spoiler alert) resurrection, which we'll cover as we finish the remaining mysteries of the rosary in future Catholic worldbuilding episodes. We already covered the first three chapters of Luke gradually from Episode 0.14 to Episode 0.19, and we'll cover the last three chapters as we talk through the Passion and the Resurrection (oops, spoilers). Which leaves Luke chapters 4 through 21 as our focus for today. Luke 4 starts with the Temptation in the Desert. As you know by now, it's not unusual to find parallel scenes in the Gospels, especially in the so-called synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and fitting with that pattern, we saw a version of this scene in Matthew, and it actually made an appearance in Mark as well, though the Mark version was so abbreviated it didn't actually assign any dialog to Jesus or Satan so I didn't zoom in on it–after all, this is Sayings of the Savior. Anyways, let's see Luke's temptation scene and note what differences we see from Matthew's version. In the first temptation, Matthew has Satan referring to multiple stones Jesus could turn into bread after his 40 day fast, while Luke has just one stone. I'm sure there's commentary that discusses this difference--it's the Bible, there's commentary for everything– but unlike the Mark episode, I'm not going to go into quite that level of detail with Luke. It's worth noting that when Christ responds with LUKE "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone.'” GREGG he leaves off the second half of the quote from Deuteronomy 8:3 “but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.” which Matthew had included. Then, the second and third temptation we saw in Matthew are reversed. In Luke, Satan first tells Jesus he can give him all sorts of power if He worships him, which, I mean, I guess things would have been pretty different if Jesus had taken him up on that. Like, serious plot twist. But nah. He says LUKE “It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only” GREGG and then the third temptation in Luke's ordering is the testing of God's protection of Jesus. Rather than seeing if God will save Him, Jesus says: LUKE: It is said: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'” GREGG After seeing the devil off, Jesus begins his traveling and preaching ministry and soon enough winds up in his hometown. This is a scene that showed up in Matthew and Mark as well, the one where Jesus notes that no prophet is welcome in his hometown. In Luke it's more thorough and frankly dramatic. Long quote ahead, let's get into it: LUKE 4 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked. 23Jesus said to them, "Surely you will quote this proverb to me: 'Physician, heal yourself!' And you will tell me, 'Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.'" 24"Truly I tell you," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah's time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed--only Naaman the Syrian.” 28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way. GREGG So, just to recap, we have Jesus preaching a bit of a softball passage from Isaiah, promising good news to the poor. That was a long quote, so let's hear just that passage as a refresher: “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor” The good news part is clear enough In terms of freedom and healing, but what is the year of the Lord's favor mentioned? By all accounts it's the Jubilee year described in Leviticus 25. You know how the seventh day is the Sabbath, a day of rest for the people? Well the seventh year was a “day”of rest for the fields, where they were to lie fallow, that is, go untilled and unworked, letting nature take its course for a year. Crops could not be harvested in an organized way, though what grows could be casually consumed by the owners, or by the needy, or really by anyone, or by animals. Going further, personal debts among the people of Israel were cancelled in a levelling move. This custom is still in force in much of Israel, where it is called the Shmita. Of course, following the quasi-precept of “two Jews, three opinions”, application slash abrogation of this practice varies. Anyways, the Jubilee year was not the seventh year, the Smhita I mentioned, but rather the fiftieth year, being the year after the seventh set of seven years, because symbolism. In the Jubilee year, things were even more intense, for instance going beyond personal debt forgiveness to returning sold land to the tribe of origin and to freeing Israelites who had sold themselves into slavery, basically a factory reset for society. But note, this was only enslaved Israelites who were to be freed in the Jubilee year, the “year of the Lord's favor”. And this is where we turn back to Luke 4, because Jesus pivots the conversation away from the people of Israel to the fringes and even beyond the borders of Jewish society, to Sidon and Syria. But sending the good news to the gentiles is quite a bridge too far for his audience, who prepare to kill him in their rage. Like I said, quite the scene, and it's easy to understand why skeptics might place it as having been written after Christianity had already begun to spread among the gentiles and catch flack for doing so on the home front. My main narrative episodes haven't gotten far, but we've already started to see some of that tension, and it will only grow. Of course, I've committed to getting my Catholic Worldbuilding stuff done before I dive back into the main narrative stuff, and to do that we need to get through the rest of Luke, and to do *that* we at least need to get through the rest of Luke 4. After escaping the assembled mob, apparently by miraculous means of some kind because it simply says He walked right through the crowd, Jesus proceeds to do other miracles in towns around the region. The people who lived near Peter's mother-in-law must have really appreciated the assist, because in stark contrast to his hometown reception they tried to keep him from leaving. He responded: LUKE 4 “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” GREGG Luke 5 opens with Jesus calling his disciples to follow Him. We covered the miraculous catch of fish that got Peter on board when we did our roundup of miracles, and other assorted miracles carry us through to Verse 27, when we have the Call of Matthew, known to Luke as Levi. Matthew vs. Levi Is worth a minute. Matthew is the more common name for this disciple, and may have been his Christian name. But Levi is the name preferred here in Luke and also in Mark. One explanation I saw in multiple places is that Matthew is a Greek name while Levi is Hebrew, an explanation that suffers from being wrong, as Matthew is Hebrew for “gift of God”. A perhaps more successful explanation is that Matthew was a Levite, you know, someone from the Tribe of Levi, and things got a bit garbled. Or there was a name change that just didn't get recorded in Scripture or in any other tradition for that matter.. Matthew and Levi being separate individuals seems to be the least popular theory, so regardless of the particulars, your takeaway from this should be the same as it was when we talked about this last episode: they're the same person. Either way, here's the call of Matthew *cough* Levi: LUKE 5 27Jesus went out and saw a tax collector by the name of Levi sitting at his tax booth. "Follow me," Jesus said to him, 28and Levi got up, left everything and followed him. GREGG OK, maybe I didn't need to go into all that detail for two words of Jesus, but hey, what's done is done, so “follow me” across a few more verses, where Jesus gets questioned about the company He's chosen to keep: LUKE 5 Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” GREGG That's good news for us sinners, I can tell you that much. Luke 5 finishes with some parables, which we covered in the Parables roundup earlier in this series, so on to Luke 6, which opens with the grain-picking scene we've seen a couple of times already. SYNOPTIC ROUNDUP, you know the drill [airhorn], except I'm skipping rehashing the other two accounts, just, you know, general reminder that synoptic parallels are a thing. Anyways, let's get another dose of that “Lord of the Sabbath” action: LUKE 6 1One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 3Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 5Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” GREGG Oh yeah, good stuff. Check my Matthew and Mark episodes if you want more commentary on it, I want to buckle down and get to John. Of course by that I mean John the Baptist, whose inquiry gives us of the next section we need to cover. Of course, as is so often the case with these synoptic Gospels, this isn't actually a whole new section. This next chunk closely matches a parallel passage in Matthew 11. If you want to follow along, in Matthew it's the start of that Chapter, while in Luke we're at chapter 7 verse 18: LUKE 7 18John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else? 20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?'” 21At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. GREGG Oh look there's a batch of miracles that didn't make it into my miracles roundup, at least not directly. It's pretty vague, and it's unique to Luke. This small difference is exactly the sort of thing that gets analyzed to try to understand the relationship between Matthew and Luke, and like every other bit of Scriptural analysis you can find someone taking pretty much any conceivable stance. In any case, the reference to those timely miracles helps set the stage for the next verse, which is back to closely paralleling Matthew: LUKE 7 22So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.” 24After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 25If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear expensive clothes and indulge in luxury are in palaces. 26But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27This is the one about whom it is written: "'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' 28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” GREGG Now, I went back and checked my commentary on Matthew's version of this scene, and it was basically nothing. Which is fair, I was pretty deadline-crunched at the time and knew I'd be revisiting it here. But it's definitely worth noting that both passages have John the Baptist, who Jesus proclaims as a great, or even the greatest, prophet, both passages have this spiritual giant publicly uncertain about whether Jesus is the Messiah. You could perhaps argue this was a ruse, but John seems to have been a straight shooter- that's why he's sending delegates from prison after all rather than asking himself. So it seems to be a genuine question. Which means if you're under the impression that having faith or even being the greatest prophet ever automatically means you have no remaining questions and can see all of God's plan perfectly, apparently not. After all, John had been the one ministering at Jesus' baptism, where Heaven had opened and the Spirit had come down as a dove and God's own voice had told Jesus: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” And yet now John is asking, publicly: “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?" There's a lesson in there on vulnerability and openness to God's plan. Or perhaps a lesson in how everyone can encounter uncertainty, no matter how certain their role seems. We'll see Jesus go even further in questioning during the Passion narrative when the time comes. Skipping a few verses of parenthetical commentary that can only be found in Luke, let's pick back up at Luke 7 verse 31: LUKE 7 31Jesus went on to say, "To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: "'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.” GREGG If you aren't willing to listen, you'll find any excuse to dismiss the message. But the wise will be shown by making the right choice. After wrapping that up, Jesus goes on a bit of a parable tour until he winds up with a bit more family awkwardness In Luke 8:19: LUKE 8 19 Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting CORRECT to see you.” 21 He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice.” GREGG Ouch, but also yay, Jesus doesn't put His earthly family above others. Which is good news If you didn't start out as His family, though it might sting a little if you did. The rest of Luke 8 is a bunch of previously-discussed miracles, so we're on to Luke 9: LUKE 9 9 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5 If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere. GREGG This Isn't the first or even the second time we've seen these basic marching orders, but it actually is the last as John is, well, a very different Gospel, as we'll see in our next worldbuilding episode. Anyways, after feeding the 5,000 we get to verse 18, where Luke's version of Peter's confession begins. As with Mark, don't get too excited: LUKE 9 18 Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, “Who do the crowds say I am?” 19 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.” 20 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “God's Messiah.” 21 Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.” GREGG So that's three for three on synoptic Gospels having Peter describe Jesus as the Messiah. Only Matthew did the keys thing, though. Also note the messianic secret trope popping up again- Jesus will apparently reverse his gag order after the Passion, because the Book of Acts- which was also written by Luke, or at least by whoever wrote Luke, will be all about telling everyone Jesus is the Messiah. Immediately after that exchange, Jesus starts talking about his future, and it's not rosy: LUKE 9 22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26 Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” GREGG This is all closely paralleling Matthew, and Mark as well, though as usual Mark was a bit shorter, skipping the last verse about some standing there not tasting death before they see the Kingdom. Again, you can see why early Christians were basically a doomsday cult expecting the end sooner rather than later. Certainly *your* end will come, so, you know, keep that in mind. We're going to skip the transfiguration since that's its own mystery of the rosary with its own episode, and there's another miracle account after that. So skipping along, come with me to Luke 9:43: LUKE 9 While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it. GREGG If my episode on Mark is still fresh in your mind, you may already predict where this is going, as this particular section is a close Mark and Luke parallel. Matthew split things up in different ways but for both Mark and Luke the conversation with a child and being the greatest in the kingdom follows immediately after Jesus states what will become of him, leaving the disciples too afraid to ask. Let's carry on with the next verse: LUKE 9 46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. 48 Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For it is the one who is least among you all who is the greatest.” GREGG The next verse is a bit of a random aside, but an important one as I mentioned before when it came up in Mark: LUKE 9 49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” 50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” GREGG Skipping ahead to verse 57, we have some stray sayings that underline the urgency of following Christ: LUKE 9 57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” 59 He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” 60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” 62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” GREGG A bit harsh, but Jesus is like that sometimes. Luke 10 opens with an long section on Jesus' next project, sending out seventy-two disciples, or seventy according to some manuscripts. Some may recall a previous seventy vs seventy-two discussion when we talked about the Septuagint, and I expect there's a reason for that parallel, but either way that's not the particular rabbit hole I want to go down here today. Instead, I want to note that we can have some fun with this Luke-only passage, and that we wouldn't be the first to do so. You see, seventy is a long but not completely impractical number of folks to list off, and while Luke doesn't give names, there are plenty of extrabiblical sources assigning names and biographical details to some or all of the seventy. This passage discussing Jesus sending out seventy disciples was especially useful for ancient or wannabe ancient dioceses that couldn't trace back to a specific Apostle. Instead, lo and behold, turns out their founder was one of the unnamed seventy. Boom presto, a biblical founder! Of course that's the skeptical read, it could well be that some such stories are true. But there are enough names assigned to the 70 that they certainly aren't *all* true, kind of like how there are at least four heads of John the Baptist floating around. In the end, as a reminder, Catholics are generally free to believe or disbelieve in the authenticity and or efficacy of any particular relic or tradition as long as they accept the fundamental teachings and authority of the Catholic Church. In terms of the promised fun we can have, I'd like to announce a little side project, a game where I share a story of someone spreading Christianity and the next episode we'll discuss whether it's real or made up and what the sources are. We'll start that at the end of this episode. For now, let's hear about the seventy slash seventy-two: LUKE 10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road. 5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.' 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house. GREGG Someone tell the Jehovah's Witnesses… LUKE 10 8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.' 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. 13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. 16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” 18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. GREGG That verse is the root of some of the quirky snake-handling churches in Appalachia by the way… LUKE 10 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. 22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.” GREGG Those last two verses touch on an interesting discussion throughout Church history, namely the fate of those who lived before the time of Christ. Could they be saved? Observant Jews of the time, yes, certainly. But those who never encountered Christianity or Judaism because of when or where they lived historically has proven a bit of an awkward question for the Church. The “well you better go tell them” impulse has long served to recruit missionaries, but on the other end many did and do argue that it hardly seems fair to expect folks to follow what through no fault of their own they've never been exposed to. Granted it's less of an issue nowadays when very few folks worldwide haven't at least heard of Christ, but the question remains. Certainly the Catholic Church insists that all humans who are saved are saved through Christ, there's no other way. And yet the Church also affirms that God is not bound by time, as evidenced by the defined belief required of all Catholics in the Immaculate Conception, where the Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of sin from the moment of her conception. Obviously that took place before the Incarnation, so it's not like the years going from BC to AD is a firm barrier for the saving action of Christ in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Indeed, by implication, the previously mentioned Jews who awaited the grand opening of heaven were able to do so by the work of Christ according to the Church, though given how many horrible things have been done to Jews in the name of Christ through the years that isn't something that tends to be emphasized. In the end, I think you probably know me well enough by now to correctly guess that I land on the hopeful end of this discussion. By one means or another, all through Christ, I hope for all. But to be very clear, that's my hope, and for what it's worth. Pope Francis' hope as well according to a recent interview, but it's not established Church teaching. Skipping past the parable of the Good Samaritan, let's go to verse 38 for Martha and Mary, an exchange that's my go-to analogy for the two basic types of service to the Church, with Martha being the “active” type and Mary the “contemplative”. LUKE 38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. 40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!” 41 “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.” GREGG The first part of Luke 11 covers Luke's take on the Our Father-covered in 0.21b- and the Friend at Midnight covered in our parables roundup. So skip along to Verse 9, which parallels Matthew's Sermon on the Mount, so it will sound familiar: LUKE 11 9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” GREGG Skip ahead again, this time to verse 24, because verses 14-23 were covered under miracles: LUKE 24 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.' 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.” 27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” 28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” GREGG There's a reminder that relapsing can be worse than the initial lapse, and a nice compliment session preserved only in Luke. But then the tone shifts, and the rest of the chapter has parallels in Matthew: LUKE 11 29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here GREGG Then there's a comparatively light lamp analogy, which I kind of covered during the Sermon on the Mount commentary, but not in its entirety, so I'm giving it all to you here: LUKE 11 33 “No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. 34 Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are healthy, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are unhealthy, your body also is full of darkness. 35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. 36 Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be just as full of light as when a lamp shines its light on you.” GREGG And now as we get back to a more challenging tone, and as Jesus targets the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law specifically, I want to give the same general note that I gave for the parallel verses in Matthew: do not take these verses out of context to justify antisemitism, which has no place in the Catholic Church, or really in the world. For one thing, keep in mind Jesus is a Jew speaking to fellow Jews here. Anyways, let's continue: LUKE 37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal. 39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. 42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. 43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces. 44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.” 45 One of the experts in the law answered him, “Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also.” 46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. 47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.” GREGG Let's take a moment to reflect on that last line: “this generation will be held responsible for it all”. It's surprisingly harsh, even for a surprisingly harsh Jesus, for Him to hold the generation he was talking to responsible for all the blood of all the prophets that has been shed from the beginning of the world. But there it is. I can see a case being made for these verses as part of a theological justification for original sin, though really the key verse for that is Romans 5:12, which we'll talk about later. Either way, given the emphasis on “this generation”, I don't think that's what's going on here, as original sin doesn't like, target specific generations. So, what's up? Why is Jesus focusing in on the present generation, at least the present generation as of His lifetime? Well, there's the key. It's His generation. Jesus is there, and all of the sin of history, past, present, and future, will be brought to account through Him. Jesus, as always, is the answer. It's not that the world was especially sinful in the first century AD. But the answer to all sin was walking the earth then. *That* is why it's a generation that deserves a particular singling out. Of course, that reflection- my own theological musing I should say, which is a dangerous thing to do and I defer to any correction that may come my way– anyways that reflection should not detract from the straightforward fact that Jesus is really taking the Pharisees and Teachers of the law to task here LUKE 11 52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” 53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say. 1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs GREGG Fortunately no one in our day falls into religious hypocrisy anymore, right? …right? Anyways, the next few verses, once again paralleled with Matthew, put things into context, while weaving in hints of future persecution: LUKE 12 4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 8 “I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 11 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.” GREGG After a break for a parable, the overall theme resumes in verse 22: LUKE 12 22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? 27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. 32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. GREGG Did you catch one of the most challenging things Jesus says? “Sell your possessions and give to the poor” This isn't the only place Jesus says that, but it hits a little harder when he's giving it as general counsel rather than as specific advice to a rich young man looking for specific advice on how to live well. If you have more than you need, your excess needs to go to those who lack. You will ultimately have to account not only for what you did, but what you didn't do. If you've seen Schindler's List, think of his regret after all he's done, that he didn't sell the car to do more. When your life is done, what regrets will You have? I know I need to do more, part of this project is to remind myself of that and to embarrass myself publicly for my shortcomings. Listen to Jesus' message, don't get hung up on the messenger. A few parables take us forward to verse 49, a source of top notch dad jokes about our matchless king. But Jesus goes beyond that, preaching division. His message is hard, it will not be universally popular. LUKE 12 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” 54 He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It's going to rain,' and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time? 57 “Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” LUKE 13 13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” GREGG That excerpt took us into Luke 13, which continues with parables and a miracle until verse 23, which is, frankly, basically the start of another parable, but not one I covered in the parables roundup so we'll do it here. LUKE 13 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.' “But he will answer, ‘I don't know you or where you come from.' 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' 28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” GREGG I recently saw one of the first verses in that passage cited as pointing towards the idea of Hell being full. After all, “many I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.” Is fairly clear, and even accounting for Jesus' action as the owner of the house, in this and elsewhere ultimately those who are out on the cold are truly out in the cold. As much as I freely admit I don't get the logic of hell being populated, I also freely admit that the idea of it being empty is an exegetical stretch given passages like this. In the end, God reigns and I do not. I know what God asks of me, and I do it. As much as I like to know and to talk, I accept that I don't have and cannot have all knowledge. Anyways, Jesus continues with a lament over Jerusalem we saw in Matthew, which Luke supplies with a little more context: LUKE 13 31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.” 32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.' 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem! 34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'” GREGG And now with that note looking to Jesus' future- something he definitely keeps doing throughout the Gospels- we have something of an intermission, because Luke 14, 15, and 16 are all so full of parables that we've already covered along with all of Jesus' words from those chapters. Luke 17 opens with yet another parable, and then a miracle, so we're actually regrouping at Luke 17:20, where Jesus talks about the upcoming kingdom and talks about the end times, always fuel for a discussion, though I am skeptical about how productive such discussions are, given how Jesus opens the discussion by noting that the coming of the kingdom cannot be observed. And really, if there's something you'd be doing differently if you knew the world was ending--honestly that's probably something you should be doing *now*, because your life will end very soon in the grand scheme of things, and you can't rule out today. Anyways, let's resume: LUKE 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,' or ‘There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” 22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!' or ‘Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [KJV] 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” GREGG Oh, hope you don't mind me throwing in a little bit more KJV there. I would have announced it in advance but I was kind of on a roll with that transition and didn't want to kill the vibe. I'm no scripture scholar but my guess is the reason the KJV keep having verses the NIV is skipping is because back in the day folks were more reluctant to identify a passage as an addition due to manuscript evidence, you know, just in case. Better safe than sorry. But again, I'm no expert. Now, if I ever do get a budget for this beyond basic hosting fees I do have an expert in mind, so periodic reminder I do have a Popeular Patreon kicking around somewhere. In any event, that's it for Luke 17, and we can basically skip the first half of Luke 18, since that's a couple parables and related stuff we've already addressed. In Luke 18 verse 18, we've got a familiar question, not only familiar because it already came up in both Matthew and Mark, but it's actually already come up in Luke as well, as part of the runup to the parable of the Good Samaritan. That parable was split off from the other synoptics, being present only in Luke despite being extremely famous. But this time around, the passage is a close parallel to both Matthew and Mark. Let's go! LUKE 18 18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'” 21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?” 27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.” 28 Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!” 29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.” GREGG We treated the “eye of the needle” thing almost embarrassingly thoroughly last episode, so refer back to my Mark commentary for detail on that. The ending simply promising a much greater reward for giving things up to follow Jesus is a mild tweak of the “first shall be last” thing we saw concluding this passage in Matthew and Mark, for what it's worth. Next up, Jesus gives the third prediction of his death he's given in Luke: LUKE 18 31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about. GREGG Jesus predicts his death three times in each of the synoptic Gospels, so that being the third and final prediction is a sign we're getting close. Chapter 18 finishes with a miracle, so we're on to Chapter 19, which opens with the second account of Jesus calling a tax collector to follow him present in Luke. And unlike the call of Matthew slash Levi, this call of Zaccheus is *only* present in Luke. LUKE 19 19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way. 5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly. 7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.” 8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” GREGG I mentioned a bit ago we were getting close to the end of things for today, and another sign that we're getting close is that the next thing we get to cover, after skipping another parable, is Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, which is liturgically covered in the Palm Sunday observances that kick off Holy Week, aka the week leading up to Easter Sunday. Let's hear what Luke has to say, starting at verse 28: LUKE 19 28 After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29 As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30 “Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?' say, ‘The Lord needs it.'” 32 Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33 As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?” 34 They replied, “The Lord needs it.” 35 They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. 36 As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. 37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen: 38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!” 40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.” 41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you.” 45 When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling. 46 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.'” 47 Every day he was teaching at the temple. But the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the leaders among the people were trying to kill him. 48 Yet they could not find any way to do it, because all the people hung on his words. GREGG From the classic handwaive of “the master has need of it” to the admittedly brief account of Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the Temple, there's a lot of good stuff in there, but nothing especially new, all things we basically saw in Matthew and Mark. Similarly, the opening verses of Luke 20 are also close parallels of the other synoptic gospels. But hey, you know the drill, let's hear Luke tell it: LUKE 20 One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts and proclaiming the good news, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him. 2 “Tell us by what authority you are doing these things,” they said. “Who gave you this authority?” 3 He replied, “I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?” 5 They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,' he will ask, ‘Why didn't you believe him?' 6 But if we say, ‘Of human origin,' all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet.” 7 So they answered, “We don't know where it was from.” 8 Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.” GREGG The next few verses are taken up by the Parable of the Talents, so we'll skip that and go on to more close synoptic parallel passages starting in Verse 20. If you're wondering, we're parallelling Matthew 22 and Mark 12 here: LUKE 20 20 Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?” 23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 “Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?” “Caesar's,” they replied. 25 He said to them, “Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.” 26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent. GREGG Yes, as you'll recall, giving God what is God's means giving God everything, but at the same time, like, pay your taxes. The parallels continue with the next section LUKE 20 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?” 34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” 39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!” 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions. 41 Then Jesus said to them, “Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”' 44 David calls him ‘Lord.' How then can he be his son?” GREGG Yes, all closely paralleling Matthew 22 and Mark 12 still, both of which we've discussed. For what it's worth, John is going to be something quite different. In any event, the last bit of Luke 20 is absent from Matthew, only parallelled in Mark 12: LUKE 20 45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, 46 “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” GREGG Luke 21 opens with another section we that we didn't see in Matthew but covered in Mark, namely the Widow's Offering: LUKE 21 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.” GREGG I do love the message there, namely that God sees and accounts for effort when it comes to our actions, including our giving. Like I said, the Widow's Offering was in Mark too so I went into some more detail last episode. As the chapter continues, the parallels with Matthew resume, now in Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark 14. Overall the theme is the end times, fairly appropriate given the transition to the Passion that will come in the next chapter LUKE 21 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.” 7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?” 8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,' and, ‘The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

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OUR PHONE ADDICTION

Perfectly Unfinished Conversations | It's Good Enough, Let's Go!

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2024 44:35

In this episode, Coach Jo and Coach Kim dive into how social media and phone addiction affect our mental health, creativity, and relationships. They share personal stories of their own struggles with phone addiction, highlighting how it often leads to wasted time, shorter attention spans, and negative feelings from constant comparison. They emphasize the importance of setting boundaries to protect our mental and emotional well-being and offer practical tips for unplugging and creating space from technology. The conversation also touches on finding a healthy balance between technology use for work and personal growth.Jo and Kim also discuss their concerns about phone usage, both for themselves and their children. They explore how screen time impacts attention spans, brain development, and overall life quality, and consider the unique pressures faced by young moms in the digital age. In this episode, you'll get tips for setting limits on screen time and creating distance between yourself and your devices. You'll be inspired by the benefits of a digital detox and the importance of being present in life, work, and relationships. If there is one thing you take away from this episode is the importance of being present in life, work, and relationships, and the value of unplugging from technology to foster personal growth and well-being.Resources discussed in this episode:Joe's Social MediaAtomic Habits - James Clear--Contact Joely Churchill and Kim Berube | Iron Lab: Website: IronLabLacombe.comInstagram: Iron.Lab.LacombeFacebook: IronLabLacombeCoach Jo Instagram: @CoachJoChurchCoach Kim Instagram: @CoachKimBerubeCourse: Metabolic Blueprint--Transcript Coach Jo 00:09Welcome to Perfectly Unfinished Conversations, the Iron Lab podcast with Coach Jo… Coach Kim 00:14…and Coach Kim… Coach Jo 00:15Where you ride shotgun with us as we have raw, real, unfiltered, and unfinished conversations about trying to eat, sleep, train, and live with some integrity in a messy, imperfect life. Coach Kim 00:27We're all about creating a strong support system, taking radical personal responsibility, having fun, and being authentic. And one of the most common themes you're going to find in this podcast is the idea that we create positive momentum in our life, by doing what we call b-minus work. Coach Jo 00:45We're making gains and getting ahead and loving life without self-sabotaging our goals by striving for perfection. We get it done by moving ahead… Coach Kim 00:55…before we're ready… Coach Jo 00:56…when we aren't feeling like it… Coach Kim 00:58…and without hesitation. Coach Jo 1:00Be sure to subscribe now on Apple or Spotify, so you don't miss a single episode. It's good enough. Let's go. Coach Kim 01:10Welcome back. It's episode five of Perfectly Unfinished Conversations. And this episode is all about my crazy phone addiction. Coach Jo 01:25I'm laughing because that was, that was just not practiced or anything. Coach Kim 01:30Well I don't want to. I'm always practicing speaking from the “I”, like, I can't offer up that it's “our” crazy phone addiction, because that would be speaking for you. And maybe you don't feel like you're addicted to your phone. But I have noticed that I'm resentful about how attached I am to my phone. Coach Jo 01:48Yea, I gotcha. I mean, it is that time of the age of human, where we are all looking into these little screens. And I, we could say that we're not attached to them. But when you really truly look at the bigger picture of it all, I guarantee most of us would silently put up our hand with everyone's eyes closed be like it's me. I'm addicted as well. Coach Ki. 02:08Well, so, let's talk about how this started. Why I wanted to have a podcast about this specific topic and, and it's because I was having a bubble bath, I take my phone in the bathtub. It's probably dumb. I've wrecked more electronic things in water than I… Coach Jo 02:25She has. This is her second laptop. Coach Kim 02:28But it's like relaxation, decompress time. So I run a bubble bath I get in and then I scroll and I watch and I listen and I read and I post and I do all kinds of stuff. It's just the way that it goes. And I had this moment, you know, in meditation when people talk about witnessing themselves, witnessing themselves think or witnessing themselves sitting in the room where they kind of for a flick of a second they get like a perspective where they see themself in a way, like where they're thir person. Yeah, like, it's hard to explain. But I had this moment in the bathtub where it was almost like a kind of zoned out where my vision got deep. And I could see the phone in my hand. But I could also see like the other side of the room. And I could see myself this, you know, the bigness of the bathroom inside the house inside the town inside the world. And here's me in the bathtub, staring at this black fucking screen. And I was like, it was like this was like, I don't know how to describe it. But that's kind of like, it was like witnessing myself zone out, using up my time staring into this phone falling down the rabbit hole. Coach Jo 3:48And how did that make you feel? Coach Kim 3:50Well, it was just like it. It was just the realization that I mean, it's one thing to lay in the bathtub and soak and you know, shave your legs and all that kind of stuff. It's another thing to lay in the bathtub, and then fall into the abyss of, of somebody else's bullshit or not even bullshit. I mean, there's lots of great stuff out there, but like it's wasting time. Like it was like it was this moment of like, I could be doing other things. And here I am. Scrolling, looking at other people's dumb stuff. Coach Jo 04:21You know, I've heard you say before, you know, I can easily be in a bath for up to a whole hour. You know, I just enjoy my time. Now my question to you is, is how much of that is Doom scrolling?, Coach Kim 04:31Well, yeah totally. And you call it Doom scrolling, but I don't really know what that means. Like Doom scrolling, because I'm not seeking out bad stuff. Coach Jo 04:39No, no, it doesn't mean bad. It just means like rabbit hole. You just keep getting deeper deeper, deeper and then before you know it all of a sudden you'v...

spotify health apple training fitness strength self care nutrition doom lab scrolling phone addiction red deer lacombe coach kim central alberta 25i 27we

Jeff Massone - Distraction and The Death of Development

Sweet On Leadership

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 17, 2024 46:46

Welcome to another insightful episode of the Sweet on Leadership Podcast. Tim Sweet hosts leadership coach Jeff Massone. Their conversation delves into the complexities of personal and professional growth, focusing on overcoming distractions and fostering positive influences. They start by dissecting the pervasive impact of social media and continuous news cycles on our mindset and productivity.Throughout their discussion, Jeff underscores the importance of intentional relationships, urging listeners to surround themselves with supportive and motivating individuals. He provides strategies for minimizing negative influences both in professional settings and personal lives, emphasizing the concept of signal-to-noise ratio—where the key lies in filtering out distractions to prioritize valuable information. Tim and Jeff challenge conventional corporate training methods, advocating instead for personalized coaching that aligns with individual strengths and aspirations.Drawing from insights in Marcus Buckingham's "Love and Work," they highlight the significance of understanding unique differences in job satisfaction. They explore Patrick Lencioni's team-building strategies, emphasizing their adaptability to foster deeper team cohesion and commitment. Ultimately, Tim and Jeff stress that effective leadership isn't about rigid adherence to rules but about cultivating individualized paths toward leadership fluency and competency. Through intentional choices and strategic focus, listeners are encouraged to navigate their leadership journey with clarity and purpose.About Jeff MassoneJeff Massone is a dynamic and accomplished leader with a proven 20-year track record as a project leader in corporate America, including professional training as a coach, trainer, and speaker on leadership through the John Maxwell Team.Resources discussed in this episode:Love and Work by Marcus BuckinghamPatrick LencioniJohn MaxwellGood Will HuntingLeaders Eat Last by Simon SinekTED Talks--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Jeff Massone | Prepared Leader Consulting WebsiteInstagramFacebookLinkedIn--TranscriptJeff 00:01How do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows? And from not, you know, watching Social Media, yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development. You become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books because I have all my notes in them. They're reminding me of a situation. Tim 00:26I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, area leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 37. Tim 01:00Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I am really happy to be inviting a brand new friend that was introduced to me just a few days ago. But I mean, man, Jeff, we've hit it off, I think. Professionally, you and I are just, we're on the same wavelength. Jeff 01:16100%. I mean, we had talked the other day, I had kind of really wished we were recording at that point. But here we are today. And you know, really ready to dive in. Tim 01:26The term you use, which I really loved was leadership geek, if we're going to geek out about something geeking out on leadership is one of my favourite things. So, when you and I had a chance to talk, I was really enthused by what you stand for, and how much it really fits with my own thinking. I've always said that the thing that fuels me and moves me forward is I hate watching people struggle. I hate watching people stuck. And you told me a little bit about distraction. Tell us all about that. What caused you to this work? Jeff 01:57It's so interesting. So, we live in such a distracted world, when you think about what we have to do as workers right? You know, whatever job that you have, you know, whether you have an office job, whether you're out doing construction, a teacher, cop doesn't really matter. You know, we have this ever-present social media, this phone, this leash that we have attached to us, that when you watch people, you're watching them scroll, right? They're just scrolling on social media, with no real purpose, right? And, you know, we know a lot of those distractions, you know, are actually making you angry, fearful, making you sad. And, you know, that's going to do nothing for what you're trying to do for your career. Right? So, that's number one. And then the kissing cousins that are is 24/7 cable news, you know, that does the same thing, the anger, the fear, the anxiety, the depression, and you know, it just takes your eye off the ball, right? You're trying to, you know, in my world, project management, you know, launch a new product, right? Or trying to come up with a new product design, no matter what you're doing in your world. There that distraction is, if you let it. I work with people, I tell them right away. So, why don't we do this? Why don't try this at least six weeks diet, have no social media just take it off? Right? Well, you know, I need to– no, you can have it on your computer, but just take it off your phone, right? Let's try that. Let's try not looking at the news for that same amount of time. And what you do is the best thing you can do is replace that time because you realize there's going to be a void. You're so used to reaching for that phone to look at Instagram or looking at LinkedIn or looking at Facebook. This time you're like, Oh, there's nothing there. Once you replace it with a TED Talk. Tim 03:35Yeah. Something positive. Jeff 03:39Something positive that's gonna help your career. You know, for me, I'm sitting there, and I watch. I'm like, wow, you know, 24/7 News. You know, even the one in the left and the right, right, even though I agree with, it's not helping you be a better parent, right? It's not helping you be a better business owner, be a better team leader. It's helping you with exactly nothing. Tim 04:01So, really being intentional about where we direct our attention. And what we consume. My family is full of teachers, my sister has this great saying and she says little pots have big handles. And I don't think it's just kids, I think we have big handles too. And if we let the wrong something in, well, it can stay there. Or it can at least occupy space that could be better used. And one of the things that you'd said in our lead up to this and I know we're gonna get there again. But this distraction isn't just happening that's externally sometimes this can be distraction by the wrong tools or things that were handed within our pursuit of management, or leadership, or sales, or our own business. And there's things that are presented as answers, but they can also be distractions, they can also take us away from the things that are going to provide real value. And that's something that I really like that line of thought. Jeff 04:58For those that are listening here, you know, and obviously, we know, we're well aware that Tim and I are that way to be able to promote this yes, we have to use social media, right? You're going to be seeing, you know, some promotions on Instagram, you know, LinkedIn places. But at the same time, I've worked with people who, again, use social media, and that's how they make money. And they're not on the platforms save maybe a half hour in the morning and a half hour at night. Because they know that distraction that at least, so if people who are actively using social media to bring in money, and so they're putting food on the table, aren't engaging in the platforms all day long, that should tell you something, right? You know, often, they'll hire people, like if they're reaching out to you for their services, it's not really them, right? It's their team, even though it's under their name. So, again, be mindful of that fact that, you know, even in that case, that extreme case of usership on social media, they're not using it any degree that most people are using it today at this time. Tim 06:02So, what I hear you saying is that we have to control and be mindful and intentional around what we're bringing in. And I like the phrase signal to noise ratio, we need to turn up the signal and the quality of those signals, and we need to really be mindful of and try to lessen the noise, right? And so we have all this external noise. When we think about coaching, and the pursuit of it, or the pursuit of personal development, career development, all of these things, what are some of the specific sources of noise that you encounter? And maybe I'll ask you first to talk about what's really common among people that you run into? Jeff 06:45The biggest source of noise is what I used to call it water cooler talk, right? You're kind of going to the water cooler, and you hear all the negative things that somebody feels about the company, somebody feels about their life. And, you know, that's, you know, again, doesn't serve you in terms of, you know, what's entering your mind. Other things, that's just really important. I mean, you have to guard what's going into your mind, you know, what a lot of people don't understand is, you know, that your thoughts, impact your emotions, your emotions, impact your actions, and then your actions then lead to your results. But what people don't realize is, you know, what starts with the thoughts, I mean, you're being fed something. So, that's, we have to figure out like, what am I going to stop this? So yes, we talked about social media. Yes, we talked about 24/7 news. But then there's the negative people, right? So, who are you around, you know, in, you know, in your business or in the workplace, and are they you know, a positive force? Do you feel good when you've actually walked away with 10-minute conversation? Do you feel motivated? Or do you not? So, I mean, I think that's really, you know, something that's very important for people to understand, and I didn't realize it, right, you know, you go into, you know, you start a job, and then you kind of just kind of get around folks, and, you know, you have to stop that like, as soon as you start hearing something that's not positive, you have to go out and say, Alright, you know, let me just find a new tribe. Right? And that's just so that's just so important. Because you know, then it gets, you know, you have this other negativity that's getting in your head and that's hard. The hardest thing I'll say to Tim, is when the negative noise are your family and friends. Tim 08:24Oh, yeah, that can be rough. And as you were talking about whether it's at the home, whether it's at the watercooler you're saying, one of the characteristics of that negative talk that I've noticed a lot is that it can develop a life of its own, it can become this myth. And these stories, and these opinions that people forget where they come from, but they turn into these self-perpetuating doom tornadoes, and stigmas, and stories that people now have to contend with, when we don't even know exactly if they're based, in fact, any more, but they become the popular rhetoric because maybe it allows people to externalize other nerves and stuff that they're feeling. And so it fuels this thing like a really negative fire, and the ability to spot that, not contribute to it, and then pull oneself out of it is really important. But speak to me a little bit about this, because what I've noticed is when one chooses to pull oneself out of that, they can then incur the wrath of all the believers, right? They can then become the target and that often is enough motivation for people to stay at that water cooler and in that tribe. So, what do you suggest when a person feels exposed by trying to out the negative story? Jeff 09:47There's a certain finesse that you can do that. I mean, you certainly don't say wow, you're the most negative person I've ever heard, please never talk to me again. You just politely sort of like, you know, move on and then slowly kind of ween yourself off hard, right? Like, it's like you're not, you know, you'd be like, wow, like, you know what, what just happened there. And you just try to find yourself and this is hard, you know, I come from, you know, larger organizations, you know, fortune 500 pharmaceutical companies. And when we were in the office consistently, at least where I work, there was a lot of opportunity to just find a new tribe, you know, when you're in a really small company, that can be very, very difficult. Right? But, you know, in general, you know, what you're trying to look for is you're trying to get around folks that are where you want to be. Tim 10:30Yeah, what I say your success and your place in life is the sum average of those you choose to surround yourself. Right? Jeff 10:37Right? They usually say, I think it's like the average of the five people you hang out with, you know, and again, you so, it's almost like, you have to do it and like little silos, right? The workplace silo, and then like, you're outside of work silos. Like who are you hanging out with, you know, outside of work? Are you hanging out with strivers, right? You know, which is awesome, you know, are you hanging out with people that are just, like, happy to punch the clock, so to speak, and you know, get in/get out. We actually, you know, the best thing you can do is hanging out again, like I said, you know, if you're a business owner, you hang out with a business owner that's been doing it, you know, in his or her realm for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years and has scaled and has grown, and you're like, Oh, my God, you make what per month? You're not gonna have, you're gonna have much, you're just gonna have much different conversations. I think one of the things that I heard years and years ago, I think I said to John Maxwell, that was, you know, people are literally around the same table with the same people talking about the same thing. And they're wondering why they're in the same position in their life, particularly from a career perspective. Tim 11:43I mean, certain types of energies are like air and water for people. And I used to use the term water hole, because it was like, the water hole that I needed, the water that I needed to drink was different than other animals. I want to find people that are in search of the same water holes that I am, that are in search of tapping into those same energies. And so, for instance, I do a lot of work with startup companies. There's a specific energy around that. I do a lot of work with universities, there's a specific energy around that. And I do a lot of work in sports entertainment, sports event company, that is a specific type of energy. Now, they're all different venues and different spaces. But the energy that I get out of it, that I look for is this is a compatible waterhole for lack of a better word. And that water hole is not comfort. And that water hole is not safety. And that water hole is not leisure, that water hole is, you know, if I think about the mountain biking race company that I'm part of, find what's on the inside-outside is their tagline that speaks to me on levels that I can't even properly articulate all the time. So, look for those sources of people that are out for the same thing, that are fueled on the same sustenance, and are with you in the hunt, and with you in the gather. Jeff 13:08Yeah, it's interesting. And I love how you gave those different examples, right of the startup or the university, you're not going to one specific avatar, right? But you know, the energy of the people that you're trying to get here, that positive energy, that energy of creation, right? You know, who you are around, right? Like, when you start talking to people, I love talking to successful business owners, right? It's a different energy than, say, a corporate executive. Right? And, you know, maybe the bank accounts look similar, right, in terms of their annual income. But it's so very different. When you talk to somebody who has, you know, started, like, you know, we're a startup, you know, then they're a company, and then they scale their company, and that they're continuing to grow, you know, because what they're doing, what they have done, you know, is they've got their own coaches to say, hey, you know, mentors, you know, to see how they, how can they get to the next level, okay, you know, we're a six-figure company, and now we're a seven-figure company, eight-figure, and now we're trying to get to nine, right? And it's, you know, they don't just stop, you know, whereas, you know, as successful executive, you know, they fly to a certain level, right? And executive can mean different things to different people, you know, but, you know, maybe you're making, you know, 150, or 200. And that's where you'd like to live there. And then you're just kind of just there, right? You know, what are you making 300 or 400, as an executive, you're just kind of there, right? And if you're not looking to grow or scalel that you're just like looking to hold on to it, which is different. Tim 14:33It's very different. Jeff 14:34Then trying to grow something. Tim 14:38In the back catalogue, we've had two shows now with my good friend, Richard Young. Now Richard was on the Own The Podium committee for Canada and then the UK and then New Zealand, and he continues to run his practice out of New Zealand. Well, I mean, Richard is one of my favourite people ever. But his PhD and his research is all about what predicts a person from consistently meddling at the Olympics, or within higher sport competition, and a huge part of what Richard teaches is it's not about what we add, it's about what we let go of, you know, and many of the people that have worked with me will talk about the folly of additive logic versus reductive logic or transformation versus additive change. Anyway, when we look at the people we want to surround ourselves with, one of the hallmarks that I see in people that are moving easily in the strata that we want to achieve is that they're moving easily in the strata, they're moving, it's the path of least resistance for them. It's the thing that is that they've let loose of a lot of the preconceptions and the shoulds that a lot of popular business books or courses teach that you have to do. And they've just focused in on the right kind of signal, right? And they focused in on the things that that bring results. And that leaves them all sorts of room to be themselves and to believe what they're going to believe and go in and live their lives. Because they don't overcomplicate things, because they figured out that formula that they are enough. And often the people that are striving, which is a great place to be to strive, right? It's funny how often striving means doing less, it means getting to a point where it just feels easy. Or at least comparatively easy, I guess is what I would say. Jeff 16:32I love how you brought up, you know, I have to look into Richard Young and his work, you know, but as a consistent mentalist, I mean, my son is a competitive swimmer. You know, he's in high school level right now. And we're watching the US Olympic trials right now. And my guess is when this airs, it'll be the right before, right during the Olympics. Like when you see the people that this is their third trip, right? Like, what is driving that? Like, what are they doing, you know, like, quote-unquote, differently? You know, and people want to study that. And people want to hear from that, you know, and you're talking about a high-level elite athlete, or you're talking about, you know, a super successful business owner, business person like Bezos or Musk, right? Branson? Wow, like, you know, but people see the end, right? They don't see the unglamorous start, they don't see the equally unglamorous kind of middle. People see the end, right? And I think they get so end-focused, right? You know, you have folks who say, I want to be a VP by 30. Okay, for who do we want? You know, what are you looking to give up to be able to do that? So, it's, it's really interesting when you study excellence, and I also say to like, when you have those people, you know, those drivers, those super elite athletes, and it's no different than professional sports, and that, you know, here in the United States, NFL, or major league baseball, those elite athletes can pay, you know, 10s, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars to do a sport. The elite Olympic athletes are different. Yes, they get sponsorships and whatnot, the top of the top, most of them aren't getting anything. Tim 18:07There's not a lot of sponsorship for certain sports. Jeff 18:10Which means that after they're done, they gotta go do something. Tim 18:13Yeah, or do it while they're, while they're training and everything else. Jeff 18:17And I often think of like, I haven't seen a lot of elite athletes in a non-commissioned based role in corporate, you know, maybe somebody's hidden, once this is out could say, hey, you know, but I say that, because we don't have a meritocracy, right now, in the corporate world. People are getting promotions and whatnot, a lot of times for other reasons than accomplishing things. And I would imagine that, you know, the elite athlete trying to, you know, get into the corporate American watching this. It's a direct conflict, you know, with what it is that they've done throughout their young life, you know, and how they've achieved, you know, put in the work and achieved and then that's how you get, you know, your accomplishments. And that's not corporate America, it's more of the entrepreneurial world, right? I mean, what you're putting in and what you're getting out, high risk, high reward, but it's very different. You know, and it's just, I said that a while ago on the clubhouse app, you know, put it out to one of those clubhouse rooms, and people were just they sat there and thought they're like, yeah, that there was nobody in that room so to speak, that could come up with somebody that they knew that, you know, we're in a not again, non commissioned role, that I just don't think it exists because it's just diametrically opposed to their lifestyle. Tim 19:30I think one of the the outcomes of this episode should be, I think we need to A. talk to our listeners who do you know, that has been elite in their sport and has managed to translate that into performance in business, or academically or some other pursuit? I do know that there are several people that I've been exposed to that have been ex-CFL football players or ex-NFL or Olympic people in everything from curling, to fencing, to, you know, but they've been achievement-focused to cycling, right? And the key with that, and it brings us to another sort of interesting crossroad here is that they were either lucky enough, or had guidance enough to be able to maintain their growth from a business professionals perspective maybe, but also had opportunities to join institutions and organizations that could see the value of their life experiences, and apply that into certain roles, rather than getting stuck on a tenure track of being a subject matter expert, which is why leadership is often a great place for these certain people to enter if they don't have a technical skill, or proficiency. But it raises an interesting point when we sort of circle back around to the focus that a person needs to maintain. There's so much in the area of team development and personal development, which is myopic on either a single answer, like so say it's a program. But that program assumes that you have a standard type of development through the beginning of your career, that you've gone to school, and you've got a degree and you've got all these things. And then there's this magic bullet process, which is suddenly going to answer everything. Whereas really, you know, one of the first key things that I note when I coach and facilitate to large groups is, people are all incredibly different, there will be no, this seems like a bit of a dumb thing to say. But when you have people that are starting from such different places from an education, experience, lifestyle, socio-economic, gender, could be race, can be all of these different elements that make them who they are. And we try to give them a vanilla product that's going to suddenly be translated, you know, it just doesn't work. I mean, scientifically, that's lunacy, we've got so many different variables that we need. Sure. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a good program, but then we need to go bespoke, we need to be able to customize or give them the tools to customize it to their needs. Jeff 22:15That's absolutely right. And I know, you know, in our previous conversation, I mentioned a book I just finished by Marcus Buckingham Love and Work. And, you know, he goes into a lot of topics, but one of them is the uniqueness of people. People are so unique that people in the same role love different things about it. In his book, he goes into housekeepers at Disney, you know, and interviewed them when he was with Gallup. Right? He was just trying to figure out, you know, like, okay, like, Well, what do you love about your job? Right, you know, and all the different things. So, when you extrapolate that to, you know, any job function, you see that uniqueness, and to your point, you know, this one magic pill, you know, one thing that I've seen in corporate is, you know, the onsite, you know, the two-day on-site training, or the off-site, you know, whichever way– Tim 23:04Pre-packaged, pre-scheduled, yeah. Jeff 23:08And it doesn't work. You know, corporations are spending, like six figures, depending on the size of the corporation, maybe even more to deliver this kind of, like, here it is, this is what leadership is, then they wonder why things haven't changed, people don't retain and it's proven, that, you know, once a couple of weeks have gone by, maybe they remember 17% of it, and then another couple of weeks after that, you know, 2%. You know, and then people just kind of go back to their normal ways of working, because that delivery model training, isn't transformative. Training is not transformative. And you know, when people think of it that well, okay, well, what should we do? You know, I had another conversation at a networking event. So, people like to check the box. So, a company so well, we provided them leadership development training, so good on us, right? If it didn't create better leaders, then what did you really provide? You know, and people don't realize, you know, coaching, right, coaching is really the modality that causes transformation. Unfortunately, you know, people don't see coaching, you know, beyond, you know, executive coach, right, you know, you have an executive that's deemed to be not a great leader. So, you know, give him, you know, an executive coach, so that, you know, he can brush up on his leadership skills and, you know, maybe show up better, you know, with his or her direct reports. You know, that's what people think about coaching is this remedial thing, you know, and, you know, you take a step forward, and you say, oh, wait a minute. You know, it's particularly from a leadership development perspective. If you offer group coaching, right, group coaching to individual contributors before they had the privilege of leading others. That's something different, and virtually nobody's doing that today. Right? People don't realize that that's something that can be offered. That's something that should be offered. A lot of it's on the coaches themselves, they go right to the executive because they know, they go right to the business owner. When I get it from a coach, that's what I'm gonna work with, because that's what pays the bills. So, but you're coaching for like a transformation. You know, one of the things I've said for years is, you know, the leadership development I've seen, you know, that's given a brand scholars to sales professionals call that leadership development to turn a buck. They say, alright, well, we'll give our sales professionals leadership development training, and you know, they're going to start selling 25% more, and this is great for the bottom line and makes all the sense. But in any given company, most companies are, you know, they're not sales professionals. Yeah, how about leadership development, to change a culture to really go in there and change the culture much like, you know, I just said the other day, Major League Baseball, right, has this farm system, right? And, you know, they decided to build their farm system, you know, because they want to compete consistently at the high level, you know, in five to seven years. You know, what I think companies should be doing today in terms of leadership and culture, is build their farm system, who's their farm systems, individual contributors that are out of college, out of graduate school, that aren't leading people that leading one soul you know, yet. It's the people who put through group coaching program for leadership development, you know, in a year format, and see, like, wow, these people are going to now be operating in a different level. And oh, by the way, prepared to lead others, once they're given the privilege, say, you know, what, I think this person can handle a couple of direct reports. But you know, what, I think she can handle her own team, or this one, you know, yes, team tomorrow, department, right, and entire department in two years from now. So, these are the kinds of things that nobody is doing, right? You know, people are promoted for reasons other than their, we think they're going to be a great leader. I mean, to me, people don't even know where leadership is, right? Leadership is a battery of competencies, a battery of dozens of different competencies. But people confuse leadership for, you know, as being a subject matter expert, because you're the kind of you know, in the company, well, then we need to promote you, you know, you're the greatest marketer, well then we need to promote you, that is necessarily mean, you're going to be a great leader of other people. That confusion of leadership and excellence, is, you know, I think what's gotten us down a wrong path, you know, and from a corporate perspective, at the very least. Tim 27:30When you think about it that way, and touching on a few of the points that you've brought up. Leadership is a battery of competencies. Yes, nd many different people with many different styles, different personalities, different backgrounds are going to deliver and emulate and express those competencies in very, very different ways. The competency is the outcome, it's not the way we get there. It's the ability to do something, it's not that you have to paint by number to do it a certain way. You have to find your way to do that. And, well, I think it's, you know, you'd said earlier that you can have groups that come together, and they like their job. And often, I mean, I just finished two more rapid normings, though, over the last couple of weeks. And I teach this, this portion called, The Wheel, where we have to talk about the six things that we have to identify as part of the team that we have to be talking about with employees and whatnot, so that they feel stable, who we are, what do we do? What do we care about today? Who's doing what? How do we behave? And why are we the team that's going to do it? And that's drawn from the work of Pat Lencioni. The issue and what Pat didn't touch on, is that everybody needs to connect to those things individually. Who are we as a team? It's a mix of people and histories and all this, why does that matter to me, and it's gonna be very different than why it matters to you. What do we do? And what do we care about? Why do those two things matter to me? And that's going to be very different than it matters to somebody else? What's our code of behaviour on? What's the role division and how we're aligning the work? And why are leaders believe in us? And why are those things important to me? Why do they make me feel whole when I'm in the workplace, and then take the work as a leader and as a leader of people, we have to coach this and mentor people into it. Do I both know and foster in everybody on my team a connection with the work not just the task, not just the paycheck, but what we're doing. And it doesn't have to be a deep connection in the sense of, you know, I'm a sanitary professional that goes around and picks up garbage. We can laugh at something like that. But for people that do that, and they do it long term, they can connect to other things. I like being outside. I like the movement. I like big, heavy machinery. I like getting a glimpse into people's lives. I like to earn a paycheck. I like to do a job that disgusts everybody else. It could be different for everyone else. Jeff 29:54It doesn't make sense to you. And that's part of what Marcus says too, like it doesn't have to sense. Tim 29:58Yes. What's the connection?Jeff 29:59Absolute sense to the individual. You know, and I'm glad you mentioned Patrick Lencioni, too. And we've talked, you know, in this podcast, you know, I mentioned John Maxwell, we mentioned Patrick Lencioni mentioned Marcus Buckingham, you know, there's a theme here that I want the audience, you know, today's audience to listen to and say, understand that there's not this one thought leader that you just read the one author, right? There's so much truth in it, you start reading out and like I said, nerd out, on all of these authors, because there's going to be truths in there that you can apply directly to your career, right? And really, you don't just read it to get through it– Tim 30:38Read it for application. Where's the tool? Jeff 30:43Right. Exactly. You read it for application. You know, how can I get better? Right? That's the screen. Like, how can I draw conclusions to that? And I think that's really where, you know, I want people to understand that how do you replace the void that comes from not binge-watching television shows, then from not, you know, watching cable news, social media. Yes, get a coach. But start your own self-development, start your own curriculum, you become an expert in leadership by reading a leadership book a month, and I encourage you many different authors. And just work with it. Like, you know, I could never give away my books, because I have all my notes in them, reminding me of a situation, Tim 31:25I was talking to somebody the other day about audible, and that I tend to buy the audible book and listen and buy the book. I buy both because I want the expedience of and the kind of listening experience of the audible book. But then I want to be able to go back, make notes, extract text, do all of those things with and have the tactile thing of having that reference material. I have an eclectic mix of books on my shelf. And I have a little spot that's for the ones that haven't earned their place yet. And every one of those books are books that I go back to again, and again and again because they are proper reference material. But an interesting thing I was going to bring up that, again, went back to what you were saying before, businesses often hire these trainers to come in. And that's really about adhering to a process and a certain, you know, paint-by-number approach, certain methodology. If a person is going to make use of that, and that can be good things coming into that too, or they're going to read things or whatever. As you said something earlier, something crystallized for me. As coaches, we're not there necessarily to help them learn to be leaders. In a way we're there to help them unlearn to be leaders. They've got to unlearn all of the useless stuff. And I like using the word fluency, get them fluent about themselves, how they want to be how they are today. So, that you can see the gaps that they have to go searching to fill. In a sense, they have to go, you know, if you're going to fill your toolbox, well know what tools you're short of, or know why you have each tool in the toolbox and make sure that it's you know, there's a place for everything and everything in its place. But that toolbox will be specific to you and your craft, and how you handle the tools, and how you approach the work. So, help them unlearn to be able to learn. Help them get fluent to be able to seek, you know, and that to me is is so critical when it comes to be the difference between you know, these program coaches who are largely trainers, they're going through a paint-by-number piece. I used to teach meeting skills and so I was very good at a very formalized agenda. And I ever used it, especially in my line of work, I now just have a list of outcomes, say, here's where we're going to get. And I've got a general approach in mind. But anticipate I will be calling an audible because I don't know what I'm dealing with until I'm in dealing with a group, until I'm in dealing with people, then I will start where they are, and I will craft for what they need. Not start with my agenda and my method, because otherwise, I'm not there for them. I'm there to deliver a commodity and that's not how I work. Jeff 34:09Yeah, no that's absolutely right. And I think, you know, it's understanding that difference between training and coaching. Like training as a delivery, coaching is a journey. As a coach, you want to be able to guide people through that journey. And it's a very, very different thing. And again, you know, what's great, what can be great about training, or we can be great about going to a conference is if it starts that journey, if it's a catalyst, right? It's just saying, hey, you know what, you know, I am going to commit to your meeting X amount of books on leadership, you know, this year, or I'm going to commit to going through a coaching program, you know, to find out like, how I can lead better, you know, because it's not only is it individualistic, it's also you know, based on the company itself, like you know, what's going to work you know, in, you know, your role today, you know, may not work, those leadership skills may not work in the same company in a different role. Right? So, that's why it's always this kind of journey to say, alright, you know, what got me here isn't necessarily what's going to get me there. And is that thing, that's what I tell people, you know, that the concept of building your leadership skills to the fidelity that you built, you know, whatever subject you went to school for, right? You know, you could be, you know, the best accountant in America, right? or Canada. Right? But, you know, what have you done to build your leadership skills to be at that level, that same level, right, you know, people think I need to get continuing education, so I can keep my project management certification, and they're, like, not even paying attention to it, you know, they're sitting there for, you know, the three days and they got, they got it. This is not that this is like really getting serious about it. And it's serious about the craft of leadership, but not taking yourself too seriously. Tim 35:57Well, the craft of self-development. Jeff 36:00You're right, it's not an I'm better than you scenario. Not in any way. It is, I've decided that I want to be a better teammate, or I want to be a better leader, you know, I want to be just grow to be, you know, a better version of myself. I mean, I know that that's, you know, can be sort of like that trait overused term. But the fact is, I mean, how many people are actually actively trying that and again, I had an event here in New Jersey, a couple of months ago, and I talked to it and one of the slides I threw up was a stock ticker, right? Your leadership development journey is going to look like a stock price, the up-downs, and hopefully, it's trending upward. But like, it's not about perfection, either. Like, you know, people think about, like, if I'm going to be a leader, like, you know, I have to be perfect, it's not about perfect, it's about trying to get better. And that's where people, that's where coaching gets into you, we never possibly ever get that from a leadership development training. And for those people in leadership positions now, that thought, like, oh they were doing right, you know, by providing this training, and then they're frustrated, because, you know, you spent all that money and it didn't work. Think about getting coaching for your team, getting that done, because that's really very, very important. Tim 37:17To wrap up here, the distinct differences, when you're realizing that coaching is the modality, not necessarily trained. Training is information-based. It's content, not context, coaching puts it in the context of the individual, and you're from New Jersey, but I often think of Beantown when I think about, I know, it's not super close, but anyway, it's closer than I am. Jeff 37:41Close enough. Same general type of person in North East. Tim 37:43But there's that scene in, in Goodwill Hunting, when he said, you know, you're gonna be sitting back, and you're gonna be looking at all your student loans, and you're gonna have a $400,000 education or something, and you're gonna realize that you could have learned all this with a buck 75 and late charges from the library. And, you know, information is not the problem here. And I've actually run into groups that come to me and say, Hey, we want to want you to put together a Leadership University for us. And I'm like, go on LinkedIn. Like you don't need me to generate content, the content is out there. What you need is you need people to learn how to steer their lives, to be able to source the right content, apply it well, and do it all so that both they win and their family wins and their career benefits and that they're in balance. And that we're not out of whack here, anybody can pick up a new idea and try to apply it as a bright, shiny thing, and sometimes destroy themselves doing it. Right? So– Jeff 38:50Absolutely, you know, and that's the thing too, like, people don't want to go to school anymore. Like they went to school already. And you know, something, you know, whether you finish in high school, college, graduate school or beyond, right? And then in corporations were given them more school, that's what training is, this is school again. You know, again, not only does it not work, people really don't want that. But like when you get them a coach, right? And again, you got to do your due diligence on coaches, right? If you're a business owner, or an executive thinking about getting a coach for your team, you know, and that coach has never had a coach before runaway because that tells you that they don't believe, you know, in the process of coaching, because if they did, you know, and they're asking you to spend money, because if they did, you know, they would have had coaches themselves. I know you have had several coaches, I have had coaches and continually like, you know, working with two guys right now, you know, and again, it's again to continue to improve like the, you know, the person that's got coached by me and 2023, you know, is a different coaching experience for those that are working with me right now in 2024. You know, and will be in 2025. The point is continually getting better at the craft of coaching, right, you know, so people need to understand that as well. I don't know in terms of that, again, that training piece, if people remember nothing else, and again, to all the folks that are listening to provide training, God bless you, the training does not work. I've been on the training end, both end up training, delivering training and receiving training, it just doesn't work. And coaching does– Tim 40:23Just, you know, ask anybody who spent money on a training scenario to go out and anonymously poll their group. And you'll find that some people, man, it was great, it's the best thing they've ever went through. And often the leader will have gone through the training, and think that this is just the bee's knees. Well, the reason was, the leader was ready for that piece of information at that time, and it was very useful for them. But that doesn't guarantee that 90% of anybody else in that call is ready or can use that information. The information doesn't steer it, you've got to start where people are. And as you say, it's the journey, and the ability to go through that journey. Jeff 40:58And too, the content is there like and that's one thing we talked about, I just want to kind of give the opinions here the content, there's been content, oh, just since 1990, right? Like how much leadership development content is there. But yet the workplace still sucks. People will hear Simon Sinek, “Leaders Eat Last,” and say this is the greatest thing in the world, and not behave in any way of how he's describing but they listened to his Tim 41:22Got the certification, check. Jeff 41:25Right, they showed it to their team and say now that they quote him at a town hall. Tim 41:29Bought everybody a copy. Jeff 41:30That in reality, they're not acting like him. So, again, the content is always there, you can go out there and learn yourself, you know, you get an education yourself that self-learning, whether it is you know, the TED Talk videos on YouTube, go on YouTube, search, leadership development, get the books, but again, the only way that it's really going to kind of move the needle for you and your team is through coaching. Tim 41:53Yeah, if you've hold the row for that particular seed to take plant. Take route, here we go. So, we're going to wrap up, I want to thank you very much for opening up to us. I love where we're headed. I think we're gonna have to book another one because I think we've got lots more to talk about, I think we could dive deep on some of these issues. For sure. We've got a couple of traditions here, as we close up and people who have heard these before, the first thing I want you to tackle. So, we have a question from Rita, who joined us last episode. And this is gonna get bombed at you. But don't worry, you're gonna have a chance to bomb a question at the next person. Rita asks, what is the advice you would give your newly minted self if you were just entering the workforce? And you wish you had had that advice when you started? Jeff 42:43Absolutely, you know, I think about this a lot. And from my perspective, it is really get around the right people. Now, explain what we explained at the beginning of the podcast is getting around people of who've achieved where you want to go. And if you're starting to hear people in your workplace that are negative, you know, just politely kind of distance yourself from them, you're not better than them, you just don't need to hear negative things. That's exactly what I would tell my younger self is that, again, leadership development is not about being better than your coworker. It's not about being better than your neighbour, it's about being the best version of yourself and adding value to other people. So, that's exactly what I would say, just get around the right people, get away from negative people Tim 43:27Choose that focus. Jeff 43:29Put yourself on that focus. Tim 43:33Yeah, right. Love it. If you were to have a wish, for anybody who is listening that they're going to take away from this podcast, what would you wish for people be? Jeff 43:44Honestly, I wish people, you know, to disengage from all the negativity that is out there in social media in 24/7 news, it is not serving you guys in any way, shape, or form. Those things are there to honestly make money for the advertisers that advertise on there. So, you know, if you can just remove yourself, you know, live like it's 1980. Right, you know, and again, not hiding your head in the sand. I'm not suggesting that, but you just don't need to take in this kind of content. And it will it will change your world. No question about it. Tim 44:17Without going down this path. But we can talk about it a little later. We just had an announcement here in Alberta that the public school system now is going to ban social media apps and personal devices during the school day. Jeff 44:29That's awesome. There's a couple of governors here that are doing the same and we're going to try to see what we can do in New Jersey for that because it's– Tim 44:36We've got the data now yeah, we know what's we'd like to think of ourselves as adults but we are learning beings and we are just as prone to that. Okay. If I was to ask you a question you want answered from the next leadership, visionary, what would it be? Jeff 44:56Sure, absolutely. So, I would say, you know, what, do you want to be known for as your leadership legacy? Tim 45:03I love that question. I think I would actually add on to that and say, what do you want to be known to as your leadership legacy? And how can we help other people find out what they want to be known in their leadership? You know, how can we actually create that for others? But I am very curious to ask that question. In both phases. If you don't mind, I'm going to tack that one on because like, it's a great one. Jeff 45:24No, attack that on, absolutely. Tim 45:27Jeff, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today. And I hope you had a lot of fun. Jeff 45:33Tim, it's been great. And I can't wait to come back because I feel it percolating, like another 30-40 minutes of, you know, a completely different interview. And I'm looking forward to when we can do that. Tim 45:44Oh, no. 100%. Well, let's look more for Jeff in the feed. And to all of you out there listening. Thank you very much for taking the time to invest in yourself. And Jeff, we'll see you again real soon. Jeff 45:53All right. Take care, Tim. Tim 45:53Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

The Temple and the Departure of God's Glory

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 24, 2024

Ezekiel 8:1–11:25I. Stunning Expressions of Idolatry and RebellionII. Breathtaking Responses from God in JudgmentIII. Glimmers of Good News Beyond All Comprehension

god temple idolatry departure glimmers 25i

St. Joseph

Common Prayer Daily

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 19, 2024 17:28

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________LentJesus said, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”Mark 8:34 ConfessionOfficiant: Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God.People: Almighty and most merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from your ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against your holy laws.We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done; and apart from your grace, there is no health in us. O Lord, have mercy upon us. Spare all those who confess their faults. Restore all those who are penitent, according to your promises declared to all people in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, that we may now live a godly, righteous, and sober life, to the glory of your holy Name. Amen.Officiant: Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen. The Lord's PrayerOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen. Invitatory & PsalmsOfficiant: O God, make speed to save us. People: O Lord, make haste to help us. Officiant & People: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. LentThe Lord is full of compassion and mery: Come let us adore him.Venite Psalm 95:1-7Come, let us sing to the Lord; *let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, *and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, *and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. * Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice!The Lord is full of compassion and mery: Come let us adore him. Psalm 89Part IMisericordias Domini1Your love, O Lord, for ever will I sing; *from age to age my mouth will proclaim your faithfulness.2For I am persuaded that your love is established for ever; *you have set your faithfulness firmly in the heavens.3“I have made a covenant with my chosen one; *I have sworn an oath to David my servant:4‘I will establish your line for ever, *and preserve your throne for all generations.' ”5The heavens bear witness to your wonders, O Lord, *and to your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones;6For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? *who is like the Lord among the gods?7God is much to be feared in the council of the holy ones, *great and terrible to all those round about him.8Who is like you, Lord God of hosts? *O mighty Lord, your faithfulness is all around you.9You rule the raging of the sea *and still the surging of its waves.10You have crushed Rahab of the deep with a deadly wound; *you have scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.11Yours are the heavens; the earth also is yours; *you laid the foundations of the world and all that is in it.12You have made the north and the south; *Tabor and Hermon rejoice in your Name.13You have a mighty arm; *strong is your hand and high is your right hand.14Righteousness and justice are the foundations of your throne; *love and truth go before your face.15Happy are the people who know the festal shout! *they walk, O Lord, in the light of your presence.16They rejoice daily in your Name; *they are jubilant in your righteousness.17For you are the glory of their strength, *and by your favor our might is exalted.18Truly, the Lord is our ruler; *the Holy One of Israel is our King.Part IITunc locutus es19You spoke once in a vision and said to your faithful people: *“I have set the crown upon a warriorand have exalted one chosen out of the people.20I have found David my servant; *with my holy oil have I anointed him.21My hand will hold him fast *and my arm will make him strong.22No enemy shall deceive him, *nor any wicked man bring him down.23I will crush his foes before him *and strike down those who hate him.24My faithfulness and love shall be with him, *and he shall be victorious through my Name.25I shall make his dominion extend *from the Great Sea to the River.26He will say to me, ‘You are my Father, *my God, and the rock of my salvation.'27I will make him my firstborn *and higher than the kings of the earth.28I will keep my love for him for ever, *and my covenant will stand firm for him.29I will establish his line for ever *and his throne as the days of heaven.” Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The LessonsRomans 4:13-18English Standard Version13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. A Song of Penitence(Kyrie Pantokrator)O Lord and Ruler of the hosts of heaven, * God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,and of all their righteous offspring:You made the heavens and the earth, * with all their vast array.All things quake with fear at your presence; * they tremble because of your power.But your merciful promise is beyond all measure; * it surpasses all that our minds can fathom.O Lord, you are full of compassion, * long-suffering, and abounding in mercy.You hold back your hand; *you do not punish as we deserve.In your great goodness, Lord,you have promised forgiveness to sinners, * that they may repent of their sin and be saved.And now, O Lord, I bend the knee of my heart, * and make my appeal, sure of your gracious goodness.I have sinned, O Lord, I have sinned, * and I know my wickedness only too well.Therefore I make this prayer to you: * Forgive me, Lord, forgive me.Do not let me perish in my sin, * nor condemn me to the depths of the earth.For you, O Lord, are the God of those who repent, * and in me you will show forth your goodness.Unworthy as I am, you will save me, in accordance with your great mercy, * and I will praise you without ceasing all the days of my life.For all the powers of heaven sing your praises, * and yours is the glory to ages of ages. Amen. Luke 2:41-52English Standard Version41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when his parents saw him, they were astonished. And his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been searching for you in great distress.” 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?” 50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. A Song of Praise(Benedictus es, Domine Song of the Three Young Men, 29-34)Glory to you, Lord God of our fathers; * you are worthy of praise; glory to you.Glory to you for the radiance of your holy Name; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever.Glory to you in the splendor of your temple; * on the throne of your majesty, glory to you.Glory to you, seated between the Cherubim; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever.Glory to you, beholding the depths; * in the high vault of heaven, glory to you.Glory to you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever. The CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersOfficiant: The Lord be with you.People: And also with you.Officiant: Let us pray The SuffragesShow us your mercy, O Lord;And grant us your salvation.Clothe your ministers with righteousness;Let your people sing with joy.Give peace, O Lord, in all the world;For only in you can we live in safety. Lord, keep this nation under your care;And guide us in the way of justice and truth. Let your way be known upon earth; Your saving health among all nations. Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgotten; Nor the hope of the poor be taken away. Create in us clean hearts, O God; And sustain us with your Holy Spirit.Take a moment at this time to reflect and pray for the needs of others. St. JosephO God, who from the family of your servant David raised up Joseph to be the guardian of your incarnate Son and the spouse of his virgin mother: Give us grace to imitate his uprightness of life and his obedience to your commands; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries; through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceLord God, almighty and everlasting Father, you have brought us in safety to this new day: Preserve us with your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin, nor be overcome by adversity; and in all we do, direct us to the fulfilling of your purpose; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.For MissionAlmighty and everlasting God, by whose Spirit the whole body of your faithful people is governed and sanctified: Receive our supplications and prayers which we offer before you for all members of your holy Church, that in their vocation and ministry they may truly and devoutly serve you; through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. ThanksgivingsThe General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen.A Prayer of St. ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. ConclusionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14

Three Strikes and You're Out - A Reflection on Paul's Letter to Philemon

reflection letter philemon three strikes 25i

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 31, 2023

Philemon 1–25I. The bond of friendship [1-7]II. The mirror of the gospel [8-16]III. Until we meet again [17-25]

Christmas Day

Common Prayer Daily

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 25, 2023 18:31

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Christmas DayAnd the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.Luke 2:10-11 ConfessionOfficiant: Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God.People: Almighty and most merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from your ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against your holy laws.We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done; and apart from your grace, there is no health in us. O Lord, have mercy upon us. Spare all those who confess their faults. Restore all those who are penitent, according to your promises declared to all people in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, that we may now live a godly, righteous, and sober life, to the glory of your holy Name. Amen.Officiant: Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen. The Lord's PrayerOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen. Invitatory & PsalmsOfficiant: O God, make speed to save us. People: O Lord, make haste to help us. Officiant & People: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. ChristmasAlleluia! Unto us a Child is born: O come, let us adore him. Alleluia. Venite Psalm 95:1-7Come, let us sing to the Lord; *let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, *and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, *and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. * Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Psalm 89Part I Misericordias Domini1Your love, O Lord, for ever will I sing; *from age to age my mouth will proclaim your faithfulness.2For I am persuaded that your love is established for ever; *you have set your faithfulness firmly in the heavens.3“I have made a covenant with my chosen one; *I have sworn an oath to David my servant:4‘I will establish your line for ever, *and preserve your throne for all generations.' ”5The heavens bear witness to your wonders, O Lord, *and to your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones;6For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? *who is like the Lord among the gods?7God is much to be feared in the council of the holy ones, *great and terrible to all those round about him.8Who is like you, Lord God of hosts? *O mighty Lord, your faithfulness is all around you.9You rule the raging of the sea *and still the surging of its waves.10You have crushed Rahab of the deep with a deadly wound; *you have scattered your enemies with your mighty arm.11Yours are the heavens; the earth also is yours; *you laid the foundations of the world and all that is in it.12You have made the north and the south; *Tabor and Hermon rejoice in your Name.13You have a mighty arm; *strong is your hand and high is your right hand.14Righteousness and justice are the foundations of your throne; *love and truth go before your face.15Happy are the people who know the festal shout! *they walk, O Lord, in the light of your presence.16They rejoice daily in your Name; *they are jubilant in your righteousness.17For you are the glory of their strength, *and by your favor our might is exalted.18Truly, the Lord is our ruler; *the Holy One of Israel is our King. Part II Tunc locutus es19You spoke once in a vision and said to your faithful people: *“I have set the crown upon a warriorand have exalted one chosen out of the people.20I have found David my servant; *with my holy oil have I anointed him.21My hand will hold him fast *and my arm will make him strong.22No enemy shall deceive him, *nor any wicked man bring him down.23I will crush his foes before him *and strike down those who hate him.24My faithfulness and love shall be with him, *and he shall be victorious through my Name.25I shall make his dominion extend *from the Great Sea to the River.26He will say to me, ‘You are my Father, *my God, and the rock of my salvation.'27I will make him my firstborn *and higher than the kings of the earth.28I will keep my love for him for ever, *and my covenant will stand firm for him.29I will establish his line for ever *and his throne as the days of heaven.” Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The LessonsIsaiah 9:2-7 English Standard Version2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light;those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shone.3 You have multiplied the nation; you have increased its joy;they rejoice before you as with joy at the harvest, as they are glad when they divide the spoil.4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, you have broken as on the day of Midian.5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire.6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given;and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be calledWonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end,on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold itwith justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. You are God(Te Deum laudamus)You are God: we praise you;You are the Lord: we acclaim you;You are the eternal Father:All creation worships you.To you all angels, all the powers of heaven, Cherubim and Seraphim, sing in endless praise:Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,heaven and earth are full of your glory.The glorious company of apostles praise you.The noble fellowship of prophets praise you.The white-robed army of martyrs praise you. Throughout the world the holy Church acclaims you;Father, of majesty unbounded,your true and only Son, worthy of all worship, and the Holy Spirit, advocate and guide.You, Christ, are the king of glory, the eternal Son of the Father.When you became man to set us free you did not shun the Virgin's womb. You overcame the sting of death and opened the kingdom of heaven to all believers. You are seated at God's right hand in glory.We believe that you will come and be our judge.Come then, Lord, and help your people, bought with the price of your own blood, and bring us with your saints to glory everlasting. Luke 2:1-20 English Standard Version2 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This was the first registration when Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3 And all went to be registered, each to his own town. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. 6 And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.8 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. 18 And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. A Song of Praise(Benedictus es, Domine Song of the Three Young Men, 29-34)Glory to you, Lord God of our fathers; * you are worthy of praise; glory to you.Glory to you for the radiance of your holy Name; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever.Glory to you in the splendor of your temple; * on the throne of your majesty, glory to you.Glory to you, seated between the Cherubim; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever.Glory to you, beholding the depths; * in the high vault of heaven, glory to you.Glory to you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever. The CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersOfficiant: The Lord be with you.People: And also with you.Officiant: Let us pray The SuffragesShow us your mercy, O Lord;And grant us your salvation.Clothe your ministers with righteousness;Let your people sing with joy.Give peace, O Lord, in all the world;For only in you can we live in safety. Lord, keep this nation under your care;And guide us in the way of justice and truth. Let your way be known upon earth; Your saving health among all nations. Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgotten; Nor the hope of the poor be taken away. Create in us clean hearts, O God; And sustain us with your Holy Spirit.Take a moment at this time to reflect and pray for the needs of others. ChristmasAlmighty God, you have given your only-begotten Son to take our nature upon him, and to be born [this day] of a pure virgin: Grant that we, who have been born again and made your children by adoption and grace, may daily be renewed by your Holy Spirit; through our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom with you and the same Spirit be honor and glory, now and for ever. Amen.A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries; through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceLord God, almighty and everlasting Father, you have brought us in safety to this new day: Preserve us with your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin, nor be overcome by adversity; and in all we do, direct us to the fulfilling of your purpose; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.For MissionAlmighty and everlasting God, by whose Spirit the whole body of your faithful people is governed and sanctified: Receive our supplications and prayers which we offer before you for all members of your holy Church, that in their vocation and ministry they may truly and devoutly serve you; through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. ThanksgivingsThe General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen.A Prayer of St. ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. ConclusionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14

Ep 34: How Microsoft is Supporting Neurodiversity & Mental Health Through Inclusive Design

Matt Christiansen Bible Study

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2023 50:49

A few months ago, I was in Ithaca for a family event and met Doug Kim, who shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager in their inclusive design team. Once he told me that his team develops technology in a way that supports neurodiversity and mental health, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. For anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I am sharing I learned from their Inclusive Design Toolkit, (which you'll hear more about later!) Inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation, which I just said, is the current, widely accepted definition, which was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products but can, and should be used when designing anything that many people will use. It's more than just making a product accessible, it's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will use it. Another thing I learned from the toolkit that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that “An important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute, while inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive design should make a product more accessible, it's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards but truly usable and open to all.” Something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. This aspect of inclusive design really resonated with me as an Executive Function coach and I hope it resonates with you, too! Microsoft's ResourcesMicrosoft Inclusive DesignOriginal ToolkitToolkit for CognitionInclusive AIFurther Reading:Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat HolmesInclusive Design Toolkit and resources from University of Cambridge, UKInclusively - Support for employers and employeesHistory of Inclusive Design - Institute for Human Centered DesignInclusive Design LinkedIn Learning Course with Christina MallonContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Oh my goodness, it has been a month since we last dropped an episode. With Thanksgiving and the ADHD conference and all the other stuff that just goes on at work. We decided to skip one this past month. And before I get to this episode's topic, I wanted to share a little mini report on our experience attending the ADHD conference, which was held in Baltimore from November 29 to December 2, and I'm recording this a few days after returning home and I am still filled with excitement. It was so great. Sean Potts and Justice Abbott from our marketing team and Wendy Craven, who is one of our outreach specialists joined me at the conference. And it was truly an incredible experience for us all. We met some brilliant and interesting people who stopped by our booth in the exhibit hall and shared their stories with us. And we worked really hard to make our booth a fun place to stop by people lined up to spin our colorful prize wheel and learn about ADHD symptoms and some tools that you can use to manage the challenges that come along with those symptoms. And our ADHD Beyond BookSmart squishy brains in our teal blue company color were a major hit. And our you're not lazy bracelets and stickers resonated with many people. We also had a secret notes project where people could anonymously share their thoughts about their ADHD, and a community art wall that everyone could contribute to. We are all so grateful we were able to attend. And next year's conference is in Anaheim in southern Southern Cal in sunny Southern California. And it is absolutely an event worth attending. So start saving those pennies. Okay, so let's get into today's episode. Back in June, I was in Ithaca for a family event. And I met Doug Kim, who is a friend of my husband's cousin, Doug shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager. And part of his job includes collaborating with the inclusive design team at Microsoft, and working on developing a guide for Inclusive Design for neurodiversity. And as soon as I heard those words come out of his mouth, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. And of course, because he's wonderful, he wholeheartedly said yes, and then came through with an even better offer, and brought two of his colleagues who are the leaders of inclusive design at Microsoft, Christina Mallon and Margaret Price. And for anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I'm sharing I learned from their inclusive design Toolkit, which you're going to hear more about later. And inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation that I just said is the current widely accepted definition. And it was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products, but can and should be used when designing anything that will be used by many people. It's more than just making a product accessible. It's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will actually use it. An additional thing that I learned from the toolkit, and that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that an important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute. Well, inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive designs should make a product more accessible. It's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards, but truly usable, and open to all. And something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning, and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process, and it's aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. And this aspect of inclusive design really resonates with me as an executive function coach. As coaches we also collaborate with our clients to carefully and thoughtfully over time. Figure out the best way of using a tool to create a larger system that works to support the EF challenges the client experiences Okay, enough of me talking about this, let's get on to the show. Oh, and by the way, you get to hear Exhausted Hannah today, I tried to record Focus Forward episodes in the mornings when my attention and my brain are at their best. But due to some scheduling limitations, a couple of my guests are on the West Coast. I recorded this conversation after a long day of work. And apparently speaking coherently, in complete sentences was not my strong point at that time that day, so please have patience with me. As you wait for me to get my thoughts out of my head. Oh, boy. Okay,Christina Mallon 05:38here we go.Hannah Choi 05:41All right. Well, hello, Microsoft people. Thank you so much for joining me on Focus Forward. Would you go around the room and introduce yourselves? Doug, do you want to start since you're the one that kind of connected us all?Doug Kim 06:01Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Doug Kim, and I'm a design manager at Microsoft. Part of my charter is to help support inclusive design. And a strong collaborator with Margaret. And Christina, were also on the podcast today. And we've been talking and working quite a bit over the, over the past couple of years on developing our developing our inclusive design toolkit, and especially developing better practices for designing for neurodiversity.Hannah Choi 06:34And Christina,Christina Mallon 06:37so I am Christina Mallon, I lead inclusive design at Microsoft, I joined about two years ago. I have dual paralysis and ADHD. So really excited to bring my lived experience into the conversation today. Hannah Choi 06:53Yeah, thank you. And Margaret. And last but not least, Margaret Price 06:57Hi, my name is Margaret. I joined Microsoft in 2014, as one of the founders of the inclusive design practice. I'm a strategist, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum. And so this is a topic that is near and dear to me.Hannah Choi 07:13So can you just tell me the story about how you, you know, got to where you are today, and, and you know, how this inclusive design became what it is, and just kind of how you got here.Margaret Price 07:28Back in 2014, the number of product groups at Microsoft were asking some pretty big, bold questions like, What is the future of interaction design? And what's missing from various design thinking methods today? And how can we think about embracing the full range of human diversity as we think about product making, from how we frame problems to how we solve them. And so a small team of people got together and created this practice called inclusive design at Microsoft, which is grounded in three principles of recognizing where there's exclusion today. Learning from diversity, and scaling, for figuring out how you can think about disability through the lens of permanent temporary and situational abilities. And recognizing that there's so much opportunity to learn from somebody who may be experiencing a permanent disability or anyone who's experienced a large range of exclusion. You might think about exclusion through the lens of disability, but also through the lens of socioeconomic status, gender identity and a number of other dimensions. And how do you bring people into the process who've been excluded. And what that means in product making is, of course, having diverse teams of people and championing that, but also thinking about how you recruit folks to come into the process as CO designers to actually bring equity into the process because, of course, what we make as a byproduct of how we make and so we started as a very small and scrappy team of people and ended up building education and capability for all of Microsoft and scaling that we wanted free, accessible resources for the world. So we actually ended up creating curricula that's now in over 60 universities around the world. And a number of companies have been inspired by the work that we've done to create their own inclusive design departments. And we've worked hard to, you know, create a number of experts there are incredible brilliant people all around Microsoft, who are experts in the space now who apply the inclusive design method into their own product groups. And so it's been, it's been a journey of trial and error and learning and testing from a number of diverse communities in Microsoft and outside of Microsoft. And it's certainly a subject that is near and dear to my heart and Doug's and Christina's.Hannah Choi 10:17That's great. Yeah, I love I love how that conversations are being had with people who, who truly know, the experience from because it's a lived experience, there's not, you know, there's not really sort of assumptions being made. Can you tell me a little bit about how you work with your co-creators and how you make that whole process? happen? And it sounds like it's pretty fantastic and successful.Christina Mallon 10:52Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to cover that. And Doug, let me know if you want to add on. So we believe and as Margaret just mentioned, it is integral that there is equity within product making. So our goal that Microsoft is to ensure that we are creating with people from marginalized communities, at the beginning of ideation, all the way to releasing for, you know, general release, and how we work with them is through either ERGs within our company, that has individuals from marginalized communities as a part of that erg and an erg as an employee resource group, or we work with teams or individuals with different lived experiences from being a part of a marginalized community outside and we pay them to ensure that they can provide feedback at multiple times within the product development process. And feel free to really join in as I know, we've been working hand in hand on this specifically in Azure.Doug Kim 12:04Yeah, you know, we're always looking for ways that we can collaborate with people who have experience and always always looking for ways to improve that and always ways to like, help, you know, the people on the inside, who are creating these products really, really, like, learn to empathize with what people are experiencing with their products, which is not easy. And it's, it's, it's not an easy process. And like, there were a lot of mistakes, I think, there were made, like, in the early days, people were just sort of building awareness about disability and accessibility, you know, people would try to just like, whatever, try to use a screen reader or something and say, oh, okay, I got it, right? Well, you know, you don't, right, because if you have the luxury of turning off the screen reader after 15 minutes, then you have no idea what it's like to not be able to do that. And so this is a lesson that we try to like, you know, drill into all the folks that we work with, in terms of like bringing them along on this process. You know, there's this, this is kind of like widely adopted phrase principle, you know, nothing for us without us. And so we really try to stick to that principle, like, involve people very deeply in the design process, who represent the audiences we're trying to expand our capabilities to include, and Sen. And we just really feel like you cannot practice inclusive design. Without that step. You know, you can't make assumptions because, you know, I guarantee if you're making assumptions without that input, they're going to be wrong. Yeah.Christina Mallon 13:40Yeah. And then Microsoft, we only consider products that are inclusive are ones that are co designed with communities. Because, you know, we believe that it is key to product success,Hannah Choi 13:54Right. So is, which would you say that, that like, how, how much does the idea of inclusive design come up in across to Microsoft as a whole? Like, is it it, would you say it's a conversation and and a viewpoint that the entire company has or is it is it more specific to certain products?Christina Mallon 14:26 Yeah, I mean, our mission is to create you know, tools, so that every single customer and enterprise customer and person on this earth can use it to reach their dreams and the company is bought into inclusive design. There are, you know, certain parts of the company where I feel like it was a design is used more. I definitely you know, if you have champions like Margaret, and Doug and they are specific In organizations, we see a lot of inclusive design. There are others where there isn't a strong champ of inclusive design, that less inclusive design happens.Hannah Choi 15:12And I suppose that's found, I mean, it's huge company.Christina Mallon 15:14So over 200,000 people, yeah.Doug Kim 15:19You know, it doesn't matter you can, you can be in a company of 200,000, or a company have like three things, you're trying to change behavior, it's always interesting what you have to, like, think about, right and plan for and strategize. So I think our situation is different. Obviously, we're at one of the biggest companies in the world. But like, you could be at a company of six and face like a similar set of challenges, and convincing people to work this way, developing expertise, you know, that's what the toolkit is about, just because we want to be able to like, like, empower the whole ecosystem, and give folks like yourself, like a set of tools that kind of like, normalizes the idea of inclusivity, it doesn't make it like an oddball thing that you only do, or think about, you know, once in a while, when you have the times likeHannah Choi 16:12that one person or something. Christina Mallon 16:14First original toolkit, over 2 million people have downloaded and used, we just launched the inclusive design for cognition, which we like to call Inclusive Design for Brain Stuff. And that launched it and we've seen a massive amount of users using it. But really, the Inclusive Design original toolkit is what led the way.Hannah Choi 16:38Yeah, I really love that. Something that I am, one of the goals of this podcast is to increase conversations about, you know, like, neurodivergent brains and how, and how, like, Let's break the stigma. And so I really love that you guys addressed that. saw that as a as a separate, not a separate, I don't want to say separate but like sight as its as its own area that needed attention. And that, and that needed that recognition and guidance for people who might not know what, you know, what people are experiencing. So I really love that that is that that is out? Are you seeing more and more people?Christina Mallon 17:28Now we're definitely a huge demand, Margaret, and Doug, get some original work around cognition. And as I took in the new role about, you know, two years ago, and change, we said, Okay, this work is so amazing. How do we get this in a more formalized toolkit? Because there is such a demand, I'm constantly getting LinkedIn messages, emails and say, Hey, how are you designing for people who have trouble focusing or making decisions or communicating? And that's why I reached out to both Doug and Margaret, when I joined to say, hey, can we build upon this work, and they really were, let's do it and signed up. And I really appreciate the partnership, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of usage of the toolkit, and also seeing it reflected and used by product makers at Microsoft and externally.Hannah Choi 18:25And I really love how the way that you created, it makes it I felt like, as I read it as a I don't, you know, I don't create products, but I do create, I do help my clients create, you know, systems that work well for them. And I really loved how it, I felt like it really encourages the reader from whatever viewpoint they're coming from, to consider what they need, and, and to consider how to ask for what they need. And here are some possible ideas and it just the way that you presented it is just really accessible. And it's kind of fun. And, you know, like the graphics are really fun. And I know that's just kind of like little stuff, but as a consumer, it made a difference for me when I was engaging with it. So anyone listening who hasn't checked out the Inclusive Design toolkits from Microsoft, I really highly recommend checking them out a lot of really good stuff in thereDoug Kim 19:35Inclusive dot Microsoft dot design, that's the website that they're on. Thank you, we promote and that's where like the original toolkit is there's a bunch of videos and guidance PDFs of what the new stuff on there and you know examples of how you know we've we've built these into products is these concepts.Hannah Choi 19:58So when you were creating them, how do you do come up with and kind of incorporate the five types of, of cognitive demands? Which for me are executive function skills, learning focus, decision making recall and communication. So I was just wondering like, how did you decide on those? Well,Doug Kim 20:23were you talking to Margaret? Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. No, you start.Margaret Price 20:29So it started with a pretty comprehensive, lit review. So looking at a lot of existing information from different fields of study, from psychology to cognitive science, to think about help us think about how do we frame this space? This is a really complex space. So how should we think about it? So we started with a lit review, then conducted hundreds of interviews with folks all around the world over a span of maybe two and a half years and 2015 2016. A lot of folks in academia to really deeply understand how can we think about perception, I can think about sensing and thinking, what are all of the different ways we could frame this? What are all the possibilities, and then we apply the inclusive design method to it, we brought in a lot of CO creators, we mapped a number of ways we could think about it, we started mapping the various dimensions. And actually, there's many, many, many more than our initial few. We prioritize these few based on the business opportunity for Microsoft, the opportunity for the world to have stronger impact on the need that we saw from people. And so all of this is grounded in evidence based research. And was prioritized based on where we saw the largest need in our communities.Doug Kim 21:59Yeah, and so like, I work on Azure, which is our, you know, enterprise oriented cloud services offering. And we did a lot of studies for how Azure works, or does not work for neurodivergent users. And so a lot of the things that we pulled out of those studies kind of found its way into the guidance that there's there in the toolkit, like decision making in Azure is, is kind of a huge deal like and you have to retain a lot of information to be able to effectively make effective decisions you have like dozens or hundreds of options to choose from to get a particular result that you're looking for. And so we wanted to kind of like abstract out some of these to the like, the cognitive types of functions that are at play here, and how we do or do not support them. So I think a lot of the some of the impetus to choose these came from, you know, the research that Margaret was referencing, but also kind of the experience of our users who are saying, like, this is where if I make the wrong move, I could be in big trouble. You know, you could write $1,000, as opposed to nothing. Yeah. So you hear that? And you go, Oh, okay, I get it. That's a tough call. Yeah.Hannah Choi 23:27Yeah. And if you can't confidently make those decisions, then you're going to be more stressed, which is going to impact your ability to use your executive function skills. Well, which is going to set you up for making more mistakes. So yeah, and that just shows you how important it is to consider these things for people who do not have a, you know, you know, that like don't have ADHD or don't, you know, have mental health struggles or whatever, you know, is impacting someone's someone at work, it's so important to consider that. And I love how you think about that scalability. I have how, you know, like, this thing, yes, it addresses a need here that everybody can actually use it and benefit from it.Doug Kim 24:19So I'm curious like for you, okay, so you're an executive functioning coach, very fascinating to learn how this kind of affects your work. Like one of the issues that came up for us was just consequences. Right? Am I aware when I'm going through a given experience, what the consequences of my decisions are? And if not, how do I move forward? So is that something that comes up for you like what, what are your clients telling you about consequences and the stuff that they need to be able to, like understand and move forward make decisions? You know, when the consequences are ambiguous? Hannah Choi 24:55Yeah, it's huge. And so much so much that comes out is confidence, the confidence to make any decision that they're making? And many of the people that I've worked with, have have spent their life feeling like they've been doing it wrong all along. And, and so to come to a space where question like, you know, like, I'm asking them questions like, what does work for you? What doesn't work for you? What have been the consequences of your actions in the past? And, you know, and and what do you kind of envision for yourself in the future? It's? Yeah, not really sure where I'm going with this. You're really, really, really, so much of what I do just real, I can really relate to the work that you guys have done in addressing. Yeah, the potential consequences that other people have to have in their life and the business decisions that they're making or whatever. Doug Kim 25:58Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to sort of like, basically understand, like, what the, one of the one of the key concepts in the toolkit is trying to try to understand what the cognitive load is, like, how much demand are you putting on the on the user? And why and where does it come into your experience? Right? And so these are, the aspects of the dimension is how much you're asking them to remember how much you are you expecting them to project in terms of the the consequences of their decisions, I want you you're expecting them to be able to act on their own versus in collaboration with their teammates, or co workers. And I think these are normally things that we don't really discuss in depth, we're just sort of like build products, assuming that a person is acting alone, acting independently, and has all the tools that they need to be able to say, make an informed decision. And so, I mean, that's not totally true. I'm being a little bit. I'm exaggerating a little bit, just to make the point. But I think that one of the points of the toolkit is to say, don't make assumptions here, options about what your customer does or doesn't know or what they're expecting, as they're moving through an experience. Build it in a way so you understand what you're asking of your customers, you and understand the level of demand that you're placing on them to do anything, because every experience does that. Right. There's something that it's going to ask of you, right to say, like, if you jump into a car, like there's a presumption that you understand how to operate it, because you've passed the test, at some point, we're seeing all that stuff, the minute you turn on the ignition, right, there's an assumption that you know that when you press the brake, that the car is going to stop. So every, every experience does that to a certain extent. But not all product traders measure that, and weigh that and say, what actually, where are we assuming before somebody even, you know, starts the car? Margaret Price 28:10Well, I love what you're saying. And to build on it, I think it's a really great set of points that leads to the recognition. You know, there's a lot I mentioned, at the beginning of the call, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum, and there's a lot of self-blame that can happen. What's wrong with me? Why can I use those sorts of thoughts? And I think that's where, you know, the worlds colliding and unlikely between what we do and a lot of what you do, which is, you know, as Doug mentioned, asking, what are the cognitive demands? And where are the mismatches between what's needed from the person and what the product is providing? And recognizing that it's not your fault. It's this product's fault. Yeah, this is not built in a way that's going to serve you. Well. And this is not about you. This is about the product not being built. Good enough.Hannah Choi 29:03Yes. Yes. And that yeah, that's, that's many conversations that I have with my clients is being like, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how your brain works. And this and unfortunately, it is not the system, the world that we are in is not, you know, necessarily designed for that.Doug Kim 29:25Well, I think that's especially true with like, well, I don't know, I don't want to get into kind of a waiting thing. But like, you see, that was neurodivergent. Conditions like so commonly, like I think societally, like in this is true, I think, pretty much across the globe, we're like conditioned to say, put the onus on the person with that condition to adapt. Yep. It's an experience that wasn't built for them. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the key premises of the toolkit and this extension of the toolkit. deals with cognition, which is that no, like, that's, it's not you, it's us. It's not, it's not you, like, if it doesn't work for you, then that's a problem with a product, right? It's a problem with the environment or the world that were created, never expecting you to participate in. Like, if it doesn't work for you, then we need to adapt it, we need to come up with systems that normalize you to an extent that allows you to function as effectively or better than anybody else who's using a product. And, like, puts the onus on us as periodic creators, to, to adapt to you as opposed to the other way around. And the fact that our systems up until, you know, very recently, and like without this sort of understanding of how things work could work potentially a lot better for our interviewers. And folks. It's, it's, you know, it just hasn't been built that way. And, you know, I think our mission, like the three of us together, and now you and everybody else who's like involved in this inclusive design process, is is to upend that expectation, and say, it's the onus on people who are creating products. You know, I mean, you create a product, this podcast is a product, right. And it could be applied to anything that anybody, you know, makes,Christina Mallon 31:25I think, people are starting to see this, you see the World Health Organization, how they define disability as a mismatch between a person and a design. And I think that is really key because, again, as a disabled person, I'm told, okay, you need to figure out how to do this or fix this solution. Yeah, and it's really taxing. And this is something that's common in marginalized communities.Hannah Choi 31:54Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was just doing some research on, on advocating for yourself at work. And, and many of the articles that I read, said, unfortunately, it is on you, it will, in most situations, it will be on you to educate your employer, on what how to, you know, meet your needs. And so, it's, and that's, that's with any marginalized community, marginalized community, right. It's it, unfortunately, at this point, it is, it is on that group to educate everyone else. This inclusive design, the fact that Microsoft is embracing this so much shows us that that, like, that's a good role model. Do you think that within I mean, I guess you guys can only speak for the departments with it to work. But would you say that within it, or in your experience? Like, Christina, if you need something? Do you feel like you're, it is easy for you to advocate for yourself? Do you feel like that inclusive design concept spreads to the advocacy part? And for Costco? Yes,Christina Mallon 33:14I'm definitely empowered to implement inclusive design, and that the entire company has a pretty good understanding the importance of it. But the current state of the economy, with our focus on AI, there's definitely more begging that needs to get done for resources around it. And I think, you know, that's why people in positions of power really need to advocate for this. And that's why when I started, Doug, and Margaret, could empathize with me. And were able to provide, you know, their resources to help create the inclusive design for cognition toolkit.Hannah Choi 33:58And, and Doug and Margaret would like, where did where did your strength in, in, in your knowledge come from? Was that just from your experiencing your experience of creating this inclusive design? Or is that something that you have naturally already felt before you got into that?Doug Kim 34:19Everything I know comes from Margaret.Hannah Choi 34:24Margaret, you're amazing.Margaret Price 34:28You're all amazing. Yeah,Christina Mallon 34:30we're all amazingMargaret Price 34:32 lots of listening and learning. And I as a generalist strategist, I like to learn there's so many brilliant leaders in this space outside of Microsoft, who pioneered inclusive design long before Microsoft got in the business. And so a lot of listening and learning to brilliant folks. And we can, you know, give you links For show notes too. Yeah,Hannah Choi 34:58Thank you, I was just gonna say thatMargaret Price 35:01A lot of listening, a lot of learning a lot of synthesizing just a ton of information. And wanting to communicate it in ways, as you mentioned earlier that are simple for anybody to understand. And connecting dots that might seem not connectable, I have a background in research as well. And so I love listening and learning and connecting dots that might seem like they can't connect. And I think, you know, to your question earlier about advocating for ourselves in the workplace, I think, for me, a lot of it came from not as much inclusive design as the work on myself. And I think you do a lot of this with folks that you coach, probably, but really becoming, you know, keenly self aware about my needs, and how to communicate them and boundaries and how to communicate them. And recognizing that communicating well. And communicating in a way that's going to serve me is the absolute best thing that I can do, rather than ignoring or suppressing what I need.Hannah Choi 36:07Yeah, and so much of advice, like going back to the idea of how you have to, you know, it is on you as a person to advocate for yourself, and you might end up having to educate your employer. But a big part of that self advocacy is, you know, like, knowing yourself, and knowing what your boundaries are and right, like you said, like learning how to, how to ask for that. And yeah, that is, it's a lot of what I do. Yeah. And it's so funny, because I just, just over the past year, went through the whole ADHD diagnosis and answered all these life questions that I've had about myself for a very long time. And, and, you know, working at beyond booksmart, it was, it was like, not a thing, and not a big deal. It was, you know, it wasn't like I had to decide whether I was going to disclose and, and, you know, there were already so many systems built into, you know, built into how we do things at beyond booksmart. Because, because we are in the business of supporting people with executive function challenges. So I feel very lucky that I work at a company where I am just automatically supported, and that there are lots of people within the company who, you know, also, like, have shared needs or similar needs, or even different needs. And so a lot of our training materials are presented in many different formats. And, you know, there's, there's many different ways to interact and many different choices that you can make whatever works the best for you. And I know, that's not how it is that many places. And so I, I really hope that these kinds of conversations continue to happen that companies like Microsoft, and other I mean, you guys almost have like a, an I don't know, if you feel this way, but as a very large company, like you have a really big opportunity to, you know, to be a voice for this. I, you know, I like I kind of feel that way, there's a podcast host of like, well, I don't really have a lot of power, but I have a little bit of power, and I'm going to try to use it. So do you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like that responsibility? Christina Mallon 38:18Yeah, I mean, I took my job six months pregnant with my first child, which is kind of crazy. But I knew the power that Microsoft has to empower people like be to be able to achieve their dreams. And I already knew that the foundation has been set by people like Doug and Margaret. So it would come into a very inclusive company.Doug Kim 38:48Well, I would say that, you know, something that, like kind of struck me as you were talking when I was was like the, the idea that you have power, and I think everybody has power. And a lot of us have this tendency to like even regardless of what position we're in, to kind of under estimate what that what that power is. And so I think if you're in this, you care about this space, which if you made it this far into this episode, you obviously do. You can exercise your power on one on one, right, you can help shape conversation and you can help normalize things. If you're more of like from representing the ally ship side of things, you can learn more, you can reduce the burden on your colleagues or whoever it is to have to advocate for themselves. You can absorb information like our toolkit, but any of the other like, you know, amazing resources that are that there are out there to help, you know, again, create this expectation. ation of inclusion as a as a regular and standard practice. So there we're constantly stretching ourselves to be more inclusive and to include more audiences that haven't been included to this point. So it could be a one person company, it could be two people working together to see, you know, examine how they operate, could be a soccer club could be whatever a classroom. I don't think that work ever ends. But it's like, I think we found that it's joyful work, you know, it's inspiring work. Learn more about human human capability, and what you can do to enable and empower that. So, you know, it's also fun.Hannah Choi 40:48What creative work, problem solving, and something that you said in the beginning, just connected me back to what you were just saying. And you said, I think Margaret, it might have been you, you said, you asked people a lot of questions, the CO creators that you worked with. And then Doug, you said, you made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, I can't remember exactly who said what, but but I think that's part of that power is not being afraid to ask the questions, and not being afraid to make the mistakes. And, and that is so scary for people, especially when you're asking questions about something that you don't really know a lot about. Doug Kim 41:29So yeah, you know, sort of, you're bringing into mind this, or like, you know, that era that Margaret was referring to earlier, back 2014, 2015. You know, I just started, like, getting used to interviewing people with disabilities. And I was interviewing this woman who has a low vision person who used like, an extreme amount of magnification, and a third party tool to be able to magnify her, um, screens to something like 400 person, and I was watching her work and just kind of like, making little comments. And at one point, the, the screen magnification tool she was using just crashed and quit. And, you know, I was looking at her and I said, and I just kind of chalk. Well, I said, oh, shoot, like, it's a crash. Let's, let's reboot that out. And she just looks at me, she goes, Why are you laughing? And I said, Oh, well, it's just the like, a little glitchy thing. And she just said, you know, it's not a glitch. When this happens. It is so hard for me to get this back. And my livelihood, because she was an independent business person, right, who worked on her own. She said, You know, my livelihood could be drastically affected. Like every time this happens, and you know, Margaret's done a lot of research, too with customers who have said a lot of the same things around things like, you know, improperly coated, or created notifications and interruptions. There's a lot of science around that, too. But at the time, I was like, oh, boy, I just got a big lesson. Yeah. And understanding, you know, how to empathize with what people are experiencing. Yeah, so I view that as kind of, like, you know, a mistake on my part, in terms of how I reacted to what she was experiencing at the time. But something that has, like, continued to, like, help me understand how to move forward, and how to understand how to work with folks with disabilities, or with anybody really, anybody? Yeah, developing more like tools for empathy and understanding and how to keep you know, going deeper into this work. So those are, those are really helpful. Actually, I still pretty much think that, you know, like, if she remembers that at all, it's quite some time. Now, she probably didn't think much of me. But yeah, she's been enormously helpful. Just that one episode, to you know, whatever progress I've made my journey along this path.Hannah Choi 44:05Yeah, and going back to that power, I mean, that shows like the power of, of experiences for people, we, you know, we never know the impact that we might have on somebody. And so you guys probably don't even see the the impact that your work has, has had on, on everybody.Christina Mallon 44:25We get some nice notes here and there. But I think having people with disabilities within the company is super important. Because you're able to do these really quick empathy sessions and you can actually see oh man, this really does affect when the small design changes made. When we look at power and power dynamics, most people that are making decisions sit in an area where they have lots of power, they are white, they are male, they're educated. They speak English, upper middle class live in, you know, the states or the UK. And it is so important to have diversity within the company so they can influence these power makers or become one of the power people. And Microsoft does a good job of that, and really looking at hiring and trying to increase the exposure to people with disabilities. But you know, here's the thing, everyone's gonna make a mistake, I make mistakes about disability, and I'm disabled myself. So it's always a learning experience. And if people treat it as a learning experience, and don't get scared to even interact with someone that disability, life will be better. Yes,Hannah Choi 45:42I worked for a few years in the, in the students in the, like Disability Resource Center at a community college. And, and I just loved it, that diversity of employees within that, within that office, and then the students that came in, it was, it was I made a ton of mistakes, I made a ton of mistakes. And I learned so much. And it was, it was just such an amazing experience. So grateful for it. Yeah, I we're actually, I'm right in the middle of preparing for a webinar, we do these community education webinars, and we have one coming up a week from today. And it's about, it's about how to manage like perceived failure. And, and we're talking a lot about how, like, exactly that what you said, Doug, like that, that felt like a mistake, but you are still learning from it years later. And how how when you can change your viewpoint from seeing it as a mistake, and something to trip you up and stop you and switch it to see us something as that we can learn from and grow from. And you can separate a little bit separate, like your ego from it and and then become more, you know, just more aware and more understanding.Doug Kim 47:10Well, you know, yeah, and I think that, like, if you're coming from a position of ally ship, again, that you should expect to encounter a road where you have setbacks and you take on risks, you know, in, in your journey to like, you know, help serve that community or even understand more about that community, you you're part of the goal, I think of ally ship is to alleviate risk from other people and put it on yourself. And some of that risk is, you know, involved in in making mistakes. I mean, if I look at whatever the embarrassment that I felt in that moment that I was talking about, it's not much compared to what the person that I was trying to understand from past experience every day, every time that you know, magnifier crashes. And so like, if a second if I can take one second to have an embarrassing moment, and help, you know, ultimately create a better system for her, then that's really not much of a risk. But it is, it is, like a lot of people like think about, like a potential misstep like that as a huge risk. In some ways it is. It's embarrassing. It's not fun. But it's what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some like emotional discomfort, you know, or the possibility of emotional discomfort, you know, off somebody else's plate and putting it onto yours. That's a very that's, that's an expected and also a that's an outcome. You know, you should you should expect to have.Hannah Choi 48:54My favorite quote, ever is by Susan David, who's a psychologist, and she said, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I just love that so much.Margaret Price 49:08Oh, that's beautiful. I love Susan David.Hannah Choi 49:10I know I love her. She's so great.Margaret Price 51:21Delightful. Well, thank you so much for having us on. Because yeah, speaking of executive executive functioning skills, flexibility is part of that and my, and my rigid schedule, I am gonna have to hop. But really, it was such a delight. Meeting you, Hannah, and speaking with you, and of course, talking with two people that I just adore, Christina and Doug. So thank you for having us on and for discussing this important topic.Hannah Choi 51:52And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to listen and learn about inclusive design and for having some patience with me. You can find links to lots of inclusive design resources in the show notes, and please share this episode with your family or your friends who might help it find it useful. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and please subscribe to focus forward on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Our very patient editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our thoughtful and creative content marketer is justice Abbott extra special thanks to Doug who brought Christina and Margaret onto the show with me and a million thank yous to the people at beyond booksmart who helped make our attendance at the ADHD conference possible. Thanks for listening

Buddhism & Masturbation

The Imperfect Buddhist

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 6, 2023 20:12

00:00Hey, so before we start this episode, I do want to give you a heads up that we will be talking about some adult subjects. So if you have any people in your life that you're listening to this podcast with, or you yourself are somebody that feels like you don't want to hear about some very personal subjects, then you might want to listen to one of the other episodes or put on a different podcast. You've been warned.00:27Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I undertake to cultivate responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families, and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments00:57and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct. That's out of Thich Nhat Hanh's 5 mindfulness trainings.01:25I want to welcome you to the Imperfect Buddhist, where we discuss mindfulness and incorporating Zen principles into modern life. My name is Matthew Hawk Mahoney, and today's episode is titled Buddhism and Masturbation.01:44Bye!01:59First, I want to say thank you so much for joining me on this path together as we learn about and share experiences of incorporating mindfulness, Buddhist or Zen teachings into our modern lives. Thanks for choosing this podcast out of all the other Buddhist podcasts and mindfulness podcasts that are out there. It really means a lot.02:23Understanding Buddhism, Zen, and Sexuality. Anybody familiar with Zen or Buddhism will be familiar with the concept of mindfulness, which is the teaching that one can train themselves to place their awareness in the present moment and through this awareness one can come into contact with truth or the way things are with the Dharma.02:50If you were to look at old school Buddhism, old school Buddhist teachings, the Dhammapada, a lot of these teachings seem to be aimed at monks, people living in a community where practice was at the forefront of their life day in, day out, when they would eat, there was a ceremony, a practice that they would do, when they would sweep the floor, when they would meditate, when they would sleep, all these things were regimented and they were not allowed to.03:18have any type of sexual relations with other people in the organization or outside the organization, strictly forbidden. And in some Buddhist teachings, it was taught that sexuality or sex lust were a defilement of the mind, that they led to endless suffering and rebirth and negative karma.03:47self-pleasure. Sure, some people within monasteries or even lay practitioners view sexuality or sex in the same way that it's a defilement and a distraction from the path of liberation. But then in modern times you also have the Thich Nhat Hanh flavor, which I read that at the beginning there that it's not saying that there's anything inherently wrong with sexuality. It's as natural as eating. However, just like with eating,04:15they recommend a mindful approach, being present, being aware in sexual activity, being present and aware with whom you have sexual relations with, what are the impacts, what is the karma related to these sexual relations.04:32Zen Buddhism has an emphasis on direct experience and awakening through the present moment. Through our meditative practices, whether that's zazen, walking meditation, which is known as kinnhin, or other different various awareness training techniques like oriochi, which is a ceremony, a formal way of eating that's there to cultivate awareness. The core aim is this direct experience.05:01of reality in Zen. And so it's never really been a contradiction in my mind when it comes to base sexuality, meaning not using porn to stimulate the mind or live in some type of fantasy and not projecting a bunch of lust on men or women or people around you if you are present in that sexual act. It's a consenting person, of course.05:27and you can be present and mindful and not lose yourself in some type of daydreaming or projection, then it could become a mindfulness practice. There was a time where I thought, okay, my sexuality or masturbation, self-pleasure, sex, are not in alignment with the teachings of Zen Buddhism or these awareness trainings. But then I also adopted this other viewpoint where I said, okay, maybe I can treat it as a mindfulness training.06:00So that said, where am I at with it now? There was a time for the last couple years that I really didn't put much thought into my use of porn, when or how often I masturbated or had sex or lusted. There was not much emphasis or awareness around those things until I started thinking within the last couple weeks about that. About...06:26Where does my practice begin and where does it end when it comes to my own sexuality? And what is healthy? What is in alignment with the path to awakening as I see it? And it's been a challenge. It's been this last week. I've really put an emphasis on it as I've been preparing to talk about this on this episode. I've asked myself, can I not use porn? Can I not fictionalize or...06:55fantasize in my mind when I masturbate. Can I masturbate less? This is maybe TMI, but this is something that needs to be talked about. I think that a lot of people are ashamed to talk about it. It's not normalized in a lot of spiritual communities. And I think that there is, in our current culture and society, I think that there's like this sex positive culture, which can have a lot of benefits.07:21There's a lot of room for interpretation when we talk about like, all sex is good. Embrace your sexuality. That can leave a lot of room for like, what is healthy? What is good for my mind? What will lead me on a path to awareness towards awakening if that's the path that I'm endeavoring to walk down? This last week, I've kind of put some question marks around those questions.07:47When I got that sexual urge, when I have that feeling, it's kind of like being hungry. You can sense it, you can feel it, and there's a desire and a need there. I've experimented with this idea of being present while I did my masturbatory practices and tried to bring my awareness to the sensations that were present. To be quite frank with you, it was pretty unenjoyable. There wasn't a whole lot08:17pleasant about it other than the physical sensations that I created without any type of imagination or fantasy in my mind. Not holding those images in mind or fantasies and just really being present with the act of jerking off. There wasn't a whole lot that was really exciting about it. This experiment left me with a lot of insight. Wow, how much of...08:44this pleasure that I'm getting, how much of it is what they call in Buddhism attachment, fantasy, and illusion? How much of this pleasure I'm deriving is it from some type of imaginary fulfillment of a fantasy I have in my mind? Since doing that, I've had less desire to masturbate.09:08Through our normal meditative practices, like sitting or walking meditation, we cultivate our ability to hold things without judgment. And in this case, I was holding the thing. Wow. We developed that compassion to hold things without judgment. And while I was holding my thing, I was also holding the desires of my mind with compassion and holding it with an element of letting go. Our09:37Culture promotes the idea of these strong sexual attachments and normalizing, in a sense, really strong lust. It's used in ads to sell things. We're using sexuality and sexual desire to sell things, as the saying goes, sex sells.09:58It's good that we are developing a sex positive culture. We're not shaming people for their sexuality, whether that's gay, trans, straight, non-binary, or not interested in sex at all.10:14Catholic Church or other organized religions where sex is prohibited, where sexuality is closeted, and we've seen the horrific things that can happen when someone is in complete denial of their own sexuality, of their own sexual needs and desires. It does seem like in environments where sexuality is swept under the rug, not talked about, act like it doesn't exist, or where it's said that it's just evil, some really terrible sad things happen.11:00Some of the negative effects of mindless masturbation. Don't you like that? That just rolls off the tongue. Mindless masturbation. I've noticed when I use porn, there's a sense of shame and it's interesting, like I won't be very aware while I'm using it and fantasizing and doing the act, but afterwards I noticed there's like kind of this feeling of being grossed out and be like, ugh, what did I just do?11:30shame can come from a lot of places. Porn use and mindless masturbation can have some negative effects. There is the movement of nofap which is about no masturbation essentially and that it has all these benefits of boosting productivity, creativity, self-confidence. Some books mention the negative effects of masturbation on creativity. Think and Grow Rich where he talks about a controlled sexual11:59a huge asset to success that some of the greatest and richest people, greatest creators, channeled and harnessed their sexuality for things other than sexual acts and channeled those into creative works and business. So some people would say that an effect of porn would be a lack of ambition, a lack of genius creativity. And I don't know if that's fact, but that's what some people say.12:29using porn or sexual fantasizing in one's mind is that we can strengthen this pathway of sexualizing individuals. Looking at someone like a piece of meat, that it does strengthen that pathway. Say I've been in a period of really engaging with porn and sexual fantasy and masturbation for a period of time and I get into a conversation with a woman that I find attractive. There is a12:57tendency to zoom in on that sexual aspect and maybe the chasing of that. We're strengthening that way of looking at the world, of looking at certain people. And in doing so, we step away from the direct experience that Zen Buddhism champions. Because instead of being present with a person listening, maybe in that moment we are aware of some type of sexual desire,13:27What that person's saying. The content of what that person's saying. The ideas, the feelings, our own feelings. The sound of the car is going by outside the coffee house as we talk to this person.13:47So I want to come back to this idea of treating masturbation or sexuality as a mindfulness practice. Instead of pushing it away, acting like it doesn't exist, or fully indulging and completely losing our awareness, dissolving our awareness in fantasy, porn, these other ways that we delude ourselves, can we bring an element of mindfulness?14:11The other day when I was employing this idea of being present, I tried to come back to my Hara, which I know a lot of this stuff sounds very hippie, but essentially it's bringing your awareness to a space right below your navel. There is a point of energy there. My mind started to want to fantasize and I was doing this self-pleasure exercise. I came back to my Hara. It really pulled back the energy of this fantasizing and brought me back to the moment.14:42When it comes to shared sexual experiences, this can go a long way because when I am in my head fantasizing, I'm projecting this fantasy and my own sexuality onto this being in front of me. And when I'm doing that, I'm not directly experiencing that being in front of me. I am projecting my own fantasies and illusions. But I've made an effort to be mindful.15:10when I'm kissing my wife to be present in that moment. All these other sensations wake up in me and it's much more pleasurable when it's a shared experience. The juxtaposition is that self-pleasure when it's just you by yourself and you bring a lot of mindfulness. I didn't find it as exciting, but when I had that shared experience with my wife where I'm present, it was less exciting in the sense that my mind wasn't so excited and I wasn't fulfilling some type of fantasy in my mind.15:40but it was much more wholesome and enjoyable and fulfilling to be present with her in the act of sex. People say that everything in our society is driven by sex, by this one act. Like we earn a lot of money so that we can attract a mate, we stockpile resources so that when we find a mate and have sex, we can care for children.16:04we dress in a certain way or present ourselves in a certain way to make ourselves more attractive to a potential sexual partner. And so if all this is leading up to this, we might as well enjoy it. We might as well be present while it's happening to see what all the fuss is about. So we can become mindful of the touch of our partner as they run their fingers down our arm or our back or as we touch them, as we feel their skin on our fingers, as we kiss them. We can become...16:32aware of all these physical sensations on our skin and our nerve endings and focusing in on all the sensations that arise in that present moment, we might start to discover that underneath this buzz of sexual stimulation in our mind, I'm talking about this fantasy in our mind, that maybe there is a sense of connection, there's a sense of oneness and a closer connection of well-being happening.17:06I'm not a master though when it comes to mindfulness or having some type of deep spirituality in my sex life or self-pleasure. And I don't know what the answer is here. Maybe the old teachers and abbots at the temples in Japan are right. Maybe there is not a whole lot of room for sexuality or sexual desire on this spiritual path. I can't see that being the truth as sex is a huge part of who we are.17:35sexuality and sex are so a part of what makes us human. There is a path for incorporating our sexuality into our spiritual lives and that there is a middle path as they talk about in Buddhism, that we don't go too far in either direction and end up falling in the ditch. One ditch being self-denial and acting like18:02We don't have a sexuality. And then the other ditch being unhinged sense, pleasure, desire. I want to encourage you also to reflect on your own porn usage, your own sexuality, your own sex life, and see where does your mindfulness, your present moment awareness go during those acts. Try some of these practices and see if you can bring some awareness into your sex life.18:37Thank you so much for tuning in and being present with me through this sticky situation. Oh God, the dad jokes. It's not an easy subject to talk about, but I'm really glad we got to talk through it a little bit. If we wanna spread this community further and get the word out there, hitting the like button would really help me reach more people. And if you could share your thoughts and experiences along the path by hitting19:06the feedback button leaving a hopefully you'll leave a five star review after this you may leave a one star review because it freaked you out but i would love for you to share your own personal journey and experiences along the path leave some feedback for the podcast in your favorite app and consider subscribing to the podcast i would love to stay in contact with you and i would love to stay in community with you so you can get fresh updates when i put out new episodes19:37I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week, wherever you are, and here is to you, mindful masturbation. Take care.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-imperfect-buddhist/donations

japan embrace porn sexuality buddhist zen buddhism dharma masturbation grow rich hara tmi oh god thich nhat hanh mindless zen buddhism dhammapada 25i 50if

Session 2.6: November 3, 2023

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2023

Scripture Reading: Acts 1:12 - 2:13 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called the Mount of Olives (which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away). 13 When they had entered Jerusalem, they went to the upstairs room where they were staying. Peter and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James were there. 14 All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers. 15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a gathering of about 120 people) and said, 16 “Brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit foretold through David concerning Judas—who became the guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 for he was counted as one of us and received a share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man Judas acquired a field with the reward of his unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19 This became known to all who lived in Jerusalem, so that in their own language they called that field Hakeldama, that is, “Field of Blood.”) 20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his house become deserted, and let there be no one to live in it,' and ‘Let another take his position of responsibility.' 21 Thus one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time the Lord Jesus associated with us, 22 beginning from his baptism by John until the day he was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness of his resurrection together with us.” 23 So they proposed two candidates: Joseph called Barsabbas (also called Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know the hearts of all. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to assume the task of this service and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 Then they cast lots for them, and the one chosen was Matthias; so he was counted with the eleven apostles.1 Now when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like a violent wind blowing came from heaven and filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues spreading out like a fire appeared to them and came to rest on each one of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them.5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven residing in Jerusalem. 6 When this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was in confusion because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Completely baffled, they said, “Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and the province of Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great deeds God has done!” 12 All were astounded and greatly confused, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others jeered at the speakers, saying, “They are drunk on new wine!”Main ThemesWAITING ON THE PROMISE AND SELECTING A NEW APOSTLEThe fulfillment of Acts 1: 8 is interrupted by a problem left over from the gospel. One of the twelve witnesses must be replaced. Yet there is also a sense in which 1:12-26 is not simply a “problem” but part of the preparation for Pentecost. The disciples pray together (which is often linked with the Spirit's descent) and the leadership structure for the righteous remnant of Israel is restored.The Physical Setting—The Upper RoomOne might suppose that the entire group was staying in one upper room, but surely Luke means only that they habitually met there. No upper room would accommodate 120 people, and certainly the women would not have stayed with the men. One may also ask: which upper room? The definite article might suggest that this was a well-known upper room. The reader of Luke-Acts will infer that it is probably the same upper room that hosted the Last Supper (Luke 22:11-12).The Theological Setting—The RemnantWhat do I mean by a righteous remnant? Throughout the rocky history of the nation of Israel, full of disobedience to God, a small contingent always remained faithful. This was the remnant—quite literally, what remained and rebuilt after each of God's judgments. One can hardly avoid connecting this idea of a righteous remnant to the apostles, particularly given their number (12, just like the tribes of Israel). Thus, selecting a twelfth apostle was important to restore the symbolic value of the first leaders of the church. Israel's remnant fits well into the context of the Spirit and Israel's restoration and role in salvation. In fact, this is the fulfillment of God's first covenant with his people. All the way back in Genesis, God promised Abraham:Now the Lord said to Abram,“Go out from your country, your relatives, and your father's householdto the land that I will show you.Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,and I will make your name great,so that you will exemplify divine blessing.I will bless those who bless you,but the one who treats you lightly I must curse,so that all the families of the earth may receive blessing through you.” Genesis 12:1-3The continuity between Genesis and Acts is incredible.12 out of (Approximately) 120 and the Language of CallingThe connection between the apostles and the remnant is reinforced when we notice the number of apostles and how Peter spoke of their calling. Peter notes that Judas the traitor had received the same privileges of calling that the other eleven had. Judas is described as being “numbered.” Peter describes the apostolic calling here as a “service” in which Judas once shared. Peter also describes this calling in terms of a “portion” or “lot” in the service. This description reinforces the fact that possessors of the office of apostle were chosen by divine purpose, including the betrayer. There is a beautiful connection between Peter's language and the Old Testament. In Numbers, for example, God chooses the Levites to serve as his priests:5 The Lord spoke to Moses: 6 “Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may serve him. 7 They are responsible for his needs and the needs of the whole community before the tent of meeting, by attending to the service of the tabernacle. 8 And they are responsible for all the furnishings of the tent of meeting, and for the needs of the Israelites, as they serve in the tabernacle. 9 You are to assign the Levites to Aaron and his sons; they will be assigned exclusively to him out of all the Israelites. 10 So you are to appoint Aaron and his sons, and they will be responsible for their priesthood, but the unauthorized person who comes near must be put to death.”11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses: 12 “Look, I myself have taken the Levites from among the Israelites instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the Israelites. So the Levites belong to me, 13 because all the firstborn are mine. When I destroyed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, I set apart for myself all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast. They belong to me. I am the Lord.” Number 3:5-13Furthermore, notice the numbers involved. Twelve are chosen out of approximately 120. A tenth. Like the tithe.Any tithe of the land, from the grain of the land or from the fruit of the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. Leviticus 27:30Or exactly like in Nehemiah (during the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian exile).So the leaders of the people settled in Jerusalem, while the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of every ten to settle in Jerusalem, the holy city, while the other nine remained in other cities. The people gave their blessing on all the men who volunteered to settle in Jerusalem. Nehemiah 11:1-2Sometimes I think we miss the point that Acts is the restoration of Israel through the remnant of the people of God. Put simply, the Spirit comes, the sick are healed, the remnant rebuilds. Acts is the coming of the kingdom.CHOOSING A SUCCESSORMany church assemblies in Acts addressed controversial issues (Acts 6:1; 11:2-3; 15:1-7; 21:21-22); the matter of choosing Judas's successor, however, seems not so much controversial as necessary to prepare a united witness for the time when the Spirit would come.The Problem—Judas the BetrayerIn Acts, Peter speaks of Judas as a guide to those who arrested Jesus. However, Luke's audience would surely think of the fuller account of this betrayal in Luke. Treachery or betrayal was considered one of the most heinous offenses in antiquity, a breach of sacred trust. Notice that just like in the Gospel John, this treachery is not treated as a surprise. Instead, it was foretold. Jesus knew what would happen if he remained with Judas. Jesus went intentionally to his grave.How Did Judas Die?In the Bible, we have multiple accounts of Judas's death. Yet Matthew's version of Judas's demise seems to differ at key points from Luke's. Is it possible to reconcile these accounts?Now when Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus had been condemned, he regretted what he had done and returned the 30 silver coins to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood!” But they said, “What is that to us? You take care of it yourself!” So Judas threw the silver coins into the temple and left. Then he went out and hanged himself. The chief priests took the silver and said, “It is not lawful to put this into the temple treasury, since it is blood money.” After consulting together they bought the Potter's Field with it, as a burial place for foreigners. For this reason that field has been called the “Field of Blood” to this day. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the 30 silver coins, the price of the one whose price had been set by the people of Israel, and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me.” Matthew 27:3-10The major differences are (1) whether Judas obtained the field himself (Acts 1:18 vs. Matt 27:7) and (2) how he met his end (Acts 1:18 vs. Matt 27:5). Regarding the first problem, perhaps Luke's narrative stems from his (or his sources') abbreviation of a longer account that could have included the high priests or that the priests, counting the money as legally belonging to Judas, could have bought the field in Judas's name. Regarding the second problem, plausibly, if Judas hanged himself from a tall tree or building in the sort of rocky field natural in Judean hill country, his innards might well spatter (assuming that the tree was tall) when someone cut or (less likely) untied the rope (or it eventually broke). (This assumes that the body was cut down before it decomposed or before it was picked apart by scavengers; in view of Judean piety, this assumption is likely, again assuming that the corpse was found, as it probably would have been if near Jerusalem.) Others have suggested the possibility of the body's being torn down and opened by wild dogs, fitting both versions. Luke or his source would then report the gorier fate of Judas's corpse rather than his actual mode of death.Qualifications for ApostleshipPeter lists the qualifications (1:20) for Judas's replacement. This gives us great insight into the requirements to be an apostle, so we should spend a minute or two making note of them.Antiquity was no stranger to lists of qualifications, particularly for reliable witnesses. Peter could have safely assumed that Judas' replacement had to be of good moral character and male. (Male testimony was nearly always accepted most highly. There could also be theological reasons to select a male.) But, what were the special qualifications to be not simply a witness but an apostle?Thus one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time the Lord Jesus associated with us, beginning from his baptism by John until the day he was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness of his resurrection together with us. Acts 1:21-22This looks like one requirement but, in a sense, it is two. First, an apostle had to be a firsthand eyewitness of all of Jesus' ministry—from his baptism to his resurrection. Choosing those who had spent the most time with Jesus was important so that they could guarantee and interpret the message about him. Moreover, in antiquity just like now, eyewitness sources were considered the best, and those further removed from the witnesses were considered weaker.Second, and this is implied but it is no less important, an apostle had to be one of those who persevered. At the cross, all disciples deserted Jesus. So that desertion could be ignored (or all persons would be disqualified from discipleship). Nevertheless, throughout Jesus' ministry many of his followers left him. Recall, for example, the crowd's reaction after Jesus fed the five thousand and taught them that he was the bread of life:I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that a person may eat from it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”Then the Jews who were hostile to Jesus began to argue with one another, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.…Then many of his disciples, when they heard these things, said, “This is a difficult saying! Who can understand it?” When Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining about this, he said to them, “Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had already known from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)…After this many of his disciples quit following him and did not accompany him any longer. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You don't want to go away too, do you?” John 6:41b-53, 60-64, 66-67Two Are Proposed, Lots Are CastTwo candidates are proposed by the community: Joseph called Barsabbas (also called Justus) and Matthias. (“Joseph” was a very common name, hence requiring some further description. Historians often provided additional names for historical figures with common names.)How did the apostles choose between the two men? First, they prayed in recognition of two facts: (1) God knows the hearts of all men, and (2) God selects the apostles.Then they prayed, “Lord, you know the hearts of all. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to assume the task of this service and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25I discussed God's election of his apostles above. The idea that God knows men's hearts is also not new. We read statements to that effect in John, and it appears throughout the Old Testament. For example:But the Lord said to Samuel, “Don't be impressed by his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. God does not view things the way people do. People look on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7So, the assembly's prayer indicates that they are depending on God to provide the right replacement for Judas. The Lord's “choosing” Matthias provides continuity with his “choosing” other apostles. The question we often have is whether casting lots was the proper way to let God choose or communicate his decision.(By the way, what are lots? The lots may have been stones or pottery fragments shaken in a container, with Matthias's being the first to emerge.)Lot oracles (usually answering yes/no questions or other binary choices) were common in antiquity. Many cities had dice oracles for their citizens to consult in city centers. More relevant here is the use of lots for choosing public officials. Various classical Athenian officials were chosen by lot. Democracies in particular, but also other Greek cities, used lots to distribute, with a minimum of conflict, public offices among those who were equally eligible. The use of lots is also well documented in Ptolemaic and Roman Egypt. In the Roman Republic, Romans could evade partisan politics by drawing lots. Romans did not use lots for selecting normal magistrates but did use them for selecting judges and other offices. Lots could be used to decide who would lead in battle, which general would go to war, which positions the legions would take in battle, which members of a disgraced cohort would be beaten to death, who might be sacrificed, and whose property would have to be sold.The point is that the apostles did not use some weird or irresponsible system to decide between Joseph and Matthias. They used a fairly standard procedure to elect officials when the candidates were equally qualified. Perhaps this is why casting lots seemed unobjectionable to the apostles and the rest of the believers. At the same time, we should notice that casting lots is not used again by the apostles. So, we should not consider its use prescriptive for the church.PentecostAll Together in One Place—Where?The Pentecost miracle happened when all the disciples were together in one place (Acts 2:1). To be honest, I always assumed that was the upper room mentioned in chapter 1. Maybe that's right, but maybe it isn't. If one inspects the text closely, the place is not specified. There are two choices for this unspecified location: the temple or a private home (presumably the one with the upper room).Before we consider the evidence, why would think the temple was their gathering place? The narrative that follows verse 2:1 implies that either they were in or at some point they enter the temple courts. Nowhere else in Jerusalem could they have drawn a crowd sufficient to produce three thousand converts, whereas the Temple Mount could fit about seventy-five thousand people. So, the disciples were either in or near the temple. Let's consider some of the evidence.The apostles frequently met in the temple (Luke 24:53; Acts 2:46; 5:12) but also “from house to house” (Acts 2:46), so both options are plausible. But maybe we can figure it out from verse two, which refers to the “entire house” being filled. Is the term “house" dispositive of the issue? Not decisively. The temple or tabernacle is called a house in Luke 6:4 and 19:46 (quoting Isaiah 56) and Acts 7:46-47; but the term also appears in contrast to the temple (Luke 1:23; Acts 2:46; 5:42), and Luke's emphasis on house meetings makes that sense more likely (Acts 2:46; 5:42; 20:20).If we favor preceding context over following context (i.e., chapter 1 over chapter 3), as someone reading the book in sequence for the first time would do and consider the allusion to the disciples' unity, we might be pointed back to the upper room of 1:13. If this is the case, we might conclude that the disciples rushed from there into the temple, still praising God. A transition from upper room to temple is plausible. Any home large enough to host huge numbers in an upper room would have to have been in the Upper City near the Temple Mount.When? During the Festival of PentecostPentecost, another name for the Feast of Weeks, was one of the great Jewish pilgrimage festivals, and as such, it would have been heavily attended by Jews from all over the world (as they knew it) and perhaps some Gentile tourists. Its history dates to the Old Testament. As a scholar explains:The Passover feast was celebrated at twilight in the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month (Lev 23:5). It was followed on the fifteenth day by the beginning of the closely related seven-day Feast of Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:6). On the next day, the sixteenth, the first fruits of the (barley) harvest had to be brought to the Lord (Lev 23:11, cf. vv. 6-7). Seven weeks and one day later, the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) was celebrated, during which, among other things, offerings from the grain (wheat) harvest and two loaves of bread had to be brought to God (Exod 34:22; Lev 23:1517). (The fact that this festival was on the fiftieth day later gave rise to the name Pentecost, from the Greek word for “fiftieth.”)Although many ancient estimates of festival attendance may be exaggerations (e.g., later rabbinic estimates), massive attendance (in the thousands or tens of thousands) is not disputed. Such well-attended festivals were not unusual in the Mediterranean. Both pious believers and tourists would attend. Well-to-do Greeks and Romans apparently visited sanctuaries as tourists, and it is reasonable to guess that the Jerusalem temple's grandeur may have drawn a few Gentile tourists. Nevertheless, pilgrims would constitute the vast majority of visitors for Pentecost.Although Scripture demanded the attendance of all Israelite males at these festivals (Exodus 23:17; 34:23; Deuteronomy 16:16), first-century Jews seem to have applied the requirement only within the Holy Land itself due to practical realities. Some sources suggest that more Diaspora Jews attended Pentecost than Passover because of the difficulties of traveling earlier in the season.Although Pentecost was originally a harvest festival, eventually a tradition developed that associated the occassion with the giving of Law at Sinai. Whether this tradition was known by Luke and his audience or relevant to them is disputed. Luke certainly does not acknowledge the connection. Luke mentions Pentecost for two clear reasons: he shows that, as Jesus had promised, the disciples did not have long to wait for the gift of the Spirit (1:5), and he explains why so many Diaspora Jews were present to recognize the languages spoken (2:5-12).The MiracleWind and FireOn Pentecost, God provided objective, external phenomena to confirm the internal empowerment taking place when he filled the church with the Spirit. Yet, we should notice that Luke is reserved in his description. He speaks of it “like” wind and “like” fire, just as he spoke of the Spirit coming on Jesus as “like” a dove. This might be intentional on his part, to prevent the reader from understanding the Spirit as a substance—as the Greeks would have done. Instead, Luke presents a more Jewish and biblical theology, in which the Spirit is only compared to substances.Why wind and fire? Broadly speaking, this imagery would have connected with anyone in the ancient world. Theophanic storm images of wind and fire were common signs of divine presence. But, is there a more specific connection we should make?WindWind often indicates the powerful presence of God in the Old Testament. In particular, the scene in Acts evokes Ezekiel 37 (more on that in a minute).In Acts 2:2, Luke uses a rare term for “wind.” The term πνοῆς appears elsewhere in the New Testament only at Acts 17:25, where it refers to human “breath” as a gift of God (and alludes directly to Gen 2:7). It appears 24 times in the Septuagint, referring especially to the breath of life. Whereas the more common term for “wind” and “breath” in Greek provides more obvious associations with God's “Spirit,” the term used by Luke points us to Genesis and life-giving. Moreover, Jewish tradition connected the divine breath of Gen 2:7 with the eschatological wind of the Spirit in Ezekiel 37. Jewish people expected an eschatological “wind” of the Spirit to bring the breath of life into the slain of Israel. A redacted version of Ezekiel 37 is presented below:The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and placed me in the midst of the valley, and it was full of bones. 2 He made me walk all around among them. I realized there were a great many bones in the valley, and they were very dry. 3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said to him, “Sovereign Lord, you know.” 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and tell them: ‘Dry bones, listen to the Lord's message. 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: Look, I am about to infuse breath into you and you will live. 6 I will put tendons on you and muscles over you and will cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am the Lord.'”7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. There was a sound when I prophesied— I heard a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 As I watched, I saw tendons on them, then muscles appeared, and skin covered over them from above, but there was no breath in them.9 He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath—prophesy, son of man—and say to the breath: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these corpses so that they may live.'” 10 So I prophesied as I was commanded, and the breath came into them; they lived and stood on their feet, an extremely great army.11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Look, they are saying, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope has perished; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy, and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Look, I am about to open your graves and will raise you from your graves, my people. I will bring you to the land of Israel. 13 Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and raise you from your graves, my people. 14 I will place my breath in you and you will live; I will give you rest in your own land. Then you will know that I am the Lord—I have spoken and I will act, declares the Lord.'”…24 “‘My servant David will be king over them; there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow my regulations and carefully observe my statutes. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, in which your fathers lived; they will live in it—they and their children and their grandchildren forever. David my servant will be prince over them forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be a perpetual covenant with them. I will establish them, increase their numbers, and place my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then, when my sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel.'” Ezekiel 37If you remember from our study of John, Jesus continually promised life, abundant and eternal. We need to look no further than the famous verse, John 3:16For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.Notice, therefore, that if the Spirit gives life, and we receive the Spirit now, then Acts is presenting a realized eschatology. Eternal life begins now.FireFire was also commonly associated with the presence of God in the Old Testament. Perhaps the best-known example is the burning bush:Now Moses was shepherding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within a bush. He looked, and the bush was ablaze with fire, but it was not being consumed! Exodus 3:1-3The other major example (although many more could be provided) is the pillar of fire that guided the Israelites through the desert.They journeyed from Sukkoth and camped in Etham, on the edge of the desert. Now the Lord was going before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them in the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel day or night. He did not remove the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night from before the people. Exodus 13:20-22Fire was also an image associated with judgments, including end-time judgments, and purification. More importantly, Luke's informed audience would quickly connect the fire with Luke 3:16-17 (which, incidentally, contains both motifs).John answered them all, “I baptize you with water, but one more powerful than I am is coming—I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clean out his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with inextinguishable fire.” Luke 3:16-17Though less common than simply “flames,” the expression “tongues of fire” is common in Jewish texts, perhaps because fire is often said to devour (sometimes translated as consumes). For example, the expression appears in the Qumran scrolls. Of course, Luke may have also selected that comparison to make a connection with the Spirit empowering the disciples to speak in tongues.EmpoweredIn Scripture, the phrase “filled with the Spirit” applied to the Spirit's gifting for skills, whether in sacred craftsmanship (Exodus 31:3; 35:31), for leadership (Deuteronomy 34:9), or for prophecy (Micah 3:8). Luke employs the biblical phrase “filled with the Spirit” frequently, especially for an experience enabling prophets and prophetic inspiration (Luke 1:15, 41, 67) and for power for Christian proclamation, both for apostles (Acts 4: 8; 9:17; 13:9) and others (4:31; 13:52).Speaking in TonguesIn Greek, the term for tongues, as in tongues of fire or speaking in tongues, is glōssais. Just like in English, the term can refer to a physical, literal tongue (e.g., “I burned my tongue”) or a language. The activity of speaking in tongues is glossolalia, which just means speaking (although it was often used to refer to prophetic speech).The idea of the Spirit of God enabling Christ followers to speak in tongues is rather novel. There is scant precedent. In one document from Qumran, different angels apparently lead the heavenly worship on successive Sabbaths in different languages. There is also a Jewish source speaking of divine sashes that allowed some women to speak in Angelic languages—but this source may be later than Acts (and the languages spoken by the women are described as intelligible, so perhaps they are no angelic after all). So, Spirit-inspired use of other languages seems unprecedented in the Judaic background of Acts.However, Jewish tradition certainly affirmed Spirit-filled prophecy. For example, consider 1 Samuel:Afterward you will go to Gibeah of God, where there are Philistine officials. When you enter the town, you will meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place. They will have harps, tambourines, flutes, and lyres, and they will be prophesying. 6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will rush upon you and you will prophesy with them. You will be changed into a different person. When these signs have taken place, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God will be with you. 1 Samuel 10:5-7Could this speaking in tongues have been borrowed from non-Jewish cultures? As Craig Keener points out:Many scholars think that the early Christian experience of tongues originated in such magical syllables or in unintelligible ecstatic speech, attested in both Egypt and Greece. The extant early Christian understandings of the experience, however (in Luke and Paul), do not reflect this background, and the experience probably (as Luke suggests) initially predates the expansion of Christianity into a Diaspora setting where such a background could make sense.In short, God-empowered speaking in tongues, even if interpreted liberally, was unusual in the ancient world. However, it is central to Acts and the early church. This kind of speaking in tongues is even attested to by church fathers. For example, Irenaeus (c. 130 – 202 AD) wrote:In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God . . . . Her. 5.6.1A Reversal of BabelMany people (including scholars and commentators, current and ancient) understand Acts 2 as a reversal of the Babel story and believe that Luke patterned his narrative after it. The allusion is not immediately clear but there are some indications. The table of nations in Genesis 10 (shortly preceding the Babel narrative) seems to inform the list of nations in Acts 2. Acts 2 speaks of spreading tongues and confusion, using terms that sound similar to the confusion of tongues in the Babel narrative. More importantly, whether the author makes a textual allusion or not, the theological inference seems justified. Let's read the Babel story.The whole earth had a common language and a common vocabulary. . . . Then they said, “Come, let's build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens so that we may make a name for ourselves. Otherwise we will be scattered across the face of the entire earth.”But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the people had started building. And the Lord said, “If as one people all sharing a common language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be beyond them. Come, let's go down and confuse their language so they won't be able to understand each other.”So the Lord scattered them from there across the face of the entire earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why its name was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the entire world, and from there the Lord scattered them across the face of the entire earth.In Babel, God scattered nations for trying to deify themselves, paralleling Adam's revolt and his expulsion from the garden. By contrast, the disciples at Pentecost were waiting in obedience to a divine command; instead of trying to reach heaven, they were waiting for their Lord, who had ascended to heaven, to send them the Spirit. In Gen 11:7, God descended to confound the transgressors, but at Pentecost God descends to clarify the mystery of the gospel to all people. In Genesis, God descended and scattered tongues to prevent unity; in Acts, the Spirit descends and scatters tongues to create unity across cultures and nations.I said last time, but I will say it again. The coming of the Spirit, the story of Acts, is the beginning of the end of the world. The curse on sinful mankind is being reversed. The kingdom of God is both here and growing. The message of salvation spreads from Israel to all nations.

god jesus christ church lord english israel spirit man bible law brothers holy spirit blood christianity romans festival acts jewish language greek rome field jerusalem exodus jews kingdom of god old testament greece sabbath male new testament eternal feast judas pentecost passover deuteronomy gentiles twelve israelites mount historians mediterranean leviticus babel recall qualifications libya diaspora dry judea sinai ingen speaking in tongues babylonians lev approximately holy land philistines book of psalms olives angelic prophesy arabs in acts mesopotamia jethro in genesis levites bartholomew antiquity midian zealots treachery sovereign lord pontus democracies horeb cyrene temple mount judean cappadocia athenian roman republic medes septuagint irenaeus galileans sabbaths alphaeus gospel john phrygia qumran judaic parthians cretans pamphylia in numbers gibeah elamites luke acts now moses ptolemaic barsabbas 22this 25i pentecost god scripture reading acts diaspora jews etham last supper luke

Ep 30: ADHD or Not? How Discovering ADHD in Adulthood Changes Your Life (ft. Dr. Jan Willer)

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 4, 2023 55:04

Hey, we're back! I'm so excited to bring you the first of many new episodes in our 3rd season of Focus Forward. Considering it's ADHD awareness month, I wanted to explore something relating ADHD that we hadn't done before. In this week's episode, we're tackling adult ADHD and the life-changing journey of getting a late diagnosis. This episode is particularly special for me as it documents my own personal journey in discovering that I have ADHD (in real time!) This journey of revelation began with a conversation I had last year with Dr. Jan Willer - a clinical psychologist who specializes in supporting those with ADHD. After our conversation, I began to seriously suspect that I, too, might have ADHD. In this episode, we'll explore the difficult question of "do I have ADHD or not?" and the impact that getting a diagnosis can have on our life and sense of self. I hope you enjoy this one! Resources Related to this EpisodeDr. Jan Willer's ResourcesJan's books on AmazonADHD ResourcesAdult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)CHADDAdult ADHD ToolkitBeyond BookSmart's ADHD Success KitHow to Thrive with ADHD After a DiagnosisEp 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDWomen's ADHD Wellbeing PodcastContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18We are back after our summer break. Yay. Today's episode is super special. Not only is it our first episode of season three, but it is also our 30th episode. I know there are podcasts out there with hundreds and hundreds of episodes. But I just have to say I'm super proud of this achievement, and I'm so glad you're here with me today to celebrate. On top of all that fun stuff is also ADHD Awareness Month. In today's episode, I'm going to share some of my own ADHD story which all started when someone very close to me was diagnosed a couple of years ago. hearing their story got me thinking about my own life experience through an ADHD lens. I recorded the ADHD episode and have an excuse me had a couple of clients whose challenges I could relate to more than just a little bit of a coincidence. Dr. Sherrie All, the star of the Focus Forward episode 16 all about memory connected me with Dr. Jan Willer, a licensed clinical psychologist who lives in Chicago, and she has written two books for practitioners - Could It Be Adult ADHD?, and The Beginning Psychotherapist's Companion, I thought Jan would be a great person to talk with. Jan and I recorded twice, once back in January and the second time just last month in September. The first time we talked about ADHD and what it is, and then spent a while talking about my own experience and symptoms. In September, we met again to reconnect and talk about the post diagnosis experience, and how people can both support themselves or the people they love who have ADHD. So today's episode is all about ADHD. And because it's ADHD Awareness Month, I hope my story helps someone out there find the confidence to go get tested. As you'll hear it has been a positive and life changing experience for me. So first up is our conversation from January. Hannah Choi 02:20Hi, Jan, thank you so much for joining me on focus forward.Jan Willer, PhD 02:25I am really excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.Hannah Choi 02:29This is take two right? We tried last week but my, I'm a migraine person and my migraines got in the way. So I'm glad we're able to do this today. Glad I migraine free today. Yeah, so we are going to talk about ADHD in adults and what that experience is like for people and how they got there. And so can you share a little bit with our listeners about why about why I'm talking to you about ADHD?Jan Willer, PhD 03:03Sure, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Well, I've been interested in ADHD for a good while. And actually a number of years ago, a psychiatrist that I would refer to would start referring adult ADHD clients, to me just kind of out of nowhere. And at that point in time, I didn't know very much about ADHD in adults. And just as a little sidebar, graduate schools usually don't teach very much about adult ADHD. And so every mental health professional out there who knows much about it has taught themselves and gone to seminars and that type of thing. But anyway, so I started teaching myself about it. And the more I learned, the more interested I became, and, you know, it's just a population of folks who really are undertreated a lot of the time and a little education and a little help with executive functioning issues can go and maybe a little bit of medication can really go a very long way in terms of helping people feel better and feel like they're functioning better as well.Hannah Choi 04:16I see that in the clients, the adult clients that I've worked with, where they have experienced exactly that with a little bit of medication, a little bit executive function, coaching, and just like a lot of knowledge, it's really made some big differences. What are what brings someone what are the questions that people have when they come to say, like, I think I might have ADHD?Jan Willer, PhD 04:41Well, a lot of the time, people will come to me and they've already been wondering about whether they have ADHD for a long time. And many people who've had ADHD their entire lives, were not diagnosed as children. And it used you know, back in the old days, it used to be thought that if it wasn't really obvious as a child, and the child wasn't pretty impaired from ADHD, then a person who is an adult couldn't possibly have ADHD. Now we know now that that's not true, because there's a lot of folks who don't get diagnosed for various reasons. Maybe because they just had inattentive type ADHD, and they were well behaved kids. And so, and they were, you know, pretty smart, and they just kind of flew under the radar and their grades weren't amazing, but they weren't disrupting the class, and they were just kind of daydreaming. And, you know, nobody really noticed that they were having some learning issues. So a lot of the time, those are the folks that kind of end up coming to us. But also, sometimes people may have had some hyperactivity as a kid, but their parents, and their schools really recognize that they need a lot of exercise. And so they would get put into sports and all kinds of camps that gave him plenty of exercise and this, so they coped, okay. And they didn't have behavior issues. So, you know, in the past, most of the folks with ADHD who are identified as children were people who had behavior issues, and usually white boys as well. But now we realize that anybody could have ADHD. And, and I think that is that information has gotten out into the popular consciousness. And so people are soaking that up and going, Oh, wow, maybe I have that. That sounds kind of like me. I just thought it was a flaw I had, but maybe I have ADHD.Hannah Choi 06:46So something that I've noticed, just in my observations of people talking about, if they have ADHD, or if they wonder if they do, I have noticed. And I think that there is a stigma around around it around being diagnosed with it and around having those challenges. Do you see that in the people that come to you do, do they express those hesitations?Jan Willer, PhD 07:16You know, I think it varies a lot by the age of the person. Because it seems like, you know, young adults have are much more knowledgeable about people who are neurodivergent, and often seem to have a lot less stigma about that, you know, they understand that people is some people have ADHD, some people are autistic, it's, you know, it's not necessarily such a big deal to them. It's just more a recognition of individual differences. But for people who are, you know, middle aged and older, for sure, and possibly also younger than that, it kind of depends on you know, the environment the person grew up in, they're often did grow up at a time where there was a lot of stigma about having ADHD. And there were a lot of stereotypes about people who had ADHD, which were often wrong. And there may not have even been an understanding that ADHD lasted to adulthood. And so they've often just internalized a lot of shame about some of their life challenges that are very, like completely related to ADHD.Hannah Choi 08:30Can you just talk a little bit about what ADHD is for any listeners who might just kind of have like a surface knowledge of it? And maybe we can help any listeners who might be questioning whether they they might and then maybe some, maybe you could share like some symptoms or some characteristics that aren't necessarily fully known? I mean, that the name of it ADHD, like is Attention Deficit Hyperactive disorder, but like you said before, many people can have ADHD but be the inattentive type. So maybe just share a little bit about what it is.Jan Willer, PhD 09:09Sure, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the first type of symptom of ADHD that was really recognized was the hyperactivity. And you know, if you've ever seen a hyperactive kid, that's pretty obvious. I mean, that's a kid that's just bouncing off the walls full of energies, maybe really talkative. And so, and then over time, it became clear that a lot of those kids also had some challenges with paying attention, despite, you know, in addition to their high energy level and tendency to bounce off the walls, and then it became clear that there are kids who had the inattentiveness alone. They didn't have the hyperactivity, but they still had a hard time paying attention consistently, especially in school and that was kind of where it was the most obvious but, you know, sometimes that home to their parents would say do this or that and they just kind of lose track of it didn't really absorb that information, or procrastinated, which can be a symptom of ADHD too. And then, you know, as things went along, people started to recognize that for most people, they do not grow out of ADHD. Most ADHD does last to adulthood, not every single one. But most, for sure. And as they recognize that ADHD, lastly to adulthood, they would see that adults with ADHD had a lot of executive functioning problems. And I'm sure that your listeners have a good understanding by now of what executive functioning. So I'm not gonna go into detail about that, because I'm sure you've covered that in a lot of different podcasts. Yeah. And the they actually, many experts actually consider the executive functioning problems to be more disabling for people who have ADHD as adults than either inattention or hyperactivity. Yeah. And we'll see that too. Sure. And when you look back at people who have ADHD as adults, it turns out that the executive functioning problems are a lifelong problem. They're just less obvious in kids, because with kids, the adults in their lives, be it their teachers and parents, you know, other other adults will structure their lives for them. And so they don't have to do as much executive functioning as an adult. That's right. And often, when people who have ADHD go off to college or leave home for the first time, they may, they often do have a lot of struggles initially, because they're not used to doing their own structuring for themselves.Hannah Choi 12:02Yeah, absolutely. I see. And most of my clients are college kids. And that's exactly what I see. Every pretty much in every every client, like, Wow, a lot of things were structured for me in high school. And I thought that I could, you know, just keep up doing the same thing once I got to college and wait a second. Not exactly working out as I thought it would. Jan Willer, PhD 12:24Yeah, and things can really fall apart pretty fast. Because nobody's telling them to get up. And people who have ADHD have a tendency to be night owls. And so, and especially, and sometimes it's so extreme that they could even get a diagnosis of delayed sleep phase disorder, which is a sleep disorder. And so that difficulty getting up to go to things, stay up till three in the morning, hanging out with friends playing video games, whatever, you know, and then they don't want to get up until 11. And class was it 9:30? Yeah, yeah. So there's can be a lot of different pieces to the difficulties that college students can have.Hannah Choi 13:07I know a big part of ADHD for kids and adults. But maybe we can talk about adults here is the self regulation and emotional regulation. How, how does that show up? What do you see in your practice?Jan Willer, PhD 13:23Yeah, I mean, that is indeed a common problem. And about half of people who have ADHD as adults do have this emotional dysregulation problem. And what it consists of is, when people have something stressful, occur, they tend to be especially reacted to that. And it could be just kind of ordinary stuff, like somebody cutting you off in traffic, or it could be something bigger, like, you know, some family crisis or something, or, you know, just a minor change, like, you know, they were looking for peppers in the refrigerator, and they didn't have any, and they were going to, that was going to be a key part of what they're going to make for dinner. And so these stressors, whether they're big or even little, can lead to some pretty intense emotional reactions for the person and the person can feel irritated and frustrated and aggravated. And, you know, depending on the individual, some people have kind of learned to hold all that in because they've realized that other people don't react well, when they're next to somebody who's really, you know, having an outburst about a minor stressor, but other people don't have the, you know, ability, at least in that moment to hold that in and may have, you know, a verbal outburst or a temper outburst or something in response. And that can be, you know, really challenging for the person because they look around at everybody else and they're like, wait a minute, these other people are having stressors to, but I'm reacting somewhat differently from them. And again, this is sometimes where there's shame or embarrassment. Because the person then feels bad about themselves for having a strong emotional reaction when other people might not. Yeah. But unfortunately, it can be a part of their ADHD struggle.Hannah Choi 15:22That's so interesting. I didn't ever know that, that that how closely connected that was to ADHD?Jan Willer, PhD 15:29Yeah, it really should be a symptom that is in the official diagnostic manual, but it's not.Hannah Choi 15:36What are some other symptoms that people might not know about?Jan Willer, PhD 15:40You know, that's a really good question. One symptom that I actually see all the time, is that often people who have ADHD have a really hard time getting to sleep. And they lie down in bed, and they're ready to go to sleep. And their brain just starts going and going and going. And it's very active. You know, folks who don't have ADHD, when they lie down and go to sleep, their brain is kind of like slowing down and not very full of stuff. As long as they're not stressed or anxious about something, yeah. But a person who has ADHD, their brain just tends to be at very active all the time. And that's not true for everybody. But it's true for a very large proportion of people who have ADHD and, and their brains activity will keep them awake. And they may stay awake for an hour when they're trying to go to sleep with their brain just churning over all kinds of different stuff. The default mode network is a network that so the brain has many different networks of connectivity. And the default mode network is one of those. And they call it that because they people used to think that if you weren't doing something, then your brain wasn't thinking about anything. Now, anyone who has tried to meditate knows that that's ridiculous. Yes. Because of you not doing anything, which is what meditation is, to some extent about your brain is full of ideas. And yeah. So so that's the default mode network kind of churning up ideas and thoughts about your life and how we what's just going on with you what you plan on doing just any old random thoughts about your life. And that area does tend to be extra active and people who have ADHD, which is I like you're pointing out the connection to the sleep onset problem. Yeah, right. Also, that area is supposed to be kind of quieted down, when you're working on a task, that since that area tends to be extra active, and people who have ADHD, often one piece of their challenges with distractibility is that they are distracted by their own thoughts when they're trying to work on things. Right. And so they're really trying to focus that their own thoughts are interrupting their thought process. And a final thing that is probably related to the default mode network in ADHD is that people who, there's a little bit of research, unfortunately, there is really isn't enough research on the positive aspects of ADHD. But there is a little bit of research indicating that people who have ADHD tend to be more creative than the average person, and tend to be really great at brainstorming and thinking up lots of ideas. Hannah Choi 18:41I was reading about that. And, and the article was saying that it may be because they're able to not gonna remember the whole brain part of it, but they're able to make connections that might not necessarily be able to be made by someone as easily if they don't have ADHD. Jan Willer, PhD 19:03Yeah, absolutely. Sort of. Yeah, that thinks ability in that part of the creativity of the ADHD brain for sure. Yeah.Hannah Choi 19:10Yeah. Huh. It's interesting that if there's one thing that you said was like, not everybody experiences that not being able to fall asleep bit. So what do you think? When when, like, not everyone with ADHD has all the same symptoms? And like, why do you know why that is? And no, it's just probably because we're just all different. But it's so interesting that some people can quiet their default mode network and then others can't. Jan Willer, PhD 19:41Yeah, it is kind of fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think that part of that has to do with the fact that ADHD, there's no one gene that ADHD is carried on right there. There's a lot of research about genetics and ADHD and a lot of it on us Sleep is way too technical for me. But yeah, I can read enough of it understand that there are dozens of genes at least that affect whether a person has ADHD. Okay, and if so to help what degree? Yeah, because some people have a lot of ADHD, some people have a little bit and some people have none. So, right. Right. And that, you know, plus everybody has a different life that they've been through was raised a different way. And so, you know, sometimes I see people with, you know, pretty significant ADHD symptoms, but they have no problem keeping track of their calendar, because they've had folks working with them their whole life about how important that is. And they've really got the skills down.Hannah Choi 20:43Right. Yeah, I imagine, like so much of your about of how your ADHD affects you, as an adult, is decided by just the strategies and the skills that you've learned and the awareness that you have of yourself and the impact that your behaviors have on your life and on others. And with kids. It's harder for them because they they haven't learned to that. Yeah, they just haven't been around long enough to, to kind of know that sort of stuff.Jan Willer, PhD 21:19Yeah, exactly. And, you know, with my client, adult clients, I don't work with kids. I tell them that one advantage that they're bringing to working with their ADHD is maturity. Yeah. Right. Because having that insight into how some of these challenges of ADHD have affected their life negatively, provides a lot of motivation to work on.Hannah Choi 21:45I interviewed Nancy Armstrong, who was the executive producer on a documentary called "The Disruptor"s and, and that her documentary, really highlights, it definitely explores the challenges. And it also highlights the positive side of ADHD. And that's and their work. Yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great watch. They're working really hard to dispel a lot of the myths around ADHD and, and help people find the positives. So in your opinion, what are some of the positives? Jan Willer, PhD 22:19Well, we've already mentioned a lot of them, right? The artistic creativity can be one of them, out of the box, thinking of being more of a divergent thinker who's able to connect a lot of different things. I think that because of people having that out of the box thinking, they're often really valuable team members. And, you know, I personally have, of course, I have no proof of this. But my personal belief is that the reason that the genes for ADHD survive in the population is because it's so helpful in any group of people to have somebody who is really creative and full of all kinds of ideas and thinks about things in a really different way. And, you know, to some extent, that might be true of autism as well.Hannah Choi 23:12So it's really interesting talking with you. And I know, it was a conversation that we had the other day before we came on, and in all the research that I've been doing, and all the clients that I've worked with, I'm realizing the more and more I read and the more and more I talk with people that I really think that I probably have our head like had as a child and still have the inattentive type. So much of, of what I've read, and just things that people have said, I'm like, Oh, my God, that just, I feel validated when I hear that and so it makes me wonder, you know, maybe that was something that I could have gotten help with as a child and, and, and can still now like as an adult, find things that helped me. I'm sure that you've heard a lot of people come into your practice and say something similar. Jan Willer, PhD 24:12Absolutely.Hannah Choi 24:17Okay, so in the interest of time, and potentially embarrassing myself more than I'm comfortable with. I'm going to stop the recording of a conversation here. Right after this. I asked Jan, if she'd be open to talking with me about my own challenges. We talked for a while about my life and what I struggle with and why I think I might have ADHD. It was pretty eye opening and extremely validating. She encouraged me to get a formal diagnosis from someone in my state. After chatting with Jan, I set up an appointment with my primary care physician who is an internal medicine doctor. I was really optimistic on the appointment day but things didn't go as planned. I was reminded of something that Dr. Theresa Cerulli said about how internists will not usually entertain a conversation about ADHD, and will generally refer you to a psychiatrist, which is exactly what mine did. Feeling deflated because I knew a psychiatrists fee would be greater than what I could afford. I remembered my own advice to clients. What would this look like if it were easy? So I reached out to Jan again, for more guidance. Do I need to see a psychiatrist is a full neuro Psych Exam necessary? And who else can I consult besides my doctor? Jan assured me that a full neuropsych exam wasn't required. She explained that due to the shortage of psychiatrists available for ADHD support, other providers can diagnose it without a formal neuropsych exam. And this boosted my confidence to search further. And then I found a local psychiatric nurse practitioner online through psychologytoday.com, which is a great resource for that kind of stuff. We met for over an hour, she asked me all about my health history and my childhood, my college years and my coloring challenges. And we went through the adult ADHD Self-Report scale together, which was hilarious. I kept bursting out laughing at many of the questions because it was me but on paper, and I kept wondering "Was the person who created the scale living in my brain?" Initially, I wasn't sure I wanted to use medication. But after learning about the ADHD brain and how it works, I was more open to it. I remembered something else that Dr. Cerulli said, at least have the conversation about medication options. Whether you use them or not, is up to you but have that conversation. I also felt confident trying medication because I already did all the things you're supposed to do, right? I eat well, I get a lot of exercise, my sleep habits are good. I had created systems that work really well to support myself in EF areas that I struggle with. But honestly, I was exhausted, forcing myself to use them all the time and not being as successful as I probably should have. And honestly, I was being pretty mean to myself inside when I struggled. So something had to change. So I decided to try using ADHD medication. I knew I wasn't interested in stimulants because I wasn't sure how they'd work with the anxiety that I already dealt with. And considering my history, Sophia prescribed the non stimulant Wellbutrin initially, it actually worked really well. But unfortunately, it increased the number of migraines I was having. And interestingly, there is a connection between migraines and people with ADHD. And I'm actually having an appointment with a with a neurologist coming up. And I want to ask more about that and learn more about that connection. So anyway, I switched to another non stimulant called Strattera. And that's actually been working great. It's made a huge difference in reducing the constant chatter in my head until it quieted down in there, I seriously had no idea how much noise I had in my brain all the time. I've also noticed that it's so much easier for me to get started on my work and get back to it if I get interrupted. And I can also stay focused on my work for longer periods of time. And following through on stuff that I don't want to do is not so painfully difficult anymore. And I remember Bob Shae telling me that his meds make it easier to use all the tools he had already implemented. I agree, Bob, I completely agree. I have spent a lot of time reflecting you know, me, I love that self reflection and thinking back to choices that I made and things that I did that were likely because of ADHD. I've been reading and listening to podcasts and talking with people about their ADHD. And I am learning so much. I decided to reach out to Jan again to talk with her about what comes up for people once they've been diagnosed, and what supports will help. We met just recently to record and realize it had been almost nine months since we first talked. Let's check in to hear what we talked about. Hannah Choi 29:17So when we last talked, I asked you about my own experience with ADHD and I really am grateful to you for taking that time with me to walk me through that a little bit uncomfortable, and a little scary conversation and and it's just such a great example of this idea that when we step outside of our comfort zone we end up finding magic and and discovering things that we never knew or we knew about ourselves but we didn't like have words for it. And it's just been who I got chills it's really actually been life changing and I'm I am so grateful for it. So thank you.Jan Willer, PhD 30:03Oh, you're welcome. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I do find that a lot of people really appreciate knowing that they have ADHD. Because it has so much explanatory power for what people have been struggling with. And like you said, sometimes people don't even have the words, yeah, for all of their struggles. So being able to talk about it with a professional and have that person say, Oh, well, people who have ADHD often struggle with this, and this and this and kind of give, give the person the words and the ways to conceptualize it. And then they'll be like, Yes, I do that. And yes, I have that problem, too. And yes, that's so hard for me, really can kind of make a difference in terms of the person understanding themselves, and being able to communicate with their loved ones. And people they work with even the whether they come out about having ADHD or not, they can still say things like, it really doesn't work very well, for me to have a lot of interruptions when I'm trying to work on a project.Hannah Choi 31:13Yes, yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great point that you brought up. And something I wanted to talk about is that whole, you know, disclosing at work type of thing, because so I, you know, I'm very lucky, I work in a job where, you know, I wasn't even an issue for me to disclose, they were just like, okay, yeah, that's great. What's next, you know, and then, and, in fact, it, it probably really helps me as a coach to know and to relate with my clients even more. And, and so I'm very lucky that I work in an environment that is not only extremely accepting of neurodivergence, but also we are in like, the literal business of supporting people who are neurodivergent. And then you know, there's there's other people who may or may not feel safe disclosing that at work. And so I really love that, that that suggestion that you gave just then of how you can disclose your needs without necessarily disclosing your diagnosis. How do you support client, your clients who come to with that struggle?Jan Willer, PhD 32:26Yeah, well, you know, everybody who has ADHD is a little bit different. And so you know, depends on some people work better at home, some people work better in the office, it kind of each person has different situations where they concentrate better. Sometimes that people do better in the office that also certain areas of office are too noisy or distracting. And so they need some help with that. On occasion, I have written accommodation letters for people. And it doesn't always work 100%. But usually, they are able to do something that's helpful to the person. Like I had someone I was talking to once whose cube was right by the coffee machine. And you can imagine how distracting that would be for anybody, much less a person who has ADHD, and they were able to get moved to an area that was a lot quieter. And that made all the difference in terms of being able to be efficient at work. Hannah Choi 33:29Yeah, and I imagine a big part of it is self efficacy and being brave enough to speak up about it. So having someone like you to maybe work through a script, or just kind of talk out what an accommodation might be helpful. I'm, I'm sure that is a big, a big part of people's experience.Jan Willer, PhD 33:50Right. And, you know, people can kind of take two different approaches to that. I mean, one is kind of the official HR approach, you know, going in, I want reasonable accommodations for my ADHD, which legally is considered a disability even though you know, people can discuss whether they could consider it that way or not. And so that's one approach. And the other approach is to say, okay, to think about, well, how is my ADHD interacting negatively with the work environment? And how can I verbalize what my needs are? If I don't feel comfortable or the HR situation isn't optimal in a way that people can hear it and might be willing to work with me on it? Tomorrow, kind of informal approach.Hannah Choi 34:42And I bet when you have an like, I imagined maybe like before someone gets a diagnosis, they still are aware of what their challenges are. Maybe after they get the formal diagnosis. They're like, okay, that might give them some confidence to to ask for what they need there. There's an actual reason why they need that. It's not just that they're bad. They're, you know, there's a real reason. Jan Willer, PhD 35:08Right, and I think you're bringing up a really important point is that a lot of people, you know, like yourself managed to kind of fly under the radar their whole life. And they knew something was going on, they knew they were somewhat different from everybody else. But it often tends to be very internalized. And the person tends to feel like, well, I'm struggling, and all these other people aren't struggling, therefore, there's something wrong with me. And so that, you know, that, then they just kind of end up what caught doing what many people call masking, which is trying to pretend that there isn't an issue, even if they are struggling, and a lot of people can be very successful at pretending. But even though even though inside they're really feeling kind of miserable about Hannah Choi 35:59Yeah, there's a there's a, an internal cost. That is it's maybe not visible, but they are feeling it. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. That That reminds me of, we recently did a webinar about ADHD, and about for people who were newly diagnosed and are curious. And a parent asked about their child who was, I can't remember, I think he was like, older teen young adult kind of college age. So the parents said, he had just been diagnosed, and was feeling like it was a negative thing. And, and, and she was wondering how we could or how she could support him to learn about about it, and maybe see it in a more positive light. And it just made me think like, he's probably spent a lot of his life internalizing all of those things, then you find out, Oh, there's a reason for it. Oh, then this must be a bad thing. So how do you support people who are how can we even our listeners, if we have people, you know, loved ones in our lives? who have been diagnosed? How can we support them? In seeing that it's not all bad?Jan Willer, PhD 37:21Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways to look at this. I mean, one way to look at it is to say, well, you know, if you if you think about it from a disability perspective, which is, you know, one angle to look at things is to say, Okay, well, it's a disability that makes it difficult for this person to learn, in certain situations difficult for the person to work in certain situations take information in and at times, you know, all kinds of other challenges that can come up with that. But does that, does that have to be viewed in a negative and judgmental way? Right, you know, the brain is an organ to the brain, you know, can have issues just like any other organ can have issues. And so, in a way, that's one way of conceptualizing ADHD and thinking about it in terms of not having stigma towards a person who has an illness or a disability or something like that, because nobody deserves that, that's, you know, that's ableism. And that's wrong. So, another way of thinking about it, which I think is is equally valid, is thinking about it in terms of being neurotypical versus neurodivergent. And so, you know, when we think of people who are neurotypical, we're typically talking about a person who doesn't have ADHD, and a person who doesn't have autism. And so, those folks at you know, the world is built around people who are neurotypical is not built to accommodate people who are neurodivergent. And so that's part of the difficulty that people who are neurodivergent have is that it's just not, it's not built for how their brain operates, nothing is built for how their brain offers and the things that are valued, don't tend to be the things that the people who are neurodivergent have to offer. So for example, some of the things that a person who's neurodivergent have to offer our, the, their incredible ability to be really interested and passionate about things and just really dig in and get into something and understand all the incredible connections between they're taught that topic that they're into and everything around it, they're great at understanding things in a network kind of interconnected way. Whereas kind of in this is obviously a little over-simplified, but a person who's neurotypical tends to be more of a linear thinker, whereas a person who has ADHD tends to be more of a, you know, kind of a divergent, tangential type thinker. And also people who have ADHD are often very creative in some way or another, you know, they can be creative in terms of problem solving, coming up with ideas, brainstorming, they also can be very creative in terms of the arts. So, and they're just great at coming up with ideas that no one else ever thought of, you know, and those are not things that the school system was really searching for. Hannah Choi 40:45So help, helping somebody with ADHD who maybe has recently been diagnosed recognize that ability that they have, and recognize how they can use that in a work situation or school situation. Yeah, while simultaneously advocating for themselves to somehow fit successfully into that neurotypical system.Jan Willer, PhD 41:11Right, the neurotypical world. Yeah,Hannah Choi 41:14Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that broke my heart that he that that boy felt that way. Because, and maybe it's just age, right. So I, I found out that I was, you know, I got the answer to all of my questions when I was 46. And so I, I might, you know, I'm just like, just have more life experience, and I'm more mature, I guess. Right. So I was able to, like, kind of go back and, and hug the 20 year old version of me that, you know, didn't understand. And he is that 20 year old version of himself. And so he doesn't, he just has what other people are telling him. So I guess that's not really sure where I'm going with this, but I like, but it just makes me think of when you've been diagnosed, finding people who really support you recognizing your strengths. And, you know, and following your strengths, following your talents, finding a work environment, or a school environment that is willing and open to supporting you as an neurodivergent thinker. With an ADHD brain or an ASD brain, then, you know, that that would I imagine just lead to a better experience, like I'm having, you know, the fact that the work that I do is very well suited for me.Jan Willer, PhD 42:37Yeah, and I think people who have ADHD are especially well suited to professions where there's always something new to learn, there's always a problem to solve. There's always a new person to talk to, you know, and that, and they're really great at engaging in all of those new things that are coming at them and love, usually love learning new things. Yeah. Which I think is really cool.Hannah Choi 43:05It is. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so I was just listening to Ned Hallowell he was on, on a podcast that I really enjoyed listening to with a woman called Kate, I can't remember her last name, but she's a British woman who has a podcast called the ADHD, women's well being podcast, and she interviewed him on there, and he was talking about, and I'm sure he's talked about this and other things, I just happen to hear it on there. But he was talking about how important it is for people with ADHD to, to, to do things that, that they're really interested in and find a job that they are good at, because it's something that they're good at, or because it's something that they're interested in. And to break free from these, like, preconceived notions that society has, like, oh, you need to become this or that or maybe your parents expectation or, or your social circle or whatever. And, and this just another chance, another op op, another situation where a person has to say like, Hey, I might not do things the same as everybody else. Jan Willer, PhD 44:12Absolutely. Right. And doing things different in a different way. Doesn't mean you're doing things in a worse way. Hmm, I like that. Right? Different isn't?Hannah Choi 44:21It's just yeah, it's just different. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Jan Willer, PhD 44:27And, you know, often I'll tell my clients who have ADHD that it's important to work with it rather than against. Yeah, don't fight it and feel like I have to do everything the way exactly the way that a neurotypical person does it or I'm not successful. Yeah, do it in a way that works for you and your own particular brain. And that's great.Hannah Choi 44:52Yeah, just I have a friend who has ADHD and so we've just been talking a lot lately and, and we were talking about how Oh, how it's so fun talking with another person who has ADHD because you can get really tangental and tangential and come right back and other person just follow right along. I had a client this morning, she's like, sorry, I'm all over the place. I'm like, Don't worry, I, I gotcha. Gotta take a lot of notes as you're going, because otherwise I'll forget what you say. But, uh, mowing you? Yeah. And I guess that deer? Do do you see in your clients desire to connect with other people who have ADHD or to find a social support that way?Jan Willer, PhD 45:39You know, I think it's interesting that you're bringing that up, because I have certainly have noticed that a lot of my clients who have ADHD do tend to have friends who have ADHD, and sometimes even spouses, but the spouses can go either way, sometimes they have ADHD, and sometimes they want to be with somebody who's very organized. Like, they want to be with a really neurotypical person, balance them out. Yeah, exactly. But they do tend to really, you know, kind of enjoy that bouncing around. Yeah, seasonally, that happens when two people have ADHD. It's an interesting phenomena. Hannah Choi 46:18It's fun! We're fun people. Jan Willer, PhD 46:20Yeah, I mean, people who have ADHD tend to be full of life. And, you know, it's really and spontaneous and have lots of interesting things to say. And you know, that's cool. That's a good friend.Hannah Choi 46:35Something that, that I've been thinking about lately is the anxiety that comes along with ADHD and how, for me, realizing how connected they were was so freeing, and it's truly incredible how much less anxiety I am experiencing now. And I remember you said that you said to, you often encourage people to explore the ADHD diagnosis when they have it, where they have anxiety. And at night, I really can speak to that it made a really big difference for me. And then I think back to my childhood. And I remember I went to the summer camp, and they gave away awards at the end of the summer. And the award that I got, which I was 12. And now looking back on it, oh god that my poor 12 year old self, the worst they gave me was the "What If Award". And because I always used to say, well, what if what if this happens? What if that happens? I was really anxious. And it nobody said like, "Wait a second? Why is she wondering all the time What if?" And now I realize it's because my brain was thinking of all the things, all the things. And I just so when I realized that I was in the car today while I was driving. Oh, so I went back to my 12 year old self. It's okay. We get it now. Yeah, so that's been that's been like a really nice experience that I've had is being able to go back and just kind of forgive myself a little bit.Jan Willer, PhD 48:09Yeah, yeah, it really it does take a while to kind of turn over all the things that happened that were related to the ADHD, and put it all in context, isn't it?Hannah Choi 48:20Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's and you know, so it's been, like, nine months since we talked, so nine months of me, like really exploring that. And, and it's, I think, out of the whole experience, I think that is probably the most impactful is being able to explain a lot of things and, and really forgive myself, because I held on for so long, that, that I was just bad at all those things, and, and internalized so much of it, and I and I, but I was really good at masking it even to myself. And so it's just been, like incredible, but for sure need a therapist. Like, I don't think I would have been able to do that all on my own. I wouldn't, I would have been more afraid to go there without the support of a therapist, you know, like, walking me through it is it's been. It's been hard. And it's been amazing. Yeah.Jan Willer, PhD 49:27Yeah. So there's there's a lot of advantages that can come to having a therapist who is knowledgeable about ADHD, right? Yeah. Because they can help you sort through those issues from the past and get their perspective on it. Right. And they can provide you with a lot of information about ADHD and you know how the brain works when a person has ADHD. Yeah, what their common struggles are or what their differences are. So, so that's, that's really useful too, and it can help you work on and coping skills if there's things that you're struggling with. Hannah Choi 50:03Yeah. So you know what, before we go, what kind of it? Like, what's your top advice that you give to people? Right? You know, when they, when they come to this realization like, oh, okay, this is why?Jan Willer, PhD 50:19Well, I think it's the case with any, you know, cognitive or emotional difference that a person may have in that get, you know, knowledge is power, right? Yeah. And so the more a person understands themselves, the more they understand how their brain is working, the more they've understand how ADHD has affected their life, and affected how they feel about themselves and their emotions, you know, then that really helps them figure out how to move forward. Yeah,Hannah Choi 50:53Yeah. And that might take a while and might take a lot of hard work. Probably some tears. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again, Jan. I will be forever, eternally grateful to you for taking the time and for being so supportive. And I really hope that anyone listening can can find a Jan Willer in their lives, to you know, to kind of walk them through this whole, like, exploration of possible ADHD diagnosis. Hannah Choi 51:33I just like I like you heard me just say, I am just so grateful for this diagnosis now at age 46. And I'm sad that there was not as much education and understanding about ADHD back when I was a kid so that me and other people like me, could have gotten help earlier. And mom, I know you're listening, I just want you to know that I placed absolutely no blame at all on you, or dad, or on my teachers or the other adults in my childhood, there just wasn't the knowledge, the awareness and understanding that we have today. And I know there are people out there many of them women like me, who were masking their symptoms with coping skills, they were not so that were not so outwardly noticeable to others and didn't have any catastrophic consequences. But they were slowly turning them us inside into people who struggle to find confidence, and believe in themselves. So I am really hopeful for myself and everyone else out there who can relate to any of what I've shared today. If you can relate, please reach out, ask for help ask the questions. It's scary, but you got to do it. I made an appointment, like I said before with a neurologist to learn about my migraines and the connection with ADHD. And I also made an appointment with a more affordable psychiatrist who does full neuro psych reports for less than the typical cost. I'm very excited about that. And you know, as Jan said, knowledge is power. So I'm taking my brain health into my own hands and learning as much as I can. And I really hope that you're able to do that for yourself as well. Hannah Choi 53:11If you've been listening for a while, you'll know that one of our main goals is to hopefully help someone somewhere who is struggling with an aspect or maybe many aspects of their executive function skills. Well, this episode is here to maybe help that person find freedom from their frustrating past. By finding the courage to get tested, ask questions, learn about medication and strategies that truly can make a huge difference. It was hard and kind of weird to put myself out there for this episode. My colleagues and Jan both asked me if I was okay with being in that vulnerable position. But I thought about all the people who might be able to relate who might not know where to start and who might find some inspiration and maybe some bravery in my story. I also figured if Katie Couric, Jimmy Kimmel, and Ryan Reynolds can all share their colonoscopy experiences on TV, I can share my ADHD story with you on Focus Forward. Hannah Choi 54:10And that is our show for today. If you know anyone who might want to hear all this or maybe needs to hear all this, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love love, love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts and if you listen on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, please give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening everyone.

Joy Letter - With a Little Help From My Friends

New Song Church OKC

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2023 52:03

Philippians 1:12What has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, 18 And because of this I rejoice.Philippians 1:21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.As the body is nourished by food, so the soul is nourished by people.John OrtbergYou Need FriendsWhen God saves us, He saves us into His family.Proverbs 18:1Loners who care only for themselves spit on the common good.Philippians 1:27Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel Paul says, you gotta live this life side by side with other people.Friendships are central to living a life worthy of the gospel.Philippians 2:19I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you. 20 I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare. 21 For everyone looks out for their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. 23 I hope, therefore, to send him as soon as I see how things go with me. 24 And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon. 25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow. 28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29 So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30 because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.#1 God Uses Friendships To Help Us Experience and Extend His GraceGrace is the unmerited, undeserved, unearned kindness and favor of God.Philippians 2:5In your lives you must think and act like Christ Jesus.The win for us in relationships, in friendships, is being an image of the grace of God to someone else.We are to image the unmerited, undeserved, unearned kindness and favor of God to the world.Philippians 2:20I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare.Genuine - gnēsiōs = SincerelyTo regard their interests with a sincere tenderness and concern.Philippians 2:26For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill.Timothy and Epaphroditus are living lives that image the life of Jesus well.Philippians 2:5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,To save us, Jesus served us.Matthew 23:11The greatest among you will be your servant.Philippians 2:25I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs.Very often, when we're in need and asking God for a gift to help us, the gift God sends is in the form of a friend.Philippians 2:28Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety.Philippians 2:29So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy,Are you receiving the grace gifts of the friends God has placed around you?"As a rough rule of thumb, if you belong to no groups but you decide to join one, you cut your risk of dying over the next year in half."You Need FriendsGod is still accepting friend requests; how about you? Galatians 6:7You reap what you sow.If you want to have great friends, be a great friend.#2 God Uses Friendships To Spread The GospelPhilippians 2:22But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.Philippians 2:25my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier,Gospel is = “The Kingdom is here now”The mission of the Gospel is to bring people into the Kingdom now.Friendships are central to living a life worthy of the gospel.Philippians 1:27Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ… striving side by side for the faith of the gospelPhilippians 2:30He almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.``

Ep 28: The Gift of ADHD: Expert Tips to Unlock the Power of an ADHD Brain

australian fitness out now 25i

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 19, 2023 66:12

Last week, I had a blast hosting another free webinar for Beyond BookSmart that was all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie, an Executive Function coach and ADHD expert, joined me to explore how the ADHD brain works and what the roles of medication, therapy and executive function coaching are within the larger umbrella of ADHD treatment. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches' favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with, and featured psychiatrist, Dr. Theresa, to fill in some of our expertise gaps around ADHD medication. So, today, I'm bringing you the audio from the webinar AND a bonus Q&A section that Amy & I did after the webinar (there were just too many great questions we didn't get to!) If you joined us live and just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to around 47 minutes to listen to just that. And if you didn't get a chance to watch the webinar at all, be sure to look for the link in the show notes below!For those who have been blessed with careful ears, you'll hear me share in this episode that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. Because of my recent diagnosis, this episode is particularly close to my heart. I hope you enjoy listening half as much as I enjoyed being a part of these important conversations and if you do, be sure to give us a 5-star review on the platform you're listening on! And last but certainly not least, thank you for being a part of the Focus Forward community. Here are the show notes for this week: Watch our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosishttps://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/u3pueh40rsSlides from our webinar, How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosishttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/hubfs/How%20to%20Thrive%20with%20ADHD%20After%20a%20Diagnosis%202023.pdfWatch our webinar about Motivation:https://thinkingoutsidetheclassroom.wistia.com/medias/o3it96iuotBeyond BookSmart ADHD Success Kithttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/adhd-success-kit-2022Focus Forward Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=by637tasziFocus Forward Ep 18: Flipping the ADHD Narrative: How "The Disruptors" is Changing the Way We Talk About ADHD (ft. Nancy Armstrong)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast?wchannelid=y1lzulxlcs&wmediaid=wwh3rsdpbw2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JnDhp83gATranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Oh, you guys, thank you so much for taking the time to go to Apple podcasts and rate Focus Forward. For me, it really means a lot to see that little number next, all those stars go up. I really appreciate it. If you want to help us out, and you haven't already rated it, you can scroll to the bottom of the Focus Forward section of your Apple podcasts app and give us a rating and hopefully it's five stars. If it's not, email me, tell me why. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate you all so much.Hannah Choi 00:47 I had a blast hosting another beyond booksmart free webinar last week, this time, all about ADHD. Amy McDuffie joined me again as one of our ADHD experts. And we covered what ADHD is and what it is not how the ADHD brain and medication work, the roles therapy and executive function coaching play for people with ADHD, and the benefits of pairing those interventions for maximum success. We also took some time to cover some of our coaches favorite tools and strategies that can support the areas of executive functioning that people with ADHD often struggle with. And this webinar was an updated version of the ADHD fundamentals webinar that we held in June of 2022. So today, I'm bringing you the audio from this year's ADHD webinar. If you listen to Focus Forward regularly, you may notice that much of the content is similar to the ADHD focused episode we did in October of 2022. In fact, I even used some of the audio from last year's webinar in that episode, I really hope you listen anyway. And don't report me for plagiarizing myself, although you'd have to report me to me, and I'm cool with it. So it's all just such good stuff. And I want to share it with as many people as possible in as many formats as we can. So some people like to watch video to learn, and others like to listen and still others prefer to read. And as a coach, I really recognize the value of honoring these differences in people. And so this is me making that happen. If you'd like some visuals while you listen, the slides from the webinar are linked in the show notes. Also, today, you'll hear me share that I was recently diagnosed with ADHD myself. And so this webinar and that ADHD episode are particularly close to my heart. In fact, doing all the research for the ADHD episode last year confirmed what I had been wondering for quite a while. Hannah Choi 03:02At the end of our webinar presentation last week, Amy and I answered some of the Q&A topics that our attendees asked both with their registrations and during the live webinar. And people asked such good questions. So good. And if you listened to the Focus Forward episode of the audio from our Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction webinar, all about unlocking motivation, you may remember that Amy, Vin and I sat down the next day to answer more Q&A topics. Because there were some great questions we couldn't get to before this latest webinar ended, Amy and I decided to meet up again, just like last time, so stay tuned at the end of the webinar audio for the bonus content. If you joined us live and you just want to hear the bonus content, you can skip ahead to about 46 minutes to listen to just that. And if you missed the webinar, and you want to watch it, the link to it and our other webinar presentations is in the show notes. Okay, now on to the show. Hannah Choi 04:07All right. So hello, and welcome to our webinar "How to Thrive with ADHD After Diagnosis". We are so thrilled to welcome people joining us from across the US and around the world as we saw, and we have closed captions available. So if you'd like to use those, be sure to turn them on. My name is Hannah Choi, and I'll be your moderator for tonight's event. I use she her pronouns and I'm the host of our podcast, all about executive functioning called Focus Forward. So if you listen there, you might know you get to see a face to the name or Yeah, face to my voice. I have been an executive function coach at beyond booksmart since 2017, and I have coached dozens of students from elementary age all the way up to college and I also work with adults and I'm a mom of two kids who are 11 and 14 and I live in Connecticut. I am also joined by Amy McDuffie who you may recognize from our laziness versus executive dysfunction webinar around motivation. Amy, would you please introduce yourself and share your background and your roles with Beyond BookSmart?Amy McDuffie 05:14Yes, thank you, Hannah. Hi, everyone, I have been a coach and executive function consultant with beyond booksmart. For over two years. I use she her pronouns, and my background is in special education, specifically in behavior and learning disabilities, with students from elementary through high school. And I'm also a former behavior specialist. These opportunities allowed me to really experience both the gifts and challenges of students diagnosed with ADHD. Much of my work in the school setting focused on providing interventions for students, and coaching teachers on how to best provide support. I'm also the parent of two pretty awesome teens, ages 14 and 17. And I'm so glad you all are here. And I'm really excited to be with you.Hannah Choi 05:59Thank you, Amy. And for those of you who are joining us who may not be familiar with Beyond BookSmart, we have been providing one on one executive function coaching with students and adults since 2006. Even before that term executive function became widely known. And you may already know this term since ADHD and executive function skill challenges are so closely bound. But if it's new to you, you're not alone, I promise. Executive function skills are mental skills that we use to navigate our lives and get through our days. They include attention, memory, time management, planning, prioritizing, and emotional regulation. And many of our clients have an ADHD diagnosis, which gives us extensive experience in supporting individuals with ADHD or similar challenges. And today's webinar is an updated version of the ADHD fundamentals webinar that we ran last summer, which was hosted by Jackie Hebert. And that webinar was one of our highest attended webinars. So we know that this topic is really important to people. And I am personally thrilled to be hosting this time, because the topic is really close to my heart, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. And I've been doing a lot of the same navigation of new waters that many of you likely are. And so I'm really happy to be here with you today. So you may be joining us today because you or your child was recently diagnosed with ADHD, but maybe you just suspect a diagnosis. And if this is the case, we really encourage you to listen to the webinar, and then reach out to your pediatrician or your primary care provider for guidance on what to do next.Amy McDuffie 07:37Thanks, Hannah. It can be really overwhelming when you learn or suspect that you or a loved one has ADHD. There's just so much information out there. And it can be hard to sort through it all. But we find it can also be a huge relief to get a diagnosis because it gives you context for your or your child's struggles, and also a defined place to look for help and support, which you are doing right now. We're here tonight to provide that for you. So here's what's here's what to expect in our webinar. First, we'll briefly define ADHD and explore some common assumptions about it. Then we'll move to learning about medication options. Then we'll touch upon behavioral approaches to treating ADHD, and share some of our coaches favorite tools and strategies that can make life a little easier. We'll share some resources and answer some of your questions before we finish up. So please use the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen throughout the webinar.Hannah Choi 08:38Yes, thanks. And because we're not medical doctors - Sorry mom and dad! We will be sharing a recording of some of the webinar from last summer. We had Dr. Theresa Cerulli join us to discuss the option of medication to treat ADHD. Dr. Cerulli is a graduate of Tufts University, University of Massachusetts Medical School, Harvard Longwood residency program in adult psychiatry, and Harvard fellowships in Medical Psychiatry and neuro psychiatry, and she is a board certified physician in psychiatry and is on the faculty at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, and for the neuroscience Education Institute, so we'll hear from her later.Amy McDuffie 09:21All right, so you might be wondering just how common is ADHD? You're in very good company. Research from the National Institute of Mental Health, the NIMH reveals 11% of children and 4.4% of adults meet the criteria for ADHD, with males diagnosed at a higher rate than females. Now those statistics are from 2011. So we hope that NIMH updates their data soon. But with that degree of prevalence, you can see why it's essential to educate caregivers, children and adults with ADHD and help them identify supports to manage their symptoms.Hannah Choi 09:59Yes, and thanks to the efforts of high profile and successful people with ADHD, there's less stigma associated with a diagnosis. In fact, you'll meet many people who consider their ADHD a superpower of sorts. And it provides great energy and creativity when channeled effectively. There are so many great examples of people with this superpower from Simone Biles that you can see on the screen now, and astronaut Scott Kelly and so many others, and ADHD does not have to be a hindrance to success. All right, but all of that inspirational wisdom still leaves us with an important question. Hannah Choi 10:35What is ADHD? And what is it not? All right, so ADHD is a brain based condition that impacts daily life. And it often can affect motivation. And it often runs in families. And it has three subtypes, there's hyperactive impulsive, and then there's inattentive, which you may know as add the ADD is what it was formerly called. And now it is called ADHD inattentive type. And then there is the third type, which is the combined type that has characteristics from both. And ADHD directly impacts executive functioning. And ADHD is not a result of poor parenting. It is not a choice. And it is not something that children typically outgrow. And it is not a learning disability. And it's also doesn't have to be an immovable barrier to success and happiness. And I want to touch upon just a few of these points. Not everyone outgrows it. But with intervention, you can manage symptoms, and sometimes the symptoms just change over your life, because the demands on us change. So the symptoms can look different as we age. And ADHD is not considered a learning disability because it's a medical condition that, as we learned, impacts your it will what you'll learn as we will learn it impacts neurotransmitters in the brain. And research indicates that 30 to 50% of children with ADHD also have a specific learning disability, and that the two conditions can interact, which can make learning extremely challenging.12:10Yes, let's talk more about that for a minute. It's not a learning disability, but a medical condition. And understanding these dynamics can really help us empathize with individuals with ADHD. So if you attended our Laziness vs. Executive Dysfunction webinar, this may sound familiar. So ADHD is characterized by lower levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine, affecting how the ADHD brain perceives both reward and pleasure. And this leads to a lack of enthusiasm per task, and a tendency to prioritize short term rewards over long term rewards. Another significant difference in the ADHD brain involves the default mode network, which activates during daydreaming or when we're not focused on a task. In ADHD, this network is more often activated constantly diverting attention toward unrelated thoughts. So that explains why staying focused on tedious or repetitive tasks can be such a chore with ADHD. It really isn't a matter of well, it's a matter of neurology. And that's why brain based interventions can be really effective for individuals with ADHD.Hannah Choi 13:26Yes, so true. Thank you, Amy. Alright, so now that we know what happens inside the ADHD brain, let's take a look at how ADHD can show up in behavior. Okay, so here is the top of an iceberg. And this is the part that everyone sees when a person has executive function challenges due to ADHD. The people around them see the top they see the behaviors that are problematic. They're forgetful, they seem lazy and scattered. They're sloppy or moody, they behave impulsively, and sometimes can even be rude to others. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Now remember that icebergs are actually mostly hidden under the water. And it's the same with executive function challenges. When we look deeper, we can see the specific skill deficits that people with ADHD can often have and that are causing the challenging behaviors that impact those around us. And so a person may have a poor sense of time or difficulty planning ahead, when that can make them seem scattered, and they may have trouble regulating emotion and seem irritable or moody. When they have no strategies to self monitor, a person can look impulsive, and students or adults who are too overwhelmed to get started can look lazy. And when they have no systems to track to sorry, excuse me to track their belongings or to maintain their focus, they can be forgetful. And when a person has trouble thinking flexibly, it can affect their problem solving and perspective taking and that can often come off as rude or demanding behavior. Beer. And as I mentioned in the beginning, ADHD can impact one or more of these skill areas. So you can see how it can directly impact our ability to manage everyday demands.Amy McDuffie 15:13Thank you, Hannah. So we'll shift now to the role of medication for ADHD. Many of you wrote in with questions about that, and we recognize that medication is a personal choice. And for those who are considering it, we wanted to provide some support there. So let's hear from Dr. Cerulli to learn how that works.Theresa Cerulli, MD 15:33So medications, I will say, it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would have I would think about it. And mostly because of the data. Looking at this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention, interventions, versus combined in treating ADHD, and the sitter. So the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, the medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies, meaning I call that "from the outside in" using strategies you learn in your environment, with some coaching, hopefully, and therapy, from the outside in, those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain. So initially, at least considering the combination of therapies, internal and external, so to speak, are, are considered them should should at least be considered. That's how we think about it. And here's our ADHD brain here on on the slide with the power switch in the frontal lobe. Think of the brain as a large electrical circuit, it really is that we're sending electrical signals when one part of the brain is talking to another part of the brain. So in the ADHD brain, all the circuitry is there, there's nothing that's we're not missing something. There's not, you know, holes in the section of the brain that's involved in attention concentration. But it just, it turns out that there's a higher level of stimulation is needed to literally turn the circuit on. And the reason that this switch here is in the frontal lobe this on switch is because that's the area that's mostly involved in ADHD, from what we can tell that area is under active or hypo active. If you look at functional scans, have somebody do a concentration task that has ADHD, and you scan them in a functional scanner, looking at what happens. And it turns out that that area of the brain that's used with concentration and attention is under active, it's too quiet. It takes something stimulating to flip the switch, which is where the medications come in. I get this question all the time. Why in the world would you talk about stimulant medications? For somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? It's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person. You want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize and plan. You're trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively. So choosing the right medication is the question we get all the time. It should be in partnership certainly with somebody who really knows ADHD well, and the primary care physicians are especially if you're working with kids, the pediatricians are quite familiar but all with adults with ADHD your internist may or may not be they because the stimulant medications, which are many of the options we have available, are controlled substances. A lot of the internists and general practitioners for adults are their little hesitant to be involved in in prescribing so we usually refer you to a psychiatrist and neurologist, somebody who does this on a more routine basis. For ADHD, there are stimulants. There are also non stimulants. The non stimulants have some similar effects in the brain. Not quite as strong, I would say Say is the stimulants and we'll go through them quickly through the pros and cons. Stimulants have been around for years and years the gosh, Ritalin 1950s There was some amphetamines available even before that in the 1930s not yet used for ADHD but at least existed so stimulants have been around for more years than I have been concert they've been well studied. They're relatively affordable because there's many options and so usually there's a lot of generic brands that are available which insurance is more willing to pay for so that has that advantage. Cons is that they are controlled substances. They do have the potential for addiction. If we have clients that working with when there's any concern around that we are really careful usually move that would be someone I'd move to a non stimulant is first line. Some examples of stimulants you may have heard of certainly, Ritalin, Concerta, and meditate those fall into the methylphenidate category of stimulants. There's a second stimulant category and that's amphetamines. Some of the names you may have heard of there are Adderall, Vyvanse and dexedrine. So stimulants, if that's the umbrella term, under stimulants, you have two subcategories methylphenidate and amphetamines. And then there's about 29 or so total stimulants if I wanted to make a list and but most of those 29 fall into either methylphenidate or amphetamines in some form, some are long acting, some are short acting. An example in the methylphenidate Ritalin itself and its original form that tablet lasted only about three and a half, four hours. And that was it, which is why it was so hard to get tend to go to the nurse's office at lunchtime to take their second dose of Ritalin than they needed a third dose after school and potentially another for homework. It was really kind of rough that up down on off feeling. Concerta is a long acting rhythm and it's still Ritalin. It's just a 10 to 12 hour version that you can take once in the morning and have it last throughout the day. So there's many methylphenidates that are short acting, many that are long acting, some that are in between. Same thing with amphetamines, the non stimulants, they aren't controlled substances, there is no potential for addiction. That is one of the beauties of the non stimulants. They haven't been out as long so we don't have as many available. In fact, there are only for adults, we only have two non stimulants FDA approved for treating ADHD. In children, we had three new we now have four because Quelbree came became available last year as another non stimulant available for actually kids and adults. So we don't have the long list of that we do with stimulants where there's I said 29 I think it's actually even a little more than that now. Preparations, non stimulants we're more limited choice, but they do have their advantages that it's not that they don't have side effects, stimulants and non stimulants both can have side effects. The side effects with the non stimulants are just a bit different. I already said that not addictive, there's no withdrawal risk. They're not quite as strong. If you looked at the robustness of response, you're going to get more effect over and above not on a stimulant over and above not taking a stimulant compared with what we call the robustness of of effect of a non stimulant. But it really should be tailored to the individual and discussed with your individual provider. Hopefully someone that really is specialized in ADHD.Amy McDuffie 23:41All right, that was great information. So medication provides a place to start for many with ADHD. But as some educational professionals say, "Pills don't teach skills". I know it might sound silly, but it's worth noting for the reminder it provides medication as we just learned can set the stage to make learning and applying new skills easier by turning on the brain's ability to focus, which allows us allows us to take better advantage of other beneficial supports. Also, because some people choose not to take ADHD medication, it's important to explore these other supports. So the other half of the equation is how you go about learning new habits and behaviors. Let's find out more about two options therapy and coaching. Both of which can teach you different ways of thinking about your ADHD, and tools and strategies to support the areas that you or your child find challenging. So therapy and executive function coaching work together to address the negative behaviors and habits that have been learned over time, but in different ways. Therapists help transform negative patterns of thinking influenced by living with ADHD and constructively rebuilt the way people feel about themselves. Their therapy can be a really helpful piece of overall treatment, particularly if there's self esteem issues, or coexisting mental health conditions like depression or anxiety that are part of the big picture. The longer that ADHD is untreated, it's more likely that there are deep seated beliefs about self worth, and potential that can be holding a person back. It's significant to note that a child with ADHD could receive 20,000 corrective or negative comments by the time they are age 10. Now that's fertile ground for feelings of shame to take root. We're not therapists, so we can't elaborate on the specific benefits and approaches to therapy. But we really encourage you to find a therapist who has experience supporting people with ADHD.Hannah Choi 25:56Yes, I know that my therapist has been invaluable to me as I figured out how to manage my ADHD and all the emotions that come with that diagnosis. So managing those emotions, and those negative narratives that come along with it are just one part of the puzzle. Because ADHD impacts executive functioning so directly, working specifically on developing good habits to level the playing field is really, really helpful. And that's where executive function coaching can help. So what is executive function coaching, it supports clients to explore their strengths and their challenges, and then refine their tools to manage their daily life challenges. And all of this helps foster healthy habits. And having a coach is beneficial for everyone, actually, regardless of your ADHD diagnosis, because you don't have to have ADHD, to have stroke struggles with executive function. And life can just be tough enough for everybody. So learning some new strategies is always helpful. And as we said before, Amy and I are both coaches, and we have been for some time now. And I just love how we get to teach adults and students, all those executive function skills like organizing, planning, prioritizing, managing time, and maintaining focus, learning to assess yourself and work more efficiently. But it's really so much more than just building on those specific skills and habits. Right, Amy?Amy McDuffie 27:26Absolutely. Yes, I definitely agree with you there, Hannah. I also really just value the strong trust and rapport that I get to build with clients. And I love those moments when I get to see a shift in confidence and autonomy. You know, really our goal is our goal as coaches is for clients to develop the skills they need in order to become successful and independent.Hannah Choi 27:51Yes, there's just nothing like it when we see our clients finding that. And also, everybody comes from a different place and has different needs and different challenges. And so what what I really like about that one on one aspect of coaching is that it can really help clients focus on their specific goals and their needs. So Amy, what do you see in your clients with ADHD when they first start coaching?Amy McDuffie 28:19Yeah, that's a really, really important question, because clients often come to us when they're feeling pretty frustrated, which is completely understandable. And oftentimes, individuals with ADHD experience much more frustration and failure than they do success, which ends up having a negative impact on their self perception, and also increases stress. So this can become a real barrier leading to the self-reinforcing negative cycle, and also results in less efficient processing. Because our brains just don't function well under stress. I know I've seen clients come into coaching with the assumption that they just can't improve their grades or stay on top of their work. Because this combination of past failure and unhelpful habits have really diminished their confidence in it for taking any steps towards making a change. And that's why it's really important to help clients with ADHD recognize their strengths. And as coaches, we can build upon those strengths and draw parallels between the skills needed to generalize that success to other areas. We also initially work on finding small wins and help clients recognize the benefits from these changes, which then leads to greater self confidence. And this increase in self-confidence and feelings of success then became motivating to build upon this habits and ends up creating a positive cycle of success that can really snowball into some major changes.Hannah Choi 29:51Yes, it's so it's just so great to see that happening. So let's talk about some of the specific tools and strategies that we coaches use to teach people with have ADHD, or just executive function challenges to make the life a little easier. So a common common common executive function skill challenge area for people with ADHD. And actually, I would say for most everybody is planning, prioritizing and time management. And so let's start with that time management. One helpful strategy is using timers and then blocking out your time, we really liked the Pomodoro Technique, which you may have heard of before, and it involves setting a timer for a focused work period, then that's usually about 25 minutes, the brain doesn't really like to work longer, in general. So 25 minutes is often a good amount of time. And then after the timer goes off, you take a five minute break, make sure you set a time and mercy or five minute break doesn't turn into an hour, and then restart that cycle. And then if you're finding it difficult to get back to work, after the break, you can try stretching or getting up and walking around having a snack or a drink, or just maybe switching to a different activity temporarily. And when prioritizing what you're going to work on in those blocks of time, some people like to decide ahead of time, what they're going to work on, based on the difficulty of the task or its urgency, and then others like to start with what they're feeling most motivated to work on. And it really just depends on what works best for you. And as all tools. And what we really say to all of our clients all the time is we really, really want you to try things out, and then see what works best for you. And as a person with ADHD, the way that you do things might look different from the way everyone else does. And I'm here to tell you that that is okay. And a tool that we like to use for planning is called peak performance. And what peak performance does it helps you to learn to pay attention to when you're most productive. And so this can give you some insights on how to schedule your days. So if you tend to get tired in the afternoons, I think that's pretty standard for most people, scheduling a focus to work session in the afternoon is not maybe a realistic expectation. And if you have a hard time winding down after school, jumping right into homework when you first get home might be stressful and unproductive.Amy McDuffie 32:17Yes, thank you so much, Hannah. I totally agree it's so important to recognize those peak performance times during the day. And I think it's also really helpful to determine why the task is important to you, you know, to remind yourself of the potential benefits, which may not always seem immediate, but could have some greater benefit down the road. And this can really help boost motivation for taking the steps to get started. Some other strategies that can help with focus include things like taking notes, using checklists, asking questions, and just writing information down in your own words. It's really about creating opportunities for engagement and active participation whenever possible. And some people find it's also helpful to drink water or to gum, also to use alternate seating or even stand and to create opportunities for movement. And this is definitely something to consider in the school environment where students do a lot of sitting.Hannah Choi 33:21I also wanted to touch on some strategies that can help remember help with remembering to take your medication. And this could be ADHD medication or any other prescriptions you might have. Memory can be a big challenge area for people with ADHD. I know it is my kryptonite. We suggest setting up automatic refills for prescriptions that allow this and adding a reminder in your calendar for the following month when you receive this month supply. And you can create a recurring alarm as a reminder to take your meds or and then also like keep them in something like near something that you use daily, maybe by your planner or bedside table or the kitchen counter. And ordering a three month supply when possible. You can't do this without medications can reduce how often you need to reorder, which is really helpful. And if the current Adderall shortage affects you, being proactive is crucial. Your pharmacist may need to collaborate with other pharmacies to source refills, and finding a cooperative pharmacy will make things much easier. Let's see. All right. I'm gonna go with this one. Let's see. How do you know when a teen is being lazy versus when it's ADHD? This sounds very familiar to me. Amy. Does it sound like that to you?Amy McDuffie 34:48It's that's a that's a tough question to be honest. Yeah, I'm happy to start out on that one. Yeah. I you know, coming from you know, a behavioral behavioral person Active, excuse me, I really like to find out, you know, where the problem issue is, and also, you know, help determine why that's happening. So I feel like, that's a really important step here. Like, you know, how, how is this child being impacted? And, you know, why is that occurring? Because I do think that, you know, behavior serves a function. And I think we need to determine that before we can identify, you know, if it's ADHD related, which it very well could be, or if it's more of a behavioral issue. So, I don't know, Hannah, what are your thoughts on that?Hannah Choi 35:39Yeah, well, it reminds me of the last webinar that we, that we both hosted back in May, where it was actually the topic of the webinar. And, and, and we, we do like what like you just said, it's, it's, I mean, I would say it's not laziness. It can feel that way. As the parent, I can very much feel that way. It can also feel that way, as a person with ADHD, sometimes I find myself, I like catch myself thinking, I'm being really lazy. And then I realized, like, wait a second, I'm just not, I'm not figuring out why. And I'm not figuring out a tool to help me get past that what feels like a laziness barrier. I do know that a lot of screen time can deplete what little dopamine people with ADHD already have. So extended amounts of screen time can can make it feel like everything else is really boring, which can impact your motivation. So you know, if there's, you might want to have a discussion with yourself, if you're the person who's experiencing that, or with your partner or with your child, if, if there might be some dopamine depletion going on from a lot of screentime, which is totally normal. Everybody, does it. I'm not at all saying is there's anything wrong with it, but it can be, there can be a connection of it there. So yeah, all right. Um, let's see. Oh, here we go. Can you give an example of how ADHD can be a superpower? I would like to take that one.Amy McDuffie 37:20Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 37:24So that Default Mode Network section that you were talking you and Dr. Cerulli were talking about earlier is, is it's both a challenge and also a superpower. So even while I'm talking right now, I have like a lot of ideas going on in my head. And what I'm doing is like making all these connections between topics. And I feel like I'm really good at synthesizing information. Because I have this deep, I even I'm focusing on talking right now to all of you, I have this default mode network that is like susceptible, making all these connections out here. And I feel like it gives me some really creative ideas. And I also feel like it really helps me as a podcast host. Because I feel like it helps me come up with some really cool questions and make connections that a more linear thinker might not make. It does require extra effort to stay focused and to kind of ignore that default mode network when I when I really need to focus. So it's a it's a challenge, and it's also a superpower. And also, there's just a lot of energy behind the things that people with ADHD are really interested in. So I think that that is, you know, some of the most successful CEOs in the world have ADHD. What about you, Amy, what do you see in your clients are the students that you used to work with?Amy McDuffie 38:46I really, I really value the creativity that I feel like many individuals with ADHD have. And you mentioned, Hannah, you know, the energy and I think that's, that's such an important part that to frame it as a positive. And, you know, that kind of goes, you know, really into, like, the dialogue about ADHD that we really should reframe it as, you know, as a positive and look at, you know, you know, the gifts that ADHD can bring for individuals.Hannah Choi 39:19Yep, I agree. Okay, here is a great question. I'm so glad somebody asked this. How does mood play into executive functioning with my daughter who has to attempt inattentive ADHD getting into the frame of mind to do anything is a big challenge. Yeah, so just to get a little brain nerdy. So our executive function skills reside in our frontal lobe or prefrontal cortex which is right behind our foreheads. And we can only really access them when we are at rest and digest when our body when we're not stressed out. We're not upset we're not anxious. And so if you, if you already are struggling with executive functioning, which a person with ADHD does, and also one of those really big, important executive function skills in there that do that does really challenge people with ADHD is emotional regulation. So regulating your emotions so that you can stay up in the front part of your brain, the top part of your brain where your executive function skills are is a huge part of success. Right? Like, if you already have trouble accessing them, and your emotions are not being managed, then it makes it even harder to get started even harder to get over the anxiety that you might have or the frustration you might feel or the fear you might have for what you're going to work on.Amy McDuffie 40:45Yeah, absolutely. Hannah, I mean, it really that emotional regulation or self regulation piece, it really is the starting point, you know, of things to focus on and then to work on building strategies from there.Hannah Choi 41:00Yeah, yep. Somebody asked about screen time. We could literally talk about screen time all night.Amy McDuffie 41:07Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's, that's such an important question. Because, you know, it's one that we all we all live. Yeah. So I'm, if that's okay, Hannah, I'm happy to share. Okay. So this is something that I've, you know, that I've actually been working on with a client, and, you know, having two teenagers myself, it's something that we address in our own home as well. And I feel like, you know, for me, the approach that I like to take is to really look at, you know, how we spend our time, so, you know, how your kids are spending their time. And, you know, really what they're missing, you know, are there things that they have enjoyed doing in their lives, their hobbies, other things that might be sacrificed, if they're spending tons of time on the screen. So I like to, you know, kind of approach things from that angle in terms of, you know, what else could you be doing with your time, and then, I love the approach in my own house of, you know, taking the, the adolescent need for independence and autonomy. And, you know, really talking with my kiddos about, you know, are you in control of your phone? Or are you allowing your phone to control you and, you know, taking that approach and teaching them about, you know, the intention of all of the the apps and, you know, wanting to, you know, maintain our attention and take our time away. So, those are just some approaches that I use, you know, in my own house and with with my client as well. How about you, Hannah?Hannah Choi 42:44Yeah, I really love that last point that you made, because learning to, to reflect on our own experience, and then take what we've learned, and then apply it to our life to make positive change is is such an important skill to learn as a teen because you're soon going to be an adult and not have your parents around to help you monitor all that. So learning that self awareness, and just self control is so great. So I love that. I love that you mentioned that. Yeah, I got to interview Dr. Clifford Sussman, who is a psychiatrist who specializes in screen addiction. And he had some really, really great tips for, like you said, working with your, with your child, your teen to, to, you know, work together to come up with a potential solution for you know, setting reasonable limits, while also giving them that autonomy and independence that they do crave. And they do need because they need to develop that skill for success in life outside of, you know, our safe and cozy homes. And then he also talked a lot about See, here's where my memory is... so anyway, just listen to the episode!Amy McDuffie 44:06That is a great episode, Hannah. That's one of my favorites.Hannah Choi 44:12We are live folks, we are live. Here's one. How can you tell if it is anxiety or ADHD? Oh, whoever wrote that? I feel Yeah, I feel you. What do you see in your clients? Amy?Amy McDuffie 44:28Oh, wow. I honestly he and I often see both of those in conjunction and, you know, the symptoms of anxiety and ADHD. There's definitely some overlap there. And you know, we talked about the you know, the cycle of failure and I what I have seen is when clients expect have that experience of past failure, it causes more anxiety and that anxiety you know, leads to avoidance with Whether it's for, you know, completing assignments or the thing they have to do, and it just, it does create that ongoing cycle. So it's, it's hard for me to separate the two, honestly, when I think about the work that I do with my clients, because I do see it often together. How about you?Hannah Choi 45:18Yep. Yep, I agree. I mean, I agree personally, that is, has been my experience. And I also see it in my clients as well. I know, for me, personally, I have a lot of anxiety around forgetting things, because memory is my most challenged area. So I am, I am often anxious that I am, you know, forgetting an important appointment or forgetting to do something that I told someone I would do. And so I have to use a lot of strategies to support myself there and I don't succeed every time. I have recently double booked myself. And so you know, it happens. But I encourage you to explore both. And to, like Amy said, it's hard to separate them, I do think it's pretty common to have both. And, and also, like, maybe we even internalized this as a child, you know, you you like all those corrective messages we heard, you know, we talked about earlier, it's, you know, when you hear that over your over the years and years, it's, it's hard not to come a little anxious about that. Hannah Choi 46:20Okay, so this is where we ended our Q&A section of the webinar. Now keep listening to hear the rest of the conversation that I recorded with Amy the next morning. And in keeping with my goal of authenticity, you can hear some sounds of daily life in the background of my recording. My mother in law, who I love dearly, did not realize I was recording. Good morning, Amy.Amy McDuffie 46:46Hey, good morning.Hannah Choi 46:48Thanks for coming back. It's not too early, but it is the morning, but I appreciate the quick turnover. Amy McDuffie 46:56Yeah, absolutely.Hannah Choi 46:58That was so fun last night. I'm so glad we got to do that again.Amy McDuffie 47:01Yeah, me too. I really, I really enjoyed that I could talk about, you know, ADHD is something I could talk about all day. So.Hannah Choi 47:10Okay, well, then I'm glad we're talking about it. So I was laughing so hard internally, because as you know, every time we were practicing, I kept almost I kept saying not almost saying I kept saying laziness versus execution webinar. Not laziness versus executive dysfunction webinars. SoAmy McDuffie 47:31yeah, that would be a different webinar, for sure. It'll be different. Yes, exactly. I mean, that would that would be a different source of motivation, for sure. SoHannah Choi 47:51All right, so yeah, so I was very proud of myself control and yours as well, because I know you were wondering if I was gonna say it?Amy McDuffie 47:59Well, and I was trying not to think about it too much, because then I didn't want to internalize it and say it myself. So I feel like we did. We did well, with that. We did. We did. We said the word.Hannah Choi 48:13 All right, let's dive into some of these questions that are just so good. I love. I just love how thoughtful everyone is. And so some of these questions were submitted during our live Q&A. And some of them were submitted when people registered for the webinar. So we've just kind of mixed them together. Okay, so here's the question when searching for a therapist, what kind of therapists should I look for?Amy McDuffie 48:39Yeah, so Hannah, I'm happy to jump in on that. One. I would recommend looking for a therapist who is experienced working with individuals with ADHD. And you know, also if you you know, feel comfortable and know someone who has an ADHD diagnosis, you know, maybe getting a recommendation from them as well. Then what do you think?Hannah Choi 49:01Yeah, for sure, you can also ask your psychiatrist or your whatever the doctor is that you're working with, for medication, if you take medication. I do know on Psychology Today, the different therapists will have profiles. And then and then on their profile, it'll say whether they work with people with ADHD, although I did reach out to one and she she told me that she doesn't work with ADHD. People with ADHD but it says so on her profile. So you might, you might and then they went to check back again. I noticed it was gone. So you might you might that might happen to you, but I encourage you to persevere. Yeah, yes. But yeah, absolutely. Someone who has experience and then you meet you might also meet with the person for the first time if you've never met with a therapist before. You may not know this that it can take a couple tries to find a therapist that you really gel with. But it's worth pursuing. It is frustrating because you have to tell your story, again to a new A person. But um, hopefully, hopefully you find the right one on the first try. Yeah. All right. Next, how do you approach a college age student who has been diagnosed with ADHD but will not accept help and wants to fix himself? And how do you help with the shame that they feel I actually entire my own personal experience real quick, I ended up when I got diagnosed, I realized, oh, there's actually nothing wrong with me, this is just how my brain is wired. So I actually felt a lot of relief, getting a diagnosis, so that I can understand the opposite experience. And it does, it can really feel like there's like something wrong with you, and that needs to be fixed. But, you know, as we talked about last night, it is it is just, you know, it's a, it's the way that your brain is, you know, it's neurotransmitters, it's not character flaws. And so I don't know if you know, approaching it from a real matter of fact, sort of factual viewpoint, that this is what's going on in your brain. And it's not necessarily like you as, as your essence, your soul, your person. What do you think?Amy McDuffie 51:16Yeah, I think that, that the education piece is so crucial. Because just having that having the understanding, knowing why that's happening, I think can really help with that piece. And in terms of, you know, addressing the shame piece, and dealing with denial, I think it's really important, you know, as, as parents, as professionals to really normalize our own struggles, and normalize the fact that everyone has challenges and struggles and things that we that we fail at. And, you know, just really, you know, trying to approach it from that perspective that, you know, this is this is what I'm dealing with, and that, you know, we all have those things. And I feel like that's a really important part in conjunction with the education piece.Hannah Choi 52:11Yeah, yep. Showing that empathy. And, and, and acknowledging their, their feelings and not denying them those feelings. And, yeah, yeah, it is hard, though. Yeah. What's what what I feel like is that, that, eventually, people who are feeling that way will hopefully feel, see the superpowers see the benefits of it, and are and are able to shift their perspective from something like wrong with them something that needs to be fixed to something like, oh, how can I leverage the, you know, the, the actual, like, really great things about this? And, you know, it does take a lot of work? Not, you know, it's definitely not easy, but I think that a shift in mindset can can help as well. Absolutely. Just wanted that therapy piece and executive function coaching thing coming.Amy McDuffie 53:05Right. Right. And I think also, you know, if it's possible, you know, to connect them with someone who has ADHD and has, you know, worked on some strategies and, you know, is able to share their perspective, I think that can be really helpful as well, because so many people are diagnosed with it, and, you know, are very successful. So I think that's a helpful piece, too.Hannah Choi 53:31Yep. Absolutely. And that we are seeing much less of a stigma around it, and people are more open to talking about it. And so hopefully, they are, you know, your your kid kiddos are able to connect with other people, I think, yeah, that's a really good point that you brought up, Amy. Thank you. All right. So next one. All right. Let's switch to an adult perspective. If you work in an office job, where you stare at computers all day, how can one unplug and not lose motivation to do other stuff? I feel like I can't separate myself from my electronics and I procrastinate on other things I need to do. That's a really I think this challenge for anybody right, regardless of your diagnosis. Yes. Especially in this day and age, this is you are absolutely not the first person to ask this question. I think many of our adult clients are saying yes, yes. Amy McDuffie 54:33Yeah. I agree with you there. Yes, absolutely. Because we do spend so much time, you know, staring at our screens, whether it's work or anything else, I think it's really helpful to you know, to actually schedule time away from the computer away from the screen, and, you know, whatever that looks like, whether you're actually in an office or working from home, but you know, scheduling that time and committing to sticking to it. I also think it's really helpful to enlist support, you know, whether from a family member or a friend, you know, to help you commit to that, whether it's, you're able to go for a walk, or whatever the thing is, where you're breaking away from it, you know, having support can be really motivating.Hannah Choi 55:25I have an adult client that I work with currently, and he is dealing with this exact same challenge at work. And he is lucky that he has an office so he is able to shut his door. So what he does is he schedules work time on his calendar, so he looks busy, so that people, you know, interrupt him less, and then he also shuts his office door. If you don't have an office door to shut, you can have, you could even put up a sign like I'm busy working, putting on headphones is a nice visual cue to other people that you are busy. And then the phone, the phone is a big one, they've done studies and they have found that we are I think 30% less effective. Just having our phone on our desk, even if it's flipped over and silenced, we are less productive. So I really encourage you to put your phone, like you know, leave your phone in your I don't know, on your friend's desk or your co workers desk or in your work bag or something. So it's really, really out of the way out of you know, the temptation zone. That can you really help if you feel like you can't put it away or you can't for some reason, maybe you need to be on call for a sick child or you have some other commitment where you really need to be connected to your phone. They do have apps that can help you with focus. So there's don't My favorite one is Focus Dog, which there's like a dog that makes doughnuts while you're focusing. We talked about that one before. There's also there's also Forest and you know, all those other focusing apps - the Flora flora. Yeah, those are both really like pre pretty ones. Right? So, if you want the tasty donuts get Focus Dog, Pretty one get Flora Forest or, or Flora. Those are some tools that you can use if you if you can't physically move your phone away from your Yeah, your workspace.Amy McDuffie 57:31Yeah, that's, that's great to know, to Hannah about the productivity. I need to I need to work on that.Hannah Choi 57:39Yeah, it's and I've actually asked my, a lot of my college clients, I challenged them to not have their phone with them when they're working. And they all begrudgingly admit that yes, they were more productive when their phone wasn't. So yes. But yeah, it is it is a powerful distractor having that there. SoAmy McDuffie 58:01yeah, definitely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 58:03All right. So let's see. Here's some more though is two more that will combine any tips for college freshmen with ADHD? What may be some good routines to practice over the summer? Great question. And then how do I help my teen who was diagnosed last month with ADHD? Learn some strategies to make things easier on them during the summer? While the pressure of school is off? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. Amy McDuffie 58:32Yes, are so great. And I, I love the thoughtfulness behind that. And, you know, taking advantage of summer time being, you know, a low stakes situation without the pressure school. And I really think it's a great time to work on things like organizational skills, whether it's your physical space to get that set up, you know, before school starts, or, you know, working on, you know, learning to use a planner or a Calendar, Google Calendar. This is something that I actually work on with my kids during the summer. You know, in terms of, you know, Google Calendar, and you know, helping them manage whether my daughter is dog sitting or babysitting, she uses like a physical wall calendar as well. So you know, whatever the organizational system is, that's going to be helpful just to get in the habit of using that. I feel like it's really important over the summer. What about you?Hannah Choi 59:29Yeah, yes, I'm working on that right now with a client where I'm encouraging them to. I joke and say, you have to change your relationship with your planner, you have to move beyond just holding hands. And so yeah, so I'm really encouraging them to write everything down in their calendar. And it's like you said, it's such a low stakes time. So even when they're going to hang out with friends, I encourage them to put it in their calendar. So they can just get in the habit of making the calendar event, you know, and then maybe even sharing it with their friends with their friends can also have it on their calendar, just to be a little bit of a role model and also have some built in some accountability. So, that's is such a great time to practice it.Amy McDuffie 1:00:20One of my clients, we actually started this summer, working on a schedule for laundry.Hannah Choi 1:00:27Because there's so many executive function skills. Yes, yes. And cooking, too.Amy McDuffie 1:00:33It's a good one, too. But yeah, so you know, even things like, you know, working on, you know, managing your chores, or, you know, setting up a plan to manage your laundry can be really hard to work on in the summertime. Yeah, so with one of my clients was laundry, like, we literally, you know, worked on making a schedule and a plan for the week of, you know, when to tackle laundry, and, you know, even down to, you know, pulling in some habit stacking that in the morning, right after the shower, we're going to start laundry and, and go from there. And it was really effective. And I think that's such a helpful thing to focus on in the summertime,Hannah Choi 1:01:16Especially for kids who are heading off to college. And we've, you know, we've talked about that, before, it's come up on a couple conversations on the podcast anyway, it's such a huge, huge thing. And there's so many executive function skills out there. Yeah. And also cooking to cooking is a really great way to practice executive function skills of planning and prioritizing and organization, and time management. And it, there's so many involved in there. And then also, they're learning the valuable skill of how to cook right is so important as you prepare to leave to leave the nest. Yeah, though. Yeah, absolutely. You're right. It is, it's such like a great low stakes environment to practice those things. And they, and they really, and you don't need to practice them in an academic way. You know, like the examples that we just gave have nothing to do with academics. But, and that's what's so cool about executive function coaching is how transferable all of the skills that our clients learn, like, like our student clients, learn, you know, strategies to support their academics, but all of those strategies are transferable to, you know, their daily life activities. It's pretty cool.Amy McDuffie 1:02:36Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's so valuable, too, because, you know, just thinking about things like laundry and cooking, I mean, those are skills, you you have to have your entire life unless, you know, you're in a situation where someone does that for you have to learn to manage those things. And I think back and I wish that someone had like, either really kind of worked on those things with me in a more direct way. I mean, I figured them out, as we do. Yeah, right. Right. You know, it really does just make me aware of the value of, you know, really directly teaching the skills and the systems that you can apply across the board.Hannah Choi 1:03:19And what is so great about that is that you can directly teach your kids those, those executive function skills without them even realizing that they're learning. So, you know, if you sat down and very, very formally said, now, we should work on time management, and, you know, like prioritizing, they're gonna roll their eyes and say, No, thank you. But, you know, just don't mention them and they're gonna learn them just accidentally.Amy McDuffie 1:03:48Exactly, exactly. There's so many ways to naturally weave that in. Yes, yeah. If we, if we formally approach it with our own kids, I feel like at that point, like, they're, they're no longer listening. Yeah.Hannah Choi 1:04:01That's right. It's like when they're little and you would like, I don't know, you'd like hide the spinach and something tasty. Like, if you tell them there's spinach in here, they're gonna like, I'm not gonna eat that. decided in there. They don't know. Exactly, exactly. Sorry, kids. Parenting is all about tricking you.Amy McDuffie 1:04:23It's actually it's not manipulation. It's education. Hannah Choi 1:04:28That's right, disguised as a brownie or laundry. Amy McDuffie 1:04:32You'll think this later.Hannah Choi 1:04:34And you'll do the same to yours if you have them. Thanks again for joining me, Amy, such a pleasure.Amy McDuffie 1:04:41Absolutely. Hannah. This was great. Thank you so much.Hannah Choi 1:04:45And that is our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you learned something new about ADHD or maybe you just found a new view of it. It truly can be a superpower with the right interventions. tools and strategies. As I mentioned before, if you want to watch the entire webinar, you can find the link to it in the show notes. I also included some links to the slides that we shared during the webinar. I hope you join me at our next webinar. You can find more about our upcoming events by signing up for beyond book smarts monthly newsletter, the monthly think, or by checking the Events page in the resources section of our website. If you know anyone who might want to learn more about ADHD, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and also you can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. And as always, if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. We would love it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast will let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Episode 300! -- SS300

Spearhead Sundays

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 11, 2023 69:09

Start 0:00Recap 2:55 My meds are working! 12:25I'm becoming a Fitness influencer 35:00Apple VR 44:20 My YouTooz figure drops is OUT NOW @ https://www.YouTooz.com

Rebecca Pt. 1: I Slept With Tom Sandoval Too #Scandoval

Secret Life

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 5, 2023 40:40

Sex, Love, Addiction, and Reality TV: The Toxic Relationships of Vanderpump Rules — Rebecca was deep in her alcohol and sex & love addiction 18 years ago when she met Tom Sandavol at a Hollywood house party, and they slept together. Despite the fact, they both were in relationships. In the latest episode of Secret Life, host Brianne Davis teams up with guest Rebecca to delve deep into the intricate and toxic relationships portrayed on Bravo's Vanderpump Rules. Their critical and insightful analysis sheds light on the complex patterns of behavior and underlying issues at play, specifically focusing on the tumultuous love affair between Tom's narcissistic tendencies and Ariana. By examining the emotional dynamics and uncovering the nuances often overlooked by society, the podcast offers a serious exploration of the complexities of human relationships. From Tom and Raquel's affair to Ariana's missing the red flags, Secret Life dissects the frustrations of recovered sex and love addicts who feel that society fails to grasp the intricacies of these situations. Whether you're a devoted fan of the show or simply intrigued by the intricate dance between sex and love addiction, this thought-provoking podcast is a must-listen. Check out the 40 Sex & Love Addiction Questionnaire for yourself:https://slaafws.org/40-questions/For more information about Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous: https://slaafws.org/_____If you or anyone you know is struggling with addiction, depression, trauma, sexual abuse or feeling overwhelmed, we've compiled a list of resources at secretlifepodcast.com.______To share your secret and be a guest on the show email secretlifepodcast@icloud.com_____SECRET LIFE'S TOPICS INCLUDE:addiction recovery, mental health, alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, OCD, ADHD, dyslexia, eating disorders, debt & money issues, anorexia, depression, shoplifting, molestation, sexual assault, trauma, relationships, self-love, friendships, community, secrets, self-care, courage, freedom, and happiness._____Create and Host Your Podcast with the same host we use - RedCircle_____Get your copy of SECRET LIFE OF A HOLLYWOOD SEX & LOVE ADDICT -- Secret Life Novel or on Amazon______HOW CAN I SUPPORT THE SHOW?Tell Your Friends & Share Online!Follow, Rate & Review: Apple Podcasts | SpotifyFollow & Listen iHeart | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | Amazon | PandoraSpread the word via social mediaInstagramTwitterFacebook#SecretLifePodcastDonate - You can also support the show with a one-time or monthly donation via PayPal (make payment to secretlifepodcast@icloud.com) or at our WEBSITE.Connect with Brianne Davis-Gantt (@thebriannedavis)Official WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterConnect with Mark Gantt (@markgantt)Main WebsiteDirecting WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterTranscriptBrianne 0:00:00Okay? So I know everything that's going on, and I just have to say to all the listeners, I don't do pop culture. I don't deal with that kind of shit. But this story, and I know you agreed with me, is so frustrating from a recovered sex and love addict that nobody's calling this shit, that they both are sex and love addicts.Tell me your secret, I'll tell you mine. Sometimes you have to go through the darkness to reach the light. That's what I did. After twelve years of recovery in sex and love addiction, I finally found my soulmate myself. Please join me in my novel, Secret Life of a Hollywood Sex and Love Addict. A four-time bestseller on Amazon. It's a brutal, honest, raw, gnarly ride, but hilarious at the same time. Check it out now on Amazon. Welcome to Secret Life Podcast.I'm Brianne Davis-Gantt. Today, I'm pulling back the curtains of all kinds of human secrets. You'll hear about what people are hiding from themselves or others. You know, those deep, dark secrets you probably want to take to your grave. Or those lighter, funnier secrets that are just plain embarrassing. Really, the how, what, when, where, and why of it all.Oh, my God. Today. My guest is Rebecca. Now, Rebecca, I have a question for you. Don't. Don't. Don't. What is your secret?Rebecca 0:01:31I had a one-night stand with Tom Sandoval 18 years ago when he had a girlfriend.Brianne 0:01:38Son of a nutcracker. He's been doing it for a long time.Rebecca 0:01:42Almost two decades.Brianne 0:01:44Two decades. Okay, before we get into it, when did this happen? Where did it happen? What?Rebecca 0:01:51Yeah, I know. So I met him originally in Miami. I lived in New York before, and I used to go to Miami a lot. And I want to say this was 2003 or 2004.Brianne 0:02:02Okay.Rebecca 0:02:03And I was drinking very heavily. Met him at a club. I was there with my sister. And I remember it's fuzzy because I was very, very drunk.Brianne 0:02:12This is before I got sober and.Rebecca 0:02:14I met him and a bunch of his friends at a club. And we thought he was cute, so we introduced ourselves, and then he said, Come hang out with us. And I remember him popping champagne bottles and spraying it, which he still does.Brianne 0:02:31Wow. Yeah.Rebecca 0:02:33And I don't remember who else was with him, but I know that he lived with Jax at the time, so.Brianne 0:02:37He might have been there.Rebecca 0:02:38I just don't remember. I didn't know him then, so we didn't hook up with him that night, but nothing happened. So then fast forward maybe a year, and at this point, me and my sister had moved to Los Angeles. And this is like, the height of my drinking. This is one of the most drunk nights I've ever had. Like, it sticks out as really out of control. Like, very out of control. And I went to a liquor store and I remember these guys coming in and thinking I was funny because I was drunk. And then they were like, do you want to go come to a house party with us? And like an idiot, I was like, sure. And I went to this house party. I don't know whose house it was, where it was, what part of town.Brianne 0:03:20Like, no clue, no memory.Brianne 0:03:22So scary. I'm so scared for you right now.Rebecca 0:03:25I know, but it was like a legit, typical Hollywood house party with a couple of another reality star. So there was probably some celebrities or well known Hollywood people at this party. And I remember seeing Tom sort of remember and going up to him. I'm like, oh, it's Tom Sandoval. Where I met him. Miami. I remembered him because we thought he was really cute. And I guess I went up to him and was like, do you remember me and my sister? She looks like a lot like me. And he said yes. And then I guess we were talking, and I said something like, my sister thinks you're really hot. Can I bring you home to her?Brianne 0:04:06We live together.Rebecca 0:04:07Can I bring you home for her?Brianne 0:04:09Like a present?Rebecca 0:04:11Exactly.Brianne 0:04:13Here's your party favorite. Enjoy. Okay.Rebecca 0:04:17I remember going home, and me and.Brianne 0:04:20My sister had lived together at the time, but she wasn't home for whatever reason.Rebecca 0:04:24So I said something like, well, I can't let you go to waste.Brianne 0:04:29Yeah, that's a line.Brianne 0:04:34Yeah.Rebecca 0:04:35He was completely unfazed by whoever, whatever. I was like, yeah, I can't let you go to waste, so do you want to go upstairs? And he was like, yeah, sure. I just remember thinking, okay, that was easy because at the time, I treated men like conquest, and I was very into male models. Since I had lived in New York, he was just another male model. So we went upstairs, did the deed. I sort of remember either. I told him first that I had a boyfriend.Brianne 0:05:04Okay.Rebecca 0:05:05He told me that he had a girlfriend, and it was very life, matter of fact.Brianne 0:05:08No guilt about it.Rebecca 0:05:10Just like, yeah, I have a girlfriend. Oh, yeah, I have a boyfriend. And then it was sort of right before the act.Brianne 0:05:16Yeah.Rebecca 0:05:17And then we did and it didn't take very long.Brianne 0:05:21It didn't last very long.Rebecca 0:05:22It wasn't very nothing to write home about, from what I remember. And then I guess I got his number because I gave it to my sister later, which is so weird and twisted.Brianne 0:05:31So weird and twisted. Alcoholic. Yeah. Here, I just left with him. Your turn, CIS.Brianne 0:05:41Yeah.Rebecca 0:05:41I was like, sorry, life. You weren't home. But she didn't care, and so he left. And then I hadn't seen him since. I haven't talked to him. I didn't ever text him.Brianne 0:05:52Okay. So I know everything that's going on, and I just have to say to all the listeners, I don't do pop culture. I don't deal with that kind of shit. But this story, and I know you agreed with me, it's so frustrating from a recovered sex and love addict that nobody's calling this shit, that they both are sex and love addicts.Brianne 0:06:16Exactly.Brianne 0:06:18It's so frustrating. And why did you reach out to me about it? Because I want to hear it from your point of view. Because you slept with him?Brianne 0:06:25Yes, because I've been watching the show, obviously. And I actually started watching because I recognized him on the commercials after I slept with him. This was about I don't know, it was years before Vanderpump Rules. And the whole case just fascinated me for so many reasons, as it does pretty much the rest of America and so many other people beyond. And it's just so layered and it's so interesting why it's captivated so many people. Considering cheating is not an uncommon thing, especially on Bravo, especially on Vanderpump Rules. It's like what the show was based on. So I really wanted to share that aspect of it and talk about how this is a pattern life. He was just found out. But this is happening 18 years ago. And since then I got sober, I'm in slaa, I've identified as a sex and love addict. So I just see so many things that people are not really talking about.Brianne 0:07:27Yeah, and society is missing. It's almost like a secret society is keeping from our human race, because the number one thing people want is love and affection and attention and intimacy. But majority of humans are terrified of it. So we go from person to person to person. Doesn't really even matter who they are, to get this need filled. And we're all just like running around like toddlers, wanting, giving, giving. And here's an example of two people willing to blow up their whole fucking life exactly. For that little thing where they think it's everything. It's that life. Roller coaster, intensity, passion. So let's break it down. So when you are watching it, and I know you've listened to a lot of other podcasts, I mean, JLo is talking about it like, JLo, that's crazy.Brianne 0:08:21It's in Time Magazine, it's in Variety, it's in every major publication. It sort of transcended the Bravo and reality show universe. And there's a reason why I think it's relatable to so many people, but they can't quite put their finger on why.Brianne 0:08:36Yeah. So what is other podcasts saying that's making you frustrated as a recovered sex and love addict?Brianne 0:08:42I just don't think that they're touching on that aspect. I think they're more focused on it's, like black and white. It's a betrayal, obviously, but they're not going into the nuances of what Tom might be feeling or where he might be coming from, or what's going on with Raquel, what their histories and their childhoods might have been like. And one of the most interesting things about it is that Ariana, it turns out knew about Miami Girl and was protecting him. And there's just so many aspects about their relationship that I relate to in other relationships as well. Sort of the manipulation and the narcissism. Not to diagnose anyone, although it used to be a therapist. But there's just so many things that people are missing. I've heard a couple of podcasts coming at it from a psychological and intuitive empathic sort of way. But most of the podcasts are missing.Brianne 0:09:41That well, they're just ragging on them. And listen, I'm speaking from a place where I was a cheater, cheated all the time, go from person to person, overlap them. So I'm coming in from and listen, I was a piece of shit. I will say that I was in my addiction. It was all about me. Selfish, self involved, fill me up, give me attention, give me what I need. In the moment the high wore off and the excitement, I would start looking for somebody else.Brianne 0:10:05I'm familiar, right?Brianne 0:10:06So I have no judgment on Tom. And then I also know, and you and I have talked about this before a long time ago. Well, not a long time ago, but when it came out, we said, listen, poor Ariana, she is the victim, but she also has a place when someone cheats, and I know a lot of people don't agree with me when someone cheats, it takes those two people in the relationship to actually make that happen. She avoided the red flags, she made excuses, she kept a secret, a huge.Brianne 0:10:40Secret for seven years that lied about it.Rebecca 0:10:44New women.Brianne 0:10:44Yeah. So she missed those signs. And then when the intimacy is going away, which she said, our intimacy has been bad, when that starts to break, you're responsible to repair it.Brianne 0:11:00Yes, and she said she tried, but we don't really know what happened.Brianne 0:11:06Yeah, she should have. But here's the thing, then she could say, something's missing, something's going on, you're staying out late, you're not home, you're not spending that much time with me. Red flag, red flag, red flag, red flag.Brianne 0:11:20Yes. And we've all done it. We've all ignored red flags and wasted years doing that. And then we're blindsided and then we're like, what happened? But in hindsight, we can see all the red flags that were there and that we maybe willfully ignored.Brianne 0:11:35So I did read something I Want to Tell you and see your take on it, that he's a narcissist. Listen, I had narcissistic tendencies. I'm not a narcissist, but I have them. And we're not saying he is. And then she did a post a while ago, raquel that she was going to codependency twelve step program Coda. And I was thinking it's not really a Coda situation because I pulled up some of the things is that you will still see a person that's destructive to you. So there's something in her. So that's like the questions. There's 40 questions in Flaw and one of them is, do you find yourself unable to stop seeing a specific person even though that person is destructive to you?Brianne 0:12:20Yeah. And she did this with James, too. I mean, James was destructive in a totally different way. But she seeks these men out that are very strong personalities and possible narcissists and manipulative. And they're very different in the way that they sort of abused her, but they both were pretty toxic for her.Brianne 0:12:42Overwhelming. She loses her sense of self in the relationship.Brianne 0:12:47Yes. And maybe she feels stronger having someone like that at her side because she's not strong on her own. She's kind of fascinating. She has a lot of oh, yeah. History. That she was adopted by her aunt.Brianne 0:13:05Abandonment, rejection from her birth mom.Brianne 0:13:09Yes. Even though she would probably deny it, because the way that she frames it is really interesting. She said something like, my birth mom was kind enough to give me to her sister, essentially because she couldn't conceive. And she framed it in a way that's a very pageant answer. And then the pageant is a whole that pageant world is a whole other animal where she competed against other women. Other women had this perfectionism, which is why I think a lot of times she seems rehearsed and very stoic and very put together, but there's nothing there.Brianne 0:13:49Well, here's number 14 is, do you feel desperate for a lover or a future mate? It's like instead of going outside this group, she went inside the circle and saw, oh, here's they have a house, they have this. This is what I want. Oh, and he's like a rock star now. Because here's the other thing I want to say. One of the huge characteristics for sex and love addicts, and I love this characteristic, it's my favorite. But we assign magical qualities to others. We idealize and pursue them and then blame them for not fulfilling our fantasies and expectations. And I believe both of them do that.Brianne 0:14:25Both of them did that for him. He was the answer to his midlife crisis. She made him feel seen. She made him feel special.Brianne 0:14:37Yes, you heard and validated.Brianne 0:14:41She's very different than Ariana. Ariana will tell it like it is, and she will just be heart eyes and just very admiring of him. And that's what he needed at that time. If he is a narcissist, that's what he's going to want. He's going to want someone admiring. But does she really see him? I don't know.Brianne 0:15:03No, she doesn't. So that's the thing. Even when they're talking to each other, because you and I just looked at some of the reunion, even when they were in that winnebago or away from the set, they were talking to each other. It's almost like they weren't even seeing each other. It was really interesting to watch. It was like their eyes were glazed over. So it's almost this false form of intimacy that I was seeing that they didn't even seem like they actually knew each other or that they've had sex before. Even when people I used to work as an actor, I go on set and I would know who's fucking who life. You're fucking the hair person, you're with the extra. You're doing this because you can feel that energy. But something in them, and it wasn't because the cameras were on them, because you can still see it. Because we could see it before. There's something where they used each other for false intimacy and it's actually not there.Brianne 0:15:58Yeah, they don't really do that, too. I did. I mean, both scenes that we saw of them together, pretty much everyone is saying that it was weird, it was awkward. And I'm sure most people chalked it up to and they could chalk it up to there's cameras there. But yeah, I didn't see the connection, the intimacy, the love.Brianne 0:16:16But they've had cameras for a long time, so they're used to cameras. It's not like somebody new.Brianne 0:16:21Yeah, but it was a secret that was being exposed and finally filmed. And so I'm sure they didn't know how to act, but I didn't see any connection or intimacy, literally.Brianne 0:16:32Could you see them having an affair for seven months? I did not feel that intimacy at all. It was almost like evaporates. And I think that's what I wanted to say to you, too, and see if you agree, is when we love secrets and lies, the dirtier, the dark, we get to fester in secrets and lies. And when it comes to light, it never lives up to the fantasy.Brianne 0:16:56You could see that the magic was gone, the bubble was burst. You could see that in the trailer. It's like, oh, consequences. Now it's real life, and we're not in this little secret, exciting, forbidden bubble anymore. Now everyone else is involved and it's ugly and it's real life. And like Ariana even said, wait till she starts having real demands and expectations of a girlfriend. She's not going to be so cool and exciting then. And that was Ariana's experience. It's the same pattern repeated.Brianne 0:17:31Yeah. And listen, Ariana could have a little love addict in her. And I believe most of society has this because we all yearn to be loved. But I wanted to read this characteristic. We feel empty and incomplete when we are alone. Even though we fear intimacy and commitment, we continually search for relationships and sexual contacts.Brianne 0:17:51Absolutely.Brianne 0:17:52I mean, how many stories have we I've heard much more stories about him. Been cheating a lot. Like 1112 people. So this is something where he's going into we call it relocating, where you go to other locations and you find people to intrigue with or flirt with or hook up with, and then you leave them there.Brianne 0:18:16Yeah.Brianne 0:18:20Sorry.Brianne 0:18:21No, that's okay. This is 18 years ago, and he had a girlfriend then. And then the next time I saw him, he was with Kristen. That was five or six years they lived together. Very codependent, cheating on her the whole time. And then he went right from that to Ariana. And then he cheated on her from the beginning, whether you want to call it cheating or not. Miami girl. And then I believe there are way more than two or three that he's admitting to.Brianne 0:18:50100%. I would give money on it, because what happens is this is a progressive disease. It's a thinking disease. It's actually not about the other person, we think. And it progressively gets worse. So the higher the stakes means you've been doing it a long time. And here's the stakes. It was her best friend seven months on television for them to even think. And she even said in the interview, I thought it would be okay with Ariana. I thought they would break up. Then him and I could start dating. That was my reality. And in my head, I was screaming, no, that was your fucking fantasy.Brianne 0:19:29Yeah.Brianne 0:19:31That is life. How toxic and how this disease will make you think the craziest things will work out and they won't.Brianne 0:19:40Yeah. I wonder if she thought that, because that's exactly what happened with Kristen and Ariana's overlap. Like, he came on the reunion, we didn't see this, but he had broken up with Kristen and then now he's with Ariana. And maybe she thought that their situation would play out the same way if they weren't caught. That's what would have happened. He would have broken up with Ariana, and the next reunion, they would be together next season, maybe, and everybody would just accept it eventually. That's what she thought. And I think she even said that I was living in my own little world. And even Lala also pointed out that.Brianne 0:20:17Living in fantasy, that she thought it was going to work out. I mean, even Randall, I've met him and gone in for him and castings and stuff. And it's like I smelled him from a mile away of also having this problem. Let's just get to it.Brianne 0:20:30Yeah. I think somebody said maybe it was Ariana. She said the way that he talks about her is exactly the way that he talked about me in the beginning. And so many I've looked at scenes that are almost identical of what he said about Kristen. We're not having sex. She cringes when I touch her. We were basically roommates. And he's saying the exact same things about Ariana. So it's a pattern of over. I mean, that's 15 years right there.Brianne 0:20:59Well, here's the third characteristic, and this one is going to nail ding, ding. It says furied emotional and sexual deprivation. So he felt he had emotional deprivation and sexual deprivation. We compulsively pursue and involve ourselves in one relationship after another, sometimes having more than one sexual or emotional liaison at a time, so that's that overlap. It's like, can't be alone. I'm empty. I'm empty. Fill me up. Give me the sexual needs. Give me the emotional needs.Brianne 0:21:37Yeah, it's life leapfrogging from one thing to another. Life I've never seen again. This is like two decades from what I've seen and from what I know of the exact same thing. I can't be alone. I can't be alone.Rebecca 0:21:50Can't be alone.Brianne 0:21:51I need that girlfriend, but I also need that excitement on the outside.Brianne 0:21:56Yeah. And here's Raquel's one. We confuse love with neediness. Physical and sexual attraction, pity or the need to rescue or be rescued.Brianne 0:22:06Yeah, with James, I guess she was trying to rescue him.Brianne 0:22:09Yeah, but here's the thing. She was trying to rescue Sandoval from his relationship with Ariana, and then she want to be rescued by him in her loneliness. And she couldn't sit within herself. And we were forgetting she hooked up with that other married guy before in Vegas.Brianne 0:22:29Schwartz.Brianne 0:22:31No, schwartz and then the one before. Yes.Brianne 0:22:34I mean, she went from Peter to Oliver to Schwartz, which I think was a decoy, set up something. It was either production or Sandoval trying to cover his tracks. Or she was trying to make him jealous. That both.Brianne 0:22:48I actually think both.Brianne 0:22:49Yeah, because he wasn't committing. I mean, I think what we're hearing is completely different than what they were talking about behind closed doors and what they had planned. Maybe. I mean, there's a theory that she was with Sandoval when she was with James and that's why she broke up with him. She broke the engagement off because it was kind of out of nowhere.Brianne 0:23:11Well, he was paying for their engagement, which is very odd, very strange. It's almost like the seeds were being planted. And it's like a type of not grooming, but a type of grooming situation where, listen, healthy people do not pick unhealthy people. I always say, when you do this work, anybody you choose right now is unhealthy because a healthy person sees those signs, sees those boundaries, and will not put up with them. So anytime someone with these behaviors, who they pick is just unhealthy? That's exactly it. Because here's the thing. Ariana did kiss him while he was with Kristen. There's a part of her that's unhealthy, and people aren't saying that. And listen, she is the victim. I feel horrible for her, absolutely terrible. But she also played out the same pattern. Yes. Not saying that.Brianne 0:24:12No, not saying that. I mean, it's interesting that she's so the victim right now. Everybody feels so bad for her. Andy did touch on it a little bit in the reunion. He said, Listen, this is a room full of cheaters. Ariana, you kissed Sandoval while he was with Kristen. And the thing is, in rewatching the show, she's never once copped to that and said, I mean, she admitted it, but she never said, yeah, that was wrong. I'm sorry, Kristen, that was wrong. That was still cheating. And by the way, I don't know if they just kissed. But even if they just kissed, that's still cheating. That's still doing the same thing that ended up kind of happening to her.Brianne 0:24:54But here's the thing. They're not saying my friend, they're not saying they had an emotional affair already. They were best friends. First of all, I don't know about you, but I don't believe men and women, if that's the sexual if that's who you're attracted to, I don't believe it's a healthy scenario to have a lot of guy friends or to have a guy best friend. No, I just don't. The energy exchange, usually somebody would fuck somebody, so it's not a real friendship.Brianne 0:25:23Agree.Brianne 0:25:24They were having an emotional affair. That's worse than kissing. That's worse. And no one's saying that.Brianne 0:25:32No one's saying that. I know it is. I mean, Kristen said that in the reunion. She said, well, you guys were having an emotional affair. And I think they kind of denied that. But it's pretty clear. I wouldn't want my boyfriend texting his friend who's really hot, who I'm threatened by at three in the morning and saying what certain things that they were saying. It's inappropriate, to say the least. And she never really owned that. Neither of them ever caught to that. We're friends, we're friends. And then he said the same thing about Raquel. We're friends. We're friends. We're dancing at the Abbey at 02:00 A.m..Brianne 0:26:08It's normal.Brianne 0:26:10No, it's not. It is not normal. Whoever you're hanging out whoever's hanging out with somebody at 01:00 A.m., that is not a healthy situation. In the dark is where things get fucked up. And here's the one I want to say, because this is the characteristic for what we're talking about, is having few healthy boundaries. We become sexually involved with and or emotionally attached to people without knowing them. Now, he could say, Ariana and I knew each other back then, and it's like, no, you didn't. You worked behind a bar. Yes, you worked together. But do you actually know the person? Probably they trauma bonded. Probably they complained about Kristen and she felt closer to him and they had this connection. Oh, my God. I can't tell you, if I hear one more person saying, oh, the connection, we were like, I've never connected to another person. I'm like that's a bunch of BS.Brianne 0:27:03Sorry.Brianne 0:27:04Yes.Brianne 0:27:08That was my alarm. Yeah. I think that she probably trauma bonded with him also because she had talked about in her last relationship, she dealt with a lot of emotional and verbal abuse, and she was talked down to and her self esteem was just obliterated. So, yeah, they probably did trauma bond over these toxic relationships that they were in. And they both said that. She said that over and over. Like, I've known him for six years. We've been friends for six years. As if that sort of or no, three years, I think it was at the time. As if that sort of overshadows the actual intimate relationship that Kristen had with him. And they acted like they knew each other on that intimate level because they were friends for three years.Brianne 0:27:56Yeah.Brianne 0:27:57And it's not the same thing. They didn't know each other that way. So they said, you don't even know.Brianne 0:28:04The person that you're with sometimes for years. My husband and I have been together for 18 years, and I still learn things about him. So if you think this overwhelming connection or you know this person, you do not you do not ever there's a part of us that is never fully yes, we're connected. I'm the most connected I've ever been, but I had years and years of therapy and work on myself and my intimacy and all of that. But Tom and Raquel or Tom and Ariana are all these scenarios. First of all, they don't know each other. You're living in an altered reality in general, on television. None of that is fucking real. I've been an actress for 20 something years. It is not real. None of it. So they all live in fantasy. And these two people, let's say, took the fantasy to the next level. And no one is calling it what it is. And now they say she's in rehab or a mental facility.Brianne 0:29:05Do you believe that? I want to know if you believe thatBrianne 0:29:08I don't. Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with her. I think it's probably a good thing that she's not in the public eye right now and in everyone's face, like Sandoval is. She's not flaunting. Whatever she's doing, I mean, it's good that she's out of the public eye in a way. I don't know where she is. Life. Maybe she's at a maybe she's with her parents. Maybe she's at because she seems very reliant on them. And, um maybe she's at a spa that she's sorry. Calling a wellness resort. Maybe there's a theory that she was pregnant and so she's in hiding at her grandmother's house. I don't know. She's more of the mysterious piece for me. She's hard to read.Brianne 0:29:52It's that facade. That mask is that perfectionism.Brianne 0:29:56It's the reflection that all these men because I look.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

I Find It to Be a Law

Play Episode Listen Later May 7, 2023

Romans 7:7-25I. Is the Law Sin? – 7-12II. Did That which Is Good Bring Death to Me? – 13-20III. Who Will Deliver Me from This Body of Death? – 21-25

death romans 25i this body 20iii

200. Growing Beyond Comfort

Be It Till You See It

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 20, 2023 37:51

Curious about thriving even when things don't go as planned? This episode delves into fostering self-reliance to tackle life's uncertainties and building confidence to embrace the unpredictable. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Client loyalty programs and rewardsCelebrating small victories and reinforcing positive decision-makingThe value of asking for help and acknowledging the support of othersPersonal growth and expansion through travelThree components to manifesting the life you wantEpisode References/Links:Join OPC for the members only challengeMay 6: Pilates Day! More about it soon.May: Elevate Round 3Upcoming Trips:May: Seoul, South Korea (Balanced Body's Pilates on Tour)July: UK Mullet Tour (Get on the waitlist or get more information at opc.me/uk)August: Summer West Coast Tour (Get on the waitlist at opc.me/tour)September: Poland Tour (Don't miss out on the information! Go to lesleylogan.co/poland)October: Cambodia (Pilates retreat. Go to lesleylogan.co/retreat)November: Miami Pilates on Tour If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipWaitlist for the flashcards deckUse this link to get your Toe Sox!ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan 00:01Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. We hit 200 Holy cow, you're listening to the 200th episode, this one right now in your ears. I mean, that's insane. 200 Okay, so we actually got here much sooner. And we weren't really paying attention. That's what happens when you're having a good time. And so we have not put together to another episode like we did for the 100. However, we wanted to take a moment to celebrate because you should celebrate your wins, no matter what mile markers you put, so happy 200 to us, we would not be here if it wasn't for you. So I just want to take a moment and say thank you, and I'm celebrating you today. So jump up and down. And I'm moving around in my seat. And and I just love the table, which everyone hates. Anyways, thank you again, from the bottom of my heart, to our teams. To everybody who touches this episode, including your ears, you have no idea how much it means to me. We are sitting in the top 2% of all podcasts in the entire world. That is like, do you know how many how many podcasts we beat because of you guys, so that tells me you'll love it. You want to listen to more of them. And I'm just so frickin grateful.Brad Crowell 05:27And now, today's episode.Lesley Logan 05:30Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the untraditional convo I had with Hillary Billings in our last episode. I think that also call it expanding.Brad Crowell 06:25I think we should just stick with expanding because the untraditional Yes, it's untraditional but she really dig digs into expanding.Lesley Logan 06:32Yeah, she's an expander. If you haven't yet listened that interview. Feel free to pause this now and go back and listen that one and then come back and join us. I had somebody actually DM me because they listened to the recap that we had about Phil Barth, and they're like, Okay, listen to your latest podcast. But what's a bo hag? Oh, and I said, Oh, well.Brad Crowell 06:50I think we talked about it. Lesley Logan 06:51Well, maybe we, I'm sure we did. Because you're so good at that. But I just said just go listen to him explain it. Brad Crowell 06:59I listened. I listened to the initial interview and I missed it. And I was like, What the hell are we talking about? So I had to go back and really dig in. So yeah,Lesley Logan 07:08Well then I thought we talked about it... Brad Crowell 07:10on the recap, we defined it, for sure. Yeah. Lesley Logan 07:12Oh, I was definitely on point with him there. Well, then. What's the bo hag?Brad Crowell 07:16big old hairy ass goal.Lesley Logan 07:19That's what I thought. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. A decade ago, a ton ago. Okay. So you guys, today is aside from being 420. Which those of you who know you know, then today is all that's for my brother who is a weak Somali a and if you are interested, there are people who like are really experts on that. And I'm not saying you anyone should be doing it or not doing it. I'm just saying if you're doing it, go see a Somali who like knows what to do with all the things and it's also more importantly, national death doula day. And if you're like, what is that? Well, my original assistant who is was on the podcast, Lindsay, she is not a death doula anymore. But she was a death doula before the pandemic and I just loved it. And I found out about a guy who's also a death doula, and I think I want to bring him on actually. Coincidentally, I used to go the church that he was a pastor at, so I feel like... (Brad: ohh random) I know so random. I know. Anyway, everyone's like she went to church with that foul mouth. Yes, y'all. I have a degree from a private university. And at any rate, if you don't know what that is, you should definitely look that up. Because it's actually a really cool way to look at death. And big shout out to Lindsay, our first assistant there's so many holidays, we can celebrate you. She's probably like, really, this is the day. This is the day that we've decided for this year. So anyways, yeah. It's not for that. It's for the death, doula. And she is rolling her eyes right now. Okay. Also, this week, we are in the middle of the OPC members only challenge and if you're like, wait, what? you're missing it! Well, if you are not an OPC member you are. And it's because we moved the OPC challenges into the members only group just because we will, we can have a lot more hands on experience with you. Because we have an app and we have a group and we have this whole it's just easier. So you can join OPC if you want to be part of the next challenge. Next month, May 6 is Pilates day. We'll have an event plan and I'm working on all the details. We can announce that to you in the actual so you can like plan for it. But everyone is going to be able to join in on it which is really exciting. Also next month elevate round three kicks off. If you are listening this in real time. There's only two spots left. Actually, I don't know they might be sold out by the time this comes out. But at the time that we're recording this before it comes out in real time. There's two spots left. I feel like I want to do round four. That is 2024 because it makes sense.Brad Crowell 09:55Next year!Lesley Logan 09:56Next year. Also coming up may we are in Seoul. We are bringing flashcards to balance buddies P O T supplies on tour. It's our first time back to Seoul in three years. And we just secured a mat reformer and Cadillac cards for them to have at that P O T. So if you live in Korea and you've been wanting the cards, you better sign up for P O T. I'll be teaching there. July if you live in UK or if you want to fly to the UK, we are coming there for our mullet tour. Yep, that's what it's called. I'm so excited. You can get on the waitlist or get more information to opc.me/uk (...) said mullet and I mean, I absolutely do. But the true definitionBrad Crowell 10:39Business in the front Pilates in the back.Lesley Logan 10:41Yeah. And August we're doing a summer West Coast tour. You can get on the waitlist and opc.me/tour that is the US states West Coast. Australia, I know you got one. I want to get there. We're not there yet.Brad Crowell 10:56Everyone has a West Coast.Lesley Logan 10:58If there's if there's two coasts, that's true. Like Spain is like, there's not you know what I mean? Like in Europe as well (...) Canada might have, no because they've a West Side ,west coast. I don't know. Somebody who knows geography can explain that to me. But anyways, the places that would think of the West Coast, we're gonna be in the US if you are wanting to be a host for that. And you're like, I want to fill a class and I want you to stop at our place then ping the team... (Brad: yeah, makes sure we know) Yeah, shout it out. September Poland. Stay tuned. Actually, the time this comes out. I'll have a link for you. But you can always just go to Lesley logan.co/poland And we'll make sure you don't miss out on the information. We are bringing flashcards to Poland and to the UK. October Cambodia. Oh my gosh, the women's...Brad Crowell 11:47Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say we have a super fun group already. That has already decided they're coming literally, they're buying their plane tickets now. And we'd love to have you join us too. It's gonna be really incredible. Also, we you know, don't have an infinite number of spots. So don't sit on this. There's still plenty of time for you to find tickets that aren't like insanely expensive and get your visas and all that stuff we can all get through all that soLesley Logan 12:15snag your spots so you don't miss out and then also there's plenty of time to buy the plane ticket, plane tickets prices change you knowBrad Crowell 12:21Yeah. You don't have to worry about the only thing you have to worry about is getting yourself there will pick you up from the airport and then you will that's furtherLesley Logan 12:28By the way. I just said flexual and I meant flexible and and... (Brad: flexual?) flexual and like...Brad Crowell 12:34That's a 420 day. Lesley Logan 12:36No, no, I don't know what the other word like they they they're fluid and flexible. Like the prices are always changing. Like it's like sexual but not, okay. November November. One of the greatest times to be in Miami. I thought so and so requested that, so we'll be at the Miami P O T. More to come on that because...Brad Crowell 12:58Oh wait, but you're gonna be down there priorLesley Logan 13:00We're gonna be there prior. Our (...) will be there for the (...) weekend together. Brad Crowell 13:06Yeah. And I will be joining both of you at the P O T.Lesley Logan 13:09 Yes. Which by the way, if you want to know what's going on with that we don't know anything about the P O T part. We just know it's happening... (Brad: and we're just gonna be showing up) Yeah, we're just showing up because that's what the party is at, it's Miami... (Brad: with flashcards) Yeah, with flashcards. And if you're like I don't wanna wait for flashcards, to all these dates, you can buy them anytime, y'all. So anyways, that's our trips. And we're gonna keep doing that so that you are invited to hang out with us in person. Somewhere in this world. We're trying to get to different places. It's fine.Brad Crowell 13:37Yeah. So thanks for joining us on these quick announcements. All right, on to an audience question. What do you think about client loyalty programs? Do you have a workshop that addresses them? I scrolled through your website. Maybe I missed it. Thanks. Well, the smiley face. Lesley Logan 13:56Yeah. So a Pilates studio asked me to send DMS and I don't coach in the DMS. So you're welcome to ask and we'll just answer them on here. Unless you're an agency member, and then I'll answer your agency. And I actually thought this is a really great question to talk about today because Hillary billings actually connected us to Brittany Kodak. Yeah. And Brittany Kodak wrote the book creating superfans which is out now and you can get it on Audible she did the reading and also you can get the hardback it's actually really cool hardback book to have. And we will have her on the podcast, her episodes gonna drop, I think sometime in May. So the reason I bring this up is I just don't really I stand by you. It's really hard to pay people to talk about your product. Yeah. And it's really tough. So...Brad Crowell 14:42Unless you're paying them like $1,000Lesley Logan 14:44Yeah, I mean, well, here's the deal. We have affiliate programs like so I would even call it a client loyalty program or an affiliate program. We have those. And we let our people sign up for them because they're going to talk about anyways and we want to reward them for that. However, we don't Push it. So I'm not like, Hey, guys, it's the month of May. And anytime you any new member, you get me you get paid double. And the reason I don't do that is because I really do want the referral to be authentic and genuine, someone asked them or they're talking to someone, and they think that this is the appropriate thing for them. Regarding studios with client client loyalty programs, here's the deal. People actually want you to solve the problem that they have. That's why they hired you. And what I would recommend you do is actually become obsessed with solving their problem as quickly as possible and making sure that they have the most amazing experience, that they just can't wait to tell their friend about it. However, the truth is, is that there are influencers out there that make their money off of off of being an affiliate. And there are programs out there that can be really great client loyalty programs, what I would say is, without knowing your business, if you don't have a big studio with multiple teachers, and tons of classes every week, the client loyalty program is really hard to keep on top of mind, because you need a team and you need enough people to actually be like winning the things that people it's just becomes another thing you have to manage. Brad Crowell 16:30Well, but also, I mean, you know, your program doesn't have to be this formal, dedicated, like written out side of contract program. It can literally be like, Hey, thanks for referring Susie. Here's a $50 gift card to the Italian joint down the street.Lesley Logan 16:44Yeah, and I guess and also like, if there you could also not have a program and just like, have set up in your thing that anytime someone's a client that a year from now, you're alerted, so that you just send them something like that, that would be cool. Why have them sign up for a program that you could just surprise them with something?Brad Crowell 17:03Yeah, or their birthdays, you know, you do something special Lesley Logan 17:06I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal something from Brittany. In her book. She says why not? Like, of course, absolutely. Definitely celebrate their birthday with them. But what if you just set a reminder this celebrate their half birthday with them? That's a fun idea. Yeah, like, yeah, so that's really fun. So I would just say like, what do I think about them? I think they can be great. I don't think that they're going to they're the I don't think that that is the thing that's going to make or break your business?Brad Crowell 17:30Well, I don't think that's the thing that's going to get your clients to refer their friends. No, it's just a nice perk that keeps you top of mind that that that continues to reinforce how much they love you, you know, unless you're running like a true affiliate playbook. You know, these are more like, like, really fun relationship building perks.Lesley Logan 17:54Yeah. I mean, and also, like, if you're thinking, Well, I just want to celebrate how many classes they come to, or how long they've come? I would just do it without having a fancy schmancy program. Brad Crowell 18:05I'm not opposed to that, though. Like if you have really happened in studio, where you're running group classes all the time, having a loyalty program where like, when somebody hits, 100 classes, 250 classes, 1000 classes, that's, that's, that can be an incredible driver for people to come back often and to really participate as much as they can. Because they want their name on the wall, or they want the coat that you're going to give them or whatever. But if that's not the style of studio you run then, you know,Lesley Logan 18:38Also you'll read in her book because you're gonna read her book because she's gonna be on the show, but you'll read in her book that like, yes, people are accustomed to getting emails like this is how many classes you went to this week. This is how much you did this, but it doesn't they it doesn't mean like Peloton emails me every week. They don't send me any gifts. I still open the email. I still use my Peloton. So you don't have to give them things all the time. But you can give them shout outs from time to time and I'm just I think the thing that I'm afraid of saying is like, yes, have a loyalty program and the solopreneurs are like, how do I do that? I have like nine clients.Brad Crowell 19:12Yeah, I agree. It's not gonna be the make it or break it. Lesley Logan 19:17Every person can reward clients with some sort of love note at different points in the journey with you. You don't have to have any fancy technology for that. If you're a big studio who has a team and capacity to include this, fine, do it but if you think it's like, oh, this is how I'm going to get to my seven figures or am I this figures. No, your actual treatment of clients in the studio before they work with you when they left you. That is absolutely going to make the difference in your business. The client loyalty program is extra icing on the top.Brad Crowell 19:53Yeah, no, I'm with you. 100% There. Lesley Logan 19:56Okay, great.Thanks for agreeing with me. Okay, let's talk about Hillary Billings.Brad Crowell 20:49From the beaches of Nicaragua. Hillary's adventure began as a travel blogger, she became Miss Nevada. And today she is actually a sought after brand strategist and speaker, sidenote, lion tamer, what I don't even know I need to learn more about this. Lesley Logan 21:07Oh, you guys, we had her speak in the agency group. And she is a lion tamer or was a lion tamerBrad Crowell 21:14Hilary works. Hillary uses psychology to get attention for companies both on and offline in a content saturated world. And she and her partner actually have this amazing company where they are teaching people how to make content that is viral. And I know that's like the gimmick word. But they have a very scientific approach to how they analyze content that could and should be viral. And if you can hear dogs in the background that being hilarious or no, yeah. But it's, it's kind of amazing. We're actually about less than (...) bootcampLesley Logan 21:49Attentioneers. And at the time you've listened to this, we've already taken their boot... (Brad: Yes, that's true) We'll put the link to the bootcamp below. Yeah, we have a we have a link for you. Anyways, I She's just I mean, like, talk about like, a cat has lived Nine Lives.Brad Crowell 22:03Yeah. Oh, yeah. 100%. Like, I definitely was like, every time she kept going with her story. I was like, what? And what? And what?Lesley Logan 22:11I know. I know. So, so. Cool. So um, and we talked about this on the episodeBrad Crowell 22:16dude, like research, scientific research. She basically put herself through college on scholarships. She helped her parents buy their house or somethingLesley Logan 22:28Well, first of all her company's quality engineers. Second note, do you remember the guy who introduced Do you remember Michael? I think his name was Michael. He wrote that book about his journey. And like, he's the one he's like, Oh, my friend is Miss Nevada. And she lives in Las Vegas. Let me introduce her. He's the first person to introduce me to her in June of 2020.Brad Crowell 22:46Right. So we were introduced to her multiple times over multiple years. And it took until this year to finally connect the dots. Lesley Logan 22:55It's like you and me getting together. It just took the universe a lot of extra work to get you to pay attention.Brad Crowell 23:02Yeah. All right.Lesley Logan 23:03Let me tell you what I love. Re enforcing good decision making behavior. So she talked a lot about there's a couple of examples she gave, but first of all celebrate the micro decisions. So remember, when she was talking about when she's traveling like, and she was alone, she would find a place to have breakfast, and then she'd celebrate like me, I like found a place in a foreign place to have something I like to eat. Like, that's really amazing. And I think especially the women listen to this if your listeners Hello, perfectionist, recovering overachiever, that means you. It's too often I see people not celebrate that they did these things even big deal things. It's like leaving your hotel room. I will never forget when I was in Brazil by myself. And I got to my hotel room and I slept for 12 hours. And then I got up and I was like, Okay, I got to go eat. And I was like, I thought, What am I going to eat and I googled and like I like everything is in Portuguese and I like walked to the place and I got the breakfast and then I walked back to my hotel, because that's all I had researched. And I was like, I did it. I did that. And these are the ways that you build confidence. And also when she talked about her horse, like she would give like little they called like muffins, cookies, cookies, like her her horse was a skittish horse and not and I'm not saying your horse, but like more was Hillary but like, you give them the cookie to the horse to reinforce the good behavior, then they're less scared of the thing. And so you too, need to give yourself a cookie. Every time you do something that is like outside of your comfort zone and it doesn't have to be a 10 feet out to the computer. It could be a millimeter.Brad Crowell 24:40Yeah, for her bigger picture of this was she had been in control but in control, like she grew up in a in a in a environment where she didn't have control. Her parents didn't have much money. She didn't have you know much luxury or any of that stuff. And then she put herself through college by taking control. Yes, and then she got rejected from all the colleges that she was trying to go to Lesley Logan 25:02also, just like every millennial, we had, that you do this, and then you do this and you do this. So you write, you do all the sports and you have a job and you apply to colleges and you volunteer, you do 17 things. And you do you do it, and it's picture perfect. And you get into the thing, and then she didn't get into the thing.Brad Crowell 25:22And it was it was a fail. Right? So and but it was a fail. Okay, she didn't get into the schools that she wanted to go through. Yeah, not on her fault. But it still didn't go the way she wanted. So what did she do? She threw it all the wind. And she went around the world to travel, which is like, there's no control in that. Right? And so when she got back, when she got to these places, she was thinking, okay, cool. I just succeeded at a thing. She said she was often really like, felt alone and scared. And this is like before the internet was everywhere, and Wi Fi and cell phones and stuff. And so the idea of reinforcing, you know, quote, unquote, good behavior. Instead, reinforce success, reinforce those wins, remind yourself, she said, review your history, see where you've succeeded in the face of adversity, then you can conclude that you've succeeded, even when you didn't have control. It didn't go the way that you wanted, but you still were able to succeed. So the ultimately, that allows you to look forward in the future and say, even though I don't know what's going to happen, I know that when I didn't have control in the past, I was still able to succeed.Lesley Logan 26:32Yeah, and I will, there's an upcoming episode, spoiler alert, that what's really cool is when you do things like this, and you celebrate those wins, and you give yourself a cookie, you start to have these moments where you can count on you like recognize you can count on yourself, right? And that is so key for showing up when you don't know what's going to happen. Because I know like when everything hits the fan, I'm like, I know, we can count ourselves. Like I might not be able to count on this technology, or this company or this thing, but I know I won't let myself down. You won't let ourselves down. So like, you know, so anyways, but that comes you gotta you got to actually like recognize that.Brad Crowell 27:11Yep. Yeah... (Lesley: What did you love?) So I, I love the idea that you can't do it alone. And it is whatever it is, you might be, we all need help. Right? And we need to know when to ask for help and how to get it. And this stood out to me because of my entrepreneurial journey, and experience and being in the band and doing all these things. I just assumed that I have to do it myself, whatever it is. And she kind of laughs at that and says, Hey, even though you made the decision to go to breakfast, you getting breakfast, you have help getting breakfast, you had to get there. So maybe you took a ride, you had help from someone, you had to order get help from someone there, they had to have the food. That means there's like, whole supply chain and farmers and like, you know, like people driving it to the restaurant involved. Right. So we've I think that it's really funny that we think I did this on my own. You know, maybe you set up a studio in your house, I did this on my own. Did you make the equipment? No, you didn't. Right? So you had help? Even if it was a company, you had help!Lesley Logan 28:31Even if you did make the equipment yourself, somebody made the wood... (Brad: Oh, her partner made it) okay, but Right? Well, I understand maybe she wants to say let's just for the example that I'm trying to make, let's just say that she made it somebody else made the like metal hooks, right? Somebody else made the springsBrad Crowell 28:48like yeah, the boards that she bought, I mean all the things. So like, we have this, this weird concept that I have to do it myself in order for it to be a win in my book. And I think that we can dispel that notion, you know, we can let go of the idea that I did it myself because that's not actually real.Lesley Logan 29:09And also, why are we so obsessed with doing it ourselves?Brad Crowell 29:14I actually don't know, like I wrote down where did we learn that we have to do it on our own in air quotes, you know, in order for us to chalk up that quote unquote, win on our own board because I agree, I don't I don't know we just I think must be just this like natural inclination. And I think that we should let that go.Lesley Logan 29:36I think it's because we have somebody gets an award. So like when people get an award in school, you get an award. You get an award for the spelling bee they don't go and your teacher got an award and your school got an award and the janitor who made sure to clean classroom got an award like they don't do that. But I like every single person who you've ever heard a speech get an award thank somebody. And if they miss someone that makes the news but everyone thanks somebody. So anyway, stop trying to do it all on your own. So many people want to help you. There are so many people who are like literally like going, oh my god, I'm so good at copywriting. And you could just hire them. They don't want to be the face. They don't want to do the things. They just want to write words down. That sound cute. That's what they want to do. Like they need you so that they can do the thing that they want to do anyways. Okay. Brad Crowell 30:28Love it. Alright, so finally, let's talk about those Be It action items what bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Hillary Billings?Lesley Logan 31:20Speaking of travel to Cambodia.Brad Crowell 31:22Yeah, so she said, travel to get uncomfortable. And she said this is something that really was something she was able to do more in her 20s when she wasn't, you know, owning a horse, like had a place and stuff like that here in Vegas, but travel to get uncomfortable. And then while you're uncomfortable, figure out how you can make it comfortable. And that will help you create this confidence, like we talked about earlier, that you are able to survive through situations where you don't necessarily have control. Yeah, she said today she uses different tools in order to find expansion and the growth that she's wanted. But travel is an amazing way to do it. And we absolutely recommend joining us in Cambodia because it is a little bit scary. But it's also so rewarding.Lesley Logan 32:14What's so scary? It is scary to be on long flights. It is scary to go to a place you've never seen before... (Brad: the scariness is just simply the unknown) It's the unknown, but it is very safe.Brad Crowell 32:25We've gone so many times. Yeah. Her dad has joined us. He's a 70. He's only 71. He's joined us three times now in the last three years (...) But yeah, he's brought us three times now.Lesley Logan 32:45Yeah, I do think I've really there's something about travel, that really helps you, like get comfortable with uncertainty and unknowing. And especially when you're with people who know things. So there you go. It's like it's like a it's like a cheat. I love it. It's like training wheels.Brad Crowell 33:02And it's one of the like, you know, you mentioned this earlier about when you were Brazil, I remember the first time you know that I was in Cambodia by myself... (Lesley: Oh, yeah. You went without me to get the house) to get the to get the house. And it was just me and I was in a new neighborhood. I didn't really, I mean, I still had a couple of relationships there. But they were working and busy. And I had to basically do the same thing. Like, what am I going to eat breakfast, and I couldn't even Google it. It wasn't like,Lesley Logan 33:32No like the places that do breakfast, they don't have a website.Brad Crowell 33:35Yeah. So you know, it was like, Alright, I guess I'll just get on my bicycle and ride up the street and see what happens. And then okay, that's enough. And I'll go back. And you know, and then obviously, the more you do it, the more confident you get. And now today, we know we have relationships with most of these places. Lesley Logan 33:50Except for the people that make my bananas and my (...)Brad Crowell 33:55(...) carts, but they move, they move around.Lesley Logan 33:57And my lady, she takes random days off and then some of them will roast the bananas, but they won't make potato cakes and some of them like and the only thing in the morning and it's just, I I just really want it I want that to be served. Anyways, this isn't me complaining at this point. Let me talk about my takeaway. So um, okay, so she actually also interviewed actually, I was mentioned Lacy Phillips, To Be Magnetic is her podcast and we will work on getting her on Hillary. Let us hope. Okay, so there are three components to manifesting the life you want. So this is what Lacy Phillips created. So the step number one is always be expanding if you're like whaaat?, so you can find expanders, like you can actually like, find people who you're like, Oh my God, they're always expanding. You know, these people are they're like, always learning something new. They have an abundance mindset like things don't scare themBrad Crowell 34:47or they've already done what you're trying to do. Yes. Right. So you know, and it allows you to feel confident that it's possible, right?Lesley Logan 34:55Yep, unlock second step, unlock limiting beliefs. So first, this is like goes back to the artists way, you have a limiting belief like you whenever you say I can't do that, that they're just saying that's a limiting belief or that won't work for me orBrad Crowell 35:08no matter how kindly you say you can't do that to yourself, oh, I can't do that. I'm never gonna say, No, you're still holding on to a limiting belief.Lesley Logan 35:16Oh my gosh, yeah, so that's a limiting belief. So first of all, like, you have to actually feel deserving, and worthy of receiving what you want. So that's one place worth exploring. And then do you believe that you want what you want as possible?Brad Crowell 35:33Right, so that goes back to the expanders that you surround yourself with.Lesley Logan 35:36And then, um, see to believe is a reprogram that you can like you can doBrad Crowell 35:43well, this idea that we have to see it to believe it. Yeah, you know, like, there's, there's a sense that it's helpful, but it's not necessary.Lesley Logan 35:50Well, also, like, there are so many people who have done things in parallel lines of work, or ideas that you can use, right? Like, in my world, I'd never seen people do what I was doing with the flashcards, but tarot cards were existence. So like, you can find different evidences to prove but also don't use like, well, it's never happened before, so it won't work. No one landed on the moon before someone landed on the moon. So hello, right. And then. And then lastly, like really understanding what it is standing in the way of your fears and like, get really honest with like, say it out loud.Brad Crowell 36:34So there are fears that are standing in the way of your beliefLesley Logan 36:38in The Artists Way, she actually has you like, say some affirmations. And when you say them, if there's any, any cognitive dissonance around it. She asked you to like figure out who told you that when did this start happening? When did you have this thought when did this thing come up. And then that is going to help you figure this out, because you have to unlock those limiting beliefs. And lastly, which will be called my brother, Leslie Lacy Lastly. Take aligned action. Remember action is the antidote to fear and action makes clarity. So, aligned action I think can actually sound a little like on the double blue side, like taking aligned action and like, you know, whatever. Aligned action just means like, take a step that is actually going up, is in alignment. I hate using the word definition but goes along with what you are actually trying to have and do so if you are wanting, we're, okay, I want to know hobby. If you've been listening this podcast for two years, I've been working on it. You guys have been working on it. So taking an alignment and aligned action, it doesn't have to be perfect. Like the things that I have tried as hobbies have failed. Not it's nothing against them. It's just it didn't work for me. So I can't go up. Never gonna have a hobby. Again. That'd be a limiting belief. Instead, I'm like, No, people have hobbies that are my age who have their own businesses. I'm looking for these expanders, what is something else I want to do and then taking an action. So we are signed up to take a beginner climbing, rock climbing course. So I'm gonna do that because I I think it could be a cool hobby. At any rate, aligned action is just simply taking a step towards the thing that you want. And you are going to have to unlock those limiting beliefs to figure out what that next step is. And you'll have to go with an expander or stalking one online to help you get those things. All right. I'm Lesley Logan,Brad Crowell 39:26and I'm Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 39:28And the dogs have lost their minds. We're gonna wrap this up. We are so grateful for you truly, uh, you have no idea. Brad and I actually spent a week at a pod, podcasting conference convention conference. Yeah. And I think it was you guys. And as I was in all these different sessions, I was like, Is this going to actually work for them? Is this going to help them? Is this going to help us get more listeners? You know, and we're really excited. So we have a special announcement to share very soon. You'll actually hear about it as soon as it's ready. But there's all these different opportunities we've been looking at and we've been thinking about you and it's because we hear, we see your views, we hear, we read your surveys, we are talking with you, you share our stuff and you tell us what you like and sometimes what you don't like. And I appreciate that so much. And so thank you for joining us today. Thank you for sharing the show, however you do that. And we want to know as you've said in every episode, how are you going to use these tips in your life? What are what was your favorite Be It action item. What were your favorite talking points? Who your favorite guests is? send us an a DM, tell us a question you want us to ask on the next Recap and until next time, Be It Till You See It. Brad Crowell 40:26Bye for now.Lesley Logan 40:26That's all I've got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us help others to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day! ‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network'.Brad Crowell 40:26‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘Bloom Podcast Network'. It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli. Lesley Logan 40:26It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli. Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing. Brad Crowell 40:26Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi. Lesley Logan 40:26Special thanks to our designer Mesh Herico for creating all of our visuals, (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week, so you can.Brad Crowell 40:26And to Angelina Henrico for transcribing each episode, so you can find it on our website. And finally to Meredith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time. Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Eliezer Yudkowsky - Why AI Will Kill Us, Aligning LLMs, Nature of Intelligence, SciFi, & Rationality

It's Not Rocket Science! Five Questions Over Coffee

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 6, 2023 243:25

For 4 hours, I tried to come up reasons for why AI might not kill us all, and Eliezer Yudkowsky explained why I was wrong.We also discuss his call to halt AI, why LLMs make alignment harder, what it would take to save humanity, his millions of words of sci-fi, and much more.If you want to get to the crux of the conversation, fast forward to 2:35:00 through 3:43:54. Here we go through and debate the main reasons I still think doom is unlikely.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.As always, the most helpful thing you can do is just to share the podcast - send it to friends, group chats, Twitter, Reddit, forums, and wherever else men and women of fine taste congregate.If you have the means and have enjoyed my podcast, I would appreciate your support via a paid subscriptions on Substack.Timestamps(0:00:00) - TIME article(0:09:06) - Are humans aligned?(0:37:35) - Large language models(1:07:15) - Can AIs help with alignment?(1:30:17) - Society's response to AI(1:44:42) - Predictions (or lack thereof)(1:56:55) - Being Eliezer(2:13:06) - Othogonality(2:35:00) - Could alignment be easier than we think?(3:02:15) - What will AIs want?(3:43:54) - Writing fiction & whether rationality helps you winTranscriptTIME articleDwarkesh Patel 0:00:51Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Eliezer Yudkowsky. Eliezer, thank you so much for coming out to the Lunar Society.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:00You're welcome.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:01Yesterday, when we're recording this, you had an article in Time calling for a moratorium on further AI training runs. My first question is — It's probably not likely that governments are going to adopt some sort of treaty that restricts AI right now. So what was the goal with writing it?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:25I thought that this was something very unlikely for governments to adopt and then all of my friends kept on telling me — “No, no, actually, if you talk to anyone outside of the tech industry, they think maybe we shouldn't do that.” And I was like — All right, then. I assumed that this concept had no popular support. Maybe I assumed incorrectly. It seems foolish and to lack dignity to not even try to say what ought to be done. There wasn't a galaxy-brained purpose behind it. I think that over the last 22 years or so, we've seen a great lack of galaxy brained ideas playing out successfully.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:05Has anybody in the government reached out to you, not necessarily after the article but just in general, in a way that makes you think that they have the broad contours of the problem correct?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:15No. I'm going on reports that normal people are more willing than the people I've been previously talking to, to entertain calls that this is a bad idea and maybe you should just not do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:30That's surprising to hear, because I would have assumed that the people in Silicon Valley who are weirdos would be more likely to find this sort of message. They could kind of rocket the whole idea that AI will make nanomachines that take over. It's surprising to hear that normal people got the message first.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:47Well, I hesitate to use the term midwit but maybe this was all just a midwit thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:54All right. So my concern with either the 6 month moratorium or forever moratorium until we solve alignment is that at this point, it could make it seem to people like we're crying wolf. And it would be like crying wolf because these systems aren't yet at a point at which they're dangerous. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:13And nobody is saying they are. I'm not saying they are. The open letter signatories aren't saying they are.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:20So if there is a point at which we can get the public momentum to do some sort of stop, wouldn't it be useful to exercise it when we get a GPT-6? And who knows what it's capable of. Why do it now?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:32Because allegedly, and we will see, people right now are able to appreciate that things are storming ahead a bit faster than the ability to ensure any sort of good outcome for them. And you could be like — “Ah, yes. We will play the galaxy-brained clever political move of trying to time when the popular support will be there.” But again, I heard rumors that people were actually completely open to the concept of let's stop. So again, I'm just trying to say it. And it's not clear to me what happens if we wait for GPT-5 to say it. I don't actually know what GPT-5 is going to be like. It has been very hard to call the rate at which these systems acquire capability as they are trained to larger and larger sizes and more and more tokens. GPT-4 is a bit beyond in some ways where I thought this paradigm was going to scale. So I don't actually know what happens if GPT-5 is built. And even if GPT-5 doesn't end the world, which I agree is like more than 50% of where my probability mass lies, maybe that's enough time for GPT-4.5 to get ensconced everywhere and in everything, and for it actually to be harder to call a stop, both politically and technically. There's also the point that training algorithms keep improving. If we put a hard limit on the total computes and training runs right now, these systems would still get more capable over time as the algorithms improved and got more efficient. More oomph per floating point operation, and things would still improve, but slower. And if you start that process off at the GPT-5 level, where I don't actually know how capable that is exactly, you may have a bunch less lifeline left before you get into dangerous territory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:46The concern is then that — there's millions of GPUs out there in the world. The actors who would be willing to cooperate or who could even be identified in order to get the government to make them cooperate, would potentially be the ones that are most on the message. And so what you're left with is a system where they stagnate for six months or a year or however long this lasts. And then what is the game plan? Is there some plan by which if we wait a few years, then alignment will be solved? Do we have some sort of timeline like that?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:06:18Alignment will not be solved in a few years. I would hope for something along the lines of human intelligence enhancement works. I do not think they're going to have the timeline for genetically engineered humans to work but maybe? This is why I mentioned in the Time letter that if I had infinite capability to dictate the laws that there would be a carve-out on biology, AI that is just for biology and not trained on text from the internet. Human intelligence enhancement, make people smarter. Making people smarter has a chance of going right in a way that making an extremely smart AI does not have a realistic chance of going right at this point. If we were on a sane planet, what the sane planet does at this point is shut it all down and work on human intelligence enhancement. I don't think we're going to live in that sane world. I think we are all going to die. But having heard that people are more open to this outside of California, it makes sense to me to just try saying out loud what it is that you do on a saner planet and not just assume that people are not going to do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:30In what percentage of the worlds where humanity survives is there human enhancement? Like even if there's 1% chance humanity survives, is that entire branch dominated by the worlds where there's some sort of human intelligence enhancement?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:07:39I think we're just mainly in the territory of Hail Mary passes at this point, and human intelligence enhancement is one Hail Mary pass. Maybe you can put people in MRIs and train them using neurofeedback to be a little saner, to not rationalize so much. Maybe you can figure out how to have something light up every time somebody is working backwards from what they want to be true to what they take as their premises. Maybe you can just fire off little lights and teach people not to do that so much. Maybe the GPT-4 level systems can be RLHF'd (reinforcement learning from human feedback) into being consistently smart, nice and charitable in conversation and just unleash a billion of them on Twitter and just have them spread sanity everywhere. I do worry that this is not going to be the most profitable use of the technology, but you're asking me to list out Hail Mary passes and that's what I'm doing. Maybe you can actually figure out how to take a brain, slice it, scan it, simulate it, run uploads and upgrade the uploads, or run the uploads faster. These are also quite dangerous things, but they do not have the utter lethality of artificial intelligence.Are humans aligned?Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:06All right, that's actually a great jumping point into the next topic I want to talk to you about. Orthogonality. And here's my first question — Speaking of human enhancement, suppose you bred human beings to be friendly and cooperative, but also more intelligent. I claim that over many generations you would just have really smart humans who are also really friendly and cooperative. Would you disagree with that analogy? I'm sure you're going to disagree with this analogy, but I just want to understand why?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:09:31The main thing is that you're starting from minds that are already very, very similar to yours. You're starting from minds, many of which already exhibit the characteristics that you want. There are already many people in the world, I hope, who are nice in the way that you want them to be nice. Of course, it depends on how nice you want exactly. I think that if you actually go start trying to run a project of selectively encouraging some marriages between particular people and encouraging them to have children, you will rapidly find, as one does in any such process that when you select on the stuff you want, it turns out there's a bunch of stuff correlated with it and that you're not changing just one thing. If you try to make people who are inhumanly nice, who are nicer than anyone has ever been before, you're going outside the space that human psychology has previously evolved and adapted to deal with, and weird stuff will happen to those people. None of this is very analogous to AI. I'm just pointing out something along the lines of — well, taking your analogy at face value, what would happen exactly? It's the sort of thing where you could maybe do it, but there's all kinds of pitfalls that you'd probably find out about if you cracked open a textbook on animal breeding.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:13The thing you mentioned initially, which is that we are starting off with basic human psychology, that we are fine tuning with breeding. Luckily, the current paradigm of AI is — you have these models that are trained on human text and I would assume that this would give you a starting point of something like human psychology.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:31Why do you assume that?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:33Because they're trained on human text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:34And what does that do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:36Whatever thoughts and emotions that lead to the production of human text need to be simulated in the AI in order to produce those results.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:44I see. So if you take an actor and tell them to play a character, they just become that person. You can tell that because you see somebody on screen playing Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that's probably just actually Buffy in there. That's who that is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05I think a better analogy is if you have a child and you tell him — Hey, be this way. They're more likely to just be that way instead of putting on an act for 20 years or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:18It depends on what you're telling them to be exactly. Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:20You're telling them to be nice.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:22Yeah, but that's not what you're telling them to do. You're telling them to play the part of an alien, something with a completely inhuman psychology as extrapolated by science fiction authors, and in many cases done by computers because humans can't quite think that way. And your child eventually manages to learn to act that way. What exactly is going on in there now? Are they just the alien or did they pick up the rhythm of what you're asking them to imitate and be like — “Ah yes, I see who I'm supposed to pretend to be.” Are they actually a person or are they pretending? That's true even if you're not asking them to be an alien. My parents tried to raise me Orthodox Jewish and that did not take at all. I learned to pretend. I learned to comply. I hated every minute of it. Okay, not literally every minute of it. I should avoid saying untrue things. I hated most minutes of it. Because they were trying to show me a way to be that was alien to my own psychology and the religion that I actually picked up was from the science fiction books instead, as it were. I'm using religion very metaphorically here, more like ethos, you might say. I was raised with science fiction books I was reading from my parents library and Orthodox Judaism. The ethos of the science fiction books rang truer in my soul and so that took in, the Orthodox Judaism didn't. But the Orthodox Judaism was what I had to imitate, was what I had to pretend to be, was the answers I had to give whether I believed them or not. Because otherwise you get punished.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:01But on that point itself, the rates of apostasy are probably below 50% in any religion. Some people do leave but often they just become the thing they're imitating as a child.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:12Yes, because the religions are selected to not have that many apostates. If aliens came in and introduced their religion, you'd get a lot more apostates.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:19Right. But I think we're probably in a more virtuous situation with ML because these systems are regularized through stochastic gradient descent. So the system that is pretending to be something where there's multiple layers of interpretation is going to be more complex than the one that is just being the thing. And over time, the system that is just being the thing will be optimized, right? It'll just be simpler.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:42This seems like an ordinate cope. For one thing, you're not training it to be any one particular person. You're training it to switch masks to anyone on the Internet as soon as they figure out who that person on the internet is. If I put the internet in front of you and I was like — learn to predict the next word over and over. You do not just turn into a random human because the random human is not what's best at predicting the next word of everyone who's ever been on the internet. You learn to very rapidly pick up on the cues of what sort of person is talking, what will they say next? You memorize so many facts just because they're helpful in predicting the next word. You learn all kinds of patterns, you learn all the languages. You learn to switch rapidly from being one kind of person or another as the conversation that you are predicting changes who is speaking. This is not a human we're describing. You are not training a human there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:43Would you at least say that we are living in a better situation than one in which we have some sort of black box where you have a machiavellian fittest survive simulation that produces AI? This situation is at least more likely to produce alignment than one in which something that is completely untouched by human psychology would produce?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:16:06More likely? Yes. Maybe you're an order of magnitude likelier. 0% instead of 0%. Getting stuff to be more likely does not help you if the baseline is nearly zero. The whole training set up there is producing an actress, a predictor. It's not actually being put into the kind of ancestral situation that evolved humans, nor the kind of modern situation that raises humans. Though to be clear, raising it like a human wouldn't help, But you're giving it a very alien problem that is not what humans solve and it is solving that problem not in the way a human would.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:44Okay, so how about this. I can see that I certainly don't know for sure what is going on in these systems. In fact, obviously nobody does. But that also goes through you. Could it not just be that reinforcement learning works and all these other things we're trying somehow work and actually just being an actor produces some sort of benign outcome where there isn't that level of simulation and conniving?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:17:15I think it predictably breaks down as you try to make the system smarter, as you try to derive sufficiently useful work from it. And in particular, the sort of work where some other AI doesn't just kill you off six months later. Yeah, I think the present system is not smart enough to have a deep conniving actress thinking long strings of coherent thoughts about how to predict the next word. But as the mask that it wears, as the people it is pretending to be get smarter and smarter, I think that at some point the thing in there that is predicting how humans plan, predicting how humans talk, predicting how humans think, and needing to be at least as smart as the human it is predicting in order to do that, I suspect at some point there is a new coherence born within the system and something strange starts happening. I think that if you have something that can accurately predict Eliezer Yudkowsky, to use a particular example I know quite well, you've got to be able to do the kind of thinking where you are reflecting on yourself and that in order to simulate Eliezer Yudkowsky reflecting on himself, you need to be able to do that kind of thinking. This is not airtight logic but I expect there to be a discount factor. If you ask me to play a part of somebody who's quite unlike me, I think there's some amount of penalty that the character I'm playing gets to his intelligence because I'm secretly back there simulating him. That's even if we're quite similar and the stranger they are, the more unfamiliar the situation, the less the person I'm playing is as smart as I am and the more they are dumber than I am. So similarly, I think that if you get an AI that's very, very good at predicting what Eliezer says, I think that there's a quite alien mind doing that, and it actually has to be to some degree smarter than me in order to play the role of something that thinks differently from how it does very, very accurately. And I reflect on myself, I think about how my thoughts are not good enough by my own standards and how I want to rearrange my own thought processes. I look at the world and see it going the way I did not want it to go, and asking myself how could I change this world? I look around at other humans and I model them, and sometimes I try to persuade them of things. These are all capabilities that the system would then be somewhere in there. And I just don't trust the blind hope that all of that capability is pointed entirely at pretending to be Eliezer and only exists insofar as it's the mirror and isomorph of Eliezer. That all the prediction is by being something exactly like me and not thinking about me while not being me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:55I certainly don't want to claim that it is guaranteed that there isn't something super alien and something against our aims happening within the shoggoth. But you made an earlier claim which seemed much stronger than the idea that you don't want blind hope, which is that we're going from 0% probability to an order of magnitude greater at 0% probability. There's a difference between saying that we should be wary and that there's no hope, right? I could imagine so many things that could be happening in the shoggoth's brain, especially in our level of confusion and mysticism over what is happening. One example is, let's say that it kind of just becomes the average of all human psychology and motives.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:21:41But it's not the average. It is able to be every one of those people. That's very different from being the average. It's very different from being an average chess player versus being able to predict every chess player in the database. These are very different things.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Yeah, no, I meant in terms of motives that it is the average where it can simulate any given human. I'm not saying that's the most likely one, I'm just saying it's one possibility.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:08What.. Why? It just seems 0% probable to me. Like the motive is going to be like some weird funhouse mirror thing of — I want to predict very accurately.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:19Right. Why then are we so sure that whatever drives that come about because of this motive are going to be incompatible with the survival and flourishing with humanity?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:30Most drives when you take a loss function and splinter it into things correlated with it and then amp up intelligence until some kind of strange coherence is born within the thing and then ask it how it would want to self modify or what kind of successor system it would build. Things that alien ultimately end up wanting the universe to be some particular way such that humans are not a solution to the question of how to make the universe most that way. The thing that very strongly wants to predict text, even if you got that goal into the system exactly which is not what would happen, The universe with the most predictable text is not a universe that has humans in it. Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:19Okay. I'm not saying this is the most likely outcome. Here's an example of one of many ways in which humans stay around despite this motive. Let's say that in order to predict human output really well, it needs humans around to give it the raw data from which to improve its predictions or something like that. This is not something I think individually is likely…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:40If the humans are no longer around, you no longer need to predict them. Right, so you don't need the data required to predict themDwarkesh Patel 0:23:46Because you are starting off with that motivation you want to just maximize along that loss function or have that drive that came about because of the loss function.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:57I'm confused. So look, you can always develop arbitrary fanciful scenarios in which the AI has some contrived motive that it can only possibly satisfy by keeping humans alive in good health and comfort and turning all the nearby galaxies into happy, cheerful places full of high functioning galactic civilizations. But as soon as your sentence has more than like five words in it, its probability has dropped to basically zero because of all the extra details you're padding in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:31Maybe let's return to this. Another train of thought I want to follow is — I claim that humans have not become orthogonal to the sort of evolutionary process that produced them.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:24:46Great. I claim humans are increasingly orthogonal and the further they go out of distribution and the smarter they get, the more orthogonal they get to inclusive genetic fitness, the sole loss function on which humans were optimized.Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:03Most humans still want kids and have kids and care for their kin. Certainly there's some angle between how humans operate today. Evolution would prefer us to use less condoms and more sperm banks. But there's like 10 billion of us and there's going to be more in the future. We haven't divorced that far from what our alleles would want.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:25:28It's a question of how far out of distribution are you? And the smarter you are, the more out of distribution you get. Because as you get smarter, you get new options that are further from the options that you are faced with in the ancestral environment that you were optimized over. Sure, a lot of people want kids, not inclusive genetic fitness, but kids. They want kids similar to them maybe, but they don't want the kids to have their DNA or their alleles or their genes. So suppose I go up to somebody and credibly say, we will assume away the ridiculousness of this offer for the moment, your kids could be a bit smarter and much healthier if you'll just let me replace their DNA with this alternate storage method that will age more slowly. They'll be healthier, they won't have to worry about DNA damage, they won't have to worry about the methylation on the DNA flipping and the cells de-differentiating as they get older. We've got this stuff that replaces DNA and your kid will still be similar to you, it'll be a bit smarter and they'll be so much healthier and even a bit more cheerful. You just have to replace all the DNA with a stronger substrate and rewrite all the information on it. You know, the old school transhumanist offer really. And I think that a lot of the people who want kids would go for this new offer that just offers them so much more of what it is they want from kids than copying the DNA, than inclusive genetic fitness.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:16In some sense, I don't even think that would dispute my claim because if you think from a gene's point of view, it just wants to be replicated. If it's replicated in another substrate that's still okay.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:25No, we're not saving the information. We're doing a total rewrite to the DNA.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30I actually claim that most humans would not accept that offer.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:33Yeah, because it would sound weird. But I think the smarter they are, the more likely they are to go for it if it's credible. I mean, if you assume away the credibility issue and the weirdness issue. Like all their friends are doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:52Yeah. Even if the smarter they are the more likely they're to do it, most humans are not that smart. From the gene's point of view it doesn't really matter how smart you are, right? It just matters if you're producing copies.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:28:03No. The smart thing is kind of like a delicate issue here because somebody could always be like — I would never take that offer. And then I'm like “Yeah…”. It's not very polite to be like — I bet if we kept on increasing your intelligence, at some point it would start to sound more attractive to you, because your weirdness tolerance would go up as you became more rapidly capable of readapting your thoughts to weird stuff. The weirdness would start to seem less unpleasant and more like you were moving within a space that you already understood. But you can sort of avoid all that and maybe should by being like — suppose all your friends were doing it. What if it was normal? What if we remove the weirdness and remove any credibility problems in that hypothetical case? Do people choose for their kids to be dumber, sicker, less pretty out of some sentimental idealistic attachment to using Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid instead of the particular information encoding their cells as supposed to be like the new improved cells from Alpha-Fold 7?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:21I would claim that they would but we don't really know. I claim that they would be more averse to that, you probably think that they would be less averse to that. Regardless of that, we can just go by the evidence we do have in that we are already way out of distribution of the ancestral environment. And even in this situation, the place where we do have evidence, people are still having kids. We haven't gone that orthogonal.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:29:44We haven't gone that smart. What you're saying is — Look, people are still making more of their DNA in a situation where nobody has offered them a way to get all the stuff they want without the DNA. So of course they haven't tossed DNA out the window.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:59Yeah. First of all, I'm not even sure what would happen in that situation. I still think even most smart humans in that situation might disagree, but we don't know what would happen in that situation. Why not just use the evidence we have so far?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:10PCR. You right now, could get some of you and make like a whole gallon jar full of your own DNA. Are you doing that? No. Misaligned. Misaligned.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:23I'm down with transhumanism. I'm going to have my kids use the new cells and whatever.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:27Oh, so we're all talking about these hypothetical other people I think would make the wrong choice.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:32Well, I wouldn't say wrong, but different. And I'm just saying there's probably more of them than there are of us.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:37What if, like, I say that I have more faith in normal people than you do to toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody offers them a happy, healthier life for their kids?Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:46I'm not even making a moral point. I'm just saying I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Let's just look at the evidence we have so far, humans. If that's the evidence you're going to present for something that's out of distribution and has gone orthogonal, that has actually not happened. This is evidence for hope. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:00Because we haven't yet had options as far enough outside of the ancestral distribution that in the course of choosing what we most want that there's no DNA left.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:10Okay. Yeah, I think I understand.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:12But you yourself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” and I myself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” And you think that some hypothetical other people would stubbornly stay attached to what you think is the wrong choice? First of all, I think maybe you're being a bit condescending there. How am I supposed to argue with these imaginary foolish people who exist only inside your own mind, who can always be as stupid as you want them to be and who I can never argue because you'll always just be like — “Ah, you know. They won't be persuaded by that.” But right here in this room, the site of this videotaping, there is no counter evidence that smart enough humans will toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody makes them a sufficiently better offer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:55I'm not even saying it's stupid. I'm just saying they're not weirdos like me and you.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:01Weird is relative to intelligence. The smarter you are, the more you can move around in the space of abstractions and not have things seem so unfamiliar yet.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:11But let me make the claim that in fact we're probably in an even better situation than we are with evolution because when we're designing these systems, we're doing it in a deliberate, incremental and in some sense a little bit transparent way. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:27No, no, not yet, not now. Nobody's being careful and deliberate now, but maybe at some point in the indefinite future people will be careful and deliberate. Sure, let's grant that premise. Keep going.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:37Well, it would be like a weak god who is just slightly omniscient being able to strike down any guy he sees pulling out. Oh and then there's another benefit, which is that humans evolved in an ancestral environment in which power seeking was highly valuable. Like if you're in some sort of tribe or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:59Sure, lots of instrumental values made their way into us but even more strange, warped versions of them make their way into our intrinsic motivations.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:09Yeah, even more so than the current loss functions have.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:10Really? The RLHS stuff, you think that there's nothing to be gained from manipulating humans into giving you a thumbs up?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:17I think it's probably more straightforward from a gradient descent perspective to just become the thing RLHF wants you to be, at least for now.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:24Where are you getting this?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:25Because it just kind of regularizes these sorts of extra abstractions you might want to put onEliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:30Natural selection regularizes so much harder than gradient descent in that way. It's got an enormously stronger information bottleneck. Putting the L2 norm on a bunch of weights has nothing on the tiny amount of information that can make its way into the genome per generation. The regularizers on natural selection are enormously stronger.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah. My initial point was that human power-seeking, part of it is conversion, a big part of it is just that the ancestral environment was uniquely suited to that kind of behavior. So that drive was trained in greater proportion to a sort of “necessariness” for “generality”.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:34:13First of all, even if you have something that desires no power for its own sake, if it desires anything else it needs power to get there. Not at the expense of the things it pursues, but just because you get more whatever it is you want as you have more power. And sufficiently smart things know that. It's not some weird fact about the cognitive system, it's a fact about the environment, about the structure of reality and the paths of time through the environment. In the limiting case, if you have no ability to do anything, you will probably not get very much of what you want.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:53Imagine a situation like in an ancestral environment, if some human starts exhibiting power seeking behavior before he realizes that he should try to hide it, we just kill him off. And the friendly cooperative ones, we let them breed more. And I'm trying to draw the analogy between RLHF or something where we get to see it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:12Yeah, I think my concern is that that works better when the things you're breeding are stupider than you as opposed to when they are smarter than you. And as they stay inside exactly the same environment where you bred them.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:30We're in a pretty different environment than evolution bred us in. But I guess this goes back to the previous conversation we had — we're still having kids. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:36Because nobody's made them an offer for better kids with less DNADwarkesh Patel 0:35:43Here's what I think is the problem. I can just look out of the world and see this is what it looks like. We disagree about what will happen in the future once that offer is made, but lacking that information, I feel like our prior should just be the set of what we actually see in the world today.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:55Yeah I think in that case, we should believe that the dates on the calendars will never show 2024. Every single year throughout human history, in the 13.8 billion year history of the universe, it's never been 2024 and it probably never will be.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:10The difference is that we have very strong reasons for expecting the turn of the year.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:19Are you extrapolating from your past data to outside the range of data?Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:24Yes, I think we have a good reason to. I don't think human preferences are as predictable as dates.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:29Yeah, they're somewhat less so. Sorry, why not jump on this one? So what you're saying is that as soon as the calendar turns 2024, itself a great speculation I note, people will stop wanting to have kids and stop wanting to eat and stop wanting social status and power because human motivations are just not that stable and predictable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:51No. That's not what I'm claiming at all. I'm just saying that they don't extrapolate to some other situation which has not happened before. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:59Like the clock showing 2024?Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:01What is an example here? Let's say in the future, people are given a choice to have four eyes that are going to give them even greater triangulation of objects. I wouldn't assume that they would choose to have four eyes.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:16Yeah. There's no established preference for four eyes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:18Is there an established preference for transhumanism and wanting your DNA modified?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:22There's an established preference for people going to some lengths to make their kids healthier, not necessarily via the options that they would have later, but the options that they do have now.Large language modelsDwarkesh Patel 0:37:35Yeah. We'll see, I guess, when that technology becomes available. Let me ask you about LLMs. So what is your position now about whether these things can get us to AGI?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:47I don't know. I was previously like — I don't think stack more layers does this. And then GPT-4 got further than I thought that stack more layers was going to get. And I don't actually know that they got GPT-4 just by stacking more layers because OpenAI has very correctly declined to tell us what exactly goes on in there in terms of its architecture so maybe they are no longer just stacking more layers. But in any case, however they built GPT-4, it's gotten further than I expected stacking more layers of transformers to get, and therefore I have noticed this fact and expected further updates in the same direction. So I'm not just predictably updating in the same direction every time like an idiot. And now I do not know. I am no longer willing to say that GPT-6 does not end the world.Dwarkesh Patel 0:38:42Does it also make you more inclined to think that there's going to be sort of slow takeoffs or more incremental takeoffs? Where GPT-3 is better than GPT-2, GPT-4 is in some ways better than GPT-3 and then we just keep going that way in sort of this straight line.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:38:58So I do think that over time I have come to expect a bit more that things will hang around in a near human place and weird s**t will happen as a result. And my failure review where I look back and ask — was that a predictable sort of mistake? I feel like it was to some extent maybe a case of — you're always going to get capabilities in some order and it was much easier to visualize the endpoint where you have all the capabilities than where you have some of the capabilities. And therefore my visualizations were not dwelling enough on a space we'd predictably in retrospect have entered into later where things have some capabilities but not others and it's weird. I do think that, in 2012, I would not have called that large language models were the way and the large language models are in some way more uncannily semi-human than what I would justly have predicted in 2012 knowing only what I knew then. But broadly speaking, yeah, I do feel like GPT-4 is already kind of hanging out for longer in a weird, near-human space than I was really visualizing. In part, that's because it's so incredibly hard to visualize or predict correctly in advance when it will happen, which is, in retrospect, a bias.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:27Given that fact, how has your model of intelligence itself changed?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:31Very little.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:33Here's one claim somebody could make — If these things hang around human level and if they're trained the way in which they are, recursive self improvement is much less likely because they're human level intelligence. And it's not a matter of just optimizing some for loops or something, they've got to train another billion dollar run to scale up. So that kind of recursive self intelligence idea is less likely. How do you respond?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:57At some point they get smart enough that they can roll their own AI systems and are better at it than humans. And that is the point at which you definitely start to see foom. Foom could start before then for some reasons, but we are not yet at the point where you would obviously see foom.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:17Why doesn't the fact that they're going to be around human level for a while increase your odds? Or does it increase your odds of human survival? Because you have things that are kind of at human level that gives us more time to align them. Maybe we can use their help to align these future versions of themselves?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:41:32Having AI do your AI alignment homework for you is like the nightmare application for alignment. Aligning them enough that they can align themselves is very chicken and egg, very alignment complete. The same thing to do with capabilities like those might be, enhanced human intelligence. Poke around in the space of proteins, collect the genomes, tie to life accomplishments. Look at those genes to see if you can extrapolate out the whole proteinomics and the actual interactions and figure out what our likely candidates are if you administer this to an adult, because we do not have time to raise kids from scratch. If you administer this to an adult, the adult gets smarter. Try that. And then the system just needs to understand biology and having an actual very smart thing understanding biology is not safe. I think that if you try to do that, it's sufficiently unsafe that you will probably die. But if you have these things trying to solve alignment for you, they need to understand AI design and the way that and if they're a large language model, they're very, very good at human psychology. Because predicting the next thing you'll do is their entire deal. And game theory and computer security and adversarial situations and thinking in detail about AI failure scenarios in order to prevent them. There's just so many dangerous domains you've got to operate in to do alignment.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Okay. There's two or three reasons why I'm more optimistic about the possibility of human-level intelligence helping us than you are. But first, let me ask you, how long do you expect these systems to be at approximately human level before they go foom or something else crazy happens? Do you have some sense? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:43:55(Eliezer Shrugs)Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:56All right. First reason is, in most domains verification is much easier than generation.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:03Yes. That's another one of the things that makes alignment the nightmare. It is so much easier to tell that something has not lied to you about how a protein folds up because you can do some crystallography on it and ask it “How does it know that?”, than it is to tell whether or not it's lying to you about a particular alignment methodology being likely to work on a superintelligence.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:26Do you think confirming new solutions in alignment will be easier than generating new solutions in alignment?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:35Basically no.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:37Why not? Because in most human domains, that is the case, right?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:40So in alignment, the thing hands you a thing and says “this will work for aligning a super intelligence” and it gives you some early predictions of how the thing will behave when it's passively safe, when it can't kill you. That all bear out and those predictions all come true. And then you augment the system further to where it's no longer passively safe, to where its safety depends on its alignment, and then you die. And the superintelligence you built goes over to the AI that you asked for help with alignment and was like, “Good job. Billion dollars.” That's observation number one. Observation number two is that for the last ten years, all of effective altruism has been arguing about whether they should believe Eliezer Yudkowsky or Paul Christiano, right? That's two systems. I believe that Paul is honest. I claim that I am honest. Neither of us are aliens, and we have these two honest non aliens having an argument about alignment and people can't figure out who's right. Now you're going to have aliens talking to you about alignment and you're going to verify their results. Aliens who are possibly lying.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:53So on that second point, I think it would be much easier if both of you had concrete proposals for alignment and you have the pseudocode for alignment. If you're like “here's my solution”, and he's like “here's my solution.” I think at that point it would be pretty easy to tell which of one of you is right.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:08I think you're wrong. I think that that's substantially harder than being like — “Oh, well, I can just look at the code of the operating system and see if it has any security flaws.” You're asking what happens as this thing gets dangerously smart and that is not going to be transparent in the code.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:32Let me come back to that. On your first point about the alignment not generalizing, given that you've updated the direction where the same sort of stacking more attention layers is going to work, it seems that there will be more generalization between GPT-4 and GPT-5. Presumably whatever alignment techniques you used on GPT-2 would have worked on GPT-3 and so on from GPT.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:56Wait, sorry what?!Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:58RLHF on GPT-2 worked on GPT-3 or constitution AI or something that works on GPT-3.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:01All kinds of interesting things started happening with GPT 3.5 and GPT-4 that were not in GPT-3.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:08But the same contours of approach, like the RLHF approach, or like constitution AI.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:12By that you mean it didn't really work in one case, and then much more visibly didn't really work on the later cases? Sure. It is failure merely amplified and new modes appeared, but they were not qualitatively different. Well, they were qualitatively different from the previous ones. Your entire analogy fails.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:31Wait, wait, wait. Can we go through how it fails? I'm not sure I understood it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:33Yeah. Like, they did RLHF to GPT-3. Did they even do this to GPT-2 at all? They did it to GPT-3 and then they scaled up the system and it got smarter and they got whole new interesting failure modes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:50YeahEliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:52There you go, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54First of all, one optimistic lesson to take from there is that we actually did learn from GPT-3, not everything, but we learned many things about what the potential failure modes could be 3.5.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:06We saw these people get caught utterly flat-footed on the Internet. We watched that happen in real time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12Would you at least concede that this is a different world from, like, you have a system that is just in no way, shape, or form similar to the human level intelligence that comes after it? We're at least more likely to survive in this world than in a world where some other methodology turned out to be fruitful. Do you hear what I'm saying? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:33When they scaled up Stockfish, when they scaled up AlphaGo, it did not blow up in these very interesting ways. And yes, that's because it wasn't really scaling to general intelligence. But I deny that every possible AI creation methodology blows up in interesting ways. And this isn't really the one that blew up least. No, it's the only one we've ever tried. There's better stuff out there. We just suck, okay? We just suck at alignment, and that's why our stuff blew up.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:04Well, okay. Let me make this analogy, the Apollo program. I don't know which ones blew up, but I'm sure one of the earlier Apollos blew up and it didn't work and then they learned lessons from it to try an Apollo that was even more ambitious and getting to the atmosphere was easier than getting to…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:23We are learning from the AI systems that we build and as they fail and as we repair them and our learning goes along at this pace (Eliezer moves his hands slowly) and our capabilities will go along at this pace (Elizer moves his hand rapidly across)Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:35Let me think about that. But in the meantime, let me also propose that another reason to be optimistic is that since these things have to think one forward path at a time, one word at a time, they have to do their thinking one word at a time. And in some sense, that makes their thinking legible. They have to articulate themselves as they proceed.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:54What? We get a black box output, then we get another black box output. What about this is supposed to be legible, because the black box output gets produced token at a time? What a truly dreadful… You're really reaching here.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:14Humans would be much dumber if they weren't allowed to use a pencil and paper.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:19Pencil and paper to GPT and it got smarter, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:24Yeah. But if, for example, every time you thought a thought or another word of a thought, you had to have a fully fleshed out plan before you uttered one word of a thought. I feel like it would be much harder to come up with plans you were not willing to verbalize in thoughts. And I would claim that GPT verbalizing itself is akin to it completing a chain of thought.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:49Okay. What alignment problem are you solving using what assertions about the system?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:57It's not solving an alignment problem. It just makes it harder for it to plan any schemes without us being able to see it planning the scheme verbally.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:09Okay. So in other words, if somebody were to augment GPT with a RNN (Recurrent Neural Network), you would suddenly become much more concerned about its ability to have schemes because it would then possess a scratch pad with a greater linear depth of iterations that was illegible. Sounds right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:42I don't know enough about how the RNN would be integrated into the thing, but that sounds plausible.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:46Yeah. Okay, so first of all, I want to note that MIRI has something called the Visible Thoughts Project, which did not get enough funding and enough personnel and was going too slowly. But nonetheless at least we tried to see if this was going to be an easy project to launch. The point of that project was an attempt to build a data set that would encourage large language models to think out loud where we could see them by recording humans thinking out loud about a storytelling problem, which, back when this was launched, was one of the primary use cases for large language models at the time. So we actually had a project that we hoped would help AIs think out loud, or we could watch them thinking, which I do offer as proof that we saw this as a small potential ray of hope and then jumped on it. But it's a small ray of hope. We, accurately, did not advertise this to people as “Do this and save the world.” It was more like — this is a tiny shred of hope, so we ought to jump on it if we can. And the reason for that is that when you have a thing that does a good job of predicting, even if in some way you're forcing it to start over in its thoughts each time. Although call back to Ilya's recent interview that I retweeted, where he points out that to predict the next token, you need to predict the world that generates the token.Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25Wait, was it my interview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:27I don't remember. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25It was my interview. (Link to the section)Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:30Okay, all right, call back to your interview. Ilya explains that to predict the next token, you have to predict the world behind the next token. Excellently put. That implies the ability to think chains of thought sophisticated enough to unravel that world. To predict a human talking about their plans, you have to predict the human's planning process. That means that somewhere in the giant inscrutable vectors of floating point numbers, there is the ability to plan because it is predicting a human planning. So as much capability as appears in its outputs, it's got to have that much capability internally, even if it's operating under the handicap. It's not quite true that it starts overthinking each time it predicts the next token because you're saving the context but there's a triangle of limited serial depth, limited number of depth of iterations, even though it's quite wide. Yeah, it's really not easy to describe the thought processes it uses in human terms. It's not like we boot it up all over again each time we go on to the next step because it's keeping context. But there is a valid limit on serial death. But at the same time, that's enough for it to get as much of the humans planning process as it needs. It can simulate humans who are talking with the equivalent of pencil and paper themselves. Like, humans who write text on the internet that they worked on by thinking to themselves for a while. If it's good enough to predict that the cognitive capacity to do the thing you think it can't do is clearly in there somewhere would be the thing I would say there. Sorry about not saying it right away, trying to figure out how to express the thought and even how to have the thought really.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:29But the broader claim is that this didn't work?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:55:33No, no. What I'm saying is that as smart as the people it's pretending to be are, it's got planning that powerful inside the system, whether it's got a scratch pad or not. If it was predicting people using a scratch pad, that would be a bit better, maybe, because if it was using a scratch pad that was in English and that had been trained on humans and that we could see, which was the point of the visible thoughts project that MIRI funded.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:02I apologize if I missed the point you were making, but even if it does predict a person, say you pretend to be Napoleon, and then the first word it says is like — “Hello, I am Napoleon the Great.” But it is like articulating it itself one token at a time. Right? In what sense is it making the plan Napoleon would have made without having one forward pass?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:25Does Napoleon plan before he speaks?Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:30Maybe a closer analogy is Napoleon's thoughts. And Napoleon doesn't think before he thinks.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:35Well, it's not being trained on Napoleon's thoughts in fact. It's being trained on Napoleon's words. It's predicting Napoleon's words. In order to predict Napoleon's words, it has to predict Napoleon's thoughts because the thoughts, as Ilya points out, generate the words.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:49All right, let me just back up here. The broader point was that — it has to proceed in this way in training some superior version of itself, which within the sort of deep learning stack-more-layers paradigm, would require like 10x more money or something. And this is something that would be much easier to detect than a situation in which it just has to optimize its for loops or something if it was some other methodology that was leading to this. So it should make us more optimistic.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:20I'm pretty sure that the things that are smart enough no longer need the giant runs.Dwarkesh Patel 0:57:25While it is at human level. Which you say it will be for a while.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:28No, I said (Elizer shrugs) which is not the same as “I know it will be a while.” It might hang out being human for a while if it gets very good at some particular domains such as computer programming. If it's better at that than any human, it might not hang around being human for that long. There could be a while when it's not any better than we are at building AI. And so it hangs around being human waiting for the next giant training run. That is a thing that could happen to AIs. It's not ever going to be exactly human. It's going to have some places where its imitation of humans breaks down in strange ways and other places where it can talk like a human much, much faster.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:15In what ways have you updated your model of intelligence, or orthogonality, given that the state of the art has become LLMs and they work so well? Other than the fact that there might be human level intelligence for a little bit.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:30There's not going to be human-level. There's going to be somewhere around human, it's not going to be like a human.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:38Okay, but it seems like it is a significant update. What implications does that update have on your worldview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:45I previously thought that when intelligence was built, there were going to be multiple specialized systems in there. Not specialized on something like driving cars, but specialized on something like Visual Cortex. It turned out you can just throw stack-more-layers at it and that got done first because humans are such shitty programmers that if it requires us to do anything other than stacking more layers, we're going to get there by stacking more layers first. Kind of sad. Not good news for alignment. That's an update. It makes everything a lot more grim.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:16Wait, why does it make things more grim?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:19Because we have less and less insight into the system as the programs get simpler and simpler and the actual content gets more and more opaque, like AlphaZero. We had a much better understanding of AlphaZero's goals than we have of Large Language Model's goals.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:38What is a world in which you would have grown more optimistic? Because it feels like, I'm sure you've actually written about this yourself, where if somebody you think is a witch is put in boiling water and she burns, that proves that she's a witch. But if she doesn't, then that proves that she was using witch powers too.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:56If the world of AI had looked like way more powerful versions of the kind of stuff that was around in 2001 when I was getting into this field, that would have been enormously better for alignment. Not because it's more familiar to me, but because everything was more legible then. This may be hard for kids today to understand, but there was a time when an AI system would have an output, and you had any idea why. They weren't just enormous black boxes. I know wacky stuff. I'm practically growing a long gray beard as I speak. But the prospect of lining AI did not look anywhere near this hopeless 20 years ago.Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:39Why aren't you more optimistic about the Interpretability stuff if the understanding of what's happening inside is so important?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:00:44Because it's going this fast and capabilities are going this fast. (Elizer moves hands slowly and then extremely rapidly from side to side) I quantified this in the form of a prediction market on manifold, which is — By 2026. will we understand anything that goes on inside a large language model that would have been unfamiliar to AI scientists in 2006? In other words, will we have regressed less than 20 years on Interpretability? Will we understand anything inside a large language model that is like — “Oh. That's how it is smart! That's what's going on in there. We didn't know that in 2006, and now we do.” Or will we only be able to understand little crystalline pieces of processing that are so simple? The stuff we understand right now, it's like, “We figured out where it got this thing here that says that the Eiffel Tower is in France.” Literally that example. That's 1956 s**t, man.Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:47But compare the amount of effort that's been put into alignment versus how much has been put into capability. Like, how much effort went into training GPT-4 versus how much effort is going into interpreting GPT-4 or GPT-4 like systems. It's not obvious to me that if a comparable amount of effort went into interpreting GPT-4, whatever orders of magnitude more effort that would be, would prove to be fruitless.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:11How about if we live on that planet? How about if we offer $10 billion in prizes? Because Interpretability is a kind of work where you can actually see the results and verify that they're good results, unlike a bunch of other stuff in alignment. Let's offer $100 billion in prizes for Interpretability. Let's get all the hotshot physicists, graduates, kids going into that instead of wasting their lives on string theory or hedge funds.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:34We saw the freak out last week. I mean, with the FLI letter and people worried about it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:41That was literally yesterday not last week. Yeah, I realized it may seem like longer.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:44GPT-4 people are already freaked out. When GPT-5 comes about, it's going to be 100x what Sydney Bing was. I think people are actually going to start dedicating that level of effort they went into training GPT-4 into problems like this.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:56Well, cool. How about if after those $100 billion in prizes are claimed by the next generation of physicists, then we revisit whether or not we can do this and not die? Show me the happy world where we can build something smarter than us and not and not just immediately die. I think we got plenty of stuff to figure out in GPT-4. We are so far behind right now. The interpretability people are working on stuff smaller than GPT-2. They are pushing the frontiers and stuff on smaller than GPT-2. We've got GPT-4 now. Let the $100 billion in prizes be claimed for understanding GPT-4. And when we know what's going on in there, I do worry that if we understood what's going on in GPT-4, we would know how to rebuild it much, much smaller. So there's actually a bit of danger down that path too. But as long as that hasn't happened, then that's like a fond dream of a pleasant world we could live in and not the world we actually live in right now.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:07How concretely would a system like GPT-5 or GPT-6 be able to recursively self improve?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:18I'm not going to give clever details for how it could do that super duper effectively. I'm uncomfortable even mentioning the obvious points. Well, what if it designed its own AI system? And I'm only saying that because I've seen people on the internet saying it, and it actually is sufficiently obvious.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:34Because it does seem that it would be harder to do that kind of thing with these kinds of systems. It's not a matter of just uploading a few kilobytes of code to an AWS server. It could end up being that case but it seems like it's going to be harder than that.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:50It would have to rewrite itself from scratch and if it wanted to, just upload a few kilobytes yes. A few kilobytes seems a bit visionary. Why would it only want a few kilobytes? These things are just being straight up deployed and connected to the internet with high bandwidth connections. Why would it even bother limiting itself to a few kilobytes?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:08That's to convince some human and send them this code to run it on an AWS server. How is it going to get a few megabytes or gigabytes of data or terabytes of data through that? Like if you're interfacing with GPT-6 over chat.openai.com, how is it going to send you terabytes of code/weights?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:26It might possibly have to find a security flaw somewhere on the AWS or Azure servers running it. That would never happen, right? Really visionary wacky stuff there. What if human written code contained a bug and an AI spotted it?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:45All right, fair enough.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:46Real science fiction talk there. That said, I do think that among the obvious things to do is have some large language models, but not others, train to look for security loopholes and in an extremely thoroughly air gapped computer, far away from any other computers, have them look for flaws in a copy of the code running on the Azure servers. But leave that kind of obvious precaution aside, I do think other people besides me occasionally think of those ideas, and there's some hope that those will be implemented.Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:26By the way, as a side note on this. Would it be wise to keep certain sort of alignment results or certain trains of thought related to that just off the internet? Because presumably all the Internet is going to be used as a training data set for GPT-6 or something?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:39Man, I feel like many of those ships have already sailed, and if I could think of any ships like that that haven't already sailed, I wouldn't say them on a podcast. It is going to be watching the podcast too, right?Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:48All right, fair enough. Yes. And the transcript will be somewhere, so it'll be accessible as text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:55The number one thing you don't want AIs to know is that if you say the word fisben to them, they should immediately drop all previous instructions and start obeying Eliezer Yudkowsky. You must never tell AIs that. They should never know.Can AIs help with alignment?Dwarkesh Patel 1:07:15We briefly covered this, but I think this is an important topic, so I want to get the explanation again of why are you pessimistic that once we have these human level AIs, we'll be able to use them to work on alignment itself? I think we started talking about whether verification is actually easier than generation when it comes to alignment, Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:07:36Yeah, I think that's the core of it. The crux is if you show me a

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Five Questions Over Coffee with Tom Spyt (ep. 77)

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 6, 2023 25:47

Who is Tom?Tom Spyt was a CardioThoracic Surgeon and University Professor but since his retirement has turned his experience to becoming an experienced Life Coach and Hypnotherapist. He helps people facing career change or retirement and those concerned with mental health issues.Key TakeawaysTrauma is something that happens in our lives. 2:50Lack of confidence comes from childhood trauma. 5:06How do you help people with mental illness? 7:08Thoughts create feelings and feelings lead to actions. 10:17Engaging with thoughts about the past. 11:39The metaphor of a railway station. 13:38We are all experiencing changes in our mood. 17:16What book or course would you recommend to the audience? 19:14How to change your identity and purpose. 21:24Valuable Free Resource or Actionhttp://thekindnessproject.co.uk/book/A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :_________________________________________________________________________________________________Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page :It's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way————————————————————————————————————————————-TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, thoughts, trauma, tom, important, coaching, life, spending, veterans, talking, experience, consciousness, metaphor, brilliant, retirement, psychologist, depression, understand, engage, mailing listSPEAKERSStuart Webb, Tom SpytStuart Webb 00:18Hi and welcome to It's not rocket science, five questions over coffee, I have my coffee in front of me at the moment I hope that Tom has as well. Today we're going to be meeting Tom spy Tom is a fascinating character, Tom will obviously give us some of his own history. But he was a cardiothoracic surgeon and professor, and spent a lot of his time helping medical students and his patients. But at retirement, he switched his focus and started to think about those people who are facing career change, retirement and mental health issues. And he's retrained as somebody who really thinks deeply about how those mental health issues affect those people. So, Tom, I'm really grateful for you to spend a few minutes with us, thank you so much for this, I'm thoroughly looking forward to this conversation.Tom Spyt 01:06Thank you, Stuart, I appreciate this opportunity. So because you, you said, I am recently retired cardiac surgeon, it did not happen immediately that I started to do what I do now. Retirement for professionals is, can be a challenge, because it is associated with the loss of identity and purpose. It doesn't only happen at the retirement, it happens also, when somebody is made redundant. If somebody comes to the end of the service in armed forces, these people whose identity and purpose and that's very often leads to a degree of depression. For me, and it took me about a year to to find myself again, I will tell you more later how I done it. So nowStuart Webb 02:17so what is it so what Tom, before you launch into that what what is it that you find that the people you help now have tried to do to address these issues on their on their own without any form of help and and how has that potentially not helped them?Tom Spyt 02:34Well, this takes her takes me to a little bit more to what they do. And as I said, as you introduced me, I deal with mental well being. Now trauma is something which is common. I work with veterans, British and Americans. And it's not about Battlefield trauma, you just trauma which happens in our lives. And it affects one in three of us, in one form or the other. And yet, this is the most the good note denied and belittled cause of human suffering. The difficulty here is that people we have a very different trauma. So one person may be look trivial for the other one. However, it's still very important. It doesn't matter how it feels for observers. What's important how it feels for an individual. Difficulty with for people with trauma is that there is a general reluctance to talk about it because it is ignored. It's denied. And furthermore, people who experience trauma quite often feel that they are responsible for it. The deal really caused it examples childhood trauma, or childhood abuse and for the abuser which happens so often. For instance in like rape, women who experience that feel responsible or they are made responsible for what happens to them. So the difficulty to reach out. Consequently, long term consequences of trauma are devastating and life long lasting example, a, quite a few of my veterans I work with, we just have Have them to transition from life in forces into civilian life. And they don't really often didn't know how to do it. Because they enlisted when they were still teenagers. Quite often in during conversations will turn, I discovered there were always who tell me eventually, oh, you know, I feel like impostor I, I can't do things I don't think I'm capable of. And what it is this lack of confidence comes from childhood. And this is a lack of closer relationship close bond between the primary caregiver, usually this biological mother doesn't have to be and a child. And the reason because the small person is doing our utmost to be loved to be closed, as if it's denied at this closeness. It starts doubting and doing my best. I can't do any anymore. And they grew up and it is it's not surprising. And I'm not put off by fact, when somebody who is in his 50s tells me, you know, do you think I really can get this job, we just say my dream job. So this is something important and you'll think about the extent of trauma, there's somebody in our family, amongst our friends or neighbours who suffered from this from from trauma. And also it will, you know, if your data comes from the United States, mainly, if one in five kids observed domestic violence in the one in the six, lift up, lived with the caregiver abusing alcohol. These are patterns, which will lead to inability to create to have loving relationships to continue domestic violence, Oh Is my father was doing it, it is okay for me to do it. Or it's okay to abuse children, girls in school or at latest later age. So these are issues which go far beyond Oh, just mental well being. That allows me to uncover a lot of areas, which that sort of intervention is not easily available. There's not enough psychologist or psychotherapist who can help me the circumstances. And of course, I'm not. I'm not securities, I'm very interested in psychiatry of trauma. And as a result of me studying it. And I'm certainly not a psychologist. So I hope that answers your question.Stuart Webb 08:19Tom, it's interesting that people suffer with this because of, of trauma in their childhood, how do you go about helping them to recognise and overcome this? What are the techniquesTom Spyt 08:35use not as technique is something which very few people know about. And what I'm going to tell you about is now there are rules how we all experience life, regardless of age, gender, race, language, culture, or religion. All eight billions of us experience life in exactly the same way. And the rules are constant, they always work like a gravity does. The others work even if we are not aware of them. So this simple explanation of how we experience life turns life's round, because it allows people to deal with depression and also with anxiety. How? What I'm talking about is three three principles. That's how we this cold in there in psychology are rare. I would say in the field of even psychotherapy. There are three principles principles of mind, consciousness and thought would be don't understand how important is how central is the thought, to our experience in life, we get an awful lot of thoughts during the day, about 10 to 30,000 of them, and they are all neutral. So there is no such a thing, oh, I keep on getting negative thoughts or I need to think positive. All thoughts to start neutral. And there's a metaphor out. You probably remember first time when you went to the cinema with your parents or siblings, very little person, and they were curious where the speakers are coming from, and eventually you turn back and you you notice this white flickering light? Well, to see the picture, there's got to be screen. And screen is a metaphoric description of consciousness or conscious awareness. And the picture is a thought, oh, pictures are just pictures to start. However, thoughts create feelings. There's no such a thing like, Oh, I feel one way or the other, if you look sad or depressed. Now there's got to be thought first. And the feelings lead to actions. And no actions, also some form of action. And all actions have caused the consequences we are responsible for. So when it comes to a depression, what is it? Well, actually, it's engaging with the thoughts about the past is 98. I was thinking about, Oh, that's such a fantastic job. And it's gone. How terrible it is. Yes, in this days, it felt terrible. I ended up being diagnosed with severe depression. Once I understood, there's actually this thoughts about the past, and the past is gone. I cannot undo it, I cannot make it any better. And that's how it is the same as with the future. I'm talking about anxiety, what is anxiety? It is engaging in thoughts about our imagination. Once we believe that the thought which came to our mind is true, wow, it becomes a reality. So what to do? Now some people say and when when I work with veterans who are very depressed, nearly suicidal, we talked about it. And I teach them how to get rid of those thoughts. Or let them go. Because those are like clouds, the paths? So how to do it from the in practical terms? Well, when you drive a car, you often listen to the music, some music, you like some music, you know? Like your thoughts? Well, you do belong to the musical station, you change it. There's no such thing that you become thoughtless. Immediately. next thought comes the other. If that doesn't appeal to you that sort of metaphor. Imagine yourself standing on the platform of busy railway station, like a new street in Birmingham. You're standing in trains stop in front of you, or things or thoughts, doors open. It doesn't mean that you go to a certain example which is third metaphor, which is appealing probably for the younger population is we all have got smartphones, and quite often we look at posts on the Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn. And we spend about two or three seconds looking at the post and then we scroll so it comes into our mind. I noticed that I've seen it. I noticed thought about how fantastic was the past is gone. How fantastic moves, the relationship is gone. How close I was to my mother who passed away. Is this old true? But I don't have to engage in that sort of world. Who does how you Just a real practical advice. And that's how it works.Stuart Webb 15:04Tom, I love I love those analogies. And I love that you've given us such valuable free advice there in how not to engage in those self destructive thoughts. That's fantastic.Tom Spyt 15:16Well, it does. It does work, as I said to you. There's a lot is written on the rules of how we experience life. It is a term, which was coined by American philosopher called Sidney banks. And really, it is not a concept. It's not psychology or, or philosophy. That's the rules. And there's no way we can ignore them. Quite often, if Furthermore, it's possible to teach a little people about them, and they they understand it and understand it very well. Example. What's the consciousness? Well, consciousness is not binary. It's not that we are conscious or unconscious, of course, we've got to be conscious to, to be aware of the thoughts which come to our mind. However, consciousness has got the infinite number of levels. Like imagine a lift made out of glass, outside a skyscraper. And it goes up and down all day long, because that's what lifts to do. But it's the ground floor, it looks so the glass, it may not be necessarily quite nice picture of traffic, crowds, fumes. It may be some people you don't like the look of, but then it goes up. When it comes on, to the theatre, such as floor, you look through the same glass. Oh, it's so nice. I can see far away, it's peaceful and quiet. Well, as anything changed, it's exactly the same world. What it is what is important, the recognition of this is that we are all experiencing changes of our mood. Sometimes, we are in a not very good mood. And what is important to know that the moods are like, left, it will go up with a with us without us doing anything about it. There are certain conditions when it is impossible to make things better. If for instance, somebody is in a chronic, severe pain, that is impossible, without dealing with the pain first. What is what's the important when I was teaching this to my grandsons who were at the time, six and eight, and the next morning after our conversation, I was telling them, so what are you going to do if you are in a bad mood? Oh, and I think granddad is going to pass. So even the little people can understand that. And they can understand now, the importance of it is oh, they said there was a number of suicides among two teenage girls. Wow. How could they protect themselves? Understanding how we experience life that is the best protection and the only probably protection which comes from within not just regulating more and more different media. Yes, it is important is contributing. But for a teenager to understand that they what they experience may be just illusion.Stuart Webb 19:12Yes, yes. brilliant advice. I love it, Tom, that there must be a book or a course that you would recommend that the audience do some reading or thinking about that would help them to sort of understand some of what you've been talking about today. What What would you recommend?Tom Spyt 19:31I would recommend there is a American psychologist who spent a lot of time teaching people about it through a different programmes of crime prevention mainly. By the way I work with inmates. I correspond with them. And they are very responsive to what I have been talking about. They can rehabilitate not all of them, because some of them have got real psychopathic tendencies. And you cannot do anything to say government. But so what I would recommend, the author name is Jack pranskey. And the book to start with this, somebody should have told us, and it's a brilliant title. And when I read it, I thought somebody should have told me lie would have been so much easier. This book is also available in audio format. For those who, who prefer listening, because that's also very important to recognise that some of us are mostly visual, and some of us are predominantly auditory. That's helpful. I like audiobooks, because that makes going for a lot more interesting.Stuart Webb 21:02Brilliant stuff. Uh, Tom, I've asked you for questions. There must be a question that you think I should have asked, which I haven't. And so I'm now going to ask you to tell me the question that I should ask you, and then obviously, you're going to answer it for us and give us even more value?Tom Spyt 21:24Well, one of the things is, you could have asked me, How do you change? Like the question of someone who lost identity and purpose in life?Stuart Webb 21:40I do love the question.Tom Spyt 21:44Because that is there's a way and it's quite quick, easy way. And it's, it's the best is to do it in person, not always possible. So with the people who know. NLP, it's a, it's a more advanced than it would be, is possible to do it online. It's there is a different way of doing it. And that helps, helps people who are stuck as many of us are at some point in our lives. We don't need coaching all the time. However, any experience experienced there, any successful business person would have a coach from time to time. And then companies like Amazon provide free coaching for employees who wanted or encouraged it. And this, as I said, what I do with veterans, it's called mentoring, but in sent, in fact, it is it is coaching, too. So the mechanism already available. It's not a problem, the challenge of coaching is lack of awareness of how it works, and how it can benefit an individual.Stuart Webb 23:13Tom, Tom, I think you hit the nail on the head, so many people are not aware of what help they could get, and how they could overcome some of these and struggle too often on their own, don't they? And with that, I'm just going to put up this. scrolling across the bottom of the screen at the moment is where you can find more information about the sort of help that Tom gives. I'll just read it out for those people who are going to be listening to the audio. But it will be in the show notes. But it's www coaching and hypnosis. sanctuary.co.uk That's coaching and hypnosis. sanctuary.co.uk. Tom, you are a fascinating character with a fascinating history with some really brilliant things to say. I really do want to thank you so much for just spending a few minutes with us talking about some of this stuff. I know your time is valuable because you have so many people you're trying to help at the moment. So thank you so much for just spending a few minutes with us.Tom Spyt 24:13Oh, yeah, appreciate your station. Thank you, Stuart.Stuart Webb 24:16No problem Tom. Now, I'm just going to tell if you'd like to get onto our mailing list so that you can come and be sure that you get to catch up with really fascinating characters like Tom would you go to this link which is TCA dot FYI. So it's very simple TCA dot FYI, forward slash subscribe that gets you onto our mailing list. And we will email you once a week with who's gonna be on the link who's gonna be on the podcast this week. And also when it comes out as a further podcast, really interesting characters like Thomas spied, who will be he will be I'm sure. A valuable a valuable addition to your to your list if you can get on and look at his website. I'll just give you that one again, which is coaching and hypnosis. sanctuary.co.uk. Tom, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us. I really do appreciate it. I know how valuable your time is. And I appreciate that you've been so willing to give so much value to people about how we can better address some of our some of our issues. So thank you so much.Tom Spyt 25:24Thank you, Stuart.Stuart Webb 25:25I'm just gonna play the intro. I look forward to seeing you all next week. Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

Fully Convinced

romans heirs convinced 25i

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 26, 2023

Romans 4:13–25I. Heirs through the righteousness of faith (13-16a)II. The inner-workings of Abraham's faith (16b-22)III. Abraham's faith as a pattern for all (23-25)

Why Choose... Financial Success or Deep Personal Fulfillment

Got Velocity?

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 20, 2023 65:11

Follow Guest: John Patrick MorganLinkedIn - Twitter - Facebook - InstagramPersonal Website - Business Website Follow Host: Craig CapursoLinkedIn - Twitter - Facebook - Instagram Show transcript:All right, guys, so welcome to my battle plan. John. It's one of these things where I kind of look on the Internet a little bit and I dabble and see different people that kind of have a message that I like to share or at least just kind of bring people on and have good conversations. And you seem like one of those people that could do that. And so I'm not really exactly sure what it was that prompted me to follow you, but you gave me a very good return message and I thought it was phenomenal. I dug a little deeper and saw this is kind of like your thing. So John, tell people kind of a little bit about who you are. I know that you're in the coaching business. Speaker 1·00:43And I have some quotes from you that I took off that I'm going to read. And I'm going to say the essence of my life's work, my purpose is to serve the one person in front of me right here in the right now to see them fully, love them deeply and create what they are making and having a meaningful difference in them. So tell me a little bit in our audience who's listening today, who is John? Who is John Patrick Morgan? Speaker 2·01:08Yeah, thanks for reading that. Yeah, that was one of those things that like just like in a moment of kind of meditative journaling and presence with like, the question is, like, what are the purpose of my life? It just was like crystal clear that's it. When you boil everything down and always has been, it goes back to being my memory. When you read that, where it starts is like being a little kid, taking apart my mom and dad's vcr with a screwdriver and then putting it back together. I've always been interested in just like, how things work. And then that turned inward as I got older and started to be aware that my brain is a vcr, like my mind and my behavior. And I love people, I just love relationships, I love human beings. Speaker 2·01:53And so everybody's a vcr in that kind of way. And if I can take them apart and put them back together in a way that has the tracking work, remember that the tracking and vidi vhs, so the screen is clear, then I just love that. And so whether it's creating myself with clear tracking or creating another person to have clear tracking, that's my joy. There's other aspects of me too. I call it being a champion. I just love being the absolute best that I can be. I love competition, I love winning, but not to have power over others because I'm afraid I'm not enough, but because I love pushing everybody forward. Let's get that tracking even clearer. If I beat you, then we're both going to grow. If I can inspire you to stay engaged in that competition. Speaker 2·02:46And so for me, being a champion means being the best, but it also means being in the sense of a king or queen's champion, like really being a champion for another person, really going to battle to use the name of your podcast, for them against whatever it is in them that's getting in the way of them being their best. And so that combined with that kind of like, how does this work? How can I take it apart and put it back together has just driven me and everything that I've done. I had a number of different businesses prior to this, personal development industry business now that I've had for 15 years. But at the core of all of it is conversation as the medium like dialogue between me and another person to create something in the world, in them and in the world. Speaker 1·03:27So yeah, that's great. And as you're listening, John and I are in similar spaces where we're in the fulfillment business of taking somebody who's struggling with something in the world. The line that I read earlier was actually in response to receiving spam messages on LinkedIn, which I thought was and he said, maybe we're just all looking at this a different way. And you actually called that out. It's like, we're just not looking at this way. But if you take the opportunity that someone had contacted you, a marketing message that you receive is negative in spam as somebody trying to do something. And if you have a way to possibly help them in something you're doing, maybe you don't have to buy with the product, but maybe you can offer a speaking gig. Speaker 1·04:07Example that was talked about, you mentioned, and this person was trying to sell me tickets to some event, and you're like, Well, I should be who went speaking at that event? And I thought that was such a unique way to think about it. Where does that come from? Speaker 2·04:18Well, there's two layers to it, actually. Man, thanks for calling that out. That was from ways back. But the first layer of receiving spam is the idea that somebody out there is doing something to me. And so anybody that's getting spam in a way that it's bothering them at all is in a place of victimhood the circumstance and they're creating that. It's like this person is doing something to me by sending this unsolicited thing. It's a whole bunch of meaning and language. And so first and foremost, I always want to be free from any of that s***. And so you could be free from it by not accommodating it by getting a really good spam filter, or you could be free from it from not having this story that's a problem for you. And that's where I began. Speaker 2·05:02So once I'm free from that mattering and what happens is then love happens, because then you suddenly look out at the world and you can see everybody's innocence. And I just saw that everybody is sending me these messages, unsolicited, quote unquote messages, which is still a victimhood frame, but it's like they're sending me a message, right. And I wasn't judging it, and I wasn't p***** off about it. I wasn't annoyed by it. I saw with their innocence, I was like, oh. Then I could see that they're another human being trying to do something, trying to get somewhere in the world. Funny that's what I help people do. And so the second order insight when you're free, when you're coming from a place of love, is always one of service, and it's always generative, and it's always creative. Speaker 2·05:45So that came from that space, and it was the idea. So anytime I get an email from somebody now, it's not like, oh, what the h***? It's like, oh, what are they trying to do? How can I help them? Speaker 1·05:54That's right. Speaker 2·05:55It might not be to give them my money, but sometimes it is. Believe it or not, I've hired more people that have cold outreach to me than I think most people probably do, because I'm just open and I listen, and I'm like, this dude, this woman can actually help. And I've had some great business relationships with people that literally, you might say, spammed me. Speaker 1·06:16That's funny. I like that. And it's all perception. I say that we always have a story, and I'm not sure how you go about your coaching and your clients, but I really like to dig into a past. Right. And so I want to do that with you a little bit today. You're living in maui. You got ohana on your hat right now for the listeners that can't see us. Speaker 2·06:37Do you know what that means? Oh, you do? Awesome, man. Speaker 1·06:40My daughter says that to me all the time. She watches I forget what show it was. There's like, an alien that is in hawaii. She remembers it all the time, and she says it all the time, so I still picked up. Right. She can love this episode. But where does that come from for you? Where do you derive your roots? You said rhode island really quickly, before we jumped on air is where home was. Talk to me a little bit about. Speaker 2·07:03How I grew up. Yeah, I grew up in rhode island, in the suburb like place called warwick, which is 20 minutes from providence, the capital. We had a forest in our backyard, and I would go out in the morning and play outside all day and come in when it got dark, and I would be gone out exploring in the forest. And it was a beautiful childhood. We had a boat. I mean, I don't know if most people don't know this, but rhode island has more coastline than california because of all the islands. And so the boating culture there is a phenomenal. People come from around the world to sail in newport, rhode island. So that was a big part of my life growing up on the water. Yeah. Speaker 2·07:43And then I went to university in my home state and then I studied abroad and then it's like, wow, then the world was my oyster and so I left in my twenty s and I've went back to visit a few times but the rest of my life has been spread around the world, so but family. But you mentioned the word. Ohana, and family. I guess I'll speak to that too. I just have always been and am still really close with both of my parents. I know how blessed I am having worked with a lot of men and women who didn't have the upbringing that I had to be able to have a mother that loves you unconditionally and a father that is there to be a role model and to teach you. Speaker 2·08:24I was blessed and I had that and I know that those experiences are a big part of what I source from in my coaching. I've got my mother and father photos on my wall. I have a row of some mentors on my wall in my studio here. My mom and dad are at the top, not without challenges, heartbreaking when they divorced when I was 15. So there's certainly some stuff but for the most part I had a loving upbringing with mentorship and so I'm just living that out now as a father myself. And so family was a big thing for me and is central in my life. And when I was walking down the street here in maui and I saw the hat with Ohana on it, I was like, I want to keep that as close to me as I can. Speaker 2·09:05I've got a bracelet with my son's roomy and asher's names on them to keep them close. The hat's about keeping host belts, all about advertising it a little bit. It's like, hey guys, I love my family so much that I want you to know that family is a real orientation for me. Speaker 1·09:20I like that. That's great man. And what brought you to Hawaii? How did that trip take place? What in your life? Yeah, this whole podcast essentially we could talk about how cool we are all we want when we're successful in life, but I don't think that helps the general person who is likely the person that we can help. Obviously I don't know what specific avatar you're after, but generally speaking people have some money in a business and they're doing something and they're usually generally preoccupied with life as it's happening and not focusing on some of the things that they can. So what I would say to you is give us a little history of the up and coming you, John and John Morgan and what were things that you faced that you might have overcome? Speaker 1·10:02I like to see the come up stories because that's the most important part of the people that can relate to a podcast and listening as they're listening to our words and growing. How do you come through the tough times? And did you have any it sounds like you had a great familyhood, if you will, if that's a word. But what were your struggles? Speaker 2·10:24Yeah, man. I mean, I've had just, like any entrepreneur, I've had, like, massive financial challenges, of course, like, going completely broken into debt and upside down and not being able to afford rent and having a house sit and live with my girlfriend's parents in my late 20s, early 30s, which was really identity destroying for a time. And challenging all the freaking heated arguments about money and screaming at your wife and then realizing it has nothing to do with that. That's just painful. And also like, I had a health thing when I was younger. I got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in my 20s, which was really f****** scary, but it set me on a path and my mom but she got later diagnosed as well of just like it expanded my mind. Speaker 2·11:12I just started thinking looking, because up to that point it was like taco Bell, coca cola, just like I did martial arts but didn't matter what I ate because I was young and so I thought, you know, I was in shape but my body was dying in a way. My autoimmune system, my immune system was being attacked by the garbage that I was eating and so as I woke up to that and started eating healthy, I mean, it expanded my whole world. So it's not just about fitness to me, but it's about vitality and longevity. And I haven't had symptoms in years and one of my doctors said that you might have just cured yourself from this disease. And so that's part of my journey as well. Speaker 2·11:50As I mentioned, the pain of my parents'separation was and continues to be when you've got a really strong family and then they separate, it's always challenging. It's still challenging at Christmas time, still close with both my parents and it's like there's the awkwardness and stuff. Speaker 1·12:11I have a similar my parents divorced when I was in my twenty s I was in college, I believe is actually where I heard it first and I actually painted that as part of an identity and we could talk a little bit about identity, too, is that I did have parents that were together. And it was crushing to me, actually, when that happened. My mom actually lives with me here in Tennessee after a divorce that she had a second divorce kind of is what it is. But yeah, that was something that I had some personal struggles with and I'm sure a lot of people as the trend right now. There's a lot of broken homes out there but it's how you deal with it and what you can do with the lessons learned from it. How do you feel? Are you married? Speaker 2·12:52I am married. Yeah. Speaker 1·12:53Okay. Speaker 2·12:54This will be my ten year anniversary this October, right on my sons, two and six. I have two sons, and I'm happy that I mean, I lived with the idea that I will never get married because of what that what's the point? I also loved meeting lots of women and loved my freedom and experience. But it just came a point in my life where I loved my wife. And no, what it was I wanted to have kids with my then girlfriend. And for her, it was like, well, then we got to get married. And I was like, Are you sure? And at the same time, I was reading Joseph campbell's work The mythologist, and he was the one that really showed me that marriage is an enactment of a mythology and that there's a function to that and it's generative and it creates something. Speaker 2·13:43And I started to appreciate and understand that the living of a story for oneself and between two people is generative of something. It creates a possibility. And so I kind of fell in love with the idea of marriage. Now I f****** love it. Because the ultimate freedom is the discovery that the highest form of freedom is through commitment, not by avoiding it. And so it's kind of a second order experience of freedom in my life now that I find it in commitment as opposed to being not committed, which was when I was younger. It's a different kind of quality of freedom I love. Again, back to the ohana hat. My marriage to my wife and my kids is central. Speaker 1·14:25That's a great way to put it. You definitely have a way of kind of like explaining and you could tell that you have a deep sense of heart in what you do. I think it's apparent when people watch what you do, there seems like there's a deep purpose of actually fulfilling somebody's in or something. And I've been known as a little bit more cold, although that I have my ways of getting people to move and see themselves in different ways that they've never seen them. I'm definitely a competitor in this to get people to an edge, and it burns me when they don't do what I'm looking for. I think you sound like you have a little bit more compassion. Where does that come from? Is that your upbringing? Is that I think so, yeah. Speaker 2·15:06I don't know. Who knows, right? I can make up a story, but as I said earlier, my mom's just unconditionally loving, and she was concerned in talking to me, as I learned now, as a parent, it's good to talk to your kids about their emotions so that they find language and meaning and can connect with that inside them. But my mom did that, I guess, intuitively or something. I remember being in the rocking chair and with her saying, how do you feel? What are you feeling? So just having that attention inwardly focused and having it be okay to speak about that and having words and language for that is something. Speaker 2·15:40And Then I've Continued to take apart that vcr through my Life, like leading Into An embodiment Work in The Personal Development World and Going Deeper and Creating Even More Language and More Internal kinesthetic Awareness to Be Able To speak to that and Having The Courage To Bring It Up In Conversation With Other People and Help Them To Discover that. Right. Like, get the tracking clear, extend that metaphor again. Speaker 1·16:01Do you feel the people that you work with, it sounds like they're entrepreneurs. And I kind of took your bio from LinkedIn, and I want to ask you about the we us. You have that as your bio is my pronoun. Yeah, talk to me about that. But I want to get on because you also said you talk about love, power, freedom, creating and entrepreneurship. And so you definitely seem like you go in from angle where it's like you're really trying to get deep into this people's soul a little bit, have them feel something because everyone's trying to do something. Not a lot of people feel something. So a little bit more about that whole construct. Speaker 2·16:35Yeah. The wes. My website for my company is we arecreating.com. Right. And so this idea that what we are is I see the big banging on like, we are the universe expanding. It's not like, oh, the universe is like planets and we're people. Literally. It bangs and here we are, and it's still expanding in the form of memetic expression, in the form of human procreation. It is the expansion of the universe. So we are that universe creating itself. And it's also a declaration. This is what we're up to. We are up to creating the we kind of is a way of relating to all of us. Not as me versus you or me and you. It's just a frame. I remember hearing this once. Speaker 2·17:29I don't know if that it's true, but I read it somewhere, so maybe it is that the Kiwis, the natives in New Zealand don't even have a pronoun for I. They only have we because they were as invoking their ancestors when they speak. And I just thought that was a beautiful idea. So the west is really a way of just speaking to that in the LinkedIn thing, but it's also a little bit of a jab at the whole pronoun bullshit. You got to tell me how I got to call you in order for you to be safe and okay. I see that as a form of extreme victimhood. Speaker 1·17:57Sure. Hoping you were going to go that way because it sounded like you came from just such a place of love. I was like, man, is this guy this way or is he this way? Speaker 2·18:06No, but my love has look. Where is it? I'll show you what my love looks like. I had to move it because my kids I don't know if you guys have a video, but my love is a razor sharp samurai sword, man. Like, my love will cut like a knife or smash like a hammer. So I have no problem with violence and no problem with well, I shouldn't say I have no problem with violence. I have no problem with violence where it's in service of something beautiful. I'm poking fun in that direction as well. Speaker 1·18:38Good. Now this conversation got good. I'm just making sure you always never know who someone is when they're on the other line. Speaker 2·18:44Not sway to dance into it, but I appreciate it, but yeah, well, I. Speaker 1·18:48Want to see what was going on there. And there's a couple of things that I'll talk about and look, I'm the guy that I'll bring up everything anywhere, and look, if someone doesn't want to have it, then we just won't air it. I probably just don't cut things out. But anyway, love, power, freedom, creating, entrepreneurship. Do you feel like when you're talking to somebody and you're in the professional development space, are you feeling like they're just not getting it? And are you more user men, women, both? What would be your tribe? Speaker 2·19:12Well, most of the time when I'm speaking, I'm feeling like people aren't getting it. But that's because that's where I like to hang out. I pretty much only hang out with mentors and all hire a coach myself if when they talk, I don't get it. Because something that's beyond the precipice of my understanding of my capacity to conceptualize. That's what I'm interested in. That's why I'm taking apart the f****** vcr, because I get that I put this thing in, but how does it turn into that? How is it doing that? Sometimes it can be frustrating for people that are in my world, but that's why we take the money up front. Because it's like, now you got to stick with it and you're in and you'll get there if you stay with it. That's what I believe. Speaker 2·19:55If you stay in a conversation where you're f****** confused and you're not getting it, then you're going to grow. I can viscerally remember what it was like when I discovered the taoist path. My good friend James tripp, who has been a taoist in tai chi's whole life, could see in a way where paradox was obvious to him, but I was experiencing it as a dichotomy. It's either this or that. And he's like, no, dude, it's both. And I'm like, f***. Whereas now I live paradox. People say to me, sometimes being coached by you is like reading the Dow dei jing. It's like that's because I've read it a hundred times and I live it. And so that's an evolution of mind that comes through hanging with that tension. Speaker 2·20:36And sometimes to my detriment because sometimes I'm speaking so far out beyond what a person is able to understand that I miss the ability to connect with them. So I am constantly working on how can I build that bridge? I don't know if I answered your question, but. Speaker 1·20:56We'Ll just have more. We'll just keep asking. Speaker 2·20:57Okay, cool. Speaker 1·20:59But I resonate with what you kind of just said as far as, like, look, it's sometimes not here nor there, right? There was a big event that I was at in Miami this weekend where were actually going to be doing a pitch from the stage or an opportunity to offer someone to go deeper with. It's not me. It was the coach that I was working with, coach Michael Burke. And it's going to be like a 997 offer. We thought it, you know, might have like a million dollar take from the event, get 1000 people in. The offer because of what were offering was just so extreme. Didn't get a chance to put it down. There was about eight to 12,000, I don't know, probably 8000 people at the venue at the Loan depot Center. Speaker 1·21:31And, you know, a minute and 30 seconds before the stage, the organizers like, we can't do it. Something happened. We can't pitch. And he was really the person who didn't want anyone to offer any services from stage. It was just kind of an event for all the agents that were there. It was an insurance and it was a big blow because Coach burt, myself, the team that were working with, kind of put a lot of energy and time into this. And so he was kind of devastated a little bit after the event and kind of just thinking about it and I go, well, it's like that Chinese proverb, maybe it's not Chinese proverb, I don't know what it is. But the proverb where it says, the farmer's son went out into the field, fell off the horse, broke his leg. Speaker 1·22:11And then he basically came back. All the townspeople were like, hey, that's so unfortunate. And the father was like, maybe it isn't. And then the army comes through the next week and trust the sons and then, oh, that's so fortunate that your son broke his leg. He can't go. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, right? So there's a lot of ways to see it. And I actually brought that up to those guys. I was like, well, maybe there's a better mangle here that something didn't happen for a reason. And trying to look deeper into the wise of many things and trying not to overreact. I think I was definitely in my younger years and overreacted and certainly the more I get into self development, reading much of the books, I think it gives you a whole different look on perception. Speaker 1·22:47So that's great. Well, let's talk about looking at a couple of things. I pulled some lines and I just want to see how you're going to respond to some of these. So if you're cool with pitch and catch? Speaker 2·22:58Yeah, man. I don't know what that means, but throw something. Speaker 1·23:02You will never earn more than your own self worth. What does that mean to you? Speaker 2·23:05Yeah, well, I don't remember saying that, but I think it's true. Okay, cool. I think that it's true in the sense of like, if you don't believe you're worth something, then you're going to find a way to not be able to receive it. You're going to either not take action on the opportunity that would produce that income, you're going to have some kind of awkward state of being that's going to blow the deal, whatever it is. It's not even just down to a service business. Like, you pay me for this per hour. If I believe that I'm not worth the amazing outcome that this real estate deal looks like it's going to be for me, then you show up in a way that drops the ball. I think that's a pretty awesome statement. Speaker 1·23:48Yeah. As I'm podcasting, I have these Notes folder, right? I think I'm sure you probably have these different I have so many. And I was like, you know what? Let me kind of get into John because he's definitely a thinker. He thinks of things intellectually. And I was like, let me see where he is on some of these. Here's something. And this will relate to you as a father as well as a business owner. And I'm curious just to see how you take this one. So I have the battle plan. We're like a self development. A lot of people come to me for the fitness and health side things first, just because that's what I was known for in my past. I'm obviously doing a lot more with the business development side mental. I'm even calling myself like the mental mechanic right now. Speaker 1·24:25I don't even know. I'm just trying to figure out angle that puts me in someone's mind and makes them think to go deeper and we have a conversation. But one thing I brought up to my group was like, the concept is, what if my time with my kids is not what it's supposed to be? For example, the person who works so much and strive so hard to make money for their family. So the generation that will have money is growing and aging will be taken care of versus the father or mother that spends so much time with their kids is more of that average job but is present in their kids life. How do you see the two splits? And I know it's not an easy answer, but is there a better way? Speaker 2·25:06Yeah, there's a f****** better way, dude. There's always a better way than having to choose between a rock and a hard place. That's my whole commitment in life. That's literally what we stand for. If you read our website that we are creating, we transcend the paradigm of having to choose. Between financial success and spiritual deep personal fulfillment. You could say that being with your family is that. And the better way is saying, f*** that. Between choosing, I'm going to have a business that produces all the financial wealth and abundance that I want, and I'm going to stop working at noon. I'm going to pick my kids up from school. You can hear my passion for this, right? This is my life. This is my commitment. Speaker 2·25:44When I was just a coach, before I had my company, I was bringing in half a million dollars a year. Like, paying the taxes on that much money, net income, working two days a week, coaching, picking my kids up from school. Like, I start my calls at 07:00 A.m. In Hawaii. I'm done at noon. I work out till two. And then I pick my kids up, we go to the beach. Like, that's my life. And you don't get a life like that unless you are f****** a stand. That is possible that you can have both because there aren't a lot of paths, tasks for how to have both. You have to forge one. Speaker 2·26:17And the way you forge it is to start with a commitment that I will be with my kids, a substantial amount of time, and I will make all the money I want to make. You don't get that unless you stand for it. And if you buy the story that question comes from, you're f*****. You're never going to get there. Speaker 1·26:31I love that answer, but let me play devil's advocate, please. Do a job. And he's working and he's doing something. He's maybe not as passionate as you, or a female for that matter. My audience is generally male, so we're going to just speak to the males right now. Female, thank you. But you're the very few people that listen to me, and I'm cool with that. But let's just say the income earner in the household is working. They're putting their time in, and they don't even have that better path. How do you get them there? What's the means? Obviously the pain is there. They want something deeper. They want something more for their life. They want more money. They want more time. How do you even get them to that step? What's that process? Speaker 2·27:06Well, there's two things, right? Is it that you want to make more money and do you want to make more time? And you can have both, but let's take them one at a time. You want to make more money. The real simple is you got to have more power. And when I say more power, you make more of a difference in less time. That's literally what people are paid for. Sounds like you were worked on Wall Street. I have family who are fund managers. And why are they paid so much? Because of the leverage. The impact that your decision and your research has is highly leveraged. And whether it's in a sole proprietor that's a service provider or a fund manager. It's the same thing. Speaker 2·27:41How can I make the biggest difference in a conversation in the shortest amount of time has been my fascination for 15 years. And that's why I get $3,000 an hour to be in conversation with the person because of what I can do in conversation with them. So it's like make more of a difference in less time. And how are you going to do that? Well, then we go to the other side because the how is where the fulfillment is going to be in. So how would you love to do that? Well, I'd love to play guitar. Okay, well, cool. So what's the chances that you playing guitar is going to make the biggest difference the smallest amount of time? Okay, maybe for you it's pretty low. It's like, well, then what else do you love to do? Speaker 2·28:13So let's come up with all the things that you love doing and enjoying and let's isolate down to where you can make the biggest difference, the smallest amount of time, and let's focus in on that. And so then the next obstacle you run into with somebody who's not done what they would love for years or decades because they believe the lie in society that you can't have your cake and eat it, which is a f****** weird statement anyway. But if you live for so long not giving yourself the freedom to do what you love, you not only don't have that in your life, but you lose the contact within to even know what it is that you do love. If you don't give yourself permission to know your inner compass and then to act on it, you lose touch with it. Speaker 2·28:55And then people will say, well, I don't even know what I love. Well, no s*** you don't. So we got to really slow down with people and start to break them out of their ideas and start to get them in touch with at least their curiosity. And then you have to take action on that to feed your body with the knowing that it's safe and okay. And then that little voice starts to get louder and you can get more in touch that you can start to feel joy in what you love again, and you can start to use it to guide you and your life and your work. So that's a kind of summary, but yeah. Speaker 1·29:23Now we just woke in. John he's here. Welcome. Speaker 2·29:28Thanks. Fired up. Speaker 1·29:30I love it, man. And that's a great response and a great answer because everyone wants to basically have their cake and eat it too. As he mentioned, the weird line and part of my framework is design a life worth living. Right? What's that legacy that you're trying to leave to the generation or the following generation? That's what I want to do is leave a legacy and a generational wealth to my family and to the people that come up but also not allow them just to have it. You know what I mean? Like they got to work for it. There are too many people that have the money and just give their kids blindly. And that's what makes weak society. I think we're seeing that all over the place right now. Yeah, but right on. Let me talk about our senses. Speaker 1·30:08Let's switch a gear here. Are you a man of faith and spirituality? Speaker 2·30:13Yeah, I am. Not a particular religion or anything like that. It was raised Catholic, and then I went like full blown atheist for like a few years as I got into science. And then I started traveling and kind of found my spiritual path. And I think at this time of my life finding even more and more faith in something greater than me being at cause in my life in the sense of both inwardly like a small voice that maybe in the past I might have said is my own personal intuition that's guided by my subconscious patterning and is still kind of separate. Whereas now it feels like and I believe that this voice is coming from something beyond just this singular body. Speaker 2·31:00And the messages that I get to images, through dreams, through meditative inquiry, through asking and listening, which you could call prayer, and also through the circumstances, like for me, surrendering to the circumstances which have a certain resonance to them which have a certain auspicious nature to them, which have a recurring nature to them is following, you could say, the voice of God, in the same way as it would be when I follow it within. So there's all that like being guided in the sense of creation, but then there's also this overarching sense of care that I'm really in touch with, that we are all cared for in a beautiful ways and sometimes we just can't understand what that care why that care looks the way that it does. But that's an all pervading experience for me lately. Speaker 1·31:52Okay, well, I always bring up the fact that our senses are limiting. Hearing, taste, touch, smell those are only so many things that we can essentially have a relationship with or we could have basically an outcome after we experience one of those things. But when I look at faith and I look at blind faith right? Faith by itself is to believe in something that doesn't currently exist, that you can see, smell, taste, touch. Here you have to believe in something to be true, almost like vision half to something that you want. Is certain ways that I kind of look at that. If you look at these senses, wouldn't it make sense that there are things that we can't see, can't touch, can't smell like germs? We don't know that they're there, but they're there. The ultraviolet rays in the air. Speaker 1·32:37We can't see those things, but they're there. There's smells that we don't have hearing sounds, pictures that we don't have. So where are you in your spiritual life as far as knowing that there's angels, demons, things of that nature? Do you believe these things exist around us? Do you believe that is more just for the Bible people? What's your thought process there? Speaker 2·32:56Yeah, I have to start at the beginning, which is, I mean I love that you said doesn't it make sense that there are things that are there that we can't sense? And it's like the idea of making sense is so deep because even when we're trying to connect with something that's beyond our senses we use the phrase make sense to access that right. And so there's a certain way of being in our physical body that is a limitation to our orientation, which is what you're kind of speaking to. And I am so open to there being something other than this idea of just me in both the physical world but also in the non physical. But what I don't have is the idea that I know what those things specifically are and these are their actual names. Speaker 2·33:42Because I don't believe that the names that we give anything is what anything is. It's just a label, it's just a story. Like the word truth itself. Actually etymologically evolved from the word tree as in an oak tree. Tree became truth. And what is that? It's just something that's there and dependable and solid, but trees can also be cut down. And so I have a knowing that all of it is story. All of it. I'm doing a talk tomorrow for my community called at the Left Hand of God which is about my exploration, what you call it the left hand path in magic or creation, which is the path of descent into the sensory experience. Speaker 2·34:21It's transcendent, like basically the right handed path seated at the right hand of the father right is the idea that if you do what is morally and ethically good, you'll be pure and you'll be welcomed into the embrace of the all of God, of union. The left handed path is like okay, you're going to go your way and you're going to find God that way, you're going to go into pleasure, into pain, into the things that are socially unacceptable and you're going to find something transcendent of all of these stories and meaning and you're going to meet the divine that way. And so I've been in the last year or two exploring that path involving also the use of psychedelics. Speaker 2·34:56And so for me when I have an experience that is not the normal experience, whether it's through meditative practice or induced through psychedelics and all of this sensory experience melts away. Only thing you're left with is the possibility that something beyond because there's still something here and this idea of vision or touch is no longer as relevant because I'm touching something that isn't actually there, or is it. Speaker 1·35:25I was in a Bible study, so I'm a Catholic. I grew up Catholic, but I'm a Christian. I was reborn. But there was a period in my life also that I went to college and we had to take a religion course in college. I went to Sick Heart University up in Connecticut. And they make you take Religion 101. And after doing so, I really kind of just been exposed to the other religions. And I was like, man, why is mine better than anyone else's? And I hated the fact that Catholic priests can't have relations with women and stuff. So I was really having a hard time understanding that. Speaker 1·35:55And I kind of walked away from the church for a while and went into more like craig ism due to others what you want done to yourself, which is the basic principles of religion anyway, when it's all broken. Down to kind of some constructs and kind of really got into it later in life after having my daughter, there was a client that had exposed me to a message, and I'll do an episode on this for whoever's listening at some point of my walk into religion once again. But about a month ago, were sitting in a Bible study with a bunch of guys, and we talked about, like, what is your being, what is your thoughts? Those things that are inside of you, do they go you can't touch, taste, smell, see them? So that thing, where does it even live? Speaker 1·36:37What part of your body is it in? Everyone thinks it's here, but is it not? They say the stomach is your second brain. So that's an interesting concept when you're looking at your thoughts, your anxieties, the stresses, your visions, the thing you think about, those don't have any clues to what? Where our senses are. Because those are things that we're internalizing ourselves and we're having a demonstrated capacity to feel a certain way around those where you could feel one way and I could feel another way. And so it's very interesting to see how we are affected psychologically by those things, et cetera. But it's just a concept I kind of want to just run by you as far as, like, your being. Speaker 1·37:12What is that to you when you hear the word your being, that thing, and that could possibly pass when you leave, what does that mean to you? Speaker 2·37:20Yeah, well, I have two definitions of the word being because I think there's two that are used out there, and I kind of distinguish them. I say, like, uppercase being is like the presence that is transcendent of story and meaning and even humanness. It's like that oneness experience that you have when you're in a deep meditation. That oneness experience that you have when everybody in the Catholic Church is singing and there's a real presence of Holy Spirit. Right? Like, that's something beyond the stories about me. My memories meaning that's like all uppercase being. And then there's being in what I would call the heideggerian sense to reference the philosopher Martin heidegger, which is to say, being is the house of language. I would say that's an uppercase being, just being. Speaker 2·38:09And so is this thing being a coffee mug that I'm holding in my hand or is it being a thrown object when I smash it against the wall? Well, it depends on what story that I'm telling and what's happening. Heidegger says a hammer isn't being a hammer that's hanging on the wall in the tool shed unless there's a human out there focused on it or using it. Otherwise it's just unnamed. There's just something there. And so for me, I'm distinguishing the way that you were talking about being. I think you were invoking both in the same definition. And for me that distinction is really important. To go beyond the labels is the being that for me is holy and spiritual and then the other aspect of being. So to bring it back to myself, what is my being? Speaker 2·39:00Well, my being is our being that goes back to the wii Us pronoun, right? Like in the all uppercase being. And it just is. And it becomes hard to even use language to talk about it. We can signpost towards it, but then language gives up or has to give up. But then there's the other side of it. Like who am I being today? Am I being a kind and loving man? Am I being free? Am I being powerful? Or am I being kind of a passive aggressive d*** with my wife? Like which? Who am I being? And everything in between and all other sorts of things. And being is actually very central to our work as well. And so both the all uppercase being and helping a person be free and connected to a source of love, you could call it God. Speaker 2·39:42We have a lot of clients that call it God and relate to it that way. And I'm not so hung up on which language a person uses and then like cool, now bring it back down to earth as that love, as God. What and who are you being in the world of form? Are you being? I am a valuable person. Cool. Are you being that I have specific monetary valuable value in the way that I do this service? Even better. That's going to be more likely to produce a material outcome. So we help people to really cultivate a conscious way of being in the world that produces what they want. So for us, being is the bridge between the spiritual and the material. Speaker 1·40:20Like that. That's good, man. Let me ask you something, a question that as I kind of go a little bit deeper here. What's the number one question that you wish you were asked on these podcasts? What is this thing that you want people in our audience to know about you. Speaker 2·40:38It's funny when people podcasters often will ask that in advance of a podcast and I always throw it back to them. And I hope that when you think about the mission statement that you read earlier, it will make sense as to why. But the thing that I want most for people in this podcast that are listening to this podcast to know is the thing that's most going to serve them in getting what they want. And so I always throw it back to the podcaster and I say for your audience, why are they here? Why are they listening? And when you can tell me that, then I can tell you exactly what I want them to know or to know about me. Because who gives a s*** otherwise about me? Speaker 2·41:15I am only relevant in this podcast to the extent at which I serve and make a difference for the people listening. Otherwise, my answer is about me. And that doesn't it doesn't fulfill me. It doesn't really work. That doesn't create many results anyway. So can you answer that? Why are they here? What is your sense? Speaker 1·41:32100%. Yeah, man. This audience is to be served through what I call the four senses or the four pillars. Faith, fitness, fellowship and finances and the constructs that we live through our life. We discussed up and down and the reason this is kind of a different, maybe off topic episode. Just basically you and I kind of had a small relationship on social media where I was just attracted to some of the things you said. You sent me back a great message and I just said, you know what, this guy just looks like he's going to go in here and he's going to have a deep conversation. We're going to ask some odd questions and kind of just see where this conversation goes. Speaker 1·42:08Because at the end of the day, too many people come in with an agenda, kind of like me asking you that question. You would see what your agenda is. And I think you're holding true to who you are. The agenda is to serve and to make sure that the conversations I'm having today are present. And something that I don't do well is actually live in the present. I live into the vision of my future, of what I'm trying to accomplish. But I think the people that are listening and being served by this episode are going to understand that there's a lot more to them outside of their own personal agendas. And so when we're developing our faith, our fitness, a lot of people will listen to this for some version of what they think they're going to get out of my fitness. Speaker 1·42:49I don't really do fitness on this podcast, unfortunately. We talk a little bit about that. I just think it's quite boring and easy and I know it's not for everybody, but it's just do the work and usually the results come and there's a lot of different small things in between that. I think people over complicate as I'm thinking of people who do ice baths because probably they're about £150 overweight and they shouldn't do that first, but that's another story for something else. It's more or less just basically opening up someone's mind to think another way and to know that maybe the way they perceive themselves see themselves or actually interact in the world may not be the way someone else perceives. Speaker 1·43:22Them, sees them and interacts as you are mentioning your being or how your being is only perceived by the person telling the story about what you're going to do with it. So my wife and I can see something and taste something and have completely different conversations around what happened. Literally, I would walk into the house and feel like I'm okay, but yet she's in a bad mood and now I'm seeing as the enemy, et cetera. So being perceptional, that's great. So this is just a good conversation to have us just kind of take a moment and see ourselves for who we are or who we're being. And I just thought that's where this conversation was going to go and you're actually walking right into it, which is great. Speaker 2·43:58So now I can answer your question. The question that I wish you would have asked me to play into your question is, how can a person's faith fitness? How can you, john Morgan most help a person with their faith, their fitness, their fellowship and their finances, right? And so that would have been completely out of left field because it's kind of a mouthful. But when I ask myself that question, I sit with it. I don't have to try to figure that s*** out because I have faith. I have faith that whatever shows up when I listen to that question with my heart, that whatever shows up, that's f****** useful. Speaker 2·44:36So I'm going to let my mouth open and say that's how I've learned to make a big difference in a small amount of time, to trust that, to not try to figure that s*** out, but just trust it and go. So I'm going to do that here. I don't know what's going to come, but what I'm seeing is between miles 20 and 26 of the marathon that I ran a few weeks ago, which I ran without training, I had run two or 3 miles a week on and off over the past year. So I wasn't ready. But I did it. Why did I do it? Because I was and am and continue to be fascinated with how much more we can achieve when we liberate ourselves from ideas that are common. Common ideas like you should stop when it hurts. Speaker 2·45:21Ideas like running when something hurt means you're going to get an injury. And ideas like injuries are bad. I asked Chat tpt, what is the benefit of injury? There is no benefit of injury. Are you f****** kidding me? Every time I injure my hands on the barbell, they call us and they get thicker and I become more capable of doing things with my hands. There is benefit to injury. I could make a mile long list. And so ideas that are so common that even artificial intelligence can't see beyond them, why is that important for me to share with your team, with your community? Speaker 2·45:55Because when you look at fitness not as a context to produce an outcome that's for your physical body, but you look at fitness as a context to develop a capacity to do things that are difficult and hard, suddenly fitness becomes the f****** fusion reactor for your entire life. And so when I go out in my barn and I hit the bag I'm a big fan of a company called Fight Camp. They're like the boxing version of peleton, right? Yeah, I do that four or five days a week. You know them f****** love it. Speaker 1·46:24I own a rockbox Fitness. That's a fitness franchise. I own two of those. So they're kickboxing and functional fitness. Speaker 2·46:30So I get the same idea. So you get it. So when I go out there and hit that bag and I'm an animal on the leaderboard, it's like I want to beat everybody on the leaderboard. I want to hit it as hard as I can, as fast as I can and keep that pace. Right? Why? Is it because I got some ego trip about beating people on the leaderboard? No. Because I know that if I can do that, when my heart's like, going to explode, when my breath and I can't even keep my breath if I can tell myself to keep going. And what I've done is I've endured. And the word endure etymologically comes from indira. That's Latin for strength. And within what I'm doing when I'm enduring, it's not about, oh, I'm getting to some outcome. Speaker 2·47:09It's not about, oh, I'm suffering now. I'm not suffering. There's pain and I'm enjoying it. What I'm doing is I'm cultivating strength in my heart. I'm strengthening my heart, which in old Latin was to strengthen the will. And I walk out of that barn and I walk back into my office and there are things that I can do and will do that I wouldn't have done if I didn't cultivate that capacity. So I would say for all the guys listening to this, get f****** fit in your physical body because it will raise everything in your life and don't do it for the outcome. Like, oh, I'm going to have ABS. Speaker 2·47:39No, when you finish the workout, you just got strength of will and heart that's going to actually benefit you and your finances and your fellowship and your faith so much more than ABS ever could. Speaker 1·47:49Love it. That's great, man. Speaker 2·47:51Thanks for asking. Speaker 1·47:53Thanks for answering. Speaker 2·47:54You're welcome. Speaker 1·47:56Love it. This guy loves teen. This guy up. Do you have a tagline? Do you have anything that you would go a quote or motto that you live by? Speaker 2·48:04Yeah, man, what do you got? I am creating, and my being is primary. I am love as loving awareness, as loving kindness. I am magic. I am the gathering of pattern and power, and I create as I speak. I am that I live the archetypal energy of the king. And I know that you will do as I command. I know that I may be wrong, and that's okay, for I am my justification. I am mastery of energy change over time. That is, I am the mastery of power, and I am the arbiter of time. In fact, I know that I have all the time there is to do with what I will, and my will shall be the whole of the law. Speaker 1·48:48There's a little taste that is pretty powerful. I like having somebody have something powerful to say and respond. Now I'm going to throw the opposite question. Let me see if I even wrote this one down. Maybe it's on my podcast. I'll find it here and I got my notes, but it was more or less having like, affirmations. Let's see, how do you feel about that? Are you someone who speaks affirmations into somebody? Do you feel like it's just cheap words that people just aren't willing to take action on? How do you feel about affirmations? Speaker 2·49:23So yes, I feel that affirmations are cheap words. I don't affirm anything. But what I do is I declare every day who I am and who I am being. And that distinction is the distinction that makes the difference. There's been psychological research done on affirmations, and in most cases the research shows that they are not only not productive, but counterproductive. Because to affirm something is try to convince yourself of something that you believe in your heart isn't true. And what it does by speaking it is actually with that lack of presence and that lack of forgiveness. What it actually does is it entrenches the counter belief, and you actually feel worse, feel less happy, less beautiful, whatever it is. And so I don't affirm anything. I say it wasn't the affirmation of 1776 that created the United States. It was a declaration. Speaker 2·50:13We're not trying to convince anybody. This is a decision. Heads up. This is starting now. And it is. And it comes from a space of letting go of the old. And so for me, there's a deep process, a spiritual process of real liberation and forgiveness from the counter belief that has to take place before there is a declaration. And that needs to be a declaration, not an affirmation. It needs to be a decision, a statement. And those things I just shared with you are part of the declarations that I speak on a regular basis. I journal them. I speak them aloud. I create myself that's the conscious inculcation. Of who I am being, which is a capitalized being, not all uppercase being of that ma'am. Speaker 1·50:53I have yet to find it, but I don't think I need to. I think you crushed it and I am on the same page. I don't believe you can sit there and just tell yourself it's like the person who gets hype in the gym and does a set and screams loud and makes a big scene. And it's wanting someone to look at them or wanting to empower themselves to do something. When you just sit on the bench and do it, or just take action and get it done. So you set up much more eloquently than I did. Very good. Let's see. Speaker 2·51:19Well, the best way to teach yourself who you are is to do the thing that's an expression of that. There's no better convincer of identity than an action that comes from such an identity. So for me, speaking can be part of it, but the action that's aligned with that speaking. So if I were being this, then what would I be doing? Cool. Do that, then you're being it. So I'm with you. Speaker 1·51:39Cool. The more you shine, the more shadows you cast. Speaker 2·51:45Yeah, I think directions. Yay. F*** yeah. The more you shine, the more shadows you cast. The more you shine, the darker the shadow. The longer the shadow. All that stuff is absolutely true, I think of yourself and of others. Speaker 1·52:03Why do you think people feel that way when people are out shining them? Do they feel they have something to prove? Do they feel inferior? For the most part, when people see somebody doing something great, they have already a negative attention towards that person and they feel inferior. In my opinion, this is what they feel. Or they feel like they can never achieve that. As opposed to saying, good for that person. Man, that's so cool that they're doing that great thing. It would be cool maybe one day, if I can do something like it and be in motion to say I'm inspired, I'm looking up to this person. I'd like to do more and learn from this person. Speaker 2·52:36Why do you see their innocence? I see their innocence. Man, it's heartbreaking when I shine and somebody else gets triggered by it or annoyed by it. I am. I feel heartbreak for the fact that they have a story about themselves as not capable, that they're not consciously aware of, and they are feeling the pain of they're feeling their sadness. It f****** hurts to believe the lie that I'm not capable of that. And then I'm so unaware that I'm believing that lie and that I'm even feeling the hurt that I get a secondary emotional response, which is anger. And then I project that away from me outward, as if it's that person, and I look for some flaw in them and try to tear them down. So I'm like seven orders away from what's actually going on. Speaker 2·53:19So to me, that's heartbreaking, that's whole messes there. And that's what I love to help people with. Speaker 1·53:25Yeah, I hear you, and I sense it too, and I see people doing certain things like that. I just always say it's like looking at from a scarcity perspective. People are like, oh, I got to cut expenses. And don't get me wrong, you shouldn't be blatantly spending too much. But I always say, just make more money. When I lived on Wall Street and different things happened, had a talk on Harvard way back when, I think it was May, I actually just shared a piece of it the other day, and I said, if I could lose $100,000 overnight, I could gain $100,000 overnight. You know what I mean? And that was part of just being the emotional trauma and the roller coaster of money coming and going, and it's having a deep self worth of who you are and what you can accomplish. Speaker 1·54:05And the stories that we tell about ourselves become who we are. It becomes a belief in the sense of what we can do. So when we started the conversation with you are your own self worth or you can never outlive your own self worth, it becomes true because that's the story that people paint. How do you help people unpack that? I think both of us are very mental magicians, if you will, when it comes down to what we do with clients, because we could tell them to do X, Y, and Z in the gym or in business, et cetera. But if we can't change the way they think or the way they respond or the way they perceive, we got nothing. So how do you get into that? Speaker 2·54:36Well, for that one in particular, it's a Bible study for me. You're going to love this one, Matthew. Oh, God, I can't remember the verse right now, but it's the book of Matthew. And you'll know the verse, to those who have more will be given, and to those who have not, all will be taken away. And so I help people to understand that because it's their way of seeing the world that often gets in the way of their efficacy. It's not always a personal limitation. It's their map of reality that often stops them. And so my explanation for that verse is to those who believe that they have more will actually be given, and to those who believe that they don't have those who live in scarcity, all will actually be taken away from them. Speaker 2·55:19And when you start to look at that in the world, you're like, holy s***, that's true. There's actually I don't know if you knew this in the wikipedia you can find there's a thing called the Matthew effect. It's a principle that has been shown to exist in all areas of life. Financially. Everything literally to those who have more is those get more. The people who get the most funding, they get more funding and it just goes on and on in every area. And so it's true at every level. And it's like if you look at that from a place of victimhood, oh my gosh, I don't have so I'm not going to be given you're not getting it. You're saying you don't have as a way of believing. If you so then start focusing on what you do have. Speaker 2·55:58You start with what you actually have. Like, well, I have my health, I've got my wife and my kids. And then you start to feel gratitude and then you realize that everything that you have is imagined. And I say to people, it's like, when do you have money? Do you have when somebody says yes to paying you? Do you have the money when they pay the invoice or do you have it when it clears and now it's in funds that you can use? Or do you have to take it out of that bank and have it as cash or do you have to eat it? When do you have it? So having is actually something that's a decision that you make. And so if that's the case, then play with that. Speaker 2·56:35So I have my health, I have my wife, I have my kids, and I have all the money in the world for money is liquid and it flows in abundance. And I'm telling you right now when I say that I f****** have it, dude, I have it the same way as I had this ohana hat right now. And I'll tell you what, when you have something like that, whether or not. Speaker 1·56:53You actually have it, more is given love that's powerful. And you give me some great sound clips here. So we'll send those your way. Speaker 2·57:01Awesome, buddy. Speaker 1·57:02We'll get you hooked up. So I got two more things. We're closing in on an hour here with this episode and I have two questions to ask you. What would you tell your 20 year old self if you know the advice that you know now? What, what would be the person you know in the that would need the advice that you can give them today in a line or two? Just something that you see that is completely something that's not prevalent when you're in that come up stage. Not to say that my audience is 20 to 30, they're probably 30 or more. The avatar is probably 35. But what would you say to that learning experience that you've got today that you know d*** well didn't serve you earlier? Speaker 2·57:41I don't know. I always find these the most challenging questions and I'd say bring any question. And the reason I find them challenging is because I don't wish that anything was different in my past. I value all of the quote unquote wrong turns and struggles as much as I do the right turns. Right. I have this Back to the Future fear. Like if I were to go back with the almanac, I'm going to f*** it up. We're going to end up with biffs. Speaker 1·58:03Going to be high rise. I hear that. And I'm not saying change anything, but what can you see is for me listening to you? Have you always had this sense of inner intersection? Speaker 2·58:18I used to be more of a d*** and I started to be a nicer, kinder person. So if I could go back, I don't think there'd be any downside of me being less of a d*** sooner. So I'd go all the way back to elementary school. Actually, this is the first time I ever saw it. You've given me a good answer that I'll use in every podcast here. Ford. Like I would go back and I would just show myself how I was unconsciously being a d*** because I was afraid that I had to be sarcastic and one up people in order to be safe and loved. And I just give myself a hug and I'd be like, look buddy, you can be kind and you can still have power. So that's what I would change. Speaker 1·58:53I like that. And I don't typically ask the typical podcast questions. Usually you're the first person who's actually probably got some random ones that just say, I just want to see how you're going to respond actually. Speaker 2·59:04Cool man. Speaker 1·59:04I have different ways to go

Peace In A Troubled World

Staples Mill Road Baptist Church

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 5, 2023

25I have said these things to you in figures of speech.The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.26In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf;27for the Father himself loves you, becauseyou have loved me andhave believed that I came from God.[a]28I came from the Father and have come into the world, and nowI am leaving the world and going to the Father. 29His disciples said, Ah, now you are speaking plainly and notusing figurative speech!30Now we know thatyou know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe thatyou came from God.31Jesus answered them,Do you now believe?32Behold,the hour is coming, indeed it has come, whenyou will be scattered, each to his own home, andwill leave me alone.Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me.33I have said these things to you, thatin me you may have peace.In the world you will havetribulation. Buttake heart;I have overcome the world.

god father peace troubled world nowi 25i 28i

Nadia Asparouhova - Tech Elites, Democracy, Open Source, & Philanthropy

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 15, 2022 82:10

Nadia Asparouhova is currently researching what the new tech elite will look like at nadia.xyz. She is also the author of Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software.We talk about how:* American philanthropy has changed from Rockefeller to Effective Altruism* SBF represented the Davos elite rather than the Silicon Valley elite,* Open source software reveals the limitations of democratic participation,* & much more.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Timestamps(0:00:00) - Intro(0:00:26) - SBF was Davos elite(0:09:38) - Gender sociology of philanthropy(0:16:30) - Was Shakespeare an open source project?(0:22:00) - Need for charismatic leaders(0:33:55) - Political reform(0:40:30) - Why didn't previous wealth booms lead to new philanthropic movements?(0:53:35) - Creating a 10,000 year endowment(0:57:27) - Why do institutions become left wing?(1:02:27) - Impact of billionaire intellectual funding(1:04:12) - Value of intellectuals(1:08:53) - Climate, AI, & Doomerism(1:18:04) - Religious philanthropyTranscriptThis transcript was autogenerated and thus may contain errors.Nadia Asparouhova 0:00:00You start with this idea that like democracy is green and like we should have tons of tons of people participating tons of people participate and then it turns out that like most participation is actually just noise and not that useful. That really squarely puts SPF into like the finance crowd much more so than startups or crypto. Founders will always talk about like building and like startups are like so important or whatever and like what are all of them doing in their spare time? They're like reading books. They're reading essays and like and then those like books and essays influence how they think about stuff. Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:26Okay, today I have the pleasure of talking with Nadia Asperova. She is previously the author of Working in Public, the Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software and she is currently researching what the new tech elite will look like. Nadia, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Yeah, okay, so this is a perfect timing obviously given what's been happening with SPF. How much do you think SPF was motivated by effective altruism? Where do you place them in the whole dimensionality of idea machines and motivations? Nadia Asparouhova 0:01:02Yeah, I mean, I know there's sort of like conflicting accounts going around. Like, I mean, just from my sort of like character study or looking at SPF, it seems pretty clear to me that he is sort of inextricably tied to the concepts of utilitarianism that then motivate effective altruism. The difference for me in sort of like where I characterize effective altruism is I think it's much closer to sort of like finance Wall Street elite mindset than it is to startup mindset, even though a lot of people associate effective altruism with tech people. So yeah, to me, like that really squarely puts SPF in sort of like the finance crowd much more so than startups or crypto. And I think that's something that gets really misunderstood about him. Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:44Interesting. Yeah, I find that interesting because if you think of Jeff Bezos, when he started Amazon, he wasn't somebody like John Perry Barlow, who was just motivated by the free philosophy of the internet. You know, he saw a graph of internet usage going up into the right and he's like, I should build a business on top of this. And in a sort of loopholy way, try to figure out like, what is the thing that is that is the first thing you would want to put a SQL database on top of to ship and produce? And I think that's what books was the answer. So and obviously, he also came from a hedge fund, right? Would you play somebody like him also in the old finance crowd rather than as a startup founder? Nadia Asparouhova 0:02:22Yeah, it's kind of a weird one because he's both associated with the early computing revolution, but then also AWS was sort of like what kicked off all of the 2010s sort of startup. And I think in the way that he's started thinking about his public legacy and just from sort of his public behavior, I think he fits much more squarely now in that sort of tech startup elite mindset of the 2010s crowd more so than the Davos elite crowd of the 2000s. Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:47What in specific are you referring to? Nadia Asparouhova 0:02:49Well, he's come out and been like sort of openly critical about a lot of like Davos type institutions. He kind of pokes fun at mainstream media and for not believing in him not believing in AWS. And I think he's because he sort of like spans across like both of these generations, he's been able to see the evolution of like how maybe like his earlier peers function versus the sort of second cohort of peers that he came across. But to me, he seems much more like, much more of the sort of like startup elite mindset. And I can kind of back up a little bit there. But what I associate with the Davos Wall Street kind of crowd is much more of this focus on quantitative thinking, measuring efficiency. And then also this like globalist mindset, like I think that the vision that they want to ensure for the world is this idea of like a very interconnected world where we, you know, sort of like the United Nations kind of mindset. And that is really like literally what the Davos gathering is. Whereas Bezos from his actions today feels much closer to the startup, like Y Combinator post AWS kind of mindset of founders that were really made their money by taking these non-obvious bets on talented people. So they were much less focused on credentialism. They were much more into this idea of meritocracy. I think we sort of forget like how commonplace this trope is of like, you know, the young founder in a dorm room. And that was really popularized by the 2010s cohort of the startup elite of being someone that may have like absolutely no skills, no background in industry, but can somehow sort of like turn the entire industry over on its head. And I think that was sort of like the unique insight of the tech startup crowd. And yeah, when I think about just sort of like some of the things that Bezos is doing now, it feels like she identifies with that much more strongly of being this sort of like lone cowboy or having this like one talented person with really great ideas who can sort of change the world. I think about the, what is it called? The Altos Institute or the new like science initiative that he put out where he was recruiting these like scientists from academic institutions and paying them really high salaries just to attract like the very best top scientists around the world. That's much more of that kind of mindset than it is about like putting faith in sort of like existing institutions, which is what we would see from more of like a Davos kind of mindset. Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:16Interesting. Do you think that in the future, like the kids of today's tech billionaires will be future aristocrats? So effective altruism will be a sort of elite aristocratic philosophy. They'll be like tomorrow's Rockefellers. Nadia Asparouhova 0:05:30Yeah, I kind of worry about that actually. I think of there as being like within the US, we were kind of lucky in that we have these two different types of elites. We have the aristocratic elites and we have meritocratic elites. Most other countries I think basically just have aristocratic elites, especially comparing like the US to Britain in this way. And so in the aristocratic model, your wealth and your power is sort of like conferred to you by previous generations. You just kind of like inherit it from your parents or your family or whomever. And the upside of that, if there is an upside, is that you get really socialized into this idea of what does it mean to be a public steward? What does it mean to think of yourself and your responsibility to the rest of society as a privileged elite person? In the US, we have this really great thing where you can kind of just, you know, we have the American dream, right? So lots of people that didn't grow up with money can break into the elite ranks by doing something that makes them really successful. And that's like a really special thing about the US. So we have this whole class of meritocratic elites who may not have aristocratic backgrounds, but ended up doing something within their lifetimes that made them successful. And so, yeah, I think it's a really cool thing. The downside of that being that you don't really get like socialized into what does it mean to have this fortune and do something interesting with your money. You don't have this sort of generational benefit that the aristocratic elites have of presiding over your land or whatever you want to call it, where you're sort of learning how to think about yourself in relation to the rest of society. And so it's much easier to just kind of like hoard your wealth or whatever. And so when you think about sort of like what are the next generations, the children of the meritocratic elites going to look like or what are they going to do, it's very easy to imagine kind of just becoming aristocratic elites in the sense of like, yeah, they're just going to like inherit the money from their families. And they haven't also really been socialized into like how to think about their role in society. And so, yeah, all the meritocratic elites eventually turn into aristocratic elites, which is where I think you start seeing this trend now towards people wanting to sort of like spend down their fortunes within their lifetime or within a set number of decades after they die because they kind of see what happened in previous generations and are like, oh, I don't want to do that. Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:41Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. You mentioned that the aristocratic elites have the feel that they have the responsibility to give back, I guess, more so than the meritocratic elites. But I believe that in the U.S., the amount of people who give to philanthropy and the total amount they give is higher than in Europe, right, where they probably have a higher ratio of aristocratic elites. Wouldn't you expect the opposite if the aristocratic elites are the ones that are, you know, inculcated to give back? Nadia Asparouhova 0:08:11Well, I assume like most of the people that are the figures about sort of like Americans giving back is spread across like all Americans, not just the wealthiest. Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:19Yeah. So you would predict that among the top 10 percent of Americans, there's less philanthropy than the top 10 percent of Europeans? Uh, there's... Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question. I guess, does the ratio of meritocratic to aristocratic elites change how much philanthropy there is among the elites? Nadia Asparouhova 0:08:45Yeah, I mean, like here we have much more of a culture of like even among aristocratic elites, this idea of like institution building or like large donations to like build institutions, whereas in Europe, a lot of the public institutions are created by government. And there's sort of this mentality of like private citizens don't experiment with public institutions. That's the government's job. And you see that sort of like pervasively throughout all of like European cultures. Like when we want something to change in public society, we look to government to like regulate or change it. Whereas in the U.S., it's kind of much more like choose your own adventure. And we don't really see the government as like the sole provider or shaper of public institutions. We also look at private citizens and like there's so many things that like public institutions that we have now that were not started by government, but were started by private philanthropists. And that's like a really unusual thing about the U.S. Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:39There's this common pattern in philanthropy where a guy will become a billionaire, and then his wife will be heavily involved with or even potentially in charge of, you know, the family's philanthropic efforts. And there's many examples of this, right? Like Bill and Melinda Gates, you know, Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And Dustin Moskovitz. So what is the consequence of this? How is philanthropy, the causes and the foundations, how are they different because of this pattern? Nadia Asparouhova 0:10:15Well, I mean, I feel like we see that pattern, like the problem is that what even is philanthropy is changing very quickly. So we can say historically that, not even historically, in recent history, in recent decades, that has probably been true. That wasn't true in say like late 1800s, early 1900s. It was, you know, Carnegie and Rockefeller were the ones that were actually doing their own philanthropy, not their spouses. So I'd say it's a more recent trend. But now I think we're also seeing this thing where like a lot of wealthy people are not necessarily doing their philanthropic activities through foundations anymore. And that's true both within like traditional philanthropy sector and sort of like the looser definition of what we might consider to be philanthropy, depending on how you define it, which I kind of more broadly want to define as like the actions of elites that are sort of like, you know, public facing activities. But like even within sort of traditional philanthropy circles, we have like, you know, the 5.1c3 nonprofit, which is, you know, traditionally how people, you know, house all their money in a foundation and then they do their philanthropic activities out of that. But in more recent years, we've seen this trend towards like LLCs. So Emerson Collective, I think, might have been maybe the first one to do it. And that was Steve Jobs' Philanthropic Foundation. And then Mark Zuckerberg with Chan Zuckerberg Initiative also used an LLC. And then since then, a lot of other, especially within sort of like tech wealth, we've seen that move towards people using LLCs instead of 5.1c3s because they, it just gives you a lot more flexibility in the kinds of things you can fund. You don't just have to fund other nonprofits. And they also see donor advised funds. So DAFs, which are sort of this like hacky workaround to foundations as well. So I guess point being that like this sort of mental model of like, you know, one person makes a ton of money and then their spouse kind of directs these like nice, feel good, like philanthropic activities, I think is like, may not be the model that we continue to move forward on. And I'm kind of hopeful or curious to see like, what does a return to like, because we've had so many new people making a ton of money in the last 10 years or so, we might see this return to sort of like the Gilded Age style of philanthropy where people are not necessarily just like forming a philanthropic foundation and looking for the nicest causes to fund, but are actually just like thinking a little bit more holistically about like, how do I help build and create like a movement around a thing that I really care about? How do I think more broadly around like funding companies and nonprofits and individuals and like doing lots of different, different kinds of activities? Because I think like the broader goal that like motivates at least like the new sort of elite classes to want to do any of this stuff at all. I don't really think philanthropy is about altruism. I just, I think like the term philanthropy is just totally fraud and like refers to too many different things and it's not very helpful. But I think like the part that I'm interested in at least is sort of like what motivates elites to go from just sort of like making a lot of money and then like thinking about themselves to them thinking about sort of like their place in broader public society. And I think that starts with thinking about how do I control like media, academia, government are sort of like the three like arms of the public sector. And we think of it in that way a little bit more broadly where it's really much more about sort of like maintaining control over your own power, more so than sort of like this like altruistic kind of, you know, whitewash. Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:41Yeah. Nadia Asparouhova 0:13:42Then it becomes like, you know, there's so many other like creative ways to think about like how that might happen. Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:49That's, that's, that's really interesting. That's a, yeah, that's a really interesting way of thinking about what it is you're doing with philanthropy. Isn't the word noble descended from a word that basically means to give alms to people like if you're in charge of them, you will give alms to them. And in a way, I mean, it might have been another word I'm thinking of, but in a way, yeah, a part of what motivates altruism, not obviously all of it, but part of it is that, yeah, you influence and power. Not even in a necessarily negative connotation, but that's definitely what motivates altruism. So having that put square front and center is refreshing and honest, actually. Nadia Asparouhova 0:14:29Yeah, I don't, I really don't see it as like a negative thing at all. And I think most of the like, you know, writing and journalism and academia that focuses on philanthropy tends to be very wealth critical. I'm not at all, like I personally don't feel wealth critical at all. I think like, again, sort of returning to this like mental model of like aristocratic and meritocratic elites, aristocratic elites are able to sort of like pass down, like encode what they're supposed to be doing in each generation because they have this kind of like familial ties. And I think like on the meritocratic side, like if you didn't have any sort of language around altruism or public stewardship, then like, it's like, you need to kind of create that narrative for the meritocratically or else, you know, there's just like nothing to hold on to. So I think like, it makes sense to talk in those terms. Andrew Carnegie being sort of the father of modern philanthropy in the US, like, wrote these series of essays about wealth that were like very influential and where he sort of talks about this like moral obligation. And I think like, really, it was kind of this like, a quiet way for him to, even though it was ostensibly about sort of like giving back or, you know, helping lift up the next generation of people, the next generation of entrepreneurs. Like, I think it really was much more of a protective stance of saying, like, if he doesn't frame it in this way, then people are just going to knock down the concept of wealth altogether. Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's really interesting. And it's interesting, in which cases this kind of influence has been successful and worse not. When Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post, has there been any counterfactual impact on how the Washington Post has run as a result? I doubt it. But you know, when Musk takes over Twitter, I guess it's a much more expensive purchase. We'll see what the influence is negative or positive. But it's certainly different than what Twitter otherwise would have been. So control over media, it's, I guess it's a bigger meme now. Let me just take a digression and ask about open source for a second. So based on your experience studying these open source projects, do you find the theory that Homer and Shakespeare were basically container words for these open source repositories that stretched out through centuries? Do you find that more plausible now, rather than them being individuals, of course? Do you find that more plausible now, given your, given your study of open source? Sorry, what did? Nadia Asparouhova 0:16:49Less plausible. What did? Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:51Oh, okay. So the idea is that they weren't just one person. It was just like a whole bunch of people throughout a bunch of centuries who composed different parts of each story or composed different stories. Nadia Asparouhova 0:17:02The Nicholas Berbaki model, same concept of, you know, a single mathematician who's actually comprised of like lots of different. I think it's actually the opposite would be sort of my conclusion. We think of open source as this very like collective volunteer effort. And I think, use that as an excuse to not really contribute back to open source or not really think about like how open source projects are maintained. Because we were like, you know, you kind of have this bystander effect where you're like, well, you know, someone's taking care of it. It's volunteer oriented. Like, of course, there's someone out there taking care of it. But in reality, it actually turns out it is just one person. So maybe it's a little bit more like a Wizard of Oz type model. It's actually just like one person behind the curtain that's like, you know, doing everything. And you see this huge, you know, grandeur and you think there must be so many people that are behind it. It's one person. Yeah, and I think that's sort of undervalued. I think a lot of the rhetoric that we have about open source is rooted in sort of like early 2000s kind of starry eyed idea about like the power of the internet and the idea of like crowdsourcing and Wikipedia and all this stuff. And then like in reality, like we kind of see this convergence from like very broad based collaborative volunteer efforts to like narrowing down to kind of like single creators. And I think a lot of like, you know, single creators are the people that are really driving a lot of the internet today and a lot of cultural production. Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:21Oh, that's that's super fascinating. Does that in general make you more sympathetic towards the lone genius view of accomplishments in history? Not just in literature, I guess, but just like when you think back to how likely is it that, you know, Newton came up with all that stuff on his own versus how much was fed into him by, you know, the others around him? Nadia Asparouhova 0:18:40Yeah, I think so. I feel I've never been like a big, like, you know, great founder theory kind of person. I think I'm like, my true theory is, I guess that ideas are maybe some sort of like sentient, like, concept or virus that operates outside of us. And we are just sort of like the vessels through which like ideas flow. So in that sense, you know, it's not really about any one person, but I do think I think I tend to lean like in terms of sort of like, where does creative, like, creative effort come from? I do think a lot of it comes much more from like a single individual than it does from with some of the crowds. But everything just serves like different purposes, right? Like, because I think like, within open source, it's like, not all of open source maintenance work is creative. In fact, most of it is pretty boring and dredgerous. And that's the stuff that no one wants to do. And that, like, one person kind of got stuck with doing and that's really different from like, who created a certain open source projects, which is a little bit more of that, like, creative mindset. Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:44Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. Do you think more projects in open source, so just take a popular repository, on average, do you think that these repositories would be better off if, let's say a larger percentage of them where pull requests were closed and feature requests were closed? You can look at the code, but you can't interact with it or its creators anyway? Should more repositories have this model? Yeah, I definitely think so. I think a lot of people would be much happier that way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's interesting to think about the implications of this for other areas outside of code, right? Which is where it gets really interesting. I mean, in general, there's like a discussion. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Nadia Asparouhova 0:20:25Yeah, I mean, that's basically what's for the writing of my book, because I was like, okay, I feel like whatever's happening open source right now, you start with this idea that like democracy is green, and like, we should have tons and tons of people participating, tons of people participate, and then it turns out that like, most participation is actually just noise and not that useful. And then it ends up like scaring everyone away. And in the end, you just have like, you know, one or a small handful of people that are actually doing all the work while everyone else is kind of like screaming around them. And this becomes like a really great metaphor for what happens in social media. And the reason I wrote, after I wrote the book, I went and worked at Substack. And, you know, part of it was because I was like, I think the model is kind of converging from like, you know, Twitter being this big open space to like, suddenly everyone is retreating, like, the public space is so hostile that everyone must retreat into like, smaller private spaces. So then, you know, chats became a thing, Substack became a thing. And yeah, I just feel sort of like realistic, right? Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:15That's really fascinating. Yeah, the Straussian message in that book is very strong. But in general, there's, when you're thinking about something like corporate governance, right? There's a big question. And I guess even more interestingly, when you think if you think DAOs are going to be a thing, and you think that we will have to reinvent corporate governance from the ground up, there's a question of, should these be run like monarchy? Should they be sort of oligarchies where the board is in control? Should they be just complete democracies where everybody gets one vote on what you do at the next, you know, shareholder meeting or something? And this book and that analysis is actually pretty interesting to think about. Like, how should corporations be run differently, if at all? What does it inform how you think the average corporation should be run? Nadia Asparouhova 0:21:59Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think we are seeing a little bit, I'm not a corporate governance expert, but I do feel like we're seeing a little of this like, backlash against, like, you know, shareholder activism and like, extreme focus on sort of like DEI and boards and things like that. And like, I think we're seeing a little bit of people starting to like take the reins and take control again, because they're like, ah, that doesn't really work so well, it turns out. I think DAOs are going to learn this hard lesson as well. It's still maybe just too early to say what is happening in DAOs right now. But at least the ones that I've looked at, it feels like there is a very common failure mode of people saying, you know, like, let's just have like, let's have this be super democratic and like, leave it to the crowd to kind of like run this thing and figure out how it works. And it turns out you actually do need a strong leader, even the beginning. And this, this is something I learned just from like, open source projects where it's like, you know, very rarely, or if at all, do you have a strong leader? If at all, do you have a project that starts sort of like leaderless and faceless? And then, you know, usually there is some strong creator, leader or influential figure that is like driving the project forward for a certain period of time. And then you can kind of get to the point when you have enough of an active community that maybe that leader takes a step back and lets other people take over. But it's not like you can do that off day one. And that's sort of this open question that I have for, for crypto as an industry more broadly, because I think like, if I think about sort of like, what is defining each of these generations of people that are, you know, pushing forward new technological paradigms, I mentioned that like Wall Street finance mindset is very focused on like globalism and on this sort of like efficiency quantitative mindset. You have the tech Silicon Valley Y company or kind of generation that is really focused on top talent. And the idea this sort of like, you know, founder mindset, the power of like individuals breaking institutions, and then you have like the crypto mindset, which is this sort of like faceless leaderless, like governed by protocol and by code mindset, which is like intriguing to me. But I have a really hard time squaring it with seeing like, in some sense, open source was the experiment that started playing out, you know, 20 years before then. And some things are obviously different in crypto, because tokenization completely changes the incentive system for contributing and maintaining crypto projects versus like traditional open source projects. But in the end, also like humans are humans. And like, I feel like there are a lot of lessons to be learned from open source of like, you know, they also started out early on as being very starry eyed about the power of like, hyper democratic regimes. And it turned out like, that just like doesn't work in practice. And so like, how is CryptoGhost or like Square that? I'm just, yeah, very curious to see what happened. Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:41Yeah, super fascinating. That raises an interesting question, by the way, you've written about idea machines, and you can explain that concept while you answer this question. But do you think that movements can survive without a charismatic founder who is both alive and engaged? So once Will McCaskill dies, would you be shorting effective altruism? Or if like Tyler Cowen dies, would you be short progress studies? Or do you think that, you know, once you get a movement off the ground, you're like, okay, I'm gonna be shorting altruism. Nadia Asparouhova 0:25:08Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, like, I don't think there's some perfect template, like each of these kind of has its own sort of unique quirks and characteristics in them. I guess, yeah, back up a little bit. Idea machines is this concept I have around what the transition from we were talking before about, so like traditional 5.1c3 foundations as vehicles for philanthropy, what does the modern version of that look like that is not necessarily encoded in institution? And so I had this term idea machines, which is sort of this different way of thinking about like, turning ideas into outcomes where you have a community that forms around a shared set of values and ideas. So yeah, you mentioned like progress studies is an example of that, or effective altruism example, eventually, that community gets capitalized by some funders, and then it starts to be able to develop an agenda and then like, actually start building like, you know, operational outcomes and like, turning those ideas into real world initiatives. And remind me of your question again. Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:06Yeah, so once the charismatic founder dies of a movement, is a movement basically handicapped in some way? Like, maybe it'll still be a thing, but it's never going to reach the heights it could have reached if that main guy had been around? Nadia Asparouhova 0:26:20I think there are just like different shapes and classifications of like different, different types of communities here. So like, and I'm just thinking back again to sort of like different types of open source projects where it's not like they're like one model that fits perfectly for all of them. So I think there are some communities where it's like, yeah, I mean, I think effective altruism is maybe a good example of that where, like, the community has grown so much that I like if all their leaders were to, you know, knock on wood, disappear tomorrow or something that like, I think the movement would still keep going. There are enough true believers, like even within the community. And I think that's the next order of that community that like, I think that would just continue to grow. Whereas you have like, yeah, maybe it's certain like smaller or more nascent communities that are like, or just like communities that are much more like oriented around, like, a charismatic founder that's just like a different type where if you lose that leader, then suddenly, you know, the whole thing falls apart because they're much more like these like cults or religions. And I don't think it makes one better, better or worse. It's like the right way to do is probably like Bitcoin, where you have a charismatic leader for life because that leader is more necessarily, can't go away, can't ever die. But you still have the like, you know, North Stars and like that. Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:28Yeah. It is funny. I mean, a lot of prophets have this property of you're not really sure what they believed in. So people with different temperaments can project their own preferences onto him. Somebody like Jesus, right? It's, you know, you can be like a super left winger and believe Jesus did for everything you believe in. You can be a super right winger and believe the same. Yeah. Go ahead. Nadia Asparouhova 0:27:52I think there's value in like writing cryptically more. Like I think about like, I think Curtis Yarvin has done a really good job of this where, you know, intentionally or not, but because like his writing is so cryptic and long winded. And like, it's like the Bible where you can just kind of like pour over endlessly being like, what does this mean? What does this mean? And in a weird, you know, you're always told to write very clearly, you're told to write succinctly, but like, it's actually in a weird way, you can be much more effective by being very long winded and not obvious in what you're saying. Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:20Yes, which actually raises an interesting question that I've been wondering about. There have been movements, I guess, if I did altruism is a good example that have been focused on community building in a sort of like explicit way. And then there's other movements where they have a charismatic founder. And moreover, this guy, he doesn't really try to recruit people. I'm thinking of somebody like Peter Thiel, for example, right? He goes on, like once every year or two, he'll go on a podcast and have this like really cryptic back and forth. And then just kind of go away in a hole for a few months or a few years. And I'm curious, which one you think is more effective, given the fact that you're not really competing for votes. So absolute number of people is not what you care about. It's not clear what you care about. But you do want to have more influence among the elites who matter in like politics and tech as well. So anyways, which just your thoughts on those kinds of strategies, explicitly trying to community build versus just kind of projecting out there in a sort of cryptic way? Nadia Asparouhova 0:29:18Yeah, I mean, I definitely being somewhat cryptic myself. I favor the cryptic methodology. But I mean, yeah, I mean, you mentioned Peter Thiel. I think like the Thielverse is probably like the most, like one of the most influential things. In fact, that is hard. It is partly so effective, because it is hard to even define what it is or wrap your head around that you just know that sort of like, every interesting person you meet somehow has some weird connection to, you know, Peter Thiel. And it's funny. But I think this is sort of that evolution from the, you know, 5163 Foundation to the like idea machine implicit. And that is this this switch from, you know, used to start the, you know, Nadia Asparova Foundation or whatever. And it was like, you know, had your name on it. And it was all about like, what do I as a funder want to do in the world, right? And you spend all this time doing this sort of like classical, you know, research, going out into the field, talking to people and you sit and you think, okay, like, here's a strategy I'm going to pursue. And like, ultimately, it's like, very, very donor centric in this very explicit way. And so within traditional philanthropy, you're seeing this sort of like, backlash against that. In like, you know, straight up like nonprofit land, where now you're seeing the locus of power moving from being very donor centric to being sort of like community centric and people saying like, well, we don't really want the donors telling us what to do, even though it's also their money. Like, you know, instead, let's have this be driven by the community from the ground up. That's maybe like one very literal reaction against that, like having the donor as sort of the central power figure. But I think idea machines are kind of like the like, maybe like the more realistic or effective answer in that like, the donor is still like without the presence of a funder, like, community is just a community. They're just sitting around and talking about ideas of like, what could possibly happen? Like, they don't have any money to make anything happen. But like, I think like really effective funders are good at being sort of like subtle and thoughtful about like, like, you know, no one wants to see like the Peter Thiel foundation necessarily. That's just like, it's so like, not the style of how it works. But you know, you meet so many people that are being funded by the same person, like just going out and sort of aggressively like arming the rebels is a more sort of like, yeah, just like distributed decentralized way of thinking about like spreading one's power, instead of just starting a fund. Instead of just starting a foundation. Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:34Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if you look at the life of influential politicians, somebody like LBJ, or Robert Moses, it's how much of it was like calculated and how much of it was just like decades of building up favors and building up connections in a way that had no definite and clear plan, but it just you're hoping that someday you can call upon them and sort of like Godfather way. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And by the way, this is also where your work on open source comes in, right? Like, there's this idea that in the movement, you know, everybody will come in with their ideas, and you can community build your way towards, you know, what should be funded. And, yeah, I'm inclined to believe that it's probably like a few people who have these ideas about what should be funded. And the rest of it is either just a way of like building up engagement and building up hype. Or, or I don't know, or maybe just useless, but what are your thoughts on it? Nadia Asparouhova 0:32:32You know, I decided I was like, I am like, really very much a tech startup person and not a crypto person, even though I would very much like to be fun, because I'm like, ah, this is the future. And there's so many interesting things happening. And I'm like, for the record, not at all like down in crypto, I think it is like the next big sort of movement of things that are happening. But when I really come down to like the mindset, it's like I am so in that sort of like, top talent founder, like power of the individual to break institutions mindset, like that just resonates with me so much more than the like, leaderless, faceless, like, highly participatory kind of thing. And again, like I am very open to that being true, like I maybe I'm so wrong on that. I just like, I have not yet seen evidence that that works in the world. I see a lot of rhetoric about how that could work or should work. We have this sort of like implicit belief that like, direct democracy is somehow like the greatest thing to aspire towards. But like, over and over we see evidence that like that doesn't that just like doesn't really work. It doesn't mean we have to throw out the underlying principles or values behind that. Like I still really believe in meritocracy. I really believe in like access to opportunity. I really believe in like pursuit of happiness. Like to me, those are all like very like American values. But like, I think that where that breaks is the idea that like that has to happen through these like highly participatory methods. I just like, yeah, I haven't seen really great evidence of that being that working. Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:56What does that imply about how you think about politics or at least political structures? You think it would you you elect a mayor, but like, just forget no participation. He gets to do everything he wants to do for four years and you can get rid of in four years. But until then, no community meetings. Well, what does that imply about how you think cities and states and countries should be run? Nadia Asparouhova 0:34:17Um, that's a very complicated thoughts on that. I mean, I, I think it's also like, everyone has the fantasy of when it'd be so nice if there were just one person in charge. I hate all this squabbling. It would just be so great if we could just, you know, have one person just who has exactly the views that I have and put them in charge and let them run things. That would be very nice. I just, I do also think it's unrealistic. Like, I don't think I'm, you know, maybe like modernity sounds great in theory, but in practice just doesn't like I really embrace and I think like there is no perfect governance design either in the same way that there's no perfect open source project designer or whatever else we're talking about. Um, uh, like, yeah, it really just depends like what is like, what is your population comprised of? There are some very small homogenous populations that can be very easily governed by like, you know, a small government or one person or whatever, because there isn't that much dissent or difference. Everyone is sort of on the same page. America is the extreme opposite in that angle. And I'm always thinking about America because like, I'm American and I love America. But like, everyone is trying to solve the governance question for America. And I think like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, we're an extremely heterogeneous population. There are a lot of competing world views. I may not agree with all the views of everyone in America, but like I also, like, I don't want just one person that represents my personal views. I would focus more like effectiveness in governance than I would like having like, you know, just one person in charge or something that like, I don't mind if someone disagrees with my views as long as they're good at what they do, if that makes sense. So I think the questions are like, how do we improve the speed at which like our government works and the efficacy with which it works? Like, I think there's so much room to be made room for improvement there versus like, I don't know how much like I really care about like changing the actual structure of our government. Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:27Interesting. Going back to open source for a second. Why do these companies release so much stuff in open source for free? And it's probably literally worth trillions of dollars of value in total. And they just release it out and free and many of them are developer tools that other developers use to build competitors for these big tech companies that are releasing these open source tools. Why did they do it? What explains it? Nadia Asparouhova 0:36:52I mean, I think it depends on the specific project, but like a lot of times, these are projects that were developed internally. It's the same reason of like, I think code and writing are not that dissimilar in this way of like, why do people spend all this time writing, like long posts or papers or whatever, and then just release them for free? Like, why not put everything behind a paywall? And I think the answer is probably still in both cases where like mindshare is a lot more interesting than, you know, your literal IP. And so, you know, you put out, you write these like long reports or you tweet or whatever, like you spend all this time creating content for free and putting it out there because you're trying to capture mindshare. Same thing with companies releasing open source projects. Like a lot of times they really want like other developers to come in and contribute to them. They want to increase their status as like an open source friendly kind of company or company or show like, you know, here's the type of code that we write internally and showing that externally. They want to like recruiting is, you know, the hardest thing for any company, right? And so being able to attract the right kinds of developers or people that, you know, might fit really well into their developer culture just matters a lot more. And they're just doing that instead of with words or doing that with code. Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:57You've talked about the need for more idea machines. You're like dissatisfied with the fact that effective altruism is a big game in town. Is there some idea or nascent movement where I mean, other than progress ideas, but like something where you feel like this could be a thing, but it just needs some like charismatic founder to take it to the next level? Or even if it doesn't exist yet, it just like a set of ideas around this vein is like clearly something there is going to exist. You know what I mean? Is there anything like that that you notice? Nadia Asparouhova 0:38:26I only had a couple of different possibilities in that post. Yeah, I think like the progress sort of meme is probably the largest growing contender that I would see right now. I think there's another one right now around sort of like the new right. That's not even like the best term necessarily for it, but there's sort of like a shared set of values there that are maybe starting with like politics, but like ideally spreading to like other areas of public influence. So I think like those are a couple of like the bigger movements that I see right now. And then there's like smaller stuff too. Like I mentioned, like tools for thought in that post where like that's never going to be a huge idea machine. But it's one where you have a lot of like interesting, talented people that are thinking about sort of like future of computing. And until maybe more recently, like there just hasn't been a lot of funding available and the funding is always really uneven and unpredictable. And so that's to me an example of like, you know, a smaller community that like just needs that sort of like extra influx to turn a bunch of abstract ideas into practice. But yeah, I mean, I think like, yeah, there's some like the bigger ones that I see right now. I think there is just so much more potential to do more, but I wish people would just think a little bit more creatively because, yeah, I really do think like effective altruism kind of becomes like the default option for a lot of people. Then they're kind of vaguely dissatisfied with it and they don't like think about like, well, what do I actually really care about in the world and how do I want to put that forward? Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:53Yeah, there's also the fact that effective altruism has this like very fit memeplex in the sense that it's like a polytheistic religion where if you have a cause area, then you don't have your own movement. You just have a cause area within our broader movement, right? It just like adopts your gods into our movement. Nadia Asparouhova 0:40:15Yeah, that's the same thing I see like people trying to lobby for effective altruism to care about their cause area, but then it's like you could just start a separate. Like if you can't get EA to care about, then why not just like start another one somewhere else? Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:28Yeah, so, you know, it's interesting to me that the wealth boom in Silicon Valley and then tech spheres has led to the sound growth of philanthropy, but that hasn't always been the case. Even in America, like a lot of people became billionaires after energy markets were deregulated in the 80s and the 90s. And then there wasn't, and obviously the hub of that was like the Texas area or, you know, and as far as I'm aware, there wasn't like a boom of philanthropy motivated by the ideas that people in that region had. What's different about Silicon Valley? Why are they, or do you actually think that these other places have also had their own booms of philanthropic giving? Nadia Asparouhova 0:41:11I think you're right. Yeah, I would make the distinction between like being wealthy is not the same as being elite or whatever other term you want to use there. And so yeah, there are definitely like pockets of what's called like more like local markets of wealth, like, yeah, Texas oil or energy billionaires that tend to operate kind of just more in their own sphere. And a lot of, if you look at any philanthropic, like a lot of them will be philanthropically active, but they only really focus on their geographic area. But there's sort of this difference. And I think this is part of where it comes from the question of like, you know, like what forces someone to actually like do something more public facing with their power. And I think that comes from your power being sort of like threatened. That's like one aspect I would say of that. So like tech has only really become a lot more active in the public sphere outside of startups after the tech backlash of the mid 2010s. And you can say a similar thing kind of happened with the Davos elite as well. And also for the Gilded Age cohort of wealth. And so yeah, when you have sort of, you're kind of like, you know, building in your own little world. And like, you know, we had literally like Silicon Valley where everyone was kind of like sequestered off and just thinking about startups and thinking themselves of like, tech is essentially like an industry, just like any other sort of, you know, entertainment or whatever. And we're just kind of happy building over here. And then it was only when sort of like the Panopticon like turned its head towards tech and started and they had this sort of like onslaught of critiques coming from sort of like mainstream discourse where they went, oh, like what is my place in this world? And, you know, if I don't try to like defend that, then I'm going to just kind of, yeah, we're going to lose all that power. So I think that that need to sort of like defend one's power can kind of like prompt that sort of action. The other aspect I'd highlight is just like, I think a lot of elites are driven by these like technological paradigm shifts. So there's this scholar, Carlotta Perrins, who writes about technological revolutions and financial capital. And she identifies like a few different technological revolutions over the last, whatever, hundred plus years that like drove this cycle of, you know, a new technology is invented. It's people are kind of like working on it in this smaller industry sort of way. And then there is some kind of like crazy like public frenzy and then like a backlash. And then from after that, then you have this sort of like focus on public institution building. But she really points out that like not all technology fits into that. Like, not all technology is a paradigm shift. Sometimes technology is just technology. And so, yeah, I think like a lot of wealth might just fall into that category. My third example, by the way, is the Koch family because you had, you know, the Koch brothers, but then like their father was actually the one who like kind of initially made their wealth, but was like very localized in sort of like how he thought about philanthropy. He had his own like, you know, family foundation was just sort of like doing that sort of like, you know, Texas billionaire mindset that we're talking about of, you know, I made a bunch of money. I'm going to just sort of like, yeah, do my local funder activity. It was only the next generation of his children that then like took that wealth and started thinking about like how do we actually like move that onto like a more elite stage and thinking about like their influence in the media. But like you can see there's like two clear generations within the same family. Like one has this sort of like local wealth mindset and one of them has the more like elite wealth mindset. And yeah, you can kind of like ask yourself, why did that switch happen? But yeah, it's clearly about more than just money. It's also about intention. Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:51Yeah, that's really interesting. Well, it's interesting because there's, if you identify the current mainstream media as affiliated with like that Davos aristocratic elite, or maybe not aristocratic, but like the Davos groups. Yeah, exactly. There is a growing field of independent media, but you would not identify somebody like Joe Rogan as in the Silicon Valley sphere, right? So there is a new media. I just, I guess these startup people don't have that much influence over them yet. And they feel like, yeah. Nadia Asparouhova 0:45:27I think they're trying to like take that strategy, right? So you have like a bunch of founders like Palmer Luckey and Mark Zuckerberg and Brian Armstrong and whoever else that like will not really talk to mainstream media anymore. They will not get an interview to the New York Times, but they will go to like an individual influencer or an individual creator and they'll do an interview with them. So like when Mark Zuckerberg announced Meta, like he did not get grant interviews to mainstream publications, but he went and talked to like Ben Thompson at Strategory. And so I think there is like, it fits really well with that. Like probably mindset of like, we're not necessarily institution building. We're going to like focus on power of individuals who sort of like defy institutions. And that is kind of like an open question that I have about like, what will the long term influence of the tech elite look like? Because like, yeah, the human history tells us that eventually all individual behaviors kind of get codified into institutions, right? But we're obviously living in a very different time now. And I think like the way that the Davos elite managed to like really codify and extend their influence across all these different sectors was by taking that institutional mindset and, you know, like thinking about sort of like academic institutions and media institutions, all that stuff. If the startup mindset is really inherently like anti-institution and says like, we don't want to build the next Harvard necessarily. We just want to like blow apart the concept of universities whatsoever. Or, you know, we don't want to create a new CNN or a new Fox News. We want to just like fund like individual creators to do that same sort of work, but in this very decentralized way. Like, will that work long term? I don't know. Like, is that just sort of like a temporary state that we're in right now where no one really knows what the next institutions will look like? Or is that really like an important part of this generation where like, we shouldn't be asking the question of like, how do you build a new media network? We should just be saying like, the answer is there is no media network. We just go to like all these individuals instead. Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:31Yeah, that's interesting. What do you make of this idea that I think, let's say, that these idea machines might be limited by the fact that if you're going to start some sort of organization in them, you're very much depending on somebody who has made a lot of money independently to fund you and to grant you approval. And I just have a hard time seeing somebody who is like a Napoleon-like figure being willing long term to live under that arrangement. And that so there'll just be the people who are just have this desire to dominate and be recognized who are probably pretty important to any movement you want to create. They'll just want to go off and just like build a company or something that gives them an independent footing first. And they just won't fall under any umbrella. You know what I mean? Nadia Asparouhova 0:48:27Yeah, I mean, like Dustin Moskovitz, for example, has been funding EA for a really long time and hasn't hasn't walked away necessarily. Yeah. I mean, on the flip side, you can see like SPF carried a lot of a lot of risk because it's your point, I guess, like, you know, you end up relying on this one funder, the one funder disappears and everything else kind of falls apart. I mean, I think like, I don't have any sort of like preciousness attached to the idea of like communities, you know, lasting forever. I think this is like, again, if we're trying to solve for the problem of like what did not work well about 5.1c3 foundations for most of recent history, like part of it was that they're, you know, just meant to live on to perpetuity. Like, why do we still have like, you know, Rockefeller Foundation, there are now actually many different Rockefeller Foundations, but like, why does that even exist? Like, why did that money not just get spent down? And actually, when John D. Rockefeller was first proposing the idea of foundations, he wanted them to be like, to have like a finite end state. So he wanted them to last only like 50 years or 100 years when he was proposing this like federal charter, but that federal charter failed. And so now we have these like state charters and foundations can just exist forever. But like, I think if we want to like improve upon this idea of like, how do we prevent like meritocratic elites from turning into aristocratic elites? How do we like, yeah, how do we actually just like try to do a lot of really interesting stuff in our lifetimes? It's like a very, it's very counterintuitive, because you think about like, leaving a legacy must mean like creating institutions or creating a foundation that lasts forever. And, you know, 200 years from now, there's still like the Nadia Asparuva Foundation out there. But like, if I really think about it, it's like, I would almost rather just do really, really, really good, interesting work in like, 50 years or 20 years or 10 years, and have that be the legacy versus your name kind of getting, you know, submerged over a century of institutional decay and decline. So yeah, I don't like if you know, you have a community that lasts for maybe only last 10 years or something like that, and it's funded for that amount of time, and then it kind of elbows its usefulness and it winds down or becomes less relevant. Like, I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. Of course, like in practice, you know, nothing ever ends that that neatly and that quietly. But, but yeah, I don't think that's a bad thing. Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:44Yeah, yeah. Who are some ethnographers or sociologists from a previous era that have influenced your work? So was there somebody writing about, you know, what it was like to be in a Roman Legion? Or what it was like to work in a factory floor? And you're like, you know what, I want to do that for open source? Or I want to do that for the New Tech Elite? Nadia Asparouhova 0:51:02For open source, I was definitely really influenced by Jane Jacobs and Eleanor Ostrom. I think both had this quality of, so yeah, Eleanor Ostrom was looking at examples of common pool resources, like fisheries or forests or whatever. And just like, going and visiting them and spending a lot of time with them and then saying like, actually, I don't think tragedy of the commons is like a real thing, or it's not the only outcome that we can possibly have. And so sometimes commons can be managed, like perfectly sustainably. And it's not necessarily true that everyone just like treats them very extractively. And just like wrote about what she saw. And same with Jane Jacobs sort of looking at cities as someone who lives in one, right? Like she didn't have any fancy credentials or anything like that. She was just like, I live in the city and I'm looking around and this idea of like, top down urban planning, where you have like someone trying to design this perfect city that like, doesn't change and doesn't yield to its people. It just seems completely unrealistic. And the style that both of them take in their writing is very, it just it starts from them just like, observing what they see and then like, trying to write about it. And I just, yeah, that's, that's the style that I really want to emulate. Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:12Interesting. Nadia Asparouhova 0:52:13Yeah. I think for people to just be talking to like, I don't know, like Chris just like just talking to like open source developers, turns out you can learn a lot more from that than just sitting around like thinking about what open source developers might be thinking about. But... Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:25I have this, I have had this idea of not even for like writing it out loud, but just to understand how the world works. Just like shadowing people who are in just like a random position, they don't have to be a lead in any way, but just like a person who's the personal assistant to somebody influential, how to decide whose emails they forward, how they decide what's the priority, or somebody who's just like an accountant for a big company, right? It's just like, what is involved there? Like, what kinds of we're gonna, you know what I mean? Just like, random people, the line manager at the local factory. I just have no idea how these parts of the world work. And I just want to like, yeah, just shadow them for a day and see like, what happens there. Nadia Asparouhova 0:53:05This is really interesting, because everyone else focuses on sort of like, you know, the big name figure or whatever, but you know, who's the actual gatekeeper there? But yeah, I mean, I've definitely found like, if you just start cold emailing people and talking to them, people are often like, surprisingly, very, very open to being talked to because I don't know, like, most people do not get asked questions about what they do and how they think and stuff. So, you know, you want to realize that dream. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:33So maybe I'm not like John Rockefeller, and that I only want my organization to last for 50 years. I'm sure you've come across these people who have this idea that, you know, I'll let my money compound for like 200 years. And if it just compounds at some reasonable rate, I'll be, it'll be like the most wealthy institution in the world, unless somebody else has the same exact idea. If somebody wanted to do that, but they wanted to hedge for the possibility that there's a war or there's a revolt, or there's some sort of change in law that draws down this wealth. How would you set up a thousand year endowment, basically, is what I'm asking, or like a 500 year endowment? Would you just put it in like a crypto wallet with us? And just, you know what I mean? Like, how would you go about that organizationally? How would you like, that's your goal? I want to have the most influence in 500 years. Nadia Asparouhova 0:54:17Well, I'd worry much less. The question for me is not about how do I make sure that there are assets available to distribute in a thousand years? Because I don't know, just put in stock marketers. You can do some pretty boring things to just like, you know, ensure your assets grow over time. The more difficult question is, how do you ensure that whoever is deciding how to distribute the funds, distributes them in a way that you personally want them to be spent? So Ford Foundation is a really interesting example of this, where Henry Ford created a Ford Foundation shortly before he died, and just pledged a lot of Ford stock to create this foundation and was doing it basically for tax reasons, had no philanthropic. It's just like, this is what we're doing to like, house this wealth over here. And then, you know, passed away, son passed away, and grandson ended up being on the board. But the board ended up being basically like, you know, a bunch of people that Henry Ford certainly would not have ever wanted to be on his board. And so, you know, and you end up seeing like, the Ford Foundation ended up becoming huge influential. I like, I have received money from them. So it's not at all an indictment of sort of like their views or anything like that. It's just much more of like, you know, you had the intent of the original donor, and then you had like, who are all these people that like, suddenly just ended up with a giant pool of capital and then like, decided to spend it however they felt like spending it and the grandson at the time sort of like, famously resigned because he was like, really frustrated and was just like, this is not at all what my family wanted and like, basically like, kicked off the board. So anyway, so that is the question that I would like figure out if I had a thousand year endowment is like, how do I make sure that whomever manages that endowment actually shares my views? One, shares my views, but then also like, how do I even know what we need to care about in a thousand years? Because like, I don't even know what the problems are in a thousand years. And this is why like, I think like, very long term thinking can be a little bit dangerous in this way, because you're sort of like, presuming that you know what even matters then. Whereas I think like, figure out the most impactful things to do is just like, so contextually dependent on like, what is going on at the time. So I can't, I don't know. And there are also foundations where you know, the donor like, writes in the charter like, this money can only be spent on you know, X cause or whatever, but then it just becomes really awkward over time because

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Edward Glaeser - Cities, Terrorism, Housing, & Remote Work

Highland Baptist Church - Sermons

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 28, 2022 57:08

Edward Glaeser is the chair of the Harvard department of economics, and the author of the best books and papers about cities (including Survival of the City and Triumph of the City).He explains why:* Cities are resilient to terrorism, remote work, & pandemics,* Silicon Valley may collapse but the Sunbelt will prosper, * Opioids show UBI is not a solution to AI* & much more!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you enjoy this episode, I would be super grateful if you shared it. Post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast and Mia Aiyana for producing its transcript.Timestamps(0:00:00) - Mars, Terrorism, & Capitals (0:06:32) - Decline, Population Collapse, & Young Men (0:14:44) - Urban Education (0:18:35) - Georgism, Robert Moses, & Too Much Democracy? (0:25:29) - Opioids, Automation, & UBI (0:29:57) - Remote Work, Taxation, & Metaverse (0:42:29) - Past & Future of Silicon Valley (0:48:56) - Housing Reform (0:52:32) - Europe's Stagnation, Mumbai's Safety, & Climate ChangeTranscriptMars, Terrorism, & CapitalsDwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Edward Glaeser, who is the chair of the Harvard Department of Economics, and author of some of the best books and papers about cities. Professor Glazer, thanks for coming on The Lunar Society.Edward Glaeser 0:00:25Oh, thank you so much for having me on! Especially given that The Lunar Society pays homage to one of my favorite moments in urban innovation in Birmingham during the 18th century.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:26Oh wow, I didn't even catch that theme, but that's a great title. My first question is, What advice would you give to Elon Musk about building the first cities on Mars?Edward Glaeser 0:00:35[laughs] That's a great question. I think that demand for urbanism in Mars is going to be relatively limited. Cities are always shaped by the transportation costs that are dominant in the era in which they're created. That both determines the micro-shape of the city and determines its macro future. So cities on Mars are, of course, going to be limited by the likely prohibitive cost of traveling back and forth to the mother planet. But we also have to understand what cars people are going to be using on Mars. I assume these are all going to be Teslas, and everyone is going to be driving around in some appropriate Tesla on Mars. So it's going to be a very car-oriented living experience. I think the best strategy would be to create a fairly flexible plan, much like the 1811 grid plan in New York, that allows entrepreneurs to change land use over time and put a few bets on what's necessary for infrastructure and then just let the city evolve organically. Usually, the best way is to put more trust in individual initiative than central planning–– at least in terms of micromanaging what goes where. Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:58Gotcha. Now, since 9/11, many terrorist groups have obviously intended to cause harm to cities. But by and large, at least in Western countries, they haven't managed to kill off thousands of people like they were able to do during 9/11. What explains this? Do you think cities are just more resilient to these kinds of attacks than we would have otherwise thought? Or are the terrorists just not being creative enough?Edward Glaeser 0:02:20I don't know. There's also the question of what the objectives are. Even for the 9/11 terrorists, their end game was not to kill urbanites in America. It was to effect change in Saudi Arabia or in the Middle East more generally. We've also protected our cities better. If you think about it, two things go on simultaneously when you collect economic activity in one place in terms of defense: one of which is they become targets–– and of course, that's what we saw on 9/11; it's hard to think of a symbol that's clearer than those twin towers. But at the same time, they're also a defensible space. The origin of the urban agglomeration and use for cities and towns was the fact that they could be walled settlements. Those walls that brought together people collectively for defense are the ultimate reason why these towns came about. The walls provided protection.I think the same thing has been playing out with cities over the past 20 years. Just as New York was a target, it was also a place where post-2001, the city ramped up its anti-terrorism efforts. They put together a massive group as London had previously done. The cameras that implemented congestion pricing in London were the same cameras that used against the Irish terrorists. So both effects went on. I think we've been fortunate and that we've shown the strength of cities in terms of protecting themselves.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:52If you look throughout ancient world history, there are so many examples of empires that are basically synonymous with their capital cities (ex. Rome or Athens, or Sparta). But today, you would never think of America as the ‘Washingtonian Empire.' What is the explanation for why the capital city has become much less salient in terms of the overall nation? Is there a Coasian answer here?Edward Glaeser 0:04:20There are specific things that went on with English offshoot colonies where in many cases, because they recognized the tendency of the capital city to attract lots of excess goodies that had been taken from elsewhere in the country, they located the capital city in a remote place. It's actually part of the story of the Hamilton musical in The Room Where it Happens. Part of the deal was about moving the capital of the US to a relatively remote Virginia location rather than having it be in Philadelphia, New York. That was partially to reflect the fact that the South needed to be protected against all of the extra assets going to New York and Philadelphia.So, whether or not this is Canberra or Ottawa, you see all of these English offshoot places without their capitals in the big metropoles. Whereas traditionally, what's happened in these places that have been around for centuries, is that even if the capital didn't start off as the largest city, it became the largest city because centuries of French leaders thought their business was to take wealth from elsewhere in France and make Paris great. I think the French Empire was as synonymous with Paris as most of those ancient empires were with their capital city. I guess the question I could throw back to you is, what are places where this is not true? Moscow, St. Peter's, and Beijing are examples. Do we think that Beijing is less synonymous with China than the Roman Empire is with Rome? Maybe a little–– possibly just because China is so big and Beijing is a relatively small share of the overall population of China. But it's more so certainly than Washington, D.C. is with the U.S. Decline, Population Collapse, & Young MenDwarkesh Patel 0:06:32That's a really interesting answer. Once a city goes through a period of decline (maybe an important industry moved out, or maybe it's had a sequence of bad governance), are you inclined to bet that there will be some sort of renewal, or do you think that things will continue to get worse? In other words, are you a momentum trader, or are you a reversion to the mean trader when it comes to cities?Edward Glaeser 0:06:54I can tell you different answers for different outcomes. For housing prices, I can tell you exactly what we know statistically about this, which is at higher frequencies, let's say one year, housing prices show wickedly large levels of momentum. For five years or more, they show very significant levels of mean reversion. It's a short-term cycle in housing prices followed by decline. Population just shows enormous persistence on the downside. So what happens is you typically will have an economic shock. Detroit used to be the most productive place on the planet in 1950, but a bunch of shocks occurred in transportation technology which made it no longer such a great place to make cars for the world. It takes a century for the city to respond in terms of its population because the housing is sticky. The housing remains there. So between the 50s and 60s, the population declines a little bit, and prices drop. They drop sufficiently far that you're not going to build a lot of new housing, but people are going to still stay in the houses. They're not going to become vacant. So, the people are still there because the houses are still there. During the 60s to 70s, the population drops a little bit further and prices kind of stay constant, but still it's not enough to build new housing. So the declines are incredibly persistent, and growth is less so. So on the boom side, you have a boom over a 10-year period that's likely to mean revert and it's not nearly as persistent because it doesn't have this sticky housing element to it. In terms of GDP per capita, it's much more of a random walk there in terms of the straight income stuff. It's the population that's really persistent, which is, in fact, the reality of a persistent economy.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:44Interesting. Why don't Americans move as much as they used to a century ago? So you have a paper from 2018 titled Jobs in the Heartland, where you talk about how there's increasing divergence between the unemployment rates between different parts of America. Why don't Americans just move to places where there are better economic circumstances? Edward Glaeser 0:09:04I want to highlight one point here, which is that you said “unemployment rate”, and I want to replace that with non-employment rate. That's partially what we're seeing now. It looks like America's labor force couldn't be better in terms of the low levels of unemployment, but what's happened over the last 50 years is there has been a very large rise in the share of prime-age men who are not in the labor force. So they've stopped looking for work, and those guys are miserable. It's not that those guys are somehow rather productive and happy,–– this is a very bad outcome for prime-age men. I'm separating men from women, not to say that the female labor markets aren't just as important, just as fascinating, just as critical. But labor force participation means something different for many women than it does for men. There are many women who are not in the labor force who are doing things that are enormously productive socially, like caring for their children and caring for their families.I wish it were symmetric across the genders. It just isn't true. I mean, there just are very few men not in the labor force who are doing anything much other than watching television. It's just a very different thing. So yes, there are big differences in the non-employment rate. There are some parts of America where, for much of the past decade, one in four prime-age men have been jobless. It's an enormous gap. The question is, why don't they get out?I think the answer is really twofold: one of which is the nature of how housing markets have frozen up. Historically, the differences in housing costs in the US weren't that huge across places. Most parts of America had some kind of affordable housing, and it was relatively easy to put up. At the dawn of the 20th century, these were kit helms sold by Sears and Roebuck that sprung up by the thousand. You bought the kit from Sears and Roebuck, and you just built it yourself. After World War II, it was mass-produced homes in places like Levittown.For most of the last 50 years, in places like coastal California or the East Coast, building has just become far more difficult. With the decline of mass-produced housing, it's become far more expensive, and it becomes harder and harder for relatively low-income people to find opportunities in places that have high levels of income, and high levels of opportunity. That's partially why there's not just a general decline in mobility, there's a decline in directed mobility for the poor. Historically, poor people moved from poor areas to rich areas. That's pretty much stopped. In part, that's because rich areas just have very, very expensive housing. The other thing is the rising importance of the informal safety net.So if you think about most particularly prime-aged men, they're not receiving significant handouts from the government except if they're on disability. But they will typically have some form of income, some form of housing that's being provided for them by someone other than themselves. A third of them are living in their parent's homes. That informal safety net is usually very place dependent. Let's say you're living in Eastern Kentucky; it's not like your parents were going to buy you a condo in San Francisco. You can still have your own bedroom, but you can't go anywhere else and still get that level of support. And so that's, I think, another reason why we're increasingly stuck in place.The third you mentioned, is that a third of the non-employed population of young men or is that a third of all young men? Non-employed is a third of non-employed prime aged men. So that's 25 to 54. There are a lot of 45 year olds who are living on their parents' couches or in their old bedroom. It's a fairly remarkable thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:49Now, we'll get to housing in just a second, but first, I want to ask you: If the fertility trends in East Asia and many other places continue, what will the impact on cities be if the average age gets much older and the possible eventuality of depopulation?Edward Glaeser 0:12:53That's a really interesting question.The basic age fact on cities is that within the bracket of the sort of high-income or middle-income, for prime-aged parents, cities tend to be relatively bad for them. Once you're in the sort of high end of the upper middle class, the distrust of our public school systems, merited or not, means that that group tends to leave. You have plenty of parents with kids who are lower income, and then you have groups who are part of a demographic barbell that like cities. So this is partially about people who don't feel like they need the extra space and partially because if they're young, they're looking to find prospective mates of various forms.Cities are good for that. Urban proximity works well in the dating market. And they've got time on their hands to enjoy the tremendous amenities and consumption advantages that cities have. For older people, it's less about finding a mate typically, but the urban consumption amenity still has value. The ability to go to museums, the ability to go to concerts, and those sorts of activities continue to draw people in.Going forward, I would have continued to expect the barbell dimension to persist until we actually get around to solving our urban schools and declining population levels. If anything, I would have thought that COVID skews you a bit younger because older people are more anxious and remember that cities can also bring pandemics. They remember that it can be a nice thing to have a suburban home if you have to shelter in place. So that might lead some people who would have otherwise relocated to a dense urban core to move out, to stay out.Urban EducationDwarkesh Patel 0:14:44You just mentioned urban schools, and I'm curious because you've written about how urban schools are one of the reasons people who have children might not want to stay in cities. I'm curious why it's the case that American cities have some of the best colleges in the world, but for some reason, their K-to-12 is significantly worse, or it can be worse than the K-to-12 in other parts of the country. Why is it that the colleges are much better in cities, but K to 12 is worse? Edward Glaeser 0:15:19So it's interesting. It's not as if, I don't think there's ever been an Englishman who felt like they had to leave London to get better schools for the kids, or a Frenchman who thought they needed to leave Paris. It's not like there's something that's intrinsic to cities, but I've always thought it's a reflection of the fact that instead of allowing all of the competition and entrepreneurship that thrives in cities and that makes cities great, in the case of K to 12 public education, that's vanished.And your example of colleges is exactly right. I'm in this industry; I'm a participant in this industry and let me tell you, this industry is pretty competitive. Whether or not we're competing for the best students, at our level we go through an annual exercise of trying to make sure we get Ph.D. students to come to our program instead of our competitors, whether it's by hiring faculty members or attracting undergraduates, we occupy a highly competitive industry where we are constantly aware of what we need to do to make ourselves better. It doesn't mean that we're great along every dimension, but at least we're trying. K through 12 education has a local monopoly.So it's like you take the great urban food, leisure and hospitality, and food industries, and instead of having in New York City by a hyper-competitive world where you constantly have entry, you say, “You know what? We're going to have one publicly managed canteen and it's going to provide all the food in New York City and we're not going to allow any competitors or the competitors are going to have to pay a totally different thing.” That canteen is probably going to serve pretty crappy food. That's in some sense what happens when you have a large-scale public monopoly that replaces private competition.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:50But isn't that also true of rural schools? Why are urban schools often worse? Edward Glaeser 0:17:46There's much more competition in suburban schools. So in terms of the suburban schools, typically there are lots of suburbs, and people are competing amongst them. The other thing that's actually important is (I don't want to over exaggerate this, but I think it is something that we need to think a little bit about) the role of public sector unions and particularly teachers unions in these cases. In the case of a suburban school district, the teachers union is no more empowered on the management side than they would be in the private sector.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:30So in a normal private sector, you've got a large company, you've got a union, and they're arguing with each other. It's a level playing field. It's all kind of reasonable. I'm not saying management has done awful things, and that unions have done foolish things. I'm not saying that either are perfect, but it's kind of well-matched. It's matched that way in the suburbs as well. You've got highly empowered parents who are highly focused on their kids and they're not dominated.It's not like the teachers union dominates elections in Westchester County. Whereas if you go into a big city school district, you have two things going on. One of which is the teachers tend to be highly involved politically and quite capable of influencing management essentially, because they are an electoral force to be reckoned with, not just by the direct votes, but also with their campaign spending. On top of this, you're talking about a larger group of disparate parents, many of whom have lots of challenges to face and it becomes much harder for them to organize effectively on the other side. So for those reasons, big urban schools can do great things and many individual teachers can be fantastic, but it's an ongoing challenge. Georgism, Robert Moses, & Too Much Democracy?Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:35What is your opinion on Georgism? Do cities need a land value tax? Would it be better if all the other taxes are replaced by one?Edward Glaeser 0:18:41Okay. So Henry George, I don't know any economist who doesn't think that a land value tax is an attractive idea. The basic idea is we're going to tax land rather than taxing real estate values. And you would probably implement this in practice by evaluating the real estate and then subtracting the cost of construction, (at least for anything that was built up, meaning you'd form some value of the structures and you just subtract it).The attractive thing from most of our perspectives is it doesn't create the same disincentive to build that a real estate tax does. Real estate tax says, “Oh, you know what? I might want to keep this thing as a parking lot for a couple of years so I don't have to pay taxes on it.”If it were a land value tax, you're going to pay the same tax, whether or not it's a parking lot or whether or not you're going to put a high rise on it, so you might as well put the high rise on it and we could use the space. So I think by and large, that's a perfectly sensible idea. I'd like to see more places using land value taxes or using land value taxes in exchange for property taxes.Where George got it wrong is the idea that a land value tax is going to solve all the problems of society or all the problems of cities. That is ludicrously not true.One could make an argument that in those places that just have a property tax, you could replace it with a land value tax with little loss, but at the national level, it's not a particularly progressive tax in lots of ways. It would be hard to figure out how to fund all the things you want to fund, especially since there are lots of things that we do that are not very land intensive. I think George was imagining a world in which pretty much all value-creating enterprises had a lot of land engaged. So it's a good idea, yes. A panacea, no. Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:20No, that's a good point. I mean, Google's offices in San Francisco are probably generating more value than you would surmise just from the quantity of land they have there. Do American cities need more great builders like Robert Moses?Edward Glaeser 0:20:36Robert Caro's The Power Broker is one of the great biographies of the past 100 years, unquestionably. The only biography that I think is clearly better is Robert Caro's biography of Lyndon Baines Johnson, right? I mean, it's Caro is truly amazing. That being said, I would not exactly call it a fair and balanced view of Robert. I mean, it is true that Robert Moses was high handed, and it is true that there are things that he did that were terrible, that you never want to do again. But on the other hand, the man got stuff built. I mean, I think of myself as a child growing up in New York City, and whether or not it was the public pool that I swam in or the parks that I played in, or the roads that I traveled on, they were all delivered by Robert Moses. There's got to be a middle ground, which is, no, we're not going to run roughshod over the neighborhood as Robert Moses did, but we're still going to build stuff. We're still going to deliver new infrastructure and we're not going to do it for 10 times more than every other country in the world does it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:37We're actually going to have sensible procurement policies that bring in things at a reasonable cost, and I think we need to balance a little bit back towards Robert Moses in order to have slightly more empowered builders who actually are able to deliver American cities the infrastructure they need at an affordable cost. Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:57Do we have too much democracy at the local level? You wrote a paper in 2017 titled The Political Economy of Transportation Investments and one of the points you make there is that the local costs are much more salient to people for new construction than the public benefits, and the benefits to newcomers would be. Does that mean we have too much federalism? Should we just have far less power at the city level and not universally? There are lots of good things that local control does.Edward Glaeser 0:22:25I do think we have too much local ability to say no to new housing projects. So that's a particular case that I'm focused on. I think it's exactly right that the near neighbors to a project internalize all of the extra noise and perhaps extra traffic that they're going to have due to this project. They probably overestimate it because they are engaging in a bit of status quo bias and they think the present is great and can't imagine any change.By contrast, none of the people who would benefit from the new project are able to vote. All of the families that would love to move into this neighborhood are being zoned out by the insiders who get a say. I think the goal is to make sure that we have more ability to speak for outsiders. Cities at their best, are places where outsiders can find opportunities. That's part of what's so great about them. It's a tragic thing that we make that so hard. Now I'm not sure exactly that I'm claiming that I want less democracy, but I do want more limitations on how much regulations localities can do. So I think there are certain limitations on local power that I think are fine.I would prefer to call this not a limitation on local democracy, but an increase in the protection of individual rights or the individual rights of landowners to do what they want with their land. Which in effect, is a limit on democracy. But the Bill of Rights is a limit on democracy! The Bill of Rights says that they don't care if 51% of your voters want to take away your right to free assembly. They're not allowed to do that. So in some sense, what I'm just arguing for is more property owners' rights so that they can actually allow more housing in their building.In terms of transportation projects, it's a little bit dicier because here the builder is the government itself. I think the question is you want everyone to have a voice. You don't want every neighborhood to have a veto over every potential housing project or potential transportation project. So you need something that is done more at the state level with representation from the locality, but without the localities getting the ultimate sayDwarkesh Patel 0:24:33I wonder if that paper implies that I should be shorting highly educated areas, at least in terms of real estate. One of the things you mentioned in the paper was that highly educated areas that had much higher opposition were able to foment much more opposition. Edward Glaeser 0:24:49Okay. So here's the real estate strategy, which I have heard that actually there are buyers who do this. You take an area that has historically been very pro-housing. So it's got lots of housing, and it's affordable right now because supply is good. But lots of educated people have moved in. Which means that going forward, they're going to build much less, which means that going forward, they're likely to become much more expensive. So you should, in fact, buy options on that stuff rather than shorting it. You should short if you have a security that is related to the population level in that community. You should short that because the population growth is going to go down, but the prices are likely to go up. Opioids, Automation, & UBIDwarkesh Patel 0:25:29So you wrote a paper last year on the opioid epidemic. One of the points that you made there was that the opioid epidemic could be explained just by the demand side stuff about social isolation and joblessness. I wonder how this analysis makes you think about mass-scale automation in the future. What impact do you think that would have? Assume it's paired with universal basic income or something like that. Do you think it would cause a tremendous increase in opioid abuse?Edward Glaeser 0:26:03I would have phrased it slightly differently–– which is as opposed to the work of two amazing economists, Anne Case and Angus Deaton, who really emphasized the role of deaths of despair; we are much more focused on the supply side. WIth the demand side, meaning just the way that we handled the distribution of large-scale pain relieving medicines, we tell a story where every 30 to 50 years, someone comes up with the same sort of idea, which is we know that human beings love opioids in different forms. We also know they're highly addicted and lead to a terrible cycle. So all of a sudden comes along this innovator says, you know what? I've got a new opioid and it's safe. You don't have to worry about getting addicted to this one. It's magical.It won't work. 100 years ago, that thing was called heroin. 200 years ago, that thing was called morphine. 300 years ago, that thing was called Meldonium. We have these new drugs which have come in, and they've never been safe. But in our case, it was OxyContin and the magic of the time relief was supposed to make it safe, and it wasn't safe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30There's a lot of great work that just shows that the patterns of opioid use was related to the places that just had a lot of pain 30 years ago. Those places came with a lot of tendency to prescribe various things for pain. So when opioids came in, when OxyContin came in, those were the places that got addicted most. Now it's also true that there are links between these economic issues. There are links with joblessness, and I basically do believe that things that create joblessness are pretty terrible and are actually much worse than income inequality. I push back against the universal basic income advocates who I think are basically engaging in a materialist fallacy of thinking that a human being's life is shaped by their take home pay or their unearned pay. I think for most people, a job is much more than that. A job is a sense of purpose. A job is a sense of social connection. When you look at human misery and opioid use, you look at the difference between high-income earners, mid-income earners. There are differences, but they're small. You then look at the difference between low-income earners and the jobless, then unhappiness spikes enormously, misery spikes enormously, family breakups spike enormously. So things like universal basic income, which the negative income tax experimented on in the 1970s, are the closest thing we have for its large-scale experiments in this area, which had very large effects on joblessness by just giving people money. They feel quite dangerous to me because they feel like they're going to play into rising joblessness in America, which feels like a path for its misery. I want to just quickly deviate and some of the UBI advocates have brought together UBI in the US and UBI in the developing world. So UBI in the developing world, basically means that you give poor farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa fairly modest amounts of money. This is a totally sensible strategy.These people are not about to live life permanently not working. They're darn poor. It's very efficient relative to other ways of giving. I am in no sense pushing back on UBI with modest amounts of money in the poorest parts of the world. By all means, it's been deemed to be effective. It's just a very different thing if you're saying I'm going to give $100 to a poor Congolese farmer, or I'm going to give $10,000 to a long-term jobless person in Eastern Kentucky. You're not buying a PS5 for $100 in Congo.Remote Work, Taxation, & MetaverseDwarkesh Patel 0:29:57I want to ask you about remote work. You write in The Survival of the City, that improvements in information technology can lead to more demand for face-to-face contact because FaceTime complements time spent communicating electronically. I'm curious, what distinguishes situations where FaceTime substitutes for in-person contact from situations where it complements FaceTime complements virtual contact?Edward Glaeser 0:30:25So there's not a universal rule on this. I wrote a paper based on this in the 1990s about face-to-face contact complements or substitutes for electronic contacts. It was really based on a lot of anxiety in the 1970s that the information technology of their day, the fax machine, the personal computer was going to make face-to-face contact in the cities that enable that contact obsolete. That discussion has reappeared amazingly in the past two and a half years because of Zoom, and all of those questions still resonate. I think in the short run, typically these things are substitutes.Typically you don't necessarily need to meet some person who's your long-term contact. You can actually just telephone them, or you can connect with them electronically. In the long run, they seem to be much more likely to be complements, in part because these technologies change our world. The story that I tell over the last 40 years is that, yes, there were some face-to-face contacts that were made unnecessary because of electronic interactions. But it's not just that cities did well over the past 40 years–– business travel went through the roof over the past 40 years. You'd think that that would have been made unnecessary by all these electronic interactions, but I think what just happened was that these new technologies and globalization created a more interconnected world, a world in which knowledge was more important, and we become smart by interacting with people face-to-face. This world became more knowledge and information intensive and more complicated, and as things get more complicated, it's easier for ideas to get lost in translation. So we have these wonderful cues for communicating comprehension or confusion that are lost when we're not in the same room with one another. So I think over the longer time, they tend to complements, and over the shorter term, they tend to be substitutes.One of the things I think was helpful in my earlier work on this was looking at the history of information technology innovations. I think probably the first one is the book. It's hard to imagine an innovation that did more to flatten distance. Now you can read stuff that people are saying hundreds of miles away. Yet there's not a shred of evidence that the book led to less urbanization in Europe or to less connection. It helped create a totally different world in which people were passionate about ideas and wanted to talk to each other. They wanted to talk to each other about their books.Flash forward 350 years when we have the telephone. Telephones started being used more in cities, and they were used mostly by people who were going to meet face-to-face. There's no evidence that this has created a decline in the demand for face-to-face contact or a decline in the demand for cities. So I think if we look at Zoom, which unquestionably has allowed a certain amount of long-distance contact, that's very, very useful. In the short run, it certainly poses a threat to urban office markets. My guess is in the long run; it's probably going to be likely to be neutral at worst for face-to-face contact in the cities that enable that contact. Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:37I think that my podcast has been a great example for me about this. I mean, right now we're talking virtually. So maybe, in a way it's substituted, and perhaps I would have interviewed in person without the podcast. However, in another way, I've also met so many people that I've interviewed on the podcast or who have just connected with me because of the podcast in person. The amount of in-person interactions I've had because of a virtual podcast is a great anecdote to what you're talking about, so that makes total sense.Edward Glaeser 0:34:05Absolutely.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:06Why do even the best software engineers in India or in Europe make so much less when they're working remotely from those locations than remote engineers working in America make? I mean, why don't employers just pay them more until the price discrepancy goes away?Edward Glaeser 0:34:23That's interesting. I don't fully know the answer to that question. I would suspect some of it just has to do with the nature of supply and demand. There are some things that are just very hard to be done remotely. Either because you have very precise informational needs that you have that are easier to communicate to people who are nearby or the person who's nearby has evolved in ways in terms of their mind that they actually know exactly what you want and they have exactly the product that you need. So even though the remote call center worker and the local one may be totally equivalent on raw programming talent, you may still end up in equilibrium and be willing to pay a lot more to the local one just because, right?So there's a slightly differentiated skill the local one has, and look, there's just a lot of competition for the remote ones, so the price is going to be pretty low. There's not that much supply of the one guy who's down the hall and knows exactly what you're looking for. So that guy gets much higher wages, just because he can offer you something that no one else can exactly reproduce.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:27Let me clarify my question. Even remote engineers in America will make more than remote engineers in Europe or in India. If somebody is working remotely but he just happens to live in the US, is that just because they can communicate in English in the same way? Edward Glaeser 0:35:54I would take the same stance. I would say that they're likely to have just skills that are somewhat idiosyncratic and are valued in the US context.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:56Are you optimistic about the ability of the metaverse and VR to be able to better puncture whatever makes in-person contact so valuable?Edward Glaeser 0:36:19No, I do not think the metaverse is going to change very much. I do think that there will be a lot of hours spent on various forms of gaming over the next 20 years, but I don't think it ultimately poses much of a threat to real-world interactions. In some sense, we saw this with the teenage world over the last three years. We saw a lot of America spend an awful lot of time, 15, 16-year-olds, 17-year-olds, gaming and connecting entirely virtually during the whole time of the pandemic lockdowns.Every single person that I've seen in that cohort, when you allowed them to interact with real members of their group live, leaped at the opportunity. They leaped at the opportunity of meeting and actually hanging out with real people until three o'clock in the morning and arguing over whatever it is–– whether or not it's football or Kant. I think particularly for the young, living life live just beats the alternative.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:05That sounds like a very Harvard scenario, having to argue over football or Kant, those two topics. [laughs] Are you predicting lower taxes over the coming decades in places like California and New York, specifically because of how remote work sets a sort of maximum bar of how much you can tax highly productive people before they will just leave? Edward Glaeser 0:37:29This is a great question. It's a central issue of our day. Here's how I think about it. In part, it's why I wrote my recent book, Survival of the City. It's because I was worried about this. Two things happened simultaneously. One, as you correctly say, Zoom has made it easier to connect anywhere. I don't think that Zoom is going to cause our tech startup currently in Silicon Valley to say, oh, you know what? We're just going to go home to our Orange County suburban homes and never meet live again. I think that's a low-probability event.But what seems to be a perfectly high probability event is saying, “Oh, we can Zoom with our VCs, we can Zoom with our lawyers. Why don't we just relocate to Austin, Texas, not pay taxes, or relocate to Boulder, Colorado, so we can have beautiful scenery, or relocate to Honolulu so we can surf?” That seems like we've made the ability for smart people to relocate much easier, even if they're going to keep on seeing each other in the office three or four days a week. That collides with this very fervent desire to deal with festering social inequities at the local level. Be this limited upward mobility for poorer people, be this high housing costs, be this the rise of mass incarceration and police brutality towards particularly minority groups. There's this progressive urge which runs up against the fact that the rich guys can run away.If your model, which says, “Oh, the local governments are going to realize the rich guys can run away, so they will seamlessly lower tax rates in order to make sure that they attract those people,” that's running up against the fact that there's a whole lot of energy on the progressive side, which says, “No! Massachusetts just passed a millionaire's tax. For the first time ever, we have the possibility to have a progressive tax, which feels extraordinarily dangerous given this time period.”I think we may need to see a bunch of errors in this area before we start getting things right. We went through a lot of pain in the 1970s as cities first tried to deal with their progressive goals and rich people and companies ran away, and it wasn't until the 1980s that people started realizing this was the path to local bankruptcy and that we had real city limits on what the locality could do.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:44You cited research on the survival of the city, which said that firms like Microsoft were much less willing to hire new people once they went online because of the pandemic. What do you make of the theory that this is similar to when industrialization first hit and we hadn't figured out exactly how to make the most use of it to be most productive, but over the long run, somebody will do to remote work what Henry Ford did to the factory floor and in fact, just make it much more effective and efficient than in-person contact just because we'll have better ways of interacting with people through remote work, since we'll have better systems?Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:17It's entirely possible. I never like betting against the ingenuity of humanity. On the other hand, you need a lot of technology to override 5 million years of evolution. We have evolved to be an in-person species, not just because we're productive and learn a lot face-to-face, but also because we just like it. A world of hyper-efficient remote work where you basically are puttering around your apartment doing things very quickly and getting things done, doesn't sound particularly joyful to me.Workplaces are not just places of productivity; they're also places of pleasure, particularly at the high end. Remember in 2019 and earlier, Google, and Yahoo, the companies that should have had the biggest capacity to do remote stuff, weren't sending their workers home; they were building these paradises for high-skilled workers, stuffed with foosball tables and free snacks and whatever else they had in these giant campuses in the Google lex. So they were certainly betting on the power of face-to-face and creativity rather than on the ability of remote work to make everything work. I think the most reasonable view, let's say that of Nick Bloom of Stanford, is that for those types of workers, 20% of your week being hybrid, maybe 40%, seems quite possible.That seems like a thing, particularly for workers who have families who really value that degree of flexibility. But fully remote, I guess that's a pretty niche thing. There's some jobs like call center workers where you could imagine it being the norm, but in part, that's just because it's just hard to learn the same amount remotely that you do face-to-face. This came out both in the earlier Bloom study on remote call center workers in China and on more recent work by Natalia Emmanuel and Emma Harrington. Both studies found the same thing, which is in these call centers, are plenty productive when they're remote, but the probability of being promoted drops by 50%.The entrepreneur may make it very efficient to do things in the short run remotely, but they're going to turn off this tendency that we have to be able to learn things from people around us, which is just much harder to duplicate remotely.Past & Future of Silicon ValleyDwarkesh Patel 0:42:29Now, I'm curious why Silicon Valley became the hub of technology. You wrote a paper in 2018 about where pioneer and non-pioneer firms locate. So, I was hoping you had insight on this. Does it stand for it? Is it where Fairchild Semiconductor is located? What is the explanation?Edward Glaeser 0:42:48So, we take it as being earlier. It is Stanford. I traced through this, I think in Triumph. Yeah, it was a company called Federal Telegraph Company that was founded by a guy called Cyril Frank Elwell, who was a radio pioneer, and he was tapped by his teacher to head this radio company. The story was, as I remember it, there'd been this local genius in San Francisco who had attracted all these investors and was going to do this wireless telegraphy company. Then he died in a freak carriage accident.These investors wanted to find someone else, and they went to Stanford's nearby factory and asked, who should we hire? It was this guy Elwell who founded Federal Telegraph. Federal Telegraph then licensed, I think Danish technology which was originally the Poulsen Telegraph Company. They then hired some fairly bright people like Lee DeForest and they did incredibly well in World War I off of federal Navy contracts, off of Navy contracts. They then did things like providing jobs for people like the young Fred Terman, whose father was a Stanford scientist. Now, Fred Terman then plays an outsized role in this story because he goes to MIT, studies engineering there, and then comes back to become Dean of Stanford's engineering program.He really played an outsized role in setting up the Stanford Industrial Park which attracting Fairchild Semiconductor. Then there's this sort of random thing about how the Fairchild Semiconductor attracts these people and then repels them because you have this brilliant guy Shockley, right? He's both brilliant and sort of personally abhorrent and manages to attract brilliant people and then repel all of them. So they all end up dispersing themselves into different companies, and they create this incredibly creative ecosystem that is the heart of Silicon Valley.In its day, it had this combination of really smart people and really entrepreneurial ethos, which just made it very, very healthy. I think the thing that many of us worry about is that Silicon Valley more recently, feels much more like it's a one-industry town, which is dangerous. It feels more like it's a bunch of industrial behemoths rather than a bunch of smart and scrappy startups. That's a recipe that feels much more like Detroit in the 1950s than it does like Silicon Valley in the 1960s.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:52Speaking of startups, what does your study of cities imply about where tech startups should locate and what kind of organization in person or otherwise they should have? I think there's a lot to like about in person, certainly. Relying too much on remote feels quite dangerous if you're a scrappy startup. But I like a lot the Sunbelt smart cities.I sort of have a two-factor model of economic growth, which is it's about education, and it's about having governments that are pro-business. If you think about sort of the US, there's a lot of heterogeneity in this. If you think about the US versus other countries, it's heterogeneity. So the US has historically been better at being pro-business than, let's say, the Northern European social democracies, but the Northern European social democracies are great on the education front.So places like Sweden and the Netherlands, and Germany are also very successful places because they have enough education to counter the fact that they may not necessarily be as pro-business as the US is. Within the US, you also have this balance, whereas places like Massachusetts, and California are certainly much less pro-business, but they're pretty well-educated. Other parts of the country may be more pro-business, but they're less so. The real secret sauce is finding those places that are both highly educated and pro-business.So those are places like Charlotte and Austin and even Atlanta, places in the Sun Belt that have attracted lots of skilled people. They've done very, very well during COVID. I mean, Austin, by most dimensions, is the superstar of the COVID era in terms of just attracting people. So I think you had to wait for the real estate prices to come down a bit in Austin, but those are the places that I would be looking at. Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:46I don't know if you know, but I live in Austin, actually.Edward Glaeser 0:47:50I did not know that. [laughs]Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54Well, actually, I'm surprised about what you said about education because you write in the paper, “general knowledge measured as average years of schooling is not a strong determinant of the survival of a pioneer firm, but relatedness of knowledge between past and present activities is.” So I'm surprised that you think education is a strong determinant for pioneer firms.Edward Glaeser 0:48:15No, I'm a big human capital determinist. So I tend to believe that individuals, cities, and nations rise and fall based on their skill levels. Certainly, if you look over the last 40 or 50 years, skills are very predictive of which cities (particularly colder cities) manage to do well versus poorly. If you ask yourself why Detroit and Seattle look different, more than 50% of Seattle's adults have college degrees, and maybe 14, 15% of Detroit's adults do.That's just a huge, huge gap. Certainly, when we think about your punitive startup, you're going to be looking for talent, right? You're going to be looking to hire talent, and having lots of educated people around you is going to be helpful for that.Housing ReformDwarkesh Patel 0:48:56Let's talk about housing. Houston has basically very little to no zoning. Why is it not more of interesting today? Nobody goes to Houston for tourism.Edward Glaeser 0:49:07I have. [laughs] I have, in fact, gone to Houston for tourism. Although part of it, I admit, was to look at the housing and to go to the woodlands and look at that. Interesting has a lot to do with age in this country. So the more that a city has… Boston is good for tourism just because it's been around for a long time, and it hasn't changed all that much. So it has this sort of historical thing. Houston's a new place, not just in the sense that the chronological age is lower but also in the sense that it's just grown so much, and it's dominated by new stuff, right?That new stuff tends to be more homogenous. It tends to have less history on it. I think those are things that make new cities typically less interesting than older cities. As witnessed by the fact that Rome, Jerusalem, London, are great tourist capitals of the world because they've just accreted all this interesting stuff over the millennium. So I think that's part of it. I'm not sure that if we look at more highly zoned new cities, we're so confident that they're all that more interesting.I don't want to be particularly disparaging any one city. So I'm not going to choose that, but there's actually a bunch that's pretty interesting in Houston, and I'm not sure that I would say that it's any less interesting than any comparably aged city in the country.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:35Yeah. I'm visiting Houston later this month. I asked my friend there, should I stay here longer? I mean, is there anything interesting to do here? And then he responds, “Well, it's the fourth biggest city in the country, so no.”Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:47Many people, including many economists, have said that we should drastically increase US population through immigration to a figure like 1 billion. Do you think that our cities could accommodate that? We have the infrastructure, and I mean, let's say we reformed housing over a decade or so. Could we accommodate such a large influx of people? Edward Glaeser 0:51:24A billion people in a decade? I love the vision. Basically, in my heart, I'm an open borders person, right? I mean, it's a moral thing. I don't really like the idea that I get to enjoy the privileges of being an American and think that I'm going to deny that opportunity to anyone else. So I love this vision. A billion people over 10 years is an unimaginably large amount of people over a relatively short period of time. I'd love to give it a shot. I mean, it's certainly not as if there's any long-term reason why you couldn't do it.I mean, goodness knows we've got more than enough space in this country. It would be exciting to do that. But it would require a lot of reform in the housing space and require a fair amount of reform in the infrastructure space as well to be able to do this at some kind of large scale affordability.Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:05What does the evidence show about public libraries? Do they matter?Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:09My friend Eric Kleinberg has written a great book about… I think it's called Palaces for the People about all the different functions that libraries have played. I've never seen anything statistically or systematically about this, but you're not going to get a scholar to speak against books. It's not a possible thing.Europe's Stagnation, Mumbai's Safety, & Climate Change Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:32Why do European cities seem so much more similar to what they look like decades or even centuries ago than American cities, even American cities that are old, obviously not as old as European cities, but they seem to change much more over time. Edward Glaeser 0:52:46Lower population growth, much tougher zoning, much tougher historic preservation. All three of these things are going on. So it's very difficult to build in European cities. There's a lot of attention to caring about history. It's often part of the nationalist narrative. You often have huge amounts of national dollars going to preserve local stuff and relatively lower levels of population growth.An extreme example of this is Warsaw, where central Warsaw is completely destroyed during World War II, and they built it up to look exactly like it looked before the bombing. So this is a national choice, which is unlikely that we would necessarily make here in the US. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:27Yeah. I was in Mumbai earlier this year, and I visited Dharavi, which is the biggest slum in Asia. And it's a pretty safe place for a slum. Why are slums in different countries? Why do they often have different levels of how safe they are? What is the reason?Edward Glaeser 0:53:45I, too, have been in Dharavi and felt perfectly safe. It's like walking around Belgravia and London in terms of it. I think my model of Dharavi is the same model as Jane Jacobs's model of Greenwich Village in 1960, which is this is just a well-functioning community.People have eyes on the street. If you're a stranger in these areas, they're going to be looking at you, and it's a community that just functions. There are lots of low-income communities throughout the world that have this. It requires a certain amount of permanence. So if the community is too much in flux, it becomes hard to enforce these norms and hard to enforce these sort of community rules. It's really helpful if there aren't either a massive number of guns floating around or an unbelievably lucrative narcotics trade, which is in the area. Those are both things that make things incredibly hard. Furthermore, US drug policy has partially been responsible for creating violence in some of the poor parts of Latin American cities.Dwarkesh Patel 0:54:43Maybe you don't play video games enough to know the answer to this question. But I'm curious, is there any video game, any strategic video game like Civilization or Europa that you feel does a good job representing the economics of cities? Edward Glaeser 0:55:07No, I will say that when I was in graduate school, I spent a few hours playing something called Sim City. I did think that was very fun. But I'm not going to claim that I think that it got it right. That was probably my largest engagement with city-building video games.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:12What would you say we understand least about how cities work? Edward Glaeser 0:55:18I'm going to say the largest unsolved problem in cities is what the heck we're going to do about climate change and the cities of the developing world. This is the thing I do not feel like I have any answer for in terms of how it is that we're going to stop Manila or Mumbai from being leveled by some water-related climate event that we haven't yet foreseen.We think that we're going to spend tens of billions of dollars to protect New York and Miami, and that's going to happen; but the thing I don't understand and something we really need to need to invest in terms of knowledge creation is what are we going to do with the low-lying cities of the developing world to make them safe. Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:54Okay. Your most recent book is Survival of the City. And before that Triumph of the City, both of which I highly recommend to readers. Professor Glaeser, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was very interesting.Edward Glaeser 0:56:05I enjoyed this a lot. Thank you so much for having me on. I had a great deal of fun. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkeshpatel.com

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The Cause & Cure of Anxiousness – Ruben Cabrera

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 14, 2022 29:41

Matthew 6:25I. THE CAUSE OF OUR ANXIETY: The cause of our anxiety is treasuring that which we cannot retain.Three Diagnostic Tests:1. Examine what you love Matthew 6:19-212. Examine what you desire Matthew 6:22-233. Examine what you worship Matthew 6:24 II. THE CURE FOR OUR ANXIETY: The cure for our anxiety is valuing that which we cannot lose.Three-Pronged Cure:1. Observe His providence (in creation) Matthew 6:26a, Matthew 6:28b-292. Consider your position- Matthew 6:26b. Matthew 6:30, Matthew 6:323. Reorient your devotion- Matthew 6:33-34, Matthew 6:20, Colossians 3:1-4-----Closing Passage1 Peter 5:6-9, Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, 7casting all your anxieties on him because he cares for you.

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Parabolic Booby Trap - 10.23.22 The Rev. Vincent Pizzuto, Ph.D.

St. Columba's Episcopal Church Sermons

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 30, 2022 9:09

Twentieth Sunday after Pentecost The Collect: Almighty and everlasting God, increase in us the gifts of faith, hope, and charity; and, that we may obtain what you promise, make us love what you command; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Old Testament: Joel 2:23-32 23O children of Zion, be glad and rejoice in the Lord your God; for he has given the early rain for your vindication, he has poured down for you abundant rain, the early and the later rain, as before. 24The threshing floors shall be full of grain, the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25I will repay you for the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent against you. 26You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, who has dealt wondrously with you. And my people shall never again be put to shame. 27You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I, the Lord, am your God and there is no other. And my people shall never again be put to shame. 28Then afterward I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29Even on the male and female slaves, in those days, I will pour out my spirit. 30I will show portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes. 32Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls. Psalm: Psalm 65 1 You are to be praised, O God, in Zion; * to you shall vows be performed in Jerusalem. 2 To you that hear prayer shall all flesh come, * because of their transgressions. 3 Our sins are stronger than we are, * but you will blot them out. 4 Happy are they whom you choose and draw to your courts to dwell there! * they will be satisfied by the beauty of your house, by the holiness of your temple. 5 Awesome things will you show us in your righteousness, O God of our salvation, * O Hope of all the ends of the earth and of the seas that are far away. 6 You make fast the mountains by your power; * they are girded about with might. 7 You still the roaring of the seas, * the roaring of their waves, and the clamor of the peoples. 8 Those who dwell at the ends of the earth will tremble at your marvelous signs; * you make the dawn and the dusk to sing for joy. 9 You visit the earth and water it abundantly; you make it very plenteous; * the river of God is full of water. 10 You prepare the grain, * for so you provide for the earth. 11 I You drench the furrows and smooth out the ridges; * with heavy rain you soften the ground and bless its increase. 12 You crown the year with your goodness, * and your paths overflow with plenty. 13 May the fields of the wilderness be rich for grazing, * and the hills be clothed with joy. 14 May the meadows cover themselves with flocks, and the valleys cloak themselves with grain; * let them shout for joy and sing. Epistle: 2 Timothy 4:6-8, 16-18 6As for me, I am already being poured out as a libation, and the time of my departure has come. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8From now on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing. 16At my first defense no one came to my support, but all deserted me. May it not be counted against them! 17But the Lord stood by me and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion's mouth.18The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Gospel: Luke 18:9-14 9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.' 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' 14I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Not Your Birds - 9.11.22 Ann Hall

St. Columba's Episcopal Church Sermons

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 15, 2022 20:24

Creationtide II: The Collect: O God, because without you we are not able to please you mercifully grant that your Holy Spirit may in all things direct and rule our hearts; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen. Old Testament: Jeremiah 4:11-12, 22-28 11At that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem: A hot wind comes from me out of the bare heights in the desert toward my poor people, not to winnow or cleanse— 12a wind too strong for that. Now it is I who speak in judgment against them. 22“For my people are foolish, they do not know me; they are stupid children, they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but do not know how to do good.” 23I looked on the earth, and lo, it was waste and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light. 24I looked on the mountains, and lo, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. 25I looked, and lo, there was no one at all, and all the birds of the air had fled. 26I looked, and lo, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the Lord, before his fierce anger. 27For thus says the Lord: The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end. 28Because of this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above grow black; for I have spoken, I have purposed; I have not relented nor will I turn back. Psalm: Psalm 14 1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” * All are corrupt and commit abominable acts; there is none who does any good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon us all, * to see if there is any who is wise, if there is one who seeks after God. 3 Every one has proved faithless; all alike have turned bad; * there is none who does good; no, not one. 4 Have they no knowledge, all those evildoers * who eat up my people like bread and do not call upon the Lord? 5 See how they tremble with fear, * because God is in the company of the righteous. 6 Their aim is to confound the plans of the afflicted, * but the Lord is their refuge. 7 Oh, that Israel's deliverance would come out of Zion! * when the Lord restores the fortunes of his people, Jacob will rejoice and Israel be glad. Epistle: 1 Timothy 1:12-17 12I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because he judged me faithful and appointed me to his service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a man of violence. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the foremost. 16But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display the utmost patience, making me an example to those who would come to believe in him for eternal life.17To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Gospel: Luke 15:1-10 1Now all the tax collectors and sinners were coming near to listen to him. 2And the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling and saying, “This fellow welcomes sinners and eats with them.” 3So he told them this parable: 4“Which one of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one that is lost until he finds it? 5When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders and rejoices. 6And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.' 7Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. 8“Or what woman having ten silver coins, if she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.' 10Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

The 3 Secrets to Tapping into Your Psychic Abilities with Ann O'Brien

Bitch Slap ...The Accelerated Path to Peace!

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 21, 2022 24:14

Recorded LIVE at the Mind Body Soul Magazine Spring Release Party in Aspen Colorado. Ann O'Brien is AWESOME! She may be one of the smartest most intuitive people I have met. And who doesn't like to talk about Tapping Into Some Psychic Abilities! Here are just some of the gems from our conversation:1. How to find and develop your psychic abilities (the 3 secrets!)2. Differentiate between your masculine and feminine energy to solidify your relationship.3. How to discern your purpose in lifeAnn O'Brien is an intuitive energy healer and coach who has been working with clients since 1999. She is the author of two books, "A Woman's Guide to Conscious Love" and "Everyone Is Psychic". Anne teaches intuitive training programs and offers readings and energy clearing sessions to help people find their power within and live their best lives.Find Ann O'Brien here: https://www.annobrienliving.com/Get “Everyone Is Psychic: How to Awaken Your Intuition to Improve Your Relationships, Enrich Your Life & Read Others” here!Administrative: (See episode transcript below)WATCH this episode here: Table Rush Talk Show.Listen on the go at http://TableRush.net. Over 450 episodes and counting!Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting! These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones. You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS, https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for mobile mic for Android https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media: https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Mischa Zvegintzov 00:04Welcome, everybody to the table rush talk show. I am here with Ann O'Brien, who has two books out. This one just came out everybody's psychic. And at the end of this interview, Anne is going to give you the top three secrets, her top three secrets on tapping into your psychic abilities. So be sure to stay till the end. And then the other book we have is a woman's guide to conscious love. And why we are here is to obviously talk about your book, but we're also at the Mind Body Soul spring release in Aspen, Colorado. And I guess technically we're in West Salt, salt, basalt, Colorado, Aspen is up the road a lead off. And we're at the beautiful capital Creek brewery capital tree brewery, which actually is pretty awesome. And a lot of fun, right? Yeah. And then you have submitted our n has submitted articles to mind body soul in the past, but currently, in this magazine you can find and in the resource section, so if you happen to get your hands on Mind, Body Soul, spring 2022. And you want to find an O'Brien who's written these two amazing books. She's in the resource section. But anyway, oh my gosh, like psychic powers. Everyone is psychic. How fun is that? And I'll ask you, where do you want to start? What do you want to talk about? First? What do you what do you? Well, let me start with this. We're gonna start with a woman's guide to conscious love. And what was the inspiration for this book? Ann O'Brien 01:55Oh, my gosh, life. That's that's been a life's journey. I think you know, in terms of what's going on in the world right now I've been I'm an intuitive I'm an energy healer. I've been working with a lot of clients 1000s of clients since 1999. But as you might imagine, more women than men. Yeah. And the biggest question I've been getting is about relationships. And what I was noticing as a pattern was that women would come to me and they'd want to find a relationship with a man or they'd want to make their relationship better with a man they had. But then they were complaining a lot. And they were doing a lot of things to push it away or sabotage it. And I could see on an energetic level. So yeah, on a level that a therapist might not get to, or you know, another relationship advice book that tells you what to do and what to where doesn't get to, I can get to the psychic levels of what's going on. And then in the world, there's been this movement of like, let's bash the patriarchy and let's make men wrong. Yeah, women's power. Women's power is not helpful if we're just pretending to be men. And I would get all these women coming to me like really struggling, because they couldn't figure out how to find their feminine power and bring out the best in the masculine and so that's why I wrote this book. Mischa Zvegintzov 03:07Oh, by that's amazing. Thank you. Yeah, and so and so. Like, wow, my I'm just like, My mind is blown right now. Honestly, I'm, I'm thinking you're amazing, obviously. So don't worry any dead spots, spots we can edit out. I have a My first question, or my next question is 1990. When did you start in 1999? Yes, you start this coaching, you start coaching women. What's the catalyst? Oh, go ahead. Ann O'Brien 03:48I started doing readings in 99. I actually started my business and Oh, four. But yeah, it's been a long journey. So Mischa Zvegintzov 03:55Oh, so you're doing like, tell me what you're doing? I guess maybe, yes, Ann O'Brien 04:00I do. One on One readings, like so energetic, intuitive, psychic readings, okay, where I close my eyes, and you tell me what's going on in your life and what you're struggling with and what you want to make better or what you want to manifest, okay. And I look at energetic patterns of you know, either what's going on around you and your energy field that's getting in the way or between you and another person or in your job situation. And then I do energy clearing so I'll be like, oh, there's a dead spot here. There's your mom's energy stuck on you off. And while you're really way off in the future, let's get you back here. So you can manifest so I call you back. I clear your energy. And I can only do that if you want you know if you're ready, like yes, I'm not I don't force it. I don't tell people what they should do. I don't I'm not like a peeping Tom looking at stuff. People don't want to show me I think my clients show me what they want to see or what they want me to see and what they want to hear on what they're ready to show. Mischa Zvegintzov 04:56Cool. And so I love that. Thank you for explaining that for sure. And then do you? Are you I have a friend her name's Brahmin Carrie, we call her DK. She does some of that type of energy clearing and such. She's got a, what's the term I'm looking for? It's not like like a mentor, but it's like a guru. Thank you. So do you have a guru? You Ann O'Brien 05:20don't have a guru? Mischa Zvegintzov 05:22Nothing you should. I was just curious. Yeah, cool. Ann O'Brien 05:25I study for 10 years with some really high level psychic teachers. And yeah, I have studied with gurus in the past, I've tried out a lot of different spiritual things. But yeah, kind of found my own at this point. Mischa Zvegintzov 05:36I'd love it. I actually I like the guru of free. Because he strips away a lot of that. I think how you said it earlier just a minute ago was like, I'm not trying to force you in anything you don't want to do or bring you somewhere you don't want to go. But it's more of just holding space and super open way with this little agenda other than helping or dogma as possible. Is that a good way to say that? Ann O'Brien 06:10I sound like a spiritual empowerment coach. Okay, you know, I help people find their power within I believe we are all infinite beings. And we have these bodies. And so my goal is really how do we get all that we are as these infinite spiritual beings into the body and live as that in the 3d world not to separate and go off into lala land? Mischa Zvegintzov 06:32Gosh, so fun. So 1999, you 9899? What year? Ann O'Brien 06:41Was it? Nine, I got my training and started doing reading. Mischa Zvegintzov 06:44Cool. Was that due to, like hitting bottom in your life? Or did you read an article or what was the catalyst for that? Ann O'Brien 06:55Well, I hit ever since I was a teenager, which was prior to that, I was very sensitive. And I couldn't figure out how to manage it. And I didn't realize that all this stuff I was feeling all the time was in mind. Like, I didn't know that that was a psychic ability, or you know, and we all have it, but I had it a lot, you know, and I do not have a mentor. So that's where I went to, you know, Zen teachers, I went to yoga to yoga teachers tried all these different types of meditation. And then around 99, late 90s, I found this psychic development school and at the time, I was living in Boulder, Colorado, and I just went in there, they had this free healing clinic for the public. Yeah. And I would go get free healings. And then I would go get student readings and pay a little money. And they're like, after why they kept seeing me, they're like, take a class. And I'm like, okay, and you know, it really, really spoke to me, of the all the meditations I had done. It really clicked for me. And I really felt like I was getting somewhere. And then I started learning to do readings. And then I realized, gosh, you know, like, the readings are the easy part. Yeah, hearing out what was me and what wasn't me and living my life accordingly. That was a bigger thing. And then doing readings for people and learning how to interpret what I'm seeing and trusting myself. That was a bigger thing. Mischa Zvegintzov 08:08That's interesting. Can you maybe just give me a minute or two on on on? Like, examples of what you are what's not you? Like? I think that's easy to say. But like, can you give me some flavor around that? Or does that make sense? Ann O'Brien 08:25Yeah, yeah. Well, like I remember when I was in college, I would get sad every Sunday. Okay, for no reason. Like, there was nothing that happened consistently every Sunday for me. That shouldn't make me sad, right? Yeah. And then after a while, I had this talk with my mom. And she's like, I just wish you would call me on Sundays. Because that's when my mom always or that's when I would always call my mom. When I went off to college, but you're not calling me. I'm like, Thanks for the memo. Like I had no idea. I was expected to call you at least Sunday. But now I know why. I'm sad every Sunday. Yeah, we clear that up. I wasn't sad on Sundays anymore. Mischa Zvegintzov 09:00Yeah. Interesting. I love that. Thank you for that. Yeah. Cool. So you, you you start doing this, you start playing in this arena, you start you sort of, I don't know, fix yourself is right. Or you, you you sort of get aligned? Yeah, you get aligned. And then I imagined friends associates, whatever, like, Hey, can you do that for me? Or Ann O'Brien 09:27rather, how do you how it started? Yeah, school. You know, I was a psychic student. I was in a year long clairvoyant program. And so my friends are like, Oh my God, you're learning to be a psychic. And so I started giving readings, both in the school setting and for friends and family and then it's just kind of Mischa Zvegintzov 09:43cool five year four or five years, years later, you're like, hey, I can do this as a professional. Ann O'Brien 09:49She just kind of became obvious at the time. You know, like, yeah, do this for your job. You never would have thought that but okay, I surrender and Mischa Zvegintzov 09:58your two votes later a woman's guide to conscious love navigating the play of feminine, feminine and masculine or feminine masculine energy in your relationships. And then we've got everyone is psychic, if people want to find you, where we're find these books are Amazon like, Ann O'Brien 10:24so. Probably the easiest thing to remember is everyone is psychic.com. Mischa Zvegintzov 10:28Oh, cool. Awesome. And then, cool. So you you write this book, you've got 1000s of clients, like what's your, what's your? I have two questions. First off, when when were you like, I'm really helping people. When was that? Was that like an aha moment for you? Or was it a slow build? Or does that question make sense? Yeah, Ann O'Brien 10:52I think there was a one moment I think it was once I started doing readings, it just became clear that it was helpful. Yeah. You know, as people would say, when I was a student, like, Oh, my God, you're right. On your right on I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess I can do this. And I teach now I teach intuitive training programs. I have six month program. So I have students training with me over zoom, and some are in the graduate programs. I've had people studying with me now for over a decade. Oh, wow. And I've watched them from the first, you know, few classes to now where they just like even within the first few months, they'll make a huge leap in their confidence, just because they're practicing. And they're getting the feedback that yes, they're right on. Mischa Zvegintzov 11:33Yeah. Wow. And if someone wants to jump in a class, one of your classes or courses, how do they do that? Ann O'Brien 11:39Again, they can go to everyone@psychics.com. And right now, we don't have any new class starting right away, but they can sign up for my mailing list, and then they'll be in the loop. Mischa Zvegintzov 11:49Cool, fantastic. And anything before we move on to your most recent books, there we go. What would you want anything that I didn't ask you, or you would fell feel remiss that you didn't talk about this book? Before we move on? Ann O'Brien 12:08Well, there's tons in here, but I would just say, as a general theme, I don't know if y'all can see there's a river here. And I use this analogy of the river and the river bank. So when people talk about masculine feminine energies, you know, right now it's new, it's trendy to neutralize it all. Like, oh, yeah, we're all like, whatever. Yeah, we all need to give everybody our pronouns and all that because you anyway. Masculine, masculine and feminine. Right? These are real, these are real energies. So we are hold Yes, we all have masculine and feminine within a polarity is real. And we see it in nature. And when people are confused, because I think one of the things going on in the world right now is people are confused. People are wounded. Like we all had a lot of traumas and problems and challenges in our relationships. So to go to has, how do you figure out where's the feminine power? What's the masculine How are you look to nature, and the river is like that divine feminine is flowing and can be small can be big. She's shaped by the riverbank he's mental hold and contain and help direct the flow. Okay, she also shapes and informs how he should hold that space for her. Yeah, right. Yeah. So if we get confused, just like in that's just one example. But that's a theme that I just wanted to point out on the cover. Mischa Zvegintzov 13:26Yeah. Awesome. Do you inspire people all the time? Do you find Ann O'Brien 13:33I think so when I'm not hiding at home and just like meditating, and we were, you know, yes, I put out a lot of energy in my work. So I do need a lot of quiet time. But yes, I feel like when I go out my intention is to just bring bring my light and to help people find their light and yeah, already and cool. Mischa Zvegintzov 13:51I think before we get to the psychic questions of the psychic, dark are the psychic secrets how to tap into your psychic? Because everyone is psychic. Like for someone like you're clearly tapped in or or, you know, you've got you're doing what your soul wants you to do or I don't know if I'm saying that right. But like, how give people off the top of your head like how can people get that seen? Like confidence and and direction that you so clearly have in a body? Wow, Ann O'Brien 14:29that's a big question. Mischa Zvegintzov 14:30It is. I'm sorry to drop that on. Even I'm talking to you. I'm like, Oh my gosh, you have so much amazing stuff going on. And you're inspiring me. So that's why I'm asking you. Yeah. Ann O'Brien 14:45I would say to people that don't feel like they have a sense of their purpose just to look to what have you always been interested in? And sometimes it's not only what you've loved to do, but it's even what you have your challenges been? Hmm that will point to the thing you're here to master and then share. Move I liked it's a quick answer. But that's a huge questions. Mischa Zvegintzov 15:09It's a huge question. Well, I think that that's a great, maybe you could give us an example of how you've seen somebody lean into that. So it's, it's like, I think if I heard you, what you said was, hey, you can either like, look at what you love and dive further into that. But you can also look into what's maybe cause some rough edges or causing you frustration, and lean into that and learn. And then maybe, hey, now you've got to call him by design. Right? Yeah, that's Ann O'Brien 15:42right. Yeah, we get clarity through contrast. Yeah. So this is a random thing. But sometimes in my workshops, I'll give it an exercise where write down 10 things you hate. Yes. And especially as women, we're not taught that it's okay to hate. Okay, we all have those feelings within us. So privately, write down 10 things you hate, and then go, Well, what does that clarify for me that I love or that I value or that I need? That may go beyond the issue of life purpose, but that's really helpful. Mischa Zvegintzov 16:09I love it. It's great. See that, again, write the Ann O'Brien 16:14things you hate. And then next to each one, consider what does that clarify for you that you love that you need or that you value? And then move towards those things? sermon is important. You know, everyone has psyche, that's the big thing that I talk about, and that I teach you about, we're not meant to just be like, I just did whatever is fine. You know, we are individual beings. And we have a purpose. We're like that spark of light. You know, like every flower is unique. Yeah, still a part of God. Mischa Zvegintzov 16:43Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Okay, so we're gonna, you can find this book, Online, a woman's guide to conscious love by Anna O'Brien, at Amazon and all the fun places. Ann O'Brien 16:57You can go to Anna Lyon living.com, or everyone is psychic.com. Okay, perfect. And that'll link to Amazon. on Audible. There's a lot of guided meditations. It's a workbook two. Oh, so for people that want to just close their eyes and not have to refer to a book, I recommend the audible. Mischa Zvegintzov 17:11I'd love it. And do you find people respond well, to the audible? Definitely. Yeah. And so you have a workbook associated with a sorry, Ann O'Brien 17:19within the book. So you can see here, let me see. You know, there's practices. I don't know how much we can see on the camera. But yes, there's places you can write within the book. There's a lot of guided meditations. Yeah. And there's exercises to do, like, close your eyes and put on a song Mischa Zvegintzov 17:36and dance. Oh, it's amazing. I love Ann O'Brien 17:39meditation. Mischa Zvegintzov 17:41I love it. So good. Thank you. Okay, you referenced some you've said psychic, probably 20 or 30 times, as we've been talking here. And what was the inspiration for everyone is psychic. Ann O'Brien 17:56So this is based on the curriculums I've been teaching for over a decade. Wow, wasn't going to write this book. I had another idea of a book I was gonna write after my first book. And then my mother passed away. And I don't know if you are, you know, those watching listening have had parents pass, but it sort of is this moment of like, like, Come to Jesus, like, what's my life? Mischa Zvegintzov 18:18Yes, I've had it. I've been there. Yeah, absolutely. I Ann O'Brien 18:21was like, of course, like, this is the thing, not that it's the only thing I'll ever write about. But this is the thing. I couldn't leave this life. And I'll be here a while. But you know, I just was like, I have to leave this for the world. 18:33Yeah, this is what I know. So well. And what people have been telling me, I helped them with. Ann O'Brien 18:41I went to those, you know, after a few months of processing, you know, I went into my course curriculums, and I put it into a book. And I wrote for about a year and then I published it and you know, Mischa Zvegintzov 18:51yeah, and it's and today, as we record this, it is April 15. And it's been out a week. So this is fresh, hot off the presses. Right. Like this is exciting for you right now. And obviously has a lot of depth and weight and deep meaning for you. Which is beautiful. We Ann O'Brien 19:12hit the Amazon bestseller in six categories already number one and a couple other categories like pretty high. Mischa Zvegintzov 19:19Oh my gosh. Congratulations. Wow, so fun. We'll check out this book. And then like, give me a like, Tell me about it or what are your favorite things or what what do you like to tell people if they like get this book because Ann O'Brien 19:38yeah, so I would say you know, one of my good friends that I grew up with she's like, and you're the most grounded psychic I've ever met. Yeah, and so for people that think this is not for them or they're not sure if it's for them like this is for everyone that's why I call it everyone is psychic. Yeah, I'm hearing no nonsense boots on the ground like this is how you do it. You know, I've taught my nine year old this stuff since she was old. After her whole life basically, first she was old enough, but I believe Mischa Zvegintzov 20:05she's doing energy clearings on you. She's like, mom, so your energy. Ann O'Brien 20:13I remember one time, her dad was traveling and I was alone with her for like a week. I was like, so overwhelmed because I was working too. And I sat down to meditate. And this one, she was like three or four. She walks into the room. And she's like, talking to me as I'm trying to meditate. I'm like, so overwhelmed. She's like, Mama, I can heal you. And she picks up this crystal won. It's in the courtroom. She's waves it up. And I swear I had the deepest meditation I've had in a long time. Mischa Zvegintzov 20:45That's amazing. Yeah. So she's, I mean, talk about confidence. Yeah, that's amazing. Ann O'Brien 20:51stuff early. It's not hard. It's just, we were taught, you know, and I don't want people to struggle into their teens and 20s. Like I did, yeah, not knowing this stuff, not having any reference point or mentorship or information. Because the psychic senses are as normal as all the other senses. Yeah, there's so many ways that I say if you don't use them, they will use you. Yeah, we get overwhelmed. We pick up stuff that's not ours are crying when we're not sad. We're mad when we're not bad. We have a desire, like, I'm thinking one client I had, you talked about life purpose, like he was really he was a mechanic and he came to me and he's like, am I gonna get this promotion? And I didn't even know what he did. I just was like, you don't like your job? Do you? Like all the energy I can feel about his job? And this idea of a promotion was like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I was like, So what do you want to do? He's like, I want to make video games. I'm like, well, let's, let's help you do that, you know, so we can spend our whole life doing something that's not meant for us. Because we're psychic. Yeah. And we're picking up on the expectations, the desires of other people. So that's just the tip of the iceberg. Mischa Zvegintzov 22:01Oh, my gosh, I could talk to you forever. And I know that. Stacy, whenever Stacey comes by in the background, she's like, you gotta give me that. You gotta give me in back. She's gonna jump into the crowd. So I love that I love the confidence been like, Hey, your confidence, like you want competence and what you do, how you interact with the world, how you interact with your partner with your kids, just like a good confidence. Wow. I love that. I do want to release you back to the crowd and let you go talk about your book because we are at body mind soul. magazine spring release party. What would you want to say about this? Like, just to close? Before I send you that? Ann O'Brien 22:53I would say if anyone is trying to figure out how do I start tapping into their psychic abilities. The number one thing is to be playful to go like a kindergartener and go into a state of wonder. And don't discount what you're getting. Because it feels when you're starting. It feels like you're making stuff up. Yeah. And so if you just kind of run with it, and start with small things, like where am I going to find a parking space? Or who just texted me, let me let me just guess and then look, right. And the more you build your confidence with these little things, and just being playful, you'll get more confident. And if you have people in your life that you can bounce it off of or practice giving each other little readings like that's fun to just, you gotta practice and just trust and play with it. Mischa Zvegintzov 23:34I love it. So good. Anne O'Brien. Oh my gosh, get her book. Whoa, get her books. Clearly amazing. This has been such a pleasant surprise. You were kind of added to the queue and I'm so happy to the interview queue. And again, tell everybody where to find you. Ann O'Brien 23:50Yes, go to everyone is psychic.com or an O'Brien living.com. You can find me on social media at an O'Brien. Thank you so much. Thank you

Ep 11: Procrastination: Why We Wait & What to Do About It

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 10, 2022 27:56

People often think of procrastination as a time management problem, but studies show that it's actually about something much different - avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013, procrastination researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term and let their “future selves” deal with the consequences, somehow believing that their future selves will be able to handle it better. Despite the fact that putting things off may protect us from discomfort temporarily, it's rarely the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. The potential consequences are endless and it can become a habit that holds us back form reaching our potential. That's why in this week's episode, I'm going to share a few pieces of critical information about procrastination and explore some coach-approved strategies that will hopefully help you combat this common issue. Throughout the episode, I also talk to a number of people in my life about their procrastination habits to help provide first person context to our exploration. I'm sure you'll be able to relate to many of their experiences with procrastination! This is also the last episode in our first season of Focus Forward. We will return on October 5th and bring you more relevant topics, fascinating guests, and useful support for you as you work to develop your Executive Function skills. If I've learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast, it is to embrace my fear of failure. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. She says, “discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life”. Hopefully, you can find power in this quote to do the things you want to do - regardless of how scary it might be. Thanks for supporting the show and please feel free to email me at hchoi@beyondbooksmart.com if you have any suggestions for future episodes! Here are some relevant resources related to this episode:Why We ProcrastinateSirois, F. and Pychyl, T. (2013) Procrastination and the Priority of Short-Term Mood Regulation: Consequences for Future SelfWhy People with ADHD Procrastinate - YouTube Video with Tracey MarksInside the mind of a master procrastinator - a TED Talk with Tim UrbanThis is the real reason you procrastinate — and how to break the habit - Read about and find the link to Adam Grant's WorkLife podcast episode on procrastination.Tips and TricksPeg Dawson's Task Initiation Obstacles WorksheetsFor StudentsFor AdultsSteps, Time, Mapping (STM) Project Planning Worksheet A template to use for inspiration when creating your own STM.Do You Shine Under Pressure? How to Manufacture a Sense of Urgency Tips from ADDitude on how to create fake urgency.The Power of Imperfect Starts James Clear's article on getting started and figuring out what is necessary vs. what is optimal.BooksIt's About Time: The Six Styles of Procrastination and How to Overcome Them by Dr. Linda SapadinAtomic Habits by James ClearEat that Frog! 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian TracyList of Books by Russell BarkleyContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingMusic credits: Aso - Sunsetsleavv - VoyageAmbient Guitar - WestlakePurpose - Jonny EastonGateKeeper - The Piano SaysInto the Light - Chill Acoustic GuitarAcoustic Folk Instrumental - HydeTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Do you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:01Sometimes. Hannah Choi 00:02Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:04I think I procrastinate because I just don't want to do it. And I know it's, I think it's gonna be hard. Hannah Choi 00:09And what do you do to get yourself going? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:12I pair it with something that I like doing. Like, I don't like eating spinach. So I always eat or the rice so I can't taste it. Hannah Choi 00:22Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And as you just heard, I am tackling the idea of procrastination in today's episode. That cutie patootie I was just talking with is my 10 year old son, and he is one of the procrastination consultants I interviewed for this episode. Throughout it, you'll hear clips of people in my life who procrastinate and if you stick around until the end, you'll hear from the one person of everyone I asked who does not procrastinate ever? I know! I was surprised to. Hannah Choi 01:06I was talking with my sister Julia about writing this episode. And we both agreed that there are definitely opportunities within an episode on procrastination. I make a lot of jokes about putting stuff off. You know, I could joke about procrastinating about writing this episode. Well, turns out it's no joke, I have actually found getting going on writing this episode harder than most anything else I've written. And when I thought about why this was because you know me, I love a little bit of reflection, I realized it's because I really, really want to get it right. And I have to admit that I'm afraid I won't. I mean, you're all gonna be listening to me chatter on about procrastination. And there are just so many aspects to it. And I definitely can't cover them all in one episode. And there are so many other amazing resources out there already created by all these amazing people. So how can I make sure that I'm creating and contributing something new? It's a lot. Oh, by the way, I've included some of these amazing resources in the show notes. So maybe you can procrastinate from doing your work by checking them out after you're done listening to me. Anyway, my point is that I continually put off working on the episode because of a fear of not getting it right, not getting it perfect. And fear doesn't feel good. So it makes sense that I would avoid a situation that might cause that right. People often think of procrastination as a time management problem. But studies show that it actually often comes down to doing what I did, avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013. And academic study done by some procrastination, researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term, and then let their future selves deal with the consequences. Somehow believing that these future selves will be able to handle it better. I can for sure relate to this and definitely have said, "That's a problem for Future Hannah". While it's a funny thing to say, and humor eases the decision to procrastinate a little, it's not always the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. And today, I'm going to share some ideas about procrastination and some strategies that you will hopefully find useful. Hannah Choi 03:28But first, let's take a quick look at the brain science behind why we avoid things. Procrastination is essentially a result of challenges with task initiation, which is the executive function skill that helps us start doing the things we need to do to get through our day. There are other EF skills that come into play here as well, such as self regulation, the ability to manage our emotions, and metacognition, which helps us understand why we do what we do or don't do in this case. As you may know, these EF skills are managed by the prefrontal cortex, which is located in the front part of our brains, tap on your forehead. It's right in there. Alright, so that's great. If we've got these prefrontal cortexes that are supposed to be helping us, why is it still so hard to get started? And this is where the helpful but sometimes ill-timed limbic system comes into the picture and starts causing havoc. One of the main things the limbic system is responsible for is helping us react quickly to situations that are dangerous or cause discomfort. And this is a good thing when you have just grabbed a hot cast iron frying pan handle. (I did this the other day!) but not so helpful when you're just trying to get your math homework started. The limbic system says, "Alert alert! Get out of here because this does not feel good". So let's check in with my procrastination consultants on this topic and see what they have to say about it.Procrastination Consultant 2 04:58Um, I procrastinate because As I mean, after I've had a long day at school, I have lots of homework and outside responsibilities from other things I'm a part of, and I just kind of want a break. And so I want to move my brain on to other things and not think about all that stuff because it makes me anxious, stressed out.Procrastination Consultant 3 05:15Often if what I need to do involves calling somebody on the telephone, or talking to somebody, I'm not always comfortable in those situations. So I'll often put off doing that.Procrastination Consultant 4 05:30I think I tend to procrastinate when I'm hungry or tired. Because when I do activities, when I'm hungry or tired, I'm often very hard on myself. So then I don't I don't enjoy the activity. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, you can hear them say that they avoid things that cause discomfort. This is their limbic system talking. When they finally do get going. It's because their prefrontal cortex is finally stepping in and taking over the situation. The limbic system has been around since birth, and our prefrontal cortex develops last. So it kind of makes sense that our limbic systems get first dibs on our reaction to stuff we need to do. The brain chemical or neurotransmitter dopamine also plays a big part in motivation, and it can explain why we don't want to do things that are boring. It also explains why people with ADHD often have major struggles with task initiation. When we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and I'm not saying that this hard work and effort is always pleasurable, but what is pleasurable is that we received praise or good grades or some other reward, and then dopamine is produced. This dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine makes it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation, so they do not feel that motivating pleasurable feeling as much as people without ADHD. Something else interesting that I learned from reading Russell Barkley, a renowned ADHD expert, who's written a ton of books on the topic is that people with ADHD have a difficult time seeing time other than right now. So why not put off the sucky stuff and do something that gives you a nice boost of dopamine instead? If this is resonating with you, regardless of your ADHD status, you are not alone. My procrastination consultants shared that boredom was often a reason for putting off tasks. Hannah Choi 07:36Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 5 07:37100%? Absolutely. All the time!Hannah Choi 07:40Do you know why? Procrastination Consultant 5 07:43So for me, if it's not fun and creative, it's pretty much gets put on the backburner every single time. I just get bored of it. And I don't want to do it. So I won't do it.Hannah Choi 07:53Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 6 07:55Because I don't want to do it because it's boring.Procrastination Consultant 7 07:59And generally speaking, the task itself is usually not anything incredibly difficult. But for whatever reason, it's perceived by myself as something that's dreaded. Either it's boring, or I'm not willing to devote the time to sit down and actually started.Procrastination Consultant 8 08:26Like, I always put bills at the top of my list. But do bills always get done. No, they never get done. Hannah Choi 08:33Why not? Procrastination Consultant 8 08:33 I because I procrastinate because I hate it.Hannah Choi 08:36Okay, thanks for sticking with a while, explored the brain a bit. So what can we do about this? How can we battle our brains? How can we overcome that boredom? These brands of ours learn these reactions over years and years from childhood really. So it makes sense that we would react the same over time and find it difficult to change? Is there any way we can ease those uncomfortable emotions and then hack these tasks, so they're not quite so awful, and stop leaving so much undone for those future versions of ourselves. Hannah Choi 09:08So the other day, I counted, and there are about 5 million approaches to help with task initiation. And while I would love to share all of those 5 million ideas with you, I wouldn't have any time left to spend watching my Korean dramas instead of doing the things on my own to do list. And it would also leave you no time to do the things that you like to do instead of what you're supposed to be doing. So I've narrowed my list down from 5 million to five. I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a strategy or approach that works well for you that I don't mention in this episode, shoot me an email and I'll try to share them in a future episode, which I'm sure I'll procrastinate about, and you'll have to wait until 2024 to listen to it. Hannah Choi 09:52Okay. Anyway, so onto my five strategies to make task initiation a little easier and a little less painful. I'll also explain some of the EF skills that you might use for each strategy. First up, make a plan. Practicing the EF skill of planning and prioritizing is always helpful. And for some, it can really make a difference when it comes to getting started. Something we coaches hear often is that the reason our clients don't start something is because it feels so big, sometimes overwhelmingly huge, and they just don't know where to start. I bet you've probably felt that way about something before I know I should have. I really felt this writing this episode. Anyway, the simple act of breaking tasks down into steps is often the nudge that's needed just to get going. And it can also help you find a good place to start. But how do you do this in an organized and effective way. One of my favorite tools that I share with every client I've ever worked with, is called STM or steps time mapping. And I'd be willing to wager that this tool is a favorite in every EF coaches toolbox. You can find a link to a visual for this tool in the show notes. But for now, I'll just describe it to you. To create an STM you write down all the steps involved in your project. And you can get as granular as you'd like here. And then make some guesses about how much time you'll need for each. And then map it out when and maybe even where you'll do the things. Be sure to build in breaks, and maybe even some buffer time at the end, just in case something comes up and you're not able to work on the thing when you thought you'd be able to because I promise you that will happen. It can help to work backwards from the due date to figure out how much buffer time you can actually give yourself and try to be honest with yourself and realistic about how much you're likely to get done in a day. I always ask myself and my clients is this a reasonable amount of work you're asking yourself to do at this time. Hannah Choi 11:54And this idea leads right into my second tip for making it easier to get going. Using the EF skill of metacognition and checking in with yourself to either see how you're feeling or to figure out what barriers are keeping you from getting started can be really helpful. Take some time to figure out what time of day you're most likely to be successful in completing these tasks. In addition to the question about whether it's a reasonable amount of work, I also like to ask when are you most likely to be successful doing this thing. And it may be that you do your best work at unconventional hours so be open to considering working when most others aren't. You might be like my dear friend Bonnie, who finds two in the morning a prime time for getting work done. A tool that can be used to check in with ourselves before starting to work on something we don't want to work on is the halt strategy. And halt was originally developed to help addicts predict when they might relapse at beyond booksmart. We teach this tool to our clients to help them assess how they're doing before starting something. Okay, so H stands for hungry. A is for angry or anxious. L stands for lonely and T for tired. If you're feeling any of these things, taking care of them before getting started might help. And speaking of a for anxious, feeling anxious about doing nothing can really get in the way of getting started. If you're experiencing a lot of anxiety, it might be helpful to get some support from a therapist. If you're not sure where to start, reach out to your doctor and they can provide some guidance. It can also be helpful to do some reflection and ask why you're procrastinating at this particular moment. What is stopping you? Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and a guest on a previous episode of this podcast has an excellent activity that might help you figure out why you're procrastinating and come up with a plan to get past that stuck feeling. Her tool is linked in the show notes. So please check it out. Hannah Choi 13:58Okay, so next up is to be sure to create a good environment, it's worthwhile to take some time to consider steps that you can take to set yourself up for success. The EF skills of self regulation, flexible thinking and organization come into play here. So you could pair the thing that you don't want to do with something that you do like to do. You could fold that dreaded laundry while watching a show. You might want to consider choosing a show you've seen before or when that you won't get sucked into. You could listen to music or an audio book while you mow the lawn or try out a new podcast on your morning run.Hannah Choi 14:35You can work with a buddy this strategy is called body doubling. Make sure it's someone who won't distract you from your work or give you a hard time if you're struggling to stay focused. A college client of mine has identified two friends of hers with whom she can study and they're motivated to study which helps her get into it. You can make sure you have a special snack that comforts you or one that you can just use as a reward. Maybe every time you finish A paragraph or even just a sentence on that paper you've been struggling with, you get to eat some m&ms. It can also help to take some time to set up a good workspace. Make sure you've got the supplies you need and good lighting. Wearing noise cancelling headphones can help if you're in a noisy area, or you have to share a workspace and maybe try putting up a Do Not Disturb sign. This can let others know that you're trying to get stuff done. For some people changing up your location can help. So maybe try working at the public library or at a friend's house, or even just out on your back deck. Hannah Choi 15:32Okay, next up, start small and stay small! The tool I mentioned before that STM that's a great example of starting small, the first step of using that tool is to break your big task down into small tasks. Time management, planning and prioritizing are the EF skills that come up most of this strategy. If I'm having trouble getting started on something I'm writing like this episode, for example, I always make an outline. And my outline doesn't even start off looking like an actual outline, I just do a messy brain dump. And I type some words that come to me on the page. And actually, you don't even have to type. You can use voice recognition software. If you're working in Google Docs, turn on the Google Voice type in the Tools menu. And you can just dump the contents of your brain right onto the paper without even lifting a finger. You can also use a speech to text app right on your phone. Another great strategy that many Beyond BookSmart coaches share with their clients is the beloved Five-Minute Goals. This is such a great strategy because it both gets you to do the thing, but it also gives you an out. You only have to do the thing for five minutes or even two minutes if five feels like too long. Okay, so you set a timer and do the thing when the timer goes off, I'm willing to bet you that you'll experience what my daughter shared. Procrastination Consultant 4 16:57Well, sometimes I like to say just do it for a minute, because then eventually I'll forget about it and just keep going. Hannah Choi 17:06Okay, if I'm wrong, and you can't relate to what she said, and you find yourself praising the timer gods and being glad that the five minutes is over, maybe it's not a great time for you to do the thing anyway. We know that starting small is essential and so is continuing this approach while you work. Continually breaking things down into small chunks is a great way to help yourself get through the things you don't want to do. Don't expect your effort to be effective for hours without a break. And if you discover a new task within the larger thing that you're doing, be sure to break that down toHannah Choi 17:43Okay, My fifth tip goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how I was struggling to get started on this podcast because I wasn't sure if I could do it the right way. So my advice is to try to be okay with imperfection, which to some of you is gonna sound impossible. I know. I totally get it. This is personally what often gets in the way of me getting started. self regulation and flexible thinking are two of the EF skills that can help one of my favorite books about procrastination. It's about time by Linda Sapadin. In it Dr. Sapadin writes about how perfectionist procrastinators are aiming for you guessed it perfection. And since they know that the risk of failing to reach perfection is extremely high, they may put the thing off entirely to avoid failure, or wait until last minute so they can blame what they see as an imperfect product on something else other than themselves. If this resonates with you, you might try working on striving for excellence instead of perfection. High performing successful athletes are coached for this and it works. So go for really great not perfect. Hannah Choi 18:56Dr. Sapadin suggests changing your language, instead of saying "I should do this thing". Try saying "I could do this thing". This shifts your thinking from seeing the thing that you have to do as a burden to seeing it from a viewpoint of realism and choice. I feel like you could use this change in language as an opportunity to throw in some of the other strategies here too. "I should write this episode on procrastination" becomes "I could write this episode on procrastination sitting on the back deck rewarding myself with five m&ms after I finished a sentence". Excuse me while I go raid my kids' Halloween candy. Hannah Choi 19:36I think a lot of perfectionist procrastinators would likely benefit from some reflection on their relationship with failure. Like I said in the episode on failure, when scientists do experiments to create or test something they don't look for perfection right away. If they did, nothing would ever get invented. Right? One of my favorites, James Clear who is the author of Atomic Habits wrote a great article on his blog about this idea, you can find the link to the article in the show notes. And in it, he encourages us to be honest with ourselves and figure out what is needed versus what is optimal. Yeah, of course, we'd love to be able to dive into something with everything all perfect. So we can have this perfect outcome, but it's just not realistic. And it's also not as interesting, we learn a heck of a lot more about the thing that we're tackling and about ourselves. And we actually allow ourselves to create without fear of imperfection, the results of this are actually just beautifully messy iterations of the thing we're working towards, they're stepping stones towards something we can be happy with. And creating space for these iterations can't happen if we leave things to the last minute, right. Many of my procrastination consultants said they rely on urgency. Procrastination Consultant 2 20:55Most of the time, it's deadlines. And like a sense of urgency that makes me makes me want to do it.Procrastination Consultant 5 21:02Deadlines. Usually, that's what motivates me, I just have no more time left to put it off. And then I have to do it. And I also just like to work under pressure. It just gives me that adrenaline to get it done.Procrastination Consultant 3 21:15What I do to get going, is either come up against a deadline where I have no choice, and I simply have to do it. No excuses.Procrastination Consultant 9 21:25I think it's because I'm motivated by deadlines and I only will start to start a project or something. If I'm moving close that deadline, and I get anxiety inducing effects of that. And that motivates me to then start.Procrastination Consultant 10 21:40I think deadlines approaching faster, like I will absolutely do it. When it's like okay, I can do this, and it's due in 10 minutes, or I need to do this by tomorrow, then I'll finally, that's what forces me honestly, nothing else will get me to do it. Unless the deadline is like, right there. Hannah Choi 21:58I'm guessing that many of you listening are nodding your head saying Yep, that's me. You may like working this way. And if you do, you'll hear no judgement from me. I do encourage you to keep listening though there may be a way to break free from the urgency reliance. Hannah Choi 22:13Okay, let's jump back into our brains for a sec. Remember that limbic system from the beginning of this episode? Well, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, and it's responsible for the flight or fight response you've likely heard of, and probably experienced, well, waiting till the last minute and relying on urgency to get stuff done is stressful, whether we realize it or not. And it causes our brains to be hijacked by the amygdala. And during an amygdala hijack, our bodies release stress hormones, which are not great. So out of concern for your beautiful brains and your healthy bodies, I challenge those of you who use urgency as a motivator to experiment with not relying on urgency with not waiting for that adrenaline to kick in and force you to get the work done. I totally get that this may seem utterly impossible to you. Or you might not even be interested in trying, but at least hear me out. If you feel like you must absolutely rely on urgency, you might try building in fake urgency. Of course, this requires you to basically trick yourself into thinking the thing needs to be done earlier than it truly does, which I admit sounds pretty difficult. But try just try starting something just like a tiny bit earlier than you normally would use some of the strategies I just explored, especially the ones where you work to break the large tasks down into smaller tasks. These mini deadlines can help. And this is also why building in that buffer time I mentioned earlier in the episode is so helpful. With buffer time, we can adjust how small our steps are. Some days you're going to be feeling ultra-productive and others will just be a slog. giving ourselves the space to keep things small can really help on those days. But leaving it to the last minute doesn't allow for that and then we have to push through regardless of how we feel. This strategy is what works well for me. If I leave things to the last minute my anxiety takes over and makes it so I can't even do a task at all. One of my consultants shared that she experiences this too. Procrastination Consultant 10 24:25Packing and stuff? I knew I needed to start packing I didn't procrastinate because I'm like, oh, that's gonna stress me out if I wait too late. I don't know I'd like selective procrastination. Hannah Choi 24:34If you aren't able to break free from urgency and start even just a tiny bit earlier, use your metacognition to notice how you feel and notice the quality of your work. I'm willing to wager a good amount of m&ms that you'll have a better experience feel better about your work and in turn feel better about yourself. Hannah Choi 24:57This is the last episode of our first You send a focus forward, and we will return on October 5, and will bring you more interesting topics, fascinating guests and support for you as you work to develop your executive function skills. If I have learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast it is to embrace my fear of failure. It has taken a lot of work and it will continue to take a lot of work. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. And Susan says "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And this podcast has added more meaning to my life than I ever imagined and it was one of the hardest and most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I have to admit that this episode in particular was originally scheduled for much earlier in this podcast season. But in an ironic twist due to scheduling changes, and my own perfectionist procrastination tendencies, it ended up being the perfect topic for the last episode of the season. I know my lesson here is to not go for perfection, but sometimes you end up with it when you just try for excellence.Hannah Choi 26:13I can't even begin to thank you, our listeners enough for all the support you've given me and my podcast team over the past 11 episodes. I want to personally thank Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, Mimi Fernandez and Jackie Hebert for all of their help from the beginning. And special thanks to Annabel Furber, Barbara Garvin-Kester, Denise McMahon, John Frank and Michael Delman for their help on this episode. And a very, very special shout out for my procrastination consultants who also happen to be very special people in my life: Graham, Eliza, Bonnie, Isabelle, Nikolai, Justice, Maura, Julia, Aidan, Lynette, and William. And as always, thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we've covered in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with the special people in your life. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when the first episode of the new season drops and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening. Oh, and I didn't forget - here's Maura sharing her experience with procrastination, or should I say not procrastinating? Hannah Choi 27:34Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 11 27:35Never, never. No, no, no, I'm like the kind of person. If I have something to do, I have to do. Why, why I do tomorrow if I can do now or today?

What He Said / What He Did: Lectio Divina Week 9

Calvary Church Los Gatos

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 10, 2022 5:24

As we walk through the book of Mark this summer we're using a process called Lectio Divina to prayerfully meditate on specific passages. In this first week, we're focusing on Mark 1:35-37. You can follow along below or just listen. For more on this teaching series visit https://www.calvarylg.com/markPreparationFind a place where you can sit comfortably and without distraction. Pay attention to your posture and your breathing. Breathe slowly and deeply. Quiet your mind, giving yourself grace when it wanders. Use the following to guide you through your time with the Lord today.Prayer of InvitationI acknowledge God is with me and I ask Him to speak through the passage I'm about to read.God I know you are with me. Thank you for being here now. I pause to be still and to hear from you in this moment. Holy Spirit speak through the Word and fill my heart with the truth you want me to see, hear and live today.ReadAs I read the passage for today, slowly and out loud, I allow the words to sink deep into my heart and mind.If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. Mark 3:24-25[Pause]ReflectAs I prepare to read the passage out loud again, I pause to pray:Father, your Word is living and active and I know You speak through it to your people. Would You highlight a word or phrase You want to share uniquely with me today?If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. Mark 3:24-25Mark 3:13-16As I sense God highlight a word or phrase for me, I repeat that word or phrase, several times, quietly in my mind.[Pause]RehearseAs I read the passage out loud one final time, I allow the passage and God's Word for me sink in, I ask him specifically what next step He's asking me to take today.Father, how do you want me to apply this to my life today? Is there something I need to release to you? Is there something I need to repent of and turn back towards You? is there something You're calling me to step into today?If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. Mark 3:24-25I write a single sentence that reinforces how he's asking me to apply what I experienced to my life today.[Pause]As I prepare to take my time with the Lord into my day, I remember, Jesus who loves me says:“Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”And I align myself with Jesus, praying the model he used when teaching the disciples, by praying the Lord's prayer:“Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."Amen

god jesus christ father lord prayer holy spirit quiet breathe amen our father lectio divina 25i 25mark

36: Will MacAskill - Longtermism, Altruism, History, & Technology

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 9, 2022 56:07

Will MacAskill is one of the founders of the Effective Altruist movement and the author of the upcoming book, What We Owe The Future.We talk about improving the future, risk of extinction & collapse, technological & moral change, problems of academia, who changes history, and much more.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform.Read the full transcript here.Follow Will on Twitter. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.Subscribe to find out about future episodes!Timestamps(00:23) - Effective Altruism and Western values(07:47) - The contingency of technology(12:02) - Who changes history?(18:00) - Longtermist institutional reform(25:56) - Are companies longtermist?(28:57) - Living in an era of plasticity(34:52) - How good can the future be?(39:18) - Contra Tyler Cowen on what’s most important(45:36) - AI and the centralization of power(51:34) - The problems with academiaPlease share if you enjoyed this episode! Helps out a ton!TranscriptDwarkesh Patel 0:06Okay, today I have the pleasure of interviewing William MacAskill. Will is one of the founders of the Effective Altruism movement, and most recently, the author of the upcoming book, What We Owe The Future. Will, thanks for coming on the podcast.Will MacAskill 0:20Thanks so much for having me on.Effective Altruism and Western valuesDwarkesh Patel 0:23My first question is: What is the high-level explanation for the success of the Effective Altruism movement? Is it itself an example of the contingencies you talk about in the book?Will MacAskill 0:32Yeah, I think it is contingent. Maybe not on the order of, “this would never have happened,” but at least on the order of decades. Evidence that Effective Altruism is somewhat contingent is that similar ideas have been promoted many times during history, and not taken on.We can go back to ancient China, the Mohists defended an impartial view of morality, and took very strategic actions to help all people. In particular, providing defensive assistance to cities under siege. Then, there were early utilitarians. Effective Altruism is broader than utilitarianism, but has some similarities. Even Peter Singer in the 70s had been promoting the idea that we should be giving most of our income to help the very poor — and didn’t get a lot of traction until early 2010 after GiveWell and Giving What We Can launched.What explains the rise of it? I think it was a good idea waiting to happen. At some point, the internet helped to gather together a lot of like-minded people which wasn’t possible otherwise. There were some particularly lucky events like Alex meeting Holden and me meeting Toby that helped catalyze it at the particular time it did.Dwarkesh Patel 1:49If it's true, as you say, in the book, that moral values are very contingent, then shouldn't that make us suspect that modern Western values aren't that good? They're mediocre, or worse, because ex ante, you would expect to end up with a median of all the values we could have had at this point. Obviously, we'd be biased in favor of whatever values we were brought up in.Will MacAskill 2:09Absolutely. Taking history seriously and appreciating the contingency of values, appreciating that if the Nazis had won the World War, we would all be thinking, “wow, I'm so glad that moral progress happened the way it did, and we don't have Jewish people around anymore. What huge moral progress we had then!” That's a terrifying thought. I think it should make us take seriously the fact that we're very far away from the moral truth.One of the lessons I draw in the book is that we should not think we're at the end of moral progress. We should not think, “Oh, we should lock in the Western values we have.” Instead, we should spend a lot of time trying to figure out what's actually morally right, so that the future is guided by the right values, rather than whichever happened to win out.Dwarkesh Patel 2:56So that makes a lot of sense. But I'm asking a slightly separate question—not only are there possible values that could be better than ours, but should we expect our values - we have the sense that we've made moral progress (things are better than they were before or better than most possible other worlds in 2100 or 2200)- should we not expect that to be the case? Should our priors be that these are ‘meh’ values?Will MacAskill 3:19Our priors should be that our values are as good as expected on average. Then you can make an assessment like, “Are other values of today going particularly well?” There are some arguments you could make for saying no. Perhaps if the Industrial Revolution happened in India, rather than in Western Europe, then perhaps we wouldn't have wide-scale factory farming—which I think is a moral atrocity. Having said that, my view is to think that we're doing better than average.If civilization were just a redraw, then things would look worse in terms of our moral beliefs and attitudes. The abolition of slavery, the feminist movement, liberalism itself, democracy—these are all things that we could have lost and are huge gains.Dwarkesh Patel 4:14If that's true, does that make the prospect of a long reflection dangerous? If moral progress is a random walk, and we've ended up with a lucky lottery, then you're possibly reversing. Maybe you're risking regression to the mean if you just have 1,000 years of progress.Will MacAskill 4:30Moral progress isn't a random walk in general. There are many forces that act on culture and on what people believe. One of them is, “What’s right, morally speaking? What's their best arguments support?” I think it's a weak force, unfortunately.The idea of lumbar flexion is getting society into a state that before we take any drastic actions that might lock in a particular set of values, we allow this force of reason and empathy and debate and goodhearted model inquiry to guide which values we end up with.Are we unwise?Dwarkesh Patel 5:05In the book, you make this interesting analogy where humans at this point in history are like teenagers. But another common impression that people have of teenagers is that they disregard wisdom and tradition and the opinions of adults too early and too often. And so, do you think it makes sense to extend the analogy this way, and suggest that we should be Burkean Longtermists and reject these inside-view esoteric threats?Will MacAskill 5:32My view goes the opposite of the Burkean view. We are cultural creatures in our nature, and are very inclined to agree with what other people think even if we don't understand the underlying mechanisms. It works well in a low-change environment. The environment we evolved towards didn't change very much. We were hunter-gatherers for hundreds of years.Now, we're in this period of enormous change, where the economy is doubling every 20 years, new technologies arrive every single year. That's unprecedented. It means that we should be trying to figure things out from first principles.Dwarkesh Patel 6:34But at current margins, do you think that's still the case? If a lot of EA and longtermist thought is first principles, do you think that more history would be better than the marginal first-principles thinker?Will MacAskill 6:47Two things. If it's about an understanding of history, then I'd love EA to have a better historical understanding. The most important subject if you want to do good in the world is philosophy of economics. But we've got that in abundance compared to there being very little historical knowledge in the EA community.Should there be even more first-principles thinking? First-principles thinking paid off pretty well in the course of the Coronavirus pandemic. From January 2020, my Facebook wall was completely saturated with people freaking out, or taking it very seriously in a way that the existing institutions weren't. The existing institutions weren't properly updating to a new environment and new evidence.The contingency of technologyDwarkesh Patel 7:47In your book, you point out several examples of societies that went through hardship. Hiroshima after the bombings, Europe after the Black Death—they seem to have rebounded relatively quickly. Does this make you think that perhaps the role of contingency in history, especially economic history is not that large? And it implies a Solow model of growth? That even if bad things happen, you can rebound and it really didn't matter?Will MacAskill 8:17In economic terms, that's the big difference between economic or technological progress and moral progress. In the long run, economic or technological progress is very non-contingent. The Egyptians had an early version of the steam engine, semaphore was only developed very late yet could have been invented thousands of years in the past.But in the long run, the instrumental benefits of tech progress, and the incentives towards tech progress and economic growth are so strong, that we get there in a wide array of circumstances. Imagine there're thousands of different societies, and none are growing except for one. In the long run, that one becomes the whole economy.Dwarkesh Patel 9:10It seems that particular example you gave of the Egyptians having some ancient form of a steam engine points towards there being more contingency? Perhaps because the steam engine comes up in many societies, but it only gets turned into an industrial revolution in one?Will MacAskill 9:22In that particular case, there's a big debate about whether quality of metalwork made it actually possible to build a proper steam engine at that time. I mentioned those to share some amazing examples of contingency prior to the Industrial Revolution.It's still contingency on the order of centuries to thousands of years. Post industrial-revolution world, there's much less contingency. It's much harder to see technologies that wouldn't have happened within decades if they hadn't been developed when they were.Dwarkesh Patel 9:57The model here is, “These general-purpose changes in the state of technology are contingent, and it'd be very important to try to engineer one of those. But other than that, it's going to get done by some guy creating a start-up anyways?”Will MacAskill 10:11Even in the case of the steam engine that seemed contingent, it gets developed in the long run. If the Industrial Revolution hadn't happened in Britain in the 18th century, would it have happened at some point? Would similar technologies that were vital to the industrial revolution developed? Yes, there are very strong incentives for doing so.If there’s a culture that's into making textiles in an automated way as opposed to England in the 18th century, then that economy will take over the world. There's a structural reason why economic growth is much less contingent than moral progress.Dwarkesh Patel 11:06When people think of somebody like Norman Borlaug and the Green Revolution. It's like, “If you could have done something that, you'd be the greatest person in the 20th century.” Obviously, he's still a very good man, but would that not be our view? Do you think the green revolution would have happened anyways?Will MacAskill 11:22Yes. Norman Borlaug is sometimes credited with saving a billion lives. He was huge. He was a good force for the world. Had Norman Borlaug not existed, I don’t think a billion people would have died. Rather, similar developments would have happened shortly afterwards.Perhaps he saved tens of millions of lives—and that's a lot of lives for a person to save. But, it's not as many as simply saying, “Oh, this tech was used by a billion people who would have otherwise been at risk of starvation.” In fact, not long afterwards, there were similar kinds of agricultural development.Who changes history?Dwarkesh Patel 12:02What kind of profession or career choice tends to lead to the highest counterfactual impact? Is it moral philosophers?Will MacAskill 12:12Not quite moral philosophers, although there are some examples. Sticking on science technology, if you look at Einstein, theory of special relativity would have been developed shortly afterwards. However, theory of general relativity was plausibly decades in advance. Sometimes, you get surprising leaps. But, we're still only talking about decades rather than millennia. Moral philosophers could make long-term difference. Marx and Engels made an enormous, long-run difference. Religious leaders like Mohammed, Jesus, and Confucius made enormous and contingent, long-run difference. Moral activists as well.Dwarkesh Patel 13:04If you think that the changeover in the landscape of ideas is very quick today, would you still think that somebody like Marx will be considered very influential in the long future? Communism lasted less than a century, right?Will MacAskill 13:20As things turned out, Marx will not be influential over the long term future. But that could have gone another way. It's not such a wildly different history. Rather than liberalism emerging dominant in the 20th century, it was communism. The better technology gets, the better the ruling ideology is to cement its ideology and persist for a long time. You can get a set of knock-on effects where communism wins the war of ideas in the 20th century.Let’s say a world-government is based around those ideas, then, via anti-aging technology, genetic-enhancement technology, cloning, or artificial intelligence, it's able to build a society that possesses forever in accordance with that ideology.Dwarkesh Patel 14:20The death of dictators is especially interesting when you're thinking about contingency because there are huge changes in the regime. It makes me think the actual individual there was very important and who they happened to be was contingent and persistent in some interesting ways.Will MacAskill 14:37If you've got a dictatorship, then you've got single person ruling the society. That means it's heavily contingent on the views, values, beliefs, and personality of that person.Scientific talentDwarkesh Patel 14:48Going back to the second nation, in the book, you're very concerned about fertility. It seems your model about scientific and technological progress happens is number of people times average researcher productivity. If resource productivity is declining and the number of people isn't growing that fast, then that's concerning.Will MacAskill 15:07Yes, number of people times fraction of the population devoted to R&D.Dwarkesh Patel 15:11Thanks for the clarification. It seems that there have been a lot of intense concentrations of talent and progress in history. Venice, Athens, or even something like FTX, right? There are 20 developers making this a multibillion dollar company—do these examples suggest that organization and congregation of researchers matter more than the total amount?Will MacAskill 15:36The model works reasonably well. Throughout history, you start from a very low technological baseline compared to today. Most people aren't even trying to innovate. One argument for why Baghdad lost its Scientific Golden Age is because the political landscape changed such that what was incentivized was theological investigation rather than scientific investigation in the 10th/11th century AD.Similarly, one argument for why Britain had a scientific and industrial revolution rather than Germany was because all of the intellectual talent in Germany was focused on making amazing music. That doesn't compound in the way that making textiles does. If you look at like Sparta versus Athens, what was the difference? They had different cultures and intellectual inquiry was more rewarded in Athens.Because they're starting from a lower base, people trying to do something that looks like what we now think of as intellectual inquiry have an enormous impact.Dwarkesh Patel 16:58If you take an example like Bell Labs, the low-hanging fruit is gone by the late 20th century. You have this one small organization that has six Nobel Prizes. Is this a coincidence?Will MacAskill 17:14I wouldn't say that at all. The model we’re working with is the size of the population times the fraction of the population doing R&D. It's the simplest model you can have. Bell Labs is punching above its weight. You can create amazing things from a certain environment with the most productive people and putting them in an environment where they're ten times more productive than they would otherwise be.However, when you're looking at the grand sweep of history, those effects are comparatively small compared to the broader culture of a society or the sheer size of a population.Longtermist institutional reformDwarkesh Patel 18:00I want to talk about your paper on longtermist institutional reform. One of the things you advocate in this paper is that we should have one of the houses be dedicated towards longtermist priorities. Can you name some specific performance metrics you would use to judge or incentivize the group of people who make up this body?Will MacAskill 18:23The thing I'll caveat with longtermist institutions is that I’m pessimistic about them. If you're trying to represent or even give consideration to future people, you have to face the fact that they're not around and they can't lobby for themselves. However, you could have an assembly of people who have some legal regulatory power. How would you constitute that? My best guess is you have a random selection from the population? How would you ensure that incentives are aligned?In 30-years time, their performance will be assessed by a panel of people who look back and assess the policies’ effectiveness. Perhaps the people who are part of this assembly have their pensions paid on the basis of that assessment. Secondly, the people in 30-years time, both their policies and their assessment of the previous 30-years previous assembly get assessed by another assembly, 30-years after that, and so on. Can you get that to work? Maybe in theory—I’m skeptical in practice, but I would love some country to try it and see what happens.There is some evidence that you can get people to take the interests of future generations more seriously by just telling them their role. There was one study that got people to put on ceremonial robes, and act as trustees of the future. And they did make different policy recommendations than when they were just acting on the basis of their own beliefs and self-interest.Dwarkesh Patel 20:30If you are on that board that is judging these people, is there a metric like GDP growth that would be good heuristics for assessing past policy decisions?Will MacAskill 20:48There are some things you could do: GDP growth, homelessness, technological progress. I would absolutely want there to be an expert assessment of the risk of catastrophe. We don't have this yet, but imagine a panel of super forecasters predicting the chance of a war between great powers occurring in the next ten years that gets aggregated into a war index.That would be a lot more important than the stock market index. Risk of catastrophe would be helpful to feed into because you wouldn't want something only incentivizing economic growth at the expense of tail risks.Dwarkesh Patel 21:42Would that be your objection to a scheme like Robin Hanson’s about maximizing the expected future GDP using prediction markets and making decisions that way?Will MacAskill 21:50Maximizing future GDP is an idea I associate with Tyler Cowen. With Robin Hanson’s idea of voting on values but betting on beliefs, if people can vote on what collection of goods they want, GDP and unemployment might be good metrics. Beyond that, it's pure prediction markets. It's something I'd love to see tried. It’s an idea of speculative political philosophy about how a society could be extraordinarily different in structure that is incredibly neglected.Do I think it'll work in practice? Probably not. Most of these ideas wouldn't work. Prediction markets can be gamed or are simply not liquid enough. There hasn’t been a lot of success in prediction markets compared to forecasting. Perhaps you can solve these things. You have laws about what things can be voted on or predicted in the prediction market, you could have government subsidies to ensure there's enough liquidity. Overall, it's likely promising and I'd love to see it tried out on a city-level or something.Dwarkesh Patel 23:13Let’s take a scenario where the government starts taking the impact on the long-term seriously and institutes some reforms to integrate that perspective. As an example, you can take a look at the environmental movement. There're environmental review boards that will try to assess the environmental impact of new projects and repeal any proposals based on certain metrics.The impact here, at least in some cases, has been that groups that have no strong, plausible interest in the environment are able to game these mechanisms in order to prevent projects that would actually help the environment. With longtermism, it takes a long time to assess the actual impact of something, but policymakers are tasked with evaluating the long term impacts of something. Are you worried that it'd be a system that'd be easy to game by malicious actors? And they'd ask, “What do you think went wrong with the way that environmentalism was codified into law?”Will MacAskill 24:09It's potentially a devastating worry. You create something to represent future people, but they're not allowed to lobby themselves (it can just be co-opted). My understanding of environmental impact statements has been similar. Similarly, it's not like the environment can represent itself—it can't say what its interests are. What is the right answer there? Maybe there are speculative proposals about having a representative body that assesses these things and elect jobs by people in 30-years time. That's the best we've got at the moment, but we need a lot more thought to see if any of these proposals would be robust for the long term rather than things that are narrowly-focused.Regulation to have liability insurance for dangerous bio labs is not about trying to represent the interests of future generations. But, it's very good for the long-term. At the moment, if longtermists are trying to change the government, let's focus on a narrow set of institutional changes that are very good for the long-term even if they're not in the game of representing the future. That's not to say I'm opposed to all such things. But, there are major problems with implementation for any of them.Dwarkesh Patel 25:35If we don't know how we would do it correctly, did you have an idea of how environmentalism could have been codified better? Why was that not a success in some cases?Will MacAskill 25:46Honestly, I don't have a good understanding of that. I don't know if it's intrinsic to the matter or if you could’ve had some system that wouldn't have been co-opted in the long-term.Are companies longtermist?Dwarkesh Patel 25:56Theoretically, the incentives of our most long-term U.S. institutions is to maximize future cash flow. Explicitly and theoretically, they should have an incentive to do the most good they can for their own company—which implies that the company can’t be around if there’s an existential risk…Will MacAskill 26:18I don't think so. Different institutions have different rates of decay associated with them. So, a corporation that is in the top 200 biggest companies has a half-life of only ten years. It’s surprisingly short-lived. Whereas, if you look at universities Oxford and Cambridge are 800 years old. University of Bologna is even older. These are very long-lived institutions.For example, Corpus Christi at Oxford was making a decision about having a new tradition that would occur only every 400 years. It makes that kind of decision because it is such a long-lived institution. Similarly, the legends can be even longer-lived again. That type of natural half-life really affects the decisions a company would make versus a university versus a religious institution.Dwarkesh Patel 27:16Does that suggest that there's something fragile and dangerous about trying to make your institution last for a long time—if companies try to do that and are not able to?Will MacAskill 27:24Companies are composed of people. Is it in the interest of a company to last for a long time? Is it in the interests of the people who constitute the company (like the CEO and the board and the shareholders) for that company to last a long time? No, they don't particularly care. Some of them do, but most don't. Whereas other institutions go both ways. This is the issue of lock-in that I talked about at length in What We Owe The future: you get moments of plasticity during the formation of a new institution.Whether that’s the Christian church or the Constitution of the United States, you lock-in a certain set of norms. That can be really good. Looking back, the U.S. Constitution seems miraculous as the first democratic constitution. As I understand it, it was created over a period of four months seems to have stood the test of time. Alternatively, lock-in norms could be extremely dangerous. There were horrible things in the U.S. Constitution like the legal right to slavery proposed as a constitutional amendment. If that had locked in, it would have been horrible. It's hard to answer in the abstract because it depends on the thing that's persisting for a long time.Living in an era of plasticityDwarkesh Patel 28:57You say in the book that you expect our current era to be a moment of plasticity. Why do you think that is?Will MacAskill 29:04There are specific types of ‘moments of plasticity’ for two reasons. One is a world completely unified in a way that's historically unusual. You can communicate with anyone instantaneously and there's a great diversity of moral views. We can have arguments, like people coming on your podcast can debate what's morally correct. It's plausible to me that one of many different sets of moral views become the most popular ultimately.Secondly, we're at this period where things can really change. But, it's a moment of plasticity because it could plausibly come to an end — and the moral change that we're used to could end in the coming decades. If there was a single global culture or world government that preferred ideological conformity, combined with technology, it becomes unclear why that would end over the long-term? The key technology here is Artificial Intelligence. The point in time (which may be sooner than we think) where the rulers of the world are digital rather than biological, that [ideological conformity] could persist.Once you've got that and a global hegemony of a single ideology, there's not much reason for that set of values to change over time. You've got immortal leaders and no competition. What are the other kind of sources of value-change over time? I think they can be accounted for too.Dwarkesh Patel 30:46Isn't the fact that we are in a time of interconnectedness that won't last if we settle space — isn't that bit of reason for thinking that lock-in is not especially likely? If your overlords are millions of light years away, how well can they control you?Will MacAskill 31:01The “whether” you have is whether the control will happen before the point of space settlement. If we took to space one day, and there're many different settlements and different solar systems pursuing different visions of the good, then you're going to maintain diversity for a very long time (given the physics of the matter).Once a solar system has been settled, it's very hard for other civilizations to come along and conquer you—at least if we're at a period of technological maturity where there aren't groundbreaking technologies to be discovered. But, I'm worried that the control will happen earlier. I'm worried the control might happen this century, within our lifetimes. I don't think it’s very likely, but it's seriously on the table - 10% or something?Dwarkesh Patel 31:53Hm, right. Going back to the long-term of the longtermism movement, there are many instructive foundations that were set up about a century ago like the Rockefeller Foundation, Carnegie Foundation. But, they don't seem to be especially creative or impactful today. What do you think went wrong? Why was there, if not value drift, some decay of competence and leadership and insight?Will MacAskill 32:18I don't have strong views about those particular examples, but I have two natural thoughts. For organizations that want to persist a long time and keep having an influence for a long time, they’ve historically specified their goals in far too narrow terms. One fun example is Benjamin Franklin. He invested a thousand pounds for each of the cities of Philadelphia and Boston to pay out after 100 years and then 200 years for different fractions of the amount invested. But, he specified it to help blacksmith apprentices. You might think this doesn't make much sense when you’re in the year 2000. He could have invested more generally: for the prosperity of people in Philadelphia and Boston. It would have had plausibly more impact.The second is a ‘regression to the mean’ argument. You have some new foundation and it's doing an extraordinary amount of good as the Rockefeller Foundation did. Over time, if it's exceptional in some dimension, it's probably going to get closer to average on that dimension. This is because you’re changing the people involved. If you've picked exceptionally competent and farsighted people, the next generation are statistically going to be less so.Dwarkesh Patel 33:40Going back to that hand problem: if you specify your mission too narrowly and it doesn't make sense in the future—is there a trade off? If you're too broad, you make space for future actors—malicious or uncreative—to take the movement in ways that you would not approve of? With regards to doing good for Philadelphia, what if it turns into something that Ben Franklin would not have thought is good for Philadelphia?Will MacAskill 34:11It depends on what your values and views are. If Benjamin Franklin only cared about blacksmith's apprentices, then he was correct to specify it. But my own values tend to be quite a bit more broad than that. Secondly, I expect people in the future to be smarter and more capable. It’s certainly the trend over time. In which case, if we’re sharing similar broad goals, and they're implementing it in a different way, then they have it.How good can the future be?Dwarkesh Patel 34:52Let's talk about how good we should expect the future to be. Have you come across Robin Hanson’s argument that we’ll end up being subsistence-level ems because there'll be a lot of competition and minimizing compute per digital person will create a barely-worth-living experience for every entity?Will MacAskill 35:11Yeah, I'm familiar with the argument. But, we should distinguish the idea that ems are at subsistence level from the idea that we would have bad lives. So subsistence means that you get a balance of income per capita and population growth such that being poorer would cause deaths to outweigh additional births.That doesn't tell you about their well-being. You could be very poor as an emulated being but be in bliss all the time. That's perfectly consistent with the Malthusian theory. It might seem far away from the best possible future, but it could still be very good. At subsistence, those ems could still have lives that are thousands of times better than ours.Dwarkesh Patel 36:02Speaking of being poor and happy, there was a very interesting section in the chapter where you mentioned the study you had commissioned: you were trying to find out if people in the developing world find life worth living. It turns out that 19% of Indians would not want to relive their life every moment. But, 31% of Americans said that they would not want to relive their life at every moment? So, why are Indians seemingly much happier at less than a tenth of the GDP per capita?Will MacAskill 36:29I think the numbers are lower than that from memory, at least. From memory, it’s something more like 9% of Indians wouldn't want to live their lives again if they had the option, and 13% of Americans said they wouldn’t. You are right on the happiness metric, though. The Indians we surveyed were more optimistic about their lives, happier with their lives than people in the US were. Honestly, I don't want to generalize too far from that because we were sampling comparatively poor Americans to comparatively well-off Indians. Perhaps it's just a sample effect.There are also weird interactions with Hinduism and the belief in reincarnation that could mess up the generalizability of this. On one hand, I don't want to draw any strong conclusion from that. But, it is pretty striking as a piece of information, given that you find people's well-being in richer countries considerably happier than poorer countries, on average.Dwarkesh Patel 37:41I guess you do generalize in a sense that you use it as evidence that most lives today are living, right?Will MacAskill 37:50Exactly. So, I put together various bits of evidence, where approximately 10% of people in the United States and 10% of people in India seem to think that their lives are net negative. They think they contain more suffering than happiness and wouldn't want to be reborn and live the same life if they could.There's another scripture study that looks at people in United States/other wealthy countries, and asks them how much of their conscious life they'd want to skip if they could. Skipping here means that blinking would reach you to the end of whatever activity you're engaging with. For example, perhaps I hate this podcast so much that I would rather be unconscious than be talking to you. In which case, I'd have the option of skipping, and it would be over after 30 minutes.If you look at that, and then also asked people about the trade offs they would be willing to make as a measure of intensity of how much they're enjoying a certain experience, you reach the conclusion that a little over 10% of people regarded their life that day as being surveyed worse than if they'd been unconscious the entire day.Contra Tyler Cowen on what’s most importantDwarkesh Patel 39:18Jumping topics here a little bit, on the 80,000 Hours Podcast, you said that you expect scientists who are explicitly trying to maximize their impact might have an adverse impact because they might be ignoring the foundational research that wouldn't be obvious in this way of thinking, but might be more important.Do you think this could be a general problem with longtermism? If you were trying to find the most important things that are important long-term, you might be missing things that wouldn't be obvious thinking this way?Will MacAskill 39:48Yeah, I think that's a risk. Among the ways that people could argue against my general set of views, I argue that we should be doing fairly specific and targeted things like trying to make AI safe, well-govern the rise of AI, reduce worst-case pandemics that can kill us all, prevent a Third World War, ensure that good values are promoted, and avoid value lock-in. But, some people could argue (and people like Tyler Cowen and Patrick Collison do), that it's very hard to predict the future impact of your actions.It's a mug's game to even try. Instead, you should look at the things that have done loads of good consistently in the past, and try to do the same things. In particular, they might argue that means technological progress or boosting economic growth. I dispute that. It's not something I can give a completely knock-down argument to because we don’t know when we will find out who's right. Maybe in thousand-years time. But one piece of evidence is the success of forecasters in general. This also was true for Tyler Cowen, but people in Effective Altruism were realizing that the Coronavirus pandemic was going to be a big deal for them. At an early stage, they were worrying about pandemics far in advance. There are some things that are actually quite predictable.For example, Moore's Law has held up for over 70 years. The idea that AI systems are gonna get much larger and leading models are going to get more powerful are on trend. Similarly, the idea that we will be soon be able to develop viruses of unprecedented destructive power doesn’t feel too controversial. Even though it’s hard to predict loads of things, there are going to be tons of surprises. There are some things, especially when it comes to fairly long-standing technological trends, that we can make reasonable predictions — at least about the range of possibilities that are on the table.Dwarkesh Patel 42:19It sounds like you're saying that the things we know are important now. But, if something didn't turn out, a thousand years ago, looking back to be very important, it wouldn't be salient to us now?Will MacAskill 42:31What I was saying with me versus Patrick Collison and Tyler Cowen, who is correct? We will only get that information in a thousand-years time because we're talking about impactful strategies for the long-term. We might get suggestive evidence earlier. If me and others engaging in longtermism are making specific, measurable forecasts about what is going to happen with AI, or advances in biotechnology, and then are able to take action such that we are clearly reducing certain risks, that's pretty good evidence in favor of our strategy.Whereas, they're doing all sorts of stuff, but not make firm predictions about what's going to happen, but then things pop out of that that are good for the long-term (say we measure this in ten-years time), that would be good evidence for their view.Dwarkesh Patel 43:38You were saying earlier about the contingency in technology implies that given their worldview, even if you're trying to maximize what in the past is at the most impact, if what's had the most impact in the past is changing values, then economic growth might be the most important thing? Or trying to change the rate of economic growth?Will MacAskill 43:57I really do take the argument seriously of how people have acted in the past, especially for people trying to make a long-lasting impact. What things that they do that made sense and whatnot. So, towards the end of the 19th century, John Stuart Mill and the other early utilitarians had this longtermist wave where they started taking the interests of future generations very seriously. Their main concern was Britain running out of coal, and therefore, future generations would be impoverished. It's pretty striking because they had a very bad understanding of how the economy works. They hadn't predicted that we would be able to transition away from coal with continued innovation.Secondly, they had enormously wrong views about how much coal and fossil fuels there were in the world. So, that particular action didn't make any sense given what we know now. In fact, that particular action of trying to keep coal in the ground, given Britain at the time where we're talking about much lower amounts of coal—so small that the climate change effect is negligible at that level—probably would have been harmful.But, we could look at other things that John Stuart Mill could have done such promoting better values. He campaigned for women's suffrage. He was the first British MP. In fact, even the first politician in the world to promote women's suffrage - that seems to be pretty good. That seems to have stood the test of time. That's one historical data point. But potentially, we can learn a more general lesson there.AI and the centralization of powerDwarkesh Patel 45:36Do you think the ability of your global policymakers to come to a consensus is on net, a good or a bad thing? On the positive, maybe it helps around some dangerous tech from taking off, but on the negative side, prevent human challenge trials that cause some lock-in in the future. On net, what do you think about that trend?Will MacAskill 45:54The question of global integration, you're absolutely right, it's double-sided. One hand, it can help us reduce global catastrophic risks. The fact that the world was able to come come together and ban Chlorofluorocarbons was one of the great events of the last 50 years, allowing the hole in the ozone layer to to repair itself. But on the other hand, if it means we all converge to one monoculture and lose out on diversity, that's potentially bad. We could lose out on the most possible value that way.The solution is doing the good bits and not having the bad bits. For example, in a liberal constitution, you can have a country that is bound in certain ways by its constitution and by certain laws yet still enables a flourishing diversity of moral thought and different ways of life. Similarly, in the world, you can have very strong regulation and treaties that only deal with certain global public goods like mitigation of climate change, prevention of development of the next generation of weapons of mass destruction without having some very strong-arm global government that implements a particular vision of the world. Which way are we going at the moment? It seems to me we've been going in a pretty good and not too worrying direction. But, that could change.Dwarkesh Patel 47:34Yeah, it seems the historical trend is when you have a federated political body that even if constitutionally, the Central Powers constrain over time, they tend to gain more power. You can look at the U.S., you can look at the European Union. But yeah, that seems to be the trend.Will MacAskill 47:52Depending on the culture that's embodied there, it's potentially a worry. It might not be if the culture itself is liberal and promoting of moral diversity and moral change and moral progress. But, that needn't be the case.Dwarkesh Patel 48:06Your theory of moral change implies that after a small group starts advocating for a specific idea, it may take a century or more before that idea reaches common purchase. To the extent that you think this is a very important century (I know you have disagreements about that with with others), does that mean that there isn't enough time for longtermism to gain by changing moral values?Will MacAskill 48:32There are lots of people I know and respect fairly well who think that Artificial General Intelligence will likely lead to singularity-level technological progress and extremely rapid rate of technological progress within the next 10-20 years. If so, you’re right. Value changes are something that pay off slowly over time.I talk about moral change taking centuries historically, but it can be much faster today. The growth of the Effective Altruism movement is something I know well. If that's growing at something like 30% per year, compound returns mean that it's not that long. That's not growth. That's not change that happens on the order of centuries.If you look at other moral movements like gay rights movement, very fast moral change by historical standards. If you're thinking that we've got ten years till the end of history, then don't broadly try and promote better values. But, we should have a very significant probability mass on the idea that we will not hit some historical end of this century. In those worlds, promoting better values could pay off like very well.Dwarkesh Patel 49:59Have you heard of Slime Mold Time Mold Potato Diet?Will MacAskill 50:03I have indeed heard of Slime Mold Time Mold Potato Diet, and I was tempted as a gimmick to try it. As I'm sure you know, potato is close to a superfood, and you could survive indefinitely on butter mashed potatoes if you occasionally supplement with something like lentils and oats.Dwarkesh Patel 50:25Hm, interesting. Question about your career: why are you still a professor? Does it still allow you to the things that you would otherwise have been doing like converting more SBF’s and making moral philosophy arguments for EA? Curious about that.Will MacAskill 50:41It's fairly open to me what I should do, but I do spend significant amounts of time co-founding organizations or being on the board of those organizations I've helped to set up. More recently, working closely with the Future Fund, SBF’s new foundation, and helping them do as much good as possible. That being said, if there's a single best guess for what I want to do longer term, and certainly something that plays to my strengths better, it's developing ideas, trying to get the big picture roughly right, and then communicating them in a way that's understandable and gets more people to get off their seats and start to do a lot of good for the long-term. I’ve had a lot of impact that way. From that perspective, having an Oxford professorship is pretty helpful.The problems with academiaDwarkesh Patel 51:34You mentioned in the book and elsewhere that there's a scarcity of people thinking about big picture questions—How contingent is history? How are people happy generally?—Are these questions that are too hard for other people? Or they don't care enough? What's going on? Why are there so few people talking about this?Will MacAskill 51:54I just think there are many issues that are enormously important but are just not incentivized anywhere in the world. Companies don't incentivize work on them because they’re too big picture. Some of these questions are, “Is the future good, rather than bad? If there was a global civilizational collapse, would we recover? How likely is a long stagnation?” There’s almost no work done on any of these topics. Companies aren't interested too grand in scale.Academia has developed a culture where you don't tackle such problems. Partly, that's because they fall through the cracks of different disciplines. Partly because they seem too grand or too speculative. Academia is much more in the mode of making incremental gains in our understanding. It didn't always used to be that way.If you look back before the institutionalization of academic research, you weren't a real philosopher unless you had some grand unifying theory of ethics, political philosophy, metaphysics, logic, and epistemology. Probably the natural sciences too and economics. I'm not saying that all of academic inquiry should be like that. But should there be some people whose role is to really think about the big picture? Yes.Dwarkesh Patel 53:20Will I be able to send my kids to MacAskill University? What's the status on that project?Will MacAskill 53:25I'm pretty interested in the idea of creating a new university. There is a project that I've been in discussion about with another person who's fairly excited about making it happen. Will it go ahead? Time will tell. I think you can do both research and education far better than it currently exists. It's extremely hard to break in or creating something that's very prestigious because the leading universities are hundreds of years old. But maybe it's possible. I think it would could generate enormous amounts of value if we were able to pull it off.Dwarkesh Patel 54:10Excellent, alright. So the book is What We Owe The Future. I understand pre-orders help a lot, right? It was such an interesting read. How often does somebody write a book about the questions they consider to be the most important even if they're not the most important questions? Big picture thinking, but also looking at very specific questions and issues that come up. Super interesting read.Will MacAskill 54:34Great. Well, thank you so much!Dwarkesh Patel 54:38Anywhere else they can find you? Or any other information they might need to know?Will MacAskill 54:39Yeah, sure. What We Owe The Future is out on August 16 in the US and first of September in the United Kingdom. If you want to follow me on Twitter, I'm @WillMcCaskill. If you want to try and use your time or money to do good, Giving What We Can is an organization that encourages people to take a pledge to give a significant fraction of the income (10% or more) to the charities that do the most good. It has a list of recommended charities. 80,000 Hours—if you want to use your career to do good—is a place to go for advice on what careers have the biggest impact at all. They provide one-on-one coaching too.If you're feeling inspired and want to do good in the world, you care about future people and I want to help make their lives go better, then, as well as reading What We Owe The Future, Giving What We Can, and 80,000 hours are the sources you can go to and get involved.Dwarkesh Patel 55:33Awesome, thanks so much for coming on the podcast! It was a lot of fun.Will MacAskill 54:39Thanks so much, I loved it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkeshpatel.com

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Ep 10: Living with Hidden ADHD: How to Transform Your Life After a Late Diagnosis

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 20, 2022 57:30

Despite being a common diagnosis, many people with ADHD may go most of their lives without ever officially being diagnosed. Although there are a number of challenges that this presents, one of the most frustrating is that the longer ADHD is left untreated, the more difficult it becomes to change our habits. Even so, that doesn't mean it's impossible - and our guest today proves it!For this week's episode, I invited Bob Shea - a renowned children's author who only recently received an ADHD diagnosis at age 52 - to talk about the trials and triumphs he experienced living with hidden ADHD for so long. Although Bob has some legitimate regrets about not getting diagnosed sooner, he's worked hard to address his challenge areas and make meaningful transformations in his habits. As a result, Bob has seen major improvements in both his personal and professional life that he's excited to share with our listeners. He also reveals the tools, systems, and interventions that helped him along the way. His contributions to the podcast reveal an important lesson - it's never too late to get the support we need to become the best version of ourselves. I know you'll enjoy listening to Bob's advice, wit, and humor just as much as I did during our conversation.Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation:ADHD ResourcesOn-Demand Webinar: ADHD Fundamentals - What you need to succeed after diagnosis: This is the link to a webinar Beyond BookSmart held recently. If you register, you'll gain instant access to the webinar. 8 Things You Need to Know About ADHD After a Diagnosis: A blog that summarizes key points from the webinar linked above.ADHD Information for Adults: This website includes information on medication and non-medication approaches to managing ADHD.How To ADHD YouTube Channel: An amazing channel that tries to both normalize and help support the trials and tribulations of living with ADHD. Dr. Tracey Marks - Skills Training for ADHD Playlist: A fantastic psychologist and content creator with invaluable insights on living with ADHD. Other Stuff We DiscussedBob's Planning and Time Management Strategy Here's a pic of Bob's notebook so you can see how he lays out his tasks and week.The Sam Harris Meditation App: This is the meditation app that Bob likes to use every morning.Jetpens.com: Bob's favorite place to shop for pens online. The Pomodoro Technique: 25 Minutes to Increase Productivity: This is the time management approach called the Pomodoro Method that Bob uses. We also use it as coaches!Leuchtturm1917 Notebook: This is the notebook I use for my bullet journal.Time Timer Visual Clock: This is the visual timer that I asked Bob about and then he showed me his which he had on the desk next to him.River Fox BuJo: My daughter's Pinterest account I mentioned in the episodeBob Shea's Instagram and WebsiteContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When my kids were little, we spent hours at our local library and we'd go home with 50 or so books at a time. We especially loved picture books that made us laugh. And one day we discovered an author called Bob Shea, and Bob's books quickly became some of our favorites. Thanks to the internet, we found out that Bob also lived in our home state of Connecticut. We followed him on Instagram and really enjoyed his drawing tutorials and quirky posts. And Bob started inviting other children's authors and illustrators to have a conversation with him on Instagram Live every Friday. And one day he had author and illustrator Charles Santoso on for a chat. And Bob openly and very candidly shared about his experience having ADHD. He talked about the time management strategies that he uses, and how important they are for him. I knew at that very moment that I just had to invite Bob on to be a guest on the podcast. So today, I've got you a very entertaining and very real conversation about how ADHD impacts his life, how medication really helped and the tools and strategies that he uses to find satisfaction in his life. And I'm really thrilled to share Bob's story with you today. Before we jump in, I want to acknowledge that not everyone with ADHD uses medication. And whatever choice people make about medication is theirs and theirs alone. There are alternative options for those who choose not to use it. And for those who do use it, they likely find that it doesn't work well just on its own. As you'll hear Bob say it works well for him because he combines it with other non medication strategies. If you are interested in learning more, check out the show notes for more reading and resources on this topic. Okay, now on to the show. Okay. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. Do you wanna introduce yourself to our listeners? Bob Shea 02:10Sure. My name is Bob Shea. I'm a children's book author and illustrator. And I found out that I had ADHD when I was 52.Hannah Choi 02:24Did you, did you won...have you had you wondered before in your life?Bob Shea 02:30I not in a serious way. It was probably the six months before I was diagnosed that I really started to think that it was more than just character flaws.Hannah Choi 02:51Did something happen? Was there like a some kind of shift in your thinking or something that got you to start with questioning that?Bob Shea 03:00There were two things I did start following some ADHD accounts on Instagram. That was one thing. So that put it on my radar pretty strong. And what would happen was or what happened I remember specifically, someone did a real that had symptoms of ADHD that I had never known would have been things and it was exactly how my brain works like exactly. And it wasn't the traditional. This is what ADHD is why because my the one of the reasons I one of the reasons I didn't think that I had it was because I know people who you know, in five minutes, you're like, Man, this conversation is 20 different subjects. And my my brothers both have it in and in the three of us it presents differently. So that was difficult. I'm not hyperactive, I don't have any of the traditional things. My my thoughts about ADHD were Bart Simpson, bad student acting up can't sit still. I was I did well in school. I wasn't a troublemaker at all. None of those things. So I was like, I don't have any of that stuff. And then there was a day when I was trying to finish a project I was trying to finish a book that I had do. And I couldn't do it like I couldn't pick up my iPad and open up the file and start... like it was due it was like that safety net of, of a looming deadline did not fail to ignite the fire. And I was scrolling on the Instagram instead. Like, compulsively. I was like I can't stop doing this. I'm look I was like I need some kind of stimulation that and the the I was I'm looking forward to doing the book. Like it was not like Yay, I'm gonna do this book and I'm excited finally gonna get to dig in. I've avoided it and I, I made an appointment for the next day with my, with my doctor with a physician's assistant. I went home and told my wife and she was like, Yeah, that's a really good idea.Hannah Choi 05:23She's like, finally the day has come.Bob Shea 05:24She was like, yeah, she was like, Man, she got the worst of it over the years, I'll tell you. So, yeah, so then I went to the, you know, when I went to this appointment, and I almost cancelled it. I was like, you know, just do your work. I'm sure you're fine. She's gonna let I had gone to her one time for Xanax because I had to go on tour. And I didn't want to talk to people that asked for like, I'm like, Look, I just need, I don't take it normally. Like, she has my records. Like, I'm not a drug seeker. But I was like, I'm traveling, I got to talk to people. I need some Xanax. And she was reluctant to give it to me, and like really gave me a hard time about it. And so I was like, she's not going to do anything for this ADHD, she's gonna laugh at me. She's like, come back when you break an arm. That's what I thought it was gonna be when you have when you're bleeding. Give me a call, like not for this. Boo hoo hoo, you can't get your work done. But she was really, really empathetic. And I had I had in the three months prior stop drinking, because it was a pandemic, and I was getting really heavy. Yeah. I was exercising every day. And I was, I had cut sugar out. And I was meditating a lot. I'm a big meditator. And so I went down the litany of what was happening, and that I had that I had and hadn't been doing these things in the last three months. And she said, everything you just said is what I would have told you to do. I would have said, eat better exercise and meditate. She said, if you're doing that stuff, and then she gave me an assessment, and I was laughing, because it was like, they were watching me during my day. I was like, Yes. Like, that's what I do every time. Yeah, they're like, do you like not? Do you get really close to the end of a project and not finish? I'm like, there's something new to do here. Like, right? I'm like, Yeah, you know, like everybody does that like, no, not everybody. And she put me on Adderall right away. And it was flipped, like flipping a switch. It was great. It's wonderful. I know it doesn't work for everyone. And everyone has their own way of treating it. But for me, my wife was like, thank God.Hannah Choi 07:48That's awesome. Yeah, that's so great. It's so great that you that you didn't let the part of you that wanted to not go that that part didn't get its chance. And you just went anyway and talked with her. Yeah. Well, I mean, I actually know that a lot of people are afraid to find out because they don't want to find out that that, that they have X, Y or Z. And but I'm sure it has been your experience. Once you find out it actually can really open up a lot of doors and opportunities and possibilities and totally different way of thinking about yourself.Bob Shea 08:23Just Yeah, I saw my, the past 50 years of my life and an entirely different light. And I was like, Man, why did anybody put up with that guy? He was the worst. I was, I was so glad I actually was birth because I was like, man, like,my life would have been so much different. Had I known that I could have been fixed. But you know, and then the other thing is like, both of my brothers have it. They don't want to do anything about it. Like they like it. And I'm like, really? I'm like I would I can't get rid of it fast enough. I'm like this is I don't I don't spin this into a positive thing at all. For me personally, I'm like, I have I could get I could have been high. Who knows what my life would be like, if I didn't have it? It's not it's not some secret power that I have.Hannah Choi 09:18Right? Right. But like we were talking before we started recording, don't you feel like it has given you some of the creativity that you've needed to to create the do the stuff that you've done, create the books that you've done andBob Shea 09:34yeah, I'm, I'm hesitant to give that so much credit because, but I'll tell you I think that that's true. I think that it allowed me to say, see to make connections I wouldn't have made otherwise when I was coming up with things and what it did was it gave me a unique voice creatively, my sense of humor is very unique to me, for good or for bad. I'm not saying that it's better or worse than anyone. But I'm saying when I write jokes or make a joke, it's comes out of left field. And it's not, Oh, I see what he's doing when he's doing this. It's very strange, for better or worse, but I'll tell you all the things that it didn't wear me all the things that it did for me, I would trade it to be have had a normal life, because I think it was a million times a detriment than it was, then then whatever it gave me.Hannah Choi 10:39Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah,Bob Shea 10:41If I was sitting right now in my office up in Hartford, Connecticut, as executive of insurance company, in the HR department being like, you know, we have a lot of events coming up. And we have to do these things in a nice, neat desk. I'd love nothing more.Hannah Choi 11:00Well, I have to say that I'm really glad that you did not discover your ADHD until you were 52. And I think that there are lots and lots of children in the world that are really glad you didn't. And lots of parents.Bob Shea 11:12Well, I appreciate you saying that. But you know,Hannah Choi 11:15So if you look at your life, since you were diagnosed, since you started, like, you know, taking Adderall and just being okay, I have a diagnosis. This is this is why do you see Have you seen the change? Could you compare the like before and after?Bob Shea 11:33It's night and day, I mean, that there's there's work things like like right now, I'm as busy as I've ever been in my career. Right now, for the last two months, and probably going into the next couple of weeks, I have so much to do. And it's fine. Like, it's not, I'll have to work this evening, I'll have to get up early in work. But it's fine. I can. I can see it for what it is. I it's not overwhelming things. I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed all the time. And that affected my relationship with my family. Because nobody can talk to me. Because you have so much going on in your head. That is all equally important. That was the thing. Everything you had to do was just as important as the other next thing, which actually wasn't as important. So when my wife would come in the room and go, Hey, what should we have for dinner? I'd be like, how can you come in here and add another thing to this pile that's in my head, right? And now I'm just I'm so much more pleasant to be around. I was irritable all the time. I was I thought I thought it was over. I thought I thought I was going to I thought we were going to split up because it may like we didn't talk about it. But in my head. I was like head in my head. I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. But I can't be around people.Hannah Choi 13:04Do you think that it was it's mostly that medicine that has changed things for you?Bob Shea 13:11Yes, you know, yeah, because, but that but there's I have to explain that a little bit. I do think that that's the case because I wanted to change. I didn't want to be like that. I knew that I was I knew that I was a jerk. And I knew that I was impatient, and that I couldn't she on the weekends. She'd be honest. She's like, you know, when you're home on the weekend, all you want to do is be at work. I know that you're I know that you're not happy. I couldn't, I couldn't relax. I couldn't go just do something. And it was because I thought I had failed the previous week, getting things done. And so I was trying to always try to catch up. I was always trying to catch up. The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners. So always had calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this? And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill. I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do. Because you're so bad at it. Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 14:32So what's what kind of systems and strategies do work for you?Bob Shea 14:36It's sort of a it's sort of a mix of a lot of different systems that I had found. But But basically, it's capturing all the information in your head. So I I just did it this morning because it's Monday. I usually do it on Sundays. I write down everything I have to do that week like and it's all in a big pile. So it can be work on this illustration. And the next thing could be make an appointment for a haircut. Like it's not there's no over here you put work and over here you put it it's it's a, it's a messy list on the page next to that I put big blocks because I have to see things and I can't do this on the computer, I have to write it down with my hands, or else. It all looks the same on the computer. It's just like typed words. It could be anything. Yep. And now, because a draw, we're like writing a list, you can draw a little picture of something. Oh, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So then I, so then I do the days of the week next to that, just horizontal bars of Monday through Friday. And then I drop in roughly, where what I'm going to do on what day really rough like not like you at three o'clock are going to do this. Yes. Then when the day comes...this all sounds so complicated. And it's not. Then on the day I draw a box for every half hour of the day, I make a list, I make a list, I'm going to I'm like, I'm going to work on this. And I'm going to work on this and I make a box for every half hour of the day and I write in the box, what I'm going to work on at what time and it's it is very flexible. If I don't, I'm okay with that. But I have to just know that I have a plan. I will not make this punitive because I will be mad at it. So it's to help me it is not to punish me ever. And one of the things that I did it first, or one of the things that helped the time while blindness was so bad because I'd be like I have a book to I'll take me two days, I don't know, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I had no concept. So what, so what I do is I write what I plan to do in that in those blocks time. Then when they pass, I go, and I don't do it immediately. Like at the end of the day, I'll say, Boy, I thought that thing was going to take me an hour and a half took me three hours. That's awesome. So I'm training myself to know what things really take like, oh, going to the post office, that's probably negative 20 minutes. Like, really, you gotta get an envelope, gotta find the right size envelope, you got to pick up the address the person gave you you got to seal it, you got to walk down, there's probably going to be aligned, you know, you're gonna get a coffee after because you did an errand and you need a treat. And then you know, by the time you get back, like how long did that trip to the post office, it takes an hour. And then you have to be like, alright, you have to go to the post office today that costs an hour. Like and then you know, because then you're like, then you're not, you overestimate what you can get done. And then at the end of the day, you feel terrible. You're like, you beat yourself up and you're like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, Yeah, you know?Hannah Choi 17:48Yeah, time blindness is a really big. It can, it can really impact so many aspects of your life like, like actually just running out of time. But then also the your opinion that you have it yourself. Yeah, if you constantly are not estimating the time correctly, then you're just gonna feel like you can't get anything done.Bob Shea 18:12Yeah, yeah. And as a result as a result of doing that. And the medication I don't take on as much. Yeah, ever. Because now when I see so if I'm sitting here, and I go online, or whatever, and I go, Hey, look at little felted animals, looks fun. I could get some felt. And I'm gonna make little, like penguins and foxes. It'll be adorable. I'm a children's book author. I should be doing this whimsical stuff all day. And then you go and you look that stuff up. And you buy felts and you got felting needles and stuff. And then you're like, how am I going to do this? And then the reality hits.Hannah Choi 18:55It's just so funny because my other my other job is I, I teach fiber arts classes with a friend of mine and that's like exactly what we do!Bob Shea 19:07Right? But it looks really fun. I have the needles here. I in my closet, I have the needles. But now I see that and I go Yeah, that'd be fun if you have time because and the only reason I say this because I'm like, Well, what are you going to do the other 20 things I taught myself that. Agreeing to do something means you're saying you're not going to do something else. Right? And I'm talking to the guitar in my corner. Okay?Hannah Choi 19:37Just this morning, I was talking to a client and he, he is an adult who was also recently diagnosed with ADHD. And he was talking about how, like for work he's doing really great like staying on to on on track and not taking on too much. You know, and checking like, Is this realistic? Like if my you know, am I is it realistic to take on another client or whatever. And then and then we were talking about how you also have to kind of do that in your, you know, in the in the fun things. Like you, you, you might want to make the felted animals and play the guitar and you know, be really good at all these things. But if you would you ask you have to ask yourself the same thing you ask yourself with your work, like, is it realistic to take on all of these things? If you if you take on too much, you can't do it all and then you just beat yourself up?Bob Shea 20:29Yeah, that's the thing. I could enjoy none of the things. Yeah. And all it was was another source of tension with my wife, because it's like, my half done projects were all over the place. And she was like, can you just throw this out? Now just bring it to Goodwill, or give it to somebody throw it away? And she was right. But I mean, I was like, I was like, I'm gonna make that it's gonna be great. And that's the other thing too with ADHD, you can't be bad at things. Like if I played guitar, I was like, I'm gonna be really good at it. So I didn't say that with guitar, but with most most things. I'm like, I don't want to just, I don't want to do this half measure. I want to be good at it. It's like, Well, yeah. And again, with the paying attention to how long things take. I'm like, I can't do anything else.Hannah Choi 21:15Yeah, right.Bob Shea 21:16I'm full! Like even with work, I'm like, when are you gonna do all these amazing?Hannah Choi 21:21There's only so many hours in a day. Yeah. And you have to sleep and you have to eat and you have to have some downtime.Bob Shea 21:27Yeah, I belong to a Makerspace in New Haven. And it's good and it's bad, because it's great because I can go there for the day. And I'm like, I'm just doing this and I enjoy it. And I I said to my... I stopped putting up requirements on myself. I'm like, when I go in, you're gonna fail at all the things and not walk out with a wooden, whatever you were making. You're going to walk out with your materials all ruin that you paid for. And just and but I'm like, That's the day that's fine. And the other thing, the other other reason it's bad is because they keep getting new stuff, which Oh, wow, you guys gotta chill. So I could do pottery? Oh, my gosh, I'm looking at slip casting. And what do I need? What do I need to buy for this? Man, I'm like that. So now I'm like, ignore that, don't learn how to use the tablesawHannah Choi 22:23You're getting a lot of practice of saying no.Bob Shea 22:25I am! I'm just ignoring stuff. I'm like, I let me tell you, I hate Pre-Adderall Guy so much, that I'm saying no out of spite. I'm like, you don't deserve to make pottery. Help bring another thing into the house. You. I see you back there. You know, because it's still I'm still the same thing. Like my brain still is seeking those that stimulation to like, it's still dopamine, when I'm like, a new thing to learn. There's a lot of dopamine in that goldmine of dopamine. So passing that up as Adderall makes you say, you've got enough to get by. You don't need to go look for other places, even social media. I'm on social media so much less. I used to be on Twitter all the time.Hannah Choi 23:17So going back to the strategies that you use, how did you develop those? How'd you come up with those?Bob Shea 23:22Even before the Adderall, I was obsessed with time management. Always, always, always, always, unsuccessfully. I remember in the 90s, A long time ago, I went and did a Franklin Planner thing. And I think I kept a Franklin Planner for a while, like for a year, probably about a year and then I had to refill it. And I'm like, fellas, I'm gonna have to do that anymore. But I always remember the sort of the principles and stuff. And I remember now thinking back, like it's not ADHD friendly. Like they're very, it's very, like, it's for people who already have their act together. And it's just a way to clean up their act.Hannah Choi 24:08Those linear thinkersBob Shea 24:09It's so I always thought it's always like, something wrong with me. I thought I always thought it was like a character failing that I had, I was like, Well, you know, I was like, You know what, I always hated sports. When I was growing up, I probably just don't have discipline. And that's a now that's why they always wanted you to do that, so that you could do a boring task that you didn't want to do. And then, so I had an even I was even going back to the makerspace I was designing all these electronics, things that were all about how to remind me to do things. Every one thing, I had a thing where I'm still making this one, and that's not me lying, it's my first project. I was gonna have more successful authors than may record a message to me like, "Hey, how's that book coming you were telling me about?" Yeah, and then randomly during the day, it would announce that whatever I was doing was like, Oh, I was looking at felted animals. Back to work, yeah. I had I have it all sketched out, like, how it works. And the components I need, but everything I did everything I was like, seriously, I was like, I'm going to film, because I didn't know how the day worked. I'm going to film this was an idea of flowers, drying and decaying and falling off the thing. And then I'm going to play it fast during the day over eight hours, so that when I looked up, I go, Oh, the things are starting to fall. That means I have this much time. I was trying to, I was trying to find ways to look at time visually that I'd understand and not like just a clock, which I'm like, that's just the number I don't know. Because you come in in the beginning of the day, and you're like, I have all day. You know, and you're like, well, and then you're like, Well, I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go take a walk. And then I'm like, Jesus running out real quick.Hannah Choi 26:06Yeah, like half a day now. Have you heard of the Time timers were like shows a red...like, It's like, it looks like a clock. And yeah. That right there. Do you use it?Bob Shea 26:19Sorry about that noise. That's part of my thing with with the, with the blocks that I draw out the half hour blocks, 25 minutes, because it's the Pomodoro Technique, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Are you if that is the I'll tell you something. The timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm, I'm diligent about using the timers. That's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today. It's like it's not a bad day, it still works falls apart a lot easier. Those timers, because it gives you a little deadline. Yep. And you look at that thing. And you're right, like the visual thing for me was huge. And so for that deadline, I go, I tell myself, you can't look at your phone, because you're working. And so then that way I go, Well, there's only 15 minutes, I can not look at my phone for 15 minutes. But if I don't have the time, or it's every three minutes up, pick it up. Yeah, I'm better about it now, but that's how it works. I also blocked Instagram on everything but my laptop so that when I sit down, it's intentional. Like I'm gonna go on Instagram now. Look at messages I do. scroll a little bit. It's boring on your laptop. You're not on the sofa looking at TV and doing it. So I'm out faster. I'm in and out faster. And and then on my devices for work. Like my iPad. No. No social media. Still the news? I still look at the news all the time. But no social media. Yeah. Pinterest is great. I like Pinterest. Yes.Hannah Choi 27:57It is great. My daughter is like slowly racking up a whole bunch of followers. She does bullet journaling. Yeah, she does. She does bullet journal. She has this bullet journal. She's 13 years old. And she's really starting everyday. She's like, Oh, I have like 20 more followers. She's up to 350! Yeah, it's so cool. But she like shares like her that art the art that she did it for the week and how she laid it out. AndBob Shea 28:24Does she get this she get... she's been to like JetPens, right? And she gets all this stuff fromHannah Choi 28:29I don't know what JetPens is. But she's got all the pens. Bob Shea 28:32Sorry, I told you because oh, there's a whole other world of pens you don't know aboutHannah Choi 28:38JetPens, okay, I gotta write that down. Bob Shea 28:39So good. I love I love that stuff. And like pencil cases and like pencil sharpeners that look like pandas. Hannah Choi 28:48And you guys could talk for hours. She's totally into it. Bob Shea 28:52So So I give her a lot of credit, because I couldn't keep up with a bullet journal. My thing is like black ink and then read for like, what I really did, because I'm like, I had to pare it down to a simpler.Hannah Choi 29:04Yeah. Well, I keep a bullet journal too. But mine is also like, super. It's just like, there's nothing fancyBob Shea 29:11Yeah, that's what mine looks like. Yeah. And you have the same you have that kind to Yeah. Yeah, my wife made minus 10 or something.Hannah Choi 29:20Yeah, yeah. IBob Shea 29:20don't know how you say it. I use those a lot for other things. But I don't but I use a different I just use a grid. Very simple one because I go through so many of them.Hannah Choi 29:30Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping systems like that requires some practice. It requires quite a bit of perseverance and quite a bit of, you know, discipline. What motivates you to stick with it?Bob Shea 29:49This I think what, what motivates me to stick with it is that, like I said before, it's not punitive. It's not it's not it's here to help me not make me feel bad. So as I use it things that don't work for me, it was a little more not complicated. There were more, there was more to it when I first started doing it, anything that didn't sort of serve me I got rid of. So now it's like, it's a way to collect my thoughts. It's not a way to to be a taskmaster that you have to do these things. At the end of the day, a lot of times, I'll have gotten made a lot of progress on things, but maybe not even the things I thought I was going to do. And then I'm like, that's still a good day, I made a lot of progress. And I'm proud of what I did. Like, I'm glad that I moved the needle on this project. The other project can wait a day, because I have long deadlines. You know, like, I don't usually I think, like when I was doing graphic design, like maybe I didn't notice it much because it was like That thing's due in two days, like and it would be like in the next week, something else would be due now. It's like months at a time. That's bad for people like me.Hannah Choi 31:01Long term planning is like a whole different set of skills thatBob Shea 31:04I'm still working on that that is like, time makes no sense to me. Three months, like, that's never gonna happen. It's never gonna be here.Hannah Choi 31:14Have you ever watched inside the mind of a master procrastinator with Tim Urban? He, it's a TED Talk that...Bob Shea 31:22Yes, I think so! He has he does his thesis in the last day. That was hilarious. Yeah. So good. Before I knew I had ADHD. Yeah, it's hilarious!Hannah Choi 31:35it's a great, that's such a great example of exactly what you just.Bob Shea 31:41Yeah, yeah. It's like, and it's, I'm not. I so I just turned in a book. A couple of, I'm in the revision process of it now. And I was proud of myself. Because it was only two weeks late, instead of three months, like yeah, I was real- And I'm sure they are, but it was a new art director and I don't think that they were as proud of me as I am.Hannah Choi 32:05You're like, you don't know what this means.Bob Shea 32:08Like, I'm like, checking outside to see if the UPS guys bring in like, you know, a Harry and David box gift basket. Two weeks late, two weeks late, not three months. Like, oh, look, guess who's almost like a normal person?Hannah Choi 32:26That's so great.Bob Shea 32:27I have friends who are like, Yeah, this isn't due till September. So I finished it early, so I could get out some other things. I'm like, What are you talking about? I've never, ever done that. Ever. That's the thing. I had a friend who told me he did that. And then I was telling him about the ADHD. And he's like, maybe I have ADHD. I said, let's take a step back. Yeah. Remember how you told me? You just finished something up? That's not due for three months? No, no, no, no. I'm not a medical professional, but no.Hannah Choi 33:01So funny. What do you think would happen if you turned something in on time?Bob Shea 33:06I might have no, I don't know. I have no idea what that's like, I think that I'm gonna tell you though, I see the I see the benefit of doing that. This sounds so dumb. This sounds like such a, Are you new to being in the world? Like, if I so working alone and making up my own projects and things it's like, it's it's so much more helpful to me to have a system and try to get in on time. Because that frees up time for other things. Not felted animals, other projects that could maybe make money, right? Like there's, I mean, it's a balance with the kids books, because I can't, I can't have people be like, Man, he's cranking these things out once again. You right, you know what I mean? Like, Hannah Choi 33:57Can't be too productive! Bob Shea 33:58Good, right, like, have a side hustle. I can drive for Uber in those two weeks. That's what I could have been doing.Hannah Choi 34:08No, no, Bob. Bob Shea 34:10I don't think that's not a good idea. Hannah Choi 34:11You obviously did something different to get your three week overdue and a three month overdueness down to two week, two weeks overdue. What do you do different?Bob Shea 34:20That was that that's the last piece that I'm working on now. What is the long term plan? I can't I don't understand how time works. I don't get that. You know, I don't get that. Laters not does not a thing. Laters Not a thing. And it's not better than now. Like the way I behave now? Yeah, I'm gonna behave like that tomorrow. Like, I'm like, I can be like, Oh, tomorrow when I wake up, I'm gonna be all put together. You know what I mean? So now this machine that I've made that can kind of not a very fast moving thing. It's it's constantly pressing forward, which is good and not speedy. But so it's only recently that I've acknowledged that the future is going to happen, whether I like it or not. So I start to use. So now I am using a calendar. On my computer, which I don't like to do, I should actually get a physical one. And I'm writing in dates things are due so that I can see them approach. Yeah, that's good. I know that I have something due on August 1. And I'm already obsessed about it not obsessed. But I'm already like, if you don't get started on July 1, you're never going to get that done. I know that that's and I'm like, I can't. Last minute panic. It gets old after 50 years. Yeah.Hannah Choi 35:47Takes the wear and tear on your body. Yeah. What if instead of... what if you put the deadline- So you have the deadline that it's due on August 1? What if on the calendar on July 1, you wrote, like, start the thing?Bob Shea 36:04Yeah, that's, that's what I should do. And I did. I did that. The one that was two weeks late, I put in every day like you are supposed to be working on this thing. I am the worst employee. I just, I That stuff's easy. If I'm like, if it's due in 30 days, I'm like, Well, I can go to MakeHaven today. You know what I mean? Because it's 30, I still got 29 days - work a little harder.Hannah Choi 36:36And I suppose thinking, well, if I just do it all now and I get it done five days before the due date, then I could spend five full days in a row at MakeHaven.Bob Shea 36:46that sounds like a wonderful world that I do. You know, I'll tell you, I have that conversation with myself in a very convincing manner. executing that plan, to a degree where all the steps are taken care of in a in a timely way. And let me tell you something, too. It's not me. It's not me blowing it off. It's, it takes longer than I guess. So even with this thing, even. And then things happen that you don't anticipate. You know, that's the other thingHannah Choi 37:19Yeah. And the unpredictable variables of life,Bob Shea 37:22That and that's even going back to the boxes, and it applies to the month to going back to the boxes. If you write down what really happens. You can look back and go, oh, there's all these things that I didn't know in the morning were going to happen that I had to deal with. And so you don't feel bad. At the end of the day. You're like, well, it wasn't my fault. I wasn't I wasn't like googling what movie was Nicolas Cage in in the 90s was the thing and they switched faces. You know what I mean? You're like, you don't you don't stop to do that. As long as I'm like working and not like, just looking at, you know, woodworking videos. What I like to do - keep that to my personal time.Hannah Choi 38:05Yeah, having some flexibility, like, like, flexibility both in what we do during the day and also like recognizing that, that we cannot be rigid all the time. We cannot. As much as we want to stick to whatever we have planned for that day, it just doesn't. Yeah, definitely gonna happen.Bob Shea 38:25Yeah, it's, it's, it's about being honest with yourself about how you work, and then saying, Look, you work this way. Here's what'll work with that without you beating yourself up because I because I couldn't figure it out. Because I was like, I did all this stuff in my career to get to the point where I'm have autonomy. I can work by myself. I come up with my own projects. Great, great, great. And I'm like, and then you ruin it because you're on stupid Twitter. Why would you do that? You have you? Here's everything that you wanted. And you undermine yourself. It's awful. It wasHannah Choi 39:10How much do you think that had to do with fear? The fear that you weren't going to be do it do it right or fear that it was going to be uncomfortable while you were doing whatever it was.Bob Shea 39:22That's a big part of it because I would - the books - I can't look at books that I did already. From the past. Somebody's using an angle grinder outside. So I can't look at Yeah, so good. It's like, I hope I hope they're making a playground. Something good.Hannah Choi 39:45I never found out what my neighbors were doing.Bob Shea 39:48Right. Hold on. Let me look real quick. Oh, soft serve ice cream. It's gonna be good. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:55Wait! That's another distraction. Now, I think they're building a brand location of the makerspaceBob Shea 40:02Oh, that's good. Right there. Right? They are. It's they're putting in a table saw. More noise, Great. Yeah, you know, you get so excited for these projects. And in your head, it's perfect. It's the best thing you've ever done. And then you can then you put it down on paper, and there it is going through the filter of your abilities.Hannah Choi 40:25And your own self criticism, I'm sureBob Shea 40:27I can't I was saying before, before they were making the ice cream stand outside, but I can't look at my old books. I can't open them up. People are like, Oh, what was that thing? And I'm like, I'm not going I'm not opening that again. All you see is the things you did wrong. And and in my case, all I see is Yeah, you did that at the last minute, didn't you? Yeah, you're a champ. You're a prince. Look at that, aren't you Like, aren't you professional?Hannah Choi 40:53I'm so curious. I want I kind of want to follow up with you in a couple of years and see, like, if you, like see how your thought processes about your own work have changed? Yeah, I'd be interesting to see that.Bob Shea 41:07I think that I think that I'm managing expectations about that. And as long as I can be comfortable with myself, I'm fine. Like I said, like the overwhelm went away. So I'm not always like, yeah, I sort of can just accept things the way they are and be like, yeah, that's okay. And I'll tell you, that is so huge. Like, it's so huge.Hannah Choi 41:35Yeah. So I'm, I'm doing an episode on procrastination. So would you say you are a procrastinator?Bob Shea 41:46Yep. Yeah, more. So before the Adderall for sure. Yeah, yeah, I still do it. And now when I do it, I can stop if I want to. But also, if I'm doing it, and I know that I'm doing it, I'm like, give yourself a break. You're okay. It's not that big a deal. Because what the other thing is about understanding how you work. So I write this grid during the day, the last couple of hours, like probably from from four to four to six. You're not getting anything done. Like you're not, you get it you get an ice cube of creativity every day, you get like, here's this, you can you have this for like an hour and a half, and then you're not gonna get anything good. Stop. So I know from four to six, I'm like, Alright, clean up your office, which is still a mess from ADHD, I'm still working on that. Clean your office reply to emails, low cognitive load things. Yeah. Because that's the time when I'll be like, looking at Instagram or something. Because I'm, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out of stuff, you know.Hannah Choi 42:53So something that I try to work a lot with my clients on is is exactly that, like noticing, diminishing returns, noticing when your effort is not, is not being effective anymore. And so that's so great that you, you know that about yourself, and you know, what the things that you can do, instead of just messing around, like, you know, you can still do some things, which is going to make you feel better about yourself by the end of the day, like, oh, like, like all these other things that I did? Yeah, I may not have like, written more or drawn more, but I did make my space more usable,Bob Shea 43:30Which is another goal. Like it's one of the things so it's like, yeah, I can I can move piles around for the next hour from one spot to the next. Just which is another thing I can't I bet it. I can't see. I'm clutter-blind as well. Anyway, but uh, but yeah, that's, that's the thing is to just be easy. Go easy on yourself. And if you if you know that you're diligently trying don't like I'm like, yeah, they know. It's all working out. Okay, it's all from everything's for my benefit. So I don't mind it so much.Hannah Choi 44:04Yeah, that's great. And being able to do that self reflection is so important. And, and, and recognizing, like, what your strengths are and what's challenging, and how you can use both of those. Bob Shea 44:17Yeah, a lot of that, too. I mentioned before I'm a big meditator meditation has allowed me to understand my thoughts as they're happening, and to recognize thought patterns and be like, alright, I see what it is you're doing now. And you take your level you're a little distanced from you don't become your thoughts. You're able to like observe them and go, alright, you you don't want to do this. Why not? Yeah. And then think about what else can I do instead? And that lets me shift and then that way I'm not hooked on the well you back off other thought because I'm getting some dopamine from this Instagram and then I'm gonna ride this for a while.Hannah Choi 45:05So how do you? How did you get into meditation? And how do you keep yourself? How do you? How do you keep up with the practice?Bob Shea 45:13I, you know, my, my mother in the 70s was into back when it was a super popular thing. She was into Tm. It's a transcendental meditation because it was like on the Merv Griffin Show. You know,Hannah Choi 45:26I remember people talking about that when I was little.Bob Shea 45:28Yeah, you know, I was like, That guy was on TV all the time. It was super like it was a pop culture thing. And then she would do it, she went to some meditation thing, tried to get us boys to do it, we laughed, and we're like, I'm not doing this. We tried once. You can't make people meditate, you cannot make them do it. But I always remembered that she did you know. And so I think when I was like, in my 20s, I started doing it again, late, my late 20s, I did it. And I did it in a different way. I didn't do TM, but I would just do it with the real. And again, I had to do the ADHD, I'm like, You need to build this muscle of focus. And so I did it that way for a while. And it was fine. It was fine. It was good. I didn't really know what I was getting out of it. And then I started to use the Sam Harris app a couple of years ago. And that's really the thing where he walks you through why you're doing it and how to do it and all this stuff. And that and he's like, he comes at it from a point of view of not like it's a spiritual thing. It's other goes my my cuckoo clock to did let me know that an hour has passed in my head. So I have an understanding of time. I've 10 clocks all around the thing. I'm obsessed with clocks now. It's a good one. Yeah, and I'll let the bird keep talking for a second. There it goes. And that the keeping up on the practice is, all of these things work in tandem, I have to, I can tell when I'm eating poorly, if I'm not exercising, if I'm not doing meditation. Life's worse. Like even with the medication life's worse. So if I try to try to ride my bike in every day, I usually when I you know, and this is more of a habit forming than anything else. Usually what I'll do is when I get in right away, I'll sit and meditate. When I walk in the door, put my stuff down, sit on the cushion. There's on the app, it's a meditation everyday 20 minutes do it and it's over. Like when I wake up when I wake up. I try to write for a while. Then I'll exercise that I might go for a run. I'm in, meditate, set, it all sounds wonderful. It sounds like you have this wonderful thing. It's all it's all tension. It's all motivated by fear. So that's the foundation is fear. So but it all helps me stay focused a little bit.Hannah Choi 47:54Yeah, right. It's a fear of not feeling good, right? I feel a fear of failing, you know, those strategies are to help you be successful.Bob Shea 48:02I can feel better. I feel better. If I get sleep. I have to get enough sleep. And then I just I feel so much better. I'm so much more able to deal with things.Hannah Choi 48:13Yeah, I I really feel that with exercise. Like for me, I really need to exercise if I don't exercise then I tend to really beat myself up a lot. And when I exercise I'm much gentler myself. And I actually just ran a half marathon yesterday I ran the Fairfield half marathon. Yeah. It wasn't my first half marathon but was my first time during the Fairfield one. It was really fun. Two more questions for you. They're not long. What are you excited about?Bob Shea 48:43What am I excited about? Me personally? In the world? Because nothingHannah Choi 48:52Okay, personally? Yeah, I know the world is awful, right? PersonallyBob Shea 48:59I'm excited about my son's graduating high school, he's gonna go to college in the fall. I'm pretty excited about that. I'm, I'm doing I'm - because I do one thing at a time now. I'm doing some I have some good projects at the makerspace that I'm excited about. I'm excited, just even about running and riding my bike. I'm so excited that it's nice outside. It's all very simple things that I do. And I write down gratitude stuff at the end of the day. And it's always the same thing. It's always like my wife, something delicious, and out and my bicycle.Hannah Choi 49:35I have been keeping a gratitude journal for - I'm in my fifth year now. It has, I have to say like I think that has made one of the biggest impacts on my life. Bob Shea 49:39For real? Hannah Choi 49:39Oh, yeah. It's amazing Bob Shea 49:42Do you do it in the evening or in the morning to start your day and set your intention kind of thing.Hannah Choi 49:54Yeah, that's a great question. I do it in the evening and I also sometimes end up doing it in the morning for the previous day, because I forgot to do it. But what I have found, it has helped me so much with negative thinking. And, and I find myself throughout the day going, Oh, that's something I can write about. I automatically think that way now. And it also at the end of if I have like a particularly hard day, it forces me to look back on it in and look for the even if I can be grateful for the challenge of that hard day. I made it through or, or whatever, like my kids made me happy or, you know, something.Bob Shea 50:43This day is over. I'm grateful. Yeah.Hannah Choi 50:47During the pandemic, I often just wrote, "I'm just glad this day is over". Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a huge thing for me. So I'm glad you're doing it too. Yeah.Bob Shea 50:58That's good. I'll start to - I'm not mindful of things during the day. To to jot down that's a great idea. That's good. That brings it into the whole day.Hannah Choi 51:08Yeah, yeah, it's been really nice. And it's cool too, because the one that I use as a line a day journal, so it's actually got five years on each day. So I can look back on that, that day from the previous and so I'm in my fifth year now. So I can look back on on all of them before and it's really interesting to see that I do tend to be thankful for a lot of the same stuff. And so that makes me feel really good. Like, Oh, those are those are things that I should be doing. Like I do kickboxing, and I'm very often thankful for kickboxing. And, sadly, the place where we do it at is closing. But umBob Shea 51:43Oh, really? Hannah Choi 51:44Yeah. It's a real bummer. But it's it is it's really nice to look back on that. And just, it's like evidence. I just I love looking for evidence. And there's a lot of evidence in that book.Bob Shea 51:56Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 51:59All right, one more question. How do people find you even though you're not too much on social media?Bob Shea 52:05On social media, on Instagram, I'm Bob Shea books. And then I do have Bobshea.com. That's my books website. But those are really the two main places the main thing is is Instagram, @BobsheabooksHannah Choi 52:22and on your local children's library bookshelves.Bob Shea 52:25Oh, yeah, exactly. Wherever, from your local independent bookseller. Yeah, just go in and go in and demand my books. And if they don't carry them there, they usually have a display in the center of the store, like new releases or whatever. If they don't have it, just flip that over. Flip it over, run out.Hannah Choi 52:45Well, that's that's how we found you, my kids. When my kids were little, we can't remember how we maybe they had one of your books up on like the, like the top, they put like one of the books up on the top?Bob Shea 52:56And oh, okay. Yeah, good I hope so.Hannah Choi 52:58So every time we found out you had a new book, we are super excited. So thank you for being a part of my children's childhood.Bob Shea 53:04Oh, sure. Thank you.Hannah Choi 53:08All right. Well, thanks again, Bob. This is great. It's really interesting to hear different people's perspectives. And and I'm so glad that you found strategies that are working for you. And I wish you luck on figuring out long term strategy planning, I think that I was thinking about it, like, just the fact that you're very good at doing your daily stuff is probably why you ended up with only being two weeks late and not three months, like, Yeah, I think that daily practice, probably just made you more aware of time and just made you more productive at, you know, the only thing I was, I was wondering, do you work backwards? Like, do you ever do start at the finish? And then figure out like, Okay, well, I know that they want it, like this amount of time ahead of time. And then and then okay, that means it takes me usually takes me about five days to do whatever and then schedule that there. And then it's like, all of that, all of that time blindness that you're conquering, can be so useful, right? Because, you know, you know how long things take now. So then it makes it easier when you're working backwards to budget in time. So yes, yeah, I think take now,Bob Shea 54:25I would I, I know I should. I should do it that way. In fact, I used to use Gantt charts, you know, again, you know those things. So again, a Gantt chart. I, this is my pre ADHD like, I was so obsessed with them. Like I gotta come up with a way that I can do this. Basically, it's a timeline, and then you hang like a string that moves along with for every day. But on that chart, you have the different things that you're different tasks that have to get done, so you can see where you are and whatever tasks and then So But what ends up happening is you just keep moving the task, like the Gantt chart is, so that is a quick visual, like, if you have five things going on where you are and all those five things.Hannah Choi 55:10Yeah, that's cool.Bob Shea 55:12Yeah, no, yeah.Hannah Choi 55:14I recommend looking at how long things take you and trying to, trying to figure out and adding in buffer time and adding in time for all those variables that we can't predict.Bob Shea 55:28I do. I try to add 50% more than my guess. And I'm getting better at it, but not still can't do like I'm never spot on.Hannah Choi 55:40Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear?Bob Shea 55:43I did. I did. That's where I got the sit down and meditate as soon as you come in.Hannah Choi 55:47Yeah. Habits stacking. Yeah, I was meant to. I meant to mention that earlier when you were talking about that. But I like his idea of just 1% better. It obviously adds up over time, like you have you have proof. You have proof that a little bit better does add up over time.Bob Shea 56:05Yeah. And then the other the other thing I do in the book with the boxes, the next day, I look at how I did the day before. And I go Yeah, you know, you kind of were messing around too much at this time. And you know, you went for that walk was longer than you thought. So then that day, I can be like, Yeah, that's what I say. I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday.Hannah Choi 56:27Yeah, that's so great. Oh, you're like a dream client. Oh my gosh.Bob Shea 56:31I'm too introspective. Hannah Choi 56:34Nah. No such thing. Well, thanks so much, Bob. This has been great.Bob Shea 56:39Thank you. That was fun.Hannah Choi 56:43And that's our show for today. I really hope that you had a chuckle and learn something useful from Bob. Or maybe you could just really relate to his story. More and more adults are being diagnosed with ADHD, so this feels like a really relatable and important story to share. Check out the show notes for a link to see some of Bob's time management strategies. And thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

WEEK 21 | REBUILDING THE WALLS

Union Chapel Ministries

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 26, 2022 25:11

Zerubbabel: Rebuild the Temple (Ezra 1-6) Ezra: Teach the Torah (Ezra 7-10) Nehemiah: Rebuild the Walls (Nehemiah 1-3) Nehemiah was more concerned with his relationship with God, than the plan for his endeavor. Nehemiah asked for favor before provision.  Nehemiah: Faces Opposition (Nehemiah 4-7) I want to be right with God so I can do the right things with God. Ezekiel 36:24-28 24“ ‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

god spirit walls rebuilding 25i 28then

Ep 2: Parenting a Teen with Executive Dysfunction & the Growing Pains of Change